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[speaker001:] How did you get on last... week? [Peter:] Er we won two games and lost the other two. [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] Smashing. Right. Well, well not smashing that you lost two, right. Can we just get the prayer out and start by saying the prayer together please.... You haven't got it. Use use. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] Right okay. [speaker001:] [reading] Pour out your spirit upon your people and grant us a new vision of your glory, a new experience of your power, a new faithfulness to your word, a new consecration to your service, that your love may grow among us and your kingdom come. Through Christ, Our Lord. Amen. [] [Elizabeth:] Right. Now last week and on Sunday we talked about again about the seven... gifts of the Holy Spirit. Can you remember any of them? Did you do the work on Saint Stephen by the way? [Peter:] ... Er [Elizabeth:] The first martyr? [Peter:] No I don't think s no. [Elizabeth:] Have you got it from last wee the week before? [Peter:] Yeah, I think so. [Elizabeth:] You were supposed to read through it and have a look. If you want to It's at the very back, I can see it. [Peter:] Oh no. No I haven't done that.... [Elizabeth:] Right. Well i that was to sort of try and make you focus on the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we're going to receive, that we receive through... or that you have strengthened through Confirmation, rather than receiving because they're already there. They have to be already there or... it doesn't er really work. Right erm [sigh]... Can you think can you remember any of the gifts that we talked about? [Peter:] Er [Elizabeth:] I know it's a week and a half ago but.... [LAUGHTER] See what you can try. [Peter:] Is it like an anoint an erm anointing? [Elizabeth:] No the gifts that you receive or... [Peter:] Erm... No. [Elizabeth:] Do you want to get out the sheet then with the gifts on that we lo you looked at. I keep saying we looked at cos I looked at it on Sunday and [Peter:] This one? [Elizabeth:] Yes, that's [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] right. Right they're the sort of they're... the go they're good titles. [reading] Wisdom, understanding, right judgement, courage, knowledge, awe and wonder and reverence. [] They're sort of things to focus on points of focus within when you're receiving Confirmation of the ways in which through Confirmation you can enhance the gifts which you already have and focus in on the power of the Holy Spirit through those gifts.... Right. Erm... if you have a look at the the Stephen, we'll go over I think the Stephen first martyr because... without that really I think that'd be quite a good focus of... of er... for the talking about the gifts. Right. Have you read the story? Do you know the story of Stephen? [Peter:] Erm... I'm not sure. [Elizabeth:] Mm. Do you want to just quickly read it through? There's no point in me reading it out is there? Just want to read it Don't bother writing it, we'll just read [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] it and talk about it and you can write it in some other time. [Peter:] Mm.... [Elizabeth:] Read it?... [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Read it? [Peter:] Right. [Elizabeth:] Now that says [reading] Stephen was a man filled with the Holy Spirit. His death an life and death showed the power of the Holy Spirit working in him. He showed the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He sto showed the gift of what when he spoke out fearlessly? [] [Peter:] ... Erm [Elizabeth:] What would you say? Look at the [Peter:] Courage. [Elizabeth:] That's right. Or that's a good. The Stephen They're not all I mean I'm saying that's right but that some of them there are more than one answer to. But erm sometimes That that was pretty obv that's an obvious one I should say. [reading] She Stephen showed the gift of something when he preached the truth about God and the message of... Jesus. [] What would you say?... [Peter:] Right judgement. [Elizabeth:] Right judgement? Yeah.... Right and the next one then. [reading] Stephen, faced the difficult choice between life and the love of God, showed the gift of []... [Peter:] Reverence.... [Elizabeth:] Mm. Yeah it is reverent, to be reverence, yes.... [reading] Power to love God and each other as we should. [] Yeah. But... [Peter:] Right. [Elizabeth:] It it's a difficult choice between life and love of God.... Had to choose. What would you do if you're choosing? Don't you think that's more right judgement? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Because that's you know he's he's making the right choice making the right judgemen judgement. [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Right. [reading] Stephen showed the gift of what when he forgave his executioners? Even then he still loved them. [] It might not be there, there are other ones. They're just useful headings, but if you can think of something else... What would you say? Con you think of anything else? [Peter:] Understanding. [Elizabeth:] Understanding yeah. Mercy really isn't it? He showed mercy I mean he [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] showed mercy on them even though they did not show mercy on him. Right the rest of them I don't really want to go through it too much because that's... that was just to show you an example. Can you think of any... more modern day... people that you think... could inspire you and can show the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their lives? I mean Stephen is a heck of a long time ago, he's the very first martyr, and we although we celebrate his feast day still on December the twenty sixth because he is the first martyr, he's quite a long way away. Although a lot of his story is still relevant to us cos you can see it in today's life when people stand up for themselves or stand up for their faith or what they believe in and you look around you, you can see violence and being done to them. But can you think of anybody... for yourself who you could think of who... over the recently or over the in the past few centuries or closer to home have shown the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their lives?... [Peter:] Well the Prime Minister right right judgement and wisdom. [Elizabeth:] Most of the time. [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] [LAUGHTER]. [Elizabeth:] No I mean er yeah okay, fair enough. But can you think of anyone who stands out as being somebody who really does their bit and yet does it possibly with humility or... erm... I'm thinking of rather than saying sort of a general terminology of sort of Prime Ministers or what have you, erm I'm thinking if you can think of a a particular person?... [Peter:] Father Chris. [Elizabeth:] Oh I'm sure he'd be very pleased to hear that. Yeah. Smashing. Anybody a bit more famous?... [LAUGHTER]... I'm sure Father Chris would be pleased to hear that and would be very flattered to hear that as well but erm... he's erm I'm sure he does try to live by those rules because er obviously... that's one of the bases of his life but erm I was thinking more in terms of somebody who stood up for themse stood up for what they believe in... in a situation where it was difficult. Cos with the best will in the world Father Chris really doesn't face an awful lot of opposition does he? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] You know where he lives in England we're very quite a generally quite a tolerant or comparatively quite a tolerant society. Or somebody has stood up and done their best for their particular... community or somebody's stood up and done their best to Or has moved to somewhere.... Any ideas? Any suggestions? No? [LAUGHTER] Mother Theresa? [Peter:] Yeah. Mm. [Elizabeth:] Yeah? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] You know about Mother Theresa do you? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Right. Her whole... point in life is that people criticize her because she does... erm she can only actually look after a very small percentage of the people in Calcutta who need help and they all sort of say, Well she does that bit but what about the rest of them? And she says that she does what she can in her own way, she tries her best to do what she can to help. Right. Erm obviously it's not just those who are famous who show the power of the Spirit in their lives, you know everybody does. There are different ways of doing it with different people erm who do share it. There's a few examples here, Mother Theresa was one that sprung sprang to my mind when I was thinking it through. Erm [cough]... Can you show can you tell me any ways in which you I presume you know about Mother Theresa you know quite a bit about her life do you? [Peter:] I just like know she helps people in Calcutta and helps the poor in [Elizabeth:] Yeah. She does she goes out and she also goes round and... she fund raises for her own for her own er work as well. Not so much now because of ill health but she used to. She speaks out, she lets people know... what's happening. So can you tell me looking at those seven could you tell me which... you would say immediately comes to mind with Mother Theresa?... [Peter:] Understanding. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] Definitely why? How? [Peter:] Cos she understands that she's got to help God I mean people around her that are suffering. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. Any others? [Peter:] Courage to stand up for er erm what she believes in. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. Any others?... [Peter:] Right judgement. [Elizabeth:] How? [Peter:] Well she's erm... j erm... She's made a right judgement about erm... to help people and not just to sit there watching telly or something. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. So she's doing something Er it is in a difficult situation and she knows what to do. Yeah. Any others any other gifts that you think she's shown that aren't on there? [Peter:] Love for the people around her. [Elizabeth:] That's right. And through her love also she shows great respect because the people that she's dealing with are considered in Indian society to be the dregs of humanity. Indian er in India still has a very class-ridden society and er you know from the... the top caste do not even associate with the lower castes and there is a terrific there's still a terrific sense of that. I was talking to a friend of mine actually on Monday who is erm parti partially Indian and come from India and from Calcutta and she is high caste but she's a Catholic as well so she's her attitude's different she's lived in England most of her life but she can't get over the attitude of some of her relatives in India to the poor because they're lower caste. It's still there. Right. I want to just have a look at this. It's a two-part thing. Erm... it's erm this is people or stories but a based again I'm sure when y as you read through you'll probably find quite a lot of the erm little things that they're giving you here you could relate to in your own life, either for yourself or for other people that you know. Erm... if you have a look through them and then have a quick write down of what gifts you think the different ones that are mentioned in this are using. Okay?. [Peter:] Should I write down? [Elizabeth:] Yeah, write on it and see what you think. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] Sorry you can't work in pairs which is what they [LAUGHTER] did on Sunday []. I suppose you could you could work with me but er... I don't think that's quite the idea. Unless you want to just discuss it and mark it down as we're going through.... Try to think not just of those, although they can u you can use those as guidelines. Try and think of any others... that er... [Peter:] re be respect? Cos er [Elizabeth:] Yes. That's a good one.... Anything else?... [Peter:] Understanding cos [Elizabeth:] Mm. [Peter:] she understands... [Elizabeth:] Any others?... Not on there really. [Peter:] Friendship. [Elizabeth:] Yeah....... [Peter:] Courage to like... [Elizabeth:] Mm. Yeah I agree with you because it is sometimes quite difficult for somebody who's handicapped to find the courage to go out. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] If they go into town together, yeah. That's a good one. Actually I don't think that one cropped up last week on Sunday. I don't think anybody said courage for her. I think they said friendship and respect and understanding but I don't think anybody said courage. What else is Kirsty using there? [Peter:] Friendship [Elizabeth:] Friendship yeah obviously yeah.... It's a shame actually they don't say how... with cerebral palsy it can be a mild handicap or a major handicap. I mean it can be aware you can be aware of somebody with cerebral palsy having cerebral palsy and you can also be totally unaware that they have it. Yeah I agree with you. Right the second one, do you want to have a look at the second one?... [Peter:] Right judgement [Elizabeth:] Yeah I would s I would guess so or I would think so as well.... I'm not really doing that right because I mean I shouldn't agree I... What you say is right whether I [LAUGHTER] agree with it or not []. I said, Oh yes that's right [LAUGHTER] yeah, but it's not right []. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER]. [Elizabeth:] It is right but it's not that's not the whole point of this exercise. The point is for you to think decide what you think. Right. Did their form teacher use any gifts?... How could the form teacher have approached this? [Peter:] could have said... No it'll cost a lot of money or something. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. What did he actually do? [Peter:] Did she did did something about it and... [Elizabeth:] So what did the form teacher do? They came up with the idea, what did the form teacher do? [Peter:] Put it into action. [Elizabeth:] I don't think he actually d or she whichever it is... the form teacher actually did that did they? It was the two boys who s who set up put it into action. So what did the form teacher actually do? [Peter:] Gave them permission to erm [Elizabeth:] So... Yeah? [Peter:] I mean he didn't really give He was only you know just like erm... just used his authority just to say Yeah. [Elizabeth:] So what's Yeah but he could have turned round and said No, so what's he actually done? [Peter:] Understand standing [Elizabeth:] Understanding and? [Peter:] Erm... [Elizabeth:] Encouragement isn't it. I mean he's actually encouraged them, he's said, Yes okay fine, go ahead, let's sort it out, let's do something about it. Joined possibly joined in with them although it doesn't actually say. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] It says [reading] They talked to their form teacher about this and have formed a tree planting group in school []. I presume it means John and Andy have formed a tree planting group in school not the teacher. But he did use the gift of encouragement didn't he? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] And knowl er what did you say? [Peter:] Er [Elizabeth:] one you said? [Peter:] Understanding, mm. [Elizabeth:] Understanding, yeah.... What about the rest of the class? [Peter:] Did they did they join the tree [Elizabeth:] Well presumably if they started a [LAUGHTER] tr a group haven't they []. So what were they doing?... [Peter:] Erm helping. [Elizabeth:] That's right. Helping. They were encouraging again, [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] weren't they, and erm... supporting helping them and supporting them weren't they? Because they could have turned round Er they wouldn't have got as much done if there'd just been the two boys together.... Yeah? [Peter:] Mm.... [Elizabeth:] Any others?... Right okay. read it through.... What would you say what gifts is Mr Richardson Richards using [Peter:] Courage to [Elizabeth:] Courage yeah [Peter:] to [Elizabeth:] Yeah yeah that's a good one that I don't think that one came up either last time. That's really good so courage yeah what else?... He's telling stories probably about the past what is he showing?... And what will she be should we be ready to see in older people?... What about wisdom?... What do you think? That's one that struck me. [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Yeah do you agree with me or not. If you don't agree with me please say I won't be offended at all if you disagree. Because often I mean wisdom to help us to judge no not really judging is he? He is using wisdom and er his wisdom of life or knowledge of like perhaps rather than wisdom. I meant wisdom in the other meaning. Knowledge of life cos he's talking to his grandson. Telling stories. [Peter:] Erm [Elizabeth:] Right if you don't agree don't er do say please do say because if you don't agree I'd rather hear your views Yeah? Okay. Right what gifts is Mike using? [Peter:] Love [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [Peter:] because so he can just like pop in every day [Elizabeth:] Mm. [Peter:] . [Elizabeth:] Good. Anything else?... [Peter:] Understanding. [Elizabeth:] Yeah I think that's very important that one because he understands he sees the loneliness that his grandfather's feeling. He's sufficiently aware to know that er he can't get out much, he's on his own, he's lonely especially if he's not in very good health. So he can't do ou he can't go out and about. anything else? [Peter:] Right judgement cos [Elizabeth:] Mm.... What else they usually have a good laugh.... [Peter:] Friendship. [Elizabeth:] Mm yeah. They're friends aren't they. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] They usually have a good laugh sense of humour any of those. Right don't need to write all those down let's have a look at the next one then.... Right gifts is using? [Peter:] Understanding she understands.... [Elizabeth:] What else do she do?... How would you feel about standing up in front of a group of people and telling them something about I mean in her situation telling her class or even the whole what you were doing. [Peter:] I think scared. [Elizabeth:] So what's she showing there if she's [Peter:] Courage. [Elizabeth:] Yeah I think so. [Peter:] And [Elizabeth:] Some people some people it wouldn't bother but erm as she's not trained to be a speaker, she's a voluntary worker. I mean we don't whether she sort of it doesn't say whether she volunteered to go and talk to the people in the school, but even so it's quite it takes quite a lot of doing to stand up in front of a group of people you don't know and talk about the work. What gifts is the young man using?....... [Peter:] Determination to do erm [Elizabeth:] Good yeah that's a smashing one that didn't come up on Sunday either determination yeah.... What else? Anything else?... What about hope? [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] Yeah? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] There's one thing that struck me right. What gifts are Maria and Peter doing? [speaker001:] Mummy [Elizabeth:] Using? No, go away, I'm teaching, go away. [speaker001:] ? [Elizabeth:] No. Go on then yes, be back for seven o'clock.... What gifts are Maria and Peter using?... [Peter:] Helping [Elizabeth:] Helping yeah, great, helping others.... [Peter:] And supporting. [Elizabeth:] Supporting him yeah, great.... What gifts are their friends using?... [Peter:] Helping again. [Elizabeth:] Yeah.... [Peter:] Understanding and [Elizabeth:] Yeah. [Peter:] they understand that erm he needs somebody to [Elizabeth:] Yeah, yeah.... And they see the purpose for what Maria and Peter's doing aren't they and they're [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] helping. Yeah. Smashing. Right and we'll leave the other sheet for now so's you can have a look at that yourself if you would at some stage and just erm go through it. And at this poi point on Sunday we did a break and refreshment but you can forget about that cos I'm [LAUGHTER] gonna carry straight on []. Okay, is that alright? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Right okay. Now... erm... all the gifts that you give at Confirmation the whole idea of Confirmation in well one of the main ideas of Confirmation is taking on board for yourself what your parents promised for you in baptism. Yeah? And erm... the... we are given or they h one of the reasons or the purposes behind Confirmation is to give us the strength to use the gifts which God's al has already given us. And it's like the story of the... erm I think it was the servant... parable of the servant with the talents. Do you know the story I mean the parable I mean? [Peter:] No. [Elizabeth:] Well the servants three servants are given... one talent and their master tells them to... erm do with it what they could in a certain space of time and he would reward them. And one of the servants takes his one talent and he uses it and he works very hard with it and he buys erm raw goods and he makes things and he he a makes his one talent up into ten. And the second servant doesn't do quite as well,... he erm but he manages to make five talents out of his one talent. And the third servant says Well no if I if I go out and buy something something might go wrong and I'll lose the talent, and so he hides it away in the drawer. So when the master comes back and says to then What have you done with your talents? one the first servant shouts, Here, here are ten for your one, Here are five for your one, and he's very cross with the third servant because he said, What's the purpose of giving me giving you this money if all you're going to do is hide it in the drawer? And it's the same idea in Confirmation that the gifts which you are given are not given just for yourself, they're given to be used, and there's no point in keeping them to yourself, you know. They are to be used and shared with other people, and that's how one of the ways in which we live... a Christian life. We might do it amongst our family, we can do it er by you know helping within the family, you can do it by helping in the community, all sorts of different ways. You might be called to do it some other way as you get older. That's up to depends on what happens really.... Right Confirmation is a call from God. Right? You understand that idea. We call that a vocation. That word is called a vocation. I'm sure you've heard or have you heard about priests when say a priest has a vocation, a call from God? [Peter:] When they renew their erm... mm. Erm... no. Er what what's it what's it called when they renew their erm... their promise to God being a priest? [Elizabeth:] Well that's just no that's I think that's just a renewal of vows. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] But a vocation is... a call from God. Erm that's what the word means the word means a call from God. And erm... the work that you're asked to do the prop the word for it I mean we use wh wh really what I'm t teaching you now is the vocabulary that is used and which will actually be used during the service. The call from God is a vocation and the the work that you're asked to do is your mission. Erm in actual fact I don't w I work in a non-catholic school. And one of the things that erm they're talking about at the moment is making their mission statement. And that's the equivalent of our R E syllabus [LAUGHTER] in a catholic school []. But er it's a mission statement, it's the mission is the work that you're asked to do. And there's a bit of fun for you. So if we just go through these and then you can find them in the word search if you like. A call from God is a? [Peter:] Vocation. [Elizabeth:] Vocation.... God's call is a call to?... [Peter:] [LAUGHTER]... [Elizabeth:] Mission, yeah. [Peter:] mission? [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] mission []. It doesn't make sense that does it.... Yeah it's called to a miss er to mission. That's the wor that's wor that's what the word is. The work we're asked to do. Right so the word is mission for there.... Right. receive God's call Come on go through these first and then we'll do them af I'll let you do the word search. We call it the sacrament [Peter:] Bap [Elizabeth:] of... Baptism. Yeah.... Yeah.... [Peter:] ? [Elizabeth:] Yeah. And Holy and Spirit are two separate words in the word search. [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] [LAUGHTER].... [Elizabeth:] How many? [Peter:] Seven. [Elizabeth:] ... Right. Only it's not written like that in there [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] it's written in [LAUGHTER] You can do the word search Yeah I don't do you want to do the word search now? [Peter:] No I'll do it [Elizabeth:] Okay right.... Fine. Erm... now Kay actually had a big... er you know the stand she usually does [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] and erm I meant to er well she said she'd bring it back to me and then I said Well no don't bother I'll sort something out myself and then I forgot all about it. So what I'll I'll explain to you what was on there. There were pictures of... Bosnia, Ireland erm there was a picture of a little girl crying with er a friend stood next to her. There was a picture of some people being crushed in a lorry in Bosnia. And there was a picture who had fallen off one of the lorries in Bosnia erm one of the refugee lorries and was running along trying to catch up with her parents. Erm there was a picture of a starving person in Ethiopia and on top of all those there were superimposed the opposite words love, joy, peace, forgiveness, happiness. have a look at the prayer of Saint Francis now do you know the prayer of Saint Francis?... pob probably do. You might not think you do but you do. Right. Can you uh just read it through. I'll read it aloud because it does make it I think it makes it stick in your mind more. [reading] Lord make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred let me sow love. Where there is injury let me sow pardon. Where there is doubt let me sow faith. Where there is despair let me give hope. Where there is darkness let me give light and where there is sadness let me give joy. [] And obviously each word there each negative word was counteracted by a positive the opposite right. So can you choose one of those lines now, think about it for a minute and then have a look on at this. Erm and see if you can actually fill in the the ideas which are on there. Or the answer the questions which are on there. [Peter:] ... [Elizabeth:] Don't worry about it. presentation yeah but we're not doing that. Sorry I've your stopped your train of thought the haven't I.... Right. Fair enough, right. Which line did you look at? [Peter:] Erm... [reading] Where there's despair let me give hope []. [Elizabeth:] Right and the negative word is? [Peter:] Despair. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. You couldn't think of anything? [Peter:] ... [Elizabeth:] Fair enough. That's nice actually. I mean it is nice that you don't know anybody who you feel... might be despairing.... Yeah? [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] So you never felt I mean presumably you never felt that yourself and therefore and also perhaps if you've never come across Fair enough. Right what about in our country? [Peter:] The people sleeping rough in the streets. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. Good one. And in the world... going abroad? [Peter:] Erm Ethiopia starving. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. Right. Positive word is? [Peter:] Hope. [Elizabeth:] Yep. And how can you bring this positive word into the examples you gave as answers to question three? How could you bring hope in? [Peter:] Hoping that they'll have a home.... [Elizabeth:] Mm.... [Peter:] And giving aid to the people in Ethiopia. [Elizabeth:] Yeah. True. So how? [Peter:] How would which one? [Elizabeth:] Both of them. [Peter:] By [LAUGHTER] helping []. [Elizabeth:] How?... [Peter:] ... [Elizabeth:] How can you actually... how could you help people who are homeless, you?... [Peter:] could speak to them and say erm give them some encouragement to go and have a look and see if there's any hostels or something. [Elizabeth:] Mm. Giving information, yeah, that's a good one. I mean you yourself if you found out if you found some homeless people you could possibly find out where they could go. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] So... [Peter:] Erm... I could erm ask the school to collect some money for them. [Elizabeth:] Mm. That could be for both really [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] couldn't it going doing taking an active part in charity work within the school or within the community. Yeah great that's smashing. Right. Now this last one here is... called Living the Prayer and it's like the other quite a few of the others, erm but it's for you, it's not for not for us it's not to be shared. But it is just to try and ask you to think... ways in which you could help in this particular way in whichever way there is. [517 1] So... [reading] Today I brought [] and there's an example here [reading] Today I brought joy where there was sadness by cheering up a friend who was fed up. Very simple thing to do and something you possibly would do without even thinking about it. And now we're asking you to focus in... on ways in which you could live the prayer of Saint Francis. Right? For a week. Now if y I mean if you do it you do it and that's it's up to you, but because nobody else will look at it. But to be honest it is a good way of focusing in on what you what we've been talking about tonight and if you can I think it would be worthwhile doing as part of your preparation to help you to think. Cos it i it shouldn't just be your preparation should not just be a one-off hour hour and a half what have you on the Sundays when you come along. Because if you if you if that's all it is then you're just going through the motions, you're not actually going ahead and receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation. I don't feel that it is with any of you. But erm you know that's up to you er you're the only person who knows that. Right, can we actually have a look now the last bit is sort of more the... nitty gritty before we go on to this. Next Sunday is the at the ten thirty mass is the Celebration of Election. Right. Between now and Sunday it's down to you to decide that you definitely want to go ahead and be confirmed. At the Celebration of Enrolment you said Right yes, well I'm prepared to take part in the preparation programme. Now this next Sunday you're preparing and saying Yes I definitely want to go ahead and be confirmed. And it it should be your decision. Erm I know it's easier said than done sometimes but er it has to be your decision because even if you went ahead and were confirmed, we were tal talking about the idea of sometimes parents bring pressure on them on you to go ahead and do it and be confirmed, erm when perhaps you're not don't feel ready for it and it takes a lot of courage to stand up and say No I'm not ready. But if you feel ready, fine, if you don't feel ready, then even if you go ahead it won't be valid. It won't be worth anything because it won't have meant anything to you. Unless it means something to you it's not really much point. Erm that's the negative side. The positive side is obviously if you go ahead with the Celebration of Election, smashing. What happens in the Celebration is of Election is that the erm it happens at the end of mass I think or round the end of mass. I think it's after Communion. The priest asks the catechists or one of the catechists to represent the four of us erm to decide whether we feel you're ready for Confirmation, which we all have no hesitation in saying yes to with all this particular group. Erm then he asks the candidates er Do you sincerely want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation? and you stand when he calls out your name, hell call out you names, yeah? Kay did this bit on Sunday and I'm not too sure about it, yeah. The catechist will read out in the same way as we did for the Celebration of Enrolment, erm whichever catechist is doing will say I present to you and call out a name, and you stand up in your seat with your parents. Now are you are you erm on the altar on Sunday? [Peter:] No I was going to stay down. [Elizabeth:] Right. Well you just stand up in your row by your parents and you don't go don't come out onto the front or anything, just stand up when your name's called, and then he addresses you and says, [reading] Do you sincerely want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation? [] and you say, [reading] I do. Do you understand that through this sacrament God is calling you to become witnesses to Christ? I do. [] [LAUGHTER] Difficult aren't they. [reading] Do you want to follow Lord Jesus by living lives of loving service to God and to all God's people? [] and you say, [reading] I do. [] [LAUGHTER] And the he says, [reading] Let us bless the Lord. [] and you answer, [reading] Thanks be to God. [] Then he asks the community, because although they might not all have seemed to have been involved there's been a lot of people praying for you and [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] you are part of the community. And then he will address you again. But knowing Father er Chris and then apart from the We everybody says the answers there it's all thanks be to God and amen amen amen amen, I think we're actually gonna have some copies, I don't know,... ready for you. So that's next Sunday. Erm you've got your letter about the following Sunday didn't you? [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Right. Any queries questions or what have you about that? [Peter:] Erm... do you kn how much erm contribut erm [Elizabeth:] Well that's up to you and your parents. [Peter:] Mm mm. [Elizabeth:] That's really up to your parents. Erm... If it's if you want some kind of a guideline I think last year... I can't remember but I think we I think last year we actually had to ask because the parish couldn't support it totally. Erm this year the parish has said they'll pay for it and any contributions will be [LAUGHTER] gratefully received [] and I think it was three pound last year. But I can't remember. [Peter:] Mm. [Elizabeth:] So that just gives you some idea and it's up to your parents if they want to. But don't feel pressured to contribute you know cos it's something... Right er... don't think there's anything else. You've got the letter, you've got all that. Right so next Sunday is the ten thirty mass for everybody.... [Peter:] Yeah. [Elizabeth:] Okay? [Peter:] Okay. [Elizabeth:] Right can we just we'll finish off with a prayer.... Do you want to say the prayer of Saint Francis? [Peter:] Okay. [Elizabeth:] When we get round to it. I'll tell you when. [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] [Elizabeth:] [LAUGHTER] [tape ends]

[speaker001:] Anybody been here before?... No. Okay, excellent, so you don't know what's going to happen? No? Okay brilliant. Well what do you think ARC stands for then? Have you been told this? No. [Toby:] Say that again? Okay. It's archaeological's the first word. Well the second two [speaker001:] Resource centre. [Toby:] resource centre okay. Archaeological Resource Centre. So what do archaeologists actually do then? Any idea? Yes,. [speaker001:] Look for bones and things. [Toby:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Look for bones and that. [Toby:] Look for bones, okay. What else do we look for? [speaker001:] Erm old things from the Romans. [Toby:] Ro Rom Roman stuff, okay. What kind of things do you think? We've got we've got bones is one good one. Yeah? [speaker001:] Bowls. [Toby:] Bowls,potter pottery yeah. pottery's another one. And what's another one? [speaker001:] Coins. [Toby:] Coins maybe. [speaker001:] Fossils. [Toby:] Fossils, that's really palaeotology, that's to do with dinosaurs and that kind of thing. We're involved with people, okay? ? Well china, pottery, bowls all the same kind of thing. Buildings, brilliant. Okay they're the main three. We've got pottery, we've got bones, we've got buildings, okay. So you might want to remember that when you get in there cos on the first exhibit you're gonna t have to use that bit of information. Okay. Right what other things do you think we might dig up? They're the main three. We've had coins as one.... What else?... Think of some everyday things that... you probably don't even think of. Pardon? Okay maybe. What else? [speaker001:] . Weapons. [Toby:] Weapons possibly, depending on what period. [speaker001:] Clothes. [Toby:] Clothes, brilliant. Okay we find quite a few clothes bits of leather, shoes, stuff like that, okay. That's another exhibit that's gonna be in there, you'll be able to have a go at making a shoe. Right. Okay, we've got these three kinds of building these materials, okay. We've got bones, we've got pottery and we've got building material. Right what do you think happens to them once we've found it? We've dug it out the ground. What's the next thing that's going to happen to it. Yeah? [speaker001:] Clean them. [Toby:] Clean them, okay. What with?... [speaker001:] Brush. [Toby:] A brush and what else?... Well w we've got the we've got the the object, we've got a brush what kind of liquid thing? Are we gonna use bleach or what? [speaker001:] water. [Toby:] Water, okay. Brush and water that'll do. Okay, right so we've cleaned it, now what we gonna do? [speaker001:] put it in. [Toby:] Yeah we're gonna have to dry it first, okay. We've got a wet wet object. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Toby:] Right okay. At the moment we've got these piles of washed finds here. We've got building materials, shells, bones all sorts all mixed together. What do you think we might do before we send it off? Sort them out okay. And that's what you're gonna do as soon as you get in there, that's your first activity. You're gonna be given... [speaker001:] Toby because they're late... they'll have to miss the video. [Toby:] Oh. Right well okay. [speaker001:] Cos the other group are here already, they're here on time. [Toby:] Right-oh. [speaker001:] So erm [Toby:] We'll the talk's nearly finished anyway. [speaker001:] Okay. [Toby:] Okay. Right, sorry about that. Right, okay, we've sorted them out.... That's what you're gonna do, you're gonna be given a pile full of bits of rubble, shells, all sorts, and you've got to sort them out to different piles. Okay? Right. So what happens after we've sorted them out? So we've got a pile of bones, a pile of building material,... lumps of wood, what do you think we might do to them next? Okay yeah, we might preserve them.... And then what?... We've got thi we've got these this lump of bone okay, we don't know what it is, what we gonna do with it? Okay. We might study it,... but... more likely? Do you think people who are digging all these bits up are going to know everything about all the things... they've dug up? [speaker001:] Yes. [Toby:] Well they might not because there are people I mean like me students who might not. Okay so... what what who do you think we could send them to to tell us what we want to know about them? Where could we send them? We could send them off to a university or something like that so the. Okay? Right, so we do that, send it off. And so we get this thing back erm and we find out it's a sheep bone and it's from about the age of the Vikings. What can we tell from those two bits of information? [speaker001:] It's old. [Toby:] It's old, yeah. Okay. [speaker001:] It's an animal. It's from an animal. [Toby:] It's from an animal. But more importantly we can tell the Vikings had sheep, okay? So I mean from a couple of bits of information we could tell they had sheep, they probably ate them, teeth marks on it, things like that. Okay. Right. If you want to How many have we got here? If you get into threes I think. [speaker001:] How how many have we got altogether? I think there's too many to do the actually er... [Toby:] Well if we get them into threes [speaker001:] Toby. [Toby:] and then the rest can do [speaker001:] Yeah. Right. [break in recording] [many voices in background] [Toby:] Welcome to the Archaeological Resource Centre. Sorry about the delay,... but the the school in front of you were... nearly half an hour late. Thank you very much for turning up on time. Now so welcome to the ARC. Now the ARC A R C. What does that stand for? Who can tell me? Yeah? [speaker001:] Archaeological Resource Centre. [Toby:] Archaeological Resource Centre, yes, good. Now I'm somebody now I'm gonna pretend I don't know anything about this. I probably know what resource means and what centre means, what does archaeology mean? [speaker001:] find things study them. [Toby:] We find things that we study yes.... What sort of things? Where do you find these things? [Andrew:] Underground, good, yes. And how do we find them?... Yeah? [speaker001:] can dig down. [Andrew:] We can dig down to find them, yes, good. Now some archaeologists dig down to find things, others study things that are above ground. Things like this building. Now you were standing over the road for five minutes unfortunately, but I hope during that time some of you used your eyes. What sort of building was it before it became a museum? [Toby:] A church. Yes, good. Which part of the church are we in now?... Which part of the church? What's up here? Can anybody see? Yeah? The tower. Yes, good. We're in the bottom of the tower so, what do you think that was?... That's right, yes. That's a door, you go through the door there, there's a staircase that goes upstairs. Now we can't let you go upstairs but later on you'll see the room up above here and you can see where that goes to. Yes good. So the reason I asked that question is because I wanted to see if you were already thinking like an archaeologist. Cos an archaeologist is somebody who looks for clues. Like that clue.... Anything else that you noticed when you were on the other side of the road?... Yes well the rest is all modern cos this used to be a church but then it was turned into a museum, it's now a museum. You can see some of the old things. When you're inside there if you look right at the far end you'll see one of the old windows, a beautiful old window that's five hundred years old. So keep your eyes open when you're going through. Good. So.... Now some of the archaeologists dig, some look at old buildings like this, but there's lots of other jobs that archaeologists do. So what we've done we've made a film just to show you all the different jobs that archaeologists do. And some of you'll be quite surprised at some of the things you'll see. Right so any more questions before we see the film? Good. Now when the film's over I've got one or two more questions to ask you so I want you to watch very carefully and listen very carefully as we go through the film.... [filmed presentation 430]... Well it's good. Right. S so... apart from digging and researching and looking at old buildings, what other jobs do archaeologists do? Yes? yes? Yes, good. They do. Er they put the pieces back to where they used to be. You saw in fact the lady as you came in about the same time as you came in who does that. Put the pieces back to make the pots. Yes because we very rarely find a whole pot. Usually what's happened is somebody's been doing the cooking, dropped the pot on the floor, and all the pieces have been thrown away. And one of the jobs we're gonna give you to do we're gonna give you one little piece of a pot and a picture and you have to try and work out which pot that the little pieces came from. Yes good, that's one thing we do, put the pieces back together again. Yeah? Yes, good. They look at them through microscopes just to find out what they're made of. Yeah? Yes, take pictures and draw sketches. Yes good, cos everything that we do has to be very careful recorded and taking the photographs and doing the the drawings and sketches that's one of the ways of recording. How else do we record? Now there was a lady who was working in the site and she was doing this... with her hand. What was she doing? Yes? Yes, good. She had a computer actually on the it was on the side of a surveying instrument, so she was probably working out how far down she'd actually dug by looking through the sights and reading the numbers and then she was entering up the numbers on the computer. Yes, good. Now also on the site working there was a man kneeling down like this,... and he had a black beard, Don't haven't got the question yet. And a trowel and he was trowelling away. What did he have on his head?... Yes? He had a helmet called a hard hat. Does anybody know why?... Yes? Cos something might fall on his head, yes, and he's also he's working on a building site and that's the normal regulations. Safety rule regulations have to have a hat on your head. Now as he was digging he was finding things. What was he doing with the things that he was finding?... Yes, good. Well it wasn't actually a box. Did anybody notice what was it? It was a? No. Somebody else was doing the washing. What he was putting them in a? It wasn't a bucket. It was a tray, a black plastic garden seed tray that we call a finds tray, and all then things he was finding he was putting them in there. Now at the end of the day the finds trays come here and all the finds are washed and dried, and there's somebody called a finds assistant. A find assistant's job is to sort them out into different types of materials. That's gonna be your first job here today as archaeologists. Right we're going to give you a tray and ask you to sort the finds out. They're all things that have been found in York.... Right, are there any questions before we start? Yeah? Yes, good. A R C is superimposed into the film. Yes, good, fine. Any other questions? Now when you go through most of the things that you will see you can touch, but there are things up on the shelves at the sides and we put them there for special reasons, usually cos they're very heavy or cos they might break easily. Now if you want to see something that's up on a shelf at the side, ask one of the helpers wearing a red jersey and they'll take it down for you and show it to you. If you get stuck, anything you don't understand, anything you want to know, ask somebody with a red jersey and if they know the answer they'll tell you. Right, if they don't they won't. Now... upstairs there are people working, so when you get to the far end we ask you don't go straight upstairs, if you can wait please and we'll... we'll we'll all you'll all go up in the room together,. Right so how many have we got altogether? [speaker001:] Thirty one. [Toby:] Thirty one.... Okay. [speaker001:] But we're in er groups of... five.... [Toby:] So... for the first activity you'll need to be in twos or threes. So what I'm gonna ask you to do in a minute is to line up in threes. So if I can just come through here.... I think there might be a parcel for you at the door is it? [Andrew:] For me? [Toby:] It's from. [break in recording] [Derek:] Yeah that's it. That's right. Okay step back.... Yeah. Right I'll tell you in a minute. Right.... Sh.... Right. Now if you look in front of you you'll all see little a green tray with lots of objects.... a lot of the people that work here are archaeologists and for the day we want you lot to pretend that you're archaeologists as well. Right, can you do that? Right now the first job that we want you to do is to help us to sort out some of the things. Now sometimes when archaeologists carry out the work they have to get in and out of a site really quickly. Now all they have time to do when they're working on the site is to put them in the trays and wash them. So you can see that none of these have got any mud on them or anything like that. Now if you all want to pick one object from the tray.... Right. Now tell me what what you've got one at a time, starting at this end. Yeah? [speaker001:] Bone. [Derek:] Yeah? No not stone. We call that we classify that under building material. Bone, yeah? Yeah? Bone, yeah that's right. Do you what that is? Bone, that's right. Shell, that's right. Pottery, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bone yeah. Bone. Pottery, that one. Yeah. Bone. Building materials. Bone. Bone. Yeah. [speaker001:] [yawn] [Derek:] Yeah, well done. That's right. Right. Now quite a lot of you picked a piece of bone didn't you. Right. picked pottery, some of you got building material, this lad here and... someone round there, right, and a couple of you picked a piece of shell. Now they're the four things that you'll find in your tray. So do you want to take e each object out one at a time and then put it on the table in the categories so you've got one pile of bones. [Toby:] No that's a piece of tooth. Yeah that's right. [speaker001:] [break in recording] [Derek:] Right now listen. Stop what you're doing a minute. Right. Now if you look in your tray you'll see a label with a number on. Right?... Now... it's quite important this label, and I want you to copy down this number onto one of these labels, one for each category. Now before you do that, Don't do it yet. I want I'm gonna explain what this number is, right. Now if you look at the first four figures there, does anybody want to have a guess at what those first four figures mean? Yeah? [speaker001:] When they found them. [Derek:] That's right, that's the year the excavation took place. Now does anyone have want to have a guess what the next number might mean? Now it's nothing to do with the day or the time or the months or the week or anything like that. Yeah? No. No. Yeah? Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. Right. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Right well I'll tell you. [speaker001:] I've got I've got one. [Derek:] Yeah? No. I've been having some quite intelligent guesses but no one 's hit the nail on the head. This is the number of the site. cos each site... has a number and could you have a guess at how many excavations? Yes? More than seven. This one's number seven and this one was in nineteen eighty eight.... [speaker001:] Ten.... [Derek:] More than that. More than that. a guess? More than nineteen. Yeah. More than er twenty two. Yeah? No not that many. Yeah? Higher. Yeah? Yeah? That's right. Not far off a hundred sixty. Well done.... Right. Now what about the number in this box then? The first number there of the two. Now the last number is the number of the site, any ideas what number that might be? Right something that nobody's said yet, so I'll give you a bit of a clue. When you when archaeologists carry out the dig they don't dig up the whole site. Now what do they do? Yeah? [speaker001:] Er do they put them into boxes? [Derek:] Not... not quite. [speaker001:] Do they have a special kind of ring round [Derek:] Well I don't think anyone's gonna get this so I'll tell you. When you dig when you carry out the digging on the a site you dig trenches. Right? So they dig a trench right down and this is the number of the trench. Then the last number, which someone said earlier, is the number of the layer in the ground. Right. So do you want to copy this number down onto one label for each category and then put them into a bag... and then... But before Now wait a minute, wait a minute.... Now before... before you put them into the bag I will check them, right?... Yeah just out all those numbers on there.... Right. [break in recording] [Toby:] ... So that's a fish's backbone a vertebra, so that would go in there. [speaker001:] What's that? Excuse me is this your group here or [Andrew:] No, no I'm [speaker001:] [break in recording] [Toby:] There is a nearer one to you there. [LAUGHTER]... This is for real, this is a bit of real archaeology. they really do get used.... It's from a stone age and it's between four and five thousand years old. [speaker001:] [break in recording] [Toby:] Guess what it is. It's not a rock. Well it was it is rock but it it was something else, it was a bone. No a f a fossil is something that's been turned to stone in the ground. You're thinking of a fossil as being an ammonite a curly one, yeah. But that's a a fossil is anything that's turned to stone. That's three quarters of a million years old. And the animal it was from would have stood about the height of that balcony. Well you find them in Africa and India these days. No. An elephant. That's from a prehistoric elephant. They were colossal animals. The mammoth you mean? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Toby:] No that's a warm. A mammoth was a cold climate.... That's from a warm climate.... Mammoths were around till... fairly recently [speaker005:] That's right. It comes from real bees. You know when they make honey? They make a honeycomb out of wax? Do you see that? Well when we take the honey away and we get the wax left over we can make it into lumps. and if you'd just like to try try it on. at one end put the thumb down put it on the wax and put the thumb over the top and pull pull it along.... Like that. Well done, that's right.... So you're catching the right amount of wax onto the outside of the thread. Isn't that good? And then in the air it stiffens very slightly as it cools down, but I think on a nice warm day like this is might be. So you've [cough] you've got a slightly stiffer end which gum gums it together, so it doesn't.... now you do some lacing. Can you see them? Do you think you can follow those? Mm I think if you try and do it... here, so you make it into a shoe shape, you curl it all up into a shoe shape, where do you think it's going to go? There, it is, that's right.... Ah. It's a sort of That's right push it through the hole and catch it at the other side. That's right, yeah.... You've got it. Aha. And you can just pull it so that it flattens. That's right yes. And then you have to pull it pull it tight. Aha. Nearly right. And then if you pull it together it'll pull together. [speaker006:] Follow me all the way round and we have Emma here who is erm who Just keep on flooding round everybody and have a tray each.... Erm... So everybody just come round to here. [speaker007:] . [speaker006:] Yeah. Okay. Now we will run out of trays so if the people who haven't got a tray... would like to go on. If I could just introduce for you, this is Emma who is a erm experienced archaeologist who's with us on a three-month placement, and she will take people through this. If there's anybody who can't fit in here, there are one or two places round here, we you can er flood onto these activities here to start off and then swap round back again.... So over to you Emma. [speaker007:] Has everybody got er... a tray or sight of a tray? [Emma:] Right.... Okay... Well and you've seen the video so you'll be aware of the sort of things that we do here. And this is an introduction to look really you'll experience of the work of archaeologists. And... it's these finds in the trays are actually real archaeological finds from real sites in York. And they're what we call bulk finds. Er they're the sort of things that if you were if you were digging on a site you'd find these every day, you'd find an awful lots of them, er and they're really what the people of the time think of as rubbish. You know broken pot, throw it away. They're but we do. So in these trays you've actually got erm quite a variety of of material. You've got pottery, you've got building material such as tile lumps of plaster around somewhere as well, erm shell, bone, all sorts of things, okay. So what actually happens, these are taken off-site and they're washed but they're not sorted. And this is the first job that we have to do really, is to sort them out into their different categories. So you can just sort of take them out and put them on your desk, all the bone erm all the pottery.... I'll just tell you about this... Can I just tell you about this just for a minute? Cos this is quite this is quite important, okay. Right. If... you just... pick up a sherd of pottery, okay, that really by itself can't tell you an awful lot. I mean we can say what it's made of and we might be able to make a guess at how old it is. But if you don't know where it's come from it really isn't as much use. That's where these labels come in, okay. Now these actually each each tray should have one and they actually tell you where the stuff comes from. So here the first number, in this case nineteen eighty nine, is the date that the site was dug. Okay. The next number is the site code.... in this case it's number four. Erm all the all the sites are are given a code what that that one actually is. Now this next number in the box is the layer number. Okay, so we know exactly where these things come from. So then you we can tighten in on the site to not only a place actually on the site but how far down they came from as well. When y when you're dealing with seventeen feet of strata as in York, you n [LAUGHTER] you need to know where it's come from []. Okay. So I'll tell you I'll tell you what to do with those in a minute but if y at the moment if you'd just like to have a go at sorting it out. If you've got any questions please ask me, I'll try and answer them. [speaker007:] When you've finished sorting them into... their piles, the next job is to put each pile into a separate bag, so that you would put all your bones into one bag, all your pottery into another. So these are now ready to go off to the specialists, okay. So... what you have to do then... [speaker001:] Sh. Sh. Sh. [speaker007:] Hang on. [speaker001:] Sh. Sh. Sh. Sh. Hush. [speaker007:] Right. Okay can you all I'm sorry I was talking to the study group. Did you all get the bit the bit about? [speaker001:] No. No No. [speaker007:] No? Alright okay. Erm... when you've finished sorting them out into their little piles, if you'd like to then put each little each pile into a separate bag, so all your bones would go into one pile er... one bag, erm all your pottery into another bag, and then this is where the label comes in. This is wh this is where the label is important. Because for each bag... could you [speaker001:] Can we take them home then with us? [speaker007:] write a copy [Andrew:] Don't think so. [speaker007:] of the label, okay so that we can actually and put it actually in the bag, so that when these things go off as they would do to their to the the various specialists who actually know more about pottery know more about bones and can do a more detailed analysis, still know where they're from. Okay? [speaker001:] You're gonna trust me to do this? [LAUGHTER]. [speaker006:] Now now if I can say a little bit about the building to you. The er buil the building is erm the oldest fabric here is the tower, erm which from the er window the style of the tracery is clearly fifteenth century in origin. And also the main east window is also fifteenth century. Now much of the rest of the stone of the building also dates from the medieval period but in fact in the nineteenth century the building er was very popular as a church and the vicar at the time decided that what he needed was more [LAUGHTER] space [] and so they knocked down virtually the whole building apart from the tower and the east erm erm window and rebuilt it to put in the er gallery at the level that we're standing here. So and you can see this quite clearly if you look at the arches. You see that arch there? That is an is an original height of the arch cos that arch is keyed into the main arch of the tower. But if you look at the next one you see the arches er all the the other arches are have been raised about er a metre, and that was done deliberately to get the extra height on the outside wall so that they could put erm a er er higher roof in for the the knave and for the the aisle so that they could ge make it a bigger space. So as a result of that because it's been erm changed in the nineteenth century the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties, architectural historians who we who were faced with a real problem with York cos York had something like... fifty medieval churches and erm er about thirty of them surviving into into the twentieth century, erm and they had to make some decisions about which ones to preserve and which ones to let go. And this building was one that was allowed to deteriorate because of all this Victorian change. But for us as archaeologists it's a er it's wonderful because it shows change and that's what archaeology is all about, the the influence of humans on place or landscape or or whatever it may be wherever you are. So it's a particularly wonderful thing for us. And now that we've started to look after the building we've actually discovered some very exciting and interesting small clues about the building. If you look up there for example, can you see the row of heads supporting the beams, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] there and on the other side? Well they're they're those those are from the the style the art style of the heads they are very highly dateable. They're quite clearly twelfth century in date, they're Norman like er er William William the Conqueror, that sort of kind of period. Twelfth century eleventh twelfth century date. And that's a table that would originally have been placed outside, and those heads are basically... designed to scare away evil spirits. But what er what happened is when they rebuilt this building in the fifteenth century the masons found these and reused them reset them inside because they'd lost their significance in over the three hundred years, so but they were useful structural er things. So that shows su suggests that there's twelfth century fabric in this building. And there are other clues. If you look very carefully at the stones you can see erm can you see that some of the stones have got diagonal markings all over them? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker006:] Okay? And if you if you compare those diagonal markings with the sorts of markings on on er some of these other stones, these these are a bit diagonal but if you look carefully they go there're some going in that direction and some are going that direction. The tooling on on stones changes through time as as masons change their techniques, and er this is fifteenth century tooling, but that is twelfth century tooling. If you er you have to get up close to look at these features carefully, but it shows very clearly that there's a lot of twelfth century stone incorporated in the building. And that all if you put this together with the documents that we know, it suggests that there was a twelfth century church here which was demolished and then rebuilt in the fifteenth century. And in fact there are even more [LAUGHTER] subtle [] things than that you can find if you look carefully at Oh I might er I think that we might go out into the garden and I'll show you one or two other features out there that are er even more er interesting and er er exciting. But anyhow have you if you have a look here there's erm er the... er er I think we ought to be thinking about er [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] er moving on. Do you think that is about right? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] So if you'd like to go down the stairs there there are some coats oh your coats and things and I will er go and come and join you and we'll we'll take off and look at the outside. [speaker001:] If I may ask you about the window? [speaker006:] Oh sure. [speaker001:] rebuild er every fifty or a hundred years or whatever? [speaker006:] N no I don't think so. I think these these are fifteenth century. I think they're fifteenth century they they they they are they're well cut and they're well The g the glass? Er the glass the glass itself is replacement. Oh sorry, the glass itself is replacement. There but there are some traces of fifteenth century glass up there. Do you see the little coloured arrows in those? Those are fifteenth century glass. That survives. Glass will survive. What happens is that although it does tend to decay it builds a crust on the outside that stops it eroding. So you will be looking at er glass erm here and elsewhere that is really very ancient. Not no not well you know just like ordinary glass. I mean it's it's a fairly fairly imp er er permanent material. You can get Roman glass for example Roman glass f erm pottery erm glass vessels erm which are incredibly thin, the the glass is as thin as light bulbs, and that survives erm two thousand years. So we're only asking for five hundred years. Oh does it? Oh you do you work in it do you? Oh right. Yeah. Okay well I'll well I'll just get my coat and come with you. [speaker001:] [break in recording]... [speaker006:] huge number of people died in... childbirth and in er as infants. A lot of women dialled giving died giving birth [speaker001:] Childbirth? [speaker006:] erm but there were er a small number of people who managed to make it to good old healthy seventies eighties. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] But there is er not not many. Right... We've a a man with a bicycle trying to get through so er I think if you if you [speaker001:] That's alright. [speaker006:] come through on the grass that okay? [speaker001:] Oh yeah that's [speaker006:] ... Have we got everybody? I noticed there a young man what's he called Richard is he? [speaker001:] No,. [speaker006:] Patrick? [speaker001:] No. [speaker006:] Robert? [speaker001:] Mike? Michael. [speaker006:] Michael. [speaker001:] Mike. [speaker006:] Michael. Michael. He's he's not come yet so erm... Perhaps while while we're waiting for the others I'll just say a few words about the building, because erm from out here you can see er quite clearly that the central portion of the building is the oldest erm from if you look at the state of the stonework. Er particularly if you look just at the ordinary wall fronts the front wall the stones are very much more heavily eroded there than they are on this this the aisle here. And er if you look also at the way that the stones fit together they're ve they fit together very neatly on the aisle where by the small window whereas the central part of the church there's much more mortar between the joints. So those are very good indications for for later building. But there is in fact a very interesting er story archaeological story which we can deduce from the outside of this building. And I'd like to erm try and get you all to see what you can tell by simply observing the building, and I'd like to concentrate if we may on the central part of the building, because there are a number of changes that have been made to that building erm which tell a story. And one of the things that archaeologists do all their time is try by looking at the evidence, whether it's stuff that comes from the ground, landscapes or old buildings, to try and understand the changes that have happened through time, to see things that were there that have gone, and to to work out what [end of tape] in the erm Victorian period the stone was far so far rotted they inserted some new stones there. Yeah? Anything else, yeah? Little holes in That's excellent. Why do you think they've got those little chips in them? [speaker001:] To plaster over? [speaker006:] Plaster over, brilliant. Now that's a very important clue that you've spotted. Brilliant. Now what I want you to do No this is getting very exciting to me. I'm ve I this is the first time it's happened this way round that anybody's got That's the most subtle clue and somebody's spotted it. I think it's wonderful. So what I want you to do is to follow these little chips er dimples here, they're on this stone there're a few on that but not on here, so that bit it goes in that direction. They're on here, they're on here, a few there, they're up there, but they don't go any higher than that. I'd like you to look along and see if they go to that line and stop and they g you can see some over here. See how far you can trace them along there. See how far you can go. See how far. How far do they go? Come on, how far? Here, yeah and h how far along? Three. Oh No. How fa how far how far up do they go? What's the highest you find them? [speaker001:] Up to the window. [speaker006:] Okay, up to there. So o so there was once a plastered surface across there, okay? [speaker001:] Was it painted? [speaker006:] Er it may have been but you can't we haven't got much evidence for that. Er er well that that bit you're go you're jumping too fast. Now what other changes are there? What other changes? Er er let's erm Have a look at this here, look at this here. [speaker001:] Smoothness. [speaker006:] What? [speaker001:] The smoothness. [speaker006:] Smoothness, yeah, yeah so that's a new stone, there's a very new stone. That was we put that one in in about nineteen eighty six that one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Erm but this this this doorway, does this doorway look as though it's always been here? [speaker001:] No. [speaker006:] Why not? [speaker001:] Cos the stones are sm are are little there while [speaker006:] If you look at the w if you look around the windows you'll always get a drip course. This has not got a drip course, you know? You look even over there on that building there's above the window there's a drip course, by the doorway, is a drip course for the rain coming down dripping off. [speaker001:] Oh yeah! [speaker006:] This has not got a drip course. Okay? And if you also look the most the the the clearest change that's happened on the outside of this building, if you look at that window, if you if you follow the edge of the window the original window came all the way down... to this point, and then across and up, and this has been all blocked up. Okay? So and this doorway has been inserted that close to the corner of the window. That's you know any any architect'll tell you that's just wild, that's just ridiculous, it's very dangerous to put a doorway so close to the corner of a window. You have much more maintenance. So what we know is that this must have been blocked up before this doorway was inserted, okay? So what you have got here is an a blocked up window an inserted doorway and a plastered surface. Now if you can put all those three pieces of evidence together what does that suggest to you?... H er why would the people want to do that in a church? Plaster an outside of a wall with no so er with no drip course so this must have been an?... This must have been an internal wall at one point. [speaker001:] There was a room out here? [speaker006:] Exactly. Exactly. There was once a vestry built out here, and er this doorway was put in so that the vicar could get into the vestry to change his clothes. And that building has gone. It's no longer here. But by looking at the clues of the building we can see that it was there. And that's the sort of thing archaeologists are doing all the time. That's what we're trying to do all You know that's that's that's just our job, that's how we're we're looking at buildings. Now what is particularly interesting is if you take that and you try and date when these various things were done, and if I ask questions why was it done like this. And it was done like this, this was done at a period when this church was changing from a Roman Catholic church The the window the original glass in this was a massive stained glass window of the crucifixion, and that had been put there in the fifteenth century by a Lord Mayor of York who was very wealthy and very religious and he wanted to show how wealthy and religious he was by pu er donating this window to the church. But... England ceased to become a Catholic er country and we had the Reformation and the emphasis changed from people looking at these spectacular coloured windows to learn about the Bible bec er and people started to read, literacy came in. And the whole style in churches changed. They started to put up big screens behind the altar blocking off some of the stained glass and writing on those big screens the Creed or the Lord's Prayer in English, which was done in the seventeenth and eighteenth century. And that was the time when this was all done. So the archaeology of the building and the architectural history are reflecting big changes in what people were thinking, how people were erm what they believed their belief systems. But erm and it's all here for us to see, [shouting] if []... you have the eyes and the detective and the persistence and the research to pick all these little details out. And so that I hope that I hope you find that interesting. [speaker001:] But the plastered wall's been inside? [speaker006:] Yes, exactly. This was a this was plastered so it'd be be a ni nice inside wall for inside of the vestry. And this this we see, it's er quite interesting, this you notice this bit here is not plastered, and this has not got these dimples, so we think that what actually happened is when they first did this the the the the this bit of the window was blocked up with wood or wattle and daub or something like that, and so it was a a a and then when then when the vestry came down this these stones were put in here to block it up again. So this is that's why these don't have the dimples on them, whereas they should have done if they'd You see so there's al there's incredibly subtle things that you can you can pick up. Now I wanted to tell you a little bit too before we leave about one of the ARC publications that may be of interest to those of you who are self-propelled. Erm we've produced a little guide called the Time Traveller's Guide to York, which consists of four archaeological walks of the city. And erm each one begins here at the Archaeological Resource Centre and takes you through alleyways and back passages explains, where to go er with drawings text and explains it all. One of the Romans city, so you can pick out some Roman traces, one of the erm the er er Viking city, one of what happened in the Norman period the eleventh century, time of William the Conqueror and the two castles and the big er erm abbeys he put up, and finally the medieval city. And this you can purchase for two pounds ninety nine from here or lots of other shops. I thought I'd give you that opportunity cos it is a little ARC publication, it's one that we er So so if you want it. So I I've got that with me but I've what what what we'll do now is we'll start to erm make our way towards coffee, which I think might be welcome. Er er am I right? you c you couldn't be more right. Okay, let's er this way then. Okay. [tape ends]

[speaker001:] Right can you have a look... at those... Just have at the answers to this. Did you find any difficulties at all? [speaker002:] N no I don't. [Malcolm:] It looks all right from here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Keep the tracing paper if you need it.... That's all right.... yes that's okay that's fine.... [sucks teeth] Hang on.... Oh yes alright from there.... How did you come to that conclusion? [speaker002:] What? [Malcolm:] the petrol station... the petrol station, isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. Mm five minutes. [Malcolm:] It's five minutes and fifteen. I misread the. That's okay. [reading] in the first fifteen minutes of the journey []... Yeah er... [tut]... What's fifteen minutes... as part of an hour? [speaker002:] Quarter of a hour. [Malcolm:] Quarter of an hour. ... That's point two five. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] You can't [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] You can't have time as a decimal, time is not a decimal. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Okay? I can't remember what it's called it's in sixties whatever that is. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Malcolm:] Yeah. S Time is not a decimal so you can't operate time as a decimal. Nobody ever used to make that mistake at one time you know why? [speaker002:] No. [Malcolm:] Because everything worked was wasn't in decimal. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] All the distances were in twelves [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] and for and weights were in fourteens so [speaker002:] Aha. [Malcolm:] nobody ever thought about anything being a decimal. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Malcolm:] So nobody had any problems with that. No of course that everything's de- you know everything's decimal time [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] becomes quite an awkward calculation. It didn't used to be. It didn't. [reading] not been interrupted. same constant speed. [] So you work the same the constant speed. [speaker002:] . [Malcolm:] Yeah w shouldn't matter, [speaker002:] yeah. [Malcolm:] that's fine. [speaker002:] Aha. [Malcolm:] Doesn't make any difference at all that doesn't. Erm so you would have done... er yeah then you've got You've got your speed of distance over time correctly. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Or time is distance over speed. It's all right, but... you've then... gone that's not nought point two five minutes the speed's per hour. Isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] The speed is per hour... isn't it? So that would have been... point two five which should have been fifteen minutes. [speaker002:] Yes that's sixtieth of an hour [Malcolm:] Which is point two five of an hour. Be very careful with your [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] units. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] That's [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] The calculation's fine what you've done's fine just mucked [speaker002:] Put the wrong [Malcolm:] the units up. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [Malcolm:] Right? So that's... How many minutes earlier? Now you've not done that you've actually done his journey time. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Mm? So careful read the question. You must read the question!... Alright, how're you getting on with them? Or have I stopped you? [speaker002:] Didn't know what I'm supposed to be doing with that. [Malcolm:] Your supposed to be doing them rotate them through Do this one first. [speaker002:] How do you mean them? [Malcolm:] Hundred and eighty degree rotation around C. [speaker002:] doing it Do you mean drawing it on Using this drawing it? [Malcolm:] Yeah.... You've done rotations and reflections and so forth haven't you? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Mhm. that rotated a hundred and eighty degrees about that. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] brought it by isn't it? [speaker002:] But I know what to do I don't know what you want me to do. [Malcolm:] I want it I want it shown as a hundred and eighty degree rotation. There's an exam question [reading] Rotate that [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] about that point the hu Through a hundred and eighty degrees []. [speaker002:] Mm.... [Malcolm:] four. What your not so Fine. Yeah.... Okay yes good. That's alright. [reading] Use the patterns to write down the A three. [] A Three is that that that that that.... A four... [breath]... Lets have a look. Is it done? [speaker002:] No I haven't done anything yet I'm on. [Malcolm:] Look [speaker002:] I can't do it! I can't. [Malcolm:] You haven't done rotations have you? [speaker002:] Yeah I have but I don't how to do them like this I've not seen it been d drawn out like that. [Malcolm:] Right draw something from the centre of rotation to the the figure. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Rotate that bit through a hundred and eighty degrees where's it go? [speaker002:] Over here. [Malcolm:] Over there. There's a hundred [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] and eighty innit? Trace the original.... Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Round the centre of rotation it to the spoke while she's up the other spoke. Dum. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Mm? Right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Yeah. it's as simple as that. Isn't it? [speaker002:] . [Malcolm:] Go on then.... as if you've drawn. Have you got a pencil? [speaker002:] No I was looking at the other one. [Malcolm:] No I want it actually done I want you to physically do 'em. [speaker002:] Right erm [Malcolm:] So they go into your brain [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] ... via your eyes and and finger ends and so forth. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Malcolm:] Okay? [speaker002:] Mhm. [tape change] [Malcolm:] I suppose I should put Nyah Right okay simultaneous equations. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [Malcolm:] With some degree of er... success I trust this time. [speaker002:] I think I messed number one up. [Malcolm:] Ah dear.... Yes you did.... You know why? [speaker002:] No. [Malcolm:] You made the classic mistake the only mistake there is here you multiply everything by two [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] So that's twenty six. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] That's the only I mean that's th that's the real problem with this thing It's one the the difficulties you end up with You see you must remember to multiply everything that's there by the number you want to multiply, not just half of it. And that's all the problem is. [speaker002:] I think I've done the others right.... [Malcolm:] Yes that looks alright.... Yeah. Well you can always tell can't you? How do you tell? St st st just stick [speaker002:] Go back and check it [Malcolm:] the numbers back in. Just put the numbers back in. Yeah it's alright. [breath] Yeah it's alright. You see you managed to... plough through these quite r readily did you? [speaker002:] Sort of. [Malcolm:] Ah.... What on earth's that question? [speaker002:] Two A plus [Malcolm:] Oh it's an A is it?... Oh I beg your pardon sorry [speaker002:] I changed it to. [Malcolm:] That's al that's alright that's alright I'm with that. I understand what you're doing it's a substitution. [speaker002:] It's a little like As and Bs. [Malcolm:] Er it doesn't make any difference does it? [speaker002:] No but I'm used to Xs and Ys. [Malcolm:] Yes but A Yeah that's alright erm except for examples... we where do up to? [speaker002:] Ten. [Malcolm:] Up to ten.... Yes. Have a go at fourteen and sixteen. Whilst I sit here and admire your expertise and [speaker002:] Ha. [Malcolm:] general... facility at this subject. [speaker002:] Mm. [break in recording] [Malcolm:] And say to yourself [speaker002:] [whispering] Nine seven nine C plus [] [Malcolm:] Yep. Or four Y minus minus nine. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Which is probably as good. [speaker002:] Thirteen. [Malcolm:] Thirteen is right. [speaker002:] [whispering] twenty six [] [Malcolm:] That's okay. Y equals [speaker002:] Y equals... What're you gonna do? Divide it. [Malcolm:] Yeah, whoa. Right it's two isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Okay. [speaker002:] Substitute that back in. [Malcolm:] Yes that's right.... Yes.... Do number seventeen. [speaker002:] But I haven't done sixteen. [Malcolm:] Just do number seventeen I fancy seventeen better than number sixteen. [speaker002:] Mhm, you would. [Malcolm:] I know.... I have this great in-built desire to make people suffer. [speaker002:] [cough] [Malcolm:] [breath]... There's an easier way of doing it isn't there? [speaker002:] What get rid of the Ys? [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. Suppose so. [Malcolm:] Yeah there is is There's an awful lot of suppose so about that you only gonna do one set of calculations rather than two aren't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] You must look at this from the minimum of Point of view of the minimum amount of labour.... Yeah. [speaker002:] [whispering] Equals twenty six. [] [Malcolm:] No it doesn't. I beg your pardon yes it does. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Yes it does. You're right. [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [Malcolm:] That's right. [speaker002:] [whispering] and X equals [] [Malcolm:] Thirty three.... Yeah. Alright we need to bother a I know you I know you can do substitution. Yeah thing about it is though when you're looking at this, you wanna be looking as to which is the Produces the smallest numbers. [speaker002:] mm. [Malcolm:] And which produces the minimum amount of manipulation and that was that the second one wasn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] You had much less to do than anything else. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Right that's unfortunate. That I l I've forgotten to bring the other work. However. [speaker001:] Can I Can I just interrupt and say I've forgotten. I'm sorry is that enough? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] thank you. [speaker002:] Eye's funny. [Malcolm:] Yeah.... Now look it asks you for a certain number of things It says As... The average doesn't it? How [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Do you work t an average? [speaker002:] Average is all the tests added together [Malcolm:] Yeah, [speaker002:] divide by the number of tests he had. [Malcolm:] That's right. So what's the total for all his test? [speaker002:] Hundred and twenty six. [Malcolm:] Hundred and twenty six how many tests had he had? [speaker002:] ... X. [Malcolm:] X. So the average is going to be? [speaker002:] Hundred and twenty five divide by x. [Malcolm:] Hundred an Is it a hundred and twenty five? [speaker002:] twenty six. [Malcolm:] Hundred and twenty six divided by X is that. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] So what's difficult about that? [speaker002:] Nothing. [Malcolm:] So. Now there's another two tests. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] So what's the total now? [speaker002:] ... Hundred and twenty eight... divide by [Malcolm:] Where's a hundred and twenty eight come from? What's the total marks for the next two tests? [speaker002:] Oh.... [Malcolm:] You're told what the marks are for the next two tests aren [speaker002:] Oh nine and eight. [Malcolm:] Nine and eight aren't they? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] So what's the total marks for the Now for the the tests? How many marks you got all together? [speaker002:] Hundred and... [whispering] twenty thirty [] forty... [whispering] forty two []. [Malcolm:] Mm. [cough] What's a hundred and twenty six plus nine?... No! What's a hundred and twenty six plus nine? Come on what's nine add six? [speaker002:] Hundred and thirty six. [Malcolm:] O What's nine add six? [speaker002:] Eleven. [Malcolm:] Nine add six? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh [] Fourteen. [Malcolm:] And another one. [speaker002:] Six [Malcolm:] fifteen yeah? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Six and nine it's always one less when innit when you're adding nine? So it's fifteen do it's a hundred and twenty six plus nine is? [speaker002:] ... hundred and thirty forty. [Malcolm:] I want a hundred and twenty six plus nine! [speaker002:] Oh a hundred and twenty a hundred and thirty... five. [Malcolm:] Hundred and thirty five. What's five and eight?... Not [speaker002:] Thirteen. [Malcolm:] Thirteen so the answer's gonna be a hundred and? [speaker002:] ... Forty three. [Malcolm:] Hundred and forty three. You know what the a en end number's gonna be every time i Don't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Mm. Hundred and forty three. That's right so the total's a hundred and forty three. So what's the what's the average gonna be or even the mean? [speaker002:] Hundred and forty three... divide by [Malcolm:] By [speaker002:] X plus two. [Malcolm:] Splendid. Can we have it written down like real mathematicians?... Ah wonderful. Wonderful. [speaker002:] hundred and forty five. [Malcolm:] Yes No I said a hundred and forty [speaker002:] Forty three [Malcolm:] three yes. Over [speaker002:] Divide by X plus two. [Malcolm:] plus two that's right. Now what's the next part of the question say? [speaker002:] [reading] If if a If his average for the first X test was one greater than his average for [Malcolm:] [reading] X plus two tests. [speaker002:] plus two tests. Use results of one and two [] [Malcolm:] To form the equation and find the value of X. [] Now what it just said... think of another way of saying that. [speaker002:] Work out what X is. [Malcolm:] No you can't work out what X is you haven't got a c hope of working out wh [speaker002:] Form an equation. [Malcolm:] Form an equation. But what's one side of the equation going to be? [speaker002:] Hundred and twenty six divide by X. [Malcolm:] Plus? [speaker002:] Hundred and fort [Malcolm:] No no [speaker002:] plus two [Malcolm:] No no read what it says. [reading] If his average for the first X tests is one greater than the average [] Sorry beg your pardon I've got it round me round me neck. [reading] If his average for the first X t is one greater than his average for the X plus two tests []... So a hundred and twenty six over X is gonna equal? [speaker002:] ... What he got in the first [Malcolm:] O in the second lot... isn't it? Plus one. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Yes. So right it down.... Yeah come on! Just write it down! Hundred and twen [speaker002:] What? [Malcolm:] What I've just told you hundred and twenty six over X is equal? [speaker002:] Hundred and forty three [Malcolm:] Three [speaker002:] divide by X plus two [Malcolm:] Yeah. Plus one.... Yes.... Plus one. [speaker002:] Why is it plus one there? [Malcolm:] Cos it's says it's This is one more than that isn't it?... This is one more than that. [speaker002:] So shouldn't that be plus one? [Malcolm:] How do you make them equal? [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [Malcolm:] Yes think about it carefully. How do you make them equal. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] That's right so. Now what are you going to do? [speaker002:] ... Find the value of X. [Malcolm:] ... I'm an extremely patient soul as you well know, [LAUGHTER] but if you say Find the value of X to me again How are you gonna [] find the value of X? What do you intend to do? [speaker002:] ... Get rid of the denominators. [Malcolm:] Get rid of the denominators, good. Well done. Go on then.... [speaker002:] Is that right? [Malcolm:] No. What're you doing? What're you doing? [speaker002:] Timesing it by X. [Malcolm:] Alright then times it by X. Go on then if that's what you're doing go on. Keep going! Hold on a minute you've still got a this on the bottom haven't you? To start with come on. Cos your multiplying by X go on you haven't cancelled it yet go on. Carry on. [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [Malcolm:] Eh? What are you doing? You can't do that! [speaker002:] Why? [Malcolm:] Multiply everything by X go on. Ju just do every term you've got multiply it by X.... Go on. [speaker002:] I don't know how to do it though. [Malcolm:] Course you do! Just carry on multiplying things by X instead of trying to jump to conclusions.... Where's the two X come from? [speaker002:] Times it by [Malcolm:] But you've got that over th on the bottom haven't you? It's X plus two there, isn't it? It's got nothing to do when multiplying You're multiplying the top by X go on. That's better.... That's right perfect. Go on then, get some stuff cancelled out. That's right. No. There's no way you can do that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But I've got an X on the top. [Malcolm:] Aye but you've got an X plus two on the bottom. [speaker002:] So if I put X minus two on the top? [Malcolm:] No it will not cancel. [speaker002:] Why not? [Malcolm:] You've got a hundred and forty three X over X plus two, haven't you? [speaker002:] Hundred and forty three minus two. [Malcolm:] Hundred and forty does not work. There's no way that works at all.... Just do what you've got there. Write a hundred and twenty six. Write a hundred and twenty six. That's right, equals. Hundred and forty three X over... X plus two. That's right. Plus X. That's perfect now what are you going to do? [speaker002:] ... Can I move across That across to this side? [Malcolm:] You can multiply everything through by X plus two, yes. Go on. [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [Malcolm:] Bracket, X plus two never mind about this s Mm. Equals... that plus... Come on you're multiplying by X plus two. No... you're multiplying by X plus two.... You've missed a You've now dropped a plus sign out haven't you? And you've dropped an X out. [speaker002:] Why? [Malcolm:] You're multiplying this term by X plus two aren't you?... You're [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] gonna multiply everything by X plus X plus two. It just so happens that if multiply this term by X plus two you get rid of the X plus two at the bottom don't you? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] But everything there It's the same thing as when you were doing this.... The simultaneous equations wasn't it? [speaker002:] Why was it? [Malcolm:] You had to me s make sure that you multiply every term out, haven't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] So here you've got to multiply every term out.... Do not forget that that is a term on its own it's got n connected to this yet. [speaker002:] No. [Malcolm:] You're a very very careful about that so start getting it tidied up then. Expand the brackets I think is probably the best thing.... [speaker002:] Hundred and twenty six X [Malcolm:] S X that's right. Plus two hundred and fifty two. [speaker002:] Equals [Malcolm:] Hundred and forty three X [speaker002:] X [Malcolm:] Plus [speaker002:] X squared [Malcolm:] X squared plus two X. That's right. Right now things are getting a bit better aren't they?... Come on!... What're you gonna do now? [speaker002:] [sniff] Do all the Xs on one side. [Malcolm:] Well I'd collect the things together that were the same for a start I think. [speaker002:] ... What d'you mean? [Malcolm:] Well you've got some Xs to collect together haven't you? [speaker002:] Oh. [Malcolm:] Mm?... That's better. That's simplified it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Now s You can start you've still gotta get the every I would get everything over to one side of the equals sign. Why?... What's this? [speaker002:] Then use your quadratic. [Malcolm:] This is a quadratic isn't it? Yes good. [speaker002:] Does it matter which way you put it? [Malcolm:] Well I always like to read it from left to right but it doesn't matter really. [speaker002:] Yeah but I mean [Malcolm:] you can do that if you want to.... I would have put all the... the er [speaker002:] Hundred and forty five X minus hundred and twenty six X. [Malcolm:] Yes.... Plus x squared... minus two five two [speaker002:] Minus two five two. [Malcolm:] Equals nothing. Yes. [speaker002:] So that's going to be... [Malcolm:] Don't look at me like that! [speaker002:] Nineteen X. [Malcolm:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Plus X squared. [Malcolm:] Yeah. Minus two five two. [speaker002:] [whispering] minus two five two Equals nothing. [] [Malcolm:] Equals nothing that's right. Now if you're gonna do this you really want it in the form of X squared first don't you?... really to make it To make... the thing easy to work, aren't you? [speaker002:] Well that's gonna be your A. [Malcolm:] Yeah it is. [speaker002:] B and that's gonna be C. [Malcolm:] It's much be It's much better to see it as A square As X squared plus te nineteen X plus minus two two five, really.... Two five two equals nothing. Right.... [speaker002:] Formula. [Malcolm:] I don't know.... You're gonna have some tremendously large numbers if you work the formula aren't you? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] I mean B squared's nineteen squares you know just under four hundred isn't it? That's twenty times twenty. You imagine four times that. [speaker002:] A lot. [Malcolm:] It's a lot isn't it? [speaker002:] But they're only numbers. [Malcolm:] that's true. But perhaps it's easier I wonder what are other factors of two hundred and fifty two? [speaker002:] One. [Malcolm:] One and two hundred and fifty two, yes very good yes. [speaker002:] Two. [Malcolm:] Yes good. We want a difference of nineteen somewhere don't we?... [speaker002:] That's easy.... We drop the calculator everywhere. [Malcolm:] Well you can drop the calculator if you want it would be better if you pick 'em up and stick the [LAUGHTER] numbers in.... How're you gonna do? [speaker002:] Two hundred and fifty two divide by nineteen.... [Malcolm:] What you got? [speaker002:] Thirteen point two six three one five [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker002:] seven nine eight. [Malcolm:] Yes. I don't think that's right. Try the square root of two five two. [speaker002:] ... Fifteen point eight seven four five [Malcolm:] Yes yes, a difference. Don't know... does sixteen go into it just try sixteen into two five two. [speaker002:] ... Fifteen point seven five. [Malcolm:] [sound of disgust] So we want something like erm... Seven and sixteen, well that doesn't work Sorry seven and twenty six.... Is that right? No. [speaker002:] How about [Malcolm:] No, gives a difference of nineteen. Use the formula then, we're just sitting here wasting time.... [speaker002:] [sigh] [Malcolm:] Minus nineteen... or minus B plus or minus the square root of B [speaker002:] Minus B [Malcolm:] Plus or minus [speaker002:] plus or minus the square root of [Malcolm:] the square root of B squared [speaker002:] [whispering] plus [] [Malcolm:] No. Minus [speaker002:] Minus two B C [Malcolm:] Minus four A C [speaker002:] Four A C [Malcolm:] All over [speaker002:] Two A. [Malcolm:] Two A is right. [speaker002:] So what's A? [Malcolm:] It's an X! [speaker002:] Must be true. [Malcolm:] Yes. I am delighted you agree. [speaker002:] Yeah. Minus nineteen [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker002:] plus or minus [Malcolm:] The square root of nineteen squared minus four times [speaker002:] nineteen squared minus four times [Malcolm:] one [speaker002:] ... one [Malcolm:] times [speaker002:] times two [Malcolm:] No It's not times two five minus two five two. [speaker002:] times minus two five two [Malcolm:] Lovely. [speaker002:] All over [Malcolm:] Over two [speaker002:] Two times one. [Malcolm:] Yep. [speaker002:] X squared. [Malcolm:] X equals not X squared. Minus nineteen... plus or minus [speaker002:] ... plus or minus Can I do that [Malcolm:] Root [speaker002:] all in one? [Malcolm:] Yeah! [speaker002:] I can do it on here, oops! [Malcolm:] Hope so. [speaker002:] Square root of nineteen squared minus four times times minus [Malcolm:] Minus [speaker002:] two five two. [Malcolm:] Answer.... Nineteen squared's three hundred and ninety ninety one I think. [speaker002:] Mm. Three hundred and sixty one. [Malcolm:] Really? Three sixty one times... eight thousand There's summat wrong. [speaker002:] Nineteen squared minus four times one [Malcolm:] No it's minus It's plus It's nineteen squared plus eight... nought... one nought nought eight. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Four time two five two. Two hundred and fifty times four is a thousand Two hundred and fift [speaker002:] It's minus! [Malcolm:] It's minus times a minus... Isn't it? [speaker002:] Four [Malcolm:] four times two th two five two is one thousand and eight isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Two fifty times four is a thousand. So two five two times four is t one thousand and eight, plus three hundred and chunkety chunk Three hundred and sixty one. [speaker002:] Mm. Which is one three six nine. [Malcolm:] That's more like it. [speaker002:] Yeah but what about mm. above answer. [Malcolm:] Mm. [speaker002:] What about that? Where do get that from? [Malcolm:] Because what you did was you did er nineteen squared [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] minus four.... I don't know why I don't how that works [speaker002:] Would that be in brackets? [Malcolm:] Of course it is. [speaker002:] I didn't put a brackets there. [Malcolm:] Well you would have to although I would have though it might have worked algebraically that's certainly wrong though. What did we say? One three six... nine. [speaker002:] Nine. [Malcolm:] One three six nine, yes. [speaker002:] All over [Malcolm:] Er you want the square root of that. that's it all over two. [speaker002:] Two. [Malcolm:] Yep, so it's minus nineteen plus or minus [speaker002:] Plus or minus [Malcolm:] root one three six nine.... [speaker002:] [whispering] Square root [] [Malcolm:] One three six nine.... That's interesting. Ah! Yes go on. [speaker002:] Yeah it is isn't it? [Malcolm:] Yes. Go on then. [speaker002:] You'll remember that. [Malcolm:] I will. [speaker002:] Thirty seven. [Malcolm:] So the f One answer is f fourteen [speaker002:] Don't! Just don't! [Malcolm:] [LAUGHTER] It's not actually.... One answer's nine innit?... [speaker002:] Minus nought point five? [Malcolm:] Yeah.... And the other answer is?... Can you tell me how managed to produce nought point five, how you managed to produce... that? [speaker002:] Don't know. [Malcolm:] Minus nineteen plus thirty seven without the aid of a calculator... must be about eighteen mustn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] The difference between thirty seven and nineteen's about eighteen innit? Approximately?... Divide that by two, answer? [speaker002:] Nine. [Malcolm:] Nine. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Engage brain [LAUGHTER] Th You must regard a calculator with the greatest and gravest of suspicion. Cos it's not actually working algebraic that calculator at the present moment I don't know what you've got it programmed in What you've got it at but it's not working algebraic. [speaker002:] Now it might work.... [Malcolm:] [thinking noise] [speaker002:] No unless we have to Minus nineteen minus thirty seven divide by two minus twenty eight? [Malcolm:] Yeah that's better. [speaker002:] ... I wonder if minus. [Malcolm:] Wait you've got minus fifty six haven't you here? this is minus fifty six if you use your brain. And divided by two is minus twenty eight. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Yes minus twenty eight. Now if you You take the difference between nineteen and thirty seven you get the answer eighteen don't you? [speaker002:] [sigh] Yes. [Malcolm:] You divide that by two you get the answer nine. [speaker002:] Nine.... Mm. But why isn't my calculator working? [Malcolm:] Because you haven't got it in the correct mode it's not working algebraic. [speaker002:] Which is in what function? [Malcolm:] Who knows what your calculator and that's a such a wonderful piece of work that. [speaker002:] Yeah but [Malcolm:] Scie Scientific or You want it in scientific mode if it says scientific [speaker002:] Yeah it does. In that case use it in scientific and then it will work that way. Will it? [Malcolm:] Yeah well it should do. Anyway. [speaker002:] . [cough] [Malcolm:] Okay. Let's read the second part of this question cos it's taken us er quite some time to do it but excellent question. Hasn't it [speaker002:] Right [Malcolm:] Right let's read the second part of this. [reading] It has an average of thirteen point five marks for the first X plus one tests. His mark on the last test gave him a final average of fourteen marks for X plus two tests. What was his marks for the last test. [] How do you work out his total marks for his X plus one tests. [speaker002:] Thirteen point five divided by X plus one. [Malcolm:] That's his No no you've got his average as thirteen point five haven't you? How do you work out his total marks which is what we're really looking for? [speaker002:] Times X plus [Malcolm:] Yes, it's thirteen point five times X plus one. And how do you work out his total marks for his X plus two tests? [speaker002:] Fourteen times thirteen plus two. [Malcolm:] No no no. [speaker002:] Why? [Malcolm:] Fourteen times what? [speaker002:] Times X plus... two. [Malcolm:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's what I said! [Malcolm:] Was it? I'm sorry I misheard you. So what it's alright. [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] I misheard you okay? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] So, it might be a good idea to write that down and work it out. [speaker002:] Thirteen point five [Malcolm:] Yes [speaker002:] times [Malcolm:] Will you stop doing that! [speaker002:] What? [Malcolm:] That!... [speaker002:] What's wrong with it? [Malcolm:] How do you write a multiplication in algebra?... You're gonna multiply that by X plus one aren't you? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] How do you write that? [speaker002:] Hundred and thirty five X plus one. [Malcolm:] Bracket. [speaker002:] X plus one. [Malcolm:] X plus one. Ha? [speaker002:] Suppose so. [Malcolm:] That's how you write it. [speaker002:] Minus fourteen [Malcolm:] Never mind about this silliness, that you've been allowed to get away with. Right go and work them out then.... Thirteen point five times one is? Thirteen point five innit? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Mm.... That's right.... Okay. So what's your total marks?... Sorry what's the difference?... [speaker002:] Fourteen point five. [Malcolm:] You know what he total mark for... his X plus one test was don't you? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] And you know the total mark was X plus two tests. It actually asks you for the mark he obtained for his final tests doesn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] So if you take two away, one from the other, you'll have the mark [speaker002:] Nought point five. [Malcolm:] for his test won't you? So you'll have nought point five X plus?... [speaker002:] Plus... [Malcolm:] Point about it is y you can't see it, can you unless you've got it written down so write it down. it's thirteen well it's fourteen X isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Plus twenty eight minus thirteen point five X minus thirteen point five isn't it? Or minus thirteen X plus thirteen point five isn't it? [speaker002:] Why is it? [Malcolm:] Well you're taking the difference between the two aren't you? [speaker002:] So don't you just minus them? [Malcolm:] Yeah. So that's fourteen X plus twenty eight minus thirteen point five X minus thirteen point five isn't it? Yes? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] So that's nought point five X, now what?... Plus Plus what's the difference here?... [speaker002:] Hundred and thir Hundred [Malcolm:] What's twenty eight minus thirteen point five? [speaker002:] Oh it's point five! [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker002:] ... [Malcolm:] What's twenty eight minus thirteen poin [speaker002:] Fourteen point five. [Malcolm:] Fourteen point five. [speaker002:] ... [Malcolm:] Okay.... [speaker002:] So wouldn't [Malcolm:] That's [speaker002:] you times it by two? [Malcolm:] Another student has his average as thirteen point five marks for the first blah blah blah, right. [815 1] Which marks for the last test give a final average of fourteen marks for [] So the one test is gonna give him that isn't it? That's right you agree isn't it?... That's his total marks for X plus one tests, is there. Total marks for S plus plus two tests is there. The actual mark... is that. [speaker002:] That's for his nought... nought point five X. So to get those two up to one X [Malcolm:] up to one X you should times by two which is twenty nine. Which I don't believe.... [speaker002:] Well do you times it by four? [Malcolm:] No give... but his mark on his last test gave him the final average of fourteen marks for X plus two tests. So that's his total there and his total there. Yes it's gonna be doubled hasn't it to give you that?... Oh!... [sigh] [tutting] [LAUGHTER] Oh dear! How daft can you get? What's the value of X? [speaker002:] W we worked that out somewhere didn't we? [Malcolm:] We did didn't we? [speaker002:] Oh! [Malcolm:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh! Nearly as bad as. [Malcolm:] Dear oh dear! Eh? [speaker002:] Oh. [Malcolm:] Innit? I'm very tired [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] So what do you do? Times thirteen point five X by [Malcolm:] Well you do thirteen point five times ten if you want. [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] And fourteen times eleven. [speaker002:] Why eleven? [Malcolm:] Well nine plus two is eleven isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Hundred and fifty four. [speaker002:] Now who is being dormant? [Malcolm:] And you've got it haven't you? [speaker002:] Then you find the difference? [Malcolm:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That makes sense. [Malcolm:] actually work here hasn't it? [speaker002:] Does that give you the same answer? [Malcolm:] Yes it should do. Let's just check it go on. You had thirteen point five times ten which I think is a hundred and thirty five in normal circumstances. [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] And a hundred and f fourteen times eleven. Go on it's a hundred and fifty four.... [speaker002:] Minus nineteen. [Malcolm:] No minus a hundred and thirty five. [speaker002:] One fifty four minus hundred and thirty five. Nineteen. [Malcolm:] Nineteen. [speaker002:] Which is wh what we would have done if we'd done [Malcolm:] If we'd done [speaker002:] that better. [Malcolm:] Yeah but it we it's a spurious argument because you've got nought point five X haven't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Nought point five X i Nought point five of X i is four point five isn't it [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] Four point five plus fourteen point five... Answer? [speaker002:] Nineteen. [Malcolm:] Nineteen. We actually got it right both ways. But it would have been simpler to have done it that way I think. [speaker002:] And quicker. [Malcolm:] And quicker. But not as entertaining. [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] [whispering] Not as entertaining. [] [speaker002:] Mm. If you like. [Malcolm:] Yes. They have a tendency to ask questions not quite as comp Not quite as... abstract as that. [speaker002:] Intricate. Not even intric Not quite as abstract cos th the the tendency is to ask the question The average weight of nine people is whatever it is, you know somebody else has added Yeah questions. [Malcolm:] Yeah yeah. Rather than quite as abstract as that But you can cope with abstract as that you can do A level. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] You have to cope You have to... You have to be as abstract as that. Which will not do you any harm. [speaker002:] Good. [humming] [reading] A man bought three box of Dutch cigars. [] [Malcolm:] Good lord how appalling in this day and age! [speaker002:] Three boxes! [reading] At X pence per box, and two boxes of Havana cigars... at Y pence per box. Calculate terms of X and Y [] [Malcolm:] [reading] Cost of the five boxes. [] So what's the cost of the Dutch ones? [speaker002:] How many boxes? Three X. [Malcolm:] Splendid. What's the cost of the Havanas? [speaker002:] Two Y. [Malcolm:] So what's the total cost? [speaker002:] Five X two Y. [Malcolm:] Eh? [speaker002:] Five X plus two Y. [Malcolm:] Five X plus two Y not just five x two Y. [speaker002:] Plus two Y. [Malcolm:] Five X plus two Y. Wonderful. [speaker002:] [reading] [Malcolm:] Go on [speaker002:] the average... cost per box in terms of X and Y. [Malcolm:] So what's the average b cost per box gonna be? five X plus two Y you better write that down before our brains refuse to accept any more information. Two Y is the total cost, how do you find the average? How do you find an average? [speaker002:] Add them together and divide by the number you've got. [Malcolm:] How many have you got. [speaker002:] Five. [Malcolm:] No you haven't. [speaker002:] We've got five boxes. [Malcolm:] No you haven't got five boxes. [speaker002:] Why?... [Malcolm:] Read it again. [speaker002:] [reading] Three boxes of Dutch [] [Malcolm:] Whoops! [speaker002:] That's supposed to be three X. [Malcolm:] That's a three. Yes that's better. So you haven't got [speaker002:] . [Malcolm:] F Divide that by five. [speaker002:] Divide that by five. [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker002:] The whole of it? [Malcolm:] Yeah. Cos that's the total price isn't? Total cost. [speaker002:] Total of boxes you mean. [Malcolm:] Total cost. Five's the total number of boxes but that the top one's the total cost isn't it? [speaker002:] Yea. [Malcolm:] That's right. Yep.... [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [Malcolm:] Yes. [speaker002:] Oh.. [Malcolm:] [whistling through teeth] [reading] At a profit of thirty three percent of their costs []. [speaker002:] How do [Malcolm:] Thir [speaker002:] work that out? [Malcolm:] Thirty three and a third percent is a third. [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] So I want a third of their... their costs. So what did he sell... the Dutch box [speaker002:] Which is the Dutch which is that half. [Malcolm:] Well, [reading] later he sold his three boxes of Dutch cigars at a profit of thirty three of their cost. [] Mm? So [speaker002:] So that's three X divided by [Malcolm:] No it's not three X divided by five, it's says of their cost. Thy cost three X didn't they? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] And the sold them for a third profit so what did he sell them for? [speaker002:] ... X plus a third. [Malcolm:] If he sold the things for [speaker002:] Four [Malcolm:] thirt Aye. [speaker002:] Four thirds. [Malcolm:] No.... I if [speaker002:] If he's got [Malcolm:] he bought them for three quid? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Yeah Which is highly improbable but he bought them for three pounds [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] In the days when a gold sovereign meant something when you went abroad [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] And he sold them that was his cost was three pounds. And he h He sold them at a profit of thirty three and a third percent which is a third. What did he sell them for? [speaker002:] Four pounds. [Malcolm:] Four quid.... So if he [speaker002:] four X. [Malcolm:] No if he cost him three X, what's he gonna sell them for? [speaker002:] Four X. [Malcolm:] Yes.... So he sells his Dutch s cigars for four x. [speaker002:] When he only bought them for three X? [Malcolm:] That's right. So he sold them for four X. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [Malcolm:] Then what did he do with his havanas? [speaker002:] [reading] HE gave away the other two boxes as presents. []... Strange man. [Malcolm:] A strange fellow. Well no it probably a little bit of sweetener for a business deal later one perhaps? [speaker002:] Mm. [Malcolm:] Yes. I used to get bottles of whisky at Christmas and so forth. [speaker002:] And we stole it [LAUGHTER]. [Malcolm:] Yes you now what it m Yes you know all about that? [speaker002:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Yes. So it's a box of h s Havana cigars. So how much profit did he make on that?... He didn't did he? He made absolutely no profit at all, in fact he made a loss of? [speaker002:] Two X. [Malcolm:] Two Y. [speaker002:] Yes two Y. [Malcolm:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [reading] Calculate the amount he received for the sale of the cigars. [] [tape change]

[speaker001:] Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the fifty seventh day of this enquiry. I hope, I imagine I should say perhaps, that this is the last day on which the County Council will be represented formally at the enquiry. We turn now to land north of Skelton. Mr [whispering] []. [Harry:] Right. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We're dealing this morning with topic areas thirty nine and forty, and sites two and three. Erm can I just begin by taking the appearances first please. [George:] Sir, my name is George. I'm here in an honourary capacity as advocate and expert witness... on behalf of the Skelton Parish Council,... the Skelton Village Trust,... [John:] I don't think there's any need to read all the other names, Mr. It's all [George:] Erm [John:] Is is it correctly set out on the day's programme? [George:] It is indeed sir. [John:] Good. [George:] Er er s i it is set out on my proof, G W Fourteen. I haven't checked the erm... er wording of today's programme, but I've no reason to assume that any mistakes will have been made on that.... Erm [John:] Mr I I have from you I think er... six documents. There is a summary,... your proof, your appendices, there's a letter dated the fourth of February from the Yorkshire Wildlife Trust, there is a special statement, and last, and only... just received in the last few minutes, there is a supplementary note by Doctor on the Greater Crested Newt and its importance in relation to Skelton Pond. [George:] Sir, you have enumerated all the documents which exist on our side, and with regard to the letters erm... er of the fourth of February and the twentieth of April to which you have referred, they are part of the set of appendices, and are respectively appendix eight and appendix nine. [John:] I I appreciate that point Mr, but as they arrived separately they've been given different numbers er a as... simply er a matter of administrative convenience. [George:] Sir, before I open the case, er after you have taken the appearances, it is my intention with your permission to make a special statement having regard to an event in the past, and to then make submissions. Thank you. [Harry:] Thank you very much. please. Mr. [speaker005:] Sir yes, I represent the County Council... with respect to these objections sir, and I shall be calling Mrs to give the evidence,... and she will produce a proof and a bundle of appendices which consist of two plans. Those are documents N Y Two Three Seven and N Y Two Three Eight. Thank you very much. [Harry:] And for the District Council, Mr. [speaker006:] Yes sir. Sir, I'll be calling Mr. His proof is R D Eighty Two with er appendices R D Eighty Three. [Harry:] Thank you very much. Mr? [speaker007:] Yes sir. Sir, I'm instructed by Mrs. I represent those who are enumerated on the second sheet. [Harry:] Thank you for not [John:] Yes, thank you very much. [Harry:] That's quite a long list I think. [speaker007:] Sir, you have before you I hope the proof of evidence and appendices from Mrs. [Harry:] Yes. [speaker007:] Sir, with permission, the course I propose to adopt is as follows. [cough] I propose to call her, but if in the event I judge it to be unnecessary then I shall invite because I don't want to add unnecessarily to the length of these proceedings. [Harry:] Thank you very much indeed..... Right, Mr then please.... [George:] Sir this is a special statement.... [reading] I was advised by the Greenbelt Local Plan Programme Officer, on fifth March,... that counsel for North Yorkshire County Council, with the apparent concurrence of counsel for Ryedale District Council, had delivered an oral submission to the inspector, that at the hearing of the case which was to have taken place on the eleventh of March, certain evidence contained in my proof of evidence issued on twelfth February should be treated as inadmissible. That submission was made at a time when I was sch not scheduled to be present at this enquiry, and was not present. A prior indication of an intention to make a submission had not furthermore been communicated.... On hearing of the occurrence, I immediately requested through the programme officer a copy of the submission as delivered, but received in reply from the County Planning Officer of North Yorkshire County Council merely a statement that the County Council was requesting that an issue be not entertained by the inspector on the basis of the Council's position as set out in paragraph eight point one of its proof of evidence. Not being in possession of a verbatim record of the submission by the County, I have prepared twelve linked submissions in this matter, document G W Fourteen B, which seek to rebut with justification the point believed to have been made on behalf of the County and District Councils. If after I have read my submissions the councils wish and are permitted to make any observations on it, I request the right to reply thereto before the matter is decided by you. It is my intention to proceed to open the case proper, relating to areas D thirty nine and D forty, after the points raised in the court's submissions have been resolved. []... [John:] Er Mr, you have of course just been reading your special statement, erm document number five, and [cough] there is left the erm additional two pages which makes these... er submissions. I would imagine that the er parties on my left have had a chance to read and consider these erm statements already. Er I I would... think it very little advantage in actually reading all of this aloud now, unless you feel it is going to be some great advantage. [George:] Sir, it has always been one of my principles that planning, for its acceptance, depends on public understanding. There is present in this hall today a number of people who are concerned with the future of Skelton. They have had no opportunity whatsoever to hear the nature of the point which is due to be considered by you in relation to these submissions, and I think that it would be in the interests of public understanding of this case were they enabled to hear. [John:] Well Mr, of course the same argument could be put forward in er... to justify reading all proofs of evidence in full, and er that would lengthen an already very long enquiry to er er erm a quite grotesque extent. However, as this is a particular topic, and as er I'm going to be asking the councils er and the supporters if they wish to comment on er your submissions, perhaps to assist the public understanding of these replies, er there may be some advantage in you reading er at least a summary of these er points. But I certainly don't want to take any other evidence in court other than this. Pl please continue then and and er... [George:] Yes. With regard to [John:] we'll we'll deal with this relatively quickly. [George:] Yes sir. The as regards to the other evidence, you have my two-page summary, er and therefore there is no risk of erm any erm... leng length of time being taken the rest of. [reading] Changes in proposed greenbelt boundaries affecting a given area, and occurring at the consultative draft stage of local plans and or pre-map stage and the formal deposit of those plans, and or between the deposit copies and proposals subsequently issued by county and local planning authorities by way of desired changes to deposit copies, militate against, and may totally inhibit in relation to that area, emergence within the meaning of the national doctrine most recently propagated in paragraph er within erm paragraph thirty two of the revised version of P P G number One. Proposals made by way of change to a deposit copy have a relatively stronger affect against emergence, owing to the lesser public consultation which attends them prior to the enquiry stage.... Two. The existence of valid objections to the deposit copies and or to the proposals subsequently issued by county or local planning authorities by way of desired changes to deposit copies, also militates against the operation of the doctrine of emergence in relation to that area. Three. Impediments to emergence from more than one cause which exist at any one time in relation to the same area, are cumulative in the degree of their effects, up to a state of total inhibition of emergence prior to adoption of the plan concerned. Four. A change of greenbelt status, and changes to a proposed greenbelt boundary variously affecting the combined area known for the purposes of this enquiry as D thirty nine and D forty, north of Skelton Village, have been proposed in the deposit copies, and in the desire to change proposed by the county and local planning authorities, and sundry valid representations have been lodged relating to the exclusion of all or parts of the area of the greenbelt. [cough] The essential feature of these representations is that they seek greenbelt status,... and any question of the technical means by which this is sought to be achieved, such as by washing over, or exclusion from an inset area, is immaterial to the relevance of the representation of the end desired.... This is especially so as the local plan makes no reference whatever to the proposal to effectively change from a washed-over to an inset status, while the greenbelt local plan refers to that change only by the one word, quote proposed unquote, in parentheses on page twenty five of the deposit copy. In the case of neither plan was attention drawn to this fundamental change in the plans accompanying the text, or at public consultation displays, and few members of the public have therefore been aware of the prevailing washed-over status of Skelton, and consequence consequently of the intended change to it. Five.... The cumulative effect of the changes proposed and the objections made, is to negate the emergence at this time of any new greenbelt boundary affecting the area of Skelton. Six. Skelton Village and the area of D thirty nine and D forty form no part of the built area of York, but are separated from it by open country. Seven.... Skelton Village and the area of D thirty nine and D forty are located well within... the general extent of the statutory York greenbelt, as defined by Policy E Eight Four of the North Yorkshire County Structure Plan, approved by the Secretary of State for the Environment. Eight.... No inset within the greenbelt is in existence for the area,... which is at this time washed-over... by the greenbelt.... The local planning authority refer to the washed-over status of the whole area from nineteen eighty one, in paragraph two point one point four of their proof.... Nine. As a result of the village being within,... and washed-over by, the greenbelt, no inset boundary exists in the vicinity. It is in my opinion axiomatic that a boundary which does not exist is ipso facto incapable of being re-aligned,... but can only with ju justification be created de novo. Likewise, the physical suitability or otherwise of a boundary as which does not exist, cannot arise. Ten.... In accordance with the provisions of national policy as set out in paragraph nine of Planning Policy Guidance Note Two, any alteration to the general extent of the approved greenbelt is to be proposed only in exceptional circumstances.... Eleven.... Any alteration within the general coverage of the approved greenbelt by way of the creation of an inset, would require justification in accordance with the second sentence of paragraph nine of P P G Two, and in the strict terms of a proposal made under approved Structure Plan Policy E Ten, as inserted by the Secretary of State for the Environment. No such proposal has been made by the county or local planning authorities. Twelve, and last. Having regard particularly to submissions five, eight, nine and eleven above, the changes currently proposed by the county and local planning authorities require to be considered in relation to the washed-over greenbelt status at present applicable to the area under which no boundary is in existence. Such consideration inter alia is given in my proof of evidence and the summary thereto, and they are therefore admissible, and of major relevance to this enquiry. Any submission to the contrary which may be or has been made by North Yorkshire County Council and or Ryedale District Council is accordingly strongly and totally refuted, for the reasons detailed in these submissions. [] Sir. [John:] Thank you Mr. Mr, do you wish to reply to that? [speaker005:] Er... briefly sir, yes.... The deposit copy of the York greenbelt local plan showed site D thirty nine... as being within the village of Skelton, and site D forty as being without in the greenbelt. Objection was made by the Skelton Village Trust to site D thirty nine being shown as being within the village perimeter. That was the only objection made to site D thirty nine,... er that it should be The objection was that it should shown to be in the greenbelt. That would be.... [cough] When the proposed changes were made known, advertised, and er members of the public and other bodies were able to make representations with respect to them, site D forty was shown as being additionally within... the village.... Skelton Parish Council and Mr made objections to that proposed change.... Those were the only two objections made to that proposed change.... We therefore, sir, have before us today to consider... these two sites, D thirty nine and D forty, in the context of the relevant and duly-made objections that have been made, and they are the simple question is, should these sites be in the within the greenbelt or within the inset. It's actually, sir, a fairly straightforward issue. What Mr... is seeking to do now... is to raise a much wider issue, it seems to us, and that is that Skelton ought to be washed-over in its entirety with greenbelt notation. That objection has never been made. It's not a duly-made objection, it's not one that he has any right to raise at this late stage. We will not entertain it sir, because it raises a whole host of wider and different issues, many of which we in fact considered yesterday in the context of Stockton, if you will recall. The objectives which the objectors are anxious to see achieved are to have these two sites shown as being in the greenbelt. That can be achieved in the context of the objections that have been duly made.... What we cannot countenance though sir, is any widening... o of the route... that they seek to go down, to have these sites included in the greenbelt, and that's to say... to entertain the argument that the whole of Skelton ought to be washed-over.... The issue is straightforward, should these sites be in the greenbelt or not? That objective can be achieved er under the terms of the objections that have been made. The er need to widen it to include er a washing-over argument doesn't arise. [John:] Thank you Mr. Do you want to add anything to that Mr, or does the same point apply? [speaker006:] Well er sir the same point applies, and I'd only say this. Erm in relation to the er modification in the plan which er the deposit plan which put these two sites er out of the greenbelt, er Mr did make representations. Er in answer to the question [reading] Which proposed change do you object to? [] he wrote [reading] Greenbelt boundary north of Skelton [], and then in answer to the question [reading] Please state here the full grounds on which your objection or representations will be made [], he wrote [reading] The change is contrary to my supported representations on the deposit plan []. Sir, you will remember in the deposit, Skelton was inset, although these two fields were not part of the inset. So he supported... the deposit. And I object to it, as I consider that O S fields seven three six five and six eight six two with the land extending westwards to the A Nineteen, should not be part of the Skelton inset area.... It's plain, it's unambiguous. Mr 's concern related to two sites and two sites alone, not to the principle of insetting. Indeed, we're not aware of erm anybody. [John:] Mr, you you've er commented upon Mr 's objection that he made himself, but of course there are he is appearing for many others, [speaker006:] Yes,. [John:] many of whom no doubt are present today. [speaker006:] Yes. [John:] Er was the same did the same apply to the objections made by [speaker006:] Well,we we're not aware of anybody objecting to the general principle of insetting and seeking Skelton to be washed-over. Everybody was concerned with these two fields. [John:] Thank you.... Mr, I'm not quite sure t w er what your your standing is in relation to this point. Are there any helpful comments you could make? [speaker007:] Sir, I think I have probably have no standing, and the answer to your question directly is no. [John:] Thank you.... Mr, before I make a ruling on this point, did you wish to make er any further comment?... [George:] [cough] Sir, one has to have in these matters regard to the practicalities of the situation. The question of washing-over and insetting is a technical planning matter... in which the population as a whole is not well versed.... The representations which come from members of the public and others cannot therefore be assumed in all cases to embody the approach which would be given were a a full understanding of the previous and proposed situations in the mind of those who made that... proposal. This is, I am certain, the case... with regard to Skelton. I have ample evidence that persons who are very aware of matters of public interest in general have been unaware at a critical stage of the washed-over status at that time of Skelton. It is I believe a result of that situation that reference to the... correct, that is to say the continuation of washing-over, was not known in the documents first submitted by way of representation to various planning. Secondly, I did say that the degree of confusion has existed because the two planning authorities have jigged about with the line a great deal.... It is perhaps fortunate from our point of view that we can pin ourselves, in so far as we are talking about an inset, to the actual deposit copy of Ryedale District Council, when they did get the matter right, but no body apart from them, sir, did so. Sir, I feel that regard should be had by you to the practicalities of the situation as well as to the submissions which I have made, in coming to your decision.... [John:] Thank you Mr.... I have of course had the advantage of considering this matter er previously, and I have had the chance also to look at the various objections that have been made. It does appear to me... er that the view which has been expressed by Mr and Mr is correct, that you and your clients did not object in terms, or indeed, as far as I can see, by implication in any way, to the existence of an inset for the village. They certainly did object to the proposed changes, but they did so in terms of where it is right that the inset boundary should be placed, and as far as I'm aware there are no references in any objections to the wider question of whether or not the village should be washed-over or be inset. I have therefore to agree with both the councils, that the comments you have just made and which you make at some length in your proof on this point, amount in effect to a late objection.... Neither council wants me to deal with this as a late objection.... It is therefore a matter which lies within my discretion as to whether or not I take it as a late objection.... I am not convinced that special circumstances apply in this case which override the which is advice given very clearly in the P P G Twelve, that, in general, late objections should not be entertained except in most exceptional circumstances.... I should however indicate... that... to understand properly what is the appropriate position for an inset boundary, I have to look at the reasons for there being an inset at all for the village, as, as you correctly indicate, it lies plainly otherwise within the general extent of the greenbelt.... It may, therefore, be necessary to examine why the two councils did not adopt the alternative approach of washing-over the village.... You are, however of course, aware that this background to insetting was discussed... at some length yesterday, in the context of another village. There would,... therefore in any event, be no need and no advantage for me, in repeating all that was said then. And this is of course, as if I agree with the view that you expressed yesterday in a general context, although it was made specifically then in relation to one village, any recommendation I make in relation to that village, if it is based on the general principle, must apply by analogy also to Skelton, and I would have little choice but to recommend to the councils that they may wish... or indeed they should, reconsider this question of washing-over or insetting elsewhere.... I think I hope that that is clear. It i it is I appreciate er a difficult er course now to steer between approaching head-on an objection which is a late objection and dealing... by er reference to obliquely perhaps to matters that have been dealt with elsewhere to the question of washing-over, but I'm sure that you can... steer this particular course or cross this particular tightrope with success. [George:] Sir, we are much obliged to you for your consideration upon this matter, and I assure you that I shall do my best to avoid... in the evidence which I shall give and in my other remarks... apparently proposing a washed-over status for the village as a whole. However, it may incidentally erm come into the words that I use that erm er I'm referring to the washed-over or other status of these two sites. I shall endeavour to avoid that, and I ask your indulgence if this happens, since to a great extent one cannot erm select particular sentences erm that have not already documents. Sir, if it is your wish, I will now open the case. [John:] Please, yes.... A are you going to be reading from your summary? [George:] Er when I give my expert evidence, I will read from the summary. Sir it is my wont to open er a case of this kind with a quotation.... In nineteen fifty three, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government issued their Design Town and Village manual... and because of difficulties attending design concepts, the manual was made up of essays by eminent planners on various topics, with the full imprimatur of the minister.... A contribution relating to the English village was made by the late Thomas, and he had this to say.... [reading] It has sometimes been claimed that the village is a peculiarly English invention.... Whether that is so or not, the English village is, I believe, among the pleasantest and most places that men have ever built to live in,... and certainly it has a physical character and appearance that is strongly its own. Whatever may be its points of similarity to, or difference from, other countries' villages as social institutions,... it has very special qualities of picturesqueness, not of course to be confused with quaintness.... I do not think that these qualities arise wholly, or even mainly, as it is so often assumed, from the character of its buildings and the beauty of the natural forms, such as trees, which stand in juxtaposition to them. I believe that they lie as much, or even more, in the form in the ground plan which the buildings and the natural objects together make. []... Sir,... you have heard the virtues of various villages around York extolled... at earlier hearings in this enquiry.... You have heard... in response to a direct question put by yourself to an expert for North Yorkshire County Council, that he regarded the village of Flaxton as making a contribution to the historic setting of York, that it had a greenbelt function.... You have heard of the historical circumstances attendant on some of the villages, and you have heard of the beauty of them. We have ranged wide. Thaxton, Flaxton, Sand Hutton, Upper Poppleton, they have all come before you. Sir, today you have before you what I believe is the most important village still existing... close to York, which has, over a considerable part of its area, extant at this day... a medieval character and feel. Skelton is a very special village towards its north side. Sir, Skelton has made its contribution to York's housing problem in the past. An inset was at one time created for Skelton, and it resulted in a considerable amount of building on the south side. That building is not in character with the main part of the village to the north side.... It is quite obviously a twentieth century excrescence, however good it may be in itself as such.... Sir, Skelton has taken all of that that it could possibly stand, without destruction. To envisage any modern development at all on the north side would be catastrophic, having regard to the very special properties which there exist, qualities which contribute, undoubtedly, to the historic setting of York.... Skelton is a village whose... residents are proud.... They are increasingly aware... of their heritage. The Village Trust is a respected body which has been in existence for many years.... learned contributions have been made, and in that connection, I need only refer to some which are part of the appendices for the case before you today,... notedly the contribution made following recent research by Mrs on archaeological matters of significance to this particular area.... I could go on for some time sir, but I will now proceed to the technical planning matters.... I'm a Bachelor of Science in Estate Management in the University of London, and a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. My first main appointment subsequent to the War was in the Planning Technique Division of the Headquarters Technical Directorate, in the then Ministry of Town and Country Planning, St James's Square. During the later part of my career, I was University Estates Officer to the new University of York from the university's inception in ninety sixty three until my retirement.... Skelton is a village with a long history and an attractive character in the area of the church.... It is here that William the Conqueror is said to have bribed two friars to help him gain access to the City of York after he had besieged it unsuccessfully. In eleven sixty six one David le, the Keeper of the King's, was granted an allowance and certain rights here. The church,... which is a gem of early English architecture, and which with the green is the focal point of the village, was built about twelve forty seven, aided by the treasurer of York Minster. There are many stylistic aspects which are reflected in this.... The coverage of the conservation area, which is one of the earliest created in North Yorkshire, dating from nineteen seventy two, not nineteen seventy as written,... is limited to that part of the settlement which has notable village character and contains listed buildings. It includes the present D thirty nine site, near to the sixteenth or seventeenth century Skelton Manor House, and it has important archaeological and nature conservation interests as described in reports.... Skelton is well within the general area of the approved York greenbelt, and is a small free-standing settlement that was washed-over by the greenbelt in the draft Southern Ryedale District Plan of nineteen eighty one. This plan underwent the full consultation stage and was employed for over ten years for development control purposes.... The Greater York study did not designate Skelton as an area for expansion until two thousand and six, and no proposal exists in other plans for the making of an inset into the greenbelt on the basis of the need for expansion. Sites D thirty nine and D forty are in any case not located within the built-up area of the settlement in terms of Greenbelt Plan Policy Four.... Sir, in making reference to erm policies which erm have... relevance to the question of the... status of the two sites we're concerned with, I will start with those which are part of the statutory plan, that is to say the North Yorkshire County Structure Plan approved by the Secretary of State, and then proceed downwards to the more recent documents which do not employ. So in paragraph six I start with the C S P.... [reading] The north side of the village could not accommodate additional development without detriment to its basic form and character... in the terms of Structure Plan Policy H Three. []... As mentioned in paragraph twenty three of my proof, an appeal decision relating to land immediately east of D thirty nine referred to the unsuitability for development... of that area,... [reading] Since the character of the village would be seriously harmed [].... Policy H Four of the approved county structure plan precludes any development which is more than small- scale.... Structure Plan Policy E Four, and er erm... that is a correction sir, I have E Five down there, [John:] Thank you. [George:] Structure Plan Policy E Four provides that conservation areas will be afforded the strictest protection.... [John:] Can I help you Mr? What what are you looking for? [George:] Thank you, I do apologize sir. Erm... [John:] Right. Is it E Four you're looking for? [George:] Er no sir, er E Four I will take as read. But we now have erm following research by the Yorkshire Wildlife Trust in relation to the document that I have described as appendix eight. Erm... the reference on page two of erm [cough] the Conservation Officer's er letter, Mr 's letter of the fourth of February, a reference to Policy E Six of the County Structure Plan, erm which in his expert opinion, very firmly covers sites like this one.... Er I think that er I will not read any more of that letter at present, but er certainly it's not only E Four but E Six er of the C S P which applies here. [John:] I would be grateful if at some point Mr you were to deal with er Doctor 's er most recent comments on the Greater Crested Newt, since of course I've only just had those er more or less on coming into this room, and I haven't had a chance [George:] Yes. [John:] to read it or think about it. [George:] Yes sir. Erm I will in fact deal with that now as an aside, a very necessary one too. [John:] Could you start off by telling me which pond it is we're talking about? [George:] Yes. [John:] Because I just want to be sure. There are two ponds of course which are shown on There is the much larger pond [George:] Yes. [John:] to the east of Oakwood, and the smaller one west of Skelton Manor Court. [George:] Yes. We're talking about the one within erm the er area known as D thirty nine sir,... [John:] I thought it might be. [George:] er which is immediately west of Manor Court. Erm... sir, I don't know whether you and my friends erm on the bench opposite had an opportunity last evening of erm having glimpsed at Tomorrow's World, but [John:] I fear not, I was too busy reading your proofs. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [George:] Oh thank you sir, I'm much obliged for that. Erm... I lighted on it almost by accident, and er it was very interesting in that erm... the Great Crested Newt was featured, as a result of the action of the Secretary of State in refusing an application by British Coal for open-cast coal mine. And the reason was that er part of the area at a pond near the was erm... an ancestral home of the newt. Erm a reference was made er by the by British Coal to erm er their erm absolute willingness to provide ponds elsewhere. The Secretary of State was not convinced er that er a habitat would be taken up er elsewhere. And sir, the letter which you have before you er dated twentieth April from Doctor, is very much on that tack. We noticed that as one of Mrs 's appendices er there was a reference to a willingness by one of her clients to provide other ponds, [cough] were development to er proceed on... the area known as D thirty nine. And erm... er Doctor has looked into this matter, and you will see in the fourth paragraph of his letter of the twentieth [tape change] is obviously highly selective and. [John:] You can take a newt to water, but you can't make him swim. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [George:] Thank you sir.... Er sir, I will leave you to read the rest of that letter.... Alterations have been deposited to the County Structure Plan, and erm that took place before this hearing er before this enquiry opened. Policy E Two of the proposed Structure Plan alteration number three applies to all land outside existing built areas and countryside outside the greenbelt. And this policy would therefore preclude the development of D thirty nine and D forty. [plane overhead] [speaker001:] , could you just er wait for a second? [aircraft noises] [George:] Well I I think probably I can... compete with the Tornadoes now by raising my voice. [speaker001:] Right, thank you very much, that's. [George:] Yes? [speaker001:] Thank you. [George:] Erm and Policy E Two provides that development in the open countryside will not be permitted.... It goes on in more detail but that is the basis of it. So that erm would appear to preclude development of D thirty nine and D forty in any case, no need having been established. Reserves of potential development land in such locations are not provided for in any policy. We now turn to Southern Ryedale, sir. Southern Ryedale Local Plan Policy C One Three would preclude the development of D thirty nine as the development of that whole area would not enhance the character of the conservation area. I think it's worth actually looking at that policy.... It reads, [reading] In conservation areas, permission will only be granted for developments including changes of use, especially from residential from residential use, providing that they enhance the character of the existing buildings in terms of design, scale, grouping, materials, and will not cumulatively substantially increase the generation of traffic, parking and other activities, beyond the environmental capacity of the conservation area []. Sir, it is my opinion that any development in... area D thirty nine, which is wholly within the conservation area, would have those deleterious effects, and the same applies for D forty two D forty two.... Continuing with the Southern Ryedale Plan,... Policy E N V One... normally precludes new development outside the existing built-up areas in the absence of exceptional circumstances. It reads, [reading] New development will normally be permitted outside the existing built-up areas only where it is essential to the needs of agriculture or forestry, or there are other exceptional circumstances [].... While as settlement within the greenbelt, development could not normally be permitted on D thirty nine and D forty, as these are outside the built area in the terms of Policy G B Three, which we have oft considered at erm this enquiry.... Policy H Seven applies in the event of Skelton being an inset area... when any development would have to be within the settlement, and no more than small-scale, precluding D thirty nine and D forty. It is submitted that the whole of Skelton Village should be looked at as a unity,... that there is extreme environmental value over its north part,... and that were the village inset into the greenbelt, the inset boundary should be precisely as shown in the deposit copy of Southern Ryedale's Local Plan.... [Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr please.... [speaker005:] Mr, you're probably aware... that the deposit plan inset boundary for Skelton... is the same as that was shown in the consultation draft of the greenbelt plan.... [George:] Er yes I am.... [speaker005:] [cough] And you will probably be aware... that at the consultation draft stage, which shows the same boundaries as are in the deposit plan, both the Parish Council and the Village Trust supported... the inset boundary as shown drawn in the consultation draft.... Were you aware of that? [John:] Can I be clear what you mean by Mr? When you say Supported, do you mean they didn't object or do you mean they [speaker005:] No. [John:] actually supported? [speaker005:] They made representations... supporting the proposed inset boundary for Skelton, both the Parish Council and the Village Trust. [John:] Thank you. [speaker005:] It's er it's page one hundred and three of the consultation draft, report on the consultation. [John:] Do I have that document?... I don't think I [speaker001:] No you may not [speaker005:] Not at this stage in the enquiry sir, I'm not going to produce any great er any any documents. Were you aware of that er... Mr? [George:] I was not aware of that. I came into the Skelton case at a much later stage. Erm I would say however that there has been far more consistency about the view taken of the need for greenbelt protection on the part of the bodies and individuals I represent than has been shown by the two planning authorities judging from all the changes that they have propagated. [speaker005:] And at the deposit stage,... erm Mr, Skelton Village Trust made objection to site D thirty nine?... Having previously... supported... the site D thirty nine being within the inset? Do you know when they changed their mind? [George:] No.... [speaker005:] Do you know why... er the Parish Council made no objection to site D thirty nine being included within the inset at the deposit plan stage? [George:] No. [speaker005:] Do the Parish Council object to site D thirty nine being shown within the inset?... [George:] As instructed, erm I present a case which is unified on behalf of all the bodies and persons I represent. There is an objection to the whole of D thirty nine and D forty not being within the greenbelt. [speaker005:] Well y you'll appreciate why I've asked the question er Mr, because they supported it, they made representations in support at the consultation draft stage, they didn't object at the deposit stage, and yet today, as I understand your evidence, you're telling us that they do object to site D thirty nine being shown within the inset. [George:] The objection, I repeat, is a unified objection, but I have no doubt that earnest consultations will have taken place not only by the bodies I represent in the past, but also by your own authority. [John:] I'm a little concerned here Mr. It it does seem to me that the... Parish Council are of course an an elected body, who will if they have views on this subject no doubt have formal minutes which will set it out one way or the other. I'm wondering whether this might be an exceptional case, where er during cross-examination Mr might take instruction from his clients to find out what their minutes actually say. It must be a matter of record. [speaker005:] Well i i indeed. So that was... going to be my next question, [John:] I apologize Mr. [speaker005:] as to whether or not there were any [John:] . [speaker005:] Er as to whether there were any recor if there are any record or minutes as to when er the the change of mind occurred, er... because plainly there there has been a change of mind.... Now... Er well th er th... members of the Parish Council if there are any present as I imagine there are, will have heard my question. let's proceed and perhaps erm at a convenient moment we could take instructions as to er what resolutions if any have been made in this regard. [George:] Sir I will take this on board, but I think it comes rather badly from an authority in fact both authorities which have so shown so many confusing changes of mind about this area in the whole process since the first plan was issued, that the er details of the consideration by one of the constituent bodies of this erm objection er should be er examined er in such detail. Erm we don't know the details of the consideration that has been given by the authorities, what we are concerned with is what they are now proposing. What I believe you should be concerned with is what the erm persons I represent, bodies I represent, now wish to see happening with regard to these two sites. [John:] I think Mr what I would like to see, I don't want to go too far into the history, but I would just like to be sure that er bearing in mind this complex history given on behalf of those you are representing, that the views you are putting forward are the er current views of the Parish Council as expressed in their formal minutes. I w that is all I want to know. [George:] Yes sir. [John:] As a matter of fact I'm sure.... [speaker005:] [cough]. Mr, you and I have... debated in the past er in this room er whether or not exceptional circumstances are necessary to define an inset boundary for a village which in the sketch plan of the greenbelt to have been shown as washed over.... We've had that debate before haven't we? [George:] Yes, we've covered various subjects er more than once, er so much so that er I would be much obliged if you would er focus on a particular instance that I could then have an opportunity to recall. [speaker005:] Well Mr, your memory appears to be very short. We debated it yesterday. [George:] Right, I know now what you're referring to. [speaker005:] Er you I take it you haven't changed your mind and you still maintain that exceptional circumstances are necessary, because that is how you view, how you read paragraph nine of P P G Two? [George:] Yes, and that is because we have an approved structure plan which indicates the general extent of the greenbelt, and we're not talking here about an inner boundary or an outer boundary, we're concerned with a pre-standing settlement.... [speaker005:] You erm... understand I think, or will understand Mr, that if these sites are not included in the greenbelt, that's to say if they are shown as part of the inset, so far as the greenbelt local plan is cer is concerned, they have no other designation, that's to say the greenbelt local plan doesn't purport to er allocate or to designate the land for any other purposes. [George:] Correct.... [speaker005:] It's simply the conclusion that the land doesn't serve any greenbelt purpose. [George:] Yes that would be your reasoning, yes.... [speaker005:] Now the questions we have to address here today Mr, er are whether or not er this land, these two parcels of land, serve any greenbelt functions or not. That's the principle issue between us isn't it?... [George:] Not entirely.... I would not exclude a consideration of the greenbelt functions served by the area, but it is not for us to question the correctness of the approval by the Secretary of State for the Environment of the general extent of the greenbelt for York. A general extent of greenbelt within which this area lies. Therefore, unless excluded from the greenbelt by a particular process, all land in this area must be assumed to have a greenbelt purpose.... [speaker005:] Well Mr, that would apply to er any land lying within a six- mile radius of the city centre. [George:] Apart from the considerations which I mentioned a few moments ago, it would indeed. [speaker005:] Well is... er Mr the issue which the inspectors ought to be er addressing themselves whether or not this land serves a greenbelt purpose, or not?... [George:] I said a few moments ago that I would not exclude consideration or the need for consideration of the greenbelt purposes served. What I attempted to tell you was that there is essentially no region that in respect of any land which lies within the general area of the statutorily approved greenbelt, its mere existence within the greenbelt must be taken to mean that it has a greenbelt function. [speaker005:] But y you a are asking the inspectors to proceed on the basis that all land within the six-mile radius of the city centre serves a greenbelt function? [George:] Unless, under some process, it has been excluded from the greenbelt, yes. [speaker005:] And it would be excluded from the greenbelt because it didn't serve a greenbelt function? [George:] It might be excluded for various reasons. [speaker005:] Well what's another reason?... [George:] The most obvious is that er an area had been inset because of the need for expansion of a settlement. [speaker005:] That wouldn't serve a greenbelt purpose? [George:] It would not in the future as a result of that subsequent building. That is your Haxby-Wigginton case. [speaker005:] You do recall our argument yesterday. [George:] Haxby-Wigginton, which has been allowed by Ryedale District Council, as the result of Or its predecessor, as the result of the creation of an inset, to develop to the size of Malton. [speaker005:] One of the... er matters that er one needs to apply one's mind to in considering whether or not this land serves a greenbelt function or not, is to look at the land and assess whether or not it is more closely associated with the village or more closely associated with the er agricultural open land beyond the village. [George:] No. There is no necessary requirement to do that. And although it may be one means of looking at the site, it is not an essential part of determining greenbelt function. [speaker005:] Is one of the matters to which the inspectors ought to be applying their mind... whether or not this land is more appropriately regarded as countryside or part of the village? [George:] No, for the reason given in my last answer.... [speaker005:] Is one of the matters to which the inspectors ought to be applying their mind Would development... of the site... these sites amount to encroachment into the countryside? [George:] Indeed so. [speaker005:] Well how can you decide that, without first deciding whether or not this land is part of the open countryside or part of the village? [George:] It is not necessary to incorporate the concept of... being part of. It is simply necessary to ask whether the matter the whether the land is open land or not open land. [speaker005:] The issue is whether or not the land is open land or not open land? [George:] It is essentially as simple as that.... [speaker005:] And... all open land therefore... Does it follow from what you say that all open land necessarily must serve a greenbelt function? [George:] I would never in a planning matter, readily make an absolute statement like that. In nearly all matters of physical planning there are exceptions. But I would say that the way to look at this site is to ask whether it is part of the built area, in other words whether it is built on, or whether it is not part of the built area, in other words it is not built on.... [John:] Well that was the question that Mr asked you a few minutes ago wasn't it,... er Mr? [George:] Sir, at that stage, the emphasis seemed to be erm a connection er... whether the connection was principally with other land outside or whether the connection was with the settlement, rather than the nature of the land itself. And my answers were in that sense. [speaker005:] Do you regard [John:] Er so sorry Mr. [speaker005:] I'm sorry sir. [John:] Er forgive me interrupting, but I I I don't understand the word that you're using Mr. When you say land is built-up, presumably you do not mean simply that there is a building that there has to be a building on the land. Er to a greater or lesser extent, land within the curtilage of that building er can also be described as built-up. Is is that correct?... [George:] In general terms yes sir, one would look at the curtilage of a building, yes.... [John:] . [George:] But if on the other hand the curtilage were particularly large, erm then er it it were otherwise unbuilt er it would not of necessity form part of the built area of the settlement, if the situation were on the periphery. [John:] What I'm trying to understand you'll appreciate Mr, is the difference between the test that you are putting forward, er which is whether or not it is part of a built-up area, and the test that Mr is putting forward, whether or not the land is part of the village. At the moment I'm not entirely clear what the difference is between these two forms of words. If you can help me more on that, er that would I'm sure assist my judgement. [George:] I would say sir that my approach is neither. It is to look at the characteristics of the land itself, rather than to associate it of necessity with the land on one side of it or the land on the other side of it.... [Harry:] When we look at the characteristics of the land itself, do we have to decide whether it's countryside or not countryside? [George:] You do not necessarily have to decide that. [speaker005:] Well what are the characteristics of this land? [George:] These... sites are small fields.... [speaker005:] One's a paddock. [George:] A paddock is defined in the nineteen ninety concise Oxford as a small field. [speaker005:] Therefore a paddock.... [John:] I don't think we need to particular distinctions. [speaker001:] . [speaker005:] Your... The site C can you look at appendix two of er Mrs 's er... appendices please,... Mr?... [John:] While you are finding that, could I... make a general request of the counsels. It would greatly assist me er if I could have a copy of a one to two thousand five hundred plan showing these lands without any er heavy lines on them. I'm having some difficulty working out where fences go because they're obscured by these twenty foot wide er... lines.... [speaker006:] Sir I've got one here. [John:] Ah. I if that could be copied er perhaps er that would be of great assistance.... Thank you Mr.... [Harry:] Er Mr, could you just repeat [speaker005:] I er appendix two [speaker001:] Er Mrs, yes. Right, thank you. [speaker005:] In order to focus in on... I don't think that's er Mrs 's appendix two, but i i it [John:] It it's the bigger it's the one with the bigger scale, yes. [speaker001:] ... [John:] Presumably nothing turns on which plan [speaker005:] No I I don't think it does,i save that one makes reference to features on a particular plan [John:] Er yes [speaker005:] I think it may help.... [George:] Right, yes. [speaker005:] You've got it, have you?... Do you s you can see where... it's indicated on the plan where topic area D thirty nine is? [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] You you see the land to the... er generally to the east of it where there's the large pond?... [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] A substa substantial area of open land which is shown there as being within the inset... of the village? [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] That land you obviously regard as being properly included within the inset?... [George:] I've not made any comment about Skelton Hall.... [speaker005:] Do you want to make any now?... Can you assist us? Do you regard that land as being within properly included in the inset or not? [George:] I've not had the benefit of walking round the grounds of Skelton Hall.... [speaker005:] And the er... the boundary to the north of topic area D forty nine, indeed to the north of topic area [George:] You said forty nine. [speaker005:] Thirty nine, I beg your pardon. Thirty nine, and topic area D forty, you'll be familiar with those boundaries? [George:] Yes.... [speaker005:] Trees, hedges, trees, and there's a track on the northern side. [George:] Indeed.... [speaker005:] And the boundary along the... western side of topic area D forty... is the A Nineteen [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] and er the the vegetation alongside the A Nineteen. [George:] Yes.... [speaker005:] And those are... perfectly... satisfactory boundaries for greenbelt purposes aren't they? [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] Defining greenbelt purposes.... One of the points you make in your... er evidence... erm Mr is that because... topic area D thirty nine... is shown as being within the conservation area, that it ought to be included within the greenbelt.... That's right isn't it? [George:] On that point, I would say that... there are... a number of considerations which arise as the result of that site being within the conservation area that militate against development in themselves, and this is in general well recognized on your side, and by the er er by the City Council. [speaker005:] And... you're on... you're supportive of the conservation area and its boundaries? [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] Can you look please at your a appendix one,... in your bundle of appendices?... [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] And if we turn... er to the last page of the first appendix, we can see the boundary of the conservation area. [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] It's shown by the... erm large dotted line, and we can see how it... er follows the boundary of topic area D thirty nine. [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] Would you turn back one page... please, and look at... Two pages I beg your pardon. Turn back two pages, and look at paragraph four of the report... which we can see is headed [reading] Description of Conservation Area []. Have you got that? [George:] Yes.... [speaker005:] Can you turn over the page again now, I want you to direct your attention to paragraph four point six... of this report,... which reads [reading] The boundary proposed for the conservation area is limited to that part of the settlement which retains its village character []. [George:] Yes. [speaker005:] Do you agree with that? [George:] I have no reason to disagree. Yes.... [speaker005:] Thank you Mr. [Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr please. [speaker006:] Thank you sir.... I shan't detain you long Mr.... Mr, erm paragraphs... twenty four... er to thirty of your proof draw our attention to the existence of the conservation area which was being debating a matter of moments ago. Yes? [George:] Yes. [speaker006:] Paragraph thirty one you deal with access difficulties. Paragraph thirty two and thirty three you deal with proximity of listed buildings. Paragraph thirty eight... you deal with er ecological interest, and paragraph forty, archaeological interest. I think that's a fair summary of paragraph. [George:] That's right. [speaker006:] None of those factors, er I hope we can agree, have any relevance at all do they to the issue of whether a site performs one of the five greenbelt functions?... [George:] The answer to that is not straightforward. You started with paragraph twenty four, which deals with the conservation area. [speaker006:] Yes. [George:] The characteristics Er this is a general observation. The characteristics of a conservation are are usually characteristics of special quality in environmental or building terms, and as such they are likely to... promote a contribution to the quality of the setting of York where they occur within the greenbelt area. And that of course is the prime purpose of the York greenbelt.... [speaker006:] I must have been misguiding myself for a very long time Mr. I'd always understood that land should only go into the greenbelt if it was necessary to be kept permanently open, by reason of it performing one of the five purposes. Now again, where do I find in any government guidance a suggestion that the fact of the existence of a conservation area is directly relevant to the determination of whether or not land performs one of those five purposes? [George:] You have heard my opinion that in general terms, the existence of a conservation area is an indication of the likelihood of a contribution being made to the special character of the settlement and therefore to the setting of York, which is the prime purpose or the prime function of the York greenbelt. [speaker006:] Well, [cough] as far as one is concerned with the A Nineteen, er isn't it fair to say that the northern and western boundaries are so er constructed with hedges and trees that in fact while er er one is travelling along the A Nineteen one doesn't actually have any meaningful view of the conservation area in any event? [George:] Mr, it is not necessary for a passing motorist to be able to appreciate the qualities of a settlement that he is passing. It is sufficient for the quality of that settlement to be such as to inherently improve the setting of the city. [speaker006:] Can you see York from within the conservation area?... [George:] Certainly.... [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [speaker006:] We'll deal with Mr 's answer if you don't mind. [Harry:] he can erm answer for himself. [speaker006:] Mr, you've taken issue with the conservation area. Of course I dealt also with a large number of other factors, highways, environmental considerations, archaeology. I take it from the nature of your answer that you would in any event agree that none of those other factors which you concern yourself with have any relevance as to whether or not the land performs a greenbelt function?... [George:] Certainly listed buildings do. As regards highways, they do in this case because the nature of the road pattern in this part of Skelton is such as to contribute materially to the characteristics of this ancient part of the village. I would refer you to the late. Erm... it is a contribution by those er road patterns and the characteristics of the lanes, Church Lane in particular, Northfield Lane, that contribute to the quality of the environment.... And we are talking about this environment, and the contribution it makes to the city of York. We are not talking about whether one can appreciate the city of York itself from here.... The quality of Skelton is what we're talking about. [speaker006:] Well I have your answer Mr, but I don't think that continuing this national.... You remind us in paragraph twenty three of an earlier decision letter.... And in that you er remind us of the view of the inspector that er this area has a strongly rural character. Yeah?... You have that? [George:] Yes. [speaker006:] Isn't it fair to say that that in itself does not justify greenbelt designation, what is important is if the site forms part of the countryside and makes a contribution to it? [George:] Here again I think that you're in danger of drifting from the essential feature, which is that in the absence of a requirement to take land out of the greenbelt, the whole of the area er within the general extent of the greenbelt as approved by the Secretary of State erm has a greenbelt function. [speaker006:] Well I know you'd love to debate that with me, but we devoted a whole morning to it yesterday so I'm not going to. [George:] With regard to the inspector's decision to which you refer, it should be borne in mind that he was concerned with the effect which development would have, and where development would be... suitable or unsuitable. And he said that he did not consider that Skelton should be allowed to expand so far northward. He was speaking of the area around Northfield Lane, north of Oakwood, which was a new settlement concern within the buildings themselves. [speaker006:] Yes.... Mr as I read your proof,... you presume that by excluding D thirty nine and D forty from the greenbelt, that these sites will be developed.... You make that assumption and it's it's essential to your case, is that... is that fair?... [George:] What I would say is that the power of the local planning authority to resist development on these sites would be materially reduced were the initial negative presumption against development afforded by greenbelt status removed from them. [speaker006:] Well that is self-evidently true. [George:] Er I can't hear you. [speaker006:] That is self-evidently true. One accepts that.... The simple fact is you presume, do you not, that these sites are going to be developed? [George:] I do not make that presumption. My presumption is that there is a suggestion that development would be facilitated rather than hindered by the removal of the greenbelt protection. [speaker006:] Well it's just as I read your paragraph fifteen point two, you say [reading] To exclude sites D thirty nine and D forty from the greenbelt presupposes the expansion of Skelton on its northerly perimeter [].... Nothing ambiguous about that is there? You're assuming it is going to be developed along its northerly perimeter. [George:] The movement of the boundary which you seek to create is possible only under the terms of Policy E Ten. Policy E Ten requires that the boundary be moved only if a need for expansion can be established. [speaker006:] I hear what you say, and you know why I'm not going to debate that with you again today.... You say in your proof, paragraph forty three, this is really the last point I'm going to deal with,... that the amendment to the deposit copy erm ignores several of the policies in the Southern Ryedale Local Plan. Do you have that? [George:] I have paragraph forty three. [speaker006:] Erm C Forty One is one of the er... policies which you say is ignored by the suggested amendment. [John:] I'm sorry, C Forty One? [speaker006:] C One, sorry. C One.... Do you have that in front of you Mr? [George:] I have C, yes. [speaker006:] C One is a development control policy, is it not? [George:] It is. [speaker006:] Can you e please explain to me how a site's exclusion from the greenbelt in itself breaches a development control policy?... [George:] Er it certainly doesn't do that. It is simply a case as I said in my summary that er er C One is a policy that is applicable, because it's a conservation area. [speaker006:] Mm. But of course there's nothing in national policy which creates erm a prohibition... upon development either in or proximate to conservation areas, is there? [George:] No, but what I have done is to give you my expert opinion that any developments within the conservation area er... within the D thirty nine part of the conservation area would be likely to be destructive of the character of the ancient part of the village. [speaker006:] I hear what you say, what you're aiming to do now, without ever having seen any form of proposal. But what about D forty?... [George:] D forty is very closely associated with D thirty nine.... [speaker006:] You see, paradoxically, C One little one and C One little three... in fact give a strong measure of protection to the er character of the conservation areas do they not? [George:] Yes.... [speaker006:] E N V One is another policy you say our... modification offends. That's page sixty two of the deposit. [George:] Yes, I have it. [speaker001:] Mr. [speaker006:] Er E N V One. Again, how does exclusion of a site from the greenbelt offend E N V One?... [George:] You use the word Offend. Er could you refer me to a place where I have erm er [speaker006:] Well you say it ignores several local plan policies. So let's put it another way, how does the exclusion [John:] I I think su surely Mr the next sentence makes it quite unambiguous. [reading] The proposed change would be contrary to this policy [], Mr says.... [George:] Yes. My answer to that would be that er since the only permissible reason for pushing out this inset boundary would be a need for expansion, expansion involves built development, and built development would not seem to be within er the possibility of er... Policy E N V One as well as within the possibility of er other policies [speaker006:] E N V One [John:] O one moment. Mrs, I I c Mrs, I can hear your evidence as clearly as Mr 's at the moment I fear. [speaker006:] E N V One applies... to land that is perceived as forming part of the countryside. You're aware that on this side of the room Ryedale have stated in terms in their proof that they do not perceive this land as being part of the open countryside. The reference is four point two point seven. There's nothing inconsistent is there, in Ryedale's position, having made that judgement about these two pieces of land? [George:] I'm not criticizing er the erm view of the planning authorities on the grounds of lack of consistency in their interpretation of policies. I'm merely saying that their interpretation of certain policies is not coincident with my own. You refer to Policy E N V One. [speaker006:] Mm. [George:] The reference in that policy is to... development outside the existing built-up areas. [speaker006:] Mm. [George:] I regard open land of this size as being outside the existing built-up area of Skelton. [speaker006:] That's a matter for judgement isn't it? And the inspector will have to make that judgement in this case. [George:] Yes, I have given you my judgement on it. [speaker006:] E N V Three is another one that er... that might be offended. You say our modification is contrary to E N V Three. Yea, E N V Three as I read it is er... a pure and simple development control policy. How do you say excluding this land from the greenbelt is contrary to that development control policy? [George:] Well, E N V Three is basically a damage limitation exercise, and I think that erm the qualities of this area are so great that er it would be... im impossible to envisage... [speaker006:] So if I [George:] a situation relating to a new development under which there would not be damage. [speaker006:] So if I short er short circuit the rest of my cross examination on these various policies that you say er we're in... erm... we're in some measure of conflict with, your answer would be in in relation to E N V Eleven and E N V Twelve which you also cite, do I put it fairly your answer would be this? Look I cannot conceive of development taking place on this land without coming into conflict with those policies. That is the essence of your position is it not? [George:] Before I answer that, I must er address myself to E N V Eleven, which relates to ponds,... [speaker006:] Right. [George:] and E N V Twelve,... to habitats.... [speaker006:] Mm. [George:] I think that the summary which you gave is fair also in relation to E N V Eleven and Twelve, yes. [John:] Can I be clear please I I'm sorry Mr, can I just be clarif clarified as far as E N V Eleven is concerned, which pond this is in terms of names? [speaker006:] It's not it's not. This pond is not listed under E N V Eleven. [John:] Er it isn't either of the er ponds [speaker006:] No. [John:] listed in there? [speaker006:] I think that's right isn't it Mr? [George:] Yes. Erm I think that the exercise on ponds is not of very long standing. It's an ongoing exercise, and er we have produced er sufficient scientific evidence to show that this pond is of tremendous value. Doubtless the [tape change] [speaker006:] not prohibit development? [George:] I rely in this matter on the evidence of experts in er wildlife conservation, and that is.... [speaker006:] I don't really think there's anything to be gained by any further questioning. Thank you Mr. [Harry:] Thank you very much Mr. I think we'll take a break now ladies and gentlemen for... fifteen minutes please.... Thank you. [tape change]

[speaker001:] Right ladies and gentlemen, we will no will now continue. Erm... Mr,? [George:] Sir, I don't know whether this would be a convenient moment, but I have taken instructions on the the [Harry:] Oh yes, quite. [George:] the which er was raised er [Harry:] Yes. [George:] and also raised by your colleague erm with regard to the decisions of the Parish Council. [Harry:] Yes. [George:] Sir, reference to my appendix number five makes it clear that there was some lack of knowledge er by those in the village er round about June nineteen ninety two as to what was going on... in Ryedale with regard to the site north of Skelton. And you will see there as appendix five [Harry:] Yes. [George:] a copy of a letter from the Chief Planning Officer of Ryedale, to [Harry:] Yes. [George:] Mr who is on my right, and who was previously the chairman of the Southern Area Planning Committee of Ryedale District Council, but not at that time,... which explains that erm a change was in hand.... [Harry:] Yes. [George:] And the Parish Council was thereupon alerted to this fact... and held a meeting on the seventeenth of July nineteen ninety two,... the... relevant part of the minute of which reads as follows. It is minute number fifteen. [Harry:] Yes. [George:] [reading] The council oppose proposed changes relating to amendment of the greenbelt plan by excluding two fields on the northwestern edge of the village from the greenbelt. The council felt the proposed inset boundary of the village should remain as published in the original consultation and proposals documents [], and that in itself indicates, sir, a minor degree of confusion, sir. The Parish Council even at that stage was not fully aware of the situation. They were referring to the deposit copy.... [reading] should remain as published in the original documents, and were surprised at the proposed changes raised at the eleventh hour prior to a public enquiry, in September nineteen ninety two. The original proposed boundary of the greenbelt was tightly drawn against properties in the village, and the proposed changes are inconsistent with this. Also, the proposed changes would intrude upon the Skelton conservation area []. That sir is the end of that minute. [Harry:] Yes, right. Thank you. [John:] Could we have copies of the minute, do you think? [George:] Er w you wish to have a copy of the whole document sir? [Harry:] No. [George:] Right. [Harry:] Well not necessarily but if copies could be made of that page. [George:] Yes. [Harry:] Yes. Thank you very much.... [John:] I'm still a little bit in the dark. I'd like to read read the minute. [George:] Yes. Right. [John:] Erm... perhaps we can leave it till I have read it then and [George:] Yes. Right. [John:] then if there's anything more to be said I'll I'll say it then. [speaker001:] Yes, right, thank you very much. [John:] Right thank you. [Harry:] Mr, do you have any questions? [speaker005:] Sir, I adopt the cross examination. [Harry:] Right, thank you very much.... Right, well we'll move on then please. Mr Ward. [speaker006:] Thank you very much sir. I'll call Mrs then to present... [Harry:] Yes, thank you. [speaker006:] the County's evidence. [John:] Thank you very much. [speaker006:] Erm... Yes. Yes please. [speaker001:] ... [speaker006:] Mrs, I'll ask you... if you would please to read the summary of your proof of evidence from document N Y Two Three Seven. [speaker007:] [reading] Objections to the deposit plan have been received concerning two adjoining sites at the northern end of Skelton, topic area D thirty nine which is a paddock, and topic area D forty which is a small field between the paddock and the A Nineteen. In respect of D thirty nine, the objection is that the paddock should be included within the greenbelt. The objections to D forty are that the field should be excluded from the greenbelt. [] [John:] Could I say at this stage,i is anybody having difficulty hearing at the back? C could I suggest firstly you move forward to the front row er on both sides, because th there's little point in er... asking Mrs to speak louder if.... Thank you. [general hubbub as people move forward] Move closer to the public rather than further away from them.... [speaker007:] [reading] In April nineteen ninety two, the County Council reassessed the greenbelt boundary around Skelton and resolved to propose a change to exclude topic area D forty from the greenbelt. Two objections have been received to the proposed change.... Obje objection site D thirty nine extends to some one point two five hectares and is bounded on three sides by hedgerows, trees and tracks, and on the south side by the boundary with existing property. Objection site D forty is an area of grassland that is that is split in two by a post and rail fence. It extends to some one point four hectares. Hedges and trees mark three of the boundaries, with the southern boundary being a post and rail fence along Church Lane in the curtilage of. The County Council considers that the two sites do not fulfil any greenbelt purpose. In the County Council's opinion, the northern boundary of the site, which comprises variously a line of trees, hedge and track, effectively acts as a screen between the site and the open agricultural land to the north, and can adequately prevent any sprawl of the village or encroachment onto the open agricultural land, and will not therefore prejudice the special character of York. None of the other greenbelt purposes are relevant to these sites. The deposit plan greenbelt boundary and amended, is a well-defined durable boundary, and is therefore an appropriate boundary. The County Council has noted that noted the representation that the greenbelt boundary around Skelton should follow the edge of the built-up area for its entirety. However, the County Council takes the view that the objection sites do not fulfil any greenbelt purposes, and should not, therefore, be included in the greenbelt, whereas elsewhere around Skelton, any relaxation of the boundary would result in encroachment into the open countryside, to the detriment of the greenbelt.... The objectors have raised various development control issues concerning the site. While the County Council has noted these points, it does not consider that they are relevant to the definition of greenbelt boundaries. For the reasons outlined above the County Council remains of the opinion that the two sites to the north of Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt and included within the Skelton village inset. [] [speaker006:] Thank you Mrs. [Harry:] Thank you very much. Mr,.... [George:] Mrs,... you attach considerable importance to the physical characteristics of boundaries, don't you? [speaker007:] drawing of greenbelt boundaries, attention should be paid to ensure that the greenbelt boundaries are enduring. To that extent, they should follow physical features on the ground.... [George:] And when you have looked at Skelton as a whole,... you have concluded,... apparently, from your paragraph seven point seven,... that any relaxation of the greenbelt boundary elsewhere around Skelton... would result in an unwarranted extension of the built-up area, contrary to the objectives of the York greenbelt. For what reason do you believe that... a relaxation, as you put it, of the greenbelt boundary from the deposit copy to the line you now propose, north of this important village, would not do so? [speaker007:] In as much that er in the County Council's opinion these two s these two paddock, fields, whatever you call them, to the north of Skelton are visually more related to the village, whereas the other land around Skelton is clearly open agricultural land and therefore forms part of the open countryside around Skelton.... [George:] Am I to believe from that that you regard the characteristics of the open countryside around Skelton as being more important for greenbelt purposes and the contribution to York than the land within the boundary you now propose? [speaker007:] But the purpose of the of the greenbelt is to prevent... encroachment into the open countryside. As I have just said we don'the County Council does not consider that these two fields form part of the open countryside around Skelton. [George:] Are you not by adopting that view, Mrs, abandoning the concept of the importance of the character of Skelton in relation to the setting of historic York? [speaker007:] Not at all. I expect that... the paddock in particular contributes to the character of Skelton, and inclusion in the conservation area. However, these two sites are more part of the character of Skelton, and their inclusion or exclusion from the er inclusion in the greenbelt wouldn't add any further to the character of... Skelton and this part of the area.... [George:] Development of this land would detract from the character of Skelton wouldn't it? [speaker007:] That may be.... [George:] What then is your primary reason for reducing the safeguard against development which greenbelt protection affords, bearing in mind that Skelton is a village of considerable character? [speaker007:] Well,... the purpose of the County Council is to draw up a greenbelt local plan, and therefore it is a question of whether or not the sites fulfil or do not fulfil a greenbelt purpose.... The County Council is not concerned with the future uses of the land. [George:] How do you square that view with the view of your colleague that the whole of the village of Flaxton performed a greenbelt purpose?... [speaker007:] Sorry, I'm not aware of Flaxton. I mean Flaxton's beyond the six-mile limit for the greenbelt. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. [John:] Could you keep your voice up please Mrs? I I'm having difficulties and I'm sure those at the back are. [speaker007:] Sorry, it's cos I'm turning this. [John:] Well if if you aim for the microphone, [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] not because of if i any importance it has, but simply because in that way the centre of the room. [George:] Mrs, the primary purpose of the York greenbelt is to have an effect on the character of historic York, is it not? [speaker007:] It is to protect the historic character of York. [George:] And [speaker007:] That's one of the purposes, yes, [George:] And it has... And it has has it not been admitted in at least one of your background documents that the character of the settlements round York have a part to play in that? [speaker007:] Yes, in our document N Y Two which sets out the objectives of the York greenbelt in more detail. Erm it is the character of the s setting of the villages withi er within their rural hinterland which is part of the character that contributes to the character of York. [George:] And therefore it's not just a question of protecting the open countryside round the village?... [speaker007:] It is the protecting the character or the setting of the village within its... rural hinterland. [George:] Is that setting greatly affected by the incidence of hedges and fields? [speaker007:] Part of the character, obviously, is going to be the land use... er er the land the land use and the features within the land. Any land. [George:] The question surely is whether land is open country, not whether that open country is bisected by a boundary, a good hedge or a good line of trees, which would undoubtedly be a suitable greenbelt boundary. Surely the question is whether the land on each side of it has the same... greenbelt function, or different greenbelt functions? [speaker007:] Well I've er as I've previously said, in the County Council's opinion, these two fields do not perform a greenbelt function, they are visually... and physically separate from the open agricultural land both to the north and to the west... of the sites. [George:] Visually and physically. I will therefore put to you a hypothetical question. Would the contribution which they make relative to each other be altered were the characteristics of the boundary between them less marked, no trees, no substantial hedge?... [speaker007:] The character you By that you mean the character... the boundary [George:] The contribution [speaker007:] that links the two? [George:] Yes. Would the contribution made by this land on either side of this boundary you now propose, be altered were there in fact no marked physical boundary between them? [speaker007:] In terms of their greenbelt function,... the... the... the the boundary between them has no effect on... the greenbelt purposes. It is the boundaries to the north alongside the A Nineteen. [George:] It follows therefore, does it not, that one has to look at the characteristics of the land you now propose to take out of the greenbelt, in the same way as the land immediately to the north, which you propose should remain.... [speaker007:] In as much to decide whether or not these sites have a greenbelt function. [George:] It's it's not the boundary that is important to look at, it's whether the land is open land, isn't it? [speaker007:] It's whether the land fulfils a greenbelt function. Open land doesn't necessarily mean that it should be in the greenbelt.... That does not necessarily follow. [George:] And the land to the north does form a greenbelt perform a greenbelt function? is that [speaker007:] Yes. [George:] so? [speaker007:] Yes. [George:] The land that you're now proposing to take out does not. [speaker007:] That is correct. [George:] Despite the fact that both are open land. [speaker007:] Well as I've just said, open land does not necessarily mean that it serves a greenbelt purpose. [George:] Nonetheless, you draw this distinction, despite the fact that the characteristic of both those areas is the characteristic of openness. [speaker007:] Yes, but th in the County Council's opinion these two sites are more visually... related to the character or of Skelton village, where the land quite clearly agricultural land and unrelated to these three fields. [George:] When you answered the question a moment ago about the importance of the boundary, the size of it and so on, you indicated that it was not. [speaker007:] I indicated that the boundary between the two sites... was not important in determining whether or not Or in the County Council's opinion had no effect for the determination of whether or not these sites played a greenbelt function. [George:] You know that I do not necessarily go along with your concept of visual character in the way that you use it, but would the visual character be altered in a way that would cause a coincidence of greenbelt function were that important hedge not in existence on the north side of D thirty nine? [speaker007:] . [George:] If there were no hedge, let us say, on the north side of D thirty nine, would the visual character to which you have just made reference be altered? [speaker007:] Well it's very difficult to say what the because presumably the character of the paddock would have changed and the character of the conservation area likewise and it may well be that the use of that site wouldn't be a paddock. It's difficult to be to comment on a hypothetical situation. It may the removal of that hedgerow may not just... may have other knock-on effects. [George:] I'm not entirely clear about your answer. Let me put it another way. Is it your view that... the area known as D thirty nine... ceases to be part of the open country just because a hedgerow and some trees obscure the view from it across more open country? [speaker007:] That is one The... boundary to the north of these two sites is a very firm distinct feature, and very. It effectively cuts off the land the open agricultural land from these two fields and therefore visually it makes the paddock more part of Skelton Village.... [George:] You are, are you not [speaker007:] If you took it away I I it would be difficult to say quite how it would affect. [George:] You are therefore uprating the importance of this hedge and er trees very greatly are you not? You are giving them higher importance than the character of the ancient part of Skelton. [speaker007:] But the trees are there. Tha a they add to that they are part of the character of that area. [George:] And because they are there, the risk of development taking place in this conservation area at some future date should, willy-nilly, be allowed to be increased? Which it would not if the trees and the hedge were not there. Is that your case? [speaker007:] Well as... I've said it's difficult to comment different situation the physical features are different. Because it may well be that that land wouldn't be considered being part of the conservation area. [George:] But trees and hedgerows are part of the open country, they are an essential feature of the English countryside as we have in the known it are they not? [speaker007:] Yes, they are part of the features of the o open countryside, but in this particular case the proximity of Skelton Village to that boundary and the juxtaposition of the... of the of the houses around that area and the er other features make this paddock part and the adjoining part of the more... visually part of the village. [Harry:] Mr, [speaker007:] . [Harry:] Sorry. [LAUGHTER] I was just going to say, [] I think Mrs Mrs 's really a answered the question as far as she's able to do. [George:] Yes. There is one further concept sir which er Mrs has obviously developed er which is a new concept and it is contained in her paragraph eight point four. Mrs, you state that [reading] Open land does not necessarily mean open countryside []. This is very interesting. Would you please elaborate? [speaker007:] Well it means exactly what it says.... [George:] You don't wish to elaborate... for us? [speaker007:] You could have you could have open land within within a village, it doesn't necessarily mean it's open countryside.... [John:] Are you referring, for instance, Mrs, to the football ground, which I notice is in the village? [speaker007:] Mm.... I was commenting in response to the objector's proof in this particular case [LAUGHTER]. [John:] I was just taking that as a working example of the concept which you're putting forward,.... [speaker007:] Yes, I mean I'm saying that there's obviously open land within built-up areas. That doesn't necessarily follow that it is open countryside. For example the land at Skelton Hall could be regarded as open land but no one is suggesting that that should be part of the greenbelt.... [George:] But your Council does admit that D thirty nine and D forty are open in character? [speaker007:] [LAUGHTER] In as much as there are no buildings on them, yes,. [George:] They're open in... Yes. They're open in character because they are not part of the built-up area of Skelton. [speaker007:] They're open in character because they're not built upon. [George:] Yes, exactly.... You mentioned that... permission has been refused... erm... in connection with development on D thirty nine on four occasions by Ryedale. Is your Council in full agreement with the attitude behind those refusals? [speaker007:] The County Council as I'm aware was not actually consulted on these particular applications, and therefore I'm not really in a position to be able to comment as what the County Council's position. [George:] .... Thank you Mrs.... [Harry:] ? [speaker001:] No thank you very much sir.... [John:] Well I think Can I just clarify Mrs the position as far as the Council is concerned? If I understand it correctly, the inset for Skelton is... made not because of any question of Policy E Ten, but to recognize the existence of a substantial built-up area, which in the County Council's opinion er does not cannot perform a greenbelt function. Is that correct? [speaker007:] That's correct, yes. [John:] And therefore, in the County Council's... erm opinion, the test which I need to adopt when I go to the site again, is to look at it and... er simply make a decision as to whether or not in my opinion the land is more properly a part of this built-up area which cannot perform a greenbelt function, or is a part of the general extent of greenbelt around there, and therefore... by definition performs a greenbelt function. [speaker007:] That's right. [John:] Well you've set me a relatively straightforward test if that is the test. Thank you.... [speaker006:] Mrs, just just er a point.... Going along the road, er on the A Nineteen, from the north towards er the village er... if one assumed that there were to be some development on site D forty, would you be able to see it from the road?... [speaker007:] Well as you approach the site from D er from north on the A Nineteen, you can catch glimpses of and also of the... houses to the south of Church Lane, and therefore any... further development on that site would be seen against the existing backdrop of.... [speaker006:] by the vegetation. [speaker007:] That's right..... [speaker006:] Yes. Does it make does it matter that the land is elevated above the road, above the A Nineteen? This site is elevated above the road. [speaker007:] It may just mean that you might see... Er I mean is elevated above the A Nineteen, and indeed you can catch glimpses of it [speaker006:] But the site itself. There i there is a gentle... [speaker007:] Yes [speaker006:] slope, [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker006:] level [speaker007:] That's right.... [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker007:] But the screening along the A Nineteen is particularly dense.... [speaker006:] Right, thank you very much Mrs.... [speaker008:] Sir, while Mr [John:] Yes. [speaker008:] is taking his seat, I'm causing to be handed out this plan. It's merely a larger er larger plan showing... how the settlement sits er within the surrounding field network and field pattern. [Harry:] Right, thank you. [John:] Thank you. [Harry:] Thank you very much. [John:] A as it is simply er an ordnance sheet, I I assume there's no need to give it er a document number? [speaker008:] I do I don't believe so sir. [John:] Thank you.... [Harry:] Right, thank you very much. [speaker008:] . Yes, Mr, would you read your summary please?... [speaker009:] [reading] The objection sites are located on the northern side of Skelton Village. They consist of a horse paddock and rough grassland, three point four hectares,... point five one acres, and are bounded generally by trees, hedgerows and rear gardens of residential properties. The objectors object on the grounds that the village of Skelton should be washed-over by the greenbelt, that the site should be identified as greenbelt, and therefore it should be excluded from the built inset, and that the development of the site would have an adverse impact on the surrounding area.... The District Council have not addressed the issue of washing-over the village of Skelton within the greenbelt as this is a new issue not raised by. The District Council considers that the objection sites do not perform any of the greenbelt functions. The District Council also considers that the northern, western western boundaries of the sites, which comprise a line of trees, hedge, and track, are appropriate, well-defined, and defensible greenbelt boundaries which separate the site from the open countryside beyond it. The District Council considers that the noninclusion of the sites in the greenbelt is because they do not perform a greenbelt function, and not an indication that the sites are suitable for development, particularly as sufficient housing land has been identified in Local Plan. The District Council considers that the sites may have a role to play in the long-term... strategic land reserve, although at this stage as no calculations have been carried out as to the requirements it is difficult to assess what role they might play. Furthermore the amount of white land identified in the Local Plan is a measure of whether land performs a greenbelt function, and not simply a long-term strategic land reserve. The District Council considers that many of the object remaining objections are not greenbelt issues, although they have taken the opportunity as follows. That any future development of the sites would not be subject to normal planning controls cause detriment to the conservation area, local listed buildings, or the archaeology and natural history of the sites. The traffic impact of any development could be accommodated without serious detriment to the surrounding area,... but although the above constraints are not seen as insurmountable, they may well act as a deterrent to development. The noninclusion of the sites in the greenbelt does not constitute policy of Southern Ryedale the greenbelt, and that the views of those who have not contributed previously should not be addressed. For the above reasons, the District Council pleads that the two sites north of Church Lane Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt, and i included in the inset. [] [speaker001:] Yes. Remain there remain there please. [Harry:] Thank you, Mr please.... [George:] Mr, in these shifting grounds that we perceive around us as a result of the deliberations of your authority and North Yorkshire County Council, it is difficult, is it not, always to be sure of the reasons which have caused the... changes in view? You say that the District Council believes that the two sites to the north of Church Lane Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt and included in the inset for the village. The case for the objectors is that they would wish the boundary proposed by your own authority, at an earlier stage, to be the boundary. Now the words that the two sites should be within the greenbelt, Mr, a momentous change.... [speaker009:] Well I think it's inevitable that er during the local plan process that erm that changes do occur. The reason for for local plan consultation is such that erm it gives the opportunity for objectors to make comments and otherwise, and that District Council and the the County Council erm should consider er objections and it's i it it happens that erm the local authorities you know can change their mind as the process goes along. [George:] And they take account of comments, do they? [speaker009:] That's true. [George:] It was at the very next stage wasn't it that you had this switch from a boundary which we could accept to one which we profoundly could not accept? Was that as the result of comments?... [speaker009:] Er as far as I'm aware, it was, yes.... [George:] Could you explain the reason then behind your council's change of view? [speaker009:] Well in the in the final analysis of the of the er the er considerations of these two sites the er area of Ske Skelton in general, erm it was considered that they that they did not perform a greenbelt function. [George:] Did you search around for any other reasons, such as the mention of a possible strategic reserve?... [speaker009:] I think that er I think the question of a strategic reserve erm falls er as secondary to the to the fact that the the land or the sites do not perform a greenbelt function. I've said in in in evidence that er in my evidence that erm... that the sites may have a a role to play. But that wasn't the reason for for f identifying the sites as white land. It was principally because they didn't perform a greenbelt function. [George:] Whereas previously you thought they did?... [speaker009:] That was presumably the District Council's view at that time, yes.... [George:] What was your own view?... [speaker009:] Well it's difficult for me to say because I wasn't involved with the at that time. [George:] Most convenient for you.... How can you be sure that any future development of these sites would not have a deleterious effect on the conservation area, the listed buildings, the archaeology and the natural history?... [speaker009:] Well it's not impossible that er that that developments er can take place erm without erm without having some effects, but what what I'm basically saying is that erm it it er it wouldn't be a serious effect acceptable in normal planning terms. [George:] And you have great shortage of [John:] I'm sorry,o o one moment. I think there was an extra Wasn't there a a negative in that sentence which crept in unnecessarily? Could could you just say it again, Mr? I I you said, It's not impossible. I don't think you meant that did you?... Can you just sa Just say it again and let me see if I've got it I've got it right. [George:] Yes. Erm I... personally sir did not detect any double negative there. Erm I think [John:] Maybe. [Harry:] Mr, er I as so far as I got, [reading] Not impossible for development to occur with these constraints []. It's not impossible for development to take place even with these constraints. [speaker009:] Yes. Yes [Harry:] That's what you [speaker009:] Yes. [Harry:] I don't know whether that's precisely what you said, but that's what the intention was. [speaker009:] Yes. [George:] I suggest that... that is the meaning I got, Mr. It is a matter of degree isn't it Mr? There is a possibility then. You think that there's equally a possibility that damage might be minimized? [speaker009:] Yes.... [George:] How great is your need for additional building land at Skelton? [speaker009:] As I said in m in my proof, er sufficient land has been identified in the in the Local Plan period. It is not We're not proposing that these sites should be allocated for development. [George:] Has your Council determined any policy with regard to the period after two thousand and six, in relation to the current plan?... [speaker009:] In terms of. [George:] In terms of building development. [speaker009:] We haven't, no we haven't we As I said, no calculations have been carried out.... [George:] Do sites exist elsewhere in your area Mr that are not so encumbered about by ancient history, natural history, conservation areas,... which might equally form a strategic reserve for your undefined post-two thousand and six requirement? [speaker009:] There may be.... [George:] Then why do you plump for one which has these impediments?... To look at it from that point of view. [speaker009:] Well as I've s as I've said earlier, erm what we're basically saying is that because these erm sites do not perform a greenbelt function and er they then fall into a white land situation, that that white land is a is an area of land that becomes er at the end of the plan period in two thousand and six, er they are areas which could be considered development. [George:] But you're looking at this from an inset point of view aren't you?... You have gone along with the County Council, they want to move what they conceive to be an inset boundary. I dispute that. It's an inset problem, and therefore one is looking inevitably at the reasons for which you can moved an inset boundary, supposing that one already exists, which it doesn't, but let us suppose it does. The reasons for moving are relevant.... [speaker009:] Well the question... as far as inset er is concerned, we've we've already touched on this morning and I believe it was discussed yesterday. Erm the decision to inset the village of Skelton erm has ha h has been taken by the authority, the er the consideration and assessment of where the boundaries of the inset should lie erm is what we're considering today. [George:] Yes, and the move is proposed to include land which is not at present built on.... [speaker009:] That's true yeah. [George:] And the reason... permitted reason under Policy E Ten, the oldest statutory policy governing the movement of boundaries of insets, is the existence of... a need for that. [speaker009:] Well I think I I think you're getting into the into the wrong argument. [George:] However, you do recognize that Policy E Ten and its requirement for proof of need is important in regard to the boundaries of insets? [speaker009:] Well I I. [George:] Have you pushed out a boundary from the point of view of strategic requirements after two thousand and six anywhere else in your area? [speaker009:] Not that I'm aware of, no. [George:] So Skelton is immensely favoured, looked at from your point of view? [speaker009:] It's a other sites erm w would come into consideration at that at that time erm in the long term.... It's not been the principle er reason for for excluding sites from the greenbelt.... [George:] You say, Mr, that the constraints to which I've already referred may well act as a deterrent er to potential developers? [speaker009:] That's true. [George:] Do you think it would be a good idea to privatize planning control in the sense of letting it be up to developers to choose whether they should go ahead or not on the basis of what they conceive to be constraints, or that that should be within the entire realm of the local planning authority? [speaker009:] I was simply making a comment at your your suggestions about the likelihood of development of the site. Er [John:] Mr, I I I have many matter to consider in my report, so I let's not widen it even further into... this rather wider philosophical matter. [George:] Certainly sir. There is however one er... overriding point here Mr. That is, you recognize, do you not, that greenbelt protection includes the concept of the initial negative presumption that is not contained in any other area of planning? [speaker009:] . [George:] Thank you very much.... [Harry:] .... [John:] Yes, can I just be... clear er Mr. You say as I understand it that er... the possible er use of this land as a strategic reserve is not the main reason er for excluding it from the greenbelt. Is it a reason? Did it form any part of the Council's?... [speaker009:] I would think not.... [John:] Well, I I need to be sure on this. Er are you saying that it is any part of the Council's case that this land th it it's... it is er a... possibility that having this land as a strategic reserve er can er... is of assistance, or are you saying that it is simply er having included it in, it might form part of a strategic reserve? Er er er two rather different approaches. [speaker009:] Yes,.... [John:] I asked Mrs a question about the appropriate approach that I should make to this site in her opinion. I don't know if you I hope you remember that question, it was rather a long one. I hope you remember even more her answer to it, because the question is, [LAUGHTER] Do you agree with it? [speaker009:] I think you'll have to re have to repeat the question. [John:] Oh dear. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Right, let me see if I can get it the same. [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] I do recall something of it now, but I can't details. [John:] Well, the point was... as I recollect it, er that my understanding as far as the County Council's case was concerned, was that er the village was not inset for E Ten purposes, it was inset to recognize what the County perceived as the physical reality of this being a substantial built-up area which fulfilled no greenbelt functions. And the the question before them, and therefore before me in r considering the objections, is whether or not these sites are part of the general extent of greenbelt around the village, or are a part of this village er which does not as a whole perform a greenbelt function, and that's what I'm looking at when I make my site visit. [speaker009:] Yes. [John:] I'm sure that wasn't the same wording [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] but I hope it was the the gist of it, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got it wrong. Er... i i i er Now do you agree with Mrs 's answer? [speaker009:] Yes, I do. [John:] Good.... [Harry:] Right I've got no questions for you Mr, thank you very much.... [speaker008:] Case for the District, sir. [Harry:] Thank you very much.... [speaker001:] . [speaker010:] Currently sir erm I I do propose Mrs. [Harry:] Yes. [speaker010:] sir, firstly because there is a slight divergence on matters of approach, and secondly sir to deal with the factual matters. [Harry:] Right. [speaker010:] What what I propose not to do is to ask Mrs to read her summary. [Harry:] Right.... [John:] C can I just be clear though er Mr. If er Mr or I wish to ask questions on the original proof... or about what what the witness is telling you,.... [speaker010:] Mrs, first of all can I invite you to look at your appendix number five?... Er sir these are matters which arise out of the questions you last asked.... Mrs, what the local authority excluding D thirty nine and D forty of course is a matter for them. Can you assist us on the approach which you have adopted in terms not only of greenbelt function, but of the need for a strategic reserve? [speaker005:] Yes. Er the the basis of the erm objection er [tape change] and erm justify long-term development needs not just in total, but by recognizing making a major contribution to total land use but also. Erm that was the the written basis of the objection. Erm it's also clear from correspondence I had meetings with officers of both councils following those objections, erm at which we talked specifically about the greenbelt functions of this. So both items were certainly er lodged. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker010:] Both both aspects were lodged. I can't say you know where the balance erm council authority. Er and can we in fact see your views as to the strategic reserve set out fully on page two of that particular? [speaker005:] Yes. yes in that they're ex expanding. [speaker010:] Thank you. The second matter I wi wish to raise with you a arises out of Mr 's appendix two,... and in particular paragraph twelve. [Harry:] Right. Could you just give us a moment to find that? [speaker010:] Of course yes. [Harry:] Thank you.... Appendix two, paragraph twelve. [speaker010:] it's the inspector's letter of September nineteen ninety. [Harry:] Yes, right.... Thank you.... [speaker010:] We know from the appearances that you were present at that enquiry. [speaker005:] I did. [speaker010:] If we then look at... paragraph five, that's the first page of appendix two,... [cough]... we see here [reading] The appeal site has a long planning history. It lies within an area designated as planning permission since nineteen sixty four []. [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker010:] I don't know whether it would be helpful, sir, if Mrs could indicate on the plan recently handed in to you [Harry:] Yes. [speaker010:] where that nineteen sixty four planning permission... [Harry:] Right. [speaker010:] lies. [speaker005:] Erm... [Harry:] That would... be helpful. [speaker005:] Perha perhaps if I the appeal site wedge with the erm... intending to build a road through it. The nineteen sixty four application. [John:] . Er let me just say that aloud [speaker001:] . [John:] haven't got the plan in What has just been pointed out to me is that the er smaller site, that is the one with Oakwood on it, which I'm sure is familiar to er anybody present, that's just opposite Skelton Manor and Court, and the larger site was the land to the east of Oakwood incorporating this much larger pond w with what appears to be an island in it, er running right up to the boundary of the conservation area, I think. Yes. [speaker005:] Yes. Yes. [speaker010:] Now bearing those those facts in mind, can we look at what paragraph twelve tells us? [reading] Several local objections state that the planning applications for the dwelling at the northern end of the site and the Council implied that they would they would reconsider applications which site. [] Just pausing there for a moment, can you point out to Mr Inspector where that er building was to be developed,... Mrs? [speaker005:] Yes, the the erm A as I've just explained, the the appeal site on that occasion was the the smaller enclosure, [speaker010:] Yes. [speaker005:] erm now now including Oakwood. The Council at before the enquiry and during the enquiry erm suggested that a better site for the development would be within erm the larger earlier site, erm specifically at the extrusion the northern corner or northeasterly corner, where I erm where I've marked. [John:] Er just be just below the track? [speaker005:] Yes. [John:] Er is that it? [speaker005:] Yes. [John:] Yes. Yes. [speaker005:] Right right in right in the top corner, erm the furthest possible... point away from the village. And... paragraph twelve, erm towards the the middle, erm you can see the sentence in paragraph twelve [reading] To my mind, these sites [], which were in that top corner [reading] lie well beyond the present... I'm so sorry []. [John:] C before we just Sorry interrupt. Just so that we can get the erm that sentence in context. That that was what was being put forward by the planning authority, then in the next sentence we have [reading] Most of the suggested sites are included in the conservation area in the village, and are separated from the built-up part of the village []. That's sites in the plural. [speaker005:] Yes. [John:] Again, where were they? [speaker005:] Er along the northern boundary. Er in in the in the vicinity of the corner that I've marked with a star.... [John:] A a and then we have the sentence which you were just reading. Can you read it out again? [speaker005:] Yes. [reading] To my mind, these sites lie well beyond the present built-up limits of Skelton, and land to the east, north, and west has a strongly rural character. [] [John:] Er in i in the light of your understanding of where those particular sites the objection sites were, how do you interpret that sentence? [speaker005:] Well th th I I'm I'm quite clear in my mind that the areas that the Inspector was considering then were areas beyond the track, to the north of the, outside even the greenbelt boundary presently proposed by the two councils. [John:] [cough]. I I'm not clear still. He he says he he mentions three directions, east, north and west. West would appear to suggest D thirty nine. [speaker005:] .... [John:] I I see. it's the usual problem whe when the site is not aligned with the points of the compass. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. That's right sir. [John:] It's a problem everyone writing decision letters finds, and erm it does seem to be a problem. [speaker005:] Well first can I can I say this. The the erm a great deal of time at that enquiry was taken up with the alternative sites proposed by the Council erm and their suitability in relation to the. And... we were looking at how this top corner of the map related to the surrounding that those those erm reference points east north and west do relate to the open land outside of that.... [speaker010:] Thank you. [Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr please.... [George:] Mrs, would you be so kind as to?... [speaker005:] Yes.... [George:] So that was indeed an location. [speaker005:] It was suggested by the erm... chairman of the then Southern Area Planning Committee.... [John:] He wasn't giving evidence was he? [speaker005:] He erm... he wasn't giving evidence at the enquiry, but erm it was at his suggestion that I was asked to meet with the Chief Planning Officer prior to the to talk about alternative sites.... [George:] And certainly, Mrs, D thirty nine is west of that site. And the inspector did mention west, didn't he? [speaker005:] It's west of that site yes. It's a good a good long way west of the site which I've marked... by a star. [George:] Yes.... What importance do you attach, Mrs, to the observation of the District Council in relation to their erm District Development Plan which has for many years been used for development control, of the following text, which you quote in your paragraph three point six? [reading] In the case of Skelton [] [John:] O one moment please. [George:] Yes. Paragraph three point six of Mrs 's proof.... [reading] In the case of Skelton, it has in the past ten years experienced significant residential development. It is not considered appropriate that Skelton should expand any further, and therefore it is included within the greenbelt. [] Now forgetting for a moment that last sentence which we're not concerned with just at this stage, would you agree with that conclusion of Ryedale District Council? [speaker005:] It is it is it's a statement of fact that in the ten years preceding the time er when that comment was written, which was in the er mid-eightie mid-eighties, erm that had been the case, that's absolutely true. Erm whether And the District Council as you say clearly clearly considered it appropriate that it should not expand any further at that time. It's not a view that I particularly share but erm... it was their view at the time. [George:] Would you have shared that view with them at that time?... That [reading] It is not considered appropriate that Skelton should expand any further []? [speaker005:] I can't answer that, because erm there's certainly nothing in the text of the plan to suggest why it was not considered appropriate, erm and I don't know erm I I can't... instantly think what factors erm might have gone into that consideration. So I I don't I don't know what my answer would have been. Erm i it's a it's a very it's a very vague statement isn't it, [reading] It is not considered appropriate Skelton should should expand []. [George:] Er er you deal with cases all round the York area. You would presumably have been aware that Skelton had undergone a tremendous expansion on its south side? [speaker005:] It it's it's certainly er... Yes it's certainly experienced. [George:] So let us look at the present day, and to take this wording, do you consider that it is now appropriate that Skelton should expand any further?... [speaker005:] I don't think I can answer the question in that form. Is it appropriate that it should expand? I I think there is certainly capacity erm for Skelton to expand, or I wouldn't be sitting here supporting erm... the people I represent. Erm I think the the the two objection sites, D thirty nine and D forty, are suitable to a greater or lesser extent, physically suitable, for development. Whether Skelton needs to expand at the present moment is not for me to say. We're not saying, as you well know from my representations, we're not saying that these sites should be allocated for development now either in total or or in part, unless the Inspector feels that there is a shortage of housing land, that he needs to be looking for additional sites. What we're are saying is, There are the sites, they don't have the development constraints that I would to the extent erm that you believe erm they have, and Skelton and the two objection sites are very well located a whole range of service facilities and employment opportunities, and development on those sites would fit squarely within local plan policy. But I return to the point I make here, Mr, we're not saying that these sites should be allocated for development now, unless the Inspector. [George:] Two very comprehensive answers. Do you think that any other sites on the periphery of Skelton would allow for the requirement, however distant it may be, that you foresee, as well as or better than D thirty nine and D forty? [speaker005:] No.... [George:] And yet, other sites round Skelton might not have the same characteristics, with regard to environmental functions, in relation to the historic centre of Skelton, that these two have, mightn't they? [speaker005:] That's possibly true. Erm proximity to areas of character isn't in itself a constraint to development.... [George:] But in considering any possibility if development, would you agree Mrs that one must have regard to the suitability of one site versus another site in relation to damage which might be caused? [speaker005:] Well I I refer you to the answer I've I've just given you. You're making an assumption that damage would be caused erm by the development of certain sites, and that it wouldn't be caused by the development of other sites. I don't accept that damage is inevitable.... [George:] Would you be prepared to answer the question were it not related to Skelton?... And if I were to put it, If you have an opportunity of two sites and the development of one is capable of causing damage to existing characteristics and the other is not, would you go for the the one which would not cause damage rather than the one which would, or would you willy-nilly plump for either? [speaker005:] Well o well of course er one would go for the site which would erm, to follow your hypothetical question, not cause damage. The other sites erm or other site on the periphery of Skelton erm to which you drew my attention would have the potential if developed of causing a different sort of damage. Any any development has the potential to. I don't accept that is it necessary or even likely that it would that it would er The the damage which could occur by developing Skelton or expanding Skelton erm to the east or to the south would would be damage to to different aspects. Erm planning planning issues planning considerations. Erm so we do not erm immediately. [George:] Do you agree with the policy of the planning authorities that in general villages around York should not be expanded?... [speaker005:] That's a very sweeping statement. [George:] Yes it is. Er one has to exclude er... for example, Strensall, where tremendous development is proposed. But as a general statement it has been made by the authorities. Do you agree with it? [speaker005:] I I don't I don't agree with the the erm... general proposition that erm the character of every village within six miles of York erm is an important element or component of the character of the city. I think that's far too sweeping a statement. But you know perfectly well that I support the new settlement strategy, and therefore in consequence I do support erm general limitations on the growth of settlements and expansion of settlements within the greenbelt. That's not to say that I I believe that the villages er some of the villages are incapable of of.... [George:] Thank you, I am pleased to hear of your support for the principle of settlements which no doubt you'll agree with me would tend to safeguard settlements within the greenbelt.... [speaker005:] That's the the the very reason the new settlements strategy was accepted by the County Council after the County Council's initial opposition to it and their initial... erm policy in favour of the substantial expansion of villages close to York. [George:] Indeed so Mrs.... Now in your paragraph six point three you say [reading] It is not one of the functions of the York greenbelt to protect Skelton [].... It is however a function of Skelton to enhance the setting of York, isn't it?... [speaker005:] I I'm afraid I don't understand the question.... [George:] Do you agree that the characteristics of Skelton as we have considered them this morning,... make a contribution to the setting of the historic city of York?... [speaker005:] Very slightly. [George:] S I won't go into any attempt to quantify it, thank you.... Have you any view Mrs as to the contribution which the road layout, the layout of the lanes, and the characteristics associated with those roads and lanes, make to the medieval centre of Skelton?... [speaker005:] Do I have any have any view? [George:] View as to the nature of the contribution made by the road layout to the characteristics of the centre of Skelton? [speaker005:] The the the road network in the centre of the village erm is of historic origins. And the road network has dictated the pattern of development a around the roads,... and that in turn has has helped to form the character of the village. So I I don't... distinguish between the the buildings and the roads and say o one's important to the character and the other isn't. [George:] Nevertheless you do say, do you not, that it is reasonable for this enquiry to consider access to the site, to D thirty nine and D forty, in general terms? [speaker005:] In indee indeed I do, because if the if I say to the Inspector that erm if he feels there is a need to identify additional areas for residential development near to York in the short term, then I need to tell him that there are no overriding constraints to the development of these sites. [George:] I put it to you that any alteration of Church Lane at any point between the A Nineteen and the centre of the village would be seriously detrimental to the existing character of that area. [speaker005:] I don't agree with you. Erm the point that you put to me I think two or three questions ago wa was related as I understood it to the the alignment and the network of the lanes. Erm I accept that part of the character derives from the the wide verges, because that's reflect reflecting their physical appearance. Erm but in [George:] Their what? [speaker005:] in large measure the character of the lanes erm or or the importance of the lanes is in their their pattern, their alignment, and the impact that that has had on the distribution of buildings and spaces along them. And I I don't see a limited widening of Church Lane to any access into either of these two sites, were that to be required by the Highway Authority,a as having any significant impact on the character of the village. [George:] Erm so at least you agree that some widening of Church Lane, at least as far as Spring Hill Lane if not further, would be necessary?... [speaker005:] No. Nothing like as far as Spring Hill Lane. Erm... I think at at the at the very... erm most it would be necessary to widen erm Church Lane as far as the western boundary of Spring Hill Farm. And as I've said in my evidence, erm we have had engineering drawings erm produced erm to demonstrate. [Harry:] You mean you'd bring that access in on that western boundary? [speaker005:] Yes. [Harry:] Yes. [speaker005:] It it's an o it's an option. [Harry:] Yes ye yes, I realize these are options. [speaker005:] it's an option that would work. [Harry:] No I understand all that yes. I d I. [speaker005:] Erm I I me that that would have erm I believe very very limited... erm a very limited impact on the village, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker005:] and and no impact at all on on the central [break in recording] [John:] Mr has ve very vigorously explained his view that er you you can only inset for the purposes of E Ten. Wou would you go that far? [speaker005:] If if I... I think what I what I would like to say What what I think is that E Ten Erm it's very difficult to make this point, since it's an approved policy in an an approved structure plan, but I think E Ten's got it wrong. [John:] There've been several attempts to get E Ten right since nineteen eighty. [speaker005:] Mm. [John:] But they've still got it wrong? [speaker005:] Well I I I think that I think that's got to be right, because E Ten refers to where the need for development has been established, a nee a need for expansion's been established. Erm given that we're looking at a long-term greenbelt proposal and a comparatively relatively short-term Southern Ryedale Local Plan, erm I think it's very difficult to... for anybody to establish a need now,i in the terms of implied under E Ten, which is going to perhaps erm... not show itself erm for for twenty or twenty five years, in in terms of o of land allocation,la land... requirement. Erm... and I I just think th th the wording of policy E Ten is... It it doesn't square with er national guidance for erm... which requires areas to be left out of the greenbelt to provide for long-term development opportunities or development potential long-term development. Erm... I've said previously in this enquiry that I don't agree with the County Council's erm... notes on on E Ten, but really I I think that.... [George:] Thank you. If anybody had any opportunity of getting E Ten right, it should be the... Department which the Secretary of State to insert E Ten, because he is the highest authority in this. [speaker005:] You're not asking me to to and there therefore therefore [speaker001:] . [John:] merely to agree that the Secretary of State is always right. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] Er I I'm sure he is but... may not [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [George:] Er sir, I I just have er one further point here. Eight point one four point four. Erm I'm much taken Mrs er by your reference to there being [reading] Lots of nooks and crannies... where limited built development might go without causing harm to the character and setting of York []. Mrs, finally, is this one of your nooks and crannies? [speaker005:] No. [George:] Thank you.... [John:] Sorry. I'll let you finish. [speaker005:] That comment was made specifically in relation to the edge of the urban area of the city,... a as I've. [Harry:] Mr? [speaker010:] I've no sir.... [speaker001:] . [speaker006:] Oh yes, right. Er you say in your proof er Mrs that the site comprises two distinct parcels of land. Er are you referring there... to the character of the land?... [speaker005:] Yes. Erm ... there appears. [speaker006:] Yes. All of those? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker006:] . [speaker005:] and and from the... the land beyond.... [speaker006:] Er site forty's simply ungrazed... [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker006:] land? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker006:] Yes,. more and more. Yes. Right. Thank you. Erm... as you travel up and down the A Nineteen,... coming from the south er i er... Skelton appears very well developed, [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker006:] quite close to the road. Coming from the north,... er the... appearance of the village is rather different I think because it is masked to an extent by the existing vegetation.... [speaker005:] That that's right. But the [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] er you you made the the point erm earlier that the erm I think you said the objection site is higher than the [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] site forty is higher than the road, which is which is perfectly true. [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] But in fact parts of the village are higher than the road, and [speaker006:] Yes, yes of course. [speaker005:] it's always possible to see. [speaker006:] Yes of course, yes yes. No I'm just trying to... understand the implications of what might happen, supposing at some stage this land were developed. Right. So the site stands above the level of the road, and [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker006:] see whatever is on the site. This is correct? [speaker005:] Yes. I thi I think Mrs mentioned the erm the the density of the existing vegetation along the A Nineteen... [speaker006:] Yes, yes. [speaker005:] frontage. [speaker006:] Yes, yes. [speaker005:] Erm it's particularly dense as well along [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] the northern boundary of... of D forty, [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] erm. [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker005:] But the the the corner, as as as you travel along the A Nineteen, the the corner, the the northwestern corner of of... D forty [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] and is very very heavily. [speaker006:] Yes. Yes. [speaker005:] And [Harry:] Obviously we'll be having a look at. [speaker005:] And included within the site within within the joint site is the the belt of trees included poplar trees [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker005:] and... also have a. [speaker006:] Yes. Those poplar trees that actually occur on the boundary between D thirty nine and D forty,? [speaker005:] That's right, yes.... It but it's not just a row of poplar trees, it's it's quite a wide er mix. [speaker006:] Yes, I see, yes. Yes. Right.... [speaker005:] . [speaker006:] Yes, I'm not sure that... I I'm going to... at some stage. by a black line. [speaker010:] . [speaker006:] Oh yeah. Er yes, sorry. Sorry, yes.... Right, thank you very much. No more questions Mrs, thank you. [John:] I I have only one point I would like to raise, Mrs, and this is whether or not er you are in a position to give me any comments er in relation to the er colony of Great Crested Newts in this pond. Or or is the only evidence before me that which er was given by Mr? [speaker005:] Erm I I I did this morning but I've handed it back to the District Council access to their newt report, which was referred to a couple of days ago. Erm I could perhaps get. [John:] If there's anything more which is going to ass er ass er assist me in understanding it, er... I I I w would certainly find that helpful. I in particular, bearing in mind the point that er Mr i is making, that er newts seem to be as it were very choosy in where they er go, bearing in mind the existence of at least three other ponds in Skelton, I would like to know whe how... er why it is or whether it is that newts are only found in this pond, and whether or not er the the survey has shown anything in either of er in any of the other ponds. But that is perhaps a matter which is best looked at er over lunch.... Can I, before I adjourn the enquiry er for lunch, can I just raise one other matter which I would be grateful er for. I will raise it after consideration of er the Skelton issue er because it doesn't concern this in any way, but er I would like those concerned to consider the point. This concerns the question of written representations, er which I will be taking into account. As I'm sure... er you are aware, many objections are being considered solely on written representation grounds. Er I asked before the enquiry, at the pre-enquiry meeting, that I should have such er any additional representations before the start of the enquiry. Inevitably, er that has not been entirely acceded to, and indeed to some extent er I can hardly be surprised as events move on during the course of the enquiry. However, it had been my intention, and still will be my intention unless I am persuaded very strongly to the contrary, that when I close the enquiry, which I hope will be next Wednesday, I will have in my hands all of the representations, that is to say, both any additional re representations by objectors and the Councils' replies, before I close the enquiry. The effect of that would be that I would receive no further written representations after that time. If either Council receive anything additional, it will be a matter for them to take them into account along with my report. My report will not take er th these into account. Now, bearing in mind the very short space of time between now and the close of the enquiry, I want to be sure that as far as objectors and the council are concerned, that this is a course of action which is both acceptable and practical as far as they are concerned. I don't want you to give me your answers now, I am as it were giving you the opportunity now, over lunch, to consider this matter. It concerns you I think Mrs, I believe you have a number of sites where you are acting for objectors where you wish to make er additional rep representations. If the course of action that I am suggesting and ind which is indeed consistent with the course of action I have been suggesting throughout this enquiry is to work, then I need I would suggest tomorrow is probably the absolute latest for me to get anything from you, and to give the Councils any opportunity whatsoever to make any reply to them. Certainly it would be most unsatisfactory if I was to get your comments on Wednesday, so that the Councils couldn't reply to them. That that would plainly simply not work. I think I've suggested the problem now, and now I'm going to leave the parties to think about would be a need for expansion, expansion involves built developm think I'll under the circumstances I'll give you er the the normal time, and I will adjourn now until two fifteen to have a chance to think about that. The enquiry's adjourned until two fifteen. [break in enquiry] [Harry:] it is now two fifteen I propose to continue. [George:] Er sir you raised a point about erm ponds a bit earlier, and I have obtained some [Harry:] That's right, yes [George:] information, [Harry:] That's right. [George:] er thanks to Mrs, er during the er luncheon recess. Er would you wish to hear that information?... [John:] Good idea Mr. I was expecting that Mrs was going to tell us about it. You have the information then? [Harry:] Er you you're thinking about ponds are you Mr,n rather than newts are you?. [George:] Er I think that er... er Triturus Crestatus and ponds er in our present consideration go together sir. [Harry:] Right, yes. [George:] Yes. [Harry:] Fine, thank you. [George:] And we must remember that we are not talking about any newts, we're talking about very special newts, [Harry:] Yes. [George:] the Great Crested, [Harry:] Yes. [George:] a protected species. [Harry:] Yes. Yes. [George:] And a moment ago I had in front of me the relevant paper. it's escaped me..... The erm the gist of it sir is that English Nature er carried out er last year... a survey of ponds in this area, though we are not certain that they were able, owing to the exigences er created by the attitudes of certain landowners, er to erm investigate every pond in the area. I can however say that their conclusion with regard to the two other ponds at Skelton, which are mentioned in Ryedale policy E N V Eleven,... that is to say the ponds near Wrights Manufactory and er that near the Barratt development, are apparently not found erm suitable er by the Great Crested Newt, and are inhabited largely by mallard. Erm... I have already referred sir to the... investigations which are proceeding with regard to the ability to erm, as it were, encourage er this er amphibian to go to other ponds, and I would again call your attention to the state of the knowledge we have at the present time, which is that that is not possible.... [Harry:] Mr, does Mrs have anything to add [speaker010:] Well i i i if we I think Mrs can er... can assist. Could I just [Harry:] Right. [speaker010:] recall her? [Harry:] Yes, certainly, yes. It's alright, you can sit there Mrs, thank you.... [speaker005:] I I... knew of the existence of this of this report went to the enquiry on this Tuesday by mistake, but I two [Harry:] You've read it? You've read it. [speaker005:] two minutes ago. [Harry:] [LAUGHTER]. Right. [speaker005:] Erm... and and that's why I thought I'd be... more familiar... with it.... [John:] . [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Well I didn't know I'd got it. [Harry:] Well er no it's all right, we we've got it here now, so let's see what it has to say about it Mrs.... [speaker005:] Erm map one is a map of pond... ponds surveyed in connection with the production of this report. Erm... I don't know whether I haven't the erm [John:] Er just tell us what it says please. Er I I I... Otherwise we're gonna have to go through the exercise you've been through of identifying the right ponds. [speaker005:] It shows one two three four five six... ponds er surveyed er in the area of Skelton. Erm two of the erm... and it then... in a table... identifies... [Harry:] [whispering] Page twenty six? [] [speaker005:] Yes, page twenty six. It lists two ponds erm in Skelton with erm a total estimated newt population of eighty.... [John:] Which two ponds are they? [speaker005:] Erm one at the Coach House... and one at Church View. [John:] Er the Coach House one the one which we're talking about? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [John:] And the other one sorry, was Church View? [speaker005:] Church View. That that's somewhat towards the centre of the village. We we.... The the report also erm interestingly erm said that two thirds of the ponds in the parish of Skelton were visited. Erm... that's thirty one ponds. Virtually all of the rest remain unseen due to lack of permission. So erm if thirty one is two thirds,... another fifteen or so ponds [LAUGHTER]. There are some more ponds in in in erm... [Harry:] Yes, yes,, that's fine. [speaker005:] in Skelton. Er not all of them still existed, erm... and three of the ponds, eleven o of the eleven ponds... erm referred to in the... erm three of them were in gardens.. [John:] These are ponds which contain newts, you say? The three ponds?... [speaker005:] Two of the garden ponds Great Crested Newts.... And then there's a third pond where the report notes that [reading] Close access to Grange Farm was extremely difficult due to. So erm... yes there are ponds in Skelton and erm two of them are. [Harry:] Yes, fine, thank you.... Yes, thanks very much for that information. Yes, Mr? [George:] Sir, I have found the note. [Harry:] Yes. [George:] There is just one further small item of information relating to the findings of English Nature. That I understand is that the lake at Skelton Hall is too deep to be found suitable by the Great Crested.... [Harry:] Right, thank you very much. [John:] The only other question perhaps o on that one. Er Mrs, does the... the pond within D thirty nine lie within er land owned by one of your various clients? [speaker005:] Ye yes it it does, and I think I made this point in erm in my evidence that it lies at the extreme erm southeastern corner of the paddock erm and if if, This is making an assumption. On the assumption that newts spread out equally in all directions from the pond, erm part of their territory would be.... [John:] Yes. The question I I have is quite a simple one, and that is I would like to actually see this pond slightly closer quarters than I've been able to. I've been round the whole periphery of D thirty nine er other than the southern side. Er... is it possible for me to get closer? [speaker005:] Yes. [John:] I I so I just go in to the paddock? [speaker005:] Just go into into the paddock, yes. [John:] Wh where where is the entrance to? That is that the entrance near the Coach House or or [speaker005:] Yes. [John:] Ah. Thank you. [speaker005:] . [Harry:] swimming. We've we've been issued with snorkel masks I should say [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Harry:] investigations so it will be quite thorough. [speaker005:] I I can't... I can't speak for th for the for the temper of the horses. [John:] Oh I see, oh well in that case w we we will view it [Harry:] [LAUGHTER].. [John:] from from the Coach House end, I think. It s it sounds safer. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Thank you. [Harry:] Thank you very much.... Right, I think we... move on then please.... Mr, do you? [speaker010:] Yes sir. [cough] excuse me very briefly. [Harry:] Thank you. [speaker010:] Sir, it's our submission [cough] and the evidence of what you have heard and what you will see, that the two sites proposed to be excluded from the greenbelt... are functionally part of the village, and distinct from the land the open agricultural land to the north,... and are visually a part of the village, unrelated to the open countryside to the north.... Put another way sir, we say this. [cough] That when one approaches the village, in particular along the A Nineteen, which is the only public approach from the north, the objection sites read as part of the village and not part of the countryside.... And there is a firm boundary [cough] between the objection sites and the countryside, in particular, the farm track to the north of D thirty nine.... It follows, sir, in our submission, that neither of these sites performs a greenbelt function... and therefore fall to be excluded from the greenbelt. To that extent sir, the submissions which we make are, I anticipate, common with those which will be made by both of the promoting authorities. [cough] Sir, if you do come to the view, however, that one or both of these sites may have some as it were residual greenbelt functions,... [cough] then we ask you to bear in mind the matters raised, in particular Mrs 's appendix nine,... about the need in the longer term, that is, beyond two thousand and six in particular, for a strategic reserve. And that is a matter sir which we invite you to weigh, if but only if, you come to the conclusion that these sites may have some greenbelt function. Sir, to that extent er er my case is additional to that of the promoting.... Sir, the other matters which have been raised by Mr are essentially issues of development control,... unrelated to the issues of greenbelt function.... [cough] They sir will be considered, or may be considered, by the authority, but if they are sir, it will be in the context of concrete proposals... and in the context of a forum... which is appropriate to their discussion. And sir, [cough] a local plan enquiry, particularly where there is no specific allocation made, is not an appropriate forum... to apply development control policies to a wholly unformulated proposal.... Sir the mistake which underlies that part of Mr 's submission is a very common one, [cough] and it is the assumption that greenbelt is, as it were, the residual category to prevent development which one might, for non-greenbelt reasons, not wish to see.... For all those reasons sir, we invite you to report that these two fields should not remain in the greenbelt. [cough]... Sir, those are my submissions. May I add er a valediction, in the true sense of the word. Sir, this is the last day as I understand it of the greenbelt enquiry.... [John:] Y er the last day at which... the County will be formally represented, yes. [speaker010:] Er sir to that extent it is the last day of the enquiry. It certainly is sir the last day on which I shall be appearing at either of these enquiries. [cough] Sir, may I in particular you sir, thank you for the unfailing good humour with which you have conducted this enquiry. A and also sir, the courtesy which you have always shown to. And I can also say sir, I think without fear of contradiction, [cough] that of the hundreds of enquiries that I have done, this is the only enquiry sir which will have la left a lasting impression. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER]. Thank you Mr. [Harry:] Thank you Mr. Mr please. [speaker008:] Sir, I don't propose to add anything. You you've heard that er... the case between ourselves and er my learned friend on the left Mr are identical save in the one additional matter which he noted, and it's and I adopt his closing submission. [Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr please? [speaker006:] I've nothing further to add, thank you very much. [Harry:] Thank you very much.... Mr then please.... [George:] Sir, as has been known in other cases before you, there have been many [tape change] but what remains is the most important aspect of the whole, namely your visit to Skelton. Because it is on that occasion... that you will already have, and will on your final visit, have made up your mind as to the nature of the northern part of the village of Skelton,... the nature of the land immediately surrounding it,... whether it be a paddock, or a small field,... whether it be more associated in the minds of some with the open country, or in the minds of others with the village. An area which is at present not built on, which is open,... which has had greenbelt protection since nineteen eighty,... which it is now proposed should no longer have it.... Which it is recognized will thereby lose the benefit of the initial negative presumption unique in planning.... Whereby the task of the local planning authority, and the onus is on them without the initial negative presumption, the task before the local planning authority in refusing permission is made that much more difficult.... And why should this task be laid on them?... Two reasons have been suggested to you sir.... went so far as to almost in writing as part of the reasoning for the proposed change by Ryedale.... And that is a nebulous strategic reserve.... No mention... in the Greater York Study, no mention in any plan before us of what this reserve might be required for, or where it might be located. Only here has. Let's call it that. Sir, I invite you attach no importance at all to that ridiculous concept in relation to this highly important piece of land.... And sir the other strand which we've heard a good deal about has been the nature of the vegetative screen which occurs between D thirty nine and D forty on the one hand, and land to the north of it on the other.... Sir it would be a sad day if we determined matters of er greenbelt boundaries on the basis of relative screening.... Hedges and trees are a normal part of the countryside. I need say no more.... There is no dispute that that boundary is capable of being a suitable greenbelt boundary. But I believe from the written evidence that there is equally no dispute that the boundary which has existed for ten years, the tight boundary, is also capable of being a suitable greenbelt boundary if indeed there is to be an inset. When I say existed for ten years, er I I did make a slight mistake in that for ten years erm the village. However the reference has been made to the characteristics of that boundary, and although the authorities would prefer the characteristics of the one which they now propose, they do not say that the characteristics of the tight boundary are ones which are unacceptable.... And therefore we come back to the nature of the land in relation to the contribution it makes to the character of Skelton.... And to the consideration which you have had in other cases regarding the character of villages and the acceptance that they preserve the special character of historic York. There must be no doubt as to that conclusion.... Very recently we have regard to the wildlife.... Reference has been made to... the. Sir, the pond in D thirty nine has been shown to be a breeding place for the Great Crested Newt,... but it is also known that it migrates to other ponds,... several others, but does not necessarily breed there, but chooses... at Skelton.... Sir I believe that you should not overlook the view of the inspector relating to the... planning application within the grounds of Skelton Hall, when he made reference to land west of the site... concerned. I have no doubt myself that in the expansion of land to the west, er D thirty nine, and possibly D forty would, and I think that his comment that development should not extend so far north is relevant.... If indeed, therefore, this land performs a significant function with regard to the character of Skelton,... one should have regard to what the effect on that character would be if development were, development of any kind. And I have already given you my opinion.... It would be catastrophic.... Mention has been made as to the nonexistence of an allocation for housing... and as to the suitability of this forum for consideration of the effect which would take place... of development... with or without the existing allocation. Sir, I see no difference. One can make one's assumptions... about the effect of development on a particular piece of land on the basis of the best information available to one at one time. One does not necessarily need an outline or a full planning application in order to do so.... I'm quite clear that I do not need either an outline or a planning application in order to arrive at my conclusion that the effect of any development on these sites would be deleterious to the historic character of Skelton. Sir I commend to you the expert evidence relating to the historic character... and I hope sir when you visit this site, although it may look very different at this moment from the way it would have done had you been able to visit it after the originally scheduled date of this enquiry, when the daffodils were out, [John:] I did visit it that day. [George:] I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased. [John:] . [George:] I believe that in all seasons of the year... one would find that it had a most delightful character,.... [Harry:] Thank you very much Mr.... [John:] Well that concludes consideration of... the... Skelton topics. I would like to turn before adjourning the enquiry today, to the question of the treatment of the remaining written representations. Mr,? [speaker006:] Erm sir, yes. I mean... we certainly have views on this [LAUGHTER] er and er you have er encouraged us to express them. Sir er... you hinted that er if there are to be further written representations you'd be looking to directing a cutoff date, and you hinted at I think tomorrow as being one possibility... sir, [cough] so that you could leave this enquiry on Wednesday with all the papers you need and receive nothing more by way of written representation, evidence or any other documentation whatsoever. [John:] I put the suggestion. [speaker006:] Sir, we certainly would welcome a cutoff date tomorrow. We're not sure whether any further written representation or representations or evidence of any kind are going to arrive which might concern us, but we can't discount that possibility. But sir we do have some doubts as to whether we would be able to respond to any that should arrive at, let us say, five o'clock tomorrow afternoon, by, [LAUGHTER] let us say, close of play [] on Wednesday. Sir, that that provides a very very tight timetable, and up up to now, the ordinary timetable has been we had two weeks to respond to objections. Sir, we would Er my suggestion would be that if tomorrow were the cutoff date, that we be given the ordinary two weeks in which to respond.... And what we would do in those circumstances sir is if the late objections er the objections or representations that were to arrive er up to let us say five o'clock tomorrow, we would er deal with and then send on to you with copies to the objector of course.... Th there's there are two other points I I'd like to raise. That's my suggestion i i i i in... that case.... Sir, should... any... additional representations be sent directly to you after the close of the enquiry, I I I for one don't know whether this would happen or not, but what are the administrative arrangements for dealing with that? [John:] Er you mean er from objectors? [speaker006:] From objectors. [John:] Well they they will not. They er they they should not be received by me. Any which are sent to er, which of course would be the only way in which I could be contacted, [speaker006:] Yes. [John:] er would be returned to the appropriate Council. Er. I I would receive nothing. [speaker006:] Then they would be returned to us sir, and then if appropriate they would be dealt with in the context... er of your report and the of the report. [John:] It would be a matter for the Council concerned to decide in er itself what it wanted to do with them. [speaker006:] I'm I'm very grateful for that information sir.... [John:] Thank you. Mr.? [speaker008:] Yes sir. All I can say is this. We would urge you very strongly to er put a deadline... er on receipt of er further objections by tomorrow sir but some of these proofs have been missing all of the discussion and they are literally months past their original fixture date. If any are received... erm by the cutoff date, then it has to be my my submission that we have to have a reasonable time to respond. You don't need reminding sir that er Ryedale Tuesday and Wednesday, and Wednesday is a very very busy last day. My officers just cannot deal with these late proofs in days. Erm sir what I can tell you is this. In relation to every matter in respect of which there is an outstanding written, we have just about now prepared a general proof. It's not a rebuttal, although one tries to anticipate what objectors will say. And you will have all of those documents before you leave on Wednesday. But I cannot, and I don't think you'd be right to expect my officers to prepare detailed rebuttals. Goodness knows what will be in these late proofs, they appear to be taking months to prepare.... Er we have to have a reasonable time to respond. Two weeks would seem reasonable.... [John:] Now... I don't know of course who else... may be er wishing to comment. It may well As far as I know it's it is only Mrs er who has said, I I'm sorry to er to say this Mrs, you are the only person who has said that you wish to produce additional representations. It could be others are keeping quiet about this, I don't know. They may they're likely to miss the date altogether. Er... what is the situation as far as you are concerned? [speaker005:] Yes erm they're not they're not add additional representations, they're not additional to anything that I've said we've heard during the enquiry. Er they are outstanding matters which are to be dealt with. Erm I hear exactly what Mr says,. Erm... in my experience it's quite normal for erm a period after the close of the enquiry to be erm given to erm the planning authority or authorities to on other matters which are outstanding at the close of the enquiry, whether it's two weeks, whether it's whether it's very very common, it's it's reasonable that the authority should have that opportunity to. Erm... for my own part, I don't know. Er I would certainly find it very difficult to get my remaining written submissions to erm by five o'clock tomorrow.... [John:] What you are suggesting then is that the time should be extended from five o'clock Friday to five o'clock Monday, er but that er there should be a period of two weeks after that er to for whichever council or councils are going to respond, for them to make. [speaker005:] I I I mak making a general point. I'm not necessarily in connection with anything I might it's it's very common practice in my experience which seems to me very reasonable. Erm,... again in my experience the a any additional material usually runs from the close of the enquiry, and I'm well aware of of the turning up at the end of the enquiry. [John:] Can I put to you, Mrs, my problems as an inspector on this, and perhaps then you'll understand you know why it is that I am trying to get this er all written material before the end of the enquiry. And that is quite simply that I of course need to read all of these documents. That's is obvious. But having read them, it is first of all possible that I may have some queries on them. It is possible that there may be for instance some appalling typographical gremlin er has crept in to something so that something makes a nonsense. I am not in a position to query that once I adjourn the enquiry. Er something else may be a query because I don't understand the reasoning that is put forward. This can apply either to objectors or to the Council. Er... i it is something which can always happen. The other possibility er is that having read it the site visit that I will have made, in any event, either already or or at some time during the latter part of next week, I may discover there is something which one of the parties points out which I haven't looked at because I didn't realize that it was relevant. And this causes me difficulties in that I have to either imagine what it was or come back again to see whatever the er item in question is. And you'll appreciate in all of these cases, there are administrative er difficulties involved. [speaker005:] Yes I I I do indeed, and this has been a a a long enquiry. But but it it isn't the longest enquiry in this part of the world in in living memory. Erm yes it it's.... [John:] I have myself been involved in a considerably longer local planning enquiry, Mrs, and er I certainly wish to learn from experiences there and elsewhere where problems over late documents have occurred. Er I agree it i it is something that er is hard to avoid. I'm anxious to avoid it if I can. It seems to me perhaps, under the circumstances, the furthe the best that I can do is to set off er up a er cutoff date for objectors of the end of this coming Monday. That at the very least gives me the opportunity er to at very least glance through, I don't know how long they're going to be of course, but at very least glance through them to see what I need to see, to see if there's any which is self-evidently requiring further comment, or further site visit, and er I can then give the Councils a further two weeks in which to respond to that. And er other than those responses, er other than whatever comes in er next Mon by next Monday, I will not consider. I will simply arrange for that to be sent to the Councils for them to take into account alongside, but not part of, my report. W would you be content with that? [speaker005:] Yes, yes, I a I accept that I I fully accept that anything which is received from anybody after the responses after the end of the enquiry.... [John:] Er I... I I have your notice Mr er agreed. It seems to me that nothing really turns on the difference. Er if I'm going to give two weeks after anyway for the Councils, I don't really think it makes a great deal of difference whether it be Friday er afternoon or Monday afternoon. [speaker006:] . [John:] Er are y are you content with that? [speaker006:] Yes sir, I I wouldn't seek to dissuade you from that sir. [John:] Thank you. Mr? Are you also happy with that arrangement? [speaker008:] Happy might be the wrong word but I [John:] Er no. [speaker008:] know when I'm beaten sir. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [John:] I'm grateful. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Well tha that that deals with er that point. Now, this is not the end of the enquiry. I still have at least two days, I hope it will be only two days longer next week, before the enquiry as a whole is closed. It is however the final formal appearance of the team who have been representing North Yorkshire County Council, and I wouldn't want this opportunity to slip without thanking them all, Mr, Mrs, and all of the others... in their team who have spoken on behalf of the Council. You have thank you have helped Mr and myself very considerably er in this enquiry. You have been patient and you have worked hard, and I fear on many occasions late into the night I'm sure, you have proved adaptable and er you have been good-tempered. May I thank you very much for your assistance to us both during the course of this enquiry. I would also like to thank you, Mr, er for your attendance at various times, and Mrs likewise, as neither of you again will be returning. The enquiry [speaker006:] Er sir before you do close the enquiry today sir, while we're in the thanksgiving mode, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Well, I I don't want to go through er er there is no need [speaker006:] No, no, no I I there are two things that I would like to say on behalf of the County Council. Er one is er on behalf of the County Council, I would like to thank the two programme officers, Ian and. They have been extremely efficient and effective in carrying out their onerous tasks, and they've been of enormous assistance in ensuring the smooth running of this enquiry, and indeed it has run smoothly. And sir, both of you, both you sir, Mr and you sir, Mr, er I would like to thank you for the way in the way you have conducted this enquiry. You've extended courtesy, patience, and fair-mindedness to all, so that you've been a tribute to the enquiry process if I may say so. It's enabled us all to work and to conduct our cases in as an amiable atmosphere as the adversarial system allows, and we are grateful for that. We look forward to reading your report in due course. [John:] Thank you Mr. I will be adding my comments as far as the programme officers are concerned at the close of the enquiry. The enquiry itself is now adjourned until Tuesday the twenty seventh of this month, at ten o'clock. Thank you. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] this weekend and the er That's [John:] That's alright good.... So saying today, we'll give the give all the acids alkalis and bases a bit of a rest [Andrew:] yes. [John:] erm look at some of the more general stuff. Now is there anything you want to look at? [Andrew:] Er [John:] Particularly where you've more or less got the idea of it but you think you just want to sort of tidy up a few details an [Andrew:] I don't think Nothing that to hand immediately, no.... [John:] One of the things we were talking about last time was separating mixtures and solvents. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm it's an obvious one but it's easy to miss. How do you separate sand and salt? I mean they won't say sand and salt, they'll say something which is insoluble and give it a horrible chemical name [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And something which is soluble with another horrible and you'll think Er I don't know. But just think just [Andrew:] Mix it in with water and then filter it out. [John:] Yeah, just like sand and salt. They might say How do you make sure it'd pure? Well you you wash then one that's not soluble. Or they might say how would you get a sort of a clean dry version of it? So you know what to do for that. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Wash it and dry it. Erm... I dunno. I mean things like that You're not gonna have any trouble with that, are you? [Andrew:] No. [John:] they represent different atoms. Which ones are mixtures an [Andrew:] Er... That one's... erm n Which one's mixtures, that's a mixture. [John:] That's well They're all the same. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That's the black Filled in version is one type of atom and that's another [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] type of atom, so how many types of atom are there in B? [Andrew:] One. [John:] So what's... is that a mixture of [Andrew:] er no it's a [John:] No okay. [Andrew:] Element. [John:] Right, and this one. So [Andrew:] Is [John:] which ones are mixtures then? [Andrew:] Er... that one. [John:] Okay. Any others? [Andrew:] Just looking er... Can't th No there isn't. [John:] What about this one. [Andrew:] It's a compound isn't it? Cos they've bonded with each other. [John:] Okay... [reading] Which diagram r represents a mixture of atoms? [] Mm. that one, that one So you have to be careful what they mean there. The following list of substances, have a look at that. One point two. [Andrew:] [reading] Which metal is a liquid at room temperature and pressure? [] Mercury. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] [reading] Name the two elements present in common salt. [] Sodium and chlorine. [John:] Great. [Andrew:] [reading] Name a non-metal present in oil. []... Eh? Er Carbon. [John:] that's an awkward one, Yeah good. [Andrew:] [reading] Which element is yellow in colour? [] Sulphur. [reading] Name the element used in street lighting. [] Sodium. Er [reading] Name a compound. [] Er s... compound er... [John:] Well what was [Andrew:] Sodium Chloride [John:] Great yeah. Read this [Andrew:] [reading] Name a mixture. [] Yeah. [John:] the should ask for the two elements present in common salt and they say Name a compound. [Andrew:] [reading] Name a mixture. [] er [whispering] [] [John:] Presumably they mean out of this lot. [Andrew:] Yeah, er... Carbon dioxide. mixture no. Er... water, no that's a compound er [John:] You keep saying the answer actually.... [whispering] Oxygen. [] [Andrew:] Er [John:] What do you keep saying while your thinking [Andrew:] Air. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah okay. And wh what is air a mixture of then? [Andrew:] Er [LAUGHTER] [John:] Some of the things that are in it. [Andrew:] Er Nitrogen, oxygen, Carbon dioxide. [John:] Yeah yeah, yeah. Nitrogen and oxygen are the two big They're the two main ones and then anything else you can put. Carbon dioxide, good and then you get all the funny, little trace... gases. Okay,... What's this then? Erm [Andrew:] Filtration you know. A liquid. [John:] So D [Andrew:] No [John:] Is... [Andrew:] [reading] Five. Complete the following sentence. Something is the process of separating a liquid from sediment by pouring. [] Er [John:] So if you had a beaker full of sand with [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] water on it. You're just pouring the water off [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] carefully so that, you didn't [Andrew:] Oh. [John:] any of the sand. Can [Andrew:] Oh. [John:] you remember what it's called? [Andrew:] No. [John:] It's a funny name. Decanting. Decantation. [Andrew:] Oh yeah. [John:] It's erm You don you don't come across it very [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] much so I wouldn't bother about it too much. [Andrew:] It's used to separate cream from milk.... [John:] Again not too common. But this one, what what's the thing that's left on the [Andrew:] D or E? [John:] C er C. What's the thing that's left on the filter paper? [Andrew:] [reading] A something is the solid left on the filter [] er eh ah. [John:] Which is the one that passes through the filter paper? [Andrew:] Er... Oh what is it I've. The no, yeah? [John:] Mm. Maybe. They start they both start with er think of sort of fil. [Andrew:] I know it. [John:] Fil.. [Andrew:] Filtrates. [John:] It's what happens to half the answers. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Right so, what's left over? [Andrew:] The residue. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] And we're left with this filtrate [John:] The filtrate is what goes through. There's an oil called filtrate, have you seen it? It's [Andrew:] No. [John:] quite an old fashioned erm been going for years. They've been going for years, they've been making motor oils, engine oil, it's called filtrate so that's the liquid. That maybe a way of remembering it. Erm Yeah that's those are the important ones, the residue and the filtrate and erm... problem with that then? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Radioactivity. What you what do you What are the important things about radioactivity? [Andrew:] Erm it can't [John:] What is radioactivity? [Andrew:] Er... erm [John:] Okay, erm Can you give Do you know any anything which is radioactive? [Andrew:] Uranium, plutonium which is made out of uranium. [John:] Okay so they're reactive erm Is this a good thing this radioactivity? [Andrew:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Not if you're standing close to it. [] [Andrew:] Definitely not! [John:] Okay er why not? What's it do to you? [Andrew:] Erm it's carcinogenic. Causes cancer. Erm [John:] Not a good idea. Erm have you heard of half life? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What does that mean? [Andrew:] that, that's how long it takes for half... of the radioactive isotopes to disappear. [John:] Great, yeah, that's a wonderful definition. [Andrew:] Eh. [John:] Okay so if start of with sort of kilogramme, a year later you've got half a kilogramme [Andrew:] Its half life is a year. [John:] then after another year from when you had half a kilogramme, a year later how much would you have? [Andrew:] Er quarter of a kilogramme. [John:] yeah. each each year it sort of goes down to half. Okay. Erm radioactivity is You have to sort of get into what's happening inside the nucleus to understand it. What sort of particles have we got inside the nucleus. [Andrew:] Erm... Inside the nucleus. Neutrons, mm. [John:] Okay neutrons. [Andrew:] Er protons. [John:] And protons. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Neuto neutrons and protons. [Andrew:] And protons. [John:] And... you get I mean it might be an idea if you could sort of handle this formula but it's not important really.... A neutron... it's a... a piece of uranium. It's the... It [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] has to hit the uranium nucleus, and breaks it up into two... other particles and it releases three neutrons. So if you think of the nucleus of uranium, lots of protons and lots of neutrons all bunched up together. Er snooker ball if you like, whacks into them, a neutron hits them [cough] and scatter them, and it forms into two big clumps, the new elements, two new elements and three odd snooker balls come flying out. Okay? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Now why is it important that we get When we sort of fire neutron in we get at least one neutron coming out? [Andrew:] Erm... otherwise it would be a different... element. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] if it ha Say you fired one in and one didn't come out it would have one extra [John:] Well well yeah, it is a different element because I mean the neutrons... don't effect the chemical properties very much. Uranium U two three five U two three eight, the only difference is o ones got a few more neutrons than the other. But what happens here is that the nucleus itself breaks into two big lumps with a different number of protons in now, so you've got two new elements. So they don't use up all the prot all the neutrons that the uranium had. three of them come out, now what happens if there are Right you fire this snooker ball into one uranium nucleus, it splits off and then three snooker balls come flying out and there's more uranium about what's gonna happen? [Andrew:] There's gonna be a [John:] So if they hit if one of those hits another nucleus, [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] that one will break up as well, [Andrew:] Will break up an [John:] and release another three neutrons which can then hit another nucleus. [Andrew:] So on and so on and so on. [John:] And what do you call this? [Andrew:] Er a chain reaction. [John:] Right okay so that's why it's important that we get I mean if we just got one neutron out then theoretically you could sustain a chain reaction, but in practice it would be absorbed, it wouldn't they wouldn't all hit, some of them would miss, but as long as we can get on average about one, of those three, hitting another one, we can keep it going, and we get this chain reaction going and th the heat really builds up then, and that's what they use in a a nuclear reaction reactor. Okay. Do you know about the different types of radiation? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] alpha, beta, gamma radiation? [Andrew:] Er I think so, yeah. Sort of. S er I can't remember which is which. One of them [John:] names, what roughly what do they do? [Andrew:] Er some of them are at different se strength er [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] One can only be blocked by lead. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] Er we haven't really done much on it to [John:] No, [Andrew:] be honest. [John:] okay. I mean some you can stop 'em with a s sheet of thick paper or others will go through very solid objects and as you say you need a good sheet of lead to stop it. Erm... right. Gamma radiation. We've got alpha, beta, gamma and gamma radiation is the stuff that stuff Really takes some stopping. When they when these particles sort of go into your body, what do they do? [Andrew:] Er... oh erm... don't know. [John:] Okay, okay. [252 1] Erm well a lot of them are charged part I mean if you think of let's say the neutron, it smashes into a uranium atom which is a big, really massive nucleus, and splits it up. So if these neutrons come smashing into your body, they could break up any of chemicals that are very important for your life, for your body chemistry. One of the things they do tend to do is upset cells, upset the way cells replicate, which is why they start doing weird things and go off and get cancerous. Erm... very common question is one the the different types of radiation, alpha, beta and gamma. And this this comes up, so often. Explain what is meant by the term Half life. Right, three marks and then they say [reading] The half life of iodine one three one is eight days.If you have a total mass Initial mass of one gramme, how much would you have left after eight days? [] Okay? So you could do that one, no problem. [reading] One naturally occurring radioactive metal which is used in nuclear power stations. [] [Andrew:] erm, I said it before erm er er Uranium. [John:] Right, watch out for that one. That you don't say plutonium because that's not a naturally occurring [Andrew:] Plutonium, yeah. I'm pretty sure about that. [John:] Yeah that one's but I mean th if they say Name one radioactive metal, in nuclear power stations, then okay you can say radium er uranium or plutonium, but if they want a naturally occurring one then you're not gonna get any marks for saying plutonium. And then name one radioactive metal which is made in a power station? Okay. [reading] Most of our electricity is obtained from nuclear power stations or by b or by burning fuels. Two other sources of energy. [] Which can be used to [Andrew:] Water, wind er... [door opening] [speaker001:] You alright? Yeah. It's black with no sugar isn't it? That's lovely. [John:] Thanks very much. Coke. Yeah I mean I think you're pretty good on those, you know about alternative sources of energy and you've got a pretty good idea of nuclear power, what it's about erm you know half life... erm Then this gets onto the technical bit.... [reading] Control rods in a nuclear reactor, often contain boron. Give the electronic structure of a boron atom, one mark. [] Well perhaps you wouldn't bother with that. Erm What do the control rods do? [Andrew:] Er... There's a nuclear reaction which Inside the reactor, and that heats up water and the control rods is nuclear fuel, is it? Uranium, they've just put into the reactor, and it reacts with the other, I don't know what exactly how it works but, er [John:] What do the control rods sound as if they're doing? [Andrew:] They're controlling the reaction. [John:] Right what would happen if you didn't have any control rods, in your nuclear reactor? Someone just pulled the control rods out.... [Andrew:] It wouldn't work. [John:] It would. [LAUGHTER] It would work very well [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Ah. [John:] It would run away, you'd get meltdown. See these these three neurons coming out every time one neutron goes in this chain reaction's getting bigger and bigger. Erm and all the uranium is fissioning, it's all splitting up, it's generating immense quantities of heat [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] and it'll explode, so the control rods are to absorb these extra neutrons. I mean if y if you put the control rods right in, it won't run at all. [Andrew:] No. [John:] Because any If okay the odd couple of neutrons did get through, they'd split up an atom, three more neutrons come out and they're immediately absorbed by the control rods. So when you run to get it started off, you have all your uranium fuel rods in the reactor and you're control rods and it's it's shut down at that stage okay, then you gradually start withdrawing the control rods, and see what's happening. If the temperature starts going put 'em down a little bit more. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And keep it so it's just ticking over, so that on average you're absorbing two of these neutrons, say and just one is going on to st start another one, and you just you know ju It's very fine control on the fuel rods. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] They usually run them at below peak efficiency, they run The Russian reactors they tend to run 'em at maximum efficiency which is you're very very close to the critical level where it could run away with a little mistake and whoops, you got Chernobyl. Okay, so that's what the control rods do, erm they're m also known as moderators, the [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] rods that go in there. Erm another question on there, isotopes, what's an isotope? [Andrew:] Erm... is it, It's not an atom but it's You couldn't break say a piece of uranium or into an atom, but you could break it up into an isotope. An isotope is say several atoms put together [John:] No. [Andrew:] It's like a molecule is it? [John:] like a molecule. Erm Think of two types of uranium, U two three five and U two three eight. They've got a different atomic weight, cos they've got a different number of neutrons, but they got the same number of protons and they've got the same pattern of electrons, and the pattern of those outer electrons is what decides its chemical properties. So if you did a few chemical test on U two three five, U two three eight, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. same thing. And they're called isotopes, of the same element. the only difference in the isotopes is one's got a few extra neutrons. So that's that's basically what an isotope is, it's a an element that has. Or isotopes of an element, they have the same chemical properties, they have the same outer structure and very much the same inner structure apart from one's got a few extra neutrons. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So that's that's an isotope. There are other isotopes, not just uranium. have you heard of erm carbon fourteen, carbon twelve? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Do they use it for dating? [Andrew:] yeah. [John:] Geological finds and things well, erm very often some of You'll find that some of the isotopes are radioactive and they break down into other things. So you need to know what an isotope is. Erm now the periodic table, we've looked at that before and it's the... if you knew the periodic table and where everyone fitted in,every all the elements fitted in or you if you had a copy, you could very intelligent guesses. [Andrew:] yeah. [John:] Erm there's a new element here, you've never heard of it before let's say Carbon fif [Andrew:] Well we do get a copy of the periodic table in the exams. [John:] Yeah so They say what properties do you expect lithium to have, you'll have a look at it and you'll say well it's sort of going to be the same as sodium and potassium, rally. I mean you'll work out whether it's a bit more reactive or a bit less. And this is this is the bonding that we were thinking of as a couple of magnets or thinking of it as electrs electrostatic charge. C can really This one is magnesiums going round with two extra electrons there that it wants to get rid of [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And these two fluorines are both saying Oh I'd really This one's saying I'd love one extra electron to go in there, it just make up my set of eight, same [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] for this one, so they, the three of them get together, the one M G and the two Fs. And then they can all be turn Then they're happy they This is sort of lent if you like, they say donated but think of it as lent, it's lent its electrons to the fluorines cos it wants to get rid of them and the fluorines wanted to take them so, it makes this nice bond.... Right, here's one where they give you a little bit of the table... This this is a That's a fairly complicated sort of thing that they give on the table, erm give you the valencies and the A good guess. Still there's quite a bit. [reading] Oxidation and reduction. [] What's Do you know what that is? Do you know what oxidation is? [Andrew:] Er... [John:] Right, so what what happens when a piece of paper burns, or sugar burns or [Andrew:] It's [John:] coal. [Andrew:] it's reacting and taking up oxygen. [John:] Okay, yeah, great. So that's that's the that's the big sort of main definition of oxidation, taking up oxygen. And the other on the other definition that we chemists use is if you take hydrogen from it. It's also oxidation. And then there's this other one where i where it loses electrons, that's sort of stretching it a bit. I mean it is it is genuinely part of the definition but the definition they had originally has got stretched and stretched so now it it doesn't there's no obvious tie up with oxidation, meaning burning and taking up oxygen, and reduction is the of opposite, so if you get the oxygen out or you put hydrogen in or where it gains electrons. Erm have you done anything on... ionic lattices or giant metal lattices? You seen any erm X-ray crystallography pictures? [Andrew:] No. [John:] No. You can take X-ray pictures of these crystalline atoms, like salt and the all because, they all fit into a nice little pattern, you know when we were sort of playing about with them as though they've go t magnets on? Well they all make a a pattern sort of alternate sodium chlorine sodium chlorine big block.... This is all all chemistry, now can you remember those? [Andrew:] I always And equations [John:] It's not so much the equations [Andrew:] Yeah the models [John:] as the what that was all about. Tell me what you remember that was about? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Not the actual chemicals but just... the sort of question, that you'd get. [Andrew:] Er... what is the molar mass of... say you had s erm... [John:] Oh. [Andrew:] Twenty grammes of a substance. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] er [John:] Oh pick a pick an equation that you know, pretty well. [Andrew:] Mm an equation? [John:] Mm, like how do you make salt? [Andrew:] Er [John:] How do you make common salt? [Andrew:] Sodium and Chlorine. [John:] Mhm. But we don't normally make it like that. [Andrew:] Yeah, I know. Er [John:] I did say we'd keep away from acid plus alkali gives [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Gives what? [Andrew:] Er water and a salt. [John:] Right, so which acid and which alkali would you use to make N A C L? [Andrew:] Er, chlorine yeah? [John:] Yeah so which which acid is that chlorine going to come from? [Andrew:] Er Sodium chloride, no that's salt. Er [John:] that's what we're making, sodium [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] chloride so we're gonna get that chloride from one of the the acids. [Andrew:] Yeah er Oh. [John:] Which acid has got a C L in its formula? Don't worry about it. [Andrew:] N A C L. er nitric acid. No. N A C Oh fucking hell! [John:] It's gotta it's almost got a chlorine sound in its name. [Andrew:] ... I can't think of it. [John:] We'll have we'll we'll have a very short tiny tiny little look at it even though it's almost a holiday, right.... What have we got, we we want to we want to finish up with sodium chloride [Andrew:] N A C L [John:] N A and a C L. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. So we've got to get this [Andrew:] It's hydrogen chloride [John:] Right great okay, right? [Andrew:] Oh I was thinking too hard. [John:] Yeah, okay so there's an H C L and we've got to get the N A from something, that's the acid... and now we need an alkali. An alkali with sodium in it... and the one's we usually use are the hydroxides. [Andrew:] [whispering] Yeah. [] [John:] So what's sodium hydroxide. [Andrew:] Erm N A... er it's got Hydrogen H, N A O H. [John:] That's it, good. N A O H. So there's the N A positive and the O H negative, so that's where we get our sodium chloride from and the H positive and the O H mix... what does the H positive and the O H give us? [Andrew:] Erm, H two O. [John:] Right, water. And we get H two O there. So they'd say erm write down the I mean if you're lucky they'll give perh perhaps on some questions they'll give it to you and on others they'll say write it down. Write down the formula, the equation for making sodium chloride, and then they'd say How many We want to make say two tonnes of sodium chloride, how many tonnes of hydrochloric acid is tat going to use up? Or maybe, the don't often but they can say How many tonnes of hydrochloric acid and how many tonnes of N A O H would we need to make that. And they're not bothered about how much water you make. But that one As you saw from the the past papers that's a usually quite a bit of marks go in for that. And it's a doddle really isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] They give They'll tell you erm they'll give you a list of the weights for C L. N A, H all the rest of them. You just put them into the formula, ad them up and then you do your Well let's say... fifty eight fifty eight tonnes of H C L gives say a hundred and twenty tonnes of N A C L. So how many tonnes would give one? [Andrew:] Er... eight tonne will give one tonne of N A C L. Erm... [John:] Fifty eight tonnes will give us a hundred and twenty tonnes. [Andrew:] Er I'm n How much do we Er how [John:] Let's say let's say we want to make [Andrew:] Can you repeat the question I didn't quite [John:] Okay let's let's say fifty eight tonnes of H C L gives a hundred and twenty tonnes of N A C L. [Andrew:] Alright, how many [John:] And we want to make two hundred tonnes of N A C L. [Andrew:] Right, can I give [John:] So, how much would you need? [Andrew:] To make a hundred and twenty, right [John:] Yep [hand clap]. [Andrew:] You divide that by a hundred and twenty, divide they cancel out so it's so to make one tonne of N A C L you use fifty eight over a hundred and twenty then you just times that by [whispering] [] erm hundred and twenty times by two. [John:] Got it? [Andrew:] And that would be [John:] Brilliant! Yep, yep. and that's it, so that's that's the key to it. Well how much would I need to make one tonne? And then once you've got that it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter if they're asking to make fifty three point five or whatever. Once you've worked out how much you need to make one to Now that, that question is is a gift really isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] There's bound to be something of, alright if I say there's bound to be perhaps this year there won't but [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Going I it's on just about every year, cos it's an important part of the the chemistry. And it's not, you know, it's not really much chemistry in it, especially if they don't ask you f for this er equation but they just give it to you. And they give you all the other information you need. So that's that's one to Every now and again on your own just look through a couple of the papers and have a go at that, so that when it does come up on the exam you're not kicking yourself [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] MM. [John:] and saying [wail]. I knew this, I was doing it I was getting the right answer! [Andrew:] put the light on. [John:] Yeah, put the light on it's getting a bit [Andrew:] Dull [John:] as if it's gonna pour out there isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] it really is. So, on that,wh not if but when that question comes up you should do very well on it I think. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? And that was very quick as well, the way you worked it out, it's not gonna take you long to pile up with quite a few marks on that. And leave more for the others Have you done anything about gas volumes? [Andrew:] No, no. [John:] P one V one T one, doesn't mean anything to you?...... That's an interesting one. Some of these. Erm... five point four, [reading] Which one of these [] just tell me about which one whether you think they're correctly [Andrew:] It's incorrectly [John:] whether they're correctly or incorrectly go through it, each each bit at a time, show me how you're checking it. [Andrew:] it's got two on either side [John:] Yeah so that's good [Andrew:] so that's correctly balanced. [John:] ER what about the C Ls? [Andrew:] Oh yeah, it's got three C L two and that ones got [John:] So how many C Ls all together in three C L two? [Andrew:] Erm there's six. [John:] Yep, okay. [Andrew:] And in that one there's only three. [John:] Ah, are there? [Andrew:] Oh it's two [John:] Right, think of think of it with the brackets on, two times the whole compound, and the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] compound has got two [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] has got three C Ls in, so you've got your two times three again, so that one's okay. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] [reading] Two H two plus O two. [] So there's two, there's four Hs on that side [John:] Right. [Andrew:] plus two Os. On this side, no that's not because it's only Yeah there is two Os [John:] Right, [Andrew:] there. [John:] think of the whole compound as bracketed. Two lots of H two O. you could write it as gives H two O plus H two O. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] been a bit long winded doing that. [Andrew:] Right, there's one Z on Z N on this side there's only one Z N on this side. This C U, there's only one here [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] there's only one here. the S O four, yeah there's only one there and there's only one there so that's balanced. [John:] Okay, so that's okay. [Andrew:] F E two O three [whispering] and an F E two [] Yeah there's two F E [John:] Right F Es are okay, what about the Os? [Andrew:] The Os. [John:] How many Os all together on this side? [Andrew:] There's four Os here [John:] How many? [Andrew:] Four, one two three [John:] there's three from there, and how many from this one? [Andrew:] One, two. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] There's five. [John:] Think think of think of the brackets, right. [Andrew:] There's five, yeah. [John:] So it's sort of two [Andrew:] And there's six here. [John:] Right, so we've got five there, three add two. And on that side we've got six, so that one's not balanced. Erm and what about Is it balanced as far as the Cs go? [Andrew:] Er [John:] we don't really need to go any further because we've found it's not balanced but we just for completeness, how many Cs on this side? [Andrew:] Er there's... two. [John:] Yeah, two Cs from the two C Os, and how many Cs on that side? [Andrew:] Three. [John:] Three from the three, so the Cs aren't balanced either. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] What about this last one? [Andrew:] There's one C U on that side, [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] and on the other side, there's one C U. [John:] Yes so that's okay. [Andrew:] The S O four, there's one S O four on that side, and on the other side there's one S O four. [John:] Right, that's good. [Andrew:] Yeah. There's two N A on this side and there's two N A on [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] that side. There's one two a O H on that side [John:] Good, two O Hs cos it's bracketed around the whole lot. [Andrew:] and then there's two O Hs there. [John:] Right so that's okay, so it was just that one that wasn't. That's that's the sort of erm quick question that they give that if you know what you're doing, again it's easy marks. So it's getting use to the notation, the number that goes in front of the compound applies to everything in the compound. So if we had two N A two S O four, that would be two times N A two you've got four N As and two times the S O four. Okay that was good.... I didn't think I mean there's any Easy one here, plot the graph. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Hate those questions because they take so much time. [speaker001:] Really [Andrew:] I find. I I feel as though I'm not doing anything useful. [John:] You think though, this is a doddle, this is [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Poom! Plot it away and draw the graph, but it's you know [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] W would have we got for this one, say? See [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Quite a few marks. [Andrew:] Oh yeah I'd do it, I'm just saying I'm [John:] So eight marks on it. Erm... again practice would help. Before you draw it, look for what they're going to ask you. Because you might start from nought or something I mean they don't often do this but you might start from nought, and then they ask you What is it at minus ten? And you've started at nought here and you can't work out [speaker001:] Hi. [John:] where your [speaker001:] Hi. Everything okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yes fine thanks. [speaker001:] Do you want to have a drink or have you had one? [John:] I've got one thanks. Been looked after. [speaker001:] Did anybody ring at all Andy? [Andrew:] No. [speaker001:] Okay, well I won't disturb you in the study. [John:] Okay. So, before you decide on your end points on the graph, just check where they're asking read the volume at twenty degrees C, that's okay. So if you do your nought to hundred, and draw your graph and just read off, what it gets on twenty. So again, erm a way of picking up a few marks, quite a few. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Eight marks there, for something that's not really chemistry. Draw a graph. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] If you can draw a graph you can you can get that. And all these are going to sort of pile up so that your The chemistry that you do know is going to you know [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Throw that in as well, and you'll have a pass. Have you done much on electrolysis? [Andrew:] Er... a little bit, yeah. [John:] Mhm. Copper plating things and silver plating them [Andrew:] Er how they make aluminium. [John:] Okay [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] how they make aluminium. Erm where do they make aluminium? [Andrew:] Er [John:] Who makes the kitchen fol, that you've probably got in your kitchen. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Don't know, I've never looked. Made in France [John:] Probably Al Probably Alcan. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Aluminium Canada. Cos they've so much hydroelectric Though they've got the er but they've erm They're used to Lots of hydroelectricity, you need lots and lots of electricity, and it's very expensive, so there they've got big hydroelectric schemes and they make it. [break in recording] And what'll happen when you pass... when you pass a current through hydrochloric acid? Well what's hydrochloric acid? What's the formula for it?... H plus and C L negative, so what gasses would you think would come off when you pass electricity... through it. [Andrew:] Erm Carbon dioxide. Wh wh what was it again? I I heard you wrong, what did you say? [John:] We got we got hydrochloric acid. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right.... [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That's hydrochloric acid. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But you think of it as... if we move away slightly from the magnets [Andrew:] Oh it'll be [John:] in that they're electrically they really are electrical charges, and somebody comes up with a big positive electrical pole of a a battery [Andrew:] You're getting off hydrogen. [John:] Okay, so you get hydrogen [Andrew:] Sorry I don't know what came over me. [John:] Right, you'll get off hydrogen there and [Andrew:] Chlorine. [John:] And chlorine, alright. Erm Yeah they used to have a lot of trouble in submarines and things as they had problems with their batteries flooding and then they start to electrolyzing the sodium chloride, the salt the sea water, and getting chlorine given off. [LAUGHTER] It's not nice thing.... Leave that.... This is a similar sort of thing to passing current through, but this time we're using it as a battery. [Andrew:] Yeah [John:] So the Z N, something that'll conduct, in dilute sulphuric acid, almost any dilute will, pure water won't conduct. Everyone says Well water, you know, really conducts electricity [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] if it's absolutely pure [Andrew:] It won't [John:] It's not a brilliant conductor at all, but l there's always a little bit of impure, a little bit acid, say from [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] carbon dioxide in the air, enough to make it conduct. And it splits up, so your your Z N double positive comes out of the zinc rod. Double positives are taken away making it negative and your H positives go in here, making it positive, so you get a you get a little a little potential difference, a little difference in voltage, which gives a Any any two metals if you put them together and make them a bit damp, or even if you don't make them damp, you usually get a little a tiny voltage. So if we pick metals that have got a big difference in their electrical potentials, we're gonna get a useful battery. The er this is This sort of cell, you can call it a cell rather than a battery, makes electricity. Now a normal car battery called an accumulator, accumulator or battery rather than a cell, doesn't actually make it, it stores it. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Right, so you make it with your dynamo or your alternator [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and you sort of fill up the battery, and then you can draw it off, but the battery itself isn't making electricity it's just storing cells, like the little cells in that, the cells you get in your normal little batteries, and when they've finished making it you chuck 'em away. They get to the stage where they've clogged themselves up with the the by-products, so part of making a battery is trying to design it so it doesn't clog itself up. So you don't finish up with a battery that as soon as you've used it for about a minute, that's it can't get any more [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] voltage out of it. Erm... yeah How how is running water used for making electricity? [Andrew:] Running water? [John:] You said earlier running water might be one of the ways of the alternative methods of making electricity. [Andrew:] Erm you could use tidal or wave power but say it's coming downhill when it rains, the [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] clouds go up a mountain it rains [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] it gets to the top. Rain coming down, usually come down in a stream so you have some kind of erm mill [John:] What an ord [Andrew:] water mill. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] And that turns your dynamo generator whatever you want, [John:] Okay, right, the old water mill used to turn the stones in the wil mill really you could turn a generator. Erm what do they normally have at the big hydroelectric works? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Is it just a little stream running along or what? [Andrew:] No it's usually a water wall. [John:] Yeah, quite a high one so they have a big dam to give a good head water, a good height of water, and that water comes... Drops down through quite a quite a height, and then they have a turbine sort of force it into a turbine with a turbine and it really spins that turbine th that's joined top the alternator and makes the electricity. Okay? What's a catalyst? [Andrew:] Er it speeds up a reaction, it isn't used in the reaction, it just speeds it up. [John:] What do you mean by It isn't used in the reaction? [Andrew:] Erm it doesn't it's not necessarily needed for the reaction, it the reaction will still happen without it. [John:] The reaction could happen slowly without it generally [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] but it's a it makes the reaction a whole lot faster. [Andrew:] It's not used in great quantities in the reaction. [John:] Right it's usually only a small quantity needed, because although it is it's used it's continually sort of restored. So it's [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm I mean some people say, quite wrongly, that it's something that doesn't take any part in the reaction but speeds it up, but how can it do that. It does take a part in the reaction but it keeps getting returned back to its original state. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Can you think of any catalysts? [Andrew:] Er is it potassium permanganate? What [John:] Pla... a duck billed [Andrew:] Pardon? [John:] A duck billed [Andrew:] Platypus. [John:] And it's not platypus it's... sounds like a type of pen. [Andrew:] Platinum. [John:] Right, platinum. Platinum is quite a common one in industrial processors,the other things are used [Andrew:] [tape change] Right, er Right, it's how long it takes for a whole substance to react, so it can't Say you put two... [John:] Put it in your own words. [Andrew:] Say you put two chemicals together. [John:] Right, okay. [Andrew:] It's how long it takes for those to react together until they've stopped reacting. [John:] Right, okay so if we put this one If we put hydrochloric acid and caustic soda together, they'd start reacting and after a while it would all be finished. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. This p this type of reaction goes pretty quickly. Erm what do you think affects the rate at which the reaction goes? [Andrew:] Er... [whispering] What do you think affects the reaction [] Er the amounts of [John:] Okay. It's the concentrations of the reactants. [Andrew:] Heat. [John:] And heat is the big thing. How does heat affect the rate at which the reaction goes? [Andrew:] Usually the hotter it is, the faster the reaction. [John:] Right, [cough] well nothing's happened here, let's just stick a bunsen under it, warm it up a bit, get it moving. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Yeah, so... that's a graph there and this is the sort of graph that you're sometimes ask asked to draw to... get it going, okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] really black isn't it? [Andrew:] Gonna chuck it down any minute [John:] It is, it is. [Andrew:] Well it doesn't go dark till twenty to eight. [John:] I know, it's going to go It's gonna be a good out there. What's a reversible reaction? [Andrew:] Erm it's a reaction, say you put two chemicals together. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] they're not stuck together you can separate them again, it's The reaction can go both ways. [John:] Right the reaction goes both ways. A lot of chemical reactions are actually reversible, but the tend to be mainly going very much in one direction, so we just say we just write it as though it only went in one direction. And what things could affect which direction it goes in? [Andrew:] Er... heat again, [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] er oxygen available to them [John:] Yeah, if it's [Andrew:] Er [John:] one that uses oxygen, that would affect it. [Andrew:] Erm What state [John:] And [Andrew:] they were in to start with. Whether they were together to start with or whether they were separate. [John:] Okay and the other thing that you said for the the first question to what affects what affects he rate of reaction normally in a normal reaction.? [Andrew:] Er [John:] What's the other thing [Andrew:] Quantity. [John:] So the concentrations can affect it. As... Let's say you've got a reaction which is producing erm oxygen. As they oxygen concentration that's being produced, gets very high it slows it down, it slows it and it stops. Now if we can take away tat excess oxygen that's being produced, it'll start going again. If we put more oxygen in, it might start going back the other way. So by controlling the concentration of the reagents that will affect which way it goes and a lot of them are temperature sensitive, we heat it up it goes one way, cool it down it goes the other. So this On on these general points like this you could pick up quite a few marks, but a lot of the questions are not that technical erm and they're stuff that you do know. Erm like the answers you're giving now, these are all [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] good for picking up the marks. Now, I think you know quite about the atmosphere, don't you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... what causes the What's the greenhouse effect and what causes it? [Andrew:] It's the build up of carbon dioxide er in the atmosphere. [John:] Right why is it called a [Andrew:] And [John:] greenhouse effect? [Andrew:] The light comes in from the sun, heat. [John:] Right, yeah. [Andrew:] And it... here's the rain. And it bounces it comes in through the atmosphere, through all the gasses, they can't leave again, as it usually can. Well part of it can leave again, but as it is more is getting trapped inside so it's getting hotter [John:] Good. [Andrew:] and the heat can't leave. [John:] Right so more more heat stays in than escapes back out of it. It's blocking, it's acting like a a bit of a duvet if you like. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Erm in the same way as th the glass in a greenhouse works, that it let's the radiant heat in but then it doesn't let so much out, so the heat builds up. And what's the effect of this? Of the [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Isn't this a good idea because we'll all be nice and warm now? [Andrew:] No because the polar ice caps will melt, sea levels [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] will rise. Erm the hot places already, like deserts and mid Africa, places on the equator will get too hot, things will die. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Etcetera etcetera. [John:] And because the sea levels rise a lot of places could get flooded [Andrew:] Mm. Basically [John:] So [Andrew:] less place to live [John:] Right. [Andrew:] because anywhere that is, it'll be too hot in places so people go to cooler places and cool places will be getting covered in water. [John:] Good, okay, yeah, great. Erm also there could be th will cause other climatic changes so that people who don't normally get rain will get gallons and gallons of it. People who you think It's all melting, there'll be more wet about but there could well be more deserts and So there's quite a lot going on there. What sort of pollutants do cars produce? [Andrew:] [sigh] Lot's er carbon dioxide, er is one. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] There's when the used leaded petrol, lead. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] And so on, er [John:] Yeah. What hap [Andrew:] Carbon monoxide. [John:] Good, carbon monoxide,s when when carbon is burnt from any of the fuels, petrol and sort of the hydrocarbons, burn them very efficiently and very completely you get carbon dioxide which isn't I mean it's not brilliant but it's not toxic. Carbon monoxide is lethal. [Andrew:] I actually, I got a car magazine today er and Saab have actually built a car, and you know they've got catalytic converters now? [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] It drives around and the air that comes out of its exhaust is actually cleaner than when it comes in. [John:] Is [LAUGHTER] Great! [] [Andrew:] It's actually it's brilliant and they [John:] [cough] [Andrew:] put it into production. Because [John:] So, they reckon [Andrew:] if you clean the air as you go [John:] Yeah [Andrew:] I mean it's [John:] They reckon if everyone drove round this it up. So that's what what what else is it doing, this this new car, then, what else is it cleaning up? What [Andrew:] Er [John:] what about these other things that are in the air, does it clean clean them up as well? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] I mean th it's Presumably it must be putting out unburned hydrocarbons. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] When you've got an engine, erm, you Let's say we've got an engine with a fixed amount of petrol going in all the time. Now you've got to balance the air supply [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so that [Andrew:] It burns the maximum [John:] Just as just all that oxygen is used up just to burn it, erm But if you don't give it enough air what will happen? [Andrew:] Erm it'll die. it'll it won't fire properly. [John:] Mm okay so let's say we've got it just running on a very weak mixture, erm [Andrew:] Erm [John:] and there's not much there's not much fuel at all, but there is a lot of air going in, would you expect it all to be burned? Mm, we c could get most of a [Andrew:] No [John:] lean burn we could get close [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] to most of it and we wouldn't be producing too much unburnt fuel coming out of the back, you know [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] when you start a car on choke, pooh you can smell [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the petrol being pumped out of the back, that [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] hasn't been burnt. Okay, and you'd be getting carbon monoxide out cos you're not... erm okay, various things like that. Now [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what's That that's As you say it'll The engine's not gonna have any power [Andrew:] No. [John:] when there's hardly any petrol, and it's very. So if you stick your foot down hard on the accelerator, you squirt [LAUGHTER] a load of petrol in [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and the air can't cope with that, can't burn it all up, so what happens then? When you've [Andrew:] Erm [John:] got a rich mixture.... [Andrew:] It'll The When there's not enough air and there's too much petrol [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Erm only part of it will burn and it'll go out through the exhaust, the [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] rest of the petrol. [John:] So you've got unburnt fuel going out erm [Andrew:] Much more flammable though. [John:] And what what else have we got going out? Cos we hadn't got enough enough air to burn all the carbon in these hydrocarbons. [Andrew:] So there'll be carbon, carbon monoxide. [John:] There'll be carbon monoxide coming out and there might even, as you say, be carbon, with lumps of soot. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm as well as that we get a little bit of sulphur dioxide and we get... oxides of nitrogen, which are pretty nasty, those are the one's they et around Los Angeles, and the big smoggy cities. Erm Nitric and nitrous oxide. Erm and the oxide of nitrogen. You remember when we were talking about making sulphuric acid, remember how we made it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] how do we make it? [Andrew:] Er sulphur, hydrogen, oxygen er [John:] Okay so we burnt the sulphur, made sulphur dioxide [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm burned that again to get sulphur trioxide and then effectively [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] squirted water on it. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] And so sulphur trioxide add water makes sul sulphuric acid. [Andrew:] Sulphuric acid. [John:] Well we've got sulphur dioxide coming out here... and the water will make sulphurous acid, which is again pretty nasty and we've got oxides of nitrogen coming out with the water, they make nitrous and nitric acids, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so you can see why it's pretty nasty [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] er if it's a city with lots of cars running [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, what happens to metals? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Why do why does iron rust, for example? [Andrew:] Er it reacts with water and air. [John:] Okay, good. With water and air, yeah that's the big point. Erm okay? Look at that one. Tin plating, why does that stop iron from rusting? [Andrew:] Erm tin doesn't rust and it protects it from the air and water, you get 'em [John:] Stops the air and water getting to it so it can't rust, and then I mean this is pretty straight forward, if the tin surface is then scratched it will rust, why? [Andrew:] because it can get into contact with the [John:] Right, and why doesn't this happen with zinc plating, galvanizing? [Andrew:] Erm it doesn't come off so easily, [John:] Doesn't come off so easily and it sort goes into it a bit, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] a little bit down into the.... [reading] Suggest alternative materials because iron rust alterial alternative materials for a household bath, [] what could you make it of instead of iron? [Andrew:] Erm, doesn't rust, steel. Possibly. [John:] [yawn] I'm sure that steel rusts. [Andrew:] Yeah, erm... [John:] They do make 'em out of this [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] alternative substance. [Andrew:] Aluminium? No [John:] Be very it would be a very expensive cos it's an expensive [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] thing aluminium. Be a g I mean it would be a nice bath, it would be light and very strong. Erm [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] What about a Coca-Cola can? [Andrew:] That's aluminium. [John:] Right aluminium, yeah. [Andrew:] Yeah,... er [whispering] I'm trying think [] steel or aluminium, plastic. [John:] Yep. Okay [Andrew:] I was thinking [John:] this is the this is it's so easy, you think what's an alternative to steel, oh it must be a metal, how could I make a bath out of copper or what could it be. [Andrew:] Yeah, I was thinking [John:] And it's it's obvious once you've thought about it [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] plastic an you know acrylic baths, things like that. Oh now we get on to the really difficult stuff. [reading] The most abundant gas in the air is? [] [Andrew:] Nitrogen. [John:] Okay. [reading] Liquid air secarate separated into its components by [] [Andrew:] Er [John:] How do they separate it? [Andrew:] Liquid air, freezing it, cooling it [John:] Now, liquid air. [Andrew:] Oh. [John:] If the air is liquid, what temperature is it going to be at? [Andrew:] Er... don't know, erm er [John:] What sort of temperature is liquid nitrogen at? [Andrew:] Low [LAUGHTER] [John:] Low. Liquid oxygen? [Andrew:] Er low. [John:] Low, right. So liquid air [Andrew:] Is separated. [John:] is low [LAUGHTER] low temperature. How do you separate it? How do you separate the oxygen ad the nitrogen out of liquid air? [Andrew:] Er, burn something in it. No [John:] You could do okay you could do that and then you would have used up all the oxygen and you'd just have nitrogen left, but burning something in a liquid in liquid air is gonna be a bit awkward, it couldn't be done. Erm... what will happen if you let the liquid air warm up a little bit? [Andrew:] Er one of them would melt. [John:] Right one of them will... not melt but? [Andrew:] S er evaporate. [John:] Right, boil off I's very low It's boiling but it is at low temperature when it's boiling. You let the temperature come up until it reaches the boiling point [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] of the first one to boil and boil all that off and then you're left with the other one. So it's quite a s a simple process, the idea of it is a simple idea. Erm... [reading] The [] something or other [whispering] is the process by which green plants synthesize carbohydrates from carbon dioxide and water using sunlight as a source of energy and chlorophyll as a catalyst. [] [Andrew:] Something [reading] is the process by which gr [] Oh photosynthesis. [John:] Good, yeah, great. [Andrew:] [reading] A pollutant in the air which leads to the production of acid rain is [] Ooh Carbon dioxide isn't it? NO. [John:] Carbon dioxide does give a very slightly acidic [Andrew:] Er... [John:] rain but it's that's not really [Andrew:] It's sulphur dioxide. [John:] Good Sulphur dioxide, yeah we get sulphurous acids and sulphuric acids. [Andrew:] [reading] Incomplete combustion of diesel fuel produces a poisonous gas called? []... Diesel fuel? [John:] Well that's a tricky one. Erm think of it as petrol. the incomplete combustion of petrol, produces a poisonous gas called? [Andrew:] called carbon monoxide. [John:] Right, and it's the same for diesel. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] It's just that they've probably got so tired of putting petrol in each year [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] we'll fool them we'll put we'll say diesel [Andrew:] Diesel [John:] this year. Yeah, it's a hydrocarbon. It's got lots, it's got hydrogen and it's got lots of carbons in and these carbons when they don't burn completely, when they only sort of partly burn, they form carbon monoxide instead of dioxide. Okay... Ooh. Now you know, you're pretty well up on water supplies, where it comes from, what it does? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... You You know the formula Erm do you know the test for water? [Andrew:] The test? [John:] Mm. No, you may not have come across it. You get white an [Andrew:] Er [John:] white anhydrous copper sulphate. [Andrew:] Oh yeah, it turns blue. I I knew that it turned blue but I didn't know that was the test. [John:] Yeah. It turns blue and that's that's a good test for water. Erm essential for life, we're about two thirds water, it ll depends depending on which book you read how much of us is water, but erm Don't forget that it's an incredible solvent, water. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Lot's and lot's of things will dissolve in water. You tend to think oh so many things don't dissolve in water but think of the other ways round. So many things [Andrew:] Salt all the salts. [John:] Mm. I mean what do washing each day if you want to if you want to clean the walls, want to do [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] bit of cloth in water. [Andrew:] All the soaps in your kitchen all the soaps in your bathroom. They're all stuff which dissolves in water. [John:] Yeah. And if you get It's only when you get oily greasy stains that you think, oh I'd better some ethanol or [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] a bit of petrol or something to try and get this off. So you pretty well up on water. Water as a solvent, you know all about that. Rain coming down, rain down to the sea, evaporating off again. Erm... now okay.... What will happen there, if you've got a shallow pool and a couple of deep pools and the sun is shining on it? [Andrew:] That one will evaporate sooner. [John:] Right. I wonder about the wa What about the water temperature? [Andrew:] Erm, it will be hotter. [John:] Right, so a [Andrew:] Er [John:] little shallow pool down by the seaside will be warmer. [Andrew:] Yeah, it'll be warmer near the top in these as well. [John:] Mm. Erm [Andrew:] [tut] Er [John:] M yeah it will be it will be warmer. [Andrew:] They Those would evaporate at the same rates, although that one would be gone sooner because there's less off it. [John:] Yep. All looks good.... Chlorine is a poisonous gas. So why do they put it in household water? [Andrew:] Er, it kills off It's [John:] Yep [LAUGHTER] cos it's poisonous it kills off [] sort of virtually all life [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and what they hope is that most it has sort of been has disappeared by the time it gets to us [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] so it doesn't kill us off. but you can still Sometimes you can smell it can't you? Taste it in your water. [Andrew:] Oh, yeah it's really bad in our water, [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] it Sometimes it really [John:] especially if [Andrew:] stinks of bleach. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] With the fluoride and the chlorine. [John:] If they've been changing the pipes or digging them up or something they often flush it through with a load of chlorine, [disgusted sound] the water of or b Boil it erm As water get's hotter, and something like sugar, would you get would you find, Let's say you get a cup of cold water and you try and dissolve as much sugar as you can in it, and then you try hot water, try disolv [Andrew:] Dissolve more in the hot water. [John:] Okay. What about gases. Do they, would you get more gas dissolved in hot or in cold water? [Andrew:] More in cold wouldn't you? [John:] Yeah, as you as you heat up the water the gases boil out of it, so if wanted to get rid of the chlorine in your water, boiling it gets rid of quite a lot, it forces the chlorine t to boil out.... Ooh, skip that [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Acids bases and slats. [John:] Erm I know you've probably had more than enough of that, but keep keep having a little look [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] at those, because you've I mean you've done so much work on the, you're doing so well with them it would be a shame to just let it sort of slip out of your mind. [Andrew:] yeah. [John:] Erm you find that more and more constant repetition, each time you go back to it, there's less that you've forgotten, less that seems new and more that seems obvious and you'll be saying to yourself, sort of m You know of course Yeah I don't need to read this, tat's obvious that's obvious. Whereas a few months ago it wasn't tat obvious. Because nothing is obvious until you [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] until you've learnt it. Metals, can you think of any metals? [Andrew:] Erm any metals that what? Erm [John:] Just any metals. [Andrew:] Erm, oh iron, aluminium, brass, copper, steel, erm magnesium, sodium, potassium, calcium [John:] Great [LAUGHTER] Right. [Andrew:] Lithium, er... [John:] One mentioned earlier, as a catalyst. [Andrew:] Er potassium permanganate No [John:] No. [Andrew:] no, platinum, gold, silver, [John:] Right, okay. Lots of them. Erm... some properties of metals that most of the metals, nearly all the metals have? [Andrew:] Conduct electricity. [John:] Right, and if they conduct electricity they also conduct? [Andrew:] ... What else can they [John:] Erm [Andrew:] Heat. [John:] Right [Andrew:] Heat. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] I was thinking of something like electricity, I'm saying have I missed something [John:] Right. Erm they conduct heat and they conduct electricity. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] A one foot copper pipe and a one foot sort of piece of fairly thick wooden dowel, and I'm going to stick a blow torch on the end of each one, which one would you [Andrew:] The dowel please. [John:] Yeah, yeah. So th the copper will conduct very quickly, it'll soon get hot and the wooden one will be a good insulator. Erm metal oxides, metal [yawn] the oxides, differences see, this is the thing they're all sort of quite keen on, so some of the important metals here. iron, very important, you know you can't there's can't be a house in the country that you go into and not find something made of iron. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm cars, okay they're made of steel but the steel is made from the iron. Aluminium, pretty important, also a very good conductor of electricity. Erm which is metal is sort of one of the best conductors of electricity? [Andrew:] Er copper. [John:] Yeah copper's a very good one. Silver and gold are excellent conductors but they're a bit expensive so I [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] you know when [Andrew:] How about platinum? [John:] Yes. [Andrew:] Is that even better? [John:] erm is it better? [Andrew:] Alright. [John:] I don't know actually, I don't know. I'd imagine it is [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you've got me there on that one. [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Erm... Now differences between... metals and non metals.... What would you say the differences [Andrew:] Between metals and non metals. Er non metals don't conduct electricity er [John:] And don't conduct [Andrew:] Heat. [John:] Heat as well [Andrew:] Er [John:] yeah, so you can use them for insulators, electrical insulators or heat insulators, right. [Andrew:] Er metals erm, they're always in solid or liquid form, metals never a gas. [John:] generally, okay apart from mercury they're they're [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] generally [Andrew:] A solid. [John:] a solid, and erm What other things can you do with metals, thinking if their physical properties. [Andrew:] Erm they're strong [John:] Yeah, they're strong erm [Andrew:] Erm they r they react quite often with water and air. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] With water. [John:] Yes and or air, yeah. [Andrew:] Yeah. Erm [John:] What else about Concentrating on their physical properties. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] What could you do with lump of copper. There's a big s slab of copper. [Andrew:] Melt it down. [John:] You good melt it, mould it, make shapes out of it. What else could you do with it? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Think perhaps of a piece of lea, what could you do with that? [Andrew:] It's heavy... it protects against radiation [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] erm [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] There's lots of things you can do with it. [John:] Okay, so erm what would you make wire out of? [Andrew:] Copper [John:] Yeah. How do make wire out of metal? [Andrew:] Er [John:] You get your lump of metal and you stretch it you sort of pull it through a die, through a tiny hole and you just st stretch it. Big big thick rod and you pull a little bit of it through a tiny hole and you stretch it out, and you keep stretching it and you keep stretching it, it doesn't [Andrew:] Aha. [John:] snap. So it's it's ductile. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] erm and it's malleable, you can hammer it, you can hammer it into shapes and panel beat it a car or bits of lead you could dress it, you can tap it with a. Mend your roof, things like that. So metals [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] are usually erm they're pretty workable, they're malleable and ductile and erm... the non metals usually can't do things like that.... Here's your reservoir going down to town, there's a a big drop there they'd normally put it through the turbine and pick up some free electricity [Andrew:] Mm.... [John:] [reading] Select from the list above the metal that reacts violently with cold water. [] [Andrew:] Erm sodium. [John:] Okay. [reading] The metal used to make hot water pipes. [] [Andrew:] Copper. [John:] [reading] The metal that forms a protective oxide coat when exposed to air and is used in the manufacture of window frames. [] [Andrew:] Aluminium. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Er [reading] the metal that forms two different chlorides solution react with sodium hydroxide solution to give precipitates, one coloured reddish brown the other green. [] Erm Iron. [John:] So you can work [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] that one out by what [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what have we got left. Erm [reading] in a limestone are, the reason [] Now, you know about harness of water? [Andrew:] Temporary hardness. [John:] Temporary and permanent hardness. Right... Now your limestone are [Andrew:] Calcium chloride, isn't it? [John:] Well... erm... What does hard water do? [Andrew:] Erm it doesn't so You can't make soap in it. Er [John:] Okay when when you use soap you get a load of scum with precipitates, what happens in your water tanks and water pipes in a hard water area? [Andrew:] Er you get calc erm you get like hard calcium. [John:] Right, you get deposits of calcium something. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] It's Your pipes get clogged up and the bore down the middle gets thinner and thinner so the water sort of hardly trickles through. So this is something which is insoluble. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Something which seems to be soluble at some stage and the water gets hot and it's not soluble, so we're looking for things here that are not... not soluble. It might be worth having a look at that cos there's near There's very often a question on hardness of water. Erm be a good thing for you t Cos you you're really good on all the rest of the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] water and what it does, it might be nice to just look at that to finish it off, so that if [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] get a question on water, which is very common, you get sort of you get the full marks to it. So... hard water doesn't readily form a lather with soap, right? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [whispering] [] this this... twelve point six... [reading] the main reason for temporary hardness is that [] okay. Twelve point just says B, sorry. The calcium hydrogen carbonate or calcium bicarbonate, if you like [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Now, what do you think calcium hydrogen carbonate looks like? [Andrew:] It's got calcium, hydrogen and carbon [John:] So it's got [Andrew:] in it. [John:] calcium, hydrogen and carbonate. C A H C O three, something like that. We're not bothered about the valencies and whether it'll be two C As with one C O three or two C O threes with one C A or how the e But it'll be something like that. It's okay in cold water, but when you heat it up it breaks down into the carbonate, C A C O three. And the bicarbonate is soluble, but the carbonate, calcium carbonate is just chalk. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And it's not soluble, so as soon as the water heats up, it comes out. So you get this in your hot water cylinder, we can get it in boilers, erm you get it in hot water pipes and it happens a lot in in hard water areas,... [reading] Scale will dissolve in the acid in the bubbles of Twelve point seven. Ah here we are. This kettle, is covered with scale, now look, see... Twelve point six is asking you which one of these is causing the problem? Right? Now, [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] twelve point seven, because it's in hard water, it's covered with scale, calcium carbonate. So maybe you could sort of go back and think which one of these would possibly give me calcium carbonate, well that Good chance it might you know have a guess, that this one [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the calcium hydrogen carbonate was the one that. [Andrew:] carbonates in it? [John:] right okay. So often you can get it through some related questions and just go back [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] through it all. Have a have a guess, you know. [reading] What is hard water? [] Okay you've you've answered that one. [reading] Dilute hydrochloric acid is put in your kettle to remove the scale. [] How did it What wou what would happen when you poured it in? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] You've got calcium carbonate and you pour an acid on it. [Andrew:] React with it and it bubble Heat up. [John:] It would heat up, yes and it would bubble up. And see any fizzing, any effervescence? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What gas would be coming off? carbonate. [Andrew:] Hydrogen carbonate. Er what's on the inside of the kettle? [John:] Calcium carbonate, so you've got acid [Andrew:] Chlorine. [John:] Acid plus carbonate. [Andrew:] Yeah. Erm... you'd be getting the chlorine off, getting hydrogen, actually [LAUGHTER] [John:] What what what happens when you put Remember when we we looked at, acid and alkali, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] acid and base, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and we also looked at acid and carbonate. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] And that was the odd one. It gives an extra thing that bubbles off, and what comes out of [Andrew:] Er it's a ga [John:] It's a gas that comes out of a carbonate. [Andrew:] Carbon dioxide. [John:] That's it, okay? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Right? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Okay so we get the carbon dioxide given off and [reading] name two products []. Yet another for that. [reading] Explain why dilute hydrochloric acid not be remove used to remove the scale from aluminium kettles. []... [Andrew:] Erm it will react with the aluminium, eat away at the aluminium. [John:] Right it erm al aluminium is a very reactive element. Although we use it cos it doesn't rust, it does. It rusts so quickly and so sort of firmly it forms a very thin film of aluminium oxide on the surface. [Andrew:] It takes something like ten or five or ten seconds when you made it. [John:] It's bonded on tight to the surface and it stops any more air getting and oxidizing the rest of the aluminium, so we take that off with the acid and let the acid react with the aluminium nice hole in it [Andrew:] When we use it in school, in When you've scrapped some off the layer you can't touch otherwise your fingerprints will be all over it. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Until it's oxidized. [John:] Yeah, yeah. Okay that's good. Erm bit of chrome plating. Ho Any idea how you would chrome plate car bumper? [Andrew:] No. I've always wanted [John:] how would you how would you copper plate things. [Andrew:] Erm electrolysis, [John:] Same thing for chrome. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And when they silver plate things what they tend to do I mean first th the thing When you plate something erm it follows the shape. So if you've got something rough, and you plate it, erm you get a rough finish. If you want a nice shiny smooth finish you polish [Andrew:] Polish. [John:] the thing you're going to plate first. And what they used to do is they say coat it with silver, they might coat it with copper first. So get it smooth, coat it with copper, polish that up a bit so it's really nice and shiny and put a fine coating of silver over it [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and you're saving a bit on the expense. Same with gold plating and stuff like that. [Andrew:] Quite often you use gold leaf though don't they? And [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] gold plating. [John:] Yes. Er don't know which is more expensive, actually. Carbonates. Why why is carbon important? Why why do you think we might be interested in carbon? [Andrew:] Erm... it's around it comes out of a lot of things. erm car exhausts etcetera, when you burn things. [John:] Yeah. What's the difference One good reason why we would be interested in it. What's the difference th One of the big difference between organic and inorganic chemistry? The chemistry of sort of life, organic chemistry how things grow and how we work. [Andrew:] Yeah, er carbon's in both of them. [John:] Mm. A lot of We get the complicated carbon compounds... in erm all the natural processes. So we gonna look at it in simple form first, things like carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide and carbonates and then build up erm I think, no. [sneeze] Pardon me. Erm why is carbon dioxide useful in a fire extinguisher? [Andrew:] Carbon dioxide? [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] Erm it smothers the flames they can't get oxygen if there's carbon dioxide around. [John:] Yep. [Andrew:] Chokes it. [John:] Right, how about some more some more... did wh wh what's graphite? [yawn] And what's diamond? [Andrew:] They're all compounds They're crushed together. [John:] They're forms of carbon. [Andrew:] Oh right, yeah. [John:] [whispering] Okay. [] Allotropes of carbon. Erm a carbonate plus an acid gives? [] [Andrew:] Erm an acid. Carbonate plus an acid? [John:] Right, like we poured stuff [Andrew:] Salt and water. [John:] Gives a salt and a water and [Andrew:] carbon dioxide. [John:] Right, okay, and it gives you sort of three boxes to put things in there, okay? Great. So you get your full marks from that.... Few more things... Mm... Nitrogen okay it's fairly important because of production of ammonia and nitric acid and basis for the chemi chemical industry. Here's the n here's the nitrogen cycle which I thing you're pretty good at, okay on that [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] aren't you? Tell me tell me some of the bits in the nitrogen cycle then, go on. [speaker001:] What bits? [John:] The lot [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Lots of bits. [John:] The lot tell me he lot. [Andrew:] I c I don't I don't think I can tell you the lot it's [John:] Tell me some bits then and work out Could you draw a picture of [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Mm no! [] I don't think I know it that well. [John:] It's go It's a good, you know [Andrew:] Er [John:] it's a fairly common question. [Andrew:] I know erm [John:] The nitrogen cycle. Have a have a have a go at some of them. [Andrew:] I don't know where to start, hang on just need to [John:] Well okay, where where're you going to start. [Andrew:] Can't you just ask me about it? It's [John:] Well it This is more like what an [Andrew:] I don't I don't really know it well enough to tell you what a nitrogen cycle. [John:] Erm where does it come from, where does it go to, who gives it out, who takes it in? Things like that. [Andrew:] Erm Can't even remember what it is now. [John:] Okay have have look at the nitrogen cycle, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] sort of read through a bit about it and then when you've read it, put the book away and leave it for half an hour or an hour or something and then try and draw a rough outline of some of the main points. Some of them some of them give a lot of details, I mean this gives a lot of detail there. You may not need... as much as that, but erm Bacteria, nitrates in the soil and the plants taking up the nitrates some of the plants. Do you know any plants that put nitrogen back into the soil?... [Andrew:] No. [John:] No, erm plants people tend to grow peas and beans and things cos they form little nodules round their roots, and they're putting nitrogen They store nitrogen in that and they sort of When they've finished they put nitrogen back into the soil. Right oxygen and sulphur. Ooh got through got through nearly the whole syllabus there in in one lesson. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] The halogens, do you know what they are? [Andrew:] Er, gases erm [John:] Okay good. Erm [Andrew:] Argons ring a bell No, nitrogen. [John:] Chlorine? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Chlorine, bromine, iodine [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] are the three main ones. That one, that's gonna be [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] or just about it. What's happening in a blast furnace? Erm draw your picture, work out what happens. What you put in what you get out. Why do they need coke? What's what's the pur What does the coke do, to the iron? [Andrew:] Heat. [John:] It's carbon, it's not being used as a fuel it's just being chucked in, to do something with the with the iron ore and why does it put limestone in it? So... something to look at there. test Bar chart. Can you read a bar chart? [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah oh no. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Yes you can. [] Okay read that one then, as you say As you claim you can't read it. [Andrew:] Oh right. That one is seventy [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] million tonnes. that one is seventy two million [John:] Good, [Andrew:] tonnes. [John:] right. [reading] In nineteen eighty three, the yearly consumption was found to be seventy six million tonnes, so where would you mark that? [Andrew:] So that one will be s that'll be seventy four, so in nineteen [John:] nineteen eighty three, mark it on the chart. [Andrew:] seventy [John:] Don't actually mark it on that but [Andrew:] Yeah I won't. [John:] you can Right so. I mean that's [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] It's isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Ooh. [Andrew:] My maths papers are the worst for that. [John:] Yeah.... Alright, well the They give you the answer for those of you who couldn't do it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, organic chemistry. Now we did have a little bit of that, I would say er leave it leave it till you've got the other stuff pretty well sorted out. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm pie chart. Can you read a pie chart? How much how much is used for making and polyethylene and things? I mean so even something's like this on the organic, you might not have a clue what polyethylene is or polypropylene or anything else, but you can read the pie chart and work out what what's going on. So you could still pick up some What's the last hurdle? I'm interested in this, what does it say? Of test questions... Er yeah, these are these are tricky, where they give you something like They give you a melting point and a boiling point whether it conducts electricity and a gas is given off which turns limewater milky. [Andrew:] Carbon dioxide. [John:] Right, so if it gives of If you heat it in er and it gives of carbon dioxide, have a guess at what it is that we're heating? [Andrew:] Erm hydrochloric acid. acid, er no [John:] W w we're not putting an acid with it [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] we're just heating this thing, so [Andrew:] Er [John:] what's it got to contain if it [Andrew:] Carbon and oxygen. So what compounds do you know that have carbon and oxygen in it. Er [John:] The ones that gave of carbon dioxide when we put an acid to them. [Andrew:] Er calcium er erm Oh hydrogen carbonate. [John:] Okay, calcium carbonate, yes. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So the carbonates, any of the carbonates, heat them you get a good chance of getting the... carbon dioxide given off. Okay. So even these more awkward ones you can still you can still have a good guess at them, just from what you know.... Nothing else. What about this one? Erm acid in rain coming in again. [reading] From the chemicals listed below, which one produces acid rain? Carbon, carbon monoxide, chlorine, hydrogen, plus sulphur dioxide. [Andrew:] . [John:] [reading] Iron is obtained using a blast furnace. The raw materials that go in at the top are iron ore, limestone and [] What else goes in there?... [Andrew:] . [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Limestone and coke. [John:] Right, coke. Although it might be a temptation to say hot air, because you do put hot air in, but it says goes in at the top of the furnace. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So, watch out for that one, again people might think lime or something, get it confused with limestone, so it's really a bit tricky that. Coke.... Right, do you happen to know the erm... three main ingredients of gunpowder? [Andrew:] Er sulphur, charcoal and saltpetre which is [John:] Very good. [Andrew:] erm, what is it? They use it in fertilizers as well [John:] Mhm. but can't remember its proper name. Erm, what is it? Can't remember. Tell you what salt peter is. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] Salt peter is sodium nitrite. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And er nitrate, mm, a chile saltpetre. I it's it's very similar in properties to saltpetre, and it comes from Chile. And we used to get it from Chile. And it's potassium instead of sodium. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm, yeah, very good. [reading] Gunpowder is not used in rifles because it produces smoke an leaves a residue in the barrel. [] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So there's the er equation.... What happens when it burns or explodes, so the... okay, the potassium nitrate and the carbon and the sulphur burn and they give quite a bit of er C O two. they also th These other things can all burn as well and you can get erm sulphur dioxide and you can get, as well as nitrogen you can get oxides of nitrogen. And you get a lot you get a lot of gas formed, which is why you get the big explosion. It's formed very quickly.... And there's a slightly more complicated one, what happens when nitroglycerine explodes. [Andrew:] [whistles] [John:] But the big thing is, okay, you get a lot of water lot of water which is going to come out as steam. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] A lot of nitrogen as a gas, I mean ten H two O as a gas. [Andrew:] So you're gonna need air [John:] Bang. N Yeah. [Andrew:] You're gonna air t You need how much? We we don't actually We've got It's got nine oxygen in it already, right so this one doesn't actually need any air. We're not putting any oxygen in the ox It's got nine oxygens tied up with that already to make all these other things from, so we've got a lot of volume of gases there. Mhm. [John:] Six N twos, an O two and ten H two Os. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Bang! Erm this this one [tape change]

[speaker001:] talk started some many years ago. It says legal aspects as you can imagine the chances of dealing with all the possibilities of legal aspects in retirement is is is nonexistent. So in fact I've always concentrated and what people have wanted is some specific direction namely wills dying and what happens if you haven't done something about it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now that was said many years ago Oh well the last thing anyone wants to do when they're going on a retirement course is to talk about dying. But as you may discover at the end of your course you'll have a questionnaire to say how found it, how it's gone on... and of course in the past people have filled in questionnaires saying what they want to know about the legal aspect is all about wills. So wills is what you're going to get mostly. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now we've got a good long a session and hour and a quarter and tea afterwards. So er I don't mind at all being interrupted if anyone has questions as we go along please shout them out it gives me a little breather with me voice and gives a chance to deal with things in the right place if need be. If you can't hear me at the back because my voice drops from time to time then shout away because I'm not always aware of how well it carries. Er and er we'll see how we go. Now you are actually going to be guinea pig for me because I've been doing these for about ten years and I've decided for ten years is getting perhaps a little stale. I've heard myself say it an awful lot of the time, so one of my colleagues who's done one I've I've nicked his er I'm gonna give his lecture or his talk which probably means I shall get my my tongue in a twist an an an and not quite see where I'm going. So if I sort of stumble and start now and again you'll get an idea of what the problem is. So wills. Firstly what's a will, we all think we know what a will is. In practice it's a piece of paper that's been written out by you or at your direction to say what is to happen to all your goods and chattels and property when you die. Of course although we're talking about dying and nobody wants to think about dying let's remind ourselves it's the only certainty in this life. We're all going to go off one day and there's nothing better than planning for it. And making will is planning for your eventual demise. Now the good reasons for making a will. First one is to avoid the intestacy rules. As you can imagine if you don't what's going to happen to what you've got somebody else is going to say for you. In this case the somebody else is the law, the law provides what is to happen. The problem is that the law makes its intelligent decision as to what it thinks should happen which may accord with your wishes. But if you haven't said so we don't know what your wishes are and the law will come along. And the law does things a little bit differently to what some people imagine.... How many of you Can I just ask hands up, think if you die everything you go Everything you have goes to your spouse? Husband or wife. Sorry you're wrong. Erm it's a common mistake and people think Don't need to make a will it'll all go to me wife. It's not true and of course wife might not survive. Who gets what depends on who you leave and how much you leave. And we've got a little chart here... which I shall go through. I know you may not all be able to see it but reasonably clear. First of all who you leave. Whether or not you leave the surviving spouse makes a different. Whether or not you leave children makes a difference. If you've got a spouse and children then the spouse is going to get household goods and personal effects, the ordinary everyday things in the house and the first seventy five thousand pounds. And a life interest in half the residue. The half of the residue is going to go to those issue, children grand children whatever. And when your surviving spouse has finally run his or her course and the life interest comes to an end then the remaining half will go to the children as well. Now as you can imagine it depends what you leave and where you leave it as to how effective that is going to be on how er distressing that's going to be. There's been an article in the paper very recently saying they're going to bring out some proposals to change those intestacy rules shortly after easter they haven't come out yet. As it says in the article You own house and live in Surrey your surviving spouse is not going to get a great deal of the house. If you live in Grimsby then okay cos the house isn't going to be worth seventy five thousand pounds. So that's a critical point. What's the house worth? I'm dealing with two estates where no will has been made and the house was in the name of husband alone who died without a will and the net result is that on on law on intestacy neither of the those surviving widows is of right entitled to the house and in both cases there are children and as you can imagine there is a certain amount of anguish about it.... If you haven't got any issue but parents or fore brother or sister or the issue of that say it's your nephews or nieces and you've still got a spouse of course, she still isn't get She or he is still not going to get the whole lot. She gets a bit more a hundred and twenty five thousand pounds now and an absolute interest in half the residue. And it's only if there is no spouse that matters go rather more as might expect, namely firstly always the children or the issue if they aren't any of those to your parents brothers an sis er issue of parents therefore brothers sisters nephews and nieces. None of those back as far as grandparents and issue of grandparents so uncles and aunts cousins. That's as far as it goes. [cough]. Excuse me. None of those and the chancellor of the exchequer is rubbing his hands and saying Goody goody th there's money for my coffers cos he is the one who is going to step in and take it all, so the people will argue the obvious ones are, firstly somebody you live with but are not married to. Secondly the child of perhaps a second husband or wife so your stepchildren if you have any. You may treat them as your children since they were two years old but if they're not a blood relative of yours they won't be inheriting anything anyway however close they may be. And the third o category that come into mind are your husband or wife's nephews and nieces. The people because you don't have children who are very close to you because they're your spouse's nephew and niece but they're not your nephew and your niece. And I've had some instances where those entirely. There's your intestacy rules that's what the law's going to say about it all and that's what will happen if you don't make a will.... Pause to check notes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Done the intestacy bit. Erm there is to give you a little bit of an idea of hoe those rules would apply and who comes into it A well known family tree for you just to look at. And see how wide it can be and also in some respects how remote it can be. These are the sort of people who come in the Queens family tree. Move that up a bit so... a little better. Those are the people who would have benefited or taken in to account should the Queen have died without a will. And you get quite remote as you can see people you hardly know you know er fairly distant cousins er but you also get fairly close people who don't get consideration at all. Just an indication for you there.... Now we've all seen the intestacy there's another little bit I like to deal with at this point er which is to do with inheritance tax. Or taxes generally. [clears throat]. The reason I throw that in is because it doesn't conveniently come under wills anywhere, but it's relevant to you. You've seen you've seen figures for intestacy. Inheritance tax has different figures.... And exemptions and allowances. And there's a little table telling us about inheritance tax. Now that usually alters every year. The intestacy rules and the figures don't. The last time they were altered was I think about nineteen seventy nine or nineteen eighty one. Tax, [clears throat] exemptions, reductions, everything to your spouse is exempt. Gifts to charity are exempt. Reductions they've actually altered those in the last b budget, er which has benefitted particularly the business property element. But essentially with agriculture woodland works of art and so on you have re reduced values to put in your estate. Once you've taken those into account, there's a nasty figure at the bottom. Forty percent. Which is not as nasty as it was ten or fifteen years ago, but it's still a lot of money if you come into this bracket. Forty percent above a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. [speaker001:] [clears throat] [speaker002:] Now the chancellor's being very nasty this year, he's not increased that limit at all. It was a hundred and fifty thousand pounds last year, a hundred fifty po thousand this year and whether he will put the breaks on it next year cos he needs the money, I don't know. Reaction of most people is to say What a lot of money, we don't get anywhere near that. Why am I bothered about inheritance tax. Answer sit down and work out what you're worth, not alive not what you can spend. Which is what we like to know about, but what you're worth when you're gone. And of course if it's a husband and wife, the two of you together should be thinking of this sort of information because you can do something about it in your will. You got your house it'll be paid for won't it by now? Or hopefully. You've got those insurance policies, they're coming good soon, you're going to spend them on your world cruise I know, but you might not quite make the world cruise. And then there's things that come in like superannuation may be, pension payments if you're in a scheme, lump sum repayments the sort of things that you can't spend but if you're not here they may be going into the pot. So before you decide that you're not worth a hundred and fifty thousand pound do actually sit down and work it out. There are few people I think who've been rather surprised at the amount concerned. Again I'll mention the two cases I'm dealing with where there've been no wills and surviving spouses who are not getting anything. In one of those two cases we've had inheritance tax to pay. So it was over a hundred and fifty thousand pounds in total. And that again was a bit of a shock to the family concerned. They really didn't understand or realize that they were worth so much. So think of your tax because when you make a will you can something about that tax. you can make use of exemptions and just a charity. Husband and wife again particularly to plan a will so that it all ends up with the children if that is eventually what you want with no tax payable or a a a reduced amount of tax. Now this comes into sort of preparing what you ought to have ready when you're about to make your will. Now I hope you're going to see a solicitor to make a will. I shan't force you to but erm it's an important document and the biggest problem about wills is that... when anybody gets to look at it you're not around to say what you meant. And if you haven't made it clear what you meant erm either the court will have to decide or somebody else will decide that it's different to what you intended. So it's a document well worth taking professional advice about. So if you're going to that have a clear picture in your own mind as to what you want. You can tell the solicitor and he will say or she will say to you Good I understand that or Have you thought of this or No you can't do that as the case may be. And you may not have realized this but these many misunderstandings can be sorted out while you're still here to to agree 'em. You need to know what you've got, not precisely the solicitor doesn't want to know that you've a house and three insurances and two bank accounts and a building society. He wants you to know that you've got those and you've got a fair idea of how much you're leaving. And who of course you're leaving it to.... How large is it? Your estate that is of course your estate in this context is everything you own. Your house your land your property your money, everything is going to come in to be dealt with via your will. If you and your wife or husband between you are worth more than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds this is where a bit of estate planning can come into effect in your will. Now you may want to leave everything to your surviving spouse and then on to the children, that's natural. If it's worth more than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds between you at the moment and you leave it all to your surviving spouse then when he or she dies in due course and if those figures haven't altered they'll be inheritance tax to pay. Say it's a hundred and sixty thousand pounds. ten thousand pounds over the limit not on your death but on your spouses death remember. Tax at forty percent, four thousand pounds to the chancellor of the exchequer, he'll be delighted, your kids will be wishing that they didn't have to pay it. they not really paying it themselves but they get four thousand less than they would. Now let's presume that you've got a couple of children and on the death of the first of you, you leave ten thousand pounds between those two children and the rest to your surviving spouse. Now that spouse is only worth a hundred and fifty thousand pounds when he or she dies not a hundred and sixty thousand pounds. Amount of duty, none. Hundred and fifty thousand pounds is the exempt limit so there's no inheritance tax to pay on the death of the survivor. Tax to pay on your death, none because you yourself are worth a h less than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds and your will have ten thousand pounds, free of tax. And it's as simple as that, all you have to concern yourself is does the surviving spouse have enough left to live on? And well most people manage with a hundred and fifty thousand pounds one way another. There's pensions coming in in any event. So that a little bit of simple planning is a way round inheritance for the benefit of the children and it's usually the children that people in the end want to benefit. [speaker001:] May I ask a question? [speaker002:] Of course, please do. [speaker001:] Is there a limit to the amount you can leave to the children at that point? [speaker002:] Erm you're effect erm limited to well no you could leave anything you like. But your own death, if your the death of the first of you and your spouse, have its own exception a er its own limit of a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. So if for instance you're quite well off and you have two hundred thousand pounds in your own estate that you want to leave, if you make it all to the children there would be an exemption of the first hundred and fifty thousand pounds and there would be tax payable on the fifty thousand. If you left hundred and fifty thousand to the children and fifty thousand to your spouse, there would be exemption gifts to spouse no tax on that, exemption first hundred and fifty thousand pounds to the children no tax on that, so on your death no tax. Your spouse would have her own estate plus the fifty thousand pounds that you left her. So if she's still worth under a hundred and fifty thousand pounds there'd still be no tax on her death either. If she made her estate more than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds there'd be some tax payable, so it's a question of how much you've got and both estates have got that exemption of a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. [speaker001:] Would the receipt of that money, as a beneficiary affect my children's tax position? [speaker002:] Erm th in certain ways. If it's inherited from an estate that of itself er attracts no tax, so there tax position would only be the income that they received from it would be subject to income tax and it would be added to their own assets so that when they die in due course then they've inheritance payable there. But there's no other tax er effects, there's no capital gains tax for instance on that... transfer. Were you to transfer it during your life than there are certain possible tax er consequences depending on how long you live, but it's fairly rare for people to transfer substantial amounts during their life. [speaker001:] Isn't it seven years? [speaker002:] Up to seven years in practice. There are reductions up to four years, but again it would depend on how much your size of your estate is at the end of the day, when you do finally go as well. [speaker001:] three years. Am I right in giving three thousand per year? [speaker002:] You can give 'em three thousand a year to... er in total to anybody you've got all the exemptions like two hundred and fifty pound in any one gift erm and you've got things like five thousand pounds on marriage of a child that you can give, and all these add up little cumulative bits here there and everywhere which helps you to dispose of an estate. Also if it's within your own normal income you can give anything, in other words if you don't reduce your capital. And you happen to live frugally but have a good income you can give the spare income away without subject to any tax. So there are plenty of ways of disposing of little amounts Every bit you dispose of from your capital every hundred pounds saves forty pounds in tax, if you're at that sort of level. [speaker001:] Could you tell me, if you and your spouse are both killed at the same time [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] and your estate's worth a hundred and sixty thousand [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] pounds, and you've willed it to go to your children after your spouse, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I presume they would have to pay tax?. [speaker002:] Yes because in practice what the will would say is that the spouse would have to survive for twenty eight days,th the usual phraseology. If not erm then if your spouse died the day after you for instance, you had a road accident or something like that and you've left it all to her, she'll take it all and then it'll add it would be added to her estate it as well and make the inheritance tax bill bigger. But if you've made a twenty eight day clause then yes it'll go to the children a hundred sixty thousand pounds and there'd be tax payable on ten thousand pounds. But that's the same as if you willed spouse had died before you for instance, and you were the second of two to die and she hadn't or she might have everything to the children and you still got a hundred and sixty thousand pounds, you can't avoid the inheritance tax in those circumstances. [speaker001:] at Dunkirk, he was killed in a car crash with his wife both killed instantly. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] any sort of... implications there? [speaker002:] Oh yes, Oh yes. [speaker001:] He had retired he'd retired about ten years. [speaker002:] Depends what and how... this is where we get husband and wife survivorships.... What happens depends on whether or not you made a will to start with. So if you don't know who's died first and there's intestacy, I E no will made, neither survives the other. The husbands property will go to his side of the family, the wife's property will go to her side of the family, which doesn't matter if there are children cos obviously the children are both. It matters much more if you haven't got children you're talking about brothers and sisters and all their children. If you've got a will however, the elder dies first which is why we have these twenty eight day clauses, you know the man is sixty, the wife is fifty five and they're both killed together. There's a will and the man left everything to his wife, she will get it all if if we haven't put in this clause which technically says, Leave it all to my wife if she survives for twenty eight days. It's to cover just these circumstances where there can be something like a a car crash. But does it matter as when you think that she may not have made a will, because then everything will go to her er next of kin as one says, intestacy rules. And if it's for instance a second marriage husband's side of the family could be missing out all together. Even if it's a first marriage the husband's side of the family would miss out altogether. But then you've got that bit at the bottom. Property owned as joint tenants goes to the younger. Now joint tenants is a legal term sensible place to describe it as it's come up... which is what husband and wife often own property as. Buying a house husband and wife will usually [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] As a joint tenancy, it should be explained to you. The alternative way of holding property is as tenants in common. The best of describing it is If you are joint tenants, say it's a house... and there's of you, you both own all the property. One of you dies, the remaining one still owns all the property cos he or she always has done so and therefore it belongs to that person. If you're tenants in common, you will each own half the property or such proportions as been agreed. One of dies, the other one still only owns half the property and therefore the half of the one who's died can be left by will or go under an intestacy. If it's something like a bank account, the indication is Who can draw it out. You have a bank account where either of you can sign, one dies the other can still sign and therefore it belongs entirely to that survivor. If it's a bank account where you've both got to sign before you can draw the money, one dies the other can't draw it out because you can't have two signatures so it's tenants in common and it would be split in accordance with whatever the agreed proportions were. So there's a goodly complication in that. Easier to have wills. [speaker001:] Just going back to the intestacy thing you started with. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] If it's... the joint ownership of the first type you described there [speaker002:] Joint tenants, yes. [speaker001:] Yeah and also joint bank accounts. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Does the seventy five thousand only operate on stuff beyond that? [speaker002:] Yes, if you have Well it's the same whether it's an intestacy or a will. If it's jointly owned property as joint tenants it will pass to the survivor. Therefore y it does not matter whether there is will or not because it passes to the survivor independently of what a will may say. Whether it's a will whether it's an intestacy the survivor takes because the survivor can deal with it, in the way that I've described. And therefore it doesn't matter what the will may have said erm I mean it doesn't matter what the intestacy may be er that survivor takes it and it goes to the survivor outside of the will and you do not deal with it. The er I I shall pull back slightly on that comment in that, if it's jointly owned property it's outside the will you therefore don't have to prove the will to deal with that property, but if it is a large estate and you are dealing with other assets, when you do your inland revenue account you also have to refer to property you may have had the power of dealing... while you were alive and that would include jointly owned property. So if you're doing an inland revenue account for the tax man in other words inheritance tax and you've got the bank account in joint names with thirty thousand in it. He'll want to know about half that bank account, fifteen thousand pounds. But if you don't have to contact the inland revenue, because you don't need to prove the will because the estate is too small then you don't have to tell him about the jointly owned property. It's erm an area where two elements of the law... don't quite meet tidily and For instance if you worth... four hundred thousand pounds big figure, and you had a hundred thousand of it in your own name and three hundred thousand jointly with your wife, wife die er you die, your estate for probate purposes is a hundred thousand pounds. That's what you've got to prove a will for, the three hundred thousand pounds has gone to your surviving spouse as a jointly owned property. Hundred thousand pounds you do not have to submit an inland revenue account, therefore you don't need to tell them about the three hundred thousand pounds and therefore you won't pay inheritance tax. But if your figure was above hundred and twenty five thousand pounds you'd have to fill int an inland revenue account. You'd put your hundred and twenty five thousand pounds down, you'd also put down half of the jointly owned property because you could have dealt with that while you were alive and you'll end up paying large amounts of inheritance tax. And th it's a it's a it's a strange situation but if you've got a smaller estate you'll get away with it, and if you've a larger one you've got to tell them about it. And there's absolutely no provision for erm correcting that. It's just a fact. Right we preparing. [speaker001:] How does the inland revenue police the system whereby if your estate is to [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] small to need to go to them. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Who decides it's too small? [speaker002:] There are specific l l l levels. When you apply for a grant, be it by way of proving a will or of administration which is when there is an intestacy, part of the er documentation is an oath where you swear as to the size of the estate. You have to swear usually that it's under a hundred and twenty five thousand pounds. If that is the case you don't have to complete and inland revenue account. If it's above a hundred and twenty five thousand pounds you do have to complete that account and you won't get the grant from the probate registry until you have done that. On top of that they have a random check system whereby a number of estates are sampled. Essentially they will send a form out saying You've recently got a grant estate, you've said it's worth say twenty five thousand pounds, we're checking up please let us have a list of assets and liabilities. So it's a sort of spot check to see how things go. [speaker001:] Who swears the oath? [speaker002:] The executor or administrator. If it's a will it's the executor or the one executor of the number of them who are proving it. If it's an administration I E there's no will it's the er next of kin which in this context is the person next entitled to the estate so surviving spouse or surviving children if there isn't a spouse. [speaker001:] And if the solicitor got it wrong it's the executor who... takes the blame. [speaker002:] It depends what it is that's wrong. Erm it's the executor's job to... administer the will... but if it's known that there's a mistake of course the executor on behalf of the estate can sue the solicitor. mistake is obvious like... one estate I'm dealing with which is a half home-made will I E it wasn't made by a solicitor, I suspect it was made by a barrister I suspect it was a barrister who was born abroad [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and it left three halves of the residual estate. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Since we can't find out who did actually make it we can't sue anybody for all the costs that that involved in trying put it right. But if a solicitor had made it and put three halves we could... take an action against that solicitor or the executor could to erm for the costs of going to court to find out what on earth the will meant. [speaker001:] [whispering] National Curriculum Key Stage One [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] . Not good ones I hope. And so you've going to see a solicitor, you know what assets you've got, you know who your family and dependents are. In theory you can leave your estate to who ever you like. Cats' home, your mistress round the corner, one of the children and not the others, however you like. In practice if you don't take proper account of who is entitled erm there will be proceedings after you've gone. You've got to have in mind Who are your family and dependents? If you're keeping your spouse because you have the assets and he or she doesn't, there's no good leaving nothing to the spouse, unless that spouse is rich in his or her own right Rich in comparative terms, then there may be good reasons not to live him or her anything because you'd rather leave it to the children. Again we're saving the inheritance tax as I mentioned. That'll be okay.... Children [sigh] it's usually safest to leave it to children but not every family warrants that there are circumstances that mitigate against. The classic one of the unmarried daughter who stays at home to look after parents for instance. That's an unmarried daughter that you should be giving due recognition to for the efforts that she may have put in. You may have a handicapped child who has special needs who er has a requirement for extra resources, you should think of that. Erm you shouldn't forget the children round the corner that your wife doesn't know about or your husband doesn't know about. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They're young and you're still maintaining them when you're alive you can't pretend that they don't exist when the will comes along. Because if they don't know about it the mother or the father of that child will no doubt be coming along screaming I've been getting twenty five pounds a week for the last ten years and I've child on my own now. Er it's surprising how things come out in wills that have been kept quiet [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] during the lifetime of the deceased. These people all need to be given thought. If you've given thought to them and excluded them, that's fine as long as you've made it clear. Husband or wife do get excluded for instance because the marriage has not been a particularly happy one erm and... there would therefore be no particular one why the deceased would leave anything to spouses erm but it's worth saying so if that's the case, to prevent an action coming along and saying Oi why am I not being there, why have I been left out? You also need to have in mind, having decided who's getting everything, who's going to do it all for you. Your will tells y the world what your wishes are, somebody's got to carry your wishes out. That person or persons are your executors. Difference between executors and administrators I've mentioned it briefly before, executors are carrying out the will, administrators are dealing with an estate where there is no will.... You can have anyone you like as your executor. It's not a position where A number of people have the idea that it can't be a beneficiary, it can, it often is a beneficiary for the obvious reason that if the beneficiaries are getting the goodies, why not make them do the work necessary to get hold of them? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] simple as that. but there are often good reasons why the beneficiary and the executors are not the same. First of all of course is your spouse. Why not appoint him or her? that may be sensible, the younger you are, the more sensible it is. When you come to retirement age, whilst not suggesting that you are past it, you are planning ahead for the time where you may not be quite as capable as were. If your not your spouse may not be either. So yes your spouse might be getting all your assets, but if you're going o be seventy five or eighty by the time you've gone and your spouse is seventy four or seventy nine or whatever, he or she may be a little bit past the running around that's necessary the actual practicality of it. If you've got children let them do the work survive the parents, erm as long as they're the sensible sort who can do it and aren't going to fall out with parents and are going to be round. But that's the sort of thing you have in mind, have someone who's a bit younger than yourself. Erm because it is an onerous task, erm onerous in terms of the time that needs spending doing the job even if it's relatively simple in terms of what needs to be done it still takes time and there's still running around to do.... Not everyone unfortunately has children... so you may have to cast around for other members of the family. Brothers sisters, they're the same age as you more or less, not necessarily a good idea. Nephews and nieces might be a better bet erm those are the sort of people have in mind. You might have to go outside the family, it could be next-door neighbours, or friends from work or social club or wherever. When you're getting outside the family you've got to be careful to make sure that they are people that are prepared to do the job, that they understand what's involved because you cannot force anyone to be an executor. Just by naming them doesn't commit them to do anything, they may say Well he never asked me I'm not doing that. And you've got difficulties because there they are appointed executor they're not doing their job, nobody else there to do the job, somebody's got to sort that out. So do... think of that. And then at the end of the day not everybody has even friends or neighbours that they'd want to... impose on? Or be involved in. They don't think that they'd want to know. Or should want to know. You may need to turn to professional advice. Solicitors, accountants... banks perhaps. I'll go through those. If you've got a business you've probably got an accountant. A sensible choice simply because he or she will know a lot about your financial affairs in any event, and therefore is going to know what to look for and how to deal with it. Solicitors well they will know something about your affairs possibly, because of hav to dealing with houses, other difficulties you may have come across form time to time. Banks, yes you deal with banks and er they know a lot about your affairs because you've got your bank account and it goes through their hands and the know all about that. But then banks is expensive Banks is. Steer clear of banks is my advice. I don't how many of you have seen or heard reference to the recent Which report about... estates and managing that. It's typical Which, Problems with Wills I think it was called and then it came in the paper as Where There's a Will there's a Bill. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Nice headline isn't it? It Rings if there wasn't a will there wouldn't be a bill perhaps? Where as in fact if there isn't a will the bill is usually bigger. And in the typical sort of way that lawyers get knocked these days erm we get lumped in with other people and the mud flies. Er reading this article or at least the heading from it and the bit in the paper, you got the impression that solicitors were as bad as banks. Read it in detail and you find that most of the examples given related to banks, and there was one relating to a solicitor. I'm sure that they could have found other examples where solicitors were not doing the job very well and were charging a lot of money because let's be realistic there are good solicitors and there are bad solicitors and I wouldn't pretend otherwise. I meet some of the bad ones er and see the work tat they do and I agree tat things aren't quite as they should be. But I've not yet met a bank who's good at it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Not necessarily in terms of the way the job is done, but in the cost banks really are expensive if you're minded to use a bank they do publish their tariff, they say they give them out to people, I suspect that it gets forgotten sometimes the principle is there the isn't. Study their rates and then decide to throw them into touch and get somebody else to do it. Because I used to say a solicitor would only cost half what a bank would. Looking at what the examples given by Which are concerned the solicitor was only charging about thirty percent of what the bank would. And it may have still seemed a lot of money at I think one thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds, I can't comment or not not having seen the size of the estate, but it compares quite well with the five thousand one hundred and sixty sixty pound Five hu Five thousand seven hundred and sixteen pounds that the Midland bank charge on the particular estate. Looking at this lot Barclays six thousand and seventy two. Lloyds five seven six, Midland four six two nine, Nat West four six four nine seven, solicitor one seven fifty. Well one thousand seven hundred and fifty might seem like a lot of money, but there actually is quite a lot of work in dealing with an estate. And I wouldn't say that that was an unreasonable... charge. Erm it suggests that you should never appoint a solicitor or a bank for the reasons of cost.... There... I can't say that that is right you should never appoint a. Occasionally I even recommend a bank if you should work for a bank you can get the job done for practically nothing I understand and it might be worthwhile. Er and solicitors well they're there the point is about the solicitors among other things they can er mediate when you have the sort of family who are going to fallout and I'm afraid people do have families that are going to fall out. Not everybody does but there are some who do. if you've got an independent person doing the work they can say Well, we don't mind what you're doing falling out among yourselves the will says this and this is what we're going to do. And they can make sure that the wishes are properly carried out. They will of course charge for doing the job, but if you appoint somebody else as an executor and that person goes to see a solicitor the solicitor will also be charging for the job. the mere fact that they are appointed executor does not of itself increase the size of the bill. On the one hand you're giving them extra responsibility so yes the bigger might be bigger for that reason. But on the other hand they're not having to deal so much with another executor there isn't there hasn't got to be so much to and fro correspondence and therefore the workload will be somewhat less and that's likely to balance the extra responsibility element. So that the bill I would es estimate, if you have a solicitor as executor would be the same as if you had a private person as ex as executor who went to see that solicitor. What those costs may be I'm afraid I can't give you a good guide because depend on the amount of work. If you leave a complicated estate with lots of bits here there and everywhere and your affairs in mess and the solicitor's got to sort out he's going to have to do a lot of work for it. Whether you leave a lot of money or not. the size of the estate is a relevant consideration but no the only consideration. A big estate will cost you more than an identical but small estate because there is the responsibility element of it. There's the fact that if he gets it wrong he's lost more money and therefore his, you might say insurable risk is a higher one. I'm not saying that he will get it wrong or that he'll lose you the money, but that's the responsibility of. [speaker001:] Can I ask another question? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] If in the course of erm... a will being proved and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] things coming to fruition, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and to raise money say to pay erm this forty percent tax [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] share holdings have to be sold. If they made a sale at a certain price. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] And just a couple of days later shares are fluctuating [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and they sold at a very low price and [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] a few days later there they were at a very high price. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Is the person doing the selling guilty of any irresponsible acts? [speaker002:] Erm right. [speaker001:] If it's known that they're up and down like [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] this. [speaker002:] First thing is that they wouldn't actually be able to do that for the reasons you've stated. Shares would be in the name of the deceased, therefore can't be dealt with until you've got the grant to prove that you can deal with them. Therefore you can't sell them to raise the money to pay the tax because you've got to pay the tax before you can get the grant. So in that context the argument wouldn't arise, therefore any sale of the shares would take place after you've got hold of the grant and it may be necessary for other reasons like you've got bills to pay or a mortgage to discharge, whatever the reasons. Erm the answer would be no, they've got to be sold at sometime and nobody knows what the market is going to do. In practice if there are beneficiaries who are capable of being consulted, it's likely that one will say to those beneficiaries Right we need to raise some money, there's only the shares to do it with, we're proposing to sell them... do you agree with that or would you prefer to have the shares and gives us some money? And then you've consulted somebody else and if the say no go ahead and sell the shares and if two days later they've gone through the roof it's unfortunate. It's just a fact, nobody could predict it and there for nobody would be liable. [speaker001:] If they didn't consult? [speaker002:] They would leave themselves open to... criticism. Yes [speaker001:] Just in time. [speaker002:] they'd leave themselves open to some criticism... erm because the beneficiaries of whoever otherwise may be entitled to the shares may have said I would like to have those shares. But they do actually have the power, presuming that the will is appropriately worded, to sell for any of the assets. And as long as their not acting in bad faith or er knowledge of a likely increase [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] you're unlikely to be able to do anything about it. Yeah. It happens erm I've handled a case myself where shares were valued at a particular amount on the death and er in due course they needed to be sold as part of the administration unfortunately they'd gone down er a fair amount in the mean time. Erm b but there was no reason why we should sit in wait in case they might go up... because they might have gone down further. Beneficiary didn't want the shares so we sold the shares and there's no good time... you know unfortunately none of us has crystal balls where the market is concerned. [speaker001:] Good point then. You say you've got to pay tax before you get the grant of probate, but you might need the grant of probate before you can pay the tax. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] So what happens then? [speaker002:] You've consulted a solicitor by now I hope. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [whispering] [] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm if you're trying to do it yourself and in theory you can just. Erm it's one of life's conundrums, there are of course answers which solicitors should know about. Number one is that if there are National Savings of any sort, they can be utilized to pay tax. Erm you have to be in touch with the National Savings and they send the money direct so you don't actually get your hands on it. But that's one way round that's possible. Then there are the banks who will always be ready to lend you money to can it up so that it can pay. They may want security, er one case I've been del dealing with they wanted the share certificates depositing by way of some security for instance. But banks unfortunately do charge, negotiating fee and then interest at exciting rates, erm solicitors will do it sometimes, we've done it for clients where we know that it's not too large an amount and we know that there are assets easily obtained because that way the client saves the banks administration fee. We still charge the same interest rate that the bank would do because of course it's costing us that from from the bank on our own funds. But done it up to two or three thousand pounds for an estate, knowing that it [tape change] evaluation. You always need a residuary gift. One rather exciting will home made will I hasten to add I dealt with last year, the lady of some who was not getting on with her husband and I think although I'm not absolutely sure that the handwriting is that of her sister... and we have this form filled in and it mentioned the... bank or special savings account and it mentioned the premium bonds and it mentioned everything in the back bedroom and the linen in the linen and the linen cupboard because she'd brought all this lot... and it failed to appoint an executor and it failed to deal with the residuary estate it meant that technically there was a partial intestacy, as there was a partial intestacy the rules applied to that, first person to inherit? Her surviving spouse, the one she'd obviously done everything to make sure he didn't get a penny. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Second thing was that having covered absolutely everything she wasn't any estate, or at least didn't appear to be any so the surviving spouse wasn't very interested in taking out a grant anyway cos it wasn't going to get him any funds, so we then have the job of doing what's called debarring him and basically he renounced his right to be of the administrator and we then had to go under the rules to find the next person which was one of the specific beneficiaries I E the sons. In fact we turned up some gas shares on the way, but er and a bit of cash, but that wasn't enough to pay the funeral accounts and she made no provision for paying any of the bills so I sold the gas shares towards paying the funeral account and then got shouted at by the er beneficiary children because I hadn't consulted them about selling the gas shares and I said Well, they have to be sold because there's bills to pay and there is no way of dealing with that. In the end part of there specific bequest had to be used to pay the balance of bills but there was a complaint about how long it had taken to sort out, and it taken long to sort out because it was a home made will that didn't make all the right provisions. Er a a and with a family row in in it as well you can imagine the work involved was a bit more than initially might have been expected and I got criticized because the bill was bigger than I had first estimated cos I didn't expect there'd be trouble from the father. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So all that for the sake of paying thirty pounds or thirty five pounds to go and see a solicitor and make a will. [speaker001:] Is it any reason why you shouldn't express it in percentage terms say twenty percent to this, thirty percent to that... ten percent to [speaker002:] In theory there isn't, in practice it depends how you word the rest of it. Er we're talking about residuary estate here and if you've made specific er gifts. Say you are leaving some to a named person, you have left that person, say ten percent. you've got to make provision if that person doesn't survive you... because if the person doesn't survive you, ten percent of your will's not been dealt with. So you would be intestate towards the ten percent. What you actually do is not put it in percentage but in shares. So if you gave that person ten shares, gave ninety shares to somebody else it's a hundred percent in total, but if that person then dies cos you don't want any of his relatives to have it then there's only the ninety shares remaining and ninety shares will be one hundred percent. Because you don't know how big a share is until you know how many people are sharing it. [speaker001:] I see. [speaker002:] So you get away with that way but percentages is a phrase to avoid very in a will shares [speaker001:] I though my granddad's will was that, yeah [speaker002:] percentages you know [speaker001:] exactly that. [speaker002:] percentage of a fixed got there. Shares is a How many people are there dividing, a share is ... big or small depending on whether it's between two people or twenty people. [speaker001:] Thanks. [speaker002:] And that's the way around that little er Again it's something that you'll Doesn't occur to you until it's come upon you, you've dealt with it and you've realized it is a problem. And that's what solicitors should be doing. [speaker001:] Erm. If you have more than one executor, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] can you have an either or? Suppose you had three [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and can you make it so that two out of the three can deal with it. I'm thinking of people someone shall we say er Well I I've got two sons one lives locally and one lives a long way away. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] An [speaker002:] You c You can er you can in fact have up to er you can find in you ex in your will as many people as you like but no more than four executors can prove at any one time. Erm so what I have to is an executor appointed provided he lived in the country for instance because his address was abroad at the time. What you would do in your case with children is probably appoint them all and then they don't all have to prove so they would hopefully discuss this at the time and say Well you know I'm a long way away why don't you two get on with. Or the fall out about it they could still all three prove. So you should make the decision in the first place. If they're abroad I suggest you leave them out, if they're still in the country I suggest you can leave them in. A lot of it's done through the post anyway. [speaker001:] mm. Well I was taking your point about... You know o o wives, about being the same sort of age. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm suppose I parted my wife and two children [speaker002:] Could do. [speaker001:] Erm but any two out of that. [speaker002:] Yes what I It's usual to say is that I I desire or direct that no more than two should prove it. Erm I put that in In practice it's... a bit unnecessary because it is not enforceable.... And even if it were enforceable and there's three how would you decide which two of the three could do the job. The either they're all going to agree and there's no problem anyway, or they're not going to agree in which case you saying they've got to be two rather than three isn't going to help the situation. Er but yes you could put your wife and two children and if your wife is fit to do it she can do it, if she isn't the two children can do it instead... or her and one of the children to help each other out. It's always a good idea ti have more than one executor because you don't know that your executor is going to survive you. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Even if it's one of your children. Children die before parents... unfortunately and have wills I let everything to my mother, Mother I leave everything to my son. Son died first the mother died five weeks later, we had wonderful fun getting that one sorted out. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Just another example of how things can go. One thing you can put in your will as well is your funeral arrangements. Some people are concerned about it and want to put specific details in. Although I do put details of funeral arrangements in will in connection with buried or cremated, in practice it's much better that you tell your intending executors what's intended, because sometimes the will isn't even opened until after the funeral. And if you haven't told people it may get [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] One or two points now about the practicalities of making a will. If you've got some better idea of what's going to go in the wills. Straight forward thing is you need to be of sound mind, that's not difficult. Er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Seriously it's not difficult. You've practically got to be committed under the mental health act... before you're not sound enough to make a will. That or so er suffering form senile dementia or loss your memory, that you can't remember who you ought to have in mind. You can be schizophrenic and still make a will that. All you really have to do is to know what you have in terms of assets, and to know who you ought to have in mind in terms of your nearest and dearest. On my experience dealing with people is however forgetful they get you know nursing homes or residential homes or whatever and they can't really remember from one corresponding conversation to the next they still remember that they've got two children and that they own a bank account. good enough to make a will. The children can't make wills cos in law they're not of sound mind until they're eighteen and adults so any will supposed to be made by somebody aged fifteen which isn't going to be a will. It's in writing because it's... got to be identified by somebody and your not around to say. It's no good telling the children You can have the grandfather clock when I go, it's with the will. And indeed as people get old or ill I find again from personal experience that they tend to give things to several people. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] comes along and come along I was promised this Oh I was promised this as well. Tough it's not in the will and neither of you were getting it. It's no good until it's written down. Written and signed by you and it's witnessed by some independent witnesses. Now these are very important. They must be independent, not mention in the will you can't have a beneficiary who's a witness, you can't have a husband or wife of a beneficiary as a witness either because not I'm told very first clause there aren't, to get a duplicate made bungalow or something like that he might be missing out on the bungalow and the was The course leader at the time told me the story that saw him and he wouldn't tell me who it was I want my ten percent commission. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] put it down to just a useful. Erm so witnesses er can't be beneficiaries and they must be there at the same time. They've got to see you sign the will or at least acknowledge it and in practice see you sign they don't need to know what's in the will they just want to see you sign but they've got to be there it's no good up the road as one witness did for... not for me to her husband who was working in his shop witnessed the signature afterwards. I only found that one out by mistake because there were two dates on the will check it out when it was done. And they just happily told me that Oh I just took it up the road for my husband to witness the signature and that totally invalidated the whole will. will and that didn't please some people I can assure you.... Er wills are revoked. Marriage revokes a will, divorce doesn't revoke a will, but divorce does have consequences. Divorce has unfortunate consequences because of the way they worded the act. the parliamentarians can't get a straight piece of legislation through. It says in the act something like Divorce any gift to a spouse, quote is of no effect, unquote. But there are big problems that arise there because of this practice of having leave it to my spouse if she survives twenty eight days. That's a conditional gift... divorce makes it that that gift is revoked but she may still survive therefore the condition would apply and therefore the subsequent... er provisions that you've made in a will don't apply because they can only apply if the wife survives twenty eight days but that's ignored! And that's that's that's an effect of of statute so if you are getting your divorce, make a new will. It's the easy way round that one. But marriage revokes it entirely and the law is straight forward on that. new marriage, new spouse intestacy rules, spouse is the nearest and gets the first lot so it presumes that having got married you want that spouse to have what you've got. of course it may not be the case cos spouse may be well off, but you need to make a new will. more or less with what's a good will and who you have to have in mind and disposing of the estate and being tax effective so that that. Er if you get it wrong erm there's the inheritance provision for family and dependence act nineteen eighty five, which is the... statutory provision allowing you spouse who left nothing to all those children who left nothing to make applications to the court. They've got six months from the grant to do that.... Executors we've dealt with and expenses, alterations I've just dealt with er Oh if you want to change you mind, and remember a will is only a piece of paper until you die, you can change your mind as often as you like I have made a will in the past Four wills in one year for one of my clients, his right he's perfectly entitled to do that er and it's better that you alter it frequently if your circumstances change than that you don't be aware of how things go in the way that you don't want them do. But what you can't do is cross things out or add things one, they won't be effective. Any alterations to will a will have to be executed in the same way as the will itself. So you've got to witness it sorry you've got to sign it you've got to have your signature witnessed. It's therefore nearly always better to make a new will. If you're crossing somebody out even if you er alter it and initial it, someone will know they've been crossed out. If you make a codicil leaving somebody out, they'll still see the original will somebody will know that you've changed your mind. It's better to make a new will then they don't know what you had in before and nobody's there to argue or question it. If for any reason you need to revoke your will urgently, and there are occasions when it comes about, you need to destroy it. Burn it tear it up... or both. Don't just put a line through it saying revoked, that's not good enough. Er and rush off and make a new will as soon as you can as well as. [speaker001:] What about? [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker001:] What about the? [speaker002:] A copy is not of itself a will and therefore even if the copy is kicking around er that won't effect the matter. The only problem will arise if somebody thinks you've simply lost a will, which does occasionally happen, and then they turn to the copy to try and prove it. So if you've a copy you ought to destroy that, if it's with the solicitor you should notify them. but again if you make a new will you've got new dates on that problem is less likely to come about. Now time is nearly on us but I'm just going to rapidly refer you to procedures on death.... Actually I see another little bit that I haven't covered for us who's going to make a will but I think I've dealt with that. Do see a solicitor, cost is likely to be thirty pounds, upwards. Upwards depends on how complicated you want it to be. Husband and wife together sixty pounds, upwards. Thirty five for an ordinary one you know everything to my spouse or most of it to the spouse with bits to the children er well r we usually run to about thirty five pounds. not a lot of cost, compared to what it will cost if you don't make a will and there are complications or if you make a home-made will and there are complications. Putting it right will cost always a lot more than making your will. Making a will with a solicitor also has the advantage of that you'll have a copy, he's likely to look after it for you if you want him to. Your copy will say where it is, less likely to get lost, people will know because he'll have a copy and can tell your beneficiaries to go an see a solicitor. All that for a very modest price. Erm probates Or rather procedure on death because probate is proving a will, in the Latin if there's no will it's letters of administration which is a similar procedure, except that the will speaks from death and therefore your appointment of the executors is effective from death and therefore your appointment of executors is effective from death, they can do certain things even before they've proven the will Which administrators can't do cos they don't have the power until they've proved that they're the people entitled. Check that the will is valid of course. Find out all the details of the assets. Assets are frozen, you can't get your hands on them on the whole until you've got your grant of probate or you've made declarations if it's a small will. Apply for your grant, I've dealt with that. Inland Revenue accounts. Er swearing the papers basically saying who you are that this is the will er that er the person's died of course er a and that you're the person entitled to be a. Having got that grant it goes round everybody, banks building societies insurance companies and so on, and they'll send declaration forms or withdrawal forms to the assets, the assets and pay the liabilities It's your job to that. It's your job to deal with tax. Inheritance tax, income tax as well is often a return that you needs making. More often than not you get a refund cos of course you have personal allowances for a whole year but you've not er not er lived a whole year as often as not and therefore there usually spaced over the twelve months and you've paid a bit too much tax if you've died in the course of the twelve months. Pay the debts. That's an executor's responsibility. So you need to make sure you know about all the debts which is why if you ever read the papers some Never understand why people read the public notices columns but they are read and you see notice about so and so who's died. That's so that a e anybody who's owed money by that deceased person they can put in a claim. Cos if it's been advertised and they haven't put in a claim the executors are safe to distribute the estate. Legal costs come out of the estate they're not an executor's personal responsibility, but on the other hand an executor is not entitled to charge for the work that he does. Or she. Er reimbursement for expenses so petrol, postages that sort of thing, but the time of running around you can't get back, which is one of the factors that back to the old Which magazine they never deal with this say yes you can deal with it and I read some person that says it only took me forty hours, yes forty hours at legal rates, well that would be a big bill. If a solicitor took as long as forty hours over it. So executors can't get their own er time paid for. And that really I think is about it unless there are Interpretation of As much as I'm going to. Unless there are any other questions that I've not dealt with yet. [speaker001:] Who's liabl Sorry. Who's liable to pay the funeral expenses? [speaker002:] The funeral expenses are [speaker001:] not enough money to [speaker002:] If there's not enough money Social Services. You connect them and they have arrangement with funeral directors to get them on the cheap. Er they're still proper funerals but they basically bulk buying so the cost will be Typically about [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No no I've been on one and they do do it properly. Erm private arrangements [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But it is a first charge on the estate. Er and it's one of the things that people still worry about. [speaker001:] Could I just come in there and I do know an undertaker and this subject did come up in conversation. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And he said Oh he says Never worry about that He said nobody in my. [LAUGHTER] . [speaker002:] of course. Now they they they don't like bodies lying around unattended so the incinerators are always open for that. [speaker001:] Yeah I There's been some correspondence in the financial papers about the family trusts er and particularly with regard to inheritance tax and so. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Are they worth while for relatively small sums you know you talked about ten thousand over the hundred and fifty. [speaker002:] No no. Family trusts are the latest moves by er financial advisors and insurance people to sell you policies. Essentially you pay for f funds into a a trust and create a family trust whereby you or your spouse can be beneficiary and so can children. It's so written so that it's discretionary, it doesn't form part of your estate and therefore it avoids inheritance tax that way. Erm but of course if you die within seven years it could indeed be added back into your estate so I think that they also build a certain amount of life insurance against that and essentially what you do is you you One of the schemes is you pay insurance against the amount of the tax bill seven years. Er if you have a lot of money they can be a good idea er in that it takes capital out of your estate to provide income say children or spouse. But if you haven't got that amount of capital it takes capital out of your hands and you can't spend it in five years time if you need it because you've given it away effectively forever. I mean you can't claw the money the back if you get a bit short in five or ten years time. [speaker001:] I've heard some solicitor say He's a great believer in your looking after yourself the kids will understand. [speaker002:] I put it stronger than that sometimes I say You know why worry about them? Erm you've given them a good start in life, it's your money, enjoy yourselves with it. That's what you worked all your for you've not worked to pass on that amount to your kids. You know if you die and you've from the bank says you'll get buried anyway. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Spend it on yourselves. Your will is only for those which you can't get rid of because you can't get rid of everything. Er but yes people worry about leaving it to their children, don't bother. You know they're either set up now you've given them an education and thrown them on the world squandering it now they'll only squander it when they get their hands on it you might as well squander it on yourselves, let the kids squander it for you.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] If you do have any other questions I'm stopping for a cup of tea so do... please approach me quietly if you need some [speaker001:] on that rather delicate level. [LAUGHTER]. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] at the introduction stage. Anyway can I welcome you on behalf of the Notts County Council to the the Nottinghamshire pre-retirement. You'll see my name's on here Bernard. And there's always the informality about these course, we're all addressed on christian name terms, all speakers prefer it that way and of course we like to address you christian name terms when we know you. And when I saw Bob 's name on there I thought well I know one face at least. almost on the point of saying, Well I there was one friendly face. but that is asking the impression that all the others are unfriendly which isn't. nevertheless it was nice nice to know that there's someone. Er right so as I say it's a lighthearted approach and on christian name terms and with that in mind would you detach one of these and just stick your name on so that at least if you don't know then at some stage during the course you stand a good chance of getting to know each other because again the essence of this course is informality and talking. As you know as as teachers this is the way that information. Right I shan't er be able to remember all your names but er nevertheless if you know each other then er Er you may have wondered what the Nottinghamshire Pre-retirement Council is well we are a charity. Started off giving er sort of talks at er no charge at all to who couldn't afford it and have now expanded into giving talks on a commercial basis to various companies. Er usually spend a lot a lot of time in the north of the county talking to power stations and people like that industrial rather than commercial or educational but er there we are. Er we're financed by grants from various authorities and by payments of course from the bodies who ask us to put on these talks. And er over the years we've built up a reputation I know is is a genuine one say that because I know that you're going to appreciate this course and I use the term very very particularly you will enjoy it. Again one of the essential elements picking up information is that if you enjoy you will then learn more. I find it so. Right some of our speakers are retires I I've been retired quite a number of years, as you'll have noticed I give the talk on income tax and I'm a retired tax inspector. And so we bring er a special sort of er expertise I suppose to the talks but also the experience of retirement which we think is is really good by someone who has already retired enjoying retirement to be able come to talk to people. We often meet people who are in in their forties and fifties on er early retirement and little bit difficult to get over the message they don't they don't see it as retirement and yet surprisingly very few of the people who got redundancy at forty and forty five and fifty seem to be bothered about taking up other work at all that. obviously you'll say the size of their pensions and lump sums. That doesn't seem to be so at some stages it is a little difficult getting it over as a as a a retired person talking to someone who is facing redundancy about retirement. Particularly when some of our speakers talk about er getting the state retirement pension at sixty five talking to I'm only forty five. so there is this mixture of er of the older element and the younger element which we've got to sort of marry during this course. So if you feel at some stage that er this isn't for me then one of the things that we regularly hear is I wish I'd done this course ten years ago. So in see things that you can do in future let me know. Particularly with the with the finance er s speaker. Right where are we up to? But all our speakers are chosen by the Pre-retirement Council and by your employers by the way who over a period of time have selected the Oh well we don't want him again or that firm again. so they've all we've all been vetted over over a number of years. So we've all speakers chosen for their integrity and confidence. The aim of the course is to provide advice and information but as I said at the beginning to get you talking about it. Because only then can you learn things. I often say jokingly that you make a comment to somebody and you find you're talking to the world export on expert on whatever it is. It is surprising how often your questions are answered by a casual comment from somebody. You've been bothered by something for ages and just happen to mention it somebody as you're walking by, Oh yes. And this I I find is one of the helpful things and when you get together not during the actual talking the actual session but er.... I mentioned the age related thing about the difficulty of talking about. Excuse me could you speak up just a little bit? [speaker002:] Yes yes er [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Any problems like that don't hesitate just join in and jumping ahead on the question of questions all our speakers like you to ask them as they occur to you. So don't feel that that you should wait until the end although we do leave a a little bit at the end just for questions and you may have noticed that there's either a tea break or a meal break after each talk. Which if you've got anything personal particularly on income tax for example the you buttonhole the speaker during the tea or coffee break. And they don't mind at all. So don't hesitate. Right... One of the things that er we try to pass on is that you'll pick up a lot of information which may not be relevant to you but may be relevant to members of your family or friends. But pass it on. Now I I mentioned some of the things on income tax where i know it doesn't er apply to the people in the group but may well do to relatives of them. But don't hesitate tell people about it. Pass on your information. Well the as you'll have noticed the course is designed around a series of talks but they are by no means lectures. There is very much a joining in element participation is welcome by all the speakers. feel free to question intelligent participation that er brings out as you well know the best in in all. And we try to show that retirement can be a rewarding and fulfilling I find it so anyway so I can sell things in that er sense having an experience rather a young person talking to older people how er fulfilling it wis is in retirement. Well I know it is and er I hope it comes over in a genuine way. But er in effect we're trying to show you how fulfilling and rewarding er you can make retirement. Rewarding in a financial sense I think you'll find once you've heard. Some of the subjects are a bit heavier than others. This is the fault of of er behind the fact er we have to ask speakers when they can come to give their talk. And they have to fit it into their diary. Sometimes we get a particularly heavy day though er I apologize for that that in advance but er don't lose your concentration you'll certainly miss something.... We've got a folder for each of you. Please help yourself it contains quite a lot of er information leaflets and whatnot. And some of our speakers will bring their own leaflets er make noes by all means but you may find that er you'll get er good handouts from some of the speakers not every not all of them. I don't know whether the er our er legal speaker will will will bring any er information but er... this is the sort of thing that some of the er solicitors bring retir Pre-retirement Course Legal Aspects of Retirement and if er if we you don't get a handout like this from er mister I've not met met mister before. This is available if anyone wants to look at it during the course. I'll keep it out of his way whilst he's talking or he'll think, Hello there's a competitor in the wings. I think you've got a green folder with a questionnaire in it haven't you? If you'll complete that during the course, towards the ends of the course when you've Ah well I've got a little note that questionnaires should be in green folder. Well I've got a supply of of questionnaires so er I'm sorry if you so I'll Come in. [speaker001:] This is the pre-retirement course? [speaker002:] Pre-retirement yes [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker002:] yes. Hello...... Are you the gentleman with car trouble? [speaker001:] I am thank you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No longer I hope. [speaker002:] Anyway welcome. I was just saying that during the course of today I hope you'll complete a questionnaire. Feel free to be er complementary or critical as you wish. Bear in mind of course that er most of speakers are volunteers so. [speaker001:] You mean you want us to be kind to them. [speaker002:] Not really I just say that because one er person who completed a questionnaire was quite er was quite nasty in their comments and er it isn't really appropriate when people are volunteers. It's different if you're paid to come here to give a talk and you put up a poor show but if you've volunteered then er I think er you know you you really ought to have a different approach to. But criticize by all means. I thought I ought to tell you that. Right and also comments and suggestions although we've been in the business for a number of years, er comments and suggestions are always er welcomed and and and considered very carefully. Right I've mentioned questions... you'll notice that we've got money and retirement mister John from now most of you may have seen the name in various erm very good speaker John you'll a you'll appreciate can't really say enjoy his talk because he really goes on and gives you a lot of information you'll appreciate it rather than enjoy it. But I need to say something about the investment advisors because they're in a slightly different er they come here in a slightly different capacity to other speakers. And the spea all these firms' speakers will be talking in a very way about finance. They're not giving the talk aimed at telling you how best to invest your money. It's merely the the perils and pitfalls of investment. How best to but during that talk and this is where we need to concentrate he'll be dropping snippets of information. And why I mention that is that the purpose of these people coming they are commercial they are coming here on a commercial basis. Er there won't be any hard sell quite quite clear about this. You will not know that he is really er here in a commercial way. This is deliberate because he's come here on that basis. He will talk to you generally about investment advice and during the break you'll be able to talk to him you'll be able to ask questions. him out by all means on any investment but this is the difference at the end of his talk he will be hoping that you will complete an application form for them to advise you individually. Which will be a form of contract between you and them. You don't have to do. But I would advise you to do so. Because at one of our talks er before the financial advisor spoken to a chap that happened to be sitting near him when I moved out of this desk and he got rather a ler lu large investment and yet m and and he was quite happy with his investment yet much to my astonishment he completed this application form for the investment advisor to advise him on his investment. I said, I wouldn't have you would have bothered. well he says he'll tell me what he suggests and if it agrees with what I've got I'm a happy man aren't I. If it doesn't I can consider changing. But he said I probably won't taking any notice of it at all. So there are two things er you will John will hope you will a apply to the the his firm to advise you individually. You needn't do so you needn't complete it at all there's no hard sell. You can then complete it and then he will make an appointment with you to come to your house and he'll spend quite a lot of time they really do ascertaining your personal circumstances. Any dependants, what your investment policies are, what your need for money will be over the short term and the long term. Because they are required by law to give you the best investment advice, and unless they find out your personal details they can't do that. And if they fail to find all your information and recommend something and then you say, Well er invalid son or parents and I need that money then he's at fault and you can then er take them to court for failing to give you best advice. So they really do go to town in finding out your personal existing investments. And then they will he will send you a written report on how best you should invest your money. Lump sums or existing investments. And at that stage you can say no thank you and our advice is take the report and then go to another investment advisor and they will do precisely the same. And you can compare the two and still say no thank you. And at that point it is absolutely free the service is completely Hello. Come in. [speaker001:] retirement course? [speaker002:] Pre-retirement yes. [speaker001:] We've been in the building for hours actually. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We're talking about the financial speaker and the way they and I I'm afraid I sh we shan't have time to go back and er tell you what I'm saying but er I hope you can pick it up. So you've got the you've got the three things the the the financial speaker is really coming here in a commercial way but with no hard sell in the hope that you will become er one of their clients for individual investment advice but you needn't do so. If you do and they complete a report and give you their best advice you can still say no thank you I'm going to put it in the building society. If you then say, yes I think that's very good I'll do as you say you do not repeat no give them your money, or let them handle your money. They will say invest in whatever it is say Global Investment no it won't be because that's tied to the Halifax Building Society but just say Global Investments as a name. If they say er, We think you should put all your money into Global Investments then you send your cheque to Global Investments. You never send your money through any of these investment advisors. If you do go to a second investment advisor and John may well advise to do so. They sometimes do say, Go somewhere else before you take our advice. Erm and they say, Will you please let me have your cheque for investment. walk out. Because you should never deal with these people in a cash basis. It's only an advisory basis. And John will make this crystal clear. So really you're you can't lose they come they give you the best advice, they give it in a written form. Hello. [speaker001:] Hello I'm sorry I'm late. [speaker002:] That's alright. And then if it's up to you to to take it or leave it. And you'll say well there must be a catch in it somewhere they obviously aren't doing it for free. And they're not of course because what happens is if you follow their advice and put ten pounds into Global Investment for example then Global Investments will at that stage will pay them. If if you don't they won't have any commission at all. So up to that point and if if none of you take advantage of their offer then they won't be paid at all. And you might say well I'll not take their advice I'll invest it directly with Global and you'll find that cos Global'll keep it for themselves. So if you it's a no no win situation in that sense. but the point I'm making is that up to the end of giving you advice it is perfectly free there is no charge on you whatsoever. So I hope I've not complicated that I I always find it's helpful to say this about this speaker this because no other speaker no speaker is here with a. Any questions on the. I certainly advise you to keep asking questions throughout because as I say although they're speaking in a very very general way the often slip up and give you a particular that you can take advantage and if you lead them on then the more information is available to you. Do are you aware of the difference between erm an advisor who is tied and one who is perfectly free. You do find advisors are tied I mentioned Global Investments they're tied to the Halifax Building Society. So that if our speaker for example had been John from the Halifax Building Society he would only be talking about Global Investments. And I've no criticism of Global investments they may well be the best for you. But it's such a limited range whereas the the and other bodies that come on these courses have got the whole the whole investment field so er you do get the the advantages there. And all those er independent advisors are members of FIMBRA I'm sure John will mention it. Financial investment managers etcetera etcetera. [speaker001:] Is it also true to say that their guess is often no better than your own? [speaker002:] I I wouldn't dispute that at all they they are really guessing except that er they are more likely to be right. [speaker001:] So often in the financial press you see shares [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and the various advisors are saying Buy Buy Buy. If one of them is saying Mm sell that one. You think well [speaker002:] Who is right? [speaker001:] who is Right? [speaker002:] I think they're probably making educated guesses aren't they whereas we're making stabs in the dark. FIMBRA anyway is the independent advisor and the other one's are members of LAUTRO. But I'm sure John will go into a lot of detail I only needed to mention. Now onto the solicitor one er although he is er... he is in the commercial world he's he's not here under in the same way as John from. And legal speaker tends to talk only about wills making wills. Er I don't know how many of you made wills but er draw him out on other things if you've got any problems I mean we we had quite an interesting session at one of the power station talks on a er tenant er tenancy agreement that a chap had been bothered about for some years. A member of the group had been bothered hadn't been given the right advice for some years. So er it does tend to be as I say solely about wills well draw it out if you've got anything else you may not have. legal er situation at all then you know just ask questions here you get free legal advice which can't be bad. You've got an hour's free legal advice. Okay.... I think that's all I need say by this time the next our next speaker is usually arriving so to sort of develop and not that there's a real need for it nor am I capable of doing so. But what we do find helpful at this stage is to consider the pluses and minuses getting you to contribute what you think are the pluses and minuses or retirement and then during the conclusion stage we sort of look at these again and wonder whether we've changed our view We hop you will because obviously this is the purpose of the of these talks. So I wonder if er I'll make a note of them I wonder if someone will start me off on on a list of what you think are the pluses and minuses of retirement. then as I say we'll discuss it towards the end. If we get the time. anybody like to start what what are the minuses of retirement, or a minus of retirement as you would see it? [speaker001:] Be poorer we'll be poorer. [speaker002:] Poorer. Not necessarily so but er generally poorer. I er I nearly fell through the floor a little while ago I was British Gas people and one of them living with this lady and I want to give her half of my lump sum, how can I do to avoid er to effect her income tax or inheritance tax thinking in terms of the inheritance tax limit of a hundred and fifty thousand I said, Well would you mind telling me about how much it will be? Oh yes he says a hundred and eighty thousand. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and that was a half of his lump sum. So it really is astonishing The way some some people are top brass of British Gas but er it really is astonishing so when you say that we shall all we shall poorer generally so and yet er. That's very much a by the way just to make you feel a little bit Okay poorer, but we hope that er after the er 's talk that er that there's a real hope. Anything else. [speaker001:] Stepping out of the system. [speaker002:] Yes yes.... Which has a sort of I'll compare it them with er some of the things that have been [speaker001:] Lea leading on from that, the day by day constant contact with a lot of people. [speaker002:] This is one that always comes up lot's of of working relations I just noticed I was reading one of these er incidentally I mentioned about British Gas er this is the one that they give all their. You know they do But anyway the point I was making was that they call it distant intimacy. [speaker001:] Yeah right. [speaker002:] Distant intimacy a novel way of putting it but er there we are. that feeling of of average. [speaker001:] I don't know whether that's supposed to be a plus or a minus. [LAUGHTER] Well said that man. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay now anything on the minuses apart from this suggestion that that could be both. What about any pluses. I agree with you but erm but it can be tiresome can't if you if you're working with people who are a little bit er over the top or pushy people [speaker001:] Well one of the obvious pluses is that I'll have a chance to do what I want to do when I want to do it. for the first time five years of ed Yeah yeah true. Whether it's a plus or a minus it could be a loss of responsibility. Although I enjoy responsibility. Yeah. That that could be a minus depending Minus. [speaker002:] Could be a plus but it could be If you're the person who can ride with responsibility it it is a loss. But if you're the one who's struggling [speaker001:] Making decisions and that sort of thing miss. [speaker002:] You would miss yeah. So one of the one of the suggestions would be then that er you should try to get a similar sort of relationship in retirement. In a voluntary way a voluntary capacity working I mean in in this sense in my there is a sense of responsibility and I find that good and challenging which is perhaps one of the reasons why I like doing these courses because you you er a certain amount of stress and responsibility is is. It's when it goes beyond the point of. But yes I think that would be plus or a minus depending on your on your point of view.... Right any more? I will yeah. I hadn't but yes thank you. Any really positive ones. Well we've had one do what I like is [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] a real positive one. [speaker001:] You can do your hobbies better. [speaker002:] Yeah more time for hobbies. [speaker001:] A better quality of hobby. Instead of doing loads of things [speaker002:] Yeah. Better yeah. Quality.... Right. [speaker001:] Cheaper holidays. totally absolutely completely ready you guilty. And not feel guilty. Exactly. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Not met that before [LAUGHTER] yeah good one. [speaker001:] Cheaper holidays. [speaker002:] Yes very good very good yeah. [speaker001:] More importantly off season holidays when there are no children around. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] We've got a got a minute or two some some friends of ours were saying the other day they've booked a holiday at er very near the Por Portagil Portuguese Spanish border on the South Do you know it? [speaker001:] It's rough. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now this is what I was saying about tal sitting next to the world expert in. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Because these friends [speaker001:] It's the wrong end of the Algarve [speaker002:] they booked a six week holiday coming back on the first week on boxing day they've got free car hire for the whole six weeks, not the insurance. They're getting transport free from Man from home at erm to Manchester Airport. For four hundred and ninety five pounds and we said straight away well what's the catch? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well except if people are interested yes you know like [speaker001:] by the sea packs of mangy dogs drifting up and down. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] Oh. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So really they the benefit of this to those of you is that that this end of Portugal is like that is it. It's the eastern end of Portugal like that [speaker001:] That bit. You said [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that's what I'm talking about. [speaker002:] It's just where you go up into Spain [speaker001:] Erm River. [speaker002:] And you go from Portugal up the river and into Spain don't you. Know we got lost with the time zone there because Portugal is an hour [speaker001:] I mean charming people, lovely food [speaker002:] So we've learnt something already [LAUGHTER] Well I better not tell them because it will completely spoil their holiday but erm it's h it's interesting because we've been mentioning it to other people I'm sure they've never. Anyway cheaper holidays yes but er not at [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] they will need teachers' and if you can bear that one in mind. Erm... I've got an information pack here which I'll hand out at the end of the session and it's got sort of four fairly erm useful leaflets in it. One's a general superannuation. Er there's one that talks about about age inherited benefits. And one that talks about pensions and other dependants and then there's a leaflet erm which gives you certain facts about re-employment after retirement. If you'd like to take those away with you will actually erm reinforce some of the things that I'm going to say during the next hour. So as far as the actual topics I'm going to cover are concerned, erm... can everybody see. Turn the lights off shall we? Erm talking about the various types of pension that are available under the teachers' scheme. Erm a little bit about contributions and additional contributions and the actual benefits that are available and. Could I ask that we take any questions at the end of session.... So the actual types of pension and the applications of them. Er there's normal age retirement, premature retirement, and and premature retirement with redundancy two or three really you know can go together. And then there is the infirmity pension. As far as the normal age retirement goes. Erm this is available to teachers and lecturers erm at the age of sixty. Because you can remain in service until the age of sixty five, if you so choose erm and draw your pension, you do actually have to apply for normal age retirement. Er because if you don't actually make out formal applications, you know come your retirement nothing will happen. It's not actually automatic because you can stay in for those extra... up up to five years if you so choose. Erm the actual there's a pension and a lump sum payable and this is based on your total amount of pensionable service. That's really service on which teaching service on which you have paid contributions. It also includes erm reckonable service which is is service other than teaching that you may have transferred into the scheme. So things like erm service from another superannuation scheme or if somebody's been paying you know extra contributions to actually boost your pension lump sum, that is actually reckonable service. But it all counts at the end of the day in in calculating your pension and lump sum. Erm so to actually make application for the pension you need to apply to the education personnel group erm and you'll need a an application form fourteen A pen.... Once you actually receive a copy of this it's in two parts. The first part you need to complete, part A and this has got your personal details bank details it asks about your family details for family benefits and it asks if you are in receipt of any other oth other pensions. Erm asks for an indication of whether you are likely to be taking up teaching service after retirement. And and having completed that, you send it back to the personnel group at county hall. We will then complete part B which gives the Teachers Pensions Agency details of your actual service and salary since the last annual return. That's an exercise that we complete each year actually updating the Teachers Pensions Agency of your particular service details. So we complete that information, er tell them when you are actually finishing teaching er I E the last day you'll actually be, your last day of actual teaching and the last day to which salary will be paid. And we then return that to the Teachers Pensions Agency in Darlington.... As far as these forms are concerned erm it it's best to complete them about four months before your actual retirement date. Er in the summer term particularly, at the end of the summer term those retirements thirty first of August because as you can appreciate they are sort of inundated applications at the end of the academic year. So you know the sooner it can be sort of processed, the sooner they can actually get working on it.... The D E S actually calculate your pension, they authorize payments by the Paymaster General's Office and er notify notify you of your actual benefits that are due. Usually about two to three weeks before the actual time and date.... That's normal age retirement. Er premature retirement.... This is available to people age fifty or over with the er necessary amount of qualifying service which is generally two years. Erm and it's available to those people whose employment ceases in the interest of the functions. Again there's a pension and a lump sum payable and there is also the possibility of enhancement. The enhancement is entirely discretionary.... If erm if there is enhancement payable erm that part of the pension will ultimately be paid by County Council by the county council. So it will be quite separate from the amounts of money that you are receiving from the erm Paymaster General's Office. Applications for premature retirement erm they're dealt with slightly differently in the sense that once an application's actually approved, you will be issued with this with this form or a similar form to this one. So if somebody is offered premature retirement and they accept the offer, that form's automatically sent to you you don't actually need to apply. And that's really because it's it's erm you know it's for people under the age of of sixty. The redundancy erm... if somebody leaves under redundancy situation then there is an additional payment of redundancy payment payable. Erm again for those people have to be ov over fifty years of age and we operate in the maximum enhancement er provision. Which can be up to ten years, providing that doesn't take your service over forty years at the age of sixty or over what you would have attained had you remained in service until the age of sixty five. ten years enhancement in redundancy cases. Erm and the difference between premature retirement and redundancy basically is you do receive this additional one off redundancy payment. That's a tax free payment. In erm these are available to teachers who are under the age of sixty whose erm. To the extent that they can no longer satisfactorily perform their duties. Erm if anybody is actually interested in could I actually refer you to somebody in the personnel group erm Lynne. Lynne can actually give you you know more detailed information on infirmity allowances. Basically you do see enhancement in these cases. erm it's an automatic enhancement and it depends on your actual length of service and you know when you actually apply for the for the infirmity allowance. So it does vary generally speaking it tends to be six and two third years.... And again there is a lump sum and er an annual pension payable. But they they are for for teachers under the age of sixty.... Any questions at that point? You said that er the redundancy payment was non taxable which I'm delighted to hear. Er what about the lump sum, do we pay tax on that? [speaker002:] No the lump sum is also tax free. [speaker001:] If you're wanting to take er early retirement and erm you're wanting enhancement say you retire at fifty nine and you want some enhancement, can you ask for enhancement sort of up to sixty five or has it only got to be up to sixty? [speaker002:] Up to sixty. [speaker001:] Sixty.... [speaker002:] Anything else?... erm contributions and additional contributions.... You you actually contribute six percent of your salary and you know that's that's the sort of basic contribution. Er the pay eight point nought five percent so that's a total contribution of fourteen point O five percent to the er scheme. The index linking of teachers' pensions is actually that's actually met by the government and not the teachers' superannuation fund. You can there are various ways of actually increasing erm your pension... by paying additional contributions. Erm you know if you are short on service or you actually want to top up erm your total pension for service at the end of the day. And there are basically three ways of doing it. Erm there's a. There are additional contributions with the Prudential and you could if you if you wanted you could also pay free standing A B Cs through erm a company of your own choosing. In total you cannot actually pay more than fifteen percent... of salary to erm these... well to contributions so in effect you you're already paying six percent as your basic contribution so the maximum you could pay on any of these schemes is a further nine percent. Erm but you know they are the actual Inland Revenue. As far as years are concerned erm it's actually a scheme which allows you to gaps in your career.... It's quite a costly scheme because you're actually paying both the employer's and the employee's contributions. Erm but if somebody has had a gap for whatever reason, it is often the only method of actually covering it if you want to do something that involves the teachers' superannuation scheme. And the cost of what you're actually buying back, the service you're buying back is basically governed by your age and your salary and the amount of time you want to buy back. And there are various methods of actually erm paying these contributions. by monthly instalments or by lump sums. Erm anybody who's who's interested erm if you'd like to ask for a leaflet aft at the end of the session because the main thing is that you do have to take advantage of this while you are still employed in reckonable service. Erm so you have to do something now before you actually retire. Having bought back the service then erm that is what I referred to earlier as reckonable service. You to buy back however many years you buy back will count in your pension and lump sum calculation at the end of the day.... Something that's not actually mention there is withdrawn contributions. If I can just briefly mention them. Erm [tape ends] first of June nineteen seventy three, can actually be repaid providing you are still in service. Erm and the amount that you repay is the amount that you withdrew er plus compound interest at three percent per annum, so it's actually a much cheaper method covering covering that service. But it's only available if your contributions were withdrawn before the first of June nineteen seventy three. Has anybody actually taken advantage of that? Yeah I mean what you actually well you'll find that what you repay... erm you know that the benefits you receive in your pension lump sum will far outweigh the cost of repaying those contributions. So if anybody you know did that and hasn't yet repaid them I would strongly advise you to do that. but it's only available for contributions that were withdrawn before the first of June nineteen seventy three and you know if you didn't meet that particular date then the only other way of of covering gaps is which is far more expensive. Erm it actually talks in this fourteen A pen makes reference to the fact that the approximate cost of one year to buy it back it would add twenty under a years arrangement. Twenty percent of your current salary. Additional voluntary contributions with Prudential erm since about nineteen eighty eight the Prudential erm... entered into a scheme with the Teachers Pensions Agency er whereby you can actually er pay additional contributions to the Prudential. They invest them in various ways and at the end of the day you can use that erm policy to actually top up your pension or provide for increased family benefits and because it's a the administration costs er costs are sort of less than than you get with erm you know sort of taking out a policy with an individual company, on a one off basis. So it's erm the deductions are actually made from you know through the county council payroll er each month. And you receive an annual statement erm and at the end of ea end of period or when you a are actually retiring then you will be contacted and you'll receive you know sort of guidance on how to that money. circumstances at the time. The third option of paying extra contributions is free standing A B Cs. Erm you know that's that's taking out er a private policy. A policy with the sort of company of your own choosing. Erm which er the Teachers Pensions Agency or the county council will have no involvement in at all. entirely up to yourself to actually make provision to erm increase you know your own pension.... If anybody does want further information on A B Cs erm in the booklet in the information pack, the Your Pension booklet, it's it's actually handled through the Prudential the office in Reading but there is the address is given in booklet.... Any questions about [speaker001:] Yes I have got one. W with regard to the A B C erm conflicting advice from two sources. Erm the gist of it is that the money from the A B C er i you're not allowed to go over your forty eightieths of your pension with it. Now i is that right or wrong?... [speaker002:] It's probably right but it doesn't actually count in that calculation it's something quite separate. You know the money that that you're paying in A B Cs isn't classed at the end of the day as erm reckonable service. It's a separate facility. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So [speaker001:] But the money coming in from that A B C erm... it was somebody from Grimsby who got into terrible trouble not not problems really with the T P A. Erm having made these contributions erm he got a note to the effect from the T P A that erm some of the money that he paid in to the A B C had to be repaid to him as a lump sum because the money coming from that sum would have taken his pension over the forty eightieths. And the T P A for some reason weren't very happy about this so they re actually returned a lump sum to him. [speaker002:] Yes yes. [speaker001:] So he paid the A B C, went early as a result of ill health er but got a lump sum back cos he wasn't allowed to go across this. Now from the Prudential erm an entirely different picture. You know you're allowed to go up to nine percent as you say and you just pay as many years as you like. [speaker002:] Mm. I mean we don't actually get that involved apart from the fact that we did originally have a leaflet. I know actually only Prudential they are leading a campaign round schools I believe erm you know trying to get more teachers interested in A B Cs. Erm but I mean we do have erm a session with them and... and really all the information we gave was very sort of basic understanding. I think that one would probably need to be clarified directly with them [speaker001:] Okay yeah thank you very much. May I say Sandra I think this is probably an Inland Revenue ruling. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Because when the when all these schemes are set up they're only by agreement with the Inland Revenue and the forty eight year element will be one of the essential [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] points of agreement. And although they're the A B Cs are with a separate body you're still working within your scheme. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] So you're I'm I feel sure that it it is so. That you're limited to forty eightieths. Or if you're with another body that's agreed er seventy five er eightieths or whatever [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] then you would be limited to that. [speaker002:] you've actually got somebody form the Inland Revenue haven't you? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] During the next three days. [speaker001:] Right. Well I am here yes but er er not an expert. [LAUGHTER] No I think it is the basic part of he agreement setting up the original superannuation scheme. That all cont all er payments would be limited to forty eightieths. Although I've never I've not met this element before it's rather interesting. I was not aware that they were [speaker002:] . [speaker001:] they needed to refund A B Cs. Er I think my wife would like to take advantage of er buying back the service of the earliest before nineteen seventy three. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] To whom would you apply? [speaker002:] She would need to contact the Teachers Pensions Agency [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] in Darlington. And [speaker001:] Yeah how [speaker002:] the address is the back of [cough] [speaker001:] Can you make erm A B C contributions for past years?... [speaker002:] Well I suppose you could erm... I suspect it would be cheaper than but it wouldn't actually increase... your pension per se at the end of the day because it's as I said it's a separate you know it's a separate sort of erm income to your pension lump sum. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But I mean if you had a gap you I suppose you could probably compare the the difference between and A B Cs. [speaker001:] haven't got any but I understand there are tax advantages [speaker002:] Well yeah the tax is erm deducted at source if you like you know before [speaker001:] This is as opposed to a lump sum. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yes.... Because if you pay [speaker002:] I think you'd really have to you'd probably need to look at the booklet and then speak to erm one of the Prudential people about... you know the amount of time you were considering... paying contributions and the probably just weigh up the... benefits of of each scheme. [speaker001:] Right. The tax advantage is that if it's A B Cs by deduction you get tax relief, if it's by lump sum you don't.... [speaker002:] Anything else?... erm the actual pension benefits that are payable. As I said earlier the the pension is based on your total amount of pensionable service and that's teaching service on which you paid contributions. So erm... if you haven't opted out of the scheme er full time service, part time service if a teacher had elected to the part time scheme, and a supply supply teacher if a teacher had elected to the part time scheme. Erm and any other service reckonable service that counts in that calculation. Er for example erm any service that has been transferred in from another scheme. You know if you were previously in the civil service or some other private scheme which is transferable into the teachers' scheme. That all counts at the end of the day in your pension and lump sum calculation.... Er normally as I said earlier payable at the age of sixty erm and the benefits are based on average salary which is the best three hundred and sixty five days out of the last ten ninety five so it's the best year out of the last three years salary. For the average salary. Erm time of your actual service... and all of your service is aggregated over you know over your career. So if you do have some breaks erm subsequent service is added on to that. So at the end of the day you'll get a total amount of er years and days... times the average salary and that divided by eighty. In your lump sum you've normally er three times the pension. Where it will differ is if anybody has any service before the thirtieth of September nineteen fifty six... for that part of the lump sum the calculation is based on erm... is based on a [LAUGHTER] sorry oh one thirtieth of each year. Sorry about that. Erm whereas under this post thirty nine sixty six service is based on three eightieths of each year. So it does make a slight difference to the erm the lump sum. But generally speaking it's three times the pension. The lump sum is a tax free payment. The erm pension is taxable as earned income. Any absences that you've had erm for sickness full or half pay actually count in full for in these calculations as do erm any maternity leave absence you know providing you were actually receiving pay that's half pay or more then those absences count as if they haven't actually occurred.... That's just an illustration. Erm... thirty three years and a hundred and fifty days service. you know are worked through and and in that particular case all the service is actually September ninety fifty six. And you actually find the lump sum is times the annual pension.... The pensions are actually paid monthly and the payment date actually coincides with the day of the month in which you're actually born. And the lump sum will be paid immediately after you finish teaching. So for example if you finish on the thirty first of August, on the first of September the lump sum should be paid into your account. And the same would actually apply to the erm redundancy payment.... [speaker001:] when the pension starts When the pension starts. [speaker002:] When does it start? [speaker001:] I heard you mention the day you were [speaker002:] Yeah that's when it's actually paid. The actual payment date. So I mean if you were to finish on the thirty first of August then on the first of September. But if you for example you're born on the sixteenth of the month then that's generally when it would be paid on the sixteenth. The actual monthly pension the the lump sum would be paid on the first of September. [speaker001:] The enhancement from the does that [speaker002:] No in the case of a premature retirement where there is enhancement erm that's actually payable on the last banking day of the month so that will tend to be anything from the twenty eighth to the thirty first. So that's that's always at the end of the month. You may obviously you're going to have two payments coming in but you may well find that you know they're no longer on the same sort of day. [speaker001:] So the lump that you take the lum the the part of the enhancement that is the lump sum [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] That will from the authority the part that the authority pay, when is that when will that be paid in? You've said that the erm [speaker002:] Pension [speaker001:] T P A will pay the the large part on the first of September got that. Now when will the part that the authority pay for the lump sum come in, will that be at the end of August or the beginning of Sept or the end of September. [speaker002:] It should be at the beginning of September. [speaker001:] Right. So it should come at the same [speaker002:] It should be [speaker001:] time as the other one. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Right. But the the pension itself [speaker002:] At the end of the month [speaker001:] The the the authorities part will come at the end of the month and the T P S will come on the your birthday. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] Birthday date. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah got you. Thank you. Erm about income tax are they all taxed at source or do we have to do that separately. [speaker002:] I think they're actually taxed at source. But [speaker001:] The... the payments Sorry I wasn't I was just thinking. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Yes they're dealt with same way there's hardly any break between payment of salaries and onto superannuation. There's usually a change of paying departments not always but you'll find no no break apart from er the lessening of income. entirely as as you mentioned it's regarded as earned income. So it's it's taxed at source. At Yes in the same way as salary. As your salary is. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Can I ask erm the the authority bit of early retirement what happens if erm the county is disbanded under local er government reorganization which is a distinct possibility? Do do the other authorities pick up that automatically? [speaker002:] I don't know what would happen. [speaker001:] The answer must be that somebody will pay. [speaker002:] Well presumably [speaker001:] It's called the unitary authority the new one would be and I think suggestion is that the city would go separate as opposed to the county.... [speaker002:] The pensions are index linked erm to take account of cost of living. increases are applied erm in April each year.... Eligibility for such increases if somebody takes premature retirement and they're actually below the age of fifty five the increases don't apply until you attain you fifty fifth birthday. At that point your pension will be brought up to date and you would see an increase then and annually thereafter. Erm in cases of infirmity pensions, erm ill health retirements I mentioned previously the increases apply there from the very start so irrespective of the age in infirmity case the erm the increase does apply. Well your redundancy payment is a one off [speaker001:] Pension pension. [speaker002:] It it depends what you would get if your under the age of fifty five yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Redundancy payments [speaker001:] Yeah the pension's frozen for five years and and then catches up. [speaker002:] If you if you Under the age of fifty five. [speaker001:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] Erm can I move on to family benefits now a word about family benefits.... er the teachers' superannuation scheme the payment of erm widows widowers and children's pensions. Erm... and there are basically a short term pension is available. Long term pensions for widows widowers and children. There are also dependants' pensions. And erm a payment which is known as the death grant. So if a teacher actually dies in service you know whilst you are still employed in service er... first of all actually be a death grant payable. Erm there are various calculations for this but it's it's going to actually be at least one year's average salary. There would also be a short term pension payable er and this would be paid for three months at the rate of your pension or pay at the time of death. And that's paid erm to your spouse to you know to keep things sort of flowing if you like while the long term pension is sorted out. So at least there's income coming in for three months at the rate of your salary. Thereafter... long term pensions they are payable erm at whatever rate you provided for. So if all your service counted benefits the long term pension would actually be half your pension. For the married men all service from the first of April nineteen seventy two counts erm for family benefits. Before that you had the option of paying additional contributions to cover previous service so you will no doubt know if you actually took took up that option. If you did then the chances are that all your service will count for family benefits. Er for the married... married women erm, only service for the sixth of April nineteen eighty eight counts. So when that provision was introduced, you too had the option of paying additional contributions to cover previous service. Erm obviously if you didn't, then the widower's pension will be quite a bit less cos we're only talking about from nineteen eighty eight. Erm children's pensions they would be half the widow's or widower's pension and they're payable for dependant children up to the age of seventeen and for children who are in full time erm higher education and for one child the payment would be actually half the widow's or the widower's pension. If there were two or more children, then you would actually receive erm... twice that amount so you'd receive half the pension. So if you like the that pension plus the the widow's or widower's would equate to your pension.... Dependants' pensions, it's possible for er single people to actually nominate a financially dependant close relative to receive erm pension benefits in the event of your death. You do actually have to make these nominations whilst you're employed in pensionable service. Erm and that nomination would subsequently lapse should you marry or erm on the death, marriage or remarriage of the person that you actually nominated. If anybody actually erm would wish to pursue this one, you actually need a leaflet eight six one pen. perhaps like to mention it at the end of the session and I can arrange to get one of those sent to you. But you do have to make this nomination whilst you are employed in reckonable service. And again the person that you nominate does have to be financially dependant on you. [speaker001:] ?... [speaker002:] I'm I don't know precisely. It's it's quite a quite a while. Quite a few years. [speaker001:] Am I right, for any of these er nominations, you have to set aside part of the pension you would normally receive so that you actually receive a lower pension because you are making this provision. [speaker002:] Erm I think that's possibly a term called allocation. Where you can actually allocate part of your pension and to your spouse up to up to a third actually. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm to increase their benefits. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm... so so that is possible it it actually does mention on the fourteen pen it does erm where you can surrender part of your pension to provide a... a pension for your spouse or dependant after death. So you can allocate up to a third. The thing is having done that erm if circumstances change you couldn't actually you can no longer access that amount. [speaker001:] . Also am I right, the person in the provision has to be... [speaker002:] Yes it does, it's If anybody's interested in that provision, the allocation provision you do need to er to write to the Teachers' Pensions Agency. Explaining that you know you either want further information on it or you would like to erm you know take that one up.... The same provision applies I mean if... you allocated s so much of your pension and that person died then there's no way you can actually access that amount that you've allocated. It's once you've allocated it it's erm you know it's actually gone from your from your calculation. [speaker001:] So it's a risk you have to calculate.... [speaker002:] Yeah I suppose it is. Erm I know one of the erm one of Bernard's colleagues doe say that it's erm... it's I suppose it depends on your individual circumstances.... I suppose you've got to weigh up sot of various.... Any further questions there about er the benefits if you were actually to you know if you were to die whilst employed in reckonable service?... The family benefits that would be payable when a pensioner dies, very much mirrors erm those that would be payable if you were to die whilst employed in pensionable service.... There would be a short term pension normally paid for three months. This time it would be at the rate of your pension. as opposed to your actual pensionable pay. Erm the long term pension again would be at half your pension at best. Erm the same provision applies to the children's pension.... Half the rate of the widow's pension for one child and it would equate to that amount if there were two or more children.... The same provision is extended to dependants' pensions. As far as the death grant goes, erm for a pensioner that would only be payable erm if somebody actually died within year of leaving pensionable service, due to ill health, and they were not in receipt of an infirmity pension. [speaker001:] So if you're knocked down by a bus, that doesn't count. If you had an accident and you died as a result [speaker002:] I mean it's got to be some some illness I suppose that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So... so apart from the death grant erm the other the short term and long term pensions tend to mirror erm you know what would be payable should you actually die in service. [speaker001:] You said children would receive it if they were still in full time education, higher education [speaker002:] H higher education. [speaker001:] Did you say higher? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So [speaker002:] Well in full time education yes. [speaker001:] So even though they could be sort of twenty five? [speaker002:] Yes I mean we had a case recently I think the son was twenty four all these perpetual students. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Would that apply if they'd been independent but gone back into it? [LAUGHTER] That's what my son's doing. [speaker002:] Yeah. I'll check that one out for you actually I don't know. I I suspect it would. [speaker001:] Mm. Right. [speaker002:] You know if if they were if they were in erm in full-time education at the time. [speaker001:] It would depend on was claiming the grant and or whether he was claiming the grant in his own right. If he was claiming a grant in his own right he would be classed as independent. If he was claiming a grant in yours, I did I claimed when I went back to college, my twenties I actually claimed a grant but my father claimed income tax relief claimed under him. But if you claim it in your own right you'll be classed as independent, no longer dependant on you therefore you he isn't your dependant any longer. [speaker002:] That I'll check I'll check that one out. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [speaker001:] Can I make it quite crystal clear to my own mind, long term pension benefits it doesn't come automatically it only comes if you surrender part of your own pension thus making provision for. It isn't in addition to the pension you're getting, you have to be willing to give up part of your own pension in advance. [speaker002:] I think that's that's what I understand as allocation. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Dependant's pension is when you nominate a dependant person to receive benefits in the event of your death. [speaker001:] But [speaker002:] Which is quite separate to allocation. [speaker001:] So you don't have to surrender part of your pension with in mind. [speaker002:] Dependant's pension no no. No you're entitled to that you know that's the If you have actually nominated somebody and that nomination has been accepted by the Teachers' Pensions Agency.... But you you wouldn't be able to nominate your wife as a dependant. They would automatically say forget it. Erm it's a they talk here about nominating a parent, a brother or sister, or a widow's step-parents. Unless the benefits would actually automatically pass to your parents. Erm... Any further questions on family benefits? [speaker001:] Presumably if spouse has died, ... [speaker002:] Can I move on now to re-employment.... Er re-employment after retirement and the effects on your pension. Increasingly people are retiring earlier and you know asking about returning to work. Erm As far as how much you can actually earn without affecting your pension, those queries are dealt with specifically by the Paymaster General's office in Crawley. Erm and the de the details for for the P G O are given in this re-employment leaflet which is in the information pack. Erm but they deal with the how much you can earn without affecting your pension. The Teachers' Pensions Agency in Darlington actually determine what type of work affects erm your pension. Your re-employment earnings.... So if you become re-employed after retirement in a post which is outside of the education service, the civil service, local government, erm private industry, self employment, that work will have no effect on your teacher's pension. Also if you do any full or part time lecturing in University, that will not affect your re-employment earnings. But a former polytechnic, for example Nottingham Trent University, any work there would affect your pension. So full or part time work in University excluding the former polytechnics, have no effect on your pension. The reason for that I understand is that erm the sort of former universities, it's something to do with the superannuation scheme quite separate so it's all sort of based on their superannuation schemes. Erm as far as teaching employment goes, full or part time teaching, supply teaching in erm a local authority school, or in independent schools which participate in a teachers superannuation scheme, will actually have an effect on your pension. Now as far as actually calculating what effect, the re-employment earnings will have on your pension, er basically your pension and your reemployment earnings cannot exceed your salary reference. And the salary reference is the highest salary rate you've actually received during the last three years. It differs slightly from the average salary which is which is the best year out of the last three. The salary reference is actually the highest salary rate. Erm and that's the rate that the Paymaster General's Office use to determine erm you know how your pension will be affected. That salary reference is actually index linked each year so that your earnings can you know can rise without erm being affected.... as far as part time work goes and supply work, because erm that work is sort of quite spasmodic I suppose it can be I mean some people do a regular amount some do bits here and there. Erm they they work on er quarterly earnings. So within a pension quarter, the same ruling applies in that your pension and your re-employment earnings cannot exceed a quarter of your salary reference. And they measure the quarters from your birthday from one quarter to the you know the day in the next quarter. So if you like the first quarter will probable it'll be pro rata that's going to be less because it's it's only part of. Erm what you need to do if you are re- employed er you need to let the Paymaster General's Office know, and there is a form in the this leaflet asking you various questions. For example you know where you're going to be working and what the rate of salary is. How much you know you're expecting to do, part time, full time etcetera. Erm and we find in the office that we get lots of forms coming in from the Paymaster General asking us to confirm that mister X is employed you know on a on a part time basis. Erm now we advise you to fill that in once you do return to work because at least then they can let you know if you are going to exceed the limit. You know if you didn't fill it in, they would act actually catch up with you at some stage and you may erm if you had exceeded the limit be erm you know you may be issued with a demand for a cheque... for X for X number of pounds for overpayment of pension. So I would advise you to you know complete that form at the outset really just for your for your own sake. If you'd like to know specifically how much you personally can earn, without affecting your pension I would also suggest that you actually write to the Paymaster General's Office will work out the amounts erm you know the figure that you've got based on your particular circumstances. In cases of ill health, re-employment after ill health retirement, erm... you cannot return to work until you have been medically cleared. You know be medically fit to return. Er the same sort of provi provisions apply. The only difference is, that erm if you return to work in a part time capacity, and it amounts to half time or more, then you will subsequently be asked to undergo a medical examination. And if it's determined that you are to return to work then your pension would actually will cease. So I think that's you know that's an important fact for anybody who is taking ill health retirement. But erm you know they do sort of keep a close eye on what they're working unless of course they they are hoping to erm for their health to improve and to be able to return to full time teaching ultimately. But you know they they really need to watch how much part time work they are doing because it could mean that their pension will be suspended if they did work too much. generally speaking I think you can up to about half time without having any effect on your re- employment earnings.... Er the other thing is if anybody's taking premature retirement, you should also notify the Treasurers the County Treasury at County Hall, because re-employment earnings can have an effect have an effect on the erm enhancement that you receive. But the superannuation section at Treasurers would actually work work that one out. Erm again I i wouldn't have thought that you know odd days here and there would have any effect but if if it's going to more long term and the you know the amount increases then it could have an effect on your premature retirement compensation.... Any questions then? [speaker001:] What happens on the you may not be employed? [speaker002:] Erm the Teachers' Pensions Agen Agency's currently reviewing erm the work that can affect pensions. And I've had some conflicting information recently because, not very long ago they did say that any part time hourly paid lecturing in a college would have no effect on pension. But it did seem somewhat of a loophole actually but they ac are actually now re-examining that one, er and I think erm I mean they've since said that it does affect you know it it would be counted as work. As would sort of consultancy work, work undertaken on a consultancy basis. At the moment the advice they will give you is that erm you're okay, but they are reviewing the regulations and once they actually er reach a decision then that work will be. But generally speaking the criteria they tended to use was, if if it was work that would normally be superannuable under the teachers' scheme then that that was work that would affect re-employment earnings. But part time hourly paid lecturing for example isn't eligible work under the teachers' superannuation scheme although they are bringing that one into into the work that can affect. So they are really tightening up.... Anything else on re- employment? [speaker001:] question about if you get employment outside education although, has no effect whatsoever on [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] on so in and you don't even need to notify the Paymaster General or you don't have to notify anybody employment outside the teaching area altogether. [speaker002:] I think it does suggest in here that erm you should notify the Paymaster General's Office, even if you think that it is not [speaker001:] Even if you're right outside if you're industry or whatever. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Thank you. And why are we telling them this if it's not eligible for consideration as a possible way of depriving us of an cash? [speaker002:] I don't I mean probably it's just to be to the safe side. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] It's that that's simply the advice the advice that's given by the Teachers' Pensions Agency. You know either way to actually just let the P G O know. [speaker001:] Mm ah [speaker002:] But definitely to let them know if it if it is sort of teaching [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] teaching. [speaker001:] I think there's one advantage in letting the Paymaster know because he deducts tax at source, whereas your second employer may not, and it may be to your advantage to be paying tax Ah. in a paya P A Y E. Otherwise you'll have a lump sum later on. I see thank you, or gets paid in cash Mm. [LAUGHTER] They catch up with you one way or another. [speaker002:] Sooner or later yeah. [speaker001:] could that affect your income?... [speaker002:] Yeah i I would advise you to contact the er notify the superannuation section yes of any re-employment if you've taken premature retirement. Yeah how much effect it does have I don't know because where but I think it's it's really basis you know it's better to be safe than sorry.... Okay? Right that's it can I wish you all a long and happy healthy retirement. [speaker001:] Not the best of subjects to inject a little bit of humour but we did find er traces of it nevertheless. Anyway shall we show our appreciation [applause] [tape ends.]

[speaker001:] Right.... Over to you... Oh sorry... Do you want to put that on the full screen? [Brain:] Right so here we've got er the criteria surrounding P L C. I'm gonna start in reverse order. I ain't gonna start with the strengths we're starting with the... the threats basically to to that s er. Basically it's in the news at the moment and it's er... very prelavent to the criteria surrounding the company at the moment. So reading down there... number one threat, the shareholders. And most of you... are probably aware... that last year the the company tried to... renege on their P L C P L C status and buy out existing shareholders erm... and the furore surrounding that erm the price that they were trying to... repurchase the shares from the existing shareholders... er caused a lot of discontentment... er surrounding that scenario. So the actual shareholders themselves, I think there's about... forty one thousand of them,... in total are quite a big threat to basically the the management of the company at the moment with regards to the direction of the company and the actual opportunities... er for the future expansion and development of products and various market segments etcetera. [speaker001:] Sorry Oh terribly sorry. I didn't think we'd started. [Brain:] I won't repeat it [Mike:] Can you can you say that again? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Brain:] Right d developing the angle on the shareholders is the non-executive directors. Erm within the last two or three months I think they've appointed three or four non-executive directors. Erm... the main difference between a non-executive director and a director basically is that the directors are added to by the shareholders and are re-elected at the annual general meetings. These people are basically independent to the company but they are appointed... basically by the directors of the company in a capacity and basically er another safeguard or a check on the actual management... what you would call management er governance of the company. And it was one of the critici criticisms... that came out of the er I think it was one of the annual general meetings non-executive directors in there... to oversee... er basically as another control against... Mister himself I suppose really at the end of the day. That's what they're trying to aim at.... Moving down there, market barriers. Er and that basically... erm entails the fact that there's er a lot more er competition basically coming from Eastern Europe. It's not just er a case of er... North America dominating the computer scene there erm... er tariffs and trade barriers and what have you... erm in various non E non E E C countries... which i compose quite a... stumbling block for future and expansion in various... developing countries. Especially the Pan-Eastern Europe er Pan-Eastern Pacific... area. Which is quite a fast developing and growing area at the moment. Overseas competition... basically there again is... I mean... er erm... okay I mean I B M I mean they're collapsing day by day and... companies like I C L and what have you. And basically it's it's the actual thrust of overseas competition basically.... Not necessarily Eastern Europe but also from the Pacific Basin again there. So we're looking on Global terms here... erm basically... and also within the E E C so basically... to get market penetration. You can't just sort of think think about North America get it in isolation, you gotta look basically as... E er Euro P L C market place. The economic climate obviously... the present economic climate in the U K, E E C and the world is not exac exactly er assisting in any shape or form with regards to the development or growth or even stability. Erm so basically it's not just er a threat to the the actual market in general it's an even more acute threat to individual places within that market. As... er competition becomes even more fierce and er competitive and... yeah well the threat of threat to the... the weaknesses which are connected to some of the threats actually. Right... okay we'll work form the top down actually. Alan there... quite a big weakness within the company.... Erm by the city in the city institutions of London he's seen as quite a a robust character... but... they don't quite see eye to eye on the issues of the company. Public relations... well... as I've already outlined there the actual fiasco surrounding the proposed er share repurchase there... was a public relations nightmare form beginning to end. And also with regards to product development and actual... er image of the company there, the relations side is... quite weak. Financial performance that is basically the financial strength or weakness of at the present. Obviously it's losing market share... price competition impinging right down to the bottom line left right and centre. It's actual product range is... very fragmented. Erm basically... leading down there the products and corporate strategy there... they're having difficulty identifying what their product range. Who who their individual competit competitors are within those product lines.... So they haven't actually gotta formed a corporate strategy on the actual prod product development. Financial... individual erm competition within each market segment.... Opportunities.... Right here we go yeah number one opportunity satellite T V. And that nost that is not necessarily just based within the U K. It's it's it's the thing that's er keeping them going in various aspects but obviously, definitely on the European scale there... er satellite television... is an area which I would be very very surprised if they did not er develop a hell of a lot more.... Infrastructure, that's related to the actual infrastructure of the er microelectronics, electronics and... computer software market within the U K as as a rule. Erm basically as a new market opportunities come... he's gotta develop er and adapt to those any new opportunities that do arise.... Be it new products, new competition and new markets that do arise. And I mean the actual... the U K market those in those areas is quite developed and has got quite a reputation but obviously it has got... to be able to develop develop and adapt accordingly... over time. Market demographics yeah.... Erm... basically it's... er like the collapse of I B M makes a the total world market, things like that. And that's gonna create opportunities but also... er the possibilities of joint ventures... be it on a U K, Europe or the world basis er... joint ventures will I mean a lot more cooperation between er th the large players with regards to product development what have you. Rath rather than competing against each other to develop... basically their products have gotta be ab able to work with each others machines. sort of exchange technology... research and development.... And that basically that amounts to standardiz standardization of products. [61 1] So basically I B M P Cs and things like this [yawn] like that. [61 2] We can actually er... use various actual computer equipment er open systems er recently new development as well which basically a lot of companies have been inputting their share resources to develop this area.... Er the market we're looking at there the Pan-Pacific basin there especially showing a... market at the moment.... till the end of the decade... er I think it's... number one d er developing market so... that's the place that you want to get into.... The last... they have actually got some strengths. Erm... number one strength Alan erm... although he doesn't see to eye T eye eye to eye with er a lot of the city institutions and a lot of the shareholders... erm he he does know his business... erm... and he has quite a strong character, very forceful and. So he's... er in quite a strong position with regards to the actual... corporate governance and strategy of the company there which is.... The management staff, good quality staff, very high highly technical expertise etcetera so they've got staff there.... Non-executive directors, that is a strength... erm it's also a threat but it is also a strength but basically it's acting as a... sort of yardstick to control or actually guide the actual management right down from board level right down the company there.... Research and development. Well I'm only gonna a month ago they did actually er... officially announce the launch of a product there... it's the pen writing pad personal organizer there. So basically it's like a little computer there... and it reads your handwriting basically on your little... electropad there. like a glorified er filofax. Two hundred and ninety nine plus VAT is the... retail value....... Erm... which is... points up a weakness there on the public relations side there I mean going back to their... post share repurchase they said that they'd got no new products in the pipeline, no research and development... really sort of throwing... anything up in the near future. Two or three months after that he's got a new product out... they're trying to keep it slightly quiet and saying that it's not a world beater and... sort of er... go back to their more in innovative. But there again that's the shareholders er don't see... you know like to get a bit more er information and good public relations for the company. And... as a general outline it's a strength of the company U K P L C the actual... computer market within the U K has worldwide reputation for its quality, technical expertise and it has already got a good er holding in various companies all around the world. A being on a telecommunications base and the actual software associated with that as well.... Erm thank you... any questions? [Gordon:] Could you leave it on the... the er projector there [Brain:] Right yeah. [Gordon:] thank you.... Right anybody like to make any comments on that?... [Mike:] It was quite long. [Gordon:] Pardon. [Mike:] It was quite long. [Gordon:] Quite long quite long yes but I don't worry about the length the content at the moment. thought gone into that isn't there? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gordon:] Er one observation I would like to make is that you actually got certain items appearing in... er more than one place. Erm that tends to be unusual but in this particular case it is very relevant. And the the fact that you've got Alan there in the strengths and weaknesses is... without Alan may struggle... significantly because it's it's his management style, his vision which drives a company on. But the the weaknesses is that er he because he's a P L C then he's got to erm... kowtow to the system to the er the city... and therefore erm... that is always going to be seen as a problem for him... as am individual. He's gone part of the way along the r road by doing what you've just been describing non-executive directors but erm it could be a weakness if he's seen as a er... erm a business man and cavalier as opposed to somebody who fits in with the style that the city's always looking for.... Yeah?... Any other comments?... Alright well let's leave that one... for the moment. Erm thank you very much Brian and the team well done. Next group... [speaker005:] Now I'm sorry I haven't brought an acetate. [Gordon:] You haven't you're gonna draw right okay. [speaker005:] No oh just [Gordon:] Did you want a pen then to write on the board or not? [speaker005:] Erm [Gordon:] There's a pen there. [speaker005:] There's lots of them [Gordon:] There's lots of them okay well Erm it's entirely up to you if you want to write up you can. There's a pen I think in the white box behind you. But if you want to talk straight that's okay. [speaker005:] Yeah right okay I'll talk unless anyone wants me to erm put them on the [Gordon:] Right. [speaker005:] board. We've chosen er British Rail for our slot as opposed to Waterstones. And I'll go through some strengths that we feel they have and the monopoly obviously... is one of the er major strengths. Intercity gives them a very good image... if your journey was on time but it's definitely there as a a positive thing. Erm straight into the city centres of most major cities so you er if you travel by train you're there in the centre if that's where you want to be. Erm... with the electrification we feel that it's a... very clean and green way of travel. Erm bulk movement of materials... and the national network it has. We opportunities are privatization but we've also said that is a threat. Er specialist trains would be an opportunity we felt and the history of er trains to emphasize that. The communication that they now have with electrification. Franchises and train leasing... we think are opportunities but still possibly underneath the er umbrella of British Rail. Weaknesses, inflexibility of working practises. The image... erm particularly on the time keeping... of trains. Aging rolling stock particularly in the Southeast. Overcrowding on certain trains. Poor safety record. Erm... vulnerabilit erm vulnerable infrastructure and poor customer relations.... The catering we feel could do with erm... er... improvement. I know they've had several attempts at that but we still don't think they've got it right. And we think er in some cases it's very expensive.... And not happy about the structure of pricing for travel whether you have a single or return or s... erm a saver they er they don't seem to make sense in many cases. Erm the weakness is er... government requirements often inhibit.... Er threats,... again as I said privatization, lack of funds,... road haulage,... safety... erm again bad.... open profits making lines... will survive... we feel that's a threat. And er because of that then the price is out of the range for a lot of people to travel by train.... And coaches... long distance travel are coming in so that again is a threat to the erm... using British Rail. And the economic climate which we think is obviously a weakness. And those are... what we've... thought out for British Rail.... [Gordon:] Thank you very much. [speaker005:] Thank you. [Gordon:] . Any questions on that any comments? [speaker001:] Yes I don't agree with the poor safety record, in in in my view and I think it's supported by fact... that rail is the safest way to travel... anywhere... any time. Erm... this is quoted funnil finny enough by air travel,... that without question rail is the safest way to travel... and in fact to me that's a strength not a weakness. [Gordon:] M my my view of that was that's the one I'd a question mark against [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gordon:] cos I don't think it's the problem of a... erm a safety record I think it's the perceived [speaker001:] Right. [Gordon:] safety record [speaker005:] Yeah. [Gordon:] it's the perceived safety record yeah because in fact the statistics show it to be very very good indeed. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gordon:] Erm and it's a bit like timekeeping I mean they they've got their own system now for evaluating how good they are at time keeping and I think the... erm... the figure they try and hit is about ninety five percent isn't it of trains arriving on time. [speaker005:] I think it's the image that so many trains are late. Yes It's the image that Yeah [Gordon:] Well that's the problem. That's the problem. Again if you think about how many people actually provide their goods on time to their customers ninety five percent of the time or provide the goods and provide them on time that record is their record is very good. It's the perceived [speaker001:] But Gordon haven't haven't [Gordon:] Yeah yeah. [speaker001:] British Rail shifted the goal posts on time. [Mike:] Yes. [Gordon:] Right. [speaker001:] Because they couldn't meet... c couldn't meet what they were previously doing they have altered it in such a way as to make it easy to achieve. [Mike:] They've just added time on to all the journeys. [speaker001:] Yes. [Gordon:] But they've they've been doing that since er last century. [Brain:] Yeah but you gotta remember these are... that these are being posed on basically They'd be setting their own goals, targets and what have you. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Brain:] And they're having... these... X billions to finance er capital investment cos cos they're not a private company. I mean the furore about actually leasing trains has taken several years to develop... erm... And you just have to look at at the moment now and he doesn't know if he's sinking or swimming basically. Er a complete dead loss about which way to go and turn basically. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. [Brain:] Erm... you go back onto the performance guidelines that have been basically imposed... citizens charter really at the end of the day. [speaker005:] Well yeah I mean [Brain:] But a lot of I mean... I mean there's no sort of set- up and strategy for rail as a... sort of within an integrated transport policy phone call from er John Prescott who er Tories in in transport.... there's no sort of like ten year corporate strategy for British Rail. [Gordon:] You were gonna make a point there. [speaker001:] Well I was gonna come back on this record of safety. I mean one of the points we made there was that the infrastructure is vulnerable. I mean just because... it might be safer to... travel on the train doesn't... from the fact that the incidence of... where people gain access to the rails... and... there are near misses either to the drivers or the people on level crossings... or everything else. They're all added in just because they don't have an accident... doesn't might go for making it the safest... infrastructure perhaps. So safety is a thing which is... can't just be said Oh it's it's safer to to go by train than it is to cross the road. It's getting worse. [Gordon:] It depends if you're in the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time. [speaker001:] I mean y you you take a situation of... stuff getting dropped from bridges ont in front of trains. You know... quite apart from the fact that you get a situation where somebody sets fire to the infrastructure... and it closes down the whole of the East coast main line like it did two days ago.... It's vulnerable. but nevertheless its er its safety record is still a damn site better than the roads. What did you say about the cost? [speaker005:] Yes well the thing is that the erm we feel [speaker001:] What... it's the structure for the a for the average person. If you're if you're say a family with small children yes you can get all sorts of con concessions. If you're a student you can get concessions. If you're an old age pensioner you can get get concessions but for the average person who who isn't one of those no chance. Well the the situation is also that it's confusing in terms of Apex, Supersavers, Savers, Nonsavers er you can't travel on these trains at certain times, you've got to plan your journey three months ahead if you want to get the maximum savings and all the rest of it. You know i it's Yeah... you wanna have subsidies yo that you get on foreign rails you know you get Well that that's one of the arguments for remaining under government funding. next to nothing can't you over in... some countries.... [Gordon:] So it's confusing or overcomplex [speaker005:] Yes yes it is yes that's right it is. [Gordon:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Yes I mean we can understand that if you're gonna get a cheaper ticket you'll have to book well ahead and obviously they've got to... to try and ease the the overcrowding on... some trains. [speaker001:] There's one other point The sa the same applies for pricing... virtually to anything else if... if you're going to take the maximum advantage of flying by air you either have to book it well in advance through a package or whatever or whatever or else you'd have to go along and sit in a bucket shop hoping that somebody's gonna [speaker005:] Yeah that's right. [speaker001:] turn up with an empty seat. [Mike:] It's not as not as simple as that though. I mean if you walk into the station on a day wanting to get on a train there are still several different fares you can pay. [Brain:] is different from the cost per mile down South... on tickets as well. there's no standard thing [speaker001:] over the Southeast market cos they've got a captive market. Why does it cost me ten pounds fifty return from Darlington but if I take a single to Darlin to Darlington from York it costs me ten quid. [speaker005:] Yeah that's right. [speaker001:] I mean anomalies and there's different prices if you go from Cardiff to Bristol it'll cost you X amount if you go Bristol to Cardiff it costs you something different. They wanna get their act straight. [Gordon:] So it's the over-complexity of pricing. [speaker005:] Yes. [Gordon:] Yeah. [Mike:] I I had er a return ticket from York to Gloucester and I was fortunate enough to get a lift back... so I went into the station to ask if I could get a refund... on the other half of the return and they said Sure you owe us four pounds. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Because the price of a single was almost the same as the price of the return but to get a refund you have to pay an administration charge which when you add it all up comes to me owing them four pounds. And then they tried to take and I said Well thank you very much I won't have a refund after all. and they tried to take the bloody ticket off me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh I'm surprised they didn't charge you for the cost of a single journey. [LAUGHTER] [Gordon:] Right okay any more points? [speaker001:] Erm another strength I think erm and this is once again point of view but it it literally is er is the track itself track access. You y if you set out on a train under normal circumstances you're confident that you're going to arrive in London at At some point soon. As my daughter did on Sunday in two and a half hours. And er on the other hand you can get in your car and you can get down to suddenly find they've got the the road up or E G as we did coming down to York today there's driving his... his er surface lifter down the road and and er you're stuck in a traffic jam for a wee while er It can still happen on the train now now you're guaranteed you're you're stuck on electric... all you need is one fault at Northallerton two days ago and you close the East coast main line completely. it's more it's more Everybody who was on those trains it's more unlikely. Yes but on the trains you're stuck. Now in the car you can say Oh sod this I'll back-dive and double, drive this way, down there and you you skip it. When you go and buy your ticket and you're setting off on that day Mm. erm... you're warned in advance of any delays aren't you. wonderful wonderful last Easter weekend back from Glasgow we were warned there was gonna be delays and we were fortunate we were one of the groups who came back fairly early. There were other people who started back at midday... from Glasgow and got to York at midnight to find all the loos had been closed... and things like that. When it happens with a train it's it's one hundred percent you're absolutely stuck with the thing. you know if you've ever been stuck in this you know you've got an appointment somewhere... you know the the frustration's incredible. The sa the same thing can happen with air travel. blooming airport overnight. Or else you can be on the way back from from from Europe and suddenly find, Oh I'm sorry that plane's not leaving tonight Mister would you mind going and spending the night in the holiday hotel in so and so and so and so. Ah you spent the night in a Holiday Inn great on a train you're stuck on the train. It doesn't make The same thing could happen if you walked out of here this afternoon there there could be a bomb s threat between A and B wherever you're going... and you can't even get round a bomb threat on a train than I would in an aeroplane Robert. [LAUGHTER] [Gordon:] Okay I think we'll... as I thought we could actually start the discussion [tape ends] [speaker001:] Well who's gonna who's gonna be using the erm [Philip:] Erm... right er can we make a start ladies and gentlemen. Erm good day er my name is Philip... er I am the quality controller for the proposed Water Company. Er and I'd like to introduce you briefly to the company. Erm as the result of a a board of directors decision taken on er March twenty second nineteen ninety three... it was proposed that a a new public liability holding company named the Water Company be formed... er from the capitali er capitalization of assets currently surplus to requirements of the founding company namely. Er the York based company will be a wholly owned subsidiary of limited. Er trading is er expected to commence within the with the naming of the company at an opening ceremony at the registered office headquarters in York. The ceremony to be held on the twenty fourth of April nineteen ninety three. Er it is proposed that the Water Company er be formed with the express intention of capturing eight point five percent of the United Kingdom bottled water market. Er this being gradually achieved over a three year phased expansion period. Erm in year one growth... is expected to be within a targeted range up to two and a half percent. In year two er up to six percent and in year three eight percent of the United Kingdom bottled water market. The founding company is being use surplus existing production, manufacturing... sales, distribution and transportation capacities in the United Kingdom currently operated by limited. Er to that end now er I would like to hand you over to progressively to my colleagues. Er and the first gentleman I'd like to call on er is Mister Anthony who is our Marketing Director to give us a market overview and assessment of the product opportunity. [Anthony:] Okay. Thank you very much. Right now good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. And as my colleague has already stated we're a new company and we aim to capture eight percent of the... er U K bottled water market. Erm the way we've er determined this is through research by a market intelligence unit er which has been aided by retail market intelligence and utilized er as the basis of our research and our calculations.... Er we've used this to analyze the consumer preferences and purchasing questions indicated erm... through through this research. And they indicate there that there are excellent opportunities opening up in the United Kingdom bottled water market across the full range of available products commonly consumed and specifically identified friendly product ranges. The total available market consists of thirty percent of the total population of the United Kingdom. But this market is expanding at a rate of at least five percent and predictions and calculations show that this is far in e in excess of this base rate. The two ranges the firstly still water... and secondly bottled s sorry the two ranges are firstly still water and secondly sparkling water. Both ranges will be produced using both high quality Yorkshire Pennine water and good quality ergonomically practical using the York... er using... a good quality ergonomically practical co containers... using the own brand label. It is our aim to exploit this growing market the full range of resources and materials and systems that are available... er as previously mentioned by my colleague. Erm our marketing has been targeted on a geographical basis er on three main areas. The London region, Yorkshire and in Scotland. Again erm all of this information erm provided er backs up our... er our plan.Further market research based upon information has refined our target area groupings by socio and ec economic group, age and sex. Where these key indicators illustrate the most favourable conditions... er we are going to base our main advertising campaign and I'll now hand you over to my colleague. [Philip:] Er thank you Tony for that most illuminating insight into the bottled water market. Erm and I should now like to introduce er Thomas, Director of Public Relations, who will talk us through 's product brands and competition followed by a detailed review of where our product fits into the market and it's U S P.... [Thomas:] I wanna Right the products erm... the product brands and opportunities erm. The main competitors are are Perrier Water with te twenty four percent of the market, Highland Spring with six percent, Well's Soft Drinks own label er twenty eight percent, Nestle four percent, er Coca-cola Schweppes four percent, Evian fifteen percent. And there are forty other companies... erm which have eighteen percent of the market. Er Okay... other com competitors we've we see are er all companies which sell mineral water. Erm to include ourselves. Erm people like Tizer, people like Coca-cola. Now these are huge companies with vast volume of sales in the flavoured er drinks market. Now we see ourselves entering into this market... not immediately... but in the not too distant future.... Er our intention would be to direct our advertising towards the natural fresh qualities of the product and the powerful lobby of the Greens. However... the flavoured water is not our first priority. At a later stage erm in our program we would also be looking at larger containers of erm of water er something like... well in our third year... erm five litre... canisters.... Now another very another and very important er competitor is the water boards. Erm and they have problems with er the quality of water... and the sa standards not re reaching the sort of specifications er the pu public not trusting the er product and and consequently looking for alternatives.... Er seasonal shortages erm the droughts of recent years particularly in the Southeast have made supplies of good drinking water less than secure. Erm and er... that's where erm records show us that er... wa bottled water is. Erm as it happens this is the area where a spring of mineral water here for er for us to exploit. Erm fluor fluoridation erm er this is a particular prob problem for many people who don't like additives to water. Erm and spring water produced within the regulations of the E C would be pure of any additives.... Our market we see our market as being national.... would give us their backing and channels of distribution... er we shall be in correct in direct competition with our competitors in the a areas which we consider to be most profitable.... We shall place our advertising where it will be most cost effective.... And we shall continue to update our sales strategy... as we see the the market develop.... Our product... our product... is first class Yorkshire spring water obtained from the springs rising from the Pennines... bottled in Yorkshire to comply with... erm U K national mineral water regulations... E C directive. Er we shall be producing it in three hundred and thirty C C bottles to meet the demand for mixer drinks and a small bottle for trade market. will be produced in both still and sparkling excuse me... as per bottle.... We shall be producing in Tetrapak... and for s er for machine vending and supermarket shelves.... In litre bottles er both still and s sparkling for use in bars and in and in a house where there's regular use. In two in two litre containers... still only in this case to cater for those people generally er generally needing a larger supply available in the home, in caravans etcetera....... All these will be competitively competitively priced erm alongside market leaders in price for quality.... Whilst we recommend a retail price for all sizes as with all similar product on the market... it will be up to the vendor to adjust for the prices... the margins that they require.... Our unique proposition... is bottled in blue glass... erm... the unique proposition er bottled in blue glass to ref reflect the clean... cut image which is different to our competitors.... And also using the distribution of... of deliveries to the door daily we can also use the sales staff to as assist us in distribution. Okay right... [Philip:] pretty encouraging view of approach to the bottled water market and to the anticipated stance therein. Er I hope that now that Anne who is our very capable financial director will enlighten us with a breakdown of costs and an insight into targets with attendant indicators of relative volumes.... [Jane:] Right erm I'm not sure actually whether you're going to be able to see this because. Erm my initial talk is on the actual breakdown of the costing for this exercise. Erm I've broken down the costing into each of the sizes we will produce, the thirty three millilitres, the one litre and the two litre sizes. I've also broken the smaller ones down into the cost for the still and the carbonated water. Erm... the actual percentage of the ingredients used over the first year erm is about five percent for water, twenty three point six percent for the bottle, I'll explain that later that's quite high, the cap is four percent, one percent for the gassing,... erm one percent for the case, two point seven percent for labour, four percent for transport, a general overhead would be about seventeen point one percent. Erm... we've made a provision for interest... payable on the loan... on the assumption that we may have to borrow money on an overdraft basis. And we've made er that's erm accounts for about one point six percent of the total cost. For the advertising which is the biggest erm... amount we have to spend on is actually forty percent. The advertising's actually larger than other products are currently spent on their advertising but w we feel that with the launch of a new product and trying to catch eight and a half percent of the mar market over erm three years that we do need to spend heavily in the department so like I say that's forty percent. But that's only in the first year, in the second year erm the percentage will reduce quite rapidly and we're only spending half the second and third years. Erm back to the bottles. Now we had quite a problem trying to obtain erm a bottle size the two litre size at a reasonable price when we set out on this er thing. So it's costing us approximately twenty pence for each bottle and that's very high, that's a very high quality bottle. We've just been in discussions with the manufacturers and we actually but we're hoping to get a discount on that in the near future so we're hoping the cost of that will come down. The contribution erm made by each of these products after we've used an average sales price erm is seven and a half pence... roughly for the smallest size, erm about eighteen pence average for the one litre size and eleven twelve percent twelve pence sorry for the large size. Erm the large size is really a relatively it it's a smaller percentage of the market so we've had to price it as far down as we can that's why our contribution for the large size is not as large as the... Erm the overhead the sorry the capital costs erm will be a total of two hundred and ninety thousand which is two hundred for factory extensions, eighty thousand for plant and ten perc ten thousand for the gasser.... Erm the pricing of the product. We priced it at a wholesaler price, a retailer price and a con the price of a consumer. Erm... the small bottles will be b er be between thirty two and thirty five pence to the consumer. The market average is about thirty one pence but we feel that we can cos we're proc producing such a high quality product that we can raise the price above that. For the one litre size the average price is about sixty seven pence. Whereas the market size is it it varies considerably. We've found that own brands are from thirty five pence up to the top quality brands are something like eighty five pence and we feel we've hit the market in the middle there. So we're quite happy with that price. Erm the two litre size now like I say once again we're having erm problems with getting erm an economical... er cost for the bottle of this so our price is actually slightly higher than the other market price. Once again the market price erm for this size is from fifty three pence for own brand sizes up to about eighty pence for up sorry eighty two pence for erm the top quality products. Unfortunately we're gonna have to market ours at about eighty two pence, but we feel this is quite reasonable considering that the vast the biggest sales of this two litre size would be from the milk floats and would delivered to the door. So we feel that's quite reasonable.... And the market the market size really for in year one is two and a half percent which is fourteen and a half million litres of water. Year two is six percent which is thirty four point eight million litres of water. Year three eight and a half percent of the market which is forty nine point three million litres of w water. Erm we feel quite confident that we can reach these targets.... Erm and that's the product analysis erm from my part of the the team. Thank you. [Philip:] Thank you Anne for that very detailed and realistic view of the potential available to the company er I'd now like to call on Tom again er to give us a highlighted familiarization of the advertising and promotional campaign Water intend to pursue... [Thomas:] Right our adverti advertising and commercial campaign. Er to reach our target objectives we ha we need a very strong sell to the trade.... Including a large and sustained advertising campaign. Now initially... er starting er starting May er for suppliers to be the adverts for from the beginning of the summer holidays and then looking forward to the Christmas trade. Right well first of all the first thing we can probably do is broadsheet to the trade introducing product and incentives.... And it would be something along these lines.... This is the the front of the broadsheet which would go to the trade.... And followed by er the message inside. Okay which says, er intr introducing our new product range of spring water available from May the first ready for the summer trade. And then it goes into the details of erm the various sizes which we have. In three hundred and thirty C C bottles, er the still will be in gold top and the sparkling in silver. And as for your customer a mark of quality mixer. In Tetrapak for the machine vendors and those with who prefer this in er this environment friendly pack er package. In litre bottles to cater for everyday use in the house, the restaurant, the pub, the club. In two litre bottles for the heavier users of fresh spring water. Trade incentives, one case free for every ten purchased in the in introductory period... which we've foreseen as four weeks. And fifty pence per case rebate for orders during er introductory period as well. We shall be delighted to receive your order by telephone or when our representative visits you. There will be heavy T V, post and press advertising commencing in June. There will also be the opportunity for your customers to save bottle tops for or pu or purchase heavily discounted quality goods.... Okay.... We at the at the initia erm the initial opening as well we've we would er er offer an invitation to the press and the media to attend our launch meeting er from from this we would hopefully get some advertising in as much as apply to erm and er... hope t to get X amount of the market. That generally works.... We shall have a four work sell-in to the trade via representatives... er they will have funds available to purchase shelf facings in supermarkets, cash and carries if necessary. We re we require a hundred percent distribution in all of our direct customers by the end of week four.... All major outlets to be visited by week one. Major outlets being cash and carries, erm supermarkets, wholesalers etcetera. In the medium term advertising in trade magazines to cater for information of the launch getting to the indirect trade. That's the people that we don't call on... erm with our representatives.... We would we would like to build distribution in the in in this market with the use of specialized agency teams. Er we're we're aware of the costs and the effort er and that effort may have to er be delayed. Erm in the long term... that is er six weeks onwards er we would go into T V, press, posters and sampling in the store.... Right.... Er advertising as I said T V, poster sites and press... and point of sale. And we will see... er our advertising al in all the media media... er going along these lines. So that would be for example poster sites... and that for example would be er point of sale. A show-card if you like. And if you notice what we're trying to do is with our er illustration here er is to reflect the the gentility if you like of the Yorkshire hills and Yorkshire dales and we have a logo of our own which appears in the corner of the screen.... And can I also add that that follows on with the pictures if you like on the bottl on the label in the bottle. We're also considering and will do our leaflet drops erm giving money money off value er value perceived er gifts. And what I mean by that is for example er a pan like that we can buy for a quid which happens to be a. Er with a perceived value of something like ten or twelve pounds but er... that can be self financing with the profit on the bottles that the bottle tops that we ask for. For example if we make say for example five pence on the bottle and we or for cap... er one of these for twenty bottle tops, that's a quid which is paid for. So that's self financing.... Erm in store we're thinking in terms of purchased shelf facings. If they if the er store is not gonna us enough enough facings then we will be prepared to purchase them.... Just a note for you. Er T V costs are thirty seconds of on all channels costs approximately two hundred and ten thousand pounds. To make the film would cost you something like a hundred and twenty thousand pounds. Er if you want to go local erm... say on towns it would cost you perhaps forty three thousand pounds for thirty seconds. However spots can be purchased for seven seconds and a pro pro rata charge is made.... Er full page newspaper in nationa national dailies is averaging about erm twenty thousand. Although the telegraph costs twenty seven thousand pounds for a full page and twenty thousand.... As I said er trade incentive incentives fifty pence per for every ten purchased introductory or er order only.... Erm advertising ex expenditure will be heavy and varied and will change as our three year er plan evolves. Our needs of the cam campaign are perceived. We er we intend to break into profit in year three when we should have recuperated our expenditure.... Right the ima the image we're seeing is freshness, cleanliness and health. Erm... have agreed that we can take over two of their sponsored events er which is golf and tennis and it would be something like erm... golf promotion. Now you might... that will get us on T V and it it is also self financing as well in as much as you set up the promotion, the T V companies but it off you. So it doesn't cost you anything in.... And both these events are in keeping with the image we're seeking and as I said self financing. Pe the fees are paid by the T V companies to cover this event.... Our advertising budget... two and a half percent of the market the first year. We're gonna make a loss of one one million one hundred and seventy seven thousand with an advertising spend of two and a half million. Erm the second year six percent. We will in actual fact make a profit in the second year... erm although that's gonna be against the fi first year loss.... And the third year eight perc eight and a half percent of the market we should in fact of two million two er thirty hundred and thirty four erm thousand pounds.... Er note we're flexible in our advertising budgets against make a profit in year three. Erm I personally feel although some members of me team don't agree er with the with the heavy a advertising expenditure we've got, we can probably do better than two and a half the first year certainly erm and maybe ten percent of the market in the end of the at the end of the day.... Right.... Advertising where it goes.... These are preliminary er first year er two by thirty second spots half a million quid but that's national. Erm a thousand poster sites at say five hundred pounds per site... would cost half a million. And national dailies five dailies would cost you about four hundred thousand pounds. leaves about one point million pounds one point one million pounds to cover intr introductory incentive leaflets, buying shelf space, added value goods, money off incentives, point of purchase. But the budget will be continually scrutinized er and adjusted to er suit the situation that we're in at that stage.... [Philip:] Er thanks Tom that was really quite dynamic and breathtaking and I think you'll all agree. Er now some more practical and down to earth aspects... er Michael director of development will run through the critical path analysis for the new factory extension. Ah yes I thought that would er take you by surprise I noticed the sharp intakes of breath there erm but even now we're thinking in terms of expansion. [speaker010:] Thank you very much Philip.... My brief... was to do a C P A for the factory extension. Erm and also decide the dependence, draw up the network, decide the critical path and decide what action could be taken to reduce the overall project by three days.... On the C P A... on the C P A of the factory extension [cough] what we've done... we have ordered the digger... which is taking a duration of seven days. So the digger will arrive on site.... We will continue to from two three we will continue to dig the foundations in the mean time we hope the concrete the concrete will be arriving on site to complete those footings. At the same time it is my belief that while we were do doing the footings we can also the concrete to fall in line where we will erm put the main floor in. Erm during the course of the footings and flooring taking place, bricks have been ordered to come in where the walls are being built together with the joinery. You'll see a dotted line coming off on er ordering the bricks it comes in here er to er the roof structure. Now at the same time as ordering the bricks I'm taking on myself to order the tiles for the roof at the same time. [Philip:] Thank you Michael for that exciting view of the forthcoming plans for the expansion to cope with this new vibrant market. Erm... now it's my spot er and it's a quality promise. We at Water undertake to supply each and every cherished customer with a product that is clear, cool and healthy to drink, free from contaminants and eminently potable. It will be maintained within the requirements of W S D eighty oblique seven seven eight and all new MAFF directives. MAFF being spelt M A double F capitals. Erm... er by continuous process control so that we can say this is water. Erm now for the moment we've all been waiting for... er what this means in terms of er profit loss and cash flow and Anne will once again enlighten us... [Jane:] I do realize out of time this so erm I'd like to just g erm go through the profit loss for one year quite quickly. Erm as you can see the sales in the first two are expected to be four point nine almost five million pounds. Erm the cost of sales is two and a half million pounds which gives us a gross profit of almost two and a half million pounds. You'll notice on the overhead cost the big cost is the advertising which is two and a half million pounds and that unfortunately takes us into a a net loss at the end of the year of one point almost two million pounds.... Erm I've now set out the budget details for the three years. Erm... I've also erm put down the side of year one the actual percent of the cost for each of them. As you can see once again the advertising is a problem in year one which takes up forty percent of our actual cost of the total product. In year two this actually drops down to twelve point six percent and in year three down to nine five percent. Erm... year one once again we said we'll make a loss of one point almost two million. In year two we're expecting to make a profit of one point five million. You'll also notice that we put a provision in there of half a million for expansion of packing cos we believe that we may need this... erm with the production of the o you for... the carry on. [Philip:] Thanks Anne that sounds wonderful. Erm so it's okay Mike to you to summarize er all of this for us. [speaker010:] Fine okay thanks Philip. Well erm... in complete summary I'd just like to go through three points again. A the product. The product is a very pure natural water from an underground spring with with a clean taste, high in calcium and low in nitrates. It has undergone two stringent two years of stringent tests and is produced in two forms a carbonated and a still version. The competitive edge. Water is committed to the development of effective competition and has been instrumental in many changes. Competition in the British market for water today is a reality with some forty plus rivals complet competing for a share in this growth area. We believe that the quality of our product together with doorstep deliveries, our unique selling proposition is highly valued by our customers. These arrangements are part of a wide ranging package of service s standards drawn up under the campaign banner of a commitment to customers. Which marks the latest development in the company's long standing programme of customer care. We further believe that in carrying out these arrangements we enhance the company's reputation, its quality of product, flexibility and responsibility within the market place, together with its personal service and image. Future development. The company has always had a substantial research and development program and it will continue to develop s its businesses within the U K and take advantage of any appropriate profitable opportunities to extend operations. Expansion by way of export to the E E C is envisaged within the next twelve months. Market research has shown us that people are far more health conscious and far more sensible about what they drink. If you don't want an alcoholic drink, mineral water is an acceptable alternative. Young people especially just take it for granted and order it automatically. So move over Perrier you've got a new Yorkshire rival. [speaker001:] [applause] [Philip:] At that point I just want to stand up again because I think I've put very little into this altogether because I wasn't here. I'd just like to thank the fellow colleagues of my team for the effort and I regard er a very worthwhile and creditable performance. Thank you one and all. [Gordon:] Right okay now who's got some questions? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gordon:] Ah right well who wants to fire first then? Go on Mike you had your hand up first didn't you. [Mike:] Right erm the thing that disturbs me actually is this advertising budget so could you... can you tell us erm what the timing of this advertising is in terms of Yeah can you turn that over please. [tape ends] [speaker001:] Range er of information that you're gonna put out to that person... so that he can bring in o other customers to your arms. I mean you know a lot of people don't have the orange juices and the eggs and everything else that do cos they milk delivered day. How are they going to be able to join your network of doorstep deliveries. Well I mean the most of them will obviously go to the cash and er to the er supermarkets and pick it up. But they're going to be cut out from the two litre bottle range er if they've got a bad back or these sort of situations. Oh yeah right well I mean we could leave that to our representatives if you like erm... to erm to cater for those those milkmen erm... in the same way as the milkmen. You know we'll always be and continually be looking for a er fresh outlets erm to sell our product. That's a great... benefit of doing it sort of erm nationally. [Philip:] The intention was that we should set out to count the big sales first. We want the turnover we want the the input and and then er having succeeded hopefully by year three when we've er as we've maintained making a profit we will then look at some of the marginal sales as we would call them to er some of the smaller people. That obviously entails er a a great deal more overhead in terms of distribution. [speaker001:] Most of the market seems concentrated in the er initially in the two litre area for er to the centre of our sales would be in in that area. And er over a period diversify into er different markets. Do you not see any problems with the clergy using the name? Oh we we've already spoken to the Archbishop [LAUGHTER] Do you have to pay any fee for using the name? Yes we've er spoken to the council as well and we've er received all the authorities which are necessary from the York council and er everybody is happy on that. [LAUGHTER] Ah we we we know somebody up there. [LAUGHTER] When you the title you're talking about Pennine water a link between the two. Yes well the reason for that was the erm... the name is to do with the way we commercially market the product. Er we're targeting three particular areas. We're targeting the area around London, the area in Yorkshire obviously and in Scotland because the er socio ec and economic roots provide er the right kind of market for our product. And er is a very well known er place indeed and we feel that people throughout the country indeed throughout the world can identify with. And it will also aid the tourist industry in York by providing people with a focus to using the material we have here they can identify with it and... it may increase the er the trade... er in York. You say that you know your main one of your main targets is the London area. Do you see any problems trying to push a Yorkshire product in the London area? Well there are a lot of people from York shire in London. And the marketing shown that people who buy this product are mainly the young women in socio and ec economic groups A and B and er a lot of er women like to be like Yorkshire women [LAUGHTER] That that that that kind of [Jane:] also like to point out that Highland Spring is is erm a national product. [speaker001:] The highland springs are seen as natural but to me the Pennines... a rather grimy image. They've not got a fresh spring image. Oh well that's you [Philip:] Er in addition to which er the the the problems that Perrier had erm er I've forgotten exactly how long it is ago now but probably er two or three years ago er when they had er contamination through [speaker001:] Have you got a slogan at all? Pardon? Have you got a slogan? We don't particularly need one I don't think. [LAUGHTER] Spring water from the Pennines that's a good the T V adverts thirty seconds is a long time Yeah right. Ah yeah but I think you er misunderstood what we were saying. Thirty seconds is to produce a film that's a long time we did talk about seven second slots as well Yes. which we can flash on. So you'll be using Oh yeah I mean we're only talking about a couple of initially er large erm thirty second spots if you like. They're too expensive you know for the sort of profit we're going to to go into too much of that. [Philip:] The the intention of the film is to sort of er create er the the the backdrop to this product. In other words er pictures of er springs emerging from er Pennine moorland er backdrops etcetera etcetera they're just to give you the backdrop. To which Tom says the the essential punch will come from the er seven second advert. [speaker001:] Mm. Bearing in mind that there's something like forty companies chasing about eighteen percent of this market, do you honestly feel that your advertising revenue is going to go down as quickly as feel if you want to try and keep ahead of the the pack and keep up with the leaders. Well the there are only really three main competitors so are are people in in the market. And er we intend to er capitalize er on our and indeed er makers of Highland Spring Water their market share is reducing and we intend to capture that portion. aren't they. [Jane:] We did also point out er the advertising budget would be reviewed. [Philip:] er if we go in front of the... of our objectives then we're on there's obviously more money to spend. [speaker001:] is quite high bearing in mind the fact the national average.... How are you doing, are you... You're gonna you're saying you've got a problem with the cost of the bottles... these are the blue ones? [Jane:] no these are the large ones. [speaker001:] The large ones [Jane:] The two litre size because of course the two litre is not well it it's erm we just had problems with erm finding somebody who would give us a er good quality bottle. [speaker001:] The the small bottles are glass though. Are they reusable or recyclable. Well actually most people have most people want them for souvenirs. Cos that's where that one came from. say sort of environmentally friendly and [Philip:] Yes we we envisaged that that bottle it it it has a certain sort of... cache about it so we we we expected that that er a lot of sales for that eventually would go through the on trade and er obviously if it's on trade then er the thing is automatically re-collectable and recyclable. [speaker001:] Well there is a problem with recycling blue glass because of the colour. [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] Well not recycling bringing it back into the thing, washing it and and refilling. [speaker001:] It may not help the advertising use blue but green. Well there actually is a s spring water bottle actually producing already so [LAUGHTER] [Jane:] We actually think that that blue bottle will stand out when there's no other [speaker001:] As long as it's not next to to er Domestos [LAUGHTER]... [Gordon:] Can I just ask a couple of questions before we finalize before lunch. First of all can I talk about the erm how you're going to execute your advertising campaign. Because you're talking about a national launch er with a national campaign er developing one image. Er with one T V commercial and yet you've said that your initial thrust will be erm in three areas. First of all London, second Yorkshire and third Scotland. How you attack those markets can be different in the sense that in er London the penetration of erm er mineral water into the target market is very high and therefore it's already an accepted practice. Whereas in Yorkshire the penetration and usage is very low perhaps the lowest in the country erm where there is still very much a heritage of, Well what's wrong with what's in t'tap lad? Erm and so the approach has to be quite different. And Scotland where there is a very strong national heritage and how are you going to push Yorkshire water into an area where there is a high heritage of water? Can you do that with one advertising campaign or do you plan? [speaker001:] Well initially we we're we're going to we're going to go nationally but very quickly we're gonna see where erm our strengths and weaknesses are erm and we know already where the erm the large market is and once... we've had a couple of T V spots to make it known nationally erm in the end of course we're gonna have to erm probably concentrate on those areas which erm er which'll give us the best return. not only which er erm one of the big strategies of ours is using er and we think we can get into a considerable number of homes with leaflet drops etcetera erm er by using... that er arrow. Okay. Well one one of our key key er marketing er tools is the markets we're actually aiming for and I er agree with you we are going to diversify and it is an on ongoing campaign but er our s the er targeting's based on the socioeconomic group er of the population and the differential er of purchasers is going to be fairly minimal because those will be very similar people throughout the entire country. Erm so I take I understand your point we are aware of it and we think our campaign will take take er those factors into account. And diversification will er occur somewhere. Okay. I think we all talked about flexibility and you know that's... what it's all about really.... [Gordon:] What consumer research have you done to er enable you to charge a premium price for your water? Is it of a higher quality and accepted by consumers?... [speaker001:] Well the er water quality is e exceedingly high and [Gordon:] Technically you said that already but what about er sort of consumer appreciation? [speaker001:] Well the er consumer appreciation outlined er again that's divided into two areas and it's based on the socioeconomic groups and the purchasing patterns of the members of the public. [Gordon:] Right. [speaker001:] And er there are two distinct markets. One for bottled water and er the the the the large [Gordon:] No I'm not I'm not interested in the socio groups what I'm saying is what research have you done to confirm that the [speaker001:] Well we have done research [Gordon:] actual taste of the water is right for your target market. [speaker001:] Well we have done research by sampling tests inside [Gordon:] Right. [speaker001:] er supermarkets etcetera er from time to time. Erm and those people who have been asked the specific question, Would you pay a premium price for this water as against that which you're drinking? said yes. [Gordon:] Fine thank you. And the last question I want to raise with you is that erm how do you feel about your initial problem on pricing? You're talking about er three thirty mil going out at a premium price, erm your one litre at an economy price and your two litre back at a premium price. Do you think that variation in pricing strategy will be er contrary to what you're trying to do in terms of your image projection for the brand? [speaker001:] It could be. It could be. [Gordon:] Right how do you er plan to address that issue? [Jane:] In effect although although the water is the same product it's there is a slight difference in the marketing of each one of them. [Gordon:] Right. [Jane:] The small bottle once again is is the attractiveness of the bottle and we've found that to be very attractive and people are were very willing to pay a premium price for something like that cos as Thomas said people are buying those bottles to keep them erm initially. So we feel that we can actually get away with a premium price on that. The biggest market is the one litre size. That's a vast erm... that takes up a vast erm proportion of the market. It's also the highest proportion of our oi erm production for these reasons and of course it has the greatest return pocket in that. So we really need to keep that into a price competitive with other erm er competitors. Erm the two litre size is we i the vast majority of the market there is going to be on the doorstep and we feel that we could get away with a premium price because of that. But I understand your concerns that it may affect the erm. [tape ends]

[speaker001:] So... we can read that... and just put the towel on the table.... Right. If you'd like to tell me... how many... how many sixths you think there would be in a whole one. [Kerry:] erm... [John:] How many fourths would there be in a whole one? [Kerry:] Erm... [John:] How many... how many halves? [Kerry:] Halves... erm... two. [John:] Right two so... is you shared it out between two people you get a half, one, twoth, one over two. If you shared it out between three people how many so they all got the same... how many would they get?... Can you show me how much they'd get?... [Kerry:] Yes. [John:] If you shared it out between three. [Kerry:] Mm.... Should I put it together first and then [John:] That's it... [Kerry:] Three. [John:] So... which piece if there were just three of us, you and me and the dog [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] sharing out a pizza... how big a piece would we get. [Kerry:] A third. [John:] A third. So share it out between three you get a third. If you share it out between four people how much would we get each? [Kerry:] A quarter. [John:] Good a quarter. Share it out between six people? [Kerry:] A sixth. [John:] A sixth good. Share it out between ten people? [Kerry:] A twelfth. [John:] How about [Kerry:] Mm [John:] Ah okay share it out between twelve people. [Kerry:] A twelfth. [John:] Have a guess share it out between ten people. [Kerry:] A tenth. [John:] That's it. Share it out between twenty people.... [Kerry:] A twentieth. [John:] Good er share it out between five hundred people.... Or between a hundred people. [Kerry:] A hundredth. [John:] A hundredth. Share it out between a thousand people. [Kerry:] A thousandth. [John:] That's it. So you've got it haven't you you know that's that's all it means. All a third means is that's what you get if you share one between three so they all get the same. Er what does a sixth mean? [Kerry:] That... there are six people there are six of us could have a maybe [John:] Between six people and they're gonna get the same that's all a sixth means. And which one of those is a sixth? That's it okay. What does a twelfth mean? [Kerry:] Erm... that if there was twelve people they'd all get the same piece each. [John:] That's it that's all there is to fractions. And which one's a twelfth. That one.... Well I think you're doing very well on the fractions. Okay we'll leave that for a minute and we'll have a look so you can forget all about it right then I'll ask you later when you've forgotten okay. Let's have a look at erm what you did with the the numbers then. [Kerry:] I've done I've done... the ten one. [John:] Okay. Erm now do you know any of these? You know five add five don't you. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Erm I'll turn that over... erm right and I'll say a number and you tell me what number you'd have to add to it to make it up to ten. Erm seven. [Kerry:] Erm... four. Oh seven and two seven and three. [John:] Seven add three good. Erm nine add? [Kerry:] Oh nine... erm one. [John:] Good. One add? [Kerry:] Nothing. [John:] One one add what would [Kerry:] Oh zero. [John:] One add what would make ten [Kerry:] Oh one add nine. [John:] That's it one add nine. We'd write a one and a zero [Kerry:] Yes. [John:] but we'd have to add another if we only had one penny we'd have to add another nine to get ten P. you're doing well on these. Eight add? [Kerry:] Eight add... two. [John:] Good... erm let's think of a hard one six add? [Kerry:] Six add... four. [John:] Good. Four add? [Kerry:] Four add... eight. [John:] Six add four. Six add four makes ten. [Kerry:] So four add six. [John:] Good. Four add six makes ten. Erm you did eight didn't you what was that? Eight add? [Kerry:] Eight add... three er eight add two. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Good eight add two. So two add what would make ten? [Kerry:] Two add... eight. [John:] Good. So have a look at the ones you've done here... right. Five add five [Kerry:] Five. Nine add one. [John:] let's see You know five add five don't you. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Nine add one you know that one that's that's not hard. So if someone says one add? [Kerry:] Nine. [John:] you could work that one out. So you only have to learn half of these you don't have to learn all of them cos you can always switch it round. If you Just what you were doing what you worked out isn't it. So... eight add two eight... nine ten. It's just eight add two. So what would two add eight [Kerry:] Two add eight. [John:] What would that come to? [Kerry:] Ten. [John:] Yeah. Erm seven... eight nine ten. [Kerry:] Nine ten. Three. [John:] Do you think I'll tell you not to count on your fingers?... Well it's better if you can do it in your head it means okay you're a bit cleverer cos you can do it in your head. But if you can't do it in your head... what you going to do? You've got to use your fingers haven't you or get some pennies out and count them. Or write it down and put little dots and count up the dots or something it's a erm a lot of the Who tells you not to count on your fingers? [Kerry:] Me headmaster or sometimes me teacher. [John:] Mm sometimes the teacher but more the headmaster. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Mm.... Don't like getting into... disputes into arguments with schools but in our lessons I don't mind if you count on your fingers. After a while... you get when you first start the first time you ever ride a two wheeler and you have someone holding it or you have some stabilizers on till you know what you're doing. And then when you're okay when you've been riding round a bit you take them off. And you're, Ooh stabilizers. you say to the other kids, Ooh... you don't need stabilizers. But when you first started when you're not quite sure what's happening you can't be expected to be perfect the first time you have a go at something can you. So use your fingers write down bits and more and more you'll be able to start doing it in your head then. Erm I reckon you could probably So if you keep practising these. You can practise them on our fingers. So if I say seven add you could go [whispering] eight, nine, ten [] three. [Kerry:] Three. [John:] Yeah and after a while you won't need to do that. You'll know them then and you won't need to use your fingers but while you're learning I don't see why you know why you can't use them do you. And if they say you can't at school well alright close you eyes and count, pretend there are some fingers there like that. That's good. That's very good numbers that add up to twelve okay. Erm... that's that's really good again you'd only have to learn up to six add six wouldn't you. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Cos five add seven... seven add five would come to twelve. Now [Kerry:] Twenty four. [John:] add up to twenty four okay and right okay [Kerry:] And there's thirty six there. [John:] So you had a lot of practice adding there. Now what I want you to do... I want to just have a look at it now and I want you to... play with it over the holiday on your own. Have you got you your pennies? [Kerry:] Yeah I'll go and get them. [John:] Okay let's have a look at those.... Okay so... [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right Cor! Gracious they're a weight aren't they.... They really are a weight. Okay you've got a fortune in here.... What have we got Can you sort out... ooh just the pennies. [Kerry:] Yeah.... [John:] Okay how many have we got there roughly? [Kerry:] Erm... two three four five six seven six seven eight... nine ten eleven twelve [John:] Okay stop at twelve for a minute.... And keep those that's it keep those pennies separate. Now... let's put some of these back [Kerry:] seven eight nine ten [John:] just sort out another set of twelve. [Kerry:] eleven. [John:] Okay. [Kerry:] Stand these up. [John:] Another set of you just sort out another set of twelve pennies then we'll. [Kerry:] Twelve.... [John:] Okay. [Kerry:] Yeah. Twelve... six seven... eight eight nine... ten... eleven... [John:] Okay that's lovely.... [Kerry:] Six seven eight nine ten eleven [John:] So how many have you got altogether? Could you do it without counting them? You've got two sets of twelve.... How much would that come to. [Kerry:] Two times twelve... [John:] Could you do it by... adding up... on... paper?... [Kerry:] Erm... [John:] It was twelve add twelve wasn't it? [Kerry:] Oh yeah. [John:] Two ti two times twelve... is that the same as two add twelve? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Two sets of twelve so we could say... two times it or we could add twelve to twelve. Which which would be easier do you think? [Kerry:] Erm... me tables' d be much quicker. [John:] If you knew your twelve times or your two times up to twelve that would be quicker but if you don't... [Kerry:] I've done the answer. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Oh brilliant now how did you do it? [Kerry:] Mm used me two times table. [John:] You used your two times table good. So you had you had twelve pennies in one pile and twelve in another and you're doing twelve add twelve now you could have done... counted the whole lot couldn't you? One two three four That's take ages. [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Or you could take a bit of a short cut say well we've already got twelve there thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen and so on. But that's a quicker way. That's really all we're doing we're just sort of counting how many would we have if we have twelve add twelve. Now if I'd said... how about if you had erm... sixty add sixty do you think you could do that? [Kerry:] Sixty er [John:] Have a have a go at that it's sixty add sixty.... Now is it easier if you write you them one under the other do you think? Yeah? Yeah most people find it a lot easier if you write them one underneath the other one. [Kerry:] ... [John:] Right good yeah that's correct. A hundred and twenty. Now that's much easier to do it on paper than if I say well the only way to find is let's get sixty pennies out, you count sixty I'll count another sixty then we'll see how many we've got. So it's just a quick way of doing counting really. A quick way of doing adding. When we do adding up, if we add two numbers together, we'll always get another number. Yeah? You've been doing quite a bit with... things that add up to ten haven't you and you've been doing things like seven add three... comes to ten and... three add seven... can you read my figures? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Three add seven makes ten. It always gives you another number another counting number that you could use for counting your pennies. Now these counting numbers they're okay aren't they you know where you are with those no problem. So adding is okay when we add that's no problem. Now what about when we take away?... It goes a bit weird so we'll leave that for a while let's have a look at erm... what happens when we're doing times.... What happens when we're doing times now you did two sets of twelve didn't you? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] And you did that with your two times table so because times means the same as... sets of... or lots of.... It doesn't make any difference whether you say two times twelve, [Kerry:] [sneeze] [John:] two lots of twelve, two sets of twelve, two piles of twelve does it it's all the same. So times... multiplication... is the fancy word for it but times is good enough.... That'll always give you another counting number wouldn't it... because it's the same as adding really.... Say there we are you can add twelve add twelve or you can do two times [Kerry:] Twelve. [John:] two times twelve. Okay sixty add sixty or you could do [Kerry:] Sixty you could do six times six two sixes. [John:] You could do... two times sixty. That's it two times sixty. If if you had erm... eight eight add eight... eight add eight add eight.... [Kerry:] Eight. [John:] How can you do it? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] Using your tables.... [Kerry:] Three times eight. [John:] Three times eight or eight times times three doesn't matter which way you do it, it'd come to the same thing. Three times eight's better that's the the right way to do it. So really when you're doing times when you're doing your tables you're just doing adding aren't you. Adding lots of different... l lots of things that are the same. So times is okay. Three times four or four times three they just give us counting numbers again. Nice numbers that are easy to work with we can count out the pennies, count on our fingers, let you. Okay you can sort those out but when we get to take aways it goes a little bit odd doesn't it. So let's see, you've got... just check and see if you've got ten in that pile.... [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Okay so if I do ten take away seven what do you think that will come to? [Kerry:] Ten take away seven is... three. [John:] Good now how did you get it? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] How did you work it out.... Cos you did that in your head you didn't use your fingers or anything how did you do it? [Kerry:] Er... I u used like I did with the adds and [John:] Alright. [Kerry:] and then and then I s and then in me head I did erm seven... take away ten and then I worked it out and it turned out to be three. I had I had eight nine ten left in me head to make three. [John:] Mm good so if you know what adds up to make ten [Kerry:] Ten. [John:] if you know seven add three make ten then you can work it out just in your head. Ten take away seven makes three. Okay so we can do things like that and we get counting numbers and we're quite happy with those. So it works sometimes take away but sometimes you get things like... ooh let's see... er I'm making a mess of this you can write it out nicely. Seven [Kerry:] Take away [John:] take away ten. [Kerry:] ten. [John:] So I'll say there we are you've got seven pennies there now take ten away. [Kerry:] You can't. [LAUGHTER] [John:] You can't... you can't and that's what people thought for thousands of years lots of years. They thought... you can't do it. But we we have these have you come across negative numbers?... Directed numbers?... On the number line? [Kerry:] Erm yeah. [John:] Yeah what did you think of them? A bit confusing. They can be very confusing if you don't know what it's about. Let's say I owed you erm... ten P. And I said, Oh well there we are... take it If I gave you a pound [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] and said take that ten P out of that how much change would you give me? [Kerry:] Erm ten pence out of a pound ninety pence. [John:] Good you're very quick on money. Now if I said you know that ten P I owe you well there you are take it out of that seven pence.... And keep the change. [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] How much more would you want? [Kerry:] Erm three pence. [John:] Three pence. So we call it minus three. We call it minus three I still owe you [Kerry:] Three pence. [John:] still owe you three. Okay if you try to take you've still got three to come [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] that means. Erm... we'll look at that then we'll look at the nu we'll have a look at the number line and we'll look at temperatures. Have you done do you remember looking at those. Do you ever watch the weather forecast and it says especially last or a few months ago say it'll be minus three tonight? [Kerry:] Er... no. [John:] No well it's... nought zero that's the temperature where water freezes. And if it's about four it's up here the normal four. So it'd go went down one it'd go to three, went down again it'd go to two. Went down another one what would it go to? [Kerry:] One. [John:] And then if it went down another one? [Kerry:] Zero. [John:] And if it goes down another one? [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] Erm [John:] It's gone below zero. You just say it's gone to minus one. [Kerry:] Minus one. [John:] And then if it went down another one? [Kerry:] Minus two. [John:] And another one? [Kerry:] Minus three. [John:] Aha you've got it. Okay that's all that's all these minus numbers are about. Negative numbers, directed numbers all sorts of funny names for them and people get very confused about them but we'll sort those out we'll have a look at the number line which is a good way of doing it. So take aways sometimes they work and sometimes they give you a nice counting number and sometimes they give you this thing. Ooh what's this. Really it means we can't do it so we'll we make it up we've made up these funny numbers so that it'll always work. Cos we don't we don't like to say in maths we don't like to say we can't do it. And the same happens with sharing sometimes doesn't it erm... how many have you got there let's see? [Kerry:] Seven.... [John:] Right there's twelve I'd like you to share that out between three people please. [Kerry:] Three people. [John:] Twelve shared out between Three people. [Kerry:] ... [John:] Okay we'll leave these out like that so we can see how many we're getting. That's it that's very good... okay.... and how many would they get each? [Kerry:] Four pence each. [John:] They'd get four each. Twelve twelve anything it could be twelve [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] twelve... cups of tea. Right twelve shared out between they'll get four each. Now how about this one then? Okay... there's three let's pretend they're pizzas say three pizzas share that out between twelve people. [Kerry:] Er... twelve people [John:] Mm.... Most people say say you can't do it you can't do that can you go on. Hey with twelve people and only three pi [Kerry:] You'd have to cut it into twelfths. [John:] Yes go on. [Kerry:] You cut it into twelfths and then... you erm... [John:] Good so if we cut the first into twelfth what how many pieces would they get out of that's be twelve pieces altogether okay.... And they'd get one of those each wouldn't they. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] And then what would we do with so that's the first pizza that's dealt with and they got a piece like that out of the first one. What would they do out of the second pizza? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] What would we do with that? [Kerry:] Cut it into another twelve. [John:] Cut it into twelfths again. Give them another piece. There they are with another twelfth for you. [Kerry:] Another twelfth. [John:] And the same for the last one brilliant. So they'd finish up with three pieces like that. Three twelfths and we know what three twelfths looks like. Three twelfths' d be one two three [Kerry:] Two three [John:] would be? [Kerry:] Er a fourth. [John:] A fourth a quarter.... So they're going to finish u they should finish up with a quarter so again this sharing sometimes it works okay and we just get a normal counting number. Say well that's okay. And sometimes we go, ooh no we've got fractions.... That doesn't matter. That's interesting isn't it. Twelve shared out between three you get four. Three shared out between twelve you get a fourth. [Kerry:] Three between twelve you get a quarter. [John:] Or a quarter as you say. How about this one how about twelve shared out between four how many would they get each? [Kerry:] Twelve shared out... er... [John:] Try those share those twelve out between four people. [Kerry:] Mm one... two three... You get three pence each. [John:] You get three pence each. Cos when we shared it out between three it was like if you just stand up and have a look along there. Okay? [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] There you are well you stand there that's a person standing there. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] And the dog can stand there and then that's there's the three people and they get four each. But if you look at it from this way four people standing there they'll get three each. So twelve shared out between four... they get three. [Kerry:] Three. [John:] Right how about four shared out between twelve people? How would you do that? [Kerry:] Four shared out between... [John:] What will that come to? That's that's not going to be as easy as the last one. How would you do it then? [Kerry:] Er... Use them as pizzas maybe? [John:] Yeah brilliant and what would you do with the first one? [Kerry:] Erm cut it into twelve. [John:] Cut it into twelve so they get one twelfth from the first one.... Carry on you tell me what [Kerry:] Another twelve another twelve from the [John:] Yeah. [Kerry:] second one. And another twelfth for the third one and another twelfth from the fourth. [John:] So how many twelfths would they get altogether? [Kerry:] Erm four erm [John:] Four they'd get four twelfths. Well that was three wasn't it? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] And another one... that's four... and that would make... how many how many twelfths in that? [Kerry:] Erm... three three.... [John:] One two three [Kerry:] Two three four. [John:] Four. [Kerry:] Four. [John:] Four twelfths.... So four well that's interesting isn't it? Look four shared out between twelve [Kerry:] Between twelve. [John:] You get four twelfths. [Kerry:] Four twelfths. [John:] That's that's just another way of writing it. That's just the same thing it's not really answer you just say four shared out between twelve. And the same here three shared out between twelve it came to three over twelve didn't it? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] And that was the way you did it first. Your idea cut it into twelfths. Brilliant... and that came to the same as one quarter. And four twelfths came to the same as? One third. [Kerry:] One third. [John:] So twelve shared out between three no problem there we get four. Three shared out between twelves it comes to? [Kerry:] Between twelve comes to a quarter. [John:] One fourth a quarter. That was four that's one fourth. Mm. Four shared out between twelve [Kerry:] Between twelve. [John:] Sorry twelve shared between four? [Kerry:] Between four is three. [John:] But? [Kerry:] Twelve divided by [John:] Four. [Kerry:] Four divided by twelve [John:] That's it four shared out between twelve people [Kerry:] Twelve comes to one third. [John:] One over three. That was four and that's one over four. This was three and that's one over three.... Mm. How about this one? What would six shared out between two people give you?... [Kerry:] Shared out... erm [John:] How many twos make six?... [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] Two two whats would make six? [Kerry:] Three. [John:] Two threes are six so what we'll do is we'll say let's say how would you make six? You'd make it with two two lots of three. [Kerry:] Three. [John:] like that two lots of three. So six shared out between two we've shared it between two people they'd get three each. So the sharing's a bit like doing the times only the other way round isn't it like doing it backwards. That's the answer now what was the question. Yeah so sh six shared out between two is? [Kerry:] Three. [John:] Three. Have a guess at two shared out between six? Just have a guess at it. [Kerry:] Two shared out [John:] From what was happening here. We did twelve shared out between four was three. Four shared out between twelve was one over three. Have a guess. [Kerry:] Two. [John:] Er two shared out between six people. Here we are there's your two pi two pizzas now share that out between the six of us. [Kerry:] Cut it into twelfths [John:] Yeah we could use twelfths we could use we definitely use no no that'd be good. Right that'll work very well. Erm let's say... you and erm... and who's the other girl? [Kerry:] Natalie and [John:] And [Kerry:] Gemma [John:] And Natalie. [Kerry:] and Joanne. [John:] Joanne Okay well let's say you and Joanne and Jemma. You could share that one.... And I'll share the other pizza with your mum and is that your auntie so [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] with your mum and your auntie. Okay so how many will you get when you share that with... Gemma and Natalie and you? [Kerry:] Mm [John:] How many people are there?... [Kerry:] Three [John:] Three [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] so you're gonna get one shared out between three which is?... [Kerry:] Three three is [John:] You just you just write it like that one over three. A third a third. So it comes to a third. Let's see if we can do it a different way. Now you suggested you had a very good idea you said we could cut it up into twelfths. Okay... cut the first one up into twelve twelfths. Okay now there are six of us... how many twelfths will we get there are twelve of them. Twelve twelfths out of that out of that first pizza. [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] We didn't really need to cut it up into so many small pieces i would work but we'd get two of these each cos we've got twelve little pieces now and there are only six of us to share it out so we'd say, Oh well have er we'll we'll have two pieces each two twelfths. [Kerry:] that'd be er a sixth. [John:] Good. That'd be a sixth. Okay so we could do that in the first place we could say one pizza there well we've got two pizzas but we'll let's just concentrate on one, share it between six people. [Kerry:] We'll we get sixths. [John:] We'll all get one sixth that's dealt with one pizza what about the next pizza? [Kerry:] Erm cut it up again. [John:] Exactly same with that cut it into sixths. So we get another sixth. So how many sixths would we have altogether? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] As there are two pizzas. [Kerry:] Two. [John:] Two sixths oh well there's one sixth for you let's find the other one. That's how much that would be your share if we shared six pizzas between two of us and it's going to be the same as I said when i said well you share with your mum and Natalie.... Because two sixths is the same as? [Kerry:] Erm fo a quarter third. [John:] A third. That one's the quarter it's the one with the corner on. Okay it's a half of a half. It takes two of those to make a half. And there's the third same as two sixths. So it doesn't matter whether we look at it as whether you'd get a third or whether you say you'd get two sixths well it doesn't matter cos it's the same size it's just it's cut into two pieces or the way you wanted to do it which was a good way with the first pizza. Cut it into twelfths. [Kerry:] Into twelfths. [John:] And how many would you get you'd get two twelfths. [Kerry:] Two twelfths. [John:] Right... you'd get two twelfths out of the second pizza as well there's another two twelfths so you'd have four twelfths all together. So it doesn't matter which way you do it whether you get four twelfths, two sixths, or one third, they're all the same they all comes to the same thing. So four twelfths, two sixths, one s one third. If you share two between three of you... which is what we've just done... right? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Let's just write down here I think what we've got hey? What did we do? We shared out... share out two... between six. Two shared out between six... is... So that's one of the answers that we got. Two sixths. You did it by twelfths and we got... four twelfths and the other answer we got was one third. So if we sort of put in here one one third what does it mean? Well it means just one shared out between three of you doesn't it? What does four twelfths mean? [Kerry:] Means shared out between... four of us. [John:] The the people always go under the table okay. [Kerry:] shared it between twelve of us. [John:] That's right and how many did we share out? It goes on top of the table. [Kerry:] A quarter four. [John:] Four when they're on top of the table it's just a number four okay. So that was four shared out between? [Kerry:] Twelve. [John:] Twelve of us. So it doesn't these are all the same all comes to the same amount doesn't it. You get the same piece of pizza whether it's two shared out between six, four shared out between twelve or one shared out between three... or... twenty four shared out between a lot of people. [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] We could maybe work it out. So we've had a look at some of the numbers now haven't we and some of the things you can do with them. Adding up that's no problem you never get any surprises do we we all get another we always get sometimes it's hard but we always finish up with another counting number. Times sets of and lots of, that's the sam it's like counting in threes or counting in let's add another three, add another three add another three. Okay or add another six. So it's a bit like counting and we keep getting the same counting numbers that we're happy with. Take away what happened there? Well sometimes it works. When doesn't it work? When do we get these funny numbers? [Kerry:] When... erm you have a lower number. [John:] Very good very mathematical. Yes yes yeah when the first number is smaller than the second one. When you try and take away more than you've got. If I say there you are there's there's two P take five P out of that. Can't do that. It's when you you tend to say first thing you say is can't do that then you think, Oh well we get the we have to do it just playing silly game we get these funny numbers. It's just a game so that we can so that they can't say there caught you out. You have to say you can't do that I'll make up a new game to play. So they make up this game with negative numbers but it works very well it's very useful. Erm we need things like that for... windows and building bridges and things like that. Sharing sometimes no problem. When when do we get the problems with the sharing when does it go into fractions? [Kerry:] Erm... when you have a lower number. [John:] Right very good yes. When the number that we're sharing out when that's less than the number of people. And there's another there's a really awkward one. Do you want to go for it yes let's try it. [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] A really awkward one you can get in sharing.... Let's say if we had... erm... six shared out between four okay?... One two three four five [Kerry:] Six. [John:] six. Okay... share it out between four mm. How many are we going to get? Well let's do it. Right give them one each to start with and then you've got two left over. [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Mm put them in your pocket. What are we going to do?... It's awkward isn't it. [Kerry:] Yeah.... [John:] Well let's say there was Joanne and Natalie sitting there and you and me say.... That's one for Joanne, one for Natalie, one for Kerry... Now what would you do with the two that you've got left over? [Kerry:] Er [John:] What could you do?... If we were sitting together here and Joanne and N Natalie were sitting over there and we've got these two pennies? [Kerry:] We could maybe... if we have Joanne, Gemma, Natalie, me, you [John:] Mhm. No we've just got the four of us. Just got the four of us. [Kerry:] Erm... [John:] How about... forgot about one of the pennies for a minute this one if we shared that out between two of us. How if you get one each and then you get a half share in that. [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] So how much would you get out of this bit? What fraction would you get out of this if it was shared between two of us? [Kerry:] A twelfth. [John:] Just just between the two of us. [Kerry:] Erm a sixth. [John:] So it's it's one one pizza. Your mum brings the pizzas in she brings six pizzas in right great big ones. And she said Oh I thought there was supposed to be six of you here today, some didn't turn up. Okay so we've got six pizzas only four of us. So she goes round right there's a whole for you, and one for, one for you, one for you and she says, And you won't want any more will you? And everyone says, Ooh yes yes lovely pizza this yes. Oh so she's got to share it out evenly. So she could say How could she do it how would you do it? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] If you were the mum and you brought these pizzas in and there was four people sitting there... when you've got six pizzas and they all want the same size. Now we've done one each and we've got two now to share out between [Kerry:] erm [John:] these four people. [Kerry:] Cut it into [John:] Cut it into what size pieces would we cut it into? [Kerry:] A twelfth. [John:] Yeah we could cut it into twelfths but there are only two people so they're gonna finish up with lots of little bits aren't they if we cut it [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] into twelfths. What do you [Kerry:] Could cut it into er... [John:] What could we cut it into?... [Kerry:] Oh half. [John:] Right good so we could just cut it into a half. We could say well there's our... it's a half for you and a half for you... and we cut the other one and they get a half each. If we if they weren't as quick as you are like that working that out what you could try is say well... I've given them one each there's the four people one two three four right you've all got a whole one so you can start eating that while I sort out how I'm gonna share this out. Now... this is the fifth pizza now how am I gonna share it out. Oh well there are four of them there so why not give them all... and I'll cut this pizza into [Kerry:] Erm... quarters [John:] Into quarters exactly cut it into four. So there they are while you're eating that another quarter each. And what shall we do with the last pizza so that [Kerry:] Erm cut it into half again and [John:] Cut it into? [Kerry:] erm quarters. [John:] Quarters again yeah and give them another quarter out of this so they get... they've got a whole one each and then we've got two left over. Now out of that two we'll say well share it out between the four of you... take a quarter each. Out of this one... take a quarter each so how many quarters would they get? [Kerry:] Erm two quarters. [John:] Two two quarters. There's two pizzas shared out between four so they're going to get? Two quarters. I think you're doing very well on this by the we're getting through an awful lot here it's usually even with very much older children they take a lot longer to get this.... So sharing out two six shared out between four what you'd normally write if you can't do fractions you'd say once remainder two wouldn't you. [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] You'd say once and two left over. You say well what are we going to do with those two left over? Well hide them. [LAUGHTER] But now we want them all shared out so... instead of saying one remainder two we writ it like this now. Six divided by four is one and... two left over we won't get two whole pizzas each we'll get [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] two... quarters two quarters. And what does two quarters come to? [Kerry:] A whole? [John:] one quarter [Kerry:] A half. [John:] is a half okay. Which is what you said earlier when you were working them out you said, Oh so they get one and a half each. one and a half. Now those I think and quite a lot of other people do are probably the most awkward ones. They're not hard once you understand what you're doing how you get it because you're sharing out but they're probably the most awkward when you've got mixed whole numbers counting numbers and fractions all in together. Erm then they get a bit awkward. So what I'd like you to do... when you get some... get a cardboard cutout. [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] okay when you get those cut out you can just play with them just get used to the sizes and the shapes and erm... make sure that you ask someone. [tape ends] [Kerry:] the erm... [John:] Right so if someone holds up this piece and you hold up this piece to your mum and you say what sort of fraction is this? She says I don't know. You'll have to wait and ask John when he comes. Well let's work it out. How how could you work out? [Kerry:] Erm... [John:] Now this is this is the answer really what was the question. this is what we finished up with? Now what were we doing to finish up with a piece like that? We had a pizza and we were going to share it out between how many people? [Kerry:] Erm... three. [John:] Three so good you should find that three pieces just like that... the same size as that... would all... just fit together to make a whole. Right so that must be? [Kerry:] A quarter oh a third. [John:] A third. [LAUGHTER] [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Nearly you were going right all the way along there. right so that must be a third okay and... someone holds this up and says, What's that? [Kerry:] A sixth. [John:] Good. And just check it to make sure. Go all the way round and make sure you need six like that.... How did we get this piece. What were we doing to get that? [Kerry:] Erm got the corner [John:] Mhm. [Kerry:] It's a fourth a quarter. [John:] That's it it's a quarter. We were sharing it out between four so we got we we always say a quarter I think I think it's a good idea the way the Americans say a fourth cos you can it ties it up with the four shared out between four people. And you could do the same for the [Kerry:] A twelfth.... [John:] Take you all day going all round with a twelfth wouldn't it. There's a slightly quicker way. You're happy with the sixth aren't you. There's a sixth. That was shared out between six people. If there were twice as many people [Kerry:] You'd get [John:] Just go on. [Kerry:] two out of the s [John:] You's have to get two pieces out of every sixth you'd have to cut that down the middle. [Kerry:] So you'd just You'd just put the sixth if you know that there's two twelfth you just... like that and then the twelve and then you could count round like that [John:] Right you could you can count round any way you like and the quickest way the easiest way that you're sure works that's the best for you. [Kerry:] Is to work out how many sixths how many twelfths are in sixth [John:] Right. [Kerry:] and come round. [John:] Right now I want you to do a bit of adding up okay. Erm... what would a third add a sixth make? [Kerry:] A third add a sixth... put three add six down and then maybe [John:] One one third just write down one third add one sixth. [Kerry:] One third add one sixth. [John:] Now I'll tell you the tell you the trick of what goes on here. You can't when you've got the numbers just like this it doesn't seem to work out so we've got to go back to find out what it means. Erm well... you could change them both into [Kerry:] Sixths. [John:] Into sixths very good. How many sixths there? [Kerry:] Two. [John:] And how many here? [Kerry:] One. [John:] So right so that's brilliant so underneath that third... how many sixths is it [Kerry:] Two. [John:] Two. So you could just write two sixths instead of that and it's the same. It doesn't matter whether it's one pizza shared out between three of us or as we tried earlier two shared out between six of us. You still finish up with the same amount. One third, two sixths, four twelfths all the same thing. Add one sixth okay. So just copy that one down underneath. Er two sixths add one sixth is going to come to how many sixths would you have? [Kerry:] Three. [John:] Three sixths okay so. You can just put your add in there as well. That's it. Equals three sixths. And three sixths makes? [Kerry:] A half. [John:] Okay. You could put there equals a half. Three shared out between six... we'd get a half. We could put ourselves in three lots of two and your mum came in with the three pizzas we'd get one between us so we get a half. Those two get one between none none for people peeping through the door though. Okay. I think we're getting very very well.... What about a a very awkward take away then if you're doing so well how about this there we are. A third take away a quarter. [Kerry:] Quarter. Er [John:] Let's see what it does come to? What do you think it comes to? [Kerry:] Erm... comes to a twelfth. [John:] Yep very good... it comes to a twelfth. Now we've got to make that's what really happens that's real. This is just playing games with the numbers to see if we can get the right answer. So how are we going to get the right answer? Well any suggestion if you'd like to write it down one third take away a quarter.... Mm any ideas? [Kerry:] Erm... see how many quarters we've got there. [John:] Mm have any quarters I mean you'd get one and a bit. Anything else we could try to see what're in a third? [Kerry:] How many twelfths. [John:] That sounds like a brilliant idea. Okay and how many twelfths? [Kerry:] Er... [John:] Instead of finding out how many twelfths in a third we could find out how many twelfths in two sixths couldn't we that'd be a bit easier. [Kerry:] Four. [John:] Four okay so underneath the one third you can write four twelfths. [Kerry:] Just pick up my top [John:] Okay.... Right mind you don't stand on it. Where's it gone? Where's it one. Patterned carpets are hard aren't they... to find things in.... Oh well I won't move in case I tread on. Oh you've got it. [Kerry:] [LAUGHTER] It was by the door. [John:] Right and how many twelfths in the quarter? [Kerry:] Erm one two three.... [John:] So it's four twelfths [Kerry:] A third and third three twelfths and a fourth. [John:] That's it so it's four twelfths take away three twelfths. [Kerry:] Three twelfths equals [John:] How many twelfths would you have left if you started off with four twelfths then you took away three twelfths? [Kerry:] Er one. [John:] One twelfth left. And that's what we got with this. So that idea of yours change them all into twelfths... it's a brilliant one. That's that's the way we do fractions that's the way you do adding up fractions or taking away fractions you change them to the same. Okay.... Changed... if that's one third it's four twelfths one, two, three, four. [Kerry:] Three, four. [John:] How about this one? One th you try this one on your own. One third take away one twelfth. [Kerry:] One... third... one third take away [John:] Take away one twelfth. [Kerry:] one twelfth.... Er... so you take away twelve? [John:] Well what are you going to do with that one third what are you going to change that into? [Kerry:] Erm twelfths so that'd be... four twelve twelfths. [John:] Four twelfths good. [Kerry:] That's fours twelfths and [John:] Hang on... hang on you've just written a quarter you said four twelfths. [Kerry:] Oh. [John:] Okay four twelfths take away [Kerry:] Take away one twelfth. [John:] Take away one twelfth okay just write that down that you've got to take away the one twelfth. [Kerry:] One twelfth erm One twelfth [John:] Right so four twelfths and then you take away one twelfth. There's the four twelfths take away one twelfth. How many twelfths do we have left? We had four took away one twelfth [Kerry:] three. [John:] Three twelfths left. Equals three twelfths. And three twelfths is the same as?... [Kerry:] A quarter. [John:] A quarter.... So we can say that many that equals a quarter.... Right now have you done cancelling fractions? [Kerry:] No. [John:] No. Cancelling fractions is when somebody ha gives you somebody says erm you say, How much pizza did you get? three twelfths. three twelfths make it a bit more simple oh well it's just the same as three three twelfths is [Kerry:] Same as a quarter. [John:] A quarter. Okay if they said they got four twelfths. [Kerry:] same as a third. [John:] Same as a third exactly. If they said they got six twelfths? [Kerry:] same as a half. [John:] Very good okay try this one. A hard one nine twelfths. [Kerry:] Twelfths same as a whole. [John:] Twelve twelfths would make a whole wouldn't it. Now... nine twelfths [Kerry:] Twelfths. [John:] What would six twelfths be? [Kerry:] Six er erm qua a half and a sixth. [John:] A half A half good and then you'd have but we started off with nine twelfths so we'd have three other twelfths and three twelfths is the same as? [Kerry:] A quarter. [John:] Okay so nine twelfths would be enough to make make a half out of the six twelfths. [Kerry:] two sixths. [John:] Make a half... we'd make a half out of the six twelfths and then we'd have three left over make a quarter so it'd be a half add a quarter that's what nine twelfths would come to. There's the half it'd be the same as a half add a quarter. What does a half add a quarter come to? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] Well we usually change them into the same thing don't we if we're going to add them. So if we change them all into quarters how many quarters would there be in a half? [Kerry:] Two. [John:] Two. Two quarters add one quarter how many quarters altogether? [Kerry:] So three. [John:] Three quarters three quarters. Okay I think you're doing very very well on the fractions actually how do you feel? Do you think... you know what they're about don't you. [Kerry:] Yes. [John:] You're getting the hang of it. Now you need quite a bit of practice. You're understanding them now very well erm if you don't practise them a bit well this is what happens. You next time you come to do it you'll be doing you'll remember nearly as much as we're doing today but perhaps some odd little bits you'll think, ooh now how did we do that I can't quite work out. Cos we've done a lot haven't we. We've done a lot today. So some odd bits you might think, I'm not quite sure how you work that out. Not quite sure how you do that. So you might have to try and a try and find out again. Play with the fractions. [Kerry:] Last night mister mister does those fractions [John:] Okay now some people you mention fractions and they scream and run and, Ah no no hate fractions. and it's cos they don't understand them but you're understanding them I think very well now so you're going to like them. You get someone with a sharp knife [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] to cut that out. [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] And then you can have your own fractions and you can just play with them and erm I'll give you some sums to do with your own fractions. Now we we'll have done some of them there and I don't want you to look there okay I want you to just try it [Kerry:] I've got another book in me in me room. Quite a big book that I could use for doing me homework. [John:] With fractions okay if you like to get that and I'll...... Right [speaker001:] Do you take sugar in our coffee? [John:] Er no sugar no milk. [speaker001:] No sugar no milk [John:] okay just the coffee that's lovely she's just gone to get a book for some homework. She's just popped up to get a book for some homework.... Aha right okay that's lovely. Now you haven't got any schoolbooks with you have you [Kerry:] No. [John:] the work that you're doing at school. No because when you when you are back at school erm... [Kerry:] We bought a sheet home fractions on. [John:] Did you could you could you find it fairly quickly do you think? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] Okay great. I'll write some of these out for you.... [Kerry:] Er... there [John:] Aha let's have a look.... Mhm. Right so you don't know... you're not too sure about centimetres and millimetres hey? [Kerry:] No. [John:] We'll look at that some time.... Do you know how to multiply by ten normally? [Kerry:] Yeah... but I got a bit stuck on that one [John:] Mm it's a decimal thirty six point nine. How about this one? Fifty nine divided by ten. How many would you have left over? Oh lovely thanks very much. [speaker001:] Okay. [Kerry:] Erm [John:] How much how much would you have left over here?... [Kerry:] Ten er [John:] Are you any good with money? I think you are. Sixty pence... sixty pence divided by ten... how many tens? [Kerry:] It's divided by... ten... [John:] How many ten Ps could you get out of sixty pence? [Kerry:] Six. [John:] That was quick it's the same yeah. Now if you only had fifty nine pence [Kerry:] Fifty nine pence. [John:] How many ten Ps could you get out of it? [Kerry:] Er five and then nine [John:] And nine left over. Okay so that one's five remainder nine isn't it you can change that one later. Okay. What decimal fraction of the circle is shaded? [Kerry:] Shaded. Erm one two three four five six erm four... [John:] From six whats how many what are these pieces. How many pieces to go all the way round. One two three four five six seven [Kerry:] Three four five six seven eight nine ten [John:] Right so they're tenths. So this was so they had a pizza sort of shared it out between ten people.... Okay so it's not just six that's that's shaded it's six tenths six out of ten okay. So that one'll be six six over ten. And that's a decimal fraction okay. And we'll have to change that to... we'll write it as six over ten then we'll write it as point six. We'll have a look at decimals because you need to... need to know what you're doing with decimals but decimals are fractions and until you I mean I think you're very happy with fractions now you're probably ready to go on to decimals. Erm we are I think do you. We'll sort them out cos they're just they're easy really. They're erm... they're just fractions where the bottom is always tens or hundreds or something like that so they're easier than some of the other fractions. So we'll have a look at those. Now which of these fractions, three tenths, point five, a quarter, point two. Well you can't... which is the largest?... [Kerry:] Erm... [John:] I think you need to know that nought point five... is five tenth five out of ten which is a half. So that's quite a big one so we don't don't bother about any of these the ones that have got tenths or decimals in we'll have a look at that.... The difference between okay. Now are you supposed to be doing all of these? [Kerry:] No this sheet's from ages ago I found it in me desk when I was tidying it and er I asked me teacher if it [John:] Mhm. [Kerry:] was any good and she went, If you want to take it home and [John:] Mm okay cos I see I'd like to know whether you're supposed to be doing decimals and things at the moment. It doesn't matter if we do it a little bit before you do it at school because when you do it you'll understand then and you can get a lot from it you can ask [Kerry:] I think we're doing decimals in schools... at the moment. [John:] You are okay. Well we'll have a look at that then. Erm now this is this this is very tricky these are... erm... mm aren't they? Hey some of these John's got forty pence and Paul's got two fifths of it. Hey and a cyclists speed... She bought a book for one seventy five... she gets seven fives [Kerry:] to the rest of the rest of the [John:] How would she do that then? How much would seven five come to? Seven five Ps. [Kerry:] Seven... five Ps... [John:] Let's have a look at number five... If she did something like this how much has she got to start to give. One seventy five [Kerry:] One seventy five. [John:] okay. Now she's going to give five Ps.... Seven five Ps. You've got a lot of really useful money here haven't you so you can you can work these out. Two three four five six... seven [Kerry:] Four five six... seven. [John:] Right seven five Ps how much will that come to? [Kerry:] Erm ten twenty thirty five. [John:] Thirty five okay.... Thirty five so we better take thirty five off cos she's already got thirty five hasn't she? [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] And how much would she have left if you took thirty five pence away away from one pound seventy five. How much would she have? [Kerry:] Er... [John:] You can just do it like a normal take away. [Kerry:] It's thirty five... [John:] From [Kerry:] take away... [John:] Forget about the pound thi seventy five take away the thirty five [Kerry:] Seventy five take away thirty five. [John:] So... she'd have one pound forty left so that's in five Ps.... In five Ps... thirty five. So you got one forty left how many tens would she need... to make one forty? [Kerry:] One forty erm [John:] One pound forty.... [Kerry:] Fourteen. [John:] Good yeah fourteen great. Very good okay that's good. So that's how to do that one we could have a look at that. Mm... a week later than Christmas Day... Do you know about angles making right angles? [Kerry:] Mm [John:] No.... You maybe you've done it but... have forgotten. That's a right angle when it's like a like the corner of a square. A right angle ninety degrees. And have you done area and perimeter? How long is it all the way round something? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] No possibly not doesn't matter. [Kerry:] I'm not too sure. [John:] Now we'll we'll we'll concentrate on some see with maths you have to do things in certain Are we supposed to be doing maths today are we supposed to be doing English?... [Kerry:] I'm not too sure.... [John:] Well we'll conc best to concentrate on the just on the fractions. Erm [Kerry:] But you said you were gonna bring me some erm these special tables. [John:] Did I... ooh well I haven't I'm sorry to say. Erm... right... er... now definitely by the time I see you next time... if not before... erm I'll get them okay. If I've got to print them off from my computer and the computer's... er not exactly in bits but it's just taken apart a bit at the moment so I need to put it back together again and print them off. So I'll do that very soon.... Now let's sort you out some fractions.... So... before adding... or taking away... fractions okay. Before adding or taking away we get the number on the bottom to be the same right.... And how do we do that? It's easy enough saying it isn't it.... Okay erm I'm just trying to think what I'm doing later.... I'll get those fractions those multiplication tables printed out and get you a copy in the next few days okay.... The bottom's the same on both fractions. How d how do we make sure that the number on the bottom is the same?... [Kerry:] Erm [John:] How did we do it when we doing some of these back here?... For example when we had erm... When you were doing these tricky things. Like a third take away a quarter how did you do it?... [Kerry:] Three... You put the fractions [John:] Okay so you change the fractions you change the one third and you change the one quarter into into what? [Kerry:] Twelfths. [John:] Into twelfths in this case you change them into twelfths to see how many twelfths it would be. And erm with these... you changed them both into sixths didn't you could have changed them both into twelfths and it would have work but then we'll get an answer that needs... we would have got... sixth twelfths... well it still comes to a half. But it's just a bit more awkward to work out what six twelfths is maybe. So I'll give you some here to do. Some of them will be the same ones that we've already done so don't look at the don't look at these... just try them on your own try and remember how you did them. And if you get stuck go back and have a look how you did them here. So... I'm going to do... erm... a half add a third... okay... and... a third add a quarter... and... a half take away a third... okay and I'll give you another one to do... How about this one. I'll leave you to sort out you're own own way of doing this.... Two thirds add a quarter. Okay? I haven't told you how to d I've told you how to change one third we've looked at that haven't we and we and we've worked out sort of how many twelfths would be in it and things like that. I'll leave you to work out on your own. Don't worry if you can't do it if you can't any of these any of these exercises that I give you by the way it's not like homework it's just for you to play with them to get the do them at your own pace. So that you feel happy with it so that you, Oh yeah now I understand what he's talking about. Now I can do it myself. That's the idea cos... when it's the exam I can't come in and do it for you or show you how to do it. You'll be doing it on your own so that's what I want you to do to get so you can do it on your own. Try those erm... and with the with the coins... what I'd like you to do now is not find out all the things that add up to twelve. Find out what numbers times what other numbers would make twelve. So can you g tell me any numbers that you could any two numbers you could multiply together to make twelve. [Kerry:] Er... erm... eleven and one. [John:] Those are adding. [Kerry:] Oh. [John:] Okay good yeah they are that's good that would add together to make twelve but how about... some number times another number.... [Kerry:] One times... twelve. [John:] Good okay so twelve we could have one times twelve... right.... [Kerry:] Five times two. [John:] well let's see. Let's get twelve coins this is the easy way to do it I think. One two three... one two three four five six seven eight... nine ten... how many more do we need?... [Kerry:] Er. [John:] I want twelve I've got ten there. How many more do I need [Kerry:] three [John:] Another... I've got ten [Kerry:] Two. [John:] eleven [Kerry:] Twelve. [John:] twelve okay so it needs another two. So there we are we've got one lot of twelve... or we might be able to have two lots of what see what you can make with it for two lots. [Kerry:] Two lots of mm.... Two lots of... five. Six. [John:] Okay so we could make one lot of twelve... we could make two lots of six. See if you could make three lots of something.... [Kerry:] Three lots of four. [John:] Aha. Three lot of four. Okay... and could you make four lots of something.... You've already you're doing very good. [Kerry:] Four lots of three. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Four lots of three I haven't got time to write that down that was very quick. Good four lots of three and could you make five lots of anything? [Kerry:] Erm [John:] No. [Kerry:] No. [John:] You could make five lots of two but you'd two left over so it wouldn't go evenly okay. So you can't do five lots okay that was you that was trying five that didn't work so try six what will happen there. [Kerry:] Er... [John:] So you're going you got... okay now we've got six lots of [Kerry:] Twos. [John:] Two okay six lots of two.... Six times two. And then you could have twelve lots of... [Kerry:] One. [John:] Twelve lots of one.... Right... so I think that you've done twelve right just now showed me how to do it. I want you to do the same for twenty four... and you won't get it all on one line there'll be a lot of them and then try it for thirty six... and when you're really happy with twenty four... when you're happy with twelve and you can write all those out quite happily without looking at this... try twenty four see if you know see if threes' ll go fives' ll go and sevens and everything else. And then try it with thirty six. And then I don't particularly want you to start yet but if you do get time or if you're just interested and you don't want to stop and you want to keep going... try it with sixty.... Sixty pennies put them out. Make sure you don't put them straight on the table though. Newspaper's fine cos you can slide them about or a towel like this. Now... of what we've been doing today with fractions was there any of it that you're not quite sure of and you think, But could you just tell me about that bit again. [Kerry:] Er... [John:] How do you feel about it you feel fairly happy with it? [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] We've done a lot today you know we've done a lot of things about fractions and a lot of things about adding, subtracting,... times, sharing quite a lot. So if you don't remember all of it. Don't worry and always ask me if there's something that we did last time and I start ta [Kerry:] [sneeze] [John:] I start talking about it as though you know [Kerry:] [sneeze] [John:] and you're if you think, Ooh I'm I'm not quite sure what he means by that. always ask me never never just let it go and think, Oh well perhaps I'll understand it later. Cos you've probably found that already with maths haven't you that once there's a little bit you don't understand they start putting more and more on that... you need to know that little bit for and you... you don't know it and you're getting more and more lost and then it gets a bit late then. [Kerry:] It was only it was only that erm you know erm when you said the sixty pen pence it was the one that was the only one that I seemed to get stuck on. Okay well I'm not too bothered about adding those up. Adding up to ten fine, adding up to twelve that's good that's useful, adding up to sixty one... don't bother doing that again better concentrating on these. Seeing what things' ll multiply together to make twenty four thirty six and sixty. Okay.the don't look at these... just try them Yeah. [John:] So it's just coming up to five to that's okay. Erm... now would you like to write something for me. Yeah if you can write erm... don't think of it as as homework you might like to writ it in book or something. When when I've when I've gone if you just write about what you think about the lessons. Whether it's a good idea me coming here, what are the good things, what are the bad things. What are the things that you'd like it if it was a bit different you'd like it better if it was... a bit more of this and not so much of something else in it okay. [Kerry:] Mm. [John:] Erm... and I'll have a look at that and see how your how your writing's doing. [Kerry:] Okay. [John:] Okay is that alright. Oh hi.... So... And don't forget to put the good things and what are the very good things.... the things that could be better and the things you'd like more or less of.... [Kerry:] I think there could be more of [John:] Erm what thin would you like to do more fractions, more counting or you you think whatever it is that you'd like to do more of or is there anything you think we do too much of and we don't you don't want to do as much.... [Kerry:] [sneeze] [John:] Oh dear.... those. Now... what did you think about this lesson was it a bit boring at some time or you think, Oh or did it go too quickly No. You'd like to spend a bit more time doing things and not do so much in one go? [Kerry:] Er... it went alright really. [John:] Okay. If you think we're doing too much you can sort of say, Ooh hang on. Because I want to do as much as we can during the holiday so that when you go back you you're up there with the rest of them okay. Erm if I try and do too much you might see you might be forgetting as much as you learn mightn't you and that's why it's important for you to do these do these exercises. Okay erm if you want to call your mum I'll just [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] show her what you're doing there so that [Kerry:] Okay. [John:] she'll know as well. Or you can show her okay.... [speaker001:] Hi. [John:] Hi I'll just just show you what er well Kerry'll 'll show you she knows what er what we're what you're going to do over the next day or so don't you. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] We're just playing with twelve pennies and she's making patterns out of them to make multiplication tables [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] really. So she's trying to find out well the ones these are all one that Kerry suggested. Okay you could have one set one set of twelve. Okay that's how you could make up twelve coins one set of twelve. And then what's the next thing you tried? You tried putting them in two two sets of how many. So she tries that and what does that make? [Kerry:] Erm two sets of six. [John:] Okay and then carry on... Okay so now you've made three sets of [Kerry:] Sets of four. [John:] Three sets of four okay and you can just turn that round and look at it that way now. You've got four sets of three. [Kerry:] Four sets of [John:] Okay and... you made six sets of [Kerry:] Twelve. [John:] Six sets of two.... Right didn't you. [Kerry:] Erm [John:] So... that's it just go along the bottom one two three four five six okay, And then you won't move those and what can you do there? That's it six sets of two. And you tried five didn't you [Kerry:] Yeah. [John:] tried sets of five... but it nearly but you two two left over so that's no good [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] It doesn't go exactly into twelve. So five won't go. But we can find all the things that'll go into twelve. Well Kerry's going to do the same thing for twenty four. And then when she's really happy with twelve and with twenty four she's going to try thirty six all the different sets of one times another to make thirty six. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] And sixty is a bit much I think but if she you know if you want to go on and you're really happy you can do anything you like with these thirty six and twenty four... no problem there then go on and try sixty. You'll need a as I said put er put some paper on the or some newspaper won't scratch it. [speaker001:] Oh she'll be in the kitchen Yeah [John:] Okay kitchen table's ideal for sorting your money out on. So try that and the fractions. Be best cut out with a sharp knife that something like a Stanley knife [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] rather than scissors. But just cut it out and then she'll just use the back and... she'll play about with some... helping to get some answers to these fractions [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] and then just generally play with it say, Oh I wonder what would happen if you put two thirds together, how many twelfths would that be or what about if you had a third and you wanted to take a quarter away, if you cut a quarter off it. What would you have left? [Kerry:] A twelfth. [John:] Brilliant yes really good. She's really coming on well [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] with the fractions. You you like them don't you cos you're understanding them now. It's all about understanding if you understand something you can like it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] But if you don't understand it and you're lost you just get to hate it you think, Oh no I can't stand that. So it's it's getting but you're coming along very well aren't you. I didn't bring the erm multiplication table that I promised either so I was late and I didn't bring that. I'll go and stand in the corner I think for being naughty. But erm I'll get that to you in the next... couple of days or so. Now what did we say about the next lesson? We wanted to g get one or two in during the holiday really I think [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] what... you see the idea is to get Kerry getting as much benefit from school as possible so you're not having to pay me [speaker001:] No. [John:] to do the lessons that Kerry is understanding it so she can. Once she's c more or less caught up doesn't have to exactly catch up just have some idea of the basic stuff that they're talking about [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] and then you can just when the teacher says that, you know what questions to ask at least. if you don't if you're just lost you feel daft don't you. So you don't ask and you get sort of so that you understand less and less and eventually you think, Oh I don't feel like going to school today it's fractions again. Yeah so... just to get you so you understand about fractions, you know what's going on and you can ask intelligent questions and your teacher'll think, Oh she knows what she's talking about. She doesn't know how to do it but she knows what to ask and how to get there. So... erm where are we bank holiday Monday next week... I think you probably probably got enough to play with Tuesday. [tape ends]

[speaker001:] Er Okay. [Hugh:] So... We will wait for Andrew to come up with his amendments and therefore we may as well go through the rest of the... agenda.... And slot Andrew's in when he comes in. [Trevor:] So [Hugh:] please. [Trevor:] Can we roll that back as well then? Cos er [knocking] [Hugh:] Roll what back?... [Trevor:] Ah. [Terry:] Got [Trevor:] you don't need to roll it back. [Terry:] Saved by the bell. [Jim:] Have you got a spare agenda?... [Terry:] Didn't you get one Jim?... [Dave:] You'd better get a couple Nola. [Norman:] Here you are. I'll get a couple. [strange noises]... [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] We've done an exercise on on s on comparing... er bridge and works projects,... and er a few Q S individual projects... erm against er... A C skills or I R C [Hugh:] Mhm. [Trevor:] skills Cs. Erm [Jim:] Thanks. [Trevor:] Just to sort of flag up jobs which were over a hundred thousand pounds and that had finished or are... well on their way this year. Erm it's an exercise that you've been... asking for. [Roger:] Morning. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Morning. [speaker001:] Morning. [Hugh:] This this isn't what was holding [Dave:] No. [Trevor:] No. No. No. [Hugh:] Oh. This is S [Trevor:] No. This is the thing Ken done for us. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] Erm [paper rustling] [Hugh:] Right. Well. Would you like to take us through in summary then Trev? [Trevor:] What I, my remit to Ken was to go through with Duncan er projects which were over a hundred thousand pounds. Er that had gone to the Q S... for... documentation or [Hugh:] Mhm. [Trevor:] that we'd completed the erm... er the site work on. And to extract from the DOPACS function codes, anything which wasn't within the scale of B. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] I E er railway liaison, er evaluation of multiple options. The sort of things that we cover in the er er code of practice for charging to clients which are outside this. So add in the quantity surveying element. And if the job was only at say er tender let stage to only take seventy percent of the fee, [Hugh:] Mhm. [Trevor:] in accordance with the A C E er... method. And then to calculate the scale B based on the erm tender total or the actual totals, with the class D reinforced concrete or structural steelwork element added to it. [Hugh:] Added on it. Yeah. [Trevor:] Or for the Q S jobs just to compare straight I C S scale fee. And then to compare our design fees with the scaled fees. Indicate erm tt what the percentage... was, because we've always been sitting round this table patting ourselves on the back, saying that er [Hugh:] H er how well cost effective [Trevor:] how cost effective we are. Now. It's obviously... Th there are gonna be jobs in here that are flagged up as overspent, which aren't or which have got very very good reasons for [Hugh:] Mhm. [Trevor:] er and I'll be the first to recognize that and this was just a sort of the ball park stats that you were looking for. And it was quite worrying really when you look down here [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] just how many of er are in the right hand [Hugh:] Are negative. [Trevor:] column. How many negative ones there are. Bearing in mind that these represent the majority of the large jobs that we've actually had on hand. I've taken out jobs that er like er... St Pancreas roof which is erm... a total of a large amount of money for scaffolding, but really it's not a proper job. Wi wi there's no BES jobs in here because erm we [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Trevor:] haven't got the mechanism for looking at the BES er scale in in the timescale we were looking at. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Erm [Terry:] Is th no no supervision involved? [Trevor:] There's no site super there's no resident engineering involved and no [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] workshop supervisors involved. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] There's no railway liaison, there's no prices [Hugh:] Mm. They would al they would a they would always come at ti on a time basis anyhow all those operations. These these are [Trevor:] That's correct. Yes. We we've subtracted [Hugh:] scaled fee scaled [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] fee costs against the equivalent... cost of our design. [Trevor:] That's right. [Hugh:] Right. Accepting your qualifications, Trev, that erm there may well be good reasons for these, there is there is a very strong message there isn't there? I mean I've just worked out there's, there are twenty eight jobs there, of which... er we've we've only really made a profit on eight. That's on the face [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] of it. [Dave:] This is only a sample though isn't it? [Trevor:] Well.... It's... it we we took about fifty or so jobs that that were over a hundred thousand pounds, and then we knocked off... erm... the BES jobs and and jobs which were outside party, jobs where we hadn't actually done the design work. Erm we were just doing watching brief and that sort of thing. Er a and basically this is [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] this is a sort of the sample that that we were left with. Er I'm not s erm... er it doesn't include jobs that we've done the design work on and sent to the areas for building. Erm which [Roger:] Even if they're over a hundred thousand? [Trevor:] Well. W we the mechanism of finding out the jobs You see I I [Hugh:] Could I just hold it there? What what? [Terry:] There's something [Hugh:] what are we trying to gain from this? We're trying to gain a feel as to whether we are being cost-effective [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] or not in our design. [Dave:] Mm. [Hugh:] Right? And what I don't wanna do, is is to get involved in looking at all these and saying, oh. Bloody hell. You know we l lost money on that but,an and trying to find excuses for that. The th the snapshot is that we've looked at twenty eight jobs, and out of those twenty eight jobs, if we have been working on scale fees, it would appear that we would have lost money on twenty of them. In other [Terry:] B but [Hugh:] words two thirds of them. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] That must give us a message. [Terry:] Cou could I ask, before we go too deep into the issue, that if we are gonna use this er er make proper use of it, that we have some time to analyze the [Hugh:] To analyze it. [Terry:] figures? [Trevor:] Oh. Yeah. [Roger:] Because [Terry:] I mean I spoke to Ken before he started doing this exercise, and I'm worried [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] that although we've taken supervisors out of it plus supervision, [Hugh:] Mhm. [Terry:] they won't have taken the R Es out. [Trevor:] Oh. We have taken the R Es out. [Terry:] Okay. Well let us us have a look at the figures if we could. Be because we can make some sense [Hugh:] Agreed. [Terry:] after we've looked at the figures. [Trevor:] Yes. [Roger:] Are these done on final [Terry:] But at the moment we're stabbing in [Roger:] costs? [Hugh:] Agreed. [Terry:] stab in the dark at the moment. [Roger:] Or estimated costs?... [Trevor:] These are done on tendered... tendered totals or actual costs. [speaker001:] Ah. [Trevor:] I would suspect that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. [Terry:] In other words what you would have got [Dave:] No. What? [Terry:] you would have got paid. [Trevor:] No. No. Lawrence was making the point that if if [speaker001:] Wh [Trevor:] there's a hundred thousand pounds worth of claims th then there are more fees that we would be entitled to. [Roger:] What [speaker001:] Er [Roger:] should be on final? [Terry:] Sorry. Th the other thing is [speaker001:] Yeah. [Terry:] as well is there's a big debate as to erm whether you do get paid on tender figures or whether you actually get paid on the estimated cost. Certainly the way the documents are laid out it's supposed to be estimated cost. [Dave:] Yeah. [Terry:] not the actual tender figures. [Roger:] What the? [Trevor:] Oi! [Terry:] A C E documents. [Roger:] No way. You get paid on final costs. [Terry:] Well. It depends which clause you look at. [Roger:] No. No doubt about it. [Trevor:] Well. No. Y you're talking about the way that the Department of Transport have dealt with... [Terry:] Yes. [Trevor:] British Rail over the last thirty years. [Roger:] Mm. Well. [Hugh:] Y need to look [Terry:] You need to look at the document [Roger:] Department of Transport jobs we do. [Terry:] you need to look at the document [Roger:] The agreements are based on the final cost of the work. [Trevor:] Ah! The agreement the agreement. Now Terry's quoting [Hugh:] Is the [Trevor:] A C E condit [Dennis:] Terms of engagement. [Trevor:] terms of engagement. [Terry:] Engagement. [Trevor:] Now. Now. That might be different. [Terry:] Which uses estimated cost. [Hugh:] Right. I I think Terry's suggestion [Roger:] Erm [Hugh:] is is the best one that we we now have this data. And rather than [Terry:] Make good use of it. [Hugh:] leap in without looking at the detail of it, I think now the function heads namely you, [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Roger, Terry and David, er need to take this away, have a look at it and at the next meeting we either then draw some conclusions and again what I'm looking for [Terry:] Recommendations isn't it? [Hugh:] are lessons learned. I mean it may be... that Ken has not drawn these up in the right way. On the other hand it may be that we... are not cost-effective. And if if we're not, then so be it. At least we'll be able to address that. [Norman:] Er could I just ask the advice of the assembled expertise here? I've only got one item on the list which is the Haverton Bank Slip. [Trevor:] Yes. Cos that [Norman:] Er [cough] now the bulk of the... cost was in the s survey work. Is that normally a legitimate part of [Trevor:] Yes. [Norman:] scaled fees? Er the actual design work was relatively slight. [Trevor:] Yes. The survey work would be part of the project. Yes. [Norman:] Cos [Roger:] It comes in your first twenty percent, but for survey would be constituted into a survey [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] up to four. So the survey would be constituted as se er twenty percent of the fees. [Trevor:] Yeah. I it [Terry:] But that's only for [speaker001:] Yeah. [Terry:] I it [Roger:] That's all you'd get. [Terry:] Be very careful that y you don't actually have to use the split that Roger's using. [Trevor:] No. No. Bu but yes. It, that wouldn't be outside the scale fee. The survey is part of i if someone commissioned a consulting engineer to do a project, then he would be expected to do the survey, the the the scheme design and the detail design, and the on-site er management type of element for the hundred percent of the scaled fee. [Terry:] Okay. [Trevor:] It's only if, but [Terry:] But [Trevor:] after you'd done the survey you were asked to multiple options you [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] would get paid for those multiple options probably on a time basis until [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] somebody homed in on one and then you would be back on your scaled fee for the [Terry:] The the only problem, the only problem that actually when you're looking at this, is if in fact part of the feasibility involves you doing a survey, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Terry:] then it wouldn't be involved in the scaled fee. It would be on a time basis. So it depends when it occurs. [Trevor:] Oh. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yeah. I mean [Terry:] I think the only one to look at feasibility to start with you can actually get away charging all the survey to the time basis [Trevor:] To the feasibility [Terry:] to feasibility stage. In which case you c want [Trevor:] And then keep your fingers crossed that you're gonna get the [Terry:] the next [Trevor:] the development of the [speaker001:] Yeah. [Trevor:] of the options. [Terry:] So it just depends. [Hugh:] Do each of you have a copy of this of of the A C terms of engagement? [Terry:] It was only me got a proper [Hugh:] Right. Ca Trev? Can you get copies of the A C terms of engagement for each of the function heads and myself? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Jim:] Can I raise a a point on this? There's I take it you're in a position to total these up with each other? Cos you know to look at the bottom line of total design fees against what they would have been if we'd gone in fixed price? [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Well. That's if we'd gone in on fixed price on scaled fee [Terry:] On scaled fees. [Trevor:] and of course and we would have been patting ourselves on the back saying we could go in under [Jim:] Well. [Trevor:] under scaled fees with comfortably [Jim:] What I what I what I would say is something I found in in BES has happened... while I've been here much less now than than earlier on, is engineers... robbing Peter to pay Paul. [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] And well I I I know I know on some of my schemes that can have a very dramatic effect. You can, in other words you can hide jobs which are... badly overrunning. [Hugh:] We don't want to do that. That I [Jim:] No. Indeed. [Trevor:] We've always said that we wouldn't do that. A a and certainly the way that we... are set up at the moment, there is no need for us to do that. [Jim:] No. I, that's not what I'm saying Trevor. I know I know we shouldn't [Trevor:] Right. [Jim:] but what I'm saying is if it happens, [Terry:] Well. Once it, yeah. Once it happens we we, our credibility with our customers goes out the window doesn't it? [Hugh:] But if we do that, all we do is we we delude ourselves. [Jim:] Exactly. [Hugh:] Because what we what we want to know is is those jobs where we have done well, because we can learn the bollocking lessons from them. Those jobs where we've done badly because we can learn why they went badly and make sure that they don't happen again. [Trevor:] Aye the, many of the reasons for these... being over are nothing to do with the efficiency of the design office, they're due to the efficiency of the s [Hugh:] Of the client. [Trevor:] or or lack of it of our clients with the stop go attitude. It's on. It's off. It's on. It's off. Roll it back. Roll it forward. Rush it. [Jim:] I wasn't looking at the negative [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] I was looking at er an extremely large positive [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jim:] and wondering how we can do a job for two thousand four hundred and fifty, when according to the experts in the field it was gonna cost fourteen and a half thousand pounds. [Trevor:] Which one was that? [Jim:] Near the bottom. The one at Neville Hill. [Hugh:] The Neville [Terry:] Oh. Yeah. [Hugh:] Hill pits. [Terry:] That's the pits we did. Yeah. [Roger:] I'm very suspicious of these tender fig I think these are the original tender figures and not what what final costs were. [Trevor:] Poss possibly Roger that I I I'm sure you're probab I'm sure you're right Roger. [Roger:] which [Trevor:] I'm sure you're right but [Hugh:] . That will come out in your detailed look at it won't it? [Trevor:] but even so we would like to think that erm that we can do the design work surely for the original tender figures, er and hope that our erm our drawings and er specifications are such that erm, and our site investigations are such that we shouldn't have major claims appearing on on our jobs. I I I know that that's [Roger:] In an ideal world very true. [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Roger:] Anyway I'm delighted to to see we've at last got round to this. You might remember I've been pressing for this for about eighteen bloody months. To have a scaled fees figure. [Trevor:] Roger I'd've given it you a lot quicker if you'd given me a list of jobs to work on. [Roger:] Yeah. It's [Trevor:] But anyway. [Jim:] Well. I wanted to on the report you know so always had it with easy reference but [Hugh:] Right. [Roger:] Good. [Hugh:] Okay? [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] Excellent. Thank you for that Trevor are now going to look at these figures and come back to the next meeting er with some comments,... with regards to their projects. And Trevor will provide us all with copies of the terms of engagement. The A C terms of engagement. Good. [Jim:] When when can we expect this as a standard feature on the database? [Trevor:] We can expect it as a standard feature from the database, once we've built the systems that hold the costs for the the estimated costs for value of the work. [Jim:] Mm. [Trevor:] So that we then have got something to compare against something to calculate the fee on. Because er in the past people haven't filled in the value of the erm of the work element in in the databases. And I I don't criticize them for that, because the the fields that were in the databases in the past didn't d er w were sort of total cost of the [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] job and y you weren't really knowing whether it included or excluded the A Cs anyway and that sort of thing. [Roger:] tried to put them at our at the cost of our of the work for quite a while. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] But not, any rate m [Terry:] Does it include Q S fees? [Trevor:] Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. Y [Dave:] Absolutely. [Trevor:] Yes. It in it includes [Dave:] It ought to [Trevor:] the Q S fees. Certainly. [Terry:] It shouldn't do really. Anyway [Dave:] Why? [Terry:] we can discuss that [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] Well. Look. Q S fees are part of the seventy percent of the scaled fees. [Trevor:] Of course they are. [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] They're not extra. [Trevor:] They're part of the hundred percent [Terry:] They're not. [Trevor:] of the scaled fees. [Roger:] They are. [Terry:] It depends if you go in-house or you go outside [Trevor:] Well we always go in-house. [Terry:] Well. That's our fault. [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] No. [Trevor:] Ah. Dave wouldn't you like to be sat here? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] No. No. Dave knows what I'm talking about. [Dave:] No. I think he's making a valid point. [Jim:] Well. Only one [Roger:] Going outside. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Look s s seriously the point the point I'm making is that for for most jobs of an average sort of size, what happens under A C E scale fees as I understand it, if I'm wrong I'm I stand corrected. But what... in re in practical terms if the consultant can do all the estimating in-house, with a very limited resource. And sometimes that means sending a drawing out getting a contractor to price for it rather than him doing it, er using standard books and goodness knows else like Sponds. He'll come up with an estimated erm an estimated price and er and do most of the Q S-ing in house. But if it's a lousy job and he has to go out to someone like [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] or somebody else, that m money is extra. Look. Sorry. That's what it [LAUGHTER] says in [] the document Roger. [Roger:] Let's let's not [Hugh:] We needn't debate it here. You're gonna get copies of terms of the terms of engagement, and I [Trevor:] Ah. It's still not clear I mean we're [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] Mike and and [Terry:] That's right. [Trevor:] Terry and I talked round this subject for [Terry:] Some while. [Trevor:] for for some while. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Again. Let's let's focus on [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Right. [Dennis:] what our objective is. Our objective is to see whether we would have made money on those or not. Isn't it? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] Mm. [Hugh:] And to establish I mean I think that as a g [Terry:] Ca [Hugh:] group of twenty eight jobs if if, what we really need to know is overall [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] because there will be jobs where we lose money. But overall on those twenty eight jobs, would we have done well? Would we have done badly? Or would we have done okay? [Jim:] Of course the bigger the job the less excuse there is for er not doing well.... [Hugh:] It depends on the circumstances associated with the job. As Trevor said in his opening remarks, [Trevor:] Can [Terry:] Please look at [Trevor:] can I just make these these four brief points? One a er [reading] scaled fees are based on tender figures but C D G Ps relate to actual final costs of project []. So that that's Roger's erm er Roger's point. [reading] Scaled fees are based on a very rough breakdown of the project into structural design and other works []. So. I it th the detail of the class the content... might be just a, an approximation. Er [reading] there are many cases where it was difficult to tie up the appointment contract with the physical works contract. Some of the major differences could be due to this []. And er... [reading] an in-depth study would involve speaking to the relevant project engineers obviously []. [Hugh:] I agree with that. [Trevor:] So i it is just a sore thumb exercise it it's er [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm [Trevor:] to plug up the [Hugh:] It is. The immediate reaction is is one of disappointment, but let's let's get behind the figures first. Right. Nineteen ninety two ninety two ninety three annual report progress [Trevor:] Kim and I met a chap called Darren from, and explained our design of this year to put an annual report together, which would be based on er a folder which woul could take individual A four er sheets. Erm so that we could actually produce about two hundred annual reports if we wanted, but we [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] could use the same report cover by printing a s perhaps a thousand of those. And have those erm f for specific projects and reports and things like that that could go out in er er i in the future. Er we showed him one or two examples of similar sorts of presentations that we'd had from other railway and outside organizations, er explained what we'd done in the past, said that we were looking to get something more up-market and more erm professional, which was why we were looking to er er seek er quotes from er g graphics designers, linked in with printers. And we talked to him about the Intercity erm presentation requirements, and sent him away to think about it. He came back er ten days later er and produced a couple of er mock-ups. Erm. This was a sort of a suggestion of the of the layout [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] based on er the type of stuff that we had last year. Er if I can pass that round. Er he he'd just taken some photographs out of last year's er annual report and put a heading up and stuck some text on it. We had indicated when we asked him to quote that we would want one sheet like that to represent what each office was able to produce. [Nola:] Mm.. [Trevor:] And then we'd asked him [speaker001:] Yeah. [Trevor:] about the folder and erm er suggested that he considered the Intercity silver, similar to the report cover. Er a and he jazzed this up a little bit, and perhaps I think he's gone a bit over the top on it.... Norman will quite like the er bit that P Way stuck on it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Oh. That's that's always there Norman. It doesn't matter what we put into these erm [Norman:] Quotes Kevin and Mick stood waiting on the platform. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [Trevor:] And that was an alternative that he came up with for the erm... er for the front cover.... What was the bottom Larry? I can't [Jim:] Three thousand nine hundred. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] We were looking about four thousand pounds for for s for a thousand copies of the [Hugh:] I think that's quite nice actually. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] How do I look? [Trevor:] Ah. Ah. It's just the it's just the largened the the the two white squares and [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Ah. Yeah.. It's different isn't it? [Hugh:] Yeah.... [reading] Glorium ipsum dolor [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] six pound [Trevor:] Ha ha ha. That's ipsumdet [Jim:] Ipsum ipsum detabla [Dave:] [LAUGHTER]... [Hugh:] Mm. [Nola:] We don't need it in Latin that's only added expense. [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] At least at least nobody's gonna [Nola:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] disagree with her []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Erm Yeah. The f the four the four thousand pound quote was for [Hugh:] I don't like that one. [Trevor:] No. Was for a thousand erm [Hugh:] No. [Terry:] a thousand folders machine varnished and... two hundred [Hugh:] Retail men [Trevor:] copies of seven individual sheets to go in. That's based on the same number of colour photographs that we had in last year's annual report. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] which I think was about [Hugh:] What sort of difference is there if we if we put more pictures in or? [Trevor:] Oh. The the the pictures are where the money is it's [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] that. Erm well. I think really what we want to do is to decide whether or not we are using the annual report as a a list of jobs that we did last year. Or whether we're using it as as a a mailshot reminding our customers of of how good we are and and what our improved facilities [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] that we can offer are. And then we've gotta decide whether we keep it... simple erm or whether we put loads of text in. Cos my feeling is t they only look at the pictures, [Dave:] Yeah. Sure they do. [Trevor:] a a and they're only prepared to read one or two paragraphs of text. [Dave:] Mhm. [Trevor:] I quite like the way that they've used the Intercity claret for the [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] text here because it does make it that little bit more interesting and people are likely to think, oh! It's not black and white. I'll read it. Or I I'll start to read it. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Then what's in there. I mean at least you've got a chance that they're gonna stay with you and er a a a and read the odd paragraph. [Hugh:] Right. There are a number things I think we need to debate. Number one is, how much are we prepared to spend? [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] And and and the three thousand nine hundred doesn't seem out of this world as far as I'm concerned. [Trevor:] No. No. No. It [Hugh:] erm I mean up, are we prepared to go up to five thousand? Or? Seven? Or? [Roger:] What did we spend last year? [Trevor:] Erm [Terry:] How much copies is that then? In simple terms? [Hugh:] Well. I if we talk about holding [Terry:] Thousand thousand [Trevor:] About two. Well. No. We're talking about a thousand covers, cos the actual extra cost of print once once you start printing it the run on cost is is negligible. Erm [Jim:] We're having a few extra of these if you want to send something else out [Trevor:] It cost five hundred and forty five to print two hundred of those, and cost eight hundred and fifty pounds to print [Hugh:] A thousand. [Trevor:] a thousand.... Now Jim wanted to have some of those to send out future mailshots [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] on on specific technical erm [Terry:] Yeah. That's what I thought we'd agreed [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] hadn't we? [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] Good idea. [Terry:] We're gonna have A four sheets [speaker001:] Yeah. [Terry:] with a single, oh, that's right with a single project on and we just [Trevor:] Ah. No. No. No. No. [Terry:] Well. I need to clear this [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] because I've got totally confused on the last briefing, and I thought [Trevor:] What? [Terry:] we were doing two things. We were producing an annual report [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] which had probably one sheet of everybody's in with a couple of small photographs. Maybe double-sided. A description [Trevor:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Terry:] the talk. And it didn't list jobs. [Trevor:] Why not? [Terry:] It said this is what we're capable of doing. [Hugh:] Correct. [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] And then we're having another thing with the same sort of brochure as a mailshot type thing in loose-leaf format. In which there'd be a picture and a description with a few words. [Trevor:] Right. Well. Every time we do one [Terry:] That's that that's fine. [Trevor:] it, yeah. [Nola:] [cough] [Trevor:] every time we do one of those if we have it printed on on glossy paper to this sort of style you're looking at sort of... erm [Jim:] Couple of [Hugh:] Th the principle of having a large number to spare [Trevor:] t two or three hundred pounds. [Hugh:] seems to me to be good. [Trevor:] Oh. Yes. [Terry:] Yes. [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] That's what I was meaning.... [Hugh:] Er er ca can can I digress a little bit beca I wo and then come back? Because I, there are a couple of things that are relevant?... We've got we've got the the financial commentary now er an and the annual report to go out.... And... that needs to go into that nee that needs to go into something like this to go out. Or does it? [Trevor:] Well. [Hugh:] The question i the question in my mind is this. How is a presentation such as that gonna be received by our clients? In the present financial climate? I think we'd get away with it. But I put it on the table because it is a risk. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Roger:] Well. We all thought the Swindon one was over the top didn't we? Even when [Hugh:] We did. [Roger:] we weren't in such a financial state we're in now? [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] And that was cos maybe it was too thick [Hugh:] And also [Roger:] and too [Hugh:] it was too much of an ego trip for certain personalities as well. [Roger:] Well yeah. So I think si number of pages [Trevor:] Yes. [Roger:] you know if you do something that's twenty pages, they'll think, bloody hell. If you do something that's only six pages [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yeah. That's alright. [Roger:] number of pages involved [Hugh:] Mm. Agreed. [Trevor:] Yes. I mean, ah. My instruction was [Roger:] Oh. Erm [Trevor:] our estimates were based on one sheet per function [Terry:] Plus a double-sided sheet [Roger:] Yeah. Yeah. [Trevor:] a double-sided A four sheet with [Dave:] That's fine. [Trevor:] with with two or three colour photographs. That's what [Roger:] Yes. I don't think anybody would say that's over the top. [Hugh:] Right. We'll go for it. [Terry:] We'll go for it. [Roger:] Plus a couple of pages of [Hugh:] That's decided. [Roger:] general policy [Trevor:] Yes. [Roger:] written by Hugh. [Trevor:] That's right. Yes. The sort of introduction [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] didn't we do well? I I mean last year [Hugh:] About the year [Trevor:] if if you remember we we kept the annual report bit, the financial bit just down to to one side. [Roger:] Two four six [Trevor:] we could probably get it down to a a quarter of a side if [Hugh:] Yeah. And we don't need to put anything in about our our scales of fees and that sort of thing. That's a separate issue. [speaker001:] Oh [Terry:] That's right. [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] Right. So. We'll go for it and we'll and we'll risk it. Now then. The next thing is er on the agenda we've got... the or I thought we had. In in the any other business I'm gonna raise the question of us doing work for Irish Railways. [Nola:] [whispering] Oh. That's this afternoon. [LAUGHTER] Sorry [] [LAUGHTER] [] [Hugh:] Now we've been approached by Irish Railway with regard, they've got something like thirty million pounds from the to upgrade line from Dublin to Belfast. And they've hopefully they're gonna come and see us, to seek our advice on... the design techniques that we've used on East Coast Main Line, and the construction techniques with particular regard to bridges. But I also felt that that we have something to offer in terms of works BES [Terry:] Station design [Hugh:] and and and... P Way. So they're gonna come and see us. Now. If we had this up and running, the sort of thing that we would do is put together a package [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and hand it over. So [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] I'm very supportive. If if you are? [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] Definitely. [Hugh:] In in terms of having that. [Trevor:] I'm sure a lot of, it it'll not take as long to sort it out, because we've broken. We broke the back of it a lot on the work that we did for Rickmansworth. [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] Erm It's really only a case of each function sifting through the information that they've pulled together from the annual report. Erm I mean I I've got from I think I've certainly got Roger's and and Norman's... erm stuff for [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] you know er for the annual report. Which is actually a [Terry:] You've got my text but not pictures. [Trevor:] Right. which is actually a [Terry:] You know it's in in the form that we've done them in the past. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] Er obviously we will need to decide on rationalizing that down, to to highlight one or two of the larger jobs and Mhm. and and erm a... and build up a little bit of er [sniff] text on just how good we are, and what we can produce, and how well equipped we are. Both in in e in equipment and in er [Roger:] But, we've still two I still see we've got two documents though. [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] The annual report and the loose-leaf thing that [Terry:] Yeah. The leaf. [Roger:] we will hand over [Nola:] . Hand that to [Roger:] to Irish Railways. Now if we do the annual report properly, pages from the annual report can progressively be incorporated into this loose-leaf, and others taken out, and [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] Right. We're talk [Roger:] you know [Trevor:] This this loose-leaf [Roger:] So you've only got one bit. You're setting up and prin the setting that's the expensive bit not the running off isn't it? [Trevor:] No. That that's correct Roger. The, what we're talking about though forgetting the run-on costs which which really we can discount because they are negligible. We're talking about something in the region of four thousand pounds to do the... the loose-leaf brochure and seven sheets. What do we want to spend on top of that on printing an annual report? And who are we gonna send it to, if anybody? I mean we used to do the annual report because the R C E had to provide something to the General Manager [Hugh:] Correct. [Trevor:] and it was never anything [Hugh:] But any any [Trevor:] other than text was it? You [Hugh:] any business produces an annual report. [Roger:] Mm. [Terry:] Mm.... [Trevor:] But they they have to produce an annual report for [Hugh:] For their shareholders. [Trevor:] their shareholders. That's right. [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] It's not for their [Hugh:] No. [Trevor:] customers. [Terry:] That's a s th that's a different sort of annual report [Hugh:] It is. [Terry:] . That's a financial [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] s financial accountant statement for the year. [Trevor:] Yes, I mean it would include most of that. Now we've never done anything other than very very s briefly precis [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] the the end of year results. So you know [Hugh:] What are we trying achieve? [Trevor:] What are we trying to do? [Roger:] Yeah. saying do we need an annual report? If we [Trevor:] That's right. Mm. [Roger:] put all our energy into our loose-leaf. [Trevor:] We have an annual report for er this end of year financial commentary. There will be nothing to stop us taking that, erm binding it up, sending it to Peter a a and Chris if we wanted, [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] a a and call it a day. Er [Terry:] It's about as interesting as a financial report from anybody. [Nola:] It's a promotional document. [Trevor:] That's right. [Roger:] way even less [LAUGHTER] interesting than []. [Hugh:] Really really what has it got to do with our clients? [Terry:] That's right. [Trevor:] Absolutely. [Jim:] Really all you need i I mean this is a marketing medium we're trying to [speaker001:] Shh. [Trevor:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [Jim:] cos as far as annual reports are concerned you just want a statement from Hugh, and a rough idea of how we've performed financially. [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] There's no detail. [Terry:] Could I could I say this? [Trevor:] That's right. Yes. [Terry:] The there's there's there's an interesting way involved in my mind when I started writing this in this changed format from last year. And th and and what I did is, all Roger's got so far is about one sheet of A four typed up or something like [Trevor:] Trevor. [Terry:] that. Trevor. Sorry. Erm... which basically says what the main issues throughout the year were. Problems with staff, [Hugh:] Mhm. [Terry:] erm certain types of design we concentrated on. Possibly something about clients. I can't quite remember what all that's in it now. Erm and then I thought, now, what I can't do is I I can't do what we did last year a and really put a photograph and a des and a description of it. And that's why, then in my mind I thought, yes. Well. It, we'll we'll put those in this loose-leaf format where we can sli whip out all the BES ones etcetera if we don't want them [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] and just send our own thing off erm separately. So. It seems to me that that there's some manoeuvrability. That if we want an internal report we don't have to include photographs. If we wanted an internal report er to go to a few selected clients that report would mainly be text. Cos [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] it's telling people including the staff what the main issues were and how we fought through them. So that the only one [Jim:] That's right. [Terry:] you actually need to be t send outside externally or to clients, is the one which has the loose-leaf format showing, here's a mega- project. Picture at the top, short description [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] at the bottom. So. I mean that that's another alternative is that we don't bother with pictures. [Hugh:] Mhm. [Terry:] We put we put I m I mean we don't actually bind the report up in the er how we would do professionally. It depends how we want to tackle it. [Hugh:] C can I? [Terry:] You just slide that into a loose-leaf [Hugh:] Yeah. Great. Thanks a lot Terry. That's that's cleared my mind a bit. Erm I I still feel, as as a a business, we need for our own purposes an internal report. [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] Are we agreed on that? [Terry:] Yeah. Yes. I think [Trevor:] That's fine because [Hugh:] We don't need that to go out to clients. [Terry:] we select [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] What issues [Hugh:] What I would like to think, and I would like to keep that formalized, because if we don't it's just gonna drift and and [Trevor:] Right. [Hugh:] and and I mean I I often refer back to the annual reports. What I would like to think is is that we put together an annual report for our own purposes, and that goes out to a very limited distribution, as Trevor was suggesting. [Terry:] Right, we could bind that ourselves. We could bind that ourselves [Hugh:] Plus our own staff. [Roger:] You see there were complaints [Hugh:] Yes. [Roger:] last year that there weren't enough, and that a lot didn't get one, and they were all disappointed. [Terry:] We could bind that ourselves at next to no cost. [Roger:] You know. [Hugh:] And and we bind it in th n in the way that we [Terry:] Normal [Hugh:] bind up our normal [Terry:] reports. [Hugh:] C E D G reports. [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] Right. [Hugh:] So that's what w w are we agreed we'll do that? [Trevor:] Yeah. I'm surprised at that Rog cos we've [Roger:] Mm. [Trevor:] still got some left. [Roger:] Ah.... Right. [Hugh:] Lots of them. [Roger:] Yeah? [Trevor:] Well. Not lots I mean we've probably got about twenty or so. I mean it's surprising how how often they get used through the year [Terry:] And we use them [Trevor:] by people people who come are coming for interviews [Jim:] That's right. [Trevor:] or people [Jim:] Mm. [Trevor:] who want to er [Roger:] Well. Yeah. [Hugh:] They're very useful. [Roger:] That's it. I'll have some of them, and I'll find out how many. [Terry:] But that's [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] but that's the annual report that we bind up [Hugh:] For our own purposes and and and [Terry:] Right. [Hugh:] the only people [Terry:] help [Hugh:] are [Terry:] mind doing that. [Hugh:] John Peter and our own staff. I think it's important that our own staff see our financial [Roger:] Oh. Yeah. [Hugh:] figures. [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] Yeah. [Jim:] Mm? [Terry:] I think the interesting, yeah. And I think those charts are very interesting about where the client base is [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] for each individual office. [Hugh:] Good. [Terry:] That's very good. [Trevor:] The problem with that is of course that [Terry:] Go on. [Trevor:] if you're wanting to produce two hundred of those I mean if we colour photocopy and you're talking about forty five pence each [Terry:] We don't have to colour photocopy them just s try it in black and white and see what it comes out like. [Hugh:] Yeah. But they're they're awful in black and white.... [Terry:] I've not seen them. [Hugh:] How muc how much does it cost for a printer to w to whip off two hundred then? [Nola:] Year before last [speaker001:] A lot. [Trevor:] Well. That's th that's where the money comes. Colour is very expensive. I mean that's the same as a colour photograph. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] But what's the? [Trevor:] I mean the only other thing we could do would be to [Jim:] downstairs? [Trevor:] That's forty five pence [Hugh:] Forty five P [Trevor:] forty five pence a sheet. [Roger:] Mm. [Trevor:] The the only other thing we could do would be to put would be to make colour acetates and then team brief them. On the overhead projector. [Roger:] No. No. People want to be able to take it away and study it. If it's in brief it's up [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] and it's gone and you're [Terry:] Well you can put in on the wall afterwards. It'll save money. [Hugh:] Yeah. You s you see [Roger:] Can't? [Hugh:] two hundred of our staff won't be interested in that. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Do [] [Jim:] Right. [Trevor:] do they want individual copies? Could we not just put [Hugh:] No. I don't think they do. [Trevor:] could we not just circulate them? [Roger:] The pie one is the interesting one as as Terry said. [speaker001:] Yes. [Roger:] So people know where our work is coming from. Can't that pie one be done so it would erm [Trevor:] Oh. Yes. We can do it we can do it in [Roger:] do black and white? [Trevor:] we can do it in black and white Roger. Yes. I mean you can get the different hashing and what not. [Dave:] That come [Roger:] That's erm [Dave:] out in black and white. [Roger:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yes. [Roger:] That's enough. [Terry:] I think that would come out in black and white. [Roger:] That's enough [Terry:] You can see where the arrows are. [Trevor:] Ah. A [Roger:] Most people [Trevor:] Okay. We'll we'll we'll try and plot it then produce [Hugh:] say twenty odd of them and circulate them? [Terry:] Yeah. [Nola:] Or you could have a visual mounted display on the boards outside for [Hugh:] No. People just wouldn't. [Dave:] they keep coming down. [Hugh:] I I I think if we produce twe say twenty odd and we circulated them through the sections. Those people who were interested would read them [Dave:] Right. [Hugh:] and those who wouldn't weren't interested [Jim:] For twenty odd you might as well run through the printer Trevor. [Terry:] True. [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] Let the printer do it. [Trevor:] Oh yes. Yeah. We'd just set it going and just [Jim:] Let them. There's no point in [Trevor:] No. [speaker001:] paying [Trevor:] No. [Jim:] forty five pence a copy when you've got a printer there. [Trevor:] Jus just just set it going and go go and have your dinner. [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yeah. Yes. It's just you know [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] And certainly we're not trying to impress we're trying to get information over aren't we? [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] That's right. [Jim:] So there's no need to go to great expense of printed what have you. [Terry:] That's right. [Jim:] It's externally where the money needs to be spent. [Hugh:] It is. [Terry:] Yes. Correct. Which is why the other package which wants doing in [Dave:] Mm. [Terry:] this format with [Hugh:] That's right. [Terry:] single sheets. [Hugh:] So. How many copies of the annual report? I mean every every one of us should have a copy. [Trevor:] Are we talking about this [Jim:] Yeah. [Trevor:] financial, the whole of this financial commentary plus... [Hugh:] Plus plus a commentary from each function head. [Trevor:] plus a commentary from each function head. Right. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] Three copies for BES.... [Dave:] Shall we send one to the people who are going to Scarborough conference? [Hugh:] Yeah. Probably. Yes. So we're talking about twenty [Trevor:] Twenty four [Hugh:] twenty five say. [Trevor:] Twenty five copies? [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Right.... When you send the erm... the text through for your erm... annual reports ca can you let me know where... where it is on the network? [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] If you just tell me which directory it is and what file name it is then we put it all together and erm... get at it. [Jim:] I'm slightly confused now. We're gonna do an annual report and I I've no problem with that. And doing the write up. But what about the write up for the [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] Glossy. [Jim:] other? [Trevor:] Yes. Well. We're gonna have to [sniff] collaborate on that aren't [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] we? Cos we're gonna have to decide on a style and then I mean what I'll do is I'll come and sit down with each of you and and we'll [Terry:] I've got one drafted out already. [Trevor:] Great. [Terry:] It's very limite it's about, it's it's one picture, about [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] half an A four and then it has something like, no more than six or eight lines. It says who the client is, what the approximate value of the job was, who the contractor was, and the main issues. [Dave:] That's about jobs you're talking, individual projects? [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] Mm yes. [Dave:] Right. [Terry:] That's what you were talking about [Dave:] I thought we were [Trevor:] No. We're not. I'm [Terry:] Ah. [Trevor:] I'm talking I'm talking about [Terry:] Oh. Right. Well. Let's let's get straight what we are talking about then. [Trevor:] Well. No. Jim's talking about what's going on... [Dave:] That double sided [Trevor:] on that double sided [Terry:] Oh. Sorry. [Hugh:] Right. Cos I've finished with annual report haven't we? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Now. Wi with the other, the other exercise is a marketing exercise isn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] And basically, again can we just talk about what we're trying to achieve? My understanding is what we're trying to achieve is, to have a a a double-sided A four sheet, which is intended to demonstrate to our clients, what good lads we are and what good work we do for each in each function. [Dave:] Mm.... [Hugh:] And that's it basically isn't it? [Dave:] No. Ter Terry's going on one stage [Terry:] No. [Dave:] further with the the project which is [Terry:] I didn't think we were doing that because that that that becomes very difficult then. And I can see why Jim possibly is confused now because I'm confused [Trevor:] No he's not. [Terry:] as well. Oh, you're not confused. Right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] There's only one person confused round here Terry []. But we but we but we will have [speaker001:] to to me [Terry:] No. To me I thought we were doing, individual projects which we'd be able to be update in a loose-leaf format [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] as new pro as old projects went we threw the old one away and we put a new leaf, loose-leaf sheet in. And I'm ha but that means if you only actually fi it, to do it professionally you want enough room to do one project on one side of one sheet. [Trevor:] No. [Jim:] That wasn't about, it wasn't about projects. The marketing exercise for me wasn't about projects. You might wish to put a project in to make a point [Terry:] Fine. [Jim:] but [Terry:] It was about numbers of staff. It was about [Jim:] It was it it it it was about for example [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] this is this is BESs [Hugh:] Expertise. [Jim:] staff complement. This is what BES can do, and have you heard the latest about fire security? Are you aware that your lighting might not be appropriate for your V D Us? You know marketing in other [speaker001:] Mhm. [Jim:] words, getting in at a a a particular point on a particular subject. [Terry:] Right. We do need to discuss it further then don't we? [Hugh:] We do. [Trevor:] Yeah. Can I suggest that we talk about the four thousand pound job as a sort of practice profile if we like? [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Or or or... f for want of a better name at this stage. A and the annual report is, the financial summary plus the text that you would normally have provided [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] For previous [Trevor:] years ago about about successes and failures and problems and [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] er al and and future aspirations. [Hugh:] Yeah. Now that's good because it does, it gives us a record which we can refer [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] back to and [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] and see how we've gone over the year. [Trevor:] . And that will be circulated to internal erm [Hugh:] Staff. [Trevor:] We're gonna need more than twenty five cos we're also gonna to send it off to... one or two major er er certainly Peter and people like that I think.... [Roger:] Yeah. And that we publish ourselves? [Trevor:] That's right. [Hugh:] Yes. Yes. [whispering] Yes []. [Terry:] Well. Aim for fifty. We'll have enough for fifty won't we?... [Jim:] don't like to hit the clients do you? [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] No. We don't want it to hit the clients. [Jim:] Otherwise they're gonna be getting two [Terry:] No. [Jim:] different horses. [speaker001:] No. We don't [Hugh:] It's in it's it's internal [Roger:] Internal. It's internal. We look at that the annual report [Hugh:] We. We agreed to twenty five didn't we? Now [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] if if you think that's too few [Trevor:] I I I don't think it needs to go to anybody other than Peter really. Do you? [Hugh:] I think it's Peter [Terry:] It's Peter [Hugh:] and John. [Terry:] I think twenty five is too few really. [Trevor:] Thirty. [Terry:] Well. I for you [Trevor:] And we can always print a few more up Terry there's no [Hugh:] To you my boy. [Roger:] We're doing it ourselves yeah. [Terry:] I need seven. [Hugh:] Seven. [Terry:] Seven I need. [Jim:] Three. [Hugh:] Seven.... [Roger:] [whispering] One. Three. Six []. [Dave:] One. [Roger:] Nine. Erm nine. [speaker001:] Four. [Hugh:] Shall we go for fifty? As Terry says? Let's go for fifty. Okay. Right. Let's get back to the [Trevor:] Right. I'm printing that. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Let's get back to this this other document. This, we're all agreed that it's a marketing exercise and what we're trying to do is to get across to our clients, what we have to offer to them. [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] And how are we gonna do that? We're gonna use this one or two sheets of A four. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Jim's got a fairly clear idea of what he wants to do for BES. Er [Dave:] I think Terry just wants to expand on it. Don't you? I mean y you want what Jim wants but you want another one [Terry:] That's right. And I'm happy to general background like I've got so many staff. Some are professionally qualified, some are technically qualified. We're experts in surveying work. We've got Auto-Canon, that general sort of build up. [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] Erm but then I think we need er I I was hoping we were going that step further [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] in producing [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] individual project sheets. [Trevor:] Ah. But every project sheet that we produce you're looking at two or three hundred pounds for each sheet. That that that's the only drawback. And if Jim's got some some new form of escalator that he wants to er sell to the customers, or or or whatever,th then [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] we will produce those for that purpose. [Jim:] You see if you're selling in a magazine or on television or anywhere, you don't talk about what you've done, other than to if you like exaggerate the point. What y you're selling something different to them aren't you? [speaker001:] Mm. [Jim:] If some new technology comes on line for BES, then I can scare clients into having t to give us work like under the Health and Safety legislation. Then that's what I want to do. That's what I want to use it for. [Roger:] Why are you looking at York [Terry:] But surely [Roger:] and not somewhere else? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Roger:] Absolutely. [Terry:] but sure but but but surely there is also a lot to be said for I I mean you don't go and buy a V W Golf G T I just because somebody says they make one and wouldn't it be good to have one? You go there because you've seen somebody else has got one. And how good the quality is. [Roger:] The what? [Terry:] So you're looking at [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] The car []. [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] the car. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] So you're actually looking at the quality of the product that this particular [Dave:] Mm. [Terry:] erm department is offering you. [speaker001:] [cough] [Roger:] That's why that you can't get I I appreciate exactly what Jim's saying. Yes. We can do this and nobody else can. That's great. But you've also gotta say, and by the way this is one we did earlier. [Jim:] Oh. That's what I mean you you use those as examples [Terry:] Yeah. [Jim:] to back up the main point you're making which is [Hugh:] I mean that's not a [Jim:] w [Hugh:] Sorry. The the sort of thing that that I would be if I were in running your function Terry, would be to say, look at this package that we've developed for P T E stations. [Terry:] That's right. Yeah. [Hugh:] And here are some examples of what we've done. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] We can give you the following. [Terry:] That's right. [Hugh:] Standard timber platforms. Standard platforms. [Terry:] . Yes. [Hugh:] Your [Terry:] Exactly. [Hugh:] standard [Terry:] Yeah. And have a sheet on that, [Dennis:] Absolutely. [Terry:] with estimated costs of the an and an exact [Hugh:] Costs. And how cost-effective it is. How how [Roger:] Yeah. [Hugh:] speedy it is to. [Roger:] I'm only talking about having something like four sheets for the, in total. I I I appreciate your point about cost but I'm [Terry:] four or six sheets at any one time [speaker001:] Yeah. [Terry:] forming part of [Jim:] Yeah. But the i [Hugh:] Can I make just a suggestion? [Jim:] the idea was to launch this wasn't it? Under you know some sort of little bit of bullshit if you like saying [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] th this is the first of... many updates, [Trevor:] Yes. [Dave:] Right. [Jim:] that you'll receive from the various functions. [Terry:] Now [Jim:] Okay. I would like, sort of have mine headed, Building Engineering Services Update [Terry:] Yeah. [Jim:] so that the client can see that you're keeping it up to date. [Terry:] Well. I think that I'm happy to do that. But the only query that Trevor's put in my mind is the fact that he's saying that the cost is gonna be extortionate. [Trevor:] No. No. No. No. What I was saying was Don't [Jim:] Very very careful what you say it because it's very expensive. [Trevor:] What I'm saying Terry is, [Jim:] It is. [Trevor:] if we've given ourselves a budget of four thousand pounds and we've ear [Terry:] No. That's [Trevor:] and we've earmarked that at the moment. [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] And we're going to print [Hugh:] Mhm. [Trevor:] an annual report internally at virtually no cost [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] let's decide if we're going to produce a glossy sheet for each job, or a glossy sheet for each erm future update [Terry:] Or package. [Dave:] Yes. [Trevor:] to custom whatever. Then we've got to decide how much we're prepared to spend on that an and when we're gonna spend it. That's all. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] A a and there is a real cost, a proper cost not just a erm an internal cost for preparing these. [Dave:] But you're not talking about every job are you? [Terry:] No. No. No. Prestigious jobs [Hugh:] Mm. [Dave:] Right. [Terry:] which might not be at year end for example. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I'm I'm supportive of what... Trevor says. If if we do a special... works job or a special bridges job that we feel we've done particularly well, then we can produce for that job [Terry:] The loose sheet. [Hugh:] the sheet. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] And I think it'll be wonderful. [Trevor:] And on a major project like that it might be sensible to bill that sort of thing into the fees at the at the outset. [Hugh:] Indeed. [Trevor:] because the client's gonna get the kudos of it. So we might as well er er [Hugh:] Get paid for it. [Trevor:] get paid for it. Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Terry:] I mean a classic is [Trevor:] Then it costs you to say [Terry:] Knot Knottingley steelwork. Is a definite there. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] We're gonna do one on that. But at we're gonna also add, on the sort of general description amount we give structural advice on any sort of project. [Hugh:] That [Terry:] Like Leeds City Station. [Hugh:] Great. [Terry:] Waiting shelters. [Hugh:] If if you chose Knottingley [Terry:] Bradford Foster Square? [Hugh:] the sensible thing would be [Dave:] Mm. To have a combined one. [Hugh:] for me for the C E D G to have a combined BES Works [Terry:] There may be some [Hugh:] presentation. [Terry:] that can be combined. There may be some that can be combined to save money. [Trevor:] That's right. [Hugh:] I mean Knottingley is perfect. [Terry:] Oh. Yeah. [Hugh:] An and I mean what are we trying to say? We're trying to say, we can provide you [Terry:] A package. [Hugh:] with a comprehensive package. [Roger:] Mm. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] And lose money [LAUGHTER] at the same time []. [Hugh:] And they don't need to know that. [Dave:] Not necessarily. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] It was a laugh. It was an exercise [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] But these this is a [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Not [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Hugh:] Right. [speaker001:] Right. [Hugh:] Lie it down. [Trevor:] I'm happy with that. I take it that we're not, that that's gonna be the second phase then? [Dave:] Mm. [Trevor:] We get this bit out first [Terry:] Well [Trevor:] and and then we come back with this second phase. [Terry:] Well. Yes. But I possibly the point I mean we can't afford it to look to drag on too long. We need to set a timescale on it. [Hugh:] Ri w with Terry and Jim and the first ones and a a and and and agree them and say, yeah. That's ex that is exactly what [speaker001:] That's right. [Hugh:] we want. And then Terry and er sorry Roger and Norman and erm... David can... [Terry:] Now [Hugh:] work from that. [Terry:] what it would be interesting to would be to using the [Hugh:] What do you mean? [Terry:] using the [Jim:] Mm. [Terry:] cross rail tender type of document would be to have a standard three or four sheets that were relative to the whole group. I I know you you know you have a specific BES one when it goes [Jim:] Mm. [Terry:] out [Jim:] gotta be [Hugh:] A group one. [Jim:] er in case you didn't know [Terry:] That's right. Yeah. [Jim:] this is who we are. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [Trevor:] the key items [Jim:] Absolutely. [Trevor:] a a a sorry. Th th [Hugh:] Sorry Trevor. [Trevor:] the skills and facilities that we [speaker001:] Yeah. [Trevor:] that we have. [Terry:] I E the C V type of stuff. [Jim:] And you'd want one to tell them about [Roger:] CAD [Jim:] for example. [Terry:] Yes. That we've got X machines and systems interactive [Jim:] You know you didn't know before but now we have we have if you like. We know can do anything on CAD for you. [Hugh:] Intergraph, Autocad, MOSS [Jim:] I mean they didn't know that do they? [Terry:] Superstress [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] P G D, C B D. [Jim:] And then there are subjects like that which are non project specific but which are [Terry:] That's right. Yes. [Jim:] important. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Jim:] Exactly [Hugh:] So. This is useful. Erm so what are our main messages in this document? To help... [Roger:] Comprehensive service is surely number one? [Hugh:] Right. [Roger:] The fact we can offer [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] comprehensive engineering service [Hugh:] Expertise. Comprehensive service.... [Roger:] High quality finished product. Look at these photos.... [Hugh:] Experience of working in r er er a railway environment and minimizing disruption to the [Terry:] A wide rang a wide range of clients. [Dave:] Safety. [Terry:] Safety. [speaker001:] S... [Jim:] We must tell them something about our staff as well. [Terry:] Yeah. That was e I thought that was in expertise [Hugh:] Mhm. [Terry:] but perhaps that's not quite [Hugh:] Yeah. CAD. Yeah. Er professionalism of staff.... [whispering] I'm gonna have to pop out for a moment []. [Terry:] [whispering] That's a point []. That's that's enough to start isn't it? [Roger:] Mm. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] too [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] long-winded. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Excuse me for a moment. [Jim:] Well yeah. And you want, well I mean, each A four sheet needs to be on a particular subject. [speaker001:] Mm.... [Jim:] Doesn't it? I mean you know some people will be particularly interested to read about what we're doing with CAD. Well the same message one side. [Terry:] Yeah. [Jim:] You know. [Terry:] Up to date with CONDAM regs... [Trevor:] Condom regs [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] think of him he's a world expert on CONDAM everything [Terry:] CONDAM regs. [Trevor:] Oh CONDAM regs. I thought you were gonna say [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] It's like this set of golf clubs he wants. You know that he buys because everybody else does. [Terry:] No. The ones I've got very hot. [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] His golf cl He, he's I thought he was [Dave:] Taking [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] A whole hour off. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Did you hear that Norman? Yes. [Jim:] Jim too. [Terry:] We wer we weren't gonna mention that. [Trevor:] Ah. [Dave:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] No. No. Only at one hole. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Only at one hole.... [speaker001:] Mm. Tt. Yeah.... [Trevor:] Yeah. Normally we'd be talking about him but because the tape recorder's on [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Switch it o switch it in on again now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Let's hope you know er Hughie doesn't listen to that bit. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] That's all is it? Right. Thank you. [LAUGHTER] Whoopee.... [Trevor:] Right? First of June we talked about didn't we, to get [Hugh:] Yes. We did. [Trevor:] ? [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Right?... [Terry:] That's for this? That's for this, yes. [Trevor:] Not for the annual report. No. [speaker001:] No. No. [Hugh:] Who's in the initiative? [speaker001:] Goodness me..... [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] Well Jim and I are to start with to get the er [Hugh:] track. [Trevor:] Are we? Are we gonna [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] W Can we? [Trevor:] firm up on partner's design? Do you want us to go to other graphics firms for alternative quotes? Alternative designs? I mean at the end of the day it becomes subjective, like choosing wallpaper. [Hugh:] Mm. It looks I I I think what they've produced is pretty good. I would say that to we should give you a bit of freedom in terms of price, therefore I think we should er allow you to spend up to say five thousand pounds? [Trevor:] Right.... [Hugh:] Erm... it it doesn't er er a from what I know of the the Swindon one, five thousand pounds seems very fair. [Jim:] Yes. They paid a lot more than. [Roger:] Mm. [speaker001:] return them. [Jim:] Yeah. [Roger:] It is quite out of [Trevor:] It is five [Roger:] date now. [Trevor:] It is five percent of our expenditure budget for this year of course. For our you know [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] Sorry. It's five Ks less lighting improvement, carpeting [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] But you work on you work on the principle [LAUGHTER] that you'll only get that back and more []. If you don't the whole thing [Hugh:] Yes. Is a waste of time? [Jim:] is a waste of time isn't it? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes I agree. Mm. [Trevor:] I agree. [Jim:] Any advertising's gotta cover itself. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Mm. [Nola:] Is it part of the Intercity trademark that the silver swallow has to go to to right-hand up to [speaker001:] Mm. [Nola:] the [speaker001:] Er [Nola:] a wire which is? [Jim:] It has to be a certain size it has be flying [Nola:] Yeah. [Jim:] at a certain speed [Nola:] Cos that's important. That swallow while it's not [Terry:] We haven't discussed that in great detail. [speaker001:] By the way [Trevor:] . Yeah. But we we will make sure it's in the right place. [Terry:] The slight sna the slight snag is it says Intercity. [Nola:] Well. Yeah. [Terry:] We've had this argument before. [Hugh:] Well unfortu sorry. [Terry:] A a and if it says Intercity it then it then it really ought to be maroon or the [Jim:] that's corporate. You can have the [Terry:] No.. That's corporate. [Jim:] You can have the [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] that corporate standards would apply there. [Hugh:] Look. Whether we like it or not [Trevor:] You can have the choice you [Hugh:] we we are [Trevor:] can have [Hugh:] we are owned by Intercity and and and that is what we're selling at the moment. Okay? [Terry:] Not for long though. [Hugh:] Well for two years. [Jim:] But we're we're that's the most prestigious subsidiary of British Rail that's what [Hugh:] It is indeed. [Jim:] we're selling. [Terry:] Right. Okay.... [Jim:] I wouldn't like to have the British Railways [Hugh:] I'd go along with that. [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] But don't tell them. [Hugh:] Or Railfreight Distribution. [Terry:] So I suppose you're fairly happy with your fif fifteen point nine [Hugh:] I'll tell you what I'd rather be Intercity than Central Services in terms of the market we've got. [Jim:] . No problem. [Roger:] Have you seen the civil engineer of Railfreight Distribution? [speaker001:] No. [Hugh:] Oh yes! John [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] Ah no. No. No. He's [] [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] I can't []. [Roger:] I just couldn't believe it. [Trevor:] ? [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] Oh god. [Hugh:] Right. [speaker001:] Ah.... [Hugh:] Very good. So you've got five [LAUGHTER] thousand pounds [] [Roger:] I mean whether [speaker001:] Right. [Roger:] he takes his friend to work I don't know. [Trevor:] Nigel's going to be turning in his grave. [Hugh:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Five thousand pounds [] to spend [Nola:] I'm lost. [Hugh:] an and we're gonna get it out by the first of June. [Roger:] You know that? Do you remember? [speaker001:] Right. [Nola:] Really? [Hugh:] Mm. [Nola:] Out by the first of June? [Hugh:] That's our target date. [Jim:] Right. [speaker001:] Good [Hugh:] Trevor and Jim are gonna produce the first [Nola:] How? [Hugh:] the first sheets er and in the meantime, I mean I'm hoping that Roger and Norman and Dave are at least putting something together, [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] so that when the first sheets are produced it's just a matter of saying, oh, yeah, I'll edit this now in that sort of format. [Trevor:] I mean if you could... You know what we're looking for now. We're looking for about two big paragraphs or so plus some photographs, to go onto one of these. So if you could precis or select from the text that you've already prepared for the annual report, something that will go in there that says why your functions are [Terry:] Brilliant. [Trevor:] the best thing on B R for that particular discipline. Then er it it's only gonna be a case then of knocking it into the same style for all [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] seven sheets.... Great. [Roger:] If we say fifty percent [Hugh:] Good. [Roger:] no more than fifty percent photos in those two... sides? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yeah. You can have the the the [Roger:] the general? [Trevor:] A [Hugh:] Have a two, two or three photographs. [Trevor:] Up up up up to three photographs. Er two on one side one on the other one [Nola:] Well you you said one A four sheet now you're saying it's double-sided. [Trevor:] Oh it's certainly double-sided. Double-sided glossy [Nola:] That's [speaker001:] Mm. [Nola:] two.... [Terry:] No. It's one double-sided. [Hugh:] It's the one double-sided. [Trevor:] It's an A four sheet doubled-sided [speaker001:] Mm.... [Trevor:] up to three colour photographs per function. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] But [Hugh:] And I and I would also say that if if for example Roger felt that he couldn't get... all of the message that he wanted on there that we would consider two. [Nola:] Selling him some space from your space David. [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Oh but why? [speaker001:] colour photos. [Hugh:] Alright. If Terry does. [Terry:] I'm happy with that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Not BES though. [Hugh:] I know that's gonna push the the the cost up [Trevor:] No. I'm I'm I'm I'm easy. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] If you, all I don't want us to do is to start drifting into the second exercise as part of this first exercise which sounds very much [Hugh:] Alright. [Trevor:] you're starting to talk projects rather than [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Yeah. I [Trevor:] er rather than function. [Hugh:] I just I I just feel at this stage I just don't wanna constrain people so much that [Trevor:] Alright. [Hugh:] we that we don't get any value out of it. I mean maybe if Roger came up and said, well, I want five, then clearly we would say, come off it Roger. Let's have a look. But I'd rather I'd rather he presented us with five that we could then reduce to two, [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] than [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] than have to constrain himself to one and and and there's just no m content there. Are you with me? [Jim:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Because then we could make a conscious decision as as a management team, as to whether we were gonna increase the price to five thousand five hundred or six thousand [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and get so much more value out of it.... [Jim:] And then of course there needs to be a a budget for the rest of the year doesn't there? [Hugh:] Yes there does. [speaker001:] Yes. [Hugh:] For... for presenting projects. Good.... [Trevor:] Right.... [Hugh:] Next item. Project safety training for project engineers. Now then. This has come about... as a result of, well no. It it had been on the agenda before. And if you remember in the past, we agreed that we would send either one or two people on the... project management safety courses that were being run by Vic. Or had been organized by Vic.... And somebody was gonna go and review the relevance to this organization, so that we could determine what we did about it. [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] And our feeling, if if my memory serves me right, was that we felt that our site safety courses were adequate and gave... [Terry:] Correct. [Hugh:] a reasonable training. Right. So that was [Roger:] Plus all our other courses. [Terry:] Yes. [Hugh:] That's right. [Terry:] We thought we had enough expertise with our our in-house training, without having to go on a separate one thousand five hundred pounds project management course. [Hugh:] Right. Since then Jim who manages the project engineer course, has spoken to Trevor, and also since then we've had er contact from Regional Railways our major client, who have actually said that they require us to have this expertise.... With regard to [Jim:] Leeds North West. [Roger:] No. [Hugh:] projects which they will select.... Over to Trevor. [Trevor:] Jim is coming to see me on the fourth of May. Is that Tuesday? [Dave:] Yes. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Erm and Hugh has changed his diary so that erm... he can see Jim as well. And it would be helpful, I know it's short notice, but if erm... those of you from the erm tt er design function groups who will interface with the project engineers, I E bridge works, BES and and P Way, if you could also attend it i if if it would be possible. I mean we're only talking about half an hour or so er at some time around about eleven o'clock on Tuesday morning. Jim's very convincing about the th the difference between this course and the sort of courses that erm... er that we... have actually run, and and erm automatically include in our training for our our staff. I mean Jim's a civil engineer himself and he knows the skills and disciplines that that that we work to.... He points out that this safety exercise is about assessing risk where one set of circumstances might be alright within that particular discipline, but when you actually put that along the side of a similar sort of marginal safe systems, that are in other disciplines, er th that you might end up with a conflict or or or highlighting some form of erm er permutation, that could end up in in what satisfies all the codes and regulations and blue books and whatever, but at the end of can do this and nobody else can. That's great. But you've also got that that that you notice well down the erm the expenditure on a project, that you're gonna have to have to go back and change something that should have been sorted out at the start. [Roger:] Does he give examples? [Hugh:] Yeah. But they're not very good. [Trevor:] He does but they're not very good as far as we're concerned. He he gives examples of level crossings that might be perfectly alright as erm automatic half barriers in their own right, as far as er signalling constraint, and as far as siting constraint. But when you actually put them all together, and and recognize the traffic flows, and the location of the nearby school and the shopping centre and on one or two other things, that at the end of the day this perhaps is a site where... tt er full barriers and and C C T V might be more appropriate. Other cent o o other jobs where [Roger:] what you're doing. What you're [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] I I don't [Trevor:] Yes. It's project engineering Roger but it's actually saying that the project manager needs to be trained to to ferret out certain information. [Terry:] The project manager? [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] Yeah. I'm happy with that. [Trevor:] And that the people that are s that the people that are supporting the project manager also ought to be encouraged not to just to keep their blinkers on, and work within their own discipline, and say, I've nothing to worry about, I work to the blue book, I work to the code of practice, I work to the British Standard. But they ought to be encouraged to look over the fence at at er [Roger:] Well I hope they do because you end up with the wrong bloody solution if you just go at it like that. You put the wrong bloody bridge in if you forget the implications on track or everything else. [Trevor:] So what what they're actually saying is that here is a formal training that will make sure that everybody at the, who goes on this course, comes away with a measure of having achieved those skills because th the course itself is formed of two parts. Two days on the Health and Safety at Work Act, which we can probably do without, because if we can pass the exam before we go on the course then we don't need to do those first two days. The other three days are on this erm lateral thinking risk assessment type of erm [Terry:] Project safety [Trevor:] project safety plans. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] And [Terry:] Cos we're already producing those. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] We are but we've never been formally trained in them.... And Jim genuinely feels, oh and again that element is examinable. Then at the end of the day you've actually something to say, yes. This person has got these skills to carry out this. And that would sit quite well with our quality systems. [Hugh:] True. [Trevor:] So it depends on at what level we decide to train this down to. [Hugh:] Mm. From the client [Trevor:] We'd certainly be s [speaker001:] Sorry. [Hugh:] We don't s we don't see the a a vast number of our staff being trained in this way. At fifteen hundred pounds a time. From the client's point of view Regional Railways were quite adamant that erm if we didn't do it then they would find somebody who was prepared to. Provide that service. [Trevor:] What about [Hugh:] So [Trevor:] my arguments? One of my arguments for doing it [Terry:] Come off it. Pull the other one. [Trevor:] one of my arguments for [Hugh:] Hang on. [Trevor:] doing it Roger is that we sit here and we say to our clients, ah but you really ought to be coming to us because we're railway experts. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] You shouldn't go to other consultants because they're not as good as us. They don't have the special skills and training that you need to carry out working within the railway environment. And then once some specialist railway training comes along, we're arguing that we don't need it. [speaker001:] . Right. [Roger:] No. We're only arguing [Hugh:] Can I [Roger:] we don't need it because w we we're confused A, as to how this suddenly gets [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] er slung on us from another department. Er and B, that surely a lot of it is covered in our training already. That we're not saying, [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] you know, we shouldn't be training railway safety we're wondering [Trevor:] You actually? [Roger:] how this clashes with everything else that we've been doing. [Hugh:] Yes. Well we'll not, we'll not know that until we've actually sent somebody on it, which is what we what [Terry:] Well could I just something? [Hugh:] we agreed to do something like six months ago. [Roger:] Because you can't get the course. [Terry:] Well I've spoken to Keith and Kim from B-TEC about some of this and er things are not as clear-cut as people are perhaps making out. [speaker001:] Right. [Terry:] I can understand some of the exclusivity it would give us by our undertaking [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] this course. But it's a hell of a lot of money. [Hugh:] It is. [Trevor:] And are talking about I think more than just a few people erm therefore the s [Terry:] It's non it's non fee earning work. There's a loss of the work whilst they go on the course fifteen thousand [Roger:] That's that's [Terry:] quid and [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] at the moment the only source it's come from is directed projects. [Hugh:] Correct. [speaker001:] Yes. [Terry:] It's not come from anywhere else it's not a group standard [Trevor:] Yeah. [Roger:] directed and [Hugh:] The only, the only thing is Terry that that the directed projects has done a bloody good selling exercise because he's convinced these people that everybody should do it. [Terry:] Well remember though but the problem is with project managers didn't have any [Roger:] Training at all. [Terry:] training. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] True. [Terry:] That's where you started from. [Trevor:] Can I just say that I [Terry:] I've not quite finished Trevor. The other thing is under the CONDAM regulations, the responsibility for arranging the right quality of staff in terms of providing resources, in terms of time and finance, lies with the client. Therefore if Regional Railways wants us to do it, I think we have, there is some merit in us going back to them and saying, yes, we'll do it. If it's Leeds North West project, we'll charge it to that project. [Trevor:] No. [Terry:] Well I'm I'm sorry but that is what the CONDAM regulations say. [Trevor:] That's like employing a bricklayer and then going down to Barnitts and buying his tools for him. I think that's absolutely ridiculous [Hugh:] Hear hear. [Terry:] No. But I'm sorry but the CONDAM regulations lay the health and safety plans and risk assessment out in exactly that format. The client can't li s stand back and say, it's all up to you to do it. [Roger:] There's a [Terry:] acceptable. [Roger:] there's a lovely paragraph in Aiden er covering note to the submission for Leeds North West. And this paragraph's is something to the effect that your, here is the erm tt the estimate of our work and we're seeking authority. If other safety er implications or safety requirements er impinge on this project then these will be funded by me. [Terry:] Correct. And that's regulations say they must fund [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] them. [Hugh:] Can I can I just focus your mind on two things gents? If you w u unfortunately we didn't look at the financial commentary as the first item. If we had done, you would see that s s still something like forty five percent of our work is for Regional Railways. [speaker001:] Oh aye. [Hugh:] You would see that something like thirty percent of our work is at Leeds North West electrification.... From the meeting that m that Trevor and I had with Keith the other day, erm Keith is actually working in support of us to try and m maintain us working for them in the future. Against great adversity. [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] The point I'm gon I'm I'm coming to is this, that we have with regard to Regional Railways work, forty five percent of our workload which I see is at [speaker001:] [cough] [Hugh:] extreme risk. Now there's no way I'm gonna talk to tha he they are our major client. It's extremely risky that we could lose all of that work over the next four months. In my humble opinion if we can find a formula round this table for... satisfying them, and that's, I mean that's who we're trying to satisfy. They're the ones who are saying, Look. These courses are on o o on the go. We want your people to be trained in them. There's no way I'm gonna turn round to them and say, Get stuffed. I want to retain that work. For us to retain that work we are gonna have to bend over backwards to do what Regional Railways want. So I think what we should [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Hugh:] be doing, us at the management team here, is saying, look, we know we're gonna have trou we want to please the client. How do we please the client? And do we do it within the financial [Terry:] . How do you recover your money? [Hugh:] constraints that we have? [Terry:] Well how do you recover your money? [Trevor:] Can we just [Hugh:] Well [Trevor:] look at the money for a moment because if you look, when we come to look at the financial commentary, we will be going down the erm er what we spent our training budget on [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] last year. A and perhaps instead of employing Mr last year er as we did last year to do management development, this year we could have er safety development as being [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] the focus for our training. [Hugh:] We spent a lot of money on MOSS training last year because it was necessary. [Trevor:] We will be s spending more money on MOSS [Roger:] S say s [Trevor:] training and more money [Hugh:] Certainly. [Trevor:] on CAD training. [Roger:] But why is it fifteen hundred pounds? [Hugh:] Quite. [Trevor:] Erm [Roger:] And how do we know Intercity aren't gonna come along and demand a different course? [Trevor:] Roger th that that's one of the reasons [Roger:] Yeah. [Trevor:] for me meeting with Jim was to say, yes, that's fine but if at the end of the day we have to train down to a certain level within our group, there's no way can we afford five man-days of lost fees and fifteen hundred pounds. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] How could we get it down? Could we have it in York? Could we have it non-residential? Could we have it We've got so many people could you come up here and do [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] a three day training course. And we will sort out the health and safety elements with in-house training, and we'll run the erm er the examinations ourselves type of thing. And all those sort of things are available to us... if we want to develop it. But what we've got to decide first is, whether we're gonna do it and if so at what level? If we were gonna say, right, this only is gonna apply to mega- projects, tt and therefore it would be appropriate for the project coordinator to be the person to sit down at the start of the job, when he's agreeing the remit with the client, when he's developing the erm tt er who's doing what within the functions. If it's appropriate for him to sit down there with the project manager, then we haven't got a problem. Because we will only have erm less than a dozen project coordinators at [Terry:] No. It's not it's not on that level. The project quality plan is produced by the project engineer looking after the job, and that is not the project coordinator.... It's a much lower level? Er I might also say, on open access which is something that I was at a meeting for yesterday in London. Is that you you must give in our tender documents, we must tell the contractor what he has to allow for in his price. And that will be, attending P T S training courses and at and having medicals. Cos that allows him to the cost? And that fits [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] quite well within [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] CONDAM regulations. Now in some respects what I think should happen, is we should, yeah we should not be negative about going on the course, but in terms of the financial implications I'm very worried about that and I think there is a erm, there is some need for the client to say, that if he wants us to go on this course we're happy to go on it, but that he should look seriously at financing and he plus it should have been in the tender document. In thi in a normal contractual situation, if the client [speaker001:] Yeah. [Terry:] turns round to you half way through the job and says by the way you must do this. It's a V O situation. [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] Now [Hugh:] Yeah. Right. [Trevor:] I I'm not trying to be a I'm not trying to be obstructive I'm just trying to get [Hugh:] No. No. [Terry:] the responsibility where it [Hugh:] Terry. I I [Terry:] rests as a shared one it's not just ours. [Hugh:] I I don't dispute anything that say there, but what I would suggest is that if we do this, if we actually train up, pay for a number of our staff to be trained, we have a unique selling point. [Terry:] Yeah. I couldn't agree more. [Trevor:] And it down our vision aims doesn't it? [Hugh:] It does indeed. It gives it gives it gives us a strength [Terry:] Well I [Hugh:] over I mean let us let us let us [Terry:] Why have we changed our minds though? We said we said at the start of this that we did enough training. [Trevor:] I don't think we do. [Roger:] Well how does this fit in to C stage? [Terry:] Well how do you know? How do you know? [Roger:] We the I R S E? How does it fit into that? This is what puzzles me. [Terry:] did [Hugh:] Can I can I give you a scenario? [Terry:] say it would start ju just re recap [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] We did say at the discussion, that we did a four and a half day or a five day construction site safety [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] course. We train our people in C S S [Trevor:] Well that's construction safety isn't it? That's nothing to do with whether [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] or not w w we should be having a bridge or a [Terry:] I'm sorry because [Trevor:] or or a er er a level crossing or a s a a erm a. [Terry:] But Trevor I thought the consensus at the start [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] of this discussion was the fact that we had, and it was, certainly was the last time we talked about it because that's why we only sent one person on it. To find out to find out [Hugh:] Well we haven't sent anybody yet as far as I know. [Terry:] I thought it was Steve been on it? [Trevor:] No. [Terry:] Oh right. Well I thought we we had decided that unless there was any added benefit to it, we weren't actually gonna attend. There was no point in sending your staff. [Trevor:] Yeah but we're talking round this. [Hugh:] We are. [Trevor:] Can I sug can I ask if [speaker001:] But we're doing project safety now and it's working. [Trevor:] the four the four people at this end of the table would be prepar five people at this end of the table would be available [Hugh:] To talk to Jim. [Trevor:] to talk to Jim on Monday er [Terry:] By all means. [Trevor:] on Tuesday? [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. By all means. [Roger:] Well I'm not here but I'll [Terry:] If he's in. Fourteenth? [Hugh:] You see I I, can I just? I [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] agree with that. I I would like as many of the... front line people as possible to meet with Jim so that we can a a the objective of which will be for Jim to tell us what the content of his course is, so we can assess where whether there are gaps in our training. Two, to see whether we can knock down the price and whether we can get him to come up here in the same way as Doctor does and do it that way to reduce the costs. Erm and I think that's basically it isn't it? [Trevor:] That's it. Er and I'm sure that h he's quite happy to do that that second item. Erm he does say in the course that residential is better because i it does tend to be a very intensive erm course. You're working up till midnight on a couple of days. [Jim:] They're not good courses. [Trevor:] If we make it non-residential the money that we save on on on the residential bit we could perhaps say, right then we'll do that bit in four days. We'll we'll we'll do a potted health and safety ourselves. Er er and we'll run the other bit non-residential over four days [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] perhaps finishing at six [Roger:] But [Trevor:] o'clock or whatever. [Hugh:] Right. So Roger, Jim, Terry, Trev, Norman and myself'll meet Jim on [Roger:] Well I'm not here so I'll have to send down [Nola:] So you're saying it's Tuesday afternoon [Terry:] Fourteenth? [Roger:] What time is it? [Nola:] at four. [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] It's at four [Terry:] Fourteenth? [Hugh:] It's at four. [Trevor:] No. The fourth. [Terry:] Oh. The fourth. [Roger:] At what time? [Trevor:] A about eleven o'clock. He's coming [Hugh:] In my office. [Trevor:] He's coming [speaker001:] Here? [Hugh:] Yes. [Trevor:] Yes. He's coming from Edinburgh. Hugh and I have got a meeting at ten which will be clear by eleven. Erm h he's got a, he's coming down from Edinburgh and he wants to call in and see me about something and I don't know what because I've only spoken to his secretary. But I think that if we can grab him just for half and hour [speaker001:] Great. [Trevor:] and let him er e explain. [Hugh:] You see gents what we've got to be aware of is, if Glasgow and Birmingham for example [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [Hugh:] buy into this and we don't [Trevor:] And they will. [Hugh:] I think so. [Trevor:] Well Birmingham certainly will cos it's the sort of thing they like doing. [Hugh:] Where does that leave us? Because [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I I be under [Trevor:] work. [Hugh:] be under no illusions gentlemen that er Keith is under a lot of pressure to put his work to Birmingham and Glasgow, and not to York. [Terry:] Mm. But we know why they're [Trevor:] not gonna do it don't they? It doesn't make financial sense. [Hugh:] Yeah. But I mean Keith Keith is actually sticking his neck out on our behalf. [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] Yes. I'm aware of that. [Hugh:] And and as I said the work is at risk and and don't kid yourself it ain't. [Terry:] No. [Hugh:] Because it is. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Ah. But Peter Peter Peter [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] and and [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and erm Richard are determined that the work will be done in-house by Regional Railways. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Terry:] if that happens we've got to market Intercity a lot harder than they are and take and take the work off Birmingham, that they're doing that they shouldn't be doing. Cos they're still doing a hell of a lot of our [speaker001:] Yes. [Terry:] work. [Trevor:] Yeah. We we've [Hugh:] the subject. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] The point I was making was that that we we need every [Terry:] We don't want to [Hugh:] unique selling point we can to be able to convince c er our clients that they should come to us rather than somebody else. And if you actually remove a unique selling point and hand it over to one of your competitors that to me is not good business. [Terry:] No. [Jim:] And for the future i it is useful to have qualified staff so that whether they be technically qualified [Hugh:] It's essential. it? [Jim:] academically [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jim:] qualified. Safety [Trevor:] I I I can [Jim:] qualified. [Trevor:] I can believe they won't complement our [Roger:] I can't believe [Trevor:] our site safety er [Hugh:] Cos I can't see that they'll have the expertise that we have in our site construction safety courses. And I'm sure they'll have a different expertise. [Jim:] Another example you see [Hugh:] Sorry Trevor. [Jim:] I've just chap, one of my chaps has just come back off a three days, confined spaces, responsible person course. [Trevor:] Yeah. So it's [Jim:] I mean I've I've debriefed him and there is a heck of a lot more to confined spaces [Terry:] Yeah. [Jim:] than he ever thought. [Trevor:] Yes. [Jim:] And [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] indeed he he now is a tremendous asset to us. [speaker001:] Yes. [Trevor:] And yet and yet [Roger:] Aha so is he [Jim:] legally [Roger:] good enough for the whole group? [Jim:] Well he is that's why we [Hugh:] We don't need everybody to go on that [Terry:] We've got [Nola:] and Steve. [Terry:] Granville and Steve. We've got three. [Nola:] Mm. [Terry:] We agreed that.... [Hugh:] You should have somebody in your office [Nola:] Mm. [Hugh:] I think Roger. [Terry:] But actually the first part of it is just the same as the confined space [Roger:] Very rare. [Terry:] authorized. [Trevor:] Very rare if Roger goes in. [Hugh:] any of us to go into confined spaces. [Roger:] . No. [Trevor:] Hugh's people go [speaker001:] Not there [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] Wait a minute, you see that's the problem. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []. Yeah. [Jim:] the chap that I sent he thought he knew what a confined space was. He came back and he said, nearly everywhere we work we're working in confined spaces. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Jim:] Places where we never thought were confined spaces. [Terry:] I should have my office bigger. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] But you're still working on it aren't you []? [Terry:] Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] All you need is an accident. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jim:] and then the law would tell you where you're going wrong. And that's the problem with safety isn't it? [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jim:] The traffic lights syndrome. [Trevor:] Yeah.... [Jim:] And the more qualified you are on safety the more prepared you are [Terry:] I think the only thing to bear in mind is that we a little bit careful w with the changing environment we're working in that it, with it only being pushed forward by direct projects if if nobody else wants it we could be wasting some of our money. [Trevor:] I Yeah. [Hugh:] Terry the way this came about is that one of our clients is saying he wants us to do it. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] That that was how it's come about. I mean we have the [Terry:] Well ju but at the moment just for Leeds North West as far as I'm aware. [Trevor:] No. [Roger:] No. He said for any project [Trevor:] No. [Roger:] in the future. [Trevor:] Any project. [Roger:] B but the fact the pro the safety strategy for Leeds North West is not yet written, is rather ironical. [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] For the project's you know [Hugh:] Mm.... Okay. [speaker001:] Tt right. [Roger:] Not issued anyway. [Hugh:] So we'll see Jim and then we will decide on a strategy for [Trevor:] Presume we we should also write to Peter and ask him if he's got any spare safety money to er [Hugh:] Well our o our is three stage pron proje [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] process. We we see Jim, we decide amongst ourselves whether we have the need, and I think I mean I I believe we do anyhow. Er we evaluate the need and how many people want to go on it, we evaluate what it's gonna cost and then we see if we can get money through the the safety... budget... that director safety holds. [speaker001:] [whispering] Yes []. [Hugh:] And then away we go. [speaker001:] [whispering] Right []. [Trevor:] Mm. [speaker001:] Good. [Hugh:] Reasonable? [Trevor:] Mm.... [Hugh:] C D G Scarborough conference update. Trevor again. [Trevor:] We've fixed the dates for erm Scarborough er er as we'd previously er talked about. It's er [Terry:] You've forgotten haven't you? [Trevor:] nineteenth, twentieth, twenty first of [Terry:] Correct. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Jim:] Nineteenth, twentieth, [Trevor:] Er we've fixed the hotel and Nola's got a [Nola:] N no I haven't. [Trevor:] Ah. Well I forgot the name of it er the Nichol St Nicholas? [Nola:] Nicholas. Nicholas [Dave:] St Nicholas. [Trevor:] St Nicholas it's got a [Terry:] massive [Trevor:] It's [Hugh:] Swimming pool has it? [Trevor:] It's got a nice little swimming pool although evidently it looks really nice on the photograph because it looks like a big rectangular one. It's actually [Hugh:] Three foot square? [Trevor:] it's actually a triangular [Nola:] Clever. [Trevor:] and and the photographer's just sort of chopped it up along the along the er hypotenuse, which I think is a bit sneaky really. [Roger:] ? [Trevor:] No. No. No. I sent Rachel to Scarborough to er to look at all the accommodation to make sure of th that it was er suitable. [Jim:] wish you were here [Nola:] Yes. It's four-poster beds. [Dave:] It's been on Wish You Were Here. [Trevor:] It's er [Nola:] There's a gym as well [Trevor:] We've booked [Terry:] . We should have bou should have bought. [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Accommodation will be erm [speaker001:] ? No? [Trevor:] single or double rooms booked single occ occupancy in double rooms. Er all the [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] But Mr [Dave:] Presupposes [Trevor:] so it should keep him in order [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Erm the, there is an annex to the hotel, so some of us will be sleeping in the annex but taking all our meals in the, and it's just round the corner [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] so there's there's really no problem there, no. [Terry:] It is? [Trevor:] Er and we will be we will be having dinner there on the Wednesday evening before we go on the dodgems. [speaker001:] Good. [Trevor:] Er and then full day erm [Jim:] Good. [Trevor:] a full day programme on the Thursday and working up until erm mid-afternoon on the Friday.... Er and Jane has sent us in some proposals, which erm she's s since modified and is now working on and she's calling in to see us for half a day in the near future to [Hugh:] Just to firm up on final [Trevor:] just to on on various bits and pieces. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] What we do need to know is er who is coming from each function. Yo you know the numbers that were allocated to you last time. [Terry:] C can we just r recap [Trevor:] What? [Terry:] on those cos I. Alright. [Trevor:] No. I I've got them written down. I'll I'll let you have them. [Terry:] If you would. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] Thank you. [Trevor:] Er we do need to know w we did I did actually a ask Lawrence, who is one of the two management staff reps, whether or not he was available, cos I know Lawrence as i as er a local councillor has a fairly busy diary. Erm we suggested Lawrence rather than Tony because he's younger and and [speaker001:] Got a future with us. [Hugh:] Aye. [Trevor:] Tony did express an interest in going last time so we felt that [speaker001:] Mm. [Trevor:] Lawrence perhaps is younger and more [Hugh:] That's fine.... [Trevor:] er so I invited Lawrence, but he was concerned about his workload, and felt that because of the staffing within the bridge office, it might not be convenient [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] for Roger to release him. So I said that I would raise that a and er er [Hugh:] What's he working on Rog? [Roger:] Oh he's off work and you see he has all the time off for councils and you know it isn't as if he's there fulltime. And er you know [Trevor:] Right. [Roger:] more time off. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Up to you Roger. [Roger:] Well I'd prefer him not to go but [Trevor:] Right. [Roger:] you know it is di [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] it's a very difficult decision to to take you know. I can go Bill can go but he can't. Erm [Hugh:] I I I would like I would like a sta [Trevor:] We're talking two managers aren't we? [Hugh:] I would like a staff rep to be there and I think it should be a management staff rep. I mean we debated this at the last meeting didn't we? [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] And we concluded that it was a bloody good idea. [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] Erm and out of the two I mean there's no doubt in my mind, that Lawrence should be the one to go. Tony is as Trevor said is has has has got aspirations to leave if if the voluntary severance comes up again and the whole purpose of the exercise is to look to our future. I think it's one of the most important things that we're gonna do this year.... And you know the objective for us is to see where we're going, to be able to encourage our staff to realize that as a, that we have a future. Er w which in turn is is intended to minimize the loss of staff... over the next two years. Er a and for one guy to attend for two days, the guy might go off for for two days. Er if we could find a way of getting him there, I think it would be worthwhile. That's my opinion. Anybody disagree?... [Trevor:] It's not us who'll have to sit in front of the er client and explain why things are [Hugh:] I understand that. [Trevor:] back on er o on a project. [Hugh:] Yeah. Well that's where we've got to prioritize isn't it?... Rog knows best.... [Roger:] I agree with what you say erm it's just unfortunate that it's Lawrence. Erm we're you know having enough trouble [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] with his council work and everything and... erm... whether [Nola:] How many people have you got in the council in your office? [Terry:] At least two. [Hugh:] Dave Dave [Roger:] Dave and Lawrence at the moment that's all but others with aspirations. [Trevor:] But David's only part-time anyway isn't he?... [Terry:] What at work? Oh at work. I mean the council. [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] A a at work he he he's [Nola:] Why? [Roger:] Get fifty percent of Dave now, we only used to get like twenty five before [Hugh:] Yeah. But you only pay him fifty percent of his salary. [Trevor:] That's right. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Cos I mean get a good deal with [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. [Trevor:] you know we don't get a good deal with Dave because we're paying hundred percent overheads on the seat he's sitting [speaker001:] Yes. [Trevor:] in and that sort of thing. [Roger:] I'll see what we can do. Erm [Hugh:] I'll tell you what R I mean Roger I'll leave it entirely with you. If if if you can't afford it so be it. It was a good it was a good thought and I mean I I personally [Roger:] We'll see if there are ways round it [Hugh:] See. Yeah. [Roger:] it by slaving away [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] with. [Hugh:] I mean if you can't [Trevor:] that's that's another option isn't it? If he if you would [speaker001:] Yeah. [Trevor:] be prepared to erm [Hugh:] To work on a Sa on a Saturday say. [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah.... [Roger:] Right. I'll see what we can do about that. [Hugh:] Okay. Erm... Right. So that that looks as though it's going well. [Nola:] [whispering] [] [Hugh:] I was. [Jim:] Are you gonna get an agenda out for it Trevor before... [Trevor:] Oh yes. [Hugh:] Yes. [Trevor:] Erm [Jim:] Good. [Trevor:] well I'm not but Jane'll Jane will be giving us erm [Nola:] Got two Rs [Trevor:] a package to sort of set out what we're gonna do and er how we're gonna achieve it. [Nola:] Bloody hell. [Hugh:] I just don't see them as being [Trevor:] Yeah. I I think it's we would spending quite a lot of money with her and er she's doing a lot of preparation work. [Hugh:] I mean w [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Yeah. If if that's what people think it's about then then we haven't got across haven't we? [Nola:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Erm Yes. How do we get across to the staff the purpose of this exercise? Cos the purpose of the exercise is for us to see how far we've come, but the most important purpose of the exercise is to determine where we wanna go. [Terry:] I need to receive a staff [Trevor:] Well [Terry:] release er a press release w w before we go. [Hugh:] W w [Trevor:] The press release th the the letter I sent to erm Chris [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] or or to Peter to pass on to Chris didn't that sum it up [Hugh:] Yes it did. [Trevor:] reasonably well? I thought [Terry:] distributed [Hugh:] Can we? Can we team brief? [speaker001:] team brief [Hugh:] I know we I know we team briefed last time round but su [Terry:] Did we? [Hugh:] That that we were gonna have this. [speaker001:] told [Trevor:] Have you got my letter? [Hugh:] . But but I [Nola:] Yes. [Hugh:] But what worries me my friend is that that erm I have been talking to one or two members of s staff at a fairly low level over the last week. And they haven't the faintest idea what we're doing. So the team briefing was certainly ineffective.... [Trevor:] Have a look and see if that sums it up. [Terry:] I can't believe it. [Hugh:] No. Seriously.... The the staff don't know what we're up to. Er a a and the [Terry:] Although we couldn't tell them that we're trying to achieve because we haven't we haven't discussed [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] that yet. We know we're looking [speaker001:] Mm. [Terry:] at how we're to go forward in the future an and improve the service [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] to the client. It was a sim mine was a simple team brief I don't know [Hugh:] Mm. I I I spoke to two two people from two different organizations. Two people who are planning to leave our organization, and the purpose of talking to them was to say, oh, what's the problem? Why are you wanting to leave? Er and in both cases it was er a feeling of insecurity, and that they felt they would be more secure going to a different part of the organization. [Trevor:] Great I'm [Hugh:] And and and quite honestly the parts of the organization they were going to I don't perceive as being any more secure. [Terry:] There's no more security anywhere at the moment is there? I mean there's none. [Hugh:] No. So er the whole purpose of our exercise was to give the staff a better feeling of security. [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] And and a and if you like an affirmation that they've got a future with us. So that we could keep the bloody team together over the next few years.... [Terry:] It's gonna be even more difficult another three or four posts I believe are now appointed with Aiden that will create vacancies. Alan 's gone. was a project manager. [Jim:] [whispering] []... [Hugh:] Right. So I I'm gonna suggest that we we re-team brief it this time round [Terry:] What with that letter or something similar? [Hugh:] Som yeah. We can use that as the basis for it. Mm. [Terry:] these people can't say then w what our, that they don't know what our intentions are. [Trevor:] No. That's right. What we're aiming to achieve and [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] how we're gonna do it.... [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Good. [Terry:] [whispering] []... [Hugh:] What might be useful Trev is, Jane put together this proposal, [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] an and inside that proposal were objectives. Erm [Trevor:] Which... yes. [Hugh:] and if we get a photoc I've changed our [Trevor:] Yes but she's, yeah. You you scribbled on [Hugh:] That's right on her on the copy of that. [Trevor:] on that copy. Yeah. [Terry:] We haven't had time to look at that either have we? [speaker001:] No. [Hugh:] No. [Terry:] Obviously don't, a bit naughty if you've agreed objectives and we haven't seen them. [Nola:] copies still got. [Trevor:] Pardon? [Nola:] If you want to use the original if you'd [Terry:] Oh I've [Nola:] feel happier [Trevor:] I've still got it. Yes. [Terry:] But bef before we start issuing that we ought to get the members of this this group here to agree what the objectives are. If if we're gonna accept those [Hugh:] Mm. Right. [Terry:] before the conference. [Trevor:] Er? [Hugh:] I thought we did that last time. [Trevor:] I thought we'd done that, because that that was the remit that we agreed at this table... round this table. [Hugh:] I'll tell you what they are anyway. [Trevor:] And then we we actually put those to to Jane, Hugh, Jim, myself. And she went away and produced that document after we'd given her the brief. [Hugh:] They they're summarized here and what I'll do is we'll get photocopies off these before team brief. [reading] To recognize the successes achieved by the group over the last two to three years.... To understand the future we face, in terms of who our customers will be, suppliers and competitors.... To agree what the overall aspirations of the group are, what what is our current vision and values for future. To identify current and potential customers explore their needs and expectations now and in the future.... To agree key business developments. Where do we need to improve our competitive edge. What would be our business strategy, our project development and market development.... Er for us to identify current problems and improvement opportunities, so that we can deliver... our product and services [].... And the one that I added in was [reading] to identify the options available to the group regarding future ownership. Er to work on the key issues which are common to all options for the future, er such that th we can put ourselves in the best position to secure future business success [].... [Trevor:] I think those are broad enough headings such that [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] To cover anything [] [Trevor:] none of us are likely to fall out about it. The whole idea of this is to go in there with an ope with a with a a a clean canvas and see what we're [Hugh:] What comes out. [Trevor:] producing.... [Hugh:] But erm o one of the things that I asked Jane to look at was we want, it's quite an expensive operation is this just in our salaries and the loss of fees from us from twenty four people [Terry:] We don't get [Hugh:] and [Trevor:] any fees usually. [Hugh:] No. But [Terry:] So that's not too bad. [Hugh:] Okay. Ou well our salaries then. [Terry:] Yes. Certainly, that's a lot of brass. [Hugh:] And and what I wanted was... a means of identifying whether we'd achieved any anything over the two days. And and that was one of the prime things that I asked [Terry:] That's gonna be tricky. [Hugh:] Jane to do. Just to say, look, [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] how do we measure i whether the two days have been successful? And er she's working on that.... So it had to have a structure.... So shall I get copies of that? [Dave:] Mm. [Hugh:] And and we can team [speaker001:] Yeah. [Hugh:] brief that. [Nola:] ? [Hugh:] Not now. [Dave:] This afternoon. [Nola:] Right.... [Hugh:] Right. Anyway I think we've covered that fairly comprehensively. Meeting with Regional Railways, future services and clients' reports. [Trevor:] Right. [Hugh:] Erm... David, Trevor and I met Keith, Roy and? [Dave:] Mark. [Hugh:] Mark, a couple of days ago. [Roger:] Who are the other two people? [Dave:] Mark's a contractor [Terry:] Contract. [Dave:] and Roy's the planning. Regional Railways. [Terry:] Contracts clerk or something isn't he? [Dave:] Yeah. [Trevor:] He, yeah. He's he's what... [Terry:] Duncan is. Was. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] Was. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yeah. Okay. [Hugh:] The meeting was at their request... and what they wanted to do was discuss with us, how we should report... er financial data to them in the future [speaker001:] Mm. [Hugh:] because they are not, not only us but all A S U s that are working for Regional Railways. [Trevor:] They did make the point that we're better than most of their er [Hugh:] Mm. So we're a bit [Trevor:] suppliers. [Hugh:] ahead in fact we're ahead of them. And they are they are very grateful for the service that we provide, which comes about because of our use of DOPACS and the quality systems that we're introducing. And it will they made it quite clear that we are way ahead particularly of people like the S and T [Dave:] Mm. [Hugh:] but also of the other CEDGs.... Now then. What came out of it was erm... a number of things. We've talked about the project safety training that was one thing that came out of it. But the main thing that came out of it is that they need from us er the client reports.... And they're not getting them at the moment. Now... they want from us a prediction of the fee expenditure that they will incur on a period by period basis, and we're not sure how we can provide that. And Trevor's gon

[Nola:] Does anybody else want a biscuit? [Jim:] Yes please. [speaker003:] might as well. [Nola:] Anyway can we after, they, they wanted a few predictions. What was the next thing they also want? [Hugh:] They want... a spread of expenditure for the contract works... So what we agreed with them is that we will forthwith start sending them client reports... and... I've asked them if they will report back to us whether the client reports are in the form they want them.... Because we feel that the client repor... Some within the management team feel that the client reports, as we are proposing to issue them are heavy. In other words there's too much information in them. So they've agreed to cooperate with us in er putting together a client report or, or, or, or devising client reports which have a minimum of information but the information that they require. Not the information that we think they require.... An and I'd like that team briefing as well.... Cos it's quite disappointing that we actually er agreed that we'd start issuing client reports about two months, and as far as I'm aware nobody started issuing them. [Trevor:] Leeds North Wes [Roger:] gonna have to wait for the erm [Trevor:] No. That's done. [Roger:] That's all done? [Trevor:] A a apart from Chris and Bill, I've sat down with all the M S fours an and been through the changes to the appointment contract, and how they now erm form the basis of the er interim client report. Th the, the, the interim client report is ready I mean you could use it today. Erm if that's what people.... Er if you like when I go through it with Chris and Bill, I'll you know invite you in and we'll we'll, we'll, we'll. [Roger:] you say. Well so in other words you haven't done the bridge office? [Trevor:] That's right. [Roger:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Because they weren't available when [Roger:] Yeah. [Trevor:] when I did everybody else and erm I, I [Roger:] Oh yeah. I'd like to be in on that. [Trevor:] Yeah. Er but... but the report, er the database has now been rationalized in accordance with the paper I've put to you. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] The appointment contracts and variations have been changed in accordance with the paper I've put to you. The sort of Toytown Railway example is now up and running. The interim client report which I showed as, again as an example which I provided you a copy with, is now available. So effectively you've had that information all you've actually got to do is to make sure that the text within the general notes of the [Roger:] Mm. [Trevor:] database is relevant and then on all open projects your clerks can produce these reports for your project coordinators to sign off. The only problem is that the first time you do it for each project if it's a ne if it's a an old project, then we are going to have to put something in... the field which summarizes the total remit for the whole of the group to date. Er a and that's a one off exercise [Jim:] I, I think we should let old projects run the, run the course frankly. [Trevor:] Well you can't do that with bridge projects Jim. Y you can in [Jim:] Well no. No. [Trevor:] your office but you can't do it [Jim:] We'll put in large ones but I mean I've got a you know [Trevor:] No. No. No. No. [Jim:] a hundred projects that will disappear in three months. [Trevor:] That's right. A a and we just let those disappear and evaporate. [Jim:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yes. I, I'm not for a minute suggesting that er th that for the small projects that we do that. But most of Roger's projects w would need tha that remit. A and really the remit is nothing other than something like undertake erm er survey work, design, detailed drawings or the reconstruction or repairs to blah blah blah blah including pre-imposed contract work. End of story. Unless we vary and it i i i we just need to put that in. A and I can get er Ken and my clerks to ferret through the old contracts, and all the variations that we've had to date, and come up with a suggested erm latest remit for the project coordinator to approve. If that's what it wants. I mean er that's a service I'm quite happy to offer. Erm so really you tell me which jobs you're gonna send reports out on,a and erm that you would like that particular field sorting out, and I will get Ken and Amanda and Kerry to er t to get something in there, so that when you pull it off erm you're happy with it or we can then edit it. It then g sets the thing right for the next variation as well, cos you use that variation er use that er latest remit within the subsequent variations to the appointment contract. [Hugh:] I've just looked through my notes o of the meeting. They wanted from us an assurance that we would continue to provide the level of service that we have done in the past. Because they were concerned about rumours they'd heard of staff shortages within the C E D G. [Trevor:] Perhaps we should be a bit more careful about whingeing about losing staff to Regional Railways and other people. Er a and just get on and bite the bullet and do something about it. [Hugh:] And get on and, that's right. And get work done. [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] But they're pinching them. ridiculous it's their department that's taking them all []. [Trevor:] Yes. But if we don't [Hugh:] But Terry they're the client [Trevor:] There's a fact of life isn't it? [Hugh:] the client. [Terry:] Well you didn't have to, yeah. But we didn't have to, what I mean the point is that we didn't have to tell, have to tell them, they already knew. They knew that Ian had taken er or was about to take some and they knew that er [Hugh:] Yeah. But you've got, you haven't got a problem with [Terry:] that old Brian 's gone. [Hugh:] but I, I, as I understand it you haven't got a problem with workload. In fac I, from what I understand is that you've got a problem with shortage of workload.... [Terry:] Yeah. Well I can't stop their perception of the fact that the staff that are disappearing out of the office come from the P T section. [Hugh:] Yeah. But. You can't stop it but you can influence it. I mean if, if our, if, if we're going around whingeing that a [Terry:] But we're not. [Hugh:] shortage of staff, but that was their perception Terry. Their perception was that we, we had a desperate shortage of staff [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and we weren't gonna provide them with the level of service that [Trevor:] They got the They got the feeling that we were on the ropes and I, I mean if [cough] even if we are we should we should be managing that internally. [Terry:] No. No. [Hugh:] What I,w w what we've done is we've assured them that we will provide the level of service that they've had previously and if need be we will buy staff in, [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] agency staff or whatever, [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] to continue to provide them with that service. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Okay? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] Aye actually you do need [Hugh:] That's an assurance that we've given them. [Terry:] Yes. A actually that rumour though hasn't come from us so the comment about whingeing was wrong. [Hugh:] I'm not bothered about where it comes from. [Terry:] No. But it wasn't but you see it's the fact that Ian 's gone. R Bob 's gone. Brian 's gone. Robert 's gone. All within the past about eighteen months and they were all from P T fro from Regional Railways P T type jobs. Tha that's what's happened. [Hugh:] Fine. [Terry:] They've picked up their own vibes. [Hugh:] Don't take it negatively. [Terry:] Mm. [Hugh:] The, the, the positive message is that [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] we've given them assurance that we will provide the level of service [Terry:] . Good. [Hugh:] and we need to do it. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] The second thing is that erm with regard to future pro projects, Regional Railways have decreed, that we will only get work through competitive tender. [Trevor:] No. Regional Railways North East Investment have decreed that we will only get work [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] on competitive tender. [speaker003:] Okay. [Hugh:] I understood it was Regional Railways [Trevor:] It was those [Hugh:] Headquarters who'd decreed that we would only get work by [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] I can't see [Terry:] It's it's [Trevor:] I [Hugh:] I [Trevor:] Right. Okay. I I I'll I'll check that [Hugh:] Can you? [Trevor:] with Richard then and see [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] whether or not we're gonna be in the same situation on erm on maintenance jobs. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] I see this as a positive element because here for once the client's gonna have to sit down and produce a specification [Terry:] Put down remit. [Trevor:] and a remit. [Terry:] Right. I don't think they've realized [Trevor:] And then we will go into bat on a fixed price and we'll charge him that, whatever. [Hugh:] And if there's a variation order we will issue a variation order [Trevor:] And we will become [Hugh:] variation. [Trevor:] we will become more professional [Terry:] Correct. [Trevor:] on those jobs. [Terry:] And it will cost him more money administrating. [Trevor:] Er that doesn't matter i it, it, it, it will be a good exercise for us t to take advantage over this er [Terry:] I've warned them [LAUGHTER] [].? [Hugh:] Yeah. I I, what I would say cos we will be competing against Birmingham and Glasgow. Right? We retain the work that we've already got with them. Okay? And th then we've got a lot of work at the moment which we'll retain. The future projects we're gonna have to obtain competitively. [Terry:] So we're te we're team briefing that as well? [Hugh:] Yes. [Trevor:] Yes. [Jim:] Are we team briefing it North East, or the whole of Regional Railways? [Trevor:] Let's say that we have been, we've been [Hugh:] Stick with North East [Trevor:] advised by the New Works Manager of Regional Railways North East that work from him [Hugh:] Mm. Will be [Trevor:] w will be o only obtained via competitive [Hugh:] We'll have to compete for. [Trevor:] tender. [Terry:] Now the relevant point about briefing this is a you've mentioned Glasgow and Birmingham that I already knew about, that we're tendering against. But there is was some intimation that it would go externally as well. [Trevor:] [whispering] Right []. [Hugh:] Right. I, I can't comment on that Terry that is not something [Terry:] Well [Hugh:] that Keith's [Terry:] right. Okay. [Trevor:] But he certainly didn't suggest that. [Hugh:] No. [Trevor:] A a a and that's gonna cause him all sorts of admin type er [Hugh:] Specification problems. [speaker003:] Yes. [Trevor:] well specification and training I mean what's he gonna do about getting people [Terry:] P P T S [Trevor:] on the track? [Hugh:] That, that's not my understanding [Trevor:] I don't think that's [Hugh:] at the moment. [Trevor:] No. [Terry:] Okay. [Hugh:] Now I think as a management team we need to think about what our strategy, our tactics are gonna be with regard to this. Erm because if we look at our experiences with Crossrail, if you d w what do we do? Do we go in low? [Terry:] No. [Hugh:] And then, and then, then try and get money on the [Terry:] If I was tender if, if [Hugh:] go in? [Terry:] But. No. But if, if our fee bids, that have been going in so far, are there or thereabouts and having monitored reports for quite a while, tendencies and yes some are under and some are a bit over but in general they're not th they're not that far out. Then we've gotta, we've gotta continue to tender on that same footing. We can't buy every job. [Norman:] But a w a word a word of er caution here is it's, it's er, er a bad scene that it's only gonna be on certain jobs. If I can just quote our experience er on this, erm we, I was able to compare our costs for design at Hounslow just er in the, just er south of Rug Rugby. [Hugh:] Mhm. [Norman:] Birmingham quoted six thousand. We actually did the job for just under five. Er that wasn't er on competition though,th that was er an Intercity job which Birmingham said they could do it for that figure. [Hugh:] Mm. [Norman:] Where we've been doing comparable work on er the Kings Cross Project, we wer we told by the old project team that we were very much cheaper than Birmingham. And better but that was another story. When we actually went to competitive tender, which was for a route improvement down near Leicester, they undercut us. The w we put in what we thought was a completely fair er, er quotation for what we were doing. Bearing in mind we have the more difficult travelling but they undercut us. And my suspicion is they put in a selectively low bid on that particular job. Erm we also lost out on permanent way standard drawings against the Glasgow office who were desperate for work. [Hugh:] Mm. [Norman:] They put in th er a cheap price. They got the entire work. They ran out of money, and they've had to be supplemented since to get the job finished. S so they were [Hugh:] That's why it's precisely [Norman:] they were [Hugh:] . Thank you for that. [Roger:] But on that Leic th th the Leicester job that you l erm [Norman:] The line? [Roger:] Yeah. You'd adopted the same philosophy of pricing that. You ha because you suddenly realized you were [Hugh:] price sensibly. [Norman:] in competitive tender you didn't change your philosophy? [Terry:] Yeah. I think you've got to price sensibly. [Norman:] I, I, I did not. Er, er w we costed out the job how we were going to do it our normal procedure. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. Mm. [Norman:] The only thing I didn't have control of w were the rates we're charging. I mean [Trevor:] Mm. [Norman:] purely departmentally I [Trevor:] Mm. [Norman:] could have t have knocked about twenty percent off my rates and still got them even. Which incidentally would have been enough to get the job. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Norman:] Er [speaker003:] Yeah. [Norman:] but erm beware. It it's a bad scene when it's i if, if it's universal, if they, if they're put in bids eventually they'll bankrupt themselves. But when it's selective and they've got a whole market to go [speaker003:] Mm. [Norman:] back on, erm [speaker003:] They're in a. [Norman:] my experience is they, they, they put in artificially low bids. [Hugh:] Be because they're owned by Regional Railways and Re i if they lose money Regional Railways will. [Terry:] But why aren't Intercity asking Birmingham to tender against us for Intercity jobs? [Norman:] Don't even think about it. [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] L let, let it [Trevor:] Yeah. We don't want to work hard. [Hugh:] th that I've thought about very seriously but, but Terry, think about this. What proportion of their work is Intercity? Compared with what proportion of our work is Regional Railways? [Terry:] Tt I wouldn't know. [Trevor:] Anyway that looks like the only tribute problem for this financial year isn't it? Because next financial [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] year if we're still within B R we certainly won't be part of erm [Roger:] Intercity? [Trevor:] Intercity or Regional Railways. [Terry:] That's right. [Trevor:] So Birmingham won't be part of Regional Railways. I mean we'll be back to the scenario that we were fighting for three years ago. [Hugh:] That's right. [Roger:] Mm. [Trevor:] So that we can perhaps get [speaker003:] Well perhaps [Trevor:] some method of [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] cooperation within [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] the other. [Terry:] Aye. Yeah. I [Trevor:] The last thing we want to do is to start infighting on the S A Us [speaker003:] Fighting them on the. [Trevor:] because [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] we'll [speaker003:] Ee [Trevor:] just do what the, what the industry outside has done and spiral down into producing lower and lower quality of services [Roger:] Yeah. Yeah. Hear hear. [Trevor:] and not [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] serving anybody. [Terry:] Well I've not [Hugh:] We did make we did make this point to Keith actually very very clearly, [Dave:] Yeah. [Hugh:] that we w that we are concerned that what will happen is that everybody will start putting silly low prices in and t a and one of two things will happen. Either th the quality of service will go down, or he will have all the hassle of er not knowing, not knowing what his design [Terry:] Sorting out what he shouldn't be sorting out [Hugh:] costs are gonna be. [Terry:] Well I just thi [Hugh:] Because he'll be getting clobbered with claims all the time. [Terry:] Yeah. Yeah.... [Hugh:] So they're difficult times. I think our strategy should be that we pare our prices down, to the absolute minimum that we think we can do the work for, take a little bit more off that and hope to get some money back on variations. Because if you don't get a job you don't even have the chance of doing the work. [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] I don't, mm I I'm not too happy with that [Trevor:] Yeah. Well [Terry:] philosophy [Trevor:] well [Hugh:] Well I'm not happy with it [Trevor:] th th that [Hugh:] but I, I just think it's a matter of [Trevor:] I'll, I'll go along with that Rog er Hugh, provided that we [Terry:] Forty five percent of our work is taking a bit off when we don't money gonna make any money. [Trevor:] Perhaps i i it'll encourage us to look for a shorter route through to the, the, the solution. [Terry:] But th the problem is all the shortcuts are g gonna reduce the quality of service we give to the client. Like at the moment if there's anything goes wrong with possessions, it really ought to be the project manager sorting it out. [Trevor:] Yes. Exactly. [Hugh:] Quite. [Terry:] But we don't do that. We sort that out for him. [Hugh:] Well [speaker003:] Well [Hugh:] perhaps we shouldn't [speaker003:] it shouldn't [Terry:] Yeah. Yeah but that [Hugh:] perhaps, perhaps that'll fall [Terry:] Right. [Hugh:] to [Terry:] Right. But, but you see the point I'm getting at? It's the same with Lookouts as well. If there's a problem with Lookouts we do it and we for him we also [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] look after all his safety issues. The, the problem is if it it's alright to out-price and then reducing your service, but that soon switches the client off. [Hugh:] Yes it does. I'll go along [Trevor:] But Terry one [Terry:] A and that's just as dangerous [Trevor:] once he's [Terry:] as overpricing it. [Trevor:] once he starts to [Terry:] Isn't it? If he starts getting, go on. [Trevor:] once he starts to specify in a contract document, what we are pricing for, then we've got an immediate, okay, we've done this for you and this is [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] we've done this on a time rate and it's, it's extra. [Terry:] But the, the vibes are bad. [Trevor:] But please pay us. [Terry:] The vibes are bad [Trevor:] No because [speaker003:] it would be [Trevor:] because a all consultants are gonna do that. [Terry:] The vibes are bad. . Who sorted out the problems with all the possessions and supervision for Leeds North West? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] Me and Roger. Not the bloody project manager. [Hugh:] Terry the vibes are wrong all the way round. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Whatever we do it is a risky situation. [speaker003:] Well I [Terry:] Yeah. Yeah. [Hugh:] Let us [Terry:] I'm happy to pare the job down Hugh but I'm not happy to start taking money off. [Jim:] No. There's a big difference between us and consultants isn't there? Because if you [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Jim:] were outside, and you were running jobs really tight, flexitime [speaker003:] Yeah. [Jim:] would go out of the window, staff would be working what hours, whatever hours were necessary to get it inside the job. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Not only that staff [Jim:] be silly expense claims and all this [Hugh:] staff salaries staff salaries wou let's be fair. Outside [Jim:] Go out the window. [Hugh:] staff salaries have gone down over the last eighteen months [Jim:] Too. I was speaking to a lad who left my office to go to a consultant.... And he's been there now about three years and they're just surviving, and he's says, I'm earning roughly what I was here but I'm working literally twice the hours. And he says, and if I don't, I don't have a job. That's the reality of the situation. [Hugh:] Correct. [Jim:] And I, I, I think we've, we've [Terry:] . He has to get the job done for a price. [Jim:] We've got to be very careful we're not tying our hands behind our backs. [Terry:] No. We can't play that game. [Jim:] . Yes we can. [Hugh:] B but Terry let us look at the [Jim:] Oh yes we can. [Hugh:] other thing. If, if we don't [Terry:] We haven't decided that. [Hugh:] if we don't work on the strategy that I've been suggesting putting it on the table If you don't do that, I can guarantee that Bill, Bill is gonna play silly buggers. That I am certain of and Bill is gonna put in silly prices. [Terry:] But it won't do any good though will it? [Hugh:] [sniff] But it won't do us any good either cos we won't have any work to do.... [Roger:] It depends who gets in first doesn't it? Really? [Hugh:] What do you mean? [speaker003:] What? Mm? [Hugh:] What do you mean by get in first? [speaker003:] Well in first is getting the bloody job. [Roger:] Well no. If we [LAUGHTER] have a [] if we have a [Terry:] There's no w what are you? Let's, let's [Roger:] done in that way to [speaker003:] Yeah. [Roger:] start with and let him. [Terry:] But you've already said forty five percent of our business [speaker003:] Is with [Terry:] is with Regional Railways if we're [Roger:] I know. [Terry:] gonna take forty five percent of our business at less than the cost to do the job, that don't make good business sense. [Trevor:] No. No. No. What we're saying is that, that we're gonna have we we're gonna put a bid in [Hugh:] put a bid in at a certain price. [Trevor:] and then we're gonna, we're gonna... work down [Hugh:] We're gonna w [Trevor:] to that price. [Hugh:] Or [Dave:] Or recover it. [Hugh:] Or recover it. [Trevor:] Or recover it. [Hugh:] By identifying gaps in their documentation in the same way as. [Roger:] But then you get back to what Terry said about, bloody York [Terry:] you'll really switch off him. [Roger:] you know. They look for everything. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Right [Roger:] Erm [Hugh:] Roger. [Roger:] Yeah. [Hugh:] you don't get the work. [Trevor:] You don't get the work but then you [Hugh:] But what do you want? [Terry:] No. But you [Trevor:] you don't need to work for anything do you? [Hugh:] want the hassle of getting the money? [Terry:] No. [Hugh:] or do you? [Terry:] No. I think that [Hugh:] o o or that I would want the hassle and not get the work. [Terry:] I think I think what we ought to do is we ought to... point out these problems at a [Roger:] Oh we've covered that. [Trevor:] We've covered that. [Hugh:] We've pointed that out, to Keith. It's, I mean what you've gotta be is, is realistic. [Trevor:] Keith's [Hugh:] A and realize that K Keith, it's not Keith's decision. [Trevor:] It's not in Keith's [Hugh:] if Keith had the, the decision to make he would continue working with us. There's no doubt about it. It's outside of Keith, I think it's outside of David. And I believe it's with Richard [Terry:] Yeah. Well [Hugh:] . [Jim:] going to miss us a great opportunity to learn how to do it right [Trevor:] it's a great opportunity. Yeah. [Hugh:] it is. It's an opportunity we're gonna have now which in two years time [Dave:] Yeah. [Terry:] But, but don't [Hugh:] we will not have [Trevor:] Can we just put it [Hugh:] because. [Jim:] Absolutely. [Trevor:] put it in perspective though? [Terry:] But don't knock any money off. All I say is, if we're gonna pare it down, let's pare it down before we start the job and put in the price it will cost. [Hugh:] Right. Can I, can I, can I, can I re [Terry:] Including knocking off photographs if they say they're gonna want photographs. Right? [speaker003:] Correct. [Hugh:] So they don't get them. [Terry:] So they don't get them.... [Jim:] Don't the cost [Terry:] . No. You see what this, I'll tell you what this says [Jim:] the staff costs it's the staff costs you've got to control [Trevor:] Yes. [Jim:] If the staff can't to do it at within the cost, outside, [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] then staff simply work for nothing. It's as simple as that. They have to work for nothing to get the job done. [speaker003:] Yeah. Mm. [Jim:] That's a reality, and I don't see why this office should not consider the fact that they may have to get involved in that. We may very well [Terry:] Well [Jim:] have to do that. [Terry:] but until he shows national agreements to them you'll never get that agreed will? [Jim:] Well some of them [Roger:] ? [Jim:] are not national agreements. [Roger:] What, what erm makes you think [Terry:] they are and you can't [Roger:] Bill [Terry:] People work overtime and they get paid for it. [Roger:] by what he's done so far in. [Terry:] Full stop. more payment. [Hugh:] Yeah. Right. Bill Bill has [Terry:] Standard conditions. [Hugh:] Bill has worked... very hard to preserve Glasgow's position [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] in terms of, I mean Bill was the one who drafted up the th the rules of er distribution of work between [speaker003:] Mhm. [Hugh:] organizations. It was his idea. He got it written er if you remember the rules of the game are that all Regional Railways work will go to a Regional Railways office and they will decide if it goes out. [Roger:] If it goes out. Yeah. Yeah. [Hugh:] Ditto for Intercity erm... intentionally I've played a very low profile game on this. And if you like ignored those because we had more to lose. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] But that's the only reason why. If I'd been in Bill's position I, or if we'd had been in Bill's position, we'd have done the same as well. And said, bloody hell. Glasgow are doing all this Intercity work. If they were. We should be doing that. So erm... t they're fighting to survive, we're fighting to survive. And, and they're not gonna, they're not gonna behave as er real gentlemen Roger.... I can promise you. They're gon gonna be interested in that [Roger:] Oh n no. [Hugh:] work. [Roger:] You can commit suicide as well if you're daft can't you? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Roger:] Erm [Trevor:] J just to put it in perspective [Roger:] you know. [Trevor:] erm Hugh said that er it doesn't apply to jobs that we've already got. And [Hugh:] At the moment we've got ninety five percent of jobs that Keith knows about. [Trevor:] a b we've got That's right [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] Keith doesn't know many jobs that we don't [Hugh:] That's. [Trevor:] know about a and therefore it's only things that start to creep in this year. So th the chances are we might only be looking [speaker003:] [cough] [Trevor:] on investment jobs a a at a handful of projects that we might need to start competitively [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] tendering them. And Jim's point about you know gettin using this as an opportunity to er s [speaker003:] Er spot on. [Trevor:] t to get it, is just right because i i in twelve months time we might have to tender for every job. And it doesn't matter whether we give him bad vibes. If that's the marketplace that we're in then we we've got two choices. [Terry:] Right. [Trevor:] Either w w we start to er [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] learn the, the, the street credibility that you need to er [Hugh:] We have no option but t to learn it. We've gotta [Trevor:] to survive o or y you, you [Hugh:] become streetwise and we've gotta become streetwise [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] bloody quickly. [Trevor:] or you move into procurement. O or something else. Or you retire. [Hugh:] That's right. I, I mean [Trevor:] There aren't many other [Hugh:] I if you can't stand the heat, you get out the kitchen. And if that's what we... what it is then we have to do it. But er I, I don't want get out the kitchen, I want to [LAUGHTER] keep cooking boys []. [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Y you, you, you're,I I'm, mm. Yeah. The problem is what you're raising a lot more issues here the undertow is unbelievable. [Trevor:] And, and we're gonna finish them at Scarborough aren't we? [speaker003:] They ain't gonna go away. [Terry:] The undertow is unbelievable [Hugh:] We are. [Terry:] like [Trevor:] We're talking round it now Hugh. [Terry:] like you know [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] you can take all the graduates away. I don't want any [Hugh:] No. [Roger:] Mm? Yeah. Oh yeah. [Terry:] I don't [Roger:] If you want if we do what I to do [Terry:] I'll tell you what [Jim:] It's the reality of the [Terry:] It's the reality of the world you don't want any [Roger:] my office. [Terry:] You don't want anybody [speaker003:] Right. [Terry:] who's learning [Hugh:] Roger what's your biggest problem at the moment? [Terry:] you know. [Roger:] Staff? [Hugh:] Right. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Get rid of the graduates. What's your problem tomorrow? Then the year after? The year after that? The year after that? [Roger:] Not necessarily. No. Cos get qualified staff who would actually be able [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] to produce [Hugh:] I hear what you're saying. [Terry:] Yeah. No. If we're gonna take serious, serious action [speaker003:] That's the problem [Terry:] and get to grips with the real world, then th er as well as what Jim said about the fact that we pay staff lieu time, and we pay them overtime, and [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] and we let them, allow them to do flexitime, [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] we've got to look very seriou seriously about the productivity of the work that's churned out. And many of our jobs [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] are churned out poorly and take extra time [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] because we take on t very junior staff T Os and we have a [Roger:] Hear hear. [Terry:] commitment to sending them to college, so we lose one day a week for a start. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] Erm we have the graduates who we're training up and they're not very good and drop us in the mire sometimes. And they've got a vast learning queue. We don't specialize people who are graduates and say, you work in the works office or the bridge office. We say well pick up a bit of experience here and a bit of experience there. [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] And that costs us money. [Roger:] problem. [Hugh:] Quite right. [Trevor:] Yeah I mean I, I was amazed when I wrote to you and suggested that er we didn't need thirteen weeks in bridge assessment perhaps perhaps less than that. You came back and said you wanted them to have thirteen weeks. Thirteen weeks when we're paying their bloody salaries and they're earning nothing for us and really [Roger:] Consultant wouldn't bother with that. [Trevor:] a consultant wouldn't send them [Terry:] Certainly wouldn't. [Trevor:] on an area for six months and pay their salary. He wouldn't send them [Hugh:] Yeah and to be fair [Roger:] It's this trying to have our foot in every camp and trying [Trevor:] We're actually paying we're actually having to pay overtime [speaker003:] Yeah. Mm. [Trevor:] when they're doing site supervision work on areas. [Terry:] The problem is we don't know what type of animal we are. [Hugh:] No. [Terry:] That's the problem [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] at the moment. We're a hybrid. [Roger:] change again in April. [Hugh:] We are. [Terry:] An absolute. [Hugh:] To be fair if, if we, if we were on our own we, I would agree with you, we would not be doing that. [speaker003:] No. [Terry:] We couldn't afford to. [Hugh:] No. We couldn't. [Terry:] You can undercut jobs providing staff are r a a a you know all pulling hundred and twenty five percent of the time. [Roger:] Mm. [Terry:] But you can't if they're not. [Hugh:] we're digressing again. [Jim:] You've gotta, you've gotta be hardworking. [Hugh:] Am I, am I not right in saying [speaker003:] That's right. [Hugh:] that all new graduates? [Nola:] [cough] [Trevor:] No. [speaker003:] No. [Terry:] You're bloody not. [Hugh:] ? [Trevor:] All the graduates go on our books. We get a consideration from the business unit for... some of the graduates that they have selected for us. So you're gonna put other people on the th that have not been brought through [Hugh:] Through. [Trevor:] central selection, we will end up having to [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Trevor:] to pay their. [Roger:] Or we just get credited, you're charging that, if you've got a, an H Q graduate if you call him that on a job he's still charged that job. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Oh yes. [Roger:] I mean it's just that the S A U profits go up a bit because you get a credit from er [Trevor:] That's right. [Roger:] Yeah. But the job doesn't benef that job doesn't benefit. [Terry:] B but you know we do a lot of things [Trevor:] No that job doesn't benefit so it, if, if he's [Terry:] we do a lot of things don't get paid. [speaker003:] Yes. [Terry:] Still. You keep sending me comments er things like, will you pass comments on this standard platform design? [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] Got sod all to do with me as a S A U. [Hugh:] Fair comment. [Terry:] I went yesterday, to tell everybody about access requirements and spent all day [Hugh:] And you get nothing for it. [Terry:] plus expenses and we get nothing for it. [Hugh:] The only thing you do get... and this is what the consultant [Terry:] We build up expertise. But [Hugh:] No. No.. You make contacts. [Terry:] Oh yeah. Yeah. [Hugh:] You make contacts you impress people [Terry:] That's right. [Hugh:] on, on, on your expertise. And that's a market [Trevor:] Or not. [Hugh:] Or, or, or not. [Terry:] Or not. Yeah.. [Hugh:] The op no but the opportunity is there. For you [Terry:] It is. [Hugh:] to impress people. [Terry:] It is. [Hugh:] Let them know what expertise you have and there's when they have a problem, they come, is that the one by Mr? [Roger:] Yeah. It's lovely. [Hugh:] It's very good. [Roger:] Mm. [Hugh:] And Roger? [Roger:] Mm. [Hugh:] You read that. What it says about training and graduate training and so on. [speaker003:] Yeah. He doesn't do it. [Hugh:] No. It does n't. [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Th that, that message is entirely opposite from what you would [Terry:] But you see [Roger:] Ah! . Yeah. [Terry:] Yeah. I know but you see [Hugh:] We digress. [Terry:] We do [Roger:] Mm. [Terry:] digress, but I think i i it's important that I, I'm, I'm, I'm beginning to wonder now what our real stance is. Cos we've gone through a whole sort of full circle about taking a stance that's very aggressive in terms of saying if we i i if we tender for something we're gonna hit the client with V Os and this that and the other. And yet in the past [speaker003:] Not really. [Terry:] if I'd had said I wanna, I wanna claim this from client you would have said come on, that's a bad marketing exercise. Back off. [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] Do it for free. Now we can't have both. You can't have your cake and eat it. [Hugh:] You can't. You couldn't. But, but Terry what you've gotta rec [Terry:] So which are we, which are we going for? [Hugh:] What you've gotta recognize, well you may go for both. What you've gotta recognize is that the circumstances have changed. [Terry:] Yeah. Well I, I'm aware of that. [Hugh:] We [Terry:] Mm. [Hugh:] we started off m o o o or part of this conversation, Trevor and I said, Keith wants to continue working with us. [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] How do we make sure of that [Hugh:] Right. [Roger:] is what we [Hugh:] Our clients, [Terry:] But [Hugh:] the clients who deal with us, like the way we work. [Terry:] Yeah. Yeah. [Hugh:] Right? [Terry:] But [Hugh:] That is because of the way we've behaved over the last two years. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Now circumstance [Terry:] cultivated that. [Hugh:] the cir that's right. [Terry:] Mm. But, but let's take the, take the finance bit. You said w we pare things down to a minimum price. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] And then if they come along and change anything we hit, we hit them for the, the extras. [Hugh:] Not in an aggressive way. [Terry:] Right. But I'm talking, I [Hugh:] In a professional way. [Terry:] but when I spoke about safety and getting the money back from the safety training that they now want that they didn't want in the first place you said, no, we should do that [Hugh:] That's right. [Terry:] in-house. Well it [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] seems to me you've got, you, you've got er two different approaches there completely. [Hugh:] Yes. I have. [Terry:] One's saying we do it for free and another one's saying it is n't. A and I I'm not, not really quite sure what we're trying to a get. [speaker003:] Well [Terry:] I think we need to d we need to discuss that at Scarborough possibly. [Dave:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Scarborough's the place for it. [Hugh:] I mean our ob my objective is quite [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] straightforward and that is to stay in business. [Terry:] But mine's jus [Hugh:] It's about it's about [Terry:] mine isn't just that. Mine's to actually make some sort of profit. [Trevor:] W we we've drifted now onto all the issues that we'll [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] be talking at Scarborough in a non-structured way without Jane's help. I, I honestly believe that we should back off and, and get on [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] with the. [Hugh:] Back off. Next thing is safety training for project engineers was covered and we've discussed that previously. Safety validation of contractors was another item th that they give you a briefing of the meeting [Trevor:] Sorry. Right. Beg your pardon. Right. [Hugh:] Okay? They raised the question of safety validation of contractors erm but I don't think there's anything that we need to involve ourselves in that. We talked about terms and conditions of engagement and as I said previously they are looking for us to provide them with spreads of expenditure of fees and, and Trevor's looking into that. [Dave:] Just before you go over there was one point on the safety of contractors. Regional Railways have requested that they see copies of our contractors' performance reports. Ones we do internally. [Hugh:] Right.... [Trevor:] Perhaps we should send them to the client on all [Dave:] Yeah. [Trevor:] er all clients on all jobs. If we do them. [Dave:] Yeah. [Terry:] Perhaps the clients should vet them himself.... [Hugh:] I don't see how he can. [Terry:] Again CONDAM regulations once again here. I know I keep harking on it but the CON [Trevor:] What is this condom? [Terry:] the CONDAM regulations actually say the client must ensure that he employs a safety conscious contractor. [Trevor:] A a a and he can delegate that responsibility t to us. [Hugh:] Gentlemen what are we? What are we in business for? We're in business to [Trevor:] Provide the client [Hugh:] provide these people with a service. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Hugh:] That's what I see I mean [Trevor:] He's doing that by employing us. [Hugh:] all the. If the better service and more comprehensive service we can provide,th the better chance we have of getting repeat orders. Okay? [Terry:] But the more it costs us. [Hugh:] And the more it costs us. Yeah. [Terry:] And therefore the less [Hugh:] And meanwhile [Terry:] competitive we become. [Hugh:] Not necessarily. [Terry:] W n no. But these [Jim:] I don't think it's as simple as that Terry I think [Terry:] It isn't as simple as that. You're quite right. [Jim:] you have to, you have to be able to bend and flex as, as the organization [speaker003:] Mm. Move on. [Jim:] requires. [Hugh:] Liabilities we've talked about. And that's it. Good. But I, I thought it was a very useful meeting with er with, with Keith. It flagged up certain erm items for concern, better that we know than not, not know them.... Management procedures project coordinator.... I'd like, this is one I think that Jim raised. There's a letter from Jim. I would like with your agreement Jim t to take that off the agenda and for you Dennis and I to discuss that out of this meeting [Jim:] Yeah. I've got a time in your diary for that. [Hugh:] Good. And then if need be we'll raise it at the next meeting. [Jim:] Right. [Hugh:] Okay. I think there's value in us talking about it quietly. [Jim:] Yes. Can I substitute one in there very briefly? [Hugh:] Sure. [Jim:] Er it is another procedure o or set of procedures. I'm having a devil of a job with the correspondence system that the management procedures demand.... Being that management procedures are supposed to be best practice, [Hugh:] Mhm. [Jim:] I would put it on record that B E S has never managed this correspondence system, in the way that the management procedures now dictate. If you look through it, if my adding up is correct, it requires us to keep something in the order of sixteen separate files on one project. [Trevor:] Bloody hell. [Terry:] It's a lot. [Jim:] If you look if you look through it I think you'll get [Terry:] Yeah. It's a lot. [Jim:] sixteen separate files on one project [Trevor:] Ridiculous. [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] and quite frankly, we talk about being competitive and what have you. [Terry:] It's a farce. [Jim:] My clerk just cannot keep control of this. And the engineers are saying, this is absolutely ludicrous. For the vast majority of our schemes which are very small.... Why can't we just have them in a loose-leaf binder with dividers in, and let the engineer decide how to hold documentation together?... Now I can tell you that Swindon are B S five seven five O certificated. They have a filing system, and the procedure for it which is about two pages is highly efficient, and the engineers think it's the best thing since sliced bread. And I have that I've been down to see it. [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] Plus everything's in one file just divided? [Jim:] Ours [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] to be honest [Terry:] You can never find what you want. wrong file [Jim:] I asked I asked my clerk t to get me file something and he says, [Terry:] Which one? [Jim:] Which bit do you want? [Terry:] I know that's [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] what I keep getting. [Jim:] I said just give me the file on it. Which bit? The green folder? The red one? The pink one? [Terry:] . Yellow one. [Jim:] Oh I said [Terry:] Blue one. [Jim:] I can't do with all this. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Right. [Jim:] Now I raised that because I think it is a very very serious threat to our efficiency, in project engineering. [Hugh:] Jim y you know the philosophy. If we can improve let's hom let's home in on it and let's improve it.... [Jim:] Well perhaps it's worthy of discussion with Dennis when we're talking about project [Hugh:] What project at the same meeting. [Jim:] coordinators. [speaker003:] Yes. [Hugh:] I support that a hundred percent.... Good. Thanks Jim.... [Jim:] Right. That was it. [Hugh:] Any other business? Could I raise two items of any other business?... One is the visit from the I the Irish Railways... [tape cuts out and is restarted] [speaker003:] certainly made a profit for Intercity out of it with [Hugh:] We don't want to mention it on here. Do we? [Roger:] Mm? [Jim:] Well Trainload Freight haven't got any facilities to fill depots have they? [Terry:] No. They buy in? [Jim:] So why? So why shouldn't they [Trevor:] Its batteries have fallen out, Nola. [speaker003:] Its batteries. [Nola:] No. Those are spare batteries. [speaker003:] Oh right. [Hugh:] It's still going. What are you talking about? [Nola:] I've just started it again. It was finished in the middle [Hugh:] Oh well. [Nola:] of the tape. [Hugh:] Well I don't care. [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] [Nola:] Mm.... [Hugh:] Right. That is it from me.... [Trevor:] Are we on to any other business? [Hugh:] That was my, they were my any other businesses. [Trevor:] Oh right. [Jim:] Finance nice report you want there. [Trevor:] Well I thought we were going to any other business first. [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] Oh. I thought we were running out of time. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Well [Hugh:] Yeah. We are [Roger:] Why was Monday cancelled? [speaker003:] [whispering] [] [Roger:] The dinner? [speaker003:] Oh. [Hugh:] Oh. Because David was ill. [Nola:] Because David is ill. [Roger:] Oh. [Hugh:] Sorry about that. [Nola:] I forgot to [Hugh:] Didn't you tell them? [Roger:] No. We were just told it was cancelled. [Nola:] I told Amanda [Hugh:] Oh Miss. [Nola:] why. [Roger:] I think said she didn't know. [Nola:] Tt. [sigh] [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] Well you know what women are like. [Hugh:] Now you know. [Roger:] Okay. [Dave:] probably. [Trevor:] Right. I've got two or three small items under any other business if [Hugh:] Well... yes. [Trevor:] Right. Er delegated authorities. Got Hugh's delegated authorities. Are you happy for the whole of your group to? [Hugh:] Yes. I am indeed.... Open this on trust. [Terry:] Erm [Trevor:] Open [whispering] this on trust []. [speaker003:] Let it be. [Terry:] Is this the right? [Hugh:] Can I have a copy? [Terry:] I is this the right way to disseminate this information? [Trevor:] Yeah. Why not. [Terry:] within the procedure. [Roger:] Ah! [Terry:] Well every time I send something out writes to me on bloody DOPACS saying this is not the way to disseminate this information. [speaker003:] always have a [Dave:] document. [Hugh:] Yes. He should..... Right. [Trevor:] Oh. [Hugh:] Good. [Trevor:] Anyway [Hugh:] We won't read through now [Trevor:] I don't think we need to go through it. I think if, if there are any [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] it it doesn't ev I mean the, the, the one main item is th th that shocked us all is that is only Chris can approve the use of consultants, in any shape or form. [Terry:] More fool that that that. [Trevor:] Excluding I now understand training [Hugh:] Technical. [Trevor:] consultants. [Hugh:] I didn't think it applied to technical consultants. [Trevor:] Oh yes. [Hugh:] Is it? [Roger:] So if we're going to employ a consultant [Hugh:] Yes. [Roger:] t er to do a check on a bridge [Trevor:] Yes. Yes. Chris. [Roger:] It has to go to Chris? [Trevor:] Yeah. Absolutely. [Roger:] Even [Trevor:] Yeah. [Roger:] even though you put that on your form A and the Board have signed it. [Trevor:] But Chris doesn't see the form A. [Roger:] No. The Board do. [speaker003:] He's the managing director of it. [Trevor:] Is he? Well l that's what it says and, and really it should only be erm... a a a rubber stamping exercise. I mean I cannot believe that the guy [Jim:] . Sorry. [Trevor:] wants to sort of maintain that sort of level on, on [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] all lev all expenditure. Anyway. So that's that one. [Nola:] Anyway just summarize that would you? Chris is the only person who can approve what? [Hugh:] It's the use of consultants. [Trevor:] Er the use of consultants. Excluding for training purposes.... [Roger:] Now what if it's Re we're doing a job for Regional Railways? [speaker003:] You need to [Roger:] Can we say to Regional Railways you know? [Trevor:] Ah! W w we will kn with a bit of luck procurement of consultants, we will get the, we will make a recommendation to the, to the client that, that these consultants are engaged on his behalf. [Roger:] Right. [Trevor:] And we will certify payments to these consultants when they've done the work. But the actual letter appointing the consultant and the actual payment of the fee will be just like any other contractor. And we can do it that way. That's the, the sensible way to do it.... [Roger:] So it's only really Intercity jobs that need go to Chris? [Trevor:] Er yes. Providing that the, providing that the client's agent is prepared to stand up [Roger:] Yeah. [Trevor:] and, and own the job. Yeah. [Roger:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yes. We don't have We just treat them like a con a another contractor. [Hugh:] Right. Erm I, I will look through that and I will see if there's anything within those delegated authorities that I can actually delegate downwards to your good selves. [Trevor:] Would you note on the front sheet, [Hugh:] The date. [Trevor:] th th that I have stamped the date that I received it, [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] and I have put a question er a ring and a question mark round the fact that I hope that the auditor isn't gonna try and isn pretend that we had that for all last year. [Hugh:] Mm. Cos the [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] auditor is due to come in actually very soon. [Trevor:] Absolutely. So I mean I I've stamped that in, in a very positive way so that it's er [Hugh:] Good. Thank you for that Trev. [Trevor:] you know? [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Right. [Hugh:] It is is my intention to have a look through that and see if I can delegate any of those down to your good selves. Right? [Trevor:] Okay? [speaker003:] It's in that stuff they [Trevor:] Erm [speaker003:] tied up in those blue books. [Hugh:] Yes. [Roger:] Can I claim my [Hugh:] control. [Roger:] my disturbance allowance please?... [Trevor:] Micromail. [Hugh:] Micromail. [Trevor:] From today we are [speaker003:] [singing] [] [Trevor:] w better equipped to get out onto B R's mainframe computer systems,a and the problems that we've had in the past with regards to Micromail ha should disappear. If it's decided, any of us or all of us o or our reports, are gonna use Micromail can you let me know? And we will set up mailboxes for you as individuals. [Jim:] What so we're leaving it to people to decide whether they want to use it? [Trevor:] No. No. No. No. No. No. [Jim:] saying? [Trevor:] [whispering] []. I'm saying erm, if I give you all a mailbox number immediately and then you never actually log in to your computers to see whether or not you've got any mail that's arrived, then there's absolutely no point in doing that is there? [Jim:] But if you don't give them a mailbox, you won't encourage other people to send them mail [Trevor:] I quite agree. [Jim:] thereby, thereby compelling people to use the. [Trevor:] But i if our clients say, oh I want to send Roger something so what's his mailbox number? Whacks it in, and sends it off, erm a a and Rog never logs in as himself, [Jim:] He'll never get his mail. [Trevor:] he'll never know th th th th that one of his clients has sent him something. So if if Roger's [Jim:] letters on a morning, you don't know what's inside. [Trevor:] That's right. So it's a, it's a, it's a point of principle are we gonna be, are we gonna use electronic mail? [Hugh:] I think there should be focal points.... [Terry:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] Yeah your clients [Roger:] You see in fact [speaker003:] Mm. [Roger:] er yeah this is the beauty of a fax you know, whether you're there or not it gets to you. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] And somebody deals with it if you're not there. But Micromail and you can only access it yourself [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] I can't see [Jim:] much more flexible than that. Much more flexible than that. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] I mean the beautiful thing about Micromail is y you can get a a a a message up, you can immediately copy it to three other people, or thirty other people if you wish, erm and you can reply to it instantly without having to, you know y you just type a message in and press the button, and it's gone. It's replied. [Jim:] It's very very efficient. Oh I used it [Trevor:] Yes. It is. [Jim:] for years. Very [speaker003:] Yeah. [Jim:] very efficient system. [Trevor:] But you've got to actually have a wish [speaker003:] Needs to be. [Trevor:] to use it you see. [Jim:] The only reason most people don't use it is cos they don't like to get on a keyboard of a computer. That's the one thing that stops them using it. It's very very efficient.... [Hugh:] Well I, I, I have no comment I mean I just don't underst I, I don't know enough about it to, even to be [Trevor:] Right. W [Hugh:] able to comment on how it should be operated. [Trevor:] Would we like a teach, would we like er a teaching arranging, for this meeting? [Jim:] I think it's absolutely essential that [speaker003:] Mhm. [Jim:] the staff are advised what this [Hugh:] Right. [Jim:] facility provides them with. [Trevor:] Right. [Jim:] Cos it's used nationally all our [speaker003:] Okay. [Jim:] clients are, are tapped into it, and we should be able to communicate with them at the press of a button. [Trevor:] Absolutely. [Hugh:] Right. Let let's have, let's have a. Yes please. Yes. [Trevor:] At the next meeting a, a twenty minutes, yes. [Jim:] Client reports and things like that you know you, I mean it's [Trevor:] Oh yes. We can send them we can s we can send any file we want via Micromail. We could we could send all the clients' reports via Micromail, once the project coordinator has agreed that he's happy with what's on there. [Hugh:] Good. Right. Agreed. We'll be briefed at the next meeting.... Isn't it a brave new world?... [Trevor:] Sorry. Erm... overtime. I've had er an informal erm... er package through from Paul, er just citing two of erm our staff on the recent erm thirteen week management overtime erm [Hugh:] I bet I can guess the names. [Roger:] guess one. [Trevor:] Have a guess. [Hugh:] ? [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] ? [Trevor:] Oh what a hero he is. Well mis [Terry:] Who? [Trevor:] Alwyn, Alwyn has shoved [Terry:] Eric. [Trevor:] has shoved Mr into second place. In thirteen weeks Alwyn has earned seven thousand one hundred pounds worth of overtime. [Roger:] Eh? How does he do? W what he do? [Trevor:] Well I mean even Mr in his heyday has never quite [Hugh:] Right. Now. Come on. [Trevor:] achieved that. [Hugh:] Yeah. So what have we got to do about it? [Trevor:] Th th th well i it's not, it's not whether or not [Hugh:] Is it justified? [Trevor:] i i it gotta be justified because Roger and Terry have signed it all off. [Hugh:] I mean I can understand that [Trevor:] In f in fact [Hugh:] I, I know, I know what Terry's problems have been over the past [Trevor:] Yeah. But the the point [Hugh:] ten weeks [Trevor:] the point that's, that, that er Paul's making is [Hugh:] but we need to get a grip on it. [Trevor:] he says, [reading] in the case of Ian the number of occasions where Ian has worked two hours on a Friday morning and then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. And Alwyn has been paid to stay at home on Friday [Hugh:] Probably [Trevor:] and then he's worked Friday Saturday []. Er [Hugh:] Oh. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Terry:] Just say that again. Alwyn has what? [Trevor:] He's, he's been paid to stay at home on a Friday [Terry:] Rest day. Yeah. [Trevor:] Rest day. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] And then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] To keep within the rules. [Hugh:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Trevor:] I right. He then says, [reading] if there's a continuous agr er... commitment for weekend working, should we apply the er extra weekend duty payment rather than excess overtime? Question mark []. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] That is a good question for Ian actually. And for our, for our R E set up. Our proposed R E set up. I mean we shouldn't be looking at [Dave:] [cough] [Hugh:] now we should be looking forward at our new organization. [Terry:] Yes. And we are. [Trevor:] Yeah. And tha that's all this is [Hugh:] Yeah. I think that's a very good idea. [Trevor:] just a, are we happy to see massive, it's surprising once people are on E D P one weekend in three or whatever or equivalent, their overtime a a a and their you know they actually [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] decide whether or not they really need to be on that site for fourteen hours or can they do what they need to do in four? [Terry:] Aye but working every weekend can i w i if, if it is every weekend is a lot of money, on E D P. [Roger:] Is it? [Terry:] Mhm. [Trevor:] Oh yes. I it's about one weekend in three's about seven percent isn't it? [Terry:] Yeah. So if it's every weekend it'll be about twenty twenty [Trevor:] Every weekend it's about twenty percent. [Terry:] odd percent. It's a lot of money. [Trevor:] Mind you not everybody has to work every weekend do they? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Roger:] Ian does. [Hugh:] No he does n't. [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] H h he won't when he's working for Terry. [Terry:] No. It is fair to s it is fa [Roger:] Really? More every day? [Terry:] it is fair to say that in the case of er in the case of Alwyn, erm because of the special circumstances where we didn't actually use a clerk of works ever on that job [Hugh:] Yeah. Terry I, I, I know the situation. [Terry:] so we staffed it but wi but we, but having said that we've gone to Adwick and we've set off, almost on the same rules. And, and my, that act those forms stayed on my desk for maybe two weeks whilst I were plotting and thinking what the hell I could do about [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] changing. But of course you can't it's after the event. The record [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] . But [Trevor:] Y y you don't do any overtime until somebody's signed it off and authorized it. [Terry:] Well it's all, it's all signed off and authorized. [Trevor:] Ah. [Terry:] But on Adwick we have decided, and I've told John or he's been informed, that because we've got a supervisor there I don't want him starting at six in the morning. [Hugh:] Good. [Terry:] He'll finish at six at night. [Hugh:] Brilliant. [Terry:] He's gonna work a standard day. So it does need managing you're quite right, and I'm, I was gobsmacked at how many hours were on. [Trevor:] Right. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] Well [Hugh:] Th the decision you were putting to us though Trevor, was whether we put somebody on extra duty payment? [Trevor:] That was just a, an option that Paul had suggested might [speaker003:] from York? [Trevor:] avoid some of these large amounts of overtime. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] It's up to Terry and Rog are to decide how he's got to safely man the job. [Hugh:] Well Terry, Terry's got more, more experience of, of this than anybody else around this table. [Trevor:] And it'll be Terry's responsibility in future. [Hugh:] So [Trevor:] So really that's [Hugh:] wh what do you feel about E D P? Is, is the question [Terry:] I'd have to talk about wi I could talk to Roger about it and see what [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] er the scenario is. As far as one off [Trevor:] Terry you can't go rushing back till we've got the new [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] erm the new R E outside parties [Terry:] Set up leg set up. And then [Hugh:] Think about when we [Trevor:] But, but really we, I mean we shouldn't be running up massive bills like this [Hugh:] We shouldn't. [Trevor:] cos that sort of overtime i th this [Terry:] You've gotta be [Trevor:] w if it's on weekends, there is virtually no contribution towards the overheads at all [Terry:] Okay. [Roger:] But if, if [Trevor:] from any of that [Roger:] if Ian isn't [Terry:] What you've also gotta [Roger:] doing it, somebody else will have [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] to. [Terry:] What, what you've also to bear in mind is [Roger:] You know erm [Trevor:] If, if that's the case Roger that's fine. [Hugh:] That's right. Provided that it [Trevor:] If it's genuine overtime I mean there is [Roger:] Well [Trevor:] erm [Roger:] Don't worry, we go through Ian's bloody time,tha that time sheet was a week being gone through, being checked. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Roger:] Because the DOPAC [Trevor:] Right. [Roger:] I got a DOPACS report saying he'd worked thirteen shifts out of fourteen. It turned out not be right er because he was [speaker003:] Yeah. [Roger:] booking it in as book twice stage you see. And that DOPACS for some reason was er [speaker003:] Clocking that up as a work day. [Trevor:] Right. [Terry:] Mm. I think the only danger of looking at E D P, is that if we're doing for the guys in the office, then what do we do with the supervisors? [Trevor:] Yeah. Our supervisors [Hugh:] It may be that they should be cos they are the ones that work more weekends than anybody. [Roger:] Yeah. W we've just highlighted two technical staff there, but what if we included supervisors? What would the picture [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] be? [Trevor:] Ah yeah. [Roger:] You know our work [Trevor:] But [Roger:] is at weekends isn't it? [Trevor:] I agree. [Hugh:] I, I don I think the only action that comes out of that is [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] that Terry and [Terry:] Needs controlling. [Hugh:] have a look at that and keep it within. [Terry:] We do control it but it is [Trevor:] There isn't an alternative to the supervisors. There isn't an E D P equivalent unless you start [speaker003:] Mm. [Trevor:] making supervisors [Hugh:] Management staff. [Trevor:] a different grade [Terry:] Management staff. That's right. [Hugh:] Okay. Anyway. So I'm, I'm gonna leave it to between [Trevor:] Shall I just throw these away then or do you want them to have a second look at or, yeah, I'll bin them. Right. [Terry:] Simon? [Trevor:] That's that. [Hugh:] I'll leave it between Roger [Trevor:] Er [Hugh:] and Terry to sort. [Dave:] [cough] [Trevor:] Right. Th the good housekeeping i is the only other [Hugh:] Consultation. [Trevor:] thing. Consultation date has been picked for three weeks on... Tuesday. [Terry:] And that'll be just as powerful a tool as the Scarborough conference. [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] Cos that's what's brassed people off. We've been mentioning this good housekeeping [Trevor:] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. [Nola:] What's the date? [Trevor:] It's, it's the Tuesday we get back from [Hugh:] Put it in your diary down. [Trevor:] erm Scarborough. Tuesday after. Yes. [Hugh:] That one's team brief in. [Trevor:] Twenty fifth of May. [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] Twenty fifth. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Er the document will be with the staff reps and I will circulate yourselves, and your staff, erm... by the end of the next week. Hopefully I'll get you an early copy, not with the J Ds and everything but certainly with the left hand side, and the right hand side of the document and the final version of the document with charts [Dave:] What date was it? [Trevor:] erm [Hugh:] Twenty fifth of May. [Trevor:] mid next week and then give you a day or so to look at it. And I will be sending it out by next Friday. So the staff reps will have it for at least a fortnight. [Hugh:] Good. [Trevor:] Okay? The job descriptions have all finally been evaluated. and as he's quality only run on perhaps another nine months or a year or whatever, and then revert to the same job description as John [Hugh:] John [Trevor:] .... So perhaps you would like to break that to Dennis. Before it becomes common knowledge on, on the documentation. [Jim:] Who who's representing management at this consultation? [Hugh:] The management staff reps. Which are [speaker003:] ? [Jim:] No. The management team. [Hugh:] Oh. There's er Trevor and I. [Jim:] Right. [Hugh:] Unless you wish to [Jim:] No. I just [Trevor:] I mean most of it [Jim:] wanna know what, what involvement there was. [Trevor:] Yeah. M most of it is just formalizing what we're doing and formalizing the changes in the establishment [Jim:] Yeah. [Trevor:] that was brought about by, er the early retirement [Hugh:] Th there'll be a personnel [Terry:] How is it? [Hugh:] person there to take minutes? [Trevor:] Oh yes. [Terry:] Ho? The figures that went forward for, for Dennis' job... presumably the same as last time? [Trevor:] No. Because if you remember last time Dennis had three subsections working for him and he's got the equivalent of two now [Terry:] Oh right. yeah. Right.. Okay. [Trevor:] and the quality team was an M S two and an M S one, and it's now only an [Terry:] And it's now, yeah. [Trevor:] M S two. [Terry:] Fine. [Trevor:] So there's been shrinking. [Hugh:] Terry I've [Terry:] Good. [Hugh:] I've already primed, I've already told Dennis quietly. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Right. Okay. [Terry:] And there's no problem There's no problems as far as he's concerned. [Trevor:] I mean i it'll be a, if Dennis was serious about wanting to go, he'll be er [LAUGHTER] he'll be able to say, look, I'm redundant. [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] I'm displaced. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] Buggers us up promotion-wise in future again but [Trevor:] Well i it was never on that he was gonna keep the quality leg after he'd gone. [Hugh:] No. Well once he'd lost that he would have lost the [Terry:] No. No. Yeah. [Hugh:] grade anyhow. Like the other people lost the grade. [Trevor:] So er that really... means that i a all being well we've sorted that. What I would like to try and get personnel's agreement to, if a if at all possible, is that we don't do this nonsense of having to close list our staff to jobs that we know we're gonna put them into. I would like to try and sort that out on the day apart from the [Hugh:] That's sloppy. [Trevor:] I think there's only one post, and it's in Jim's office, where there are too many M S twos existing for the future M S two posts that, that, that we've got on the document. Apart from that scenario where those people will have to apply for their jobs, and the T Os across the board [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] where Roger's getting rid of more T O posts than we've actually got sitting [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] tenants in them. I think that the rest of the situation should be more or less a straight across thing, and I'm gonna see if we can get Paul [Hugh:] Just slot, slot them in [Roger:] Well [Hugh:] a and not have to posts. [Trevor:] Well we can identify the P M T posts anyway so there'll be [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] no problem there. It's the management staff [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] posts. We would want to put the people across into what er are actually their existing jobs. [Hugh:] I would go along with that. [Roger:] Er that is not as simple as you say though [Terry:] No. [Roger:] Trevor [Trevor:] No. [Roger:] I have Colin as an M S three. [Trevor:] Of course y but, but he is an M S three [Terry:] So what? [Trevor:] and under the close listing jobs, Roger [Hugh:] He'll be at M S three. [Trevor:] he will be at an M S three. [Terry:] M S three. [Hugh:] And he will be post. [Trevor:] He will be close listed into an M S three post. [Roger:] But we said, ah. but there is not, he cannot occupy an M S three design post with [Trevor:] Roger [Roger:] the new [Terry:] He's doing it now. [Trevor:] he's carrying he is in the post at the moment [Roger:] do with outside parties. [Trevor:] No. No. He isn't. [Hugh:] He isn't. [Trevor:] He is doing a job in your office as an assistant section engineer at the moment. [Roger:] Dealing with outside party work. [Trevor:] No. No. No. No. He's [Roger:] [shouting] Well that's what he's doing [] cos that's all he can do. [Trevor:] His job description, his job description. Right. [Hugh:] His job description is the same as everybody else's. [Trevor:] If at the [Roger:] Well let's not play on words. [Trevor:] Well okay then. [speaker003:] No. No. [Trevor:] If at the end of the day once we have gone through the goo the good housekeena keeping exercise and he has been put into an M S three post that you think he is not capable of, then you've got two options. You have got to train that person which you could have been doing for years and [Hugh:] for years. [Trevor:] haven't. You [Roger:] Now come off it. Come off [Terry:] I think Roger's Roger has, we might not like it but Roger may well have a point cos he doesn't ha [Trevor:] Yeah I, I [Terry:] he doesn't have to put Colin in an M S three just because you've got a vacancy. [Trevor:] Hang on. I'm c look let me just give him the two options. The two options are, one you train somebody so that you give them additional training so they [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] can do the job. Or two you take the erm the managerial action which is available for you,t to take him out of there and put him into a different post, because he's not capable of doing. [Roger:] Or the yes. A managerial action could be that he transfers with the outside party services. [Terry:] You can't cos. [Trevor:] You can't because they haven't got another job. [Terry:] There isn't a job in there. [Hugh:] There is no three in there. [Terry:] There is no three in there. [Trevor:] There is no three in there. [Roger:] No but there you have, you'll have three vacancies won't you? [Terry:] No. [Roger:] You've, you've no M S three [Hugh:] As what? [Roger:] vacancies? [Hugh:] I mean what you're basically saying [Terry:] As what? [Hugh:] is that I don't want him so [Trevor:] You've got two M S sh [Hugh:] so I'll hand over to, to. [Roger:] No. I'm saying he might be more [Terry:] With the R E the R E [Roger:] doing that job [Terry:] set up [Roger:] Mm? [Terry:] The R E set up.... [Hugh:] It is a problem [Trevor:] You're gonna have to put Ian [Roger:] It's a big problem. [Trevor:] you're gonna have to put [Hugh:] but I [Trevor:] Ian in one of those two jobs. One of those three jobs aren't you? [Terry:] The R E set up. [Trevor:] The R E set up. The R E's outside [Roger:] Am I? [Trevor:] party job. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] And then you're gonna be faced with, with two people at the moment, erm that do the running around on the outside party [Terry:] Nick and Steve. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] I, I think what we [Terry:] But I'm not [Hugh:] I think the process we should go through is a. [Terry:] You wanna be careful there because I'm not tak I'm not necessarily taking those. [Hugh:] Mm. The process we will go through [Trevor:] Well that [Hugh:] we will slot, we'll [Trevor:] Yeah. That will [Hugh:] slot people in and we've, we I I mean i if we look at the Colin situation. Colin is, is currently occupying an M S three job within your office. And, and within the rules of the game we can do nothing other than [Trevor:] Put him into that [Hugh:] put him into that post. Now acknowledging what you say Rog, if you consider he can't do that work, then as the next phase what we're gonna have to do, you and I, is to see what action we can take. Me with an overview of the organization, to see if there is anywhere else we can put him, and off, off the top I can't think of anywhere. Erm but then we, we w we need to start thinking about... how we get the best out of Colin. Cos that's what it's all about isn't it? [Roger:] well we've been trying to think how we could get the best out of Colin for the past four bloody years. Remember Colin was put into that job er because he was displaced, he didn't want to go into the job. Erm we know where there is a very good place [Trevor:] Absolutely. [Roger:] that Colin could go and do a good job [speaker003:] Send him there. [Roger:] and he would maybe be a damn sight happier than he will be if he stays behind. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Roger:] And it's still an Intercity [Hugh:] Have done. [Roger:] post. [Trevor:] What did he say? [speaker003:] spoken to him. [Trevor:] What did he say?... [Hugh:] Tt. He said they'd been through the a the er interview process and they've chosen who they want. [Roger:] But it's still at your, if it was going to another sector I could understand that attitude, but when it is being, it's still within Intercity, I just cannot understand that that is the attitude we take. [Hugh:] Terry er sorry Roger if, if I were interviewing for posts, I would appoint, and you know full well I would, the people that I thought were best for that job. And I would make that judgement and I would appoint it. That is precisely what Kim and Kevin have done. I have tried to er persuade him that, that Colin would be good for that job.... End of story as I see it. [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] And he is now our responsibility, and we're gonna have to er... determine what the right management action is. He's a chartered engineer. I mean he's no nugget he's er [Trevor:] And he will be carrying out the dut he will be carrying out the duties [Hugh:] Well [Trevor:] not of a subsection leader Roger but of a project, senior project engineer. [Roger:] Senior project engineer. [Trevor:] Yeah. Well y [Roger:] Which means he might have to do some design. [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] And wh why not? We send him on a B S five four double O course. [Trevor:] That's right. We can train him and [Hugh:] And I, I personally believe that, I personally believe that Colin has got ability if we... exploit it.... [Roger:] It's very easy to say that [Hugh:] Yes. It is. [Roger:] and we we have tried and tried but you cannot light the spark.... [Terry:] . Can I suggest we er [Trevor:] Perhaps he might he better off in the works office? [Roger:] Yeah well he comes to work from nine till five [Jim:] I suggest you turn the tape recorder off. [Roger:] and that's it. [Terry:] [sigh] Ca can we move on? [Hugh:] Terry [Terry:] Because w we're actually stuck on one person [Trevor:] Yeah. Yeah. We we are. We're getting [Terry:] The principle I would like to put forward is that if we are gonna place is that Trevor on behalf of you comes round and talks to each of us to make sure that what yo what you're gonna propose [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] fits with our feelings. [Hugh:] Splendid idea. [Trevor:] Yeah. I mean we we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to be very careful with the M S twos anyway, because of these two twos down in the [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] works office. Perhaps [Terry:] Well yeah. No good thinking he's sending [Trevor:] [cough] [Terry:] of in fact [Trevor:] No. I I'm sure that the twos we're gonna have to close list [Terry:] I think you will. Anyway [Trevor:] erm [Terry:] talk it through with us. [Dave:] Okay. [Hugh:] We, we can make an assumption that we're gonna get the consultation through as, as we've as we've intended. [Terry:] and the others. Yeah. [Hugh:] If there are any changes they will be very marginal. I mean there will [Trevor:] Right. [Hugh:] be on grades for a start because our jobs evaluated. [Terry:] Mm. [Hugh:] And I'm not sure where any changes would be. [Trevor:] Well you've got some flexibility on the [Terry:] Well let's go through the philosophy. [Trevor:] P and T grades but that's all. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] You can, you can, you can shadow list or whatever it's called [Hugh:] But that's, that's about all. So we can make an assumption and I think we should do that before twenty fifth of May. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] We should go through a process o of this group of slotting, in accordance with the rules, and get that [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] slotting done so we have a template there that we can deal with on the twenty fifth. [Terry:] Right. [Trevor:] When we've got the left and right hand side of the document which Joan's well on with at the moment, we can pencil in very lightly the jobs [Hugh:] Pencil yeah [Trevor:] that we see going straight across [Hugh:] We'll we'll agree them with you and then we'll, we'll [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] use that as a template. [Terry:] Right. [Trevor:] I'll come round each of you and, and do that. [Hugh:] Okay. Good. [Trevor:] Cos yours is gonna be complicated. [Hugh:] Right. Any, any more any other businesses? Because I would like deal with the erm [Terry:] Erm... I've... I have a question. Is, is i I thought we were [Hugh:] Okay. [Terry:] doing erm for some unknown reason rule reviewing. [speaker003:] Oh. [Trevor:] That's this afternoon. [Terry:] Not on the agenda. [Trevor:] Not on the [Nola:] Well I had to do that agenda when Hugh wasn't here, so [Trevor:] I'll go and get Andrew and I'll just check with Steve that erm [Hugh:] He's gonna rule review us. [Trevor:] he is rule reviewing [Hugh:] Good. [Trevor:] us this afternoon. But I've already been done so [Hugh:] Any other business? Good. Thanks. That was quite a useful move. The main thing is that th the financial commentary. What I would like to do with the financi financial commentary, is because it is, is an historic document, I would like to pull out a few plums which we can team brief. And [Dave:] What about us finding out what the is like? [Hugh:] It is. [Dave:] We're only doing it for and. [Hugh:] may well be. We'll put half a mind on it. [Terry:] I, I'm yeah. I haven't seen it. [Hugh:] Alright? [speaker003:] Haven't you seen it? [Terry:] Until just now. passed down [speaker003:] Yes. [Terry:] this morning? [Jim:] Er bu late last night.... [Hugh:] I mean [Terry:] I think we sho we could have done with some time to look at it really. [Hugh:] unless Andrew's dropped some enormous goolies, I can't see that the plums that I've picked out should be [Terry:] We [Hugh:] all that significant. [Terry:] I ca sorry. I can see something in here you've got that disappoints me having spoken to Andrew about it. Er and that's that he's pulled out here the income generated by various departments. And for once thank goodness he's split works and bridges by taking the [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] supervision out which is what I asked him to do. But what I did say, and he said he could do it, was to divide up, to compare us, that he could divide up the profitability and I'm not sure that, you know i in terms of [Hugh:] [whispering] [] [Terry:] how many staff did Rog have? How many staff did I have? And what does that equate to? In terms of income? Cos that's the relevant part is how much each individual is, is erm [Hugh:] It's got a profitability on, on page three. [Terry:] Page three. Let me have a look. As I say I've only just started [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] flicking through it. Erm... there's the profit and loss. Return [whispering] []... I don't quite unders can somebody tell me what each indiv I mean basically I would have expected to see the money earned divided by the, the number of staff telling me how much [Jim:] Right. You're talking about contribution to the fee earning then? Rather than [Terry:] Yes. [Jim:] That's been dropped.... [Terry:] So what did? What's, what's number three of profitability mean? [Hugh:] Number three. You've got a return on expenditure for your function of eight point nine percent. In other words tha that is your profit. Eight point nine percent and that's er that's [Terry:] No. That's that's my contribution towards the total of the group isn't it? [Hugh:] No. It's a return on expenditure. If your [Terry:] If I've read it right. [Hugh:] if your overall costs, which are on the sheet before that Terry [Terry:] Right. I'm with you. Yeah. [Hugh:] are one million and ninety nine pounds, it costs to run your organization. [Terry:] Divided by the staff. Ah. So that is it then. [Hugh:] Alright? [Terry:] That's it. Good. [Hugh:] So he's got it there and then what he's done then, is he's deducted the non fee earning element of the organization. Pro-rata'd that through the [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] functions and come up with a revised profit and loss.... Okay? [Terry:] I don't see how the supervisor can make a loss. Do you? [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] Well it's, it's, it's Trevor's organization isn't it that's being [Roger:] I'm non long long time you know. [Jim:] charged off against each other 's. [Terry:] But all their time's chargeable. [Roger:] that time. [Terry:] All their time's chargeable for [Jim:] No. No. No. They they'll have to take a share [speaker003:] Well don't ask me. [Jim:] of the overheads [Roger:] Yeah. They charge to overheads if they weren't doing a job. [Hugh:] But they don't,co could be Roger. Yeah. [Roger:] But, or you have the tendency [Hugh:] It could be [Roger:] to put two people on a job when one would have done. [Hugh:] Well yeah. It co [Roger:] You know. [Hugh:] er it could be that either we're not recovering costs on, on that basis or [Terry:] costs on the bill like [Hugh:] perhaps [Jim:] Ah. [Hugh:] that the er charge that we're charging the client isn't high enough [Terry:] [whispering] [] don't we? [Hugh:] Well it isn't. [Terry:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] hours [Hugh:] To cover the overheads in that er appointment. [Terry:] Yeah. That's the problem. [Hugh:] I mean that's, that's the way I read it.... So w we're not charging out for them at a high enough rate. Marginally. [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] For who sorry? [Hugh:] supervisors. [Terry:] The problem with work supervisors is I think we hinted before, if you think about it, is the fact that our plans and what have you all go forward assuming it's so many hours. It doesn't take in the fact that you're actually paying them double time for overtime. [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] And, and one and a half times. [Roger:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] And they're [Hugh:] Mm. [Roger:] working overtime [Terry:] So the more overtime you work as I've said before the less efficient we become. In terms of profitability. [Roger:] What's happened here?... [Hugh:] Right. [speaker003:] There was a co [Terry:] Cockup? [speaker003:] cockup with the one of the formulas.... [Terry:] Thank you. [Norman:] Tt ruins. Ruins. [Terry:] So which bit's the? [Trevor:] So whi which are these replacing Andrew? [Roger:] Er they're page three [Terry:] Page four [Trevor:] Page three. [Terry:] a second. [speaker003:] Mm. [Terry:] Rip that off there [Hugh:] Which part of page three [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] has been changed then? [Trevor:] All of page [Terry:] All of it. So w so completely new. Oh. Hang on. [Hugh:] No it isn't. It's. [speaker003:] Oh God. [Trevor:] Ah. [Norman:] different? What's different? [speaker003:] Or shall I just put on the? [Hugh:] There's only the bottom [speaker003:] It's only [Hugh:] There's only the bottom. [speaker003:] There's only the bottom. The table table [Hugh:] table at the bottom. [speaker003:] It's just the table. [Roger:] So... [Hugh:] So it's that, it's, it's only that table there? And as far as I'm concerned it doesn't make any significant difference [Terry:] gone down. [Hugh:] to my analysis. So is that there on page three? [speaker003:] . Option erm sorry, point three.... On page three yeah. [Hugh:] Right. It's just those numbers then isn't it? [speaker003:] It's just those numbers. Yeah. [Trevor:] So those two pages [Hugh:] Again. [speaker003:] Erm [Trevor:] want replacing. [Hugh:] I'm happy about that. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Terry:] Yeah.... [Hugh:] And then in the [Terry:] I'm not [speaker003:] [cough] [Hugh:] Here's an extra sheet. [speaker003:] These are extra sheets. [Roger:] Right. [Hugh:] Good. [Roger:] That one there. [Trevor:] Yeah. I know. [Roger:] be [Terry:] I can't be dealing with all [Hugh:] Oh good. [Terry:] these bloody changes. [Hugh:] Pro capita fee earning bids. [speaker003:] [whispering] Yes []. [Hugh:] Al 's staff. Hugh 's staff.... Right. So there's an extra sheet three B. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] First of all can I say, it's a good report, [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and thank you Andrew. Well done. Erm the next question I ask is, how do we make staff aware of the content? Well we discussed that early on, we're gonna actually issue this as part of our annual report. And it's cos I think it's important that [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] staff do understand er I, I mean I wonder how many of our staff understand how much detail we look at and have available? [Norman:] Probably very few. [Hugh:] Yeah. And I think it's important that they, they should know the, the amount of information that is available, and how I think, how well we do monitor er our financial performance. Cos i it is important. [Jim:] Yeah. It's also [Hugh:] Good. [Jim:] important our staff are educated in their effect on this. [Trevor:] Yes. [Jim:] Cos I don't think, well I've got to speak for B E S. I have a number of staff who just do not see, that all of this is generated by them. [Trevor:] Yes cos it all comes out of DOPACS without DOPACS you haven't got any of this. [Jim:] Every single thing on here comes out of that [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] report they make on the [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] income side. [speaker003:] So if they balls it up we get false [Trevor:] Yeah. [speaker003:] figures. [Trevor:] If the turn around documents are wrong [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] But how do we get that across? [Jim:] Well I think that has to be said. I think that ought to be said to staff. [Hugh:] Right. I mean I'm gonna suggest [Roger:] When when this is. [Hugh:] that t th that that w we team brief certain aspects of this today. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Erm [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and I'm gonna suggest that you take that along with you and you say, look, this is what you get, er whenever we want it. This is the end of year report. Erm the first thing I'm,I I would like t t to draw out is that at the end of the year we made a profit of a hundred sixty thousand pounds. [speaker003:] A hundred and ninety. [Roger:] Where does it say that? [Hugh:] ? [speaker003:] A hundred and ninety. [Hugh:] A hundred and ninety thousand [Roger:] Where does it say that? [speaker003:] ?... [Hugh:] That is, it was in er [speaker003:] It's at the bottom of page. [Terry:] Bottom of page three it is. [Trevor:] Bottom of page t new page three? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] A hundred and ninety thousand pounds. Thank you for that er Andrew.... Okay? So well done lads. That's pretty good in a, in a year that has been fairly tough.... That's the good news. The next point I would raise, and this is er by looking at item three on page one, is the income split by business and profit centre [Roger:] The forty five for Regional Railways [Hugh:] which, yeah. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] And I would like to draw out of there the fact that eighteen percent of our work is for Intercity, forty five percent is for Regional Railways [Terry:] Sorry Jim. [Hugh:] and sixteen percent for Network South East. If you add those two up they come to about sixty one percent nearly sixty two percent.... Those two areas of work, two thirds of our work, I see as being areas of risk. Because Croydon are anxious to maintain, or to take all the work, for Network [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] South East. Glasgow and Birmingham are anxious to take all the work for Regional Railways. The way that we continue, our clients, the ones that we contract with, are anxious to continue working with us. That is because we've given them good service over the past three years. And it's important for our staff to be aware of that, and to realize that we have gotta continue to give, those two clients I believe in particular, the best possible service we can provide.... [Jim:] We're going down the Swanee if we don't. [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] So that, that was message number two. [speaker003:] We did get some rates from Glasgow didn't we? Mm. [Terry:] Yeah [Trevor:] Yes. [Terry:] we got, theirs were higher than ours. [Trevor:] Theirs were higher than ours. [Hugh:] Yeah? [speaker003:] Yeah. [cough] [Hugh:] Good.... Erm... in item four I didn't understand item four. [speaker003:] Mm. This is money that we've lost. [Terry:] These are the balls-ups. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] These are the jobs that we've transferred money or given money back. [Hugh:] Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] I, I don't intend to spend any time on that at all we went through it last time [Trevor:] No it's just, it's just an opportunity [Roger:] Oh. Green Bottom being debited to bridge? Come on. It's joint. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Fair enough. [Hugh:] Roger what does it matter? [speaker003:] does it matter? [Hugh:] As a group I mean the other thing that surprised me a bit, I, I spoke to Ken yesterday and said, how did you receive? How was the fifty thousand pound credit received for Green Bottom? And he said, oh yes, he said, Roger told me about that, he said, I didn't even know we were getting that. surprised me. [Trevor:] He's a project coordinator. [Hugh:] Right. Fine. [Trevor:] I mean Ro R Roger advised the client's agent in the normal way I mean [speaker003:] If somebody's accepted the, the fifty thousand that we passed [Hugh:] Good. [speaker003:] back [Hugh:] It wou anyway thank you for that. [Dave:] I would. [Hugh:] It was just that i it was almost in passing he said, well yeah Roger told me about that. And it wasn't just a sort of formal thing or anything, that was the impression I got. I may be wrong. [Roger:] Mm. I told him about it. Yes. [Hugh:] Formally? [Roger:] But er, mm? [Hugh:] Formally? [Roger:] Only in conversa only verbally, I haven't written to him and told him. [speaker003:] Oh. [Roger:] Because I asked you and remember I rang you up about a week, a week ago and said, what, which number have you credited? And you said you didn't know yet. [Trevor:] That's right. But er I, I erm Andrew sent off er through I B I S because we were [Roger:] Yeah. [Trevor:] quite close to the, the, the sort of er gates coming down on us, fifty thousand pounds. And I told y I said to y er before he did that I said, would it cause a client a problem if we gave them back some money? [speaker003:] Right. [Trevor:] And you said, no [speaker003:] No. [Trevor:] they'll be delighted. And I said, would you clear that with him then and tell him that it's coming? Erm a as you're the project coordinator and I'll, I'll get it into the system? [Hugh:] Right. Our objective, the objective of giving a fifty thousand pounds refund on Green Bottom, was twofold. One was to erm reimburse them for er errors that we feel that er, we could have avoided. But the second one was to actually make it a bit of bloody exercise in marketing. Erm and I think that a well I don't think, it's essential that we send Regional Railways a letter, which says that we have decided to refund this, erm to assist them in er... financially.? [Roger:] Yeah. This will be, don't you see I'm in the process of answering a letter to Regional Railways, on the whole finances of... er Leeds North Western, and I needed to know which number you'd actually [speaker003:] Mm. [Roger:] credited. [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] Right. [Roger:] Because there are various er numbers that I know [Trevor:] well John'll [Hugh:] Rog [Roger:] and their letter if you do that will be done. [Hugh:] for me? Good. Good lad. Fine. No problem. Erm i in actual fact the,th the decision to do that, inadvertently, is, is an absolute masterstroke, because I know that er Ken is in real problems with fees for the electrification people. And he's gon they are overspending by something like one point one million. So any contributions from [Trevor:] Oh we'll have it back then. [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] any contribution from us [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Drop in the ocean []. [Hugh:] er is, is very handsomely received. So it was a good move that. Erm good.... Next thing I got on was erm... [Terry:] There's two on that page by the way, two B is the item I mentioned about graduates isn't it? Full cost of the graduate trainees [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] increases has increased the in expenditure [Trevor:] Yes because previous to this year, erm the R C E has been picking up a proportion of their costs.... [Hugh:] So the next message that I was going to... or the next thing I was concerned about really, was on page three, [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] item two, profitability. Er I think tha that we need to look at... why there is such a significant difference in profitability, between the bridge and P Way, who are making what would appear to be a reasonable amount, er and the other four sections. And all, all I'm looking for there are the reasons for those figures being so much different from bridge and P Way. And [Jim:] Some of it by clever accounting on the part of Andrew [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] by carrying some of the profit forward from last year to this year. [Trevor:] Yes I mean th that's a point tha that's erm put on there. If we, if we put the profit carried forward er that we'd earned this year on erm the Upminster Signal thing, [speaker003:] two hundred and forty nine thousand wasn't it? [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker003:] Which is another three percent isn't it? Which took it [Hugh:] Mm. [speaker003:] up to nearly seven point nine Mm. for B E S. [Dave:] We can look at the [Hugh:] Co? What, what I'm looking for i i are two things really. One is the reasons why there's such a difference,a and two is do we need to take any action? And really Andrew what I want you and Trevor, what I want you and Andrew to do is, is to give me answers to that. [speaker003:] Most of this I would think, could be [Hugh:] I I don't want thinks I want facts. [Dave:] No. [speaker003:] Oh yeah. [Hugh:] Right? I want to know what the difference is, and I want to know whether we need to take action or what? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Okay? So if you could do that for the next meeting I'd be grateful. [Trevor:] Do you want an analysis of the, of the [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] profit? [Terry:] Why there's a difference. [Hugh:] That's right.... Now the next thing erm, on the same page was, having taken away the,th th the non fee earning elements it actually pushed, and I'm looking at your revised sheet now [speaker003:] Yes. [Hugh:] it pushed B E S work supervisors and P Q S into a, a loss making situation, admittedly only marginally. Erm and, and that wants to be part of that exercise, really, of, of looking at the reasons a a and telling us whether we need to take any action. [Trevor:] Well she's picked it up [Roger:] Five thousand loss on a works supervisor. [speaker003:] And . Yes. [Terry:] It means the rates are wrong for works supervisors doesn't it? [Trevor:] No. It means the rates are virtually right doesn't it? What we've charged, what we've charged the supervisors off with, is the full time C O three plus er pager, self-owned transport [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] me and er [Terry:] Well you got one [Hugh:] Well the question then is do we need to be charging work supervisors [Trevor:] and [Hugh:] out a to our clients at a higher rate in future? [Terry:] That's what I'm saying. Yes. [Trevor:] Well [Terry:] Because of the overtime scenario. Make some money.... It's a part that even [Trevor:] Roger's been complaining to me [Roger:] Ah [Trevor:] that the supervisor rate is far too high a a and that's one of the reasons [Hugh:] But we're losing money on it. [Terry:] Losing money on it. Yeah. How can it be too high? [Trevor:] Well we are losing... we're breaking even on it. We're not [Terry:] It says we're losing money there. [Hugh:] The group as a whole [Trevor:] You co you could turn round and say, alright they didn't have a full time C O three they had [Roger:] But supervisor [Hugh:] Right. [Roger:] rate is,i i is that salary [Hugh:] Doesn't matter. [Roger:] divided by sixteen hundred times two point six?... [Trevor:] No. [Roger:] No. [Trevor:] No. It's been reduced. Because of you. [Roger:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Right. I I'll buy that. One thousand pounds on, what's the total expenditure? [Terry:] No. Five thousand pounds. [Roger:] Five thousand. [Trevor:] Five thousand pounds on five hundred [Hugh:] Thousand. [Trevor:] thousand [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] Is it? [Trevor:] One percent. [Jim:] B E S has more or less broken even as well as you see. Th this [Hugh:] Yeah. But really why? I mean we, we should be [Jim:] But I mean we all are. [Hugh:] targeting at making a modest profit. [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] We're targeted at making a modest [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] profit for the group. [Terry:] Group. [Trevor:] Right? The modest [speaker003:] That's right. [Trevor:] profit for the group is a hundred and ninety thousand pounds. [Hugh:] Which is superb. Jus just about [Trevor:] Right. [Hugh:] right. [Trevor:] Okay. If we, if we had targeted making a profit of say five hundred and sixty five thousand pounds just for instance [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] everybody would have made [Hugh:] A sound argument. [Trevor:] a reasonable profit but some would have made more than others. When you're looking at an,a a a an average profit for the group erm you [Terry:] I'll tell you what it's a sound argument for the time being but it's not a sound argument if we're involved in a management buy out. [Jim:] Aye but you've gotta [speaker003:] Ah yes. [Jim:] you've gotta look at [Hugh:] Ah y y [Trevor:] alternatives. You gotta decide whether or not one service allows [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] you to provide another one or not. [Terry:] embarrassing in future. [Jim:] You've gotta look at your rates there's a lot of things you've gotta [Trevor:] You see if you'd tagged, if you'd added the work supervisor costs into Roger's cost centre... there would have been no worries. You wouldn't have even noticed that they were making th they were only just breaking even. [speaker003:] And also the works supervisor, they've added nearly twenty eight thousand pounds to the organization. [Trevor:] They've made a contribution towards the costs, and if, if we hadn't got the supervisors then you would have all made a proportion [Roger:] Mm [Trevor:] less of that profit, because that twenty eight thousand pounds would have had to have been found by somebody else. [Terry:] I, I must be er [speaker003:] ? [Terry:] Yeah but the net isn b the net cost is five less, five thousand lost not twenty eight in. [Trevor:] No. No. No. No. [Terry:] You're five out. [speaker003:] If you took the work supervisors out [cough] out the group all together [Terry:] Yes. [speaker003:] you would be twenty eight thousand pounds less. because you still have the same organization. [Trevor:] You'd still have the quality manager the safety engineer and Hugh and Nola to pay. [speaker003:] twenty one percent [Trevor:] And i they are making a positive contribution of twenty eight thousand pounds towards those overheads [Hugh:] Right.... Gents I, I don't think it's worth spending that much time on that. I, I mean I, I wanted to raise that. I'm reasonably convinced [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] well I am convinced by Andrew's explanation... erm I would like to say in terms of when we look at the staff costs against budget, and we came in at only eleven thousand pounds less, er I think that is a erm... that we, we, we can congratulate our business manager, on the good control that's been exercised over the past year. Is that reasonable? [speaker003:] There was a th [Hugh:] Jiggery-pokery? [speaker003:] . More luck than good [Trevor:] I think so because I don't know where we got [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] what with the amount of to-ing and fro-ing with agency staff and vacancies er that we've got erm [speaker003:] And the graduates initially were only putting in about a hundred and thirty three thousand and they came out as four and a half. [Hugh:] Right. Oh well I take back what I said then. [Trevor:] Please take it back. Because that is bound to be a volatile part of the business. [Terry:] Can I? I'm, I'm not an accountant or an economist [speaker003:] No. [Terry:] or anything like that. [Roger:] But by God, you've got a lot of money. Yeah. [Terry:] But, bloody wish we had. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] But one thing that is very relevant which, which you've gotta think about is that, we all thought Operation Quickspend was great news didn't we? [Hugh:] Yes. [Trevor:] It's bad news isn't it? [Terry:] We did. It's absolutely the worst type of business we ought to be [Roger:] Hear hear. [Terry:] doing. [Hugh:] I'll buy that. [Terry:] Because it involves staff in overtime [Trevor:] Yeah. Which [Terry:] to get the job done which we cannot recover. [Roger:] And it meant that jobs you'd already got planned [Terry:] So that's [Roger:] were thrown into chaos [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] anyway [Trevor:] But [Roger:] But [Terry:] think it's good business when it's really bad news. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Hugh:] I bad news Terry but it's work. [Trevor:] It's bad news, it's bad news on a time basis. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] It's good news if we do it on a fixed fee and say, we have had to enhance some of our rates [Terry:] Correct. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] to cover certain bits and [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] pieces. [Terry:] Correct. But we Yeah. [Roger:] But it's a good marketing exercise the fact that you do it. [Terry:] It is and in terms of [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] profitability [Roger:] You can turn round and say [speaker003:] Get lost. [Terry:] it's destroyed the figures. [Roger:] no use going to York they can't. [Terry:] Yeah but the the funny thing was that if we hadn't of done Quickspend, you'd have been looking at figures that showed a lot more profitability. [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Oh. [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker003:] Er? [Terry:] You would. [Trevor:] No. I think [Terry:] It would because the overtime [Trevor:] the same profit. [speaker003:] If you're charging off er an M S two on a twenty four pound an hour [Terry:] It's the supervisors that are the problem. [Trevor:] The supervisors when they work double time [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] contribute something like about fifty P an hour towards the overheads. [Terry:] That's all. [Trevor:] It is a positive contribution though [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] a and, and their standard their standard year,the their standard year [Terry:] But their expenses you. [Trevor:] does... ah ri yes. There's the expenses. [Terry:] There's all their expenses. [Trevor:] But their standard year does erm make the normal [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] contribution [Terry:] Anyway [Trevor:] towards the overheads. [Terry:] It's not quite the bonanza we think it [Hugh:] Do we need? [Terry:] is when you're doing a Quickspend. You think [Hugh:] No. [Terry:] great! You know loads of work. money in but in actual fact it's, it's going out faster than it's coming in.... [speaker003:] No i [Hugh:] Thanks for pointing that out Terry [Trevor:] No. I i i it's not. But i it's [Terry:] But [Hugh:] Well you have raised a point and that is that [speaker003:] No. [Hugh:] the over the next years [Terry:] We just spent seven thousand quid on Alwyn that's non-recoverable because of Quickspend. [Hugh:] Te the important message that you're, you've raised and it is a very important one, is that over the next years, I mean we, we will have to change the way that we charge for [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] that service. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] I mean at the moment we can't. There's no benefit to us. All we would do is end up making a bigger profit [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] which, which we would just have [Terry:] Do you think? [Hugh:] to put into limbo. [Terry:] Sorry. Andrew didn't think I was right there. [Trevor:] He's not. [Terry:] You, you [Trevor:] No. [Terry:] you, you sh you shook you head when I said Alwyn had made a loss. [Trevor:] No. Yes. [speaker003:] He would have earned more income on the seven thousand pounds. [Trevor:] He would because some of it is only time and a third [Terry:] No. That seven thousand was only the overtime payment. [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] He was getting paid standard time anyway and the hours going forward on DOPACS [Roger:] seven thousand [Terry:] for site supervision would only be straightforward hours. [Trevor:] Yes. But if, if, if Alwyn makes his normal contribution during his thirty six and a half hour week [Roger:] Two point six. [Trevor:] then if we're charging him out at roughly two point one, which I think we are something like that with our discount [Hugh:] He's already covered his overheads. [Trevor:] he's covered his overheads. If we pay him at time and three quarters which is the most we can pay him, we're still making point six of a er on top of that. [speaker003:] The contribution that he actually earns is. [Terry:] I can't believe you're telling me the truth because that would mean if everybody worked overtime on that basis, we'd all still making a profit. [Hugh:] Yes. [Roger:] much though. [Terry:] Can't work. [Trevor:] You don't make very much but you make a bit. [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] It can't be true cos [] [Trevor:] As a percentage [Roger:] Have a look [speaker003:] It's close. [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] it ca I mean that just [] can't be true. [Trevor:] Alright. [Hugh:] Right. Next thing. [Jim:] Can I raise one final point on this? And that is I think the costs [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] the on-costs er to B E S, and it's pro-rata to the others, of fifty six thousand pounds for services largely at the business planning manager. I would like to know what I get for that. [Hugh:] Right. Well [Jim:] That's equivalent to two members of staff. [Hugh:] I w I was coming, I was coming almost to that Jim. Do you mind if I just [Jim:] No. [Hugh:] raise a, a very fundamental point? And this is i if I take it t to sheet ten, which is the staff numbers statement. [speaker003:] Is this with Irish? No? [Hugh:] No.... Staff numbers statement erm... and, and we look at the right hand column, you will find that we have a hundred and thirty nine fee earning people, and fifty eight support. Which works out as a percentage, that twenty nine percent of our staff the moment are support staff. I believe that is too high.... [Jim:] So do I. [speaker003:] Some are trainees actually do... maybe I've classed the fee earning staff which are on the areas, actually maybe some aren't actually non fee earners. The twenty three trainees. [Hugh:] Right. Can I? Cos what I w I mean it's jus t I don't [Trevor:] Oh yes. You've got the you've got all the twenty three in there a and [speaker003:] They'll be [Trevor:] three quarters of those are fee earning... at any one time. [Hugh:] Right. Whi? Well I would like those numbers t to be adjusted. I'll tell you what I was gonna do er I was gonna point out two things. One is that twenty nine percent is too high and you've explained that isn't, that is an artificial figure. And if it's an artificial figure then we should readjust the figures to [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] to show the realism of the situation. I was gonna compare that with the... er th th the, the numbers under your heading of actual, where we have an establishment of two hundred and forty eight. Right? [Roger:] No. Cos if [Trevor:] Yes. [Roger:] Ah yeah. [Hugh:] Two hundred and forty eight. [Roger:] Mhm. [Hugh:] Now twenty nine as a proportion of two hundred and forty eight, works out as er somewhere around about ten percent.... Right? [Roger:] Mhm. [speaker003:] That's twenty nine percent [Hugh:] Oh shit! Sorry. [Roger:] Fifty eight of two hundred and forty eight. [Hugh:] If it's still, it's twenty five percent isn't it? Yeah. It's still high.... Right. [speaker003:] There is.... [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] Right. [Trevor:] That's always the case. [Hugh:] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've come the premise. Erm twenty nine percent is too high. What is the actual percentage of support compared to fee earning? That is the next question. And then the final question is, what is... what should our target percentage be?... [Trevor:] And then the next question is, what do we prep [Hugh:] How do we? What do we do about it? [Trevor:] what services that we incur at the moment, are we prepared to give up? [Hugh:] What do we do about it? That's right. Because I take it that that support, those non, those support non fee earning staff are, me and Nola,... er the clerical staff in P Way, works, B E S bridges almost the whole of erm [Trevor:] The whole of my organization. [Hugh:] of, of, of Trevor's organization, [speaker003:] Q [Trevor:] And, and, and [Hugh:] And Q [Trevor:] And Quality and erm [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] the clerical staff in the Quantity Surveyors.... [Hugh:] Over to you Jim. Sorry. I just I wanted to bring that out because I do feel that twenty nine percent is, is too high. Er an and I [speaker003:] No. [Hugh:] I have noted what Andrew's said about the graduates, and that we are actually getting some fee earning [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] from them. [Jim:] Well look at, look at, look at that my organization bought for twenty six, twenty seven staff, fifty four thousand pounds. [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] Now two thousand pounds per member of staff... I, I feel that it's a very very high figure. Considering we're paying for personnel on top of it and, and all the other things like telephones and accommodation. I asked the question, what am I getting for two thousand pounds a head?... [Hugh:] Does that two? Is that two thousand pounds s purely from business planning management? [Jim:] Well well the majority of, of it is. Yes. I mean [Hugh:] Or is it from your own clerical section? [Trevor:] No. No. No. Over and above the fact that he has three clerks, [Hugh:] Right.... [Trevor:] he h is to, having to pick up on a per capita basis of fee earners, which is how Andrew has distributed these costs. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] He's having to pick up the equivalent of [speaker003:] [whispering] [] [Trevor:] two thousand pounds per fee earner. To enjoy having you and Nola, Trudy and [Hugh:] Dennis. No and Peter. [Trevor:] Peter... and my organization. Now Jim's arguing perhaps [Hugh:] That it's too high. [Trevor:] that it's too high. [Jim:] Well it's equivalent, it's equivalent [Hugh:] I don't disagree. [Jim:] to two to three staff. It's almost I could take on board another two to three clerks, and I could say, could I do what that overhead currently does for me? [Hugh:] Right. [Jim:] With an extra two to three people? Now tha that's just very crude putting it. [Roger:] But you couldn't. You couldn't do the DOPACS could you? You co you co [Hugh:] Cos the I Ts support er [Terry:] I think what is more interesting [Jim:] Why couldn't I do the DOPACS? [Hugh:] Safety. [Jim:] Why can't I do appointment contracts? I've argued this for long enough. Yes I can. Not, not, not, not. Yes I want to or [Terry:] Can I make the point [Roger:] Yeah. [Terry:] gotta emphasize Jim's [speaker003:] Yeah. [Terry:] I don't know the answers but I'm gonna emphasize the point now. Jim did say if I looked at mine, and I only have just looked at it er if I've read the fig if I've read the figures right and I [Jim:] you pay a lot more than. [Terry:] haven't got many more staff only about [Roger:] twenty four. [speaker003:] Mm. Yeah. [Hugh:] Would you pay? [Terry:] I pay seventy seven thousand pounds. [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] Which is an hell of a lot of money compared to your [Hugh:] Gents I [Terry:] lot. [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I, I, I think Pardon? [speaker003:] staff. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] And thirty two staff when I'm paying seventy [Hugh:] Well Rog Roger [Terry:] seven thousand quid. [Jim:] Well all the same proportions aren't they? We're [Trevor:] Yes. [Jim:] paying the same for it. [Hugh:] Again. Can I suggest that what we need to do about this [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] is we've i highlighted a problem, and I think it is a genuine problem, probably the biggest problem that we have to address at the moment. Erm and I [Roger:] Mm. [Hugh:] I think [speaker003:] [whispering] [] [Hugh:] we should, we should set a target, an initial target, that we wish to hi to hit. And a as a crude thing I was gonna suggest erm two course of action. One is Andrew goes away now and readjusts these figures,t to put the graduates, some of the graduates into the fee earning er column. Come up with a revised percentage. [Trevor:] That's not gonna affect the point that Jim Jim's talking about [Hugh:] It is. [Trevor:] poun no he's not. Jim's talking about pounds. Jim's talking about the fact th th th the salaries of the graduates don't come into that. The gr the, the salaries of the graduates have been shared out among the people who have earned fees from them while they've been there. [Terry:] Individually. [Jim:] I made a thirty four thousand pound profit at the end of March, and then Trevor gave me a bill for fifty six thousand [Hugh:] Which demolished the whole lot and more. [Jim:] for his services. Now the point is, another point to note is I had [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] no idea that charge was coming on board. [Hugh:] Well that's not good enough. [Jim:] Way through [speaker003:] Ah. [Jim:] the financial year. I didn't [Trevor:] Now [Hugh:] Well that's not good enough. [Trevor:] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That's not fair. [Jim:] I did n't. [Trevor:] We when we have, when we have done, I mean tha that's isn't a a charge to you. You won't actually have to pay it out. All we've actually done is to say, right if we've got these overheads, I mean it was always shown as another lump of money in the bottom. Business and planning manager, minus so much or in brackets or whatever. What we decided to do, because I thought that's what you'd been pressing for, was to show that as the equivalent affect of, okay, you think you're making these profits but you're actually enjoying services that you're not paying for. [Jim:] About period ten and correct me if I'm wrong Andrew I was told it would be about a thousand, roughly a thousand pounds per fee earning employee. It's over two thousand pounds per fee earning employee. [Trevor:] Well then Andrew gave you [Jim:] Now what [Trevor:] the wrong figure. [Jim:] Well what I'm saying is, yeah and I mean we're all learning by this. If you're gonna run a business, you need to know what charges are coming on board you so you can adjust your rates so you [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] can go for more work [Trevor:] But, but we [Jim:] and this sort of thing. [Trevor:] But, but we are adjusting our rates and going for more work on the basis of a group, [Hugh:] Yes. [Trevor:] and not on the basis of individual offices. [Terry:] Right. But I think what's, what [Jim:] Oh no, no, no, no. Hey [Terry:] may be of relevance [Jim:] wait a minute. If I'm accountable [speaker003:] Yeah. [Jim:] for the performance of B E S which I am [Terry:] group. Yeah. [Jim:] rightly so I've gotta have authority to run it. And that means I've gotta have the information upon which to run it. [speaker003:] You could. That could be [Jim:] If I've got a gap in the workload I can go and [speaker003:] Mm. [Jim:] fill a gap. [Terry:] But I think I, I think what I'd like to [Jim:] You know. [Terry:] know Hugh, to try to help the point I'd like to know what the staff do in Trevor's organization.... If that isn't a rude question. [Jim:] not on. This is, I, I'm not looking for a [Terry:] . You see I have some [Trevor:] Oh why not? It's er [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [] [Terry:] No. No. Trevor. No. Wh wh when we're looking at [Trevor:] Alright then. [Terry:] when we're looking at cost, cost and what have you. You know what can be done elsewhere and how we can best utilize existing staff, it may well be as somebody has said, that I mean we've got Rachel there, just to pick on one post, where you're, cos it's one I happen to know what's she, what's she supposed to be doing. Or some of what she's supposed to be doing [Hugh:] Mm. [Terry:] is to be honest she's of little benefit to my organization.... She organizes training [Hugh:] Mhm. [Terry:] but Jeremy could do that. One of my other clerks could actually do that. [Hugh:] Or we could take the work off Jeremy [Trevor:] Or, or, yes, I mean wh what you could ac what you, what you, you've gotta be careful what you're [Hugh:] We could centralize training again. [Trevor:] actually saying is that perhaps you don't need [Terry:] Well I don't know what the, I don't know what the [Trevor:] three clerks [Hugh:] Absolutely. [Trevor:] in each of the design functions. [speaker003:] Yes. [Trevor:] And two clerks is, which is what [Hugh:] Quite. [Trevor:] Norman manages with, might more be the order of the day. [Hugh:] Wh what I would like to [Jim:] I agree. [Hugh:] suggest we do,beca because it is a very valid point [Terry:] I've only got two supervisors. [Hugh:] and, and it's one that I think is, it is a priority one for addressing, I think we should ask Trevor er and An and Andrew,t to draw up if you like details of the whole of the costs of the overheads within this organization. I mean we know wha we know what Trevor's is a Trevor's is transparent. It's three hundred and twenty two thousand pounds a year. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] Er what I [Jim:] Yeah but what? What are we actually getting for that? [Hugh:] Right. Wh what I was gonna su [Jim:] fifty thousand [Hugh:] I seriously think Hugh coming back to my point, I seriously don't know what [Terry:] those staff do. [Hugh:] Yeah. I [Terry:] I know what some of them do [Hugh:] Let me finish. [Terry:] I can't assess [Hugh:] I was I was gonna suggest that Trevor an an and Andrew draw up [Nola:] Do you know what yours do? [Terry:] Yes. [speaker003:] Shh. [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Yes. [Hugh:] Trevor and Andrew draw up a comprehensive list of [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] what the overall overhead is for this organization, in terms of people [Dave:] [cough] [Hugh:] and expenses and so on. That we then analyze... that, that, that, that report indicates what people do, and we analyze, if you like, where we can investigate possible reductions. [Terry:] Alternative ways of doing it. [Hugh:] Because I mean if we add all these together gents, I mean I pi I homed in on the number, on, on the people, because if you look at our budgets, staff costs are something like ninety percent of our budget [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] make up. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Which means that, that twenty nine percent isn't far off representing the overhead charge on this organization. [Jim:] I know. [Hugh:] And I, and I said my premise was, if that's the case, it's too bloody high. And my initial target then would be to say, look, what would we have to do to reduce that twenty nine percent to twenty percent?... Would it be get rid of one of Roger's clerks? Get rid of Rachel? Get rid of me? Get rid of Nola? But you know what, what would we want to do [Jim:] You have to ask the questions [Hugh:] to bring that down? [Jim:] don't you? If you don't ask the question the charges will [Hugh:] Now that [Jim:] just go up. [Hugh:] that is what I employ a business manager to do. [Terry:] I mean maybe the money, a lot of, is it, is anything to do with the, not the staff costs, but in actual fact the C A D equipment we've bought? [Jim:] No it's additional. [Trevor:] No it's not. No. This is pure staff. [Jim:] It's got nothing to do with that. This is [speaker003:] Yeah. [Trevor:] this is purely staff costs. [speaker003:] Purely staff costs. [Jim:] Because there's er [Hugh:] So c [Jim:] Well [Hugh:] I would suggest that is the action that we take. Thank you for raising it but I think we should now get Trevor to er draw up er a report on, on, on what the make-up of the overheads on this organization is. Erm what we get for the money, and erm where there are possibilities for us to consider reducing that overhead. [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] And we might not like what we see. But we might on the other hand.... And it might be like. [Jim:] And be pretty sure we're not as efficient as we sh as we should be and I'm not just talking about [speaker003:] I mean apart from costs [Jim:] our own offices. [speaker003:] the administration [Terry:] I think the drive next year there ought to be a theme. [Hugh:] Sorry ca can we just let this? [speaker003:] Part of the cost cos we divide the charge of the into our organization on a staff number basis for admin charges, typing services, [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] we get a share of the typing services, or the, the print unit. [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Our organization doesn't actually use it. [Trevor:] Don't use it. Yeah. [speaker003:] So what we're doing is we then send them this, why don't we pass it out to the other piece of the group? [Hugh:] Mhm. [speaker003:] This is really their share back again. But that admin charge it would ge get charged from Intercity East Coast. If we weren't there, the plan print room would still cost the same amount of money. [Hugh:] It wouldn't [Trevor:] I see. [Hugh:] cost us because [Trevor:] Yeah. So effectively we're paying, whilst we never use the typing pool or the plan print room, we're paying a proportion of those costs on a per capita basis [speaker003:] That's it. [Trevor:] and then passing those back to you. [Terry:] And the typists. [speaker003:] Yes. [Hugh:] Well look. Let us, let us see what it is [Terry:] I could manage that [speaker003:] Mm. [Hugh:] l let's get it transparent. Let's get it on [speaker003:] Put it on the table. Yeah. [Hugh:] the table, and see what the build up of th of the ov overall overhead on this organization is, and whether there are areas that we could er th that we could change. [Trevor:] I mean we could rejig things and charge sort of sixty or seventy percent of Rachel's time against the graduates and then charge that back off [Hugh:] It doesn't. [Trevor:] against the people that use the graduates. [Hugh:] But, but you're not reducing the overhead on the organization. [Trevor:] No you're not you're ju you're just moving it around a a and just makes it more acceptable [Hugh:] And that's not the object of the exercise. [Trevor:] to Jim and less acceptable [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] to Roger and Terry. [Jim:] I've had to turn half of one of my clerks over to fee earning work. But I did it deliberately because the [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] I didn't have enough work for three clerks. [Trevor:] Absolutely. I [Jim:] But I don't, but I can't manage [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] with just two. That's the problem. When you've small numbers you get into difficulties of

[Dennis:] function engineer is responsible for issuing to the client. That's, yeah. [Terry:] Replaces urgent work. [Dennis:] Yeah. That's er procedure D two stop three. [Roger:] And that's the simplification is it? [Trevor:] Yeah. [Terry:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Two two [Terry:] It is. [Dennis:] It's, it's sort of following the demise of part of er Trevor's empire. [Trevor:] Thus making it even cheaper. [Jim:] For to a smaller an empire. [Terry:] I should use that word, that was used very loosely that word cheap. [Trevor:] What? Cheap? [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I mean I'm briefed on that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mm. Okay. [Hugh:] So the urgent work procedure has now been removed to make life easier. [speaker002:] D two [Trevor:] And to let the client know where the job lies within our organization. [Hugh:] Good. [Trevor:] Given a point of [Dennis:] Straight into a function and that function head will then s write to the client saying, I've got it. My project coordinator is Mr X, and then we've got the point of contact established straight away.... There are quite a few fairly minor changes to the appointment contract procedure but I haven't, I don't pretend, intend briefing those because I think most people can read. [Hugh:] Right. So they should be aware there, there are some. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Right? [Dennis:] Er J two stop zero. Trainees training report file. [Hugh:] Yes. [Dennis:] Erm there is a requirement that all trainees and new starters within the group, who are having training reviews undertaken, will maintain a training file. So they know where to find and we know where to find all their bits of reports and the like. Their performance reports, training r reviews, schedule of objectives etcetera. And that's J two stop zero.... E five stop one. Contract documents and specifications for works and bridges. E five stop one. [Trevor:] Sorry. There is an X on it.... [Dennis:] Works bridges and Q and Q S. Erm there is now a standard pro forma for identifying liquidated damages. The project engineer to agree with the client what the liquidem liquidated damages ought to be. And there's a pro forma that goes through to the quantity surveyor's section. [Trevor:] P on it either. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Terry:] Eh? [Trevor:] yours [Dennis:] Erm [Trevor:] got P on. [speaker002:] No.... [Dennis:] Con H five stop two. Contract variation orders. Erm contract variation orders are to be signed by the project engineer, irrespective of value. Er subject to him of course having the nec necessary financial authority from the project manager or the client.... There are [Hugh:] Mm. [Dennis:] arrangements in here that if it's in the middle of a possession and the project engineer cannot be contacted, then obviously the resident engineer can sign it. Erm but obviously there's er a, a need, the need to advise the project engineer, and the project manager, erm following the possession. [Jim:] Can I, can I raise a small point on that? That is [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] a number of my staff have repeatedly asked me the question, what is a project engineer? And I've told them what a B E S one is and they said, why? Why are works ones different then? Why couldn't [Hugh:] They aren't. [Jim:] M S ones be project engineers? In works? And yet in B E S they're only twos and threes? [Terry:] Could be anybody. [Dennis:] Well. Project engineers are [Hugh:] You've lost me. [Dennis:] T T O and S T O level. [Trevor:] Surely not.... [Roger:] But you would erm you would allow an S T O, to sign a V O of any value? [Hugh:] The only people who sign [Dennis:] Point, good point. [Hugh:] V Os are those who are delegated within the contract to do [Terry:] Mm. [Hugh:] so. [Dennis:] Yes. [Roger:] That's what it says though don't it? [Hugh:] . And that's what it says. [speaker002:] The value of authority from the client. Yeah. [Hugh:] So it will be in your letter of delegation [Roger:] Yeah. [Hugh:] which brings up the main point and that is we have got to make sure that those people who are nominated or delegated within the terms of the contract, are people who have the knowledge and experience [speaker002:] Mhm. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] to discharge [speaker002:] Mhm. [Hugh:] that duty. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Jim:] Then there's, I, I, I'm the only person. quite a long time now I begin to understand there are M S twos and threes are project engineers, and I [Hugh:] Not necessarily. [speaker002:] No. [Trevor:] Er [Hugh:] They can be. [Trevor:] That was certainly my understanding and certainly [Terry:] No. [Trevor:] if that is not the case then I'm gonna have to change the consultation documents because [Terry:] No. It's terminology isn't it? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] No. Because, because the consultation [Roger:] We've [Trevor:] documents clearly set out to the staff, what I thought was our collective understanding of the section engineer oblique project engineer relationship [speaker002:] Right. [Trevor:] that section engineers at M S four level er acted as project coordinators or looked after their own element of the [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] work, negotiated the er [Hugh:] The fee [Trevor:] the fees [speaker002:] Yeah. [Trevor:] and the remit with the client, and then delegated to, the work to a project engineer. And the project engineers were M S twos on medium jobs, small jobs, and M S threes on larger jobs. And they were supported by a pool of engineers and technicians at [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] M S one and P N T created. [Terry:] Yeah. But why can't the engineer at M S one level be project engineer [Jim:] Because his responsibilities are different. [Terry:] in, in terms of [Trevor:] Well. That's fine [Terry:] your using a name. [Jim:] Oh no. He's responsible. [Trevor:] No. Because within, within our, within our procedures and our quality systems, the word project engineer crops up quite a lot.... [Terry:] Project team [Dennis:] Yeah. But it's, it's not defined as er an M S two or an M S three. I mean take the example that Hugh is always using, is that if I wanted to knock a wall through, a hole through that wall and put a door in there with a link in it surely to goodness we [Trevor:] Right. [Dennis:] don't need an M S two. [Trevor:] If that's [speaker002:] Mm. [Trevor:] the case then can I suggest that we define within our quality systems, that project engineers will be M S twos or above, for check categories of zero or above, and that for jobs with a category of double zero [Jim:] Oh no. [Trevor:] they can't be beneath [Roger:] Very, making it very rigid. [Dennis:] Yes. [Roger:] You see what our policy is M S two except b except by exception. For instance erm we would give certainly the better M S ones the smaller jobs to project manage, but that has to be very carefully thought about. [Trevor:] Project engineer. [Hugh:] Project engineer. [speaker002:] That's right. [Roger:] What happens if everybody wants to [Jim:] panel view this [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] [LAUGHTER] Now I would imagine if we had suggested [Dennis:] In broad terms [Trevor:] I would imagine that if we'd suggested that project engineering duties would beco [Hugh:] Could be done at M S one [Trevor:] At M M S one and S T O [speaker002:] Thank you. [Hugh:] We wouldn't have, we [Trevor:] levels the then [Hugh:] wouldn't have no M S threes. [Trevor:] then none of our M S threes would have come back at M S three. [Jim:] What concerns me is the project engineers are in close liaison with the client, and have a lot of procedures to go through that er S T Os and M S ones at design engineering level do not have to go through. They do have a much greater responsibility. And particularly I mean just signing the V Os, because if it's cocked up, the question's been asked of me. You know. If you have an S T O, in a sense if you don't define what the project engineer is, what grade he is, he can sign off unlimited amounts of money. [Terry:] . It doesn't seem right does it? [Jim:] I it seems, well [Dennis:] No. But the point t that Hughie makes is that y you allocate er y you, you make the project engineer someone who have trained, and, and that you know is capable of doing that job. [Roger:] Yeah. Well I can think of one M S one in our er office who I'd be quite erm quite happy with him doing all the project eng engineering duties except finance. Because he, he just has [LAUGHTER] you know [] [LAUGHTER] a very slap happy er attitude towards finance, but from an engineering point of view you can trust him [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] so this means you daren't give him anything now. [Dennis:] Well in that case I wouldn't put him on er on a job that was made out on site but I would keep him in the [Trevor:] T as far as the allocation of, of erm the project engineering responsibilities, that forms part of the quality plan. That, that, that he is given a note as part of the quality plan saying, here you are son, you are now project engineer. These are your duties. [Dennis:] You are responsible for that job and you are identified on the project quality plan check list as to what you will be doing and what other members of the team will be doing.... [Roger:] He couldn't live, live by it. You know it d the first thought bloody hell. [Terry:] If you don't want to use it don't use it. [Roger:] S T O with unlimited signing power. [Terry:] There's an anom anomaly here. But if you don't want to use it don't [Dennis:] And anyway he can't, he can't actually spend, spend this money unless he's got [Terry:] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. [Dennis:] auth authority from the project manager.... [Terry:] But there may be, there may be [Hugh:] I think we're discussing two issues here. Can we, can we bottom the V O [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] one as a start. I don't see there's a problem with the V O one, because [Terry:] It's [Hugh:] nobody nobody can issue V Os unless they're delegated to do so, in, in the letter that's signed by me. I rely on you gentlemen [Dennis:] And, and they have got the permission of the project manager to spend that money. [Terry:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Correct. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] I rely on you gentlemen to make sure [speaker002:] Too right. [Hugh:] that the people who are delegated, are competent to discharge those duties. [Trevor:] Yeah.... [Hugh:] An and I must admit that I wouldn't, I would not expect to see anybody delegated within the contract at less than M S one level. Because I just don't think they i they're competent to do the duties of the engineer's representative, because you need a knowledge of the contract.... [Dennis:] Tt. Well. There are some jobs that, that we get involved with are very very small [Terry:] We've had John on [cough] [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] John 's been on jobs and he's er [Dennis:] Well. He's been as the R E, which is reasonable to be fair. [Terry:] Yeah. So's Steve [speaker002:] We [Terry:] as R E. [Dennis:] We [Hugh:] Delegated to issue site instructions? [Dennis:] Yes. [Hugh:] But not V Os? [Dennis:] Not V Os. [Terry:] Well. [Hugh:] No. Th the, the letter of delegation [speaker002:] Pardon? [Hugh:] is very specific because [Dennis:] Yes. [Hugh:] the contractor is very specific. [Terry:] Yes. But we need [Hugh:] The contract sorry is very specific. [Terry:] I'm not being funny but we're nitpicking now at the difference between [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] site instructions and V Os. [Roger:] No. [Hugh:] No. [Dennis:] Well. No. No. We're not. [Hugh:] No. We're not. Site [Dennis:] Yeah. [Hugh:] instruction does not involve any er any a a an [Terry:] Financial. [Hugh:] any financial commitment. [Dennis:] And it doesn't change the contract.... [Hugh:] So I mean [Terry:] B t t [Hugh:] The reason why, no, the reason why these, these [Roger:] but they do. [Hugh:] procedures were written is because in the past we had that foggy situation [Dennis:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] and I wanted to clarify that, and make sure that our procedures actually were back to back with contract procedure. So I think in terms o of this particular erm procedure, we're okay. [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] Where, where we're not okay is in the point that Jim has raised, the general point and that is, what do we mean, what do we d define as a project engineer? [Terry:] So junior junior R Es then will not issue V Os. [Hugh:] Unless they're delegated t to do so within the contract and I rely on you to make sure that whoever is delegated to issue [Terry:] What if they're,wh what if they're below M S two level? [Dennis:] No no. No R E will issue a V O.... [Terry:] They might do if they're M S two I mean the project engineer [Dennis:] If it's the project engineer. Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Fine. [Jim:] specifications here Trevor? [Trevor:] With regards to? [Jim:] On one two or [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] three? does it use the word th the term [Hugh:] No. [Jim:] project engineer? [Trevor:] Definitely not in the erm er in the M S ones. I it involves [Hugh:] Does in the two and threes. [Trevor:] about erm [Terry:] Does in the two and threes. [Trevor:] Does in the two and threes. Yes. [Terry:] Cos senior in a lot [Trevor:] I mean th that's the title. Senior project engineer and project engineer. Yeah. Cos that's, that's where my understanding was. [Terry:] Oh. So it's a different issue now. That's the second issue that you've brought up. [Hugh:] It is. Well. I wanted to bottom that one because I think it's a fairly easy one to do. Then, then go on to Jim's point of, come on lads. What do you mean by a project engineer? [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] So that's okay. [Hugh:] And that's the, so let's put that to one side and let's, let's debate [Jim:] Yeah. We'll start that with questioning [Hugh:] Jim's point. [Jim:] my office. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jim:] Mm. Yeah. [Trevor:] There isn't a definition then within the procedures of what a project engineer's duties are? [Dennis:] Yeah. The first book on the left there Dave by the big fat volume that's called [Dave:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] To, to the left of your, your omnibus. That's it.... Ta. [Hugh:] Where? Wha what do we want a project engineer to do? [Jim:] I want him to do an M S two or three. [Hugh:] What do we want him to do? Come on. [Roger:] . Manage that project. [Trevor:] Through from conception to completion. [Jim:] Un unfortunately it raises the question of the project coordinator whose role [Hugh:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jim:] talk to you about you know ne next week [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] because it's all rolled into the same thing. [Hugh:] Right. [Jim:] I say it's [Hugh:] Shall we leave it till then? [Jim:] responsibility. [Hugh:] Right. Let, let us leave it till then because I mean otherwise we're gonna get bogged down in this and whe when we really are briefing procedures. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] But you've raised a very valid point and it's one that we need to see through to the end.... I can s I can see [Dennis:] The role o of [Hugh:] I can see what you're driving at. [Dennis:] the role of a project engineer is defined in Q S P six. Which Roger hasn't seen yet [Jim:] Yeah the role [Dennis:] but he but it is the day to day d detailed development of a project to meet the cost specification and timescale defined in the client's remit. Undertake the requirements of the project quality plan. Undertaking all design construction, installation to meet all necessary current standards, statutory requirements,a and the civil engineering design manual er safety manual. In a broad sense.... [Roger:] Mhm.... [Hugh:] Which seems alright. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Hugh:] L let us then debate, I mean you actually have a load of projects which are maybe two or three thousand pounds apiece [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] where I presume you would just wanna hand that out to some guy and say get on with it. And that guy may be an M S one. [Jim:] The problem is a lot of those are not being managed properly by the M S ones, M S twos. [Hugh:] Right. We will [speaker002:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Okay. Let's debate that then when we get together. Thanks for raising it Jim. Fair point. [Jim:] Have you read what [Trevor:] It's, it's important that we nail it down very very quickly because the clients' reports depend very much upon the input of the project engineer. [Jim:] Project engineer. [Trevor:] The only, the, there is only the project engineer can get into the databases to put anything in, or, or their clerical support, to get anything into the general notes about that particular [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] project. [Hugh:] I think we're meeting early next week isn [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Tuesday isn't it? [Jim:] Tuesday [Hugh:] So we'll bottom that Tuesday. [Trevor:] Okay. [Dave:] Could I briefly go back to liquidated damages, because there's nothing in the procedure, I think, that says what happens when you send that form to the client, he says, I haven't a clue. What do you think? Cos that's exactly what's gonna happen. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Because I've seen [speaker002:] Oh dear. [Dave:] that form before and they will not know what to put on it or what they [blowing nose]... [Dennis:] You may be l well be right there. [Roger:] Maybe to tell them what liquidated damages [Hugh:] They need leading by the hand gentlemen. [Terry:] Can't we just put a clause [Hugh:] We need, we need, no. They don't. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Organize everyone by us. [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Perhaps we should set the course up. [Roger:] Course up and. Eh? [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Absolutely I like that. Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] No. It's very frustrating because I've never never known a client who knew what his losses were. [Hugh:] We'll run a course for project managers. [Dennis:] As Hugh, Hugh is indicating that th that we have got a degree of expertise and we should be offering that expertise to clients. [Dave:] Well we can tell him how much we'd be charging them to. [Hugh:] No. No. No. What we've got to do is say, look, within the terms of the contract [Terry:] This is what. [Hugh:] this is what you have to do. You have to make a genuine pre-estimate of your losses [Trevor:] Mm. [Hugh:] so can we talk about what your losses are? We w suggest that you have losses under the heading of er [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] disruption to traffic, loss of revenue, so on and so forth [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] and I think we have er a a part to play in that. [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] What about my extra costs? [Hugh:] And your extra supervision costs. [Terry:] No. I was thinking about the client's extra costs. [Hugh:] Oh. [Terry:] Then the gain actually. overrun by three weeks the fact that we've still got our supervision [Hugh:] Yeah. But, but we put that in. [speaker002:] Yeah. But during [Dave:] Not only that [Hugh:] Yeah. But we, we should be prompting them. [Dave:] course that we know about it. [Trevor:] Well there's the fact that he might have borrowed the money for a ten million pound project, and he can't have a use of it because it's named and he's paying interest on that ten million pounds. [Hugh:] Extended plus services for diverted traffic and so on. [Terry:] be discussed. [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Hugh:] So what [speaker002:] Good. [Hugh:] it needs is it needs us to have an input with their project manager to evaluate them. [Dennis:] That's right. A and the forms as it stands picks up most of the points that we've just raised. [Terry:] Does it have a box for us to put our costs in? [Dennis:] Oh yeah. It starts off with that. [Terry:] Thank god for that [Dave:] Th they're, they're, they're not our costs Terry. They're his costs. [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [Dave:] I mean we charge him. [Hugh:] Correct. [Dave:] He's the one that [Terry:] No. But [Hugh:] Correct. [speaker002:] Why? [Dave:] And we can tell him how, how much we're gonna charge him but it's up to him or whatever. [Dennis:] I mean quite clearly with something like this, when we start using it, it's gonna throw up all sorts of [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] problems. [Hugh:] Mm. [Dave:] We have, we have had that form kicking around for quite a long time and it's never really been [Hugh:] Right. [Dave:] It's easier for [Dennis:] Well now is the time for everyone to be aware of it. [Hugh:] That's right. We're now proceeding [Terry:] Brendan and Joyce did a twenty five page memo. [speaker002:] Mm. [Trevor:] What on liquidated damages? [Hugh:] Next. [speaker002:] Shut up. [Dennis:] S safe, okay. Procedure K zero stop one, safety related admin. I'm making the point that man management procedures erm, sorry, safety instructions and information and safety information will not be issued via management procedures. Management procedures w will relate, will only contain procedures relating to the admin of safety matters. [Hugh:] Yes. [Terry:] Good. [Jim:] Excellent [Terry:] Go back to the clerical section [Hugh:] You, you'll, you were instrumental about [Dennis:] I've been fighting this b [Hugh:] that my friend. [Dennis:] I've been fighting this battle for four years and we've eventually got there. [Terry:] Mm. Good. [Hugh:] Good. Next. [speaker002:] It was [Dennis:] Erm maintenance and use of portable electrical apparatus K nineteen stop one. [Hugh:] The safety one.... [Dennis:] Er it talks about erm [Trevor:] Safety admin one. [Dennis:] Safety admin one. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] The functions clerical section, section maintaining registers. Business and planning manager will ensure a contract's in place for routine inspection. Business, and business manager will ensure that inspection reports are forwarded to the function heads after inspections. And there's talking about labelling of defective equipment and what have you. [Hugh:] Good. [Jim:] And I've been ordered to. [Dennis:] Right. [Hugh:] Mhm. [Jim:] By plant well will be by plant. [Hugh:] Right. [Dennis:] Erm M for mother four stop one, payment application by contractors. Erm there are quite a few in, in this series which follow the same sort of thing is that er, all projects all jobs on site er will have a quantity surveyor from Dave 's section. Erm and will [speaker002:] Eh? [Hugh:] Nominated.... [Dennis:] to do all the post-contract measure work. [Hugh:] Nominated.... Come on. Let's, what you're doing is you're winding them up Den. [Dennis:] I'm not. [Trevor:] I can't believe Dennis would be mischievous enough to wind anybody up on p on a subject that he's so disinterested in. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] [LAUGHTER] That's, that isn't [] [Hugh:] Yes. Go on. [Dennis:] I've been told to change these procedures to. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] just taken the knife out of your back. [Hugh:] Right.... [Dennis:] The project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements, normally attaining these personally. However when specifically requested by the project Q S, the resident engineer or the project engineer may obtain this information. A project Q S is responsible for agreeing all valuations and for processing all invoices for payment for physical work, and passing these to the client for payment. [Terry:] So what's the change? [Dennis:] Because on many jobs certainly smaller jobs, er the resident engineer or the project engineer would be doing the [Hugh:] And normally normally they will do that and in, in the future [Trevor:] Well [Hugh:] Yes it will. [Terry:] they can say, yeah,th the project Q S is just gonna say, measure me all [Hugh:] That's right. [Terry:] I haven't time to go and do that. [Hugh:] What I'm looking for, this is part of [Dennis:] I know [Terry:] Sorry. [Hugh:] this is part of the the spirit. The reason this came about Dennis, is because some people were, were playing ducks and drakes. And the spirit of the exercise is that we will work as a team, and the most cost-effective procedure will exist. And in m in many cases the most cost-effective procedure will be for the lad on site, the R E or the assistant R E to measure, and provide the measure to the Q Ss who will put that forward and process that in the way they do now and send out a certificate.... And I don't see anything contentious about that. [Trevor:] Can I take it that if [Terry:] I don't, I don't like how it is worded then, because I don't think you said that. Sorry to [Hugh:] No. It, it was worded that way because there are [Terry:] It says [reading] the project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements []. That's what it says. [Dennis:] Yes. He is responsible for that. [Hugh:] He is. And he may delegate that [Dennis:] He may delegate to [Trevor:] I agree with you but [Hugh:] and in many cases will delegate that. [Dennis:] He is also responsible for the valuation [Trevor:] He has raised it with the contractor. [Terry:] It doesn't say that here. [Dennis:] It does. [Dave:] But there's no. The letter of delegation normally says that [Terry:] It says, normally it says, normally obtaining them personally [Dave:] The letter of delegation has always said that Q S will measure [Hugh:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Jim:] Measure the works [speaker002:] re [Dennis:] In, in, in, in the past [Jim:] words. [Dennis:] the resident engineer has been doing the measure and also agreeing the valuations. [Dave:] Well I don't think [Dennis:] Now what Hughie's saying is that that will be done [Hugh:] Th that responsibility [Dennis:] mutually [Dave:] valuations because we've got this [Hugh:] Mm. Perhaps you do. [speaker002:] which, which... [Dave:] Personally I don't think really there's a need for a great deal of site measurement. I think, I think it should all be, you know, basically it should be done from [speaker002:] The offices. [Dave:] [LAUGHTER] because they've dug a big hole doesn't mean you measure the big hole. It's all part of the measuring anyway. [Trevor:] You're paying for the hole they should have dug provided it was at least as big as they [Hugh:] In accordance with the and the er the what do you call it? [Dave:] Yeah well. [Hugh:] The [Dave:] Preamble. [Hugh:] preamble. [Trevor:] Can I take it then, that these items will be clearly defined when the project coordinator discusses with the team quantity surveyor at the [Hugh:] Who does what. Yes. [Trevor:] Who does what because [Hugh:] Yes. [Trevor:] I don't want any more s in instances where the quantity surveyor thinks he's got a certain fee that he's working to, only to find out later [Hugh:] Hear hear. [Trevor:] on that somebody's knocked it down by half and not told him. Because that causes all sorts of problems on the report and, and bad blood all round. [Hugh:] Course it did [Trevor:] It's not what team work's [Hugh:] I mean I, no. I would reiterate that my objective is a very simple one, and that is to give the client the most cost-effective service we can.... [Dennis:] Er with this instruction, it will get picked up on the quality [Hugh:] Co in accordance [Dennis:] er check list. [Hugh:] Good. [speaker002:] Good. [Jim:] Could I could I, could I ask that B E S be taken off the distribution codes. We do not use quantity surveyors for that purpose and indeed the quantity surveyor is not geared up to do any measurement for us. [Trevor:] So you want that [Hugh:] The answer to that is [Trevor:] rewriting then? [Hugh:] No.... Because I think that there should be no reason why the Q S shouldn't provide you with that service in the same way as he provides anybody else Jim. Unless there's [Jim:] But he's, but he's not geared up to do it. [Terry:] But you've got erm a Q S then. [Hugh:] We have.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] [LAUGHTER] I'm not too sure that means []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Well I think, I think bloody robots [Jim:] we all were. [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] in there like. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] electrical away isn't it? [Hugh:] Mis yeah. Mister Metal. [Trevor:] That's wound the buggers up. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Metal Mickey. really [Hugh:] Metal Mickey. Well that's [Terry:] really a bright spark. You know. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah. [Jim:] What I'm [Hugh:] But erm [Jim:] what I suggest is these procedures are, we briefly mentioned this this morning, are supposed to reflect the best practice of what we do now. [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] That is not what we do now. That is actually saying to the Q S, you've now got authority to come in to B E S and effectively do what you do on the civil side. And what I'm saying is he's certainly not geared up to undertake that task. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jim:] And that certainly hasn't [Hugh:] Jim? [Jim:] been debated. [Hugh:] On, on, in many cases [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] Go on. I mean if I took your line, your, your logic and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, er we would not have changed anything when B E S came into, to our organization. And one of the most significant changes I wanted to make, and I think we have made was that the, the letting of contracts and the vetting of contracts and so on would be done by our Q Ss, in the same way as it is for the civil work [Jim:] Indeed. [Hugh:] for a very simple purpose and that is that it, it improves our internal control. [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] It puts an in a a almost er an independent view in there, of the costs and valuation of variations and so on.... Now I, I think perhaps you're worrying unduly, Jim in so far as, your, your men will continue to administer contracts in the way they do now. The they still issue the certificate to the client, which is signed off price correct. [Jim:] Yes. [Hugh:] For them to sign off price correct, they have got to have had a look at the measure.... Haven't they? [Jim:] Well they don't. That's just it.... If we're to be, if we end up being audited on that, then we will fail the audit because we do not do that. That's what I'm saying. That is supposed to say what we do and what I'm saying is [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] we don't do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it I'm saying we don't do it. [Hugh:] Well I'll leave that for you to manage. [Jim:] And, and procedures procedures should not say what we don't do. [Hugh:] I, I agree with you. [Jim:] They should say what we do do. [Hugh:] Or. [LAUGHTER] [Trevor:] Or what we ought to do. [Hugh:] Yes. [Jim:] Oh no. No. No. [Trevor:] Ah! [Hugh:] If if we're not complying with the procedures that's a different [Dennis:] Well it, I mean if we go down that [Hugh:] a different ball game. [Dennis:] path er Jim then we're gonna have er five or six set different volumes of procedures. [Jim:] Yes. [Dennis:] Because we all do things slightly different at present. [Jim:] If that is necessary then that is of course what happened and indeed in many cases that is exactly what happened. There is nothing wrong [Hugh:] You have a dif [Jim:] with that. But, but, but [Hugh:] you have a different quality system for different offices. [Dennis:] But Hughie is [Jim:] Well you, you have to do in some cases. [Hugh:] Yes. [Dennis:] But Hughie is saying as far the works office is concerned, he wants to regularize the system with this procedure. And as I understood you [Hugh:] Yeah. [Dennis:] again, you wanted the, the, to regularize the system with within the B E S office. [Hugh:] We well I do, unless that doesn't make sense. Now I can't see why it doesn't make sense, but if Jim came to me and said, look Hugh, that's bloody silly. I mean our objective is to give the, the client a good efficient cost-effective service, that doesn't meet those objectives. [Jim:] But D Dave, Dave, Dave could not handle, in B E S, what he handles on the civil side. [Dennis:] In what respect? [Jim:] H he is not staffed up to do what [Dennis:] could quite easily ask you to do all the erm [Trevor:] Running around [Dennis:] the actual measure the site measurements, but the agreeing, the valuations, and the processing of the invoices, he does himself. And that is w well within what this procedure says. [Trevor:] I mean he does the invoices now doesn't he? [Hugh:] Well I understood so. [Trevor:] Or the, the certification to the client. [Jim:] Yes he does he does the certificate. Yeah. [Trevor:] So really all it, all the, this would involve them doing would be to say, would you project engineers er or, or engineers collect the in information on site, provide it to the quantity surveyors so they can check it against the spirit of the contract, and make sure that er what's proposed to be certified they're happy with. [Jim:] Well it doesn't say that though. [Hugh:] Yes. It [Dennis:] Sorry. It's [Hugh:] Let's [Jim:] What I'm, what I'm saying is if, if you want to really stir people up, bring in a procedure within telling them what you're doing, and then imple implement it at a later date and people will say, this is not quality.... [Hugh:] Hey Jim [speaker002:] You will [Hugh:] the reason why we're the reason why we're doing this now is is to [speaker002:] Right. [Hugh:] try and achieve that objective. [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] Not t to drop it straight on them but to say. look, this is one we're introducing this is the way we in in intend to use it. [Jim:] Mm. [Trevor:] I mean there might be the odd situation, the big job, where the Q S would need to go and [speaker002:] Right. [Trevor:] get involved in the measures on some of your work.... [Jim:] Well he doesn't. That's what I'm saying. [Trevor:] He hasn't done yet. [Jim:] You can't have that, he doesn't. Have a word with Dave and ask him himself [Hugh:] Dave Dave was a party to this s [Dennis:] D Dave, Dave wrote this [Hugh:] procedure. [Dennis:] did the change. [Jim:] Well you may be certain he didn't consult with me. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] And that's the point I'm making. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jim:] These procedures should be manag you know part of management consultation, not part of the Dave writes it, if he like says, well that's what we'll do for B E S, and then, and then I'm told, oh, that's what we do for B E S, I tell staff, and that causes a great deal of unrest in staff. [Hugh:] Hey Jim why? Why [Jim:] back on him? [Hugh:] Jim. [Jim:] Cos I haven't had an opportunity to do it to [Hugh:] Why should B E S be a different, a different situation from bridges or works? [Jim:] Well in, in theory certainly probably there is no reason for it, but in practice, it hasn't happened yet this is the point. It hasn't actually happened. [Terry:] Yes. You're, you're implementing a procedure here that doesn't exist, is what Jim's saying. You're implementing a procedure [Hugh:] Within B E S. [Terry:] which says you're gonna do this [Hugh:] Right? [Terry:] Sorry. Sorry. No. It doesn't say that. This procedure should say you do this. That's what we're doing at the moment. [Hugh:] Right. [Terry:] he's quite right in saying [Jim:] book is an instruction. [Terry:] Yeah. And Jim's quite right in saying, it does not happen. [Roger:] But it's not the first time that a procedure's [Hugh:] Finished. [Roger:] come out early. [Terry:] So you've implemented a procedure for wh which you haven't set up you haven't even looked at the resource information [Dennis:] but can be briefed [Hugh:] We are introducing a procedure. [Terry:] Yes. [Jim:] And in order to c come in and say [Terry:] like that? No. [Jim:] why don't you do this? And I could say well I, I've never done this. I can't do this, and Q S is not geared up to do it. [Terry:] What? [Jim:] And straight away we say, well this procedure, doesn't work. [Roger:] Yeah. But it's [Hugh:] Right. Yeah. [Roger:] come out, it's come out early. Damn it all. We had a procedure erm about senior project engineers, er about two years before we [Terry:] We've gotta keep repeating that. [Roger:] Er [Terry:] does it? [Roger:] put that into the bridge office in [speaker002:] Mhm. [Roger:] intended. [Dennis:] Right. [Hugh:] The thing with this, the thing that puzzles me a bit er [Terry:] Just because you booked that [Hugh:] on this, and I'll reiterate this, is the process that we go through as I understand it for introducing procedures, is that we take a diagonal slice through the organization... er in other words there's a draft procedure produced. That is sent round to people who will have been involved. They have the opportunity to input, it is amended er taking account of, of the comments [Trevor:] Taking account of some of the comments. It can never take account of all the comments. [Hugh:] Of course it can't. It will always be compromise. But by a very virtue of the draft going round and being commented on people are aware then... [Terry:] We don't see [speaker002:] . Mm. [Terry:] all the drafts [Trevor:] No. Wh what wh where [speaker002:] going on. [Trevor:] that falls down Hugh, is that people assume because they've commented that, that when it comes out in its final version it'll reflect their particular comment. They never get a feedback saying, thanks for those comments but I've those because, because I thought somebody else's comments were more [Jim:] a lot more slice. [Dennis:] No. [speaker002:] No. [Dennis:] Not not, not [Jim:] It's just a modification from [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] the slices L lots of the revisions are not sliced and certainly in, in cases like this where [Hugh:] Mm. [Dennis:] it is a er er a specific [Trevor:] Direct. [Dennis:] request or a direct request that something is changed, then it is given to in this particular case the Dave s of the world or other function heads and told [Hugh:] I would still like to issue that. Er a and I think we issue it and then t in Jim's situation, erm I think what you tell your staff is that this, this has been issued, and we are gonna find a way of erm working it in your organization. Or if it is impossible to do so then we will have to have a look. [Trevor:] Well surely it, it just means that in in Jim's organization [Hugh:] I, I don't see the problem. [Trevor:] that when specifically requested w will apply in in ninety nine percent of the cases.... [Roger:] That will be reflected in the quality plan anyway. So [Trevor:] Yeah. [Roger:] where's [speaker002:] Yes. [Roger:] the problem? [Hugh:] Mm. Yeah. I, I don't see a problem. [Trevor:] but when your project coordinators talk to [Hugh:] In concept there should not be a problem [Trevor:] the erm [Terry:] You might not have a problem [Trevor:] Q S [Terry:] in four weeks time. with Dave but at the moment if we're audited tomorrow [Dennis:] Well as I understand it, this is what's happening at [Hugh:] Well I still don't [Dennis:] present. [Hugh:] I don't, I still don't [Trevor:] No. But [Hugh:] accept that. [Trevor:] at present effectively that [Dennis:] He agrees valuations. [Hugh:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Dennis:] And he can delegate the site measurement to your staff. [Hugh:] And in most cases will do. [Roger:] As long as it's a you do your [Dennis:] And he processes the paper. [Trevor:] And once you do a quality plan for that, that delegation. [Terry:] anything to your section at the moment does he? [speaker002:] No. [Terry:] It's the other way round. [Trevor:] Yes. Yeah that's true. [Jim:] For long enough I've said budget engineers run the job. [Terry:] Yeah. [Jim:] Where I mean our, invariably our in involvement is much greater than the Q S. [speaker002:] Naturally.... [Jim:] And many of my staff in s in not just but one or two others, see this as the tail wagging the dog if you like where somebody says, you will do so and so, or you know, I'm telling you you'll do this. Now it's how you read that into that procedure. That's the problem with it. There's no problem I [Hugh:] I understand that. [Jim:] mean that, you know, why? Why should the Q S estimate all our work? [speaker002:] Mm. [Jim:] The there is no real good reason [Hugh:] Why he shouldn't. [Jim:] why he shouldn't other than the fact that keeping [Hugh:] In fact there's a [Jim:] up to date. [Hugh:] There's a very good reason why he [Terry:] Could he do that? [Hugh:] should. [speaker002:] Perhaps. [Terry:] Is he doing that now? [Jim:] No. No. No. [Hugh:] Not yet. No. But he does, he does all yours. [Terry:] I thought we had a [speaker002:] Yeah. [Terry:] procedure that said they did it. [Jim:] Aha. [Hugh:] We do. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Roger:] B E S? [Jim:] Well you told me [Terry:] I mean come on it's the same ball game. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Terry:] I mean I [Hugh:] It is the same ball game and, and as far as I, as far as I'm concerned it makes more sense [Terry:] So why aren't the Q S [Hugh:] for [Terry:] B E S work now? [Trevor:] And P Way work? [Terry:] And P Way work cos that's what you've said it does and you, you're [Hugh:] We are doing. [Dave:] I'm afraid I'm not helped much [Hugh:] We are doing. I'm, I'm gonna call a halt to this here because without David here who [speaker002:] Right. [Hugh:] knows the detail we, all we're gonna do is enjoy the sound of our own voices.... I think. So what I'm, what I propose, is that this goes out because I don't think it changes anything significantly. Erm Jim you, you, you need to present it in a certain way to your staff, and er after you've considered that, if you don't feel it's workable then I think you need to talk to David and I.... [Jim:] Yeah. Well I've already, for a number, a number of cases, spoken to Dave about it. And he knows this can't be worked. That's why [Hugh:] Well I [Jim:] I'm rather surprised that it's, we're [speaker002:] Will it work? [Jim:] still perpetuating this [Hugh:] Well alright then. The other option [Jim:] a and, and, and the S on the M as it were. [Hugh:] Yes. Right. The oth the other, the other option is for us to hold that. [Dennis:] because it was supposed to be briefed last [Hugh:] Mm. [Dennis:] month. [Hugh:] Well in that, in that case when [Jim:] I've seen, I've seen all this [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] in that case when [Trevor:] It is ours. [Terry:] Well we can't [Trevor:] We've got a [Hugh:] Right. In that case Jim you say to your staff that you're gonna have a dialogue with Dave and myself, with a view to confirming how it will be implemented as far as your organization is concerned. [Roger:] But surely we can still issue it, we can still brief [Hugh:] This issue [Roger:] that issue? [Hugh:] Of course you can. [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker002:] Well. It is [Jim:] work [Trevor:] It's been issued Roger. [Dennis:] I think, I, I personally, I think everyone's got to work to it until they find it doesn't work. [Trevor:] Ca can't you just, can't Jim just brief his staff, but er as far as that's concerned w he takes it that the Q S has asked him to do all the site measurement er and that they will then produce the certification [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] based on that? [Hugh:] Yeah. The [Dennis:] I [Hugh:] only re yes by all means [Dennis:] our project quality plan check list reflects that. [Hugh:] .... [Terry:] Naturally your [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] your way out is to get D Dave to write a letter, saying for all projects I wish him to do [Trevor:] Y no. No. No. [Hugh:] Terry, Terry there's no point. [speaker002:] All all that, all that [Hugh:] That is stupid. [Dennis:] All that Jim's trying to do [Hugh:] the reason why [Dennis:] Is to change [Hugh:] I, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. [Terry:] No. No. I know but [Hugh:] It, it, it, it is stupid in, in so far as the more sens if we were gonna do that, all you'd do is you'd write the procedures in a different way. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] The procedures were written in this way, because erm there was a move from a certain part of the organization to exclude the Q Ss from elements of work on an unreasonable to an unreasonable extent. Now if we work as a team and we work very sensibly and reasonably, it may wo may well be that the most sensible way of working is for the project engineer to decide who's gonna do the site measure. But at the end of the day these guys sign off price correct. These guys therefore must have a facility of ensuring that the price is correct, from an internal control point of view I want them to be involved in certifying that the price is correct. That is how we came to the conclusion that they should be [Jim:] I, I, I... I certainly think there's a great deal of sense in it all. But we don't even measure yet. I, I've yet, I've got a, a major job on my hands to reeducate people and bring in systems for much more accurate measurement of our work. It's a very difficult job to measure is M and E. [speaker002:] Mm. [Hugh:] Well a lot of them are just [speaker002:] because [Hugh:] lump sums aren't they? [Jim:] Well I mean a lot of it can't be measured you know? [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [Jim:] Hundreds of miles of, of cables [Terry:] Cables [Jim:] on a site [Terry:] Trunking [Jim:] for example. [Terry:] Yeah. [Jim:] You know we we are not geared [Terry:] S s [Jim:] up to measure yet properly. And we need to be. [Hugh:] Right. [Jim:] So I'm saying we're wa way off what the procedures are currently saying. A and all I'm saying is that and I rest my case [speaker002:] Mm. [Jim:] is that [Hugh:] If we came to be audited [Jim:] procedures should be what is happening, not what our aspirations are. [Dennis:] No. I'm sorry. [Jim:] Particularly when they're long way. [speaker002:] No. [Trevor:] But, but when you're measuring something [Dennis:] I don't want otherwise you finish up with five separate er management procedures. [Jim:] But also is it necessary. [Hugh:] Jim [Jim:] So we can make [Hugh:] let's issue that. [speaker002:] Because [Hugh:] You, David and I need to sort out what we need to do to implement it [Jim:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and we will then implement it. For you. [Jim:] We've also gotta recognize clearly Dennis that civils and M and E cannot be stereotyped they are very very different engineering. [Dennis:] I'm s not suggesting they could. [Jim:] And some management procedures cannot work very well in M and E as they can in civils. Not because [Hugh:] Mm. [Jim:] you know we don't want to in, in, in the civils team or what have you. Indeed it works very well. But in some cases some procedures cannot be worked on M and E [speaker002:] Yeah. [Jim:] engineering. They've got totally different algorithms. [Dennis:] Well it is supposed to be talking about managing the system and not d not taking people's e professional expertise away from them. I mean but if [Jim:] Yes. [Dennis:] if we are gonna have [Jim:] It is a problem. [Dennis:] procedures which are, don't quite fit you, then I think what we ought to be looking for is a certain amount of common ground between your procedure and our procedure, so there is not something, you're doing something completely different to the way the rest of us are doing it. [Jim:] No. I totally agree with you. [Dennis:] It's gotta be married together. [Jim:] Totally agree with you.... cannot stereotype every function, under a management procedure. It just cannot work every time.... [Hugh:] Right. The on the, the, the, the procedures should be flexible er written in such a flexible way [Dennis:] Yeah. [Hugh:] that those idiosyncrasies of the different sections can be accommodated. [Jim:] Th they should reflect the best practice shouldn't they? [Hugh:] Yes. [Jim:] The best practice in, sometimes in M and E is, is quite different from the best practice in the [speaker002:] Mm. [Jim:] civils. [Hugh:] Right. Le okay. We can talk genera generalities till the, the cows come home. I believe that, that that procedure could apply to you the same as it can to Roger and Terry [Dennis:] Yeah. [Hugh:] and Dennis and Alan. Er and if, if y if there is a resource problem then you David and I need to address that [Jim:] Mm. [Hugh:] erm and find a solution. If when we address it we find that th the procedure is inappropriate, then we should change the procedure. [Jim:] [whispering] I agree with you []. [speaker002:] Mm? [Dennis:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Okay?... [Dennis:] Er D two stop three, receipt of appointment contracts. Erm what we're trying to do here is to get the clerical sections more involved in the projects, and in passing the paper backwards and forwards. Er and we're identifying that the clerical sections are required to do a certain number of things when the project arrives, like erm recording the project in the index book, creating a correspondence file, creating project admin wallets, and the like. So it's sort of er three things we're trying to do there. [Trevor:] What, what was the reference of the urgent work one? I, I've got that down as D two point three Was it three point two? [speaker002:] Mm. [Norman:] I've got that down as tw D D two point three as well. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [Norman:] Very good. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [Norman:] I wouldn't have spotted that. [Dennis:] Aren't you observant. You're absolutely bloody right aren't you? [Hugh:] Got two D two point threes? [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] Yeah. But we seem to have, right, I'll, I'll take that point back. [speaker002:] Okay. [Trevor:] I'm sorry I shall have to fill in the noncompliance or a quick-fix report Dennis. [Dennis:] If you if you would please Trevor. Yes. That's the system. [Terry:] Mm. You fell for that Trevor. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] I'm sorry I haven't got one with me. [Hugh:] Right.... [Trevor:] Right. Well [Hugh:] And [Trevor:] I'll just plug that up that. [Dennis:] We'll expect one from you then? I'll tell Trudy's [Terry:] So it's not D is it D two point three or not? [Dennis:] I'll, I'll have to check with her another time. [Terry:] Right. Okay. [speaker002:] Yes. [Trevor:] Apparently we've got a mistake on the back of that form, that it referred to a noncompliance report, on the back, which is referring to the front but the front was called a quick-fix report you see? So I said, should I fill in a quick-fix report or a noncompliance report, to say that the quick-fix form, or is it a noncompliance report is wrong. [Dennis:] Right. [Hugh:] We'll get there. [Dennis:] Erm [Trevor:] He said I could leave it with him and he'd sort it out. [Dennis:] there have er [Terry:] [LAUGHTER] first mistake []. [Dennis:] there have been some fairly er minor alterations to the procedures concerning contract admin wallets er and the various client reports, er but Hugh did ask me to raise them at this meeting, er to remind people of the need to er complete client reports. [Hugh:] Correct. And I've rai I raised it this morning. [Dennis:] Right. [Hugh:] And erm in the context of Regional Railways [Dennis:] Fine. [Hugh:] wanting them from us. [Terry:] Yeah. [Dennis:] But I must say that we're using these client reports and managers within each section [Hugh:] I know you are. the only one who is. [Dennis:] are finding them extremely useful [Hugh:] Mm. [Dennis:] in keeping an idea of where the jobs are, [Hugh:] Yeah. [Dennis:] and the comments I'm getting back from the er the clients are very very favourable. [Hugh:] Right. [Dennis:] They do find them extremely helpful. [Trevor:] Have you run off [Roger:] C [Trevor:] any interim report from t the computer yet? [Dennis:] No cos I wasn't too sure if it was available you telling me it is available. [Trevor:] A as I said this morning t to the management team it is available. The only problem is as a one-off exercise on er existing jobs. We will have to put in er a summary of the existing remit. Including [Dennis:] Right. [Trevor:] all the variations and what not. And that's something that Mike and Ken will help dig the historical contracts out and, and suggest er a remit. Erm b cos, cos he, it prints a remit back out out the client. But it, it, it's ready [Dennis:] When, when are we likely to, to have the contract reports available?... [Trevor:] The Q S the physical works [Dennis:] The physical works. [Trevor:] Yeah. We're gonna start specifying that now and Brian will, will er [Dennis:] Right. [Trevor:] will start to, to, to work that up. But of course that can become quite a complex thing depending on how much we want to sort of use it to produce certificates and things like that. [Dennis:] Right. So that's gonna incorporate the Q S cost report as well as the physical works is it? [Trevor:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [Trevor:] Yes. A and that's, that's gonna be quite a complex erm [Dennis:] Right. [Trevor:] thing to specify. As it's a p it's a pound to a penny [speaker002:] Mm. [Trevor:] that, what we're doing at the moment, we won't want to b put it all in this system [Dennis:] Fine. [Trevor:] because it will be very complex. If you want to, if you start building a system that's gonna record every variation that's issued to the client and [Hugh:] Make it simple. [Trevor:] print it all back again. [Hugh:] M see if we can make it [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] fairly simple. Could I just say at this point, this, this is one area where I would envisage us looking critically at what we're doing and, and, and, and altering things quite significantly over the next six months. [Trevor:] Keep it simple and build up on it [Hugh:] Beca [Trevor:] if we need to rather [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] than go the other way. [Hugh:] Mainly because we're doing, we're trying to read the client's mind at the moment. And w we we're putting together what we think the client wants. What I'm looking for is feedback from the clients which say, yeah, these reports are alright as far as they go but really I don't want all that information or I want this information. [Trevor:] Or [Hugh:] And I would hope that we, we we enter into that with th that spirit and [Dennis:] Mm. [Hugh:] we're prepared to look at the the client reports and change them so that they become as good as we, we can get them. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Norman:] Is there anything within these [Hugh:] It is the first step. [Norman:] for the prediction of fees? I mean we've just [Trevor:] Yes. [Norman:] got something back from Intercity... on the P S work where they're wa wishing us to predict to certain date what we're gonna be spending over the next six months. [Hugh:] Nine months. [Trevor:] the football? [Norman:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yeah. Well [Hugh:] Regional railways have asked for that as well. [Norman:] Have they? [Trevor:] Yes. Erm that that [Norman:] Well Dennis er Roger's been doing for it for Leeds North West haven't you? [Trevor:] He has. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Trevor:] But he's been doing it manually haven't you Rog? [Terry:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Be be because I don't think you can trust the forecast reports from DOPACS. I think y yo you could blip from month to month er, er as a priority slipped in or changed, or a person slipped out or, or somebody forgot to zero something or y [Jim:] It's too fragile isn't it? [Trevor:] It's far too fragile. [Hugh:] Mm. [Trevor:] It it's there for us to, to use as a, as a sore thumb exercise to ask questions but, but to actually do anything er, er as critical as saying, we're gonna spend twelve thousand pounds next period and eleven thousand pound the period after and fourteen thousand the period after, er I don't think that's [Jim:] computer system's tying your hands behind your back. [Trevor:] Yes. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] Yes. [Trevor:] So, so really we're gonna have to have a manual involvement or override there by the project coordinator to, to, to [Hugh:] Well if, if you remember we, we agreed with Keith he would have a think that and a talk to [Trevor:] Yeah. [Hugh:] Roy er Roy [Trevor:] You'd remind him about it Hugh. [Hugh:] Yeah. But what I'm gonna suggest is that again we go back to the client, and say basically, this is what we think we can provide is that good enough? Mm. This is what you want. If we give you that we can give you it in a certain way, but it is not necessarily meaningful. [Trevor:] Mhm. [Hugh:] If we do this it will be a lot more meaningful. Is that acceptable? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Trevor:] One point [Hugh:] Fine. [Trevor:] that occurred to me where we could perhaps give them some flexibility, is that we could say, if that's not acceptable to you, we will delay invoicing. Cos now we don't have to pay interest on our fees,i if, if, if a jam's spread over six months a a a and it might risk and slip to nine months, we might do better to offer to jam spread it over nine months and only invoice for part of the money. [Hugh:] Mm. Don't like the sound of that. [Trevor:] Er [Jim:] the project engineer sits down and manually, let's be honest. [Trevor:] No. Cos he's gonna just divide it by the number and it's it's [Jim:] It's it's a very minor part of the operation. [Terry:] Mm. [Dennis:] I think you've got a little bit careful with lots of our jobs which have got very very small fees attached to them. [Terry:] Yeah. [Trevor:] Yes. [Dennis:] which [Trevor:] It's, it's hardly worth doing. [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] at the present time we're saying to on the monthly report we're saying to the client, we've spent three thousand out of five thousand, and their anticipated final cost is going to be five thousand. [Trevor:] Yeah. [Dennis:] And i he knows when we're actually gonna finish the job and therefore [Hugh:] Mm. [Dennis:] he can almost do that sum himself. [speaker002:] Yes. I agree. [Dennis:] Er er I think on a bigger job i it it's perhaps a different story. [Trevor:] The trouble is Dennis a lot of our [Dennis:] little jobs. [Trevor:] a lot of our clients [Hugh:] But on a bigger job you can, you can put the resource in can't you? [Dennis:] Yeah. [Trevor:] But a lot of our client's finance sections, don't see the difference between a big and a little job they see some pigeon holes in their spreadsheet and they want to put something in there. Anything. And th they, they've got this sort of [Hugh:] But this is where we need to talk to the client [Trevor:] Yes. Of course they are. [Hugh:] isn't it? [Jim:] J j just agree with client he might, might be prepared to accept on a quarterly basis [Hugh:] Yeah. [Jim:] you know? I mean we don't necessarily have to give him it every month. One could argue [speaker002:] Yeah. [Jim:] if we're not careful we'll be causing him work. [Trevor:] Oh. [Roger:] know what they want half of them anyway when they're [Hugh:] Ah. Let us halt it there. [Trevor:] the customers. Yeah. [Hugh:] As er I said before. Let us sit down, Trev, and see what is sensible for us to provide them with. Go and talk to them and say look, this is what we can provide to you. It will be meaningful. Is that good enough? And the chances are they'll say, bloody hell, that's marvellous. Because what they're getting now is nothing. [Roger:] Mm. Well [Hugh:] And I'll tell you what, what they're getting from us is infinitely better than they're getting from anybody else. [Roger:] You see even from Leeds North West the outside party job and the P T pay monthly, so it's important that the client knows what he's gonna be facing. But what we do is we estimate three months [Trevor:] Mm. [Roger:] and divide by three. [Hugh:] Yeah. [Roger:] Then you get an average, [Hugh:] Not bad. [Roger:] you know, and that's, that's the way [Terry:] What's that mean? [Roger:] Mm? [Hugh:] No. I think's it's quite generous [Trevor:] Don't be mean. [Hugh:] actually. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Next one Den. [Dennis:] Well. There aren't any more. Ther there have been quite a few that have come out recently which I haven't briefed. Some of them are fairly minor and it's to read them. Others which are perhaps a little bit of er a change from what we've been used to doing, [Hugh:] Mm. [Dennis:] are currently being revised yet again. So I'll pick them up at the next brief. [Hugh:] Right. [Dennis:] I think an hour of this is about enough isn't it? [Hugh:] Den that was great. I mean I know there's been a lot of debate and I know that er you may feel it's been a bit of a waste of time but... the fact that there's been so much debate [Dennis:] If, if, if you say, Mary had a little lamb [speaker002:] Mary had a [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] it will go down in the Oxford Dictionary or something. Right.... We've got that out the way. Accidents on site. Bridge office report. Fifteen four ninety three. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Right. [speaker002:] You've got it? [Dennis:] Yeah. We should all have received a report from Roger about one or two accidents that have occurred on sites. One, both were dumpers I think weren't they?... [speaker002:] I haven't seen that. [Dennis:] Haven't you? Team brief items here we are. There we are. Haven't you? Tt, tt, tt, tt, tt, tt [speaker002:] They were sent down on time I think weren't they? [Dennis:] You did. It was a very good report. [Roger:] Oh. Well. Just cos they came down doesn't make the bit of [Dennis:] Here we are. It was dated the fifteenth of April nineteen ninety three. Erm and erm one was at Norfolk Park viaduct. A mobile access platform tipped over, and a steel erector was injured during its recovery. [speaker002:] We briefly mentioned that one last time if you remember. [Roger:] He had his head jammed or something [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. I it shot up in the air Yeah. You mentioned [Dennis:] The man basket [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] shot upwards and a man's head smashed on the steel girder. The helmet saved his life. So. I think that's worth briefing. Erm [speaker002:] Briefed it last time. [Dennis:] Yeah. Right? [Terry:] Okay. [Dennis:] We don't need to do it this time. [speaker002:] We didn't have the facts you see last time. Written down. It was al it was all facts verbally. [Dennis:] Yeah. Next one is erm on Bridge three O six eight A, Reford. A dumper driver collided with a, a rapid metal development soldier... and that's some p part of the temporary works. Striking [Terry:] Jumbo scaffolding. [Dennis:] strike, that's right, Jumbo scaffolding,dr striking the driver on the leg. Okay? The other one on the same site was a driver, a dumper driver, a different one I hasten to add [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] collided with the existing structure, crushing his chest against the steering wel wheel.... And I'm [Terry:] Why? [Dennis:] not sure Makes you wonder doesn't it? [Terry:] I will say that. [Dennis:] It, it, perhaps there's something wrong with the dumper. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Was it Doesn't it say whether it's the same dumper? Was it the same dumper? Yeah. [Dennis:] No. It isn't. [Roger:] what are the recommendations? What are the report, what, what's in clauses what used to be thirty seven and thirty eight? Recommended course of action and stuff like that. We're not [Dennis:] That's a good question Terry.... [Terry:] Were these dumper drivers certificated? [Roger:] Why it happened? I mean [speaker002:] I've of watching brief jobs for which we are not responsible. [Terry:] Oh. It's nowt to do with us then isn't it? [Roger:] Well. I'm I mean I'm not being facetious but what is the bloody point [speaker002:] No. It's s [Roger:] in telling us [Terry:] I don't know why you're clogging our meetings up with somebody else's accidents. [speaker002:] Because I'm supposed to report all accidents [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to here. [Dennis:] Yes. He is. It's it's my [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] fault. I should [speaker002:] Because [Dennis:] not have put them on here without considering what you said there Mr. [Roger:] Yes. Thank you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Erm quite a valid point. The, unless we want to brief to our staff the potential hazards in er [Terry:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well. [Dennis:] the use of dumpers on er sites. [Roger:] I think we should. There are two points that I, you would be looking at normally if you were investigating it. One would be [Dennis:] Crippled him. [Roger:] were the, were th were the dumpers in good working order and had [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] they been serviced properly? Which is something which happens which is done through R Es. And the other one is did the d what sort of certification did the drivers have? [Terry:] Yeah. [Roger:] Even if it was only a car driver's license. [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] And did we er [Terry:] A a and [Dennis:] subject them to a drugs and alcohol test [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] afterwards. [speaker002:] Oh ho [Terry:] A and was the er was their method of operating the dumper in accordance with the site safety plan? [Roger:] Or was he driving it backwards? [Terry:] Yes. [Roger:] or whatever. [Terry:] Yeah. I've seen dumpers driven over [Roger:] Upside-down maybe. [Terry:] two bits of sheet piling laid over a ditch and things. [Dennis:] Right. [speaker002:] Good. [Dennis:] Thank you for those all the same Roger despite what was said. [speaker002:] D do you want a little one from me then? [Dennis:] Yes. [Roger:] That that near miss thing at erm Dewsbury. [Dennis:] Oh. Yes. Please.... [Roger:] This is where there wasn't an accident, thank God, but we did find out er we had nobody on site at the time. Work had been planned to be carried out during the possession on a Saturday night to carry out some pointing [speaker002:] Ha we've had this one. [Roger:] only [Dennis:] We haven't briefed it. [Roger:] We haven't briefed it. [speaker002:] Did we not brief it last month? [Roger:] No. We haven't briefed [Dennis:] No. We discussed it. We did it at the safety meeting. [speaker002:] One which Yeah. [Roger:] Erm work was organized during to Saturday night during the possession which included people standing in the four-foot i in the tracks. And for one reason or another the subcontractor bowled up on site on the Saturday afternoon and decided to do it then. And he set up his own system of work using wal er er lookouts etcetera using er walkie-talkie radios and staff exposed themselves to danger by standing in the four-foot. [Terry:] His staff? [Roger:] his staff. Yeah. There was nobody else's staff around at the time.... It's likely we will ban the contractor for three months from, at least three months, from doing the work [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] although h he took a very professional erm attitude in dealing with the inquiry afterwards. And didn't hide behind erm didn't try to make any excuses. He said that it had been done wrong. He's actually sacked his own foreman, the main contractor cos the main, the foreman turned up on site and this I think is one of the lessons to be learnt, is that foreman turned up on site and saw what was happening [speaker002:] [cough] [Roger:] and didn't stop it.... [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] And so condoned what was going on. [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] And it's the major contractor. Er may as well tell you i it's [speaker002:] So possession had already been arranged? [Roger:] For the night. [Terry:] The April the ninth. [speaker002:] For the night. Yeah. Yeah. [Roger:] But they did it. [speaker002:] Mm. Yeah. [Roger:] That's the only reason we found out, is our supervisor turned up to take possession, and the contractor's guy said, there's no point, we've done it.... So. we've actually found it.... Could have been an inquiry into a death. Quite easily. Er yeah. [Dennis:] Thank you for that Terry [speaker002:] It was at Dewsbury? [Roger:] Dewsbury station. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] I think the message is there that er we took a dim view of it and we have now [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] removed them from our approved list for a, a period. Erm to show how serious we consider [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] And the subbie by the way who did the work [Dennis:] the incident to be. [Roger:] we're banning him for further and I'm gonna [Dennis:] Whatever. [Roger:] saying, ban him for life. again. [Dennis:] Yeah. Good. [speaker002:] . What was his name?... [Roger:] I'll let you know. In fact I'll let you have a copy of what I've got this [speaker002:] Yeah. [Roger:] P Pa Pete I think. [speaker002:] That's that's where we're likely to drop the clanger. [Roger:] Pete. [speaker002:] Yeah. . Cos he might [Terry:] Ah. But Pete might just come out in his wife's name next week [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] and start trading. You've got no idea. [Roger:] This subcontractor has worked for for a number of years. [speaker002:] So. It's not a fly by night firm. No. Yes. Cos they'd be in. Well. He'd just [Dennis:] Good. [speaker002:] Job done. [Roger:] go to the wedding but [speaker002:] Yeah. [Roger:] That's what's probable.... [Dennis:] Oh my God [speaker002:] Alright. Okay let's have a look. [Dennis:] Right? Next one. I'm gonna go into the erm the Irish route improvements thing we talked about this morning. Which Norm that. [speaker002:] Yeah. I know about that. [Dennis:] Okay. [speaker002:] Right.... [Dennis:] Potential work. Erm Chris 's visit on the eleventh of June, I think we briefed last time? [Terry:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Er I think it's just worth mentioning again that it's still on and er I, I think er it is really more important than ever now for us to impress on Chris what good work we do because er of the changing situation within the industry. And the more people that know what good work we do the better.... Provision of photographic services.... Over to you my friend. [Terry:] Oh. Provision of photographic services? Right. Erm just to say that, just to confirm the note sent round that erm we will only pay for any photographic services by Intercity East Coast if it has been procured using a task request form in accordance with the same way we procure any other internal B R er service. [speaker002:] Now. Surely if all we want is prints off existing things all you need do is a request with a DOPACS number? Yeah. Surely not you know fill in a task form in for print off a couple of negs. [Roger:] Is this the external [speaker002:] Yes. [Roger:] request request for external [speaker002:] Mm? [Roger:] services? [Terry:] Well. B b w w why? Why can't you just use a task request form that says. Please p [speaker002:] Well. I mean [Terry:] please provide [Dennis:] Prints off the following negative numbers [Terry:] four number eight by eight prints off these t off, off negative numbers so and so. [snaps fingers] [Dennis:] Splendid. [speaker002:] Are you gonna write [Terry:] And put the DOPACS number on. You're gonna on something. [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] Copy it to Andrew and then Andrew knows when the I B I S invoice comes forward that it's something to be [Dennis:] Then he'll sign it off. [Terry:] paid for. Because we've got thousands of I B I S invoices that come to us that are not for us. And, and unless we've actually got an i er a request to back it up [speaker002:] Okay. [Dennis:] Good. Good. [speaker002:] You're pointing [Terry:] a and it's come from Peter [Roger:] Oh. Will you stop being. You've got to do something wrong [Terry:] It's come from Peter [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] they will not, they, they want to be erm procured in a structured way, such that they know they're gonna get paid. [speaker002:] Mm.... [Dennis:] Right. That's it. I have, unfortunately have some view forms and it doesn't look as though we've got a an overhead projector. What a shame. [Terry:] We have. It's in the Permanent Way office's secure room. [Dennis:] No. I mean in here. [speaker002:] You. But you never told me to bring it down. [Terry:] No. But we could send for it. If [Dennis:] Oh. No. No. [speaker002:] No. [Dennis:] Let's not bother. [speaker002:] Alright. [Dennis:] I'll, I'll quickly run through. What it is it's the Intercity core brief [Terry:] Oh! [Dennis:] That's why I [speaker002:] I've seen it. We've had it, a copy of it [Dennis:] Have you got a copy of this? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [Dennis:] Good. Good, good, good, good, good. [Hugh:] Have we? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Terry:] What's it about? Does it tell us who's gonna own this [Dennis:] It gives us feedback [Terry:] this line? [Dennis:] on the core nine brief [Terry:] Aargh. [Dennis:] It gives us an update on privatization reorganization most of which has appeared [Terry:] Anything? [Dennis:] in Railnews. [speaker002:] Right. [Dennis:] And it gives us a er tt details of the current Intercity marketing strategy which is again [Terry:] Not interested in that either. [speaker002:] Yeah. We, we have [Dennis:] Good. That's right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] And get a green ticket []. [speaker002:] So. They're encouraging people to drive their bloody cars Yeah. Burn more fuel and just travel on a train. Extra fuel [LAUGHTER] Environmental. Yeah. It is. Next time any other business [Dennis:] Right. So. Hello Den. [speaker002:] I've I've just come back on that D two stop three. No. Sorry. [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] Yes. [Terry:] Please do Den. [speaker002:] Right. The, the D two stop three the work of an Ah. urgent nature [Terry:] Yeah. [speaker002:] erm that was actually issued some time ago but wasn't briefed. But it was quite a significant change that we were [Terry:] Oh. So we d we [speaker002:] D seven was er er work on emergent nature Yeah. Indeed. No. It's been put through as the procedures. [Terry:] Yes. [speaker002:] Cos people D seven was the acknowledgement [Terry:] So. So that was to say that we'd w [speaker002:] Yeah. [Terry:] withdrawn D two point three. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Terry:] And now you've reused it somewhere else? [speaker002:] And erm and subsequently we've actually withdrawn [Terry:] Withdrawn [speaker002:] this particular D two stroke three. So if you look in your manual you've now onl only got one D two stroke [Terry:] Yeah. [speaker002:] three Rather than two D one, right. [Terry:] A a a and the, and the, and the D seven bit is, is in a different section? [speaker002:] Is covered by part D two stroke one. [Dennis:] Right. Thank you Dennis. You're a good lad. Right. Could I just quickly look through here? I, I did have a go through this core brief to see if there were any things that I should have picked out. There there is a good section, there's a good section on pensions by the way because our staff will be concerned about pension proposals after privatization. [Terry:] Is it? [Dennis:] It's section one point five. If you view files three to five. The main message I would give is that the Board has responded to the government with regard to the pensions issue, and suggested a number of improvements to the government's proposals.... [Roger:] Yeah. The scheme [Dennis:] The Board's [Roger:] did that didn't it? [Dennis:] Yeah. [reading] the Board considers the B R employe employees who transfer involuntary involuntarily to the private sector should return an indefensible right to remain as members of the joint industry scheme []. [Roger:] We've seen all that. [Terry:] But that, that's only a suggestion. It's not been Yes. [Roger:] Yeah. I mean wasn't this, wasn't this [speaker002:] Well. They're not one of these things where they [Dennis:] Let's, let's pick out something positive. [speaker002:] they actually put forward some proposals, whereby what do you call him withdrew the clause and wrote another one which negated anything that was said before?... [Terry:] Pardon? [Roger:] That sounds a wonderful idea when does it [Terry:] Who's what's her name? [speaker002:] . [Dennis:] Pass. [speaker002:] What do you call the secretary of state? Freeman. [Dennis:] McGregor? Oh. Freeman. Roger Freeman Secretary for [speaker002:] Yeah. No. McGregor's Secretary of State. Roger Freeman's Transport Well. Transport Minister then. I, I thought that the Board had complained and put forward some suggestions. It said in the [Dennis:] Mm. [speaker002:] T S S A circular [cough] Whereby [sneeze] Freeman withdrew the clause, wrote another one which meant that you had to go back to stage one again. [Dennis:] It wasn't very helpful. [speaker002:] And that was in your T S S A circular Mm. about [Dennis:] Right. [speaker002:] a fortnight ago. [Dennis:] I sus well, I, I found that quite interesting the bit on pensions. Th [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] th the bit that I found most interesting was at least the Board are trying to look after our interests in that respect. Er and I think it's, watch that space. Isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes. [Dennis:] Does that seem reasonable?... Without wading through it all and things are moving on [Terry:] Yeah. [Dennis:] fairly quickly.... [Terry:] There's still nothing black and white. [Dennis:] No. [Roger:] Gripping stuff isn't it this? [Dennis:] Yeah. Right.... N Nothing more there? If anyone wants to borrow the core brief, they're welcome to do so. [Terry:] Ken would like to read it. [Roger:] Ha we got, have we got a copy upstairs? [Dennis:] Norman has a copy. [Roger:] That's fine. Well Nor Norman can brief them. [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] If he thinks so. [speaker002:] If you think so. [Dennis:] May I? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Erm and that's it. [speaker002:] Good. [Dennis:] Thank you very much. [Roger:] No rule review? [Dennis:] Rule review. [Terry:] Have we finished [speaker002:] Rule review and team brief. [Terry:] Shall I get? [Dennis:] We've finished the [speaker002:] rule review today at four. Can I, can I just ask one thing if we've finished I'm and any other business? [Dennis:] Right. [speaker002:] Plan printing. We're again [Dennis:] Plan printing [speaker002:] We're having problems with getting the [cough] drawings back from plan plinters [Terry:] I'm astounded. Are we [speaker002:] I think we, we complained to you and you complained [Terry:] Er I Did I, I, I, I've I've had [speaker002:] and [Terry:] a letter back this week from him. [Dennis:] Forty eight hour turnaround? [Terry:] s saying saying that er he's had lots of erm glowing testimonials from our [Dennis:] Complimentary letters would you believe? [Terry:] staff er and he assumes that er everything's back to normal and hunky- dory. [speaker002:] Well. It isn't. I mean we we're saying we had things down there in excess of three days. And we're not getting them back, short [Terry:] Anybody else? Had those problems? [speaker002:] It was just brought to my attention just before I came down. When we want urgent work done we've really got to turn the screws tight. [Terry:] It's hard work is it? [Roger:] Yes. It is. [speaker002:] Yes. It is. [Roger:] There's no official mechanism to do it. [speaker002:] Yeah. It's er [Roger:] You go down there on your hands and knees and you report it's not meet and then you [Terry:] Yeah. Is it? I, I'm only [speaker002:] The er It's not a quality service Trevor. [Terry:] It, he has erm diluted the erm quality of service a d erm the performance specification he, he undertook to provide me with [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] over the phone, because he said he was gonna be a two hour urgent work [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] a and er by telephone arrangement if you want it quicker than that. And now it's suddenly two days [speaker002:] yeah. [Terry:] but urgent by special arrangements. [Roger:] That's that's, you, you don't have to [speaker002:] Do you work his own printer? [Terry:] Er that doesn't surprise me. [speaker002:] Mm. Well. I mean [Terry:] Yeah. But he's only buying his own [speaker002:] Ye [Terry:] printer so that when he's hived off he's got some [speaker002:] Well. We might wish to consider using him if you've got problems with Mm. Plan Printing. Let Offices Services Manager know that. [Terry:] No. Because we're paying for the staff down there and the paper and [Dennis:] Well. What the hell are we supposed to do? [speaker002:] Well. As ask him for a refund on that much we haven't received from [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] them. [Terry:] What I was gonna suggest, what I was gonna suggest was that anything that we didn't get [Dennis:] I mean if we're not getting the service why [Terry:] Anything that we didn't get to a timescale [Dennis:] Don't we refuse to? [Terry:] we should just go out to Prontaprint and invoice him for [speaker002:] B b [Terry:] the [Roger:] But what? [speaker002:] A lot, plenty of firms out there'll do it you know. We don't, we don't [Roger:] What happened whilst you were on holiday after that first few days off, the guy rang me up and said, hey some of your staff have been down er say saying we've got an urgent service that you can have in two hours. [Terry:] That's right. [Roger:] And he said, Who told you that? [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] And I said, well, why we've just agreed that with Jilly. And he said [Terry:] Certainly did. [Roger:] he said, I'll fucking see about that. [Dennis:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] bet that's not in the Oxford Dictionary. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] L [Dennis:] Ca can I suggest [Roger:] Can I rewind? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Dennis:] that, that er that you respond to that letter from him Trevor and say [speaker002:] [cough] [Dennis:] that the information that we have from our staff does not correspond [Terry:] Yeah. [Dennis:] with what he's put in there. [Terry:] We w [Dennis:] And that we now propose [Terry:] We need a two hour se [Dennis:] We need a two hour service. If he can't provide it, then we intend to obtain prints from er an external source and get the invoices sent to him. [Terry:] There's no point in telling him that, because he'll just refuse to pay them. We will just, let's, let's threaten him that, that might be a course of action that we're gonna have to re we will have, we will have [speaker002:] gonna upset the staff. [Terry:] to er [speaker002:] We'll obtain prices from outside for the work. And don't accept the bill for two staff. Right. [Dennis:] Splendid. [Terry:] Well. We can always stop paying for the bloody machine that er [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] I mean we're paying [speaker002:] I mean [Terry:] forty five percent [Dennis:] There's no way we'll sit back and let him continue in this way. So we've got to tell him what the options are. [speaker002:] Somebody has suggested that we train some of our staff up to use their machine. [LAUGHTER] And I think it came out of the print room. [Dennis:] What a good idea. [Terry:] No. It's not a good idea. There are all sorts of health and safety implications to messing about with erm erm [Dennis:] Oh. Well. We'll get a core erm what do you call it? Er assessment? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] And make sure that we provide our staff with the appropriate [Roger:] Fresh air, fans [Terry:] protection. [Roger:] breathing masks. [Dennis:] I don't see that as an [speaker002:] W w w what if [Terry:] He's won then hasn't he? [Dennis:] Yeah. if he gets rid of his staff [Terry:] He's got rid of two of his he's got rid of two of his staff and we've had to go in and fill that breach. [Dennis:] Trevor, if we're in business on our own and we want prints [Roger:] If we're in business in our own [Dennis:] and we want prints we would decide on what the most economic way of getting them is. [Terry:] We would. [Dennis:] Well. Let us now start investigating that. [Roger:] At the moment I'm happy with the service down there by the way. There's only Alan so far says he's got a problem. Anybody else got a problem? [Terry:] W w w we want to try and [Roger:] I think before we take any urgent action we ought to Alan ought to monitor the situation. [speaker002:] Oh. Well. This is what we've been doing. I mean wh what I've After the last time we got a problem, [Roger:] Cos we don't normally act. [speaker002:] we, we've, we've had prints down in there excess of three days. Now all I'm saying is that he undertook to give us those in forty eight hours. But all I'm asking is if there is an urgent work system, and if that urgent work system is being abused whereby everybody is putting down Yes. urgent work, [Dennis:] They shouldn't be doing. [speaker002:] which is pushing back his normal service Mm. Mm. surely the urgent work procedure's gotta be pr reviewed as well. [Roger:] It needs controlling. [speaker002:] And it needs controlling. Which either means that somebody at my level or an M S three level or somebody, has gotta sign for the urgent work. Yeah. Where I'm Because all it means is that anybody's signing it urgent Yeah. work, do me one now. Yeah. Right. [Terry:] I'll [Dennis:] It needs sorting out. [Terry:] I'll talk to. It it's very [Dennis:] But where I'm puzzled a little bit by Terry, is about five minutes ago Terry said, people have got to go and beg and [Roger:] They have a urgent work [Dennis:] get on their knees [Roger:] scenario. Yes. [Terry:] Yes. [Dennis:] And then he said he was satisfied with the service. [speaker002:] The normal work. [Roger:] The normal work service. Yes.... [speaker002:] It's the ur er Yeah. [Dennis:] Right. [Roger:] It's the urgent ones [speaker002:] Yeah. [Roger:] that cause the problem. [speaker002:] But i it depends Terry with everybody's going down on the urgent work ones which is putting the normal service back isn't it? [Roger:] Well. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Roger:] I haven't suffered on the normal service so far. The service is always difficult, like Roger said. [speaker002:] Mm. [Roger:] Or somebody said. [Dennis:] Can we put a handle on this? Can we [Terry:] Erm I'm in correspondence with him. I'm, I'm talking to him about the planned s filing system as well, which is [speaker002:] Well. That's more than some people What, what filing system? would print [LAUGHTER] That is of course. [Terry:] But, but that is a function of this York Accommodation [Dennis:] Mm. [Terry:] Consortium which is [speaker002:] I mean standard drawings out of there. [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] What is the York Accommodation [Dennis:] So in terms of action [Terry:] Oh it's some, some some high whizzing w one top guy from each erm business, get together and talk about Hudson House West Office's erm main H Q. [speaker002:] Who represents us? [Terry:] Some guy from er... S and T I think [Dennis:] No hoping they represent us. [Terry:] cos they're part of the business unit.... So I said I didn't want to deal through somebody who wasn't really gonna be fighting in our corner, and I'd rather put a paper to their committee an and tell them where the problems were, and ask how they were gonna get round them. They've got problems with erm staffing because they got rid of all their staff [speaker002:] Well. Yeah. [Terry:] But now now they've realized that they need more than one receptionist to cover the early hours and later hours. But what they were thinking of doing is taking on another person who could file plans away in the plan room once the, once sort of the midmorning rush of visitors had been cleared in, in Hudson House reception. But that sounds about as positive as his suggestion that he would train up [speaker002:] [cough] [Terry:] er the reprographic staff to cover peaks in er sorry the troughs in, in the staffing in the plan printing. [speaker002:] Mm. [Terry:] I it sounds very well in principle, but in practice I haven't, doubt very much whether or not we will avoid having a, a dint in, in the service that we need. But the plan, the ownership of the plan print room, and the way that the plans are not stored safely and they're not treated like proper documents, just amazes me when you compare it with some of the plan rooms in, in [speaker002:] Astounding. [Terry:] B R. [speaker002:] What you want to do is ring up the Sunday Times and get a reporter round and he'll get a scandal story and they'll do something [Terry:] Yes. All we could suggest [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] all we could suggest that they did w w [speaker002:] sabotage in certain cases. Well [Terry:] was [speaker002:] not sabotage but [Terry:] tootle in and find the security fencing drawings an and the underground ducts at the York Signal Box in the plan room and wouldn't they have a a little wow? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Right. What is our proposed action? [Terry:] It will all be in there.... Well. I will, I am writing to [Dennis:] To say that [speaker002:] Y A C [Dennis:] we we're still having some problems? [Terry:] an a and saying that we are [Dennis:] Good. [Terry:] far from happy with the plan print room with the er er o o o and suggest that the businesses ought to be concerned about the way that their records are stored in their plan room. And that er [speaker002:] I would erm suggest that they go at Swindon to see how it's done. [Terry:] Well. I would suggest that we use this as a lead in to say, Isn't it time you paid to microfilm all the old drawings? Can we be of any assistance? [speaker002:] The [Dennis:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well. Another, this is, two things they've got enabled Swindon to get where they were. One was a sort of leak to the Sunday Times [Dennis:] But we're not gonna go down that path. Right. Next? [Roger:] Yeah but I imagine. Not Sunday Times. [speaker002:] Can't I finish? [Dennis:] Well. Go on. Ye yeah. Go on. [speaker002:] And the second w was the criticism they got at Glenrig. They got you know quite a bit of stick for not being able to produce drawings that they said they had. You know, they said they'd got drawings and then, well, where are they? They couldn't produce them. And they got some stick for that. But those two things together were what enabled them to get their plan room into what it is now. An absolute work of art. Good. [Terry:] Mm. [Dennis:] Right. What we've gotta decide is what we want for the, the C E D G I thing. [Terry:] Well. I mean I was meaning I want to, to get your standard drawings out of there. [speaker002:] Jim knows what he wants and gonna take our standard drawings out [Dennis:] what he wants to do. I'm fully supportive of the P Way office getting the standard drawings there. Er and I think Roger what you and Terry have to decide is what you want of your parts of the organization. And then we can organize [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] ourselves. [Roger:] The problem is a lot of the drawings down there are historical drawings [Dennis:] Yeah. Which we don't need. [Roger:] Which are storing information which we don't need now but it [Dennis:] That's s [Roger:] would grate to [Terry:] Well. D d it, it [speaker002:] Yeah. [Roger:] It's the cost effect of not having that information, that's going be a cost on the client if he comes and wants to [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] do something to those [Roger:] Yeah. But it would be anyway. [Dennis:] Of course he will. It's not a cost effect on us. [Roger:] Well. We shouldn't be picking up the tab. [Terry:] No. No. No. I, far from it but I think here we should be encouraging him or, or highlighting the, the problem that he's got that he ought to be looking at. [Dennis:] What what we should be doing is make s making sure that we have er the negatives of all those drawings that we've produced over the last ten or fifteen years, that we may need to use again. [Roger:] Mm. But ye but yeah. That does need staff to search through them [Dennis:] It does. Yeah. [Terry:] It also needs somewhere to store them. [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] Yeah. Well. We've got that now. [speaker002:] But you've got a plan room down there. Which until recently functioned quite well. [Dennis:] Yeah but it doesn't any longer and I can't er quite honestly in, in the climate that's er [speaker002:] Rail Track. [Dennis:] Th th that is that is e existing [Terry:] Yeah. [Dennis:] now. Hopefully Rail Track will take it on board. I mean that's the way it should go Rog. [Roger:] Well. Infrastructure's theirs isn't it? [Dennis:] Erm but I think we have a duty to our organization to determine what we want to do. [speaker002:] management buy-out, do you regret not having Certainly. Yeah. [Dennis:] So. We really [speaker002:] short-sighted to see But they wouldn't allow us to have belong to them. [Dennis:] Yes. They are. [speaker002:] Well. They ma they maybe do belong to them but bloody hell they the information on it. Mm. [Terry:] Yes. I think that [speaker002:] Right. [Roger:] We'd have copyright on them wouldn't we [Terry:] We [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] we should encourage them to microfilm them and then we should then encourage them to give us a a, a [speaker002:] Mm. What? [Terry:] set of [speaker002:] Mm. Do you know that Trainload Freight went through [Dennis:] I in the absence [speaker002:] that print room and removing drawings of their depots Is it? We've got is it worth considering And there's not a blind thing you can do to stop them taking [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] To them on their own terms? them out of there now. [Dennis:] I, I well. I wou I would pre [Terry:] Of course they are. [Dennis:] to the er the [speaker002:] But you're losing [Roger:] Who's got copyright?? [speaker002:] a valuable s [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] source of information for any future projects. [Dennis:] My, my honest is we should get, we [Terry:] The British Railways Board has copyright. [Dennis:] should get the photo the er microfilming facility. Jim's gonna do this and I, I think Jim's Jim's exercise will be a good for us. And if we find it's a, it's, it's er an effective system I think we should then do it for bridges [speaker002:] Mm. [Dennis:] and works [speaker002:] Although the cost [Dennis:] And P Way. [speaker002:] It was fairly it was fairly cheap when I looked into it Yeah. with P B D. Forty five, forty five pence? [Roger:] About five years ago. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] I mean it, it's [Terry:] Not only that it's they come and collect them take them away [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] and bring them back isn't it? [Dennis:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. All-in price? What a hundred and sixty quid for five hundred drawings? [Terry:] Is that for [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] A one or A nought or [Dennis:] . So. I mean regardless of what they want to do, the rest of the organization, I think that we as an organization should do something like that. With a view to er recording all the drawings that we've produced over the last fifteen years. [Terry:] It would take quite a, an exercise to actually find them and [Roger:] Well. That's the w [Dennis:] Yeah. [Roger:] would be. Not the microfilming I think that's a good idea. It's, it's finding out which ones are really any good. [Terry:] Because they're not stored in, in [Roger:] Yes. [Terry:] a drawing number sequence. So. I [Roger:] No. [Terry:] suppose we could find them easy enough if they were. They're actually stored in bloody line reference and [Dennis:] Are they really? [Terry:] bridge number and [speaker002:] Mm. What are? [Dennis:] I thought the bridge ones were in [speaker002:] [cough] [Terry:] No they're rolled up in [Dennis:] The Y V er [Terry:] pigeonholes and things. [speaker002:] All we'd of done was taken pigeonholes and go to them and say don't want [cough] that. Don't want that. Want that. Want that. Want that. Record the number. [Dennis:] Mm. [speaker002:] Bundle them up them off send them off and the rest. I mean a lot a lot of the plans in the plan rooms were actually rationalized by Joe and Joe and er Joe and Bernard Fortunate them. About three or four years ago. So. Most of the rubbish should have gone and it was only the Do you honestly think that they did all? No. They did they did an awful lot of it. Yes. I thought they just pratted about And scratched the surface. No. They, they, they they made a considerable impact certainly on the earlier years' ones. But there's bags of drawings over Yes. Fine. Petree. And some bridge drawings among them. And nobody quite knows what's there. They never got to sorting those out. [Dennis:] Right. [speaker002:] Who's Petree? The [Dennis:] Yeah. But they're ancient ones. As far as I'm concerned they belong to er Rail Track or, or the businesses. What I'm concerned about is those drawings that we've produced with our resources over the last fifteen years. [Terry:] What since n say beginning of Selby? [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] Go back to there. [Dennis:] Yeah. About nineteen eighty. [Terry:] Cos before before that Rog the, the codes were changed anyway weren't they? [Dennis:] Yeah. About nineteen eighty. [Terry:] If we went back to nineteen seventy eight, we'd pick up all the Selby drawings wouldn't we? [speaker002:] Yes. [Terry:] And [Dennis:] And all your s current standards. [Terry:] a and, yeah. [Dennis:] I, I would have thought that would be good enough for us.... [speaker002:] Well. S. Well. Shall we, what, what are we talking then? Are we talking about microfilming them or duplicate negativing them?... [Dennis:] I would microfilm them. Right. [speaker002:] it might turn out to be cheaper [Dennis:] Yeah. [speaker002:] number of drawings we're dealing with. But we could get somebody who knows something about to come and advise. Mm. Certainly sounds as if P Way wouldn't want anything Get, why not get before about after nineteen seventy. Or before nineteen seventy. the plan room to come and advise?... [Terry:] On microfilming or on, or on w [speaker002:] well. On, on microfilming, versus duplicate negatives, versus what else they've got. but I've been down there? We'd need a report order. [Terry:] Yeah. If Jim's gonna, if Jim's gonna micro [speaker002:] all the information on it [Terry:] If Jim's gonna microfilm his stuff, then I think we should microfilm the civils drawings produced since [Dennis:] Nineteen seventy eight. [Terry:] s b since since [Dennis:] Well. Nineteen eighty. [Terry:] Well. I think we should make sure we sweep up the Selby drawings because they do include some fairly good stuff. [speaker002:] more costly [Terry:] I, I realize that. So. Another case of finding the bloody things. [speaker002:] We'd want to go back a bit before that. It's basically since you've got onto your er your vertical S and C, which goes back to about nineteen seventy. [Terry:] Right. [speaker002:] And may just [Terry:] Not that long [Dennis:] make the decision here because I think I think actually somebody needs to sit down and think [Roger:] Yeah. There's [Dennis:] think [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] what, what they do want. [Roger:] Yeah. [Dennis:] Because it may be that you th you, you look back and say, Christ, we've been using those standards since nineteen seventy. [Roger:] Yeah. [Dennis:] So it may be that your standard drawings, you say, oh, goodness me. Let's just have the standard drawings [speaker002:] Yeah. No. We, we normally use those [Dennis:] and be unaware you may not be interested in them. [speaker002:] for er for scheming and any alterations. As a as a [Dennis:] Right. [speaker002:] as a quick means of doing A anyway we can [Dennis:] The action is each function head [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] is really needs to think about how far back w we should go [speaker002:] Yeah. [Dennis:] er with a view to us erm considering [speaker002:] Oops [Dennis:] whether we should erm microfilm drawings for each function. [Terry:] Cos we've got [Dennis:] And I think we should erm [Terry:] we've got records of all the drawings haven't we Rog? That you know our drawing number books once when it's been issued. Presumably Terry's got the same. [speaker002:] Yeah. We have upstairs. [Dennis:] Yeah. So we can quickly scan what we need and then budget for microfilming them, oh within the next two years. [speaker002:] How much do we p pay incidentally for the print room facility? [Terry:] For the print room? [speaker002:] Er the plan room. Sorry. [Terry:] Nothing. Because it's not our plan room. [Dennis:] No. But we [Terry:] They're not our drawings. So. They, they belong to the client. The person who owns the asset. [speaker002:] Well. Somebody must be footing the bill. [Terry:] Yes. E E E East Coast Regional Railways and presumably Freight at one time. [speaker002:] So. We don't contribute to it? [Terry:] No.... It's a bloody massive er that I would [Dennis:] Right.... Good. Any other business? [speaker002:] No. [Roger:] Finished? [speaker002:] Good. Thank you. [Dennis:] Rule review. [Terry:] I'm not doing that [speaker002:] Ah. Please can we leave it. [Dennis:] No. I mean [speaker002:] I can't get my team brief done before everybody goes home now then. What? [Dennis:] Right. Right. I'll be brief A a to be fair Steve Steve has been on standby hasn't he? To rule review us [Terry:] Yes. You're lucky to get Steve I mean [Dennis:] Yeah. [Terry:] he's only here one day a week. [Dennis:] Er eh? [speaker002:] Well it means I won't be able [Dennis:] What time's your t what time's your team brief? When? [speaker002:] Half past three. Four o'clock it maybe could be. But people go home early on Friday. [Roger:] Friday they do.... [speaker002:] Why can't it wait? [Dennis:] There's no reason why it shouldn't. Am I out does everybody else want to wait? [Roger:] Yeah. I could wait. It's been a long day. [speaker002:] It's not a subject that fascinates me. [Dennis:] Right. [Roger:] It's been a long day. [speaker002:] Right. [Dennis:] We'll do it next week some time. Alright Trev? [Terry:] No problem for me boss. I was rule reviewed by John. [Dennis:] Oh. You can do us. [Terry:] Oh. No. I talking back myself. [Dennis:] Would you, would you apologize to Steve on our behalf? [Terry:] I will. [Roger:] He followed me over the. [speaker002:] Has Steve gotta do all staff? [Terry:] No. [Dennis:] No. He was gonna do us and then we we, we [speaker002:] Cascade it down. Cascade it down. I thought we'd agreed that it would be much better if we [Dennis:] Right. Thank you gentl

[speaker001:] Thank you Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen.... There have been suggestions in recent years that there's a sub-group of patients with bladder cancer in whom there is a reduced likelihood of recurrence, and it may be possible in those patients to amend the follow-up protocol and omit the six and nine month check cystoscopies. Before implementing such change in our practice, we reviewed our own experience and assessed the likely impact of that change and I'll present that experience today. The paper which first drew our attention to this possibility was that of Fitzpatrick in nineteen eighty six. He looked at four fourteen patients, with well differentiated on the basis of tumours, and found that both number of tumours and size of tumours were significant in determining the likelihood of recurrence. He also found that pati eighty percent of patients who had a negative three month cystoscopy never had another recurrence in the remainder of their follow up. Conversely, only ten percent of patients who had recurrence at that three month cystoscopy went on to have no further recurrence in the remainder of the follow up. Several other ones issue in a number of different ways. Palmer looked at three hundred and five patients, in an M R C study, and from a multivariate analysis, he found the number of tumours from that diagnosis was the single most feature. The size and the result of the three month check cystoscopy were also of considerable importance.... Morgan in nineteen ninety one took a hundred and seventy patients again found the number of tumours at diagnosis to be most important. Then he looked specifically at the effect of the results of the three month or si six month cystoscopies, but they did note that only those pa only those patients who had recurrence in the first year went on to progressive stage.... And the final paper of, of these. Prout in nineteen ninety two a hundred and seventy patients and again found the number of tumours the most important feature. The size was also important, but only in those patients who had single tumours at presentation.... Despite these, this data, there seems to be little evidence yet of any change in common practice of three month check cystoscopies in the first year, six monthly in the second year, and yearly checks thereafter. The papers I've mentioned did make some suggestions, in particular Palmer, in his paper recommended that if the patient had a single tumour presentation and a negative three month cystoscopy, then subsequent cystoscopy could be performed yearly. Kent performed a mathematical analysis to determine the optimum follow up erm regime, and for patients with well differentiated non-invasive tumours, and no recurrence in the first year, he recommended a nine monthly regime. And finally Morgan, looking again at solitary well differentiated tumours, suggested a regime similar to that of Palmer's, namely missing out two or three of the check cystoscopies in the first year.... We felt from this that there was, there was reasonable evidence to introduce this programme into our practice, and we, we looked at our patients erm at and, and we looked at all patients who'd had moderately or well-differentiated transition cell carcinoma of the bladder at diagnosis, a non-invasive tumour, small, solitary, with a minimum follow up of one year. We didn't routinely measure or weigh our bladder tumours over this time, erm we have excluded any patient, any patient where the weight was recorded to be over ten grammes, and similarly any patient wh where it was recorded that the diameter was greater than three centimetres. And we've also excluded those patients where the surgeon recorded that it was a large, extensive tumour. We excluded patients with carcinoma sutch or tumours at diagnosis.... We divided our patients into three groups, depending on the results of the three month check cystoscopy. Group one had no recurrence at the three months. Group two had recurrence at the site of the original tumour, and group three had recurrence elsewhere in the bladder. We calculated the recurrence rate using the formula here, the number of cystoscopies at which recurrences were found divided the total length of follow up in months, and multiplied by a hundred to produce a convenient figure.... And this is what we found. We identified a hundred and forty one patients who fitted the criteria at the diagnosis. The mean age was sixty three, and the male to female ratio was approximately three to one. The maximum length of follow up was twenty six years. Group one, which is the patients we're particularly interested in, there are ninety two patients here, and eighty percent of them, seventy four patients, had no recurrence in the first year. There were eighteen patients who had recurrence, twenty percent of patients who did have recurrence in the first year, and we've subdivided those, labelling seven patients protocol violators. These were patients who missed the one or more check cystoscopies in that first year, and went on to have recurrence when they were next cystoscopied. The mean recurrence rate for this group overall was one point nine five.... There were forty nine patients who had recurrences... at, at the three month cystoscopy. Erm and the recurrence rates were considerably increased at eight point one and nine point three. And this does tend to add weight to the suggestion that the result of the three month cystoscopy is a good guide to the likelihood of developing recurrence. Looking at recurrences a little closer, of the eighteen patients, fifty percent only had a solitary recurrence in that first year, and no patient had more than four recurrences. Of the protocol violators, those seven patients who missed out a cystoscopy and then had recurrences, six have only had occasional recurrences during the remainder of their follow up, and one required chemotherapy four years from diagnosis, when he developed multiple superficial recurrences.... If we implemented this protocol on these patients, we would certainly be leaving these eighteen patients with small tumours in their bladder for several months longer than would previously have been the case. Now we don't know the long term effect of that, but the experience with the protocol violators suggests that they won't come to any great harm, but obviously the number is small. One patient in the whole series went on erm to progress to muscle invasive disease. He was in group three. That is, he had tumour elsewhere in the bladder at his three month cystoscopy, and no patient has died of bladder cancer from these hundred and forty one patients.... To summarize, for a well flagged group of patients, with small solitary non-invasive transition cell carcinomas at d at diagnosis, and negative three month cystoscopy, we found eighty percent of our patients would certainly have come to no harm at all if their second cystoscopy had been one year from diagnosis. Twenty percent of our patients would have had recurrence in that year, but on the basis of our experience, we think it unlikely they would have come to any great harm, as a result of having their cystoscopy delayed, and we would recommend this protocol to the management of superficial bladder cancer. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] [cough] Thank you. I think what we should do, as we've got two papers on similar topics, is er... take any questions that are specifically related to the t to this paper and the, the methods used in this paper, and then after the next paper have, have both speakers up to address the topic er of er of timing of follow up cystoscopies. Are there any questions now that we would like to ask? [cough] light on the auditorium. Dazzle us a little less, so that we can see.... Right. Can I just ask you, your protocol violators who [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] should have come back but didn't, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] did any of them have symptoms during that time when they had recurrences, that brought them back? [speaker001:] I don't think they did, no. No. They all just came back for a regular routine follow up, just a little bit late. [speaker002:] Right. Well, let's assume you're saving the questions for after the second paper. Shall we now move on to er the next paper, The Better Use of a Check Cystoscopy, by Steve.

[speaker001:] both of our eyes here... possibility that that could be er switched down? Cos it's really very, oh that's much better. I think at that stage we can we can proceed. Erm, this is er I, I suspect this is er a session that er will generate a interest. We are restricted somewhat by time, because I want to get everybody back in the main auditorium to listen to what I know is going to be a fantastic lecture by Professor Don, er from Baltimore, which I would certainly recommend that everybody go and see. Er the moderators this morning are myself, John from Dublin, and Stuart, who is from Newcastle, New South Wales, who is President of the Urological Society of Australasia. And er this is one of the er new things that's happening really er with BAUS this year is that er people are coming from far and wide and chairing session so I'd like to welcome Stuart very much indeed.... Th there are a number of papers, and we're going to start off this morning er with, when people, just I've started actually speaking here so that er to allow people time to come into the room and I know that here we are. So we're having in the first instance There's two seats over there. . He actually is reading a paper from Atlanta, but if he's speaking with a slight Scottish accent then er that's only because he's actually from Scotland. [LAUGHTER] Er he's going to read his paper now. Neil. just over to the other side. [speaker002:] Thank you very much John. Er Mr Chairman, members of, it's a great pleasure to be here today. Before I... erm.... Before I am going to talk about er urodynamic evaluation of patients with symptoms of outflow obstruction, I think it's a good time to be talking about this when, particularly in North America, we're being encouraged to move towards a questionnaire or score in order to select patients for treatment, whether that treatment be surgical treatment or, or other treatment. This is a study of more than two hundred patients that have been entered into a prospective study er since my move to Emery in Atlanta in nineteen eighty nine.... I'll just give these folks coming in the door a moment to [speaker001:] Don't give them too much time. [LAUGHTER] just encourage them to hang around. [speaker002:] This is a very straightforward study, and we don't need to dwell on the, on the er the design. We had two hundred and twelve men, all of these men had er clinical B P H or one or two carcinoma. Er all of these men had moderate or severe symptoms, and all of these patients were candidates for surgery. And instead of taking them to the operating room for a T U R, instead we took them to the urodynamics lab.... In the urodynamics lab, we conducted a comprehensive study that included a uroflow a post-void residual, cystometry and a pressure flow study, and also er simultaneous voiding fluoroscopy. I'd like to report these results. The uroflow er revealed a volume of less than a hundred and fifty mil in the great majority of patients and we've, we would dismiss that er data. Er also patients who had a volume of more than a hundred and fifty mils, er the maximum flow was less than fifteen in, in er only fifty patients.... The post-void study revealed a, a residual volume of more than a hundred mils in about a third of patients,. Cystometry was normal in half and there was instability in the other half. Erm these patients were pretty much equally split between patients who had obstruction and patients who did not have obstruction on a pressure flow study. This is an example of a patient who has a stable cystometogram and in the course of the voiding study voids with a high pressure, the stylus is going up and down the whole time [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] another kind of. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But er here the patient who has a maximum flow of ten, and a voiding pressure of seventeen, and he voids in the course of the study. Here we have a patient who is unstable during the course of filling, and is also obstructed with a low flow, and a high voiding pressure... and finally a patient who is unstable who has a perfectly normal voiding pressure of er thirty five, and a maximum flow of twenty. Unfortunately, we don't have any standardization of characteristics or parameters for obstruction. And this was a hot topic for debate at the I C S in, in er Nova Scotia, and we made absolutely no progress at all er with this issue during that meeting. Er what I have chosen to do is to do what we were doing in the nineteen eighties, which is to take the simplest measure of the maximum flow and the detrusor pressure at that volume... and when we do that, you can see that these patients, instead of being a single group of patients with a single kind of bladder pressure and flow, these patients are all over the map.... If we're going to draw some lines perhaps it would be reasonable to say well patients with a flow of greater than fifteen certainly are unlikely to be obstructed, and patients whose detrusor pressure is less than fifty would seem to fail to satisfy our criteria for obstruction, because obstruction in a urodynamic sense implies a high pressure and a low flow. Now if we put these two parameters on here, we end up with only a small proportion of patients who actually have high pressure and low flow.... So here we've got only thirty seven percent,just o about a third of patients who have high pressure and low flow, although all of these patients would have gone to the operating room for a T U R. If we look at the information that we have on fluoroscopy, erm this was quite helpful er a hundred and thirty five patients seemed to have a fairly open prostatic fissure and the fissure was narrow in seventy seven erm most of the patients with obstructions had a narrow fissure. So if we concentrate our remarks on the findings in those patients who satisfy our criteria, this is just thirty seven percent of two hundred and twelve patients. We find that the sensitivity of the flow rate was less than we had hoped. The sensitivity of the residual urine er was also er very unhelpful. Erm the unstable bladder was present more often amongst our obstructed group although erm this was not something that would distinguish the obstructed patients from the non-obstructed.... So to our surprise of this cohort of patients who would have had a T U R, only about a third had obstruction. The flow rate and the post-void residual did not seem in this study to distinguish the group of patients who had obstruction. Instability was common in the those who were unobstructed as well as those were obstructed, and we felt that really clinical evaluation alone may not be enough to suggest who needs surgery and who doesn't. We felt that this study was weak. Er partly because it's completely impractical to suggest that all patients should have an expensive er video flow study. Partly because this is one void pressure flow study, and so we have evolved from here to take on the sort of technology that was pioneered in this country by David, using a simple ambulatory erm study, and we've added to this... erm er a hard wire connection from a flowmeter. So that as well as measuring pressures, we can have flow and volume data on the same patients and the technique that we now use is to bring these patients in er to challenge them with a large fluid load, er they get an antibiotic, which is actually part of the way that we fund this study, they have a [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They have a, a uroflow here, before the catheter is placed, and then using the diuresis period, we take several measurements of pressure and flow. This has the potential to be a very economic, very easy way to help us to distinguish those pressures Those patients who have high pressures and low flow. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] Thank you very much Neil, particularly for being patient with the er the late arrivals erm early on. Thank you very much indeed. Are there any questions that people would, would like to ask, er I think it's a very important paper, er important also because as most of you know it was all these new technologies and new drug treatments and things like that that are coming in, an awful lot of rather easy criteria are being used to, to look at the, the various things, and I think that's why there's a lot of confusion about what is and is not a good method of treatment.?... Is that mike on? Chris, if you want to come round to this... Neil, what do you do with the patients who don't satisfy your criteria? [speaker002:] Er... what we tell these patients is that they don't have evidence of obstruction, or if they do have obstruction, then that obstruction does not threaten their kidney and that it would be appropriate to wait and watch their symptoms. And as we wait and watch the findings are very much those of Paul in Bristol, that a great deal of these patients get better, and only very few fall into problems. None of these patients are dismissed without any further follow up. [speaker001:] How many of them accepted? [speaker002:] Erm... I don't know how many vote with their feet in going elsewhere, but few of them challenge us at home. Erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] wanting a different treatment. [speaker001:] Yes? Andrew, Newcastle. Actually, I'm afraid I'm sorry that mike seems to be dead, you're going to have to come round and... stand in front of all these hundred and fifty, three hundred people here doctor.... Andrew from Newcastle, I work with er Professor. Er I'd like to draw your attention to my poster upstairs actually cos we, we have now performed major study of er obstruction in the before and after prostatectomy. We have found that are very much more sensitive, for example in detecting instability, erm we found differences pressures of were much higher in ambulatory studies. We haven't looked the correlation to. [speaker002:] Well I think this is partly one of the reasons that as urologists we need to be thinking about changing gear. It's been a very big step to use pressure flow studies at all, and now that we're used to using pressure flow studies, we're going to have to go back to the drawing board and perhaps learn to use a different kind of technology that's ambulatory, that allows us [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] to take multiple measurements of the same patient, rather than making a treatment decision based on a single observation. [speaker001:] , London. [LAUGHTER] Neil, you're, I'm, I'm not quite clear on exactly your definition of obstruction. Your figure of thirty seven percent is much lower than most other series but most other series have different definitions er of obstruction. What, just tell me exactly what you, how you define obstruction. [speaker002:] Well Roger I, I made great pains in the presentation to make clear that this is not a standard, because we don't have a standard. I feel that if a patient has a flow greater than fifteen that that flow is adequate, normal, probably. Of course there's always [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] of course you're going to find one or two patients, but rar a relatively small group, who have flows that are greater than fifteen who have obstruction. I have some patients like that. Erm, clearly you need to have a detrusor pressure in order to be behind that flow, and if this pressure is less than fifty then I think it's unlikely that there's much in the way of obstruction. I'm looking to select patients who have a high pressure and a low flow and for the sake of this study I've drawn my lines at fifty centimetres of water for detrusor pressure during voiding and, and er fifteen mils per second. [speaker001:] So [speaker002:] If we had, if we'd been a bit more rigorous with our criteria, our group would have got smaller. [speaker001:] So y what you're saying is that sixty three percent of patients in America presenting with B P H have a flow rate above fifteen a and voiding pressure below fifty, right? [speaker002:] That's correct. [speaker001:] That's amazing. That's, that's not our experience here. You must be looking at different patients to Would you like to answer that Neil? [speaker002:] I cannot comment [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Well, I have, I have, I'm sure Roger will believe me they're [speaker001:] Okay Neil, we'd better... proceed. Thank you very much indeed for a very provocative programme. I think er a number of the things that are, are meant to be provocative this morning, for example how we get a clinical er evaluation er of patients selected for a T U R P or earlier treatment B P H, but also now

[speaker001:] er on angiogenesis as an indicator of prognosis for invasive bladder cancer presented I believe by erm and representing er colleagues from Bristol, er Oxford and Sheffield. Thank you.... [speaker002:] Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. The relationship between tumour and blood supply has been noted by surgeons and indeed some physicians for centuries. In his thesis on blood, inflammation and gunshot wounds, published in eighteen twenty eight, John Hunter stated that in disease in which there is an increase in the part, as in tumours, the increase in vessels is conspicuous [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Now, our understanding of this relationship has increased dramatically over the past few years and our knowledge of new vessel formation or angiogenesis has also increased. And it is has been shown that angiogenesis is in fact essential to tumour growth. Tumours er greater than two millimetres in size require their own blood supply. It is also essential for metastasis. Now John Hunter noted there was an association between the quantity of the vessels and the tumour and recently this has been er shown with micro-vessel quantification to be an important problems to indicator [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] tumours.... Now, we've used this technique in invasive bladder cancer, and we've quantified the micro-vascularity in a group of invasive cancers and looked at the prognosis and metastasis. We found no res relationship between angiogenesis and metastasis but the rest of this paper will er concentrate on its role in prognosis.... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Forty five patients we looked at, age ranged fifty to ninety one, had the mean age of seventy three. Now follow up ranged between one and fifty one months.... All tumours were solid or had elements of er capillary and solid tumours and, routine sections were stained with a standard aminohistochemical technique, using anti C D thirty one anti-clotting. Now C D thirty one is an endophilial cell adhesion molecule and the antibody has been shown to be the most specific marker of vascoendophilia and consistently in studies has stained more vessels than other markers. We estimated the count er by looking at each individual section at low power and collecting the three most vascular areas. Then with a twenty five point chalky eyepiece graticule er the counts were made at high power. Now when you look down the microscope through the graticule what one sees is twenty five randomly spaced dots overlying your er section. If you rotate the graticule such that the maximum number of dots covers erm a stained and then you count those number of dots, that's the count. And we did that in the three areas, so we used the sum of three vascular counts in the analysis. Now we looked at both capillary tumours and solid tumours, but as this pictures demonstrates, we're not y er able accurately to determine the count of capillary tumours. This is the stain that you get, it's, it's black showing vessels. Now these are all vessels and these aren't the ones that we're interested in, we're interested in the small tumour induced vessels. Because we weren't able to define with any confidence areas of neovascularization in capillary tumours we've based the study on those tumours with solid er solid tumours or those with solid elements.... This is what you see when you do er the staining, on the left is an area of low count. And I don't think, if you can just see small areas of vessel stains, this has a erm only a few vessels present within the solid tumour. But on the right an area of a high count where a great deal more of vessels are present.... Of our forty five patients nine had T two tumours and thirty six had T three tumours. Thirty three had a solid morphology and twelve had a mixed morphology.... Now we performed uni-variant analysis looking at all the parameters shown on the left. We confirmed, which was j with a bit of luck, that T two tumours do significantly better than T three tumours, P value of nought point nought nought two. We also showed that grade two do significantly better than grade three, but most importantly perhaps is that we showed that patients with a vascular count that are less than twenty one do significantly better than patients with a vascular count of greater or equal to twenty one. P value of nought point nought one. We showed no significant difference between solid or mixed tumours and significant difference between tumours which had diploid picture or haploid picture on a D N A analysis. We then placed all these parameters in a multi-variant analysis. The only two that remained significant were stage and vascular count. In other words, vascular count is a significant, independent prognostic er indicator in this group of invasive bladder cancers.... Look at the survival curve of the vascular count, percentage of surviving up the Y axis and time in months on the on the X axis. [clears throat] These two curves are significantly different. The top curve, in yellow, is for counts less than twenty one, now the four year survival for this group is around forty three percent. With a median survival of thirty five months. Compared with those counts of greater or equal to twenty one, which is the white curve, greater or equal to twenty one, white curve, which is the lower curve. And this four year survival of only twenty three percent with a median survival of around nine months.... Now to calculate the hazard ratio on these two groups, those patients with counts of greater or equal to twenty one were two and half times more likely to die of their disease than those with counts of less than twenty one. In a paper that was published in nineteen eighty five, Journal of Urology, Shipley looked at prognostic factors in invasive cancer. The overall er five year survival for all, all invasive cancers are around about er twenty percent er twenty eight percent. But within this group he looks specifically at solid tumours and they only have a four year survival of twenty percent. So using vascular counts we are able to define a group of patients that do significantly better.... Therefore this simple technique of counting vessels as an assessment of angiogenesis does provide us with additional prognostic information and is good for patients.... And in summary, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, we would suggest that the assessment of angiogenesis in bladder cancer is an important and promising er prognostic indicator and has therapeutic implications. Not only in being able to select a group where perhaps we can justify more aggressive therapy, or even a group that perhaps we should just treat palatally but also in the future with the development of anti- angiogenic therapy.... Thank you very much. [speaker001:] [clapping] I'd like to start the question briefly with two points, firstly, you had forty nine patients? [speaker002:] No. We had forty five. [speaker001:] Forty five. Y you must have had many more than forty five [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] tumours [LAUGHTER] over the last [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] year or so []. [speaker002:] Th we're limited to solid tumours or patients that have an element of solid tumour on histology. We did in fact have sixty eight patients, unfortunately erm thirteen of these insufficient biopsy material for us to do the count erm and [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm we excluded all the superficial ones that had solid because it was insufficient er one patient we couldn't get the stain to work. [speaker001:] Right. Just that multi-variant analysis on forty five leaves you with some very tiny subgroups. [speaker002:] Yeah. I it does. We weren't erm we weren't able to do a multi-variant analysis with the grade because we didn't have a sufficient number of, of the grade to do it. But we er the, there were sufficient for all the other. [speaker001:] Microphone five, please. a question. Mark from Liverpool. The way that erm one might have effective treatment for muscle invasive bladder cancer, if one uses radiotherapy, is maintain a decent oxygen supply to the tumour and if one uses chemotherapy to deliver the blood to the tumour. Have you got any information about the efficacy of the treatments that were used in those? [speaker002:] We haven't we haven't analyzed the results according to the treatment that the patients received. Erm we know that three patients had cystectomies and one er that then the remainder have radiotherapy but I haven't analyzed the results dividing them into curative or potent radiotherapy. [speaker001:] And none had chemotherapy? [speaker002:] Erm, I think one had, one had chemotherapy. There, we hadn't got enough in the group to, to make that erm analysis. [speaker001:] Microphone five, again. Er, Glouston. I noticed your survival curves tend to er come together er in about four years, and you're not attending in that direction. [speaker002:] Well, then all survival curves will eventually [speaker001:] Well, of. [speaker002:] come together won't they? [speaker001:] Now did you, did you find that er were you ab were you able to repeat any of the biopsies and see whether in the er in the er group with the less vessels more, more vessels were er accumulating? Er? [speaker002:] We haven't looked at any of the repeat biopsies, no. We didn't look at them, we just chose death as an end point because it's the easiest end point to choose. So we looked at just the,th the histology of the patient and related it to the prognosis. We haven't looked. [speaker001:] Microphone two, please. Er Joanna from Middlesbrough. I just want to ask you about the actual erm methodology, which sections did you examine? And you said you just chose the three most vascular, could you tell me a bit more [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] about that? [speaker002:] The section we chose were the ones that were chosen by the pathologist because they were the best representative sample of that tumour. [speaker001:] In what respect? [speaker002:] In, in being able to stage or grade them. [speaker001:] In what respect? [speaker002:] I don't know, what do you mean by in wh [speaker001:] I mean th there are pretty clear cut guidelines for doing morphometric analysis of erm tumour erm er tumour structure. You know, cells, erm vascular tissue, connective tissue matrix. Which particular technique did you use? Because you just seem to have chosen the things by looking, not by actually randomly sampling from the tumours. [speaker002:] W we cut,th the path pathological er er the where the blocks come from, they're graded one, two, three, four. One is the best example from the tumour that came from the reception. [speaker001:] So that was a na er that was a naked eye examination? [speaker002:] Well we know that from the repo the initial report [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] done by the pathologist. He'd designated that was the best block. We cut that section, we stained it and then looked at it under low power and selected out from that block the three most vascular areas. We could have chosen the three least vascular areas but then the counts wouldn't have been, would have been much more difficult.. [speaker001:] Yeah, but why wouldn't they have been much more relevant? Because y you, obviously you've presented different information in your talk this afternoon, you've given us more information that was in your abstract, so the figures are different, where you, in your abstract you just talked about differences between G three, T three tumours. [speaker002:] Well in the abstract we were loo we, I bought them and decided whether they are high or low counts, we now have a way of quantifying that, we have a way of counting each individual er vessel. So we're can no we can number them as such. [speaker001:] Well, ha, there's no point counting things unless the counts are relevant to the condition you're looking at. If you can just look at the naked eye appearance and choose three areas that you think are most vascular from a one-off block. [speaker002:] No. They're not it's not just choosing th they're stained [speaker001:] It's not going, going to be representative. [speaker002:] the areas are the most stained. They're the most strongly stained areas, they have the most vessels, therefore you choose to count them. [speaker001:] Yeah and I think were not, we'll perhaps talk afterwards. Can I suggest you do so? Yeah. [cough] Microphone one please. Er in use of other you should have the difference in survival between the patients that had more than twenty one or less than twenty one but actually it er you didn't show us the survival curves for [cough] reaction against the survival curves er with the G er pathology grade and the G with the tumour and to see actually the difference which we can, in curves which we can deduct from counting the vascularity. [speaker002:] No. We chose just to show this one curve of vascular count cos that's what we think is important. [speaker001:] Cos if we have seen the, the same survival curves according to the er pathology so it'll have been er more that G three is worse than G two but er there is a difference in your curves between the grading quality and the vascularity. We know now that it's really needed to count the vessels because we will get definitely more information. [speaker002:] Well the uni-variant analysis and the multi-variant analysis shows that i it is, adds additional information. I didn't show you the, the grade and the stage curves because we all know what they look like but what I'm saying is that by doing the count provides us with additional information on this group of patients. More than we can gain from looking at the grade and the stage. [speaker001:] I think the real nitty gritty of this question is, given a T tumour can you pick out the good from the bad using this technique? And can you give us the figures to support that? [speaker002:] Erm... from a specifically, no, what I we can pick out the bad solid tumours and the good solid tumours. [speaker001:] Yes but you accepted that T staging was still the strongest prognostic indicator [speaker002:] Yes, it is. [speaker001:] we will all continue using that. If we add to that your technique [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] will it benefit us and the patient? [speaker002:] From this pilot study I cannot say yes or no, but what I can say is that this pilot study suggests that it will [speaker001:] It may. [speaker002:] It may. A and numbers in our, a s in a stage group too small to say definitely that we can pick out those T two tumours badly or well on the vascular count. But what we can say is that we can select out from the group of solid tumours the ones that do badly. [speaker001:] Can we look forward to your poster next year with a couple of hundred T two patients? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] Mm. Have you another question? Yes, I was just wondering, er raise one point. The C D thirty one staining, is that just identifying blood vessels? Or is it possibly staining blood vessels that, that are under attack by vascular invasion? [speaker002:] Erm... I can't answer that. Erm because I, I know that er cell adhesion molecule C D thirty one is present in all erm vascular, vascular endophilia whether it's, it's erm er expressed in more erm vessels average... [speaker001:] Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Oh, we've got one more quick question. Oh, two. Okay. Microphone one please. Come on. We've got just er two minutes. . If this is another exhibition of the intercapillary distance in er progno in defining the prognosis

[speaker001:] .... [cough] [speaker002:] Chairman and Chairman. Colleagues. That's original at any rate. Erm there are several strains in current use, produced by different manufacturers of B C G, used for the treatment of erm superficial, by which I mean T A, P T A, P T one and in situ disease in the bladder. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] Little is known of the relative efficacy and toxicity of different strains. Therefore in ninety eighty eight the M R C superficial bladder cancer sub-group of the Urological Cancer Working Party set up a study to compare what, at that time, were the commonest strains in use in this country. Er they were the Evans strain, previously Glaxo and the Pasteur strain, made in Paris. And the study was not er designed to include er in situ disease, so we're dealing entirely with P T A and P T one recurrent tumours. There were three objectives in this study, first of all, to measure the response of a marker tumour to the two strains of B C G. Secondly, to measure the incidence of recurrent disease erm while patients were under maintenance therapy, with B G C over a two year period. We decided at that time to follow Brosman's erm regimen which er had had the lowest recurrence rate then reported. And thirdly, to compare adverse events erm er noted with the two strains of B G C. This paper refers to the objectives one and three and the incidence of recurrent disease will be the subject of a later report.... All the patients who were entered into this study were patients with multiple P T A, P T one, erm N X, M naught tumours, then I must stress that they were problem patients. These were patients who either had previously or were being considered for erm intravascular chemotherapy, or even for cystectomy, they were not the patients who may have had one or two recurrences noted at check cystoscopy.... There were the usual exclusion criteria for any erm trial of malignant disease. Before entry into the study, each patient had a cystoscopy and at that time the number and position of tumours within the bladder were noted, the largest tumour was measured in two diameters and was resected into muscle, one tumour was selected as a, a reference tumour and left in situ and all the rest of the tumours were resected. The patient was then randomized to receive either a course of Evans or Pasteur B G C.... The dose was selected to be comparable er, each strain was comparable to the other in terms of dose, B G C was instilled for one hour and then the patient er underwent er weekly installations for six weeks. Three months after entry into the study another cystoscopy was performed, again the number of tumours was counted... and all tumours were, were exsected, if tumours indeed were seen. If the erm marker tumour was present it was measured in two diameters and was resected. If the marker tumour was not seen then the site of the marker tumour was resected. All histological material, both from the first cystoscopy and the second cystoscopy, was sent both to the local pathologist and then representative sections sent to the reference pathologist.... Both groups of patients, those receiving Pasteur and receiving the er... erm Evans B G C, were comparable in terms of sex and age, the category and the grade of the tumour, the number of tumours, the size of the largest tumour, the duration of disease and the size of the marker tumour left in the bladder. I will not bore you with going through a lot of slides showing those comparisons, but in a short paper erm you must take my word for it that the two groups were comparable. Ninety nine patients were entered into this study, two were ineligible, one because of previous malignancy and one because no marker tumour was left in the bladder. That left fifty one to receive Evans B G C and forty six, Pasteur. Three patients, all who happened to be in the Pasteur group were subsequently unavailable. One was lost to follow up before the three month cystoscopy, one died of cardiac failure before their three month cystoscopy and one important patient developed bilateral ureteric obstruction and underwent a cystectomy two months after entry into the study. The histology of the removed bladder showed widespread invasive bladder tumour, not only across the base of the bladder obstructing both ureters but also at other sites in the bladder as well. I put it to you that it is unlikely that such widespread invasive tumour arose from one small marker lesion and the surgeon concerned that this was a staging error initially.... Now, what were the results at the three month cystoscopy? This slide shows erm the findings.... They, you can see that the patients can be considered in four groups, those in the top line which in which the marker tumour was absent and no other tumours were seen in the bladder. The next line, the marker tumour was absent but other tumours were seen in the bladder. There were no examples in line three of patients in which the marker tumour was still present, but no other tumours were seen.... But there were a substantial number of patients in which the marker tumour was present and other tumours were also present. Those results would suggest that the other tumours were in fact new tumours, rather than persistent tumours which had been missed at the first cystoscopy.... Although it er the numbers are small it appears from that as if the response of the marker tumour to Pasteur B G C might be better than to Evans but I can assure that there is no statistical difference in those values. Admittedly, if we had entered five times as many patients there might have been a significant difference but it might have gone either way and we have not been able to show any improvement in response erm to either the Pasteur relative to the Evans or vice versa.... Now, what of the adverse events?... Adverse events were noted a at each installation of B G C and at the time of the first cystoscopy and were scored for severity and the highest score was then re recorded and appears on this erm histogram which relates to frequency as a symptom. Each of the next few slides has the same format.... You will see that there is a very similar distribution of the severity of symptoms of the symptom of frequency in the two groups and that is the case for all the symptoms which were recorded.... For dysuria,... for haematuria, slightly more possibly in the i in the Pasteur group but nothing that reaches statistical significance. Fever and malaise... joint pains and hepatic disfunction.... At the three month cystoscopy, in addition to erm recording the actual tumours in the bladder, the inflammatory response was also recorded and ascribed a score. Er o er ascribed a description of mild, moderate or severe and the degree of inflammatory response was virtually identical in the two groups.... In the slide in which I showed the overall results it appears that about half the patients, the erm marker tumour had been eradicated and in quite a lot of patients there were tumours present. And I must stress that these were all problem patients and if tumours were present they were recorded as so on that previous slide but they were often present in greatly reduced numbers. This shows that in well over eighty percent there were fewer tumours at the three month cystoscopy than there were before the B G C was instilled.... So the conclusions from this M R C study are as follows. First of all, that the marker tumour is eradicated by a six week course of B G C in just over fifty percent of patients and that the number of tumours is reduced in at least eight five percent. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] That in this relatively small study, there was no significant difference in the efficacy or the toxicity of those two strains of B G C.... And thirdly, that it erm demonstrates the usefulness of the marker tumour principle in testing the therapeutic efficacy of agents used in P T A, P T one disease. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] Thank you. And the paper's now open to discussion. Would you like to come to microphone one please? Er if you do go to microphones three, which is the one at the back, it's rather difficult to see you with the spotlight in my face. If you could wave the programme we're more likely to see you. Microphone one, first. Er from Cairo.

[speaker001:] invitation from me, and also the Urological Society. Thank you.... And now I introduce erm Mr to present his paper on the northern regions of. [speaker002:] Thank you erm Mr Chairman. Er Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen I'd like to present the early result of an audit of of the prostate which has been performed over the northern region.... Er the audit period spanned eight months starting [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] April nineteen ninety one and ended on the thirty first of November. Twelve out of sixteen separate hospital sites within the northern region were included. One of these sites was a teaching hospital and the remaining eleven sites were a mixture of large and small district general hospitals.... Erm the northern region audit preceded er the national audit er and has been presented by er Mr and its erm data collection differed from it in that erm all notes were reviewed at three months er by using a standard pro forma independently by two clinical coordinators and so would not be [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] upon self by medical staff at each site. And all medical staff at each site knew what data was being collected before the audit started.... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] W we have obviously collected a lot of data er from the audit and today I'm presenting the initial er early result. Our main aims initially have been to assess mortality and major morbidity arising from T U R P within the northern region and assessing also the inter-site variation for this. In our er assessment of major morbidity we have included a return to theatre, er a postoperative blood transfusion of, of more than two units of blood and the development of postoperative sepsis. We have also assessed written evidence in the notes of counselling for retrograde ejaculation.... Er in our first assessments of mortality and major morbidity we would classify our consultants into three types, general surgeons with an interest in urology, district general hospital urologists and teaching hospital urologists. We have also looked at the effect of volume on er mortality and major morbidity by comparing sites where fewer than one hundred cases were performed during the audit period, sites where more than one hundred cases were performed and we have also examined the effects upon mor mortality of both admission types and histology.... During the audit period one thousand four hundred and thirty one operations are performed and of them one thousand three hundred and ninety six were T U R P. The mean patient age was seventy one years and the mean weight resected was twenty seven grammes. The percent of patients er who were put into the audit erm varied from four to thirty five percent erm site for site.... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] This shows the early postoperative mortality and we have defined early mortality as appearing at less than thirty days. The mean overall early mortality was point nine percent and the inter-site variation for this ranged from zero to three point eight percent.... The late postoperative mortality, and we have defined this as death occurring between thirty and ninety days, was a mean of three point seven percent for the region as a whole and the inter-site variations for this ranged from one point seven percent to six point eight percent. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] would say that there were no differences in mortality rates when looking at the various classifi classifications and control. The early mortality for elected admissions was point four percent and this was found to be significantly lower than the early mortality rate for emergency admissions which was two point four percent, some six times higher. The late mortality rate for elected admission was two point nine percent and this again was significantly less than the er er late mortality rate for emergency admissions which was six point one percent.... Examining the effects of histology, histological type, the early mortality patient with benign was point three percent and this was significantly less than the early mortality for those patients who had prostate cancer, which was two point nine percent, almost ten times greater. The late mortality rate for disease was one point seven percent and again this was significantly less than the late mortality for patients with prostate cancer, which was some four times higher at eight point four percent.... A mean of two percent of patients were returned to theatre across the northern region after T U R P and this ranged from zero to seven point five percent.... A mean of two point four percent of patients received a blood transfusion of greater than two units across the region and again this ranged from zero to six point six percent across the region.... A mean of eight percent of patients developed postoperative sepsis and we have classified patients as having de developed postoperative sepsis if they have developed two out of three of the following, a temperature of greater than thirty eight degrees celsius, or a positive blood culture.... The rate for this was zero to sixteen point nine percent across the region. You may have noticed over the last three slides that several of sites have had a zero er percentage registered and we certainly feel that in a couple of these sites this was probably due to poor note-keeping rather than a percentage. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [cough] [cough] [speaker002:] This slide shows the cumulative percent of early mortality and major morbidity. The dark areas on the slide are er, the dark areas on each bar at the bottom represent the early mortality rate. The hatched areas represent returning to theatre, the white areas represent blood transfusion of greater than two units and a hatched area represent patients developing postoperative sepsis. If it's expressed as a percentage of patients... the bar on the left side represents those sites who performed more than one hundred cases during the audit period. There were five of these sites and in the tot in total nine hundred and twenty eight operations were performed over the five sites. This bar on the right hand side represents those sites where less than one hundred cases were performed during the eight month audit period, there were seven of these sites and they performed a total of four hundred and sixty eight operations. When we looked at the cu cumulative percentage mortality and major morbidity it was found to be significantly less in those sites performing more than one hundred operations, compared to those sites performing less than one hundred operations, during the audit period.... In a mean of thirty percent of patients across the region there was evidence o well there was written evidence of counselling for retrograde ejaculation and this varied from zero to just under seventy one percent. We found that patients who were significantly younger er sorry we found that patients who were counselled for retrograde ejaculation were significantly younger er but we also found that marital status did not seem to have an effect on whether they were counselled for retrograde ejaculation or not.... In summary, Mr Chairman, the overall mortality rate for disease, for T U R P, over the northern region was point three percent and this compares very well with the large published theories from America but we did find large inter-site variations for both mortality and major morbidity rates. We also er demonstrated that mortality and major morbidity rates were significantly higher in sites treating fewer than one hundred patients compared with sites treating more than one hundred patients. So we feel that there may be a volume effect. This difference could not be explained by the distribution of either histological types or admission types between the erm sites that had less than one hundred cases and those that had more than one hundred cases. We did find however that histological type and admission type overall had a significant adverse effect on mortality and overall we feel that written ev evidence of counselling for retrograde ejaculation was poor and was not acceptable. Thank you. [speaker001:] [clapping] Thank you Mr. We have time for several questions, I wonder if you'd be kind enough

[speaker001:] So Are you ready then? Right? listen to what you've got to say. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Consumer accounts [speaker002:] Good afternoon to you. I don't know whether it's ever occurred to you but it is act [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] it is actually a bit intimidating to be confronted with a roomful of teachers like yourselves. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm [LAUGHTER] I, I feel as if you're gonna to say to me something like erm could do better, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] er see me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Or as it said on my school report for P E er tries hard but lacks stamina. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I've always remembered that phr erm well now consumer affairs. consumer affairs are of course very important not only in retirement but throughout life. And consumer problems and consumer decisions are certainly not going to go away in retirement because we're all, including myself who retired at the March, are still going to be faced with consumer decisions. In retirement some of you may be thinking of erm having some improvement work done to your house. You may be thinking of moving house altogether and going to live in a different part of the country. You may be thinking of treating yourself to a holiday erm or something of that kind. And even if you're not contemplating any of those things, as I've said you're still going to be faced with decisions about goods that you want to buy and services that you want to buy for your home. Now you will know there are a great many er programmes on television nowadays and articles in newspapers and magazines designed to try to help us to be a bit more aware [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] of what our rights are as shoppers and also what our responsibilities are as shoppers. And to help us to try to avoid some of the more obvious pitfalls to be avoided. But despite all those programmes on television and articles in newspapers and magazines the fact still remains, an awful lot of people do have problems when they go shopping. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that. Erm things go wrong and there are many different reasons why things go wrong. People buy goods and then find, for one reason or another the goods are faulty, or they're unsatisfactory in some way and the customer then tries to get some kind of compensation. One of you was talking to me at er lunchtime and telling me that he recently bought er er a C D of Dvorak's Slavonic dances and when he played it it turned out to be some [LAUGHTER] country and western music []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well we smile but I'm sure that's by no me I'm sure that's not a unique case and I'm sure things like that have happened to many of you. Erm so as I've said things go wrong. To give you an idea of how widespread the problem is the Trading Standards Department in Nottinghamshire er has set up three advice centres to help consumers with information and advice when you have problems like that. There's w one of those in Nottingham there's one in Newark and there's one in Mansfield. Now I imagine yo you come from all different parts of the county so I'd better tell you where they are. The Mansfield one is in Mansfield Market Square in the same building as the Citizen's Advice Bureau. Er the Newark one is on a road called Middlegate which those of you who know Newark will know is not far from Newark Market Square. Er the Nottingham one is on a road called Middle Pavement. If you're not quite sure where Middle Pavement is if you think of the rear exit of the Broadmarsh Centre, the escalator exit, the escalator brings you out onto a road called Middle Pavement which slopes quite steeply downhill. And there's Marks and Spencers at the bottom of the slope. Do you know where I mean now? Well if you walk up that hill keeping Marks and Spencers on your left hand side, the top part of the hill is called Middle Pavement and still on your left hand side you'll see a green sign, Trading Standards Advice Centre. And I think for many of you in this room that'll be the nearest Consumer Advice Centre to where you live. But in those three advice centres er we receive er in round figures we receive about four hundred complaints and enquiries about shopping problems, every week, all the year round. So to put it another way you could say in a typical year we would receive about twenty thousand complaints and enquiries about shopping. That's an awful lot of complaints. These are things like faulty shoes, faulty jeans, er faulty furniture, faulty cameras, faulty video machines, erm holidays which have gone disastrously wrong, complaints about double glazing, complaints about builders, plumbers, electricians, hairdressers. You name it. About twenty thousand a year in Nottinghamshire alone. Now you may think to yourself, goodness, what an awful lot of complaints. And of course it is. But you do have to put figures like that in some kind of perspective. Bear in mind that Nottinghamshire is quite a large county [cough] there are about one million people living in Nottinghamshire. Now most of those one million people will go to a shop of some kind pretty well, pretty well every day in your life. You might just pop to a corner shop to buy some chocolate and som box of matches, some sweets a magazine, a newspaper. Er all of us go to a shop of some sort pretty well every day. Now, including of course sundries. Now if you multiply that by the one million people living in Nottinghamshire you'll see that every day, all the year round, there are millions of sales taking place. Millions of transactions taking place. People buying and selling things. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] In the great majority of those cases nothing goes wrong. The customer goes away quite happy with their part of their transaction and the shop are quite happy with their part of it. And it's only in the minority of cases where things go wrong that come to the attention at the Trading Standards Department. Which means of course if you work for Trading Standards, as I did until very recently... if you work for Trading Standards you tend to get a rather jaundiced view of shopping. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] All we ever hear about are disasters and complaints and things that have gone wrong. And we never hear about the thousands and thousands of sales that must take place every day where nothing's gone wrong at all. So [speaker001:] Sounds like school. [speaker002:] as I say [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Just like school. It does tend to get you rather jaundiced. [LAUGHTER] And it is a refreshing change to t to talk to someone who's bought something from shop and they have no complaints whatever. Now as I say in round figures it's about twenty thousand just in this one county alone. Now what we have to do, in all those cases, is look at every one. First of all ask ourselves is this a genuine problem? Is it a real grievance? If it is how has it happened and who erm er who's to blame? Is it the customer's own fault? Is it the fault of the shop? Or are they both at fault? [cough] Quite honestly a lot of them do turn out to be the customer's own fault. You've probably heard the phrase the customer is always right but believe me it's not true. [LAUGHTER] Er and anyone who works for Trading Standards will tell you it's not true. A lot of you'd be surprised how gullible a lot of people are and frankly a lot of shopping problems do turn out to be the shopper's own fault. For example a lot of people change their mind about wanting goods and decide I don't think I want that new pair of shoes after all. Or I don't think I want that new pair of jeans. I've taken a dislike to the colour. Er and what the law says is if you change your mind I'm afraid the law doesn't entitle you to anything at all. You're only entitled to money back if the goods are faulty in some way. There's got to be something actually wrong with the goods before you can claim money back. So there are a lot of people who change their mind. There are also a lot of people who damage or misuse things they bought from shops, usually clothes where people haven't bothered to read the washing instructions. And it might say do not dry clean and the customer has it dry cleaned and of course the garment is very likely going to be ruined. Or it might say hand wash only and the customer puts it in a washing machine. So again they wouldn't really be entitled to money back in cases like that. But there are a lot of problems which are the fault of the shop but we find these are usually caused by mistakes and misunderstandings. And we find that mistakes and misunderstandings are a far more common cause of complaint than deliberate dishonesty or someone trying to cheat you or rip you off. There are dishonest traders about unfortunately, just as I suppose there are dishonest people in most walks of life but we like to think that in Nottinghamshire they are in a s small minority. But they do exist. There are undoubtedly er rogues or cowboys about. Unscrupulous traders. Er and it is that minority of unscrupulous traders who make life very difficult for you and of course make life very difficult for Trading Standards. But most of the problems that we get are not caused by deliberate cheating, they're caused by genuine mistakes. What I'd like you to remember is this. People who work in shops are perfectly ordinary people, aren't they? Just like you and me. And we all make mistakes sometimes. Erm I freely admit that I do that myself. I've no doubt Bernard does. We all do. However efficient we think that we are, if we're honest with ourselves we have to admit we all sometimes make a mistake. And of course the same is true of shop assistants so do please make allowances for human error. And the next time you buy something from a shop and find there's something wrong with it don't just jump to conclusions that you've been deliberately cheated. You may have been of course. But it's much more likely to be due to human error. Now out of those four hundred complaints that we receive every week, if you take away all those which are the customer's own fault and all those which are caused by genuine mistakes you're still left with a lot of problems which are caused either by ignorance of the law or misinterpretation of the law. Do any of you know what the law is called that gives you your rights when you buy [speaker001:] Consumer Protection Act. Sale of Goods Act. [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Sale of Goods Act. [speaker002:] Sale of Goods Act. Well done sir. Go to the top of the class. [LAUGHTER] Sale of Goods Act. Right. Okay. Now, so, the name of the actual Act of Parliament is Sale of Goods Act er and that's the law that gives you and me and everybody in Britain our basic rights every time we buy something from a shop or in a sale or a market stall or by post through a mail order catalogue. It's called the Sale of Goods Act. Another phrase that's often used for the same thing is your statutory rights. So if you see that phrase written down anywhere you'll know it means Sale of Goods Act. That phrase, your statutory rights is often put in guarantees. I don't know whether you ever take the trouble to read the guarantee. I know a lot of people don't bother. For one thing they're often in very tiny print. For another they're often full of legal [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] which is a bit difficult to sort out. But if you do read the guarantee you will nearly always find a sentence that says this guarantee does not affect your statutory rights. Have you ever noticed that? It's an interesting phrase that. You may have wondered well why is that phrase put in the guarantee? Well the reason it's put there is simply to remind you that the guarantee is always a plus or an extra. It's never intended to be a substitute or a replacement for your statutory rights. And even if you tore the guarantee up and threw it away erm a you've still statutory rights, anyway, given to you under the Sale of Goods Act. So a guarantee is totally separate and nothing to do really with your statutory rights. Now we've had a Sale of Goods Act in Britain for a long time. The first one came out in eighteen ninety three. So you could say for exactly a hundred years we've had a basic law designed to give us rights every time we go shopping. But despite the fact we've had that law for so long you'll find that not many people [LAUGHTER] know about it []. Erm it is if you like a closely guarded secret. Obviously the law has been updated since eighteen ninety three. The one we have now is called the Sale of Goods Act nin nineteen seventy nine. Now the Sale of Goods Act is good erm as far as it goes but it's [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] by no means perfect and there are some loopholes in it that we'll have a look at in a moment. Right. So let's just have a look then at what our statutory rights are under the Sale of Goods Act. Erm and this is the reason why I brought this tape recorder, and I was saying to Bernard a moment ago, one of the most embarrassing things that can happen erm when talking to a group like this is when you pressed a button er whether it's a, a tape recorder a video machine or whatever, you pressed a button full of confidence in all the latest technology and there's an embarrassing silence. And I can, the number of times this has happened to me with school video machines [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] is beyond belief. Erm I had one the other day where er it was s supposed to be, it was described as a brand new video machine and we got the most perfect picture, beautifully clear picture, but no sound whatever. Even when the sound button was pressed we couldn't get any sound volume m sound out of it whatever. So in the end I said to the chairman oh I'll, we'll leave the, we'll forget the video. I'll make do with slides. And I pressed the button of the slide projector again full of confidence. The first slide jammed straight away. Hopelessly jammed. And in trying to free the jammed slide the whole of the carousel tipped upside down [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and all my beautifully arranged slides all arranged the right way up and all in the right order all tipped all over the floor. So it was a pretty poor start really I felt to the talk. [speaker001:] And then the class started to fight. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And then the class started to fight. And I'm sure things like that don't happen in your school. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. Er okay. Now. So we'll press this then full of confidence and see what happens. This is a typical problem that would come into one of our advice centres where a consumer has bought something,f failed to get any satisfaction from the shop and then has gone to the advice centre to er has found and tries to find the nearest Citizen's Advice Bureau or Advice Centre to try to get advice. [tape playing] [cough] Right. Well you all sat listening to that with riveted [LAUGHTER] atten riveted attention []. Erm let's just pause a moment there because there's a bit of legal language there that we need to sort out. First of all you will notice that the erm consumer adviser used the word contract which is an important word to remember. And I think that a lot of shoppers tend to forget that every time you buy anything from a shop, even if all you spent is ten pence, it doesn't matter how little money you've spent, but every time you buy anything from a shop you have a contract with the shop and the shop has a contract with you. As a result of that contract of course you have some rights er but the shop have some rights as well. I think one of the problems is, that a lot of shoppers don't realize that they're entering into a contract and we don't realize it for the simple reason that most people have, as soon as you hear the word contract you have a mental image of a legal document that you sign, don't you? If you, if you buy a house you sign a contract. And most people think that's what a contract is. But in shopping it's not like that is it? You wouldn't normally sign a legal document. Well I suppose you would if you were buying the goods on credit but normally, for an everyday transaction buying some food for example, you wouldn't normally sign a legal document. You might not even say anything if it's a self-service store. In a self-service store you choose the goods that you want. You take the goods to the checkout. You hand over your money at the checkout. The, the goods are then handed to you. You walk out of the shop and the goods are then your property. And it seems, on the face of it quite simple and quite straightforward doesn't it? But it's not as simple as it appears. Because just by that simple act of handing over your money at the checkout and receiving the goods in exchange, just by doing that, you have entered into a contract with the shop and as, as a result of that contract you've got the three rights which the consumer advisor mentioned on the tape. Let's, let's just have a look at what those phrases mean in plain [LAUGHTER] Eng in plain English []. Merchantable qualities. That phrase sounds a bit old-fashioned nowadays. The word merchantable isn't one that's, isn't normally used much today. It sounds old-fashioned because that's the phrase that's used in the original Sale of Goods Act of eighteen ninety three. I think today we would use a phrase like reasonable quality, satisfactory quality, or acceptable quality. So all that phrase means, in plain English, is that the goods should be of a reasonable standard and in particular it means that the goods should not be broken or damaged or faulty and whatever you've bought should work. It's very annoying isn't it if you buy something from a shop and find it won't work? Especially if you don't realize that till you've got, till you've got home and you realize you've got to go through all the hassle of going back to the shop to complain. So whatever you've bought shouldn't be broken or damaged or faulty and it should work. An example of that would be [sigh] if you bought a new pocket calculator and then find it won't work then the legal position is the shop have broken their contract with you, because they've sold you a pocket calculator which is not of merchantable quality, and you should be entitled to money back in a case like that. But you, besides that you've got two other rights. You've got the right whatever you've bought should be as described, which brings us back to your problem of the C D described as Slavonic dances when really it was country and western. So again, the shop have broken their contract with you. Or if, what would be another example? If you bought some shoes described as leather and they turned out to be made of plastic then clearly you've bought some shoes which are not as described. A sheep if you buy a sheepskin coat from a market stall then it should be sheepskin not made of manmade fibres and not made of any other animal. Fit for the purpose. That phrase always makes me smile because er my wife recently bought a pair of tights with three legs in the tights. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] And I assure you [] she would have every right to go back to the shop and say look these tights are not fit for their purpose. Er but seriously that phrase doesn't just mean [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] fit for the purpose in the general sense, it also means fit for the purpose in any particular sense you had made known to the shop. For example if you went into a bicycle shop and said can you sell me a bike suitable for a seven year old child? Well that, I think that was a quite specific request. Or if you went into a D I Y shop, not me because I'm the world's worst D I Y person. But if you did and said can you sell me some erm emulsion paint, which is non-drip, and they sell you some matt paint, which drips, then clearly they've sold you something which was not fit for the purpose that you had specified. So those three things are called your statutory rights and you've got them as long as you buy the goods from a shop or a trader or someone who's in business. Alright? Erm but, and this is a very big but, if you buy privately erm you don't have those three rights any more. Buying privately means if you buy from an ordinary member of the public not a shop. For example the classified ads column in the Nottingham Evening Post. The column where people advertise second hand bikes, second hand sewing machines, second hand cars and all the rest of it. Where you're not buying from a trader, you're buying from an ordinary member of the public. We call that buying privately. If you buy privately you lose that right straight away. [pen on paper] [cough] And you also lose that. [pen on paper] So what it means is if you buy privately instead of having three statutory rights you've only got one. So you'll see straight away erm by buying privately your, your legal protection is far more limited than it was before. A good example of that is a car. If you buy a second hand car from a car dealer you would have your three statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act. But a lot of people buy a second hand car privately, and there are pages of these in the Nottingham Evening Post every day you know where people are paying a few hundred pounds, or it may be a few thousand pounds, for a second hand car. Now if you do that the only right you've got, in law, is that the car should be as described. [cough] That would mean that any statement made about the car should ha w should be true. For example a statement about the number of miles it's done, or the number it's had. Those statements should be true but erm you wouldn't have the right that it was of merchantable quality. So you'll see straight away, frankly, you haven't got much legal protection if you buy privately. And if you do buy a car privately and it turns out to have problems with it, there is very little, if anything the Trading Standards Department could do to help you. Erm simply because your rights are so limited. [speaker001:] Could I just a [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] ask a question there? [speaker002:] Yes. Do. [speaker001:] difference between a trader and a private person. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] You know you read the, the columns and you buy a second hand car and you buy one this week and you read the column next week [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and you see the same telephone number, you know different model [speaker002:] Well it is [speaker001:] and so it goes on. [speaker002:] it is sim because of the big difference between the Sales Of Goods Act and buying privately, for that reason it is an offence for a trader erm to pretend not to be a trader. If I can put it that way. Now you'll find there are a lot of perfectly honest traders in the Evening Post and the honest ones have put T in brackets to indicate that they are a trader. Now an unscrupulous one will, as I've said, will pretend not be a trader. Now that is an offence and the Trading Standards keep a very, and, and of course the Evening Post themselves, keep a very close check on those phone numbers and it's much easier to do it nowadays with computers. We keep a close check on all those phone numbers to find out, are there any traders masquerading as private sellers. But that's an important point. But do remember, what we've talked about so far is the Sale Of Goods Act. [pen on paper]... But when buying a car, or anything from a trader, you are also protected by another law [cough] called the Trade Descriptions Act... which, and we've had that law since nineteen sixty eight. So we've had that law for a long time. What the Trade Descriptions Act says is it's a criminal offence for any trader to describe his goods in a false or misleading way. Okay? So if for example a dishonest car dealer said bargain, thirty thousand miles only, when really it had done ninety thousand miles then that would be a criminal offence under the Trade Descriptions Act. Because he's claiming the car is something which it clearly is not. Or if a jeweller said, you know, the rings in my window are made of gold when really they were not made of gold at all, then that would be a false trade description. On the streets of Nottingham, just before last Christmas, there was some street traders selling coats er which they described as sheepskin. We suspected they were not made of sheepskin at all er and we took some of them away and analyzed them to find out what exactly are they made of. And they turned out to be made of manmade fibres. So those gentlemen were not only infringing the Sale of Goods Act they were committing a criminal offence as well by infringing the Trade Descriptions Act so they ended up being prosecuted by Trading Standards. But I, I do feel the Trade Descriptions Act is a is a very important er piece of consumer protection designed of course to protect not only you and me as consumer but also designed to protect traders against unfair trading practices. [speaker001:] Excuse me. Can you tell me erm how that applies, say if you went and bought an i article of clothing from a market stall [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and there were no facilities for you try it on [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and when you got it home you found it didn't fit? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] What are your rights then? [speaker002:] If you buy from a market stall that counts as b that counts in exactly the same way as buying from any other er high street retailer. So in other words you're covered by the, well you're covered by both the Sale of Goods Act and the Trade Descriptions Act. So, but where I know it is a bit difficult with clothes because a market stall erm you don't, you don't normally get a chance to try the clothes on erm and you're never absolutely sure are these clothes, is this garment going to fit or not? So I, I always think it, feel it's a good idea to say to the stallholder, stallholder look, erm if I take this home and try it on and find it won't, doesn't fit can I bring it back? And if I can what are you going to offer me? And I think it's much better to get a clear understanding from the market stall at that stage rather than leave it till later. Okay? M I mean, let's be fair I mean most of the stallholders that I've found in Nottinghamshire erm are perfectly honest and reputable and many of them been there many years anyway. And of course if they're doing the job probably should be licensed by the local authority in any case. The real problem comes, not from market stalls, the real problem comes from these people who sell things out of suitcases. You know alleged to be gold or silver from suitcases. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now what should make you very suspicious is a soon as a policeman appears [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] they disappear like lightning. Now that, that should w alert you that, hallo, there's something very fishy here. So do be very wary please about buying anything from a street trader. Now let's just have a look at some problem areas. Er oh, before we do that let's just n just listen to a few more seconds of this tape. [tape recording] So I think you'll agree those two things are important as well. That if you change your mind remember you're not entitled to anything. And the other point made by the consumer adviser is try to have a good look at what you've chosen before you walk out of the shop. Now I know that's easier said than done. [LAUGHTER] You can't always do it [] but try to if you can. Because what the Sale of Goods Act goes on to say is that if the goods contain a fault which is so obvious you should have noticed the fault while you were in the shop, or the shop assistant pointed out the fault to you while you were in the shop, then I don't think you can really demand money back on that basis. So what it means is, you've got to have wits about you when you go shopping haven't you? I'm sure you've said this to your, your class before now. Use your wits. Use your commonsense. Use your gumption as they say in Yorkshire and above all pay attention to the way in which the goods are described to you. If the goods are described to you as seconds, shopsoiled, slightly imperfect, if any phrase like that is used I think your own commonsense should tell you there's something wrong with these goods and that presumably is the reason why they're reduced in price. [speaker001:] You've just answered the question. [speaker002:] I've just answered the question, okay. So the way in which goods are described's important. Now then erm time is an important part of shopping problems isn't it? People often say to me how much time have I got in which I can complain about faulty goods? Er and I wish I could give you, you know, a nice clear cut, definite answer but the Sale of Goods Act is rather vague on that point. And that I think, I feel is one of the loopholes in the Sale of Goods Act, because it doesn't lay down a definite time limit. All it says is if you do buy something from a shop and realize it's faulty, what you should do is take it back to the shop who sold it to you, together with your receipt if you've still got it or some other proof of purchase. Do that as soon as you can and within a reasonable time, says the Sale of Goods Act. Now the problem comes of course, well that's all very well but how do you define what is a reasonable time? Because I think, what is a reasonable time, is going to vary from one product to another. With shoes, I would say you'd normally know pretty quickly. Are the shoes faulty or not? Because if the shoes are faulty they're going to pretty quickly feel very uncomfortable. With shoes I think you're going to know pretty quickly. But if it's something mechanical, like a car, erm stereo equipment, erm a home computer something like that, a washing machine, it could be a long time before a mechanical fault became apparent. So what is a reasonable time to complain will, I think, vary from one product to another. So the only general advice I can give you is you do need to act promptly. If you find some if you realize you've bought something and it's faulty return it to the shop who sold it to you as soon as you can. The quicker you do that the better chances will be of getting your money back. But the longer you leave it the worse [LAUGHTER] your chances are going to get []. Because there must come a point somewhere in time where the shop will say well you've now had these goods so long they're no longer our responsibility. They're your responsibility. [cough] If we take the simple example of shoes. If, if you buy a p a new pair of shoes and realize they're faulty and you go back the next day and say I bought these shoes from you yesterday, I've still got my receipt, I believe the shoes are faulty, can I have my money back? I think you'll agree you're in a much stronger position that if you left it for months, and then went back. You know I think that weak does weaken your case considerably. So time is an important part of all this. Erm I've got a heading here, sales. A lot of people here think they have no rights when buying goods in a sale and it's quite mistaken to think that, you've still, even though you bought the goods in a sale you should still have your three statutory rights. In fact as far as the law is concerned it's really irrelevant that you bought the goods in a sale. All that matters as far as the law is concerned is, did you buy the goods from a shop? If you did, are the goods faulty? And were they faulty at the time that you the shop sold then to you? That's all that really matters as far as the law is concerned. Erm it is quite unfair, and illegal, for a shop to try to duck out of their responsibilities to you by pointing to a sign that says no refunds, no money refunded. No money refunded on sale goods. All those signs are illegal. And when you think about it they must be illegal, cos if a shop puts up a sign saying no money refunded they are, are trying to take away your statutory rights. You should always be entitled to a refund provided the goods are faulty. That's the point. So don't be put off by a sign that says no money refunded. They, they pardon? [speaker001:] What about the ones where they say well we'll repair it for you?... Or we'll put it right for you? [speaker002:] Well they can certainly offer you a repair, and of course if you wish to have a repair done that's entirely up to you. You can choose that if you wish. But if the goods are faulty what you're entitled to by law is money back. A cash refund in other words. So that you're, in other words you either, you're, by having the money back in your hand you are then restored to the position you were in before you bought the goods in the first place. All you're en all you can insist on, all you can demand is money back. Now if the shop want to offer you an alternative that's up to them and you can of course accept if you wish. Erm but all you can demand is money back. Okay? [speaker001:] S some shops put conditions on that, don't they? The they say things like no refunds given unless you produce a valid receipt. Now when I shop [speaker002:] Well [speaker001:] I keep the valid, a receipt [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and I've realized that. I'm asking what's the legal position in that? [speaker002:] I think, I think a shop, if you look at from the shop's point of view erm I think it is quite understandable and natural that they would, they would either like a receipt or at least they would like to see some evi [speaker001:] Proof of purchase. [speaker002:] some evidence [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] that you bought the goods from them, I think that's reasonable. [speaker001:] Yes I, I, I accept [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] that. I just [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] wondering what the legal position was on that. Are they legally entitled to say that in fact? [speaker002:] They are legally entitled to say either a receipt or some other evidence of purchase. [speaker001:] Right. Fine [speaker002:] But what I'm, what I'd like to stress to you is don't abandon hope erm sounds like a religious text actually. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Don't abandon hope just because you think oh dear, I can't find my receipt. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Because in practice there are alternative ways of proving purchase aren't there? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean if you've still got the original bag or the wrapper or, or the box or the price [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] tag. In practice a lot of shops will accept that. If you paid by cheque or credit card, again you would have some evidence that you spent that money. [speaker001:] We had a problem with the electrical place, Dixons erm over something rather different like that. We bought our daughter a, a cassette player one Christmas erm she opened it, threw the box away. Four days later it packed up. Dixons refused to exchange it because we didn't return it in the original packaging.... They did exchange it in the end but I had to be very insistent and it took three months. Mm. [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker001:] They said that I should return it in its box, with the receipt. I didn't have the box. I did have the [speaker002:] D [speaker001:] receipt. [speaker002:] You did have the receipt? [speaker001:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] Well I, I think that should have been sufficient myself. [speaker001:] Mm. It was in the end but it took [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] letters to Head Office to [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] do it. [speaker002:] Yes. And I think you'll agree, it is a difficult I mean I always stress this point about attitude, that a lot of problems that we get in our advice centres have been made worse because the customer has caused er you know argument or a scene [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] in the shop. Erm and it does make it very difficult then for Trading Standards then to pick up the pieces. And I know it's very easy for me to stand here and say you know try to keep calm and polite and reasonable. And that brings us back to your point, that there are times when you, you, you know you have, in order to get your statutory rights you've got to be pretty firm. And I feel that it, it is a difficult bala in practice it is difficult balance to achieve, to be polite, but to be firm at the same time... erm but and there are times when that has to be done. [speaker001:] . [speaker002:] Now while we're on this point about what exactly am I entitled to, erm we ought to say a word about credit notes cos there are a lot of shops who say well erm you know it is it isn't company policy to, it isn't our policy to offer refunds, but we're quite happy to offer you a credit note. A lot of customers accept that because they don't really know what their statutory rights are. But that brings us back to the point we were stressing a moment ago, if the goods are faulty you're entitled to money back, a cash refund. Er you need only accept a credit note if the problem is your own fault in some way. For example if you've changed your mind and decide you didn't want the goods or if you had damaged the goods and the shop offer you a credit note, I think you really have to accept that with good grace, cos it is really your fault. But if the goods are faulty you'd have the right to decline the credit note and ask for money back. [speaker001:] I if I could just come in there you mentioned this er if you changed your mind on goods, and you seemed to be defining the legal position. You've got you know some of the well known er shops like Marks and Spencers who will take things back and don't ask for a. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Is this just [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] a matter of customer? [speaker002:] With Marks and Spencers it is a matter of customer relations. They, they are going beyond what they have to do by law, and all credit to them for doing that. But the reason why they do that of course is they would like you to keep coming back and trading with them as a happier and satisfied customer. After all a reputable retailer doesn't want a lot of dissatisfied customers walking about. He'll want you, quite naturally, to keep on trading with him. But, and, but Marks and Spencers are really going, and there are plenty of other firms beside them who do it, but they are going beyond what they strictly have to do by law. Er but there are of course h n while we're on that point there are, I'm afraid, there are s people who take advantage of Marks and Spencers, erm because they know there's going to be no problem about having goods exchanged so what they do, they buy something from Marks and Spencers wear it on one evening for, for a party or special occasion [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] take it back the next day [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and it's th they get the money back [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now none of you would dream of doing anything like that. [speaker001:] Thank you for that. I'll [LAUGHTER] [in background throughout following text] Erm with, with sales [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] er very often in the shop it says no refund on, on sale goods [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] now i if that is strictly wrong why do the shops put the sale notices up? [speaker002:] Well as I've said signs like that are illegal. If you do see a sign like that please, or any words that mean the same thing, like no refunds, no money refunded, no money refunded on sale goods any of those phrases, will you please let Trad your nearest Trading Standards Office know. And we will get the sign taken down. They are, are allowed to put a sign that say no goods exchanged. Or it might say no sale goods exchanged. That's, that's okay, that's within the law. But no money refunded is not within the law. Alright? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] So do please let, bring it to the attention of Trading Standards. [speaker001:] Since, yes, since you can't exchange the goods then [speaker002:] No because you don't have a legal right to have the goods exchanged. [speaker001:] But you can take it back and say I want my money? [speaker002:] You can. Yes. Yeah. Erm... but there are a few what I call golden rules to avoid becoming one of these four hundred people every week [LAUGHTER] who come into our advice centre []. I would say golden rule number one is keep receipts. Very important. Unfortunately you can't insist on having a receipt because there's no law that says shops have got to give receipts. Perhaps there ought to be a law like that, but there isn't at the moment. So you can't demand one but you can always ask [speaker001:] way round that? [speaker002:] You can say can I have a receipt please? [speaker001:] There is one way round that. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] If they're VAT registered [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and you insist on a VAT receipt [speaker002:] VAT receipt. Yes. [speaker001:] they have got to give you one. [speaker002:] Okay? Er it is important as I've said about, we were talking a moment ago [speaker001:] Pardon? [speaker002:] about evidence of purchase. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] They have got to give a receipt [speaker002:] It is important because if you do buy something from a shop and realize there's something wrong with it, if you take it back the first thing the shop would say to you is can I see your receipt? Or they may say have you any proof of purchase? You don't need to hoard them for years, I know some people who hoard receipts for years. Every five years or so have a glorious clear out and throw all the old [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Y you don't need to get to quite to those lengths but er [] you certainly do need to keep them for a while. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What I mean by that is er try to have a good look at what you've chosen before you walk out the shop. Now that was the point I made a few moments ago. Legal documents, by that I mean be very wary of signing any kind of legal document in a shop. Let's take the example of a cooker. If you decide you want to a buy a new cooker and you go to the Gas Showrooms or the Electricity Showrooms and say I'd like to buy that cooker there and I would like to spread the payments over time, normally nowadays twenty four months or thirty six months. Nothing wrong with that it's a perfectly er respectable and reputable way of shopping, provided of course you know what you're doing and you d you don't get carried away. But, but a lot of the problems that come into our advice centre have been caused by people signing erm credit agreements and then realizing they can't afford the payments. Now to go back to the example of the cooker, if you do say that in the showrooms you will certainly be asked to sign a legal document. A credit agreement. But be very careful, because once you've signed it it becomes a legally binding document it will be very difficult to back out of it. You'll need a solicitor [LAUGHTER] to get out of it [] believe me. If you sign the document in your own home, as you would do with a doorstep salesman, er then the law does give you a chance to change your mind, although I hope for goodness sake you would all be very wary about signing any kind of legal document thrust under your nose from a doorstep salesman. But if you did that the law does give you what they call a cooling off period. What a lovely phrase. They give you a cooling off period of seven days in which you can change your mind, have second thoughts, and cancel the credit agreement. But you don't have that privilege, I'm afraid, if you sign it in Gas Showrooms, Electricity Showrooms or a shop so be very careful [speaker001:] Or Tenerife. [speaker002:] Or Tenerife. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So do be very careful about that. Right. Now [speaker001:] the case of checking, the case of checking the goods number two there. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] That's increasingly difficult these days with shrink-wrapping and [speaker002:] It is. I agree. Yes. And it always annoys me when I want to buy a shirt, that men's shirts are usually all sealed up in a package with a multitude of pins [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and it's very difficult to have a close look at the shirt without taking the whole thing to [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] pieces. [speaker001:] So you take it pieces. [speaker002:] But er [speaker001:] You can it to pieces I don't w I don't want the package [LAUGHTER] did that [speaker002:] What all I wanted. Yes. But if you can do that try and do that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now this leaflet which I'm going to give you in a moment er is called How To Put Things Right which i i is quite a good title for a leaflet like this. How to put things right. But perhaps a better title might be how to prevent things going wrong, on the argument you know that prevention is better than cure and rather than trying to put problems right which have already happened, it might be better to try to prevent them happening in the first place. And I do feel that by just following a few simple rules like that we can avoid a lot of the problems that come into our advice centre. Now I want to allow a bit more time for questions so I'll just end if I may with a funny story which, didn't happen to me, it happened to a colleague of mine, erm a young lady, who went to give er a talk like this to group of adults like yourselves and at the end of the meeting the treasurer went up to her and said do we owe you any fee or expenses? No thank you she said. No fee and no expenses. Ah, thank you very much, she said we're very appre very much appreciate the fact that you've given up your time to come and talk to our members you see we can't afford to pay for really good speakers [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] whereupon of course she off []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right. Well thank you very much for listening and if there are any more questions I'll be very pleased to. [speaker001:] Okay. Thanks John. Right. Finally Th the legal documents you know th going back to the cooker. Do you have the right to take the documents out to look at them a and read them? Because if you're buying something like [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] that in a shop it's extremely difficult to go through all the [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] bits and pieces and Mm mm. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] realize what you're doing. But if I remember correctly on one of the progr on television going back sort of two three months ago, one of the firms, and I think it was an electrical firm, was working a bit of a swift one erm they were getting people to sign a document which purported I think to be erm l l loaning money, hire agreement. But it wasn't actually, it were something else, and people were finding that their goods were repossessed because they couldn't keep up the payments. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Now can you take the documents? [speaker002:] Certainly and I, that's a good very point, a very good question. Erm let's face it it can be very tempting when the salesman thrusts the document under your nose, just sign here sir or just sign here madam, just a formality you understand, erm we'll fill in [LAUGHTER] we'll fill in the details later. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It's very, it's very tempting, especially if it's something that you badly want as happened to me recently when I'd set my heart on buying a new erm video recorder. And I thought to myself if all I've got to do is put my signature on this piece of paper and without actually paying any money down, any cash down at all, I can a actually walk out of the shop carrying the video recorder. And it is very tempting when you've set your heart on something like that. And v very tempting indeed. But you're, but you're quite right you, you certainly, you certainly have the right to say look, you know, rather than signing this now er I do need some time to think I mean let's face it there's a load of s If you turn it over on the back of the credit agree

[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I'm an old hand at it now. [LAUGHTER] Fire prevent ex fire prevention officer is gonna give us some real good tips. I've heard this film, seen this film quite a number of times and it really is good. I hope you didn't mind us starting but we decided that we'd Not at all. Excuse me. No. It's alright. we'd press on. So we've got a very good film. Aha. Er so over Right. to you then Jackie. Before we start is, is Can you use the O H P? Are you going to use that O H P? [Jack:] I am going to use it. [speaker001:] Oh right. Cos when we want [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] this afternoon [Jack:] Yeah I'm gonna use the O H P first and then [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [Jack:] use the films [speaker001:] Jolly good. [Jack:] Okay. Okay? [speaker001:] Come and sit over here? Yes. Right. [LAUGHTER] Now there's an offer. [LAUGHTER] Right. [Jack:] I understand everybody enjoyed the physical jerks this morning. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [background to following] Oh yeah. They were nice. Was it on Radio Nottingham? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Feel the. [Jack:] Keeps you fit. Remarkable young lady isn't she? Yes. Right. Well good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. My name's Jack. I've just retired from the Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue Service after just over thirty years service having reached, reached the er full time that I matured, that's thirty years service and attaining the ripe old age of fifty five. Okay? So er they've put me out to grass so to speak. And I myself, as er your course leader has indicated, I was on a course here myself some four weeks ago listening to the same subject, doing the physical exercises etcetera etcetera and listening and trying to take in, I won't say I did, trying to take in all the different aspects that will affect us in our er retirement years. Now when we get round to this subject this afternoon of fire a lot of people think that fire is a modern invention. Okay? It's something to do with the new computer age of technology and space invaders and everything else. Well we all know from our own history books that fire has been with us for a long long time hasn't it? Right from the days of the early caveman when he used fire not only for cooking but he also used it as means of lighting and keeping his family warm er during the winter months. Okay? But just let's have a look at some of the things that have caused fires or cause us to bring about legislation in fire. And one of the things that we learn very early in history is... the Great Fire of London. Can you all see that? Great Fire of London started second of September in sixteen sixty six started in the early hours at a baker's house in Pudding Lane. It burned for three days. It destroyed four hundred and thirty six acres of buildings, thirteen thousand two hundred houses, eighty seven parish churches, numerous other public buildings. Remarkably only six persons died. But two hundred thousand were made homeless and the estimated loss was ten million seven and thirty thousand pounds in sixteen sixty six. Imagine what the cost would have been [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] today [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] if that same scenario happened. I mean we've only got to have a look at the recent events in London went on about the insurances over the bombings over the weekend haven't we? To find out what the er costs are going to be. And this then created the first institute fire insurance and your rebuilding acts. Okay? And not to go into too much depth, basically if I can find the switch. [speaker001:] That's it. [Jack:] Basically what happened from that, the crown at the time then decided to widen the streets and broaden the pavements. And also bought out the insurance company fire brigades where, when you go round a lot of the older buildings in our towns and cities today and even villages, you will find an insurance plaque or an insurance mark on the side of the house or the building concerned. And this was the old insurance plaque and if your house caught fire then the insurance fire brigade would come and put out your fire for you. Okay? But not only have we had the Great Fire of London we've had other disasters in the country apart from disasters of the Great War and the er Second World War. We had the Bradford Football disaster and we had other disasters in nightclubs, the Fairfield Night Nursing Home in in Nottingham [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] not far from us. All brought about some legislation. And let's face it ladies and gentlemen, legislation has governed us basically all our working lives hasn't it? Okay? The Education Act for example. The Fire Precautions Act. The Fire Safety and Safety of Sports Grounds Act. The Factories Act. The Licensing Act. The Gaming Act. So if you go to your local pub at night for a er an evening social and you have a drink no doubt you'll look round your public house and you'll see all sorts of pieces of fire equipment. Fire alarm systems, fire extinguishers, emergency lighting all that sort of thing. And this has been brought about to enhance your safety, not only when you're at your place of work, but when you're out and enjoying your social evening either at a theatre, a pub, a club or the cinema or wherever you may be. And of course we come home don't we? And as you ladies and gentlemen now are thinking of retiring as I have done the least thing you want to be bothered about is rules and regulations. And this is sometimes where we slip up because fire is still prevailing with us even when we're in home. Okay? A fire can start in the home and it can start very very easily. What do you think are the common causes of fire in the home situation?... [speaker001:] Chip pans. [Jack:] Chip pans. [speaker001:] Electrical Electrical Children playing with matches. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Electric blankets. [Jack:] Okay. Well just let's have a look at a few shall we? [speaker001:] [whistling] [Jack:] From this side, too far. Right. The careless use of matches, lighters and pipes.... Okay? So let's look at the first one. Excuse me I've got a rather heavy cold. Matches and pipes, okay? Some of us here this afternoon may be grandparents in our right. Okay? And school holidays and you've got your grandchildren or grandchild come to stay with you and granddad has his favourite chair by the side of the fire. He has his box of matches or his lighter and he likes his pipe. And he likes it in a certain place and nobody must touch it. And, but of course young Johnny comes along to spend the day with his grandparents and he likes to ape granddad. He likes to sit in granddad's chair and pretend that he's smoking granddad's pipe. Okay? So if you do have grandchildren come to stay with you please make sure that you put your matches or you cigarettes, your cigars and your lighters way out of reach of the young children concerned. I know it's commonsense but unfortunately a lot of people still tend to leave these er objects lying about in easy reach of the young child, okay? One of your colleagues mentioned the careless use of cookers and chip pans. too. What happens? You put the chip pan on. The telephone rings, you get distracted. Okay? And you're on the phone for ages and ages talking about A B and C, and all a sudden you think [sniff] I can smell something burning. And low and behold you can't even get back into the kitchen because the kitchen is full of deadly fumes from the burning fat or er fat or oil within the chip pan. Okay? Drying, the airing of clothes is another one. You get your fire going. It's rather a damp day outside you want to finish airing your clothes off, so what to do? You stick them round on the old er airer in front of the open fire. It doesn't matter whether it's a solid fuel fire or a coal effect er g gas fire or whether it's an electric fire. If that er clothing becomes heated and it gets to the right temperature it will burst into the flames, likewise if it's not balanced properly and you go out the door the living room or the lounge into the kitchen or some other part of your home the draft by closing the door can knock the airer over, unbalance it and of course er set fire to the clothing. Unguarded open fires. Again the problem there is that you get the hot coals, if it's a solid fuel fire, er dropping off onto the hearth setting fire to the hearth rug. Children playing with matches and lighters a again we've already covered this in object number one, but again it's a reminder. Make sure that if you have children in the home that matches and lighters are placed well out of, place them out of reach. Old faulty electrical appliances. Again your electrical appliances do want servicing on a regular basis. How many of you use an electrical blanket?... Well quite a few of you. What do you do at the end of the winter time and er spring arrives and it's too warm for the electric blanket. What do you do? Do you fold it in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions? Or do you just screw it up, stuff it in the box up in the attic or out of way, out of sight until next September October November time when you want to fetch it out again?... [speaker001:] [background to following] Leave it on the bed. [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Leave it where it was. [Jack:] Leave it where it was. [speaker001:] Yes. [Jack:] On the bed. [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] Okay, providing it's not used. Okay. But very often people will just get hold of the er blanket, they'll screw it up okay? Stick it away out the way until next winter and as we all know inside the electric blanket we have [banging] little... and there's your blanket. We have little electric fibres, elements running through similar to an electric fire and if you crumple it up, and don't take care of it properly, what happens is you will snap one of the fine filaments. And what happens then, the electric current, as we know, flows backwards and forwards and it gets to this bit here and there's a break, so what does it do? The spark tries to jump the gap doesn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Jack:] Okay? It tries to jump the gap and in doing so sets fire to y the surrounding material that the blanket is made of and that's where you start to get problems on your fire blankets. [speaker001:] Excuse me? [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Y you mentioned folding. Is there a, is there a proper way to fold cos I haven't [Jack:] Yeah nor [speaker001:] seen it. [Jack:] Yeah. Normally normally with your folder there should be some m manufacturer's instructions come. [speaker001:] No, there wasn't. [Jack:] Except, there wasn't? Well I, I would suggest that if you have a look and see how the lay of the er [speaker001:] Wiring. [Jack:] wires or the elements run and then fold it so it can avoid kinking those. So you fold in actual fact between the layers of the material and you don't try to bend the [speaker001:] The wires. [Jack:] the the element. Try to fold within the layers of the material so that you don't, and, and you keep your elements in a straight line then. Okay? But if you've got any doubts, if you're in any doubts at all go to your local E board or some electrical supplier, a reputable electrical supplier, and they will tell you how to do it properly. Okay?... Overloaded and wrongly fused plugs. Okay? Again another source of danger within the home because what happens or, what's the, what's the object of a fuse in a plug? [speaker001:] [whispering] Safety []. [Jack:] Safety. Right. But very often we will overlook safety because we stick any old fuse in we think it works, okay? But if something untoward happens to that ele piece of electrical equipment, okay? The electrical equipment overheats and then fuse as yo we all know should blow... to cut off the supply of electrical equipment to that piece of apparatus. But sometimes if we've got the wrong fuse in it won't blow and it will continue to feed the electric current through to the heater or whatever piece of electrical apparatus it is, until such times as we have a fire situation. If we don't get a fire situation the person who is operating the piece of electric equipment is quite likely to get an electrical shock. [speaker001:] How do you know which fuse to put? [Jack:] How do you know which fuse? Right. Quite simply normally when you buy a piece of electrical apparatus, doesn't matter what it is, normally it will tell you what fuse should be put into the er appliance itself, into the plug. [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] But you can, next time to go to pay your electricity bill, you can pick up this leaflet called Plugs and Fuses, Electricity and You. Okay? And that even tells you how to wire a plug correctly. It's a [speaker001:] do that. [Jack:] good descriptive booklet and it tells you on the back, in actual fact I've got some handouts here which you can pick up when we've finished the talk, okay? There should be sufficient to go round. And it tells you the normal plug rating for a particular appliance. Like a vacuum cleaner should be five amp, a deep fat fryer should be thirteen amp and various [speaker001:] [cough] [Jack:] er little pieces of information on plugs and fuses. Okay? So [speaker001:] Thank you. [Jack:] please pick one of those up before you leave this afternoon. [speaker001:] Has some new legislation just come out about all that. That any new electrical goods supplied after a certain date are now supposed to have the fu the, the plug the fuse plug actually er as it were fused I don't mean that sort of fuse, I mean [Jack:] No. I know what you mean, yes, yes [speaker001:] used on to the wire so that you can't take it off. [Jack:] yes. [speaker001:] I've got a feeling it is and I know if you Yeah. [Jack:] I believe that has but [speaker001:] now the plug's [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] part of it. [Jack:] Yeah. I, I believe that has but the only way I would ask you to ensure this [speaker001:] Oh Yeah. [Jack:] if you're thinking is if you go to you your Electricity Board [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] or ring up your local Trading Standards Officer [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] there's one based at County Hall and if you're from the Nottingham Arnold area there's one based on Front Street at Arnold. But please get in touch with a, a qualified electrician [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] and they will tell you whether or not [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] what the latest information is. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] Okay? [speaker001:] . Yeah. I think it has come in but I think they're still Still selling old stuff. That's right. Yeah. [Jack:] They will still sell the old [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] They will still sell the old cos it is a [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah [Jack:] it's market isn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] I it's a market thing you know [speaker001:] And ninety percent of the plugs sold loose have got thirteen amp Mm. Oh yeah. They have. fuses. Yeah. Yeah. And ninety percent of the things they're attached to still got thirteen amp fuses. I bet they'll have. [Jack:] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Whether they're table lamp, irons or cookers [Jack:] This is a this is a question we very often get asked, why do they sell a thirteen amp fuse with a thirteen amp plug if it only wants a five amp in? As I say it's one of these er competitive market things, but if you go into an electrical shop and you buy a piece of electrical equipment, or if you want er a plug for it, a piece of electrical equipment because you found out that the plug on the electrical equipment at home is defective, it's got cracked porcelain or something like, then please have a word with the person who is selling you the plug and say look, this plug is gonna be fitted on X appliance. What type of fuse do I want in it? Would you please ensure that the plug is correctly fitted with the right fuse? And I've, nine times out of ten a good, local, electrical retailer will do it there and then. May cost you just the, the cost of replacing the fuse or they might say there you are my dear, okay, no extra charge. Okay? But please if you're in any doubt have a word with your electrical contractor, unless you are a competent person yourself and capable of doing it yourself and working out the, the ampage yourself. Okay? [speaker001:] Incidentally electric blankets are only three amp. [Jack:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Electric blankets should only be Three amp. three amp [Jack:] Three amp. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. Just while we're on that subject. Anything on multi plugs? You know the sort of the erm thing you can plug in [Jack:] This sort of thing like this?... That type of thing? [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That as compared with the one you can put in that you know one at the top one at the side and. [Jack:] Yeah. Right. Okay. Again, this I haven't got an example to show you but I have seen one of these that's caught fire and the only reason it's caught fire is because this total piece of equipment is only capable of taking a maximum of thirteen amps. Okay? So if you've got a three amp fuse another three amp fuse and a, a three amp fuse in and another one in it... you've got nine amps haven't you? [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] Okay? So you only want another small piece of electrical apparatus in there. So if you was to stick your washing machine in there for example. Okay? Or an electric fire then you would be asking for trouble because you'd be trying to draw out [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] more electricity out of the system then it's designed to give you. It's like trying to draw more money out of the bank and you've got no more cash left in reserve, okay? So if you are using these, I've got one of these at home in my lounge and the only thing that I run from it is my television set and the video recorder. That's all. The two other sockets remain empty. And then I know full well that I'm well within the guidelines of not going over the thirteen amp that this is designed to operate at maximum efficiency and safety. Okay? A lot of people think because you've got four sockets you can bang four pieces of apparatus. Well you can't. You can provided you keep under the thirteen amp rating but if you go over the thirteen amp rating then you are asking for trouble. Okay? And the same applies to your... multiple socket adaptor where you've just got one power point. You stick it in and you've got everything adjoined to it. You know you've got the electric fire, you've got the telly and everything else to it. Again if you go over the thirteen amp you're trying to draw out more elec electricity and you're causing overheating. Okay? And that's where you start to get your problems irrespective of whether your appliances are correctly fused you must make sure they are correctly fused but you must not exceed the thirteen amp otherwise you've had it. You will be asking yourself for trouble. [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] Okay? [speaker001:] Am I not right in thinking that the batons themselves are fused, therefore they are a safety device, therefore t the fuse in the baton will go if you do exceed the thirteen? [Jack:] Yes. It will go and it should go but again if you've not got the correct fuse in it won't go. You must always ensure that you have the correct fuse in. Okay? But for safety's sake ladies and gentlemen please do not exceed the thirteen amps output on your piece of apparatus.... Probably if you're having a new home built or something like that you may not have to recourse to those because while you're having, you're having your home built you can say to the electrician, alright I want X number of power points here. I want X number of power points there and I want X number of power points there. But if you're like me moving to a, a house that's been established for some years you'll probably find there's only a minimum of power points because let's face it over the years the use of electrical apparatus have become more and more hasn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] You know what with microwaves and electric toasters and things like that you know. And of course in the old days they just weren't available because they weren't on the market. Half of them hadn't even been thought of, especially microwaves anyway. I know electric toasters do go back even beyond my years but er okay? Portable heaters close to furniture.... Again we've got the situation where you've got radiated heat. Okay? What happens on a cold winter's evening you stand in front of the fire. Okay? You're warming yourself aren't you? It's chilly out there tonight Mabel isn't it? You know. What happens? What can you feel? You can feel the heat from the fire can't you? Doesn't matter whether it's a solid fuel fire, gas fire or electric and this is what we call radiated heat. And if you were silly enough to stand there long enough [sniff] you'd soon, your skirt, your trousers you'd soon start smelling a little bit. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] You know? And away you'd go. So again it's the same with putting portable heaters close to the furniture. Let's face it we all like comfort on a winter's evening when we're watching the, our favourite programmes on the television and we shove our chairs right up to the fire to get nice and snug. But if we ever leave the room at all, always pull the chair back.... Okay? A reasonable distance, okay? To make sure that er the furniture is not too close. Plugs left switched on. Okay? Again, very often in this modern days and age, we have to leave certain electrical appliances switched on all the time don't we? The fridge-freezer otherwise you'd get up every morning and you'd have a right mess in your cupboard wouldn't you? In, in your er kitchen. So we have to make sure that again the plugs are in good working order. There's no cracks that would allow er leaks of electricity through. Okay? No cracks in the porcelain. The fuse again is correct and not only the fuse but the wiring is in good working order. And this happens with electric irons as well, and another thing make sure your electric iron cable is in good working order. How long is it since you really examined your electric iron when you've used it? On the cable? Okay? What happens to it? [speaker001:] It frays. [Jack:] It frays. Because it's doing this thing all the time isn't it? You know, while you're away ironing you're doing this all the time. [repetitive banging] Up and down the old ironing board. Okay. And eventually after a period of time that ins outer insulation will wear down, it will fray and it will break and it will expose the live and the neutral wires until, unfortunately sometimes, it will be a little bit too late. And you will, if you don't end up with a house fire you may end up with nasty burns or even electric shock. So do periodically, either yourself or get your hubby, to have a look and make sure that all your cabling is in good working order, okay? Likewise you should never burrow or bury cabling under the carpet because the same thing happens. You lay the Axminster carpet on top of the cable, trampling all over it, over a number of years and again the old thing happens, it wears down the outer protective cabling, it breaks down the insulation and then you get a fire situation burning away, smouldering away underneath your carpet because while ever your er electrical appliance is switched on heat is being generated. There's even heat coming from this lamp now. Okay? Heat is being generated all the time and that's the problem. Paraffin heaters and L P G heaters, again are another source of danger, especially L P G heaters. And when you look at L P G, while it's in its canister, okay, it's a liquid but when it meets normal atmospheric temperature and pressure it converts to a gas. Okay? You can't see it, sometimes the agents will put a stenching er material in it that you can [sniff] you can smell it, mm, I can smell gas... you know and it's this stenching thing that you can smell, but very rarely can you see it. Again if you re rely on L P G heaters as soon as you've got an emp er a, a, a cylinder empty, get it out the way back to your supplier to make sure that you only have it serviced on a one to one basis so you get a one for one swap. Okay? How many of you ladies and gentlemen are Do It Yourself enthusiasts?... Right. What about glues and solvents? That we use in the home? Okay? A lot of the glues and solvents that we use in the home, especially if you're putting lino tiles down or, or carpet tiles, down contain substances that are highly flammable. Okay? The material itself is highly flammable and it's heavier than air which means, in chemical, means it drops down to ground level. Okay? It doesn't float in the air it drops down to ground level and some years ago, when I was based in Ashfield, I had an experience of this. We were called to an explosion and house fire in Sutton-in-Ashfield and I responded as Officer in Charge and I pulled up outside, we dealt with the fire and then we began the investigation to find out what had happened. And the story goes, to cut it quite short, two workmen were in this person's house laying carpet tiles in the lounge and they were using this substance that was heavier than air and it was also highly flammable. And of course with it being heavier than air it does tell you it can give a nasty headache, cause drowsiness, etcetera etcetera. So after they'd been using this stuff with no windows open or anything, one of the workmen began to feel a little bit groggy so he said to his mate and open the back door Charlie, will you, I'm feeling a bit groggy. Okay? So what happened was [paper rustling]... quick sketch that's the kitchen, that's the cooker. Okay? Lounge window... that's the lounge where the men were working. Okay? So his, his colleague went and opened the door to the kitchen from the lounge and opened the back door. The inrush of fresh air came in through the room, circulated, inter mixed with the vapour laden air in the lounge. Okay? And of course being on the air current it went on its way back and what was waiting for it here? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] The pilot light on the gas cooker. [speaker001:] [gasp] [Jack:] And as soon as it hit it, vrroom! It went. Fortunately the building suffered more injury than what the men did, thankfully, but obviously of course the building by insurance it would still, it was still a nasty shock for the owner occupier of the house. It cracked the wall down that side and it took out that window put a big crack in there and also in the ceiling. Okay? So if you are ever using solvents, okay, in your home, please adhere to the manufacturer's instructions. Okay? [speaker001:] this has happened in my house with a workman. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And he, he set kitchen on fire. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] He lost his eyebrows and most of his hair... and the whole house was [Jack:] Yeah. Okay?. [speaker001:] workmen don't guarantee that he is doing it according to the thing because [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] the central heating could cut in [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] or the gas boiler [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] cut in. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And did exactly [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] the same sort of thing. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We didn't have an explosion but we did have a big fire. [Jack:] Yeah. Well this, this does an explosion actually rather than a [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] little fire but there's enough damage from the explosion to d do the job. But as the gentlemen there he's got firsthand experience. Yeah? [speaker001:] Erm paint is now solvent based or s I know it's gonna be phased out but basically it's solvent based. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] A are they flammable? [Jack:] They're not as flammable as, as such. They're, when you're talking about the normal household gloss, yes it is flammable but it's not a, nowhere near as flammable as your cellulose thinners that you spray your car with and things like that, your touch up sprays, because it doesn't contain the amount of petroleum adhesive er additive I should say, in the er in its mixture as does er [speaker001:] A and are they heavier than air ones? Or, or or are [Jack:] They are heavier than air and again if you follow the manufacturer's instructions, if it says when using this paint allow adequate ventilation [speaker001:] Yes. [Jack:] then you're okay. You see I mean I had an uncle, he's passed on now, and he was an avid pipe-smoker. Okay? And I've seen him, he's made me cringe, he used to have a cigar cigarette lighter and he used to fill it with this L P G stuff. And I've seen him standing ope in front of the open fire with his back to the fire going like that and you can see the heat shimmer stuff coming off and you know it's the L P G. I used to say Uncle I don't lie, you know you're do oh I've been doing it for years you all that [LAUGHTER] sort of thing you know []. You couldn't get him to alter his ways. But it's just one of those things. If you're using these substances do please be careful but not only about Do It Yourself er er enthusiasts. What about the normal everyday consumer goods we buy? Hair lacquer? Underarm deodorant to make us smell nice when we're going out to a party? What does it say on the canister? [speaker001:] Pressurized. Keep away from heat. [Jack:] Pressurized, keep away from any source, direct sunlight. Because, again, the canisters are pressurized. The substance whether it be hairspray or whatever it is, is put in under pressure. Okay? And the seams of the canister are only designed to withstand a certain amount of pressure. Once that pressure is exceeded, bang! It will go just like a bomb. And that's why we strongly recommend, and the environmental health people strongly recommend, you never shove them in the garden refuse. When you're doing your annual burn out when you're burning all the weeds and you might think oh I'll get rid of this. And everything used to go on the old garden bonfires didn't it, in the past? Okay? And very often people stick one of these canisters in the er in the old garden bonfire, alright? And of course when it got heated it used to blow and it used to blow all the burning debris all over. Well if your next door neighbour's got the window open the burning debris lands on her bed or his bed and away you've got a fire situation, okay? Because these canisters when they do blow they can spread debris quite some considerable distances. Okay? So whenever you're er tt using er these type of things do be careful. I mean if I was to s stand here and tell you that self-raising flour is classed as an X one, as a class one explosive dust your wife would never make any, an apple pie again in her life. But I'm not gonna tell you that. Okay? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] But it is and that's why in flour mills they have blast suppression built in and everything else. But the reason being that er flour and stuff is a class one dust is because if you imagine a granule of flour. It's surrounded by a large volume of air isn't it? And the flame propagation is so rapid it's consumed that it just blows. Okay? So that's why, again, you have to be careful with most of our domestic er things that we have er in our homes. Again poor servicing of electric appliances. If you have electrical appliances I know it's gonna cost you a few pence, or probably even a few pounds these days, do make sure that your electrical appliances are serviced properly and correctly. Then you should be reasonably safe. [speaker001:] Gas central heating boilers, if the ignition doesn't ignite fast enough you get a build up and that can go with an interesting bang. [Jack:] Yes it can. Yes it can. So everything we've got in our home, the old gas central heating and that's why very often there's a reminder in your annual winter's er bill that you get. The one that's the biggest one of the year they will say when's the last time you had your er gas boiler serviced? Is it ready for doing? Would you like to take effectively a three star, four star, one star er servicing? Okay? I think it's well wor er well worth your while taking er note of these things. Okay? Let's have a look on a little bit then. Danger from fire in the home, the facts. Approximately there are a least sixty thousand fires a year. Approximately seven hundred deaths a year. Seven thousand injuries and many of these could be avoided if we will only take reasonable and proper precautions that we should do. Take advice, if you've got any doubt each old time fire station ha in this county, has a fire safety division attached to it and there are usually two officers on duty, okay? Unless they're out carrying out their inspections but at least the administrator's there, she will help all she possibly can in the absence of the fire safety officer. If you've got any doubts get in touch with your local fire safety officer and he will come along and er waylay any problems that you may have and he will indeed er give you the best of advice that's available. Okay? [speaker001:] Are they facts for Nottinghamshire? [Jack:] Those are for Nottinghamshire, yeah. Yeah. If you're from Derbyshire or Leicestershire then in your local telephone directory er do you mean the fire or these numbers? [speaker001:] Those numbers. [Jack:] No these numbers are basically nationally at the moment. But unfortunately it's on the increase [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] and as we are all aware I, I feel sure for there being in the you've been, in that it is unlawful to leave a child alone in the house under the age of twelve years. Cos if anything happens to that child especially in a fire situation you are liable to criminal er tt etcetera. Ah in fact there's a case in London where they've just recently charged a mother, where the firemen were called to a house fire over the weekend and erm during the, putting the fire out they discovered a child's body er i on the settee. Er apparently she was a four year old er they searched for the mother, they found the mother and I understand now that the mother's been charged with murder. So whether she'd committed the act before and er tried to cover it up I don't know, cos obviously it's subject to sub judice at the moment until they've got the, everything in the outcome. But that's the latest thing I've heard of on the one anyway. [speaker001:] Yeah.... [Jack:] How can we protect our homes then? Okay. We've gone along to lengths of making sure that all our electrical appliances are in good working order. We switch everything off at night that's reasonable to switch off, obviously we're leaving the fridge and freezer on and the electric clock working. Okay. We close all the doors at night. What else can do to protect our homes?... What should we be thinking of doing? [speaker001:] Smoke alarms. [Jack:] Smoke alarm. How many of you got smoke alarms?... Quite a few of you. Good. Okay? And we should also have a fire escape plan. Okay? Just to s talk a little bit on the smoke alarms and then we'll go into the video cos I I'm mindful of the time. Okay? Heat, two types of smoke detector you get in the home, heat and smoke. Okay?... Heat reacting [speaker001:] [sneeze] [Jack:] increase in temperatures and smoke reacts to smoke and fumes. Okay? Domestic smoke alarms are basically two types. The ionization type and in this in the centre of the core of the er detector is er a small chamber and any particle or substance getting in that chamber is ionized by a small radioactive source. Okay? But don't worry about the radioactive source it's not gonna do you any harm whatsoever. You're not going to suddenly turn green and walk about like that you know. Okay? It ionizes, causes the current to be completed and then that sets off the alarm. Okay?... And the optical type it contains this photoelectric cell which triggers alarm when the beam is disturbed by smoke particles. So very often you'll see it on these erm infra red things in er burglar alarm systems. Where you can see a little red light, neon, going in one corner and a reflecting light in the opposite corner. And anything that goes in between those disturbs the beam and it causes an electric current to sound the alarm and it's the same thing that happens with the er detectors. Okay? [speaker001:] [cough] [Jack:] What's the reaction factor? Well let's, just let's have a little look. Okay? The ionaz ionization detector, often a little bit quicker to react to a hot blazing type of fire such as your chip pan. Okay? The optical detector ideal to react to smouldering type of fire,a example, a cigarette fallen down the side of the er sofa. Some detectors incorporate the two types in a single unit to give you a better performance. Okay? But they are both apt in th they'll do and they'll both do the job. So don't start getting yourself worried well, have I got an ionization or have I got an op an optical one. The only thing you have to bear in mind is that if you have a smoke detector that conforms to the British Standard kite-mark, British Standard five four five part one, that'll be quite sufficient. But what should we do to ensure that our smoke detector is working properly? [speaker001:] Test it. Test it. [Jack:] Yeah. Test it on a weekly basis. Okay? But what also should be do? [speaker001:] Cook fish. [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Cook fish. Yes. Yes. Or grill them. [speaker001:] that goes off when we [Jack:] Yes. [speaker001:] cook fish. Always. Yeah [Jack:] Yeah. Will do. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mine always goes off whenever I'm grilling anything at all. Yeah. Mm. [Jack:] Yeah. Yes. You will find they are very very susceptible and that's the object of the exercise. That's why they are so keen. And that's why in, in buildings, industrial and commercial buildings where we put heat and smoke detectors in for the protection of life and that's why you put it in your homes. Erm it is because they are so acute, the least little whiff and they're away. Okay? You must also remember, ladies and gentlemen, to change the battery at least once a year. Or especially when you start getting the low pip pip pip about every thirty seconds. Okay? [speaker001:] Or be aware that the pips could happen when Is it on, on you're on holiday. [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Or be aware that the pips in our case happened when we were on holiday. [Jack:] Yes. Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] It cold doesn't it? Can trigger them off. This Mm. has happened to us several times. been away at [Jack:] Yeah. Sometimes can get a cold [speaker001:] winter, in the winter. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and we've come back or in fact [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] our son had been in to check the house [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and the thing was going so [cough] taken the battery out. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And he thought the battery you know was running down but in fact it wasn't [Jack:] Mm. [speaker001:] it, it's the cold. [Jack:] Yeah. Sometimes [speaker001:] But [Jack:] you can get those a little bit offset with temperature. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] That will affect them b [speaker001:] This happens every time doesn't it? [Jack:] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you will get a er a little bit offset with temperature but it's only a minute thing. I'd rather have that than nothing at [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] all. [speaker001:] Yeah. It's cold that's affecting the battery. [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And if it and if, if instead of putting the ordinary zinc and, and carbon battery in you put a NiCad battery in, it'll stop it doing that. [Jack:] Okay? So [speaker001:] Right. [Jack:] try that. Expert advice there. Okay? Right. The other thing is ladies and gentlemen, I don't know whether you know or not, but it is now, if you're having a new home built, fresh build as we call it, okay? But it's now, in order to comply with the building regulations nineteen ninety two, it is mandatory for you to have an electrically operated smoke detection system in your home. So if you are thinking, cos you are now finishing work and you're going to retire somewhere nice. Okay? In this country anyway at least, in the U K and you're having a new dream cottage built, okay, to your needs and satisfaction, okay? Please remember [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] that in order to conform to the current building regulations it is now mandatory to have a proper er electrically mains operated smoke alarm system installed in the home. Otherwise the tt building will have deemed to not comply to B one of the building regulations which I don't want to go into too much detail but basically what it is that with effect from nineteen ninety one the smoke alarm smoke detector bill came into er operation and it was brought in into the nineteen ninety two building regulations when they were amended from the nineteen eighty five regulations that states now [reading] any new build homes shall have and be fitted with a mains operated, with battery backup, smoke detection system []. And in fact in some parts of the country there have been experiments tested with having sprinkler system fitted into the home. [speaker001:] How long do [Jack:] Okay? [speaker001:] the batteries last if the mains are off while you're away? [Jack:] About er twenty four to thirty six hours. [speaker001:] Because part of the condition of your insurance policy in some cases, if you're away more than X number of days, the mains should be switched off. [Jack:] Yeah. Yeah. That's something obviously [speaker001:] You go abroad for [Jack:] Yeah You'd [speaker001:] a month. [Jack:] you'd take with your insurance company to make sure you were still covered if anything untoward happened while, you know. But er normally your battery on a mains system will last forty eight t thirty six to forty eight hours.... [speaker001:] That's thirty six to [Jack:] Yeah. [speaker001:] forty eight hours worth of noise? [Jack:] No. It's thirty six to forty eight hours of standby [speaker001:] Cover. [Jack:] cover. So if your mains goes off through an electrical storm or something like that or your power is cut off because the E the M E B is digging the road up down and they say that your electric will be off for the next [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] X number of hours then your battery will take over and it will operate the fire al your domestic system for a period of thirty six to forty eight hours. [speaker001:] What about the batteries in a battery operated one then? How long do they last? [Jack:] Well in the normal battery operated one they [speaker001:] For years. [Jack:] they're not affected at all. They wi they will last at least twelve months. [speaker001:] Ah. Yeah. It does seem self-defeating if one authority requires you to have a mains operated system and another authority says turn off electricity if you're going away. And the gas and the water. [Jack:] Well Yeah. Well yes. What it is le let's just sort of get things, as I say in a new build situation if you were having a new house built [speaker001:] [cough] [Jack:] the building authority anywhere in the U K, even in Scotland and Northern Ireland, will require you to have a built in smoke detector system, mains with battery. Obviously [speaker001:] [cough] [Jack:] once a building has been built and you've got that in it's under you then to maintain it. Okay? If you are going away on holiday like I go away on holiday and probably some your colleagues and you're going abroad for two three weeks, it makes commonsense to try and protect your home as soon as you possibly, as much as you can by isolating the risk. So the first thing you do is turn off your gas. You turn off your water and you turn off your electric. Because there's nobody going to, unless you've got somebody watching your house, unless you get a, an enforced entry or, or unlawful entry into your home, nothing's gonna happen because you know alright you've left, you've your fridge and freezer switched on. Okay? So you've got to have your mains for your fridge-freezer haven't you? Basically? [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] So you're gonna leave your, your mains on anyway for fridge-freezer. So there's no great problem really. Providing you're, you are correctly fused and your wires are okay then no problem. I I can't see er you're gonna have any particular problem with your insurance company cos you've got to leave your fridge-freezer switched on haven't you? [speaker001:] Mm. [Jack:] Otherwise when you come back from a month in Malaya or Singapore or wherever you've been you know or Matlock [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] whichever takes your fancy, you're gonna have a right mess in your kitchen aren't you?... [speaker001:] Yeah. [Jack:] So if I were you I would just have a word with your insurance company and make sure that everything's okay but you're obviously, they must know that you've got to leave your er fridge-freezer switched on, so you've got to have your mains electrics on.... Okay? Are you alright on that? Or have you got a [speaker001:] I wouldn't trust anything this government does so [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Well it's not, it's not the government that's doing it anyway. [speaker001:] It's the Yeah. [Jack:] Okay? Any questions ladies and gentlemen? Before we se now hopefully it should bring us to about four o'clock. Now this video although it's American based, ignore that fact that they've got tower block apartments, and that'll mean we've got high-rise buildings i in the city of Nottingham and places like that. Okay? But try and look at the fundamental basis of what they're trying to put over to you on the video, okay? That's the main thing and then if you've got any questions afterwards hopefully we'll still have time to go through a few questions. Okay?... [break in recording] It is essential that we plan to get out alive, ladies and gentlemen. Okay? So if you have a if you live in er er a two-storey house, okay? Make sure that all r eve even if you're in a bungalow, make sure that all your doors are closed at night, okay? Get everybody, preferably, into the front of the house in the bedroom upstairs, get some clothing or some packing, bedding at the base of the door to stop the smoke filtering through the bottom of the door Okay? Go to the window shout and make it, make your plight known to your neighbours because normally there's somebody passing, policeman on his beat or somebody who'll make your plight known. Okay? If it becomes necessary the

[speaker001:] Hello! I'm David Johnston and you can give me a call right now on. [music] [David:] Good Morning. You're listening to Dial David Johnston on Max A M. At long last, perhaps, the next tale of Edinburgh's Premiere League football grounds may be about to move on. According today's Scotland on Sunday Newspaper, Hearts and it's Chairman Wallace Mercer are coming round to the idea of sharing a ground with Hibs on the site the council wants, at Ingleston. As the negotiations grind on, and on, time is passing quickly towards the deadline set for Premiere League grounds to implement the Taylor Report improvements. Hibs reaction to the proposals is still far from clear, but, with a new report out from the council soon the time is coming for decisions to be taken. This one seems to have been going on for far too long! How about Ingleston? It was the outsider when ground share was first muted, but a super-league home for Edinburgh football in the west of the city, handy for the motorways and the bypass might make sense, might it not? 's the number to dial. The Scottish Office will issue a consultation paper on the future of local government next week... with Mr Major branding regions like Strathclyde monstrosities at the Tory conference, it's perhaps clear the way they're thinking. The government want to replace the complexities of the present arrangements with single tiered councils, that's to say one authority providing all the local services. Few enough people at the moment know which council does what. In Edinburgh the corporation's blamed for everything, despite the fact it ceased to exist nearly twenty years ago! And the region and district split services between them. Do you think your local council does any good? Do you want to keep it er, keep Lothian or Fife regions? Or do you not see any point in keeping them at all? is the number to dial. We'll be going to the telephone lines in a moment or two to talk about these subjects, or anything else you wish to raise this Sunday morning. First, a break. [music with interruption for radio commercials] You're listening to Dial David Johnston, Max A M. Eyes down, look in! Here we go again. The first call of the day Mr from West Caulder Good morning! [speaker003:] Good morning Mr Johnston. I'd like to talk about Scottish Homes open space maintenance charters... i.e., grass cutting etcetera. [David:] Right. [speaker003:] Now, each householder or tenant in a Scottish Homes estate in West Lothian has to pay for this service as well their poll tax. I dare say you've heard of that? But [David:] Tha, that's because the ta, the the estates are, are owned by Scottish Homes and the, the poll tax obviously goes towards the [speaker003:] Yes. [David:] the councils then. [speaker003:] Right. Now, in West Caulder th the charge erm amounted this year to forty pound, that's for nineteen ninety one cos they're always a year behind. [David:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Now, the actual cost of grass cutting amounts to seventy pound forty five... erm, various remedial work which they um specify comes to eleven pound seventy. But, to crown it all, they have a administration of four pound thirty seven er, all of these plus VAT. Now, and these [David:] What what, the four pounds thirty seven's to administer sending out the bill for you? [speaker003:] Yes. So, there are a hundred ninety two houses in this particular estate... erm, which makes a total of eight hundred and forty pound just for sending a bill! [David:] Right. [speaker003:] Now, incorporated in these charges there's a litter collection, so if litter is dumped on District Council ground, but they won't it at the Scottish Homes land, then the owner have to pay for this service. And this was clearly stated, I, a Scottish Homes repre, representatives had a meeting, er, in West Caulder recently and they stated this ridiculous state of affairs! [David:] Right. So so wha, what what you're saying is, it's all just... nonsense? Or or you don't mind paying some of it, or or what? [speaker003:] I don't want to pay any at all. I mean, the District Council have taken over Scottish Homes, they've been passed to them, in Falkirk and Mid-Lothian recently. [David:] Mhm. [speaker003:] And I believe er, at this meeting it was revealed that Scottish Homes had received a tender from the West Lothian District Council for this work over a period of ten years for a figure which comes to four hundred thousand pound... which, apparently, was the cheapest tender! But Scottish Homes have given this job to Scottish land on a yearly basis. [David:] Right. [speaker003:] So I mean, this is a ridiculous state of affairs! Why sho why should we have to pay for this service... as well as our poll tax? [David:] Okay. Well thank, thanks for your call Mr, I dare say that er, other people in a, in a similar position may er, may want to er, take you up on that. Next, Mr from [speaker004:] Portobello good morning. Good morning Mr Johnston! It's about the football ground at Ingleston. [David:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Erm, I don't think it'll ever take off actu, actually, because er... you've got all the traffic all there already... and if you've got say, say you have got Hibs and Hearts... you got all the traffic going out there at the same time... and it's gonna be chock-a-block! [David:] But I mean, Ingleston's well used to handling the Highland Show and er ba, and er, you know, the the existing airport traffic er, and so on. [speaker004:] Yes, but also, what about a night time game? You're gonna have the flood lights on, right beside a na, and international airport? Er, it could be o off-putting for the... for the planes. [David:] Right. But I, but I mean, basically, the the er, the objections you raised to it there are are are planning objections which presumably the councils thought about when they advocated... Ingleston as as the home for a new stadium. [speaker004:] Well, I'd just like to think that maybe we have thought about it, you know. I would, I would like to really think that. Because, look at, I'm not, you know, I'm not er... gonna even talk about the disaster at airport things, you know, the taking off and landing, if you've got a stadium nearby with a lot of people in it, and one of these disasters happened to happen, I know we're not looking for that, but if it does, you're gonna have a stadium full of people... if a plane comes down, well, you know. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Right. [speaker004:] I say, a plane could come down anywhere right. [David:] Are you a football fan yourself? [speaker004:] Yes. [David:] Er th, which team do you support? [speaker004:] I support the one at er, the east end. [David:] Right. So so it [speaker004:] Hibernian [David:] o on on footballing principles rather than planning principles would you have any objection... to [speaker004:] Er [David:] to going to Ingleston? I mean,th this, you know, they said the [speaker004:] I wou, I don't fancy Ingleston at all! I would rather stay in Leith I'm afraid... but... [David:] and if you can't stay in the east, you want to stay in the east of the city? [speaker004:] Yeah, I would like to stay Leith, that's where all the football fans are that support Hibernian. [David:] Right. [speaker004:] Er if my choice, I'd like to be in the docks, but... things cannot ha... happen that way, we've got a lot o, a lot of the yuppies moving in that area, and that seems to be taking over that area so... no chance of a football stadium there. Things do have to move on. The outside of the town seems to be the best idea. Erm, you know, the old American way where you can take your family, park in a car park, have a picnic, go to the game sort of thing. That [David:] Mm. [speaker004:] seems to be the thing they're all looking for. Erm, as I say, you know, I... Straiton's not to far away, it's still far enough. Er,a as I say, Leith Leith [David:] It's stra, Straiton's stretching your loyalty as far as it'll go. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] Is that, is that far enough? [speaker004:] Pardon? [David:] Is that far enough? [speaker004:] What was that again? [David:] Sa Straiton would stretch your loyalty as far as it would go geographically? [speaker004:] Yes, I wo I I would, I would go for that, I'm afraid. But, as I say, Leith is in the preference, and it's a preference for a lot of football fans. [David:] Okay. Thanks very much indeed for that. Next is the, the Hearts chairman, Wallace Mercer, good morning. [speaker005:] Morning David. David, I just wanted to say that there's an article in one of er, the newspapers this morning which really is a di distortion of the current Heart's board's position and I just wanted to [David:] Well that's that's really what I, I started the programme off [speaker005:] Right. [David:] with. [speaker005:] I didn't realise that. [David:] The er, the Scotland on Sunday piece [speaker005:] Right. [David:] suggesting tha that you're warming to the idea [speaker005:] No. [David:] of moving [speaker005:] No. [David:] to Inglestone. [speaker005:] Can I just quite clearly put on record, and it's a unanimous decision of the board, we wrote to Edinburgh District a few weeks ago, we've told them that we will use our best endeavours David, to prosecute the application at Hammerston If we get planning consent and we... decide that we can't afford a new stadium in total, because of the economic situation, we are aggressively re-looking at the redevelopment of Tynecastle. Only in i i in in exceptional circumstances, and I do mean absolutely exceptional circumstances, would we even consider going to Ingleston! We've already written Lothian region this week worried about the safety aspect. We don't want to be cajoled into an arrangement at Ingleston, which is just a political convenience. And Hearts [David:] A political convenience for who? For the politicians? For the council? [speaker005:] Well I,i we feel as a club, sometimes, that our position is being manipulated and distorted. I mean, I'm furious, again, in the newspaper this morning they were having a go at Convenor Milligan! All he has been trying to do is to trying to ensure that there's been even-handed play here... on all the stadium sites and it's disgraceful that his name has been dragged into this! Hearts will either be at Hermestone or Tynecastle. Ingleston, if we were offered a King's ransom, we might have to sit down and think about it, but it is very much a long, long shot! [David:] But surely the problem is that time's cracking on and you're gonna have to start thinking about the Taylor Report recommendations. Well [speaker005:] Well [David:] I'm sure you are already thinking about the [speaker005:] we've already written, we've already written last week to the Scottish office, we've written to our member of parliament and we've asked him to see if we can get a delay on the date because we've taken three years to try and get planning consent. But what I want the Hearts Mid-Lothian supporters to know is that if we don't go to Hermestone, it is highly likely we'll be remaining at Tynecastle, and we could put together a very attractive proposal there. [David:] So, so, when do you, as far as your concerned is this going to be sorted out? I mean, if if if the council [speaker005:] We, as the board will ha, be making a decision, David, within the next two months. We did a confidential letter to Edinburgh District a month ago telling them that. There's no way we can even consider Ingleston just now, when we're involved at Hermestone and re-looking at Tynecastle. [David:] So, so if the, if the region come back to you and knock back Hermestone, er would you appeal? Or would you just say, well that's it let's press again with Tynecastle? [speaker005:] Well we'll have to consider that along with land Messrs, cos we think it's a brilliant site with good road access... and we want to work very hard with the people that put the deal together. But, Tynecastle is very much a, a second option, that we're really quite keen on now. [David:] But wa, but surely an honest broker deal er... involving Hibs and the district council di at Ingleston must be an attractive proposition for [speaker005:] Well [David:] football fans? [speaker005:] well David I can't speak on behalf of Hibs, all I can say [David:] Mm. [speaker005:] is that Tom Farmer and also the Hib's board seem to on, on on, numerous occasions say they've no interest in Ingleston, and they want to go ahead with Straiton. I think they should get planning consent and go ahead and develop Straiton. [David:] But, but are, are the troubles er not, that that you and Hibs and pursuing erm financial objectives rather than footballing objectives? [speaker005:] No. That's crass stupidity! I mean frankly David, if you look at the number of games we've had so far this season, it would be totally impractical for both teams to have played on the same pitch. It'll be physically impossible with fixtures for, with the number of fixtures we've had, it's just, er it's physically no er not not possible. The supporters have quite clearly indicated they don't want to share. It will be madness for Hearts to consider that as an option! And if we don't go to Hermestone, we'll stay at Tynecastle. That's the bottom line! Now, if Edinburgh District want to talk to us about Ingleston, and we don't want to upset them, we'll talk to them, but it would have to be an in, and enormous financial attraction for us even to consider that. [David:] Okay. So, so, two months time we should know where we're going? [speaker005:] I, I would hope even sooner than that. [David:] Okay. Thanks very much indeed for you call. Eileen from Edinburgh, good morning. [speaker006:] Yes, good morning er, Mr Johnston. Erm, I would like to talk about er, one of the articles that's in the one of the Sunday papers this morning. Erm, it's about the government squeezing the pensioners again. Erm [David:] This suggestion that the pensions may be frozen on Thursday? [speaker006:] Yes. Yes. Erm... there's an article in one of the papers this morning, and er it was... I think it's an absolute disgrace! Erm... I'm a home help and... [clears throat]... I go... you know, for a lot of pensions and erm... the pittance that these er... old men and women have to live on a th th, I mean I really think it's terrible! And now they're talking about freezing it! I mean, it seems to be the pensioners who come in for th the... tt... you know, the same thing all the time. And I mean, they're actually living on a pittance as it is! [David:] So, so [speaker006:] Erm [David:] who who do you think, I mean,th, you know, the government's making it pretty clear at the moment, Mrs, that that er, in these troubled times something's gonna get squeezed because... there's so m, many people out of work that gi, you know, they're having to pay more unemployment benefit, there's not enough tax money coming and... and generally the government is hard up, so someone's going to get squeezed in the social security system. [speaker006:] Yeah, but what about the unemployed? [David:] I mean, who who do you think should get squeezed? Should it be, you know, single [speaker006:] Well [David:] parents or [speaker006:] I mean, these old men [David:] People on the dole. [speaker006:] these old men and women, I mean, they've worked all their life and... er th th there are... I mean, there was an article last week... in one of the papers as well, and it said, you know, all, all the benefits that we get, there was thousands not, not claiming benefits that they was entitled to [David:] Mhm. [speaker006:] but it's only for people who are actually on income support. [David:] And th and then we have Mr Lilley saying that there were lots of people at the Tory Party Conference, remember, he had his little list that he was going to go through and... and erm... chop out all the, the social security scroungers and people who abused the system. [speaker006:] Yes. But I mean, er th,th, yes. Well, why not, why not come down hard on them? I mean, why, why make it the pensioners every time? I mean,th th there's, I mean I think it's an absolute disgrace as I said, really! I mean, I think it's terrible and, and I mean, if Mr Lilley himself went into some of the houses that I go into and see the... the existence that they live, because that's all it is, you know, it's just an existence. And some, some of their fa, I mean, if they're lucky enough to have families who do help them... that, er that, that's fine, but I mean a lot of them don't have anybody at all, and they really have to pay their gas, electric, rent, poll tax, off an absolute pittance! And I think it's an absolute disgrace! [David:] Okay. Thanks very much for that. Bu erm,th but as I say, the government were making it perfectly clear this week that... something's gonna get squeezed. I wonder if people have any er, ideas for for who could be squeezed and... not cause an outcry and not cause undue suffering and distress? Nelly from Edinburgh's next, good morning? [speaker007:] Good morning David. How are you? [David:] Very well thanks. Yourself? [speaker007:] I, fine thank you. It's about the housing department. [David:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Er, my friend got a house at Westerhailes Park eleven months ago... and er... it was alright at the beginning, then she started getting hassle, from the kids coming to her door asking for cigarettes... and she didn't give them them, and they were banging on her door, tapping on her windows and everything. So, it got worse and worse and [David:] It's similar to a call we had erm... a couple of weeks ago Nelly, about about er, people being pestered with er with with children like this. [speaker007:] Yes. A and being threatened. So erm, however [David:] What what sort of threats? [speaker007:] Erm [David:] Enough to frighten her obviously? [speaker007:] Yes. So she sitting one night, er, a week past Monday watching her television... and she had the window open a li little bit for er... air, and the next thing there's a boy half way through the window! So, of course, then she panicked. So anyway... she decided she was going out Livingston to live... with this friend of hers. [David:] So,sa sa sa sa, well do, sorry, just don't le don't leave the boy half way through the window, what happened? She just frightened him off and he ran away sort of thing? [speaker007:] Yeah. [David:] Okay [speaker007:] right off. Ha! However, so erm... she asked me if I'd go up and give her hand to... sort things out, so I was up on the Friday morning... and I said well you better phone the corporation and tell them that you're moving out on Saturday... morning. So she's phoned, and I says, ask them if they're coming to board up the windows which were boarded when she went in? [David:] Mhm. [speaker007:] So, erm... she phoned [David:] She, she got a new house in Livingston no problem? [speaker007:] No, she got a friend... there. [David:] Oh right. Okay. [speaker007:] So er, she phoned the corporation and she asked the man, to, to say she was leaving on the Saturday morning... and... were they, were they gonna come and... er ba er what wi, er, bar up the windows? [David:] Mhm. [speaker007:] And their, well their answer's says are they broken? She said no. Well nothing we can do! But the point is David, they are broken, now! So, they've had to get men in, to board the windows up... then if somebody else gets the house, they've got to get these men to come and take the boards down again, then they glazier has to put the window in. This, to me, is a waste of money! [David:] Well, but I mean, we've identified a problem, even if someone was living there Nelly th er, the the person was being terrorized by children and and was having her house broken into. So [speaker007:] Yes. [David:] sa, so what are you saying, that the council should have been straight round to board it up? [speaker007:] No. Because, she's moved now and she doesn't care fo, what happens now. And, and the police can do nothing David, because their hands are tied, for a simple reason, if you name a name, which I don't know any, erm... they gang up on you! Now... a as I say, I was up on there on Friday... and erm [David:] Is this er We Westerhailes Drive you say? [speaker007:] No, Westerhailes Park. [David:] Westerhailes Park, I beg your pardon. [speaker007:] I was up, and I went to the shops and I came and there's a wee boy which used to live in the flats, and he says hello Nelly. He says, can you give my friend a cigarette? I said, I've told you already son, I've stopped smoking. And the lad he was pointing to had a sling on his arm, then there was a bigger boy... and I said, I'm sorry son. So anyway, I went to open the outside door [David:] How old were these children Nelly? Sorry to in keep interrupting. [speaker007:] We well, the wee boy, I think, maybe about seven, the other one may be about ten, and the other one be about fifteen. And as I say, the middle one had a sling on his arm, so, as I was opening the outside door... one of them says, well if you've not got cigarettes, you better give me a tenner or I'll thump you! And I turned right round and I says, the boy with the sling said it wasn't me, I says to the big one, I said, do you want your legs in plaster? And he took off. But this is what the people are going through David! But, as I said, apart from this hassle, you've got to sort it out yourself, cos the police can do nothing! But the corporation, I think, is wasting more money... boarding up these windows... and then when people take them over again. [David:] Do you think that's, do you think that's what what you've experienced there, do you think that's untypical or do you think that's a fairly good example of... of of life in that part of Westerhailes? [speaker007:] I it's... well it's all over. But the point is, if you tell them you're leaving, why don't they come and board the windows up and save all this... money? [David:] But why don't, why don't, why don't [speaker007:] There's still gonna be the ha, there's still always gonna be the hassle. [David:] It's pretty, it's pretty bad that, that a seven year old... if he was seven, is [speaker007:] Yes. [David:] is allowed to run round... victimizing, with all due respect [speaker007:] Yes! [David:] to you, elderly [speaker007:] Yes! [David:] people! [speaker007:] Yes! Yes! [David:] Terrorizing elderly people. [speaker007:] David, I was [David:] What [speaker007:] they won't terrorize. [David:] What? Ah, what? Sorry? [speaker007:] Th, I won't, they won't terrorize me! [David:] Well, not again perhaps, but [speaker007:] No. [David:] they certainly had a try to. But I mean,th, I won, I won [speaker007:] Yes, aha David. And exactly! [David:] I wonder what his parents thought [speaker007:] Alright. [David:] he was doing? [speaker007:] Exactly! You see i... well you, you better give me ten pound or I'll thump you! [David:] Yep. [speaker007:] And of course, but the point is, if you'd a been... an ol and older person like myself, seventy two, which is... was frightened and maybe I'd... even give them, two pound, three pound... but what [David:] That's it. [speaker007:] for nothing! [David:] For nothing. That's right. And whe and when sta [speaker007:] I mean if, and if I said we'll have, if I have the policemen down, and they say they can, there nothing they can do because... we don't know their names [David:] Ah. [speaker007:] and even if you may name them, there'd be a gang on you! [David:] Okay. [speaker007:] And... those were all... spluttered with mud, and eggs, and everything! [David:] Okay. Thanks very much indeed for your call Nelly. I wonder what other people make of that, if, er if other people have had similar experiences? If other people have had other experiences, if if they share erm, er Nelly's er belief there that there is nothing that can be done about it? 's the number to dial and we'll have some more calls in a moment. You're listening to Dial David Johnston on Max A M. I must say, that I find er calls like the one there from from Nelly particularly shocking and and, and can't help wondering how widespread er, this is er across the area? Th the thought of elderly people having their er... later years terrorized by... by er young thugs like that, some of... aged apparently only seven. I wonder if that's er, the exception rather than the rule? Anyway, if you want to chip in on that. Mr from Edinburgh next. Good morning! Hello Mr? [speaker008:] Mr. [spells surname] [David:] I beg your pardon! Mr. [speaker008:] Er... just... I've been a Hibs supporter for forty four years now... following them and er... I don't think, I do nay fancy a move out to Ingleston. And, they keep saying that... surely that would suit everybody? I don't even know Hearts fans that would like to go out there. [David:] But something's gonna have to be done though isn't it, Mr? [speaker008:] Ha, aye. Okay, but... Ingleston's not the answer. Straiton would suit me if er there's... got to be a move. Straiton would suit me. Like the other gentleman that was Portobello... er... if it cannae be... where it is now then... Straiton, for me, would be the best option. [David:] Do, but it isn't it a nonsense to to embark on two twenty million pound stadiums when, with a bit of thought and effort you could probably get away with one? [speaker008:] Well, no, I think er, it's a nonsense for the, you to keep pushing this er... Ingleston one! [David:] It's not me, it's the council that's doing it. [speaker008:] Aha. But it's a,yo, it's not the council that's er... putting out to the people on the radio... it's yourself! [David:] Right. Okay. Thanks for that. Jean from er, Fife, good morning. [speaker009:] Good morning. It's about the home help. [David:] Mm. [speaker009:] Er, I agree with them that the elderly do have a bad deal, but if e, if somebody's got to take... money off... well surely sho, the government should be taking a cut ten to twenty percent off of their damned wages! They keep on getting extra wages every year for doing nothing! [David:] Put the government on performance related pay? [speaker009:] Exactly! Yes! Because, I mean the elderly have got little enough, okay, there is extra benefit, but they don't want people to know how poor they are. I work amongst the elderly and I do know that they are very shy about telling people just how poor they are. So surely if the government er, have, can't have the money they cut their own throat? [David:] Okay. But, I mean,do, to to be more realistic, I mean,o, if, obviously if, if all the government took a fifty percent pay cut it still wouldn't make a great deal of difference? If benefits are going to be squeezed,i is there a, is there a painless way of doing it or, or is it going to cause suffering whatever happens? [speaker009:] Well, I think cu, er... cause suffering whatever it happens, but, surely why, I mean the elderly had to suffer through the wars so why should they have to suffer again now? I mean, the young ones, a lot of them sitting around in Edinburgh and... begging off the streets and that, they could get off their backsides and get a job! And er, let's face it there is jobs going if they're wanting them. Okay, they're poor paid, but at least they would have the pride... of saying that they've got a job... whereas the elderly are having to just sit at home and turning down their fires and turning down their central heating in case they can't afford their bills! [David:] But I mean, were led to believe that some of the people that you see sitting on the streets of Edinburgh begging are actually making [LAUGHTER] a good living out of it []! [speaker009:] Yes! Definitely, they're making far better living, but they're also getting all their benefits, they're getting er fringe benefits off the government. [David:] Mm. [speaker009:] So, I mean, er it's the proof old folks that... get it, they got it in the war time, they had to starve in war time to feed their children. I mean, I, er personally, I mean, my father was killed ten weeks after the war started. My mother had four children she had bring up, without anything for the first two years, how the hell she managed it, I don't know! [David:] Right. [speaker009:] But now tha, they're, they're punishing them because they're... they're ancient! They're just, they don't want them, and yet they're keeping them... living longer! They keep on getting them drugs to keep them going longer, so why? I mean, they can't have it all ways! [David:] Okay. Thanks for that. Mr from Musselburgh, good morning. [speaker010:] Good morning David! It's about this Scottish Homes Charters. [David:] Mhm. [speaker010:] While I sympathize with the caller from West Calder, I feel we pay poll tax as well to cover all these things... but... when I bought my house, my solicitor had me in for two hours... and went through all my obligations under the title deeds... part of was, that I had to pay one three hundredths of keeping the open areas clean and tidy... plus grass cutting. [David:] Is it, is that because the th the house you live in's got a lot of... green space round it? [speaker010:] Mine has none around it that belong, ah ah, doesn't belong to, it belongs to Scottish Homes. [David:] Right. [speaker010:] But, there are parts in the estate which are maintained by district council... district council and are paid by Scottish Homes. [David:] Right. [speaker010:] And you ar, it is part of your obligations when you take the house on. And I feel that many solicitors do not do their job... they do not explain fully to the purchaser what they are taking on. [David:] Right. So yo, so you're saying that it should have been explained to the man from West Calder that that's the sort of, er level of charges he'd had to pay and if he didn't want to pay it he should have taken a different house? [speaker010:] Yes. I mean, I de, I do, I agree with what, I don't agree Scottish Homes charging this at all [David:] Mhm. [speaker010:] but it's there in your title deeds. Therefore, I know it's in my title deeds... and I would assume it's in his title deeds. [David:] Right. [speaker010:] And, I mean I fully sympathize with the gentleman, but I feel his lawyer should explain this to him, and also I feel, why should he pay such a... extortionate rate of poll tax... and have to pay again... for grass cut and street swept? Cos that's exactly what it is. [David:] Okay. Thank you very much indeed for that. Mrs from Edinburgh, good morning. [speaker001:] Er, good morning Mr Johnston. I'm on on about the same subject. I stay in the Slateford district and I'm in a multi-storey flat, I bought my house three year ago. Now, when I started to ba er buy my house, we are paying, we were paying twenty seven pound a month for the upkeep of the building, it's now went up to thirty four pound twenty two pence a month. It's absolut [David:] And wha so sorry, who who have bought your flat from? Is that [speaker001:] Oh oh sorry dear! The co Edinburgh Corporation. [David:] Edinburgh District Council, right. [speaker001:] Yes. Er, now we are paying thirty four pound twenty two pence a month for the upkeep of this building, that, as far as I know there's twelve tenants in this block has bought their house. Now, when I moved in here twenty five years ago it was a very, very nice block! It really was. It's deteriorated and deteriorated something terrible! [David:] How many flats are in it altogether do you think? [speaker001:] There's er, there's nine, it's a nine storey building. [David:] Right. [speaker001:] And er... we're paying, and every time the corporation rents go up, what we pay a month also goes up. Now, as I say, it started off with twenty nine pound, and it's now up to thirty four pound. [David:] So so what do you get for the thirty four pounds [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] the lift? [speaker001:] Well, this is the thing, we have a caretaker... but er... fo for his services, but I've been at the council and I have got nowhere, I have from the corporation, there's an awful lot of people complaining but they'll do nothing about it! That [David:] Complaining about what? [speaker001:] The state the building's in! [David:] Right. [speaker001:] I mean, I have done a lot about it, and I'm the only one that has, as I say, got my mouth going and done something about it. But nobody will back me up! [David:] Sa so so what are you getting? Yo you you're getting a caretaker [speaker001:] That's that's all all the time, that [David:] a door entry system, a lift? [speaker001:] Well we've got the lift, yes. But I mean, when you think of the amount of people in this block that's bought their house and the state that the building's in, I mean, I have told them in the corporation that a lick of paint would nah do it any harm. [David:] Mm. [speaker001:] Because it is, it's deteriorated, and deteriorated something terrible! The [David:] Yeah. [speaker001:] building is really shocking! And I mean, we were told it was a first class area... but there's, if anybody walked into the building just now you would nah see it was a first class area to look at the state the building's in! I mean, you know, when you think of what you're paying as a, the other gentleman was saying, we are paying the thirty four pound twenty two pence a month, then you've also got your poll tax above that, and then your mortgage as well! [David:] Mm. [speaker001:] A, and so, to me, I think for what we're paying we should be getting some service and we are not getting it! This is where I am so annoyed! But er I wish some of the other tenants in this block would back me up and do something about it, but nobody will! They're all saying and they're all talking but I'm the only one, I have been at the council, I have been at the councillor, I have been at Waterloo Place, but nobody will back me up at all! And I think for what we're paying we should be having a wee bit er, the dir, the building should be a looking a wee bit more respectable and presentable to what it is! [David:] Okay. Thanks very much indeed for that. Mrs from Edinburgh, good morning. Good morning Mr Johnston. It's actually about where the squeeze should be taking place. Mm mm. It really annoys me when people get on and do the young people... down! There are not an awful lot of jobs going about, get that straight to the people that, you know! Now, the squeeze should be from the tax at the very top. All these conservatives sit at their conference saying what they're going to do to the unemployed and the fraud and what have you! We had a business man on Question Time... who was saying that five hundred million pound... fraud going on in... the benefits, right? Mhm. But he said that is... a pittance compared to the tax dodging at the top, that's it's billions! Now I really do feel... people, I I'm amazed at the working class people! They don't stick together. They they should see this, and they should be pushing it and saying... you get your house in order before tackle the young people. I know the fraud goes on, and it's wrong, but I can understand it in some cases. What because you see th, people a at the, at the bottom end of society see people at the top end indulging in tax avoidance schemes and things like that, and off Yes! shore bank accounts and think well if they can get away with it why can't we? Yes! Well a, I I didn't say anyone should get away with fraud. No that's wha, no I see that. But You know, but I do, I can understand if you've got desperate, people will try anything, especially for the young families. The there's Now, I'm a pensioner, and I think it's a scandal what we get... for a pension after all the years that you, you fight for you, you put away for your old age, and before you know it you've nothing! And then you become dependant on the state and you have these Tory as smug as you like! White collars, upstarts! I mean their morality! They have their own morality I think we all know that! But, the morality a and to go on about Christianity and again,tha I feel ashamed sometimes when I think of myself... you know, a Christian, that's not Christianity! They, I mean th er, they're caring and sharing, and theirs is greed and gaining! Okay. Thank you very much indeed for that. Alfie from Edinburgh, good morning. [speaker003:] Er, good morning, yeah. I'd like to talk about er, Wallace Mercer and er, I just cannae let him get away with this er... in my opinion he's a two-faced twit! He's er... he's saying that er... the shifting of the ground's political... but I'd to remember him that er,th it's the council that's doing their job, he's not doing his job. They're there to pe, to protect our land, and that's what they're doing. Right? And also, he's got a short memory when talks about political, things like that! Does he not remember when he brought John Major to Tynecastle? Right? Does he not realise that most... er Hearts fans, and I'm a Hearts fan... are not Tories, he is, but most of the fans are not! Right? So er... he's got a very short memory. He does nay, he does nay think, he does nay think before he speaks. [David:] So,sa so what did, what did you make of what he was saying today, it's either Hermestone or he's gonna upgrade Tynecastle? [speaker003:] Erm... no er, I'd li I'd like to see er... him getting, er shifting, yeah... to a different place, but er, he's gotta remember, the greenbelt comes first. So I hope he's listening! [David:] So so, you'd you'd say that you would want to go to Ingleston? [speaker003:] Er, yes I'd, I think I would go along with that, yeah. Yeah. [David:] But but you think the council should protect the greenbelt from both the development proposals of Hibs and Hearts? [speaker003:] Yeah, and er, certainly. Yeah, that's what they're there for, they're doing their job... it's him that's not doing his job. [David:] Okay. Thanks very much indeed for that. Mr from Kirkcaldy, good morning. [speaker004:] Hello! Yeah, I'd like to speak about the... the squeeze on the benefits. [David:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Er, why can't they just... look at, er do a means test for child benefit? Er, if those that were earning over a certain amount, who certainly don't need this child benefit... to same the degree anyway, that's those of at the lower end of the pay scale... we could... they could certainly save a lot of money, and they wouldn't have to do the squeeze down on the ones that would have the most. [David:] I mean, child benefit if, erm... is, is a very emotional issue isn't it? And and people say it's sometimes the only er money tha that a mother wo gets that she can call her own and and use in the way that she wants to. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's possibly true, but [David:] And they say, you know,ev even in apparently wealthy families, er, you know, because the way the money's divided up at the end of the week, or the end of the month or whatever, that that, the no... the child benefit money's all, all the woman gets. [speaker004:] Well th, the money's for the child's benefit in the first place. Er, in double income families, certainly in double income families, surely the wife's gonna have more control over the money... that she earns and the money that she can use? [David:] Okay. But I mean, er you can see the, you can see the point of that and and presumably, yes, there must be lots of very wealthy people who who er, just get the child benefit and hardly notice it... but at the same time, couldn't we means test the old age pension? Cos presumably there must be an awful lot of wealthy old age pensioners about as well... who, who could do with a bit less er, from the state because they've got plenty of their own, er and give a bit more to people who don't? [speaker004:] Well I, I think that's, that is also a possibility. I think every, all the benefits should definitely be means tested, I know that most of them are to a degree. Erm... but there comes a point where th, the government, the line that the government draws for means testing's always... very low. Whe, why to take the, the sting out of the issue they could put the, the line... higher up on the earning scale, or higher up on the sa... the... receiving scale for the older ones who have so, possibly stopped working? Now, I know that these people have worked all their life to get their money and their saving... savings and things like that, but if they're able to manage on wha... with less benefit from the government, surely they shouldn't have to watch other people who struggling and in dire needs because of that? [David:] Okay. Thank you very much indeed for that. Wonder what people make of that? Means test all benefits. Old age pension, family allowance and things like that, just to make sure that those that need get a bit extra.. You're listening to Dial David Johnston, 's the number to dial. Mrs from Loanhead, good morning. [speaker005:] Good morning Mrs Johnston. It's about an article by Alistaire in the... Evening News. I don't know if you've read it? It's about the new council tax stating that erm... people will, householders will not be, receive any notification of the value of their house... and of which various bands are just placed. Apparently if [David:] Are you sure about that? [speaker005:] Yes. It's a, I'm favouring it, in, it was in the Edinburgh Evening News, October the second. [David:] Right. [speaker005:] I've got the cutting here. [David:] Mhm. [speaker005:] This also states that under the government rules and the Lothian regional council can only publish the list in public libraries. And the, this will appear by the end of November, and people will only have... after this first council tax demands in March, they've got to appeal if they think they're in the wrong band. Now what I would like Mr Alistaire and the rest of the... Scottish M P's is to bring up in parliament a... Scotland will have to be revalued every five years as done in the past... where England have only been revalued every seventeen years, which I think is most unfair. [David:] I find it, find it hard to believe that you're not gonna be told... th the valuation of your house, in as [speaker005:] Well, it [David:] in a, in as much as er, you know evaluations an arbitrary, and presumably there must be some right of appeal against the decision taken by the district valuer, or whoever carries out the valuation of the house. [speaker005:] Yeah. I've got the cutting here [David:] Right. [speaker005:] and it says, you can only appeal... it will appear in November, that's when it's going to be, er put into the library [David:] Mhm. [speaker005:] and any appeals against valuation have to be made soon after the first council tax demands are received at the end of March. [David:] Right. [speaker005:] [reading newspaper cutting] Mr said, I advise people to check in case there has been a mistake. They [] [David:] Right. [speaker005:] [reading] should be told the evaluation personally... and given a chance to appeal if they feel it is too high []. [David:] Okay. Thanks very much for bringing that to our attention. Mr from Fyfe, good morning! [speaker006:] Good morning! Er, I just wanted to talk about the cuts, er, proposed cuts in pensions. Yeah? [David:] Mhm. [speaker006:] Erm... I would go further than erm... performance related pay for the cabinet and, and so on, and I would actually put them all on income support... erm... and see how they could cope! Or er, or on the dole er level of er... of money. Erm... because I don't think these people er... appreciate er, what it is to have to count every penny. Erm... and I didn't get any indication from the Tory conference, watching it, that er, that they had any more idea. [David:] Of course, there was that er World in Action programme a couple of years ago wasn't there, when the Tory MP from Newcastle, I think it was, went on the, on the dole for two or three week, but I [speaker006:] Yeah. [David:] mean, presumably it's quite easy... for the first two or three weeks, it's after, after a couple of months that er... life gets more difficult. [speaker006:] Well absolutely! I mean I'd like to see erm... I'd like to see how they would like it. That could be the first cut in my opinion. They're on seventy and eighty thousand er... er a year! Er, the economic situation is is entirely their fault, er, not that I'm saying that the Labour would do any better, but erm... I'd like to see a bit more er, a bit more opposition from the er, from the Labour party and er, not so much direct action, but saying, you know, things do not have to be like this! There do not have to be any homeless people! Er, and it's er... outrageous er... that there are! Erm, but er it's, it's quite wrong that pensioners and er, the poorest should have to take cuts again... erm... when there's people on such high salaries. [David:] Okay. Thanks very much, er for you call. Hilary from Edinburgh, good morning. [speaker007:] Hello. I'd just like to disagree with the gentleman that said that er... the, the child benefit should be mean tested for us. [David:] Aha. [speaker007:] But, I think it is for your children, but erm... I've I worked... er, before I had the children and [David:] Listen, I tell you, I tell you what Mrs, it's an awfully bad line. Put the phone down we'll call you back in in just a second because i, we can't... really make out what you're saying. Sorry about that. We'll come back to you in a second. Er, Jim from Shots hello? [speaker008:] Yeah. Good morning again David. Er, can I ask Wallace Mercer, if he's still listening to the programme, if he was considered the environment in his plans for the football stadium? Er... Ingleston seems to be the only feasible, er... site, where the wi, could be a proposed er... rapid rail transit... system in operation. You know, I'm like the others [David:] yo [speaker008:] I'm like [David:] you like trains don't you? [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Well I do like trains, but it's not just a case of liking trains, okay, yes, I like, I like trains, I like, I mean I'm old enough to remember the steam trains, it's not just a case of that. I read in the papers last week... benzene, the benzene is used in unleaded petrol. [David:] Mm. [speaker008:] They, they have found dangerously high levels of benzene in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and other places, and this benzene apparently it can cause cancer. Now you take your choice, it's either benzene in unleaded petrol or lead in leaded petrol! Also, in today's... er Scotland on Sunday, gathered, they found it not just Edinburgh, but Britain as whole I think. They found there are higher levels of carbon monoxide, carbon monoxide pollution... from vehicle exhausts has increased by forty two percent [David:] Right. [speaker008:] over the last ten years! The, I mean, how long have to be, have we to, er and I'm I'm disgusted with Edinburgh that nobody has phoned in on this sort of point! Er I, they don't seem to ca, er do the Edinburgh people not care about their environment or? [David:] Well especially after that survey last year [speaker008:] Yeah! [David:] tha that that showed er dangerously [speaker008:] Yes! [David:] high [speaker008:] Yes! [David:] levels of er, of er [speaker008:] Mm! [David:] poisonous gases in various parts of the city. [speaker008:] Mhm. [David:] Okay. Than thanks for that. Tom from Edinburgh, good morning. [speaker009:] Good morning David! I, I didn't intend to come on but I think it's one of the best er, Sunday mornings I've had in years! Er, with three ladies and a gentleman come and support the pensioner, I mean this is really great! It gives me a... [LAUGHTER]... the energy to go on and... and er fight all the harder. Now, regarding the means testing of the pensioners... the... means testing with pensioners is dynamite for any government! They've got ten million pensioner... and yet about two million of them are, are quite well off [David:] Mhm. [speaker009:] and er, I can assure you if they started means testing pensioners they would, any government would go out on their ear! Er, and by [David:] [sigh] [speaker009:] the way [David:] But I mean, surely i if there's not enough to go round then those that need it most should get most? [speaker009:] There is enough to go round. We're still one of the richest countries in the world and... [sighing] a we [], and er the people they ha, there's the wealth is only about er... ten percent of the people on, and about eighty percent of the wealth! [David:] Right. But it's unlikely that the conservative party is likely, going to embark on a major distribution of wealth programme between now and the next election. [speaker009:] Yeah. [David:] And and, you know, the benefit's problem's one that's pressing presumably because [speaker009:] Of course, it is! [David:] because they're running short of cash. [speaker009:] Well they, they better start with... perhaps the rich? And er, by the way, pensions, pensions are er, are taxed! You get all these pensions taxed! And... there's loads of people just over er, getting a pension and getting a two pensions and tha they're paying tax as well! So your pension's taxed! [David:] So, so that's er really a way of means testing it er... more painlessly? Okay. Thanks for that. Jim from Edinburgh, good morning. [speaker010:] Aye, I'd like to speak on this er, outrageous proposal to sa, you know, screw down the people on benefit. This, this present government and it's predecessor has attacked the social security... ee... system ferociously already! Th er, industrial injuries benefit's been virtually abolished er ee along with such things as the reduced earnings allowance. And there's been screws on housing benefit, we've had the withdrawal of... the right of students to claim income support and housing benefit, and unemployment benefit during vacation time. Erm, to think that those who are dependant on benefit from public funds are gonna be expected to suffer still more is, as I said, wholly outrageous! [David:] Bu but I mean, what alternative is there if there's not enough money meet the benefit bill? [speaker010:] Well, I mean, who says that there isn't enough... enough money to meet the benefit bill? I mean, I know the government say that, but... but think of the money that we er, must be saving now on our armaments bill. We, with the, you know, detente, and the collapse of the the U S S R... and... we'll be saving a fortune now on, on armaments so surely that could be [David:] But but well I don't, I don't [speaker010:] ploughed back? [David:] Well I don't think we are though, because I mean [speaker010:] Well we [David:] we've just, we've just ordered the forth polar, er the the forth Trident submarine as the er... you know, the the the, the slimming down of the armies yet to take to effect. Presumably they're still, you know, flying around and, and and all the rest of it? [speaker010:] Yeah, but ne, you know, nuclear weapons and so forth, surely those have been scaled down. We're told that erm... you know, the ma, the massive redundancies in places like [David:] Ferranti is... due to erm, you know, those resolutions Defence cut backs. [speaker010:] Yeah. Between ea, between east and west. So the money, and a lot of money must be getting saved... ee... somewhere, so I don't see any reason why that couldn't be ploughed back into the,th th the benefit system. I mean, again, it's outrageous [David:] Mm. [speaker010:] to say, only... state retirement pensions payable on an earnings related basis. After all, people have contributed to these pensions during their working lives... and in order to qualify for a full pension, you need to have paid into it for over forty years. Are you, is someone gonna pay into a insurance scheme for forty years and then suddenly be told, well you don't qualify? I mean, that's a classic case of changing the, the rules after the game's started! [David:] Right. Okay, thanks for that Jim. Er mi, Mrs back again, hopefully on a better line this time. Hello Mrs. [speaker007:] Hello. [David:] Yes it is. [speaker007:] Er, it's just I feel that I've worked all my days and did without... and er... er... had put savings away and things like that so that when I stopped working to have children I would have money, but if you were means tested, and the money is for the children as well, anyway... and the people who, you know, I don't mean that all people, a lot of people who are supposedly not having money, and getting all these things, they sell them and things like that. And I mean, all people do that, but... why is it when you've worked you always seem to get hammered? If you're in a borderline sort of wage, you always get hammered for everything, and you don't seem to get any kind of [David:] But I mean that would just be an argument about where they set the level that you no longer were to qualify for child benefit, but I mean,bu, you know,presuma, presumably er,th the point the man was was making that er, the child benefit goes equally [speaker007:] Aha. [David:] to, to the poorest in society and the richest [speaker007:] Yes. [David:] in society. I mean [speaker007:] Aha. [David:] you know, presumably the erm, Duchess of York qualifies for child benefit. [speaker007:] Aha. [David:] If she ever has time to pop down the post office to get it. [speaker007:] Yeah.... I've, yeah I know, but it's just some days you, I know, I see what you mean, talking about that, but... at the end it is for your children anyway, cos... you know, that money should be for your children... and if you have worked and you put the money away for them anyway, you've paid your taxes and things. [David:] Right. A and,we it, well that that takes us back to to er, to what I think, either er Tom or Jim was saying there that... you know, if you're paying into something yo you you expect to er, to get out of it when and if you need it. [speaker007:] Well you do. You know, and I mean we we work, you know, it's like er... I mean I have to pay full poll tax and all these type of things too, even though my husband's on a sort of very... er basic sort of wage, and I pay all these things... you know. [David:] Okay. Thanks very much indeed for you call. Donald from Livingston good morning. [speaker001:] Good morning. Er... I've just woken up, sorry! Erm just... something that came into my head e er cos the alarm switched on with your programme and it was a gentleman talking about the different taxes and what have you [David:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and I thought... come into my head, it's probably complete rubbish but it seems logical at the time... which was, if you... got rid of er, a lot of the various taxes that they paid and put everything on to VAT, apart from the fact that you'd be... a few, just by upping the rate of VAT... they would collect the extra monies, you'd save a lot of the money you'd pay in administration costs... by, all the various different departments er [David:] And and there's, the more money you had the more things you would buy, so the more VAT you'd pay? [speaker001:] That's right. So I mean [David:] But, but the only trouble [speaker001:] everybody pays VAT because you're... you pay for the things that you buy. I mean, they always get the money through [David:] But th the only trouble, the only trouble with with that is, it might knock the rate of VAT and u up an awful lot and the people who only buy very little will be able to even less. [speaker001:] But the thing is, who, at the moment you're paying... right, er you pa, you get your money off your employers, you pay your tax... you go out and buy your things and pay, pay... your taxes on whatever you buy [David:] Mhm. Oh yes! I, I see the [speaker001:] whether it's services or goods [David:] theory behind it. [speaker001:] then, when you've finished with it you're paying again yo, to the community tax, as it's going to be or whatever [David:] Okay. [speaker001:] er... to get them to take the stuff away. [David:] Okay. Listen, thanks for your call. We're right out of time. Er, thanks to everyone who's called the programme. What a horrible thought! Fancy... turning on your alarm clock an an being woken up by me banging on! Have a very pleasant Sunday. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Margaret? [Margaret:] Yes. That sort of [Mildred:] Right. The Christmas luncheon, we've had the menu come from Mr. But this is the menu. [Margaret:] Oh! Here it is. [Mildred:] And erm... we've talked about it in committee and... decided on the menu that is six forty. Which is the usual sort of Christmas menu, and then there is a choice of er starters... and also desserts, cheese and biscuits and celery, coffee, tea or dinner, and dinner mints. [speaker001:] Six forty plus V A T. [Mildred:] Yes I'm, coming to that. [speaker001:] Oh sorry! [Mildred:] Er yes, er the six forty is plus V A T. Now they've got V A T as erm... seventeen seventeen and a half. [speaker001:] Yes. [Mildred:] And with the wine that brings it up to about eight pounds. But we will... subsidise it from the jumble sale, so... Amy, I hope you have a good jumble [LAUGHTER] sale []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] So that the overall cost each member will be six pounds. [speaker001:] Oh right! Yeah, six. [Mildred:] Erm... next we, er month, the tickets for the luncheon will be on sale... er, from Rose. And when you buy your ticket, if you're a vegetarian... please tell Rose... or if you want salad instead of hot vegetables, tell her, and then we... can sort it out with Mr. [speaker001:] [cough] [Mildred:] Right? [speaker001:] If you could get the right money it would be appreciated. [Mildred:] Yes. Please bring the right money cos that's such a [speaker001:] Having just given a lot of money back... [LAUGHTER] []. [Margaret:] Yes. That is handy if you could bring just the six pounds. You know, and erm... then that will be fine. And that's on erm [speaker001:] Second isn't it? The, er second of [Mildred:] The second of December isn't it? Helen? [speaker001:] I don't know. Yeah it must, yes. November. What day would that be? [Mildred:] I'm just coming to that. It is on Wednesday. It is on a Wednesday, the second of September. [Margaret:] I mean, December, sorry! [Mildred:] December. Now, that would have been a W I committee day... so we've had to alter the committee to the Tuesday, so I'm afraid they'll be no handy craft on Tuesday the first... of December. No handy craft... because we have to have the hall for a committee meeting. Cos there's too many of us to go in the little room. [speaker001:] Well can't you send the, the handy craft in the little room Joe? Because most of us will be on the committee. Er committee [Mildred:] Right. [speaker001:] which could go in the other room, if they don't want [Mildred:] Yes. [speaker001:] . [Mildred:] Oh well there will be handy craft. Yes that's fine. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mildred:] Fine. [speaker001:] Yeah? [Mildred:] Yes, that's great! Fine thank you. The Essex News to Mrs today if you want to order it, it's ten copies for pound... and Home and County, as you well know, has gone up to ten pounds twenty pence. Which is rather a lot I think. [speaker001:] It is. Is there anything coming down? [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] Nothing. No. [speaker001:] Not on offer? [Mildred:] Ah! We've got nothing on offer! The coffee morning tombola made forty pounds, which was very good! And erm... Maisy and Freda say that they would still like a few bottles and that for the stall... please. Er, the donation for the Lion we have sent, I dunno if you've sent it, have you ro... Rose? Fifty [speaker001:] No I haven't, yet. No. [Mildred:] No. [speaker001:] Cos erm... th the cheque book is [Mildred:] Oh yes! With the auditor. Well we're going to donate to the Lions fifty pounds from the Victorian Fayre.... There'll be a Christmas Fayre meeting on Tuesday the third November at two thirty in the hall here. And, that's for stall holders and anybody that would like to come and along and offer their services of help. Please. [speaker001:] What date's this? [Mildred:] Th, Tuesday the third of November. And if you've got any money left... [LAUGHTER]... er... the calendars and diaries Brenda has taken the names today... and the money at the same time when you order.... Because the orders have to be in so that, when Rose goes to headquarters she can fix them up.... Margaret have you done the flower list? [Margaret:] Yeah. [Mildred:] Oh! You have? [Margaret:] Mhm. [Mildred:] About the flower list erm... you know, when it comes to the winter time and you've got, you're getting flowers and they're expensive and that... a display of dried flowers is quite adequate to bring... because, come January time flowers are quite expensive. [Margaret:] Thank you everybody who said they would do them for next year. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mildred:] Erm, there are five committee members retiring. I dunno why! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] Must be me! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] They are... Janice, Win... Mrs... Margaret, and Rose. Erm... so we wish to thank them all, or I wish to thank them all very much for all their hard work and support they've given me. Erm... which I couldn't have managed without them. So erm... the voting papers are out today so please erm... go round and get peoples' names. But you must ask the person, don't put just somebody's name down, thinking they might go on the committee, erm, you must ask them first before you put their name on the... list. And then perhaps, Margaret, you'll collect them will you? And bring them up later? [Margaret:] Yes. [Mildred:] Thank you. Erm... I don't know if anybody was erm... keen to go to Denman after whe, our outing there which was most enjoyable? Erm, so if anybody would like to erm put their hand up that would like to go to Denman this coming... year... er, please do so or let Margaret know. Is there any takers? [speaker001:] Er, will there be a bursary? [Mildred:] Yes. A bursary of a hundred pounds, yes. Oh! There's erm [speaker001:] You have to be a member for two years. Yes. And not if you've been before. [Mildred:] No, that's right. Well Janice... and Margaret sa [speaker001:] Becky. [Mildred:] No, Becky. [speaker001:] Becky. [Mildred:] And we'll talk about this in committee and... let you know. Okay? [speaker001:] Okay. [Mildred:] Vera, would you like to say som, oh! I have to thank Vera for the holiday to Scarborough, not that I went. [Vera:] It's, it's not next Saturday! [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] No. [LAUGHTER] No []! Never mind. [Vera:] I mean it's, it was next Saturday. [Mildred:] Oh yes! Well it was, it was from then. [LAUGHTER]... Erm, we wo, I would wish to thank Vera cos it's a lot of work for erm, a lot of worry... and I do hope that you all enjoyed it. Now, Vera you want to say a word don't you? [Vera:] Thank you. First of all, I expect... most of you have heard... that the proposed holiday to Torbay has had to be cancelled... cos we didn't have enough support. [speaker001:] Oh. [Vera:] And er... if you'll bear with me, I'm having competition about this, with these holidays here I haven't got anything as cheap as that probably. [speaker001:] Oh have you? Yes Vera! But those holidays, they're in February! But [Vera:] And they're only two nights. [speaker001:] Yes! But we don't [Mildred:] Ah! But some [speaker001:] want two nights in the middle of winter! [Mildred:] somebody is a bit later on in the season... but they're overnight travel by coach I would have thought. [speaker001:] No good! Vera? [Vera:] Right. Oh! So that's sorted. [speaker001:] I wouldn't have thought they'd be brought forward either. [Vera:] No. I shouldn't think so. [speaker001:] It is ho, well you know, I suppose. [Vera:] Anyway, I have erm... started to arrange a holiday, if you can bear it, for next September, to Newquay. The price er wi, we depart on the eleventh of September... for eight days... the usual... additions, you know, the coach from here, and everything. And the price is two hundred and thirty three pounds... with four pounds cancellation fee. Er, I've got... a couple of brochures here, if you like to have a look at... but don't, please, take them away. And I've got some itineraries... which you can take away, if you want. If you'd like to come and get one in tea time. Er, I should like to the names... next month... and I hope you'll all support us because... the numbers are going down... and if we don't get sufficient numbers, it'll have to cancelled like the Torbay one. And that's rather a pity because we've been doing these holidays for a long time now, and I think, those people have enjoyed themselves? Say yes! [speaker001:] Yes! [LAUGHTER] [Vera:] ... Erm, I think that's all I can say to you today. Names next month. And come and get an itinerary if you want one. Okay? [speaker001:] Ah. Thank you. [Vera:] Thank you. [Mildred:] Right. Thank you! Essex News erm... well we couldn't really find anything very exciting in it! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [Mildred:] The club went to Bournemouth. Er... Shakespeare and Cadbury World... and a Swiss wonder. Well that's in February, I mean who would go in February to Switzerland? And erm... there's a five day tour to Dunoon and the Cars of Bute on the first of March. Half board, a hundred and nine pounds. [Vera:] Getting a little competition aren't I? [Mildred:] But there's no takers though Vera, have you noticed? [Vera:] No. [Mildred:] I'm only trying to sell the time then! Ha! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Vera:] But you have to do a dance when you want to fill ta time in! [Mildred:] Oh well! That'll be the finish! Erm, we've got for friendship, Harlow's name is mentioned. [speaker001:] Oh! [Mildred:] Well I think that's about all. I'd, I'm afraid that's all this month in Essex News. Have you got anything else Margaret, at the moment? [Margaret:] No. [Mildred:] Erm, has the speaker come? [speaker001:] Yes. [Mildred:] Right! We'll wait then thank you. Did you get that message Margaret... that I shall be away? [Margaret:] Yes I did. [Mildred:] And you told... [Margaret:] I've put it in my diary. [Mildred:] Oh good! I've just got Looks like you won't have a [Margaret:] Will she be, will she be standing there? [Mildred:] Er [Margaret:] Will she be standing there? [Mildred:] Yes. Aha. Probably won't understand a word I said! [Margaret:] She will. [Mildred:] [LAUGHTER] I feel such a natural! [speaker001:] Yeah, it was [Mildred:] [LAUGHTER] It's innit? Ray. Ray. [speaker001:] Oh! [Mildred:] Margaret this is your seat. [Margaret:] Just put it there cos she wants you to. [Mildred:] Oh is it? Oh really? If all these people about were to be quiet [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Mildred:] I shall [Gloria:] I was told the ring the bell so I did. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] Yeah. [Gloria:] Good afternoon ladies! It's very nice to see you all here this afternoon. My name is Gloria... and I run a beauty salon which is at the end of the high street... by R D [speaker001:] Argins the Mm. [Gloria:] jewellers. Okay? I've been there two years now. And Carol has, she joined me in June. So this is Carol. So, if any of you would like to come and see us... at the salon... we will both be there and very happy to see... and answer any of your questions. I would like, at this point, to say thank you for Sh, to Sheila,sh, Sheila, she popped in to ask me would I... do this er... talk for you this afternoon. So, thank you to Sheila for asking me, and letting us come to your... meeting this afternoon. It's been a pleasure. Now, the topic that Sheila asked me to talk about was skin care. Now, er, there is no... what can I say? There is no... skin care is a very basic thing. You don't have to worry, there is no, I can't think of the word that I want to use. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... Never too late to start. [Gloria:] Well it's never too late to start with good skin care. [speaker001:] I hope so. [Gloria:] So what is skin care? What we must do to have good skin is to cleanse, tone, and moisturize. How many of us do... cleanse, tone and moisturize? How many of us here use soap and water? [speaker001:] Yes. [Gloria:] Okay. If you use soap and water, that's fine. But really, soap is very drying on our skin... and if you didn't use soap and you use a cleanser... you would certainly find a difference immediately. You don't realize how drying soap is. So we do try to avoid using soap. So what we use as a cleanser, is either a cleansing milk... or a cleansing cream. Now, today I've got two types of products with me, one is Gloria M products that we're going to use as a demonstration, and the other dermatological products that we're going to use as a dem demonstration. So I'd like two... volunteers later on to come and have their faces cleansed, toned, and moisturized. And then you can go and tell all your friends how it feels, okay? Now, the Gloria M products, in that range, we have a cleanser, which is cucumber cleansing milk. Now, all these products are water soluble which means they can be rinsed off with water. Gone are the days when you've got these thick creams that you couldn't get off unless you used an alcohol toner to remove them. So, a cleansing milk... a little a amount in the palm of your hand... put over the face, then rinsed off with warm water and then you can dry your face with a towel... and you would feel then, perhaps, that you'd really washed your face. Then you must cle... you must... use the toner after that. And the toner really does get rid of... any of the cleanser that you've left on... and closes the pores. Now the fact that you've rinsed off with water anyway, you shouldn't really have any of the cleansing medium on the skin. So really we use the toner to close the pores... so that you don't get any creams or any dirt in the pores, so that the skin is nice and clean. So you cleanse, you tone... and the most important thing after that... okay? Is to moisturize. Now in the Gloria M products we do the avocado moisturizer or the vitaminized moisturizer. Now ladies, I don't mind if you don't cleanse properly... or perhaps you don't even tone... but the moisturizer is the most important, from my point of view. I feel that the moisturizer will keep your skin nice and soft. You won't get any flakiness, you won't get any dryness on the skin if you use a moisturizer. You don't have to use make up... but certainly to cleanse and moisturize is very important. Now with the dermatological products, I actually haven't bought those with me apart from those that we're going to use as a demo... erm, the have a very nice cleanser called... special cleansing gel, and if you're used to using soap and water... it really is very similar to using soap. You put a little of the gel in the palm of the hand, use water to lather it, put the lather over your face, and then again, rinse off with warm water... and you feel as if you've used soap and water. We th, do then have a toner, but you don't necessarily have to use the toner because you've used to water to cleanse off the cleanser. And then, again, a very important product is the moisturizer. The moisturizer keeps your skin nice and soft and supple, it doesn't get dry. Now, don't forget we're coming up to winter, we have the cold winds, we have the rain, if you're not wearing a moisturizer the skin will suffer. Okay? It wi, really will get dry, and possibly very red. You know you get these little red veins on the su, on the... cheek area... if you don't wear... a moisturizer those little red veins can get worse, so we use a moisturizer to try and protect the skin. So there's no secret about good skin care. It really is, only, cleanse, tone, and moisturize. It does depend on the products you use. If you've got plenty of products at home, fine, use them... okay? If you haven't, if you're using soap and water, just think about perhaps, whether you should use a cleanser, a toner and a moisturizer. Alright? Now, is there anybody here who would like to volunteer to come and have their face, cleansed, toned and moisturized? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Come on! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [clapping] [Gloria:] Of course we go back an awful long way don't we? [speaker001:] Yes. Yeah. [Gloria:] Are you going to tell them how much? [speaker001:] Er... about. [Gloria:] Forty years? [speaker001:] Forty years! [Gloria:] Forty years I've known Gloria. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Miss used to be a cam, the, what were you? [speaker001:] Campaigner Chief. [Gloria:] She was a Campaigner Chief when I was a campaigner. [speaker001:] My lovely little girls! [Mildred:] can you Margaret? [Gloria:] Ca, can you see? Do you want to just round her neck? [speaker001:] Ooh! [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Put a band on, just so that we don't... you know, erm... squash their hair. That's it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Now somebody else, we need another volunteer to try the other products er [speaker001:] Well I'm thinking [Gloria:] erm [speaker001:] about it. Go on! [Gloria:] Just so that we don't get any products on... the clothes. [speaker001:] Right. That's it. [Gloria:] So Carol is now using the... cucumber cleansing milk and she... if just show the ladies what you're doing Carol, she's just actually tipping it out into the palm of her hand, there's no water necessary, okay? Rub it into the palm of your hand, and then spread it on to your own face. It will be nice if you could get somebody to do this for you every day wouldn't it? [speaker001:] Oh yes! [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] So when you actually are putting it on your own face... make sure that you rub your fingers all around, especially around the nose. Okay? You get a build up of black heads around the nose, and around the chin. Okay? So, really make sure you spread it over the whole of the face, rubbing it in with your fingers. Now Carol's doing this beautifully, and it really does feel nice! Okay? She's massaging in the cleanser.... And does it feel nice? [speaker001:] That's lovely! [Gloria:] So once you've got that one, even if you're wearing make up, you can use this cleanser, okay? It will take the make up, which you might need to use the make up, er the re, er the cleanser... possibly twice, or three times if you're wearing make up. Okay? We normally say cleanse twice anyway. So you should cleanse with your cleanser twice. If there is make up on... from the first erm removal, then you could then take off the make up with the first application and then go over twice more, so it would be three times if you've got quite a lot of base... or foundation on.... Okay? So... now Carol's going to use damp pads... damp cotton wool to take off the cleanser. Now you at home would actually use... warm water to splash over your face.... Now if you notice Carol's movements, they are always in a an upward direction... and the reason for this is so that you don't drag the skin, so when you're... whatever you're doing with your face,whe, when you're cleansing, toning, and moisturize, always try and keep the movements going up... because you don't want to stretch the face, you don't want to make any... any loose skin any looser than it is [speaker001:] Mm mm. [Gloria:] or... or bring any more erm, little wrinkles or little lines that we have.... Now we're going to tone. And the toner actually closes the pores, because we may have opened those pores slightly by using the cleanser, and also, if there is any cleanser left on the skin the toner will remove that as well. And the toner we're using is rosemary skin tonic, and that's erm... from the herb, rosemary. It feels nice and it's, it is very good for the skin.... It usually is cold. Mm?... So once you've cleansed, and once you've toned... you then make sure that the face is either tissued dry or you can actually pad to your face, after the toner, with a towel. As long as it's dry before you apply the moisturizer.... Have you gone to sleep down there? [LAUGHTER]... Carol's now going to tissue dry... the toner.... And now the skin is perfectly clean... and it can be... ah, it can have... the moisturizer on it.... Carole's using the avocado moisturizer which is very creamy... it contains avocado oil, which is very good for the skin... and it's a natural product.... If you feel, ladies, that when you put your moisturizer on and the skin is still feeling quite dry, put another application of your moisturizer on. Alright? And do make sure you put plenty of moisturizer on the cheeks and on the nose, because they're areas that actually do hit the elements... more than the other parts of the face.... Not to forget the neck, the neck is part of the face... and this is where we show the... the lines don't we? Around the neck. So if you massage in the neck with your moisturizer with upward movements it will help those lines. Okay? It won't take them away... once they're there they don't disappear, but it does help to ease them, they don't look quite so deep. Alright. If you actually massage... the cream into the... the neck.... Mhm? [speaker001:] Right. [Gloria:] How does that feel? [speaker001:] That's fine. [Gloria:] Yes? [speaker001:] Am I finished with now? Nearly. [Gloria:] And yo do you want to straighten your hair? Mm mm. [speaker001:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Would you like sit down? [speaker001:] Yes. Oh! That's it! [Gloria:] Alright? [speaker001:] [clapping] Thank you very much. [Gloria:] Do you have? [Mildred:] Can we thank... Margaret? Thank Margaret for being a volunteer okay? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Gloria:] Please may we have another volunteer? And this is Molly. So she's going to have the dermatological products used on her this afternoon. [speaker001:] Do you usually use soap and water on your face? Yes. [Gloria:] Molly uses soap and water to wash her face so we're going to use... the cleansing gel which lathers up like soap. Alright? And we'll see, we'll ask her what she fe, what it feels like on her skin... to see if it feels better than soap.... So Carol's using the gel and she's making it into a lather. Alright? It's just a little gel that you put in the palm of your hand... use some warm water and lather it up and put the lather over your face. And again, make sure that you use your finger to go round the nose, and over the fore head, around the eyes. And another thing about... directions of, of your hands, upward movements all the time, and make sure with the eye area, go in towards the nose, because if you keep bringing [speaker001:] Mm. [Gloria:] your movements coming outwards you stretch the skin and you make even more lines come around that area. [speaker001:] Oh that's nice! [Gloria:] So, take your fingers from the outside and move them in towards the nose and round... so that you don't stretch the skin even more. [speaker001:] Look at your hands! [Gloria:] Perhaps we just need a little more water to make a bit more lather. [speaker001:] [whispering] []. [Gloria:] Now of course, if you went to a salon [speaker001:] [whispering] []. [Gloria:] for a a facial cleanse you would actually laid on a couch, like this, and er have a head band and have a towel round you... and you have nice soft music playing... alright? [speaker001:] Mm. So [Gloria:] And [speaker001:] sing everybody! [Gloria:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] and then the therapist will actually cleanse, tone and moisturize. And you would actually, in a facial, you would have a facial massage with aromatherapy oils... and that's very relaxing, that's very nice. [speaker001:] [whispering] []... Sounds like. [Gloria:] So we've got the cleansing gel on and now we're going to remove it.... Carol's uses, using sponges to take off the gel. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Yes. We haven't got any more. [speaker001:] . [Gloria:] The sponges feel nice and soft, they don't drag the skin.... And it is important, ladies, to remove all the cleanser, not to leave any on the skin. So do make sure that whatever cleanser you're using, make sure it all comes off. Because if it doesn't, your moisturizer, which is very important, isn't working properly. Because there's not the ingredients in the cleanser that there is the moisturizer and if you have any cleanser on the skin it's blocking the work of the moisturizer.... So we've cleansed off the cleanser now... going to tissue dry... Now toner is in a spray bottle, so we're going to gently use the spray over Molly's face. Close her eyes, it's a very gentle spray. Mm mm? It's like raindrops.... And then we're going to use a very nice cream... erm called moisture balance... and that's a dermatological product... and, and that's for keeping the skin nice and soft, and keeping the wrinkles at bay.... And again, when you're putting on the moisturizer, don't forget the neck. And always use upward movements. [speaker001:] [cough] Can you do the neck? [Gloria:] And how's it feeling Molly? [speaker001:] That's really lovely! You could do this all day long! [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] It is very relaxing, really. [speaker001:] I tell you something, it's much better than the operating table! [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] In fact, some people when they do come into the salon they say, ooh it's like an operating theatre! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] It's not really. It's quite pretty in there. It's just I think, when there's a couch and there's white tissues over the couch it probably can look a little bit clinical. But certainly, we don't operate. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] We don't amputate. We don't do anything in that line! [speaker001:] Thank goodness for that! I can... but it is, but it is nice. What was tha er tha that one?? [Gloria:] No, this is the dermatological. [speaker001:] Yes. Oh. [Gloria:] This has a lemon grass in [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gloria:] which you can actually smell.... Would you like sit up Molly? [speaker001:] Yeah. Right. Back down again. [Gloria:] The only thing, ladies, when you have a facial, your hair get slightly squashed. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] with that on. [Gloria:] So don't go to the hairdressers before you us, alright? Go to the hairdressers after [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gloria:] we've seen you. [speaker001:] Good. [Gloria:] There we are. [speaker001:] There you go. [Gloria:] Can we have a clap for Molly for [speaker001:] Yes! [Gloria:] for being our volunteer? [speaker001:] [clapping] [Gloria:] They were just very quick demonstrations, but it does take longer if you come to a salon. But, with yourselves, do make sure you cleanse properly... I'm not too worried about your toner, but you must use a moisturizer, just to make sure that your skin is nice and soft and supple. Okay? And if you want to wear make up then of course, make up goes over the top of your moisturizer. Okay? Erm, I have brought some price lists here, and I think we've got some time, Sheila, what time am I... finishing? [speaker001:] Erm, well you, it really doesn't matter. It's up to her. [LAUGHTER] [Mildred:] About erm twenty past three. I dunno what the time is now. [speaker001:] Well I said, you know [Gloria:] It's three o'clock. [Mildred:] It's er... about quarter past three. [Gloria:] About quarter past [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gloria:] three. [speaker001:] So that's a little time. [Gloria:] So I've got a little time to speak? [Mildred:] Yes. Yes. [Gloria:] Erm, if you would like a price list, by all means, at the end you can come up and take one. Erm, I'll have some brochures going around, some leaflets going round just... advertizing what we do... but if, I'd like to just mention to you that erm, there are other, other treatments that we do, of course, at the salon. We do, a selection of facials, all... are very nice... erm, we also do eyebrow shaping, eyebrow trimming, some people would call that... erm... and removal of facial hair. Sometimes, people have problems with doing eyebrows, if they wear glasses [speaker001:] Mm! [Gloria:] you can't see your own eyebrows can [speaker001:] No. [Gloria:] you? And, you take your glasses off to do your eyebrows and [speaker001:] You can't see them. [Gloria:] you can't see [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] you put your glasses on to try and see, and you can't... pluck the eyebrows because the glasses are in the way... so we do quite a lot of eyebrow trimming, erm... at salon. And what we do with the eyebrows, we don't just use a pair of tweezers... we actually use wax, so if you've got quite a lot of hair underneath... your brow, we never take from above the brow, just below, if you've got quite a lot of hair, it can be painful if you're just using tweezers, so what we do now... we use a little bit of hot wax, which is pink, so we put some wax under the brow, either side, let the wax... erm, cool and set, and then pull the wax off. [speaker001:] Ooh! [Gloria:] Yes. And everybody says,so ooh! It's really not too painful, it sounds painful, but if you think of the eye area being very small, it really doesn't take long. The wax is on for about two minutes, and it takes two seconds to pull it off. And when we pull the wax off, all the hairs are in the wax... so the majority of the hair is out in one pull. Then we use our tweezer to actually shape the eyebrow. And then after that we have some soothing gel put on the eyebrow so that, the skin is slightly pink so that when you actually have a, erm, an eyebrow trim, the soothing gel takes away the pinkness. And that would last six to eight weeks ladies. [speaker001:] Oh lovely! [Gloria:] It's it's... very nice treatment. Erm... a lot of us are bothered by eyebrows... some of us have got really long coarse hair that grow in the eyebrows and we take those out as well. So don't ever be frightened of having an eyebrow trim because it really is a very simple treatment. And the other part of facial waxing is, on the chin, we tend to get quite a few growing on our chin, and upper lip. There are two things we can do with hair on the upper lip, we can either bleach it so that it doesn't notice, or we can actually remove it with wax, or we can have electrolysis. Now electrolysis is the permanent removal of hair by the insertion of a very small needle attached to a machine... and you press the button on the needle holder which releases current, and that cooks the hair, it actually cooks the root of the hair, but each hair has to be individually treated, so if you've got quite a lot of coarse hair... it can take a lot of time, and a lot of money. Okay? Normally, the time is fifteen minutes, and for fifteen minutes it's five fifty, so if you've got a lot of hair, it's quite coarse, it's going to go on for several months. So if you didn't really want to embark on that treatment... we again, use the waxing treatment... as for the eyebrows, we use ca ho, hot wax on the area that you need, on the chin, on the upper lip. A small piece of... warm, of hot wax applied to the area, it's set, pulled off, and the all the hairs come away in the wax. And it feels really very smooth afterwards. It doesn't take long, it's just, really, seconds. It doesn't hurt because it's pulled off so quickly, and when we pull it off, we put our finger straight over the area and it takes the sting away. So really, it's not ma, you know, don't be frightened about having waxing. So we do the, waxing for the chin, and for the upper lip. So, you see, you've got other methods, you've got waxing, you've got bleaching, you've got electrolysis. But I would think, possibly, waxing would be the thing that, the treatment that perhaps you might consider. If you are worried about facial hair, they're out in just seconds. Okay? So, along with your eyebrows, and along with your facial hair... and along with your erm... skin treatment, your facial, you'll feel a new person won't you? Yes? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] Really will feel nice! And what else do you? We do manicures, and we do pedicures. Manicures are,i, are ideal for trimming your nails, pushing down the cuticles, and making your nails look into a nice shape and nice and clean. You don't necessarily have to have bright coloured polish on at the end. We can buff them until they shine, or you can have just a natural erm... base coat on just to give it a shine. And then we do pedicures. Now, pedicures is really a manicure of the toes, but what we do with a pedicure, we actually rub away the hard skin that you may have on the bottom of your feet, on the side of your big toe, that's usually where it builds up, or on the ball of the foot. We are not chiropodists, we don't actually cut away the hard skin because that i is a chiropodist's job, but we certainly do have a good try at trying to get rid of as much hard skin as we can. We soak the feet in nice, erm, antiseptic soapy water, and when we think the feet have soaked enough for the skin to become soft, we take the feet out and then we rub with a foot file to get rid of the hard skin. You have a nice foot and leg massage, which really does make you feel nice. You feel, at the end of the treatment you feel as if you're walking on air! It's really a very nice treatment. A after the, the foot and leg massage, erm, we actually cut the toe nails and we file the toe nails... and again, sometimes toe nails aren't terribly easy to cut yourselves, we can't always get down there can we? And also, the toe nails get very thick, and quite hard to cut as we get older, so we actually do that for you, we've got toe nail clippers that make it a lot easier. And once we've clipped the nails, we actually file the nail so that it's nice and smooth and it doesn't catch on your tights or it doesn't catch on the sheets at night. So, that is another nice treatment that makes you feel better. Okay? So that's a, a pedicure, which helps you to have your toe nails nice and short and to get rid of the hard skin. So what else do we do? We do... body massage... or back and shoulder massage. Now, if any of you get terribly tense at the back of shoulders which we all seem to do nowadays, if you come for just a back and shoulder massage, we actually work on the back of the neck and along the shoulders using massage movements which helps to relax you, which helps to actually break down the lactic acid that builds up in the muscles that causes you pain. You don't realize, ladies, how much you sort of, keep your shoulders up... with tension. I mean, I do the same thing, I get home at night and I'm like this! And I think tt! Oh! I need a massage! But Carol and I never seem to get time to be able to do these things on each other, but we have had the treatment so we do know that... massage really does help you to relax. So that's another treatment perhaps, that you might like to consider. It doesn't mean that you've got to take all your clothes off, not at all! You lie on your front and we actually take, ask you to take either your dress or your blouse off... and we put towels over you. If you're wearing a bra we just undo your bra, okay? And then we work on the back. There's nobody else there, there is nobody else looking at you. A, a curtain is used to screen you off, and if it's a very cold day we've got infra-red heat... we've got a lamp above the he, the couch and... we actually put on the infra-red heat so we warm you up first before you start, before we start... so your body is feeling nice and warm and you're feeling relaxed, we have nice music playing and it does help... right, with the tension that builds up on the shoulders. [speaker001:] Oh! [Gloria:] So that's something else to think about. I'm telling you all this, and perhaps you don't have to erm... pay for any of these treatments... we do gift vouchers, so if you've got anybody who wants to buy you a gift of any sort, you could always say well, I fancy erm... an eyebrow trim, or I fancy a pedicure... perhaps they would like to buy you a gift voucher and then you can come in and it could be a present for you. So you wouldn't necessarily have to pay out for these treatments, you see. So erm... you know, if you, if you... er, don't know what... to say to your family to buy for Christmas, why not come and have a eyebrow trim and they can buy you a gift voucher for that? So, you know, we're always there, Carol and I will actually help you, if you'd like to pop into the salon... and ask about the... gift vouchers. A gift voucher can be of any value. Alright? You don't have to actually look at the price list and say... oh well I'll have... a back and shoulder massage, which is ten pound, you don't have to have anything for ten pound, you can have it as little as five pounds, two pound fifty, we don't mind, it can go towards a treatment. Or, if that person buys you a gift voucher and you don't necessarily want to have... a treatment that states on the gift voucher, you can come and exchange it for products. We're not worried, we're not actually keeping you to anything that's... down on the gift voucher. But perhaps it would be nice if somebody gave you a gift voucher for Christmas and it said an eyebrow trim, and you were dying to have an eyebrow trim but you didn't know where to come, and perhaps you were a little bit frightened about having one, so, it might, you know, get you to come into the salon. And now that you know that Carol and I are there... erm, you know somebody to speak to, cos sometimes you go into a shop and you're not really sure who's there, and when you see a face that you recognize it helps you doesn't it? Are there are any questions you would like to ask? [speaker001:] What kind of erm... aromatherapy do you pu put on your face? A what? Aromatherapy on your face? [Gloria:] Yes. [speaker001:] Aha. [Gloria:] You know the therapy oils? [speaker001:] Aha. [Gloria:] Erm, when we do a skin treatment we actually do a skin analysis... and we use the appropriate... erm, aromatherapy oils for the particular skin we're working on. We have a selection of er three small bottles and they have a mixture of essential oils in them [speaker001:] Mm. [Gloria:] and it does depend on what skin type we're treating. Sometimes we're se, we're treating a very sensitive skin, sometimes we're stre, we're treating a very dry skin, or it could be dry and sensitive. So it does depend on what skin type, and we actually choose the erm... aromatherapy oils according the skin type. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Gloria:] And, I must say ladies, they do smell very nice! And when we are actually doing the massage i... the massage itself is relaxing but to have the sweet smelling... erm, essential oils being used as well, it really is very nice!... Any more questions? [speaker001:] [whispering] []. [Gloria:] Do you know where we are at the top of the high street? [speaker001:] Not really no. I know where you are. But I wondered if everybody else knew. [Gloria:] Okay. Do you er, actually know erm... where the George is? Or it used to be the George. [speaker001:] Mm. [Gloria:] The big white building at the other side of the er, pedestrian crossing. [speaker001:] Yes. About five yards. [Gloria:] If you just continue five yards, that's right and then Jasmine Flowers is in the corner, and then the salon is just at... er it... joins on to Jasmine Flowers. It has a black canopy over the front... and it says Health and Beauty Salon, with a telephone number... and at the side of the door it says Gloria M. And please, if you come up to the door and the... times of opening says closed on there, we're not closed, it's just sometimes we've forgotten to change the closed to open. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Gloria:] But do come in. You know, sometimes we walk in first thing in the morning and we start straightaway and we forget to turn the er... closed to open. So, you know, mind you, we've left it now and it says open... and we're not, we're here with you! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Are you open every day? [Gloria:] We are open Tuesdays through to Saturdays. We close all day Monday, Tuesday's we're there from nine thirty to five thirty.

[speaker001:] I've got, [Doctor:] What was that to help us? Oh yes. [speaker003:] Are they going to hurt Dr. See the powders you give me to. [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker003:] My toilet's in my toilet's in. When I take one of them it seems to run in all the time know what I mean Doctor? [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker003:] Erm every time I get off my toilet it's awfully hot. [Doctor:] It's burning is it? [speaker003:] Aye I'd. [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker003:] You know what I mean? [Doctor:] Burning down the side right. Well that's that's [speaker003:] Going out for a I have a big cos I was on my own there, it's like a a... a heavy pain, crushing [Doctor:] Aye down at the bottom of your back, right let's get that sorted. [speaker004:] It's crab. [speaker003:] Getting awfully [Doctor:] Never. [speaker004:] Aye [Doctor:] They don't they don't make crab at the end. [speaker004:] Yes, awfully crabby. [Doctor:] Don't don't believe that. [speaker004:] He's jumping down everybody throat. [Doctor:] What's he getting crabby about? [speaker004:] The pain [speaker003:] Cos it is [speaker004:] When he's apologizing [Doctor:] Let's get you something to ease the pain and try and get the underside sorted as well. [speaker003:] Cos I says to who did that? Was it the therapist? I see me I've been coming off my and she turned round and says, No. She said, You'd rather, she said [Doctor:] Aye that's right, that's right, aye, but er... sixty six we can do something about that nowadays. [speaker004:] He's actually been there to. He just [speaker003:] because I'm getting older you know what I mean. [Doctor:] Ah you're getting older, away for goodness sake, you're hardly twenty one yet you silly old [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I wish I was twenty one. [Doctor:] Well you never know. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Actually [Doctor:] Ah, ah don't worry about that, okay? [speaker004:] Cheerio. [Doctor:] Right cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Ah there we are,. Right abdominal wound, she's a wee bit... confused. She didn't bother to tell me that she'd only got to call you, right? Erm she wasn't in her nightdress but she only dressed herself, she said [Doctor:] And you [speaker003:] She said she went to buy something herself, she phoned the clinic and the clinic. She's here and says she should be fortnightly.... So I don't know whether you want to go and see her rather than, I could get a doctor to go and see her and phone,. [Doctor:] it's just that I'm never gonna get to up to. [speaker003:] ? [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker003:] erm, first twelve weeks pregnant so should I mark at the bottom when she types. Erm this one. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] No the [speaker003:] Okay. [Doctor:] Hello. [speaker004:] Hiya. [Doctor:] Well is this the day you've to have your head cut off? Your mum? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Me? [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Your mum to get her head cut off? Has she? [speaker004:] Mhm. [Doctor:] You sure? [speaker004:] Mm [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] You'd have a headless mum. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] Mm? [LAUGHTER]... Do you want the doctor? [speaker004:] Na. [speaker003:] Na [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. [] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Now then what what'll we do to your mum? [speaker003:] Can I have a signing off form for the insurance please? [Doctor:] Well would you te [speaker004:] pulse [speaker003:] I'm gonna get in a minute as well, she's just gonna. Just be quiet Stacey, please. [speaker004:] Ob no.... [Doctor:] Are you sure you don't want your head cut off? [speaker004:] Na. [Doctor:] [whispering] Go on. [] [speaker004:] Na. [Doctor:] [whispering] Na. [] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] Na [LAUGHTER] na, na, [] na. [Doctor:] Eh so whe what day do you want to be signed off for then for this? [speaker003:] Just today. [Doctor:] Today right. [speaker003:] Stacey will you show him. Can I have my [speaker004:] I don't [speaker003:] water tablets please Doctor? [Doctor:] Hold on to that for your mum. [speaker003:] And sleeping pills. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] Sleeping [speaker003:] Just but I've got a sore back as well. [speaker004:] Sore back. [speaker003:] It's just cos they [Doctor:] [cough] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Okay? [sigh] She says that to half the town. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] mummy. [Doctor:] I think maybe we'll put you in the bin. [speaker003:] Mm [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Give you mum some peace and quiet. [speaker004:] Not me. [speaker003:] Mm [Doctor:] Does she know him? [speaker004:] I'm going to this. [speaker003:] Have go out and play. [Doctor:] [whispering] go out and play this [] [speaker003:] Mm? [Doctor:] [whispering] time, [] there's nobody else out playing. [speaker003:] Everybody in the block was still sleeping when we [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] left this morning. [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] I know they quite right [LAUGHTER] They can get a long lie. [speaker004:] They're not getting a long lie. [speaker003:] There's wrong with having a bit [Doctor:] All the day all the day's wasted isn't it? [speaker003:] Mhm. [Doctor:] Give that to your mum. That's a girl. The next time you come can I cut your head off? [speaker004:] Bye bye. [Doctor:] Can I cut your head off the next time? Can I? [speaker003:] Maybe [Doctor:] Can I cut your head off the next time? [speaker004:] [scream] [speaker003:] Cheerio. [LAUGHTER] Cheerio. [Doctor:] Cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] ooh well. Right what can I do for you today.... [speaker002:] Er you sent me on I'm gonna go, and I came up before the receptionist. She said something about changing it. [Doctor:] Oh aye right, right that was for your x-rays Robert. Right, aye, that's right.... Starting to show a bit of arthritis, in the knee. That's what begun you your trouble, down there. [speaker002:] Basically like I say it's just when I, when I bend it, [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to extension like, you know. [Doctor:] That's right.... [whispering] Thirteenth [] Is this when your line's due Robert? [speaker002:] Yeah it's roughly about. [Doctor:] Round about now. [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] There we are now. And I think he'll have it in for you. [speaker002:] Right you are, thanks a lot, Doctor. [Doctor:] Okay? Right. Just keep that knee moving as much as you can. [speaker002:] As I say it's when I take the bandage off at night. [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] to the wife, [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] if you get what I mean. [Doctor:] Aye. Listen you you've got you've got to watch, don't let it down, bandage it all the time, Robert. Give yourself an hour or two at night [speaker002:] Aye, aha, aye. [Doctor:] just getting it keeping it moving. [speaker002:] Right you are. [Doctor:] Keep the joint, what's happening is the the the smooth side is starting to get a wee bit rough and if you can keep that rubbing off the other bone it smooths it down. [speaker002:] Great. Aye, aye [Doctor:] Okay? So you're taking a file [speaker002:] Aye, aye. [Doctor:] and filing away a rough edge. If you do it'll keep moving for years and years and years no problem, but if you let the two of them sit [speaker002:] Aye, got you. They'll seize and that. Aye. [Doctor:] They'll they'll weld, they'll weld together Robert and that'll stiffen, stiffen and stiffen as the years go on. [speaker002:] Right you are. [Doctor:] So just keep that slight [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] movement in it. [speaker002:] Cheers. [Doctor:] Okay? Right you are. Okay, cheerio now. [speaker002:] Ta-ta. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Well Mr. [speaker002:] Good morning. [Doctor:] What can I do for you today sir? [speaker002:] [cough] I was down last week... I had er from Saturday er my ear was all clogged up, terrible pain. And I was taking a course of antibiotics. [Doctor:] And your your brains are still a bit dubious. [speaker002:] So [Doctor:] Let's have a look in and see what you've done to the poor old thing. [whispering] You're alright []... Still... still not right, still not right. [speaker002:] awkward between your [Doctor:] And you, you're frightened with your dog all the time? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Doctor:] Are you frightened when you're on the phone? That you can hear yourself [speaker002:] I can hear myself talking all the time. [Doctor:] Quite clearly? [speaker002:] What, on the phone? [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] I haven't really noticed that. No. [Doctor:] You didn't notice any [speaker002:] No. [Doctor:] What what about when you're lying in bed at night? [speaker002:] No, it's just a dullness all the time [Doctor:] Just a dullness all the time. [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] Right. We're gonna get you some special drops to use er there there s is there's still a bit of the eardrum's a wee bit blocked [speaker002:] Mhm. [Doctor:] looking. And we've got to lift that off [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] to get a look underneath the er right.... [speaker002:] I mean I'm finding that you know through it because I'm sort of straining all the time I'm getting terrible headaches and all of the [Doctor:] That's right. [speaker002:] rest of it cos obviously at work you're... straining every minute [Doctor:] That's [speaker002:] of the day. [Doctor:] Let's get, get some of the good old fashioned stuff.... [speaker002:] Would it have came off a cold or something? [Doctor:] It's probably come off a cold, it's er, there there's a tube in there, and the other side.... If you could cut yourself down through the middle, there's you're ears on the outside there and there's a wee channel that goes in [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] and at the bottom of that there's what's called the eardrum. [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] Now in the inside of that it opens out, there's an opening in the bone and that leads down... among other things into a tube down here, now that is connected up further down to the sinuses across [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] here so if you get a a heavy cold, some of this gunge that runs down the back of your throat gets into this tube and [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] blocks up this tube, comes right up into the back of your eardrum, blocks [speaker002:] Yeah. [Doctor:] up that wee bit there, and I think this is what I'm seeing, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Doctor:] is this stuff lying in the bottom there. You can see the level, [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] across the bottom of your eardrum, and it's like standing and you're, [speaker002:] Aha, that's exactly what it feels like, you keep sort of thinking Aha, something like that to help. [Doctor:] If you could only stretch or you know turn your head a certain way it would run out. But I'm almost certain that's what I'm seeing [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] in there. [speaker002:] That that was the initial feeling that I got, it was like a build up of pressure in it, but on the inside and not in the outside [Doctor:] Mhm. That's right, it's a similar to hat you get if you go flying when you've got a cold. [speaker002:] I was gonna say that. Aha. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] I'm almost certain that's what's doing it to you so let's see if we can get through to it with that, [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] get it broken up for you. [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] Now it's a bottle, two drops in the morning, wee bit cotton wool, just to stop it running out, don't put it inside, [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] right? In the morning and then before you go go to bed at night. [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] Okay? [speaker002:] No bother. [Doctor:] Right right. [speaker002:] Bye bye. [Doctor:] Cheerio now. [cough] [cough]. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello [speaker002:] It's me again, with this head of mine. [Doctor:] What have you been doing to your head now? [speaker002:] I've already been up at your [Doctor:] [cough] [speaker002:] You says it was inflammation of the nerves in the [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] . It's not been away at all. [Doctor:] Has it not? [speaker002:] No. [Doctor:] Let's get it x-rayed [speaker002:] Eh. [Doctor:] and see what's going on. Let's see [speaker002:] I thought it was a. [Doctor:] [cough] [speaker002:] I took it off Doctor, and I I take [Doctor:] [cough] [speaker002:] so mind the wee er nerve pills that you gave me mamma. [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Och, I can't remember, Diazepam, took one of them at, whether it's nerves or what [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I don't know. [Doctor:] Ah that's a nerve, that's a nerve getting inflamed up the back there. [speaker002:] Well it took the pain away like that. [Doctor:] Let's get this thing sorted and see. Aye, your stomach and back. [speaker002:] And it had been going, you see me stomach as well. [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I've been burping an awful lot, in my stomach. [Doctor:] What's worrying you? [speaker002:] Och, I don't know.... I haven't the foggiest. [Doctor:] Have [speaker002:] I feel awfully depressed as well. [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] Whether it's this pain that's doing it I know I don't know. [Doctor:] Let's get this head of your x-rayed and see what's going on. [speaker002:] I don't know what's causing it. Just not going away, even the tablets that you gave me, they wasn't even taking it away, it, away like. [Doctor:] The? [speaker002:] Aye,.... [cough]... I mean for a while I think it was maybe my glasses, but these are just new [Doctor:] No. [speaker002:] lenses I've got. [cough]... [Doctor:] Now then. [speaker002:] I thought the change of life would be starting on me as well. [Doctor:] Well this is the other thing that could could be starting. [speaker002:] Ah. [Doctor:] You're a bit young. [speaker002:] Ah but even me ma me mammy she was young and all, [cough] she was thirty seven. [Doctor:] She was just thirty seven, was she? [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] Well [speaker002:] When she started to change. [Doctor:] Yeah.... You're getting near, you're getting near. [speaker002:] Ah slowly but surely. [Doctor:] Well let's get you something to [speaker002:] Can you give me something to do for it Doctor? [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] I don't like to ask you but me mam asked you me to ask you if you could give her something for to give her some energy, she's sleeping all the time now. Why did you give her sleeping pills? [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No, she [Doctor:] Cannae get awake? [speaker002:] She's not been taking them, she's been able to sleep at night but she's sleeping all day and all. [Doctor:] [whispering] Right. [] [speaker002:] Just something for to pep her up a bit. But I I I'm at early in the morning so me mammy says, Why don't you try one of the Diazepam that I've got. I took one and it took it away. [Doctor:] Disappeared? [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] Ah well it's definitely, it's sounds like a, if it's doing it that it sounds like an inflammation on the nerves right enough. [speaker002:] Aye, took it away no bother. [Doctor:] Mhm. Now that's for your mum. [speaker002:] That's my mam. [Doctor:] [whispering] Mrs, so there's no mistake. [] And that's Mrs. [speaker002:] Okay. [Doctor:] And now yourself, er [speaker002:] [cough] [Doctor:] Now this is the stuff er very like Valium [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] and the Diazepam, er but it's nice and gentle it's easier [speaker002:] As long as it doesn't make me sleep. [Doctor:] No your alright, it won't knock you out, this it the thing, this is the great thing about this. And you take this every day, [speaker002:] Every day. [Doctor:] one after your cup of tea in the morning [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] And one after your cup of tea at six o'clock. [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] And you take that over to and get [speaker002:] Any time? [Doctor:] some x-rays. Aye, any time after er I guess half past nine in the morning. [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] Just give it to the lassie and she'll put you through straight away. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Doctor:] Get your x-rays done and they'll send the results over to us in a week. [speaker002:] To just to out-patients that I go to [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] You know the first when you go in. [speaker002:] Ah just as you go in it's just er [Doctor:] First one on the right [speaker002:] Right, aye. [Doctor:] hand side. And they'll check that out for you and we'll see what's happening but it's just in case there's any arthritis or anything like that that's [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] causing it, er or some dry rot setting in. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] nice. [Doctor:] Get it, get it organized, make it [speaker002:] Okey-dokey. [Doctor:] organized dry rot. [speaker002:] Right thanks very much Dr. [Doctor:] Right? Okay. Right but get your mum started on that, get her, [speaker002:] Get her up and going,. [Doctor:] get her going. [LAUGHTER] Right, [] [speaker002:] Many thinks, cheerio. [Doctor:] right cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello what can I do for you today? [speaker002:] Er me birth pill and insurance [Doctor:] Your insurance as well.... There's that.... Eh still the twenty five strength isn't it?... [cough] Excuse me. [6 1] I shouldn't have laid that carpet last night. [6 2] It's loose catching the back of my throat?... Now then which birth pis pills is [speaker002:] Femulen. [Doctor:] Femulen.... No problems with it at all? [speaker002:] No.... [Doctor:] What about your Betnovate, are you needing any? [speaker002:] No, no. It comes and goes that doesn't it? [Doctor:] Aye. Aye, that's true, I mean it just [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] just some days I'll see you and then two or three [speaker002:] Aye and it's disappeared again. [Doctor:] days and it's disappeared, yeah. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Well now what can do for this man? [speaker002:] Oh I went to the, funny. [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker002:] I meant to I mean she's making an appointment for about two weeks after. [Doctor:] Right ah no sign of any damage to any of the bones, erm so it so it's just been the muscles getting tightened up on you. Right what what about the the tablets, did they help? [speaker002:] The painkillers, I'm still getting pain a bit and the nurses [Doctor:] You're still getting pain? [speaker002:] take like hot baths and that. [Doctor:] Mhm. That's right. [speaker002:] to get rid of the pain. [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] [sniff] [Doctor:] Are you due a line today? [speaker002:] What for? [Doctor:] Insurance. [speaker002:] Ah eh no I finish on the twenty fifth. [sniff]... You seem to know how it was, the old muscles, it feels like it's pulling on [Doctor:] Aye, that's right because of, it's all, they're all very close together Dan.... Feels as though it's right through.... [speaker002:] [sniff]... [sniff] [Doctor:] Keep some of these in the house Dan take them relief. [speaker002:] do you want er for the twenty fifth up, [Doctor:] Twenty fifth. [speaker002:] The twenty fifth of this month. Cos finished [Doctor:] That's okay, that's alright, aye, that's okay. Right? Okay Dan? Right, cheerio now. [speaker002:] . [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello. [Doctor:] Hello Mrs what can I do for you today? [speaker003:] It's my stomach again, I feel if I could just get it [Doctor:] so. [speaker003:] took out. See the towels she gave me the last time. There, they were brilliant and I felt as though they were just starting to work when finished. [Doctor:] Oh right, right. [speaker003:] If I could have, I'd be able to get a wee bit, aye, cos I even done a toilet with them, [Doctor:] Right. [speaker003:] cos I feel [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker003:] as though I've had too much water.... I don't same as I did with them.... [Doctor:] No pain passing your water then Jane? [speaker003:] No, it's not sore it's just my stomach all seems to Mm. Mhm. [Doctor:] Across your stomach swelling out, right. That's fine.... Do you still have the burning, this [speaker003:] Mhm.... Ah these are the first ones I've. [Doctor:] Yes, right, as long as they're working, it's half the battle. [speaker003:] Mhm. [Doctor:] box. There you are, Jane. That'll keep you away for a wee while again. [speaker003:] Thanking you. [Doctor:] Go away and look after yourself. [speaker003:] It was, I'd only just. [Doctor:] No that's good, [speaker003:] Mm. [Doctor:] that's good. Well be good [speaker003:] Mm. [Doctor:] to yourself. [speaker003:] I'll try my best. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] Right, Jane [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [speaker003:] Cheerio. [Doctor:] Cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Look look what the wind's look look what the wind's blown in, look what the wind's blown in. They didn't even tell me you were coming. What have we got to do to you today? [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] There's an awful pain in my back Doctor. [Doctor:] A pain in your back? [speaker003:] Aye it's in between my, well in the bottom of my shoulder blades. [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker003:] And it it goes away and then all of a sudden it comes back, and it's re it's really torturing me. [Doctor:] Right let's have a wee look here and see if we can make it sore. What side? [speaker003:] , down there, down there, [Doctor:] Down down in down [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] in that corner there? [speaker003:] Aye, right there, aye. [Doctor:] Aye, beauty, oh I'm getting good at that, you see, it's all these years of practice I've had. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]. [Doctor:] See she's enjoying that.... That's a better bit isn't it? [speaker003:] Aye, oh he loves that doesn't he? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] That's it. [Doctor:] What about as far round as that high, nothing as far round here? [speaker003:] No nothing no. [Doctor:] Nothing up there? [speaker003:] No, and a wee bit there. [Doctor:] I'm liking this, I'm liking this. What about there? And there? [speaker003:] Aye right there, aye. [Doctor:] Right. We've got it coming up that bit there, right. [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] Right up through there, and tell me if I do that oh? [speaker003:] Aye right there at to. [Doctor:] She enjoyed that. Will I do it on the other side? [speaker003:] No, don't bother. [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] Aha. I'm feeling deprived this morning. I'm feeling deprived. [speaker003:] What [Doctor:] What er what brought that on Marie, any idea? [speaker003:] Erm I haven't been bothered with it for a couple of months now Doctor, and [speaker002:] thought it was an ulcer, didn't you Marie? [speaker003:] Oh I always thought it was my ulcer that was causing it, you know, so I was, every time I took it I was taking an extra Samtack [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker003:] And and [Doctor:] Wasn't making any difference. [speaker003:] And I tell you when I really lying on my [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker003:] side to go you know to go to sleep at night, [Doctor:] That's right. [speaker003:] that's when I feel [Doctor:] That's right. Right. Do you want her turned into a human being again? [speaker002:] I do. [Doctor:] Just say the word and [speaker003:] time to give me a wee shot at my blood pressure as well Doctor. [Doctor:] Right. [speaker003:] Cos it's months before I had the time. [Doctor:] never get to Heaven. You'll never got to Heaven.... Made a shocking mess of that. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Is this is this you wanting a pump? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] That's what I said. [] [speaker003:] for the daughter, she's and she cannae carry it off, and whether she [Doctor:] It's a good job it's not you. [LAUGHTER] I'd be [speaker003:] If it was me I'd be I'd need a miracle. [Doctor:] I'd be sending for the police. That's what I'd be doing. [speaker003:] Aye, so would I be. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Well that's that's for the. [speaker002:] That's the stuff alright. [Doctor:] That's that's the stuff. it's got a green card in it and it's got enough stuff to last you until [speaker002:] Will that be alright by aye? [speaker003:] I actually and sometimes I come right up. [Doctor:] That's right, right up there and right up, that's right. [speaker003:] that's right, aye. [Doctor:] You see, you'd think I knew about these things wouldn't you, you'd think I knew about these things. your muscles. Just go on Just the one. [speaker003:] No the two. [Doctor:] Just the one. [speaker003:] Just the one? [Doctor:] Just the one. [speaker003:] I've got the two afternoon. [Doctor:] Just the one then. Don't you get up. [speaker002:] Is he still putting up with you? [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] Is he? Just [speaker003:] it's just near there. [Doctor:] just.... Now then hold on to that, that's enough.... [whispering] []... [speaker003:] [cough]... policies away, that's alright, it looks as if it's normal. [speaker002:] Oh well wouldn't even bother dusting them. [speaker003:] Oh I'm being got at, aren't I? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] Good.... at all, not bad at all for somebody that age. [speaker003:] That age. [speaker002:] on Thursday. [Doctor:] She had a birthday? [speaker002:] I'm forty seven. [Doctor:] I thought you said she, I thought you were stopping having birthdays. [speaker003:] Och I stopped when I were twenty one. [Doctor:] Aha. And is she twenty one again? [speaker003:] to be twenty one again, aha. [Doctor:] How many times is that? [speaker003:] Four times now. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] tablets please? [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Doctor:] Your Warfarin, [speaker003:] Warfarin, aye, please. [Doctor:] let's see now ans aspirin. [speaker003:] Aspirin's still to [Doctor:] Sounded like seven fifty or something? [speaker003:] Seventy five. [Doctor:] Seventy five. Oh what him he's threatening to do away with you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Do away with you, Marie. [speaker003:] hundreds. [Doctor:] How is your mum? [speaker003:] Ah she's. Thanks a lot. [Doctor:] Thanks a lot.... [speaker003:] And as for Jackie's. [Doctor:] The paracetamol is that the dissolving ones? [speaker003:] No from the swallowing. [Doctor:] It's the ones for swallowing, right. [speaker002:] Have you tried the dissolving ones by the way? [speaker003:] No. I've never tried them, no. [Doctor:] Want to try [speaker003:] I dissolve my ha aspro though. [Doctor:] Could use you sometimes you say they kind of, [speaker003:] Aye catching my throat, aye. [Doctor:] Well then. I mean they're the same, the same [speaker002:] The same as your other. [Doctor:] exactly the same thing. they look slightly bigger, but I mean it's only because the extra stuff's in it for it to dissolve in. [speaker003:] Dissolve in. [Doctor:] So so that's I'll give you some of them this time [speaker003:] Aye, [Doctor:] and see how you get on. And if you feel they're better then fine, we'll get that for you. No bother at all, no bother at all.... Now then, birth pill. Aye, which? [speaker003:] I've got them there I cannae see it. [Doctor:] Which one's that? [speaker003:] I have to write it down. [Doctor:] Oh, right.... Still in Road? [speaker003:] No she's gone to her own house [speaker002:] No er. [speaker003:] Doctor. I forgot to put the change in the, get it in, she's moved to the other right enough. Er sixty three Lodge, [speaker002:] Sixty Towers, by the Lodge. [speaker003:] Sixty, oh not [Doctor:] Mhm oh aye. [speaker003:] It's not, it's Lodge. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] Towers. Towers. [Doctor:] Towers? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Doctor:] Towers, that's Aha. [speaker002:] Only moved there last month or so Doctor, [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I don't think she's wanting to change you anyway, I think she's keeping you on. [Doctor:] Oh, she might have trouble, she might have trouble cos the Health Board have changed all the regulations. [speaker003:] Oh tell them. [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker003:] Aye, aye. [speaker002:] What does she do now then Doctor? [Doctor:] the best thing to do, check with the Health Board, they'll the only other way is to go a certain distance into nowadays [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] And if it's er if it's past the bit the Health Board allow then she should [speaker003:] She's right behind it isn't it, the Health Centre. Where where she's got her flat. [Doctor:] Is that right, oh well she [speaker003:] Aye, she's right behind the centre. [Doctor:] No chance, [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] no chance. The this the [speaker002:] Because she's near that? [Doctor:] No, the only other one's [speaker002:] [cough] sort of a boundary, sort of a boundary. Ah right, right. [Doctor:] And over the level crossing or past the [cough] [speaker002:] Over the level, right, so we're talking by? [Doctor:] Aye past [speaker002:] Past Yeah. [Doctor:] Go that way so if she goes into the Hea the Health Centre and says, you know that she's from Hill [speaker002:] And she's changing address [Doctor:] And she want's to change over cos she's moved into that bit of the town, they'll they'll get her sorted out. [cough] [speaker002:] They'll have the [Doctor:] Get here a special form to fill in. [speaker002:] Right. [Doctor:] They'll have the forms here, she doesn't need to take anything with her, okey-doke? [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] Just just says to them that she's moved. Watch him, seven hundred and fifty, [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] just you watch him. Aye then, okay, [speaker003:] After I'm giving him a tablet as well. [Doctor:] you're gonna sleep at night. Who was it that was asleep too long? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] You're right, he's sleeping too long. I'll get the door. [speaker003:] Right Dr. [Doctor:] There we are. [speaker003:] Right cheerio Doctor. [Doctor:] Right Okay, right, cheerio mate. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Okay, just past sorry Doctor. [Doctor:] Right. Ah good morning. [speaker003:] Good morning. [Doctor:] Morning sir. What can [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] I do for you today Mr? [speaker003:] Well I got that sore arm.... And [Doctor:] Right, right. [speaker003:] remember you said it would be a rheumatic, [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker003:] well I went to physio. [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker003:] And er I went six times and it never made any bloody difference. [Doctor:] Oh. [speaker003:] So he came to the conclusion that I'd torn a muscle. [Doctor:] Oh right. [speaker003:] So I was wondering, can I get it x-rayed? [Doctor:] Yes, sure. [speaker003:] Because I'll tell you why, Doc, I mean [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker003:] it doesn't bother me, the time it I've pain, until I hit a wrong shot at golf. Cripes I could've [Doctor:] bad once. [speaker003:] No could feel it. [Doctor:] As bad as that right. Let's get that. [speaker003:] And and I was I was in in the grocery [LAUGHTER] on Monday morning but erm we were go through a pack of you know. [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker003:] And of course they go up here beautiful and I was going to take this apple and they're all gonna fall and I got to that, Jesus it just about. [Doctor:] Right. [speaker003:] So I just doesn't like, [Doctor:] That's fine [speaker003:] and I'm [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and I'm in a big competition on the twenty eighth [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] It's. [] Oh. [Doctor:] We can't have that, [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] we can't have that. That's not a good sign. [speaker003:] so my wife she fell on on on Sunday again. I'm having an awful problem to herself. She was up at er what do you call, no yesterday, and she, you know she goes to the clinic then, [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker003:] That's just for her blood. But they they think that she's got an absolute problem. [Doctor:] Oh she's [speaker003:] Oh. [Doctor:] got a problem alright. [speaker003:] Cos she's covered in that rash always, you remember you saw it once before? [Doctor:] That's right. [speaker003:] I can't believe that's right. And one one day you know it's flared up and the next day it's dead, but they say it's better coming out to the surface. [Doctor:] Yes. Er. Is it still up this arm mostly? [speaker003:] The right one? [Doctor:] Aha. Right from here. [speaker003:] It's there. [Doctor:] Right from here. [speaker003:] Ah. [Doctor:] Up to the shoulder. [speaker003:] Well it does when I when I hit the thing, but but that's when it gets when I've got to work it. Aye. [Doctor:] That's [speaker003:] Ah that's what they thought, and I cannae in a long. [Doctor:] No. [speaker003:] you know he was honest about it, [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker003:] it's just that I think... that all happened with my electric going for running away. [Doctor:] Oh I'll tell my wife about that and that'll that'll that'll put put a stop to that piece of nonsense. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] It did, I tried to save it and the damn thing came off, you know the the [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] mhm. [speaker003:] and it was on full power and I tried to save it after this thing came off. Aye, it seems I'd have been better letting it run on the blooming thing.... And otherwise I mean there's nothing wrong, nothing. And I cannae let it interfere with my golf, can I? [Doctor:] No. You've cer got to get things in perspective I mean that [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] It's not, it's not only that Doctor it's in your mind, you know you [Doctor:] That's right, yeah. You've always [speaker003:] you've got to, you've got to be at it all the time. [Doctor:] You're always trying to protect it. [speaker003:] Ah, are you hitting the wee ball yourself? [Doctor:] Not yet this year, [speaker003:] No? [Doctor:] not yet, no. I've well I've been to er [speaker003:] I've been on the Hill twice this year, so. [Doctor:] Have you? [speaker003:] Oh aye, I like Hill. I really like it. [Doctor:] I've been on it, er, I've had two five holes. [speaker003:] Oh is that all? [Doctor:] Yeah. That's all I've had so far, [speaker003:] Mm. [Doctor:] so far. Now do you know where this x-ray place is, Alan? [speaker003:] It's down at the back, not. [Doctor:] No no [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] no no. [speaker003:] [sneeze] [Doctor:] I'll just I'll just draw it, draw it out for you. You know the far end of? [speaker003:] Aye, I've taken my wife there before. There's a wee hospital on the left. [Doctor:] Union, union, yes. [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] On the road between and. [speaker003:] That's right [Doctor:] There's the park in there, [speaker003:] Aye. [Doctor:] up the hill from the park there's a roundabout, [speaker003:] Yeah. [Doctor:] a roundabout there. [speaker003:] And you go past it and then turn right, no. [Doctor:] No, no no, no no. Before you reach it, there's a street in there, just before you reach it. There there are houses [speaker003:] Oh I know, there's a big garage on the left hand side at that rounda [Doctor:] There's a big garage in there. [speaker003:] Aye I know. Doctor I've been there. Mhm, yeah. [Doctor:] Big garage in there. Aha, you've been there, garage there, in the street, up here, [speaker003:] Mhm. [Doctor:] in through the gate, [speaker003:] Right. [Doctor:] and it's the building, first building on your right hand side. Just go [speaker003:] Great and I [Doctor:] in there, give that to the girl, she'll put you through more or less right away [speaker003:] Yes. Aye I took my wife. When am I going? [Doctor:] for your x-ray and we'll get that to Anytime. [speaker003:] Oh just anytime? [Doctor:] Anytime. Yes, aye, it's all changed, it's all changed. [speaker003:] I can go [Doctor:] You can go anytime after I think it's nine fifteen or nine thirty in the morning. [speaker003:] Oh great. [Doctor:] Up till four o'clock in the afternoon. [speaker003:] Oh great, Doctor, thanks. [Doctor:] So we'll get that checked out for you Alan and we'll [speaker003:] Just just to see cos as I say I just can't believe it. [Doctor:] Twenty five per cent of your winnings. [speaker003:] Right, right, it's three days at, all expenses if I win here at. [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker003:] It's the Scottish erm er er the Scottish er insurance company that runs it, for the whole of Britain. So aye and so we've got thirty eight guys to beat down here, and er three days at [Doctor:] At the big house. [speaker003:] And I'm in the final there. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] Right, Alan. [speaker003:] Thanks a lot, [Doctor:] Okay, sir, bye now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Come in, hello. [speaker002:] Hello. [Doctor:] Well what can I do for this lady today? [speaker002:] No, it's just me this time. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Yourself? [speaker002:] It's just my womb Doctor. actually going into now on, in July. [Doctor:] Oh they've got you organized. [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] But not to do with my back. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] What what this, what they gonna do to you? [speaker002:] To get a, to get a laparoscopy and a D and C. [Doctor:] Oh right, [whispering] right [].... Who is this? [speaker002:] It'll be Dr. [Doctor:] Dr, Dr. [speaker002:] Aha. [Doctor:] There you are Jean, that'll keep you right. Keep you out of mischief for a wee while again. [speaker002:] Anyway, right thanks now. [Doctor:] Right, okay,che cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Come in, good morning. Hello, well what's your mum been doing to you this morning? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]. Well she's just after the [Doctor:] Freeze her, freeze her tongue. [speaker002:] having the flu, near a fortnight ago now, she's on these pills and she's as bad as ever, and not sleeping again. She's finished them now, she [Doctor:] She's finished those. Let's have a look and see what you've one to your your poor old inside. [speaker002:] [cough] Dearie me. [Doctor:] Driving your mother up the wall? Are you? Has your mum been bad to you? No? Have a wee look at your nose first.... [whispering] better. []... Throat now.... stick your tongue right the way out now. [speaker004:] [cough] [Doctor:] Yes. [whispering] Have you got any swollen glands in your neck? Yes, they're up. [] Okay? [speaker004:] Mm [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] It's [speaker002:] It's taking awful long Doctor,. [Doctor:] Oh well it's, she's got sinus after this flu. It's er just what's been happening to a lot of folk, sinus trouble. Do you like nice medicine or do you prefer those? [speaker004:] [whispering] Don't know. [] [Doctor:] You're not bothered? [speaker002:] She'll say that and then give you the [Doctor:] horrible stuff. [speaker002:] in a bottle. [Doctor:] Er I can put it in, in a bottle or I can give you tablets. [speaker004:] In tablets. [Doctor:] You prefer tablets alright then.... Now this is this quite a common thing after the flu to get a problem. Most times it's both but it's mainly the the left hand side with Jenny. The skin from here's swollen right [speaker002:] Mhm. [Doctor:] across and it's touching that hole in the middle and she's getting all blocked up and the stuff's running all the way down the back of your throat, that right? And you're coughing all night, keeping everybody awake? [speaker002:] Aye, she doesn't bother but us in the next room, ah, bother us. [Doctor:] Oh right, right, just so it's just mum and dad we're. [speaker002:] ... Oh I need some money. [Doctor:] [sigh] I want to believe it.... Now one of these in the morning and one at tea time. Twice a day, for the next week.... [whispering] One, two, three, four. [] Tell your mum she could be kinder to you, she's got to for [speaker002:] even though she's already. [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] Right oh, okay, bye Mrs, [speaker002:] Right [Doctor:] cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Hello, what's that, you been, have you been writing letters? [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] That for me, thanks very much, that's nice, oh can I have that as well Natalie? Well now, what have you been doing to your eyes? [speaker002:] She's been screaming all ear. [speaker003:] Eh. Eh. in my ear. [Doctor:] Your ear? What, is that that ear sore? Is it? [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] No? [speaker002:] It's this one. [Doctor:] Is it the other one? Let's have a wee look in with my torch. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] Sit on your Gran's knee. [speaker002:] Come on sweet. [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] Just a min just [speaker002:] Come on he's gonna look in my eye. [speaker003:] No, no. [Doctor:] Look. [speaker002:] Natalie, [Doctor:] Look. [speaker003:] [distressed child noises throughout the next few exchanges] [speaker002:] it's gonna look in my eye. [Doctor:] Look [speaker002:] Oh look, this is where we're getting.... Oh look Natalie. Behave, come on. [Doctor:] Natalie look, look. [speaker002:] Oh [Doctor:] Look, it's just a wee light. [speaker002:] Look at the wee light. [Doctor:] Look it's just a wee light. It's not, it's not gonna be sore for... sit up. [speaker002:] Come up and sit on your Gran's knee for a wee while. Oh Jamie, Jamie. [Doctor:] That's it, just a wee while, we're not, we're not gonna you. That's a wee girl. That's it.... Yeah, you've got a very, that's it. All done. [speaker002:] That's it. [Doctor:] It's all done. You were crying, you were just getting on weren't you, you were just getting on? You were just getting on? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] You were just getting on, weren't you? You were just getting on. [speaker002:] She thought I was coming up with my eye. [Doctor:] Aha.... What about your Grannie, we'll give your Gran some nice medicine or some nasty medicine? [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] No? [LAUGHTER] Would you like some nice medicine? [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] Would you not? [speaker003:] Gran. [Doctor:] Your Gran, right. What's your Gran's name? Will we give her nice medicine or nasty medicine? Nasty medicine? [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh thank you very much Natalie, her eyes [Doctor:] Yes, aye, it's the same. I think she's got trouble with her sinus in here, and it's blocked the tube [speaker002:] Aye. [Doctor:] here and here and that's where the trouble's coming from. [speaker003:] Just see just see wee black things in my eye. [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker002:] Wee black yeah. [Doctor:] Wee black things, that's right. That's right. [speaker002:] Oh she was screaming this morning. [Doctor:] Ear drum instead of being straight up and down like that, it's pushed a way out, [speaker002:] Ah. [Doctor:] it's stretched, squeezing it from the inside. [speaker002:] And her mummy and daddy's away at work, and I said, If I leave it till [Doctor:] [whispering] Hey are they? [] Making lots of pennies for you? [speaker002:] Well they now. [Doctor:] Oh aye. [speaker002:] He was made redundant. [Doctor:] Now then.... One two three, she's what, she's four now? [speaker002:] Four. [speaker003:] I see the. [Doctor:] That's the bad one, he's always in a bad mood isn't he? He's [speaker003:] That one. [Doctor:] No. Can you see Thomas? [speaker002:] Where's Thomas the Tank? [Doctor:] No, that's [speaker002:] That's [Doctor:] not Thomas the Tank Engine at all, you're just kidding me on. No, [speaker002:] No. [Doctor:] no. [speaker002:] I cannae see it either. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Where is he? Come on, no,. Look, here, can you see this, look, one two three, up you go. [speaker002:] Oh yes at the very top. [Doctor:] Right at the top, look, right at the [speaker002:] Natalie. [Doctor:] top, look. [speaker002:] Nat, that's him. [Doctor:] Yeah, that's Thomas, you silly thing. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] That's the wee cookie. Who's a silly? Who's a silly? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right thanks very much. [Doctor:] Right, okay, right. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] I'll come and tickle you again. [speaker003:] No. [Doctor:] Oh, [speaker002:] Say, Bye. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Come on, [Doctor:] And here I come to get you. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Right, okay Mrs. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Come in, come in, come in. [speaker002:] nice to see you. [Doctor:] Well what can we do for you today? [speaker002:] Oh, I've a... infection in my gum Dr. [Doctor:] In your gum? [speaker002:] Up here. [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker002:] tablets and noticed that, I don't know,. [Doctor:] Let's have a look and see what they've done to you.... Aye, the Sofradex not doing very much for that is it? [speaker002:] No, I've never taken them, I've just, I stopped taking them. [Doctor:] Aye, I don't think they're doing very much, do you. [speaker002:] You see I've had it here, I take it quite often, I take [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] sores, Dr gave me these to clear them, and it does clear them up. [Doctor:] Eventually. [speaker002:] Eventually, [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] but I was getting bacteria and germ, you know, [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I'd rather so I so I put a description in, asked for a description yesterday, [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] cos that would give the rest of my [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] my things. So she said it wouldn't be done till tomorrow morning, but I need something, [Doctor:] Right. [speaker002:] And I've been up till, I've been paining me all night Doctor, [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] I'm just wondering if it's my teeth or that it's just my blood that's doing it. [Doctor:] I think I think it might be s the the teeth, it'd be worth getting the er dentist to have a wee look at your your plate, [speaker002:] Mhm. [Doctor:] because there might be a wee rough [speaker002:] It seems to be catching up here. [Doctor:] Aye, might be a wee rough bit in [speaker002:] It was all rubbing, and really painful all night Dr. And will I take these Sofradex? [Doctor:] Yes, yes, keep on with those just now. And [speaker002:] I was going to take them, I was going to take them, and I said, Oh I'd better, I'd better see Dr first. [Doctor:] Aye, get Daktarin... erm... gel... and put that on [speaker002:] Mhm. [Doctor:] three times a day... between meals. [speaker002:] Do I just spread it on my plate, you know? [Doctor:] Aye, just a wee drop on your [speaker002:] A wee drop, on [Doctor:] on your finger [speaker002:] and just cotton bud it and rub it? [Doctor:] and and rub it round top of your plate, just put straight from [speaker002:] Awfully painful. [Doctor:] Oh aye because you're right into the flesh. [speaker002:] It is. [Doctor:] Right into the flesh. [speaker002:] Do I take these as they're prescribed here Doctor? [Doctor:] Yes, aye, two... fou one or two four times a day. Yes, one four times a day. Fine, yeah, aye. [speaker002:] Just take, just take, I was gonna take them, I says, I couldn't stand the pain any longer, [Doctor:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it really was, put me off food and everything Dr. [Doctor:] Aye, oh yes, when you can't, when you can't eat it's not much fun. Here we are now. And how's, how's young Dr doing, is he? Dr, is he doing alright? [speaker002:] haven't seen him, it's Dr I think that's attended me the last time. [Doctor:] Aye. [speaker002:] I haven't seen him, I think I've doc seen Dr once. [Doctor:] It was a wee, it's it was last year when you saw him I think, Dr [speaker002:] No. [Doctor:] , was it not? [speaker002:] No because I got my gallbladder out in January. [Doctor:] Aye. It's it was before [speaker002:] So [Doctor:] that that you'd seen him. [speaker002:] Aye. Seen that much [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] That looks like Dr. [speaker002:] Ah I seen. [Doctor:] That's right. Aye, it was November, [speaker002:] November. [Doctor:] the last time you saw Dr [speaker002:] Oh it was Aye, well I seen him, He came up to see me when I was in, [Doctor:] Mhm. [speaker002:] when I was in getting my gall bladder removed. [Doctor:] It's turned you into a human being yet? [speaker002:] Oh [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] [LAUGHTER] No. [speaker002:] Will I just pout the gel on or [Doctor:] Yes. [speaker002:] can I? [Doctor:] Just just put the gel, don't don't wash your mouth out with anything. [speaker002:] No, I was using some, I was washing with a mouthwash in the morning. [Doctor:] No, [speaker002:] Oraldene. [Doctor:] no. [speaker002:] No? [Doctor:] No. Leave it, leave it alone, [speaker002:] Leave it? [Doctor:] leave it alone. Use your Yes, aye, just use your gel and your your er Sofradex tablets, yeah [speaker002:] sofradex tablets, just take what's in the [Doctor:] just take what's. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I seen Dr, Monday, he was a clinic for before I went beck, a week on Friday for injections. [Doctor:] Again? [speaker002:] Again. [Doctor:] Absolutely. In the bin. That's the best place for it. [speaker002:] took him two reactions, [Doctor:] Aha. [speaker002:] to get platelet, to get platelets, two reactions. I must have screamed. [LAUGHTER] [Doctor:] Away and yourself. Right [speaker002:] Thanks very much Doctor, thank you. [Doctor:] Bye Mrs, cheerio now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Tape number three in conversation with Mr John. You were mentioning the the old coffin route from.... Starting at, you said. [John:] Starting at a hundred and ninety. [speaker003:] On the one inch, map. [John:] Hundred and ninety.... Up by that loch. [speaker003:] Now that's near... Loch.... [John:] That's it. Watch me now. [speaker003:] Ah can you mark it in maybe? [John:] That's it. [speaker003:] I see, up to the Glen. [John:] That's right, but it doesn't go as far as the Glen, [speaker003:] Right. [John:] it keeps this side of the Glen, [speaker003:] To the side. [John:] And then in like that. [speaker003:] Mhm. [John:] Follow me? [speaker003:] Yes.... I'll just have a shot at pencilling that in.... Yes it's a very [John:] Its near it anyway. [speaker003:] a windy track. [John:] It's a, oh yes a windy track. Not the easiest ways. [speaker003:] The people who undertook such a [John:] It's more or less the hard ground. [speaker003:] Aha, the ground very much? [John:] And there was and there was cairns where they used to rest the the coffin, cairns here and there along the route. [speaker003:] Was there? [John:] Where they used to rest the the coffin for a m m and have a dram and a piece of cheese or some biscuits. I'd read about, I read erm read in erm some paper or other not so very long ago, about erm a funeral... and the... that was going along the road of course,... and they came to a to a erm hotel and they were och, they were going for miles and miles and miles and they went into this hotel and the they party the funeral party went into the hotel and had a good few drinks and they were well away when they came out and they they they went away without the coffin, for two miles, two miles before they discovered that they didn't have the coffin. They had to go back ag go back again for the coffin. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] The people who undertook er following that route, through such a an entanglement of lochans and turns, would have had to have know their directions very well otherwise [John:] Yeah. [speaker003:] they could have been lost quite easily. And do you know think that these cairns possibly were there to guide them as mu as much as anything? [John:] Oh well they they knew the road, these men knew knew the road very well, and er they knew the [speaker003:] Area. [John:] area, they could tell by the hills, they could tell the way. I came from m my from, across the hill with my father when I was sixteen, at night. [speaker003:] At night? [John:] At night. But it was a lovely moonlit night and we didn't leave, it was about eight o'clock at night when we left. We were at at there, and I went with er with my father er on a Friday and we came back that night. [speaker003:] Now that must be a good, what would you say, seven miles at least in one direction? [John:] Well it it would be something like that,so something like [speaker003:] At least. [John:] seven miles. [speaker003:] Easily. [John:] And... Well it would, it was two good hours, to walk across the erm.... Take you two hours anyway. That was... well it's wasn't quite a mile and a quarter. [speaker003:] And this was just a beaten track? [John:] Oh just a beaten track. [speaker003:] Whereas the other one in Glen was an actual made track? [John:] Well I'll tell you a good story about that, to s, to let you see that it was a well beaten track. And it was just... the the the people were often walking along this track, anyway there was a man,... there was erm,... was a, there was... a man and a woman walked over to and walked back again at night, well in the the even, evening anyway. And the woman lost her brooch on the way back and she saw this man next morning, he was a policeman in, and he he was too fond of the drink,a and he he was on, he was a railway policeman, and he fell onto the rails, when the train was coming, nobody knows how he how he how he er he lost one arm er about there and the other one about there, both arms but he he survived it. Nobody knows how he he how the... how his head wasn't bashed. But anyway... this woman that lost the brooch, she me she saw this man, without the hands going across the hill to, she asked him where he was going, and he said, I'm going to to, across the hill. Are you coming? No, she said, I've been there yesterday, but er I lost a brooch, and I wish you would be on the look out for it. Did you keep the track all the way? he said. Yes, all the way. Anyway this man without the arms, he went to and he had er he had er a pocket outside his jacket here, and he he erm got the brooch... and he... called on the at the house where this woman was and he says, Put your hand into that pocket, he said, and she puts her hand in, Oh, she say, she says, You've got the brooch. Yeah, yeah, he says, I think that'll be yours. But how did... the, what was puzzling a lot of people how did he manage to get it off the ground and into his pocket. [speaker003:] By his teeth? [John:] He must he must erm stooped down on his knees and caught it in his mouth and and got it into his pocket some way or another. [speaker003:] Mm, but both these people... came from? [John:] Yes, both of them. [speaker003:] And that's a, an incredible tale. [John:] It is, right enough. [speaker003:] Because it... it really bears out what you were saying that the... there was a track which [John:] Well it it erm, it shows you that there was a track. [speaker003:] Because no one could have found that brooch if it had just been a wilderness. [John:] No, no, no, no. If you had been any any where else on the hill you'd have, wouldn't have a chance cos you couldn't, you couldn't follow the track... that they they di they followed the day before. [speaker003:] And that was the lady's son involved who told you this? [John:] That's right. [speaker003:] Roughly when do you think it happened, that incident with the brooch? [John:] Pardon? [speaker003:] When in time did it occur? [John:] That's right. [speaker003:] Aha, can you put a date on it though? Was it the, before the Great War, during the [John:] Oh yes I think so. Think [speaker003:] before the [John:] I think it as before the War but I'm not quite sure mind either, could have been after the War. [speaker003:] That's the first War? [John:] I know the lady, oh yes first War, I know the lady was going to after the War, the man could have been.... Very possible. [speaker003:] Do you have any reminiscences of... the the Great War and the way it affected, were many of the men called up to to serve from the area? [John:] Well all the young they were, they were either called up or they vol volunteered. [speaker003:] And did you see vessels in the area, because you yourself would be too young were you not? [John:] N well I was I was erm... I would have been called up... in another two months after the War was over, if the War had continued... I would have been eighteen in in that in the following January. [speaker003:] Do you recall seeing any ships that were involved in... the War coming by,? [John:] Well the the some of the soldiers and sailors used to walk from all the way home to or or. The snow was that heavy that no traffic, nothing could move. They were walking [speaker003:] Er about [John:] all that distance. [speaker003:] And there weren't really proper roads? [John:] The road the roads were there alright but they were [speaker003:] Snowed. [John:] covered over with sn with a few feet of snow.... There was no snow ploughs in those days, it was all hand cut if they were cutting drifts it was manual labour. [speaker003:] Spade? [John:] Spade. [speaker003:] Were you badly affect in the, by winters? [John:] Well we had we had a lot of snow in those days, far more than than there's been since then. The seasons seem to have changed. [speaker003:] Now, how did these people you mentioned before make this track at, it was a better made track, you said it wasn't just a beaten [John:] Well from inside the inside the forest fence [speaker003:] Aha. [John:] it's there it started and the rest of it was all a beaten track like what was going to. [speaker003:] If, so from the the with Loch down towards it was a beaten track? [John:] That's right. [speaker003:] But from the towards it was a proper track? [John:] That's right, proper track. [speaker003:] Now how did they in those days make... the the track? [John:] Well there'd be be a squad of men working there, paid by the estate. [speaker003:] And use any materials that were found near by. [John:] And they they wouldn't be getting the money they're getting today. [speaker003:] Aha. [John:] If they they they would, if there was a gaffer there he would be getting a shilling a day and the labourers would be getting ninepence or something,n ninepence a day. [speaker003:] and it would be hard work too. [John:] Perhaps perhaps a pound or two of. These were the conditions then.... That's how they had so much money, all these landlords in those days. There were no taxing.... And any servants they had were low low were very lowly paid.... I'll tell you a story about erm... erm... a girl from, she was on service in with erm... Sir John, Sir John and Lady. There was a lodge there in... in the in the village.... And this day Lady had some letters to post in the early morning, she wanted them away, on the mails in the early morning. And she told this maid to go with the letters to post them. And it was going, but she doing something and she the Lady seen her going through a corridor and she said to her, Run Annie run. No my lady I never run for d anybody and I'm not going to run for you. [LAUGHTER]... She was a good maid though.... and she didn't get the sack. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Er apologies for er... er apologies for absence. [John:] Er the only... formal apology I er have is from Judith, we are of course er as yet still missing er Malcolm and Liz. [speaker001:] . [John:] The Liz is just arriving, actually. [speaker001:] Is she? [John:] Oh good. Yes, they were parking just now. [speaker001:] Oh yes.... [LAUGHTER].... [Greg:] Right. Er. [speaker001:] Excuse. [Greg:] We will we will wait for Liz. [John:] . C come in.... [speaker001:] . [John:] Please feel free to speak up. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Pauline:] I haven't eaten yet. [John:] It's no use talking to that, because [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER] I haven't eaten yet. [] [John:] Don't shout too loud because you get... somebody'll have to listen to all this. [Pauline:] Turn it off and start again. [Greg:] Evening Liz. [Malcolm:] Hello. [Pauline:] Start again. [Greg:] I'm afraid we've nicked the comfy seats. Sorry about that. [Malcolm:] O o over here? [John:] Ei either of those, yes [Malcolm:] Right. [John:] I'm sorry we er... the other ones have been taken. [Greg:] You haven't missed anything at all. [Malcolm:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] The minutes of the meeting held on the first [speaker001:] . [Greg:] of May nineteen ninety three.... [John:] Er... sorry.... [reading] Present secreta chairman, secretary, Julia, Judith. Apologies were received from Phil, Malcolm, John and Pauline. Er minutes of the meeting held on the tenth of January were read and approved. The secretary reported that the charge for the Great Hall for the fourth of November nineteen ninety two was thirty pounds, that but that in future the charge will be forty pounds. It was noted that on two occasions members of the committee collected subscriptions in the treasurer's absence. It was also noted that Isobel has rejoined the orchestra for two rehearsals. A G M fifth of May, the draft reports of the treasurer and secretary were noted. It was agreed that the new committee should be recommended to appoint a press secretary. Judith and Julia will discuss with Malcolm the duties of the treasurer. Concert held at School on twenty fourth of March, this was agreed to have been successful.... [cough] Concert to be held in Holy Trinity Church on tenth of July, the conditions listed in the Reverend Mark 's letter were noted. John 's offer to prepare a programme was accepted with pleasure. It was agreed that the rehearsal will be at four o'clock and... the concert at seven thirty, allowing sufficient time for a picnic in between. [] [speaker001:] [cough]. [John:] [reading] The programme may include some or all of the following, Strauss Pizzicato Polka, Souza Stars and Stripes, Schubert Overture in B Flat, Davis Solemn Melody, Elgar Minuet, Vaughan Williams Household Music, Haydn Horn Signal Symphony, Bach Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring. John has offered to play Debussy's Petite Suite for two pianos, other solos may include piano trio [] [Greg:] [LAUGHTER] Should be a good trick if he can do it [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [reading] [LAUGHTER] the will show the Reverend Mark [] [] [speaker001:] . [John:] [reading] a draft programme for his approval as soon as it is available. Concert to be held in the Great Hall on third of November. The following items may be included in the programme. Vivaldi Guitar Concerto, Rossini William Tell Ballet Music, Mozart Flute Concerto Number two, songs by Heather, a wind quintet. The chairman will ask Jimmy if he would like to play a cello concerto, and the secretary will ask Malcolm if he would like to play the. Carols for Everyone, eighteenth of December nineteen ninety three. The secretary will again ask the to confirm that they are willing to sell tickets. He will also contact the Boys' Brigade, to see if they'd be prepared to play, and S O S transport international, to obtain more information. W I piano, it was noted that the W I are now trying to replace the hall piano. Any other business, it was agreed that the new committee should be asked to consider the possibility of holding meetings after rehearsals rather than on Saturday or Sunday afternoons. The meeting closed at four O three P M. []... [speaker001:] Er.... [sniff]. [John:] I think you're meant to ask if that's a true record. Not that any of us was Yes. here, very much. So [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Yeah, well I I would say that was a very true record, I was here, I think that's a [Pauline:] Yeah. [John:] true record. [Greg:] I wasn't. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] You weren't here. [Greg:] Tt. Right, thank you Mr Secretary. Matters arising.... Several things come [LAUGHTER] straight to mind []. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Do do you want to take them, or or shall I remind you of what the headings were? [Greg:] Er y erm... well the three things I've got down here, piano, I I notice the piano's arrived. Er which is very good. Is there only one key? [John:] Mhm. [Greg:] Not that we've found it really matters, we've been [John:] Yeah. [Greg:] able to get into it anyway. But er [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] Well of course, yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] That's fine. The the tickets and the chad d did er [John:] Could I could I just go back on on the piano please. [Greg:] Yes. Yes, you. Yeah. [John:] Erm could could I suggest that the committee might like er to ask me to right to the W I to thank them for getting a new piano? [speaker001:] I think that's a [John:] I think it would be prudent. [speaker001:] I think that's a . [John:] I would certainly think it's a good idea. [Greg:] Good evening Malcolm. [Liz:] Good evening. I know I've been er elected vice, I intend to display all the er vices, sloth, idleness, [John:] [LAUGHTER].... . [Liz:] lack of punctuality. [Greg:] Well that's... [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Erm, you're being recorded by the way. Would you like to sign this to say that your words are being recorded and you don't object. [Greg:] That's just like a clarinet player. [John:] I don't give a damn. [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] I'm sure that. [John:] But you've got to sign, otherwise [Liz:] Oh.... [speaker001:] Same also Liz, if you don't mind. [Greg:] So yes, if you could write to the... if you could write to the Women's Institute, that would be very good. Thank you. [John:] Well I will when I've got my pen back. [Greg:] Right, that's fine.... [John:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Oh dear, what a shambles. [Julia:] What's that scribble? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Pauline:] Like a doctor's signature. [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] Thank you very much, I think you can read mine.... [John:] Sorry, er ch could we raise that under [speaker001:] . [John:] under Carols for Everyone? [Greg:] Yes, if you want [speaker001:] It's er [Greg:] yes, that can come along later.... [speaker001:] [cough]. [John:] Er er there was something else, I I sorry Greg y you were going to raise [Greg:] Oh, the Boys' Brigade, but that can that can also you [John:] Yes. [Greg:] were going to write to them [John:] Yes. [Greg:] as well.... Erm [John:] I think all I think most of the other things I the only... er one I I would like to raise is that it was agreed that the new committee should be recommended to appoint a press secretary. [Greg:] Yes, well that's the next item of course.... [John:] It is isn't it? I [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] I'd forgotten I'd put that on the agenda. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] How clever I am at these things. Yes.... [Greg:] No other matters arising? [speaker001:] . [John:] Okay. [Greg:] Number three, actually, it it's not number three [John:] There's two number threes, aren't there? [Greg:] There are two number threes. Appoint appointment of press secretary. Appointment of press secretary erm this was decided last time, that a press secretary would be a very good idea, er to try to achieve more publicity for the orchestra, not just for er concerts, but perhaps for recruitment purposes too.... We now need to appoint someone. [John:] I I should say, I I s I have today, because it was things were running a bit late, written to the the three usual papers, [Greg:] Mhm. [John:] er the Chad, Newark Advertiser, with er the usual useless information that they don't do much with. And er so we we're covered to date, [Greg:] Right. [John:] but I would like someone ideally to take take over from now on.... So that's where we go from here. I don't know whether anyone is jumping with joy at the thought.... [Julia:] Ooh that's quite good.. [Greg:] Well I could I could er I could probably take on that task if you wish, cos it's easy enough to actually write letters to people, cos I can just ask my secretary [LAUGHTER] to do that. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] So that's ac it's actually quite easy [John:] It [Greg:] and I certainly wouldn't mind doing that. [John:] Well,i if if you you could combine it with with with the chair, that would be, [speaker001:] . [John:] Gosh. [Greg:] No reason why not. The only thing I don't know i [Liz:] make sure make sure that this secretary gets a ch suitable [LAUGHTER] honorarium at Christmas []. [Greg:] our staff get very well treated here. [John:] Would be nice if other people do. [Greg:] But [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Greg:] But what I what I what I don't know is who the who the contact at these [John:] No. [Greg:] various places are. [John:] I I will give you a note then. [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] Yes. [Greg:] Yes, I won't tell my wife, otherwise she'll be furious. [speaker001:] Mm. . [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Liz:] normal state of matters, isn't it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] So that's that that's that rather awkward item so quite rapidly sorted out, yes. [John:] It was, yes. And John's got us onto the next one I see.... Well, I thought you'd have to be [speaker001:] . [Greg:] Yes, concert at Holy Trinity church, which is of course our next concert.... Erm these are the these are our publicity posters. [speaker001:] Right. [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] There are a few at... that size. [Julia:] Mm. [Greg:] Very nice. [Julia:] Nice. [John:] And that is er one of the programmes... which are now being printed. [speaker001:] Oh lovely. [Julia:] Have you done those? [John:] Thank you very much. No, Jill did. [Julia:] Oh,. [speaker001:] efficient. [John:] Terribly. She's not very pleased with it. She asked me to to say that for the record. [Pauline:] Oh no, it's beautiful. it's nice to have [Greg:] I think it's not I [Pauline:] the erm actual churches [speaker001:] Mhm. [Greg:] I think it's excellent. [Julia:] Yes, I think it's. [John:] But she's actually been in bed for five days. [Greg:] . Oh very nasty. [John:] Well I I would like to propose that the again we we er we thank Jill for this. [speaker001:] . [John:] I don't intend to write, if [LAUGHTER] you don't mind []. [Greg:] Well supposedly she'll come tomorrow night anyway [speaker001:] Ah. [Greg:] and do some work. [John:] Oh lovely. [speaker001:] . [Greg:] It's an excellent poster [Pauline:] Lovely. [Greg:] and I will endeavour to advertise this. [Julia:] Do you want us [Pauline:] Can we take these? [Julia:] to take some to to hang around? [Greg:] You can take some and who normally put things where. [John:] Well that that's the important thing, is we shouldn't... they shouldn't [Greg:] . [John:] just lie around anywhere. [Greg:] I'll take I'll take a couple for the moment. [Pauline:] . [John:] I did about twenty, because I thought well we don't normally sort of adv... scatter more than [speaker001:] . [John:] that do we? [Liz:] Is there a notice board down at the the that one of those could be put on? [John:] Oh yes, aha, I will do that [speaker001:] That's a jolly good idea. [John:] to oh shall I put that one up as well? [speaker001:] Mm. That one. Anyway.... [Greg:] If I take the rest away and try and... Who normally sticks one in the library, or [Julia:] It needs a big one doesn't it? [John:] I. I usually do that. [speaker001:] . [John:] No they no d don't give don't give them big ones, [Julia:] Don't they put a big one [John:] they don't put them up. [Julia:] That right?. [John:] Well, they don't put up little ones either, I mean they they they're very loathe to put [Julia:] . [John:] They've got so little space. [speaker001:] That's right. [Pauline:] Pec They're peculiar in the library. [Greg:] Yeah, libraries are very funny aren't they? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Greg:] I find that with our local, but well twist their arm. [John:] But it's a quest if you take something of reasonable size not too far in advance, you're usually alright. that right now. [Greg:] It's three to four weeks,? [Pauline:] Solos.... [Greg:] . [speaker001:] . Yes. [Greg:] Erm, the arrangement... erm I think for this concert arise on the er... er sheet which we distributed last week and the week before,... er [Liz:] Which I have inadvertently forgotten to bring with me. [Greg:] Doesn't matter we've got some spares. [Liz:] Ah. I knew somebody would take the hint. [Greg:] Not here, but we've got some spares [Liz:] Ah. [Greg:] we've got some spares in the. [Liz:] That's unfortunate. [Greg:] Erm which I can remember som go something along the lines of rehearsal at four thirty, picnic tea [John:] F four. [speaker001:] Four. [Greg:] Beg your pardon. [Pauline:] Four. [Greg:] Well [speaker001:] Sharp. [Greg:] this is all off the top of my head, four sharp, picnic tea, concert, and go home.... Or go back wherever. [John:] I I anticipate that the concert should be over about nine thirty, although I hope no if we finish nine thirty five no one 's going to [speaker001:] . [John:] shoot me. [Greg:] I wouldn't mind if it's over. [John:] . [Greg:] Er refreshments, everyone's going to bring their own er packed thing which we're going to share. [John:] Shou should I I [Greg:] I should think. [John:] last time there was some tea around available. I I must yes, shall I [Pauline:] Yes, there was [John:] I've said on the note that tea will be available, I must admit I didn't check that, but I will do that. [Greg:] Well the kitchen is still as was. [John:] That's what I thought, yes. [speaker001:] Alright. [John:] Yes, but is there somebody going to be climbing all over us saying No no no, you can't use our tea urn,. [Greg:] Well unfortunately, the lady who lives in the top cottage is now in erm hospital [John:] Ah. [Greg:] cos she had her what we think is probably a final stroke, not too long ago. So erm, she's usually the one who would have staggered round [speaker001:] Yes. [Greg:] and said, [speaker001:] Yes. [Greg:] you can't do that, and all the rest of it. [speaker001:] Yes. [Greg:] Erm and the place is like Fort Knox at the moment, cos it's got double sort of ten lever locks on every door, because somebody was pilfering from there, [speaker001:] Tt. [Greg:] not too [speaker001:] Oh. [Greg:] long ago. [John:] But I well I will make arrangements for it to be opened of course [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] on the afternoon, but I wi when I'm doing that I will check up about the tea urn and [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] so on. Has anyone got anything else they want particularly they'd like? I mean er d we usually offer a choice of soft drinks. Yes. Er it might be nice if someone was to er obtain something. Okay, well I'll bring some. [Greg:] Well I'm going to the cash and carry sometime [John:] . [Greg:] this week, so if you want me to get some... some squash or something. [John:] Well, provided someone does, we don't want two, but we do want [LAUGHTER] one to bring it. Yes []. Especially for a summer concert on a boiling hot day,. [Julia:] . [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] Oh yes. [Greg:] I've got I'm going to the cash and carry anyway. [John:] You're going to the cash and carry, so. [Greg:] I'm going to the cash and carry, yeah.... [John:] I was actually considering getting some of those little boxes.... [Greg:] Yeah. I er [John:] Or whatever I mean er as well as rather than the expensive,. [Greg:] They're expensive and they're [speaker001:] . [Greg:] not very nice. I think we're better off with orange squash, just [speaker001:] . [Greg:] ordinary orange squash and dilute it down. To be honest. [John:] Okay. It's certainly more flexible, because you can then [Greg:] We've got we've got the rest left for use on a Wednesday then [John:] use. [Greg:] er er [John:] Yes. There's still quite a big bottle for use on a Wednesday down. [speaker001:] Is there? [Greg:] Is there? [John:] Well we want to use that up. [Pauline:] Mhm. [Greg:] . [speaker001:] . [John:] From a hygiene point of view it's [LAUGHTER] it must be a little ancient by now. [Greg:] Well, I don't know, if it's if it's if it's got sugar in, it'll... it'll be fine. sugar free one. [John:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] . We'll see what they've got, if they've got something exciting, I might get more than one exciting squash, so [Liz:] I'm alright, as long as the tea keeps flowing, I [Greg:] Cash and carry. [Liz:] don't care. [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] We we didn't actually get through all the arrangements question, erm,J John a are you w there was some ce uncertainty as to whether or not you were going to be able to bring your adaptable piano? Well we'll use the piano that's there. You're going to use the piano that's there? Cos it's it's it's for piano duet, not Yeah. two pianos, cos I was The piano there is adequate for the job is it? Well, not really, but we'll use it. [Greg:] Is i is it in tune? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] Because if we're going to use it for the ragtime and er [John:] Well of course it's in tune. [Greg:] Right.... Yeah. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] It's electronic. Oh is it? [Greg:] No, er the piano in the church we're talking about? [John:] Yes. [Greg:] Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry [John:] Yes. [Greg:] I thought you were talking about [John:] Yes. [Greg:] an ordinary piano in the church. Oh right, oh well [John:] Yes, [Greg:] that's fine, yes. Ideal. [John:] no no,. [Greg:] Ideal, yeah. [John:] It's tuneable. [speaker001:] Oh mm yes. Oh even better. We can put it down. [John:] Is it one? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] No, no. I think it's got a piano and harpsichord,... John. [speaker001:] Oh. [Liz:] Well we could use the harpsichord for the Haydn anyway,. [John:] Oh yes. [Greg:] Oh yeah, that'd be nice, that'd be great. [John:] Yeah. [Liz:] That's alright harpsichord I I heard, it'd. [LAUGHTER].... [John:] But what what we can't get is an organ out of it [LAUGHTER] which is a pity [], Well we have got an organ in the church. [speaker001:] There's [Greg:] There is an organ in the church anyway. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Ah but that's the devil to try and coordinate that with an orchestra when you're at the other end [speaker001:] Yes it is isn't it? [John:] sense of. [Pauline:] You can't put the devil in a church John, come on. [speaker001:] . . [John:] The one thing which we haven't got still are are er bells, [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] er other than wh the church ones, which obviously aren't a lot of use to us for this [speaker001:] can use that. [John:] Erm I was thinking of phoning John, I don't know if anyone else knows anyone else who might have tubular bells of the right... pitches? [Julia:] What do we want those for? [Pauline:] . [John:] Er In a monastery garden, one of these vital things, it d it you can do it on a piano, but it doesn't really sound.... [Malcolm:] Has got any? [John:] That's a thought isn't it? [Malcolm:] has probably got some in his shop. [Greg:] Well, I don't know if tubular bells are what most music shops carry standard. [speaker001:] Mm no. Mm. [Malcolm:] Well, he has most percussion stuff.... [John:] It wants to be deep o a deep one, I mean i it's [speaker001:] . [John:] not just a not a high E, it's got to be a very low E. [Greg:] Yeah. Mm. It'd be worth asking him first, though. [John:] That's not that's not a bad idea, yes. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] John would... Yes. come across if he's got access to... Well, I was thinking if he couldn't actually make it, he could actually l like It's not really the height of the concert season is it? No, it isn't, no. I'll I'll ask him then.... [speaker001:] .... [Greg:] Tt er anything on those arrangements? I don't think so. Publicity and programmes. Well, we've got the programmes being printed, haven't we John? [John:] Yeah. [Greg:] And the posters, we can ask members of the society to distribute those... er over the next er [John:] I ought to ask Malcolm if he c I I don't know what day you'll be in? [Liz:] Sorry. The [John:] . [Liz:] There's only there's only actually one day I'm not there. [John:] Ah, so if I [Liz:] I'll I'll rephrase that,n only one day I [LAUGHTER] don't appear []. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] If if one can go very gentle with, I think in [Liz:] I. [John:] the end, we're going to have to seek alternative [Liz:] Yeah.. It's a matter [John:] arrangements, she seems to be getting more and more [Liz:] Yeah. [John:] snowed under there. [Liz:] Yeah. It's a matter we need. [John:] Cos they're doing more and more in half an hour. [Liz:] Yeah. [Greg:] Is this copying we're talking about? [Liz:] Yeah. [John:] This is, yeah. [Greg:] Yeah, we've got an a I I can copy, but we've only got an A four copier, [speaker001:] Mm. [Greg:] which won't er which is just a sort of straightforward copier. [John:] Yeah.... [Greg:] But I can... c copy there. [Liz:] The only trouble is, the only other place I know with a photocopier it's one of these typical photocopying... as we know, you know. [John:] Well I think the school here does do erm... er you know outside work [Malcolm:] We do. And we have a woman does it. [John:] Erm yeah. Well,th that's two [Malcolm:] Just have to pay, very cheaply. [John:] Cos I know the woman who does the is the reprographics [Greg:] How much is it a copy? [John:] woman down here. [Malcolm:] Two P I think. [Greg:] Two P. [Julia:] Mm. [John:] Yeah, well that's still [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] about two thousand per cent up [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER] on our current system []. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] getting an awful lot more. [Malcolm:] Well, I mean sh we could probably do it cheaper, you know [speaker001:] I wonder whether the would do, you know. [Liz:] It might. [John:] I think le let's keep let's keep the the for the carols. [speaker001:] Yes, that's. [Liz:] that's the one that it's the one that bothers me. [Malcolm:] Yeah, I mean we could we'll do it cheap we could do it cheap and I could work that out in a private way. [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] That's the one I'm thinking of. [Liz:] Yeah, but you mean ano we can do the odds and ends but it's the it's the other one. [Greg:] Yes, it might be promised for the carols, but it's not [speaker001:] Yes. Well.... Yes, we'll see. [Greg:] . Right, item four, concert in the Great Hall, third of November nineteen ninety three. [John:] Y y you'll see at the bottom of the agenda... that er John and I talked about this the other night, er and there are [Greg:] The Great Hall? [John:] at least Yes, the Great Hall. [Greg:] Ah yes, right, yes right. [John:] right down the bottom. [Greg:] Oh yes it's right down the bottom isn't it. Yeah. Right. [John:] And there are a number of possible pieces there, Did we talk about this? We did. [LAUGHTER] Ah, right, yes. [] [Greg:] [LAUGHTER] Someone must have made the list. [] [LAUGHTER].... [John:] Er... but that's just er something to talk around. I should say I have one problem, and that is I have the ballet music from William Tell there, but that seems to have walked. Er n [Malcolm:] Danced. [LAUGHTER] Danced, danced. [] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] . [Greg:] where did it go? [John:] I I had a set a full set of music which I I er er was at the W I hall, and has now gone. [speaker001:] Oh. [John:] Where the dickens it's got to. [Greg:] I remember it [John:] Someone took it I think. [Greg:] I remember it being collected in. [Malcolm:] Well I'll check in case I might have picked it up with my school stuff, to be honest [Greg:] I remember it being collected in, but er [Malcolm:] cos I just picked everything up that was in there, thinking it was mine, and. [John:] Well I haven't got it. [Malcolm:] So I've probably got it, [John:] Ah. If you could put it [Malcolm:] and I put it straight in my cupboard so I'll go to the cupboard tomorrow and look. [John:] Ah,c if you could look I'd be very grateful. [Malcolm:] Yes. [John:] But someone [Malcolm:] I'm almost sure in fact, probably have. [John:] took took some of the took the clarinet parts to transpose them, and they have gone. [Julia:] I remember discussing that. [John:] Now someone took them and I don't know who took it intending [Julia:] But... not me. [John:] to transpose them. No [Liz:] I shall have a look [John:] no, I don't know who, [Julia:] No. [John:] I mean I'm not looking at anyone in particular, because I I can't [Julia:] I remember speaking about it to Malcolm,a and [John:] remember. [Greg:] Well who would do that? [Liz:] Well I shall have a look. I don't [Julia:] You you and I discussed whether I I was going to be able to do it. [Liz:] I don't I can't remember doing I can't remember taking it. [Greg:] It was quite a long time. [John:] I am going to raise later a number of [LAUGHTER] missing parts that I I []. [Julia:] . [Greg:] Quite a. [John:] it matters for this one, for this concert. [Liz:] haven't got, but I shall have a look for that. What was that for, the the Rossini? [Greg:] William Tell, yes. [John:] Rossini William Tell. [Julia:] Oh.... [speaker001:] . [Greg:] such a a wonderful piece. [John:] It would be nice to do it I think, and it would. [Greg:] I don't know, I mean [Malcolm:] Well I may have taken it because we [speaker001:] . [Malcolm:] had a set at school, and I might have thought that was amongst my set, [John:] Ah. [Malcolm:] so in [speaker001:] It's quite old, it's sort of [Malcolm:] I'll have two sets at school anyway then, if I've got yours. [speaker001:] of the original. . [Liz:] bring the decent. [Malcolm:] Bring both, [LAUGHTER] bring both, yeah []. [LAUGHTER].... [Greg:] Is our is the guitarist w going to be available for the? [John:] I have just written down that I must write to him, [Greg:] Alright,. [John:] because he has now left school having [Greg:] Yes. [John:] finished his exams, [Greg:] Right. [John:] I have now left school, [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] and, well, just about. And so the only communication I shall have with him is by letter, but er... it's the third of... [Liz:] Nov. [John:] November isn't it? [Liz:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. . [Malcolm:] Have you done now?... [John:] Oh yeah. [Malcolm:] I can bring some reports round for you to right then. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Aha ha no. []... [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] It's a nasty affliction deafness, you know. [LAUGHTER]. We we we've still got the parts for the concerto the guitar concerto, yeah? Ann said, Ann said to me [speaker001:] Oh yes. [John:] the other day she said [speaker001:] We own the parts. [John:] Oh do we? . Oh. [speaker001:] Courtesy of a certain photocopier. [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] . [Malcolm:] at the moment. [John:] just just just finished no more course work the last course work I'm ever going to do, she says Erm I've got a hundred and twenty pieces you can [LAUGHTER] help me mark []. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [John:] The rest of the conversation is not for repetition. [speaker001:] No.... [John:] The the Weber parts for the Weber clarinet conc concertino are somewhere between the music library in Nottingham and the library here and should reach me a week tomorrow. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. Sorry about that, done it. [speaker001:] . [John:] Well I don't know, they usually co they usually deliver on a Wednesday, so with luck I'll get them tomorrow. [speaker001:] Very good. [John:] Er it it's really a matter of whether you feel you'd like to do it. [Liz:] Yeah, no sweat. [John:] Yes,. Good, well okay [LAUGHTER] I do []. . you'll be lucky, yeah. Erm it it's not easy. Er you are playing double bass. [Greg:] Mm. I think I think the good part for. [John:] find a piano reduction for this, cos I I think there will I think there should be there may well be one, there usually is with the. [LAUGHTER] I shall make you work. [] [LAUGHTER].... [Liz:] [LAUGHTER] I thought you'd been doing that for the thirty whatsit of July. [] [John:] But there may be I mean warmed up for that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] This is just a sort of first list, the one thing... erm you were going to ask Jimmy? [Greg:] I have asked Jimmy, and Jimmy has declined, [John:] Right. [Greg:] I'm afraid,f for a cello concerto, he declined, I asked him er a couple of weeks ago.... Tt so that was a shame, [speaker001:] . [Greg:] he I [John:] We've probably got actually quite a bit of other stuff already, but er [Greg:] Tt, well if we've got a guitar concerto, a clarinet concertino and possibility of a flute concerto, [Malcolm:] Mm. [Greg:] alright. [John:] Tt we were expressing, John and I, some erm concern that the the same few people seemed to be offering the soloing or... we'll do something bits. And maybe it's... aren't there others who can, [speaker001:] . [John:] although we did of course have that disastrous trio, [LAUGHTER] that... came to blows two years ago []. [speaker001:] Yeah, but look [Julia:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] . . [Liz:] Last year, we didn't actually make a lot of noise about erm... you know, come and do your party [speaker001:] . [Liz:] piece business.... The year before wh wh [John:] We did. [Liz:] we made an awful lot of erm... noise about erm you know, this is not actually a co a concert, this is come and do your party piece, come and show off, is there anything you'd like to get together? And when we actually introduced it last year, it was too late, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Liz:] people th there wasn't really enough [Greg:] Mm. [speaker001:] Time, quite. [Liz:] Erm perhaps it might be an idea to [John:] Well I [Liz:] open it up to the membership. [John:] Well I wonder if if in fact er tha that this might be a task for the vice chairman t to go round, to to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. . [Pauline:] . [speaker001:] If if the vice chairman was to [Liz:] . [speaker001:] . [Liz:] I shall do that. I shall do that. [John:] Good. [Liz:] Nae bother. [John:] You w you will tr we don't want you know va I mean if we get too many, it could go the other way, but we i if we could get three or four items, that would be very nice. And especially a er they could be from people, [Greg:] Well I'm sure John and Jimmy and Bill have got something. [John:] That's what we were commenting on. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Yes, that's the point, to get someone [speaker001:] . [John:] new new lot, who haven't played before. [Liz:] I know I realise that, it's alright. [John:] You see I mean it it did occur to me that er erm on on the three occasions that we've done this now, it always turns out to be er me involved in about just you know either playing the piano or something else in just about everything. Er, [Liz:] Yeah, I'm [John:] it's nice to have other people. [Liz:] I I'm working I'm working with erm Howard on er er a little... clarinet minuet actually... minuet, two clarinets and a bassoon.... Erm which would be alright, but then again, the [John:] The bassoonist doesn't practice. [Liz:] The r we the bassoonist wo I doubt whether the bassoonist will be there [speaker001:] Yeah. [Liz:] anyway, so we could get erm... he'd better not be there. [speaker001:] Yes. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Poor lad, the pressure on him. []... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER] Why? [] I've lost this.. [Liz:] It's alright, it's just about three different conversations going on here. [Pauline:] . [Liz:] Erm we'll get er you know it's not er... a very taxing bassoon. [speaker001:] No. [Liz:] So would be... I reckon would be [Greg:] 's pretty good at it. [Liz:] And and would have a good time playing it, cos i There's enough there, but it's not... you know [John:] Alternatively, the chairman could do it on his horn, can't he?... [Greg:] Yes, well. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Or or or the vice chairman could do it on alto clarinet and give somebody else a clarinet part to play. [Greg:] Now there's a thought, yes, yes. [Pauline:] Mm. [John:] Hey that's an idea, we try this as clarinet choir. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Greg:] clarinet choir can sound quite nice.... Most clarinets. [Liz:] Whichever. [speaker001:] With there being [Liz:] That's that's that's [Greg:] double bass solo would be interesting. [Liz:] that's back to me again, isn't it? [John:] Would it? [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] Yes, it would be alright if we had a decent [LAUGHTER] double bass []. [LAUGHTER]. need much more strings at the moment. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Well we're going to have this guitar concerto, and I was [Liz:] string player see what we can. [speaker001:] . [Greg:] But erm well [speaker001:] Right. [Greg:] So the [John:] You you're going to try and get some solo out, persuade members to [Liz:] Yes. [Greg:] Are there any other suggestions for possible works while we're on the arrangements and the programme?... I've thought of one which... I don't I can't remember whether we've ever done that's Rosamunda, Overture to Rosamunda, which [speaker001:] Erm yeah. [Greg:] is quite a jolly little piece. [Julia:] . [John:] . do it, but not a bad idea, yes. [Greg:] Er... [Malcolm:] We did the Fireworks Suite didn't we,? [Greg:] . [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Malcolm:] We've done that. [Greg:] Rosamunda.... [Malcolm:] Erm [John:] It's the overture isn't it? [Greg:] Oh, yeah, I wasn't thinking about doing the ballet music. [John:] The one which Die Selberhalfe. [Greg:] Although some of the ballet music, we we actually some of [speaker001:] That's right. [Greg:] ballet music's quite good as well. And not un not unreasonable. [John:] It was some of the ballet music we did before. [Julia:] Did we? [John:] We did the o we did try the overture, I think, er... but we er we didn't get on very well with it. It didn't get on very well with us,. About time we gave it another whirl. [Greg:] But some of the ballet music's quite nice as well. [John:] The the only... slight concern I've got is there looking at what we've got here, what we really need to add is something which is relatively short and relatively easy, [Greg:] Mm. [John:] because I can imagine, looking at rehearsals, what we need are a few sort of easy things to start and end rehearsals with, or for rehearsals when we're a bit thin on the ground, er Well the Bach is that. The Bach is quite [Pauline:] Yeah. [John:] useful for that, yes, in fact several of I suppose I've done the wind parts for that, they're they're done and copied.... [Greg:] We could er there's the Air for Southwell, we could perhaps play that again. [Julia:] Oh mm. [Liz:] Yes, I have to tell you that the Air for Southwell is now in the process of acquiring a beginning and an end. [John:] Ah. [speaker001:] Ah. [Liz:] It's actually got sixteen bars of start up at the moment, in short score, [Greg:] Cos that'd be [Liz:] which is being sort of developed, [Greg:] Er cos that'd be very nice. [Liz:] I've got that broken arm, which I [LAUGHTER] had to put in a sling every [LAUGHTER] time [] [LAUGHTER].... [John:] I think that'd very very good that one. [Greg:] And a lovely place to play it as well,. [John:] Oh yes, yes. Of course. [speaker001:] Mm.... [John:] Well, if what we're looking for is another time Well I think we've probably got enough, something's got to go, oh we've got too too much some of [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [John:] these things will have to go, but almost [speaker001:] . [John:] certain usually, we [Greg:] Well I could volunteer the Air for Southwell. [John:] try things and we discover some things don't work very [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] well, and we drop them and we add other things. [speaker001:] We usually have a fair bit of time to do it. to look at it, so. [John:] Er yes, yes, some of them will come and some of them will go, and er [Greg:] And a lot's going to depend on the number of solo items of course I should think, so [John:] Yes, oh yes, yeah.... Er [Greg:] Now copying musi so so the exactly what we? [John:] Yes, the copying music, what I'm asking for is not so much copying there,ag it's it's the old friend transposition, well it's partly copying, but it's mainly transposition of erm horn, trumpet and clarinet parts [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] which tend to be written in every key other than the one we want them.... So... some things we're alright for, I don't know about the clarinet concertino, I've no idea what that'll come in. Jesu Joy, . you're doing, John. Yes, it's done. Oh gosh. [Greg:] One in D one in E, one in B, [John:] Good. Erm the Mozart flute concerto needs [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] doing, [Greg:] Yeah, I can [John:] there are really it's a question there of trying to sort out who does what in there, there are... horn parts, there are no clarinet parts, of course, there are two two ob... is it two oboes two horns, I can't remember offhand? Erm... tha that's all wind parts. [Greg:] So we need some clarinet parts? [John:] We need some clarinet parts, yes. I I think the best thing to do with the flutes is to put them along with the first... you want to put on clarinet? [Greg:] And put two... second on viola?... Second on viola, perhaps? Doubling just perhaps just doubling viola?... [John:] Well in that case I'll play viola. [Greg:] Or double or double viola and horn. [John:] Well they could do second oboe. [speaker001:] . [John:] I mean if they're not. [speaker001:] . . [Liz:] In fact, presumably one also needs to do the transposition of first oboe and second oboe in case the the oboe isn't there? [John:] That's true. [Greg:] Mm. [John:] Yes. [Liz:] Cos if you cut out the first oboe part, you're in a little bit [John:] That is that is crucial, yes. [Greg:] Yeah.. [John:] So it's oboes to clarinet, I haven't got the parts in here but I can if I n if someone is going to volunteer to clarinet, horns... horns will stay at horns, but horn two presumably on trum what are the what are we going to give the trumpet to do? Usually it's a horn part.... [Greg:] Yeah.... [John:] He's not got much choice really about it. [Greg:] No he hasn't really no, I yeah, trumpet for the horn, yeah. [John:] Which one goes better,ho horn one or horn two? Or do you want to have a look at them first? [Greg:] Just. I mean you can imagine what th the horn parts are playing in something like thirds fifths and sixths, [John:] It sounds odd yes. [Greg:] up and down the intervals I mean it is a bit of a muchness really. I mean the trouble is if you put the trumpet erm, if you put the trumpet too low, it's it's it doesn't sound good and it goes out of tune, [John:] Yeah. [Greg:] you put the ti the trumpet too high it sounds very much out of place. [John:] You don't. [Greg:] So er [speaker001:] Tricky. [Greg:] It is tricky really. [John:] So it er you know [Greg:] And probably the best thing to do is say is say, Trumpet plays horn two, and plays quietly all the way through, [Pauline:] Mm. [Greg:] actually that's actually quite hard work. [John:] You can say it. [Greg:] It's actually quite hard work on the trumpet,. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] . [Liz:] Well it's j it's just the same problem as playing string parts on on wind instruments, you [Greg:] Yeah. [Liz:] by the time you've finished, you you you you've [Greg:] You're killed. [Liz:] you've really had some playing. [speaker001:] Mhm. [Greg:] The trouble is with the second horn parts, they often often have a wider register... gap, and the first horn part which tends to waver up and down in vaguely the same place while the second sort of goes woo woo woo, jumps up and down. [John:] Wh what I'd like to do please, is [Greg:] the trumpet. [John:] i if someone would like to volunteer to do these transpositions, [Greg:] I'll I'll do the brass, the horn trumpet whatever... is necessary for that. [Liz:] And I'll do the stuff. [John:] If I may, I'll give them to you tomorrow with Post-Its telling you what to write, what to transpose it to. [Greg:] That'll be fine, yeah. I mean there's no huge hurry for those, is there, really at the moment so?... [John:] We need Well, we need to have it ready [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] after for [Greg:] Yes. [John:] after this concert, this is the point this is why we've [Greg:] Oh yes, oh yes. got f we've got a month to do it in. [Liz:] Now, just as a matter of interest, whilst I remember, how are we off for manuscript paper? [speaker001:] point. [Greg:] I've got quite a bit at home. [John:] We could always print some more. [Greg:] But er [Liz:] Well I was sort of erm [speaker001:] . [Greg:] It'd be cheaper to buy it, actually. [Liz:] progressing, aren't they? [speaker001:] No. is it really? [Malcolm:] I've got a boxful that I never use. [Greg:] Oh. [speaker001:] . [Malcolm:] Yeah, I'll bring it in and you can have it. Yeah, you can have it. [Liz:] No no, it's just as long as you've got a supply somewhere. No no I [Malcolm:] Yeah. [Liz:] don't want it. [LAUGHTER].... [John:] Well could you could you bring it in? [speaker001:] . . [Malcolm:] I'll bring it tomorrow. Yeah. [speaker001:] please, cos I appreciate more manuscript paper. [John:] I've I've got enough enough stuff in our house without any erm any extra. [speaker001:] Good. [John:] So we're alright there. [Greg:] a while to transpose, I've been printing stuff on card recently, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Liz:] Poor lad, [Greg:] And then you just photocopy from the card, and it's a nice, and you keep the card, you don't give that out. [Liz:] great stuff.. Well it's easily identified. [Greg:] Yes. [John:] Well we're probably alright for the other things for the time being, but we may need about the the Weber erm. alright. [Greg:] Yes, if we're doing the Weber. [speaker001:] Why. [John:] Oh sorry, horn and. Yeah, horns and er er the optional clarinet may be an. [Greg:] The horn [speaker001:] . [John:] I would doubt it, yeah. [Greg:] What key's the clarinet part in? [John:] I if er Oh god it's in F,... so it's in E flat.... Orchestral. [speaker001:] . [John:] Or or what it is, [Greg:] It'll be. [John:] it's a min it's actually minor, and I've got Well this is the one with the business I had with the library. They said, No [Greg:] I suppose it could be E flat, couldn't it? [John:] there isn't one in E flat, there's one in C minor. Yeah, C minor, yeah. And actually they've got two miniature scores in the library, one of which said it was in E flat, and the other one said it was in C minor, so you pays your money and you takes your choice, erm [speaker001:] . [John:] it it's very strange, I've never come across If it if it actually actually finishes on clarinet F, which is the E flat, [Liz:] It's probably E flat. [John:] I I I've always called it the E flat, [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] but there's one score which un un unambiguously calls it in C minor on the, and it starts in C minor, so [speaker001:] It it starts in C minor. It starts . [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER] What the one the one [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The one on the roof yeah. [] [Greg:] John, can I ask you full rehearsals during the holiday period, was was there any particular point you're considering about that? [John:] Well, just concerned about the usual thing that obviously many people are away on holiday then, er I I'm wondering if... th anyone anticipates any particular problems this year, or if anyone thinks we ought to do anything... by way of special arrangements? I I may not be away very often this summer. [Malcolm:] I don't think I will be. [Julia:] . [Greg:] No, no. [Liz:] Well I I shall be away for a while this summer, so hard lines. [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] I'll I'll actually be here, cos i if we get some builders in, we're [Liz:] Er I don't see [Greg:] not going anywhere in a hurry. Till July and August. [Liz:] I don't see any point in adding complications to life. Just let it run. [Julia:] . [John:] Right, okay. That's what I like to hear. [speaker001:] easy who's going to be here next week isn't it? [John:] Yeah. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. Tomorrow [John:] Well, yes, that's what we usually do, yes, but Mm. [Julia:] Why?... What's wrong with next week? [Liz:] You just stand there and say, Who's going to be here next week? [Pauline:] No, each week. [speaker001:] No no no. [Greg:] Oh I see, from week to week, yes yes. [Pauline:] I had a meeting last week. [speaker001:] . [Greg:] Er next er next item [Pauline:] . [Greg:] then, Carols for Everyone, eighteenth of December nineteen ninety three, we have a a draft of carols for organ, paid by our special sub-committee, thank you very much gentlemen. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [Greg:] [cough]. For discussion, [Malcolm:] I see we have some erm non-English carols down here. [Liz:] Splendid. [John:] Aye. [Liz:] Masters in this hall, my jug cup of joy overflows. [Malcolm:] . [LAUGHTER]. [John:] That's it, that's why I put it there. [Liz:] I accept everything. [John:] There was some reason for having it there. It's cos we knew that otherwise you'd be complaining. [Malcolm:] Because I thought there were complaints about foreign carols. [Liz:] Wonderful. [Greg:] Is this erm is this a suggested complete list, or are we going to take [John:] We need [Greg:] so many out of this list? [John:] No we need [Greg:] I can't remember how many [John:] We need, last year,fo we found ab was about the right length. [Greg:] Fourteen, yeah. [John:] And that was fourteen, if we go over that, it really is too many. [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] We can certainly substitute for these no problem. The things you've got to watch for are, that you keep a decent balance of familiar and unfamiliar ones, people complain whichever way you [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] go either way on that, er you've got to be careful with your number of foreign ones, we've got two down there, which may be one too many, I don't know. Er [Liz:] Just right. [Julia:] Is Jingle Bells a carol? [Pauline:] Well that one doesn't count. [John:] No, a carol No it i I'm not going to call it in the programme that, I'm going to call it a song for [LAUGHTER] everyone. I don't think I would dare er call it a carol []. There's going to be a competition for the best alternative verse I think. [Greg:] Can I can I do you think I could just ask to run through all these, cos er you you put a couple of strange tunes [John:] Yes. [Greg:] so I'm not quite sure how all the ones go. I think everyone knows God [Liz:] Er would you like to sing these John? [Greg:] Everyone knows God rest Ye, [Liz:] Is that a brick-bint brick-b brick-built handle? [John:] Brick-built handle, aye. [Greg:] While while Shepherds watched, the tune for that is going to be [John:] The tune for that is... John, it's [speaker001:] Handel. [John:] erm [Greg:] Handel Mason, it says. [John:] Yes, that's Handel arrangement Mason. Page one three five. [Greg:] So how how would that go? [John:] arranged the American composer, Lowell Mason, [Julia:] Who bought him this book? [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] . [Julia:] People expect the normal,. [speaker001:] . [Liz:] No, they don't expect the normal, [Greg:] What book is it? What book is it? [Liz:] they want the normal, but to get. [Julia:] . [John:] This was my Christmas present about. [Pauline:] sing it out. [John:] . [singing] While shepherds watched their flocks by night, all seated on the ground [], you want the rest of it? [speaker001:] Yeah. . [John:] [singing] The the the angel of the lord came down, and glory shone around, and glory shone around. []. [Greg:] They a they er they're not going to know that are they? [John:] Yes. [Pauline:] No. [speaker001:] . [John:] Well, of course, [Pauline:] The choir will sing it won't they? [John:] the Americans, this [speaker001:] we shall. [Greg:] So how [John:] is the p proper American version. [Greg:] So are we going to teach them it on or? [John:] Have to. [Greg:] Away in a manger, is that going to be a standard tune? [John:] Oh yes. [speaker001:] [humming] [Greg:] Jingle Bells, Masters in this Hall, how? [John:] Swe [speaker001:] [singing] La la la la la la la la la la la, la la la la [] [John:] Yes? [Greg:] So, O Little Town, the tune? [John:] Ah yes, now John that is page three six three. [Julia:] Is it as nice as the proper one? [John:] It's again it's the [Liz:] Proper one? [John:] this is the original tune, no, this is the original tune. [singing] La la la la la la la la la la. [] Because the man who erm [speaker001:] . . [John:] it might be an idea what he actually said about this. Philip Brooks was director of Holy Trinity church in Philadelphia, erm on, and he was in the Holy Land on Christmas Eve in eighteen sixty five, and he stood in a field outside Bethlehem where the shepherds were supposed to have received the annunciation, and thought of the beginning of O Little Town of Bethlehem. And it eventually gestated out, and he wrote it for his Sunday school, and his church organist, Lewis Redner was asked to provide the music, and this is the music which Redner provided [speaker001:] Aha. [John:] for the original. And once again, it's American. [singing] O Little Town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie. [] [Greg:] Oh yeah. [Malcolm:] Oh yeah. [John:] Every American knows it. Right? Flows nicely. [Greg:] do know about that. Yes, oh that's nice, yes. [Julia:] There aren't too many Americans in. [Greg:] . [John:] So what? [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] Has everyone heard? [Pauline:] No. [Liz:] No. [Malcolm:] [singing] La la la la [] [speaker001:] [singing] La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. [] [Julia:] Is it sung in Latin? [John:] Yes. [Liz:] Splendid. [John:] [singing] la la la [] [Julia:] Well that's a foreign one then. [John:] [singing] la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la [] [speaker001:] orchestrated. [John:] [singing] la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la []. It's it's Holst isn't it? [speaker001:] Yes. [Liz:] Yes. [John:] It's the Holst arrangement, although they've got anther version of it in there, which isn't Holst. [Greg:] Oh no, the Holst. [John:] which they. I think the Holst. [speaker001:] Holst goes above. . [Greg:] We've got to have Holst, yes. The Virgin Mary had a baby boy, [John:] last time, and the problem was starting it. [speaker001:] [singing] la la la la la la la la. [] [John:] starting it, [Greg:] We've done that before haven't we? [speaker001:] Yes. [Greg:] We we've got it complete with diddly-dums and all the rest of it. The Twelve Days of Christmas, is that the, did we [speaker001:] [hums tune] [Greg:] do that the year before last? [Julia:] We did it last year, didn't we? [Greg:] Yes, we did it last year? No we didn't. [speaker001:] . We haven't done it for a while. [Liz:] We haven't done it for two years. [John:] No bu I'm sorry, the other thing I'm sorry I should have said the other thing I'm going on is when things were last done, [Julia:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] Oh yes, yes. I've seen I've seen famous sheet before. [John:] Yes, we've got a little list, we've got a little list. [Greg:] I've seen [speaker001:] Ah. [Greg:] this famous sheet before, yes. [John:] The Twelve Days of Christmas was last done in nineteen ninety, [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] before that it had been done in eighty one, eighty two, eighty four, eighty six, eighty eight and ninety, so curiously now, it's it's missed out several years, [Malcolm:] Mm. [John:] Oh dear. it was getting [speaker001:] . [John:] a bit regular, and now, it's dropped. [Liz:] It was, yes, yes. [John:] So we really must have that back, and I think we must have it in the... er traditional tune. [Julia:] Three years ago. [Liz:] Yes. [John:] Well we've got the traditional thing without the modulation to G flat major, [speaker001:] Oh. [John:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] Can't we do can't we do the old one? Oh, I like the one. [John:] Every everything always went very quiet at that point. [Pauline:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Not a lot of people played it. [] [speaker001:] Tricky for the [Pauline:] You'd wrong, and they'd all shut up. [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Should give the audience. [speaker001:] . [John:] The org the organist used to carry it for a long way. [Liz:] Yeah. [Greg:] Il est ne, is that going to be in French or? [John:] Oui. Oui, mais c'est formidable. [speaker001:] [singing] Il est ne le divine enfant, [] [singing] La la la la la la la la, [] [singing] la la la la la la []. [Greg:] We tried to sing that last Christmas, but. [John:] Er Bleak Midwinter we can either have the traditional tune, [Julia:] Yes. [John:] or Harold Darkey, but the traditional tune is. [Malcolm:] We ought to have some traditional ones. [Julia:] . [John:] I I have a feeling we're we're a a little bit low on familiar things, you see, [Malcolm:] Yes. [John:] I'm worried about this. [Greg:] But both tunes are very familiar. [Liz:] Well come on, you've got Good King Welly, God Rest you merry gentlemen, eh [speaker001:] [singing] In the bleak midwinter [], [Liz:] Away in a manger, [Pauline:] I like that. [speaker001:] . [Liz:] The only trouble about that, unless you [Pauline:] What is the other one? [Liz:] start it at about er molto presto, you end up [speaker001:] [singing] La la la la la. [] [singing] La la la la la la. [] That's a problem we ought to sort out. No. [singing] La la la la la la la la la la. [] [Pauline:] Couldn't we rather pick the one tune and the other? [John:] That's more of a choir setting though, isn't it really? [Greg:] Oh, I dunno. [speaker001:] . [Julia:] . [Greg:] Yeah, well,per perhaps we'll get [singing] Good King Wenceslas looked out. [] [speaker001:] . [John:] Did you want to s you started your way through there? [Pauline:] No, I'm just listening to the two, yes. [John:] Now we were going to do The Holly and The Ivy, but that's why the carol crept in. [Liz:] orderly meetings, these. [Pauline:] What's that one? [John:] [singing] La la la la [] [Greg:] It's the one [John:] [singing] la la la la la la la la []. [speaker001:] No. [John:] Erm. [speaker001:] Erm. . [Liz:] It's also choir practice. [speaker001:] . [Liz:] . Give us an A please. [speaker001:] [singing] La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. [] [Pauline:] Are the words in English to that? [John:] Yes. [Greg:] , I Saw Three Ships. [speaker001:] [singing] La la la la la la la la la. [] [John:] I there is a version by John Rutter in five eight time if you want me [LAUGHTER] to find that []. [Liz:] Yes, yes, I'd like to see that. [John:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] I think I've seen that one. [Pauline:] . [John:] [singing] La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. [] [speaker001:] One two three four five, one two. [John:] [singing] La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. [] [Pauline:] I like it,. [John:] Lovely it is, it's great,. [Greg:] Isn't that one of the carols required? [John:] Erm I don't know, it probably is, yes. [speaker001:] There's a horrible Rutter one in there, which was I've never. [John:] You can't say horrible. We we usually do do the Rutter one, which begins with a horn solo, which [speaker001:] No, we. [John:] should always worry you, I don't mean now, but in the past [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] it's always been, because er it's [speaker001:] . [John:] it's a a horn then bassoon solo, and it it's a most worrying opening for er a because it is [speaker001:] . [John:] it is literally a solo, er unaccompanied. [Greg:] It is, it's straight out the blue, yeah. Pop. [John:] Yes, and everybody else sort of goes, Who? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Yeah, er I must admit it [LAUGHTER] it's alright, but. It's it's slightly dicey []. It's the one that gives you your worst fears, isn't it, when you conduct it, and you go... and nothing happens. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Then it's start again. Well yes. [speaker001:] . [John:] But I I do wonder whether or not there aren't there there aren't enough familiar ones? [Greg:] Some of those, some of those are a little bit unfamiliar, especially in the [Liz:] . [Greg:] tunes. And and I I wonder if There is an absence of the two biggies, I mean it's always nice to have one which people can really latch onto like er [John:] You're talking about [Greg:] Hark the Herald [Pauline:] . [speaker001:] . [John:] Hark the Herald i is one which really I [Pauline:] . [John:] I I p I'm inclined to suggest that it's a pity we haven't got that in, somewhere at the beginning or the end to... sort of give a bit of beef to it. [Liz:] You can get in an awful track. [Pauline:] Cu cut out I Saw Three Ships,... and put Hark the Herald Angels in. [John:] But if I Saw Three Ships was in there because it was one of the few in six eight time. Yes, that was the reason for it. [Greg:] I think it would be a shame to drop something. I mean everyone knows it, it's very familiar. [Pauline:] Well drop something else. [Malcolm:] Jingle Bells. [Greg:] I must admit, if I had if I actually had to say, which of all those would I be most happy not playing, I'd say In the Bleak Midwinter, but [Pauline:] Ah. [Greg:] it is [Liz:] I find In the Bleak Midwinter a dirge if you're not very careful. [Greg:] I think it's I it is. And a lot of people. [John:] I would want to agree, that would be my first out. [Malcolm:] I agree. [Julia:] Yes. Yes. [Greg:] Because there are some quieter ones,... O Little Town is going to be a quiet one, Away in a Manger, [Pauline:] Yes, but it's not the proper tune is it? [Malcolm:] Il est ne. [John:] It's of course it's it's the [LAUGHTER] original tune []. It's the proper tune. [Greg:] . It's going to be very quiet if people don't sing it.... Il est ne il est ne is [speaker001:] . [Greg:] fairly reflective in places, especially if it's in French, it'll do qu it'll be sort of quite quiet. Er [John:] We we've dropped In the Bleak Midwinter, and we've added Hark the Herald, yes? I I'm trying [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] to make sure I've [LAUGHTER] got this right [], because [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] it gets complicated if we're really not careful. If Hark the Herald goes at the beginning, it'll need a fanfare won't it? Well, I I was, yes, unless you... I don't know whether I Saw Must be. Three Ships ends well, I'm not quite sure on that, but the order isn't, I mean the order's just a sort Oh no, the it's of rough and ready one, the order's got to be hammered out. [speaker001:] . [Pauline:] I would have thought you needed a nice... oomph at the end. [John:] It's always difficult, you know, the end is Hark the Herald is a good way to end actually. [Greg:] Hark the Herald is an excellent ending. [speaker001:] Yes,. [John:] Yes, I can't help feeling that would go nicely. [Malcolm:] But either would. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Well we can have a fanfare at the end, can't we, why not? [Liz:] Yeah. [John:] This year we decided to end with a fanfare. [Greg:] I mean God Rest ye Merry is a very good starter. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Yes. Why not? It's a real... warmer. [Liz:] It's a real belter that one, and Hark the Horrid at the end's fine. [John:] Where we could ideally then I think I'd move I Saw Three Ships, if if this is anything like the order, [Malcolm:] The middle. [John:] to somewhere in the middle, because around er play it between O Little Town of Bethlehem and, because that's a bit we need something a bit more [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] familiar around there. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Greg:] Well what we did last year, we altered the order really quite late, to juggle [Malcolm:] Mm. [Greg:] to fit in with some of the other things that we. [John:] Oh that's the trouble, until you know who what the soloists [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] are, you er you're wasting your time, really, but it's useful to have some idea. [Liz:] We've got opening and a closing. [Greg:] Er any other comments on the actual... draft list of carols [Liz:] Nobody listens to the bit in the middle. [Greg:] for the mo I mean some of this may depend upon the availability of music. Well, will Hark the Herald be an O U P one? [John:] Yes. [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] Oh they're always available, yeah, yeah.... [Greg:] Right. Cu The the other thing we need to discuss are po things that actually erm... er I suppose hire or arrangement of music, well the the hiring will be O U P or what we've already got [John:] Yeah. [Greg:] or re-arranging bits and bobs, [John:] Quite a number of these we already have. [Greg:] Yeah, were were you planning to [John:] Yes. [Greg:] Yeah, were you planning to just [John:] Yes. [Greg:] the... O Little Town were you planning to arrange them from the [John:] Yes. [Greg:] what you've got there? [John:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. I don't mind volunteering, unless anybody else wants to.... [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] . [John:] They'll they'll be s they'll be quite simple versions. [Malcolm:] You're going to have more time than us by Christmas. [John:] Oh I see, yes, it's like that is it? [Malcolm:] Yes. [Greg:] So there were two things that er well or perhaps more than two from matters arising from the minutes, er... the Chad for the tickets, I think was one thing that was, [John:] Are we on? [Malcolm:] We're not going back to are we? [John:] I'm sorry, I'm getting [Pauline:] going back to number two. [John:] No no no, that's alright. [Greg:] We're still on we're still on Carols For Everyone. [John:] Yes, I know er I can I just get my bits of paper on there, [Greg:] Yeah. [John:] Yes, I have at last,... and the I'm sure that they lied in their teeth, they they assured me they had written to me after my second letter in March, er in fact, and they said they were going to send me a photocopy of that, in fact er she wrote me a letter in June, so I don't believe the other one existed, [Malcolm:] Yes, you keep everything, don't you John? [Julia:] Mm. [John:] Er [reading] With reference to I write to confirm we are very pleased to be able to contribute towards your forthcoming carol concert. Susan at our Southwell office will help with the sale of the tickets. We will also offer a photocopying service, er at a fifty per cent reduction. [] that's not really enough for us, but still, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Er [reading] Our local reporter Caroline er will be contacting me with regard to any suggestions I may have on the editorial side. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance, one Lynn, head receptionist. [] That's all I know about. I wrote her a long long [Malcolm:] Sounds very. [John:] letter all about it, so she's got no excuse for not knowing [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] what the hell it's all about. Quite good. So they are doing it now. Can I ask,i i this is I don't know why I keep asking to work, erm can I write to Mrs to I think we we ought to as it [Malcolm:] Please do. [John:] were formally [Pauline:] Tell her to get lost. [John:] relinquish our er er I think [Greg:] Thank you thank you for your association with our [John:] and saying that we... [Pauline:] Due to last year's [LAUGHTER]. [John:] No no, we but we [Greg:] very diplomatic. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER] I I was joking. [] [Liz:] Leave it to him. [John:] very simple reason she can't get she can't argue, this is a charity concert, she charges, the Chad don't, and therefore, from the point of view of the charity, er it makes obvious good sense that we should go to somewhere which is free. She can't argue with that. All she might do is offer to do it at a lower rate, [LAUGHTER] in which case [], [Malcolm:] Er we don't take any offers [Julia:] No. [Malcolm:] we we've taken the contract up with the Chad, haven't we? [John:] We've already said [Liz:] We've already we've already [John:] Yes. The real killer will w will be when we try to get her to display one of our posters saying tickets [LAUGHTER] available [] [Greg:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] [LAUGHTER] in the [] [Pauline:] Oh no. [Greg:] [LAUGHTER] Chad office []. [John:] No I think [Pauline:] That's alright, I'll go and stick it out one night outside the window. [Julia:] . [Pauline:] Yes. With superglue. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] I think we'll erm be grateful for that. [Liz:] Dignified. I think so, yes. [speaker001:] . [John:] I mean I think it would be nice to erm Now that's another thought, about posters and things. If we want to coat these things at any time in... erm acetate [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] I know [Pauline:] So it can go outside. [John:] a [Julia:] Oh. [John:] machine where there is a machine that you a [Liz:] So do I. [John:] heat sealing one that you can just run things through and they come out neatly sealed in acetate and waterproof like. [Julia:] . [Pauline:] Then we can superglue it onto her window and [LAUGHTER] it won't get wet in rain []. [Liz:] nasty little vicious streak in you. [Pauline:] Yes, I know. [tape change] [John:] course, things have happened various things have happened, [Greg:] Aha. [John:] Mainly... er that among groups now I've had... a definite offer from the er Sunday school again, wanting Mm. to do something. suggestions There was a suggestion for that wasn't there? Any suggestions er will be duly received, but er we'll come back on that one if we may in a minute, [Liz:] I Saw Three Ships or something in the region or something? [John:] Er n no,c c can can I just finish off explaining why it is I'm not writing [Liz:] No, I'm going to interrupt you as I usually do. [John:] I thought you were yes. Erm... dancers however have now erm raised their lovely legs or er whatever you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Well, I can't say raised their ugly head can I? dancers, yes. Erm, two possibles have come er h have appeared, both of whom er w say they would er, one is is an Appalachian dance group, called Just for Kicks, who I saw at the open [Pauline:] . [John:] day, who're very good. Er, and would make a tremendous din on the Minster floor, and they would be er lovely. Er, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [] [John:] sweep their legs up like you know, an extraordinary sight, er [Malcolm:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] I'm sure it is John. [] [Julia:] . [John:] No, a little like er dolls, sort of marionettes, [Malcolm:] Yeah. Right. [John:] you know they just sort of wave around, I don't know how you do it, it it's incredible. Erm and the other one is a is a... a ladies' morris group from Nottingham, er, sort of clog dancers really I suppose again, who would again be er prepared to come along, er [Malcolm:] Have two. [John:] I spoke to them, Well I think that would be a bit naughty [Liz:] Yes, so do I. [John:] I I think if we get one of them we'll be doing very well, and to get two would be perhaps... a bit naughty. [Greg:] We don't want two dancers, but one one set of dancers. [John:] But erm I I would like to suggest that the er the morris ones are er possibly our better bet, partly because I I I know one of them, er and er [speaker001:] [cough]. [John:] and she would I think be prepared to as she's in charge of their sort of arrangements for where they dance, er it's easier than ne negotiating with someone who who I've only met once er very briefly. So if I may, I would like to negotiate to one or the other if if you will agree er to that, to try and get us a dance group, we've been trying to get a dance group for years [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] and we may now at long. But because they're essentially a sort of er a noisy and spectacle spectacle thing, erm that's why I haven't done anything with regard to [Liz:] Erm. [John:] the Boys' Brigade as yet, although I don't see any real reason why we can't have both, but I wanted to get your views before I. [Liz:] Are the clerics going to look down their noses at this?... [Malcolm:] Well, it's traditional English, [John:] Erm that's a [Malcolm:] isn't it? [John:] That's a good question. Perhaps I ought to ask the er ask the provost. [Liz:] I I I really I [Greg:] I wouldn't have thought he would object, I mean we have used morris [John:] Yes, before. [Malcolm:] Not like you're using can can, they're doing the can can. [Liz:] But under different erm different different er regimes. [Pauline:] [LAUGHTER]. [Greg:] I think it'd be I think it'd be worth asking them. [John:] true.. I'd rather ask early rather than late. [Greg:] Yeah. Yeah. [John:] I'll ask [Greg:] Be worth be worth enquiring about. [Liz:] Alternative medicine's okay, but the old religion's a bit sort of pushing it. [John:] No no, I mean you're quite right, erm Well I think they're not going to sing, the last one got away with absolute murder singing, [Liz:] [LAUGHTER] I know, it was fantastic. [] [John:] erm but I I think er it was the words they were singing. [Malcolm:] Oh I see. [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Yes. But I I think this lot will just dance, er and on the whole, erm mu music [Liz:] Behave. [John:] is regarded as being essentially something which is neutral, which always seems to me a very wrong thing to say, I I'm sure it's quite incorrect. So er we've got also, we pr we must assume the Choral Society. [Greg:] Yes. [Malcolm:] Must be. [John:] Well as as they include it in their prospectus for the year, We can't ask them to come and keep us warm from behind, er keep the draught off us from behind and [Greg:] And not do anything. [John:] not do anything. [Julia:] Oh, they have a purpose, right. [speaker001:] . [John:] fact it might be apposite this year to suggest to them that they might like to introduce one or other of the things that we were looking at in there. Yes. I don't know.... Cos we've always [Greg:] . [John:] well, we we're talking about the choral society, and saying well, sometimes they're a bit inappropriate in what they choose to do, like movements from Christmas oratorios with only organ accompaniment, whereas in There's some [Malcolm:] Gets a bit classy doesn't it? [Greg:] . [John:] Yeah. There's some super things in this new carol book, which they [Malcolm:] . [John:] are absolutely [Malcolm:] you. [Liz:] They make you feel they're trying to raise the tone of the whole proceedings. [Malcolm:] That's right, yeah. [John:] I'll I'll certainly suggest it, it. Cos Peter might be interested in, [speaker001:] . [John:] Well, I'll I'll gladly [speaker001:] . [John:] I'll gladly suggest it. But er [Greg:] . [John:] I have to say, I I won't take no bets as to what we [LAUGHTER] actually get []. No, [LAUGHTER] I agree []. [speaker001:] . [Greg:] It would be interesting in the orchestra, because the orchestra haven't accompanied a choir before, apart from the congregational singing. [John:] Yeah.... As far as the come t to the orchestra now erm, The orchestral solo item. The orchestral solo item, and erm... I don't know which of us thought of it, but anyway the erm er Er, I know who thought of it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Alright, [Malcolm:] You don't think. [John:] La [recording ends]

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Now this coming September there's going to be a mental health awareness week, but if you'd like to get involved before that, then the Nottingham branch of the, want to encourage anyone who's interested to visit them. Now their motto is, A positive response to mental illness, and are heavily involved in the awareness week. They're also there to help anyone who's had experience of mental illness, or who cares for someone who's mentally ill. Just call us for more details about the group, and their next meeting, which is on July the sixteenth. And finally, a local furniture project, are opening a new twelve bed hostel for young people who are homeless. It's seen a the first stage towards living more independently for many young people, and they're offering quick access to a bed for the night. Now need you help, because they hope to offer a lot more than just a roof over the heads. They need donations of books and magazines, board games, a T V, bedding and sewing machines. Almost anything in fact they'd be able to use to help these young people. Please call us if you can donate any of these items, at the Trent F M Care-line, on. [jingle] [break in recording] [speaker002:] A car is stolen every minute, and the frightening reality is that your car could be next. If you leave your car, even if not for long, you should be taking necessary precautions. Always lock your car whenever you leave it, even if only for a moment. If you have an alarm or security devices, remember to set them, and close all windows. Also have your windows etched with the registration or vehicle identification number. This will deter the car thief. Remove all personal belongings from the car when you leave. And it's also important to never leave young children or animals in a parked car, because if windows are closed, there is a grave danger of suffocation. I myself know only too well what it's like to have a car stolen, so as a car is one of our most valuable possessions, it pays to take care of it at all times. Even if you think you're only h leaving it for only a minute. A minute is long enough for a thief. We have a leaflet available with a useful checklist for you to keep. If you'd like a copy just phone us at the Careline and the number to call is [jingle] [break in recording] [Rob:] kept the er the press fairly busy in the last week. Cropping up now and again in the nationals from Nottingham, has been the story of the mongrel Merv, named after Merv Hughes the Australian cricketer, who tried to grab hold of er Merv on the first day of the test about a week or so ago. When he managed to er get in er through the gates or wherever under the fence to the Trent Bridge Cricket Ground. The end of the story though yesterday, as er unfortunately Merv's owner somewhere in Nottinghamshire didn't come through. [LAUGHTER] Maybe too embarrassed. Maybe just wanted to be rid of the dog. [] Er which is the case unfortunately in er some instances with animals, but it's been as you know perhaps at the R S P C A shelter just down the road there at er, but it's gone now to a happy home in Derbyshire. And a photo in the press today of sisters, Charlotte, five and Amy, three. And Merv will join them and their family in Derbyshire with a two year old lookalike, a mongrel named Floss. The end of the story of Merv. [break in recording] Coming up next hour. The first in a series over the next few weeks on Monday. At around about a quarter past eleven, with Jenny. Jenny who's on the afternoon show all this week, for Andy who's on the morning show, no hang on the breakfast show for Gary. Anyway the series is called, A day in the life of your council. Yes Nottinghamshire County Council, kicking the series off in about twenty minutes from now we're chatting with Mick, who is the boss, the chief executive of the County Council. [break in recording] [jingle] [Phil:] It's eleven o'clock, I'm Phil. Detectives are stepping up their hunt for a rapist who attacked a woman at Nottingham's Music Festival at the weekend. The victim, who's in her twenties, was grabbed as she walked through woodland a few hundred yards from the crowds in Park. Security forces in Northern Ireland are on full alert ahead of Loyalist celebrations of the twelfth of July. There have been nine arrests overnight in clashes with police. Up to a hundred thousand Orangemen are due to march through Belfast to mark the Battle of the Boyne. Diplomats in Turkey say they're confident, a British engineer and his Australian cousin kidnapped by Kurdish rebels, will be released unharmed. David from and Tanya who holds both British and Australian passports, disappeared a week ago. The rebels claim they strayed into Kurdish territory without permission. Perry from the Australian Embassy in Ankara says, In the past negotiations with the Kurds have proved successful. [Perry:] After a period of time, the the people who have been abducted have in fact been released unharmed. We would hope that this will happen er today or as quickly as possible. Erm and that when that occurs of course we will er we will provide any necessary consular assistance to the couple concerned. In of course, in close er liaison and conjunction with er the British er Embassy here in Ankara. [Phil:] The Palestine Liberation Organization says it's had meetings with Israel. A statement released this morning confirmed there had been contact but details are yet to emerge. It could be a significant move towards re-engaging the peace process. U N helicopters have blasted targets in Mogadishou to try to flush out gunmen loyal to Somali Warlord General Adid. American Cobra and Black Hawf h borg Black Hawd crafts fired missiles and cannons at sniper posts close to where three Italians were killed in an ambush ten days ago. Reporter Rob says there are many casualties on the ground. [Rob:] Witnesses er who've who've been on to us have described seeing five people dead, and at least three wounded who were being rushed to hospital. Those were the Somalis, let me make that clear. There's no presence of any ground troops in the region whatsoever. I can tell you that that this area is not far from the area that was hit last month, also in helicopter raids, by forces. [Phil:] Here detectives in Mansfield are hunting a man who attacked a fifteen year old girl near a hospital. It happened yesterday afternoon as the teenager was walking along a footpath through Hospital in the town. M P, Douglas says, Immediate action must be taken to boost staffing levels at the hospital where killer nurse Beverley Allitt worked. Only two consultants are working on ward four at Hospital a year after a health authority report called for increased supervision. The transfer tribunal that'll decide the fee for Nigel 's transfer from Nottingham Forest to Liverpool, has been set for July the twentieth in Walsall. The weather, cloud will build during the morning with a chance of an odd shower by midday. The afternoon will then have some good sunny spells, although a few showers are also possible. Today's top temperature seventeen celsius, sixty three fahrenheit. [jingle] [break in recording] [Rob:] One night in heaven, eleven minutes past eleven, here on this Monday morning. Can I just borrow you for a few moments? I wonder if anybody could help me? Cos I've got something stuck in me loft, and I don't fancy going to find out what it is. About a week or so ago, when I was away from the morning show for a week doing a bit of gardening, decorating, and all those things that we all love to take time off. I mean [LAUGHTER] we we spend [] all our life at work, then go home and we do more work. But I had to go in the loft. But I hate doing I hate creepy crawlies, I hate spiders and I hate going in the loft. But I had to pop up there and move back all the bits and bobs and [LAUGHTER] the debris [] and everything. And I shone my torch and I was mortified. Because on the joist up right at the top near the side of the house, the brickwork, there's erm I don't well I can't describe them but cocoons or something like that. One is about the size of or the half size of a football. The other is tapered at one end at the bottom, and it's about the size of a tennis ball. And they're just hanging there waiting to presumably do something quite nasty. [break in recording] Stevie Wonder, For once in my life. Just had a call to say, Robbo, whatever the things hanging in your loft might be, wait until the Autumn, go up with a big stick, and knock them into a carrier bag. I think that's a good idea. Actually what I'll do is wait until the Autumn, take a big stick, but send Andy up there and knock them in the bag. Not me. [jingle] [advert] [speaker002:] We're off to a fabulous start. Over one hundred new L reg already ordered for August the first, and we're taking more orders everyday. Why do more private motorists choose to supply their new than any other dealer in town? It could be the high part exchange allowances. It could be the high no trade-in discounts. It could be just the way we treat you as a customer. Either way the only way you'll find out what the special quality is, is to visit us. Ask us to explain in fine detail, the benefits of Option, the most popular new way of driving a new car in Britain. This August chances are the best price in town could be the price. , wall to wall. [advert] Attention motorists. Why pay city centre prices on tyres and exhausts? Pay low prices at Tyres and Exhausts on. Call Nottingham [advert] of Trent Bridge. Call and you're in touch with the kitchen and conservatory specialists with probably the highest reputation for quality. We stock an incredible range at permanently discounted prices. And we're more than happy to supply the trade and D I Y-er too. Call in to discover what real value for money is, on superb conservatories and kitchens. of Trent Bridge. On. [advert] I never thought I'd be saying this but I'm now the proud owner of my very first home. I didn't think I'd ever be able to afford it, but here I am sitting in my own fitted kitchen, in my own centrally heated home. Up to now I've always resigned myself to rented accommodation, but it's just not the same is it. Always living in somebody else's house. Now thanks to Housing Association, I've got my own totally modern two bedroom home, and at last a big helping hand onto the property ladder. For shared ownership starter homes in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, talk to Housing Association. Two to three bedroomed houses are available now from just ten thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds. To find out more call Derby. [advert] Roads. Leisure. Fire and rescue. Consumer advice. Nottinghamshire County Council. Public transport. Education. Social services. Environment. Covering the whole county. Tourism. Sports. Business support. Recycling. Serving the whole community. Nottinghamshire County Council. For information about County Council services call free on. That's freephone. [jingle] [break in recording] [Rob:] Thank you for your calls about what's up there in my loft. Had a call a lady's just left a message on our reception, to say, Robbo, be careful, it may be a nest of wasps. [LAUGHTER] Oh [] don't fancy that. Just chatting with Jude upstairs here at Trent. She said, Here seal the loft, you know it makes sense. Good morning. Monday morning Trent, it's just gone twenty minutes past eleven. As we begin for the next few weeks on Monday mornings with Jenny, A day in the life, A day in the life of Nottinghamshire County Council. And Jenny recently was chatting by the riverside at County Hall to Mick who's the chief executive of Nottinghamshire County Council, about just exactly what does the council do? [Mick:] It's a very large organization and it provides most of the local government services for the county of Nottinghamshire. So we serve a population of over a million people. We provide all of the key services, education, social services, fire, police, highways, libraries. Very wide range of activities. So that's a big and complex organization. But as well as providing services, it's also the council which speaks for the whole county. [Jenny:] So where do you start? I mean if somebody wanted to find out about erm a house, or child care, where do they turn? [Mick:] Erm well in every case, they go to the individual service. I mean eventually of course if somebody is dissatisfied, and they don't believe that they're getting er what they want, then they may well end up speaking to me, or writing to me, but er it's the first place to start is with the individual service. So i if it's education, you start with the school. If it's er social services, you start with the area Social Services Office. Erm if it's erm er er a highways matter for instance, we've got new area offices for highways matters. Some very big issues for instance, er like, How Nottinghamshire responded to the prospect of the closure of mines. Er other big issues are how we actually make the best use of European money. But of course you move sim in the same day sometimes, from very big issues like that, to very small issues. Somebody actually writing in, as somebody did yesterday, because they want to deliver erm some w some elderly ladies want to deliver some goods into an area wh where tr traffic restrictions exist, and they want some help so that they can actually park their car whilst they unload. [break in recording] [Rob:] here this morning, here on Trent. As we have our brand new part of a Monday morning for the next few weeks. With A day in the life of the Nottinghamshire County Council. With Jenny reporting. This morning chatting with Mick who's the chief executi executive of Nottinghamshire County Council. And Mick chatting to Jenny about what we can expect over the next few weeks, as we spend a day in the life. [Mick:] Well we're going to er have a look at all at lots of exciting areas. Er you're going to look at one of our our gems which is leisure services. Nottinghamshire has a national reputation for work that it er does in sports and arts. Er and that's because of a good cooperation between the districts and the County Council. Erm we've er we you'll be looking at education, our biggest service, and a service which we should which is going through some very profound changes at the moment where we're trying to er increase the resources that are within individual schools so that they can make their own decisions erm about er how they best meet the needs of their youngsters. And of course you're gonna look at social services, which is one of the most difficult areas. It's a great county. Er within it there's a great city and erm we've er g got a very good future. So er I hope what this er series of interviews will er serve to prove, is both the quality of thinking that's going on about public services, and our very strong commitment to the customers and citizens we serve. [break in recording] [Rob:] the road system, that'll be wonderful. [break in recording] The question begs, you have to say, How come when you've just retarmacked a road That's right, electricity board, gas, erm cable T V company? [advert] [speaker002:] It's updated hourly. southbound's very busy this morning tailback on the It's the local information. motorway this afternoon around junction twenty five It's the news that keeps you on the move. Nottingham road works with lane closures both ways It's Trent F Ms traffic and travel with help from on Road. The driving force that keeps you on the road best. [advert] As part of the commit [advert] and rescue. Consumer advice. Nottinghamshire County Council. Public transport. Education. Social services. Environment. Covering the whole county. Tourism. Sports. Business support. Recycling. Serving the whole community. Nottinghamshire County Council. For information about County Council services call free on. That's freephone. [jingle] Trent F M summer weather with of Trent Bridge, where the forecast is quality kitchens and conservatories. [Rob:] Okay so it's being fairly cloudy this morning around er, well the last half hour or so and it's going to black for a fair while across lunchtime. Then those showers dying away er dying away this afternoon for one or two good sunny spells, temperature high today of sixty three degrees fahrenheit. Tomorrow more of the same sunshine and showers. [break in recording] Trent and Robbo, Monday, hello in Nottingham lunchtime. So it's er it's getting very intriguing apparently because in my loft, I am told by a call to our reception just a few moments ago, it's definitely wasps in my loft. And the gentleman who said that it's quite easy but er they need to handled carefully, but you need to get the council in, who will charge for taking the nest away. Now I do fishing and ere we go. [LAUGHTER] The grubs inside the nest, he'll take the nest away and the grubs he can use for fishing. Actually sir, thank you very much indeed for your offer. [break in recording] of the currant bun is down five P and for a period so is the price of the Mirror newspaper. Trent F M of course. Again all absolutely free of charge. We don't charge you a penny. No license fee. [advert] [speaker002:] Well here I am in England and hey let me stop right there [break in recording] [Rob:] Kiss on my list, on your list, on the shopping list, on everybody's lists [break in recording] midday. Elton John and the excellent Your song. Start of the Newark festival gig night tonight. Four local bands play in the castle grounds. Watch out if you live in and around Newark or you're heading out that way, you must get one of their brochures. On page ooh eight or nine, striking photo of breakfast disk jockey this week, Andy here from Trent. at the, at the, at in Newark on the leisure diary. [break in recording] [advert] [speaker002:] the fam [break in recording] [Rob:] and fire on ninety six point two and ninety six point five, Trent F M's bigger music mix. [jingle] [Phil:] It's midday, I'm Phil. Detectives investigating the rape of a young woman at a rock festival in Nottingham are interviewing some of the thousands of people who attended the event. The woman was attacked in woodland at Park on Saturday night. Police are anxious to trace a courting couple who were seen nearby. Abroad three foreign journalists including a Briton are reported to have been killed by sniper fire in the Somali capital Mogadishou. Italian radio reports say the others killed were from Germany and Kenya. The foreign office is warning tourists to avoid Eastern Turkey after Kurdish rebels kidnapped a British engineer and his Australian cousin. Turkish diplomats say they're hopeful the couple will be freed unharmed after more than a week in captivity. There's new hopes for the stalled Middle East peace process as the Palestine Liberation Organization confirms it's held direct talks with the Israeli government. A P L O statement says, A series of meetings have taken place with the personal blessing of it's leader Yassa Arafat. But no details have yet been released. Security forces in Northern Ireland are on full alert ahead of the twelfth of July Loyalist celebrations. Nine people have been arrested in overnight clashes with police. Up to a hundred thousand Orangemen are due to march through Belfast today to mark the Battle of the Boyne anniversary. Ken reports. [Ken:] Nineteen parades are taking place across the province. The largest in Belfast, but the most sensitive from a security point of view in other areas, where marching Orangemen and their bands will pass close to Nationalist districts. This is traditionally the most important day in the marching calendar for the Orange order. At demonstrations they'll be backing resolutions, reemphasizing loyalty to the Crown and continued opposition to the Anglo Irish agreement. Overnight nine arrests were made across the province when minor trouble flared in several areas. Petrol bombs were thrown and a number of vehicles set alight, but no one was injured. [Phil:] New proposals aimed at encouraging parents to take up teaching are expected to be criticized at an education meeting in Nottinghamshire today. The government wants parents to take a one year training course which would enable them to teach in primary schools. But Linda, a teacher and council adviser on education, says the idea of a so called mum's army is ludicrous. [speaker002:] It appals me that anybody in government can considerate it appropriate to use terms like mum's army, with the connotations that that has with Captain Mainwaring and his bimbling set of idiots. They were hugely amusing on the television, it was a wonderful series, but we're actually talking about the education of children here, not high farce on the telly. [Phil:] Detectives in Mansfield are hunting a man who attacked a fifteen year old girl near a hospital. It happened yesterday afternoon as the teenager was walking along a footpath through Hospital in the town. The transfer tribunal that'll decide the fee for Nigel 's transfer from Nottingham Forrest to Liverpool has been set for July the twentieth in Walsall. Forrest value at three million pounds while Liverpool have offered just one and a half million for the England international. The weather, sunny intervals this afternoon but also scattered light showers. The top temperature around seventeen degrees celsius, sixty three fahrenheit, [jingle] [break in recording] [Rob:] Trent F M and Be my baby tonight. [break in recording] minutes past midday with Gloria. [break in recording] Do you remember what your mum and dad used to say to you all those years ago because, those old adages that they used to give you as kids, certainly rings true. At the weekend er I thought, I'll make the most of the er the weather, because Saturday we'd got er showers forecast from about lunchtime. And I thought, I'll get in the garden, get some gardening done. So I got up, took the dog a walk, got back in, bolted down my breakfast, and then as soon as I'd finished, on the garden digging. And I'm gonna be like Max Farnham if I carry on like this, from Brookside, with an ulcer, because I thought, Oh I wish I hadn't have done that. And then remembered my parents years ago used to say, Let it go down. Let your food go down. Sit at the table don't move. And it's really a good idea, so kids, let it go down. Don't rush off just yet if you're having your lunch, stay at the table and erm let it go down. [break in recording] we want to know from you, when only fish and chips will do for you. Okay call Nottingham. We're gonna play some of the most original calls, all this week on the teatime show, from five. The early evening sequence with Tim. We're going to be giving away fish and chip meals, with wine plus A Fish Called Wanda video. Good idea this. The top prize is a fish and chip meal. Off you go in a limo with champagne. So when it comes round, and the neighbours say, Oh where are you going? I'm going to the fish shop. Fish and chips, when they will do, only when they will do for you. Leave your calls now on Nottingham. [advert] [speaker002:] cars will [break in recording] [Rob:] Jenny joins me again this Wednesday on the morning show. [Jenny:] Did you know that? [speaker002:] I've been told that before by a hypnotherapist. [Jenny:] The lines are dropping, trust me. [speaker002:] I can't disagree. Eight o nine it was very very accurate. Ten out of ten. [Rob:] Well I'd say nine out of ten, cos I haven't heard about what turns me on yet. But I'd say [Jenny:] [LAUGHTER] [Rob:] that's pretty close. [break in recording] [advert] [speaker002:] department offers a full range of commercial and industrial waste collection services, in containers and skips. They also clean drains and even do M O Ts. For competitive rates and reliable service call on Nottingham. [break in recording] [Rob:] past midday. There's going to be an open arm wrestling competition at the public house in Chilwell tomorrow. Yes. Tuesday the thirteenth of July. Weigh-in is between [LAUGHTER] weigh-in [] [LAUGHTER] That's what it says here. Quarter past seven until a quarter to eight. All winners will receive a trophy. There will be a charge of fifty pence. All proceeds will be donated to the Centre for the mentally handicapped. Good on you. Thanks for raising the money. It's the public house. Hello to the gang there. In Chilwell, quarter past seven through until seven forty five tomorrow night for the weigh-in. And there's going to be an open arm wresting contest. For both men and women I think. Oh go on why not? [break in recording] to me. Well low pollen count over the weekend, the forecast expected to remain low. Although some sunny intervals are likely this afternoon, there'll also be one or two mainly light scattered showers. Cold last night. It's gonna be cold tonight, clearing and fairly chilly, temperatures down at just forty three. Sixty three is the temperature high expected in Nottinghamshire this Monday afternoon. Tuesday dry with sunny spells at first, then clouding as the day continues. [advert] [speaker002:] Trent F M summer weather with [break in recording] [Phil:] a young woman at a rock festival in Nottingham's Park. The employment secretary tells Nottingham bosses, Treating staff properly will save money. And the government's so called mum's army proposals for teaching youngsters are expected to come under fire at a meeting in Nottingham later today. Those stories plus the rest of the main news on Trent F M at one. [jingle] [break in recording] [Lisa:] well you might have heard stories about elderly people going out shopping in the middle of the night. Or walking around with their clo without their clothes on or putting toast in the kettle. Now some of the stories sound quite funny, but it is a serious problem for a lot of people. Apparently thirty seven thousand elderly people suffer from Alzheimer's disease, and that's just in this region. And in fact it's not just the elderly who are affected, you could be in your forties or your fifties as well. Now it can be quite a frightening disease especially for the sufferers families. Eventually the person may not even recognize their friends or relatives. So of course it can be quite a shock when you discover that your mum or maybe your aunt has Alzheimer's disease. If you or anyone you know is in this position and you need help, support and information, then you can contact the Alzheimer's disease Society. And if you live in the area, you could get involved with a new branch that's just opened in that region. If you want any more details at all, you just need to pick up the phone and call us here at the Trent F M Careline on [jingle] [break in recording] [Rob:] called wonderful world. So it's musical chairs this week on Trent. Breakfast with Andy for Gary. Me on the morning show Robbo in the afternoon all this week. Er bigger than the smaller ones still presumably, one until five with Jenny. Five until nine with Tim. All this week the late show nine until one, including that midnight love affair with Adrian. [advert] [jingle] [break in recording] [speaker002:] one, it's Jenny for Andy, pass it on. [break in recording] [Jenny:] Eighty three a big hit for Toto, Africa and before that [shouting] Take That [] and their new single Pray looking gorgeous as ever and Take That the g older they get, the more classy and good looking they get. And don't you agree with that girls? Eleven and a half minutes to three o'clock in the afternoon. Afternoons from one with Jenny for Andy all this week till Friday. And if you're feeling peckish, well what do you enjoy most as a bit of a takeaway treat? We'd like you to tell us when fish and chips will do for you. Call us now on Nottingham or Derby. We'll play some of the most original calls and give away fish and chip meals Mm. With wine plus A fish called Wanda videos. All fishy stuff here. the top prize is fish and chips and a Limousine with champagne. But you're not allowed to spill any tomato ketchup in the limousine cos they'll be very cross with you. So call Trent F M now on Nottingham or Derby and tell us, from you, when, only fish and chips will do. [jingle] [break in recording] on Trent F M the big mix. From cool cloudy summer ninety three Monday twelfth of July playing The Who from nineteen sixty eight. Now er on the air at five o'clock mister Tim with drive at five and the early evening sequence, and we're gonna chat to him in the next thirty minutes because he's been out shopping today and he's spent quite a lot of money on some brand new clothes. Find out more very soon. [break in recording] [speaker002:] It's Jenny for Andy, pass it on. [break in recording] [Jenny:] afternoon on Trent F M. Hey we got there we got there. Gabrielle, Dreams, and the Lemonheads, Mrs Robinson. And I'm very pleased I'm gonna have a bit of a result this afternoon. Erm I did give out a plea about two hours ago that I lost my umbrella at the music festival this weekend. A black lethal looking umbrella with a very strange hook on the end. Someone's phoned in to say they found it on the grass. Oh. In front of the big top there. That's all been cleared away and er thank you very much. They're bringing it in tomorrow so just shows just goes to show that if you put a plea out on the radio, you prayers can be answered sometimes. My umbrella has now been found. I'm a happier person for that. On the air at five o'clock very soon Tim driving you home plus the early evening sequence till nine. Nine till one for me on the late show Adrian. And one till six early hours of Tuesday Mark. [jingle] [break in recording] [speaker003:] five, we have the latest on the hunt for a rapist who struck in Park just yards from a free outdoor music festival. And also Nottinghamshire's teachers explain why they think parents shouldn't be allowed to teach in primary schools. For these stories plus the rest of the news, join me Ben for the extended bulletin at five on Trent F M. [jingle] [break in recording] [Jenny:] delicate. Desire and Terrence Trent D'Arby together, Delicate oh. Well look at the time you see I did promise at one o'clock to make five o'clock arrive earlier, quicker and we got there in style for the past four hours. Thank you for you company. It's for all week so I'll see you tomorrow afternoon. Tuesday's afternoon show one till five with Jenny. Stand by Tim here after the news update at five o'clock to take you home in style. [break in recording] [speaker002:] and ninety six point five, this is Trent always playing a bigger music mix. [break in recording] [speaker003:] the headlines. A British journalist is killed in Somalia. The hunt continuing for a rapist who struck just yards from an outdoor music festival in Nottingham. And later why parents shouldn't be allowed back in the classroom. Good afternoon I'm Ben. Aid workers in Somalia say today's American led assault on the capital Mogadishou which left around seventy dead and two hundred injured, is unforgivable. Helicopter gunships fired missiles at what they thought was a command centre of warlord General Adid. But innocent civilians are among the casualties. In a violent backlash a number of journalists, including a British photographer, were killed by rampaging mobs. Mike from the charity says, the Americans have made a terrible mistake. [Rob:] The deaths of er these people today er that's going to totally er isolate er the the Somalis from us and erm what happened today I believe was a a unforgivable. Er I've seen er a list of twenty seven names today and I have grave doubts about whether this was a command structure of er General Adid's. Er I think there may have been a mid mistake made today and I hope that this is investigated fully. [speaker003:] It's hoped a British engineer and his Australian cousin, kidnapped by the Kurdish rebels in Turkey, could soon be set free. diplomats working for their release say they hope the pair will be out within days if not hours. Zena a Kurdish representative in London says the two are safe and well in a secret guerilla camp. [Lisa:] There is no doubt about there will be no harm whatsoever. Er they are er they will be er very well treated, they will be offered the same er facilities as the guerillas have or even better fa better better treatment in some cases. One shouldn't think of they will be er they will be harmed. [speaker003:] Detectives hunting the rapist who attacked a young woman at a Nottingham f music festival at the weekend, have been interviewing some of the thousands of people who attended the event. The woman was grabbed as she walked through woodland in Park. Danny reports. [Phil:] The victim who's in her twenties had strayed away from the crowds of people attending the music festival, at about ten o'clock on Saturday night. Detective Sergeant Andy says she wandered across a nearby golf course. [Perry:] She actually went part of the way with er a male friend who had gone to chaperon her. He'd stayed some three hundred yards away from her when she actually crossed over in the golf course into er a wooded area. Where she was attacked by a male er who who pushed her down to the ground, and raped her, and then made off. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Perry:] We don't know in which direction, but made off from the scene. We've had a good festival this year with no major incidents at all, and this has really spoilt it for everybody. [Phil:] The attacker is thought to have blonde or peroxide shoulder length hair and was wearing a tweed type jacket. Police are particularly anxious to trace a courting couple who were seen nearby at the time of the attack. The say it's vital the rapist is caught before he strikes again. [speaker003:] M P Douglas says immediate action must be taken to boost staffing levels at the hospital where killer nurse Beverley Allitt worked. Only two consultants are working on ward four at Hospital a year after a health authority report called for increased supervision. Mr. says he's looking into the matter. [Lisa:] The problem that is now faced apparently is that there is not a sufficient number of paediatric specialists available to give clinical care. [speaker003:] Do you think your constituents should be concerned? [Lisa:] I think that they are right to want a sufficient number of qualified paediatric specialists in the hospital. They're right to want that. And if the manager of the Hospital and I have already dictated a letter to him on this er point and I plan to speak to him today. It's a matter for the management team to address and to address urgently. [speaker003:] Nottingham Crown Court has been hearing allegations that a taxi driver raped a lesbian passenger after picking her up from a nightclub. Mark has this. [Rob:] The court was told the woman became pregnant and had to have an abortion. Twenty five year old Zia of denies raping the woman in December nineteen ninety one. She told the court she'd been with two girlfriends to the Nightclub in Nottingham city centre, where it was a monthly gay night. It was alleged she was raped in the taxi near Trent Bridge. The court heard the accused told the police that sexual intercourse had taken place with the woman's consent. The trial continues tomorrow. [speaker003:] Richard Branson is accusing British Airways of a new round of dirty tricks against his airline Virgin Atlantic. He is telling the European commission that British Airways offers incentives to travel agents to push B A at the expense of other carriers. The cases of five men convicted in Nottinghamshire of crimes they claim they didn't commit are being highlighted as part of a campaign organized by human rights group. Speakers at a rally this afternoon have called for the release of hundreds of prisoners they claim are innocent. We have this from Caroline. [Mick:] Anthony from was found guilty of the manslaughter of a seven year old girl in ninety eighty six, and served four and a half years in prison. He was convicted largely on the basis of a confession which he later retracted. Since then he's been fighting to prove his innocence. [Jenny:] They say I'm not safe with children and that that's wrong. That is very wrong. And I can't live my life with family now and have children without getting hassle from them. I feel very angry you know what I mean. With the way the system is. Very very angry cos to tell try and tell the truth and not believes is it's is wrong. [Mick:] Bill who campaigns for the human rights group in Nottingham says there's too much margin for error in the justice system. [Ken:] The police can't even decide to charge someone, t is the Crown Prosecution Service who must decide whether or not they're going to charge someone. And I think you know, the C P S by investigating the case must always be aware that these people are innocent. Then you have the prosecution barrister and there as you know there has been some quite disgraceful behaviour by prosecution barristers, and then the defence council as well. And so this certainly isn't just the police's fault, this is a very big problem. [Mick:] Today's protest is designed to draw attention to hundreds of cases of supposed miscarriages of justice. As far as Anthony is concerned it's too little too late. [Jenny:] It's very important to me to get my life sorted out. I need to get myself back on my feet and forget all this and get it all sorted out and so I can live my life again. [speaker003:] That report from Caroline. Detectives in say a young couple could have vital information on a d fifteen year old girl. The teenager was walking through the grounds of Hospital yesterday evening, when a man pulled her to the ground and threatened her. The speaker of the commons will rule today on whether MPs who are Lloyds names can vote on the finance bill. If she says they can't, the bill which puts into effect the budget, could be wrecked. Labour MP Peter says that since the bill contains measures to help the battered insurance forty four Tory MPs who stand to gain shouldn't be allowed to vote. Meanwhile former boxer Henry Cooper has been forced to sell his three Lonsdale belts after losing money as one of the Lloyds' names who suffered in the insurance market collapse. The belts went under the hammer in a Sotheby's auction in Canterbury fetching forty two thousand pounds. Henry says he's lost the belts but not what they stand for. [speaker002:] They'll always be in the record books that I am the only man at any weight who's ever won three Lonsdale belts outright. That's there for ever. It is sad but I mean er alright er people have you know some of the names in Lloyds they've had to sell everything they've gone skint. I mean thank God I'm not broke I'm not I'm not skint I'm alright thank you. This is just gonna secure my future when I retire. [speaker003:] The government's so called mum's army proposals have come under fire at a meeting of teachers and councillors in Nottingham this afternoon. They're angry over plans aimed at encouraging parents to take up teaching in primary schools. Linda a spokesperson for the county's education advisory committee says, A one year training course isn't enough to turn parents into teachers. [speaker002:] Just knowing children does not mean that you can teach, that you will be au fait with all the intricacies of the National Curriculum, that you have any degree of pedagogical skill. There are so many things involved. Obviously people appreciate that children learn things and they can help them, but the question is, Why? How? When? What is most appropriate? All of those things need quite a degree of training. Now the government has said that erm if these proposals are implemented, parents would be given a years training. Graduates straight out of university can do one year postgraduate training to become teachers isn't that that the same sort of thing. No in many respects it isn't. It has taken a hundred and forty years to build a graduate profession. And we as teachers see no reason why that should be cut away overnight. We're not saying that people shouldn't have the opportunity to train to teach. Of course they should. But why should women, for women t it will be, become second class citizens, and why should our nursery and infant age children be second class citizens too. The women deserve a right to have a proper training, not a watered down version. And then as sure as night follows day, they will be paid less. [speaker003:] The employment secretary David has today told company bosses in Nottingham that treating their staff properly will save them money and boost their profits. Mister was in the city to prevent and Investors in People award to the chemists for encouraging it's staff to take vocational training. Since the campaign started bosses say it's saved them fourteen million pounds by reducing staff turnover. And the first deadline for applications for B T three shares expires in a few hours time. Analysts say the floatation looks like being a success. More than five million people have registered for part of the government's remaining stake in British Telecom. But not all are expected to but. Our headlines again. Aid workers in Somalia say today's American led assault on the capital Mogadishou which left around seventy dead and two hundred injured, is unforgivable. In a violent backlash a number of journalists including a British photographer were killed by rampaging mobs. The weather. Any showers will soon clear to leave a fine evening, followed by a cold and clear light with light winds. Tonight's minimum temperatures then, six celsius, forty three fahrenheit. [jingle] [break in recording] [Phil:] and aid workers in Somalia say today's American led assault on the capital Mogadishou which left around seventy dead and two hundred injured is unforgivable. Helicopter gunships fired missiles at what they thought was a command centre of warlord General Adid. But innocent civilians are among the casualties. In a violent backlash a number of journalists, including a British photographer, were killed by rampaging mobs. Mike from the charity says, the Americans have made a terrible mistake. [Rob:] [break in recording] [Phil:] are predicting a cut in the level of their council tax. The Tory led authority says they've been so successful in collecting the tax, that they've earmarked a hundred and seventy thousand pounds to help cut future bills. This is equal to a six pound fifty cut for band D properties. The weather. Any showers will soon clear to leave a fine evening followed by a cold and clear night with light winds. Tomorrow morning it'll be dry wit hazy sunshine but increasing cloud is likely to give outbreaks of rain later in the afternoon. Tonight maxim er minimum temperature six degrees celsius, that's forty three fahrenheit. [jingle] [break in recording] [speaker003:] cockney Phil Collins. Oh up the apples pears and all that kind of business. Genesis who's called Land of confusion. Trent on a Monday night. Trent drive Tim with you until seven with drive and the early evening sequence seven till nine tonight. [break in recording] [Rob:] back of the radiator. Can you just get up and look under your seat for me for a moment? No you've not got it. Oh it's disappeared somewhere. Eight twenty seven in the morning. Mm here's Tina. [break in recording] [break in recording] It's Wednesday July fourteenth nineteen ninety three. [jingle] [speaker003:] It's eight thirty, I'm Ben. Police and MPs have strongly criticized an Old Bailey verdict which allowed a teenage vandal to walk free after he'd admitted stabbing a neighbour to death. Nineteen year old Joseph from South London said he'd been acting in self defence, and he was cleared of murdering Bob who'd challenging him with a hammer when he found him slashing car tyres. Three soccer fans from in Jail in Turkey accused of trying to use forged fifty pound notes will learn their fate today. The three say they were issued the cash by a bank and didn't know it was phoney. There are claims that more and more people are turning to begging or prostitution in Nottingham because of homelessness. Aid agencies are targeting the city as one of several in Britain where the number of teenagers sleeping rough is up. Youngsters at a Nottingham school have become video directors to combat joyriding. Pupils at the school want the film, which includes police footage and interviews with the relatives of those killed by joyriders, to be shown nationwide. And multi million pound plans to expand the Centre will and and improve Nottingham City Centre, come under the spotlight today. It's eight thirty one. [Rob:] Thank you Ben. And the forecast says, Although damp and misty at first with some drizzle, the day will become dry. Dry skies also and some sunshine here and there. Temperature high this afternoon twenty and sixty eight. Low twelve that's fifty four. The air is good today and the outlook is fine at first but a seventy five percent chance of rain by mid afternoon. [speaker002:] Trent F M summer weather with of Tren [break in recording] [break in recording] [Rob:] The fee for the twenty six year old will be decided by a transfer tribunal, after the two clubs failed to agree on the players valuation. European cup holders Marseille could be thrown out of next seasons competition, because of their involvement in a bribery scandal. Along with two players and a club official, President Bernard is being accused of trying to bribe a team to throw a match. Finally cycling and the Tour de France resumes in the Alps this morning. Spain's Miguel wears the leader's yellow jersey. Today's sport brought to you in association with 's new supermodel, the. Go and see it at of Derby. [jingle] [break in recording] [Lisa:] Time twenty five to nine. If you are just starting a new job of any kind this morning, your first day, then don't worry, it doesn't matter what you do, the odds on the first two things they'll show you is, where the toilet is, and how to load paper into the photocopier. [LAUGHTER] [break in recording] Robin Prince of Sherwood should I say at the tonight. Tribute to Ivor Novello at the, also Robert Plant the in Birmingham. And Jeff hello good morning. hello Jeff. Drives a red Escort, you've got yourself ten pounds on the sticker drive. Just call reception from nine this morning on. [jingle] [advert] [speaker002:] carnival. Rob and the Trent Hit Squad van will be in the parade around the town at midday. Ooh. you can join our roadshow on the carnival ground Road from two, with Andy. Saturday in Mansfield. is the music with Trent F M. [break in recording] [Lisa:] Good morning, hello, Trent F M here. How are you? All right. Bearing up I hope under the pressure. And don't forget that this weeks prize draw on the Trent F M and draw, is tickets to see Bon Jovi, live at in September. But that's not all. Er you'll get to meet the band in person as well. All you do is send us your name and address to be here please no later than this coming Friday afternoon's afternoon show. is the music with Trent F M. [break in recording] something special. [jingle] [break in recording] Wednesday fourteenth of July nineteen ninety three. As we say in radio, half way towards the weekend. It's downhill here on in thank goodness. [break in recording] hear Erasure, also Happy Mondays and the Shamen. [mimicking] Ee's a good, ee's a good [] This coming Saturday night from nine on Trent F M. this morning at nine thirty Robbo has the morning show. With his special guest Jenny talking graphology this morning. And at one the afternoon show from Jenny on Trent F M. [break in recording] [Phil:] I'm Phil. police and MPs have strongly criticized a teenage vandal to walk free after he'd admitted stabbing a neighbour to death. Nineteen year old Joseph from South London said he'd been acting in self defence. And he was cleared of murdering Bob who'd challenged him with a hammer when he found him slashing car tyres. His widow Diane says there's been a terrible injustice. I saw my husband die in front of my eyes. I was attacked too, and I had to get up next morning and tell my daughter, she didn't have a daddy any more. I had to go Christmas. I've had to go through a funeral. And that man has walked free. And I think it is totally disgusting. Baroness will today lead an all party campaign in the House of Lord, demanding a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. It'll be the first time she's voted against the government and her former deputy Geoffrey says she's guilty of disloyalty. The number of teachers retiring early is said to have risen dramatically, with a survey showing a threefold increase since nineteen seventy nine. The figures come from the head teachers union which is blaming stress caused by the government's education reforms. Pupils at a Nottingham school have produced a video aimed at stopping joyriding. Children at the school want the film to be distributed nationally to schools and youth centres to get the message across. Teacher Paul says the video is hard hitting and comprehensive. [Perry:] We're interviewing victims of joyriders. Er mothers who've lost children, people who've been hit by joyriders, who've suffered severe head injuries. And this is a very powerful video and has elicited tears in adults and pupils. Who've seen it. So it is a very emotional and emotive video. [Phil:] D N A testing is to be used to provide positive identification of the Britons who lost their lives in the Waco cult siege. Relatives of the thirteen U K citizens still unaccounted for including four Nottingham are welcoming the move. Three soccer fans from who are in jail in Turkey accused of trying to use forged fifty pound notes, will learn their fate today. Thirty year old Robin, thirty two year old Paul and twenty three year old Darren, say they withdraw the notes from a bank and didn't know they were phoney. Robin's mother Dorothy says, the four month wait for their trial in a Turkish prison has been a huge mental strain. [Rob:] It's very unfair with not knowing it's like anything else. If you know it's going to happen, you can accept it. Er but the not knowing is the worst part about it. [Phil:] Aid agencies are claiming that increasing homelessness in Nottingham is forcing more and more youngsters to turn to begging or even prostitution. The city's one of several being targeted. Maureen is manager at House, a day centre for the homeless in Nottingham. She says many youngsters who've been brought up in care are often incapable of looking after themselves when they leave. [Mick:] They don't have they life skills to be able to look after themselves. They find it very difficult to manage a budget. On the money that they're on. They find it very difficult to cook for themselves, shop for themselves and generally look after themselves in all the ways that we would accept as being quite normal. [Phil:] Police are appealing for witnesses after an armed robbery at a building society in yesterday afternoon. A gunman escaped with an undisclosed amount of cash after threatening an assistant at the Building Society on Road in the town. Planners will today be told to see if they can find a way to close a vital Nottingham City Centre link road without causing major traffic problems. Developers want to close Street to extend the Centre, but as part of the City Centre ring road, it carries thousands of vehicles a day. Scientists have discovered a possible dinosaur nesting area, and an egg which has survived a hundred and forty five million years intact. A dark patch inside one broken egg could be the remains of an embryo. Palaeontologists in Denver say the find from the Jurassic period is very important. The weather damp and misty at first with drizzle. During the day it'll become mainly dry with brighter skies. Today's top temperature, twenty degrees celsius, that's sixty eight fahrenheit. [jingle] [break in recording] [Lisa:] Can't sing can't dance. I hate that at nightclubs. I'm just the same. And when you have to walk out across an open room, and everybody's watching, you start to mice. And you think, Stop mincing. And you can't. Nine O eight, I can't sing, I can't dance, Genesis. Today is July fourteenth. Er you can see the Jeff Healey Band at,. Kelly's Heroes at the, and scratch Trial by Jury in the, Wild Blue Yonder in the and girl's choir at, all part of the festival. [break in recording] who you're supposed to be worry until you get there on time. I really am a worrier. Twelve minutes past nine in the morning on Trent F M, reasons to be cheerful. And don't forget all this week on drive time with Tim, he'll be airing some of the best, when only fish and chips will do stories. Each night six people will win free fish and chips with a bottle of wine. And also A fish called Wanda on video. On Friday's show Tim will choose one of this week's winners for the first prize of fish and chips in a Limo with champagne. Okay. [advert] [speaker002:] Hi [break in recording] [Lisa:] And don't I lie a lot. [LAUGHTER] It's nine sixteen, that's Gabrielle and dreams. While we're promoting my own show and blowing my own trumpet, er this afternoon Jenny is on for my for me this afternoon. And er if you call up the program or fax in for whatever reason, then you can get yourself a free afternoon pack. What? Yes. And in that pack you'll have things like, er a picture of my granddad to colour. [LAUGHTER] We don't give you the crayons, only the picture. Er also we've got er photographs of the presenters, there's also details of the roadshows for nineteen ninety three. So basically what I'm saying is, get on the blower and call Jenny this afternoon from One o'clock. [advert] [speaker002:] We've broken through the two [break in recording] [Lisa:] Adrian including the midnight love affair. And at one Mark. It's Wednesday morning, it's nine twenty and right now here's a real inappropriate song. [break in recording] once again. I'm back tomorrow morning from six A M. Hope you can join me for the breakfast show for Gary and Robbo's next in your day. [break in recording] [advert] [speaker002:] what can I do for you [break in recording] [Lisa:] You said yesterday that I couldn't speak first. You go first. [Rob:] I was just letting the record finish Andy. Andy. [Lisa:] Oh. Oh that was a pregnant pause was it? [Rob:] I was just letting that record finish. [Lisa:] Oh very good. [Rob:] R E M, Shiny Happy People. Andy how the devil? [Lisa:] Rob, fine. [Rob:] Now listen. [Lisa:] What? [Rob:] Were you going to say something then [Lisa:] I was just gonna say you've got twenty seconds. [Rob:] You've got twenty seconds today as we play what's it called I keep forgetting the name? [Lisa:] Oh no. No. Clever dick or really thick? [Rob:] Alright are you ready for this? [Lisa:] Go on. [Rob:] Are you've not had a look at my list here? [Lisa:] I can see through your page there. [Rob:] Ooh okay. You now have twenty seconds [Lisa:] Yes. [Rob:] to name [Lisa:] Yes. [Rob:] garden tools. [Lisa:] Garden tools. [Rob:] Go. [Lisa:] Rake. [Rob:] One. [Lisa:] Lawnmower. [Rob:] Two. [Lisa:] Glass of beer. That is in my garden on a Sunday. [Rob:] Yeah come on [Lisa:] Er er trowel. [Rob:] Three. [Lisa:] Er hoe. [Rob:] Four. [Lisa:] Erm er the one of the little poky dibbers. [Rob:] Yeah oh five. [Lisa:] For your herbaceous border. [Rob:] Yeah. [Lisa:] Er and that's [Rob:] Yeah. [Lisa:] enough. That's it. [Rob:] What about what what about shears, what do you think? [Lisa:] She oh shears yeah. [Rob:] Yeah. [break in recording] about a kitchen glove, inside out when you have to [blows] blow them up. Odyssey, Inside out, from nineteen eighty two, and Debbie Harry can see clearly now. [speaker002:] Mum. [break in recording] [Rob:] The caravan of love. So every now and again, we've mentioned this on the morning show before, every now and again along comes a song that like everybody here at says, Oh isn't that just brilliant. This is one of them there songs. And it is just brilliant. Andy was saying, What a great song. Jenny enthusing about this. As we now play, on the big mix, Four Non-Blondes, question being of course, what's up? [break in recording] [reading] Cancerians. For Aries today on this the fourteenth day of July. You certainly aren't in the mood to suffer fools today. [] Don't switch off don't switch off. [reading] For Taureans, unexpected guests or visitors may train your temper. [] I don't understand that but it says that down on my script here, from morning show astrologer Peter. [reading] Er for Gemini, another fairly quite day for the most of you. [] And finally phase number one with Cancerians, [reading] A rather strange almost mystical day ahead, with thoughts returning from the past. [] [break in recording] [Phil:] says the seas at Blackpool and Southport aren't up to scratch, but it's given Formby a clean bill of health. Chief tourism officer for Blackpool Barry says work is already under way to improve the sea water there. [Jenny:] This year we've er introduced disinfection. And then certainly in two and a half year's time, a hundred and seventy million pounds is being spent by Water er putting in a new sewage station. But er unfortunately, this is something that happened in the past and the government have been prosecuted for it, they've been found guilty, but Blackpool's name has been dragged way down with them. Aid agencies are claiming that increasing homelessness in [Rob:] we say we have Nottingham's biggest and brightest music mix. I think just some of the song's already on the morning show have proved that. More to come, with the best, the biggest mix. Twenty four hours a day in Nottingham. It's eight minutes now past ten, as Trent F M plays Terrence Trent F M and Delicate. [break in recording] Will be allowed in just about a minute from now to do some air guitarring. Oh. And if there is ever such a thing, air drumming. Stand by around your place of work in a second. It's eleven minutes past ten with Leo and Virgo and Libra and Scorpio. For Leo, [reading] Don't spend the day clock watching or tomorrow you're going to be very much snowed under []. For Virgo, [reading] Fate takes a hand today when a delayed or missed connection may lead to a contact that may eventually prove to be very beneficial. Libra, if you're prepared o take a chance today, it may be the start of something er fairly prosperous []. And finally for Scorpio, [reading] It's a day to make peace with those you've fallen out with, because it really isn't much fun having all that bad feeling around []. Okay. Air drumming, air guitarring here on Trent F M, nineteen seventy seven, Eddie and the Hotrods, Trent plays, Do Anything Ya Wanna Do. [break in recording] in two parts on Central. Was it called split at birth? Some thing like that with er the two kids that were mixed up at their birth. And wasn't it so sad. My wife, my spaniel and I, we sat there watching that with our handkerchiefs. Er it spoilt it a bit when that guy in the glasses came on half way through. [LAUGHTER] Trevor McDonald. [] As Gary and I have mentioned so many times, I wish they'd stop doing that. They're trying to er knock or they were trying to knock News at Ten on the head. One of the best suggestions I heard was to er change it to Channel Four. So you have to news if you want to watch it. Brilliant you can er actually dip into that at ten o'clock on Channel Four. But then you can watch a film and a series on Central all the way through, without having to wait from about five minutes to ten, almost, not literally, but almost through till about er five to eleven. [advert] [speaker002:] of Trent [break in recording] [Jenny:] On Rob 's morning show, join me Jenny this Monday, the nineteenth of July, when I'll pop down to the Urban Traffic Control Centre in Nottingham City Centre, to switch on all those traffic lights. [break in recording] [Rob:] from you handwriting. It's it's quite unbelievable, I mean you sit here and people go away and say, I can't believe that Jenny's just got all that from a page of writing. Jenny my guest at about a quarter past eleven. [reading] Sagittarius, you could spend much of today putting other people's mistakes right, and this will get you down. [] For Capricorn, [reading] You could learn a lot about like today from the company of older people []. For Aquarius, [reading] There's an air of misinformation about. Maybe you're not getting the full story and all the facts []. And finally for Pisceans, [reading] Today finds you at your most creative []. [advert] [speaker002:] [break in recording] [Rob:] in the last twenty four hours, and it will continue to be low in the next twenty four hours. [speaker002:] Trent F M summer weather with of [break in recording] [Rob:] be a bit of sunshine expected and temperatures back up to near normal at sixty eight degrees fahrenheit. [break in recording] hello, taking tea some time this afternoon. Er blonder than the darker ones on the afternoon show all this week for Andy. Between one and five. Early evening sequence, five until nine with Tim. Check out Adrian sounding very good last night, playing the best with our biggest mix of music. In for Jenny including the love affair. Adrian nighttime at nine. [break in recording] [advert] [speaker002:] gets under way on Saturday the thirtieth of October, and for just seventy five pounds, you can be on board the M S, which'll be your floating hotel for three days of relaxation and entertainment. Once in Bremen, you can experience one of the largest fairs in Northern Germany, and sample a marvellous mixture of beers wines and fabulous foods in a great party atmosphere. The Trent F M trip to Hamburg and Bremen. For seventy five pounds can you afford to miss it? Call today. [break in recording] [Phil:] for fraud. Three soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes, have ben set free by a judge after spending four months in a Turkish jail. And detectives are hunting two youths who raped a teenage girl while she was camping in. Those stories plus the rest of the main news on Trent F M at one. [jingle] [break in recording] [jingle] [Rob:] Careline's Madonna lookalike, here's Rachel. [Ken:] Not quite Rob. Well good afternoon. Well we've got a few details of some drop in centres this afternoon. And the first one is based at a project called and it's for unemployed people in. That's an area that relied heavily on mining for jobs, and now the coal fields are being shut down, a lot of people are being left without careers. If you're in that situation, you might find a visit to useful. There's details of courses and job opportunities, and perhaps you can get some advice on the type of job that you'd be good for you. If you know the type of this you're looking for, then you can get free use of paper, stamps and a telephone, in fact anything that'll get you that ideal position. The centre can also give advice on benefits, which is obviously really important when you've just lost your job. If you want to know when the centre's open, and what happens on each day, then just give us a ring and we'll pass on the details. And the second drop in centre is based at the newly relaunched project. The idea behind their centre, is to give people with H I V and Aids some breathing space. And time to either discuss their illness with people who understand how they feel, and the way that people react, or to just relax and forget all about the fact they're living with it. The team at the project have set up some times when everyone can pop in, as well as a special session on Wednesday mornings which is only for women and children. If you're interested in spending some time with people who know what you're going through, or you just want to watch a video, then you don't need to make an appointment. All you need to do is find out when they're open, which you can do by phoning us. To find out more about the drop in centre at for unemployed people, or the sessions at the project, then call us here at the Trent F M Careline on Nottingham. [jingle] [break in recording] [Rob:] Pet Shop Boys, we've also just played here on Trent, Queen brilliant seventy four, Seven seas of rye. We're waiting for the lost and founds. Black and white adult cat wearing a collar found in the area, on the twelfth of July. We've lost a blue budgie in the. A black and white fluffy cat in and a German pointer. Which way? That way. A German pointer lost in the area. [jingle] On [advert] [speaker002:] That was [break in recording] [Rob:] We have Lisa who is the queen of the Careline, dancing along to that particular song. It's the doc, Mister and Sing Hallelujah. It's Trent at three minutes to one. With Annie Lennox and Dave Stewart. [break in recording] [Phil:] a man carrying a bomb's arrested in London. A former sheriff of Nottingham has been jailed for fraud. Three soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes have been set free by a judge in Turkey, and inflation's dropped to its lowest level in thirty years. Good afternoon I'm Phil. Police say they've caught a terrorist red handed on his way to plant a bomb. Officers arrested him in North London, close to the scene of last year's Staples Corner blast. As George reports, when he was seized, he was carrying an explosive device. [speaker002:] Scotland Yard says it was a joint operation between members of the metropolitan police and the security services. Just after nine o'clock this morning, a man carrying a bag was challenged, close to a bus stop in North London. When the holdall was opened it was found to contain a bomb. The man was immediately arrested by anti-terrorist officers. He's now being held at Paddington Green top security police station. [Phil:] A former Sheriff of Nottingham has been jailed for fraud. was convicted of stealing nearly ten thousand pounds from the city council during a twenty month period. And reports. [speaker003:] Forty four year old became Nottingham's first Asian sheriff in May nineteen ninety one, but he was by then already stealing from various arts organizations. He was forced to resign, and eventually convicted of four theft and seven forgery charges. Handing down a twelve month sentence, and ordering him to pay twenty thousand pounds costs, Judge Charles told, his downfall and subsequent exposure was a punishment in itself. has paid back eight thousand pounds of the money he stole. [Phil:] Three Nottinghamshire soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes by police in Turkey, have been freed. The four were arrested after travelling to watch an England World Cup game four months ago. Ben reports. [speaker003:] Thirty year old Robin, thirty two year old Paul and twenty three year old Darren, left their homes in to travel to Turkey to support England last March. They'd been issued with Sterling by Lloyds Bank. On arrival in Turkey, the three became aware of a police campaign to stamp down on counterfeiters. They offered to help, but three of their fifty pound notes were fakes. All were arrested. It was the beginning of a four month ordeal as the painfully slow Turkish legal system swung into action. At today's hearing the Turkish judge finally allowed the men to go free while continuing the trial. He decided that guilty or not, the time they'd served was enough. Robin 's mother Dorothy says now, she can't wait to see her son again. [Rob:] Unbelievable. You can imagine the relief, excitement, everything just rolled into one. It was fant fantastic. [speaker003:] Are you celebrating? [Rob:] We will as soon as they... get foot here on England's soil, we'll definitely be celebrating. But we will be tonight anyway. I just can't believe it. It's the news that we knew that's all that it could turn out to be, but it was just waiting to hear for it officially and going all through these months. The weight has been been un unreal. [speaker003:] Now officials are frantically trying to find the men a flight home. Meanwhile, it's not clear if they'll get any compensation for their ordeal. [Phil:] Detectives are hunting two youths who raped a teenage girl while she was camping in. The attack happened in the early hours of Sunday morning, but details have only just been released. Detective Constable Ian says the girl was in a tent when the youths burst in and attacked her. [Rob:] A teenage girl was camping out with a number of friends on field at, which is situated between Lane and Lane. The group were approached by two males who were not known to them, and the female was asked to enter the tent, and both youths took turns in entering the tent, where a serious sexual assault took place on the female. It is felt that the persons responsible are in fact local, although both youths stated that they were from the Nottingham area. [Phil:] It's thought one of the youths is called Mike or Dave, he's white about five foot ten with light curly hair, and was wearing dark jeans, a dark top and a baseball cap. The other could be called Jay, he's of mixed race, about five foot six with dark curly hair, and was wearing dark jeans and a dark bomber jacket. Inflation's fallen again to a new thirty year low, and now stands at one point two percent, down from one point three percent. Danny reports. [Lisa:] During June, sharp falls in the price of seasonal foods like fruit and vegetables, contributed to the heavy slide in inflation. And the start of the high street summer sales, with clothing and household goods being discounted, also played a part. After removing the effects of falling mortgage rates, the underlying inflation rate, the one the treasury watches was unchanged at two point eight percent. It could be the figure will turn out to be the low point of the trend, although if the pound continues to strengthen, that'll be good news for the government's control over inflation. [Phil:] A hard hitting video aimed at stopping joyriding is released today. It's been produced by children at the school in Nottingham, and pupils hope the film will be distributed nationally. Ian reports. The video's main aim is to persuade young people not to steal cars. Teacher Paul. [Perry:] This is a very powerful video and has elicited tears in adults and pupils. Who've seen it. So it is a very emotional and emotive video. [Phil:] Sixteen year old Francesca worked on the project. [Perry:] The joyrider that we interviewed, he was fairly upset and he wished that he'd never done it in the first place. [Rob:] I went to climb into the car, through the windscreen. And then the car caught fire [Perry:] The parents didn't have any sympathy for people that joyrided, and they couldn't understand why they did it. [Mick:] The last time I spoke to Daniel was on the evening of the accident. From the time the car hit him, he never regained consciousness. [Phil:] Pupils Emily and Sarah. [Jenny:] I've always had very strong feelings against joyriding, but I think it's made me more aware of the consequences. [Ken:] I think if the video was made by people of the age that were joyriding, it might deter them more than parents saying, Don't do it. [Phil:] The idea was the brainchild o schools liaison officer P C [speaker002:] It's message is to think before going into a car. Think about the possibilities, think about the consequences, it may not be you, it may be an innocent life. [Phil:] The school needs at least three thousand pounds in sponsorship to distribute the video to other schools, youth clubs and community projects. Home Secretary Michael Howard is demanding a report on the case of a teenage vandal who walked free from court after admitting stabbing his neighbour to death. Bob died after brandishing a hammer at the youth who was slashing car tyres in South London. Clare reports. [speaker003:] Nineteen year old Joe whooped with delight when the Old Bailey jury acquitted him. High on drink and drugs he stabbed Rob through the heart. The music teacher was carrying a mallet, claimed he acted in self defence. Mister 's widow Diane says the decision's disgusting. [Phil:] The whole justice system stinks. [speaker003:] Police and politicians are demanding urgent changes in the law. Tory backbencher David. [Rob:] I support, up to a point, er vigilantes because I think they're helping to protect society. [speaker003:] Home Secretary Michael Howard is calling for a report on the case to see if there are any lessons to be learnt. [Phil:] It's claimed more and more young people are turning to prostitution and begging on the streets of Nottingham as homelessness continues to increase. A survey of aid agencies has targeted the city, as one of many throughout Britain where the number of under twenties sleeping rough is on the up. Danny reports. [Lisa:] The survey, which has been carried out nationwide, concludes that the homelessness epidemic is no longer confined to London. Mark who was born in the capital, has been living rough in Nottingham. [Phil:] I came up from London. There was nothing for me going on down there, so I come to Nottingham to give it a try. [Lisa:] How have you come to be homeless? [Phil:] I got evicted from my last place I was at. So I was Been on the streets now for about eight years. [Lisa:] Nottingham spokesman for housing charity, Tim says it's a major problem. [Perry:] We've noticed that the numbers of young homeless people who are coming to see us have risen and risen over the last few months and few years. And it's all a situation that was predicted back in nineteen eighty eight when the government cut benefits for sixteen and seventeen year olds. At the time, voluntary organizations like said, If you take away young people's money, you take away their ability to find housing. What will happen is you'll have homeless people on the streets begging. And that is precisely what has happened. [Lisa:] Maureen is a manager at House a day centre for the homeless on in Nottingham. She says the governments recent care in the community legislation, has forced many people with mental health problems, onto the streets. [Mick:] I think it's made it more difficult for people to be monitored when they're er taking medication. I think that's a problem, they're on medication they're all perfectly fine. But if if their medication's not being taken correctly then obviously that creates problems. [Lisa:] It's estimated that up to two hundred and fifty people use House on a daily basis. [Phil:] Sport, the draw for the European Football competitions has given Manchester United a trip to Hungary. Rangers meet the champions of Bulgaria. John reports. [Rob:] United's return begins with a first round tie against, with the opening leg away, while Rangers start at against. And Welsh face a qualifying tie with Cork City. The gunners will face either Odens of Denmark, or Slovenians Publicum, with Aberdeen also meeting a preliminary round winner. In the UEFA Cup Aston Villa have a tough trip to Slovan Bratislava. Norwich are paired with Dutch club and Hearts who gained a surprise place yesterday, play Athletico Madrid. [Phil:] The main news again this lunch time. Police say they've caught a terrorist red handed on his way to plant a bomb. officers arrested him in North London. A former Sheriff of Nottingham has been jailed for fraud. was convicted of stealing nearly ten thousand pounds from the city council during a twenty month period. Three Nottinghamshire soccer fans accused of using forged banknotes by police in Turkey have been freed, and inflation's fallen again to one point two percent. The weather, the rest of today's likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. the top temperature nineteen degrees celsius, sixty six fahrenheit. [jingle] [break in recording] [Jenny:] F M dancing through the afternoon in style, playing Haddaway. Gonna say a big hello to J. and this is a big afternoon hello to you from Clare. [break in recording] big in nineteen ninety one, Colour Me Badd and All For Love. Three and a half minutes left of your lunch hour, quick get back to work. It's Jenny the 's hits, Andy 's slot one till five till Friday afternoon on Trent F M. And I suppose being predictable about it all, I better play this for you if you're on your way to an aerobics keep fit class some time this afternoon, or this evening. Here are the Pointer Sisters just for you. [break in recording] [speaker002:] The opportunity to help investment and to help employment directly, then they should be prepared to cut erm interest rates, as our European partners have been doing. [Phil:] Lady Thatcher's marked the day of her rebellion against the government by unveiling a plaque to the suffragettes at the commons. She plans to defy the party whip for the first time in her political career. Des reports. [Mick:] There was a heavy irony in Lady Thatcher's fulsome tribute to the women who had campaigned for the vote. [Jenny:] Without the work they did, I could never have been Prime Minister, others could never have been cabinet ministers, nor would we have as many women members of parliament as we have today. [Mick:] But she wouldn't explain why she's using her vote against the government in tonight's debate on a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. [Phil:] Pupils at a Nottingham school have turned video [break in recording] Police believe the handbrake on the van failed. The driver ran after the vehicle as it gathered speed, tried to warn people on Street to get out of the way. No one was injured in the accident. The weather, the rest of today is likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. Most of this evening and overnight will be dry. It'll turn quite misty with just light winds. Meanwhile today's top temperature reaching around nineteen degrees celsius that's sixty six degrees fahrenheit. [jingle] [break in recording] [Jenny:] In the middle of your week, this is Wednesday's afternoon show, one till five, it's Jenny on Trent F M. Seven minutes past two playing Jonathan Butler and his Lies from nineteen eighteen seven. So welcome to hour two, the afternoon version of the 's own with those hunky young things World's Apart. [break in recording] for saying hunky young things. I'm sorry I know Andy wouldn't normally say things like that. But remember I am not Andy. Alright then nice young things. Nicish young things they are. World's Apart and their Wonderful World. Jenny in the afternoon till five making sure that it arrives quicker than ever. In case you're finishing work at five and you're not then I'm sorry about that it hasn't worked out right has it. [LAUGHTER] Two thirty we've got Rachel with the Careline. After three your afternoon tea, and the mystery movie quiz, all here on Trent F M. [break in recording] six on Trent F M on a Wednesday afternoon, your mid week magic. A couple of calls and er one dedication to do now, for another person who's claimed their afternoon show pack full of goodies including programme schedules, photos of the D Js. Oh maybe signed as well. Road show schedules and lots more and granddad goodies as well if you phone up this show for any reason at all, as long as it's a nice reason. Er gotta say, Hello and a happy third wedding anniversary to John and Hazel in. So John and Hazel, hello happy wedding anniversary for three years in. Lots of love and best wishes. From Jill, Eric, Catherine, Andrew and Rose who made the call for you. [advert] [speaker002:] For your new [break in recording] [Jenny:] Sybil the brand new one there, Beyond your wildest dream. Half past two on a Wednesday afternoon on Trent F M as we join Rachel at the Careline. [Ken:] Carol is a member of which is a group that help people with Leukaemia and other blood disorders, like Hodgkin's disease. And it's usually help with the disease that her members want. Not with things like the shopping. Mainly it's straight on with the illness. They don't really talk about what's happened in the past, all they're bothered about is what's happening to them at present. We don't give out medical advice, cos we're not qualified for that, but we do sit and listen to them and they talk about different things and what they've got to go through. We can give them booklets, information on you know what to expect is different from other groups because as well as giving people someone to chat to, the can give some people financial help, which Carol thinks is really important. At least when the financial stress is alleviated, they can get on then with going to the treatment for leukaemia or a blood disorder, whether it's chemotherapy, radiotherapy whatever. Erm they can then feel that their family's being looked after as well, so it helps them not to worry about that side of it. Carol became involved with the group because she knew someone with Leukaemia and wanted to help. But coping with the disease can be distressing for both the patient and their helper. I think a lot of people do realize that with chemotherapy, you do lose your hair. But it's alright just you know knowing about that, but when it's actually going to happen to you, it's something totally different. You do try and use them through that, and try and make them more confident in themselves, they're you know people do accept this a lot more today, than they used to, erm and you know they needn't feel quite so self conscious. There is some positive news though. In children's leukaemia particularly the cure rate is really high now, so that's wonderful. And the different stages of ages, the cure rates are getting a lot better. So it's not not not all of it is terminal, and not everybody's gonna die with it. are there for everyone with the disease and other blood disorders, and they always need helpers. If you know a little about cancer, feel you could cope with all the emotions involved, and you'd like to give them a hand, then Carol would love to hear from you. For more information just call us here at the Trent F M Careline. [jingle] [break in recording] [speaker002:] It was the culmination of what seems to be an elaborately crafted police operation. It's understood detectives have had the man under surveillance for some time. He was in a car, a blue escort that police stopped by putting a black cab across the road. Local people heard armed police shouting at the man, Get out get out. He was forced out of the car where he dropped the bag containing the explosives. Another man, a social worker got caught up in the melee and was forced out of another car, but police released him when they realized he was not connected. Eye witnesses say they've never been so scared in their life. [Phil:] A former Sheriff of Nottingham has been [break in recording] yet another sign Britain's economy is on the mend. [speaker002:] Inflationary pressures in the British economy are now under extremely good control. We saw on Monday, factory gate prices going up less than people expected, today, prices in the shops going up less than people expected. That's good news in itself, but it's also good in that it provides a bedrock on which we can build sustainable recovery of output and and job creation. [Phil:] Home Secretary Michael Howard is asking his officials to closely examine the case of a teenage vandal who walked free from court despite admitting he killed a vigilante. The jury found Joseph stabbed Bob in self defence. He'd been slashing car tyres when approached him with a hammer. Ten special telephone lines installed to deal with enquiries about the Nottingham based Trust have been jammed since they were switched on this morning. A television documentary screened tomorrow will show how thousands of children were shipped abroad during the nineteen fifties and sixties. The weather, the rest of today is likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. [break in recording] [Jenny:] One with a tent as well for added independence. Lulu and her from earlier on this year [singing] Independence []. Seven past three welcome to hour three of your 's own. It's Jenny for Andy in the afternoon's pass it on, and stay right where you are until five o'clock. [break in recording] on Trent F M as we play Let 'Em In. Eleven minutes past three o'clock, best time of the afternoon of course, Jenny's afternoon tea. Well on er Monday we had some chocolate cake, yesterday we had scones cream and strawberry jam, and today we find on the desert trolley, just for you as a big treat, all this week at this time every single day on Trent F M, a little bit of something nice and naughty, but we don't mind. Right then today I think I'm gonna treat you to lovely apricot cheesecake. Can you imagine the lovely er biscuit base, the cheesecake, and the apricots and cream all on top. Can you picture it now. Scratch and sniff your radio as we speak, and to drink we've got some apricot herbal tea. And we're going apricot mad for a Wednesday, we are, midweek indeed. So Jenny's afternoon tea, if you hang on in there, I will kindly donate a slice of my apricot cheesecake. But you know what they're like they're a bit sloppy to cut. [advert] [speaker002:] So what makes [break in recording] We have Harold Pugh Harold Pugh. Harold what's your problem? [speaker003:] I've done a terrible thing and I'm being chased right now Vic well more or less like you know. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] There's some fellas after me right who want me blood serious you know they don't let 'em catch me Vic please. [speaker002:] Harold Harold calm yourself down. Harold [speaker003:] Don't let 'em catch me. [speaker002:] calm down and tell us all about it. [speaker003:] Ooh God. [speaker002:] Harold have you done anything to upset them? [speaker003:] Well obviously I have it wh what I did was I put a bit of hummus in each of their handbags right [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker003:] and I nicked the centre out of their biros you know. [speaker002:] Oh. Harold you're in a terrible mess and [speaker003:] Well I wasn't thinking straight there. [speaker002:] I know you obviously weren't Harold. Harold there's nothing I can do for you, but a Cadbury's boost [break in recording] [Jenny:] Slowing things down on a busy Wednesday afternoon on Trent F M. Oh lovely Aztec Camera, How men are. Prince, Strollin'and the Ramones from nineteen eighty. Twenty five minutes past three o'clock. Jenny with you till five o'clock and er as usual it's time to play the mystery movie quiz. Three clues to a certain film, and I'll tell you the answer in about half an hour's time, just before four o'clock. Er testing your cinema and your film knowledge now. Clue one. It is a U S film released in black and white in nineteen sixty. So we're going back in time a bit today for the mystery movie quiz. A U S film released in black and with in nineteen sixty. Clue two, it's directed by Billy Wilder, who actually directed so many films. He's the director of this mystery movie was directed by Billy Wilder. And er clue three. The story basically surrounds an ambitious clerk, and his strange home life, and private life, and work life basically. The story of an ambitious clerk, strange home life that he has with a a lover or two. Er so a U S film in black and white released in nineteen sixty, directed by Billy Wilder, and the story of an ambitious clerk and his strange home life. Which are we talking about? Which film for Wednesday's mystery movie? Think about it and I'll compare notes with you very soon. [advert] [speaker002:] So what makes new [break in recording] [Jenny:] these things on Miss Deborah Harry. Forty eight years old, she doesn't look it she doesn't sound it looking in good and sounding as good and great as ever. That is I can see clearly now, at twenty eight minutes to four o'clock, midweek, on a muggy Wednesday afternoon on Trent F M, and your weather for the rest of today, the fourteenth of July. Likely to remain cloudy, odd spot of rain in places sometimes. And er most of the evening and overnight dry and cloudy. Highest temperature today, a mild nineteen degrees celsius, lowest temperature tonight going down to thirteen. [break in recording] attention, turn the volume up to this very loud. And cough loudly. Rod Stewart, Have I told you lately that I love you. On Trent F M the big mix. Good afternoon and welcome. Midweek magic with Jenny till five. Afternoons from one. And now repeating the clues to Wednesday's mystery movie. [break in recording] love. dedications Hello to Sue and Alan of, who are busy working apparently, from Kelly. So from Kelly to you two, busy working hopefully you haven't slipped off now. Sue and Alan of, Hello and good afternoon from Trent F M. The 's own continues till five o'clock then Tim the drive at five till nine. Nine till one, on the late show all this week for me Mister Adrian. Including the love affair at twelve, and one till six A M early Thursday morning, it's Marky Mark. [break in recording] Four minutes left of this afternoon's 's own. Babysitting for Andy till Friday it's Jenny on Trent F M playing Johnny Hates Jazz. Okay then let's compare notes, let's get this out of the way. Did you get the answer right, thinking about it in your place of work or at home? Wednesday's mystery movie. The clues, U S film in black an whit released in nineteen sixty, directed by Billy Wilder, the story of an ambitious clerk and his strange but funny home life. Starred Jack Lemmon and also Shirley McClaine. Yes you've guessed it. Wednesday's mystery movie, the wonderful, fabulous film, the apartment. If you said, The apartment, congratulations you clever person you. Up to the four o'clock news with Sniff in the tears, dedicated to me. [break in recording] [speaker002:] pointing a gun at er at a ca blue car saying, Get out the car. Get out the car. Another man, a social worker, got caught up in the melee and was forced out of another car, but police released him when they realized he was not connected. [Phil:] A former Sheriff of [break in recording] debate on a proposal to have a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. Lady Thatcher will be leading a campaign for the referendum and voting against the Tories for the first time ever. Special telephone lines installed to deal with enquiries about the Nottingham based Trust, have been jammed since they were switched on this morning. A television documentary to be screened tomorrow will show how thousands of children were shipped abroad during the fifties and sixties. The ten phone lines have been swamped since they were opened, and social services chairman Joan says more calls will follow. [Rob:] I anticipate there will be outcry when people see the drama. And there's gonna be many many many thousands of worried parents whose children were put up for adoption, whose children vanished, brothers and sisters who said, I thought I had a brother. Who will be wanting to know more. [Phil:] National Heritage secretary Peter is being blamed for dropping a bye election clanger after suggesting the Tories are resigning to losing Christchurch. Mister says if they're defeated at the polls, it would hasten a general election which Labour could win. The weather, the rest of today is likely to remain rather cloudy with a chance of more rain at any time. Most of this evening and overnight will be dry. It'll turn quite misty with just light winds. The outlook for tomorrow, dry at first but a strong chance of rain later. Meanwhile today's top temperature, nineteen degrees celsius, sixty six fahrenheit. [break in recording] [Jenny:] singing We are happy, on Wednesday fourteenth of July, nineteen ninety three, on Trent F M and skipping down the yellow brick road of life with Deanna Carol and her Special kind of love. Seven minutes past four. Hour four of today's 's own. Jenny for Andy until five o'clock. [break in recording] on my street at the moment. In about two or three weeks they're gonna be digging up every inch of pavement and every inch they can get their hands on. Oh dear me. So if I'm late for work one day, you'll know why, I've probably fallen down a hole somewhere. Trent F M playing New Order, Ruined in a day, on this Wednesday afternoon the fourteenth of July, eleven minutes past four o'clock. [break in recording] contraflow on the M one between junctions thirty four and thirty five in South Yorkshire. In Nottingham on the A one, a contraflow near has lane closures on the bypass. In Derbyshire, the A fifty two in has a temporary thirty miles per hour speed limit, and temporary traffic lights in operation. Driving you home or driving to wherever you want to go to in style on Trent F M, more updates later. [speaker002:] Trent F M traffic and travel with of Not [break in recording] [Jenny:] Tim with the early evening sequence of course, with more news of how you can win fish and chips. Nine o'clock on the late show babysitting for me all this week, Adrian and then one o'clock till six o'clock during the early hours of Thursday the fifteenth of July, to keep you company, it's Mark. [break in recording] [advert] [Lisa:] video hire chart, update you on the new releases, and give you the chance to win one of the top ten films. So listen this Friday afternoon and you'll hear the latest video news. With video magic, where even the best films are just one pound for two nights. [break in recording] [Jenny:] five hey. Thirty six minutes to go. Yippee. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] [whispering]. [] [speaker002:] So Mr, can you tell me whereabouts you were born in Nottingham and when? [speaker003:] Well it so happens I was not born in Nottingham, though my early memories are of Nottingham, right even from infant school, which er... started at five years of age till about seven. But in fact I was born in, Northamptonshire. My father being a railwayman and er asking and doing various jobs from being ordinary shunter and man-about, eventually graduated by way of He's he was a Lancashire man, you see? And the family really come from in Lancashire? Which is a considerably humble place. Anyway he went about in railway jobs as the years went by and I was born in, taken with the rest to Leicester, City of Leicester, but my early memories was in Nottingham. I don't remember the prior, it's what my parents have told me and the birth certificate shows, of course. And so the first memories is in the meadows of Nottingham, going to infant school about the age don't remember starting, but perhaps I'd be six years of age, and it was a little church school and they were all lady teachers and most of them Mrs and not the Miss which is nowadays er more common. And strange to say, it had coal fires in the winter, huge coal fires to keep it warm, or attempt to do, and most of the classrooms were only divided by portable partitions so that while we went from class to class as the two or three years went by, [LAUGHTER] it really was in [] one long building and quite adequate for the time. [speaker002:] How big were the classes then? Can you recall that? [speaker003:] I recall being in the first class and er a teacher coming to me, as I weren't paying much attention I think, and to this day I shall remember and never forget, she just folded my arms in front of me and says, Percy, you're not listening, you'll have to have a rest. And she put my head on my hands on the desk in front of me and believe me, I went to sleep, it was must have been very, very new, compared to being at home and perhaps being laid there. But they're they were all kind ladies and er the thing that they punished us with really was made of cardboard, like er, er a pointer or a stick, it was a pointer that they pointed to the board when they drew things on and told us about them, but sometimes boys By the way, boy sat with girl, at the desk with two in and er it was quite satisfactory, I don't remember any other upset with being there th th th there were two sexes, we were five years of age to begin with and stayed till seven. Anyway, that took a year or two and I even remember taking my next brother to school, me mother saying Take Frank to school and tell Miss, he's your brother and he's five. So I did [LAUGHTER] and it's very strange [] I remember toddling off with this little chap and er and Miss said, Who is this then? or words to that effect. And remember now, the language of the day, said It's our Frank. And er that was all the particulars I think Miss ever got for him. And that er church school took us to the standard, at that time, called standard one, which was in a big school, about half a mile away and was built by the Nottingham Education Committee and was one of say, six or eight in the Nottingham area, I suppose. And there was a far cry from the kind [LAUGHTER] lady [LAUGHTER] who would lay one's head on a desk [] and say, You have a sleep. [LAUGHTER] And er [speaker002:] In wh In what ways was was it a far cry? How how did the contrast strike you? [speaker003:] Well although it was so near, it was really a mining district and ninety percent of the boys We were at separate schools by the way, the ground floors were boys, from the age of seven upwards, till fourteen. Upstairs were the girls, from the similar ages and and one wing of this big school was infants. Which I hadn't known about or my mother and otherwise living near enough they could have s done that school and gone through from five years to er fourteen. Anyway, standard one was a breaking-in for this er other discipline and not quite so easy and learning how to spell. And teacher would er tell us that next week with her spelling lesson she'd want a new word, would we learn one at home? And er er the week following we'd all [LAUGHTER] have to spell the word we'd chose. And it was a simple as that []. Again, Oh we'd graduated then from pencils and paper, to pen and ink and paper, the ink being in er a well sunk in the desk in front of us. Each boy had a inkwell and er a pen, blue-black ink and so on and some of the small books that we used for writing in were kept under the desk. Most of the textbooks, were handed to us came from cupboards of storage, of which they must have had about sixty each, those classes were always, from then on, sixty boys in a class for one teacher.... Er standard one was er no trouble, except er er pretty timid, remember being timid, the boys could be very rough in play and there was much nudging in the playground as they ran about at their various games. And so to standard two, where the That was th the next year, each class was expected to take about a year, which it did. In st in standard two though, having passed through there, the Headmaster came in near the end of the second year and said because of the number of scholars er some boys would have to miss standard three because there was too many for the class. They could er er er because thi it this would be a birthrate problem not known to us as boys and I along with seven or eight others, were taken to the standard four to start, after the holidays, which was in August. We had a month's holiday in August every year. But to break us into this new er schooling the Headmaster had us in various mornings for an hour and was supposed, well tried, to make a sort of summary of what the lesson would have been [LAUGHTER] in standard three []. And believe it or not, one of the subjects was er the geography of England. Now, to this day, I'm a dunce at the geography of England, I know where the principle towns are, I know you go north to Manchester and south to London and generally get about. But the intricacies, I [LAUGHTER] know more about Europe, eventually [], and other countries, due to not being having a a briefing by a Headmaster for half an hour of something The group of us, he had eight to ten of us in the [LAUGHTER] room trying to [] prime us on what we'd missed for a year. And and many times I apologize [LAUGHTER] for asking where [] various places are, because I just can't visualize Most of the other things from school come without being beckoned, er one thinks of er the economy, they taught about us about various things of the economy. Oh, by this time, er being born in nineteen hundred and five, by nineteen fourteen, that was nine years, the Great War started. [speaker002:] Yes, what what impact did that have upon your schooling? [speaker003:] The Great War started and took the scho er... This Road school had all men teachers extep except standard one, which was an introduction from infants to grown-up and a matronly lady always called Miss, er broke us into this new sort of discipline and [LAUGHTER] sternness [] really. The rest er er standard two to standard six, were all male, but lo and behold before I got to standard five, that had all become women and the men had all gone to the into the services. Because although that war didn't have conscription in nineteen fourteen or nineteen fifteen, I believe it started in nineteen sixteen, back end, and er we we'd got all women teachers who were quite a different problem from a school of that nature. Cos a boy in standard five could be getting on for thirteen. There were quite a few dunces, [LAUGHTER] and er some didn't always get moved on and they didn't all make it into the top class, they had to stop again for another year, or period, in the class they were. [speaker002:] Yes, I was going to ask, what well, what effect did the er er the substitution of the the male teachers by the women teachers during the the the Great War period? H How do you think it affected the schooling? [speaker003:] Well, in my observation, as regards young boys, it er th they played could play them up, the lads would play pranks on the teacher, who would put the best on it for a long time. Worse come to the worse, she brought the Headmaster in with his cane and he was er like the one in the stories, skilled to rule, but anyway his most proficiency was wielding this cane, which was a good three foot long. It wasn't the things you go fishing with, it was a s solid cane of er not hollow, and er I never knew him have another one. But if even if one was late from for school, he had a monitor on the doors to the outside world and when the whistle went for nine o'clock that door was closed and there The boys marshalled in the yard to er get in the lines and marched to the classes. He then dealt with those who were late and those who were late would then appear to be six or seven minutes late because of these other preliminaries. But he brooked nothing, he just asked er, What's made you late? And there's various reasons, whether your mother wanted some milk bringing. By the way, this was the period when I could to a milk shop for a hape'orth of milk, but it's not the halfpenny that people think now, cos the currency's been altered quite a lot, it was very trifling, but it's true. Milk, a little dip of milk was sold, into a jug, there were no bottles, and er you could get some for a ha'penny. And so, you could be late for various things like that, but you got the stick. Oh, so whatever. And er [speaker002:] Did it happen frequently? Children getting the stick? [speaker003:] It happened everyday for those who were late. Eventually, the discipline is such as one used your influence on your mother and so if I'm late I'll get the cane, and so on. So er it wasn't pleasant and I didn't have it a lot either, because I never were very big, and I never liked punishment, it made me cry every time. It did, really. It's a cruel thing and especially to hit a boy on his right hand and then expect him to write with it. This I found, at various times, my fingers were suffering from this wallop in the oh, at ten past nine in the morning. But anyway, most things were like that, I think it had to be something like, In his noisy mansion, skilled to rule. It had to be, he had to do something or they would never have er got In other ways in was a lenient school because as the years went by it was, a register was called, a teacher er opened a book and we called numbers. Alas, I found that, my surname, spelt, was always first on the register whichever class I was, so I was number one. And er,l er those whose names er began with er later initials in the alphabet and we didn't have any Z 's, there were no Zilliachas in those days. But they were some well on, lo and behold, could open the door er two or three minutes late and c er call the er number, Yes sir, er as they entered the class and they would get their mark, this being I think you got a red mark if you were late,t to stand out so that an inspector who came down periodically could look down the register and there was the record of who was early and who was late by the colour of the ink-pens, I think. So that was a strange thing too, with this er alphabetical thing. [speaker002:] So [speaker003:] The only Excuse me, er no, we even had Abbot, A double B, er didn't always get in front but I think it should have done [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] you know, you take the first letter and then you take the []. We had Askews and all sorts of, Astills, strange, isn't it? The alphabet? Anyway, that was a simple rhythm there and periodically a chap from the Education Committee used to come and check this register and the classes, and some passed through the class. But that was just er ordinary the geography of this, or the history of that, many battles, Bosworth Field and [speaker002:] I was going to ask,d d do you think looking back er th th that the school erm tt taught you to regard certain things as important in life? Was it d d d w was there was there like er erm sort of pa er erm love of country or or did they stress, say the virtues of honesty a a and fairness, can can you remember anything like that? [speaker003:] Well I I think the period that embraced my school days, you see I didn't leave till nineteen nineteen and th that meant there'd been four years of war at school and the last year well, it ended in er nineteen eighteen, the war did, so only the last year, but it was full of patriotism and all the old scholars that had er served or suffered or been killed, their names were up. Yes, we were very, very patriotic and er I'm not ashamed of it. Er I have a love of country, I know I'm er English, I don't like to say I'm British, I live and was born in England. And when I go to Wales for a holiday and there are Welshmen, they're just as good as I am, some can sing so much nicer, and I've worked with Scotsmen in engineering factories, and there's no better engineers than Scotsmen, but they don't necessarily call them British. Everywhere I've been, He's a Scottie. Or he's a p er Irishmen can be a Paddy and so on. And so I er never went the whole hog that way with thumping the British, British and best and so on. It could be and sometimes was, but i er the standard takes a lot of keeping up and er Much of the influence comes from newspaper and superior people implanting it on the population by reiterating these standards which often are wishful and they would like it to be so, but er... They were hard days, they were hungry days. I was growing, but I'm now, I never got much higher than about five foot one and I weighed eight stone for a many years. But I was a little person in er a commu community of little person and er my brothers worked down the pit and I believe it was an advantage not to be much greater than five foot in height down the pits. It was the time of wooden pit props and er much kneeling and laying down and hacking away at the coal with picks and there was no mining machinery as we know it now. [speaker002:] Could I? Could I just move you on a little bit? Having having talked about about your schooling to er [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] ask you about er family life and the impression that left upon on as you were growing up? W w what can you remember of your father? W w w what job did he have? And what kind of man was he? [speaker003:] Yes. My father worked on the railway and in my conscious life he was a supervisor, he was called an inspector, Inspector. He had two foremans worked under him, the purpose being they did the shifts, my father did all the writing for the Great Central Railway Depot, the marshalling yard or sorting out the trains. Strange to say, these trains do not come from other towns, say Birmingham, with er a trainload of stuff for Nottingham, they come with a trainload of stuff for here there and everywhere. And the person who had sorted it together at Birmingham made sure that the next stop it was at, the waggons would be at the back end to leave in that town and this is what my father was doing by er er shunting as it was called, or making a train up to go from Nottingham to London, or some other place in the country, with up to fifty or sixty trucks behind it and they didn't want the trucks next to the engine to be dropped off at the first place and having to shove and push about in their marshalling yard. It seemed a simple system when I got to know it, but wondered what it was all about, with chaps standing in different places and shouting and bawling where they wanted this waggon that was being pushed off, as he came running without the train they diverted it into siding, you see, sorting out a train. And it's not [LAUGHTER] everybody's [] job to do that, so ordinary people took the jobs as shunters and could be taught how to do it in short time, if they were average and er in good health. Cos it's an outdoor job, it's a three shift system for those on the bottom, er early, morning and late, cos the eight hour day had come in at this time. [speaker002:] Which would whe around when? When are we talking about now? Say about n nineteen? [speaker003:] In the early nineteen twenties. We'd er [speaker002:] Twenties. Yeah. [speaker003:] er s er but those occupations that worked shift and had to go round the clock had to have eight hour shifts, three shifts. You could have earlies, lates and nights, which many people don't know, and I worked earlies, lates and night in engineering. Earlies er when I worked at the Ford Motor Company it meant getting from Ilford to Dagenham and starting on a machine at six A M in the morning, in the middle of winter or the middle of summer. And the next fortnight I would be on the afternoon shift, which meant getting the same distance, to half past two to work till They were eight hour shifts you see and the night shift likewise had to come a very er a tremendous number from working at the Ford Motor Company at Dagenham ev even in those days, travel from various places. And it's not all honey, starting somewhere at six in the morning if you live eight or nine miles off. There were not the multitude of motorcars about in those days, as there are now, but [LAUGHTER] that was one of the firms that was trying to make it, [] and has done it, like that. So workmen have very irksome hours of work, unsocial hours I think they call them now, one of the most unsocial is the night shift. I've never been in any factory in my life, working nights, I have been in many, but I've never found my fellow men very sociable on the night shift. Actually you go there to work, but there is er a meal break and various things, you have contact with each other, either borrowing tools or sharing the use of them, but tempers get very short in the small hours of the morning and men get pretty tired. They can be It's no comparison with day work.... [speaker002:] Okay. Just to t to come back to what prompted you to to give us that interesting er little evaluation of the the differences that night and day work have men [speaker003:] night and days [speaker002:] to get get back to the beginning, to get back to your father? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Erm y i i is it growing up? [speaker003:] Yes. On the railway. [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm [speaker003:] Well, I find, and still find, the clerical people are remote from reality. They they would think that a man er starting at eight in the morning will do as many and as quick for ten o'clock, as a man starting at night, or at six o'clock in the morning, or the afternoon shift. But it's not so. There's different tempos and I would think er on all the shifts there is a variation of production just because of the hour of the day. It is not natural to work through the night shift, I've worked it, there is no way of starting a week without your Er I've slept a night before, somewhere at the weekend, when the day comes, but you've got to go the next night to work. Even as a young person me mother used to say You'll need some sleep, you go to bed this afternoon, which I did, in obedience. But you know sleep escapes a young person, if one's in their young twenties and they think you can go to bed at er half past two in the afternoon and have an hour or two. It's not on. Er nowadays I've no trouble in dropping asleep in the afternoon [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] but in the twenties I was better at the pictures or somewhere like that, which you could get for a few pence, but you're not walking about or doing tiring thing. [speaker002:] Could I ask you then, when when you? When when was your first job? When did you leave school? And did you know what you were going to do when you left school? [speaker003:] Well, my mother I left school and me mother said, the Labour Exchanges had come into being, er this was nineteen nineteen, they were in existence in Nottingham. And they had addresses and I ran around, I went to get a job at the pit, which er I had no more sense so I'm glad now that I didn't get on. And I found months and months after that most of the boys that got on there had their fathers work there, who went to the office, or asked the Butties, they used to talk about Butties in the pit, and I found this was short for deputy. Not er the th The employer deputized his authority and there was deputies in the pit, but never in factories. They have foremen, under-foremen, charge hands and so on, but in the pit they deputies down there. And er [speaker002:] You passed up the chance to go the pit then? [speaker003:] Yes. Inside a month, I was sent to an engineering place which was er close to where I live and I started there inside about a month. [speaker002:] Can you remember the name of it? place? [speaker003:] It was the John and a very big factory in it's day, in as much as it was er four storeys high, rather high in those days for heavy machinery to be on level like that. And with the war ending the the Germans had had to pay reparations and that factory and many more were extremely busy because they were making lace machines for France. France was devastated and er they had always had a lace trade but we found in after years, this is a point that shouldn't be missed, that destruction by the Germans and the replacing under reparations, I understood the money came from, anyway the firm worked day and night for years, er left Nottingham the lace centre with the old pre-war machines and France and areas, including Italy, er with the modern machines. Even in villages, I known men who've worked abroad fitting them up in in er Germany and in France and in Italy, one of whom went to night school in Germany to learn the language t to get on better, he was there to receive machines. They're very big, like printing machines are. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. So i it was a thriving and booming factory because of this supply of machines through [speaker003:] It was a working day and night and the er just as busy as the [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] wartime until, oh before, say, four years. And then much of this leeway was made up and the capacity being there er, well the hours of work were getting tackled then, they'd been longer hours and er I think as a a boy coming out of apprenticeship, er the forty seven hour week had come into being. [speaker002:] Did you take an apprenticeship then? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I was apprenticed [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and er worked till I was twenty one and you usually got the sack when you were twenty one, unless they were busy, very busy, they would say, You er, you won't get the full money at twenty one because er w I can get a man of forty one for that money. Th there's a t three a two year period where you'll be an improver, where you could have an increase in pay about every six months, bringing you up gradually. But should go to another factory and er hold your own in the factory you could expect to get the full money, which I did at twenty one. I went to Newark and got a job at, a ball bearing factory, and er they paid me the handsome wage of er two pounds... sixteen for forty seven hours. It came to about one and three halfpence an hour. You have to allow the coins changed now, the three halfpence is not comparable with the present pence. But it was very low. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You wouldn't ten shillings for a day. Or it would be approximately ten shillings for a day because we had to work Saturday morning, although it was at Newark and got to travel twenty [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] miles there and twenty miles back. [speaker002:] We Was it apparent to you at the time that the wage was low? [speaker003:] Well to me it was a first time and being an unmarried man that I'd earned anything like it. It was the men there who were aggrieved, who had had better wages as the war had ended and there was such a rush on, wages had gone up, but the once the boom was got over they came down. And by er nineteen twenty six the engineers suffered a calamitous drop from about er four pound odd down to this two pound sixteen. Newark, by the way, was less than Nottingham because it was a country district. Nottingham considered to be more of engineering, not quite metropolitan, but varied trades and factories [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. [speaker003:] and commanded a little bit more. [speaker002:] Yeah. Was it was it difficult then to to to to have to have got a job in Nottingham, you had to go to Newark because it was w work wasn't as ava as as er [speaker003:] As I said the er lace trade [speaker002:] available in? [speaker003:] had er B building lace machines had er had it, in the term, and they started to diversify into a variation of the hosiery, which was quite another speciality. There were other places in Nottingham that had made nothing but hosiery machines and weren't quite as good as were at making lace machines. had a good reputation, although it was a non-union firm and n much maligned by er union people who disliked stand for not er sort of recognizing. You could work there being in a trade union but didn't have to say so. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] See? It was kept small. But they made machines that did lace curtains, lace er is er a variant now, and er probably a thing of the past, but there was amazing things done on a lace machine. There's some in Nottingham, in one of the mus museum, that has the Nottingham coat of arms, I think it has the council house and various things, and it's all done mechanically on a huge machine that er is a repetition in each bay It's probably thirty, forty foot long, but in each bay of about seven foot it's separate curtain. But that machine can be doing, say eight curtains, coming off a bottom roller, being woven over and onto another one, till they're taken off. Endlessly, this pattern repeated endlessly, and the man could walk along and they'd all be working, he just goes with an assistant to er repair broken threads. They get broken, or the end of the line and so on, to join up you get a little blemish there which a repairer will do. So they they're pretty accurate er machines in a a pattern way, not a I found later in engineering where they needed things to the micrometer and the very, very fine measurement, very particular to the th the tissue paper difference between er er one thing and another wasn't good enough. It had got to be as near as thi thinness of tissue paper. We have feelers, metal strips, that are one and a half thou thick, we call it, you can't have them any thinner because they can make them in Sheffield at one thou thick but they suffer and bend by use. If you try to push them under a place to see if it's touching, you'll find they get bent up and once there's a bend in you can't smooth it. So the standard feelers for an engineer goes from about one and a half thou up to fifteen thou, the rest you can measure by other things. These are feelers. [speaker002:] Y Yeah. You mentioned er earlier the trade unions and er you mentioned the the er middle twent middle nineteen twenties as a period of industrial un un un unrest. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] W When when did you first join a trade-union yourself and get involved? [speaker003:] When I er er were in the tool room at, Newark at the age of twenty one plus, you see, not twenty two er I was approached then by a shop steward who worked on the bench, was a fitter. I was always on a machine, cutting, milling machine. And I joined the the engineer's union, one Saturday night in Newark, had to go back there and they had meetings in the townhall, a room that was hired and er was er particulars taken and I've been in ever since. I'm still in the union, from nineteen [cough] twenty six to nineteen eighty three and next Monday I shall go to the branch cos I have an interest in the organization and the movement. I can't say it's been marvellously successful but I do know for a fact that the conditions of the working class was improved tremendously by organizations in the thing which has come to be described as trade-unionism. Er, there are abuses in some and variations and er not always a desire by everyone to belong to it, but the odd man out is often like a bad apple in a barrel. And er it's strange to me how an employer would be happy to have a room with a hundred and hope to get one or two who weren't, either for reasons of information or things that one couldn't trust from a worker. They are not in company in factories, there's antagonism between management and the shop floor. There is also the difference between employees who are in offices, who for some reason or other, I've always found and still do, they seem to have a notion that they're a different class to others who work for wages. They will talk about salaries and things like that but they're often paid, well, very remotely some of them, monthly now, and think that's er heavenly or something. But mostly, in my experience, they were paid just the same as we do we were, perhaps on a different day and a different method. We had to stand in a line. I've been to Newark on a Friday night and stood in a line with others on a night shift at a w wooden hut in the yard whilst a clerk from the pay office came to meet us, the day shift finishing at er, say five o'clock. He'd come half past seven to eight to pay us as we came to work, to hand us the money we'd earnt for the last week, always keeping about three days in hand. So employers, in my experience, even to the day I left, always owe the workman something for what he's done [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] and it would appear in the simple times, before mine, even I had experience at Newark, that men could get a sub in the week because you're actually in two days you've actually earnt two days money and you haven't got it. And if a yarn was spun, or a general true story that a man had to have his train fare to get to Newark and he had to pay this and that, you could er get a loan on your wages. But you had to have qualified for it by working, see? end of the week and the only place I ever had one was at and because the foreman approached me, I'd been out of work and got the job by writing to it, going to the library and it was in one of the London papers, they wanted men for the tool rooms. I got to be working where they made the tools in that of the engineering shop and er I travelled on a Sunday from Nottingham to London and [speaker002:] What year would this be? Just to put it into context? [speaker003:] Yes. Yes. Well, I'd be er I'd got er a daughter, nineteen twenty nine, I would say, nineteen twenty eight. [speaker002:] Twenty nine, yes. [speaker003:] I'd er at been at Newark till then for about four years or so and the er slump had come about and they were sacked by the hundreds, including myself. I asked the under-foreman what I'd done to deserve this, he says You're not on your own, there's er a quarter to go this week and good many next, so that's what it's come to. We made ball and roller bearings for the car trade, the car trade had come a slump and the car trade to this day doesn't want one bearing or one detail for a car until it's ready to put it on a car. I found this out at Dagenham, when I worked at Fords, the supply lorries used to come through the day and through the night with articles made in other factories, including bodies and wheels and these were put on the assembly line and routed through Fords to be assembled. It's quite true that er wheels from subsidiaries in Dagenham and bodies would be on the road inside two hours of having left another factory because they were on the same industrial site. But they hadn't been made at Fords, they'd been made in a subsidiary, taken up the road on long trailers, taken off the trailer onto the assembly conveyor, which er crawls round the assembly line and fitted like that. That's the economy of the motor trade, apparently Henry Ford in America had an upset and er tried to beat the banks and er had loans and he was frightened that they would get control of his business and the we were told that at Dagenham. And it's quite true, I was there about four years and they always took stock before January the first, so that after Christmas came an anomaly, we'd had a Christmas holiday and gone back to work. In the north of England they have New Year's Day but they don't in the south in England, they might do now. And but at Fords we they we were laid off again for this other weekend till they took stock. It would appear Henry Ford had insisted on this ever since that crush, so that he could always how he stood financially. It's with not knowing how one is that one has to go to the banks and so on. Anyway that was their way of dealing with workmen there, they their word was law. So whilst it was a good paid job, for instance ri [recording ends]

[speaker001:] [whispering]. [] [speaker002:] Er, could you tell me where you were born? [speaker003:] I was born in, er right in the centre, Street. [speaker002:] And when exactly was that? [speaker003:] Ah ha, August nineteen twenty four, a long time ago. [speaker002:] And er, talking a little bit about your family,w what did your father do for a living? [speaker003:] Er, ex regimental sergeant major, spent his life in the army. Whole life in the army, forty years. been every thing. Boer war veteran, great war veteran and er air finished up an air-warden in the last war. [speaker002:] And he was retired when you were born? [speaker003:] Retired. Yeah. [speaker002:] And so how did you er how did you manage how did the family? [speaker003:] Well, he had a pension, [speaker002:] Oh, right. [speaker003:] pretty good in those days, two pounds a week which helped things out and er although we had a big family of eleven of us, including mum and dad, er contributi contr contributions from them where, well, whatever they could make, a shilling here and a shilling there. But er they grew up and since I'm the youngest, obviously they were earning a little bit of money in some way. [speaker002:] And did your father have any jobs at all when he was retired though? [speaker003:] ... The jobs they had? [speaker002:] What your father had? [speaker003:] Oh yes, father had jobs besides the army, when he finished, yes. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Very up with the county courts, with being a boxer, ex-boxer. So he got the bailiff's job, going around, which was [LAUGHTER] very necessary in those days. [LAUGHTER] And I've got to laugh it []. Anyway, he only collected all these things till they got sufficient to auction them off. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And then they'd have a big auction for a few pounds where Dad used to do the auctioning and since he was a sergeant major one could hear his voice. If he said five shillings he meant five shillings and not four and sixpence. His best times for auctioning though was er when shops went bankrupt, er especially chocolate shops, cos then we had a good time after he'd done because we usually got loads of chocolate which was a luxury. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Erm how many brothers and sisters did you have? [speaker003:] I have er six brothers and two sisters. [speaker002:] Now talking about your school life, erm how old were you when you started school? [speaker003:] I'd think four and a half. [speaker002:] And th what school was it, your first school [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] you went to? [speaker003:] It was a school just at the top of the street, School. [speaker002:] And what was your first memory of going to school? [speaker003:] ... [speaker002:] What what what what did you? What about the teachers, for example? [speaker003:] Oh the teachers were very good, they usually greeted you with a big plum or something, if it was the right time of the year, which it usually was. Right time of the year, yes, with a big plum. Sometimes they did things to you though, it was either that or you were frightened to death, I'm not quite sure which. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] But you never managed to stay there the first day. [LAUGHTER]. Not for long. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Er did you stay at the same school? [speaker003:] Stayed there er until the education people obviously decided that the junior schools erm infants schools, sorry, er were going to move in into another area and so I moved up to Lane School, which was possibly half a mile from my home. And there I stayed until the age of nine, probably about nine. [speaker002:] And do you have any sort of particular memories about that? About the school that time? [speaker003:] And you see doing th er that er junior the junior school In the earlier junior school we were at the church as well, which was on the next street, St John's Church at Mansfield. And so me brother and I, who was a twin, were put into the choir as probationers, like today's police force, and after twelve months we'd passed all the necessary tests for the vicar and became chororists with the choir and graduated through it. Lots of good times with with the church and the Sunday School. Outings, in fact the choir excelled itself that much we were invited to join many others to Crystal Palace, which which well known place at that time and er it was quite exciting. Didn't start the journey very good like, on the train, trapped me finger in the door. Got a threat from the vicar, You're going back home. [LAUGHTER]. Anyway, off we got to London and er first day at the Southern Hotel. I assume that what it was and then the next day we all gathered at Crystal Palace, rehearsed ready for their Royal Highnesses to er listen to everybody. There was probably about n a hundred choirs there. [speaker002:] And how old were you then? [speaker003:] Ten, I think, might o Ten year old? Seeing London for the first time, not very impressed,I I liked Crystal Palace but tt. Well, we enjoyed that outing, er we had tea on the roof, which was all glass, never seen anything like it before and I shan't see it again since it got burnt down anyway. But it's a good memory. And then we stayed a few days in London and we went to the Baths and we went to the zoo and we went to all the science, by either the old trams or the first of the buses that Cos they complete with tram-riding and that was rather exciting in London, seeing the all the top hats and people in coats, tails and things. Very nice. Got back safe an safe and sound tt, was able to tell them all school about too, which really must have been an education for those since nobody had left the town, very far, anyway. Except for, perhaps, a half day excursion to Skegness which costs one and threepence and if you'd missed the train they had another one ready for you, not like British Rail today, [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] enterprising []. [speaker002:] Er how much did it cost to go to London then? It must have cost a lot of money to go for that amount of time? [speaker003:] I believe it was three and sixpence, at least for children, and about five shilling for adults, return. And that started at Mansfield which had two stations then, Great Central and the old London, Midland, Scottish, which was one of my delights anyway, engines were, er they were to me. I spent hours watching those [speaker002:] What train spotting? [speaker003:] not exactly [cough] since I had a paper round which involved Smiths on the station. So they were there for me to see as they came in, etc. I even managed to sneak a ride on the engine, changing at one end to the other, just going out, round and coming back on then. He'd say, Come on laddie, enjoy yourself. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Now er just er coming back to er your Lane School, erm what what about the school dinners,y? [speaker003:] Oh yes, the interesting part there, in those days, was that the majority of the children were in the same boat, we were all poor and er m the Town Council had got this skating ring at Mansfield, roller skating ring, near the Gas Works, where they provided a school meal for all the children that could there during the hour lunch. So it was er hell's pells for three quarters of a mile nearly for your dinner and hell's pells back and I guess time you'd done it you'd have worn it off anyway. [LAUGHTER]. But still it was er one way of getting a good meal, everyday. And of course the same thing applied with clothes and shoes, they always inspected the cleansiness and if your shoes had holes in or anything then once in a while there were new ones came in and y you were fitted out. But where that exactly came from I don't know, the money, I don't know, poor charity possibly. I don't really know, but er they managed to keep us looking nice and clean and tidy er because one respected teachers and elders which, well, I don't think I've ever changed anyway, but today they don't. They they miss out today. [speaker002:] And er where did you go to after Lane School? What school did you go to then? [speaker003:] Yes, well, owing to the fact that we moved home from Street to Road in, which was roughly just under a mile from town, meant a change of school then. So having settled on Road, moved to Lane which was the nearest school, still in the juniors but by then our age would be nearly eleven, time to move onto a bigger school. [speaker002:] And what school did you go to? [speaker003:] And then at that time they'd just opened. And so [speaker002:] Have you got any [speaker003:] we were able to move into school, which was fantastic as a school, being new with quadrangle and different classes for every subject, really enjoyed that. Big gym. [speaker002:] W wh? [speaker003:] Enjoyed that too. [speaker002:] What subjects did you enjoy most? [speaker003:] Art, liked art very much, reading, still a good hobby of mine, er arithmetic, fairly good, stood in good stead to this day that one, don't even need a what-do-you-call-it, tape recorder, but I have one. And a calculator, I have one of those, but I still do most of it from me head, that's the old way. I'm amazed that people can't read and write today but it's true. We had good education and we had good teachers, strict, straight to the point, the work went on the blackboard, you were given so long to do it, close your book and if you didn't do it you never saw the teacher, but you felt his cane on your knuckles and he knew you weren't doing your work, so you did it. It didn't take you long to learn that. Er but if you did your work they were very fair, probably ten minutes before time they would say er Righto, you can go now. So you had ten minutes' free time, a type of reward, if you like, for paying attention and getting on with it. I can't say I was extraordinarily good in the class, but neither was I bad, pretty average between one and ten and usually got a decent report. [speaker002:] Now er you mentioned earlier about er about a doing a paper round when you were still at school, did you have any other [speaker003:] Oh yes [speaker002:] jobs? [speaker003:] As I said earlier, yes, I worked at W. H. Smith on the station, well, that involved a paper round starting round about six o'clock in the morning. Well, half fiveish normally, cos because you had to make your own round up, mark the papers and then, say, six o'clock and it lasted possibly three hours, you just in time for you to get to school for probably ten past nine. And one was allowed ten minutes anyways because you had that type of job. The pay for that was sixpence a day, very good money really. [LAUGHTER]. But on a Saturday I had another paper round, from the same people, which involved travelling from to the Sanatorium on Road which is probably two and a half mile, with a cycle, advertising Smiths with the carriers on. And from there to, which was another two mile, all, over the estates towards er, to all the big houses, and then back round again, which took s from six o'clock till you'd probably get back about half past ten. And then er that was that till Saturday evening, especially in the winter, then you went back again for the evening rounds. But you had the job of selling the Football Posts and News, the local papers. So you mes you used to meet the trains that came in, you see? And running up and down the platform shouting, [shouting] Football Post. Post, Post []. And you did pretty well because you got a penny for every shilling's worth you sold. Plus cigarette cards if they'd got them in their pockets. [LAUGHTER]. Whoever tells you they were bad old days, they never were, they were good. [speaker002:] Now, did you have any other jobs besides a paper round when you were still at school? [speaker003:] Tt oh, yes, on a Saturday. Yes, after the morning paper it was down to the local market, er one hour with the butcher, a butcher, chappie named Welsh, two stall he had. They were all on the market at Mansfield. You'd spend one hour boning all his big bones they he'd already took the joints off and your job was to bone it right to the bone, which he sold separately, and today you would call minced beef. That's what you'd call it. When you'd done with that, went across to another chappie that came at nine o'clock, selling clothes, used to put his lines up on his stall, he had lines across his stall and for that you got tuppence or threepence, depending on his mood and by then it would be ten o'clock so you'd go to one or two more and collect them jugs up and fetch them tea. The market traders. And ac actually they got to know you. So by the end of the day you's probably earned three shillings on the local market. Tt. You had to eat yourself, of course, so there was a s You'd run up to the hotel in called the Hotel and opposite was a family butcher and he used to sell dripping and bread. His own port dripping. And for a penny you could have a thick slice of bread, about one and a half inches, loaded with dripping, so that was your meal at lunchtime, before you nipped back to do other jobs. Personally, I'm speaking for meself, not everybody could have had the jobs. That's the way it is enterprising. Cos the object of the game was, that the end of the day on a Saturday, which of the brothers could earn the most to bring home to Mum. And so usually at the end of the day you you reversed your procedure and went back to the stalls and took the lines down and cleared up for the butchers and what have you, and then you usually got some meat, or perhaps some vegetables, and various things. So you went home with enough food etc., between you, to provide the meal for Sunday and Monday. And strangely enough, it worked. So Saturday evening was back to the papers and then back home, usually about seven, mostly walking because you couldn't afford the penny for the tram, no ha'penny fares, just a penny,w. Sunday morning, up bright and early for Sunday in those days, seven o'clock, out for a walk and then down to the church for choir. Sunday afternoon, remembering in between this you had a mile home again for Sunday dinner, and back again in the afternoon for Sunday School. And back for Sunday tea, which was very little, usually bread and jam, but er sometimes a little bit of fruit, tin of fruit, rather a luxury, you know. And then back for the evening service. So you your end of Sunday came about half past eight when the church closed down, cos services didn't start too early in those days, at six thirty, I think. Tt. And the vicar was the the Reverend K G, he was there all the while. The choir, and all about it, and the church I rather enjoyed because as as I were growing up most of the p people that came were the business people and the people that were conscientious towards that area, St. John's. And so as I grew up er they knew me and I knew them and I was to need one or two later on, for various reasons, but er you couldn't see it at the time. [speaker002:] Right. Well, perhaps we could move on. H er to, you know, from your school days. How old were you when you left school, by the way? [speaker003:] Well I was er Er the school days from were from er eleven to fourteen and er tt of course during that time we had the opportunity to try and pass for grammar. It's a very stiff exam I must admit, when I look back on it, and we all had a a day off to go to the at or the Grammar school, sit this exam er and since I never heard anything I'm assuming I failed. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] But still. [] [speaker002:] And at [speaker003:] No loss. And I suppose they wouldn't have liked it if I'd had to stay till I was sixteen, cos th the money was needed to come in, so I don't suppose they would have liked it. Perhaps I wouldn't too, I don't really know. [speaker002:] Er so so when you left school how did you go about looking for a job? [speaker003:] Well that wasn't difficult, you had to be rather brazen, you see, and push your way through because although you knew there was a job going somewhere, you weren't on your own and there's a lot more after it. So it was it was up to Mum to make you nice and tidy and smart, like they always used to look after you, and send you down and say, Don't come back without it. And so off I went then and me first job was at the Dye Works, but just at the shop delivering, as a delivery boy. Tt twelve and six a week plus commission. [speaker002:] And what did [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] you have to do for that then? [speaker003:] Pardon? [speaker002:] What exactly did that mean, did you have to do? [speaker003:] Well i it it meant er Monday mornings you went out, you were given er an area in the town, and I was given the money area, as I termed it, Road and that. And you knocked on the doors and you canvassed who you were, they could hardly miss who you were since you were dressed up in this uniform showing everywhere, black and red, looked very smart, for a little chap. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] Hopefully it was either sympathy or generosity [], but still, they might find you a pair of trousers or a blazer, or even a tie. Did everything. And so hopefully you came back at the end of the day with quite a bou bag full on your bike, or a box it was, fitted in a carrier, full. And that happened each day till Thursday and then, by then, you were delivering what had come back from the Monday, hoping that when you delivered, and collected the money of course, that you might get something else tt, which I weren't too bad a salesman really. But there was only two of us and the firm did not want to keep you on, realizing that you could be coming up for fifteen, they they finished you. Not because you were bad but because they didn't want to pay any more money. And that was the top and the bottom of that job. Tt. During that time though I still kept contact with the market and the market traders on a Saturday, and a Thursday, if possible, after I'd finished, remembering the market stayed open till nine o'clock at night. In fact, they had a job to close them then, they didn't want to stop selling, you know? So there was always room to run down there and do some work for somebody else and earn a few shillings, that road. Well more [speaker002:] S [speaker003:] than likely, sixpences, but they mounted up. Anyway, finished from and then had to start looking again for a job. Tt. The next one was a Foundry at. Thriving business, as a foundry, [speaker002:] Was it difficult to get that job? [speaker003:] Well it was a matter of queuing up amongst sixty or seventy or more lads and er they managed to listen to everybody's tale and then you waited. And I was called back and they said Right. You're got the job. And I started on the Monday morning, Dad did the sandwiches, since he was head chef in the morning for the family, and off he sent me down the road, wasn't too bad it was all down hill, early in the morning it was good for you, down hill. So I was taken in and the first job I was taken, by this young fella, eighteenish, big chap to me, but he said, Come on young'un, this is what you've gotta do. And I couldn't see anything at first. He said, Look up there, and you'll see a crane, he says, We're going up that ladder. So being just do as your told, did as I was told and up we went, onto this crane overhead and the job was running up and down th er picking the boxes up, whatever the chappies want, the, and lowering them and doing exactly what they wanted. I had two days of that with this lad and then off he went. He said, Right, that is yours. [speaker002:] And er? [speaker003:] Well I wasn't that nervous, but er I had a go and after an hour or so I got quite confident on me own then. Fun and games till the afternoon when we started to blow the furnaces and that was the happy time. Tap, tap, tap, sparks flying everywhere and we were just above it with the cranes, waiting to fill the big ladles. So we'd fill them and we couldn't see anyway,lookin We couldn't look down and see, we had to wait for the foreman shouting all the instructions, move left, forward or up or down. Cos the molten metal blinded you anyway, no glasses or anything then. And then we had to wait while they poured them in the moulds, but if the moulds failed, and they were rather big, they was full of air-holes and they used to turn it all into a fine just l l pebbles of molten metal, straight back up at you, and you couldn't move cos if you moved your crane then somebody would have been killed with out the ladles. So it was a matter of keeping calm, collective and getting burnt. Soon learnt [speaker002:] Did you? [speaker003:] to overcome that, though, an old overcoat to chuck over me head and just work blind. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] But it worked. [] And I quite enjoyed that too. [speaker002:] Er did you remember any sort of accidents of where anything was dropped, or anything like that, with molten metal? [speaker003:] Did I get burnt? [speaker002:] Do you remember any accidents at the? [speaker003:] No. Very fortunate. That was the amazing thing about it, it all went always worked well. It was the chappies that got the trouble for for making a bad mould. No, we had no accidents, the only one I had was er when I'd been right to the top, with the other crane an and it was a long shop, and everyone had done with me during the morning, so I hoisted the crane up, pulled it in towards me and set myself going down the shop, put it in full speed. I knew exactly where to stop it so that I could get off and go down the ladder, sneak a cup of tea or something. So I'm zooming down, which I thought must have been fifty mile an hour, but it was probably only about five really, or ten, but er put the brake on for the platform to stop, no chance, it just kept going. Whirring away, boom. It hit then end of the shop and the wheels finished up out in the park next door. [LAUGHTER]. With this little foreman threatening fists and everybody running out of the way of the brickwork. Didn't get the sack though. No, it got repaired. Just had to leave because Dad says If you're not working there for eight and sixpence a week, when you had to leave one job at twelve and six. [speaker002:] Mm. What kind of hours were you working for that money? [speaker003:] And the hours were half past seven to twelve and one till half past five. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And when I t when I got on a Friday and and paid me wages over to me Mum, which was natural for you to do, I always got th thre three pennies back. Threepence. That's very good really. [speaker002:] And what did you do with your spending money? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. It was that good you daren't do anything it, so hide it. I used to hide these three pennies because er not being used to having anything for nothing, when I'd got two or three coppers, I'd d I'd find a little hiding place outside and this house had an outside wash house in the back and I used to hide them. Of course, I realize today, the place I hid them in everybody must have known where they were cos I was small and having to reach, and the large ones must have seen they were there anyway, [LAUGHTER] but er it didn't dawn on me then []. But aft after that he made us leave and says Well,y there's no jobs. So you can up to the colliery and see if you can get one there. Lots of friends were at collieries because they were colliers's sons anyway tt and er so we went down about a job. Got set on straight away. [speaker002:] This is at colliery? [speaker003:] No, this is at colliery er which is five mile from. Get set on but er [speaker002:] How did you manage to get thr to that distance then? [speaker003:] Walked there for a start. Walked through the forest and came out right in the colliery yard. Got the job and they said Right. Start next week. There were no bass there then, no bass. And we started, they gave you a helmet, we had to buy a canteen to put your water in and a metal box to put your sandwiches in and then they took us down. [speaker002:] And wh what wages were they? [speaker003:] The wages varied on the work. Th the work [speaker002:] at when you started? [speaker003:] Yeah well there was no guaranteed wage, you see, because er there was no guaranteed work. You g you could get down and just start and with the one hour the blower would go and knock you off. But it was coming up to thirty nineish and the war breaking out so the one and a half days a week started to change to five days, which gave you a w a regular wages of about thirty shillings. And er one was able to travel on the bus then, at sixpence a day, return, which is very good. The buses are that efficient, buses, that if you miss one, within five minutes there was another one cos most of them were colliers and that's where they were going. Lots of buses, lots of work. [speaker002:] Now what [speaker003:] Never did you any harm but er lots of it. [speaker002:] What was your first job then when you went down to the pit? [speaker003:] Well they always started the lads right at the pit bottom and in those days ev everybody was crackers down there in those days, they were all mad, tearing about. And when it started to wind, they'd bang the coal on, they'd bang the empties off and my job was to er [cough] tt push the empties, split them, split the empties, [speaker002:] Into? [speaker003:] so many to one row and so many to another. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Couple them up, send them off. But being me I couldn't stand that very long, may be two or three months, and I asked to be moved. And which was termed, Going down the roads. Er because the pit bottom was lit up and it meant going down into the dark, an exciting thought for a young fella, er and so off I went and I was put down on one of the faces, as a lad, and said, Right lad, you want to be collier? We'll show you. You start with him, at that gate end, and he'll show you how to go on, that chappie there. And your job to clean the bells, keep them clear, while he's chopping his coal out and that and you'll be alright. Well I started a clear, er the chap came and showed me, he says, [shouting] You're alright lad, he said, This is how you do it [], Ten shovels and it was clear. I thought, Oh, that's not bad at all. So I bent down to clear it and gradually it crept up me legs to me knees, [shouting] What's the matter lad? [] I can't keep cope with this? He says I'll show you, give me the shovel. again, There you are. Well, ten minutes later it was still up to me knees, I said, I can't keep this up and he shouted something down to somebody else, who shouted to somebody else, Put your sprags back lads. And apparently these other lads further down, to the tune of about a hundred and fifty yards, had all lifted the boards up on the belt and so all their slack and that was coming to me. And since it was the end of the belt I couldn't get i go by anybody with me, I had to move it. tt So I chucked the shovel down, and climbed out off the face and sat in there and cried and cried and cried. Backache, despondent and everything else but the comfort of the chappie that was training me, he said, Come on lad, you'll be alright. And he was right, I was, I mastered it. I'd learnt me lesson with the others, they didn't work it on me again like that. So I stayed with him for quite while until I was able to tackle my own half a stint, not a full stint, which was nine yards. Four and a half yards, which you could tackle as a lad and then they er paid you for what you did. Which was interesting at that time, since it came out of a tin and not out of an office. Er the butty paid you, you see, out of his tin, what he thought fit and he gave me ten shillings for the first one I done, first day I done, and I told me Dad when I got home, he says, Ten shillings? What have you been doing? and I explained. And he said, Right, I'll come with you. Next Friday when you go to get your money, cos I wasn't always with the collier, mostly I was on the day work. They were supposed to be doing me a favour, giving me that work, four and a half yards. But anyway, he came up on the Monday er sorry, on the Friday when they was paying out, he said, Which chappie paid you? I said He's down there, paying those That's him. So he tapped him on the shoulder and Dad being a big chap with big chest just said er S Do you know my lad? He said, Yes, I know him. He says, Did you pay him last week for what he did? He said, I paid him. He says, How much did you pay him? He said, Ten shillings. He said, How much did you pay the others? He says, What's that to you? He said, Look, I'm his Dad, what did you pay the others? He said, Two pounds. And he says, Right, pay him two pounds. And I mean it. Well he had second thoughts and then he changed his mi, he put his hand in and said, There you are. Unfortunately I lost me job then on the face, having done that to the butty, I didn't get back four yards, or whatever it was. So then I decided I would like to be that I knew there was a job going on the electricians, so I thought well I'll I'll go in for the electrical side. Which involved going to evening classes and er then back to work and this involved nights regular, so it was a bit a bit of a dash, sleeping, evening class and then catching a bus which the first one, nine o'clock and to the colliery and starting. [speaker002:] And what hours were you doing then? [speaker003:] Well they were nine till seven, really six, but mostly seven o'clock before you got away and it involved wiring er coal cutting machines. You worked with the electrician as his mate, very interesting work. Unfortunately it came to a sudden stop, got too efficient at it, you see, and er got done too early. And where the electrician's shop was wa was the stables for the horses, nice, friendly animals they were too. Well We came in one morning, the electrician and I, about five instead of seven, because we'd done and er we used to nip in and kip down with the horses for ten minutes which was forbidden, to sleep in the colliery. [LAUGHTER]. So at seven o'clock we're asleep with the horses when the day shift come on, couldn't find us. Course one of the problems was you were checked in and checked out and if er you hadn't come out there was a bit of a panic, Where is the person? Where is his er number like? But anyway, reprimanded for that, didn't get sack but er had to [LAUGHTER] move on to other things [] and that meant to me decided [speaker002:] What? [speaker003:] to become one of the cutting team. [speaker002:] Yeah. And w how much were you getting as an electrician then? [speaker003:] Oh, it's a basic wage but it increased to about two pounds fifty or something, because of the status of the job. [speaker002:] And how long did you actually do that job for? [speaker003:] Oh, it was eighteen months I should imagine, I was doing quite well, I'd been praised by the head electrician and everything, for further advancement till er that particular incident stopped it. [LAUGHTER]. And this is why I choose the cutters because it was mechanically and er I I was quite with it, I was able to sort of get it going if it stopped, one road or another. Perhaps n not quite orthodox, but it went. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Erm can you tell me where you were born and when please. [speaker002:] Street, off Road in nineteen erm let's see. [speaker003:] You're eighty nine so... eighteen ninety six would it be? [speaker002:] Four. [speaker003:] Eighteen ninety four. [speaker002:] That's it eighteen ninety four was when I was born. [speaker003:] Can you remember anything about the house you were born in? [speaker002:] Oh it was an ordinary er street row of houses. [speaker003:] Terraced houses? [speaker002:] , they're all attached you know. Just all two up and two down was where I was born and er I was er christened at Church by Canon. [speaker003:] Did you have any brothers and sisters? [speaker002:] I had two brothers. [speaker003:] Were they older or younger than you? [speaker002:] One was two years older than me and the other was five years younger than me. And they've er they've both died and one was killed in the First World War. And the other one er died at home. After the Second World War. But they both were in the services. [speaker003:] In the First World War? [speaker002:] Yes, and er my younger brother was in the Second World War. [speaker003:] Can you remember much about the house, how, how long did you live there for? [speaker002:] Oh I should say we'd lived there ten years. And it was there that my father started his er lace factory. He er he used to work from four in the morning till ten o'clock at night and he used to doss in the factory, didn't come home, [speaker003:] Where was the factory? [speaker002:] The factory was in er Str, Street, Factory in Street, up off Road. And he'd er worked himself up from one lace machine until he'd got twelve. And then er the the the lace trade he he worked on, when women wore high collars, boned high collars and he made the little narrow edging lace about like that and it was goffered so it made a frill round the face. And he er he'd made all that lace, well then instead of him going in the First World War and making the net which was used you see his lace trade all went. Well then he started at, in a factory there at with er more modern machines, but the factory was too cold, a factory has to be a certain heat to work the lace machines properly. And he came back to er and started again and er he'd just er er the big manufacturer engineering er people made us lace machines then and they started him off with three, and he'd paid off one and part of the other when he died. And it was the First World War that killed him, he had a brain damage, you know a stroke. And died. [speaker003:] Was he actually fighting in the First World War or? [speaker002:] My father, no, no he was too old then, no my brothers both were but er. No me elder brother was, not me second brother, that was the Second World War he was in. Me elder brother was in the First World War and he er he got married and er she was a flighty sort of girl and she wasn't attending to er Mabel properly, the little girl, she had a girl and a boy. And er she asked us to have her. He did before he went away, asked her if we'd look after her and we had her until she was seven years old. We brought her up practically. I made all her clothes. I remember making her a little black satin coat and Dutch bonnet with things sticking out and all edged with lace and it was all er black satin and underneath the bonnet was er pleated er blue chiffon. [speaker003:] Did your mother make your clothes when you were a child? [speaker002:] My clothes?... Yes she did. Yes she made my clothes. Until I was old enough to make my own. And er I started er with a doll, my father bought me a doll and it taught me how to er dress me. And they used to buy me new material to encourage me and I learnt how to sew from that. [speaker003:] Was this something you did after school in the evenings? [speaker002:] Well then I went to a private school on Road, two maiden ladies kept that, and we were taught to er walk properly, sit properly, dance, music, learnt the piano there, and embroider, and erm chiefly the educational side of schooling was almost non-existent. [speaker003:] What age were you when you went there? [speaker002:] Well I was there pretty well until I, fourteen, until I left school. [speaker003:] Did you go there from five? [speaker002:] I went, no, no, I went there from er I think I should be somewhere about ten. [speaker003:] Where did you go before then? [speaker002:] Well er School, but I never went to school not un, at five. As far as I can remember that. I've never seen, I I only remember schooling from this school. And I remember going to er Road School for a month and we caught ringworms there. And er we left and we never went back there, that's when I went to the private school. And my brothers both went to er, a headmaster from the high school set up on his own and they both went there, and that was at the corner of Avenue on Road. Cos we lived at the top of the second hill, opposite erm Doctor s er house, the famous eye surgeon. That photograph that I've got where it's all snowy's his house and we lived just opposite. [speaker003:] When did you move up there? [speaker002:] Ooh I don't know what age I'd be when we went up there. [speaker003:] You say you were about ten. [speaker002:] I should say about ten. [speaker003:] And was that a much bigger house than the one in, on Street [speaker002:] Oh yes that was ordinary er row of houses, the one at was a detached house, stood in it's own grounds. And I remember four stone steps led up to the front door, and we'd what they called a parlour then. And then my parents had a big er lean- to built at the side of the house and we had a full size billiard table in there. And it, they used to entertain ever such a lot my parents did. [speaker003:] What did they do? Have parties and [speaker002:] Enter Ooh and we had some marvellous parties. And there was a, two friends of theirs who were courting and he'd got a pimple on the end of his nose. And from that he was king of the pimps. And then we had this man that used to come from India and he was called the Viceroy of India. And they'd all got er status symbols you see and it was quite a ceremonial thing that they used to have. And we had marvellous Christmas parties too. And we had a house full of people at Christmas time. [speaker003:] Were these people who were staying at the house? [speaker002:] We had er they were sleeping all over everywhere at Christmas time, on the floor, seem to remember dozens of people then and we kept two maids then and a gardener. At that time. [speaker003:] And did they all live in the house as well. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Where wold the maids sleep? Did they they had sep [speaker002:] They slept in the same bedroom as me because we were er limited to bedroom space but we had girls because we were doing such a lot of entertaining, there was a lot of work. [speaker003:] What were they like the two the maids, were they young girls? [speaker002:] we never thought anything about it you know. They were not er they were old enough to to work, they were much older than me. In fact when I er er periods started it was them that told me all about it not me mother and didn't never think then about st er sex or anything, not a thing, I was as innocent as day was born when I was eighteen. the difference of children of today. [speaker003:] Were you quite, you were friendly with the maids then, was it like [speaker002:] Oh very friendly with them, yes. I tell you they did more for me than my own mother did. Yes they were very friendly. [speaker003:] What sort of work did the maids do in the house? Did they do everything? [speaker002:] They did everything, yes, cooking and all the lot. One cooked and the other one house worked. Mother didn't do any. [speaker003:] What did your mother do then? [speaker002:] Just a lady of leisure. Er [speaker003:] What would she go shopping and things like that? [speaker002:] Er every night they used to play cards and when I was eighteen my father made me learn cards. He made me play cards, I'd played ordinary auction bridge at that time. But he made me do it, I didn't want to do it, but he he he made me do it. So we used to play auction bridge every night. Not as it's played today though. It's played totally different today, ours was quite mediocre to how it's played today. [speaker003:] Were you always included in your parents parties even from when you were younger? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes, yes. We and we had some marvellous Christmas parties because we used to play all sorts of games. And I remember one game in particular it always stuck in me mind. Somebody used to sit on the carpet at one end of the room with a walking stick and a chalk mark in front of him and the contestants used to have to come up to him and try to rub the marking out and he used to rap the hands with his walking stick. I can remember that game ever so well. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] It must have been a bit painful. [speaker002:] Well you used to be as cute as they were, you used to watch fingers, you didn't get them rattled. Yes you were just as cute as they were. [speaker003:] Did it have a name, that game? [speaker002:] If it did I don't remember it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] What about any other games? [speaker002:] yes, we used to play consequences. [speaker003:] What, with a bit of paper? [speaker002:] Yes you know. And pass them round and everybody used to write differently. Y that still is a good game to play today. You can have a real old giggle at that. Real fun. But er I don't remember any other games. We used to paly croquet on the lawn. We'd a full size lawn with a croquet and badminton. We used to paly badminton on the lawn. It was a full size lawn. [speaker003:] Where exactly was the house? It was on Road? [speaker002:] On Road between Grove and Park entrance. Just there. [speaker003:] Can you tell me a little bit more about this school that you went to? You said it was run by two maiden ladies [speaker002:] Maiden ladies [speaker003:] What was there name? [speaker002:] I couldn't even tell you that now. I can remember the butcher that was a butcher on Road. His sons went there. It was [speaker003:] So [speaker002:] a mixed school boy and girl. [speaker003:] Oh it was mixed [speaker002:] Yes mixed school. And we used to do these er pictures that u used to be on er grey and blue paper and we used to, with white paint we used to make a sort of anything there and then with erm charcoal sticks we used to draw on it. Houses and animals and all sorts of things. We did that we used to make some lovely pictures, and I never saved any. I've not the foggiest idea where they were now. But er I'd two that I used to have on the wall at home I can remember. But they've gone with time. No interest in them. [speaker003:] What other things did you do at this school? [speaker002:] Embroidery... embroidery and then they taught us French. We learnt French there.... And English and simple arithmetic. [speaker003:] Was it a big school then? How many people would you say [speaker002:] I remember that I had piano lessons there you see and dancing lessons there. Deportment... there. [speaker003:] How many people went to the school roughly would you say? [speaker002:] Oh I should say there'd be about thirty pupils there, mixed boys and girls. [speaker003:] So were the classes mixed? Did you have subjects together? [speaker002:] Oh yes we the boys were taught along with the girls, yes we were, we were all on, just in the one room. Yes just in the one room. [speaker003:] Was it near where you lived? [speaker002:] Yes well it was er we lived at the top of the second hill and this school was at the bottom. Between Street and er Street. Which the council school was on Road. Big council school. [speaker003:] And did you say your brothers didn't go there though, they went to a different school? [speaker002:] Well they went to a boys school you see afterwards. Th this headmaster from the er... from the er... posh school erm I forget it's name. [speaker003:] The high school? [speaker002:] High school. he set up on his own you see and my brothers went there. [speaker003:] And you you were at this school till you were fourteen? [speaker002:] Yes until I left. [speaker003:] And what, did you have nay thoughts of what you would do when you left school? [speaker002:] No didn't go any where at all just stayed at home. And then after about two years when Father le realized that the lace trade was going he said, must to put to a trade. Because er we don't know what's going to happen and she must be able to earn her own living. So they put me to millinery. Well we used to start to make hats form a coil of wire. We built the shapes up, and it was the the high class shop in, was two sisters on Gate, that er we went to sh er sch er shop and er we used to make these shapes from the coil of wire, these'll be very nippers that I used, there and still use them today ever so useful. But those are what I used to make the wire shapes. And erm then we used to have straw and inch wide by the yard. And we used to stitch round and round and round making the shape on this wire. And then we used to trim it and er a hat there made of just the straw with a band and bow was over three pound which was a lot of money in those days. You used to er, the Goose Fair people, always came and bought half a dozen hats. And er they were always er it was never an open shop, they were always sold by appointment. And er they used to trade up and down this room, Miss I'll be wearing such and such a dress and it'll be such and such a colour and er then we used to make the hat for it. And they al always used to order half a dozen hats. And as an apprentice you, I was a year there for nothing, a ye, half a year for half a crown, half a year for five shillings, and at the end of five years I was earning fourteen shillings.... And er in the apprentice we used to have to go round the shops on the town matching their er material in velvets and ribbons and satin for making their hats of, as well as the straw we made them from material as well. And I used to trail round all these shops. [speaker003:] What exactly did you do when you went round the shops? You had to collect? [speaker002:] Collect patterns, take them back and the head used to pick and then we used to have to go and buy what they wanted you see, the amount of material they wanted. [speaker003:] Can you remember any of the customers who came to the shop? What sort of people apart from the [speaker002:] Only the fair people. And used to have a er shop in erm Street selling sheet music. They used to er trade. And then this butcher on Road, I remember they used to trade. [speaker003:] So what what hours did you work at this this hat shop? [speaker002:] Nothing only making hats. [speaker003:] Yeah, but how how long was you working day? When did you start and when did you finish? [speaker002:] Eight in the morning till eight at night. [speaker003:] Five days a week? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And did you have any breaks for for lunch or anything? [speaker002:] We used to have an hour and a quarter fro lunch, half an hour for tea, and we used to er have to get the principal's tea ready and in the midmorning they always had tea made of milk. I remember boiling the milk and pouring it on the tea leaves. They always had it.... And er the bread and butter for their tea had to be cut wafer thin. I was clever at that. They always had me cutting this er bread and butter. [speaker003:] What would you actually do then, you said you sat round a table, you told me about that, the table with the white cloth. [speaker002:] Yes. There used to be a long table and the head used to sit at the end of this table and so to see that you didn't leave off working she used to get the table cloth and... always be pulling this table straight. [speaker003:] And be looking round. [speaker002:] This and and looking round to see that you were working. [speaker003:] Were you allowed to talk to the other girls or anything? [speaker002:] You didn't have time to do much talking you were so busy sewing. It was real graft. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] How many other girls worked there, round the table? [speaker002:] Oh I should er I should think there'd be about ten. Ten of us. Cos it was a long table with a white cloth on. I remember this white cloth. [speaker003:] How did you get the the apprenticeship in the first place? Did your father arrange it for you? [speaker002:] I don't know how they came to to send me there. Whether it was advertised or what but how I came to be there I wouldn't know. Don't remember that.... How do you like that? [speaker003:] Oh it's beautiful. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] You told me that when you went to work for was the first time you came across abortion really in. [speaker002:] Yes it was yes. [speaker003:] What was your experience there? [speaker002:] Er well whe er when I first went to I'd already lost two children and er the girls knew that I worked with the t last two children. And I became pregnant again and they were falling over themselves to do an abortion for me. I mean there were several people but m the surprising was the person in charge of of the work girls you see. She offered to do one and I I was shocked because we wer we wanted a baby you see, we wanted the baby. They couldn't understand that. Most of the husbands were in the Forces and mine was at home and er any way er before I left two two different women had had babies and had abortions and died. One was er she'd be about thirty six the first one, and er she didn't come to work one day and er the girl, in the afternoon the girl c, her daughter, she was fifteen, er she came to speak to me and she said er, Oh, I said, Hello, how's your mum, is she poorly? She said, She's dead. And she'd had an abortion the night before and she'd died that day on the Monday. She'd had an abortion on the Sunday and she'd died on the Monday. Course I di I didn't get to know much else but it was obvious you see, she'd been going out with a young man, her husband was in the Forces and er she'd tried to get rid of it. She died. And er the same thing happened about another one. Er this was very surprising as well. This person had got one son about twelve, and her husband was in the Forces as well. And er she was missing, and one day I saw her sister-in-law and I said, Where, how is she? Wh Is she ill or what? She says, I'm afraid she's dead. She died through an a backstreet abortion you see. See you couldn't go and have an a an a illegal a legal abortion in those days, it was all backstreet abortions. And the thing that was said a lot was a Slippery Elm stick, well I still don't really know what it was but er it was a kind of a s, bark of the Slippery Elms, a Slippery Elm bark or something and they sharpened it to a point and inserted that into the womb you see and it was done, and then of course I heard a lot about gin, sitting in a hot bath with gin. I mean really I er it shook me because I was extremely naive, I'd had two children but I was very very naive in those days. And er people was of often off for day or two, I mean really nice people, they weren't they weren't bad people, they were really nice people but they it was nature you see. Their husbands were away and they didn't know if they'd come back or not and er, one girl er th this wasn't at the, near where I used to live at. She became pregnant, it was at the ending of the War, when the War was ending you know. And er she'd tried to get rid of it and she couldn't, so she found out her husband was coming home, he was actually in the boat coming back and she didn't know what to do. In the end she sent him a telegram to explain you know that she was pregnant with a another man. About three days after she had er the abortion started to work and she lost the baby. He came back but he forgave her. He was ver, you know he was really nice about it. He said, Well er, you know, it's just that, I mean with nature being what it is you see. She wasn't a bad wife or anything like that, it was just that she'd met this man at work, where she worked, they both worked at a dry cleaning place. And er but of course she did lose the baby. She'd been trying to get rid of it and then suddenly it worked and she lost the baby. [speaker003:] So most of the people who were having abortions were people who were having a child by some other man? [speaker002:] Oh yeah. Yes. [speaker003:] I wonder I was wondering whether some people were having abortion because they perhaps already had too many children? [speaker002:] Well I [sigh] I di I didn't kno I never met anybody i in in that category. Er er you see it was all, with me it was when I, at the time I went to work and er I had to leave work to have my baby you see. And it and this, the one, the last one was just after I left so I didn't know her, I knew her to look at but I didn't know her personally. And er th they were all people whose husbands were in the Forces fighting [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] you know it was terr terrible times [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] really. [speaker003:] And as you said it seemed to be erm the norm that people assumed that if you were pregnant that you didn't want to be and therefore [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, yes. [speaker003:] you would be looking for an abortion so people, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] it doesn't sound as if people had much inhibitions about coming up to you and asking you. [speaker002:] N no, well see what happened to me, I mean this person came and she said er, Er if you like I'll do it for you. I said, Do what? She said, I I'll abort your baby for you. She said, I've done lots, she said. Er you'll be alright, you'll be safe. Couldn't believe it, you just couldn't believe what you was hearing, you know. Cos I so, we so desperately wanted a baby. I mean losing two, our last one a mo a month old and one at er two month old. And losing two like that, I still wanted a baby. And er of course I was lucky the next time see. But I just couldn't believe that people would be willing to do... do that kind of thing, you know. [speaker003:] Was there just one lady who used to do the abortions at er or lots of different people? [speaker002:] Oh no, oh I think there was quite a few. I mean she was just in our department you see. Er you see you sort of lived in one li small environment where, er with us it was er a certain room. We examined these magazines for shells, we examined them to see if they were perfect. But there was big, it was a huge place, you know, and there were a lot of women that did really heavy men's work, we weren't doing men's work. We were doing what women could could do anytime, you know. But in the er in the big shops where women did really heavy work and and really mixed with the men. There was quite a lot of it went on. You used to hear about it you know. I I could never I never knew anybody personally because er you know you just used to go work and then go home and that was it. I was away from work. Er you know you didn't sort of erm, you didn't mix a lot, you know really. Everybody had their own problems and I had mine with losing two the two babies, I had mine wondering if I'd lose another you see and that that was my particular worry at the time. [speaker003:] And tell me about the lady who did abortions, erm, did you know very much about what sort of people they were? [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] The one in particular in your department. [speaker002:] The one in our department. Erm well she was quite a very well spoken presentable person, you know. But she'd got this little bit of... oh I don't know, a little bit of coarseness about her. You know. Er... just that little bit th that you felt, that I wasn't, er you could imagine her doing it, you know. I mean to me the boss of of our bench, there was probably twenty people on the bench, to me the boss of that it wasn't what you call a particularly good job but she'd always worked at the and of course when when went on War work er th those that were still there they got the better jobs you see, to organize us that hadn't been, worked there before. And I wouldn't I I heard of a s very sleazy woman er near where I used to live, er I never met her, but it was all hearsay how many abortions she did. You know she's er she lived in a very tiny house at at. I never met her and it was just talk in the shops, the corner shops were in those days were the gossip places, you know. And it w not like today the supermarket, every corner shop had it's own particular news of the world you know and my mother-in-law used to go down and she used to come up and tell me all these things about the things that were going on. She was the first to get to get to know about the lady whose husband was coming back from the Forces. She was the first to get to know about that you see and she'd come round and tell me. Because she lived against this woman. [speaker003:] Do you think that the ladies who did abortions did it mainly for money, or wer was it sort of concern for? [speaker002:] Er maybe some, I think quite a few did it for money because money was short in, really. But I think a lot of them were genuinely concerned, as in my case I think this person was genuinely worried about me because I'd had, it was my third child and I I do think she was er worried about me because er you know you don't want to keep having babies and losing them but I wasn't worried about, I was worried about myself, to say I wasn't worried that's stupid, but er we just hoped and hoped and kept hoping. No I think sh I think she was genuinely concerned. She'd she certainly didn't want the money cos she'd got, her husband was a er you know she had er money from her husband and she had good wages at the you see with her being in charge er she had quite good wages. But I you know [speaker003:] how much they charged for abortions, you've no idea? [speaker002:] No, no I haven't any idea at all about that. I never I never got too familiar to that extent you know. Probably a lot of people could tell you, you know. I I couldn't tell you that. But she she said, You'll be alright, you'll be alright, I'll do it. You know. Quite erm [speaker003:] And how did she go about abortions, do you know? [speaker002:] Well... the only thing I've heard that she did was this, sounds stupid, Slippery Elm stick. I mean it it sounds stupid, but a person I knew, she was about as stupid as i was as naive as I was, because er she was pregnant, her husband wasn't away but she'd got how many, five, four children, she'd lost three children and she'd got, then she had four, and then she found herself pregnant again. And er half heatedly she decided she ought, she couldn't have any more children you know she'd, I don't think it was money so much that she thought she'd got enough and somebody told her about this Slippery Elm, well you could get a Slippery Elm drink, you know you know these milky foods if you've got a poor tummy, that that can, er [LAUGHTER] she bought a tin of this Slippery Elm drink, and she drunk gallons of it and it was doing her good [LAUGHTER] and she thought er she thought it wouldn't, she'd gone wrong you see []. It was the Slippery Elm bark I think that's what it was called. And the people used to sharpen it to a point, why the Slippery Elm I don't know, I've often wondered about it really, but his person I'm telling you about she she was delivered of a good healthy boy and everything was alright. Yes she's somebody I knew very very well indeed. And er every time he was, the boy was ill after she said, That's through me taking that Slippery Elm that, that, I've done it. [LAUGHTER] She was very, she didn't really want to get rid of the baby, not really, I think I think perhaps somebody had put the idea into her head you've got enough children you shouldn't have any more. But I think she was like me she didn't really want to get rid of her baby. But er he did the boy did suffer with a bit of stomach trouble in later life and she always blamed herself. But I've never really known about the Slippery Elm stick,wh, er didn't get to the bottom of it, you know, what it was. [speaker003:] How did the other women feel about women who had abortions at the, at? [speaker002:] Well there were one or two that was a bit, got on their high horse, you know and say, It's disgusting and that, but er I never did because er in cases like that I think there but for the grace of God, you know I I wouldn't condemn people, in those, we were living in very abnormal times you see. I mean people were dying, men were dying, my brother died, he got killed in the War,pe every day you went to work and somebody would tell you, So and so's died, you remember so and so, he's died. And we were living in very a abnormal times, and women were snatching at a little bit of happiness they could get, you know this is what it was. But they were condemned by some people, there al there's always condemners, aren't there really. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] But I I wouldn't er if I hear of a girl getting pregnant er you know now now it's a very common thing I know, but sometimes I feel really sorry for the girls because it's tying yourself fifteen, sixteen tying yourself down to children. And I so desperately wanted children. [LAUGHTER] But er there there were there were some pe our, our, on the bench that we we had a really, cross section on the bench that I worked on, there were very, women, one woman she'd never been to work in her life. And she liked the idea of going to work you see, she'd she'd got a family, she'd be about oh she was about ten years older than I was and erm she looked out of place you know. I I became a great friend of hers actually, er she looked out of place on the bench. She spoke very nicely and she was a very nice person but she was a little bit er [whispering] you know, It's disgusting, she used to say. It isn't right you know, it's disgusting []. But she'd got no problems, her husband was at home and er her little world was okay you see. But I mean people lived in those days you know I mean, you know where the is don't you? Well a lot of those people lived round there and they were hovels. Th they were really hovels, I mean, [LAUGHTER] you know when I hear people talking about the good comradeship and that. There was to a certain extent but some of the homes were hovels. Back to back. I mean you you, I went to one one person's house, and er you went in the door in the terrace there there was a room. Erm that was the one room. There was a tap in the room, there was just one room, then one room there and one room there. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er where would with er would've been a front room that was another house. You see they were back to back. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] And it it was, I mean I was brought up in the country and it, I found it really shocking that people had to live like that, you know. I mean we weren't er,m my dad was a miner. We we we lived but we had a comfortable home, and I er I thought it was a lovely home actually. Somebody once said we were, erm, These are slums. Oh I was furious, I was very proud of my home, you know, I thought it, my home was lovely. I I've always been that way inclined, I mean my dad was er he he was a miner, he was a lovely dad, he was lovely man. My mum my mum was the best mum ever. [LAUGHTER] My daughter said I'm partisan. My my middle daughter she said, Very partisan mum. No, I said, I'm not, but I've never been ashamed of er of er of my parents and my background. I think you can always learn a lot from your background and your parents. [speaker003:] Ca can you tell me another thing about the abortions, do you know erm if, of course abortion was illegal then, do you [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] know if the police ever took any action, particularly about these ladies who died, did you hear [speaker002:] Erm. [speaker003:] anything? [speaker002:] No, no actually I don't. I don't know. And I was never one really to ask questions, I I daren't ask questions, I used, people told me things, that was it. But I think the the where we lived er er there was this woman that was well known for doing, and she lived in a very tiny house. Er I think she was in trouble with the police. Er I can remember the the news going around that er the police had been to visit, it was actually it was the next street to where I lived. And er she was in trouble but I didn't know the outcome, er you know. I think I was a little bit airy-fairy really, I used to live in a world of me own, I didn't, I wasn't terribly interested you know. If people told me that was all well and good but if they didn't, but I did hear about this erm er she did the operation on the girl who er who couldn't get rid of her baby, and then it, she lo she sent she sent a telegram to her husband or a letter er it took a long while to come from the Far East, he was in the Far East. And it took a long while for the letters to get there but he knew while he was on the boat that his wife was pregnant and er when he got here, she'd it'd been aborted. It was a late abortion it didn't work straight away, it m probably the baby died but it didn't come away from her you see and er, it was a shame, but she oh she was called a very bad woman you know because her husband was fighting for his country and and er you know. But er he he came back and they had er they had two more children actually. Cos they they didn't live far from me, I did know her by sight. [speaker003:] Can you tell me then another side of this problem of abortion during the War is erm the problem of contraception then, erm I wonder do you think that people weren't aware of facilities for contraception then during the War? [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] Or wh what was happening? [speaker002:] Well I think a lot of it was erm... ignorance. I mean I there was a thing I don't know if anybody's told Pessaries, Doctor Pessaries, that you could use. I used them and they worked for me. I I was very keen er when I had my daughter erm I was quite happy about it and I I I used them, then after three years I didn't use them. But they worked for me. But you see you've got to know what you're doing, you've got to really look after yourself. I mean I, it's no good me husbands to look af, I I this is my second husband but er with my first husband er I I sort of erm if it's [LAUGHTER] been left to him, God bless him, he's dead now but if it'd been left to him I'd have had a houseful of children you know. So I had to look after myself so I I had one and then I had the other one, just stop at two. Er but I used to tell people and they you know people near me that had a lot of children and er they'd moan and groan about it, I heard one woman say erm, she'd had quite a few children and I I'd been in hospital and I said er, er a certain person that'd had a baby had lost it. She said, Ooh she's one of the lucky ones, she said, I couldn't get rid of mine. And now that was the attitude that that that they they had that er a lot of them, not not everybody of course that just and she had this attitude, erm anybody that had lost their baby were lucky, you see. And she'd I think she had about eight, over over a period of years you know. And think this woman that had lost her baby she said, she's one of the lucky so and so's you know she lost hers, I couldn't get rid of mine. She'd tried and she she didn't, her husband was at home he wasn't in the Forces but th this was the attitude. [speaker003:] Would people go to their doctors to ask for contraceptive advice? [speaker002:] Oh don't think so, don't think they'd dare. I daren't have done if I hadn't er oh oh I know once my my doctor came to see me about something and there was erm a lot of people used to use er some pills oh what were they called, little round pills, when at the monthly periods they used to use them, oh Doctor Johnson's, Doctor somebody's pills, now they would have the effect of er your period you would see more than you usually did. But I remember I'd got a box on my mantlepiece erm not only was I using the pessaries but I was also taking these when the period was due. And erm I mean they were quite they wouldn't they wouldn't get rid of a baby, but a lot of people thought they would. I mean my doctor saw them, he said, What you taking these for? I said, Well I take them cos I have a lot, I used to have an awful lot of pain every month, I did, and it i this used to prevent the pain. And er he said, You can ask me for anything, cos he was a strong Catholic you see and he wouldn't he didn't believe in anything to do with birth control. Erm i if you want anything to stop the pain I'll give it you. Er so I said, Alright I'll stop taking them which I didn't anyway, but a lot of people used to took them but some used to take er when it when the periods were due they'd take about half a box, I mean instead of taking two, er two one day and two the next they'd take about half a box. Well I think you know they could've killed themselves taking all that now, I forget forget what they were called. They were black round like little tiny erm cashews you know, little black thing, just can't remember the name of them now. They were very well known. You used to buy them from the chemist. [speaker003:] Yes so you, was there any difficulty or embarrassment about getting these things for the pessaries and the pills from the chemist? [speaker002:] Well I I was never embarrassed at getting the pessaries, I used to and ask for them. And I never found any embarrassment there because there was I always saw the wom woman, you could always see a woman chemist. I always saw the woman and there was, she knew me and er there was no problem. Also the er the erm these Doctor something pills er she advised me to take them because of these pains I had and er but a lot of people thought they wold work wonders you know. That, if there's any baby there it'll get rid of it but I don't think it ever would. I don't think it was strong enough for anything like that. [speaker003:] Mm. I hear that there was a er family planning clinic in in the [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] thirties erm but I don't know a lot about it. I wondered if you ever heard of such a thing? [speaker002:] Well not in the thirties of course but after the War there was one because I er, ah well this, no, this was much later, much much much, because I married my second husband and erm I had two children fairly quick. Er we were married three years, no children and I began to get desperate again and an anyway along came the first then came the second. And that was enough, we decided that was enough. So I went to the birth control clinic on, either Street or Street it was, I can't remember which. Do you know which it was? [speaker003:] Well I know it was at Street at one time. Yes. [speaker002:] Yes that'd be it. Yes that would be it. And it was a Doctor, er she was in charge, [speaker003:] That's the name, yes. [speaker002:] she was lovely. She was my doctor at the time, she was she was oh she was a grand person was Doctor. And er very kind, very gentle. And I I went but it was so embarrassing it made me ill. It was very very embarrassing this, what you went through you know and all this performance. [LAUGHTER] You know. And I I er anyway it did make me ill,its it made me bleed. Er [speaker003:] With internal examinations and [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] things like that? [speaker002:] Yes, when I got home at night I I was er I had to I was sent to the hospital I was bleeding. And erm you know... it was pretty bad. And so I wouldn't use it, I wouldn't use the so we er my husband just had to [LAUGHTER] take precautions [] and that was it. [speaker003:] Yes, so they had did have a variety of different things you you could er be [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] fitted with then? [speaker002:] Yes I heard of a lot of things, the coil, er my my sister had the coil and erm and of course the cap which which it what I had. And different creams and that kind of thing, but er oh it was you know not very nice. I was [LAUGHTER] messy and [] [LAUGHTER] I've always said that [break in recording] severe looking nurses you know and you felt a bit embarrassed. [speaker003:] Yes. Was it a busy place when you went there? [speaker002:] Oh when I went yes, there was a lot there, quite a lot there. [speaker003:] This would have been what in the late forties or fifties, would this be? [speaker002:] Th yes well my, oh no, it was in f the early fifties actually. [speaker003:] [whispering] Ah yes. [] [speaker002:] Yes. My two, these two my last two girls were born in the fifties yes. Yes in, when when the youngest one, cos I had a very bad confinement over the youngest one, and er Doctor sa said, he said, he asked, You don't want any more, my doctor that was then, not Doctor because I was I wasn't under Doctor then. And she said, You don't want to have any more do you? Er I said, No, and she gave me a letter to take down there you see. Erm. [break in recording] [speaker003:] You told me that you had an abortion in the nineteen thirties. [speaker004:] That's right. [speaker003:] Can you tell me how this all came about? [speaker004:] Well my husband was out o on strike and I'd erm got two babies, a year and ten months, and I felt that I had to go and get a job and I was desperate so I'd heard people talking about these things as they did so I thought well I've got to do something. And er what I did I got everything, you know the, I don't think it was, and some warm water and I saw that my hands was well clean and I'd got some very nice little silver spoons, only small ones. And er I er penetrated, it took two or three days in the womb with this spoon, and the heard something go pop. And of course not long after that erm I was took ill and er I er had to have the doctor and they sent me to hospital. I can mention Mister, Doctor, he's Sir, John. Er he attended to me and I shouldn't have done but I looked at my notes at th bottom of the bed one day and it said, Interference denied. And of course I had denied cos nobody, I think he said, Has someone interfered with you? Nobody had, I'd done it myself, you see and I didn't want to know and er I didn't want anybody to know you see but er, he was marvellous I know and I know there was something else tiny came away it'd only be about... six or eight weeks but it was, I think anyway what was lost was found and I was in hospital for about fourteen days. And er that's how I performed the, but I kept it to myself all these years you know and never told anybody what I'd done because I think it was terrible. Cos I... [speaker003:] How did you know how to go about it? [speaker002:] Well when you're a waitress and you mix you know with all sorts and you hear different people talking and what they did and what they didn't do you now and some had Doctor pills at that time in the nineteen thirties and some used the Indian bark. Er what was there? Some pink pills or something but there was all sorts you know hat they used to say put your feet in hot in water, mustard and er fall down the stairs or go on a bus, they used to tell you all sorts of things you know to, and er anyway that's what happened to me. But thank goodness it didn't do me no permanent harm. B [break in recording] [speaker005:] Er I did have a child for in nineteen forty eight. I did have c a hysterectomy but er because there was a l malignant growth, so whether in you know I'd done anything all those years and yet it didn't affect, you know it makes you wonder doesn't it? [speaker003:] Well it makes you wonder but I should think [speaker005:] And ten when you lose a lovely girl you wonder still, you know why you, if that was punishment. I didn't lose her till she was over twenty but... So but I think it was desperation because if I'd had money I should've had a house full of children because I loved them, you see, I've always loved children. So [speaker003:] Do you know if this was something that was happening to a lot of people, at that sort of time in nineteen thirties? [speaker005:] Oh yes, yes, yes but erm... on the radio prog programme I heard someone say there was every street corner these women but they weren't, I don't think there was, I think it was you know, there were a lot of women that used to do it illegal. And er they used to get them to take these pills they said and they used to drink a bottle of gin, keep drinking gin. Oh dear I couldn't of that [LAUGHTER]. No. [speaker003:] Did you think of going to anybody like that before you decided to do it yourself [speaker005:] No I wouldn't let anybody else touch me person. I was a bit oh dear, no, no I would never have gone to anybody, no. [speaker003:] Did you tell anybody else that you were pregnant, any of your friends or anyone? [speaker005:] No, no I didn't tell anybody when I you know I when I was doing me upmost, of course they knew afterwards that er because of me going in the hospital you see. [speaker003:] Where did you get from in those days? [speaker005:] Pardon? [speaker003:] Did you get from a chemist? [speaker005:] Oh yes, oh yes, you got it from the chemist. It was what, I used today, they used it in all hospitals. Oh yes. [speaker003:] Mm so it wasn't as if there was any query when you went to ask for it cos it [speaker005:] Oh no but you see that was for cleanliness. You see that was to see that you know there wasn't any, yes. And when they, I don't think there was any queries, not with er the pills or the or... erm Indian bark, have I said that? Indian bark. Erm mustard, gin, oh the things that they... you know they used to do. And I and I as I say a lot was done because the poverty. I mean they haven'they they don't know today really you know well I think it's wonderful. I don't grumble about me pension, I could do with more, but I don't. No. [speaker003:] What money did you have coming in at that time in fact? [speaker005:] Oh I don't think we di we'd hardly anything. They wouldn't, the miners hardly got anything and there used to be soup kitchens for us and er when it first started in nineteen twenty six and er I was pregnant with my second one and I used to walk right down to Pit with a lace, great big lace basket, they wouldn't let the men fetch the coal and we had to push the coal from there right to the, oh they've no idea love, no idea. You see there'd been the nineteen fourteen eighteen War, then there'd there was the strike, and er I started to work and I had to go to work. And I've had to work, I worked till I was seventy. [speaker003:] So when you were working as a waitress was that the only money that was coming into the house then? [speaker005:] Yes, yes. [speaker003:] Because your husband was on strike at the time? [speaker005:] Yes, yes, yes and I wouldn't pay my rent because er ooh and I can tell you really the exact date when I er was pregnant because I know I quickened at the when it was first opened and er I was a waitress in the Room I think it was. But it was beautiful then. And I quickened then, of course you daren't go to work those days when once they knew you was pregnant it was a case of out. And also er there was the Picture House then, there's not any people remember it, next to. And er the woman there she wouldn't sign the paper because ny husband was a miner for me to get a drop of milk for him. That's how much assistance the miners had then. You know they didn't get the, you know, they've gone too far now. Everything is a, was a good thing that the unions but they're going too far. They're just taking a bit too much on. Well that's my idea and I mean as a, then we got the other War. So we haven't had er, we'd no chance really to save. [speaker003:] So when you were pregnant did your husband know you were pregnant? [speaker005:] Yes er but I don't think he knew what I did, I think he thought I used to take the boiling water upstairs you see int he bedroom and er I think he just thought I was sitting on it to open the womb. No. [speaker003:] He didn't er make any suggestion [speaker005:] No. [speaker003:] that he knew what you were goin was going on at all? [speaker005:] Oh no, no. I wouldn't let him know that. No. No, he wouldn't have agreed with it you know but [speaker003:] You didn't talk about it at all then? [speaker005:] No, not what I'd actually done, cos he was very frightened when I went in the... hospital. I was ill, but he didn't know actually that I had used that method. [speaker003:] Yes. Can I just ask one thing, a another thing about the time you were living in, erm did you as a woman know anything about contraception? [speaker005:] There was the what they tern the French letter. But they couldn't afford them. And it's true, I've seen my husband get water and wash it out well and er put powder and that because, and yet you shouldn't, you see they weren't safe really but they was that poor love they had to. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] I mean it's unbelievable. [speaker003:] So was there anything that you could do apart from leaving it to your husband? Was there anything you could do via means of contraception, rather than just leaving it to your husband? [speaker005:] I didn't know anything. I think some people they used to put a, I think some used a little sponge and put something on but I didn't. I didn't, until that actually happened you know, I didn't believe in anything like that. [speaker003:] And you didn't know about anything else? [speaker005:] No, no, no, only the medicines and different pills and different things, you know, that these women used to... do to their selves. [speaker003:] Oh what sort of medicines an pills were those? [speaker005:] Oh I think, wasn't there Pills, pink pills and... ooh I forget what else. I know they used to put bark in their inside,,, that's right. And then I said they used to have the mustard baths. [speaker003:] Oh yes. [speaker005:] And they used to take the gin and these pills and you know. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker005:] Gin er was that er Alderman, the old gentleman, the older alderman, you know he's been dead years now from, and erm they were very good. They used to er send a lot of er in erm Street is it, up at the er, you know what I, that that jus, in Street was it, in Street? Street. Er there used ti be a place there but er, no I can never remember knowing or else I should think I should've gone. Only I didn't, daren't mention it to the doctors you know. You didn't [speaker003:] Was it not something people talked about with their doctors then? [speaker005:] No, no, no, no. No. [speaker003:] Why was that? Were they er a bit er frightening the doctors then or? [speaker005:] Well did I don't know things are so open and you know, these days. But I still maintain to encourage them at twelve years of age to be ab oh I think it's all wrong. [speaker003:] Mm, mm. [break in recording] Now you had three children within two and a half years. [speaker006:] Yes, two years and four months. Mm. Yes I did i well I did hear of several things to stop having them but over the first actually. And er the pills, all different sorts of pills,, Doctor pills, er there was all kinds of pills in those days that you could take to you know, to stop you from having them you see. [speaker003:] This was after you became pregnant you mean? [speaker006:] Yes that's right, oh yes. Mm. Mind you if you didn't er lose it up to three months, there wasn't much chance after. If you kept it up to three months there's cat in hell's chance you'll lose it after that. But erm if you took these pills religiously, some of them you would probably lose it. That all depended on how strong you was internal you see. If you were very strong internal well you wouldn't lose it. But er [speaker003:] And where did people get these pill from? [speaker006:] Chemist mostly, erm erm chemist and er er not health stores, there's one on Road, used to be one, not Road, one on Road now. Er [speaker003:] herbalists you mean? [speaker006:] That's it. And there was one in,, he's packed up cos they've these houses. They [speaker003:] Were they sold openly? [speaker006:] Well yes, yes they was. Mm. Er only th back counter effort was er Slippery Elm, that was a back of the counter sort of thing, Slippery Elm, because it was dangerous practice. Slippery Elm you see you had to tape it down to a fine point and then insert it you see, and if you didn't get the right place well it'd kill you. Well everything's dangerous practice really where speaking pills and all the lot. I still I still think they are today, and er, there was the Slippery Elm and then of course there was these backstreet effort. Yes there was one in. She went to prison for seven years when she was caught. Now she used to used a crochet hook, yeah. But the whole point was, my mother-in-law told me this, when I was very young. You see, the the erm wait a minute... the womb is like two knuckles together like that,wh when you conceive they close like two bones you see they close, and they if you want to get rid you've got to open it which is which is damned hard work and of course terrible pain attached to it. You couldn't open it less with force, an it's great force. Anyway then as I say they used to have these this back street effort and if you do it yourself you could do it with erm the enema syringe. Could do it with the enema syringe in the bath. That was another way of doing it. [speaker003:] And when did you first know about these kinds of methods of abortion? [speaker006:] Well I got to know about them when I first got married, when I was in the back street, you know in the terraces. You get to know from there. Then of course at I mean you, at you could all sorts of things from there. In factories you hear a lot, in factories. Everybody talking, everybody's giving each other the gen of what to do and where to go and what have you. Bit I learnt quite a lot in, from the back you know, in the terraced. They knew everything bar the kitchen sink, what to do and what not to do. Everything was a dangerous practice though by the same rule. You were damn lucky if you survived the ordeal. But you can well imagine. [speaker003:] So if you wanted to end a pregnancy it wouldn't er be a problem finding out about it? [speaker006:] Oh no, no there was too many things to be had then. Too ma mind you it's easy today with that p, I don't think that pill's reliable. It's not, anybody with blood trouble [break in recording] they couldn't take it. [speaker003:] No. [speaker006:] No they couldn't but in our days, in the younger days, to keep off it was the French letters. [speaker003:] That was the only thing, was it? [speaker006:] That was actually the only thing and then the sponges after that. The, I tell you that place that they had in Street used to ins insert the sponges. [speaker003:] The clinic, we're talking about? [speaker006:] [cough] Yes that's right yes. They inserted the sponge. That's what you went there for then. Then of course failing that, if you didn't want that doing you'd er try the French letters and they were supposed to be er you know supposed to be intact and supposed to be the thing. Unless they of course there were different sorts of that you know even. And er it had been known for them to split. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] And the sponges had been known to move and not be right and even today they've when they've had this er [cough] what is it, this er operation for it they've conceived after haven't they? Yes they have. [speaker003:] What was the view amongst men and women in those times, was preventing having children regarded as a as a woman's job? Or was it something men took responsibility for? [speaker006:] Well, well I don't know, I think, well the men u of course we didn't use the French letters did we? So I mean if the man was going to take it on himself I mean er he used the French letter then when that clinic started up as I would say, the women would go there you see stop that lark because they didn't even they didn't even let, er take very kindly to the French letters some of them didn't you know, the men. [cough] But er I should say myself that er it all depended on the man really you know in a way didn't it, either one way or th other. It all depended on the man. And then a lot depended on the women as well hand on till death well you what do you expect to be pregnant next morning. Don't you? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] You see that's the trouble you see every individual is different in the make up of life they are, so some'd get pregnant by oh you might as well say looking at one another and another one they might perhaps go years and not get pregnant. In my case you get pregnant at every verse end, cos I came of a big family you see, mm. [speaker003:] So after you'd had your three children did you get pregnant again? [speaker006:] Ooh crikey aye, yeah didn't get, didn't have any [LAUGHTER] did as well my word. Wha yes I did several times but I didn't carry on with them no. [speaker003:] No what did you do to stop them? [speaker006:] Got the pills, yeah [speaker003:] Did they always work? [speaker006:] Well most of the time yes Doctor pills were very very good in those days and then of course gin and loads of Epsom Salts brought you down to last leg, no wonder I've got arthritis. Erm [cough] it was a load of Epsom Salts and er and a lot of gin and hot baths, that brought it on sometimes. And then again I tell you you could use the enema, and that er but er mostly it would you know you would get right again, but it took some doing, not easy. [speaker003:] Was there ever a time when you had to go in for more drastic measures? [speaker006:] Well the enema's a drastic measure. I never went to anybody. [speaker003:] No. [speaker006:] Never. I could never allow anybody to do anything for me, can't now. I'm so self reliant that I if I was going o do anything it'd have to be me that would do it, for the simple reason I couldn't trust anybody else, not in that particular thing anyway. [speaker003:] But was this very common amongst people you were living with, were they, was it very common to to stop pregnancies like this? [speaker006:] Oh yes it was. Oh yes when we were younger, it was common. In all these with what you know they'd have children by the galore in these er terraced houses. All taking stuff, first one then another. Yeah. Then factories as well when the War was on. That's when the War was on you see, things got worse, they were all in the family way, all them as could be in it. Mm, believe me all trying to get rid. Was. [LAUGHTER] I'd got two pals that tried to get rid, they did get rid eventually, yeah. [speaker003:] Do you know anything about erm people who did abortions in back streets? [speaker006:] Did I know? [speaker003:] Did you know any [speaker006:] I didn't know the person but I knew of her and I knew a friend of mine went to her, this is the one that did seven years. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker006:] She was in the back streets. Yes she did seven years. So [speaker003:] And you told me that she used to use a crochet hook. [speaker006:] Ah yeah they used crochet hook they did. Mm. Fine instruments weren't they, blimey. [speaker003:] What sort of person would she have been, I'm I'm wondering whether she would be doing this for money or was she be doing it because she really cared about people. [speaker006:] Oh yes, money. Oh you had to pay her, obviously, mm, yeah, did it for money. They all do, don't do these things for love, do they? No. [speaker003:] Was it always women, [speaker006:] It was a woman that it was a woman that did it. [speaker003:] That was a woman. [speaker006:] Oh I didn't know of any other, only knew the one. But she was well known, whe was well known all over. [cough] Yes she was. My friend went to her, she didn't get rid. No she went and had the abortion but she had the child eventually. Mm. He took her back when he [LAUGHTER] come from the War []. Oh dear, it makes you laugh don't it. The family was against it but still he stuck to her. No I bet the lass must be getting on now. Mm. Tried ever so hard to get rid but she couldn't, she didn't get rid of it, the other two did. Mm. They did yes. But you was with it all the War, even before the War, and then when the War came, and of course you've got a fair amount when the War came on you see. Mm. Yes you've got knowledge all the time with living with people around you. It was, the back streets were where a lot of this business was. People had got no money you see having a load of kids and they keep always being in the family way, naturally trying to get rid of them you see because they didn't want them obviously. I wouldn't say that's because of money today would you? [speaker003:] No. [speaker006:] No, no, it's not money today actually is it? Not so bad as it was then in those days. It was bad cos there was no money, no money about at all, nineteen twenty six strike and what have you and no there was no money at all so people didn't want their babies did they? [speaker003:] No. [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker003:] Erm was this something that you talked about with your husband when you found you you were pregnant, erm did you discuss it with him at all? [speaker006:] He didn't use to like ti, never, he was always terrified at what I wouldn't do next. Mm. Yes [break in recording] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] No he was always terrified at what I'm going to do next. I remember him being in a pub a while back and a woman saying to him, What's your wife going to do? He said, Madam, I never know what my wife's going to do she's so unpredictable. I was [break in recording] [speaker003:] Would he rather you had the children then? [speaker006:] Well I think he would've, he was very fond of children you know. Yes he didn't like me to make, he liked, he didn't like me to anything that was going to upset me. At all, any drastic measures what so ever. He'd he never liked it. No, never. No. [speaker003:] I was wondering whether it was common for women when they were found they were pregnant to talk amongst their women friends and really leave the men out of it as it were. [speaker006:] Oh ah we used to get together and we used to discuss each other you know what we could take and what we couldn't take. We didn't used to talk to the men about ti obvious. Never talked to the men about it. doing it at the back of their, at the back. Without them knowing, most of the time. I can only really remember one occasion when my husband knew that I was I was taking Pills at the time, I think I took about twenty eight in one night. pills, that's the only time he ever knew. And he was furious. He didn't he didn't approve of it, so you, we didn't talk to your husband about it. No you go together with the women, same in factories, they're all talking about different things of what you're doing and what you can do. [cough] As I say sometimes it was it was er it worked and sometimes it didn't. If it didn't work well you just made yourself ill for nothing. And it makes you wonder as well if it didn't revolve back onto he children you know. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker006:] You've got to watch that you see, did it revolve back on the children. It's up to thee months, I say after three months no good taking anything at all because you'd never lose it, not after three months. At three months it is the weakest of the womb, that is li that is for everyone, if anybody's got a weak inside well they's lose it, they's be liable to lose it more than anybody else with out taking anything. I tell you one that's got a strong inside, you manage up to three month but you're no good after three months. It's a waste of time. [speaker003:] What about doctors in those days, did they give anybody advice about erm [speaker006:] Just tell you not to do it. The doctors were very keen you know very keen, and if actually if they had to go anywhere when there was trouble you know say you'd got haemorrhage or anything like that they were supposed to report it you know. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker006:] Obviously did do a thing. Yes the er the doctors were very very keen in those days they'd repo, I remember Doctor telling me about a case on. And I was very young, somebody'd used Slippery Elm, and she'd died. [speaker003:] Mhm, mhm. [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And what would happen when somebody was reported, would it then become a police case? [speaker006:] Well I should say yes they would, I should say there was trouble for them obviously when it was reported. Yes I think they was had up, if they were alive t, excuse me, to tell the tale. Ooh yes, they'd be had up. [speaker003:] O on the other end did did erm doctors give any advice about contraception, such contraception as there was at that time? [speaker006:] I can't remember him telling me much at all, not. No I can't. [speaker003:] Well perhaps you might have more contact with the nurse erm the district nurse. [speaker006:] They didn't tell you anything. Didn't know much theirselves, any more than these do today. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] They tell me I know more than them. [break in recording] [speaker003:] But you said you you when I asked you about the clinic on Street you thou you thought had heard of it. [speaker006:] I did, I felt sure er I probably went there once. I cou I fel felt I could m when you said the name it struck me very forcibly. I felt sure that I went there but I don't think, I don't know what happened but I don't think they were ever so successful really. I don't think the men minded really you know, having these things inserted, it saved them a lot of trouble. Mm. It did but er it's a two way switch this business you know, you've got to er you've got to be together on the job haven't you really two sw two way switch. Mm. It's what I always think about it. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] time when I first came to. [speaker002:] And how old were you then? [speaker003:] I should say about six or seven. [speaker002:] What year would that be?... [speaker003:] Tt Let's see, I'm sixty one now, so sixty one that's er twenty one isn't it? [speaker002:] Twenty one. Yeah. [speaker003:] Twenty one ye Nineteen twenty one when I first came to. But it had been just [phone rings] just a wee little village then. [cough] We had we had the two schools, the School and the what we call the Boys School, that was the other one on on the green and it the girl's school, near this school, you started there as an infant between five and seven. And then the girls stayed on till they were fourteen. But when the boys became seven they they went on to this school on the green. Now the village green in those days was all ashes, completely all ashes. N not as it is today, beautiful green grass and we used to play er cricket, football, marbles er pitch card, ring tor, er duckie stone, and all that of course the village in those days was divided into two parts and if you lived over 's Hill you was a downtowner. And if you lived this end of the village you was an uptowner, see? And we used to arrange football teams, cricket teams, during the before you went into school, playtime and very often when you came out of school. But if you went over the hill, after school time, then you were in for a fairly rough time the other end, you were challenged and all sorts of things. And of course there were no houses down where the village ha past the village hall in those days. I think Row was about the last row in and of course you'd got all the fields, Gardens and what have you. And there was nothing till you got to the Grange, absolutely nothing. And there was just, well Road, other than er the Estate was pretty well the same as it is today, very little improved. And the w the road might have been widened but the houses are the same and er the er of course with a lot of The old factories have been pulled down, Mills was pulled down, that was a v very prosperous f factory at one time, when I was a boy, but er I'm afraid that went according to you know [LAUGHTER] the lack of trade. It was er The village centre is about the same as it was when I was a boy, more busier of course, all the private houses that were on the front, you know, Street? That's all been altered,i [LAUGHTER] they've all been made into shops [] and spoilt the you know, the and there used to be old 's, the shoe shop and Mr. 's watch shop and Mrs 's pastry shop. Mr, the bar local barber, who's son lives next door, for years, he used to start at nine o'clock in the morning and finish at nine o'clock at night. Still cutting hair at nine o'clock at night and shaving people, penny and tuppence a time. Old Mr, the old er, our only, as I could remember, centurian, died when he was a hundred and two. He was going to have his hair cut w in every and a shave Mr er 's barber shop right up until practically the morning he died. And he did his own gardening, right up, when he was a hundred, he was fit as a fiddle when he was a hundred, doing his own gardening. [speaker002:] Where about did your family live? The first house they lived in [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker002:] ? [speaker003:] The first house that I can remember was on Road. That's just by where your friend lives. lived in that house there and it was three shillings a week, I think it was, two up and two down. One biggish living room and a little back kitchen with no water and no sanitation and if you wanted to dispose of your water you'd have to take it out on the roadside and chuck it down the main drain. And you used to have to fetch your water from the pump's head, just round the corner, outside toilets, we used to have to go about fifty yards to use the toilet. And then you'd share it with somebody else on the same row.... Yeah. And it was [LAUGHTER] a fight for the f towards the end of the week it was a fight to [] sort of say, Well, [LAUGHTER] Shan't be able to move it, [LAUGHTER] use it [] until t the man comes. But although in that house there was eight of us [speaker002:] That was your? [speaker003:] Mum and Dad and six kids, there was four in one bedroom, me sister, me and her my Me two sisters in the slept in in a double bed in me Mam's bedroom and we four lads slept in the back bedroom w w whi which was just just big enough to get a double bed in, as you can see, and there was two that slept at the top, and two slept at the bottom. And you can guess what that was like with four four of us in bed, [shouting] Hey [cough] [LAUGHTER] Wi move your feet. [] And and of course y you didn't have extra blankets in those days, you had to fetch your Dad's topcoat up and put on if you're cold. That's sort of business. [speaker002:] What did your Dad do for a living? [speaker003:] Well Dad, he worked... in the ammu in the munitions at Coventry, down Lane for the Humber people, during the war. That's how he g He's native is here, he's a native of, there was a very big sam family of them, about seventeen brothers. And they always formed the Village Church Choir,, see? [cough] But he was tt er a twist hand in the hosiery trade, making... socks, and he worked in the last mobile, not mobile, er mechanical stocking manufacturers, owned by my uncle, Mr Frank, in Street and th what we used to called Street. It was never known as Street in those days, it was called the Street. And they had a big tt gas engine there with a great big flywheel and you can see these machines today, they didn't make them round, they used to make them flat. See? And i the bobbins an and that used to run across like that, the shuttle always used to run across like that [speaker002:] From side to side? [speaker003:] Aye. And er great big pulleys with three inch leather belts, if they'd have done it in, er do it in these days and the factory inspector would have cut him to pieces. And I can see the o old father when he used to have s want to make the mo the machine immobile, while he did something particular to it, so like you switching the electricity off, well,h he used to have to take the belts off. He used to get this brush handle and shove it in between the belts, like that, and [cough] twist it off like that. Then when he wanted it to go again he used to get the th the belt, the leather belt, and er sort of hook it on to the lower end of the cast iron pulley and follow it round until it went on. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] And that's how they used to start the o [LAUGHTER] [] and the old gas engine it used to pop pop pop, pop pop pop, pop pop pop pop. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] A y That was the last one [] of the mechanized o Well, it was the only mo er mechanized stocking stockinger's shop in the village. The rest was all hand operated, which was, was infested by stockinger's shops in those days. [speaker002:] That was the framework? [speaker003:] The framework [speaker002:] knitters? Yeah. [speaker003:] And you can You can see the n the buildings And there are one or two of them pulled down now. I don't remember all I The last man I can remember working one was Mr, Joe, and he was down he The last one I can remember, as I say, was being operated in in the yard just down Street. Opposite to Mr where Mr Fred used to live, at the back of his house. That was the last one I can remember being worked there, but I do remember Frank, where me Dad worked. Then of course, me Dad, when that closed down, it was like everything else, it's as bad as it is today, for jobs. They couldn't get work and my poor old Dad went miles round these outside villages, on a a old lady's push-bike, trying to find work. And the work they'd go for They were building their house, they'd v volunteer to take the footings out, or dig trenches to, or find out which farmer would have the threshing engine to do the, you know, to help them with the threshing, which was arduous work in those days. Fetching coal and water for this [LAUGHTER] poor old steam engine [], taking the chaff away, which was a filthy, horrible job. [cough]. Carrying sacks of beans and s oats, up into the storage block in sixteen stone bags and twelve stone bags. And how they used to They used to put them on like a You know what these two-wheeled barrows like they put the sacks on, don't you? Well, it was a similar thing to that, only bigger. tt They'd got two handles which was b made it mobile, two wheels, and used it Have four sacks at the end of this threshing engine, hanging on little hooks, and and a bloke there seeing that it got filled alright and it when it was full, they used to run this thing underneath a sack, crank it up by hand, like that, till they got it to the required height, then nestle it on their shoulders, you see there was a There's a there's an art in carrying c In carrying coal and there's an art in carrying corn and there's an art in carrying beef. There's an art in carrying everything, which makes it easy, if you know how. But if you don't know how, it'll kill you. Same as all farm work, see, farm work They don't know as they're born these days, these youngsters don't, when they come to talking about farming. used to have to w run the old b back the old horse and cart into the co crew yard which had been standing all year with about umpteen beasts on it, trampling it down, more straw, trample it down, more straw, trample it down. Then in back end they used to empty this crew yard and you used to have to handle all that with forks, muck forks, they used to call them, and that was big biggest fork and by God, they used to pull your heart out. You can guess what it was like, straw and everything, being trampled down all winter, sodden with with water and everything. And then when that was done you used to have to take it to the field, [LAUGHTER] and put it in we we used to put it in big heaps and then come back, fill it up, and then go out and spread it. And [speaker002:] So [speaker003:] the o the old farmer used to go along with his one furrow plough, and a pair of good horses, and it was no mean feat. I mean it th th they were called farm labourers in those days, but they weren't labourers, they were clever men, clever men, make no mistake about that. I mean today, you've got to be an educated man to know how to even, they've got er tractors and everything, but in those days you'd got to set your plough furrow out so as you you could run your plough down your first one, and then as you as you ploughed your first furrow out you'd got to plough your next one into it. Ten inch furrow. And keep old Dobbin in his in his furrow. One in the furrow and one on the stubble, see? And you used to do that at a ten inch blade all day, up and down that field. Day in and day out, today they can Same with old mowing machines, they used to go out To open a field up in those days, they used to have to go round with a scythe. Go right round a f these the field and cut your first swathe out and tie it up with a a load of the straw that you'd cut and bind it up, bundle it up and shove that in the hedge bottom. Then the old old binder used to come in with two two year old stalwarts, horses, and he used to go round this field and it used to take him days. And then after the first seven or eight s cuttings, then they used to come along stooking. You used to get two shears underneath your arm like that, and they used to drop them down like that, across your knees and top them like that, see? And you used to put eight to a stook, that was so it would dry out, you see? And er and when that was been in the field whatever days, depending on the weather, if you'd got a good dry summer well you'd perhaps take it in in after a week, you see? And then we used to and they used to come along with the old cart and start leading. And when they'd finished milking at, they'd usually start milking about half past four in the morning, some of them used to go delivering milk and then they used to go leading. What we call leading, that was picking your corn up. And they'd knock off for a bit of dinner, come back, and do the second milking. Wash your cans up erm and er and then they'd go and finish off in the corn fields. And I used to go down you used to see all the mams and kids going down the moors here, taking their dad's tea, down in the fields, so they could have a bit of something and then finish as got dark. And then they'd wind their way home with the old port and everything. And hay harvesting was a different kettle of fish altogether. Admitting you went in the fields, but you didn't open the field up in th erm with a hay harvesting, you used to go in with your cutter, straight away. Take, you didn't bother about the headlands, you'd do your headlands after you'd mown all your and then of course then that was left to dry, after two or three days, depending on the weather again. You used to go in the fields and turn it and when it had been turned they used to start leading. And i if the man in the field had got a grudge against a bloke who was stacking i or taking off in the stack yard he could make life hell. Cos there's a way of putting hay on the cart and you used to have to start one lot in the corner, one lot in the other corner, another lot at the back, another lot at the back at the other side and then you'd fill in your centre. See? And when you'd got your centre filled in, you used to start again,, one in the corner, one the other corner, one between the eyes, one in the middle and back again. Now if you'd got grudge against the bloke who was taking it off in the shop, in the farmyard, after when you got back home, of course you had to come I mean they didn't stick it in the field, like they do now. You used to have to bring the stuff to the farmyard to store it, you see? And if the old boy in the field had got a grudge against the bloke taking it off he used to shove it anywhere so he'd have to pull it off, instead of following the the seam round, you see? By God it was hard, it was hard work in those days. And see the same with mangle tagging, dunnet tagging, sugar beet pulling. Sugar beeting in those days, you used to stick the old plough in, plough them up and then we had to go along knocking them, to knock all the soil off, then chop the tops off, put them in heaps, go along with the old horse and cart. Load them up and then [LAUGHTER] t take them to the heap [] and ready for off again to the market. did it, it was all road transported in them days. M sh you see that I was saying, to be a farm labourer in those days you'd got to be a clever man, you'd got to know how much wheat to shove to an acre, no waste, you see? You couldn't afford the waste. Even though it was cheap in those days the farm farmer couldn't afford to waste it. Oh no. And then of course your sugar beet went direct to Colwick and it used to go by horse and cart in those days. And er but your y mangles and your potatoes, they went in pits, in the field. And of course you your mangles was for your a and your turnips for your Winter fodder. [LAUGHTER] And that was another d another task. [] You used to have a special chopper for your mangles and it was like a big mincing machine, with a great big wheel on, and you used to fill it full of er mangles, or turnips and it used to come out like chips. And then you used to mix it up with bran and oats and cake and that sort of stuff, for the horses. An and then we used to have to and there was no no such a thing as bales in those days, duckie. No such a thing as bales of straw, it was loose hay stacked, and you used to cut it with a big hay knife. [bell ring] Oh, great big hefty thing it was, it was an art to cut hay, with these big knives. And then we used When it g we used to fetch it off then like, cut it and then fetch it off in sheaths, like h, you know, like a big slice of bread. And my God, again it was hard work, we used to put it in this hay chopper, pile it in and chop and it used to come out like chaff. And that was for your horses, you see? An and they had to be fed. The horse man used to have to go before anybody else, to feed the horses so that, and groom them, currycomb them, water them and do everything, before any of the farmers dare take them out on the fields. Yeah. [speaker002:] So were these temporary jobs your father had on the farm? [speaker003:] They'd do anything, my duck. [speaker002:] Did you used to go and help on the farm as well? [speaker003:] Oh aye, of course you do, you had to do, you used to go tater- picking, my duckie, for one and sixpence a day. And if you were lucky, and you got a good farmer, he'd let you take one o what we call roasters, home. So you your Mam could shove them in the oven and roast them for you, take your own bucket. You'd be, oh perhaps twenty or thirty of us, in these fields and you used to do so A length, what you call a length. You'd perhaps have three of you picking up er the potatoes and then another length, another wat another lot of kids, another three used to do another length. And then when the old spinney used to come up again, [cough] if you were lucky, he'd probably He had a probably a little wait before you'd finished the other, you see? Keglet pulling. Stone-picking. Oh, singling, mangles, turnips, anything like that. One and sixpence a day, but Mr was the best paid, was two bob a day. And we always u Everybody used to try and get to 's. [speaker002:] This was while you were still at school? [speaker003:] This was while we were still at scho Well, you used to have a week off of school, my darling, for tater-picking, only. When I was kids. [speaker002:] Did you do any other jobs, part-time [speaker003:] Paper [speaker002:] jobs while you were still at school? [speaker003:] Paper boy. Taking it out and all these what's name, half a crown a week. On Lane, walking it. Come rain, come shine. And you had to put it in the letter box, you daren't leave it in the in the. Milk round, with the old ladle and jug. And you'd be surprised what you had to put your milk in in those days. Anything. And we used to do that twice a day, my darling, not once a day, twice a day. And then come and then wash your own cans out, and you used to carry them all through all round the village. Then I got a bike, and I was alright then, I could put two milk churns on. But you couldn't fill th the milk churns then, you used to have the half pint and pint measures, hanging inside your milk. And it was milk, full of cream. When you've got up next morni And then we I can tell you another thing, and very few people know about it, especially I bet you don't know wha what they called beastlings, do you? Well in those days beastlings was a lux it wasn't a luxury because you could get it for nothing. They used The farmers used to give them to you. And it was milk, after they'd milked the cow first time, after she'd had a calf, well the first milking, they usually got blood in the milk, you see? But the second milking, and so forth on, perhaps the thir second or third milking they used to get milk, what they called beastlings and it was very often too much for the calves to take, so she got a full bag. So they had to draw it off, you see? And if anybody had got a cow and it calved, we used to go to him and say could we have the beastlings, please. Then your Mam used to make p pastry and put these beastlings in and make a beastling custard. [LAUGHTER]. And it was beautiful. You didn't need you didn't need eggs in that, so forth and fifth, in that stuff. Full of all the vitamins and everything. You used to And then you could also go to the local farmer's and take away a quart jug, for two penn'orth of skimmed milk. And that sort of thing. [speaker002:] Did your Mum do any sort of work at all? [speaker003:] Mum, she'd got to do, darling. Six kids, Dad on a few shillings a week, when he was out of work, Mam had to go out scrubbing, washing. My poor mother had got corns on across her her knuckles, right to the very day she died, from scrubbing for different people, and skivvying, up there. these skivvies, in, what we called skivvies in those days, at these big houses up round a about the village. Y you got about twelve and sixpence a w a year. And w half a day a w a week and had to be in by nine o'clock. My mother was was servant to, at the croft up there, about fifteen bob a week and she didn't know when she used to come home. Eight o'clock in the morning till eight nine o'clock at night. Cooking dinner, and if she got a what's-a-name, [cough] if they'd got parties on, she used to stop there had to stop there till two. [speaker002:] What happened to you kids while she was out working? [speaker003:] we had to look after ourselves. And if me Dad wasn't home at work,a out at work, he used to have to do it. My father, six kids on a Friday night, we used to put a bucket of water on the hot sink, on the old gas stove and my father used to bath us six kids in front of the fire. Friday night. And never once on a Sunday morning did that man fail to get up and cook our breakfast and polish our shoes, so that we'd go smart and good to Sunday School. Never once. Yeah. My poor old mother, and me sister finished at the same big house, servant there for them. Same Oh. And the mothers had to do it in those days, half a crown to do all the washing for this woman. And you used to get up and light the copper fire, fill this old copper, which held about ten gallons, and then put plenty of stack o slack on it. And it was there was no what's-a-name in there. I can remember me first Mother's, what she called, automatic washer. By God, I can remember that as if it was yesterday. And it was a little square thing, about two foot square, with a er... and about eight inches deep, tt and you used to put the clothes in, with warm water and your your powder, close the top and you used to have a handle, and Like that there, and you used to be backwards and forwards, like that, [LAUGHTER], with this paddle going backwards and forwards inside it. And that's what they called the first automatic washer. Aye. And of course they'd never They very rarely thought of washing clothes in tap water those days, it was all rainwater. Every house had got it's own it's own rainwater tub. And by God, it were a luxury if w you washed out holding hot water first thing in the morning. You used to go out in the in the wash-house and wash yourselves, under the cold water tap. Up to the eyes in snow, up to the toilet which was about twenty yards away, that was where lived then, in the house where Building Society is now, lived there for thirty four year. [speaker002:] Where's that? [speaker003:] On Street. [speaker002:] Can you remember things that your mother used to do to make the money go further when [speaker003:] I can. [speaker002:] when you were short? [speaker003:] Oh, yes, well I mean I o obviously I When she worked She used to get up I'll tell you another thing that she used to do. She used to get up in the morning, every Tuesday and Friday and catch the half past seven bus, from to Nottingham and another bus down to Boulevard, to Miss 's, do a day's skivvying and come back again, and then do her ironing and so forth, at night-time. And my God, they weren't such facilities as er what's-a-name, if it was er wet weather. You Every house had got lines across the the kitchen, you used to put hang the washing in the kitchen, to get it dry. On the fireguard, above the fireplace,i there wasn't many houses that hadn't got a line across the fireplace, like that. And you'd put handkerchiefs and collars and that, and you used to have to starch the collars in those days. Robin's Starch, Beckett's Blue, and all this and that. And then of course they used to iron them. And it was hell's own job with sitting in the kitchen at night-time, a little kitchen, with washing hanging above your head, so the poor bugger could get it dry. [speaker002:] This was other people's washing that she took in? [speaker003:] Aye. And her own. And we didn't We hadn't got a wash-house of our own, we used to have to go to Miss 's, down the road, to do our washing. Borrow Miss 's. [speaker002:] Why was that? [speaker003:] You hadn't got We hadn't got a washing we hadn't got a wash-house. Oh, you were lucky if you'd got a wash-house attached to your house, in those days. You had to go to go to Miss 's and have it do it there, borrow her copper, and wringer. Blimey, no, it was a luxury if you'd got a washer then. And i [cough] and of course when she worked When Mum used to work in Nottingham you could er be assured that you'd have some bacon on a Saturday, and Sunday, because she used to call at T. N. 's in Street, and buy sixpenny worth of bits of bacon. Which was, say, when they'd started the the roll of bacon, there always used to be some little bits before they got the full rashers, well, you couldn't sell those, you couldn't s I mean even though things were tight in those days, you couldn't sell any sort of bacon, you either sold best back, or you sold belly bacon. And the bits that you got off, well, we poorer families used to have it then. Had to have that. Eggs were twenty four a shilling, little little eggs, looked like bullet eggs, came from Egypt. You still had to ask your Dad for a top off the egg if you were if you were a poor family. [speaker002:] So only your Dad got an egg? [speaker003:] On occasions, yes. When he was in work, and then sh we used to go to the local butcher's shop on a Saturday night, with the old bag, six o'clock Saturday night to Mr 's. That's where 's is now on on the hill. And my Dad used to say Go to Mr 's, and tell him you've come for your Dad's meat. Half a crown and that's what you got. Now half a crown in those days was a lot of money, you had to a full day's work for half a crown, make no mistake on that. Half a crown And you used to come away with a big piece of flat brisket and if he's got any sausage left, or bits a of pork pies, he used to shove a bit of that in. And Mr, me Dad wants to know if you've got a ham bone? He says one day, me lad, if you don't come back quick, he said, I shall sell it, threepence, and there was a lot of ham of it, in those days. Bones. From the butchers. Potherbs. [speaker002:] What? Can you explain what potherbs is? [speaker003:] Well, I told you what potherbs was, potherbs is what you buy, you go and you perhaps get a couple of sticks of c celery, that was taken off the side, you know? The trimmings. Carrots. Parsnips. Turnips. Onion. And they used to make two penny worth up and that's what they called potherbs, in those days. Why they were called potherbs, don't ask me, but it was always known as potherbs. Two penny worth of bones from the butchers, and two penny worth of potherbs. Now that used to go in the old stew pot and they used to boil the bones till the meat dropped off, and the vegetables And that was your most of your meal for the rest of the week. And in the morning you used to have soaky very few pe very few lads had breakfast, bacon and eggs, in those days. It was soaky or porridge. [speaker002:] What's soaky [speaker003:] Porridge? Soaky? Soaky was a basin full of bread, with sugar and milk and er a basin full of tea, with sugar and milk, and bread soaked in it. And you used to have that, that was your breakfast. And we Nestle's milk. Nestle's milk conjures up a lot of memories for me. [cough]. We had it in all ways, shapes and forms. Spread on your bread, eat it by the spoonful, great big chunks of thick bread with Ho e home made jam,y your Mam didn't buy those jams in those days, me darling. [speaker002:] She made her own, did she? [speaker003:] She made her own chutney, and made her own pickles, even though she was at work. She used to make all the And er home-made wine. And always in my attic, in our bedroom, as kids, you could always see dried dock leaves and dried stinking nanny, for poultices, for abscesses and boils. Always. And tea. You always had a bush, that was horrible! Detestable stuff, but my Dad always insisted that we had an egg cup full, once a week. [speaker002:] What was if for? [speaker003:] To keep your blood clear. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] And always on a Sunday morning, when you got up, Sunday morning, epsom salts. A little, enough to cover a silver threepenny bit, in a saucer and some tea on it, and you just had to take it, drink it. To keep your bowels right. And as I was saying about all this, you're saying What did my Mother do to eke it out? Eke the food out? She used to go to the butchers and get breast of lamb, scrag-end, sheep's head, pig's head. And if she got half a pig's head she used to cut the pig's head in half and used to use the top half, and that was where the ears was, and everything, boil it until all all the meat dropped off and then she used to put in er a big basin, scrumple it up in her fingers, put some of the juice in, and put a seven pound weight on it, and a saucer, and make brawn. Now the bottom half,th it's j jaw, you used to boil that and make chap of it, pig's chap, and that was a luxury. Beautiful. You don't s see it today, but's it's beautiful. [speaker002:] What is it? [speaker003:] Pig's chap, it's a pig's pig's jaw, the bottom jaw. Th this part here. [speaker002:] Cheek? [speaker003:] Y yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Pig's cheek. But it's called pig's chap, [LAUGHTER] in those days []. [cough]. And on a S Monday, it were always killing day at the Co-op, always killing day. Then on a Tuesday, they used to make the black puddings, the plonney the scratchings, the potted meat, and they used to come on sale. You used to see all the scratchings and all stu steaming hot, with the black puddings and the plonney shining like silver sixpences. And the pork dripping, beef dripping. Oh yes, it was marvellous, that's how they used to make it, in those days. Then they You dropped the old er breasts of lamb in the old stew pot, chop it up, and then if there was any left, me Mam used to take it out, so we could eat it cold. Beautiful s er breast of lamb is, if you've never tried it, my duck. Get a breast of lamb. Get your butcher to bone it, make a nice stuffing, roll it up, wrap it in a nice bit of tinfoil, stick it in the oven and you've got a beautiful meal, me darling. Or the old roast brisket. Brisket. You used to do the old brisket, in the saucepans, along with the potherbs and so forth. Pearl barley, you don't hear pearl barley now. By God, it was a must in those days, pearl barley. Y [speaker002:] What was it used for? [speaker003:] With cooking, like rice. And we used to put it in stews. You put it in stews, my duck. Oh yes, and er of course mostly, in these outlying districts, you mostly grew your own vegetables. And it was always a ritual for the gardeners to have new potatoes and peas ready for Wake Sunday. [speaker002:] When's that? [speaker003:] That was the last Saturday in July, the nearest Saturday to St Peter's. And we always have used to have that on a Wake Sunday. New potatoes, home grown new potatoes. And s i if you were lucky, some ham. Then on a Sunday night, the village, what they call wakes, they call them wakes in those days, not the village fair, it was the wakes. Mr used to open up his dragons and start his steam engine and driving the organ, and he used to give an organ recital every wakes' Sunday night for the cot fund. Cos we used to have support so many cots in the children's hospital, and we used to run concerts. Mr Len, well known man. was running all this for the Ruddington cot funds. [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] was the fire brigade chief, was a newspaper man [], and this was how we ran in this village. We ran all sorts of little things, see? And it was a very friendly little village. My mother, apart from being a skivvying, she used to go out with along with Mrs, doing the hatched, matched and dispatched department. Now, do you know what that is? Well, that's the births, marriages and deaths. And if anybody was sick, in those days, and they were nearly dying, we used to sit up with them, night after night. And if they died, we us I helping my moni my Mother many at time, to wash them down, before they put them in the coffins. Put the false teeth in, and the pennies in the eyes, and and that sort of thing. [speaker002:] Did she get paid for doing that? [speaker003:] Aye. And then you'd send for Mr, the undertaker, or Mr, and he'd come along and measure and then make your coffin. I've got my Mother's bill here, I'll show it you. [tape change] That was what, that was nineteen twenty eight, when I started work and I worked for and M., House, Road. And er I used to get se seven and sixpence a week, seven and sixpence a week. And of course I wa I was due to learn the trade, I wasn't an apprentice. I was due to learn the trade from start to finish with the with the idea of getting myself up to getting on the road. So I started as an errand boy and half a crown a week was my bus fare, which give me, entitled me two journeys, a return journey each day. [speaker002:] From to Nottingham? [speaker003:] From, it was fourpence, return. Or if you wanted to go home for your dinner and go back again in the afternoon, well, that was four and sixpence, which entitled you to do a Saturday journey. And you used to have a little ticket, with the days on, and they used to punch it with the old, you remember the old punching machines, don't you? Well they used to punch your ticket, with a little hole in, so that they'd know you'd had your journey. Now as I say, I started at that price and I used to have to help in the warehouse, in the packing and so forth, and then if there was any parcels to go into Nottingham I used to have to deliver them, by hand. And carry them, either carry them, or push them on a two-wheeled trolley, all through the round the lace market to 's, and various other And if I were lucky, and the 's van was going round the lace market, and I'd got three or four parcels, I used to go with little Tommy and his horse and van, round the lace market, and he was delivering dress goods then. And then he used to pick the undress goods up to go to G and W 's, still down Road. See? And er of course, as years went by I got to a to be on the invoicing side, after that. [speaker002:] So you? That was an office job was it? [speaker003:] Yeah. That was making the invoices out for the parcel. Oh, and then I went u started as a packer after that, packing, which was an art, in those days. H we had to pack hampers, and so forth, see? And big parcels. And then I went on invoicing. And then from invoicing, I went into the factory, of course, to learn how the goods were made, which was very interesting. You see the i it was er we used to make curtains then for Littlewoods, Littlewoods as it is now, they're still, you know, the they were about the [LAUGHTER] forerunners [] of the er tt this er catalogue business, and if they gave us an order that would last us a long time, and that usually the eight points, which was meant to say there were eight threads to an inch. That's how you measured curtains in the quality of the curtains was so many points to an inch. The more points to an inch, the finer the goods were, you see? If it was just a six point, or a seven point, then it was a real coarse one, cheap, for American markets. But we used to Littlewoods used to give us an order, for one machine, or two machines, and you could keep your machine on this one particular set of curtains, without changing your jacks, without changing your beams, without changing your bodies, you could work straight on and on and on. Well, they used to do them at fourpence ha'penny a pair, and each one must be put in a big envelope, so as it could go out on this catalogue business. And that sort of stuff used to go to America, because in er we had quite a big American market in those days because they didn't wash curtains in America, they used to put them up until they dar until they dropped down and then put new curtains up, you see? And er... we er tt... we er... we made er a lot of blackout stuff during the war, we had they called the Federation of British Industries, which was an annual fair at Birmingham, and my firm used to s used to exhibit there. Bu and er [cough] of course, most of your work was done from these Federation stores, stalls, Birmingham and London. [cough] And I recall at the beginning of the war, [cough] they got a an almost light-proof black out curtaining, and I can re see it today, The Queen bought some, they were on exhibition. Buckingham Palace I should say, not the Queen, but Buckingham Palace bought some. And I can remember tenneyex telex coming through and we did our own er er signs in those days, you know, er advertising placards, it was red hot on the press. Blackout curtaining, as bought by Buckingham Palace. And of course, you couldn't keep pace with it, because Buckingham Palace had bought it you see, and it was good. [speaker002:] What were these blackout curtains made of, then? [speaker003:] Well it was er, a dense, thick, curtain, so dense that it was hardly visible, because in those days, during the first world war, during the thirty nine forty five war, blackout was essential. You can't remember the blackout, can you? You see the idea, was if you had lights in your house and there was just a kink, or chink, they used to call them in those days, they could be spotted from the air, so th You either had wooden shutters at your window, or blackout curtaining. You weren't allowed to show any lights. Even the, what few bits of lorries were on the road, they had a special mask on with er a shield over the top, so that the light wasn't visible up above. Cos, probably you don't realize that, even a cigarette light,... if you drew a cigarette, like that, and er and made it glow, it's visible for quite a few hundred yards in the darkness. And consequently we was all subject, and you were fined very heavily if you were, if you tore these what's- a-names, blackouts, that's the name. And then of course, we we also made the, at my firm, made the er Battle of Britain curtain, which was very famous, in those days, and I think they're still I used to have one but I don't know where the devil it went to. Cos it, most of the things got lost during the war, you know? Dra [speaker002:] That was the [recording ends]

[speaker001:] eighty nine, I mean nine ninety one. I'm ninety one, [speaker002:] And [speaker003:] and I'm born the last day in April. [speaker002:] And whereabouts were you born? [speaker003:] On Street. [speaker002:] And er, could you tell me a little bit about your family? What did your father do for a living? [speaker003:] Me father was a showman. [speaker002:] And how did he come to be that? [speaker003:] He went to er College, and he used to wear a mortar board, cos that's the tassel hanging down, and this here thing. And me mother, she lived at, that's not far from Peterborough, and she er Me father used to go to this here farm, me mother lived, and of course they got in with each other, then they got married and then they wanted to buy a caravan. He wanted to be a gypsy, what they used to called them, then. And er on the road. He used to go to Goose Fair, and all the fairs, whatever they was, but it was only for three days. [speaker002:] Did you do a lot of travelling around the country? [speaker003:] Oh, miles,mil Never stop anywhere, only three days, so we got no time for anything. [speaker002:] So what about your schooling, then? [speaker003:] Schooling? Well to tell you the truth, I went to own school, when it was er winter, when it comes the winter, they bate somewhere for the winter, do you see? And I went there for a little bit, and then we moved on, moved off from there, do you see? And er when I did go to school, er all the bottom of er Mill there used to be all sand banks, and me and the other girl, we we came from this school, to look at this here man with a bear, a big bear. He'd got a pole, with a bear dancing round it. And I know the little tune, what he danced to, [singing] tiddly-om-pom-pom, tiddly-om-pom-pom,, tiddly-om-pom-pom []. And another with a German band, he'd got everything on him. And you know what that tune was? [singing] Dee- da-dee-da, la, la, la, tiddle-diddle-liddle-liddle, da ah ah []. I don't kn [speaker002:] And can you tell me a bit about your mother, did she ever work, at all? [speaker003:] Well she Me mother, she worked, she had to work. Everybody had to work, and them show people could take a er big machine down and put them up. Do you see? [speaker002:] ? [speaker003:] Everybody'd got to work, and know and something. Everybody. [speaker002:] And did you have many other brothers and sisters? [speaker003:] Mm? [speaker002:] Did you have many other brothers and sisters? [speaker003:] Well, they had about twenty. [speaker002:] And y all involved in doing the show-work? [speaker003:] Ch eh, everybody'd got to do something. On yes. [speaker002:] What what did you do then? [speaker003:] Pardon? [speaker002:] What did you do? How did you help out? [speaker003:] Well, I was like the rest, I'd got to help out standing at the stalls, like. Roll up my lads, roll up my lads. Come on, [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] my duck, try your luck. Come on you, try your luck. Eh, that's a good lad. Hit him at top of his head. See? And all that kind of thing.. [speaker002:] And what what stalls did yo? [speaker003:] Eh? [speaker002:] What stall did you have? [speaker003:] What had er boats, we had hoopla, and er a coconut shy,, what you call it. Now what did we use to say to that? [singing] I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts, they're all standing in a row, big ones, small ones, one's as a big as head, oh give a twist, of the wrist, the showman said. I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts [] Roll up my lad, roll up. Penny a ball, penny a ball. Roll.. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm d so what el Did you go to church at all, or anything like that? [speaker003:] Oh, I went to church, oh yes. And we used to have a little card, when we went to church we'd got put a little star, in the squares, and if we didn't go we got a good hiding. See? So we'd got to take the card and show her the Mother, we'd been. Now erm let's see, now you know at er bottom of Lane here? On the opposite side, on the l on the left left hand side? All fields. Where where am I? D down there, all fields they were. And on this side, erm corn, cornfields. And er that ain't been long been built on, that hadn't, nineteen er twenty nine those houses were built, do you see? And er let's see, oh and here in Street, there used to be a little. And at the corner there was a, and at the back of that, this, there was a little pub. You used to have to go down three steps, and they used to fetch the beer in a jug. Then it er it er came on Lane, do you see?... Take it off, again. [speaker002:] Now er Now could you tell me a little bit about your school life? Do you remember any teachers? [speaker003:] Well I don't li er I was in one class each time I went. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I never got out that number one class [], you see? But I could do it, I could do me sums and everything, but er I never always in number one class. Wherever I went, I went school, I was in number one class, do you see? But I should have got higher if I'd been stopping. [speaker002:] Do you remember any teachers? [speaker003:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Do you remember any teachers? [speaker003:] Ah, only Miss, and Miss, and I can't remember the others. I remember going to 's school, and er they put in front of us, I were very young, put in front of us a lot of s colours, cottons. So when it had come playtime I went home. I said, They've put this here for me to eat, Mam, and I'm not going to eat cotton. She said, Well, you're not going there any more. So, we when packed off and went somewhere else, do you see? That's how it was, I never went to school proper. [speaker002:] And did you have any other friends? Did you have any friends from school or any friends from your neighbourhood? [speaker003:] We didn't stop for neighbourhood, we used to be, it was r everybody mixed up. [speaker002:] So how did you make any friends? Through the through the show people? [speaker003:] Oh yes, mhm. We er You always made friends with people, could talk to people and if they want to miserable they can be miserable, you'd got to tell them a tale, whether you know it or not. See? And that's my trouble,i it comes out like that? [speaker002:] Mm. Did you remember of the things you did with your friends? Any things you did when you played? Any games? [speaker003:] Hopscotch, when we'd got a pavement, we'd more fields than er [LAUGHTER] pavements [].. And we used to have er we used to have some donkeys, and we used to have to get those ticked. Push them along, you know? And er horses Oh I could saddle a horse and r I can ride a horse,no not racing horses, you know, but I can just ride them. We used my sister used to shove me one side, my Dad used to say to her, Go fetch them horses, out the field. She says, Alright. So my sisters er When we was coming down the lanes, now them country lanes, weren't all done nice, they were grass, where the carts used to come through. And I used to like the gates, where because sit on it, get on the gate and get on the horse's back. You see? And er I remembering Dad, once he bought a cherry tree, and went up to get all these here cherries off the trees, and when we got them we used to wipe them and put them in a bag, and sell them at the fairs. Do you see? Er a coconut, erm brandy snap, and all that kind of things. And we used to have skittles, and what you'd got to do, for skittles you got to throw to knock them down, do you see? I used to have to shove them up, they used to get knocked s, if they won, a few little ducks, you see? And er [speaker002:] So how old were you when y you left school? Or wh wh when you started working [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker002:] proper? [speaker003:] Let's see, you ain't got it on here.... Ah, I'd be er, when I left school? I don't know. [speaker002:] What was your first job? [speaker003:] Well me first job was d er down lace market, and I worked in Street, Hill, and at the back there was all lodging houses, do you see? And at dinnertime we used to look through this window and we could see all the lodging houses, and under the beds You could see them in bed. And under the bed there was a basket, and we used to see the chap [phone rings] come down and wash these, what was in the mass it was kippers, and conga eel. It's true. Then they used to come down the street, I've got some lovely conga eels, stinks a bit, but not a deal. They're awful, the were what was under the bed. And then I used to have t er a wicker basket with three wheels on, taking parcels to different firms. And er we used to go down, and you could er shake hands with each other from each bedroom window, down there. And what they used to sell a er er at er in the lace market at dinnertime, they used to make a big roly pudding, like that, with jam in it and sauce on it, white sauce, it was more water than sauce, you know? Them was used college puddings. And er it you get? Oh we used to have to get hap'orth of the er this j this er r er jam roll, you see? And [speaker002:] Can you remember your first wages? [speaker003:] Yes, I can. Four and six a week. Yes, four and [speaker002:] How many? What were y? What hours did have to work? [speaker003:] Er eight o'clock at night, eight in the morning. Now when er when I was coming down er, coming from, I lived on the Green then, to go to work, we used to met er a person and we used to call her Rosie. And she'd got a big black hat on, and a big black cloak, and all er crosses down here, and she's got a boot on her arm all laced up, and nobody'd know whether she were a man or a woman. And she used to live er in, in the lace market. Then there was another one, outside the church, they'd made a hole for a man to sit in there, and he used to sell papers. Then there was er [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] another one, what do we ca? What did we call her now? Oh, she'd got a relia religious mania, and she used to sing beautiful. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] All of them. Now what else was there?... As I'll have to fetch it off, I've got [speaker002:] Did you do a any other jobs at all? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] jobs? I got no end jobs. [] You know, when I used to take my parcels, well I used to say to him, How much would you give me if I come and work for you? Sixpence. I says, I get four and six. Alright, we'll give you five shilli I left. I went to another. [speaker002:] And how many different places do you think you worked at? [speaker003:] Oh I remember when I was when I was on the Green, there were two ladies, there used to be a pub called the er erm What was that pub called, now? Anyway, it was on the Green, and she says to her, I'd like a drink. She says er, Alright, let's go and have one., is that it?. And er when they got er they went on a little whisky, well there weren't much about threepence, do you see? She says, You know what our Joe wants for his dinner, tea? He wants herring. She said, Can't afford it, can you? She says, Can't. So you sup up, and have another whisky. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] What were your bosses like? [speaker003:] Eh? [speaker002:] What were your bosses like at work? [speaker003:] Oh, they were alright. Now I remember the boss Mr, oh won't tell you his name. Er well his Mr and Miss er n forgot her name, but I do remember that when the Titanic went down, these two persons, well they were going away together. See? But they got down. That were nineteen eleven, when that went down. [speaker002:] Do you remember any any of your different bosses? Wha what they thought about you? How did they treat you, you're different foremen [speaker003:] You what? [speaker002:] and things? [speaker003:] You what? [speaker002:] How did your different bosses treat you? [speaker003:] Oh, they was alright. Yeah, they were alright. I er I were very active, you know, I was. [LAUGHTER]. They used to have the Years ago, they used to have er big and lace, like this, and I used to make all that bandage, for the lace. And I was downstairs and they used to be up upstairs was the man what cut all the stuff up, do you see? And er tt there used to be whistle, you know, like a telephone is? We used t er we used whistle, we used to blow this whistle and tell him what material we wanted, do you see? And that were exciting. He used to shout at me, and I used to shout at him. [LAUGHTER]. Oh they was alright with me, everybody were alright with me. And er [speaker002:] ? [speaker003:] I'm just trying to remember that j Oh erm down on Road, here, where the vicarage is, it used to be a pub, because the vicarage were over here at once upon a time. And then it went down there, and then it was er er a registerer, and then the vicar come from this place, here, down to that one. You see? And er just round the corner on Street,, there were two two houses, that was a prison. There. And the cellars were there, where the men used to be, but they're all down now,y so you can't say anything about all that lot now. And er [speaker002:] Can er Tell me a little about your friends you had at work, going back to your talking about work. Can you tell me about any friends you er you made at work? [speaker003:] Oh I were making up friends I was. I can make friends with anybody. [speaker002:] Do you remember any any funny stories you that can tell us? [speaker003:] Eh? [speaker002:] Do you remember any funny stories? [speaker003:] Oh eh, and not half. I. I remember my mother saying to me once, she says er, I've got a lovely dinner for you today, my duck. I never used to have much to eat, you know? I says, Oh, alright then, I said I can see everyone checking the er basins in the big oven, my duck. I says, Alright. And when it come time, you know what it was? Mashed potatoes and turnips. Have you got a dinner today,? I says Aye. You see? And sometimes I walked down lace market for me dinner and m And er we used to have to go on er on green, for three penn'orth a breast of mutton, to make stew and hap'orth of mixed potherbs, and do together and it were lovely. That's how they used to live there, at them times. [speaker002:] Did you have many many friends outside of work? [speaker003:] Yes, our mother used to says to me, she said erm, Now this here's, my duck. This is when we settled down, from show business. And she says b and be careful with it, I says, Alright. So that's all we got threepence. So be careful with it. I says,Al alright then, I will, Mam, and out of that threepence er I used to save a penny a week, well a penny was lot then. And i I got er twelve shilling saved up, well that was a lot of money. And er she says, Where did you get that money from? I said I saved it Mam. She says You're a very good girl, she says Now will yo we shall have a nice Sunday dinner, you see? And we used to go, she used to go down er down the, down town i and fetch er er a fish what were left, threepenny cod for about tuppence, you see? And er there might be some sausage, a it, it was alright then. And er oh, we used to have plenty of er stews, and dumplings in it, or er spotted dick, what we used to call it, with a c sauce on it. And er I'll have to knock off a minute. [speaker002:] Can we take it on a bit now, could you tell me when you got married? [speaker003:] Nineteen thirteen, when I got married, and me husband was a lace trader. And he worked at, up. And he got me a house at, two shilling a week, and eightpence for coal. [speaker002:] And how big was the house? [speaker003:] Oh, one up, one down, you go down the entry, round the back for the water, and the lavatory was round the back, and in this lavatory [LAUGHTER] somebody hung themselves []. And I said, I'm not going to that lavatory no more, he said, [LAUGHTER] Where yo where you going then? [] Yes, and then er What did I do? [speaker002:] Did you carry on working when you got married? [speaker003:] Oh, I had to do. And when I started children I used to go out scrubbing, and cleaning. Taking me children with me, too. One at each end of the carriage, for one and six. [speaker002:] And how much did your husba? [speaker003:] A day. [speaker002:] How did your husband get for? [speaker003:] He got twelve shilling a week. Twelve shilling a week, he got. And after that he was er T B and he had to go in hospital. [speaker002:] So how did you manage to pay for that? [speaker003:] I had to go to work, go get another job. Anything. There were no er, there was no assistant, then. If you got, so what I got. Up and down the Green, selling selling it. I'm us I were used to selling things. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] And what type of thing? How did you? What type of food did you buy, because it must have been difficult stretching your money out? [speaker003:] Well, to tell you truth, up Deadman's Street, there used to be a big er meat shop, and we used threepenny wrap up, we used to get two chops, piece of liver, three pieces of sausages, for that, threepenny wrap up. [speaker002:] And did you used to make cheap [speaker003:] And we used to get the fish flaps, but nobody else would have them, you know? Two pairs of flaps. [speaker002:] Er how many children did you have? [speaker003:] Ten. I've got six living. I've got four sons and two daughters. And there's [speaker002:] Ho? [speaker003:] three on them, on the pension. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Ho? How did you manage to look after them on such a small wage? [speaker003:] Oh, I looked after them. I used to wash at night, and get them all dry, get up in the night, iron them, and take them to the pawn shop. [speaker002:] Did you have to take a lot to the pawn shop?. [speaker003:] They used to take flat irons, women's corsets, or anything. And if you'd got a good suit, you'd take that, then fetch it out for the weekend, so they'd looked decent, and when you took it back on Monday and he said I'll have to drop you on that, Ah, so you won't this week. You see? This d That's true, my duck. Yeah. [speaker002:] Now, what about at home,h how did you do your cooking? What did you cook on? [speaker003:] Fire. And I lived in a back-to-back houses, and concrete floors, no no carpets on. that them back-to-back and on Saturday night were the, when our mother, when they used to go out. Next door, they'd got a lot of kids and they used to play marbles, and they used to bounce on these concrete floors. And if they'd had a row, you could hear him. I wouldn't half. And was used to have to er I'm talking about on the Green, now, we used to have to go er right out the gate, half way up the street, for water and the lavatory, it was hard to pull up. And you'd got to take a knife, in one hand [whispering] paper in the other [] paper in the other for business. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Well, must have been hard doing your washing, then. What [speaker003:] Well we did it. [speaker002:] your washing. [speaker003:] We did it. Oh aye, boil them on the fire, oh aye, we. I always kept the kids cleaned. [speaker002:] And can you think of any ways you you managed to spin your money out? [speaker003:] Well, when I went to live at, the kids are growing up, do you see? And er one of the daughters used to work at Lane, Ah, that's it. Lane. Now,tha this place at Lane, they used to make typewriting machines, and that. And she'd got to say whoever er work for least money, got the job. Now they used to call er black sheep, Players, angels. But the other place, Barlop, er anybody who worked for less, they did. While we were bad off she had to take that job, my eldest daughter. And when she come back, her had were covered in splinters with er bits of stuff of the machine. But she left there and got another job in. And er the other daughter, when we lived up, she had to go there for six er, and I used to ge had to get up, and bring her right down the lane, and then I'd got to walk back, up that lane meself, you see? I'm still here. [speaker002:] Well, thanks very [speaker003:] Eh? [speaker002:] much Mrs, [speaker003:] Eh? [speaker002:] Thanks very much. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] I ain't bore [] [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Can you tell me a little bit about your family? What did your father do for a living? [speaker002:] My father was a miner, all his life. Well I say all his life er er early, in the early days he was er a groom to a veterinary surgeon in Manchester. And er course I I don't know a lot about his early life cos er I was young [LAUGHTER] to remember it. [speaker003:] And er what pit was he at? [speaker002:] He w er he was in er at Underwood. He worked at Underwood Pit when they were came to this district and then they came into the Newthorpe Common district and er and then er we moved from Newthorpe Common and he went to Williamthorpe for a short while, only from erm probably eighteen months to two years, that's as much as did there. And er we lived at a village called Homewood near Heath there, then we moved back from there He moved back to er Underwood again. And mother kept a shop, a sweet shop, on Eastwood, opposite where they eventually built the Eastwood Empire. [speaker003:] And what did your Father do er as a miner, what was his job? [speaker002:] He was a butty on the coal face. [speaker003:] And what did that entail? [speaker002:] [cough] That en entailed employing men to get the coal, and er he was responsible for the wages, he was paid by contract the amount of coal that er he produced, his stall produced. You see? And er from that he paid his men a wage and er if there was any left over, that was his. [LAUGHTER] And [speaker003:] And [speaker002:] and er [speaker003:] S [speaker002:] and on Friday, on that Friday Mother used to go to Eastwood Hall to collect the er er the wages that my Father had to pay out to the men. And then he'd bring that home, you see? She'd bring that home and er the men would all congregate then round the table at home, and he would pay them out. And sometimes he had to go upstairs to fetch some of his own money [LAUGHTER] to put to it to pay them out. That was before there was a minimum wage. [speaker003:] And what sort of wages were they getting? Do you know? [speaker002:] Well I I'd couldn't really swear to anything of that description, but it was it was before the er er old age pensions came out because I remember my Grandmother lived with us and er I remember the first week that she drew her five shillings old age pension. [LAUGHTER] [cough] When would that be? Nineteen eleven? [speaker003:] Yeah, something like that? [speaker002:] Was I think, nineteen eleven. Er that was at the time of er er King Edward the seventh,s It was time of his death wasn't it? I think. Er er At at that time too it was er we the the sinking of the Titanic. The ship within a ship. I I remember as a kid hearing of all this er how the Titanic sank on her maiden voyage, the ship within a ship. [speaker003:] Yeah. To come back to your family a little bit, erm did you have any Brothers or Sisters? [speaker002:] Oh yes. Yes there's a I had two Brothers and one Sisters. And of course the old joke goes like er I got two brothers and each brothers got a sister and I've got a sister. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Er were they older than you? Younger than you were? [speaker002:] Er no er I was the second eldest. Er my eldest brother now is eighty two. I'm eighty. My younger brother is er seventy eight tomorrow and my sister is seventy two. [speaker003:] Er could you tell me a little bit about the schools you went to? What what school did you first go to? [speaker002:] I started school to er Bowvale School on Dovecote Lane at Eastwood, when I was two and a half. My Brother used to take me. And er I stayed there at that school until nineteen hundred and twelve. [speaker003:] And have you got any memories of that school at all, of teachers, what they were like? Perhaps? Or the lessons you had? [speaker002:] We used to On a Monday, when it was wash day, we used to have to take sandwiches for dinner and we used to have to eat it under the shed in the school playground. Can always remember that. And er I know er we used to put er i er kind of er Bit of er play on once a year, there. And er I got roped into it one year because I had to stop in for something or other that I Course I hadn't done but [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And er I I was pulled in to take a little part in this play er I remember that. [speaker003:] What play was that? [speaker002:] Erm it was about It was about aeroplanes and it was when aeroplanes were in the very early stage. And there was a song I can't quite Can't quite remember it now. What the song was that we had to sing on this stage, with it. [cough] And I used to go to the Methodist Chapel that was opposite the school, there. And er I I joined the Band of Hope there and I signed the pledge. [speaker003:] What what was that? What was the Band of Hope? [speaker002:] It was a s er like a Sunday school Bible class. Er and er I say I signed the pledge never to touch intoxicating liquors, which I kept [LAUGHTER] for until I was thirty five. I was thirty five before I ever touched a drop of intoxicating liquor. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And erm er Have you got any other memories about your school, can you remember any of the teachers? [speaker002:] Yes erm a The er headmaster at d lim at er at er Bellvale schools was then Mr. His name was Mr. He was a very strict man the headmaster, cos I remember one little incident that I thought was rather harsh. Er they used to march us round the playground you see and er I was in the back row and of course the teacher was at the front more or less. And er I was dragging behind a few paces and the headmaster was watching out of his study window you see? And er he called me in, I had the cane for that and I had to tell the mess [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] boy []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And what about the kind of lessons you ha you had? What sort of lessons did you have? [speaker002:] Well we had slates then, I can remember we had slates and er we used to have arithmetic lessons and er history. I can remember those sort of things, what we used to have to do. But er... it was only u until I left the school cos I was only a matter of eight when I left that school so er I wasn't in a it wasn't in any progressive sort of style then I mean we wer it was more rudiments of education that we were taught and er [speaker003:] What what where did you move to when you moved from that school? [speaker002:] We moved from there to Gedling [cough] [speaker003:] And why was that? [speaker002:] We moved Dad came to Gedling pit. By the way they they sank Gedling pit, they cut the first sod the year I was born nineteen oh two. And er little history of that, that was sunk by some Irishmen and they reckon they sank the iri they sank that pit without the aid of a plumb-bob. [LAUGHTER] how true it is. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] A German firm froze the the b the the the the b sandstone There's a er the What do they call it? The bunters the bunters. That was water and the German firm sunk the Froze that while they went through it. But coming back, we moved again as I say and it was in the er winter. And it was a terrible winter that winter, there was about a foot of snow on the ground and I remember Slayney's moved us with er er a pair of horses and er and er a little removal van. And I can I can vividly remember now coming along Nuthall Road towards Nuthall from Kimberley [cough] and seeing all the telegraph wires hanging down, pushed down to the floor, broken, with the weight of snow. And that was I it was, as I was saying in early January. Er that was in nineteen hundred and twelve, that was. And twelve or eleven, nineteen elev I either eleven or twelve. [speaker003:] Do you remember your school once you had moved? [speaker002:] Then I moved from th er I went into er the board school at Carlton. Opposite the Blacks Head pub. Went in there and a Mr, he was the headmaster then, nice chap. But you see I I got a vivid ginger hair, real red, you see? So consequently every time I moved school, moved into different I had to fight me way there for the first week because I hated anyone to call me Ginger you see? So. Yes. And erm. I didn't stay at that school long before I moved down to erm the er Tins School on Chandler Street. That was a series of tin corrugated iron classrooms, that was, and the first The first teacher I had there was a Mr and he got a real fierce face and a fierce tash and [LAUGHTER] he [] he was a r a right lad he was. And in the He he he'd give you the thrashing if just lifted your fingers up. And we used to There at there at that school every morning we hads to line in the in the playground and he used inspect your hands for cleanliness, and your shoes. Your shoes always had to be clean, brushed, you see? But our trouble was that to get to it we had to we had to walk across the recreation ground and there was the River Ouse The Ouse Dyke it was, and w we we couldn't resist the temptation of jumping across this dyke you see? So we were always in trouble for appearing w We got dirty shoes you see? So we evolved a brilliant idea of hiding a brush in an old tree at the end of the dyke so that we could brush the dirt off afore we got there. But that was that was quite a good school, went through there via a Mr, he was a very nice teacher, very efficient, and he didn't believe in the cane, he didn't. He er he believed in other punishment Lines and that description But er I liked that chap er very nice chap. And that was The headmaster there was Mr he was. And from there we moved to the the secondary school that is now at Station Road at Gedling, it was a new school, brand new school built, er purpose built. And er we the tea the class All the boys It were all boys er we we had to carry Each carry a chair up to the new [LAUGHTER] school []. And erm ut er th that that was quite a quite a good school, quite a modern school but I I'd er I'd er I wasn't able to stay there long because I was approaching my thirteenth birthday you see than. I did go to night school there to to learn joinery. They used to have a joinery class there. But er I went from there er I er I was thirteen on August the twenty fifth, nineteen fifteen. That's right. And of course we broke up, we broke up on the first of August er for the er month holiday you see? But er I'd er got a [LAUGHTER] job []. Don't know how I got it when my Father got it for me. In the offices at Gedling pit, and I started work on August the third. That was three weeks before I was four thirteen then. In the in the time office. And and er and there er I began to learn what the what what things were beginning to happen in the coal fields. From right from the time office er I used to go into blacksmith shop to mash tea because that's where we used to We used to be able to go and take the cam for the timekeeper and I was in the stores too, and er mash the tea in the forge They put the kettle on the forge you see? And I mashed the tea and made it and a fitting shop was there too. Er [speaker003:] What what what did you actually have to do? When you worked in the time shop? [speaker002:] Er well I was in the time office in the first place, the men used to er cl check in, they used to bring the checks you see? brass checks, numbered. [cough] And I'd got a board with all the numbers on and hooks you see? And as they came along we used to have to hang these checks on the number you see? And then the timekeeper could mark down that they were present, they'd gone to work that day you see? And of course that was the wages book, that was made up out of that. And er and they the the afternoon shift used to come on and I used to have to carry all these checks across then, the yard and take 'em and hang 'em up in the in the check-weigh on the pit top where they weighed the wagons of coals. The the tubs of coal not the wagons. [cough] And er I used to have to prepare the er the er timber er orders for the men in the stall down the er er down the pits. the the deputies had prepared er they'd er there'd be a stall say erm n n nineties or like that might be, and the order for them would probably be, Twelve four foot props, and twelve bars, you see? That was a timber prop and a timber half a prop for a bar to carry the roof. but my instructions were that what the deputy ordered, and I used to make a book up for the yardmen to prepare these. And my instructions were that I I used to either let them have two thirds of that or a half, you see? T er cutting costs. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And what were your wages for that? [speaker002:] Seven and sixpence a week. That was good, that was [speaker003:] What [speaker002:] g good money that was. [speaker003:] What hours did you do for that? [speaker002:] Er I used to get there at six o'clock in the morning. Six o'clock in the morning till four o'clock in the afternoon. Ten hours, yeah. [speaker003:] And y you worked How long did you work f at the ti In the time office? [speaker002:] In the time office, I worked that till I I were I did about er seven or eight months in there, and from there I went on the screens. Were the screen they call 'em. We had to pick the bind out by hand, er the coal was all er sorted on the screens and er er a u u us lads, we used to stand at the side of the belts that were travelling round and tipping the coal into the wagons down below you see? And we used to have to pick the bind out you see? Out of the coal as it came by. And er you see you weren't allowed down the pit till you were fourteen. You'd got to be fourteen. Of course the temptation er er had got to be er we'd got to earn money erm so er Father insisted that down the pit after you're fourteen. As soon as you're fourteen, down the pits you go you see? And er I went into the High Hazel seam. Which is a four hundred yards and it was an inset, the top hard seam was ninety yards lower down at the four hundred and ninety yards to the And the High Hazel used to have an inset. You see the cage used to go down to that and it used to you see? the f the four for you to get off you see? And [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] get on. [cough] Pardon me. And er that's how it was when they were running the coal on, tubs of coal onto it. And er another thing that used to happen though, if anything happened to that shaft, you see? Er there used to be a a a a an inlet to the other shaft, you see there was an inlet shaft that was all boxed in, that was the top hard that went down four hundred and ninety yards you see? Now if anything had been wrong with this shaft we used to have to go to the other shaft [cough] and ride that rope you see? But there there was no facilities for running on you see and when [LAUGHTER] when we had to ride that one, the chair would come down to this inset ninety yards you see? But it was about anything like two to three feet away from the side of the And they used to drop a plank down you see? And you had to run along the plank to get on. And there were a ninety yard [LAUGHTER] dr drop [] [LAUGHTER] but er Had it happen it very often of course, but it was rather unnerving when it did happen. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And wha what did they pay you for this then? [speaker002:] Now what was I on? I wer I started on ten shillings a week there, down there, at er fourteen. Ten shillings a week that was. [speaker003:] And you worked different hours? [speaker002:] Yeah I worked six till... two. Six till two that was. And I worked in the pit bottom for a start, for about three or four months, in the pit bottom. You see coal used to come down one incline and the and and it used to knock the empties off, two empties off, you see? And there was catches on the chair [cough] and you used to be ab A lad used to stand there and he used to pull a lever and he used to level these catches and the tubs would run off and then as two ran off he'd let it go and it would catch the empties you see then. And one of my jobs was to push these empties round and round [speaker003:] The empty tubs? [speaker002:] The empty [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] tubs you see? To go away off up into the workings again. [speaker003:] And what was the sort of clothes you had to wear down the pit? Did you have any safety [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] equipment? [speaker002:] we we used to have mole skins, mother used to buy mole skins because er they wore very well they did. But er a flannel shirt and mole skins but er er [LAUGHTER] That was while you were in the pit bottom you see? And er you see the air used to come down... our shaft. Our shaft was open all open, the other shaft was all boxed in and there was a huge fan you see? Just below the surface of that shaft and that's That used to draw the air down our shaft, all around the workings, you see? And back up this other shaft, you see? Well... I went from the pit bottom I went er stake-ganging then. With a horse, I had a horse then, and er there u there used to be er there used to be three or four of us there with horses [cough] and we we used to The the the From the coal face there used to be all individual horses bringing odd tubs into a turnout What we called a turner which was a collection of different tubs you see? The full tubs. And then that was a short stint that was, so that one horse, called Spring his name was, he was a smasher he was. He used to bring these tubs down into a long turnout. Well our stint was a lot longer than his so he could keep three horses going you see? And there was Captain and my main horse's name was Crudia. I forget what the other one's name was. But er we used to bring these tubs then down from there on to the main road where the rope, the haulage rope travelled you see? And he'd clip them on the clip them on the rope and take 'em to the pit bottom. But er er that was happy days. [speaker003:] In your er early days so you remember any accidents down the pit? [speaker002:] Not er not while I was on this On that job. Except that horses used to get killed. We used to I know er old Captain he he came down as tubs came onto him and broke his neck and he er er funny part of that it was. One week he he broke the record, he pulled f He brought brought forty tubs down and then the following week he got killed and he'd only got seven on.... [speaker003:] And did it Did you move on from that job? [speaker002:] I moved on from that then I was fifteen then, and me Dad was he was a butty and er so er I had to go on the face then. Cos I was fifteen you see? The coal mines act said that I shouldn't go on the face until I was sixteen but er the war was on. It was er nineteen seventeen you see? And so nobody thought about invoking the coal mines act, you just had to go, and er and I went. And er [LAUGHTER] the old man, they they used to call him the iron man [LAUGHTER] and he was the iron man. And I'll never forget him, the first shift I went on afternoon shift. Quarter to three till quarter to ten and er we came out of stall at quarter to ten at night. I'd been loading for him, loading the t coal into tubs and tramming them. And er he was rubbing the coal off his back and was stripped there, we used to be stripped to the waist then. And er he stretched his arms and he said Ooh he said my tired's come and I said, er er, Ee ee Yes I'm afraid mine's come as well, my tired's come. And that I had the nerve and the cheek, the audacity to be tired at fifteen years of age i i it it it wasn't possible. And I thought he'd have flogged me. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And what what did you have to do on the pit face then? [speaker002:] Well you I had to load for h for him you see at first. Er he'd get the coal, you see? And er and then I'd load it up into the tubs and tram it out into the gate. And then the horse would come, bring me two or three empty tubs in you see? And take the full tubs out, you see? that's how they used to work it. [speaker003:] And how how did he get the coal? [speaker002:] Hand got, all hand got then. We used to hole you used hole underneath it, lie on your shoulder and er hole underneath the coal and er wedge it off. [speaker003:] What sort of tools did you use? [speaker002:] We used to have a pick, er er that was a blade that had a slot in it and you had a pick shaft with a box and er a an iron box on the top. And you used to put the pick blade into it and it was A piece cut out of it,th the blade you see? And er then you had a cotter that you drove in underneath it, and it secured the pick because every night, you've got to take those blades out of the pit [cough] and have them sharpened, you see? And there used to be a man had a little forge on the top, a chap named, an old man. And you used to pay him I don't know how mush it was a week now. But you used to have to pay him, once a week, for sharpening your blades, you see? You used to with three or four blades, in time what we see. And er er drop them in the in the blacksmith's shop, and then when he'd finished with them, when he'd done 'em, they'd all be in a tub down at the pit bottom. And you'd go and sort your bundle out you see? And carry them in. [speaker003:] What other tools did you use, any? [speaker002:] Hammer and wedge and shovel. Hammer and wedge and shovel. [speaker003:] And it nev never had any shot firing? [speaker002:] Oh ye i it all depended if you needed er shot firing. you see coal used to lie in in er er different slines what we called slines white slines and yo you had to get your coal line what we call half and half running in half and half. If it was head on, it was hell's delight to get the coal, you see? If it was flat on it was the same because he's got to go right through to the sline before he could get anything you see? Oh we used to hole underneath the coal and er and then er Oh oh we used to have a ringer That was a long steel ringer that you could put behind the slines in the slines and lever the coal off you see? With it. There's an art in getting coal. But er aye it was very very much an art. [speaker003:] What about things like lighting in the pit, what did you do for lighting? [speaker002:] We had oil lamps then, we only had oil lamps, they hadn't invented electric lamps, [LAUGHTER] then. [cough] And you I mean you're gonna get you're only about four foot high you see? And you had to carry your lamp in your teeth, you see? And on your belt, when you're walking and you had a a lamp hook, which was got a very sharp spike on it you see, and when you was working er shovelling, you'd stick it in a prop you see? And they'd hang up, you see? Erm that's how we used to work that is. And it all depended on where you were, now I remember one time we were working and er both ends were in [LAUGHTER] You won't know what that meant. But you see the We'd got no stall that end open to us and no stall that end, and the gate was down but we working to breakthrough to get some fresh air through from there. And er I remember we used to get the gas then, and er that was at a time they were used have an electric lamp we had had one in the stall, you see? One electric lamp the others all be the the butty would have the electric lamp, and he'd also carry an oil lamp for testing for gas, and er I can remember going nearly a whole shift having to carry this lamp right down on the floor, carry it up into the heading you see? And when you got into any gas, a blue flame used to come on the top of your lamp... pop, gone. Back you'd go then to the We used to have a a a a machine then, an electric box affair, that used to put your lamp in, it would set your wick at a certain angle that there wo made a spark and when you'd close this up, it caused a spark that would light your wick again you see? [speaker003:] And what about Was there safter safer ways for testing for gas? For fire damp? [speaker002:] Only canaries. [LAUGHTER] But we didn't have any canaries. [LAUGHTER] No, they only had them the the er rescue operations, rescue men. [speaker003:] Did you have any safety equipment? At all? [speaker002:] Ooh no no no. No we didn't have any safety equipment. [speaker003:] Now [speaker002:] I remember being in one time, with both ends in, like I were talking about, and we haven't got a road out,we Matter of fact we were trying to break through to another district. And er the gate end came in, that's where the gate men And er we were trapped in there, there were three of us, and we couldn't get out, and we were there ooh about twelve hours before they managed to get us out. And er I remember [LAUGHTER] one [] one chap [cough] he were a bit scared, very much so, and oh dear dear dear, he'd only been within other bloke, a chap A chap from, what was his name now? I don't know. He [LAUGHTER]. So of course I had to take my lead from him, I was only youngster then. But er we got out eventually, and they managed to get a road through to us, and but er And er I remember another time where a bank came in and they were one man trapped in the far end and there were another man trapped on this end and my brother and me we we dug round to him, we got to him, we got him bared so far and what To his waist, and it was still bitting and we got hold of his belt, right, ready? Now, pull. You see? And we'd pull and his belt broke, you see? And we shot backwards and down [banging table] it all come again, killed him. If his belt hadn't broke we should have got him out. But er The other chap at the other end, his his name was, Bob. Er they managed to tunnel in for from the other end to him, and er his hairs gone white. [LAUGHTER] Oh er. [speaker003:] Now what about the trade union, were you involved in the trade union? [speaker002:] Well we we had [speaker003:] Miners' association? [speaker002:] Notts Miners' Trade Union then, and a matter of fact me dad was o on the committee, he was a committee member of that, on that. But erm we used to have a little shed, a little hut in the pit yard, where we used to go and pay our dues, every week [speaker003:] How much were the dues? [speaker002:] Only thruppence a week, dues were [cough] scuse me [cough]. And er another thing we had as well, that the union had ar had er [cough] fixed for us, and that was a family doctor. And we used to pay The old man used to pay thruppence a week for the family doctor, you see? So we never had any doctors' bills. [cough] The man used to come round and collect that, a chap named. He used to come and collect that, and er But er... the union... well we were alright A chap named he was the secretary and er and Jack he was the president and me Dad were on the committee, there were several of on the committee. And we did get on reasonably well with the management then,u until we used to run into trouble of course, and er the er nineteen twenty one strike, I can vividly remember that, it was a glorious summer, dead against us nobody wanted any coal and it You had the It gave th the management the opportunity of selling all this All the old stock all the rubbish and everything. Clean the There used to be huge stocks leading right up to Mapperley Pit, of this slag and stuff, and they sold all that off, and er that was the year that fought and Al broke his thumb on him. And y that was the year I met d th I met the wife in that In June of that year. But er it was a tough struggle that was. We did get a bit of u of er union pay then I I couldn't tell you how much it was but it wasn't very much, but er [speaker003:] And why did you go out on strike in the first place? [speaker002:] Well [cough] you see I was nineteen and er really I don't really know why the nineteen twenty one strike was. Except that is was for money, I know it was for money but er I don't know the exact er [cough] Because I think I think in that year, we got what we called the Samuel award, that were three shillings a day, basic, you see? If you only worked half a day you got the three shillings Samuel pay you see? We got that. I were I were er We won that. [cough] It was quite a a long strike them was. Two year three or four months, that strike lasted. While they got cleaned up. [speaker003:] And that strike was lost? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] Wo that strike was lost was it? [speaker002:] It was a it was lost er No I don't think it was entirely lost, not the twenty one strike, wasn't entirely lost. Did we go I er I'm now I'm pretty sure we went home for a seven and a half hour day in twenty one, pretty sure that's what one of the things that we did. Seven and a half hour day, that was the idea. And the same wages. I think you'll find that that was the twenty one strike. [speaker003:] And do you remember the general strike? Do you remember the nineteen twenty six miners' strike? [speaker002:] Oh yes. Vividly. I vividly remember that. There were no strike pay, you just had a promissory note that er [LAUGHTER] if ever they got any money they'd pay you, you see? But er course we n n never got any money because we er m it more or less disbanded the Notts miners' union that did, it er it took everything away was That was when we were er er s the Spencer union was formed more or less by the management. [recording ends] [speaker003:] And so you were telling me about the twenty six strike. [speaker002:] Well it wasn't a strike really, it was a lock out. We were At that time of day the minima the minimum wage was fourteen shillings a day. And they er locked us out until we'd go back for ten and thruppence a day, so of course we didn't go back. And it was a great tragedy cos er it did i i it did cause the general strike and er we had a week of the general strike. [speaker003:] And do you remember how that affected Nottingham?... [speaker002:] Not really we It wasn't. We weren't really interested, particularly in Nottingham, it was the general strike but what we were going to do I mean we'd o er we we'd er already formed, more or less, a government of our own, if you understand me, to take over, you see? If the general strike had lasted, we could have took over, but er Jimmy stepped in and er he was the er he was the er general secretary of the N U R, National Union of Railwaymen, and er [cough] he stepped in and persuaded the government to more or less step in and take over and arbitrate with the miners. Well that was a foolish thing, really cos there were four hundred and forty coal owners in the government, and what they were going to arbitrate in our favour for we couldn't see. But er that is what actually happened and er Jimmy Thomas sold the pass, he was the biggest traitor we ever had. Well from there, that, was evolved the Spencer Union, the [speaker003:] This er After the strike was defeated? [speaker002:] At The strike We we didn't go back. We didn't accept the arbitration, you see? We still stopped locked out. [cough] We were getting no money from anywhere and you had borrowed, you had to pay it back when you went back to work, you see? Anyway er it The outcome of it was that the Spencer Union was formed, George Spencer, er i in collaboration with er the mine owners, you see? And he accepted the ten and thruppence, you see? And we had to go back, you see? Because one reason in Nottingham why they went back was the fact Blidworth Pit was starting to turn coal. They'd just sunk that pit and they were starting to turn coal and the the the miners were straggling back to the new pit you see? And it more or less made it that we'd got to go back for the ten and thruppence. But er we didn't I didn't go back, we'd already we'd we'd got some land and er and we'd set up er pig breeding and er we'd got about a hundred and twenty strong store pigs at that time. And er a horse and dray and float. [cough] Id'er er g got married in er twenty five and er agreed to buy a house in twenty six, January, moved into it and er So er I took over the t horse and dray and er opened the front room as a a shop, a greengrocers shop. We used to grow quite a bit of stuff on the land and er we lived. The wife used to wait for somebody coming in the shop to buy something and then she'd go out and get a a bit of meat and we'd have a dinner, and er we had seven months of that before I was eventually more or less forced to go back. Actually I was flitting people from Gedling to Blidworth with this horse and dray. And er so of course there was no future in it really, so I went back. Me brother was deputy in at the time erm [speaker003:] What When did you go back? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] When did you go back? [speaker002:] I went back in er in the November, just before Christmas. [cough] That's about it isn't it? Seven month. May June July August September October, that's right. And erm I went back but er I we I we I went back er daitling and er I got er a daitle contract. [speaker003:] And what did that mean? [speaker002:] That meant that er we were maintaining the roads, you see? And and enlarging gates er main roads and that sort of thing. And I I used to have er I u I used to have men working for me, you see? [speaker003:] And you were a butty at that time? [speaker002:] I was I was er er we we weren't butties because butties worked on the face, you see? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] We were daitlers we worked on the In the stone, you see? Butties worked in coal, daitlers worked in stone, you see? And er I er carried on with that, going on very nicely, until they decided to mechanize Gedling, you see? And brought the coal cutter in and they they put brought the pans and The shaker pans they used to wear belts then, for shaker pans you see? It used to shake the coal down the b banks. [cough] And they were diffic To start them off, we went in on the Thursday, Thursday morning, and we had to fit all these things together and make 'em work, you see? And it was Sunday afternoon when I came out the pit the next time. [LAUGHTER] They used to send us bread and teas down from Chase Farm. [LAUGHTER] And erm we eventually got these things working... and er I got the contract along with Jack to turn these pans over, you see? As they got one face off we'd turn them, over, the pans had to be turned over and backs built you see? And road ripped ready for the next day you see? And er I got the contract for that. And then when I was about twenty four, twenty four or five I'd got twenty men working for me, so er we weren't doing so bad. And er... then I had trouble with the er with the er afternoon gaffer, chap named. And er we fell out over... a fall really or whatever it was. And er I was informed like that er I I had d stop till six o'clock at night, that night, and I was informed that er I'd got to come back at night and bring me men. So I decided that it was time to pack up I decided that the nights were made to sleep on n n n and I was going to sleep on them you see? So I came out the pit and went into Cripps and bought a lorry. [speaker003:] But while you were still a miner did you have any trouble being in the miners' association when the Spencer Union was? [speaker002:] Never joined it. We never joined it. We still maintained the remnants of the Notts Miners' Association. We still maintained that, because er [speaker003:] Were you victimized [speaker002:] It [speaker003:] because of that? [speaker002:] Oh we were victimized alright, oh yes. Yes we had all the dirty jobs. All the dirty jobs and the tough jobs to do. [speaker003:] What sort of things were that? [speaker002:] Well i if if there was er any new er wanted opening up, which was always a minimum wage job, you see? We had those sort of jobs to do. Like when we opened opened a ninety Z up and we couldn't open that face up, it was hell. They You used to go [LAUGHTER] and [] walk on the face in a morning an and you'd rap on the face with your pick and buggers are green,ther they're not ripe yet. [LAUGHTER] You've got to earn your living out of that. But er we eventually beat it though and as I say a good colliery you could er you could beat 'em to it. Matter of fact Dad, he agreed with the management for er er er You see the management never wanted anybody on the minimum wage, never wanted to be on the min, so he agreed with 'em f for a special price for our coal we got out. And er within a few months we'd got the thing going till they were blowing out, and we were making it hand over fist you see? And [speaker003:] What sort of money were you making on that then? [speaker002:] Oh were making twenty five bob a day then. [speaker003:] And this was after they tried to victimize you? [speaker002:] That's right, [LAUGHTER] yeah, yes. We booked ten pound a week. What we were getting then. And it were a lot of money, a a lot of money, and they pay a lot of benefits out of that now because the old man used to have it you see? And you have to pay them board. [LAUGHTER] They wouldn't let us pay our board you see, used to ha used to have twenty five bob spending money then. And w [speaker003:] Did they try to victimize you in any other way?... [speaker002:] Well er n no, not necessarily, I mean that was the worst way they could have victimize you by er making things damn awkward. that was the top and bottom of it, but er the er, the worst jobs we used to have you know, was digging dead 'uns out and Actually I remember seeing one chap, he got his leg in a coal cutter and got his his foot cut off. U and of course the There were things that er y you got used to, you see? And we just pulled his Shove a bit of bind back of his leg, tied it up together, stopped the bleeding, shoved him out. Now I remember another chap [cough], he got done with a pothole. That were of piece of bind that come out and it was shaped like a pear, 'bout a ton in weight, easy. And er that poor devil i i it hit him and I know wen we got him out, one eye was about an inch lower than the other. It'd split his skull. [LAUGHTER] He died on the way down while we were carrying him to pit bottom. Where that was er... But er I remember I er I broke a collar bone while we were down the pit, down there. And er we were coming out of We were getting the tub out an and er me brother was at the front end of th It went off the rails and er as he pushed it back, I was at the back and it jammed me again the face, and broke this collar bone. About twelve o'clock. But you weren't allowed to come out the pit, I mean you had to wait until knocking off time you see, before you were come out, Anything like that I mean er unless you've got broken legs or anything like that. So I had to s stop in the gate and mark tubs for two. And then I had about a a a two mile walk to pit bottom, you see. And this thing was just dragging me down you see? And then when you got home er had me dinner you see? But you couldn't go to the doctor's until surgery time, that were six o'clock you see. So off I went to the doctor's, six o'clock, and he examined me shoulder. Aye it's broke broke there, just there. spot. He says er And he lifted me hand up, here and bound it tight and bandaged across it. He says, Now, when it gets slack, tighten the bandage up, you see? And come and see me again in a month. That was the therapy, that was what we got. And I saw him in a month, and he took the bandage off and me arm flopped of course. Aye we'll see you in a fortnight and you'll be ready for work. I said, Well what do I do with the arm, like? With this? Had well he said, Just get on with it and keep pushing it up the wall, just keep pushing it up the wall, just come back. That was the doctoring that we had for a broken collar bone you see? I mean nowadays you'd have a Thomas splint on it you see? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] So [speaker002:] I remember the the spanish flu, this was the kind of doctoring we get if you don't mind this little These little incidents? When the spanish flu was on they were dying like flies. And they used to let us come out of the pit at three quarter time, there were six of us, all of a size, strong as young bulls and er [LAUGHTER] we used to have to i if the body was within less than a mile from the church, you see? You weren't allowed to have a hearse, you had to carry them to the church, and er er we used to b bury them by lamp light. We were allowed to come out a at er twelve o'clock you see? And we got payed seven and sixpence for each body we carried, you see? That was something to make up the quarter of your shift. And er I remember going to the doctor's with me Mother and where as we sat in the surgery which was packed, eventually the old doctor come out of the door old. He says, There, he says, You can all go home and die now, all I've got left is Epsom Salts. [LAUGHTER] Oh [speaker003:] And so what did you do? [speaker002:] We had to go home. [LAUGHTER] We didn't die though, erm [speaker003:] Did you have some sort of treatment at home? Did you have some sort of recipes? Home-made reci [speaker002:] Oh erm my moth mother had it, she got but she got better with it. But er er er this this old doctor, I remember the wife, she had an ectopic that was er a er conception in the fallopian tube, you see? And er the chap that tended her was er a locum, he were only a young chap, and er he says, Oh oh I'm sorry, he says, I'd better get me old man to come, he said I don't suppose I'll ever see another of these in my career. [cough] He got the old man to come, old the same old bugger. And er he went up and examined the wife and he come down stairs and he said to me [mimicking] Are you the husband? []. [pompous tone] That's how he used to talk. Er yes that's me doctor. Well he says, I might as well tell you, he said. Your wife could go out like the snuff of a candle. and he went. [LAUGHTER] Er the young chap then came down stairs and He's says, I'm having dinner with er I forget what the surgeon's name was now, he says er, I'll have a word with him about it. He says Come down to the surgery in the morning. And I went down and he gave me a letter, he says Take your wife in to the general hospital with this letter. Took her in the next day. And waited for her and brought her home again. And he removed it. Mm. [speaker003:] So [speaker002:] But that was the doctoring that we had in those days. [speaker003:] With all this er trauma, did you have er Wh what did you do with your leisure time, what did you do with your free time out side of the outside the pit? Did you play football? [speaker002:] Oh yes er oh yes er. Er er always played football or tennis and I I played all sports that I could get hold of. Cricket and er yes I er Matter of fact I was selected to play for Notts once, er er a one Thursday afternoon. And er, when I went to me I found out it in the post It was in the post, that I was picked. [cough] So I went down to see the secretary who I found out was in the flying horse and er told him who I was, Ooh yes, ooh yes, you're playing this afternoon, aren't you? Yes I Oh yes I remember now. I says, it all depends, How much er do we get like? Cos I was on the afternoon shift and as I told you I was getting twenty five bob a day. [cough] Ooh he says we can only pay you your travelling expenses. Oh, I says, that's four pence, tram fair. I said I'm sorry but you'd better pick somebody else. [LAUGHTER] I'd rather have the twenty five bob. [LAUGHTER] But er sport played a big part in our lives, you see er then. Because we'd nothing else to do, I mean really. Er you see the the wireless that we'd got was the old cats whisker on a crystal, you see, and a pair of earphones that we used to And if anybody rustled a paper [groan], you see? [cough] So th the pictures, you could go to the pictures, but er Pearl Light and the Clutching Hand and and M Mary Pickford and [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] How much was it to go to the pictures? [speaker002:] Well i it all depended the er When you'res a school er at school you see? It used to be a ha'penny on the front row, you see? And a penny for the back. And the first three rows used to be a ha'penny and the the others used to be a penny. see better, you was looking up it on the front rows you see. But er... yeah. And I remember the first talkie I ever heard, I walked in the elite one night, with the wife and er as we walked in we hear a chap says [mimicking] I'm I am []. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That were the first words I ever heard on [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and that week, Al Jolson was on the hippodrome with Sonny Boy. They were the first er talkies that came to Nottingham, they were. [speaker003:] Now you're you're telling us that you left the pit and you bought a lorry so could [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] you move on about what you did then as your next [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] job? [speaker002:] Well. We bought this ton lorry. Morris tonner from Cripps and er I said I'd buy the lorry off 'em if they'd find me some work. So they sent me to Morbry's Lane Wharf, Colliery Wharf. And er it was the time as they were there were popularizing a a scheme From mine to your cellar, M I N E, mine to your cellar, you see? Which meant that we had to cart this coal from the wharf, take it to the client and put it in his coal house, you see? Otherwise he used to just shoot it up, you see? But we had to go and take it into his culler I had one day at that, I thought I thought I'd had enough coal. So I went and saw a building contractor, friend of me Dads and er he welcomed me with open arms, he'd just got a contract for building council houses down Dunson Street at Netherfield. And er I got going with that, carting bricks and timber and all that sort of thing for him, got really going and er fetching ballast from train concrete. And er within eighteen months I'd got three lorries running. [speaker003:] How much were you earning? [speaker002:] Well the earnings of course went into the business we'd er There was Dad, he'd retired then out of the pits, early. He'd retired at fifty five, to run this er small holding we'd got you see? And help with the lorry business [cough] and er I used to get three pound a week out of it. And er Camel Lairds I er cleared a lot of stuff from Camel Lairds. Terrific lot of stuff from there. Paint, red paint that they used to paint railway wa er railway carriages. They used to make railway carriages down there, you know, then? [speaker003:] Where about's is that? [speaker002:] Camel Lairds on n Kings Weather Road erm It's the government, R O F, there. They took it over. It were eleven acres there under one roof. And er I know I cleared a lot of er fire bricks. There was a range of er forges and I I car i o Everything had to be cleared for when Camel Lairds finished with it. And I cart a lot of these bricks, fire bricks, up to this land that we've got and er This was in nineteen thirty seven. Nineteen thirty seven. And I I built er a bungalow for the old folks, all all interior were fire bricks. [LAUGHTER] The outside was of course was facing bricks but er [speaker003:] How did you manage to do that then? [speaker002:] Well I [LAUGHTER] I was a collier. [LAUGHTER] You did anything when you was a collier, you see? And I'd been to As I tell you, I'd been to night school, joinery classes. I'd tiled it, the er Oh it er Yeah. I did all this work, I took that out the door, out of there and built all this and built me garage and You see? You can do anything if you try you know. If you try hard enough. [speaker003:] Mm. How long we [speaker002:] And then after about eighteen months er Sterk came along with the Road Traffic Act, you see? And you had to have licences for your lorry then. A B and C licences and er it got so complicated that er I er eventually drafted in by virtue of er being able to sell firewood, er drafted into the C I S, the Co-op insurance. In nineteen thirty two. May nineteen thirty two. [speaker003:] And how did you come to get that job? [speaker002:] Well my brothers was er He was er an agent for them and er i in the country area, Burton Joyce, Lowdham and all round there. [cough] And er and er he got to take his boss down to er Burton Joyce Lowdham sorry, Lowdham, one afternoon on a case, case. Would I take him in the lorry? yes I can do that for you. So I took them in the lorry. And while I was waiting for them I I went into a little shop and For some cigarettes, and er me brother y Oh younger brother, we'd started him up er f he was a plumber. And more y o out of work than in them days. And we'd started him up with a little donkey engine and a saw bench, started him up making bundles of firewood up. [cough] And er so while I was in this shop I I sold this chap five hundred bundles of fire wood you see? And i thought, right, I think I've just about got time to nip home and fetch that fire wood and pick them up when they you see? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Low and behold when I got back they were waiting for me you see? And I apologized for what I'd done, sold the firewood, took 'em home again. And er about a month later, this chap sent for me. Er he wanted to er see me, his brother had got promoted and was Half of his book was come vacant, would I have half the book? He says er an er a while after he said to he he said, Did you ever know how you got on here, at agency? No and I certainly would. [cough] He said, Well I thought to me self well the bloke that's co just walk in the shop and sell five hundred bundles of fire wood, he could sell insurance. [LAUGHTER] Oh. [speaker003:] And what what wages did you get for that then? [speaker002:] The first We didn't get any wages. [speaker003:] Or commis [speaker002:] It was all commission you see? Never worked for wages in me life, after I was sixteen. But er me first week's commission were two pound twelve and sixpence. And I'd got ten and four pence more we used to pay twelve and fourpence monies I had to borrow to buy the book. A wife and a new baby, so er you had to work. [LAUGHTER] In [speaker003:] And [speaker002:] other words I had to get on my bike. [LAUGHTER] I'm sorry Mr but [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] We well [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Ah [speaker003:] Wha what sort of er things did you have to do then? [speaker002:] Well I used to cycle from Gedling to Apsley, me debit was at Apsley and I used to have to cycle from there to Apsley and I used to take bit of food an and bread and cheese and pieces of anything I could pick up in me pocket, and I daren't come home till I'd got some business. Use to have to get a new business canvassing. We used to get help from the Co-ops because they used to give us lists of new members and we used to be able to canvass those. But er within two years I'd doubled me book and I was averaging over five pound a week, then. [speaker003:] What kind of hours did you work the [speaker002:] Ooh Aye well Ha. You didn't consider that. You didn't consider that, you er i As I say you'd go out in the morning. If you had a good day you'd probably come home for your tea, you see? Otherwise you'd be out more or less into the night because you got to go and see the men at night you see? And you imagine in the nineteen thirties, selling insurance. It was hell selling insurance then. I mean i i if you could get in for a penny a week that was alright because when things got better you could build on a penny a week, you see? If you was greedy and went for a shilling you lost it after a week or two you see? But er [cough] [speaker003:] And were you involved in a trade union at all? [speaker002:] Oh yes, oh yes. It er We had to be it was a closed shop, that was, and er I er I was the er I was the secretary for er for our Chairman rather for ou our er local local branch, for the Nottingham area branch of er USDOR you see? We [speaker003:] And how did you come to be that? [speaker002:] Oh I I was elected [speaker003:] u [speaker002:] I could talk. [LAUGHTER] I'd had I'd had schooling you see? From the old man, you see he'd always been an old I L P man and er I remember when Harris put up for parliament in the Rushcliffe division. He er he was strong enough man to put fifty pound down for his deposit, towards his deposit of a hundred and fifty you know? And er they reckoned he were mad but er he got it back. Aye so of course As I say er i i we were more or less grew up with it. It er it grew into it. And then when I got promotion I got promoted to dif district inspector. [cough] Then we had to change the Unions to Newsize [cough] and er I er I became National President of the Newsize er district inspectors branch of Newsize Yes I was president till I retired. [cough] [speaker003:] And did you e ever remember having any trouble? Any industrial trouble? [speaker002:] Er no, not Never had any industrial trouble while I was in. I I I'll never forget I er I used to try er You see we used to have three sets of commissions. Twenty five percent, fifteen percent and ten percent, you see? Well the twenty five percent was whole life business and fifteen percent was a commission er a term endowment and the ten percent was endowment, you see? But the the results for the ten percent were were better than is had nothing for me. I think it's next door The te er the fifteen percent was less than the ten percent, you see? Less er less for the c for the customer. [cough] Well up in Scotland the main er er er was twenty five percent. I mean the Scottish boys I mean they always wanted the big end of the stick you see? They didn't believe in selling endowments, they only sold whole life you see? A lot of them did. Anyway at one of the branch meed Er E C exi er executive meetings. I I I er put forward the idea that twenty five percent was dying out, this. Can switched off a second? Anyway You see the trouble was that the twenty five percent business was falling, falling fast. People were getting educated to endowment assurance you see. So I I I start to put it across to the to the Why not try and negotiated one commission, fifteen percent, you see? Cut your ten percent out, cut your twenty five percent out and accept ten Fifteen percent you see? We used to have three lots of entries in our collecting books you see? I said, it'll cut all that out, chief office'll welcome you because it'll save such a lot of But er the Scottish boys, Oh no, oh no he'd never accept that, you see? I said, Well the men with the bigger books of twenty five percent, we could compensate them, you see? But er no they wouldn't wear it. Consequently Eventually the twenty five percent went all together. And they'd still got a majority of ten percent, you see the fifteen percent went as well, you see? They accept the deal,? [speaker003:] Now [speaker002:] Another thing er While on union business er I used to go up on negotiations, you see? And er I er I went up on negotiations, we used to get a small a small basic wage you see? And erm I I w we went up on er To try and get the basic wage increased [cough] and er I know Mr he was the er general manager at the time. I er I tried to tell him He he tried to point out to me, he says, That er the average earnings you see of district inspectors you see? Was I think he said it were about twenty six pound a week for that time you see? But you know Mr I I don't believe in these average earnings, average business, Oh yes there is correctness the accountants will vouch for it you see? Yeah but I I'm not talking about th being correct I said. I said, You see the point is that the temperature the temperature at the north pole is a lot lower than it is in th on the equator I said. But you can't con you can't persuade those chaps at the north pole that they never get any frost you know, you see? Course the average temperature is no degrees centigrade you see. So they don't get any frost on your argument. I said the same I can't persuade our chaps on the Yorkshire Moors that they are getting twenty six pound a week, when they're not, you see? But according to you they are, you see? That's why I say let's have an increase in basic wage [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you see? I'm saying this today. Instead of talking about an average twelve percent or thirty percent, you see? Go for a basic. [speaker003:] Now erm let's come on to er the last war and er I'd like to know what what you did as part of your war effort. [speaker002:] Well I was in the insurance then, of course, you see? And er I was too o old for call-up at the beginning of the war, well we had a car so er we were asked, anyone that had a car to volunteer for er A R P services you see? So erm the first week of the er of hostilities I I went and volunteered to for the A R P. [tape change]

[speaker001:] two, as an apprentice to waggon repairing. Now this er of course was railway waggons and er when you started work [cough] you was put with a skilled man and i er it was his job to repair the waggons and teach you at the same time. Now the first job he did was to get you well acquainted with the tools, which we had quite a number of them. Er spanners, and such like, and also woodcutting tools. You was expected to er to get to know these and also you was to taught to er sharpen the wood tools. Such as saws, chisels, and so forth. And er cold chisels, you had to keep those sharp, and er use a hammer and er [cough] watch as you didn't hit your fingers and knuckles. Now, after that, you was er taught all the parts of the waggons, and er this took quite a long while because we didn't know anything about them, and er where they all went and the parts they went. And then, after that, you was taught, er about six month, you was taught then er to measure the timbers up and also er start to er er mark the the er timbers out. Because everything was handmade, er all the holes in the er timbers, they had to be carefully er marked out so that y er when they went to the wood machines there was a er they would be bored in the right place, and the right size of holes. Which was ranged from half inch, to two inches, and then of course the mortices, and tenons, they had to be marked out. And then we had to cut those out, by hands hand, that er of course entailed quite a lot of work er for er for the mortices to be cleaned out, and the tenons to be cut by hand, so that they fit in the proper places. [speaker002:] Those were joints were they? Mortices? [speaker003:] They were join Mortice [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] and tenon's a joint. Er now after about two years, er you got more proficient and then, of course, you could also help with the stripping down of the waggons. The frame was er one section, and the body work was er er the top, of course. Er but the framework, that was all made from English oak. It ranged from er about eighteen foot long, sixteen to eighteen foot long, er twelve inches wide and five inches thick, and we was taught how to be able to handle these by balance. They the frame was er constructed on on er two trestles and, of course, er you put your trestles so that you could balance it, so that it wasn't so heavy to lift. And er, then of course, when you got the frame er right,y you put it together, by using cramps and rods, and such like. And then, of course, when you'd got that completed or or the er bad parts pu taken out and the new ones put in, of course then you put the floor down, which was er er s er seven by two and half timber, that was teal. And er, then of course, then you came along to the er to the bodywork, which was er two and a half timber teal, or p even pitched pine. But y you'd got to watch, there again, that er you didn't exceed the width of er of your waggon, which it's maximum limit was er would be er eight foot three, or er eleven foot six, high. So er, you see, you'd got to really watch what you was doing all the while. Now at this stage I'll er I'll go to the er to the wages. Er when I first started, my er wages, a first week's wage was er,e eleven and sixpence. That is the old currency. And er the firm payed me er four shilling, a week, and er the man I was working with, he he, the rest of it was taken out of his er his er wage packet er and put into mine, and so I got about eleven and sixpence a week. Er and er that went up, the firm's pay, er by sixpence a year. Sixpence a week, per year, see? Er in other words, er when I was fifteen I got sixpence a week extra and a little more from the man I worked with. And er that went, of course, on for a year. And er then, of course, when I was about eighteen, er I became what is what be what was called as an improver. Then I would be able to take lighter jobs on my own, what we'd call er light repairs. And, of course, I gradually built up then to until I got the er the main overall jobs, and er w by the time I was twenty one, of course, I was considered a full waggon repairer. Ha. [speaker002:] So when you? Twenty one was when you finished your apprenticeship, [speaker003:] Yes, that's right. [speaker002:] did you carry on working at the same place? [speaker003:] Yes, I c I was fortunate to be able to carry on at the same place. [speaker002:] And where was that? [speaker003:] That was at er m er at Tottan Sidings it was a private firm, but er they repaired th their own er their own stock of waggons. [speaker002:] And did your wage go up a lot when you'd finished your apprenticeship? [speaker003:] Er yes,wh yes, I came on full rate then. It was piece work, and I earned I er The firm payed me as a retaining fee, ten shillings a week, and then was what I earned, you see? Each item, on the waggon, had a price on it. [speaker002:] Ah, I see. [speaker003:] You see? Er for putting in er one floor plank in, as an illustration, we got er a penny, three farthings for it. But, you see, if you'd forty of those, which would be about the your maximum, you got er forty penny, three farthings. And so on. [speaker002:] How long would it take to build a whole waggon? [speaker003:] Well,w I wasn't repairing them, but er I wasn't building, but to overhaul er a waggon er it would probably take you, probably a week. But if it was a light repair job it would be a day. You see, it was all hand done, you see? F er your bodywork was er it was cut off You measured and cut it off with your er at the at the mill, and er, of course, then when it got to the er you cut it You know, when you got it to the er your waggon, you put it in and, of course, then you'd got to bore all the holes by hand for the bolts to go in, to fit in. [speaker002:] So everything was done by hand, in fact? [speaker003:] Everything was done by hand. You had to buy your own tools, as well. [speaker002:] When did you buy those? At the beginning of your apprenticeship? [speaker003:] No, at the end. When you'd got a little bit more money. [LAUGHTER]. Of course, we had to have good quality tools, we had er er now, we had Spear and Jackson saws, always, because they was the best quality. And, Ridgeways, we had a special bits, what we called a fast bit, for er for the er o the bodywork an and instead of having the the pointed er er er cutters on, it was the flat cutters, you see, they was a bit faster. And then, if we had to bore er through the oak er we had w er twelve inch bits, and they was very slow,m er er and we a also had er a special er brace with them, a fourteen inch sweep brace. Which the normal one was er er,w I think it's a five inch brace for the er er it's five inch sweeper, in other words it's er about Is it six inches? Twelve inch sweep for the er with the brace, they had normally. [speaker002:] Were there any other special tools that you had to have? [speaker003:] Er yes, we had to have cramps and er they was they was also provided, you see? And er we had to have er for the spr er for springs the er the buffers er we had to have a er a tool then to put the pressure on on to the buffer springs. That was provided, you see? Now er the er the draw gear, it's not just er er a coupling and a draw bar, it connects up with the er the buffer spring, which also er serves for the buffers as you know them, on the outside. Well then there was a bar went right through, well half way through, and then i it a cradle fitted on, and then there was er a coil spring fitted in there and er a set of rubbers. And then same the other end, and so it went right through that waggon, and your coupling took the strain for the next waggon and so on and so on until you'd got the complete train fitted up. [speaker002:] I see. Erm was the place that you were working at very big, then? How many people worked there? [speaker003:] Er yeah, well, no. It wasn't really big, there was about thirty of us, about a dozen er waggon repairers and er and er a apprentices. And of course then you'd got the er you'd got the mill, er and then, of course, the blacksmith's shop. You see, all the iron work, as you took it off, it had to be straightened out, and if it was broken it had to be rewelded. There was no spot welding in those days, it all had to be forge weld welded. [speaker002:] Mhm. I see. So quite a long job, [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] in fact. And were you in a union of any sort? [speaker003:] Er l After I finished my apprenticeship I was in a union. [speaker002:] Which union was that? [speaker003:] Er Transport and General Workers Union, and, of course, then we was taken o b over by the A E U, Amalgamated Engineering Union, when we we changed course, and we all became A E U members. [speaker002:] I see. Erm you say you started work in nineteen twenty two, so, [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] you would have been working when the General Strike was on, [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] do you remember anything about that? [speaker003:] Yes. I I was er I was out of work then, for er four month, during the er er nineteen twenty six strike. Er of course, I was an apprentice then, again. Er what would I be? Er I wasn't eighteen, and er I got er seven and six a week, dole money, that's in the old cunner currency, which would make er, let's see, er g twelve and twelve and five, about twelve shilling a week. Something like that. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] And er we had to walk to Long Eaton three times and week, which would be, from here, would be two and a half mile away, and then we'd we er on the Friday It was Mondays, Wednesdays and and Fridays, and we got paid on the Friday. And you was given a time to go in to sign on. We had to sign on er three times a week. We was er given a time to go and er it was anything after nine o'clock, in the morning. [speaker002:] I see. And then you got You had to go three times a week? [speaker003:] Three times a week, then, yes. [speaker002:] Why was that, then? [speaker003:] Well, it was starvation years, actually. [speaker002:] Can you remember what it was like managing on that amount of money? [speaker003:] Well, we didn't. [speaker002:] Were you living at home, then? [speaker003:] I was living at home. How my mother er managed we don'we'd never know. It was [speaker002:] Did you? [speaker003:] hand to mouth. [speaker002:] Yeah. You gave all the money to your mother, then, did you? [speaker003:] Yes. Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. But you remember it as being [speaker003:] Y yes. [speaker002:] a difficult time? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And you were out of w work for four months then? [speaker003:] A yes. [speaker002:] Were you out of work any other time during your working [speaker003:] No. No. No. [speaker002:] life? [speaker003:] I was on er What happened after that er when we was er, winter time in particular, er we was short of work, er you see, er Well er the the waggons didn't get er damaged so much because they was er they was extensively but er they was all they was weathered, you see? And it swelled the timbers up. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Well of course then you get a hot summer and it er it er revealed the cracks and the breaks, see? Now er when we'd done a waggon er it wasn't just er right, that's alright, er we had a railway examiner come along and er he'd go round it and if there was anything as he was wasn't satisfied with, or any other further repairs,he he'd stop that waggon from going out, and er of course we had to go r go back and do it. Of course we got paid for that as well. Well then every three years all the wagg at the end, er they had to have an M O T. In other words, it was called general repairs. Now when it had had a general repair on it, there was a little plate put on it and er then i it w it was supposed to go out again for three years. Now er all the waggons they had a registration plate on. That's surprised you, hasn't it? [speaker002:] Like [speaker003:] Y [speaker002:] a car? [speaker003:] Right, like a car, only it was a cast plate, and it was er, on this plate was er er who it was registered by, what railway company it was registered by, er it's er load capacity, we used to have ten and twelve ton, and er it's registration number.... Ah, now, that's it. And er, of course, er there was one either side of the waggon. And from there, oh y these waggons were oh, nothing to be one forty year old. [speaker002:] Really? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's a good age, isn't it? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm. Erm how long did you actually work at this same place for? [speaker003:] Oh, about thirty year. [speaker002:] As long as that? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] So what happened during the second world war? [speaker003:] I was still there, I was in er it was classed as a reserved occupation, so I didn't have to go to to the war. But with the same rule, I wasn't allowed to leave, I couldn't leave. See? [speaker002:] What? What does reserved occupation mean? [speaker003:] Er it means er you was er working er now You was a reserved occupation because i it was of great importance. That's near as I can tell you about it now, it has a special name I know, but er, that's it. Y your er you was er er now. That's it,yo you was er... reserved because you was more important to be on your job than er go to the war. [speaker002:] I see. [speaker003:] But what happened er You didn't quite get off, quite free, I was detailed to join the Home Guard. [speaker002:] Ah. Can you tell me about that? [speaker003:] Yes. Er I think I had two years in the Home Guard. Er we had to go to er do manoeuvres er every Sunday, see? When we weren't working. And er we used to go into er Bramcote Park and er manoeuvre er left flanking movements, and right flanking movements, and drill, and er [sniff] and then, of course, and then, occasionally, we'd have a mock battle. And I was learnt to er go into a quarry and er fire the er rifles, then we had bayonet practice. And er, then, we was all sorted out, this was the staple for the Home Guard, we was sorted out er to go to er er man the guns at Sutton-on-Sea, the er girder rockets. And er I was er one that was sorted out to go, but they wouldn't let me go because er I couldn't get b they couldn't get me back to work for seven o'clock on Monday morning. That was a weekend do, you see? [speaker002:] So you weren't allowed to go along? [speaker003:] No, I wasn't allowed to go with. So I had to stay back in er in Stapleford, the Stapleford Home Guard. Mind you, it was er it wa wasn't er really dangerous because, of course, they, as you know, the the Germans never came. [speaker002:] So you never really had to use any of [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] the skills that you'd learnt? [speaker003:] We had all the equipment, gas masks and er and and gnats and all that. Rifles, and bayonets,, but the bayonets and rifles were kep at the drill hall at Stapleford. [speaker002:] I see. Erm working at the same place for so many years you must have had? Do you remember any of your work mates in particular? [speaker003:] Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Er er I'm afraid they're about all passed on, now. [speaker002:] Really. [speaker003:] You know, I'm very friendly with one of those that are, but er, we lost one this last year, I was really friendly with him. There's one big friend now, he he comes up about, oh most weeks, we come and have a natter and er and one thing or another. [speaker002:] Can you remember any any funny stories or anything, from work? [speaker003:] No, no, I don't know as I can. Er you see, we was er we was kept busy, you see, all the while. Er of course, it was rather dangerous work, really, because it was stuff we was dealing with. [speaker002:] Was anybody ever injured then, that you can [speaker003:] Oh, yes we were [speaker002:] remember? [speaker003:] Yes, there was one or two had er w er there was one or two got ruptured and er and one or two had broken fingers and such like. Sprained wrists and such like. [speaker002:] Did anything ever happen to you? [speaker003:] No, nothing happened to me. [speaker002:] What about those that were injured, did they get any kind of compensation? [speaker003:] Er yes, they got compensation, but not lump sums. [speaker002:] So what would happen? It was paid out gradually? [speaker003:] Weekly. [speaker002:] Weekly? [speaker003:] Yes, you got a weekly compensation. [speaker002:] I see. [speaker003:] Now er [cough] when er I was er eighteen I had to do pay er National Health and er it was abo er about a shilling a week and [speaker002:] And that was insur health insurance? [speaker003:] National Health Insurance, yes. And er of course, when I er I became twenty one, the National Health Insurance was er now went up to one and tenpence. Now er that, if I was off sick, I could go to the Doctor and er I got, as a single man, I got er a pound a week from the National Health. And of course, when I was eighteen, I think it was about er seven and six a week. [speaker002:] That was i instead of your wages? [speaker003:] Instead of my wages. [speaker002:] I see. So? [speaker003:] And er [sniff] but a man a married man, it was twenty two shilling a week, you see? An but the National Health for his er, he got medical treatment for himself, but there's nothing for his family, or his children, they had to pay the Doctor. [speaker002:] Was medical treatment very expensive, then? [speaker003:] Er yes, and no. Er the Doctor provided the medicine and if he visited you it was seven and sixpence each visit, and if you went to his surgery, I think it was four an either four and six, or three and six. That's what it was. [speaker002:] Mm. Did you notice the difference in how far your earnings went when you go got married? [speaker003:] Er oh yes, I got married in nineteen thirty five and er my er take-home pay then was would be round about three pound a week, which was a good wage, in those days. You see, my day rate, then, [cough] of course I was piece work, but my day rate then would be er er two pound twelve and six pence. Less, one and tenpence. [speaker002:] And how did you find you managed, you and your wife, managed on that amount? [speaker003:] Oh we managed very nicely. [speaker002:] Was she working? [speaker003:] No. No. Er now, I don't know whether you'll put this in your [sniff] in your er talk, but er in Stapleford, if you er when you married, the girl got married er she got the good wishes of the er boss she worked with, in most of the industries, I'm not saying all. Most of the industries, and w er the day she got married, she got her cards. She was no w no no question, she ha it was one of the laws of your firm. Now, as soon as you got married, they did not employ married women. I mean I can mention the firms, there were several of them in Stapleford, because I know two, but er perhaps as well not to. [sniff] [speaker002:] So in fact, you were supporting both of you? On what you earned? [speaker003:] Well erm my wife, as er as a tailoress, she could go to work, but she didn't. We manage we did manage, well w we managed, and we was able to g have our week's holiday a year. Three pound a week was considered a good wage. [speaker002:] So did you [speaker003:] A [speaker002:] save out of your weekly earnings to go on holiday? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] How did you save? [speaker003:] Well er I think we put ours in the bank, actually. [speaker002:] In the bank? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] Y you put so much? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] away a week? [speaker003:] Oh we didn't er, any surplus went in the bank. Of course, er the er the hotels and such like, they weren't as expensive as they are today. You could get er a r a decent er er hotel or boarding house. The cheaper boarding houses was er would er be er four and sixpence a day, full board. And the dearer ones would be about six shilling, a week, full board. [speaker002:] So how much would a week's holiday for two cost you? [speaker003:] Oh, round about twenty pound. [speaker002:] And when? About what year would that be? [speaker003:] Er nineteen thirty five. [speaker002:] Twenty pounds for a week's holiday? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's pretty good. [speaker003:] Ti till nineteen, till nineteen forty, till the war broke out. Of course, then,ho holidays was all off. See, er now, coming to that, holidays, er you only had a week's holiday, with no pay. There was a er And then you had bank holidays, with no pay. You had er two days at Christmas, Boxing day and Christmas day, er no pay. Er Easter, we had er Good Friday and Monday, no pay. Whitsuntide, er er one day, with no pay. Er August bank holiday, August bank holiday Monday, first Monday in the month, no pay. If you had a week's holiday [cough], still no pay. [sniff]. They were the starvation years. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right.... Okay Mrs erm, can you tell me how old you were when you started your first job? [speaker002:] Er fourteen. [speaker003:] And what was that doing? [speaker002:] Er tailoring, at a tailor's shop in Stapleford. [speaker003:] In Stapleford? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And what was that like? [speaker002:] Well,i it wasn't too bad at all, they the tailor's shop actually, it was er a tailor and his wife, who had built up a business over the years, in Stapleford, and it was very well patronized by Stapleford people. But, at fourteen, my job was to er I had to fetch the coal and the sticks, to light the er stove that held the irons, and er they they were er d I I Like I had to go to the coalhouse which was down fourteen steps, the steps were wooden ones, outside the upper floor, where we worked. And so I had to drag the coal scuttle up there, I was faced with that, and chop the sticks, which I'd never done before. And so that, it made me a tougher than I should have been. And also the irons were twenty two pound, they were long, flat arrangements, called goose irons. And er the all day that stove had to be kept, in summer and winter, because there was no other means of heating the irons. And a bath was kept, a zinc bath, at the side of the stove and the tailors, there were two tailors, and four other pe machinists, girls an and women like. And erm erm the tailors would come when they wanted to do any pressing of seams, or anything, and they would take the goose iron, and put it in on of the, what we call press cloths, that we pressed the And then they would douse it in the bucket of water, to get it the right heat, to start, so a cloud of steam went up. The tailors sat cross-legged, on benches, and er the machinists, there were four machines on one big bench,th they went from one belt. And in the other room, there were two rooms, and the other room had a buttonhole machine, which was quite modern in those days, not many firms had a buttonhole machine. And I was there until I was about eighteen. I wasn't a bound apprentice, as such, I didn't have to er it meant that I didn't have to stay with them. Er they wouldn't have you as a bound apprentice because unfortunately, although the wages were so low when you was being an apprentice, three and six a year, then six and six year, and then er I think, thirteen shilling, the third year. Now that was a year, but, er because you wasn't a bound apprentice, when trade fell off in the winter, and it fell off drastically in the winter, and then built up for Easter, when everyone in those days bought new clothes. Er it erm er the result was that you was really working flat out all the summer, and then as the winter advanced, you got very short of work, and they put us on the dole, for half a week. We worked a wee half a week and were on the dole, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday we'd be on the dole, then work Thursday, Friday and Saturday morning. Well, we should have knocked off work at about twelve on the Saturday, and instead of that, being a shop, they were taking orders and we had to do all the alterations as they came in, and bought the clothes. And the result was we were often working till half past three without any lunch at all. And we used to get very worked up about it, and then we went down to fetch our wages, and the older ones were always going to complain, but this erm tt er son of the people, he used to look at the factory clock opposite, and it would be half past three, and he'd said, Right, I'll pay you till three o'clock, and we'll make it right next week. Next week came, [LAUGHTER] and we never got that half hour, so it must have added up a lot, all throughout the year. And er [] we bore great resentment about this, that was the only thing, that I can honestly say, we bore any resentment about. [speaker003:] Mm, I can imagine. [speaker002:] Otherwise, it was er They were nice people, and it was quite nice. [speaker003:] And where did you work after that? [speaker002:] Well at about er when I was about eighteen, I erm I decided I'd had enough of this er this business of three days on the three days on, and three off, in the winter, and it was about October time and I could see another winter of it. And er also down at Long Eaton Labour Exchange, which we walked to, or went on the train for tuppence, we had to er fetch our money on Friday night. A very nice er was with the the juveniles, as t we were called, but a very terrible, she really was a terrible civil civil servant. That was for the older girls, and they frightened us to death with tales of what this Fanny-Annie, as they said called her, had er had said to them, and how rude she was, terrible. She really was, and I sort of thought, Oh, I can't go, I can't face up to going there. So er there was a job advertised in the erm, well it was the journal, in those days, and er I went after it, in Nottingham. It was er by the park, that's near Snenton Market, it has Bendigo's grave in it,I I don't quite Victoria Park, I think it is. And I ha I wasn't very familiar with Nottingham, then, but I went and erm we crossed this park, and it was at a big house, there, tailors were always in rather out of the way places, and er he'd just got fixed up. So, I was very disappointed, and on the way back to catch the bus on Parliament Street, I passed erm a shop called Jowers which was next to the Corner Pin, and er er although I was very nervous, I went in and ask if they wanted a tailoress. They were very surprised, because usually they advertised for them, but they went up and asked the tailors if they wanted anyone, and then a dear old man,a er named Mr said he like a trouser finisher. And he worked on his own on these trousers, you see? Each man then, there was about, there'd be about four or five men there, all had a number of girls working for them, and er they had to pay the wages out of what they earned. You see? They it was all piece work, there. Unlike Gillens a fixed rate for the week, it was then piece work. But our rate was fixed, the girls's rate We worked for a fixed rate. But the men had to balance it up by, what they called chits,tha that came on every garment and how much er money they were getting for it. And then, of course, had to take their own wages out, as well. Well, conditions were about the same, the goose irons, and the the floors that got cotton and all erm bits of material on, and everything. The conditions were about the same, the wor people were very, very nice. And er this erm tt As I say this old man, he he he'd didn't like coming in too soon in the morning, and er a I could see he was finding it a bit difficult to find both our wages out of his money, although I got there to time and worked. And er when the winter came, it was the same old story, everyone was short of work again. But erm, they didn't seem to go on the dole, they just seemed short of work and short of money, you see? And he told me that if I He came from out Keyworth way, and he said If you can better yourself, Dorothy, do so. So he said I I don't want to keep you, and I I could see what struggle it was for him to come a er so often in the bad weather, that er I I started the same idea. I didn't want to come back to Stapleford, so I st because they were very offended because I left. No-one had ever left Gillens before, and they were very [LAUGHTER] upset about it []. And then I erm I went to er I went to R I shall I start on the scheme, going around, to the shops, and I got a job on Long Row. And there, the tailor, he'd been trained in the war, and he he only had one la leg, and he seemed very nice, but er he told me to start on the Monday and then I got a letter. You see, that was the same system, the piece work, to say there was no trade at all. There'd been some snow, and erm er he wasn't well, and could I if I cared I could look for a work elsewhere, as i it was just impossible for him to pay wages, you see? So as the shop, you see, didn't pay the wages, they had to just pay it on the things that were done. And so then I So I was very, very disappointed and I went to a shop then called Dixon-Parkers which was a bigger shop and er a very well-known shop. And I went in there, and asked for their tailoring department and er er I found out after that I was just dead lucky, one of their trouser finishers was going to er leave, she was getting married, and she was leaving and erm although you didn't have to leave then, she she she sort of had got to leave, so er I just fell lucky, there. And this Mr was so taken aback, by me going in and asking for a job, and they'd always advertised in the paper before, that he said, Well, she must want work if she's gone after it. And er if I could do the job, I could have it. So I started there and they put me on a month's trial and I dithered about about this month, whether I was good enough, and they'd forgotten all about it, by the end of month, [LAUGHTER] trial []. And er that too was at the top of the building, and that was in, oh a series, of little rooms, although the shop was big and beautiful, down below. The higher you went, the less beautiful it got. And conditions were still at just about the same, but it had been an old hotel, so all the rooms at the top were left just as the bedrooms would have been, so you went up and down steps, and along corridors. You could easily get lost, at first, until you got used to it. Or you went up the fire escape, which had fifty two steps, to go up. And you was in these top rooms with the the stoves, but erm they had gas stoves, under the irons. And er, of course,th the trouble was that i the tailoring was erm You threw all your cottons on the floor, you threw all your bits of cloth on the floor, and er you had your youngest girl sweeping it up. But nobody ever scrubbed the floors, and they were bare boards, so they got, you know, in a pretty er far worse condition than factories. But erm [speaker003:] Did they have any form of inspection, like they did in factories? [speaker002:] Erm they do have They did have factory inspectors, but they always informed them when they came, and always bought a suit, or a costume, if they were women. There were the odd women inspectors. And so, they were far too f [LAUGHTER] They got far things far too reduced in price, to have said much about it [], it was the accepted world, then. I [speaker003:] So conditions were quite bad, in fact? [speaker002:] Conditions were poor, really, in that respect. But er, it was just the thing, they thought inevitable in a tailor's workroom. Whereas er in erm a factory, I believe, they would have had to have er the rooms whitewashed, colourwashed or whitewashed at certain times, we weren't bound up with any regulations, then. You see? There was no regulations, as far a I know, we never had a thing painted or done at all, in any of the places I worked at. They were just really attic rooms, that we used. [speaker003:] Mm. How long did you work at that place for, then? [speaker002:] Ah well they put me on the top rate of pay, which was quite good, thirty five shilling a week. [speaker003:] What year would this be? [speaker002:] Ah, oh, about thirty, thirty one. tt And er it was very good, the money was, we were very busy in the summer, and we could earn overtime. The same thing applied to winter, we were very short of work, but instead of you ever being on the dole again, er you went in at ten o'clock in the morning. So er before and you had two half days a week, you'd have Thursday and Saturday, you see? T er but you you wasn't putting the hours in, so you didn't get the money. And then, you see, then the erm er the bus fare, you got as reduced rate, to go in early, so I used to go in at the usu about from the last bus I could go in cheap, and then walk to Trent Bridge, and back, it was very nice. [LAUGHTER]. But the people were grand, the people I worked with, and you could talk all the while. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] While you worked, er er conversation was good, and the people were grand people. So it made up for any other, er, you know. The only thing is, I didn't really want to be a tailoress, I wanted to be a nurse, [LAUGHTER] but hadn't much choice, then []. And having l your mother and father left er, your parents had left you with such low money in the early stages you couldn't In any case you couldn't My friend was a nurse, but you'd got to have a special background. You'd got to be someone, to be a nurse, in those days. And they had some terrible times, I can tell you. But she'd got to have her family backing, I mean er, in fact she'd got to really be middle class, at least, to [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] be a nurse then. So er I I stayed on in tailoring, and probably got on better, because they were lovely people. [speaker003:] Er when you left that tailoring job, why did you leave, in the end? [speaker002:] Er because I was ill, er well, ill. I'd got a troublesome cough developed, and now looking back through the years, er it would have been a sort of hay-feverish condition that I I have been a bit bothered with. I it's er never held me up that much, but er it obviously it affected er me throat, the erm It's the bits off the new cloth, you see? You've always got the new cloth, and er and I think the heat, in the summer, with the stoves going and everything, contributed to it. And er I got a questionable spot on the lung and had to go to the Ransom Sanatorium. Er or I wouldn't have left, I would have stayed on, I liked the people. They were marvellous to me, when I did go, there. And erm tt and then I was there twenty two weeks, as a patient, and er the then the only cure was rest and good food, and fresh air. And fresh air we got, it was all open to the weather, I once remember putting an umbrella up, because it snowed on the bed. [LAUGHTER] And we, Every morning, when we had to strip-wash in the bath [] er in the bowl-room, the frost was on the ground. It was at Ransom Sanatorium, it was beautiful round there, but very isolated. [speaker003:] And once you'd recovered, you left there, did you? [speaker002:] Well I stayed on as an orderly because they said that I could erm I could marry because er I wasn't erm classed as erm tt Er I wouldn't pass it on to me husband, so I could marry, provided I I prevented having children for er five years, that you had to see the Doctor until The medical Doctor at Nottingham, until he pronounced you clear, you see? And er so that's er I stopped on six months, being an orderly, because I couldn't go back into tailoring, obviously, because er it might have aggravated it all again. [speaker003:] But you were working as an orderly? That was before you got married, was it? [speaker002:] Yes. Six months before I got married. I stayed on as an orderly, up there. I never worked harder in me life. [LAUGHTER]. Oh, the little tt Oh the little maids, however they stuck it I shall never know. They worked from eight in the morning, till nearly eight at night, with just an hour's dinner, and half an hour's tea. And an hour off, a day. And if they didn't get up when the Night Sister switched the lights on, they were on the Matron's mat, and they lost that hour. The conditions er er y you know,i it's like a another world. And yet, they were cheerful, and good, and stuck it, didn't they, Jack? [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. Rea really marvellous, and the nurses too. It was th it was erm, a lot of the nurses were there for two years before they went to get th into the General Hospital training. They could do two years, between sixteen and eighteen, you see? A in that at that sort of a place, they could do it, and they er came over from Ireland, a lot of them, and and er did the two years. But it was so cold for them, but they did it. And so isolated, some of them ran away, and you know,i it really was. But the sisters were very devoted to it, and the Doctor, and the matrons. It's amazing, really. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] The conditions, today, to then. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yet people were happy and cheerful, and just as dedicated. They g seven seven shilling a week we g [recording ends]

[speaker001:] And could you tell me when and where you were born, please? [speaker002:] Yes, I was born in Lane at Lane on the eleventh November, nineteen seventeen. [speaker003:] And erm could you describe the house you were born in at all? [speaker002:] Yes, it was a tt a very large semi-detached house [LAUGHTER] with erm a smallholding attached. My father was a miner but loved his garden and we had a big smallholding [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] all garden, and at the bottom was a streamlet, then had trout in it. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] So did you live with your parents, in your both your parent in your early life? [speaker002:] Yes, erm, that was where I was born and er then when I was five my father erm hit a bad patch and he sold the house and er he decided to become a shoemaker in Baysford. And he and my mother had a disagreement about this and er the result was that my father became very ill and I went home to Grandma. [speaker003:] And you you lived with your grandparents then? [speaker002:] Yes, and then my father, when he had recovered a bit, he came to live with Grandma. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And we I had a brother, a younger brother, as well. [speaker003:] Mm. Were there? Did you ever get any feeling of sort of distaste from anybody about about y your mother leaving home? [speaker002:] No. No. My father was [LAUGHTER] shall we say, well respected and er no, there was no There was never any query about it. [speaker003:] Mm. So, you lived with your grandparents then. Was your grandfather a miner as well? [speaker002:] Yes, my granda this was my second grandfather because my gra my own grandfather had died, before I was born, and my grandmother had married again and he was a he was the arm-setter at Colliery. [speaker003:] Mm. And your father was a miner at this time, as well? [speaker002:] Yes. And also in the house was Uncle my grandfather 's brother, Uncle Bill, who was er a winder at Colliery. [speaker003:] Mm. So everybody was based at at, then? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Do you have many memories of well, the men in the house, coming home from the pit, and talking about the conditions? [speaker002:] M m yes, they talked about work [LAUGHTER] or work [], and erm, but not about conditions particularly, and was a medium pit for conditions. They talked about conditions at which was a wet pit, and er how Hucknall was much better, anyhow and things like that. But great talk about Union activities. [speaker003:] What were the Union activities? [speaker002:] Er well, there was the highly immoral thing called overtime, erm if you had too much overtime you was keeping someone out of job. Er you wanted a fair number of hours and you wanted a fair wage. Er the Union was very [LAUGHTER] parochial []. [speaker003:] Mm. So the men in the house were all members of Nottingham Miners Association? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] What about the General Strike? I suppose the strike would be an early [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] memory for you? [speaker002:] Yeah. The General Strike, [LAUGHTER] it's a strange memory [] because I had to walk down Pad er now, erm I forget what the proper word is now, er it's called Walk, now [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] sounds terr er terrible to me, [] because Pad was the way to Colliery, the last half mile along a dirt track. And er Granddad was on maintenance, of course, and I used to have to take his meals, so I used to go past the er picket, along with many other people who were busy coal [LAUGHTER] out of the pit tip []. Er the picket was not as militant as it is now, and there were the talks of scabs, and things like that. But the Strike was, well we had the pit ponies up, and er we always used to go and feed them, and then we went, of course, to chapel for meals. I won't say soup kitchens because they weren't that at all, I mean, they weren't as civili You had a civilized meal, I know you sang grace before it, and said grace afterwards, but you had knifes, forks and spoons and chapel china. [speaker003:] Mm. So how? Do you remember how your grandfather and father felt about the Strike? [speaker002:] Erm yes, they er, they felt they'd been let down by the Railway men, I think, or someone else at the beginning at the Strike, and they were out on a limb but er they'd got to make the best of it. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm I think they thought they'd been let down at the end of it. Erm I was taken to h hear A J, the miners leader at the time, he was the best type perhaps, a Welsh Chapel Parson, erm on the recreation ground and on the marketplace, when thousands turned up, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] attend. [speaker003:] How how did people feel about, because well if you read read Alan Alan book, then he's criticized very strongly as being too militant, and r well really Cri preferred to him. How how did the the miners? [speaker002:] Well the miners er were middle of the road, as lots of miners are now, but er probably more middle then because, well, the Colliery Chapel and the Co-op were a way of life. [speaker003:] Mm. What about? [speaker002:] , of course, was a chapel man and er I think they saw, or some of them saw him er a in him a way round, out of things, and, of course, he did deals with the collieries to get people back to work, and whilst families had enjoyed six months in the gardens and doing all sorts of strange things, erm the men mainly wanted to get back to work, because they saw time running out. [speaker003:] Mm. W was the Strike a period of hardship particularly? [speaker002:] It was hardship in this, that er, perhaps the hardest time came after it when er, well it was called public assistance then, social security payments had to be payed back. All the things that you'd had during the Strike, but things did get left, and er tradesmen were very considerate, there was no chasing for m hard for money and er I know we had an insurance that wasn't paid and we used the book to have an imaginary shilling on a horse each day. Which put me off gambling for good, because whilst we won every day, it seemed, we'd lost a lot of money at the end of the year. Theoretically we hadn't done, but, of course, we hadn't played anything, but it was good exercise. [speaker003:] Mm. Well moving onto social life, what are your childhood memories of of playing and with your your father and playmates, etc? [speaker002:] Well, of course, er f er Fathers and grandfathers er took er the youngster a walk [LAUGHTER]. Er there was walking, there was cricket and er billiards, erm street games, things you can't do now because of traffic. But a lot more, I feel sorry for my grandchildren, where they can't have as much fun as I used to have, kicking a tin. [speaker003:] Mm. Did did church figure as prominently in your early life? [speaker002:] Oh cha chapel Later on, I mean er you know when you got to ten, eleven,ch there were so many things at chapel, I mean from learned dissertations, I mean the gentlemen from the University, here. Er Prof and, used to come and talk to the Guilds and things, er the men's meeting. And er then there were the concerts or the pantomimes or the operettas. I always finished up as a bandit, or a pirate, I don't know quite why. [LAUGHTER] I couldn't sing. [] But equally they did Silas Marner and er Merchant of Venice, a good standard, too. [speaker003:] So is th is a idea of a chapel being more in the community than just religion? Is that? [speaker002:] Oh yes, it was a very much a community centre, I mean, [LAUGHTER] we played billiards at chapel, and various chapel people had billiard tables un under their dining table and er we u just go and play billiards. [speaker003:] [cough] Going back to the your mining background, erm after the Strike were were your father and grandfather members of both the Nottingham Miners Associa Association and the industrial union? [speaker002:] Erm, yes. My grandfather became involved because 's union er made a big thing out of compensation cases. Compensation had to be fought for, it wasn't a matter of right, and a piece of a very small piece of coal fell down the shaft, the onsetter's the man at the bottom, and it through his hand and he got compensation and then my father was sacked for the shovel. Too much of a coincidence, [LAUGHTER] I'm afraid, to [] our minds. [speaker003:] Do you think the two were connected, then? [speaker002:] Oh, we're sure they were but er this was the thing with a private collier company where you had er a sort of, not quite chairman, of the colliery sitting there at the top o in the office, watching everybody come and go. And er after that, my father went with the rounds with the collieries, where you had to belong to union to go to them, and Colliery didn't accept what was called the old union. [speaker003:] Yeah was? The Pit was the Colliery? [speaker002:] Pit as my n Pit was colliery, then there was, and then, of course, there were the pits and the pits, on the edge. Er but, Collieries as they became, they didn't acc That was Lancaster, they didn't accept er the old unions, so they erm they belonged Both I can't on Friday night I used to the Methodist's chapel to pay the old union subscription, and to the West to pay 's. [speaker003:] What was your father and grandfather's attitude to authority in the pit? Were they very resentful about, well, these dismissals? [speaker002:] Very resentful about that,, but er no, er I think er tt some of the pi It was Er not authority in the pits, they disliked the co-owners, erm one or two, and respected Pit always had a respectable authority er and ownership, I mean, stemming from the Quaker one. But er and the other pits where personalities were involved were not quite so [LAUGHTER] happy. But er the managers and er and the The manager of the pit and then the underviewers, and the rest, they were people who had worked their way up generally, and were accepted. [speaker003:] So had the idea of the coal owner Er well at the end of the century, the the coal ow owner and liberal MP sort of connections in? [speaker002:] Well was pit, was and er they came to the family, that was someone at Mansfield, came back to open chapel bazaars, and all sorts of things, and particularly for the adult school. [speaker003:] Yeah, going on to schools, which w which schools did you attend? [speaker002:] I went Street erm, which was just next door to Grandma's, only over the wall, [LAUGHTER]. And er then to 's Street, which was called School, for a year and then to 's, when it opened in nineteen twenty nine. [speaker003:] Do you have many memories of your, well, early education? [speaker002:] Street, yes, because er you went er you had a marvellous thing called Nature study, come geography, come everything, where you went for walk. But equally, the first thing I remember was my number in the infant school, when I was number fifty five, and er there were fifty eight of us in the class, and one lady kept order. [LAUGHTER]. They were very ordered classes [LAUGHTER] I'm afraid []. [speaker003:] Was much learnt, or? [speaker002:] Yes, oh yes, you learnt quite a lot and er much depended on er the teacher, of course, they weren't as bound as er teachers had been. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] We heard discussions of that. But erm you learnt quite a lot, and you learnt the basics very, very thoroughly. I mean, you marched round the playground until you could knew that twelve fourteens were a hundred and sixty eight. Which was when the top class in the infants, at seven, got in. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Di Was there any sort of education outside school, say, Sunday Schools, or? [speaker002:] Sunday Schools, er, mainly was er in best chapel tt tradition, I suppose, of er bible study and also of the social conscience of the Methodist. And er to me it presented a great opportunity,I I j I won quite a lot of books. [LAUGHTER] I always remember asking for Lawrence In Arabia, as a Sunday School prize. [] [LAUGHTER]. And they weren't the Victorian prizes, that I won,I we got them for getting through an exam, because you could write or something, and er tt well, they were quite good books, and it was one way of getting a book. [speaker003:] Mm. W what about Street school? [speaker002:] Street School, I was th there on only there a year, and the headmaster came in one day, he was another Liberal politician. Headmasters were always members of the council, in those days, and they were always tended to be La Liberal or Labour, which I the present Labour would say was very pale pink. And the headmaster at er Street school, Joseph, was a Labour member of council, and Joseph was tended to be more Liberal. He came in one day and asked what M C C stood for, and I've always known a lot of useless information, so I could tell him, so I was then dispatched everyday to the erm radio shop in the High Street, to get the cricket scores in Australia. And then he asked me, he said, Well, have you read that notice on the board about er scholarships? I said, Yes, but there's no hope. He says, Well, your aunt was a teacher,co you could go teaching. You're na you're not going down the pit? I said No, no-one at home was, Everyone at home had said, You're not going down the pit. And he entered me for the scholarship, [LAUGHTER], and er, I won. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I incurred his displeasure on one occasion, there was a young lady sat on the form in front, we had those, where you sat in pairs, on the iron sort of things. She had plaits, and I tied them together, on to th behind the bar, and he he caned me. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Mm. I suppose caning was a a more frequent form of discipline, in those days? [speaker002:] Caning was, er yes, erm. If you asked for trouble, you got it. [speaker003:] Would you ev would you ever get any comeback from you your father, if you got told told off at school? [speaker002:] If you got in trouble at school, you got in trouble at home. No if and buts. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] About going t about getting the Henr scholarship to, had only just opened then, [speaker002:] That [speaker003:] hadn't it? [speaker002:] It hadn't er I went when it opened. We were er before then there was the, the school just over the wall to Street, was the Centre. It was a pupil, teacher centre. It started life as a technical school, which it was given by subscription, mainly the colliery company, for scientific education. But used during the day by the Education Committee as a pupil-teacher centre. And up till then, you went to you got your scholarship, you went to the tu pupil- teacher training centre and then you became a teacher. Erm if you [LAUGHTER] passed [] [LAUGHTER], erm you did a stint and then you came to College, Nottingham for your teaching ticket. [speaker003:] So But was without a a secondary school [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] for quite a long period, wasn't it? [speaker002:] Yes. Yes, until Annie came,m after the war. [speaker003:] Was? How did the community feel about that?? [speaker002:] They felt strongly [speaker003:] ? [speaker002:] They felt strongly about it, but er was only twelve minutes away, on the railway, quarter of an hour on the bus. And of course, in spite of everything that's being said, the thing about was that because of the two railway stations you could get anywhere in half or three quarters of an hour. You could get to I know Graham went to, which [LAUGHTER] is way out, other went up the Kimberley and that area, and other went to Sutton. And everybody could get home very quickly because of the railway stations that were there. [speaker003:] So did you travel to school on the railways? [speaker002:] We tr I travelled to school on the railway one bit, when they gave us season tickets, because with a scholarship you got your fares paid. And then they started paying your bus fare, at the end of the week, and so I decided I could walk. [LAUGHTER]. Er fourpence return was two mars bars, and quite a lot of us walked. [speaker003:] Were there many boys from at? [speaker002:] Oh yes, there were Well, all the erm boys from up to about the fifth form, in the old pupil-teachers training centre went, er was formed by joining that and school, they took boys from there. [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] And er then there was the new intake of ourselves, and er there were probably fifty or sixty the first year. Erm, only three scholarship, but then of course, you got the er governors free places, which were nearly the same, and then the number who were being paid for. [speaker003:] D s So did you notice any sort of class differences within the school? [speaker002:] Very little, after the first [LAUGHTER] week []. Erm uniform's a great leveller, or a I I'd never had such marvellous clothes. Erm I know a friend of mine, and my ambition, then, was to wear a collar and tie and wear half-shoes, as opposed to a jersey and boots. Erm now, of course, we'd wear a jersey and boots quite [LAUGHTER] happily [], but er I did get a grant for clothing because otherwise there was no way of goin of accepting a scholarship. And erm the immediate reaction, at home, was to say, Well, you can't go. And the headmaster said, quietly, Let's talk about it. And er so I had clothes from, and er I learnt what clerical colo clerical grey was, [LAUGHTER] and er, also what house shoes were, erm you know, slippers for wearing in school. So tt and of course, the other thing I learnt there was that you had dinner the wrong way round, you didn't have your pudding first, to fill you up. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] So What other memories do you have of of, then? [speaker002:] Oh, very happy memories really, we erm we had two or three masters from, erm one was the Sunday School superintendent, again this chapel and the son-in-law of the headmaster of Street, George Edward,, as he's known to thousands. He must be rolling round, cos he was the maths master, he must be rolling round in his grave, as people say percentage, because he if you said percentage he yelled at you, Percentage of what? [LAUGHTER]. Erm but you'd failed him, if you didn't get a distinction in School Certificate maths, or arithmetic. [speaker003:] So h how old were you when you left school? [speaker002:] Sixteen. [speaker003:] Which was, I mean, very late for those? [speaker002:] No. No. We left er the secondary school, or as they were then, the grammar schools, at sixteen. You left the other one at fourteen. I could have stayed at Street [LAUGHTER] till I was fourteen [], I could have stayed at Street until I was fourteen, and then you would've been out. And er but at er there you'd got to go for the other two years, and some parents were rather wondering whether that left you late in the queue for a job, because jobs were very difficult. Or whether you were going to earn enough, later on. [speaker003:] Mm. How did you go about finding a job? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Wrote hundreds of letter, [] er to the people you wanted to do, because I'd never expected having to find a job, I must admit, because the year before I took School Certificate I had got a Naval a artificer apprenticeship, but then I got kicked in the eye playing rugby, and failed a medical. Something I'd never to do, so I had to settle down and get School Certificate, which I got with my matric exemption, and people from did. It er you were taught, and er I ju I'd say it was as liberal a education as you get now, but you'd got to get your maths, you'd got to English, you'd got to get a language, you'd got to get a science, and [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] it was broadly based. [speaker003:] And so what was the job found? [speaker002:] And eventually I found a job er as assistant to the er clerking to the rating officer, who had also been a member of t, who was a member of the chapel, and er knew I was looking for a job and er, I hadn't written to him cos I didn't know this one was coming up. [speaker003:] And so he told you about it, rather than? [speaker002:] Yes, he told me, he said Ah well, have you got a job yet? I said No, not yet, erm I'm awaiting replies from so many. So I accepted a job with him, and then I got two offers the next day, one with the savings bank, I think it was, and one with someone else. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] And what what payment did you get? [speaker002:] Ten shilling a week. [speaker003:] Would it have been better had you gone to the other jobs? Or would it have been about the same? [speaker002:] I don't know erm, probably about the same, then. It was about it was the same as I'd probably got if I'd have gone to the pit at fourteen. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] But er nevertheless you felt that you wanted to go into Well you were probably to over qualified for going into the pit, weren't you? [speaker002:] Never thought about the pit, I'd been There was no question about that, it was something that was not going to last. I mean, the pits would be worked out, according to the talk at home, and anyhow, we wanted to live in Dartmouth. [speaker003:] Mm. So what did you actually do in the rating office? [speaker002:] Well, I wrote out births, deaths, marriage certificates, and er then measured up houses on the rating side, erm worked them out for evaluations. Erm used to go down to weddings, at the register office on a Saturday morning, and hope that they'd turn up without witnesses, because then you had to be... compensated, [LAUGHTER], for giving your service. [speaker003:] How much would you get for? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I occasionally got ten shillings, which was more than a week's as much a week's wages. [] Erm but er I learnt to write a fair hand, erm without too many flourishes, which er because I was always told that somebody might be looking at this in a hundred years time, or more. [speaker003:] Mm. In going to measure houses, did you have to actually go out and visit houses? [speaker002:] Yes, oh aye I Yes, we You had to measure, and in those days, the councils were grouped in what they called Assessment Committee Areas, and each were wor making sure the other areas were using the same sort of basis. And I remember, one afternoon, going out with the whole of the rating committee, to houses at Eastwood and Beeston, and other places, and m in effect measuring them by counting how many nine inch bricks they were across the front and back, to make sure that, you know, nobody was subsidizing anybody else. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm and you went in houses, you saw them. You know, learnt about construction. [speaker003:] Mm. Did you see much of people's living conditions? Particularly poor living conditions,? [speaker002:] Oh you saw er you'd seen this because er you had friends all over, I mean, the fact that you went to didn't er tt get rid of all your friends. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm you had friends everywh, in all sorts of places, you didn't dally, shall we say, in some of them that might have been a bit smelly. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And others that you wouldn't have gone in anyhow, but they were areas. But generally... I saw more living conditions later on, er when er I started rent collecting for the council. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And the rating officer was part time with the council, and one day, a rent collector was taken ill, and then I was given a five shilling bag of copper and told to go and collect these [speaker003:] When? When was this? [speaker002:] Er it would be nineteen thirty seven. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] So that was [speaker002:] Thirty six? Thirty seven? Thirty seven, perhaps. [speaker003:] That was during well,th the end of the Depression, really? [speaker002:] Well it was still very depressed in the coal trade, you were they were doing this marvellous thing called three on and three off. If you worked four, you were worse off than if you worked three, you know, you'd got three days on th er and you got you got three days dole, er unemployment pay. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And er so times were still hard, it wasn't until they, let's say until thirty ei thirty eight, that the depression finished in the coal field, when they started building up from then. And of course, this was the time of the means test, when young men from who er lived at home, their income was taken into account, in assessing how much Dad or Mum couldn't get. And er they took themselves off to Coventry and to and to Luton, to the motor trades. And quite a few went. [speaker003:] What were the? What [speaker002:] What? [speaker003:] was the sewage conditions and the the water supply like in the thirties in? [speaker002:] Good. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Because there'd been arguments about it earlier on in the century, hadn't there? [speaker002:] Oh there had, had er it h erm had a marvellous water supply and it had a good sewage it had a good sewage disposal system. But erm sewage was to be one of the things I shall never forget, later on. Whilst I was working for the council, someone came to ask and we had some new o new officer appointed and he was very worried about getting ca er p permission from the council to launch a sewer scheme that was going to cost a quarter of a million pounds, a very large amount in those days. And [LAUGHTER] the older members of the staff, and there weren't many, I mean the total s council office staff was only about thi was twenty or so, and erm more men were employed outside, than anything. And they said, Well you know how to draw up your agenda, and you'll have something that's contentious, in this case it was the supply of stationery from three local stationers, from printi local printers. And they argue that half the night, and then er your thing will go through on the nod, if you get it in before t half past nine when they er standing order say the council meeting closes. [speaker003:] Mm. S so Huck Urban District Council was separate from Nottingham wasn't it? [speaker002:] Yes. Yes. Er Nottingham had about three attempts to pinch, and er the last one they were told to put their own house in order, first, because conditions were so much better than in the city. Erm mainly as a result,I I contend, that earlier on the Quaker coal owners encouraged home ownership, has this very high proportion of er owner-occupiers. Tt Er in nineteen seventy four, I think, at least about three quarters of them were []. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] There are no there were no big property owners, no big coal, I mean the colliery company only owned sixty houses, I think, which were sold to the tenants, er when the lease ran out. [speaker003:] W what about the the health service in Nottingham? [speaker002:] In? [speaker003:] Er in? Sorry. [speaker002:] Erm health service? Erm what do you mean? The Doctors? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh well you had er some very well loved Doctors, we had the black doctor, Dr, he was er West Indian, he took over from another one, Dr, who was also West Indian, I gathered, I never knew Dr. But Dr was a good cricketer, erm he also wrote a very You could also read what Dr put, and he was also said that he sent people to hospital very quickly. Erm then there was the er and he m Dr, and er Dr and then it became Dr, who is still there. Erm Dr was the medical officer of health, part time, and Dr was a character, he always had a white carnation, he rode round in a carriage on occasions, and he er wrote copperplate. That's when I had to put these things onto dea er put death certificates into [LAUGHTER] th their the doctor's certificate into [LAUGHTER] English [], erm they were pretty good,t others weren't so g, er you know, weren't so good. I have been accused, too, of saying that, You tell your Doctor, I'd know what you, I knew what you'd die of, [LAUGHTER] because they had their own things, their own pet hobbyhorses. Erm myocardio degeneration and chronic bronchitis, and erm probably quite accurate, but er short of breaking your neck I think you, bronchitis was the killer, in. [speaker003:] Mm. So yo you had to fill in births and deaths certificates? [speaker002:] Oh yes, I had to co copy them, and er you know, you got these things, but the registrar he was, you know, he was man. [speaker003:] Mm. Have you s? Did you see many changes in, over the pre-war era? [speaker002:] Yes erm during the h the Probably one of the reasons I was set on to start with, was the tremendous amount of house building. I mean, John, who was a local builder, sold a house a day for five years, which is some building. And you can see John, whichever way you go into, you'll see John types E and G, the semi-detached on Road, Lane and Road, and Road. You'll see them everywhere. And one or two people are very honest, they call the House, [LAUGHTER] because they borrowed the money from Halifax Building Society []. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] What about transport in? [speaker002:] Transport? Oh well now it isn't a patch on what it was. Erm yo there was so many trains into Nottingham, into Victoria at twelve minutes, it took you thirty minutes into the Midland Station, having called at and, and all sorts of places on the way. They were, first of all, there were and 's buses, direct and the bus. And then, of course, come along and er for while there was a competition with chasers over the forest, you know one running either just in front, or just behind the other, sort of thing. And then, tt er Reynolds took ove er Reynolds went and er Trent took over and then Duttons went, and Trent took over again. [speaker003:] What about? Did many people have cars in Hucknall? [speaker002:] No, very few, erm in Lane, which is now [LAUGHTER] in an estate agent's parlance, erm a desirable part of the town, they used to be Mr the local the solicitor, of Castlegate, and his wife used to drive him to the station, to catch the train to Nottingham. She also meet him m met him at lunchtime, because the steam coach used to come out from town, and bring the business men, the wealthier one, out. [speaker003:] Mm. And I suppose, seeing as it was so short, it was worth coming home? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] In that sort? [speaker002:] Oh yes, er he could er he could still have an hour lunchtime, and er only be out of the office, say, an hour and three quarters. [speaker003:] Erm moving on a l a little bit, what was your social life at the time? [speaker002:] My social life, I suppose, ticked round chapel, then it ticked round er cycling and er walking. My brother tt he er had a bicycle and then he joined up, er we did have a hectic time, he could make anything go. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] He built a motorbike out of scrap bits he found on the tip, which didn't endear him to Grandma, or anyone else. And then joined so he joined the army, and I was left with this bicycle, and a friend of mine said, How about coming with us on Sunday, you can skip chapel this Sunday, and we'll go out er we're going into Derbyshire, and I finished up on Ack's Edge. I'd never ridden a bike, hardly, before. But then they had a cycling club, at chapel, and so we tended to go Saturdays, and then I started walking and youth hostelling. We went youth hostelling for m the sort of the chapel choir, after When you grew up in chapel, then you were either found a job teaching, in the Sunday School, or you went into the choir. Well I went in a choir, I could never sing, and I still can't, and er the choir used to go out quite a lot, and er we cycled and we youth-hostelled, even as w or in on working parties, at some of the peak hostels. [speaker003:] What about erm, you were involved in the amateur dram dramatics? [speaker002:] Well this er came through the same thing, the Youth Hostels Association, we had a visit from Gyp some German ones who did m play reading in hostels, and er some of ours went back there, and the Youth Hostels Associations, they had a play reading group, and er I joined that. As I say, I'd al been in things at chapel, Silas Marner and things, but er this was another thing, and of course, that's where I met my wife, at er Row, which is the boys' clu was the boys' club's Headquarters. And er we did one or two plays there and [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] in the old S St 's Church hall on Street, which has now gone. [speaker003:] Would Robin have acted with you, then? [speaker002:] Robin, er William was at school, one year behind me and I played with him, but Bill wasn't very er big. Erm I'm amazed now when I see him on television as to how big he is, because he wasn't as a youngster, and he was fragile and er we ribbed him because, in those days, you had an attache case for a school bag, and your initials were put on it. And er, he had the lot, W H M B, you see, and er he wasn't Robin, then. [LAUGHTER]. [cough]. And er this was one of things that my old boss, when people came into name their children, he said Now remember, these initials will go on case, perhaps, one day, and you don't want S A P, or something like that. And if they came in a with name that was unusual, er Now, are you sure? Do you want a moment [LAUGHTER] to think about it []? You know, when somebody came up with Mehetabelle, or something like that. Er but no, er Robin and the local dramatic club was er very, very good, you're in the market for money, putting on things in the chapel, or in the Co-op hall, at. Hit-the was usually done in the Co-op hall, and er they were good. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean, people didn't pay money just [LAUGHTER] out of, [] you know, loyalty, completely. [speaker003:] What about the Spanish Civil War? Do you remember? [speaker002:] Well, at that time my best pal went to the pit, his mother wouldn't let him enter in th for scholarship, but he did happen to come here for, Well, he seemed to always get a day's day release from the year dot, I think, and er eventually he got some A levels. He got his trade unions things, and his deputy's certificate, and that. But then, he got some A levels and he's finally got an Open University degree, good luck to him. And er we used to go occasionally to W E A meetings, in the library at, and er I wasn't a member of his class, but I did once go and hear Hugh, when he was at Nottingham. And er then er we had er a tutor who was very, very keen and we nearly all went to er the Spanish Civil War, and we took er the er paper for ages, erm and er But one of the group did go, Frank from, went, but the were always Communist, they never claimed to be Labour. But er they were always er well-remembered, and er w Spanish Civil War through, I suppose nowadays, you call them fringe newspapers, but there was this paper we used to get at the tim at the time It wasn't the er Morning Star, or even it's predecessor, erm but you got a paper and you sort of heard the other side. Erm er, very concerned as to what it was going to lead up to up, and hoping, you know, against hope that's you weren't going to be involved in anything like that. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And my Grandmother certainly wouldn't have wanted me going She had er her feet very firmly on the ground. I hadn't realized till long, long afterwards, until she after she was dead, that er she and her brother came to work, when the Midland Railway came to Nottingham, they left Norfolk, and he's got a horse, as a carter, and they walked from Holt, in Norfolk, to Nottingham, in search of a job. And they went to live at, and [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Wh what about the Sec Second World War? [speaker002:] The Second World War? Well, originally er I was involved in er registration, because there, with this very loose connection with the registrar, by now I was full time with the council, as rating assistant and rent collector. And er I got involved on national registration and er, on one occasion, we were working, we'd got a deadline and we were working through the weekend, and my wife came to pick me up at what she thought was a reasonable time, at one o'clock on Saturday, found she was given a cup of tea and set to work, and we finished, going home about midnight. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] So would you would you work overtime a lot? [speaker002:] Oh yes, you worked overtime, for which there was no pay, I mean, it didn't count er You see things, you know, there was less structure about it, then, erm and you could have ti if you wanted time off for something, you'd probably have got it fairly easily, but er it didn't seem to be the great arguments that you've had since. And of course, er by nineteen forty erm well, Christmas thirty nine, I'd got my calling up papers. [speaker003:] Were you on th? You were on the point of getting married, by that time,? [speaker002:] No. I We'd talked about it and said Well, we're not going to get married whilst war's on, as er probably the generation before, had said in nineteen fourteen, and er we got married eventually on the first of December, nineteen forty. Erm when one of our friends, who was a writer for the local press, headlined it, The cutter who walked a thousand miles together, before he got called up. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Was this because of your rambling? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] So that's the? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] What what were your experiences of the war? [speaker002:] Absolutely chaos, [LAUGHTER] I suppose []. Erm I had expressed a preference for the Navy, so I was sent to Plymouth, to join the Devonshire regiment, at Mill Bay docks, which was a an infantry regiment and machine gun core regiment. And er it was very reg a regular come territorial battalion, and I was one of five foreigners from up country, erm you thought yourself as er an absolute native in grass skirts, waving a machete, or something. And er but er we got to know them eventually, but for the first few weeks, whilst we were in Devon, I think the five foreigners sort of got landed. We'd got nowhere to go at weekends, and they disappeared. [LAUGHTER]. Erm but then we slept under every hedge, I think, along the south coast, till we lost our machine guns, collected anti-tank guns, and eventually were transferred to the Royal Artillery, but still with this county pride of Devon, which I'd never met before. In Nottinghamshire, we don't have county pride, to the sense of Yorkshire and Devon, you know, where it's absolutely m something that really matters. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm Devon, erm and their distaste of their neighbours, or distrust of Cornwall, I know, on one occasion, in the first fortnight, I think, we were in the Y M at Devonport, and er there was an argument with the Duke of Cornwall's light infantry and er well, I know we got out of a back window of the Y M fairly smartish, erm avoiding trouble. But er tt erm tt again, er I had a spot of luck, I suppose, erm at one stage we had a very ex-Indian service bloke who ha as quartermaster, had thrown a typewriter through the window, he was known to do daft things like that. I happened to be able to put it together again, it wasn't too difficult, and er so I got the job of being clerk-cum-what-have-you. It didn't get me out of very much, except a few guard duties and er I collected one stripe, and then two, and I did the pay and all sorts of things. Eventually we m, when we became a mobile, self-propelled anti-tank unit, erm my office er thing for paying everything, was a metal table, shall we say, on the inside of a truck, that was about one foot by two feet. And on that there was a typewriter and you could send signal messages, and everything. But typewriters we had problems with because, if they went in for repair, you never got them back from the Ordinance Core, and so at one place in Tunbridge Wells we handed a typewriter in and because the army were allowed to buy greaseproof paper, we bought a lot of greaseproof paper which came in the package of a new typewriter. Erm er, nothing changes. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right. Can you tell me when and where you were born Mr? [speaker002:] Yes number seven Road,,. [speaker003:] And erm were your parents from? [speaker002:] Yes, both of them. [speaker003:] So they've lived here [speaker002:] Well not locally,, more. My mother was born in and my father was born in Abbey, in the grounds of Abbey, in the stables. [speaker003:] He was [speaker002:] His father,his my grandfather, was a groom, and er they lived in the erm in the Abbey grounds, in the courtyard of the stables. There were some cottages there. In fact he was, my father was christened in the Abbey. Which is rather [LAUGHTER] unusual []. [speaker003:] And what what was your what was your father's occupation? [speaker002:] My father at first, I think in his very early days, er was a sort of a farm hand. And then he became erm he worked at the at the Colliery as a er an ostler, a horseman you see. [speaker003:] Oh a horseman. [speaker002:] And erm looked after all the ponies. And as I recall as a child [cough] there were well over a hundred ponies down Pit at that time, because during the nineteen twenty one strike they brought them all up to the surface and put them in the fields and I used to go with my father to sort of look after them. [speaker003:] Oh and then, this was this was in [speaker002:] The twenty one strike and the twenty six strike. They brought them up both times, onto the surface. [speaker003:] So you used to go with your father then [speaker002:] That's right into the fields, they they had er the colliery had a er farm adjacent to the er to the the colliery. Farm it was called, it was rather a big farm as well and these ponies were put into the green fields that sort of on the farm. [speaker003:] But this was just during the strike? [speaker002:] That's right, oh yes they were never brought up otherwise, never saw daylight otherwise. [speaker003:] And er what did your mother do? [speaker002:] Well my mother was just a housewife as I recall. Erm well as a housewife erm hm we we were poor people. The house that we lived in was a two up and a two down sort of thing you know, and er I know my mother used to take in washing, go out black leading. [speaker003:] What [speaker002:] Well black leading was a sort of erm going out cleaning the old fireplaces, for people that were slightly better off than we were, their husbands might have been a tram driver or a railway driver. They had a little bit higher standard of living. [speaker003:] I see. [speaker002:] And they could afford to pay the shilling or one and sixpence to have their fireplaces done. And my mother used to have to go out to supplement our income you see. [speaker003:] Because because er in those days [speaker002:] Well we were poor, we were poor. No arguing about it. Erm and when I say we were poor there were people even poorer than we were, much poorer. Erm my father was a er a gardener, sort of as a erm hobby and he had allotments and erm we lived very well foodwise you know on what he really produced. This was in the early days of when we was in Road, we did move from there eventually. I'll tell you about that later. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] So you he grew his own vegetables. [speaker002:] Vegetables that's right yes. And he used to erm things you don't see in allotments today, he used to build the clamps for the pits for storing winter potatoes and turnips and that sort of thing in the garden. [speaker003:] What were they? [speaker002:] Well well they used to make a pile of these things and put straw on top of them and then soil on top of them to keep the frost out. [speaker003:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] And ev every time you want any potatoes you go and open the clamp or the pit or whatever it was called and take some out and seal it up again and that's how we used to store them. [speaker003:] And they would keep for all the time. [speaker002:] Oh yes, a ll through, all through, all through the winter. The straw and they used to have a like a little erm out at the top of the straw to let the heat out. It was it was a work of art to make one you know, it wasn't easy. [speaker003:] And where was the allotment? [speaker002:] Erm erm, Road. Near the boneyard, there was an old boneyard, it's the road that runs through from Church, there were no houses there then, it's all built on now, and there was a sl like a lane used to come from Church to Forrest. I believe today it's called Road. I'm not sure about that. But it was a little lane and there were all these allotments that were on this erm this little lane, and I'm not sure I think my father had two. Of these allotments, er I don't know how many square yards each one would be, but that was his sort of spare time sort of work, occupation. [speaker003:] And and what sort of, when did he have ti, when did he go to the allotment, can you remember? [speaker002:] Well I, this this is something that's always staggered me because he worked seven days a week, down the mine feeding horses you see, had to be fed, and watered seven days a week. And erm he he worked shifts, er the morning shift or the day shift as it was called, which was from erm, I don't know as far as I could tell it was from six till two or something like that. And the afternoon shift was two till ten. And the erm night shift was till ten till six or ten till seven whatever it might be. But he used to fit in between. that in my view is er what I call a being a glutton for work. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But er as I say there were people really worse off than we were but we weren't all that well off and my mother as I say took in washing and did black leading and all that sort of thing for very small remuneration. Erm [speaker003:] How many other er other children [speaker002:] There was just one sister, just one sister. I have one, she's still alive as well. I have one sister and erm [speaker003:] Is she younger or older? [speaker002:] Younger than me, yes, just slightly younger than me, two or three years, I don't know [LAUGHTER] exactly [] but I should say she's two or three years younger than me. Well I know she is. But erm eventually we moved from there and my father er we moved into a company house in Village. When I say a company house I mean a house that was owned by the colliery, newly built with a bathroom. [speaker003:] Oh and when, how old were you when you moved in there? [speaker002:] Erm as near as I can tell you, I could be about er er fourteen. [speaker003:] About fourteen. [speaker002:] Yes. I'd say I'd be about fourt I should be about fourteen. Just as I was sort of starting work. [speaker003:] Yes. Can I take you back [speaker002:] Yes dear. [speaker003:] To to before then in [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] in the other house as a child [speaker002:] Mhm [speaker003:] erm what do you rem you know you mentioned the boneyard what [speaker002:] Yes [speaker003:] else do you remember about [speaker002:] Ooh [speaker003:] the area, can you describe what [speaker002:] The area itself? [speaker003:] yes what [speaker002:] Erm well the house itself as I say was two up and two down, it was gas lit. There was no electricity in the house and I can very well remember the gas lighting. There wasn't even a mantle, it as a wall bracket that came out of the wall with a little tiny gas jet that fanned out sot of thing and that was your illumination for the the bedroom. The er the two rooms downstairs and a like a scullery affair at the back erm they were lit by a central gas with a mantle, gas mantle you know. Which you used to light with a taper or something like that and they had little chains on to adjust your light. [speaker003:] Oh which can light to dimmer and [speaker002:] That's right, yes, yes, yes. Well it was always dim, always dim, even the bright light was dim, you know what I mean, there was there was very little illumination really when you consider what we have today. Erm the scullery now that was just cold water, out of an earthenware, er all the sinks in those days were brown. They were all, there were no white sinks as such they were all brown. And then there was a there was a coal fired copper int he corner, and er this was for washing, for boiling your clothes. [speaker003:] Oh, can you describe that, [speaker002:] Yes, erm now Monday morning was invariably washday. And er your parents or your mother or your father would get up very early that morning to light the copper, so that the water would be hot to start boiling, it would probably take, it could take a couple of hours to sort of re really heat a copper full of hot water. And erm the clothes would be put in there and er they would be boiled. [speaker003:] So it was like a large tub? [speaker002:] You can imagine all the steam. That's right it was like a huge I say huge I don't know how many gallons it would hold, it was a fair copper. And er the fire was underneath this you see in a little grate and you used to open the door and stoke it up and er more often than not it was fired by slack, which was a residue of the coal out of the coal house, you know when you broke your coal up with the lumps the the little sl bits of slack they were all put on one side for the copper fire. And er when that was done the washing the mangle was always in the yard, in the backyard, the old mangle with the wooden rollers and it was quite an effort to turn and we children very often ha to give a turn. Was erm always kept in the yard, there was no room for it in a small scullery, and there were big old wooden rollers. And as I say you used to have to erm children used to hav well the elder children had to give a turn with the mangling. Your mother fed the clothes into the rollers and you had to turn the old mangle. [speaker003:] And this used to squeeze out the [speaker002:] That's right, that that was that was water you see. Erm used to have a also have a wooden tub and a ponch [speaker003:] What was a ponch [speaker002:] Well a ponch er it's sort of made of wood, and got a got a handle crosswise which you held in one half of it in each hand, it had a stem, and on the on the ponch itself was a sort of er piece of wood that had been er cut out to have about four, I think it was four, legs on this, you see and you used to stand over the ponch and [speaker003:] Oh and [speaker002:] ponch it you see. [speaker003:] And so and and s like scrub well scrub [speaker002:] Well it was it was that's right it was getting the dirt out of the clothes you see. And then of course there was a erm also the scrubbing board, which was a corrugated board which you used to rub the clothes on like that. That was wash day. Erm [speaker003:] And these were kept a in the yard, you had [speaker002:] That's right, all those were in the yard, that's right, yes. Along with the bastion, the bastion u hung on the on the on the toilet wall, nine times out of ten. It was a big galvanized er sort of affair you know. That you hung onto this wall and that was brought in once a week for bathing in front of the fire. On the [speaker003:] So that would, in the in the lounge would this be? [speaker002:] Lounge, we didn't call it lounge then dear. It was the back room. [LAUGHTER] Lounge wasn't wasn't a word that was heard. It was drawing room for people that had them. [speaker003:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] Very seldom you heard the word lounge. Oh no it was a [LAUGHTER] that would be a misnomer if ever there was one, because there was room for a table and four chairs and perhaps a settee and that was it. I mean a room half this size and this is not a big room. Oh no they were quite small and then there was the parlour. And that was invariably reserved for sort of erm weddings, births, and funerals, and perhaps on a at Christmas you'd go in there. Otherwise it would never be used. Oddly enough you had a room there, a nice room the front of the house, er lots of people who were fortunate had an old piano on there and they'd have the usual weekend singsongs where you very solemn music for front parlour. Er I mean this would be considered to be a front parlour and you live in the the back room. [speaker003:] And it's the same size as the back room? [speaker002:] Yes that's right, it might have even been a little bit bigger than the back room, but very seldom used. And they very seldom had a fire in it at all. [speaker003:] And as a child did you know that that you you didn't use this room to? [speaker002:] Oh yes yes, never used it, we never used it. Yeah you say you you you could go probably weeks and never go into it. There's a door like that to come into to have a little er there wasn't a passage because the front door was straight onto the street in this room. The parlour door went straight onto the street, because it was a terrace you see and you go into the into the front room here and you have another door into the next room and another door into the scullery at the back. And then there was a yard and then there was a garden. [speaker003:] And and what sort of size, you had the garden [speaker002:] Oh yes only a small garden there was small terraced gardens, you couldn't er utilise them to any great degree for for growing or anything like that. flower gardens they used to use them for, some people would probably grow small things like lettuce and salads and things of that nature. But erm all the houses were the same. All the houses were the same, sort of erm, one two three four, there was perhaps four or five to a block. And then there was four or five again, and four or five again, over the street like that. But it was erm it was a happy time for in many respects you know. And although as I say people were very poor they seem to be very happy some of them. Erm I remember all of them, I know all their names, I can remember all the names of these different people. And er one old lady, that only recently died about three years ago, at about ninety seven, and she was there when I was a child. Er she'd just recently died an old lady named Mrs, lived at the first house. Used to get a sort of entry you know round the top and there was these four or five, I think five, four or five, cottages. Little houses that er were there. And quite big families were brought up in some of these houses with only two bedrooms. It's amazing really, I don't know how they used to and there were only two of us. We had to share a room. But when you've got four or five or six children in a house you know with two bedrooms. [speaker003:] However you said there were quite a few families with twelve [speaker002:] Ooh yes, yes, yes. I had erm two of my mother's no my mother's they were both brothers, my mother's brothers, had eleven children each. And they lived in in smaller houses than we'd got. However [speaker003:] And the [speaker002:] they survived I don't know. Erm my mother, we were a little bit better off than they were and er [cough] I remember going to a child with my mother, to see what would be my aunt you see and uncle, and the only time I ever remember seeing my aunt with eleven children was sitting at the corner of a table with a sort of a coarse apron on and just sitting there and I never saw her doing anything. I supposed she was too fatigued to even [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] walk about. [speaker003:] And and were the children all in the house. [speaker002:] Yeah, well they'd be in and out the yard and everywhere I'd, wherever they used to be I don't know. But they always used to say there was two football there was a, two football teams between the two families. That's how they used to count them up. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes. Yes and some of them are still alive today. Yes. And they lived in er in Street, which are all gone now. [speaker003:] Wh how far, was that quite near? [speaker002:] That's no no it was quite near. In fact it was a s, that was the erm street that the school where I attended, there was a school in this erm, in Street. It was called the Street School. Later it was called the School. That's where I had my educa education. [speaker003:] And how was [speaker002:] And that was next door to the tannery. Can you believe in building a school or a tannery next door to a, which ever came first I don't know, but the there's the school was there, the tannery was there. And don't know if you've ever ever smelt a tannery in full production, have you? [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Well it's horrible. [LAUGHTER] To say the least it's horrible, and yet there we were a school and a tannery side by side. [speaker003:] And how far away from your home was this? [speaker002:] Erm oh I should be a good mile, a good mile, and that's that's another little story there. That you never hear or see today. We used to have to pass on the way to school we used to pa pass a bakehouse, Bakehouse, in Road. And erm my mother used to bake, and we used to take the clothes basket with the tins of dough ready prepared by your mother and we used to take them to the bakehouse at lunchtime, when we were coming back from our from our meal, the midday meal from home, leave them at the bakehouse and so the baker had finished his morning's baking with his oven of his own bread you see. And he used to put them into the oven while it was still hot to bake for him used to pick them up on our way home from school. [speaker003:] Oh was this quite a usual thing for [speaker002:] Ooh usual that were yes, oh lots of people did that. [speaker003:] You you you paid your mother paid [speaker002:] You paid a small fee you see or a small charge to have this and the your mother used to put the the dough in the tin and er a little s bit of paper with the name on it, you see with a name on it and that used to go in to the oven. And then we'd pick it up on our way home from school. [speaker003:] And how often was this [speaker002:] Perhaps once a week, twice a week, twice a week sometimes. [speaker003:] How many loaves would? [speaker002:] And I Oh I I can't remember any anyway we used to take the clothes basket. Children used to take the clothes basket. Whe and you know, put into the clothes basket and then pick it up on our way home from school. On our way home from school we should be nibbling all the crust, the nice crosspieces to eat. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes, it's er i I think, I'm not sure if the bakehouse is still there but erm it was a man named. I remember him very well. And in the winter time we used to love to linger in the bakehouse coming home cos it was so warm. So warm you see. [speaker003:] What er can you remember any other shops in that area? [speaker002:] Oh yes I can. the butcher, on the corner of Street, the little tiny grocers where you used to go and fe your mother used to go and fetch her groceries, and if she spent three shillings in the shop she was a good customer. Erm there was also a fish and chip shop er that was as well on the corner, that was there years and years and years. Erm and then there was a Miss kept another little tiny grocer shop there. Oh I know all the shops. But the butchers shop was er a very well known shop, and er I remember very well we used to go into there er of course when things were re were really poor, you'd go into the butchers shop in the middle of the week perhaps about Thursday and erm they used to sell they used to cook their own meats then of course you know, pressed beef and all that sort of thing and I remember this beautiful big white erm well it'd be a ceramic dish affair on a stand, used to have a big piece of this pressed beef in it, cutting it off, and all the little bits used to fall round the side, well them come Thursday when only got a shilling in your pocket or your parents had got a couple of shillings left, you got to fetch two pennyworth of the bits of the pressed beef that had fallen round the pan, and that was a meal. [speaker003:] How would your mother serve that up, with with? [speaker002:] Well I don't know, I don't know how she'd I suppose we should have it on bread and butter or something like that you see or with bread. I mean and lets face it you came home from school er I think we used to come home about half past four from school summertime and the first thing you come into the house and you get a great big thick slice of home made bread and jam which your mother had also made, also made. And that was put into your hand and you were sent out to play. We were playing marbles at you know and at and at this time of year, or whip and top and that sort of thing. And then you'd come back later and have a a sort of tea, but it would still be bread and jam, you know what I mean. Er as you got older of course you got different meals, but as youngsters we ate a terrific amount of bread and jam. [speaker003:] What sort of jam? [speaker002:] Well there was all sorts, whatever was on the go, there was raspberry jam that my mo we used to later years my father grew raspberries and that sort of thing, blackcurrant jam, my mother made all sorts of things like that. She was a good provider, my my mother was. And erm in her particular way she was quite a good cook too. They had to be, they had to be. [speaker003:] They had to make things. [speaker002:] Yes. And going back to the taking of the bread to the erm er bakehouse erm if there was a fire going they didn't do that, because they were baked in the oven, but in the summertime we did it more often than in the winter, because if there was no fire you see, there was no gas cooker or anything like that, all the cooking was done on the coal fire and the oven at the side of it. And the hot water system was a little boiler at the side of the fire as well and you used to have a ladle and take it out of the out of the er out of the boiler on the side. That's another thing you see that that that today you had a a tin ladle and it ever the ladle sort of leaked or developed a hole in ti you didn't discard it and throw it away, you used to go and buy what was called a, which was two little tin washers with a little bit of, I can't remember if it was f a fabric or or rubber, two pieces and you put one on one side and one the other and then a little screw and bolt went through, nut and bolt went through it and tightened it up and that stopped your leak, and that ladle then lasted a lot more a lot longer time. [speaker003:] And they sold [speaker002:] Now today it would have been thrown away wouldn't it. [speaker003:] They sold these kits shelf [speaker002:] Oh yes, I can see them on now, cards, they used to sell them on cards. You you know like erm they were they were fixed onto a card with something like elastic or something like that. And they cost cost a penny of three ha'pence one of these, they were called. And and it was like a tin ladle which I can remember ever so well the tin ladle. [speaker003:] You didn't you didn't have a kettle then it was [speaker002:] Oh you had a kettle, oh you had a kettle as well, yes you had a kettle, which you used to maybe boil on the fire. Er if you were er some people had a gas ring, you know, not a cooker, a gas ring those sort of ring that you can boil a kettle on, or you could have a saucepan. I can remember very well having the first cooker we had, gas cooker we had. That was an innovation. [speaker003:] Was that in in in this house in [speaker002:] That was in yes, that was in we had a gas cooker put in there. And er I can er [sigh] no electricity hadn't been put in that house because the one we moved into at, that had got electricity in it then. Er but no gas. Cooker was all electric,th they'd got no gas mains up into the into the old village in those days you see. So we were all electric there but erm this house at it was erm it was a great time really that we we I mean the kids were happy together. They played I mean all sorts of games that we played they don't play today. [speaker003:] Yes, what can you tell me about some of those? [speaker002:] Oh course I can Erm there was a game that we called er Tin Lurky You probably won't well you never hear that expression now and er we used to get this old t any tin can and er you somebody would kick it you see and er the one that was sort of one used to have to fur and fetch this tin an bring it back again and then was should all hide, sounds a daft silly game, I know, but this one had to find us and the first one he found it was his turn next to fetch the tin and then find us again. You played that for hours. [speaker003:] Where where would you play this? [speaker002:] Well that we had a favourite place for that, that was at the corner of Road and Road by the chapel, the Chapel, and because it was on a hill, slope on to. There were no houses, it was all fields beyond there. And erm we used to kick this tin down the hill and er as I say it would roll down and we would all go and hide anywhere, back garden, front garden, over a wall, round a corner, anywhere like that you see. As I say the first one that was found had to, it was his turn to be on next. And then there was another game we used to play was called Peggy. And er the er we used to have a piece of wood, a small piece of wood that was shaped er like a sort of almost like torpedo at both ends. And you used to er stand this on a house brick, like it might be on there, and you had another long stick and you use to hit it on one end and as it flew in the air you see it used to fly up then you used to have to hit it as far as you [speaker003:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] could. Again you used to drop it and whoever was what we called on had to fetch this peg back again, put it onto there, and then come and find us again. That was a sort of similar game to the Tin Lurky [speaker003:] And and you used to, where did you get these? [speaker002:] We used to make them ourselves. Oh yes [speaker003:] You used to make [speaker002:] we used to make them ourselves. If you held a, got hold of a, an old sort of pickaxe shaft, that was the ideal thing for the the stick to hit the peg with you see. fly in the air and hit it and away it goes, if you missed it you you missed your turn. Erm another one we used to erm do of course that was a bit more adventuresome as we got older, what was called er Spirit Tapping. Er you won't know anything about this. What happened [cough] you used to have a pin and a button and a a reel of cotton. Can you see what's coming? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [speaker002:] Didn't think you could, anyway you tie a piece of cotton onto the pin with a button on the end of it. And you'd stick that into the casement window of a house. Okay, put it into it and you'd tie your length of cotton or black thread onto the piece of cotton with a button that's dangling down and you'd go across the road into somebody's front garden behind a wall or behind a hedge and just keep pulling the cotton to tap on the window. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] This is true you know. And out would come the people to the door, course they couldn't see anything or anybody, back they'd go and then you'd do it again. This was t I mean when you think about it er it was good fun and er eventually people realized what was happening and of course they knew what was happening but that went on for a long long time. They called that Spirit Tapping. If there was some old people here now they'd they'd confirm all that I'm telling you now. [speaker003:] Did you get up to any other mischievous [speaker002:] Oh yes, lots of them, lots of them. There was another one that I consider today was very highly dangerous. We we used to get erm at the chapel meetings we used to get erm paper, newspaper and put up a s guttering, a spout you know, a drainpipe, and put a match to it. And it used to roar, you can imagine what the noise was like in the chapel. This is true. And they say they're all bad lads today don't they? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But this used to happen, this used to happen. Aye, we've done all sorts of things, there was er I used to go to chapel as well I I we were we were compelled to go to chapel. Three times a day, well twice a day as we were young, as we get older it was three times, it means we have to go to evening chapel as well. [speaker003:] This was er your parents [speaker002:] That's right, we used to go to Road Methodist and erm we got up to all sorts of capers there you know. And er but we were we were we were good boys at heart. We never hurt anyone, I think it was just sheer devilment more than anything else you know. We used to torment the poor old Superintendent unmercifully at the er Sunday School. All sorts of ways. But er I could er I I could go on for a long time on that subject but time's short dear, [speaker003:] This is [speaker002:] time's very very short you know. The anniversaries, they used to be every Easter time, an anniversary, for which the boys invariably got a new little suit, and the girls had a new frock. That was your annual affair and the er the er the chapel itself was at the end of it used to put up a tiered platform if you can imagine it you know at the end of the little chapel and the erm the younger children was on the bottom and as you got older you graduated to the top and er I don't know why it was though but er I always had to say the collection piece. [speaker003:] What was that, can you describe it? [speaker002:] Yes well at the end of the the the er service or anniversary, whatever, I don't know if it was called a service or not. Erm there was an appeal, for the for the collection plate that was going round. [cough] And we the used to pick on a on some sort of a nice looking little boy or little girl to say the collection piece that was appealing and I can't remember what it was now but er probably about four verses of what they called a collection piece, just before they started to collect you see and erm I think I said that three or four years erm running almost, so I must been pretty well good at it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But erm it was enjoyable. Erm the er choir master there was a er Mr, and he was a wonderful man. He was what we called a School Board man as well he was, that was his official capacity, and in those days if you weren't at school they used to erm send a man round to see where you were, you know and why weren't you at school? And they called in the School Board man because lots of schools in those days were run by boards or erm governors I suppose they'd call them today. And er he was the choir master erm and he and he used to put us onto, we used to have various plays you know, erm maybe two a year or something like that. [speaker003:] This was through the Sunday School? [speaker002:] That's right, through the Sunday School yes. And erm I remember re re one play very very well. And in fact I've got a photograph of all the somewhere about the house. And erm one of the girls that was on there became a very very famous soprano in the country, erm Connie Shackelock you've probably not heard of her, she's sort of a bit before your time but er she always used to sing Land of Hope and Glory on the last night of the Proms a few years ago. And erm that was the spirit that was in those days you see erm, they said I've got nothing to do. We'd go to choir practice perhaps one night a week, er Band of Hope another one. Now you're going to say, What's Band of Hope aren't you? [LAUGHTER] That was a sort of temperance league, you know erm where they used to erm er sort of er tell you about all the evils of strong drink. And it was like the old, similar to the old Templars that were. Erm it was called the Band of Hope. And signature tune if that's what you like to call it was Dare to be a Daniel, Dare to Pass a Public House and Dare to Make it Known. I can't tell you any more than that but that was the, they had this tune that went with it. and these ladies used to tell us all about his and try and bring us up into a clean way of life, which wasn't bad, wasn't bad at all. [speaker003:] Did it, what did you think about, did you mind going to Sunday School? [speaker002:] Well I didn't mind till I got a bit older, then I sort of started to kick, and er as I got older, that's another story. But erm er we used to have to go Sunday morning. And in the afternoon to Sunday School. As I say we got older we used to go on Sun at Sunday evenings as well. But when I look back when I think about it it probably ke kept us out of mischief you know. Cos what would we have done if we hadn't had done that? There was no such thing as radio television. [speaker003:] And of course all your other friends of the same [speaker002:] Same, yes yes. The chapels used to be full, the chapels used to be full. And if we weren't, if we hadn't hav been, I mean that's probably one of the problems of today I don't know. You see there's too much spare time on their hands. We didn't seem to have any spare time. There was different th different things that we used to used to do, I mean erm that was Sunday taken care of. It was a sort of a, as you grew older mind you, it was i i i it could have been a little bit of a miserable sort of day. Because erm even when radio came er there was only sort of chamber music on the radio you know. And I think the stations used to close down at night, like on Sunday evening. And er we thought the heavens opened when la Radio Luxembourg came on at er er Sunday even all day Sunday, when we could tune to the sort of dance music and the singing and all that sort of thing. But on B B C which was the only station operating at that er time erm er Sunday was a [cough] a drab day. If you weren't a church guy. But we used to en I used to enjoy going to it, as I say until I got older and I wanted to sort of stretch my wings a little bit and and I did other things. But as a child it er to me I thou I think it was er very good. It's a pity really that er it hasn't been kept up. I think for them today. [speaker003:] How's the, and what sort of time would you spend, how long would you spend at Sunday School? [speaker002:] Well well you'd go to er er I should say in the morning service, that was a service you used to have. [speaker003:] Did you go with friends then? [speaker002:] You'd go at eleven o'clock. My parents used to go occasionally, not all the time, er eleven o'clock probably till twelve. And in the afternoon I think er it was about a quarter to three till four, and that was er Sunday School. And we were taught sort of er religious knowledge and all this sort of thing you know. And in the evening, that was a service again probably from six till seven. But you see er you know you'd got to do that so in between those times you couldn't do much else could you? Apart from getting ready to to go and then coming home again you see and your meals and that sort of thing. It was Sunday pretty well taken care of. But erm during the week time, in the week you you you you used to enjoy yourself in many ways. I remember Saturday, as a boy I er I used to run errands for people for pennies, like many more did. [speaker003:] You used to do what with that? [speaker002:] Run errands, [speaker003:] Run run errands? [speaker002:] Errands for pennies, yes. [speaker003:] That would be what, what would the errands be? What can you [speaker002:] Oh going to grocer the grocers and and even fetching a quarter of tea for for an old lady you see. [405 1] Er you did a lot of it voluntary but the the better off person perhaps would give you a penny. No more, and I don't mean a new one I mean the old one you know. And erm you were very, or even a ha'penny for that matter, and you was glad of a ha'penny. And when you think of what you could but a penny bar of chocolate and and get a decent size bar of chocolate for a penny. You could buy a ha'p ha'pennyworth of sweets. [speaker003:] So you used to spend your money on on sweets? [speaker002:] Think that right, anything like that you see, yes yes. And erm I used to help a ma and there's another funny one. There used to be a man used to come with a horse and dray selling greengroceries and his name was, T. His shop was on the top end of Road, when it was Road. And he used to come to with his black horse and dray and I used to go to help him on a er on a Saturday morning, used to get to about perhaps nine or half past and I'd go the rounds with him and all I used to do was to er [cough] take the peoples things that they'd bought up the entry you see because they were all entries then. And erm when I'd finished with him I'd perhaps get a two or three specked apples or a banana or something like you see. But the highlight of it was that I used to get a ride on the dray and I used he he we used to finish up the round at the bottom of erm Road, and Street. And then I used to get on to the dray and sit beside him on the box and then we'd go as far as Road, which is quite a stretch and I used o walk back. But I had the pleasure of riding on that dray all that way. That was a a a boy of course, little boy, I wouldn't be probably eight or nine years old. Used to enjoy it. That used to take card of many Saturday mornings. Another thing we used to do regularly as well we boys er [cough] there was a erm a yeast merchant in erm er Road, well I say merchant it ti it was his house, and he had a garage at the side of it and he used to sell yeast. And the yeast used to come to the erm Station at er in wicker baskets, in sacks, little tiny sacks used to be, little Hessian bags sort of thing, pressed into it har, you know what yeast is, you've seen yeast haven't you? And er we used to make about six trips with a two wheeled trolley from Station to his house, two boys' d do this job because it was very heavy work you know. And we'd perhaps make about six trips, and I think we used to get sixpence each for that. Not every Saturday morning but we used to do this job. He used to call on two of two boys, but there was a boy named, I remember him very well, and I used to do it regularly for this sixpence. And er it could take all all Saturday morning to do it you know. Er but we enjoyed it again it was sixpence and it was a morning you'd been doing something and that was it. [speaker003:] How did you [speaker002:] Er. [speaker003:] find out about these little jobs? [speaker002:] Oh you were, you were asked, somebody, I don't know how it came about but erm if you found there was something going you went to do it. I remember another thing I used to do, erm Estate before that was built erm there were all f open fields. It was like a sort of common land. And it was called the Daisy Field. And Road wasn't built on, that was a an a path, like a rough cart road and er Saturday afternoons in the summertime there was a coal merchant had two horses, a man named er, he lived in Street. He stabled the horses near those allotments where I've just told you about ny father had allotments. And I used to go and take these two horses and stay with them on a Saturday afternoon grazing on this Daisy Field, all Saturday afternoon. I think we used to get threepence for that Saturday afternoon's work for grazing these horses. But I was so small I can remember very well going down this what we called the Middle Pad, this Roa, it wasn't Road, I think it was called Middle Pad. It used to lead lead to Station and er I've seen these two when I've been walking around, I've seen them take their head up and lift me off the ground. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I was so small you see. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But ern we'd stay with them all Saturday afternoon. One boy'd do it one week and another boy'd do it another week you know. And er we'd get the princely sum of threepence of doing that. Erm I graduated from that to taking newspapers which a lot of us did. [speaker003:] W would you, when would you do this? [speaker002:] Twelve, you weren't allowed to do it until you were twelve. Twelve to fourteen you did that, and I took papers out for a newsagent called on erm. I had two rounds in the morning and a round in the evening. And the two rounds in the morning you did the bottom half of, for the first round and you went back to the shop and you got another bag full of papers and you did the top half of, if you know it. And erm [cough] like such streets as Street, Road, Street, er Road, Road, Street, all those streets you did. That was the top half, that was the upper crust,th they were funny. The the the the so called better off people lived at the top half, and the the the poorer type of people or the poorer class of property was on the bottom half, oddly enough and er [speaker003:] What sort er you were saying [speaker002:] Sort of segregation [speaker003:] Better off people, what sort of jobs [speaker002:] Well sort of well well you see er when I say that I mean erm er er insurance men, postmen, and postman was a very good job in those days you see. Postman was looked up to in those days, he was an educated man. A really educated man, if you if anyone had any forms to fill in er it was the postman you invariably went to, because he was considered to be, he could read and write you see. Er and lots of people couldn't. Er er bank clerks, this was the top half er shop keepers, erm and and and sort of the further you went to they, the better the people came because they were top half I mean I remember Tom Williams the professional golfer, he lived up there. Er the bank manager lived at the top half. Erm and various people like that you see and it seemed to sort of you you went up the scale. [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] Funnily enough, like that you see, I don't know why, dunno why, but erm it was so. [speaker003:] And and you the other half I mean what sort of [speaker002:] Well the lower class of course they were the labouring class and the out of works and and the very low, you see the the people on probably a wage of two pounds a week and less. And when you think of a railwayman earning a pound and thirty shillings a week you know. Yes, as a as a as a porter or a a a erm what they what used to call them that worked on the line, there was a special name for the li the people that read repaired the lines. They were very very poorly paid, on the railway. Well look at a miner I mean if he worked three days a week he might only get thirty shillings, in tho very very very seldom worked a full week. And you got to bring families up on this you know. [speaker003:] Why why why didn't they work, you said they di very seldom [speaker002:] The work wasn't there, the work wasn't there. [speaker003:] So [speaker002:] If they didn't want the coal they didn't go to work. Not like ti is now stockpiling it you know, and here we are paying interest on a mou, umpteen million pounds worth of coal. Oh no if the if the if the if the if the owners well they were privately owned then the mines were and if they didn't want to er get the coal out you didn't work. If they couldn't sell the coal. [speaker003:] So this would affect your father then? [speaker002:] On no my father was fortunate you see because he'd got to go to work because of the [speaker003:] Because of the horses. [speaker002:] He was very lucky. He had to go you see, but I mean er [cough] later in my lifetime when we lived in the in the village at I can remember very very well the the er the miners there er going to work and then coming home again, going to work and coming home again, nothing for them to do. There was a special system they had of erm of giving out work. I forget what they call the men but the men used to sit in groups, I can see them now siting in groups. And this er oh dear what was the name of it, they had a special title for the man that sort of ran the stall as they called it for getting the coal out and he he chose who he wanted to go to work. You were you were new. But erm it was rough but it was er it was a good way of life in some respects you know. [speaker003:] Was there much, can you remember much unemployment? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes oh yes a lot of it in the thirties, tremendous amount of unemployment. In fact it was far worse than it is today you know. Er they grumble about it today but when you think there there there was very little dole in those days, very little dole. I mean I can remember the nineteen twenty, I I weren't sure whether it was the twenty one or the twenty six strike, and my father was erm on strike, you see, but the ponies had to be thus cared for in the field an I don't think he received any pay and I remember very well erm going to the, my father applying for relief, and er we had to go and face the erm Court of Referees. And I can remember as a child my mother had to go, my sister, myself, and my father. And we were called into [cough] this [] long room [cough] at the erm it was at House at and er there was all these well I considered them to be old men, they couldn't have been so old you see but I was only a boy. And my father was a applying for this relief. [speaker003:] This, can you just explain the relief was [speaker002:] Well the relief was for, money to live on you see. [speaker003:] Yes so this was through the [speaker002:] Well it was it was charity you see. It was the local council money sort of thing, Government money [speaker003:] Government yes. [speaker002:] Like it would be D H S S today you see. And erm anyway they went into all your means, and what you'd got and what you hadn't got, I think my father had to sell his cycle. And then we were down to five shillings a week, there was four of us you see, five shillings a week relief. And erm the provivo proviso was that you had to pay it back though. [break in recording] And as I I recall on a Saturday morning I used to have to take the er one and sixpence each Saturday back to this House, and they used to issue us a little receipt and I remember my father keeping all those receipts until it was paid off. And when you think of a man earning about at the most two pounds ten shillings a week, one and sixpence was quite a sizable amount out of it, but eventually he paid it all off. Erm and during that strike erm we were fed in a soup kitchen. And I presume you know what a soup kitchen was like. [speaker003:] No, could could you explain? [speaker002:] Yes, erm well it was the back scullery of a er a local person's house, now these people, er it was a Mr and a Mrs. That er lived in this house and they were the the real grass roots of the old Labour Party, the real socialists, not like the ones that we know today that only pay lip service to it. They were the workers and er they sort of opened their kitchen up, or the back scullery, they went round to the local butcher scrounging and begging meat, to the greengrocers for peas, parsnips, carrots, you name it it all went into this big huge copper, which I've previously described to you as a washing copper, and they boiled all this soup up and we kids used to take the a jug and er we had to find the biggest jug we could, in the house that we could get, well the biggest jug we ever had was the wash-hand stand that was in the bedroom, that's the wash-hand stand jug. You probably don't remember it but there used to be a bowl and a big jug for washing you in the bedroom. You used to fill it with hot or cold water and use the bowl. Well we used to take this wash-hand stand jug fro the soup and er they'd fill er this with vegetable soup and er a hunk of bread. They didn't use to cut it in slices they used to break you a piece off a a big loaf. And er the reason we took the biggest jug we could find it wasn't so much to feed two children in the house you're parents also wanted a bowl because believe me in those times we were we were hungry, we were dear, very very hungry. But er we survived it and erm er another my father was a was a born countryman and er during his time he used to go and do a bit of er poaching. And I remember very very well he had a big heavy coat and my mother put him in a very big pocket on the inside of the coat and we always called that his rabbit pocket, because he very often came home with a rabbit. [cough] Also as very rare delicacy at times we used to get the odd pheasant, and the odd partridge. And of course during the strike period er this is one of the things he used to supplement our meals with you see. [speaker003:] Where where would he go to? [speaker002:] Well he'd go [LAUGHTER], er we lived at this t time in Road, well you went up the top of Road and then you were across and on into Forrest. Now beyond Forrest there were all fields, there were the two railways, the old Great Central Railway on one side of Forrest and the old Great Northern Railway on the other side of the forest. Well my father, when we lived there he worked at the Colliery and he used to walk home and during he s, before before he m before the strike we used to have these pheasants and things, and rabbits which he used to catch, because early morning he seemed to know exactly where to go to get a a pheasant that was roosting in a tree, you see or a bush. The rabbits he used to put a snare down for, and erm if we were lucky we got one. But during the er strike he used to go out purposely to get them and he used to go onto these fields. He would probably have got shop by the local farmers if he'd been caught but er he used to go on these local fields and er and er sn snare rabbits you see, or get a rabbit. And that used to supplement our our meals. And he wasn't the only one that was doing this you know, my father wasn't an individual just on h his own, there were other men did this sort of thing. And er that's how we we survived the the strike as we did. Er we got through it.Erm and when you think there was no money from anywhere but that five shillings a week that we got from the, from the er I think it was called the Board of Guardians, I'm not sure, and er we survived. Erm I did know at that particular time know what it was to have holes in my shoes, and a piece of cardboard put into it to protect your foot from the hole. Like a, thousands more, and another thing we knew we we very often, my wife and I were talking about it only the other day, there was an old saying that er er Percy White's out of prison. I don't suppose you now what that means at all do you? [speaker003:] No, no what does that mean? [speaker002:] Well that's when you've got a hole on your trousers and your shirt was poking through. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker002:] And you was you was told that Percy White was out of prison. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] This is true dear. b my wife and I was only discussing it er day before yesterday I think it was, we were talking about it because we were talking about this sort of thing. [speaker003:] Would your mother, did your mother make clothes for the family? [speaker002:] No I I, she had a machine, we had a sewing machine, I could tell you a story about that but I won't. Er she had a sewing machine, she used to make er sort of shirts but not suits and things like that she didn't, she repaired them. You'd have a patch you see and your trousers would be patched, and er I had no brothers to sort of hand-me-downs so of course mine we went had to be worn out, and erm you're normal attire in those days was a er a pair of trousers and a jersey, you didn't have a suit as such. Er when you did get a suit it had to be kept for Sunday, for going to to chapel you see, and if you were going to have a new suit it would always be at anniversary time, you didn't get one every anniversary. [speaker003:] This was Easter time, this what you call an anniversary. [speaker002:] Easter time that's right, round about now. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Round about now. And erm that's when you er when you had your a a a new new rig out as they called it in those days, they called it a rig out, new rig out in those days. Might get a pair of shoes and a two piece coat and trousers you see, but invariably your school attire was a jersey and er a pair of trousers. And er never shoes they were always boots, didn't have sort of half shoes it was always a pair of boots that you had. And er stockings and er [speaker003:] You ha you wore stockings then? [speaker002:] Wore stockings that's right yes you wore stockings. Erm and I I as far as I can remember I think such things as underwear were unknown. You know a pair of pants and vest. You'd wear er you might have a little vest in the wintertime but erm I think they was virtually unknown. And when I think back you know when I think about it and in the lower class of family even pyjamas were unknown. A a lad that wore pyjamas was considered to be a bit of a a sissy type of a lad you see. You'd go to you'd go to bed in a well if you were lucky you had a nightshirt or even in your own shirt that you was, as a young man you would. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] you know, how that change has taken place and I as I say we we were we were compared to some we were well off, we'd got a tap in the house.So many people hadn't even got a tap they were in the yard, and that tap was shared by a dozen families. That's that that up to recent times was happening in. [speaker003:] And and in this the street where you lived did most people have taps [speaker002:] Oh they had a tap in the house, everybody had a tap in the house and they had their own toilets. [speaker003:] toilet [speaker002:] And the and the toilet the toilet was adjacent to the, was built on to the house. But a lot of them at the bottom of the garden. You used to have to go right down the garden. But ours was, we had the the house the s the scullery if I can describe it and then there was the coal house and then there was a toilet. As I've said to you the the old bastinal used to hang on the toilet wall outside was a whole row of them you know these these big galvanized bath things that were brought in on maybe on a Friday night. And the youngest was bathed first to the eldest and as the young one was bathed bed, upstairs to bed, upstairs to bed, you see and so it went on. Can you imagine it? Not much. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh dear. But erm I erm I recall as well the shops that we were talking about. [whispering] I'm not sure [], the grocer's shop erm, now er they did credit trading in those days and most people took the credit. You used to have a little book and er the grocer would write it down what you'd had in the book you see and then you had to pay for it on th at the weekend. And if you didn't pay for it at the weekend you got no groceries next week. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And erm that's how it used to be so o obviously you had to pay like that but er I can remember the the Coop coming to. It was called, I I can't remember it opening but I can remember the the Cooperatives Association, not the, it was the. And that was on the corner of er er Road and Street at. And they had a shop on Vale as well and a shop in erm on, big s store on Road at but that was the Cop, independent Coop you see, like they all were in those days, the Coop, the Coop and so on, had a Coop, had a Coop, had a Coop at er, they've all had three shops. And this was a wonderful old grocery shop, er plain wooden floors you know, no tiles or anything like that, just the wood floors and I can see the barrels of apples and the barrels of this and then the oranges and the all the groceries and the bags of flour and the bags of sugar and and the and the grocer weighing the sugar up and all this sort of thing. And the tea in tea chests, loose tea in tea chests and you used to weigh it up by the quarter. [speaker003:] So everything used to be weighed [speaker002:] Weighed, yes yes, very little prepacked. Well it was more, it wasn't profitable you see the the the profit lay in the er in the in the packaging of the goods. I mean i i the new innovation is just coming round today I see starting the same thing all over again, you're weighing your own products at the. You see it's it's a little cheaper, see. But erm and all sugar used to be packed in thick, very thick blue bags, heavy blue thick bags, and there's an art in doing it as well in folding the the bag, I've watched them hours and hours. And er they used to pat the butter. The butter was all loose, there was no prepacked butter, it was all c came in tubs you know. And the and they used to pat the butter, there was one firm that specialized in nothing else, the. And er you you you could hear them patting this butter outside a shop you know, it was a lovely sound on marble slabs and they were patting away at this butter. But [speaker003:] And how would they s how would they sell that? How would you take the butter home then? [speaker002:] Buy it by pound, yes, they wrapped it up in paper wr in greaseproof paper yes they'd pat it into [speaker003:] They wrapped it up in paper. [speaker002:] a square. [speaker003:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] And take so much off and pat it up and then then wrap it, very nice and neatly. When you think of the work that the old grocer used to have to do you know, make you a three corner bag out of a bit of paper, to put a pennyworth of pepper in. I mean can you see it really when [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] when you think about it, yeah. And of course they sold almost everything the grocer sold almost everything. And er the then again that that's all all changed. Erm even the chemist shop as such has changed. That's been sort of revolutionized, when you when you think that you used to have to buy, didn't have to buy your tea, but you used to buy a tea from the chemist shop and the only person that sold it was a chemist, that was. Which is sold everywhere today, you could only buy it in a chemist shop, tea. Along with tea, that was another brand that the chemist used to sell. was a digestive tea, they called it Digestive Tea in those days. To sell it of course, but erm that was another facet of it. [speaker003:] Did you go with your mother then shopping [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes. And I could tell you another story as well, I maybe used to pinch an apple out of one of the barrels. But the shop, the store manager knew and it was paid for. [speaker003:] Oh I see. [speaker002:] You see, he knew. Ah. As a child, I can remember it ever so well, doing it, mm, taking this apple out and and invariably used to have one when I went in. But me mother used to pay for it you see. It was an understood thing, I think the kids used to do this but the parents used to, [speaker003:] Use used to pay [speaker002:] Used to yes used to put it right yes. He told hadn't he, the manager. But erm those were those those were school days. The school itself as I say I went to er Street School. And er in later days it was called the School. It got rather sort of upgraded. [speaker003:] What sort of, what time did you start school, can you remember? [speaker002:] Nine o'clock in the morning, er till twelve. We used to have a lunch break at around about half past ten I think ti was, we used to go out for a quarter of an hour into the school yard to play and have your lunch. You used to take your lunch with you, as sandwiches. Erm I can recall my first day at school. It was a Miss, was the he the teacher. And a Miss was the head mistress. This was the junior school, we went at five. And as I say you took your little wrapped up lunch invariably in newspaper, because they was no such thing as tissue paper int hose days you know, that wasn't hardly available. And erm you used to cut it into the basket in the corner. And [speaker003:] What everybody had to put their [speaker002:] Everybody yes the name, your name was on written on it you see. Everyone put their lunch into the basket in the corner and in this first class there used to be a a sandpit and I remember we we had very big cards, well I say very big about six inches long by three inches wide. And each one had got different letters of the alphabet ion it and that's how we learnt the alphabet. With these cards. I think there was three or four classes in the primary school. Then you graduated into the sort of the er erm upper school. [speaker003:] And you say in in in this class, this is when you first went to school they had a sandpit, this was for playing in? [speaker002:] That's right playing in, the sandpit, that's right a, a sandpit in the corner for playi we kids to play in you see. And er I remember this Miss very well, she was i, skirt down to her ankles sort of thing, black skirt you know and high collar and sort of tied hair, very dark person but she was a very nice charming lady as I recall now. And erm I think you know you you owe quite a lot to your first teachers, quite a lot. And er I I as I say I moved up into the next er school. [speaker003:] Can you re remember what sort, oh this was a different school? [speaker002:] No, same in the same school, in the same school yes, different different sort of department sort of thing. The primary school was a small school on one side and then we moved over to the boys, and the the boys school was on the top floor and the girls school was on the bottom floor. And we all used to we we both schools ended up, er used to use the same assembly hall. And erm we used to go into the assembly hall every morning for prayer and then we should just go up to the erm we we used to go upstairs to the er to the classrooms which were off a long corridor. There was one long corridor and all the classrooms were were off this corridor you see, I I should think there'd be er five, five classrooms, it was it was no sixth form. [speaker003:] Can you remember what sort of s, how many children to a class,? [speaker002:] Oh yes I can, about forty or fifty of us to a class. And erm the first class was a Mr erm Mis was a Miss. A Miss, that's right, she took the first class. That was one of the, graduating from the primary to the upper school. And I remember her very well and the next class we went into was a a Mr. [speaker003:] Can you remember what sort of lessons you you did? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes, yes, we did er we did everything, all the the three Rs and everything else. And as we got up into the classes we also had a woodwork er centre, and metal shop there. And we also had a swimming pool about, a small swimming pool. Er only a small one, erm it was real a a learner er swimming pool, but erm the less [speaker003:] This was contained in the school grounds? [speaker002:] That's right, yes, well it was a school yard, it wasn't, they weren't grounds a as such, it was a yard. An asphalt yard. And erm we erm when you got to about the third class I think you you was allowed to participate int he woodwork and metal er class, you used to go across for half a day a week. And other schools in the area used to use this facility as well as well as we did. And the the pool too. Like from Road at, and er I think I'm not sure whether or didn't use to use it as well. There was quite a few schools used it. Road schools, they used it. Er the woodwork centre as well. A man named was the er principal of that er of the woodwork and metal, I think there were two teachers there two instructors if you'd like to call them that. [speaker003:] And what [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] what would you do in this sort of would you make things that you could take home? [speaker002:] Oh we'd make things, make things, that's right, yes, instruction. They taught you how to to saw a piece of wood and how to make a joint, a dovetail joint or a mortice and joint. Er I think I, the height of my erm efforts there was I made a needle box, a needlework box, with all the partitions in and we French polished it and all this sort of thing. And I also made a couple of erm copper ashtrays and and and beat them. And we also did a bit of leather work to, where we used to hammer the the leather and put colours on to it to make purses and that sort of thing. These are things they don't do at school today do they? Not much of them anyway. Not in that class of school. [speaker003:] And would these be with the with the idea of teaching you almost like a trade, you know sort? [speaker002:] No no no no no not a trade, just to make you handy. No it was just it was just so you, I mean let's face it, er my father used to mend our shoes, repair our shoes, in fact I've still got his hobbing iron now. You don't know what a hobbing iron is do you? [speaker003:] No. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [break in recording] It was cast in heavy metal and er it had er sort of a a sole on one e part of it, and a heel on the other part, and then there was a small children's sole. And er you sort of pull the shoe over the sole and er then hit, my father would sort of shape a piece of leather around the sole of the shoe and then er he would sort of tacks that went through, the hobbing iron which was iron of cours tacks that went through, the hobbing iron which was iron of course would bend them over inside your shoe, just like a normal cobbler repairs shoe. Then he'd have a, then when he'd done that he'd have a erm, oh I think they used to call it a a wax ball, er to rub round the end of the sole and have a an iron that he would rub this wax into the seam between your your your shoe itself and the leather to seal that off and make it waterproof. And it all our shoes were repaired on the backyard, like that er he had no shed ad there was no outbuildings were we lived at anyway, and er he'd always sit in the summertime in the backyard repairing shoes. [speaker003:] Where wold he get the material for? [speaker002:] He'd buy that from a cobbler's shop, from a shoe repairer's shop. Erm of which were there were many in those days er, not so many today of course but er er ooh I should say there were probably on Vale which was our nearest sort of shopping area to where we lived, there were probably two or three erm shoe repairers, including, and you could go and buy leather there. Get a a small piece, you could buy a I think it was called a side of leather or a whole piece of leather and cut yourselves out of it.And erm leather wasn't cheap even in those days, it varied in thickness. In ladies' shoes it was a thinner leather and the men's shoes it was a thicker leather. That's another thing they used to do in those days they never do now, a lot of men when they bought a pair of boots, they had them what they called plumped. And they'd buy a brand new pair of boots and take them straight round to the shoe repairer and have an extra sole put on, from brand new to make them last longer. You'd see men walking round on their shoes about an inch thick, you see. And the the moment that that sort of sole had worn off that the shoe repairer had put on it wasn't allowed to go any further than that, it was taken off and another one put on. Consequently their sh their their boots lasted them almost a lifetime. And er on your, on the better shoe, like you what we call, might call a Sunday shoe, you'd have a a rubber heel put on, I don't mean just a a complete heel but a round disc that was screwed on to your heel, if I can explain that to you. It's like a a rou round disc that screwed on and as that wore at the back you used to just slacken the screw slightly and turn it round until a little bit more of it wore and then you turn it round again until the whole thing was worn down. Then you replaced that, that was saving your heels. This was for economy's sake you see, you couldn't afford to buy shoes like people buy them now and just throw them away. Er a pair of shoes if you bought it had to last you a long long time. And these were the things that did [speaker003:] And the only time you would get a new pair was if the top part of the shoe [speaker002:] That's right, if the sho if the top part of the shoe went that was the only you got a new pair or if or if it burst around the sole and the seam. Er there was there was a erm a stud that was called a. Er that was the name of the manufacturer an you used to buy them on cards, they were all sizes and the big one you used to put onto the tips of your your er soles just in on the tips, to save the front of the shoe. And the er if you didn't have your rubber soles which er a lot of people didn't really like, I think most people thought they were a bit effeminate, most men did anyway, and they used to have these little metal tips put on, you see, or a metal sort of cross section across the heel, that was to save your your shoes again. [speaker003:] Would would women's shoes have the metal soles? [speaker002:] Oh yes, women, yes they'd have little tips, little put on, but theirs were little tiny ones. Erm we boys, my father used to s what we call stud our shoes, and they were round sort of metal studs, and these were sort of knocked into your soles to save the leather. This was innovation all the time just for economy's sake, you you as I say you you just couldn't afford, although you could buy er a beautiful pair of shoes for twelve and six, that was a lot of money. [speaker003:] Where would where would your parents buy your clothes? Would you go into the city to buy? [speaker002:] Oh no, no, no, no, local shops, local shops. I don't think I ever I have ever anything out of the city at all. Er th the main shopping area for us when we li well it was when we, for both places, was. Well Main Street catered for almost everything. There was everything that you particularly could want from a grand piano to a pin sold in Main Street. I mean there were erm draper's stores, there were furniture stores, there were all the butcher's shops, grocer's shops, greengrocer's shops, chemist's shops, ladies' outfitters, hatters, tripe shops, er seed merchants, er bakers, millers, erm I can't say there were wallpaper sop shops and paint shops as such because there wasn't such a thing as a wallpaper shop specializing it usually went to the hardware shop for wallpaper and paint. And paint wasn't as you know it today, there were perhaps three colours in paints, green, brown and cream. Everyone's house, and that's another thing, if you wanted to paint as your house inside, the cupboards and the doors, they were painted brown and that was a lifetime's job, they were never done again, not like you do now with this freshening up of paint every so often. Er wallpapering erm you invariably did that yourself or there were there were paperhangers and decorators about. Erm if I remember correctly the pre-War price for hanging a wall up, a roll of wallpaper was about sixpence a roll, and that included preparing as well. And if you wanted ten rolls of wallpaper they'd paper your room for five shillings. In fact I have a bill somewhere where the next door to me at at the shop on Street was papered from top to bottom and the total bill for the paper and labour I think is under three pounds and that included el e e e eleven rolls for a staircase. [speaker003:] So most rooms were papered you didn't leave the walls just painted? [speaker002:] Oh no no no, there was no such, there was there was distemper as it was called, er not like emulsion is today, there was this distemper that was called but er oh no that was that was for the pigsty the distemper was, whitewash. People used to whitewash their ceilings. Erm with whitewash not with er emulsion, that was too expensive, they'd buy a packet of a packet of which would make so many gallons of whitewash and you'd whitewash the ceiling. But er if you had to paper the parlour was always papered in the ceiling but he kitchen was always whitewashed because we had these, if I explain to you these er fireplaces that er weren't very successful burning coal you know and the smoke would rise and before you knew where you were the ceiling was black again so sort of every so often up went the whitewash brush and you'd whitewash the the ceiling. But erm the paintwork was always, inside a house was always brown, like this is, as you can see it's woodwork, it was it was a colour like a chocolaty brown. And er I never remember er my parents painting anything in the house at all. I don't think my father would've known how to use a paint brush anyway. You know what I mean i i it wasn't done, wasn't done. Th th when the house was built it was painted and I think that used to last it's lifetime. Mind you it was paint then it wasn't like it is today, it was sort of good lead paint was put on, and it did last. And that's another thing I mean where erm as I got I mean cleaning was sort of a a spring clean was springtime and that was it. You had a turn out then and I think it lasted till the next spring, not like taking curtains up and down like people do now and hoover for the carpets, course the carpet would be taken out and beaten as you as you know, they weren't they were slung onto a line and beaten with anything that was handy. There was no such thing as a vacuum cleaners or anything like that you know.And er er that's just how it went on. It was an amazing thing really when I when I look back and think about the decoration side of it because, those fireplaces were had to be seen to be believed because they were, if the wind was in the wrong, you we, the room was full of smoke. And the kitchen was just through there and er my mother when she used to bake and cook er the blue smoke would be everywhere and er it must have been terrible when you think about it you know, terrible, it must've been. But er they they managed, they managed, they coped. [speaker003:] Just going, you were talking about [cough] decorations, with going back to the school, we were talking previously about school, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] h what were your, can you remember [speaker002:] [cough] excuse me. [speaker003:] what the classrooms were like? How were they [speaker002:] Oh very vividly. Erm now the the it was it was a it was a mixed school but the girls were all on the, it wasn't a mixed school in the sense of the word there was mixed in classes. There was the the boys section, the girls section, and the juvenile section. Now the juvenile section was on one side of the yard, the school yard. And there was this long building on the er the other side of the er yard. Now the down floor or or the ground floor er th was the girls, and the assembly hall, the big assembly hall, and the boys classrooms were above the girls, you went upstairs, you see onto one wing. And there was a very long corridor with a mo what must have been I should think five, there was no sixth form, so there'd be five classes, five classrooms off this long the hallway perhaps as wide as this room which is what thirteen feet. And er the classrooms were off this with sort of wooden petitions and glass, in the door. And erm the er the first class was right at the very far end of the corridor. That's where you graduated from the junior class as a boy, you'd move up to that first class on this er this long corridor. And each year you moved up whether you were good, bad or indifferent you moved up one class, you see. You were you never stayed in the same class two years. Erm you you came up this that's right class one and then class two, and then class three, class four, class five, that's right, right to the very end. And the headmaster's room was at the very end of that corridor where the fifth class was. Er and we called er his name it was a Mr, we always called him Gaffer, it was never Mr, it was the Gaffer was the headmaster. And er he used to pop in and occasionally take the fifth class, whether it was because it was near to his office I don't know. But erm that was your final one and er that was run by a Mr, I remember Mr because he was also the sports master as well. [speaker003:] So each class had mixed ability groups mixed ability [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes yes, oh yes, it was just d if you was if you was behind then it was just too bad. Because erm even going back to those days it was the bright ones that were pushed forward and the the sort of dog take the hinder most sort of thing you know. And erm I think I was in the middle somewhere, I wasn't er brilliant but I must have been somewhere in the middle I suppose. I I can't complain, I had a reasonable education there, as to what was available, as to what was available. But erm it was good, the school life was very, very very good because the teachers, they were they were excellent men when I look back and think about it, they really were. And er what I see of the modern teacher I'm probably looking out with three different eyes, they don't seem to come up to the same standing as those men were, at all because one thing that I I remember very vividly about them all, and they were family men, what I call family men. And er I don't know they seemed to be sort of more worldly wide in many respects. Probably weren't I don't know but they seemed to us I may be looking at it from a child's eyes but er that's how they seemed to be to me. I mean er I remember one year we had to we was asked to write an essay or a composition as it was called then, not essay, composition. As to what we were going to do in our school holidays, and if I don't, let's see, the teacher was named, it's be the fourth class, and er two of us decided we were going to, and this was before the days of hiking as such, we decided we were going to go hiking. We didn't call ti hiking we were going on a walk. And we described what we were going to do on this walk and where we were going to go and both sort of referred to the same composition and there was a prize for the for the one that was judged the best. Anyway this boy and I was judged to be the most original and the best you see. And er the prize was a erm a trip into the with a teacher, on his motorbike and sidecar, he'd got a motorbike and sidecar. And er he he wen he took along on this jaunt right out to, into the, he showed us the erm major oak, I can remember it very well. And he came, when we came back again, he brought us along the erm main road back and er and er he we visited er Bridge. Now this was the old wooden toll bridge, before the new bridge was built, I remember that being built in nineteen twenty eight. And erm this was the first time that I'd ever been sort of as far afield into the country as this, and to go and see the erm er Toll Bridge at, that was, and top go over it, because it was a long wooden bridge that used to go over, and er we thought that was absolutely fantastic. That was our prize for writing an essay, but he was a human being, this this teacher, he seemed to be so friendly towards us, you know. Although erm on the other hand I'd plenty of strap, what we call strap you know. [speaker003:] Was what form of discipline? [speaker002:] Yes, oh yes. The cane, cane and strap you used to have, the teacher used to give us the strap, the headmaster used to give us the cane. Erm [speaker003:] What was the strap, can you describe? [speaker002:] Oh yes, it was a leather er erm a piece of leather with three tongs on it and a handle to it, and er you used to have this strap on your hand. Not your body at all. And er er it varied from one stroke on one hand for a certain thing or one on each hand, up to I've had as many as six strokes of the strap. [speaker003:] What what would you have done wrong to get say one strap? [speaker002:] One strap? Erm talking. Persistent talking you would get two. In fact I had it six for talking in class, I remember very vividly having six strokes of the strap on my hand. [speaker003:] So [speaker002:] Oh we used to shake our hands, we didn't use to go home complaining. We didn't report them to the authorities, or anything like, we knew we'd we'd earned them. I had strap many times, I remember once, on my desk, in my desk, they were lift up desks at the time, and it it and it was teacher was a grand fellow, and I got under my desk, underneath my desk, written underneath it, erm God helps them that helps themselves, but God help them that I catch in this desk. And of course we used to have desk infect inspections, of course we used to take that down before a desk inspection you see, this we had a surprise inspection and lifted it up and saw this and read it out, read it, Right, he said, And we'll go God's going to help you do something else, come out. And I had three strokes on each hand for that. [speaker003:] So he'd hit you in front of the class? [speaker002:] Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes, we used to get punishment in front of class. Now anything really deadly serious that took place then you taken to the headmaster's room and he dealt with it. [speaker003:] What were these serious [speaker002:] Cane. With a cane. Now being late, the headmaster always dealt with you fro being late, that wasn't a teacher's responsibility at all.You used to have to line up all those boys that were late, you used to have to line up outside the the headmaster's room, one at a time, I I jus [LAUGHTER] on each hand, you used to have a cane on each hand. Never on your backside like you see in the films, that sort of thing, always on your hands, never anywhere else, never got hit your body. Erm [speaker003:] After you'd had this erm punishment ere you expected to go back to your lessons straight away, how long did it hurt, did your hands [speaker002:] Immediately, of course it hurt. Your hands were red, you used to shake them, and go back straight back to your work. And I never remember any boy ever cry.... You didn't cry, nobody showed it like that. And er I think in the junior school, it was in the juniors you didn't get punishment there as children in the first school, you stood in a corner, that was your punishment. Like I I see it done today I think that sort of thing, you used to stand in a corner. But erm oh no we we er we we took it and and that was it, you accepted it. Accepted it. And er another thing that we never did in those school er very very very rarely did a boy erm oh what did we use to call it? When he he he evaded going to school, play truant. He he very rarely played truant a boy didn't it's er in fact I er I don't think I ever did, to my knowledge played truant at all during school. It was a very very rare occasion, er you had to be ill to be off school. [speaker003:] You never thought of just taking the day off? [speaker002:] No no no no no no no never. Never even even your last day at school you you didn't take it off. You were there. [speaker003:] Why do you think that was? [speaker002:] Well I think it was the discipline that you'd got in those days. It just wasn't done. Er school days were school days. You went to school at nine o'clock, you came home at twelve, you went back at two and you came home at half past four. And erm we never thought about playing, I suppose there were odd boys that did this sort of thing but er they were very very rare, very rare. In fact you you the classroom was always full, there were no spare seats at desks or anything like that, and if one was empty you knew something was really radically wrong. Er I think one of the greatest er causes of s absenteeism, it wasn't so much ill health er not on the part of the pupil, I think it was more er if something was wrong within th family, particularly if you was an elder daughter or an elder boy, you see and erm, if your mother was ill or or confined you see, you were probably kept at home er for those sort of reasons to either look after the the younger children at home or to help to to look after home. I mean there was no such things as home helps and and that sort of thing in those days, it was a case of of doing it yourself. And I think where where youngsters were away from school that was a greater reason for them to be at home, to look after home, whilst their parents were ill or if probably one of the other kids were off ill or something like that you see, because in most families there was what three and four children. I mean ours was a comparably small family with two. And erm as I told you before we had, I had two aunts with eleven each. And erm I should say the average family was around about four, four mark, four and five children mark. [speaker003:] So what, elder children had res had quite a bit of responsibility? [speaker002:] Oh very much so, very much so. Very much so. Very much so. [cough] In fact my own wife, she came of a big family and and she had to look after most of the the younger children until they started work you see and then it was the next one that had to look after them again you see and so on, and that's how it went on. But erm er the school days I think were were really the best days of our lives, but they we were the happiest days anyway because I enjoyed them and most kids enjoyed school in those days, not like it is today. And er we had some marvellous school parties. Erm when I say parties that's probably not the right word because erm party indicates sort of food and games, we had concerts and we used to put on these concerts, the pupils used to put them on ourselves and our parents were invited to come and watch these concerts. [speaker003:] What at Christmas time? [speaker002:] No no no, that was a special one. Er the Christmas party, that was always a special party. The whole of the school would join in that, boys and girls were together, they were se segregated in the hall you didn't sit next to a girl or anything like that, the boys were on one side, the girls were on the other side. But the the Christmas party was something out of this world. You used to have to take a er a erm your own cup and erm that was for your for for whatever we had we I don't know I remember we had lemonade or pop or whether it was tea or we had er we had to take a cup, and er most of us invariably took a a big handkerchief with us. [LAUGHTER] Now you might ask what the big handkerchief was for. [] And I assure you it wasn't to wipe your nose, it was to bring home any surplus cakes, that were left on the table. And you were you were invited to take those home and they used to say, Put them into your big handkerchief and wrap them up. Erm either for the younger children that were at home or your parents to eat. And er nearly every boy used to take a handkerchief along with him to the, that was to the Christmas party because that was the only party you had a meal at school. And er as I say we had a concert after this but th th I can't remember whether they were professionals or whether any good amateur people. But we had some fantastic concerts, we had a stage at the end of the assembly hall, and they used to put on this erm concert for us, singing, dancing and the piano, I remember that very well, the piano. And er it would you would have tea at about er half past three, and probably the concert'd start at about half past, about five o'clock, half past. And we should come away about sort of seven o'clock in the evening, it didn't go on till late at night, you know, like some of them do now. [speaker003:] You'd go with your parents? [speaker002:] No, no, on your own, no no your parents weren't allowed to that one, that was that was children's party. That was a it was a party. And er the trestles and the tables were all laid down the assembly hall and then we had a er er after the erm when you had your your meal, which consisted of sandwiches and cake, that was all. It wasn't a knife and fork effort at all. And er we'd have to clear all those away, and the chairs would be put into rows as I say, the boys' d sit down one side, the girls would sit down the other. And the junior school would sit on the floor in the front and that's how it used to be arranged. That was every Christmas there was a party of some sort put on for us at school. But erm Mr was, he was the headmaster, he was another great character, a great fellow, he was a very big, he was a tall man, about, well over six foot high. I mean I can't remember really but I should say he'd probably be about six foot two or three. He always used to wear a bowler hat and very dark clothes. And er he'd only got to sort of look at you and er that was it. With him. But the discipline was at school w it was when I look back it was marvellous, we we were never really bad lads. We got up to mischief obviously like a lot more, youngsters do even today, but er there was none of this sort of vandalism, we didn't use to destroy anything. Erm if we broke a window it was accidental. I mean I walk around the town and I see a factory or a shop or a house, it only got to be empty about a week and all the windows are smashed. We did nothing like that. We broke windows accidentally, we were throwing erm in fact I was only talking about whip and top the other day, and erm er which was a a game we used to play. And there was the erm there was a top called the window breaker, and it was a special top that had got a long stem on it and a big round like a mushroom, it was like a mushroom almost. And erm these things used to used to sort of wind the r the the the spring or the leather thong around th top and start it off to spinning you know and then you'd keep whipping it like that and you could make these things jump into the air, in fact a friend of mine was telling me, we were talking about it the other day. He said, He saw one boy hit one of these tops and it went straight over a house top. So high. Now these things used to break windows obviously, you can imagine it can't you? And that's why they were called a window breaker these tops. And it you broke a window you had to pay for it. Or your parents did. There was none of this running away and, I haven't done it, and this that and the other. You had to accept the responsibility if you broke the window and your parents used to settle up for you. You got a good hiding for it but but that was it. You you you used to break windows but it wasn't done like you see now people, kids s picking up bricks and just breaking a window for the sheer delight of it. And that wasn't done. Erm but erm we we've gone through the games haven't we the marbles and that sort of thing we we played that [speaker003:] Can I talk about your erm school holidays, what [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker003:] say the summer holiday what what would you as children have done in [speaker002:] That [speaker003:] your school holiday? [speaker002:] Well Easter er and er Whitsuntide wasn't a holiday, Easter was a holiday. Now Easter was taken up with the sort of playing in the streets virtually. Er whip and top and marbles and all those sort of things we used to do. Come the summer holiday which was August Bank holiday, for this I think we were away from school a month. Now er first few days you'd be feeling your feet of course, you'd be playing all sorts of things, you know being free, er in the street, and all this sort of thing. And erm er where we lived it was adjacent to what I call Well. Now as a as it as it's pronounced there, is the town, but this was called Well. Now this was a li a piece of common land adjacent to Cottages, which was on the sort of the north side of. And er there was a a sort of a a cliff, a sandstone cliff, and er out of this cliff side [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right we're ready to start. Erm how long have you lived in the flats? [speaker002:] Er two year. [speaker003:] Two years you've lived in the flats? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So so've you and your girlfriend and daughter came in moved into f into the flats two years ago. Erm where did you live before? [speaker002:] Er down at Farm,. [speaker003:] Mhm. So did you actually decide you wanted to come to the flats, was it was it a decision [speaker002:] No, what actually happened was er, we was at with her mum [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And then we had er our daughter [noise background] and so the house was a bit packed cos her mum's got a lot of kids [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So we asked council if they could get us a place and... they offered us a flat at first over the other side, I don't know what walk it was on, and they says, You can stay there until we get an house for you. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Cos there weren't supposed to be moving people into the flats with kids, you know with them falling down stairs and things like that. And then that one fell through because they hadn't done the repairs on, so they gen us this flat. And so we moved into it and then we've been here ever since. [speaker003:] Mhm. Did you did you originally when you actually erm applied to get a council place did you did you s did you want to move to the flats here or did you apply for put other [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] names down. [speaker002:] No, we didn't want to move to the flats. We we wanted somewhere round the area, or Valley, but we didn't want to come to the flats, no way. [speaker003:] But it was a case of suits it's a case of actually it was here where it was easy to get a flat than places anywhere else, it was a case of less waiting [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] time. [speaker002:] The case was that her mum's house was overcrowded. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So we had to get out anyway, and [speaker003:] And it [speaker002:] the sooner the better. But actually it was worse [LAUGHTER] coming here. [speaker003:] Mhm. So erm how old how old are you and your girlfriend? Are you both? [speaker002:] I'm twenty five, she's twenty. Daughter's two. [speaker003:] Daughter's two.... Erm terms of living in, you've lived here, obviously where you lived before, how does it compare? How do you find it living in the flats compared with anywhere else you've lived? [speaker002:] Er bad. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah, in what ways? [speaker002:] Bad. Er well compared with erm and Valley, there's more violence round the flats, more litter, there's more everything really, you know. More trouble and everything.... You see at at you can walk around, go in a pub, have a drink, come out and nobody'll say anything to you, there's no trouble round there. I know they've got a bit of crime rate with burglaries but it's not actual violence round, and round Valley you can do the same, go in a pub and come out, and er no one 'll say nothing. But round here you could just walk er to the shop and get mugged or you know your girlfriend could get raped, kids can get assaulted, anything. So i it's a bad area. It's a no go no go area. [speaker003:] Do you ever do you ever go out to the to pubs round here? [speaker002:] Yeah but I always, we always go out with her family. There's al, it's like next Friday we're all planning to go out but there'll be fifteen of us, see we all go out in a big group. [speaker003:] So you go, I mean round here is that? [speaker002:] Yeah, well we're starting off round first, we have a drink in [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So you know we've got enough courage to come down this end. Even though I live down here, you know, but I don't go out. I never go out on me own. [speaker003:] Mhm, so do you fi, yeah, do your family often come down here? [speaker002:] No, this this' ll be the first time they've come down here in about three or four month. [speaker003:] Yeah, whereas, whereas it would be [speaker002:] Like it's her mum's birthday. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] She likes to go to the nightclub er across the road from the, at the bottom of Road it is. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] She always likes to go there when it's birthdays and things like that, special occasions. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's the only time we come down. [speaker003:] Mhm. But they wouldn't they don't come down normally to? [speaker002:] No. They'd never come down. [speaker003:] And is that cos of the [speaker002:] That's cos of all the trouble round this area. [speaker003:] Any worries of that to come down [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] they they might be at risk. Yeah. So have you ever, in terms of the crime, have you ever been affected by it in any way [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] in person? You know or anyone in your family? Yeah? [speaker002:] No not really. We've only had one bit of trouble once, and that was when we first moved on. There's some people at the flat out there and they used to bricks at the windows and things like that. Still got an hole here, that was just with a pellet gun that was. [speaker003:] How long di how long ago did that happen? [speaker002:] That was when we first moved in. [speaker003:] That was when you first moved in? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Never bothered repairing it cos it's a waste of time. It's gonna get [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Do you know when you actually go out does it actually, you know cos it used, you said in terms of, does it actually worry you going out, do you actually f think there's a risk? [speaker002:] Yeah, when I go to the shop, I either take the wooden rolling pin or a knife. [speaker003:] You do, is it cos that's [speaker002:] yeah. And that's just over to the shop there, just over the at the other side of the road. I always take some sort of you know defensive thing. [speaker003:] And did you ever do so when you lived elsewhere, di you ever feel you, the need to [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] o, so it's [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] just since you've been living here? [speaker002:] It's just here, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] yeah.... [speaker003:] Erm in ter in terms of the erm crime why do why do you think that there is so much crime here? [speaker002:] Well I think it's er an area that's most of the people are unemployed for a start [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and there's no facilities for kids, you know young kids ranging up to the age of er about sixteen seventeen. I mean there's not many discos round here what you can see for kids. I know they've got a community centre but that don't you know have everything for people. Nowadays there's varied taste isn't there? Er I mean some people like reggae music, some people like body popping and things like this, there's all different taste. So [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the council have got to try and cater for every one. Cos it's gonna be a [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker002:] community. [speaker003:] Is it that encou, do you think that encourages people to get in trouble, the fact that there's so little [speaker002:] Yeah, I suppose it does in a way. I mean cos [speaker003:] That, yeah. [speaker002:] the the flats is er a a no go area sort of thing and a kid'll come along and spray summat on a wall and next day three kids' ll come along and spray things on the wall, so that you've got more and more graffiti going all over the place, more and more rubbish, more and more people coming to the flats just to get into trouble. [speaker003:] Mhm. How do you fell as a person that in here do you feel any diff, as a person sort of living here compared to with erm... with your prev [speaker002:] No, I just feel more frightened, that's all. [speaker003:] Feel more frightened? [speaker002:] Cos you never know if someone's gonna bust your door in one night and raid your house or anything like that. I mean you could be laying in bed, which are downstairs, and someone could throw summat through a window. Which is. [speaker003:] So do you any kind of precaution to actua against that kind of thing happening? [speaker002:] Well I've fitted extra chain locks on the door, and extra locks on me door downstairs. I'm not so bothered about the windows so much cos if they break someone's bound to hear them smash. I don't know if they'd be bothered, but they'd hear [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] them. [speaker003:] In terms of facilities you you've got a young daughter, what about, what are the facilities like round here in terms of erm I mean. [speaker002:] I haven't seen any anyway. [speaker003:] Nothing at all? [speaker002:] Nothing. I suppose if there was I wouldn't take her anyway, not not round this area. See at I can just let her go and play out on the park, or at anything, you know with the other kids, but round here you can't. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Cos you never know if they're gonna get into trouble with other people, or whether they're gonna get er sexually assaulted or raped or mugged or owt. In streets you can never tell round here. [speaker003:] So what do you, if had er, in terms of, how do you feel about bringing up children round here, what do you what do you feel about that, bringing up? [speaker002:] I wouldn't, I'd have [speaker003:] You wouldn't. [speaker002:] to move. [speaker003:] you've said it's that [speaker002:] If if my daughter was say seven or eight now she wouldn't be attending any of the schools round here cos I wouldn't let her. No chance. [speaker003:] Mm, so what kind of damage do you think you could do if if you say you wouldn't let them, so what ma what makes you feel that way? [speaker002:] Well it's just that the fact that there's more muggings and things going round this area than any other part of. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean there's proof there cos five just in four days. [speaker003:] Because that's a list he's, of erm, he's showing there of crimes that have been committed in this area er since [speaker002:] That's just within a week. [speaker003:] In the last week, yeah. [speaker002:] I mean there's five robberies there and er assault on a five year old kid. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And you can't bring people up in that environment anyway. [speaker003:] Mhm. Yeah, how do f, in terms of the police, I mean how do, what kind of work do they do in d in response to the crime? [speaker002:] Well I don't know cos I've never actually seen any police in these flats. [speaker003:] Yeah so do they do they walk around at all or? [speaker002:] I've never seen them walk round the flats, I've seen the odd one or two with the security guards, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but then there's about four or five of them then. They never come round on their own, and you you see them in the daytime, you know probably one or twice a week. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But at night-time you never see them at all. [speaker003:] Yeah and what do they do, I mean do they s [speaker002:] They just walk round, they don't do nothing, they'll probably just walk up this and then c come out the other end and go back to the police station. And they never actually see them walk round where the all the empty flats are as well. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And some people that's where you'll probably get mugged anyway, if you're safe from well from one road cutting through the flats where all the empty flats are that is the point where they'd probably get mugged and assaulted and raped and God knows what. [speaker003:] Mhm. And i in terms of, you know in terms of the image that Green's got, the flats, do you, can you remember before you came into here you you knew you had, obviously had a cer the area had a certain image, do you think that image is fair or not? [speaker002:] No I think it's worse. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Think it's worse than the... [speaker002:] I think it's a lot worse. [speaker003:] A lot worse than you expected? [speaker002:] Yeah. I mean when I when I first heard about Green flats, I thought, Well it can't be that bad you know. you know just cos there's a few fights and drunks down there, I thought it can't be that bad. And when I come here and I lived here for a few year and then really saw what it was like, I thought, God, never again. No way am I living in another flat, no chance. I mean my parents won't visit me cos I living here. So I have to go up and visit them, but her parents never come down here, only once in a blue moon when they feel like it. So we're losing out as, you know we're losing out all the time. No one that no one 'll visit you. So you have to keep spending your money to go and visit them. And yet you know you think families' d stick together in this day and age. You know like if you go and visit them sometimes they come down and visit you, but they don't. Cos they're frightened of coming down here. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] My dad he he usually goes to a pub er it is on I think it's Road but instead of coming this way he goes all the way into town up the other end, you know past the Hotel, he lives at [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Valley. And he goes all the way down that end and round. Right down past the big dole office in town, up that way, and then that way, instead of coming through Green. [speaker003:] Just to avoid Green? [speaker002:] Just to avoid it. [speaker003:] So how do you so how do you feel of the fact the fact that the flats are coming down shortly, how do you feel about that? [speaker002:] Relieved. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] You feel relieved? [speaker002:] Yeah.... Cos I know that once the flats are down it's bound to be a better area but ten again it'll probably shove trouble to another area, say like. Or Fields, it'll just shoving trouble at somewhere else. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You know when they pull the flats down they should say, Right, we'll put fifty families in, fifty families in, fifty families at, you know what I mean, to to split all the people what's in the flats up into different areas cos most of the people in the flats, you know they all stick together sort of thing. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And if if a certain family gets stuck in with another family and they're both trouble causers and they both get moved to the same area it's gonna cause trouble in that area so they ought to say, Right fifty there, fifty there, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know. Split them up that way. [speaker003:] How do you find the actual, what do you f do you think of the actual flat itself, leaving out the problems that outside that you've, in terms of crime you've referred to, what do you think of the actual flat itself? [speaker002:] Rubbish. [speaker003:] Rubbish? Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm [speaker002:] I mean the front room's a a long, you can't put your furniture how you really want it you see cos you've got a bit sticking out there and then you've got this big sticking out here. I I mean if these petitions weren't in it'd just be a square room. And then you've got the stairs which haven't got no door on, so the kids can fall down the stairs. And then the bedrooms are cold and damp. You've got a lot of damp in these houses. And big draughts coming under the doors. I can't complain about the windows cos o you know, I haven't had no draughts really but then you get parasites you know like fleas and bugs coming through these ventilations. [speaker003:] And is that, does that, is that ma, is that a major problem, has that been through since [speaker002:] I've I've no idea if it's a major problem or not. But every every time we put our heating on you can guarantee you always get fleas,... so we we d we don't have the heating on no more, we just leave it off. I don't know where they come from, they're breeding. [speaker003:] Do you leave it off even though you're paying, you'll be paying won't you for the heating and it's [speaker002:] Yeah but you st no you you we pay er twelve pound fifty four a fortnight, [speaker003:] That's for that's for heating, yeah. [speaker002:] That's for the heating, whether we use it or not. [speaker003:] So therefore you're a you're actually [speaker002:] So you're still losing out [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] anyway. I think they should've had meters on the heating or summat. [speaker003:] Mhm. So you're paying for he you're paying for the [speaker002:] Yeah. We're paying for the heating. [speaker003:] heating and yet you're finding that because of the fleas that you you don't want to put it on so you're los [speaker002:] Yeah, we can't put the heating on. [speaker003:] you're losing out, yeah. [speaker002:] Mind it's pretty warm anyway without the heating on really. But when you want to heat the bedrooms up you can't, unless you only have it on for a bit you know. And then you have to keep, see in one bedroom we've got a, you've got a ventilator [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and that's where the back door is, in the other bedroom you've got a ventilator you know but it's not actually facing into the bedroom, it's facing outwards towards the bathroom, you know and the stairs [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] so you're not getting no heating there, in that bedroom at all. cos there isn't no ventilator in it, and that's the one we sleep in cos we're frightened of people coming through the back door in the night, you know kicking in the back door, so we sleep in the other room. And our our the baby she sleeps in bed with us, you know cos we're frightened in case owt gets bunged through the window, you know it might hit her, so we put her in bed with us. [speaker003:] To in order to protect her. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] See, she's got a single bed down there but we don't let her sleep in it just she's stopping in bed with us, cos no way am you know we might be sleeping here, petrol bomb might come through your window on a night when there's a riot on. You know it might land on her her bed, see if it landed on our bed at least you can chuck the blankets off and protect her and take her out of the room, but when she's in her own bedroom in a single bed you can't, you can't do things like that. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you does she ever does she ever play out at all or? [speaker002:] No. We never let her out, the only time she goes out is when I take her to the shop. And when we go visiting her mum and my mum, that's the only time she goes out. [speaker003:] Mhm, going back to the actual erm house itself, you ever had, do you, have you had any problems with repairs at all or have you found them okay when ever you've had any. Have there been minor things that have gone wrong? [speaker002:] things that are a bit, the repairs have been alright really. [speaker003:] Yeah. Have you ever had to, have you ever had to actually, have you had any major things that have gone wrong in the house or had it been okay? [speaker002:] No, the only thing what went wrong really was er a woman but that was in the top flat. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] She had a bust pipe and it all kept dripping through our ceiling. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know and it even went through to the next floor you know into the bedroom like. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But they repaired it. It took them what she reported it as soon as the office opened and they'd done it at about ten twelve time. It took a long time for the plumber to come round but at least it was done, you know that day. So I haven't no quarrels with about the repairs. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And they come round and sweep up outside or you know near enough every day. So repairs and in general 's alright. [speaker003:] Since you since you came into the flats have you have you been working at all or have have you been erm [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] unemployed, yeah. [speaker002:] I've been unemployed. [speaker003:] Do you think, yeah. [speaker002:] There's another problem is, say if you want to order a catalogue [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] from a you know a mail firm, you can never get one. [speaker003:] You can't? [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] So you've tried that have you tried that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] We've tried loads. We've ever tried renting the television. [speaker003:] You can't [speaker002:] You know a colour television, cos you know we've only got that one. But you can't, it's just impossible, cos you live in the ar, you know Green, you're like a second class citizen, you know. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker002:] You're classed, you're classed as a reject sort of thing cos you're living in these flats. [speaker003:] Is that by er do you, is that just, is that with rental firms or is that, do you think that's general, full stop? [speaker002:] I think it's in general. You know just cos, it's just cos it's a bad area, that's that's all it is. It's not I mean when someone calls [speaker003:] Do they tell you [speaker002:] Green a bad area, it's not the whole of Green, it's just the flats. Cos this is where most of the trouble comes from, when the riots are on, there's people come out of the flats to join the riots. You know most of the people what was in the riots come from the flats. [cough] And what happened then do you know? All the shops was boarded up and everything. So I think th the flats is the main problem round the Green area [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] anyway. [speaker003:] So when you said about a second rate citizen yeah? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Is that are you saying that you fee you feel living here that as a second rate citizen or you think other people see you [speaker002:] I think other people see you as a second class citizen. You know cos, it you was living at [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Like her mum, she's sent off for a cat catalogue, she got it, you know within thirteen days I think it was. But she got it. And she could order from it [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and get things from it. And her sister who lives next door but one from her mums, she done the same thing. So we've had to get things out of her sister's catalogue if we want them. Cos the mail order round here you can't get one. You just can't get one. I've tried it, just about every s catalogue there is, near enough. [speaker003:] And they've just said, and and they've said no they're not giving you a reason or [speaker002:] They they just reject it, you know they just say no. Sometimes we don't even get a letter back. [speaker003:] And with with when you s said in terms of renting a T V, what's happened with them when you tried? [speaker002:] Well I went down to a rental firm, you know [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] in town, and I gave them me name and me address, and then they sent a letter saying, No, you can't have one. So I went down and said, Well why I can't have one? And they says, Well a person who lived in your flat before you had a telly, you know and they gave me some excuse, you know that the the the person who lived in here before me had ripped them off and they says, How do we know that you're not that person, you know things like that. So I tried another one and they says, We can't give you one cos it's a bad address. So [speaker003:] So they said it's a bad address. [speaker002:] Yeah, so that means that people who've been living here before has has been ripping catalogues off and things like that. Cos I I as soon as I moved here I wanted a catalogue and a telly. Cos I never had one anyway. You know cos we was more or less forced to move into the flat, erm under the circumstances, but we just heard no can't have one. Bad address, bad area, bad everything. [speaker003:] Do you use, in ter in terms of going onto erm local shops, do you use those at all? [speaker002:] No I usually shop at myself, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but if I find I want little bits an bobs what I need I just pop over the road. [speaker003:] Is that, why is it that, is it because you don't think the, why is it you don't use the local shops, is it because erm you you prefer to go elsewhere? [speaker002:] Well I I go to cos it's it's cheaper anyway. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And... we we go in car shopping and we always get our s shopping from, you know with it being cheap, and we go in her brother's car, and so we don't have to carry it back all the way from, but round here you see you'd have to go out, you'd have to take the kid with you, and your girlfriend, and then you've got to come back with all the shopping and your kids as well. So [speaker003:] So it's more convenient for you. Yeah. [speaker002:] It's just more convenient, that's all.... I think the shops are alright round here but... you know it's just a few of the shops are a bit, you know, funny. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] T er erm moving onto erm... the area of erm, the fact that obviously a lot of people round here have got very limited incomes. Erm... in t, how di, does that in any way affect you know the kind of things you eat or in terms of diet? Well I suppose so yeah cos when you're on supplementary benefit [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You don't get in enough money anyway really. [speaker003:] So wha [speaker002:] I think that leads to crime in s as well in a way. [speaker003:] Mhm. So getting back you know the fact that you said about a limited income so what does that... in terms of foods you buy, what kind of things do you find... do you buy actually s [speaker002:] Well I I don't I don't go out and buy biscuits. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Cos to me that is wasting money, you know we just, I just buy the essentials. You know what you need for your dinner. I never buy it of fortnightly so... I I'll go to the shop and I'll say, Right, probably seven tins of beans, seven tins of peas, er you know a few tins a few beans er tins of spaghetti and things like that you know, bits and bobs, but I'll still get a joint for me Sundays. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know for me Sunday dinner. And food a week we'll have fishfingers or beefburgers or things like that, pastas. So I have to I I sit there the week before I get the you know before I get the money, I sit there and work it all out. You know what what I'm gonna have for each meal over the [speaker003:] So that [speaker002:] And I have to sort it out, sit there, sort it out and then work out how much it's gonna come to, and then I know then when I go to the shop I know what to get, and I know when it goes in the cupboard I know that I'll have a meal for every day of the week. [cough] You know at least one big cooked meal. And I always buy a bag of potatoes, you know a big [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] bag, rather than keep buying it in, a couple of pound and a couple of pound there. Cos [speaker003:] And that lasts you? [speaker002:] That lasts me about two and half week. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] A fifty six pound bag.... Milk, we get milk tokens anyway. with being, having a kid not long ago. [speaker003:] So do you have milk delivered? [speaker002:] No I nip over to the shop and get it from near. You know you get seven bottles for a token. And you have to pay a penny for each bottle, summat like that. But in one, in another shop you see, it's twenty five pence. So I was caught with these milk tokens [LAUGHTER]. At it's two pence. [speaker003:] In ter in terms of getting milk delivered, I mean do many people get milk delivered or [speaker002:] I've never seen a milkman round here [speaker003:] Isn't? [speaker002:] I've never seen one. [cough] [speaker003:] Do you do you think you said that you're not sure whether the milkman comes round the flats. [speaker002:] No idea, I've never seen one round here. And I've been down here two year. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I've only seen an ice cream van about four times since I've been here. [speaker003:] What do you think when you actually erm... when you look ahead to erm moving out of the flats and finding somewhere else, where do you w where do you want to go to anyway? [speaker002:] Probably back round to. [speaker003:] You'd like to go back to? [speaker002:] Yeah, cos it's a better atmosphere, at least you can walk round the streets safe. [speaker003:] Have you managed to make, have you made any friends at all, in the flats? [speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] None a well I I don't associate with people in the flats. I just keep myself to myself. [speaker003:] Mhm. So why do f why do you feel that... why why is it, you said you don't associate with the people in the flats, why is that? [speaker002:] Cos I might go out one night and I might say I might meet up with a with a another white man or another you know a black man or something, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And the next thing I could be on to drugs, you know er, putting heroin in me arm, I could be doing anything. Which is stupid you know. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So I just keep myself to myself. Cos the area's got a bad name for drugs anyway. [speaker003:] In terms of drugs, yes, I mean is that, do you actually know of of erm... is it is it what you've actually seen that makes you [speaker002:] No, one of our friends she's on drugs. [speaker003:] Yeah. And [speaker002:] He he's been on everything here. [speaker003:] Yeah, how did he... does he live? [speaker002:] He's he's still on them. He lives in the flats. [speaker003:] So is it, was it, was she on dr erm drugs before he came to the flats or is it [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] since coming to the flats? [speaker002:] No, he wasn't on drugs before cos he used to live at Valley. And he was alright then. It's just since he's been in the flats. Now he's associated with the wrong sort of guys, so he's gotten on to that stuff. And when I see, I thought, No way, no way am I gonna do things like that. [speaker003:] So that's the main reason why you keep to yourself, [speaker002:] Eh? [speaker003:] you don't think, you think [speaker002:] I mean he's been round here a few times, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know and smoking his joints and things like that, but I never touch it.... I used to tell him, I used to say, You you're stupid. You're stupid taking things like that cos it ruins you. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] See he has to send his his missus out shoplifting and things, just to get money so he can buy drugs. [speaker003:] And you say that it's it's since he's co it's the since he's come [speaker002:] It's since he's been [speaker003:] here. [speaker002:] Yeah since he's been in the flats yeah. [speaker003:] Is there much in terms of drugs do you actually... are there many people in the flats who actually that are actually involved in drugs or [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Or take them, yeah. [speaker002:] Well I've seen I've seen guys walking along balconies with joints in their hands, you know smoking the joint as they're walking along. [speaker003:] As they're walking along [speaker002:] Yeah, this one here, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] just out there. [speaker003:] Just outside you see them walking through with drugs. Yeah. [speaker002:] And there's a flat over there on that walk what deals with drugs. Er there's one up one er on the next walk down. And there's another one somewhere cos my friend he used to come round here with his drugs, he used to tell me where they was you know. Probably thought that I'd go an get some but I, no way. [cough]. That's one thing I want to try and keep off. You know being round here you might be tempted to do it but that's why I just keep in me flat and out of the way. [speaker003:] What do you fee, as a person do you feel in do you feel any different living here to elsewhere? [speaker002:] Ah, I'm just more alert at night times you know. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Cos you never know what's gonna happen. So I I'm more alert, I wake up earlier. [speaker003:] You wake up earlier, yeah. [speaker002:] See at I'll wake up about eight or nine o'clock, but round here you wake up at six. Five and six in the morning, and you're always waking up in the middle of the night cos you don't know, you know, if summat's happened or summat's gonna happen. I'm always waking up in the night. Like last night I couldn't get to sleep. [speaker003:] You couldn't get to sleep [speaker002:] I didn't, I didn't get to sleep till about two o'clock. And then I woke up again, and I come upstairs to look at the clock and it was half past three. And I went back down to bed and I got up again at five, went back there then the baby wake up at seven so I come up and stayed up. [speaker003:] So that's because of erm [speaker002:] That's just cos she's tensed [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you know you don't know what's gonna happen next. You're not sure you know what's happening and what's going on. [speaker003:] So that's very different, so you feel different, very different to when you lived in? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, cos when we lived at you see you could just go to sleep and that's it you knew that nowt was gonna happen. You knew nothing was gonna happen at. Could just go to sleep and enjoy a good night's kip and wake up in the morning. And everything's [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] just the same as it was the night before, you know. But round here you could go to sleep, wake up in the morning and half the flat's have been burnt down and shops have been looted and you don't know where you are. [speaker003:] If you if any of if you have say er any problems with the people in the flats that you could actually go to would help you in any way? [speaker002:] Oh I've no idea really. [speaker003:] Is it, I mean do you know many people in the flats who you could actually rely on if you ever if you were [speaker002:] No, I don't know anybody in the flats. [speaker003:] So you so the two years you've been here you've not managed to really get to know many people. wouldn't want to know [speaker002:] I wouldn't want to know anybody anyway round here. [LAUGHTER] I mean cos if you got to know someone they might be might be muggers, or you might get in, you know et to know somebody else and they might be a big crime organization. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Never know. [cough] [speaker003:] What do, in terms of erm, terms of prostitution, is that act, is that, does that bother you or are you not bo bothered really about the fact that that goes on in the area? [speaker002:] I'm not really bothered about prostitution meself. I mean som you know I suppose they've got to make a living some how you know with the money you get off social. But the only thing that does bother me about it is when they get you know school kids coming out of school and going straight on streets on Road. You know little kids coming out of school and going straight on the road. That's the [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] only thing that bothers you, you know. [speaker003:] Mhm. So I can say that really what worries you is more the crime and the drugs much more than prostitution, as far as prostitution you're saying that basically there's a [speaker002:] Ah, no, I mean cos violence and drugs is more harmful than a load of girls, you know, doing stupid things on s street corner. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean you know drugs and violence they're the things in life what can really hurt you and damage you. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean prostitution can't hurt you, they can't damage you I don't think. [speaker003:] Mhm. You know when you actually, when you er finally when you leave here will you be... obviously the flat's coming down, you're gonna be... leaving it here [speaker002:] And they told me my flat's and go, you know I can move I'm gonna pack everything before even a house comes through. I'm gonna go round and collect everything up and pack it up. I'm just gonna leave certain things out what I need to use, till my house comes through.... [speaker003:] Do you since as soon as you've got any clue you're gonna start packing stuff up ready and [speaker002:] That's it, all the pictures are coming off the wall and everything. They're all going in boxes. [speaker003:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] I'm just gonna pack them in one bedroom and leave them there. Even if it takes four week they're stopping there. [speaker003:] You've told me abou quite a lot about er yes quite a lot of the bad points, are there are there any, is there anything at all, any good points at all, about living here? [speaker002:] I don't think so [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] You've not found any at all? [speaker002:] No.... I mean some of the pubs are quite nice.... But then again you see you always get trouble in an in another one. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You can come out of a nice pub and go into another bad 'un. [speaker003:] Mhm. So when you've actually gone into pubs have you... do you ever go just you and your girlfriend, into thi into this pub? [speaker002:] Never go on us own. We always go out in a group. [speaker003:] Because why is, is that, is yeah. [speaker002:] For the simple reason you know you one of the if someone starts on one person in our group all the rest of the group can get together and get them. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And [cough] [speaker003:] What's it like, have you ever, have you ever, when you first came here did you go did you ever go in the pubs? [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] With just your girlfriend then? [speaker002:] We never went out. [speaker003:] Didn't go out at all? [speaker002:] The only time we went out is ice skating and that was in town, just go out ice skating now and again.... The only time we've ev you know in pubs round here is like I said when it's someone's birthday in the family [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and we all go out together. That's the only time we'll come round Green. [speaker003:] Yes is that is that because of erm fear that [speaker002:] Fear really you know violence you know.... I mean her her s her dad he he come down Green not so long back to go onto the market, what's that you know just outside the flats. [speaker003:] To the market that's here every Wednesday [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And he went into the... to the Pub [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and he went into the toilets and there was a lot of coloured men there, Do you want to buy some dope? You know he only went to he only went for a pee you know what I mean that cramming five pound and ten pound deals at him, and he's going, No you can, you know [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] in terms of erm the blues parties have, what's your view on those? Do you hear much about them or [speaker002:] Well there used to be one. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] On the end of this walk that used to bother me, cos it used to be going till four and five in the mo you know in the morning. And then when it finishes you've got all the guys coming out shouting and screaming and running about through the flats, the music never bothered me, it was just the you know the guys coming out after that bothered you. Cos you didn't know whether they'd had er you know had a lot to drink or had a load of drugs and start going on the rampage or something. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But they'd never have bothered me. [speaker003:] It's the blues that never been never been much of a problem really. [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] Bothered you. [speaker002:] It's like that one there they they left er i they left the blues and then the tr trouble was caused you see. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So you're saying yeah [speaker003:] See it's not the blues that bother me I don't think it's just the fact that there's there might be trouble afterwards. You know like then. Mhm. [speaker002:] Like a couple there they got robbed. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And that was after the blues finished. [speaker003:] When you had the blues erm near by you said at one time that it was just away from here, was there, was there any, was it, was there any bother after that after the blues then or was it okay? [speaker002:] No I never heard no more. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You know you could hear you could hear them shouting you know goodnight and things like that. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But there was never any trouble. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Not with the blues. [speaker003:] Is it you know in terms of erm in the flats f erm is there any... how how do people you know of different... you know white and coloured people do do they get on o okay or is or is there is there a problem there or not? [speaker002:] I don't really know myself but I [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I find that I I I get on with coloureds anyway quite well. You know cos I know a lot of coloured from different areas. [speaker003:] Yeah and that's the [speaker002:] And most of them moved down to Green as soon as it was built. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So I find that coloureds and whites get on alright anyway.... So I don't think there's any problem with that. [speaker003:] So you don't think there's any problem at all there. [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] No.... I think we'll just... Right erm [cough] you lived in, you were born in, is that alright saying that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Or and you you lived there right through until you were fifteen. Then you went to Valley, and. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. So do you fe obviously in terms of particularly because you lived there right, throughout right up right up until you were fifteen, how did it c how does it compare living there with here? [speaker002:] Well it's a lot better. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean there's no drugs and prostitution and there's not much violence round. There's a lot of burglaries round I admit yeah, but there's not much violence and drugs and things like that, so I I used to think it was good living round. You know cos at least you've got a few fields for the kids to play on and you've got a decent park, you've got a nice pub just down the road and then you've got the big sports hall. You've got a golf course, you've got quite a few things round here, you've even, you've got your school just a bit, you know up past. You've got the church, community centre, infant school and junior school combined, and a nursery so you know it's all within a little community sort of thing. [speaker003:] Mhm. And how does that compare? [speaker002:] But I think got worse when Valley was built cos you know there was more families moving from different parts of t to move you know live at Valley. That's when you know they got more crime committed round and Valley then, cos there was a lot more kids up there. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But before that it was best, you know it was just all farm land, it was brilliant you know. [speaker003:] Mhm. And does it compa Yeah. [speaker002:] Wake up to the sound of chickens, you know sheep and horses and things like that. It was just great. [speaker003:] Mhm. So what how does it compare now would you sa is that kind of erm the other places that you've lived at you know you've lived at, Valley and. How do the, how do you see those areas as comparing, you mean you were sayi you said they bit they were better, how do they compare with living here do you think? [speaker002:] Well I think if I had a if I had a choice where to live [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] out of them four, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] , Valley and Green, I'd pick first, and then second I'd pick Valley, third would be and last would be Green. [speaker003:] Mhm. would be the last place possible. [speaker002:] It would. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah. If someone a obviously it's it's what I'm asking is hypothetical anyway because I mean the flats are coming down so no one new can move in, but say you actually if if it was possible for other people to move into these flats and you knew someone and they said erm, You know I'm thinking of moving into Green flats, what would you say? [speaker002:] I'd tell them, No. I'd say, You don't want to move here. I'd I was I was glad when they said no more can move into Green, cos I was thinking, Well my sister's getting a house soon and my other sister she's getting a house and I don't want them two living round here as well cos the me mam and dad won't be able to see them either, you know if they move into the flats so I was glad. [speaker003:] Mhm. So how did they react to you when you your mum and dad when you actually when you moved in here. You said they haven't been round round do they do they tend to keep away from here so how did they react when you actually first [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] got the flat, yeah. [speaker002:] They just says, Where you living again? So I says, Walk at Green. And they says, Is that near the Pub? I says, Yeah. And they says, Oh well we're not coming down that area then to visit you. I says, Why? She says, Cos there's a lot of drugs and that being you know pushing round that Pub. And I says, Well there's nothing wrong with that, I mean I says, I'm not taking them or owt. She goes, No but the point is that people kill for drugs which probably is right, I don't know, so she says, We're just not coming down. She says, You know it's not being funny or owt, but she said, But you could still visit us but we're not coming down Green. No way. It's just the area. But we still get on alright you know we're still a close family, ever though she don't come to visit. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you find yeah the fact you said that you've got your close family, do you find the fact you're a close family, does that, that, does that help you, you know the fact that you you said that you haven't got [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] many people round here [speaker002:] No. Yeah it does help us [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know cos at least I can still go out and visit all my family even if they can't come down here. [speaker003:] Mhm. How will it be actually living here? You know cos you you said that you di there's no there's no one who you really know round here. And if you didn't'have a close family. I think it would be some who doesn't have a close family because there'll be some people round here who probably won't. [speaker002:] I don't know, I I just think, we'd be a, lonely you know on us own. Sort of thing cos I wouldn't mix with anyone round Green. So I think we'd just stay here and ourself. And then you know till we move. [speaker003:] Right. Thanks very much. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right. start. Erm... you've worked first of all as erm a probation officer. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Erm probation office [speaker002:] The one right [speaker003:] right next right underneath the flats. Erm between what years did you you work there? [speaker002:] From nineteen seventy seven through to nineteen eighty two. [speaker003:] And since nineteen eighty two, am I right in saying that you've worked at the law centre in? [speaker002:] Yes. Yes I've kept up contacts with people. [speaker003:] Mhm. Erm starting with your work as a probation officer. Erm sis you have a lot of contact with tenants in the flats? [speaker002:] We did yes. We were on the ground floor of the flats, and we got to know a lot of them as neighbours as well as some of them as clients. And we shared some of the same problems, sewage s leaking into the offices and asbestos lagging round the piping. So yeah, we got on [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] pretty well. And worked with the tenants association too. [speaker003:] Mhm. And what kind of work did you do with the tenants' association? [speaker002:] Erm it it varied really w we saw our role in general as being to to support and and facilitate the activities that they wanted to get involved [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] in. R not to sort o determine in any way, the kinds of issues they took up. Erm the the probation office itself has b had a rather big conference room, and [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and that was a facility that we made available to the tenants group for public meetings and and that kind of thing. Erm we also offered everything from sort of secretarial help and er use of photocopiers and duplicators, to the tenants' group, through to I guess being able to perhaps suggest to them who in the council it might be that they needed to speak to, or perhaps tactically how to to go about achieving their particular aims. Erm certainly a lot of meetings in the early days, focused on the level of policing in the flats. Or as tenants saw it, the lack of policing in the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er to some extent, probation obviously had something to say about that. [speaker003:] Tt. In terms of policing, was it erm you were saying about there was a view that the police were not [speaker002:] There was a feeling that you never saw a policeman. Actually walking through the complex. And er the people who lived in the flats felt unprotected and and isolated from er from police support. [speaker003:] Mhm. Why do you think there was a f a fear that people wanted the police to erm going round the co I presume they wanted more wanted more police activity. They wanted the police to be seen a lot more. Was that Why do you think that was the case? People felt that way? [speaker002:] There obviously was er the odd incident actually inside the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Fights, G B Hs, erm the occasional mugging. And just the sense of security and I don't think that the level of incidence was very high, but it was enough to make people feel insecure about walking through there at night. Wi without any you know, without any police presence around. [speaker003:] Mhm. Did you have much contact with erm individual clients in the flats? Or [speaker002:] I do What a lot of contact with individual [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] people in the flats? Some [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] some as actual probation clients. Erm and as many a as many people I have contact with through either the tenants' group or through the the Dayroom, which was erm set up in the probation office, but was for people who lived in the area, not necessarily for [speaker003:] Mhm. Okay what Yeah. [speaker002:] offenders. [speaker003:] Now what was the Dayroom? [speaker002:] Well w we just er opened it s I think it was three and a half days a week. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Just flung the doors open [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] basically, and and said, you know, This is a place local people can come into for at least initially a cup of tea, a chat, whatever. And the idea was to provide a a place where where hopefully local people could erm identify for themselves the problems that they shared in common. And take some kind of action. It wasn't intended to duplicate, the work of the tenants' association, it was it was looking at different kinds of of issues. And issues that also affected people in the surrounding streets, not just people in the flats themselves. So being on supplementary benefit was one of the obvious things that people in the dayroom, chose to look at, cos it affected most of them. Erm... I think it it it started off, people would come in the dayroom, with their own supplementary benefit problem, and and clearly we had the sort of handbooks there and and they saw the probation officers on on duty as people who could help them to sort out that sort out that kind of problem. Erm but f what it moved towards was them recognizing that they could sort out their own problems, and perhaps sort out each others. And so a sort of small welfare rights group began to form in the dayroom. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And and that eventually led on to them contacting other interested groups in the area erm like some lawyers from a legal action group, and er other other groups who meet together for whatever purpose in the area, and and setting up Free Legal and Welfare Rights, which was a a formal advice session run on a Thursday night. A lot of local people erm put a lot of effort into creating that that organization. and and kept it going. Erm right through till eighty two when it actually got funding. [speaker003:] Mhm. Was that the Am I right in saying, that was the origins of [speaker002:] Of [speaker003:] the law centre? [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] Am I right in saying that? [speaker002:] Yes. Yes it was. And the the local people and professionals who were involved erm proved the need if you like. Demonstrated the level of need in the area, for legal, welfare rights advice. Did all the groundwork, did the lobbying, got in touch with the councillors, wrote the application for money. And finally after two years the a full time centre was set up. And many of those either lived in the flats or in the surrounding surrounding streets. [speaker003:] Mhm. Moving on, erm... in te you know obviously you must have had a fair amount of c you said you had a fair amount of contact with erm tenants in the flats. Erm during the time you were there, between seventy seven and eighty two, and you've probably kept some contact since. Have things changed in the flats at all? would you say that in terms of the way people feel. Erm [speaker002:] It it's changed at [speaker003:] Or [speaker002:] various points in time. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] When I when I first got to know the flats, certainly after the the incident of a of an elderly lady being erm being mugged and beaten up by some some kids up there. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Certainly after that incident and all the erm the very overly dramatic publicity that centred on the flats. Erm I don't know the figures, but the feeling certainly was that everybody wanted to get out, and thy wanted to get out as quickly as they could. [speaker003:] As a result of that incident? and the publicity? [speaker002:] Erm certainly that that highlighted for people, the the sort of fears that they may have had before. And and generated fears that were unrealistic, and the press report sort of had, you know one rape, one mugging every every three minutes, or something crazy. And certainly there was a high turnover for a couple of years erm late seventies. And it was very difficult to erm... to get to get much activity going in the flats cos people's people's aim was to get out rather than to improve the conditions or or work on local issues. They weren't gonna be there long enough. Or at least they didn't want to be there long enough. And then it it then it settled again I think, in the very late seventies through to the early eighties. There seemed to be a period of of much more stability in the population [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] up there. Erm see the last couple of years it's changed again. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Particularly with the the s the strong belief that the flats were going to come down which has subsequently proved to be true. People are taking the opportunity to get out when they can. A lot A lot of well quite a few people and I mean th have been in the flats way before I came to to. And have quite a lot of good things to say about the flats and the [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] area. [speaker003:] Yeah, what kind of good points do they make? [speaker002:] I think two levels really. One is th the actual facilities round. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm you know it's it's near th near town, it's near good shops, it's near near the schools. [cough] You've got the little bank of sort of library and arts and crafts centre [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and youth club. So it it's it's not as isolated i as some of the the more modern council estates, that are sort o stuck on the edge of the the city. And are great sprawling er masses of property. Er and some people have have formed strong friendships and and strong contacts with other residents in the flats. And for them [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] this is where their friends are. [speaker003:] Mhm. On the basis of your experience you know, you was you said that, the fact that erm sometimes you've got tenants who've formed really good relationships in the flat. That's erm would you say that obviously it's a b it's very difficult to actually ask cos it to some extent you'd be generalizing anyway, would you say that people in the flats, do stick together or or do you get some people who isolated and just k just don't have any flats? I mean how how does it [speaker002:] I think it's difficult to make friends [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] in the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm just the the geography of the flats doesn't help much. I mean you're you're gonna bump into your your neighbour opposite I suppose, both walking up and down the stairs, but but that's about all really. There's no erm there's no I dunno, bit of front garden where you where you feel secure, but you can have a chat with other people, it's it's an isolating design. Erm so it always seemed as if something else was the trigger for friendships. I mean people ha found they had something else in common. Kids in the same class at school. Erm or a need to I dunno find some sort of facility in common. I mean th there w there was always some kind of trigger that that [cough] that broke that initial feeling of isolation and and suspicion. And I think people were quite suspicious of of their neighbours. Er until they actually met them and got to know them. [speaker003:] Yeah. Why why do you feel it is that people are suspicious of their neighbours? I mean I [speaker002:] Several people who came into the area [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] c came in with with the the reputation and the press reports about the area, firmly embedded in their in their head. And that that would make anybody initially very suspicious of of getting to know o other people there. I mean the the press reports on the flats have always been, erm very unjust and very very disturbing. [speaker003:] So you're saying you're the in terms of the media and how it's erm presented to the outside world, I mean what do you what do you f that You've said this now you felt you feel it's unfair. Erm [speaker002:] Well yeah. I mean it's it's portrayed the the flats as a sort of nest of of criminals you know. Erm high high level of crime. Of all varieties, erm violent crime, prostitution, theft, muggings. That's the sort of image it's been given. Er i and it was given that image by pointing the cameras at at at the flats, and then spieling off the crime figures for the whole subdivision. Which is a massive area. Er but you know, it's it's very effective I meant it's stuck. That's that. And it's reputation has travelled or it it's false reputation has travelled quite a long way. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean you go to other towns, they they might not know Nottingham, but they've usually heard of. [speaker003:] So what impact does that erm basis of your experience, what impact does that have, when this is the kind of publicity? What impact does it have on the tenants who are living in the flats? [speaker002:] Well c certainly I mean obviously it has an impact on on individuals who feel [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] cautious and and er suspicious and also angry about being labelled in that kind of way. Erm but, at it at its worst I mean the worst publicity followed this this incident of a an elderly lady having her fingers broken and and money stolen off her by some some lads in their I don't know late early teens I think. Erm and that brought everybody down. I mean all the cameras, erm all the newspapers from the the sort of cheap tabloid ones, right through to Sunday Times, Observer. I mean the place was just buzzing with with journalists. And er not much of the publicity was fair or accurate. And that did result in a group of of people getting together and saying, We want to do something, to to rectify this this bad image and show the good side of. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm and they they put in an awful lot of work in in setting up the Festival. Which was very much a local affair. Kids from the local schools, erm small stalls with with handmade handmade stuff, erm local bands, local music, local food. Er it was it was great, it was er it was coming out and saying, There are lots of good things happening in this area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And we're we're proud of living here. And the press did come down, I mean it got some coverage. The the festival I th went on I think for for three summers. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] What years were they? What years [speaker002:] It's very hard to remember. [whispering] Seventy seven [] I would think it was seventy nine, eighty and eighty one. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] As a guess. [speaker003:] Erm. [speaker002:] Who was actually involved in organizing that? Was that something that came from I mean, to what extent... if at all were were erm tenants of the flats involved in that? [speaker003:] Well the tenants of the flats were very heavily involved in that. [speaker002:] Erm I think at that stage, Robin was the the chairman of the tenants association, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and he was very active on the committee. I think Stan may have may have been around. Stan, during the festival as well. Erm but yes, lots of people from the flats, either taking part in terms of sitting on the committee and doing all the planning and getting all the various permissions that you needed to do all sorts of things. Erm or just being involved on the day, helping out on the stalls. Or just taking part by coming. It was very much a flats activity. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm again a little bit of support from people who worked in the area. But you know, of the practical kind that you need. Somewhere to meet, telephone to use, how to get publicity out. Erm but it didn't come from professionals at all, it came from people wanting to make some other kind of statement, about what what Flats were like. [speaker003:] Mhm. By by the third Summer I think it had outlived its usefulness and it had become much more like a a mini-goose fair. And I certainly didn't particularly enjoy it i in the final year. It was too big and it was divorced from the flats and the the people in the flats. But it served its purpose. So you'd say that as a b er as a result of that it did it did er so it did When you say it served its purpose, it did improve the image? [speaker002:] It did improve the image and it it improved people's confidence I think in themselves and in the area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And must have been I think it was one of the things that that helped to lead to a more settled period. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] People not not moving out at quite the same rate of knots. [speaker003:] Mhm. Erm moving [LAUGHTER] again []. Erm one of the things that is said which is is that, in the flats, an exceptionally high proportion of tenants erm are reliant for for are on benefits. And obviously that adds certain constraints to to sort of erm income. What kind of impact do you think it has, actually... an area that you ju that the flats complex, in which there's basically, not as mass mass relative poverty? [speaker002:] Well it [LAUGHTER] it obviously reduces the the amount of er of cash that's sort of flowing round the. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And obviously it's had an impact on the row of shops out on Road for example. If you look at erm the the turnover of shops down that road, then that must say something about the amount of money in the area. I think I I mean it'ironic really, I think they're at last getting erm the kinds of shops that that best suit the area, on Road now. I mean for the first time there's a erm a sort of Asian wholesale supermarket. Opened up. Erm t to me it's amazing that that has never happened before, if you think of the the Asian population, certainly in in the, area. Erm I dunno, they always seem to get it wrong. I mean they put the strangest shops on Road. That that didn't really deal initially with with what the population needed, which was cheap decent food and and and cheap decent clothing. It's perhaps improved somewhat over the years. Er lack of money cuts down everybody's options. I mean that's what it does, it reduces people's choice. Er it also had practical consequences. Well I think partly the reputation of of the flats and also the general knowledge that not very many people in the flats have much money. Erm had an influence on on credit. People couldn't get it. I mean they they would go right through the process of buying something on credit, and it would be fine until it got to, Erm where do you live. And as soon as er an address on the flats was given out, the offer of credit was withdrawn. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Again, because it was seen as being you know, an area of bad payers. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] Bad debtors. Erm not not correct, I'm sure not accurate in terms of the numbers of population. But that's what that's what shops in in town believed. [speaker003:] So so what you're saying is it was not related that credit was refused, not because of that fact that say people were actually on benefits, cos er the same person actually somewhere else would would probably get It's the very fact they actually live in the flats, that actually has largely accounted for people not being able to get credit. [speaker002:] Yes I'm sure. Yes. Yeah. It was also er i it also made the area a target for er money lenders of the worst variety. Erm I mean obviously you've got people up in the flats who at times, hit absolute desperate rock-bottom situations. Erm you know, no bank's gonna give them a loan. Maybe they can't pay the the 'leccy bill and they're in rent arrears and you know it's Christmas and the kids want everything they see on the television. Y you know it's it doesn't take much to push someone into the situation where they're prepared to to take a big loan from a money lender, to try and clear all their other debts. And er unfortunately that's usually pretty disastrous. Er the money lender that that focus on areas like the flats, er charge exorbitant rates of interest for repayment. And aren't averse to using fairly unpleasant methods to er to get the money back if you begin to default on payments. Er a lot a lot of those merchants used to Probably still do, mooch round the flats. Prey preying on people's property. I think what what what never ceases to amaze me about about people in the flats on benefit, is is how many of them do manage, how many of them never owe a penny. How many of them turn their kids out, erm you know, in decent clothes, properly fed. I mean I don't think I could do it. I I find it extraordinary. I mean I know how some of them do do it. They do it by going without themselves. Erm jumble sales have always been popular in. There's many a a mum you know, who'll who'll clothe herself from a jumble sale. Maybe not clothe her kids, but clothe herself from one. Erm and nights out on the town, you know, trips to the pictures, that kind of thing are are are rare events to say the least. It's extraordinary how people do manage [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Without erm you know [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] resorting to to the things I'm sure I'd resort to, like shoplifting or the methods of gaining money. A lot of people who I'd just describe as having I dunno, people with real dignity and real sense of pride who manage to to bring up their kids and and survive in a decent way, in quite a hostile environment. You know, poor housing and no money are two critical factors that operate against people round here. So I've got a lot of admiration for for people living in these flats.... [speaker003:] Having said this now about a hostile environment. That people were in the flats were operating in a in a hostile environment, you said, low income and bad housing. What what do you think can the can they force someone actually in that situation [speaker002:] What th what the consequences [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and be? [speaker003:] I mean you've spoken about how resilient some tenants are. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And how well the they've done in that situation. [speaker002:] Well if if you add to those two factors, erm isolation and and loneliness, erm then the consequences can vary I mean certainly there were large numbers or quite a few elderly people up in the flats, who who survived who survived very poorly really. Both in terms of social contact and er and also just in erm in literal terms, being properly fed and you know keeping warm over the Winter. Erm I mean they they they didn't venture out the flats, they didn't know who or how to contact for help, and and some of them you know, were were pretty bad over the Winter periods. But you only find out when something dramatic happens. A lot of very young single mums, if the didn't have relative in the area, found the pressures of living in the flats on benefit, er pretty severe. Er and we all know about non-accidental injury. And I suppose broadly speaking there are two kinds. I mean there's the sort of psychopathic, non-accidental injury that you're never gonna be able to do anything about, and it's best just to take the kids away and and and break the link completely. But there's a lot of non-accidental injury that that results from from someone being unable to cope with the pressures they're under. And and certainly that occurred in the flats. And given you know just just a bit of help, be it financial or or erm housing or or help in terms of of contact and support and er you know having having people round you you can call on. For help even if it's only in the emotional kind. Just a little bit of help can er can can bring those families back together and prevent those situations happening again. But yes, I mean there was b battering went on in the flats from time to time. Er not helped much by by er blues parties that went on. Mhm. [speaker003:] There was quite genuine concern you know, when blues parties went on for for days and days and days. Erm about the risk. Cos you know, you you're cracking up with the noise, it's quite easy to to er shake your three year old or your [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Your six month old baby under those sorts of pressures. [speaker002:] blues parties was that Has that been a major problem in the flats? [speaker003:] I think it's been a continuing problem in the flats. Erm it perhaps hasn't been as major as as people might er have thought it should be. Er people are very very good actually at enduring them and er and taking them in some ways for granted. So it's part of you know, part of the the penalty if you like, of living in the flats. Erm there was a cutoff point. And and certainly when when that was broken, then then people did start to come out publicly and complain. Er I mean they there were one or two that just went on literally for days and days and days and days. And that erm led to a lot of people coming down to the probation office, asking, you know, what if anything they could do about the noise up there. And i in sort of legal terms, I mean there are remedies that you can take against noise. But they're so long winded erm you know, you you might sort of you might win at the end of the day, but the blues party will have stopped six months ago.. You get any sort of legal action. Erm I mean that was quite odd really, we had er quite a few white tenants coming in to one end of the building, erm just saying that, you know, We just can't cope with it any more. And we had one or two er black lads coming in the other end of the building, saying, We know they've come down here to complain about us, you know, Don't you listen to them, but where else are we supposed to go? So a lot of sort of tracking to and fro between one end of the office, hoping that the two groups wouldn't meet. And I suppo I mean all that happened with that particular one was a couple of erm of er black black I think they were youth workers, I'm not actually sure. But black professionals who had the respect of of the young element in the flats. Got involved and cooled it down a bit and er and found some of the people some premises, and I think got them some money from Duke of Edinburgh award scheme or something, to buy music music equipment. But I mean they spring up every summer. And it's hard you know,Ho How do you deal with it? I dunno. No one no one could say that they could endure noise, and it must be awful to live next door to it. Erm but it is it's it's a it's a cultural it's a cultural issue. You can't I mean you can't just prosecute it and it will go away. It's just spring up somewhere else. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Lots of suggestions, old cinemas were going to be used as a sort of permanent blues club. There was an idea of using part of the forest for a an area for blues. Erm but of course the the other problem was that that blues parties erm were also places where a lot of ganja was smoked. So you can't actually sort of get a licence to have an all out blues party with ganja. So it still wasn't gonna meet the actual need that prompted them to occur in the first place. Er it led to s to trouble at times, but as I say, less trouble than you might imagine. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Erm do you know in in the flats, erm different ethnic groups. What kind of relationship did they have with erm white tenants Has there been much racial tension in the flats or has that been insignificant [speaker002:] I don't think there has. I think there's been surprisingly little er perhaps it's a slightly romantic notion, but I think it's it's got something to do with, you're all enduring the same kind of misery together. You know. It perhaps diffuses and dilute that kind of erm of racial tension from building up. Erm I mean you know it's sort of there were certainly there were certainly groups of black tenants and white tenants who mixed, and there were certainly groups of of white tenants who wouldn't mix with the black tenants and vice versa. And here people can operate erm have that sort of segregationist attitudes, but that's not the same as as saying that they had sort of hostile feelings. Erm no surprisingly little. [speaker003:] Do you kn do you know prior to the eighty one disturbances? [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker003:] Erm you were telling me when we had the preliminary interview about erm what happened a few months prior to the disturbances that occurred in the late Summer. Erm when a car went past. [speaker002:] Yeah that's right. Cos I happened to be out on Road, when it happened [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It was just this this car, well it was very quiet, that not much traffic about. And this car went th right through the through Road. With all the windows open. Driving fairly slowly and and shouting erm racist slogans out the window. But there was also what certainly everyone judged to be a a sawn off shotgun, pointed out one of the back windows. Erm and I mean the people who saw it, everyone was indignant. I mean the the white people who saw it were indignant. And everyone was quite fearful I think about whether sort of outside influences were gonna sort of introduce erm you know race riots inverted commas commas into the area. Er it was reported to the police and and everyone was a bit dissatisfied. about the outcome of that. i mean they did get the guys. And I think they were charged with something minor like threatening behaviour or breach of the peace, something like that. Erm it was felt that it warranted something a lot stronger than that. Er I think the difficulty was, there wasn't much they could charge him with. Erm some people around, particularly a the Asian population around w then became worried about what sort of support they would actually get from, the police in real terms if outsiders came into the area. And started to stir up you know, racial hatred. Erm By that time I mean the there had been lots of problems in other cities. There had been you know, what was termed incidents resulting from racial tension. In other areas. So it was kind of an issue that was felt not to be happening in, but there was fear that it could it could be introduce you know, as I say, from outside. I mean, a feeling that it it wasn't naturally in the area but it could be stirred up. By outsiders coming in. Erm and that's you know I think that's was wasn't an entirely unrealistic fear. There are always gonna be a a set of of people in any area who erm who will latch on to to racist attitudes and racist acts if if someone comes in waving that as an you know, as an organized activity. as I say, it was followed I mean it wasn there was no link between the two things. At least I don't think there was. But it was followed a few months later by sort of mini riot. [speaker003:] Mhm. So could you tell us a bit about that. What actually happened when these disturbances took place. What what sort did it. Was it a sudden occurrence, was there some kind of build up or [speaker002:] There there was a build up in that I think we we were one of the last towns to have the problem. I think ours came on the sort of third day of the riot, so you'd already had erm Birmingham going and er i think Bristol as well, had gone by then. So there was obviously a lot of debate around, you know, Is it going to happen? and if it does happen, well it'll clearly happen in. Erm i it was strange I know, I can't explain it logically, it was just we we certainly we felt in the office that we would somehow know if and when it was gonna happen. And that seemed to be a feeling that was er generally shared, well certainly shared by some of the people in the flats. I mean the first couple of days, we spent a lot of time just trying to cool people down and and stop them panicking and er and stop them going over the top. Erm but then there there came an afternoon where y y there were little sort of crocodiles of of of mums with prams you know, dragging the kids behind, with the prams loaded up with their sort of precious possessions, heading out of the area. And if people had relatives living elsewhere, you know, that's what they did, on this particular afternoon. Erm and it went up that that night.... I mean it was it was a very small affair fortunately I think sort of glorifies it too much by giving it giving it the name, riot. But there was a lot lot of damage done to the shops right down the length of Road. And just as bad, even worse, in in terms of personal consequences, all the sort of corner shops in, particularly the the Asian off licences come grocers, were were I mean were were just looted. Not a thing left. Smashed up, looted. And a lot of the shopkeepers didn't have any kind of insurance at all. I mean we had a lot of them are run anyway on credit, there's no real capital lying behind those businesses. And so they lost everything. That was it, those particular shopkeepers er didn't didn't start up business again. [speaker003:] So they were finished? [speaker002:] They were finished. Yeah. And and apparently even now, if you try and get insurance on Road, for your property, erm unless you're prepared to pay a ridiculously high premium, you you can't get it. It is to the area is still treated differently for insurance terms. To other parts of the city. [speaker003:] So that as a direct result of what happened in eighty one? [speaker002:] Well that's the only thing I can think of. It was described to to someone who's recently set up a a small restaurant on Road, as being a high risk insurance area. So er it seems seems likely it's a consequence of that. Erm I mean one one fact that emerged after the the riots, when the actual arrest figures were were analyzed, was that the vast majority of people who were arrested at any rate, didn't come from the area. Very very very few came from the local area. And they came either from other parts of the city, or even from as far away as Birmingham. So there w there was certainly some element of people like, you know, organizing themselves to come down to, either intent on creating trouble or erm you know,ju just to see what was happening in. Really not many local people at all involved in it. And you don't smash up your own nest do you. I mean you go and smash up somebody else's. [speaker003:] Mhm. So so you're saying that basically it was outsiders who erm [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] were involved in that. [speaker002:] Yeah. It was. [speaker003:] Erm and and you said in the preliminary interview, the fact that there was some people who actually who lived in the flats who said quite am said quite clearly, this is not the time to [speaker002:] That's right. It was a very disturbing erm letter that that arrived at some flats, that was from Birmingham. Erm i it was sent to to known known very radical black activists. Erm [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] certainly it was assumed that there was some kind of organized network [speaker003:] Mm. Right. [speaker002:] behind it. But it was it was from the bosses if you like, in Birmingham, saying, Don't get involved in this, this is a small scale skirmish, cos this this is not the time. And er you know, the instruction was, keep your guns in the cupboard for now. Erm and that that was very disturbing, not many people knew about that letter, and certainly it wasn't something that the that the probation staff who saw it, erm told anybody about. Er apart from the police, I think the police were made aware of the letter. Erm a and we you know we kept wondering afterwards, Well when is it gonna be now? Because there there were guns up in the flats. There may still be guns hidden in flats. And touch wood nothing's happened and hopefully nothing will. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you [speaker002:] was okay cos you knew there was some heavy heavy organized er guys up there, who who had ammunition and who had had had they felt differently that time, I guess the guns would have come and the police station would have been attacked. Although it was bombed at one stage. [speaker003:] You say when did that happen? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I can't remember [] it was it wasn't very dramatic. [speaker003:] actually. Who was actually who was actually who was actually involved, was that the an individual or group or [speaker002:] I d I really don't know I I really don't know enough about it. I can't A few people were charged with it. I mean it was something fairly minor, a petrol bomb or something like that. Was chucked at the police station. Didn't do a lot of damage. But of course you've now got the modern police station you know. Sort of thing. The cameras on the top. More or less you see them coming a mile off now. Erm No I can't remember enough about it. As I say it w wasn't a very dramatic incident. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Or it di didn't seem to be received in the area as as being a [speaker003:] Mhm. Erm going back to erm to the disturbances that did ta took place in nineteen eighty one. Did they have any lasting impact on people in the flats or w was it quickly forgotten. [speaker002:] I think the Sorry. [speaker003:] I think before you spoke about the the the fact that erm what happened with the the that was erm. [speaker002:] Oh yeah. I think it was [speaker003:] Did that have did that have quite an impact in terms of the disturbances? [speaker002:] Actually I don't think it did have quite such an impact. Partly because, compared with the national picture, as i say, it was a very very small disruption. And er if you look at what happened in Birmingham, it was nowhere near that sort of scale. And also I think because a lot of publicity erm was given to to the actual arrest figures, and to the fact that they didn't come from the local area. And and that was given higher coverage by the press. So people were sort of you know, exonerated if you like, from their involvement in it. And like it led again, to people I'm sure, people wanting to get out. And led to increased instability in the in in the population in the flats. Erm it led again to questions of of policing, being of paramount importance. And certainly af after the riots, they were always erm couple of days, perhaps longer than that where erm local policemen would be up on the walkways, playing football with the local kids. And they were always very cheerful and waving chatting away. The police and the and the tenants. Erm but that you know that that didn't carry on much more than a few days after the the initial disturbances. Erm there there were quite a few interesting debates that that came up about policing after the riots, I mean initially it was the fact that you didn't see any policemen in the flats at all. Erm after the riots, the debate seemed to get much more complicated. I mean there were there were still quite a lot of tenants who wanted to see police patrolling in twos and threes, through the complex. But there were also a lot of people who felt that the presence of er of police in twos and threes, actually inflamed problems in the flats rather than cooled them down. Er and one had to have sympathy w with the police who who's response was, Well you t you tell us what's the right thing to do. I mean either we're not there or there's too many of us there. Erm fights after after blues parties, certainly seemed to sort themselves out. Erm I mean maybe maybe not to the good of the participants. Er there were a couple of times when the police were called and actually turned up, and and what people believed would have been a minor fight, then developed into a you know a major skirmish. Involving you know just eight or nine people. And it was that kind of debate that that went on the last few years. How do you police erm an area sensitively. Erm the debate still goes on. When they shut the, the the debate sort of shifted to outside the law centre. Funnily enough. Because the was er was a well known hive of erm less than pleasant activities. Heavy drug dealing and and heavy heavy pimping. And there's also the pub where the police, the police always knew they could find who they wanted in the. And if they couldn't find them there they had a number of informers in the. Who would er tell them what they wanted to know. When the was shut, some of the these from the came to the just across the road. Erm and a lot of them, straddled themselves out on the pavement erm in groups of s thirty, forty people along Avenue. And again residents around here, contacting the police, being very concerned about their safety etcetera. At that stage, the police's response was, if we come in, we'll we'll stir it up. So they they didn't they kept to their. It was a very hard judgement to make. [break in recording] [speaker003:] Erm... the f the first thing er first of two things that we said we'd look at just now were erm the kind of work that you did erm with clients in the flats. The kind of problems that they had. And how. [speaker002:] Yes I suppose that perhaps there are two ways of approaching that question. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The first is to just describe briefly the sort of range of offences committed by people who happen [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to live in the flats. And then, secondly t to just sort of mention the erm perhaps the more traditional ways of of working with people once they've been sent to you by the courts. You know having been labelled [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] as an offender. Erm I think I I probably outlined in in the previous interview, erm the range of offences, but but very briefly, it was everything from fairly minor trivial offences, erm prostitution, shoplifting, petty theft. Er through to quite a lot of of violent crime. Er street muggings, through to armed robbery. And also of course a lot of crimes that had their that were basically crimes of domestic violence. Or family disputes, A B Hs, assaults, grievous bodily harm. Erm going right through to a er a murder o on one occasion. So that crime the full range of crime you know,wh was displayed by some people living in the flats. Erm all those I've mentioned before I think the number of of people who were convicted of petty offences, and maybe had never offended af before and didn't offend ever again, was probably quite high. Offence induced by, stress, poverty, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] inability to find a way out of the financial tangle that they were in. Lot of shop lifting was for that reason. A lot of prostitution was for that reason. And some people are very unfortunate and get caught first time. Others do it dozens of time and never get caught, but that's another story. So it was a full range of offences and I mean there isn't a typical way of working with a typical kind of offence. Erm part of the probation officers job if you like, is to hopefully with the cl [recording ends]

[speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Erm. So erm when did you live in the flats? [speaker002:] Erm I lived in the flats from Christmas eighty three till September eighty five. [speaker003:] Mhm. And erm in addition you've you're a social worker. [speaker002:] I am a social worker. [speaker003:] And you and you've erm through through your work as a social worker, you've had some contact with people in the flats. [speaker002:] That's right. I've erm contacted them through living there and working with them as well. [speaker003:] Mhm. And in addition to that, am I right in saying, for thirty years you've been a nun? [speaker002:] I've been a nun for thirty years [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] yes. [speaker003:] Erm... whereabouts whereabouts erm were you born? [speaker002:] I was born in Scotland. [speaker003:] In Scotland, what part? [speaker002:] In the West of Scotland, just between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Yes and erm I came down here erm just at the time I was becoming a nun thirty thirty odd years ago. [speaker003:] So have you got have you got any brothers and sisters? [speaker002:] I have one erm a sister and one brother, both married with families in Scotland still. So I still go back. To visit them. [speaker003:] What about erm the occupation of you parents? [speaker002:] Er well my my mother is a cook and [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] my father is a mi sorry he wasn't a miner. He was a miner for a very short time. erm but then he he couldn't take and he moved into the steel works. So he he's worked in steel work for a long time. Till he retired. [speaker003:] What kind of [cough] education had when did you when did you leave sc [speaker002:] Erm yeah, I attended the grammar school [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] in Scotland and erm it was called the senior secondary then. And erm I er did my Scottish Higher Leaving Certificate. And erm then after erm I had done my training as nun, I did teacher training, and I taught for twenty years, before becoming a social worker.... [speaker003:] How what kind of a Prior to living on the flats, erm what kind of accommodation have you lived in? [speaker002:] Erm well I I've lived always in sort of traditional convents, which are generally [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm sort of detached houses or er rather big properties somewhere or other. Erm but prior to coming to er live in the flats, I lived on Road in, erm next door to a mother and baby home. And I worked in the mother and baby home. So that was just like an ordinary [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] detached house on the the main road in. [speaker003:] So how how does the accommodation erm you've been in prior to flats, contrast with erm living on the flats? [speaker002:] Erm it was a [LAUGHTER] a complete contrast. Erm it couldn't be more different actually. Er you know living er so close to neighbours and people you know in so it tended to be, in other places where I've lived, that you didn't see people people very often, at least you didn't speak to your close neighbours very often, and erm in the flats, you know I found that they were right in the midst of it. [speaker003:] Okay. What was your motivation behind living in the flats? The I know you [speaker002:] Erm well it it really stemmed out of my work in the mother and baby [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] home. Er several of the girls who had been in the mother and baby home, were housed in the flats. And we had to help them to move and you know help them to move their things and really I saw the kind of difficulties the girls would be living under. And I felt that they did need some kind of ongoing support. And also I used to notice that there were quite a lot of em empty window, you know, in the flats, and erm you know I just got a feeling that this was really where I I found that I would be able to work, or that I wanted to work. So from there I I mentioned it to our provincial who's the i the one who's in charge of us all in this er area. And erm that I would like to live in the flats, and she just said, Why don't you? And erm I asked around to see if anyone else was interested in doing the same kind of thing. And another sister said she would be happy to join me in that. And so I approached erm Mr at Street. But I I wrote in and I was asked to see Mr. And erm you know and I had a letter then from Mr, saying that they would consider us for a place, in the flats. And erm after about six six or eight months, we were given a place off Walk.... [speaker003:] Having lived there f for a few years, erm how did it contrast with what you actually expected? How did it with your original expectations? [speaker002:] Well I think having erm had some contact [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] in the flats [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and also when girls moved in I would visit them in the flats [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] and erm they came back and visited the mother and baby home too. So I knew the kind of complaints they had about the flats. And erm and so I I I was familiar with the kind of things erm that we expected. And well you know things like the noise of the blues parties and things like that were a great annoyance. I came in knowing that that was going to happen, so erm yo I think also I had the the freedom that I had chosen to live there, and I think that made erm the difference. I put up with with it then, knowing that I had chosen it. And erm also but I I was glad to experience the kind of things that people who were living in the flats without choice, had to experience. [speaker003:] Mhm. Am I right in saying that one of one of your motivations behind living in the flats was the fact that erm the contact with people on on the flats, and you felt erm that it would help you erm [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] if you actually went through the experience that they themselves were [speaker002:] That's right. It would help me and er it would give me a greater understanding. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm having actually experience that way of you know having to live. [speaker003:] And that was and that was something that was achieved,ha having lived there a few years, you think [speaker002:] Well I don't think it was achieved, because I mean it's there's always [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] something I mean we moved out of the flats, partly because the flats were coming down, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and partly because I had to have an operation which meant that it wouldn't be easy for me to live in the flats any longer. And it just seemed that that was the time to give up the tenancy. But I would hope, I mean it has given me the the wish to go on living in a similar kind of situation.... [speaker003:] So a actually living on the flats, erm did that ha did that have any impact for your actual life itself compared to other places you've lived [speaker002:] Yes it erm it certainly did. Erm i because the people that w we were we near to the people and more accessible to them, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I think they felt happier in coming to visit us. And I certainly think that they felt more comfortable coming to our flat, than they would have felt coming to a big private house somewhere [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] or other. And in that way I felt that I was closer to people. [speaker003:] Mhm. So I'm right in saying, you had an open house in which people could [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] tenants in the flats could come in and [speaker002:] Yes er we just [speaker003:] talk [speaker002:] Yeah er you know, we had an understanding that if erm because there were times when we wanted to just have some time together, or to pray together, and erm you know people who did come in and out to the flats, we erm told them that if th we were in and we didn't answer the door, it was actually because we were either doing something that we couldn't come. And er the people just accepted that, and they didn't keep them from coming, because at most of the time, er the [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] house would be open, even late at night or erm you know, early in the morning if necessary, people could come. [speaker003:] Mhm. How many people did you in your er in your time on the flats, how many people do you think, have visited at some time? [speaker002:] Oh. Aye. Yeah aye. Er we never kept account of of anything but I mean some evenings it would be quite quiet and maybe just the next-door neighbour [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] would be in or erm you know, maybe in the course of the evening or just the afternoon, we'd have had two or three people called. I remember one evening we went up to bed, and my head was just spinning because we'd had about ten ten people had come in, some of them overlapping and some had you know but I'd say at one stage we had about seven people in the flat together. Erm and although it was erm you know, it was good and the people themselves enjoyed talking to each other as well, it was a bit tiring [] at the end of the day. But er y you know that that kind of thing, erm we always hoped and felt was good. [speaker003:] Mhm. What happened say on Sundays and erm and during religious holidays, did you get [speaker002:] [cough] Well on Sundays I mean we went to to church in the [speaker003:] Church yeah. [speaker002:] the local church. And erm... it was just the same as any other day. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Occasionally we had to go away to one of our other convents for meetings. But if we were there it was just the same. Erm but the door would be open for anybody who [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] wanted to come. [speaker003:] And what k what kind of response did you have erm from from erm tenants of the flats, I mean how how did you were people people generally friendly. [speaker002:] They w Oh yes. Erm you know any anyone we met and and spoke to I think some people held us in some kind of suspicion, but a lot of people were glad er to have the er you know have the company and erm that were were available to them. I thi I mean there were quite a number of people, I would say on the flats that we didn't make contact with at all. [speaker003:] Mhm. I don't th I think when we spoke last week, erm referred to the fact that er ethnic minorities erm [speaker002:] That's right. Especially erm among the the the er the young Rastafarians. Now with the older West Indian people we would have you know, a passing sort of conversations and I know a couple of them came to help to get me to help them to fill in D H S S forms and things like that. Erm or I mean you know for advice about what they could do about D H S S. They came to the house to do that. But with the younger erm West Indians I didn't feel that we we we just didn't seem to be able to find an approach. And er part of it I think was because during the daytime you didn't see them very much, and at nighttime y you know they they would be obviously around erm going to blues parties and things like that. But it just didn't seem to be a time when you could er get an entry. You know so it was something that erm I didn't really feel that we did. [speaker003:] Mhm. What do f er Moving on to look at the image that the flats have, erm bad publicity the flats [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] have had in the media. Erm how fair do you think it is, the actual th the actual coverage of the flats? [speaker002:] Well I certainly didn't find it any more dangerous living in the flats, than I would have found living in. And I didn't feel any more afraid, walking into the flats, than I would have felt walking on the road at night you know in in where I'd been before. Erm also do you know like, people would say things like, Oh you must be very brave living in the flats. We didn't feel brave at all it was just, we lived there and we didn't feel under any kind of threat. And in fact, one night we'd gone to bed and left the key in the door, and the door unlocked, the key on the outside. And we came down in the morning as safe as we would have been anywhere. Erm I know there had been occasion when we had people sleeping on the the stairway and you know, I think occasionally and but I think sometimes that was maybe somebody got home from a blues party, and had too much to drink or something, and they came into the warm, the heat w from the the downstairs flat, er k comes up on the stairwell, and I know there was someone sleeping there. Erm but I certainly never felt under any threat or any danger from people in the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. So you so really erm you'd say that the actual image of the flats, in the press and the media in general, somewhat unfair. [speaker002:] Yes. Yes erm well certainly from my own experience er I I don't really think that erm there was as much crime or break-ins or danger as there seemed to be portrayed in the [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the media. [speaker003:] Mhm. What having lived on the flats, erm what would you put forward as being some the good points of living there? What what were the Yeah the good the good points for you personally, yeah. [speaker002:] Do you mean the good points for me personally? Yeah. Well [speaker003:] What did you find best about living there. [speaker002:] Er well I think the experience that I gained of the the kind of erm living situation erm because I you know we underwent the same kind of difficulties. Erm e even like things like emptying the bins. Er I know there were complaints that people used to throw rubbish out of the windows. Well it did take a bit of organization to get yourself to the end of the walk, erm with your your weekly rubbish or your daily rubbish, to get that put away. Er and you know to really see what kind of erm design, what design can do to the actual living situation. Erm I think too, the closeness to erm our neighbours and to to the people was a very good experience. And also just the the whole erm general feeling of being with the people in the flats. And I I think I had great admiration for the er in particular for the the woman who was the erm president of the tenants association. I think she did a marvellous job in really getting public attention to the situation and to the difficulties of the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er to the community worker who fight them. Well I really you know, felt that that was a good experience, to see people who were normally classed as powerless, having erm that kind of strength within themselves and and the the power to push on and to face lots of difficulties. And er you know, to face being knocked back. Er very often when they were trying to do things. And to do it without a lot without a lot of support from the a from the people who actually lived in the flats, although they organized things and got it going, and the people living there didn't seem to be motivated to give them the kind of encouragement erm [speaker003:] Mhm. Why d why do you think why do you think it is that there wasn't that motivation? [speaker002:] Erm a lot of it was that people just accepted their situation and didn't think there was any way they were going to get anything different. I think erm maybe some of them felt it would be a waste of time fighting for it. Er but obviously you know, the the the courage and the the strength of the the people who did keep it going, erm really has achieved a lot. They they they've achieved all these people being moved out of the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. Which which was only which was the key [speaker002:] That's right. That was what they said how to do. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Because they er well the flats just i weren't good enough to be erm you know, structurally, structurally erm renovated or whatever. [speaker003:] Why do you think it is that [cough] erm that the reputation of the flats has been er I suppose gone off and I mean early on back in the early seventies, erm the flats were quite an attractive place to come to, it wasn't even that easy to get on the flats. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] And yet, gradually the reputation has gone down, it's become an area in which erm basically people who haven't been able to get housing. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] been desperate. How is tha how is that's come about? [speaker002:] Erm well you know, from my experience in the mother and baby home, it seemed that even when girls didn't want to live in Flats, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] if they didn't take the offer of the flat, there was very little else they were going to get. It was either this flat or nothing. And they would take it. And I think that was the situation for a lot of people, that erm if they didn't take the the flat that was offered to them, then they would be virtually erm either still on a long waiting list or homeless. And er so I think the kind of people who were being housed. They weren't the kind of people who could get themselves together and organized, it was a more and more the bottom end of the scale and people who were actually erm you know, really powerless in many ways. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And so e with that the the decline of the flats really erm seemed to to go that way. [speaker003:] Yes. What do you think the impact is on erm you know a community such as Flats when erm you know, when a majority of the people in the flats, are living on the poverty line, or below it? How does that e affect the community? You know [speaker002:] It it seems there's a sort of general air of hopelessness. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm and you know and I the thing that erm used to worry me maybe sometimes, was the acceptance of this as what they should be having. And that this was the the only way of life they could have. Erm that probably because they'd been at the bottom so long, er it didn't appear that there was [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] gonna be much way up. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So say if I said to you, well if and I said to you, Well what could I do? What can I do? This is my situation. So how would you respond to that. I said w you know what can I do to change the situation? [speaker003:] Erm well I think erm the first thing I would probably do would be try and explain what your what the rights your rights were, and what sort of benefits you were entitled to. Because a lot of people didn't even know what they were entitled to. Or if they were told that they couldn't get so and so, that was it. So on occasions we could erm help people with that kind of thing. And I know it's difficult to get people motivated when they've been hit down and hit down so often, er but and I don't think that you could do er any great erm as as we said when we went into the flats, we didn't go in with any big, world shattering ideas of of causing a revolution or you know, of doing er putting on a big project or anything, it was actually to be with the people in their situation and gradually to help improve somehow, if we could. And you know I think that's all we could do, tackle i ind er with individuals as they came along. And I know a lot of things too with the girls who came to us, we tried to erm give them er a sense of their worth as a women and not to constantly be oppressed and to accept erm what their boyfriends did or said, and so on. You know, like erm maybe one of them'd say, Well you know, I'd say, well why don't you leave her with erm your boyfriend for the day, and you have a day off and have a break? Oh well it's my place to look after you know, the child. And I'd say well if there are two parents there whether it's whether they're married or whether they're not, the parents are there together, it was shared equally. We would try to erm put those kind of things forward. And where ag erm either erm a young mother or even older women who didn't have a husband to support them, then we would try and we had one woman coming in and saying, she had six children and er her husband had gone off, and her giro hadn't been sorted out. She wanted to get the children to school and er als she'd no money for things for their breakfast. Well they did provide her with food, but also I took her up to the phone and showed her how to get in touch with D H S S and explain the situation. So those kind of things we tried to do. With your with regard to erm the tenants and and the contact you had with them, erm would you say that you found that people tended to be supportive of each other? On in in your opinion or not? Do people obvi obviously there are virtually everyone at the flats, was in a is in a poor situation [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] financially [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] Erm [speaker002:] I would say that erm [speaker003:] I mean how much of a community is there in the flats? [speaker002:] Oh there there isn't I I wouldn't say there was a big community spirit. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I would say that there are small groups of people who help each. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And erm you know, I I've had on occasion, when there have been a couple of people in our flat, we hadn't either done or said anything. I you know, one woman came in in distress again, her husband had left her and gone off leaving rent arrears. At that time, and erm she hadn't known anything about it, because he had looked after the benefit, and she thought he'd been paying the rent. And she came in with and it was bad enough him going off and leaving her, erm without her finding this as well. And she came in and she was telling us all about it, and another woman who was there, she was the one who, she went over and sat beside here and said, Oh never mind and, You know we we we'll get it sorted out, and, You're better off [LAUGHTER] without him []. [LAUGHTER] Er you know sh there were she was saying things and we were just sitting er by her watching her, providing the cups of tea. Erm but you know there but on occasions when people really needed help, there was usually somebody erm that they could turn to. But as for er a sort of lively erm community spirit throughout the flats, it wasn't very much in evidence. [speaker003:] Mm. Just basically small groups that would help each other. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] Did you have any contact with erm prostitutes who worked from the f from the flats or not? [speaker002:] Erm yeah, we had a nodding acquaintance with quite a few of them, and I think they they were aware of who we were. Now whether they were suspicious of us because we were nuns, I don't know. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm but er w we didn't have erm sort of close contacts [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er with them. I know one or two of them, erm now as well [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] erm but you know, we didn't actually erm we didn't have them coming [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to visit us. Not fr you kn from our we would door but it was open [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to them as to anybody else. [speaker003:] Mhm. You're in your opinion what do you what were what were generally the motivation behind the girls becoming prostitutes, I mean was it [speaker002:] I would say a lot of it is money. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm and I know one that I do know now said it's Certainly, she said, it's only for the money I do it, nothing else. [speaker003:] Mm. So it's a case of the poverty that exists within the flats, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] erm [speaker002:] I think so. [speaker003:] forcing them onto onto the onto the [speaker002:] Onto the onto the the the street. Yeah. And it was very easy for young erm young women erm who were either just on supplementary benefit or on unemployment, erm to get sucked into that way of living because I mean obviously they wanted nice clothes and things like that. It was a way of getting money. [speaker003:] Mhm. look at the actual erm suitability of the flats say, for bringing up children. Erm how suitable would you say the flats are for bringing up children? [speaker002:] Well there's certainly not there's not much in the way of er play area for the children. There was the big concourse, but that was the general er walkway for everyone. And I know like er there there were lots of things kids there on roller skates going along, walkways, people were shouting at them or you know trying to clear them off. Erm and there was just, and there was very little by the way of of grass even and er you know it was towards the end of the life of the flats really, that the play scheme got going. Erm for the children there. But and you know, like, for mothers er trying to get buggies and shopping and everything up, they'd either to go up stairs or down stairs. To get into their flats. And I think it it caused quite a lot of hassle and difficulty for people with young children. And then the er the older ones when they were if if they were sitting on the walls outside, the erm deck level flats, again [LAUGHTER] they were either disturbing the people there or, the people were out shouting at them to get away and sit on their own walls and things like that. But there was just very little erm convenience and accommodation. For either young children or teenagers. [speaker003:] Mhm. What about for the elderly the [speaker002:] Erm well [speaker003:] How do you e [speaker002:] Again probably I had kind of personal experience of that, erm when I had the difficulty in walking myself. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Erm. You know, the difficulty of getting up to the flats,i you know I I suffered from arthritis, and er you know i it was quite a strenuous business to get from the ground up to our own flat. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It was very tiring and actually the perspiration just used to be dropping off me by the time I got into the flat. So you know I think for er people who are elderly or disabled in any way, that was a difficulty too. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I think perhaps, elderly people were quite afraid erm on the you know, living on the on the deck level. I know we had one lady erm lived underneath us and she was really very nervous and you know erm hardly came out of her flat at all. She used to get someone else to go and do her shopping for her. Because she was afraid. [speaker003:] Mhm. So did you go and to see her at erm often [speaker002:] Yes we used to go to see her, and she came up a couple of times. But even to come out of her flat and come up to us, if we went down and brought her up, she would come. [speaker003:] Was that due to personal experience or was it [speaker002:] No I think she was probably a nervous kind of person [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker002:] erm as well. But you know, when if if a a clutch of erm young people were together, standing outside, she would get very frightened about it. [speaker003:] Wh you know erm to look at the actual facilities that erm is in the flats, erm tenants' action group. You thought they di did a pretty good job. [speaker002:] They they did they did an excellent job, and it was only a small group of people erm [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] together. And they got the survey going, and they got enough people to volunteer to go round and interviewing people living in the flats, to get all the information that was required. Erm they got the the media to come in on it. And they they really erm took on a mammoth task really. And er er I think they they did a marvellous job. [speaker003:] Mhm. Did you have any contact where a lot of times in the flats, with the housing office? [speaker002:] Erm very very little. Only erm on occasions when we needed repairs done. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] When you had to keep pestering them to do it. And erm you know I know that was one difficulty, that people had a long time to wait for repairs. Erm as well. And er I know the housing office always had excuses that they had put the the report in and we were just waiting for someone to do it. But that could be you kn quite difficult on occasions. But we didn't have erm very close contacts. [speaker003:] How did you find the the local shops, erm [speaker002:] Oh well I found was a very cheap place to live. [speaker003:] You found it Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. And erm we did all our shopping in the local area and at the market. Here I mean [speaker003:] So you found the market good? [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes. We found it we we lived you know very cheaply. [speaker003:] If you what say if you say erm wanted to erm buy clothes would you go [speaker002:] Yeah we we bought clothes in the local shops as well. Whatever we could get. Erm a lot of the stuff, you know a lot of my clothes, I always make myself anyway, but I you know what on the market then. [speaker003:] What about for things I mean, did you have a telephone yourself? Y I think you said [speaker002:] We did have a telephone in the house. Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm what happened you know, most people in the flats hadn't got, a telephone, say there was an emergency, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] erm How much of a problem was that for for tenants living on the flats? [speaker002:] Well we we often had people coming and asking to use our telephone, because either the telephones were erm all out of order, or you could only dial for emergencies. Erm when we moved into the flat, at first, there was actually a telephone box on the deck. And just outside our place, but it was often erm out of order. And I think it w w was quite difficult for people because they'd either have to walk a long way to try and make a telephone call. If their giro didn't come, erm the only way of of contacting D H S S, was either to go down, or to walk all round until they could find a telephone to do it. Cos er we quite often had people in, erm asking to use the telephone to ring D H S S which, you know we let them do. [break in recording] [speaker003:] Right, having lived on the er flats, what did you feel about the actual setup, you know, the rooms, the actual flats themselves? [speaker002:] Er well the the a the flat that we lived in, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] erm I I found it that it was a very pleasant layout. The living room was erm quite big. Er the kitchen wasn't very big but it was good enough, and then the bedrooms upstairs, I certainly wouldn't have liked to live in a downstairs flat. Er because I think you know the erm the bedrooms on er the bottom floor, er certainly I wouldn't have liked to sleep, erm in a downstairs bedroom like that. Erm the t er er you know I think the whole erm the layout inside was quite good. Erm but things like er you could see how people would lose heart with decorating, er because fairly soon after you'd decorated, the ceiling and the wall, erm just below the heaters and above the heater, cos it was almost, well it was almost completely black. And y erm you know, you would get pieces of grit and black heavy dirt dust coming out onto the furniture. Erm from the the heating, the heating system. And so that you know, could be erm very disheartening, when you were trying to keep things erm good. And then oh, at the end when we knew we were coming out. We just didn't even bother to to whitewash or to paint the ceiling again. Erm but the flats themselves could be nice. I mean we didn't have any damp or anything in erm our flat, but I've been in some of the downstairs ones, where they were very very damp. The erm you know sort of, the facilities like disposal of rubbish, erm and entrances were a bit difficult I found. Erm and the the chutes for getting rid of rubbish were just, well they were just erm not practical in any way. They didn't fit the kind of er bags you put in your d your bin for a start. Erm you couldn't put erm anything that was you know more than a small pedal bin size. Bag in and most people had a lot more than that to put down, so consequently they just dumped it if it didn't fit. So you know there were erm lots of little things like that erm in the layout of the flats which I thought weren't er well they just weren't practical. [speaker003:] Mhm. Erm in your opinion er how how suitable do you think the flats are for actually bringing up s a family. [speaker002:] Well they're not at all suitable really [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] erm because, to get in to the flat they'd either to go up stairs from the deck, or downstairs from the deck, and to try and manage that with small children, probably a buggy and shopping as well. Erm and people wouldn't know what to do, whether to leave the child at the bottom of the stairs and take the the shopping in or to to leave the shopping and have er you know, er think it might go missing or something by the time they take the child and the buggy. Up or down. And also there was just no proper play area, for children. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They played on the concourse, and er were always being shouted at by residents who didn't want them er playing just in front of their places. Er if they wanted to be on their roller skates or even on their bikes, then they were sort of going around the walkways. Again they were disturbing people living on the, either the deck level or the ground floor flats, because of the noise that that made. And there was no soft play area, at all for children. Until the the play centre was actually opened and that was towards the end of the life of the flats really. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm you know, [speaker003:] Yeah why Why was it that it was towards the end when things were that there was finally a play centre set up ra rather than actually erm in the earlier days? Have you any idea or not? [speaker002:] Well I think it was just because of the the people who put the pressure on at that time, perhaps people who'd been in the tenants association before, didn't see that as a priority. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But the er last group of tenants found that that was a big priority and really pushed and worked till they you know to get it. [speaker003:] You mean this is the present group you're talking of? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. But er I think it er may have been started with and earlier group I don't know, but I know you know, the certainly the the final stages of the playgroup were with [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] this presents tenants' action group. [speaker003:] Mhm. Having lived on the flats, how do you feel about the fact that they're they're going to be coming down? [speaker002:] Well I'm happy that the flats are [LAUGHTER] coming down [] because I don't think that they're really fit places for people to live. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think there are much more pleasant ways of people living than than this erm set up that they have. And erm So I'm glad that the flats are coming down. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] In that way. [speaker003:] Mhm. What was it about the setup that you'd be most critical of? If you had to the real [speaker002:] I [speaker003:] key reasons for the flats. [speaker002:] I think the the the density [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] of people living in a a very small area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er the w the way erm people are put in to live like that. And you know the like erm a garden or a a small area in front of their own door, where they can put their children to play safely.... [speaker003:] having lived on the flats erm what are you views on the actual policing of them? or not? [speaker002:] Erm. Oh well to be quite truthful we didn't see the police [LAUGHTER] around very often []. [speaker003:] You didn't see them round. [speaker002:] Er you'd occasionally see two of them walking erm around, but unless there was specific for the from for them coming, erm I did see them er going into a flat. Now I don't know whether they actually broke the door down in the end, but they did gain entrance to a flat very near us, erm and they had dogs with them that night. And that was there was quite a group of police together, well with that. And there was quite a scuffle at that time. Erm but they seemed to be there for a specific purpose, but the normal day to day [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er policing of the flats, I mean they weren't erm strongly in evidence. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I would say. [speaker003:] What kind of policing policy would you actually say would have been would be suited to the flats anyway? And the fact that they were they were not seen too much I mean how do y Do you se Do you view that erm as being a good thing or not? [speaker002:] Erm Well I I mean I think it it depends on your own perspective [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] on that one. Erm for me I would feel that the police having a r a low profile, erm is more beneficial er and I think perhaps maybe, erm the community policemen type of thing, could have been helpful. Erm but I you know I don't know that that was a got off the ground very well. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er but I think you know, you've got sort of police walking around all the time, erm it can aggravate things rather than calm them. [speaker003:] [cough] Having lived in the flats but also erm from your experience erm both as a nun and a social worker, erm looking at Flats Complex. Er it obviously has a lot in common with other inner city areas. Erm what kind of response do you think is required to to help areas such as Flats? [speaker002:] Er well I think for anything erm really profitable to be h to happen, a great deal of money needs to be put into it. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I think central government needs to look at the way in which inner cities are being constantly run down and erm problems highlighted and aggravated because of the circumstances. And I think lots of need to be put in, but I think what needs to be done is to hear that the people who are actually living in the inner city, feel it is what they need. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's not just what somebody else thinks they need. [speaker003:] Yea [break in recording] So erm carrying on from where we left off, erm am I right in saying that, you feel that with areas such as this, it's very important more money's pumped in? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] What areas When I say, What areas, I mean what mean c what erm would you like the money actually to to be... used on? [speaker002:] Er well I think more could be done with erm helping people who are unemployed. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm probably sett setting up some kind of small industry, erm or co-operatives. I think that's needs to be looked at. And erm and I think something that er holding a community together. Some ways of of providing money to get resources which will erm have the kind of facilities that people want to use, and where they will come together and be together. Erm you know, not just er something that is er created and left there, it's with that erm the the thing in mind, that if if people want to have some place where they can get together, in the kind of atmosphere that they want. With something there erm of interest to them. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I think that needs to be done. But certainly I think erm with young and with the unemployed, that really is is quite a high priority to be looked at. [speaker003:] What are the consequences of erm... present policy continues and erm... areas such as this simply don't get simply don't get extra money for reductions continue to be made? [speaker002:] Mm. Well what's gonna happen is that the area will c continue to deteriorate, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the problems will just increase, and the poor and are just going to get poorer. [speaker003:] So what are the consequences... for the for areas such as this. I mean what does it mean for the actual people living here? [speaker002:] It means that they are just going to be even poorer than they are now. Erm any bit of hope that they've got erm i is going to be gradually eroded as far as I can see. And erm I think we'll be going back to the kind of erm conditions that there were in the Victorian age and in Dickens' age. And in fact some of the the erm the that you look at now, could have walked out of a Dickens novel. And i I you know, it it just looks as though erm they're trying to force more and more onto the voluntary erm centres and the voluntary organizations, to provide resources and to provide help. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it's not going to be the answer to the problem. [speaker003:] How does it make you feel, the fact that er the way that areas such as Complex have gone downhill? How does it make you feel as a person human consequence. [speaker002:] It makes me sad, it makes me angry and erm... I don't know erm what other feelings it causes in me. Erm t th certainly it makes me really angry that people have to struggle for the basics and I you know I I just don't see how people who are on long term benefits, erm state benefits, can survive without getting into serious debt.... Without getting into serious debt or going without erm things which are really necessary.... [speaker003:] Am I right in saying that you see erm the problems of areas such as this as being extremely urgent something done now? [speaker002:] Yes. Yeah. I would say that if er if the inner cities are going to be saved in anyway, it's time it's past time now for things to happen. And people are either just going to be in despair or else they're going to revolt. Gonna be on thing or the other. [speaker003:] I see. How how what way do you think it would. Having lived on the erm complex, what? [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] To the situation that people are in? [speaker002:] Well I can I can see lots of people just giving up hope and thinking, there's no way that we're going to get any better. Erm I think there might be a small group who would be prepared to fight. [speaker003:] Mhm.... Do you f you you feel that erm present government, erm do you feel that erm the other political parties what they're erm suggesting with their policies for the inner cites, do you think they're any better? [speaker002:] Well [LAUGHTER] when it goes up to election, everything is good []. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But afterwards er it's difficult to say. Erm where whether they're any different from the ones that have gone before. Erm b I mean certainly I I would think that this government erm has less care for er the poor than than other governments would have. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because they just don't seem to be aware of the difficulties, people have of living on on the breadline and under the breadline. [speaker003:] What are the things that erm in addition to extra money, one of the things that you've abdicated pretty strongly is, involving the people themselves. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Erm [speaker002:] Yeah because I don't think anything will will work unless it's what the people who are living in the circumstances and living in the situation erm, if it's not going to relevant to their lives then, you're wasting the money. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You might as well hand it to them as as as a gift. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] As give them something that's not gonna be erm of use, or something that they don't see [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] as what their needs are. [speaker003:] Mhm. How difficult do you think it wo it would be in actually involving e people in that kind of decision making. [speaker002:] I think it's difficult. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because it takes time. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It takes a lot of erm energy and a lot of support. Erm and er but I think it's it's better to take the time, and provide something that is erm what is needed, rather than to just go ahead and erm do something without referring to the people it concerns. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I think our own erm tenants' group here, is a good example of that. That although you know, erm interviewing eve if if not everybody on the flats, as many people as possible, as to what their feelings were about the flats and so on, to actually ca done all that, and involved them erm in the erm What has resulted is, the flats being vacated. Erm that took a lot of time, a lot of thought and planning. But in the end it has erm it's really paying off. And I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be done. [speaker003:] Mhm. Erm I think we covered it briefly but erm covered it perhaps in slightly greater detail when when we had the preliminary interview a few weeks ago. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Erm you spoke a erm a a bit about erm other people outside p outside people, and their response to the actual flats, the fact that erm they saw the problems of the flats as being erm linked to the people themselves. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] Erm it was basically their responsibility, the the decline rather than anything else. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Erm what do you feel about that? [speaker002:] Erm. [speaker003:] have that feeling. [speaker002:] Well the feeling is a erm a great lack of understanding of what it is to actually live erm in poverty. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er you know, I feel that people are only too ready to believe erm others you know er er to believe er others you know er er to believe the people living in the flats. And don't want to see that it's any of their responsibility, at all. that people are are forced to live in the flats, and are forced to live in on the minimum [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] amount of money that is that they could get. [speaker003:] As social work you've had quite a contact erm with people on the flats, erm living in the situation they actually most people in the flats. How does what what what impact does that have on the actual problems that they actually. To what ex what I'm saying is, To what extent has been living in the flats, has contributed the life on the flats that they're in. [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm well it certainly hasn't helped [LAUGHTER] the problems any []. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Erm the people who have problems erm I would think, because of of feeling probably the way, they feel about living in the flats or about having to live in that way, doesn't make them feel any batter about erm you know any any other particular difficulties that they're having. And erm I think, too, the sort of when you've got all people herded together, all people with problems, there are very few who can help themselves and help each other. And therefore it just becomes a heavier and heavier burden. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Whereas if erm you know, the housing policy was such that er people aren't herded together in that way, erm then people can help each other. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Areas can help each other. [speaker003:] Mhm. So what you're saying is that erm as most people are s such a high percentage of people in the flats, have pr have erm serious problems, it means it's basically th basically that all all their energy goes into actually trying to [speaker002:] Trying to survive. [speaker003:] get by themselves, survive themselves rather than being able to help others. [speaker002:] Yes I think that, jut having said the word survive, there erm, makes me think of if er they are actually surviving, but not living.... [speaker003:] And you actually having lived in the flats, you saw that erm first hand. [speaker002:] Yes. Yeah. [speaker003:] You've worked am I right in saying, have you worked on the flats You'd had contact had you, with people in the flats erm prior to [speaker002:] Yes I'd had contact [speaker003:] erm [speaker002:] with people in flats since about, ooh nineteen [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] seventy eight or so. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er [speaker003:] So actually seeing though first time, how much of a shock did it come to you, or was it just or was it expected? [speaker002:] Erm well I think you know, having a th my I think my first visit to the fl to the flat complex was a big shock. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm because I'd never actually been in the flats before. And erm come here a young girl and a baby, and helping to install her in in on one of the flats, and just sort of e th there was something erm happened to be wrong with one of the rubbish chutes at that time, and we were actually kicking our way through rubbish on the stairs, erm near the chute to to get erm to come up. And I think that really erm horrified me. That this was the way people had to live. And er but erm I think my erm sort of brief contacts with coming and visiting, when I actually came to live on the flats, erm I I knew what to expect and er and erm I wasn't I wasn't surprised at erm you know, how what the living conditions were like. [speaker003:] Mhm. How did as mo as as we've erm said, most people in the flats actually flats actually live on erm benefits, erm how how di how did people get by? I mean was it e day to day living? [speaker002:] Yes [cough] [speaker003:] Erm [speaker002:] I think it was it was day to day living and er which in some ways could be more expensive than if [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] they were able to do a bit of erm say shopping for erm a longer period. I know sometimes erm people when they got their benefit, would try and do shopping for two weeks, but even that was unrealistic of how long they were, what they were buying was going to last for two weeks. Erm and so it was sort of going to the corner shop and buying what they could, er when they had the money, and sometimes they would borrow money from somebody whose benefit came on a different day. And er to to try and tide them over. But then again, when their own benefit came, that was a chunk out of it. To start with, you know. And er so it really was a hand to mouth existence and going without. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Living on very little. [speaker003:] And yet how successful were people in getting? [speaker002:] Some people I I [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] think were erm well to be quite truthful I don't know how [LAUGHTER] they managed to exist on it [] and have a little bit for the occasional treat, erm or to have a a packet of cigarettes or whatever. Erm how they managed to to survive on it, erm you know you just you you you wonder how they can. [speaker003:] Mhm. And yet some people managed to do i Yeah [speaker002:] Because it's so little. Some people managed to do that. Yeah. but I think at greater expense because they ad to go without, quite a lot, and especially people with children. They they very seldom bought things for themselves, it was spent on the children. And I know I mean er people who just went round jumble sales erm to try and get clothing for themselves [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and for the children. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And and I'm quite sure that many of the people erm living in the flats, never had anything new. They didn't have the experience of buying something nice and new for themselves. [speaker003:] Mm. I know you mentioned something erm earlier on. Erm perhaps when we today, about erm clothing that you managed to get together [speaker002:] Yeah well I I had erm access to quite a lot of you know, quite good clothing, er both children's and adult's and erm while I didn't feel that it was that people should have to depend on someone else to give them clothing, erm in some ways it went against the grain to do it. But rather than see people going without, erm if I had access to to good clothing, I didn't see why I shouldn't give it to them. Erm because after all it wasn't their fault, but they [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] they couldn't afford erm clothing. So I I would erm you know, quite often get bags of clothes, and s we sorted them out, and give them to people with erm quite large families and erm we used to also get some for the tenants' association for the jumble sales. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'd get bags of clothing and and stuff for them. As well. [speaker003:] And what was the response of people when they actually got this? [speaker002:] Well anybody that we gave it to, they would be highly delighted to get it. And I mean that made you feel bad as well. Er [break in recording] [speaker003:] Erm you said when we left er where we left off last time, about erm about people and how delighted the they were to get second hand clothing. But that's you know, basically related to the situation that people were in. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm I know it's a fairly difficult question, a wide question to ask for that matter, but erm how do you feel with the society, should should erm should respond you know, to to in order to actually help areas such as Flats? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] It is a very wide question alright. [speaker003:] Yes it is yeah. What are the kind of things? Yes. [speaker002:] Er but certainly I I mean like, I mentioned before what a what areas like need is is erm certainly more money being put in to actually providing the facilities. Whether it's living facilities, or erm for facilities for people to use, er that certainly needs to be done. And I think erm as for you know, what we as a sho society should be doing, erm you know that's the whole economic policy, erm would really have to be looked at. And erm I think too, some ways of allowing people to have more power over their own lives, and not just being at the mercy of agencies, such as social services and erm [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know, because they don't know what their right are with And you know, I think places like the law centre, which fight for the rights of people in, you know to develop that that kind of service for people. Whereby erm we don't end up actually doing the things for them, but we show them the way that they can do them for themselves. [speaker003:] Mhm. So how [cough] how do you see the role of soci social services erm [speaker002:] At the moment? [speaker003:] Yes how do you see at the moment how do you and how how [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] How should it be, or how is it? [speaker002:] Well h how it is erm I think maybe first, er [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] a lot of our erm work is i sort of the statutory things that comes to us, either through care orders or through the court or through supervision of children in particular. Erm so a lot of our time is done in that rather then in preventive or developmental erm work. And I know that you know that that was our hope in moving into the area, that we'd be able to engage local people as volunteers and you know really develop services erm in the area. But so far, because of the other pressures that are on us, that just hasn't been able to be followed [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] through. Erm and I I I think again like, what should erm we should be doing is more of the developmental, preventive type of work. [speaker003:] Mhm. [cough] So what would that actually involve? You say you're saying preventative. Erm [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] what would that [speaker002:] erm being able to help families that erm have problems in coping with their children and so on. Rather than having to remove the children from them, to have more resources at our disposal, to either help erm parents to to develop better parenting skills, or erm [LAUGHTER] I mean, [] because a lot of the problems again are from poverty, a lot of the pressures are from poverty. And you know i if a chil a child is bruised, very often erm you know if it it especially with you know, maybe a mother who has a few children to look after, and she's on her own twenty four hours a day with them. Erm it is no wonder that she would lash out at a child. You know with the and when she doesn't know where she's going to get enough money to feed, clothe them and especially at a time like now, when all these adverts are on television for, you know the toys that children want, and they just haven't the ability to provide those those things for the children, much as they would want to do it. [speaker003:] Mhm. How much pressure do you feel people are under in Flats under to a family? [speaker002:] I think they're under a great pressure and you know th I think it's erm you know, quite amazing really, that people survive as well as they do, given the pressures they're that they are under. And you know, sort of given the given the lack of sort of environmental helps. Erm because i I mean, even living in can be a depressing experience in itself. Sort of looking out of your window and seeing just a blank concrete wall in front of you, day after day after day. Erm doesn't do much to lift your spirits if you're getting up feeling a bit down in the morning. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So that kind of pressure [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er the pressure of erm coping with children in in that kind of environment, without enough money really, and also erm you know, things like having sleepless nights because of noise and things like that, and having to get up and cope. Erm just the same as if you had had a good nights sleep. [speaker003:] Mhm. How much of a problem had the noise been? [speaker002:] Well at times,s erm you know the the noise from blues parties could be really distressing. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I mean whenever there was one in the flats, you could hear it probably throughout the whole complex. Erm but you know when it was in a block that was fairly near you, erm er I think probably children were the least affected by it, because er I think they adapt to things like that more quickly. But I mean a mother that couldn't sleep all night, and get up the next day, having to cope with the family, erm you know,thing things like that, they're very difficult. [speaker003:] Mhm. with regard to blues parties, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] erm what is your attitude towards them I mean, obviously something I suppose that people who actually take p who actually go see it as being a form of en enjoyment for them. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm yet at the same time,obvi at the same time, it's affecting other people in the actual flats, so what is the solution? [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] To that? I mean do you actually stop blues parties full stop [speaker002:] I don't think [speaker003:] or do you lose them s somewhere else? [speaker002:] Yeah I think moving them somewhere else, erm which would be a a maybe a bit further away, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] erm from where people are actually living and trying to to get a nights sleep. Erm I know I remember I spoke to erm I said in an earl the earlier part of the [speaker003:] Mm mhm. [speaker002:] interview, that we didn't have erm much sort of inroads with the the young Caribbean community or the Rastafarian community, but erm you know I have spoken to one or two, and I remember speaking to one who said, that they had gone after a warehouse somewhere. Erm I think it's somewhere down near where the Road police station is now, and erm you know they had been hoping to get premises down there. And something like that I thought would have been a very good solution. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Because they would be still free to go to their parties and they they wouldn't be affecting neighbours in that way. [speaker003:] Mhm. earlier we mentioned about erm particularly about the actual stress that can people can g in erm living in the flats and also the financial difficulties. Erm what social services erm policy say with regard to there's a certain amount of money available t say for if people came to family. And they happen to have a bill they can't pay. In that situation, social services do have certain [speaker002:] We do have erm [LAUGHTER] it's rather you know, it's it's quite a small amount [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] really when you think of the extent of the problems in the area. So erm and how we use that money is at our discretion. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] There is a certain amount of money for f families. And I mean I'm talking in matter of a few thousand pounds, to do for for a whole year. And erm so we the the way we work it out ourselves, is that we don't actually pay people's fuel bills. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] What we have done, when they've been cut off with erm electricity in particular, erm we liaise with D H S S for them to help their erm to get their their deductions made a at a level which doesn't leave them erm you know too short of money. And we also have paid for the reconnection fee. Cos usually, if it's been cut off, there's a about twelve fifty or something, to be reconnected. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] we pay the rec reconnection fee, but not the electricity bill. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And we also have given out food erm and money for food. If someone comes and they've actually run out of food, and they've you know, for some reason or other their giro is either held up or you know, they've had a big expense er which they've had to pay, then we would provide them with something. Erm to keep them to tide them over. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But at the same time, we are not er doing that, and letting D H S S out of s the the kind of provision they ought [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to be making. I think if if we just hand out money for those kind of things, then the pressure is taken off D H S S [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and that's not right either. [speaker003:] Mhm. So do you, as a social worker, have much erm do much work with D H S S? [speaker002:] Yes we we have erm a lot of connection with D H S S [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] erm you know we know the special case officers in each of the areas, and we also liaise erm on behalf of people who come in with problems to them. We also provide the facility of the telephone here. For people to make their own connections to the [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] D H S S, because very often, they either can't get telephone boxes working, or they're hanging on so long that they don't have enough money [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to put in to the box. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So you know we we provide that kind of service. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] We also you know, do our best to to get them to er pay pay up when er when when they can, but I mean we're not always successful in that. Especially now with the single payments being cut back so drastically. [speaker003:] Mhm. And what kind of impact is that likely to have, the cutback on single payments? [speaker002:] Well it I mean already, it is having quite an im impact erm especially for items like furniture and bedding, and I mean bedding doesn't last for ever, especially with a family, and I know erm they're allowed every so often, but erm I mean I think erm the the cutbacks are becoming more and more and more and and people seem to be which means that we have to look around for voluntary erm agencies that ca such as, who can provide us with furniture or beds and bedding.... [speaker003:] So that's erm in areas such as Flats and the effects are pretty serious [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] the ch the change in policy. [speaker002:] Yes. Yeah. [speaker003:] Mhm. How does it make you feel, you know as a social worker, erm when whatever you in whatever you do, every you do, no matter how effective you are, that you're That when you leave those people, they're in they're basically in that same situation and equally v and still vulnerable. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm [speaker002:] Erm well it doesn't make you feel very good. [LAUGHTER] Er I mean, I I would say that the majority of people in this office, carry a lot of erm anxiety and pressure home with them. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er just because of this, you know, precise thing. That erm you know, whatever you do, is very little, and we're not really taking the pressure off, very much. [speaker003:] Mhm. I know that erm that we haven't real haven't covered in great deta detail is erm, how you yourself became a social worker and career background. Erm so erm you've been a social worker for how many years? [speaker002:] I've been a social worker since nineteen seventy, so ten years this year. [speaker003:] Ten years? [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm I went into residential social work first, erm but that was after twenty years of teaching erm in various parts of the country, I was in, Bradford, and then I spent seven years in Africa, where I also erm was a teacher, and when I came back from Africa, I was asked if I would just replace someone that was going on a course, in a residential er the mother and baby home it was actually. And so I said, Yes, I would do that for the year and then I'd get back into teaching. But when I actually erm got into the social work side of it, and i saw what the needs there were, erm and it was at the particular time too when you know, lots of teachers were sort of being made redundant, or at at least the er the numbers in schools weren't so high. And I felt that that there was more pressure in social work than there was in teaching. There was a greater need for social workers. So I spent two years in the mother and baby home, then, and decided that if I was going to stay in social work, then I would erm be better a able to help people if I could do it from the theoretical background as well as the feeling erm background er of my own my own personal feelings. Erm so I did the two year C C Q S W course. I went back to the mother and baby home, for another almost two years, and from there that was I think I said at the beginning, how I actually was introduced to Flats, and it was actually living at the mother and baby home, doing far more work with girls [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] who moved out, that led me to want to live in the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you the fact that you actually lived in the flats few years er at the same with you working on the flats as well. How much of a benefit has that been, the fact that people are seeing you i as a as a professional who you know, who works for social services, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] living amongst amongst that, I mean [speaker002:] Erm but the first year that I was in the [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] flats, I was I was working erm in with a voluntary agency. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] I wasn't actually with Social Services. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Although I was doing the same kind of of erm work. And then, as the job came up with Social Services, and I joined it, I did have some reservations, because I felt that maybe people would see me as sort of having deserted them and joined [LAUGHTER] them [], you know, er brilliant movie? Thank you. [advert] [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] but for what I am. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er that they they still, even when I have to do things, which are not very erm happy either for me or for them, erm I'll just give the example of removing a child from [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the parents, erm well that is very difficult on both sides. Erm I I still feel that there is an element of trust that people have in me, erm because of having lived with them. [speaker003:] Mm. Mhm. But I mean, how how often does that happen anyway? is that I presume that's very much a last resort. [speaker002:] It's ve Yeah, very much a last resort and it's usually, erm as a result of ill treatment. You know, that that that [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] that we would have to do that. And not always, you know, it's not always the parents who have who have erm either bruised the child or something but [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] perhaps they've left them with someone who has done that. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You know the kind of erm the kind of accident that can happen. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm and you know there's er you know really er it's something that we're not the only ones who make the decision. While we actually do the a the removal, we usually have other agencies with us such as the N S P C C, the police, who have to carry out the investigation into what has actually happened, and erm in the end the court. Because if the court doesn't say that, Yeah, this child must remain in care, erm you know. But we actually do the removal. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And er you know that's quite traumatic. [speaker003:] Mhm. Have there been many cases on the flats or has this been a [speaker002:] Well Er erm dunno that I mean, there have been some in the area, which haven't been that flats as well. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You know. Erm in my own, particular case, I have done it twice. [speaker003:] Mhm. Mhm. Is there any... danger that erm that it could happen more, er that you could have the same happening say in Flats as a similar thing happening say in erm more middle class areas, such as, yet erm... there being more risk of of it of it of erm parents losing the child, say in some areas such as Flats, and yet in, [speaker002:] Erm [speaker003:] somehow that [speaker002:] Well I I I would say that if it comes to the attention of Social Services, that we would treat it the same. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] In that we would go through the same procedure, whether they lived in [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] or in. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm you know, we're not out to get [LAUGHTER] to get them. And I think that's the you know, a general feeling, that's not just me. You know from knowing how it affects other [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] workers as well. [speaker003:] Mhm. Yeah would you would you say that it's erm it's A, more of a problem in places such as Flats, anyway than than say? Is it is it any more problem there? [speaker002:] Well I would say that the people in Flats are under greater pressure. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And you know, I would say that erm because of the pressures, it is likely that people [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] erm might lash out more. It's not surprising considering [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the pressures. [speaker003:] Mhm. But that's but that's erm not particula not because of the people, it's actually [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] because of the environment those people are, isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah.... I would think that. [speaker003:] Mhm.... Erm do you know you you've you spoke erm earlier erm about the church, erm... [cough] how do you see how so you se do you see the role of the church, erm in ar in er inner cities? What what do you think they could do do? [speaker002:] Erm well I think, what they have to do first, is [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] is to align themselves with the people. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm and I think actually being part of them and you know like, inner city churches, living right the you know the vicar's and the the congregation's not just coming from say to, but actually living in the area. And er just sort of by their lives, becoming relevant as well. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I I think I must say that i it's well certainly in Nottingham, my experience is that the church of England is and perhaps other churches, are more aware of this than the catholic church is. Even though i belong to the catholic church, that's my feeling, erm and my experience, I would say, since living in. [speaker003:] Mhm. So is that I mean [cough] to what extent do you feel erm the ch the church generally has moved along the road that you'd like to see it? Move. [speaker002:] Erm it's it's moving, I think, slowly. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] First of all it's becoming aware [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it's becoming aware that people who live in the inner cities are not bad. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That a lot of it is due to the the living conditions and the unemployment and all the rest of it. I think, and once the awareness is there, then the movement can begin. And I think that's what is happening. [speaker003:] Mhm. [recording ends]

[John:] So direct proportionality. [Ian:] And inverse. [John:] Not too too much trouble with that. Okay if erm so one of the questions that comes up a lot is speed and distance and time. And that's a good example of both types there. So let's say we keep the erm You've got to get from here to Birmingham. If you go faster, erm what happens to the time it takes? [Ian:] Less time. [John:] Right. So if I go twice as fast, does that mean it's gonna take me twice as long to get there? [Ian:] No. [John:] No. So it's inversely proportional. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] If I go twice as fast, it'll take me one over two, so that's a half as long. Okay right. If I go ten times as fast, I get there in one tenth of the time. And that's all it is. That's all the inverse proportionality. Direct proportionality, if I'm driving at a steady sixty miles an hour, how far would I go in erm one hour? Sixty miles. How far would I go in ten hours, if I'm going at a steady sixty miles an hour? How far would I go? Doing sixty miles every hour, and I keep going for ten hours. So [Ian:] Six hundred, [John:] So so I do six hundred miles. Erm If I've got sixty miles to do, and I do it at erm do it at sixty miles an hour, it takes me one hour. If I do it at half the speed, just do it at thirty miles an hour, how long will that take? [Ian:] Two hours. [John:] If I do it at half the speed. Trying to cover a a distance. Trying to cover sixty miles, okay, Trying to cover sixty miles so I do it again at sixty miles an hour. Takes one hour. Now if I do it at half that speed, if I do if I drive at thirty miles an hour, how long will it take me to do the sixty miles? [Ian:] Two hours. [John:] Right. Two hours. So this is the speed and distance and time thing gets very confusing, because some of it is direct proportional, right so the faster you go, the more distance you could travel in a fixed in an hour say. Obviously sixty miles an hours means if you keep going for an hour, you do sixty miles. Thirty miles an hour, keep going for an hour you'll only do thirty. So how far you go is directly proportional to how fast. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] If you say, How far would you go in an hour, keep the time fixed so we're not changing all three things, cos then it's really confusing. So keep one of them fixed. Change another one. So it's keep the first one fixed, change the second one, and see how the third one changes. And most of it If you try and do it with sort of the squiggles on the paper. equations this one go on the top or the bottom of the fraction or what? But if you just back off bit. And you think, Well hang on let's just do it a bit of common sense. And apply it to say driving along at steady speeds, then you can work a lot of it out for yourself. And erm you'll get should get happier with that. So let's try a few examples. Erm for you to do. When I say let's try, I mean you can try some. So if we've got let's say sixty miles an hour. A fixed speed of sixty miles an hour. And we want to travel a hundred a hundred and twenty miles. How long will that take? [Ian:] Two hours. [John:] That will take two hours. And suppose I go twice as fast. Right double the speed, if I drive at a hundred and twenty. Now how long w will it take me. [Ian:] One hour. [John:] That's only half the time it took me last time. So that's a half of two, which is one hour. Okay so here. Twice the speed. Erm what would happen if I drive at a tenth of the speed? One tenth of the speed.... I drive at six miles an hour. Hey?... it's the original time, which was two hours, is times it's times a tenth. No No is that right? What's going on here? If I drive at a tenth of the speed, is it gonna take me longer or is it gonna take me is it gonna be quicker? [Ian:] Longer. [John:] It's gonna be longer, so it can't be a tenth of it. [Ian:] No. [John:] Right, here we went at twice the speed, and it finished up half the time. Now we're driving a tenth of the speed, so it's going to be one over one tenth. Which is ten times. So it would take me twenty hours of I drive at six miles an hour. [Ian:] Yeah, [John:] Right. And that ties up When you get it like this a tenth of the speed. What we've got now is, it's directly proportional, but they've got a fraction in. [LAUGHTER] So it's making it look like inverse proportion and the first thought is, Oh it l er er oh. Well it'll take a tenth of the time wouldn't it. No it takes ten times as much. half the speed, it'll take you twice as long. Erm that's thinking of a steady speed. That's a fixed speed. I'm just sort of rushing through this a bit, and I'm trying to show where the where most people get it wrong. Erm and so you can watch out for those the traps. Now if it's a fixed distance, fixed distance, let's say we're going to go, a hundred and twenty miles. Right, and we're not gonna change the distance now, we're keeping that fixed. If we drive at... sixty miles an hour. Erm we've done the time there. Right. Er... Right. What are we do Hang on, let's just check what we're doing with this. Fix First one we did was fixed speed, sixty miles an hour, we go double the speed, so what happens to the time? Er that should have been a fixed a fixed distance there. Fixed distance.... A fixed distance er sixty miles say. Er say a fixed distance of a hundred and twenty miles. That's more like it. Okay. And it we drive it at sixty miles an hour, for two hours. Now if we keep the distance er let's see that was the fixed distance. If we keep the speed fixed now we have Do the one I should have done first. Fixed speed of sixty miles an hour. Okay.... And we'll try How long would we go in how far in one hour? [Ian:] Sixty miles. [John:] Right. Okay. How far in erm... three and a half hours?... [Ian:] A hundred and fifty miles an [John:] That was very good. That was brilliant yeah. Yeah exactly. How did you work that out? [Ian:] Well it's double that hang on [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [John:] it's close. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] How far would we go in three hours? At a steady sixty miles an hour. How far would we go? [Ian:] A hundred and eighty. [John:] Right. So we'll go a hundred and eighty in the first three hours. And how long would we go in the last half hour? [Ian:] Thirty. [John:] And we'd do another thirty miles. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. So two hundred and [Ian:] Two hundred and ten. [John:] Two hundred and ten miles we do. Now you can do that straight off. Instead of doing it a bit at a time, we can just multiply it. And say three and a half times sixty. Just do it that way which is what you'd normally do, on your calculator, you'd just do sixty times three point five. Now that's that's a very quick look. Erm don't worry if you don't understand it all. Now hove you got the problem that you had? [Ian:] Yeah I've got it here. [John:] Well look through that and I wa what I want now is if you, can try and work your way through it. Without Okay. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] Go on. [LAUGHTER] You haven't seen it yet. [] [John:] Well er if it's a messy one, the first thing to do with it, is to split it up into little bits. I noticed. [Ian:] This one. A and B are okay. I can get that. [John:] Ah. [Ian:] It's C and D. [John:] Right. [reading] Six swallows ate three hundred flies in five hours. Complete the following.... Six swallows eat sixty flies in how many hours? Right. And how many swallows would eat six thousand flies in five hours? [] Right erm... Okay talk about it. You said A and B were okay. How did you do A? [Ian:] Yeah. Well you had six eating three hundred, so yo I divided three hundred by six. And timesed it by thirty. And that gave me how many flies were gonna be eaten. [John:] Okay and why why did you divide it that way round? [Ian:] Cos the number of flies into swallows. [John:] Okay. So this is a bit like the speed and the distance and the time and things isn't it. All combined. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... so we need really equations for all of these. Cos they're like if you like. So let's have a look at it could you could you find out from the the question here, six swallows ate three hundred flies in five hours. Can you find out how many flies, one swallow would eat in one hour?... Or could you find out how many flies one swallow would eat in five hours? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? How would you do that? So we've got six swallows eat three hundred flies in five hours. Okay. How many would one eat in five hours?... Okay? [Ian:] Fifty. [John:] Right. So one swallow would eat fifty in five hours. How much would one swallow eat in one hour then? [Ian:] Ten. [John:] Okay so you you you've got it now, that one swallow eats one fly erm sorry eats ten flies [Ian:] Ten flies in one hour. [John:] In an hour. [Ian:] I'll write that down. [John:] Okay so write that and then we'll check it.... Right. Now let's check it. Let's see if it gets back to what they said there. Six swallows erm would they How many would six swallows eat in one hour? [Ian:] Sixty. [John:] Okay. So we that'll just we multiply that by six. or how much six swallows would eat. And you get sixty. Right and how much would they so if they if these six swallows are eating sixty [Ian:] Three hundred. [John:] in one hour. [Ian:] Erm. [John:] That's it. [Ian:] Er in five hours. [John:] Right so... if we're looking at what what are they they asking for here? How long will they take and how many swallows, and on this one how many flies. Right.... So which which ones are proportional to what? If you've got more swallows, do more flies get eaten? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] And if you've got more time, for them to eat, do more flies get eaten? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So they're both directly proportional. Okay. Now just talk about C. Now that you've worked out how many one swallow eats in one hour. [Ian:] [whispering] Swallows. []... Er [John:] How many would they eat in How many would six swallows east in one hour? [Ian:] Sixty. [John:] Okay. It says here six swallows eat sixty flies in [Ian:] Six hours. [John:] how many hours? [Ian:] Six hours. [John:] Well we've got here, we've got one swallow eats ten flies in one hour. Okay. We have six times as many swallows, if we have six swallows. Just write down how many six swallows will eat in one hour. So just write it as six times ten or ten times six. Okay. Are you happy with that? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] One of them will eat ten flies every hour, so if we got six of them it'll be ten times six. In one hour. And that comes to sixty, and the question here is six swallows eat sixty flies in how many hours? So what's the answer to that one? [Ian:] One hour. [John:] Just one hour. Okay. So you've done C. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Now D. How many swallows would eat six thousand flies in five hours? Well six of them eat three hundred right. If they going to get through six thousand, are you going to need more swallows or less swallows? [Ian:] More swallows. [John:] Okay. So have a guess at what you multiply or divide by there. Just to, not sort of working out just what what you see it it probably is. [Ian:] Six thousand divide by three hundred. [John:] That's it. Six thousand divided by three hundred. Erm and what about the six, that's where that comes in and starts confusing things isn't it? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So if you just did, six thousand divided by three hundred. It wouldn't tell you how many swallows, it would tell you how many lots of six swallows would east that. [Ian:] Then you multiply it by six. [John:] Then you have to you've got what your your answer Let let's say, we keep our swallows in cages. Right six swallows in each cage. And we sort of go and feed them three hundred flies, every five hours. And then somebody comes along and says, Oh we've got a some big order on, we're got to feed them six thousand flies, in five hours. So you first thing you says, Well how many cages are there then? One cage one cage of swallows get through three hundred in five hours, so six thousand divided by three hundred. That would be the number of cages of [Ian:] Cages. [John:] swallows. That [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] you'd need to get through the six thousand flies. And then you say, Now how many how many swallows in a cage? And you said multiply by didn't you. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Sorry that's right. Yeah, multiply by. So... six thousand... Yeah it's alright problem. Six thousand by... divided by... [Ian:] Three. [John:] three hundred, tells you how many cages you need. And there's six swallows in every cage, so when you get that answer, you just multiply it by six. So you want to work that one out? What that'll come to? And er just sort of work it out on here cos a lot'll cancel.... We'll start from, six swallows eat three hundred. Yeah. Are you are you are you happy with this, or am I confusing you. I think I'm confusing [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] you actually. [Ian:] No I get I get... the idea there. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] [whispering] Six thousand divide by that. [] Yeah I get that. [John:] Mm. [Ian:] That. I don't know what you mean by cancelling down though. [John:] Ah. [Ian:] You know I I I've cancelled down before but you know in this like. In [John:] Right. [Ian:] down like this. Never cancelled d I've cancelled down like equations and things. [John:] Right If you're cancelling down. You were doing erm six thousand divided by three hundred, that tells you how many cages and there's six swallows in every cage, times six. Okay. Now this was flies that the old ones ate flies the new ones ate. There's going to be eating more flies, so you need more swallows, so that looks the right way up. And we weren't thinking about how many one ate, we were thinking about how many six ate. So it'll take more of them. So we can cancel that. Divide three by a hundred. Sorry divide three hundred by a hundred. What do we get? [Ian:] Three. [John:] And divide this by a hundred, what do we get? [Ian:] Sixty. [John:] Okay and then divide that by three? [Ian:] One. [John:] And that by three. [Ian:] Three. [LAUGHTER] No no. [] [John:] How many threes in six? [Ian:] Two. [John:] Okay.... So it just comes to? [Ian:] A hundred and twenty. [John:] A hundred and twenty. Erm don't bother about that about the cancelling. Erm, no. Do it do it on your calculator, just put the figures in and do it. But then think about it when you got your answer, if it seems okay. [cough] Er... this is this is the one that you get a lot. About cars doing journeys. And this is the other big one that you get about erm... food. That's the other one too. Four men do a job in twelve hours. How many men would it take to do the job in two hours?... Right.... This sort of thing. [reading] Twelve men build a wall in eight hours. How long would it take four men to do it? [] So let's just talk about that without doing erm a particular... example. Er... Twelve men... take So they're building a wall or something. Twelve men take eight hours. Okay? Erm how many men would we need if we wanted it built in four hours. Just to just to guess at it without sort of working it out. What would you say?... [Ian:] S Twenty four men. [John:] Right. If you want it done in half the time, you've got to have twice as many people. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Erm... that's inverse proportion, that's the hard one, and I think you understand what you're doing. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Very well actually in there. Erm... you'll see a lot of them like this. Four men. Try try nine. Completely on your own then. Four men do a job in twelve hours. How many to do the job in two hours?... [Ian:] Forty eight men? [John:] Now how did you work it out? [Ian:] Well it takes fo four men, twelve hours to do the job. So in two hours, you've got to have... twelve times as many men as you've already got. [John:] Oh. where do you get your twelve from? [Ian:] Here. [John:] Let's let's make it a slightly different problem. Lets' say, erm four men take twelve hours. Okay. How many men would you need to do the job in six hours? [Ian:] Eight men. [John:] Right. You only spend half the time, you have twice as many men. How long how many how many men would you need if you want it done in a quarter of the time? If you wanted it done in three hours?... [Ian:] Twelve men. [whispering] Twelve men. []... [John:] Let's let's forget about the numbers. Let's say we don't know how many men there's erm just one gang of men. So we dunno how many men in a gang. And it takes them twelve hours to do this job. And the foreman comes up and says, Oh want this job in half the time. So we need two gangs to do it. If he comes up and he says, Well we want this job done in a quarter of the time. [Ian:] Four times. [John:] Four times as many. He says, We want this job done in a tenth of the time. [Ian:] Ten times. Yeah. [John:] Ten times as many. If he says, Oh well, this isn't a rush job, we want this job to take twice as long as usual. [Ian:] Shorten the half the [John:] That's it. Just have half the number of men working on it and then it'll take twice as long. Okay. Now in this case, four of them will take twelve hours. Let's say four men is one gang. So forget about you know, like think of a cage of swallows. That's one gang. So one gang of men take twelve hours. What we want is only two hours. So how many gangs are we going to need.... Are we going to need more men or less more gangs or less gangs? To get it done in [Ian:] More gangs. [John:] We're going to do more. Going to need more. So we want to do this is in a sixth of the time, right? We want it done... two twelfths of the time. That's how many gangs erm that's two twelfths of the time, so it's one sixth. This is one sixth of the time. Now we want this job in one sixth of the time. That is takes on gang to do.... [Ian:] Six more gangs. [John:] So we'll need six gangs all together. [whispering] Okay? [] Cos that comes to one sixth. We need six gangs. One sixth of the time. So six gangs. Okay. And then you can think of I mean this is this is just sort it can be there to confuse you while you're sorting out the time. And when you're sorted it out, they want six gangs, so that's six times four. So we need... twenty four men [Ian:] Twent [John:] on that one. there's four men in in that gang. Now going back to it. So that was four men do it in twelve hours, how many in two. Erm let's see if. Oh that's that's nasty that, because they've got six in both of them. Six women do a job in eight hours. How many women will it take to do the job in six hours?... [Ian:] [whispering] Two. []... [John:] Think about that one. Are you going to need more, more women or less women? [Ian:] More women. [John:] Gonna need more. So which way up is the fraction going to go? The first thing to do is forget about the six for a minute. Right It's not six women, it's one gang.... Right one gang take eight hours.... So how many gangs are you going to need, to get this job done in six hours?... [Ian:] Well two gangs are gonna get it done in four hours. [John:] Right two gangs in four hours, so we don't need two whole gangs. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So that'd be too many. So one gang takes eight hours. How many gangs would take six hours? This is where it's the inverse proportion. It's going to take eight over six.... Right? Eight over six which comes to? One and one and a bit gangs. That seems to that looks sensible it seems to. So it's eight over six gangs.... And how many in a gang? [Ian:] Six. [John:] Six. So the number of women that we'll want, is eight over six, times six. That'll just cancel that. And we finish up with eight women. Well that's interesting, because six women do the job in eight hours, and it would take eight women to do it in six hours.... So if we had something like that page. Have you ever heard of the term, man hours? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] It takes so many man hours. Erm like to... decorate a house well no let's say in in a factory, there's erm they've a rush order, they want to get some stuff out and they're going to need another hundred and twenty man hours. to get this job done. Now man hours, is just men times hours. And if you look at this, I mean this is actually women hours, but if you look at that. See what happened with this one that we worked out. Four men do the job in twelve hours. How many man hours do we need altogether? How many man hours does this job take?... [Ian:] Four times twelve. [John:] That's it four times twelve. So number nine, the job takes, four men times twelve hours equals four times twelve man hours. Okay. Now if I wanted this job done in six hours, how many men would I need? [Ian:] Er [John:] Four men take twelve hours. I want the job done in six hours. [Ian:] Eight men. [John:] I'd make I'd take eight, be twice as much. Now if I said, how long would three men take to do it? It's a bit awkward isn't it. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] But one way of looking at it is, Well the job takes forty eight man hours. Forty eight man hours. So how long, how many hours would three men have to work, before they'd made up forty eight man hours? [Ian:] Forty eight divided by three. [John:] Right. So three men times X if you like, X hours, equals forty eight man hours. And you can all of these, all of the ones where they say, so many men or women take so long to do a job, how many. You can do them all, just be looking at that. You see multiply what they give you. Right. The men times the hours. And that's fixed. That's how many man hours, that job takes. And then if they say, Well so three men would take forty eight divided by three hours. Yeah? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay e divided each side by three, X equals forty eight over three. Erm... It takes forty eight man hours. If I said, I want this job done in two hours. How would you work it out? The job takes forty eight man hours, and I want it done in two hours. So how many men would we need? [Ian:] Forty eight hours. Well that's three men.... [John:] Yes when when there were three men Right when there were three men, that's how many hours it took. Now a different problem, erm it still takes forty eight man hours, but this time how many men to do the job in two hours?... Is it going to take more men or less men to get this job done? [Ian:] More men. [John:] Mm. So you can work it that way, you can think of that as a check. But the easy way, as I say, is to just concentrate on the man hours. This job, whatever it is, it takes forty eight man hours. [537 1] So if you multiply the number of men, by the h number of hours they work, it's going to always come to forty eight. So if you'd like er we don't know how many men. Let's say it's X. X times two hours has got to be equal to [Ian:] Forty man hours. [John:] Right that's got to be And that's X men times fo times two hours equals forty eight man hours. That's man hours. Okay. Divide each side of your equation by two hours. X men is equal to forty eight man hours. Over two hours. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Right. [Ian:] I see that. [John:] The hours go Oh lovely. Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Do you want that window shut? [John:] I'm fine as long it's not too noisy for you. [speaker001:] Are you sure? If No I'm thinking of you you know erm [John:] Great fine okay. [speaker001:] if you want to shut it anyway just get up okay. [John:] Thanks. Yeah. No I like the fresh air. Okay so the hours would cancel off there. How many twos in that? Twenty four. So you take twent twenty four men to do the job in two hours. [Ian:] In two hours. [John:] Now how many man hours would we use up, if we had twenty four men working for two hours? We'd have twenty four [Ian:] Forty eight. [John:] That's it. Twenty four times two, man hours. So any of th this is a very common problem that you get. So many men digging a ditch, building a wall, digging a hole, whatever it is. And you just, they always tell you, so many men take so long to do it. Well how many man hours. So try one completely on your own. I won't say a word this time. I ant you to do the lot. And I'll turn that over so you can't see that. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay? Erm and I want you to tell me what you're thinking and how you're going through it and So let's see if I can find one of those. Er here we are, the first one here. Fifteen men can build a wall in six hours. Oh it's too easy this cos you can do it in your head. Erm... right this is better. Four men can build a shed in nine hours. Okay? How long would it take six men?... [whispering] Keep going. [] [Ian:] [whispering] Alright. Nine hours. [] Erm... Four divide by nine, multiplied by six. [John:] Okay. Now that's that's just sort of coming out with the answer. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but how did you get to it? [Ian:] Because, I want to find out how many men it'd take you to do the job in one hour. It's not that. [John:] Yes. Yeah. That's one way of looking at it. How many men would you take to do the job in one hour sort of thing is you're working out how many man hours th are there in this job. Okay, you just multiply the number of men, times the number of hours, and that gives you the man hours. And that doesn't change. That's always fixed. You always need so many man hours to do it. So wh wh how many man hours are there in that job? [Ian:] Four times nine. [John:] Right. Four times nine man hours to do the job.... So how many hours So that comes to? [Ian:] Thirty six. [John:] Yeah. Thirty six man hours in this job.... [Ian:] Okay. [John:] And how many hours would six men have to work for before they worked thirty six man hours?... If six men worked for one hour, they's work six man hours wouldn't they. If they worked for if six men worked for two hours they'd work [Ian:] Six hours. [John:] for Right. Six hours. So if mix six men work for six hours, they'll produce thirty six man hours. Which is what we want. Okay. So the way the way of doing it. The men times the hours gives you the man hours. And then you divide that. So same problem now. Six men take nine hours to do it. Ah this is no good, I want this job done erm in four hours.... How many men are you going to need?... [Ian:] Thirty six and divide that by four [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] and that'd give you the number of men. [John:] Right that's it. And then what will that come to?... [Ian:] Nine men. [John:] Yeah. The men times the hours when whenever you whenever you get your answer, you can check that your men times the hours must still still be the same as it was when you when they gave you the question. So if four men take nine hours, nine men will take four hours. Yeah. And they sometimes put it that way round. There was one in erm here where they'd done that. Erm and they did that with the women. Six women take eight hours. How many wonem women would you need to do it in six hours? Well the women times the hours, it takes six times eight women hours to do this. Man hours if you like. It's still gonna take six times eight, but this time the six is the hours so the eight will be women. And doing it on man hours is er an easy way. Erm you probably need to practise a bit. To think of it that way. So that you're not think, Oh You're first thought cos I know the way you you were working, you're thinking Oh if I just double that, half it or take a third of it or something like that. And it doesn't always work out. Sometimes if you get an easy one, fine, you could do it that way. But erm the easi easiest way of the lot is, Well, how much work does this job take? It takes either three men working at ten hours. That gives yo thirty man hours. Or ten men working for three hours, that still gives you thirty men hours. Or fifteen men working for two hours, two men working for fifteen hours. As long as the men time I mean, perhaps it would take sixty men working for half an hour. As long as it comes to the same man hours, then that's it. Cos that's how you measure jobs when you in erm When you're sort of managing projects or something or so many man hours to build this and then so many man hours to do this and then so many man hours to do that. And they always talk about man hours. Erm Do you want to try another one? This time, absolutely no no help at all. I'll just look out the window. But you t say what you're doing. Don't just go for the figures. Come sort of some of the words describe why you're doing what you're doing. Cos it'll help you to erm say what you're doing, and probably to write it down, some of it as well. Rather than just go don't forget if you write it down and you've got the right method. If you get the answer wrong, you can still get some marks. But if you don't write anything down apart from just the answer. If you just put the figures in the calculator and write it down and it's wrong or this one times that one. Erm did we do that one? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] We did that one. Okay. [reading] A farmer employs twelve men [] So number number seven. [reading] Twelve men will take ten days, how long would five men take? []... [Ian:] Twelve men... Twelve men times ten days. A hundred and twenty [John:] Man days. [Ian:] man days. [John:] That's it... [Ian:] erm How long would it have taken five men? A hundred and twenty divided by the five men. [John:] That's it.... So a hundred and twenty over five men. Right. Will take five days. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Sorry will take [Ian:] No. Yeah any [John:] Yeah will take five days.... when you multiply that one by that one, it's got to come to a hundred and twenty man days again. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Cos that never changes the does it. Erm have a go at this one. Erm eight men Is this one you've done? [Ian:] No er well I [John:] Okay try try it this way with the man hours anyway. Erm or the man days in this case. Eight men take six days.... how long would twelve Right. Go on. Good. That's excellent. You don't go on to the next bit till you've worked that one out. Erm and a lot of the time you don't need to multiply it out. It's it's better for the working if you just you know show what you're going to do there. That's it. Eight times six man days. Now even if you put that in your calculator and you get it wrong, and you get fifty or something. Then you're going to get a lot of the marks for it, because they can show [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] that's what you mean. So [Ian:] Right. So long would it take twelve men. [whispering] eight six [] Twelve men.... [John:] Okay.... Now you've got your you've got your twelve [Ian:] Now I'm stuck here. [John:] Right okay. It's now now we've switched round differently. There we were sort of trying to find out how many men. But here we know how many men... take how many days?... And it's this this thing here. But it's that's how many days they took.... Because how many man days will it be now? It'll be twelve men times [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] that many days. And the twelves' ll cancel and you'll finish up with eight by six again. eight times six. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] get this sorted out. [break in recording] [John:] it tends to stick on, it's never done that, I don't think, yet. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Now, have you had a chance to look at anything since last time? [Chris:] I haven't and I've I've meant to, but [John:] Ah. you know [Chris:] I've been like mad mad busy w one thing and another. [John:] Yeah. Oh I know what it's like. [Chris:] Even of an evening. Well mainly cos of me mum of an evening, cos she's not been too good, so I've been up and down. [John:] Oh isn't she? Yeah. Yeah it's erm [Chris:] Can't seem to get a chance. [John:] It's really [Chris:] I mean I want to [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] to get i and do some of this and do these [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] problems, [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] it's getting the time to do it. [John:] But you need to be [Chris:] Mm. [John:] When we cover something in the lesson, you need to go over it yourself, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] work out the exercises in it, erm maybe get a little bit stuck, sort it out yourself, and then think, Oh yeah [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] I know I see how you do it. And maybe if you're totally stuck, then I can go through it again next time, but [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It's really the more you do [Chris:] Mm. [John:] on your own. Because when it [Chris:] Well [John:] comes to the [LAUGHTER] exam you're gonna be on your own []. [Chris:] Yeah. I'll have I mean I'm having er a weekend in Lytham so I might er take stuff up with me, you know for for the odd [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] revising. Kids are on the beach and that. So I can work I I can still work through on these ones. [John:] Okay. You happy with the trig then? [Chris:] Erm yeah I'd I'd say it's trig and geometry and the bearings, using trig with the bearings is the [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] thing that I need to [John:] Okay. [Chris:] Cos I know they're the things that seem to [John:] Okay. [Chris:] have the big marks on. [John:] Take a take a bearing on me then, if North is that window. [Chris:] [cough] Erm North's that window, [John:] Right yeah, don't forget, go [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] clockwise even though it means coming the long way round [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] They put it on every question and they all come out of the exam and they say, Oh it was fifty degrees wa No, it was all the way, it was three hundred and ten. Oh. There goes the marks on that one. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So if you remember nothing else, remember that one. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] to make sure you go clockwise. Okay, have you come across anything else that you've I suppose you haven't had, you haven't been coming across much at all. [Chris:] No. I mean I had act I wanted to er hopefully have a fortnight off before the exam, to revise, but the way this work'looking, I don't what I'm going. [John:] Mm. [Chris:] I'm definitely gonna take a few days off, but I wanted [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] to get into it properly. You see I've not really got the same trouble with English, because well English is a written thing isn't it, [John:] Yeah, and you've been doing that for many many years, English [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] haven't you? [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Yeah. Erm [John:] Right so right. So you're okay on graphs, because there's usually a question on graphs which er if you you you know if you're okay on them, pretty easy marks? [Chris:] Erm not too bad, I mean we've done a The last thing I done at at the night school, was a historogram. [John:] Okay. Yeah. [Chris:] Is that is that the right name for it? [John:] Hist hist histogram. Yeah. statistics. [Chris:] Erm there's a lot of us starting [John:] Okay, what does that mean then? [Chris:] Well I I worked out at school well actually the teacher worked out. [John:] Is is that. [Chris:] Erm no only partly finished, it would have [John:] Okay. [Chris:] gone to about here. [John:] What's [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Right. What's the main thing missing from it at the moment? [Chris:] Erm... well apart from like, the next few columns? [John:] Mm. [Chris:] ... [John:] The bit they give you marks for. [Chris:] Er [John:] What's what's this measuring up here? [Chris:] Oh right, that's erm [John:] And what's that measuring along there. [Chris:] I can't remember. [John:] Right. Now if you do that in real life [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] erm you're doing a perhaps you're doing a histogram of some jobs that you've been doing, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] to see which ones are giving you the good profits, sort of thing. [Chris:] Yeah. This this was a weight. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Weights and measures. [John:] Yeah, it can be almost anything, but if [Chris:] Mm. [John:] you haven't marked on what it is, erm and then you come make get some interruptions, which you're going to do, and you [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] come back to it next week, [Chris:] Mm. Yeah, what is that? [John:] What was this? [LAUGHTER] And it's So one of the first thing to do is to get your axes marked so that when you're putting stuff in, you know which is which. Cos you can put these the other way up. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] You know, with almost any graph, you can put them whichever way up you like. So [Chris:] I didn't do that one. [John:] No. Decide on suitable scale first. Right. And watch out with the scale on these, on histograms, and on any graphs because, what happens I mean I was watching somebody do this a couple of days ago. They're marking off along here, erm every square is two, say, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] and they go, Two, four, six, eight, twelve [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Mm er [John:] Two, four, six,f around ten [Chris:] Mm. [John:] is where most people go wrong. Two, four, six, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen [Chris:] Yeah. And [John:] and it's it's rubbish then, it's rubbish because the scale doesn't mean anything. One part of the scale it's double, and the other part it's not. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And all the results come out all wrong. And it's so s I mean it doesn't need a lo any mathematical skill at all really. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] It's just a question of you know, marking off every second square. But you'd be surprised how many people don't. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] they get it wrong. Cos it is a boring thing. And you stop concentrating, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] get it wrong. [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So erm mark your axes, work out what your scale is going to be, to fit it all on, I mean that that looks like a nice fit. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Just gone on and a little bit left over. That's fine. Erm if it'd all been down here, you could think, Oh well I can make it twice that, take it out to about here. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. That looks fine, a good fit. What about erm graphs of functions. [Chris:] [cough] Erm [John:] I think we'd better have a look at equations actually. [Chris:] I've done some Now where is it? I've done some functions. [John:] Right. Functions. [Chris:] Yeah. One function... er that that yo you're given a function, [John:] Right. [Chris:] You're told that that particular function is equal to that. [John:] Mm. [Chris:] And then they ask you to find the function, and do something with it, you have to use that function there, you have to use that in it. [John:] Mm. Well there's a definition of a function there. [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] What's a function? [Chris:] Er a function is is a set a set sum that you're given. A function of a number. [John:] Mm. [Chris:] Er as a end result that number, that's a function but you have to do something with it. [John:] Er... Mm. Tell me some of the things that happen when you're you're working out a function, what would what would be the the overall picture if someone was going to work out a function? [Chris:] Erm [John:] What would you [Chris:] Well you given the function. [John:] You're given a function, okay, whatever that is. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] It might be a bit like a rabbit or something, it's a function, right. And what would you do with it? [Chris:] Er I'd store it and use it with whatever I'm asked to use it with. [John:] So you'd be asked to use it with something. You'd be given some input. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Okay, what would you do with that input? [Chris:] I'd either, plus it, multiply it, divide it. [John:] So you'd do some mathematical operations on it. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And is that it or [Chris:] Either that [John:] Would that produce an would that produce anything? [Chris:] It'd produce a different answer. [John:] And it gives an answer, an output, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] okay. So the input comes in, the function, you do something with it, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And you get an output. So that's a sort of overall picture of a function. And what's going inside the function? Can it be anything, or what? [Chris:] Pretty much it can be anything, it could be in brackets, it could be a minus in brackets, [John:] Mhm. Okay, I'll give you a I'll give you a number. [Chris:] And [John:] Erm three hundred and sixty. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Right. You give me all its factors. Or a few factors, give me some factors. [Chris:] Er erm... well er twenty, [John:] Okay yeah. [Chris:] five, [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] erm... ten, [John:] Okay. Now is that a function? [Chris:] Mm? [John:] Is that a function, what you're doing?... I give you a number and you give me some other numbers that are tied up with it in some way. Is that a function? [Chris:] Not sure. Possibly. [John:] Right. It's not. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. What does your what does this say, for a function? [reading] When you take a number, follow a set of instructions, and end up with [] End up with what?... [Chris:] Er [John:] You'd end up with [Chris:] End up with one answer. [John:] On answer. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] If you end up with more than one answer, then it's not a function. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay, so that's the that's the big thing about it. It's an input, a set of rules to follow, that will guarantee, that you get one output. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay, erm so suppose I ask you to square the number. Whatever number I give you, you multiply [Chris:] Mm. [John:] it by itself. Okay? Three? [Chris:] Nine. [John:] Minus four? [Chris:] Minus twelve.... Twelve. [John:] Erm yeah, four fours? [Chris:] Sixteen. [John:] Okay so it's [Chris:] Sixteen. [John:] Right so if I give you minus four, you give me plus sixteen. [Chris:] Yeah because it's multiplied. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Plus four? [Chris:] ... Erm [John:] What would you give me? [Chris:] Er sixteen. [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Is that a function? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Cos you're following the instructions, and you're giving me one answer. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Now you've given me the same answer for two different inputs, but that's okay. That's fine. That's still a function. But if you're giving me different inputs, different outputs for for one input, then that's not a function. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So if I say, what's the square root of sixteen? [Chris:] And I said four. [John:] You could say, Well it's either four or minus four, which one do you want? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Two answers, so that's not a function. If I say, Well you'll give me the only ever give me the negative version of the square root, so if I give you sixteen, you give me minus four. If I give you nine, you give me? [Chris:] Er minus three. [John:] Right that's a function. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] There's only ever one answer. Or I could have been a bit less awkward, and said, you just give me the positive one. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] The plus four or the [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] the plus three. That would be a function, but a function, there's only one answer to it. thought of as a a recipe, for any number. Okay erm the input need not be a number, it can be all sorts of funny things. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And you get one funny thing as the answer. But we can, at this level, we can restrict it to numbers. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [Chris:] It's a few Xs in there and there. [John:] Right now. [Chris:] went down to like this kind of stuff here. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Twelve over three and [John:] Okay. Now the notation, do you understand the notation? [Chris:] Where's the notation? [John:] Two types of notation it gives here. A and B. [Chris:] Yeah well erm they're basically different functions different questions. [John:] Erm those are the same function. But he's given it to you in two different types of notation, and you need to know both. So w how would you read this first on? [Chris:] X squared plus four [John:] You haven't read the first bit though. [Chris:] Oh. [reading] Function X in brackets [] [John:] Mm. [Chris:] So that x, whatever you use it with, has to be X squared plus four. [John:] Mm. Okay how would you read this one? [Chris:] And that one is written out, just a different way. That's got the two dots. [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] Right. But he normally sticks to brackets rather than, he's got X is it X squared plus four, it's exactly the same. [John:] Mm. [Chris:] He's just wrote it out different. He's used the two dots [John:] Right. Okay. [Chris:] and [John:] This nota this notation, is mapping notation, because amongst other things, a function is a special case of a mapping. We won't go into [Chris:] Mm. [John:] mappings, but you can have they're very often non mathematical. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Erm you have four types of matt of mapping. And two of those types er you can they can possible be functions. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] So this is read, [reading] A function F, such that the double dot is just read as, such that, [reading] A function F such that X maps to X squared plus four []. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] So that any X any number you give to me, you give me X, I'll g say if I'm the function, if you give me X as the input, I'll give you X squared plus four. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] You give me three, as the input, I'll give you three plus four. Okay. So if you gave me six as the input, what would I do with it? [Chris:] Six squared plus four. [John:] Okay, and this is in function notation. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Where that is what the answer is, F of X. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] F of X is the answer. F of X is what F has done to X. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Someone gave it X, as its input, and it gave you, as an answer, F of X. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] And F of X in this case will be X squared plus four. Exactly the same mechanism, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] the same rules for that. It's a different notation and you [Chris:] Mm. [John:] do need to know both. Both of them mean, take a number, square it and add four. And that's your answer. Okay? [Chris:] Mhm.... [John:] When you find an answer for the function, at a particular number, erm I would [Chris:] It's called the evaluation of the function. [John:] Right. And we'll call it the and we'd have said and You find you find the value of the function, for a particular number, a particular input, a particular value of X. And that's evaluating function. Finding the value of the function. Given that F of X is X squared plus four, work out F of two. [Chris:] Mhm. That's two times two [cough] is four plus four. [John:] Okay. And all of these. F of nought. [Chris:] [cough] That's er nought squared... plus four is four. [John:] Okay. Right. Now gets interesting, and you need to know what the notation is, when you've got more than one function. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Right? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So this is where you sort of sort out if you really know what's going on. Three functions. Find F of this, G of that, H of that. And you won't have any problem with that. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay is that okay? [Chris:] These are them there. [John:] Let's have a quick look. Erm so on one, A, B and C [Chris:] This is this is one. [John:] Right. [Chris:] There. [John:] There okay. Erm [Chris:] [cough] F worked out at a half. [John:] Problems one. [Chris:] Oh. [John:] F of five? [Chris:] F of five is one. what was it, two X [John:] Right two times five okay. Right. So all these have been marked and they're okay are they? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm right. Now five [Chris:] [cough] These ones here though, I was surprised I I got them right. [John:] Mm? [Chris:] [LAUGHTER] Because I was like well it wasn't quite gelling, but I just done it anyway and it [John:] Follow the rule [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] tells you. Square it, multiply it by two, subtract, whatever it is, just do it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And you get the answer. Erm right. [Chris:] I think three might be on another page. [John:] F maps to next prime number greater than X. Find F of seven. [Chris:] What number's that, A? A on three. Well F of seven was eleven. [John:] Yeah. Right. F of seven, what's the next prime number, well it's not worth trying the evens, nine obviously isn't prime, so eleven is the next one. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. F of fourteen? It's not fifteen [Chris:] That was seventeen. [John:] Seventeen. Yeah. And F of three, next one up is five. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Ooh no. No that's erm it's not five. [Chris:] Why not? [John:] F of seven is fine, F of fourteen is fine, Right. We need two people for this, to work out this function. We're both doing the same job, we're both the same function, which is, find the next prime number up, from whatever number you're given. Now F of F of [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] three. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] You work it from the inside out. What goes into this F of, is whatever came out of that F of. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So I'll be the inside one, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] the one that works out F of three. Right so, you're the gaffer if you like, you're the outside one. You'll come along and you say, right I will I'm going to You're going to take as your input, whatever I give as output. My input was three. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And so F of three is five. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And that's what I hand on to you as your input. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. So you've now got to work out F of five. [Chris:] Function of five? [John:] And the function is, find the next prime number that's greater than. [Chris:] Well don't I just go the next one great than three? [John:] No because that's what that's not your input, that's my input. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] That's my input. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] You're waiting there, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] You can't do anything, until I've produced my output. Right I'm that first I'm that function, Mhm. And you're this one, outside the gates if you like, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] outside the brackets. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Waiting until that one's been worked out. [Chris:] Oh if that's one's five then they go to the next on e after that, which is seven. [John:] Seven. Right now... a function of a function there. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] It's the same, it's the same function. I think it's probably easier to see it, when you use a different function. Now we don't he hasn't given you any of those here. Er I'm pretty sure they do give you them. Just check the level [Chris:] Yeah he hasn't [cough] hasn't [John:] If he gives you that, if he gives you F of F, then he can give you F of G, and I'm pretty sure that you do need to know that, so I won't bother checking. I'll just give you some on those. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] And you can see what this this is in function notation, which is most commonly used, and it's easier to understand, than the mapping notation, most people find. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So think of a function, keep it nice and simple, cos you're gonna have to work it [LAUGHTER] out []. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Think of a function. [Chris:] Er X squared... [John:] F of X equals X squared [Chris:] plus ten. [John:] plus ten. Well do you want to make, do you want to make it plus one? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Plus one might be a bit easier. Okay. And I'll think of a function.... Which is three X minus two. Okay? [Chris:] Right. [John:] Okay. Now what I want you to do, is to find F of G of X. And to find G of F of X. Now we'll try a few examples first. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] With actual numbers. Before we go into that. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] What's F of... G of... three? How would you work that out, sort of talk about it before you get started. What what are you going to do with that? [Chris:] Er... m well if if function was three, it'd be [John:] Function isn't three, input, the number that's going in is three. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Right. [Chris:] G three [John:] G of three. [Chris:] G of three, G of three squared plus one. [John:] G of three. So that F has got to wait outside, the brackets, till the stuff inside's been worked out. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So we'll just leave this down here. Waiting to see [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] what it comes to. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] It's F of something. It doesn't know what yet. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Right, so what's G of three? [Chris:] G of three is er G three squared plus one. [John:] It's not G three squared. [Chris:] G of [John:] It's just No, G of three, is three squared plus on. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Right. It's very important to be precise and know exactly what you're talking about on these, cos you'll get [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] you'll just finish up with rubbish if you don't. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And it's why they put these in [Chris:] Mm. [John:] To m to sort out if you were really on top of it and know what you're doing. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Okay. So now we're looking for F of three squared plus one. And what's No we don't. That's right not right. I should have have checked that before I wrote it in. G of... G of X is three times X... [Chris:] Yeah Yeah G [John:] Three times X minus two. [Chris:] G of X is three ti three X three times X [John:] So it's three [Chris:] minus two. [John:] times three, minus two. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. Erm let's change that, let's make that four, so we don't get confused with this three that's already in there. [Chris:] Yeah okay. [John:] So it's three times X which is three times four. [Chris:] Mhm. Plus two. [John:] Okay. Minus two. G of X [Chris:] Right so it's three fours are twelve take away two is is ten. [John:] Well okay. That's what we've got so far. Now we want to do F of that. Now what does F of that come to? [Chris:] The function of that is X squared [John:] Well that's X. That lot is X. [Chris:] So it's ten squared. [John:] So it's three times four minus two, squared [Chris:] Plus one. [John:] plus one. So that's... F of G of X. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Now I'd like you that's F of G of X, to work out G of F of X. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Er the same X. G of F of three. of four sorry. So... Right. What's that going to come to? [Chris:] G [cough] [John:] That's what that's what F of X comes to, and that's what G of F G of X comes to. [Chris:] Right so first of all I work out what's inside these brackets yeah? [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] Leave the G there. [John:] Good. [Chris:] Now F of four is four squared plus one. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Yeah? [John:] Don't work ou Yeah that's great. Don't work out what that comes to, leave it as four squared plus one. [Chris:] Right. [John:] Okay.... [Chris:] So then... G... G of X er is,... [John:] Now you you can only write exactly what's on there, in here. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Because that's what G of that's G of thins number. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] And this is G of the same number. So you don't need the G on it now. When when you went from there to there, the F of four disappeared. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Cos four squared plus one, is F of four. [Chris:] Right. [John:] So when you go from there to there, the G will disappear. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] And the brackets. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. That will all disappear. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Hello [speaker001:] Hi. [John:] How are you then? [speaker001:] Fine thanks. [John:] having a nice rest are you? [speaker001:] Well [LAUGHTER] I am now now anyway []. [John:] I mean, you know in general, are you sort of sitting back, you know, letting the house run itself and everyone rushing round. [speaker001:] Oh well not quite really no. [John:] You get some troublemakers here sometimes don't you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Thanks very much for [speaker001:] Okay. [John:] the coffee.... So... what would G of seven be, it would be three times seven minus two. But what's G of this lot? [Chris:] Well is it I'd have to work it out wouldn't I? [John:] No. [Chris:] Four fours are sixteen but th that would be seventeen. [John:] Okay do it like that. [Chris:] So it'd be three seventeen minus two. [John:] Right so write it as about here write it as three times seventeen, minus two. Okay, but there's no reason why you can't write it as We're doing G of F of, that was F of, and G of is [Chris:] G of F of [John:] That's X so we've got three times, four squared plus one. [Chris:] Yeah. Minus two. [John:] Minus two. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah Okay? Right. [Chris:] That's I put them just [John:] That's fine. Now [Chris:] So it helps to put that in the brackets. It helps to put that in a smaller bracket, when I go three times that, minus that. Yeah. [John:] Right. G of... F of X is going to be what? It's going to be G of What's F of X? [Chris:] X squared plus one. [John:] Right, what do you do with when you're doing G, you do three times it... [Chris:] Minus two. [John:] and then subtract two. [Chris:] Right. [John:] Right now you worked out F of four. [Chris:] mhm. [John:] G you worked out G of F of four. This should be a general thing now. Er G of F of X is equal to that. So if we put four in there, we should get the same answer that you got. Three seventeens minus two, forty nine. Is that right? Looks about it. Yeah. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. So if we put four in there, that'll be seventeen, three seventeens. Yeah. That works okay, that. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And G of F of four, would come to forty nine. Now... I'm pretty certain that you do that and it's it's a bit of erm there's qui quite a bit in it. Getting sort of [Chris:] It does, the functions can see seem quite advanced really don't they.. Or is it just cos it's fresh stuff? [John:] Er [Chris:] bit like algebra isn't it? [John:] But they're not so much Yeah. They're not so much advanced, as they are very very basic. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] They're more basic than algebra, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] more basic, and the more basic things are, the more strange and sort of [Chris:] Mm. [John:] more awkward to get your head round it. Er just see what they say on functions here..... look in the table. Page eight. Coverage of topics. Topics, relevant to basic level. Higher level, intermediate level. So intermediate, rounding,... simultaneous equations by graph.... They're all on that. want to look at, on the graphs. Bearings, transformations, probability, I can't see functions. Should be right at the beginning. Erm, rounding off. It still ne Yeah. Drawing bearings, transformations, rotations. functions, fractions. [Chris:] Functions. [John:] Functions and combinations of functions, at the higher level. N E A, level R. You're doing Q aren't you? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Are you all doing Q at on your night school course? [Chris:] Yeah. They might have just threw in a bit er more from paper three. [John:] Erm [Chris:] Cos he reckons that paper three does give you some [John:] Well I I thought, that functions came into it, I must say. this one doesn't give it and er [Chris:] Is this one er [John:] Oh this is an eighty eight.... eighty eight. I mean they they can change in a year. Can change in a year. [Chris:] In this one? [John:] Er probably the best way to tell, is did he give you a syllabus at some stage? [Chris:] Yeah. He did. [John:] Mm. it'll be in here. Cos it's on definitely on the higher level. It's just that I I'm quite sure that you need. See he's given you a function of a function. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] F of F of erm and I think you do need it on that. But erm [Chris:] See I don't know where he got it from, because he didn't give us th questions out of this book. [John:] No. [Chris:] He he'd obviously done them in school [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] and brought them in on you know, erm sort of [John:] Are you reasonably happy with that? [Chris:] Yeah. I mean at first I didn't know what you mean, but I do now. [John:] So it's getting used to, for a start, being able to read it. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Cos it's it's hieroglyphics. [Chris:] Mm yeah. [John:] Isn't it? It's just [Chris:] Mm. [John:] funny squiggles and you've got to sort of like when you first see X squared, and you think, What's that? X with a little two up in the air. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm then you gradually get used to it, and when you read it, you've read it several times, it means something to you then. So this' ll come to mean something. Erm er They're all okay, they're all okay.. He's only given you one of those.... Do do don't bother about that one. Er when do you see him next? Wednesday? [Chris:] Tues Tuesday. [John:] Tuesday.... Ask him whether you need to do that C whether you [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] need to do that? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] G G of F of X. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Erm if you do, we'll have a look at it a bit more. [Chris:] Right. [John:] Erm I think you're okay on the basic functions. You've got that [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] so we'd be better off, spending the time on on graphs. [Chris:] Now he give me that. [John:] Three posts on a building site. Er let's have a look. Er one... Right... You okay on number one? [Chris:] I haven't even read it. [reading] Er the cash price for double glazing the windows was three nine five oh. He decided to pay by hire purchase. Pay a deposit of twenty percent. Calculate the amount of the deposit. [] Well I mean I know that twenty percent is twenty pound in a hundred, but what's a quick way of doing it on the calculator. What is the quick formula. [John:] Have you got a well there are several way of doing it, but have you got er a percent button? That's one that's probably th simplest. Which you don't tend to have Oh you have got one there on the equal. Erm what's that? Shift and pers shift and equal? [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Er let's see. One hundred plus two shift percent. [whispering] Is there an alt or a another funny key that you use instead of? Not that one. [] One hundred erm maybe it'll only work with the times, generally on scientific ones, they don't use the percent [Chris:] Mm. [John:] times [Chris:] Something to do with a hundred times the amount isn't it. [John:] Two see you've got a percent key marked there, how do you get [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] these, upper ones. Oh you put it into a different mode. [Chris:] Ah yeah [John:] That's what you do. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] You put this into a different mode, and it's not worth messing about with that at all. [Chris:] No cos it mess it up [John:] Because, you put that into a different mode, you can't get back to your normal mode, and your calculator's useless for the rest of the exam. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So don't use your percent button. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Erm... right equivalents of percentages and fractions.. What does four percent mean? [Chris:] Oh four parts of a hundred. [John:] Okay four percent is a fraction. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Four out of a hundred. That's it. Simple as that. So if I said, Find four percent of two hundred and forty pounds. Right. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] It's it's four hundredths of don't forget that times is of. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] You don't you don't ever need to know that that is pronounced times. [Chris:] Mhm [John:] You can always say of. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Three of four. Three of four is twelve. Three sets of four, three lots of four, three boxes of four, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] bags of four. Three of four, is twelve. Four of three, is twelve. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Right. Four hundredths of two forty is the same as two forty of four hundredths. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Doesn't matter which way you round you do it, that of, you can just switch them and get the same answer. Which you know from your your three fours and four [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] threes. [cough] so that's all you do. How would you do that on your calculator? [Chris:] Er two forty times a hundred... times four? No.... [John:] How would you find [Chris:] Oh two forty over a hundred, times four. [John:] Right. Yes. Yes. You've got. Are you okay multiplying fractions? Of of-ing fractions? [Chris:] Yeah. Yeah. Er not a hundre [John:] Not a hun [Chris:] Not brilliant No. [John:] Not a hundred percent that's [Chris:] yeah. [John:] a fraction so you must have some idea of fractions. Right.... Easiest thing to do with fractions, is to multiply them. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] It's the easiest thing to do. Cos you do what you think you're suppo you know what you'd expect. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Is you just multiply the two top ones together. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Right? And you multiply [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] the two bottom ones together.. [Chris:] Right so that's [John:] So what's Have a guess, what would be erm [Chris:] So nine hundred, it works out at nine pound odd [John:] What would two thirds of three quarters... come to roughly. Just sort of thinking about it having a guess. [Chris:] A half. [John:] How did you get that? Did you work it out here? [Chris:] No it just seemed to spring to mind. [John:] Okay, what would three quarters of two thirds be? [Chris:] Three quarters of two thirds, be a half. [John:] Right. Are you happy with that? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Okay. Just just have a quick look at it. In real life instead of squiggles on bits of paper. [Chris:] Right If we multiply that up it would come out to a half [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] wouldn't it. But I never, it just seemed to click as a [John:] What are we doing. Erm two thirds of three quarters, or three quarters of two thirds.... Right. So how much is there? [Chris:] Er three quarters. [John:] How big is that? [Chris:] That's... that's a third. [John:] Right and that's also a third. It doesn't look it cos it's [Chris:] Mm. [John:] it's a s different colour, but it is the same size as that. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So we've got two thirds there. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] What would a quarter of that look like? If you shared that two thirds out evenly between four people, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] how much would they get each. [Chris:] About that. [John:] Great. If you shared out that two thirds right that's that's [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] one piece there, two thirds. Share that out between four people, how much would they get each? [Chris:] Er one of these. [John:] One of these. Okay? [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So that's one quarter. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So three quarters, would be three pieces like this. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] It would be one two three. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] That's the half. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Okay. Now what's two thirds of three quarters? Here's your three quarters. What would one third of this be? If we shared that three quarters equally between three people, how much would they get? [Chris:] Between three people. [John:] Mhm. [Chris:] They'd get erm let's see... they'd get that. [John:] Right. So they'd get they'd get that much. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] That's one third of three quarters. So two thirds of three quarters, would be two pieces like that. [Chris:] mhm. [John:] Okay? One two. Which is a half. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So it does work out. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It always works out with fractions. It's the easiest thing to do with them. Multiply one by the other. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] leave them there. But it's all all this is okay, but it sort of makes your brain ache after a bit and to just see something real that relates to it it's makes it stick in your [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] mind. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] So... any number, divided by one, is just the same number, so if we [Chris:] Yeah. So if we got two, four, O multiplied by four, equal to so what it is nine sixty [John:] Don't don't need to do the equals, you can go straight on to the divide by a hundred. [Chris:] And if we divide that by one, nought, nought, and then we do the equals, it becomes nine point six. [John:] Right. Okay. Good. [Chris:] I say I thought it was about nine pound odd. [John:] Right. So [Chris:] So the the formula, [cough]... [John:] To calculate... what erm [Chris:] Percentage [John:] P P percent if you like. Well [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] we wo won't use X. P percent of... thirty five pounds, that's thirty five times P over a hundred. [Chris:] Yeah. That's it? Yeah. Good [John:] That works, so if you want a twenty [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] percent, it's thirty five times twenty and divide by a hundred. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Some of them you you might do in your head, like you think, Well I know twenty percent is one fifth, so I'll just divide that by five and that's seven pounds. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Erm so you can do that, you can work out total payments, and subtract that, and what it should have been. What about number two? [Chris:] [cough] Let's see erm [reading] The diagram above, represents a rectangular lawn, fifteen by ten, with a circular flower bed diameter six. Taking pi as three... Er taking pi as three, calculate the area of the flowerbed. Area of a circle is... pi R squared [].... So it's three times the radius, squared? [John:] Mhm. Yeah. So calculate the area of the flowerbed. Okay? [Chris:] Er so the the flower bed has a diameter of six metres. So the radius is three metres. [John:] Right. [Chris:] So... pi is three, times three squared. [John:] Right. Okay? [Chris:] Well [John:] Yeah? [Chris:] Three squared is nine, so it's three nines, which is twenty seven. [John:] Right. Okay, twenty seven square metres. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] And then what about B? [Chris:] [reading] Please calculate the area of lawn remaining. [] So we have to take away, twenty seven metres. Square m [break in recording] [John:] all the way round [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] is the perimeter. Area is the short one. That's not all the way round, that's just multiplying one by the other. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. That gives you a the length by the breadth or if you're working out er painting a ceiling or something, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] length by the breadth to work out how may square metres, then you have a look on the can, one can will cover thirty square metres or whatever. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Okay? So that's okay. So you shouldn't be having any problem with those anyway. [reading] In the diagram, a rhombus, each side of length three centimetres, put X in inside. Given that X is less than three centimetres from here mm mm mm mm, indicate the region in which X must lie. [] Mm. Now, any of these geometry ones, have a look, if you can't get it very quickly, just leave it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm you can come back to it at the end if you've done everything else, but there's something about these that er I think you're one. Erm some people get hooked on geometry, and they, I'm gonna get this one if it kills me. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It doesn't kill you, but it means you spend an hour on it when you could be doing the rest of your exam. [Chris:] Yeah. It doesn't help. Yeah. [John:] Okay? [Chris:] Er what what they're saying is, P Q P going round this way, P Q R S, is a rhombus. What does it mean a rhombus? That's the name of that shape? [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] Yeah. Cos I've not come across that. [John:] Okay. [Chris:] I have seen that shape, but not called a rhomb But each side of length is three centimetres. So three, six, [John:] They will [Chris:] twelve. [John:] each of those is three, alright? [Chris:] Twelve centimetres. For the whole thing. [John:] The the perimeter would be twelve centimetres [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [Chris:] [reading] A point X lies inside the rhombus. It is given that X is less than three centimetres from P. [] Right? [John:] Yeah Right. [Chris:] [reading] And that the distance P X, is greater than the distance R X. [] [John:] Right. [Chris:] So it's got to be down here. [reading] Indicate clearly, by shading it the diagram, the region in which K must lie, [] down here.... [John:] Clearly shade in the diagram. [Chris:] Is that worth about. [reading] A point at X lies inside the rhombus. It's given X is less than three centimetres from P. [] So it means it's not Ah so it means it's got to be up the top end. [John:] But you just said it's down the bottom end? [Chris:] I did. But I'm reading it again. [John:] Mhm. [Chris:] And it says, It's given that X is less than three centimetres from P. Well these are three centimetres long. [John:] Right. [Chris:] So if it's less than three centimetres from P it's got to be up this end. And that the distance P X ir greater than the distance R X. Well that does throw me because then [John:] Right. [Chris:] Yeah. Because it's like equal distances. [John:] Okay. [cough] Right. So you get to that stage, and you think forget this. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Right? [Chris:] Right. [John:] How many marks for it? Not many. There wouldn't be many for that. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And you could waste an awful lot of time on it. [Chris:] Wh what was the answer for that? [John:] Well I think I'll leave you that one. [Chris:] . [John:] Erm [Chris:] Are you taking the mickey? [John:] I'll give you I give you a clue. Shall I give you a clue? [Chris:] Er [John:] No. [LAUGHTER] It's geometry question, what sort of things do you normally use with, when you're doing geometry? [Chris:] like pi and stuff like that? You know. [John:] Mm. What sort of instrument did you normally use? [Chris:] A protractor. [John:] Yeah. Anything else? [Chris:] Compass. [John:] [whispering] That's more like it. [] [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Erm nearly all of these, geometry questions [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] wh where there're constructions, a compass comes into it. So don't spend much time on that. Cos [Chris:] Mm. [John:] you've got lots of other work in this that you should be doing. [Chris:] Yeah. Right. [John:] But if you're really absolutely cheesed off, then give yourself am maximum of five minutes on that, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] and then leave it and go and do something else. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And it'll probably come to you. But erm don't get stuck on those in the exam. [Chris:] Right. [John:] If you can't do it right away, leave it. [Chris:] Mhm. Right. [John:] [reading] Student asks thirty people, how long it had taken them [] And you draw a frequency table, which you've just been doing there. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Okay? So that should be okay. That would be a good one for you to try on your own. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm right I I would say, just leave that. Just forget it [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Just forget that sort of problem altogether [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] because you can really get stuck on them. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] That you'll get you can pretty much guarantee you'll get one, and it'll be almost the same as that. There'll be different numbers, it won't be a football match, it might be weights of pizzas, it might be the [cough] length to french sticks, you know it could be anything. But [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] it'll be very similar to that. Same technique. I think you'll also get something like this.... [reading] Using the root which is not drawn to scale, write down the reading running up there, running up there, running up there, giving the total. Find the numbers of litre petrol. [] Now you should be able to do that one. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Completely on your own. So this i this is a good thing to work through, this one. Now look. [reading] A field is in the shape of a quadrilateral,. Use the scale one to ten. Make an accurate drawing [] Now if you get one like this, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] like six, and you will usually get one of these on, do an accurate scale drawing, then go for that. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] They tell you what to do, do an accurate scale drawing. They will often tell you what scale to use as well. Which they do here. And then all you have to do, is measure off something, a diagonal or [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] how far is this one from that? And put your answer in. If your diagram is pretty reasonable, you'll get most of the mark. Erm if your diagram's pretty reasonable and you measure the wrong thing, you can still get quite a lot of the marks. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] So it's a And it doesn't take all day. It's a good one. [Chris:] Yeah. So it's a good one to go for. Yeah. [John:] Right. Now probability. If you don't understand it, just leave it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Yeah. This was the [John:] Erm [Chris:] tree thing isn't it? [John:] Yeah. Erm [reading] Write the appropriate probabilities on the branches of the tree diagram. [] And we'll have a quick glance at that now. See what you make of it. Three blue and one red. And two draws are made, at random in each case. Draw one, a bead is taken from bag A. And it's put in bag B. [Chris:] Well bag A [John:] I think that's a bit nasty that. [Chris:] Yeah. [reading] Bag A contains three blue beads [] [John:] Mhm. [Chris:] [reading] and one red bead. Bag B contains three blue beads and three red beads. Two draws are made Draw one, a bead is taken from bag A and put in bag B. [] Right. [reading] A bead is taken from bag B. Write the appropriate probability on the branches of the tree diagram. [] Draw one, [John:] And they won't be giving you a lot of marks for that I don't [Chris:] Mm. [John:] think. Erm I think that's... slightly tricky. It's it's unusual. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [Chris:] I mean you're obv er to me you'd there's more chance of you getting a blue bead out. [John:] Well we're not bot too bothered about, is there more chance or less chance? We want to know exactly. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Exactly how much chance. Erm this is this is real this stuff. This is [Chris:] Mm. [John:] erm not you know, silly mathematics, it's probability is based on, it's to do with gambling. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] It's all about getting your money. Now there was a bloke called Chevalier de Mer. Who was [Chris:] Sounds French. [John:] He wrote to Pascal. Was it Pascal? Er yes. Pascal. Erm who was a a mathematician, a very brilliant mathematician. Erm saying I've got this gambling problem, I don't know whether how much it's worth betting on this. You're a mathematician, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] you work it out for him. For me. And he he more or less laid down the whole theory of probability, in a few days, Pascal [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] did. Erm in the letters that he wrote to this bloke. Who then went on to win quite a lot of money, cos he could [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] he knew what the odds were and everyone else didn't. Erm let's say. A pack of cards. [cough] You draw four cards out, one after the other. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Okay? Now it's gonna cost you a pound to play this game. Okay. If you get four aces out, We make sure it's a fresh deck of cards and everything else, and nothing's fixed. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] If those cards that you get are four aces, I'll give you a thousand. Okay? a thousand pound. If they're not, then I get your pound. Do you want to play? [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] No. [John:] Would you you know, would you play that? [Chris:] Yeah. I'd probably I'd have a go. Yeah. [John:] You'd have a go. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Okay. Well [Chris:] Probably lose me pound like, but I'd have a go. [John:] You'd probably lose more than that. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Cos you'd keep having, Ah it's only another pound. You've got fifty off me [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] so far, I'll have another go, to try and get [Chris:] Mm. [John:] that thousand. Well you'd need about nearly round round about a million goes. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] You'd think something like three chances in a million of getting four aces. So if someone had come up to you, and said, Well look, you you bet three pound, to have a go and if you get a four aces, I'll give you a million pound, then it's worth it. That's a that's a reasonable that's a fair balanced [Chris:] Mm. [John:] deal. That's okay. But usually, it's very very much loaded in favour in favour of the the banker [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] the person who's offering you the game, and he knows the odds. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] You don't. [cough] You just think, Ooh thousand to one, that sounds good odds. Can't get much better than that. [Chris:] No. [John:] But he should be giving you a million to three. [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Which which is a lot more. So we want to know exactly what the odds are, on this one. A blue one or a red one. Draw one. What are the odds. red. I I like writing them writing them on the nodes like that. That's a red one, and that's a blue one. Right. Draw one, it's from bag A. Bag A has got three blue, and one red. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] start off here with three blue and one red. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] What's the chances of getting a red, what's the chances of getting a blue? [Chris:] Well... there's one chance of getting a red. And there's three chances [John:] Well mark the probabilities on here. Where they've put the [Chris:] Oh right. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Three blue, one red. [John:] Now this looks like a good game to bet on, because a probability of one, is an absolute certainty. A probability of three is just totally unheard of. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] You can't have a probability of greater than one. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So this isn't the probability. What's the chances of getting a red? [Chris:] The chances of getting a red. There's there's one chance. [John:] One chance in a million? [Chris:] One chance in three. [John:] One chance in? [Chris:] Four. [John:] Right. So the chance of getting a red, is one in four. [Chris:] Ah. [John:] The chance of getting a blue? [Chris:] Is three in four. [John:] And the chance of getting either a red or a blue, If I say, Here you are, I'm gonna you've got this bag and it's got three blue and one red in it. And I'm gonna pick one at random, and I'm gonna have this bet with you that I will get either a red or a blue. And what odds are you gonna Are you gonna play? [Chris:] Yeah. If you've got. [John:] There's the bag has got, three blue and one red in it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] I'm gonna take one out without looking. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] And I'm gonna bet you that I'll either get a red one or a blue one. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Now I'll pay you ten pounds to play this game, and I only want a pound if I win. [Chris:] Yeah. I'd play it but it's possible that the red one will go when you take it out. And there'll only be blue left. [John:] Well it's a certainty that I'll get either a red or a blue. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Cos there's only a red or a blue in there, so if I [Chris:] That's right yeah. [John:] If I say, I'll bet you I'll get either a red or a blue. [Chris:] Mhm. Yeah. [John:] I'm I'm onto a good, I can't lose. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So I'll just keep raking it in won't I? [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Because we add up the probabilities, to find out the chances of getting that or that. We get three quarters, add a quarter, [Chris:] One. [John:] which is one. A probability of one, is an absolute certainty. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] One out of one. A hundred times out of a hundred, a million times out of a million. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Cos probability is always expressed as a fraction. Right. Now this is where the tricky bit comes in. Whatever one we get, goes into the next bag. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So if we did get Three out of four chances we get a blue. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] If we get a blue one, we put it in the bag, and what would the bag cont what would the second bag contain now? Bag B, it had got three blue and three red, so it's now going to have four blue and three red. Okay? [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Looking at this one, if we pulled a red one out of bag A and put it into bag B, bag B would now have three blue, and four red. Take that one next as we're down here. Blue at the top. Now what's the chance of getting a blue? How many are there in the bag? [Chris:] Three. And four red. [John:] Four red. So what's the chances of getting a blue one? [Chris:] Three in seven. [John:] That's it. Three out of seven. And the chances of getting a red? [Chris:] Four out of seven. [John:] Four out of seven. Okay? [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Going back to the beginning again. Three blues on red. Mot likely, three times out of four it'll be a blue. We put it in the second bag, and that's now four blue and three red. So the chance of getting a blue is? [Chris:] Four out of seven. [John:] Four out of seven. And the chance of getting a red? [Chris:] Three out of seven. [John:] Down here. Three out of seven. Okay?... Right. What's the chance of getting either a blue or a red? On this on this pick? [Chris:] Erm [John:] Four sevenths, add three sevenths,... how many sevenths is that? [Chris:] Seven sevenths are one. [John:] Which is one. So it's a certainty that we get a blue or red. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It's just a check that we've got that covered. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] That we have got the right probabilities. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Same down here, three sevenths add four sevenths, that's okay. Now what's the chance, that we'll get a blue out of the first bag, and a blue out of the second bag? [Chris:] Erm... Three and four... and four and seven, so it's [John:] What do you mean by, Three and four and four and seven? [Chris:] I was gonna add them up to see how [John:] Were you? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] What happens if I added erm... an eighth to three quarters? Would the three quarters get bigger or less? Bigger or smaller? [Chris:] Bigger. [John:] So you're saying, there's more chance of getting the blue out of out of the second, than there is of just [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Right, and your next one, if you put it back, is four out of fifty two. And the next one four out of fifty two. So you're saying the chances of getting four aces, provided you put it back each time and shuffled them again, would be sixteen out of fifty two. [Chris:] Mm [LAUGHTER] Yeah. No. [John:] Your o your chances aren't getting better, they're getting a lot worse [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] aren't they? [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] With each complication. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Each other unlikely event that's got to happen. There's a good chance we won't even be there. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] We won't there's there's a good chance we don't even get the first blue. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So having got it, it's not a certainty that we'll get the next one. We've got to combine these two probabilities, by multiplying them. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] So the chance of getting here, is three quarters times four sevenths. Okay? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Which will come to three sevenths. The chance of getting here, is three quarters times three sevenths.... Now might as well leave them as as twenty eighths. So that'nine twenty eighths there. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Twelve twenty eighths up here.... This one, the chance of coming down this way, was a quarter. We can only only start off from here, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] if we've come down there. And most of the time we won't. We will have gone up there three times out of four. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So to even get a chance of picking a a blue, after we've had a red, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Only that'll one happen one time in in four, on there. So this is going to be a quarter times three sevenths. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] . And that's going to come to three out of twenty eight. And this one, will be what? [Chris:] Where one one quarter times four sevenths. [John:] That's it. [Chris:] Four over twenty eight. [John:] And they, what do they add up to? Four and three is seven, [Chris:] Seven [John:] and twelve is nineteen [Chris:] So it's six sixteen plus twelve. [John:] And nine. [Chris:] twenty eight. [John:] Right. Okay. [Chris:] Yeah. Twenty eight twenty eighths is one. That's right. [John:] Right. It means we've covered them all and we've got the probability correct. Twelve and nine, twenty one, twenty four, twenty eight out of twenty eight. If we'd have added them [Chris:] mm. [John:] The way you wanted to do, and then we added all this lot up, we'd find well,w the chance is more than a certainty. More than one, that we'd finish up there. And very very much more than one, that one of these would happen. At each stage in your tree vertically, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] if you add them up, they should come to one. When you work out the probability of arriving at that point. So if we call that point blue, red, and we call this one here, blue, blue. Right? That's a blue followed by a blue. And this one is a blue followed by a red, A red followed by a blue. And a red followed by a red. That's R R. Okay? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm that's a q sorry that's a quick look at it. Now... the reason this is a bit messy, is that at that stage, depended on which one you get out of here, you putting in the second bag. Erm I haven't seen one before like that at this level. [Chris:] Yeah. He may be giving us harder papers just to [John:] I suspect that you don't that you don't ne Yeah. I think he is. [Chris:] As he gears up. [John:] I think you don't need that bit.... Erm try it again. Do it yourself, that one. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] But don't when you've made your draw, [Chris:] [cough] Yeah. [John:] Don't bother putting the ball in the next bag, in bag B. Bag B's got three blue and three red. just leave it like that. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] When you've drawn the first one, just put it back in the first bag and forget about it and go on. And see how you work your tree out. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. That's erm. But you need you need to be practising a lot of things now. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] A lot. Erm... Right.... [reading] Using the distances and bearings, draw a scale diagram and measure things. [] Good one to go for. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] You should get full marks on that and on that other one. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] They're good ones to go for. That one... [LAUGHTER] No way. You know? [] [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] You can really get tied up in it and you and I'll just try this now. I know I've been a long time on this but I'll I think it's nearly there. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] They can be nearly there for an hour and a half. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And you keep, Oh yeah I'll just No. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Just leave it. Leave it. And what's Mrs Pink doing? Alright, again, this is the same sort of thing you get. Average speed before the car broke down. average speed between then and then. The length of the time that she spent in Cambridge. That's a good one to look at. Er now he's get Ms and Ss and Ns on this. So that's Midlands and Southern and Northern. That was a Northern was it? [Chris:] What does he mean by that? [John:] Northern paper. [Chris:] Oh right. [John:] Northern paper, Southern paper, Midlands paper. [Chris:] Oh yeah. [John:] Erm... Okay. Yeah I think I think have a go at those, you should be able to. You should be able to do all of those. I would le definitely leave that. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] There won't be a lot of marks on it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So you can really just you know [Chris:] Mm. [John:] you can just throw the exam away getting stuck [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] on one of those. Erm... bearing... You should be fine on that and on that. Now, drawing graphs of functions. Have you done inequalities?... Less X is less than or equal to six? No. [Chris:] No. [John:] Cos that is definitely on erm. Mm. You've done drawing graphs of er Y equals [Chris:] Done vectors [John:] Y equals two X minus three. Things like that. Draw a graph of that. [Chris:] No. [John:] No? [Chris:] Doesn't ring a bell, no. Not a graph of it, no. [John:] you have you has he done any drawing graphs? [Chris:] Yeah he's done some graph work. Erm [John:] Yeah. Yeah. You'll be given a function like given in that form, Y equals some function of X. And then draw a graph. [Chris:] There's some sort of graphs here. I d Oh these. [John:] quick look at that one. Yeah this is it. Yeah. draw a graph of that equals that for that. [Chris:] No. [John:] Okay? [Chris:] Is that a vector? No? [John:] No. No. Let's have a look. No. It's just a graph of a function which happens to be a straight line. Erm [Chris:] my lines I think I've possibly got them [John:] Mm. [Chris:] . [John:] Yes. I think so. [Chris:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] [John:] I wouldn't have said wrong, but not correct. So X is minus one. Four X plus one is minus three. One... and... five Okay those points are right. So putting those on the graph, you've got minus one, minus three. Minus one right... One one point should be here. [Chris:] Mhm.... [John:] You've got nought, one, which is there. Okay. I'll just put a ring in pencil, round the ones that are okay. Nought, one, that's okay. Y equals three X plus five, okay. And you're doing, Y equals four X plus one. Oh I see. Yeah. But erm [Chris:] They're [John:] Mm. This one... This minus one, three, just isn't shown anywhere. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Minus one minus three doesn't even go down to minus two. [Chris:] Yeah. I d I didn't actually complete this. [John:] No. Okay. [Chris:] In fact I I've got a feeling this may [John:] Erm [Chris:] have been, written down to actually do [John:] Mm. [Chris:] on ano separate pieces of graph paper. [John:] Yeah. That's what I th or well what I was just about to suggest. It would be well worth you doing that, because they give you, you can almost guarantee a question on graphs. They'll give you some [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Nice standard functions like this, that you can feel at home with. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And draw your graph. Erm let's see. If you've got any different, use two colours there, how many have you got? One, two,... and three, Yeah. I would do them on separate ones. Erm If you haven't got graph paper, erm pick a bit of s squared paper [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Just a normal sort of squared exercise book. I haven't got any with me, and I was just looking at graphs for someone else earlier. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm that's I mean I would really recommend that you make the time. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It's getting [Chris:] To do that. [John:] It's getting very very close, and you've got an awful lot to do. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] You've got a tremendous amount to for you, not for me to go through with you, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] but just for you to do, on what we've done so far, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] to consolidate that, before we can move on really. [Chris:] Yeah. Yeah erm. [John:] Erm. [LAUGHTER] I can't find time for you, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] you you'll have to make the time somewhere, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] pinch the times from something. Erm to do cos you're gonna, you're gonna be struggling if you [Chris:] Mm. [John:] if you can't do a lot more work. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Er how d how do you feel, you're doing with with the maths? [Chris:] Erm well I feel I like you say, I can do with more more sitting down and doing it myself so it it sinks in. [John:] Mm. You could do with a lot a lot more. A lot more exercises [Chris:] Mm. [John:] and a lot more Because otherwise, you're gonna come to that exam, you're gonna sit down, and you're gonna say, Oh I did something a bit like this with John, I remember that. I understood it at the time. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It's gone now. Cos you haven't done it yourself, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] on your own, several times, to practise it, to shake it up and down, get all the bits out of it [Chris:] Mm. [John:] and sort of store it away [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] where you can just pull it in. You think, Yeah, I know what I'm doing with this. Completely in control of it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm. What more can [LAUGHTER] I say []? [Chris:] Well [John:] You you need [Chris:] I'll [John:] to You need to have a good go at these. Go through that paper, and [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] erm and do those graphs. [Chris:] Yeah. And I'll have a a good read of this, and try and write down, things that I've got a block about I mean [John:] Do do more writing and trying things and reading at the moment. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] You can catch up on the I mean you can do those graphs without reading anything else about it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Do one on each sheet of paper. Erm Reuben might have some graph paper [Chris:] I've got gr I've got graph paper. [John:] Right. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? Great well use on sheet for each. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And do some graphs on that. Cos we've got, really we've got a a lot more... that I'd like to cover. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm we've only had a a glimpse really of probability. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] You can guarantee there'll be one question on that. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm you could probably do with revising the statistics bit. Erm you should also be practising, manipulating equations. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Changing the subject of equ of an equation. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. If I give you something like,... now can you remember how to do that sort of thing?... That's that's [Chris:] Make R the subject. [John:] Call that three. Two erm... Make Y the subject.... So that you get Y equals something. And again there. R equals something. Now in that one, erm one, this is the easiest one, I thought, Well, better give you some easier ones so you can work into that. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Erm... [whispering] And make X the subject of that. X equals []... Okay.... No. Have a go at that one first, and work up that way, how's that sound? There's more work in doing these but you you should be sort of practising equations all the time. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm, doing awkward ones that have got fractions in. So that you're keeping up with the fractions. Doing ones that have got percentages in. Doing ones that have got maybe a mixture, of percentages. I mean it was, a couple of years ago, a favourite question, things like, erm, What's twenty five percent of a quarter? [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Er how would you go about that? What's twenty five percent of a quarter? [Chris:] A quarter of a quarter. [John:] Right good, okay, and what will that come to? [Chris:] A quarter... once one is one. [John:] A quarter of a quarter [Chris:] Dunno. [John:] One times one? [Chris:] One. [John:] One.... [Chris:] Sixteen. [John:] Four times, don't forget, four times. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Er very tempting to add them. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Especially when you'd rather work with eights than sixteenths. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] It's all this sort of the bias that you've got through how you've worked things, and fiddle about with sixteenths. Erm when you once y once you've got out of the habit of sixteenths and thirty seconds, and things like that, you find that I mean, we found the other week, didn't you, that you were thinking, Oh these millimetres a bit of a pain. He was much [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] happier when it was back in the old feet and inches. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] But if you try and go back to it, when you haven't done it for years, you realize how complicated it was. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] With the yards, feet and especially all the, How many yards in a a furlong and [Chris:] Mm. [John:] a chain, and mile and [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Then nautical mile and everything else. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] It's er it's a pain.... That's a paper.. Never mind. That's... paper [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] That one was for how old is er... Is that yours? [Chris:] No. [John:] Oh that's probability, it's where it starts. functions didn't we. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And again, these scribbles, I mean my excuse is they're supposed to be like that, but... These won't mean a thing [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] in maybe two or three days time. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] But in a d within the next day or so, perhaps over the weekend, if you can make your notes about what this was Put it in your own words, what was happening here. What does F of G of X mean? Erm just put a tiny note on it. erm you were all right on those. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] I would ask him about that [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Ask him if you need to know F of G of X and G of F of X. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] I mean I f I I feel that you do. But it wasn't there [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] on that syllabus that I've just looked at, so [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] don't want to load you up, with [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] more stuff if it's not on your syllabus. [Chris:] Right. [John:] So that one should be. Rrr. How do you feel about it? [Chris:] Mm er not too bad, but I feel, you know, I need to [John:] You you you really [Chris:] I need to work on it. [John:] You really do I mean And what's what's the last time [Chris:] It's remembering the formulas and stuff that's er is the is the major thing, because I know, like in the class, I've not actually had a lesson where I've done bad. But it's memory of er [John:] If you just have that one lesson, and he explains it to your properly, and he sets you some exercises, on what you've just done, half an hour or an hour ago, you'll get through them. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] But if he gives you the s exactly the same numbers even, same exercise, same number [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] If he gives you [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] a month later, you wouldn't know where to start. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Unless time from somewhere, and just had I mean, five or six goes, an the same sort of question, until you get to the stage where you just go, Oh yeah, Okay. Bang bang bang bang. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And then you've got to the stage where you don't need to. I mean you know, with other jobs that you do, when you need to practise it, and when you don't. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Erm if you've got something complicated to wire up or something. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Or work out what I'm doing here, maybe make a little, few little notes to yourself. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] I must do that bit and that before that. And make sure this bit is earthed, but that mustn't be earthed and [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] You do that same job, half a dozen times, [Chris:] Mm. [John:] in the end, you're just whizzing through it, you're thinking about what you're having for your tea. And you're talking to your mate and it's all just happening by magic. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. And you're not really concentrating very much at all. But it only comes with practice, and it's [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] exactly the same with this. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] It will you know, you see it done once and do it once yourself. You think, Right I've got it. Come the exam, you will be kicking yourself, [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] cos you'll think, I did one of these, when was it? [Chris:] Mm. [John:] Oh a couple of months ago I did one of these, now er how do I get into it? Where do I start? [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] What's the trick on this one? Hey. So [Chris:] Yeah. Right [John:] I don't I mean I know I I'm very busy, I've got stuff that I should have done, months and months ago, that I haven't got round to doing yet, cos there's been all sort of interruptions. So er But I'm the one who suffers, cos I'm not getting round doing it. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So I can't you know, can't advise you [Chris:] Mm. [John:] in how to find time. And you really need do it. I've gone on a bit but you do need [Chris:] Mm. [John:] to find yourself, several hours a week. [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] Erm as well as just going to night school. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] So it's up to you. Erm I'm you know, I'm quite sure, if you don't, if you don't put a lot of work in, then you will finish up not getting through. [Chris:] Mm. [John:] And you just sort of have it all hanging over you and [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] do it again next year. So [Chris:] Mm. How long is there? [John:] A month and a bit. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] There's a bank holiday coming up now, there's another one the end of May, [Chris:] Mhm. [John:] there'll be all sort of interruptions and [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] There's there's no time at all. It's gonna fly by and very soon, you'll be sort of strolling into that exam [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] thinking, Oh if only I spent a bit more time [Chris:] Yeah I'll find the time [John:] Okay [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] yeah. [John:] Okay I mean, it's not for [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] me. It's for you it's for you. [Chris:] No no. Yeah. Yeah. [John:] Erm cos if you don't it's then either, be thinking of, Oh well [Chris:] Yeah it's a lot of effort going nowhere if I don't [John:] Exactly it's all wasted, what you have put in has just gone then. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] And you start all over again. [Chris:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Anyway I'll better get off. And erm let you have a a little [Chris:] Right. [John:] break from, coming in from work, starting on this. ten past ten again. [LAUGHTER]... [Chris:] Next Friday then [John:] Yeah I'll I'll [recording ends]

[speaker001:] I'm going to try and keep a record, a log of those who speak, and at the end of the meeting, there's some information I need about you, like It's not it's not required information. If you wish to give it, age, sex, occupation, that sort of thing. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Er so th I will also then have a list of the people who need to sign the form. Okay. If you don't speak, you don't need to sign the form. Right. Forget all that. We begin our meeting. And for our devotions, I want to turn to psalm number one hundred. Yesterday, er I t took part in a Songs of Praise service at North. And what the folks had done, with their quarterly newsletter that they send to both villages, North and South, on the back, they'd put a form requesting that every household submitted their five favourite hymns. And these hymns were then compiled together the top ten. And last night, we sang the top ten, in the Songs of Praise service, and it was a surprising how many extra people came to the church, as a result of that. Tt and er one of the passages that I read during the service, is this one, psalm a hundred. [reading] Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the lands. Serve the Lord with gladness. Come into his presence with singing. Know that the Lord is God, it is he that made us and we are his. We are his people and the sheep of his pasture. Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise. Give thanks to him, bless his name. For the Lord is good. His steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generation. Amen. [] The er hopeful line I think, in that psalm is the first one, [reading] Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the lands. [] So it means that you don't have to be a brilliant singer. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] It says joyful, not tuneful. And as long as it's done with joy, then it is acceptable worship. Let us pray together.... Father we thank you for the worship life of our church. We thank you for the times when it moves us to be in your presence together. We recognize too that there are times when we are frustrated. Or anxious about things that are happening. The whole variety of experience that makes up our worship life. For we our changing and growing in you, and together. And Father as we think together further, about our worship, about the life of our church family, we pray that you would be with us n this meeting. Guide and direct all our conversation. And lead us that we might know your will mor clearly, and desire to follow it more fully. We pray in the name of Christ, our Lord. Amen. [speaker001:] Amen. [speaker002:] My first task tonight having finished the devotions, is to welcome Stella, as our minutes secretary. You don't know Stella, what er a delight it is for us to have you. We've been looking for you for some months. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And er we're delighted to ha that you want to take on this task. Okay. I'm also pleased to be able to welcome Bill, to the meeting tonight. It's Bill's first er time at the worship consultation, but I believe everybody else has been here before. Is that correct? Yes. So we welcome you Bill. We've received a number of apologies for absence. And the ones I've had so far are these, Emma, Peggy, Will, Jan and Martin, Stan, Terry, Richard, Peter and Jim. Quite a substantial list. Are there any others? Any others? [speaker001:] Evelyn. [speaker002:] Evelyn.... And Anne asks that her name be added, but crossed out if she subsequently comes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [speaker002:] The minutes of the last meeting which were held on the thirteenth of May, have been circulated. Can I ask you if you think they are a correct record?... Any dissension?... There was just one thing I need to add, and that is the name of Mr Peter, to the list of those present. Peter informed me when he er rang me up, that he was there. So can I just [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] amend the minutes. Thank you.... Then with your agreement, I shall sign these as a correct record.... [speaker004:] Terribly sorry, couldn't find a way in. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Have you not been up the ramp before? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Well I was expecting th Well I was expecting it to be the church hall you see. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] these trumpets blowing [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Jenny I should tell you that the meeting's being recorded for this er, for the dictionary people. And er we've a we've all given our permission. However of course you may not give your permission, for your words of you know, I couldn't find the doors [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And I need you to sign a consent form before you go as you have spoken at the meeting, okay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And er you know, your words could find their way into one of Longman's dictionaries. Or er all those other things. okay.... Matters arising from the minutes please. The question of wider publicity. I reported last time that I'd made an approach to Chris. I've heard nothing more from him, neither have I asked him yet, if he's come up with anything. Er that's neglect on my part, erm but unless anybody's spoken to Chris, and Anne's not here. Erm we'll leave it at that for the time being. The whole issue of the preparation of worship, that's under b b b b E on page two last time. Er the stewards have started to discuss the ideas and have yet to come forward some suggestions. That still stands. But we have got a meeting on Thursday, so perhaps we could make a point of er coming forward with some possible suggestions. Er C, theme services, that's er G on the erm minutes. Erm we have arranged two sets of theme services. The September ones are in hand. And we're doing something on the character of the Christian, er I can't, obedience,, righteousness is one and I can't remember what the other is. Pardon? No I don't th Ah. I can't remember. [speaker005:] Repentance, [speaker006:] Obedience, Righteousness and Humility? [speaker002:] Humility, right.... Okay. Just wait while I write your names down. [LAUGHTER]. Okay. So that's all in hand, erm the preachers we wanted didn't quite work out as we'd suggested. Er but er I've managed to fiddle it with the suggested preachers for the November series, which I have come a little bit unstuck about. And I'll report that to the stewards at the meeting on er on Thursday as the initiative came from them. Mainly because erm wires got crossed and er the 's Hall folks want us to go again to do exchange at the end of November, and Well we'll discuss it a little bit further. I don't think it's impossible, but we just need to make sure, that we've got it right. The church anniversary, nineteen ninety four, er that's number three on the er minutes. Er Miles is now definitely coming to England. We didn't definitely know that when we had the meeting, but he is coming and I will write to him when he arrives in the country. And see if he'll be willing to come. Er point four, the use of silence. Simply to report that there are no further demelo developments on the use of silence in worship, since our last meeting. But I give you my undertaking, that the ideas will be pursued er at a later date. Er I mean that very helpful discussion, er though aspects of it have already been included. But the particular thrust of the theme er will come in later on. Er item five on the minutes was, Can we combat the competition posed by other children's activities? And erm one of the things we agreed to do was to compile a list. Erm Pat, Cath and Andrew, did we get anywhere? You have some names. So erm that's still to be sorted out... er in the future. We'll we'll get together over that and sort it out, but we are seriously er getting about, doing what we were asked to do. Erm... There's also mention there about er family services, and I've put those on our agenda later on. And er and an item particularly that comes from the church council. Are there any other matters arising that anyone want to pick up on at this point? [speaker007:] Can I just say, about the erm sport... side. I found that it is the planning of this, that it's also choir rehearsals, and certain school activities that do clash. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker007:] With junior church. So it isn't just [speaker002:] Sport. [speaker007:] sport. [speaker002:] Right. Okay this... Covered the matters arising, happily, for now? Okay, the rest of the agenda looks like this. The time of the morning service, language, quite appropriate considering, church family services, and all age worship, children and communion, if we have time, any other business, date of the next meeting, go home. Okay. Time of the morning service. This whole issue about er children, junior church, other activities, children being compromised, adults finding it difficult to insist or persuade their children, that they should be in junior church, when other folks are trying to tempt them in other directions. Erm was raised er, quite helpfully I thought, at the church council when it met erm at the end of last month. Now er one of the very, or the very serious suggestion that came out of that meeting, and it I think it met unanimous support that night, was consideration of altering the time of the morning service. And the suggestion was that it should be at nine thirty, and not ten thirty. So that's quite a radical shift, bringing it forward a whole hour. And er we did say that we would consult further about it, and erm you are one constituency, er which certainly you know, er as is your responsibility to think about the worship line of the church. Where it we ought to consider it. So it's a suggestion at the moment, it's not a firm proposal, it's not fixed in concrete and I would hate anyone to to think that that was the case. But does anyone have any strong feelings either for or against changing the time, and for or against nine thirty. [speaker008:] In taking the time on it's own, erm that that's not not a problem I would have thought, for most people, cos if they're making Sunday lunches anyway, then i it's in the middle of the morning one way or the other. But in terms of competition, does it actually address the competition? Erm we can't really answer that, as a body, until we've looked at some of the er preparation for that. That Pat's doing, with Cath and Andrew. So I mean i i we'd answer that in isolation. [speaker002:] Right.... Yeah we do need more information certainly. [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm but I mean i i you know the reason I asked this question is that, if this group said now, Absolutely no way. then we would probably wouldn't go any further with it. You know. But if you are saying, you know, We need more evidence and we will and we you know, certainly don't rule it out of court. [speaker008:] Well you could make a proviso. [speaker002:] Yes yeah. John? [speaker009:] Would for instance, sort of ten o'clock er instead of the hour half an hour difference, be a possibility? Erm. [speaker002:] Yeah. I mean that's that you know, I mean [speaker009:] Yeah [speaker002:] it's all up for grabs I would suggest. [speaker009:] Yeah yeah. [speaker008:] It was also discussed that nine thirty wasn't early enough. [speaker002:] Yes it wa [speaker008:] were thinking of morning sports, it wasn't early enough, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] you would need it to be nine o'clock. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] What do the other churches think then, in town catholic and the. [speaker002:] Well I know the Minster have a nine thirty and eleven o'clock. The catholic meet in the middle of the night I think don't they. [speaker008:] Yeah, the catholic are coming out at half past nine aren't they. [speaker002:] Yes I think, I don't know whether it's half past eight or nine o'clock, but it's certainly, it's in the dark in the Winter [speaker001:] Half past eight. [speaker002:] Is it half past eight? Right. Trinity I think have one [speaker008:] Half past ten. [speaker002:] Half past ten right. [speaker008:] . [speaker001:] I don't mind the half past nine, half past, but I do feel concerned about those older people, who've already said they they couldn't possibly get for half past nine. Mm. And it seems such a shame after all, yes. To deprive them of the [speaker002:] Right. Some folks have actually said that have they? [speaker001:] Yes. I mean I don't Yes. [speaker002:] Cos [speaker001:] I don't mind it myself but erm [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I do feel concern for the older people. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] Cos very often the older people. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Right. Is nine thirty er that time ever been used in Methodists. Well yes there there's plenty of erm there's precedents for it. Right. I mean perhaps Colin you'd talk about for a moment. [speaker006:] two services, they have a think it's nine fifteen and ten forty five, I'm not sure. Er... We've worshipped on holiday at nine thirty. [speaker002:] In methodist churches? Anglican [speaker006:] Yeah. we don't have to have a precedent even do we if it if it [speaker002:] No. [speaker006:] meets our situation. I think you need to collect the names of the n the people who won't be able to come before nine or nine thirty, and weigh it against those people who will. [speaker001:] Mm. Again it's it's children percent [speaker002:] Yes oh yes, parents have to be asked as well. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. And if there was er an a distinct advantage in that would be obviously beneficial wouldn't it. But if it didn't and they weren't forthcoming, then erm [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I know some of the sport starts about ten o'clock on Sundays. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Sunday mornings. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] football time. Well we might have er be able to speak with the people who are doing the coaching, and work out the times [speaker002:] Yes yes. [speaker001:] with those. I mean if we are positively going to have junior church, we could say, Well couldn't As we are the earlier, why can't they Start later. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] start later. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. And I mean if we're going to compromise,. [speaker002:] Right. Bill? [speaker003:] I was just gonna say, exactly that. I i it comes down to If we're gonna move it earlier, why are we gonna move it earlier? And are we moving it earlier because of the er competition with sport and so on? And if so erm are we then gonna go early enough to to prevent this clash? [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] And erm er from what I've seen I mean people are often at football games for ten o'clock kick off and so on, which means er that's just one example, which means they could be away, half past eight in the morning. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So and so then [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] you've gotta decide if you're actually gonna avoid clashes with [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] the sport and so on and er and then what time you're gonna go for. And alternatively we do a bit of research and find out if some compromise can be arranged. [speaker002:] Well I think the consideration and the research has got to go on for some time. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah absolutely. Erm [speaker004:] I think, just moving it earlier, I s completely support what Bill just said, doesn't actually solve the problem. I think as well the young people have got to be motivated, to come to what they find here. And I think er Well Pat and I have discussed that a little bit as well, cos I've been under some pressure in this direction with Alice. Erm. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker004:] She's very happy, to attend another worship in the day. And has come with me, and bored out of her mind, and not understood it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] And she willingly offered to come. And I think we've got to face that end of problem as well. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] just shifting time zones, doesn't actually solve the problem. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] And we may antagonize a lot of people in doing so. [speaker002:] Right. Do I detect then that the general feeling is that we shouldn't even tamper with this. [speaker001:] Until you've done a bit more research. [speaker002:] No I m No I mean full stop. [speaker004:] No I I wasn't I wasn't implying that. [speaker002:] No but I was just sort of testing you out to see, you know, how you reacted. [speaker001:] Coming to junior church and worship, is not a sufficient attractive proposition, for our young people, with with regard to the competition. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] If it was a er you know, if it was really attractive to them, something they wanted to do, they would bring about those compromises themselves. Cos they would be going to their coach, or team or what have you, and saying, Look we want to. And then. [speaker002:] So it's actually the quality of our worship that we need to improve, rather than changing the time. [speaker001:] Well I think changing the time might bring about. [speaker002:] So we will, we will consider further. But you would want to put some pretty strong caveats on the whole, thing. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. Agreed. Mm. [speaker002:] Right.... Thank you. That's very helpful, erm I mean obviously, we've yet to decide who's going to do the research, and who's going to do all the considering. Erm obviously I can have ad hoc conversations with different groups, and I'll I'm very happy to do that. But the danger is of course that we don't cover everybody. And everyone needs to be consulted. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yes. [speaker002:] Er it did occur to me I mean I was, in my last church, the for for completely different reasons, the question of the timing of the church services, was brought up. And the worship consultation did institute a questionnaire, that every household was asked to fill in. To talk about when th when worship would be most helpful for them to be hol to be held. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know and to talk about many other, while they were at it with this questionnaire, they tackled many other subjects as well you know. What do people find unhelpful in worship? What would they like to see included? And er a whole host of things came up and a number of things were repeated that we were able to follow up. But interestingly, a huge proportion, of the people, said, Don't change the time of the services. Nothing, it wasn't changed. But of course, most of the people that that you're asking are those, who it suits. You know those who it doesn't suit, don't belong to our church. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So you could almost predict the answer when you think about it, erm before you start to ask the questions. Okay. But that's you know, another suggestion. Okay o a do you think we've done that to death? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'd like to introduce a conversation about language now. See how we get on with this. The importance of language is something that we have come to appreciate, more and more in recent time. We refer to the language of power for instance. That's the language that politicians and others who have powerful position use in order to make the most of their authority. We also refer to the language of love. The special language that is shared by two people who love one another. Sometimes the word that they use, no only terms of endearment, er but other words, er special words to them, you know, are part of their own language of love. But there's also the language that destroys. Language that belittles, that if you like pushes down other people. And with our growing appreciation of the importance of language, there's been an upsurge in language that is sexless, reinforcing the belief that both male and female are equal. We're also trying to speak language which is not racist. Or ageist, or elitist. Having been at the Methodist conference last week, or fattist. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We have a a very large brethren, er brother in the methodist ministry, and er when the mayor of Derby addressed the Methodist Conference, he said, you know, he like to come to these kind of events, and he'd talk about the specific sort of things. And he says, he always looks out to see who is the f the local Friar Tuck. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And er this particular minister was all everyone was sort of looking in his direction and pointing. And er when you get up to speak at the conference, you have to give your name and the reason why you're there. And er when this chap got up to speak he said, Tuck, conference elected. [speaker001:] l [speaker002:] And brought the house down. And er someone else who was on the large side, also stood up and they all giggled at him, and he said he'd had enough of this fattist language. But he took it all in good part. But Jesus knew all about the power of language. Just as [LAUGHTER] Jesus seemed to know [] about everything that there is in our life. And the way in which he used words, was incredibly powerful. For he had the bi the ability to take the ordinary things of life, and interpret them in an effective way. He spoke of a shepherd with his sheep. He spoke of a woman sweeping her home. And of a father's arguments with his two sons. That rings bells already. And he spoke of problems between landlords and tenants. And he used these things to illustrate his message about the kingdom of God. And of course if we can't interpret, God's kingdom, the Christian faith, in everyday language, how can we interpret it? If we can't make the gospel of Jesus relevant to today, how can we lead other people to faith? So what do we do? What is our experience of language in this church? Do we find that when we sit in worship, often the language that preachers use, especially when they use some of the so called theological language. They talk about salvation, redemption, sanctification, Christology,... eschatology, Come on Jack, some nice long words. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah and all you know things that it's almost expected that you will understand what they mean. Which to be honest, a lot of people do not understand. And as someone once said, it's not the long words that we should worry about, it's the short ones. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [] [speaker002:] Sin. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Faith. God. So you know, what's your experience of the language that you hear.... Anyone want to say anything? [speaker010:] I'm a great [cough] I'm a great believer in the fact that everybody should hear the gospel in their own tongue. [speaker002:] Right. Therefore? [speaker010:] Well er the language, they use. These words are I love them, I love them, redemption, and sanctification and so on, I love them, but er we've gotta put it in a different way. We've gotta put it in a modern, secular way or more secular. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker005:] Jesus did didn't he. secular way. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] It's the theologians that are making it complicated.... [speaker001:] Well I think for most people who are coming into a church, seeking something, the inclusion of words such as you outlined, puts up an enormous barrier, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and they would go away, full of misunderstandings, of self doubt. I mean there are a couple of those words I don't know what you're talking about, quite honestly. Erm I don't expect that my life will change immediately if I found out about them. [LAUGHTER] But if someb if somebody put them in plain language to me, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] that I went home with, erm we had very good relevant local dialogue with the minister yesterday morning, simple things within twenty five miles of our experience, that made us all think very hard. I for one think that sort of thing, to people searching for something, makes a lot of impact. [speaker002:] Would you say though that on the whole, the language that you hear uttered in worship here, is relevant, helpful and u easily understood. By all? [speaker001:] Are you talking about the words or the message? Yeah two different things aren't they. [speaker002:] I'm I think I'm talking about the words first of all. I think we can all get the flavour of what the message is about even if we don't understand all the language. I mean it's a bit like watching the television while you're doing the ironing. You can't be actually following the whole of the action all the time, cos you have to make sure you're not burning a hole in the shirt. But you get a general flavour of what the action is about, and you follow most of it. And I think that often, you know listening to sermons is a bit like that, especially as you don't concentrate all the time. So I think I've I mean you put me right, but I think I'm talking about the words, rather than the essential message. [speaker001:] a problem with the words. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] message [LAUGHTER] It's very subjective isn't it. It depends on the skill of the communicator. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] And how well they communicate. And I mean some of the people who lead our worship, are very stereotyped in their language. And then you, you know, they use the same phrases, and they don't communicate really. They stay where they are. Er they don't move us on or they don't move me on in my thinking, and they don't lay down the charge, cos they're predictable and and they're using. I think there's one thing though that we've got to avoid, if if we're going to pass any of our information across, and that's the element of fashion. That, you know, in many of the words you came up with to start with, there's an element of of fashion, in avoid ageism, avoiding sexism, and things like that. And we we don't want to make that the end in itself. We had a good guide I think when it was at one of the er welcoming services to the new ministers, I don't think it was yours, before yours. Geoffrey made a comment about select preacher, because you don't particularly like the way he puts the message over. Pray for him, there will be a message somewhere. You know, I think this is the distinction that Bob was making about the words, and the meaning. If we look for the fashion that's the veneer, it's the meaning that's the more important. I I don't think I mean, to me it's a bit like, dare I say it, pandering to, other outside forces. As regards anything else. The issue is that you know we build ourselves round the church. And we mustn't let words and other fashionable elements, become too dominant. [speaker002:] But is not the point that erm we want those who are concerned about fashionable elements, to be attracted by our worship, cos we want everyone to be attracted. And that we don't want to put up anything that'll be a stumbling block, to people coming. [speaker001:] Which I think got some business circles. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Mm. And nothing to do with the running of. [speaker002:] My experience, just to take one example of non-sexist language, and when I was in college in the mid eighties, it was the thing you know. It all had to be his and hers, or ours or whatever. Is that when you actually sit down and you you know we if we were to actually cross out the words that were sexist in the service book, you know, er and put the non-sexist alternatives in. like er we have sinned against our fellow men, you know that one we say in the prayer of confession. Now it's actually much more scriptural to say we have sinned against our neighbours. Cos we're supposed to love our neighbours, not our fellow men. And that is the non-sexist alternative. To fellow men. We have sinned against our neighbours. Now if we were actually to do that in our service books, which is what one of the things that the Methodist conference suggests we consider, just crossing out and putting in the correct non-sexists language, I bet you that eighty percent of our church would be up in arms. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But my experience is also, if we'd bought the books that had been printed neighbours in the first place, no one would have noticed the difference. When you pray in non-sexist way. When you pray in a sexist way, those who are concerned about it notice. And therefore I believe it's worth making the effort to use non-sexist language, because no one notices, and using sexist language may just offend and put off one or two. And that's not what I'm in the business of doing. Now you you can use that then about all these other examples of you know elitism and er and er racism and that sort of thing. It's interesting how when you know, we meet the standard, nobody can take it i notice it really. Do you want to say something Colin? [speaker006:] Well I think that's illustrated by printing off the words, I am your son, I am adopted in your family, I am your child, I am adopted in your family. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] If you print the words,adopte child, adopted in your family. If the word, son, there, you the decide, sing child if you feel more comfortable with that, you're up in arms. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker006:] You might as well go and and sing something else. [speaker002:] Yeah that's right. [speaker006:] I'm actually more concerned about, sort of this sort of stereotyped prayer language [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] that we get. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker006:] And er I don't think I'm being too sort of general here if I sort of quote the place of the local preacher or the the person who's leading our worship. sort of thinking, Ah this prayer is for the children, I'll pray for the wonderful world that God's created. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker006:] And that really does annoy me. And if kids have haven't shut off before then, they always get that prayer if the preacher is being particularly sensitive or insensitive to you know, You talk about a God of nature. In actual fact our children have feelings of joy and happiness and sadness just as we do, And they have they have the same emotions as we do. And I really do think that is poor.... [speaker002:] Do you believe that that the language then is not a big issue in our fellowship. Can anyone tell me why we put it on the list of things we wanted to discuss then? [speaker001:] I think you just I think you've hit it there. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] The language is not an issue in our fellowship. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I think the Holy Spirit If we're to go outside the windows [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] The Holy Spirit is a bigger issue. The Holy Spirit is a bigger issue. A man can say a most extraordinary thing there Holy Spirit it'll come across. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] It does in itself. [LAUGHTER] I think er on the er the walls, bringing the people in, is, if they understand that they do not believe er or that that within their heart, then that's the difficulty that's the sort of bridge we've got to get over. It's hopefully through the understanding that they will believe but [speaker002:] Yes the words are important to people's understanding aren't they? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] They're not actually that im they're not important about bringing them to faith. Though understanding is perhaps the first step. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker002:] And er of course the point that Jack makes is the the point that brings them to faith is the work of the Holy Spirit, and not the work of anybody else. Is there anything I mean I think I know the answer to the question, but is there anything we can do to improve the language that's uttered in our church? To help it to be more acceptable, or is it already acceptable to those who do not yet attend? He says in confidence and faith. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think we could be more sensitive to those people who worship, for one reason or another, worship on their own. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] was picked up in in the the church family service, church. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah we discussed last week. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. Last time we met sorry.... Okay. [speaker001:] I would think it could be helpful, now and then, to have simple explanations of some of the words used say erm where we're building to a communion service, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] for instance. And whilst in the membership classes, we go through an explanation and a discussion, after that we tend to just repeat them. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And erm maybe, the text for the day could be, some of the language we used in services like that. [speaker002:] Well actually it is, yes it is. Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes I mean that's very important. I mean one of the things I was taught when i my training for work with children, was that erm, it's alright to use big l long words, for children, as long as you explain to them what the words mean. Er it doesn't mean that you always got to use simple language. Because I mean children need to grow and understand what longer words mean as well. And you can talk about erm er adoration, shall we say, as long as you explain to them what adoration means. Erm and I think it's exactly the same with some of the words that you know that I quoted earlier. That we can use them, but we must not always assume that everybody understand what they mean. And I think it's that hidden assumption that a lot of people find offensive. So you've got to be in the know, you've got to be in the club, to understand the jargon. [speaker001:] Mm. I think it's just into my mind, I was assuming you meant the the free speech within the church, the the open prayer and the and the sermons. Which I don't have a problem with. But the thing I've noticed coming in, for the first time,a and and two prayers spring to mind, one's [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] and one is the purity. Er I just can't think of the words I mean, but if you if you run through those, it's quite off-putting. And I I remember being eight, nine, ten, eleven years old, and knowing them all off by heart, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] and not knowing what they meant. Mm. Hadn't got a clue. We worthily magnify thy Holy name. And er [speaker002:] We are not worthy even to gather up the crumbs under your table, oh gracious Lord. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It is thy nature always to have mercy. Yes. [speaker001:] It's er... it isn't it isn't everyday language, and I'm not sure that it helps us express what we really want to say. You you could take it a step further and with seeing that on the paper yesterday morning in service, we read the twenty third psalm. Try reading that and explaining the words of that, to somebody who has no knowledge of the Christian faith, I thought was quite a challenge. But some of the hymns we sing as well. Right. Right. [speaker002:] Well perhaps we ought to give people a s a a list a piece of paper and a pencil when they come into church one day, and say, Write down all the words that you hear today, or sing today that you do not understand. And make it completely anonymous. It'd be an interesting exercise wouldn't it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well we could er make a dictionary. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] So somebody came, I don't know who it was, recently and observed communion. different type of communion. [speaker002:] Nigel brought an alternative liturgy. Didn't he. [speaker001:] Was the language in that simpler? It wasn't that much simpler. No. It was different. different. [speaker002:] I mean the Methodist Church has launched six new liturgies for communion, as experiments to see how people react to them. Can you remember we used on at Lent. On for Lent and Passinontide. Erm and I thought on the whole, the language was scriptural. I mean it was just lifted from the scripture and and put into a prayer or whatever. I I mean I found it, you know, I mean very strong from that point of view. Er but it wasn't particularly everyday language. [speaker001:] And why can't we have a communion service in everyday language? That surely could be rewrote the prayers on the lectern. And come out with a more meaningful prayer. That we could introduce to our neighbours first they came through the door. [speaker003:] I think you've got to be careful though. If you go too far down that road, you lose your sense of awe and wonder, which I think is important, personally. [speaker001:] That I agree.... [speaker002:] Okay. Bill, you don't need to keep putting your hand up, it's okay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We're very informal really. [speaker003:] You started off by erm talking about how er Jesus tackled the problem and er it seems to me that that erm is what is a very great example really. I mean he'd he'd use so often the experience of the people who were listening, so when a went down to, they all knew what he was talking about. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] And then he would say the Kingdom of of Heaven, you may or may not know what that is depending [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] on whether you're in the club or not, but he said. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] The Kingdom of Heaven is like this. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] and he and erm I think if we kept if we kept that at the front of our minds, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] when we used it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm er or or tackling issues like you know, sanctification or [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And then I think that help. [speaker002:] Absolutely I mean i the the the trouble I'd find it is is is the right way round to tackle it. I mean you could think of a brilliant illustration, and then you work the message out from it, which is the wrong way round. Cos you're actually supposed to think of what the message, the essential message you want to get across, and then work your illustration out accordingly. Now that's the hard thing. Now I'm I mean I give you an example. Tomorrow I go into Radio Nottingham to record three more thought for the days. Three ninety second slots. I'm talking about cold sausages, tidying up after the kids, and a school activity day. And you start with, I started with those three things, and worked out three essential messages. Not at all linked, okay. If you want to know what the messages are, you have to listen on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday next week by the way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But [LAUGHTER] you know if you wanted to talk about sanctification, as a for instance, that's growing in grace and holiness, becoming more the person that God wants us to be. As we grow in faith. More Godlike, more holy. Erm and I a work of God's grace a in us to make us like that. Now how do you then, starting from that standpoint, bring that you know into everyday language. [speaker001:] You have to do either your own or somebody else's er bit of the story. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And we're not very good at that. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] We don't practise it, er we rely on er the sort of language form of the sermon which er is unchallenged largely, after the fifth.... [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Because of our tradition of relying so much on the sermon. [speaker002:] Mm. We do yes. And I don't resent that at all. But I can see you know I mean that in itself is a blockage to many people isn't it. Now I wonder how many people came to North last night because they knew there wasn't gonna be a sermon. They got a five minute pep talk but they didn't get a sermon. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] Interesting. Okay. Have we finished. I mean it's been a helpful conversation, erm you know I'm not s I you know you persuaded me, rightly or wrongly, that it's not that much of an issue in in our fellowship, but it's something that we do always need to be aware of. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The words that we use. I mean anyone who comes into contact with foreigners, and them trying to grasp our language, knows you know has an insight into how difficult into how difficult it can be for some some people. [speaker001:] That's just just a little aside on that. The the most common thing I've come across. [break in recording] [speaker002:] going round, is it still plugged in? [speaker001:] It I think. [speaker002:] No no it's not, he explained to me exactly what I had to do, before he went. Turn the tape over. That's right. Yeah. Okay let's move on from language then. Let's er just give a little bit more consideration to church family services. And er all age worship. Now I mean I bring it back to you on the agenda for two reasons. First of all because we said in the minutes last night, er last week, last time whenever it was. Further consideration is to be given to this topic, but it was agreed that it would be generally more helpful if we understand that family services, were not necessarily for those with families, but a celebration of the whole church. Therefore they should be renamed church family services. So I bring it back because we said we would consider it further. And also because the whole issue of all age worship, was one of the things that we put on the list of what we want to discuss. And I bring it to you in the context of our conversation about junior church. Cos Bill's mother wrote a very interesting letter to the Methodist Recorder last week. Which you've probably not read. Which basically says, if Friday Sunday school works, then let's have it. You know, it hasn't all got to happen on a Sunday. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] And one of the prime moves for all age worship when it first started, was to say, you know, if Christian education is going to take place at other times, than on a Sunday, then what do we do together, for all ages, in worship. You know if the children are not going to go out, and the adults are not going to have their own education classes, which let's be honest most of us don't attend or or have anything to do with. Then worship, has got to encompass all age groups. And so those who devised all age worship in the in the sort of early eighties or late seventies, when it was the thing, devised it either to be just worship, or to be both education and worship. Whereby the whole church family, broke up into groups for a period of education, and then came together for a time of celebration and worship. Which drew all the strands of all that they'd learnt together. Now this may be another way of solving problem. Of saying let's have Christian education on another day of the week, let's have all age worship, in whatever form, on a Sunday morning. And let's have our traditional Methodist preaching service, on a Sunday night. Now I'll throw all that into the melting pot, and we'll see what we come out with. [speaker001:] Excellent idea. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now that is I mean all age worship every Sunday? [speaker001:] Yes why not? [speaker002:] Be a radical depar we'd have to learn an awful lot about what it really meant. None of this playing around with it like we do with our family services at the moment. Where you think of what this week's gimmick's going to be. If we're honest. [speaker001:] ... [speaker002:] It's always got some good theological or religious or Christian point about it, so... [speaker001:] I don't see that any barrier really exists to including any age group other night of the week. But I do see that that would perhaps to attain for young people again. As another draw on their time, homework etcetera. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm the little bit we do of Boy's Brigade Yeah. seems to be quite useful nowadays. It's quite interesting sometimes how you get a question back or you get closer to the young people as a result. Maybe we should encourage that sort of leap more, erm even perhaps other people in our church family, being involved in that. Mhm. I mean people who would not normally be involved with young boys or young girls, into a quarter of an hour of contact. That could provide a stronger link to sides.... [speaker002:] Does anybody want to say any more about our present church family services? Bearing in mind that I'm taking one in a fortnight's time. And we're having a baptism.... Okay let's move on.... I'm sorry I've lost me agendle now. What we gonna do now, Stella? [speaker003:] You've taken my agenda. [speaker002:] I've taken your agenda have I. [speaker003:] Yeah, [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well I've taken me own as well. [speaker003:] Is it under there, is that it? [speaker002:] Oh there's yours, there's mine. [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker002:] Should children be allowed to receive Holy Communion, discuss.... [speaker001:] What's a scriptural point. What's the scriptural? [speaker002:] Are you asking me? [speaker001:] If there if there is a point scripture. I don't know whether there is or there isn't. [speaker005:] Can I just say something? [speaker002:] Yes. Let me write your name down. [speaker005:] about necessarily taking it, but I think they certainly ought to be made aware of sort of what it involves and and what it really means. Cos I remember as as a little one, I hadn't got a clue, and the whole meaning of it was lost completely. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker005:] And I think when you're little you don't really understand and, unless your parents tell you, then... [speaker002:] Er the main stumbling bock block that people point to for this, is the I think it's in Paul's writings, when he says that the communion must not be taken unworthily or without you know due thought and and sincerity. [speaker001:] sincerity [speaker002:] You know, I can't exactly sort of quote you word for word. But you know, there is an instruction there, that we must, we must be careful, and prepared to examine ourselves in in all sincerity and truth, before we come to communion. Now traditionally the argument has run, has said. Well you know, if we take that scripture seriously, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] then certainly children should not be receiving communion. [speaker001:] How do other faiths tackle that reading. That's not catholic view. I mean they encourage fairly early er [speaker002:] Yes they do. [speaker001:] confirmation. Their conception of salvation is a bit different isn't it? Well I'm not sure I know. I'm not saying we should [speaker002:] No I don't really know the answer to the question. [speaker001:] I don't know the answer myself. But it but it's often misinterpreted, as being of the right mind and having the right attitude, about understanding [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] what they're doing. Now I mean many of the erm practices of religion I'm not sure I understand them all, but but I still take part in them. You know.... [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I don't understand how a car works, but I still drive it. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] What age are you talking about? Of a child? [speaker002:] Well any you know what does it mat [speaker006:] You know how how how any age? [speaker002:] Er you know I think i er it's all up up for grabs really. I mean once you can eat and drink. [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker002:] You know. Why not? [speaker001:] imagine if the family is meeting round a table, and the dish is passed round, and the children are not allowed to take any. I know a lass that was taking communion.... [speaker002:] Right.... What age are we talking about?... What [speaker001:] This lass she was a w a woman. She was [speaker002:] Oh right yes. [speaker001:] she was born again. [speaker002:] You'd certainly have to rewrite the communion service, for young people to understand it. [speaker001:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] They are smashing. Yeah. Yes. [speaker001:] I think it's a case of, as Karen says, explaining things. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Bringing the younger children into church just these last few weeks, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] has created a lot of questions. I mean one little boy came in, and he said, What's that sword doing on the table? Aye. [LAUGHTER] So I. And this time he did say, you know, the cross. And he wanted to know why the books were there and [LAUGHTER]. You know there's so many questions that need answering. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm because these are the sort of things that don't come over at school. They might tell them the stories, the bible stories at school, but I mean the general church Yeah. worship, they don't understand do they? [speaker002:] No. [speaker005:] But I should think it'd be quite simple to put across. The body, the represents the body, the blood, the wine represents the blood.... [speaker002:] That'd be sufficient would it Matt? [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Well it doesn't require a great deal does it. [speaker002:] I mean if we're gonna do justice to communion, it's about remembrance, it's about thanksgiving, it's about celebration, it's about and and there's there's the corporate nature of it too. Coming together. Yeah. And and receiving together and eating together. Which takes us right back to you know, to the temple in Jerusalem, and sacrifices and all sorts. I'm not suggesting we should drag all these things up, but they're all important facets of what communion is about. [speaker005:] Passover isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes that was one of the bases on which communion is [speaker005:] And the blood covenant you see comes into it as well doesn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. Once you start. [speaker001:] Going back to your earlier words about the illustrations and the message, what are we trying to achieve. Are we trying to achieve, erm unity or bringing children in to do something in a corporate way. Or do we want them really to understand what they're doing first presumably. So our long term goal, surely is to allow children to have communion. So long as they understand or we have communicated to them, why we want them to do that. What it means. And at the moment I don't think we do communicate that. [speaker005:] Now do you know i i if the feast of the Passover, did the children join in there? Cos Christ was [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker005:] just re-enacting that. [speaker002:] The whole family would come together, it would be Yes a total family celebration. [speaker001:] Absolutely. [speaker002:] I mean people travel from all over the world to be with their family for Passover didn't they. [speaker005:] I don't see what difference it makes, a child not understanding, there's plenty I don't understand. [speaker002:] Cos the littlest one at the Passover was the one who answered the questions wasn't it? Cos they asked these questions about why it was being held and everything. And the the child, the smallest child is trained to give the answers. [speaker005:] child. [speaker002:] Me my my view is this, for what it's worth, Er we have two sacraments in the Methodist church, Baptism and Holy Communion. Sacrament is to do with with God's free grace being available to all. If we say that children cannot receive communion, we'll als als ought also to s ask question about whether infants should be baptised. It's the same grace that we're talking about. And if infants are baptised, as they are in our church, then I would find it very very difficult to deny a child, to come to communion.... And I believe that we should have a policy, whereby children would normally receive communion when they are in a communion service. And that includes older people, who are not yet confirmed or made members of the church. That's that's the first point. The second point is is to echo the er the words that Matt just said about that lady who was converted. John Wesley was very firm, that Communion was a means of grace. And when he talks about a means of grace, he means something that happens to you that can bring you to faith. And he used to cite several different means of Grace. And he believed as Matt, you know, gave testimony to the fact, that when you come to Communion you can actually be converted. And therefore to only say, Those who love the Lord can receive, is actually a denial that it's a means of grace. So that's why I always say, those who seek to love the Lord. Right. So that's the second thing. Er the third thing is that if we do accept that it should be a general practice in our church, the the parents of the children, who are within our church family, need to be told. And it shouldn't just something that's forced. And if they choose to withdraw their children from Communion, then that's their decision, not ours. Erm and that a you know and I would go along with everything we've said about educating children, and educating the whole congregation, let's be honest. And I have got a number of family services that just do Communion. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And finish up with Communion. I mean we did have one at Easter time didn't we? [speaker001:] Yeah. But but in in just the little few words you used then, I would have thought that many parents in this church would react positively. the difference between seeking the love, and loving, that expression that you used. I would have thought you'd get a very good response. And I I think the illustration about Baptism, hadn't really struck me before tonight. And I think it's very significant. [speaker002:] Perhaps I'll write an article for Contact, erm along those lines and see what sort of response we get. But would there be anyone against. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] quite as young as that er you know but I mean er then as I got older I d I did live with me grandmother. [speaker002:] When? [Ada:] For a bit. [speaker002:] Wh at what age? [Ada:] Er ooh I figure I'd only be quite young perhaps might be about five. I can just remember m I can just picture my grandma she was. And I can just remember where she lived. I know it went up two steps. Of course and then she dies and erm I went back to me own mother you see. [speaker002:] Why why did you with your grandmother? [Ada:] I don't know my grandmother must have took to me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ada:] And er and then er of course I went back to me mother after me grandmother died, I went to me mother and er mind you when I was th young there was a lot of poverty about you know there was er no security pay and no er... and you couldn't get any money from anywhere or anything like that you know and er so it used to er had to do the best you can. Me dad used to do anything kind you know or work. To well they used to call what they call them a labour man you know he'd do any sort of work. [speaker002:] Do you mean that he didn't have a permanent job? [Ada:] no he didn't have a permanent one, no not for a bit. Not for quite a while. And then erm then when er once when I was only little there was a pit strike on I think I'd only be about seven, somewhere there. And you was allowed to go and get the coal from the pit siding. Like there such as housewives have always got no coal. Of course there was no gas fires about then. no gas fires. You used to have to cook everything on your fire. [speaker002:] You had to cook everything? [Ada:] On your fire. Yes there used to be a oven one side, a boiler on other and er your fire in the middle and the fire used to have er a a thing what used to come down, and you used to stand your kettle on there to boil. Or you used to stand your saucepans on there to boil. And then when you was boiling your potatoes or vegetables you you used to have tho th the iron saucepans in them days. And you used to be ab well you used to be able to over the flames of the fire on one side, and then er a saucepan on the other on the in one side with your vegetables in one side, with your potatoes in and then you used to have your oven with a for your meat. There used to be two shelves in the oven. [speaker002:] Oh I see. [Ada:] And on that side, what we fireplace it used to be what we used to call a boiler, you used to fill it with water and it used to the fire used to heat it for you to take it we used to call what we used to call ladle it out into a a bowl to wash your pots with or wash your floor with or anything with. [speaker002:] So you had to scoop it out into [Ada:] Yes well you used to scoop your water out with what you used to call a ladle in them days. S and er and then of course when you'd got your so much water out again you used to go and fill it up again. Fill your fill your boiler up again. Oh it used to last all day. You know and then er and then er and we'd got no gas in when I was quite little. There was no gas. You used to use oil lamps. Paraffin lamps. I've seen my mother stand them on the table, middle of the table you know, the oil lamps. And then I've seen t er me mother once had er oil lamp from the ceiling and it was round and the oil lamp used to stand in the middle. And the surround used to have nice fancy work round you know to make it so it wouldn't stand on the table cos me mother bought one of those because it used to be a bit dangerous on the table if you knocked it you see and [speaker002:] What with the children? [Ada:] Er yes if you know if knocked the table any time they fall over, liable to set fire you see with the paraffin and that. And you used to have what they call a wick in it you know to light it and turn it down at night time and blow it out down the. And then in the streets, there was no electric lights in the street, they all used to be gas. And er a gent used to have er a gentleman going round with a great long stick. And er just pulling the chain in the thing what er like a big white globe they used to be. Stand high up and big white globe, and the used to little got a little door. He used to lift this door up with his stick and just put it inside and light it. And then er in the morning part, he'd come and turn them all out. That's how it was in them days. [speaker002:] Can you tell me something about, can you describe the house where you lived? How how many rooms did they have? [Ada:] Oh we used to er there used to be er er two rooms downstairs and then there used to be what you used to call er the attic they used to call them in them days. Er go up another flight of stairs to another room. They used call the it used to be called the attic you see in them days. And er you used to have erm lot of old houses now. They used to have er a a what you call a front room, and then we used to call it the kitchen and then the other place where you wash your pots and the sink in and everything in, it used to be called the scullery in them days. [LAUGHTER] And erm some houses used to some houses used to go up some steps and two steps and The one where I used to be and you went you used to go up two steps. And er and then there used to be some houses what er we didn't live in one of them but there used to be a lot of houses what used to be railings round, and there used to be steps and you'd go down the steps, into the And they used to c they used to live downstairs and then well of course when you're in the house in the side the room they used to have another flight of steps to come upstairs to a l a front room or a lounge or whatever you mind to call it. All them sort of houses in them days. [speaker002:] What would be downstairs then? [Ada:] Pardon? It used to er be same as ordinary room you know it people used to [speaker002:] The kitchen? was it? [Ada:] live in it. Yes. Oh they used to be ever so funny houses you know and in them days and The er you never used to see in the oh a lot of houses and you never used to see big windows like these. They used to have big windows, but they used to a all be them there little tiny ones like that. You'd got to clean and then er [speaker002:] Can you can you remember your mother doing the housework? [Ada:] Yes. Yes [speaker002:] Well sort of [Ada:] telling you that. She used to mind you in them days you there was no er fitted carpets on your floor. You used to have to scrub them. And er just the same as your table there was no er polish top tables when I was little. You used to have to scrub them. Scrub them white. [LAUGHTER] And they were like that and then of course they used to be er no washing machines you used to be at these here tubs. And there used to be a rub board. You used to have to rub all your clothes and on this rub board or get a little brush and and scrub the s collar and your cuffs and then in the salt water and get all them in and then you used to have to ponch them with a ponch or a dolly peg, what used to go round like that you see. And there used to be all them sort of things. Then me mother used to do lace work. Turn a shilling or two what they call lace work. They used to In the lace market there used to be factories what used to make lace er and er a lady used to er go and take fetch so much lace out and she used to give it out to people what wanted to do it. They used to call it drawing or clipping and scalloping you see. And er lace what's got all the scallops round, well you used to have to do that. And then they used to well it used to be ever so long, yards and yards of it and then we used to what they call drawing. Th drawing you see there used to perhaps be some like that there wide and then the er then that narrow well you'd got to divide them by what they call drawing. It's just a thread and draw it out and then it they used to come apart. I used to sit and help me mother to do it. And [speaker002:] How how much time would she spend on this work? [Ada:] Oh it er oh it used to take it all depends how much they gave her to do you see. And of course then when she had done it they used to fold it up they used to just get it then and go like that you know, and just fold it up and then when it was done all done you see, they'd take it back to this here lady and then of course they used to pay you for it. It might be two or three shillings perhaps five shillings, it all depends how much your you got done. [speaker002:] But would she say spend about two hours doing it? [Ada:] Ooh yes [speaker002:] Mhm. [Ada:] Yes oh aye sometimes two hours or s or sometimes sit all afternoon and you know and and er a l a lot. Well all that and then there used to be what they used call er net mending but my mother used to do that. She made these er mosquito nets, people used to fetch them out and mend them. And then take them back again. But my mother never done that. [speaker002:] Why [Ada:] Well cos she d she couldn't do it. Used to have to be very rather experienced in them days to do this here net mending. Mosquito net mending you know we used to do a lot in Nottingham. Of course then there's me mother, [cough] as we got older older me mother used to work at er what they used to call dressing rooms. They used to do a lot of these er mosquito nets. And li you know, er clean them and starch them and stretch them on frames and Have you ever been in a dressing room? [speaker002:] No. Can you [Ada:] Well you just ought to. There's a it's a great long room then a at the top here they call what they call fans. big swing wide things used to go round when they was going. Well then there used to be frames Ooh er as long as a street the room used to be. Well when they've got this here lace, there used to be all pins at the side of this er of these er frames. And then er when [speaker002:] These would be made of wood, would they? [Ada:] No they was made of steel. [speaker002:] Ah. [Ada:] They used to be sharp if you wasn't careful. Didn't know how to do them. And they used to erm er get this er net or lace right what they were gonna what they after it'd been starched and everything. And they used to have to put it like that on these er pins all the way down. And then then after that, the overlooker what was there used to say, Well you you pull frame out so many pegs you see, and it used to pull out, stretch this here lace, and pull out and then they used to dowels at the bottom used to plug in to stop the frames from going back. And then they used to put this er these er wafters on you see to dry. This er lace. Well and then when it was dry, the at the ends there there used to be another long of pins that road to put the ends on. Well and then there used to be a stripper it's a a long thing like that and there and er you'd put it on. There used to be one woman one end and one woman the other, with something like something similar to the shape as a ladder. And er get and then strip this er at the side, cos a girl used to be at the front to strip all this here lace of these here pins. Then thes they used a pole this er and you used to have to behind stripping all these off lace off the pins while these here ladies was folding this er net up. On these here ladders. Like a same shape as a ladder I used to say they was. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] And er that's and then of course and then of course in the other place where they used to do it, they used to just pull these ladders out and these there nets was all folded up and everything ready to to do away abroad or anywhere you know. [speaker002:] Which which firm was this? Can you remember the name? [Ada:] Well there used to be a dressing rooms on erm on Road there. Er now what was the dressing rooms called? And then then there used to be on Boulevard. You know where that there where they're building now? Before it got burnt and that there used to be a dressing rooms there. As well I forget the names. [speaker002:] How many hour How long would your mother work there? [Ada:] Ooh she worked there for years me mother did. [speaker002:] But but how many hours a day did she work there? [Ada:] Well in them days you used to have to er work for eight till six or anything like that you see same as when I was wo first went to work. Our time was eight till six. And then Saturday mornings eight till twelve. They never used to call it overtime, that was your proper weeks work. From Monday to Saturday. There was n no Saturdays knocking off then. [LAUGHTER] And you and you used to get the same money. When I went first went to work at a laundry. I used to work there eight till six and er I got four and six a week. Four and six when I went down Nottingham to work, at the box place, Henry 's I got seven and six a week. And I got paid one and six some weeks for a weekly ticket. In them days mother used to give me sixpence to spend and [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ada:] Mind you you could do a lot with that sixpence. We used to go to pictures. Used to get in pictures for thruppence, tuppence and thruppence. [speaker002:] Which picture house was that? [Ada:] And there used to be two on the Road, one used to be called Palladium and one used to be called the Palace. They all pulled down and superma er shops built there now. [speaker002:] But this was when you moved to wasn't it? [Ada:] Yes. [speaker002:] Can can we go back again to when you lived at the other place. [Ada:] At Nottingham? [speaker002:] In in Nottingham. Can you can you can you remember the area where you lived. Can you describe [Ada:] Oh [speaker002:] it were there many shops there? [Ada:] Oh yes there was a lot of shops round there. There was a a lot of shops on and then as across the road there used to be a Road and there used to be a lot of shops there. There used to be er a fish shop and er that used to be called 's that fish shop did. You used to go and get a penn'orth of chips and a penny fish. And you could go and get er a get a good dinner for anybody w yeah when they was poor if they had fish and chips for their dinner you see it never used to cost them all that much for for a dinner. And of course the tram cars used to run along there. [cough] And then where the ice rink is, there used to be a lot of houses and shops round there. you see then they pulled them all down and built the ice rink there. And then er where the facing the ice rink there used to be a pub called the cricketers, well that's still there. Well there used to be a lot of shops there. When there used to be all houses round there, there used to be a fish shop there as well. And then there used to be erm Mrs her name was, used to keep her little shop at bottom of the yard. And you used to go there and we used to have er anybody mashing the tea what they used to call it. She used to th she used to sell it and er hap'orth of milk for a ha'penny. Half a cupful you used to get for a ha'penny. You see round the factories round there. And er lot of shops there. And [cough] and then what we used to call. There was a little post office there and there used to be some shop on there. There was erm Mrs 's was on. And er she used to sell corned beef and er pickled onions or anything like that for people what was working round there what couldn't get home for dinner. If they didn't bring any dinner of their own. You see. And er then er then at the at bottom there used to be er a clothes shop. Well it used to be a clothes shop but what you used to call a pawn shop in them days as well. At bottom of er. And er [speaker002:] Did did many people take stuff to to the [Ada:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Did many people take stuff to the pawn shop? [Ada:] Yes used to be ever such a lot. Ever such a lot of people. Perhaps you used to go and pawn the husbands suits or a anything like that till the following Saturday or Friday and fetch them out you see, and that cos there was very for people in them days, I mean they didn't get a deal of help from anywhere. And then they they used to pape lads going round selling papers you know the newspapers with no shoes and stockings on the feet. They used to be nice little lads and all going round and quiet and the they used to then the tram cars used to lo run along Road. And er and and er through the meadows there. Down through Midland Station and all down there. And it all used to leave to Trent Bridge. And then er I were telling you about the er where the marshes wasn't I. Where there used to be a great big island. Ooh it were ever such a big island there was. With a little wall round and on this island there used to be a lot of houses on and they used to be all what they call alms hous old people lived in them and that. And then er when then as far as where is there used to be erm a fountain. A water fountain and it used to have little cups all the way round as you could go and have a drink. Out of. And then er then I mean er, wasn't so big then as it is now. It and they never used to sell nothing over sixpence. And then when first opened, they never used to sell anything over five shillings. They used to be tea services, carpets, nice odd carpets and mirrors and dolls and everything. You well you used to get a lovely doll for one and eleven in the old money. Beautiful doll. And then you know where the foun the water fountain was where the marsh is, there used to every weekend there used to be a er a chip and fish stall there w and hot peas. There used to have people used to all go and get some hot peas and the fish and chips and eat them you know, as they was going home and and all like that. [speaker002:] Was this on a Saturday did you say? [Ada:] Oh yes. Fridays and Saturdays there's always always one there every week. And then there was with er where Saint Peter's church is, where is now,th there used to be a Punch and Judy show there t every week as well. And th you used kiddies used to go round there, looking at them. And then just same as these barrel organs. They used to all walk round. They didn't only stop in one place. They'd perhaps go round streets, different streets playing them and then they'd er they'd go up and play them up there you know, and and that [speaker002:] What would they do would they s stand on a corner or or [Ada:] Yeah stand yeah stand anywhere and fellow with his er little monkey on and children as you know asking the gentleman all sorts of questions about his monkey, you know, and the monkey'd all dance all sorts of tricks on it you know and the kiddies used to laugh and that. And then er then where Market is where Market is there used to be er er there's a school there I don't know I think it's still there. used to be called a ragged school. I don't know why. But it used to be called a ragged school. Well it used to be er one road used to be called Meadow Flats, and then you go a little way down another road and it used to be called the bottoms. One used to be called the bottoms and one used to be called the Meadow Flats and yet they both led to the same place. You could go right along there and th and it'd land you right into the Victoria nearly. Well it used to be the Victoria Station in them days then before it come Victoria Centre. And er and it all and you used to when our Queen's grandfather was crowned king in nineteen hundred and ten, ooh they trimmed it up beautiful. All Nottingham was beautiful and along there'd got great big flags and they'd trimmed all Christmas they'd they'd sewed all Christmas things on them. Oh of course down there the bottom and that there used to be a lot of erm there used to be some lodging houses what they call lodging houses for people what's got nowhere to go you know, you used to sleep and. And it's just the same where the er marsh is now. But it used to be called Broadmarsh. Well along Broadmarsh there used to be er a lodging house there. And it used to be called 's N's lodging house. There through Broadmarsh. Cos there used to be a lot of houses under the shops along there as well. And it used to lead you up to what they called Hill, the steps, they're still there. And you can cut through there now. And er well you go further through and you can go to the erm And the the Narrowmarsh it was narrow and all, you could shake hands with one another o off the but it now is all council houses is built down there now where they only used to be ordinary little houses. Used to be ever so narrow. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ada:] Called it narro and that's reason they called it Narrowmarsh. The [speaker002:] Where there just houses there then? Just houses? [Ada:] Yes lots of nice houses down there. There used to be a lot of nice shops as you went through Broadmarsh as well. And er then er these two erm er Then when we used to when we was the young you used to be able to go down to Skeggie for a day on train for two and six. To go to Skeggie. Or Cleethorpes and that for the day. [speaker002:] Your parents would take you and [Ada:] Mm. Er yes parents' d take you. Yeah yes the we went to we used to go down there for a day to Skeggie. And er fare's two and six for the day's trip. Er and then I'll tell you then when was in the er on Square and of course this council house as what this council house what's built now, it wasn't there then, it used to be different council house, there used to be a great big archway. And underneath this archway you used to have meat stalls and fish stalls and it used to be called the shambles. And then on the other side there used to be what they called the market. Had all these er stalls it you know er [speaker002:] What did they sell? [Ada:] Oh they used to all different stalls used to sell One stall they used to sell fruit and and that and then perhaps another stall they'd sell pots and er and all like that all down on them stalls. It used to be like just like a the market as in er what's in the Victoria but it was more on open air what they call it in them days. On there. [speaker002:] Did they have any street entertainers around the market? [Ada:] Oh there used to be a lot of s er entertainment coming round the streets there used to be er gentlemen as coming round singing. And er there used to be these er like Scotch people you know, with kilts, with swords and put them on the floor and dance round the swords and. All like that and. And then there used to be the Hippodrome and the Empire. That used to be all stage you know not pictures then it used to be all stage. Well me father used to take us there. And er and then there used to be er [speaker002:] Can you remember what you went to see? [Ada:] Yeah I well I I've seen. And I've seen Harry Lloyd and er Houdini what they call him you know, where he used to be all strapped in chains and get out of tanks and that. Oh I've seen I've seen all them. And then of course and then when we used to go to pictures in afternoon Saturday afternoons when we was little. It only used to be a penny. And they used to er have er a film Of course they used to be silent films and then er er had er and there used to be what they call interval. And they used to stage, well when we used to go for a penny the stage, they used to perhaps have competitions for the childrens what used to want to go on. Perhaps there used to be er erm a lot of hot cross er buns hanging down. And the children's used to be tied behind their back and them what er eat this er cross bun first, used to get a prize. And er and of course that was interval and then er and they used to come and sit down and they used to show you another film. Perhaps it might be Charlie Chaplin, a bit of a comic one or or summat like that and er [speaker002:] What sort of prizes would the children get? [Ada:] Ooh they sometimes used to get books or er they used to get some nice prizes you know, and books and er and that and er and when I was little I once went on stage for a in a skipping competition. And er I won I won a book called Kathleen's Victory. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ada:] I can always remember that yeah, I won a book called And then er when we came out pictures on Saturday afternoon, there always used to be a gentleman there and he'd had a great big basket and he'd like he'd have a bag of sweets and oranges in these er basket and they used to give the children a bag of sweet and orange and they came out and see pictures for a penny. [speaker002:] You used to get them free? [Ada:] You used to get them free. Yes. So er they wouldn't do that in our days would they? And we used to follow serials up in the er on Saturday afternoons you know. There used to be some nice serials for They used to be thrilling you know, er I can remember I wish they'd show them now They used to be what we used to call, The voice on the wire and then there was another serial called, Peggo the Ring. And er and then there was another voice voice called another film called, The er The Second Black Pearl, or some and them and there was the Dagger and [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] These were all se [Ada:] And the grey ghost and all them we saw in serials and of course we used to follow them up go every Saturday afternoon and follow these serials up. For a penny we used to always go to pictures Saturday afternoon when we was little. [speaker002:] What would you do Saturday morning when you were little? [Ada:] Well we used to er well really we never used to do anything kind of perhaps er go out and play or anything like that. Of course as we got older, me dad used to make us helpers mothers you know. We always used to As we got older we all had a little job to do. [speaker002:] Such as what? What sort of job? [Ada:] Er like such as er like er at er night time before we went, we always used to I had to go to bed early. And when we went to bed early we used to we One used to have to fill the kettle, and then the other one used to have to set the table for next morning for next morning. And er well perhaps there was one that used to do anything cos she was perhaps too young. But erm And then we weren't allowed to stay up. Not till we got older. Might be about When we start work we could stay up a little bit later. But on a Saturday nights we used to stay up when we was young. [speaker002:] So how late did you stay up till? [Ada:] Well perhaps about er ten o'clock or something because what er me father used to do. Me mother er and me father they er me mother used to go to picture and then er when the cur and then me me dad didn't like pictures so he used to always meet me mother outside and then they'd perhaps go and have a little drink together and a walk. Well me dad'd never let us stand outside pubs or anywhere you know. Wouldn't let us stand outside anywhere. So we used to go to pictures at Saturday nights. Me dad'd take us to pictures. He didn't used to come in with us but he'd take us. And we'd sit there on er a and then when it was time to come home, when me father used perhaps might be about er nine o'clock or half past, he used to come and the gentleman always used to him. Mr always used to know me dad, he used to say, Are you come for the childrens? And he says, Yes. And me dad used to say, Come on me ducks, just like that and we used to come out with him. And there used to be a sweet shop on the High Road er next to 's and er me dad'd call in He used to keep open till late then. Me dad'd call in there and buy some sweets. And he'd share them between us when we got home. But didn't to eat any that night, we'd got to save them till next day. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ada:] And we'd all go to bed. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And would your mother be there as well? [Ada:] Yes me mother'd be there yes. Oh yeah. No me mother she she did work hard well we all had to do in them days. And of course and then when we got older, when we got in us teens, we used to have to help us mother with the cleaning. You see, when we was at home. One'd have to do the bedrooms, to clean the bedrooms. And ano and the other one'd have to do the stairs. But that one as done the stairs had have to do the bedrooms the other week. And the other one'd do the stairs that week. We used to change it like that. [speaker002:] Did you just help out on a Saturday or [Ada:] And er we used to all do that and then in the week in the weekday [speaker002:] Oh only during the week. [Ada:] at nighttime. [speaker002:] How many children were there? [Ada:] Oh there was er three three daughters. Three where there used to be me, or Mary and er May, she was the youngest, she was only a baby May and Miss er May was cos she was the youngest. But I had two brothers. Of course they didn't used to do anything. No. [speaker002:] They didn't do any housework? [Ada:] No they didn't do any housework. Only the girls. And then on a Sunday morning, we used to erm get up and we used to have to do the cleaning between us. All as me mother's got to do that day was the dinners. In the morning part. And then in the afternoon we'd er We used to get ready and we used to go anywhere where we like you know, as long ann er back for tea. I used to there used to be me and my sister. We er always used to stick together. She's the not a dearly difference between us. There was me and er s and m me sister Mary. She was about er only fifteen months difference between us. [speaker002:] What she was older than you? oh you're the eldest? [Ada:] No I'm older. Yes I shall be eighty one next month. And she'll as be er she'd be er about er seventy seventy nine she would be. Seven between seventy nine and eighty she'd be. And er we always used to pal out together. And people used to say, Oh you're not sisters. You don't see sisters palling out together. Said, Well we doesn't when we're one another. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did you used to enjoy one another 's company? You got on well together? [Ada:] Pa Yes yes yeah. And we have done all us lives. And then we she got married we still kept in touch with one another and I got married and we didn't live far from one another. We lived in the same street. But she lived higher up and I lived lower down. And I used to er very often go up to her house and she'd come down to my house and er. And that and then we'd erm we'd have cups of tea and that. And then er then when her husband died, he er we went out We used to go out together cos me husband never went out much. And er we used to go on the High Road together, shopping together, And perhaps Sunday afternoons she'd say, Oh come on Ada let's have a ride down Nottingham. I said well it's best place to go on Sunday afternoons, we don't spend any money. [LAUGHTER] We'll go and have a cup of coffee, tea something like that you see. Always go and have a cup of tea. And then er and then of course when the council houses pulled dow er when the council pulled the down again, there was these houses you see. We was told to get a mortgage and that of course she she was on her own. Cos her sons had got married and she lived in a little bu flat, bungalow rather. And er and we still used to meet. We used to meet Su Monday afternoon. And we used to meet Tuesday. And then someti we meet Thursday and every Saturday afternoon we used to meet. We used to go walk round and shopping and then we'd go and have a cup of coffee and then we'd both catch a bus. I'd catch one down here, she'd catch her's up home. And er of course and then she took ill and died. She's only been dead s er six year.... [speaker002:] Ca can I go back a bit to to your childhood. [Ada:] Oh to me chi [speaker002:] A A and your and your schooldays. [Ada:] Oh me schoold Oh well there was er [speaker002:] Can you remember any games that you played as a child? [Ada:] Oh yes there used to be what they used to called er we used to call Ticky. You know scatter run and tic one another you know, and and then you used to we used to play er diabolo what you used to call them have you ever seen them. There us used to be two sticks. And there used to be like a big bobbin there and you to and they used to go like that and chuck it up and try and catch it you know, and And we used to play shuttlecock and battledore. [speaker002:] What's that. [Ada:] Why er pardon why it was er You know like these tennis rackets? [speaker002:] Yes. [Ada:] They're like that, and then they've got a shuttlecock the shuttlecock used to er have er like a a cork thing and then there used to be feathers round. And perhaps a little bell in the middle. And you used to er get it on this here one, chuck it up and ca keep catching it. And we used to have what they call er a stick and goos it used to I remember we used to have sti what you call stick and goos It was like a great long thing like that and you used to have a stick and it used to be on the floor and you just tap it and and hit it like that and it goes [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Ada:] Erm there's er [speaker002:] Where wo where would you play these games? [Ada:] Oh we used to play them in the streets or anywhere like that. Yes. you know we never The children wasn't any any trouble. No they play all these these play these er and everything. They used to These they used to be a round used to be round you know and not very used to hit them as you hit them with a stick you see, they used to wheel wheel round and round. [speaker002:] Oh like a like a loop er [Ada:] Yeah. [speaker002:] a round [Ada:] Then we then of course then used to be this er game skipping. Two one girl one end one girl another you know, turning the rope and you skipping in the middle and counting [speaker002:] Did you sort of sing any songs or anything when you were skipping? [Ada:] Ooh yeah. Ooh well they used to well they didn't used to sing a lot of songs but er they used to do a lot of you know playing about and perhaps and then they'd perhaps have a ball. You see. You'd s er a lot of them you'd sta you'd stand up against a wall and then they say, Goaler throw a ball. and you'd just hit it like that and as you hit, you'd got to run and come back again, before she got the ball to t er tap you on er you know, with the ball. And er then you'd got to be on then. [LAUGHTER] Oh we used to oh play all sorts of things like that. When we was young. [break in recording] [speaker002:] Whe when you were didn't it happen Mrs that when you were playing in the street one day, you were knocked over by a tram? [Ada:] Yes well well I were I think I was running after me mother more than anything. Cos I was on me own and er I me ma I think me mother had gone of an errand and of course I run after her. And it it was on. First car that ever run along and it was facing a a chemist what they call. Any old people knows the chemists and it was ge there used to be a park at the side on it and all. Well I got erm and them boards underneath there's some boards underneath the tram car there was, and they s picked me up you see they so when er there was a crowd outside the chemist, I was in somebody took me inside. I can't remember who took me inside. And then er somebody told me mother and of course me mother come in then, And a policeman was there. And of course this policeman used to come and see me ever so often, but me mother never saw his co-operation. No. And er then of course when I got better It hit me all on the head and that well Then er when I went back to school they found out as I couldn't see the board properly. So the sent me to the er eye infirmary and of course the eye infirmary sent me to the blind school. And there used to be a lady named Mrs, used to come and take us. And er the corporation used to give her so many tickets to last her the week. And of course we used to have to go on tram cars to the school and Road. [speaker002:] Was this you and and some other children that she took? [Ada:] Yes. Yes there used to be her son, and there used to be me, and there used to be a a girl name Edith right, and there used to be her sister, Ethel right, and then there used to be another young girl named Clara. And then she used to take all those together and she used to have to give the conductor so many tickets each time she went. And then er we used to take us dinners to school erm whatever your mother had got to give you. If you took eggs there used to always be a lady there at dinner time what used to come round and ask you what you'd got for dinner, and then if you'd got eggs, she used to write your name on the eggs and do them for you. [speaker002:] Oh what, and boil them? [Ada:] Yes. [speaker002:] Oh. [Ada:] Boil them. Or if your mother had got a say she made you a meat and tater pie in a little dish, if you took this little dish with you, the lady used to er warm it up for you. They used the oven there and we used to sit and the you see. And er there was only three classes, there was er I can remember two teachers' names. There was er one named Miss, and the other one was named Mr. And er er and he was alive till not many years ago. And er and of course

[speaker001:] eighteen ninety seven, in 's yard which was at in Derbyshire. [speaker002:] And what what caused your move to you to move to Nottingham? [Ada:] Well Dad he did some drinking. He was on the police blacklist. He got that way, if he wasn't drunk on the days he should have been summonsed they used to trip him up. And as I said he gets blacklisted and he left Derbyshire and come down to Nottingham to work. Comes out of Newcastle pit day. Chap named Bob he was the under manager. It was one of 's pits at the time. Of course sold into. The A C collieries. Well they had those Newcastle that was going towards Marketplace. That was an old that was one of those little old pits. Well now it's all now. Erm well he worked at Newcastle until the seam of coal went through and them at pit worked worked it out that [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] part, So Newcastle was closed down. [speaker002:] When would this be. [Ada:] Ooh. About nineteen hundred and ten. Nineteen hundred and nine to nineteen hundred and ten I think it was. When that pit was closed down. It used to be you know, on the left hand side. [speaker002:] Was this down at was it? [Ada:] Yeah just just past. Now there's all all those houses been built. I noticed when i went by on Sunday, that all those houses have been built, right the way down to the, as you go on er p on erm on what's the name of the place where they first er the first lot of. [speaker002:] is it?? [Ada:] No it's er you know as you go down Road? You pass you pass er the capital past two more roads, streets and you come to this one as goes right the way through into Street at. one part of it. Now I just trying to think what the other the name of the other one was. Runs on to Road from Street. [speaker002:] I can't think. [Ada:] There's a there's the b recreation ground on one corner. You know [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] [break in recording] to er me dad went and to I think pit to work. Well he worked there and when I was we'd left er Road, we'd been up to up up to Terrace. That was next door next door to the baker's, 's. From there we went into c into er I went to and then we come down into Terrace. [speaker002:] So you moved all round. [Ada:] All around that way. [speaker002:] And Street was the place you first [Ada:] Street start. Then st and then e erm Terrace and we went into er er somewhere. Been there. From there we come into Terrace. Terrace. [speaker002:] Mm. Do you remember much about in those days? [Ada:] Ooh yes. Er more houses to what there is now you know. All round Street and that way. I went to the school on Street. And er you all you always went round the boulevard to another road, another street went there and Street went down here. Well on that junction there was a Catholic School, Saint 's I think it was. I was there for so long. Well afterwards we got this house at Mill on er Road.. Well that there was a cobbler's shop, and then the sweet shop. Then there was our house. Then Ted 's Blacksmiths shop was on the r corner. That was Street. Now it's Avenue, goes right the way round. Er Mary Jane 's sandpit us was not very far from where I we where Road School. We used to go across there and we used to go and the hacking away at his. And you used to see you dad'll you you more blisters dad get for when he was chopping this lot. Of course his mother kept a place just across road on Road away from the er away from Road, just a bit further on the road towards towards Mill. And that was where the stables was. We went rating ratting there with ferrets and dogs. And there were some rats in those days. Now they look as if lean and built a Where Pit was, built built close there. And I think they put another bid bridge on for t over the now. But that just by where the bridge comes over the top, there used to be a a field belonging to 's. Which was at the at the time. We used to walk through there to to to Saint 's see. And you used to leave N Pit on your left hand side. Well when when we went there in there in nin in eighteen ninety four, in er in about ni eighteen ninety eight, they had a snow. Er about ninet O O nineteen hundred and eight. They were on strike there. The collieries used to there used to be a wall from the right to the chapel that was at even now in the same place. We used to walk through at back of that chapel right across Neddy 's fields, right up through Wood. [speaker002:] Do you remember do you remember anything about this strike? Was it Pit was on strike? [Ada:] Well it was the Collier Comp com Company [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] like, they were on you used to get about five bob a week. That's all they got off the union at that time of the day. Of course they helped one another. If one had got thruppence he could go in the pub and [LAUGHTER] get [] get stop in there nearly for nearly The pubs used to open at six o'clock you know till eleven o'clock at night. [speaker002:] Were a lot of the colliers boozers like you dad? [Ada:] Well th you know the arms as it is now at? It has a licence till three o'clock. That was only pub that was allowed to keep open till This is af this is after the er licence come in like closing them up and opening in afternoon. They can open at certain times and don't close till three o'clock. That was for the for the men to have a drink if they want one. Or s Pit was about the first one I seen w that had the that had baths pit head baths in this corner. [speaker002:] But that was a bit later wasn't it? Was that [Ada:] That was n that'd be er about nineteen thirty. When they got them. Of course I was working there in nineteen thirty three. But in between that we e we were dad was w going by train from wh to to to. That used to cost one and six a week, for six days, there and back. Mind you it were like all wooden compartment. C they used to call them the horse boxes. But er when I as soon as I was fourteen I walked to and started working next day. I walked from Mill to to get that job. Mind you they brought me back. [speaker002:] Who brought you back? [Ada:] In well it were done you know one fellow get on with that. Mind you I had a ticket I had a weekly cos. [speaker002:] Mm. And how much were you you earning when you started? [Ada:] When I first started I were getting fourteen shilling a day. That was when I was fourteen. And getting nearly as much as a man got in some. [speaker002:] That was, that must have been a lot of money. [Ada:] Mm? [speaker002:] That was quite a lot of money then wasn't it? [Ada:] Oh it was a lot of money was. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] Well when I left there, and joined the army, I was getting twenty seven shillings a week. I used to give my mother the lot, she used to give me a shilling back. And if I had anything left at Monday, she used to borrow it, forget to give it me back and [LAUGHTER] []. I could always ask me mother if I wanted anything. [speaker002:] Mm. How much was your a father earning at this time? [Ada:] Oh about seven and six a shift. [speaker002:] So I mean [Ada:] That was top price. [speaker002:] Before you started work were the family fairly poorly off then? [Ada:] Well I was selling papers when I was ten years old ten years old. In Nottingham. And we used to be selling them at midnight. Well after so long, they brought the brought those passes out for all news boys to have them. Well when i I had that used to cost sixpence, but you'd got to be properly dressed afore you went I tell you. That's how I got that corduroy suit. Trousers, coat, shoes and stockings. [LAUGHTER]. When I when I when I finished from papers and er started w other I went into in a into er 's bottle washing. [speaker002:] Was this while you were still at school? [Ada:] That was er that while we was still at school. Used to go and feed the pigs. [LAUGHTER] Bottle washing and bottling, helping with the bottling. Now they erm emigrated to Australia. And Jack took over. He come from the he was in the post office at er top of top side of Ave just top side Avenue. Well he had it. I didn't like the was. Mind you in between that I'd been working on the fa farm farm. and tater picking. We used to get a shilling a day for that. [speaker002:] And how often how much work could you get on a farm then? [Ada:] Eh? [speaker002:] How much work would you get on the farm? How many days a week? [Ada:] Well I used to go about everyday. Mind you you went early in the morning and come home late in the afternoon. Some of the farmers were working till nearly midnight when it was harvest time you know. [speaker002:] Would this be still while you were at school? [Ada:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Would you be wagging the day off school then? [Ada:] Well when I was thirteen I supposed to be having b bad trouble and I went to doctor's and instead of knocking off school at waiting till I was fourteen, I'd finished at thirteen. I didn't bother going to school again, I just didn't. And I'd been to top standard as it was then it was standard seven, and as the er you know now they let when the when they've somebody in so long they let them walk about and come home and all so That time of day you got to you'd got to pass examins and exams and such like as that. And er of course as I tell you, I finished when I was thirteen years old and I was on this er bottle washing stunt and o one chap as lived next door to us, back at er at Road he got me his this job on the farm. I went er Turnip singling and then er one day they got to go hay making and of course I cou I had naught naught to do then. But I walked in one day and he says, You'd ge better bugger off home, he says,. [LAUGHTER]. That was one form finished. Next day I started another form they were doing bird scaring, you know, scaring the birds on the fields. That was all round Squire 's place at. I'd been in and the east fields at. You used to get a bob a day for that. What did I tell you, I'd have finished off, bottle washing then then I got this when I was fourteen I walked to and got there. Well the first job they had there was clip I was on cl down below on in the pits. There were no training you needed for this that and the other, you went down. And the the they give me as light a job as they can you know. They used to have a clipped get the clips to hang them on the wagon, another bloke took clip off. Well the clip is about like that see, two sheets like that with a hoo hoop there and a handle here. The handle is up when you hold it and you hook the hoop, you hang it on bottom of the wagon. Underneath the clip it's like a that fitted on the. Well when he'd cl er hooked it on the wagon, he puts that clip on, and he press down that arrow. That grips the rope, takes the wagon along in the one at a time. [cough] When I'd been there so long, next thing was clipping on. That was taking the clips off and clipping the wagons on. Stop so long in the pit bottom like that that is. [speaker002:] Mm. How were the clips transported? Were they did pit ponies pull the pull the wagons? [Ada:] No. They those wagons were sent up and then the wago the pit ponies at the far e far end of the pit. You see that were end of the The rope was what we call a endless loop. It used to run round, right around and same as your escalators do now. It works a way round see. They take the empties to the end and bring the full ones this road. And you get so much time taking the strips one running them down. And I got the job of going up Then they sent me up knocking th knocking the wagons off. And putting coals on at the far end. [speaker002:] What did you have to do for this job? What what did you do for this job? What did you do did did you say? [Ada:] Well after after after doing the clipping wagons on, I went the other end er cl er knocking clips off. Well as I told you at you used to clip them that damn short and we when I was knocking them off, I had to keep dodging down, let the wag and keep knock clips off and chuck the one side and then the wagons came down They went down the hill like that, and then up here there was a hook line to stop them. As that com they c them coming like the they did, you'd no time to. Course two deputies sat up at er back end at that end there. of course and I back. Mind you I'd I'd been running er ru running the tail route, that's another route as you meet on er goes onto a gate on the left hand side where you got wagons about eight wagons, put it put them back, fasten this rope at the back. And the line they're running down like that. They're going they're going some too I tell you you'd got to keep your head down. used to take them down, run them in one gate, and next day you go a bit further on. Alright after you you perhaps took wagons down and put into that place where you and find the old ones in that room where your wagons are you see. And that's how it worked. like er a motor e electric motor, that wagon up. And some in tail room. That's instead of er clipping them on, they used to b instead of clipping them on the back you used to rope at front and one at back see. And it's drawing the wagon you've got control right the way through. Well with the others, it used to have to brake, if it were going too fast, you had to brake up a bit. Put the brakes on. [cough] When you get too much when you'd been er a little bit longer, you'd perhaps go ganging. That with the ponies. And we used to have a box lamp. [cough] And that was fi filled with with. I don't mind telling you you used to get some gl glasses broke. Mind you in those pits in in it was a safe pit. You know we we had we had the candle lights or these box lamps. And we kept of course they carried er safety lamp to test for g er for any gas at all. [cough] After after that after he this deputy had clouted me and I clouted back at him, and they put me er suspe suspending me for a for weeks you see the mana er the manager, I says, I'm not I'm not stopping. So I went and left I got a job at which that was one of 's. [speaker002:] Whereabouts was? [Ada:] Why it lay down er just down the road as you turned down to it used to be across the fields. Well it's a place you couldn't it was practically ste stopped in the fields. Of course dad worked at the other pit, that was where he lived. It was er what they called a tunnel pit. A a we had to walk down, but he used to when he was younger he used to break break the ice up formed in, before they could run down. And when I when we went to, I was I was running a four lad for another fellow. We used to one at a time. And that pla that pit got flooded out. [speaker002:] Mm. Running a four lad? What what did you what did you have to do? [Ada:] Mm? [speaker002:] Being a four lad what did you have to do? What was your job as a four lad? [Ada:] Just opening doors and let getting in the front letting it come by with th h ho horse and that see. [speaker002:] So it was transporting coal in and out of the pit? It was transporting the wagons? [Ada:] No transporting it on to the main road so they can took took it to the pit bot. They didn't have a endless loop cos I don't think they'd keep one going. It was always got too much water to deal with. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] A lot of the men, had come from this pit where dad worked. So as soon as er I walked they they said, Eh up. That was what they used to call me dad. They knew cos these were the chaps that used to live at. And they were working at this Pit. It's just afore you get to. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ada:] Between er and. But nearer. Well when we when we got flooded out, I went and saw the man the manager at at. And er he told me I could start and if I could relieved from the other pit, so I went and saw the under-manager at, and I says, Aye, he says, you can go. So I started at. Er the the boss the manager his name was Bob. He had he short tongued or something he was very [LAUGHTER] []. He was er you know, he used to stammer a lot. I we had a under-manager come, he come from somewhere down Staffordshire way and y you you've talked about Tweedledum and Tweedledee, they used to call him Biffy he was just like like one of them. Well at I worked I worked on then until I was se seventeen. [speaker002:] What job did you do at? [Ada:] Er ganging an and that. Gan er ganging taking coal from you know,fr taking wagons from the main room, going into stalls different stalls. [speaker002:] Now what what sort of hours would you work? What sort of hours would you work at? [Ada:] Eight hour a day. Started at seven, stop at three.... And of course for quite a while we were from. Aye till I were till I was about fifteen and we we went to live at. Well everything it's the D H Lawrence about now. But er it were ne we ne we never thought of him,. time. It's all round the buildings as it was then, you know houses all ba all built, all just in see where me mother lives, it was like there were three bedrooms and erm and a back room and a front room, and a basement room, so that you could. You went from Street, if you went downstairs and come out the back road and cut across the square you were in Street. [speaker002:] How how many were there in the family at the time? How many people lived in the house? [Ada:] It were me, me dad, me dad and mother, me I'd got two I'd got er one brother and two sisters. At the fir that was the first though. That's before I went in the army. While I was here that's what just what happened, I joined that army when I was seventeen and three month old. Of course you you had to tell them eighteen. And er me and another fellow from we went to joined up there. We we got this cheap and we had to catch a tai train next day at nine o'clock, going to Newcastle. Into the into the No into Northumberland Northumberland Barracks. one were the one was for the artillery and one was for the infantry. [speaker002:] And which were you in? [Ada:] We were in the artillery. [speaker002:] This is in nineteen fifteen is it? [Ada:] Yes. Well I tell you rough, the food was rough, I was never lucky enough to get into into any billet same as some of them got. I was in barracks each time. We came from Newcastle to Northamptonshire. And it was going in the farm there. best butter and pi tins of pineapple you'd be surprised. Well after we had a good time there for so long then there was transferred down to Aldershot. Then you end u then you was you were really in the army. You had to run when we got there we hadn't got any equipment you know, so we used to get out at night, if you hadn't got your ga bandolier on you got pulled up, the red caps pulled you up, wanted to know what was the matter with you. Of course we'd got good excuse. But if you if you hadn't got properly dressed, you couldn't go out. Well of course from there, they took us down to Southampton. had about half a day about there, waiting for boat to take us across to France. And I'd er went to er we went to You can get you used to get apples. You know everything was just the same as it is here. We went through there. Into er into some other places and owt, and had about I had about about two months. Then they'd they'd bunged us in the train and sent us down to Marseilles. So it was supposed to be going into. We're stopped in Marseilles for about a month. Had a good time there. And then of course onto the boat. A a And what I I might tell you, I've never been sea sick only once, and that was after I think eating pork pies. Well I went all the way through went through to itself. Just before get L Lord Kinl Kitchener got torpedoed. We was in in er the end part of n about end of November in nineteen fifteen. So Georgie had his eighteenth birthday in. Well we were building roads up. When we went there there was only two roads. And we had to go in N R E fe fatigues. Making these roads. It were like liquid mud, poor old us as when you'd finished at nighttime you had all that to clean up. And of course the harness was what they call a harness, you know your buckles used to that over that and they were on. We had to keep that clean suppo And they were n you you was working about six days out of seven, I got one or two days extra for not having clean harness I could you hadn't got time to do it. Anyway, we and of course we gets up the line at the and then I got a touch of some sunstroke. I took I went to the doctor's and he gave me medicinal duty. I was number nines for you. My officer says, You lie down there, he says, till you're all right. I said then I said, Never go into a doctor something wrong. I said, Next time I go to see a doctor. As it hap as it happened they had to do two. I was taken into hospital and the er with er malaria and bronchitis. With one doctor, one nurse made me one of the doctors told me to get up. So I got up, but I was that s weak I had to sit down again and er the n the nurse that come in she said, You stop there till doctor comes. He come the next day and he took bled blood tests you've got paratyphoid, into another room. Into another shed. I used to sit another of these tent line. See them carrying them out with the Union Jack. I thought, Well I'm not going like that so the sis the sister she was Scotch the. The one thing she said, Sonny boy, she says, we're you've got one sure you're going back home to blighty. Well sent off wi after I'd been about beginning to be co you know, could e eat something, I had cups of tea, with a egg beat up that's what I used to get when you got typhoid. Well when we come when we co put on the boat they stop and drop me off up Malta. I had about a fortnight there. That was stretcher. Well I'd one come from Malta to England again, in nineteen sixteen and went on an old boat, they called it the Gurkha. And we er used to come through the Bay of Biscay at that time of the day. And that boat was rocking like this. and we'd got a little old fellow with us, you know, well built very not very big but broad as what he was long. And we said to him, Sit on stand on there, me and another fellow we were only two of us who wasn't sea sick. Me and anot another fellow. Eh, he says, she's not rocking, he said, When you see them lifeboats, he says, you know she's knocking them down. nearly did do. Anyway we landed in Southampton. The er Britannic that was one of the biggest boats at that time of the day, they're using as a hospital ship. It passed us at Gibraltar. And we got into M into Southampton when she was loading up again. By God it you've seen some ships you when you see them, they're something to look at. Well I had another I was in the er I got some much leave you know, then we had to come back to er at back of the er where it er. And when you used to go and on the on an another course driving. You know riding. Cos I was driver at at the time. And er there there was a major who'd only got one eye. He he had us all lined up after we'd been riding round and he started enquiring how long we'd been out of hospital. He said, How long you been out, I says, three month. down there he said, Don't come up again till out been out six month. Well I was so long in in the barracks, they packed me into garrison. And sent me down to down to er down to what's the name of the place now? I went into Hampshire round that way. And then I got another when it come to nineteen eighteen we got bombed out again. In March. But that there. [speaker002:] Did you see much action then? [Ada:] Mm? [speaker002:] Did you did you fight at that time then? Did you fight this time? [Ada:] No I was only garrison artillery on guns. Mind you we used to fire guns, I saw Cathedral knocked down, by Gerry. I've seen we'd been firing just observa observation beams they were sixty pounder guns. guns too. We were firing this damn thing, then they started banging us some,. From there they brought us back into back of the citadel. That was just before we started to be And we I finished up and me twenty first birthday in a place called and that was in Belgium but in between. And I couldn't buy a packet of Woodbines cos they could no shops, nothing. Couldn't get nothing. They left us behind and all the lots gone forward then, following Gerry into Germany. Well we stopped and we'd been there about a week, and all men that'd worked in the pits, they were fetching them. Mind you I was I was still on three years in in colours and and then I got nine years reserve to do after that. Anyway after about a week, all men as been worked in the pits, By the way I'd been down I'd been to the. Wi with the with the gas. You know, pick one up and he'd collared thus and taken me. I was down there er week before armistice was signed. I never sent up. And er then we come down down. Come through and that way on. That was in Christmas time. Just after me holi after me birthday. Anyway that's what that was the time when I was sea sick, when we come across the channel. [speaker002:] When [Ada:] We'd been drinking vin blanc and supping pork pies and and when we sat on the boat, sailor says, You'll not there long, you know, we sat on the bow er on the from of the boat. And he see you there, he said, You'll not be there long. We'd just come out of the harbour at Boulogne and a wave come. and we swallowed it. I'd been so good sea sick. Cos it just come up you know, and fetch the top. I didn't even same as they say going green or anything like that. And er I landed in er I landed in Eastwood in January in New Year. [speaker002:] Which year was this? What year was this? [Ada:] Nineteen eighteen. Er up to nine and in nineteen eighteen the end of nine the end of nineteen eighteen th it was. Well I tell I started back in in. I said to me mother when we start, Go to work Monday, holiday Tuesday, go to work Wednesday and holid and holiday Thursday and then Friday. I did. I went to work Monday and I couldn't get out come downstairs for the week I was that stiff. But the promises with work that we had when we went in the army, you j you'd be looked after We got the worst damn place anybody could. I had to walk three mile to work, Doubled up when you got so far down. You was boiling with sweat before you started work. [speaker002:] Was this three miles inside the pit? [Ada:] Underground. [speaker002:] Yeah. From so from the pit head down to the face? [Ada:] From from the from the pit bottom underground it was three mile to walk. And it were about that height. Now up about five or si about five foot up in height. You had to bend down when you's walking down. [speaker002:] Would this be the top hard seam? You'd be working the top hard seam would you? [Ada:] No this was. It was it was erm main to er to London. It was household coal you know, real good coal. top the hard coal was next shaft to what ours was. We the both together you could g you could go down either shaft, but you had three doors to come through from one pit to the other. And it we tried to open all three together sometimes you know. It used to cause a hell of a me a hell of a draft.... Well... I worked there... and then er... quite a bit I had to w they had me working on the main road. I u I went in one there was like a junction as come from Pit into. The towards th pit bottom like. I had to run them coals out and I tell you the they come over the top of and of course 's coming up here, 's coming down here and did meet there. And the office was just here. Of course the boss' d bosses were always there and he was a a right a right fellow you know, he was he he got blacklisted at, they couldn't stand him. one of them sort. He'd swear at you. And if you swore back at him, it was alright. He used to forget it. [speaker002:] Do you remember his name? [Ada:] Scott. He finished up at at at but he was the under-manager at. And that was er under John John was the manager and er... [cough]... I tell you Scott come and he started swearing at me and I says, I didn't m ask you for your bloody job, so next er next morning when they goes, he they had they had me walking the rope. I had to see as the wagons in the coals as it shifting, not falling off you see. When you were walking the rope, there's so many of you walki you walk so far t till you meet another fellow,h he goes on and you come back. And they do that all day long. S see that everything's going backwards and forwards. This particular day he comes round to me, he says, Take this lamp, he said, Bugger off down there, he says, and thou can the coal I'm coming. So I do and do his lamp job. It's just that that just how I I had to be. See if you if things weren't well he'd swear at you. Well if it wasn't your fault you'd swear back, which I did.... In fact before when I was tha when I was young I was I met th I were on night shift meself ganging. And the manager the un the the deputy met me he says, And I were just going down main road at nighttime as me dad were coming up. And this this deputy says, Oh alright George. I says, Aye, I says, Yes but look what th that look at this bloody thing. And that's as what I swore. You could lift his forelock up like that and you'd see his brain working. And me dad was walking that way. And he heard me. I didn't know till the next we er till the weekend and he made me know as I'd swore. He could swear but I hadn't got to do. Not and let him hear it. Of course he finished up in the pit w in with his eyesight. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right Mr erm... Have you always lived in Nottingham? [speaker002:] Well I live in in live in Nottinghamshire, born and bred at a place called which is it's about er twenty four miles North of Nottingham. A small mining town. Brought up well as I was actually born in the village and that's where I've come home to roost when I left the army. [speaker003:] So you when did you join the army? [speaker002:] Nineteen er s nineteen seventy two. I came out in nineteen eighty four. [speaker003:] And th did you join Group Four then? [speaker002:] Yes yes I was I had a month's terminal leave er I'd er I'd heard that there was a job going, er phoned them up on the on the Monday, had an interview Tuesday, started the Friday. [speaker003:] So were you a sergeant when you started? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah everybody starts off as a sergeant. And er you do you do probation for three months in in which time you're vetted thoroughly. And if your if your vetting doesn't come up to scratch, then you can be terminated, it's in your contract. And er I've been with them ever since, just come up to two year period. I've enjoyed it quite a lot. Seen a a lot of other things I wouldn't have seen if I'd have been working down a pit or behind a shop counter or something. Met a lot of er different people. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Is that the sort of thing most people? [speaker002:] Well at the moment with the the mining industry as it is, unless you've got had you've got or had a relative working at the pit, the local, you haven't got the s chance of in. When I left school er if you went to the pit, it was the last of the last jobs. But now to get into the pit it's one of the jobs to go to. I would say [breath] ninety five percent of people in the village are employed at the local colliery. [speaker003:] Mm. Erm er. Erm what was actually you brief when you move onto the flats. [speaker002:] Well our main brief was that we was to try and minimize and control the vandalism, or any property belonging to the county council. Er to make sure none of the empty flats was broke into, and items removed such as copper tanks, electrical fittings. To reassure the remaining tenants who were left behind, or moving out er Mm. Tt. What's the word? Well try and look after flats for the council. As. Erm make sure there was no vandalism done. But we found out that most of the vandalism was done in the daytime when we were away. [LAUGHTER] And er reassure reassure the tenants that that that are left behind. [speaker003:] So when did you actually move on to the flats? [speaker002:] We started the contract in April of last year. I think it's the around about the first or the second of April. Er so that's over a year now. About what? Fourteen month fifteen month? Mm. [speaker003:] So what's you what are what are your actual powers? [speaker002:] Well we've got no s we've got no more powers than what a a normal person civilian has got. Er our main thing is, if we see something happ happening which we justifies erm the police being called, then we will call the police. But if we see an office that's being committed by y somebody breaking into an empty flat, or we actually see somebody breaking into a occupied flat, then as a as a citizen, you can enforce a citizen's arrest.. We've never arrested anybody yet, I think erm the uniform does the job. And it deters more people than u use actually having to er resort to different means. But erm the police react very quickly. If we say, There's somebody suspicious knocking about the flats, or, There's a person on such a walk doing something we think's a little bit er mysterious, then they'll sen they'll send somebody round as quickly as they can. [speaker003:] So you've got quite a good relationship [speaker002:] Oh we've got a fantastic relationship with the police. Because also we can act as eyes for them as well. Er I don't know but I would i I would reckon the crime rate since we've been on the flats, even though the the flats are emptying out,h h has dropped er dramatically. Erm as you know yourself you walk round the flats now, it's dead. There's hardly anybody about but if you was here a year ago, this was a little island on it's own little concrete island on it's own. And there was activity twenty four hours a day. You could go out to the walkways, you could talk to somebody twenty four hours a day. If you was here. [speaker003:] So you think the community's certainly gone down since you? [speaker002:] In number-wise? [speaker003:] Well in the way people act. [speaker002:] Well you i it took a a while for us to be accepted about six month I would say six month. Because when they first saw us we was eve everything from the the D H S, to the police, to the probation office. Anything that could could check up on people and ru that's what we was called. Gradually the people realized that we was here to look after the flats. And we weren't gonna you know, bust the door down at six o'clock in the morning and do a drugs raid. Or other illicit things that's going on. And they accept us for what we are and we've got a good erm relationship with the the people w who are left in er the flat complex. [speaker003:] Mhm. Er you said about breaking into them and things like that, erm er a lot of tenants we've spoken to er seem to be er they seem to thing there's a lot of flats. Er do you do you get a lot of breaking into flats? [speaker002:] when we come we come on duty. Approximately we a we start on at six o'clock. By which time the tenants have come home from work or they've been out for a few hours, say they've been out from twelve till six. And they come home, they find that the the flat's been broke into, and that's the first thing we know about it. Er we've had one or one or two erm break-ins while during the night. But on such a large complex like this, we can't be everywhere at the same time. And er the the problem is we get round who who do you know who lives in what flat. Erm if we see you know, if we see somebody walking down a walkway, and he's got a stereo in his arm, arms should I say, and he puts it into a car then obviously it a it arouses our suspicion, we'll take a quick note of the car's registration number, and we'll pass the relevant information through to Police Station. It's up you know and they'll act on that. Erm we had one morning, one of our sergeants saw what he thought was a break-in. Was in in the. We got on on to the phone to Road Police Station, and within possibly two, three minutes, there was four, five police officers round there. And it turned out chap had been locked out and he forced one of his windows himself to get in. But they they surrounded the flat cos they thought that it was a bur a burglary was in process. So er we achieved something there, even if it [LAUGHTER] you know it it put the frighteners up the chap, police looking out the windows and you know, saw our reaction when the police turn up, it makes them think again. [speaker003:] Erm what actually happens if someone comes up to you in the night and says, My house has been burgled. What do you do? [speaker002:] Well first thing we do is we'll if I've got two two sergeants at the flats, I tell the occupant to go back to the flat, and wait for the two s two sergeants turning up. They'll go back to the The two sergeants' ll turn up. They'll go in with the with the occupant, at the same time we'll inform Road Police Station. And then erm it's up to Road Police Station to deal with it. If we find a flat that's been broke into. And it's an occupied flat, then we will not enter it or we will not enter it until we've had erm till Road Police Station's been informed, and then we'll work on their advice. And then they'll say, Right we'll have a bobby in there in ten minutes, or, We can't get anybody there till such and such, so what we will do is we will secure a door, until somebody can come and have a look at it. Erm if a window's been smashed, then we'll we'll get the window boarded up to secure the flat the best possible way. [speaker003:] You do all that yourself do you? [speaker002:] No we we we've got er a contact phone number and er a contractor comes in and boards it up. Or secures the door. If we can't put a clamp on it, then we we can't do a clamp. Say the doorframe's been busted, then er we've got authority to contact the board the people who board it up. And then they'll they'll get the flat secure. [speaker003:] Now in what what other things go on in the flats that you get involved with? [speaker002:] Er what other things go on in the flats? Fires. Erm unknown people have got their little things about setting chutes on fire, the rubbish chutes. What they normally do is they get some paper, they light it, they'll drop it, and it falls straight into the rubbish chute underneath. appropriate action. Er... nine out of ten you can see it. Cos there's smoke. Well I mean first of all you'll smell it. you find out where it is, and you inform base which is here, that there's a fire, say in one of the chutes, and er the fire brigade will be informed. And the fire brigade'll turn up and deal with it. And we put in a report to the county council in the morning saying there was a fire. Erm we've had a couple of flat fires. There again er there was smoke seen coming out of a bedroom, so we first of all informed base again, that there's a fire, in a flat, secondly we did was break down the door. Cos we took it that there was somebody probably take it that there's somebody inside the flat. Until either the the emergency services turn up and say there's nobody in the flat. Or that the occupant turns up himself and says there's nobody in the flat. Er and this this case the there was a fire in a flat, the chap had gone out to work, we didn't know he'd gone out to work, so we broke First of all we informed the fire brigade was on the way, we broke down the door, quick look in the flat, best possible way we could look, and the fire brigade turned up and dealt with the flat. We secured the door.. Erm we've had one attempted well one arson attack in the the period which we've been on the flats. Er disagreement between er two partners er one partner set fire to another partner's flat, by smashing a window, setting alight the curtains. We were I was I was patrolling at the time, with me partner. We heard the glass being broken. So we we moved towards the sound of the glass, and there's there's two people in the the garden, so we went down to have a look at them. As we as I approached them, I saw flames coming from the the curtains. And the two people in the garden started to walk away. So rather than cause er an incident there and then, I informed my partner to follow them back to wherever they went, which time I got on the radio back to control, that we required the police and the fire brigade. Er but he followed them all the way back to a flat on th on the on the complex. The police came and dealt with them and the arrest was made. So therefore, in my mind, we saved probably forty, fifty family lives that night. And er it was a good night's work. The fire brigade eventually turned up, because the police had cancelled they tu turned them ou turned them out again. And and things settled nice and quietly and all the blue lights come flying down here, and so we had to they was about to chop down this blokes door and we said, Whoa whoa whoa. Said, The fire's out mate. And we showed them where the fire was, they checked that out. Because er under no c circumstances if we have a fire, do we say the f we put the fire out out ourselves. Even if we've had a fire and if it's burnt itself out then we will we will call the fire service to make sure it is out. And they're the specialists we're not. [speaker003:] Erm do you have much trouble with erm squatters and vagrants and. [speaker002:] When we first moved in, April last year, it was a bit bit cold. Problem with the stairwells is that they're heated. The heating pipes coming through for the the central heating and the hot water. We had one or two, one or two vagrants knocking about, and we just asked them to move on, and they moved on. We've had one or two juveniles that's run away from home sleeping in the in the outhouses. There again, rather than wake them up, and the they do a runner, we get on to the phone, tell the police that there's a a juvenile or what looks like to be a juvenile, sleeping in in part of the flats but where it's a a stairwell, an ou outhouse, erm even under the stairs, then they'll come along and check it out. Nine out of ten it's a runaway. And they'll just, they'll eit you know, just hand it over to the police and that's as far as we'll go. [speaker003:] Mm. Erm erm when you're patrolling the flats erm have you ever come erm into any sort of physical danger yourself? You and your your patrol? [speaker002:] No but erm I've had one or two people swear up to us. Er I had or trying to provoke us, and erm what our lads have been informed is rather than take a situation on like that, it's better just to turn around and walk away. If they call you names or they spit at you, or or whatever, it's better to walk away and live another day than to get your head kicked in and end up in hospital. Erm y you get a lot of well we did get a lot of verbal abuse from the young the youngsters. But there again you you just let it go in one ear and out the other ear. That's why you've got to have somebody who's a mature natured person, for this for this k kind of job. You know probably if you got a younger person, he probably would have been after him, square up to him, and erm. Cos if you ever squared up to one of these or anybody in the flats, people'd just come out of the out of the woodwork. And as far as as er physical threats, what, somebody actually being hit? No. [speaker003:] I mean you read you read a lot in the press erm about people being mugged on the flats and er break-ins and all this sort of thing. Are they actually as bad as the press makes out, the flats? [speaker002:] Well before we came on the flats I would imagine they was. But now we're on the flats, no. There again, how long does it take to mug a person? Ten, fifteen seconds. And you can do a lot in fifteen seconds, you could murder somebody in fifteen seconds. Erm nobody's gonna mug a person if they see us coming, or if they see a bobby coming. Nine out of ten they'll wait until we've gone passed, or even the police have gone passed, before they'll commit an offence. But since we've been on the flats, there's probably been half a dozen muggings. Some in the daytimes, some at night. But there again, it's people walking through the flats, who don't live on the flats, that get mugged. Erm or people attending the blues, walking from one end to the other. You know people who's coming in from o the outside to come on to the flats, they're the people at risk. Erm but er we've had one or two people come to us, and report that they've been mugged, there again we get straight on the phone to the police. And let them them deal with it. We we'll do the reporting and that's that's as far as we'll go. But if we there again if we see somebody that's being mugged, and we think that we can assist, or we can deal with it, then we will, you have to take every situation as it comes. Y erm it's like you don't go running up to something if you're gonna come worse off. If there's half a dozen of them and there's two of you, and there's one person being mugged, erm then it's better to to stand on and watch, and report b back to the base here, who can inform the police, who can get the necessary assistance out to deal with it. And er that's what we do. [speaker003:] Erm [cough] how do you think the people in the flats erm look at er you patrolling them? [speaker002:] Well I think they're helping us erm possibly if this system had been started a few years ago, then possibly flats complex, wouldn't have got the bad reputation it has today. Because I go home and I people say, Oh where are you working? I will say, Oh I'm doing a job at flats. And, Oh! flats like then. as if you walk round with a shotgun armoured tank. And I say, No it's a quite pleasant place to work. And they say, Ah come off it, we've heard about it, we've read it in the papers. one small aspect in the paper of, can into a page a full page. But whereas say something that happens say Well say take for example where I live in. Er somebody being attacked there might make a paragraph. It's it's it's er quietened down, and people do accept us. And people have stopped us and have said, If this i if you'd have been on on the flats, say six, ten years ago, erm it wouldn't have got the reputation it has now. Because the senior members on the flats that have been living here since it was put up, when they came to live on complex, they reckoned it was the place to come and live. And they was proud to come and live in it. But er things have deteriorated. Till we've got the situation we've got now. [speaker003:] Do you erm have you got to know people a bit on the flats? [speaker002:] We we we know one or two people erm more or less by face, not by name. Er there was quite a few people moved out now. There was a a an old lady down we talked to, she's out most nights. There's one or two people knocking around that'll talk to you. Erm we more or less know the young the young thug element as such. Er and they seem to stay well clear of us when they see us walking round. Yes we know quite a few. In those areas. [speaker003:] you said you got quite a good rapport. [speaker002:] Well I think we have now. Yes. Er without having a good relationship with the people in the flats, er if I mean some people if they say see something going off, they'll turn their you know, turn their back and they don't want to know. There again, on the other hand, if some one or two other people see something going off, they'll come and tell us. As I've said before, we can't be all over the flats at the same time. So we rely on, to a certain degree, on a bit of help from the tenants. [speaker003:] Now, how do you patrol the flats? Erm do you go out in teams? [speaker002:] Well at the moment we've just started a new patrol programme and er we two two sergeants wal patrolling the the walkways. And I had one sergeant downstairs patrolling the er street level. Er... The sergeant downstairs, if he sees any trouble or he finds something that's going off or bumps into something, then he can radio back into base again. And then we can take appropriate action from there. Erm the two lads on the flats, there's two of them together, so that anything that they they meet or come up against, they can handle themselves. But in our time, it's very quiet now so we've we've moved into a different routine again, where I have two two sergeants out at one time, changing over er frequently so they don't get bored. [speaker003:] Is it is there not that much to do now in the flats? [speaker002:] Well yeah there there's a there's a lot to do, erm with half the flats being empty and Or say two thirds of the flats being empty. Erm you've got quite a few people walking through. Erm these people are possibly the element we don't want on the flats. Cos they're walking through the area and they'll if they've had a few pints, Let's go down Oh we'll walk through Flats and we'll smash one or two lights up, smash one or two windows. Erm I wouldn't say it's it's gone quiet at night, we've got to be more aware now anyway. Than what we had we was doing last year. As I said last year, there were quite a few people out on the walkways, so it was very rarely you got anybody walking through. Now two thirds of the residents have gone, there's a lot of walkways open, there's a lot of windows there to smash, there's a lot of you know, try setting fire setting fire. So we've got to be more aware during the like what we call the silent hours. [speaker003:] Erm just really. Erm d now the flats are quieter, do you find there are as many blues on the flats? [speaker002:] Well erm At the moment we've got one one blues on. Erm and that is not half as what it was last year. But then again, we can say that we've had a quiet week Saturday and Sunday, or from Friday till through till Monday morning, it can be packed out with people just visiting the blues. [speaker003:] Do they do they seem to create much trouble, these blues? [speaker002:] Yeah. Er as I said before, if we get some verbal abuse from people going to the blues, then we know that it was outsiders coming in. they just accept us for what we are, they know that we're not gonna upset their lifestyle, we're not gonna start raiding their place at six in the morning. They accept us for what we are, and that's it. [speaker003:] Mm. So you've got no powers to go sort of talk about their noise,? [speaker002:] No. If somebody comes and reports to us that erm that the music's loud, all we'll do is refer them to Road Police Station. And let them do. [speaker003:] Erm do you have erm much to do with the housing people? That are on the flats. [speaker002:] Yeah we've got the daily You mean the council staff? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah we've got the daily contact each morning with one of the, one of the er council employees, they'll come up approximately between eight and nine, and we'll hand over any incidents reports that have been made during the night. And we'll er inform them of erm the state of the flats during the night, whether it was quiet busy, erm anything we've seen knocking about, erm and things in general. [speaker003:] So does it work quite well for them? [speaker002:] Oh yes we've they are subscribing, and if we wasn't keeping a good erm a good liaison with them, then I don't think we'd be here now. [speaker003:] Erm wh wh what what's it like working on Flats, I mean, have you worked anywhere similar? [speaker002:] No I haven't worked anywhere similar, in in this employment. Er but working on Flats, taken to the job. Erm when I came on to the flats I came with an open mind and I was gonna you know take things as I as I met them. Erm we treat everybody the same, we look after everybody as I say, the best we can. Erm and it's just a normal job. Yes t to a certain extent, I expect. Erm there's nothing hard about it, there's nothing easy about it. Erm the best thing about this job is, you don't know what's round the corner. As I say one day it might be quiet, and the next day, something might happen. Erm since we've we've worked the flats I think, the the lads who've worked up here have dealt with a a very broad erm a very broad aspect of incidence. And th they will they will have dealt with more incidents up here than I would imagine any other erm place of employment that they'll go to. And it probably beds them in slightly to go off to somewhere else. [speaker003:] Is there anything you haven't worked with on the flats yet? [speaker002:] Well we haven't had a murder, and we haven't ha a rape. And er erm that's about it I think. [LAUGHTER] But er who knows we're probably here for another two years, we might find a dead body somewhere. Erm it's a bit frightening when you if you find somebody dossing down somewhere. You can see a body and like, Oh what's that? and then you you know, you're a little bit er relieved when it moves. [LAUGHTER]. Or it stands up or you know you you go and put it in the cupboard, and all of a sudden there's a there's a there's a face looking at you, you know. Yeah, you're hoping Your heart er beats rising. [speaker003:] I think personally erm I mean yo would you like to live on the flats? [speaker002:] No there's no gardens. Of such. [LAUGHTER] Erm the tenants are not allowed to keep animals. But er as you know looking round the flats, they do. Erm and I... But there again, if it was a controlled access to the flats, and people wasn't allowed to wander through the flats. Er probably yes. Erm but then again, if anybody's got any kiddies, which I have, it's not it's not a Well I don't reckon it it is a place to bring children up in. Erm if there was probably me and me wife on me own, and it was a co controlled access, and there weren't people walking through, probably come and live here. [speaker003:] What do you mean by controlled access? [speaker002:] Well er if take it as if threw a b a fence all the way round the the flats. Well that this starts off by keeping the outsiders out. They do most of the damage, knocking on doors, daub writing all over the place. So what I mean by controlled access is nobody comes on i within to this flat complex, without er the se the security team knowing. So say for example you was a tradesman. And you was say I'm going to come to the exit point, I'm going to say come in here. And unless has told us that you're coming, then you don't get on the flats. That's one way to keep traders out. I mean how many times has somebody knocked on your door, Oh I'm Joe Bloggs I've come to sell dusters? You know,. And people don't want it. Er it's like kids or people walking through from Road to Road. They'll ni they'll nip through the flats. They'll deposit their rubbish, you know. If they've had a few beers, they m they may leave something else behind. People don't want it. Erm and that's what I mean by access. Controlled access. Erm aren't complexes, in my view in my view only, in complexes of this size, it should be a controlled access. And er you just don't get bad people wandering round the flats. The only people you get on the flats, is the people who live on the flats, and the people who's been invited into the flats. Erm and that's that's my view. [break in recording] And that's right down here. [speaker003:] Wh what what's this? And this is all sealed up as well is it? [speaker002:] Yeah it's all sealed up. All these doors. We used to have a a dosser here. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Frightened the living daylights out of him when I opened the cupboard. [speaker003:] You say you don't get any trouble on [speaker002:] No no. See it's all nailed up now. I opened it one morning, there was somebody looking at me. [speaker003:] You were saying about blues at er night. Is that weekends is it? [speaker002:] Er you get what what you call a small blues during the week, but Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, you can expect er large blues. [speaker003:] Is that on the flats or is it the. [speaker002:] Well you got one on the, which has got nothing to do with us. Then you've got one on Walk. Let's have a look round here, check this. Yeah. So what they're doing now, is sealing the walkways off. It's a bit of a So you can't get through. It's a bit of a pain in the neck, cos we can't walk round you see. [speaker003:] the whole walk's been sealed off? [speaker002:] Yeah the whole walkway's been sealed off. [speaker003:] Which one's that, is that the? [speaker002:] It's erm d der I think. And after fourteen months up here I can still get lost. Yeah. and whereas before we could walk round in a on a circular route, Yeah that's Walk. [speaker003:] So you have to you're just doubling back on yourselves. [speaker002:] Yeah just d doubling back on ourselves.... But erm er when the W Winter comes on, the wind starts whistling round this place, it er cuts into your ears a bit. You can feel the cold. [speaker003:] You not have any any trouble with vagrants on these empties? [speaker002:] Well we've had one or two, as I say, I found a chap in number fifteen, the outhouse, I just asked him to move on. Er next night so I frightened him, I was gonna nail it up while he was inside, and he [LAUGHTER] soon come out []. [speaker003:] You've not had anybody tear the tin down and [speaker002:] No well not as far we've we've found. Er nobody tearing the tin down.. You'd you'd probably come in the daytime, and you'd find some of the tin's been ripped off a bit, you might find a find a corner's been ripped off. And then you know, when you check up on it, the following day, you probably find the council's been back in and forgot to secure it, so we've got s a nail and some nails and a hammer, and we'll er just re-secure it and let the the council know in the morning. Walk, completely empty. [speaker003:] It's all this one side of the flats isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes it's all this side, er phase er one, two and three. [speaker003:] How do you find it on the parts that are still populated, I mean the [speaker002:] Well they're more or less no different to what we're walking down here now. You might see somebody scurrying about later at night or in the morning. [speaker003:] It's not very lively? [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Creeping off to work.... It's the main problem we get to face in the daytime now, is the windows being smashed. And obviously you can er ascertain that er, when more windows get smashed, the locals are gonna start complaining to the council, that it looks a bit of an eyesore, even though it's an eyesore now, it'll be a greater eyes eyesore then. But we're not on the flats in the daytime, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So there's nothing we can do about it. [speaker003:] And most of that goes on in the daytime [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] does it? And this is Walk. [speaker002:] Walk yeah. Number six is the loos. You can walk down here, don't walk down here at nighttime if it's er if it's chock-a-block. Alright then. The lady lives over the blues must have a set of earphones somewhere. And she's got three kiddies so she moves out at nighttime. Yeah we don't erm antagonize them. If we see there's quite a few on the walkways, and if we know that they're outsiders then we'll we'll turn round and we'll walk back the other way. It's better to walk b back, and look at them for a d you know, from afar, than [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] try and push your way through. On to. [speaker003:] There's a cupboard there that's been ripped open, I mean is that just part of the vandalism that goes on? [speaker002:] Well no, knowing our it's probably the er electricity board's come along, to read the meter, somebody's put a screw in it, and they've got a crowbar and just opened it up. That's not vandalism.... [speaker003:] quite a lot of flights around. [speaker002:] Oh yes. Our biggest, biggest er threat when we first come up here, was the dog muck which was on the ground. I think we've walked past the one that's been set on fire. I dunno. You you walk round the flats, and you know, you walk round them for fourteen months, and all of a sudden you have to stop and think where you are. play area. Er round about Christmas last year, this flat down here, bottom of, they had all their present in there. Ready for the Christmas party, and some er some fiend broke in an nicked all the presents. Obviously it was an inside job, cos nobody else knew the presents were there. [speaker003:] Did they get them back? [speaker002:] No no. There was a lot of toys and that appeared on the flats all of a sudden. [speaker003:] Was that over night that? [speaker002:] In daytime, in the daytime. Anything happens on the flats, it'll happen in the daytime. Cos they know they know that we're not here. Let's have a look along, along. Come right on the ramp you see, we can look on the back of these flats. [speaker003:] Yeah. Right. What walks this? Is this [speaker002:] Er I think. [speaker003:] Have you had much vandalism on the play centre stuff that [speaker002:] No not not mu much as what you can call vandalism, you know people spraying paint on the tinned up windows and that. look down the back here, see if there's anything. The boy's club, No. Nothing to do with us. Of course we can see the back of the flats over on and er wrong on and. You've got to look at them from different angles, see if there's any smoke bellowing out from anywhere, or somebody's hanging out of a window. [speaker003:] You were saying about you had a a bomb scare once, what walk was that on? [speaker002:] That was on. [speaker003:] What actually happened there? [speaker002:] Well I don't know really. All I know is the reports which the lads filed. Er a chap... er reported to our lads that there was a suspicious, something suspicious wired up to his back door. Er they went, had a look, took the appropriate action and er phoned the police and handed it over to the police. Er which in turn the police brought the bomb disposal out. And they dealt with it. [speaker003:] It was actually a fake wasn't it. [speaker002:] Yeah it was they call erm a hoax. A hoax er improvised explosive device. if we'd kicked it, something like that. They the the leads carried out the proper procedure, what's laid down for them. And they did quite well. The police praised them. I think even when the police turned up, they hadn't got a clue what to do with it so, it was a good training training day from This leads down down onto the stairwell. Terrace down there, and Walk there. [speaker003:] Do you actually go down the stairwell? [speaker002:] Oh yeah, we go down the stairwells. Drop onto the walk level at night time. [speaker003:] You say it gets a bit busier about two o'clock. [speaker002:] Yeah we get the people going from over to the. There's a couple up here at number twenty, a deaf and dumb couple. We were walking round here about three o'clock one morning, there was water pouring all out the the seams of the concrete. Went upstairs and there was water pouring out the electrics. Tried the alarm, their alarm like, obviously they hadn't switched it on. So we had to get the bobbies down to kick the door in, and you can imagine at three o'clock in the morning, some some deaf and dumb couple, there's this big coloured bobby le leaning over and waking them up. The first thing they do is switch the bloody lights on. There was about four inches of water inside. All we heard was one scream for a bobby like [LAUGHTER] you know [], and they turned the lights on. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Had all the pipes burst? [speaker002:] Well what had happened apparently, the er ballcock inside the system had stuck. And the er overflow wasn't working properly. [speaker003:] Do you get much trouble like that with water and stuff. [speaker002:] Oh we we deal we deal with all sorts on here. Er water, lights, for any you know the light bulb goes, first thing they do they come running to us, you know, me lights are out. Well, Right love we'll inform you know we just phone up and let them know what's happened. [speaker003:] This all goes on the report in the morning. [speaker002:] Yeah it all goes on the report in the morning. Flat over on, bottom left, that's where we had the arson attack. It's all tinned up now. And as I as I told you before, we was on the main concourse, heard the glass smashed, we come down a stairwell on, come round the back, saw the two, or saw two persons in the back garden, asked them what they were doing buy which time the the curtain went up in smoke, well up in flames. I dealt with the fire while the other sergeant followed them back to. And the police come and we handed everything over to them. [speaker003:] The flat was alright then? [speaker002:] Yes well we save, we possibly saved that time, most of was was completely er occupied, so if we hadn't have seen the fire, there could have been forty lives or forty families at risk there. I think it's anyway, I keep forgetting where we are. You can imagine [speaker003:] Yeah I think that is. [speaker002:] Yeah you can s you can imagine walking round here for fourteen months, and then one w one back of one walkway looks like another walkway. [speaker003:] Have you had any trouble, I mean, I mean I don't know if you've seen erm but does to a deterrent and there's trouble with motorbikes on the walks, have you found any trouble with peo [speaker002:] Yeah you you you get one or two people with the motorbikes. All we do there again is, we'll tell them to stop, if they don't stop we'll get on the on the the phone to the polices and let them deal with it. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] We got erm no authority to [speaker001:] Hiya. [speaker002:] stop them. Alright then? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And just get the registration number,pho phone it through to the police and let them deal with it. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] down on to I think. Yeah I can see it's cos I can see name plate. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Alright. and, two out on a limb. Alright then? [speaker001:] she's gone. [speaker002:] Has she gone has she [speaker001:] Went this morning. [speaker002:] this morning. [speaker001:] Yeah you'll miss her. [speaker002:] Aye. Got nobody to talk to down here. I've got no spy in the corner. Yeah Beatrice has moved out. [speaker003:] Is this an old lady [speaker002:] Yes we got her moved out a little bit earlier. She she was a sitting. She didn't know what she was tit entitled to claim for. So when we got the council's bloke to have a word with her, went to saw he a fortnight ago, and she's moved today. Last time I seen he on Monday, she was happy as punch she was going. [speaker003:] Have you had any break-ins or anything like that recently? been very quiet. [speaker002:] It's been very quiet with break-ins. We've had one on. Let's just check... No it's been quiet on break-ins at the moment. Probably er you know people's probably got a bit of money so they don't need to break in to anybody. one on Walk. But that was a bit dubious. See there again we can come on here, and we can look down the back of. There again make sure nobody hanging out of a window or somebody doing summat daft, walking a to along top of roofs. [speaker003:] Have you ever caught anybody on the roofs. [speaker002:] Yeah we've seen one or two up there, but all we do is to tell them er to get down. If they want to to fall off that that's their problem. Er y you know especially if if if they're living in the flat, you know above. Er we've got authority to pull them off. [speaker003:] Is it you were telling me about you you you caught kids sniffing methane was it? [speaker002:] Yes that was over on walk. We passed that way back. Yeah there was about three kids three kids in a in one of these cupboards, and they were sniffing butane gas. I phoned up the bobbies, told them about it, and the bobbies the isn't a lot much they could do. They've come down and give the lads tell the lads off. But by time they come down, the lads had gone you see so. [LAUGHTER] Waste of time. [speaker003:] Obviously that had a fire risk to it as well. [speaker002:] Well it does I mean with these light being fluorescent, they give off a small charge, when the you know when the lights come on. You've only got to have the gas build up and bang. That's what happened apparently at, about a fortnight afterwards. Er couple couple of lads, sniffing butane, and somebody struck a match. [LAUGHTER] And they went bang. We went a lot quicker than what we normally walk round in. We normally take it a bit slower. I've walked down Shall we go down onto s ground floor. like this.... Right down on to Street now. St street level. between the flats and come out the other end. [speaker003:] I mean what what sort of things happen down on the ground ground level? [speaker002:] Oh you might get er an abandoned vehicle. see a vehicle that you you recognize is not off the patch, they'll they'll radio it through to to the base, to our base. Lads' ll get on phone and the bobbies' ll stick it through computer. computer. [speaker003:] Do you get many abandoned cars? [speaker002:] One or two, we used to we had one or two when we first came up here. But it's all quiet now. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] right. How long have you been living in the flats for? [speaker003:] Yeah how long is it, since you came to live in Flats, how many years ago. Remember you were telling me. [speaker002:] About fifteen. [speaker003:] About fifteen years ago. You remember that's right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So erm where had you lived before? What other place did you live before you came to to? [speaker002:] Oh dear I forget now duck. [speaker003:] I remember you telling me you came to from the Republic of Ireland. [speaker002:] I was in terraced houses. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Terraced houses. [speaker003:] was in? [speaker002:] Eh? [speaker003:] Was that when when you lived in the republic of Ireland? [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm No I haven't been in Ireland duck. over here. I've been over here since sixteen. [speaker003:] Yeah so what happened before you were sixteen up to sixteen you lived in I in the Republic.... When was it were you born were you born You were born in the Republic of Ireland. [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] You born in the Republic of Ireland? [speaker002:] Er Oh I was born in Ireland. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And you stayed in Ireland until what age, until you were? [speaker002:] Oh I was c come come for a holiday. And I'd aunties over here [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So I come over here [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and I went and then I come over tak g got jobs you know, in hotels. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And how Yeah. And but when did you get hold of your new f when you got the jobs in the hotels, was that when you first came across here? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] And how was your memories you know, from when you actually lived in Ireland, up until when you were sixteen, what are your memories of there? [speaker002:] Of you er you mean of Do you mean of over here? [speaker003:] Of there, No, before you came across, before you came across to England. When you lived in the republic of Ireland. [speaker002:] We my suggestion is they're as bad as English people now. they have took h home from England. England and Ireland is nearly whatsername, is that any good? [speaker003:] So did you t did you like it in Ireland, I mean, did did you like it when you lived in the Republic of Ireland or did Did you like living there? [speaker002:] Well we didn't get much pa pay. [speaker003:] You didn't? [speaker002:] When we come home hol holiday, [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] and then we wrote home to mam that we'd found a job, and that were it. [speaker003:] Mhm. Where did you work, whereabouts did you work? [speaker002:] At. [speaker003:] Have you lived in different parts of England? [speaker002:] Yeah. I lived in different parts duck. [speaker003:] What other p what other parts? So you've not only lived in Nottingham. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] Er how long did you live in London? Quite a while or [speaker002:] Oh quite a while love. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I was working in hotels. [speaker003:] Mhm. So how long did you [speaker002:] I married t I married to the whatsername baby. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] And did you w er when did you actually get married, how many years ago was it you got married? [speaker002:] Oh [speaker003:] How old were you w how old were you when you get married were you? [speaker002:] Twe twenty. [speaker003:] You were twenty. And how how many kids did you have? [speaker002:] Two. [speaker003:] Just two. [speaker002:] Just two b two by the men two two of them own. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er one is up er I'm no good at thinking of names. Up by that school round the corner. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] You know the one, the one that's up. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They've got good jobs. [speaker003:] Mhm. What jobs have they got? [speaker002:] Er well they're responsible for all writing. They go round to the the place where they work, er they go there to know if they've done the job properly. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And then they come back in, and they're doing all the writing. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You know what I mean? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] They're doing pen work. Good jobs good money. [speaker003:] Mhm. So do you see them often? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] Do you ma do you manage to see them often? [speaker002:] Er well I've seen me s er the son down here on Saturdays. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Bringing the children with him and [speaker003:] And where is it where does he live? [speaker002:] Not far from here. I'm trying to tell you duck.... It takes about ten minutes in the car. I forget the name duck. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It's not far. [speaker003:] What what job did your husband have? [speaker002:] Oh he was in a big er whatsername, in town. A big building. I never go into anything duck. All I know is he's got a good [speaker003:] Your husband like your husband, when your husband was living? What about your husband? [speaker002:] Oh he he had his own You mean my husband? [speaker003:] Yes before yeah before he passed away. [speaker002:] He was buying and selling. Got his own car own van and had one or two working for him. [speaker003:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker002:] And er you st see he had like this [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and every now and again he had to take off er he had to come off poorly. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And in the end it died. It was shrapnel they call it. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Took shrapnel in his arm.. God fo when he when he died, I nearly dies and all. I tried to go away.. [speaker003:] [cough] So how do you you know, you lived in the flats for fifteen years. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] How how how has it actually erm varied I mean, is the s is it the same are the flats the same as when you first moved in or have they changed? [speaker002:] No far from it duck. [speaker003:] What was it like when you first moved in? [speaker002:] When I first moved in, they were nice people. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] When I say nice people, people that well you know what's come from all the different countries, from out there. Can I I can't mention names can I? I can't mention names [speaker003:] How's it Yeah. So what was it like when you fir when you saying when you first came h here. It was you liked it didn't you, you liked it here when you first came. [speaker002:] Yeah they were all nice people. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They never took causing bothers and all s that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] So wh what was it In what way do you know, I mean is it the About the flats themselves, I mean are they are they the same, or have they gone What about the flats are they are they any different to w when you first came here? [speaker002:] You mean you mean about repairs and things? [speaker003:] Yeah that kind of thing I mean how was that wen you first [speaker002:] Yeah well they were all right when we first come in but eventually [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] th quite a lot wanted seeing to. And then they used to leave it and let us wait and this that and the other you know. But eventually they had them done. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] [cough]. [speaker003:] Did you f did you feel did you feel safe living in the flats now? Do you feel safe? Or not I mean, do you feel do you think you have to lock a door, or [speaker002:] I I don't [speaker003:] You don't think [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] Did you when you first came in? [speaker002:] I was alright when I first came in because I'm under the doctor under the h hospital at the moment. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And you're frightened of every little thing. That happens. And they do happen and all. [speaker003:] Yeah, what kinds of things happen that you know, that make you feel unhappy? [speaker002:] Well by yourself to open the door. Once once I opened the door and I were knocked back and all me rent and. [speaker003:] How long ago was that? [speaker002:] Er that's qui it was quite a while ago, but it happened. [speaker003:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker002:] we had that that kind of thing. Going into wh where there's only one person. And you know who was doing it. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] mention names. You can't mention names can you? [speaker003:] So when it happens what happened when it happ When that happened to you, what did you do? [speaker002:] reported it and they send him out the flats. [speaker003:] Did y did it happen did when when it happened to you when this happened to you, when you had things stolen from you. Someone came to the door. So what who did you go to? Did you get any help? [speaker002:] Yes I got help. [speaker003:] Yes. Who? [speaker002:] It was it still happened. [speaker003:] To you? [speaker002:] It still happened to other people and all. Especially old people. Old people. Not people that could that can defend themselves that can what's the name of it if they could Well they've broken old people's doors in and took their money and and hit them and whatsername. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you so you see yourself the fact that you're living here on your own, in the in the flats, makes you feel more vulnerable. feel more vulnerable living in here on your own? [speaker002:] You mean frightened? [speaker003:] Yeah I think yeah. [speaker002:] Yes yes. they take them in and that's it. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] got all these. [speaker003:] Do you think Yeah. Do you think it's do you think what do you think of the flats to live you know, as a senior citizen, do you think it's suitable for senior citizens to live in the flats? Do you think it's a good place for senior citizens to live, these flats? [speaker002:] Yes. If they didn't take the wrong people in at the end. [speaker003:] If they didn't? [speaker002:] Take the wrong people in the the whatsername. [speaker003:] Mhm. So what kind of people live here that we what's what's made it go you you said that it's got one of the s what are the kind of things that go on now, that wo didn't go on before? [speaker002:] Well tried to go across the road and get get a bit of shopping. Well in the evening they can't do do that now. They've got to stop behind the doors. They're frightened to death. bus stops going to get off. Aye they're from up town. Drunk. [speaker003:] Does that happen Have you had that a few times is it? [speaker002:] Aye. first I took out didn't I. [cough] Even when you go out at the daytime. on they're own. [speaker003:] Mm. How many t I mean er how many times has have you have you had have you had have you had problems with people you know when you told me about w that incident when someone came to the door and took your r took your rent off you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Has it has it happened other times as well or [speaker002:] Oh two or three times. [speaker003:] What's happened? Same What's happened on the two or three times? [speaker002:] Well they go ferreting around don't they. [speaker003:] They come in your house? [speaker002:] They get in. Where they get the keys from, I don't know. Yeah.... Oh experience duck. See there was part of it you've got er you've got to have somebody with you. They they change everything over don't they, they they don't do this and they don't do that. I had a dog. And my doctor my doctor said, You can't have the dog you need because you're sick on and off all the time. And it'll make you worse. And I had a cat. That was told to go out. You see what you're what you're up against. [speaker003:] Mhm.... So do you know when you do you know when you erm I mean lived in the flats in the flats for fifteen years, have you managed to make many friends? [speaker002:] Well as time went on [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] These people come in and it was alright and after a little while, it was the old old story. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I said, Well why'd they do it. I've got no make make people unhappy and whatsername, break in and take the take your food and everything. You know what I mean. [speaker003:] So that's happened has it? [speaker002:] Oh aye. Up the top and all. Yeah. [speaker003:] So what is it did you used to have more f er was it okay at first I mean you used to have quite a few friends when you first move in? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And yet now sort of like now [speaker002:] I've got no friends now. [speaker003:] Is that because those people have moved out or what was the reason? [speaker002:] They mo they moved out. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They moved out.... cos I don't I he I don't think he has owt to do with anybody that knocks on his door. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do your family ever visit you here? Come come to the flats occasion. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] What do they think of the flats, do they ever say much? [speaker002:] got a council house, they're still paying for it. [speaker003:] Yeah. What do they think of these flats? [speaker002:] Well i er my son said they were alright. When I was over there at Walk. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But er... the way they were carrying on, just lately. You're i you get in your bed and you don't know what's gonna happen next time. You're frightened to go to sleep. You are. [speaker003:] You know when you when you first came in the flats, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] did you get things like milk delivered? Was milk delivered [speaker002:] Yeah I took me whatsername. Took out the things. for over there. [speaker003:] Was it getting pinched? [speaker002:] Aye it were getting pinched off of me cupboard's outside the door. That was getting pinched. [speaker003:] Mhm. So that that just stopped did it in the end. It was [speaker002:] I had to go and get it up across the road. [cough] Yeah. I've had some hard times mhm. [speaker003:] So has it got er would you say it's got has it [speaker002:] Got worse? [speaker003:] got worse you say? [speaker002:] Oh yeah. Yes. You don't know who you're talking to. Some of the women's just as bad. [speaker003:] What do you mean in what s when you say, You don't know who you're talking to, yeah have you s what what what sense do you mean that? What do you mean by [speaker002:] ....... Then three weeks ago it was a [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] another ten pounds pinched out of me purse. [speaker003:] When did how did that happen? [speaker002:] Ten pound. Yeah. [speaker003:] How did it happen. Is that outside or [speaker002:] In. They were in. [speaker003:] People just ca er [speaker002:] There there was supposed to. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Of course I've had to get. And then I went in me purse, and the ten pounds was gone out of it. One one of was white and the other was coloured. Ten pound.... [speaker003:] How do you sp y how do you you know erm a typical day you know each day, how do you spe I mean, what time to get up normally in the morning? [speaker002:] sometimes I don't sleep. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'm lying there frightened to death and then I'm worn out. Now I wa woke up at five o'clock this morning. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And I'd a breath of fresh air. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Before see going to work. And them that's been drinking and that and didn't come b back [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to their own flats. You you might meet up with some of them. [speaker003:] Mhm. What kinds of things do you do during the day? What kind of things do you How do you spend your day? Normally? I know just now when I came in just now you were doing some housework. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You were sweeping the floor. And do y And do you spend quite a bit of time d on housework or n [speaker002:] Yeah. But now I have [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] a home help come in. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] A home help come in. [speaker003:] How often does s does er the home help come in? [speaker002:] She comes in Mondays and Fridays. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mondays and Fridays. [speaker003:] So do you find that does that help you quite a bit or [speaker002:] Er Oh yeah. I'm going down the steps three weeks ago, and er one of them front me, the other behind me but how I tripped up I don't know. I I tripped up and fell down at the side. And I came against the wall. Can you see how me hand is? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And me shoulder. Went up at the doctor's [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] the hospital twice and they said, There's nowt we can do, it's got to make it right itself. Well now this was quite a while. It's still badly, I can't lift it up. I can't do anything with it. [speaker003:] So you I mean you well how did you what kind of erm food wh I mean do you where do you get your loc I mean where do your food from? I know you you were telling me you you were applying for erm to get meals on wheels, but you ha that hasn't come through yet. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So what are you doing? What do you do for meals? [speaker002:] I get them across the road but there they're dear. Oh dear. [speaker003:] where do you go. [speaker002:] Across the road, down the steps, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And that green door cos I can't walk too far. [speaker003:] So you just go [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And what kind of what kind of things do you eat? I mean what kind of food do you buy to [speaker002:] Er chops, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] potatoes, cabbage, peas, carrots [speaker003:] Do you normally get tinned do you get tinned veg or do you or do you buy the erm [speaker002:] Sometimes I go to the neighbours to open some tinned stuff for me. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] . I miss them all. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you normally have Do you have much for breakfast normally or not? What do you do for breakfast? [speaker002:] I have a cereal. [speaker003:] Just some cereal. [speaker002:] Cereal milk and... me boiled egg. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you ever go in the market? [speaker002:] Well no er [speaker003:] Indoor market [speaker002:] Here? [speaker003:] Yeah here. [speaker002:] Yeah they come they come once a week don't they? [speaker003:] Do you go there eve ever. [speaker002:] No I you see would be badl I've got to have somebody with me. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Because too many people around, it makes me go like this, and I [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] fall down. [speaker003:] Yeah. I noticed. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Do you do anything what do you do on a Sunday? Do you have a special meal on Sunday? Do you do anything special on a Sunday or do you eat the same kind of things as you eat a normal day? [speaker002:] Well I've got a swe I have a sweet. [speaker003:] You have a sweet on a Sunday? [speaker002:] Yeah. You know that tinned stuff. [speaker003:] You get a ti so you get the tinned sponges you mean? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And er I have chicken.... And I get beef You know it varies [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] varies. [speaker003:] Do you get like do you get the the the chicken, do you get a chicken portion or [speaker002:] Er I I get portions sometimes. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And er If you get a small little chickens you can make them do two days [speaker003:] Oh you mean the the s the smalls yeah. [speaker002:] The sm the small ones. [speaker003:] Mhm. And do you get those where do you get those from? [speaker002:] I get them o over the road. [speaker003:] Just over the road. Butcher's over the road. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [speaker003:] Do you have well what about a at at erm dinner time. You know l you know, lunch? Do have you have do you do you eat much then or [speaker002:] Do you mean for me tea? [speaker003:] No no you you you told me about what your tea is. dinner you know in between. There's there's breakfast then there's lunchtime, then there's evening meals. [speaker002:] when I was in that nearly a fortnight. I I used to have sh cereal. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And. [speaker003:] Yeah. Where did you go away for a fortnight to? [speaker002:] See I I forget where the name of the place is. But I used to live there. the edge of Nottingham somewhere. [speaker003:] Who took you there? Who was it who took you there? [speaker002:] They took me in a car. [speaker003:] Wh wh who took you there. [speaker002:] Er it all come through. [speaker003:] Social this is social services? [speaker002:] Yeah took me in to er build me up. [speaker003:] To build you up. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And when you ca yeah so that was How long ago was that? Was that [speaker002:] Oh not too long ago. [speaker003:] And so how. What so what kind of things do you eat now. you you told us that you had quite a lot meat and veg and things. Do you have very much to eat at lunch time, in between I mean you tend to eat erm take the take your big meal at lunch time or at night? [speaker002:] Er. [speaker003:] Tea time. [speaker002:] I have it at dinner time duck. [speaker003:] dinner time? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And then what what do you have at tea time? Do you have very much at tea time or [speaker002:] No I don't have too much at tea time. Er I'm not a big eater. [speaker003:] Mhm. How do you find it erm find like getting by financially on the money that you've got. I mean how do you do you I mean [speaker002:] Well only barely duck. [speaker003:] Barely. [speaker002:] You've got your your rent. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You've got your insurance. [speaker003:] The so it that the insurance is that for the erm is it er is is the insurance for the in ca in case of theft is that is that is that the insurance you're talking about? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh dear. [speaker003:] So is that And what about the electricity bills how do you? [speaker002:] They're they're the whatsername So I'm sending a couple of pound until it's paid up. In an envelope. [speaker003:] This is for what? [speaker002:] For for me what was it you asked me? [speaker003:] Yeah you were saying about you said you said about erm the insurance, you were saying about that and what you were saying about your electricity. [speaker002:] Yeah. A little while ago it come too much for me cos I'd got a lot to pay. [speaker003:] The electricity this is? [speaker002:] Yeah this is. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So I send I'll send a bit each w week fortnight when I get all my money. I'll pay the bill that way. [speaker003:] Mhm.... What do you do for things like clothes?... [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] You have do you [speaker002:] I can't afford to buy new clothes. I'll go in the shop over there [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] that and one or two things I took with me.. [speaker003:] So you I mean do you so do you do you go to jumble sales at all or? [speaker002:] Er I'll go across the road duck somebody comes with me. [speaker003:] Yeah you go [speaker002:] I buy g some good clothes there second hand. [speaker003:] Is that at erm at a local shop or or at or at the er church jumble sale do you mean. [speaker002:] The church jumble sale whatsernames.... [speaker003:] What d what do you do erm Christmas and Easter? Holidays such as that. I mean what do you do normally on those days. Do you normally stay here or do you go away? [speaker002:] I go to me son's. [speaker003:] You go to your son's? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Is your son family? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] What about erm do you ever get any holidays at all? holiday Flats. [speaker002:] That that was a holiday that [speaker003:] Yeah the one that you had a [speaker002:] see my daughter my my daughter in law's a terribly ill woman, she she's got a ki a ki last year, she was terrible with her kidney. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] She was in the hospital a long while. My son had to stop off of work to see to the t two children. And when the time come, they got her a new kidney, and it never took. That's a year ago. Then they started again, they started to give her another they did, and the same thing happened. It never took. They're supposed to take you know. He had to stop off of work. To look after the children. [speaker003:] Mhm. How do f what do you think of the cos you know for you know Speaking as a senior citizen, do you what do you think of the facilities loca lo here? For for senior citizens do you I mean do you think the the the rent up to what they should be or not? [speaker002:] The rent? [speaker003:] The the facilities the kind of things I mean what what kind of you know the ki erm is erm Would you like more there to be more friendly people or not, do you or do you think there's enough? [speaker002:] In what? [speaker003:] Liv in the Do you know in the actual flats where you're living here? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Is there enough do you think enough is provided for? For elderly people? [speaker002:] they should have two doors. Shouldn't they. And then what what chance have you got? [speaker003:] So you'd like two doors? [speaker002:] You should you should have two doors. They doesn't want to do them. D definitely. I think that big whatsername riot did you call it? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Riot. I was I was in here they they broke the window. [speaker003:] They broke your windows? [speaker002:] All they broke all the windows went up to all the shops don't you remember? [speaker003:] How did that Yeah. How did it start? What was what did it start from? [speaker002:] God only knows and He won't split. God only knows. I'm screaming here in the house. And the neighbours can't get me. See the I was on me own. I were knocked back on the bloody floor. They pushed us pushed Oh my God it was terrible. Till three police come and got hold of them. I landed up in hospital. What did they do it for? I I ask you. Is it because they were out of work or what? [speaker003:] And what do you feel, why do you think they did it? [speaker002:] cops out. They c Oh they came in buses didn't they. Yeah all the flats. And the shops. Didn't you have that in your book? [speaker003:] Did you Do you know when erm when that happened, was that the first that had ha had anything like that ever happened before? In all the time you've been in the flats? [speaker002:] Not like that Not like that. [speaker003:] It hadn't What kind of things had been in the past? Nothing? See What so that was the first time [speaker002:] spoiled everything that were Aft after that [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the shopkeepers didn't know what to do with theirself. They were wondering whether it was going to happen again. Course it wore off then. The the things got better. They had cleared out. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And of course the ne evidently some old come along and picked up, you know the shops. Oh it was terrible. Terrible the [speaker003:] How long did it last for, that trouble? [speaker002:] Ooh it was terri t a long time duck.... [speaker003:] Do you used er do you know when you have you have you made much use of the housing office the the the local housing office? You know the sort of complex here?. [speaker002:] I've got one there ain't I? [speaker003:] Yes do you go to the housing office at all if you have any problems? [speaker002:] Yeah well they go home at night time don't they? [speaker003:] Yeah so you've g [speaker002:] So they're going to ain't they? they go home at night and it's coloured girls, white girls and then there's the men that the cars. Goes out. They live just here go down the steps. There. Is that what you mean? [speaker003:] I'm talking about the housing office. You know the housing office If say you've got need any repairs or anything, if you've got any problems, do you do you use them at all do you go and go and see them? It's the housing office, you know that's on the complex. Just at the front. [speaker002:] Yeah you you go tell the [speaker003:] Yeah do you go have you been there often? [speaker002:] Yeah er and they made you wait wait an hour, duck. They used to have wet fl floors and everything. [speaker003:] Mm. Have you had a lot of problems with repairs? What kind of things have gone wrong in the past. [speaker002:] Yeah we something wrong with the bathroom. [speaker003:] What was it? [speaker002:] The taps er at the side are leaking. Coming in in the corners where the where you go out on the landing. When I was over there. Er all the water was coming over the doors. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh I'm glad you asked me that duck, I could tell you plenty about it. [speaker003:] Well like what kind of things? [speaker002:] Er the water was coming in and you couldn't put mats on the floor. Couldn't put mats on the floor. Over the d over the windows it was coming in. All well we all said it must have been a quick job. We didn't know what to think did we?... Yeah. Does everybody tell you er that? Do they? [speaker003:] Did the people old people who have problems [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah How how do you feel about the fact the flats are coming down?... I mean do you f I mean how do you feel about ha about moving? [speaker002:] I feel sick. I don't want to leave. [speaker003:] You don't want [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] to leave? [speaker002:] I don't want to leave. So long as I've got somebody now there's nobody along here. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And I'm sick. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] See when as they took and can't whatsername [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You can't go out on your own, you don't know what's gonna got. I never let nobody know that I I walked home. And took a chance. And I come on to the mi middle [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] middle. They pulled the brakes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They pulled the brakes and they stopped the car to me. I fainted. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You don't put that down do you? [speaker003:] When you said You know when you said You know earlier on. Erm you said to me that that you used used to like it here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Then it went then it sort of since then the people it's gone [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But but but since then it's got worse. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] If it's got worse, why is it you'd still like to stay? I know it's not an easy question to ask you but [speaker002:] Well I'd say it's because whatsername I don't know what who I'm going to come next to. That's what [speaker003:] Is it the uncertainty I mean are you are you saying it's the uncertainty of what the future'll bring, that's why you feel [speaker002:] Yeah yes that's what I mean Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah that's it's just that I want to clarify that. [speaker002:] Yeah.... Oh it be ever so [speaker003:] Do you What do you do do you know if erm if you ever want to get to a phone to see a doctor or wh to get to a the doctor [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] or anyone else, what do you do? How do you I mean do you [speaker002:] We well we well [speaker003:] telephones and I mean how is it for telephones? [speaker002:] Well there was one at the end at en e at the end of er Walk. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Course you had to run out in snow, run out in rain.... Didn't you. Is that what you mean? [speaker003:] Mhm do you have do you have a lo I mean is it is it easy to get to in touch say you want to in an emergency, to get in touch with anyone phone, is it is it easy to get to a phone? What would you do? If you wanted to get in touch with the doctor? [speaker002:] Well when they brought the doctor for me. [speaker003:] Yeah who we who did you go to? [speaker002:] Well we went to one of them they went to one of them there. [speaker003:] What? [speaker002:] There's one out here, one here, but that one has gone, duck. [speaker003:] Som did somebody else do that for you? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Was that a neighbour or [speaker002:] Yes a neighbour. Yes a neighbour. It might be the letter man that brings the letters. [speaker003:] Mhm. What do you feel you know the fact that that that quite a lot of erm well you were saying e you saying that quite a few quite a lot more coloured people live here [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] than when you When you first came here you said there were not many coloured people. Yet now there are more. [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] How do you fe there are more coloured people Were there many peopl were there many coloured people when you first came here or just one or two or or none? [speaker002:] There were I couldn't see none. [speaker003:] You couldn't see any at all. So how do you feel about that the fact that there are more coloured people [speaker002:] Duck, they were coming in, there was some nice ones and some decent ones. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know what I mean. Oh my God almighty. they they used to pay the people to whatsername [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] when they come. They come kicking kicking all whatsernames up and down. [speaker003:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh the messing up and the bins. Yeah. [speaker003:] Mhm. But do you think that the Yeah so and do you f I mean d Have you managed to make any friends with coloured people on the flats at all? [speaker002:] I I that's what I've just said. They wasn't all like it. [speaker003:] Yes you've some you found some [speaker002:] Yeah. Yes. There is nice ones. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But there're some rowdies as well. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They wouldn't stop and think. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] During the period you've lived in the flats, have you found noise a problem or not? Has it been noisy or not? [speaker003:] Noisy. Noisy. [speaker002:] It has? [speaker003:] Yes as time went along. [speaker002:] What kind of well what kind of noise do you mean? [speaker003:] Er singing, falling out, breaking windows, fighting. With their wives and things. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Yes. You know the fact that what what do you feel about You know the fact that s there some girls you know that work as prostitutes locally [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] What do you feel about that I mean what's your view. [speaker002:] out there the cars comes and street walking on there. They haven't stopped it yet have they? [speaker003:] I mean what do you feel about [speaker002:] The police the police. Does a bit to the best of my ability but er they're there just the same. one lot get kicked er out then another lot comes. I think they should make a place for them. like they have been. You know [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Let them A decent place. And get them off of the streets. [speaker003:] So you s you s you're saying so you're saying some kind of actual [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So you not it it's do you say, you're not actually against, you don't mind er you you wouldn't mind them doing what they're doing if they did it away from here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] That's what you're saying, somewhere actually [speaker002:] Yes. Yes a a proper place. [speaker003:] Mhm. Why do why do think Yeah. [speaker002:] Eh? [speaker003:] Why do you think it is that that you get erm that you have got quite a few girls that become prostitutes, what do you think the reasons are for it? [speaker002:] You see I'm not he goes either [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And they go they go like that. They go like that. That's the only way I can see it. They go out. And it's Oh I think it's terrible. I think it's terrible. [speaker003:] You go H What do you feel towards the girls? That get [speaker002:] some of the girls they's kicked them out and. See what I mean it's all mixed up.. Yeah. one or two killed on here wasn't there?... [speaker003:] Do you kn erm on the subject of I know last last time I came when I spoke to you that you were saying about you were saying about religion and it was and the fact that you erm go to church. About going to church. Do you go often? To church? [speaker002:] Yeah. When I'm alright I go. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and the the that goes off there. [speaker003:] So do you so do you go together, a few of you together or do you go. [speaker002:] Er the catholics goes over there. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Catholics goes over there and the others go to er ones down protestants down here. [speaker003:] Mhm. So so which is your so so you go to you go to the local catholic church. [speaker002:] Yes just past the road. [speaker003:] Mhm and do you go how often do you go [speaker002:] You go on a Sunday morning [speaker003:] Sunday [speaker002:] you go to confession. Then you get communion, then you come home and have your breakfast. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] We fast back home. When we go country. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean in Ireland. [speaker003:] Yeah. [break in recording] Erm you were telling me about religion about the fact that you went to church. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It do you go each Sunday? Is it every Sunday you go? [speaker002:] Every Sunday yeah. [speaker003:] Do you get much do you enjoy going to church? [speaker002:] oh yes yeah. [speaker003:] Do you. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Jesus. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And then we put the money in the box for the whatsername. over there and get a communi communion. whatsername. And then there used to be talking about and er if you passed by them. You know shouted. What are you go what are you going there for. All. But you ignored them but in the end we we had to something abo about it. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you have much contact outs erm do you I mean do you Do you have much contact with people Have you got made many friends? That you know through going to to church? [speaker002:] Oh you make friends you go to chur church [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yeah. Of course you do. [speaker003:] Do you see many lo are there many local people from the from the flats who go? With you [speaker002:] Not all not all that many from the fl flats. All around there where them houses is. [speaker003:] Yeah. So it's mainly from the houses [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] Mhm.... Do you know any others erm tell you about erm you know some of the some of the times when you've been affected by crime. Erm what do you think of the police? What kind of job do you think the do in in the flats? [speaker002:] Well they're doing the best they've got them with the. Walking around all night.... I erm They start at six o'clock and finish at six I think. No finish about about nine o'clock. [speaker003:] Yeah. That's the security. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] That's the security people [speaker002:] Yeah well they're different than the other policemen. [speaker003:] They're di Yeah they're diff What about the actual police themselves, you see this is the security. Then there's the police. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] What about the actual police themselves? When you Do you see much of them? [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [speaker003:] You do? [speaker002:] Yeah you do. Yes. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] They're a Somewhere round here over there [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] somebody's in somewhere over there that's go t drugs. And then the police goes and all the the real police. And they're going up and down there, trying to catch hold of them. Swearing. Oh my God the dog's ba barking and nobody. Ju that's just lately. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] No sleep. coloureds play music until six o'clock in the morning. [speaker003:] Has there been has there been a problem with music on late? Has that been a problem that you've had often or. [speaker002:] Yeah there has. the daytime but not at nighttime. Cos there is people here that at work. But they don't consider nobody. And just lately they got as they do er whatsername. They come on y on your door and insulting you and one thing and another so There's nowt you could do. You couldn't stop them. [speaker003:] Do you think the police I mean do you think they should be. What do you think Are they ke What do you think are the major problems they should be concentrating on? What are the bi what are the crimes that the police should be concen [speaker002:] Well you you need when they do harm they [speaker003:] Yeah what kind of things should the police What are the most i What do you think are the major problems the major crimes in the flats? That the police should be concentrating on? What are the major problems for for you as a tenant? [speaker002:] You mean now [speaker003:] What are the kind of things I mean is it What what are the kind of things d that you think the police should be putting their efforts into stopping? [speaker002:] Stop it Well they did stop it didn't they? [speaker003:] Stop what? [speaker002:] They stopped it in the end didn't they? [speaker003:] Stopped what What are you t [speaker002:] Stopped them from what in our flats. They stopped them [speaker003:] Did they [speaker002:] They went ar they went around all the houses. Went around, duck. the blacks and the whites, they've all gone together.. Oh dear. You didn't know whether you you didn't know whether you got day or night. Frightened to go out and do a bit of shopping. [speaker003:] Was that was that during the riot. What you said that that what you said about the riots, was that is that what you're talking about the riots the worry. Is that what you're talking about now when you're saying about the about erm you didn't know what to About being frightened you've said a few times. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Was it during the riots that you [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I were coming home one day with the with the with me shopping. And and took the bag out of me hands. And me other bag with me money in. Course I'd never carry that bag again. [speaker003:] How long ago was that? [speaker002:] Oh it's not all that long ago, duck.... That woman at the corner was she has her bag pinched often. [speaker003:] Mhm. So do you think you do you think the police do a lot er do enough to help help you with those type of problems? [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [speaker003:] They do [speaker002:] They do their best. [speaker003:] Do their best. [speaker002:] They go through hell and fire with you. Yeah they do. [speaker003:] What do you think about th Yeah. [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] What do you think about the government? Do you think the what do you think of the government [speaker002:] No I tell you what I think about the the govern government. [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker002:] It's no good since Margaret Thatcher go in. [speaker003:] Mhm. What has it what has it what ways are you critical? What do you think [speaker002:] Well for a start they're all. For a start. They got no putting a bit of best clothes on and having a good time breaking in in people's houses and one thing and another. They've got no money. They've got no jobs. They they'll wa going around hungry. Well that's my estimation. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you v well do you vote at elections? [speaker002:] Yeah. I do vote. [speaker003:] So how do you think yo how do you think you'll Do you think you [speaker002:] I don't I don't whatsername for all. [speaker003:] You mean [speaker002:] I get I get out of it. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I don't she'd be brought in any more. [speaker003:] So who would [speaker002:] She's all for the p she's all for the whatsernames. Er money people. people who've got money she's all she'll look after them but she's not looking after them blokes. Now. [speaker003:] Mhm. So how do you think you'll vote when it comes to the election? [speaker002:] I'll vote for the right person won't I. [speaker003:] Mhm. So you so you wouldn't vo So what you're saying is woul [recording ends]

[speaker001:] You want me to start again? [speaker002:] Yeah. Right erm, could you tell me about how you left school please? [Jack:] I were let good. Well it was nineteen thirteen, I know that because I was thirteen. You see I were born in nineteen hundred so that means to say that when it's nineteen ninety eight I'll be ninety eight, I think they did that so I could er reckon me age up more easily. But nineteen thirteen I went to this examination and it was called a Labour Examination, and if you were able to pass this examination you could leave school at thirteen. Well it'd probably be the June or July before I went in for this exam, which they didn't hold very frequently and er then I had to to pass this exam and that I could leave school in the August, Bank Holiday. So I left in the Bank Holiday and er I went to work at er, the first job, me father worked there. and on Street. And er me job there was turning sock what you'd call halfoes you know mens' socks, from one side to the other on a piece of wood, you know you'd pull the stocking onto this wood, put your finger on the back, turned it over and threw it down. And er we used to get the work come to us all jumble up in waggons, and throw it onto a bench and then of course you'd got to pick the top before you could turn it. We did that and we counted it in bunches of five dozens, tied them up with two other stock socks tied together, and when we'd done, I'll know this figure's right two thousand four hundred socks we got six pence. That's two and half pence in today's money. But but strange to relate er I can remember on you know a number of occasions earning a golden half sovereign, you know real gold it was then, the you know there was the gold coins. Nineteen thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. And so er it it was a a reasonably good wage but when I first started of course I wasn't on piece rate, you used to get a penny an hour, when we worked Saturday morning got about six and sixpence a week. And er and that's how I went on. Now in nineteen er nineteen fifteen, the the of course the War'd started and I can remember this so well because the day after me birthday er there was a raid, a Zeppelin raid on and I saw this Zeppelin and that day the thirty first of January nineteen fifteen when this raid was, I wen I went to work at six in the morning and I finished work at quarter to nine at night. This wasn't regular, the real hour was half past six until six o'clock but when we were very busy you could stop you know as long as you like nobody'd ever bother. All all the boss used to say, Well if anybody comes round th that you don't know just go and hide in a hamper. You know in case there was any inspector or anybody but er I don't remember anybody ever coming. We just worked as long as we liked and it and it was hard work of course it was, turning these socks like that, two, well it was hundred dozen pays, that's two thousand four hundred. And you used to get sixpence for that. [speaker002:] So how much could you earn in a week? [Jack:] Well that's well I cou I could earn a lo er a golden half sovereign. That was it. [speaker002:] Did this go to your, did you live with your mother at the time, with your parents? [Jack:] Oh of course oh I I was only fourteen aye. Of course and that w oh I and ti and so anyway I started er work in August nineteen thirteen and er when December came around er there was a strike. And at that time the hosiery finishing union had perhaps got [breath] eight hundred er nine hundred members spread over perhaps eight factories. And er there was a er er one of the prominent factories was at. Now... it er they said that this chap had g had gone to work after an illness and the boss said, Well er you've been away six weeks, he said, There's no job here for you now. He'd worked there years and years. And he got the sack so the firm came on strike. And er then they started blacklegs and when they started the rest of the firms all came as well then and I remember er going down on the picket lines and er they'd be all the members there. You know I don't know who wouldn't go. Er with the addition of a lot of of members of the public who sympathized and knew what was happening. Well they got these blacklegs and I could tell you a story about that as well. Now a man as I used to visit, older than me now, er the blacklegs used to be escorted with police to their homes like from this factory. They'd sometimes er take them in vans depending where they lived and how many of them, but where there was a single one two police used to escort him, and they escorted him what, where we what they call the viaduct. And it was a real big viaduct at, back of. And er now this chap him a wan he he was about ninety and him and his pal, they said, Well we'll lie in the, there were a lot of bull rushes, we'll lie in these bull rushes, he says, And we'll throw bricks at them as they go by, at these two police and er this blackleg. And er he tells me he says, Well we night that we were going to do it, meeting them from work it w it was getting dark of course, December, he said that there was only me turned up. He says er er and he says me pal didn't come, he said, Well, I thought well I've come here to do it, and I'm going. So I said I went and lay in the in these bull rushes and I got half a brick, yes, he says, and I saw them coming and he says and I threw it and hit him this er blackleg with this half brick. He said of course I scampered through these bull rushes, they never saw me they never caught me and they never ever knew who it was who'd done it, see. And he always tells me, he said that er he had no sleep during the night he he thought he'd killed this man, you see, he says, I seen him drop, and I seen blood. So I thought I've killed him. And er so he never had any sleep that night, well that was the that's a story about them days. [speaker002:] How how did you feel about trade unionism then? [Jack:] Well now everybody had to be in a union in our factory, it was er it it it was they were closed shops all of them. And er y y and it's surprising isn't it? There was you know little firms like that and yet everybody was in, nobody nobody would ever try and er and er and er and escape paying their contribution, but there was a law you couldn't join a union till you were sixteen, that was the law then in then, but er... when this strike came back and we came on strike in December, er we lads who was under age joined the union, they give us all six bob a week, the union did. Un until they were broke you know, after a week or two they got broke. And so th union er er issued er er a a leaflet affair and said that they'd be pleased to receive loans from any of the members. Would any of the members lend them any money? Now the Co-op allowed, of course there was individual Co-ops then, this was Co-op, it wasn't like what had a big Co-op. But they allowed all strikers er to have er free credit, free credit, and er well of course this six bob was what we got o practically on an ordinary weeks work, was about as well off on strike then and we was going to work you see. But what I was going to tell you about this loan and I was there on this Friday morning when we were drawing our money, and the men were bringing their their s life savings to lend to the union. And I saw one man the fact that he was me uncle don't make any difference, but he was, and and he was very religious, very Christian man,S Sunday School superintendent. But I saw him with his cap full of golden sovereigns and turned on the table and lent them all he'd got. And everyone were paid back, you know. That that's good, isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] Now... So anyway the strike er never reached a successful conclusion, this firm had it's blacklegs and er eventually closed because it couldn't carry on. But every other factory agreed to take so many each of the men, so they'd nobody be at, lose their job. And they did. And the factory where I work I should think we took about fourteen of the men at this factory. But no man was unemployed. [speaker002:] Was it mainly male labour then? [Jack:] Well it were main i i no really there was er well pretty equally divided then. And the general run of hosiery is that there is of course that there's a lot more females than males but in our side pretty equal. [cough] The finishing side, and so that was that. [speaker002:] Er you read a lot about women in the hosiery industry not being as willing to join the unions, was that true? [Jack:] Well in them days everybody used to be in anyway, there was no question. All the women were, and that's true of of the hosiery industry, of course you've got a a there's a big distinction between the hosiery industry as such and the hosiery finishing industry which was then the, they're amalgamated now, but there were two entirely distinct unions, in tho Er as a matter of fact they n n they never met together.... Course the hosiery union was as it is now, was always right wing and the small finishing union was really er left wing you know. But we was all in and they was er they wasn't fifty per cent organized anyway near. Now of course that's er er the story but I went to them afterwards you see.... So anyway I er... the War came and went but before it went I was in, went int eh Army of course. At eighteen, I was called up for the Army and I was three years there. Came back in twenty one.... I don't think there's anything really amazing about me Army career, I didn't [LAUGHTER]. I don't know whether I was a good soldier or not, but I went to Egypt and the Sudan. I had a good look round you know. Cairo.... Er right are you? [speaker002:] We're still going. [Jack:] Switch er as switch it off a minute, while I er [break in recording] Er i i nineteen eighteen in the Army, they er came round er asking for volunteers to relieve the British troops er on the Russian front, where there was fighting, the Russian Revolution. And of course you know there are twenty odd fronts at where they were fighting, and er they made big paly of this because er the people who did volunteer knew, there was a few volunteered, they they gave them er white bands to wear round the arm to show that they was members of the relief force you know. And so it were good propaganda this er this, people were saying, Well they're prepared to go to Russia and fight the Russians to re re you know release our lads, they're trying to capture. And er but of course that didn't last long because of course you know the story of the Jolly George, when that really stopped England's intervention, didn't it. You know that? [speaker002:] I don't know about the Jolly George. [Jack:] Don't you, you should do.... I well I could tell you the inside story of that but I'm not going to but I will tell the outside, the public story. The the Jolly George er was a ship that was loaded with arms er to send to Russia, to for our the use of our troops in Russia, and the sailors refused to sail it, and there was quite a to do about this because they'd got the steam up and it was ready to go but they never went. And it never sailed. And that was the real reason why it was stopped, because the the the the other dockers were going to refuse to allow ships to leave the ports with arms, and that's where it really stopped, but you never heard, you don't hear about it now in history. No. But anyway er and then of course I, we went to... To the East, well we went to Ireland first, there was trouble in Ireland you know. I went to Ireland, but we was only there about three weeks. The reason why we was there b it was because er there was so many deserters in our lot. But they took what few they'd got left on our regiment to Ireland so nobody else'd desert, while they rounded the others up and took them to Ireland you see. And then so we went from Ireland er to er to Egypt. Come back through England and went to... on the boat. We'd took incidentally which is not uninteresting it took us ten days to get to er Egypt, to get to Alexandria from er Plymouth, we went from Plymouth. And er the date was December the fourth, now December the fourth, and that was the day which er you wouldn't know this but er that was the day when fought er Joe you know, for the European Championship. I don't know of any boxing match that's ever captured the interest of people and it was that night, course we never heard the result, not until we got to Egypt, you there was no wireless you see, you didn't know what was happening at all. And er if you were interested in football you'd never know till Tuesday morning what had happened on that Saturday, the previous Saturday. I mean that's how communications were in them days. And anyway so we went to er over to Egypt and then it was when we came back... and I I, the other morning on the radio they was talking about asking people to ring in about, I've never rang in, I never bother ring, er how they spent their twenty first birthday. Now my twenty first birthday I'd never had a copper for weeks, w e hadn't got anything, anything at all, and all we got really was the old fashioned dog biscuits. And I was in in Alexandria, and er and that was it, that was my twenty first birthday there you see. And anyway when we got back to England er we went to Aldershot, and wasn't there long. But while we were there they had several meetings because of course we were going to be demobbed anyway, and the Colonel er of the regiment he had us together and so did the officers, and warned us that when we got back to civilian life we must er beware of these agitators who tried to er create suspicion amongst the troops who were coming back, and telling them that they ought to join er these revolutionary parties. Warning us all about this, so well I thought well if they warn us, something must be good here, if they're warning us that it's bad you know. And so when I er I wen I went back to work. And there was a a a a lad who was about a couple of years older than me, he'd be about twenty three, he'd been through the War and er he was a real revolutionary, he was re and and he was very intelligent. So he started me on the on politics, and he was very good. He'd got the one of the quickest er turns of er of brain you know, he could switch from one thing to another, and he was most remarkable. He he really was. He died pretty but he's got. And he was a member of the Independent Labour Party. So I used to go with him, and incidently he was a, he was very good on classical music, although we never went into this although I'd got very close to him but I'm sure he were brought up in an orphanage you know, and never talked about this but I'm sure he was. But he was a real first class tutor. Well so we went to the I L P and er at this time we started getting er a class together in the, where I worked there was a hundred men and hundred lads, approximately. Every man had a lad working for him you see. So at this er time we decided we'd start er a little class in this we did. And we got the union to er all all they did was to help us, was to pay for the text books that we had. If you see we'd got about er twenty eight thirty in this class, and er they bought the text books and we joined a national college of labour colleges. Now you've heard about them of course, you must have heard about them. And er I think er the retreat of the working class movement s i i is from the date when the N C L C was abolished, and opt into the General Council of the T U C. You see the T U C education er department is er rises from the demise of the N C L C but of course the the N C L C was really really good, first class tutors. We'd got two in and they was really first class. I could say a lot about ho, but anyway we started this and we used to go to the I L P, and we used to get packed meetings there on a Sunday night, and s then about nineteen, course we had the general strike, and through the general strike we was both in the I L P and we were doing everything we could you know, distributing the illegal leaflets, and er newspapers that we duplicated, on a hand duplicator. And er so I spent several years in the I L P as a secretary and at that time met er the people who ran the place. He, including Oswald Moseley, he was a big man in the I L P you know. Till he formed his new party.... As a matter of fact I've been I've got a book now from the library we got last week that er about Moseley and er and his daughter, and it's good.... Are you right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Jack:] There was a a s an Indian student came to and he was a prospective Labour candidate, but the Labour Party prevented him from being a candidate er because er his main theme in life was to try and get India free from you know the British Empire. And er he he was having a conference in, course with dropping out of the Labour Party, the Labour Party finished with him and didn't bother and anyw he he someone I don't know who it was, it wasn't him himself but someone told me that he was looking for somebody to organize this conference in, so I said, Well I I'll do it. And er so this student came to and I organized a conference and took the chair for him you know and er and helped him every possible way. And he er and he was really delighted of course, so he said, Well I'm holiday and I'll come round with the caravan, so I had my holiday which didn't make much difference because there was [LAUGHTER] had to you know we weren't working really, and I went round with him for this week, all round and the villages everywhere. On the theme that India must be free you see. And I can remember having a rubber stamp made and every letter that went out I insisted every one should have this frank on India Must be Free. And er now this chap was, you never hear of him. Well his name was, a very brilliant man, well... w he'd be nearly as old as me of course. And er I've heard it mentioned about him on on on people who have interviewed him on television. And they said he never said much to them, well he perhaps didn't, he wouldn't do because he was like that you see, but pra before interviewing him on television, er of course the War came and India was given freedom, and er there used to be you know the Sweet people who used to have a big factory on Road, was a very famous sweet in them days, I don't think they are now, but was a very good sweet firm, and they'd got a daughter cos she was in the, during the War the Anglo-Soviet Friendship er she was one of the course they'd got hundreds but she was one. And er the years went by and al all I know is that he said ooh she's she's married a London doctor, you see. [cough] So I was waling through the bus station one day and I met this girl and er Ooh, she said, I'm glad I've seen you, she said. She said er, I was at a reception in London at the Indian Embassy and when er I was introduced as coming from, she says, The High Commission said to me, You come from? She said, And and it were, of course. He was the first High Commission for England in England, said, You come from, she says, Yes, he says, You don't happen to know Jack do you? She says, I do, know him well, he said, Well I'll, I am pleased, he's alright? Says, Yes. He says, Well you tell him from me that I shall never forget. You see that was nice wasn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] And then he went from England as being High Commission, he went to Russia, to be the first Indian Ambassador in the Soviet Union and that were. [speaker002:] Do you remember much about other members of the I L P at the time, particular names? [Jack:] Oh yes. Oh yes I do. [Anne:] turn the fire up cos it's not very warm in here. [Jack:] Aren't you, he says he's always warm. [speaker002:] I'm fine, thanks. [Jack:] And I'm warm enough. [Anne:] You'll see [Jack:] Are you warm enough in there? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jack:] Can you find plenty to do? [Anne:] Yeah yeah, I can, looking after you. [Jack:] [LAUGHTER]. And anyway er er switch it on. [speaker002:] Er I l I left it on I can cut that bit out when I [Jack:] I do oh I don't know I'd leave that, I mean what were [speaker002:] Talking about other people in the I L P [Jack:] Oh other people in I L P. Yeah. Now in this little booklet that I've got about the er er the potted history of the Cosmopolitan Debating Society, it mentions a very brilliant man by the name of W H, now I was very friendly with him because he was th President of the I L P and I was the secretary. And he was a brilliant man. I've met a lot of brilliant people and and was one. He was great. He was a salesman for the Pencil Firm, you know a big pencil firm. And I always remember he said said to me, he'd placed the biggest orders for pencils, of course in them, there were no ball pens, er he he received that from the London County Council by accident. It was di, he used to, he he he'd got an office in London, and he went every day to London, catch the train about twelve o'clock, catch the train back about four. He'd only go for a couple of hours to his London office. A b on on one day he he went earlier and he had his lunch in London, he said, and there was another man on the table and er the both reached for the salt together and upset it and there was apologies and talks and then he discovered that he was the buyer for the London County Council. So he placed an order with him for all these, and he had to come back to the factory, reorganize the factory, to meet this terrific order he'd got for pencils, you see. That was. And he s he said to me, he said er, at that time after the War, the Viennese, the Austrians, had er erected er working class flats in Vienna, something unheard of. And we'd seen photographs of these and they were marvellous, and he said to me, I should like to see these fl these flats, he said er, I'm gonna convince the Board that it's necessary in the interests of the firm for me to go to Austria, you see. So he said, But any road, before I go, he said er and my first nineteen twenty nine this was, and we went together on holiday, on the Continent which was unheard of, you know for working class people, but we went in nineteen twenty nine. We went to er Ostend, and he went from Ostend at the end of this week's holiday to Austria, for the firm you know. And er I I don't know where they've gone now but I had some lovely photographs of these flats. An then a few months later he said, Well oh, he said, I'm I'm g I'll go to Canada, he says, er I'll tell them. And he went and told them how necessary it was for him to go to Canada, in the interests of the firm. He said, But, I said, Are you going? He said, I'm going, he said, But, he said, I've got to, I've got to take the s the, this millionaire ran this firm and his name was if I remember right. He said, I've got to take his stupid son with me. So he had to go there to Canada you see and er and. And it says in this booklet that W H was for one for a period, the prospective Labour candidate for er Central, as was then. He said, but he never fought the election, well now I know he did, that's a mistake cos he did. Because he he told me about the chap who was his agent. This was before I was associated with him, was his agent. And he said but the way I'd like to do it, he says I I'd love to fight it again, with er with you as me agent, instead of, I'm sure I could win it. And i I remember going to the Empire to a debate we took with. And er I think the Liberal was Norman, you know the great barrister. And er a Tory.... And he were a lot better than the Tory, and he held his own with which was saying something, saying something. But anyway, he died in his forties of er diabetes, he said sugar diabetes, and he died, which is a pity. But his son I I kept in touch with his son for years, he was an architect. He was on the Trades Council. And er he he always used to say of me, he say, Well you know er he was on the Executive, he said of the Trades Council. He says You know go ho I go home, he says, And I could never make out wether you praise me or criticize me. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] He said I I'll I'll I'll never really know [] and I think now what was he was he praising me or blaming me, he said, And I'll never know. You know it was fun though. Very nice lad. [speaker002:] What did you think about about the the Parliamentary Labour Party at the time? [Jack:] Well now the Parliamentary Labour Par, what what happened was that er... oh I went to a conference at the the I L P in Carlisle, annual conference. And er it was real great event, and of course Moseley was to speak in there. On the committee of the I L P at that time, and John, and then er and then an MP from, er Birmingham, Fred. One of one of one of the most charming speakers I ever heard, he was. And er it was at that time that the Independent Labour Party left the I the Labour Party. You see the majority er er at least half the er Labour MPs also was in membership with the I L P. But when the I L P wanted to lay down more militant lines the Labour Party wanted to throw them out anyway, and so the I L P-ers all decided that er the best thing to do was to leave rather than get thrown out. And which is different for today, but that that was what really happened. Well and so it split the Labour Party and the from er at that time you know we got five hundred members in with the Labour Party. And er we had our own hall in Street. Own hall. Where we had meetings, packed every Sunday night and dances, you know people more was er much more militant then, the people were, I don't know about the M P, but the people were much more militant. I mean during the er, preceding the General Strike, I know that there were pubs in you know, ordinary working class pubs, and they used to close with the singing of the Red Flag. You know amazing change. My view of the General Strike is that if we'd have had a Lenin we'd have had a revolution. The people were r they really were ready you know, I think so. Mind you some people living through that, you know George? [speaker002:] No. [Jack:] Don't you?... I had a letter from him last week er er a lengthy letter. Well George's secretary at the Cosmopolitan Debating Society after er er Tom Moseley had er died, and er George takes an entirely different view of from me, of the you know. He's more right wing than me, he's a very far, he's a good socialist, he's a very fair man. But he we don't share opinions about the General Strike. He don't think it was, but I I'm sure it was.... I remem remember being with with our newspaper being chased up... up Road, and you know, the police were chasing me, of course I were only young I could run faster then. But in any case I'd chucked all me things in the cemetery, you know, and that's so when they caught up with me I hadn't got any newspapers. I'd thrown them away. [speaker002:] How how did the newspapers at the time respond to the Ge General Strike? [Jack:] Well there were no newspapers. [speaker002:] The newspapers? [Jack:] er well of course they were opposed to everything, working class, there was some er some sympathy from the old Journal, and the Evening News was a lot better course course it was, it was a Liberal paper. And it was pretty Liberal too. Er... but of course there was no newspapers er printed at all then, and I've got, there was a Churchill's Paper, what did they call that? And there was our paper, the British Worker. What did he call his paper? I've got one upstairs. What? [speaker002:] Bulldog was it? Was it Bulldog? [Jack:] No. I've got one of his papers upstairs somewhere. Somewhere I've got it. You know that was i i issued during during the time. The General Strike was a was a great time. Was a great time. They could have gone over the top you know, I think, I'm sure they could, I'm certain they could. I mean you know what happened when,wh when th General Strike was on, there was er nothing entered unless it'd got a permit from a Trades Council, and you know that don't you? Didn't you know that? Oh yeah. When they got to Bridge they, if they hadn't got a permit they they had to go back, the pickets' d be there. The Trades Council it would be. And one of the craziest debates during that time there was whether to allow beer waggons over. W who who you know they they allowed food waggons through, and the the the great debate was was beer food? You know, and they came down that it was food, and they allowed the the beer barrels to proceed over the bridge. you know they were tipping buses and everything up then, you know. [speaker002:] So was much more militant then? [Jack:] was was good then. Mm. [speaker002:] And the Tr how did the Trades Council organize [Jack:] Trades Council was all for it. It was well up, I w I wasn't a second at it. They were a well organized Trades Council. Very well organized. And there was real real militant, they was good.... Aye, and there were very few people caught you know for when the the the particularly buses, which was a blackleg firm, they used to tip their buses over. They'd never let them run from to. People had to get out and they'd turn the bus over time and time. I I've got a paper somewhere that refers to this business, I don't know where. Go on, are you, are you right? [speaker002:] Yeah, I'm alright. [Jack:] Right.... Well Of course came the War and... and er... like for about twelve years like before the War I'd been president of the Hosiery Finishers Association. And then... in nineteen forty two the secretary, the very well known for a number of reasons secretary of the Hosiery Workers, his name was, he was the J P and he was er er I wouldn't say he's a a pillar of the Tory Party but he weren't far off, you, well he died. And er they advertised er for a a secretary. Well I was very reluctant to to to put in for this job, I didn't want to really, but I was you know people said, Put in for it, you won't get it if you put in. And er I thought well I won't really, and I probably didn't like losing anyway you know [LAUGHTER] I I I was never a good loser I don't think, and I thought no I shan't get many votes and I'll look silly I'm not putting in for it. But anyway there was so many people and one chap who he he was, as a matter of fact, he was organizer with Communist Party for whom I've got the very greatest respect, the very greatest respect. Because er his name was Les, and he got er er and the whole family was real militant Labour Supporters at. And his brother... he was in the er... Spanish Civil War, he was an officer, he was a miner, but he left to join the... the Spanish Brigade and er he came back and of course but after the General Strike they wouldn't neither set him nor his brother on the pits you know. And he never got into the pits, so Les and he was er... was a very fine Marxist that he he he could tell you anything you know about Marxism. And and as a matter of fact he if er if ever you went to see him about anything and said, What about this, Les? And he'd say, Well and he'd got a whole string of Lenin's books, and he'd reach down and pick one and turn to the right page straight away, says, This is what Lenin said, and he said, I'll stand by this, you know. But Les was a great great bloke. But he got down the pit, after you know whe after the War. Er they had them all back like when the pits was nationalized, all these people who'd been sacked you know got back on. And so these two brothers, they both got back on, but unfortunately er Les, he was made a full time official of the miners, when he retired, full time official of the miners union. Er but unfortunately Les died. Very great loss to that was. Very great loss. And er but his brother's still alive, and is a retired miner.... Aye. [speaker002:] Do you remember many people going off to the Red Brigade? To the International Brigade? [Jack:] Oh yes, quite a few, quite a few. Now talking bout the Cosmo, I'll come back to that again because there was a lad there and he was in the Independent Labour Party, and er his name was Eric and er this pamphlet will tell you said he answered more questions when he spoke, and at nineteen he was he spoke, he answered more questions than any other speaker had ever answered at the Cosmo you know he got a record for answering questions. But he was a very fine lad. And he were nineteen then, he went and he got killed. Eric, his name should be remembered, but nobody now will know, but he was in the I L P. I tell you he was a very good bloke. And he got killed, oh aye. Lionel, you know Lionel? [speaker002:] In fact I've got to I'm going to interview him. [Jack:] When? [speaker002:] Soon. I've not fixed up the date yet. [Jack:] And where you going to interview him? [speaker002:] I don't know yet, I've [Jack:] At his er at his work? Where he is independent tailor you know. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] Oh I was very, I haven't seen him for a while, being ill you don't, but er, he was always sending messages of good will when I was in hospital. Lionel's a very he he he, you'll enjoy him, he'll be good. He'll be your star turn, you you must see him when you can. But, the best thing to do is to see him at his off where he works, he's a tailor you know that, do you? [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] Good too. I've got lot's of clothes he's made me. [speaker002:] What about Fascism in? Do you remember Fascist meetings? [Jack:] They was never strong in, you'd think it would be in a place like this but they weren't. Er I remember a debate, they'd two debates, there was one on the Market Square and there was one at the Cosmo, between the Black Shirts er and of course the Cosmo platform was open to anybody, didn't matter who they were, any shade of opinion. Er no there was never never really active in. The New Party made some members when they started, but when they turned themselves into the Fascist Party er they they rid of themselves of many of these er New Party peop, was in the New Party you know.... He was a very brilliant man you know. His father was, editor of the Spectator, and there was a very... you know, intelligent family really. But he joined the New Party and so it er he spiked his guns for a long while.... Yes, now then, where are we going. [speaker002:] Talking about the the formation of the National Union. [Jack:] Oh yes, aye, that's right. So anyway I put in for this job and and there were people who who ought to have got it before me, er for instance er there was a councillor at er at, Tom, did you know Tom? Well he was a councillor at and a leader of the labour group on the Council at for ooh about thirty forty years. His father before him was a fine man too, he was a prominent member of the Co-op. And anyway he he was one of the candidates, but what I didn't know at that time there was a real feud between the women and the men. Anything the men wanted the women would oppose, and vice versa. So of course when Tom was put up and er there was about five of us put up for this job, they was all members of that union and I wasn't. I was a member of the other union like the Hosiery Finishers. But because all the men were supporting Tom all the women was in a vast majority was opposed to him and they'd vote for anybody, and it happened to be me you see. [LAUGHTER] They didn't know me. [] And er I got, they'd got about twelve hundred members, and I think I got about a thousand, of course there weren't two of the men that knew and they voted. Er and so I got the job like dead easy you see. I've got an interesting point that I relate about this job [cough] that when I went to see them, about starting this job, they said, Well, they never told me before I got in, they said er, We've er we've got no money so we can't pay you a very good wage, but er we'll start you off with five pound a week, that's all we can afford, well I was earning more than that, during the War, nineteen forty two. And so er I thought well I don't know, you know, I don't know [break in recording] And so I said, saying to my wife, Well, I said er, I've got, I'm going to get involved in bus fares to and from office, and I'd got two kids at that time and I said er, I don't know when Anne said, Well no good, cos she was a good socialist and all, and says, Right, no good letting money stand in the road as it will get by. Here, take it. So I took it, for a drop you see. But there were true to their word [break in recording] Well we we formed the national union that comprised, have have you read any books on that, aye, formed that about nineteen forty... forty five I should think, guess, that'll be it, about forty five. And er then I left them in forty six and went back to me first love, and er it was a little self contained union. I think it was one of the best in the country, and I'm I'm serious about that. Not because I was there, but it was. And then we had a wage structure that was second to none really. We... we had a cost of living bonus when it was practically unknown to have a cost of liv, which we'd had er er since er immediately after the First World War, nineteen nineteen time. We had a cost of living bonus and er our wages rose with the cost of living er every month, not every year. Every month, we got this cost of living, course it didn't er it didn't er fluctuate like it did in more recent years, but it was a safeguard and we always got increases on top of that like piece work increase and and er it it was a it was a good union, it you know. With with we got innovations that no other union, not of it's size, ever had. There was two thousand, we er you know was more than a union, it was it was a first class Friendly Society as well and it was friendly. As a matter of fact er as the years went by we got this benevolent fund and we used to give all the old w as a mat we got a pension fund I know it don't sound much now, but at that time like during and just after the War we paid twelve and sixpence a week pension to all everybody who'd retired from the union after they'd done time, and we also gave them extra grants and took them on er you know outings until a time I said, Well we're spending all this money on outings, we could buy a bungalow at the seaside and let them all go you know pensioners go in their turn free. And so we did this... and we had this bungalow at Mablethorpe which is still running, we've been down, we went down a few weeks ago. And the pensioners go down to this bungalow free, and it's in lovely spot and we gave something like two thousand pound for it. And I was very friendly with the manager's secretary of the Co-op, Cyril at that time who was a big noise in, and er he furnished it for us at wholesale price you know and everything, they furnished the bungalow. Put the carpets, put everything in and er and we paid for it and they still go ad now course the national union's taken it over but when we joined the national union there were two things that er I stipulated before we'd join. And one was that this bungalow should be retained completely er by members of the Hosiery Finishers in spite of being a national union which of course has still operated, and secondly, that er nobody should go to this union until er er at least when I've finished that they should be voted for and they weren't going to impose anybody on this union, they'd vote for somebody from among their own members, which of course operated and that's operating now. See. And er I'll show you a little booklet I've got somewhere on that about the nation about his bungalow. Which perhaps not revolutionary but to me it was er it was but of all these things that er we've done lots of things you know, but the thing that I, that stands out in my memory is is that er it'd be about nineteen forty eight, there was a a one of the old members who I worked with was, lived alone and he was very ill. So I went to see him and the neighbour said to me, Well, I said, God it's cold, I said, Why ain't he got a fire? She said, Well, she said, The truth is you know we keep bringing sticks in and that, but he's got no er... he's got no fire, he's got no coal, he can't he can't make a fire. You know there were only very few electrics, so I said, Well we've got this money in the benevolent fund. So I ordered him a load of coal. I went down to the straight away to the coal dealer and said, Take him a load of coal, and he took him. Well I told the committee and they were delighted and so was I. Er and that's one thing that stands out in my, of course he died, but the point is at least he died with a fire. And er I think that's good you know. I'm sentimental enough to think that's good, and er and er and lots of things like that you know but that th really stands out. I remember the man very well and alone. And I tell you one of my early recollections when I went to school, I'm going back now, was er across the way from where I lived, was a family and their name was, I remember the name although I'd only be about nine. I remember their name. I'd only be nine. And er he and I know where he worked at Brass Foundry on Road, and he fell ill. And he died. And er of course there were no pension, no widow's pension, no nothing at all. And so there was er old age pension, state, there was nothing then you know nothing at all. And so er they had to go to the workhouse you see and I can see it now in this er this cobbled street and this er cab er drawn by a horse of course, hansom cab. And I can see this er this woman with her three children go off to the workhouse and er they was crying but they were waving and then all the neighbours was out waving to them. Now that's er er a recollection isn't it? Going to the workhouse, yeah, this family, mm. [speaker002:] Do you do you remember ever ever having long periods of illness yourself? At all? [Jack:] I I I only had one one illness in my life until last year. And er I had er in nineteen sixteen I had er what they called typhoid fever which now they call enteric fever you know. I had s that for sixteen weeks. And I never went to hospital because me cousin was a nurse who'd er you know got married and so she er proffered to nurse me which she did and er the then er health people in allowed me to stay at home because of this you see and I was at home and er that was in nineteen sixteen. And that's the only illness I that I ever had. [speaker002:] And did you find it difficult managing without without the money, your parents? [Jack:] Well me parents they got they was alright they, you know what I mean, they weren't wealthy but they they... they were they'd always got enough to live on. Me dad had got a decent job for them times, you know he, I think he got thirty bob a week which was a lot of money. But he was alright you know what I mean with the, I never never really knew want, there were lots of things that I wanted and never got of course but I never really, I could never say I wanted, and I never went hungry, not even at any time, you know. [speaker002:] Did your mother work at all? [Jack:] She worked at home, she used to make er bags, you know, er shopping bags, and she was a very good machinist and a remarkable cook and everything. She could do anything, she was a wonderful woman. And er a very devout Christian who never went to to er chapel like in her later years but she was, she was a good Christian lady. Aye.... And she died of a cancer and er so did me father, and probably so shall I, but if a cancer don't kill me summat else will. [LAUGHTER] [break in recording] [speaker002:] Erm you started work [Jack:] at [speaker002:] yeah it's on, you started work at in nineteen thirteen. [Jack:] That's right. [speaker002:] Er how did you go about getting the job? [Jack:] Well jobs were weren't particularly hard to get in nineteen thirteen and er... well in any case me father worked there and he'd worked there many years so i it was the normal thing that you usually followed your father like. Although I wanted to go down the pit because you got more money you see. [speaker002:] In in those day [Jack:] Nearly all my friends were down the pit. [speaker002:] Oh really? [Jack:] Oh aye [speaker002:] Cos I I thought the the pit was quite well known for being a poor poor payer. [Jack:] Well i i it wasn't so bad as where I er as when I went. And they didn't work so many hours, I worked er I don't know whether I told you this last time but er I worked, my normal week was sixty six hours, sixty six hours for five shilling. [speaker002:] Was this when you started? [Jack:] Ah, nineteen thirteen. [speaker002:] So when you started did you receive a wage, rather than piece rate? [Jack:] I I I received, it was, it was, yes that's right, until you get into the job, yeah. Five bob, and then you get on a piece rate. I I must have told you before that what we got... er... we used to turn and bundle two thousand four hundred, I told you that didn't I? [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] Did I tell you that story? [speaker002:] What did erm [Jack:] For sixpence. [speaker002:] What did tu turning a sock actually involve? Why why did the socks have to be turned? [Jack:] Why, because they was dyed on the wrong side. Erm, you see they were dyed on the wrong side you know they were of course it was easier to penetrate than it would be if they dyed them on the right side you see, it was technically i far far superior. And so that's what they did. [speaker002:] So how many departments would there be at at the time? [Jack:] Well there'd be dying and scouring and tacking... sorting, trimming, packing, drying, all kind, you know that that's about total number of departments, brushing. [speaker002:] Would each department have it's own foreman then? [Jack:] Oh yes, oh yes, even if it was a department of only ooh five or six people, there'd be somebody in charge. Always be a charge-hand, foreman. [speaker002:] Yeah, was a, is a, was a charge-hand different to a foreman then? [Jack:] We well a a foreman usually was over more workers than a charge- hand was. [cough] You see you could have a charge-hand over er er two or three people really, he'd be working with them but he he'd be the charge-hand. I mean the chap that the management would come to and say, Well has there's this particular lot of work gone through yet? Or and he he'd know this, that'd be his job as well. [speaker002:] I see. [Jack:] Th th er th did I tell you about er how I how I started at, how I left school? [speaker002:] Taking the Labour Examination? [Jack:] That's right, that's right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Jack:] Er go on, glad I've got that bit. [speaker002:] Yeah so how would the workers, presumably the er charge-hands and foremans were promoted from the the shop floor. How did you feel? [Jack:] Usually pretty fairly. [speaker002:] How did you feel about... pi your own people sort of being transferred into positions of authority, was there much resentment? [Jack:] Er... well n not really because they had to be in the union. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] You see if they wanted to be a foreman he'd still in the union. So it didn't make a great deal of difference really, you know, you you'd still got er some jurisdiction over them even though they were the foreman like. [speaker002:] Yeah and what was your father's job at? [Jack:] Well he he was a a foreman of the sorting room. You know and he was when I started there in nineteen thirteen. And er th th that was it. [speaker002:] How much would he have received for that? [Jack:] Well er I I his wage round about er First World War s commencement fourteen, thirty bob a week, which was a good wage. [speaker002:] Mm. And you you were earning about ten bob a week then? [Jack:] Well at that time I was getting as much as ten bob a week. [speaker002:] S and was that the the whole wage for the whole family or were there other members of the family working? [Jack:] Oh no, no other money coming in, oh no. [speaker002:] Did you have any brothers and sisters? [Jack:] I've got one brother, but he was younger than me and at that time he were going to school anyway. [speaker002:] So was the s the family standard of of living reasonably high in those days? [Jack:] It were reasonable, quite re, er as a matter of fact we could afford to go on ho my father could afford to take us on a holiday every year. [speaker002:] Where about [Jack:] To the seaside. [speaker002:] Whereabouts? [Jack:] Well we the the main place was Cleethorpes, although we was at Blackpool when, in fourteen, when the War started. Went to Blackpool one or or on one or two occasions but me mother suffered with er with her heart and the doctor said, Well don't go to Blackpool again, the air's too strong. So we didn't you see after that. [speaker002:] Yeah. Did your mother work at all? [Jack:] Not until er... when was it, ooh, I think not until er me brother and I were married and her and me father were together and she used to do a bit of homework er making... these er kind of leather bags, [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] you know, sewing the leather bags. [speaker002:] So as as a youth and a child she didn't take, [Jack:] No. [speaker002:] do any work to make end ends meet? [Jack:] Never done any work at all after being married no, never, no. She was a lace mender. [speaker002:] She'd been a lace mender before she married your father? [Jack:] She was a lace mender, yes, that's right. That's right. [speaker002:] Yeah, you just mentioned the Wars, you remember much about the War in in? [Jack:] Well,th I I must have told you because it's one of the things that er stand out that on on the day when they dropped the first bomb in I and I I and it was er it'd be the thirty first of January, but I don't know whether it was er fifteen or sixteen, nineteen fifteen or nineteen sixteen. On that particular day I I was coming home from work and it were quarter to nine, I'd just finished work. And I'd started at six in the morning. And I'd been there from six in the morning till quarter to nine. And there were two of us worked together [cough] a lad my age and myself. And we was walking down Street when a soldier was coming and he said er, You want to er you want to make haste home me lads the Zeppelins are about, you see. Well you know what kids, we kind of laughed at this you know, we didn't take it as serious. So we sauntered home and by the time just when we got home perhaps by you know we'd get home at nine, by quarter past nine er we saw the Zeppelin come over. You could see this Zeppelin. I remember this. [speaker002:] Was this the one that hit Woolworth's, was that cos Woolworth's was bombed wasn't it? [Jack:] Aye, that's right. Woolworth's and er and the water fountain in Street. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] That's right, that's the one. [speaker002:] Did it drop any other bombs or? [Jack:] Er there was er I think there were thr I think there were three killed in Street, three people in a, killed in a house in Street. Er... but everybody in went down to see what had happened like, you know to see Woolworth's. They'd never... you know imagined that anything like that could quite happen so we, [speaker002:] Mhm. [Jack:] well I went down and had a look at it as a kid you know. I remember seeing Woolworth's. With [speaker002:] Did [Jack:] er a tear in it's side. [speaker002:] Mm. Did it upset people or? [Jack:] Not really, I don't think so. It were a talking point but er it wasn't er n nobody seemed unduly perturbed about it. [speaker002:] Mm. Go going back to before the War, erm last time you spoke you mentioned a s strike in nineteen thirteen. [Jack:] That's right. [speaker002:] Erm what how how how did that come about? [Jack:] Well it came about and I believe this man's name was but I wouldn't be too certain, I think it was. And er he worked at. And er it was said that he he was he 'd been away ill. Well when he went back to work er they didn't let him start. And he hadn't been off long, perhaps been off three or four weeks, I I would say. And the boss said, well you know he hadn't got the work for him and and he couldn't start then. And so what happened was everybody downed tools at and come out on strike you see. And er it it got very serious. So after a fortnight, thereabouts, the union had a meeting and decided that everybody in the industry like, which of course there was only about a thousand of us any way, everybody would s would stop until this man could start at work. So that's everybody came out. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] And er but this was a very determined man, everybody knew that, one of these, although he he'd got probably er the the best factory in in the city. Like for quality of workmanship. The workers were good, his machinery was good. But any way he decided to s to take blacklegs. And er he advertised and got quite a few. Not, they weren't members of ours and they weren't er skilled in the trade, but hey were just people who were prepared to work any way and and scrambled through as best they could. [speaker002:] Would they be local people? [Jack:] Oh aye. And er the police used to take them in black marias some of them. Some of them had to walk because you they they couldn't take them in in in any conveyance at all because er it was over what they call the viaducts, you know and the big rushes and reeds, I told you about a chap hitting them didn't I? [speaker002:] Mm. Yeah [Jack:] Hitting somebody on on the head with a brick. Aye. And there was quite a few court cases. [speaker002:] What court cases against the strikers? [Jack:] Yes, oh aye. [speaker002:] Because was there was there much violence? [Jack:] Well there there i they used to s you know invite everybody you said to you know everybody down on the picket line, well we were kids we used to go like re to be quite honest like we went because it were you know a bit of fun really. But there were police on horseback charging them. And I always remember, now whether this is true I wouldn't know, and I don't think I've ever spoke about this before but I, thinking about it just now, it's just struck me, I remember one chap saying, Well now if we put some barbed wire across the road about two foot high, he said, No horse will jump over barbed wire, now I don't know I don't suppose that's true I don't think it is but this chap said that. So they went and got some barbed wire and they strung it across this street you know, Street at. I could remember it but I just couldn't say now whether the police were stopped in their tracks. But there was a lot of police there, there was a lot of of er pickets, you know, ooh aye, six or seven hundred pickets. We and they used to go there when the blacklegs came out. [speaker002:] Yes, so what was [Jack:] And there were three blacklegs lived in er in one house in Avenue. And so every night when they got home there was all kinds of people, I mean you know say miners and anybody as well, they all surrounded this house and when the police brought him in, of course they were booing and all this business you see. Well one night he got really rough and er they they broke these windows.... And at the court I can remember this as a kid, at the court, of course I wasn't in at at the court but I remember the story the blacklegs er picked out people and said they and they and they threw stones you see, through the window. So of course these chaps well I don't wether they were youths and chaps and that denying it. And er I always remember the lawyer who was acting on behalf of the union er said to these blacklegs, How would it be possible for you to see it though your window who was throwing the bricks seeing that the windows are so black and filthy you can't see the curtains that's hanging up from the outside? So you couldn't possibly see who was throwing, er the windows were too filthy. And they got off. Got off.... [speaker002:] Was the was the lawyer paid for by the union? [Jack:] Oh aye, oh aye. I I don't remember but he must have been. And but any anyway we got er, I've probably tell you this before, the Co- op allowed everybody to have er... credit until it was over and there was a n there was a a preacher wh who er and I don't know whether a Baptist or a Wesleyan Preacher, I think he was a Wesleyan, he was a Welshman and his name was.... And er he was he he he you know came and spoke and he was very very good, aye. [speaker002:] Was your family religious? [Jack:] Aye, aye religious, aye. [speaker002:] What denomination? [Jack:] Baptist.... They they when when I was younger used to go regular but they didn't go regular you know as years advanced. but er m anyone ask, I remember me mother was a great Christian really. Although she didn't go to er but me dad did always you know believe in the Baptists. [speaker002:] Was the church very important in the community then? [Jack:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] Particularly? [Jack:] Particularly the Non-conformist. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] Oh yes. Oh yes. [speaker002:] How did you fell about the Church of England and the [Jack:] Well they always er regarded the Church of England as er a little socially and erm politically they'd er erm the Tories of course,m mainly the Church was Tories, and er like in Wales the Non-conformists was er more liberally inclined. [speaker002:] So was there strong connections between the Wesleyan and Baptist Churches and the trade unions? [Jack:] Yes, yes. Well there was between this particular Wesleyan Chapel and er in our street it was, as it's practically opposite the u present union office. [speaker002:] Yeah I think I know [Jack:] You know up the side street but now it's used as a as a store house but you can tell it's a it's an old establishme and and they used to get full you know. The they used to the Non-conformists whether or not I couldn't speak for the Church of England but er there'd be a lot go you know i in the evening there'd be several hundred at every one of these places, and there was, there'd be, ooh four or five Nonconformist places in in. Little place like that. And they'd all get full.... Oh yeah it was very strong. [speaker002:] Yeah, you said your your uncle was a religious man. [Jack:] Me fath me grandfather. [speaker002:] Was it your grandfather? [Jack:] Now he was very religious. He was er... me mother's chief objection to him, it was me father's father, me mother's chief objection was that he was always talking about revolutions [LAUGHTER] and she couldn't stand this you know. And they said, He's alw, ah your granddad's always talking about there's going to be a revolution. But he he'd got a little mission er on the side of the at,, I've I went with him so I saw it. But I I do you know I've been back since but I just couldn't find it now, but there it'll be, but on the side of the er at, he used to preach at this mission, there was only him you know used to preach, and I don't know how many other people were at, it wouldn't hold above er wouldn't hold above thirty. A little tiny place.... But he used to go there, he used to nearly live there and er you know. He was always preaching there, he he he was the man who ran it. Ah. [speaker002:] Was was politics important at at home in your childhood? [Jack:] Well it was for, well me dad was a l me dad was a liberal. Course there wasn't no Labour pen men then you know. But when the first Labour man put up for... for in the area, West, 's constituency now as near as possible. Er put up there, you wouldn't know of would you? [speaker002:] No when would [Jack:] No. [speaker002:] this be? [Jack:] Well, probably nineteen fourteen.... And er... I think it was er... in the election in er perhaps twenty two er got in. Previously they'd always been er very staunch liberal, well know intellectuals, Sir James, and he represented the teachers. That was, that was in that union. Very very er able, capable man, but anyway, and he was in for years, but er beat him. were he he he was a an ex-West councillor. I I don't know whether he went to jail over the job you know, in East and West. And er I I think they they were, most of them went to jail and I think did, but when he came down here... he, he beat. One of his chief claims to fame was that he got about thirteen kids, you know,, but a very very capable bloke. [speaker002:] So... did the Labour Party have staunch working class support in [Jack:] They did yeah. [speaker002:] In then? [Jack:] Oh yeah,be in, and yeah. N nobody strange well this is strange to relate. Nobody ever stood a chance of getting in in unless they were Labour. You know I mean after the... after the the liberals had er... lost the m main support er and the Labour Party came into prominence nobody w w you know you it'd be almost impossible to put up in and. But one one time one man put up and I don't know the reason why and I couldn't tell you the year but his name was er the Honour somebody. And he came he became a prominent Parliamentarian, perhaps in the thirties. But he got in in this, you know they moved moved w w you know would [speaker002:] Mm. He was a barrister [Jack:] A barrister aye probably the greatest that's ever lived you know. [speaker002:] Was he a liberal MP in then? [Jack:] He was a liberal yes. I heard him a few times, he was very very entertaining, very entertaining, nice bloke really. Ah. [speaker002:] Now going back to this this strike erm [Jack:] Yes. [speaker002:] Presumably if if all the finishing companies erm [Jack:] Supported us. [speaker002:] Had had to come out on strike, then er all the workers be on strike fund, er did you and your father receive strike money? [Jack:] Well no no member of the staff came of strike that was the understanding you see. I mean they they stayed in to you know see the work through the processes rather than it all get ruined, because of course you know they weren't er they weren't great er individual capitalists and er capitalistic companies. I mean the bosses hadn't got all that much really, you know, they weren't like they are today. I mean they got a lot better living what we got and and and they was alright but the the... you know you'd never call them bloated capitalists because they weren't bloated really. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] Er about this strike and er but time went on and it became obvious that er nobody were going to win only the boss like this boss, [cough] course he was he was scratching through, and so they called the strike off and every person who worked at er every firm had a meeting and they all decided to take so many and every firm took so many of the workers and so nobody was ever unemployed as a consequence of the strike which was very very good. [speaker002:] Was this a a management decision or a union decision? [Jack:] Union decision. And the union had the meeting and the union went and told the boss that we're having so many more men here and that was it you see. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] And that that's what operated. A very fine thing, and you know until er until the day I left in nineteen forty two... they always referred to these chaps in the forties like say I was, er a as being er, Ooh he's a man. You know or f or or you know always it was that they were men cos they came from during the strike. Mm there's very... [speaker002:] [cough] After the War, well I know you did military service [Jack:] Aha. [speaker002:] after you came back from military service did you carry on working art? [Jack:] Yes, oh aye. [speaker002:] Did you [Jack:] Yes [speaker002:] Was it easy to get your job back? [Jack:] Er ye yes and n no really. Everybody coming from military service... er was er got the job back there were no question about that at all, you got your job back. But... I'll have to tell you a bit of my history. Nineteen er nineteen eighteen I joined the the Army, compulsory you see. And I joined up on March the fourth nineteen eighteen. And er the War ended as you know in November eighteen... and er when the War came to an end the the Government introduced a form of service whereas if er we youngsters volunteered say if you volunteered for two year they gave you twenty pound and two months leave you see, if you volunteered for three year they gave you forty pound or was it thirty, thirty forty, and er three months leave. And if you volunteered for five years I know you got fifty pound for that which was a hell of a lot of money, a year's wage in some peoples' eyes that was you know. And er so er er I said to my friend, like me pals I said, Well look we we haven't been in the Army a year, so we've got to be in two more years before it comes our turn our turn to be demobilized, so we just might as well sign up for a couple year, get two months leave and twenty quid, because we shall do that if we don't. So we did this you see. As a consequence of which... well we went to Egypt and the Sudan this business, we came back and er the b the... the foreman's brother he ne he never liked me ever this forema when I were a kid you know, he never liked me at all, I never got on with him and... and er mind you there's a long story about that but it's a silly little thing that er that I really upset him with.... It'd it'd be no interest to this but er [speaker002:] Go on, go on [Jack:] you see... We was working together and you know a a few benches from each other and of course as I told you the the lads worked with a man. And in the Football Post er cos everybody used to have the Football Post then, not like now, and so everybody knew what was in it and er... there was like a Who and Why column in the Football Post and one of these was, Who will stop County now, you see because they was at top of the second division or something like that, and the team that was next to them was City in them days you see. And so er and somebody wrote back and said to them, A Yorkshire team with the same ambitions you see. Well this bloke this boss's brother er his his his brother was the mayor of for several years, the only one that's been during the War, the First World War,. And he said er, Well ha it isn't in Yorkshire, says, Well er it is, he said, It isn't it's in Lincolnshire. And so we had a proper argument about this, of course he was a grown up man, I were only a kid you know. And er so one bloke brought a map the next day to prove as it was in, he says, He's right it's in Yorkshire. And he never forgive me for this you see because he were a big noise you know, he he'd got a big business in. And er so when I came back after the War he says er, I object to him starting, he's not come f direct from conscription, he volunteered for the Army. So you can't volunteer and then come back like that and... Well that was that. But of course he he was the only one who thought this, everybody else said, Ah how ridiculous, have him back. So that was the end to it you see. Mm. So [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah and so had wages increased in? [Jack:] Ooh aye was wages increased. You know I would think we'd be the first er industry to my knowledge to have a cost of living bonus. And as the cost of living wen went up our wages went up. A but seeing that the official figures were published every month our wages went up or down every month. And and or or remained stationary but they mostly went up a copper or so every... and this was er a real thorn in the side of the employers you know, they wanted to get rid of this and they couldn't. And er when I left, about seventy two, they were still every year they come to try and get rid of this cost of living, but we did er er concede that we'd only move annually. And so the wages went up and down annually like as distinct from monthly, which was a bit of a job for the employers to adjust every month. [speaker002:] When so when was this introduced, [Jack:] [cough] [speaker002:] when was the cost of living intro [Jack:] Oh nin i during the First World War. [speaker002:] Was this did this occur for the whole hosiery industry not just [Jack:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] the finishing? [Jack:] Oh finishing. Finishing er finishing only. [speaker002:] Finishing only. [Jack:] Finishing only, and er... then after a few years the manufacturing side of the industry adopted the cost of living different from ours but they adopted a cost of living bonus in in a degree rather different from our. [cough] [speaker002:] How were the employers persuaded to introduce this through threatened [Jack:] Well [speaker002:] action or or negotiation? [Jack:] Well they never threatened any action on the manufacturing side, they you know the manufacturing side didn't. [speaker002:] Mm. [Jack:] But anyway seeing that we got it and all this business and and er eventually they got it, but they didn't get it in nowhere near a a as good as ours and you know. [speaker002:] Well how did the finishers get it [Jack:] Oh well they got it during the War. When things were pretty easy. I should think at that time the employers thought, Well we don't want to be arguing about wages every five minutes during this War business you know and they all got b you know they got bags of work you know that of course, don't you? No end of work during Wartime, no end of work. [speaker002:] Yeah was this when utility clothing, was was that [Jack:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Was there utility clothing during the First World War? [Jack:] No. No, there weren't, Second World War yeah, but not First World War. Er [speaker002:] So was a lot, was a lot of lot of stuff made for the Army then? [Jack:] Oh yeah, lots of stuff made for the Army and and and they didn't know, I mean the manufacturers s sent the work to the hosiery dye- yards they they didn't know what they were sending or what they got, they just churned it all out and and that was it you know it were I could a lot of things about that. [speaker002:] What were the what were the main major products at the time? Was it mainly just socks and stockings? [Jack:] Well ours was mai ours was was footwear. Ours was footwear. [speaker002:] What about other local companies? [Jack:] Well er... the the majority was footwear er but there was shirts and pants and as a matter of fact there was one small section of gloves, made gloves. And there was a lot of fabric, quite a lot of webbing fabric you know.... You know to be made up into underwear and garments. [speaker002:] And would a all these companies be included under one finishing union? [Jack:] Er all those that finished was in the finishing union, yeah. [speaker002:] How come, how did you get to be involved in the union after the War? [Jack:] Oh well I b, it were, we all had to be in the union anyway and so we used to er we used to go to the meetings a a a you know as youngsters and then when we came back from the Army we'd got to the union meeting as well. And er when it come to the election of a shop steward about in ni nineteen er I think it were nineteen twenty seven, it were nineteen twenty seven er I there were two hundred in our shop and I got elected shop steward, mainly I think because a lot more, most didn't didn't want to be bothered you know but anyway I I and so that's what I retained. [speaker002:] And it was, were you shop steward for the whole factory or just part of the factory? [Jack:] Oh no only, nobody was shop steward for the factory. but he person who was shop steward for the finishing department more or less assumed responsibility for the other shop stewards because the other shop stewards would perhaps only have fifteen or twenty, you know members er under them. [speaker002:] So what areas would [Jack:] I'd got two hundred see. [speaker002:] What other areas would there, would be involved in then? [Jack:] Well th th the auxiliaries would have one shop steward like for brushing and tacking, mending you know there's perhaps only be fifty altogether. And we'd got two hundred and then the dyers they were in their own union er at er at that time they'd perhaps got er er thirty in the dye-house. And we I tell you we'd got a couple of hundred in ours. [speaker002:] So this, you becoming a sop shop steward was was after the general strike. How were you involved in [Jack:] Yes just after the general strike. [speaker002:] Were you involved in the general strike itself much? [Jack:] Er aye but not er not industrially, you know not through the union. Er because of by this time I'd er... joined the Independent Labour Party and er we used to run news-sheets off you see. I'd been to work all day and I'd been and been running sheets off all night. And then gone back to work next morning. [speaker002:] So the hosiery industry didn't come out [Jack:] No. [speaker002:] during the strike? [Jack:] No. And er and although it nobody could ever say that the union was politically motivated er it it's strange to relate that at union meeting when the general strike started and we of course we weren't in the T U C we were too small anyway, although I know that there's been unions with twenty eight members in the T U C now. And er anyway... we eventually er... ah but er the questions used to asked at every meeting, when are we going to come out and er so much so that er they made the secretary who was a J P and a Tory write to the T U C and er say that we prepared to come out when ever they ask us. And they sent back and now this is what they said to us in this letter I remember this distinctly that er if we want you to come out we'll tell you but we regard your factories as our second line of defence. That's what the T U C said. Course they were worried because they they'd bit off more than they could chew, same as you say about this like you see. [cough] [speaker002:] S so how was the str do you remember how the strike was organized in? Was it organized? [Jack:] Oh organized yes, through the through the trades council no doubt about it, trades council organized it. As I've probably told you before the they used they used to meet and meet daily, trades council. And er they used to determine what came through, they used to really, you know what came over the Bridge, all picketed and er they'd want to know what was in the van and everything and if the er trades council said, No it's not coming, it didn't come. [speaker002:] Was there much trouble over over blackleg firms in? [Jack:] Well the not not re not really, the chief er the chief trouble er arose from the bus people, you know that. They was t that tried to be the strike breakers and there was several of their buses turned over you've probably read that have you in the [speaker002:] Mhm, yes. [Jack:] in the news-sheets. [speaker002:] Heard about that. [Jack:] Oh aye. particularly on the road from to. [speaker002:] What was the role of the police during the strike? [Jack:] Oh well the role of the police, well of course they were opposed [LAUGHTER] to the strikers [] but there weren't er quite so many police you see and and the strike movement was strong and so the the the they didn't have a great deal of affect. I mean wh where they, anybody was arrested they mainly got off you know. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] And what happened to him after that? [speaker002:] Er... well he was unemployed for a quite some time... er and he got odd casual jobs... er... and then finally doing... er as late as the second world war he got er he got employment on the railway. [speaker003:] Now did he have any er political or trade union affiliations? [speaker002:] He had er some er trades union er some trades union experience.... Er er he did attend his er the union branches,q er quite regularly. But he didn't have er... he didn't have any official er position within the union branch. [speaker003:] And was he politically active or anything? [speaker002:] Er... not really, no, not really that er... er political activity was left er to my mother.... [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] She was er... she was politically acti active, er for the Labour Party. [speaker003:] Could you tell me a bit about that? Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And erm... what kind of things was she involved in then? [speaker002:] Well she was er very prominent in the er Labour Party War Organization, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] that old day they had a fairly er strong... er War Organizations locally, and she was er she was fairly active in there.... [speaker003:] And do you remember any experiences of your mother at election time or anything like that? [speaker002:] Er well yes. Er,... er... the main means of propaganda of course in those days was er leaflet and er street meetings.... Er and I well remember er... even as early as nineteen nineteen... the election which took place immediately after world war one, I remember being... er sort of dragged round the streets,... you know, er... I think it was enjoyable, I don't know... er by my mother, er attending these street meetings,... er... I I I very well remember it because I had a a a new coat, a new coat for for er for this particular venture,... and er the two things you know are fairly deep in my memory. [speaker003:] Now,... how did your family cope with your mother being sort of politically active, what did you how did you manage?... [speaker002:] Well, fairly well, fairly well. Er... erm, my older brothers... er they took an active part, immediately i in the early twenties. So it didn't seem to be of any hardship to to anybody for for the mother to be involved in er political activity. [speaker003:] Mm. Did your father play er a role in? [speaker002:] Er no no, he er er he did... er become an individual member of the Labour party at that stage, but he er he he didn't he didn't take er er an active er or organized part in it. [sniff]. [speaker003:] Now could you tell us a little bit about your brothers and sisters? How many did you have,? [speaker002:] Well, I had my older brother, [sniff], er... he won some sort of a scholarship I remember, he became er... er part-time attendant at the er part-time attendant at the er university. Er [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] It didn't do him a lot of good [] in the early er in the early days, but er it did stand him in good stead later of course because... he became er er a full-time official o of the er Notts area N U M. [speaker003:] This was wasn't it? [speaker002:] He was indeed. He he was one them, but who was er victimized in ninet after nineteen twenty six. He spent all his working life up until nineteen twenty six... er at the local Hucknall Colliery, but after twe er er twenty six, er he was victimized, he was dismissed, and was unable to get employment in the er in the industry, until er the latter thirties, middle thirties. After which he became a branch official and er and er subsequently became a er a full-time area official. Er another brother in the in twenty six, he he took another course of action, he he he cleared off and er he went to he went to live in Australia.... Er... another brother he... er subsequently became a er er a Labour county councillor, but that er that was after the second world war, er after he had er after he had er done war service. But I'm quite sure his earlier associations within the family, er you know helped him in er in his endeavour to become a county councillor after the er after the second world war.... Er well that leaves me.... I also er I did have a sister [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] and subsequently she was much younger. She she she went to Australia. [speaker003:] And your elder brother you talked about at some length was Les, was it?? [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker003:] Er, and what about erm political affiliations? They're all you mentioned one was a county councillor, what about Les what w he was involved with. [speaker002:] Ah,L L Leslie, yes, he he he did a tremendous amount of work for the er er for the L Labour party. Er, he was indeed for some time the er secretary of the er er divisional Labour party. Er, among other things. But er he did a fair amount of educational work, organizing er educational classes and so on. Er, so much so he was er able to... er... organize local weekend schools to which er people like Hugh Gaitskell, er would come and er give a couple of lectures, er Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon. Er, John, another one. Er... he was also closely associated with the National Council of Labour Colleges, who did indeed [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] help in the organization of er... of these weekend schools.... But er... immediately prior to the second world war, he did er he did er join the communist party.... [speaker003:] Now, so he was a p a n a political influence on you was he, er at some time? [speaker002:] Er, well it was all mixed up, it was all mixed up, the funny thing is, er whilst he was many years my senior,... [LAUGHTER]... er I joined the communist party before he did. So er er th th there were some er quite substantial er discussions and debates which er which er which went on in the family over the years of course. [speaker003:] Now erm, tt could you just talk a little bit just about your you know y your background as a child? What what school did you go to? [speaker002:] I went to a local er er council school. [speaker003:] What was that called? [speaker002:] That was er er Boys' School. [speaker003:] And do you remember much about that? [speaker002:] pardon? [speaker003:] Do you remember much about that school?? [speaker002:] Er well, not a lot. I remember there was er... er about forty eight of us in the classes, that er that went on. There was a very very strict er a very very strict discipline. Er... looking at it from today's standards, there was little [cough] er little recreation. You know... er little physical recreation. [cough]. [speaker003:] And what do y what sort of examples can you give about discipline then, harsh discipline? What what what sort of things went on? [speaker002:] Er... well er I d I remember the er in the infants, er in the infants section it was necessary for to er for to touch y touch your hat, touch your little cap, er when the er when the headmistress when the headmistress er went by. Er and I think that somewhat sums it up. You more or less stood to attention. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] Now erm... did you stay in the same school or? [speaker002:] More or less, yes. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er, the school had its infants department, and er intermediate and so on you see. [speaker003:] And you went on and left school at what age? [speaker002:] Fourteen.... [speaker003:] And what did you come to do then, when you erm [speaker002:] Er, well [speaker003:] left school? [speaker002:] of course, jobs were at a premium then. Er, I got a job er in the butchery trade. Er, which er I suppose I was there for... for six years. But, many of these, er many of these jobs of course as far as the young people were concerned were dead end jobs. You got, nineteen twenty, twenty one, and that was it, they didn't want er they didn't want adults. Er you know they they only wanted er re really junior people. [speaker003:] Now before we talk a little bit about that, I'll j can I just take you back erm a couple of years and ask you er what your memories are of the general strike? What do you remember about that? [speaker002:] About the general strike? [speaker003:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] Er,... one was er one was food. Er,... at midday, at midday,w we er... er we reported to one of the local chapels. Er the majority of the local chapels were were w were responsible for er organizing soup kitchens for the kids, er S it didn't apply Sundays, it didn't apply Sundays. We got er a meal, mostly soup and a piece of bread,... er at midday. Er... the chapel I attended was er the Baptist chapel on er on Road. Er as I say, it [cough] the majority of it was soup, but on one occasion during the week, we always had er... er some sort of mincemeat, er potted meat sandwiches and tea.... And er I can taste the tea now. Er, it it had a peculiar taste with it. I don't know exactly what it was, but er er it was potted meat sandwiches er and tea. Now the other one, the other [speaker003:] Were you at school normally? During the strike? [speaker002:] Oh yes, we were at school. Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er the other one... was towards the latter end of the strike... and er this particular area, the Notts area,... er had what was called broken away from the er from the main body er of the strike.... There were some er some er miners in Notts who were persuaded er to go back to work. Er, as against the decision of the er of the union. And of course this created this created a a tr a tremendous problem, because er these few people that went to the er odd pits were in need of er a very strong police escort.... And there were hundreds of police who were... drafted into the into the town,... er billeted on the er local pubs, er and so on. And d it was the duty of these police to protect these er er these people, these scabs as they were called,... er and escort them from their homes to the pit, and see them back. See them back home. Er and I remember er er a a very vivid occasion of being on Road, which is close by the er Hucknall Colliery about three o'clock time, when er a couple of these er er people were being escorted back towards the centre of the town, after they'd done er a day's work... and there were lots and lots of er er er people about, men and women, who were shouting and jeering, at er at er at these at these people, who had been er who had er er violated the union decision and gone to work.... And there were quite a large collection of police who stood in reserve up one of the side streets. And er anyway, the situation was getting out of hand, and er the man in charge, the the the the superintendent, whoever he was, he gave the signal that these that these reserves should er should clear the street to make way for the to make way for the scabs.... And er they drew their truncheons, that I'd never seen before, policemen with truncheons, er and they started to run... and everybody else started to run, and I forgot there was a puppy dog, this puppy dog it it chased it chased towards the er p policemen, and started er barking and d and carrying on, and one of the policemen did no more than thump it straight across the top of the head with a with a truncheon, and er and that was the end of the puppy. Well everybody everybody really... er began to scamper. Er, people would try front doors to see if they could get in front doors, but no,... and they dived down er er er entrances between the between the houses and so on.... Er, and all in all, it was quite er it's quite it was quite an experience, er er to have seen er this this er this police er er baton charge,... er and er we were fortunate enough in in being able to to to get out of the way. Those are the two e are the two experiences the the question of food and the f er the s the soup kitchens, and the er er police protection for those who er er went to violate the decisions er of the union. [speaker003:] Now about these these people, these blacklegs, what were they, were they local people, or were [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [speaker003:] they people drafted in? They were local people then? [speaker002:] They were local people, yes. [speaker003:] And what was the attitude over and above, other than obviously coming in and out of work, what was the attitude of the local neighbours and whatnot towards them? [speaker002:] Well er th er this is one of the misfortunes er is it not, you see, this bad feeling. This bad feeling er lived on into old age. Lived on into old age.... Er [speaker003:] ... What were the kind of conditions of the people who w who went back in, did they go in... bec because of they had, erm say large families or something like that and they had difficulty trying to make ends meet? [speaker002:] Er... I don't know whether that I don't know whether that was a factor, er er er looking back er er I wouldn't know. But there was a a I know there was a a system in Notts you see whereby... er... the coal was dug on the basis of contracts between the management and er a man or two men [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] and these two men would employ half a dozen other men, you see, and whether w whether it was for to to to to get a foothold in the future for to be one of these contractors or not, I j I just don't know. You see. [speaker003:] Now what about your own family, how did you manage, how did you make ends meet with the er four children? [speaker002:] Well we were fortunate, we were fortunate.... Er, in so far that my father had been dismissed from the er from the coal mining industry, er before just before nineteen twenty six,... and he was officially unemployed. So the family, we as a family were better off... than the majority of er of families... er in so far that er er whilst we were a a fair sized family, we did have at least some income, in the form of unemployment pay er that my father received. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er,... my brothers brothers er older than me who were indeed er boys working in the pit, they didn't get, they didn't get any relief, or er any income. [speaker003:] Did they did [speaker002:] Except [speaker003:] they or you have to get any c casual work, I mean y sort of part-time little jobs? [speaker002:] Er [speaker003:] ? [speaker002:] Yeah, well, er they did a little bit of er... pea-picking. They went to Spalding area, pea-picking.... And one or two er little odd jobs like this er for er... for the summer period, but er obviously these harvest jobs er didn't last very long. But there was a movement, there was a movement, because these single men had no income whatever,... and there was a demonstration of er of these er single men, they marched to the workhouse, er in Baseford. Er, the city, not the city, the the Baseford Hospital. Er they they they marched, you see they'd no income, they'd nothing. They they marched to the er to the workhouse, demanding that they should be taken in, you see. Er, on the basis that er that er that er they were destitute.... But they were not allowed in because.... A they couldn't er they couldn't get er th they couldn't provide accommodation for all the hundreds that they were, you see. And B of course er the political set up was such that they were not interested... er in helping er the miners over this er over this particula particularly difficult er period. [speaker003:] And why do you think was that? They di they didn't want to feed those on strike, they wanted to try and get them back to work did they?... [speaker002:] Er, yeah, well, one one can appreciate in er in in circumstances of real hard struggle, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the likes of which the twenty six strike was, you see, there there was no er there was no holds barred. [LAUGHTER].Y your political affiliation was either one way or the other, and er er er you didn't er you didn't m mince words about it, did you not, I mean you [LAUGHTER]. You didn't show you didn't show any er er either any enthusiasm or sympathy for the other side. [speaker003:] Now what about other members of the of your family? Were they active in in organizing in, in participating in the picketing and this kind of thing,? [speaker002:] Yes, oh yes, they were er they were involved. So much so of course that er that er the the elder brother, he was er he was er a branch official by this time, twenty six, at the er Hucknall Colliery, the local colliery, and of course when the strike er was over, er that was the end of he as far as working in the in the coal mining industry in this particular area, that was the end of it. They er... they just had their blacklists and er and er that was it, you you you were out, and you weren't going do er, you know, you were not allowed to have another job.... [speaker003:] Now I don't know if you remember anything... about the nine days of the General Strike, as opposed to the s sort of the whole miners' strike in that year. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Do you remember anything special about [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] those nine days? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] In comparison to? [speaker002:] Yeah, well er yeah, there was there was er one er... er course er er we kids w looked upon er er these activities w with some with some interest you know?... Er for example it was better than going to school.... And... th the local there was a local brewery, now I I can't quite remember which brewery it was, during the er during the General Strike,... they er they decided to er to send out barrels of beer. Er [LAUGHTER]. Obviously to the to one of their pubs.... And the vehicle got as far as Hucknall Marketplace,... er... and that was it. The it was halted there,... and er all the barrels of ale were were were [LAUGHTER] were rolled off, [LAUGHTER] we were rolled off the vehicle.... And er... they were just [cough] they were just in the in the act of of of tapping of tapping a couple of these barrels, and er i it was unfortunate that the that the police showed up.... So consequently,... th there was no er [cough],the [cough] there was no free beer. But I ve I ve I very well remember that one. Er... I remember too er... there was some attempt made to stop a train, which er which was run... er on what was then known as the Great Central Line, that runs through, that runs through Hucknall.... Er I know that there was quite a business about this, but er I wasn't an eyewitness, er and I didn't er I'm never so sure that er I I didn't get the I didn't get the details right.... Er it seems it seems that there were a lot of students, from one of the bigger un er er top class universities... which were handling this train,... er... but er there were quite a few er things done, some of them I would think dangerous.... But er apparently, er this train whilst it was halted, it was halted locally, but after a while it er it er it did get away, and it proceeded towards er towards er Sheffield. What happened above... er above Hucknall er I just don't know.... [speaker003:] Now... if we er if we can just move on move on back to your... tt starting your working life, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm, and y you er said that you that you started work in a butcher 's. W did you have a proper apprenticeship? [speaker002:] Not re No. No. [speaker003:] No proper training? [speaker002:] Oh no, no. [speaker003:] And what were y What were the kind of jobs that you were expected to do then?... [speaker002:] Well, er there was er... er keeping the place cleaned, er there was er... doing deliveries work, there was er the making up of er certain items, sausage, er etcetera, er and you were also ex expected to help in the er in the slaughterhouse. Er and you sort of er er a general labourer actually, but you picked up some knowledge, some knowledge of the of the er business. [speaker003:] What er what sort of wages were you getting for that? [speaker002:] Well the wages then was er w started at er ten shillings, ten shillings a week, that's fifty P a week, you see. [speaker003:] And wh how did that compare with other lads of your age? Was that good or bad? [speaker002:] Oh er now th that was that was that was pretty poor, er... probably employed in the co-op in those days, would would have attracted er er er a fourteen shillings, er nearly half as much again. Er, perhaps in the mining industry, you would have got er thirteen shillings, something like this. [speaker003:] And what sort of hours did you have to work then? Shop work, is that a long, how long a day would you have? [speaker002:] Oh hours, it was er it was er six er six full days a week,... seven in the morning to six at night that is. Er.... [speaker003:] Now, er if we could come on a little bit, erm, tt when was it that you became sort of officially politically active, when you actually joined... er joined the party? [speaker002:] Oh well that would be the er... I was a member of the er I was a member of the trades union whilst I was in this private distribution. There weren't many others, er perhaps only four more er in the in the town, but we were associated with the with the er branch which looked after the interests of the co-op employees.... Er... but er political affiliations,... er serious political affiliation, that that would start about nineteen thirty one, or perhaps nineteen thirty two. [speaker003:] And and what did you join? [speaker002:] Well I joined the I joined the Young Communist League at that stage. [speaker003:] And er if we could just go into a little bit about, this was in Hucknall? [speaker002:] This was in Hucknall, yeah. [speaker003:] . What what... erm... what sort of activities did you organize then, what sort of thi events did you? [speaker002:] Well we did er we did a fair amount of er er leaflet er distribution. Er,... there were one or two of us, not many... we helped the er Communist Party branch proper, in their campaigns for er council elections, er sales of the er of the Daily Worker, as as as it was known er in those days. Er,... we had a fair amount of activity supporting the s marchers... of the er unemployed. Er, I would think we made ourselves generally useful. Probably too much so on the political side,... in so far that er er looking back, it seems that w w we were isolated from other young people, in so far that we were associated with straight political er activity and er straight political movement. [speaker003:] Mm. Well why w would why would you say that, what what s what s was your sort of membership, where from what groups of people did you draw your members from? [speaker002:] Well, they were much the same, local workers. Er, a couple of lads who were who were unemployed, er... we were never able to break in the mining industry, at this particular stage. We were never able to er we were never able to get young miners... er in these... in the very early days immediately after nineteen twenty six onwards, to er to... er to be associated with the er Young Communist League.... [speaker003:] And why do you think that was? Was it was it or would you say it was? [speaker002:] Well er this wa this was this was this was very clear, this was very clear you see. When you look back, when you look back... you see, erm, understand... that after nineteen twenty six, at the local pits,... if you if you took a watch, if you took a watch to work with you,... so that you're in a position... to know the time, and tell the other people what the time was, you see, you were running the serious risk... of losing your job. Now this, this may [LAUGHTER] this may appear [LAUGHTER], this may this may may be a this may appear to be a a a something farfetched, might this. This is exactly what the situation was. Because they developed a system... of mining, whereby... once once it was... the the the task had begun to clear the coal face... of a certain er a certain area of coal,... it didn't matter what what happened during that particular period of time, whether all the machinery broke down, etcetera, etcetera,... you had to stop u until that amount of coal had been cleared off, you see. And they were not having anybody in the mine, with a watch, who could let people know exactly what the time was, and in other words, create a situation where the men might go home before they'd completed this particular task. But that that indeed er was the situation.... Er so much so, you see that er er er people who did have employment in the industry would not, would not be seen talking to left-wing Labour party people, or members of the Communist party, because they readily understood, you know, that here was a risk that they were running, whereby they may indeed lo er er lose their employment.... Er and so the therefore you see, these are some of the reasons why w... we were unable to get close to the er er er younger members, who were or or or the younger people who were employed in the coal industry. [speaker003:] Now, [speaker002:] However, the situation was changed later on.... [speaker003:] Er... what was your relationship with people, as you say, on the left in the La in the Labour party? With the Labour party generally? Or w or and with the youth in the I L P and the Labour [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] party with their youth sections, what was your relationship with them? [speaker002:] Well the funny thing was that er the local Labour party... n didn't have didn't have a youth er a youth section.... It were shame, it were shame that those who would er have been the youth section in [cough] in the Labour party locally were we people, who were who were in the Youth Communist League, you see. Er... but the relationship with the er with the Labour party, and particularly the left in the Labour party, was not er was not too bad at all. Was not too bad at all, because... er d d d everybody was inv involved in some sort of endeavour, either er er through the unions, or through the... er demonstrations against unemployment, you see, so there there was indeed er a a certain coming together. Er when the election, local elections were on of course, er er er [cough] i we were n not quite so friendly to each other, because er each had got candidates er contesting for the er for the same er for the one er particular seat. [speaker003:] How wh what sort of how... how did that feel, then er er one minute you were fighting together on er an unemployed [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] demonstration, and the next minute you were fighting against [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] one another, what er wh did that cause any personal antagonism? [speaker002:] Er, only in very very odd cases. Only in very odd cases. Er... I don't think er... the L on the left it didn't much matter, on the left it didn't much matter, er er er er the right-wing types were probably not so er not so very happy about the situation. [speaker003:] Now, you've you've talked about these activities, erm,. [speaker002:] And wi and parliamentary-wise, you see, [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] there was a er a fairly good er... fairly good er M P, a fellow named Seymour Cox.... Er, he was not a brilliant orator, er but er by and large he was er he was er he he he was he he was a pretty good and well respected er member of parliament. [speaker003:] Erm,... if we can just talk a bit about the the the activities, the question of the demonstrations against unemployment, what did you actually do to to aid those demonstrations? Were these the national marches as well as local ones? [speaker002:] Oh yes. The national marches er the the er the Yorkshire the Yorkshire contingent... er would come through here. Er... and when the Yorkshire contingent didn't come through here, you'd get the er er er Notts er contingent, which er would join up with the Derbyshire contingent, er a wee bit a wee bit lower down, wee bit lower down the er er down the country, so er in every er in every er activity against er unemployment, they'd the locals who were who were obviously involved. [speaker003:] And what sort of things did you actually do to help the national hunger marchers then? What practical support did you give them? [speaker002:] Er... well we'd er er distribute the leaflets, we'd er do what was known as the whitewashing, in other words, er er er whitewash slogans, whitewash times of meetings,... whitewash the announcement of er er times of arrival, er and things of this character. [speaker003:] And what about their accommodation and things like that, did you or or the food, did you do anything like that? [speaker002:] Er invariably the co accommodation was er was provided in the in the local halls, there were two local halls in those days, but er primarily the public hall,wi that was the local council hall. Er, this er provided the er this provided the accommodation. They all slept there, you know, they s th they they they slept rough.... But it was warm, er and er meals were provided for them. [speaker003:] And do you have any specific memories of er the hunger marches? Because it must be thirty two and thirty six, mainly you'd be talking about wouldn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. Early thirties, yes. [speaker003:] The two main ones. And what Do you have any sort of memories that you can... describe of of the marches in... coming to? [speaker002:] Er... I remember one I remember one demonstration, we were able to er... we were e employed you see, er we we didn't we didn't participate in the er in a national march, but what we were able to do on one occasion was er to raise enough money for one or two of us, for to er go to London by the train, and er be in Hyde Park when er the er the various contingents from e er from various areas er of London, marched er marched into er marched into Hyde Park.... And er... it was quite er it was quite something you see... to see these er thousands of er of er and they were well-disciplined, er in demonstration, with banners, with their elected leaders at the front, march into er march into er er Hyde Park, er they had bands playing, they had er er perhaps er fifteen or sixteen platforms, you know from which the er... various working class leaders er er spoke, to I don't know how many people,wh who er who who would be in H Hyde Park on on on on er on this particular day. But er... as much as anything, that in itself was er er one of the ai you know one of the er high points that the er I remember of this particular period. [break in recording] [speaker003:] Hyde Park erm was it to see the arrival of the hunger marchers, can you remember what year that was? [speaker002:] I can't no, I can't. [speaker003:] And er [speaker002:] Er... it could have been thirty two er er er. [speaker003:] Now... can you remember any of the local initiatives, or any of the local activities that took place against unemployment? What what sort of things that went on.... [speaker002:] Erm... well there was er there was the local organization for the unemployed, the national union, the er national unemployed workers' movement. They they had a very strong well-organized er well-organized branch locally. Er... and these people er understood what could be got f er... what little bits could be got out of the er various unemployment er acts, and er... this knowledge, er plus the pressures and feelings that were able to be brought to bear, I'm quite sure did er did benefit many er many people who who were unemployed. Er, for example, er whilst people w were getting what er the unemployment act said they should have, er this pressure was er I'm quite sure, able to get some additional er benefits even if it was er only in kind, er from the from the local authorities. [speaker003:] Now wh erm... can you remember any of the sort of i initiatives, I mean did anything take place in Hucknall?... [speaker002:] Er... not beyond not beyond the er... the marketplace the er marketplace meetings. Er, summertime, good weather,... the these meetings were a feature of er the you know the political lie, er in the wintertime, similar meetings and activities were undertaken er in the public hall, er in in in the local hall.... But er er exact er victories if you [LAUGHTER] in that respect, it's hard to it's hard to say whether they were any. [speaker003:] And er how how many people did you get at at these street meetings in the marketplace? [speaker002:] In the public i in the marketplace? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Ooh, round about er three hundred. Yeah. Oh yes, it was, you could get a meeting there, you could get a meeting there. And there was interest, there was heckling, there was er er er etcetera etcetera, you see? And it had been known that er the Tories that the Tories through the medium of er the economic league, you know, their their propaganda organization, the economic league, which was er which was substantially supported by the by the coal owners [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. Yeah. [speaker002:] obviously, er they th they'd been known they'd been known to come, er and try and have a meeting. They they usually didn't finish it, but er they started, [sniff] so er there was a fair amount of er of er of er interest in the marketplace. [speaker003:] Now you you told me er er before about this er the unemployed used to gather weekly in in in the in the public hall, what [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] was this? What what took place at these meetings? [speaker002:] Well, they would have a er they would have a singsong, they would have er their own er er local artists, you know, er [speaker003:] What would that be, not just sort of Play School songs, it would be anything would it?. [speaker002:] Anything, anything, anything. Oh yes, yes. Anything.... Er instrumentalists, local instrumentalists... but er overall of course it er i i i i it was the er er unemployed workers' organization. [speaker003:] And was there any sort of political activities organized then?... Erm, meetings or classes or anything like that? [speaker002:] Yes, there was er... a fair amount of er straight political er er education. Er, for example classes were, my mother organized some classes, other people organized classes. Er... for example, I remember in, a couple of miles down the road, in the er Hall,... there was er there was weekly classes on er among other things on Marxian economics, you see.... We had no money in our pockets, but er we're talking about er er er economics, and Marxian economics at that [cough], er and funnily enough the chap the chap who did that, er Bert, he was unemployed, he was he was one of the fellows from Derbyshire who was victimized in Derbyshire.... Er, he was a lecturer, and er er a couple of fags and he was a couple of cigarettes and he was he wa he wa he was er quite well quite well er r rewarded. But he, he became he became the area secretary, of the Derbyshire miners er Derbyshire miners organization. Er, and you've got er you've got er political er educational classes, similar to this, both in Hucknall, er and in the and in the surrounding area.... [speaker003:] And did you, even though you were employed, did you actually participate? [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes yes. Er,... of a Friday evening, of a Friday evening, er I would attend er er a national council of labour colleges lecture, a fellow named u u us us used to run this one. Er,... and then [sniff]... er I also attended er er political discussions and lectures which were laid on er by the communist party as well. [speaker003:] And this went on for years this? [speaker002:] Oh yes, over a long period. Over a long period. [speaker003:] Now, what about your your life outside of work, and outside of political activity, did you have much leisure activities? [speaker002:] Er... not really. I er I was a keen cyclist.... Er, mind many people, many people relied on the cycle er for to get about you see. Er if we attended if if we were due to attend a meeting for example in in in Derby, er er... twenty mile away? Er, well, you went on a bike, you see. Er er if if you er er if you attended were to attend er a meeting in Nottingham, you went on your bike, or Mansfield you see. Er... and apart from them, I was er I was er I was a fairly er keen er cyclist, and did er did a little bit of camping too. But er [speaker003:] Right. Where did you used to go? Why what did you used to do? [speaker002:] Er... well we had a camp, the Youth Communist League had a camp down at er a place called Lamley Dumbles,... that was er that was not far er not far from Colliery. Er... quite a successful camp that, quite a successful camp. [speaker003:] Er what sort [speaker002:] fifty or sixty er er of a weekend, you know who who would attend, who would attend that. [speaker003:] And what sort of things did you get up to? [speaker002:] Er... well we had er... er... a very fine er er wind-up gramophone, and we had some marvellous records. Some er some very good erm records I should say decent music. Er... [speaker003:] What do you mean by that, decent music? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] What do you mean by decent music? [speaker002:] Well, er you'd get er light opera, and er er and er you know Gilbert and Sullivan and and and and and [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and this sort of thing.... Er which was er which was always er which was always enjoyable. [speaker003:] Mm.... [speaker002:] Er... apart from, you'd get a ramble, you know y y you'd go along for for for for a ramble, er my most most of the time was er made up er by er cooking your grub, you know? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Messing about with the wi wi with the er food. [speaker003:] Now, what about other things? I mean did you ever have time for dances, and going to the pictures and that kind of thing, I mean you must have found some time? [speaker002:] Er, well that that kind of thing, that [speaker003:] As a young man. [speaker002:] that was always a question of money, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you know, and er you just didn't er you just didn't have er er y you may get a cinema once a week, or perhaps a dance once a week, but that er that wa that was the limit, you know. [speaker003:] But you ma you managed to fit in some other sort of [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] social life over and above it, as a sort of relax, you know, [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] yeah? That was what I was trying to get at. And then you know so l try and bring that on,y you erm you got married in the thirties, [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] and how did you get round to to meet your wife then? [speaker002:] Well she was er er she was involved with er er the cooperative youth organization, known as the er Co-op Comrades Circle. Er, and all all of these organizations, you see, one way or another, their paths crossed and er erm people met people this way. [speaker003:] And can you remember how exactly you met your wife?... [speaker002:] Er... I don't know, er I don't know I'm not er I do er I had this brother, I had this brother, and he was er he was a lecturer you see, and he was supposed to g go to West Bridgford to talk to this Co-op Comrades Circle on the problems of the Saar. Er I I don't know whether you know about the Saar? [speaker003:] That that the area in Germany you mean? [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Between France and Germany you see. And he sent me to tell them he couldn't come, you see. [LAUGHTER]. Er and i something like this. [speaker003:] And so you met your wife there? [speaker002:] , aye. [speaker003:] Erm, and how long was it before you got married? [speaker002:] I don't know really, I married in er... early thirty six, er er er [speaker003:] Now, your your wife wasn't a member of the communist party? [speaker002:] She was by this time. [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker002:] Er [speaker003:] Wha what did she think by er she was a member before she got, before she married then? Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] Er so she was she wasn't bothered at all about your er [speaker002:] Oh no no no, no no. [speaker003:] your activities when you first started. So how did you er manage when you first got married then? Did your wife work at all? [speaker002:] Yes, well she she er she did a bit of work and er we lived [speaker003:] What what job did she do? [speaker002:] in a comparatively comparatively cheap er cheap little flat, with er some other party members you see. So we were [speaker003:] Whereabouts Hucknall? [speaker002:] this was in ba the exact centre of Hucknall. Er near the marketplace, overlooking the marketplace. But of course er that's gone now, that that's all gone now, and by one means or another we were able to er to er live comfortably, anyway. [speaker003:] And your wife was from West Bridgford originally, was she? [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well she lived down there, but she originates from Derbyshire,. [speaker003:] And w er... did sh you said she got some work, what what job did she do then to help? [speaker002:] Erm, mostly of a domestic nature.... [speaker003:] And you were still working in the butchers' at this time? [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] That's right.... Now, er if we could come on now, it was in nineteen thirty six that you went to Spain? [speaker002:] Well, it was thirty seven. [speaker003:] Thirty seven was it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Erm,... now can you tell me about how you how you decided to actually, you know why you decided to actually go to Spain... in the first place? [speaker002:] Well er you see, the b the the the political background, er... played a very important part,... er... and the fa and the struggle against fascism... in this er... early thirty period, was er was really something. Er... it's difficult for people to appreciate today er... the amount of political activity that took place during this early thirty period, and it's pe difficult for people to appreciate the political understanding that did exist over this period. And not only political understanding, but... political determination to do something about it.... And the er the er struggle of the Spanish people r really captured the imagination... of er huge sections of the er of the majority of the people er er in Britain. And you'd got you'd got a tremendous buildup you know of er of enthusiasm, of determination you see, er and obviously er people wanted to give er expression to their support to the maximum. Er people quite a f few people went to er er went to Spain.... Bef before I went, er I er quite a few of my friends went. You see, and it's er it er it's this j this background you see which er er... er convinced people that er they ought to you know help the Spanish people in a real, serious, and er and personal capacity. Because they'd got a tremendous struggle on, they'd got a tremendous struggle on, they were struggling against tremendous odds,... they were struggling against er er all sorts of er er of er of trickery, that er was being conducted by quite a quite a few of the er quite a few of the major powers. And it was this background you see that er that er th th that gave me at least the need for to to play some some part in [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] helping along the struggle against er er against fascism. [speaker003:] Now did you go with friends?... Did you go with you know your friends and comrades at the time? [speaker002:] Well, I er er I picked up I picked up er I picked up people in London, but [sniff], locally locally er I went er individually. I went on my own. [speaker003:] How did you know people had gone before you though?. [speaker002:] Well we got letters back, we [speaker003:] Yeah. Your [speaker002:] . [speaker003:] your friends had gone, though, you had gone. [speaker002:] Oh yes yes yes. Er in fact in fact, a a c a couple of them are o er b were killed there.... Er er one from Mansfield, er one from Nottingham. [speaker003:] Now can you tell me a bit about you your your journey down there? [speaker002:] Er we were well it it it was fairly well-organized, it was fairly well-organized it was er. [speaker003:] Well how, you you got to London did you? And then? [speaker002:] Yeah, you're in need of er you're in need of er getting to London. Er, and to get to London, probably the local people would help raise the er would help raise the fare, but having er... er having got to London, er you contacted the organization, er... you would then... took a er weekend ticket, took a weekend ticket to er to Paris. This was a, you know, a return er a return ticket. Cost about one pounds twenty five, or the equivalent of one pounds twenty five P. But er you got to Paris, you got an address in Paris, they gave you a bed, couple of meals [speaker003:] Now who who ga who supplied the money? Were you given the money or did you have to pay for that yourself? [speaker002:] Oh no, you er... they er provided the ticket, you see, they provided the ticket. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh there was no such thing if they gave you the money, you might nip off. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] No, they they provid they gave you the tickets you see. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] How we got there, er you you you got er you got some food, ad you got a bed for er for a couple of days. Er, you then had got another ticket, and er... train ticket, and you went to the south of France by train,... and er... you got a bed and a couple of meals there er then you had a bus ride.... They provided a bus, you had a bus ride and you picked up a couple of guides er, who during the night would take you over the er take you over the er Pyrenees, er over the mountains er, the Pyrenees, you see becau... er you're in need of a guide because the er the frontier posts etcetera etcetera were shut, were closed. Er, and they were also guarded.... And er you were in need of er er finding a way over the Pyrenees which er gave you a chance of er getting to the other side, so hence er you needed er you needed French er er French guides. [speaker003:] And they were guarded by Franco's troops? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] They were guard guarded by Franco's troops? [speaker002:] Ah well you didn't go over, you didn't go over er where Franco's troops were, but [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] they were guarded by French troops, you see. [speaker003:] I see. Yeah. [speaker002:] Er there was not a lot of enthusiasm... for this er th this guarding which went on you see, because everybody was in sympathy... er with the cause of the republican government, the S the Spanish republican government.... [speaker003:] Now, [speaker002:] So it was er only half-hearted as far as er as far as the er the er activities of the guards on the frontiers from the French side were concerned. [speaker003:] Now, where did you go to once you were in Spain? [speaker002:] Well, we went to a place called Figueres... That's just inside er that's just inside, er just inside Spain, what [speaker003:] . [plane overhead] [speaker002:] they have it's a it's an old an old fort, from the grander days of the er history of Spain yeah. And er from there, from there we we er we were er we were obviously then enrolled there, and we then went to er a training base of Albusate [speaker003:] Now how [speaker002:] more or less in the er almost in the middle of Spain. [speaker003:] Tt how long had the erm journey took you then from from from Nottingham down to Albusate [speaker002:] From here to to er republican territory? [speaker003:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] Perhaps six days.... [speaker003:] And it was quite short then? The er. [speaker002:] Oh yeah yeah, it was quite short, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. Now what happened when you got to er Albusate the me? This was what was there, it was the international brigade? [speaker002:] Well that was the that was the er base headquarters of the international brigade, Albusate And then from there,w you were farmed out to the village, which was er er sort of the base, who are responsible for your er particular national battalion, you see er, the the the French people, they they er w they would be in one village, the English and the Canadians er er Americans would be er... in this place that we were at, called Tarrazona... Er and the Germans w, the German anti-fascists would be er in another. Er like wh when I was with the It er the Italian anti-fascists, you see. [speaker003:] And what er How many different nationalities were there then?? [speaker002:] Well, you you you name the nationality and they were there, you see. They were a everybody was there. [speaker003:] And not just Europeans? [speaker002:] Oh no, no. [speaker003:] Who who from outside of Europe? [speaker002:] No, there were there were Indonesian, there were there we the the there were Chinese, there was er the there were Mexicans, there were er Ce people from er Central America, South America, from everywhere. [speaker003:] Now, given the different nationalities,wa wasn't there a communication problem? Language problem? [speaker002:] Well, er er there there al there always is, isn't there? There is a there is but er... er but er er the medium er er as best it could be used was was Spanish you see.... See? And it's surprising the number of people er who do speak Spanish. You see, because everybody everybody from Mexico, right down to the er to the tip of South America, for example,... er speak one dialect or another... of er of er of of of of Spain, of the Spanish language, and large areas of er... of er the Indes... you see, er... and Italian is not... a long way from it, you see, so er er er it it on the surface it may seem to have have been difficult, but the er you know there we we we did get by. [speaker003:] Did you manage by pick did you pick up a few words yourself? [speaker002:] Ah, yes, just a few. [speaker003:] Everybody managed by [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] doing that did they? [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] And er what what was the point, it was like a training camp as well was it? [speaker002:] That's right, yeah. [speaker003:] Now what what kind of er training did you get? [speaker002:] Well er we... got we got the use of er er of rifles, you know, there weren't many, because they were wanted er they were wanted at the er front. There were one or two rifles they were er, you know, [speaker003:] [cough]. [speaker002:] so we did indeed get some basic er basic military training. We fired rifles, and and and and and this and this sort of thing. Er, we did er you know practise military formations... as they were as they were practised in er in those days and so on. So we did er we did indeed get some er basic military training. [speaker003:] Erm... what about your standard of living? What what kind of food did you get, and where were you living at the time? [speaker002:] Er,... well there was always a problem er food-wise, because there was a scarcity, there was a sc an overall scarcity... er of food. Er... er... and the Spanish coast, you see, was blockaded. You see it was er whilst it was er er a democratically, legally elected government, you see there were such people as er er as Mussolini, from Italy, fascist Italy,... and er er er... Hitlerite Germany you see, who had got units, naval units, air units etcetera, blockaded. Blockaded the er er the ports of er of republican Spain. And consequently, er... the blockade did have er did have serious er serious consequences for the imports in relation to food etcetera, that er that were required by the er by the republican government. [speaker003:] So what sort of [speaker002:] I remember there was one fellow, er an Englishman, he was known as Potato Jones. He used to he used to run his own ship, er a little coastal a little coastal er er vessel. Er, and he he used to run he used to run food to er the... in er in this in this boat, a fellow named Potato Jones, I don't know why he was known as Potato Jones, [speaker003:] Er was was he politically inclined, was he [speaker002:] Er this I don't know, this I don't know, but er [speaker003:] or was it a bit of opportunist entrepreneur? [speaker002:] Yeah. He was an he he was an he was a hero you see, er er er [speaker003:] You don't know whether he did it from an entrepreneur's point of view, or from er [speaker002:] No. Exactly why, he must have had some sympathy, mustn't he? [speaker003:] .... Er now, [speaker002:] And and and the food, on [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the question of food [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] you see it was er er er it could have been er it could have been er better done, but er, we got by, we got by. [speaker003:] What what exactly kind of meals did you have? What were they? [speaker002:] Most of it most of it is most [speaker003:] Rice is it? [speaker002:] of it was soup. Most of it, [speaker003:] Was it? [speaker002:] most of it was soup. I was ever so sure that er that that... there was a goodly number of er er er well there was a qu quite a substantial fall in the in the in the donkey population, er [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] er in Spain, because we reckoned it was only donkey that went in that went [LAUGHTER] into the er burro as they call it [], went into the went into the soup, you know with the beans and er er er various types of lentils and so on. And er the bread. The bread wasn't bad, the bread wasn't bad. [speaker003:] Did you ever get any let up from that though? Did you ever have a decent meal? [speaker002:] Er... n not really, you you may talk your way into some peasant's house, and er er he'd give you a scrambled egg or or something like this, and er that was something, if you got a scrambled egg. [speaker003:] And what about oth other other supplies, I mean clothing, and cigarettes and that kind of thing, was that? [speaker002:] ? [sniff]. Well, you had what you went in you see, er you may get a you may have got a a trench-coat, or a poncho, you know, er er sort of a big cloak, er... but er uniform in the in the accepted military sense, er, no.. [speaker003:] Mm. And what about cigarettes? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] How about did you manage for them? Cigarettes?... [speaker002:] Well, er er a similar, er... when you got a letter, when you got a letter,so you you'd probably get... you'd probably get four or five Woodbines, you see, er things like this, and there was an issue from time to time, and they were chiefly American cigarettes, chiefly American cigarettes. [speaker003:] Now, [speaker002:] Perhaps once a week you'd get twenty of those, but er... there there was a local tobacco, you know. But er, you'd got to be a man and a half to be able just to to smoke to smoke the local stuff. [sniff]. [speaker003:] Now how long were you were you at this er camp before you? [speaker002:] Oh er... perhaps a couple of months. No longer. [speaker003:] Now how how was the army itself organized, did you was it in the in the normal normal sense of the army [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] or was it [speaker002:] Yes, it was organized and it and er yes. There were companies, er and there'd be probably three companies to a battalion, something like this, depends on the arms, er and then er you'd get three or four battalions to er to a brigade, you see. [speaker003:] But you had political commissars? [speaker002:] And we had political commissars, oh yes, yes. [speaker003:] And what what sort of a role did they play, then? What did they do? [speaker002:] Er, well,... they had a difficult job, they had a difficult job you see, because they'd got to keep explaining to you why you hadn't got a rifle.... And er... and when you're fighting a war, you see and er and and and er and you haven't got a rifle, I mean it's a serious problem.... So the political commissar has got to convince you, you see, as to who was responsible for you not having a rifle.... Er... in other words in other words,... their task was one of er of holding, maintaining, you know,... er a political enthusiasm,... you know and er and er a political discipline, see?... So when things aren't going very well, you see, the the the f these these are the chaps that's got to do, they've got to do the explaining. [speaker003:] But er did they have er any other sort of job to do though? I mean did they you know deliver political speeches to try and. [speaker002:] Oh yes, yes, yes.. This was their role, this was their role, you see. [speaker003:] Erm and how did that go down well, did it er did it work in practice? [speaker002:] Well it more or less, it more or less it was accepted. [cough]. Because he's talking,... he's he's talking to er er a fairly high er political level of understanding [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] you see. [speaker003:] Mm.... And wh... what happened then? Wh where did you go to anyway when you when you were sent to the front? [speaker002:] Oh well er I joined the er [sniff] I joined the er British battalion, er... er up the front, not far from a place called er. [speaker003:] interesting, you said the British battalion,th y, in your own battalions you kept your own nationality. [speaker002:] Oh yes, aha. [speaker003:] So that language [speaker002:] Yeah. Although for a time for a time, I was er I was with er er... er an hotchpotch, mixed up... outfit,wh which included er Americans, Canadians, [cough] er and British. [speaker003:] But mainly but English speaking? [speaker002:] Oh aye, yes, they were all English speaking, [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] oh yes, yeah. [speaker003:] But anyway when y you were first sent with the British battalion to, was that?. [speaker002:] Well then I went to the British battalion, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] not far. [speaker003:] Erm did you have all your equipment by this time, then you did get a rifle? [speaker002:] More or less, more or less. Er, you'd never got er you'd never got enough... er if you'd got a rifle, er you didn't have many rounds of ammunition, and things like this, you see. So there was never er there was never an an abundance of anything, as far as that went. [speaker003:] Now were you involved in many battles? [speaker002:] Not many. No.... Er... I was involved in the in the... this battle that resulted in the breakthrough by the er by the er by Franco's fascists, at, er [speaker003:] What what sort of things went on, erm was it close fighting or did you never see [speaker002:] Yeah, it it got fairly close. Er it ought not to have done in so far that er we were we were we were we were moving, we were going forward to take up positions on er on the river, er and this was being done on the understanding that er a certain bridge had been destroyed,... er and it hadn't been destroyed... er and they were and they were they were already across you see. They were already our side, [speaker003:] This is the nationalist army, yeah? [speaker002:] and er they did indeed even have tanks across this side. Er... and when you ain't got any tanks, [LAUGHTER], and he's got some tanks, your your your situation isn't it's it's not very it's not very healthy. They not only had tanks, they had er they had aircraft. In fact, in fact,... tt it was a regular... army division er from Italy that was doing this job.... [speaker003:] And so you as a sort of er volunteer army didn't have a lot of [speaker002:] Well we you didn't have a lot of chance in these circumstances, in these circumstances when they when they possessed every every piece of modern equipment,... or equipment that w was modern in those er in th in those er in those days, and you're not er [speaker003:] Was there much? [speaker002:] you're not er er... er more heavily armed than er than rifle, and the odd light machine gun. And er he's already he's already got you at a disadvantage,... by er er you're on the move and he's waiting for you. [speaker003:] Now,d was there much of a battle, or did you realize? [speaker002:] Yes, this went on, it went on for about er three days, it went on for three days. Er... but er in the end er in the end they won. Obviously. They [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] er... the air force, the German air force, aye, they had a go as well, they they they they they they they were providing all sorts of er er strafing and bombing, er comma. And it's my contention, it's my contention... that them people that were er strafing and bombing me, er outside, er in republican Spain, was the same was the same crowd was the same crowd that were bombing and strafing several years later, in the in in the second world war, in in in France er and Holland. [speaker003:] Now, what happened to you then? [speaker002:] Well, I was captured,... [speaker003:] And... if we can just... er... just go back just for for one minute, just to draw a bit of before you were captured, er and whatnot, could you tell us just a little bit about the living conditions that you had when you were actually at the front. [speaker002:] Well er aye.... Well you j you just live rough, you li you live rough. Er and this particular time of the year, it was summer of course, you we you you weren't overly worried about not having a shelter, you see. You had reached the stage where you could er you could sleep out... er and you didn't er er [LAUGHTER] you didn't have a soft bed [] if er you were you were living rough. And of course er er i i I think it says something it says some thing for the morale, you see, that er and political understanding you see, that you can accept all these things, see, er er and still er and still carry on determined. [speaker003:] Now what about your supplies, how did you manage with them? [speaker002:] Er most of the supplies, food, was picked up er was picked up locally.... Er... er it seems we had a very good er er quartermaster, he seemed to always turn up er he seemed to always turn up with something. Er... it seems it seems that the English are p pretty good at this sort of thing. [speaker003:] And did you ever meet up with your friends from Nottingham at that time? [speaker002:] Er, yes. Er... Gregory, yes, I saw him. But Gregory, he came down to the er to the base, and then I went out, you see and er er he he was back at the base whil whil whilst this was going on. Although, although I would think that er Waldo Gregory has got the longest er... time served in active service than probably er any other individual that went to Spain. he was in at the beginning and he was er [LAUGHTER] he was there at the end, sort of thing []. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er... he suffered a couple of wounds as a ma as a matter of fact. [speaker003:] Now er... what happened once you'd been captured then? Where were you taken? [speaker002:] Tt... er... well we had like I I say, we w we were i we were in the hands we were in the hands of the er Italian army, the er regular army from Italy, we were in their hands... er for quite some time. Er... there was some relief I should think about this, er er a bit of relief. But after a while, after a while we were handed over to the er Spanish fascist authorities, proper.... Er... er there was just the one meal a day and a piece of bread and that was your lot. But er after a while, [speaker003:] Erm er th they so they treated you quite badly then? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] They they didn't treat you very well? [speaker002:] Not r no, not really. No. [speaker003:] And di did they [speaker002:] They they weren't against laying about you with sticks and stones and rifle butts for no reason at all. [speaker003:] And did they pick on any individuals? [speaker002:] Er oh yeah, they they would [speaker003:] . [speaker002:] pick on individuals.... There was a... a bloke named, er... he w he he was er... er an Irishman, who who had er a fairly high standing [cough] in the Irish er republican movement. Er they were they picked they picked er they picked on him. And as a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, the Germans th th th had thought that he would be of value to them at a later stage,... because he was er he was shipped to Germany, and er er I understand that he died in Germany... er at the latter end of er of of er of the of the war, the Second World War. Y er er... th they they kept him there, they they I think they were hopeful, they were hopeful that he being a republican from Ireland, that er he he c he c he could have been used, you know by the Nazis in er in their general propaganda, directed to Britain... er... with a Irish er slant on the situation, but er it's quite clear that er that they were never able to use. er er er wouldn't be used, because er... he was never heard he was never he was heard, he was never heard, erm similar to this Lord Haw-Haw, you know that used to do the broadcasting er from from Nazi Germany to er to to to Britain, particularly to England. But anyway, he he died almost as a prisoner at er at towards the end of er o er er of the Second World War.... Er and they did indeed, they picked er they picked on him. Er... but this er that was a that was a er decision of the er er of the German command, of the German army that was in Spain. But after the war,w we went back er under the er under the control of the Italian army. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Er okay. Firstly er what is the area covered by the police district? [speaker002:] Well geographically it starts from the roundabout at the bottom of Road, where Road meets Boulevard. And then along Road, turn left onto Road, and go right past the city hospital, turn left onto Road, through to Lane, Road to the junction with the. Turn right to the roundabout. Then it covers the whole of Estate, Estate. If you go left along Road to the crossroads, near wh where the Flats. Er turn left onto Road, to the railway line, and it cuts back along the railway line er which eventually comes out on the ring road. And again continue along the ring road to the Lane roundabout. Turn right onto Lane, to the bottom near the pub, Turn right again on Road onto er Road. Then onto Road and then turn left onto Road. Along there to the Recreation Ground, turn left onto Street down to Boulevard, turn right along Boulevard, back to Road. And that is the geographical boundary. [speaker003:] Yeah. Are these split into subdivisions? [speaker002:] Yeah that is the or the Road police subdivision. That is further subdivided into beats what they call beats. Which is eight separate areas. Which comprise in name,,,,,,, and. [speaker003:] Mhm. Er do you feel that the the area that is covered, there is enough er staff to cover that area? [speaker002:] Yeah erm the amount of police necessary for each area is based on all sorts of statistics, and for the statis statistics that we have for this area, we have or the chief constable's decided that he'll allocate a hundred and two police officers to police this area, which we find adequate. There are times of course when we get very busy, there are times when we get slack. But overall the allocation is about correct.... [speaker003:] Er how did the national policing policy affect? After nineteen eighty one, to the present day? [speaker002:] Well as you know, in nineteen eighty one, there were there were troubles all over the country, which seemed to start from problems in Brixton. And that er went across to sort of, Moss Side in Manchester, Toxteth, Handsworth and eventually to. Er as a result of that, Lord Scarman was appointed by the the government to look into the problems. And to report on it. Er and one of his findings was that there was not really enough liaison between erm groups of people in the community. Er he found that there was a big a big rift between the police and certain groups. So he said. Look get into the community and find out what the problems are. So consequently after eighty one, or after the troubles in eighty one, erm there was an extra allocation of police officers in, and they were told to police mainly the area of the Flats Complex, which was perhaps where the troubles where in. [speaker003:] Mm. Er what er what special problems did the the flats complex pres present to [speaker002:] Geographically speaking again, if you put a lot of people in a small area, er you'll get problems because, square yard for square yard, you've go more people. The design of the flats was tailor-made for crime, if you look at it now. I'm sure that's wa wasn't in the planners minds of course. But if you look at the flats now, erm it was tailor-made for crime. Erm and with the housing people putting the type of people they put in there, it did lead to a lot of problems. Erm... a lot of blues parties were held. Er these are sort of parties that start at midnightish and go on through the night. Erm attended predominantly by West Indian people. Erm and that caused a lot of noise. And that was probably the main complaint overall was the noise in the small hours. [speaker004:] So people would phone up and complain that noise throughout the night was mainly concent er mainly down to the blues parties? [speaker002:] We we we did get a lot of phone calls complaining about erm loud reggae type music from that area. Er a lot of calls. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well th [speaker004:] Yeah part part of the problems was say Going back to what Sergeant said about er the people in the from the housing, being mixed. Er the impression I got when I talked to the locals who lived here was that it wasn't gonna be that mixed. There wasn't gonna be single parent families with three children, er living above an old age pensioner who'd been in there from the word go. Er that problem always raised and of course visitors and things like that, car parking, it all came to a head. You kn about that time. [phone rings] The er the special problems the complex presents at the moment, are very minimal compared to what er other police officers I've spoke to who've worked the flats in the past, have told me about. Er there was problems with dogs. Dog mess, dogs running wild. Er they weren't built for dogs, yet people brought dogs with them or adopted, let's say, dogs what came there. So they started running round. Er lads who were interested in motorbikes. You get a sixteen seventeen year old who'd interested in motorbike, he wants to take his motorbike to th where he lives. So therefore you got motorbikes going up the ramps, which weren't designed for that. Lot of complaints like that. Er litter was one that raised its head very much. Not just chip papers and er newspaper type litter what we normally see, it's if you're living on the top flat and you have a new settee, how what do you do with that settee? And unfortunately settees appeared at the bottom of the you know, just been pushed over the sides and appeared and then they were left. Er [speaker003:] And what what sort of powers do they people have er when problems like that arise? [speaker004:] Well the the powers, I mean we've got the powers of there is an offence of depositing litter. But does that stop the problem if if we report someone for depositing litter I E a settee, I mean they don't want to really deposit it there, is it quality of life that's forced them to do it. What we did do, is we contacted the D D T S. Or the the officers at the time did. And there there was a project done with those to get the rubbish moved, and any rubbish that was seen, was contacted. I mean er I've been told circumstances where there's been a pensioners who can't move very well. And they've got to get to the chutes to dispositer the rubbish. Well will they do it? Or does it get left outside, and then somebody comes along and kicks it, and then it's open and therefore the rubbish is all over. It were just that quality of life. And policemen don't like to see it. But what do they do? So they had to start contacting the er What's the terminology we use at the moment? The inter agency? [speaker002:] Inter-agency liaison is it? [speaker004:] Inter-agence liaison. The police instead of ignoring it, decided to try and amongst with other agencies, you know the cleaning service and that, to try and er do a project. And it worked. I think people. [speaker003:] Yeah. Erm [speaker004:] In the future, I can't see E the only one I can see is, What do they do with the flats when they empty. I cannot see the flats becoming empty on a Friday, and the bulldozers moving in on the Sunday or the Monday. I can see a period where the flats will just stand. And whether that will then attract children and damage. Or whether they'll be fenced off, I just don't know. [speaker003:] Yeah. So you can [cough] the there might be a problem with say the flats being left empty, that trouble may may occur. Erm so people getting over the fences in in the flats while [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] they're fenced off. [speaker004:] They're being tinned up very securely. I've yet to hear of a report where somebody's empti Is that Have you heard of anywhere? They've emptied the flats. They are s very securely. The problem is I think it's the I mean there is a private security firm in there at the moment, perhaps they'll remain till eventually it's all done. But children are children aren't they. And er they are attracted to them type of building. Unfortunately it's right in the centre and it er does attract them. [speaker003:] Yeah. Erm do you have liaison with local community groups at all? Er [speaker004:] Yes. In our role as principal beat officers, er we do. More than the fully operational constables and sergeants do, yeah. W er I first li worked. Visit the neighbourhood centre at, and there I'm in contact with residents associations, Asian groups, er all types of groups, and if I'm invited to them I go. Er to sit at the meeting. If it's full attend them anyway. Er we also got the Asian community centre on Street, and we we go there and there's a cross exchange of er ideas. There's a community centre on... near the Centre. It is a lot [speaker003:] Could could you explain what a principal beat officer is? [speaker004:] I'm sure sergeant will be able to. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker002:] Again, going back to the Scarman report in eighty one, the area is divided up into eight beats. And rather than have police officers coming on duty, and saying, Okay, you take this beat, you take that. They decided to appoint eight constables and give each area, one constable, or devote one constable to each area. And he would only ever work that area. And he generally worked it during the hours of daylight, when he could be seen and people could liaise with him. [speaker003:] er I mean, hoe successful has it been? [speaker002:] Well without sort of, saying because I work in that department, it's good, erm I sincerely believe that it is very good. I mean, twenty years ago when the volume of work wasn't so high as it now, then erm every police officer was doing that, but because time has marched on and problems have become more an more, erm we we tend to have left the traditional way of policing behind. And I'm sure you've seen where the chief constable says he wants more bobbies on the beat, well perhaps this is a way to a to achieving that. [speaker003:] Mm. Erm [speaker004:] The community does relate to one police officer. They know he's not gonna be there for for ever, I E you know, he'll want to move on or they perhaps will move on. But the fact that they see the same pl face See not everybody wants to talk to a policeman to report crime do they? A lot of them want to just talk, to feel secure that they've seen a policeman. Or just pass time of day. Cos that's what they remember from their childhood. [speaker002:] It's perhaps fair to say as well that if if er er a member of the public knows that P C Smith or P C Jones is his local policeman, he would prefer to see P C Smith or P C Jones. And if he can't or doesn't then he will sometimes keep the problem to himself. Rather than report it to anybody. And I think the the local touch if you like of the principal beat officer, er shows itself on occasions like that. [speaker003:] D d er do the people get to know police officers name? I mean is that sort of friendship built up or [speaker004:] Oh yeah. [speaker003:] relationship whatever [speaker004:] Yeah bear i I mean both of us sitting here, we've been to social functions on this areas [speaker002:] Yeah the the the amount of phone calls we get asking for P C, for P C, for P C, for P C, er for P C is quite incredible. People do know who their local policeman is. [speaker004:] And they won't they won't be satisfied if the get somebody else, they'll say [speaker002:] No. [speaker004:] That's right. [speaker002:] Yeah. The er Course we you know l l like at the naval centre, I'm in the handbook, along with the er other services to. So they do you know relate to that, Er I haven't got a magic wand. They know I haven't got a magic wand. Brut a lot of the time, they don't want to report that their child is riding without lights, but they accept that if you have a quiet word, he may not do it. Yeah it's enjoyable work. And it's not that enjoyable to put people in prison, it's not that enjoyable to put people in court. If you can see a result If I talk to John Smith and tell him that I know he keeps riding on the pavement at you know, with no lights, it sounds minor, but the old age pensioner who keeps nearly getting missed, it's very you know upsetting. And if he does and then I see him and that he isn't doing it any more, at least I've got job satisfaction in that he hasn't. A lot of the time, the fact that they know that you're doing it, stops them. Well the parents seem to appreciate that as well. That's how they were dealt with. [speaker003:] Erm [cough] moving on a bit now, er er I mean, which crimes do you figure do you think figure most prominently around the fl in and around the flats?... [speaker004:] At the present time, there's very not that much crime at all. There is one perhaps two of what we call the blues parties, still running. But er compared to what there was. I say you know, we do talk to each other as police officers and talking to the lads who work the flats, from when they were busy to you know, now it's on the you know, I think what, there's about... three hundred people is there? Or three hundred if that, left in the flats. It's not that many. Er there was a lot of thefts from cars. Because the cars are obviously parked in an area away from the er where the people lived. They were left on the car park, so people knew they were parked there for the night. There's a lot of thefts from cars. Theft of cars. Cars being abandoned there because of the chances of them being er found. Er... damage, graffiti. Then because of the reputation the area got for the blues or for the so called red light area, you get people coming in from out of town, which then brought it's own problems with it. There was thefts from persons you know, people, three o'clock in the morning, making their way home from a blues were robbed. Erm there was drug dealing going on. Er the blues theirselves were a crime. If you think about it they're selling drink there without licences. You know that's all now going if you're just talking about the flats area. [speaker003:] Mm. Well li what what happens, does the the the crime just vanish or does it move somewhere else, do do do do the problems move around? [speaker004:] It Not so much move around, er some people, the age group you're talking about going to the blues, because don't just think that it's it is prominently West Indians or blacks, that go, but there's white people go as well. Which you know,the as they get older There seems to be an age group for blues. You don't see that many forty, fifty years olds at blues. And whether they tend to get older and move on, or like you say I totally agree, Have they took off somewhere else? You know perhaps in another area of Nottingham where they all tend to go now. [speaker003:] Erm. I'm just wondering th I mean how how how do you regard the erm the the problems of prostitution and the related crimes to that in the area? [speaker002:] I think by tradition every city had a red light district. And again looking back through history, Nottingham's red light district is. Why I don't know, whether it's because street lighting is less, or geographically lends itself. But yes if you live er in an area where prostitutes frequent,i it is a problem to you. Erm we get complaints from... you know good people who get pestered by them. Men who get pestered by them. Erm we used to get complaints about kerb crawlers, but as you know, we had a a new law that was allegedly attributed to Nottingham, which made it an offence to, in certain circumstances to kerb crawl, looking for prostitutes. But erm generally,s what we say, keeping the lid on the problem. You won't stamp it out. Again by tradition, it's the oldest profession, it's always been with us, possibly always will. Erm some people put forward a very strong argument for legalizing it. Instead of saying, don't make it against the law, make it lawful. And you know create special premises for it. There's an argument for that. But at the moment it's not really a great problem, because the lads here go and see the prostitutes, report them for summons, and we do Well in my time here certainly,i it's been reduced considerably to what it was. I'm not connected with that. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But it's certainly gone down a he er quite a bit. Noticeably. [speaker003:] Erm I mean a are there rela what what what would you say are the related crimes to prostitution? [speaker002:] Well I think you're moving on now to a sphere where perhaps C I D could you know help you on that. Erm you must have heard of the phrases of poncing, where somebody is operating a prostitute and if they don't get a required amount of money a week or er er an amount of money where they consider it sufficient, they'll probably go and beat them up or something like that. Then we do get odd cases of that, but again the m the majority of them are never reported. And it's kept you know, within that sort that sort of er area. It doesn't come to our notice much. [speaker004:] Yeah I get I mean I get the impression if you're thinking about you know, the thefts from the people, I mean a lot of the time is the guy who's visiting the prostitute, doesn't report to us if his wallet's been stolen, for the simple fact he was visiting a prostitute. He thinks we'll look at it in a different light. Er so obviously there is a lot of undetected crime that we wouldn't know about. You know, the guy won't tell his wife or his girlfriend or whatever, that he's lost his wallet. You know, sooner than do that. I know that does happen. [speaker003:] Do you get many complaints from women who've been bothered by blokes? Er who've just been walking along the road. [speaker004:] Bearing in mind like er Sergeant told you before, the area that we cover, yeah the the girls or prostitute do stand Street. A lot of them also stand on the part that covered by Street And I know Street has got a tenant's action group against prostitutes. B because of that one complaint, you know. Er not so much on Street because they tend to stand near the flats. Entrances on the roads where the houses aren't. And the the women and that who live in that area, tend I've noticed to walk on the other side of the road anyway. I personally I've had yet to deal with one where the complaint. And I cover that part of er Street. Er it does happen. [speaker003:] Right. Yeah I get you. Erm do you have cases where the where the girls or same faces keep popping up or do you do you feel that once they've been pulled in they it puts them off? [speaker004:] Well we tend not to what you've just said, pull them in. At one time, the officers if they saw the girls soliciting, used to arrest them, bring them to a police station, they're finger print, photographed and dealt with. Now some of the girls And they're released you know, some of the girls were arrested what two or three times a night. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] So it was looked at tying up police time. And what was decided was We know what's known as report for summons. We know the girls, we check them out, whether they're wanted or not. We know the details and the w they're told the facts when we report it and then they're given a summons. To go to court. So there's been a a difference there. We're not pulling them in. Yeah I mean some very nice girls don't take [LAUGHTER] that wrong [] I mean, they n they don't hit you on the head and start fighting every time you talk to them. But how can you stop them going back? [speaker002:] Yeah. Erm I think the only deterrent is increased fines. Erm and again they work quite simply mathematically. If they can make a hundred pound a week, and they're only getting fined twenty, they ain't doing too bad. [speaker003:] Yeah. Erm with wi with the big national AIDS campaign, do you have you er with the prostitution, have you had anything to do with if if you ever speak to them do you say, you know,yo Look there's AIDS, can you do something? You know. [speaker004:] Yeah well, the girls theirselves made an approach. I mean there was er on the television and etcetera only the two weeks ago, we had two of the girls from here had made an approach about AIDS. Vice squad, or anti-vice should I say, are er involved in that. [speaker003:] Mm. Erm... Let's go on to the next question now about erm Just wondering what what on what cir under what circumstances, the police get involved in domestic disturbances on the flats? [speaker002:] Well every... domestic I go to, I look at as a potential murder. You have to. They normally come to the attention of the police by neighbours, ringing up, There's an argument or there's a lot of noise from next door. And we go. We obviously don't go, knock on the door and say, Mrs Brown next door is complaining about you. We knock on the door, and whoever comes we say, you know, We've had a complaint, is everything all right. If it's man and wife arguing, or man, female arguing, and they're the only two in this place, and I'm satisfied that it's gonna be quiet, and there's no injuries to each other and it's not gonna flare up, then that's a domestic, that you can be quite happy with. There's then the domestics where it's gonna keep going. Or has been going in the past, and violence obviously can result in serious injury or at least death. Cos the tension runs high. So it's normally brought to us either by, the neighbours ringing in or somebody passing by saying they can hear screaming. Or one of the persons, man or woman, ringing in saying, I've got trouble at me own, I want me clothes back. So there's different sorts of domestic. There is the power of breach of the peace. Or if they [speaker003:] Has it been much of a problem on the flats? [speaker002:] No they tended to s without s sounding wrong, tended to sort theirselves out. Th everybody Yeah there was noise and that but er when we got there it had normally quietened down. Perhaps going back again to the quality of life, was it a a release valve for the frustration of the places? I don't know. [speaker003:] Erm erm go on to the next one then. Erm erm do you d do you think that drugs and alcohol are a major problem on the flats? Or were a major problem? [speaker002:] Yeah. There was drugs dealing in the flats. I don't think anybody'll deny that. So therefore the problem was there. If that's what you're looking for, Yeah well that's obviously going with the flats going. There was the drugs problem where Trying to put me er social hat on, of people there on valium e and other drugs which were floating ground and kids were getting hold of these drugs from their parents. Leaving them around s you know quite a few drugs. So that was a problem. Er... the alcohol? No. I don't think so except for the relation to domestics. If the if the old man had been out and spent the wages and on ale and then that resulting. [speaker003:] I was just thinking about er when the pubs turn out and things like that. I mean,d did you get problems around that time of the evening? [speaker002:] No they tended to go home. It's very er [speaker004:] It was very strange [speaker002:] Pub fights and that never seem to appear here do they? [speaker004:] No very strange. My old inspector who's now been and gone, came from Newark, and he said that there was far more trouble within the public houses in Newark, er than ever there was here and he came here, imagining the problem to be a lot worse. And I don't think he ever went to problem you know, a pub fight at all. They just don't seem to happen. [speaker002:] Yeah and I say the obviously is in nigh on in the [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker002:] flats complex and No. You know, they're very I mean the w they way how it was put to me is to d same with all your questions, it was the er, was it the tail wagging the dog. Was ninety percent of the people there very law abiding and just got on with own lives, and ten percent that caused the problems it kept re kept sh showing its head because of these. I mean there's some palaces in them flats. You've been in obviously yourself and er others are not so nice. So But as far as the drink er No. [speaker003:] Er about drugs and going back to the drugs, you mentioned about valium and problems [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] like that. Erm what what about other drugs erm harder drugs. I mean have have they been found on the in the flats? is there is dealing does de dealing go on? [speaker004:] W majority of the dealing in there was marijuana. I would wouldn't like to say about cocaine and heroine because obviously the drug squads could have deals in there what I'm not aware of. But er I've had one arrest in there and that was a girl. And that was for er marijuana. Which er which she stated was freely available in the flats. [speaker003:] Erm well just go to the final question now I mean Erm when th now the flats are emptying out and they're coming down, erm and what what do you see is gonna be the problem? While they're standing e problems while they're standing empty and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] afterwards when they're they're demolished, what problems do you see? [speaker002:] Well I I think the number the population will decrease obviously. Erm there was what six hundred and eighty flats in all. So if you multiply that by two, you're talking thirteen fourteen hundred, perhaps even more, so that amount of people are gonna go. But I don't think the method of policing will change, because again going back to eighty one and Scarman, and he said, Get in among them, liaise, talk. Er and this is exactly what we are doing, so I can't see the policy er of policing of changing at all. It's just that you know I mean if you want to talk numbers, there'll be less people [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to police. [speaker004:] I think a lot depends on what they build there. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] If they build traditional what they call traditional terrace type housing, I think the community in itself will er just adjust to that. If you then start talking of building supermarkets whatever, then we're obviously looking at thefts [LAUGHTER] from supermarkets []. I mean I just know what they're gonna build there, I don't think a lot anybody knows as yet. There's obviously policies being took with the community. Er I think a lot will depend. I mean w like I said early on, we're gonna get problems while they're empty. You're going to get people who want to sleep in there. You're gonna get kids who are missing from home who'll climb in there. That could be anywhere, that could or here. That's not down to the area. Er a lot depends on what they build there. If they build traditional houses, we're then talking about the same amount. Of people coming back, families. But I don't think the problems will come to traditional housing, what came to the flats, I E the walkways, the litter, the abuse, the facts of the parties. I think it'll be a fresh start for the area and a good start. [speaker003:] About the changes that have been made to. Erm do yo do you know anything about those? [speaker004:] I know they're going on to security entrance isn't it, where the er they're going to have their own key or own method of getting in on an intercom. Which apparently has worked quite well at er.. But 'll stay as it is. [speaker003:] Mm. So you do you think that'll be an improvement for do you think? [speaker004:] Well it's got to be for the people there theirselves hasn't it? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] You know. As long as they don't abuse it. I mean it's no good having a your own identity number and then telling everybody what it is, because that'll just never raised its head anyway that much did it? In the flats? [speaker002:] No was the posh part of the flats if you like. [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Right then er well thank very much anyway. I think that's [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Right so erm. You you're the manager of erm the Building Society in? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Erm how long has this branch been in? [speaker002:] we opened end of nineteen eighty, so just over six years now. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And very successful it's been too. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Very pleased to be here. And the performance, both at this branch and as a spin off, our city centre branch in Street, which has benefited from us being here, and the contacts we m we've made while been here. Excellent. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Very pleased. [speaker003:] What you know when when a building society is you know when it when a new branch is opened up. Erm you know, some people would say you know, er seeing the kind of publicity that has had, that it would be it might be quite risky to er to o open the business of a building society here. Erm so what kind of what kind of research goes into into erm choosing where to actually site one? [speaker002:] Well we had we had to look into it very carefully. We looked into this are in terms of the population here. The potential we could receive here, erm the kind of people who live here, the numbers of people who live here now and in the future, the types of housing and housing again, in the future and all in all a g a great deal of study went into the area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And in the end we decided to open here. There was three main reasons. Firstly there are there were no other building societies here anyway. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So we we've cornered the market as it were. No real competition there. Er secondly we've got a link with, the large tobacco factory. Group savings schemes and such like which have been in existence for many years. And with the factory being so close, it would offer them a service, by being closer to them, and improve our links. And thirdly related to that point, with there were a lot of existing members in this area anyway. So it seemed sensible to move into this area, take advantage of that for ourselves, and provide them with a better service. And again that has proved successful. [speaker003:] Mhm. So this is an example of erm a business that which has moved to and done very very well. [speaker002:] Very well indeed, yes. We're very pleased. very successful. [speaker003:] Mhm. In terms of local people, erm have you got many local people who are customers? [speaker002:] Yes. In the su around about this area, the the local housing estates, a great many of our investing members just live practically round the corner, so we get to know them very well. For the mortgage side, we've got a lot of properties in the area that are mortgaged. But this particular branch has got a large area stretching out like, as far as. A lot of out mortgage business comes form the more outlying districts. i think it's fair to to say the majority of our investing members, just live round and about. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Again due to the local er schemes and such like. Got a lot of members from there. Which we see in very regularly. [speaker003:] Mhm. The fact the fact that erm this branch is erm situated in a fairly disadvantaged erm area, erm does that have any implications at all? Or not? [speaker002:] Erm I wouldn't think so w w it means that we have to get to know the the local clients very well indeed. We get to to know their problems better ad understand them better. We get to know them better. Which means we can provide a better service. It means we our staff are able to take more time er to understand and advise our clients which we need to do. Erm and there's no real problems because of the area I wouldn't think. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er in fact it's probably an advantage because the people who come in are generally they're very friendly they're they've got a good spirit amongst themselves. And we find it's a warm friendly area which er a a poss possibly a bigger, more higher paced environment wouldn't get. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] Er. [speaker003:] Yeah. So you're saying it actually has quite a lot of advantages? [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. Th th th th the people round here are excellent. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And there seems to be a good spirit around and Yeah we're we're very pleased to be here, you know. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] We've found a lot of friendliness and warmth. [speaker003:] How how does that co you spoke about friendliness and warmth here, How does it compare working with the other places you've worked at? [speaker002:] Previously I've worked in city centre environments. Which I have enjoyed it's been er a bit of a challenge coming here because in the city centre, business-wise, you're surrounded by the professions such as estate agents and solicitors. And the membership, your investors had to actually make the effort to come to you. Whereas here the situation is reversed. Erm... we're surrounded by the membership, and it's actually me which has to go out to visit the estate agents and solicitors and such like. But I found in the city centre, that er I did enjoy working there, but it it can be a bit of a cold and unfriendly place because it's so such a rapid pace of life. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Whereas here, you're still very busy, but er you have the membership just on your doorstep and you can get to meet them and know them a lot closer than you would when you're having er a large volume of people filing through your doors in the city centre. [speaker003:] Mhm. if you you said you preferred to work here, you preferred working here to other places? [speaker002:] I think I do yes yes. I I did enjoy going to the city centre, but so far er in the few months I've been in, I've enjoyed it tremendously yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. When I s first spoke to you erm earlier I mean, like last week, erm you were telling me er something about erm the involvement that this branch has had with the local community. So what do you think about that? [speaker002:] Yes with with the membership being on the doorstep, we do get to know them a lot better. Er we do have to get involved with the community and we just find ourselves drawn into the community without any real problems. We've been able to advise and help the the members. And enabled us to to be to be known throughout the local streets, the local shopkeepers and such like. So we find ourselves drawn in very easily. On a more specific nature we've sponsored a five-a-side football competition at the local Leisure Centre, for the last couple of years. Providing the trophies, getting to know the people involved, and getting publicity obviously for ourselves from that, which has been very rewarding, very enjoyable. Er we're involved in the local Carnival recently. Er had a stall there again, getting to know the people involved. Various other things, there's the local Day Centre. Which is a local centre for physically handicapped adults. We've got to know the the people who run the centre, fairly well. Erm helping out whenever we can. And helping them with advice as well. So all in all, yeah, we get we get involved with the community as much as possible. Both as a conscious decision, because of the business we do er need to be known around the area. And also for the enjoyment and personally, the the satisfaction you get, rather than going home at five o'clock and forgetting all about. Much rather be involved and I find it much more rewarding personally. [speaker003:] Mhm. In terms of erm the fact that you've got f erm fairly sizeable ethnic minority population. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Erm what kind of efforts have been made to get customers... [speaker002:] First of all we offer a good a service as possible, we try to get to know the individuals, and help them and give them individual advice. Erm I think that's ab the best that though we can get word of mouth, erm getting to know the individuals. Erm also w we've had several window displays er reflecting the local issues. Such as we had an exhibition of Afro Caribbean art, last year, from a local sender just up er Road a little bit. And that produced a lot of interest. From the local community. Had people coming in, they noticed that we aren't just a building there offering financial services, but we were actually interested again, in the local community. And the interest which bore out was was of great use. It wasn't the kind of display which we could have had in in a city centre environment, er but in this area, er it shows that we're receptive to people's needs and we care about what goes on. And it helped. The the individuals, the the members, to see that we we cared about what what their interests were. And they came in and chatted to us about it. Er it was very very pleasing. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Went very well. And it's something which we're doing again in the future. [speaker003:] Mhm. With regard to the flats I mean, one o erm the flats have been up since the late sixties and erm now they're gonna be coming down. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] And they erm were a large area of housing in the local area. Erm... what do you feel about the fact that those are gonna be coming down? [speaker002:] I think the flats still have a stigma about them. They're a lot of the problems in tend to be directed towards or because of the flats. They're certainly a controversial issue. Erm so if they do come down, or when they do come down, I think it it will benefit the area, as long as something better is repl is there to replace them. Erm I think very many people live in the flats sort of thing, and and they're going to need rehousing. A lot of them are going out of the area, but I think er I'd imagine that a large majority or a a large proportion certainly would wish to stay in. And the first priority must be to find them suitable replacement housing. I've noticed in and, there's a lot of new town houses being built. New brick built standard sort of more traditional type housing, which are very attractive and appear to be very well built. And I think that could be the area, or the the type of development which could go on the flats. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er the present flat site. Er new housing has to be a priority in this area I I should have I would think. And this type of more traditional housing er would be preferable. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] n my in my mind. My opinion. [speaker003:] Mhm. Going back to what you said earlier on on er on this question, erm you mentioned that erm the flats were subject to controversy. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Erm what are the kind o obviously you've been here a few months. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Erm what are the kind of comments that people have made to you about the flats? [speaker002:] Concerning the flats? [speaker003:] I mean how have they been seen by local mu community? How you know,w what kind of views do do people have? [speaker002:] Yes we have. A lot of a lot er of members who actually live in the flats, and all of our members practically know about the flats, and the the general impression is that they are a in a way a a a friendly and er a community type place. But they're they're very disadvantaged and they're a bit of an eyesore. Generally. So the impression which I get from the locals, is that they'll be happier when the flats are down. As long as they're replaced by something which is an improvement. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The general feeling is, Get the flats away and the place will improve. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And that generally comes form the flat owners which I've talked to meself. [speaker003:] Mhm. Do you so you've got quite a f some customers from the flats? [speaker002:] Mm. Certainly, yes, some some people who live in the flats, come along to the branch quite regularly, and generally the the impression which they give me is that they'll they will be happier when they're the flats have been replaced. [speaker003:] Mhm. you you personally would like some kind of hou some housing to be put there. [speaker002:] Personally, yes, this isn't er a policy view but living in the ar or living around the area, working in this area, I think the area could be improved, if s the flats were replaced by something which looked more attractive. Because the don't look attractive. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er they seem to be the cause of all the problems. If they could be improved by er sorry replaced by housing of a higher standard, erm generally made to look more attractive, landscaped and such like, then I think the area as a whole will improve and it'll attract people to the area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Which I think should be er an important er an important idea in their minds. In the minds of the people who decide what's going to replace them with. [speaker003:] Mhm. What about for local businesses, erm what do you think could be done to actually to attract more businesses to the area? [speaker002:] I think the first thing is to improve the appearance, because the area itself appears to me to be to be thriving. There's a lot of larger shops, we've got Boots just over the road and er a lot er of good businesses round about. There's one or two empty shops, but they appear to be moving fairly quickly and getting taken over. So the important thing I would say, is just to improve the physical appearance. Because a lot of the shops and house fronts which the the bus routes are on, the main roads are on, do look tatty. And if they could be given a a better appearance, then the the people who see them, the people who drive through on th main road, such as Road and Boulevard, they could see that the area isn't as run down as often the medium makes it out to be. Erm to me it is a thriving and very good community, and all it really needs is to look as it's thriving. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm perhaps money could be spent on on face-lifting the areas, because a lot of the structures the s themselves seem very stable and sound. It's just the actual A lick of paint here and there basically and [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm Other areas in which I've lived in I lived in the in an area in Hull, where the whole of this inner city area was revitalized simply by giving things new front doors and new gutters and drainage and tidying up the small gardens that there were, and providing things such as railings. This was all done by er a local authority grant. And the whole street was revitalized in a in a in a swoop. And that kind of thing on a perhaps a little larger scale, could work here I think. [speaker003:] Mhm. Yeah that's quite interesting. That's an example having worked somewhere [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] and er the response there and that [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] works? How well did it work? [speaker002:] That worked very well indeed er over a period of what twelve to eighteen months, the whole street, which was mainly residential, was brought up to standard up to a higher standard, simply by providing new fronts. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm th the the bits of the properties which people actually saw. And that produced a spin off effect, because the people who actually lived in properties or the shopkeepers in the properties, they could see that the outsides were improved, and that provided a spur for them to provide the insides. And it certainly got er the community spirit going and got everyone working together. Someone had given the impetus to sort the outside external improvements for starters, and that provided the spur to for them to do the internal work. And as a whole, the whole street was improved very quickly. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And it was very successful. [speaker003:] I mean a do you think that kind of thing would work here? [speaker002:] I think it could do. Yes. Erm as I say the the people here ha have got the spirit enough the they they're quite happy to to improve the area the they want to see the the area erm go up. There's a lot of pride in the area. And if they were given the opportunity or or and the impetus to to start to do something positive, I'm sure they would take that up. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Just talking about there about the people in the area. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Erm how much community spirit have you found does exist? [speaker003:] Very very much so. Erm perhaps the Since I came to the area about four months ago, the thing that I've noticed most is the people are very proud and they're very friendly, very open people. And s we get a mixture a large mixture of people coming to our office, because this type of area, we are a building society, er w w we see all manner of people coming in here, and the way in which the, they mix very well. Complete strangers come in start chatting to us and to each other, and the the as an area, it seems to pull everyone together. They realize that they have problems and but they seem so willing to stand by each other and the the spirit which I've noticed is very h [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Erm this is this is a pet shop in. And erm how long has this shop been going for? [speaker002:] be sixty one years. [speaker003:] Sixty one years. [speaker002:] Since nineteen twenty six. [speaker003:] And it's always been actually situated at this very shop here on? [speaker002:] exactly in the same place. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] You must have quite a lot of memories. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [] well. A lot has happened. [speaker003:] Has [speaker002:] Er in the years I can assure you. [phone rings] [break in recording] [speaker003:] Right so at the point we broke off, you were saying about things that things have changed quite a lot. What was it like I mean you know you er when you first moved here that was it nineteen twenty six? Er yeah. [speaker002:] As a child? I was a child. At school? Yes. [speaker003:] So that was obviously that was well well before the flats were built So what was it actually like? What kind of housing was it across where the flats are now? I believe they're coming down very shortly. [speaker002:] Er... Yeah they were semis. All semi That's right, semis. Two houses, an entry. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's right. All the way up Road right to Street. And er they were good houses. Er definitely good houses. [speaker003:] So what actually happened that were they were brought down? [speaker002:] Well this is the powers that be isn't it? Er I suppose really the fact that all the streets down Road were er very narrow. And er I think some people might have called it a slum, I suppose they were in a way. But there were some very good people lived down those streets. And they cleared the entire area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The area that you can see. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Right to the Boulevard. And erm er built the flats in place. They pulled the houses down, all the shops down. Because there were shops all the way down Boulevard. From here. And er put up the flats. Er it's different. It definitely is different to what it [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] used to be. [speaker003:] Was it I mean when the actual decision was made to ge to get rid of that property that was there prior to the flats, was that a controversial decision or was it welcomed by local people who? [speaker002:] Er be difficult to say because er looking at it purely from the mercenary side of the business, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] If memory serves me correct, there were about say four hundred dwellings. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And they put up the flats, and I think I'm right there, is about seven hundred dwellings. [speaker003:] That's right. Yeah. [speaker002:] So there's more people into the area for the shops. And er looking at it from that light it was er obviously a better proposition. But somehow well I don't know, things didn't seem to work out. Er it was ne it's never been the road that it was prior to that. [speaker003:] Mhm. Yeah what was [speaker002:] Never. Even even er well with the er extra extra houses that you might say, the flats the extra dwellings. And it's never been the road it was. Up unto er I think the flats came about nineteen sixty seven I think. Something like that nineteen sixty seven or nineteen sixty eight, some where around there. But er it's not the road that that that it used to be. Not not business-wise. [speaker003:] Mhm. So w did you used to have quite a lot of customers who came up from th from there [speaker002:] little streets you mean? [speaker003:] Yes [speaker002:] Oh yes. Oh yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Very very many. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean this is personally for our place, and I'm sure all the shops did the same.. They all er traded on the. And er well it was rather good. [speaker003:] And what kind of community was it? [speaker002:] community. [speaker003:] I mean did people tend to know everyone, know each other 's name [speaker002:] stay together er families stay together er I thi mind you I think this is pretty general anywhere, but from what I understand, but er when er sons and daughters marry, they invariably got a house just down the street, near to mum. They didn't move out of the area necessarily. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I won't say none of them did, but the majority stayed together, so you might say this gave this close knit of people all intermingled relative-wise. Which as I say, er it was alright. It maybe not the modern way but it was. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er certainly the area is better from the point of these little streets going. It's just a bit unfortunate in my opinion, what they put up in the place. If they put houses up it'd be a different situation. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But they didn't. They really out. [speaker003:] Mhm. What do you think went wrong? [speaker002:] Don't know.... I wouldn't like to say. [speaker003:] Was it [speaker002:] I don't really know. [speaker003:] Mhm. Was it I mean... was there w I mean wit with regard to custom, Did you get much custom Have you had much custom from people in the flats? [speaker002:] Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean again you know, this is speaking personally of the trade, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] you see, when this thing first happened, er all those old houses, they all had some sort of garden. It was the order of the day. You didn't build a house without a garden. Even if it was neglected, it was they still got a little bit of land. And er of course people er pursue their own hobbies of pets. Or whatever it may be. And this is er obviously ideal for us. Well when they put the flats up, I mean they couldn't keep pets, and they hadn't got a garden, and there was a period of time when er we were rather concerned. From fr the only from the trade angle, the business angle. But like so many other things er, they say, when one door closes another one opens, so the people in the flats, they hadn't got a garden, then they er went to town on er pot plants, indoor plants. In place of a garden. And to offset the the er not being able to have pets as such, pigeons and aviaries of birds and things like that. Erm they went into fish. They could have as many fish tanks as they wanted, so things came right again. And er er well as I say, they took the place of gardens and er birds really. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Birds I'm talking now, not the one in the cage, er the aviaries and the pigeons and the chickens and all that sort of thing. Which they used to have down those streets. So really it's not worked out too badly. I mean er now we're in the second flow of them being emptied again, so I don't know what's gonna happen for the future. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I'll have to wait and see. [speaker003:] Mm. Do you welcome the flats that are c the fact the flats are coming down or are you sorry about it do you feel? [speaker002:] Well I'm er I'm actually sorry about it in and and that. But I think it will be better, better for the area [speaker003:] The flats coming down? [speaker002:] If if they put up dwellings. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Houses as opposed to flats. Er I I personally think that would be better for the area, yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] They whether they're going to do that I I I don't really know yet, not really certain. I can't seem to have have yet heard definitely that this is going to be. I hope it is. [speaker003:] Mhm. How has the actual erm shopping complex when i th the area in general, how has that changed erm over the erm [speaker002:] Over the years? [speaker003:] over the years? I mean obviously for thirty [speaker002:] Well... it was always said that and Street, were the two best shopping Roads in Nottingham. And er I quite believe it. I don't know much about Street, but er I can say this, That on on, if you started at the top, at Road and walked down to er well just past where we are, you could buy anything. And not only just er the cheaper things, quality. You could buy both. It doesn't matter what you wanted, you could buy anything, whether it be as I say, er the cheaper line of goods in whatever category they might fall, or the better class. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er well now I think there's a lot of things that you can't purchase on this road. From what i understand you have got to go out of the road to get to get er well this er well whatever it is, this [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] type of thing. I know there's an awful lot you can get on the road, but not not like it used to be. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So to me it is not as good as it was, as a shopping area. [speaker003:] Mhm. What about for traders I mean, erm obviously you can't really c er why you can't comment on the fact that er how your father o o can you comment on how your father actually moved here in the first place. I mean, what attracted him to? [speaker002:] Ooh that No I couldn't answer that er only the fact that er he'd been in the pet business, all his life. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But not in Nottingham, down in London. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And he moved up here after the war, World War One. and I don't know what he did in between then and er... Oh he had a we had a sweet shop on Road. That's right. But he obviously wanted to get in his own trade, and I assume place came up. For for sale I would imagine. Anyway he moved into here, er like I say, nineteen twenty six. And er been here ever since. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er... Well that's that's really it in that sense [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] erm I mean my father died eventually, and er the business passed on to meself. And now my son's in it with me so hopefully he will carry it on when the time comes. [speaker003:] Mhm. So there's there's the [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker003:] this business has been in erm family hands since nineteen twenty six? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] That's sixty that's for sixty odd years. [speaker002:] That's sixty one years. That's right. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah.. [speaker003:] There must be a lot of pride actually in it then Erm [speaker002:] It is rather nice I must admit. Er it is rather nice [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yes. I must I think it is anyway. But it's now in its you might say third generation mightn't you. Basically. [speaker003:] And has it cha you know the actual erm things that you sell, the actual. The trade itself, how's that changed? [speaker002:] Oh yes yes it's changed yes. Well I mean you've used the word the pet shop. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Or the pet trade. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Er which it is. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But way back er there wasn't such a thing as a pet shop. Not as you know it. They were corn shops, which is what this was. Er that's like I say, chickens, pigeons, and various other animals, obviously rabbits, and dogs and cats. And it was the corn shop that started selling the dog and cat biscuits. Of which there weren't too many. I think there were sufficient but there weren't too many. Er well through progression, through whatever people giving up chickens and pigeons and all that sort of thing. Oh and in case of this particular area, not being allowed to keep them. So you're not a corn shop any more. But of course, this is where you came into the pet shop. You catered for pets. As opposed to well chickens and pigeons. Er and that's how it is today. Dogs and cats, of course birds, and er since the war, erm second war erm in the fifties, er the aquatic side started to take over and er people kept fish. Cold water fish and then er what are generally known as tropical fish which are basically fresh water tropical fish, and maybe this last fifteen years or so, er a step up from that they've gone onto tropical marine fish. Which is how the business is today. And we also did in those old days, pre-war, a big garden trade. Seeds, which were sold loose, and all the fertilizers and er erm accessories that go with it. Plant pot etcetera etcetera. Well again since the war and er probably since about the sixties, the garden centres have taken over a lot on that. But we still sell the seeds and we still sell the fertilizers, but we don't sell them loose any more, they're in fancy packets. Which people seem to prefer. And er again they're... some of the side of the trade that has altered, but the basics are still there. It's still er a a garden shop in that sense. But not s not so No the the stuff is not sold in the same way. We just have packeted seeds like nearly everyone else. And er fertilizers we s tell lo still sell loose and packet them ourselves but it has altered. But the garden side's still there anyway. [speaker003:] Mhm. What about erm how was it that you became involved in erm was it Having looked round the shop erm is it you specialize in is erm fish [speaker002:] Ah I see what you mean yes. Yes. Ah well that was when my son came in the business. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Because prior to that we hadn't sold fish as such. Goldfish yes, and that s a few cold water fish but nothing much. And it was he that er started the er the aquatic side. And er eventually when we got the ne purchased the next door premises, we decided to turn that entirely into aquatic. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er what we term, the front shop, the main shop if you like, that's still the pet shop. And er the next door shop is the aquatic where all the aquatics are. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But it was he that started the aquatic trade. Er it would be about nineteen seventy perhaps. [speaker003:] Mhm. One thing that interests me erm is you know, a lot of the shops haven't survived. You know a lot of the erm shops that have been here for many years [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] eventually disappeared from for various reasons. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] What do you think it is about that's sort of helped this shop survive for so many years. [speaker002:] To keep this one going? [speaker003:] Yeah I mean thi is now sixty one years which [speaker002:] Well I don't really know. Excepting that er... it might be the fact that always have we had what I would term an an outside trade. By that I mean... partially out of this area. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er I mean that was pre-war I'm talking of even there. We had customers that came or we delivered to, out of the area. And we've still got them. So maybe that's kept us going when the times weren't so good as they might be. When the local populants er declined. As I say which came about when they built the flats and filled those. But we've still got those outside er customers. By outside I'm talking obviously of er,, [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Places like that. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And we have got one or two families that still trade with us, their parents traded with us. And their sons or daughters or whatever still trade with us. And that maybe that's the reason. [speaker003:] Mhm. Am I right in saying that you've also been very you've also changed with the times as well, and adjusted [speaker002:] Well we sort of had to obviously. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] We've had to. Erm we could the the the the needs of the customers are different. Er through through the er local scene I suppose. [speaker003:] Mhm. Cos you were saying for example with the fact that the the flats they erm people what they actually wanted to buy from here, erm differed from what Yeah. [speaker002:] that fr the people in the houses had? That's right. It was still basically pets, but a different type of pets. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] Or a a different type of livestock maybe better word cos i don't know You can't really count chickens and pigeons as in the way of pets. Although they are, they must be to the people concerned but I mean, a pet's usually a dog, cat or bird isn't it? When you say I've got a pet, whatever. [speaker003:] Yeah. Mhm. Moving on to look at the fact I mean you had erm and it isn't the fact that you're still working in the shop, you're still helping the shop, you've had forty years in which you actually lived here didn't you? about forty years? [speaker002:] Yes yes, forty years. [speaker003:] Were they were they happy years? [speaker002:] Ooh they were. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Definitely. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] And did you get to know a lot of people in the obvious well do you still know a lot of people in the area. [speaker002:] Yes er the older people er erm and some of their erm children. Which are now sort of grown up but er known them all my life. And the older people er er I've obviously known those mor nearly all my life as well. Oh yes. happy days here. I've no regrets. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean we were brought up here. Didn't do me any harm. [speaker003:] What kind of community has it been, having lived here having had so many years in which you've actually had I mean ei either lived here for forty years plus erm from many other years you've actually been working here in addi in addition. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Erm what kind of community had there been here I mean, erm is there mu er is there much community spirit in would you say or not? [speaker002:] I think there is. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] You're talking of today? [speaker003:] Yeah today. [speaker002:] Yes. I think there is probab [speaker003:] Compared with previously. [speaker002:] Yeah probably are. [speaker003:] Compared with pre [speaker002:] Probably not so much as previously. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] But I think there is a community spirit here, yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But I I think No I I I wouldn't have thought that it er was as much as er er as it was previously. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] No. I wouldn't have thought so. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But certainly there is a there is the s the spirit here. And without a doubt. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] But then see people live live different lives today. Er and again I don't know er it's only my thoughts that everybody's in such a hurry today through pressure of this and pressure of that. Perhaps they don't have time to stand and talk like we used to. Erm and that may be the reason. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That you've got to get on with your thing and get your shopping or whatever it is, done quick to get home to do whatever they do at home. Whereby you know going back a bit it was quite the accepted thing to stand and have a chat for ten, twenty minutes and er life was at a slower pace. Which it is I would assume anywhere. I don't think it's er anything to do with area or a this town, this city, or this [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean people move faster now, they don't have time. I don't know why they don't have time, but er they don't. [speaker003:] Mhm. the actual flats gonna be coming down. Do you think that they erm were an asset or or or not to the actual community when they ac I mean erm looking at how things were in prior to the flats being built and and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] erm the couple of years since, I mean have they What impact have they had on the area in general, if any? [speaker002:] The flats? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well I don't know er [speaker003:] Well you j you're sitting [speaker002:] In all In in all fairness they're not in my opinion, not exactly the greatest thing to look at in the country are they? They don't sort of spur you one with, Oh dear look at that, isn't that nice? I mean it's a dwelling I think it's fine they're very nice, so I understand. But looking purely at the outside bit, If they'd have had some whitewash on I think they'd have looked better. Quite honestly. But er I think that has not improved it. I think perhaps, as I say, I'd have had some colour. It might had er i i it could well have er given a different appearance to people coming through. The passers by, not the people that live here. Er but that's just I say, that is my opinion. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Erm they really do look a little bit drab, a little bit grey. Well they are grey looking cos that's the colour of them. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er I would have thought they would have presented themselves better, had they have been er well a little bit more colour about it. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean you get normal houses, I know they're only red bricks, but they've got different coloured doors and different coloured window frames and things like that. Which er... well to me it looks nice. But they are all the same. The grey had taken the place of the red bricks and as you can look out now, you can see them. All the windows are the same colour. And assumably all the doors are the same colour. It'er nothing to to show out or stand out or look rather pleasant. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean as I say very very good. [speaker003:] Mhm. Have you had much contact with anyone in people in the flats [speaker002:] In what way? [speaker003:] As a trader a [speaker002:] Customers? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Quite a lot. [speaker003:] Mhm. And although it's quite easy to it's quite difficult to Sorry, it's quite difficult to erm to generalize, I mean how have you found the people compared erm people ever discuss the flats or [speaker002:] Not really, no. No not really. [speaker003:] I mean do you find most people happy contented living there or [speaker002:] Yes they seem just ordinary people [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to me. Yeah. [speaker003:] mhm. [speaker002:] They're quite appear quite Well I don't know whether they're happy living in the flats or not but they seem quite normal people, they talk about the normal thing that people always talked about. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And er. No they I think they're the same type of people by and large, as as we had here before. Really. [speaker003:] Do [speaker002:] er they seem just ordinary people. [speaker003:] Whereabout I mean certainly in recent years anyway, 's had a lot of erm bad publicity in the press and certainly in the press and [speaker002:] Oh yes. [speaker003:] T V. I mean how far do you think the publicity that the area's had has been... from your considerable experience would be [speaker002:] I Yes. I think er it did get a very bad name. But it is I think it is far different now to what it was... five five or six, seven years ago. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That er when you get these these er er reputations or whatever it is, it takes an awful lot of living down. And I think a lot of people outside the area,... perhaps do not accept it. You know, it's er it's got the bad publicity that it had and it's still got it, well I don't think it has to be. It's far far different I I I think to what it was as I say, er well five, ten years ago. [speaker003:] What are the difference that the last five, ten years? What what kind of difference have round in ten years? [speaker002:] Oh [cough] I think the people are different, somehow or other. I know they're probably the same people that lived here then but er There's all this talk about problems and troubles er we we've never noticed it. On the other hand, at six o'clock at night I've gone home. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So I can't speak for that obviously. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er they seem quite ordinary people to me. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] people I know and the only ones I really know are those that come in the shop. And they're they're just people. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And they've got the usual moans and groans like everybody else including myself. I've got my moans and groans, but haven't we all. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] But er you know the ordinary people. [speaker003:] Mm. So how are things you know, said that in the last few say, in five years, that things have changed. What k what kind what's changed in the short time are the things Wh when I've been talking to them about the publicity you said that, The last few years there's there has been [speaker002:] It's [speaker003:] very recent there has been changes. [speaker002:] It There there is a difference. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] There is a difference now. And to to the better. [speaker003:] So the thing you're saying you're saying that people [speaker002:] Ooh yes. Yes to what they were. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. So you've er you're pretty hopeful about the future? [speaker002:] I am if they put houses up there yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] that's purely a mercenary business thing obviously. [speaker003:] What about for the overall area, I mean, do you s do you think that that what kind of future do you think has?... Cos I mean [speaker002:] Well er I would think erm [speaker003:] Both for the I'm talking about both for the from the trader's point of view and also for the also [speaker002:] Yes. Er I would think it should have a decent future, myself. If you know providing things keep going along the lines [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] that er I understand they are going to go along. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Oh yes I think so. [speaker003:] What where are you I've missed that actually the the quite interesting just to briefly ask you about th erm When we s when I saw you last time, you were telling me something about actually erm a bit about yourself how what kind of person actually saying, you know, personality, what kind of things Wh how would you actually describe yourself? say if I said to you, Erm what kind of person are you? [speaker002:] Me? [speaker003:] What kind of q Yeah what are the kin what are the kind of qualities that have helped you get by over the years? [speaker002:] Just an ordinary person. I don't think I've got any special qualities at all. I'm sure I haven't. No er take life as it comes you know. times, we've all had bad times [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and doubtless we'll have some more bad times but er No no. I think that I'm just an ordinary I hope I am anyway. I would like to think I am just an ordinary person. Er I don't really know anything special about me. Had a normal upbringing, normal schooling. Normal early work life. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I mean [speaker003:] What did you do in your. You was that [speaker002:] When I first started work? [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] Well like any other shop lad, and although worked with me father I was still a shop lad. Er out on the shop bike, and cleaning the windows and all that sort of thing. With everybody else who worked in shops did the same thing. All the juniors. We didn't start at the top in those days. And work your way in. up or down. You started at the bottom. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I didn't regret it. They were happy days. [speaker003:] And wh when you when you look at your actual erm schooldays, etcetera schooldays [speaker002:] Oh yes round here. Oh they were good. [speaker003:] What school is it you went to? [speaker002:] I went to. Which is not called that now, I went to Road. And then after that I went to a public school but er to those years er I just followed the pattern. After, that was that, and then on to Road. Er that was just normal schooldays schooldays. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I don't regret them. Not one little bit. [speaker003:] is this erm looking at the a Moving on to look at the erm this area for actual for traders and so on, is it as attractive erm for traders to actually move into the area, as it was previously or or not? Erm [speaker002:] Well That's a bit difficult er I would probably think not. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I would probably think not. Er quite so today as it used to be. Er I'm only basing on that there are one or two empty shops [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] around. Fortunately not too many on this little patch we're on. I understand further up the road there are. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Well that must mean something. Must do. [speaker003:] Mhm. Well do you think actually so to make it more What could be done to actually make it more attractive to traders? [speaker002:] To traders? [speaker003:] Yeah. Cos obviously [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker003:] you can cos you can contrast it with when it was a very successful area. [speaker002:] Mm. Well. [speaker003:] You could get virtually anything at one stage. [speaker002:] You could. [speaker003:] So what what could you do to kind of [speaker002:] Er I don't really know. It would be asking too much to bring all the shops back on [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] patch, obviously. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] And make it one long road of shops. That may have been the reason. That may have been the decline that they chopped all these shops out, and so er... well as far as this side of the road, right hand side coming from the city end. Er all of sudden you get the Boulevard and the shops stop. Whether that is it, I don't know but it could well be. You stop there. You don't go any further. And I know I don't really know. Not to be able to answer that one. To make it more attractive. Perhaps if we get dwellings as I say, up here. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] These small small houses again, yes that could that could have er an impact I think. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] It could well do. It might bring more people into the area. [speaker003:] Mhm. other [speaker002:] Who do the shopping like. [speaker003:] Mhm. So actually quite a few factors, what actually goes there the flats could be quite an important factor for the area. [speaker002:] I think so. I really do. Yes. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I I really do think that. [speaker003:] Mhm. Is th another area that I didn't cover actually when when we were looking at the flats was erm, some people have s have around said that erm flats when they were first up in the first few years, erm were a contrast with the later years, in that erm they didn't have many of the problems, Many of the problems associated with the flats now,didn we were not in existence in the early days of the flats. Do you would you say [speaker002:] No I don't think they were. If they were they didn't manifest theirself. [speaker003:] Mhm. So [speaker002:] I would think er very little er problems er if that's the word. Er as you say, about the first eight years. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Er it's something like that. Ten years perhaps. No there were just erm a load of flats across there instead of houses. No. [speaker003:] Mhm. So is it have you idea what's actually changed why [speaker002:] Why? [speaker003:] things were okay early on and [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker003:] Was it a fairly sudden thing or A rapid change? [speaker002:] It probably [speaker003:] Was it sudden or fairly slow change? [speaker002:] manifested itself perhaps, over a period of... three, four years. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Or five five, six years perhaps. Something like that. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] The reasons why are I I d I don't know. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] as I say, the majority of the people whom I come in contact with, they're just people. Just ordinary people. [speaker003:] Mhm. So so you felt that [speaker002:] the could be anywhere. [speaker003:] Mhm. So am I right in saying, you find the people in the flats fine. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] No problem at all. [speaker002:] The people I've come in contact with, definitely. No trouble at all. [speaker003:] straight into finish now most of the areas. Erm that started and let's look at the actual future. Erm [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] So looki looking ahead, erm how do you see the future for this business. Do you I mean do you think you can [speaker002:] Oh dear. Yeah. Well [speaker003:] I mean you start started going sixty one years. Erm so [speaker002:] I er [speaker003:] What about it's chances to of of century [speaker002:] Going the next [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Of ge of getting to a hundred years old? [speaker002:] I would think that's rather unlikely. Er [speaker003:] You think that's rather unlikely? [speaker002:] Well I do because er... As I say, my son more or less runs it now. And he hasn't any children. So there you go from there. And er [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It'd be nice er but I shouldn't think he will be having a family now. So after he, there isn't anyone [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] to carry it on. [speaker003:] Mhm. I'm right in saying that, he's he you know he's had er many He's got h he he's likely to have many years yet isn't he, working for [speaker002:] Oh he's got er yeah he's got quite a few. Er he could well I'll be eighty six. Oh he could take us into the two thousand. Yes. [speaker003:] That'd be quite an achievement really. And you could take into account the fact that [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] you started in the year of the general strike in nineteen twenty six. [speaker002:] Now that's a thought yeah. No I've not looked at it that way. [speaker003:] Mm. You mean you've never thought. [speaker002:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] occurred to me that. Yes we did didn't we? Yes. [speaker003:] I mean [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] Do you do you think erm your father when he started the shop in twenty six, would ever imagined that it could possibly go on to the the end of the century? [speaker002:] Ah well I don't know. He might he probably had his thoughts. Can't remember him ever talking to me about this. But he probably did have his thoughts. Bearing in mind that although not here as I said, but he he he worked for his father. And his father worked for his father. So the the Yes it's been going back a the the name, the firm in that sense I think goes back a lot of years. But I say, as far as Nottingham's concerned, er er only since er like I say nineteen twenty six. But er yes he probably did have thoughts on that. [speaker003:] I think we'll end on that one. Thank you thanks very much for your help. [speaker002:] That's quite alright. [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker002:] You're welcome. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] [praying] We pray for the leaders of the government throughout the world... that they may have a desire and be unselfish. We ask and for the younger nations help to grow to maturity... Help us that wherever we may go we may amen [] [praying] Amen []... [chair:] Thank you. The prayer this afternoon is for doctors and hospitals. [Jean:] [praying] Most merciful father who has told us to love you with all our strength and glorify you in our bodies, we commend to you for your continual blessings the hospitals of our land and those who serve in them... prosper all that is being done in the healing of the sick, the conquest of disease and the training of doctors and nurses that your will may be done for the relief of suffering and the making of lives whole through Jesus Christ our Lord amen [] [speaker001:] [praying] Amen []... [chair:] [praying] Oh Lord comfort and secure all those who are in trouble... in sorrow... or in need... all those who are sick, especially we ask today for Mary who is in hospital and I understand has had an operation. We also pray for Francis and Len who Fr er Len also is in hospital. And also... I hear Mrs isn't well so I can... need to pray for Mrs... and I think also today we should pray for Mrs who I know, at this very time as Remembrance Sunday is coming up, she will be very sad... so we particularly ask for prayers for her.... And that, by your blessing upon them and those who try to help them, they may find peace and encouragement through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen []. [speaker001:] [praying] Amen [] [chair:] Now could I ask for all the members to say the Mothers' Union prayer, the nineteen seventy four one which you will find on page three.... [speaker001:] [praying] Almighty God our heavenly father who made marriage to be a source of blessing to mankind... we thank you for the joys of family life... pour out of us your holy spirit that we may truly love and serve you. Bless all who are married and every parent and child. May we know your presence and peace in our homes. Fill them with your love and use them for your glory. Bless the members of the Mothers' Union throughout the world... unite us in prayer and worship, in love and service that, strengthened by your grace, we may seek to do your will through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen []... [chair:] Now I think it just leaves me to give the notices out. Erm we've got our Bring and Buy later and I see everybody's remembered to bring something, thank you very much.... And erm also I have to tell you er our next meeting will be our Christmas party. So would you all please bring a plate of goodies? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [chair:] Thank you. And now it is my duty to introduce Doctor... and erm I think you said you were talking to us about yourself... and erm also a little bit about your holidays? [Kate:] That's right, yes. [chair:] And [Kate:] I'll stand up unless my legs start to ache and then I'll sit down again.... Well thank you very much for inviting me to come. I've come to Saint Mary's and I've been here er just over a year now and erm Rosie collared me into speaking to you [chair:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] as I was speaking at erm a neighbours and friends group at my parents church and Rosie heard about it and she said will I come and speak to you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] Can you all hear me? [speaker001:] Yes thank you. [Kate:] Right. First of all I thought I'd tell you who I was... I'm a G P in er in New Harlow, in Bush Fair, and I've been there for nearly three years now. I am, I was born in Essex, in... in hospital and my family all come from Essex, and I was brought up in Upminster and I was very fortunate in that I was born into a christian home and I had christian parents and christian grandparents... and christian aunts and uncles... and I went to church from the time I was about two or three weeks old. And this wasn't an Anglican church, erm it was a Baptist church, and when I was seven I understood that Jesus had died for me and then I asked him into my heart and when I was twelve I was baptized, which is the equivalent really of being confirmed.... I was a Sunday School teacher erm when I was in my secondary school and I wondered what God would want me to do with my life when I left school and I thought maybe he wants me to be a missionary and I thought it was only teachers and doctors that could be missionaries... I was wrong wasn't I? But that's what I thought, so I thought I'll try and be a doctor. So I did my O levels and my A levels and I then went to the London Hospital, which is in Whitechapel, from the age of eighteen until I was twenty three. And God was very good to me there, I wasn't the brightest in the year and I had to work very hard, but God always... was with me as I always passed my exams much to my surprise.... What you do for the first two years is you learn all the theory of being a doctor and you go and you have to... between eight of you, learn all about a body... you have one body between of you and you learn all about all the muscles and the nerves [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] over a year... and you also have to do lots of experiments, you have to learn to take blood pressure on each other, learn to take blood from each other [speaker001:] Oh dear. [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and erm I, I fainted when someone tried to take blood from me because they couldn't find where to do it and they were [speaker001:] Oh! [Kate:] [LAUGHTER] digging all over my arm [] [speaker001:] Oh. [Kate:] [LAUGHTER] and then we had to do experiments on each other like putting tubes through our noses down into our stomachs [speaker001:] Ooh [Kate:] and finding out what, what our er stomachs were like, whether the, the liquid in there is acidic, whether it's an acid... and do you know the girls were braver than the boys, the boys wouldn't let anyone do that to them. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Women are brave, that's why [Kate:] And erm we had to learn erm how to do heart tracings, ECGs, on each other and er all sorts of exciting things like that. And then, after two years, we were allowed on to the wards in our white coats and we had to erm find out about the patients and initially we were all very slow and we were given two hours to talk to a patient to find out all about them. Now I'm a G P we have ten minutes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] And I can remember one of my first patients I had to take blood from, and it took me quite a few goes on that poor lady but she's still friends with me so she's forgiven me.... We get sent all over erm the country, southern England I, I was sent to different hospitals to learn about different things, to learn about erm psychiatry and obstetrics... and medicine... and then erm you also do some er training back in your own hospital, but it's not big enough for all the doctors to stay there all the time... well the baby doctors. And then, in the last year, in the fifth year, you have to do and pass all the exams. In the fourth year I was lucky enough to be able to go to Kenya and find out what life was like in a hospital there... and we had a missionary from my church that was a teacher in Kenya with the African Inland Mission and I went to, really I was nursing erm and helping out there. Their erm conditions were very basic, and I took two fluffy hot water bottles which were going to be used as incubators for the premature babies, that's all they had, and I took out lots of needles and the surgical gloves... and a special instrument for operations. So I went laden out, I'd never flown before, and I went to Kenya... and life is very very different from hospitals in this country. The wards were very very bare and the families look after the patients, they come in and give them food and erm do a lot more for them than er they do in this country and erm there were two wards out of eight for tuberculosis, for T B, cos that's a very big problem out in Kenya. Erm and on a Friday all the beds went out onto the grass outside the wards for the wards to be cleaned [speaker001:] Oh! [Kate:] so they were all emptied out of everybody. Fortunately it didn't rain, otherwise they would've all got very wet. Some of the erm people are in hospital there for problems that we don't have in this country. They have their local medicine and the witch doctors try and cure them of their diseases first... so they would even bore holes into people's skulls to let the spirits out for headaches and things like that. Also there were things called pangas which were knives erm and the we saw quite a few tribal incidents and people were injured from knife attacks. And sad things like children falling into fires and because in the mud huts you have the fire in the centre of the hut and it's quite easy for the children to fall in... and there was one little boy there who had been there for over a year and they kept trying to erm heal up all his skin wounds.... We also went down into the valley, into, we were on the edge of the Rift Valley, and there there were a different sort of people. Wher near our hospital they all liked to wear western clothes, they were a bit out of date but er the there, there were lots of T-shirts and s and dresses worn by the people, there was even a Blackpool T-shirt, I'm not sure how they got in the shops. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] Erm but down in the Rift Valley the Pocot people were a very different tribe, they wore leather, little tiny leather skirts and cowrie shells... and nothing here, and it was very very hot, and they were a nomadic people who erm moved about with their animals... but because, when I was there, there'd been a very bad drought, they'd had to erm just beg really for food. So that was a contrast from the people near the hospital where I was and, what happened was, we used to do a little service and then anybody that wanted to be seen used to come along and we needed an interpreter and it was a bit like a surgery really, and they would come with any problems, and anyone who was severely ill we would then take back in the Landrover back to the hospital. We used to have to use a generator for our electricity and that used to go off at ten o'clock at night so if there was an operation that needed doing, there were two car batteries that were turned on and you used to have to do it by those. [speaker001:] Ooh [Kate:] So that was different. And the, the water to bathe in came from the local river and er it was very very sandy and it just looked like mud that you were having to get in and do your bath. [speaker001:] Ooh [Kate:] The water for drinking they used to collect from the gutters and erm it used to go into big barrels and then they used to boil it for a long while. The meat used to have to be pressure cooked for four hours to make it tender enough to eat! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] Erm there were lots of fresh fruit and vegetables and we had lemon trees and avocado trees in our garden. So that was quite an experience and quite a contrast from er life in good old England.... After I'd finished I went and did six months in Banbury in er Oxfordshire er doing surgery. I was just helping out and erm learning the basics and I erm came and, appeared in the Christmas pantomimes the fairy godmother of the bedpan [speaker001:] Oh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and when they used to rub the bedpan out I would appear. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] That was good fun. We did that to all the staff, it was a sort of Cinderella story. And then I went to Hereford for six months and I did er six months of medicine, and that was a long way from home in Essex and er we all sort of er mucked in and er made our own entertainment and cooked for each other and that erm was quite a good time. And then I spent six months in Peterborough doing paediatrics, erm working in the special care unit with all the premature babies... with incubators and not fluffy hot water bottles [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] that time. And that was really amazing to see these little tiny scraps that were twenty three or twenty four weeks, so that they were twenty six weeks early... is that right? Sixteen weeks early, and er they er really didn't seem to stand a chance erm of living but a lot of them did and that was amazing. And then all the, all the little children, some of them with very serious illnesses, but seeing how brave they were on the wards, it was a very moving six months. And then I got on a G P scheme in Crawley in Sussex and I spent three years there. I did er geriatrics... obstetrics and gynaecology, psychiatry and casualty, and then I did a year as a G P trainee. I think erm casualty was the worst in that you had very very long hours to do... erm sometimes you were on call from five o'clock in the evening until nine o'clock the following morning, and you did that for a whole week... so by the end of the time you really did feel... inhuman, you were very very tired. But I think probably the most disturbing was some of the poor people in, in psychiatry... erm and er that was very hard work because you seemed to take the problems home with you and you kept thinking about some of the conditions that people had. And then I came here which was quite amazing... because I didn't want to come here... I wanted to be er like James Herriott and go somewhere really rural [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and I wanted to erm... you know, just travel from village to village... but erm it was quite amazing how God said you're coming to Harlow. I wasn't looking for a job because I hadn't finished my training, but er a friend of mine has h her father is a G P in Loughton, and he erm was at a meeting with the senior partner of my practice, and they said do you know of anybody who's interested in a partnership? And they suggested me, but I said I didn't think it was a good idea because I hadn't finished [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and they said we'll wait for you. And I said well you haven't even met me. Said no but you come from Essex so you can't be too [LAUGHTER] bad []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] And I came and, and I didn't think Harlow was for me because I, it was all very built up and lots of roundabouts... but the people, the partners were so lovely and er I saw some of the patients and I thought they were very lovely too, so this is where I've been. Our practice has got five doctors erm and Doctor erm Elaine, who comes here, she works for two evenings a week with us, and we have eight thousand patients on our list, and erm... sometimes we're very very busy, and sometimes like in the summer we're not so busy. Everybody seems to have flu at the moment [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and they're coming in with the colds and the shivers and not feeling very well. Erm... but it's a, it's good. Erm like any job you have your ups and your downs, it's very nice when you see people getting better or you've followed somebody through their pregnancy and they've got a lovely bouncy baby at the end of it... and sometimes it's sad when you find out that somebody has got a serious illness or you're looking after people where somebody has died and it, it's very hard for the people left behind to cope and so... that's very difficult sometimes. Sometimes I get very cross with the patients, sometimes they, when you're on call, they ring you up at three in the morning and say they're constipated! [speaker001:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] An and they ring up and they say they've had a cold all week and they can't put up with it a minute longer [speaker001:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and so sometimes the, the calls do seem unreasonable but you shouldn't get cross, and when you go and see them sometimes you realize why they're anxious because something that might seem quite trivial to you... they might know somebody who had similar symptoms and it actually turned out to be meningitis or something... so you're then able to put their minds at rest. But erm it's quite hard if you've been up a lot at night and then you have to go and do the whole of the next day of work, but fortunately our rotas aren't too bad so we're never on two nights in a row compared with the hospital which was quite a lot harder work.... Right, erm... er... then I, what did I think I'd say after that?... Erm I thought I'd tell you a bit about what I did apart from medicine. Erm I like doing water colour painting and I've been on two holidays down in Cornwall and I've done that... and that's very relaxing erm and it seems, you seem to forget about everything else, and that's quite good fun er but erm obviously if it rains all your, all your colours get washed away, but that's good fun. And I like erm... erm knitting and crocheting and I like cycling and I like running and erm I like walking... and erm I was very fortunate to be able to go to Nepal the other week. Erm I went er at the end of September and I did white water rafting, going down in a raft er seven to a boat, and going over the rapids wearing a [speaker001:] Ooh [Kate:] wearing a crash helmet and erm a buoyancy jacket, cos if you fell in you could hit your head on the rocks. And that was quite an experience. The wa the river water's very very polluted there, so a lot of people got tummy bugs... and we slept er on the side of the river in little tents and erm we didn't discover till afterwards, two things, one thing was that the little holes that we saw in the sand were actually scorpion holes [speaker001:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and another thing was, we went to a crocodile farm, later on, and they said that they release the crocodiles [LAUGHTER] into the river that we [] [speaker001:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] Fortunately we didn't see any. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] But that was good fun, there were eighteen of us, from eight different countries... er Americans and Canadians and Australians and New Zealanders and Dutch and Swiss... and English... and er we had a good time, and then we... and went and did mountain biking in Katmandu [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and we went up and down erm the valley and we saw some of the Hindu temples [speaker001:] Ooh [Kate:] and we saw them burning bodies on the side of the river. And we saw the religious people, the religious men, who erm are the only people that are allowed to smoke drugs, you know, illegal drugs... er things like marijuana, they're actually allowed to because the people view them as half alive and half dead... and that was interesting to see. And we went to one temple... and it got dark whilst we were there, it was called the Monkey Temple, and it's just so many monkeys around, and they just are allowed to run wild, but by the time we got back to our bikes... it was dark and we had to cycle back in the dark without any lights on these unlit, unmade roads and that was quite frightening really. [speaker001:] Mm [Kate:] And you have to pay the little boys to guard your bikes otherwise they let down the tyres. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] And then after that erm I did er an eight day trek erm which was in the Anapurna region of the Himalayas... and that again was sleeping in tents... and we had sherpas, porters, to carry all our luggage apart from things like water that we carried in our day sacks... and they carried four bags each on their backs and my bag weighed about thirty pounds. [speaker001:] Ooh. [Kate:] And they had a strap and they used to carry all the weight on their foreheads and on, and through their necks, and they used to climb, we went up to seventeen and a half thousand feet, and they climbed up with all these bags and they cooked for us and they got river water for us and sometimes they had to walk a kilometre to the river... to go and get the water and then carry it back again er with the band around their heads... and so... initially it seemed quite difficult to accept them doing this for you, but for them it was a job... and erm it was probably the only sort of job that they could get. And they seemed very happy doing it, and they certainly were very muscly [speaker001:] Ooh [Kate:] from all the work they did. [speaker001:] They'd have to be wouldn't they? [Kate:] Yeah. People there are very very poor. We saw lots of people picking up stones erm from around, by the edges of the roads and making little piles and they would then get picked up by lorries and I should think they'd get a, a couple of pence through doing that. All the children know how to beg, they run up to you... and they say hello goodbye because normally when someone says hello and you're going you say goodbye so they think hello goodbye's the greeting [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] and they say... pen... and then they say one rupee, which is a tiny bit of currency, erm and they ask for pens for their school so that they can write at school. And erm there's lots and lots of erm poverty but yet the people do seem fairly content with their lot. There's a lot of rice that's grown so in some areas the people can actually make a good living for themselves. The roads are hairpins, up and down, and they're, they're not tarmacked... and so erm you often saw er buses that had fallen over the sides down into the river or that just were on their side, and that erm that obviously there'd been accidents. Apparently what the erm busmen do is they have to make sure that they get to where they're meant to be on time otherwise they get their pay docked... but they like to stop off and see their friends on the way, and stop and have cups of tea [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] so that, when they have to go, they go very very fast and we were advised if we ever went on a bus to sit on the roof [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] because, because there's a roofrack there and some people do, so that if the bus does turn over at least you've got a chance to jump out. [speaker001:] To jump out mm. [Kate:] And so that was all very interesting. And then, after that erm the trek, we went erm to a national park, the Chitwa National Park. Apparently that was on television last week, they were, did a programme about tigers... don't know whether anyone saw it. And erm we went on an elephant... on a safari... and we looked for erm wild animals and we saw some rhinos, and that was quite good fun. And then we did a jungle trek and erm the guide said if I do that you've come near, if I do that you have to go away, if I do that you've got to quickly [LAUGHTER] climb a tree [] [speaker001:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] if I do that you've all got to scatter... and we were really worried about what we might find. There are tigers there, and there's leopards and... things called sloth bears, a sort of bear, but they're actually quite rare so er we didn't see any of those, apart from the rhinos, we went very very quietly... crawled under the undergrowth and we saw them in a water hole and they were just bathing there. But they've got very very poor eyesight so although they could sense where we were, as we stayed really really still they couldn't see us... so we were quite safe but er we couldn't go any nearer than about ten yards from them... erm because there weren't any suitable trees to climb in case they started to [LAUGHTER] chase us []. [speaker001:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] And then erm one afternoon we went in a dug out canoe erm to look for crocodiles and we did actually see them on the banks of the river as we were going down in our canoe, so that was quite exciting. And on our way to the crocodile farm erm we past some beautiful countryside, and on the way back one of the two jeeps broke down and after an hour they decided we would have to leave it. So we came back in the dark, there were fifteen of us in th this jeep bouncing up and down [LAUGHTER] so that was quite fun too []. Erm our last few days we were meant to see Everest and the beautiful Himalayas but the monsoon didn't er finish so weren't ab able to see that but we understood they were there somewhere. The other exciting thing was the leeches... er because the monsoon hadn't finished there were lots of leeches around, and I'd imagined these huge things that were going to suck me to death, but they're actually little, like, just very very tiny little worms, about erm an inch long and very thin and what they do is they sit on leaves and things and as you walk by they get flicked on to your boots or your socks and then they wiggle their way in... and they, you can't feel them there, but what they do is they suck your blood until they explode [speaker001:] Ooh! [Kate:] so you er you take your shoe your socks off and you find you've got a, some blood in your socks, and that's where a leech had been. But erm I think I had lots of people praying for me back here because I didn't have any problem with them... and I was the only one who didn't. But there's two ways of getting them off if they do latch on to you, one is to burn them off with a cigarette or a match... and the other way is to use rock salt, and if you put rock salt on them they then just come off so that's a little bit erm more humane for the leeches but it depends what you feel about them really as to whether you want to give them another chance. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] When I came back to England I was very humbled really to erm because I arrived in Nepal three hours before that crash... and erm a lot of people had thought I'd died in that crash and erm... the patients had thought I'd died as well and they had to put a big notice outside to say that I'd been alright, they had lots of people ringing up. And it just made me realize how fragile life is and how God has got his hand on you... and erm how he protected me from erm being killed in that plane crash because it could easily have been my plane [speaker001:] Mm [Kate:] and erm it just makes you put everything into perspective. So that's one of my hobbies, I don't know whether I'll be going to Nepal or anywhere like that again, but it, I've certainly got er lots of happy memories of that experience and er I've brought erm a photo album erm with some of my pictures in if anyone would like to have a look [speaker001:] Oh yes [Kate:] and I've also got one album erm with a few pictures in from when I was in Kenya which was in nineteen eighty four... so, you know, if anyone wants to see what I looked like in there... I had longer hair [LAUGHTER] and I was wearing a white coat... so they're very welcome.... The last thing I thought I would [cough] talk about was... my christian beliefs... why I am here today... why I am a doctor... and what God means to me.... Being brought up in a christian home isn't enough to make you a christian. You can... you go to church every Sunday, sing the choruses or the hymns, listen to what the man has to say or the lady has to say at the front, and it can just go over your head and it can mean nothing to you apart from something that you believe might be true. But what you have to do is actually realize that Jesus died for you... you have to be sorry for all the things that you've done wrong... and you need to ask him to come into your life and to be your own saviour. And that means that from then on your life isn't your own, you don't do what you want to do, you do what you believe God is telling you to do and you try to live by what the bible says and you pray about any important decision you make... and then, when God has shown you what the right thing is to do, even when you're going through very hard times, you know that you're there because that's where God wants you to be and that gives you faith to carry on.... I thought er that God wanted me to be a doctor... and I didn't have a place to go to, I took my A levels... having had five chances [cough] of places to be a doctor and everybody saying no, we don't want you... and erm I had everybody praying for me at church and quite miraculously at the end of the August, when I should start in the September, I had a phone call at half past ten at night from a surgeon at the London Hospital asking me to go for an interview the next day. And I went and he offered me erm to start the next month and I just couldn't believe it. But I knew that that was where God wanted me to be because it was such a miracle. And when I arrived I wouldn't've been surprised if my name hadn't been on the list but it was there.... When I, when it came to exam time, I used to work until midnight, have three hours sleep and get up at three in the morning to carry on revising er because I wasn't brilliant and I couldn't remember everything... and it was hard work. But I tried always to have a quiet time with God before I started my revision that morning. And God was faithful and I passed my exams.... Then, showing me... erm his promises in the bible, when things are, are hard... then that's when you look to God and his word more, and that's when he's able to show you things from the bible because you're in a state of wanting to know. When everything's going well for you it's easy to forget that God's there with you, because life's so busy and so much fun. But when times are hard, when you're upset by things that er are wrong with patients or by things that have happened to you, then it's nice to know that God's always there for you.... When I was twelve, and I got baptized, erm a lady gave me a little text and it was from Joshua... chapter one and it was verse nine... and it says [reading] have I not commanded you be strong and courageous... do not be terrified, do not be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go [] and that's a verse that I've been able to... remember and to thank God for on so many different occasions... all through my training as a doctor and it's, all the promises in the bible are absolutely true and you can rely on them because it's not a book written by men but it's a book written by God. Another one was in Isaiah chapter forty... and er God says here [reading] do you not know, have you not heard the Lord is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no-one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary and young men stumble and fall but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength, they will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint []. And I knew what it was like to be tired and weary, but I knew that... if I trusted in God and spent time with him then he would renew my strength and I could carry on.... The people in Nepal are Hindus or Buddhists and they believe that they can get to God by... going and praying lots of times, chanting, putting special dye on their cheeks, on their erm foreheads and making sacrifices. They erm bring fruit and crops and things and lay them before a god that they can see before them. But in John chapter fourteen... it says, [reading] Jesus said I am the way and the truth and the light. No-one comes to the father except through me []. And that's something that christians believe they have... over all other faiths, that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. Some people think that if you... lead a good life then you can get to Jesus and get to heaven but Jesus said that you have to come through him.... In erm Romans chapter three and verse twenty seven... it says... that er... Jesus died for our sins and... I'd just like to leave this thought with you, that n er just like me, when I could have died the other week in that plane crash, that none of us knows how long we've got on this life and, however long or short it is, there's no time like the present to get right with God if you, if you aren't... and the only way to do that is through Jesus. I did that when I was seven and different people can do it at any time. Jesus said now is the acceptable time. If you do want to ask me anything about this I've got some little booklets or I'm sure some other people here could talk to you about it. But that's the thought that I would really like you to take with you today. Thank you. [speaker001:] That's very nice. [chair:] Lovely. Thank you very much. Oh it's really lovely wasn't it? [speaker001:] Yes very interesting, yes. [chair:] Is there any questions anybody like to ask er Kate anything?... Cynthia can you think of anything to ask? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You talked about pressure cooking the meat for four hours [Kate:] Yes. [speaker001:] did you ever find out what meat it was? [Kate:] Oh yes we bought it ourselves. It was mainly goat meat. Yes. [speaker001:] It's interesting because I was in Nottingham a few weeks ago and actually on Nottingham market they sell a lot of goat meat [Kate:] Right. [speaker001:] and it said [LAUGHTER] genuine goat []. [LAUGHTER] Did it pong? I didn't get close enough. [LAUGHTER] I thought she was very brave wasn't she? Yes very brave But like she said... erm the Lord was with her wasn't he? Mm And erm, we did pray for you, several of us prayed for you when we knew you were going to Nepal. [Kate:] Thank you very much. [speaker001:] Was there any christianity in Nepal or Kenya? [Kate:] In, in Kenya there's a, a lot of erm... [tut] er missionaries. K Kenya has more missionaries than any other country in Africa. Erm the Africa Inland Mission has many many missionaries there, there are a lot of American missionaries there... erm and there are a lot of new churches being built and a lot of people are becoming christians in Kenya. Nepal is different, that's erm very very much erm influenced by the Hindu and the Buddhist ways, a lot of people believe in both [speaker001:] Mm [Kate:] and erm I don't believe that there are many christians there. Jo 's in teaching isn't she? [speaker001:] Yes [Kate:] I wasn't able to see her but erm I, I believe the work is very very hard erm in Nepal and I certainly didn't meet any christians whilst I was there.... [speaker001:] Do you know what the difference is between the Hindus and the Buddhists? [Kate:] Erm... not at, not in detail. They do actually share some of the gods [speaker001:] Yes. [Kate:] some of the gods erm they believe in erm both... erm but certainly there were Hindu and Buddhist temples and erm people used to go to both. [speaker001:] But they manage to live happily side by side? They don't [Kate:] Yes, there's no animosity, a lot of people believe in both and go to both temples. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [Kate:] So erm [speaker001:] Well that's that's a good point in [LAUGHTER] You talked about being erm... you know, if God wanted you to be a missionary you'd got to be a, a sort of teacher or a doctor, do you see your, your role in Harlow as, as a missionary role... or as a doctor? [Kate:] Erm I like to think that erm you can be a missionary anywhere. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [Kate:] Erm sometimes I do find being in Harlow very hard erm and there's a lot of unemployment, there's a lot of depression, there are a lot of one parent families and er the children ha er in one family they've all got different dads [speaker001:] Mm mm [Kate:] and erm sometimes that is very hard and I think you can be a missionary anywhere. Erm I do look for opportunities to talk to people about God but I, I certainly think that you have to wait for the right opportunity because, if people are ill or very down, then it often isn't the right time when they're vulnerable erm to try and erm... talk to them about something. But yes I'm sure you can be a missionary in Harlow... and I'd like to think that... maybe I could erm increase that work and maybe have an afternoon a week where I could talk to people about God, but I think there's not really time in a ten minute surgery slot. [speaker001:] Do you find it difficult, I mean I, I, I talk to people who erm work with, you know, Relate, marriage guidance and they find it quite difficult not to be able to bring their christian faith in when they are sort of counselling people. Er presumably doctors also find this difficult do they? [Kate:] It's very hard not to put your own views on to other people's lifestyles. Often there's a lot of, that people erm do or don't do that you, you can't erm go along with when people are wanting terminations of pregnancy or, or they're thinking of leaving their husbands and going off with somebody else... then you just have to listen to what they say and put the facts as you see them in front of them. Occasionally you can say you think they're being stupid or have they thought about other things... but at the end of the day people are answerable... erm for their own decisions I feel and, if I have an opportunity I'll tell them what I think, but er if people aren't wanting your opinion then you can't really give it [speaker001:] No. [Kate:] I think. [speaker001:] You're working in one of the, of the less affluent parts of Harlow aren't you? Very [Kate:] Yes. [speaker005:] much so, yeah. [Kate:] But they've all got videos [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Kate:] They may not, they may not have carpets on the floor, but they've all got videos. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] It's sad isn't it? It's interesting isn't it, you know, I mean I, I come across a lot of people who are poor [Kate:] Yes [speaker001:] sort of well we can't pay this that and the other... and the thing that really gets me and, and, you know, I, I've tried to reason it through so many times... but top er top of these mums' sort of shopping list is these disposable nappies Ooh that gets my goat too and, and they really really get me [LAUGHTER] you sort of say well what do you spend your money on []? Ten pounds a week on disposable nappies. [Kate:] And cigarettes. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well of course you see when you, when you reason it through lots of these people, they haven't got washing machines, they haven't got drying facilities Mm. and I suppose, you know, they're perhaps better off buying these disposable nappies. Perhaps the babies don't get sore bottoms now. But they're causing a they're causing a problem aren't they? They are cos I've heard that on the television. Yeah, yeah they don't break down do they? disposable nappies no. No. They're causing problems everywhere. And we pulled in in a car park in Brandon the other week and there in the middle of a car park was this [LAUGHTER] 'orrible nappy []. It must, it must cause disease and, and, and trouble mustn't it? All them dirty nappies left about. in the bins don't they? Then the bin men But you can't burn anything these days can you? No. No. Nothing can be burnt. [speaker005:] I mean fire cleanses everything but, but you can't burn anything, you're not allowed to. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Mm, except on bonfire night. I don't know why they don't wash nappies, we used to do it, I can remember washing them [LAUGHTER] I mean I like to see the nappies flapping on the line. Yeah but you see lots of them haven't got lines you see. Some of them don't want them either thank you. [LAUGHTER] They'd rather sit there and... [chair:] I think Mary was going, we'll just have our... shall we say the Lord's Prayer before we [speaker005:] Yes. [chair:] say the...... [speaker001:] You hot? Yeah it's very warm Shall I turn it down? turn it down? Is everyone else hot? Yes I'm hot, I'm always hot. I sat in church this morning and fairly boiled. [praying] Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thine name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever and ever amen [].... [chair:] Well we'll have hymn number twenty two in the red book... [speaker001:] Are you alright Catherine? It isn't it's Now Thank We All Our God. You know that. Have you all got it? [chair:] Have you all got it? [speaker001:] Yes thank you. [piano music] [singing] Now thank we all our God with hearts and hands and voices who wondrous things have done rejoices. Who from the and bless us on our way and still is ours today. through all our life be near us. With ever joyful hearts and blessed peace to cheer us. And keep us in his grace and and free us from all ills in this world and the next. All praise supreme in highest heaven our eternal God who now and shall be ever more []. [chair:] Thank you Mary.... explain to us. [speaker001:] stop the tape... because it doesn't want me on it. [LAUGHTER]

[Charlie:] Good evening. Are we ready?... Can I say two minutes for what I think might happen and where we've derived some of the... authority from. Then maybe... we could introduce ourselves seeing as there's some folk here who haven't met everybody before.... And after that er we shall be taking the running order which is then a sketch next,... which is not cast yet [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] because we didn't know who was coming and who wasn't.... But I'm sure we'll man we'll manage that okay.... The there's five organizations... which... Justice and Peace comes across quite a lot.... These are CAFOD, Christian Aid, Oxfam, Traidcraft and World Development Movement. Comes a comes across some others as well, but it comes across these five... very frequently.... And at the moment, all five of them... have joined together on a single campaign, which is about trade.... This concerted action is pretty unusual.... So I was wanting to... to mention why it looks like it's happened just now. An erm I'm looking at a Christian Aid produced brochure... called Trade for Change, which is... the name of Christian Aid's campaign. E each of the organizations has got th s... slightly different... version o of the same campaign. The front cover says,... [reading] how would you feel if you were working just as hard today as ten years ago, but earning a third less []?... And it says that's what's happening to the poorest communities, the poorest countries in the Third World.... And wh why that's happening is really what we're going to be spending the evening on, and it's related to international trade.... Historically, poor countries were introduced to international trade by rich ones like ours,... because they were introduced as colonies. Their role was to pro to provide raw materials... to countries like Britain and France, classically. And they were also markets for manufactured goods.... Goods we cou which were manufactured in our countries.... Now the... colonial era has gone, at least in name,... but things haven't changed. The poorest countries still produce... the raw materials.... But the rich countries, ourselves, do the rest. They provide the shipping, the processing and the selling.... The processing is done over here by and large, which is where the profit is... and in the selling.... And sometimes it's all done by the same company. And when we get onto coffee, that's... will come alive.... Anyway, this is all heavy stuff. So we were going to have a sketch. [Moira:] What about then?... [Charlie:] Oh I'm sorry dear. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] Cos I've put it up. [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] Yes. I know. But we haven't introduced each other have we? [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] The pleasure's been [Charlie:] So I I'll move back a bit.... Having said we would introduce ourselves, perhaps we should.... If I start with me.... I'm called Charlie. I'm married to Moira over there.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] And we're two of the people in York erm who work for Traidcraft.... There are o others as well.... We're involved in some other organizations as well would you mind s going next? [speaker004:] Yes. Erm my name is Richard, Richard.... Margaret's husband.... [speaker005:] Margaret. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker006:] Are we really supposed to say something about ourselves as well is it? [Charlie:] If you wish. [speaker006:] Well, I'm Rachel..... [speaker007:] I'm Sheila, and I'm.... [speaker008:] I'm Theresa, but I'm not any relation to Sheila. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] I'm Aidan....... [speaker010:] And I'm Bernadette. missionary.... [speaker002:] and. [Charlie:] I'm Raymond, and I attend the Friends' Meeting here. Only just moved to York, so I... haven't erm kind of got affiliation... with anything.... [Moira:] I'm Denise, and I come here occasionally. [speaker004:] I'm Mary, and... I usually come to the meetings. [speaker005:] Erm my name's Derek, and I'm taping the meeting as most of you know so far. Erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] I'm Nancy, and this is the first time I've come to one of these meetings. I'm living and working in Derbyshire and just... back in York for the school holidays.... [speaker007:] Anne. Erm I'm part of the Justice and Peace group. [speaker008:] Margaret.... Sister. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] I'm David. David. I'm history. [Moira:] I'm Moira and I'm a friend of David's. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] I'm a friend of a friend.... Right we're going to have a sketch now. Which hopefully will work out okay.... There is a script, but erm we haven't cast the players... except Anne, who's going to play Doreen.... Anne said she worked in a factory at one time. [speaker007:] I was a student. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] Popcorn factory? [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] So the... it says... it's a short story. It's called, Just links in a Chain. It's produced by Christian Aid and it's part of its Christian Aid week's activity.... It's about the experiences of a, a cocoa worker in north east of Brazil,... and a chocolate factory worker in Birmingham.... These roles, two people, the cocoa worker's called Maria,... the... chocolate factory worker is Doreen. It says they're based on actual interviews with the women involved... and that some additional parts have been written... to show how they... are in fact involved in a global chain.... Producing chocolate.... Now some people have already been passed these... by me while they were still getting ourselves together.... If they had time to have had a look er, if someone could, could take the part of... Maria.... Would that be helpful?... And after that we have a man called Heg... who I presume is a man anyway, it looks like a man's name. Would that be okay for you David? [speaker009:] Yeah.... [Charlie:] Then there's a, a man called Joe.... Richard?... And probably a man... called Balakrishnan.... If that's a man's name.... And would anyone who's got a paper already, like to... take the part of Zoe?... Denise?... And Carol........ Yes,i if everyone has read the... the final paragraph... who's involved before we begin.... [speaker009:] The final paragraph on [Charlie:] Erm i erm on the first page, I'm sorry. [speaker002:] Thank you.... Is that yesterday's now? [speaker006:] [reading] Hello, I'm Maria. It's eleven A M here in the cocoa plantations of Bahia in north east Brazil, and it's already ninety degrees in the shade [].... Oh. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] What am I supposed to do? [Charlie:] Yeah. [speaker006:] I see right. [Charlie:] I'm sorry. [speaker009:] What are we supposed to do? [speaker002:] I should go back into the chair. [speaker007:] [reading] I'm Doreen. It's two P M here, and I'm in the Bourneville chocolate factory in Birmingham, concentrating on the next batch of Cadbury's Flake. It's freezing cold, about ninety degrees in the open, but I'm glad of the rain for the garden [].... [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [reading] My job is to slice open the tough cocoa pods with a sharp knife, and scoop out the beans. I need my four oldest children to help. We squat on the ground, eating our lunch as we go, and work as fast as we can for eleven hours every day. The beans are dried and exported all over the world... we don't know where.... We are just links in a chain []. [speaker007:] [reading] I've worked here in the factory for twenty three years. My father worked here, and my brothers work here now. As a result of my union work, I've come to understand... how I am linked to a chain too []. [speaker006:] [reading] Even when we all work, it is difficult to earn even the minimum wage for one, which is about nine pounds a month. It's not enough to feed the family. What's more, my husband is ill, and I can't afford to buy his medicine. I'm angry. I need a living wage []. [speaker007:] [reading] A few years ago, members of our union who were unloading cocoa beans... when they arrived in the U K, began getting sick.... We had no idea why, and took the matter up. We were angry as well.... Around that time, we heard about a network, which could link us up to other cocoa workers around the world. We became a link, and joined the chain [].... [speaker009:] [reading] I'm Heg, a member of the network. It's called the Transnational Information Exchange, or T I E for short. Our office is in Holland. We told Doreen about Maria and her friends in Brazil, because we were links and had joined the chocolate chain []. [speaker007:] [reading] When Heg told us about TIE's contacts in Brazil, we wrote to them []. [speaker006:] [reading] Doreen's letter told us about the mysterious sickness.... We discovered that it was because of the pills put between the cocoa bean sacs to kill insects. The pills were highly poisonous. We protested []. [speaker007:] [reading] We protested [].... [speaker004:] [reading] When we heard about the problem from Heg, we protested. I'm Joe, a member of the cocoa workers' union in Ghana.... We were worried about the poisonous pills too.... We became the... we became a link, and joined the chain [].... [Charlie:] [reading] I'm Balakrishnan, a cocoa worker in Malaysia. When we learned of the mysterious sickness, we protested, became a link, and joined the chain []. [speaker007:] [reading] As a result, the cocoa exporters cut down the use of the toxic pills []. [speaker006:] [reading] In nineteen eighty nine, two hundred cocoa workers in Bahia were threatened with the sack. Some said it was because we had harvested too many beans, but it was because our union was getting stronger. We protested []. [speaker009:] [reading] We protested []. [Charlie:] [reading] We protested []. [speaker004:] [reading] We protested []. [speaker007:] [reading] And we protested, writing letters to everyone we could think of. To the company, the union, even the president []. [speaker006:] [reading] Our employers took notice of the letters. They learnt of the links who had... But they learnt of the links who had joined the chain. They backed down. Our jobs were saved. Then the next year, we heard from England that one of our friends at the chocolate factory was facing dismissal. We protested []. [speaker009:] [reading] We protested []. [speaker004:] [reading] We protested []. [Charlie:] [reading] We protested []. [speaker007:] [reading] And we protested. When we heard about, when we heard about the faxes that had come in from all around the world. The company was inundated. They learned of the links that had joined the chain. I was reinstated []. [speaker002:] [reading] Now we are all links in a stronger chain. When we hear of problems facing chocolate workers anywhere, we take action, remembering how links in the chain have helped us [].... [Moira:] [reading] All this talk of chocolate is making me feel hungry, and chocolate is my special passion. I'll be a link and join the chain []. [speaker009:] [reading] This week is Christian Aid week, and we must ensure that people earn a fair return for their labour. I'll be a link and join the chain too []. [speaker002:] [reading] For us, life before death means [] [speaker004:] [reading] Sufficient food for my children []. [Charlie:] [reading] A living wage []. [speaker007:] [reading] Healthy working conditions []. [speaker006:] [reading] Medicine for my husband []. [speaker009:] [reading] The freedom to join a union []. [Moira:] [reading] Enjoying a bar of chocolate without expl exploiting others []. [speaker009:] [reading] Secure jobs for all []. [speaker002:] [reading] The chance to work together in search of a fair deal for all. Why not join us? Become a link and join the chain []. [clapping] [Charlie:] Thank you everyone.... This is from a Christian Aid... Week publication called God of the Fair Measure... which is obtainable from Christian Aid if people want. There's an order form on the back of this photocopy.... [Moira:] And that's free. [LAUGHTER]... Right. Next bit, information and figures wh erm... we erm it's a... bit of a background as to what world trade is... and how big it is.... Erm I'd like to start by saying we are all links in a chain, we are all consumers. We're all part of the world trade system.... We all eat and drink things every day that have come from... overseas, Third World countries. Unless we're extremely green, I suppose there's some people who don't. Er I think probably all of us here today have eaten something or drunk something that's... wasn't grown in this country.... Erm... I was looking through some of the books for... some of the... startling figures and... things that happen in world trade. One of the things that came across was that... the average sixteen year old leaving school this year in the U K will spend a million pounds in their lifetime.... They will all have enormous consumer power.... And how they choose to spend it... can affect... things that happen in the world.... There's... a couple of enlarged... pages from... Christian Aid book, Raw Deal, Trade and the World's Poor, which came out last year? I think as the first part of their trade campaign.... Erm... this one here... is about how very large companies control an enormous part of the world trade.... Cereals... which is wheat, rice... corn.... Five companies control seventy seven percent of the trade. Bananas, three companies control eighty percent of world trade. Cocoa... another three companies control eighty three percent of the world trade. Tea... is eighty five percent by three companies. And tobacco... is eighty seven percent by four companies. And some of these companies... are in... such as er Nestle... appear in cocoa, and they also appear as very big players in other commodities. Nestle are the biggest... commodity traders in the world trade for cocoa, milk and coffee.... And after oil, coffee is the biggest commodity... single product... in world trade. And Nestle control eleven percent of that... that world trade. They're the biggest single company.... And er... a couple of quotes from Nestle. They had a report in nineteen seventy six... called Nestle in developing countries... where they said, [reading] The volume of our purchases of cocoa and coffee... is so vast that it influences the market of those commodities []. They actually said then that they contr that they had an influence on how... on the cost and where they bought it from. But when... New Consumer was writing this book... Global Consumer, a couple of years ago,... they sent a questionnaire to Nestle.... And erm the reply was, [reading] is the New Consumer seriously suggesting that Nestle pay in excess of market prices []?... So they er... they agree that they have an influence on market prices, but they, they won't, are not prepared to pay any more than they have to. Allied Lyons who... is also a major part of the British coffee trade, replied to the Global Consumer, that the fairness of trading was the responsibility of governments and GATT, it'd got nothing to do with them. They only buy things, they're only part of the trading system, but how fair that is has nothing to do with them.... Can i do you want figures on commodities... I think quite a lot of us are aware that coffee prices have gone down in the last ten years. Certainly as far as we're concerned at Traidcraft, when we started eight years ago a packet of coffee was two pound twenty five. It's now one pound sixty.... And Traidcraft have tried to keep the price up to people. The world price has gone down below that.... In Brazil... there are all sorts of commodities whose price has gone down over the last ten years.... A kilo of in Brazil now brings in a fifth of what it did in eighty, nineteen eighty three.... And in Nicaragua, one pound of coffee beans is actually a quarter of what it was in nineteen seventy seven.... And g to go back to Brazil and the coffee workers there, the mo minimum statutory monthly wage for a cocoa plantation worker in Brazil is nine pounds for the month. Many people don't earn that anyway. And it cost sixty pence in this country to buy, buy a small bar of chocolate. But the workers have only been paid nine pounds for the month. United Kingdom confectionery trade is worth two point six billion pounds, billion,... and... two years ago... a figure that really astonished me when I saw it was that the total of all money that was given to development charities in the United Kingdom, including CAFOD, Christian Aid and Oxfam was equal to what Britain spent on one product made in York... and that's KitKat. Pound for pound it's the same. [speaker004:] Money given by who to? [Moira:] Everyone to Oxfam,Christ the total income of Oxfam, Christian Aid, Save the Children, CAFOD, was the same as what we spent on one product. [speaker002:] Do you know what the product was? KitKat.... [Moira:] Which really brought it home, that it was... you know.... Another thing I found out today was... do we know where our m main supplier of our coffee is? Any guesses? [speaker009:] Which country? [Moira:] Mm. Which country is er the biggest single supplier of coffee to this country.... [speaker008:] Kenya. [speaker002:] Yemen. Brazil. [Moira:] It's Uganda. [speaker008:] Uganda. [Moira:] It... relies on its coffee for ninety seven percent of its exports. Terribly dependent on coffee. Another thing that surprised me more than anything was, our main supplier of tea, which we get over half our tea from now, is Kenya.... And the amount of it we get from India and Sri Lanka ha has gone down quite a lot.... [speaker008:] Do they send to somebody else, or is their total production down? [Moira:] Part of it as far as I could see was in India... that i India India's actually got... it's quite a success story for development in a lot of ways. And as people in India have got wealthier, they're just drinking more tea. There's a huge domestic market for tea in India. Sri Lanka part of the trouble is the civil war. But also there's a... the Soviet Union used to grow a lot of its own tea, but it grew it round... Chernobyl... and it had to start importing a lot of tea. The Soviet Union's a big oh ex-Soviet Union now, was a big drinker of tea, so you. [Charlie:] I thought Georgia was their main tea area? [Moira:] There's a, apparently a lot of it has been affected by... Georgia's not that far away is it? [Charlie:] Well, it's a fair distance, yes. [Moira:] Th that's what th the books are saying, that it's that production of tea in... the Soviet Union has gone down. [speaker002:] Would it have been affected by fallout from Chernobyl? [Charlie:] I have no idea how i it went around a up in the northern hemisphere, over Scandinavia, and Georgia's in the south, so you'd have think it'd have been weak by the time it got down I'm not a scientist, I have no idea what [Moira:] Maybe they're more cauti cautious than we have been in this country about the effect of Chernobyl. [LAUGHTER] Erm... Of the total of goods that are sold in industrialized countries, such as, that have been manufactured, only three percent of them are made in developing countries.... Which comes on really to the second thing. We in the north, and in the E E C in particular, have a policy of encouraging, or discouraging, Third World countries from... from doing anything to the, the commodities at all, apart from exporting them raw... as far as possible. And we do that by tariffs. Into the E E C, raw coffee has an import tariff of nine percent. But if it's... an extract... or... instant coffee made into instant coffee, the tariff is double, it's eighteen percent on it. For cocoa beans, it's three per cent for... cocoa beans that we were talking about in the in the sketch. By the time it's become cocoa powder or chocolate, it's sixteen percent tariff on it. And dried fruit, tropical fruit, eight percent when it's fresh or dry, but if people, if Third World countries prepare it into fruit juices, then it's twenty three percent tariff that they put on it.... Ninety s percent of the coffee... that er is drunk in the U K is instant coffee.... Which is the most processed form of coffee you can get. And erm forty percent of that is one coffee.... Or Nescafe's blend. And another sixteen percent is the other Ne Nestle coffee... erm Blend Thirty Seven which I used to drink a long time ago and others [LAUGHTER] and twenty two percent is er... [speaker002:] Maxwell. [Moira:] Maxwell House, which has become the other local brand now seeing as how Maxwell House is owned by Kraft, and Kraft now own Terry's.... When you... start looking at fair trade,... we always say that Traidcraft is a fair trade company. When people ask us in the street what it is. And normally the short cut to tell people fair trade company and it tries to give, pay people a fair price for what they've made. But fair trade as we saw from that sketch, involves a lot more than just fair wages.... And... for the next part we're going to divide hopefully into groups [sniff]... [LAUGHTER] and what I'd like you to consider... is when you're... thinking about buying a product, what questions you ask.... That you know if it's been traded fairly. I think we've all got used to, with some products at least, asking questions about how green it is, whether it's recycled paper, whether it's going to destroy the ozone layer, as well as asking questions like what price is it, but... if we're going to decide whether... one jar of coffee is fair-traded as opposed to another one, what questions do we need to kn know the answers to, to decide that. So if we could get into groups of maybe about four. And perhaps come up with four or five answers four or five questions [LAUGHTER] not answers [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] that erm you think you might need to, to ask to find out.... [speaker002:] How long have we got to...? [Moira:] Erm about ten minutes?... Piece of paper.... [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] ... [speaker004:] Yes, but that wouldn't tell us, would it? Would it tell us? Would it. What questions do you think we need to know? And you want to know whether it would be more expensive. [Charlie:] Mhm. Yes... ah. [speaker004:] No, it's, the questions are, what questions do you need to know the answer to when finding if something was fairly traded? [Charlie:] not when you were buying it? [speaker004:] Well it might if it was more expensive... but I mean it might just be more expensive anyway. I say, has it got the fair-trade mark on it? The fair-trade mark like erm a kite mark. [Charlie:] I didn't even know there was one. [speaker004:] I think there's going to be, I don't know whether there is... so I sh I should ask fair-trade mark. [Moira:] where the money goes. I mean, don't know wh how to word that. I mean, I've always been. I never bought things from South Africa for many years, because of what was happening in South Africa. Er [Charlie:] There's so many people in between I.... [speaker004:] I'm putting your question down, is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the, in the producer country, which is what you said really, isn't it? If we know the answer to it. Er... [speaker006:] I'd want to know how much the people who are working on it at all stages are paid, if they're paid a living wage. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] And I would want to know what the health effects were on them of the conditions in which they had to work. [Moira:] There was something happened to Nestle with regarding erm the mothers and the milk in Africa... I'm not quite sure what it was. [Charlie:] I think Nestle have had to change their policy, because they were selling it and advertising it, and it was obviously doing harm to the children. I mean, Nestle had to abandon that. [Moira:] Mhm. Yes. [speaker004:] Yes, that's not quite the same thing as fairly traded though. [Moira:] Well, it is in a way because it affects, involves the person's health, so it's important. [speaker004:] But those, that was the consumer wasn't it?... It was I think because the powder was er pushed by the, the er company... in Third World hospitals, and when the mothers went out they hadn't got safe water to mix it with. It's not quite what Moira's asking. [Moira:] No so therefore I don't want to buy Nestle because of that. [speaker004:] Yeah, but I think that's something different isn't it to fair trading? Er I think, you know [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] What is, what concerns fair trade you know you've got to think [speaker004:] Denise said she wouldn't buy erm the Nescafe because of the baby milk you see, so I thought that was slightly a different... topic t er to the one we were asking about fair trade. [Moira:] Well, yes, I suppose one of the questions you could ask is, is there a boycott against the company? [speaker004:] Right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] But yeah, I think that'll do because... because the boycott is because of their unfair trading. I mean I would never buy it, but I would try not to buy anything. And they went and bought it in Brazil instead imported from Brazil where people are working for nothing. I mean, I am not that involved with this, but I've been following that. [Charlie:] It's difficult to know which country the... cocoa comes from because you don't know where they buy it. They buy it from one country one time another country another time. [Moira:] They used to buy from Ghana a lot and er at one time they stopped it and this very nearly brought down Ghana's economy right down.... That was about twenty years ago almost twenty years ago, so where they buy it now I don't know. [Charlie:] [LAUGHTER] One just doesn't know. [speaker004:] What was that last question? [Charlie:] Where, where do they buy their cocoa?... [speaker004:] So shall I put, where is the r where, where is the raw material from? Cos it's not just cocoa is it, all sorts of things erm... [Charlie:] They change from one country to another and that that lets some countries down on their economy. [Moira:] They've been doing that for a they take it from and they put it in cheap cheap labour. The whole thing is, is it's [Charlie:] They moved the Hoover factory from France to [Moira:] Yes. [Charlie:] Britain because they get cheaper labour. Britain's become a Third World country. [Moira:] Well it is almost a Third World country actually. [LAUGHTER] In some respects []. Only for some.... Are they still enough? [speaker004:] No, we've done very well. I know. We've done very well cos there's four we've got five questions and we were only asked for four. [Charlie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] So we've got a spare one.... So I'll just read them out. Has it got a fair-trade mark? Is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the producer country? I put in brackets middle men. [Moira:] And what do they do with the money as well I'd like to know. Do they buy arms and things like this er [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Erm what are the health risks to producers or processors? Is there a boycott against the product? Er where do the raw materials for the product come from. Ch cheap labour in certain countries. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] interesting to hear about India, about tea, because er my daughter is working in India quite a lot and it is very... high poverty for people.... So, you know some of the tea... some of the workers population is working in India. I mean the poverty is greater than in Africa or anywhere ah in the world. you know. [Charlie:] Well it's er the same idea as Thatcherism that some of the people are going to become very wealthy. And the others are going to be the same rather less. [speaker004:] Any more ideas? [speaker006:] Did you put down? [speaker005:] I'd go along with most of those. It's really a question of finding out where the material is coming from and knowing what the conditions are like there. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker005:] It's really a question of... knowing where the raw materials are coming from, where the product comes from and what the conditions are like there, but, of course it's all very well saying it's a question of what but... er how many people involved are going to know that? If you go into a shop, there aren't very many shops besides somewhere like Traidcraft who will know... so [speaker004:] O only for fruit really. Fruit's about the only thing you can ask which country. [speaker006:] Some things they're obliged to tell you where those come from aren't they? [Moira:] Yes. Yes at the moment another time I wasn't going to buy anything from Chile, and er I was asking the young man who was is this from Chile, oh I don't want them. He said I don't buy them either. tell management. But the Green Consumer Gui Guide, I have two daughters buying them for Christmas presents for friends, when they came out, so that people should be very aware of what. [speaker004:] I have thought of a question. [speaker002:] Good. [speaker004:] Erm because as Moira said that Kraft is erm... now what was she saying, what was she saying Kraft is the same as... [Moira:] Craft? Traidcraft? [speaker004:] No. [Charlie:] Maxwell. Maxwell House. [speaker004:] Maxwell House is Kraft [speaker006:] Oh yes, they're owned by Kraft yes, yes. [speaker004:] which is Terry's isn't it. So erm is the company erm part of er a bigger company? Part of a multinational. [Charlie:] Under these new European trade regulations, they seem not to tell where the things originate. now got to trying to decide is that made in England, or was it made in Germany or. [speaker004:] Put in brackets Terry's equals er... Maxwell House or Kraft.... Oh well, we've got six so that's quite... How have you come to join us tonight?... What how did you? [speaker006:] I saw Charlie at church on Good Friday. [speaker004:] Oh.... How did you come to know about the group? [speaker005:] It was er advertised in the er it's advertised in the paper, and when I saw it there well, I er recordings from as many places as possible and it's an ideal opportunity [Moira:] Could we come back into... the group now? [speaker005:] I'm an ex-student. [Moira:] Right, can we [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Moira:] We came upon the idea of asking this question... as the result of... going to a for Change conference. The reason I went last year it was Birmingham, May. And one of the workshops I went to was by someone called Richard. And he's involved in launching the fair-trade mark of which a little bit more later. He wrote this book, he started Traidcraft off, he was the person who was i his brainchild, he was the driving force behind it for a long time. Then he went on to the Global the New Consumer, looking at ways and how consumer power could be used for ethical purposes. Er and the Global Consumer was, was one of the fruits of that. His others are Shopping for a Better World and a few other books that were produced. [speaker002:] Is it Richard [Moira:] Not Richard who wrote Watership Down. [speaker002:] Watership Down no, no. altogether. [LAUGHTER] .... [Charlie:] That was his brother. [Moira:] He's probably coming up to about forty six now but he, he was quite young when he started off with Traidcraft and everything.... And he asked us... to er at that time in May they were looking at... what criteria they were going to judge... products to award a fair-trade mark to them.... And he asked us in a group to... to suggest some things that we might think of as being important.... And he had a list which I've, I've got there and er... I think he got two things suggested... that were on his list [LAUGHTER] from the group of people who were supposed to be aware... and er about twenty things which he thought maybe they should have [LAUGHTER] thought about, and hadn't []. [speaker004:] Our first question is has it got the fair-trade mark? [speaker002:] Mm. [Moira:] Right, I'll put that up.... And the answer'll be no, cos nothing has at the moment. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Now we know why we haven't seen it. [Charlie:] Mm yeah. [speaker002:] Yes. Could something be done about fair trade? What's the name of the company?... [Moira:] And with that goes, who, who owns the company as well I think. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm.... [Moira:] For instance, we buy Batchelors, and that's owned by Nestle. [speaker002:] Really?... who owns things. [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] Chambourcy as well. Nestle have actually started putting their labels on... the pro the company on quite a lot and the logo on. But not everything has it.... We discovered Perrier water last week. [LAUGHTER] We don't buy Nestle now at all. [speaker002:] Perrier? [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Erm... we'd want to know erm how... the crop was produced. Erm whether it was you know produced on a plantation? Or [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker004:] small farmers and, what producing it would represent? Er grown as a cash crop or er or erm [Charlie:] We were thinking about coffee at the time in particular, and quite a few of the people wanted to know that.... [Moira:] .... You want to write? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Eh? [Moira:] You want to write? [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] No. Er er oh erm oh right oh. Er well right back here again I think er [Moira:] Yeah. [speaker009:] erm... how many middle persons it might have passed through. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Moira:] Mary?... [speaker004:] Erm is there a boycott against the product in force? Such as the one against erm... erm... n now, now Nestle then... erm baby milk thing.... [speaker002:] Erm what is the price?... [Moira:] Is it being... charged enough for it, you mean? [speaker002:] the opposite. [Moira:] So it's fair trade [speaker002:] You wouldn't have got want it honest thing.... [speaker009:] If it is an important consideration of the price tells whether people buy it fairly or not, but you know if the price is very high then. Even though we know that comparatively we're all millionaires. [Moira:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker002:] .... [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Erm... we would like to know whether the food's been produced cleanly, say organically. Erm... or at least cleanly without noxious chemicals.... For example I can remember... erm hearing that erm Spanish some Spanish oran orange growers who grow their oranges under tunnels, er were getting very depressed because of the erm chemicals they were spraying on them had a harmful effect on their nervous systems.... Er... this is sort of thing we, you know, might want to know.... [speaker009:] Erm... the amount of packaging.... Very topical I would imagine with the. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. [speaker009:] The packaging they use is illegal.... [Moira:] You know, that could be linked to how clean it's been grown. Environmental. [speaker009:] Mm. [Moira:] .... [speaker004:] Why have there been. [speaker008:] We've er we've got two th... already put together. Erm what's the obvious appearance of the product? and i and what's the contents of the product, like additives and things.... We particularly mentioned monosodium glutamate. [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker004:] Do the workers have any erm powers of negotiation over the price paid and what they're going to be paid. Wages.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] ... [speaker004:] What were you saying about packaging,? [speaker009:] Well, yeah, well it's just very wasteful [speaker002:] It's just so wasteful, right, [speaker009:] whether it's unnecessary packaging.... [speaker002:] You would think it'd be more hygienic. [speaker004:] I could see that would be more green, but I just didn't know how it was more fair.... [speaker009:] Well, it just sort of [Moira:] It would indicate more middle people, for one thing. [speaker009:] Yeah there'd be. Yeah. [Moira:] Likely that. [speaker009:] More processed. [Moira:] You know. [speaker002:] Part of the price of the packaging would be taken off the wages.... [Moira:] Somebody might be paid then to do packaging. [LAUGHTER] One packaging, is important. Mm. [speaker002:] We were influenced by media coverage. Have there had been any stories in the media or... er television programmes. For example er,.... What were the sausages?... [Moira:] There was a lot of erm... protests after a World in Act was it a World in Action on tea estates in India and Sri Lanka? And er... that was quite a few years ago, about the conditions and on tea estates, and er... er... that was partly why we switched mostly to Kenyan tea I think after that. [speaker008:] There must have been something. I can't remember exactly what it was but there was I've got a very strong memory of [Moira:] There was a, there was a big campaign against Brooke Bond because of their conditions and. And they're supposed to have improved a lot... through pressure.... Someone? [speaker002:] Yeah. Jean? [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm well we'd, we'd got something on trying to ascertain if things had been produced by a multinational, which I suppose ties in with probably with, with three down. Yeah.... [Moira:] Why would you say something wouldn't be fairly traded? [speaker009:] Well, if I could see that [Moira:] .... The European Association of Fair Trade Companies... they're getting towards it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Mm. Well.... We also thought perhaps erm... looking at things like workers' cooperatives as well. [Moira:] Workers' right to negotiate in cooperatives, mm?... Any more? [speaker008:] I also think, on er sort of workers' rights, I mean if you know the person that's made it, like a local butcher, I would trust more to make... I would trust more than. [Moira:] Mhm. [Charlie:] You're in a better position to ask the questions if you know who's actually made the... aren't you? [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. Mm. [Charlie:] So there's no question [speaker002:] they can better. Ah. [Charlie:] That would identify the... producer or the manufacturer. [speaker002:] Right.... [Moira:] Erm... there's a couple of examples from two statements of fair trade. One is Traidcraft's purchasing policy, which is slightly different to... how it decides whether it's going to buy from a particular group, people who're producing something. This is some of the questions it asks them. When somebody... approaches Traidcraft to sell their products for them, they get a, a detailed, four-page I think, questionnaire to fill in about the company, and how they run and what they do.... And the five main points that are covered... is whether it's organized for the benefit of its members,... which... partly comes into that, but it goes a bit beyond that I think.... The workers' rights. Not just the right to negotiate, but to... but the organization should actually be organized to benefit the people who are part of it.... Are they concerned for the personal welfare of individual producers?... Which I suppose is... in.... Does it pay wages and provide working conditions which are... or above the average of its locality? I think [LAUGHTER] we haven't got here that, fair wages []. Whether people have actually been paid a fair wage for what they've made. [speaker004:] Mhm. Yeah. [speaker002:] Well, record of country of origin, I think that definitely Mhm. And workers' rights. [Charlie:] I mean, it's practically impossible to know that [speaker002:] Yes, but we definitely talked about that. [Charlie:] just by looking at the product. [Moira:] Yes. But that is part of the question that... they need to know the answers. I mean what is the wage policy for that country?... I know India has got a wage minimum for... the tea workers now.... And tea estates in India have now got to be owned by Indians or by the Indian government.... It's for making products which are now or are potentially viable commercially. That is something to do with Traidcraft that... they erm... they quite often work with groups who have been set up by carriages from Europe. So they've actually got to be making something that's... that can be sold or can be... sold in the near future if they.... And it must pay no more than a reasonable service fee to agents. Middle persons. [speaker002:] Oh yes. [Moira:] If they are involved at all.... And... sometimes it's quite difficult I think to get away from middle persons... because that is... it's part of the structure of the c the country you're dealing with... and so to cut down on exploitation from the mi but as to how far you can actually... impose your, your culture as well.... There's a fair-trade mark. This... was set up by the... Fair Trade Foundation which you were asking about,. [cough] And it was set up by CAFOD, Christian Aid, the New Consumer, Oxfam, Traidcraft Exchange, which is the charity side of Traidcraft... and the World Development Movement.... And it was to look at... basic supermarket products really... that are sourced from the Third World, and to try and... have a standard... that you could say, yes, that's been traded fairly. And the idea is that points will be awarded th for which they will pay a, a [LAUGHTER] licence fee []. And they will actually be looked at quite closely will individual products.... And it won't be for the whole... of a c of a company's range, it'll just be for one specific product at a time. So I know when, when the ne the negotiations were originally going on was with Lyons' coffee, for one of their coffees which came from a particular known estate... not for the whole range of Lyons' coffees.... And er... they set out this basic charter of the things that they thought erm were important to fair trade. And part of that is them buying from responsible producers or suppliers,... which is looking at the record of the company.... Whether there's a boycott against them? Have we had that? [speaker002:] Yes. [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] Oh []. [LAUGHTER]... Erm whether there's fair wages are paid as part of the and the conditions of employment, including the right to organize. That's something that erm a great many of the multinationals will er try to get round very er... and the other, other thing they'll have to pay fair price which reflects the cost of production and the quality of the product, plus a margin for investment and development.... Er this was partly because... some products... multi... er... go through from plant to supermarket shelf with one company... such as bananas, quite often, are produced on a company's plantation. And they grow the bananas, export them, and wholesale them in this country. Other products are bought on the commodity exchanges, like to a large extent tea... cocoa and a few other things like Rowntrees buying cocoa from Ghana but now they... seem to buy it anywhere that they can get it cheaply. And erm... so if they're buying it on the, on the market,th the company should pay a fair price... for, for what they've bought. There's also providing financial credit, where necessary, to protect the producer against production uncertainties, and financial exploitation. If you plant a crop, it's quite a long time before it [speaker002:] [cough] [Moira:] it comes to fruition. If you plant coffee... it's about five years before you can harvest any coffee. And erm... for a small coffee grower,i it's quite vital that they have some financial credit. And... to be a fair traded product, the charter says that erm... the company who are selling the products should have... an input at that level. There's another one that we haven't got as well.... Which equal rewards for men and women. [speaker002:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] Encouraging them.... One of the things we didn't... mention, deliberately, which I, I know Richard said they had a long debate about was child labour.... And they deliberately haven't said that it shouldn't be produced by child labour.... Which is recognizing that... children play a vital r role in a lot of coun... in a lot of families. And perhaps only at certain times of the year, especially in agricultural... communities. But erm they haven't put a prohibition on about them. The other one, identifying and encouraging environmentally sust sus sustainable production, which is... how it's being? How's it been grown? What were the farming methods?... And establishing stable trading relationships on the basis of quality, continuity, mutual support.... For what, for anyone who is a small producer or even a medium-sized basic produced commodity, having a stable market is extremely important. To know that there's someone going to buy your crop over a long period of time, or part of your crop, ideally, over a long period of time, does help people to plan ahead.... And that's everything really. [Charlie:] Just... there'll now be a short reflection. Is that... what time is it, please? [speaker002:] Quarter to nine.... [Charlie:] Expecting there would be lots of talk about economics, I was wanting to talk about morality,... which are nearer to the gospel. Traidcraft itself describes its activities... as bringing love and justice into international trade. I think that's the words Traidcraft uses. Which is recognizing that it's not there to start with.... Er the first letter of John, chapter four. [reading] My dear friends, let us love one another. All love comes from God []. If love is the character of God,... laid down through the gospel.... It's older translation, it's translated as charity, in the prayer book... which gives the idea of giving immediate assistance to me... not a theoretical future... when we're talking about trade, but an immediate. And charity does seem to be relevant, when we're hearing that people... now, in our own time... are really in a an awful state... in parts of the world.... But if the... the reason this has occurred... is because of a poverty amongst rich countries... rich people... which is causing poverty amongst poor people which is material.... Maybe this rich people's poverty is, is a moral poverty.... When we think of love, when we try to do something about it, the word that comes into mind then, is justice. That takes on from charity.... But it's not really us in Britain who are saying this,... people in Britain are saying this anyway.... in Brazil... the archbishop now... in his late eighties I should think... was renowned everywhere... said that there's a quote here from him on the Traidcraft leaflet. [reading] If the affluent countries, East and West, Europe and the U S... are willing to pay fair prices to the developing countries for their natural resources, they can keep their aid and relief plans [].... So whereas aid at present is vital, cos there's people starving... to actually put the situation right i it's not a question of aid at all, not a question of relief.... It's because the situation is.... A person called Jose, who was another man from another part of the world, a man from Brazil, along with and who are two sisters... two nuns I mean... have, have toured... the world promoting base Christian communities. When I heard him speak, he had a lot to say about this. A lot to say about idols. We don't talk about idolatry... very much in Britain.... He's saying that the material of the West is an idol.... And we cause the hunger and poverty, we, as the West, not necessarily as individuals... because we insist on a lifestyle that... acquires things... and in doing that, er we've subverted God.... There's another book here, which is... th the book we've had the... most difficulty in selling. I don't think we've ever sold a copy of this one. It's called The Road to Damascus, Chiros and Conversion... and it's a document signed by Christians from all sorts of countries, they all agree with the contents of this. Clause forty nine, Idolatry. [reading] Idolatry is a sin of worshipping, or being subservient to someone, or something, which is not God. Treating some created thing as if it were God [].... It seems people in other countries can see ourselves much better than we are.... And it's more than that, mainly because the people in Africa, and Asia and Latin America particularly,a are being sacrificed to the idol.... Generation after generation really, but the, the pace is quickening.... With the fall of... the world commodity prices really.... I've only wok woken up to this in the later part of my life, but even then, it's difficult to... to put it all together... but er these... three of them... had it more succinctly than I could. About a fortnight ago, the, the a Brazilian bishop, another person from Brazil, came to speak in York.... He was secretary of the Brazilian bishops' conference, so he... had clearly been in a position, like Jose, this bloke, to test the feeling of people in a wide area. himself travelled throughout his country.... I this was bishop 's, that was the man's name, second visit to Britain. In discussion, he said he'd been here once before, and he'd gone to visit the government.... And the minister asked him, what is the Church's attitude towards Third World debts? Bishop said, It's a moral, it's a moral problem, problem.... The minister said, no it isn't, it's an economic problem. He was very insistent about that... th there was no more to be said really.... As ou our Western societies... morality is an individual one. There's a Traidcraft leaflet here which is a bible study, and has some discussion mo morality. Our individual... morality is particularly a section on morality, and that's what concerns us. We don't think of the collective morality, the collective responsibility, in our society, for other people's distress.... And that's all the heavy stuff.... In the words of the Easter gospel... according to John,... [reading] when that other disci disciple went into the tomb, after Peter, he saw and believed []. And it's the same for us also. I think we can overcome it, in the immediate sense.... That fair trading will make an immediate impact in a small way because of the reasons we're discussing. And i its, its actual, direct consequence, it's not a theoretical thing.... That we're really talking about the re the reign of God, and how in fact God's plan is not in operation with people starving... and people having... not a future they c they can anticipate.... Th I think the... fair trading idea is, is in two ways. In the immediate, it's actually a sign of it, a symptom of the kingdom of God breaking out. And at the same time, it's the achievement of it, it's how i how it will come everywhere. Because it's an idea of solidarity. Lastly, I'd like to go back to Jose again.... The team, when I met... met them, had some banners made by base Christian communities in all parts of the world.... This is an appeal for solidarity. They had one from northern Bolivia. Bolivia's... probably the poorest country in Latin America. I it's not a... it's not something that anyone should look for, that sort of comparison. And on, on this banner... i it had what the country produced.... I'm afraid I forgot to write it down, except th there was minerals, that was part of its wealth, there's o obviously some other... parts of its wealth as well. But what the people who had made the banner were aware of, was that they were exploited, the wealth didn't go to them.... And also on the banner was w were some scissors. Jose explained that the scissors weren't for pruning the tree, cos that would just make it stronger. They were to cut at the roots.... And it was a belief... that to cut at the roots with small scissors would make a difference, because it would have a cumulative effect... and that's why I think we can do it in our own society. That er this group... wanted to work with other groups... which hadn't come to an understanding.... And Jose in fact talked er in terms of the poor evangelizing the rich. That was how he put it in his theological terms. And that was probably why I think he showed us that banner.... [Moira:] The next... stage of what we're doing is trying to take... things a stage further... on to what action can you take for fair trade?... [Charlie:] I in Britain we're saying. [Moira:] Yeah. [Charlie:] Wh What things could happen now in nineteen ninety three which would make fair trade... better. [Moira:] Yeah. [Charlie:] M More likely. [Moira:] Yeah. But at an individual le level as well if you want, but no not kind of just... it's not [LAUGHTER] a commitment to have to go away and do something next week []. [LAUGHTER] So if we go back, just for, for five minutes.... [speaker002:] which, which quite often it's what people want. Because that, that's going to give us something. But if they actually put that, the ca they do [Moira:] Indicative of things back in the eighteen. We seem to be gathering all sorts of things we don't need. [speaker002:] Mm. [Moira:] Microwaves [Charlie:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Try to buy more from Traidcraft. [Moira:] That's very important. [speaker006:] More regularly, not just... We need more Traidcraft outlets. Yes, we do yes.... If every supermarket had Traidcraft outlets, people wouldn't be forced to buy it, but at least it would be there. [Moira:] Yes, and I think... the prices should be in par. You know so that they don't make other produce cheaper... so that. [speaker006:] But the prices have got to be more haven't they, if our aim is [Moira:] Yes. [speaker006:] to give the money where it's [Moira:] Yes, but they don't put their price. If they have Traidcraft, they don't have something which is cheaper beside it. [speaker006:] No, it would have to be a se a separate Traidcraft stall, I think, not the Traidcraft coffee next to the Nestle coffee. Yes. [Moira:] And even so, I think it's a thing. [speaker004:] Actually, it probably would be erm... comparative. Moira said it'd dropped down, two twenty five to one sixty... a packet. So I think it is quite competitive now. [speaker002:] Mm. [Moira:] I it is competitive because people are not kind of getting the money... that we pay. They are getting less than we are paying. [speaker004:] No, I'm saying Traidcraft is more competitive now, [Moira:] Yes, but it is different don't you see, because we are not paying import. [speaker004:] Well, I would have thought Traidcraft would be paying people wouldn't you? [Moira:] Well, they are, but it's overall. Things overall in the world are cheaper. You can buy more for your money than ten years ago. [speaker006:] Ah, but is this only because people are suffering at the other end? [Moira:] Exactly. [speaker006:] If we could all be persuaded to have a little less tea, coffee, chocolate, and spend... and pay more for it. [Moira:] And it's the same with clothing erm [speaker006:] I don't think the problem is quite so great with clothing is it? Th it's been pinpointed for us that all these lovely tea, coffee, and chocolate which we all adore, is, is one of the things which is causing the greatest distress and unfairness in the world. [Moira:] I think it's also. I mean, cotton and things like this come from the Third World, doesn't it.... Some of the clothes, I mean, are definitely cheaper than they were fifteen years ago so I [Charlie:] Some of the things that come from China er [Moira:] And also Indian cotton. Which are in fact manufactured by Indians who sell them here very cheaply. I, I mean I used to go to London to buy things erm and you have oh they are even in England. Not to the extent they are in India, they are. [speaker004:] So, we've got one question so far. Ask supermarkets to stock fair-traded products. [Charlie:] Of course if there's some section on coffee, how are you going to get them to look at Traidcraft? [speaker004:] I think it has to be alongside the other. [Charlie:] In other words, you won't make a separate section. You'll mix it all up. [speaker004:] Mm. Mm. So any other actions suggested? [speaker005:] Make sure that you ask those questions before you buy any of the products. If you don't like the answers that you get, don't buy the products. [Moira:] in the market. You go to the market, and I've been to the market, and I've said, where do your grapes come from? And sometimes they said, I don't know. And, well you can keep them. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] In France they have to say [Moira:] They can't tell me where it comes, pardon? [speaker006:] in France they have to say where they've come from. [Moira:] Well, whether they have to in France or not, but I want to know, as a person, whether I am French, English or whatever, I want to know that kind of. As I said boycott.... [speaker004:] Right. We've got, ask supermarkets to stock the products, ask the questions before buying the products anywhere. [speaker006:] Lobby our MPs to get this fair-trade mark legislation through. [Moira:] Yes. That's very important.... Pressure on the on the MP is. Pressure on the MP to actually get the fair-trade mark [speaker004:] Well, I should think it's more perhaps the erm... civil servants than one's own individual M P. [Moira:] the government. [speaker004:] Moira was saying the minister was saying... oh the... it's an economic question, not a moral question. [speaker006:] How does one put pressure on civil servants? They're all so anonymous? [Moira:] I mean it's, it's, it's all a isn't it? [speaker004:] The government. Erm yes er Denise right. The government. Lobby the government yes. If it's the erm... it's the ministers isn't it, not the civil servants. [Charlie:] It's very difficult, sometimes I can get butter from Denmark, or Holland or Ireland, and I don't know which one to get, so I just don't know how to go about it.... I've no idea. I mean the conditions of labour, are they better in Denmark than in... Holland, or [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] it sounded very.... [Moira:] They want a few more minutes. [Charlie:] I just don't know. [Moira:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] At the end of the explanation, will we be getting coffee? [Moira:] Yes. Coffee and cocoa. [LAUGHTER]... [speaker002:] Where do you have to put the cocoa on, there isn't an oven down there? There's no cooker. [Moira:] The microwave. Don't do it in the microwave. [Charlie:] ... [Moira:] It's a fair trade. [speaker002:] ... [speaker004:] Don't you er know how to work them, Moira? [Moira:] No. [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] I don't. No, I, I I always thought there was, always thought of y you know, there was nothing that you couldn't work. [LAUGHTER]... [Moira:] I've only got a metal jug as well, and that's no use for a microwave.... [Charlie:] .... [talk in background] [Moira:] to talk about. Whether it's on the subject I don't know. [LAUGHTER]... Erm something they tell you throughout the, it takes quite a long time. But erm... if we could sort of shout out a few of the brilliant ideas. [LAUGHTER] Share them with people.... Would you like to start?... [speaker004:] Erm... well we decided that we would have to erm try and live more simply... erm that was the only way that er... erm this would work. I if the producing countries are going to get more for their products, we're going to have to take less. We're going to have to eat less.... Erm we'll have to consider our own lifestyles, and erm... try and set a good example. And er... be willing to share... what we feel about that with other people. Er....... [speaker002:] I'd like to erm agree with that but we. Er to ask more questions of people, and not. Erm and try and become better informed about what we are buying. And talk to our friends about our purchasing techniques... and explain to christian people about why we purchase certain things... or don't purchase certain things. [tape change] [Moira:] Well I think it's absolutely necessary to do this in supermarkets but erm you know that maybe fair trading in our country supermarkets erm... are not the only way to shop. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] And are not a desirable way to shop in the long run. [speaker002:] For anybody, I don't think. [Moira:] And erm... I've found out in, in our area in South Bank, the local hardware shop has just shut down. And the bloke told me that twenty five corner shops have closed down in South Bank, which is a tiny area, in ten years. [speaker002:] [gasp] [Moira:] And when we're all finally forced to go to you know Tescos for our shopping, I don't think us or Third World countries... are going to get much... benefit from it.... [speaker002:] Can I say so from a similar point of view, I knew somebody who used to be a butcher.... And erm there are now only twenty five percent of butchers that there were ten years ago as well. Mhm. And we and people don't go to butchers any more.... They buy things from... the packet prepackaged stuff. Mhm. I it really frightens [Charlie:] Th there are no fishmongers at all. I can't remember whose daughter reminded me, market used to be fishmongers all over the place. [Moira:] And we've seen, as well, detrimental impact on the community.... [speaker008:] Could I make, make a suggestion? Which is that if we take these cards, instead of dropping in one at... here there and everywhere... and I doubt if anyone will take much notice of one, maybe I'm a bit personally interested in, if I say could we all drop them in at Prestos in Rougier Street?... Well I don't mean all, but you know, those who w would do that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] I think it would have more impact, don't you? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] And, and it is th one of the few shops in town where you can buy food, where people who haven't got cars, don't go out to Clifton Moor or somewhere, and it, so just a suggestion please... that... [Charlie:] It strikes me if we were to use these cards... I forget what the wording is on Patterns, but er if we, dear supermarket manager, we would like you [Moira:] Dear store manager. [Charlie:] Sorry? [Moira:] Dear store manager. [Charlie:] Right. Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Moira:] Very good. [speaker002:] Yes. [Charlie:] Er please... consider stocking fair-traded products. If it says something like that. I mean it would be possible to specify. It seems far too vague to me does that [speaker002:] Yes. [Moira:] Yeah. [Charlie:] But like, by saying... fair-traded... products like... [speaker002:] Mhm. [Charlie:] Well, whatever we want to say. [speaker002:] Yeah.... [speaker004:] I, I think we'd have more effect if, if we'd erm... gave them in at the shop where we're known by sight. I mean, I think I'm kno known quite well at b by sight at Sainsburys. I mean I... I know various people by sight in the... you know who are always lurking around, when you go to sometimes for an exchange or a something, or say you've lost your glasses and haven't found them. [Moira:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] You know, I should think somewhere where you are [speaker009:] Yeah yeah, where you are story. [speaker004:] They say oh we've seen that woman before, you know, in the last five years. And I'm afraid I do shop at Sainsburys, I'm very fond of Sainsburys and I always find them very... good and very obliging and very fair and all the rest of that. [speaker002:] It's not like. [LAUGHTER] We're combining these two ideas in fact, this would make a very good campaign for a local church wouldn't it, where people would then be doing both all directing at one supermarket. Yeah. Mm.... [Moira:] You know, perhaps there's another way of... evangelizing it. Just er write an article for a local... newspaper. [speaker002:] On the back of a postcard it says, you know, write for further information from your, does it give any indication as to what fair trading means? I think it's a pity [Moira:] Erm [Charlie:] Mhm. [speaker002:] because there are going to be some people who won't take any further steps and erm [Moira:] Er it says, to the customer, if you support fair trading and would like to see Third World farmers having decent wages and working conditions, please sign this coupon.... Give it to the manager or assistant or the person on the checkout. [speaker002:] Mhm. Well, I think we should add a line, because otherwise we're going to be left with. [Moira:] I know quite a few people who would do that.... Just you know. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Moira:] ... There's something else that... [speaker004:] D did you ask a question? [Charlie:] I don't know, were you er motioning at me or Richard? [Moira:] You. There's something else... erm [speaker004:] Well, we w were just erm w wondering we were puzzling over was h how the poor in this country erm could help. Because it seems that erm it's a luxury for the middle class really to be able to afford Traidcraft erm prices. Erm the poor are only too glad to go to Sainsburys or Tescos where erm tea is half the price. And [speaker002:] No but the poor can't go to Tesco stores. Yes, exactly, Tescos is not cheap . You have to have cars. Also, it's not cheap. A few things are cheaper. They d it's They're not cheap, it's an illusion. Well er coffee is but nothing else is. [Charlie:] It makes me wonder if one of the things we're [speaker004:] Traidcraft is s is quite a lot more. [Charlie:] It is, yeah. [speaker002:] But you see, neither are corner shop, I mean, we've got a lovely corner shop at the roundabout... but the prices packing small cos they're for the elderly and single people and that, and the prices just rocket you know so high. I, I go because I, I feel I must support the shop, but I couldn't possibly do my family shopping there. sort of. You know, you only. [Moira:] In Kwik Save, Nescafe is dearer than Traidcraft coffee.... [speaker002:] Oh. Really? Well, Traidcraft coffee's very cheap at the moment. [Moira:] And I know that the Tetleys and P G Tips tea bags are dearer as well. [speaker002:] Yes, I don't think anything could be cheaper than Traidcraft coffee, no. [Charlie:] I it seems that somebody who's keen... maybe could do a bit of price comparison. M me and Moira n never have done. Kwik Save sort of dropped out of the sky. [Moira:] Cos it landed on our corner shop. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] Right.... [speaker007:] My impression is that the cocoa from Traidcraft is very much the same price, as... when I last bought it from the supermarket when you first started stocking [Charlie:] Mhm. [speaker007:] it up. Sorry, cocoa. Cocoa. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's good In the market [Moira:] So why are things so cheap in the supermarkets? [Charlie:] very reasonable as well. [LAUGHTER] [Moira:] Things, why are things cheaper in the supermarket, in comparison to Traidcraft? It's because the multinationals are buying... so much er quantity. And that is [speaker002:] Well there's quantity [Moira:] really what the crunch is, the price should be, they shouldn't be able to be cheaper. And that's really what is needed for the concept of size you know. They wouldn't be... able to, to buy things so cheaply.... [speaker002:] Yes. [Moira:] When they can't buy cheaply here, they [speaker002:] Yes. [Moira:] they go somewhere else where it is cheaper. [speaker002:] Yes. [Moira:] I mean they've been doing that for half a century or more, only now it's getting more and they can't. So even when we buy Traidcraft, unless it is cheaper than it was ten years ago, it shouldn't really be, should it? No, it shouldn't. It means that people are given less money than ever. [speaker002:] That's true. You said Traidcraft was trying to keep its prices up. Do you mean what it paid the coffee grower? [Moira:] Mm. Mhm. I mean [speaker002:] Because we're definitely paying less, I'm paying thirty five P less for a packet of instant than I was even eighteen months ago. [Moira:] Well, in theory up to an extent you are the answer which means that we have to buy less things, eat less, and, because we are you know that, I mean, I mean n I don't want to, I mean I'm not talking to anyone in particular, but we have a lot of very very big people and. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I was about to say seventy percent of women and forty six percent of men are overweight. [Moira:] Yes. Er we are eating much more than we need. I mean what about apparently we eat more chocolate than any other country. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Moira:] Do we need this chocolate? And if, if we are not spending that money on all this er... extra, we could buy the food at the price we should be buying it. [Charlie:] T to some extent I'm sure that's true. [Moira:] That is where the complicity erm it applies to clothes, it applies to all sorts. We are all so throwaway society you know.... [Charlie:] Mm. Yes that. [Moira:] So... you know, in time of crisis, I mean if it goes any cheaper, they'll get less and less money. Erm [Charlie:] D does... does this take us to Cafe Direct? [Moira:] Mhm. [Charlie:] You... were saying that the, the reason why the multinationals... sell coffee very cheaply is that they buy in bulk. And Cafe Direct, which is this one,... which is the great hope of lots of people [Moira:] It's a very nice coffee. [speaker002:] Very good coffee. Mhm. Very good. [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] er er is an attempt to... follow some of the same processes, bulk buying, and erm to reduce the costs,wh which are there no matter who gets paid for what,the there are some costs.... And it's considered th... that they would be able to... put in larger orders... by buying in bulk.... And the, the excess then wou would, would go to the producers... so's it wouldn't be a another multinational. [Moira:] So how do you deal with the middle people with fair trading, and with the Third World goods? Erm why I am saying this because I have erm... I know young people work with Guatemalans. And er so she goes to Guatemala, and she goes... for my er one of my daughters a wedding present, and she er a lovely dress, and she bought it in Guatemala for thirty pounds, she. Er if you go to Liberty's in London, the very same thing is ninety pounds ninety five. So who is getting all that extra money in between?... So what happens in, in the profit stage? [Charlie:] W with Cafe Direct,i it goes, the direct contact with the producers, which are in fact groups of cooperatives, erm I think that's right isn't it? [Moira:] Yes. [Charlie:] And, and that's part of the direct in the Cafe Direct.... Th the there are, there are of people. [speaker002:] Ah. So it's producer to Traidcraft? [Moira:] Mhm. [Charlie:] Well, it's not only Traidcraft. Cafe Direct is a consortium of four different organizations, one of which is Traidcraft, another is Oxfam, and th there're two other fair-trading organizations as well, called Equal Exchange and Twin Trading. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Charlie:] And so i i it's the four organizations together,a and they have in fact come together in order to, to be able to put larger orders, and to pay in advance, so that people are able to budget. Which is completely different to how the multinationals carry on. [speaker002:] Mm. [Charlie:] Er a at present, the, the coffee is all Latin American, or Central American... but i i it's intended and it's all ground coffee at present it's intended it will include African coffee as well. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Charlie:] And it's also intended it will become instant... maybe at the year end... and then be decaffeinated... but that that is more in the distance... because of the unit cost... in, in the process. Er it costs so much, nobody's got enough money to, to put the money up for it to erm be at a price which would be affordable, unfortunately. I think that's what it amounts to. But th there's a s a strong campaign to have Cafe Direct... taken by supermarkets... and there's a lot of people putting a lot of energy into this and, and at present it's, it's, it's showing those results. If you don't like supermarkets, maybe the results aren't so wealthy. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Charlie:] A a and I don't. But leaving that aside... i i it started off with the, the Co-op in Scotland, and also Safeways. Now it's been extended to Waitrose, which are a large chain in the south of England. Now Asda are taking it. Safeways, I think, are taking it in other parts of the country. I'm not sure it's got to the York area yet. [Moira:] They were making a decision at the end of March. But [Charlie:] And th there's a lot of, for Sainsburys... the, the feeling being that if Sainsburys also agreed to take it, that lots of other, if there are any others, would follow suit... cos everybody seems to look at Sainsburys and see what they're doing. As far as I know, Sainsburys haven't yet taken that decision they've they've hung on the brink for more than six months now. Nine months. [speaker004:] Oh well, all the more reason for the postcards. [Moira:] Mhm. [Charlie:] because they, they've shown they are susceptible to, to encouragement. [Moira:] With Waitrose down south and Sainsburys round the corner they have to. [Charlie:] Well,Wa Waitrose have taken it, like all the supermarkets, they've taken it on trial. And, and if they think they aren't going to get anything out of it,th this is their morality, it's the morality of economics [speaker002:] Absolutely. Absolutely. [Charlie:] and, and they'll ditch it. [speaker006:] Is there any point taking it to a local Sainsburys? Don't they all have to follow national policy? [Charlie:] I think so. [speaker006:] Then would it be better to send it to some central... [Charlie:] Well, I, I think the local manager would... would pass it on... if he or she got lots. [speaker002:] Well, they do sell, for instance they sell organic stuff, depending on the area... and they Mhm. get, they get it from er [speaker006:] Yes, that's true. Some things are sold... that aren't called.... Charlie, is it roasted and packed in... South America? [Charlie:] That's a bit of a hard question. Is it [Moira:] Roast?... No, but the, the instant coffee... will be. [speaker002:] [cough] [Moira:] They're looking to have freeze-dried from.... [Charlie:] Er Traidcraft's other coffee, which we haven't got any of here, it's ground coffee, is processed in Germany... wh which isn't anything to write home about. [Moira:] There's only about one percent of coffee i is roasted in its country of origin. [speaker006:] Mhm. But... I know you said there was a big... erm tariff against it, but on the other hand... they do get a lot of... more benefits from it, like... er well, the erm... the price that's paid for a lot more, and, and it gives a lot more employment. [Charlie:] Mhm.... I it's... part of the reason,i is that the processing just doesn't exist in, in countries. That i i it exists... in the western world. [speaker002:] Mm. [Charlie:] So the... instant coffee, the only two fair-traded instant coffees, I haven't put them out tonight, I say, here.... The these are the only two, I think, processing [Moira:] Nicaragua.... [Charlie:] companies,wh wh which are not of the western world, that we've ever come across. Th th this is [speaker002:] Tanzania. [Charlie:] Tanzania. T Tanika, which is a good cause,... and, and Encafe is, is produced in Nicaragua, although th er... whether th whether it's still being produced, I'm not absolutely certain [Moira:] Yes [Charlie:] because er some of this quite old. [Moira:] It is still. [Charlie:] It is? [Moira:] Nicaragua still produces its own coffee. [Charlie:] And the reason why there aren't any others... is because I don't think there's, there's any other processing equipment. I don't know what Oxfam does for Africa. [Moira:] The there. There is erm... so there is processing equipment.... It tends to be to be for local production rather than for export. [Charlie:] Mhm. [Moira:] Or it goes into the very cheap coffees here... and erm and no... er what do you call it, Kwik Save sell some coffee and chicory mixture, which is... forty four [LAUGHTER] pence for a jar []. [LAUGHTER] And that must have some extremely [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] dubious coffee in it []. [Charlie:] W we forgot the notices at the beginning. [speaker002:] H have we got a any other business then? [Moira:] Yes.... So if there's any other business then we could, it's going to have to be fairly quick. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Before that. Next er a fortnight from now, Dave and talking about Ah. Yes. Erm they are two Americans who've, who are involved with working in, in urban er aging and provision for aging, geriatricians. And they both work, in their own part of the world, I've forgotten exactly where in the United States they, they work, erm a fair bit with support groups within America... and they, they're coming to talk. Er two weeks tonight. Peter and Gayle. . Right okay, so th that's a fortnight. I do we haven't got a programme out, because I haven't yet. Erm, I tried to ring this lady. Were you going to contact? Er y no, I'm not saying you did [speaker006:] Erm erm [speaker002:] But did you say you would? [speaker006:] I don't remember saying I would, but I will do if you like. Erm... yeah. [speaker002:] Erm [speaker006:] She wouldn't be there next... no, not next week. It's the week after. [speaker002:] . And you said that on twenty first of June, Stanley, was [speaker006:] Yeah, erm... I haven't had a reply from Stan yet, he's probably been away over... Easter. [speaker002:] Oh, I see. I, I thought we'd, you know [speaker006:] And his particular thing would be erm things especially like bananas and the erm... barriers to trade when the E C becomes united. You know Single European Act or whatever. [speaker002:] He, he he's going to talk about Jamaica you say? [speaker006:] Well, about the Caribbean, er... but with particular reference to what the new European... unity law will, what effect it'll have on trade in that part of the world.... [speaker002:] So that means until we've heard from, one of them, we can't sort of ascertain finally the, the, the programme for the next few weeks. But best to remind you that on the tenth of May, we've got Jerry coming. I've written to him, I've not heard from him yet... suggesting you know... er say that we'd like to have a seminar afternoon. But what I would like to know is, any of you know for certain that you want to come to either of the parts of those that day, in the evening or the afternoon? I'd be glad if you'd let me know, because... we, we want to know yet the numbers, and how many we're going to get.

[Gill:] Just thinking what we'll start off with. I think I'll give you some homework that you could do for the week. So it'll be [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] based on, what we do today will be based on [Tom:] Okay. [Gill:] technical names of notes and intervals. Things like that.... Don't, can't remember whether we actually any of the... technical names of the... of the scale before? No. How many notes are there in a scale? [Tom:] Eight. [Gill:] Right. So each one of those is going to have a... a name of its own [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] with the first and last of course are gonna be called the same thing. And it's the tonic. You, you've probably heard that name before. Tonic. Because I think we've probably [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] talked about tonic chords and... things like that. Tonic is the first degree of the scale. So in the key of C major... C will be the tonic. [cough]... Er now the next note second is called the supertonic.... It's immediately above the tonic. [Tom:] And so would that be like D? [Gill:] That, that would be D. Or in the key of G it would be A. [Tom:] A. [Gill:] And so on.... The mediant is the third degree of the scale [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] and it's called mediant because it lies exactly half way between the first note and the fifth note which is also a very important note in the scale, which we'll come to in a minute. So mediant is the third and it lies between, it's in the middle in other words. Subdominant... again is the fourth. And I'll explain why in a moment. Fifth is the dominant.... It's, it's a very important note. Dominant means that it's important doesn't it? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Er and then the submediant, because it lies halfway between the upper tonic the eighth note of the scale and the subdominant. So that, that's called the submediant. And then the mediant is called the mediant, the mediant because it lies halfway between the tonic and the dominant. So you've got the mediant between one and five. Submediant between [Tom:] Between [Gill:] eight and four.... And that actually... shows you slightly better. That little diagram. If C is the tonic, G is the dominant, so in the middle comes the mediant.... And think of that as the upper tonic.... And that would be F would be the fourth degree. So that becomes submediant. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] And seventh note is the leading note because it's leading you up to the tonic again.... Tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant. The lower dominant in other words and it's [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] called subdominant because it's, it's five notes below the upper tonic. So the dominant is five notes above the tonic and the subdominant is five notes below the tonic. [Tom:] Right. Yeah. [Gill:] If you like underneath the lower one. [Tom:] Mhm. [Gill:] That jus if, if you can keep the... th the descriptions in your mind as well it just helps you to, to remember why each one is called that. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Okay and in fact I've given you... part of your homework is to write out the technical names. With a very brief explanation of, of why. And you can use this little book for now. [Tom:] I think, I think we've got one of those [Gill:] You may have one of these. [Tom:] at home certainly. [Gill:] So you can use use that can't you? I'll put the page numbers so you'll be okay there. The other thing... I'm going to talk about are intervals.... I can't remember whether in grade... it was three you did wasn't it? Yes you've had to do intervals in oral tests haven't you? So you know things like major second, major thirds. Erm perfect fourths and perfect fifths? Did you have to go as far as that? [Tom:] No. No. [Gill:] No we didn't. Right. Okay. Let's refer back to C major scale because it's the nice easy one. It's all white notes. So there's nothing to worry about as far as sharps or flats go.... There's ei the, the eight notes of the C major scale. [cough] C to D is a second. There are two notes involved so we call it a second. And that's a major second because it comes in a major scale. So it's C to D, A major second. C to E [Tom:] C to E major third. [Gill:] Major third. Miss out fourth and fifth for a moment. Go t to A. C to A? [Tom:] Major... sixth. [Gill:] And C to... B? [Tom:] B major seventh. [Gill:] Is a seventh. And then we've got an octave. Right. The fourths and fifths aren't called major. They're called per perfect fourth, perfect fifth.... Right? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] The reason for that is because those two notes also come in the minor scale.... Alright?... I know the D does as well but the fourths and the fifths always remain perfect.... Okay? So you say major second, major third, perfect fourth and fifth, major sixth, major seventh, and octave. It's actually called a perfect octave but they never worry about the perfect when you're talking about an octave. But it is actually called a perfect octave as well. [Tom:] Okay. [Gill:] Besides the major intervals you've got minor intervals. If you think about C minor scale. You'd have C D E flat F G [Tom:] F G A flat. [Gill:] A flat. The key signature actually has a B flat in it but because in a harmonic minor if you remember you raise that a semitone that's a B natural going to C.... Now you still have a major second but you have a minor third which makes it minor scale doesn't it? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] And a minor sixth. [Tom:] But you've still got the perfect fourth and fifth. [Gill:] You've still got the perfect fourth and the perfect fifth.... Right. Now with all the oth other intervals you can also have minor seconds, minor sixths and minor sevenths. Which is why they're not called perfects. You can't have minor fourths and fifths. So fourths and fifths just remain perfects. Any idea what you do to make all of these other intervals in to a minor interval apart from those two? What happened to the third to make it a minor? [Tom:] Lowered a semitone. [Gill:] Right. So if you do the same thing with a D. [Tom:] Erm. [Gill:] You have C to [Tom:] D flat. [Gill:] D flat. That becomes a minor second. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] There's the minor third with E flat. Fourths and fifths you don't have minors. [Tom:] You don't have. Right [Gill:] Now. That's the sixth. [Tom:] Minor sixth. [Gill:] The seventh to make it minor you would [Tom:] B flat. [Gill:] put a B flat in. And that gives you the other minor interval. So you've then got a minor second, a third, a sixth and a seventh. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] Now all of the intervals also have what is called an augmented interval and a diminished interval. What do you think a diminished interval will do?... To a minor interval. [Tom:] Erm [Gill:] What, what happens if you diminish something? [Tom:] You put it down. [Gill:] Right so it gets smaller. [Tom:] Yes. [Gill:] And if you augment something? [Tom:] It gets bigger. [Gill:] It gets bigger. Right. So. You've taken that down a semitone to to make it minor. To make it diminished you just take it down another semitone. [Tom:] Take it down another semitone. [Gill:] In fact you [Tom:] So [Gill:] wouldn't hear any difference between that [Tom:] So. Yes it's C C. [Gill:] and, but you must call it D double flat. Because it [Tom:] Oh right. [Gill:] must have, if it hasn't got another letter name then it's not a second is it? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] So C to D double flat. It'll sound the same note.... So you can only see it on paper. You can only, you, you wouldn't know that it you were hearing... a C to a C, you wouldn't know you were actually hearing a diminished second would you? [whispering] Because it's the same note []. Right. What about... [Tom:] Would they would they write it like that in the music? [Gill:] It would be written like that sometimes if [Tom:] It would. [Gill:] yo if they're changing key [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] they might put a double sharp or a double flat that... but would be the same note. But that's just a way of changing key. It will actually show up though once you've [Tom:] [cough] [Gill:] What about the, what do you think a diminished third is going be? [Tom:] A diminished third will be a D. [Gill:] But you've gotta call it E something otherwise it's a second [Tom:] E double flat. [Gill:] isn't it? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Okay. So if you want it to beco to be a third you've still got to make it an E and call it a double flat. Now you can also have diminished intervals for the fifths and fourths. Fourths and fifths. [Tom:] Alright. [Gill:] So what do you think a diminished fourth will be from C? [Tom:] A diminished fourth... would be... diminished F double flat which would be played as an E flat. [Gill:] Now will it?... Remember there's no minor interval so you can just go [Tom:] Oh yes. [Gill:] straight to an F flat. [Tom:] F flat. Yeah. [Gill:] It'll be, it'll be played as an E but of course it's actually actually an F flat.... Okay? As you don't have to go through a minor interval just go one semitone lower and [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] it becomes diminished for the fourths. [cough] Same thing for a fifth. [Tom:] Yeah. It'd be a G flat. [Gill:] Just an ordinary G flat and that becomes a diminished fifth. Erm and A... C to, to A. [Tom:] C to A would be... A double flat which would on a keyboard be a G. [Gill:] G. Right. And what about a diminished seventh? [Tom:] Diminished seventh would be played as an A. [Gill:] And it would be called [Tom:] Be B double flat. [Gill:] a B double flat. That's it. Fine. That's, those are the diminished intervals. What about the augmented intervals? [Tom:] Go up a semitone. [Gill:] Right. so an augmented second [Tom:] Second [Gill:] will be? [Tom:] Do you have to go through the minor? [Gill:] No. Because you're getting [Tom:] No. [Gill:] bigger. [Tom:] Oh yeah. [Gill:] So it's going the other way. [Tom:] Right. So that would be a D sharp. [Gill:] A D sharp. a second. And a third will be? [Tom:] It'll be an E sharp. [Gill:] Which will of course just be played as an F. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Must be called an E sharp. Then we come to the fourth. [Tom:] That's the F sharp. [Gill:] And fifth? [Tom:] G sharp. [Gill:] And the sixth? [Tom:] A sharp. [Gill:] They're much easier this way round because you haven't got to go through the minor at all to reach them. What about a B? [Tom:] That'd be a B sharp. [Gill:] Which of course is played as C. [Tom:] Played as C. [Gill:] So again you wouldn't know you weren't playing an octave. But on paper you can see that you're intending it as a... an augmented interval. Then of course you don't have to worry about the octave. You could actually have... an augmented first. [Tom:] Which would be the... C sharp. [Gill:] Mm. That's a bit silly. It's an interval you'd never see but I mean theoretically you could have that.... The augmented intervals are quite easy because you're only going one semitone greater than what, than the note that appears in the major scale aren't you. But to get a diminished interval you've got to remember that if you can have a minor interval, you've got to go one semitone less than that minor interval. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] Which is two whole semitones less than the major interval [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] isn't it? [Tom:] Aha. [Gill:] Except for the fourth and fifth which is easy cos that's just one semitone less. [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] They're not really so complicated as perhaps they might look in the first place. If you just keep it clearly in your mind that you can have erm major intervals. Anything that appears in the major scale is a major interval or a perfect fourth and fifth. [Tom:] Okay. [Gill:] And then you're gonna have a minor interval from each of the major intervals. A diminished interval from any of the intervals. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] And an augmented from any of the intervals as well. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] So if you're in the key of... F major. What's the key signature of F major? [Tom:] F major, it's a B flat. [Gill:] Nice easy one to start with. So there is the tonic. Let's call it by its proper name, tonic. [Tom:] Tonic. [Gill:] What would a perfect fourth be? [Tom:] Perfect fourth... it's erm [Gill:] First of all letter names. [Tom:] It's, it's a C. [Gill:] That's a fifth. Remember you have [Tom:] Oh is it? Yeah. [Gill:] to include the first note. [Tom:] It's er it's er a B flat. [Gill:] So it's B flat. So a perfect fourth is that. Right. I'll... I'll put the flat in front of the note so that you can see it. What about an augmented fifth? [Tom:] Augmented fifth would be a C sharp. [Gill:] Right.... What about a diminished fifth? [Tom:] Diminished fifth... would be a C flat, a B. [Gill:] That's right but don't forget it must be [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] called [Tom:] C flat. [Gill:] C flat. So that's a diminished one. Minor seventh? [Tom:] Minor seventh is a... B flat. No a erm A. [Gill:] That's a fourth. [Tom:] Oh yeah. [Gill:] Well an A would be a third but B flat would be a fourth. [Tom:] B flat. [Gill:] Now you want a seventh remember. Oh you're going from the other [Tom:] ... It's erm... E flat. [Gill:] E flat that's right. What about an augmented seventh? [Tom:] Augmented... is erm E sharp. Which would be played as an F. [Gill:] E sharp.... What about a... let's have one more, A minor sixth? [Tom:] A minor sixth. That's... erm D flat. [Gill:] A D flat. Right... you just have to remember that whatever key you're in, you've got to remember the sharps or flats from that key. Cos those will be the major or perfect [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] intervals won't they? And then you've got to add or take away. Er if you er if you had to have an augmented fourth... what would you do? [Tom:] Augmented fourth. It would put it up a semitone, so it would be a normal B. [Gill:] A normal B. If you had a key signature you would have to remember to make that a natural wouldn't you? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] But if it's got no key signature you wouldn't need to bother to put anything in at all. Cos inevitably it would just be a... a diminished... fourth. Right. The other part of your homework I've given you to do, is to write down all of the intervals that you can possibly have. But based on the key of G. I gave them all to you based on the key of, of C Now. [Tom:] C. [Gill:] But if you write them all... down first of all starting with C. And then going to D which would be the major second. And so on. I've put major second, minor second, diminished second, augmented second. And so on. And then the third and then the third and a fourth and a fifth and so on all the way through.... Erm. If you get used to writing those out. And then the next time I'll probably give you some intervals and ask you what they are. I'll actually start writing out... things for you to do as homework. And I've also got a book that we can use. I've got grade four and grade five which are quite useful. But I find it more useful actually to write out... the things I want you to actually do. Er. And then I shall find out quite quickly what you don't understand. So what we've got to spend more time on. What you do understand so we won't bother to spend as much time on. Cos there are quite a lot of other things as well that we've gotta deal with. In fact we've got to deal with everything that comes in this particular book. And there's quite a lot of it. The other one of the, one of the things that people find very difficult, the learning all the words they expect you to know. The Italian terms. And the French terms now they've added. And some German ones. And there are pages of them. Quite a number of pages. [Tom:] What sort of things? Like erm poco a poco all, all those different speeds. [Gill:] Yes. Erm. Allegro, andante, everything. And... they do actually now add, they only used to give you Italian terms, they've now add added quite a lot of the French ones and the German ones.... I can never remember the German ones. French ones I don't have any trouble with.... Most of the Italian ones I don't have any trouble with. But I can not remember the German ones. But I've never had to use them.... You might find those easier. Do you do German at school? [Tom:] Yeah I do. I do French and German. [Gill:] You'll probably find you won't have quite as much trouble as I do with them. But I've never had to worry about them so I, I've never really got on and learnt them. That's, that's what it boils down to. And there are a lot of them.... You know they're all things that you, they d expect you to know. And they do ask you questions on... quite a lot of them.... And there are pages of them to learn.... Er. You've got to know quite a lot about rhythm. All the different time signatures that there are, which will include everything [Tom:] Two four three four [Gill:] Two four three four [Tom:] four four [Gill:] Yes. [Tom:] which is the... crotchets. Then you've got... erm six eight things like that, where it's quavers. [Gill:] Six eight you've got to be careful with because you're in to a different type of time. Erm [Tom:] And you go one one two three four five six. [Gill:] And those are comp what we call compound time. Yes. [Tom:] Erm. It's, it's the same time as three four [Gill:] You have t you have two types of time [Tom:] but you count the quavers rather than the crotchets. [Gill:] It's not quite like that actually. Six eight time is actually two time. But the beats are divided... or shared out into three. [Tom:] Oh it's in triplets. [Gill:] Er they're not actually triplets no. [Tom:] Oh. [Gill:] They're, they're, they're six to tell you you have six quavers in a bar. It's true. But they're in two groups of three.... Like that. And what it actually means if you see them like that it actually means that there are two... beats in a bar and they're dotted beats [Tom:] Oh right. [Gill:] er as opposed to two beats in a bar that are not dotted. [Tom:] Just writ [Gill:] And that's just called two four. That's two time, two dotted beats in a bar. It's called compound time because they're not beats that can be divided into two. They go into three you see. If you have nine eight it's the same thing as saying three beats in a bar. [Tom:] Three beats in a bar. [Gill:] But they're three dotted crotchet beats, or nine quavers in a bar. And they're grouped in threes. The compound time is grouped in threes. The ordinary simple time grouped in twos or the beats can be divided into twos.... What's divide actually means in twos is that you share it [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] equally if you divide something.... Erm you can also have six four time. What do you think six four time might mean? [Tom:] Six four. Erm... it's [Gill:] Well there are gonna be six somethings [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] in the bar. [Tom:] It's [Gill:] Six what? What does the four stand for? [Tom:] It's crotchets. Six crotchets. [Gill:] Right. So. Let's write it down and you can see, six, there are six crotchets in a bar. Now remember if it's got six at the top it means it's in two time. So divide that bar into two and then make each one of those into a dotted beat. And what do you get? [Tom:] Erm [Gill:] You could make a dotted something out of that group of three notes. [Tom:] Mm. Yeah. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] [Tom:] Erm you have... what is it? [Gill:] A dotted... now that was a dotted... those three notes were a dotted crotchet. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] So three do so three crotchets will become one dotted? [Tom:] Minim. [Gill:] Minim. So six four time means two dotted minim beats in every bar. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] So it's two time.... What about nine eight or nine four? Nine four we'd better do hadn't we? [Tom:] Nine four. It's erm... nine, it's nine [Gill:] for crotchets. [Tom:] nine crotchets [Gill:] Or three? [Tom:] Or three... dotted minims. [Gill:] Dotted minims in a bar. These are the things people get very confused about. That there are two basic different types of time. Compound time. Simple time. These are the compound ones the six eights, nine eights, six fours, nine fours, twelve. You can have twelve as well. Twelve is four beats in a bar. [Tom:] You can also get it with twos can't you? So you'd have like four two which would be [Gill:] You could, yes you could do. [Tom:] minims. Do you get it with semibreves? [Gill:] No. It's unlikely. [Tom:] No. [Gill:] I suppose theoretically again you could have but it's, it's not a [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] not a usual one cos that would make a very [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] very long bar and [Tom:] Eight. [Gill:] er but you can definitely have... you can have six sixteen if you wanted. Nine sixteen. Six sixteen would be what? [Tom:] Erm it would be [Gill:] Six what... [Tom:] Semiquavers. [Gill:] Six semiquavers. In other words two dotted quavers [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] in a bar.... What would be the equivalent simple time signature to that? [Tom:] The equivalent simple... erm [Gill:] Remember six means [Tom:] Yeah. It's two [Gill:] two beats in a bar. So we know the top number's gotta be two. [Tom:] Two. It's two four. [Gill:] Erm [Tom:] Erm no.... oh [Gill:] just two quavers in a bar. [Tom:] Two quavers. [Gill:] Which is two? [Tom:] Two eight. [Gill:] Eight. Instead of having two dotted quavers, two ordinary quavers would be eight. It's not a time signature you see very often but again you can, you could have it. [Tom:] Right. [Gill:] Or that one would be three four wouldn't it? And that one would be three two.... Three minims in a bar. Three over two.... We'll go into those in a lot more detail when, when the time comes. But... if you can, if you can understand the difference between simple time and the compound time and er try not to muddle the fact that six eight does not mean that there are six quaver beats in a bar, but it means that there are two dotted beats, and two dotted crotchet beats in a bar... and try and get that into your head as soon as you can you're gonna find it a lot easier.... So many people find it very very difficult, to sort out the difference between simple times and compound times.... If you could basically thr remember to that there are two beats, three beats in a bar, four beats in a bar, five beats in a bar, whatever. But even in compound time you still have two beats in a bar, three beats in a bar, four beats in a bar. But they're dotted beats. As opposed to simple time which is ordinary single beats.... Erm... you'll hav have plenty of opportunity of writing them down and erm you'll be given a lot of extracts of music like you probably were in that book [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] and asked to put the time signature in. Of course they get more complicated [dog barking] don't they once you've got compound times, and, as well as simple times. And that one had bar lines, which is the same sort of thing. You've got to know what the time [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] signature means haven't you? [door knock]

[Gill:] cos it makes a fun funny humming... or buzzing noise because it picks up the vibrations through the table otherwise. Now then... Pen and pencil would... would be a useful idea. Now what did we do before? [Tom:] Erm we've done... time signatures, compound time signatures. Erm [Gill:] Yeah didn't we? [Tom:] tonics all that sort of stuff, diminished, augmented [Gill:] We did some intervals [Tom:] intervals. [Gill:] Yes. Right.... Now... can you tell me about time signatures? What, what are the two types of time signatures? [Tom:] Compound [Gill:] Mhm. [Tom:] and erm what's the other one? [Gill:] Simple. [Tom:] Simple. [dog barks] [Gill:] Yeah. Just ordinary simple and compound. And there's [Tom:] Simple and compound. Yeah. Compound's things like six nine, six nine erm [Gill:] Nine twelve [Tom:] Yeah. That sort of stuff. [dog barks] [Gill:] At the top. That's the top number. [Tom:] Erm. And compound is three four. [Gill:] Tha that's comp that's compound. Now compound is always six. [Tom:] Oh. [Gill:] Simple is just ordinary three beats a bar, [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] four beats in a bar, two beats in a bar. It's the compou think of compound as being the one that's more difficult to think about. Six eight times, nine eight times. [Tom:] Yeah. Right. [Gill:] Still leaves three two three or four beats in a bar, but they're compound times. They're dotted beats.... That's really all that compound means. It means dotted beats. Erm... what would twelve... twelve four? Think about twelve four cos that's a compound time. It's got twelve at the top. Erm it may help to look at it. Cos you can't think about it straight away. Think... twelve, and it'll be twelve what? [Tom:] Dotted semi-quavers. [Gill:] No. What does four stand for in an ordinary time signature? [Tom:] Oh crotchets. [Gill:] Right so [Tom:] So. [Gill:] if there are twelve of those. Twelve crotchets. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve. Think of them in groups of threes... and that gives you four... dotted? [Tom:] Quavers. No. Semi-quavers. [Gill:] You're, you're going small [Tom:] Yes. [Gill:] and you've got to go the other way. [Tom:] Oh yeah. It's erm [Gill:] If there are tw if there are twelve crotchets and each of those are in groups of three. [Tom:] Dotted minims. [Gill:] So you've got four dotted minims. So twelve, I mean if you can remember them twelve stands for four beats in a bar anyway [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] and... if you just think what twelve crotchets are going to be divided up into [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] it's going to dotted minims. Cos you know it's going to be dotted something or other.... And if you were to see... er an extract of music... for example here's a twelve eight one. This one actually tells you it's in twelve eight time. And it's asking you to put in the bar lines.... Where would you... put those bar lines do you think? It would al I think it probably also asks you to... to group them properly. But just for the moment we won't worry about the grouping aspect.... I think, assume everything starts on the first beat of the bar as well. [Tom:] Okay. [Gill:] It'll tell you if it doesn't. [Tom:] Erm [Gill:] [whispering] Eight stands for []? [Tom:] Quavers. [Gill:] [whispering] Right [] [Tom:] [whispering] One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve []. [Gill:] So obviously the first one would be there. And probably if it's going to be a whole one [Tom:] One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve. [Gill:] So in fact there are just two bars. Now how would you actually group... those notes? [Tom:] Erm... it'd be groups of three again wouldn't it? [Gill:] In groups of three. Those two've got to be grouped together. [whispering] One two three four [] [Tom:] Er... it'd be sort of half of that. Half of the erm crotchet. I don't know how you do that. [Gill:] [whispering] Can we go backwards. One two three four five [] [Tom:] You can only do it if you miss out that. One two three. One two three. And that leaves you with a... a little bit... [Gill:] Right. Yes. It actually explains it. Exactly what they want you to do.... Er where you've got a note that obviously goes over a beat... as in that one there [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] you're, you're going to have to write two quavers and tie them. Is that what you said? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] It might have been what you said []. So those two... okay. That one will be joined to a quaver beat, so that you'll have a group of three. And another quaver, those two will be tied... the join taking them onto the next group of three and so on. [Tom:] So basically you're splitting this in compound time? [Gill:] Yes. [Tom:] So it it'd still sound [Gill:] Cos that, that actually looks as though it's the half way part of the bar too doesn't it? So, and you, you don't actually go over the half [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] way part of the bar with one single note. If you've got a note it's got to be held. You actually split into two an and use a tie.... If you're in two time or four time which you are. You're in four... four dotted... crotchets beats there aren't they?... You will sometimes be asked to... er look at something like that and then put the time signature in. These have got the time signature in but you're, they're asking you to put in the bar lines and then grouping the notes properly. As in that one, you've go you've got to alter what they actually put there. Not going to alter the sound of it. The sound must still be the same but you've got to alter the notes for grouping purposes. That may happen in any of those. I wonder if they've got any here now that haven't got... any time signatures, because that's the other thing that they... they like to give you.... Down here. Add time signatures. Alright. Let's see what you can make of first of all that one. And whether they're all compound, they may not all be compound. Some may be, some may not. I don't know.... Find the simplest bar... in each one. [Tom:] this one. [Gill:] Looking through it that is the simplest one cos you can see [Tom:] Yes. [Gill:] at a glance there are two [Tom:] It's all, it's all [Gill:] groups of three aren't there? [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] So that's obviously going to be in compound time. What though? [Tom:] Erm [Gill:] Fairly easy to put in a time signature. [Tom:] Six twelve. [Gill:] Six er... now wait a minute. What's... four is for crotchets. Eight is for quavers. Double it again, sixteen. [Tom:] Six sixteen. [Gill:] It's gonna be sixteen. So six sixteen. And that actually means two dotted crotch two dotted quavers I mean, doesn't it?... Cos each group adds up to a dotted quaver. [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] So it [Tom:] Yeah. As you've got here. [Gill:] That's right. In fact, if anything, which is the easiest way round of doing it? To be, if you're asked to put in a time signature? It's not always so easy to... to group notes. I think people find that more difficult than actually saying what a time signature is. [Tom:] Mhm. [Gill:] What about that one? [Tom:] Erm [Gill:] Take the simplest bar. [Tom:] Three quavers. [Gill:] So the time signature is? [Tom:] Erm... three eight. [Gill:] Three eight. Now [Tom:] And it's grouped in a dotted crotchet. [Gill:] Yes it is. Now is that compound or is that simple? [Tom:] Three eight is simple. [Gill:] It's simple because it's just got three at the top. [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] It looks as if it ought to be with the compound ones but it's not. It's just an ordinary simple one. But it's quaver beats instead of crotchet beats, that's all. So that was a simple one, that one was a compound one.... We'll do one more. What about this one? Is there an easy? No they're, they're all, virtually all exactly the same [Tom:] Erm [Gill:] timing aren't they? They're not quite the same. [Tom:] two three... four five six [Gill:] Yeah. [Tom:] six erm... six four. [Gill:] Yes. Six four which is dotted? [Tom:] Minims. [Gill:] Two dotted minims. Yes, yes. Two dotted minims in a bar. That's one of them. And that, in fact that's probably the simplest bar isn't it? Because [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] that's a group of three.... Much the same as a dotted, dotted minim.... Erm simple or compound time then? [Tom:] It's [Gill:] Six [Tom:] six four [Gill:] four [Tom:] that's simple. No, compound. [Gill:] Compound. Two, three, four or five would be simple times. Six, twelve... They sound more complicated [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] so think of them as being compound.... Right. That way round then isn't so difficult. That I think you... I think most people find it more difficult having to group the notes in the right, in exactly the right way. So... I think. This is actually a grade four one. We'll lead up gradually [LAUGHTER] to grade five []. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] I'm not going to go all the way back through... grades two and three. You started on two I think. Or you've got Book Two. We'll go, we'll go from [Tom:] I think. [Gill:] here.... And anything that you find you don't know then we can perhaps go back on just the bits that you don't know. Because you're not going to have to go back on many of the things. This book, these books are quite good because they do give you a little bit of explanation.... You've also got er other books or another book at home which you can refer to if you need any extra.... Erm it might be an idea to go back. You won't find you're going to take much time doing some of these. If you do exercise one... for the time being don't worry about that one, exercise three. Shall I write it down? Yes, it would be a good idea, wouldn't it? [Tom:] Mm. Do you want to write on the back of [Gill:] It would be because you've already got some in here haven't you? I think I probably... [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Actually I'll carr I'll carry on on And the date today is... the [Tom:] The twenty... eighth I think. [Gill:] [whispering] Ah the twenty eighth. It's the next thing on isn't it []? So if you're looking in the grade four book... put down page four, exercise one. If you have a look at each one of those. Rather than write them in the book, just put the answers down either on a... on a piece of paper. As long as you put clearly what it is you're putting in. Then I can just use these books over and over again. It's a bit pointless writing in them. When it comes to exercise three... that's on page five, exercise three. When it says add bar lines it won it won't hurt you to actually write those out. Because [Tom:] Okay.... [Gill:] you really need to group the notes. Well the notes are grouped but you're gonna add the. Write it out because it's all good practice for for you actually. At er writing out notes as well.... So... you can do exercise three.... Not that one for now because that's doing something different. Now which are the ones that you've got to... to group?... So far over here. Right. Page... page eight starts... exercise six. In fact do... all of those. Do A through to F. And that's grouping notes... plus the bar lines.... The later ones are always quite hard.... And they've given you... they've actually given you, not in this one, but they do give you the clefs here. They've given you the clefs. Did we look at those before?... Alto clefs and tenor clefs? [Tom:] Er... don't think so. [Gill:] Have you come across those before? [Tom:] come across these. [Gill:] You've come across the treble and the bass right? [Tom:] and the bass, not these alto or whatever. [Gill:] Erm if... just take... just think of singers at the moment. Soprano is the highest, then an alto [Tom:] Soprano, then an alto, tenor, bass [Gill:] tenor and bass. Soprano is the highest voice. Then comes the alto. Then the tenor and then the bass at the. [Tom:] Oh right. So is [Gill:] So [Tom:] that's that's alto. So is that... one up from [Gill:] It's one down from the treble.... Think of it as being the next lot down if you like. Then there would be a tenor clef and then a bass clef. The only reason that, that you're using a different clef is that it's actually putting middle C in a different place. On the stave.... So that for example an alto doesn't need so many... notes, high notes, but needs a few more lower notes. So if you just kept your treble clef you'd have a lot of lines possibly that you weren't using at all. And having to add a lot of low ledger line notes.... That saves doing that. Because they position middle C. Middle C's actually positioned between those bits there so the middle line there becomes middle C.... Which means that you're unlikely to have to have quite so many ledger line notes. Although this has got one or two. But not as many as you would have if you were using the treble clef because you'd probably end up with a lot of lower... this is wha, that isn't a particularly good example really because... it hasn't given a lot of lower notes but normally you'd expect to see more notes down on these... lines. Soprano wouldn't go down that far. A soprano would only go down to about... erm... oh about what? Middle C is probably a bit too low for, for most sopranos.... But an alto would go a lot lower, would go down probably to an F or a G.... So that these notes would be low. If that's middle C you can te what would the bottom line actually be? [Tom:] Bottom line? [Gill:] That's C [Tom:] Er it would [Gill:] It's here. [Tom:] er G. [Gill:] C A F, you're right, yes.... Erm so that in fact... a true alto would be using most of the notes there. And just a few ledger lines above. Unlikely to be using whereas if they were using the treble clef for most of the time... [Tom:] F G. [Gill:] Yes.... And then the other one, the tenor clef.... Have they given you a tenor clef? No. They'll give you a tenor clef a little bit further on. They may not actually put the tenor clef in till grade... grade five now I come to think about that. But there's no point in [Tom:] Not learning it [Gill:] about it now because it's... just as easy really. Tenor clef looks exactly the same but middle C is now there. Next line up in fact.... So... because a tenor sings a little bit lower... you've got more of the lower notes and fewer of the higher... notes before you need to add... start adding ledger line notes. Sometimes of course you'll, they'll still need ledger line notes up there. And perhaps one down there but not very likely. So it's just to make it much more comfortable to look at.... Just means you have to get used to thinking, right if that's... if, if that's er er a tenor clef then that note won't be... it would be, be an A in a bass clef and F in a treble clef. What will it be for that clef? [Tom:] In this... erm... oh [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] Going downwards going backwards is, is more difficult isn't it? [] [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Much easier working upwards from C.... That line's C. So that line [Tom:] C. [Gill:] would be? [Tom:] C A F D [Gill:] Er C A... E... You go one below it. [Tom:] Oh yeah. [Gill:] You know F is next in fact C yes. That's A, that's F, that would be D so it's between the two which, which is an E.... And if you were going above of course, that note would be? [Tom:] E. [Gill:] E and remember that it's the E just above middle C. And that's the E [Tom:] Does the middle C always come up on a line? [Gill:] Well it's... yes it does in fact. Mm. I hadn't actually thought of that before. But yes it does seem to. I suppose theoret theoretically you could actually move middle C to wherever you wanted to have it. But generally speaking they us they use just the four clefs. Now... certain instruments use the [phone rings] alto clef. Just a minute.... [phonecall starts] Hello.... Oh hello.... Alright.... Right I'll fetch him, I'll fetch him. Yes he's here.... Oh somewhere he is.... He's jus just upstai he's just upstairs so I shan't be a moment I'll go and call him [phonecall ends]. [dog barks]... Gosh she's going to have fun with this tape. Go on out you go. [LAUGHTER] [dog barks]... Right... Yes. So middle C then can be almost anywhere. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] What instrument... do you know about... do you think... that uses something other than the treble clef... and a bass clef?... Or have you come across the one that [Tom:] Erm... instrument that I know. [Gill:] Well that, that you might know.... It's not actually a percussion one but it's er... in fact I don't, I think most of the percussion ones tend to use a... a bass clef don't they? [Tom:] Yeah, yeah. [Gill:] If you see one at all. [Tom:] Yeah or erm... xylophones... and glocks and those. Except they use treble and bass [Gill:] They use the treble don't they? Yes. Er... Bass or whatever. [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] Xylophone. Yes, it's a treble. And a vibraphone? [Tom:] Just... I've got one of those nice little [Gill:] Yes. It's just like a, a small... sort of piano. Doesn't have a very long key keyboard. It doesn't I don't think. Quite an [Tom:] It's a piano and it's [Gill:] odd range. It's very high.... Because in fact although it's written from there all the way up to there, erm... that is it starts at the C above middle C and goes up [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] to very high... the unfortunate thing [Tom:] snare drum. I think that's played... on the bass... what would be on the piano an A. [Gill:] Yes. It, it, they use cert certain lines don't they? [Tom:] They use yeah erm [Gill:] So that you, you get to know what is [Tom:] I think it's er [Gill:] what is what. [Tom:] A is the bass drum. [Gill:] Yeah. er [Tom:] I think it's G they use as the high-hat and there's all sorts of things. [Gill:] Yeah. I don't thing they... one thing they don't give in this book is a complete score [Tom:] Yeah. [Gill:] which... oh do they? No they don't. No. Which of course I'll ask yeah I've got plenty of those sort [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] of things anyway. You have to know an awful lot you know for grade five. You, you've gotta have quite a wide knowledge. You, you don't have to, need to know anything in, in depth but you've got to know [Tom:] But you've got to know shallow a wider range. [Gill:] Yes that's right which means in a way that you've got to know quite a lot. There's... erm an alto, no, yes an alto clef, isn't it? For... trombone, no, it's not, it's for, yes it's for one of the trombones, isn't it?... Tuba. [Tom:] Oh I erm found out what that... brass instrument we couldn't think of. [Gill:] What was it? [Tom:] Euphonium. [Gill:] Euphon yes. You're erm... [LAUGHTER] isn't it silly [Tom:] Mm. I've, I've [Gill:] because [] you see I could see wh exactly what you were talking about in my mind [Tom:] Mm. [Gill:] but I could not think of its name. [Tom:] Yeah. I got into the car and I was still erm thinking all about this [Gill:] It's, it's, yeah. [Tom:] and my mother said straight away, oh you're thinking of a euphonium. [Gill:] Yeah. [Tom:] That's the one. [Gill:] Yes. It's so silly isn't it when er... you know that you knew it all the time. Now then. The one I'm looking for is what, have I got to the strings yet? No I haven't got back to the strings. These just use the bass or the treble clef.... And when you get back... to the...... There we are. The strings. It's the viola that we're actually looking for. [Tom:] Sort of bass violin. [Gill:] [LAUGHTER] Sort of bass violin, yes []. There we are. That's the one that uses it. So that you see even in a score it would be written like that.... So that's the only, only instrument that you generally see, actually see using it... in most, most schools. Unless you're going into some of the tenor... erm... and alto

[Anna:] I'll be erm I'll be absolutely I'm sorry but the dreaded lurgy so erm I'll do my best. Erm can I just go shapes and colours. And that's effort we're going to do them tonight. So first of all I'm going to do a triangle of mixed and erm and the red foliage compliments it. And this is the berberis the purple berberis as you know....... Wouldn't stand up would it. It's been awfully hot to try to keep decent flowers and foliage grey, and I've sprayed it with water and I don't think it's entirely satisfactory. Now... do our best.... Ooh these were lovely just now gardens. If you want us to answer any questions, perhaps you'll er you'll tell us.... plant somewhere.... Right, now when I've cut it it all curved the right way [LAUGHTER]. All these bits, it's having to go the other erm... I'm so glad you asked us this evening because we do need some practice. We've been in flowers most of our lives but not demonstrating, which we're finding a bit, a little bit er different.... Erm you know the don't you?... Er I had this in soak all night because it, it dries up quickly. And er then it seems to keep quite a long time if er if you do that.... This has a lovely, but er I think I'm going to put it in the back because my er arrangement is rather heavy, and I don't want it to fall over.... We had er er quite a few catastrophes today with the flowers. And er coming here I found that I hadn't er put any of my vases in, so I had to go back again.... This is one of the purple. It's tree really. But it's so lovely just to have. [speaker002:] How could you condition that? [Anna:] you mean the bath. Just in the bath. [speaker002:] it's in the bath. [Anna:] Yes i if it's too young it won't er keep. This. But just now I think it's just about right, for er... just about right for er using. And here's a bit we want.... I'm not going to need any flowers am I?... I have some er there's some more gladioli. I don't know what they're called these just butterfly. [speaker002:] I er thought they were a bit bigger than [Anna:] Yes, I think so. [speaker003:] Mm I think they're. Just give me some cos we can't go without can we?...... [Anna:] er flowers I bought at an auction. Erm it was. And it wasn't too expensive. But it, I find it useful for large arrangements.... I can just put them down, but I don't awfully like... gladioli when they down I don't think they look like.... [speaker003:] Some more? [Anna:] Yes. Now these aren't coming out very well but they er whoever wins it will very thorny. [speaker003:] Do you want?... [Anna:] always remind me of Spain [speaker002:] Mm. [Anna:] where we er went in the summer and erm lots of lovely geraniums and all the. Compliment the sunshine don't they? Now... Want an outline don't we?... Lovely colour aren't they? Which one's this Annie? [speaker003:] Well it's hazel wood. [Anna:] Norma grows chrysanths and, but she usually knows the names of all of them. I think you'll find the Pennine one... it's stiff and horrible. Whereas if you buy it from [speaker003:] Yes. [Anna:] you know, the flower stalls, [speaker003:] That's right.... [Anna:] ... left in an oasis for all these... I can show you... it's also having... I've some nice red carnations which I shall They're er... not fringe fringed are they? Not very well fringed. I keep this all the ti got some you see... I'm trying to group the flowers together because I think they give more effect that way. And er when you have a er a kaleidoscope, you get all sorts of shapes together don't you?...... It's difficult to get a kaleidoscope nowadays.... Toy ones anyway. What about those? Oh I didn't tell you who they were. I don't that I hadn't forgotten that I gave a I wrote it down. [reading] Bahamas []. They look like Bahamas don't they?... been so hot today if you don't mi er and it makes you feel you know your age, when er it's this hot weather. My er my friend you'll ask how old she is anyway. Mind you she's ninety two [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] she er... she says I can't fasten my beads. I can't er fasten my shoes. I can't fasten my bra, unless I turn it round. An but she says it's. [speaker003:] What a sensible person. [Anna:] Think that's through. [speaker002:] What's the name of that lily please? [Anna:] Erm Pixie. [speaker002:] Pixie? [Anna:] Yes. [speaker002:] It's a lovely one isn't it? [Anna:] We don't want much more in there do we?... the red one, sorry?... We don't know the name of that one either do we? Oh Doris the names. [speaker002:] There's so many aren't there? [Anna:] Well that I can remember... belongs to Mary but I'm afraid they're not very strong. Are they?... I just put those in.... And that will do till... Have you got a triangle? And just to er whet your appetite and I'm a basket of cherries there. [speaker002:] [clapping] [Anna:] I'll just in... [speaker003:] I'm just going to start this evening, with Chase an Object Round the Hedgerow.... A piece of oak which my husband has mounted, so it's freestanding. Some stones which are very good for texture, a piece of sheep shoe wood from Chatsworth Park I picked up. Try saying that after a few gins. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And some which gives a effect.... That'll have to move.... I sort of go scouting when, you know when we're out anywhere, seeing what I can find. Much to my husband's disgust. So I'm going to start an outline, hopefully asymmetrical.... This erm... silver birch? Petula?... It has some lovely catkins on it just now.... This I have boiled to condition it. It has been standing in water all day, and it has been well scraped before it came out this evening.... So this is a tree stump we have here, and we found some mice on the way as well.... Did y did you notice the mice on the [speaker002:] Yes, [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I didn't make them I er I've had a little go but I'm not very good at it. Okay. They are, yes. I got them at a craft fair at farm. [cough] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] colour this is not going to go where I want it to go. But it will.... So that should freeze them, and this is the new shoots round from the bottom. If it looks rather large, we encourage you to do them large.... Cos we're still trainee demonstrators.... We take it again, erm I think we start in October time, at Oxford. We never know when to keep quiet, do we? You know, we say, yes go on handy. We'll go. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Are you coming to Pondsfield? [Anna:] Yes [speaker003:] Yes we are. Yes. Yes. [Anna:] Well we, well we do a different one at Pondsfield. [speaker002:] Sorry? [Anna:] We do a different demonstration at Pondsfield. [speaker003:] I think it, is it this month or is it next? [speaker002:] Yes. Erm... Yes I thought it was Yes it is this month. Yeah. [speaker003:] to go there.... See what we can do with a hedgehog.... Put it down a little bit [LAUGHTER]... we have an asymmetrical. May be a bit laid back but [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [sneeze]... [speaker003:] Get rid of mice. [LAUGHTER]... It's not very big, is it? [speaker002:] It doesn't like the [speaker003:] No it doesn't like something. Sit. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [sneeze] [speaker003:] the mice's nest out there [LAUGHTER]... I have some ferns.... They might not grow round here very well in the hedgerows, but er if you go down to Cornwall or Brittany, they're lovely down there. My husband will never stop so I can go and get some, you know, [LAUGHTER] car keeps going. It comes from an old cottage garden just round where I. But I think I'm supposed to say having. The meaning many. And the are the spores on the back of the... ferns.... Which are the seeds... of them.... And they condition quite well. You know I mean they've got the turn around the spores on the back.... I've also boiled them just, you know, to be sure of them.... Now as was saying earlier on, that she's been with flowers all her life, well I haven't. I started about twelve years ago. And a lady you know very well [LAUGHTER] she's not here tonight. I was going to say, I won't mention her name in case she's run out of. But, er of course, Pam... I went to her classes er about ten years ago. [cough] I started flower arranging about twelve years ago. I had two years with Pam. Then I moved to a different teacher to... get some more, you know, experience. Because you do learn more from different teachers as you go along. And then I've worked at. I did the City and Guilds at..... These are er... long stick leaves. It's true [LAUGHTER]. It's where I've er formed its centre. Again aren't they a size? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] I thought they would sort of er pass as hedgerowey leaves.... And that's er how and I have demonstrated because she hasn't got transport of her own. She finds it a little bit difficult. So er we demonstrate together. You know. And er... so we travel to... And er, Plantain, the ordinary one [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] from the hedgerow again.... They last quite well. I did get some seed from Botanical Gardens, of their Plantain. But er I didn't manage to grow it.... Oh lovely, you know, some nice big leaves for, flower arranging.... My husband puts these on the compost heap when he gets his eye on them. I nursed one last year for Newark Show. I thought oh you know you're always short of large leaves. For the base. So I was nurturing this one in the greenhouse. And I went down one day. It's supposed to be my greenhouse. And it was missing. I said, what's happened to the plantain? He said, ooh do you mean that weed? It's on the compost heap. It was, it was coming on lovely. I said I was going to have. [LAUGHTER]... And that's what happened to that.... Some foxgloves.... I've only got two. [LAUGHTER]... And I'm inundated in the garden with them. You know. They to start with. At least that's where I think they come from. And this year I've got them, they're a good seven foot tall in the garden. they've been marvellous, haven't they? To say they're a wild flower or classed as a wild flower.... And the markings inside are, you know... they're....... So I'll put those in there.... Get good keep of the time here don't we? Erm some poppies. Another shape I think you'll find in hedgerows.... Alice. Mine are just starting to come out. They're a big red poppy this one. Mine are the pinky purply one. These are you know really magenta red.... The mice get into those, they'll be a bit tipsy. won't they? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [cough]... some pheasant feathers. lovely markings, haven't they? [cough] Think you might find some of those in a hedgerow?... Different texture again.... [Anna:] you can never find any going, can you?... [speaker002:] Oops. [speaker003:] You sort of learn as you go on. You don't put too much stuff in till you get your flowers in. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] come out as I tell you. Single chrysanthemum. They're the flowers chrysanths and I say, they come from Holland. The ones I grow at home er well they are named. They are mostly Ryes from Moor. [cough] that I had... and I show them.... Although lately if I'm flower arr er showing at the yeah flower arranging at shows I've then got time to show the flowers.... I'm caught you know betwixt and between, which do I like the best. [LAUGHTER]... We've put enough in this floral fiesta. I don't know whether we'll get a you know, any places or not. But we put in to go anyway. [LAUGHTER] Someone once told me, aim high, she says. So we have a go. [speaker002:] Which? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] So you you're not supposed to get it, you know, it's er... we'll take the leaves off. [speaker002:] We've put in for the club entry and we're just waiting to hear, you know, if we've been lucky or not. Or rather [speaker003:] Well we've been on to and they don't seem to do an awful lot. You know, I was, rather surprised. I'm going to recess these a little bit. In the middl in the centre. [cough] We haven't had a lately have we? These I've boiled again to, you know it brings the head down, and I think it does make th the flowers last longer.... Put about stem in boiling water and er, let it stand for about thirty seconds....... Now this is for the dog daisies that you get in er hedgerows. I haven't said that have I yet?... As I grow chrysanths we have to do erm [cough]... I'm not getting the right word. A survey it's a at the college you know, and er and they did er carnations and I've done, the chrysanths about growing them. So I thought well I might as well do something, I know a little about. [LAUGHTER]... So we did that.... And you've got er... I've got some notes here and I've got them covered up with something else. That's clever, isn't it?... [Anna:] ... [speaker003:] Nice and cool, the white and green, isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Now for the...... that out and I'll see what I've written down for this [LAUGHTER] Oh yeah [] er... see Sue lost it erm... well it's a canine meaning, you know, the rose erm the dog rose. But, instead of that... digress a little but because I didn't think you'd like the dog roses. So No. I've taken the thorns off, and I've defoliated them. And I've also boiled the ends as you can see there. It's... that one. Now I had a right job with them. [LAUGHTER]... I was trying to tell them it wasn't so hot yesterday and then coming out and out you know. So me and got the, the ice packs out of the freezer. And I drop kept dropping into the buckets [LAUGHTER] to cool the water down. [Anna:] It was terrible hot yesterday. [speaker003:] It was. Yes. And I haven't got an awful lot of shade at home, you know. [Anna:] No. [speaker003:] So er... I was having a rare old time. We were dropping the ice packs in to try and keep the. Are they hot? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker003:] I sometimes, if I can get the new floribunda roses, but er... there's none in the market, and we got these. Yes.... Yes. I've got an introduction to the wholesale market. But you can't buy an awful lot, you know. Erm... because that you want more than your bits and pieces. Right. For function roses you're okay but er... a lot of things real go to erm, a place, well it, it's. It's just on the outskirts of. Er, it used to be called Joe, but he's died and Woods have got it now. And they're very helpful.... Now you say you like your gardens open. I was going to bring a, a poster for you and I've forgot it. What with Anna running me up and down the countryside. [LAUGHTER] They, they've got gardens open in Calverton on the twenty fifth of July. There's six gardens open, for a pound. It's er a garden walkabout.... And it's open two o'clock till six. If anybody'd be interested.... It's for the preservation society.... And the last one going in.... Now goes missing, we'll have to give her a shout. Ooh she's she's there. [LAUGHTER] what she thought she was missing. [speaker002:] ... [speaker003:] So you... shapes and textures from the hedgerow. [speaker002:] [clapping] [break in recording] [crowd noise] [Anna:] Is there anything quick and easy. I hope. It, it hasn't been so far because I'm left right behind a background. Erm right then. Erm the lovely with the terracotta, aren't they? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] Er. Yes. But it er... er, do you want this? Er, I got this. and I used them this year... and they er I've got quite a lot of Right furry I was er hoping to get... I don't think these'll come out somehow. The lady in the shop was very good. I looked right through them all and er... however. This is er a quick thing you can do. When you get home. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] We use this for all the Egyptian things we do. It's very good.... That's a lovely one. Look at that. I think it's Enchantment. But it's, it's quite pink for Enchantment, isn't it? If it is Enchantment. [speaker002:] Where did your pot come from? [Anna:] Sorry? The pot? [speaker002:] Where did the pot come from? [Anna:] Er.... yes it was. I've got one or two that came from abroad but no this was Liverpool, [speaker002:] Yeah. [Anna:] on the road er...... They've got quite a good selection now. Haven't they? Now we'll just give it a little bit of lift. I'm going to add these canes. Canes. put that one. And put that one in the top.... These were bought at er... I think you can get some in the, in the florist.... I'll just do a I don't know if any more petals... will last. There I think that's [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker003:] Now. my daughter's looking for a actually. So. I've had to, this cupboard's because it's got cutlery and the plates and that, so I've just put a piece of er material over it. To hide them.... And I'm going to put two pieces of garden cane in. just hold the basket for me.... I think. [LAUGHTER]... Small garden cane [LAUGHTER]... It's made it rather heavy with er, the material on it as well. That's better. Just stay there.... Mm. So this is going to be an A back asymmetrical. Triangle. I've got a plastic container here to raise the oasis on the saucer, up a little bit because it's quite deep inside. So er... It makes it easier to... find the saucer if it's raised. I'm going to start with the outline of, from the garden. Which has again been boiled.... I think it's a lovely light foliage isn't is? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] So refreshed. And I thought well I... I'll do this with all summer flowers.... I've got this. It's grown on a, a north facing wall so bit, bit more now I think if it got more sun. You know. The golden foliages need a lot of sun.... Or the elderflower. Do you make elderflower wine or champagne? [speaker002:] Mm. Yes. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Have you [speaker002:] I've done it for my grandchildren this year. [speaker003:] Oh. I was going to say have you got any with you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Well, I made some ooh a few years ago. And my husband at the time was making er wine, you know. And he said, you've put far too much sugar in that. You've put far I said I'm just following this recipe. You know. And he was right. I did put far too much sugar in it cos it all exploded. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Kep kep [LAUGHTER] kept my busy, you know. That's another one gone mum and that's [LAUGHTER] another one gone []. They were in the garden shed. And I was just saying I'm going to have to go down there. [speaker002:] What happened then? [speaker003:] Erm. Oh I had then. I've told you about grandchildren. I've just had two presented to me in the last eight months. I've got a granddaughter and a grandson. [cough] The granddaughter I look after because my, my daugh youngest daughter's gone back to work. And she's called Jordan. Spelt J O R... D A N. And she, she's eight months old now. You forget how many hands a baby has, don't you? You know, you get out of practice, and there it starts. She's found that my glasses didn't seem to be right. So her hands were up and they were off before I knew where they were. And then she's, you're trying to feed her and the, the dinner's all over the place. So now we wrap her in a tea towel so you know her hands are under cover. Erm... It's erm I think. I got it given to me so er if you think it's a different one you can tell me.... So when you get a lot of things given, you know, I never say no. [LAUGHTER] but you don't always get the right name, do you?... Do she really did it on me well it was yesterday I had her. I was changing her nappy for her. Well she started flopping along the floor on her back. And you, you know she, she can go at some pace. So I started changing her nappy for her and she decided she was going to take off. It was like hanging on to a wriggly eel. You know? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] She was trying to move. So the next time I thought, No madam you're on the settee on your changing mat, and er I've got you. [LAUGHTER]... And the other one Aaron. A little boy. He lives in London.... My eldest daughter she works down there. And when she said she was going to have a baby, rather a surprise at the new year time. So we said, well what would you, you know, can we get something? Well they're living away. What can we get you for the baby? So she said, oh two bedside cabinets and a drop-leaf table. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] So.... I says to her, well what you know what can you do with that? Well you can help me to cope with him, she said, you know. So she's got the two bedside cabinets but not the drop-leaf table. Er now this is grown in Calverton. We have a small nursery there. And he grows them in wind tunnels. He hadn't got a big selection... [cough] but I went down er... I was going to use stocks. was going to use stocks and er... oh gladioli that was it. And when we went to the market they didn't have any on as I say, Anna went to... and got her gladioli.... So Jord Jordan and I had a walk down to the mark the nursery yesterday morning. Before it got too hot. [LAUGHTER]... seven nurseries at Calverton. Did, did you know that we have one there now? Quite industrious.... if we get packets sent [LAUGHTER]... The butchers...... If you get one thing set in your mind what you're going to do, and you know, you go off to get it, and then er if you don't manage it, then you have to start again. This is erm the mallow, the shrub. This is the rose and I've also got hidden in the box somewhere. You might be able to some of it because it grows ever so easily you know. If anybody wants some I've got, quite a good specimen. [LAUGHTER] [crowd noises] There's quite a few at the back now, isn't there? The really deep purply one as well.... Yeah. Oh pinching the pink and whites.... This is a paler one a bit pink.... This. I've left a shoot on there. Take all the flower heads off if you want it to grow. If you don't all the strength goes into the flowers.... These have got or haven't you?... And I've got some. Got this in the garden as well. It came down from Scotland. My mother had it in her garden. So it... think it likes the water very much.... Give you a little chance to talk and get, catch up with all your news or something [LAUGHTER]... I hope you're not [LAUGHTER] I find it isn't it?... sweet peas. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] I'm going to put these in some because like Anna says you know if you flowers you have more impact with them. Now these are grown on my neighbours fence. I did ask. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] They're grown on my neighbours fence and it comes on to my path. And she doesn't like them. for her to have them in the house. So I, ooh you know, could I have some? And I did have some of the as well so. [LAUGHTER] I will be short of a little bit of blue so you have your kaleidoscope. There.... blue. [crowd noises] Well they say the more you pick them the more they come isn't it? So let's hope they're right.... And this you know sort of more flowers on as well. I bought some of them er from the show last year. Entered show last year. I got second prize. [LAUGHTER] I was quite pleased with that you know because it's er [speaker002:] Good show mm. [speaker003:] It is, yes.... I think you have to round all your friends and family you know [LAUGHTER] [tape change] Nice Yorkshire flowers.... Nice there's some of them that look as though they're double.... [cough] I've had the dreaded cough as well Haven't you had it in Southwell yet? If, if you get it [LAUGHTER] if you get it everyone has it [crowd noises] I think I'm doing a little bit what we did last night [cough] Excuse me.... Bit short of colour.... And just to give it a centre. It's. I've had it thirty years in my garden.... [LAUGHTER]... Think could have been done with tree but er So a pretty basket of summer flowers. [speaker002:] [clapping] [break in recording] [Anna:] For a different I'm going to That's right. I've got some candles just to give it some height. Erm I'll tell you about the er while I'm doing some. Erm... we call it the cherry chucker [LAUGHTER].... Erm because when I was a little girl my brother and I we used to flowers because my mother sold flowers and we would have to deliver them. To our regular customers.... And er... we didn't always remember where they lived.... And er, oh this is the. Lovely green.... And er... and so, explaining to my brother where, or trying to get out of him where the, the customer lived. Erm... he'd say, you know the row of houses where er... where they have all things in the bay windows that I er... I er... an Alsatian dog... or a... an aspidistra... or a, a cherry chucker. And the ch the cherry chucker, the ones with little girls holding [speaker002:] Oh yes. [Anna:] cherries in them. Ever since then all these kind of er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] So it's now a family joke.... It's lovely.... This room is so fresh looking....... And the You know the white And that's just nice just now isn't it?... And of course we've got this I have a little dog and she loves to roll in this. So I have to tie it up. And the cat.... day we had a cat in our garden and er... my dog isn't as big as a cat. It's a Yorkshire terrier. And the dog barged through th the cat barged through the hedge. And I thought, I hope the dog doesn't follow because it's a main road. And it sat at the other side of the gate [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] as if to say you can't get me now. And er... luckily she didn't follow it, but the cat did get and go away. And er... a car came by at that moment. I shut my eyes.... But it was er it was fine.... I think I a bit put it in the back now.... lovely shape... This is for orchids and this is the... the fern that comes with them, which is quite useful.... [speaker002:] How do you condition the [cough] [Anna:] Oh I just boiled the ends a bit and erm... and then put it in deep water.... And I, I have sprayed it this week because it's been so hot. So I sprayed it with a fine spray and it's kept very well, hadn't it? But er I think this sun will brown it, don't you? Brown it quite a lot.... I'd just like one I've er...... orchids. I think they employ little men to twist them together. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Anna:] I was in Singapore some years ago and erm... [cough] when we, well when we landed, all the ladies were given a an orchid. It was rather nice. And erm... when I came away again I brought some orchids with me. And for an armful I paid thirty shillings.... I thought that was very to have turned round.... Lovely colours in these..... Some of them are.... It was lovely to see them growing in er... Singapore. And we had some friends there and one day one of them rang me up and she said, could, could we come quickly we've got a, a monitor lizard in the garden? Well I'd never seen a monit she didn't know how to. I said, alright we'll come and on the way. I said, what have you done about it? She said, I've hit with a sweeping brush. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] [LAUGHTER] So I said, alright shut the door and we'll come. And er... when we got there there was a little chit-chat about that. [LAUGHTER] It was a tiny lizard but... not er not that you would want to hit with a sweeping brush.... And while we were, while we were there we had some invitations to, to dine out with... well it was my daughter's and we went and had a meal with them... and they were quite taken back by er... they lived in this little which originally I had thought was a... was a er... a poultry house. It looked like a poultry house. And er when we got inside, it was spotlessly clean and shiny. It was lovely. And er all the children went out while we had a meal. I couldn't see any clothes about anywhere. Just a lot of furniture in there but there was nothing hung about you know. And so er... we had this meal which was curry. Chicken curry. And er... it was lovely and we were enjoying it until... I pulled out the whole chicken's head. Knife in it. So I'm afraid that did put me off.... Yes that did put me off.... So I stuck to all the side dishes, which were... they were very nice. Cucumber and all sorts of exotic things that er. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] However it was lovely staying there and it was lovely weather. Here's a tip... rather nice.... Shame to cut them down now isn't it?...... I've got one or two pinks. These are the pinks. They smell gorgeous too. Just to fill in....... [cough]... quite high.... Last year we were going to er... a show at er...... and I was doing a modern arrangement and er, we were in Norman's van. And one of my er... [LAUGHTER] had a, a just a tiny flaw in it. And I said to Norman have you got anything in here that would cover it up? [speaker002:] [cough] [Anna:] He said I've got a frog. I said I don't think. So er... as we was going along this ladybird flew on to my hand, didn't it? Well I thought about it. I looked at it. I thought, How do you kill a ladybird? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] So I didn't. [LAUGHTER] So I went off to the er... at the show. I just er... put the one loose into er... into the top where the judge wouldn't see it I hoped.... And I won a first prize so I said,. So it shows you never should kill a ladybird.......... Make a bad saint wouldn't I?... pretty. more foliage.... Quite nice and in the at. Because they go in a caravan.... a secret but I don't know whether I dare tell you. [LAUGHTER] But er I was with a gentleman friend. I don't know whether [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] She said, let me know. you might as well go to bed with a Mills and Boon. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] I don't mind who knows You know I think I'm Old flames isn't it?... It's got a star. Look....... I think everyone's finding er... Alright?... I think I might put those in. Somebody told me I had. I don't I.... Mrs always does the most clever. [speaker003:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] I've forgotten. Oh [speaker003:] Oh yes.. Yes. [crowd noises]... [Anna:] Yes.... And er... there'll be white while. Someone hanging up their secateurs. Yes. I should say, Well thank goodness for that. You're the twelfth one. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Anna:] I know. But we weren't the twelfth choice. No doubt we were the next day. [LAUGHTER] Now there we have our [speaker002:] [clapping] [break in recording] [speaker003:] Now you have to have what a European style. So we're going to finish this evening with a European style. I have two margarine cartons in here.... [cough] And a Fuchsia which is called Superstar. I just plant some people own. And it just fills it in. I think a plant rather than foliage or whatever. So.... We're going to do a European hedgerow style.... But for the height. And the purple.... And it's a little bit different from other flowers. This has the from the top down, doesn't it. I think the heat's got to the greenery. Well it's, it looks like it's been cooking. [LAUGHTER]... [cough] I'll scrape it.... I just have to this crescent there. buy flowers you know. By the time she gets to the den she's always got another ready. You think, where's she got those from? You know she didn't buy those while we were out.... football....... And this you know [cough] like this style you can make it small or large as you like, and you can come out to the sides as well. Give it extra length. It's based on the high, and the verticals and you don't have a point. Where all your flowers come from the same point.... While we were at we went down to er... Oakham. To a day school. With two Danes come over from Belgium. To show us how to do the hedgerow and the European round table design as well.... Well we thought, well you know, we c we can do a bit. [LAUGHTER]... I'm just thinking I've got these on the wrong horizontal scale.... I think this is the Connecticut King... I'm going to have to make a corner there.... Now it's very easy to do this, you know. Don't be frightened to have a go at it. I did er a day school. Taught it myself, you know. At er Woodroffe. I started doing the teacher's cause because I thought I'd like to teach. And of course they closed all the night classes, didn't they? Erm I think that one will. Now what I want to do is er... I have to set this you know and find a venue to go to. But with all these grandchildren and what have you, I don't seem to have any time. And camping [LAUGHTER]... We've just come back from Cornwall and it was very wet.... peninsula. You've got the Atlantic on both sides and er... it's lovely if you've got the weather, you know. Really lovely. But we didn't have the weather. And in fact one nine o'clock back to the tent. Got a tent [LAUGHTER] that we sit in and cook in. And erm... we got there and I says to my husband I says, oh, I says er, are you sure that tent's safe? You know it's... battling about a bit. So erm... blue again because I er a bit short on blue for the kaleidoscope. Er it's not the is it? Yes. I didn't want to say that. [LAUGHTER] This is from the cottage garden again. From you know round. Oh short of blue, could, could I have a little bit?... Erm... and now getting back to Cornwall. sayin saying to my husband says, well I don't think the tent sounds very safe you know. It keeps flapping about and that. I thought, oh dear, so we got to bed by this time, and we lay, and we just couldn't get to sleep for the noise the tent was making. So he says, might be a good idea t to you know put the van in front of the tent to break the wind. So I was laid out in the back of the van on the bed and he's driving down this field to put the tent, because it had little er bits you know where it's marked out for you to camp, and I'm driving around in the back saying, yes you've, you've just missed the fence there and you know. I can't see where we're going because I didn't have my glasses on. So it was quite there you know. Erm [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] I got it from I bought it at er Blooms. In Norfolk.... So I'll keep the yellows together. And another theme of the European is the grouping of the colours. I don't know how I'm going to because I've got some peculiar colours. [LAUGHTER]... But I'm having the yellow. I think that is the nearest I could get to the orange. You know to be the opposite to the purple. If you get what I mean. [LAUGHTER] As it's opposite in the... on the colour wheel, isn't it? Now these are little ones I've grown in the greenhouse myself. They haven't been fed properly, so they're not very big. But it's a sort of purply pink so... they'll go down here.... And you know to cut between the on these. Yes. We'll start to take the water out. Anna didn't tell you and she's the expert on flower arrangement.... And I think that ties in nicely with the pink in the.... Some more yellow. It's. And I like these... you know you still want to come in. I don't want to go out to much to the side there.... I always later.... Now as I was picking the ivy for this, I've got a cherry a standard cherry tree... and the starlings get on my fence and they queue up to get on that cherry tree, you know you can hear them chattering away. If you go out shoving them off they go up on to the roof of the house, and as soon as you turn your back they're back again. Well these had got, these cherries had been growing where they couldn't see them you know. nice of cherries this morning. [LAUGHTER] But I don't think they were quite ready yet. You know they were nice and red but er... these birds and I've, I've got them covered, but it's quite tall so I can't keep it all covered. But they can beat me to it every time. And they weren't the least bit frightened.... I'll just put a little bit wispy in the back... because when I was in Hans' class, the best triangle I ever did was lovely, really pleased with it and it collapsed didn't it? Because I hadn't put in the back. [LAUGHTER] A little bit of the juniper shape and texture.... Going into there.... The only colour's the blue... you know but it's er... I always make so noise with anybody's paper. isn't it.... Something else you don't see much of these days isn't it? I was brought up in the country, on a farm you know, so... I'll try and sort of make you know equal amount of flowers in each, and then er it can be halved. In the raffle. If you want to, it's up to you.... I'm pleased you haven't got spotlights here. [LAUGHTER] Last year we went to er Kirkby to a dem all day. It was a, it was just a lecture theatre. And they had these spotlights on and we were melting. And you know like we'll sit down and one take turn from the other. I went through the back to sit on the chair. Very posh theatre it was. Sat down and I fell through the whole of the chair. The back went you know the seat of the chair went the back. [LAUGHTER] I said [whispering] didn't you hear anything []? She said, no never heard a thing. [LAUGHTER]... landscape.... Have you got some red roses for me Anna?... Anna's you know. [LAUGHTER]... Lovely colour aren't they? They're just starting you see them more it would be nice to have them but you know. lovely. Erm... so a little bit of and... [cough] This is [Anna:] ... [speaker003:] I'll put it in there. Then I'll have the red roses.... It's rather you know. Putting the links in. This is er.... There's a little erm... piece in there you might want to [speaker002:] [whistling] [speaker003:] Lay it on top of the potted peat down a little bit.... Oh I'm that aren't you? I always find small plants you know to watch them grow. [speaker002:] much entertainment. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] It is nice down where the swans are, isn't it?... Now this hasn't really got going yet. And it's the bloody dog. [LAUGHTER] The. So if I can get it going you know it's, it's er... there you can see look what.... go. Yes.... [speaker002:] Couldn't you, can you not air off the carnation?... [speaker003:] This isn't the ideal.... Crisper.... Yeah. I was surprised the size the leeks are getting. [speaker002:] Oh yes.... [speaker003:] And some of the older ones are even bigger. Thanks very much.... This is Sandra, I hope. The person I got it from. Sandra I don't know if you have it here have you? Demonstrating? [cough] I got that from Sandra. I, I went in her class as well at Mansfield.... And then I decided that was to do with again. That was when I decided to go to to do the City and Guilds course.... but we'll have a go. Er the the shrubby one. As opposed to the one that grows tall. I've got them both.... I thought it was a very good point. Yes?... And they'll dry nice but I think you'd need to put a stiff wire in them now while they're st you know young. But they will dry nicely and... you can either keep them green, or you can spray them you know at Christmas time.... If you wrap them in newspaper you keep the green better. Keep.... The demonstrator we had last night I demonstrator. He said he puts his dry material er into glycerine or... er antifreeze.... For a day. So it, you know, it's not so brittle.... Now I've got some roses to put in somewhere haven't I?... Yeah. They'll have to go that side. [LAUGHTER]... Erm... [cough]... We thought we should try and do something as a kaleidoscope. So we have a round shape of a kaleidoscope.... Hopefully it behaves itself. trying to... make it balance all afternoon so I had to start it yesterday [cough] to make it balance.... Yes I'm coming. And it's not going to do it. [speaker002:] [sneeze] [sneeze] [speaker003:] isn't it?... Put it down a little bit more. Got girls? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Who was the demonstrator you had last night then? [speaker003:] Er Yes. Yes. He's off to G-Mex today he says.... He's got a dem toda you know he's doing something there.... He grows all his own material. Well he, at the moment he says he's self sufficient.... Which I suppose we all should be really shouldn't we?... He had an allotment which he grows his material on. You know at home. He said you've got all these men, straight lines with the vegetables and that and er... he's got his, you know, rows and rows of... different stuff he has in.... [cough]... I straight in to yellow or yellow to orange.... [speaker002:] ... [speaker003:] Oh I've got some.... And wrap a little bit of your Autumn Joy... been quite conned into flower which as I say I think looks a little bit like broccoli doesn't it? [Anna:] You know it does. Good rough texture. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I'll just put it back a little bit there.... It all works out differently you know it, it looks very nice with er spring flowers as well.... Got a nice bright green ivy. Well they did have when I bought them. That's always a sign of freshness in the chrysanths.... But they had all sorts of virtually now don't they?... That's why I didn't want to go to the edge because I wanted to try and do my own.... [LAUGHTER]... I might have to hold on to it You'll have to get people to you know. put it on the table now.... Don't come [LAUGHTER].... [speaker002:] [clapping] [break in recording] [speaker003:] Thank you ladies for inj for er inviting us here. We've enjoyed the evening. As we say we need all the practice we can get. And we wish you a safe journey home. Thank you. [speaker002:] [clapping] it's a pleasure to say thank you to Mrs and Mrs for your kaleidoscope of colour. We've really enjoyed it.

[Martin:] Now presumably you're doing this... er personality analysis, as part of trying to work out who you are and where you're going. Is that right? [Lente:] That's right. [Martin:] Yeah. Okay. Well that's fine. That's what we normally use it for and erm... what I'm going to do if that's okay is I, I'll describe the erm... the actual theory to you [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and get you to self estimate er where you come on it [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you see. And I've got a little chart that I'll give you to do that on. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And then erm we'll have three readings, really, of erm... where you come [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] on the chart. One of which is this erm estimate that you'll do now. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And then you've filled in a works situations [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] questionnaire, and that gives us another reading. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And then there's the proper questionnaire and I've scored that up. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] So we get three readings. Okay? And then erm we work out erm... a best fit [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] er you know so far as we can get that erm and I'll then give you a description of how the theory er predicts your er preferences for behaving in particular ways, would work out. [Lente:] Mhm. [Martin:] And you can read that and we can have a... bit of a... discussion about that [Lente:] Mhm. [Martin:] to see if you think it's appropriate and [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] accurate or not. Erm and basically er the, the reason for doing it that way is that erm, I don't want to set up a situation where erm I'm some sort of expert and I er... this is not a matching process, okay? [Lente:] No. No. [Martin:] It it's really to give you er whatever insights you can get from this particular theory, erm about the way in which your, your personality works [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] so that then you can use that er to make er a better career decision. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And indeed actually it's quite interesting anyway for all sorts of [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] er applications. Erm but the idea is that it should be, very much be something which you erm er you know the, the estimate and so on is, is something which you've contributed to [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] rather than have imposed on you by somebody else. Because th the key thing is that you should be more in charge, not that you should be receiving erm some statement from an expert which then determines what happens, you know? [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] So it's that sort of process. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Does that sound okay? [Lente:] That's fine. That's fine. [Martin:] Good. Okay. Well erm I'll give you the er little chart here. Now erm... oh you've got a pen. Excellent. Erm if you, if you, if we just er look at that for a moment. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] The way it works is that the theory, the theory actually erm er has four dimensions. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] That's why there are four of those. And what we'll do is I'll tell you er what each dimension consists of. And the idea is that that's the midpoint and there's a one to ten scale going each way. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And erm you work out whether your preference is very strongly this way or a bit this way or a bit that way. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And just put a mark on the line to indicate the strength of the preference. Does that sound okay? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Right. Well let me explain briefly th th the overall structure of the theory. All personality theories divide personality up into dimensions. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm this one has four dimensions. Sometimes they have about twenty. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm and the theories differ, in terms of what the dimensions are called, and what it consists of. And erm this theory has four dimensions, and each dimension consists of two polar opposite types of behaviour. And the theory is that every individual has an innate inborn preference for behaving at one end or the other. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Okay? Er now it's important to get the idea of what preference means in this context. It is not an exclusive predisposition. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So it doesn't mean to say that you only behave at one end or the other. Erm in fact life requires everybody to behave at both ends. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But the theory is that there's a biologically inherited preference. [Lente:] Right. Mm. [Martin:] Now the ex the analogy which is used, to, to sort of explain this a bit further, is, is with handedness. Are you right or left handed? [Lente:] Right handed. [Martin:] Okay. So that means, in, in the analogy that your right hand is your preferred hand. Okay. Erm have you ever tried to write your name and address with your left hand? [Lente:] Yes and I was hopeless at it. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Hopeless. How did you feel while you were trying []? [Lente:] Er really strange actually. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] I felt that I was using a part of me that wasn't used to functioning and I've just recently started juggling [Martin:] Oh really. Yes. [Lente:] and er I have a real problem with using my left hand. [Martin:] Oh interesting. Because erm the, the erm what usually people say is that erm if you use your non-preferred area in the psychological sense, then it's very hard work because you haven't got the same degree of control as you have in the other [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] areas. So to achieve a, a sort of given result you have to work much harder. Erm and usually it feels very awkward. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] It doesn't feel comfortable at all. Erm but if you persist you get better. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And you know normally with the handedness, you don't use your left hand unless you break your right wrist or something. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But in the psychological area you do have to use it, you know quite a lot of the time. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm but you should be able to improve. Er you know, but none the less there is this preference. That's the idea really. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Okay so that's the idea of preference. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Now there are, there's one preference on each of the four dimensions. Er and that means that there are sixteen different preference combinations y you know that [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] are possible. Erm and er the other thing about it is that although we have to look at, in order to discover the preference, we have to look at each dimension as a discrete entity, once you've found the preferences, they actually have a dynamic relationship with each other. [Lente:] Right. Yeah. [Martin:] And the description which I'll give you allows for that. And also when we, when we've worked out the best fit preference, I'll explain a bit more about how the dynamic relationship [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] works. Okay? [Lente:] Okay. [Martin:] Right. So that's, that's the end of the overview. So shall we start trying to work out what the preferences [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] are? Now the first dimension is extrovert and introvert. Ca [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] can you write on this erm extrovert on the left hand end where the dots are and introvert on the other end. Right. Now I'm sure you've heard of these terms before. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm but I think the important thing is that Jung on whom this er particular theory... it's based on his [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] theories. Erm he was the person who invented those terms. And of course he meant something probably rather different from what the popular meaning is. So it's important to define it really. This, this dimension is about er where you prefer to focus your attention and where you get your psychological energy from. Okay? [Lente:] Oh right. Yes. [Martin:] And that's what this dimension's about. And the erm extroverts are people who prefer to focus outside themselves, on the world of people and things. The introverts prefer to focus on their own inner world, of hopes, dreams, fears, aspirations, ideas. Whatever's inside. Now if I give you an example of a bit of behaviour where... erm a situation... and, and er give you an idea of how introverts and extroverts would behave in that area, that may help you to work out which you think you are. Say you're with a group of students and erm you're sitting round drinking coffee one morning, and the sun's shining. And somebody says, let's go to Scarborough for the day. You know it's a terrific day, let's go to the seaside. Erm now the extroverts preferred response, to that, is an instantaneous reaction, which they share. Oh terrific idea. Yes. I'll go and get my fishing rod. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Or, oh no. I can't stand the seaside. Couldn't we go to the North York Moors [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] instead. Right so instantaneous. Now introverted people hate being asked to make instantaneous reactions. They actually want to think about it. Whatever it is, they want to think about it. Erm and then, they may share. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Or they may not. Erm now what they say about erm extroverts is that, if you don't know what an extrovert thinks, you haven't listened. She will have told you. Er if you don't know what an introvert thinks, it's because you haven't asked her. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Okay so there is a difference in, in, in that way. Erm and I told you how the extroverts would behave. Now an extreme introvert, might be er sort of case you know, you're, you're erm er cutting up the sandwiches or whatever preparations you've got to do and so on. Er and you then, you get to the time when you're all going to get in the car and go off. And erm the er this particular person just isn't there. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Well they've decided they're not gonna go. They haven't actually told anybody. Er er and they've just [LAUGHTER] disappeared []. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm a less introverted erm er response would be, half way through the preparations to say, well you know actually I'm, I don't really think I can come. I mean I've got this person to see, or this essay [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] to write, or something to buy in town, or whatever you know [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] They thought it over and they've worked out, and they're not gonna come. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Now of course these sort of situations do cause a few problems, because, or can do, because erm the extroverts expect everybody to share, you see. Erm and of course if you had half a dozen students, and two of them were extroverts, and they both wanted to go, and they both said, Yeah. Terrific idea. And maybe the other four wouldn't like it at all. But if [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] they weren't actually saying anything, then probably the plan would sort of go ahead and, and, and then you might find that you know half of you didn't actually go. Erm the other thing about extroverts and introverts is that erm, extroverts really like to do their thinking er by er putting out their point of view, and getting everybody else's point of view out, and, and looking at it. But for introverts, really, thinking is done in here, you know. And they don't, they're not so keen on, on the sharing really. Erm I mean does that give you an idea of which [Lente:] Yeah yeah [Martin:] way you go. Okay. Yeah. Sorry, do you wanna stick down. [Lente:] Right. [Martin:] Mm. You were gonna say something. [Lente:] Is it just, well I was j er I mean I find it hard cos I suppose everybody to some extent, in the, the extent to which they live in their own house, [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] are introverted. If you see [Martin:] Right. [Lente:] what I mean. [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] I mean I am just as much as anybody else. But I think naturally with [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] the sort of analogy with going to [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] Scarborough I think I'm much more extrovert. [Martin:] Okay. Yeah right. [Lente:] And I think I will have come out that way on the thing. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] Do I put a cross? [Martin:] Yes. A cross would do fine.... Right, okay, the next one is sensing and intuition. Sensing on the left and intuition on the right.... Okay. Right. Now this one is about erm how you prefer to take in information, how you prefer to understand things. It's about perception. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Now the sensing person, prefers to use her five senses to perceive what's going on about her. And prefers to concentrate on present concrete reality. What she can actually see, touch, smell, hear, taste. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] If she can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it, taste it, it doesn't exist. That's a bit extreme but it gives you the idea. Now the intuitive person on the other hand prefers to use her sixth sense. And erm prefers to focus on future possibilities rather on present reality. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So it's not erm, what exactly is the nature of this relationship? it's, how might it develop, what might it become? Or not, exactly what is this thing I've got here and what can I use it for now? How might it be changed? What other uses might it have. Erm intuitive people have inspirations and hunches which they trust whereas sensing people are pretty mistrustful of inspiration. And they don't like intuitive leaps which intuitive people make. Sometimes they won't, intuitive people can't actually tell you exactly how they've arrived at this perception, they've just got it. Er and sensing people find that ex extremely odd [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and erm really very unsatisfactory. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm and the sensing people want a step by step logical statement of how somebody has reached erm [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you know a particular conclusion. Erm I once, talking to somebody about this and er he said erm, well he said I think I must be an intuitive because I've never let the facts get in the way of a good idea. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Now for er sensing people it's probably the other way round. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] The ideas have to come from the facts. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Do you do you have a [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Okay, right. Fine. Jolly good. Next one. Erm next one is thinking on the left [Lente:] Mm. Right. [Martin:] and no sorry just thinking. [Lente:] Oh. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] and erm feeling on the right. [Lente:] Feeling? [Martin:] Yeah feeling. Now those terms are a bit peculiar. You always get trouble with them in psychological tests, cos you either use terms which nobody knows what they mean, or you use terms which people have meanings for and that's not what you actually mean by them. And feeling doesn't refer to emotion as such. This dimension is about erm how you prefer to make decisions. You've perceived something you've now got to decide what you're going to do or whether you're going to do anything. And the difference between the two is in terms of the material you prefer to work with. And the er it's all rational, so it's what sort of material do you prefer to exercise your rationality on. And the thinking people prefer to use impersonal objective material. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Whereas the feeling people prefer subjective personal [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] material. So you've go got a situation where if somebody wants to change something they're actually, you know maybe it's something you do in a job or something like this, and somebody says we, we really ought to change this. Or it might be something sort of domestic like maybe you go shopping every same day every week or something. Erm and somebody says well you, you know, you should change that. Erm then the thinking person's sort of preferred response is to erm seek a tight definition of what the change actually is. Erm so they'd wanna know well you know if it's a shopping change then erm, do you want me to change the day? Do you want me to change what I buy, do you want me to change the time I do it? Do you want me to change the place I go to? What exactly is it that [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you're, you're, you're saying that I've got to do? Erm and how'll that effect what went on before. It may be there's some sort of sequence to these, this activity. Erm and how does it effect what comes after? So it's a very logical impersonal sort of approach. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Okay? Now the feeling person on the other hand faced with this sort of suggestion would immediately start saying, well erm why are we going to do this? Er who for whom is it a benefit? Or who sees meaning in this change? For whom is it of value? Is it going to benefit the shop keeper? Me the, the customer? Or you, some of the other people maybe on whose behalf I buy things? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Or, you know, who, who is going to benefit from it? And how are the people in it? So, so really you're looking at the values in it you see [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] which are essentially subjective and also the people, how are the people who are affected by this, actually going to feel about it? You know, are they actually going to erm er see it as a positive er step? Or are they gonna see it as negative and disruptive? And maybe some people will see one way and some people see it another way. But er er concentrating on the personal, the subjective. [Lente:] Mm. Yeah. [Martin:] Do you do you get an idea? [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Okay stick, stick something down there. Right. Good. And the, now last one is judging, on the left... and perceiving on the right. And this is really about your erm your lifestyle, your pre preferred lifestyle. How much planning you actually like to have in your life. Now the erm judging people want everything to be, well they prefer to have everything cut and dried, sorted out, closed off, decided. They don't like ambiguity or loose ends. At all. The perceiving people on the other hand, want to be flexible, spontaneous, and responsive. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So if, if they, if everything's planned out, it's a real straitjacket for them. And they don't like it. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm now if you think of organizing a party, is quite a useful example of this. Now judging people don't like loose ends, and get worried if things are not being organized. Okay. So usually they do the organizing. Er the perceiving people don't, it doesn't worry them very much, they'll do it all at the last minute and get it sorted out somehow. Erm so if you've got a judging person and they're having a party, then they will, they will organize it a fortnight in advance. And they will erm work out the guest list in a balanced way, according to whatever they want to happen. And erm er they will s think about whether they've got enough, be enough room for the number of people. Whether they've got enough chairs. Where the drink's coming from, how much it's gonna be. Same thing for the food. If there are gonna be any activities then if you got a really extreme judging person, on the day, there'll be, you know, sharpened pencils, and sheets of paper, and rules for whatever games are going to be paid. Now the perceiving person on the other hand, would erm say, about midday, well I think I'll have a party tonight shall we? [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Erm, how are you gonna get everybody there? Well we'll see whose around, and tell them, and they can invite a few of their friends, and we'll see how it goes. What about the drink? Oh tell everybody to bring a bottle. [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Er what are we actually gonna do? Well we'll see. I mean when people come, see who knows any good games, and they can organize them. You know. Er so it's all, all frightfully open-ended, and flexible and so on and [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] quite different. And, and, and the judging person invests a lot of effort in the actual organization. And they get actually pretty upset if only half the people come. Because you know, there's all this stuff ready and so on. Or if twice as many people come, they get upset too, because they haven't got enough. Whereas the perceiving person is much mm less phased by this and says, oh well there are lots of people, that's nice. I don't know half of these people. I've lots of new people I can meet. Or erm if only half the people come, well that's fine we can have a much more sort of intimate evening, and erm actually there'll be lots of food [LAUGHTER] for everybody won't there? You know. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So they're much more, more flexible about [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] things. And, and, the judging people, their ideal event is one which goes exactly to plan. Whereas for the perceiving people, that's probably pretty boring. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Okay? [Lente:] Yeah. I can work [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Oh pretty, pretty far down that track. Okay. Right. Let's have a look. Erm now you get erm a letter for each of the preferences. That's the way erm they do it. And you can't have I. It's usually the, the first letter but [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you can't have I, because I for introvert [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] so it's N for intuitive. N, P for perceive. Right. Now we'll have a look at the erm the work situations one. You may remember, you, you can see what's going on now. That's extrovert, sensing, thinking and judging, [Lente:] Yes. [Martin:] and so on you see. An and I simply add the ticks and see which comes out. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] And it comes out the same. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] So that's fairly straightforward. Erm this is not very accurate. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And it's not a fine discriminator. Erm but in fact certainly those three you've got a very clear you know [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] sort of six difference is not much on the other side [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] anything on that. Now this one is a bit closer. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm but it's still, still reasonably clear and then we've got this which is erm it's all er constructed so that there's a weighted score [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] you see so you actually get that. Er and that's the same again so we haven't got any problems I don't think about the fit. [Lente:] That's from the questionnaire? [Martin:] Yes it is. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And in fact it's interesting that the erm the extrovert is actually quite high [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] on that. Peop people say that, in fact all your scores are quite high while P is the, actually that's rather, rather [Lente:] That's yeah [Martin:] different from that isn't it? And those are the same [Lente:] Well I think it... yeah because when I was filling in th [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] I, I mean there were a lot of questions like you know does [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] the idea of making [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] a list for things [Martin:] Oh yes. [Lente:] appeal to you. Those sorts of questions. And it doesn't appeal to me but I know that I should do it. And I, I know that I'm forced to do it. An and s s so sometimes I think my sense of obligation [Martin:] Yes ah. [Lente:] carries me so. But whereas when you were talking about it then I mean when I think about it [Martin:] It's quite obvious that's what you're most comfortable doing. [Lente:] I resist it. But yeah. [Martin:] Yes. Well you see what happens is that, erm you, you may have a preference but you learn that you've got to use this other behaviour [Lente:] Mm. Yeah. [Martin:] an and so you do. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] You know. But that doesn't alter th the fact that your preference is the other way. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] And in fact it's quite interesting sort of analysis this because erm I, I actually think that the erm the best er... well it helps you if you know where your preference is, because if, if then you're behaving in the other area then you know that that's not re your preference [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] and therefore if it's a bit difficult. Well you know it's a bit difficult and you know why it's difficult [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] but you can do it because you know you can go back home as it were in to the other area. Whereas if you think well you know this is, I'm doing this but I don't know whether this is me and I don't feel very comfortable with it and all that [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] it, it's actually much more difficult to do it. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm so in a way knowing your preference, doesn't mean that you can't do this. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Or that you don't. Er and perhaps er you know you can have a role where maybe you've gotta make decisions and alright you do it. You know. Erm but it makes it easier in some [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] ways. Erm and, and it sort of explains to you what's happening. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Which, which can be quite, quite useful. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm.... Okay. So I'll give you the, the, the description. Erm. [Lente:] Is that quite a high score there? I mean [Martin:] Oh yes. [Lente:] some of them are quite definitely in one. [Martin:] Well the thing is, the interesting thing about this is of course is what we're actually dealing with is not erm... well in a sense er not, not erm your actual preference, which according to the erm theory is unchangeable. You [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] know it's, it's sort of in you. Sort of genetically inherited. Erm but whether it actually erm is realized in practical behaviour [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] is another matter. Just like the sort of nature nurture argument [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] in biology. You know you might have a gene which says well you'll grow to be six foot, but if you're not fed properly [LAUGHTER] [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] then it won't happen. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So and it's the same thing with the preferences. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So in fact a high score is, is quite good because it means that you recognize what your preferences actually are. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know. So it doesn't mean, you know, a higher score on perceiving doesn't mean that you er necessarily very seldom er exhibit judging behaviour. You might exhibit quite a lot of judging behaviour, but it feels peculiar to you an and you know it's an effort. And so you're quite clear that your, your preference is perceiving. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] It doesn't actually mean necessarily erm how you behave. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] If you see what I mean. Cos Jung had this idea that the whole... the whole of life was a journey towards the discovery of what he called the real self. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Now that's a bit of an elusive concept really but none the less I think people have er a sort of idea that there is a real them [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] somewhere, and that this probably gets pulled about [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] by relationships, by external events, by roles which they take on. And erm therefore it's quite a real thing to a lot of people. And what the, this preference thing is after, is describing the real self. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] There's also er I mean I think there are, well there are probably lots of selves but, but erm er there's the real self. The sort of inner self if you like erm although that's expressed in, in behaviour quite often. And then there is how you behave, which may not be the same thing as the real self. And then there's an idealized self. The sort of [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] person you might like to be but actually unfortunately aren't. You know. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And... the real self's probably somewhere between the behaving self and the idealized [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] self, you know. Erm well let me find this, fish this out for you and er you can er have a look at this and see what you think. Okay. [Lente:] Thanks. [Martin:] Read that and see whether you think it's er accurate or which bits of it click and which bits of it don't.... [Lente:] Mm. Most, most of it's true. [Martin:] Yeah. Okay. Well let me explain the erm... oh that's, that's a description on the back. Can I have that back for a minute and I'll just explain one of the erm... a bit more of the structure of it. E N F P. Now the, the theory erm is that there are four mental functions in the middle here. And the extrovert and introvert, and judging and perceiving are sort of orientations. So if you imagine that erm you're a motor vehicle alright? And the E I and the J and the P are if you like sort of part of the bodywork which decides whether you're a sports car or a heavy goods [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] vehicle or whatever. But the engine that actually drives you [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] is these four mental faculties okay? Erm or mental functions. Now one of these is dominant okay? And that's, in your case, that's that one. And then the other one you then have an auxiliary or second one. And those are the two preferences [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] okay? And then the other two erm, less preferred areas, erm the least preferred is opposite the erm number one, the most preferred, and the third one is opposite the second one. Now thi this has some implications for decision making. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] If, if you actually,an and a career decision is one type of decision. Erm if, if you want a good decision you've gotta use all four mental functions. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] But the preference theory suggests that erm you will use them in order of preference. So er if you've got a er a problem, say the career, what are you going to do with yourself? Well the first thing you do is start thinking of lots of possibilities you see. And erm you get all these possibilities erm set out, and then you use your feeling judgement to er cut them down. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Er you say, well you know alright there are all these things I could do but erm er what, where do I think I re really want to work? I mean where would it be worthwhile for me to work? You know. What do I... what is so important to me that I want to spend all this time on it? You know, how does this fit with my value system? So you'd use [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] your value system to actually erm fine down the number of possibilities. Now the danger is for N F people that they don't use the S and the T. And according to the theory you would then, after you'd used the N and the F you'd then start to use the T which is the sort of logical thing. You'd say well what am I trained to do? What sort of background have I got? What skills have I got? Do I need training to do this? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And then the S, the senses, the last [Lente:] [cough] [Martin:] erm is really about erm well are there any jobs in this? An and do people actually get paid to do it? And what sort of activities do they actually engage in? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] What is the nature of the experience of somebody who actually does this? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] And if N Fs are not careful, they've got this terrific sort of value laden possibilities idea [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] which is a bit vague and erm you know er an and they never get to well what are the skills? And where are the jobs? And, and what actually do you do day to day? I mean it may, may fit your values and it may have lots of possibilities but what are actually gonna be doing and will you actually be capable of it or, or enjoy it or whatever. So you need all four an and it's not a criticism to start with the N and the F. That's how you are and that's how you have to start. I mean it's no good you starting on the S and the T. You'd get bored with it before you'd, you know,so but you need to bring the others in. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] That's, that's the thing. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] So erm you know that's th what I'm really talking about is more a question of the process of erm career choice, than it is saying what you should do. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm the there is something which I suppose can be said about what you should do, if you're an N F and a, and a,an a dominant intuitive. By the way this tells you what your, you see your dominant is intuition and then with feeling. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm now er if intuition is the dominant thing and you're an extrovert, then you erm really need situations er where you can change things. Where you can actually erm make things change. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm and if you're a er an intuitive feeling person, then really it's crucial that your value system is accommodated in what you do. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know that makes a huge difference really. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Erm so that's very important. Erm hmm yeah, yeah. Well that's about it I think. Erm what are you actually thinking about doing anyway? [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Erm or haven't you got that far yet? [Lente:] [LAUGHTER] Well I think I've got a bit stuck on the N and the F actually []. [Martin:] I see. So we want some S and T. [Lente:] We do yeah. No... well I've just had erm an interview and erm... really just exploring the things that I myself thought of trying [Martin:] Yeah. [Lente:] Probably erm I think I'll, I'll do on the [Martin:] Oh yeah. Yeah mm mm. [Lente:] And do that for a while as well as some, some voluntary work. That what I was thinking of doing for next year. It's really, I mean next year I was sort of quite co I'm quite committed to not having a year off so much as just exploring things and that's what [Martin:] Right. [Lente:] what erm Heather? [Martin:] Yes Heather yeah. [Lente:] Yes that's what she said. She said you jus [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] cos I haven't, like she perceived that I was very kind of... lost really. And you know didn't know enough about the different areas of work that I was interested in. And she said oh the best thing to do is just sort of travel for a bit an [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] not travel aimlessly, but travel with a purpose. [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] An and find out as much as possible an and then erm try and get on to something for the year after. For nineteen ninety. [Martin:] Yes well you'll need to do some S and T you see, erm before you go off on your travels. [Lente:] That's it. [Martin:] Other otherwise you really won't know what you're coming back to so. [Lente:] Well exactly. No I couldn't face that I don't think. I've got to do something. [Martin:] Right. [Lente:] Well that's what I'm, I'm doing here and [Martin:] Yes. Trying to work, work [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] things out. Yes. [Lente:] Cos it, it's true that I resist it. You know I mean I didn't want to come today. I resist [Martin:] No no. [Lente:] the sort of process. [Martin:] Yes, yes. [Lente:] You know I just think that I should be able to get a job just like that and [Martin:] Yes yes. Well of course erm sometimes you can. [LAUGHTER] But, but it is, it is dangerous because of course maybe it doesn't work. Erm and especially in the current climate you see it's also erm interesting because of course this, this, this sort of theory depends who's interviewing you. I i if, if, if they're erm an intuitive feeling person, then they may think that's okay. Er but if they're a sensing thinking person they will find it almost totally incomprehensible, that you've been so lax as not to have actually worked out in detail erm you know what their job is? And erm why you want it? And why you, why it fits? You know why they should employ you given you know what are your skills [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] and what are your this and what are your that. An and really even the N F recruiters will er want some of that. [Lente:] Well I think for them to be in, in management, top management positions a lot of them they'd have to be pretty sensing and thinking before... well I do I mean I think there's [Martin:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Lente:] room for my sort of personality in most careers, but to some extent it's got to be you know balanced and [Martin:] Yes you've, you've got to do the lot you see. So, so you need to get [Lente:] [cough] [Martin:] on to the S T bit. I mean have you done the erm any of these other things? I mean you've done the personality thing. Er if you've seen, have you seen this wherever it is. Erm oh it's over there. The erm planning your future thing or not? No, no, no. Well it doesn't matter anyway. [Lente:] Erm. [Martin:] This thing?... [Lente:] Oh yes. I've got that. [Martin:] You've got that? [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You've got that, you've got that. Right, you've got that. [Lente:] Yeah. Now I'm, I am trying to work through it methodically actually. [Martin:] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well erm [Lente:] This has been quite helpful though. I do feel that [Martin:] Cos what you've done then is that. [cough] [Lente:] Mm. I've done the, I'm just in the middle of the skills one. [Martin:] Oh are you? Yes oh jolly good. Yes. [Lente:] Yes. That's quite interesting. [Martin:] Well it is because that actually does, with the pie chart, lead you into sort of chunks of work area [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] which you know then you can explore a bit. [Lente:] What comes across in both my interests and any skills which isn't really reconcilable with this I don't think is that erm I've got sort of, because of, I think it's cos of my academic experience cos I did an arts degree with a lot of research and stuff, is that I, I like researching, data collecting, processing information. Which isn't really I mean I don't think [Martin:] Not an N Fs thing. [Lente:] Not really no. [Martin:] No it isn't. Erm well you have to sort of decide I suppose erm... which way you wanna go. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know. Although you see erm as we've been suggesting any project requires that. You know you, you, you need to be doing some of that. It, it's just a question of I suppose whether you do it or you get other people to [LAUGHTER] do it or [] or what. You know but, but probably to start with whatever you're gonna have to do you're gonna have to do. And I think the S and T thing is, is erm it's very good to have developed skills in those areas. Wher it's a question of where you sort of harness them really though isn't it? [Lente:] Well it's erm I mean Helen suggested [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] librarianship an and it was [Martin:] Mm. [Lente:] something which, that interested me but I do think I'll find it boring or something. [Martin:] Yes well no this wouldn't necessarily support that. Erm it, it would depend I suppose erm well the N F people they want to be able to change things you see. You can't change things much in a library. [Lente:] No. [Martin:] Erm er if they're, if they're introverts, then it's alright changing things just by changing people's perception. So erm you know you, you, you I mean I'm I N F J and so it's alright for me to think I've changed your thinking. Whether you actually do anything about it is up to you you know [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] so I, I mean I suppose in a sense it would be good if you did actually change something but that's not entirely necessary for me. If, if, if it's given you a slightly different slant on it, and you're thinking has changed. In some way. Then that's okay for me. Now if I was an extrovert, it wouldn't actually be enough. I, I, I would want actually to see real results you see from erm the change. That you had actually shifted from this to that, and you went off and did whatever it was. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You know. I th I think you probably need a bit more er in terms of, of, of, of results. Erm although you see you could get that in librarianship. If erm you, you might erm in time er er you know become er the, the librarian or something. Well then you're, you're managing the thing, and you're actually responsible for trying to work out which way it's going. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] You see. So in a sense that might come later on. So you might find that er a and in, in some ways it's rather interesting, because your S and T skills might get you the job. In a sense, you know, you wouldn't get it without them. Erm but what's needed for later on, might be the N and the F. Because erm you know you can't manage people without some consideration for er for their, their views and how things affect them and so on. Erm and you need to look at the big picture. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] Yeah it's no good getting bogged down in the detail. So I suppose whatever area you went into, erm you might find it a bit frustrating to start with, because you weren't looking at the big picture. [Lente:] Well I think that, that my problem is, you know like, Cos I did do the P G C S [Martin:] Oh of course you did. You came and talked to me [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] about it then didn't you once? [Lente:] And that was my problem with it was that I was in much in terms of being able to go into the classroom an and talk to the kids and have a really good relationship with the teachers and things. And I discovered that [Martin:] And it didn't work out. [Lente:] to actually create the right learning environment for them, there were a thousand little details that I had to attend to, like had I planned my lesson right, was I progressing in the right way round the classroom, had I remembered to chase up certain people's homework, and stuff. And that I find incredibly difficult. You know it was a real effort for me to remember all those things. Because I am so kind of, you know I've got ideas coming in and out of my head all the time. But you know I still think that I'm drawn towards that sort of teaching, performing that kind of role erm and that wouldn't be fulfilled by librarianship at all. [Martin:] No. [Lente:] But I don't think it would do me any harm to develop some more organizational skills because mos most jobs require them. [Martin:] Yes. [Lente:] You know I don't think you can get by without them really. You know I mean you have to have time management skills to have a reasonably [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] Well you do don't you? Yes [] [Lente:] successful life, don't you? I mean it's no use being... [Martin:] Yes, that's right, that's right. [Lente:] I mean as I said when I was filling in the questionnaire I was thinking well this, really this is my preference and you know I'd much rather be in a job that allowed me some flexibility. You know rather than down to the line planning for every single moment of the day. But having said that I can't see a job where you can just kind of swan in and you know and think about a million different things in one day or whatever. So you know I mean I su I suppose a lo the questionnaire seemed to concentrate very much on how you were outside work. And I mean I su everyone has to resign themselves I think to some extent but the fact that they are playing a role within their work situation. [Martin:] Right. [Lente:] And they can't allow their personality free expression. I mean that's what another thing I found very hard about teaching. And the teachers commented on it. They said that I was too much of myself. You know I had to assume this more detached role. From the kids. [Martin:] Yeah. Yeah. Well it, it, teaching has a lot of er er problems with that really because it's, it's, it's playing a role. I mean it's acting, teaching more or less. [Lente:] Yeah. [Martin:] And you know and you, you, you got to have, gotta get, you know, you have to get cross with them if they misbehave or whatever because otherwise there isn't any order in the place. [Lente:] Mm. [Martin:] An an and you know those sorts of things have to go on. Erm I'm just trying to think what other sorts of jobs you might be interested in. [Lente:] I think anything with writing. I mean that's come up again and again. Journalism and that kind of thing. [Martin:] Yes.... Yeah yeah.... But there's a lot of S T in journalism isn't there? Quite a lot of S. You've gotta do your, you know, go out and sit in the county court and wait for something exciting to happen [Lente:] Well especially again when you're, when you're training. [Martin:] Well that's the thing you see I think you're, you're, you know [LAUGHTER] that's gonna be the problem [] that you're, you're

[speaker001:] .... [speaker002:] Hello, how are you? [speaker003:] ... what can I do for this lady today? [speaker002:] Well... the insurance line's due today. [speaker003:] You due a line today? [speaker002:] Yeah.... Time flies doesn't it? [speaker003:] Oh. Time fairly belts in doesn't it? [speaker002:] Mm.... [speaker003:] Mm, it's the thirteenth of.... There we are, scallywag. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] That'll keep you right with that. Now [speaker002:] Now, while I'm here. I've had a bit of trouble with this ear again, it's been kind of sore on and off, and down my neck. [speaker003:] you been doing to yourself now? [speaker002:] Aye, it's been. [speaker003:] Coming to bits. [speaker002:] falling to bits now. [speaker003:] Coming to bits. Let's have a look at you. [speaker002:] married ten years ago,. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] That's a story, that. [speaker002:] Lot of wax in it, right enough. I think probably some trouble with that. [speaker003:] . It's not the wax that's doing it. You're full of catarrh. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] I've really been feeling very very low. [speaker003:] Well, let's get [speaker002:] Exceptionally tired.... Feeling dizzy, taking dizzy spells and my nerves are frazzled. And my mother died not long before Christmas, and I thought I was doing fine. I was great over Christmas. About four or five weeks ago, just... completely collapsed. My nervous system shot to pieces. [speaker003:] Oh right. [speaker002:] Bubbling, crying,... [speaker003:] Let's turn you into a human being. [speaker002:] Oh. I thought I was doing well, I thought this is marvellous, here's me manag managing to get through Christmas.... [speaker003:] It's amazing [speaker002:] You know really do you know, as if I think I blanked out. I really think I er [speaker003:] Ah, but [speaker002:] I subconsciously blanked out. [speaker003:] That's what you do when you know you've got to get through something like Christmas. [speaker002:] You think so? [speaker003:] Yeah. Oh aye. Oh aye. [speaker002:] Oh, it's a nightmare.... I do, I think that's really finished me off.... It sounds terrible, so depressing, but I really feel, I can't get a spark in me. I feel I'm... I don't even want to talk to people. [speaker003:] Just, just, just go home and go to bed. [speaker002:] Aha. And even if I go to bed I can't sleep. [speaker003:] Aye. That's right. [speaker002:] And I don't want to talk to people. I feel so anti-social all of a sudden. [speaker003:] Right, let's get you going. Let's get you turned into a human being. [speaker002:] Get me something to get me Oh, I know, it's dreadful. My son's getting married in June and everything, and I [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker002:] feel this way in June. [speaker003:] Oh you'll be, be as right as rain by that time. [speaker002:] You think so? [speaker003:] Yes. Oh aye. We'll have you back to your normal self. [speaker002:] I mean, anybody says boo to me, I'm bubbling. [speaker003:] Aye. That's right. Oh well, we'll stop all that. [speaker002:] I've not been bad for a long long time. [speaker003:] We'll stop [speaker002:] I'm usually not too bad at keeping a grip on myself. Sometimes too good. [speaker003:] Well, [speaker002:] Keeping thing to myself I think that's [speaker003:] we'll, we'll get you turned into a human being without any problem at all. [speaker002:] Okey-doke. [speaker003:] But er we'll see you in four weeks. See how you're doing. [speaker002:] Four weeks? [speaker003:] Four weeks. Yeah. [speaker002:] You'll have to give me ano [speaker003:] And your I s your line won't be due, but I t [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] I want to see that you're coming along alright. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] Ready for this wedding. Okay. [speaker002:] Okay then.. [speaker003:] Och away. [speaker002:] it's terrible that, and I thought I'll be looking forward, this is the last one you see, this is my youngest. [speaker003:] Peace and quiet after that. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker003:] For a for a wee while. [speaker002:] For a wee while, yes. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] For a a wee while []. [speaker002:] Right, [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] is it four weeks then I'll come back and see you? [speaker003:] See you in four weeks, yes please. [speaker002:] Right, thanks a lot doctor. Bye. [speaker003:] Right, bye now.

[John:] Hello doctor. [speaker002:] Hello. Well Mr, what can I do for you today? [John:] Er, it's a wee problem I've had for a... say about a year now. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] It's er my face. And my skin. I seem to get an awful lot of, it's like [speaker002:] Aha. [John:] dry flaky skin. [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] And I get it on my forehead, down here [speaker002:] I can see [John:] and under my chin. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] And I've tried as many different creams. [speaker002:] What've they been? [John:] Oh, I've, I've got them at the chemist, that E forty five, [speaker002:] Mm. Oh aye. [John:] all different stuff, it's no good. [speaker002:] No. [John:] And it's starting to get, you know, annoy me. [speaker002:] Right, let's get it cleared for you. [John:] Good. I think I left it too long. [speaker002:] No no. [John:] I should have seen you afore now. [speaker002:] No. Mm. [John:] What kind of things causes that, you know? [speaker002:] You'll need to watch your soap, [John:] Aha. [speaker002:] shampoo, [John:] Right. [speaker002:] ... er conditioner [John:] Right. [speaker002:] any of these things that you use on your hair, [John:] Aha. [speaker002:] that can run down your face. [John:] your face. Aha. [speaker002:] Cos these are the things that cause. [John:] Yeah I thought it was soap. [speaker002:] Mhm. [John:] And I started see now they've brought out that Dove, the moisturizer, rubbish. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Crap. Right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Good. I've been buying bars and bars of that see. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No, it's er [] [John:] Rubbish. I said maybe that'll sort it. [speaker002:] Aye. Anything like that at all, anything... Er soap powder even, affects some folk. [John:] Oh right. Aha. [speaker002:] Er... liquid soaps are the same. Er shampoos. [John:] Shower gels and things like that? I, I use [speaker002:] All these things, are all, all exactly the same. [John:] See. So what, what would you recommend that? [speaker002:] We ba Johnson's Baby Shampoo. [John:] Aha. [speaker002:] End of story. [John:] That's it? [speaker002:] That's for the whole lot. [John:] For that that does the, the business? [speaker002:] The lot, yeah. [John:] That's fine then. [speaker002:] Yeah. Because it's got the, it's the one with the fewest er detergents, [John:] Aye. [speaker002:] and all of this, this gunge they put in. [John:] That's right aye. [speaker002:] It's the safest one of the lot. That, or the next best is er Simple Soap shampoo. [John:] Aye, that's right, aye. [speaker002:] These two are the best. [John:] That's the best to use? [speaker002:] They're the safest to use. [John:] That's good that's fine. [speaker002:] And if you do that, [John:] It should clear up. [speaker002:] and you use this stuff for about a month... use this stuff is quite soft. [John:] Aha. [speaker002:] You don't need a lot of it,. It's almost... almost as soft as this. This is highly perfumed stuff. [John:] Aha. [speaker002:] Er that that isn't. This is highly perfumed, but you really... See that? [John:] some like that, and just rub it in. [speaker002:] Aye. Just like that. See a wee drop like that'll cover that, [John:] That's right. [speaker002:] right up to there. You know, just a spot of that covers [John:] Aye you're, aye you're not going to use a lot. [speaker002:] Aye, you won't, you won't need a lot.... Just a wee drop like that. [John:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er that stuff stinks too [John:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But er but there's the, the cream you get from the chemist John, er won't won't be like that. And [John:] . I, I've tubes of that E forty five, [speaker002:] Aye. [John:] and I plastered it, [speaker002:] Aye. No. [John:] and it's nothing. [speaker002:] No. You, if you get that stuff that'll... keep doing the trick for you. [John:] soaps. [speaker002:] Aye, just watch the kind of soap you use, [John:] Aha. [speaker002:] and watch your shampoos. [John:] That's smashing. [speaker002:] As I say, the, the best... is Johnson's Baby [John:] Aye. [speaker002:] or Simple Soap shampoo. [John:] There're no additives? [speaker002:] There're no additives in them at all. [John:] That's right. Right. [speaker002:] A anything that... smells like [John:] Aye pongs. Aye. [speaker002:] Forget it. [John:] Forget it. Aye. [speaker002:] Okay. Anything that's got even the slightest [John:] Aye. [speaker002:] thing like that, forget it. [John:] That's fine then. [speaker002:] So, you're still at? [John:] That's still the same, aye. [speaker002:] [whispering] Still on []. [John:] Well that's smashing, Doctor. [speaker002:] There you are, and that'll keep that right John. [John:] That's lovely. Right, thanks Doctor. [speaker002:] Okay look after yourself now. [John:] Same with you. [speaker002:] Right. [John:] See you later. [speaker002:] Cheerio now. [John:] Bye bye.

[speaker001:] Yeah, yeah.... Hello. Well now, what can we do for this lady? [Isobel:] Well, erm it's negatives so... X-rays my leg.... [speaker001:] Right. Oh.... X-rays.... Now then.... Back this morning.... okay.... Right, there's no arthritis that's fine. But that doesn't mean that you, you know, you won't have pain [Isobel:] No. [speaker001:] er because there's no arthritis. [Isobel:] Aha. [speaker001:] And you still get pains in your joints even though you don't have arthritis.... Er... right. [Isobel:] But what I was thinking, maybe I'd be better going back to work and seeing how [speaker001:] Mhm. [Isobel:] You know? [speaker001:] Yeah, er I think so. The, the one thing about arthritis that... y you're better if you can keep going. Rather than because if you settle, if you, you let the, the joints settle, instead of being nice and smooth, they get all rough... and the other bones knit in [Isobel:] Mm. [speaker001:] with them. [Isobel:] It was just that pain I was getting. It, it seemed, seemed to have disappeared so I thought maybe that have my work, maybe [speaker001:] Yeah, that would probably be a good thing. [Isobel:] er more help than anything you know. [speaker001:] Now, the wee pink tablets, did, when you started them, did they make a difference? [Isobel:] Well, I was actually feeling very sleepy with them. [speaker001:] You felt sleepy with them? [Isobel:] Aha. [speaker001:] Right. Well, what, what [Isobel:] But I've not been taking them for the last week. [speaker001:] Well, keep what you've got in the house, [Isobel:] Aha. [speaker001:] and if you feel... that the pains are bad during the night, take them at [Isobel:] Take them. [speaker001:] bedtime. [Isobel:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right? Take, keep them round the house, [Isobel:] Mhm. [speaker001:] if you need them, take them at bedtime. But er, I'm glad to say the er X-rays are alright. [Isobel:] Aye, well, I was glad myself. [speaker001:] Oh aye. [Isobel:] Could you date it that I start back Monday, doctor, if you don't mind? [speaker001:] Next Monday? [Isobel:] Er aye well I'm. [speaker001:] Monday that'll be the eighteenth, nineteenth now? Er nineteen... four,... ninety three.... Er... so that gives you another five or ten years before the dry rot sets in. [Isobel:] I hope so. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh that's good. Oh that's [Isobel:] I sometimes think it's nature's wear and tear. [speaker001:] Ah!... You've got years and years and years to catch up yet. [Isobel:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Years and years and years. [Isobel:] Oh well, I don't suppose I damage if. [speaker001:] Yeah, you've a lot of... a lot of capers still to get up to [Isobel:] Mm. [speaker001:] There we are, that'll keep you right with these folks. [Isobel:] It's just they like you to, to slip in before you actually start to. That means when I go in they know I'm s coming in you know? It kind of keeps them. [speaker001:] Yes, oh aye, that's, that's right. Keeps them keeps them off your back. [Isobel:] And it [speaker001:] Keeps them off your back. Right, Isobel. [Isobel:] Right doctor, thanks very much. Cheerio. [speaker001:] Okay, cheerio now.

[Agnes:] Ah. I wish I [speaker002:] Hello! [Agnes:] I wish I could do that. [speaker002:] Oh.... Well, what can I do for you today, Agnes? [Agnes:] I'll tell you. I don't know if it's old age or not, oh, it's getting worse.... I've been, I can't even fasten my bra at the back. [speaker002:] Bad as that? [Agnes:] That's.... Actually I've got, I've got er Oruval. And I take that for that sciatica. [speaker002:] Mhm. Mm. [Agnes:] Is that good for that? No? [speaker002:] No. [Agnes:] See I didn't, I, I, and he gave me, I was here, oh I don't know if it was about a fortnight ago I was here. Anyway I wasn't well. It [speaker002:] Mhm. [Agnes:] was my ear. Was it you I s no it wasn't you I seen about my ear, was it? [speaker002:] Fortnight ago? [Agnes:] See I no, a fortnight, how long ago was it? [speaker002:] I saw you about nearly five weeks ago. In fact more than that. [Agnes:] No. No it was after that. It was after that I seen somebody. It was Doctor, was it Doctor? [speaker002:] . Aye. [Agnes:] I just took whoever I could, cos I said I'll take er and it was Doctor [speaker002:] Right. [Agnes:] and er it was my ear. [speaker002:] Aha. [Agnes:] And, and this, I j er I just wasn't well. I said [speaker002:] Right. [Agnes:] I don't know. Do you think it's the change of life that's me? [speaker002:] No! [Agnes:] Because I just don't keep well. [speaker002:] Er [Agnes:] And I'm taking right. And they're coming... I don't think I'm taking for a couple of months, and then I take them every fortnight. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Agnes:] And they're kind of lasting. If you know what I mean they're la do you think that is? It's going away? [speaker002:] Right. That, that could that could be it disappearing.... [Agnes:] Hopefully it is.... But as I say, I've er but somebody says to me, they've go here I go again, talking about what everybody says they've got. They said they've got that Brufen, for this? This... arm. [speaker002:] N No. No. [Agnes:] Is that not for that either? [speaker002:] No that's, that's all, that's for arthritis. [Agnes:] Is it? [speaker002:] That's a neuralgia. That's a neuralgia [Agnes:] Could it, do you [speaker002:] pain you've got. [Agnes:] Do you think that [speaker002:] Mhm. [Agnes:] do you think it's [speaker002:] Yeah. [Agnes:] a neuralgia pain? [speaker002:] That's a neuralgia pain you've got, that's... Brufen wouldn't make much difference to that Agnes. Still in? [Agnes:] Yeah,.... Er, oh, it's, see actually I wondered if it was a frozen shoulder? I thought that if, you know how sometimes [speaker002:] No no. [Agnes:] you, see when I, I cannae turn, [speaker002:] That's [Agnes:] see when I go I, I cannae [speaker002:] You wouldn't be able to do that if you had a frozen shoulder. [Agnes:] Wouldn't I? [speaker002:] No. [Agnes:] I can, I can actually get it to there, but see when I [speaker002:] Aye, well, if you had a frozen shoulder you wouldn't get it past there. [Agnes:] Well, I can get it past there but I couldn't lift it up. [speaker002:] That's right. [Agnes:] There's no way I can lift it up. [speaker002:] No, that's [Agnes:] Now this one, now, I can go like that. [speaker002:] Mhm. That's right. [Agnes:] You know, this one's all [speaker002:] That's right. [Agnes:] And it seems to be more in this just one place. [speaker002:] Mhm....? [Agnes:] Oh.... [speaker002:] See if I do that? And [Agnes:] Ah! [cry of pain] [speaker002:] Is that the good bit? [Agnes:] Yeah, that's [speaker002:] That's the good bit.... That's, that's where the nerve comes up near the skin. Just down here. [Agnes:] Is it? [speaker002:] And then it goes [Agnes:] Yeah, that [speaker002:] down the front of your shoulder, [Agnes:] See, [speaker002:] right down. [Agnes:] Right well you see I would have thought if you'd have done it there, that would have been, but no, but see when you [speaker002:] That's it. That's it all there. [Agnes:] Right in there? [speaker002:] Right in there.... Now... this is the latest stuff from the... the hospital... for killing the neuralgia. [Agnes:] Is it? [speaker002:] Mm.... Now, no more than three of these in a day, and you must stay on it for at least a month. [Agnes:] Right. [speaker002:] A whole month, Agnes. [Agnes:] Are you giving me a month's supply? [speaker002:] Mhm. Yeah. [Agnes:] Cos, how much, four seventy five now for a prescription, is [speaker002:] Yeah, well [Agnes:] it not? It's [speaker002:] Aye. [Agnes:] it's not so bad when you get one, [speaker002:] [cough] [Agnes:] but see when you get two? Or [speaker002:] Three. [Agnes:] er it's terrible. Cos I had my er line, it's due up [speaker002:] Yeah. [Agnes:] er... on, and I'll tell you another thing I've been taking. Well, the easiest one to show you is there. All over my body. [speaker002:] Spots I see. [Agnes:] See it? I've a bit more. I don't know if I've... one up there? [speaker002:] Yeah. Aye. [Agnes:] Erm and my leg and that, but I don't know if that was through stress. It's not bad. [speaker002:] Aye. [Agnes:] But that's just been coming [speaker002:] Yeah. [Agnes:] out on me lately. [speaker002:] That's right. That's just a stress reaction. [Agnes:] It's see yeah well, did you know my mother died? [speaker002:] No. [Agnes:] Yeah. She died on the thirteenth of March. She was only in that new home fi five weeks. [speaker002:] Right. [Agnes:] Five weeks she was in it. But don't get me wrong, it wasn't a... it wasn't a... er... s tragedy as such when cos it was the [speaker002:] No no. Oh [Agnes:] best thing that could have happened to [speaker002:] Yeah. [Agnes:] my mother. Because she was... [speaker002:] She was never happy. [Agnes:] Ah, that was. You know. [speaker002:] It was... a, a release. [Agnes:] It was a release because she just went down every day. [speaker002:] Yeah. Oh aye. [Agnes:] She went down every day. [speaker002:] Now I want to see you in four weeks again. [Agnes:] Oh you want to see me in four weeks? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Agnes:] How long did you give me my certificate for? [speaker002:] Thirteen weeks. [Agnes:] Thirteen weeks? But er you want to see me in four weeks to see about that? [speaker002:] Thirteen weeks. But I want you to come back in four weeks. Mhm.... I want you back in four weeks. [Agnes:] Well I didn't have to wait too long for you today. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] It's a change. [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] Is it? I know I keep saying to [speaker002:] It's a change. [Agnes:] myself [], you know er cos I'm saying I said, how many's that that's been into that doctor? And a new doctor I was talking to, I says, three went in, I says, [LAUGHTER] Hope they're all going into, doctor []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Agnes:] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker002:] Away and look after yourself. [Agnes:] I think it's, I think it's er I'm just getting old, it doesn't happen. See, I'm used to doing everything myself. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Agnes:] I've always had to do everything. [speaker002:] Aye. [Agnes:] And... wheelbarrow,, you know and see now. I keep saying, You used to your children, but they don't do nothing for you now, don't they [speaker002:] Not much. [Agnes:] not? [speaker002:] I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them nowadays. [Agnes:] So, four weeks? [speaker002:] Right, see you four weeks. [Agnes:] Er right, aye. [speaker002:] Right Agnes. [Agnes:] Right. Thanks [speaker002:] Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Well James, what can I do for you tonight? [Jim:] It's... my knee again. [speaker001:] Your knee? Still giving you trouble Jim? [Jim:] Aye.... [speaker001:] That's a boy, let's have a wee look at it. See how we're doing. Did you get X-rays, Jim? [Jim:] Aye, for and I still didn't, they didn't show anything.... [speaker001:] There's no arthritis or anything? Good. That's good.... No there's no that other thing the inhaler thing. [Jim:] Mm. [speaker001:] No sign of any damage with that. Now then, where, where are you feeling it catching just now? [Jim:] Here and [speaker001:] Still round there. [Jim:] this up here, and, and there's kind of er shooting pains... and [speaker001:] Still a bit puffy down here, isn't it, eh? [whispering] []... That bit doesn't feel so bad. [Jim:] Mm. [speaker001:] Remember there was we though we thought there [Jim:] Aye, a s [speaker001:] was a wee [Jim:] scar. [speaker001:] scar across there. You can still feel a slight... have you been doing your exercises?... No? Right. Well, I think you're at the stage now where we could get you doing your exercises, Jim. It's at, you can feel the slight... in there... [Jim:] Ah. [speaker001:] Just there, you can feel that, feel that, feel it catching. But that's softer than it was before. So that's good.... Now, what we'll need to get you doing, is some exercise to strengthen up the muscle across there. And pull that scar... tight together Jim.... What, what I want you to do is, just with you sitting just now, just lift your leg up like that, just hold it with your two hands. And just... do that.... About twenty times a day.... Now your knee'll be sore, when you start doing it, because you, this muscle has to get strengthened up again.... And let that scar get joined up. But as you keep doing that, every day, it'll get less and less and less painful. And after about a week, there'll be no pain in it, and you'll be... doing it no bother at all. And that muscle'll grow over the top of that scar, and it'll get rid of all that for you Jim. [Jim:] Okay. [speaker001:] Well that's so as you're, you're going to win after all. You're going to win. Er, what about the inhalers now, are you still? [Jim:] Er could I... erm have a prescription for? [speaker001:] Aye, sure.... [Jim:] I'm still on the forty. [speaker001:] The be you still on that?... Do you need them? [Jim:] No, that's just [speaker001:] No, you're all [Jim:] it's just I don't have any Ventolin. [speaker001:] Right.... Now then, if you do these wee exercises Jim and then come back up and see me in... about... f say four weeks. Let's say four weeks. [Jim:] Okay. [speaker001:] And we'll just check that out again, and make sure that that's all got healed over. You're at number two? Yes [whispering] number two [] You haven't gone and left home since I saw you last, no? [Jim:] No. [speaker001:] You're still at?... But that's good, I'm... pleased. [Jim:] That's... Well, that's since January. [speaker001:] Aye. [Jim:] It's been really slow. [speaker001:] Cos yeah, er, it er it does worry you. And er if we can get it to just, well a wee bit of rest, we get to the stage where it er starts to get soft again. It means we can get the muscle to... grow over the top and bury that underneath and let the whole thing get back to normal. [Jim:] Okay. [speaker001:] But just nice gentle exercises. No leaping up and down. [Jim:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Eh? Okay? [Jim:] Yeah. [speaker001:] just do it nice and gently and that'll come back to normal. [Jim:] Right thanks Doctor. [speaker001:] Okay. [Jim:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Right. [Jim:] Bye. [speaker001:] Okay John Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Hello.... pinching.... [Cathy:] Erm, it's about my back today. [speaker001:] Aha. [Cathy:] It's... for a, a couple of weeks there it wasn't too bad, but now I feel as if it's. [speaker001:] What did you do to it? [Cathy:] It doesn't look bruised, mind, but it feels, sore to touch or anything?... I, I really don't know what I've done. I know times I get it, like... maybe just at one side, if I've been sitting in a hard seat [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] at a, a particular wee bit if I've been leaning back, [speaker001:] Aye. [Cathy:] you know, but [speaker001:] But this is all over? [Cathy:] Right.... It's just i i there isn't any bruising. [speaker001:] And there's nothing to see? [Cathy:] You know, I've I've, well I've looked.... The best I can [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] and I cannae see any bruising, but... it feels [speaker001:] It feels all bruised. [Cathy:] as though it's all bruised.... And in [speaker001:] And no and nothing you can think of that started it up? [Cathy:] and it's sore like... nerves. Like [speaker001:] Pins and needles? [Cathy:] you know how if you hit your elbow? [speaker001:] Aha right. [Cathy:] Or er you know into my finger. [speaker001:] Into your fingers. [Cathy:] You know when I, when I go to lift something, or if I use [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] pressing on this finger, [speaker001:] Aye, it feels numb. [Cathy:] right up [speaker001:] Right up the arm. Right. [Cathy:] this arm.... [speaker001:] Right.... Er your hand doesn't get swollen or anything like that Cathy, no? You've not seen anything? [Cathy:] No, I don't think it's been [speaker001:] Nothing at all. [Cathy:] swollen or anything. [speaker001:] Right. [Cathy:] right in into my wrist. [speaker001:] Right through? [Cathy:] Right. [speaker001:] Aye.... What about your elbow? [Cathy:] Aye, up to my elbow. [speaker001:] U u right up to your elbow. [Cathy:] Not so bad at the top. [speaker001:] Mhm. More down at the bottom. [Cathy:] Painful down [speaker001:] Right.... [Cathy:] from my finger up.... [speaker001:] Now,... are you on anything in the way of tablets that could be upsetting your, your system... at all? [Cathy:] I just got two... two bottles the last time I was in, I can't. [speaker001:] Nothing? [Cathy:] And was one of them not for that and my neck? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] That's [speaker001:] Yeah. [Cathy:] still a bit sore. [speaker001:] Still a bit sore? Right. [Cathy:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right. [Cathy:] And an odd time it goes really [speaker001:] Right. [Cathy:] I feel as if it's really deep, [speaker001:] Mhm. [Cathy:] deep, deep. And then it kind of calms down a wee bit. [speaker001:] Then it calms down, right.... There's nothing in that that would cause this problem. Is this a sort of neuralgia [Cathy:] just [speaker001:] Yeah. [Cathy:] you know a kind of painkiller I'm taking. [speaker001:] No, it's... er, no this tingling down to your fingers, that's a different thing Catherine. Erm, right.... [Cathy:] Is it the same thing? [speaker001:] Aye, it's the same thing down your back. Yeah. [Cathy:] Coming down my back maybe, and... [speaker001:] Now the one thing you'll have to watch [cough] excuse me [cough] excuse me, with these tablets, is anything with alcohol in it. It's liable to make you sick [Cathy:] Mhm. [speaker001:] if you mix the two.... And [Cathy:] I've been feeling a wee bit sick. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Cathy:] Apart from just this. [speaker001:] That's right. [Cathy:] Like, well, the wee'un's not too good, she's loaded with the cold and... sore throat, and been a wee bit sick, too. But today [speaker001:] Yeah. [Cathy:] I've been feeling a wee bit [speaker001:] Yeah. I had something to eat earlier on, and I felt awfully... Just [Cathy:] sicky. as if I was going to be sick. [speaker001:] watch your... watch your tummy with this... stuff. It's good, but it's... you know, it'll fight... er with anything, any sort of beer or whisky or any of these things, but it'll also fight with cough bottles. Er and tonic bottles. Because nearly all of them have a very small amount in. So, if you're on anything like that at all, forget it. Leave it off just now Cathy. [Cathy:] And what about the [speaker001:] till I get you sorted. [Cathy:] Tagamet and things? Is that o okay? [speaker001:] That's okay. Tagamet's fine. No problem there. [Cathy:] The inhalers? [speaker001:] Ventolin isn't a problem. Aye, it's only alcohol and things with alcohol in, that you n need to watch Cathy. [Cathy:] And can you give me [speaker001:] Okay? and that [Cathy:] some Tagamet and Ventolin? [speaker001:] Mhm.... There we are now. And that'll put that right for you.... There you are Cathy. [Cathy:] Could you give me a, a line? [speaker001:] [cough] [Cathy:] . Er, I had a, a card to go for an X-ray. For the [speaker001:] Yes. [Cathy:] pain I was having in my side. [speaker001:] Yes. [Cathy:] But I haven't managed to do it yet. [speaker001:] That's okay. That's no problem. [Cathy:] Erm... should I, should I wait till the pain's [speaker001:] First, first time you get a chance. [Cathy:] really really bad or anything before I go? No? Just any time? [speaker001:] No no. No no. Just first time you get a chance, you go over and get them to X-ray it, and they'll see if there's any damage at the back there.... To try and find out what's going on. Turn you into a human being. [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] You're not kidding []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] That's what it feels like [speaker001:] Well [Cathy:] especially with the wee one being [speaker001:] well, [Cathy:] ill, I mean [speaker001:] well [Cathy:] she's up all night,. [speaker001:] Turn you int turn you into a human being. [Cathy:] You cannae be upset with her, because she hasn't. [speaker001:] She can't help it. She can't [cough] Aye well, you look after her, that's the main thing. Keep her right. [Cathy:] Mm. [speaker001:] Turn her into a human being. [Cathy:] And then she can do me. [speaker001:] That's right. [cough] Right, Catherine. Okay now. Cheerio just now. [cough]

[speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Well,, what can we do for you tonight? [speaker002:] Er.... [speaker001:] Must be five pound notes you keep in there. [speaker002:] good and passport. [speaker001:] Oh I see right. [speaker002:] And er [speaker001:] For who? [speaker002:] Patrick. [speaker001:] [whispering] getting these prescriptions for? Patrick []? You're daft. [speaker002:] It was for Patrick. Er,... see give her something the wee'uns, he's got two wee... [speaker001:] Has he been bad to that poor wee, wee'un again? [speaker002:] thingummy, abscesses in his er in his tooth. She cannae take him in to the dentists till she gets rid of them. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] She's a bad woman. You tell her I said it's just pure neglect.... Tell her I said that will you? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And she'll belt you.... Now then... [speaker002:] [cough]... [speaker001:] Now... what age is the wee fellow now? Two and? [speaker002:] He's three. [speaker001:] Is he, is he three now? [speaker002:] Mhm. He's four in December. [speaker001:] Is he? Three and a half already? [speaker002:] Aye.... [speaker001:] You must be getting old. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Now, what about you? [speaker002:] Er... I want me cream. And I want something for my chest.. [speaker001:] Have you not given up smoking yet? [speaker002:] I've been doing well for the last week, but I took this heavy cold, well from Thursday, since I've took this heavy cold I've hardly smoked.... [speaker001:] I'll get you yet, I'll get you yet. [speaker002:] I've hardly smoked.... I've done really well. [speaker001:] Oh now... What? Is it still the? [speaker002:] Yes,.... [cough]... [cough]... [speaker001:] There you go. [speaker002:] Can't you give me something for head? Cos it's splitting, I think it's just the cold. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Dry rot set in.... There you are, and that'll help to turn you into a human being. [speaker002:] I've been helping everybody who's took that flu, and I think I've. [speaker001:] at last at last it's reached you. Away home and look after yourself. Never mind the rest of these puddings. Let them get their own prescriptions.... You're too soft, you and Celia.... Aye you are. Y d [speaker002:] Oh, everybody me. [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] It's always me. [speaker001:] That's right. It's always... tell them to go and... [speaker002:] Ah, when you tell them to do that, especially with, she goes in a with you. [speaker001:] Oh too... too bad, too bad. [speaker002:] She goes in a. [speaker001:] Och, sure you're worried about her. Aren't you? Sure you're worried about her?... Right, okay,, cheerio now. [speaker002:] Cheerio.

[speaker001:] I'm, I'm in before the doctor! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] . Aye. Thought they'd lost you there. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well now, what can I do for you tonight? [speaker001:] Er it's an insurance line doctor. Just to keep me right. It's my thumb.... That's the excuse I've been giving, and [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] that's the one I'm sticking to. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... How're things doing? [speaker001:] Alex has not been too well the last couple of days, you know. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Doctor was in this morning. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Er... but I, as I say, there's nothing that anybody can do really [speaker002:] No, it's [speaker001:] you know? [speaker002:] just a matter of time. [speaker001:] I meant to phone up this morning for an appointment for Doctor, but I forgot all about it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I really did, of course she was... the nurse came in, first it was... the doctor, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] then it was the priest, then it was another nurse, then the priest and she was getting a bit [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] agitated, everybody coming in to see everybody. [speaker002:] She'll be up the pole. [speaker001:] Aye. Agitated, you know. Oh, I wish they'd all bloody leave me alone. say something like that, oh no. [speaker002:] Och aye. Och aye. You must, I mean she [speaker001:] She's no more medicine left. [speaker002:] She's no medicine left? [speaker001:] No, not the stuff that you gave her anyway. [speaker002:] Right.... That's... and she knows, she knows perfectly well what's... what's happening. I mean she's not stupid. Och aye. [speaker001:] Do you really think so Doctor? [speaker002:] She's not stupid. I mean she's lived long enough, she's seen it all. [speaker001:] Aye.. [speaker002:] She's seen it all before. And they, they get very very quickly suspicious when, you know, when the nurse is coming in and the priest's coming in and the doctor's coming in. They're not so daft. We don't, we don't give them much credit [speaker001:] No, well. [speaker002:] but they're not... they're not so stupid. [speaker001:] Well, as soon as the doctor mentioned hospital, she was awfully upset. [speaker002:] Who d who mentioned the hospital? [speaker001:] The doctor. [speaker002:] Did he? [speaker001:] Actually, she had mentioned it herself first. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] She said, er er no, I think it was the doctor actually mentioned hospital. I see you've been to the hospital, or something like that. You know? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] With the records. [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] Oh, I'm not going back, I'm not going back there. After that she was awfully upset. So I mean that day we had to tell a lot of lies, you know, like that. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] No, the doctor just meant that er y you were at the hospital, [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] you've not to go back yet. Oh, just wait till it comes and see what happens. [speaker002:] Aye, just [speaker001:] The doctor said something about a tube in her to stop the, to stop what was it now, the doctor said there's a tube, they put a tube in her... and they don't [speaker002:] Try and ease the swallowing? [speaker001:] Aye, it's something about the jaundice. [speaker002:] And it, it would ease the jaundice as well. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] It's... it won't, it won't er [speaker001:] No, he says it's [speaker002:] it won't stay like that. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] It won't stay like that. What, what they did was they took er... on, on the inside, there's er... there's the liver, in there er just at the end of the stomach. And what they did was they put a tube from here into the next bit of the stomach, that comes round from underneath there, put a tube across there [speaker001:] Ah, right. [speaker002:] so they didn't have to go through this bit [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] because that bit's all... full [speaker001:] Right, right. [speaker002:] you know? So they put a tube across there. So the stuff coming down, goes through there and then it goes into the rest of the tubes, and away through.... But that will last for... a certain length of time, [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] until this grows... down past that bit. Or up over the top of that bit. [speaker001:] Ah, I see. [speaker002:] Or it pushes the tube out of shape. [speaker001:] Aha. Aha. [speaker002:] Sometimes bends the tube round about. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] But... I mean it might take another two weeks, it might take another two months. You can never tell. But [speaker001:] Aye. Right. Aha. Aha. [speaker002:] I mean she'll just gradually, because this bit between here and the stomach is the bit that most of the food gets digested in, [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] she'll not have much of an appetite, because that bit's not working properly, and it's not getting a chance to go through her

[speaker001:] Hello. Well young scallywag, what can I do for you today? [speaker002:] Well, I was at the hospital a month ago and my blood pressure's up a wee bit. So I said that I'd start. [speaker001:] Oh. Oh. [speaker002:] Right, before I got somebody to check. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But er what I was wondering, I've got to water. You know, I'm not... my water.... [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] He said that it was all quite normal really and [speaker001:] Aye,. [speaker002:] Just I've run to the toilet. But I don't know whether it's cold with it during the winter or not I know but [speaker001:] Let's check. [speaker002:] started doing a bit of training maybe, and I've started cutting down eating. [speaker001:] Okay yeah. [speaker002:] And I think I'm overdoing, I tell you what I think. I was lying on my back, I was working my legs up and down a lot, [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] and I don't know whether I've... stretched a wee bit in here.. [speaker001:] Putting the pressure on. [speaker002:] Well this is it. And I know I, one, it, because I felt it one day. [speaker001:] Right.... See what this tells us. See if you've been a bad boy.... [whispering] And down you come [].... Ah, doing alright. fright the white coats must have frightened the life out of you some. [speaker002:] Aye, you'd past couple of see me in, I said it doesn't seem. I wee bit here and I don't know what it is. [speaker001:] They're always [speaker002:] It was, it was a hundred and sixty over ninety or something, er I, what was it now? What's it? [speaker001:] Hundred and s hundred and sixty over seventy five. [speaker002:] But I know that's what it was you know because the wee lassie done it with this special electronic thing [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] and er. Cos I'd lost about half a stone in weight, and I was cut down on chocolate biscuits, and I, what I'd been doing I was... was at my tea, at five o'clock, I was eating another at ten o'clock, I reckon I was overdoing it a bit you know with the... I was trying to cut down a lot [speaker001:] Yeah. Aye. I would [speaker002:] and I'd lost half a stone in weight. [speaker001:] I would think your, your best bet Robert is just... try and keep your weight steady. And don't go hard at the training. I mean your weight, and your pressure there is... is er [speaker002:] Have you got the report back from the hospital a couple [speaker001:] Aye. Aye [speaker002:] of weeks ago aye?? [speaker001:] Twenty fifth yeah twenty fifth of March. [speaker002:] Aye, that's right. almost a year. [speaker001:] Hundred and sixty. Hundred and sixt [speaker002:] It's alright today? [speaker001:] Aye. Great today. [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] No problem.... [speaker002:] That was all that was worrying me. You know I'm saying, maybe there's a wee bit of strain in here. And now see [speaker001:] Aye that's probably. [speaker002:] I'm on my feet? I'm alright when I'm in that position, right? [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] I do but see if I'm sitting down [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] see them guys in the corner, see me sitting in this position? [speaker001:] Sitting [speaker002:] Now I don't know whether it's a wee bit of [speaker001:] Extra weight. [speaker002:] Is that what it is? [speaker001:] You get caught between a weight pushing down, and the seat, the pressure on the seat. [speaker002:] Cos I'm alright when I'm on my feet, I'm hardly bothered having to go for [speaker001:] Yeah. Aye. [speaker002:] It's just this is... I remember on my back, cos I was lifting up you know lifting my legs up. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] And one of these I felt. I don't know er. [speaker001:] Yeah, I would think [speaker002:] That was all what was. [speaker001:] I would think so Robert. But all your blood tests [speaker002:] But he's that Doctor, he says,... er just show him that wee tracer, and he'll know, but [speaker001:] Aye. Aye. [speaker002:] he says all the blood and everything all was all [speaker001:] Every everything's cleared away.... everything's cleared away. [speaker002:] one every four weeks, just for the [speaker001:] S see you every four weeks for the next couple of months, When are you due back to see them? [speaker002:] No, it's er by the way, instead of every year now it's, I've to make it two years. [speaker001:] Every two years? [speaker002:] So I've not to go back [speaker001:] Oh well. [speaker002:] till two years now. [speaker001:] E every month for about round [speaker002:] Well, he's just to keep a record of it right. I'll just get an appointment just for my blood check. that checked anyway. Is it near enough normal that is? [speaker001:] Yes.... One sixty over seventy five. [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] They don't come better than that. [speaker002:] Oh that's a re that's my, maybe that'll make my put my mind at rest a wee bit. [speaker001:] Aye. No, I mean that er [speaker002:] Doing my, my job I notice it you know I'm in this a little bit of pressure on the. [speaker001:] Oh aye. Aye. [speaker002:] back on the tills again. [speaker001:] It's safer. [speaker002:] I'm not joking. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Safer away from it []. You're safer away from it. [speaker002:] see when [speaker001:] I'll [speaker002:] was it last Friday? last Friday.... Cos he's enjoying himself. Eh?... You get a bit of, [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] you know. One boy shouted the doctor, you know?. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And they still support the Airdrie. [speaker001:] Oh dear, aye, he took a terrible [speaker002:] So is this running to the toilet with my water just [speaker001:] Aye, that'll gradually disappear. [speaker002:] I always feel it, it's a lot worse in the winter. [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] I mean I don't know, [speaker001:] Och yes. That's right. I mean. [speaker002:] and that's it the head, and I could feel the chill. [speaker001:] You'll need to get one of these wee hats. [speaker002:] I know.. [speaker001:] Bill Bill 's got a spare one. [speaker002:] Right, thanks a lot. Right, pal, right. [speaker001:] Okay sir, cheerio now.

[speaker001:] Hello! stranger, what can we do for you today?... [speaker002:] Help me. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What's happened?... [speaker002:] I've put on nearly two and a half stone [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] in weight in the last [speaker001:] So I see. [speaker002:] five months. [speaker001:] What've you been doing in the last five months that's put on the weight? [speaker002:] Mhm. And I'm permanently crying.... Help.... [speaker001:] What's happened, has your appetite [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] changed? No? [speaker002:] No.... And when I started putting on weight I and I'm still putting on weight.... [speaker001:] Right.... Are you [speaker002:] I'm actually about... just over ten and a half stone now. [speaker001:] Mhm.... Your hair falling out? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No problems with your hair? It's not getting brittle? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Grey, but not brittle. [speaker001:] Aye. Yeah.... What about your skin, is it still?... [speaker002:] I don't heal as quickly as I used to. [speaker001:] Mhm. Right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] That's a terrible thing to say. [speaker001:] No. No it's, it's not. [speaker002:] I don't understand. [speaker001:] You're not you're not losing a lot of blood anywhere? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] No? No piles, bleeding, or anything like that, no? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Nothing like that, aye? What about... your periods, are they stopped? [speaker002:] No, the curse, it's still there, it's. [speaker001:] You're still bleeding? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Is it a lot heavier [speaker002:] Er [speaker001:] now than it used to be, or is it just about the same? [speaker002:] No, it's it's heavier, but it's a lot more painful... as well. [speaker001:] Right.... Has anybody told you your face was getting very fat? [speaker002:] Just my man. [speaker001:] And you're getting baggy under the eyes. [speaker002:] Am I? [speaker001:] Mhm. N nobody else mentioned it? [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Take your coat off. other tests. You could be starting to be having trouble with your thyroid gland. [speaker002:] Oh.... [cough]... [speaker001:] Er have you noticed that you felt the winter colder this year than usual? [speaker002:] I took the flu this year. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Which... [speaker001:] Unusual. [speaker002:] is unusual, aye.... [speaker001:] When did your man notice that your... you were different? [speaker002:] That my face was getting fat?... About three months ago. [speaker001:] About Christmas time? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Aye []. [speaker001:] Mhm, yeah, it would fit. [speaker002:] But I wasn't eating or anything, I mean [speaker001:] No, wouldn't have changed anything at that time. [speaker002:] No.... And I cut back on my intake, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I'm still going [speaker001:] And you're still going up.... as well. as well. Show us your muscles. [speaker002:] Er, this arm has phlebitis. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Well, I've had phlebitis in it. I'm not very good at giving blood. [speaker001:] So I see. [speaker002:] It doesn't like to come out. [speaker001:] So I see.... What I have to do is find a good bit. [speaker002:] I hope you're good at this Doctor.... [speaker001:] No, I'm not.... Not giving us a drop.... You're mean, aren't you? [speaker002:] Aye, I'm afraid so. The hospital [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] the last time. They got it out the back of my hand. Very painful I know, but that was the last time. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Let's see the back of your hand, let's see if [speaker002:] And I've had. [speaker001:] there's another... another vein sometimes, in here..... It's not everybody that has one there, but you certainly do.... Er... stick your arm in there.... Magic. Right, there you go. That's it. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Stick your finger on there. That's a girl.... All mod cons.... Have you noticed any problems with your urine or anything like that, Ann? [speaker002:] Stronger... but I've not... with anything anything like that. [speaker001:] No problems ah.... Come on. There we go the last wee drop........ Now, I'll have the result of this on... Tuesday er Thursday. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Thursday hmm about twelve Ann.... But the way things look to me, it looks as though your thyroid gland's beginning to slow down.... And this is why you're... whole lot's [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] all beginning to puff up. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And your f your particular just under here. I see the difference in you under there. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And your, your whole face is a bit puffed, but mostly round about there. And that, along with your tiredness all the time, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] that kind of thing. That's very very like what happens with the thyroid.... When that starts to slow down. And if it is, there's no great problem with that, that's very straightforward, we can get that put right for you. Now, don't change your diet. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Right? Don't go buying anything at the chemist to try and lose weight, cos they won't work.... Okay? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] We'll get that sorted out, but we'll check this first to make sure there isn't anything else Ann. But it looks a fairly straightforward thing. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] We'll get you sorted out, turn you into a human being again. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] a zombie. [speaker001:] instead of, instead of walking about like a zombie. [speaker002:] Aye, a heavy [speaker001:] But er [speaker002:] zombie. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And... right, er if you give me a phone about... twelve on Thursday morning, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] we should have that result back, be able to tell you what's happening. Okay? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] We'll keep things right for you. Okay Ann? [speaker002:] . Thanks. [speaker001:] Right. Okay now. [speaker002:] Cheerio. [speaker001:] Cheerio just now.

[speaker001:] Hello [speaker002:] Doctor [speaker001:] Well what can I do for you Mrs? [speaker002:] my husband was here a fortnight ago, Duncan. He'd just been made redundant, and none of the two of us are sleeping at night.... And you gave us ta you gave him a, you gave us tablets. [speaker001:] Oh right. Right, I'm with you now. With you now. And even with the tablets? [speaker002:] Still not sleeping, doctor. [speaker001:] Still not sleeping? Right.... Okay. There you go, just don't get them mixed up, aye. mixed up with the other one.... [speaker002:] I'm going to see the... dermatologist at. [speaker001:] What've you been doing to yourself? [speaker002:] I'm all out in a an allergy.... And [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker002:] nobody can tell me what it is. So I was told to go to the dermatologist. [speaker001:] You wouldn't see him. Right.... Ah.... [cough].... Two of these tablets, these are special ones for yourself. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Okay? Don't, don't give Duncan these ones....... two of these at bedtime for yourself, and... The ones I've given you have a slight effect on your skin as well. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Might stop the irritation as much as we can before you see the specialist Sheila. And [speaker002:] Are they better? Because I'm. [speaker001:] Aye. Aye. Th they'll certainly help to take the, the irritation [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] off the skin er these ones... a you know as well as helping you to sleep, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] these ones are purely and simply to let you pure, pure and simply to let him get a sleep. Er... [speaker002:] it came as a shock fifteen years. [speaker001:] Oh aye. Aye. [cough] They don't take too kindly to it. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] Very few folk take kindly to it. [speaker002:] something to see about as well [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker002:] because I've filled in a self-certified sick line, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] and I'm now, it's just now I need a doctor's one. [speaker001:] Mhm.... There we are now. [speaker002:] Cos that's a if you. I've not done that for years.... I think everything's going [LAUGHTER] []. I think I'll [speaker001:] Ah. Away you go and get turned into a human being. Right. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] my and just have a heart. [speaker001:] On no. No, aye. We'll turn you into a human being yet. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Alright Sheila. [speaker002:] Thank you very much. [speaker001:] Okay now. Right. [speaker002:] Thank you.... [speaker003:] Sorry.

[speaker001:] Hello. [speaker002:] Hello doctor. [speaker001:] Hello Anna. What can I do for you tonight? [speaker002:] so help us, in here the back of my neck, and across here. elbows. [speaker001:] Oh oh. Neuralgia. [speaker002:] And all down my [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] down my, see even here Doctor [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] my fingers and that you know? [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Sometimes I feel as if I cannae stand it [speaker001:] down there. [cough] Excuse me. [speaker002:] . See in here in my neck, too [speaker001:] Aye. Mhm. [speaker002:] it's as if sometimes when I... turn round, oh dear aha [speaker001:] You feel it [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] catching there? Aye, right. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Aye. That's a s that's a neuralgia, a, a slight [speaker002:] Is it? [speaker001:] inflammation on the nerves [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] where they come down there. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] And they go through [speaker002:] . Aha. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right. Okay. I'm not going to [LAUGHTER] poke about [] [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] but er that's right. Right down here, across here, right there, here. That's right. [speaker002:] And I thought across here too, terrible here. Here as if it was gonna. And see my elbows? [speaker001:] like a toothache. [speaker002:] My elbows were sore [speaker001:] That's right. That's right. [speaker002:] and everything, you know in behind the ear here, I felt as if my head was [speaker001:] Aye. [speaker002:] swollen. [speaker001:] From here, right up over [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] the top, [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] and then from there right down the back, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] across the [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] shoulders, around the front here, [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] down here, into your elbows, [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] with a toothache and then right down your fingers. [speaker002:] Then your fingers, aha, aye. Now doctor, I was up, I had that terrible pain across here, [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] I thought I was taking a heart attack, but er Doctor gave me a rub of that Di Difa Dif [speaker001:] Diflam. [speaker002:] Diflam? [speaker001:] Diflam. Yes [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] that's right.... [speaker002:] So would I, would I still use that or what do you think, painkillers or what doctor? [speaker001:] No there is a, there's a special stuff I'm going to give you [speaker002:] Is there? [speaker001:] to get rid of this for you.... Now the other thing that very often goes with this is... a... crunching noise [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker001:] when you, when you move your neck. [speaker002:] See sometimes i well not all the time [speaker001:] No no. No. [speaker002:] but sometimes you feel as if it's going to jerk you [speaker001:] yeah, that's right. [speaker002:] you know you're not going to be [LAUGHTER] able to move it any [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and it's going to stay that way. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No, Anna, you're alright. [] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You're alright. [] Now... [cough] you're still working? [speaker002:] Yes, aha. [speaker001:] Ah, right. Take these tablets just at bedtime. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] Don't take them during the day.... Just two of these... you can either take one after your cup of tea, and one before you go to bed [speaker002:] Bed, aha. [speaker001:] or you can leave them both till bedtime. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] That'll. [speaker002:] Yeah. Aha. That's fine, aha. [speaker001:] Okay? [speaker002:] Right, Doctor, that's fine. [speaker001:] That's er... but that is where the, the nerve [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] from up here, [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] where it splits into all the [speaker002:] Mhm. Aye. [speaker001:] wee bits. [speaker002:] Is that that kind of a swelling you get that swelling? [speaker001:] Aye, that swelling at the side there.... [whispering] Er this is the fourteenth of the fourth [].... There we are now. [speaker002:] That's fine Doctor. [speaker001:] That should get rid of that for you. Now, this will come back. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It might come back in six months, in might come back in six years. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Nobody can tell you. [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] But it keeps coming back. [speaker002:] I thought maybe it was a kind of arthritic you know kind of [speaker001:] No no. [speaker002:] an arthritis kind of a thing, you know. [speaker001:] Well it's not. It's not.... Er the other, the other thing [speaker002:] cos I've a gammy knee as well, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] see when I kneel see when I kneel a lot, [speaker001:] Let's have a wee look [speaker002:] I can hardly [speaker001:] and see what you've done to the poor thing. [speaker002:] I don't know, there's a young doctor, but I cannae remember what she says, but see when I kneel a lot, Doctor [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] it's awfully hard to straighten them you know? [speaker001:] Aye. Just let your, let your foot rest on the floor, Anna. Yeah. You can see there's been... a wee bit of damage to that ligament... just where it goes down over the top of that bone. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Just in here. [speaker002:] Aye, well it's just [speaker001:] Over. [speaker002:] I mean it's not sore when I'm walking or anything Doctor [speaker001:] No. No, that's right. [speaker002:] it's just, she's, I think, I cannae remember what she says, something about nodules on the kneecap or something. [speaker001:] That's just a wee nodules on your kneecap,. [speaker002:] Mhm. She says they, she said they wouldn't really do anything with that unless [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] the knee bent and you couldn't straighten it. [speaker001:] No, leave that alone. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Leave that alone. They'll come and go as well,. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] They'll, they'll, they'll not. they won't they won't come to that [speaker002:] As I say, it doesn't bother me constantly all the time, Doctor you know, it's just I feel I was carrying some shopping down the road [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] you know, keep secret. Oh! [speaker001:] That's right. That's right y you feel as though you want to rub it all the time. [speaker002:] Goodness. Terrible isn't it? [speaker001:] This is old age coming. [speaker002:] Old age doesn't come itself so they say. Och well. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Och well, that's it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] If that's all, if that's all we get for getting old, w w we'll do []. [speaker002:] That's it. Well that's fine, we'll do. [speaker001:] We'll do. Okay, look after yourself now. [speaker002:] Right. Thank you. [speaker001:] Right? [speaker002:] Cheerie-bye. [speaker001:] Cheerio now.

[speaker001:] [singing] La la la la [] Hello. Well Catherine That's okay. Not to worry about that. What've you been doing to yourself? [speaker002:] I've been no I've been taking kind of palpitations, I don't know, and I'm as tired as [speaker001:] Come on let's have a listen to you... and see what you're doing to your poor old self. [speaker002:] They're all cos of the heart trouble in the family, you know.... [speaker001:] Trying to get you worried. [speaker002:] Probably. [speaker001:] Trying to get you worried. [speaker002:] Probably. [speaker001:] Let's have a listen and see what's [speaker002:] ...... [speaker001:] Take a big deep breath.... There we are.... And deep breath again.... Well, let's do just your ordinary breathing bit.... Your heart's ticking away like a clock. [speaker002:] Ah, my heart's. [speaker001:] Let me look in your eyes and see... you might be getting a wee bit bloodless actually I mean that's the other thing Cathy, you're a bit pale in there. [speaker002:] Maybe that's. [speaker001:] Aye. But certainly your heart's ticking away there like a wee clock, it's not... [speaker002:] up to. [speaker001:] Yeah, well that's something.... But... you've not noticed anything else about yourself Catherine, no? [speaker002:] In what way? [speaker001:] Your weight, there's trouble with the water,sh [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] shortness of breath, or s nothing... nothing like that at all? You look just much the same as your usual, you don't [speaker002:] Aye, I'm feeling fine.... I was just that some nights I waken up and you know you can actually hear your [sniff] [LAUGHTER] heart []. [speaker001:] Oh aye, oh y y you better get used to that, cos it'll happen for the rest of your life. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Oh does it []? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes. Aye. Aye no, you get... a once you have heard that, you never waken up without hearing it. [speaker002:] Is that right? [speaker001:] Aye. It's one of these things. It's ha it happens all your life, the noise is there all the time [speaker002:] Aye, but you don't notice it? [speaker001:] You don't notice it a and then once you do, every time you wake up, it's there. [speaker002:] in your head. [speaker001:] you hear, in fact some folk waken up and they can feel it... pulse... coming up there. [speaker002:] Is that right? Aye. [speaker001:] And they, they get very worried about that. It's quite normal. It's quite normal to do that,. [speaker002:] Have you given them and that, you know? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And I wondered why there wasn't and I'd been sitting there for ages, twenty five past five is the appointment. [speaker001:] Mhm. Er... but don't don't worry about that er [speaker002:] Aye. [speaker001:] when you, when you hear that... that's nothing. Nothing to worry about with that...., There we are now [speaker002:] I shall survive again then. [speaker001:] You're going to live for a wee while yet, going to live for a wee while yet. Yes. Oh aye oh [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker001:] If you've got anything funny like that, you get it checked. [speaker002:] Aye, right away. [speaker001:] Don't, don't ignore it. [speaker002:] Well I think you can go home now cos I was the last. [speaker001:] Och. You think so? I would, I wouldn't bet on it. I wouldn't bet on it. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Right, [speaker002:] Thanks. [speaker001:] okay Cathy, cheerio now.

[speaker001:] er and in any, in any event there are a number of things I tend to miss altogether if I want to er keep to timetable which I and I, I'm sure you're, all the, the audience or group or whatever you like to call it that will welcome an extension of the talk. I usually mention briefly on going into business on your own account, working for yourself, but I'll develop that later that that's one of the things I can dr drop out altogether if w depending on the type of group I'm with. So okay, well we'll make a start and then we've got but my first remarks were a little bit, bit so there we are. I did mention that er I'm a retired tax inspector and I'm very long retired, I've been retired for thirteen years, thoroughly enjoying it, hope you too but your first questions w must be what the devil am I doing thirteen years retired tax inspector talking to you on a technical subject, why on earth can't you get the real thing? The short answer was that when I was working as inspector of taxes I used to give these talks, I was required to give talks. And the revenue got mean and decided it couldn't afford the time of serving officers and it left pre-retirement council and other bodies with a gap to fill er the only other people who are er professional if you like, who could fill it, would be accountants and they weren't available. So they had to pull pa back people like me from retirement. Which is fair enough because one of the things I mentioned about the benefits of er or the things we should try to achieve in retirement or secure in retirement, is that if you've had a challenge in life whilst you're working then for goodness sake don't drop it when you retire. There is still the need for a challenge in life and a sense of responsibility or whatever you like to call it. And I find this challenging, these talks, which is why I wasn't at all sorry to be asked to do so and why I continue to do them and I enjoy giving the, I enjoy meeting people, I meet an awful lot of, of nice people. And I learn quite a lot myself but it does give me that little bit of a challenge that er I think is helpful in retirement. Anyway that's by the way. But it so happens, you might say well all these years retired I can't be much good at the job, you'll be interested to know that I give talks to groups which include retiring tax inspectors. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now you get the odd situation that an old codger like me I'm telling people who are just retiring about er how to deal with income tax in retirement. I mention that not in any boastful sense it's only to reassure you that if I can do that then I, I can't be very much out of giving the wrong gen. I'm pleased to know that myself as well. Okay. So that's the background of why I'm giving this as long retired er tax inspector the mean, my own department has got a bit mean. Now your second question must be where do I get my information from, how do I keep up to date? And oddly enough one of my friends asked me only yesterday when he said what's on your programme for next week, he said how on earth do you keep up to date? I say who's in. And it really isn't eas it really isn't difficult to keep up to date er once you've got the background because although income tax does change it only changes annually, it may well change more frequently changes annually. And this year there's been very little change altogether, you may have noticed that or very little change at all. But I'm able to get quite a lot of information and I'm saying this because you too can get it. And there are a number of publications, one of which I regard as my bible, this is out of date of course, tax saving guide on Which, Which tax saving guide. I could dispense with anything else, everything else, including visits to the tax office which I rarely do except to replace my er brochures and and er things that I send round for information. So with that alone you can keep up to date with income tax. Another one h have you met the magazine Choice? It's aimed at people over fifty. Er pleasure of young parents, your rights, franchise and dental treatment, low cost homes, competition. Investigating the possibilities of work after fifty. Well they do periodically articles on income tax, insurance and investment and they're all done by top of the mill people. Another one which may surprise you, Saga. Send a granny abroad or sex and games abroad. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] We're still, we're still going, I, I haven't met it yet but [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . Saga too does excellent investment, income tax and insurance articles from time to time. Thoroughly recommend all, you don't have to be members, we, we are members of the magazine club, because all these are available in local libraries. Er yes, I was going to say something else about Saga. When er I first was introduced to the Saga magazine I read their articles on insurance and I felt that this is, this sounds alright, and we're now covered for insurance through Saga, it's through Lloyds of course, reputable companies, for both the house and the car. You'll be interested to know I've just changed, I've just renewed my insurance policy on my car which is an E reg V W Golf diesel. It's a fully comp, I'm paying a hundred and fifty one pounds. Now I can't touch that anywhere else and I doubt whether anybody else can. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] Now I'm not selling their services but er er there are some er quite surprising er bonuses to pick up from er being members of this, these er various societies. There's yet another one and I always hesitate to mention this one, Help the Aged, I think it's most, yes? [speaker002:] Sorry, can I just come back to the car insurance? Is it for one driver or any driver? [speaker001:] No no my wife drives. Yeah. [speaker002:] Well I pay three hundred and twelve [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I, I admit I've got a son who's [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] twenty five [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but er nevertheless [speaker001:] Mm. Incidentally I always do this and yet I must reassure you that I'm not a Saga representative in anyway, I'm just keen on, on Saga and their facilities. I asked people if th if they would like a complimentary copy of the Saga magazine and all their brochures and they can do so by er, members like myself we're asked from time to time, do we know any friends who would like a copy? So I usually leave a er sheet of paper on the table and if you're, if you're interested in getting a free brochure what I shall do at the end of the course is to send this off er together with one of the cards that they let me have and er in due time you'll get a free Saga magazine. So I'll leave it about if you don't bother if you're not but er I, I, I think that they're er they're very good organizations. We don't now go on the Saga holidays, simply because they er or solely because you need to go down to Gatwick to catch the planes and we're not to doing that East Midlands or. Anyway that's very much by the way. But I was saying about Help the Aged, Check Your Tax. They do some quite remarkably good booklets so don't rip it off by the heading and er nobody regards themselves as aged these days do they? There's an office in town opposite Boots on Parliament Street and there's a great range of leaflets in there on all sorts of things. So please don't be put off by the title, it says Help the Aged, I ain't going in there! Just have a browse and have a look in and see what's. Right, now I mustn't be seen to be indicating in any way that er you don't have to bother with it all, because they too put all out some excellent er booklets, brochures I've got two thick pads of them which I'll let you circulate. just to see what's available. you'll be surprised what's available in the. And the changes in my day when, when I was working, we'd have some leaflets but they were written in a very er sort of... technical way. These are, they really are good. The er you'll be interested I think, those of you who've not met the er independent taxation changes that have come about, there's a great booklet a great series of books on er independent taxation about people who are considering working for themselves there's some booklets. So the revenue themselves do er a really good information service and if you go into any tax office, you don't have to go to the counter, there's often a queue or you get this little card system which, number system you're, you're next. All these booklets are o on display just inside the general office, Right, now another way contact my is in Cardiff, I know yours isn't up to local or if no it isn't it [speaker002:] Mine is local but I don't know what will happen when I've retired. [speaker001:] Ah yes I yes I, I mean local. Yeah, the superannuation, I've mentioned the, the er Paymaster General, which basically. So my, my tax office is in Cardiff, now the quick way in to your tax office, where ever it is, and if it changes, is you get the telephone number, you get the reference room of Salaries or Pension Department, you ring your tax office, quote your name, the tax office reference although that's n these days isn't important but you must quote your national insurance number, by doing that you get put through to the person who presses a button and says, oh yes you're Mr or Mrs so-and-so, what can I tell you? It's like this commercial organization when you ring up don't you? They say oh yes sir we know all about you we've got. Well you can do that by simply quoting your name, national insurance number to your own tax office. And er if it's more convenient, if you've got er a lengthy inquiry, call into any tax office, the nearest one, I've even called into tax offices when we've been away for a weekend, just to pick up brochures and things like that. Er well not in any weekend because they would be closed, wouldn't they? But I've called into other tax offices and they too can get on their video screen y th your history from your tax office. And then they're, they're fully au fait with all your affairs and talk to you quite sensibly. [speaker002:] That's quite interesting, Bernard, as an ex tax inspector you go away and worry about your income tax over the weekend like we do. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No, well you're right except that I find it more convenient to replace my booklets if I'm in er Cardiff on my weekend when I happen to pass a tax office I pop in, replace them. Okay that's, that's enough about that. Right I mentioned about er about questions, fire away as, as you think about it. Now the first main subject if you like or part subjects is personal allowances because they affect everything that er I'm going to say. Now you may know all about personal allowances or you may think you know all about personal allowances and I thought like that. But they have changed in the last few years and there are some quite significant elements about personal allowances that you ought to know about, one of which is independent taxation, and this talk is actually personal allowances and independent taxation. Now independent taxation, as you may know, came in, we're now in ninety three four, I've only just altered the heading because very little else has changed and I'm a lazy so and so I can't rewrite it just for the heading. The previous year was ninety two ninety three, the year that's just gone. The previous year to that, ninety one ninety two, there was a change in the income tax regulations, affecting married women, only married women, everybody is the same, stayed the same. In, prior to ninety one ninety two which is three years prior to now, a married woman was entitled to the same as that, it was, they didn't call it basic allowance, the same amount only if she was married of course and working, it had to be earned income. And if a married woman in her own right had investment income, she'd got money in a building society or a bank or what have you... Morning! Then, and no earnings, she didn't qualify for an allowance at all, because investment income, then, was her husband's. A married woman's investment income, prior to ninety one ninety two, was her husband's not hers. But from ninety one ninety two onwards a married woman was entitled to an allowance in her own right, and it still mystifies me knowing Mrs Thatcher was in office for all those years, why it took so long for this to happen,. So ninety one ninety two a married woman was entitled to a basic personal allowance of three four four five which could be set against any income erm or investment. And the change now means that if a married woman, it doesn't, as I say, it doesn't affect single women, if a married woman now hasn't earned income using all her allowances, so she doesn't work hasn't worked, never qualified for a pension, or does work but doesn't earn more than that, and the couple have got investment income then it's sensible to switch that into the wife's name to give her income to use up her allowances. Because otherwise the investment income stays with the husband, taxed at his rate which could be forty, and they're therefore wasting the balance of allowances, the wife's allowances. Or if a wife was earning, working or had a pension and did use her allowances, but the husband was paying forty percent, the same switch of investments, transferring income to the wife, even though it was chargeable at twenty percent or twenty five, was relieving the husband's forty percent. Or down the scale again, the husband could be paying twenty five percent and the wife twenty percent, and they could switch investments between the two. Or between wife and husband, we tend to think only of transfer from husbands to wife, but er we do meet quite er a w er ladies who've got quite high earnings and they themselves are paying forty percent in which case they should make sure that any investment income of theirs is transferred to the husband, so as to get the, to either use up allowances that are not being used at all because of absence of the income, or to benefit from these different rates of tax. [speaker002:] They might run off and take it with them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Well this is the risk you have to take but er, and it's a, it's a profit at this stage where er people are coming up to receiving lump sums in retirement and wonder how best to invest it, well seems to me there's no better investment than to, than to put it into tax free sources that you have available to you. Now when I say transfer assets to er a wife it will also if you've got a joint account. It may, may be in the husband's sole name and maybe his lump sum on retirement would otherwise be going into his own account oh and they may say put it into a joint account. Now with joint accounts the revenue regards the income as being shared equally, whether or not the capital was put in equally the, the revenue says interest on a joint account is equally shared. And it may well be that an equal share of interest doesn't achieve the best result. So if you've got an account in a husband's name and it would be better in a wife's name, close the account. If you've got a joint account look to see whether closure and transfer of the asset into the wife's name will give you a better result. It's no good saying to the revenue well half of it er my wife has half of this account therefore I'm not regarding it as mine. It has to be an account in the wife's name, it has to be a genuine transfer to a wife so that there's no doubt about it but it is a on her account. But you can see that er for someone who has no, a wife who has no income and her husband's paying twenty five percent or forty percent then by moving a, say er twenty thousand at erm well er whatever percentage to fill up these allowances er if you're getting ten thousand or twenty thousand put, put it into the wife's name that they give us the interest is then hers, if she has no other income it neatly can be swallowed up by the allowance. [speaker002:] Does anyone have to pay any tax say on building society? [speaker001:] Well on building society in that your building society are have change too in ninety one two at the same time. Prior to ninety one two when independent taxation came in banks and building societies were just taxed at source, as it is today. But you couldn't get that tax back, whatever your circumstances were. An odd situation, don't quite know why, there are nu numerous odd situations in here er in income tax, there's nothing fair about income tax at all. And building society, anybody who has a building society account prior to ninety one two if they hadn't income really i they were silly to have money in the building society account because they were having tax deducted but couldn't get it back and at the same time as the independent taxation they changed the er tax system for building societies and banks which meant that banks and building societies were then deducted tax at the standard rate of twenty five percent and it could be refunded or repaid or not deducted in certain circumstances, so back to your question, anybody who has money in a building society now, or isn't taxable, should ask the building society not to deduct tax, as they're entitled to do, fill a form and, and where people can state that they don't, they're not liable to pay tax, building societies and banks will not now deduct income tax. And you'll be [speaker002:] And that's a mar that is a married couple? [speaker001:] That's for a married couple, but er anybody who hasn't income, single person, children! Children, particularly our own grandchildren I discovered er had got money in the building societies I mean we give them money for presents and throw it into a building society, and I said what's happening about your, your tax? What tax? You know and then they realize that er in showing a building society account they just showed the interest after deduction of tax. And they n have now claimed exemption, so any child or any person who hasn't got income using up all their basic allowances should apply to banks or building societies not to deduct their tax [speaker002:] Could could I just ask [speaker001:] Yes? [speaker002:] if you've, you've not already opted for individual er taxation er and you decide to do so after retirement how, how do I go about doing that, I mean does, does i if I invest er a lump sum in my wife's name, we've got to have opted for individual [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] taxation have we? No. [speaker001:] No, there's no such thing as individual taxation. [speaker002:] Th well what I meant was er what did I mean? I'm not sure. [speaker001:] Independent? [speaker002:] Independent taxation. [speaker001:] Independent taxation. Well ind all independent taxation is, it isn't an option, it simply means that a wife from ninety one two is independent of her husband for all tax purposes. [speaker002:] Oh right. That's [speaker001:] all [speaker002:] automatic is it? [speaker001:] Automatic. [speaker002:] Oh right, right you see yeah [speaker001:] And from that day [speaker002:] never think about these things. [speaker001:] from that day a wife's [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] a wife's income is not included in her husband's return. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] You do not now show your wife's [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] income. She is required to have an inc a return of her own. [speaker002:] Right so I don't need to do anything for that? [speaker001:] You don't need to do anything, you simply, you simply move your money into an account in your wife's name. [speaker002:] In me wife's name. [speaker001:] Gives her income and it's balanced by her allowances and if you move not sufficient to, for the income to exceed that then at the same time it goes into a bank or building society you apply for them not to deduct income. [speaker002:] Right you just fill a form in? At the building society or the bank or? [speaker001:] You just fill a form in. Yeah. Building societies and bank, and further [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker001:] further to that, I don't know whether anybody's got a recent notice of coding, I did. Can you help someone to get your tax back? They're asking me! Can I help someone to get my tax back. The revenue is so desperate now because of this change in banks and building societies have left people not knowing what the situation is, and er there are millions, I'm, I'm not exaggerating there are twelve million, over two million pounds is being spent by the revenue on a new tax-back advert, sorry I did exaggerate, the idea is to remind about ten million people on all, on low income, that they could claim back tax which has been deducted from taxed savings. And it is men and women, people on low income and children, you know your, so bear in mind your own children and grandchildren, if they haven't got income up to three four four five, tell them to watch this deduction of tax from banks or building societies. There are also these privatization a lot of husbands and wives bought these shares of privatization had it in joint names, well that tax will have been deducted and can be reclaimed also, so er this was a change that came about with independent taxation. Have I dealt with that? [speaker002:] Er, interest rates are going up and down [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] If y you,s say that the wife's income i is, is three, four hundred erm and interest rates go up and then you go over, [speaker001:] Over. [speaker002:] what happens then? [speaker001:] Well the, the er official answer is that you [tape change] will be authorized to uprate the value of all. It's quite simple, save the revenue billions of pounds in er overtime payments over the years, but that's what they are. there's a great range of them, all sorts of different letters er merely er categorizing certain types of person. Anyway back to main point, so up to retirement quite straightforward, no problem at all and this is why he could have gone on for donkey years without a return of income, his salary goes up of course, it's picked up in the tax tables, his personal allowances don't change so they could swan along there for so many years without even looking at his affairs, but then see what happens in the very next tax year, when he hasn't had a return and may not get a return for a couple of years. In this case he has and they've an and conveniently of course for this example it's all been put into, into a statement. Now he's become sixty five so as you remember he qualifies for the larger age allowances, he qualifies for the larger married couples allowance, so his total allowances are of course considerably increased by the fifteen hundred pounds. But then he had no adjustments to make here, he'd no other income to collect but here he's got three sources of income to be collected out of his on the pension only. So in the first case they've given him, the first place they've given him six six six five allowances but then they pull back the total of those three. It effectively charges it because if you've got six thousand allowances and you withdraw that amount putting it against the total income it means that you're actually paying tax on those by deduction. But that's how the revenue works out how t t to collect income where it can't operate a separate pay as you earn coding system, it withdraws some of the allowances and effectively charges tax. So straight away you see what's happened in this case his code becomes two eighty one H whereas previously we've got quite a high code and yet his total income is er not er comparative to the change in code numbers and this is what has that effect, that all that tax on all this income has to be collected against his works pension, thereby causing a lot of confusion and difficulty for er people becoming retired. And as I say that is er fairly straightforward. Now on to this business of a part time job. If you are w going to work part time or full time in most cases there would be a separate coding for it, in this particular example it's an employment where they don't operate pay as you earn,i if, use my old phrase no longer applicable I suppose, a corner shop. If someone were to work part time for a corner shop keeper who had no other employees there would be no way of collecting tax at that employment. But of course if he worked for Raleigh where they've got a vast labour force a vast pay as you earn scheme then any income would be taxed by Raleigh as a subsidiary source so there would be another code number there, they would actually be collecting tax at two sources, but they would still need to allocate allowances, it may well be that, at Raleigh for example, they've covered that by allowances in which case they pull back five hundred pounds there to collect. Or they may have charged the five hundred at twenty five percent in which case they needn't then make any adjustment on his code. But you can see, whatever they do it is still an adjustment within that same basic outline. Still this little bit of involvement at a time when you think life is going to be much simpler.... So this is why I emphasize the fact that when you become retired your circumstances are all always going to change for the worse as far as adjustments are concerned. So use the opportunity, get a return, make them take a good look at you and then you know you're alright and can go on for another couple of years and make them look at you again. Okay watching time cos it's amazing how much time goes. I mentioned erm benefits of er of exempt income and I showed er a feature with this and I apologize that the fact that's it's TESSA but I do this with TESSA because it's the one way that you can illustrate the point I want to make. And National Savings and TESSA, some of them, not all, they operate this compound interest factor, now you all know what is, what compound interest is, it's, you get interest on interest. But the advantage of the er tax exempt bit is that with these you start getting interest on tax that you haven't payed,. This is what happens with tax exempt sources and by looking at a TESSA and assuming you pay the maximum each year which are those figures and assuming that the interest rate stays at seven and a half percent, it won't but it's seven and a half percent at the moment, then this is what happens, at the end of the first year you've put in your three thousand your interest at seven and a half percent is two twenty five and you would otherwise pay tax at fifty six at twenty five percent or twenty or forty which would be those figures, but you don't. But because you don't that amount hasn't been withdrawn from that two twenty five, so that in the next year you put in your eighteen hundred and at the end of that year you get interest on three thousand eight hundred and of course the two twenty five which happens to be three seventy seven, so at that second year you start getting interest on the fifty six pounds that you haven't been required to pay. And this is what happens with this, as the years proceed you're getting interest on the previous year's interest which includes the tax that you would otherwise, that would otherwise have gone from your account in paying into income tax. So that at the end of the five years, assuming you've paid the maximum stake at seven and a half percent, you would, otherwise you would receive the nine thousand back of course, and at that rate you would receive two six seven one and that will include, if you're a twenty five percent payer, six hundred and sixty seven that you would have otherwise lost in, that would have gone out in tax. Or if you're forty percent you would have actually paid a thousand and sixty seven, but because you didn't pay that because it's tax exempt you actually gained that amount of interest on the tax that stayed in with your account. So the advice is, and I'm not an investment advisor, it's because of the exemption you must always take advantage of all tax exempt forms of savings before you look at anything else. You really should because you, you get those advantages. Not with all National Savings, there are some that don't a apply the compound interest factor, you get the interest at the end on the sum that you put in at the beginning. It's where you get the interest on interest throughout the years and would otherwise pay tax on that interest and don't and the amount that you haven't paid stays in and gets the compounding the same as the interest. [speaker002:] right in thinking you can only have one TESSA? [speaker001:] You can, indeed, only have the one TESSA. Husband and wife can have two accounts. And you don't need to put in the whole amount, but then if you don't put in the whole amount or you withdraw the net interest which you're entitled to do then you're pulling away the build-up aren't you? You're stopping the, you're stopping it building up. Hello shan't be long [door closing] just in time for a cuppa. [speaker002:] If you've missed a year can you put in twice the amount the following year? [speaker001:] Er [speaker002:] For instance if you've missed your eighteen hundred on year two, if you put in three thousand six hundred [speaker001:] that's a good question I don't know, I don't know. [speaker002:] I think the answer is no, because it closes whatever the anniversary of the day you started, that's the year. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] If you start the twenty fourth of April [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] it goes to the twenty fourth of April next year [speaker001:] Twenty fourth of April. [speaker002:] and then it you on that day. [speaker001:] Just noticed on my little notice the shop. Did you know that there's a building society shop in Nottingham? And it enables you to call in there and they will give you th the details of the best building society rates throughout the country. It's a shop, they sell building society information and they will invest for it. But er you can call in and they [speaker002:] Where is it? [speaker001:] It's on. It's the building society shop, they will tell you what the rates are and what are the best rates. You can say well I want to do, put my money so and so, what's the best rate for me? Or er er understand I'm not entirely certain about that, they do the same with, they will tell you which are the, which are paying the best TESSA rates. have to be careful because I'm not an investment advisor, I'm simply talking about the benefits of the tax exemption. If that happens to be investment advice well then so be it. Okay quick question. [speaker002:] ever so quickly. [speaker001:] We can, we can have any further in s sorry, we can have any further during the conclusion session which is, this is where we tend run on, okay? [speaker002:] Small business you're setting up as self employed [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] could we talk about that some time? [speaker001:] I'll do i shall I do it conclusion? Later? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] I'm, I'm run out of time now because I intended to make now erm erm short of time. But the, the afternoon session conclusion [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] one is, as far as I can see, is to do this where we fit, where we're able to fit in subjects that er we missed, so certainly we'll fit it in on the, on the later session. I really did want to talk about being in business on your own account as opposed to er working for an employer. Okay.

[speaker001:] it then takes away the acid from the joint. And can you see it will not cure rheumaticky knees, but it gets you rid of the acid for the time being. If you don't get rid of acid you know what it does to even metal, if it sits on metal it eats through it, so you imagine what it does to your bones when it sits on them. And this is why with forms of arthritis you get deformity and you get n er b the joint won't, won't use. So can you see it is vital that all of you keep your circulation going right and a good idea is to start it in bed so that before you get out and put weight on your limbs... [break in recording]... And the same with the rest of your body get your circulation going, get the joints doing a bit of movement and before you get up and give them the added job of bearing your weight. Now if you're a rheumatism person you will know that you have difficulty getting out of bed in the morning unless you do something, and this is the way of doing it, move in the bed before, get the circulation going so it moves the acid so that you can move. And don't let it deform the joints cos it does eventually. Why I'm very positive about this I am a rheumatoid arthritis person, have been since I oh I don't know happen to be in my fifties I think. And I have been years on Bold injections and all the rest of it, and I know from experience you get, you deal with it, it doesn't cure the disease but can you see you have a way of dealing with it, of coping with it, of helping yourself er c er do things and therefore you can [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] You've mastered it, it hasn't mastered you. It, if it's left it will deform joints. That hand of mine won't go the right shape although I've tried, I knew it would deform joints and so I put all my efforts into spreading them the opposite way, but I haven't won on that one, can you see? Because it's affected the bone, once the bone is affected you can't get it right, cos the bone's done. So it's very important that you do [speaker002:] What of course you don't see is wh what it will have looked like if you have n't. [speaker001:] N well I, I, I had, why I was so positive about it, I had an uncle who had it very badly and as a child I was very aware of his hands, they were quite inhuman looking, they were that shape, and you know everything he did he, he had to that and that's remained in my mind that when I got it I though I won't have the hands like that so I r I w I go, I went to sleep, I still do it, every night, spread my hands, the last thing I think about, spread the hands. Now it affects all the joints as well but somehow or other I felt that that was the thing that stuck in my mind from seeing him. And that one which eventually o originally was the worst hand has, has got the less er damage to it. So again you see it is up to you to do, deal with it. I think as long as you've got some way of dealing with things you can live with them. Cos you're, it's positive again, you're in charge and not it. Now suppleness is the most important, but when you've got that you have to go for something else before you even can grow the stamina, and that is strength, the power of the muscle to produce the body action, resist gravity and work against resistance. Y the power comes from muscle contraction, it's needed for movement, management, balance and agility and for lifting and handling objects. It needs regular graded notice, progressive practice to build and maintain the skill. Care must be taken to start from each individual's capability. Because your friend can do some fantastic things it doesn't mean to say your muscles will, you could be in trouble. You must start, you forget there where he is or she is, but you've got to start from your actual capacity otherwise you're in danger in that. Now er how powerful are your muscles? What will they do? Have you thought about them lately, about how strong are they? Just let's have a little test on that one. sit on the table. You're sitting in your chair, just lift up one knee will you, and the other one. And repeat that, right. Now he'll put it up and hold it. Now the muscles are not r working to lift it, they're working to hold it against gravity, gravity saying go on let it go. And can you see by about now the muscles are beginning to feel. Again the same thing, there's contraction in that muscle which stops the blood flowing which builds the acid and therefore it begins to hurt, let it go. And again you see if you increase the load, can you take up both, back... pick them up again. We all know how easy that is to do, and if I say hold it [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] we find a few more, right let it go. Can you see it requires more in a static holding, this is building muscle power and you have to do things, and muscle can build it if, it c if you asked that those legs to do that every day they would get better at it, because what the body would then do would be build in more muscle fibre to cope with the job, so can you see it, what you ask the body to do, you've got to ask it the right amount, not too much or else you damage and you've got to ask it regularly and gradually increase it if you want to improve the muscle power. Now again if you take a good look round the retired people in town there is, you just sit down on one of those benches in town and watch people for a bit, and you'll see that a lot of them are deteriorating physically and that is making them, making it difficult for them to get about socially, shopping- wise and so on. And again can you see what will happen. If it is getting difficult you can see what's going to happen, they're going to think oh well I won't go to town today, I'll go to the corner shop and manage. In other words they're going to ask their body to do less and less and less. And there was a, a book, I always regret not pho photostatting it, where one of the people who write on health er made the point that you start with the full page in the book, and the outer band of it were all pictures of the world, and then it was erm a particular sort of location in a town, and then it was a house and garden and then it was a room in a house. Can you see what it says? Yeah. And that happens gradually, you know the person concerned isn't always aware unless they're very very, have some way of telling. When you retire, you see at the moment in your job you will know how you cope with the job so if the job's in your, round your house or if the job's ins in, in your work. Erm how are you going to know when you retire whether your physical ability is deteriorating? Only if you've got something to measure it by. You see, erm [speaker002:] Appraisal. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] see your skills aren't going to be wasted. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You're going to need them in your retirement. Er [speaker002:] Do we send our to you? [LAUGHTER] chart. [speaker001:] You see speed is one thing, how do you know whether you're getting slower? Er i this is why it's important that you mix with people, that you get out and about, because if you find that everybody else is, is getting up the hill faster than you and everybody else is crossing the roads quicker than you and all the rest of it, it should tell you something, now I mean I don't even want to go into competition but I think it is good occasionally to see if you can walk as fast as that eighteen year old in front of you. Can you keep up with up her? I mean you probably beat her with a lot of the eighteen year olds you see. But can you see, have some idea how long does it take you to go some, to one place to another that you go regularly. Are you taking more time as you go along? I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't take longer if you're intending to take longer because you want to enjoy the, the view. Er are you feeling in the mood to take it easy? Er sometimes I, I'm, I get a lot, a lot of things on, I have at the moment, an awful lot of things on, so everything is you know getting in a p a tight path and fast, so I deliberately thoroughly enjoy taking my dog and wandering along in the park. And I'm going as slow as I can go and I'm just taking everything in, and I'm unwinding, I'm relaxing mentally and physically as I do it because that's what I feel I need at the moment, and having that ability is good. But on the other hand I don't want to wake up with horror one day when I find that I've lost all my physical abilities because I wasn't taking too much care of them and observing. Again another thing too, is that boosting your ego side, if you s if you set yourself a little bit of a target and you can manage it er can you run up the hill? Can you still run? Can you balance? Can you get over er fences un er er across a ditch? I c I, I tell this story cos I think it illustrates it very much, I expect most of you have er if you haven't been you've heard of Dale in Derbyshire, and it's this river with a, a lovely walk either side of the river, you walk along the side and then you come to the point where there's a bend in the river and there's these gorgeous great enormous stepping stones. And I went about two years ago on a gorgeous and sunny morning like one of the first of the season, you know, and the place was packed. And I had t spent a fascinating time standing near the stepping stones and looking at people. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Because you know they came up, they were full of the joys of spring, looking around, chatting to their friends and then they r started looking at the stepping stone. And you knew what they were thinking, they were trying to weigh up whether they dare go across the stepping stones and you could tell by their faces and what they did of course when they decided no it was beyond them and they'd play safe and they'd go back the same way. But can you see the people who came to the stepping stones and couldn't go across and had to go back the way they'd already come wouldn't go back with a very [breath] their ego wouldn't have b been boosted very high. But the ones who'd found, you know, wondered about the stepping stones and then had plucked up their courage and then had got across safely, can you see how they would have walked down the other side? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh all their friends what they'd done. I bet. They had met a challenge and they'd succeeded, indeed we all need them. And what challenges are you going to meet you see to boost your ego, because if you don't boost it you're going to be in trouble. So this is why you've got to have it. You'd be stupid to go across the stepping stones if you didn't have the power to jump from one to the other, pretty big, but the, so are the distances between them and at that time of the year the river was pretty high too and r rather boisterous, so it wouldn't be very pleasant if you had fallen in, but you've got to have that but you've also got to have stamina as you said, but it wouldn't have been any fun if you'd got halfway across and [LAUGHTER] your stamina had run out, then fire brigade called out, the fire brigade or something []. So you need to have the ability to keep going but you can't get stamina till you've previously got s the, the strength in the muscles to do it. Er the other thing you've got to have and very essentially, is coordination, got to cross those stepping stones if you couldn't coordinate the action right, now this is vitally important this coordination, it's the skilful interaction of the five senses, the brain, the nerves and the muscles, acting with the right degree of effort and timing. You don't get your timing right and you'd be in the river, don't get the effort right and you'd still be in the river wouldn't you? This type of work, movement works closely with memorization in many cases, these skills are essential for daily living, they need regular daily practice in a great variety of situations. Now if you don't have coordination and you're, then you're in dire trouble. You think of some of the erm handicapped people that you know, that's what they lack in, their movements are erratic and disjointed, they don't have the fine coordination so life is very difficult then for them to manage. Coordination at its highest, when we develop it, we say we've developed skills, and if you've done that can you see you acquired skills in quite a lot of situations, and again that's an area where you'll get a great deal of satisfaction. I mean if you're absolutely marvellous at painting and produce gorgeous pictures and so forth that everybody else admires, not only gives you something to do but boosts again your ego and your satisfaction but you need very good coordination to do anything which requires the skill. On the other hand, can you see if coordination gets er deteriorates in any way you're going to be cut off from an awful lot of things you now, you might have been marvellous at embroidery, it gave you a lot of satisfaction but if your co coordination starts to go then the quality of what you can do will satisfy you, will dissatisfy you, make you feel annoyed. So again we do need to practise coordination it needs to have lots of practice, it is of course frequently affected by certain types of illnesses er and, and again that may be inevitable but again the more past experience you've acquired and the more, the greater your ability to fight back, even though you're fighting a losing battle if it's an illness, can you see it's going to delay the difficult bit the difficult part longer, you're going to be able to cope. That's important and of course when you lose, really lose your powers of coordination then you lose the ability to look after yourself, you can't dress yourself, you can't feed yourself and when that happens it's into a home and geriatric ward and be looked after. So it, it is a very vital part. Then comes your stamina that you've mentioned, the ability to maintain prolonged physical and mental effort, notice it's also mental, it's not just physical. The staying power having endurance again you say with the feeling of the mind as well as the, the body. Keeping going without distress. It needs regular, graded, progressive training to build up the muscle power and gradually improve cardiac output. That's your ability for your heartbeat and your heart to get the oxygen it requires from your lungs and to keep going, cos if that d h doesn't happen all the rest just goes. Er it needs skilled coordination and rhythm to help build the, keep the action going, developing stamina helps us to cope with work and leisure without undue tiredness. So that you can enjoy your hobbies and, and, and, and you know, you can take on hobbies that do, do require quite a lot from you, if you've got the stamina. Also very useful in emer in emergencies, you think of a, do you remember the ferry disaster? Th the one that was so bad, where a man used his back for other people to escape by? Now people th people there, those people would have been in dire trouble if there hadn't been somebody who could do that. Now I always think of that as stamina cos I think that must have been a terrific stamina thing. He must have felt it and he must have suffered afterwards from it I would imagine, but he had, he had those qualifications, he had those abilities and he used them for a. Now we never know, especially in this day and age, what situation we're going to be in, and would your physical ability save you? Would it be able to even go further and save other people? The, you may get by very nicely on very moderate physical ability in ordinary every day life because you can kind of order what you're going to let yourself in for. But if you're in an emergency situ situation, you don't know and would you be equal to it, would you have some reserve you could fall on? And it is important to think about that. And then we haven't finished yet. [speaker002:] We just ask on that on? What [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] what are the best exercises then or the best form of exercise to build up some ticker to build up the heart? [speaker001:] Erm again, this is why er er jogging at th at this point became so er popular if you remember everyb er a little while, few years ago everybody was rushing out jogging and there are still people who are doing it. Now again it's very difficult to say because jogging will not be any good to you unless you're in the right condition to do jogging and unless you've got the right conditions to jog. For instance the, the doctors in the hospitals had a lot of work because people rushed into jogging who weren't fit for it or weren't doing it with the right conditions. You should, you, you're advised not to jog on tarmac because the surface is hard and jars and so if you do a lot of it can you see and if, particularly if your joints are not equal to it, then you set up a lot of trouble. Erm it, again if you'd only do things like jogging it will build up, if you've got the right conditions, your heart y y your heart and lung ability, but in order to have this stamina that we're talking about you've got to have power. Now jogging doesn't give power to the big muscles of the body, it doesn't do that so again you'd you'd have to be doing something which, that built up the power. Er again if you're in certain situations you need coordin very very good coordination and timing and again just jogging would not do that. Er you need to have a much more all round variety of exercise to build up the different things. Does that answer it for you or not? [speaker002:] A specific exercise is aimed at specific [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] muscles [speaker001:] Muscles yes, you've got to er if you're going to build power into muscles you've got to, you've got to give the load to those particular muscles and you've got to do it at the right load. This is the whole things behind weight training, it's not a thing I've ever done it cos it I would find that boring, it's er too mechanical for me. But erm the idea is you give a certain load, a reasonable load, to a muscle and it will cope with that then you increase the load and it increases the muscle power to deal with the increased load. This is how these men make themselves into all those freak things where muscles bulge all over the place, they look as if they're about to, I'm not quite sure, they always remind of erm those balloons, you know, that pop off beach balls, they look a bit like that. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] But that's how they build their muscles you see, it's all very scientific and they and they're very dedicated and they know how they do it. No the, the principle of it is good, we could all do with a bit more muscle building than we have. But you've got to do the right kind of exercise to get the effect er and again when you come to stamina it's got to be, you've got to have a bit of the all round to go with the stamina. Erm and again when I [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] you need also, very much, to have the all round development, the ability to be nimble, speedy and capable of dealing with the unexpected, and a series of movements demanding and challenging on weight transference and balance performed with speed and various use of space. Can you see how variable it has to be, because you've got about everything in there. Er it needs a safe level of suppleness, strength, stamina and coordination. It calls for confidence and courage. You notice where that is, courage, that'll be partly in you [speaker002:] Deciding to go on the stepping stones. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes. Partly in you, you know, that, that, that, that likes a challenge and you like to step up to things that are difficult and you can summon up your courage very easily and oth some people have more difficulty. But when mastered it gives a great feeling of exhilaration and achievement, in other words your ego's going to get built if you're good on that. But you'd be a fool to try and get this agility if you haven't got those safe levels suppleness, strength, stamina and coordination cos you'd be asking for trouble. So [speaker002:] How how do you rate cycling and swimming? [speaker001:] Erm swimming is recommended as about the most all round exercise because it certainly does your heart and lungs, it does all the muscles of the body, it, according to what you do in the water of course, I mean if you just go and stand there it does nothing [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] er but if you are actually swimming and you are using the different strokes and so forth, it does use power-wise all the main muscles of the body. And it certainly does the heart and lungs and it certainly has erm that feeling that you can wriggle and move around in the water, so it certainly gives you this feeling of agility as well. Er this is why swimming's been taken up by quite a lot, there are retir classes for people who've retired and can't swim. There's quite a lot of those being arranged, that's quite a good way of doing it. Erm what was the other one? [speaker002:] Cycling. Cycling. [speaker001:] Cycling. Well I thought that cycling built power in the leg muscles, it's, I mean it ought to didn't it? But I have, I, I've ever since I've retired I've run a performing dance group of men and women erm who do it for a hobby. And er I have in there one of the great cyclist, he cycles all over the country, he's gone from John O'Groats down the other way and across the opposite way, he cycles everywhere, he never goes in car he always cycles everywhere he goes. And he's got the weakest legs in my dance group. Now I can't account for that, because he ought to have strong ones didn't he, if he did all that stuff there? I think the a I think the thing is is that I, we can't mentally get into realize how to use his body weight which comes from using your feet and getting and the l and your legs and so forth. But in theory cycling shouldn't give you very strong leg muscles. And certainly do your heart and lungs. I don't know that is does much for your shoulders and arms and so forth, but can you see that's a that's, that's what it is. Some things will give all round, but others won't. I mean if you say you dance, it depends on how you dance whether it does everything for you, because some are very concerned with keeping the body rather aloof, like ballet i i i minimize it, you try to pretend you don't have any body weight in ballet, you control it. Er and therefore it is usually very good foot and leg work and the line of the body er but it's not, it wouldn't be ever so good at agility, because it is concerned with holding, with holding your body weight from gravity. Now to be agile you've got to be able to let your body give to gravity and then pull away from gravity, alternating very quickly er that gives you agility. So again there aren't many things that do complete, swimming I think I far as I can see is the only one that does, but then again that depends on how you use the swimming, it, it just, just cos you bathes every week doesn't necessarily mean that it does do it for you, it depends what you do, okay? Right now can you see you've got an awful lot there to be working on, now I've got one more. Here it's called awareness, in dance call it sensitivity, sensitivity to what is happening around us with the ability to react sometimes at great speed. It calls for physical and mental reaction and is sometimes affected for good or bad by our emotions. You see if you are very angry about something, about a situation you know that when you're in that anger it's so strong that you wouldn't notice if something happened right under your nose because your anger is u occupying your, your brain and your senses. Erm on the other hand if you s in some situations er i i your anger would, would, could make you acutely aware of something, more acutely aware than the other, so it depends. it needs a well trained body, a flexible mind and feelings that can be analyzed and used. It requires lots of experience of working with other people in varied situations. But that sensitivity in my book is what is going to give you a tremendous amount of pleasure in your retirement. If you've got it to use... and you plan your retirement is, isn't that if what you're hoping to do? Go places and do things? [speaker002:] Can not super sensitiv super sensitivity work both ways? You can ex experience great happiness and great [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because of the sensitivity. So it's really your attitude as to what you make of it. [speaker001:] Mm. And again you see, er it's personal choice in retirement and you've got to choose it to suit your, you. Because you are an individual.... You've got a personality, a character which was partly what you were born with, partly what life has developed in you, as somebody described it e we, we are the sum total of the luggage we've acquired. Erm but again you see you could, you would, you wouldn't want to be a person who was only aware of all the good things and the bright things and the light things and the enjoyable things and were never aware of the others. Er do you want to feel that in your retirement, you experience the full range of emotions? Would you find that something you wanted, that you were able to experience the full range of emotions? Or would you want to shy away from everything that was unpleasant or difficult? Or would you be one of those people who only ever saw the worst of everything, because they are around aren't they? Erm so they only pick up and they thoroughly enjoy disaster. Er and they're very sensitive to that and they pick it up and make the most of it. Er they're the real to work with, er but can you see the choice? It's going to, to really be what you want, what you make of it. [speaker002:] Isn't it true though that [speaker001:] Pardon? [speaker002:] if you haven't sensed sorrow you can't really sense joy to its. [speaker001:] This is the point isn't it? There's, there's part of life that, that you've been missing if you haven't had some experience somewhere, and as you say er some of the most beautiful things in life... move you to tears. [speaker002:] Bertrand Russell said the prerequisite of happiness is to be without it. [speaker001:] Yes. If you think about that, that, that's true isn't it? [speaker002:] Until you've known loss you've never known what you really have got. [speaker001:] Well I think that I, I think most of us when you get to this to, well not to my age, to your ages, we've experienced that I think. Yes I think you, you, you'd agree on that wouldn't you? So erm where does this leaves us? Have, have you got those physical abilities that we talked about? Have you got any idea in your retirement about how you're going to keep yourself so that your body is not going to be a handicap to you? Because that's really what you want isn't it? You want your body to get about as easily as possible and be able to do the things that your mind seizes on that you want to, to have a go at and to make a reasonable job of it. Now again you see i there's a million ways that you can do it. But I think another important thing is to weigh up yourself, it stems from you, what are you like? You see lots of people find that they w they do best when they join a class and they go to the class, it's there every week and th or maybe more than once a week and that keeps them going because they are, they're expected, it's a definite booking, and that's it and they can go that way. Other people would hate that, it's too restricting and er er and again it is, if you think about it, because if you've got a, a regular date and you're retired and something nice and exciting comes up, and that's right in the middle of your, it bashes into your regular date, so then you have to say do I go or do I do or, or don't I? And you can do that, you can go. But you see, I'm finishing my dance group, this year it's doing its final perfor performance at Clarendon College if any of you are interested on May the fourth and fifteenth er er er there. Now I decided, cos I'm the director of it, that we finish this year. There were various factors that came into making this decision but one of the things is I'm heartily sick that I have never been able to go away on holiday in the autumn ever in my life. Cos I was in teaching... so if you know where you were in the autumn, I leave Clarendon College and what do I do? I have to work every Wednesday night, every week and one Sunday a month in the dance school. So I can't go away in the autumn now cos that's just when everybody's start you know raring to go and wanting to get started on next year's programme. So I still haven't been in the autumn, so one of my reasons for finishing is, is so I can go on holiday in the autumn. I go on holiday other times but you know there is a bit, something about the autumn isn't there? Which is a bit different and I'd like to see it, that's just one of my things, but again when you're in, going into retirement I think you've got to think about this, I mean I went, nobody twisted my arm, I went into that situation and I've enjoyed it for a great many years, but now I'm thinking I'd, before I, it's too late I want to have a, a l a fling in autumn as it were. So I'm going to have a, a go at that. Erm but you will be in that position, you may be so dedicated about something that you want to do like I did, I thoroughly enjoyed it it's given me a great deal of pleasure, I've worked with about a hundred different people over the years that have been in my dance group, all ages all personalities, we've worked with some fantastic music which er erm we've had to interpret. Erm we er you know had a situation you so er we've had moments when you get very irritated with one another because what you're trying to do isn't succeeding and because you always blame the other folk. [speaker002:] You keep looking at me then. Thank goodness [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] But er can you see you've got to make up your mind what it is, it's not necessarily going to be easy. And how are you going to live this, this, this er physical activity er again I certainly had plenty of mental through this dance group as well as the physical. [speaker002:] There you go again! [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You shouldn't have then should you? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] You're right. [speaker001:] Er and I might say you're not the only one I've got my eye on. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] on somebody else but er no comment. Erm but again you have got to decide what it is you want out of your retirement because you're the boss and it's no good moaning when you're into your retirement that it doesn't suit you because you've planned it, you've made the decisions and therefore it's up to you to alter whatever you don't like. Now I know that's always dead simple I mean erm one of, one of our directors is a great wine maker isn't he? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Er or is it, it's beer as well I think, he does all the lot. And all his working life his mind was set on when he retired, instead of down doing it, you know, late at night he was going to be able to get up in the morning and do it. And there he was straight away as he retired into the kitchen and setting all his stuff out and his wife walked in, what do you think you're doing? Out of this kitchen! [LAUGHTER] So again can you see [] you have other people to consider if you've partners, but that's one of the difficulties of having a partner, but then again think, if you don't have a partner, that's worse cos you've nobody to communicate with, nobody to shout at, nobody to organize or organize you, er nobody ready made to go out with, you've got it all to do yourself because your number one requirement when you're left on your own is to get the company and the activity, whereas if you, if you are er living with a person then at least a certain amount of that is ready to hand. But again people will say, don't go hand in glove everywhere with one another [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] never, I mean some people go around just like twins don't they? Er that can be bad because if, if only from the point of view that when you get back you've got nothing to talk about because they were there and saw and did it all you see. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And it limits your conversation a bit. Er but again if you er something happens to them you're more in a, you've no other leads to your life and so you're left on your own. Now about getting physical activity, I, I can't say that I can give your a er er a foolproof method because it will depend upon you. And how it fits into your life, I have the feeling that er if I could fix it so that I could do it sort of in the house, by the way, I could, I could do certain things and I could stick to them, and I would see that I'd do them. And er to a certain extent I do that, for instance people pay a lot of money to go and buy what they call boxes, they're quite expensive. And the idea is that you step up and down on those and that's your exercise, well you can do that on the bottom of your stirs for nothing. So the bottom stair is a in most houses they're ideal for doing that. Now the idea behind that is that it builds up and keeps in trim the muscles of the feet and ankles and legs, which is going to be what gets you about because you realize your retirement is going to be as good as your legs. If your legs pack up on you or are difficult then you, it will limit where you can go. Isn't it awful to think your legs decide what your retirement's going to be, but they do, more or less, so that if you th if you think a if you've ever had any trouble with them you'll realize, people say, you know, would you, we're going out for the day, you coming? And immediately if you've got leg trouble it's well where are you going? What will we be doing? Will there be much walking? Will it be up hills. You know and immediately can you see, you've asked him all these questions you can see what a pain in the neck you are to all the people you've asked these questions of. And of course it then, in the end you have to say oh well I'd like to but I don't think my legs are equal to it. So they can be the deciding factor in what your programme's going to be, so it pays to keep them in good trim. Now you can do that on the step, in fact don't go from a house to a bungalow, you give up your best form of exercise, now I know people say ooh well when you get older you can't get up and down. You can get up and down. Who w somebody said you find another way, somebody said that ear earlier on in the talk. When my rheumatoid arthritis was very bad it has been very bad and very chronic, and it still can be some days, erm I had more ways of getting up and down those stairs and I got up and down, but I had to invent ways to do it. Quite interesting I could give you a much gr a greater variety of ways up and down stairs than probably anybody. But there is a way, you can manage you can do it and the important thing is that it's your body that's doing it, that your body that's keeping the exercise going, so that when the actual pain disappears, when you've got rid of the acid, your joints still work and your muscles are still good. And if you don't do that, once you let them go you've had it, so it is very important. And again you see people fa you've got to keep your arms strong, how do you get in and out of the bath at the moment? Don't suppose you've even bothered to think about it. But there will come a time when you may have to think about it. Now how do you do it? [speaker002:] Just stand up and get out. [speaker001:] You just stand up and get out, but h what happens if and when something happens with your legs and you can't do that, how would get out then? [speaker002:] Kneel down, turn around and kneel down. [speaker001:] That would depend upon your knee joints wouldn't it? Can you see? Er now what are you, you're going to pull something, what're you going to pull on with? Feet? Well again, what if they aren't good enough? You see, do you ever, have you ever tried, do you know how you're, how good your muscle power is in your shoulders and arms? Have you ever pulled yourself up with your arms? Put all your weight on your hands and arms. It's no good you see waiting and thinking er and then finding you can't get out and you do need your arms to pull you out, but then if it's no good, be no good if there's no power, they can't do it. And then I know a lot people who now in retirement do not have a bath, because they can't be confident enough at getting out of a bath, so they say oh well I manage with a shower. Now you can manage with a shower, I mean it's, it's efficient as regards er keeping you er clean, but can you, to men there's a different pleasure in having a shower, I enjoy both I would hate to h to be limited to one. But er I, I have to make quite sure that my arms will take my weight, as near as one can. Erm again when I have bad days with these wrists they just give way, and this is not a mental thing at all, I mean I could be holding a, a glass or a cup in my hand or a, a, a dish of something for that matter, and the er the nerves just relax the muscle and out it goes, it's n n I don't know it's going to happen, but it can happen. [speaker002:] Usually with something light not heavy. [speaker001:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Often with something light not heavy. [speaker001:] Oh o oh yes it doesn't have to be something heavy [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] th you er I mean if it were very heavy you'd almost sort of be prepared for it to go, but you know when you're s s standing with a, something quite light, and you might have been standing with it a little while in your hand, and then suddenly the hand goes and can't you see that's ve that's very upsetting, it makes you not very confident. Erm but again you've got to try and think of ways of coping with any difficulties that you've got. It's no good sitting down and moaning and, and being depressed and saying well I won't do that I won't do that. Now how good's your balance? Now we have man er we have illnesses which effect balance of course and your blood pressure's one, how's your blood pressure? Had it taken? We're entitled now you know to have all sorts of things done at the doctors, coming up to the right age to be hav to be done er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] should be okay on that. But there is this centre which is right op on Parliament Street opposite Boots and you can go in there and all these leaflets that I've got come from there, you can get those any time, they also have all the timetables, they also have all, have all the other information and two ladies sitting there, voluntary, er who will phone up and get you any information on any subject that you want. So if you've got any problem of any sort you pop in there. They will do blood pressures Tuesday and Wednesday mornings, there's a nurse there then. Erm lots of information, do, that's very convenient on Parliament Street. Er there's another one at the back of Victoria Centre, it's on the corner it's the new red brick building and that is a much more complicated more where you can go in and have your M O T done. And you can have an M O T certificate, they like you to book for those cos it takes the nurse quite a time to do you. You can walk in any time and get your blood pressure done there. Now it is important that you find out about your blood pressure, because again erm if that is, is rising it's putting your

[speaker001:] advisers, we have known them through the period their firm through the period of time quite a number of... years, and we can federate er er testify to their integrity. And you are an independent body? [John:] That's right, yes. [speaker001:] I'm sure you'll expound without me saying any further. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] So John, [John:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] Over to you. [John:] Thank you.... Erm... right, well we've got the lights down, we'll perhaps er use some of the slides er later, but er if I can just introduce myself by saying that some of you will already know Chris, this is the er nature of our business. Er we are involved er quite heavily in local authority and teachers generally, through unions and through other connections, so erm some of you will have seen us advertised anyway. Er there's the general insurance side which is based in Bournemouth... and you may have had to contact them on previous occasions for quotations for motor and er house insurance, that sort of thing. Now, on erm the er insurance er the, the pensions and life side then that's my particular area, and obviously I'm based in Birmingham for that, although I actually live in Derby. So er I, I b basically go to the office one day a week, that's my admin day, and the rest, I, I tend to work within this area. Er I suppose erm... er the, most of the people I've seen in the last ten years have been people either approaching retirement, planning for retirement or actually at the point of retirement... and er we've obviously looked at this course over a number of years and we try to sort of distil it down to the basics of things that we think are important er and that we think will be useful to you. Erm so I'll start by looking at some of the er factors. Now in this first session I really want to look at the way that er er financial planning will affect you once you, once you retire, it may be that's the sort of area you've not looked at in detail. Well, I find nowadays, people are much better at planning their retirement than they used to be, maybe because people are more aware of the fact th they won't necessarily be teaching till sixty or... that sort of erm age. And er certainly in teaching there's been quite a big change over the last ten years in the way that people perceive retirement. I can say that you know, lots of heads and deputies ten years ago would have said to me well, what is a pen I mean what pension do I get? Do I get one from the state, or is it going to be, yes, where does it come from? And people have actually moved quite a long way in the direction of actually working out their own finances. And erm I think that er will be proved this morning, by the amount of knowledge that you er have between you.... So er if I can just have the lights off at this stage please. [speaker001:] Lights off.... [John:] Thank you.... Focus it in for you.... Right.... Perhaps by er the blinds as well, that might help a bit....... that one's possible at the front.... Right thank you. [speaker001:] I think it's the other one. No it's the other one. [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's all going so smoothly this morning isn't it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Give it a chance, give it a chance. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Right, thanks a lot. So er er you've all participated well so far. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] So er as you can see, there is a FIMBRA logo on there, and that actually refers to the fact that we are regulated under FIMBRA er rules, that's the Financial Intermediaries and Managers Regulatory Authority. Now, don't worry too much about that, because er FIMBRA itself is a fairly new organization, and er it makes mistakes. As you probably read in the quality press, FIMBRA are always being taken to task for er not spotting investment groups that have gone too far, er and er when you get the collapse of something like the Levitt group erm which you'll be aware of perhaps was the er sort of boxing and impresario type route that was taken by the man in the dicky bow. And er I think somebody said to me beware of the man who wears a dicky bow during the day. Er this was [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] a boxing promoter who reckons you should only wear them for er n evenings, obviously. So er that s er that firm collapsed and people lost money and er that's why FIMBRA is there, er to try and protect the... investor. But, er I think a golden rule must be, when you're looking at financial er matters is er make sure you know who you're dealing with. Because if you want to, if you want to beat the system, you can of course. I mean, er FIMBRA can do its regulatory bit, the same as the police can regulate or the, or the government can regulate, but only within certain er parameters, and if somebody really wants to cheat, then they will cheat anyway... and er we've go we're in a very sophisticated position where the directors of B C C I were able to move money from one continent to another and it meant er it looked as if you'd actually got money in three separate areas, but in fact there was only one lot and it was being moved rapidly. Erm... but that sort of thing can always go on... so er I mean as far as you're concerned, are a major broker, are er obviously, obviously a, a reasonable choice in that we are accountable. Any major broker must be in the U K because er er they are exposed to the public view if you like, and if there are any errors or, or deceptions then they're likely to come up very quickly. So erm a golden er rule must be, avoid small operators [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] that type of thing. They may be absolutely fine, and if you're going there for a number of years, you've probably got no er problem with them, but of course the smaller the organization the simpler is, it is for other erm factors to creep in.... Er now, on another topic, I will go back to the idea of regulation later, you'll see that life expectancy is obviously important and er when you're looking at retirement I mean it's always been described as the longest holiday of your life and it certainly is that, and life expectancy is rising all the time, these figures have actually been superseded. So you can actually er say that someone at sixty five will live slightly longer than the figures on the on the board here. These are provided by the actuarial statistics er er er section of the life office, and they're actually very accurate. Erm but erm you'll notice first of all that there is a difference between male and female longevity. Erm we won't go into a discussion about that this morning, but there are lots of reasons why females live longer on average than males. [speaker001:] Can you narrow it down to various professions on the er expectancies? [John:] Oh absolutely yes. [speaker001:] Cos I've heard one. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Well most yes, it may have altered, yes. I mean actuarial erm a lot of it is er er not open to public view of course, life offices have their own views of it. And if you went to General Accident and looked at their actuarial tables, they might be slightly different to other groups, but in that sense [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] you're right. There are risk factors involved. [speaker001:] For erm head teachers, if you retire at sixty, you can have fourteen, sixty five you've got one.... [John:] Right, yes. That's er for head teachers, yeah. I remember a, I remember er an A H T came out with some figures five years ago which may have prompted some early retirements then. Er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Doesn't seem you've got too long once you've finished. Er and I mean er a lot of that's perhaps the release of stress, so that you know you've been under pressure for a long time and then you, you take that away, and it may actually be detrimental to but er it doesn't, obviously the figures are a little bit odd. If you, if you look at the figures er for that male age fifty, and add on the twenty three, that's seventy three. But if you look at the sixty five and add on the twelve, it's er seventy seven and of course if you go on to the actuarial figures actually get better as you get older in terms of actual lifespan. So that if you've been really rough, and you're ninety nine, you can look at the figures and you've still got nearly four years left. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] But don't forget these are, these are actuarial averages, and er we, you know the thing about beating the system this is often down to your input as well. You know, whether you're relaxed, whether you're from a long lived family... so on and so forth. I am not here to discuss that now, but I mean it's just to make sure that you know that things aren't planned for five years or ten years, but possibly for a lot longer than that. Cos the we er did get people contacting the office to say I've got a lump sum, I'd like to put it somewhere for a couple of years, and er we always wondered why they're thinking of a couple of years. Are they going to spend it suddenly in er two years time, or are they expecting not to be around in two years time? So I mean think about it as long term planning, and certainly for those under er sixty... the long term becomes extremely long term because er you know you're looking at perhaps a third of your life er which is er still to be accounted for.... Er so these er are er the state pension arrangements, and you've had a speaker on state pensions anyway. I think these have got to be slightly updated with a new er with the new rates that have come through, cos that was right on six four ninety two. We haven't updated the slide yet. But the main thing is i it starts at sixty for women, sixty five for men, and of course that's erm important when you come to erm planning, because er if you've got er a male retiring at say fifty eight, he's actually got seven years to go before he, he draws state pension. And for a female it may be possible that she's not going to get a full pension anyway, she may have er had time out, not paid contributions right the way through etcetera. So a lot of the target planning I suppose that we've come across is people saying well when I retire, I shall actually go down to half salary at best, that's assuming th that you've actually made half, about half salary on your pension being forty eightieths or whatever. You've still got a fair gap to make up between that and your salary.... And er with that in mind, it's possible that people do want to top up their income, because the one thing I will stress to you is that you don't want to have to start having to back-pedal er when you retire. You don't want to have things erm at a lesser level than you er started with. So when you're planning your retirement, make sure that you give yourself a reasonable standard of living in terms of income. Er it's no good saying you'll turn down the central heating and you'll only take one holiday instead of two, that's not really the purpose of retirement, and I think you've got to be objective about what you're doing with this. Er you'll find that we do have actually have a calculator which we can send out with a retirement pack and that actually gives you an aide-memoire to actually remind you about the things that you might forget... erm with regard to erm things like er holidays er erm say, medical expenses, er fuel expenses, erm club fees, T V licence, all those things. If you've not done that exercise yet, it's quite a useful one to find out what figures you come up with. And er that will give you an objective starting point for what you actually need. Cos what you actually need isn't just your monthly figure, is it? It is the er sort of er five hundred pounds that goes out your bank account on direct debits, it's all the other incidentals during the year, and even er you know gifts for children, pets in the case of some people, if you've got er large dogs or whatever, then you know there's vet's bills, food, etcetera, that you know, is probably incidental at the moment, but not when you retire. So try and do that as objectively as you can, and don't forget if you've got a partner, do it together because we, I do get these won these reply slips back, and you can often tell who's filled it in. Especially if under clothing it's got fifty quid, you can assume it's the chap [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] er who's probably thinking well I do need some new boots for the garden, but er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] but er... if you put it in together you come up with a more realistic erm assessment. These things alter amazingly you know, I mean it's incredible that the, the sort of and yet that they both work. If you get somebody putting six hundred pounds for holidays, I'll be thinking mhm you know, they're not going to be able to do a lot on six hundred pounds a year, but when I actually get to talk to them I find they've got a caravan, and a friend who's got a site in North er er in North Yorkshire. And actually that's quite a good budget to do sort of er four or five weeks er you know caravanning a year. And yet somebody else might have three or four thousand down, and that's because they're jetting off to er foreign climes a few times a year. So it's all down to individuals, and that's why it's important for you to do your own budgeting exercise. And of course if you're finding that there's a shortfall there, then you've got to try and look at your you know assets, your lump sum etcetera, as a way of, of erm er trying to cover that shortfall.... Erm, right. So, on the tax area, first of all you've got to consider whether you're a non-taxpayer, a basic rate taxpayer, or a high rate taxpayer. Well as you know er to be a basic rate taxpayer, you're paying twenty five pence in the pound, apart from the er the new rate you know the first two thousand five hundred you get at twenty percent, which came in at the last budget. Higher, higher rate, rate, well you don't start to pay that until you've exceeded the twenty three thousand seven hundred plus your personal allowance, so y you your basic rate of tax goes to twenty three seven hundred then you can add, add on your basic allowance, and for most people if they're earning er a single person twenty seven and a half and married person twenty eight and a half above that you're paying higher rate tax.... And er of course in retirement, it's unlikely that anybody will be paying higher rate tax, unless you've been very lucky on your pension provision. Er but erm the fact is i if you're a non-taxpayer, obviously we've got to take a different view of the way you that you might invest money. That's not unusual, because I quite often find that one partner's not working and therefore they're not using up their tax allowance so at retirement or before, I can move money into their name, and there are good reasons for doing that. Erm... you notice here that the amount is, didn't alter in the last budget. Erm so erm what I'll do is just indicate the amounts as they stand. Now, obviously this is three four four five, and that's allo that's available to each person, so if it's a married couple, they'll each get that amount, then there's a married couple's allowance, which is worth seventeen twenty, and that can be moved either to the male or the female or split... er under the regulations as they stand. Obviously normally the high rate, the higher wage earner would have that er erm er allowance. So that would make erm er five one six five as a married man's or a married couple's allowance as it's now called, plus the three four four five. So actually it's quite generous in terms of what you can earn before you actually pay tax. Don't forget you don't pay any tax till you get above that level. You'll notice at sixty five that the allowances go up, and the er by getting to sixty five you're rewarded by a larger personal allowance and a larger married couple's allowance, but that starts to be abated at fourteen thousand two hundred. Er, which used to be a problem up until about three or four years ago when independent taxation came in in nineteen ninety. Now, independent taxation means that th that you've both got an allowance of fourteen thousand two hundred before age allowance is abated, but for teachers who're you know retired early, er some years ago, and they perhaps got a pension for themselves, a pension for their wife, then obviously when they got to sixty five, quite ou because it was calculated as a, as er one total, it actually abated their allowance quickly. Now, by some manoeuvring on this, you can often get the income to sort of fit both sides if you like, you know by putting income to each side, you can avoid losing your age allowance. Now once you get to fourteen thousand two hundred, your age allowance is abated, [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] one pound for every two over the limit, and you're abated back to this level of allowance. Er, but it's worth er you know manoeuvring a little bit on that if you can. Erm if I could just stop there for a couple of minutes to... er make a point about... er independent taxation. Erm if we've got erm er a couple say age sixty, and they've got their personal allowances er as, as usual, er let's assume that the male's retired and he's getting an income of five thousand two hundred, let's just suppose. So we know that his er his five one six five allowance is fully used, in other words his, his tax allowance is fully used. Er in fact erm it could be perhaps plus some investment income as well, let's say that his wife though, er she, he's go he's got the erm five one six five allowance, so he's going to pay tax on whatever else he earns in other words. If say the female has got an income of only er two thousand a year, she's got er an unused allowance of fourteen forty five, in other words, erm that er three four four five allowance isn't being used now, I mean if we put ten thousand into his name, erm we would er suffer tax at erm say twenty five percent on most of it. Er so er let's say that the ten percent rate applies, er mind you ten percent is a long way from where we are now, but it makes the figures easy to look at, so... er let's say that he's getting ten percent gross on his return on a building society, he'd actually get seven and a half percent net, er so on his ten thousand he's going to earn seven fifty.... Okay? So that's his ten thousand investment income, well that's fine, you know, no problem, and there is a marginal rate here which you could in fact reclaim a bit of tax on twenty percent. But what happens if he gives it to his wife? Well er firstly, he can, even if it's his money give it to his wife as his partner, and she could then invest the money, and because she's not paying any tax, er she could get a ten percent return, so she could actually get a thousand pounds on that ten thousand and that would be payable gross. So immediately they've made two hundred and fifty pounds a year er bonus by having the wife's er name on the account. Now, the way that er gross accounts work is erm er fairly straightforward. You've got a form R eighty five which is available for bank and building society investors, and if you've got er a gross account then er you, you have to agree with the revenue that you are not going to be a taxpayer in the year that you take out the er R eighty five. It's no good if you think you might drop into tax later, [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] avoid doing it because the revenue are checking one in twenty cases, and if you've got a partner who's likely to pay, not to pay tax, that's fine, if they are likely to roll over into tax, then don't use an R eighty five. The simple way there as you've probably been told by your tax officer here is just to reclaim it at the end of the tax year. You know if you've got any un a balance that you can reclaim, then do it then. Er there are other ways of getting gross income, obviously. And er one of the ways you can use is er National Savings Income Bonds, er which are er okay, but they're, the trouble is they're at a variable rate, so at the moment they're paying seven percent, so that's on National Savings Income Bonds, so that that person would get seven hundred a year at the moment gross, and of course er you don't need to t to fill in an R eighty five for that type of investment because it's not a bank or building society account. Erm the problem is that people who were in this account two years ago were earning thirteen and a half percent, well say eighteen months ago. And of course with the reduction in the erm er interest rates, then those have come down quite steeply. So it's a bit frightening when you think a pensioner's money may have been in that account at thirteen fifty on a, on ten thousand invested, and now they're down to seven hundred. If that was paying some important bills they'd be struggling. And er I can remember several cases years ag you know so going back two or three years where people were debating with me why didn't I put more into National Savings? Cos I was using that issue at that time, but we always make the proviso that if things change, you may have to alter your mind about where your money's placed. Because obviously it's linked to U K interest rates, and therefore you suffer whatever goes on there. It's not all negative, of course, I mean the fact is we've got low underlying inflation at the moment, and that means that i a seven percent return and if the inflation rate's less than three, you're actually, it's, it's really reasonably profitable. But of course profit's one thing, and income's another thing, and I think the problem with most er forms of income type investment is that we spend it, it's not a problem it's just, it just happens. But when you spend it when you're spending your income you're not accumulating your capital, so this person in five years time, although they've had their income which may vary between seven and thirteen percent, their ten thousand is still ten thousand pounds, and obviously that would have devalued in real terms against inflation, which is the other problem. So the point I'm trying to make is that you can't rely on one product to do the whole job. Th f for a tax plan, that's what I'm on at the moment, and, and, and that's a useful er device. Erm so think about if you've got a non-working partner or somebody on a low income to spread the money er so that you, has anybody already done this er you know prior to retirement?... Yes, er perhaps one or two. Yes. I mean I er i it's more well known than it used to be. But where it isn't well known is the people who ought to know, and that's the pensioners, you know th perhaps er your er parents, people er older than yourselves who are drawing state pension, and er the advertising seems to have gone astray. Cos there's millions and millions of pounds that the revenue have got rushing about which should have been repaid to er investors. Er and of course it's people like erm my mother and father who never look at er things like that unless I actually point it out, they won't actually know that they're allowed to reclaim tax. You know, particularly, you know the female may have only a state pension you know the part state pension nothing else coming in, and a lot of these accounts are still net, not gross, so the revenue have got money to give away, and they're quite happy to do that providi providing that people tap them on the shoulder. So if you've got any elderly er relatives or people who want, or who you think may, the trouble is with relatives, they always think you're interfering, this is a snag. You ask about money and wonder why. Erm but erm that's a, a very important point and er just remember that you have actually given the money to the other partner, technically in terms of tax anyway, and er that er can, can have an affect on things. Because I gave my wife some money obviously because I pay tax, she doesn't she's at home with the children, she didn't seem to object funnily enough, you know I said I'll move this money over to you. And then [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] you know you can invest this and we'll have a building society account we'll have a gross account. Yeah fine, fine. So anyway er I mean being a keen motorcyclist I borrowed a Moto Guzzi last year, you know a big V twin, beautiful bike, I went up into Derbyshire and had a you know ride on it, and thought well that's not bad, see I've always had British bikes, and I think I might g I might get one of those, so I came back in the house put the helmet down and said hey that Guzzi's not bad, I could get a decent one for about two thousand you know about nineteen eighty, you know nice Le Mans Two. And she said oh yeah, where are you getting the money from? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I said well, you know, out of the, out of the Bradford and Bingley. She says that's my account. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I said but yeah I know, I gave you the money for tax purposes. She says well, she says, that garage is in a hell of a mess you know, and that Norton standing there doing nothing. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So erm... have a problem trying to get it back. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] That's right, yeah so I eventually managed it, but it took some negotiating. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Do you have to give the capital sum to create this income, or is there ways of... income from a... set sum of money to the other person? [John:] No. No, er not really. The revenue want it paid into an account in your name or a joint account. They [speaker001:] Yes, but can that just be the income, or has it to be the whole capital? [John:] Er, no the whole, the whole capital should be held by you, and paid to you or your or i in, in a case of a joint er couple because er once it's paid out, it would become the tax it would become the t the taxable interest of whoever received it. So really erm er you'd have to be a bit careful if you were doing that, and er I think the revenue would be pretty iffy about you holding money and paying it to a third party. Were you thinking about a child who could own er [speaker001:] No, I just I just question. You know I the... splitting of... income [John:] Mhm.... [speaker001:] between spouse, two spouses erm [John:] It doesn't matter [speaker001:] to transfer the lump sum so that that income goes to the one with the. [John:] No no, not really, not, not between not between a married couple no. No. But I mean obviously er the er [speaker001:] Or can you just put the income across? [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] So you know four thousand. [John:] You can. You can, but I'd still advise it goes to a joint account... rather than to er another person's account. Because I think the er the you know the revenue would think it was a bit odd that somebody else owned the money, and you paid the income to another party. [speaker001:] Right, that's what I'm asking. How do, what's the method with it. Do you have a joint account for the, for the [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] lump sum, interest accum accumulated goes to the joint account [John:] Right. [speaker001:] and is then split between the two? [John:] Yes well er if it's a joint account and the income's i i if it's a joint account and the income's generated from that account, then er it will be er treated as one going to the taxpayer, er you know, half of it going to the taxpayer, half of it going to the non-taxpayer. If it's the non-taxpayer owns the account in that case, then she can pay the whole of that thousand pounds into a joint account for them both, and they can both use the income, the revenue aren't going to b bother about where the money's gone, providing that it's received by the person who owns the investment. I think that that's the key to it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] That so somewhere in i in between you've got to be receiving the income that you generate. Otherwise passing it on to a third party, but you're not in the case of a married couple. Obviously the point is that y y it's still within the, the er bounds of the er couple itself. If that's. [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] But if you set it up jointly, you can't direct all the gross income if that's what you're thinking you can't say well I'll have all that income gross cos my wife's got an unused allowance, you've got to split it down the middle... in the case of a joint account. So generally to make it, to make it straightforward, I tend to er differentiate, so that I've got some in the ta the non-taxpayer's name up to the limit, and then a joint account perhaps which will be usable by both of them er for instant access, that type of thing. Er I'll, I'll perhaps go back to that later, cos it does come into the way that money splits. [speaker001:] When you say joint account, do you mean building society? [John:] Yes. Er, a building society or bank account, yes. Joint account. [speaker001:] Well er, a building society, I don't know whether people realize, but there are limits to the amount of protection you get on large sums of money. [John:] Yes. Yes. I will actually l er go into that. I'll, I'll cover it now. Thank you for mentioning it. [speaker001:] say, if you've got thirty thousand in, you'll only get protection on [John:] Twenty. It's the first twenty. yes, under the Building Society Protection Act, if the society fails, you're protected up to twenty thousand, and you'll get eighteen thousand back, there's a ninety percent protection, provided they're members of the Building Society Association, which all are, er virtually, even down to things like the Clay Cross and the Staffordshire Railway, they're all members of the Building Society Association, so they're all covered. Er but if you have a joint account, you're actually covered erm to forty thousand, because i it would be seen as two separate accounts, so that each hold twenty. Er, so that's okay to an extent, but obviously we've got an approved list of building societies and banks, which we never used to have, but we've realized that er since B C C I p particularly and the housing market as bad as it is, there are some building societies and banks who may be in difficulties, and if they go down erm then they may not be taken over. Because y don't forget that in the past, building societies have always been taken over by you know, sort of friendly merger. But the Halifax said last year that they wouldn't take on any wounded soldiers, so that if er a society went to the wall and its debts were bad, then nobody may step in to s to actually erm erm... solve the problem if you like. Er so don't, don't do, quite correct to say beware of putting too much er of your money in one area, and er even with building societies it's risky. But er if you stick to the sort of er top ten, you know the sort of Alliance and Leicester, the Leeds Permanent, the Halifax, the erm the sort of Nationwides, then you're unlikely to get into difficulties. I think where people are more at risk is where they've gone for TESSAs in th er you know that's the tax-exempt savings plan, and they've chased the rate through the papers you know the erm and they see that the s the Wolverhampton Building Society or the Tipton and [speaker001:] Cheltenham and Gloucester, is offering higher rates. [John:] Yes, but C and G are actually very good er very sound er on their er ratios, they're pretty good, but erm some of them aren't so good, and you know, be careful when you're coming to invest in building societies I'd stick to the major players at the moment, even though you may get a premium by going to a smaller society. Because the smaller societies often f charge more for their loans and give more erm to the erm to the investor. But of course erm you know the erm the smaller the society, the more risk there is in terms of solvency. Generally speaking. So erm it is worth mentioning. Erm and banks incidentally, your protection is seventy five percent of the first twenty thousand, er which is where that B C C I figure came from, do you remember all that thing about fifteen thousand is your return? Well, you'd have got fifteen thousand whether you'd got twenty thousand in there or two hundred thousand. That was the basically the problem... and people weren't aware of that at the time. Er, so again it's a matter of security, and so if you've got lots of money in one area, better to move it about. Building societies are a bit naughty in that they're regularly advertising rates at over fifty thousand pounds, the Loughborough do it for one, in er my local paper. And I pick it up and it says Loughborough Building Society and you can see about half a percent er premium rate on fifty thousand pounds, and you think that might be worth going for, for, for somebody who's got a lot of capital, but is it really, because if you've got fifty thousand in there, you are at risk. And I can just remember what John Major said about the local authorities who'd er got into B C C I. He said the extra half percent was actually er a risk return, of course you know it wasn't explained perhaps as well. You know, local authorities aren't expert in looking at company law, and the way that finances work. So I think people got caught out quite badly at that, at that point. Erm, I think we all got to trust building societies and banks, and we still can, providing you know the limits and er and er the constraints upon er upon those financial institutions. I mean I can't see the government allowing a building society to actually get into erm er a case of insolvency, I think it, the, the, I think the Building Society Association would force a merger, but it may be on very poor terms or er you know, whatever. But hopefully er we're past the bottom of that loop. [speaker001:] J Just one last thing. Th I, I thought I had it clear, and now I'm slightly confused as a result of an answer that you gave, and I'm not quite clear again. If I invest part of my lump sum in my wife's name [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] er so we can take, take up her full allowance [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] sh she will [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] be able in fact to take all that. And suppose okay well let's imagine just for a minute that she gets three four four five as, as interest [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] take. Now, the, the interest, that three four four five [John:] Mhm. [speaker001:] the account into which it's paid, does that account into which the three four four five interest is paid, does that have to be in my wife's name, or does it have to be a joint [John:] No, it can be in joint names. [speaker001:] But, but sh that is still allowed then is it? If it's i I mean [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] I thought you see it would have to be in her name, because she has [John:] No, not necessarily. [speaker001:] to be in receipt of that income as far as [John:] Yes, but then when that income's paid in, half of the income's taxable when it's assessed for you, and half would be paid gross to your wife, you know it's a diff it's a different, it's a different er [speaker001:] Yes, this is where I'm confused, if you want to take up Can I just a minute, because I've got the same feeling. And I think what Bob is saying, there is only one account, but you'll have to endow two accounts, one that is giving rise to interest in the wife's name, Yes. which is taxable Yes. on her if she's liable Yes. but the interest is then paid into another account which is in joint names. Yeah. [John:] Yeah,tha that's if you want to use the income of course. It doesn't have to be. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] It can be reinve it can be reinvested in the same. [speaker001:] Yeah, I understand that bit. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] It was the question of making sure that we didn't pay tax on any of that three four four five. [John:] Well, [speaker001:] I thought that if it went into a joint account, I had to pay tax on half of three four four five. [John:] You would, you would, you would. But, but if we've used up her allowances er i you know it i if you want to keep it separate, if it's simpler separate that's okay [speaker001:] Right. [John:] If you're near the limit, then it's probably worth it, [speaker001:] Right. [John:] you know to keep it separate. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] I mean, some people want it for income, so if they want that sort of fifteen hundred pounds coming in, and they both want access to it, I'm quite happy to pay it into a joint account, providing it doesn't actually give them a tax problem, in [speaker001:] Right. [John:] other words, if half the interest is er is erm deemed to be the male's and therefore taxable, if it's a working account, it's never likely to get much interest on it anyway, [speaker001:] No. [John:] cos the money will come in and go out. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Is, is that better? [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tha that's after it's met the tax liability or not? [John:] That's right. [speaker001:] When it goes into the joint account. [John:] Yes. Yes. [speaker001:] It originally arose through the wife's account, and was covered by her allowances, and then the interest was then paid into a joint account Yeah. And then only half of that... was the wife's Yeah. By that time she'd absorbed all her allowances, therefore it didn't matter whether she'd [John:] That's right. That's right. I mean you've got to be careful at the end of the tax year that you're actually okay on that ground, er but, and you can make a declaration to the revenue if you're over the limit, it's just that I mentioned that because some people like a joint account for it to be received into so that they can both spend it basically. Cos I mean I'm, I quite often use that as spendable income, because if I allow it to accumulate in a gross account, in a year or two it's actually gone beyond the [speaker001:] Right. [John:] the personal allowance. [speaker001:] Yeah, right. [John:] And that can make you a problem. You've just got to keep an eye on that.... Er right so... er capital gains tax. Now, this is a tax which hopefully won't affect that many of you here, but it is, it is agai a tax nevertheless. And er its er main exemptions are er on er owner occupied homes, private cars, life assurance policies,, gilts etcetera. But erm most of the things that you will be de now the thing is about properties, that if you've got a second property for example, or erm you know that's not your primary residence, you would be liable to capital gain on a disposal, so if you'd bought the house for ten thousand and you sold it five years later for twenty, then the gain er on that would be the twenty er the ten thousand that you'd gained, less any indexation from nineteen eighty two, and they would then er er look at that as an allowance to use against it. So your first five thousand eight hundred would be used against it, and then any e excess over that would be added to your tax bill in that year, in other words it would be assessed as income in that year. Don't forget that you've got an allowance each, and it's not likely to affect many people, except where you've perhaps been left something that you want to dispose of or a property that you want to dispose of, in which case there could be a capital gains liability. But don't remem don't forget that you've each got an allowance of five thousand eight hundred, so something jointly owned, you've actually got a double allowance, and you get that allowance year, so if you've got say an er a liability for shares of ten thousand pounds, let's say, that's your capital gains calculated liability, you can do five thousand in the first year, and five thousand in the second year, and that will keep you below your capital gains tax allowance. Yes? [speaker001:] Erm, you mentioned property? Erm your parents' . [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Is it therefore better for er a, a parent our parents, our parents to give as a gift the house to both people in order to claim both allowances? [John:] Yes. And there is a little wrinkle there as well, and th if, if they, if your parents are allowed to live there rent free, even though you own the house, you won't be liable to capital gains on disposal, er if they, if they actually pass the ownership of the house to you while they're alive, and then you continue to let them live rent free, as I understand it, you w there would be no capital gains liability on disposal. [speaker001:] Is, does that seven years? [John:] No, no. That's inheritance tax, that's a different er a different er matter really. Er this is capital gains which is a different type of tax. So it's just one of those things that you should know. I mean, capital gains is liable to er a yearly review, you know, you've an allowance for each year, and the capital gain is on the property on the value of the property from the time it was purchased to the time it was disposed. Er, whereas erm inheritance tax is an allowance which is given once and I'll explain what that is. But as far as that's concerned, er I mean the, the house can be passed over to you, and would then become, er you would own the house but er unless you dispose of it, there'd be no liability to a gain, and er of course, at that time er if your parents in it rent free at the time of their er leaving the house, then you could then dispose of that without erm erm er liability. [speaker001:] Would that assume your parents are actually living when they gift it to you? [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] And it becomes inheritance tax then if they die and leave it to you in their will? [John:] Right. Right. Yes. Er th but don't forget that, that if they make the transfer, if they give the house to you, is that what you mean, yes? There would be a seven year rule on that. [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] Yes, sorry, yes, that would be a potentially exempt transfer. Yes. Erm so that's true, that if they give you the house, it is, it is an inheritance tax problem as well. Er so looking at inheritance tax, er the house the estate the car, capital etcetera all count towards it. Having a will will help. And with the current allowance of one hundred and fifty thousand pounds er is reasonably good, in that if you have a property worth say seventy or eighty thousand and then you've got assets of worth perhaps forty to fifty thousand, you'll still be under the limit. Now, it's not your problem. Inheritance tax is not your problem, it's your children's problem. So er I mean you can actually say to your children, well okay you know if I, we die tomorrow in a road accident, there'd be a liability to tax, erm and say the estate's worth two hundred thousand, then fifty thousand would be liable to tax at forty pence in the pound, so there'd be twenty thousand pound debt to pay to the revenue. Now that twenty thousand pounds can be paid er it has to be paid before probate is granted. So there'd be delay in probate unless the children have got the money, so they have to borrow against the property or they have to raise money to pay the bill. So erm you can actually get round that by erm either reducing the estate, which is the simplest way of doing it, so one thing you can do is spend your money, which isn't a problem is it? If you hundred and fifty thousand. And er fo for that reason, er you know, Lady got through three fortunes, and I think she di died with a few hundred pounds in the building society, and if you get the timing right, that's the way to do it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Because er I mean a lot of children these days, I think about my parents, it's their money, they spend it, and I don't really see that it's important for it to be passed on to us, but in the case of a large estate, it becomes more important, if you're looking at sort of two hundred three hundred thousand estate, then there's going to be a lot of erm er asset value which would be taxable. Er now you can make er you can make disposals in your lifetime obviously, you can make small gifts, you can make disposals up to three thousand pounds a year, which is your annual, your exemption if you like, and then anything over that is liable to the seven year rule, if you die within seven years of making the transfer, then there is a, there is a erm declining debt, er tax-wise. But erm don't forget that all these things are erm a little bit dodgy at your ages, I don't think you should be making big transfers at this stage, simply because you may need the money. If we go back to that first, second slide, if you're still alive in thirty years time, you may actually want the money that you've gifted to people ten years ago, and erm that's the problem you've got. So I don't think I should be saying, if I was working as an advisor on your behalf, I don't think you should be making big transfers at this stage, because it's always dodgy. I mean you may need to recall that capital later. If you needed a non-urgent operation say a hip replacement or something, and you didn't want to go into your own savings er you know then you've obviously given away part of your assets. There are other ways round it, as you can imagine. And there's a lo there's a whole industry built up about inheritance tax planning where you actually write something in trust for your dependents, and er that's simple in that if you're in good health now, you can write say a twenty thousand pounds inheritance tax cover, under trust for your children so that's paid outside the estate, it doesn't make the matters worse, and mo most conveniently at retirement it's simple to do because you might pay it on an annual premium or a regular monthly premium, and it might cost you twenty or thirty pounds a month, but at least you can forget it then. You've made some provision for your children it's written in absolute trust for their benefit. On your death, the money is paid directly to the children, they can then pay the inhe inheritance tax bill, and everything's hunky-dory. Er but of course you've got to fund that yourself, or at least that's what most people think. Er but in our London office, apparently they do a lot of inheritance tax planning because of the size of estates, and they actually invite the children in, and say to the children look, you know, if erm you die, the estate will be devalued by forty thousand because of tax, er if you want to make provision the, the er the contract is still written on the erm, the erm individuals' lives, but it can then be erm... paid by the children, so your children can then pay the premiums. The only technical difficulty is that it's difficult in a family where there's two children perhaps one's... well off and can pay, and the other can't, so you you've got technical problems there. But there that, that's one of the routes they can use. Another one that you might consider is joint tenancy in common. Has anybody looked at that?... Er joint tenancy in common, this is where [speaker001:] Somebody did mention it John. [John:] Oh did he? Oh right. But don't forget there are, there are er technical erm difficulties with that as well in some circumstances, and joint tenancy in common er you've got to look carefully at before you make any decisions. That's giving away half the estate er half the house value on the first er death. So you just be a bit careful on that one.... Erm right, so passing on then, er are you a cautious or adventurous investor? What is your tax rate? Erm, do you want income or capital growth or both? Well for most people erm I mean they say to me, I don't want to be the richest man at Millford Hill, in other words I don't want to save in retirement indefinitely, but you are intending some capital growth as well, cos if you don't have capital growth, you don't protect your investment. Are you cautious or adventurous? I can usually tell by when I when I'm doing a fact-find reply obviously you find out whether their erm position is, is erm simply building society or national savings investment, or whether they've gone into shares or unit trusts or investment trusts, and you can see at what level they're operating and of course if they've still got their money under the bed, then [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I refer them to Ken Dodd in Knotty Ash who's got a specialist company on that behalf. So [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] erm... so cautious or adventurous, I think most people don't, I mean I've got adventurous on my form but it never gets ticked, because nobody's adventurous when they retire. I mean the time for you being adventurous was earlier, and I mean when you retire you've got to think about capital er protection as well. Er it's okay to say, yes three or four thousand I'll play about with and I think Japan'll be good for the next five years, that's a different matter, but if you're dependent on something for income and security, then you can't really take a risk profile on, on, on your money. Course erm I guess we deal a lot with British Telecom, and er and erm er Plessey and people like that, er well, G E C now. They erm they tend to perhaps have a different attitude if they've been given company shares, because they're handled shares er fairly regularly, and that's a different matter, erm I mean erm are there many people here who have privatized issues? Ha has anybody got as far as British Telecom shares, or British Gas, or electricity? Yeah, so I should think quite a few. I mean I've filled in a few forms for them but I mean probably you're a passive owner like me in the sense that I don't go and actively trade them, er I keep them in a long term investment, and that's it. So er shares are relatively high risk, ad obviously your tax rate's important as well. So that's the first consideration when I'm looking at somebody's investments, how do they view their own investment strategy?... Erm consideration two. Your home, staying or moving, any debts other than a mortgage, should you pay off your mortgage. Anybody got that question, anybody like to consider that one? Yes? Well you see mortgages are a, a, a pretty dodgy subject really because you've got so many er different er er variables on a mortgage, but the m but the basic erm pattern of mortgages is that if we've got a ten thousand pound loan over ten over say twenty years,... so that's twenty years there. And this is what's called a repayment er type profile. What you actually do is you pay off the loan gradually over that peri period of twenty years, so you get from that point to that point and it's, it's sort of level to start with, you're paying mainly interest off and not much capital, so when you get a statement from the building society, you still seem to owe virtually the same that you started with. And then in the last sort of seven to eight years, it starts to decline quite rapidly because you're actually paying off the capital at that stage, and th that's where I may meet somebody at say fifteen years, they thought their mortgage would run to age sixty five and they actually retire at sixty, they've got five years left and they're about there. And the question normally is well, do I pay it off or not? Well, erm a lot of your tax relief under the MIRAS system, which you're aware it gives you tax relief at source up to thirty thousand, has been absorbed up here, that's where most of your tax relief is, so down here the tax relief on the capital element is nil, and of, it's only, if it's only about three thousand outstanding, I might say, well, get rid of that, you know, just, just erm er cash it, and then you've got the l you c can forget your mortgage commitment altogether. You won't make a lot of difference. Cos I do find people with repayment mortgages actually erm er a lot of them pay over the odds, so they might be paying seventy or eighty pounds a month anyway to clear the mortgage, so mentally they've already made their decision to actually accelerate the payments on it. Erm so that's one thing to bear in mind. Erm on the other hand if you've got ten thousand on a, an endowment basis, this is a different matter. Now an endowment is obviously based on a principle of interest only on l loan, so over the same term, of twenty years, you've only ever paid interest off the loan and you still owe th a after twenty years, you'd still owe the building society ten thousand pounds. Er most people, well quite a few people will have an endowment mortgage, is that right? Yes. Now what happens here is that erm normally, you'll have a, a... er an endowment attached which erm has got a sum assured and that sum assured may be about six thousand say, and onto that are added bonuses. And those bonuses [speaker001:] [sneeze] [John:] each year can't be taken away once they're added. And er again, when we get to year fifteen, I get one or two clients who say to me well actually the Norwich have just sent me a bonus record through and I've actually got nine thousand in the pot already, I think I'll pay the mortgage off. Er now of course erm that would be a pretty dodgy thing to do because of er the way the Norwich work their bonuses. And er most of you will be aware that, where does most of your money come from on an endowment? [speaker001:] Terminal. [John:] Terminal. Right. And Norwich would be delighted if you cashed early, because that means that their pool, their, their main fund is not at is not going to have to pay you any terminal bonus. So they'll only as attached and your sum assured, and thank you very much. Because your bonus is really a, used to be around about five percent but if you look at them now, they've restructured them, which means they've reduced them. Always read restructured as reduced, erm so that you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] you've got erm three, three and a half percent say per annum, er plus erm a superbonus which is perhaps five percent of additional bonuses, so it looks better but it isn't really. But I mean basically that sort of contract you want to complete. Even if you decide at the end of the day that you're not bothered about the MIRAS tax relief, you want to see the back of this loan, keep your endowment running, because that's where the real meat of the contract is. And erm although there's been sort of all sorts of stuff in the press, have you seen all this stuff in the press about endowments? It's ridiculous. I mean over the last two years it's been shock horror headlines, you know, will endowments fail to repay the loan, are endowments good value and I ke some of the journalists I've read bef over the last two years have actually completely reversed what they said t two years ago when P E Ps were declining because of poor share markets and bonuses were coming through quite nicely on the endowments, they said oh endowments are the thing to do. That's what you want, a decent endowment, it takes out all the fluctuations, and er the they've big reserves, and of course the minute the endowment starts to look a bit poorer, it's switch back to P E Ps, course I've always said that P E Ps were a good idea, and the charges are much better now than they were, and I'm just thinking of the poor chap that's read the paper two years ago, over his tea and toast on a Sunday and thought mhm good idea, I'll take an endowment, and two years later it's the same person saying aha, no, pretty bad news an endowment. I mean as usual with financial journalism, er i it's somewhere in between, I mean endowments are having a bad run at the moment and that's because they've paid out such excellent bonuses in the past so if you've had a maturity in the last four or five years, you'll have seen how good they are. But they can't [tape change]... matter. In other words, er they weren't trying to sort of scrape it together to actually repay your, repay your twelve thousand pound wh loan at the end of twenty years. They would actually give you a fairly good sum assured. Now what's happened the problem would be for your children, who are faced with erm building societies and banks who are red hot to sell endowments because of the better commission value to the company, and the, the endowments to make them competitive have actually been structured so that it's the minimum premium, the minimum possible premium. And that means the minimum possible return. So even at ten and a half percent rejection, if you look at the latest figures, it costs you thirty pounds a month for an Eagle Star low-cost super super-duper endowment, but at the end you're only going to replace your money, if you've got erm the ten and a half growth rate, ten and a half percent, which is unlikely i in current circumstances. So if you've got children looking at mortgages, just tell them to be careful... and that I think really my advice would be to, for anyone starting off a new mortgage now, to definitely go for repayment, until they've sorted out what they're doing, because if you cash an endowment within two years, if you can't keep up the payments, if you lose your job, then y you get nothing back. So you could have paid a company five hundred, six hundred pounds, and have no surrender value whatsoever, in the first two years, cos they'll take their charges out on a twenty year, a twenty five year contract. So to my mind, er the, the people dare dance should have been yourselves er I mean some years ago where your jobs are very secure, you knew that you were likely to see the end of the term in e e employed. That's a different proposition. But er I, unfortunately they are sold as er a sort of er a sort of a major positive factor in house buying. And I mean I know the screens are flickering in the Halifax and the Bradford and Bingley e even as we speak, and they do this fabulous analysis, you know you can see that to, to go for the repayment is not as efficient as the endowment, but it's all a theoretical exercise. And... I think for youngsters it's much better to have a repayment and then maybe change it later on to, to a savings type mortgage. Erm but er that's a bit of an aside,th I think I think it's important because I think the old, the old style endowments were much stronger. The other thing is, you're probably getting L A P R, that's life assurance premium relief, on any contracts that were taken out prior to nineteen eighty four. And L A P R is half of the current tax rate, so you'll be earning twelve and a half percent on your, has anyo any pre-eighty four contracts? Right. Don't forget that if you alter your pre-eighty four, you lose your tax advantage. [speaker001:] March I think it was. [John:] Sorry? [speaker001:] March eighty four. [John:] March eighty four, that's right, yeah. Er and er anyone who's got that sort of contract, take my advice to keep it. So even if you do repay your loan on a building society account, er don't forget that erm er the erm... building society will then want to charge you for keeping the deeds of your house. Cos if you take them back, you've got to keep them somewhere... and building societies and banks are charging much more than they used to for actually keeping safe deposit. So just work out with your building society whether they'll do it cheaply. Or if you've got a solicitor who is handling your legal affairs, then perhaps they do it er for nothing or cheaply. I mean y I think the charges that banks are making in order to make up some of their losses, they're going to be passed on to the average investor, you know the average client, so erm you know the Halifax will do it free, I've heard recently that they are actually charging for er holding your deeds. And some of them actually cha make sure that you have to keep your house and contents insured through the society, which again can be more expensive. So er just beware of what you're doing when you, when you, course you can actually keep a mortgage a a account open, in other words you can keep it open on a pound a year whatever it is with the Halifax. And they will actually keep your deeds, erm work out if it is cheap enough to do it that way. [speaker001:] If we leave that, supposing you topped up your mortgage, which, with an endowment mortgage [John:] Ah. [speaker001:] but a top up mortgage of course isn't because you can't [John:] No. [speaker001:] you can't get the, the tax benefit that you got originally with an endowment. [John:] Right. Mr.! [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] keep their repayments low. Now there is one window, and I'm glad you mentioned that because you just reminded me that, that, that you can get fi good fixed-rate loans at the moment. Y very good fixed-rate loans. Erm if they, if you've got a heavy mortgage, and I'm not suggesting that many of you will have a heavy mortgage, it's not a bad thing when you're retiring to fix a rate, because we've not been able to do that for a long time. And at the moment the building societies and banks are chasing business, they're really desperate, and er they'll, they'll give you a very good fixed rate. Now I've got some tables in the car, and if you'd like me to fetch them during break, I'll, I'll leave them on the table for you. Because I just fixed my mortgage for four years with the Halifax, and it's a total gamble fixing mortgages, by the way, if we, you know, because I don't know where interest rates are going to go, but I, I fixed at seven point seven five percent for four years. You can get a seven year fix with Barclays, at about eight point five percent. That's over seven years. If you go for a ten year fix, Bank of Scotland are doing it at about eight point nine nine.... That's ten years. Now you can see what's happening. Shorter term fix at very low rates, medium term fix medium rates, and so on. Now, what you've got to do is to think well if you've got a mortgage over er I wouldn't think you'd consider this if your mortgage was under twenty thousand, it's not such a big [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] liability, but if you're getting beyond that, you've got to think well is it worth me spending money to actually erm er... get the mortgage fixed? Erm it I think it is, because I think we're in a, we're in a dip, if I can just go off the... the, the idea of conventional investments at the moment. But this is the interest rate dip we're in here, I mean we've seen, we've seen I reckon we're somewhere around here, we could be either side of that, but I think... what we're going to find next year is that the Chancellor, because he's had to keep interest rates low and he's stimulating the economy, er you're going to find that eventually he's going to have to push interest rates up to control inflation. Because everybody de everybody's denying inflation is there. And it is at the moment because nobody's buying any goods. But the minute we all start buying goods again, it's ith an endowment. [526 1] I think that the compan companies out there have not made any profits for about five years, and they're desperate to return to er an even keel, and they are going to force up the price of goods and services as soon humanly possible, and we'll pick up the bill. And inter interest rates will have to come up to control er the rate of inflation, if the government pursues its normal course. So I think there is a case for going for a fixed-rate. How much does it cost? Well, if you're going with your own society,th it's about two fifty to three hundred. I mean the Halifax charged me three hundred pounds for this... and I've already got a mortgage with them, so they don't need to do any sort of er er in depth surveys, or, or, or assessments on the house. So I rang the Halifax and er I said I'd like this fixed rate please. I said erm if you're already a Halifax customer, what's the charge? Cos I thought well, he'll probably say, you know, half to you. You know, with being a Halifax customer. She said three hundred pounds. So I said oh, er, is there, there's no discount for being a Halifax customer? No, no, no. I said but you've not got to do any work for this. She said well that's the rules, you know that's how we're doing this, we're offering a fixed-rate for three hundred pounds. So I said okay, okay, yeah, send me the forms. She said do well you don't need any forms, cos it's only you, we're only going to alter it on the computer [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] only going to alter it on the computer anyway. So she says if you just write me a letter and get your wife to sign it, we'll do the rest, put your three hundred pounds in the [LAUGHTER] in with your application. So I thought, this is money for old rope, you know. But er there you go you pay your money and you take your choice. Er I mean y y the i if you are moving from one society to another, then obviously er you will be charged, and there will be the two hundred and fifty pound fixing fee, plus whatever else. So y I've got to weigh up whether I'm actually going to make a profit over four years or whether it's going to be, but I'm not doing it for that it's not so much making a profit as the fact that I can secure the loan for four years and know that I haven't got any extra to, to find, and when you've retired, if you've got say seven years on your mortgage and you're thinking well if mortgage rates go up erm I could get stuffed you know if they doubled again... then you could actually fix on that assumption. But erm it is a risk because you don't know whether they're going to go up or down. And er we could all get it wrong, and we could be in the E R M,i if we go back into the E R M then er you know if they stabilize interest rates across Europe er then we could be okay. But I mean a fixed rate is a bird in the hand, really, and I think they're quite good at the moment. So I'll bring that list in for you to have a look at, and you might spot your own society in there and give them a ring and see what they, they've got on offer. Er okay so I think that er covers mortgages, but if you've got any house if you've got any house improvement loans which were taken out anything like credit card debts anything where you're paying er a high rate of interest, then I think you should get rid of those every time. You know cancel any of your big debts because it's going to help your budgeting if you know that you've got rid of a lot of er [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] bits and pieces. Erm and er you can then budget accordingly.... Er right, I'm just having a check to see whether, Scott is it half past ten? [speaker001:] Yes. Er ten forty five. [John:] Ten forty five so we've gone a bit. [speaker001:] Ke the, the k kettle's boiling so at the most convenient time, John, if you'd care to [John:] Right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] rather than the clock. [John:] Okay, I will do. Er I'll just talk erm just talk briefly about emergency access money, cos this wi this covers one point I in the next session. Erm it's to erm reserve er for emergencies, obviously, I, I'd use a building society or bank, to cover holidays and domestic needs, to set up hobby or retirement applications, so we'd always say, leave a fair amount in the building society, and the only thing th advice I'd give you is one, stick to the major societies, and secondly, if you're looking for larger investments, use a postal account. Anybody got one yet? Right. Okay. They're getting more popular. And er certainly I think they're good value. Erm postal accounts have got er a definite er advantage over other er methods of er er building society holdings. Purely because you've got no staff. I mean the Cheltenham and Gloucester, the Britannia, erm the erm Bristol and West, they've all got no staff, they just have a computer and er and erm they send you er everything through the post. But the rates are obviously slightly better than you will get elsewhere, about three quarter percent above an ordinary ninety day account... and the main advantage normally instant access on these accounts. So where, if I'm putting twelve thousand in for sort of a, a holding fund for, for individuals I might put three thousand into a local society so they can pop down to the Nottingham Building Society for any bits and pieces, and th the, the bulk of it can go into a postal account to, with a better rate. But er I would warn you about er er accounts which obviously tie your money for a lot longer than maybe six months or a year... because you're always at the mercy of the er of the er building society then if their rates turn down or if you want access, you've got penalties, and I think if, there's no point in chasing interest rates through building societies generally, because if you take an average over five years, there isn't a lot of difference between one society and another. And you know what's happened I mean there's a lot of trickery involved where they get you into an account that if you read the small print it says Ju rates guaranteed until June ninety three and as soon as June ninety three, and as soon as June ninety three comes around, your, your seven percent becomes five percent. So you've always got that thing to think about. So with building societies generally, it's got to be somewhere you like, somewhere that you, you've got instant access to, stick to the major players. I remember one teacher retiring several years ago in Nottingham said to me er he says I'm sticking with the Nationwide, me. He says. Well why's that I said? Well when I cycle into Nottingham, they let me keep my bike in the branch while I go shopping. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And that's [LAUGHTER] [John:] Rather than replacing the push bike. Erm just before we break, erm it might be worthwhile just having a look at a few examples. And erm we won't have time to go through all of these afterwards, but if I hand a few round to you, what I'd like you to do is er just have a go and jot down some of the er solutions that you would provide. Put yourself in the position of a financial adviser, for the couple that you see, these are all theoretical couples obviously, theoretical individuals, and just jot down on this the sort t. Mr.! [speaker001:] Can you go widows, widowers or single people? [John:] Yes, yeah.... But er I think it doesn't really matter whether it's erm it's er you know relating to your own circumstances, it's more l it's more ab about just solving problems really. [speaker001:] Can I just ask about the postal accounts at this stage. Er where do you find out about those? [John:] Er postal accounts. Well you can get them in the financial press, erm usually the Telegraph on a, on a weekend or the Money Mail or the, any of the loca any good quality paper, or you can buy some of the financial guides that you get in er, in er newsagents these days. I mean I use things like Money Management, and they're quite useful, erm but er you don't need to erm er spend a lot of time looking round. There is a building society shop in Nottingham, isn't there? [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] And I think they can do quite a bit on that. [speaker001:] ? [John:] Yeah, I will. I'll try and find you one. Yeah, oh there's a good one.... Right.... Some of these are extreme examples, some not. And er once you've had a look at that, you can er perhaps break for coffee, and we'll have a chat about it after the break. [speaker001:] ... [tape off for coffee break]... [John:] Right, erm so we'll er just start with a quick erm er look round what people have decided on for investment er in individual cases. So i i if you can er give me the background if I ask you to sort of give me a bit of background for the case, I'll write it up here, and I'll write down the solutions and see what, see what you've done. Er okay er so has anybody done erm er let's start with erm er Miss, has anybody done Miss? [speaker001:] Yes. Yeah, yeah, we're half way down it. [John:] Oh no, right, yes okay. Er so if you can start us off.... [speaker001:] Thank you, to the local authority, I'd [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'd defer it. [John:] [sniff] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'd defer it. I [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] get to make some more. [John:] Yeah, you can't really defer your pension you have to take it when you retire, don't you? I don't think you can defer it. [speaker001:] Can you? [John:] You, you can defer a state pension, but it's not really that, that viable. [speaker001:] Can't you do that? We thought you could. [John:] Not with er not with a local authority pension, as far as I'm aware. I wouldn't recommend it anyway. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] put it back into your pension fund? [John:] Er [speaker001:] To grow, to take? [John:] You can if it's a, if it's a private pension, yes you can do. [speaker001:] But you can't. [John:] No no let's assume, let's assume that she has to take it. I don't think you can. I mean nobody's ever asked me that question before. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Sorry. [John:] Can I defer my pension? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Anyway, if we can start with er with, with the position as it's there, you know if we can take that. [speaker001:] Er two, private income. Shares. [John:] Right. Okay so she's getting, is it ten thousand from Lloyds? [speaker001:] Five. [John:] Yeah, five from private shares [speaker001:] Five from her pension. [John:] Yeah. So she's got an income of ten. [speaker001:] She's got her own house. No mortgage. [John:] No mortgage, right.... [speaker001:] Lump sum plus redundancy money of twenty grand. [John:] Yeah.... [speaker001:] Building society deposits twenty grand. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And value of eight grand. [John:] Yeah, so she's [speaker001:] Total forty eight. [John:] So she's got forty eight thousand right so er what was the inter er er you would question the instruction. Cos she was. She, she's got a modest lifestyle. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] That, that's, that's your ten thousand a year income, she can get by on that er this is interesting cos it's all shares. I, when I wrote it I thought well she's inherited this from her family and [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] that that's ongoing income, so what would you suggest there then? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think a world cruise. [John:] World cruise, yes. I've had that before. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Send her round the world three times. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] keen and adventurous,. [John:] Okay, so if you can give me some suggestions that might, might actually improve, cos we've got to be seriously thinking that she's fifty six, this is the other key to it. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] And she's got a long time to use this money, and okay this might be sufficient now, but will it be when she's seventy, seventy five, so we've got to make that money work so [speaker001:] Something to pay but tax. [John:] That's right. Yes, I mean er something to er mitigate or er evade and evade is a bad word isn't it really? [speaker001:] Avoid. [John:] Avoid. Avoid. Avoid tax, yes. Yes. Or tax, tax planning. Anyway, erm the er what were your solutions then to that? You started it, so you know. [speaker001:] Well, the first one we got kicked on the head because take the pension. [John:] Oh right. [speaker001:] Erm... [John:] No, okay, can I pass that on to somebody else, yes? [speaker001:] I've done the lot. Keep your bank account in credit. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Get a TESSA. [John:] TESSA. Right. P E P? [speaker001:] P E P? [John:] P E P. [speaker001:] Keep five thousand in a local instant access building society.... , fingers crossed. Put five thousand in a top ten postal account. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] Put the rest in unit trusts with a long established firm.... [John:] Yeah. Unit trusts.... Right. Okay. So, [speaker001:] Index-linked. [John:] Er right, another suggestion of index-linked, would you recommend that as reasonable?. Er well I'll put those down, so let's find some of these because obviously you won't have met them all, maybe. But erm certainly erm I, I think that was erm a, a very good response to this because erm obviously we've got er a g a fair selection here, you've got erm building society instant and top ten postal, that's the postal account there, erm TESSA, P E P and unit trusts, and possibly index-linked certificates, and I'll go back to those but I mean certainly that was a good er a good spread, and I think er you know you should be er thinking, well you know this lady's going to have some safe growth in the in the future. Erm and obviously she's used to shares she's not going to be worried about unit trusts or P E Ps cos she's already had er a lot of share er a P E P share income here anyway. So she'll be quite happy w to spread it like that. Erm the only thing that erm I thought she might er do was erm er something else on a ten year basis, because she's only fifty six, I mean that's relatively young, so would you possibly suggest anything that could go for ten or more years? [speaker001:] An annuity. [John:] Erm [speaker001:] with profits annuity. [John:] With profits, yeah. Or, or endowments I was thinking of, rather than a [speaker001:] But she's no children, why she doesn't want to actually? [John:] No no, but an endowment's purely savings if it's taken as a, as a maximum investment plan or a, or a, an i i a pure endowment. And he's erm... when we were thinking about tax planning, I was thinking that if a, a, a qualifying endowment, if it's run for ten years, the one big advantage is that it always pays without deduction of tax. So it's always t tax-free cash, and any tax-free cash that we can accumulate would be very useful. Because you've no idea in ten years time what your er er position will be with regard to income and tax. I mean, for a start we've got twenty five pence in the pound tax rate, where will we be in five years time? Thirty percent? Thirty two percent? So any tax-free cash that she's got might be useful. I mean I won't go into detail, but I mean she could do endowment, she could do it on a maximum investment plan basis, to back up her P E P, erm and save regularly through different funds. So I mean that was a good solution. Er any others for Miss, with any other alterations to that? Any, any other suggestions? [speaker001:] Can I ask a question? [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] I didn't know this one. Erm if you're buying an endowment policy is it possible to put er put it in as it were paid up, or do you have to find the premiums out of your income? Erm [John:] You can, you can make a single premium contribution to it, [speaker001:] Ah. [John:] that's a useful point actually, I, I'll, I'll cover it now, cos er the lady over there mentioned an annuity, the two can be done together. It's called a back-to-back, and er the insurance company issue two, two contracts. They issue an er they issue an annuity, which is erm er if you're not sure what an annuity is, this is a temporary annuity, and they might say in the case of Miss they might say well what about a ten year annuity? Er in actual fact it's a ten year contract, you buy er a nine year annuity, and the first premium goes to the endowment when you put the money in so let's say we er put a thousand pounds in in the, the first year, and that fund's on an, on an annual premium. Now the next nine premiums come from the annuity, and that feeds in here. Now at the end of the ten years of course the erm the accumulation here erm is completed, we've, we've actually funded the policy right the way through, so it's now a qualifying policy, tax-free down here, and the annuity has been exhausted, so that's gone, so you've used one to fund the other. And at the end of the ten years of course that's all tax-free cash. The annuity is actually quite a attractive because there's not much tax er liability on an annuity anyway, only a very small proportion and for her in this situation she could actually make a single contribution of say eight thousand pound, the maturity from the endowment, and actually buy this sort of contract straight off. In which case she doesn't have to worry about funding from income, which is what your question was wasn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] She doesn't have to fund it from income. And it would all be funded from within the contract. Er they're very good in fact, I mean even the erm if you look at say the result from Clerical Medical over ten years, erm... fifteen thousand invested, er currently er returning something like forty three thousand over er the five the ten year term, so that's not bad. You know, well over double your money, which is what a building society would have done, it would just about have doubled your money over ten.... But of course the problems are with this contract that it wouldn't suit everybody, one because you've got no access for the ten years, you've bought the contract up front, and if you want access to it, it's very limited and of course if you cash an endowment early as we know it'd damage the, the er the income sorry the, the growth at the end of the plan. Er but we can write these with some f flexibility, and erm there is a deferred income version, where you can run it so you were say you didn't need income five years, you can run it for five years, then la then leave it erm and just take the annuity income as er as, as er regular income. So you can actually move it about a bit, but it's not that flexible a contract. But in the case of a younger person, looking for er very secure growth, it's not a bad thing to do. So erm Miss, I mean she's an easy case to do really, [speaker001:] What [John:] cos she's got loads of, sorry? [speaker001:] What sort of return would you get over ten years on, on a gold brick. Bullion. Jewellery, diamonds. [John:] Er hard to say, because you're moving into er specialist areas like commodities. Erm I mean we don't even look at the figures on those, because it's not the sort of investment that we would actually consider erm useful for a, for a longer term investor. I m she's a little bit different in that she could erm take erm a flyer into something like that [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] but commodities are high risk by the nature of er the narrowness of the market. And I mean recently I came across somebody who'd got some part holdings in diamonds, and of course the diamond market's gone into... rapid decline because of the er is it Namibian diamonds, and, and the Russians er breaking up the De Beer market. And you can, you can have that thing looking very very difficult, very, in very short time. So I mean she'd have to be a very speculative investor, she'd have to be right up to er adventurous, for her to think about that. Er but I mean as, as to returns, I mean you'd have to look at specialist press for that erm [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] I mean I've got some indications in er a couple of books I've got in the car, er but erm again I've not been asked that question you know, what's the bullion return, things like that, it's, it's a little bit out of the ordinary, but you can find the figures. Yes? [speaker001:] Can you explain P E Ps? Don't know about them. [John:] Right, okay, well I'll do it now, so we don't, so we're not mechanically going through this, cos I mean if you don't know what a P E P is, it's worth looking at now. So, a P E P is erm er introduced by er Mr Lawson, who you might remember some time ago had er a job... as the Chancellor and is now working part-time in the City. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah.... He, he does get p paid more than two, two pound fifty an hour as I understand. I mean I l the, the pundit system in this country is absolutely delightful, I mean you don't need do you, when I mean the economy's in, in, in reverse and things are going horribly wrong and they wheel on Mr Lawson to explain what he would have done, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] had he still been in control, and I'm thinking God, how do they, how on earth can they possibly go and say that you know? It's like, it's rather like asking Henry Kissinger to sort of er er give us some advice on foreign policy in Sou in South-East Asia or whatever. I mean,i i i it's, it's almost an, an obsession with society. Isn't it? To bring back people who erm you know perhaps have had their time [LAUGHTER] and ask their opinion. Anyway, six thousand into a standard P E P, now er P E Ps are erm er an instrument which were basically to do with shares, originally... and the shares were invested in U K companies, and er the real dividend value of a sh the share, the, the shares have a dividend, and the real value of a P E P is the dividend yield. Now if a go if a company's got a high dividend yield, it might be about six percent gross. And of course it'll be four and a half after it's paid tax, you know if you've got any tax credits from your nationalized shares, you'll see those come through, and y you've got the net return. Now P E P allows you to er allows the managers on your behalf to reclaim the tax, so a lot of the funds are geared for income, and when you're retiring, income geared P E Ps are excellent news. Now, the e the early versions were erm a lot less er flexible, they were the dinosaurs, and if anybody's got an original P E P, they'll know that all the dealing transactions, all the adjustments have all got to be noted and filed, and if anybody's had a Lloyds Bank P E P since nineteen eighty seven, they'll probably have a compete cabinet full of paperwork by now. Which you don't have on a mede modern P E P because they can be written through investment trusts, unit trusts, single shares for three thousand or specialist, er self-select P E Ps. Self-select P E Ps are a little bit different, is that when you, you the managers give you a choice of shares and it's rather like pulling the handle on the one-armed bandit, you say right, I'll start with er er I C I and I'll back that up with B A T, and, and you leave them in for as long as you want, and you pay a charge when you move the shares, so you can actually control the P E P. Er very difficult unless you're into the share market er on a regular basis, but erm if you want a P E P, er er I, I'd certainly say they're worth having, and certainly for some of the people er in this room. But don't be erm er led into doing growth, growth P E Ps necessarily, because growth P E Ps really won't give you much of a deal. If you want a growth-type investment, such as I don't know, Far Eastern fund, or something like that, or a, or even a European Special Situations, you n you, you might as well not use the P E P because they wh you get about one percent on er a growth P E P. And that's not going to be of use to anybody is it? You're not saving any tax on that, on that difference. So a one percent dividend yield, not, not worth writing as a P E P. But what they've done is, they've actually dis distorted the rules on P E Ps as time's gone along and the Chancellor's allowed them to do it, and the distortions are getting more and more elaborate, and er I think they keep knocking on the revenue door and saying er we, we've designed this one, is this okay? And so far the revenue have been going yeah, yeah, go away go away. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And er eventually somebody will spot it, and realize that they've actually moved well away from what p P E Ps originally were. You see one of the rules is that you keep money in cash until it was invested. And Fidelity kept saying well, er if we don't feel like investing it this month, can we keep it in cash a bit longer? And if we're keeping it in cash, can we buy some gilts? or can we buy some fixed interest securities? Yeah, okay, you can do that. So now a anything goes in a P E P. Which is great while i while it, while it lasts. [speaker001:] What does P E P mean? [John:] Personal equity plan. [speaker001:] you can have it nine thousand if you pay six into the fund and another three thousand. [John:] Yes. And then three thousand in that's the single share P E P in any one. [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] And you need to choose a P E P manager per year, so if you're already with one P E P manager, you've either got to buy him out and give it to another P E P manager, or you can, you can erm er choose another one each year in other words, I do a different P E P each year, with a different manager, and that keeps everything moving so that you've got a good spread. Some of them are getting very elaborate, and you're seeing the stuff in the press for things like ten percent gross yields, has anybody seen those?... A a absolute scream, they are. But I mean they actually do work, er ten percent gross yield and erm if you asked me to explain how they get the ten percent, I'd have to use some notes they gave to me cos it's, cos it's complicated, but they use derivatives, and they buy in er in the shares and options market, and erm the company I'm thinking of actually own the shares, but you take options on them, and they take commission on the options, they also take dividends, er and by the time you've read the, the, the spiel, it sounds a bit like you've fitted all these petrol savers to your car and you're driving to Nottingham, and the tank overflows, it's that sort of [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] it's, it's that sort of theory. But there's a, it, it actually does work, it actually does work. I m I mean we have approved these schemes, I mean th they are nothing to do with direct share ownership. I mean you might have about forty percent of the fund in shares and the rest will be input options, derivatives and all sorts of complicated devices. But basically as far as you are concerned you can get that sort of dividend yield, which is brilliant because i y as a tax-payer if you can te ten percent... erm the, the fund is written as a unit trust and you'd be paying seven you'd be paid seven and a half percent on that one, so which one would you choose? Have it written as a P E P and it makes good sense. But I think the distortions are getting rather weird now, and I, I think that, that the, in a, in a future budget when the Chancellor's less pressed, I mean P E Ps really weren't a priority this year, were they? I'm sure he'd got a few more bits of paper on his desk than what shall we do about P E Ps? But when he gets round to it, I think he'll control them a bit more closely, now you can invest in that sort of fund quite safely, and although it won't give you any capital growth, because if they're giving you ten percent income, obviously the capital growth's going to be limited, but er if it's the income that you're after, not a bad thing to do, so I mean at the moment I may actually combine one income-type er P E P with one growth and income, where the, where the, perhaps the yield is about five percent. Er the original criticism, if you can remember it, was all the ch all the stuff about charges, do you remember all that? About, you know, the horrible charges, and they were horribly badly charged, I mean, Lloyds Bank you reckon they could activate ten and a half percent in its first year to actually break even... you know, because of the initial charges setting up fees, etcetera. Now that's pretty heavy going. It wasn't Lloyds fault, it was just that they were complying with the original P E P regulations about reporting and, and er so on, so they had to charge more. So it, if it's an ordinary unit trust, your initial charge can be somewhere about five to six percent, however, a number of companies have realized that they can discount if you, if they've got your s if they've got your commitment, they'll discount. So in some groups, if I say right, this client's willing to commit himself for three years minimum, they'll discount the initial charge down to about two percent. In some cases down to nil... if we take a five year contract. In other words, if you come out early, you'll be charged, erm er a sliding scale. On that five on the five year one, if you come out year three, you'll get three percent exit charge. Now we've been asking for this for years. Because nobody likes to pay up front. I mean, it's not fair is it really? I mean you're taking five percent of your money when you first go into the fund, and, and that's an exceptional er amount of money that you won't get back, but if i if they're saying well we'll invest the whole lot for you, but you've got to keep with us,w then y you've got the option. And if in three years you decided the performance was less than adequate, it would be worth you losing two percent to come out. Now having said that I mean the late long established er unit trust group, I mean as a, as a company we've got to be very careful who we use, we've got an approved list erm in London and in Bournemouth we have erm a, a department which analyzes products, and those products come onto our approved list when they've, when they've fulfilled a number of criteria. Are the charges reasonable, er is the performance good, is the managing group secure? And er a number, a number of other factors. So once it's got onto our approved list, we're pretty sure that we're, we're really in the right area. And that would be you know companies you're probably already familiar with, you know people like M and G, erm Fidelity, erm... er. [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] Erm anybody who's into unit trusts who will perhaps recognize some of those names. And then into the investment trust, and Colonial, er and erm er let's see,, people like that. So w w w that's constantly reviewed. Not that I do it, I mean if I tried to read all that stuff, I'd never leave home but I mean they actually give a a an advice list which we can then comply with. So as far as you're concerned, P E Ps have got a tremendous part to play at the moment, and I do recommend that you take advantage of them. Two years ago, difficult for me to get a client to move from a building society because they were saying well I'm getting about nine percent with the Abbey National, er why should I take the risk on a P E P? Well the risk now is staying in Abbey National because your rate's down to about four percent net. And the, the dividend yield from a P E P can be anything from sort of five to ten percent and the potential for capital growth. [speaker001:] And it's tax-free. [John:] And it's tax-free. But you've got to make a mental leap, because I mean for the last five years, things have been pretty horrible, since eighty seven really, I mean we've only had the pick up in the last year. But it's an act of faith to say well,i you know well, I'll go into a P E P. But if you look at the low-risk a aspect of a P E P and you also look at the low charges, it's got to be worth looking at, and certainly in terms of spread for Miss, worth erm worth considering, I mean she'd be er a perfect investor for that. [speaker001:] Some years a tin under the bed was better than equities, cos they were [John:] That's right. Except er I, I mean I'd say that the income funds actually performed quite well, if you didn't look at the capital value. You see, I mean I, I, I've got lots of clients who've had capital-l er er income-led funds on this sort of thing for years. And I mean if they'd not looked in a paper... in nineteen eighty seven eighty eight, and realized that fifteen percent of the fund had suddenly gone missing cos it had you know dropped... they they'd have still got income from their investments, and if they didn't need to cash it, then it would have been no problem at all. The funny thing is that er if you look at the better dividend funds in the year of the crash, the dividends actually went up, cos dividend yields from companies were good in that year, so people wouldn't have lost out, their income would have been quite stable. Er obviously if it was in decline, terminal decline then your income and your capital would fall as well. But I mean we've had five years of bad stockmarket performances, and in cyclical er economics I think if you look at the sort of post-war boom [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] slump, we're, then we're back into I wouldn't say a boom, er that's not really the right description, but we're certainly back out of the er woods as far as erm er shares go in the U K. Erm whether it'll be a sustained erm recovery is another question, but I think you can take the view that you know you will, you will get some mileage out of share performances in the next couple of years. [speaker001:] Even the banks. Er the share prices are higher now than they were months ago. [John:] That's right. That's right. And I mean the banks have erm er r really been an i indicator of economic performance, and, and that, that's the case. That it [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] quite a, quite a shock [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] to them I think. [John:] Yeah, that's right. So if we can have a look at another case, er did anybody do erm... excuse me, Mr and Mrs?...? Anybody do? No, I didn't hand one out.... Erm?... Mr and Mrs? Right, okay, just start with Mr. [speaker001:] Er he's got a pension from the local of four thousand. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Erm his wife is self-employed, has got four thousand, but it's not. [John:] So it could come up could go. [speaker001:] No mortgage. And the building society savings of twenty eight thousand.... [John:] Right, so erm what do we do with that then? S s cos they needed a secure income, didn't they? [speaker001:] Yes..... [John:] Er what's the [speaker001:] I, I Mr 's got four thousand, [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] so with the married man's allowance, he's got, he's well under. [John:] Yes. Six five. [speaker001:] . And his wife has something like er three four four five, [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] er which may or may not be there because we don't know how much her income is. [John:] I think we'd have to ignore that allowance [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] and just assume that she, she'll just about use it, erm [speaker001:] Er okay. Er well in that case then, I, I put eight thousand into a building society for easy access, car, holiday,, whatever, [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and I put twenty thousand pounds to give, I, I mean I took it that she would use her allowance, er I took it erm as twenty thousand pounds to give his wife as high a possible gross earning [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] and so divided it that the remainder went to the husband to take up the one thousand one hundred and sixty five. [John:] Right. Right. So you could actually erm erm put something in joint names even, and it would use up his allowance. [speaker001:] I mean if you took that ten percent, it would be two thousand a year from [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] erm and if that was so, [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] roughly half of that could go to him [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] to make up his allowances, [John:] Right. [speaker001:] a a and the rest er [John:] Right. That's fine, but how would you do it? Er was it just a high rate building society, or? [speaker001:] No, I would put it in gross earnings, perhaps erm half into National Savings [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] er and look round for something else. [John:] Right. So National Savings, that's not a bad decision, cos I mean National Savings are absolutely secure, and the other thing is that you don't need to put twenty five thousand pounds in to get the highest rate, you'll get the highest rate from two thousand pounds upwards, so it's very good for small amounts. So it's excellent here, but we know that it's at a variable, and I think the problem that you were probably facing is how do you secure a... a better rate than that. Erm you know the, the answer must be that erm er just before I answer that, I mean has anybody else done Mrs, and Mr? Anybody else do that one? [speaker001:] We did it, but it was... very similar. [John:] Right, okay, fine, that s saves a bit of time. But I mean the thing is here that the twenty thousand pounds, if it's invested er into National Savings, you c you've got another ten thousand and you could look for er a fixed return. Now normally, fixed returns we do use, you know like guaranteed income bonds, guaranteed er returns, but unfortunately, if you look at the Halifax list, or the er any building society list, their fixed-rate returns are very dodgy and they're round about sort of er six and a half to seven percent at the most erm if you tie for three to four years, and they go up to about seven and a half, maybe a little bit more if you tie for five years. Now I'm not too sure whether interest rates, I'm not very keen on tying interest rates, you see I think we're going up again, perhaps within the next eighteen months, so one way round is to use another type of investment, and you could use an offshore erm fund, er building society stroke investment fund, er which would actually give you a better rate. Has anybody used offshore funds at all? Right. Er. Was that a, is that pure building society investment, or? [speaker001:] No, it was a... a bank gilt fund. [John:] A gilt fund? Right. Erm [speaker001:] Jersey. [John:] Jersey gilts? And an and what was your opinion of that, did it work or not? [speaker001:] The cheque keeps coming. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [cough] [John:] Yeah. There was a problem with gilt funds about three years ago, and T S B ran up against the problem of falling gilt yields and trying to maintain the, the flow to the investor, which they did, but th they failed to tell the investor that they were having to erm sell gilts and er trade under market value, so in fact you reduce the fund, but there are halfway stages, and I mean at the moment I can get round about eight percent, plus... on, on erm er offshore funds. And they, they invest outside U K and you're p perfectly legal to use these, and as long as they're Securities and Investment Board regulated, you're okay. So you could put some money into er an offshore fund. [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] something which is regulated and i is part of a major organization, a bank, or an insurance company, you're pretty well okay. And that, that eight percent plus could then be paid into your account. But it's likely to be more stable than the U K, because if the U K rates continue to fall, they'll move their money into erm other er currencies. It'll always be a sterling fund, but it can be moved into other currencies, or into gilts, as your fund obviously is. So there is that flexibility there. So that's one of the few options you've got at the moment. I mean, fixed rates are dangerous because once you've fixed, if interest rates then go up, you've lost out on your er return and you can't get your money out anyway, so I mean at the moment it's really erm er er very deeply into the cycle of low, of low interest rates. Okay, so now that was fairly straightforward, erm let's have a look at another case. Mr, he's interesting. [speaker001:] We've got Mr. Yes. [John:] Right. Mr. [speaker001:] Not very much on him though. No.... I've got him. [John:] Right so, er right, if you can start us off with Mr then, tell us the [speaker001:] Well, I've, I didn't look er erm I can see deficiencies in what I've done now you've been through the other [John:] Well, it doesn't matter. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] I mean, if you just tell us what you [speaker001:] Well, I thought he should put erm er about ten thousand into a building society... er type investment [John:] Right. [speaker001:] of some sort. [John:] I'll just set the scene for the others in that he's er fifty five isn't he? He's just come back from Australia [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] and he's in inherited a family home, so he's got a home to live in, but he doesn't earn very much does he? [speaker001:] No, but he's got a hundred and twenty thousand nest egg. [John:] So he's got three thousand pounds income, and he's got a hundred and twenty thousand pound nest egg. [speaker001:] Yes. I've concentrated on investing the nest egg really. [John:] Right. Okay. So you've got ten thousand into the building society. [speaker001:] Yes, I think he needed something quite secure and accessible. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Then er I thought perhaps he should go for erm... erm something that's er... will give him a, a good income, but er [John:] Mhm. [speaker001:] growth as well, so I wondered about er say thirty thousand in investment trusts, or perhaps [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] with a P E P you see that [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] thirty thousand split between those. [John:] Yeah, that's fine. [speaker001:] And then I, well if it's really income he needs, I thought he could look at an equities portfolio for the eighty thousand, say, forty thousand in er groceries and forty thousand in pharmaceutical. [John:] Right. So er sounds like you can act as inv investment manager for this man actually. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm, er... but er yes,so eighty thousand to er in equity portfolio, and that would give him a yield of maybe erm you know four percent, something like that after tax deducted, so er let's say erm say you know er say three thousand two hundred from that roughly, and [speaker001:] P E P exceed the limits? [John:] Er, yes it would. We'd have to put most of it into investment trusts [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] and just use up the P E P. [speaker001:] Unless it was his wife as well. [John:] Yes erm [speaker001:] He's single. [John:] Yes, he's single. And of course he could use it up in subsequent years, he could move some of this into a P E P. So er that would er [speaker001:] And he'd get a little bit on his building society, wouldn't he? [John:] Right, yes, you would, yes. I mean he'd perhaps get erm you know er let's say four hundred pounds a year on his building society, so he'd have some extra income, er four five, just over five thousand pounds a year, that's. [speaker001:] More than doubled what he's got. [John:] Yes, that's right, er I mean the thing is you don't know how much income you've got to generate really. [speaker001:] No. [John:] And er in, within that as you know you can actually er go for er the higher income if he wanted to he could push the income up on the hundred thousand say, we could make the income round about seven percent if we wanted to do. Seven percent plus. Which would give him seven thousand a year, rather than five. So, er there's a fair bit of er I was interested in what you said about equity portfolios, erm the er thing is you'd have to have that privately managed, wouldn't you? [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] And private management means that you would go to a bank or stockbroker, and then you would pay them an annual fee, and there would be other charges, you know for selling er and buying of shares, [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] and my er feeling is that under say a hundred and fifty thousand, that y that you're going to find the charges are quite heavy, because it's not a group investment, it's an individual investment. Erm some of the banks actually lay off the charges to some extent, but I think he might find that a bit expensive to run, erm and of course they'll take their charges even if they don't make a profit for you. [speaker001:] As often as not. [John:] A s and, and quite frankly, er you're going to have to be a little bit careful. I mean you could use group investments, I mean what you did with the investment trusts gives him a better spread, [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] lower charges, and I think you could perhaps use other funds to erm er increase that. Er but erm certainly the theory's okay, I mean he's got instant access here, investment trust and equities, and if he needed the income, he could certainly get it. I mean you've got quite a lot of movement in there and, and you could do quite a bit for him. I mean I imagined he was working in Earl's Court, you know, pulling pints of Fosters and er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] possibly er needing a few bob to er you know tide him, but that, that's fine. Did anybody else do Mr? [speaker001:] We thought about him buying some property and letting it out. [John:] Yes, yes, that's not a bad idea. He could become a landlord. So you, you could put him into property, erm but erm I don't know if he'd been in the U K for the last few years whether he'd be that keen on commercial property. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Would you like the whole of the Dockland development for a hundred and twenty thousand? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So t [speaker001:] That much? [John:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] It's quite pricey. It is a good time now to buy isn't it? [John:] Yes, it is a good time to buy Mr, yes, we ought to encourage him to buy. So property and he could rent, and the rental income then could er be used er as a, as a useful form of income. So that's a possibility. Erm so any other possibilities for Mr? [speaker001:] We thought he might find the house was too big for him, sell it and buy something smaller. [John:] Right, yes he could do. [speaker001:] Get some capital that way. [John:] Yes, he could do. [speaker001:] Or he could marry a rich sheila. [LAUGHTER] A wealthy widow has a lot. [John:] Yes, he could start corresponding with Miss,. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] run a guest house or take. [John:] Yes, run a guest house yes, yes. Right, okay. [speaker001:] surprising he can get rid of the property by you know, sort of letting the building society or someone have it, have the capital out of it, and use that capital as well, cos if he's single he's got no dependent well, [John:] Yes, yes. [speaker001:] we assume he's got no dependents, [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] so he could actually have the benefit of that money as well. [John:] Right, you mean like a home income scheme? [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Yes. Er, very wary of those, really, and we're not recommending them at all. Er but that's only because of the erm the difficulties of erm er of, of ownership of this sort of thing. I mean you u some of them used to be the growth roll up, you know the [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] the, the debt rolled up against the value of the home, and once it gets to seventy five percent, you lose the home, or could do, and of course people who took this out, it was before the housing collapse, you're in difficulties. So unless you're very elderly, and you're living in a very er splendid dwelling it's probably not worth it. I mean I... [tape change]... If we have ten thousand pounds, we could put four thousands into an, an annuity, and say six thousand into a P E P, to give a simple example, and the P E P could then accumulate value over the te over the five years, let's assume it's a five year one, but it could be ten. And that would give him about eighty pounds a month at the moment. So that would be a guaranteed eighty pounds a month, and at the end of five years, we'd assume that the P E P had actually grown enough to give him his money back, you know it's, it's because this, because it's a temporary annuity, it would be lost after the five years. It's not a lifetime annuity, and that would have grown to replace his er capital. So he'd get the ten thousand back. They're quite flexible, because he can actually take the income from the P E P if he wants to increase his er income as he goes along. In Mr 's case, I'd probably write it for longer than five years, probably do a ten year one. The snag is at the moment is that annuity rates aren't too hot, cos they've gone down with interest rates, so er I think maybe that I'd hold off doing that until later, and use other types of investment, and then maybe at maturity, roll it back into, into erm a er... single premium annuity. That's an alternative.... Now [speaker001:] I I have a gut feeling against annuities. I don't like things that disappear, and I don't like [LAUGHTER] [John:] And you can't have your money back, [speaker001:] No. [John:] once they've got your money. Actually they do work well, I mean there is, there is one scenario where it does work well, if you're elderly, and you're in good health, then annuities are, are pretty good value... because they look on their actuarial charts, if you're an eighty eight year old, and er make an assessment and say well, for every ten thousand you give us, we'll give thirteen thousand a year. So you've not got to live that long before you're into profit. You've got to make sure that you're in good health, and you're a er hale and hearty individual, so if you're from a long lived family, erm I once er made a mistake on er delivering one of these courses and er I think erm erm there's an elderly lady used to work on the course, do you remember Miss, Miss? [speaker001:] Oh yes. [John:] And she's a super lady. And er very straight-faced in fact, and she was sitting at the back of the room, and I, I'd just said to everybody, I said nobody here's got a life purchased annuity, have they? You know, cos I knew everybody was far too young. And er this hand went up from the back, you see.... And I thought oh, well that's interesting. So it was Miss. And then I, and I made this bit of a faux pas, I says, oh you must have got a very good rate, cos I knew she'd been retired years and years, you see. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And everybody fell about laughing, realized. But er I mean er she, she was in a perfect position to do it, I mean she'd been retired a long time, she was in good health and obviously an annuity would be perfect for her er where it wouldn't be for a younger person, so I mean life annuities not got. But I think you're right on temporary annuities, they are good if the rate's good. The ones that I did two years ago, which are giving a return of something about er nine to nine and a half percent a year, plus the potential for return in capital, will actually be very good. I mean th th they've done better than anybody than everything else, because as rates have come down, I can go back and see a client and the National Savings has fallen, and the building society's fallen, but the, the annuity's still plugging away. And it's horses for courses, it's secure. It's a bit dull, but it does actually provide you with a level of income that you want. And what you don't know is the question mark is at the end will you get your money back or not? Well sometimes if I'm doing er say a sixty year old, to sixty five, he's got his state pension to come in at sixty five, so even if the P E P hasn't quite recovered, he might just decide to leave that where it is, and then his state pension comes in, his income is then made up, and off we go again. So the thing is with all financial planning that you try and keep things very flexible. And one of the flexibilities may actually be to say well if we've got this guaranteed income, we can afford to do something else with the rest. Cos the problem is that th even di share dividends aren't guaranteed. I mean, banks and building societies, whoever, can cut their dividend rate, and you suddenly find your income falls dramatically in one year. So an annuity can't fall once you've bought it it's guaranteed, so you can see there are advantages to it. And er it's a matter of getting the right mix. So I, I wouldn't be entirely suspicious of an of annuities, but at the moment the er the erm temporary rates aren't too good. Er right, so er if you take just one more example and then I'll have to get back to er what we do. Did we finish off Mr? Anybody have an alternative for Mr?... No. Erm what about erm another case, have we got another case that er we, we haven't covered?... Nobody wants challenge me. [LAUGHTER] No I mean it's not, it's not that, it's just that if you've got, if you've got anything you want to say on these cases, then it's worth bringing it out now. [speaker001:] You've not mentioned premium bonds. Is it worth, putting a certain amount s just, just in case, just in case [John:] by seven percent on ERNIE,. ERNIE's just been down-rated by the way to reduce the ou the, the ac the average now is less than seven percent. It's gone down to about five point something hasn't it? I in line with interest rates. Now there was a theory in the south of England, that when one retired, for the first year, you dumped most of your lump sum into premium bonds on the hope of a big win, and then after the first year you invested it, you see, having taken the big win. Cos if you see the, the theory was that if you left it there indefinitely, er obviously the money declines in real value, doesn't it, because you're getting no increase on it. So, I mean to me, it's a pure gamble. Er absolute gamble. So I mean erm I was going to say put money on the Grand National, but you can't really do that can you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] But as far as, as far as erm the, the er the, the investment in, in premium bonds, it's got to be a flutter, it can be nothing else. And I mean I, I find some clients are really lucky, you know they've got a few... fiddly bits of issues and they keep getting fifty pounds here and fifty pounds there, [speaker001:] Every time I come back from my holidays, the first thing I open is the premium bond win. [John:] Yeah, well, you see. [speaker001:] Won three times since last summer. [John:] Good god.... Yeah, do you want sell your? [speaker001:] enough to encourage one. [John:] Yes. Yeah, I think, I think really the er the er overall view of it is that it's not serious investment, I mean it is just pure flutter. Er, and I mean if you want to buy you know a few hundred of it then fine, you know you could b it'll do the job, you know if it's, it's not a, a thing that er [speaker001:] Er you wouldn't include it on your list of... essentials? [John:] No, not at all. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Otherwise you might be desperate to get awa to do something, or get away on holiday, but you're still waiting for that big win. [LAUGHTER] It's a [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Wait for ever. [John:] Yeah, you w yeah, that's right. So er to look at it er another way,w I, I'll stop before I go back to the erm slides, because I want to show you a few on you know erm er the way that money's worked over the last forty years, but if you look at index-linked certificates, cos somebody mentioned that, are they worth having? That's National Savings, and to my mind the only good issue they've got at the moment, and er once you get with index-linked certificates, they were originally the granny bonds that were launched er in the early er late seventies, early eighties. And er they erm were there to provide additional growth on savings, and it was, it was the inflation, the R P I plus a b a bonus which equalizes out at three and a quarter percent per annum. Notice, this is the sixth issue. Yeah. The fifth was better. [speaker001:] That's the one I got. [John:] Yeah. I mean, I, I did what I could in the fifth issue, but you just run out of cash, that's the trouble, but I mean the sixth issue is good. Your maximum investment is now ten thousand pounds each. Wouldn't recommend masses into it, but because it's no income potential, and it's not that flexible, you've got to keep it for five years to make it really work. But if you do keep it, then the results should be pretty good. Having r you see I've had clients saying to me well, I'm not sure about this one. You know I, I like the other stuff, but this one's a bit iffy, you know. And they'll quote to me that inflation's at two percent.... Okay, well you've got two percent plus three and a quarter, that makes five and a quarter. And that it has to be paid before probate is granted. So there'd be d issue, so it's tax free. Four fi five and a quarter tax free, you've got to put an awful lot of money in the building society to get that sort of return haven't you? You're thinking that the gross is round about seven percent. So you think well is that a good bet? I, I'd suggest that it is a good bet, particularly if you think that erm if we do get rising inflation, er in the next year we could be, I mean the projected figures are round about er, by the middle of next year, round about five percent. This is from various investment houses in, in, in the city, so five percent plus three and a quarter, eight and a quarter percent, and I would bet any money that interest rates haven't gone up that quickly. Y I mean you they might have risen slightly, but you won't be getting that sort of investment return, you won't be paying any tax, and you're guaranteed your money's absolutely safe. And if we do get a period of rapid inflation, because if one looks back at seventy four seventy five, with inflation running at over twenty percent a year, stock market out of control, erm and er and er building society rates very poor, erm you know seventy four begins to look a bit like ninety four to me. Erm but I mean obviously it's a different situation, and the Chancellor's still got some manoeuvring to do, but we could end up in, in rapid inflation again, because we haven't had it for ten years. I mean I've the figures on here, I'll show you in a minute, doing absolutely brilliant. For the last ten years, we've been able to retire and keep our living standards up. I know it because I see people regularly that retired five years ago six years ago, seven. They're fine. No real problems if they've been sensible with their money. But what happens if we get that sort of period again?... Er you see R P I linking on your pensions is brilliant, you know there's no, no question about it. Nobody in industry has actually got an absolute guarantee, I mean even the British Telecom schemes said they'll pay, they'll pay the rate of inflation if they feel they can afford. But that means at some point they may actually go below it. Not likely, but it could happen. So you're fully index-linked. Now,d don't forget index-linking is not the same as salary increases, and in a time of rapid inflation, prices go up, salaries go up, and the government can interfere in any way it wants with the R P I index. It can take factors in and out. It can take in mortgages, it can take in property, it can take in other values, so that R P I is a very much a, a negotiable figure. It's like my wife saying well it costs me a lot more at Sainsburys than two percent, you know, increase over the last year. And, and that's true. Er so it's a moveable index. So when you're retired, you've got to think that you're not salary-linked, you're only R P I-linked. And that's where these certificates are the only guarantee that I can provide which will actually say well if we get fifteen percent inflation in nineteen ninety seven, they will pay fifteen p percent inflation, plus the three and a half percent three and a quarter percent bonus. So you can see it's a very very good contract. It may not look it now, but I think it will be over the next five years. At the end of five years, you've got the option er and you can er then extend the er into the erm er next issue if you wish, or you can go on the extension rate, which isn't usually good, or in index-linked certificates' case, they'll perhaps give you indexation, but no er bonuses. So it's perhaps better to reinvest. I mean the old index-linked certificates, when they came up I put them back into the fourth issue, and then the fifth issue and so on because the bonuses are better. Only er National Savings are worth keeping your eye on, because the government's very keen to make a few shillings out of National Savings, and you might get some good issues in the future. Erm so erm that's the one I'd recommend at the moment. The fixed-r the fixed- rates really aren't worth going for. [speaker001:] So by the same token, I assume, building societies are also starting paying something over inflation rates, issued? [John:] Yes, erm building societies I mean I think you're thinking about their equity schemes aren't you? Erm yes. Those are a bit, those are a bit of an untried er area. I'm not stopping people doing it, because people ring me up and say should I do it? And this is where you, the, the building society offer you er the rate of erm er return on the stock market... erm and er a bonus on your account if it doesn't make the rate. Er have you seen those? Er Alliance and Leicester did one, and they, they're offered to investors in the building societies. Just be a bit er bit, bit er wary of them in the sense that you don't know who's managing the fund, er because it's their money, it's not your money, they don't actually invest the money from you, it's their money they're investing. And they'll give you the profit if they make it. It's to keep you invested in building societies, only they, they're frantic because all the money's going out and they want to keep their erm their erm deposits up, so they're offering these schemes, and they are quite good, there are no charges as such, but er you'll get the value of the fund that they've made, or you'll get a say two or three percent bonus per annum on top of the er share rate, er if you keep it for four or five years. So they're not bad value, but I, again I wouldn't overdo it, because we don't know what the schemes will actually produce, and if you're going to that I'd er most of the schemes are limited to five thousand minimum. Erm, I'll have a look at some of the other... er things that you can do with your money, cos time's getting on.... Erm this is the inflation figures I talked about briefly. In nineteen eighty two, a loaf was thirty seven P and in ninety sorry eighty two, thirty seven P, ninety two, it's fifty four P and er I'm reliably informed by er my wife that you can actually get loaves less than that if you go to the... er large supermarkets where they're discounting the bread to get you in the store obviously. But that means that bread's not really gone up that much. Er beer, er seventy two pence in nineteen eighty, hundred and twenty eight pence ninety two. And you can see here the affect of er forty six percent increase in the price of bread, seventy eight percent on beer, eighty four on cars, and R P I has moved up seventy nine percent. So if you're R P I linked, not too bad. But those figures are tremendous compared to the figures I used to have, because we update these every two years, and the ninety ni eighty to ninety figures were poor, and the and worse than that between er er you know the previous two years. So don't think that they'll hold necessarily. Inflation, the effects on your pension, you've got the engineer on a level er annuity and the headmaster on er an index-linked annuity. Erm er in other words, index-linked pension, and he's n virtually doubled his money between nineteen eighty and nineteen ninety. And that means that er you know the indexation has actually worked very well.... Erm... so if you're getting another job obviously, you've got to think that you may not need as much income, er if you're taking the early retirement well obviously you may be more income dependent, and do a personal budget, going back to that pro forma, if you spend a bit of time doing a budget, you will find it beneficial. You'll know what you're spending, and where you're spending it, and you then control you p your finances a bit more accurately. Cos when you're working, you don't really have the time or the interest in actually seeing where the money goes. [speaker001:] Er can you tell me please er how I can avoid a particular charge. Erm I wanted to do a personal budget, so I went along to my bank and I said I want to close all the erm automatic payments that you make on my behalf. [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] And they said, sure, that'll be thirty pounds. [John:] Well don't you get a, a monthly statement? [speaker001:] Well, yes, but I wanted them to do me a list you see. [John:] Oh I see. [speaker001:] And I thought thirty pounds was rather a lot. [John:] Oh it is a, it is a, it is a lot of er money to pay, [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] I mean usually you can identify them from your bank statement. [speaker001:] I'll, I'll do it free myself. [John:] Yeah, it's a bit expensive [speaker001:] I was thinking if they would charge me fifteen, [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] I wouldn't, it would have saved me a chore,. [John:] Right. [speaker001:] But I thought thirty expensive. [John:] Yes. Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] The, the direct debits that you've been paying for years but you're not sure where they go to, that sort of thing? [speaker001:] That's right. [John:] Yes. Yeah. So this is not to do with the price of eggs, it's to do with erm eggs in one basket, and er obviously er the basic theory with any investment advice is don't put all your eggs into one area er in one basket if you like. If the ship goes down or the basket gets broken, that's what happens. Mixing the metaphors there, but er basically don't take a risk on one company or one product. And er keep a spread.... Erm, short-term investments, just a summary. bank accounts, building society, National Savings ordinary account, investment account, er National Savings, which isn't bad if you want small amounts of money invested but er access is a month. And TESSA. Now you're all familiar with TESSA, aren't you?... You all know what TESSAs are? Er Tax-Exempt Special Savings Account, from the, from the banks and building societies. You can invest up to nine thousand pounds over five years, er rates vary with the society unless you're lucky enough to have a fixed rate. And the return should be quite good because you're not paying tax on the, on the investment, if you cash early then you pay tax on it. So it's a five year investment. Er but if anybody's got TESSAs running at ma matur er er er retirement, I'll inevitably keep them going, cos they're normally half way through now, some people have made three payments with TESSA, there's only another two payments to make, that's only another eighteen hundred and then six hundred in the final year. So it's worth keeping those going. Er if you fully fund a TESSA at nine thousand, we'd estimate around eleven to twelve thousand back, and not the sixteen thousand that was projected at the top of the cycle about three years ago. Erm Leamington Spa ought to have been shot for their TESSA advertising. You know the people who rang me up to say hey sixteen thousand on nine over five years? Not bad. But of course they were quoting at the very top of Leamington's rate, and since then it's gone right down. In fact Leamington got a few things wrong, because they've now been taken over. Er, but erm... er nevertheless, the, the fact is that the TESSA is a good investment, providing that you don't need access to your money, and you're going to get a tax advantage from it.... Erm, capital bonds, they used to be good rates, they, they've deteriorated really, National Savings certificates well I've covered index-linked, the only one I'd really say er isn't super unless you're a higher-rate taxpayer is the fortieth issue, which is paying under six percent, it's not really worth picking up for five years. Gilts, complicated. Anybody into gilts? Anybody got? Yes, you've got the Jersey gilts haven't you? [speaker001:] No,. [John:] Did you buy yourself? [speaker001:] I bought three quarter percent [John:] Right. [speaker001:] seven. [John:] Right, you bought those through the National Savings stockrooms. Erm... yeah. Now er i i if you're buying gilts individually, you've got to know what you're doing unless you want to hang on to them to the end of the terms, cos gilts are government securities, and they have the different rate, rates of return, different maturity dates. And the only way to really run gilts if you're serious is to actually trade them. And a trade, trade in gilts is, is just as complicated as shares, not for the small investor. Now, I've got a retired accountant in Nottingham who spends his days trading gilts, but not what I'd want to do. But he's got all the charts and he knows what he's doing. But basically a gilt has got a fixed rate of, of value at the end and the beginning, so it's worth a hundred pounds day one, a hundred pounds day you know whatever,h how many days it's in force, if it's a five year gilt, it's worth a hundred, a hundred pounds then. In between it can vary, depending on interest rates and the market. So gilt traders actually s buy and sell gilts in order to make a profit. And er Sun Life who're a, who, who er you know are favourite for er for er gilts management, er er were busy buying index-linked gilts about twelve months ago when nobody wanted them. Cos th er index-linked gilts were po were we very poor, because against interest rates they didn't give you a lot of guarantees obviously, you know, interest rates were high, index-linked gilts were er already languishing. But I think they'll come up well in the next few years. But what they'll probably do is sell those before they actually reach their premium. They'll probably sell the gilts on then re reinvest in other investments. But it is complicated and I er mean really for the average investor, unless you're a non-taxpayer, because the in er the income from the gilts is gross, it may be worth er it may be worth a non-taxpayer holding gilts, and er getting a gross yield of maybe eight and a quarter, nine percent. That's, that's fine. But if you're trying to trade them, you come unstuck... cos you, you've got to make all sorts of er predictions about interest rates. Mind you you might be better than the Chancellor at that, but er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] you know. It's a difficult market that. So let's have a look at the effect, effect on in on building society investments and other inflation the effects on it. Erm, between nineteen seventy three... er and er nineteen ninety one, reinvestment in building societies gave quite a good return actually erm gave four thousand three hundred and ninety eight return.... Er R P I was five seven eight eight, so in, in other words, R P I ahead of building society rates. So in the longer term, building societies don't do well. You've had five years of phenomenal results in building societies, they've been really exceptional. But I think those days are now over... and anybody who's been in building societies, there's now a feeling er that things have altered quite a long way. Erm asset backed investment, well we've covered shares, investment trusts, P E Ps, property, gold coins. Don't know much about gold coins erm... I mean I suppose they're a tradable asset. But er I've just finished Treasure Island with my daughter, that's as far as I've got. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Erm. Er property, er very much a variable, you don't know where you are with property really. I mean it's, it's, it can be a good investment, and maybe the time is now to, to go for it, but of course, it's er hard to release er your asset if it's a falling market. Because people are finally trying to sell houses. Investment bonds we haven't covered, and they are a variation of a unit trust really, but they're issued by live companies, and you can do other things with them, and they have got tax advantages. One of the better ones at the moment are the with profits bonds, where you're guaranteed a re returns, rather like an endowment, if you buy it as a single premium again. And they are quite useful if you've come across those from Prudential, G A, [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] er they're quite useful. And good for income as well.... Er, comparisons on investment returns since nineteen forty five. If you had a thousand in a building society and a thousand equities, you'd be a very happy man in nineteen forty five I would think, but if you look at what happens between then... and nineteen ninety, the building society's written, risen by eight point nine times, and look at the equities, a hundred and eight thousand,... er that really is stunning, you know that, that re return on equities. But don't forget that those can always be in reverse, and if you look at the, there's a chart, which shows five year periods wh where shares didn't make any profits at all. We're just getting to the end of that now, we'll be another mark on the er five year list you know between eighty seven and ninety two. Well, you've probably lost or, or not gained on shares. But don't forget that over a longer period, shares are bound to do better. Because when there's inflation in the system, company values are inflated, company er profits are inflated, so companies go up with inflation. [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] So erm worth bearing that in mind. Er, adjusted for erm the R P I, one thousand pounds adjusted on a building society would have actually lost you money. Your thousand pounds would now be worth five hundred and ten, if you take the effect of R P I. And er I like to think that if you'd bought a nice full-nose Morris in nineteen forty five, and you wanted a replacement in nineteen ninety, you'd have still got a reasonable Metro wouldn't you? You'd have still got your wheels. So in that sense, the build the, the equities have kept pace, but if you think in the short term, you'll always be out of, out of order with shares, if you're thinking of going in for three or four years, you you're likely to get your fingers burnt. You've got to look at it at five years plus. And er management through er investment trusts, P E Ps, er and er share portfolios, the best way of achieving er security. Er this is just to show income from building societies during the seventy five to ninety period, and the yellow line shows a decline or at least a jiggly line, which just reflects interest rates, and the un unit trust income rising over that time is the orange line. Just making the point that in the early years, your income will be less, then there's a crossover point, because the value of the asset grows, and so does the yield on the fund.... Er these are guaranteed areas, annuities, local authority loans, which used to be popular, pay gross, but they're not around that much these days, they're not that competitive. And local co-ops sometimes offer good rates on, on fixed-rate deposits as well. But they've all fallen foul of erm low interest rates at the moment. So erm National Savings again worth, worth mentioning those... erm... deposit accounts not really up to much at the moment.... So annuities are very safe then, regular repayments, partly tax-free, but not available, once you've spent your money, that's it.... And you get part of your money back tax-free. Er P E Ps I've covered. And I just want to look at capital deployment here. I mean in summary, I, I'd say that this is the sort of thing they'd look for in a, in a portfolio. Some in immediate access, which is your building society, some back to back through either a an endowment scheme, or a P E P scheme where you've got the security of the annuity to back it. Then some National Savings, possibly some income bonds, and then onto the growth side which would be bonds, unit trusts, shares, P E Ps etcetera. So they're er the three blocks of er investment. And I'd even go, I think really you've got to look at it as sort of immediate-term, immediate access,... er medium-term investment, and longer-term investment over here. Cos even National Savings cycle over a five year period, and what you want to achieve is money coming back into your hands regularly over that period so you can take another look at what you're doing. So when I'm seeing clients mainly at the end of a, of a three year, fixed-rate deposit, again at five years when we get a National Savings maturing, and so on and so forth. And really that should be er a secure portfolio that you don't... need to worry about too much. It should actually pull through all your need. And on the building society side, that's your instant access fund,y anything you need in the meantime, if we've said that we want to achieve eight hundred a month income, and that's really the basic income, any holidays, any incidentals, come from this account. And er you know we keep the income steady on the other two parts.... Erm, so if you're looking for advice, independent financial advisers. Well, we deal with a wide range of different groups, and erm we've got to produce a best advice list, and er we try to find you the best contract available in the market. That doesn't mean we're always right, incidentally. Er but we try and eli eliminate the poorer companies, we try and make sure that we go for strength and security, as much as return. And er that means adopting the current market. Erm so... erm if you're looking for advice, er try to get sound, impartial advice, free and without obligation. And please get a written report, a proper written report. If you haven't got one, it's not worth proceeding. Because that written report is your evidence that they've actually taken information, analyzed it, and come back to you with a solution. And if there is anything that you want to discuss with your adviser, positive or negative later, you can go back to your report, say well this is what should have happened, and can you explain what is happening? So it's your document if you like. Only I've come across one or two head teachers who've taken out things like A B Cs recently, and they didn't realize that they wouldn't get a lot of value if they... cashed them early, you know, if they cashed them within two or three years. Erm one chap thought he could cash his A B C before his pension, and he'd actually bought a massive amount of A B C business, to retire at fifty five. And of course if he doesn't retire at fifty five, the authority or, or the school, his A B C's just destroyed his pension. And er I mean I tried to indicate you know to him that he could claim against the company and get his premiums back, but unfortunately, there was no letter and no i indication, and the person was no longer with the company. So it was his word against the company. And all the product details were there, I mean you know that all the product details would be in front of you, but whether you actually read the small print, it's, is, is, is the er is the issue really. And you can't get compensation for that. I mean I doubt it'll matter in this case, it's not that serious. But it was serious in the sense that he was given wrong advice. So make sure you're dealing with a company that's, that's... committed to what you know the market that you're in, that you're, you know, that you're familiar with the people that you're working with. Independent advice er comes from major brokers, the banks and building societies have come out of independent advice pretty well, because they've decided that it's expensive and a hassle, cos we're regulated all the time and of course it makes, we've, we've got to analyze the products on the market, so we've got to pay people to do that. So it is expensive, relatively. But, the banks and building societies ha have found that people didn't want independent advice, because they didn't ask for it. So now, unless you go in and actually bang on the counter, they'll give you the advice of their tied erm agency. Er I mean Standard Life for instance tied with the Halifax, G A with the Derbyshire, erm endless societies have tied. Er Bradford and Bingley I think have remained independent. Erm, but there are other organizations as well erm and er you see Nat West, you know you remember the man with the wings who used to walk round in the advert? You know. Well he's taken his wings off now and joined Clerical Medical. Er so er I mean the, the thing is that they, they, they a are in a position where they can improve their profits by er sectoring the operation. You'd do it if you were on a bank executive and you said well only five percent of people ask for independent advice, why do we bother with all that lot? You know. Er just make it available, if somebody asks for it, they'll go and drag somebody up to have a look at you, and they will keep er er they've made it so they keep an independent arm, but it's not the major part of their business. They are interested in volume, obviously, and that's what y that's what they're going to go for through their products. No that's no problem, except that you must know who you're talking to. Cos if you read adverts in the paper and things, you wonder who. [speaker001:] [cough] [John:] It says things like impartial advice, doesn't it for mortgages, erm in the Nottingham and the Derby paper, and then you read at the bottom it says erm an appointed representative of Legal and General. Well, you know I h I hardly think that's impartial. I mean, it will be, perhaps where they try and place the mortgage for you but erm I w I bet you they won't recommend anything but Legal and General when it comes to actually, you know, covering your mortgage. So, er that's the er point to ra er to, to make there. I mean we use Standard Life, we use Clerical, we use most of the major groups, erm but it's always a matter of trying to find the best contract at the time. I mean, at the moment, three or four groups are actually pushing up their annuity rates again er to get business in. So I'll probably use those three groups until they've got enough business and then they'll, they'll retract the rate, and I'll wait for somebody else to come along. So you know that's the way that the system works and we've got the choice to, to actually make those decisions. Erm it's er it's er entirely up to you obviously wh wh whether you take, where y you take your advice, but erm I would make the point that if you're retiring in the next year or so, erm best to take advice erm relatively early, you know maybe two to three months before you retire. You've then got the time to look at your report, decide whether it's suitable, perhaps have another chat with your adviser, and then at that stage you're ready to go ahead. Erm you know the difficult thing for me is when I'm working with people who've actually been given no notice at all, and that's happening with lots of organizations where on Friday you're suddenly told you've got no job, but your pension's available. Er they may have had some inkling, but you know they might have applied for a timings, you know it suddenly comes. And that's difficult, because you need a bit of lead in time to actually think it all through. The mistakes are made in investment terms when you actually rush at something, and you decide to go ahead and invest before you've really studied all the options. And then obviously once you've done that, you might live to regret it, in that erm the erm... the investment itself might not be suitable for you. So er take your time, and erm do l look at all the options in front of you. And just one final word of warning, and that is to do with newspapers. [cough] There's a lot of stuff in newspapers about you know erm er investments and what you can do with your money and... get the P E P with one and a half percent discount, and all the rest of it. Er but erm if you do er business through a paper, then nobody is responsible for the investment business that you do. I mean, nobody's there to back you up, if you need a, if you need any assistance, or it's or the company's not really bona fide then you've got no comeback. So I think you've got to look at this as er saying well, if you get external advice, at least you're covered and er I mean er if a, if a company's in difficulties, we perhaps would know before you would, erm that erm you know that we shouldn't really be investing with them. So I mean what you're getting is the expertise, and the, and the assistance of erm an external... adviser. Erm, if you want to know how a advisers are paid, erm you know then I er would explain that under the terms and conditions of er 's business, we're actually paid erm a salary by, and er I obviou obviously get er you know a car to get about in etcetera, but the, the, when we place business er the er commissions that we get, generate are paid to, they go down to head office in Bournemouth, they're then used to give us our er our you know returns, advances and what have you. So that's where the money goes. But don't forget that that is not an additional charge to you. So that erm I mean if I recommended a Norwich Union income plan, and you nipped into Nottingham to buy, the charge would be the same, whether you bought it from me or from Norwich. And er the, the difference is that I will know, at any one time, whether Norwich are offering you the best rate or not. And I can decide then on which o which company I'm going to use. Erm so you don't lose out by using an adviser. And where possible, we do try and pass on any discounts that are available to you. Er I mean if a particular group's promoting a product which we're already using, then I might switch investment to that product if there's a big discount. Because it's very competitive at the moment, and people are actually discounting charges quite regularly. And where that's available, obviously we'll pass it on. So erm er ongoing charges there aren't any. We don't l levy any charges for mon er monitoring portfolios. Er but we're not I must explain we're not discretionary managers. Now discretionary management is a another thing. I mean have you come across that? That's where you actually sign over er the management of your whole portfolio to another individual, as you would with a share portfolio with a bank. And that is a different matter, because you're then, they then make decisions on your behalf, and th they will actually move and, and, and reinvest er take commissions from some of those reinvestments and that's all going to them, and fine if they do the job. But you've got to think carefully whether, about whether discretionary management is really erm what you want. In the sense that you've got no control over your portfolio at all, and it's just invested and they give you a statement. Er, [speaker001:] Harriet Mason's supposed to have discretionary advisers. [John:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] in charge of. [John:] Oh right. Oh. [speaker001:] It's erm [John:] Yes. Yeah, yes. [speaker001:] They're not supposed to handle their own shares if they're in a position to have inside information. [John:] Yeah, well I mean, that's a, that's a difficult one, inside information, when you get down below the top ranks there are lots of people in the mid mi medium-ranks who would know about insider dealing, and I'm sure use it. But that's something we're not party to. Er but anyway, discretionary management can cost a lot of money, erm but you've got to weigh up whether it's actually worth it. I think in the case of share portfolios, you need a lot of money to make it work properly. And er you always want to look at the track record. I mean my belief is that if Standard Life and M and G can't show me a profit on a, a good managed fund, I doubt that anybody in a another institute is going to do any better. Cos er the, the people that run these funds are highly paid and highly experienced, and erm you know I don't think banks or building societies or any other institution is going to pay more, they're buying in their skills, the top offices. I mean that's just... view of it, erm and er I m obviously there are individual funds that perform very well, you know. And when you're getting advice, don't forget that erm if it's, particularly the, a single company, they will be showing you figures which actually show their products in a reasonable light. I mean, you would, wouldn't you? Er so er I mean they're going to show you the seven year figure, maybe don't show you the ten year figure, because they don't look too good over ten years. Erm so you can get those figures yourself from Money Management, and from er various erm newspapers, and you can actually check performances if you want to. But again, that's the sort of thing the we'd monitor. Erm, I, I'd like to thank you all for your participation this morning by the way, and I will give you out erm these reply if you'd like re erm a, an information pack from us, or if you wish to have a chat with me, then you can send in this, you can give it me back at lunchtime, and I can send it into the office, and they'll send you a retirement pack with an income planner and what have you. So if you'd like one of those. [speaker001:] Does your service offer a service? [John:] Er, yes it does. Erm in that erm er we've got facility to review portfolios. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yes. [speaker001:] what we're looking at again. [John:] Yes. Well that, that automatically comes up erm if erm you've got which are turning round, and ou our records will automatically show maturity dates etcetera. But I usually arrange with a client over what's seen in two years' time or one year's time, whatever. It's normally down to individual circumstances. [speaker001:] Are you on the phone? phone? [John:] Well yes. I mean you'll find that my home number's on here and tha because I will advise you from home during the week, I'm quite happy for for people to phone the home line.... Er but erm... obviously I'll sometimes need some time to get back to you. [speaker001:] ... [John:] Oh sorry.

[John:] first year of business or your first year of assessment, you made five hundred pounds profit from your... business, is that what you've got in mind? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] You might have bought capital... things, a van, tools etcetera, which might, just for example, cost you five thousand pounds.... Now in the in the first year of business, you'd be allowed capital allowances on that... which is m may well er varies i in the proportion, but just say... just say it's er ten percent, five hundred pounds, actually will you make that four hundred. And you get a ten percent capital allowance. For cars it's actually... quarter, twenty five percent on the reducing balance. So in that first year, at ten percent, you'd be given a capital allowance of five hundred pounds, to be set against a profit of four hundred pounds. So therefore you'd have no liability... but you'd have unused capital allowances to be carried forward to the next year. Now that wouldn't affect your pension at all.... No. At that stage. And, because you'd made a loss, you could, out of your taxed pension, introduce a couple of hundred pounds into the business as a capital in introduction, to keep the business running, and it wouldn't affect the profit figures at all. Is that right? [speaker002:] Yes. Well thank you. Would I actually get a tax refund [John:] You could. [speaker002:] on your loss, if you make a loss. [John:] Or if, if that had been... yes,i if you'd actually if you'd actually made a minus... there, ignoring capital allowances, you'd just made a loss of four hundred pounds, then that loss would be for a year of assessment, and in that year of assessment, it could be set against your salary or pensions for that year... a as if it was a personal allowance. [speaker002:] So it would be worth running a small... slightly unprofitable or non profit making business, to keep your tax bill down. [John:] Well, well yes, because [speaker002:] People do. People do For a year or so. [John:] Oh yes, this is what the big business people, why they run far why one of the big business people used to buy farms. He got the pleasure of farming, and the losses were merely set off against er [speaker002:] This is what used to upset the farmer down the road [LAUGHTER] [John:] who, who was a genuine farmer. a genuine farmer. Now then, I've made, oh er... before I go into the capital gains, er capital allowances you can claim a proportion of the capital allowances on a reducing balance, so er if a car for example costs you five thousand pounds, you'd actually be allowed twenty five percent in the first year, the twenty five percent would be reduced from five thousand, and in the next year you'd get twenty five percent off your balance until the five thousand pounds had been allowed against your profits.... So it er could pay you in the first year of business to incur any capital that you could afford, because you can either get it against your first year's profits, or by not using the capital allowances, it's available for subsequent years' profit.... Now then onto the capital, capital gains.... [speaker002:] Could I just say, if you're thinking about going into small business, for heaven's sake use the small business advice bureau. [John:] Oh yes, every time. Yes. [speaker002:] They are wonderful.. I mean you're entitle you've got three interviews free. [John:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And you only start paying after you, after the third one. [John:] Right. [speaker002:] And erm a lot of them are retired business men, or, or people still, people in business who give their time freely to it. [John:] Very good. Yeah. [speaker002:] And they are, they really work. [John:] Yeah.... One of the other items of expenditure that could be in this er... what did I say, five thousand pounds could be the... your outgoings of your home, because you've used the spare room as an office. Or a garage as a workshop or a, a workshop as a workshop. And you can claim that proportion of your total outgoing. [speaker002:] ... [John:] But if you've used a, a room at home, then you have to watch the capital gains situation, because if it's your residence, then for capital gains purposes when you sell it, it's exempt from income tax. But if you've used er part of it as a business, then that part isn't your residence.... So when, if, if you were to come to sell your residence, they would knock off that proportion of the total er er which could in fact give rise to a small capital gain... depending on how the er how you sold, because you might sell it at a loss. But if you've made up the gain at all, then since it's residential property, it's exempt. But that part of it which is used in your business... wouldn't be exempt, and could give rise to a gain. It's bound to be small, if it's a small part of your house. And in all, in most of those cases it will be covered by the individual exemption of five thousand eight hundred per annum anyway.... There's no real... I mean you'd have to be in a real big way of a business and use a large proportion of your house for the gain on that proportion to exceed five thousand eight hundred. So in most cases, you can ignore it. But nevertheless, we have to say that it's so. And furthermore, with the council tax, you could come up against the question of business rating for that.... [speaker002:] The other thing is you can claim an allowance for using your room against your tax, that's one of the things you can do of course. [John:] As I say, a proportion of the, of your total outgoings which... er related to that room, can be claimed as a business expense. Erm, wife's wages for answering the telephone. The phone of course is, is an allowed expense. [speaker002:] What if you don't use it full time? I mean are you allowed to claim for [John:] Well it, it's that proportion of business use. [speaker002:] I mean, you're only using it one day a week. [John:] Yes, yes. If, if you've got er a room, the re the tax inspector will say well, what proportion of the total would you say that room is? And if it's a quarter, [speaker002:] And you [John:] What? [speaker002:] and if you used it one day a week. [John:] Well, it's a er seventh of a quarter, if you. And that proportion is then allowed as a business expense. [speaker002:] These people, young people often, who do some childminding, if they take in children, [John:] Right. [speaker002:] is their house being used as a sort of business? [John:] It could be. It could be yes. [speaker002:] They could alter their tax status. [John:] Oh yeah, yes. If, if you're s setting up in business as a childminder, not doing it as a, for a friend, for just nominal expense. If you're attracting custom as a childminder, you really would be in business. And could then claim Pardon? [speaker002:] If you've got more than two, you are anyway. [John:] You are anyway yes. You, you really are, yes. You, you've co you've commercially organized yourself, therefore you're in business. In which case you could claim the proportion of the house on expenses.... Both the house expenses, the, the room and also provision of... food and cleaning things for the... presum for... because of the involvement with children. You could be providing meals for them, I dare say they do do they, with child? [speaker002:] Mhm. Yeah. [John:] In which case, they'd go down as well.. But it is this facility of er of you determining that an expense is, is generally for the business, therefore it can be claimed, so... [speaker002:] If you, if you go over the fifteen thousand turnover, [John:] Right. [speaker002:] how important or desirable is it to use an accountant? [John:] Er not at all, I wouldn't think. If you're rel if you're reasonably intelligent, no.... Because all, all an accountant will do, is work on the information you give him.... And he'll put it into a nice neat accountancy type form. But he can only, he can only do it on your information. [speaker002:] If you're fully aware of all the implications of the tax and what er allowances you can claim, then super. If you're not absolutely up to date, [John:] Oh yes. [speaker002:] your accountant is. The accountant will then earn his keep. [John:] That's right.... But in most small businesses it really isn't worth their while having accountants in. [speaker002:] Just keeping good accurate records. [John:] That's right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If, if your, if your total turnover was sixteen thousand, then the inspector of taxes would want from you an account which shows how your fifteen thou sixteen thousand has been arrived at, who's paid you this money... because he looks at those and he checks their accounts to see they've received it obviously, that's what it is, and wh how is your five thousand pounds made up.... And if y if of the five thousand pounds, for an extreme example, four thousand pounds of car expenses, he'd ask you in and say hello, what sort of car have you got then?... You know. But if it's a reasonable amount, say five hundred pounds, he would merely look at it and say fair enough. Not worth challenging.... Unless you. [speaker002:] If you've got four thousand pound car expenses, he might question where you're paying the car expenses to. [John:] Oh indeed yes. Yeah. [speaker002:] And whether you should be paying tax on it. [John:] That's right. Oh yes, yeah. Cos this is where the revenue gets its information about all sorts of tax. I mean if you're a builder and you receive sixteen thousand, of, of that there's a thousand pounds from Joe Bloggs builder whatnot, then the er the tax inspector will make a note, and pass on a little note to Joe Bloggs' file that, yeah he paid Bill Smith a thousand pounds, and i that then should appear in his accounts, and if it doesn't, then he's a ripe subject for being investigated. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So this is the thing you have to... have to bear in mind. This is happening all the time. Obviously you'd expect the revenue to do this, wouldn't you?... [speaker002:] Er the b the more you do in cash really, the more the tax inspectors look at it. [John:] Oh well, yes. Because the, you've no means of, of proving have you that I mean y er the best system would never be able to discover that er your figure of fifteen thousand pounds cash taken selling ice cream was genuine. [speaker002:] Except that you do work on proportions. [John:] Ye oh yes. There is there is, yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean if you're doing something like selling ice cream, [John:] Yeah, there is, there is yeah. [speaker002:] they have a lot of people which they say, you should make from. [John:] You should be making within, within that range, within that, [speaker002:] And if you're not, they want to know why you're not. [John:] But it's only if it's materially out.... If y you know if you're content to, to pocket five hundred pounds, they'll never be able to discover it in fifteen thousand. If you made er if you pocketed ten thousand, of course, it'd stand out a mile. Because you've not, you're not er in the same relative position as the next.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Anyway, I think I've dealt with that er er have I? Is that, is that good enough? [speaker002:] Yeah. [John:] But taking your point about er, you know you've got, you've incurred these expenses anyway, therefore at the end of the day, you're not that much better off than er [speaker002:] As I say, well if you do go into business on your own, be extremely careful if you are thinking of... [tape change]... [speaker003:] I wonder if I could go back to that point that er a couple of you raised this morning, about... the transfer assets into the wife's name. You raised it, didn't you, Bob? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] And I, I must admit, it left me somewhat confused.... And can I b make it quite clear, that if you transfer assets into your wife's name, it has to be a pucker transfer into her name. You can't retain control of it at all. And therefore it has to be a separate account. But what John was saying this morning, and I think it wasn't... with respect it didn't come over... clearly to me, as clearly to me as I would have liked, and I was... determined to point was, what John was saying, the transfer of that, if that's capital, the transfer of that capital should be made into the wife's account. The income from it is then the wife's, therefore, if it happens to be three four four five, it is completely free of tax, whereas left with the husband would be taxed. But then what he then went on to say was, that since only the wife would be able to spend from that account, then put the... money after it had been dealt with for the wife's tax purposes, into a joint account, on which both could draw. Knowing full well that a half would be the husband's, which would be taxable, the other half would also be the wife's, and would therefore be taxable if she'd already absorbed her three four four five. [speaker002:] You don't need the separate account, you just [speaker003:] You don't need a separate [speaker002:] to sign that's all. [speaker003:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker002:] If she gives you authority to sign on. [speaker003:] It was this separate account that confused me. [speaker002:] Er it did me. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean I [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] it got me,, I, I didn't say any more, but er [speaker003:] I, I'm sure it was because he realized that if it was a sole account, you wouldn't normally be able t a husband and wife wouldn't be able to draw on it freely, but as you say, you could. [speaker002:] Yeah, authority to sign. She just gives you authority to sign. [speaker003:] It has to be a genuine transfer of an asset. [speaker002:] It has to be in her name. Yeah. Erm mm. [speaker003:] Okay, I, I, I'm glad, I, I'm glad I was confused on that point, because if I hadn't been, I might not have... have er [speaker002:] I think he was worried about his ability to get his motorbike out. To get his motorbike out of his wife's [speaker003:] Yes, it was used in connection with that wasn't it? Er... Well, I'm going to leave it that... we're very very early, I hope [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I hope you don't mind. I don't think you do, but er I really we've, we've

[Sue:] Like normal people have their computers set up so that they print out. [John:] Before I went out, I [Sue:] You muck it up. [John:] I printed out [Sue:] On purpose. [John:] I printed out.... Didn't I? [Sue:] Yes I know but from Wor Works. [John:] No I didn't print out from Works, I printed out from Diary. I went into Diary and I printed out my appointments for next week. And I didn't get funny numbers and silly squiggles, cos I used a reasonable package and not WordPerfect.... So... what is your problem young lady? [Sarah:] Oh there's no problem with me. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Did you want to print, did you want to print something? [Sue:] Yes she's she's. [Sarah:] Yeah I'm writing a letter to mothers I'm writing a letter to mum... and I just wanted it to be. [John:] [LAUGHTER] She can read it from the screen, she doesn't need it printed out []. [Sue:] Yeah but she wants to [Sarah:] I'll write a letter to Chris [John:] And other people. [Sue:] Yes. [John:] Right. [Sarah:] Well Chris. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Not to other people. [John:] Right. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So, would we like to try printing something out from WordPerfect? [Sue:] Save that now Sarah. [Sarah:] finished. [Sue:] No but you save it before you finish. [Sarah:] Can I just finish my sentence please, [John:] Right. [Sarah:] so I know what I'm talking about? [John:] Yes. have I got to finish my sentence? [Sue:] How did your lesson go? [John:] I don't know. I haven't had time to think yet, I've only just got back in on the phone and sorting out the printer. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It was alright it wasn't, I wasn't I wasn't looking forward to it much, it was better than expected. I managed to c to cover virtually the complete G C S E chemistry course in an hour and a half.... And, actually it was more than an hour and a half. It was an hour and a half plus about ten minutes cos those C ninety tapes are about five minutes too long on each side.... [Sue:] Erm I'm afraid dinner's gonna be a little later than I anticipated cos that chicken is quite big isn't it? [John:] Mm.... [Sue:] Also we seem to be awfully short of knives. [John:] We are. [Sue:] I think they must in the van. [John:] I don't think so. I noticed there were very few there yesterday. [Sue:] I haven't got anything to do the vegetables with. [John:] There were some not too long ago but... [Sarah:] ? [Sue:] Well I think they're in the van John actually, or you've used them to stir paint with and other things. [John:] Could be. [Sarah:] Secretary. Is that how you spell secretarial? [John:] Yeah. [Sarah:] [cough] Yeah? Ooh! [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Sarah:] I was going secre [LAUGHTER].... Two more to go. [Sue:] John.... [Sarah:] Right. [John:] Okay. Would you like to save that? [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Do you know how, do you know how to save it? [Sarah:] No. [John:] How do you save it Sue? [Sue:] Well I I do F ten but er that may be set up differently you see. Everything has been changed. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] I would try F ten. [Sarah:] Just press F ten? [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] Mhm. If you don't know what to do... [cough] right. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] Now this is set up differently cos this is set up very sensibly, so that you can fill in who wrote it, when, what date and what it's about, and when you try and find it later it's easier to find instead of scrapping through lots of files that don't have a long document. [Sue:] Yes and also take long long time if you do the sort of... volume of work that I have to do. [John:] Now that's true. Okay. So the date [cough] document name. What do you want to call it? If you press N [Sarah:] N? [John:] N for name, it'll let you type in the docu document name. Erm what do you want to call it? [Sue:] Mumsy. [Sarah:] Letter to mum. Mum. Mumsy. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Call it mumsy then. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER]... [cough]... Is that how you say it? Mumsy? [John:] Well it's your word, you spell it the [LAUGHTER] way you want []. [Sue:] No that's fine. [Sarah:] M U M S Y. [Sue:] That's fine. [Sarah:] Mumsy. [John:] Right. Erm [reading] document type []. Oh so if you press enter it'll come down one line. [Sue:] Enter. That big key on the side. [John:] Or return. [Sarah:] That one? [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] And delete, delete to get rid of the S M.... That's it, that's delete, that one's backspace. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] And then if you put your initials. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] My initials. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER]... [John:] Without the full stops. [cough] So... that's it. [Sarah:] Shall I do it in capitals? [John:] If you, if you wish. How about S L P? [Sarah:] Why does everyone want me to put L in? It's really [John:] I only want you to cos it'll make it up to three. That's fine. Enter.... And then T for author.... S L P.... [Sue:] Enter. [John:] You can guess who the typist is. [Sarah:] S L P.... [John:] And what's the subject? S for subject. [Sue:] Letter. [Sarah:] Lett letter.. Letter.... Erm... [John:] [whispering] Okay []. And K for key words.... What are the key words? What are, what's the main point of the letter, what's it about? [Sue:] Love. [John:] Okay. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Luv L U V, or L A V as the young lady over here says. [Sarah:] L O V E. [Sue:] I said love. [John:] Did you love? [Sarah:] Enter. [John:] wicked woman and enter yes. Thank you. [Sarah:] What does abstract mean? [John:] Now enter again. [Sarah:] Oh. [John:] Now... [reading] document to be saved, C S U mark Sarah dot mum [], okay? Now enter again. Don't blame me if this ridiculous [reading] replace existing []? [Sue:] Yes. [Sarah:] press Y? [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [Sarah:] [reading] Saving []. [John:] And now try and print it. Now do you know how to print? [Sue:] Shift F seven. [Sarah:] Shift F seven. [Sue:] Shift, shift F seven. [John:] Hold down shift and keep it down and press F seven. And let's try and print one page. [Sue:] Right switch the printer on. [John:] Cos we're just going to practice. [Sue:] Switch your printer on.... black button at the side.... Right. [John:] Mhm. [Sue:] Now press. [Sarah:] I don't like these [LAUGHTER] high technology things []. [Sue:] Then guess one for page. [John:] Hang on, it's two for page actually. One is document press. [Sue:] Oh two okay yes. [John:] P for page. Some of us use numbers and that's probably why the printer prints out in numbers. Whereas I use letters.... Right... And what have you got? Right. [Sarah:] in a code. [John:] got lots of exciting stuff there. So what sort of printer do you think you're talking to? [Sue:] I checked it, it says it's [Sarah:] A dumb one. [Sue:] printing to that one. [John:] Right hold down shift F one. Hold down the shift and press F one. [Sarah:] I just did. Oh do you want me to hold [Sue:] You have to exit from that first if you want to [John:] Alright we'll, we'll use the [Sue:] do a different thing. [Sarah:] Pardon? [John:] F seven. Will that do? [Sarah:] With shift or not? [Sue:] F. [John:] No, just F seven on its own. [Sarah:] [reading] Save document []? Yes. [John:] [reading] Save document []? No. [Sarah:] No. [John:] Cos you've already saved it. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] You might as m [reading] exit WordPerfect []? No. Right. I don't know if we're going to be able to print anything here, but let's have erm F one for help. As it says up here, [reading] press F one for help [].... Press F one again.... And these are your function keys and what they do so if you ever need to know what to do, F one F one, and it tells all you need to know. What do we want to do? [reading] Set up []. So... shift and F one should give us set up, so first of all press enter to exit help. Now shift and F one. Right do we want to set up the mouse to display the environment, or what? I think it's environment. Never know with this. Try E for environment. [reading] Erm units of measure, alternate keyboards []. No I don't think it's this do you? [Sarah:] No. [John:] Okay so [Sue:] No it isn't. [John:] escape. Sue might know but she's not telling us. Erm [Sue:] It's set up printer. [John:] Right where, where is, where does that come under mouse, display, environment, initial settings, keyboard layout, location of files. So we're in the wrong set up. So escape from this and we'll go into initial set up I think. [Sue:] F sev [John:] F one F one. [Sarah:] Shift F [Sue:] Oh okay. [John:] Go on. Okay which one do you think it is? Try F one F one again and we'll get [Sarah:] Shift and F one? [Sue:] It's, no. [John:] No just F one F one. [Sue:] It isn't that. [John:] F one. Right, and that tells us [Sue:] It's shift F seven. [John:] Right shift F seven gives us print. Okay. Right okay. So [Sue:] Yes but it tells you all the facilities of print. [Sarah:] So F seven. [John:] So esc so enter to escape from help [Sue:] Enter to escape from that first. [John:] cos we're in help. And now shift F seven. [Sue:] Sh shift [Sarah:] Oh. [Sue:] F seven. [Sarah:] I haven't she pressed shift there we are. [John:] Right. [Sue:] Then just [John:] Now you're trying to save a document now. You didn't do what you thought you were doing. It said, save document, and it had a Y there, meaning it was going to do that if you pressed enter. You pressed enter. [Sue:] It doesn't on yours it does all this, before you can get into print. [John:] Does it? [Sue:] Yes it does John. [John:] Isn't it a swine? [Sue:] So what you just put there is nothing. [John:] Enter. [Sue:] You delete it. [John:] Just press enter there. Right. [reading] Document to be saved []? [Sue:] I, document to be saved, I normally just do F ten. [John:] Right. [Sue:] But when you do shift F seven for print on this it comes up with all this [John:] This is a this is a sidetrack. Jus just press enter and get out of this. [Sarah:] Error. [John:] [reading] Access denied [] that's alright. Erm escape.... Now try shift F se hold down shift and press F seven. And what did we want to do [reading] select printer [] looks like a good idea. [Sarah:] It's [John:] It's, it's selected a Panasonic [Sue:] Okay try that. [John:] K X P Eleven Twenty Four. Okay so press S.... [reading] I B M Proprinter X Twenty Four []. Now you've got your num-lock on. With the num-lock on every time you try and go to the cursor keys, arrow keys, you put peculiar numbers in instead. So take num-lock off. Go up one. And press enter and we'll now select an I B M Proprinter. That's done that and now print page. [Sarah:] Just [John:] P. [Sarah:] Put P. [Sue:] Put, put your, your printer on. Switch your printer on. [John:] Well it's not working very well. Okay. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Well this morning I dropped in my briefcase there, copies of things that I printed out, all lovely. [Sue:] Well what's gone wrong then? We didn't do anything. Did we? [John:] No. [Sue:] I've done, did nothing different to what I normally do when I [John:] When I normally do it, and it didn't do what it normally does. [Sue:] I haven't touched anything. Have I? [John:] No. [Sarah:] No. Do you want to have a go? [John:] Well I'll just do a little trick.... If you'd like to get into, if you move over that way. Now if you'd like to get into the print menu again. Remembering how you did it, with a little help from your friend over here. And set it back to a, to a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four, which will be on the list. And Sue will tell you how to do it. And I'll set this up so it thinks it's a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Won't I?... [Sue:] Shift F seven.... [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] What's it say? [Sarah:] It says [reading] creation date, document name [], document summary in other words.... [John:] Enter.... [Sarah:] [reading] Document to be saved []? [Sue:] Okay just press enter. [Sarah:] [reading] Access denied []. [John:] [reading] Access denied []. Escape.... [Sarah:] Oh. [Sue:] Erm... Do F seven. [Sarah:] Shift as well? [Sue:] No. [Sarah:] [reading] Save document yes or no []? [Sue:] Yeah. Enter enter enter. What does it say now? [Sarah:] [reading] Document summary []. [printer sounds] [John:] Okay? Do try and print it again. [Sue:] We're trying to sort it out.... [John:] Shift F seven four to resume printing. Shift... F seven four. Right. So let's cancel the print job we've got in. Should we? [Sarah:] Yeah.... [John:] Star is all jobs. All jobs, just enter S.... Cancel jobs. [reading] Cancel which jobs []? Star. [Sue:] Three. [John:] [reading] Cancel all the jobs []? Yes. Now they should all be cancelled. And select printer. Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four and enter.... Okay. Print page, P. [Sue:] Am I too heavy? [Sarah:] No no. No. [cough] [John:] And we've got that document in at the moment. We don't want that. So, we'll use the big. [reading] Exit WordPerfect []? Yes. [reading] Cancel print jobs []? Yes. So that's just got out of WordPerfect. We'll have to get back into WordPerfect and load your file. And print it.... W P.... [Sue:] F five.... [John:] If you do end it should go down to the end....... Do you know the file number? [Sarah:] No. [John:] Right well let's start [Sue:] Wait a minute, wait a minute. Now just don't get snappy. [John:] Pardon? [Sue:] Don't get snappy. [John:] I hadn't noticed that I was. Did you think it was me getting snappy?... So... if you can try and explain to Sarah what you're doing, she'll know how to do it next time. [Sue:] I don't know myself. [John:] Ah well.... So.... The file extension, the one, one which I saw was dot mum. So if you set file mask and look for files ending dot mum it should pull it out. [Sarah:] It's nice and warm on that. [John:] Mm.... [Sarah:] Sit in the chair.... Sit on the chair.... Mother.... [whispering] Sit on the chair [].... Mum.... [Sue:] [whispering] [] [Sarah:] Well what?... [Sue:] [whispering] The file []. [Sarah:] Why don't you sit on the chair and do it? [Sue:] Come on.... [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] Can I stick the telly on mum []? [Sue:] You've created a used directory. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER]...... [John:] You know I sometimes find with some of my students it is very counterproductive to have their mother in on the lessons. You know they get all ratty sometimes.... Yeah yeah I know you find it hard to believe but they do. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Have you found that file yet? [Sue:] No. [Sarah:] Would you like me to find it?... Have you got any idea what you called it? Sarah. [John:] Why don't you use Ferret, and find any files written today.... So if you come out of WordPerfect. [Sue:] Well it might [John:] If you boo has that been booted up with that in? [Sue:] how do you mean? No. [John:] The computer's switched on when that's pressed in. Cos I haven't checked your [Sue:] No no no. [John:] rubbishy thing for viruses. [Sue:] No. [John:] Okay. Right. No save, get out of WordPerfect. [Sue:] It's rubbish WordPerfect. [John:] Isn't it? Right.... You just enter. Jus just Ferret and it'll tell you what to do. Make sure you're in C colon backslash. Are you? No.... Well it doesn't make a lot of difference, but er it might be an idea to be in C colon backslash. And then what do you do? Set a floppy disk. [Sarah:] Do I just do C colon? [John:] C D... space... backslash... enter. And your prompt now says, check that your prompt is C colon backslash. [reading] Set a floppy so it can be written to in drive A.... Ferret needs to know the date a file was written []. So you now type F three will do instead of typing Ferret. No sorry. Yeah type Ferret. And then today's date, which is [Sue:] Backslash. [John:] No. [Sue:] Space. [John:] Space.... Today's date, which is? [Sarah:] O nine. [Sue:] O nine. [John:] O nine... slash... No not backslash, slash.... O nine slash O four slash ninety three. And that should find all files written today. It'll pull out quite a lot of erm....... Now just say no. It's in the instructions there, say no to all these. But if a file comes up that looks like Sarah's file, and you fancy copying it to that floppy you can say yes and it'll copy it on there. [Sarah:] Okay. [John:] And the other thing is were you running from the hard drive or from that floppy?... [tape ends]... cos I didn't want the tape-recorder travelling. people are like.... Right you don't want that one.... Or that.... Or that.... Have you got the right date? Well hang on don't get rid of that what's on the screen.... W P fifty one.... Well press F three.... Is it the ninth of the fourth? [Sue:] Did you check the date? [John:] Is it the ninth of the fourth ninety three today? [Sarah:] Friday April the ninth. [John:] Which is the ninth of the fourth eighty three in English format. Okay. I wonder if it does it in American format. It's always worked before. Right it's going to do it ninth of the fourth ninety three. Okay, [reading] mirror file []? No. You could sit down if you want. [Sue:] I prefer this cos it makes my back ache. [John:] Okay. [reading] Mirror back []? No.... And it's off through the directories now.... [reading] Works ini []. No. [reading] Works Alarm []. No. [reading] Anything in Works []. No.... [reading] P F M []. No. These are all my diary files, P F M. So that's another no. Anything in P F M [Sue:] Oh wait a minute perhaps it was on the A drive. [John:] Perhaps it was.... It's not P F M.... Not that.... Or that.... Or that.... No.... Saying no. [Sue:] try the A drive is that okay? [John:] Well I'll try the A drive. Erm I don't know how Ferret works on the A drive. [Sue:] Oh I've used it on the A drive before. [John:] Is there a copy of Ferret on that? [Sue:] I don't know. I don't know on that. [John:] Oh okay I've got an idea how to use Ferret I think. Carry on. Right. So if you change to the A drive.... Erm just A colon. [Sue:] Oh.... [John:] Right and now if you type, I don't know where Ferret is. Erm try, try, try Ferret and today's date. Ferret space today's date and see if it can find anything.... Right erm version of Ferret okay. So let it go.... Let's look it up on C drive. Erm no we don't want that so just keep saying no. Or you can do control and C and it'll finish it off. Hold down control, press C, and that interrupts the batch file. Right I will have a little look, do you want to have a little look? [Sue:] I'll have a look. [John:] On the A drive D I R. [Sue:] Oh dear....? [John:] No backslash I'm sorry slash [cough] I'm sorry about that. D I R slash S, which gives you sub-directories. [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] Erm slash O minus D. That one should be O not zero. Slash order minus D, which is reverse date order. [Sue:] Okay. [John:] Erm slash P. So it'll pause and show it on the screen. Okay see what that finds. Anything written today? You're just looking for a date of today. No [Sue:] Not there. [John:] nothing on there. Okay.... Nothing there, they're all twenty firsts....?... No nothing on there..... Anything there on the mon There's one, Sarah mum. That's the one. So you are in C S U [Sue:] done that. [John:] Hang on, hang on. You are on the A drive. That's why we couldn't find it on C drive. [Sue:] Ah yeah that, sorry about that [John:] And it's in C S U large and it's [Sue:] Yes. [John:] called Sarah dot mum. [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] So press any key to continue just to finish that out. Finish that off. And then, if Sarah'd like to go back into WordPerfect, you find her file which is in A colon backslash C S U backslash large Sarah dot mum.... Okay? So if you'd like to move out of the seat, Sarah can come and find her own file. You don't W P from there. Do we? You're still on the A drive. [Sue:] No that's what I want...... I'm tired now. [John:] I can tell that, you were tired before. [Sarah:] Mm so am I, my eyes are killing me. [Sue:] Right F five. [John:] What does that do? Tell her what it does. [Sue:] Brings up your list of files. All the files that you've got on the A drive. [Sarah:] Ah. [Sue:] Which is the floppy disk which is in there. We weren't working on the hard drive. [John:] Right if you have a look at what has come up on the screen, on the screen. [Sue:] You got C S U. So if you end right backslash'll take away those stars.... Type in large. [John:] Hang on can I just interrupt here? You're on the C drive. [Sue:] Oh [Sarah:] Oops. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Sorry. Erm get out of that. Okay. [John:] Right. [Sue:] Okay let's get out of that. [John:] Now hang on you're, you're there. [Sue:] I'm not. [John:] Yes you're in the current directory. Erm [Sue:] I'm on the C drive. [John:] Yes well go up to the parent.... Right now [Sue:] And again. [John:] where the, where the, where it is, where the cursor is at the moment, press delete to get rid of the C. And then type A to replace it. And now press enter and you'll get a directory of what's on the A, there it is, the A drive's chuntering away.... Right. Now you want to go into the C S U directory, which is highlighted. So you just press enter. [Sue:] So you just press enter. I say return sometimes [Sarah:] Mm. [Sue:] And again. [John:] Ah okay. You have to do everything twice in this. [Sarah:] Ah well. [John:] Now you want to bring your cursor down till it points to March.... [Sue:] And enter. [John:] Any intelligent word processor you could type M and it would whiz down to the March. [Sue:] Right. Now [John:] Now we have to press enter again. [Sue:] Yeah. I, well yeah okay. [John:] And now [Sue:] There we are Sarah. [John:] you've got one called Sarah dot mum. [Sue:] And that's the back [John:] Which you and you've given it an extra name of mumsy S L P. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right and you can load that file. You've also got a back-up file called Sarah dot P K shriek. Which it saves just in case we had any accidents, and lost any of our files anywhere. So if you'd like to bring it down to mumsy sleep. [Sue:] With the cursor key. That's it and, and enter [John:] And then enter. To load that file. But that doesn't load it, that just has a look doesn't it? [Sue:] That just looks. [John:] Now that tells you that's, is that the right one? Is it [Sue:] Yes. [John:] a letter? [Sue:] Yes. [John:] Right okay. So escape. [Sue:] Es escape. [John:] To get you out of that. [Sue:] Now R for retrieve. [John:] retrieve your file. [Sue:] There. [John:] And now you can try and print it. Can you remember can you remember the [Sue:] Remember how to print things? [Sarah:] finished it. [Sue:] Oh haven't you? [John:] Doesn't matter we'll just try, we'll just do a little [Sarah:] right okay right okay. [John:] We're testing the printer at the moment. [Sue:] What do we do to print? [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] We press F one F one. [Sue:] F one. [John:] F one. [Sue:] F one. [John:] And then up there [Sarah:] And press [John:] to see which one to print. [Sarah:] F seven. [John:] Right. [Sue:] No shift F seven. [John:] Right. Top one is control, the next one is alt [Sue:] That's your control key [John:] and that one is shift. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] which you mustn't touch unless you're very sure of what you're doing. [Sarah:] Okay. [Sue:] The control key. [John:] So so that, that one is print F seven. So first of all enter to get out of help, and remember that you want [Sarah:] Cos you're in help. [John:] shift F seven. [Sarah:] So you press shift F seven and [Sue:] And [Sarah:] you press two for page. [John:] No P for page even. [Sue:] I do two. [printer sounds] [John:] So we'll get into [Sarah:] We've got lots of letters. [John:] We've got lots of letters. We'll get into the... [Sue:] Print set-up. [John:] print set-up. [Sue:] Right. F seven. [Sarah:] And again. [Sue:] No. Oh. Okay try.... And again.... Okay and again.... Enter.... And again. Oh yes. Yeah good girl.... Erm [key sounds] [John:] Ooh ah I've just... So what are we doing? [Sue:] I don't know but I'm getting pretty fed up with this. [John:] Okay well we're supposed to be getting into... selecting the printer.... You seem to be looking for a file, and you should be selecting [Sue:] I'm, it's a very, I'm not used to this set-up here and I, I'm [John:] There's very little difference in what you're doing now. [Sue:] Well there is a fair bit John because I don't seem to have all this round about way at work to be honest with you. [John:] Well. You don't do it properly at work. [Sue:] Well I'm used to it now. So that's the way I like it. [John:] Okay.... Retrieve. And that's... right. [Sue:] Right. [John:] Now [Sarah:] F seven. [John:] you want to set up the printer. Okay? [Sarah:] Right now press [Sue:] Select printer. Is that what you mean? [John:] Right so press S for select printer. And we're on an H P Laserjet Two D for some reason. [Sue:] Well that's the one I've got at work you see. [John:] Right [Sarah:] Right so [John:] which is this is not an H P Laserjet Two D. [Sue:] That's not a laser printer. [John:] It's picking up its printer driver from your disk which you had in which [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] is why we're having a lot of problems with this. [Sue:] Alright okay. [John:] So if we set your disk. Now before you do anything, if we set... set it to pick up the Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four [Sue:] Mhm. [John:] from there, [Sue:] Mm. [John:] it'll muck up your disk for work. And when you try and print out on your H P Laserjet Two D [Sue:] Oh that's right. [John:] You will get rubbish coming out like this. [Sue:] That's right. [John:] So what I suggest is that we [Sue:] We copy it. [John:] copy that file that we've got loaded. So don't bother about selecting printer. Let's leave [Sue:] Leave it on the Laserjet. [John:] the printer there, as it is. And we'll escape from that okay? We'll escape from that, and we won't do anything. We've got the file ready now. So let's save it. On the C drive. Okay? [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] And then we'll print it from the C drive with WordPerfect loaded from the C drive. Cos when you loaded this you were in the A drive. [Sue:] Yeah okay. [John:] Okay. So save your file [Sarah:] I'm glad you know. [John:] Save your file again. [Sue:] Okay. [Sarah:] Right so F seven [Sue:] F seven or I do F ten.... Right. [John:] One document named mumsy yes? [Sarah:] F ten again? [John:] No just enter. [Sue:] No just enter. [John:] It's asking you for a type. S L P. [Sue:] Enter. [John:] Enter. [Sue:] Just enter. [John:] [reading] Document to be saved as []? Now don't save it yet. [Sue:] Saved. Now... delete that, delete that A. [John:] Not a backspace delete but a delete. And [Sue:] C. [John:] And enter. Well that was quick it saved it on the C drive. [Sue:] That's very quickly it went on to the hard [John:] Now. [Sarah:] Right yeah. [Sue:] disk that's in there. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] So come out of WordPerfect now. [Sue:] F seven. [John:] [reading] Save document []? No. [Sue:] [reading] Save document []? No. [John:] [reading] Exit WordPerfect []? Yes. You said no. You have to read what's at the bottom. [Sue:] So do F seven again. [John:] Okay and read what's at the bottom. [Sue:] Okay [reading] save document []? No. [John:] Okay. [Sue:] And we come out of WordPerfect now. [John:] So. [Sue:] Yes. [John:] You want to exit WordPerfect. [Sue:] Y. [John:] Y for yes and why not? [Sue:] And that comes out of that. [John:] Now we take that floppy out. [Sue:] Yes. [John:] And change to the C drive so if you type C col [Sue:] C D. [John:] C colon. [Sue:] Oh. C colon. [Sarah:] On the next line or [John:] Just no C colon. [Sue:] No just there. [John:] All one line. [Sue:] Shift that's two dots. [Sarah:] Oh right. [Sue:] That one's two dots [Sarah:] Right. [Sue:] Enter. [John:] Enter. We're on the C drive. C D C D backslash. [Sarah:] C D. [John:] C D backslash. [Sue:] Backslash. No. [John:] Backslash is bottom left. [Sue:] No backslash that's that. [Sarah:] Oh right yeah. [John:] Okay? And enter. [Sue:] Enter. [John:] And now have a look at your prompt, and we're on the C drive, and we're in the root directory. [Sarah:] . [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [] [John:] I do, I know I sends tingles down your spine. Now if you'd like to type If you jus just carry on don't, don't mind us this often happens. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] If you, if you 'd like to type W P, for we're perfect. Or something like that. [Sarah:] Yeah enter. [John:] And enter. You never know what'll happen. [singing] Beach ball beach ball [] Now what's the date? [Sarah:] Please check date. It is, if it is wrong hold down and press C. [John:] Hold down control and press. Now is the date correct? [Sarah:] Yes. [John:] Okay just press enter or space or any key. And off it'll go and you're in WordPerfect. [Sarah:] Right. Now we've gone to a blue screen. [John:] Right. So you load your file. F one F one. [Sarah:] F one F one. [John:] And which of those will load your [Sarah:] F seven. [John:] File for you? [Sue:] F five. [Sarah:] F five sorry. [John:] F five. [Sarah:] Shift or no shift? [Sue:] Just [Sarah:] F five. [John:] Well first of all, first of all you're in you're [Sue:] Press enter to s exit help. [Sarah:] Right. [Sue:] Now F five. [John:] It gives you a list of files. This time. [Sue:] Enter. [John:] Now it's going to give you a list of the files in C [Sue:] C. [John:] colon [Sarah:] Right yeah. [John:] backslash C S U. Which is what you want. [Sarah:] Go down to large. [John:] Yeah. [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] Down to large. See if she's in and [Sarah:] Enter. [John:] and sorry no and retrieve. If you enter [Sue:] You'll just get to look at the document you can't work [Sarah:] Oh right [Sue:] on it or anything. [John:] So R for retrieve.... [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Oh I know because there's more to, there's files in it. And you have to come into it. [John:] There you go. [Sarah:] Right go down to mum. [Sue:] Go down to mum. [Sarah:] Now R. [Sue:] R. [Sarah:] Now end. [John:] And now you can [Sarah:] And now [LAUGHTER] [John:] F one F one to see how you print. And what do you use to print? [Sarah:] Erm shh enter to get out of help. [John:] Okay [Sue:] Yes. [John:] well first of all before you get there [Sue:] Well shh shush let her speak. [Sarah:] Enter to get out of help. [Sue:] Yes. [Sarah:] And then shift and F seven. [Sue:] Good girl. [John:] Excellent.... [Sarah:] And then you go to pa [Sue:] Two. [Sarah:] Two. Page two. [Sue:] Oh page sorry yes. [John:] Much easier to remember than two. [Sue:] the figures.... Ooh. [Sarah:] And we're still not printing. [John:] I would think that your rubbishy version of WordPerfect is thinking it's an H P Laserjet. [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] Right. So if you'd like to get out, of come out of Word oh first of all [Sue:] I think I'd better go and check the chicken now. [John:] reset, let's select printer. So F one F one to tell us what we use to select the printer. [Sue:] Do you know my hot. [John:] Which is the [Sarah:] Mm so's mine actually. [John:] Shift F seven. So enter to get out of help. Shift F seven. And select printer. [Sarah:] And select printer. [John:] Because this has all been mucked up too. This [Sue:] Right. [John:] also thinks it's an H P Laserjet Two D now. So let's set that. Bring it down a bit to a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] and enter. Right it should now [Sue:] page [John:] and now if you try and... page it might work. I don't know.. [Sue:] Ah there we are. [John:] Now it's all because somebody has been messing about with. [Sarah:] Wasn't me. [John:] All that messing about getting the printer to change was, came from not knowing where you are. That's enough of that. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] So that works. [Sarah:] As long as we know now that it works. [John:] That works. Erm [Sarah:] I want to finish off the letter now anyway. [John:] The formatting looks a bit erm a bit silly doesn't it? So we'd better, we'd better sort that out a bit. Erm first of all we'll get this ready... for head of the form. So we'll just use the line feed one at a time. Until it comes up to the next page.... And we want that, there's the head of the page. We want that just about on the black line. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] At the bottom of the black. So just there. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] And we put that in cos otherwise that'll come down and get jammed in the printer head. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] Now at the moment it's still got its headed form set, up here somewhere. So switch the printer off. And when you switch the printer back on, wherever it is when it's switched on, it thinks that's the head of the form. That's the top of the piece of paper. [Sue:] Right. [John:] So switch it on again now. And next time you print it should think it's a K X P Eleven Twenty Four and it should think it's at head of form and print everything out beautifully. [Sarah:] So I can finish off the, I want to finish off the letter now. [John:] Now on that letter... how was it printing out? You've got margins set at looks like one point three inches on the left and one inch on the [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] That's okay. Erm have you put tabs in here or spaces?... [Sarah:] Erm [John:] If you do F eleven... it'll show all the characters. It shows you what you've got here. You've got hard returns, soft returns... [whispering] soft returns [] so you've got spaces in here. Erm did you want your spaces in? I mean some of them have got spaces and some of them haven't. [Sarah:] Well it was like a new paragraph but I didn't leave a line. new paragraphs. [John:] Oh okay. So if you go down to where you've got new paragraphs, and just do enter. blank line if you'd like to go down and first of all F eleven to gen to get rid of these codes. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] And then you've got it back the way it was. You can just come down to everywhere you want a new [Sarah:] Using this cursor? [John:] Yeah using that. Or that one or the mouse. Now home.... Erm now... What have you got there? Have you got spaces? Take out that.... to there. Er don't take it to the I. Leave it to the. Leave it set hard against the left. Don't bring it over to the first character, leave it exactly where it is. Because [Sue:] Why? [John:] otherwise you'll put a few spaces then a new line and this will go. [Sarah:] Right so you just press enter. [John:] Okay. [Sarah:] And the bring it down. [John:] Mhm. Sue's version at work is set up very unprofessionally. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] Mhm []. [John:] Erm now right, now see what you did.... End will take you to the end of that line.... If you press delete, [Sarah:] Right. [John:] . Now what you did [whispering] silly thing []... [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] []... [John:] . You where there and you pressed enter. What that does it puts a blank line in, immediately before that word. You want the blank line there [Sarah:] Oh right yeah. [John:] before the other [Sarah:] Okay. Right. Okay. [John:] Okay. And if you press end, it should take you to the end of the line [Sarah:] Alright okay I'll just finish it off. [John:] Take your time. [Sarah:] ... [John:] You can do a preview of it. [Sarah:] What do you mean? [John:] Erm can you remember how to do print? [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] What was that? [Sarah:] Erm N no F seven shift [John:] Or was it shi [Sarah:] F seven. [John:] Shift F seven, good. Okay shift F seven. And now [Sarah:] Select printer. [John:] view view document. V. No don't select printer [Sarah:] Oh. [John:] cos we've had problems with that [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] V for view document. That's what your letter's going to look like when it's printed. [Sarah:] Alright yeah. [John:] So you've got nearly a page there so you could [Sarah:] Yeah, yeah. [John:] put another paragraph or something in. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] And then it'll be ready for printing out. [Sarah:] Alright. [John:] So if you escape, you'll, actually, while you're in there, if you want to have a look at two hundred percent. Try two for two hundred percent. You can read it a bit more easily. [Sarah:] Oh. [cough] [John:] if you escape. Erm after that, [reading] dear mum [], okay escape again. Back into your document, and we'll go up a bit.... Dear mum, end. And put another new line in there. you should have a new line. [Sarah:] What enter? [John:] Yeah. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] Okay. And now get down to the end of the document. [Sarah:] Alright.... [John:] You can do it quickly with page down page down. [Sarah:] Right. Erm... And I use that one to go onto a new line don't I? [John:] Right. [Sarah:] Erm [John:] Yeah. [Sarah:] Mhm. Erm [John:] Now, do you want a blank line? [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] So another new line, another enter. [Sarah:] Oh right. [John:] These, these two keys produce exactly the same effect. [Sarah:] Okay yeah. [John:] They both enter new lines. [Sarah:] Right. Erm... [John:] Now do you mind if I read this or not? Would you rather I didn't read it? [Sarah:] No I don't mind, no I don't mind. [John:] Okay. I'll show you how to spell check it.... [Sarah:] Just gen general gossip really [LAUGHTER]...... [John:] We're just going to spell check it now. Just finishing off. We've had a preview to see what it looks like. It fits on the page. [Sarah:] As well, is it two words or one? [Sue:] Two words. [John:] Two words. [Sue:] Well it's my day off tomorrow from cooking. [Sarah:] I know I was just gonna quickly do this and I'll come and help with your dinner. [John:] So enter enter. I think it's quickly done itself actually. It u usually does. [Sarah:] erm ooh gone too far there. Erm... [John:] Try tab it's much quicker.... [Sarah:] Where's tab? Oh. [John:] Tab tab tab. [Sue:] I think Sarah would pick this up quite quickly you know. [John:] I think she would pick it up ver is picking it up quite quickly [Sue:] Yes. [Sarah:] Erm [Sue:] and would do very well at it if it was a sensible package and not the rubbishy WordPerfect. Yes it isn't it really John. [John:] No.... [Sue:] I mean I'm fairly used to what I've got at work now. Because I virtually use all the same functions, all the time you know. [John:] Yeah.... capital Xs. It's alright leave that. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER]... [John:] you're going to write Sarah? [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] Okay so let's [Sarah:] Bring it back to the top. [John:] just spell check the whole document. So F one F one. And where's it tell you about spell checking? [Sarah:] Erm I can't even see. Oh sorry F two. [John:] Right. [Sue:] It's control F two. [John:] Okay so it's F, it's the top one of the four. Which, and this one tells you how to interpret them. So, and they're all in different colours as well. So it's control and F two. So first of all have, read, read the instructions on the screen. [Sarah:] Press enter to help. Control and F two. [John:] Right.... [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] And now again the instructions are on the bottom line. You've told it to spell check. Do you want to spell check one word, a page, the whole document or what? [Sarah:] The page. [Sue:] No. [John:] We'll do the whole document. [Sue:] Oh right. [John:] So D D for document. Right now [reading] forty two A []. Okay ignore that. [Sue:] Skip. [John:] Ignore numbers. [Sue:] It's skip on that John it's not ignore. [Sarah:] So I just press two? [John:] Right well hang on there was a little difference of opinion there. Ignore numbers will ignore all numbers throughout the document, and in case there are any others in there. Skip will just skip what we were ignoring. So skip again. Skip. It's saying Sussex isn't a word that I know about. [Sarah:] Oh right. [John:] It's not in its dictionary. It doesn't mean it's spelt incorrectly. [Sarah:] Did you put the words in? [John:] No. [Sarah:] Oh. And press two again? Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [Sarah:] And again. [John:] And it'll find the next So skip again for ninth. It's Right now it's suggesting words. [Sarah:] Oh it's, oh yeah. I got it wrong. [John:] Right so which do you think it should be? [Sarah:] A. [John:] A. Okay so if you type A, it will put weird in. Now Hastings, what are you going to do with that? [Sarah:] Erm nothing, cos it's right. [John:] Yeah skip. Right coursework? I think you can put it as one word if you like. It probably wants it hyphenated but we'll just say skip, if you're happy with the spelling. Halt. Okay yeah. [Sarah:] Yeah that's right. is right. That's right. [John:] No. [Sarah:] Got a hyphen? [John:] Yeah it hasn't, didn't have a hyphen but argue that's okay.... Now how do you spell keyboard? Let it suggest, oh it's not suggesting anything. Well isn't that weird? [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It hasn't got any suggestion for keyboard. Right so we'll have to come back to keyboard and you can change it, I think. Can you edit? Four. [Sue:] Yes. [John:] So you just move your cursor along. after that O and before the R. [Sarah:] How do you spell keyboarding then? [John:] It's got an A in. Before between the O and the R. [Sarah:] Oh of course it's A isn't it? And again or do I put A [John:] And again. [Sarah:] and then put A. [John:] And you have to insert it before where you've got the cursor. So put the A in before the R. But you don't want a capital. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] Backspace. [John:] Backspace delete. Okay. [Sarah:] keyboarding wrong. [John:] Exit when finished. You know it's a very helpful thing, it doesn't tell what exit is. So you're stuck there for life unless a young lady from the audience can help us out here? [Sue:] Oh you just [John:] Exit it says. Press exit. We've finished editing we want to get back in [Sue:] F seven. [John:] Okay. [Sarah:] No. [Sue:] You've got your F eleven up have you? [John:] No. [Sue:] No it's still going. [John:] It does that in spell checking. [Sarah:] Now I. [Sue:] Okay. [John:] So you can skip that now.... And it's, it's checked the lot. [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] So independence was right. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? And it's found, it's found most of your spelling errors and it's counted the words for you. There were four hundred and fifty three. [Sarah:] God it's like an essay. an essay. [John:] Now one of the things it didn't do, was it didn't pick any of your grammatical errors out. [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] Erm what it counts as a spelling error is if the word isn't in the dictionary, it's a spelling error. Now if you use T H E I R when you should be using T H E R E, [Sarah:] Oh yeah. [John:] it doesn't throw it out as a spelling error cos it counts it [Sue:] Oh right because it's a recognized word. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] But you can get grammar checkers which would check that and throw it out and say that's not right. So any key to continue. And you do have a T H E R E or something up there. So if you go, if you page up several times to get to the start of the document. [Sarah:] Page up? [John:] Which is that one [Sarah:] Oh sorry. [John:] Okay page up. Now somewhere, I think near the beginning there was a there. So it's not in that lot so page down to the next one.... Erm right, [reading] when there are [], is that correct? [Sarah:] No. [John:] No. So put your cursor on the I. Get rid of the I R.... [Sarah:] Oh. [John:] Okay that was a space. So backspace delete to get rid of the space you've just put in. Use your cursor to come along. That's it. And... delete. [Sarah:] Oh.... [John:] Then go along one and. [Sarah:] Alright and bring the cursor down. [John:] Now there was an aren't somewhere that you had. Erm or a can't. The aren't was okay. [Sarah:] Haven't. [John:] Haven't. [Sarah:] There. [John:] Right okay. So... Right. And that looks okay so page up to the start of the document. And now save it. Because you've now got it the way you want it. [Sarah:] Oh right yeah. [John:] You've, you've just checked it all. So you can save that. Remember how to save? [Sarah:] No. [John:] F one F one. [Sarah:] F one yeah. [John:] F one F one. And now where's save in that lot? [Sarah:] Erm F ten. [John:] Now, so, but you're still in. [Sarah:] Enter I can [John:] En you're in help so. [Sarah:] never remember that. [John:] Okay now then N long document name sti still mumsy. [Sarah:] Enter. [John:] So enter yeah. Still S L P. save it on that? Yes. Now what you're trying to do, is overwrite the old version that we had. [Sarah:] Mhm. [John:] It says, replace this one, you've already got one called that, do you want to write this on top of it? In this case we do. But sometimes [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] you might not. So if you just press, if, if you if you pressed enter, it's got the no highlighted, so it wouldn't automatically replace it. Cos it's trying to be safe. [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] The default, the thing it'll do if you don't select something is no. [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] So you have to change that deliberately by typing a Y. [Sarah:] Right. So press Y. [John:] So save it say Y and it'll save it. So that's saved now. If we mess up the printing we've still got that, and we can come back to it [Sarah:] Right. [John:] and try and print again. [Sarah:] Okay. [John:] So now you can turn the printer on.... [Sarah:] It's on. [John:] Is it on? Right excellent. And try printing it. [Sarah:] Right. [John:] Remember how to print? [Sarah:] Erm no. F seven. [John:] That's very [Sarah:] Shift F seven. [John:] Good right. [Sarah:] Right set [John:] And this time we'll [Sarah:] printer. [John:] we'll have a preview first. That, just have a look to see if it looks okay.... And we're on, let's have a look at the full page. [Sarah:] Three. [John:] That looks fine. [Sarah:] That looks okay doesn't it? [John:] Right [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay so escape, [Sarah:] Escape. [John:] to get out of the preview. And then we want to print full document. [Sarah:] So one. [John:] Or F F is easier to remember for full document. P for page, D for disk, C for control. [printer noises]... [break in recording]... [Sarah:] was in here. [John:] Well what? [Sarah:] I don't know. [John:] Feet? [Sue:] Feet? [John:] What was what was wrong with your... little bit of WordPerfect? [Sue:] Oh it's n cos it's not like at work where things don't go wrong at work for me any more. [John:] Pardon? You were saying that the problem you, the big problem you had at work was with your printer drivers. [Sue:] No not any more I don't. [John:] It's the same problem you had there. [Sue:] Not any more I don't. [John:] Well. Cos you know about avoiding changing printers. So the problem was caused with bringing a disk from one machine to another [Sue:] Mhm. I know. [John:] with a different driver on it yeah. But apart from that, apart from the printing, let's forget about the printing aspect. How did you get on with the rest of it? What did you think of it? complained last time. [Sarah:] No but if, if I if I talk... by myself it's going to [John:] So [Sarah:] sound really false, isn't it? [Sue:] Yes. [John:] how did you get on with the word processing this afternoon then Sarah?... Who suggested that you that you should have a go? [Sarah:] Mother. [John:] What did she sugg how did she, how did she suggest it? [Sarah:] Erm well she said, would you like [LAUGHTER] to go on the [] computer? and I said, fine, okay. So she showed me her bits and bobs and [LAUGHTER] things like that []. [John:] The hardware, the keyboard and things. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] How to turn it on. [Sarah:] Yeah. [John:] What else did she show you? [Sarah:] Erm basically how it works. Erm [John:] How does it work? How, how do you turn it on? [Sarah:] Erm by the switch by the telly. [LAUGHTER] [John:] So how many switches to switch it on? [Sue:] I didn't go I didn't go through a proper sort of... instructive thing. I honestly didn't I just brought it up. [John:] Oh I'll let it be known that your mother is a very good instructress. She's good at teaching people all sorts of things, nice and calm and patient. Not like some who are shouting, shift F seven, and shut up and, you know the sort of person. She's not like that at all. She's lovely. Make a good tutor. [Sarah:] There's Elaine Paige [Sue:] I didn't, I didn't do any [Sarah:] on telly. There's Elaine Paige. [Sue:] I didn't do anything really John. I just brought up the files. And went really straight into Sarah typing. [John:] So you set up WordPerfect so she, with a blank screen for Sarah to type on. And a new document. Did you set, did you choose the document name? [Sue:] Erm yes I did. I thought that I'd created a new directory but I didn't. [LAUGHTER] [John:] You used. Thank you you were on the, you were on A drive.... So you typed, you, you, you set it up. And nobody noticed that it said A colon and not C colon. Cos nobody ever reads the bottom line with the poor computer [Sue:] Well I do. [John:] trying to talk to you and tell you something. [Sue:] I do it's just that I [John:] People are just interested in shouting at it aren't they? [Sue:] No I was just [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] simply just... not noticing much on the screen really. [John:] Right. [Sue:] Sarah just wanted to type a little letter. [John:] Mm. [Sue:] I didn't actually feel in the mood to show her [John:] Ah well. [Sue:] bits and all. [John:] Answer that question. [Sue:] Well I thought I was going to have the computer here for the whole time of Sarah's stay you see. [John:] Well one of these days. [Sue:] So I thought that there was plenty of time as this is my first day off from work. [John:] Tonight? This is [Sue:] I didn't want to be thrust straight into it. [John:] Tonight I'm going to transfer WordPerfect, from that one, from the three eight six, to the X T, so you'll be able to find it. [Sarah:] Okay. [John:] So when you started typing, how did you put the address in? [Sue:] Oh that was a bit of fun wasn't it? [John:] I thought that would be a bit of fun. [Sarah:] How did I do? [John:] How did you put the address [Sue:] The address. [John:] In? Forty [Sue:] Getting across to the right-hand side. [Sarah:] Erm... I moved the cursor. [John:] Mhm. [Sue:] Yeah she did a load of indents to start with. [Sarah:] Oh yes and then I done, I did er I put forty two A north and then I went to put street and I wrote it in, typed it in, but it went underneath forty two A. And I thought ooh [LAUGHTER] so [] [John:] That was clever. [Sarah:] I shouted mum. [John:] You set up, set an indent then. [Sue:] No but the street was in the wrong [John:] Or a hanging paragraph? [Sue:] was not on the same line. [John:] No but it was, was it immediately below the forty two? [Sue:] Yes. [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] So you set up some sort of indent. [Sue:] If you press F four. Right if you're doing something, just doing a straight bit of text which [Sarah:] Mm. [Sue:] was just straight typing [Sarah:] Mm. [Sue:] and then you suddenly want to indent, which is say come in five s five spaces [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] five space [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] bars to set it in. [Sarah:] Mm. [Sue:] If you press F four, from the margin,F function F four key. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] It sets in automatically five spaces. [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] Right. And it wraps round. Right. So it gets to the end of the line and it will come back and adjust itself and go under the... the [Sarah:] Yeah. The [Sue:] the first line [Sarah:] Yeah. [Sue:] indent. [Sarah:] Mm. [Sue:] All the way down until you don't want it any more. [Sarah:] Mm. [Sue:] And then you put a return in at the end of that and it goes back to the margin again. [Sarah:] Okay. [Sue:] It's clever that. [John:] What do you think of the little hearts every time you put an enter? [Sarah:] I wondered what was going [LAUGHTER] on. By, by the end of the time when I er did the address I had about ten hearts all over the screen []. [John:] Well with most word processors [Sue:] So I did F eleven and, and revealed the codes and deleted it all. [John:] Very good. [Sarah:] Mm hard software and s [Sue:] I showed her that. [John:] Yes we tried that. [Sarah:] and software. [John:] Hard return and soft returns. [Sarah:] Hard return soft return. [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] Well... well with most word processors, you don't use return, you just keep typing and it automatically says well I won't fit this. [Sue:] It wraps round that's the expression. [John:] Wrap round. [Sarah:] Mhm. [John:] And that set up still most word processors won't show when you've got a new line character. When you press enter it stores a character in your file. It says right get on to a new line. Most of them don't show it but you can set it to show it. So I've set that one to show it. [Sarah:] Okay. [Sue:] Oh stop squeezing my fat [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Squeezing your fat what? [Sarah:] I'm not. [Sue:] Thigh. [Sarah:] I'm just stroking. [John:] Can you make it clear [Sue:] Hip. [John:] for the tape, that it was not I what squeezed your thigh. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Fat or otherwise. It was her there. [Sarah:] It was I.... [John:] So a lot of problems just getting the address in.... [Sarah:] Not really. [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Oh no. Oh no. [John:] Well let's say let's say was it quicker was it would it have been, quicker writing the address by hand? [Sarah:] Oh yeah it wa it wasn't a big thing that was a major mistake. [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's alright, it's alright. Not getting it right first time. [Sarah:] It's all about learning basically isn't it? [John:] Exactly. [Sue:] You learn by mistakes that's [Sarah:] It's all learning yeah. [Sue:] Right I did. [Sarah:] In every aspect of life. [Sue:] That's right. [Sarah:] Life is learning.... [LAUGHTER] [John:] Learning is life.... [Sarah:] Life means learning. [John:] Once you got started [Sarah:] Life is hassle. Life is problems. When [John:] opportunities, opportunities. And once you got started typing the main part of the letter, you were alright then? [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] Just about. [Sarah:] I just whip whipped away. Took about an hour and a quarter to [LAUGHTER] do [] but there you go. [Sue:] Actually. [John:] Can you remember how many words you did? [Sarah:] Four hundred and fifty three.... [Sue:] I did show you how to do. [Sarah:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] How did you find out? [Sarah:] You tried to catch me out there didn't you? You said, how many words did you do? Four hundred and fifty three. [LAUGHTER] [John:] No. [Sarah:] Pardon? [Sue:] I did show Sarah how to do the backspace to delete, when she made a mistake, instead of [John:] Mm. Instead of leaving it. [Sue:] Well not only instead of leaving it but using, she wasn't quite sure she was pressing delete and [Sarah:] It did no I had an E on the er [John:] Delete does work. [Sarah:] the cursor I had an E on the [Sue:] Delete does work if you use [John:] It deletes. [Sue:] the cursor key in fact. [John:] Delete will delete whatever character is at the cursor at the moment. Backspace delete, or backspace one and then delete. [Sue:] Onto the character. [Sarah:] Oh yeah. [John:] Right. [Sue:] I'm going out now. [John:] Cos I remember you saying on the X T that the... delete key wouldn't work. backspace delete. [Sarah:] What, are you going to the offie? [Sue:] Yeah I just want to get some orange juice. [Sarah:] I'll come with you. [Sue:] Is that alright? [John:] It's fine. Can you take this home so you can finish off the tape? Preferably talking about WordPerfect. Or something structured. We've only got about three minutes to go on that. And it's half nine now. So what did you think of the, the session altogether? What did you think of having two [Sarah:] I think [John:] two tutors at one time [Sue:] Well [John:] did you think that worked? [Sue:] No probably it didn't, I mean [John:] Right. [Sue:] you see the thing is [Sarah:] confusing because you've got two people bringing in the ideas, [Sue:] Yeah well you see John's got about twenty five years' experience with computers on me. I'm, I'm still a novice Sarah. [Sarah:] No I'm just saying it's harder for me, it was harder to have two people tutoring me because I, you were coming in with suggestions that you know already, you weren't, like then John was coming in [Sue:] I know, I know, yes I'm sure, I'm sure but you kno that's right. But in actual fact I think that... for preliminary erm instruction I'm, I would be better. Because I wouldn't confuse Sarah with a lot of technicality. [John:] What was the main point [Sue:] But [John:] in your session? [Sue:] Me? [John:] Mm. The session that you started with Sarah, what was the main [Sue:] Oh because I didn't tell her enough about the keyboard and, and the [John:] Why did it all go wrong? Why was it wrong when I came in? [Sue:] Well because I always feel that you want to [John:] No before I came in it was wrong. You couldn't print [Sue:] No it wasn't. [John:] you couldn't print [Sue:] Oh I see what you [John:] so [Sue:] mean oh you're talking about I thought you meant [John:] How, why, why had that why had that gone wrong? [Sue:] What do you mean, why had it, what do you mean, why had it gone wrong? [John:] What, what had caused it? Why wasn't it printing? [Sue:] Oh because I was on th I misread it all. And it [John:] Okay cos it, cos it started [Sue:] Drive [John:] off on an A drive. [Sue:] Yeah. [John:] And it was picking up printer drivers from the A drive. [Sarah:] Mm. [John:] Not a very intelligent package. A load of rubbish. [Sue:] I mean I er I mean I had a lot of trouble [John:] what do you think of it compared to Microsoft's Word? [Sue:] today. Sort of when I first started using it at work [John:] Mm. [Sue:] I was always getting it

[speaker001:] I think that's the right [Dick:] Born at hundred and twenty two Willenhall. One of a family of six and me elder brother was... me bro me dad had a little business in the keys in and er they were hard times and me elder brother... we used to go and work for him because me dad said he must and er from, after school I used to go and perhaps do the errands or a bit of filing, the odd jobs and all that sort of thing and I grew up with locks and keys and files from twelve, even before I left school. I didn't leave school till I was fifteen. I said to me mother, I ain't going to work for me dad like our Albert did. I'm going to get a job on me own. And we had a neighbour named and he'd worked at E T N S all his life and had some influence and I mentioned it to him and he asked me, asked me if he could find me a job. He asked the masters and they said you can come for an interview. I went for an interview at E T N S in now where it is and er they said can you start today and I said no. er, so er... no that wasn't... no [M. Glasson:] Started at [Dick:] Started at that's right, yes and er... I did and er they put me in the machine shop filing keyhole and Those times they had to be all cast over the rim locks and all that, now they've made for us and all that. But er I did two or three hundred, four hundred, five hundred a day and I got fed up on it and I said to the gaffers one day, if you don't change me from this job I'm leaving, so they says oh we don't want you to do that, best filer we've had. So a fellow named Mr worked at he was a neighbour, I got talking to him he says I'll mention it and you can come. I got this job in the machine sh in one of the lock shops and er for a fellow, I worked for him and er after I'd been working for him they wanted me to work for somebody else but this fellow wouldn't let me go. He says he's, he's my bloke, he's gonna stick with me. So I had to work with him till I was about twenty or twenty-one or something like that, you know. Then I was able to er... go for my own self, you know and er I went on doing locks, one thing and another, best I could and all that sort of thing and I worked for a, a bloke what was in there er be a little bloke but he was the best locksmith in the shop and I went to help him and er... he used to give me all the to do and this and that and the other. He had separate orders, each locksmith and at this time I'd done all the ord whatsit er and this and that and the other and I said what's next? He says there ain't nothing else next and er so er I stood there and I said this, kind of like this I've gotta do something so er... I went er to pick sommat up down the back... but before that he said, here you are, he says I put these ready all you gotta do is put the screws in those locks you know, like. And he says, I says listen, young man, the locks I ain't gonna put them in, and this is true, and he said well if you won't do that you'll do nothing else at all. So I stood by the vice for quite a time and then I went to pick something up, turned round, told you, you do that you'll do nothing else. So... I left and er went out the shop. I asked the gaffer I says can I get out? He says you're out and I... not yet I said. Well, I went home and I got another job and it, then I went back, I says can I have me card? He says yes if you're paying me a week's wages and I says I can't do that. He says, well then, he says you could or you couldn't you haven't served a week's notice. It's one or the another. So I had to serve a week's notice and I went down this er... what's the name of it? where I went to work down there and in a month they put, it was amongst a shop of... about sixteen men and they all had separate orders and the men had got little lads working for them, you know. But there was a foreman in the shop, but these did their own job er and er in the... about three or four weeks, and I'm only a kid, erm they had me doing separate jobs you know, not for a gaffer or anything and er they used to, they give me odd jobs as, you know like, to help the men and er it went of like that in till I was eighteen or nineteen, well twenty, that time you were, day, become a man. Er one time the locksmiths had a rise from ni eighteen, twenty to twenty-one a man, it was a big rise but the locksmiths' union they altered it from to twenty and a half, twenty-one, twenty-one and a half, three rises before you went from a lad to a man's raise, you know. Well that happened and er I was man and er... they er brought me all the odd jobs that was going about and they used to go down the warehouse and er there was a fellow there, well a woman more than anything, know'd where every thing was and in no time at all they showed me where the things were and er I er, young, it was in my memory, and in no time at all the men in the shop used to come and ask me to get them something from out the warehouse for this and that and the other. And in no time at all erm they were all more or less depending in some small way on me, and I was just absolutely lapping the situation up, you know what I mean, just suited me fine. And er... after a time, they wanted to know if I'd take complete charge and I said well yes I said, but what are the men gonna think? And they said we don't mean to be over the men, but what we mean is for you to come down the office, no what the office wants as regards orders, and be responsible and pass them out to the men who you'll think who'll do the job best and all that, and that's what we mean. So I said alright, I'll do that, and I did. And it meant that I had free access to the whole of the so much so, I had a key to the bottom of entry in er access to the firm and I could get in when I liked. They put complete trust in me you understand what I mean? And er I'd got a key to get in from the works into the office once I was inside, but that was access to the works you know and er I er... I en I enjoyed it more or less and I must say the firm, to some extent, looked up to me and I'd only got to have a damned machine stop, where the girls was working on this machine, and the bobbin shop and all that sort of thing, and I was able to go look er, down and say look here I want this. Well, whatever they was doing, they'd drop and do whatever I said it, and it was the same with the bobbin shop, you know. Mind you these was instructions from the office to me, telling me what I, what they wanted and I had to carry it out. And er, then I should go to the bobbin shop and ask them if they could get these done today and er, well we got this on, I said no but I, we want it if you could leave them on one side and erm... I used to er... I, I became, if I might say so and I'm not boasting or bragging or anything, Michael, I'm trying to tell you the situation as it was and er I was a very important man to and er they er... got me er at one time to er figure out, they, they used to make what was called Woolworths locks. It's rather surprising to you, but they used to sell them in Woolworths for sixpence. they had to sell them for three and threepence, three farthings.... And they were sold in Woolworths for er sixpence. Er you can't imagine this I don't suppose, but nevertheless it's true and in a time, the men in the shop... they was mass-production, you know what I mean and they wanted this or that or the other, well I had the authority to go down the machine shop and tell them, look here, so and so wants this you do that. And we had four casters... in the works and I had to go and sort out the, I'll tell you about the find the castings that these men wanted for their lot, take them down to the... castors and tell them in priority which I wanted, you know and er all that sort of thing and erm I hadn't used to do any, making [LAUGHTER] any locks [] hardly at the end, you know I had, I had before but er if I might say so, er I became mo the most important man on the factory, you know. And er I never heard or had any more ways than ordinary. [M. Glasson:] This was in was it? [Dick:] Yes, that's right in That's er, that's where it was, my lad and that was the entry as I used to get access from remembering it ain't quite like it was now, my lad. But there was a big door, well I used to get in the entry from, with an ordinary key, used to go up the b up the op big opening and open the big doors from the insides, you see what I mean, for the rest to come in. And erm there was half a dozen shops and quite a few, spent most of me life there. I le I left there starting to work on me own. As a matter of fact, there was about, I got four month in this one particular shop and there became sixteen men, in this shop, that was working for me and er... er we, I instituted a bonus scheme. Oh two or three years before, only it turned out, after a time, that the men were earning more money than me because I, the bonus, you understand, it was a good thing for the firm, it was a good thing for the men. It was a bad thing for me, strictly speaking, because the men became as they was earning more money than me and this is complete fact. Erm I had a go at one of the gaffer's. I said look here, you've put me in a job I reckon I've done it alright, the only thing is it's me that is the worse off now. I says I'd like a rise. They said oh... that's alright. Well, it came to the and it was in the shop and they said what do you want? And I said a Pound... and they said what? I said a Pound. They said we'll give you five shilling and I used this very, very I said you can stick that up th wear it in your arse... and that's the truth. And they looked like that and I says, what, I says, they've caused these men to earn all this money I says they're earning more money than and that's all you're gonna offer me? And it brought about the bridge, Michael. I said I said er, Irene come from Manchester. [speaker004:] nothing at all. [Dick:] No, nothing at all about the lock and two years after closed and it was because of this because the men on the phone told me so and er anyway brought about the bridge and er... I er... accepted it, you know what I mean, it was that was it, I'd done it myself. But I was walking in the market place, shortly after, only about just over a week after, and I met an old fellow who had retired from Hello Graham! What you doing? Not much... I says no I'm out of a job. He says what! I says you hear what I said I've got I explained a bit to him he says, I tell you what, there's something going down He says they don't make nothing there, he says, but they buy anything and everything. He says it's come to my knowledge cos er they want this and that and the other. So he says you ought to go down there, you can mention my name. So I went down and Mr at that time was Mayor of Willenhall, a very influential man, and he was er over and er his son had to became in charge, but anyway I went to see him it was Mr and er about it and he says er well we got er a order for four locks here, he says er I wonder if er you could quote me for them? I says, well I'll have a look and quote. I, I says, I'll let you know sometime today or tomorrow and er... anyway, he was expecting me to say at least two or three or four weeks you know er because I'd put the situation I had no tools, no nothing and erm I er had a look at it and I thought what I could do, and I says I can let you have them in a week.... What! He says, I can, I can let you have them in a week. He had an old brew house there and on the side of the sink there I built a good staunch bench about like that square, put a vice on it you know. And I'll say this now, they was in business there, nextdoor, and I knew them like that, they says any machinery come here and use it, and they'd got shears and all that sort of thing, and with their help, you know, I had these four locks and did them and took them down in no time to m to er, to and they was flabbergasted because of the quickness of them, you know, and they says er we can always find you sommat to work if er this is the case. So I er carried on with what they found me with this in the brew house and then er where did I go from there? [speaker004:] You went [Dick:] Then I went, that's right me I would've, me brother and I would've got a pub in erm excuse me asking these questions because it's a bit vague, you know [M. Glasson:] that's fine, don't worry [Dick:] and er [M. Glasson:] [LAUGHTER] [Dick:] and er in the piece of property at the back of the pub, down the opposite side of the road, down a lane you went on to and there was a football field, couple of football fields there and prior to this, they'd have to if they could use this little place as a stripping room and he said yes. Well... when he said I could come it was er September. So I worked down here and nights up there preparing it and all round this, this place was coat hooks and that, where they all hung their things and I had to knock them down, you know what I mean, and fix me own benches up and er I'd got a little treadle lather and er sufficient for me to start. And then, after a time, we er had the er electricity took up the yard and into the shop and then we was able to buy a little machine you know what I mean and it went from there. And I supplied, ooh couldn't tell you the firms. As a matter of fact a fre fellow named lived in here and he was a traveller to er... George he's one of the best, biggest rim lockmakers in the town, anyway, they're on this erm now and er... he was going round for orders for regulars of his, for his firm and somebody, one day, asked him look here, we've got a little awkward job here, you know anybody the can you do it? Oh he says we couldn't do that he says that now, he says I couldn't get that done for you. But after a thinking he says listen, leave it with me, I'll see what I can do. So they did that and he came and sorted me out. I dunno how he knew about me. But he came and sorted me out and I asked, I said I'll see what I can do and I got hold of it and I did it for him. And he was bringing orders right, left and centre off of his clients. England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales Michael, no doubt about it. And in no time at all, I didn't have to ask for jobs, I'd got more than I could do, you know and er I was still, very well taken care of in the shop. It was a lovely shop, bought it up here up But, me brother left the brew left the pub and er it meant that I had to get out you know. Well with about forty visits to er... Walsall, the council and different other... departments Yes, that's right love. Two friends of mine and they says er c can we find you a place in our that's right love. Er Arthur and er played for Walsall football club, Arthur but er they, little shop there. I cleared that and fixed the vice up and they said I could do that and I used the and that in their place and er then they had to quit the premises completely, didn't they? I mean they'd got to be out for er couldn't tell you, Christmas or something like that. [speaker004:] Poor Mr died and [Dick:] Mr [speaker004:] they had to come out and [Dick:] Arth Arthur Arthur had retired. His pal his workmate was retired and a few months after, Arthur died, so it left me the one and the owners of the property, they give me notice to quit and no messing about er and when I talked to them, they give me twelve months, rate free, to erm... get out. And as I say, I was able to get in touch with me brother and fix this little shop up there and er no I've said that I've er, I've er [speaker004:] You don't come [Dick:] Eh? [speaker004:] You don't come [Dick:] famous London fair. But er [speaker004:] The ship that the Queen sailed on and Princess Elizabeth [Dick:] I'll tell you about that in a minute and then er... I er had to go about forty times for permission. That side of this ro industrial, this side is residential and that's strict, you know what I mean. But this premise was there at that time and by... oh I had to go to a great extent on a number of visits and they er... granted it me on compassionate grounds and there's er I was only looking in the back of there the other day and there's one there now. Cos there's er due to retire d in, in nineteen forty-two, nineteen eighty-two, a three year licence to own that premise there. You know, this is how it was first and I only come across that but, how it went, they felt I was genuine I suppose and they could trust me and they left it as it was and I had me own building. I had er I sent the dimensions to the firm at Oxon and er I had to go to the bank and borrow the money, because you see the money I paid if I don't pay cash I'd gotta have six months delivery. And they er, I ordered this the one Saturday and two weeks after they come and put it up. That was how it was, two weeks after and er [speaker004:] It was otherwise six months if you don't pay cash. [Dick:] If I don't pay cash and er been the best thing I ever done and its been sufficient, you know what I mean and er all the people, there ain't nobody in this town that I ain't worked for, sometime or other. All the odd jobs they've sent to me and my stock-in-trade was special-purpose items or customers' requirements. I never ever had a running line as I could offer anybody, although you know when the museum come, when I had orders for two or three dozen. If I had an order for thirty-six I'd make thirty-seven, you know what I mean. Cos, in case there was a mistake and on one side and I, and I had quite a number of things accumulate in that way you know. But I never ever had a running line, although they did... have an order for so many like that and I'd keep the patterns and the gages and if they wanted any more later on, you know, I used to do that sort of thing for the sake of me customers and all that. And er... they er... went around the town and if anybody wanted anything, it, this applied to local householders and all that sort of thing. When they was doing the decorating and that and a lock went wrong oh take it down to Dick and er they'd bring it and whatever I was doing, however important it was, just because they'd be finish the decorating at night and they wanted to put the lock back, I'd drop what I was doing and do this for them. And I was gonna tell you this. I don't know whether you'll think I'm boasting but that isn't the case, but I never ever regretted it and it a great deal of respect for me, you know and I could see that and did appreciate it and I know the people appreciated it just the same and erm... it's gone on from then till now but about, I retired in seventy-three, I was sixty-five and I said I'd only do what anybody wanted for me, cos they had me in for the tax and I never ever heard twenty-one I think it was or thirty-one in come and I'd go before I could satisfy them at Walsall but er I'd got, not got enough money to be taxed in the bank, which was true. please understand me, but no thousands of Pounds is er taxable, see what I mean they've never, I should never applied and they had to send about oh above twenty returns, yearly return. I was up till three o'clock in the morning, very often, getting these prepared because they wanted them as quickly as possible, you know and er... er... it was the same when I, I don't know when... Mm? [speaker004:] Where are you now? [Dick:] Yes, well er I was saying er... it was this Mr I think it was, but it was to do with er a big firm in at the time and they wanted er some locks at Liverpool There was a big firm in Liverp Birkenhead and there was a big firm in London. It was er international company sommat like that Ching and er... they asked me about it and I said I'll see what I can do. So er what was it er? [speaker004:] You, you made them [Dick:] And er, that's right and they told me what they wanted and er that's right, there was a hundred and fifty-five locks. Five different kinds for different parts of the ship. About thirty in each suite to differ and a master key and... as I say there was five suites and they had to make a key that'd open everyone of the fifty-five. Yet, there was five separate master keys to each suite. This is applied because of the wards, you understand what I mean. I had to keep more or less the leverage more or less the same because you couldn't differ them and er I er had that job to er do for and er it was the H M S Gothic and they was going to South Africa and er when er they was on, in the middle of South Africa on the coast one of the royalty died. [speaker004:] Queen's father. [M. Glasson:] George the fifth [speaker004:] Her father. [Dick:] Her father died and they had to come back from their, this particular and come back. But I made their... locks for H M S Gothic. Hundred and fifty-five locks, five suites, thirteen a suite approximately and er a master key to each suite and a gras grand master to take the whole lot. And there was some sliding door locks and some er lift-up locks. Erm some of the doors slide, like backwards and forwards, and some swung on hinges which is er totally different, do you understand? [speaker004:] He used to at his brother's shop. [Dick:] But... it was my... it was my customers' requirements. This is what they wanted and I undertook to do it and I tell you, all me life I've been able to and have done that. Yes [speaker004:] I know you hadn't finished them had you when they was ready to set sail. [Dick:] No [speaker004:] And they sent a big from down there [Dick:] Oh ah [speaker004:] Doctor had to fit, fetch a little parcel [Dick:] Yes, when they was fitting them on the H M S Gothic they sent, they Birkenhead and I asked if they, so I stopped work, all Saturday and this, this er big er were it? [speaker004:] Yeah [Dick:] From Birkenhead to take these two three lots and he could put them in his but anyway, they were all gonna be done [speaker004:] when he were down the town hall. [Dick:] They, they were all done and it's coming back clearly now. This is perfectly true and he thought he'd be back the same day and he wasn't. But because he wasn't, I worked as hard as I could until dark, about night time, to get them done for the next day. And he says well, I can wait till tomorrow, better than going back and coming again. So er I went down the Red Lion in Willenhall and fixed him up for a night's dosh, didn't I, and the driver and then er I worked on, worked on and on and was able to get these er done for him to take back to fit this ship. Cos it was due to sail on the same day, on the Sunday, you know what I mean and er it was these locks as I'm telling you about and her... a very, very famous firm and er my correspondence come from London because he had offices was there, you know and erm... our erm... I've been at the service as I, if I might say so, but in most people it's surprising how it get's round and er... the jobs that I've had to do. They come once from Tetnall church. It er they'd had a fire there and they wanted to know if I could replace the lock. I said certainly. Well, they'd got the skeleton that wanted a big brass lock but er oh you know, lovely and er it was more trouble getting the thing through the pan to get er the case than putting the insides in it, if you follow what I mean. But it was for the lock from the people, you know and he, he got round like this, and this is the God's truth as well again, he'd come to me from America and er they, I had to make locks for certain people they called them statos, status symbols there, in their own houses, you know, where they put this lock on and anybody as he's got one like that, you know and from America to Dick in Willenhall to make them. [M. Glasson:] We've, we've got some [Dick:] But this is the truth,Mi Michael. [M. Glasson:] We've got some of those big gate locks as well, you made one of [Dick:] Have you? [M. Glasson:] those as well, yes that, that you, you made, yeah [Dick:] Yes [M. Glasson:] Yeah [Dick:] Yes, yes well as I say, you're coming into the shop and I don't know what was in now I couldn't tell you, but anyway [speaker004:] And the lighthouse locks you made [M. Glasson:] Yes, yes the lighthouse locks. [speaker004:] The lighthouse locks, yes [Dick:] Oh, the lighthouse locks that was wonderful. I made lighthouses, locks for li lighthouses all round the world, Michael. This is the truth my lad and the first I made for was for the that, just off Canada, is is New Foundland? New Foundland there, there was a lighthouse there and er because these people worked together, you know. It's the same as everything and everybody and because er they were satisfied with it, they wanted some more and they took the old lo lock off and put some more on what I'd made, see what I mean. And I made locks for lighthouses, I'm not boasting my lad, and they'd li locks, locks for lighthouses pretty near all round the world. And onto ou round Australia and that and I mentioned I started in New Foundland, yes. [speaker004:] Used to be lovely to go on a trip with him. big er houses, you know. You'd lose him when you got inside, he'd be examining the locks on the doors. [Dick:] [LAUGHTER] Ah [speaker004:] I'd say where, where'd you go? Oh, he's looking at that lock there. [M. Glasson:] [LAUGHTER] You, you mentioned also a bit once, when I came before, about the erm the, the lock for the cricket ground. Was it Lord's? [Dick:] Oh yes [speaker004:] Lord's, yes [Dick:] I made four locks for the gates on Lord's cricket ground er and when I'm telling you this, and practically without exception, they must've er got to know me and they come for what they wanted. Couldn't really tell you what it was now, but I made four locks for Lord's cricket ground. There was four gates on the ground apparently. They was gate locks. You wouldn't call them like flashy locks or you know, like mortice as you fit in the door or anything like that. It's what the customer required, gate locks. They'd gotta be secure as you could imagine and er not easily... picked, if you follow what I mean and er yes, made I made four locks for Lord's cricket ground. [M. Glasson:] Did, did the big companies like Parks and, and Yale and so on. Did they come to you at all? [Dick:] Yes they did, but very, very... seldom. They er they used to come at the first, and I'll tell you this and I, it's my opinion, they got one of their own men... er I'd foxed them off, you know what I mean, to do their own odd jobs. It was much more convenient than putting them out, see. But I have worked for the Yale and Parks's in the very first instance, yes. Why, do you want to say sommat then, what? [M. Glasson:] When, when you were working at what sort of lock were you making there? Was this, this was the coin lock, coin- operated locks, was it? [Dick:] Er well, they made. The re the essence of was they made more or less the customers' requirements. Now, the Yale and Union locks they'd got a certain type of locks that they produced and it was all done with a system, you know what I mean and more or less come to assembly and er they did that. But these firms, as I said, they wanted this or that or the other and with er because of this fellow Mr he did nothing to get it out of his so it just happened, you know what I mean. And I'll send that to Dick and he'll fix you're up and saved them going to the lot of trouble on their own er ground. Money was, particularly, no object, you follow what I mean, people in that kind of business. I never ever charged enough, never ever charged enough, but they said Dick will fix you up, you know. And their odd jobs, they'd probably got men in their own factory to do it, but no they sent them to Dick... and I er used to oblige. And er I was well known if I might say and proud of this Michael. Well respected and they'd all er have a word me anytime and I could go into any office you know what I mean and er... yeah. [speaker004:] they was mortice locks weren't they? [Dick:] we, we worked in my shop, that's what I was telling you about. There was quite a few men and made more or less the customers' requirements and when I was in charge, there was sixteen and they, about in two or three parties, er you know and they'd make different kinds of locks what was ordered and not particularly er mortice or rim er what the customer required. [speaker004:] Didn't they make the slot locks? [Dick:] Yes. [speaker004:] That's what he wanted to know. [Dick:] Yes and er I er... they got me on that and I'd er seen a bit on it before hand one way or another, but I went to a place and, and asked them if I could er... see and er they showed me and explained it, the er the way to er. Cos you could put one coin in or two and er sometimes th there was halfpennies and pennies then. Well, you put halfpenny through, it,th th th the gap was too wide and it went right through. If you put a penny in, it was like that Michael, whereas a penny could it come like that and held it. It moved two things which put it into operation, you know and er I could turn the knob and it'd get the whole thing going, it'd get you inside, it'd register that it'd been, when you shut the door, as soon as you shut, in the toilets, as soon as you shut the door the penny dropped down, see what I mean. It was, you opened it and come out and shut, shut the door and you'd lose the penny then they'd got to go through the same operation with another penny, you know what I mean. And er I erm I organised a lot of that sort of thing erm by er... it was exact measurements and spindles and you know like Erm yes, I couldn't remember a lot now but er... a lot of people, if I might say so, used me you know, Michael, my knowledge and skill and I allowed them to and I'm not complaining. [speaker004:] Well they're used to them slot locks on the toilets, aren't they? [M. Glasson:] Right. [Dick:] Yeah Where where did you learn most of your, your skills as a locksmith? Was it at or Yes. [M. Glasson:] or bef before then? [Dick:] Yes because I went to, I only had a few weeks at er and that was and I wouldn't stick that. I says I want to learn sommat so I went to and I don't know what it was, whether it was my attitude, but they, they asked me to do this and I was so good at it, so they started finding jobs for me and it was at and I was anxious for knowledge, and I tell you took anything on, which is important and the big firms didn't. As a matter of fact, I'm saying earlier on, that the big firms send them to you know to er [speaker004:] They were mass-production [Dick:] Whatever, whatever want or could get, oh bring it here we'll do it. They used to come to Dick see. [M. Glasson:] Wh what, what sort of hours did you work when you were at did they, did they change [Dick:] Only or [M. Glasson:] over the years? [Dick:] No, only ordinary. [M. Glasson:] And what were they? [Dick:] Well, we used to work from eight to half-past five and then from eight to half-past twelve, fifty-two and half hours, when I started first. But er you know it come down to forty-six and usually only do about thirty-eight now that is, sommat like and er it's only half a week. But when I started it was fifty-two and a half hours a week... yes. And er the half hour was er... erm we had nine and a half five days, that was er... from eight till half past five... I don't know but it was fifty-two and a half hours, from eight till half-past twelve on a Saturday and er [M. Glasson:] Did, did you get breaks during the day? Were did you [Dick:] Oh yes [M. Glasson:] You did. [Dick:] You always er [speaker004:] About half past twelve [Dick:] You always had a I had a dinner-time, half-past twelve to half-past one, every day and er you was allowed to have a cup of tea. As a matter of fact, a lot of the firms provided the cup of teas, you could go and get one, you know what I mean. I think at that time you had to pay for it, but you could go and have ten minutes, sommat like that, and a cup of tea. It weren't er... just all you know, there was a certain amount of er thought attached to it and as I say, the people was er... accepted by the gaffers and er respected, you know what I mean. But there was always them as just wanted to come and do nothing and pick the money up and that's what they had to sort out the firms. And I, I don't think that's changed now, do you? [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Dick:] I don't think it's changed but that has applied all the while, my lad. [speaker004:] Yes. [Dick:] Yes and er... if I might s oh I er don't know I've been to bloody shop meself... but I ain't sorry about it, cos I've done what I've wanted to do and I've enjoyed what I've done and erm... the authorities they get'd me that on er hardship grounds there, as I say, being on er residential premise and er they showed me great respect and er [speaker004:] Too old to travel on that's why they [Dick:] the local council, who, who, I wo, I call it used me but not in er whatsit sense, er it's helped, you know it's, it's helped them and er whatever, it's become well-known if I might say so, in locks, I'll go to Dick [M. Glasson:] Were, were there a lot of erm sort of small workshops like yours, a few years ago when you [Dick:] There were [M. Glasson:] started up? [speaker004:] There were [Dick:] There were. As a matter of fact, when I'm talking about, let me see er fifty years ago, there was one up at every back yard, that's the truth. And er... used to go. I'd got one didn't I, that's right. But erm [M. Glasson:] What, why why do you think they, why do you think they've gone, so many of them? Why do you think they've disappeared? [Dick:] Well, er the reason was erm technique and science and they'd, they all the firms or who was in business had to make locks their own way, you know what I mean and use the best facilities they could get hold of, but science and progress came into being and they cou they made what you could call locks erm... repetition. Er they had a lock, made it a good lock and sent it to all the clients and this is what we can supply, and it used to meet the needs of clients and they'd er they'd erm buy it and it kept them in business, you see what I mean? And then other firms did that and er they was the same people nearly, got their own lines and it was worse that was, so they got onto the same lines and er the competition became then financial [speaker004:] There used to be nearly every [Dick:] I say the competition then, later on became financial. Them as who could make it a bit cheaper see, and all that. But you said erm certain things could be... we had, had a machine once and you'd got to pull four or five handles. When you had pulled five handles there was an article produced.... each, each time you pulled a handle it did one job and er couldn't tell you really now what it was, you know but er you'd pull the five handles in a few minutes and the damn thing was done. And er... another way'd cost ten times as much and that to produce. [M. Glasson:] Did, did you see much machinery being brought in while you were at? [Dick:] No. As a matter of fact, that what they were lacking in and we er we had a driller and er... we had a driller and er horizontal lather for turning and a grinder, when I say grinder I mean emery wheel, and that's about all we'd got in the shop. [speaker004:] Yeah, but it was old-fashioned wasn't it [M. Glasson:] So it was all ha hand work was it? [speaker004:] Yes. [Dick:] Yes it was, yes it was. When you went to the driller you'd gotta hold it in your hand or get a sommat, a gadget to hold the thing on, pull put the drill in. When you had got to go to the emery wheel, you'd gotta hold the things and emery wheel them and yourself. And er [speaker004:] Oh yes, it was very old-fashioned [Dick:] when you wanted to do something with the keys or operate er horizontal, there was a machine and you had to go to the do it yourself. And each man, or perhaps been one or two men doing the one jo the one order and they was each responsible for their own and then [cough] you'd gotta put your name down sometimes for a machine you know. I'm on next, you know what I mean and er oh ah, old-fashioned time, yeah. [M. Glasson:] But it, it was a, it was a good place to work you think? [Dick:] Oh I shall never regret Er I don't know but... I'm just perhaps one on me own, but er it couldn't have been better for because I was a freelance and er I wanted to learn and wanted to get on and they allowed me, they allowed me to do what I wanted. I was very, very happy. Never ever had half as much wage as I really should've had and I say to that's never bothered me. I've never ever... I say this very proudly, been in debt and as long as I've earned enough money to live, I've never bothered to put any on one side strict, you know, strictly speaking and I've been happy to er live and er that's how I've lived me life. [M. Glasson:] Right. I think that's that, yep. [clears throat] Right. [Dick:] But in the first instance, as I say we, I was one of six children and er I don't think there was one working while they was, I mean they was all born before there was anybody old enough to work, you find, that's And our Albert, me dad had Albert up and he er never give me mother any wages for Albert. He used to give Albert some pocket money... and he was satisfied, but me mother wasn't. And I said to me mother, I says look here, when I'm old enough to work I say's, I ain't going to work for me dad I shall get a job on me own. I says he ain't doing on me what he's doing on Albert. I says I sure of that and er I left and went and got into a row over it. But I went down Harold I tell you and got the job. I couldn't have gone to a better place because they'd got most parts of the country and one thing and another and I fitted their bill to a tee. And they called me more or less er to do the odd jobs you know and in the brew house, as was here, I fixed, I told you once, I fixed a bench up, it was as tight as could be and put a vice on it and all in here, this shop here, they says you can come in here anytime and do what you like and er some friends at here, they er was in the woods line and er the gaffer, Ernie, we went through Little London School together, and he says anything we can do, anytime Richard, you've only gotta say. So I could always go up there and I used there little drill for one thing and another in the first place and er built that premise for me there... did and I did er [speaker004:] in the shop and [Dick:] He used to go to a lotta places er that as knocked down or, well I couldn't tell you the kind of job, but often there was some locks on the premises was er, perhaps needed repair or he wanted them to be in before he could leave the job and say here you are, that's the job done. And he used to bring anything and everything, and that's not joking, to me and er I'm proud of that. I was able to accommodate him at each time, you follow what I mean. I'd make it me business to er yes and course it was to his trade good [LAUGHTER] jobs as he'd [] done for customers, had it done so well, they told somebody else and it brought in trade, see what I mean? [M. Glasson:] When, when you were working up the shop up the back erm where, where were you getting your, your su supplies from, I mean like, were you, were you buying castings, did you need to buy [Dick:] Oh yes erm er... I er... I had er... what was the what is it those in the... you know [speaker004:] You used to have a casting [Dick:] Aye [speaker004:] and er [Dick:] ... er [speaker004:] Dennis [Dick:] Dennis and Sammy er Sammy and er [speaker004:] You used to have your castings from there and then you have them off Ernie [Dick:] They, I had them of Ernie oh that's er that's a good girl Shilling a pound, brass castings. Now brass is a pound in, in weight now never mind about shilling a pound. Ernie [speaker004:] Ernie house [Dick:] the top of er there was somebody named was sold coal [speaker004:] right on the corner by the, I believe the [Dick:] There was a Post Office on the corner opposite the Post Office chapel, Post er opposite the Baptist chapel and er up the back yard there, there was this premise, it was behind a pub called the Beehive and erm I rented it out there and er that was nextdoor to and the castings was a shilling a pound and er [M. Glasson:] They'd do, they'd do special one-off things for your would they? [Dick:] Yes er that's been the essence of what I've wanted is er I've, I've had to have what I've wanted by hook or by crook, and I don't mean crook in a bad sense, I mean one way or another, you know what I mean and er I did job for the casters, same as they did jobs for me, you know and that's how I've gone through life, that is Michael. Helping one another and [speaker004:] Three brass casters there? [Dick:] You had three brass casters there. [speaker004:] Had Dennis [Dick:] And er [speaker004:] Ernie [Dick:] You see [speaker004:] And then were [Dick:] I could perhaps take a little bit of paper like that and I'd find [M. Glasson:] But they were all local weren't they, anyway. [Dick:] I'd find [speaker004:] Oh yes. [Dick:] I'd find something as er pretty near to what I wanted, you know and I could perhaps, and did, use what's called beeswax a lot, you know and er warm it up and ply it and put it onto er something to make it to what the shape I wanted, you know. [M. Glasson:] So you made, you made your own patterns [Dick:] And then the caster'd cast that, you know and another ca time, I wanted er a projection, you know and er I'd take a casting. Cos they used to have gates with er two or three inches apart, you know and I'd gotta have a projection. Well, I could go to the casting and asked him to put the pattern in and fire it for it, to cut the sand out like that, you know so that the metal'd run in like that and you'd got the big head as you wanted, you know and er it'd take you... like castings with the machine and all that sort of thing, it was all hand stuff you know and yeah [M. Glasson:] They'd they'd have to be filed before you used them, would they? [Dick:] Oh I could go, used to get them on the emery wheel and er square them up with a pair of sliding gages. Michael, I've had to work very, very exact my lad... and these things I'd got the sliding gages and put them on and they'd been the same at the front as they have at the back and that's the thickness as well. And when you've er loose them in the fore end or the front of the lock or do anything like that [cough] that article as it's in, when you lock it out it's gotta fit just as tight when it's locked out as when it's in. Which means it's gotta be exact all the way round, you know what I mean. And these are all part of er [speaker004:] and have it trimmed up and then you can [Dick:] That's what I used to do [speaker004:] they'd gotta be as I couldn't go to them [Dick:] No [M. Glasson:] How, how did you learn to, I mean, looking at some of your locks, they're sort of very, very fine [Dick:] Yeah [M. Glasson:] I mean did you, did you learn this as you went on or did you, did you [Dick:] No it was er it was er... oh how can I say er I used me head and er, if you follow what I mean, and imagination and er I could envisage what, perhaps, people wanted, it was in my own mind and I'd make it up... some way or another. You could call ingenuity if you like and er but it've, did apply my lad and er once you'd got one, you could have er one cast and dress it up and you'd got another one, you know what I mean. You make a thing as is gonna do the job and it's no problem then to get castings off it and all that sort of thing. But in, in a lot of instances, to answer you, I had to use me ingenuity. What I want and er how to get it.... I couldn't tell you how, but it I, cos... you'd, I don't want nothing, but when I did, I'd gotta use my ingenuity to get something that I could get one or two or a dozen or ten off, you know what I mean, and I gotta make it and a lot of times I made it out of wood... which was easily er... you know treated. Then you could get a, a piece of wood very, very rough, understand me and then cast and then you could get the cast in down to exaction, you follow what I mean and then er you could what you want. But I started off wood, nearly, nearly in every instance. Cos they used to send me er l er orders, locks on drawings and six, six or sev six or seven pages and that's all I'd got to go in, see what I mean? Well I'd start with wood and er get something rough to work off and then, use me head as I say, get it down to the requirements on the, on the paper and then start to produce eventually, you know and er [speaker004:] You used to have your keys off [Dick:] Eh? [speaker004:] You used to have your keys off [Dick:] Yes, Arthur [M. Glasson:] Oh I know [Dick:] Arthur in Eddington [M. Glasson:] Yes, yes [Dick:] They're one of the keys, best keys men in, a friend of mine. He was a, we belonged to the same shed. He used to come to and I was a member of Springbank for sixty years and er anything I can do Richard, you know. And I used to go up there and tell him what I wanted and as far as keys and anything like that, got sent to me he would. Erm, Horace, he's he was in the paper a short while ago, eighty-two were it? Horace Evans? [speaker004:] Yes, I think so. [Dick:] You know and he's eighty-two now and er that makes him about five year older than me but to tw I'm talking about twenty, thirty year ago, five make no difference then, you know and we ha had the same understanding. He knew as he could come to me er he used to bring me lock keys of all sorts and er he could get the castings or the patterns or what it is like that and he knows I could fashion them to fit the lock and all that sort of thin and we were very [M. Glasson:] So you'd, they, they they gave, they sent you the blanks, did they, and you'd work them up? [Dick:] Oh yes, oh yes yes erm... and I'm on about er... on about, for one thing, but you'd be surprised er it's the biggest and most elaborate trade of any in the world, locks and keys, I say that very firmly because er... there's no limit, there's no extent and you, there might be required anything and as I say er I er... I had these locks for the asylums and that, you know and er I thought I mentioned it before, I made fifty... fifty locks all different and I had to number them and keep a record of them and er... I had a, you had the keys on a wire, numbered one up to fifty and they was for big, big asylums, you know what I mean and er they could go in one ward, I'm on about places where they'd have twenty or thirty people, you know and er there's only one bloke could get in there. Be a different master key for the next ward and all that sort of thing. There was fifty and there was five levers and three lifts and I had to get a piece of paper and er make a, when you get one, two, three and then five you could have er three, three, two, one and five, four, three, two, one, you know what I mean? Then I could have two, a one, three and four three, two, one, five, do you know what I mean? And I had to make all these er computations out and er... I made fifty... that I thought nobody could pick. There was no Michael, it's just only way,co mind you could only do these on one-sided because when you turn your key the other side, it's gotta be th exactly the same to do the job. But this was because it was one-sided, they used to lock it from the outside and there was a catch on the inside as they could put in. They only used to ever lock the door from the outside and er I er... had to make er fifty and as I say, number them one up to fifty and er then they'd perhaps... on a odd occasion they sent me an order for one, the number... the number [speaker004:] and then, then your metal you used to have to hadn't you? [Dick:] Yes, yes... yes and er but erm that was one of the most famous in my opinion. It was only a one-sided lock, which is completely and totally different to an ordinary lock er working both sides, you see what I mean and er... I er I'd got to er make a key, number thirty-nine... just like that, see but I had it and I could find out what thirty-nine was and I could make them one and send it and knowing it would fit see and er when they had different people working there, you know staff, things like that, not a lot of orders but er somebody else come. They might want him or her to have a key, you know and er and just ran the keys up on a thing like that, you know what I mean, they was never out of the person's possession. It wasn't er, it wasn't good to leave them about, you know what I mean and er oh er... yes it's been very important, if I might say so, certain things as I've had been called upon to do and I've been happy and proud to do it. [M. Glasson:] When, when you were working at were... were, were, the union important at all, the, the Lock, Lock-making union? [Dick:] Oh yes, I've al I was always in the union. As a matter of fact er yes I, I, I joined at sixteen on the union, when I was a, a kid and er I've always believed in it and I encourage others to do the same. And when I er... went to go on me own er... I still wanted to keep in the union and I went down the Locksmiths' union, which was in the market place, and they said they er we couldn't, we couldn't have you in the union if you go on your own erm there's another denomination or something, was something that you'd have to join or something like that and be on your own. Well er when I er, when I er, I couldn't remember much what it was now, but whatever the union fee was, when I started on me own to be er satisfied of cos of circumstances I might need money, you know, I thought it would say the union fee was a shilling, I had to pay one and six... half as much as whatever it was and I did do. Never ever been out of a union er till I retired cos I always paid these fees and er... yes. [M. Glasson:] You, you always felt it was er, an important thing to belong? [Dick:] Well er I didn't want to be out of it or, awkward or off it or anything, if it was right, and I felt that it was right, I'd adhere to that, whether or not, you follow what I mean, that's how I've lived me life, Michael, yes. [M. Glasson:] Was, was Mr at the union in those days? [Dick:] Yes, oh yes. You see until er er he lived in er you're on a about fifty or sixty years ago you know... yes. I we live in then, then up to Wellington, but he lived in you know and er... [M. Glasson:] Were, were there any times when the union was, when the union was quite important? When, when they helped to solve a problem at, at Can you remember any instance? [Dick:] Well er... as I say, I've always been a union member but then when I was self-employed it was different and I kept me fees up for a, to somewhere I don't know what it was, but er when er... yes, when er I was coming to come on me own and I went down the locksmith's to see about it and they said er, what did they say now, they said you couldn't do that, whatever it was, and er we'll have to do this and that and the other. And I er I had to er see a solicitor or something. Not er to pay but a bloke with knowledge to ask him what was my rights, you know and all that sort of thing. Changing from making locks. Changing from being employed to being self-employed, it's, it's a big change that is you and er, and er the union... the union helped me and er told me what I could do and what I couldn't do and all that sort of thing. I had to pay some money, I just forget now, very little but er as I've said half a dozen times now, I always wanted to do what was right, you know, and I aim to do that. That's how I've er that's how I've gone through life, my lad, that is.

[speaker001:] In Walsall, August fourteenth, nineteen hundred and six. I have two brothers, one older and one younger. Shortly afterwards we moved to, and we lived there for many years.... The family had always been interested in the leather trade, indeed as far back as eighteen hundred and fourteen er, our ancestors were tanners in the south country, and we make an article known as Hooper's saddle food, which is much sought after by the saddlers, and other people using similar sort of leathers.... Worked for the firm of with whom my grandfather was connected and also my uncle. were rawhide merchants and grandpa joined the firm to start them in the leather trade. Subsequently... he started the Walsall branch to where my father went and also the Northampton branch, to where my uncle went. And also, in later years, my cousin was... o o operating, was working with in the rawhide trade. Father was... very ill, he had T B, and during the war he became worse and shortly afterwards... fifty seven he died. I was then twenty years old and was asked to take charge of the Walsall business.... My cousin er... what's name now Kenneth was the Lieutenant Colonel, and was the youngest commanding officer in the army at the time of Alamein. He was killed in this battle... erm, is that of interest? I don't know. Erm... with regard to the leather trade, I worked for until I was... fifty... until I was fifty-four years old.... After which, I decided to... get into the leather producing industry rather than the purely merchanting business and I joined... as a director of the main board.... In this capacity, I started where we built a new building in, a very nice... building of handmade bricks and, expensively... constructive... I also was the... principal negotiator when Harvey hired the firm of in Walsall. Unfortunately... due to a difference of opinion in the after casing of new methods, this was not a successful venture. Because was very fine producers, of top-class saddlery and other leathers in the old style. The new methods of mass production, were unsuccessful and was closed down a few years later. [J. Hammond:] Why were they unsuccessful? What, what was the problem there? [John:] They brought in management and er, I've got, I've got erm,... I, I'll show you a, a thing about it. Do you want to know that? Can you co up again if you can co... I'm going back to The reason being that the approach to the business was one of quality and... a large amount of hand-finishing, and, the leathers were aimed mainly at the, saddlery and leather goods trade and also only at the very top end of the shoe trade. Under the new management, the idea was to get into the production of leather for the shoe trade with modern machinery and mass-production methods.... These... were not... understood by the workers and the... management on the floor, and indeed should never have been put into operation. With the old style of production, with a little extra help in the marketing and on the financial side, it would have been a big success. Is that all right? [J. Hammond:] Yes. [John:] I'm not used to this you know. What am I going to say now? [J. Hammond:] Erm, what was your job exactly? What, what did you do? [John:] At? I was a director, but I had no responsibility in the production of leather or indeed in any of the management, er,... erm methods. I did my best to oppose... er, these new er, schemes and found myself in the majority of one quite often. And of course and what, dear oh dear oh you go [J. Hammond:] How many people did they employ there? Was it a large concern? [John:] was the biggest, leather producing unit in Walsall. At one time, I think I'm right in saying that they had two hundred people. Certainly at the time of our... taking over, the... the number of operatives would have been... not far short of a hundred.... It was [J. Hammond:] And whereabouts was their premises?... Whereabouts was the premises? [John:] Oh the premises er, are, were, erm in er, between er, er and. And indeed in those days, the whole of that area belonged to even the... land facing onto was... nearly wholly owned by. [J. Hammond:] So what happened to them? I mean, are they still in existence or [John:] Ha [J. Hammond:] have they been taken over completely? [John:] shut. I was then... put in er, charge, if that's the correct word, of disposing of the premises and er, we sold a part to Harry who was an old friend of mine er for his garage purposes... and er, later on, purchased a large building in the middle of... of erm, er, this area, which was still being used as a leather currying works... and so on. Er [J. Hammond:] And when was this? About what year, would you say? [John:] ... About nineteen... before... to sixty-nine. [J. Hammond:] And then when, where did you move on to, from, from that point? You yourself, what did you do? [John:] Well erm, the firm of er, was taken over by... Geoffrey and myself were... the two main board directors... mostly in favour of the takeover.... But shortly afterwards,... er, I was... in confrontation with the chairman... the basis of my contract with was such that it was not to his liking and I was not prepared to... give way in the matter and was dismissed within... six months of... the acquisition of by.... I was then sixty-four years old and I started a business... again as John... [J. Hammond:] Where was that? Was that here or is this in? [John:] Oh no. Er, I didn't have any... idea er that I was going to start, obviously, er, but er, I first started at home in the backroom and had letters all over the floor. Within a few months I took a small office space... oh dear... I can't remember. [J. Hammond:] What that was? [John:] Can I go back? It was in, it was in where [J. Hammond:] Yes. [John:] I took the offices yes. [J. Hammond:] Tell me exactly what you were doing. [John:] Merchanting er, is the buying and selling of materials not the production of materials, and erm, I was... probably the first person from this area, in the leather trade, to go to China and we started to do quite a large business with China, so that immediately I was on my own, the first big operation I took was to go to China and make very substantial purchases of pigskin leather.... Then... shortly after that I moved... to where [clears throat] because no one else who wanted to buy the old buildings, I purchased them from the firm of er in... our own right, no ou, in my own right and I started my office there where I had warehouse space. [J. Hammond:] they were all leather manufacturers? [John:] ... We sold quite substantially locally but also we had a reasonable export business. We erm, sold... bigger parcels to other parts of the countries in, in this town because we were not dealing specially in Walsall leathers at that time. Erm... we were agents for a firm called in Australia, who made very good leather indeed, and we did sell quite a large... amount of his tanneds to the local er firms for the saddlery trade. [J. Hammond:] Where else did you acquire leather from? You mentioned pigskin from China and pigskin Australia. [John:] Er, that's a difficult question because we bought er... anywhere we could er, and where we thought there was leather that we could make a small profit on. Indeed erm... I can say this now er that at that time, unknown to... the... top management of I was buying large quantities of leather from my old firm it into the town, right past the front door of my old offices which were now the hea the local headquarters of our and selling them, literally, within sight of the building that used to be the place where I operated from on their behalf. [LAUGHTER] [J. Hammond:] When did you come to then Mr? And what was the firm doing when you... came here were they [John:] This is a very old established firm. Er, it started in eighteen fifty six, had been currying leather for the saddlery trade all those years and it was then a subsidiary to and was making saddlery leather for them, but in addition, quite a large production of fancy leather for the local light leather goods trade.... After er, purchasing we continued to produce the same materials... erm, mainly er, directed towards the saddlery trade. Later, at the time of the... collapse of the empire, we also purchased the small er manufacturing... plant in which again was a plant that I'd started.... We produced there only fancy leathers... However, two years ago, we decided to close this plant in mainly because I'm getting fairly old nowadays and my son had many activities to take charge of. So we concentrated our leather producing efforts in in where we make... almost exclusively leather for the saddlery trade. [J. Hammond:] Where do you get your hides from? [John:] This is, at the moment, a difficult question. The immediate answer is the hides as such, almost entirely come from the British Royal Hides which are tanned in this country and then er, find their way back to... Walsall er for the saddlery trade. Unfortunately, there are only two or three tanners left in the country who produce the type of leather that's suitable for this trade. And, in addition, we're suppliers to other countries as well particularly the European countries. So that the source of supplies for the saddlery trade... is becoming more difficult year by year. One can look around the world but... even though there are somewhat similar leathers produced in South America and Africa, they're not really... quite suitable for the better end of the Walsall trade. We can all still bring leather in from our friends in Australia... but for reasons that I don't... wholly understand, this is very much dearer than the local er supplies available and for the time being it's not of interest to the saddlery-makers in Walsall. [J. Hammond:] Erm, do you export any of your finished items here? [John:] Yes, you're asking us er, a question which now is erm pass, er politically er not, er very, er advantageous to put on the air for public erm interest, however, we do export er quite considerably. Er we export to France. We export a little to the United States. Er we export some to India... We export... and anticipate to export a fair quantity to another country, which for the purpose of our own affairs shall be nameless. [J. Hammond:] Erm, does climate affect the finished item? [John:] Yes. Er, the question you are now asking, er is really concerned with the final finish of the material. Some buyers prefer the grease to be left lying thickly on the grain and the flesh of the leather and t so that it will gradually be absorbed and also they can then brush it up when they have got the goods, when they are making it up in their workshops. But for the local manufacturers, we pedal it and dress it up here before it is delivered, so that it's then in its final beauty, ready for being cut up into the various items of saddlery. [J. Hammond:] Are there any other currying firms such as this in the area? [John:] Not in the area. Er, there's one other firm in Walsall called who are... very fine producers of saddlery leather, indeed, the leaders. They are much bigger, much er, better mechanized and very good quality producers. Er... we are good friends, er although competitors and erm... my view is that... that whoever, who are the Walsall producers... make the best leather we can be found in this country. [J. Hammond:] Would you say erm at one time there were many more firms? [John:] Oh, years ago, when I was a boy, there were twelve tanneries in Walsall. There must have been... more than twenty curriers... Nowadays there are no tanneries and there are only three curriers... So the answer to your question is yes, many, many more. A lot occasions it is a contracting trade. It's contracting not only as regards the Walsall trade, but for the simple reason that... hides and skins at ma v very largely found in the... countries of... Asia, Africa and South America. Now all these countries have much cheaper labour force, most of them have warmer climates and with the advantages of low-price labour and also less expensive from the point of view of having to dry out leather and... do these various processes that come in the production, the erm... the leather tanning trade is being increased in those countries, with the knowledge and indeed the design of the western countries, because tanning is not the most salubrious of, er works. There are certain smells and there's er effluent problems and very often they're quite glad to get rid of the tanneries if they're anywhere near the middle of the towns. [J. Hammond:] Do you promote your products [John:] That's an interesting question. We don't promote them. I disagree with advertising. I think it's an unnecessary expense and we take the view that if the product is good and if the price is fair, buyers will come to us. If we spend a lot of money in advertising, I think it's not only unnecessary, but wasteful.... At least it [J. Hammond:] Had they had any problems getting labour? [John:] Always, that we now could of, do with one or two suitable workers er there were problems throughout trade. Our friends who are saddlers and bridle makers can't get workers and nobody, there aren't any workers in the currying and tanning trade... available. It's quite possible that there are one or two old gentlemen, but... when one wants to find... a new operative, one really is looking for somebody to come in the trade who will be with the firm, all being well, for a number of years. [J. Hammond:] Why can't you get these sort of people now? What are the reasons for this... these shortages? [John:] I can't answer that question. I don't know. [J. Hammond:] What are the main uses of leather today would you say? [John:] Of course, that's too simple. There's a very large amount of clothing which is new in the last twenty years, because the technology of producing leather is such that the skins can be split thinner and still retain their strength. The leather processing is such that they can produce leather with very soft handle, nearly as soft as er, as er fabric er,ja er, erm jacket or costume er and also it's er become a fashion article. So... after the shoe trade, the clothing trade is of an immense importance. Gloving has declined somewhat. You don't see all the ladies pulling their gloves on every time they go to church or appear in public, er and certainly men, very, very rarely... wear, use gloves... possibly, as we're driving cars, we're not exposed to the cold. If we were walking backwards and forwards er to our offices, we'd pro er probably wear gloves in the cold weather. Then... there were so many other uses of leather. [J. Hammond:] What percentage of the total would be the saddling and harness side of it then? [John:] Minimal. Minimal. Er, it wouldn't matter to the leather trade as such or to any of the countries, er if there was no saddling and harness trade, and that goes for countries like erm, Britain and France and Germany and United States and so on. Obviously, of course, it matters in the sense that people who want to ride horses and race horses and hunt with horses and this sort of thing, so that as a pleasure thing, er it's good er to have the leather for those purposes. But one has to bear in mind that it is always possible that you could have other materials for riding and so on. Not as good, but nes nevertheless... er such things are possible.

[speaker001:] Okay, well now er I er le tell you straight up? I do said this before hadn't I? Erm that erm about erm... me father coming down from the top of the ah ah well, this was January the thirty first, nineteen hundred and sixteen and er... me father had been up to look after the horses, pigs etc you know, and about eight o'clock he came back and said to my mother that there was a big fire out at Wensbury Me mother and all of us went up there, and er we could see these blazing buildings over there, and er mother immediately said that's no fire, that's the Zeppelin's, and er that's what it turned out to be, of course. So, course... a bit later we all went off to bed and er... well I, the next thing I remember were was er me father coming grabbing out to me and me brother, and chucking us more or less out of ou get off downstairs and get under the table! And er, as there were seven of us you can imagine [LAUGHTER] that was a bit of a [] problem. But anyway, that's what we did. And er,... we stopped there for some time and nothing happened and me dad says Gil! Go and put that lamp out in the street, cos there's one about fifty yards up the road. So now, of course, Gil immediately goes out, climbs up the lamp and just pulls the thing and it. Well, about, I don't know how long ago but we were stuck under the table for [LAUGHTER] some time [] and er eventually we could hear this whirring noise like, you know and er... I, I was a bit more daring than me brothers and I sneaked out and went out to the backdoor,an and looked up and there I could see this er Zeppelin in the sky, you know! And it, knew it was a Zeppelin because that was the only thing we knew [] heard of like, you know. And er, then all of a sudden I opened a sort of a door up in there, the light flashed down like somebody with a big torch you know. Course [LAUGHTER] I immediately darted back [] in the house and told me dad and well, and er... he says er, you can look out for some trouble then now like, you know and er,... nothing happened. After a bit, me dad went out to see what was going on and all of a sudden there was such a crash, and erm then there was two more like, you know and er we heard what, what we assumed was somebody's house tumbling down but it was our stable unfortunately. They'd hit right on the corner of the stable and er me dad went to go out. Well, we thought he'd gone out, but apparently he must have got to the door just as the bomb landed, and the blast blew the door backwards, er the door inwards, knocked me dad backwards and at the back of him we had a cellar, but it went through this, the cellar door and although it turned round before it went down the cellar, he finished up down there because we didn't know this til after a while that... me brother wou didn't offer to go out, so I went out think, to find where me dad was you see. And er, er, the next thing I remember was er, er being picked up by somebody off this pile of bricks and the doctor told me that it was a gas, some sort of gas has come out of it which had overpowered me like, you know. And er, [J. Hammond:] Gas out of the bomb? [Gilbert:] Out of the bomb, yes. And er, of course, I, I'd soon all right like, you know but er, it was at, but of course me dad wasn't there. Of course I didn't know that cos I'd conked out with this gas you see. Apparently they either found me dad down the cellar or he recovered and come up the cellar like, you know. It hadn't really hurt him, only a number of bumps like, you know. Well, of course, when daylight came and I... of course it was midnight see when that happened and early in the morning and er, oh there was a, crowds of people coming. Course we was feverishly trying to chip the bricks and things off the horse then how, what had happened because we'd got two stalls for them, and there was pigs in the one side and the horse in the other one, but of course when we eventually came to it, or they eventually came to the horse, he was dead, been killed standing up there like, you know and er, poor old pigs was all dead as well and... as I said, about a hundred fell and two or three would been blown [LAUGHTER] sky high. We never saw no more of them. [] But er... I suppose... in a lot of senses it could been worse. It could have been the house you see. And the funny thing was, it broke every window in the house except the ones nearest to it. [LAUGHTER] And those remain just the same as they were before. But the frame I think was a bit dodgy but it, we, we never had to have anything done at it. So it showed the difference how they put them up then to what they [LAUGHTER] put them up now []. And, of course, the stables, that was all it, flattened down like, but that was only... at the most... twenty yards from the house. Them were more or less joined on you know. There was as shed in between but that's all. And, of course, the toilet used to be outside, that was quite all right, all those building. But erm, course, we er... you didn't er... think about that part of it then like, you know. [J. Hammond:] Did your father receive any compensation of anything? [Gilbert:] No compensation, but I, I mean I'm talking about after government or anything like that. But the people were very good. I couldn't tell you what, but they collected... quite a lot of money for us and er, and er, er, they were holding things there, er people were holding boxes at the bottom of the gate like and er [J. Hammond:] Is it neighbours [Gilbert:] It, well, it ought, see there were so many people come to see it, but there was thousands you know, at different times like, you know. Oh yes, yes, perhaps and, and everybody would, would come up. I don't know how much they gave, but I do know that it, it, it came into a, a few hundred pounds which is a lot of money in those days you know, when you're talking about nineteen sixteen. But I can't remember what it was because obviously, at that age, you don't bother about money do you like, you know. But erm... as I say, they did er, the people did but you never got nothing off the government for it and er,... I've always said it, he must have been a much better man than I thought he was because er, er, to go as I say from what it was in those days to start his own business and that. And that he had that house built, er, like er, before he got in it and it was paid, built and paid for like, you know and that. I think, when I think it since, I think he must have been a remarkable man to work and slave like that. He was always at work, always Sunday. Now, cos I mean don't forget originally we used to take milk out twice a day, morning and night, because you had to fetch it from the farm. They got no coolers or anything like that, fridges, and nothing of that you know, and er, you'd got a, we used to... fetch it in the morning... and we used to supply... Massey's... Lavender's in... and two other, two or three other little places. We had to make and we used to have to take this milk, [LAUGHTER] I used to take it about [] five o'clock in the morning. And I, I had a little truck and run it down from down into. And er, were at Lavender's right. I used to take about, around about four, four to five gallons, which er, I could er, like erm, carry it down there like to them, you know and er, and then you got out Cos in the ori original days, when I first started as a kid with him, we used to have to take it out morning and night, people, mostly the factory owners and [LAUGHTER] we, we [] had er, had er having twice a day. Well, of course, there was, they got no methods of keeping it you see. [J. Hammond:] You were, you were at school presumably, erm at the time of the Zeppelin raid. [Gilbert:] Oh I, when I, when I went there the next morning I had to tell all in front of the class and tell all the kids. [LAUGHTER] I did I, yes. [] Yes, I, I was in er, I'm not sure, I, I think I was in the top class in the junior school and er, without boasting, I was a good scholar and I eventually passed to go to the Q M and me dad couldn't afford to let me go. [LAUGHTER] But er, I er, I, I went into from standard four in the junior school to form four in the senior which was standard six. I passed me own brother by [LAUGHTER] in the process. And er, er, I was only in there one year and then I went into form five for three months and I, I went into the form six. I was in there nearly three years, or two and a half years anyway and, of course, I... when I passed to go to the Q M of course, I, I used to do the Headmaster's and all that but they, they couldn't teach me any more because you, you can only have the same lessons as them that have been taught you know. But [J. Hammond:] Can you remember any of the other things that were happening in, in the town at the time of the first world war [Gilbert:] Not er, no on, on that particular night that erm,tha that the air raid was. A man had a got killed, and there was a man named out at he lost one eye. I can tell you that he lived at number... forty-one I think, yes forty- one if, if you know if you want any confirmation, that is correct. I, I mean I can tell you the names of the [LAUGHTER] [] of all, everybody in them days, round the fleck area like, you know. But [J. Hammond:] Do you remember anything called the tank bank [Gilbert:] Tank bank? [J. Hammond:] The tank bank. [Gilbert:] No, I can't say. I seem to remember,i i i you know, you try to bri you brought something back into me mind through saying that but er... I, I can't, I couldn't tell you nothing about it no... no I couldn't tell you nothing about it. [J. Hammond:] Do you remember of the territorials leaving at the beginning of the war? [Gilbert:] Well I, I didn't remember them no. I, I knew some of them but I didn't remember them leaving like. I ye you know being working with me dad on the milk round you didn't have chance to go anywhere an and that's perfectly true. I never had a holiday for about... ten years. Not because I couldn't have had a holiday only that er... we had loads of milk so we had to go and fetch it from the farms and you gotta have somebody to take it out. Well nobody wanted them jobs because it was a seven days' a week job. I used to work seven days' a week and I, I used to play football. I don't know how I got the [LAUGHTER] time to play. [] I used to start me milkround on a Saturday morning at six o'clock and I'd be still running round at, at one o'clock and some of these, two o'clock sometimes, if it was bad weather. Some of these footballers now can't play when they're resting [LAUGHTER] all the week. [] Er, no [J. Hammond:] Would you say [Gilbert:] Ooh yes, definitely, definitely yes, I would say... you, you know nobody ever expected they could get this far and I, I've heard people say this, you know. More, more recent than then, because as a kid they don't talk to you about them things do they like, you know. But erm, yes I've heard a lot of people say that er, they never thought they could get this far. And I mean these were sens people who I know like since, were sensible people like, you know. And er... really... er they themselves thought exactly the same like, but they were talking about other people telling them you know that they couldn't get this far but they did. I never expected them to, I'll tell you the truth, but then again at that age you don't think they ever will or it'll ever happen to you do you? [J. Hammond:] Were there any air raid precautions that night at all? [Gilbert:] Any what? [J. Hammond:] Air raid precautions. [Gilbert:] No, no. [J. Hammond:] Not before the raid or afterwards? [Gilbert:] No, I don't ever remember any anyway... No, I don't ever remember. I, as a matter of fact, I don't think there was any such things er thought of like, you know.... But er, I never heard of them if they did and er,... I mean I, I used to... involve meself not in politics or anything like that is the last thing I ever [LAUGHTER] thought of [] involving meself in but er, I did er, sort er, well being on the milk round you used to see the people in, because they come to door to bring a jug you see and you, you talk to people and you know they were, er were sensible and they were, were should I say soft or [LAUGHTER] had no er conversation at all like, you know. But er, know I, I don't think I ever heard anybody think about it or say anything about a, an air raid like, you know. Because er... as far as I'd concerned I'd never heard of air raids before hand you know, know I hadn't and I was, as I say, I was only nine and a half I know but er, I did use to speak to a lot more people than most, er lads of that age did like, you know. Cos I, I tell you, I used to go to Hunsdon fetch this milk of a morning and coming back, I'd empty the one can and I had a cal a, a gallon in each can an and er, the first erm, the first call coming back was at that big house on the corner of. I think it's called or something. Its on the left-hand side, and er some people named lived there. I used to leave two pints or three pints there depending what they wanted. Then he lived about half way and, and er, one or two more he lived at the top house on the right and somebody over the other side. I forgot their name. [LAUGHTER] Well I'd emptied that one can. There was only eight pints in a gallon. [] and the other gallon. I used to come, and I used to go from there just past the top of there was two biggish houses erm... who was it lived in the one some, somebody named and er and then there was... er who was something to do at er on and somebody named who was, got a brewery at Dalston and, and they were ladies and proper genteel-type ladies at that. And, and whenever they knew you've come would you, would you walk through and, and they used to for us every time an tha and that in those days they'd give you a couple of bob which is, it was a fortune to me [LAUGHTER] at that age. [] And er, then there was a fellow named and then which was works at Darleston and erm... and erm nextdoor down, they got a factory at Dalston as well. And er, and that was, er go and did this before I went to school. [LAUGHTER] [J. Hammond:] Do you remember seeing any of the first world war soldiers about while you were working, on your travels coming home on leave or anything like that? [Gilbert:] No I can't er, I can't tell you that I did definitely, although I, I've heard a lot of them at times but er, I'm not sure. We always keep the home fires burning and them sort of things like, you know. The lads used to sing them like when er, but as I say, it wasn't anybody... only just the kids round as we played about with you know. Because in them days er I, I think most of us [LAUGHTER] had to, had to do some work. [] You didn't have time to er... to go and er, and play too much. Well I, we didn't because me nor me brother and that. I'm afraid I was a bit tougher than me brother. I had to take his part although he was older than me. [LAUGHTER] But er, I suppose I had a happy lif well I know I've had a happy life. I've enjoyed it, if, if it wasn't easy like, you know. Cos people often [LAUGHTER] used to say [] to me because I'd, I'd played everything you could play except golf, and, and er, and I, I, people used to say you did two men's work and you... I, I met a chap one day, this was an instance, I'm not trying to blow me trumpet don't think that at all. But er, I met a chap this one day, he says well I, I saw you this morning taking milk out, he says I saw you this afternoon taking coal out, he said I see you tonight going playing tennis. [LAUGHTER] And it was true, I did and er, and I did reasonably well at most of the games that I play but er... I played cricket for St John's and... I played when I was in the army [LAUGHTER] at this last [] time and er, and erm, you, you know it's I, I think if you make up your mind and you're fit enough. I, I'll put that first see, because I, I was always fit. I never know what it was to, [LAUGHTER] not do anything, go, go to the doctor's and be bad or anything like that. The first thing I never went to the doctor with when I, I tumbled off the wall down [LAUGHTER] cut me head open and [] that's the only, and then after I got used to playing football they must've, have put a steel inset into your head the way I head that ball. [LAUGHTER] But [J. Hammond:] did you play any games that were connected with the war in any way? [Gilbert:] No. [J. Hammond:] Pretending to be soldiers or anything? [Gilbert:] No, I never saw lads er, er, the game that seemed most popular with us, I don't know whether you have, it's nothing only really hopping across the road. Lancashire they used to call it and, we used to, they used to set one on at first and then, as he knocked, if he could knock one off his feet onto his two feet, then he had to help him to [LAUGHTER] knock the others over as they come in close [] and er, I know they don't sound nothing like, you know, now but er, in them days we use to think it was great. [LAUGHTER] Only because it meant knocking the others over like, you know. But er, no I can't never, er, remember anything like that you know. Kids [J. Hammond:] The summer time was introduced in the first world war, do you remember that [Gilbert:] Er, I can't say that I, I, I, I know they did do that yes, but I can't say that it er... it interfered with us much and I can't er,ev ever think of anybody, you know wh... sort of talking about it like in any respect. No I can't. [J. Hammond:] Do you recall any types of food that were different difficult to obtain [Gilbert:] [LAUGHTER] Well again you see, I, I, with us keeping our own pigs which we always did, we were always better off than anybody else and er... we er, we, you see when we kept these pigs, we used to... either buy or, or breed some young ones see. Well when they was feeding these up, you could have one for yourself as long as you let the government have one, see, and er, er, of course the next to feed a pig up, see, but er, I mean if you could fed them properly you could erm,... perhaps get one ready in er, six to nine months you see, and er, which would be a, a good bacon pig like, if you fed it er, correctly. [J. Hammond:] How heavy would that be? [Gilbert:] Well er, probably about er... in them days they used to call them twelve score and then so it'd be twelve, two's or something that's two hundred forty pounds I suppose like, you know and er, but most of the people er. See a lot of people used to save us their peelings and bits like that. Well all these people, we would always let them ha when we killed one we would share it out amongst the people who had given them, like er, I don't say every time but occasionally we would do that and we'd let them have a piece of pork you see, which we could legally do see. [J. Hammond:] This was during the war [Gilbert:] That's during the war yes and er, of course this is the first world war I were referring to and erm, the people appreciated this and we used to give it to them like you know. I mean some of them wanted to [LAUGHTER] pay [] but I said no you helped us to feed them so, this, this were me dad's idea you see, he was always very fair-minded me dad was. But er,... we did, and we, we, were thanked on a, in a numerous ways as well with people who was able to get things that we couldn't get like, and, and they give them us like, you know in return. [J. Hammond:] Did a lot of people keep pigs during the war [Gilbert:] Well, no I don't say a lot, but more people than they did in peace days even then you know. They had, but they found it difficult because you'd gotta, gotta get a licence to keep them you see. You could keep them a as long as it was a reasonable way from the street as you might say and, and were fortunate because our pigstys had been built years before and they were ooh, suitably fifty to sixty yards from the main road you see, but [LAUGHTER] I used to laugh [] at that when we, when we were having these pigs killed. You'd see all the kids there peering through the cracks [LAUGHTER] in the, in the gate stand [] cos they used to squeal blue murder you know and er, I know it's er it's [J. Hammond:] Who used to kill them? [Gilbert:] Pardon? [J. Hammond:] Who used to kill them? [Gilbert:] Oh we had a butcher to kill, kill them. We, we always, we were lucky we ha knew a man named he lived on and he was a butcher in his rights, his own rights you know, just like and, and but er, me dad's brother or somebody knew him and, and he used to come and do it for us like, you know. And er, he was a good clean butcher, what I call a clean butcher, you know. I mean in, in he didn't leave it all over the yard and all that you know. It all washed down and that and we never had any trouble. Course the inspectors used to come and examine them you see er, like [J. Hammond:] After they've been killed? [Gilbert:] After they'd been killed, yes. [J. Hammond:] To make sure they were all right to eat them [Gilbert:] That's, that's it. [J. Hammond:] Is that why they come? [Gilbert:] Yes, yes. They used to come and er, and they'd come and er, and, and sometimes they'd oh would want a, a little bit off there like, you know and I'd say oh well, the people who's helped us to feed them they're gonna have a bit like, you know. But er, I didn't believe in, well it was me dad's pigs of course, but I was there at the time as well like, you know. But [J. Hammond:] How did you manage to keep the meat, erm, without refrigerators? [Gilbert:] Oh er, we'd got a cellar and it was a real good'un, you could er leave it down there, salt, salted you see. [J. Hammond:] Oh yes. [Gilbert:] And er, not brine, salt. It's the same type of thing but it's [J. Hammond:] Was it just ordinary salt? [Gilbert:] That's right. [J. Hammond:] rubbed in or [Gilbert:] Yes, rubbed in, yes and er, er of course we'd do that with the hams and we'd do it with the shoulders of the bacon, cos [J. Hammond:] And how long would it take [Gilbert:] Ooh twelve months like that, as long as you get it dried properly at first you see. And er, and, and yo you can do it to keep it. We did occasionally get the flies blowing them like, you know, but as long as you get it, got it in time and cut it down and cut it up straight away it was all right like. We never seemed to have much trouble anyway. We, as long as you could use the shoulders and the hams, the other part would be quite all right, oh yes, you got the bacon there hanging up sometimes longer than twelve months, mm. [J. Hammond:] Come in very useful. [Gilbert:] Oh yes and er... what I, I didn't I, say I told a lie. I didn't deliver, to tell a lie, but I did tell you a slight wrong thing. When I left school I wouldn't go on with me dad at first, I said I wanted to play football and me dad didn't want me to play football and he said you can't do a milkround and play football. Well I went and worked in a factory for about nine months I suppose, and the man himself, cos it was casting, brass castings, the man himself says, he says look son, this job's no good to you I'll tell you that. He says an which he says you've worked... so hard, cos I worked for two casters which I shouldn't have done really, but that's how I were used to working you see and er, he said er, I said well me dad keeps asking me to go and work for him, and he said well... I'll tell you what I'll do with you, he says you've worked so hard for us, this bloke came from Bloxford you know He says you've worked so hard for us, he said we'll agree to you going with your father, er for a month and see whether you like it, and if you don't like it, come back and we'll give you your job back. An it don't matter who we've set on we'll stop him. Cos, you used to work for the castronery had to pay you see, not the firm. You had to, we worked for the castronery at the back. They had to pay you see. [J. Hammond:] What did you used to do? What was your job? [Gilbert:] You, well you, these and things see, they, they was all sort of er furniture particularly they used to make a lot of. And er, that was in very big demand in those days and of course us being the whatsernames, they, we used to have these things. Th there was sort of decorations on the saddles and things like that you know, and er, er, they had this firm and it was up of course, well, and it, to tell how far it was I had to be in by seven o'clock and I used to run it all the way. Not because I was made to be late, but I, I, I, I'd, me mother had made me cos she said you gotta come home to your dinner and there was no buses there were trams in them days, but I'd got to get into the town. I could, I used to run it down and er, and that's the only reason me mother would let me, but they was pleased as punch when I stopped and went and worked for me dad again. Well again, I, I, I had to do it as a kid but [LAUGHTER] I didn't [] afterwards but er, I er, tell you about this chap and I even went back and told him. I says I'm gonna stop with me father and they said well, we're sorry to lose you but we know this trade's know good to you and we hope that you'll stay with your dad and, well I did, I stayed with me dad until, as I say after I come out of the army and they wouldn't let me increase me coal trade. And [J. Hammond:] How many customers did your dad have? [Gilbert:] Oh I er, I dunno there was, course there was m there was me, me dad, me brother and meself... er... oh I suppose it's hard to say. Well I used to serve about... I used to serve close on 200. [J. Hammond:] What did you used to take the milk out in? Was it horse and cart? [Gilbert:] Yes, yes, horse and cart, yes, and er, and me brother... course we had er bought another horse by then. Me brother used to go, he used to do erm... er this street, funnily enough I used to do,,, and And er, I done down I served nearly every house an and down the side streets. Me brother served here,,... and just round there and erm, then he used to do erm, up Wood Green an an and we used to serve down er We was only milk people who went down. There weren't many houses, but there was a few when you got to the bottom, see. Er when I say a few, about twenty perhaps, thirty, and er, of course, it was... then me brother got the order for the canteen as well see. So it was quite er, a bit to do like, you know. But he didn't do quite as much as me I don't think like. [J. Hammond:] Did you have to fetch the milk fresh each morning? [Gilbert:] Oh yes, but it wa was down er ha had it from until they had to close down. That's er, where is now. All there. And there was er, he, he, used to have some fields up Wood Green as, as well that he turned the cattle into. Those over, still over the bridge like now, you know and er, where the brook comes through, but of course there was no, er, there was no houses at the back end you see, it went right [J. Hammond:] few changes round here then? [Gilbert:] Ooh gosh and me dad yes, he used to do er, er, er, just a, he didn't do, do too many but he, he had, like a sort of a push truck like, you know and he has to go up and that, that only round not too far and he, he like to do it I think more. We could've done it really, but it kept him in with the people like and er. Course he, he used to know a lot of them round there, because there was more houses at the top of than there is now and all round there you know. Quite a few old ones up there there was, even up on the left-hand side. Er... I would say, about eighteen to twenty close up to the top. Cos they were all small ones you know, like some up Dalston. I mean there was houses in the street and there was like these courtyards at the back of them. [LAUGHTER] That's right. [] You know you wouldn't know there was houses there if you didn't go up there and see mm. [J. Hammond:] Was the football ground [Gilbert:] The what? [J. Hammond:] The football ground [Gilbert:] oh yes. I played on [LAUGHTER] there a good many times. [] Yes, oh that was there mm. But er... yes there, there was er,th that was,wa was the football club was there all along like, you know... There used to be, that one what's still on, on but that used to belong to the L N S then, they had er, a good football team. Some of me lads, as I told you, as well they went to play for them like, you know. When they got a bit older. But er [J. Hammond:] What was like in those days? [Gilbert:] er, it, it, it's er, it more or less finished, er when you went over the bridge like. There wasn't a broadway of course, you must remember this before I tell you see. Er there was down, and, and, farm was on the right and it went the back where old is around there. That was all his fields you see. And of course was a very prominent ma er the chemical people, that was the hunt he was concerned with... with it. And er, he erm... he, he was quite all right. He was the sort of, liked to be looked upon as the local squire. I mean if he saw me or anybody who he knew, hello young [LAUGHTER] that sort of [] thing like, you know. And I always remember me and me sister, Sylvia,sh they're all dead except me now so, er seven of us like, you know. And er, a lot of them were younger than me, but I don't know why but I've lasted lo [LAUGHTER] But anyway,m me and me sister we always used to, we'd say to me dad when we went to fetch the milk with me dad. Course we were only kids ourselves like, you know. So... shall we go and sing a carol? So we went this one [LAUGHTER] Christmas [] I'll always remember it. And er, dad was at the farm and we, there were ba paths that went up to the house see. So we went, which was the backdoor to Started onc singing Once In Royal David's City you know, cos I knew he, he liked that. And er,... he come to the door. Can't you read!... Yes... Well why are you singing carols? Well it doesn't say anything about singing carols. It does on the front door he said. I says well we haven't come by the front door, which we hadn't of course. We'd gone round that back door. [LAUGHTER] He opened his and gave us a couple of bob. [LAUGHTER] Anyway, I always remember another one at the same time, that same Christmas. We, we went up to erm... top of And er, we, we earned mo more money in carol singing [LAUGHTER] we had in anything else. [] And er, we went there and... knocked the door. We started singing a carol.... Er... what the dickens did we sing, The First Noel I think. Well we finished that and the door opened and er... Do you know Once In Royal David's City? And I said oh yes Mr I said know all the carols. Me an me sister, we thought we were [LAUGHTER] [] then he says come inside and sing it for our, somebody, you know. I don't know what his name was, but I was only a little kid like, you know... We, we sung that... He give us half a crown each, He said do you know on, on the I said oh yes. He said would, would you put this card through the door for us. We've, we've forgot to send them a card. So it give us another shilling each. [LAUGHTER] I mean,it it, you know us kids, I mean this was a fortune to us, but I, I don't mind telling you me dad had it off of us [LAUGHTER] when we got home. [] Says that's gotta go in your box. [LAUGHTER] [J. Hammond:] You said wasn't cut through. [Gilbert:] Oh no. That's right [J. Hammond:] What was there then? [Gilbert:] It, it was just fields. [J. Hammond:] Was it? [Gilbert:] That was were they use t and, and it had turned off down er, down where it is now er, down there. We used to serve all those houses down the bottom there, round there. Wel and there was more than there is now like. And er, er, then t to the brook where he, it is now. You,th cos the railway men used to make the path, cos the terrific amount of railway men used to work down at and most of our round consisted of railway people and most of them had come up from Wales and places like that. But anyway, er, you was saying er,th there then was a path which went eventually up to erm, the Boar's Head on, on, the and there was a path across those fields all the way, a walk up there. We used to go and walk round there a [J. Hammond:] So you could walk from right round [Gilbert:] Yes, right to, to and, and you could even go on farther, but I don't think I ever went any further [LAUGHTER] I didn't have time. [] But yes, that was what,wh what it was. [J. Hammond:] And they were all open fields across there? [Gilbert:] Yes, and, and this path was at the side of the fields like, you know, that, went just on the edge like, you know. They ne they didn't, nobody used to, well as far I knew, nobody ever caused trouble in the kids in, like in, on those sort of things. I could do me [LAUGHTER] own wack [] of er, playing about like, you know. Like tying a bottle on the door and sticking it on the window [LAUGHTER] and knock the door [] and they had to come, crash the bottle would go. Used to think that was a glorious [LAUGHTER] But er, not what they do now like, you know. I mean, like some of the kids do now, I think it's terrible, you know. But er, yes that was, that wa tha tha that finished there like er that was the finish of the, of all the traffic there until th Course you can't visualise it now without being broadway. But erm [J. Hammond:] What was the bridge like itself? [Gilbert:] Well,... it, it, it looked very similar, not quite as good as it is now but er, it wasn't no where near as wide of course. It, it was like on only the one half roughly about what the bridge is. But it was in reasonable condition like, you know. But certainly not good condition cos it wasn't used by much, of course being a dead end see. [J. Hammond:] Mm. What about the centre of the itself? What was that like in those days? [Gilbert:] It, ooh yes, it was quite busy, it definitely was busy, and, but er,... it, it, it was in very similar in what it is now, but the shops were all different like, you know. I mean they, people er, the hairdresser's for instance, they seemed to be there for evermore [LAUGHTER] [] at the far end, towards I mean er, er, and then there was half way along on the other side and [J. Hammond:] What sort of shop was that? [Gilbert:] They were both hairdressers those were. [J. Hammond:] One men's and one women's? [Gilbert:] No, they were a both men's. I don't think [LAUGHTER] women had [] their hair done then, did they? [LAUGHTER] Not that I can er, remember. The, the first ladies' hairdresser's was some where up where there is one now, where and whatsername is now I think erm... I do whatsername, towards like, you know. Er... cos his mother lives down now I think, yes. Well,tha that was the,th th the first ladies' hairdresser's as I can ever remember. [J. Hammond:] Was there a shop [Gilbert:] There was a, a toba a tobacconist on the corner of erm, of itself, like. A, a pretty big one. A chap named, ooh, Harry, he used to keep it for a long while, and er... then of course,th the post office was on the er, opposite side of the road to where it is now. That was about the, I would think the fourth shop from er, sommat like that. Because er, I used to serve them with coal and Miss her name was and er... er th there was erm... a sweet shop about tow by that fish shop which was er, er a fish shop even in those days, fish and chip shop even in those days. I'm talking about opposite what they call you know. And er, there was a bloke I used to play football. I, I don't think he played for Walsall, but he played for Bloxford Strollers. He, he was quite a decent footballer, quite a nice chap really. And er... then there was a, a fella named he used to keep the sweet shop and it was a, a sort of a high-class sweets like, you know. They used to, it were very nice shop in those days and er... then of course the next door to that fish shop, the other half going towards was. These people who lived in,ha they had a shop in as well. They had like... well for the sake of saying, pigeon co for food and even... poultry food like, you know, such as er, well they used to call it Sharp's and mix it up like into a mash, you know. But er, that was there though, with their affairs. Then was next to them. Then there was a, the paper shop where, somewhere near where it still is now. And er... ooh what was the name, there was a grocery shop and then there was a, a confectioner's right on the corner of erm... er is it called, that leads off in, into It only, only a short street, there's no houses in it actually. Well, that was then, that was another confectionery er, place like. When I say confectionery, cakes and things like that, you know. Oh there was quite a few and then on the other side there was er, the old reading room where the erm... er, building society is it now, what's there? And oh, on the corner of there was er, er ti whatsername er... what do you call them... these things what sell curtains and stuff like that? [J. Hammond:] Drapers. [Gilbert:] Drapers and things like that. Oh that was there for years, donkey's years when, I can remember when I was at school, going to school and it was still there... quite a number of years after I left school. Oh that's all right. Oh yeah and this chap inherited the money off his mother and father and er, I don't know whether he drunk it or whether he gambled it away, but he lost the business so that, and that was the beginning of the breaking up in my er opinion of the fleck shops like, you know. [J. Hammond:] Do you remember the trams going down? [Gilbert:] Oh [LAUGHTER] yes [] I wa as kids er, I used to, I could always get in with the, the conductresses. I, I of course, I suppose going round with milk I'd perhaps got more confidence th cos I had to take milk whether I wanted to or not, see and we if we got down there and there was two or three of the conductresses down the fleck and er, jump on a Dalston bus cos I'd got to get to like, you know. So er, you, you can ring the bell for the custom er, people to get off and on like, you know. And I had [LAUGHTER] but I was soon off when I got at well just past there to pull up there. But you could jump off them while they were going, so I,an [J. Hammond:] very slowly, did they? [Gilbert:] Well, not too slowly no, but er, they er, they er kept on going like there was a continuous flow of them, you know, all the while. Aye, they seemed to be following one another up the road. But of course nobody had cars you see, in them days. That's what you've got to think of. And er,we oh usually I could get on there for a, you, you can get erm... I think it was a four-way ticket for threepence down the town. I don't know whether it was a return, I forgot that but er, it, it was, it was four for four rides for threepence and er, [LAUGHTER] that's if you're down the town you know, that's quite a few really, for threepence. [] And er, er,an an and as I say I had, like, this was only coming home from school like, you know. But,a another one they used to call a fatty [LAUGHTER] I can remember that even now. [] She was very pleasant as a matter of fact. But, cos I knew a lot of the dra the drivers because er, they were local people like, you know. One or two lived, even the top of on the other side of the road, houses are down now but, er, there was, there was three cot which we call cottages which er, much smaller than the others, but they were still very useful and nextdoor to there... there used to be a, a chap named, oh nextdoor but two. There used to be a chap named They used to work on th on the trams, and they used to, used to seem to work in families like, you know. They had er, perhaps... two men'd on the, the trams and sons' d follow them [LAUGHTER] like [] you know. Ah, then they er, these sort of jobs seem to run in families. But er... ah yes, as I say, there was some happy times and there was some... tearful times no doubt. [LAUGHTER]

[speaker001:] India, Punjab, northern part of India, on fifth of February, thirty-six. [J. Hammond:] And when did you come to live in this country? [Bhagan:] In April, nineteen sixty-one. [J. Hammond:] Did you live an in any other countries in between the two years? [Bhagan:] No, I came from India straight to England. [J. Hammond:] What was your occupation in India? What did you do? [Bhagan:] Erm... Well I'm a trained teacher but er I didn't get much experience in teaching although I had obtained my degree in teaching in nineteen... fifty-eight. I've forgotten all the years now it's so long. [LAUGHTER] Fifty-eight. I graduated in fifty-seven so it was one year's in fifty-eight. Then I couldn't get a job. I joined erm college again to start on my master's degree, because it was just an er gap, filling gap like. So eventually I got a temporary job, er in ni end of sixty, which lasted til er... February sixty one. Er, but by the time I had my passport so I thought may not get a job again better to try the luck somewhere else. So I got er experience of three months now, that was really very nice experience which I always wanted to be a teacher although I didn't join here. So I, I came in April, sixty-one here straight from India. That's, that was all the experience I had which you say experience of life. The rest was all college life. [J. Hammond:] What about the rest of your family in India? Were there any other teachers amongst them? [Bhagan:] No. We were three brothers. Er two of us are here now. Both are of us are in business. He's he in greengrocery in Roehampton, and the third one who is younger to me, elder to the third one, he is in Canada. He was here before but he migrated to Canada. He's working... so none of us... er in any profession at all except er just earning our living. [J. Hammond:] Did you come here by yourself or did some of the members of the family travel with you, when you travel [Bhagan:] No I came with my brother actually, younger brother, who is Canada now. But my father was here before I came. [J. Hammond:] Here in Walsall? [Bhagan:] Here in Walsall, and my, one of my cousins was here. [J. Hammond:] How long have they been here? [Bhagan:] Erm, my cousin left India in nineteen fifty... -six of fifty seven. He went to Fiji, where my uncle was there. My father ha, has got one brother only, there two brothers. Er he was living, the other was living in Fiji. He migrated to Fiji... erm before I was born and my grandfather died in Fiji. I haven't seen my, never saw my grandfather and so family has been out of the country for a few generations now. Er, so... two of us came in sixty-one the third one, youngest one, came in sixty- five. [J. Hammond:] Where did you live when you first came here, whereabouts? [Bhagan:] Erm I came... when I came in England I came here. Er, I stayed at Erm that was the house erm belonged to my cousin He still lives in that house. He di, he's, I think he's the only person who never moved out of the same place. Normally we keep selling and buying the properties. Erm father was living there as well so I er didn't stay long er because we hadn't got a job. [J. Hammond:] What sort of house is that one in? [Bhagan:] It's a terraced house and er, it's double storey, two floors up and er, it was well-used at that time because the reason was one er, there wasn't much accommodation available and secondly it is the custom amongst our people that who's ever er is in need we have the person, like the two of us came from India, my brother and myself, so we di couldn't get a job. We weren't charged any rent. We weren't charged anything for the food, so we were there as guests, although everybody else was working but we was given the most comfortable er [LAUGHTER] room to stay, so it, there were quite a few people living there because of this reason, that er people coming from outside looking for a job, they would automatically er obtain the accommodation without being charged for it. [J. Hammond:] What were your first impressions of Walsall [Bhagan:] Not very good. [LAUGHTER] [J. Hammond:] [LAUGHTER] [Bhagan:] Because er, when I landed er at airport, er one of my relations was living in... er Slough. I went to him first. He was living in a modern flat, nice flat, well-carpeted,wel nice furniture in there and er, you know the difference of Midlands and south India at that time was tremendous. Erm I liked it very much, it was nice and in April. Er he wasn't at, er in when I came, so I left my bag out here on the stairs. I went and to just walk around the town. I was sitting in the car park and I appreciated the area very much, it was nice, clean area but when I came to Walsall it was smoky and [LAUGHTER] dirty area [] I'm sorry to say that and er, but I had no alternative but to stay here because my father was here, I had no money and er, I thought because of relations job prospects might be better here than elsewhere. But, unfortunately, couldn't get a job. So [J. Hammond:] What sort of work did you try and get when you came? [Bhagan:] Any sort. Any sort. Foundry work, labour work for th nothing was available. [J. Hammond:] So what did you do? What was your first paid job? [Bhagan:] Erm... eventually er, one of my teachers in my school had migrated to this country and he was living in Southall at that time and he was working in a bakery. So I wrote him a letter, told him I'm here, I can't get a job, so he managed to get a job for me. That was bakery, near to the London airport north. It used to be airport north at that time, small house on the edge of the Western side isn't it? No, listen, we'll say it's north, say north side of I sometimes losing direction in this country. Because erm, [LAUGHTER] sun goes round very often [] it starts in the winter. Erm [J. Hammond:] So how long were you doing that? [Bhagan:] I stayed in bakery for two years. Erm the working conditions weren't very good and the behaviour of the officers wasn't very tolerable. Because I had come straight from college, it was really difficult for me to tolerate that sort of behaviour, so I managed to er convince the workers to form a union. So I had to they said oh you were the shop steward. So I was shop steward for there, for one year and a half and er eventually because of the row between the workers, myself and er the management, er although we, we obtained a lot of facilities for the workers, a lot of facilities. There was time when they had to bribe er, give some sort of er incentive to the foreman to give them a good time, then it was the shop stewards who would give the... workers to the management who will do the o overtime. So that sort of situation we obtained in a year and a half without going to, going on a strike. But er eventually I found out that er, er, I can't er work peacefully here, because if I stopped for er, fighting for the benefit of the workers then er they will think that er I have been bribed or something like this and if I keep fighting for them then there's no peace of mind, there's always struggle, so I thought I'll leave, and the second was, that I wanted to bring my family into this country and I wasn't saving anything while leaving them because that's a bit expensive area and er, the person who got the job for me he said let's migrate to Yorkshire. It's very cheap ov houses are very cheap and both of us left the job and down there. Here I was erm getting about er seventeen Pound a week. When I wh went to Yorkshire, in, we lived at Leeds, I couldn't get a job and eventually I got a job er in a electrical firm. I used to er wire the erm... was a tube fittings. It was lamps, lamps, and I was getting only ten pounds a week there, which was just enough to, which erm, er expenses for one person. Then I... migrated to... Luton from there. I shifted to Luton. I thought I would get a job there but I couldn't for a few months and er, my wife and two children joined me there and my brother's wife joined us there, and two of us bought the house in Luton. And eventually I got job on a scaffold. It was a very nice firm. I enjoyed er very much that it was job. Erm but erm... then... due to certain reasons of erm... er... it was again er bit of struggle between myself and my colleague and er... I had to choose to leave. [LAUGHTER] Because er, er management erm... to his side actually. I made a mistake by telling them the truth actually and they said you have admitted your fault. So I said do you want the truth or you want me to yourself? He said I want the truth. I said the truth is, that he reported that I was sleeping at night. I, I said the truth is that everybody stop work at twelve and we do our paperwork and and we're normally finished by two o'clock, and if you come to the factory by twelve o'clock you won't find any machines working, and if you come at two o'clock you won't find any storeman working so that is the truth. He said all right, you have admitted you've been sleeping so out you go. [LAUGHTER] So I had no option. And then er, there's a long line of changing jobs and eventually... I... came to Dudley. One of my had a house which was actually a shop previously, but it wa was on the back street, so his suggestion why don't you go into business? And we opened a small shop there and, in a whole week we couldn't even sell fifty pence worth of [LAUGHTER] sweets. [] So [cough] I came to Walsall again, when I left Walsall I never wanted to, to come back to Walsall er because of two reasons. One was I didn't like the Midlands. Secondly I had so many relations. They used to drink a lot of beer... in groups which I didn't like myself. Er it was er... their social evening but for me I wasn't er very enjoyable. When I, when I came here I saw a shop in which was for sale. It was just er... you may say destiny brought me here which I never wanted to come to this place. So I thought let's try. I went to... the agents and it was for two thousand Pounds. I said well it's not that dear. So I said I'll look at it. So we bought that shop for two thousand Pounds. I... er managed to... find thousand Pounds from here and there and borrowing from each other and thousand Pounds was given immorally to me. Er the sale figures were quite good and that. But I had a very... bad experience there again. First week we took only five Pounds, while the er previous owner was doing very well. At lunchtime ooh shelf. a customer comes in and he was my wife I didn't have er beard then I was clean-shaven, because after coming to this country when I couldn't get a job, I thought that this might be a bar so, which wasn't right, but we did it. So it was again a great disappointment for me but er, we carried on this struggle. We were well established for even three months. But I'd been working nights to live on. I used to work four nights and er working all day in the shop, working all night in there. It was er, er, Dunlop factory, wheel, Dunlop wheel something in Dudley, or wheel manufacturers something like this. I've forgot the name. Erm nice place. The conditions of work were very good, were very good, doing ten hours every night. Forty hours in four nights. So it was an uphill struggle and within three months we were doing well in shop and I left my job and since then I'm in Walsall. [J. Hammond:] How did your wife and family settle down? [Bhagan:] They were moving with me all the time and er, the eldest child was four year's old when he came to this country and er, two and a half year's old the girl, younger to him. Er, although they've been moving around with me, but er they did very well in their studies in the end. Er I had very bad reports of work er from the eldest son. He used to go to school erm Mr, I think that was the headmaster same sort of name. Er and he said he's very weak in his studies. I said well there must be some reason? He said change his company then, try that. Well we did. He didn't want to leave his friends, so we found a job in the shop for him packing. I used to pay him, incentive. So that worked. Now he's a doctor in, he's a senior housemaster in erm, er hospital, Sutton Coalfield. [J. Hammond:] You must be very proud of him. [Bhagan:] Oh he's er, he's done very well and the girl she's a dentist. Er she has bought her own surgery in... er Smethwick, but she comes from er,sh she's married, she's got one son and she's expecting another baby any day now. Er she's married in Leicester, they live in Leicester. So, so she travelled from Leicester to Birmingham all day, and they would of then erm had their degrees from Birmingham University. [J. Hammond:] Erm while your children were here and going to school in, in and all that, did they have any instruction from, from the temple, any extra tuition in anything? [Bhagan:] No. [J. Hammond:] In language or culture it was just [Bhagan:] No, no, my children didn't have any, although there's, there's er school going on, er being run by the temple all through these years. But er, because we were, see we, I always had a uphill struggle for many years, so that it wasn't er, tell you the truth I didn't erm devote much time towards the children, it is their own effort really that er they did very well. [J. Hammond:] Erm can you tell me something about the temple in that area in Caldmore, its role in the community, briefly perhaps. [clears throat] Some things that [Bhagan:] Erm well temple in Caldmore has erm played a very important part in the life of the Sikh community, people in the Si er families here. Er number one... that is the only place... where we normally can meet. Er people do go to pub, they do meet, but it's not a family outing because our women don't go to pub, it's not socially approved. So that is a community place for us as well and that is the only place we can, where we can learn about religion other place because this is a foreign country wi who has got a different religion than we are and there is no other institution will, which will ever mention any of the reading apart from which is So it has... played a very important part. When I came it used to be a very old building which belonged to... British Legion club previously and er Sikhs bought from them. We were running in that building er our day to day duties. Then in nineteen seventy... -two... yeah April seventy-two I think, we opened the new building. Then there was a extension to that. Now we have recently added two more halls to the existing building, so it's er, quite er bit of accommodation there for different er duties. We extended er, this er, er, temple by buying the houses around. Altogether I think so far we have demolished er six, seven, seven or eight houses near to the boundary, to add the space to the car park and for the building. Now we've still got four or five houses in er er which are owned by the Sikh temple. [J. Hammond:] That's at the back of the temple [Bhagan:] At the back of the temple yeah. The gardens are er adjoining, adjacent to the er grounds of the temple. [J. Hammond:] What about the old people in your community? How, how are they sort of brought into things... by the temple would they... have special [Bhagan:] We haven't got any special... er way of er preaching or teaching different age groups. Er that's a sad thing and er... our children normally learnt about Sikhism, our religion, just by, as they go in life. We don't teach them specially er they just er learn by living in the community because er, mainly Sikhism is about life, how to live a decent, healthy er social life, which... do doesn't finish here, which leads to eternal union with God. So that is er, oh so it's a part and parcel of day to day er living. [J. Hammond:] Erm... perhaps... children, young people, English young people and children of a similar age have more freedom, more social freedom. Does it cause problems? [Bhagan:] Er it does cause problems yes. It is causing, causing not just lot of problems for us now. Because er... we have different set-up. There are advantages and disadvantages of every set-up, in every society, er which doesn't fit into the er British er social structure. The marriage, a traditional marriage doesn't fit with the Western structure, because our children... er we like arranged marriage. They see that the British children can have their own way. We see that er there is no possibility our children can have because unless until they move around so freely as the Western children do move, that is the only way they can choose the right sort of person as a, as the companion for family. But again we said, see, that er although British children have a lot of freedom, the rate of the success in marriage isn't that great, not very encouraging. So then again we have the reservations regarding the success of the system. While we see that more marriages succeed, although there so some of them might be just dragging, but er a, at least they don't become a headache for the society as children of adult er parents or children with one parent, we don't have that problem. So we do feel that er, while children feel they don't er have the freedom, we feel that er, er, er a very nice system, which has been socially used for, is being sacrificed because we are living in a different set-up. So we are far apart from each other. [J. Hammond:] Erm did you ever face any racial conflicts here in Caldmore when you came? [Bhagan:] Mm I do, still do. [J. Hammond:] Still do? [Bhagan:] Mm, normally er people who can't afford, hesitate to walk around. I, I do hesitate myself because if I walk around normally I have to suffer a lot of abuse by, not by, people by who are walking round, but the people who are passing by in the cars etc. And youngsters normally er when, when they pass by, they will certainly say, at your back, something nasty and so er there is no way just have to an tolerate it... unless, until we want to end up in, behind the bars. [J. Hammond:] Has it become worse or better since you first arrived here? [Bhagan:] Erm it has become worse... in a way that er... we did, I did experience some sort of er, er racial... intolerance... er with the youth, but the middle-aged and the er m older people were very, very er tolerant... I had to ask er when I couldn't find my way, ask my way to certain places and er there was an that er the lady just walked by me er with me and she, she said I'll have to walk with you you can't find it. So she was going to the opposite direction actually, and I insisted that I don't want to take her... that long she would have to walk back again. She said no you can't find your way. But now the situation is that if, er we... stop and ask the way somebody very few people will stop and say it. But I don't blame them for that, if the situation is such that er, er the ladies are scared of the strangers whether he's er coloured or probably the er or white people as well. And there are so many mugging cases which, in which coloured people are involved, so er everything is contributed to it. Er, there's such a change, tremendous change in the general attitudes of the people. See when I came in sixty-one I, I remember, you know B B C cinema? The buses used to start from their to Hampton, and there used to be a place where they would leave newspapers and they put, put a er box there by that and people used to take out newspaper and put the money into the box and er, you can't dream of that sort of thing now. You leave your door open and while, by the time you turn your er back around er something is missing. This er, this is a lot of difference. It's not er racial or something like that it was just the general standard of the people which has so much changed. [J. Hammond:] Erm [clears throat] tell me about Caldmore Green itself now, erm the shops here seem to cater so well for the Asian community, er is this really so, I mean do you have everything [Bhagan:] Yeah, erm When I bought the shop in in nineteen sixty... -six... in Caldmore we were the only coloured people, as far as I can remember. I don't know was there in clothing business, but in groceries certainly we were the only people and there was another shop in er which used to belong to er who now and er, the most popular shop was in er near to the er church. But that belonged to a white person who was, who could speak Punjabi very well, I think he wa he has been living in India for some time. So that was most popular, very busy person and er, since then more and more shops er have been bought by the Asians and now I think er... we cater for, for every need and there are some pubs as well which have been bought by the Asian and The last straw I think is the Conservative club and bought [LAUGHTER] by Mr [] and two of his er partners. So [J. Hammond:] What are they going to do with that place? [Bhagan:] They're using it as, at a, as a club. [J. Hammond:] As a club? [Bhagan:] Mm as a club, yeah. [J. Hammond:] Erm would you say that now you can get everything you need in Caldmore without venturing further afield or [Bhagan:] Erm the situation isn't er the same as is used to be. Erm big stores selling all the Asian er stuff now and so they don't depend on the Asian shops anymore... er the West Indians used to depend a lot on the Asian er grocery stores because er, of er things like erm etc. etc. The people, most of the er sh big stores not even in the, they don't sell even now those things, things. But er the consumption of those er goods have reduced a lot because the new generation's er I think don't bother to eat those things. So the, the eating habits have changed a lot since then... although we have shops which cater for every need of the immigrant community. But immigrant community isn't that dependent on them.... The Asian womens er, women are... er they differ a lot in every way to the Western erm female. One thing they are very devoted wives. They cannot... er, although i it's not that er, er that sort of erm instinct doesn't exist anymore in the Indian-Asian woman. Er there has been cases where... er there has been... er... some sort of erm affairs between... men and women but the majority and psychological er think way of thinking that er the Asian woman always think of their husbands only, nothing else. Er a, they are dependent on them in many ways, b, if they desert, they're not acceptable to this society. So we teach our daughters that er, er, the first and foremost duty they have to perform in life is to like after your husband and elders and bring up the family, and the economical side, contribution from the er female is secondary, although they claim it a part as well, erm as economically as well. [J. Hammond:] Do they go out to work? [Bhagan:] Most of them most of them do go out to work. Specially the Indian women. Erm the Pakistani women, they have started venturing out now. Er we've been in, ten years in this shop and er, for those ten years I have experienced a lot of er difference in the attitudes of Muslim women as well. They have started working and er they have started going out to work in the factories as well. [J. Hammond:] Do you think this is a good thing? [Bhagan:] It is a good thing. Er it is a good thing as a health thing because they, at home they didn't get the company. It was boring for them and now they go out they spend some time er amongst each other and they have time to chat around. Er wh when you earn something with your own efforts it, it also helps the money you get earned by somebody else. [J. Hammond:] What about language difficulties, do the women [Bhagan:] It's tremendous. Er it's very serious. Er they're getting on well because erm, er we live in a close er society. We're, they tend to buy houses where er others, there are already er houses of the same community.... So... we don't experience that difficulty but otherwise it's very serious.... It's very difficult to communicate. [J. Hammond:] What sort of jobs do the women do? [Bhagan:] It's mostly sewing job in the clothing factories, low-paid. [J. Hammond:] Is it local? [Bhagan:] Local, yeah local. [J. Hammond:] Do you get your supplies locally from [Bhagan:] We [J. Hammond:] the area? [Bhagan:] Er... we do get locally as well and from outside as well. There are people, wholesalers coming from London who supply us the goods... and er... there are some goods which are manufactured in this country, some are imported. The majority of the are made in Leicester. [J. Hammond:] You've got such a wonderful array down there. I was looking at them. [LAUGHTER] [Bhagan:] [LAUGHTER] Well we have to keep variety to... make something. [J. Hammond:] There are fashions are there as well for... for the women not [Bhagan:] Yeah [J. Hammond:] bother them quite so much. [Bhagan:] Erm recently this er... Asian dress has become very popular er, you know, in India it's a country. Punjabi's, Punjabi women wear these baggy trousers and er. The women used to wear sari and I have never seen a lately with anything but sari, but now they have started wearing the Punjabi dress. So it has become a fashion now. Er instead of buying ready-made er dresses I suppose which wer became er very popular at one time with the Indian girls and the Pakistani girls. Pakistani girls used to wear er trousers underneath that. We have stopped that and now they are making their own, most of them are making their own fashionable garments out of the loose material we sell and er, some ask the friends to make for them. [J. Hammond:] Are they warm enough? It always bothers me that they never seem, you know, very warm [Bhagan:] No they're not but they've been getting on all right really. It's not very warm. They wear more, more or less the same sort of er material through the year. Er sometimes I always laugh I say it's funny when erm it's about twenty degrees outside they're still wearing the same dress and when it's [LAUGHTER] minus [] fifteen or ten they're still wearing the same dress. But erm they put on certain warm clothes on. [J. Hammond:] Erm... a few months back I was interviewing someone who lived in the area all their life and she said that the Sikh temple had distributed some E E C erm butter I think it was. Is, is that so? [Bhagan:] Yeah Erm when, you know when they send the free butter, previously they sent butter cheap butter to the big supermarkets, so the distributor charged something for this. Last time er it was er free distribution, so they needed someone to, workers for that and Sikh temple offered their services and er, I think they did the job very well because mostly we get a lot of volunteers round and er, many times I went their there was quite a big queue, er five or six people were serving at the same time. [J. Hammond:] They undertook to do it for the whole of the Caldmore area did they? [Bhagan:] I think they did, yeah... Because I don't get much time during the day er to go away from the shop but er I, the only job I mostly do is when the visitors come to the er temple I have to go there... explain about Sikhism. But er other you can't do everything i o that so it can er [J. Hammond:] Do you get many visitors to the temple [Bhagan:] Yes we get many visitors. We had a teaching-training class today. They came at ten o'clock. I take er assemblies in the morning er in schools, so I wasn't today. I finished assembly at a nine-thirty, ten o'clock I was in temple and er worked there til twelve. [J. Hammond:] Do you instruct them? [Bhagan:] Mm I explain them what we're doing in the temple, what is our religion like. [J. Hammond:] Erm... tell me about these assemblies in the school. What do you do? We've been feeling for some time that our children are feeling that they've been left alone, because er when they come to the temple they are too young to understand anything which is being explained from the stage, because er the speakers, or the preachers, have to cater for all the age groups and normally it's for the, those who understand, already understand about Sikhism.... Er so we wrote to the heads of the schools and they were quite willing to accommodate er us and then I found out that er Muslims are already taking assemblies for a few years. So its been quite helpful. I,w we five, six minutes, we worship the way we normally worship at home. See, Sikh worship is remembering God, that's all. Er, see when, when s, when I say worship it er, it sounds like er, er playing some rituals or something like this, but there's no ritual in the Sikh faith it's just remembering God. So we erm So there are no set prayers or anything like that? [Bhagan:] Yeah yeah, set prayers. See first er, line of er is the set prayer, then we go add to that er, say first full hymn is our morning, what, what we call The first line we would call the basic er say route of the er... magics, that's the magic, which erm, er which erm con controls the er eternal er power. See, it, it brings, takes us near to God, so eventually it helps us to er unite with him. So we recite that at the er er assembly. Then I, for a few minutes, we've got only fifteen minutes so, about twelve to fifteen minutes, and I explain them the historical aspects. Just simple. It's not er a really a teaching which er is important, it's just that they know that er we have a Sikh assembly and since then er I have found er they have a type of great... moral courage, they're proud of themselves. [J. Hammond:] Gives them more identity [Bhagan:] Yes it does give them more identity. See the first week I went to these schools they couldn't speak a word of Punjabi. Wouldn't dare to. It wasn't that they couldn't speak, they didn't no how to speak, they didn't no how to speak but they couldn't. I had to repeat very simple sentences, six, seven, eight, ten times before they could repeat it. Now it's spontaneous. So it has made a lot of difference. I enjoy it very much. [J. Hammond:] Your home life in India, how does it compare with here, the sort of home you had? [Bhagan:] It's very different, very different. I come from a village... It's like er, erm a lion in general, a lion in cage. [LAUGHTER] [] a lot of difference. So when I go back, although I didn't go back since nineteen eighty-three, because the situation is not that favourable since then, I felt that I'm out of the cage. Although I've been here for a long time, I've got my house, got my family here, I've got comfortable living, although not er luxurious but er normal standard, better standard than I could have in India. Er but because I was born in the country, lazy I was. I look at erm the countryside probably because of that. Er the industrial life I never experienced before. It's more busy, no relaxation. Over there we do work over there, we do work here but er, we always work in a relaxing way over there but here always tension.... And that's the difference between the industrialist er situation and the country situation. It's a lot of difference.

[speaker001:] Right, perhaps I could start by asking you how you, how you became involved in the Co-op movement, locally? [Ruth:] Locally,no yo yo your not wanting side of it? [M. Glasson:] Well, yes as well [Ruth:] Yes, well cos you see, I mean, you see you begin life as erm your, your shop was the corner shop erm you know the shop was the Co-op and of course erm we always went each week, my brother and I, er to the Co-op for the groceries you see, so it was all Co-op. And then erm mother of course, I can always remember was in the Guild and erm she would, the Guild in those days I'm always telling the er people today, were very, very active women, very active erm and you'd got them as councillors, magistrates erm come forward to all these positions. Councillors erm went on to be mayor and erm we even had one as went on to be erm MP you see. Erm, er so of course there was always people coming to the house connected with the Co-op educational side, you know and erm I used to sort of you kn understand it all, mother was the treasurer and sometimes the secretary would come down to see her. And then of course so both sides we new about. We knew about the social side and we knew about the, the shop was our shop. The shop was our shop definitely and then we got a chappie who went on to be a councillor. He was a club man and the Co-op had got a club. And the thing that I did say to June once was erm, you know, when I began to courting and seeing all the girls in the pretty little dresses and things, Marks and Spencer's had just got clubs going and that, you know. I wanted to go into their clubs because erm I used to the, the Co-op, the dresses were a bit frumpy and er whether it was just er me, or [LAUGHTER] I don't know. [] But er, you know, we had simply got to have our things from the Co-op. It was er, you know, everything you wanted was from the Co-op, you see. Er so I, it was really instilled in me from a very early age. But er, I never, never sort of thought about the Guild, going to the Guild erm at all really, because erm mother, I say, was in the Guild till she died in nineteen forty-three. But from then onwards, they were always asking me to join, but by then I had already opened a young wives' belonging to the church. The vicar had asked me in the war to do this and erm I was secretary of that and I used to say er, you know you could only do so much because we wasn't like housewives today. Our housework was hard and long and laborious and erm we'd got two children to look after and then I'd got my brother who didn't leave home until he was thirty and er, you hadn't got the time, you know, to do too many things, so er my interest was the young wives' and it was really a as regards the erm the Guild itself, I was thrown in at the deep end when this lady who was with my mother, mother was treasurer, she was secretary, erm she used to come down for me and, I know you shouldn't canvass but she used to canvass and say [LAUGHTER] erm you know the voting, you know, will you, will you come and vote? I'd say oh yes, you know but, still couldn't get me to go in the Guild and er, it was so strange that the, I can't remember, I think I've been in the Guild about twenty-five years so you'll have to do your own little sum. But, erm all that time I was running the young wives' and we used to hold a stall in the garden, at the garden party at the church, and w when you took your takings in, you know th the treasurer would say you know, who are you, you know and I used to say young wives' and then one day I said well, you know we're no longer young wives, you know we were getting [LAUGHTER] old [] and I decided there and then I'd had enough of young wives' , you know and er, er because I, I said, I, I was secretary and I'll close it down it, it erm the young wives' closed down and er... er... it, it had actually closed down and this lady was marvellous this secretary of the Guild, who would kno known mother and she was a councillor, she come dashing down, you know you, you,th the young wives' has closed and you know you've got excuse. I said righto, I'll come. So I came on the Monday night to the Guild and it, it wasn't long after, only a matter of weeks, before this lady erm she er came back home from Canada seeing to some other woman and er she just sat down and died. So her husband brought the case in the Guild room on the Tuesday night and erm I was sort of throw'd in at the deep end because they were mostly older women and they all said, oh well you're secretary erm yo I said yes, but I don't know the Co-op dual structure. They said well it doesn't matter, you know, you'll pick that up as you go along, so I was really thrown into the secretaryship you know. [M. Glasson:] How, how old would you've been then? Er well I'm sixty-five you see, so I mean I would be in my forties wouldn't I you see. But I say, the, I'd heard such a lot of the Guild and the Guild's influence was in Walsall Wood I think primarily, as I'm always telling the women today, because they were so interested in the village and you got, they were local councillors, magistrates people you went to for advice. But the Guild's now you see erm don't seem to be... they're not, not at all as active, its, its quite honest. Erm, but I mean, I've been true Co-op through and through erm... Why, why is [Ruth:] You'd better ask me some questions I think. [M. Glasson:] Yes I will right, that's right. Erm why, why do you think your mother was so keen on the Co-op? What was it that er attracted her to it? [Ruth:] Er, I think really it must've been thrift. She was a very thrifty woman because in spite of eleven children we never wanted for anything and you went through a depression like, you know. The divi was very important which is why I, as a Guild's woman erm through I suppose the memories of mother, was so adamant in against the dividend stamps because to us, that woman who I'd just been talking about, Councillor Mrs always, I'm sure... no one would mind me saying it, but she always used to tell us that it was her thrift and she saved and they brought their house through this, the Co-op you see. And in those days erm I, the Co-op had got a building society as well you see, so it all tied up and I think mother, you know, I, I think it was a very good shop, I mean it was er so. My memories of it, I've got, I've always got wonderful memories of the Co-op, you see and that Co-op has been there m on that corner which, when it closed a few years ago I went down to see the present executive officer, he was then assistant, and we campaigned against the closing of Walsall Wood shop but erm course it was of no avail. I mean I was showing the figures and proved that er it wasn't... paying its way but to me it had always been our shop, you know, from when I was child and wonderful memories you know. I can see, I've only got to close my eyes and I can see it all as it was. All, all men of course, there was no women in my youth, there was no women. Erm we did get a woman later on I think in this little cash desk where the money used to go... in the machine you know and er, but you'd go in and you would have, it used to intrigue me that er you'd go in and the, the dairy goods was all one side and you, you would, you would, my brother and I would have our lists and it was, we were petrified that we case we made a mistake you know. And er, then he would carry all your goods in, in, I used to think it was wonderful how he managed to pick them all up in his arms and he'd walk round to the next counter where your other, you had your other dry goods you see, your tea and sugar and your fruit and er then it would all be totted up together. And as I say, in during the war years our rations, we were all treated so fairly at the Co-op I believe you know, we were really treated fairly. Er I can't really find, think of anything else to say only that it was thrift because mother was thrifty. We were taught to be thrifty. [M. Glasson:] Yes. What sort of things did they sell in the shop. What, what range of goods? [Ruth:] All, all everything. In Walsall Wood erm as I say, we used to have er two big bags full on a Fri Friday and then in the week we could go up but you've got your bread but, you know,yo the men would be, I can just picture them with their little, all this pretty coloured paper would all be in little piles and when there were no customers, they would be wrapping the rice, the raisins, the currants, all in these pretty papers you see and they knew, I mean you'd ask them for currants and they never sort of knew, I didn't quite understand how they could pick by, it'd be by the paper you see. They picked the mauve one which is probably currants and the other one was raisin. You sold er they, they'd got these sort of erm the old- fashioned, you'd see them in the corn merchants where there would be fowl er feed. Course I can remember it had a licence, a spirit licence before the war. This is the second war of course, I'm not quite that old. [M. Glasson:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruth:] And I know he was very good to us in the war cos my father was, got a terminal illness and er he used to see that I had a bottle of whisky for dad you know, er the manager did. Er and of course I seen the present managers are, are th the one you know only just lives down the road here he's recently retired. Erm they sold everything. I mean er and as I say you had everything erm when... er I wanted coal I mean you had coal erm because after my husband ceased at the pit, er that ceased because, cos miners always had coal as part of their er it was part of their wages you see. But er afterwards you had coal, we had the milk, the bread er delivered erm I mean really e literally everything. I mean we hardly went into another shop and yet, you see, we have a young chappie like yourself who comes to the Guild once every year and shows us slides of old Walsall, Walsall Wood, Aldridge, the local area, and he said I'm not very good Ruth at talking but he he'd got the slides you know, and it, it used to end up with me doing the commentary on Walsall Wood, because you stand on the of Walsall Wood, which is there now, and your Co-op was right on the corner which is why I call it the corner store and you see people congregated there, people met there and when I'd been accused of the, we'd been at the college or at other conferences and why can't we get Guild members today, well that was the breeding ground your shop, you see. You would see a likely customer er likely one come in, you'd say why don't you come here, we only meet upstairs. We met upstairs, in a room upstairs you see and this is where you got all your contacts and of course, the men all knew you. I remember as a young woman before I, even when I was courting, a young boys was there writing little notes behind the counter trying to make dates with me you know erm... er it was, oh it was more than a shop. It was... and yet, I'm losing my thread with, what I was going to say was, it must've been so important because... an in that you could get anything you liked. You got your Co-op on the corner. But you could go down there, you could get clothes, the fitted made-to-measure... suits. You could get erm the fishmonger's, three other er butchers. The Co-op butcher was, had got his own shop lower down... You could get everything in that one street and now in this modern age, we've got nothing, we've got to get on a bus and get into Walsall and so this is where it, we get infuriated because you know, in this progress we've lost out haven't we? And erm, this is why I say to the Co-op now er they know my feelings because my husband had only got erm he had er trans works transport which when he retired erm he, he, said well what are we going to do? We're going over to Michael three months of the year and there was air fare to find and there was holiday money, cos we used to go away with Michael and er so we didn't have a car of our own. We got a free bus pass and we, we used our money to, which I'm glad we did with my husband only having a few years. Er I'm glad he did have, what he had was full you know. But I mean, now you see erm I, I've got to er go to since they closed Central, and I haven't got a car erm so I'm not going to carry thing, I can't I'm with, with arthritis in my back I can't, I can't carry really only a very small bag, so this was [M. Glasson:] You you feel these changes are definitely for the worse? [Ruth:] Definitely. Definitely. I don't know where this Doctor had this idea from but I don't know how many years ago, but I remember I had my Co-op news every week and, and he said that he could see us going a full circle and I'm just wondering when he's gon if I'll be alive when it comes round again because I, I don't think that these big mass stores erm as I say they're all right you see, people with plenty of money with a car they could fill the freezer up. But you don't get that... choice you don't er and to me I, I hate going because the, you, you got everyone seems to be, it's, it's as bad as a road really with the trolleys erm and I badly miss this over-the-counter service but er [M. Glasson:] It's a very personal service then? [Ruth:] A very personal service and er... I just, well I, I don't know unless you ask me questions what else I can say really. [M. Glasson:] Is it, did they have a large staff? How many people would have been working in, in the old store? [Ruth:] In the old store? Ooh there would, would be some staff really. I, I, I couldn't really give a figure I mean Mr he, he would've soon told you, the manager down below. Erm... he erm I should say at a rough guess there would be at least eight. I should've of thought there'd be eight, eight. And you see, the, the, the boy would be there with his erm bike with that... funny big er cage on it [M. Glasson:] The basket [Ruth:] the basket. It was like er cage as the basket fitted in and he would go round. I mean Tommy who, who he retired just as a magistrate erm and a manager erm he is in this last focus we've had you know the centenary, er Tommy and I. I mean, I can remember him on this, er on this bike and then he rose to be a manager and er as he was, I say he was the manager fo er magistrate up until he retired last year. Er, there was such a big staff and as I say, there was no erm the women didn't come into it till the war. Not in the grocery, I suppose there would be, I mean erm as I say I was never thrilled with the clothing department and when I did get involved with the deals, er I'm afraid I was a political animal and I would've have been more interested in the political side. But I was thrown into this... Guild secretary business and er you can't do both, not when you're trying to erm a family and then by then my son was away and erm I went got a job and the Co-op gave me a job. The said well, you know, if you want a job we'll find you something and erm. I worked in quite a few departments in the Co-op erm and I was secretary to the education er in those days, whereas Miss member relations er in the, when I was there we were just education department with an educational secretary and erm then, he, we did all the staff training as well. [M. Glasson:] This was a paid job was it? [Ruth:] Oh this was a paid employment, yes. So then I began to be really pretty busy with running the office and then keeping my home, but I'd got a husband who was very, very, handy and helped me out in the home you know. [M. Glasson:] This was, this was after the war was it, after [Ruth:] Oh gosh yes. I've only gone since er, erm you know... I say Michael'd be seventeen you know, it must be like twenty years... er you know. I've been up here tw twenty-three years... and I didn't go out till I came here so I should say I was about twenty-two years ago I started back to work. But you see, I just went to the education officer and I say, he, he ran it, he, it, it was, it was his responsibility the Guild's were and I went to him about a Guild matter and I said oh, erm... how I mentioned that I was working and he said well where are you working? I said well I thought I'd, er the doctor advised me to actually. He said that brain of yours wants working. I said so I've been to a local firm and he said well if you'd wanted a job we could've found you one, so I went to the Co-op and I went in the credit, working in the Co-op credit... and er went from there to. It was from the credit that the, I went the education secretary... his, his secretary was retiring and er he came for me because he knew I knew Guild and Co-operative work you know. [M. Glasson:] And what sort of things did the education department as it was then, what sort of things were they doing in those days? [Ruth:] Oh, well I think it was different to what we're doing now. I mean I'm pleased with the way the dividend stamps are helping the hospitals, which is a, a very, very good thing but erm, I think we did a very good job. You got a very good committee, dedicated committee erm who, you see the young trainees were sent to the technical colleges and you see, erm some of them did go on if they graduated to Stanford Hall, but I mean those that went to technical college, we used to have to get the committee to sit in at the examinations. We had to pay the lads their bus fares and er the things like, when they went to college. Er, we were, as I say, responsible more or less for staff erm and er so we were pretty busy really. Erm I, I think it was er you know a good thing that in a way that it was parted and made er staff, you know, training officer and business you know, sort of thing. But we certainly did some good work in the education because I think that we erm we used to, you know, of course we'd, we'd got used to use our auxiliaries naturally and erm we used to have a big conc a big er concert once a year in the town hall and er we would involve all the auxiliaries you know erm and of course we used to always erm... fell a bit flat, the International Day which is July, the first Ju Saturday in July is International Day, Co-operative International, and we have always, the Guilds have worked very closely with the International Day. And we used to go to town, we used to have really good, good er good day erm... we used to have a procession and erm... local, course local dignitaries used to come er, I I've got a, one or two pictures in my scrapbook where erm it, I was asking, telling Jean she would have to look up er when we did begin trendsetters. But, I know we, we, my two women won the competition. One went as Miss Rochdale in these old and the other was Miss Trendsetter. She was a very little dolly bird you know and she looked a real Miss Trendsetter you know, in the mini dress you know.... [M. Glasson:] Right. You were saying you, you remember the trips [Ruth:] Oh the trips was marvellous. I mean, I remember mother saying that, you see mother had never seen the sea till she joined the Guild and they decided to save for an outing, and then the next thing I can remember was that we used to have these stamps every week and I think it come to two and ninepence erm and for that we went to Rhyl. And this was not only Walsall Co-op, it was the Co-ops as far as I can remember, because er... er you know I wouldn't take that for gospel could I'm not... not sure because I was only child. But we used to l I think I can remember going three times and we went on the train and we would have a big label with branch number seven, we were Walsall Wood and we were always told that, you know, you look on the sea front if you get lost, cos you've got your name and who you belong to on card was all given out. And, you, you make for that and on i on the sand there'd be number seven you see, so you could got to dive for there if you were lost. And we were given this lovely bag you know, with your buns in and your lunch and I think at these kind of things erm were very, very acceptable and you see it, it was, it was involving people er with the store, not just your groceries. You see erm... even the erm and of course, your clubman I think coming round, he got to know er the people he's we as well you know, they could save up for things. [M. Glasson:] I, I haven't heard of the clubman. Tell me a bit about him. [Ruth:] Oh. Well you see, the, we, we always had club collectors. There was twenty week club you see and I don't know, I mean up until recently I was in the credit when we used to have credit. Erm the men used to co the women used to come and pay their money and er I used to do the slips. Erm they used to call round you see. It would be shilling in the pound I think it was. But you see, you, you see, you could, you could have your goods then you'll be paying on the slip and he would give you a slip you see. And I mean, again, he was a contact with you like your milkman. Yo yo you knew your clubman was coming, you've stayed in and that is how our local clubman who is now dead, Mr became a councillor because naturally, people voted for him against the Conservative because he was someone they knew, someone like as came you know. And then of course you've got your, I think people made more use of the convalescent club, which we have got. Erm we've got a convalescent club for members and I think people made more use of that and then there was a time when I remember er you see, even the death, there was a death grant.... The death grant has been finished quite a long time ago, but there was the death grant erm because I can remember you know this, people telling me about this. Er I don't, I can't even remember whether I had anything for mother in forty-three and forty-for, but I do know there was a death for quite a long time. And these are all things that made the Co-op so... personal didn't they really. More than just that shop where you go in... you can go all round and wander round and you don't see anybody only filling the shelves up and half the time they don't even, can't even advise you where to go can they you know. Where, where can I find this you know, they don't even know. [M. Glasson:] I haven't asked you anything about the Guilds yet and this is obviously [Ruth:] [LAUGHTER] [M. Glasson:] of your involvement. Erm you, you got involved through, through the Guilds because of, of your mother's [Ruth:] As a mother. [M. Glasson:] Perhaps you could describe how, how the Guilds actually work an and how they sort of, how the committee were appointed and what the sort of, how the or originally the ordinary meeting was organised. [Ruth:] Well the, the er... the Guilds... I can speak now because I've been up to a higher level, I've been on the section and Birmingham is a very big area. And I can tell you that erm Birmingham City Council told me this erm that... if ever they need anyone to chair a meeting... they would look to the Guild, committees. Even if they're sort of not erm involved. But they know these people because you co-opted on, so I was on standing conference of womens' organisations. Working womens' organisations you get co-opted on and the, we were known for the way, the business-like way we run... our meeting you know. Erm for instance, you go to one meeting and erm you would just sort of, mind you I think probably you may not agree, young people perhaps think this is the best way. I've been to Stanford Hall where they have you in a circle but at least, I think,wh however you sit, you must have a president in front of you in a chair and someone to keep a little bit of order. Whereas er I've been to a meeting where, you know well, will you come and speak? Well there was no one, no table or nowhere to put your notes, nowhere, one to sort of say well this is Mrs she's come from so and so. Well we wouldn't tolerate this in the Guild. This has been, you know we've always, and we always go for the rule by the vote, one vote per member and er, we stick to our rules. We have our little rule book and we let a woman come into the Guild for a few weeks and then she's told the rules. Er one of the rules is you must belong to the Co-op you, you know and er you must have a Pound share in the Co-op you see. And you must also have, have that, naturally, before you can be on the committee. And you have an A G M... once a year and every, everything is goes by the vote, you know if president's, there's no time limit. Er well each guild makes their own mind up whether they have a new pre if, if they want the same president year after year or secretary. At the moment I can never get voted out of it you know. [LAUGHTER] Er but we're very, very business-like, very, very, business-like. Erm we, we have of course, we've got a, we have a congress each year, which erm we, each Guild is allowed to send one delegate and so really, we always stress at the top level that erm you know, it's you that run the Guild you can't blame head office, the Nat National Executive, because you're the ones who send the people to the top, aren't you? And it's just as I've said in local government, er we only get what you've put in. It's your fault. You've had the vote and who you've put in. But erm we're very, very business-like. But we've found out er that we have er we still keep our programme erm I can show you my programme book. Er we still er we have to submit to Miss officer. It is one of the rules that er we get a grant from the society. We get our, we're very lucky because as I travel ov in the country, there's lot's of Co-ops as the Guilds don't get the grant or they don't get room rent. But we in Walsall er I say Walsall is West Midlands er been very, very lucky. I'm always stressing this to my people because we do get a room rent, a gra and we get a grant every year according to how many members you've got. And to qualify for that grant, you have got to submit two er your programme for the year and you've gotta give the secretaries, you've got to give a report and you've got to give your balance sheet and er, Jean is always, I must say, very pleased with mine because erm you know, we do give quite a lot to charity. We make ourselves known in the village w erm you see we've got the peace movement at the moment and last year er we always have put a wreath. We always march in the parade on Armistice Sunday and this year erm I picked my poppy wreath up from the vic from vicarage and I said to the Vicar, you don't mind if I wind some white poppies in this one do you, because it was the Earl Hague poppy you know. And he said not at all, not at all and I said well I do want the people to know that, you know we, although we... tribute to of the lost lives in the two World Wars, we are now striving for peace and so I wound a few white poppies. And the vicar did pick this up in his sermon and he did mention the Co-op Womens' Guild and so we were very proud that we'd been mentioned you see, you know. Erm as I say we are known in the village and this is, er this is what it's all about. It's getting known isn't it, really. [M. Glasson:] If I could just ask you what sort of activities the Guild, the Guilds are actually involved in today? [Ruth:] Er well er I think, I don't think they are so politically activated and this is where you haven't got your forthcoming erm members on committees. You're not, you've not got your councillors coming forward and er you know that, which, which I would like because the, the only way you'll get your, get anything is by sort of working for it and erm we are very proud you know, I don't know whether you've, you must've seen the book you know erm the, the was brought out the centenary, the eighty-three and er, I mean er, er... there's an awful lot of information there. Erm my thread's gone for a minute. This is what happens. [M. Glasson:] about caring and sharing [Ruth:] The caring and sharing, yes erm [M. Glasson:] And actually it does show how they were politically quite active [Ruth:] Er you see there was, really activists and you see you've not got the women coming forward. They seem as what women we are getting today er just want social er and yet my own particular guild, I'm just wondering if it's the secretaries that we're, we're jus it's the good secretary we need of course really because, er this sounds really awful of me, it sounds a bit big-headed doesn't it you know we would, we would say. Erm but, I mean er you know, I tried to instil we get a good programme and we, we, we get really interesting, no we di we wouldn't like all socials. We like, we have erm a sort of er we have a current affairs and that night we pick up, we all have a say on something that's be topical on the television that particular week. Years ago we used to have the W E A Lecturers and erm that, they always did current affairs and er of course we have the different councillors. I always involve the local councillors because at the moment we have a running battle with them over the er repairs, because most of us live in council property in my particular Guild, and so we get involved and s you know what you're going to do about these you know. Erm but erm we get involved. Of course we get co-opted onto other committees, so we are involved in with others you know. Erm [M. Glasson:] You mentioned, you mentioned the erm... movement towards peace that's, that's quite interesting. I didn't, I wasn't aware that that was still a part of, of the Guild work today. [Ruth:] Oh well the Guild, yes I mean first and foremost we, you know, we are pledged to help the Guild. Er help, the Guild is pledged to the peace movement. I, we're not, I don't know whether you've got, we could say we were activists, we don't, I don't even know who goes on a march or anything, but we do do our best for anything we support and get signatures for anything they ask us to. We do support them and as I say we buy our poppies, we wear our poppies and like this year we put them on the wreath as well you know er we're very keen. Of course, over the years we've campaigned, as I was telling someone only yesterday in another club that I go to at the church, that I said you know we, the Co-op Womens' Guild, were helping to put water into Africa before any of this Band-aid and Live-aid was thought about. Er we had er buy a bucket of water campaign and we did erm er you know I, we went in local shops selling little stickers and it all went to and the wells have been dug and I believe Afghanistan has got wells that have been dug with, through the er Womens' Guild. Er we, we do worldwide, we do sort of take an interest, but that again is linked up with your Co-operative International erm isn't really, you see. But the, you see if you look in the, I have information off the Birmingham secretary, er Secretary's secretary, she was involved, she even was imprisoned in Switzerland erm when the peace movement was on between the two wars, and that was when they were, I believe it was a German woman that er that was on, you know in the committee, but I'll have to refer to the Caring and Sharing book. Erm er they formed this committee and erm it was in Switzerland er where they were at the time. I mean they fought valiantly for peace but I, I think that erm... the maternity bill I think is what everybody admits that we shall always go down as being noted for. Erm I've heard it said lots of times that whatever else er you know gets forgotten, we, we will remembered for the maternity bill, it was an awful lot of work. Because we can work. We can, we can badger our MPs and erm until they do and, and because they are oblivious to a lot of things that are going on in their own, you know till we put it in front of them. So erm and the other thing was the erm... the maternity bill er what is the other one that so interests me that, I've got my two favourites, erm and that is the cervical, the cancer smear test. Now that, we never get any credit for it and yet we did an awful lot of work. I can remember, you see I don't think today's Guild women would go around with me. We knocked on doors and got signatures and erm. I have got of piles of papers between er still. What am I gonna do when I move next week I don't know. Because er the, when, between us and Westminster and MPs to get this cervical cancer smear test going you know and one of the women that was very prominent in Walsall was, she died with it herself, but she was an older woman you know, just too late to save her. But I think that, you know, we've got so involved we've done a lot of work in our time, but now we don't seem to be erm... There is a younger element coming in they tell me. I've seen quite a few er in the so well you see we belong wi the Guild is fit into three tiers. You've got your er local tier, I'm a local Guild attached to West Midlands' society. But then you see we've got a section which is Birmingham and then we've got a Head Office. So you see we, we've got a three-tier movement you know, throughout the, throughout the country. Er and in the South Midlands' section, I think it is erm towards Coventry and Nuneaton, we have got erm I can even remember the name of the Guild it's we've got a lot of younger women in there and these are younger women that, it's very, I'm very pleased to see them and when you see them go to the rostrum you can, you know they really are, they seem as if they're a revival of the old camp because we, we've got to campaign you see and but you, you try, I mean I'm getting beyond it really myself and yet you see, you try and whip up erm an aging movement it you, you want younger women you see. You want you say your mid- thirties erm er to sort of campaign with but I think we really, this is what we used to be, a campaigning movement and this is what we are no longer. Now you see, they, they want a social, they want a night out er but they're very, very loyal to the Co-op, er particularly my o I can only speak for my own Guild. They, they're tremendously loyal and as I say, when they closed Walsall Wood Co-op we went to Aldridge the next little visit. Then they closed that. And now some of them go up Brownhills, you know they're very loyal. And erm they're loyal to the society because it, they know really it's partly through them supporting the Guilds that we are able erm I don't know whether I would get the membership there if you've got, you see we pay... a subscription to, see it costs five Pound a year at the moment to be, to be a member of the Womens' Guild, which we, we send dues as I say to these three sections you see. And I don't think if you've got it out of the Guilds and say now we've got to have so much for the rent this [LAUGHTER] week [] I don't think I would have a Guild very long, because they can go round the corner. There's so many clubs now isn't there? They can go round the corner to the, er I go to a church club er and I pay twenty-five pence and that includes my raffle and a cup of tea you see. And, and you see you're competing with things like this aren't you? Now Jean was pleased because I do sequence dancing which I learnt with my husband, and so now this coming September when we start back again, once a month I'm going to teach some sequence dancing in the hope that some young ones would, will hear of it and, and join because then once you can sort of get them involved with one thing you may sort of get good numbers. But I think this is the kind of thing that we really need. We, we need the younger blood because you, you talk and say well how are you and oh my leg's bad, my leg's been dreadful this week and you can't very well ask these people to go campaigning on the streets, can you? And comes electioneer election time as regards political er then you see the, the la the Labour Party would like you to help them because we are Co-operative Labour. I have stood twice as co-operative Labour candidate and didn't win either time, er much to my husband's disgust, because I, but you see at the time er Labour was very, very low but erm the local people, you can tell by your boxes, was very loyal to me. But you get the erm the little estates that've grew round Walsall Wood erm you see they were all Conservative and it was, but it was just a straight fight between but, he said it was a good fight and er we had, we had two. [M. Glasson:] Were, what were the erm the main issues in, in your mother's day. I mean were, were there any sort of political issues she felt very strongly about? [Ruth:] Ooh great a, a lot of politic this is what I say they were, when I think of them I can remember them, even as, as a young girl and you know remember them they were all very, very er they were only just the average working woman er I don't think, we had got, there again we'd got an extremely good, they'd got an extremely good secretary, a well-educated woman erm and er the whole family was involved and it was one of their family was went on to be an M P. But erm perhaps because I had a good, I don't know. But erm the women were so involved, they were on all these committees, they were, you know, harassing committees and they er really working they were. Er of course as I say, they er this was the ma the maternity bill I think was, would, would've been my mother's day more than mine you see because I mean then yo the woman didn't get the maternity allowance and [M. Glasson:] Was, was there anything your, your mother felt particularly strongly about do you remember or [Ruth:] Well I think it was the maternity because I mean she had had eleven pregnancies so I think she she was very, very erm able to talk about it and I, I don't, I know Dad had got a good job in the, well if you can call any pit job a good job, but say that the money was decent, but I know that she always had to have two doctors and it was, it was in those days we were, it was good we were in a doctor's club because, you know, you hadn't got any er the maternity and, and the, and the ante- natal and pre-natal and goodness knows what that we've got today. So I think, if I've gotta say, mum's I should say was maternity which you, they were very, very political animals. The Walsall Wood Guild was in particular and when you look round, even the Walsall ones were like because you've got erm er you've got board members. The first president of Walsall Society was, was a woman Guild member. She was from Russia, you see. So I mean you got, they were very, very politically- minded. [M. Glasson:] Did your, did your mother talk at all about the er the nineteen twenty-six Great Strike? [Ruth:] Oh yes, of course, yes, of course. [M. Glasson:] That must've hit Walsall Wood as a mining village. [Ruth:] Yes, yes, it, it hit, it hit us dreadfully yes, yes and you, you would've, this er chappie who showed us slides, he showed us erm er you know the soup kitchens that we did erm they did and I think the Guilds' women were involved with that you know. Er I, you see they used to work, the Guilds work more... with the political party, they worked, I'd, I can't see my Guild women going to the Labour Party erm you see. Er they supported me and canvassed for me when I was putting up, but I can't see them going, whereas I can remember the erm the when I was a child going to the, we used to have a fete and it was a politically, I can't remember exactly what it would be called, but I know mother and the Guild were always there making the tea and got a stall and they were always in the forefront and they'd always got their rosettes on. Erm cos the Guild has sort of, this is a new thing, we've adapted the International flag and we wear the er scarves, which, which the asked us to wear, we, at the church service you see, but you, mainly the Guild women in those days would be wearing the red rosettes of the Labour Party you see. Er I remember it so vividly because it, at our house it was quite er an [LAUGHTER] event because [] mother and father were so Labour and my brother, who erm he, I don't know why, he's not alive today and I can't so I, and I've no idea, I don't think I ever asked him because I'd be too young, but I do know that the friction was in the house because he was working for the Conservative and she was the first woman that we ever elected er she, this, this lady did. She was a local farmer's wife and she went on to be our first [LAUGHTER] member of Parliament [] and me brother was helping her and mum and dad, you see, was working for the, we, we got the house as a committee room and all, all the and I can remember going with mother, we had, we had a Co-op paper or it was Co-op orientated I'm sure news and I can remembering canvassing Walsall Wood with me mother, well I can't see my Guild members doing that. We canvassed all round the village you know, the Guild members did and to get people to take this paper. You know they were really, but you see, in the, in, in the to modern womens' favour you see, these women hadn't got anything like we have today. They haven't got the telly which is dominating the house, have they and these other things. Er, you see wh when I'm tr when I'm speaking in favour of today's women this is what I look at. You know mother'd used to come back so thrilled with all these slides they'd had and they'd had the local doctor as well. We had a course of first-aid so that we were pr prepared er for first- aid in the home you know, which is a good thing erm in our Guild. I always seem to, I think we, we were always at Stanford Hall that we must, it was a must that we have a good programme because if somebody comes and there's nothing doing, they think well... you know yo I, I, you see I suppose I've got that orientated into Guild work but a friend of mine enticed me to go to er a club and erm it's just simply for any age group, any sex male or female, but you must bereaved you know and erm she is a widow and I was widow, so I went but you see we, we sat round and you just, there was nothing organised and to me who had always been organised, I just felt so like a lost soul you know and er then one chappie put some records on and you cou and you couldn't dance to them and I said oh, you know to me I thought wh you know but I don't want to do it, I've got enough [LAUGHTER] to do [] but, I, I was straight away, I was looking for the organisation behind it you know. [M. Glasson:] Yes. You mentioned Stanford Hall then and you've been on courses at Stanford [Ruth:] Oh yes yes. [M. Glasson:] Oh right. So what, what sort of courses would those have been? [Ruth:] Oh these courses mainly I've been on is being opening the Guild you know, how to open a Guild, how to open you know, a Guild erm and er I've been on consumer courses erm such as like that paper they just sent this week on what's on, I mean that is nothing new they've sent out in today's Co-op news you know that our own label and all the nutr because the nutriment, I can remember er being at Stanford Hall on, on a consumer course for a week and you see I was on the er when I was know, know longer an employee, I was on member relations you see, representing the Guild and you'd go through there sometimes and that would probably be a consumer task. I don't rea I can't remember who sent me, when on a consumer course. And I can remember having big long sheets and they would take us into Nottingham and just dump you at a shop and say now you know, go in and fill that in. And it would be you know, which tin is the best value, which has got the most in and all this. So it's nothing new really, those, those labels have always had the contents and things in you know. Erm [M. Glasson:] I see And, and who would, who would pay for theses courses? Would it be the local society? [Ruth:] The, the member relations as was would, would pay, would pay for you. It never came out of er ha our pockets at all. You see they send you er and of course we always in, asked the Guild women. I've got a Congress fund which, I mean today it's getting so dear to go to Congress erm you know, the hotels are so dear. It's a three-day Congress er and what we do in our Guild, we have, we had a house party on a Tuesday night and she's told me she made twenty-six Pounds and erm we, we send our, our delegate Congress with that money you see, er because you see, er women would not if you couldn't say you could sponsor them. Erm... that's where the money comes from because er [M. Glasson:] So actually you think the, the, the local society had, had quite er an important role to play then really in, in sort of promoting education. [Ruth:] Oh definitely, definitely. I've got... I, I as I say, I feel very grateful to the society for giving me the chance. I had, until I took the role of the Guild secretary, I, I as I say, I think I would have gone on to being politically, erm but I felt I couldn't do both. Er but I went, I've been, I've represented the society at the big conference of the Co-op union, which is you know each society sends delegates you know and erm er I've,... I've always liked this kind of thing. I've always enjoyed it and sometimes I wonder if er probably, as I think I've think I said before, erm this goes back to what kind of a secretary you've got, you see. Erm my Guild always say they're lucky in having me because I've come back and give them all the information and they seem to be so well-educated themselves now you know. Erm [M. Glasson:] Did, did the erm the, the central society themselves, did they, did they run sort of adu adult education type courses there in [Ruth:] Oh yes. We've be run courses you know and this they used to, they run directors' courses, directors' training courses and things like that you know and public speaking you know. We erm of course, this is besides the ordinary classes that they take erm now I believe there's doing something for the erm, what was the one I looked at on the board the other day for tracing your ancestors back, you know. Erm yes. [M. Glasson:] I wa I was talking to erm Mr the other day and he was saying that when he started at the Co-op it was a, a very, very good place to work. [Ruth:] Yes. [M. Glasson:] Erm was, was that still true when, when you, when you worked there? Do you think it was a, a good employer or? [Ruth:] Er yes I think so. Er but I, I think really I was probably er you know I was er when I look back, erm I was not in the, in the, er what, what words do I want. I wasn't in the actual throe er, er I wa I've always been more or less a loner. Er I was in the credit and I was with a large group of people there and they seemed very happy and I think we were fair, we'd got good conditions. We had erm very good canteen facilities erm I think er everything was quite good. But then I, I went on to be secretary and more or less you're loner again in another office. And then from there I went to the grocery manager, I was his secretary. And I ended up in the erm my ended my career as the in, I was in charge of the stone, stone masonry office working for the funeral manager. So I always say well I went backwards, I went to the dead end [LAUGHTER] you know [] I think I ended up very low in the Co-op really you know er but erm [M. Glasson:] Did they, did they do things like erm staff discount and things like that? [Ruth:] Oh staff discount was very good yes, they did the staff discount. And er, you know of course, you've got employees on your committee. They've got a very good welfare committee er employees' committee you know. Erm I don't know erm... how it is like, as I say because I, I've been left now... ten years... eleven, eleven in May er so erm I, I really, I don't know what, how things are with the er with the employees really you know, but erm I used to enjoys my meetings once a month erm and I think everybody seemed fair, we got and of course, according to the Co- magazine that we have, that Focus, they always send me one of those still and er I mean, you've got er, we used to have a good football team and I think they've still got a sports team haven't they? And er they did a lot for that fun run and er made money on there erm I think they've kept the, the image up really. I don't know, I think. [M. Glasson:] Right. Going, going back to the early days you mentioned that erm the dividend, the divi was quite important. [Ruth:] Yes. [M. Glasson:] Your mother used to take her, her dividend out did she? I know there, there was quite a lot of encouragement to actually leave your dividend in and build up interest on it. [Ruth:] Er yes I, I er I think I, I couldn't really speak definitely on this but er you I have said that we, you know that this secretary encouraged them because you know, to keep it in and even the one woman said this was how she got a deposit for her house and through, as I say, you'd got a Co-op building society as well. But I think er with a big family like mother had got, she used to like her divi day erm for erm you know, well say save up, well it used to come round about May and you'd think well just, you know just in time for the summer shoes or something you know. And er it used to be quite event when you saw all the queue and, and er of course with Walsall Wood you've got the room over the shop where the Guild room was and a rest room I think for the staff. There was another little attic up above. And, you know, the queue'd be all down the stairs and all down the road and to be truthful as a, as, as erm I, in my early married days of course erm I, my money accumulated er because of sort I didn't really need it. But er, in my later as I was rearing my two children erm I, I think I used to spend mine. I can show you now erm what I bought with my divi and we [LAUGHTER] had a speaker [] at the Guild er on stainless steel and er he,wh you know when they asked questions you said well how do we, how do we clean it? So er... I thought well he, he was not a too good a rep because he, he couldn't answer this question. I said well, I can tell you how to clean it. I said in my teapot there is a little, and he told you to use white tide and you put a little bit of tide in it once a week. I said what I do is if I'm going, I know say, Fridays, I'm going shopping, gonna be out nearly all day, put, put it in the tide in, it comes out and I can show you my teapot, it'll be, it is clean now. And it must be, I've been up here twenty-three years, it must be getting on for thirty years old that teapot and er I couldn't have afforded that money for that stainless steel teapot, as those days, but I had it with my divi. I can remember that so vividly and it's still going today so that's saying something for British Steel erm it was local, you know the erm the one at er [M. Glasson:] Old Hall [Ruth:] Old Hall yes, yes, yes, yeah and so I think and of course erm I have talked erm I talk in the different clubs you know, as I say, and I think erm the majority of women usually like this, they look forward to the divi to buy say a major item, you know. Erm but we were encouraged of course for it to go er as your savings and er something I heard that, that may be interesting to you er and er he just said to me in this other club, but again we were talking about, I think we'd talking politics then and we're not supposed to do it was a church [LAUGHTER] club. [] But erm er and, and she said erm you know the little, we were talking about the little corner shop and how they used to keep open all hours. This is a private little shop you know and her mother kept this little shop, mother long since dead you know. And she said it was so funny, she said, you'd get the, the so the poorer people perhaps would use this shop and erm and yet she said, people I knew in the street erm that were Conservatives dealt at the Co-op, where it was I suppose the best buy and they were saving the divi you know, and we thought it was quite... funny really. I don't know how it would appeal to you but we thought it was funny. [M. Glasson:] [LAUGHTER] [Ruth:] But I think this is, I think that I know it w it was the arguments that went on when we were on about going dividend stamps was very interesting, I quite enjoyed them and you can you know, definitely what came out was that erm it was a bad thing because erm people, er maybe it's good if these stamps are going to the Co-op er going to the hospitals I'm all for it, but I'm afraid mine I keep them to for myself and erm er I get so few these days now my Co-op's gone but erm you know usually I go and get a bag of er, box of teabags with mine, you know and er so I use my stamps now erm. [M. Glasson:] You, you feel that was definitely a, a wrong move to [Ruth:] Oh definitely, definitely I think they did. But of course we were very strongly against it really but er, because th you know we'd been inundated with all these marvellous ideas of this progress and it's all for the best and everything, but it doesn't seemed to have work does it really? Erm I must say that on the clothing scene, because I did criticize it in my earlier statements, er that when I was so young I thought it was so frumpy and I was so pleased when I was married and got my own income that, you know, I could go elsewhere and choose something. But it, it did and, and I think there again a little bit of Guild influence because when er we were at meetings we would say, well what are you going to do about the er drapery you know and eventually we did get this better erm you know, drapery. [M. Glasson:] Erm you, you mentioned that the local corner shop sold virtually everything. [Ruth:] Yes. [M. Glasson:] What, what sort of things would be delivered erm? [Ruth:] Oh I should suppose just grocery I should think really. I, I can't really because we never did. We, we actually lived in th the corner shop is right on the corner if you've come up High street on the bus and your Co-op would be on that corner, your church and your Co-op's on the corner, and just turns there and I only lived just down that street, so we never had to have it delivered because we just popped up er and my brother and I, I can so remember us going with our two big bags you know and we, you know how you do when families meet you know and he'll say that's the time, because dad, we never knew dad hit us and yet you'd of thought he was, we, we were so scared it must have been his voice you know, that he erm that we was so scared that everything was all correct from the Co- op. The, the you know his tobacco had got to be ready-rubbed and we, we still remember that. But no, it was a certain type of tobacco but you'd got to bring it ready-rubbed and er you know, it's back to the Co-op you'd go and it wasn't very far. But of course it was lovely with er, er they used to trim it up Christmas time you know and it used to be so lovely. It, it was a really nice size shop Walsall Wood was, but my sister, remember is eighty-two, I asked her, I told her you were coming and I asked her if there was anything she could tell me but er she do couldn't tell me much more than myself. She used to come a long way, right from the top of to walk down to her Co-op, a long way. But again, it had always got to be from the Co-op, because it had come through mum you see, really and er sh I say she is eighty-two. But she remembers the Co-op having its first shop just, still in High street, but half way down, but then they had this prime position right on the corner, you know and it was a marvellous, a good Co-op I always thought. [M. Glasson:] They, they always took your, they as asked for your share number when you, when you bought something, was that right? Well, a, at the Co-op store. Was that right? [Ruth:] Well we used to er you see, you know when you paid you had your cheque. My, my mother's was five-two-nine-seven and mine was seven-five-one-eight-one. And you know, you always you er give, gave your number you see... and er... course some people I believe had an a I believe in later days they'd given the older numbers out again, I don't know wh you know, because some people that've joined since me have got an older number, so I don't know whether they've given the ol they were sort of long since run out, you know.

[speaker001:] I shall be talking services today and dealing with Clare from industries like Boots and who discard their waste waters into sewers for treatment. More broad topic now on the subject of water. And a subject dear to your heart I'm sure, costs. [J. Childs:] Cos I I assume you all pay your water bills. And get a good supply from Severn Trent. Erm Severn Trent is part of Severn Trent P L C, Severn Trent Water is part of Severn Trent P L C, which is group of companies established following privatization in nineteen eighty nine. Incidentally I've been asked to keep the talk fairly short, to avoid nodding off. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] But I'm sure there's no danger of that. Erm we's we've had a number of changes in the water industry over the years. And I guess most of the people in this audience today would think of water being supplied by water boards. That always used to be the case of course. But there've been a number of changes over the years, certainly prior to nineteen seventy four that would be the case, water boards supplying water, local councils treating treating the sewage, and the rivers authorities looking after the river pollution aspects. In fact before nineteen seventy four there were over thirteen hundred agencies within England and Wales which dealt with the sewage side of the business. Some did it very well, like Nottingham for instance. Always had a good sewage treatment works at Nottingham. Some did it reasonably well, some did it very poorly. It was one of the reasons why the government in nineteen seventy four established water authorities. Ten water authorities for England and Wales. Which amalgamated all these bodies, previously dealing with the water as part of their business, supply, sewage treatment and river pollution control. all those amalgamated into ten new bodies called water authorities. But were still called water boards by the press and by people in general. And then in nineteen eighty nine, the the government decided to split up the water authorities, privatize the utility part, that is treatment of of sewage and supply of water, and split up a regulatory body called the National Rivers Authority. Erm so now we are a water company, not a water board any more, a water company. Erm but we still get called water boards or water authorities. So I don't suppose they'll ever get it right. The same kind of P L C as a world wide company. We've got a lot of erm subsidiary companies. We employ ten thousand five hundred people. Nine thousand nine hundred of those in the U K. The other five hundred or so are scattered er throughout the world. Mainly in Europe and the United States. Severn Trent Water Limited provides services to eight point two million people. Worldwide we provide services to twenty million people. So we supply more people overseas that we are in the U K. We've got contracts in New York, we've got a contract in Mexico worth several hundred million pounds. A joint venture there to supply water services to Mexico City. We work in Belgium, we work in Italy, Germany, Puerto Rico, India, Malaysia, Chile and Hong Kong. Plus a few others, that I can't mention. Eight point two million customers of which I assume that you are some of those. And the three hundred thousand businesses throughout Severn Trent region. Which is centred on Birmingham and goes up as far as the Humber Estuary and down as far as the Severn Estuary. We supply four hundred and thirty five million gallons of water a day, and that's a lot of water. We've got a hundred and ninety plants. Via twenty four thousand miles of pipes. Some of which in good condition, some of which in poor condition. And we're replacing all of those, year by year. We treat five hundred and seventy five million gallons a day of sewage. Which is a fair bit of sewage to treat. At over a thousand sewage works, via thirty two thousand miles of sewers.... Now when we were privatized, there were those I'm sure who thought, It's a licence to print money. Which it would be of course if you weren't a regulated body. Erm all the privatized utilities like gas, electricity, telecoms, have all been privatized with a regulator to oversee the prices that are charged. And there's a pricing formula. The regulator for the water industry is OFWAT, Office of Water Services. And their director general, a guy named Ian resides in Birmingham, and he looks after your interests as customers. He'll he'll take he'll take his part if there's a if there's a dispute between a customer and the water company. And he also regulates the price very severely. You may not agree with that but of course the formula is is the retail price index plus a factor of K. K being positive, it means that prices are going up faster than inflation. And I I guess you've all seen that in the water bills that drop through your doors. K was set at five and a half percent in the first year. So if in if inflation went up say seven or eight percent in the first year, you're looking at prices in double figures. Twelve, thirteen percent. ninety ninety one prices went up thirteen percent on average, and in ninety one ninety two by fifteen percent. The increases have been less of late because inflation's dropped and we've reduced our K value. But why why should we all have to pay more money for water? It's because we're investing a lot of capital expenditure to put right some years of neglect I might say. We're spending over two million pounds a day on capital expenditure. To improve the water service in terms of treatment plant, service pipes, sewage treatment plants and the rest of the infrastructure. That capital programme was agreed with government before privatization. What have we achieved? Well... we are also monitored by other regulators. We have a regulator in terms of Ian and Office of Water Services. But we also have other regulators other watchdogs. We have the Drinking Water Inspectorate that monitors the quality of water that we put into your taps. And in nineteen ninety two, ninety nine point seven percent of all the samples that were taken, met all the standards. And the standards we have to meet are rigorously laid down regulations. We have to meet fifty six different standards for the quality of water. If you're partial to drinking bottled water, the report on Which you might like to read some time.... Can't read the date on it. I've probably missed the date somewhere. April nineteen ninety one. And there's also an equinox programme on Channel Four about bottled water. Fine, people drink bottled water because they don't particularly like the taste of ground water. Because of the chlorine that's that's present in that water to make it bacteriologically safe. But the quality of bottled water does vary. They don't analyze it as often as we do. And once you've opened that bottled water, then any bacteria which might be present, may multiply. So if you do use bottled water it's advisable to put it in the fridge after you've opened it. Interesting enough one of one of the controversial erm chemicals that people are concerned about with their water is nitrate. And there's a limit on the nitrate values in the supply that we give you. There's no limit on the nitrate values of bottles water. So they're working to different standards than that the water industry. So we're overseen by the watchdog, the Water Inspectorate publish an ann annual report, see how well we're doing. And we're doing as well as anyone in Europe. We also have another watchdog called the National Rivers Authority. They used to be part and parcel of the water authorities and looked after the rivers when we were one big body, as a water authority. But on privatization, they were split off to be the watchdog for what we put into the rivers. And what the quality of the water is in in the ground, in the in the rivers themselves. They look after land drainage and also er the fisheries. So they're a watchdog as well. Our samples that we ou our our effluence that we discharge to the rivers, met all the standards on ninety nine percent of samples last year. Which is the best ever we've done. Which is not the impression you get sometimes when you read the paper. Because if you read the paper we're called the dirty man of Europe. Implying that the water we supply is worse than what's in Europe, and the sewage effluence we put into rivers is not as good as the rest of Europe. We are the dirty man of Europe if you r if you read the papers. We are the only country that's been condemned in in the European courts for failing to meet the E C drinking water standards. In in terms of nitrates. But why? Why is this? I gu my guess is if I ask the audience I I may get an answer I don't like here. But if you go abroad do you drink the water out the taps? guess you d some do and some don't. But I would always ask, Is it safe to drink the water out the taps? And the reps on the holiday co coach when they take you from airport, sometimes say yes and sometimes say no. And so I resort to buying bottled water. But why is it that we're called the dirty man of Europe? Our data's available that's why. We have to publish public registers. The Rivers Authority a public register, which details the quality of all the sewage effluence that goes into rivers, and it details the quality of those rivers. Readily available, you can go along to the N R A offices in Nottingham and ask to see the register. You will not get that information if you go on the continent. The Drinking Water Inspectorate publish an annual report. All the data is there for public inspection. Readily available, available to pressure groups like Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace. And they will read those reports and if we're failing anywhere, they'll highlight that. I bought a copy in of last weeks Daily Telegraph because interestingly enough, [cough] the press seems to be latching on to this er not playing by the rules. Anyone seen this? [speaker001:] Yeah. [J. Childs:] They went to erm a number of cities in Europe, of all the countries in Europe, and tried to gather the data to compare the quality of water in their countries, to the quality in ours. Some were good, some couldn't produce any data whatsoever. And in two cases official that were supposed to give the data went missing. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] And that is the reason I think why we are called the dirty man of Europe. Because we're more open, we're more honest, the availa the information's there. Yes we can do better and yes we are getting better, but all that's gonna cost money..... How expensive is tap water? Well... it's about fifty pence a cubic metre if you have a er a metered water supply in Severn Trent, which is about point O five pence a litre. Erm bottle water is probably thirty, forty, fifty pence a litre. So in terms of price there's no comparison. But people don't but th they don't go for that they go for that because they don't like the taste of chlorine. We accept that and we're looking at ways of improving that taste of water. [141 1] And in many areas we've done that. We're moving towards more ozone treatment for water. We amount of chlorine to maintain the bacteriological purity of it. I've pulled out a few press cuttings as well whilst I was looking through some of the for this talk. The River Trent, not far away from here. Again you'd think that the Trent is er in a diabolical state. River worse than ever, it says here.. A group set up not too far away from here in Newark said that the erm, It has been said that the river is worse now than it's ever been in history. Well that's a load of rubbish. Absolute rubbish. There is no way the River Trent is worse now than and time in history. If you go back thirty, forty, fifty years. It was certainly far more polluted than it ever is today. [cough] They said that because they catch their fish. And the N R A have come out with the reason now, saying that the river is cooler in the winter periods, when the fishing seems to be off, and the fish aren't biting. That's the N R A's reason for the river fishing being not so good. [cough] But the U K has some of the highest some of the best quality rivers in Europe. The percentage of rivers in in the U K in the classes one and two, which are good and satisfactory, are far higher, in the U K, than they are in Europe. Something like ninety percent of our rivers fall in those categories. Now the on the subject of treatment I I now pull out a government report here, because where do we get criticized from? Where do we get prosecuted? We got prosecuted in Brussels. Erm E C court. Anyone been to Brussels? [speaker001:] Yeah. [J. Childs:] Do you know what happens to sewage in Brussels? [speaker001:] I think it goes straight in the river. [J. Childs:] Exactly. [LAUGHTER] They haven't got a treatment plant yet in Brussels. [cough] There's a report by the Sunday Times. Er let me read this few paragraphs from the Sunday Times report. [reading] Last week environmentalists, accompanied by the Sunday Times, visited the River Senn. [] Which is the river in Brussels. [reading] Less than four miles from [] That's the he was the environment minister at the time. [reading] headquarters and found evidence that the river is one of the most polluted in the twelve E C countries. municipal depot, choked with s with nettles and weeds, the sewage of the Belgian capital flows untreated and unnoticed through two forty s foot square pipes into the Senn. It's a practice that Britain abandoned years ago. A ten foot wide brown slick oozed continually into the blue grey waters, in which no fish can survive, and no person would dare to swim. Every inch added to the rivers reputation as the dustbin of Europe. [] And that was written in May nineteen ninety one. They have now put steps in hand to build a sewage treatment works. The first part of it will be finishing next years, with another one in the year two thousand. But that's where we're getting criticized from. A place that doesn't have a sewage treatment works. I think it'disgraceful. [cough]... But there is pressure to improve standards even more, in the U K. We have pressures to improve on on water quality although ninety nine point seven percent of our our water samples meet the tests. There's pressure to go even higher. And as you well know, or at least I hope you well know, as you approach sort of absolute sort of purity limits, the costs of doing so, escalate out of all proportion. The same with sewage treatment. There's another E C urban waste water directive treatment. Which will be enforced by the year two thousand requiring additional treatment for sewage effluence. In certain places. According to whether the are designated sensitive or not. And those are gonna push up costs. Now the director general of the watchdog is your friend. He's the guy who said, The escalation of prices has got to stop. We cannot carry on increasing water service charges by ten to fifteen percent, year in and year out. Where would it stop. People won't be able to afford to have the water services if you carry on in this way. So he's declared basically a dispute with the N R A amongst others, because he's identified that some of this pressure's coming from the Rivers Authority. Erm their their job is to make sure the rivers are clean. It's a question of how cle the ri should those rivers be? And how clean can we as a nation afford them to be. We could all have rivers brimming with salmon if you wish. But there's a price you're paying. And whether that price is worth paying is something only you can tell us. It's not for us to decide necessarily that we will we will treat effluence to a certain standard and pass the costs on to you, because that's where it all goes to. We erm we need to consult the customers. And this is what we've done. Now the current prices of water, I'm sure you think, Oh it's extortionate. [LAUGHTER] [cough] The average price in Severn Trent is a hundred and sixty four pounds per household. Now I guess from the affluent audience we've got here today that you pay more than that because you're living in higher rated value properties I guess. [cough] Correct me if I'm wrong. But the average price in Severn Trent is a hundred and sixty four pounds per household per year. That compares with the rest of the water companies, we are second lowest. Thames is the lowest with a hundred and fifty two, and South West is the highest at two hundred and sixty six. That's the current prices. So South West is [cough] is a hundred pounds a year more than ours. On a day basis, it's about forty five pence a day, which is er less than the price of a half a glass of beer. Or gentleman smoking there, it's less than four price of four cigarettes. Which I wouldn't have thought is extortionate in this day and age. So when you look at it on a yearly basis and a compare it to what it was a few years ago, Yes it's gone up a lot. But where will it go to if we're building all these new requirements to treat water and effluence to the higher standards. At the moment the er the regulators ask us to go to the to the customers, and this we have done, and produce something called market plans. Erm And you can all get a copy of this is you want to write to the water authority. Sorry, water company. Your future drinking water and sewage services. It's just a twelve page document, but it's it's the result of a customer survey which was carried out. We sent out fifty thousand videos to random customers. Did anyone in the audience get a video from Severn Trent? Ah well done sir. And did you send back your questionnaire? [speaker001:] Yes I did. [J. Childs:] Very good. Very good. And what did you think of it? [speaker001:] I thought it was very interesting what the the company or whatever you call yourselves nowadays, was doing. [J. Childs:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm I think what bothers a lot of us is the quality of water we get locally. [J. Childs:] Right. [speaker001:] I mean could you say something about that? I was going to ask a question but since you've asked me Alright. [J. Childs:] Well I'll c I'll that later. At least I'll try to armed with the facts. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] We sent out fifty thousand of those videos. You might well that's an extortionate way of of er of conducting a a market research. But actually those videos cost s less than a pound to produce each. So that's fifty thousand pounds. But a pound a head we thought was good value. And then we followed that up with market research of five thousand customers at random. And we priced from from what the customers told us what they wanted, and then we would tell the customers how much that would cost, we got a feeling for the support for certain initiatives. Yes they all wanted clean rivers, but then when they were told the price of complying with the urban waste water directive, they were less keen. Erm they wanted er sewer overflows to be stopped. They wanted leakage from our pipes to be stopped. That probably was the highest priority of all I think. Erm quickly. Yes eighty six percent wanted a substantial reduction on leakage, and sixty five percent wanted improved taste in the water. And there's a willingness to pay was high for those er for those benefits. The lower ones were improving storm sewer overflows and treating sewage even better, so there was less there was less enthusiasm for paying more money to improve sewage treatment works. But it's it's information that we need or the director general need in order to decide what prices will be set. Because we refer to South West again. They are spending a lot of money in the South West on cleaning up the beaches. They're providing sewage treatment plant, which they hadn't prov provided previously to send cleaner water into the seas. That is estimated to have cost between four hundred and five hundred pounds per household, by the year two thousand, if all those plans go through. And that's without inflation. Now inflation's very low at the moment, but if inflation took off again and got into double figures, then not only would your pensions suffer, but your bills would go up as well. We estimate in Severn Trent our bills' ll be two hundred and twenty seven pounds by the year two thousand. Per household, which is lower than three of them currently are. And how will you pay? Erm historically we've paid, most people have paid on the basis of of rateable value. Rateable value times so much er pence per pound R V. Since nineteen eighty nine of course, rateable value's dis disappeared. When the wonderful new system the poll tax came in. And so all new houses built since that date, have had no rateable value assess assessment. And so you can't use that system. So all new houses, certainly in Severn Trent region, since that date have had water meters. When we consulted our customers on how they wanted to pay for water, there was no clear preference. There was a slight preference maybe for water meters. Water meters can be argued to be fair. You have some influence over what you use, and so the size of the bill. Erm but it's an expensive system to install. And Severn Trent hasn't yet decided which way to go. There are a number of metering trials taking place throughout the U K. The Isle of Wight being one of them, substantial metering trials there. To see if the installation of metering on a large scale, does influence the er the usage of water, and if it does, and if that shows savings in the amount of water people people need, then maybe the water companies can reduce their reduce their capital investment programmes to provide even more water. So that the cost. But it's early days yet and there's no there's no definite answer. But we'll have to find an answer by the years two thousand, because the way the legislation's written, means that by the year two thousand we can no longer use rateable value. So we've got to find an alternative. Most of our customers really prefer a system based on property type, be it semi detaches, terrace, detached, mansion, castle or whatever. Erm but whether we go that way it's not been decided yet. There is an optional metering scheme, and if you do live in a higher rateable value property, and you don't use er above average amounts of water, you'd probably you'd probably benefit from put a water in or have a water meter installed. [cough]... So before you all nod off I'll just finish off. Er it's a large business is Severn Trent, er it's a growing business except we are in s in the water business in the U K water we are reducing numbers by about two percent a year. We're reducing our operating costs as well. But against that we've got these extra commitments in terms of higher quality which is again is pushing prices up. Our managing director Vic says in his market plan, that water services should be affordable, and I hope, I totally agree with that, they should be affordable, we shouldn't price people out of out of using our water services. And just finally I think compared to Europe we've got a lot to be proud of. Now if you want is it er is it the done thing to have questions? [speaker001:] Yes [J. Childs:] Right. [speaker001:] . [J. Childs:] I hope I can answer them. I I er just my background is er the dirty water side of the business rather than the clean water side. But I'll do my best. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] Yes? [speaker001:] Er what is anything is being done about supplying er inclement weather conditions such as the snow we had a couple of years ago. When the water supply vanished because there wasn't pumps. Is it sort of beyond plan to [J. Childs:] No it's beyond the cost I think. Erm [speaker001:] Put a generator in or som er [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] er a diesel engine to to [J. Childs:] We've looked Strategic sites were looked at after that event of December the eighth. I remember it well. Erm because we ran out of electricity on lunch time on the Saturday. That was restored on the Sunday, just at the same time as the water ran out. Erm yes there's been a been a long hard look at at our er vulnerability to to a shortage of of electricity. Erm that was strategic plans I think. We did have separate supplies in station. [LAUGHTER] It was a completely unique event as far as we were concerned it'd never happened before and hopefully it'll never happen again. It always comes to a question of cost though. You know if it's a once in a hundred years event, is it worthwhile providing all the backup equipment you've got, for all the stations that you've got. Erm Hopefully we would be better prepared next time, and that we can get in generators quickly if we don't already have them on standby. Some places do have them on standby. Some places never ran out of water.... [speaker001:] Can you tell us something about the quality of water locally? Erm a number of years ago we read in the paper that the Farnsfield borehole was being updated and [J. Childs:] Mhm. [speaker001:] cost erm to improve the quality of the water. And yet after that was completed I think the Water the Drinking Water Inspectorate condemned it as being one of the worst qualities of water in the country. [J. Childs:] Erm in terms of what? Nitrate? [speaker001:] In terms of nitrates and other solids yes. [J. Childs:] Nitrate levels have been rising in the ground water in Nottinghamshire, certainly most of the bore-holes, for the last twenty or thirty years. And we presume due to our agriculture, the use of fertilizers on the land, erm not entirely due to that. Not entirely fertilizers but... that seems to be er the main cause of it. They have set up nitrate sensitive zones in certain areas whereby farmers operate a different practice in within the the catchment area of a particular bore-hole. And more of those will come in because it's far better to prevent er not only nitrates but pesticides or anything else which is applied to land, getting into water. Because once it's in, it's far more expensive to get it out. So there are protection zones being, there are protection zones already in, and more are proposed. What we've done in North Notts is to sink some new bore-holes. And we are blending water supplies so that we can we can meet whatever limits are are applicable or appropriate. But if you have a problem with your water, in terms of taste or the quality, then you must phone us up. We'll give you a full report on what we're supplying. No problem about that. Nothing to hide. And if you've got some particular local problems, we'll we'll have a look at those as well. We are spe we are we're re-lining re-lining four thousand one hundred miles of mains. And re-laid seventeen hundred miles since nineteen eighty nine. In the town where I live, all the mains have been scraped and re-lined. The iron mains that were there. main cause of sort of discoloration problems. What what particular problem have you got? With your water? [speaker001:] Well the taste. [J. Childs:] The taste. It's just the chlorine. [speaker001:] It's er partly chlorine yes but it there are occasions when it smells like T C P. [J. Childs:] Mm. That's mostly because of a reaction with the washer in your tap. Erm have you reported it [speaker001:] Oh yes yes we were told that nothing could be done about it. [J. Childs:] Oh well usually when you get T C P it's because the chlorine's reacting with a phenolic compound within the tap washer. And changing the washers usually does the trick. Erm we expect to see improvements on chlorine, but I can't give you a time. We had to boost up chlorine levels actually, to meet E C directives. [LAUGHTER] I know the gentleman here thinks I shouldn't blame the E C for everything, but erm [speaker001:] No. Not everything. [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] But we did have to boost up chlorine levels in areas, because they weren't high enough. [speaker001:] Er can I can I just follow on the question of local local water and the taste and quality of local water. Erm you're a bit dismissive about bottled water. But if I buy [J. Childs:] No no no. I'm n I wasn't dismissive. Cos I [speaker001:] Well [J. Childs:] I buy it for my whisky because. [speaker001:] If I buy if I buy bottled water, I get with that bottle, er an analysis of the water that I'm drinking. [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's there on the label for me to see. Well for exam well at least I know how much sodium I'm taking in or what [J. Childs:] You don't really. You know what's on the analysis bec because that's stated. But there's no there's guarantee that what you buy in the bottle complies to that analysis. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] Those aren't my words, those are the words of which, the consumer's association. [speaker001:] Where do I where do I find the analysis for Severn Trent local water. [J. Childs:] You er either phone us up at Road at Nottingham, or you call in to see us, and we'll give you an an exact breakdown of what's in your water supply. [speaker001:] Why don't you send a little list round when you have the bills out. [J. Childs:] Because the logistics' d be impossible. You cannot you couldn't split up all our customers from Birmingham on a bore-hole by bore- hole basis. It'd be impossible. Yes. [speaker001:] The figures you gave us at the beginning I I seem to remember that you sell a lot more water abroad than in this country. And [J. Childs:] No [LAUGHTER] we treat more water abroad. [speaker001:] Pardon? [J. Childs:] We treat more water abroad. [speaker001:] Treat more. I see. Because you employ five hundred people [J. Childs:] Mm. [speaker001:] in other countries to nine thousand five hundred. [J. Childs:] That's right. The nine th nine thousand includes Biffa Waste, which is a waste disposal company as well. It's about seventeen hundred people in there. Erm and the there's we'll have some contractors as well working abroad. For most it's a lot of our services abroad are consultative. But we are actually running erm the the treatment works on Long Island in New York. And refurbishing that. This is Severn Trent Water International, it's not Severn Trent the local firm as it were. It's important that the company that side of the business, because e profits are there for the taking. We have to compete obviously. There's no competition locally. As it were apart from the bottled water that the gentleman there buys. That's why we're regulated. That's why we're regulated. But with the other companies that have been established, and all water companies have done the same, the way to increase profits is to go into er a business which you're in competition with other businesses and you stand or fail as to how well you do on that. But y the profits are there and you can make profits w outside of the control of the regulators. [speaker001:] Can I just ask you then, in relation to your waste disposal business, which is a fashionable diversification. [J. Childs:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Pardon? [J. Childs:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yes er but most other water authorities have got their er er subsidiary operating in waste disposal. [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Don't don't you think that there's a conflict of interest there. Because vast quantities of this waste is tipped, it's land tipping. [J. Childs:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Er and er obviously that does affect the ground water. [J. Childs:] Well it shouldn't do. [speaker001:] Well er it shouldn't but it does. [J. Childs:] It shouldn't if it's tipped correctly and monitored correctly, and controlled correctly. [speaker001:] Ah yes but it's not tipped correctly most of the time. [J. Childs:] As well I'll disagree with that. I mean there are problems with ground water in certain areas, because of the tipping practices that have been historical. But in today if you if you had a new landfill site developed today. Well then the control of that would be very stringent. [speaker001:] Yes but then thinking about those that have been running for some time. [J. Childs:] Yeah. And there have been problems with with ground water in some of those areas. Not only in areas where there have been tips I might add. There are problems with ground waters in certain industrial areas where er factory premises have allowed solvents to leak. There was a case recently in Anglia er Anglia Water Cambridge Water Company sued a leather works for solvent over the years, to pollute the aquifer. And you know the sums were horrendous. Millions of pounds worth of damage. I mean they had to abandon the bore-hole. And prevention is better than cure. You have to prevent these substances entering into the ground waters. Because as I say if you've got to clean them up afterwards, the costs are horrendous. [speaker001:] You say that all new houses er have no rateable value, are metered. How does the average er charge for metered water for those compare with the average for the other houses. [J. Childs:] [LAUGHTER] I've no idea it depends how much water they use. [speaker001:] Well I know but the average figure I mean there [J. Childs:] Erm [speaker001:] there must be quite a number of houses in this category [J. Childs:] There are. [speaker001:] and it would be a good guide I think for people as to whether to have meters or not. [J. Childs:] Well if you work out on sort of er thirty or forty gallons per head per day. Erm per person, yeah. You can work out how much water you're going to use. Unless you've got a huge garden or a huge [speaker001:] Yeah. [J. Childs:] greenhouse that you want to to use tap water to irrigate. But that's about the domestic consumption. But the more appliances you have, the more washing machines, er more appliance washing machines, the more dishwashers, garbage grinders and this is sort of ilk. That's gonna push the water consumption higher. [speaker001:] Is there any possibility of going to a separate system and using er non potable water for all these other activities which must take up about seventy five or eighty percent of the quantities? [J. Childs:] Probably a lot more actually. [speaker001:] Yeah. [J. Childs:] Probably ninety percent of the water of more I would guess e erm is used for non potable usage. And I suppose if we'd got a clean sheet, and we started again, we'd do it differently. Er but to actually provide a duplicate system now,I I dread to think how much the cost would be. Erm I mean one way to do it of course is to say that none of our water's fit for drinking, and you all get bottled water then wouldn't you. Well that was a seriously mooted thing at one time of course. Erm a a a and the idea of having potable and non potable supplies is not viable anyway because the public health risk is too high. [speaker001:] Is it viable to reduce the leakage? [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is that a viable proposition? [J. Childs:] Yeah that's what we're spending a lot of money doing as well. Erm [speaker001:] But is it viable? [J. Childs:] Well you'll never eliminate leakage because leakage is a global term for water that we can't account for. And it includes it in yeah it includes water which is leaking from customers premises. Its' the overflow that's operating at night maybe when the pressures. I mean one way we can accommodate that is to put pressure resistant valves in, maybe and drop the pressures a bit at night. But that leakage figure isn't just the leakage in our pipes, it's the leakage or the water that you can't account for going out of customers premises and factories as well. [speaker001:] Well at least this would be a good er on that wouldn't it. [J. Childs:] It would mean I mean we've just been involved with one of the hospital because there's an audit commission report on costs to hospital services. Which said basically they paid too much money for water. And we got involved with the local, National Healthy Facility I think they're called. Their energy engineer got in touch with us very early on. And erm it was we looked at one hospital and quite clear over the years, but there was an internal leak somewhere. And we were able to find that for them. But erm reducing leakage is a i is a is a priority for us. But at the same time we'll never eliminate it completely. Never. I think the average figure's about nineteen percent. [speaker001:] If you add that to the eight ninety percent that needn't be potable, it seems to be very attractive to er deliver it in bottles doesn't it. [J. Childs:] Well it out yet. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] It's something I've thought about but I I I guess the cost would be horrendous but they wouldn't I don't know. [speaker001:] What would it cost to in for me to install a meter in my house? [J. Childs:] The meters are supplied free of charge, it's er you can either o it yourself or you can get your local plumber to fit it. It has to be fitted in accordance with the bye-laws erm and we give out advice on where it should be fitted. But the meters free. [speaker001:] Mm, [J. Childs:] Probably thirty or forty pounds at the most. [speaker001:] Why why do you charge erm at least for for domestic premises, seventeen percent more? We moved in in the Autumn from. [J. Childs:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And the the charge the pence in the pound, and I don't about the forget the rateable value. The [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] pence in the pound here, is seventeen percent higher, than that that we were charged [J. Childs:] This is for what? For water? [speaker001:] For water. Yes. For water and sew Well actual water water is seventeen, sewage is sixteen. Is that a technical reason or is that purely money judgement?... [J. Childs:] There were eight charging zones in Severn Trent with difference p pence erm rateable values. [speaker001:] Oh so within Severn Trent I see. [J. Childs:] Erm it looks like you've gone from a lower cost one to a higher cost one. [speaker001:] Mm. [J. Childs:] But if you go just across the river, to Anglia. [LAUGHTER] You'll find it's a lot more expensive. Especially on measured. If you've got a water in and you pay not only your water supply in but also your sewage out on the basis of what comes through the meter. So if you take a hundred gallons on a day meter, you're charged for a hundred gallons of water going out as sewage, er the Anglia rate is is is double ours for sewage. [speaker001:] if you go to Marks and Spencer or Sainsbury's [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] a tin of beans in the south will cost the same as a tin on beans in the north. [J. Childs:] Well yeah. [speaker001:] It's the same firm. [J. Childs:] We we we regionalized we have regionalize charges speaking. Er this is there is some disparity the price for er measured supplies is the same, wherever you are. It's the rateable value charges which were different. And I can't really give you a satisfactory explanation as to why that is. [speaker001:] In if everyone had a meter, [J. Childs:] Yeah. [speaker001:] er as to what would happen to the metered charges as as against what they are at the moment. [J. Childs:] Not as far as I'm aware at least not I've read as to what would be the effect of that. But if there was a reduction in usage, if there was a reduction in usage, because people had got water meters in, then our charges or our costs for providing additional security er in terms of more reservoirs, increased pumping etcetera etcetera, would would be reduce. And we would pass on those benefits to the customer. Incidentally I don't know if you've been to Anyone been to Reservoir? [speaker001:] Yes. [J. Childs:] Because that's our a reservoir which was commissioned last year, to secure supplies for the East Midlands, cost us a hundred and seven million pounds. But it's a really good place to go to if you've got a any spare time and I'm sure spare time, it's well worth going there, erm you can hire bikes. Er you can hire sail boats and er it's I I've been there a couple of times. I went there for the opening and I'm really proud to be associated with water because I think it's I think it's a wonderful piece of engineering and excellent. [speaker001:] Right is there's no more questions, thank you very much Mr. [J. Childs:] Thank you. [speaker001:] And a vote of thanks. [cough] Mr President, fellow members of Probus, I on your behalf would like to propose a vote of thanks to John, for the very lucid explanation he's given to us on the operations of Trent Water. Er just one small question from me John. Have Severn Trent got on the bandwagon yet, for tidying up the water in Brussels. [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] Well Yes. Not necessarily Brussels but Belgium we're got a joint venture company and we are sending our expertise to help them sort out the I think it's the erm the Flanders region anyway Brussels. So we've got an involvement there. [speaker001:] So possibly that might reduce our costs. [LAUGHTER] [J. Childs:] Well hopefully. [speaker001:] Well thank you John for that very interesting talk, and perhaps the members of Probus would join me in giving you that [applause] [end of recording]

[speaker001:] What's that? That's all right it's what [Marilyn:] Bit scary isn't it? [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Okay so has anybody had a chance to look at some of the things er Okay so if you want to talk about... what you've got. Was it you two who were gonna go Scott and Rebecca who were gonna do the talk. Hang on you can You can [speaker001:] I can get chip in [Sally-ann:] Chip in. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] You all the responses and things like that. [Chris:] Say I agree with that. [Dave:] And I'll keep quiet and all to myself. Okay... go for it. [Sally-ann:] Are we still doing anything about I've got to I've got some inf information about. [Dave:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] First. I've got this Yeah yeah look Ah no we haven't discussed it yet. [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] Oh superb. [Dave:] We'll discuss that after you've took a look at [Marilyn:] When's your interview? Next week? [Sally-ann:] Er It's it's supposed to be due in Friday week three [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] But... I think sometime during week four. [speaker001:] Oh that's good, thank you. [Sally-ann:] Yeah. [Dave:] Right so the thing is if we talk about what you've read and then... The idea is that if there's anything out of you've read that's given you an idea for an essay then you can do that. [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] thank you [] [Dave:] And if not we can think of something more specific afterwards. But we'll go through what you've read first and then try to work something. [Sally-ann:] [cough] a definition sort of Says it ready to make stereotype judgements about personality, E G you can tell he's anxious by his voice is in inverted commas or she sounds very strong minded. And this type of stereotypical link has led to various experiments. At the first experiment of er I think of this kind it was er in nineteen sixty. Who had done it already despite the English, French Canadians and how they felt about each other. And er they felt had little prestige and that the French peop The French Canadian speakers had little prestige in their own language. But er e English er guises were favoured more than the French ones even by the French themselves. And er o despite that sort of just said something about the [speaker001:] [cough] [Sally-ann:] procedure but we'd already done that. So [speaker001:] [cough] [Sally-ann:] there wasn't really There wasn't really a great deal of er sort of stuff here but it was more about sort of language and shifts so I had to like... shift through it and find the bits [Dave:] Right. [Sally-ann:] that were more er. Well these sort of languages often considered to be the central pillar to group attachment and er official agencies like government an and things like historically support group language purity. And er a although we usually associate language identity with minority groups, linked with minority groups er it's quite important that we don't erm dismiss the prominence it has in majority groups as well. And it quotes Quote from nineteen eighty four. Who says that the best predictor of future social behaviour is... is past social behaviour all things being equal and er as any assessment of linguistic of a linguistic scene will profit... from an historical awareness. [yawning] [] Anyway er. Oh yeah, that's right. It says he believed that the historical awareness will help any linguistic scene to profit. An analysis of what people have done is likely to be useful not only in ascertaining what they're likely to do but also what their linguistic needs are. he's just saying that... in a group if we look at the historical background of the language, it helps to see you know how What the strong points are of the linguistic and what we need... to be bolstered on.... Er if we're to understand the dynamics of language in our density and how it exists in the minds of ordinary speakers we must consider the real life record. So he looks at Island and America. He looks at Island er and the Irish language and in America he looks at immigrant e adaptation and the value of the historical record in each. Erm he also states that the erosion of language does not mean the erosion of an identity. And essentially identity revolves around the idea of political boundaries and groups. And language and identity is not indis er indissoluble link. So if you know language and identity need not be together cos identity is er essentially political as opposed to linguistic. But is common that they both are together in that way. Er Right he says on the subject of attachment of identity and language and why and why not language is maintained, he cites Harris and and the Yiddish and... Na-dene speakers. Vis-a-vis Hebrew. Yiddish yiddish served as a lingua franca for [LAUGHTER] Jews. And Na-dene did for the Jews. When the sates of Hebrew heightened thus becoming the language of Israel, Yiddish and Na-dene became somewhat redundant... and er in his survey of America [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] [LAUGHTER] In his study of Amer [] In his study of m the U S he found that seventy five percent of the s people who spoke Na-dene, couldn't give a reason er a proper reason for passing their language on to the er children. Because i i they though it was in competition with other varieties around and it something t It wasn't necessarily to do with the fact that erm they though it was less it held less prestige in the... community. It was just that erm the other varieties around were competing too heavily against it so they thought what's the point of passing it on to the children. And er... let's think... That's it on that. I think. Cos there wasn't really much [Dave:] Okay. [Sally-ann:] on it. I did the Maastricht one well as which is a bit more to do. The Maastricht you know [Dave:] Yeah tell us a bit about it cos [Sally-ann:] Okay this was a bit better this.... Right the situation in Maastricht up till the nineteenth century was that It was described as a di- or tri-glossic erm linguistic community. With French and standard Dutch as competing high varieties and the dialect of Maastricht as a common variety. Which is like the third of the tri-glossic [speaker001:] What was it German and French? [Sally-ann:] No French and standard Dutch. And Maastricht was the common variety. And er the dialect today whenever this experiments was... which year it was but it said today. The dialect is still very unlike Dutch itself... on levels of phonology, morphology and lexis itself. You know it doesn't It doesn't like look too much like the standard Dutch. And and a funny thing is, it's not limited to social class... within Holland itself. I it seems to be functional, so you know you get like lawyers and farmers and all sorts of people using it. So it's a the tests it was a match-guising experiment and the tests er tested sixty four people... who were aged the ages were fifty five plus, thirty to forty five and fifteen to twenty. They were sort of equally distributed in those ages. And er process was er match-guising so it was You know they were list They listened to three different people... well th th they thought it was three people it was one person doing three ac the three accents... er dialects sorry. And er it was the process was analyzed on a list of personal tracks. And er [whispering] Oh there was one other thing []. The match-guising results were interesting because instead of the typical prestige of the standard language, and the attractiveness of a dia You know a If you did R P and say er Cockney, you'd probably get people saying that their R P was prestigious but the cockney was sort of more you know y more friendly and more attractive accent. Er it was found that the status items were about the same for both. So there wasn't a great difference bet The status items of things like honesty and er leadership and stuff like that. The items weren't greatly different on scores between they had a little graph. But st standard Dutch won on leadership but the other status items shows sort of scores that were very close to each other and they're not significantly different. That was it. [Dave:] Okay that's. Okay what have you [Marilyn:] Got a bit from Erm the match-guise erm it helps to show the stage in attitudes. How they were towards peoples of other languages or language varieties. Erm you know it just says about how they carry it out about subjects assumes that er the samples. And and judgements are made on intelligence, personality and suitability and particular occupations and although they're only limited speech samples erm many subjects judge them.... Erm [Chris:] Sorry what were the erm things that related to personality? [Marilyn:] Intelligence and suitability and particular occupations.... And then it was saying about quantitative and qualitative measures. Quantitative measures may allow a discovery of pattern in the situations which might otherwise merely be seen as random variation. [Dave:] Not really talking about the issues, just Yeah I mean if you're looking at quantitative things it's really you know how much actual How much variation happens whereas qualitative is... you know what the actual variations [speaker001:] entails [Dave:] entails. you know what the actual quality of the variations are. [Marilyn:] Okay. Erm.... Judging occupational suitability presumes a hierarchy and what this is must be determined erm differently for every culture being investigated. And second one is a book by [speaker001:] Beardsmoor and he sheep says about [LAUGHTER] the Canadian soc social [] psychologist [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] W E Lambert who was the one that match-guise technique erm and basically he's just kind of saying about the technique that it shows corre correlations between the degree of bilingual ability and attitudinal dispositions. Erm... and it's sort of erm features that are expressed er like intelligent and then intelligent er... it reveals to what extent subjects perceive speakers in a particular language as having desirable or undesirable traits... with which they may or may not wish to identify. Erm and this technique can trigger comunic communally shared stereotyped images of a linguistic community and reveal the degree of tolerance... erm for the different erm languages. And then the other one is the one that I got from the library by Luhmann. Erm that's a b bit too But it's it's about... Appalachian English? [Dave:] Appalachian. [Marilyn:] Okay. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] Appalachian then. [] Erm [Chris:] Who's this book by? [Marilyn:] Luhmann L U H M A double N.... Appalachian English is one of the surviving non-standard regional dialects of English in the United States and it's associated with the residents of the Appalachian mountain range. Erm it's a community isolation because is like mountains around which makes barriers against physical mobility that can't really be moved round that easily. Erm so they just kind of stay put and so the dialects thrive because it's just such a physical It's in physical and social isolation. Erm and then it's talking about standard variety that it's usually the standard variety that's accepted as the proper one when compared to other like smaller varieties erm dialects and stuff. The low status dialects are associated with neg negative prestige. Erm... Appalachian English differs from standard American English in grammar, phonology, lexicon and intonation. Erm and then just generally language is far more than just a means of communication. It symbolizes our social experience and locates us with social groups from which we draw our identities.... Erm and none standard language varieties are associated with those social status groups erm they acquire status evaluation, their speakers.... Erm the speakers on the samples are either bilingual or bi-dialectal and... erm... the dialects listed are in between standard American English and the eastern Kentucky sub-dialect of Appalachian English. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] There's four bi-dialectal speakers two males and two females, erm who are also actors and native speakers natives of Kentucky erm... And then it g And then it goes into the the different factors of Appalachian English. but we don't really need to go into that do we? [Dave:] No.... [Marilyn:] Erm... Oh and here's a quote. [reading] In almost any country standards speakers and non-standard speakers view the former as more successful, intelligent, ambitious, wealthy and educated. The status of items that were looked at er educated and uneducated, intelligent unintelligent, wealthy poor, successful unsuccessful, and ambitious and carefree. And solidarity items were trustworthy untrustworthy, good bad, sympathetic unsympathetic, friendly unfriendly, honest dis dishonest and dependable and unreliable. [] Erm they were eight speech samples [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] without taking a breath. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] Erm and they were also asked where the where they though the speaker was from. So the results that were got, is that the Kentucky accented speech was high in solidarity and low in status. And the standard English was high status and low solidarity.... So the stereotype of Appalachian English speakers is that they're not very intelligent, they've got a lack of ambition and success and a poor education.... Erm and the two the two females in the solidarity evaluations they it was constant the d There wasn't any change erm across the two guises but with the males there was a significantly higher score in solidarity... when they were in the Kentucky accented guises. [Chris:] Erm so the er Kentucky people were [cough] erm not am ambitious and not educated wasn't it? [Marilyn:] Low intelligence, lack of ambition and success, and poor education.... That's about it.... Oh the stereotypes serve to strengthen ethnic identification and group boundaries. In such social social settings linguistic differences become important boundary markers that require careful cultivation. [Dave:] Good. You said that some of their actual differences in speech? [Marilyn:] Yeah. Erm... it's talking about glide reduction. [Sally-ann:] What does it say? What what reduction? [Marilyn:] Glide. [Sally-ann:] Glide? [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] Is it an eliminator? [Marilyn:] Yeah elimination of the off glide on a word such as my which becomes ma. [Dave:] Okay so The sound at the end of my er it would seem to have like a glide [Chris:] What's the difference between a glide and a diphthong? [Dave:] Er... I not really sure it depends on what you mean in that particular context. I mean in som In some ways in the word my it might have part of that symbol you write with a J in it. You know might be part of a actually a continuant rather than a vowel. And it could be the fact that maybe that's getting reduced. And as I say they would. Erm [Marilyn:] They just That was the only example they gave and said that as the word [Dave:] Well it well it could b Right I mean it could be that that the th the glide from first vowel in the diphthong to the second one and that that's gone off so you're left wi with a [Marilyn:] No yeah [Dave:] I guess it's probably just that he glide up to the second part of the diphthong,... has been displaced so you've just got the first part of it left, [Marilyn:] Mm. [Dave:] so it's a single vowel.... [Marilyn:] Then another thing was Unstressed ing. That erm instead of saying ng they pronounced it as just N. In words such as building graduating and nothing it would just be an N on the end like buildin graduatin. Erm... They dropped the final consonant in a co If there was like a consonant cluster at the end of the wor word. So instead of saying kept they'd just say kep. Erm... [whispering] [] of a unstressed syllable erm like X in except, so they'd just say except. Erm and of initial like instead of saying them they'd say just say em. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] Erm... Oh yeah substitution of A for What's that with an A and a U? [Dave:] Er ow? [Marilyn:] Ow. Which makes Yeah which makes for of Our and Are. Substitution of [phonic] I for [phonic] E so instead of forget you know [phonic] I for [phonic] E So instead of saying forget you'd say forgit. And [Chris:] [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] rising pitch in declarative sentences. That's all. [Dave:] Right, okay. Have you got anything [Chris:] Yeah [speaker001:] go back to Alcuin bar [Sally-ann:] Do do you still do this title an all? [Dave:] Erm I think so. [Marilyn:] What are we going to do? What's the [Dave:] Right. [Marilyn:] subtitle gonna be? [Dave:] Well there's three, there's three different ways of going about it I guess you could do. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] A whirlwind just come through the [LAUGHTER] Oh god! [Sally-ann:] When you left the door open the wind just blew [Marilyn:] Said it in [Sally-ann:] it in. [Chris:] [LAUGHTER] Right. Erm... [Sally-ann:] three ways to do an insect. [Dave:] We should return to that book [Sally-ann:] Oh right. [Marilyn:] Sorry? [speaker001:] Na don't worry. [Chris:] I did the one from the book list that was erm Giles and Howard. [Dave:] Aha [Chris:] No I didn't. I did Which one did I do Yes I did. [Sally-ann:] You did. [Chris:] Giles. Well Erm he's talking erm language convergence like erm shifting your sides match. as people are like. Erm convergence erm they describe as [reading] Individuals shift their speech styles to become more alike that of those with whom they are interacting. And the adaptations they make are made on several different levels erm they might become more alike in their language, in their pronunciation, their rate of speech, their pause or utterance length and their vocal intensities [].? [speaker001:] Mm. [Chris:] Nothing. [reading] And erm also in what they're saying the intimacy of their self-dissuasions. [] What they actually say themselves I suppose. Erm and it's talking about this er accommodation theory Giles' accommodation theory which has one main assumption erm that all the things I've just mentioned about pronunciation and speech rates and things, erm they all occur in in order to encourage more interaction between the two speakers. Erm so in assuming that that in these sort of situations, the speaker and the listener erm quote [reading] Share a set of interpreted procedures which allow speakers intention to be encoded by the speaker and correctly interpreted by the listener []. Erm then it talks about similarity attraction processes erm and there's theory Similarity attraction process theory proposes that quote, [reading] The more similar our attitudes and beliefs are with others the more likely it is we'll be attracted to them []. Erm and speech convergence is one of the many methods of becoming more similar to another person, so that you erm get rid of your linguistic differences. Erm [Sally-ann:] So was that the convergence theory? [Chris:] That was Convergence was when you shift your speech style to become more like somebody else. And erm similarity attraction [Sally-ann:] Oh [Chris:] theory [Sally-ann:] sorry. [Chris:] is that more similar your attitudes and beliefs are to somebody, the more likely it is that you'll mutual attraction. [cough] And so we can show that by speech convergence. Erm convergence reflects a speakers desire for erm to get the listeners social approval. Erm because once you've got their approval that increase the attraction and the intelligibility of what you're saying and predictability but I don't know quite what they mean by that. Erm in general people desire approval more often than they don't, so the general tendency in conversations is for people to converge to each other in many situations. Erm Are you keeping up? [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] Just about, yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Erm many factors effect what type and extent of convergence happens erm and these can include the range of the speakers repertoire, the probability that there will be future interactions with the same listener,... erm the status relationship between the two... participants and whether there's any recollections of previous shifts made by the listener in the same conversation. Erm... and then it says that somebody called Natalie... erm wrote in nineteen seventy five, that the greater somebody's need for approval, the greater their tendency will be to converge with a style. Erm and the way this is most often shown like the the th type of convergency they do is that they erm... change their vocal intensity to match that of the other person and their pause length is made the same. Erm... then it goes on about quite a bit of this Erm perception and decoding of the speech style er talking about er Martin and Giles. Subject presumes perceived er speaker as pr prestigious and authoritative and they perceived that there might be future interaction with him perceived his speech is more similar to their own than subjects who were told nothing about the speaker. Erm and the difference in appraisal between the groups of people that knew about the speaker before and those that didn't know anything, they say it is important to the similarity attraction. Erm social exchange processes this talks about the rewards and costs of convergence up against each other. Erm the similarity attraction model tends only to emph to emphasize the rewards of convergent. Erm I E an increase in attraction or approval the other person. But there are costs involved as well and these include the increased effort you have to make in conversation erm and loss of perceived integrity and personal group identity sacrificing yourself to match up to them. Erm... Yeah, and they say that er before we actually erm... do a [LAUGHTER] speech convergence for want of a better phrase [], erm that we kind of weigh up in our heads, quickly, the rewards and cost of you know alternative courses of action. And so from a choice of between X and Y we're going to choose the opt option that we think maximizes the chances of a positive outcome, I E approval. Erm so convergent speech acts should therefore incur more potential rewards for the speaker than costs. Erm the rewards they're talking about depend on which hat level your convergence occurs at. Erm and they give the example of erm a job interview Accent in a job interview. Where it's two males, male applicant and a male interviewer, and the prospective employee has a less prestigious accent than the interviewer, so it's quite likely that the prospective employee would shift his accent towards a more that of the employer, due to his relative need of approval so much more than... vice versa. And the rewards then would be that erm from the interviewers point of view he be you know viewed as more intelligent, self-confident, industrious all this sort of thing, make him say determined, erm more understandable to the interviewer obviously, and also the there He's more likely to be well liked by the interviewer, and that's Because of that not only his voice but the content of what he's actually saying is gonna be more favourably looked upon. Erm... then it talks about the opposite. Oh sorry that Before that er erm shows about how this erm convergence from dialectal to sort of pr prestigious or R P accent is known as a upward convergent. And then it talks about the opposite accent and it gives the example of There'll be an industrial dispute in a small family business erm and there is possibly a greater need by the employer to win the workers' approval. Erm within the limits of his repertoire he'll shift his accent down towards that that of the workers erm shows them... cooperation and that's known as a downward convergence. Erm downward convergence are generally done to reduce embarrassment between people of different statuses.... Erm so it makes a common basis of communication. Mutual c convergence can also occur with upwards convergent by person and that's completed by downward towards the other. That's generally if they both desire integration so it's not just done on the part of one person. Erm so they're saying that erm speech convergence is generally erm quite favourably perceived. That's about it really. [Dave:] Right okay. You haven't got anything else to add before we talk about? Okay as I said before, I think there's sort of three ways of doing the essay. You can either think about doing one that is very literature based which I supposed might end up being... sort of a rewrite of a lot of the stuff you can read. Or you can do a vaguely experimental sort of thing. Now there's two different things you can do, there's one which you were originally gonna do... when it was a project. [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] Which was to like actually do an experiment which might be a bit time consuming now and you might have to do [speaker001:] Yeah. [Dave:] If you want to do it you haven't really got you probably haven't got the time. [speaker001:] Haven't got the time. [Dave:] The other thing might be do just do a questionnaire asking people about their attitudes to accents and dialects and [speaker001:] Yes mm. [Dave:] languages. And that's something which you haven't like got to do a lot of recording for You haven't got test conditions you've got to think of some questions and photocopy it. [speaker001:] Mm. [Sally-ann:] Mm. [Dave:] And then if you want to read some literature and talk about some of the things which Once you've said what questions you want to ask you'll want to read some stuff You've either read a lot of it already, the stuff you've done today is useful, and do a bit of your essay saying, This is what the literature says, so we did an experiment to test this aspect and here's the results we found, let's discuss this. Erm [Marilyn:] So based on match-guise that's what it's gonna be about. [Dave:] Well I mean you can't really you can't do much you can't do much about [Chris:] You can't really do that though [Dave:] The best thing would be to s sort of say I don't know but the sort of thing which came into my mind were questions like you know, Which accents... do you think Yeah or I mean which accents do you think people sound more intelligent when they've got I mean, it's not that's heavily match- guised cos in match guised people are doing it without knowing what they're doing. In this [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] we're asking people to make an informed choice [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] and people have got to be aware of their prejudices [Marilyn:] But [Dave:] when they're answering. [Marilyn:] yeah everybody's got some sort of accent that grates on their nerves though haven't they? [Dave:] Yeah. [Marilyn:] That they can't stand and there's another one they think it's nice. [Dave:] Yeah I mean people don't always agree on those things [Marilyn:] Mm. [Dave:] but you actually find some trends [Marilyn:] Mm. [Dave:] across the board. [Sally-ann:] Mm. [Dave:] Er which also really doesn't look as if actually asks you cross section. [Marilyn:] Yeah you've gotta almost ask say you keep getting an accent erm Oh I don't know say Brummie accent or something that people don't really think sounds very nice. [Dave:] Mhm. [Marilyn:] Then you've got to go and try and find somebody from Birmingham saying and erm [Dave:] Yeah I mean [Chris:] Mm [Dave:] if you can actually try and find one. I mean it's probably a good idea to make a If you do a questionnaire to make a note of what accent the people you're asking have got. [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Dave:] And that way when you analyze the results you can sort of say, Well... we found that say Birmingham was very disliked erm but you can say that wasn't... I mean if everybody in the whole sample [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] had been... I dunno a very then you can say, Oh so it doesn't really show very much. But if you have a reasonable cross section of the country and your result was still that Birmingham was looked down upon as a low status accent, then at least you can your results so.. [Marilyn:] Would you have to say why? Why you [Dave:] Well I think if you can come up with some suggestions you don't have to say why. Y you can say why you think it might be. [Marilyn:] Some of it's the erm Actually could we put something like that in the questionnaire, What don't you like about it. [Dave:] Yeah definitely. [Marilyn:] Erm [Chris:] Mm. [Marilyn:] but the thing is [Dave:] See if you can actually quantify it or if it's irrational. [Marilyn:] Yeah but I I mean sort of patronize them [Sally-ann:] [cough] They might of Oh sorry [Marilyn:] but because they're not linguists [Sally-ann:] Yeah. [Marilyn:] they might not know how to say it. [Dave:] Well [Sally-ann:] They might might [Dave:] in some ways the way that people describe things [Marilyn:] The words they use. [Dave:] I mean they're not a linguist but the words they use will say a lot about what they think about. [Marilyn:] A lot about what they think. [Dave:] I mean if somebody says I used to People finding grating people might say, Oh I find it grating but it doesn't really mean anything does it? [Marilyn:] Mm. [Dave:] And s I mean that's a a sort of non-linguistic of the people use but you sort of [Sally-ann:] I suppose you have to into something linguistic then? [Dave:] And you have to work out what they mean by that. Er I mean it could just be that they don't like it, so anything which they don't like is grating or [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] Whatever. I mean does that sound like the decent thing to do? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Marilyn:] Should we all do the same questions? [Chris:] I I get together [Dave:] Yeah. [Chris:] on the same? [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Dave:] I think you should all do the same questionnaire and the same survey but then if you can write it up separately. [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] Yeah. [Marilyn:] So d do you want us to do like tables, results, you know [Chris:] I don't [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] or just write? [Dave:] Er it's up to you I mean if your results I mean you're not going to have loads and loads of results. So [speaker001:] No [Dave:] I mean doing a couple of tables probably won't be that hard work cos it just be a case of a list of averages or something. [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Dave:] Or a list of scores. But I mean it's up to you if results are very simple you can sort of say, Oh well sixty percent went this way and forty [Marilyn:] Mm. [Dave:] went the other way. I mean it's up to you to display the data in the way that you think's best. [Chris:] Okay. [Dave:] Erm... is everyone okay with that? [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] Mm. [Dave:] Right the best thing to do [Chris:] should we do it now? The questions? [Dave:] think of some now. Because if you should think some now in the next five or ten minutes, and then if during the next week you meet in the week sometime [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] to organize this. [Chris:] do we do we want [Dave:] And if you get [Chris:] to Sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say [Dave:] Sorry. [Chris:] do we want to erm go I mean obviously we want to go away and I'll do it with my friend and you'll do it your [Marilyn:] Mm. [Chris:] friend and you'll do it with your friend. Erm but do you want us to keep our own results or do you want us to pool all together [Dave:] I think you should pool together [Sally-ann:] Say we could do ten each or something like that. [Dave:] Yeah that would only be [Marilyn:] Yeah [Dave:] thirty people's plenty really [Marilyn:] Yeah okay [Dave:] something. [Marilyn:] Right. [Dave:] Er I might say if keep a little check list of whether each person you ask is male or female or how old they are [Sally-ann:] Mm. [Dave:] what accent they've got I mean th that's plenty to do. [Chris:] Yeah so yeah they've got to add some conditions on top of this things so it's like should we do an age range thing? Or is that gonna be too wide [Sally-ann:] Well [Dave:] I think one person who is in their thirty or forties or two people so, you know you can't really quantify that very easily. [Sally-ann:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] Er so you might be best just sticking to people who are the s around the same age you know eighteen to twenty two or something. [Sally-ann:] Is it best to do sort of a say if a question, Which accent do you not like? Is it best to do a series of accents and get 'em to tick or get 'em to [Marilyn:] Yeah like multiple choice ones. [Sally-ann:] Cos if you get em If you put a bo A multiple choice and if They're not actually think they just like look at one and, Oh I don't really like that all I don't really like think about it. [Marilyn:] Yeah they put an idea into their heads don't you? yeah. [Sally-ann:] Yes. [Dave:] Yeah. [Chris:] Yeah. [Dave:] It it has this property of I you do put a list of accents it's a good idea to put other at the bottom in case there is [Chris:] Mm mm. [Dave:] one you haven't mentioned. [Marilyn:] Mm. [Dave:] Because [Chris:] There's there's so many though aren't there I mean there's that Scottish accents which I love but other ones are a bit kind of difficult to understand you know. [Dave:] Yeah I mean if you sort of put Scottish accent then you're probably going to [Sally-ann:] But [Dave:] lots of Scottish people. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] what's what's a Scottish accent [Chris:] Well there just think of it as being very different don't they? [Dave:] Well yeah. I mean [Sally-ann:] Course they [Chris:] yeah. [Dave:] Er so... you might be better of leaving it open. Or leave it open for some questions if you want to test a ps specific thing in another question then try and test that. [Chris:] Mm. [Dave:] Erm. A thing that's really about accents that if you say to somebody, What accent don't you like? They might really dislike sort of a standard English accent sort of [Chris:] But they don't yeah [Dave:] standard sort of middle class thing but the pre thin they might not think of that because people sort of quite often think of that as not being an accent. [Chris:] Yeah. [Dave:] Which is quite difficult. [Chris:] Yeah well it's on all the radio and T V and stuff isn't it? [Dave:] Yeah. [Chris:] And they don't think about it or [Marilyn:] Mm. [Chris:] or you could think it also true that I think wh what you think you're supposed to like as well. [Dave:] Yes I mean [Chris:] you're keep being told that's the way you're supposed to [Dave:] Sorry. If you did have a list it one of the list B B C English or Queen's English or something that makes people know what they w what you're trying to tell them. [Chris:] B B C accent yeah [Dave:] Er whereas if you ask somebody to name an accent they'd probably think of regional varieties, urban varieties, [Chris:] But they don't think it is one [Dave:] rural ones. [Chris:] do they? [Dave:] Well you could you could do you could [Sally-ann:] putting a Say if you put [speaker001:] I won't join in this [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] Say you put, What accent do you not like? And put a line. And put in brackets E G you know how you like give an example for them to fill in and say E G B B C [Dave:] Yes [Sally-ann:] English something like that [Dave:] Well what what you could do is... put in brackets somewhere a list of accents you can think of so that if people really don't know what to do. [Marilyn:] Yeah so you've got a list [Dave:] It's not your list of choices it's not going to have to take box form. But they can just look through so they can say I can't think of an accent let's have a quick look through this list. [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] Yeah. [Dave:] Er and that way you can include you can even include sort of very upper class varieties which are sort of [Chris:] We we could ask them actually where you could put where are you from [Dave:] Yeah. [Chris:] and then say, Do you perceive yourself as having an accent? [Dave:] Yeah. [Chris:] As well and so that that get's over whether they... you know that get's over this thing about erm... views of other people j the way you [Dave:] Yeah. [Chris:] somebody else up you've got a massive accent, but then turns round and says, Well so have you. So there again perhaps try and find somebody who's from where they've said they're from and they might be ticking this box you know. [Dave:] Yeah. Another thing that might be worth doing as well I mean don't make it too complicated we ought to about which things to put in. if you want to say put the name of an accent down You wanted to put say Birmingham and then say, How would you rate people who have a strong accent from this place on a scale of one to five for... friendless, honesty the things which you could [Sally-ann:] Yeah [Marilyn:] Yeah [Chris:] Yeah [Dave:] scale of one to five for each one with one being er [Marilyn:] But yeah I mean it's not going to be quite so true because they're gonna think Well when you write it down you think Well actually it's got nothing to do with this be really clever. But and that takes away that initial reaction. [Dave:] Yeah. have to put something they're gonna have prejudices and [Chris:] Yeah that's right [Dave:] Er but we like say don't want to put everything in cos it would take you a while to analyze that but that's another thing you might want to put on. [Sally-ann:] How many questions do you think? [Dave:] I don't know I mean... I think if you had a double side of a sheet of A four that was well spaced out and stuff that would be [speaker001:] [sneeze] [Dave:] er you wouldn't want to make them You wouldn't particularly have more than a dozen or so would you? [Marilyn:] No. [Chris:] No. [Dave:] But I mean more or less so You'll probably get a feel for when you've got things. [Sally-ann:] yeah. [Dave:] I reckon your sort of timetable for doing this wants to be, early next week to meet to work out exactly what questions you are gonna do and mak make a questionnaire and perhaps later on in the week Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, start to ask some people Now on the Friday this time this we this time next week you c you can talk about some of your results in here and we'll discuss about anything that's gonna be problems we'll discuss how you're can write it up and how you want to display the statistics if [Chris:] Yeah. [Dave:] you've got some complicated ones. Er and then you can write it up sometime during week four and hand it in sort of Wednesday, Thursday week four would be quite good. [Marilyn:] Okay what Do we have to do a methodology project as well? [Dave:] I don't think you do [Sally-ann:] . [Dave:] or do you? [Marilyn:] To be in when? [Sally-ann:] By end of week four. [Chris:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] Three sides. [Chris:] Three sides. [Sally-ann:] It's not bad it's [speaker001:] Mm. [Sally-ann:] just a [Marilyn:] We're gonna have to be doing that at the same time. [Dave:] Well I mean I a asked Christine yesterday and she was saying that because this isn't a project any more it's actually supposed to in the end of week three. But you know I think if I say to her hand it in week four then [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] she won't mind so push past week four she might [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] we could do the first bits and about an hour really, this weekend not at work or anything. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] No cos we've we've got the first two bits, we've got the rational for the experiment and the method [Chris:] What do we have to do? [Sally-ann:] We just have to write one side on the rational and one side on the method and the third side's on the results. But I mean we don't know h how long [Marilyn:] We haven't got eight [Sally-ann:] So we can do the first two. No he's gonna give us the other results. [Marilyn:] Erm. [Sally-ann:] We can do the first two and then [Chris:] two [Sally-ann:] It's on that Were you there the other day when we got that sheet? [Marilyn:] Yeah is on there? [Sally-ann:] Yeah it's all [Marilyn:] Okay. [Sally-ann:] on there. [Marilyn:] Oh good okay. [Sally-ann:] But why do we do the experiment then? [Chris:] [LAUGHTER] [Marilyn:] Oh I dunno. [Dave:] Okay so we... You're really gonna have to sort of do [Marilyn:] Meet on Monday [Sally-ann:] Monday. [Dave:] So. So if next week c you can at least of started [Chris:] three hours a week [Dave:] to the questionnaire er but we definitely have done finish finished making the questionnaire I mean gonna have to [Chris:] Well yeah cos we want to get out and distribute it and get it back. [Dave:] Yeah. [Marilyn:] can do it on Monday and we can People will have until Friday then to ask. [Chris:] Yeah. [Sally-ann:] Yeah.... Yeah we'll do it on Monday. [Chris:] What have we got? [Marilyn:] Well I've got three hours from straight from nine fifteen in the morning so I'd like [LAUGHTER] a bit of a break actually after that []. [Chris:] No sorry. [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] afternoon. [Marilyn:] Oh. [Sally-ann:] I've got one free in the afternoon so [Marilyn:] I've got a three [Chris:] Yeah I have [Marilyn:] fifteen as well. I've got. [Chris:] Oh [Sally-ann:] Only take an hour or so won't it anyway? [Marilyn:] Yeah. [Dave:] Okay if you want any help or anything I should be around for [Marilyn:] Okay. [Dave:] next week so catch me if you want anything. [Marilyn:] Got anything together? [Sally-ann:] We've got Principles of Linguistics. [Marilyn:] Principles at nine fifteen though I've got to one [Chris:] Oh yeah. [Sally-ann:] Mm I've got English and then I've got the afternoon [Marilyn:] I can do at two fifteen if you like. [Chris:] Yeah I think I can do two fifteen. [Sally-ann:] I think I might be able to [Marilyn:] is two fifteen okay? [Sally-ann:] two fifteen [Chris:] She said two fifteen [Marilyn:] Let's do lunch. [Chris:] here. [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] [LAUGHTER] [Sally-ann:] Right a a t Here? [Marilyn:] Okay two fifteen yeah. [Chris:] I'll probably forget you'll probably come and get me. [Marilyn:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Okay let's hold it there. [Chris:] Yeah [Dave:] Right, cheers. See you next week or before then. [Sally-ann:] Yeah. [tape change]

[speaker001:] Okay would you like to start then? [Dave:] Right has everyone had a chance to look at some stuff since last time? Much.... Okay Sally-Ann, have you had a chance to look at some of the things which we're gonna do today as well? [Scott:] I haven't had a look at any books at all but, erm I was worried about. [Dave:] Okay so do you want to run us through some of the things that we haven't really discussed in detail of what we're gonna talk about in here today, specifically have we, I mean I thought something along the lines of er... the nature and extent of sexual variations in English, or any other language you want. So in what way can it differ Men and women differ in conversation? and you can make it specific you can just discuss it and make very specific interruptions or turn-taking if you want. On the other hand you could talk about things in general what the different aspects in the speech are [speaker001:] being in other languages as well. Is this [Dave:] yeah I mean okay cover the languages to show how they did it properly, so if there is something else you want to bring in then that would be good. But I suppose it would mainly worthwhile concentrating on English, because that's where most of the data's from. Er I've got some notes here which I can go through wouldn't actually be necessary but... When Sally-Ann's going through her notes if anyone else would like raise anything which backs it up or disagrees with it or whatever then, you know please you know butt in and say whatever think might might be relevant at the time.... [speaker001:] have you stopped the erm the [speaker004:] The don't before Easter though. [speaker001:] What? [Dave:] I'm not quite sure when the official handing in date for this essay is, because of the fact that some essays have overrun from last term. I suppose that really, probably is Friday week three but, I don't suppose it has to be.... Which reminds me. Have I got your last essay in yet or not? [speaker001:] I'm a little bit confused there and I can't get it out. [Dave:] Okay. [speaker001:] Honest. [Dave:] Okay. Well like I say I'll I'll mark the rest of them when I've got them all in. I can't really mark then till I don I don't want to mark them until I've got them all in cos otherwise it's not really fair... so hopefully next week sometime. [speaker001:] I this morning, I've been running around and I can't get it out. [Dave:] What is it on WordPerfect? [speaker001:] Hm. I keep getting and things like that. [Dave:] Oh maybe could go to the advisory after I think they're open till five. [speaker001:] Mm. [Dave:] If you go there afterwards and what they say. Er right okay then. [Scott:] Right erm these notes are sort of based on a lecture that I went to when I was in sixth form erm and the theme for it is, Men And Women, Do We Speak The Same Language? Erm so first of all sounds and pronunciation. Er men tend to have a lower pitch on the whole, erm th they're louder and the's due to their physiological differences, erm Jacqueline once said that, Men try to talk bigger than they are whereas women talk as though they're smaller. Erm it's been shown that women strive for a pronunciations and and sort of go more towards the. Erm some women tend to have more pitch variation and they're more emotional so they're more likely to use encouraging tones er which can sometimes be seen to be slightly patronizing, whereas boys think it's soppy to be emotional or expressive way, so that if you're in school and you're asking people to read out in class, erm a girl would be more likely to be more expressive, whereas a boy would be a little bit more monotonous, and just sort of read it out and not put any emotion into it. And go to words of meaning, erm and the descriptions of colours where men are more likely to say purple whereas women would describe it as aubergine or plum and go into more detail about the shading than the colour. Then erm names, babies I if a baby's christened Timothy er it gets called Timmy or Nicholas gets called Nicky, which sort of ties in with the biscuits being called bickie and horsie and doggie and all this sort of ee things that you say to babies. But as soon as the n the kid Nicky hits teenage years then he wants to be called Nick, whereas if the girl's been christened Nicola and she's called Nicky through her childhood, when she hits teens she's still called Nicky. So girls don't seem to mind the ee thing whereas the the boys do. Erm also if you look at entertainment, like James Saville calls himself Jimmy Saville, Terence Wogan is Terry Wogan, so but then you look at people like Charlie Chaplin, when he was doing his comedian role he was c he called himself Charlie Chaplin, and when he's directing films he called himself Charles Chaplin, so maybe it's all like a bit of a serious thing. So maybe that implies that when do the kids have got that ee ending. Then we go to the taboo language and if you talk about when you go to the toilet, if you Everybody excuses themselves to leave and that's both men and women and then somehow you have to say where you're going, so the women are more likely to use the polite sort of euphemistic kinds of things like they'd say toilet or loo, whereas the men are more likely to say bog. And they actually say what they do when they get there. Oh, younger men are more likely to use coarser tones and be more explicit erm although they wouldn't use those sort terms to their father or elder men, and the women are more likely to use euphemisms like Spend a penny, Powder your nose and things like that. And then we go to grammar. Women tend to use more standard forms er and men are more likely to use regional dialect forms. So that shows women are more status conscious and men are more Maybe could be more concerned with their macho image, and they associate the non-standard with macho image. Erm there is a study where they looked into erm men in the workforce and women and in the workforce and er if men worked together in factories it sort of reinforces their speech patterns, their workmates are reinforcing their speech pattern so they're more likely to use non- standard. And then there was a study into and area of Belfast where most of the men were unemployed and it was the women who were going out to work in the factory and it was found to be the other way round, and the women spoke more of a non-standard than the men did when the men were staying at home. It was the women going out to work. Then we get use and interaction. Women tend to use more questions which sort of softens the effect of what they're saying, so they'll say things like, There we go and the men say things like, Let's go. Erm women are more likely to use the words such as may, might, possibly, perhaps which seem to be a little less forceful. In turn-taking men have be shown to interrupt women more than they interrupt other men, er and then there's the use of mm. Erm it's been shown that men seem to er connect the word mm with I agree, that's what they use it to mean whereas the women tend to use mm as I understand. Erm so where do these differences come from? They come from the way socializes children er during the early school years, boys and girls tend to have different activity, the boys in the groups Are in groups outdoors and the girls and in tos and fros and they're sharing their little secrets and being loyal to each other and whispering away in little corners. So that women aren't taken seriously. So do we speak the same language? Yes, but with differences and we don't always the same message. And that's that. [Dave:] Okay, right. Has anyone got any other things to add to that? [speaker001:] No. There was a when we were talking about erm how er women sit there and chatter, it's sort of trivial. Said to be trivial erm which meant it isn't erm book says that erm cos women talk about things like erm children and husband and things, [Dave:] Mhm [speaker001:] whereas men talk about cars and stuff like that. And that's it's not true at all it's just different it considered. [Dave:] Right, and we've got part of this linked in with the stuff you might have done on Sapir-Wharf Hypothesis in the sense that er people talk about different things because they might be relevant to their actual lives. [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] Er and of course if you're in one group, you might think that something's trivial and you might denigrate another a group for talking about those things, when in fact that group sees it as an important talk about it might see the thing that the other group hold dear to talk about as something trivial, and to denigrate. So yeah, I mean that's definitely something that that comes into it.... Erm what sort of d differences are there in conversational styles? I mean it's a thing you might want to talk think about or you night have read about, things like interjections and er interruptions and overlapping.... [Lindsay:] and how erm men tend to ignore them, they're like they're not interested and not going to pay any attention. [Dave:] Right, do you want to explain that a bit more, about [Lindsay:] Well things that they the actually say anything which is sort of a sign that you listening, understanding but if they delay it, it's say it 's the women that pauses, wanting some sort of suddenly realizes [Dave:] Right.... [speaker004:] that women uses use minimal responses anyway, then then you know like all males speak a male didn't use minimal responses so it wouldn't be that they interruptions listening necessarily it would just be that wouldn't expect to have to. [Scott:] Yeah, right yeah. [speaker004:] Women use women use minim minimal responses but when men use them it quite often delay. [Dave:] I mean one thing that's mentioned before is about tag questions, which is where you put on question to the end of your sentence, as in Oh don't you agree or Isn't it or you know you know the sort of thing I mean. Er now I mean One thing that a lot of the literature says is that this might indicate a power, and another thing that the literature says [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] is that it tends to be women who do more of it. [speaker001:] It does, and say that erm you say that [Dave:] Okay. [speaker001:] but I can't remember [Dave:] This is one of the things that some studies have shown it to be the case, other studies haven't.... One thing that might be relevant to this is the fact that er one study came up with two different types of tag question, they call the two different tabs, aka tag question Modal tags and Effective tags. Now modal tag is one for seeking agreement whereas an effective tag is one that shows concern to the addressee and according to this study, if you looked and the sheer number of tags, women did use more tags than men, but in actual fact women used a higher proportion of the effective tags than men did. Women used seventy five percent effective tags and twenty five percent modal tags, so in general their tags were to show concern rather than to actual seek agreement, so it wasn't showing a lack of power according to this study. Whereas the men had sixty percent effective tags and forty percent modal which is still the same direction but to a lesser extent. Which shows that perhaps a misindica In this situation perhaps the men are seeking agreement rather than the women are, because the women seem to be doing it to actually show concern, rather than to seek agreement, which doesn't Turns a lot of the traditional thing about tag questions on it head. [speaker001:] pointed out how tag questions there's only certain structures you can put them in, that were going to direct it rather than proper questions say someone who's asking all proper questions, is he going to use as many tag questions anyway? [Dave:] Mhm. [speaker001:] and that sort of the [Dave:] that's something else which you might find, a lot of the time in er literature about interaction with children, you might find that er where parents are asking their children to do something, like if they're playing a game, you might find some You'll find that mothers and fathers talk differently to sons and daughters er so you start off with a direct ac action like Put that one there, if they're playing lego or something, straight prom Put that on there down to er Wouldn't it be a good idea to put that on there down to Could you put that on there or Let's put it on there. And you find more or more or less forceful ways of of giving directives, and one way of making some things perhaps a bit less forceful is to put a tag question on cos it's sort of adding a sort of pleading note on to it, to ask somebody to do it, I think.... Has anyone read anything about turn-taking in conversation? [Rebecca:] Yes. [Dave:] And how that works. [Rebecca:] sort of there's a model, a conversational model and if it if it's if it's conversation is following a model then it's It means that it's running smoothly [Dave:] Mhm. [Rebecca:] and you erm you know your next big and the mean a signals as to whether or not it sort of the floor's being offered. [Dave:] Mhm. [Rebecca:] And you've just go to to generally in single sex conversation it follows the model. Quite often erm when it's men and women speaking the men will interrupt a little more erm which makes the women fall silent. Whereas women hardly ever overlapped [Dave:] Mhm okay. So in the two things that can happen in conversation to to give it To make it stop running smoothly are overlapping and interruption and like some of them are quite difficult to tell apart but usually it's If you're transcribing stuff it's fairly obvious. What's Can you remember what the point in a conversation is where a speaker has a chance to to become a new speaker? Like it's it's [Scott:] T R P [speaker004:] transition relevance point? [Dave:] Yeah that's the thing I was thinking of the T R P like you say the transition relevance point. I mean that is like a point in the conversation where a change in turn-taking could ha potentially happen. Now when you get to a T R P what are the three things that can happen? I don't know if any of the li any of the stuff you read mentioned this or not. [Scott:] Erm the the somebody speaking includes erm address someone to make it really obvious who the next speaker's going to be. [Dave:] Mhm. [Scott:] Or it you leave it open and one of the other speakers in the More than One or more of the other speakers in the conversation could decide to start to talking, or no one could erm start talking the present speaker at the moment gets another chance to carry on. [Dave:] Okay that's right, yeah.... Okay has anybody else got anything more on that on that subject?... if we go back for a bit and just go back to the [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] idea of the theory, which is something that probably should have come at the beginning but it doesn't matter too much. And like there are two different sort of schools of thought about men and women's conversation. Er one is like the traditional school of though and the other one is like the feminist way of looking at things. Er just to run through what the two... what the two schools sort of think it will be fair to say that the traditional school thinks as follows. Er in terms of syntax and pronunciation, women were always thought of as being more careful than men, er a lot of dialectologists in the past considered women to be very conservative in their speech, they ascribed conservatism to them. Er men and women were always thought to use different specialist vocabularies, that's something else that was said. Er women were also said to be polite, diffident, verbose and deferential, which [speaker001:] What all of those? [Dave:] Mhm. [speaker001:] polite and deferential. [Dave:] Verbose as in when they actually said things, they they did a lot of talking. I'm not saying this is actually correct but this is the traditional view. [speaker001:] Okay. [Dave:] Except that women were deferential to other speakers they would let they would they were they would allow themselves to be walked over in conversation but at the same time you had this stereotype of women who talked too much. I'm not saying that the same person thought of these two things at once, but [speaker001:] Okay. [Dave:] These are these are things which were all said. Er said in in an article that women used empty language. That was a phrase he used. So what so traditional schools Thought that women did a lot of Recognized they thought that women did a lot of talking but that a lot of it wasn't really any use. Yeah that that was just the ideas it had. Whereas men talked more for function. Er and then to contrast this you've got like the feminist view er well it's a just reconstruct a lot of these ideas instead of saying that women's talk was diffident they said it was more considerate, and so the idea that quite often A lot of the features that are in this conversation aren't because women want to be deferential to the men they're talking to, it's that they actually want to show some consideration to to the turn-taking or the conversational style that's going on. Er in actual fact the speech styles aren't really comparable which is why you sort of get these contradictions. Er you fi What the feminist the schools says that a lot of languages minimize and trivialize interests and achievements of women and denigrate them by the way in which they use language and the way in which they talk about things. Er and similarly the syntax of languages are often said to be oppressive of women, a lot of the way that language is structured and a lot of the words that you get in a language, that's another thing that's said. there's one quite sort of ground breaking paper that obviously there's a lot in that people don't agree with but it was quite an important paper in terms of er in terms of feminist linguistics and feminism in general. It came out o it came out in nineteen seventy five. And that was by a women called Robin Lakehoff and she wrote a paper called l language and woman's place. Er the things that she said were that women used more hedges, such as I think er hedges are sort of things that get put into the conversation if al allegedly if somebody wants to give the impression that they're not quite sure, and they wouldn't w You know like I wouldn't want to say it for sure but I think that. Er and then similarly to that they er were said to seek agreement by Lakehoff she said they used more questions and more tag questions. She said, as you said, they s she said they used less swearing and more please and thank yous. And also as you said, the thing with colours, they... were said to perhaps use less basic colour terms, so if some men were shown a bluey-green some men would say and some would say whereas a women allegedly would say turquoise or whatever. Er Now a lot of things in Lakehoff's paper perhaps people have disagreed with since then such as the things about tag questions and hedges erm I mean some studies have said that if you look at the actual modality of tag questions, like we said before, the actual function of it [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] that isn't the case. But still it's an important paper that sort of broke away from a lot of the traditional thinking and led towards a lot more feminist stuff. I mean you c you can't really read wh a book on this list about women's and men, s language without finding the reference to Lakehoff in the back somewhere. [speaker001:] Did she actually do research? [Dave:] Er a lot A lot of hers was intuition yeah, er [Rebecca:] some students were given shown some s some utterances [Dave:] Mhm. [Rebecca:] and they had to say which were said by men and which were said by women, and erm most of the ones with tag questions were said by women [Dave:] Right [Rebecca:] this women says that all [Dave:] Yes I mean in a sense that just sort of shows that a lot of people would agree with Lakehoff in the sense that they think that women use a lot of tag questions and have that speech style, erm I mean like we've been able to see, and what we can say is that men and women's language is different er and it's even possible to say in what way it's different, but the difficulty becomes when we actually want to say why those differences are. I mean some people say it diffidence some people say it's considerate so you have to then try and go a bit further beyond the actual differences to find out what the reasons behind them are. You also find different cultures have different ways of having men and women's language. Er some of the things which I won't go into in detail but a short list of some of the things which do differ among languages are interjections, particles, personal pronouns, titles, kinship terms, er nouns, verbs, noun multipliers, pronunciation. Er there's a book, which I don't think is on your list but it might be called By Thorn and Henley er which might be worth looking at. That's like full of about dozen or so papers each one I think, if it's the book I'm thinking of, is about a different community or a different language er so you might find some information about Samoa where there's a different societal hierarchical structure. Er children aren't brought up in the same maternal way as they are in in this country, and many other countries. Er similarly in I'think it's Japanese you find that men and women use different for certain things, er not because not because of terms of style just because they are the correct words to use if you are a man or if you are a women. Er lots of languages have very complex kinship terms where in English they're fairly simple, er I mean someone who is one of your parents brothers is going to be an uncle, no matter what. Whereas other communities will have father's brother and mother's brother and other ones still will then have different words depending on whether you're male or female. Er the same things happens with nouns and verbs and other things and in Ja Japanese again I think you find that the same words are pronounced differently. Er again I think you can find some information on that in Thorn and Henley. Right, er another situation where there's men and women differences is in multilingual communities, er you find that men and women's attitudes to varieties or language varieties or languages can carry so some men will try and avoid using one of their languages because they see it as a low prestige variety whereas some women will use it because for them it's a high prestige variety. Likewise you might find that switching and mixing will change according to status of the languages. Er there's another book which is similar to the other one in the sense that it made up of some papers by Phillips, Steel and Tants and that has some information about Mexicano in it, er and you find that some people er were giving Mexican language a low... a low prestige rate whereas other group in the community were doing the opposite and giving a high prestige rate or certainly a less low one, er in favour of spanish a lot of the Because it was in I think it's in South America I guess, er you find that a lot of the locals were switching to spanish because it was coming the dominant language er because of societal pressures and constraints and so on. Er but a part of the community were trying to keep Mexicano and there's men and women differences in that. [speaker007:] There's a Caribbean island and apparently they just because The men their sort of ancestors invaded the island, all the men and you know they [Dave:] Mhm. [speaker007:] And then they kept their language kept the language. [Dave:] Right. Okay did anybody get a chance to read the paper which was about conversation?... [Rebecca:] I just wondered what what that came up with as it's conclusion. [Dave:] W well it might be worth having a read of that. Er okay what else? Has anybody got any that I haven't haven't really covered yet?... [speaker001:] [cough]... [Dave:] Mhm. [Rebecca:] and how erm but it probably got a little to do with the way groups actually organize. Whereas the boys are more but the tend to give more. [Dave:] Right. [Rebecca:] But the girls tend more equal responsibility and not. [Dave:] What differences do you f I mean have you got any specific examples there or? [Rebecca:] No... Er the girls sort of say things like perhaps ask her, Do you have any We could get on a bit more so they don't include themselves in what they're going to do. Whereas the boys Give me the pie Get off my steps or something [Dave:] Mm. Right. [Scott:] Is there something about where one girl was using what would be boys language when [speaker001:] Yeah. [Scott:] someone else came round to her house she was like you know get off my yard [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah, Yeah, so girls are perfectly capable of using those when need be [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Yeah, I mean I The important thing is I think the children do recognize the differences, not that they don't notice the differences, because they're Like you say they're capable of using the other if it if it suits them. Er I mean that goes back again to the articles which you might have about the way that parents talk to their children, and you quite often find that then very very quickly the children grow up speaking in a same way as the parent of that sex talked to the them. So if a child gets spoken to in a fairly direct way by imagine a female child by her father and the same female child gets spoken to in a not so direct way be her mother, then even of this The child is likely to both version, she'll grow up using female variety because she's she can affiliate herself with her mother and I mean she knows that is the variety she's expected to use. [speaker001:] I think can't really remember I don't know how father would use different language he's talking to his son or daughter. [Dave:] Yeah that's true as well. Er it sort of goes in four ways I mean the fathers talk more directly than the mothers whether or not it's a boy or a girl they're talking to. But they do talk more directly to boys than girls, so it's sort of graded in that way.... Okay who wanted to talk briefly about what people are going to write about? Cos we haven't really sort of said anything. Has anyone got any I mean I you don't all need to write about the same thing or anything. Er does everyone want to do a general essay or do people want to do a s a specific thing?... [Rebecca:] General essays can turn into just regurgitating from the. [Dave:] Okay so is there anything you've read that you all would want to concentrate on? [Rebecca:] Erm Well not that I've come across yet I'd rather do something that's getting the facts and then giving examples. [Dave:] Mhm. [Rebecca:] I want top do something on what what you noticed about and what you've got [Dave:] Right. Right. Er let me think. I'll just go and find out when the due date for this essay is, and then Cos if it is the end of week three then I'll I'll say o I'll say it can be in in week four sometime. But if it's due in when the project originally was which was week five, then that [speaker001:] [cough] [Dave:] gives you a bit more time to decide exactly what you want to talk about cos if... if it has go to be in week three or week four, then we really sort of like decide now what you're going to write about so that n Cos next week is gonna be our last meeting on this topic, so you really want to sort of give a bit of a presentation on what you're going to say. Yeah I want everyone to do like five or ten minutes next week on what they're gonna write. Okay I 'll just go and find out. [speaker004:] What are they supposed to be doing by the way? [speaker001:] What happens to the like project? [Rebecca:] It got cancelled. [speaker007:] Cancelled [speaker004:] It got cancelled? Oh right, didn't hear that then. [LAUGHTER] There Oh that's why we're not doing it any more, so what do we have to do instead of having to do an essay? [Rebecca:] Just an essay. [speaker004:] Oh, they decided not to give us quite so much work? [Rebecca:] Mm. [speaker004:] Oh right. So we Is that why the [speaker001:] Is that what we're meant to be doing this term, tutorials? [Scott:] Think so I don't [speaker004:] When do our tutorials stop? I'm really confused. [Rebecca:] We've got two more tutorials? [speaker004:] What Oh yeah, week three and week four, and [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] I'm so confused about what's going on. I think I must be not looking at the list or not reading half the stuff. The first Who put dictation and and I was going, What? Where did it say that? I shan't find the le You know the letter we got sent in the holidays? [Scott:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Well mine got sent home and I wasn't there I was here. [Lindsay:] Oh that's ridiculous Sarah, yeah [speaker004:] So So I don't know. I I mean I've got I've read it once and and now I've lost it [speaker007:] and it might even still be at home but I don't know where it is, I can't find. So I can't remember what it said in it. [speaker004:] Ooh I don't know. my supervisor doesn't know anything about writing an outline. [Lindsay:] Yeah has that got to be in tomorrow? [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rebecca:] Got to do a marathon tomorrow. [speaker004:] Why? [speaker007:] Cos he's a runner. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Oh excellent,? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Rebecca:] put the history of phonetics [speaker004:] Yeah. [Rebecca:] so little blue brochure and [speaker007:] This is the study of papers written in the fifteenth century or something [speaker004:] History of phonetics? I'm sorry if you're interested in this then go for it. You need a What're you doing for yours then? [Scott:] I'm I'm I'm a bit confused. [Lindsay:] Your doing what? Historical linguistics? Your mad! [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] What is it though, what's historical linguistics? Is it like what we do in Old English or not? Cos that [Rebecca:] Yeah it is. [speaker004:] That sounds excellent. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Right it's due in week three I think. [speaker007:] Hurray. [Dave:] Er but [LAUGHTER] as far as I'm concerned if it comes in in week four, that's fair enough, but things after that then they start to get a bit upset [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] But I sa I said to Chris, When is it? She said, Week three. Er and I said, Give or take a few days, and she said, Yeah. So if it's inside week four then that will quite reasonable, does that sound okay? Okay has anyone had a think about what they want to do? I mean does anybody else know? [Rebecca:] sort of everything we've had so far's been pretty general. [Dave:] Okay if any of you wanted to you could always go out some tape recorder and people have a listen to it.... But obviously if you're going to do that you'll have to do it during next week some time... On the other hand I could give you a list of five topics and you could choose one.... Yeah Oh yeah I mean there's five five things five things in men or women's conversation t to do and essay about. Say one about interrupting, one about topics, and one about perhaps interaction with children, one about er [whispering] what []... Or you could even I mean if I did er I did a list of that you could even do the same one, you wouldn't have to do one each.... [Lindsay:] You know you got your erm tag questions? [Dave:] Yeah. [Lindsay:] might not be one of the question in it as tag questions could be [Dave:] Oh yeah. [Lindsay:] specific. [Dave:] Okay er... There's one title I've got written down here which I don't know if anyone's interested in. [reading] Evaluate the claim that women are more d ob Evaluate the claim that women are more observant of the prestige norms in their speech than men are. [] Does anyone fancy that? Let's If I write down... Okay the which I've just suddenly thought of were er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] turn-taking and interruptions and overlap and tags and tag questions, topic selection and interaction with children, which I think I just mentioned make sure you've got them down so we can forget them. Er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] What? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] What? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] What have I done? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dave:] Oh you weren't supposed to be able to read it. [speaker007:] No, we can read it but it's... It's just happened a lot this week. [Dave:] Er so yeah, you want to do some questioney tag things? [Scott:] Yeah. [Dave:] Okay, I mean just ignore that one, forget I wrote it. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Rebecca:] I mean on something like interruptions there's only so much you can say. [Dave:] Er yeah, which is why may be general one might be more useful dependi it depends how much [Rebecca:] Whereas if you do interaction of children you can do it here, [Dave:] Mhm. Oh yeah I mean if you wanted to also link that with multicultural situation or or cross cultural or comparing it with other ones I mean that's no problem. [Rebecca:] language of the different to [Dave:] Okay. [Rebecca:] certain dialectic language. [Dave:] Yeah well if you want to that then that's fine as well, I mean that... Tell you what, the best thing then is can everyone put a note in my pigeon hole by Monday in other words, you've got the weekend to decide for definite. Gives us just like a provisional title of what the essay will be, on what your essay will be. Is that alright, cos then you've gone away with any ideas you've got from now which is probably none, er and then it also means that I don't have to spend next week worrying in case we get to Friday and Thursday and you're still not sure what you're doing. Is that alright? Okay if you just sort of like think of a vague title which sums up what the things are which you want to cover in the essay and if you get it to me by Monday then that that'll be quite good.... [Rebecca:] You know about questions, is it questions like sort of [Dave:] Well tag questions and er and questions in their own rights which i I supposed seeking agreement is the idea. Or with anything which is vaguely connected with that I mean that just sort of a coverall term for it. [speaker001:] [cough] excuse me.... [Dave:] Okay so does everyone, think they'll gonna be able to think of something over the weekend? Okay and then if next week somet If next week everyone can have Okay w I think what you need to do f for next Thursday is For Monday to give me what you're going to do and then between Monday and Thursday, try and read anything you can about that topic. I mean you could forget this list that I gave th b that gave you, unless there's anything on it that is still relevant, but find the things yourself on that topic so that on Thursday Next Thursday you can each spend ten minutes talking about things which you've read in your topic specifically. And if anyone chooses the same topic as somebody else then you can do it together or not together or which ever. but if that can be a general idea for next week.... Okay. Is everyone okay about that?... [Rebecca:] book [Dave:] Er [Rebecca:] where you where you [Dave:] Which one? [Rebecca:] On on your chapter six and nine, do you know what chapter nine? [Dave:] Er. Not off the top of my head, I can't remember. Was that was that theory? Was it that? I can't remember what the off the top of my head, no. [Rebecca:] chapter six is,. [Dave:] Right, er [Scott:] [reading] as questions lead to shouting and then crawling back to his [] Then a little bit about language and an experiment that they did. [Dave:] Right, sounds like there's a bit on topics in there so it might be worth having a look at anyway.... [recording ends]

[speaker001:] So you've got, you know, that sheet. Right. [Sue:] Yes [Allan:] So there's there's s six five. Right number five is actually at the bottom of the [Sue:] Yeah [Allan:] pile you've got there. [Liz:] Sorry can I bring you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Yes please.... Thank you. That five there? [Allan:] That's right. [Sue:] So that go that goes there then really does it? [Allan:] No. [Cynthia:] That five there [Allan:] There's another five [Cynthia:] five. [Allan:] No there's another five. [Sue:] This one. [Cynthia:] No not that five. [Sue:] For it's got forty seven at the bottom, is that the one, this one? [Allan:] That five. [Sue:] Right.... That goes? [Allan:] Under the There yeah. [Sue:] Right got it [LAUGHTER]. [Cynthia:] You're not gonna say anything are you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Let it be noted that J, head of was actually in the room at the time of this meeting. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Right. From what I can recall from last time we met, the purpose of the meeting is to actually pick up on the training program. And review where we got last time, and to plan ahead erm for the future. It's also part of the investing in people process, of putting together a flexible training plan which is one of our action targets, erm from that. Now what I've actually also got on the photocopy, and I think I've even got less sheets than than for this one I think I've only got three booklets. It's part of the the I I P I actually picked up, rather irritatingly retrospectively, erm some things from the tech, erm that actually take me through the various stages of I I P. So that erm the self assessment, erm number one, How to plan for the future, is just a business planning aspect of I I P. Three is the training programme, which I'll go to the photocopier in a minute. Four is the appraisal section. And five's evaluation. So I had a quick look at them. Erm and they look quite good, but irritatingly I could have done with them, after the first workshop. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] No but how much do you think they cost? [Sue:] A fortune I expect. [Allan:] How much do you think? [Cynthia:] Three hundred pounds. [Sue:] More. [Cynthia:] A thousand pounds. [Allan:] More. [speaker001:] [breath] [Allan:] Eleven hundred quid apparently, just that. [Cynthia:] But we only [Liz:] Who's produced them? [Sue:] It's [Allan:] Erm the people who who our training consultant's just gone to I I I P L? [Cynthia:] Golly. [Allan:] Somebody anyway. And [Cynthia:] Oh Andrea Andrea [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Andrea. [Sue:] Have you got them insured? [Allan:] So I've got [Jayne:] She was staying with the tech wasn't she? Was she not? [Sue:] Er I think she was erm dithering a bit when we saw her wasn't she. [Allan:] If you give that s there's one there if you give me mine back, I'll give it to Ray. There's actually the self assessment brochure. Erm takes you through the er sort of background to I I P. So if you'd like to hang on to that. That'll sort of give you erm, where we should be at the minute. With this and talked about the rest of the the books. may as well er hang on to that and that. D don't lose them. [Liz:] Is this something, all organizations in North Yorkshire are getting. [Allan:] I'm not quite sure, I think most organizations have a certain amount of of sum of money if I can remember from the workshops. [Sue:] Other than [Cynthia:] Public sector. [Allan:] That's right. [Sue:] Yeah they get financed. [Liz:] Mm. [Allan:] But they've a they've given us that because we can't get any of the help. With the sort of the interpretation I took on it. Plus the fact we're in partnership with them, etcetera etcetera. So it was a bit of a [Sue:] But I mean even it obviously doesn't cost them over a thousand pounds to produce and i we wouldn't have bought it anyway, so in a sense it isn't they're not actually losing much by giving to us are they? [Allan:] Not really, but the irritating thing is, is looking at, [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] Erm I I only picked this up cos I went to the workshop on flexible training, and that happened to be there. She didn't even say, This is what it is. [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] Just as I walked out the door, there was that there, and I said, Oh what's this. So she said what it was, and then looking through it, it actually certainly we could have done with a fle I could have looked at the the flexible thing before we came to the meeting, because it [Sue:] Mhm. [Allan:] it actually really is a step by step guide to how to put a flexible training programme together. Erm for for I I P. Which as I say I've got on the photocopier at the minute, and er which want to look at [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] but it's quite interesting really. Erm take some time to to have a brief look at that. So the paper you've got in front of you from the last meeting then. The top two sheets are almost a summary, for all the staff that I never actually got sent out, but it has been to the staff consultative committee, who who gave it a nod. Without spotting the deliberate mistake, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] which was that four point one wasn't included in the papers that went to to staff consultative, which was the general list of things that we pulled out from the brainstorm last time. Erm to that point of view. [Sue:] And you've taken as well. [Allan:] nobody picked that up. Er. [Cynthia:] Well that list was. [Allan:] Yes because it's in the other list, the other papers [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] that went to C S N T. [Cynthia:] Ah right. [Allan:] In there. And e what I'd put on what I'd said to her Erm I think I'd put on here, you know,Re refer to section five on on of the brainstorm list, and she'd all she'd typed in is, Where is section five of the brainstorm list, I couldn't couldn't find. And I hadn't spotted it. Erm so that's b that's the list from there. [Jayne:] I want to know what, work with unemploye-ed, is. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Unemploye-ed. [Liz:] I taken one thing, I think there's one here Allan. [Allan:] Mhm. [Liz:] On that bit, is and I know it's gonna be included is er your training in European issues. [Allan:] That's for the information group. [Liz:] Yeah and I know you've you sent a note round about it as well didn't you? [Allan:] Yeah.... [Liz:] And She and She Sheila [Allan:] That's in response to Sheila's er persistence. [Liz:] I see. She was from that note if you have you sort of left it to her to organize the training? [Jayne:] Kevin also mentioned the other day, about group group work for E Os. Was that had we and I know we mentioned it when we met last time, but was that really we're including in E O work with the unemployed. [Sue:] Mhm. [Liz:] Mm and presentation skills. [Jayne:] Well it was all it was in with presentation skills. [Allan:] skills as well. [Liz:] Co cos Julie mentioned that again to me as well, for the training for work. E Os [Sue:] Yeah. [Liz:] doing group work. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Sue:] Yeah yeah.... [Allan:] . So... I mean I I was debating whether to actually send this out I might wait and see what happens. From today and whether or not we make much progress. But I might send this out just as a holding, a holding note anyway. Erm [Sue:] I think that would be a good idea so that [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] people know some sort of progress report isn't it really. [Allan:] Generally what's what's going on. That's right. [Cynthia:] I won I wonder about, on interviewing skills for all staff, [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] The interviewing course for careers officers isn't really strictly speaking, interviewing skills. I don't know whether it's worth putting it as a separate [Allan:] What do you want to call it? [Cynthia:] Just careers guidance. Cos it's about the whole, it's not just about interviewing, interviewing. It's sort of that and it's not really a skills course. I mean we c we can leave it like that but i if people then wanted to go [Allan:] Alright well tell me what you call it. [Cynthia:] Well you could put interviewing skills, that would be for employment officers wouldn't it then? [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] And then careers guidance I think covers it. And it's called enhanced careers guidance. [Allan:] I think I can live with that. [Cynthia:] Individual careers guidance actually. Which I suppose is [Sue:] Interviewing skills [LAUGHTER] [Cynthia:] But it's not I mean it is quite theoretical so it sort of represents it wrongly. [Allan:] So it's it's enhanced careers guidance. [Cynthia:] That's what it was called yeah.... [Allan:] For individuals. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Cynthia:] Do I I mean I don't know whether we'll keep the individuals on the next one, cos people did talk about group work. [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] The other thing is with employer legislation update, did we decide to do some training on that or did we decide that we would produce a handout? [Jayne:] Yeah we did talk about that. [Sue:] Or did we decide we'd do both?... [Allan:] I think didn't we say we'd cover it as part of an E O workshop. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Because that was the sort of [Sue:] Oh right. [Allan:] thing that was that was coming into [Sue:] Right ho. [Allan:] Okay. [Sue:] I know that the summaries of guidance is is in that list, and from the brief discussion we had at the careers officer's meeting this week about summaries of guidance, I know we're starting off the process by having representatives come to a meeting on the eleventh of May. But it's it's such a broad issue, that any opportunity we do get, to have a a broader discussion, for more individuals to contribute their or have their say, you know again on a workshop or something, I would very much support that. [Cynthia:] We had actually got that in for that September [Allan:] Mm, [Cynthia:] on, we got a date for that on the C Os day [Sue:] Workshop? [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Sue:] Oh good [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] To do [Sue:] Right that's fine then. [Cynthia:] But it was about i there were three things on the day, so it should be an hour and half a couple of hours. [Sue:] Yeah [Cynthia:] In September and then after that [Sue:] It's it it's more than sort of a ten minute slot in a staff meeting. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Sue:] You know to feed into a rep though [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Sue:] isn't it? [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] I try to think of the three things we'd identified for the for the fifteenth of September. Erm one was careers one was careers guidance agreements wasn't it, a review of that [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] I think, one was... summaries of guidance, [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] And I can't remember what the other one was. [Cynthia:] Was it an update on the. [Allan:] Mm don't know.... No it's I C G conference isn't it, the fifteenth of September? [Liz:] Is it? [Allan:] There won't be that many going though will there? To Plymouth. Do you reckon? [Liz:] Well She er who usually goes, Sheila, Jayne,.... [Jayne:] A Wednesday.... [Allan:] Well I've got I C G conference on the thirteenth to the fifteenth, but maybe it's er maybe it's just as Iris is away for [Jayne:] Oh I'm at Huddersfield University. [Liz:] It's usually on a starts the Friday till the Monday doesn't it [Allan:] Must be maybe it's just the boss is away, till the fifteenth. [Cynthia:] Oh I've got it here, evaluation. [Allan:] Oh right. [Cynthia:] Er careers guidance agreements and A G. [Allan:] Ah that's right we said would do it [Cynthia:] Yeah [Sue:] Well well that's actually written down here isn't it? [Allan:] Is it? [Sue:] Yeah. C O workshop, fourteenth and fifteenth of September, colon summaries of guidance [Allan:] Oh right Yeah. [Cynthia:] Yes. Yeah. [Sue:] I always thought you were. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Cynthia:] Well done Jayne. [Allan:] Well done Jayne. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Do you want me to play this to the lot on the way to Bournemouth next week? [Jayne:] I think you might have better things Oh do you? [Allan:] Right. Okay. Erm just updates on this, the business and financial management list, that's down here, are actually negotiating regionally erm to get twelve to fifteen grand off the management initiative for the region. To erm run some business and financial planning management courses. So Steve and myself are er have done a done a bid that we should know today whether or not it's going to the main group, and if it goes to the main group, there's a great chance it'll be accepted. If it doesn't go to the main group, it won't be and we may have to do something ourselves. [Jayne:] What do you mean the main group? [Allan:] Sorry there's a subgroup of the the national management initiative. [Jayne:] Right. [Allan:] Of looking at them and trying to do a bit of s sorting out. [Jayne:] Right. [Allan:] Erm and if they accept it, which includes Cathy, Nicky, erm, Jean, Linda, and the guy who's running it, who's name escapes me, or something like that. Erm he'll erm if they accept it it'll it'll stand a chance of getting them to the main group. So we should know that, but whether it'll allow, how many of us it'll allow to go on it I don't know. Erm [Cynthia:] Cos there'll only be so many from each authority I suppose [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] in the region. [Allan:] Erm okay? [Sue:] But it it might not be the sort of thing where numbers need to be, I mean [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] it's not gonna be the sort of thing you need to go into small groups and and discuss [Cynthia:] No. [Sue:] in a sense is it. It's more the sort of erm, lecture style delivery I'd have thought would be appropriate so [Cynthia:] Mm. [Sue:] you it may be reasonable. [Liz:] Actually one other thing that that isn't done, but then I know it's gonna be done on divisional basis, is the appraisal training. You know this [Allan:] Appraisal interviews, things. Well appraisal training. [Liz:] Which you know I know [Allan:] Mm. [Liz:] Harrogate have they've done theirs. [Allan:] Mm. [Liz:] But I don't think anybody else has. [Sue:] I'm not gonna do it like that because, if I train everybody, some people might be trained and it's a y a years before they're appraised. I'm gonna do it in small groups, as we get to people. [Liz:] So you're still gonna do that sort of three hour training [Sue:] I don I don't know if it'll be three hours I mean ideally I know it should be it just depends how we we can fit it in. But that's what I'm gonna try to do. Maybe with groups of us as small as sort of six to ten. Cos otherwise people'll have it so far in advance of their appraisal. And I don't think that's appropriate. [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] So you see there'll be within the division, erm well five of us appraising. So we'll all identify, the next two people we're going to appraise, and perhaps get that te group of ten together you see [Liz:] Right. [Sue:] and then that will take us for a period of about probably three months cos we're saying we'll done one at least every six weeks. [Liz:] Well perhaps we could E T and and f we could fit into that. [Jayne:] I was gonna ask Sue if can I [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] sort of fit the adult careers office into that? [Sue:] Yeah. [Jayne:] When when when are you gonna be starting? [Sue:] I don't know. Soon because we just We've nearly finish I've nearly finished doing peop Well Bill's still got to do Diane, I've got to do Cath and then we're ready to start. [Jayne:] I've got a appraisal. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Should we include our ones in that then? Our [Sue:] Well we did decide [Cynthia:] Did we? [Sue:] Yeah [Liz:] Mm. [Sue:] We had some discussion at somewhere, that we decided that erm to include them in the divisional training, Yeah. [Cynthia:] Right. [Sue:] If you could Cynthia. Otherwise I'll I'll organize something. [Jayne:] Can I have a piece of paper? [Cynthia:] But they will but they will be appraised by, who will appraise them then? [Sue:] Well if it it'll be Julie, Neil or Alison. [Cynthia:] Right. [Jayne:] Just one? [speaker001:] ... [Cynthia:] Were any of the adult careers officers including the Harrogate one?... actually fitting them in you see. [Sue:] I c er I can't remember. [Cynthia:] No. [Liz:] Er Deborah did a sheet with everybody on, who was going to be appraising who. But I can't think, what she said about the adult team. [Cynthia:] I mean the b with the training but I mean [Liz:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] they weren't [Liz:] Well I mean she No I don't know no. But I imagine it'll all be people on that list who were involved in training, I can't remember. [Sue:] Cos if it was as long as three hours, then I'd expect Julie would have had to program them in for it wouldn't she. [Liz:] Mm. [Cynthia:] Although I did ask Deborah to include. [Sue:] Oh well perhaps she did then. I'm sure she would. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] Okay? Anything else that's missing? [cough] Can I just go over the page onto the number six, that says what we've already done. Where it's already got A C G just after, is that the C O C T one, Jayne or just a careers officer one? [Liz:] That's just careers officers. There's a separate one for career's teachers. If you remember it means [Allan:] Yeah. [Liz:] paper. [Allan:] I haven't seen anything sent out about that careers [Liz:] I've got it with me. [Allan:] teacher one. Has it gone now? [Liz:] Oh the caree [Allan:] Has i has Jim sent it out do you know? [Liz:] I don't know, I sent in to him. [Allan:] Yeah I know you said. Cos I haven't done anything with it, cos you said you'd send it him, and I couldn't decide whether I was supposed to send it ahead or he was. [Liz:] No it was going in the book. He said it was going in the level two book. [Allan:] Ah Right. [Liz:] I've got the information about the C Os one, today. So you [Allan:] Right. [Liz:] can send it out. [Allan:] Right okay. Erm [Sue:] We're seeing Jim a week on Tuesday aren't we? [Allan:] Well we were. [Sue:] Oh. [Allan:] Unless we can shift it up here. Because I know have to go to Dorothy 's provincial council. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Regraded, as the expert witness. [speaker001:] [cough] [Allan:] Let's let's get Cath up. Let's get Cath up and erm we'll er [Sue:] Where did you think it was then, Allen, that meeting? [Allan:] York. [Sue:] Oh did you? [LAUGHTER] Oh right. [] if that had've been Cath, that would have been a real turn up for me wouldn't it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Can I borrow a tap a minute,. Okay, smashing. Thanks.... [Liz:] ... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] You don't know the trouble we've had actually getting this. This coffee. [Jayne:] I though the Bird's Eye coffee. [Allan:] I think it broke the filter. Morning Cath. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Morning. [Liz:] Morning. [Allan:] Liz has got some stuff for you. [Liz:] Hang on. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Liz:] That's what I'm just looking for, hang on.... [Allan:] One of the things Cath's working on, for us, is the training records system. Erm h how's that getting on Cath? Training records? [speaker001:] Erm halfway. [Allan:] Which half? The top half or the bottom half? [speaker001:] Well er [LAUGHTER] I don't like to say, I don't really know. Erm maybe about three quarters. [Cynthia:] Computer writing it? [speaker001:] Yes it's going on to to word processor. Yes [Cynthia:] Mhm. [speaker001:] yeah. Yeah it's a slow job. Er let me just check [Cynthia:] So is that is that last year's training? [speaker001:] For all the years. From when anybody started, the training goes right through up till the last bit of training they've done. [Cynthia:] Right. So it isn't really an upgrade [speaker001:] Yes yes [Cynthia:] At the moment [speaker001:] it's er [Allan:] But you don't have it? [Liz:] I don't but it's lying it must be lying on my desk. [speaker001:] Very time-consuming. [LAUGHTER] [Liz:] Dorothy could perhaps fax it up, cos I I had it typed out yesterday so we could, do it. Shall I do that? Shall I give her a ring and ask her to fax it? [Allan:] Well Cath could do it. [speaker001:] What's that. [Allan:] Could you fa could you ring Dorothy. [speaker001:] Yes. [Liz:] On top of my desk there's a ha there's one of these. One of these, inside it, it says, To go out to go out To go out today. And it's it's about the C Os C E D software training. [speaker001:] Oh right. [Liz:] And there's three pages. [speaker001:] And you want it faxing back here? [Liz:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right okay. [Liz:] I bet it's not there. Sorry. [Allan:] Mm. It's alright. Right so maybe, before we go any farther, with this er if we just, just before we do that. There's nothing else to add. The paper that went to er C C S M T, erm was really a similar one but just partly with a bit more erm details. And where we were with investors in people. Erm so that we may well have to link in to the training programme and go back and check, for instance in three where I've talked about the business plans. Have we actually got any training... for those nine points there, that say, you know, Are we doing something on produ I know the product specification's developing. But do we [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] need any training for that? Do we need any training on consumer evaluation? Do we need any training on erm If we change the line management of the adult's team, do we need any training on next? Picking up after T two M. Erm anything on career's libraries, and anything on reviewing the C E G framework document. So we'll have to I think keep going back to these throughout the year and saying, Are we erm are we doing it [Cynthia:] I mean some of those some of those are already done aren't they. I mean the marketing our guidance, is the product specification one. That's on the list, already. [Allan:] Where's that? [Cynthia:] Marketing our guidance. I think that relates to [Allan:] Oh right. [Cynthia:] the product specification. And [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] there is evaluation plan for this year is... meeting on the fifteenth of September, so for C Os there's some work on consumer evaluation. In sc with s the school. Clients. That school and college clients. But perhaps not with the other groups there. [Allan:] Yeah. [Jayne:] The next one, it really depends what changes we make, but any changes will potentially have training [LAUGHTER] implications won't they so [] [Allan:] Mm. That's right. [Sue:] Next we could probably I mean Deborah's looking after that one isn't she. [Allan:] Yes. [Sue:] there there's been a... She asked us to do something in relation to employer awareness campaign.... [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] You could describe as training. [Allan:] Did you do anything on your marketing, employer awareness er [Cynthia:] On that, No.... [Allan:] Mm.... Is that worth repeating, that course do you think? [Cynthia:] Oh I think it is. Yeah. [Sue:] It seemed to go down very well. [Cynthia:] Yeah. If you can afford another four hundred pounds or whatever it was. [Allan:] You were on that were you. [Sue:] Yes it was really good. I thought it was useful. [Jayne:] Don't let's go there again though, cos I spent all day making coffee. [Cynthia:] You won't get Bill there again. [Allan:] You won't get Bill there again no. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] Why what happened to him? [Jayne:] He got his car stolen. [Cynthia:] He got his car stolen. [Allan:] Got his car nicked, from. It made the news local news actually that [speaker001:] Did it? [Allan:] I h well not h personally [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Bill's robbed car was used in a robbery. But the actual erm carry on they'd had with it. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] Apparently was on the local news [Cynthia:] Cos they had a bit of a chase or something didn't they? [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] Yeah they they used it to get away. Why did they choose Bill's car I wonder? As in [Allan:] It's probably old [Jayne:] No it's not no it's a erm Vauxhall Astra. Or Belmont or whatever. [Sue:] Yeah [Jayne:] It's quite it's not that old. It was a leased car so it's only a couple of years old. [Cynthia:] Oh it's a lease car is it? [Jayne:] It's not he'd just bought it. [Cynthia:] Oh it's not a lease car. [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] Just changed from a leased t [Allan:] Anyway we'll have to, I think, revisit those nine points as w as we go on because that's [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] part of the the thing. Obviously then we need to pick up the appraisal system, and I think what I'll have to do with that, is as the targets kep co start coming in, erm we'll have to set up some sort of system, preferably I suspect computerized. That will actually I'll be able to put the targets, or the ideas of the targets onto computer, and pick up any trailing training from that. [Sue:] Do you Will you get the training from the targets though, because... certainly from I mean onl only talking about two appraisals so far [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] that we've actually talked about training needs as part of the [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] appraisal. But that's not really what the targets are focused on. [Allan:] Very true. Mm. Mm. [Sue:] The fac targets are focused on things that are within that own persons control, that they can do something about themselves, straight away. Without any sort of training implications really. [Allan:] Mm. Mm. I don't know. But anyway the idea we have to fix up some sort of system that picks up the the targets from that. Yes maybe. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Erm... Going through that four. Erm the document we're gonna look at in a minute, talks about training entitlement, so we can maybe, maybe pick that up. We s talked to Cath a minute or go about the full training record system. Erm that should mean that everybody'll get a a copy of their own team's entitlement. Whether you I mean a the problem with that is keeping it up to date on [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] to u on more than an annual basis from this end. Erm but you know we'll we'll obviously try and do that. Erm four point five talks about I mean we talked about everybody charging all over the country doing various visits. Four point five. And the competence checklists came from that training course I was on, that's saying everybody, as well as having a job description, you've got to have a competence ch checklist, for that that er helps you to develop the training for the job, depending on the competencies you need. And that's gonna be a a bit of a er challenge I think. But we obviously have to do it, just for the the levels of job. Erm so we've maybe got a dozen to do for the service, and I'll have to look at that and and go from there. And then when we had the brainstorm, as I said. And then the cost benefit, evidence of need, I I drew out a f a paper. Erm on the back I think for each course we'll we'll have to try and fill in. But again that's I noticed erm looking through the particular about the organization er sheet, is actually there's something in there about that as well. So maybe if we could just flick through this, before we go on and start to to pick days and who's gonna do what. From that. That's right Investment in People limited. In conjunction with Heart of England Training and Enterprise Council..... No it's this one isn't it.... Okay. Now one of the things I think we need to do, And I I I put it in there and it's pa it's part of my appraisal system, is to do some work on actually entitlements to training. For people. And do we say to everybody who's in the organization, erm, You are entitled to X amount of training each year. Somebody was telling me that. Thanks Anne. Somebody was telling me that erm... some careers service It was Steve I was talking to in the car the other night. Some careers services er they have twenty days entitlement to training each year. Staffordshire. He was saying, they're entitled to twenty days training each year. I think until I actually get the records system up and running, and do a check on how much our people are doing, erm it's difficult to say what our, if we have an entitlement, what it is. And I think it's a fairly you know, suck it and see. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Stick your stick your finger in there, see which way the wind blows. [Sue:] Is that twenty days pro rata? [Cynthia:] Well yes. I mean th this is the problem with part [Allan:] Well probably yeah. [Cynthia:] time staff. Because erm [Sue:] They need as much training. [Cynthia:] Yeah. They need as much training to do the job effectively. If they only have ten days, that's er not very much. [Jayne:] Mm there's also the fact that some people need [Cynthia:] If you include [Jayne:] more training than others isn't it? [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Sue:] Yeah. [Jayne:] I don't know whether I like this word, entitlement anyway. [Allan:] Oh I'll go and tell the boss he can [Sue:] Oh Jayne [Allan:] put it in my [LAUGHTER] appraisal. [] [Jayne:] I don't I mean it's sort of like you know, everybody has a right to this. Well I don't think anybody has a right to anything in particular. [Sue:] Are we trying to get [Jayne:] I know I know I I know and I appreciate that's it's a you know maybe a bit of a controversial view, but I I I think entitlement's a bit of a [Sue:] Well [Jayne:] strong word. [Sue:] i i perhaps in terms of if you think of it in terms of like the employer of the day, Well we've paid an external trainer to come along, it's actually costing us quite a lot of money. There's all the additional costs in terms of people's salaries and travelling expenses [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] and so on. I can understand that obviously we've got to be cautious about that sort of thing. But in terms of induction training, to make sure someone can actually do their job, [Jayne:] Yes yeah. [Sue:] I think they're entitled to to things like that. [Jayne:] Yes. Yes. But maybe not entitles [Sue:] Cos I think we've got a responsibility to make sure that we give people [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] the support and training they need. [Jayne:] But that that's because it fits into what we want people to be able to achieve. I it means that we're making people. Erm we're giving them the appropriate and suitable skills to be able to do their job. [Sue:] Yeah. Yeah. [Jayne:] But I don't see that as being the same as an entitle [Sue:] But that's what all training should be really isn't it. I mean all training should be towards the aims of achieving the business plans. [Jayne:] I think it's the word I'm unhappy with Sue. I'm not I'm not sa ent yeah [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jayne:] entitlement. Ah it's not someth you know, it's not s something that I'm prepared to stick my neck out and say, Look you know, I I don't think that word ought to appear anywhere. It's just it's just a a view that's all. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] I think it's from the organization's point of view, from our statement of purpose, business plan, yeah, we do want people to achieve certain things, and therefore we provide them with the training to be able to do that. But looking at it from the other point, that's the you know the word entitlement comes from you know, I I think I'm entitled to twenty days' training, but whether I need twenty days' training to be [Sue:] Yeah. [Jayne:] able to do my job, I might need thirty days' training. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] It's just just the word that's all. [Allan:] I thought you were gonna say, It's it's derived from the Latin [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] I think what what you're really saying though, is that it's probably a mistake to actually look at it in terms of a number of days. And I think that's a very good point, because you're actually i the what you've actually said is, You're entitled to training to enable you to do you job competently. And I [Jayne:] Do your job. Yeah. [Sue:] think that's much more sensible approach. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Jayne:] I suppose there's a certain amount of personal investment as well. [639 1] You know I might want to do some training which is n doesn't necess [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] isn't necessary for me to do my job, but because I have a personal interest. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] And I think sent me on that course you know. [Sue:] Yeah. [Jayne:] But erm i it's I I think it's the word entitlement, the fact that it's anybody's right to have this [Sue:] Right. [Jayne:] or to have [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] that. I think it's a bit strong. A and and to say twenty days when somebody might need much more than that, somebody might need [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] less because it's the type of job that they're doing. You know, [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] such as f er for example a word processor clerk or may not saying, may not necessarily need so much training as [Cynthia:] But doesn't doesn't it often work out though that the people who erm need more training, often are the ones that have resisted going on training in the past. [Jayne:] Oh well that's up I think that's up to us because it fits in with in our aims and objectives. You say, [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Jayne:] You need this training to do your job. [Cynthia:] Mm. Yeah. [Sue:] S I mean t y you see, what you could work more towards is almost a sort of an agreement wi with individuals isn't it? [Cynthia:] Mm. [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] And although you know whether we use the word entitlement or not, it could [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] actually work both ways. Cos I I can understand if we didn't handle it carefully, it could mean people would be more demanding and say, I'm entitled to go on this training. [Jayne:] Mm mm. [Sue:] Whereas if we're very careful about how we put the message across, it could actually do the opposite in that, people see that they're entitled to a certain basic level if you like, to enable them to [Jayne:] Yes. [Sue:] And every time they put themselves forward to go on to a tra on a training course, they've actually got to think through, and maybe justify to their line manager, [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] Erm this im this training day is gonna help me be better at my job, in this, this and this respects. Or your line managers [Liz:] I think [Sue:] can say to the individual, This training course is gonna help you do your job better in this, this [Liz:] Because [Sue:] and this respect. And then that can be reviewed afterwards and so on. [Jayne:] Mhm. Mhm. [Sue:] So it could be helpful if it's [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] handled properly. [Liz:] Yeah. [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] And I think that it is it would be a mistake to look at in terms of a certain set number of days. [Liz:] Cos it will One one thing that personally And also what's available in the year. [Sue:] Yeah. [Liz:] I mean it might be one year you want [Jayne:] Yeah. [Liz:] thirty days training and then the next the next year ten [Jayne:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] I find that people tend to not put themselves down for training courses. I don't know if this is the same in other places. But erm careers officers particularly put themselves down for visits, to [Jayne:] Mm. [Cynthia:] colleges and you know, different places. And and the visits seem to be more popular, and often quite a few careers officers will put their names down for that. And I think in terms of justifying that, if we had that you know, if you're saying people have to justify why they're going, I think they'd all more or less say the same. You know, that often sort of getting some first hand information is the [Jayne:] Mm. [Cynthia:] best thing to you know, boost your You know how then how do you decide that [Allan:] And a [Cynthia:] one person needs it more than another. [Allan:] And anot in a careers officer's view the other day, that seeing as though they'd worked there twenty years ago, they wanted to go back and see how it had changed. [Jayne:] Mm. Mm. [Allan:] As a reason for going. [Jayne:] Yeah. I mean I think that in terms of visits [Sue:] They could have thought up something better than that [LAUGHTER] couldn't they []? [Jayne:] I think in terms of visits, that er an entitlement might work, with visits for careers [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] officers, but I think in terms of other kinds of training courses, that they're slightly different. And more an individual basis. [Allan:] I mean technically we do have an entitlement to visits in that Janet was was reminding me the other day that that we said, when Deborah was here, that everybody was entitled to four visits a year. Erm two to H E I didn't realize this, two to H E, two to F E. And I think that was on the basis that we were insisting that everybody visited the local F E college or you know sort of Yorkshire, Scarborough, Harrogate got got their irregular updatings and S and Selby when whatever. But that that we took the view that you know people were entitled to go to an H E institution, and and keep up to date with what was happening there every year. Erm I mean I I have some concerns, like Cynthia, about the number of careers officers who suddenly appear when you say there's a visit to, Hull University, and we've got people coming from all over the county and it's costing us a fortune. [speaker001:] What [Allan:] But you say something like, the employer marketing to employers, and certainly the the employment officers We had quite a number on that course didn't we. It was mix like [Sue:] Erm it was a mix yeah it was a sort of erm a half and half. [Allan:] Was it? [Sue:] mm. [Allan:] Yeah yeah. I know the first lot of bits I got in were all employment officers and I was thinking, Hang on a minute where's [Cynthia:] There were a number of careers officers [Sue:] I though that it was really [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] Was a bit [Sue:] mainly Particularly aimed at employment officers cos that was where the lack of confidence was coming from. [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] In the original request. [Cynthia:] I think it was I think it was really [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Sue yeah. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] Had an interesting discussion at a staff meeting on Wednesday though. Some const constructive criticisms to help us rationalize the college visits. They were [Allan:] Mhm. [Cynthia:] actually saying there should be less visits. [Allan:] Mm. Fine. [Cynthia:] And that m some colleges didn't need visiting every year. [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] And s some suggestions that I said I'd put forward to Janet about streamlining nominations and so on. [Sue:] Oh God. [Allan:] Can I just just just move on cos I think the first thing we're gonna pick up on this is this entitlement business again. So if we look at module objectives. Which is sort of the the first page in. Second page in, keep going, keep going. Mm that's it. [speaker001:] Right. [Allan:] Right I mean this tells you what the You've past it Jayne. [Cynthia:] I can't find it either. [Sue:] The first page. [Liz:] Front page. [Allan:] It's just before unit one. That's it. Left hand page down. [Cynthia:] Oh there. Right I've got it. [Allan:] Right. [speaker001:] Mm. [Allan:] I mean this talks about what this particular booklet does, and and why we're saying, it would have been useful to have had this probably for our last meeting really. But erm it doesn't really matter. So this talks about putting together the comprehensive training and development policy, and training plan, that we need to get to get I I P to demonstrate. And it talks about writing measurable objectives for all training events. Something I don't think we particularly do. Erm and introducing regular training and development planning throughout the organization. Which is is what we said was one of the key key areas we need to do for I I P. And then defining the business benefit for all training events. There is one there is another one on evaluation that I think, erm I'll give to Ray because he's doing that evaluation thing [Sue:] He's doing that now. Yes. [Allan:] and then get him to [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] take us through that the next time we have a [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] a group to get together. Which I suggest is after that workshop. Sometime if we can spare half a day. Erm sometime in July Erm is it May the nex May the next one? [Sue:] I I The one he's going on to that I can't go, it's the third week in July. [Allan:] Oh right so maybe plan the meet again after that. Or. Okay so the first bit then is actually the the policy. And they talk about, on page module three, unit one point five. There. Actually writing out to our members of staff and saying, This is the policy that we will have. So you know, saying, We s fully support the policy that erm the line manager's gotta resp share responsibility with the individual. Taking Sue's point, all new staff get the induction programme. Erm we're linking with the relevant staff association, erm just some general er points about how we identify and evaluate erm and put together the training plan, And and settling once and for all about the national recognized qualification. Saying what we'll do for that. And then over the page it actually then, puts through gives us the quite nicely, erm a document that we could use just to send out and and do. If we wanted to pick this up and said, This was an idea. Now I've actually done this in the past. If you remember a couple of years ago. Er three or four years ago for two or three years. I actually put out a quite a thick document that I think could be classed as a a [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] training and development policy. But we haven't done it for the past eighteen months. [Jayne:] It was good. [Allan:] And it it strikes me that this is er a starting point. For the beginning of that document almost. Now what it actually says, I think Jayne, in the erm... No it doesn't. No er. [Cynthia:] We if you go to back to that first page, under induction it says, A training has a mandatory contact [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] content, but it can be expended extended to meet special needs. Why what does that mean? [Allan:] Well I think it basically means everybody does does wha we've asked them to do, which is the work shadowing content of the first week. And after that if you've got special en [Cynthia:] Oh but if you've got special [Allan:] entitlement. [Cynthia:] Okay. [Sue:] Sorry what page are you on now. [Allan:] Well I've just I've just quickly gone through it and said, the the documents that are blue in this this copy, [Cynthia:] Black in [Allan:] Black in most of them. Actually give you something that we If we decided to... to put out to our members of staff, seems to actually cover the erm... the needs of er the I I P. [Cynthia:] Can I just ask about the evaluation. Are you saying that that's in this next workshop? [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Is that the thing that's in the next workshop? [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] So we don't really need to consider that at this stage. [Allan:] Yeah. Do we want a five minute break. [Jayne:] Yeah shall we have another coffee? [Allan:] Good idea. [Cynthia:] Yeah. That's what we'll d [break in recording] [Allan:] to try and finish... for half past twelve if we can. [Cynthia:] Fine. [Allan:] Cos we've got this thing after that [Sue:] What time is that? [Allan:] Well Ray's coming about half eleven he said. So he'll be joining [Sue:] Oh is he? [Allan:] this and then we can pick up. Erm [Sue:] Good, cos I'd quite like to be off for [Allan:] Well half past three. I'm thinking we at the latest we can [Sue:] Great. Brilliant. [Allan:] finish if if possible before that. And they don't the T Q M stuff'll be er I don't know what we're gonna do with that. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Right. So we've got the I think that to to fulfil I I P requirements, we've gotta put out some it would be useful to put out something like a training and and development policy. We'll have to look again, it's interesting with the nationally recognized qualifications and records for life bit, that we already do some of this. But it actually formalizes I think saying that you know, We'll we'll give so much funding where they're wholly related to the business, and then whatever. We've said in the past it's been fifty percent full stop. For those people who bothered to get in touch with me. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] So you've had some haven't you for seven three six O or something. Did you not get that Did you not? Oh right. No. Anyway we're back we paid everything from Open University to word processing courses [Cynthia:] over mine. [Allan:] Oh well they don't do advanced degrees. [Jayne:] No that's too advanced Cynthia. [Cynthia:] But we don't [Jayne:] If you're that advanced you have to pay for yourself. [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] the support as well I'm thinking of something like Mary's P G C E, that Alison's her sort of mentor for that, [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] and she's doing other things through work that you know, I'm I mean it in theory it's sort of giving some support to. Well more than in theory [LAUGHTER] I suppose []. Because she's using her work as evidence for for getting through [Allan:] Yeah. Yeah. [Sue:] and so on. [Allan:] I want this in for when me and Jayne do this management training at er at Grammar School. This year it's it's gonna be a two hundred percent funding [LAUGHTER] cut. For me. [] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] A hundred percent funding for more than fifty percent of the day you know. [Allan:] So I mean I I I am suggesting that this appears to be a ready made useful document that that forms part of a at the right time, we put this out to back up the the rest of the er the document. It maybe maybe might be appropriate Jayne to go to the next staff staff consultative committee as the the next er [Jayne:] Unless I can manage to be off sick again. [Sue:] Yeah you managed that [Allan:] Yeah it was quite pleasant. [Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much. [] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] It was quite a nice meeting actually. [Sue:] And you you did discuss libraries. In that didn't you? [Allan:] Very briefly they did in the end cos everybody else m jumped on the band wagon. [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] So you shouldn't feel alone in that. But they'd had a pre-meeting when they'd tried to drop it out. [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] Erm Joyce I think had had tried to drop out the things that were only relevant to individual officers out. [Sue:] Mhm. [Allan:] And erm but then they'd all Margaret and erm everybody had jumped on the bandwagon and said, [strange noise]. So it'll come up at the next C S N T. [Sue:] Yeah. Deborah did actually say to me, she thought that Harrogate might feel I think it's to do with priorities for the [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] librarians isn't it. [Allan:] Yeah. So I've just made a note, the next C S N T, I'll in the report back from the staff consultative committee, there's two or three things we need [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] to pick up. [Jayne:] We need to pick be clear about the erm allocation of time for librarians, for the careers guidance agreements as well. [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] That was mentioned. The other day wasn't it [Allan:] That's right. [Sue:] Yeah about time you got skills to pay really isn't it? [Allan:] Funny enough there's a course just coming downstairs about schools. How w how organizations can identify what schools will pay for. [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] [whispering] I've just put it to the boss to see if he's er [] [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] [whispering] thinks we ought to go []. Anyway so that's the first stage of that. I think we we need to actually go back to erm or develop the stage one thing and and increase what we've done. Unit two talks about training objectives. And I know one of the things I picked up off... the course [whispering] was it? [] [Jayne:] No. No. [Sue:] No. No. [Allan:] Erm one of the things I picked up off the course is, technically every training course that we have, should be written in a way that that identifies erm... Unit two point four I'm on to at the minute.. [Cynthia:] Nearly there. [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] The erm actually says that every training course should have some sort of objectives and performance and standards and and measurable objective that presumably we can then pick up in evaluation. [Sue:] What was [Cynthia:] That's an area that I'm a bit unclear about. [Sue:] Yeah. Are we suppose Yeah. [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] Are we supposed to be using the pre-course questionnaires that I've seen a couple of times, on all course? [Allan:] Well eventually I think we'll have to get to that to that standard. Erm... er I mean er technically it should be something that's done centrally. And I'm trying to I've tried without success. And I'll I'll probably have to look at a you know s Cath and I have to sit down and say, Look for every course, this needs to happen. There needs to be a [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] pre-course questionnaire goes out. Whoever's running the course needs to fill in this particular form. [Sue:] Mm. Mm. [Allan:] For you to then add the rest of it, [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] and then after the course there's gotta be a post-evaluation form fed out. You know the the the [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] line manager does an evaluation on the day, but then back at base we do an evaluation for the the line manager. I've just made a note for the employer's thing Jayne. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] To send out er a form to each member of staff, so they go and talk to their line manager about it and share what's gone on. Erm and try and get Cath to do that for every course. [Cynthia:] Mhm. That's [Allan:] Erm [Cynthia:] that's what I was thinking because [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] in terms of the evaluation that we already do, it tends to be about the course itself. The sort of content [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] as it with a view to actually altering the course next time. [Sue:] Yes. [Cynthia:] Erm [Allan:] But [Cynthia:] we don't actually do anything to I mean sometimes you get comments about the way that it's helped people. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] But it's not exactly measurable even then. [Allan:] No. [Cynthia:] So [Allan:] I mean technically I think, what you're supposed to be with every [LAUGHTER] course []. Erm is almost to go back so that I don't know who's on the course but Jayne's course for example, [Jayne:] Clare. [Allan:] Clare, erm would go back to the office, you you or Phyllis or Joyce I mean preferably Phyllis would sit down with her and say, Right, Clare, what have you learned? Blah-de-blah-de-blah. In six months later or three months later would then diary date to say, come back again. Alright what have you done, in the least three months, that says that you've used the course, benefited from the course, that sort of thing. Now I think we do that irregularly. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] One might one might say one might say rarely. [Sue:] that with [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] all the courses that that [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Sue:] that we do and the courses that everybody goes on, I mean you'd you you'd just be spending all your time sort of [Liz:] Evaluating everybody. [Sue:] checking up on people and evaluating [Allan:] Well that's why I say, I don't think it has to always be, Sue, [Sue:] No mm. [Allan:] me, Cynthia. I it's got to be you know somebody within the organization. Admin assistants for for employment staff. You know, seniors for whatever the A D Ms, and yourself and you share the depending on what the course is, you would share the load out. [Cynthia:] If every course er made such an impression as that one the other day we'd be [break in recording] [Allan:] Well that's right I mean I I think it's like a lot of things isn't it? It it seems a n and this when I saw this, I thought, Oh my God, you know, the I I P gets bigger every time I look at something [Cynthia:] Mhm. [Allan:] different. Erm but I I suppose once it gets embedded in the system, it's maybe not so bad. I mean were we talking about you know, I suppose a quick five minutes feedback but then you know, five minutes in three months time. Cos the key thing with Clare is, she's don she's obviously gone back doing a lot, but who's gonna follow it up in three months time, to see [Cynthia:] Mhm. [Allan:] what's got embedded. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] In the system? [Cynthia:] Yeah and and Yeah. [Jayne:] It's a cultural thing isn't it really? Getting people to change their approach and expect that with training, expect to have to analyze what they what they thought they're going to get out of it, why they should be doing it. [Sue:] Mhm. [Allan:] That's right. [Cynthia:] And I don't think we do it so much with the erm... careers service training, but with the careers teachers often we've got them doing action plans and things [Allan:] Mhm. [Cynthia:] at the end. And you get the feeling that they'll sort of go back to school and college or wherever [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] Nobody'll actually sit down with them and go through it or review it [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] at a later date. [Sue:] We also tend to write objectives more for those course. At least we did for the longer [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] courses didn't we. And presented those at the beginning. [Allan:] That's right. [Sue:] Which you tend not to do so much for the shorter ones. [Allan:] Which is what this is all about really trying [Sue:] Mhm. [Allan:] to to say to people, If you're coming on the course this is what you're going to get. Talk to your manager about personally and and you know corporate objectives and and go from there. So I think that's something that we we're going to have to. And it may well be that that we'll have to you know make sure everybody who's running a training course, gets this particular [speaker001:] [cough] [Allan:] and and tries to fit in [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] with it. [Sue:] With regard to action plans, one course I went on, I think it was with Theresa, ad er it was Adrian Is it Adrian? name. The one with [Allan:] I know who you mean yeah. Bruce's men. [Sue:] And er we all had to do an action plan at the end of the course, and then three months later [Cynthia:] Mm. [Sue:] the action plan was actually sent to you in the post. [Cynthia:] Mm. Yeah. Yeah. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] You know with the idea that you sort of should look at your action plan and say, [Cynthia:] Yeah. Mhm. [Sue:] Well have I done this? What have I got to do [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Sue:] now? sort of thing. [Liz:] I think that ha has to be in on if you're on a slightly longer course than that a day you [Sue:] Mhm. [Liz:] know. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Liz:] But I I remember that happening [Sue:] Yes cos Theresa's was two days. [Liz:] it it was it was really good. It made you think. [Sue:] It made you think didn't it? Yeah. Mm. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Liz:] Mm. [Allan:] So I mean I think we've got to go into this for all the course. Erm and then... er you you know using this particular this particular module. [Jayne:] Perhaps we should decide that it's a high priority to actually do a proper job, like this. And therefore be slightly less ambitious about the numbering range of courses we're going to run. We're more likely to achieve this [Allan:] Well [Jayne:] if we are slightly less ambitious. [Allan:] Yeah. I think the only other way of doing it isn't it is to say we won't do it for every course initially. We'll we'll give it a go and we'll [Jayne:] Mm. [Allan:] you know, some [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] whoever's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] you know whoever's running the next [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] the the careers course [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] for for the [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] erm software one which which could possibly have You know, we'll ask Liz or [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] we'll ask Liz to do it, and give it a go and then talk through it. And then Or we'll we'll say if we get a facilitator in, I don't see why we shouldn't ask Graham. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] You know it would be interesting to get Graham, when he does the next T Q M thing, to do it. So I agree it it may well be a pain in the neck, but it it may not fall [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] No but it will be. [] [Allan:] Obviously [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Obviously interpreted your er But I think we'll have to work towards that and I I agree Sue I think there's two ways either saying, you know, we don we do it for everything, or [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] which I think is a lot to answer for w we do one [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] or two and have a look at it. And see how easy it is. I mean the idea of course is to try at some stage and run a trainer trainer's course, so that we expand the number of people who can who can do the training. Which we've got. [Jayne:] [LAUGHTER] You know the fur the further we get away from [LAUGHTER] the trainers course, the less inclined I feel to be able to do it []. [Allan:] But. [Cynthia:] But Su are you going on this one? [Sue:] I'm supposed to be. Yes. I've not [Jayne:] Oh jolly good Sue'll be the most up to date one. [Allan:] November you said. [Sue:] Now I Yeah, that's right, November. Cos there was one in July and I suspected it would clash with holidays, which it probably does, so the November one I'm trying for. I'll ring them up and see if they've got any places left. [Allan:] Well Cath can do it for you. [Sue:] I've got the booklet with me actually. [Jayne:] Will you let me go again on the basis I made a cock-up the first time round. [Allan:] [LAUGHTER] [Jayne:] Mm. [Allan:] Erm [Liz:] When we we but we already do quite a lot of this anyway. I mean the whole [Sue:] Yeah. [Liz:] thing about objectives. I mean you you can't run a course [Sue:] I always try to write objectives. [speaker001:] No. [Allan:] But I I think the things is isn't it, to a certain extent with the I I P it's formalizing it? [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] And it I think the evidence [Cynthia:] And having and having a procedure and a policy. And it's the evidence that a you've got to produce to say that I've got to demonstrate that the training that we do has objectives, so that they can go back and say to... Cynthia, you went on that course in whatever, what were the objectives for it? Mm. [Allan:] Can you identify why you went? What were the objectives? What did you learn? How was it... The next section goes on to analysis section three I think. Unit three. [Liz:] Yeah. Mm. [Cynthia:] Unit three. Module three, unit three. [Allan:] Have you got it? Sue? [Sue:] Yeah. I'll speak to Cath before she [Allan:] Yeah yeah. [Sue:] goes and see if she... [Allan:] This goes on to measuring erm training needs analysis. Now is you remember last time we said we wouldn't do this at the minute because we erm we've got erm a [Cynthia:] It's appraisal. [Allan:] checklist. But it it goes into picking it out of er I and I think maybe when we do decide to do another training needs analysis. After we've got We said we'd get the appraisal system up and running didn't we. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] Er... We'd do that with that. So unit four talks about how to plan... erm how to plan it which is where we're at at the minute. Really and the type of documentation that they're that they're on about. [Cynthia:] Actually can I digress back [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] to er the training objectives. [Allan:] What page? What's your page? [Cynthia:] Er module three, unit two dot thirteen. And there it's got about erm... measurable objectives and it's saying, Ensure all managers can write measurable training objectives. Organize a workshop or training session if necessary. So I'm wondering if we need to have that [LAUGHTER] in the training programme []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Well I think [Cynthia:] As a sort of starting point after [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] the workshop, you know, th next I I P workshop, You were saying about having a meeting then. If that should be in the form of [Allan:] Yeah. well what I'd like I think I'd like people to do is go away and read this and see if it makes any sense when you've actually sat and studied it. Erm [Sue:] That remi you've C Cynthia saying that reminds me of the other thing that came out in feedback. From appraisal and the the training that you did the other week, [Cynthia:] Mm. [Sue:] is training in target setting. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] Which you could link in, target setting and objective setting and so on. You could put together as a package couldn't you? [Cynthia:] Mm. It's the measurable ones and training that I'm just not I don't know what that means. [Allan:] Well I think it means, in the sense, if you look at the example they've given here. [Sue:] Well an objective is always measurable. [Allan:] Yeah. If you've if it's smart. [Jayne:] If it's smart. [Allan:] Yeah it should be. If you look at the on sheet unit two point seven, At the bottom, and the measurable objective here is is reducing the number of complaint escalations by fifty percent within three months. [Cynthia:] Yeah. That's the sort of thing I mean. I think it would be very difficult to do that sort of thing. [Allan:] For us to do. Well it may be. But it may well be, with something like Jayne's workshop that she ran with with Graham, [Jayne:] Well I didn't it was Graham's workshop. I didn't do anything. [Allan:] Well Graham's workshop. That the measurable objective might be that that that people who are on that course d go out and do X. Which is why you s when you set it up, you've got to say, Well what are people going to do at the end of the workshop, that demonstrates that they've learnt something from it? [Jayne:] Yeah but then how do you va if one of your objectives is, that staff should be more confident in erm in their employer work. In things like cold and How do you actually measure that. I mean the only way measure it I suppose is by talking to them. You won't have any sort of numerical. I wouldn't have thought that you'd have any numerical erm [Allan:] But you could say that, whereas at the minute, because people are frightened the don don't go out and do it, they now you know, will go out and do it. [Jayne:] Yeah yeah that's wha but I mean [Cynthia:] But would you then [Jayne:] it'not numerically or [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] No. [Liz:] You're not gonna say visit fifty fifty firms after this. [Cynthia:] No. [Jayne:] No. Cos I mean you'd have your employer plan for the year anyway really. [Sue:] But there are some staff that we we assess their competency of employer visiting. Okay only people in their part two, but [Jayne:] Yeah. [Sue:] you could actually measure an increasing competence. [Jayne:] Could you. [Sue:] If some i Well well you could I mean if you went out with someone and you thought they were pretty naff talking to the employer again six months later and say, Oh they're a lot better. [Jayne:] Oh right if you were measuring them yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true yes. Yeah. [Cynthia:] But then that would mean that you'd have to have assessed people in whatever it was they were going on the training course before [Jayne:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] they went on, so you could then actually [Sue:] it's easy with part two people isn't it? cos you're measuring them and assessing them anyway. [Cynthia:] But how many part two people were on that course? I you know if we took that course as an example and wh what would [Sue:] I don't know. [Cynthia:] be the measurable objective? [Sue:] There was a part one person on the course. But not I don't whether there were any part two. [Cynthia:] Yeah. You see a this is what I feel is [Allan:] Yes I don't disagree, it may well be we want to talk to somebody like Adrian. And say, Come in Or Graham even. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Although we have to pay for hi we have to pay for Adrian you see. I mean Adrian's two hundred pound a day. [Sue:] Is he. [Allan:] And that's internal. [Sue:] He's quite good at it [Allan:] But yeah I mean I might talk to Adrian and say alright come and do something on on measurable training objectives for us. [Sue:] But but we do it [Cynthia:] from [Allan:] Here. [Cynthia:] Er er [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] We do it in the aims and objectives don't we Cynthia. You know, the three year plan. We say, These are these are the objectives. This is how we're gonna measure it. [Cynthia:] Yeah. Mm. But a lot of the training doesn't actually have a definite something that's sort of a number because it's actually getting people to do the work that they're already doing in a slightly better way or to feel more confident [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] about it. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Erm [Jayne:] That's still measurable. It's not easy but measurable. [Liz:] H but how I mean how would you For example l like the the interviewing further interviewing skills for the performance. How how would you go about measuring that other than talking to people afterwards about how they feel about interviewing others. [Jayne:] But there is no I there anything wrong with that as a way of measuring. [Liz:] Time consuming. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] But you could say, the measure would be, have they gone away and done it? [Jayne:] and their line manager [Liz:] Well they've got to do it anyway. [Jayne:] Yes. [Allan:] Well no they don't Well yes they do but [Jayne:] But if the line manager if in theory the line manager is taking feedback from them on immediately after the course and then going back to them after three months or six months. And actually talking to them, reviewing it. Then you are building up evidence. And maybe that it is in line with some of the the central targets of their appraisal. That you're automatically gonna be reviewing at six monthly [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] or ye at least yearly intervals anyway. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] It's just gathering the the evidence isn't it really that's difficult [Cynthia:] So so if it if it was [Liz:] But then that has to be fed back to [Jayne:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] If it was sort of part of the [Jayne:] But then information from appraisal is being fed back centrally anyway. [Cynthia:] If if part of the appraisal was to look at what people had been trained in over the you know, the intervening period. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] And to make sure that that was recorded I mean, how they felt about you know, how that had helped them. Then [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] you know, that could... be a sort of central way of getting that back couldn't it if if it can be that sort of you know comments about being more confident, being able to get on with it. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] That sort of data. [Jayne:] Yeah cos if there's [Cynthia:] Cos you might not record that normally. [Jayne:] No but if we sa [Cynthia:] But if we made sure that was recorded, somewhere. I don't know. [Sue:] I still think maybe maybe we shouldn't be doing as much, and we should d be doing a small amount better. [Allan:] Well could well be. The problem is I think if you actually m measure what we do do, Sue, I think the part My observation is, that there's too few of us doing it. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Therefore it falls on all of us, all the time. Which is why I say we run the trainer trainer's course. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] And then you can you know, I mean, technically we have expanded cos if you look in in a couple of years there was me and you doing it wasn't there? [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] So we've now got you know, five of us round the table and Ray and Karen and and whatever. And I think, what I want to do next is actually go through the list, and just check who's gonna, who's gonna run it. And then see how that that comes from there. But I don't think we ought to do this for every course. [Sue:] No. [Allan:] Initially. I think we I think you're right we probably do need to run a workshop. Maybe with somebody in to just just give us a go at it. And then introduce it. And I think by the time we get to [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] this time next year, yes I think we'll be doing it for everything. But [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] we're gonna have to build up to it. [Jayne:] wonder as well, whether some of us should be putting as much energy into training teachers, and perhaps we should stop doing that and just concentrate on our own staff. [Allan:] Well I thought it was interesting, the boss said yesterday at partnership board, and I suspect he been saying with David, that erm you know, the gap in provision for careers education and guidance in North Yorkshire, is training teachers. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] But I don't disagree with you. I think it I I [Jayne:] Oh no. [Allan:] said You know my views on that. [Jayne:] Mm. [Allan:] That the burden for this falls on us, [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] almost totally. [Jayne:] Mhm. [Allan:] And I think that's that's wrong. That we don't get any L E A assistance to actually er to do it.... [Liz:] Yeah it's always a really isn't it? [Allan:] Well the advisors do nothing do they? Other than sort of do a bit of admin. [Liz:] Mm, [Allan:] So I I don't disagree with that statement. [Liz:] Especially when you're trying your people. I mean. [Allan:] Right. So point noted Cynthia I think, on that. But I'd like people to go away and read this [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Does it record body language? [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Right so as I said, Point taken but I'd like people to go away and read it. [Cynthia:] Yeah okay. [Allan:] And and erm we'll follow that up. Duly noted and... warm fuzzy sense in your direction.... So [Jayne:] That'll now appear in dictionary. [LAUGHTER] As a as a colloquial expression [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] What's that other word that Allan used? Fantabbidabbidosy. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] I was wondering will that appear. [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] Slightly too many syllables there I thought. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] So the next thing's the trainees analysis that we said we'd we'd pick up on at a later date. Erm but it does include, on module three, unit three point eight.... The er the team competency matrix. [Jayne:] Sorry can you say again? Three [Allan:] Unit three unit mode module three [Jayne:] Module three. [Allan:] unit three point eight. The team competency matrix. [Cynthia:] it's upside down. [Sue:] There it is. [Jayne:] Oh it is yes. [Cynthia:] ways up. [Allan:] That we have to develop at some stage. [Jayne:] I don't think I quite understand this Allan. [Allan:] Well it's a training needs analysis Jayne, so that everybody, you would say, first of all you would look at the job of a careers officer, and say, Right what competencies do they need to use that job. So you would then. [Jayne:] Oh right. [Allan:] You would then list the competencies down the [Jayne:] The top. [Allan:] the top. Along the top. And then tick off what they've done in the gaps. [Jayne:] Oh I see. [Allan:] At that individuals gaps. So you would link all your employment officers in there, do that, and you would see form that whether all your team can er had induction for instance, and who hasn't, whether all your team have erm can do interviewing. Er you know, are competent interviewers, and if they're not, whatever. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] P I think that'd be that's really useful actually. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] It's interesting that team briefing thing on there, because that's come up a couple of times recently, people have mentioned about erm team briefing as a sort of management system. Have you come across that? I don't really I think I might have come across that before once when I was doing my placement on actually. But erm I know a student who was at B H S, near she was saying how she'd had training for er delivering team briefings. You know it was something that B H S had you know, [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] gone into and everybody had been trained in this sort of team briefing system. And then at Betty's the other night you know, the was saying about team briefings too. I mean, I mean, we have office meetings you know, But I was thinking if we you know, if I knew sort of what the sort of philosophy was behind it I might be able to incorporate that into, the office meetings and say we were having team briefings. [Allan:] Well anybody want to interpret Well my understanding of team briefings, very quickly, is is to give you an example, after C S M T, what we should do is one of us should actually write down the key points from C S M T that you want to communicate to staff. That is then dished out to line managers. Who then deliver that team brief, in the same way to all members of staff. So that all members of staff get, key elements of communication at the same time. In the same way. [Sue:] mm. [Allan:] Rather than as we probably do at the minute, is you may go back and have a staff meeting whereas Sue may go back and brief Bill, to go and brief, whereas Jayne writes out to all her her senior officers. And you do it six different ways. The idea is that there's one sheet of paper produced, with the key information that's delivered. At the same time preferably to all people within the organization. [Sue:] The other different thing I think is that it's more of a one way communication. Not exclusively [Allan:] No. [Sue:] but it's very much passing information down. [Cynthia:] Well actually [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] when when I first heard about this it was at 's Engines [Allan:] mm. [Cynthia:] where I did my placement. And they had a system where erm they got this information and they It was that they I think there there was something about the time element, it had to happen at a certain time [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] on a certain [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] day. And this information was fed to them. er but then everybody in in working at 's had the opportunity to feed back [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] to the managing director, who was available at a certain time. [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] So you know there was this [Sue:] Mm yeah. [Cynthia:] sort of system for feedback as well. [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] And questions. [Jayne:] I came across I can't remember where it was but I came across somewhere where there was a freephone and people at a g on a given sort of in a given week could all just go and use this freephone number, and ring up and they'd hear a tape recording. [Cynthia:] you know, [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] and have a whinge you know, be available for people to phone you. [Sue:] An oral newsletter. [Allan:] Yeah something like that. [Jayne:] I'd go back to this though Allan. The erm [Allan:] Sorry fine. [Jayne:] No yeah. [Allan:] Andy 's coming along to the next C S M T [Jayne:] Right. [Allan:] to brief on the team briefing method they use in Wakefield. [Jayne:] Oh right right. Right [Allan:] That's what he did on his management. [Cynthia:] I but isn't Wakefield one of those authorities when they're all in a pretty central place. Or is it one where [Allan:] They've got three offices They've got three offices. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Anyway. [speaker001:] got our friend. [Jayne:] Be interesting to fi to look after their I I P. [Allan:] well I sent you the report didn't I? [Sue:] Mhm. [Allan:] Well I sent you the the initial report just to show you what [Sue:] Yes. [Allan:] what rubbish quality. But I've got the full report. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Right. Which is better. [Sue:] This I I can't help thinking with this Allan that we've talked about doing this competency thing and we've perhaps perhaps been a little bit dismissive of it because [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] we know it's a quite a job. Yeah. But I almost wonder. Er looking at this, if it's actually a lot more central to what we ought to be doing. Because I think if we did this and we actually thought through what competencies e members of staff needed to have, [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] it would help us rationalize the training provision a little bit, and really target the training provision. I think it could be really he it it'd be worthwhile actually investing some time [Liz:] Surely this been done before. Well careers officers and possibly employment officers as well. [Sue:] Well you you do it to a certain extent you've got descriptions [Liz:] No I don't mean go the govern I mean [Cynthia:] Nationally. [Liz:] nationally. [Allan:] Nationally. [Liz:] looking at N B Qs and what have you [Cynthia:] It must be Well it must be it must have been done and er Alison's in involved in that isn't she? [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. Yeah but it [Liz:] I'm sure it must must have been. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Liz:] And that's be a good thing [Cynthia:] There was something coming through recently about that. [Liz:] There was something about the the [Allan:] I don't know I mean I think it depends how you d whether it is as formal as that or whether you almost do it by saying to er to half a dozen careers officers and half a dozen employment officers, Fill that, you know, Fill that in. [Liz:] No. [Jayne:] Wouldn't it fit nicely into the appraisal system? [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Well that's the idea as well you see. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] I mean you know, if you're talki when you're talking about training needs, if you have something like that it's obviously much more formal isn't it. It helps you focus on exactly what what [Cynthia:] well I mean it's a bit like the you know, the objectives. Did someone just say that? [Allan:] Yeah. [Jayne:] Yeah well that's competency based training isn't it. [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] Yeah. Anyway that is something we'll have to develop I think for all all levels of of staff. Erm some time or other. Erm in the next six nine months. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] As I say [LAUGHTER] we're being slightly dismissive [] [Allan:] No no alright then. Are you saying that we ought to do you're gonna take this [Sue:] I think this fits into information systems actually. [Jayne:] It also [Liz:] Well it should link into that beca well no I was think that [Jayne:] And [Liz:] it should fit into you know that big really [Jayne:] You know the thing that you're talking about that Cath is doing? You know maybe th that record of training, that actually needs to be analyzed to fit into this framework. [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] Rather than actually just being purely information courses you did. [Allan:] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. [Jayne:] Erm something else I just thought. What did you just say? [Liz:] management information system. I said I think it fits into the manage. I was thinking about that project and erm but it is total is totally separate. I was being facetious. [Sue:] Oh I know, service specification it fits into as well. [Jayne:] No it doesn't. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] staff need to be competent at le certain levels to product standards. [Jayne:] Product delivery yes that's what it's called. [Cynthia:] No I'd already thought that. I'd already thought that through Sue. I'd thought you know it's wider than that. It's much wider than that. [Sue:] The key to everything. Do you think it fits into B S five seven five O? [Allan:] Spelt. [LAUGHTER] if you think it's so important [LAUGHTER] how can we do it? [Jayne:] Well I'll go and lock myself in a hotel room next week. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jayne:] Could you call in on my cousin, just to let her know how I am. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] I don't disagree I mean I I again it's a key it's a key element to to actually formalizing the training in that I mean, if you're going to do it properly, it all fits into you know [Sue:] I think [Allan:] the appraisal as as I think Jayne said, the appraisal said, I'm competent to do my job in these [Sue:] hm. [Allan:] but I'm not in this. [Jayne:] Mhm. [Allan:] Therefore part of the appraisal is setting the target to be competent in the job. [Jayne:] I [Allan:] And y you're quite right we actually don't have a list of things, particularly I suspect for employment officers. I think we do for careers officers. And I think you do that in a different way. But I think for employment officers, this would be really useful in the actual development. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] If we set ourselves target [Cynthia:] Hang on we don't I don't think Do we have a job specification for employment officers when we're recruiting [Jayne:] No you could be I think you could gather together that information fairly easily for all [Sue:] Mhm yeah. [Jayne:] for all staff. [LAUGHTER] And then you could get to use it in the [Cynthia:] I think we ought I think we ought to ask Alison if she's come across anything [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] in her you know, meetings you know, the national [Liz:] employment officers [Sue:] I wonder if we could set ourselves a target, that we actually include something like this in next year's business plan. But we say this is the these are the competency levels of our staff. So that it would be a means of comparison of our organization with a competitor. To say, Have your staff got these competencies? [Cynthia:] That does sound like product specification [Jayne:] It does fit in with sort of specification and [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Jayne:] product delivery doesn't it really? When you look at it like that. [Cynthia:] Yeah yeah yeah. [Allan:] Mm. [Cynthia:] It was just why I'm I mean wi the last meeting we had, took me sort of three pages to write what we've got to do and each item that we've got to do is sort of a couple of sheets of A four. So it's sort of [Sue:] lot of things that we need to do cos [Allan:] But [Sue:] you'd specify everything. [Allan:] But this is very broad headings isn't it. And for e for emplo for employment officers you would have induction, you would have interviewing skills, and you would say you know, we would also we'd be able to see of the training records, what interviewing courses [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] they've been on. Erm you would have vacancy handling, erm you would have [Jayne:] Telephone. [Allan:] Telephone, answering the telephone, employer work, Erm and i we can envisa I mean they're fairly broad headings [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] that you could then discuss in an appraisal what level, and you would have the record system to actually say, Well you've been on you know, the employment officers who went on that marketing course, [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] One would imagine you would you would now say, They and and have done some evidence to back it up, that that they're now competent. [Sue:] Mm. So you say they're fully competent. Yeah. [Allan:] So you'd say they're fully comp [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] because they've done this course [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] and they've done the employer awareness campaign, and they have an understanding. [Sue:] Mm. Mm. Mm. [Allan:] I think it's fairly broad headings that, which is why I think it [Sue:] Yeah [Allan:] it [Jayne:] It also gives you a guide to entitlement doesn't it because if you're saying you expecting [Sue:] Yeah [Jayne:] at this then they have a ti entitlement to training [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] to get them to that level. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] So it gives you helps with that [Allan:] mm. [Jayne:] as well. [Liz:] Targets yes. [Allan:] You know you might say that That's right. Taking that on you might say with interviewing, that you know, You've got to do an interviewing course every three years. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] So you would go back people like Shirley who's probably did [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] maybe done something [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] four years ago, Right [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] you're due another [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] Mm. [Allan:] another session. I don't think it would be [Cynthia:] No I think that you're right. [Allan:] too difficult [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] to do it and I think even, looking at the competencies of careers officers you'd probably be able to pick out broad headings. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] Mm, yeah. [Cynthia:] Well you could go I mean you could [Allan:] rather than rather than thirty six pages of that. Yeah. Cos I don't th I mean looking at this it's one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen, sixteen competencies there. And that's for an engineering department's head of engineering, so you I I doubt whether a careers officers [Sue:] Shall I go and ask her? [Allan:] Yeah go on then. [Sue:] E and also you know that course that they're doing for employment officers, that B tech course. [Allan:] Mm. Yes Well I say [Sue:] I mean you'd probably you'd get you'd get some of the figures from there. [Allan:] the eight the eight competencies on there I would suggest [Sue:] And presumably the competencies of careers officers are in the part two I'm sorry is that what you said? [Allan:] I mean I was picking the competencies off that er display and marketing guidance, interpersonal skills, group work, library and information work and equal opportunities. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] You could pick those. [Cynthia:] like here there's you know just sort of, induction and things that are common. [Allan:] Yeah, well everybody does the induction [Sue:] Yeah. Yeah. Mm. [Cynthia:] And if people change pace you know they they need induction as well so [Sue:] Especially seeing as we're we're moving away from the with the with the four to six progression for careers officers, we're moving away from continued assessment post, part two. If we set something up like that, it does give you an opportunity to revisit the competencies that were supposedly achieved during part one and part two. [Jayne:] has the word revisit entered our vocabulary now? I'd like to [Sue:] We do not want it in the dictionary. [Jayne:] Yeah but it does rather sort of fit the bill doesn't it. [Sue:] it's useful. [Jayne:] Mm. [Sue:] I mean let's let's not reject it if it's useful. [LAUGHTER] [Jayne:] No. [Sue:] Just a little point [Allan:] That's it. Well I was hoping it'd be interesting I mean I thought this was one of the key things at the training day I went to and I picked [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] it up again here, so I didn't mi wish to discuss it like this so as I said it's gonna be twelve months' time. But erm [Sue:] Well you wanted to do it anyway didn't you? [Allan:] Yes I it's in it's in the the list I did. Well it may not be providing we can actually pull out some still [Sue:] This isn't hard I don't think this would be hard will it? It's easy. [Jayne:] Just doing it. [Sue:] I don't think it will be hard, it's finding the time to do it properly. [Allan:] But it may be that what we do is is as you say that we Does that guidance thing give general broad headings? That one. [Sue:] Erm I don't know. I mean they certainly rationalize the c the number of competencies and made them stopped du hopefully they don't duplicate e one another as much as they did [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] so it's been been tightened up a bit. [Allan:] But I mean are there even broader headings on on that? [Sue:] I don't think [Allan:] So what's a [Sue:] Oh well there's the A B and C isn't there which is [Allan:] Mm. [Sue:] is to do with and D. [LAUGHTER] Is there an E? I think it's sort of employer education sort of guidance and more sort of organizational skills, it's those sorts of groupings I think. [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] Mm. I've actually done one of these. I worked for last summer and they they did this there, and total quality management meetings. [Allan:] Mm. [Jayne:] And they used to work through whatever you'd done, whether you'd done word processing that sort of thing. So and it worked there it was very good. [Sue:] Mhm. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] But it wasn't [Allan:] So you did it, from what basis, from as a worker? [Jayne:] Yeah as a worker. [Allan:] You filled you own in? [Jayne:] No they they came round. My manager came round and she just said erm, Have you done word processing? Have you answered the phone? Have you erm filed? and that sort of thing. She just ticked it. W And then at a later date she she would er reassess it and see what else you'd done. And I was only there for four months and. [Allan:] Did they actually check on the level of competence? [Jayne:] Yes she yeah she [Allan:] So did she, and w when she said, Have you answered the phone? did she actually sit and listen to you answer the phone? [Jayne:] Yeah yeah and she'd phone you up and see how you answered it and that sort of thing. [Allan:] Mm. See that's the other thing we were talking about monitor i monitoring the standards and targets. Actually doing that ourselves. You do that all the time but it's remembering to actually [Sue:] We had a lot of discussion about that didn't we? [Allan:] Record it. [Sue:] Yeah. Yeah. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] That you'd done it. [Liz:] a few things. [Sue:] Mm. [Liz:] Erm that'll [Allan:] Yeah. [Liz:] That on. Erm stand this is Yeah standards for guidance workers. The key unit. Work with others, manage. And then there's this one as well. An overview of some of the tasks [Cynthia:] Oh I had a copy of that. [Sue:] Do you think it would come i You know that project that that erm project bid that we put in for. [Allan:] Yeah. Well that's it isn't it. [Cynthia:] Yeah that's it then. [Sue:] Allan the the money the bid that we put in. [Cynthia:] Oh right yeah. [Sue:] The bid that we put in for erm looking at I mean wouldn't it wouldn't it come into that to a certain extent. And not that you think you we don't [Allan:] I think they've been told they can't have the money. I think they told they didn't have any money for it. [Sue:] So nobody's got any. [Allan:] But they've then gone back and. I asked Derek yesterday. At the [Sue:] I I wondered if you might ask him. There's very little in there about competency, which is one of the problems with it. [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Yeah right. [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] Oh well that looks as though we've we've got the careers officer one as a kick off point for that don't we? [Cynthia:] It does mention competency. [Allan:] What's the left hand column? [Sue:] Erm it's careers officers, careers teachers, careers coordinators, er depending on where you are. Like this is for an L E A careers service, this is secondary education, higher education etcetera. [Allan:] Oh. Oh they're the careers officer ones. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] And that be more complex than [speaker001:] Yes. [Cynthia:] other staff wouldn't it? [Sue:] Wouldn't be too difficult would it? Well cos you can take a lot from a job description anyway and er job spec. [Allan:] Could you [Sue:] It's alright we're just gonna [Allan:] Just stick a note Yeah I was gonna say photocopy them. [Liz:] Should I go down and get [Allan:] Well if you get one of each for us all and one for Ray of that page. [Liz:] Yeah. [Allan:] Hang on a minute. [Cynthia:] Is there anything in there that summarizes the the [Sue:] No I can't well the only thing that I can't I can't You kn you know the core objectives for your course. [Liz:] Yeah. I'm trying to remem you've put me on the spot now. Erm. [Allan:] Actually it's got employment officers in as well. [Sue:] Oh it's got employment officer [Allan:] Yeah and information officer. [speaker001:] I can't remember what the headings are. It doesn't seem to say anything. [Cynthia:] I was just thinking if it was on a page you could have got that photocopied the same time as these and then you know we would have all had one for reference. [Allan:] But I've seen it and sort of. [Cynthia:] I mean I favour the using that because of the s I mean I like the idea of revisiting the competencies. I think it's good. [Jayne:] We could we could probably summarize that [Cynthia:] The this is that everybody I mean everybody sort o you learn them don't them on probationary year. I mean by the time you get to a two years. [Sue:] It's excuse me can't we make up our own language do we [LAUGHTER] have to use. Do you have to use somebody else's []? I mean surely there are people in the careers ser [Cynthia:] No competencies are revisited. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] [Jayne:] What should we say instead of revisited? [Sue:] No I [Cynthia:] it it sort of keeps a sort of continuity in it and I mean I do think when we get to the end of the probationary year you've sort of really learnt all the areas. You know [Sue:] Well those of us who did our probationary year sort of over ten years ago. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] took you ten years. [Sue:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I'm still on my I'm still on [Allan:] If you can get one for all of us plus Ray. [Liz:] That's one two three four [Allan:] No no just get one for me. Cos me and Jayne share the I'll give that to Ray when he comes. [Liz:] Yeah fine. [Allan:] Well that's well that's been useful actually [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] Cos we've done that solved that now. [Sue:] Mm. And we've got to take [Allan:] And we haven't got any for clerks or managers we haven't done. [Sue:] No. Managers well. [Jayne:] Somebody needs to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Jayne:] Leave you out of it. [Sue:] It's then we've got of course and once we've got it, we've gotta take on board the implications in relation to what the training we provide is in relation [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] to the the competencies. Are we actually training people to be competent? [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] Or are we training to do other things? [Allan:] Yeah Well that's what i say you've all gotta go back to business plan haven't you and and [Sue:] Yeah that's right. [Allan:] the objectives of the organization and I mean I l i think a lot of the things we've got up actual do relate back to to everything that we do. Erm so I'm not unhappy and about competence as well. So I'm not unhappy about the things we've picked up. Where I think you are, where you get into problems with that, are things like, assertiveness training, negotiating, Well assertiveness training is that a competence based thing or not? Well it probably is isn't it? [Cynthia:] Mm. Interpersonal skill. [Sue:] Mm. Yeah. [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] Mm. [Cynthia:] If you had interpersonal skill down for everybody, cos we all need to have that. [Sue:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Then anything like that would come under that wouldn't it? Sort of general [Sue:] Negotiation [Liz:] Personal development [Cynthia:] Negotiation skills, Assertiveness and sort of thing. [Allan:] So if I get the typists to actually pick out those for individuals on this check list, we'd have it wouldn't we? [Cynthia:] Well which ones? The ones that we've just [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Well I I felt that that careers the careers officer one, it would be better to use the erm the probationary year competencies. Because that one on there had counselling and group counselling, and er things like that on which aren't really things we're familiar with. You know phrases or terminology that we're familiar with. [Allan:] No but I think that the other stuff gives you. Well all right then what I'll do, I'll get them to do that anyway. As a starter for ten [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] and then we can alter it. [Cynthia:] But couldn't couldn't you do one that takes the competencies from the probationary work book and puts that down. [Allan:] No I can't. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Sue:] You know they're just changing don't you. [Cynthia:] Well isn't that book [Sue:] That this book tells you what the new ones are. Yeah. [Jayne:] we just can't can't find at the moment. [Sue:] We've got so many core objectives we've got like A one and it's something like [Cynthia:] Yeah. there's fewer than there were before. [Sue:] Is there? [Allan:] It used to be about thirty six didn't it? [Cynthia:] Ah it was ridiculous. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Liz:] Core [Allan:] Okay can we move on? please. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Liz:] Yes. [Allan:] Erm the next stage is going on to unit four which is the the actual training plan which I think is where we're we're at today. Erm which on module three, unit four point four at the bottom left. [Sue:] Where? [Allan:] That's it. [Liz:] Oh. [Allan:] Which talks about de organizational development plans, team development plans, personal development plans, and signed off at each [Sue:] level within the organization. [Allan:] level organization. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Erm [Sue:] This is the [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] She was good yesterday. [Sue:] Was she? [Allan:] Yeah she actually said something. First time she's ever said anything at at a partnership board meeting. Which was which was done to saying, Yes I agree, I think it's brilliant. And she's written it. [LAUGHTER] She'd written well she didn't been consulted [Sue:] I mean there's a way an you know, there's a consulting and consulting isn't there really. [Jayne:] Mm. [Allan:] Did you go and see her? [Jayne:] Yeah. Bought me lunch in the garden centre. [Sue:] She Oh that is that one where she expected you a week early? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] She actually didn't spot the fact that it didn't have the addresses on the er [Sue:] And she's a quarter of an hour late. No because hers did have an address on. [Allan:] Oh right. Anyway so the organization training plan. Erm which I suppose our main focus would be introducing I I P wouldn't it. Erm... and then what we're actually going to invest in it.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] Well I think ours would be broad I I P and T Q M I think, I mean. And we would be actually investing ten thousand plus this year [Liz:] God. I wasn't expecting benefits. [Allan:] Well I think that's the difficulty. I think because this is all expected benefit in in cost. [Liz:] Yeah. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] And I'm not sure that we can identify that. [Sue:] You can you know you can't do it [Cynthia:] No. [Jayne:] but you you can say, because people are working more effectively therefore they're more cost effective. [Cynthia:] Yes. [Jayne:] Because if somebody's been on an employer marketing course, and the feel happy about it, they're more likely to do mor employer visits in one day. I'm not sure how that fits in with costings like you know, but you know what I mean. expenditure rather than income isn't it? Whereas if you were a commercial organization where let's say you were selling a product, then you'd expect to see a cost benefit in actual returns. Whereas our only cost benefit is is more better value for money [Allan:] Right. [Jayne:] in terms of salaries [Allan:] Yeah. [Jayne:] expenditure and so on. [Sue:] Yeah I mean if y if you were a double glazing sales person and what what what were the figures that they ex they think that about one in ten [Cynthia:] Oh yeah. [Sue:] They think that about one in from one in ten you get something. So therefore if an em an employment officer visited twenty employers in a day instead of ten, er they might have two contracts instead of one. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Sue:] But because we're not that sort of organization [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] Okay. So this one actually goes through from the organization to the team, which Deborah will like, through to the individual. So that from the what Su what Sue might happen thinking about it, you're saying the appraisal thing don't actually link in with the tree the team. From the targets from the appraisal [Sue:] Yes. [Allan:] you wouldn't actually get the training. [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] By completing one of these, you probably would. [Jayne:] It would link the two things together. [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] Yeah. [Sue:] Mm. That yeah. [Jayne:] The other thing is with the competency f if you w if you were looking at a competency chart with a certain member of staff, and identifying that they were incompetent [speaker001:] do you want some more? [Allan:] I don't want any more. I think that's the first cup I've had this morning. [Jayne:] But they were less than competent in certain areas. Then that's that's more likely to be a target. Cos there are things they can do themselves.... [Sue:] I'm not sure I still think it would come out in the section about training needs rather than necessarily. [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] It's interesting trying to get [Jayne:] Yeah there's one from Rick [Allan:] Okay.... [Liz:] Mm. I should think people other people would be much more feel much more competent as well. You know you were saying after that training day, admin assistants do have this. [Cynthia:] Yeah. Yes. [Liz:] To link in with the target. It's more specific isn't it. [Cynthia:] Yes it would [speaker001:] I would find that very helpful.... [Allan:] Right so on on top of all this, we've actually got as Sue's mentioned quite a few times, we've actually got to keep the damn thing afloat, well after introducing all this. And and I think continue to deliver erm the training erm so far along. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Now it's quite interesting w I went to erm an I I P meeting with on the the course that that you were sick. [Sue:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] And then Jayne filled in the first day. [Sue:] That I missed yes. [Allan:] Erm Lincolnshire [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] were there. And they've been doing it eighteen months longer than us. Didn't seem to be any farther along. Didn't seem to be any farther along. Were naive enough to think they could get through it without having an appraisal system, which I could not believe. Could not believe he expected to get it through without having a formal appraisal system. And had been salvaged when they'd had a sort of a a mock assessment. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] dog. [] [Allan:] And looking at this I think obviously, if this is the level they're going to assess at, [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] It's it's fairly ha fairly high high standard isn't it? Yeah. [Allan:] A fairly high level and we've got a bit to go ourselves I think. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] Erm but this seems to be [speaker001:] When are we looking at? [Allan:] a n a noddy guide for [Sue:] Yeah. [Allan:] for actually moving [Sue:] Which which is why really at that th for the development funding they did the didn't particularly want I I P supporting because it is so structured and a lot of it is on a plate in a sense. I mean it's all very that it's it's there it's actually putting in in place. But a lot of the thinking through has already been done hasn't it really. [Jayne:] When have we said we're likely to have [Allan:] Well I I said Christmas. [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] Erm with a view to saying really, providing we've got it in by the first of April next year [Jayne:] Yeah. [Allan:] erm I won't be too unhappy, but the idea will be of course not t not to go in if you're not gonna get it. [Sue:] Mm. [Jayne:] Mm. [Allan:] Cos I think I think that'll be a real downer and plus it'll cost us about three grand. [Sue:] Yeah. but they do sort of come in and give you some idea don't they? [Allan:] Yes they'll do a pre-assessment for you, and Cath who's our local'd come in and say, Yes, No. [Sue:] Is she our new person now? [Allan:] Yeah. [Liz:] Is she Oh yeah [Allan:] And I said to her, I've seen her in... July sometime or June or something like that. To actually erm I'd gather the evidence of how far down the line we are for her, saying that would that would be a a six monthly check. With six months to go, to say, Well we've got this evidence. Erm... Yeah twelfth of July. And I said I'd try and put some evidence together of exactly what we've got. [Sue:] Mm. [Allan:] By then. [Sue:] The assessment is really th them talking to the staff isn't it? [Allan:] Well that's that's the problem but I think a lot of this will be the evidence we'll need to show what we're doing. [Cynthia:] There is there's a lot of in that at erm cos erm You know it was I I wasn't really pleased about but it was a good evening. Andy was there who's the I I P one of the I I P people and he was saying, exactly what it was, but it was much greater talking to people than paperwork [Allan:] Yes. [Cynthia:] on the assessment. [Allan:] Yeah. [Cynthia:] Is it seventy five, twenty five? [Allan:] Something like that. But they're going to say, if they're talking to Liz, presumably the trainer as well as a person, you know, what [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] As well as a person. [] [LAUGHTER] [Allan:] As an employee. You know are you doing objectives and showing your objectives [Cynthia:] Yeah. [Allan:] when you're doing courses. [Cynthia:] Mm. [Allan:] As well as saying to people, When you were on the course, could you clearly state what the objectives [recording ends]