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### Human: CMV: ISIS is nothing more than another in a long line of bogeymen, used by the USA to further expand and justify their Imperial military efforts.### Assistant: >Not only this, but they -and most past and current bogeymen like Syria and Iran and North Korea and al-Qaeda and others- are a direct result of American foreign policy, and the only true way to prevent the new iteration, is to enact a policy of non-involvement. That's an inaccurate oversimplification of the geneses of all those threats. To say that those threats developed primarily because of American foreign policy is as wrong as saying that they developed without regard for American foreign policy; that policy contributed to varying degrees, but America is not some grand puppet master that's unilaterally responsible for all those that oppose us. For instance, one of AQ's big gripes was US presence in Saudi Arabia...at the request and with the endorsement of the Saudi government. You can argue that that presence is a *rationale* for their gripe, but that gripe is bullshit. North Korea has had a pretty fair hand in determining its own fate, as has its only friend China. Iran has a legitimate complaint with regard to Mossadegh and the Shah, but they did have a bit of a revolution and are free of American political influence. Anything after that is just a counterproductive vendetta. "Non-involvement" is not a viable option. We gave it up after World War 2 and during the Cold War. There are countries and governments all over the world that rely on US foreign policy to function and entire regions that depend on us for ensured stability. We have an ethical obligation to honor our commitments. Consider interests in the middle east: the entire world relies on a stable flow of oil from the region. I'm not talking about oil companies, I'm saying that world markets depend on that oil to function. An interruption of any length would be seriously damaging to the market. How about political interests? Israel, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt; the US is an integral guarantor of their economic stability and sovereignty. ISIS threatens all of them in one way or another. >Yes, what they are doing in the Middle East is horrific, but I, as an American citizen have no reason to fear them. The US hasn't faced an existential threat since 1865. WWI never threatened to spread to America. WWII saw a distant state attacked with a very specific strategic purpose, but the US was not going to be invaded by Japan or Germany. The last time the US military was literally defending US soil from foreign invasion, they were fighting the other US military. If we used "existential threat" as our litmus test for military intervention, neither World War would have seen US intervention and the remainder of history after that is totally unknowable (though I imagine it would be a lot more fascisty in Europe and Asia). We should intervene militarily when it is the right thing to do; when we reasonably determine that we can make the world a better place with the proper application of force. That's obviously an ambiguous proposition, so it should be approached very cautiously and with ample consultation from our allies and after carefully listening to our enemies. In this case, I think there is a general consensus among those voices worth listening to that ISIS needs to be violently opposed.### Human: > We have an ethical obligation to honor our commitments. Does this ethical obligation extend to such horrific economic policy whereby the US government must take on massive debt to fund these wars, and thereby place economic burdens (future taxes) on the unborn generations who had no say in the matter? The debt financing of war by the US is the selling off of the unborn.### Assistant: That's very...dramatic. Would it be too anticlimactic if I just said "No"? There's a big middle ground between isolationism and a 10+ year regime change operation. For example, the operations being conducted against ISIS right now really aren't that expensive. We're using ammo and fuel that's already in the budget and the ammo goes bad after a while anyway. Might as well drop it on assholes. I would argue with you about the importance of that debt, but I'm tired and I want to go to bed. Suffice it to say that I'm really not that worried about it.### Human: The broken window fallacy, we spend money on ammo thats going to go bad, and because we get to pay off the debt for that it's a good thing. I fail to see the logic.### Assistant: ...the broken window fallacy would apply if I had said that we were making money, which I did not. My argument was that the operations taking place do not cause debt because they are within normal operating budgets.### Human: Well you said "the importance of that debt" so forgive me if I'm confused.

### Human: CMV: Even if Certain Races Were "Inferior", That Wouldn't Justify Discrimination### Assistant: >I never see any of them argue for policies that would ensue from this... Because, like most who deride them as "slimeballs," you've never actually read their work. >...which I strongly suspect would involve eugenics or discrimination [and not welfare payments] Charles Murray argues for a [guaranteed basic income](http://www.fljs.org/sites/www.fljs.org/files/publications/Murray.pdf). > Best just to heed Dr. King's words and judge individuals by the content of their character. I, and Murray et al., would agree with you: Individuals should be judged on their merits. But at the group level and at the margins, these differences if legit would indeed justify discrimination. While mean-spirited and intentionally provocative, [this article](http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire/print#axzz3XuxrknoG) advocates forms of discrimination that can easily be rationalized if the findings on IQ differences and antisocial-behavior differences bear out. In addition, if certain races were "inferior," disparate impact doctrine would need to be reassessed.### Human: > While mean-spirited and intentionally provocative, this article advocates forms of discrimination that can easily be rationalized if the findings on IQ differences and antisocial-behavior differences bear out. That article never actually promoted any form of discrimination though. It just told people to avoid blacks in their private lives. How does that imply that employers should refuse to hire qualified blacks because of their race only? And what do you mean "if the findings on IQ differences and antisocial-behavior differences bear out"? The differences have already "beared out". There are recorded instances of lower IQ scores and higher crime rate for blacks. People can respond to that as they will. The question is, if the cause of these differences are genetic, then how does that support discrimination?### Assistant: >That article never actually promoted any form of discrimination though. It just told people to avoid blacks in their private lives. You realize that's discrimination, right? For example, Derbyshire says: >(10h) Do not act the Good Samaritan to blacks in apparent distress, e.g., on the highway. If you'd otherwise stop for whites, but don't stop for blacks on the basis of race, you're discriminating by any sane definition. >And what do you mean "if the findings on IQ differences and antisocial-behavior differences bear out"? The differences have already "beared out". There are recorded instances of lower IQ scores and higher crime rate for blacks. People can respond to that as they will. The question is, if the cause of these differences are genetic, then how does that support discrimination? "Bear out" was hastily phrased, but what I mean is that (1) I don't know the crime data well enough to opine with confidence that all of Derbyshire's recommendations are well-founded; and (2) if the genetic hypothesis *didn't* bear out, you could argue more forcibly that, rather than avoid blacks, we ought to engage with them constructively in effort to improve their conditions and alleviate the antisocial behavior. By contrast: >The question is, if the cause of these differences are genetic, then how does that support discrimination? If the differences are caused by societal conditioning, we stand a better chance of alleviating them by societal intervention. But if eugenics are off the table, outcomes driven by genetics are likely to persist, generation-to-generation, irrespective of antiracist efforts.### Human: > If you'd otherwise stop for whites, but don't stop for blacks on the basis of race, you're discriminating by any sane definition. Surely, you don't think the OP is referring to the strict denotative definition of 'discrimination', right? To suggest who people can and cannot associate with would be absurd. People can discriminate against whoever they want in their private, personal lives. In fact, people discriminate in this manner already, so it's highly unlikely that this is what the OP is referring to. He's more likely referring to discrimination that harms equal opportunity which was outlawed in the 1960s (employment, housing, or educational discrimination, etc.) > and (2) if the genetic hypothesis didn't bear out, you could argue more forcibly that, rather than avoid blacks, we ought to engage with them constructively in effort to improve their conditions and alleviate the antisocial behavior. By contrast: Firstly, as stated above, this isn't the type of discrimination the OP is talking about. Secondly, I'm not sure if this is true. Just because certain people would be more *predisposed* to violence doesn't mean that we should therefore eliminate all societal treatment for them. For example, dyslexic children are biologically predisposed to have more difficulty reading, yet if they are given early enough treatment, their reading ability can be improved to a much higher level than if they were given no treatment. Pit bulls are (probably) genetically predisposed to violence compared to other dog breeds, yet with proper socialization, an individual pit bull can grow to be as peaceful as the average dog. If blacks are genetically violent, then it may actually be the case that they should receive *more* social treatment.### Assistant: >Surely, you don't think the OP is referring to the strict denotative definition of 'discrimination', right? To suggest who people can and cannot associate with would be absurd. I think OP is referring to a common understanding of "discrimination" that encompasses more than formal hiring decisions. Just because the government doesn't proscribe people from discriminating in their private lives doesn't mean this discrimination isn't discrimination. You don't want your daughter dating a black guy -- are you being discriminatory? Also, as I allude above re: disparate impact, recognition of these differences would affect policy at the institutional level. It's illogical to infer discrimination from disparate impact if disparities are innate, so practices currently classified as discriminatory based on disparate impact would become legit. >Secondly, I'm not sure if this is true. Just because certain people would be more predisposed to violence doesn't mean that we should therefore eliminate all societal treatment for them. If you buy the hereditarians' data, IQ differences are strikingly resilient to environmental changes, educational spending, etc. Society has finite public resources and an obligation to allocate them efficiently. Faced with diminishing or limited returns in this area, it might well be wise to step back.### Human: > I think OP is referring to a common understanding of "discrimination" that encompasses more than formal hiring decisions. Just because the government doesn't proscribe people from discriminating in their private lives doesn't mean this discrimination isn't discrimination. You don't want your daughter dating a black guy --are you being discriminatory? I'm almost certain he's not referring to this. It wouldn't make sense for him to use the word "justify" if he's referring to the personal, private decisions of people. What people do in their private, personal lived has nothing to do with morality, and don't need to be justified. > Also, as I allude above re: disparate impact, recognition of these differences would affect policy at the institutional level. It's illogical to infer discrimination from disparate impact if disparities are innate, so practices currently classified as discriminatory based on disparate impact would become legit. Such as? > If you buy the hereditarians' data, IQ differences are strikingly resilient to environmental changes, educational spending, etc. Society has finite public resources and an obligation to allocate them efficiently. Faced with diminishing or limited returns in this area, it might well be wise to step back. Then how would you explain the fact that most agree that's its justified to spend extra resources on the mentally disabled? Surely, their conditions are genetic and resilient to environmental conditioning.### Assistant: >What people do in their private, personal lived has nothing to do with morality, and don't need to be justified. lol wut? no. this is not how any civilization in history has understood morality. >>practices currently classified as discriminatory based on disparate impact would become legit. >Such as? Such as the use of a qualification test for hiring or promotion where [blacks receive lower scores than whites](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano). >Then how would you explain the fact that most agree that's its justified to spend extra resources on the mentally disabled? Surely, their conditions are genetic and resilient to environmental conditioning. We don't spend with the pretense that one day people with Down Syndrome will get into Harvard on their own. We spend to provide basic humane comforts. This is basically what Murray's guaranteed basic income advocates.### Human: > lol wut? no. this is not how any civilization in history has understood morality. I'm speaking of morality as it pertains to what the government has an moral obligation to prohibit or allow. The OP explicitly says "policies", so he's most definitely referring to government action. > Such as the use of a qualification test for hiring or promotion where blacks receive lower scores than whites. I would argue that that should not be considered a case of discrimination. In any case, let's accept their usage of the word 'discrimination'. Even if we do, then I still don't think this type of 'discrimination' would be acceptable if IQ differences were genetic. We *already* have evidence that Blacks have lower IQ scores than Whites, yet the people in that case *still* thought that there was discrimination going on...why would it be any different if the lower IQ scores were genetically based, rather than environmental? Clearly, these people don't care about IQ at all. > We don't spend with the pretense that one day people with Down Syndrome will get into Harvard on their own. It's not just basic humane comforts. We also provide more resources *in education* for kids with mental disabilities, because they require additional help. Why can't the same be said for the inferior races? > If you buy the hereditarians' data, IQ differences are strikingly resilient to environmental changes, educational spending, etc. Society has finite public resources and an obligation to allocate them efficiently. Faced with diminishing or limited returns in this area, it might well be wise to step back. We can accept that certain races are predisposed to lower IQs, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't provide more help for them. Just because they have lower IQs doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage the able ones to graduate HS & college. For example, [KIPP Middle Schools](http://www.kipp.org/results/college-completion-report/2013-alumni-data-update) is a school district with schools in low-income minority neighborhoods. The students that attend these schools are 65% Black and 30% Hispanic, so the students there probably have lower IQs than average. However, because of the schools' dedication to ensuring academic success for the students, the students who graduate from KIPP go on to graduate High School and 4-year-Universities at higher rates than the average American. Are you telling me that you would be against these types of programs because the students have lower IQs?### Assistant: >The OP explicitly says "policies", so he's most definitely referring to government action. If you want to limit the definition of "discrimination" to definitions embraced by the government, fine -- but you can't shirk the disparate impact definition, because the government uses it. For example, while finding no evidence that Darren Wilson did anything discriminatory, [the DOJ has charged the town of Ferguson with discrimination](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/02/us/justice-department-report-to-fault-police-in-ferguson.html?_r=0) based on the fact that its police arrest, ticket and fine blacks more often than whites. This is an instance of discrimination in the eyes of the government, and it could very arguably be justified if we knew that blacks were innately more prone to criminal behavior than whites. >It's not just basic humane comforts. We also provide more resources in education for kids with mental disabilities, because they require additional help. This is a government policy that I disagree with, and more people would disagree with it if they understood it. It can easily cost $100-200k per year to educate a single, severely mentally disabled child, all so that he's one day competent enough to bag groceries at a supermarket. If you invested a fraction of that $ for him, he'd have a much better standard of living as an adult, at less cost to taxpayers. However, even if hereditarians are right, American blacks are not so severely disabled. (Maybe indigenous Australians.) So I would spend money to educate them, and to reduce externalities from poverty and crime. However, I would not dump extra money into special programs aimed at closing an "achievement gap" known to be genetically determined. KIPP and similar charters get great results, but (1) they skim kids with interested parents; (2) they attrit low performers each year; and (3) they get huge funding from private donors. It also remains to be seen whether their graduates succeed in college and the workforce.### Human: > This is an instance of discrimination in the eyes of the government, and it could very arguably be justified if we knew that blacks were innately more prone to criminal behavior than whites. I'm not following your reasoning. *We already know* that Blacks are more prone to criminal behavior based on statistics alone. Yet, as you can see, the government still considers these cases to be discrimination. So why would the government change their mind if they were prone to criminal behavior because of biology rather than environment? > This is a government policy that I disagree with, and more people would disagree with it if they understood it. It can easily cost $100-200k per year to educate a single, severely mentally disabled child, all so that he's one day competent enough to bag groceries at a supermarket. If you invested a fraction of that $ for him, he'd have a much better standard of living as an adult, at less cost to taxpayers. You're talking about someone severely disabled to the point that they can only bag groceries. That's not necessarily what I'm referring to. Consider again my example with dyslexic children. Clearly they are genetically predisposed to have reading disabilities, but with proper treatment, then their reading ability can develop to the point where it's almost indistinguishable from the average student (or so I've heard). Why can't a similar method be applied to blacks (shown by the Kipp example)? Perhaps, they will never be as academically oriented as the general population, but why can't treatment be applied to make them more productive than they would be without the treatment? > However, even if hereditarians are right, American blacks are not so severely disabled. (Maybe indigenous Australians.) So I would spend money to educate them, and to reduce externalities from poverty and crime. However, I would not dump extra money into special programs aimed at closing an "achievement gap" known to be genetically determined. Firstly, I never implied that extra money should be given to blacks with the intention of closing the gap, only that *some* extra money may be justified, to refute your claim that we should "step back". Secondly, keep in mind that IQ is not the sole determinant of future success. I read an article a while ago by James Flynn as he was studying the success of Asian Americans. He found that Asian Americans with IQs of 100 were as successful as White Americans with IQs of 120 (I forget the definition of 'successful'). This shows that, yes, some people may have an IQ deficit, but that alone does not imply that it would be a waste to help/guide them. In fact, it may be reason to provide them with more help so that they can overcome their barriers. > KIPP and similar charters get great results, but (1) they skim kids with interested parents; (2) they attrit low performers each year; and (3) they get huge funding from private donors. How does this refute my argument? Your argument was that we should not waste money on minority children because they'll never become academically successful on a large scale. I've shown you that using extra money on these kids may not actually be wasteful. Sure, perhaps extra money should only be spent on the kids with interested parents, but that just means the extra money should be spent more wisely...not that no extra money should be spent at all. > It also remains to be seen whether their graduates succeed in college and the workforce. I don't know about the workforce, but 44% of the students graduate from Universities, and another 5% graduate from 2-year colleges. If a near 50% college graduation rate *for kids who left a middle school* is not indicative of college success, then I don't know what is.

### Human: People with disabilities are not "differently-abled" or "handi-capable," they are disabled. CMV.### Assistant: At least for most people, I imagine it is about empowerment and reminding themselves they can still be productive members of society more than anything else. With that being said, you could also argue that a blind person can hear, touch and taste better than you can. Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder may not have been musicians if they weren't blind and in this way they are differently-abled. A person in a wheelchair may not be able to walk and this is bad in many situations. But have you seen the arms on some of those people. they also have to learn to be resourceful since life is more difficult and resourcefulness transfers over to other areas of life. Likewise, a dislexic person may not be abe to read, but if you look at entrepreneurs, a crazy number of them are dislexic. They have to overcome that shortcoming so they develop other strengths which they might not have had to otherwise (i.e. people skills, talking out of problems, making smart friends, etc.) Also, a person who is picked on for being disabled may be weaker for it, or they may turn that negative into a positive and become a more empathetic and stronger person. I can imagine similar scenarios happening for a number of different disabilities.### Human: Ray Charles wasn't a better musician BECAUSE he was blind. Being blind may have led him to become a musician, but it didn't make him better at it. If you gave him his sight back, he would still be a good musician AND he would be able to see. In this way, his blindness gives him only less ability. Plus, you almost said it yourself. OP is right, the other words are just for the feels.### Assistant: So Ray already has the determination and musical ability that may have been fostered by being a blind person and you gave him his eyesight back. Yeah, he is better off in that situation. What is your point? I'm not saying that no sight is better than sight, that is silly. I am saying that it can lead to differences in outlook (no pun intended) and ability that can be beneficial in some way. I would also like to point out that there is a musician named grace Potter who is blind and has the ability to get that fixed. She chooses not to however because being blind has made her who she is and she likes who she is. I'm not saying that is typical by any stretch, but it definitely doesn't hurt the point I'm trying to make. edit: Sorry, I misunderstood what you said. what evidence do you have that ray would have been just as good a musician had he not been blind? Maybe he would have, but what about every blind person who becomes a musician? Did you read what I said about them being 4000 times more likely to have perfect pitch if they are born blind. Sometimes ability and interest are incredibly closely linked especially when a persons brain is still developing. I would also assume that enhanced hearing ability is pretty important for being a musician. This is all just one example though out of many.### Human: Hmm, no I hadn't seen that statistic about perfect pitch. As a musician, I don't think of perfect pitch as anything more than a cool trick, anyone playing a song is going to know what key its in and all that so perfect pitch does nothing. But you're right, his hearing is very likely better due to his blindness. I just don't think being better at hearing past being able to identify intervals or chord types makes you a better musician. Most anyone can hear intricacies of music given they pay enough attention. You don't need to be daredevil to appreciate music. I do agree with you in that his blindness in some ways caused his interests and skills to lead him towards music. I just don't think his musical ability, ceteris paribus, is better due to his blindness.### Assistant: That may be a valid viewpoint and I am willing to concede it for arguments sake. What about the other points I made, are they not convincing to you also? I am not talking about gains that could not also be achieved by an able bodied person, but rather are forced out of a person due to difficult circumstances. In other words, OP claimed that a disabled person gains nothing but pity. Do you agree? What about people skills and creativity for dyslexic people and resourcefulness, mental strength and determination for many other disabled people? Those don't seem controversial or far fetched, but maybe I am missing something. I actually disagree about perfect pitch obviously, but I have a lot to say and I don't want to overdue it on something that is mostly trivial to my main point. I also agree it isn't a necessity since I don't have perfect pitch either, but that wasn't my point. Anyway, if nothing else, you admit that his interest may have been caused by being blind and I will take it. Interest and ability are often pretty closely related especially when a persons brain is still developing. Again, an able bodied person can also have interest and practice certain skills, but it is less likely when they don't have to compensate for something.### Human: Second paragraph I'm with you. I see you're point now and I do concede that disabilities, or really any life experience, can cause a person to develop differently (sometimes this means better). It is really the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Having a disability makes your nature worse, but may lead to a better nurture if that makes sense. It seems to me your argument focuses more on the outcomes of having a disability, which you correctly state, are not entirely bad. However, a disabled person has less faculty over their body and their life is made difficult by this. An idiot-savant for example, may have an amazing ability but struggles in many other parts of life. Just because your disability makes you better at something, doesn't mean it makes you better at everything. The bad does not cancel the good nor the good the bad. In this way, a person is disabled. Now I do think the terms OP offers aren't mutually exclusive. But there is not doubt that the alternatives to handicapped are noting more than attempt to abstract a gruesome reality is a cloak of PCness. So to OP, you're not wrong, you're just an asshole :).### Assistant: Cool, I'm with you for the most part. I didn't say it to you, but I did say in another post that they are in fact disabled, but if you change the way you frame the issue, they can also be differently-abled. If I had thought of it in my first post I would have said they are not mutually exclusive. I admit they are used mostly for PC reasons, but I don't think that is the whole story. Just because it is used mostly to make people feel empowered, doesn't mean it doesn't also have some grounding in reality, in my opinion. He is not wrong that they are disabled but he is wrong that you gain nothing from it. I'm not talking net gain necessarily, but I think you get the point, hah.

### Human: CMV: There is no reason why the Scandinavian model of government can't be scaled up to the United States### Assistant: scandinavian style socialism works under certain conditions, sure. contra most american conservatives, the societies it creates are quite nice to live in, as evidenced by high HDI and happiness scores in these nations. what's missed is that the conditions that make it possible are necessary. scandi socialism works in high trust homogeneous societies that do not have to devote many resources to defense/peacekeeping. the united states is not any of those things on a national level. in the scandi nations, they see themselves as paying into a commons that helps "people like me", not members of outgroups.### Human: Saying that the reason we can't be like Sweden because we spend too much on defense is like saying "I can't be fit because I don't workout".### Assistant: nb- i do not support the MIC in any capacity i am saying that not being forced to defend against serious external threats due to the hegemony of the US in the current environment allows them to fund a more lavish welfare state.### Human: Well that's simply not true. Sweden sat in the middle of WW1 and WW2, while being completely neutral and not being attacked, and the US had very little control over Europe at that time. And at the moment the only serious external threat is the US, but they're an ally.### Assistant: they did not get attacked because there were no pressing reasons TO attack them, not because their tiny military warded off invasion. absent US hegemony they would need to have an answer to russian regional dominance. not that russia could or would invade them, but forestalling dickish moves from russia would require a larger military than what they have.### Human: The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany did not attack then, they will not attack now, so defense is not neccessary. The US is defending Sweden as much as Somalia is, Sweden's not even in NATO. The EU have a defense agreement by the way, and the EU's united army is bigger and better equipped than Russia.### Assistant: it's amazing to me how contra all of recorded history people seem to adopt this idea that war is over and done with. sure, in the current environment, external threats are not looming for the nordic states....but things change. relying on the "EU's united army" is not a smart strategy. i will say internal conflicts are much more likely for sweden over the foreseeable future.### Human: This. It's so sad how people forget the lessons of history.

### Human: CMV: I consider the Nordic model the best socio-economic model to base a country around & the best compromise between the right and left### Assistant: Danish citizen here. It's tempting to want to agree with you, for the simple reason that we do indeed come out on top in most measurements of happiness, wealth, and a number of other statistics. There are some frequently cited drawbacks, however: 1. The "Jante Law" culture, which is a variant of the "Tall Poppy Syndrome", where excellence is actively discouraged. 2. The sometimes excessive xenophobia, indicating that the model largely works because of a high level of trust between citizens, and between citizens and the state. The introduction of foreign elements, where trust isn't an integral part of the culture, could theoretically sabotage the efficacy of the model. 3. The "Low Expectations" critique — maybe we're so damn happy because we don't expect much of life, and therefore real outcomes tend to match or exceed our expectations. Maybe our culture would create "happiness" under different circumstances as well, indicating that the model itself isn't what's creating these statistics, but rather some other factor, like culture or even genetics (as suggested by some admittedly fringe theories). 4. The wealth of Scandinavian countries is also the result of the same mechanisms that have created wealth in the rest of Europe, including most prominently exploitative colonialism. While Scandinavian countries were only minor colonial powers (most notably Denmark), they all benefited massively from trade with stronger colonial powers, like The Netherlands, United Kingdom, France, and to an extent Germany. The Nordic Model may have served to develop and distribute this wealth in a desirably way, but hasn't necessarily created the wealth in the first place. I don't particularly agree with all these criticisms, but they're worth considering. One relevant question, though: Do you think the Nordic Model is *the best possible system* or just *the best we have at the moment*? I think any Swede, Dane and Norwegian would say that they can point to flaws in our individual systems. Someone is always going to be at least a little bit dissatisfied, but allowing yourself to think that "this is the best we can do" is harmful, because our societies *do* have real problems as well, even if they're slightly smaller problems than some other nations face. One specific problem that I'm familiar with, because I'm Danish, is the fact that Danish societal coherence is largely based on *ethnic* and *cultural* homogeneity. This means that even if Denmark is doing great in the globalised economy, it is facing a massive *cultural* struggle, because there is no concept of Danish national identity that doesn't prescribe a very specific ethnic and cultural background. In a globalised world of many ethnicities, this becomes a real problem that manifests itself both in very high levels of xenophobia, but also in perpetual cultural insecurity, which makes it difficult to interact with people from other backgrounds. This is how the idiom of the "duck pond" (*andedam*) in Danish has emerged, as a metaphor not just for the country itself but for the slightly self-obsessed and self-important mentality of the Danes. Compare this with American national identity, which is to a large degree grounded in the Constitution of the United States of America, its rights, freedoms, and institutions, rather than any specific ethnicity or culture [although obviously a distinct American culture has emerged over the last century]. This isn't to downplay racial issues in America, but the point is that Danish minority identities aren't even hyphenated. It's "The Danes" and "The Muslims", not "The Danish Muslims".### Human: I recognize most of the critiques except for the "low expectations" explanation, first time I see it. I agree and also think it ties in with the nationalism. Most Scandinavians go through public school which tends to give a very favorable view of local and national government and its policies. Home schooling is *illegal* in Sweden. Also, Swedes and Danes are required by law to sign up for subscription to the government TV channels... The mental image that most people get ingrained is how Scandinavian Socialism is Best Socialism. You should be really happy that you get to pay taxes to and serve your Glorious Leaders! It's a sect-like happiness. Add to that how places like Denmark are in the top countries of per-capita consumption of antidepressants and other psychoactive medication (tax-funded!) Is it like the Soma of a Brave New World?### Assistant: They probably have the highest consumption of antidepressants because everyone has access to mental health care. A better measure would be how many suicides there are or something like that.### Human: Suicide rate is one of the harder things to get right as well, because many countries underreport for cultural reasons.### Assistant: I would guess that suicide rates more accurately depict mental health though, because the desire to hush up and downplay suicides is a pretty universal desire. Maybe I'm missing something but I haven't seen anything that shows one (first-world) country chronically underreporting suicides compared to the others. On the other hand having access to free mental health care and anti-depressants is a pretty marked and measurable difference between countries.### Human: Suicide is also a conscious decision, be it from a healthy or diseased mind. Culture has a strong impact on whether or not someone considers suicide a viable 'solution' to their problems, their likelihood in going through with it, and how their surroundings react. I'm willing to bet that Japan has a higher suicide rate than what a Westerner would expect from Japanese standards of living, simply because suicide has a different cultural significance in Japanese culture.

### Human: CMV: The Mainstream Media has made Trump successful in this election.### Assistant: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/how-media-interest-in-the-gop-candidates-compares-to-public-interest/ Very early on, it was pretty much everyone *but* Trump getting more media coverage than "grassroots" interest (Carson/Cruz/Paul/Rubio also have interest in line with media reporting). Look at Jeb Bush, do we need a CMV that the media was biased in favor of Jeb Bush? No, but I think we can all agree anyone not writing about Jeb would have lost their job when he eventually nabbed the nomination (which was the incorrect yet conventional wisdom) So, to me, it looks likes we have a very natural and understandable chain of events: 1) Famous man announces candidacy 2) Simultaneously interest and coverage of the candidacy is registered on google 3) Candidate with decent polling says ludicrous thing 4) Media covers candidate with polling saying ludicrous thing To blame the media for Trump you have to be willing to blame the people who read the headlines and claim to support him in polls. Without supporters he is not newsworthy and without readers, he does not get headlines. And yes, Trump is artfully using this voter/media/reader relationship to his benefit. That is about the only thing people can agree on this election cycle: Trump understands the media. Edit: 538 just added a new story about [Trump and media!](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-donald-trump-hacked-the-media/)! They point out that the first few months most headlines about Trump were simply stating his polling. In the fall, Trump survived a relative lull in the reporting of his campaign! I don't think this analyse goes well with your thesis.### Human: ∆ Though hard data like this is pretty hard to debunk, and you're right it pretty much destroys what I had previously thought, although it isn't quite complete for my view, it has shown me that at the very beginning more people searched it than the media was covering. But at that time frame. It's not quite complete for my latter half of my view. Basically I was thinking that it was exactly what happened to Jeb Bush. With that said, I still believe a lot of the reason he is doing so well has to do with his media coverage. A majority of headlines are about Trump running. Compare Rubio and Carson, for example; Rubio had very little attention before he started his campaign whereas Carson already had pretty good attention before his announcement for campaign. However, Rubio resulted in a higher threshold for both Media and Search than Carson did. If we apply the same thought process for Ben Carson's results as Trump's results there should have been an almost immediate response from Media and spike in searches, however, the data doesn't quite show what happened to Trump for search results as opposed to media coverage afterwards. If the trend, however high the results where for both media and search, it should hit a spike and roll back down to average or a little higher than normal like Cruz did. I also want to let you know that your second link only reaffirms my core belief that his media coverage serves him only better for support. What would have happened had the media not covered (albeit his survival of the "long period" of no media attention) would he have dropped continuously? I believe he would have. It was well played by him to have questionable comments about stopping Muslim refugees from entering the United States until it is better understood (which is not something out of the ordinary as Obama has done it before).### Assistant: > What would have happened had the media not covered (albeit his survival of the "long period" of no media attention) would he have dropped continuously? I believe he would have. Given Trump's stated policy positions, that would have been dereliction of duty on the part of the news media. In fact, many have argued that the media didn't cover his outrageousness *enough*, failing to highlight how absurd and out of the mainstream his claims and proposals are.### Human: So you're saying he needs more media attention?### Assistant: Yes, of a critical sort. Rather than coverage of how popular he is, or coverage of his empty lectern, we need coverage and analysis of his proposals and statements.### Human: Alright, I don't mean to break it to you, but this is what got him popular...### Assistant: I've heard a lot of criticism that the media is to blame for Trump, but frankly, Trump gets ratings. People, whether they love or hate him, are interested in Trump. If the media didn't cover him it would be blatant manipulation of the political process, and I would far rather the media cover what people will read than attempt to deliver a favored political outcome.

### Human: CMV: It is effectively useless to ask presidential/primary debate candidates how they would have handled situations in the past### Assistant: You are right that hindsight questions don't reveal what they really would have done. But they can still provide a lot of insight into their beliefs and thought process. "It's 1968. You were just elected. Do you pour more troops into Vietnam, or pull them all out?" "It's 2014. Russia just invaded Crimea. What is your response?" I can pretty much guarantee that Bernie would answer those differently than the Republicans. Other questions about the past are as you suggest inane, knowing as we do now that Iraq doesn't have WMDs or that Hitler wasn't going to be appeased. But the right ones can still be very thought provoking. The problem with hypotheticals is that there are so many variables in play. Like, in your example what's going on with ISIS, the Taliban and the Russian economy when the India/Pakistan dispute arises. Who are the leaders of each country? What do they have to gain or lose by the conflict? Do we currently have troops elsewhere? How is the US economy? What do our allies think? When you use a historical example, all of those variables can be answered. It's also useful because most listeners with an interest in history/foreign affairs have an opinion about what should have been done, and you can compare your views to those espoused by the candidates.### Human: That's a fair point, but I feel like these questions don't give much in terms of substance and just give the candidates an opportunity to pander by being revisionists. It seems like all of these questions end in people making ridiculous claims about how history would have played out differently if they were in charge, basically armchair quarterbacking.### Assistant: The problem isn't the questions, it's the answers - and the fact that the "moderators" don't call them on the bullshit. Your hypotheticals would be far worse from an armchair quarterback POV, because it would be a lot harder to hold them accountable. With a historical question, you can actually say, "But Britain said that they wouldn't have attacked if the US wasn't participating" or "But 80% of political scientists say that the biggest problem was that the state department had no plans in place for managing an occupied Iraq which is why the country destabilized". A hypothetical lets them go on a flight of fancy where, say, the candidate meets with the leaders of India and Pakistan, and convinces them to attack Putin instead. How can you counter that?### Human: I think that a intrrviewee going off on a flight of fancy would be revealing enough.### Assistant: Did you see the debate? Somehow, inane responses don't seem to deter supporters.

### Human: CMV: Users on reddit have been significantly overreacting to the recent drama revolving around Victoria and the admins.### Assistant: I think we're seeing some appropriate reactions and some overreactions, for sure. And you are correct, we are reacting without all of the relevant information. We probably are seeing the beginning of Reddit's end. The site is getting too big and the admins are too focused on monetizing it. They do not seem to realize that the communities are what made the site strong to begin with. As more and more of this bullshit mounts, better alternatives to Reddit will emerge and more of us will migrate there. Reddit has more problems than Ellen Pao. Too many Redditors seem to think that simply firing Pao will suddenly fix all of these problems. I think many admins are to blame, and Pao is just the scapegoat. Overall, I think people are mostly voicing their opinions, which isn't a bad thing.### Human: What relevant information is missing? Even if Victoria was rightfully fired in a totally legitimate way, it was still sudden and without any communication to the modteams of many subs that heavily relied upon her. That's a fact. This caused a few high-profile AMAs that were planned to be cancelled... that's also a fact. Those two things alone are enough to be pissed, but pile that upon the fact that the new admins have generally been shit, and it was just the straw that broke the camels back. Here's a comment by someone that explains a lot. https://imgur.com/z8uBXo0 Even if Pao wasn't directly responsible, she is... she's CEO, she's responsible for every single thing that happens in this company. If her employees are doing things without her blessing, thats on her for shit management.### Assistant: If my boss decided to fire a coworker of mine for some legitimate reason, he wouldn't tell me before the fact. Letting someone go is often sudden because you don't want to risk the employee finding out and ruining stuff in rage. It would suck for me, as suddenly I'd have to cover my coworker's job and mine, but that's the way life works. Hopefully my boss has a plan to lighten my load and fix the extra work problem, and if not I'm job hunting for sure. However, he's under no obligation, or even expectation to report that to me. Likewise the Reddit Admins. They do not report to the mods. I don't understand why these people feel like they have some sort of right to this information.### Human: She wasn't there coworker, they were more or less her clients. You don't think Reddit benefits from having AMA's done by high profile people?### Assistant: Now where did I say I don't think the high profile AMAs weren't good? I am saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat (as the saying goes). They could develop a new system or even hire someone else to take that part of Reddit in a different direction. You, and the mods, have every right to be upset about her termination. I just don't think it's right to expect any advanced warning about it.

### Human: CMV: People who say that homeless people are privileged for being white, should also admit that African-Americans are privileged for living in a highly developed country### Assistant: I mean, the whole point of talking about terms like "white privilege", and "straight privilege", and "male privilege", is **exactly** to distinguish the various privileges that people have, from each other, instead of simply claiming that some people are "privileged" and others are not. "First world privilege" or "western privilege" is not an often heard valiation, but it fits right into the intended format.### Human: It not often heard because it doesn't fit into the victim narrative. You rarely hear an acknowledgement of their class privilege arguments out of the expensive university.### Assistant: Why wouldn't it fit into that narrative? It would be a great opportunity to categorize another group as oppressed, that is third world populations, that largely intersect with non-white people anyways.### Human: Because then they need to admit that they themselves have a privilege and it in validates the reason it's typically used. Lets be real here. 95% of the time privilege is handled outside of a sociological context it used to shame or guilt the person as a logical fallacy to invalidate what they are saying by poisoning the well or appealing to non objective view of situations.### Assistant: So, you only ever hear the concept be talked about by non-white transwomen? Because it's most commonly used prefixes would explicitly admit a kind of privilege to everyone else.### Human: You forgot handicapped. The privilege self flanging happens by guilty cis het people yes. But it's done on a stage so everyone can see what a good person they are. In context of ops original point. We are talking about people using the word privileged as a sin. I can dredge up a plethora of Tumblrites and college students acting out over someone else being more privilege, but most often, it's used as a guilt tactic. This is why third world poverty is so largely ignored in the context op is talking about### Assistant: But why would it be? If it means what you think it means, then American-privilege would provide *a whole new layer* of opportunity for all those self-hating cishet white men to intentionally feel guilty about.### Human: They are mimicking the crowd they are trying to get vindication from and these people focus victimhood within America either from American education failure or not wanting to devalue their status is debatable

### Human: CMV: Welfare Destroyed Black America.### Assistant: Correlation is not causation. >For instance, being married and having a combined income makes it harder to get government assistance, at the same time having children increases government assistance. Because of this, there has been an incredible rise in single parent households If you think single black women are having children in order to get welfare that's an absolutely ridiculous accusation. I feel like your explanation is the "welfare queen" straw man. I don't think very many people like this exist. People Love their children. More than likely they will spend more on a child than the welfare bonus provides. Something to consider about weddings is that unless you get married in the courthouse it costs a good amount of money. Money people in poverty aren't likely to have, especially considering a "shotgun" wedding of sorts. You think people in poverty have the money for a wedding and then immediately a kid? With black people disproportionately in poverty this is force against marriage and therefore "married births" Another thing to consider is what about unmarried couples raising children together? Is the assumption that unmarried births mean mothers literally living on their own with the child? I don't think that's fair, and I don't think that marriage creates a more legitimate father. As others have said, the war on drugs and disproportionate incarceration rates have taken more fathers away than anything else. I think you may be right in a way. Without welfare a bigger portion of black people would be out of poverty. Not because people actually choose to be on welfare over working, but because some people would literally starve to death. You have to prove the idea that people want to be on welfare instead of working when they have the opportunity. When is comes down to it there are 2 stable possibilities to keep people on welfare. 1. People on welfare want to get off welfare but there are no opportunities to do so 2. People on welfare don't want to get off welfare but there are opportunities to do so. You have to prove #2 before you can start making all these assumptions based upon that.### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: Im saying that the basis of your argument is that they happened at the same time and I don't know what else could have done it so this has to be it. If welfare is the cause. What would have happened to the single parents without welfare to make them not single parents? Would they not have had sex? Would the missing parent have cared more about the child to stick around? Why?### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: >many fathers left the household in the 60s because it made more financial sense This is an assumption. We know there were more single mothers, but you can't say that the fathers left for that reason. Your sources are opinion pieces using the same statistics to pose the same points. There is no interviews, no surveys, no anything where you see a large number of people saying "I left my child because I thought they would be better off with welfare than with another parent." This is what I'm contesting. I think single parenthood is a result of multiple things. As I said, fathers being incarcerated has an impact, but I think the main factor is that more and more women work, and it is more societally acceptable to be an independent woman. Welfare helps women live on there own. All of these things together make it so women aren't forced to live with and depend on men they dislike. This is why there are more single parents. Welfare has an impact sure but "destroyed black culture" is a strong way to describe women being able to live without the support of a man.### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: So you have one opinion from a ultraconservative black man who can speak for generalities across all black neighborhoods from a single perspective? If I google this opinion I will find people with it, but that is true of the opposite as well. STATISTICS PROVE CORRELATION. They are not on your side, they just are. This argument comes dangerously close to being that society was better when women were forced to be homemakers, and that trapping unhappy couples together makes good children. Society has changed. Maybe at one time wives were so content with subservience that they made decent children without outward unhappiness but that time is over. Allowing women to have the choice to be on their own does not ruin culture. Men who abandon children would not be good fathers if they were one way or another forced to live there. You are comparing single mothers to two parents who chose to be with their children. That's not a fair comparison. It would be fair if you somehow could compare to parents forced against their will to be there, but those don't exist. Both of our opinions don't have proof. Both are supported by the same statistics. There is an exact parallel to this argument: Vaccines cause autism. Autism symptoms start to show up around the time children are vaccinated. There's no real proof of what else causes autism. If you google it you will find all kinds of people saying their children didn't have autism until they were vaccinated and vaccines cause autism, But correlation doesn't mean causation. When you study the rate of autism across unvacinated vs vacinated people there just isn't a connection. Now if we had multiple other United States with and without welfare maybe we could solve this one for sure, but the fact is we just can't. When it comes down to it, if you honestly believe people will sell out a relationship with their child for welfare than I'm not going to change that, but don't go around pretending like it's the only thing those statistics can mean, and that you have proof of it.### Human: [deleted]

### Human: CMV: Some of (if not all) the worst outcomes for climate change are inevitable given our geopolitical structure### Assistant: Trump just needs the right motivation. He wants economic nationalism. He wants to make taxation less progressive. Those both play easily into fighting global warming, if progressives decide that they care about fighting global warming more than equality. He's a dealmaker. Put up high carbon taxes, and trade away corporate and income taxes for it so that we have a net taxation decrease. He'll go for it in a New York minute - why not? It'll make taxation less progressive and put it on production. Meanwhile force all imports into the US to pay those same kinds of taxes - he'd go for that too, because he's not a free trader. All we need is for progressives to say that climate change is a real problem worthy of a real deal that Trump and Republicans would take. Then he'd believe in it or at least take that deal. Right now he doesn't believe in it because the people who do believe in it keep proposing plans they would support anyway even if it weren't real. If they were willing to sacrifice something important to them (like economic fairness) to achieve it, he'd be much more likely to believe it. Or to take the deal anyway.### Human: None of that addresses the issues of developing countries. Again, even if the US were to suddenly become carbon neutral there's still the rest of the world that can't afford to do that.### Assistant: But they'd have to do it for anything they sold in the US or Europe. That would be a huge impact because so much of what these developing countries are producing is for export to the US or Europe.### Human: Current trade laws don't allow developed countries to punish countries that aren't "green enough".### Assistant: Trump is already talking about renegotiating trade laws, so that's kind of moot. But I think they actually do permit countries to impose the same tax on imports as they impose on domestically produced goods. The tax in question being "for every ton of carbon emitted to produce this good, $X, and if you can't show your supply chain it [can't be sold]||[taxed at high assumptions of carbon production].

### Human: CMV: I believe all these new people moving to America should learn to speak Algonquian.### Assistant: Algonquian, please! The ones that brought white warriors with them are deep in Powhatan country, they need to learn Powhatan! And they will if they have respect for our people. I'll bet they feel pretty stupid not being able to understand us! (Translation provided by translate.google.com)### Human: I didn't think one of these April Fools posts would do such a good job pointing out the absurdity of the "'Murica spaek english" position. I'm unexpectedly and thoroughly pleased.### Assistant: You... don't understand the concept of wanting migrants living in the US to embrace a single language which already has global dominance, extreme versatility, and is spoken unilaterally by all members of the United States?### Human: extreme versatility? meaning what? i think the main point is that english speakers are privledged, and are arrogantly exercising their power on a simple might-makes-right basis.### Assistant: The entire purpose of language is to be able to communicate with others. If you don't speak the language of the majority of the people around you, you are failing at a basic human task, regardless of where you are and what language it is.

### Human: CMV: Reddit's typical "so edgy" response to criticism of religion isn't a rebuttal, and should be viewed as an admission of the validity of the criticism.### Assistant: > I realize that the "so edgy" response if often made half-jokingly, which is completely fine. My only problem is that I get the feeling that people view it as a legitimate response to serious criticisms. Like it's a some magic bullet that defeats all anti-religious criticisms. I feel that in the end it kills the conversation, and makes fruitful discussion much less likely. What makes you think this is the case? I agree that it stops the discussion - but it seems to me that is the point. People get fed up with seeing thee criticisms pop up and dismiss them with throwaway lines. I don't think anyone is under the delusion that "so edgy" is a meaningful addition to the discussion. It doesn't make much sense to view such a dismissal as an admission that the criticism is valid. First of all, how valid an argument is not not dependant on responses at all. An argument's validity is dependant on itself and only itself. Secondly, often people just plain aren't looking to continue a discussion. There's nothing compelling someone to respond to an argument, and any kind of dismissal can only be seen as a refusal to participate. But just because someone doesn't want to play the game it doesn't mean you've beaten them.### Human: >I don't think anyone is under the delusion that "so edgy" is a meaningful addition to the discussion. I wouldn't argue that they believe that it's meaningful, but that they believe it's a legitimate way to respond to serious criticism - obviously they realize that they're not offering a logical rebuttal, but it's used as a kill-all response to criticism, and I think those types of responses should be discouraged because they so often stop the conversation before it can begin. > It doesn't make much sense to view such a dismissal as an admission that the criticism is valid. First of all, how valid an argument is not not dependant on responses at all. I agree with this, and I think my problem is with the way I worded it. I would say, instead, that the "so edgy" response is an indicator that the person has no real response to the criticism, not that the criticism is then valid. That was a mistake on my part. >There's nothing compelling someone to respond to an argument, and any kind of dismissal can only be seen as a refusal to participate. But just because someone doesn't want to play the game it doesn't mean you've beaten them. Obviously this is true, but I think a good analogy for the "so edgy" response would be someone not wanting to play a game so they pop a hole in the ball to discourage others from playing. I think it's important to note the distinction between refusing to participate, and attempting to stop the game. The latter of which shouldn't be praised.### Assistant: > I wouldn't argue that they believe that it's meaningful, but that they believe it's a legitimate way to respond to serious criticism - obviously they realize that they're not offering a logical rebuttal, but it's used as a kill-all response to criticism, and I think those types of responses should be discouraged because they so often stop the conversation before it can begin. But that conversation isn't always worth having in every instance people criticise religion. I'm fine with discouraging remarks that kill conversation, but let's not pretend that all conversations are always worth having. > I agree with this, and I think my problem is with the way I worded it. I would say, instead, that the "so edgy" response is an indicator that the person has no real response to the criticism, not that the criticism is then valid. That was a mistake on my part. Or they didn't feel like typing out their real response in that particular instance. It's dangerous thinking to assume you're winning arguments when nobody else is playing along. > Obviously this is true, but I think a good analogy for the "so edgy" response would be someone not wanting to play a game so they pop a hole in the ball to discourage others from playing. I think it's important to note the distinction between refusing to participate, and attempting to stop the game. The latter of which shouldn't be praised. Reddit's style doesn't seem to preclude other people from continuing the discussion. Just because someone says "so edgy" it doesn't mean that now no one can participate. I'm not so sure your analogy is very good.### Human: > I'm fine with discouraging remarks that kill conversation, but let's not pretend that all conversations are always worth having. I think I covered this when I said that not all criticisms deserve serious replies. I think it would be much more productive if the person that wasn't willing to have that conversation simply didn't. No reply, is in my opinion, preferable when you're dealing with a serious attempt at discussion. It doesn't detract from the possibility of two people who want to have the discussion having it. >Reddit's style doesn't seem to preclude other people from continuing the discussion. Just because someone says "so edgy" it doesn't mean that now no one can participate. I'm not so sure your analogy is very good. Reddit doesn't force people to not have the conversation in that manner, clearly. But I'd argue that, more often than not, it stops it by turning the thread into a sort of circlejerk, which is less likely to attract serious discussion.### Assistant: But the beauty of reddit is there is probably a sub where you can have the meaningful discussion you want to have. Maybe /r/pics (or whatever) isn't the place for this kind of discussion, maybe you want to be posting in /r/debateachristian. I suppose at this point I don't see what the problem is.### Human: I agree, but the other beautiful thing is that you can have those meaningful discussion on /r/pics, or heart touching comments on /r/wtf. I think attempting to stop those from happening because it's not the designated subreddit is silly.### Assistant: Apparently, you can't have those discussions in those subs if someone posting one throwaway line is completely shutting them down.### Human: This is going in circles, so I'll just clarify one more time, and then I think it'd be best to put this to rest. >Apparently, you can't have those discussions in those subs if someone posting one throwaway line is completely shutting them down. >>Reddit doesn't force people to not have the conversation in that manner, clearly. But I'd argue that, more often than not, it stops it by turning the thread into a sort of circlejerk, which is less likely to attract serious discussion.### Assistant: I think you've changed the scope of your CMV here. Now instead of it being about a lack of a rebuttal, it's about stifling conversation...but only sometimes since you acknowledge that there doesn't always need to be conversation. Frankly, I'm not sure what could change your view at this point. "Sometimes people on reddit stop having conversations" is both correct and just the nature of reddit itself.### Human: I don't think I have. I think the problem I have with it is fundamentally the same. The "so edgy" (can be replaced with: "atheists are so preachy", "so brave", etc.) type of response isn't a rebuttal, it shouldn't be used in response to serious criticism. And *if it is*, it shouldn't be taken seriously. I admitted in the OP that: >I realize that the "so edgy" response if often made half-jokingly, which is completely fine. >I only think this is the case so long as the criticism is attempting to make a serious point >I don't necessarily think that all anti-religious claims (like simple assertions such as "religion is for idiots") should be taken as serious criticisms, and as a result, aren't necessarily asking for a serious response. In these cases, I've admitted that the usage of that type of response can be justifiable. But I think it's an immature thing to do when there may be real conversation to be had, and making comments when they're only purpose is to stop the conversation (in this specific case, I'm talking about the blatant dismissal of anti-religious ideas just because) shouldn't be encouraged like it often is on reddit.

### Human: No country has the "right" to exist. The most important right is the right of a person to be fairly represented in their own government. CMV### Assistant: Let me know if I have your view correct: 1. No country has the right to exist (right being undefined). 2. Citizens have the right to a roughly fair and equal chance and outcome by living in a legitimate government (legitimate being undefined). 3. Theoretically a democracy could be legitimate and should then/or because of have/having support of the citizens (support being undefined). What's fair, right, legitimate, and support? I can't tell what you're getting at. Are you saying some people aren't getting what others have as far as what a government provides? Do you have examples?### Human: Yes I'm exactly saying some people aren't getting what others have when it comes to what government provides. Some governments do not good free and fair elections and others abuse minorities or specific groups in order to maintain power for the ruling party it elite. 1. People talk about rights a lot so I'm using someone else's definition here. " Israel/Palestine has the right to exist. America or native American tribes have the right to exist. China with is current territorial holdings has a right to exist, etc" you can substitute. 2. Legitimate meaning it has the support of the people. Illegitimate governments SHOULD be changed in Some way. That could be an overthrow off the government to a competent new democracy, or changing internal rolls within the existing system. 3. Support meaning the citizens should participate in government and not attempt to violently overthrow it.### Assistant: Rights are an incredibly nebulous topic that philosophers have been circling about for centuries. According to Hobbes, no one has any rights because we're all in a constant state of warfare. We survive by giving up some freedom for protection. So what are you entitled to? Who entitles you? At the end of the day, no one has any inalienable rights beyond what we've all agreed to. So if you have any rights a country must have rights to exist, because without that country's existence no authority could recognize your rights in the first place. Anarchists claim that we could all just get along, but the first organized group to come in is going to sweep you aside and their rights are immediately going to dominate. What makes a government legitimate? Accurately expressing the will of the people? Again, legitimacy for a government has no real meaning except what we all agree on. In the past, this mostly came down to force. Today, with improved quality of life and enough free time to ask these sort of questions, we factor in representation for whatever reason. But you wouldn't survive long enough to ask these questions if society hadn't evolved over millenia through a history of violence to get where we are today. Was the Roman Empire an illegitimate government? How about the Chinese emperors who ruled for 2000 years? Were the Greek democracies fair who represented landed males? Or how about any of these compared to Ghengis Khan? Today we talk about the right to exist for several reasons. Because we have enough excess time and empathy to concern ourselves with things we would have once ignored. But moreso for international power struggles. If you ever look at geopolitics on a large scale you see things like US support of Israel have little to do with how the president personally feels about Zionism. These views predominate Reddit, but not world politics. At the end of the day, rights and legitimacy are entirely human constructs. If you choose to define them in such a way that you recognize yourself but not your government, be aware that the government may disagree. They have the power to do a lot more about it than you do.### Human: ∆ This delta is awarded to you and the other submitters supporting the logical argument that there is no such thing as "rights" and "legitimacy" and that they're entirely human constructs. This isn't the answer I was looking for, but its a fair answer none the less. If something is judged to be a right, then the immediate questions that follow are "who guarantees that right" and "what does this right guarantee". Since the force behind the right is a human construct, the rights themselves are constructs as well. Countries don't have the right to exist because nothing greater than the country supports the country, it simply exists and supports itself.### Assistant: Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/alphaglobe. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/alphaglobe)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][[Subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaBot/)]

### Human: CMV: There is no cultural appropriation.### Assistant: Cultural Appropriation is not the free exchange of cultures. There's no problem with that, it is natural that human groups would exchange ideas and elements of their cultures willingly. The problem is when a majority culture co-opts a minority culture without A) any due respect (see: Native American Headdresses being used as a fashion statement) or B) a lack of awareness or even disdain for the culture they're appropriation (see: Iggy Azaela and some of her more racially charged statements). It isn't a black and white issue at all, and there are fuzzy lines. We see this come up a lot when it comes to Halloween costumes, and it isn't difficult to see why. When you take someone's cultural identity and make it into a stereotypical costume it becomes clear that you have no real respect or admiration for the culture. You just think it's funny to wear a sombrero.### Human: Does that mean that if you wear plaid without being Scottish or without awareness to its cultural significance to Scotland, that you are guilty of cultural appropriation? Why is wearing plaid because you want to wear plaid different from wearing a sombrero because you want to wear a sombrero?### Assistant: > Does that mean that if you wear plaid without being Scottish or without awareness to its cultural significance to Scotland, that you are guilty of cultural appropriation? What do you mean by "wear plaid"? Wearing a flannel shirt is not Scottish. But wearing someone else's tartan as a kilt sure is. It is interesting that you bring this up as an example, because I was at the Renn Fest last month with a friend of mine who is Scottish, and was *very* annoyed at all of the people sporting kilts but clearly having no idea how to properly do it or with tartans that were generic and obviously touristy. There's no hard and fast rule here, it's more of a case by case basis thing. Edit: I don't really get why conversations like this always shake out into some kind of trap. Like if you find one example that might be cultural appropriation but on the surface maybe it might not be then the whole system should be called into question. It's like when people bring up the Vikings in discussions about the Redskins. My response is always, "woah well maybe we shouldn't have a team named Vikings!" which is usually not the conclusion the person wanted me to come to.### Human: Actually, you know what? You post made me realize something very important. My original question is not actually a valid question. Cultural appropriation is not "real or not real", it is. I just don't believe that it's a bad thing. For example, I'm Chinese, and I've seen some pretty terrible Chinese tattoos. But when I see them, I don't get angry. In fact, I enjoy them. And you know what? I've seen Chinese people put just random English onto something for no reason, and I enjoy that too. I just have a different outlook on the whole thing than most other people. In my mind, people can dress in whatever they want. So anyone can wear a stereotypical costume of anyone. Call your teams whatever you want. Call them the Chinamen, I don't care. In fact, please do, it's the only way we can get a Chinese person into the NFL. So ∆ on it existing, I just don't believe that it's negative thing that needs to be looked down on.### Assistant: Here's an example of how it can hurt. Jazz music was appropriated from black musicians several times in its history. The first was in the swing era in the 20s and 30s when jazz was starting to become popular but white people didn't want black musicians to perform in their dance halls. So a bunch of white jazz big bands that were far worse than their black counterparts suddenly pushed the black musicians out of the dance halls. These white musicians who played a watered down version of the original got all of the money and fame from an art form that grew specifically out of black culture. This happened two or three more times in the development of jazz music.### Human: I can sort of see where you're coming from but that sounds more like blatant racism and segregation rather than cultural appropriation. The white jazz bands weren't making a mockery as the white audience didn't want black people to play so they filled them in with white people. That isn't appropriation, that's segregation. The white musicians were a result and not a cause. I'm upvoting you because I agree with your initial statement but the example could be better :)### Assistant: > I can sort of see where you're coming from but that sounds more like blatant racism and segregation rather than cultural appropriation. Two things can be happening at the same time.

### Human: I cannot see any reason for the "T" in the LGBT movement. CMV### Assistant: Both are very closely tied to gender norms. That's also why they're allied with (mainstream) feminism. Both also tend to have similar opposition, the religious right. So, common problems and common solutions would be what I think ties them together.### Human: You would not believe how much shit gets flung between the LGBTIQetc movement and the (mainstream) feminist movement. I would hardly call us allies.### Assistant: I'm aware that not all feminists are as accepting as others, and there are some schools of feminist thought that essentially demonize LGBTQ (especially T) individuals. There are also LGBTQ individuals who are not accepting of cis straight people, and sexists in all camps. But, for the most part, I think most feminists consider themselves friends of, or members of, the LGBTQ community. But I could just be subject to bias, since all of my feminist groups lean so far to the left.### Human: I think *all* egalitarians consider themselves friends of the community, but all of the self-described feminists I know are... Kind of evil. Just a little bit. Then again, I've never liked the word feminism. It was probably a great word back when gender and sex issues were as black-and-white "men are being evil to women" simple as they were before I was born, but now it's like someone saying that they're going to take a sledgehammer to a cake because it tastes bad. Egalitarianism yay?### Assistant: > Kind of evil. Just a little bit. > > > > Then again, I've never liked the word feminism. It was probably a great word back when gender and sex issues were as black-and-white "men are being evil to women" simple as they were before I was born, but now it's like someone saying that they're going to take a sledgehammer to a cake because it tastes bad. > > > > Egalitarianism yay? Many egalitarianists don't just tend downwards they rocket there. Their creed is "*I don't care* what ..."### Human: What do you mean by tend downwards?### Assistant: Their demand is for equality. Enforced equality. Why wouldn't that be equality with the lowest of the low or by the lowest of the low on their terms. No enforced equality can be enforced without the help of the government and no government is ever going to do anything with people unless it is a way of making people both more dependent on them and more redundant to their own lives.

### Human: CMV: Identifying as a "gamer" is meaningless### Assistant: If I tell someone I'm a gamer, it's because I want them to know that I consider video games to be a hobby of mine. People usually understand it as such. Why is it meaningless? I'd say calling yourself a reader or a music aficionado accomplishes the same thing. Everyone reads and listens to music to some degree, but not everyone considers those things to be important parts of their lives.### Human: I'd argue that people call themselves gamers after playing an iOS game or two, as well. Considering that those types of games (Flappy Bird, Angry Birds, Plants Vs. Zombies) aren't hobby worthy, I would say that playing games allows you to identify as a gamer even if you don't consider video games a hobby.### Assistant: Who calls themselves gamers after playing an iOS game or two?### Human: I genuinely know people who call themselves gamers and have never played a console (Portable or Home) or PC game in their life.### Assistant: Presumably they do so because they find something appealing about the label. It's not uncommon for people to adopt a label simply because they see some commonality with or idolise other people who identify with it or. In other cases, they just like the style. You get it a lot in music; people calling themselves punks because they just bought the latest Green Day album, or goths because they like Marilyn Manson's new song. And you get people who call themselves nerds because they like the style and enjoyed the latest Star Trek film. The more hardcore people from most groups will often deride these people as pretentious kids, who don't actually know anything about the thing they're identifying with, but really there are no gatekeepers controlling who gets to identify with what label, and almost everyone's first experience with a particular media will be that which is most mainstream. I think the reason you get this kind of labelling/identification so much, is due to young people trying to discover themselves, to establish an identity. Trying to figure out who they are, and to belong to a group.### Human: So they're the minority of people who identify, then?

### Human: CMV: Nothing that requires action or work or money on the part of others can ever be a "right."### Assistant: The word "right" clearly has several different usages, not all of which are strictly legal in nature. When someone asserts that you have a "right" to free health care, they generally don't mean "the Bill of Rights of the US constitution states that we should get free health care." They mean something like "It is a moral imperative for each individual to receive health care, regardless of their ability to pay for it or contribution to society." Obviously, you are perfectly free to disagree with that statement if your moral intuitions don't line up with it. But it's rather beside the point to say it's not a "right"- "right" a common term in moral dialogues, and the moral concept of a "duty" is linked to rights. It makes sense to say we have a moral duty to rescue a drowning child (a positive action) so we might coherently say that someone has a right to be saved by someone if that comes at no cost to the savior.### Human: >It makes sense to say we have a moral duty to rescue a drowning child (a positive action) so we might coherently say that someone has a right to be saved by someone if that comes at no cost to the savior. Rights can only be negative(what others must not do), since any positive rights require effective enslavement of fellow man. One is not wrong by letting child drown if he wasn't the one who caused the drowning.### Assistant: >any positive rights require effective enslavement of fellow man That's rather absurd hyperbole. Negative rights entail burdens on other individuals, too. In fact, you could construct actual slavery based entirely on strong property rights- suppose someone is plopped down in a land where all land and natural resources are already owned. Then, in order to survive, someone could force that individual to sign a contract that is literal slavery in order to gain access to resources. Obviously, any reasonable libertarian would think that there are other rights that apply as well so that this situation doesn't occur, but these aren't a consequence of purely having negative rights.### Human: >Negative rights entail burdens on other individuals, too Correct, what one must not do. However it is reasonable not to murder or steal. >someone is plopped down in a land where all land and natural resources are already owned. Then, in order to survive, someone could force that individual to sign a contract that is literal slavery in order to gain access to resources. Very good example, however private owner is incentivised to provide a good service to you, since you could refuse to sign it and kill him if the terms of contract are so bad, even government cant enforce straight up labor camps in america since people are well armed, mind control and obfuscation must be used. >Obviously, any reasonable libertarian would think that there are other rights that apply as well so that this situation doesn't occur, but these aren't a consequence of purely having negative rights. Obviously common sense must be used, but we are talking real world now not hypothetical examples, people claiming that healthcare is a right or living wage is a right are effectively enslaving fellow men.### Assistant: >people claiming that healthcare is a right or living wage is a right are effectively enslaving fellow men Again, that's a rather silly exaggeration. But even if you believe that, what I was saying is that it's not a unique or necessary consequence of positive rights to impose burdens on others or place them in situations that resemble slavery. You might say that everyone has a right to life, and that this entails that you must save someone if there is little or no cost to yourself. This imposes far less of an actual burden on individuals than enforcing property rights as they apply to natural resources- if someone owns a river, far more actual work and time might be used by individuals going to another river, or exchanging your own resources for water, than it would take to perhaps once in your life drag someone out of a body of water.### Human: >Again, that's a rather silly exaggeration It is not, like you explained bellow if you think healthcare or sustaining life is a human right that necessarily implies that other people must go over their heads to provide you with sustenance or healthcare as one of their primary goals. Which is simply ridiculous and wrong. >property rights It's a tool, it can be used in predatory means or it can be used to minimise conflict in society. Same with any other rights, it can be used by predators (getting things i want at gun point in expense of everyobody else) or by libertarians (grant as much freedom as possible)### Assistant: I'm not trying to argue that any particular good (like healthcare or food) is a right here, or than any particular right is harmful (like property rights). That would require some arguments from a specific moral framework, which is off-topic. (And it's not like I'm against property rights anyway.) I'm simply saying that the distinction between positive and negative rights can't be made on the basis that positive rights impose burdens on others. A positive right might place a very light burden on individuals, while a negative right might place a heavy one. You can't argue that healthcare can't be right just because it would require other people to make that part of their daily lives- what's inherently wrong about that? It's part of our daily lives not to trespass, for example, or to refrain from voyeuristic urges. If you want to argue that there exists a distinction, you have to make a metaethical claim based on how rights are derived in the first place. In other words, you have to answer the question of why we have rights at all, and what guarantees them. There's no inherent difference in what a negative or positive right requires of individuals on a daily basis.### Human: >You can't argue that healthcare can't be right just because it would require other people to make that part of their daily lives That is not my argument, i am trying to argue that its sensible to define right as what forbids certain action by other people which impacts you. For example, would you agree if i say "i have a right to 5% of your income"? Of course not, but when government claims the same thing, people usually agree. This is inconsistent and illogical. >If you want to argue that there exists a distinction, you have to make a metaethical claim based on how rights are derived in the first place. Cannot make such claims, just trying to appeal to common sense and consistency.### Assistant: >i am trying to argue that its sensible to define right as what forbids certain action by other people which impacts you The thing is, we generally *don't* talk about rights that way. You can define things however you like, but this just isn't common usage. Most people would probably say there may very well be a situation where you have the right to 5% of my income- child support, perhaps. >Cannot make such claims, just trying to appeal to common sense and consistency. There isn't really a contradiction in how most people use the term "right," and it's common sense for most people to hold that some things are rights which require other people to take actions. You can make an argument for why we should define rights the way you want, but you have to actually make that argument. There's no contradiction in what most people believe about rights. It's fine to believe something different. Just don't try to justify it by appeals to intuitions that other people don't share.### Human: >The thing is, we generally don't talk about rights that way. You can define things however you like, but this just isn't common usage. By apealing to common sense i assume that it is common to desire peace and prosperity. >You can make an argument for why we should define rights the way you want, but you have to actually make that argument. Well i am saying that this definition is much better and useful than "everything i want is a right" definition since it minimises conflict, increases overall peace and prosperity. When i see this definition i can instantly tell how it is huge improvement to common inconsistent definition, I probably falsely assume that others can see it too and that all they need is have the definition presented to them and they will make the conections themselves.### Assistant: > I probably falsely assume that others can see it too and that all they need is have the definition presented to them and they will make the conections themselves. Exactly. Most people just don't have those same intuitions. (I personally don't even believe in "rights" as a concept- I just use them as shorthand for a very consequentialist approach to morals, or when talking with people who do believe in them.) That's what I mean when I say you have to actually make the argument. *Why* do you believe this minimizes conflict? *Why* do you believe this increases overall peace and prosperity? *Why* do you believe these are the goal of morality in the first place? (Notably, increasing overall peace and prosperity actually goes against the general motivations for libertarianism, which start with the idea of natural rights.) Unless you start out with a robust set of evidence and argumentation for why this is the case, you won't get anywhere unless you're talking with someone who already agrees with you. (There is plenty of literature that likely suits your tastes, though. I'm sure you've heard of Robert Nozick- I'd start there with *Anarchy, State, and Utopia* if you haven't already read it.)### Human: > Unless you start out with a robust set of evidence and argumentation for why this is the case, you won't get anywhere unless you're talking with someone who already agrees with you. Im not god, don't know the universally right ways, i can only appeal to common sense, which is not so common apparently. If your fundamental perception of reality and goals are different then i have nothing to offer. You can prove facts objectively, but opinion is based on appeals and goals, if there is nothing common to appeal to - fundamental differences(like belief that you have right to enslave fellow man at gun point to provide you with things you want) can only be solved through warfare.### Assistant: >i can only appeal to common sense, which is not so common apparently That's not true. The intuitions and motivations behind your viewpoint are shared by some famous and smart people, who have made arguments and reasoned about them, not merely asserted that they must be fact. Certainly, at some point, you get down to basic values which can't be reasoned about. But that point is much further down than you might think- fundamental values aren't things like "property rights are good to have" or "we should force people to work to provide welfare." They're things like "It is valuable for people to be able to choose their own paths in life," or "It is important for each individual to have enough to eat." I don't think you'd fundamentally disagree with either of those statements I just made- there is common ground. I feel like you're too ready to simply give up when it comes to understanding someone else's point of view. You must be able to see, for example, that I don't view claiming someone else has positive duties to you as "slavery," but you insist on characterizing it that way- aren't you interested in understanding why I might view it differently?### Human: >"it is important for everyone to be fed" I would disagree, not everybody is entitled to survival, only if they provide sufficient subjective value to someone else whether it is sentimental or material so the person could aquire reaources necessary for survival either through voluntary trade or charity. >are you interested in understanding my viewpoint? Yes. Explain.

### Human: I think if you believe we are living in "end times" then you shouldn't be considered a legitimate candidate for office. CMV### Assistant: If this were a law, I could see conservatives using it to try and keep anyone who believes in climate change out of office.### Human: Or, if we take that to the logical conclusion, then: "Nope, you can't be a candidate if you believe in any religion with a concept similar to the apocalypse".### Assistant: The main difference, for me at least, is that climate change is theoretically something we can change. The other distinction is that I specifically pointed out people who believe we are currently living in end times, meaning they believe the world will end in their lifetime. Catholics, for example, do believe in an eventual apocalypse, but they don't pretend to know when that will be. If you really think about it, physics is apocalyptic too since we currently believe the Universe will one day end in some form or another.### Human: > The main difference, for me at least, is that climate change is theoretically something we can change So the moment scientists say there's nothing that can be done to stop climate change, we cannot elect anyone who agrees with them? Surely your case is at least partly built on epistemology.### Assistant: If there was near universal scientific consensus that there was no way to reverse or stop global warming, then yes, I would consider candidates who ran counter to this to not be legitimate candidates as well. I would instead support candidates who accepted this and sought solutions that could possibly save us as a species. Yes, it is an issue of epistemology of sorts. I give science more credence because it works. On the other hand people have been saying the world is going to imminently end since the beginning of history, and it's never been true.### Human: > I would consider candidates who ran counter to this to not be legitimate candidates as well. So you would want a candidate that believes we are living in an 'end times,' just not a religious one. I think your view needs to be re-worded to avoid this messy problem.### Assistant: To me, there's a pretty big difference between someone who believes, with little to no evidence, that we are living in end times that are not only inevitable, but should be embraced, and someone who believes, due to evidence, that global warming is irreversible. In the second one I would imagine there would still be attempts to save as many people as possible and continue the human race. That's quite a large distinction for me.### Human: I fail to see the distinction here. A candidate who is convinced by scientific evidence that, say, the Yellowstone volcano is going to erupt or a nearby quasar is going to bake the Earth with gamma radiation and unavoidably kill us all has similarly little incentive to plan for the future, and, therefore, meets your own definitions as stated at the top of a person that should not be considered for office. In contrast, a person whose religious convictions tell them to do as much good as possible before their prophesied apocalypse comes might actually be able to do that good, making decisions that might otherwise be politically difficult for the betterment of others, simply because there will be no reelection to be concerned about. In either case, the premise of the whole argument is all presumption that a person will act a specific way based on what we see vocal proponents of a given viewpoint doing, which points more to availability bias than it does to any empirical *fact* regarding the ability of end-time believers to govern. All said, I don't think we should be weighing someone's viability for office based on what they *say* they believe (especially given the incentive to lie for political gain) as much as we should compare with their actions in prior situations relevant to contemporary issues and draw conclusions from that.### Assistant: All good points. I addressed this in another reply as well. The difference I see between a religious end times believer and someone who thinks a super volcano or something else is going to destroy life on earth, is that I believe that most individuals would not just accept the death of our species and would instead seek any possible contingency that could continue life on earth. If we had the Armageddon scenario with an asteroid coming to earth, I would imagine that we would try to do something about it instead of sitting back and waiting for it or even relishing it as some believers do.

### Human: CMV: The Wikileaked DNC e-mails prove Sanders supporters' claims of party corruption and favoritism### Assistant: It is vital that you provide the specific accusations, because there are a whirlwind of different ones right now and on close examination they seem to never show what people claim, or confuse really standard stuff with something "shady." Things like being aware Sanders wasn't going to win in May, being annoyed by attacks against the DNC, and the like are being spun to support a pre-existing narrative. My very favorite was [this one](https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/8351), which people are claiming is admitting a vast conspiracy. It is actually bullet points on an episode of Fox News Sunday. There is another one going around that "proves" the dastardly deeds of the DNC based on bullet points about an interview Ben Carson gave to MSNBC. There really isn't even the most basic level of scrutiny on them, people are reading what they want to read and then running with it. So, could you provide the specific emails that you think show collusion to the detriment of the Sanders campaign? It is really the only way this claim can be addressed.### Human: > It is vital that you provide the specific accusations, because there are a whirlwind of different ones right now and on close examination they seem to never show what people claim, or confuse really standard stuff with something "shady." There actually seem to be quite a few examples, but the most prominently cited in the media of what's been uncovered so far [seems to be this doozy from May](https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7643), wherein the CFO of the DNC, Brad Marshall, sends an email to (among others) the Communications Director, Luis Miranda, suggesting that someone of Jewish heritage and atheist belief should be asked about their religion because of the perception that Mr. Marshall had it would make "several points difference" with his "Southern Baptist peeps". Now, the thing to realize here is that, although the official has offered weak denials that he remembers this e-mail, there's basically only one guy on all of this election cycle that fits the bill, here, for any office that perceptions in KY and WVA would be at issue. Bernie Sanders. And there's every indication that the e-mails are legitimate, not forged. So my view is, that is who he was talking about. Lets take that example first. Two party officials colluding on talking points to tear down one primary candidate.### Assistant: The email was sent on May 5th. Let's look at the context of the primaries. Clinton's lead was established as early as March 1st and from there never went away. While Sanders put up a strong fight and made himself a household name, at no point after March 1st did he seriously pose the possibility of surging past Clinton. Yes, he made incremental net gains but Clinton was always comfortably ahead of him. By May 5th - long after the New York primary, which Clinton won handily - if it wasn't immensely clear then (I would have to say though, it was pretty obvious Clinton was going to win from Super Tuesday onwards), it was absolutely crystal clear now. Clinton was the nominee. Remember how so many in the Democratic party talked about Sanders stepping aside so they could coalesce around Clinton? This is the DNC looking at reality and pivoting to the general. There was no more question about who would be the nominee. It was [settled](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/its-really-hard-to-get-bernie-sanders-988-more-delegates/) months ago, [actually](http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-democrats-super-tuesday-20160301-story.html). But by May 5th especially, it was abundantly clear. So the DNC did the practical - not necessarily ethical - thing. From the looks of it, they were uniting under Clinton. I agree in that I think what happened - if true - is a very unethical thing. Even if the result was 99% inevitable (which it was), the DNC should stay out of picking favorites. But it was the immensely practical thing to do. I don't think Bernie lost because the DNC was fighting him. And nor does that email really prove anything other than the DNC had turned to Clinton once it was already abundantly clear who their nominee was. Browsing through the emails [that the top posts pick out as evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/4u5ztv/dnc_email_leak_megathread/) of the DNC being against Bernie, they're almost all from May. And all of them are after the NY primary, which most agree was a pretty much finishing blow to an already laggard campaign. So ask yourself this, is this the DNC being corrupt? Or is this the DNC seeing the writing on the wall, accepting reality, and trying to do damage control before having to face Trump in the general? Personally, I would think they have more substance to such allegations of cronyism and corruption if they came out long before Hillary had - for all intent and purposes - already won.### Human: How could you not address the general filthiness of the actual email? To try to use the fact that Bernie *may* be an atheist against him is so far beyond the pale. I constantly hear conservatives talk about how Democrats like to divide people using identity politics, and I generally refute that claim. But this was...disgusting. I can see the argument for DWS staying, but if Brad Marshall is still there in November, no fucking way I'm voting for a democrat. I'll vote for Jill Stein in a heartbeat.### Assistant: Let's look at the actual email in question: > It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist. **"Can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage."** What does that entail? Does it mean getting a DNC official to ask Bernie about this? **"I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.** Is this for internal polling data? If it was to actually derail the Sanders campaign, why wait until Kentucky and West Virginia, when the primaries were already largely decided? Alternatively, we could extrapolate more devious scenarios. Perhaps he was implying they should get reporters to expose Sanders here to sink him in the two states. But here's the heart of the matter. Both are speculation. The email is too vague to decide that it is absolute proof of anything. Let's say I sent out a series of texts. One of my texts got out. It was: "I don't think Jon is a good person. Let's discuss this more and keep planning." It could be construed as me thinking Jon is of poor moral standing. I could also be following up to something I discussed earlier. Perhaps I meant "Jon isn't a good person for this position we discussed. Let's keep thinking about solutions". There's too much vagueness to conclude one thing or another.

### Human: CMV: Hilary Clinton's repeated reminders of her womanhood are, perhaps ironically, counter to the feminist philosophy and is the equivalent of "playing the race card".### Assistant: Since people were looking for context on what Clinton said, these are what I found from [last nights debate transcript.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/13/the-oct-13-democratic-debate-who-said-what-and-what-it-means/) Exchanges where she says the word "woman": >COOPER: Secretary Clinton, how would you not be a third term of President Obama? >CLINTON: Well, I think that's pretty obvious. I think being the first woman president would be quite a change from the presidents we've had up until this point, including President Obama. >COOPER: Is there a policy difference? >CLINTON: Well, there's a lot that I would like to do to build on the successes of President Obama, but also, as I'm laying out, to go beyond. And that's in my economic plans, how I would deal with the prescription drug companies, how I would deal with college, how I would deal with a full range of issues that I've been talking about throughout this campaign to go further. and >COOPER: That's right. Secretary Clinton, Governor O'Malley says the presidency is not a crown to be passed back and forth between two royal families. This year has been the year of the outsider in politics, just ask Bernie Sanders. Why should Democrats embrace an insider like yourself? >CLINTON: Well, I can't think of anything more of an outsider than electing the first woman president, but I'm not just running because I would be the first woman president. >CLINTON: I'm running because I have a lifetime of experience in getting results and fighting for people, fighting for kids, for women, for families, fighting to even the odds. And I know what it takes to get things done. I know how to find common ground and I know how to stand my ground. And I think we're going to need both of those in Washington to get anything that we're talking about up here accomplished. So I'm very happy that I have both the commitment of a lifetime and the experience of a lifetime to bring together to offer the American people. When I watched the debate, I had similar thoughts as the OP. After re-reading the transcript, it doesn't really seem like she was using being a woman as a qualification. Whether or not you would call that pandering though, I dunno.### Human: As a woman in engineering, I took to twitter to literally beg the woman to stop playing the gender card. It's insulting. She's interviewing for the job of president of the United States. If I interviewed for an engineering job and said "I'm different than other candidates because I'd be your first female metallurgist!" I don't think that they would take very kindly to that. It's sexist to vote for or against a candidate because of their gender. Qualifications are what matters, and it's very arrogant and condescending of Hillary to think that the women of America will vote for her solely because she's a woman.### Assistant: Or maybe [it makes her a realist (sadly)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf7MR0f4XDI)### Human: [removed]### Assistant: Sorry coffeedude7, your comment has been removed: > Comment Rule 5\. "No low effort comments. Comments that are only jokes, links, or 'written upvotes', for example. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments." [See the wiki page for more information.](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) If you would like to appeal, please [message the moderators by clicking this link.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Removed+Comment+Rule+5+Post+Appeal&message=coffeedude7+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3oopr4/cmv_hilary_clintons_repeated_reminders_of_her/cvzpvp3\))

### Human: CMV: Patriotism is pointless and potentially dangerous### Assistant: First, patriotism isn't loyalty to one's government, it's loyalty to one's country. The foreign policy errors of America were not made by the country of America; they were made by people--many of whom were acting in the interests of money, power and greed, not patriotism. The support from an uneducated and propagandized electorate is simply the result of the individuals in power creating a false narrative out of thin air in order to maintain public support. So I would say patriotism itself is never a problem. The Issues we've seen are the result of a poorly educated electorate being lied to by powerful people.### Human: You make a very fair and interesting distinction between a country and it's government. However, although that distinction dispels my comments about 9/11 and The Iraq War, it does not in my mind debunk my thesis that patriotism is both pointless, and potentially dangerous. I have to commend you on that important distinction though.### Assistant: Okay then, now that we've disconnected a country and it's government, let me try to take it a step further. I would argue that **patriotism is actually inherently neutral.** --Yes, it can be twisted into something bad (as you point out in your post). --However, it can also lead to great positive effect. For example, because I am patriotic and because I *care* about my country and what happens here, I am willing to invest my time and effort and energy into making my country a better place. To take this further, imagine a scenario in which all citizens of a country have no patriotism. It's like house renters. Such people wouldn't treat their country as well because it's not *theirs* - it's just some line on a map.### Human: Yup, Patriotism is what put men on the moon. It's also what won us the world wars (and I mean all allied nations by that)### Assistant: No, conflict is what did. Without the Cold war and without the Soviets who were at the time winning the Space race with the first man in space, first satellite, first rocket etc, it would have never of happened. And two, it was an achievement of scientists, researchers and astronauts. That's it. You are simply taking the claim for the accomplishment of others. If you had nothing to do with it, which 99.99% of Americans didn't, you have no way to claim that achievement for yourself. That's at the core what patriotism is, taking the accomplishments of others for personal gain. You had nothing to do with it, you didn't contribute, you didn't do anything. That's the issue. Also wars are a result of Patriotism. They do no good there. It would be best if there wasn't a war in the first place. But Patriotism and Nationalism resulted in that war.### Human: All of the achievements of the the scientists, researchers, and astronauts took funding. It took a lot of money to pay for everything. That money came from tax payers. Without patriotism it would have been a hell of a lot harder for the scientists to get the politicians to give them huge chunks of money. Patriotism is what aloud the politicians to get the American people to agree to use tax money to fund it all. Let's do it for the red, white, and blue, 'cause you know, we can't let those Soviet fucks over there beat us to the moon.### Assistant: Do you really believe that US citizens would all pay taxes (enough to fund the biggest industrial military complex in the world) if you made it voluntary and based on how patriotic they felt about their nation? People pay taxes mostly because of the legal penalties for not doing so.

### Human: CMV: At 5% unemployment, the economy and job market is in a good place in the US### Assistant: Using the unemployment rate as a measure of economic well-being can be a bit misleading, since the unemployment rate doesn't account for discouraged workers. The unemployment rate can decrease without anyone actually getting a job.### Human: The methodology for the 5% figure only includes workers actively looking for work though.### Assistant: I know. That's why it's misleading. Let's do some math. Unemployment = (# of unemployed workers)/(Labor force) Let's say we have 11,000 able-bodied adults in our country, with 9,000 employed, 1,000 unemployed, and 1,000 discouraged. Therefore, we have an unemployment rate of 10%. Fast forward one year. We still have 11,000 able-bodied adults, and 9,000 of them are still employed. However, half of the unemployed people stopped looking for work during the past year. We now only have 500 unemployed people and a new unemployment rate of 5%. However, we also have 1500 discouraged workers. The unemployment rate went from 10% to 5%, but things actually got worse.### Human: That's a good point and I see that the unemployment rate is not a good standalone measure, but I'm really looking for convincing that the job market is 'bad' instead of pointing out that the positive indicators are unreliable.### Assistant: Except your whole point is resting on that 5% figure. If the figure is misleading, it pokes holes in your argument.

### Human: CMV: The United States of America has and will keep purposefully waging war against terrorist organizations abroad against in order to bolster its massive war industry.### Assistant: >Wars fought for questionable reasons, almost always with a gain to the US. The statement that the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars benefitted the US economically is an incredibly bold statement. I don't see how dumping $2 trillion dollars into fuel, bullets, guns and tanks that all get left overseas and destroyed is a benefit to the US economy. And that's only the inital costs. Paying for 50000+ wounded soldiers is going to be a bill the US is paying for another 60+ years. Estimates put the total cost at between 4 and 6 trillion dollars. Just from the $2 trillion initial cost we're already going to be paying $40 billion in interest for the rest of forever. Think about that for a second. ~$130 per person for the rest of eternity. And you're telling me that this is a net benefit to the American Economy? Any benefit that the US economy would have gotten from borrowing the money to pay soldiers and such could have been far surpassed by investing that money in the US. Building infrastructure, educating the workforce, developing tech with civilian purposes. This would all be better for the economy, then dumping the money into wars. The purpose of the wars isn't to bolster our war industry. That's stupid. Any other investment would be better than spending the money to injure 50,000+ people that we will have to support for the rest of their lives. The purpose of the wars is to secure our foreign interests, to provide security, and potentially benefit us through secured resources. So, sure it could benefit our economy. But not the way you're describing it. Getting an economic benefit from securing oil in Iraq is not what you are describing. You are just talking about continuing to pay Lockheed Martin being a benefit to the economy. >If America stopped waging war, a sizable part of its industry would fail. No, it wouldn't. If America stopped waging war and disbanded a majority of it's military, all the money that was being spent could be invested into something else. Something that would benefit America much more than just paying guys to train for the next war. America has a military because it believes it needs it for protection and because the stability it provides to the world is more beneficial than the cost. Whether that is true or not is debatable, but beyond the scope of this CMV. This CMV is about the fact that taking on debt to make bullets and drive tanks around in the desert is a benefit to the economy. Which it isn't, at least not in a vacuum (IE not getting any oil out of it), and not when compared to literally anything else that money could be spent on.### Human: > The statement that the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars benefitted the US economically is an incredibly bold statement. I don't see how dumping $2 trillion dollars into fuel, bullets, guns and tanks that all get left overseas and destroyed is a benefit to the US economy. You don't see how keeping people employed (in war) is beneficial to the economy? > The purpose of the wars isn't to bolster our war industry. How about keep it going as strong, then?### Assistant: > You don't see how keeping people employed (in war) is beneficial to the economy? It isn't. The broken window fallacy is a fallacy for a reason. It's good for some participants in the economy, but on the whole it is bad.### Human: Well he is kind of right. It does show an increase in the GDP of a country. The GDP increases by all the profits made by every part manufactured in a bomb. when the bomb goes boom. It should show up as a cost. However the resources wasted on that initial bomb. The materials that can't be reclaimed do not influence the GDP.### Assistant: I do not accept GDP as a valid way to measure an economy. It fails to capture the spirit of what makes for a good economy (personal wealth, resource availability, buying power). And instead measures how fast money is moving. I'm not saying there is no correlation, I'm simply saying you shouldn't look at BMI alone to determine a person's health. Also GDP is incredibly easy to prop up in the same way you can stop drinking water for a few days to make your BMI look better. You aren't healthier.

### Human: CMV: Public Colleges That Prevent Free Speech Shouldn't be Eligible for Government Funding.### Assistant: > You can't kick students out for unpopular political opinions, "micro-aggressions", or any sort of structured speech that the moral majority disagrees with. As long as speech is provided in a civilized manner(arguments based on logic and statistics rather than personal/character attacks), a student shouldn't be able to get kicked out for it. I know many people whose learning has been disrupted by microaggressions. Your distinctions seem entirely arbitrary. Why is a microaggression okay, but the sign with the n-word on it not okay?### Human: Part of the education is learning how to deal with difficult things. Maybe it's a roommate who masterbates/has sex with you in the room. Maybe it's an asshole roommate who doesn't respect your possessions. Maybe it's an uncomfortable topic in a class. Students need to learn how to deal and progress in their lives. It's called growing up.### Assistant: I can't believe that you think all difficult things are good for people to learn to deal with, because it's difficult to get stabbed with a red-hot poker and I cannot imagine you think that's an appropriate thing to happen in college. So, you must draw some line somewhere. Do you have a generalizable rule?### Human: >because it's difficult to get stabbed with a red-hot poker and I cannot imagine you think that's an appropriate thing to happen in college. What on earth are you talking about? The generalizable rule is crime. Assault, harassment, etc. Microaggressions are not crimes generally. This is why they are ok.### Assistant: Crime meaning breaking a federal, state, or local law? So, you're okay with screaming into a megaphone in someone's ear while they're trying to take a class? That's not a crime.

### Human: CMV:If you care about animals, you achieve more by eating the meat of those that were ethically raised, rather than by being a vegetarian.### Assistant: [deleted]### Human: But you literally aren't making any difference other than in the cases I mentioned, which are exceptions. The question here is, you are trying to help actual animals. You can do a lot by activism, but that isn't the question here, only your eating habits. So which eating habits will make the most difference? Vegetarianism only makes a difference to you. Supporting ethically raised animals is going behind an obtainable goal that can realistically be achieved. Meat market like any market has to appeal to its customers, and if the meat of animals that were raised ethically gets more popular, it will push for changes. Vegetarians simply have no effect on this at all because while they create a new market, they don't affect the meat market at all. Ideals of good and evil are nice, but if they are not effective, they are meaningless. morally, I am against eating animals. But it's not going to happen yet. At least they can live better lives.### Assistant: [deleted]### Human: And you probably are polluting. If you care, you are making compromises, trying to do your best in some ways while still living with some necessities. You are finding the most reasonable compromise between your needs and the needs of the environment. Different people will disagree where that compromise is, how much is reasonable to give up, but if a trend is popular enough it has a chance to be more universally accepted. That is why whatever allows some comfort, is not expensive and is good for environment is goign to achieve more on a global level that a few people spreading a radical propaganda about losing comfort completely for the sake of environment and going to live in wilderness or something. You are more effective if you keep in mind that for any change to be significant it still has to appeal to great enough number of people who will push the market to suit their needs. With meat you have 3 options. One is not caring at all. One is backing a totally idealistic trend that will never catch on (unless like I said some new technology is developed). One is backing a more realistic trend that might catch on as it gets more popularity.### Assistant: [deleted]

### Human: CMV: Settlements from lawsuits against police departments should be paid at least partially out of police pension funds.### Assistant: This misapprehends how a pension works. The pension is an obligation by the employer to make payments according to a contractual schedule. The pension fund is the pool of money set aside for that purpose. If the fund goes dry, the obligation doesn't go away. Rather, it reverts to the employer, who is obligated to make up the shortfall. Taking the money from a pension fund would just make it come out of a municipal budget anyway, so it's just a circuitous route of what we're doing already where the money comes from the taxpayer.### Human: Yeah that's what I was getting at in the last paragraph. I mean pension benefits but am using "pension funds" as a proxy to try to avoid getting in to pension accounting.### Assistant: That would likely be unconstitutional, and unwise. First, why it's unconstitutional: This would violate the other officers' right to not be deprived of their property (contract rights are property) without due process of law, which is protected in the 5th and 14th Amendments. The core right of due process is the right to not be deprived of something without a showing that you specifically violated the law in some way that makes that deprivation legal. Taking my pension away in a trial I've got nothing to do with is a clear violation of my constitutional right not to have my stuff taken away. It also violates a more obscure provision: the contract clause. The [contract clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_Clause) of the Constitution requires that: >No State shall... pass any... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts. If a contract is validly entered into, and pension contracts are, then a State cannot modify the obligations of that contract after the fact. Impairment of contracts is exclusively the domain of the bankruptcy courts, which is established in Article I section 8: >The Congress shall have power to... establish... uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States. Changing the terms of contract with an unrelated party (the officers who didn't do anything wrong) as a punishment in a lawsuit would violate these terms. --------------------- Even if this weren't very unconstitutional, it would be a bad idea. First, the due process part I mentioned is a big deal. You are punishing people who did nothing wrong. It is a bedrock principle of justice in our legal system that we do not engage in collective punishment. Courts punish only those entities who did something deserving of punishment. The town pays because it either agreed to indemnify its officers against suits (it agreed to be an insurer), or because it is liable by virtue of being the employer and supervisor of the officers who broke the law. What you're proposing is collective punishment. Collective punishment may be effective, but it is highly corrosive to justice. It is a bedrock of fairness that we don't punish people for things they have no control over. To do otherwise invites arbitrary overreach and basically means that nobody has any security that their property might not be taken away because of somebody else's actions.### Human: You can get around the "loss of property" by having a clause in the contract that states if you are the cause of a settlement you lose x amount in benefits.### Assistant: Such a clause would eviscerate the OP's proposal. First, OP is specifically asking to punish cops who did *not* cause the settlement; rather, OP wants to punish all cops on the force, regardless of their involvement. Second, it would mean that the policy would take decades to come into force, since it would not be able to touch existing pension holders whose contracts don't include the clause.

### Human: CMV: Software should not be patentable.### Assistant: Is shopping cart really obvious? Internet was not originally designed for persistent states. So originally on-line shopping was a real engineering problem. First shopping carts involved a clever use of cookies to persistently store user selections as he browses around different pages on the site. Why do you think this was obvious? Similarly, Amazon's infamous "single click" patent did something that no one was doing before - used stored profile data to instantly check out customers without the need to walk a customer though tedious shopping cart menus. Why shouldn't the engineers who came up with these creative solutions to real problems not be entitled to patents? edit: spelling, grammar### Human: because they are no real feat of engineering. They are not non-obvious. "We want to make it really easy for our clients to buy stuff with only a single click" "Oh we should just store their information and just use that automatically" There is nothing innovative about it and its pretty obvious to anyone in the field.### Assistant: Would any engineer in 1994 be able to solve this problem? And if so, why did Netscape was the only company that created innovative cookies that enabled a shopping cart at the time? Yeah it is easy to say ""Oh we should just store their information and just use that automatically" but is not easy at all to MAKE IT WORK. That is like saying: "Oh we would like a gun that reloads automatically," and then saying "oh, we will just use the recoil to reload the gun!" So easy! I guess the invention of a semi automatic gun does not deserve patent protection.### Human: Netscape invented the cookie. Copyright law allows them to trademark and protect the word "cookie" The concept of storing information on the client side of web browsers is not incredibly innovative. It seemed like a good extension to web-browsers. It could have been called anything else "Web storage", "KeyTable" or something like that.### Assistant: >Netscape invented the cookie. Yes, and they also invented the idea of storing information on the client side of web browsers. No one was doing it before them, they figured out how to do it. >It seemed like a good extension to web-browsers. Sure, it seems "good." Does not mean it was obvious in 1994.### Human: storing information on a machine doesnt seem like an obvious thing to do?### Assistant: Abacus.So not novel. But, storing sinformation on.a client side that can communicate state of the client back to.server using a browse is not just "storing information" If it was "so obvious" why did no one do it in 1993, or 1992? Why did it take Microsoft a year to catch up? Come on.

### Human: I believe that alternative education formats like Khan Academy deserve full academic credentials and should be capable of granting credit for work accomplished. CMV### Assistant: How do you know that I didn't just get my PhD friend to do my tests for me? Nothing stops Khan academy issuing diplomas or degrees, but until it can satisfy a respected accreditation agency that it's testing its students on enough of the subject matter and can reasonably say they know it's truly the enrolled student doing the test unaided outside of permitted aids then your Khan degree doesn't mean anything unless someone takes you on your honour that you actually did it.### Human: But the exact same thing can be said of any online college platform. For example, I wrote a paper for an online class i was taking last week. I could have asked my wife to do it as she's a much better writer than I am and the institution would never have known the difference. Theres no difference between taking an accredited class online and learning something on a modern platform like KA.### Assistant: The only difference is the accreditation, which Khan academy is welcome to strive for as far as many if not most accreditation agencies are concerned. Also does your online class have no in-person or more stringent requirements for proof of identity when you have to do tests or at least a final?### Human: You login and submit your paper. The instructor of course checks it for plagarism with specialized software but other than logging in, there is no proof of identity required beyond your login/password.### Assistant: Is there no final? Is that paper your only academic work?### Human: Well the class was a series of writing assignments and research papers. The final was a paper. My point is that there was no authentication system beyond the login so theres no difference between that mode and KA.### Assistant: That is quite different than what my undergrad did for online classes, however it also doesn't really matter because there was no way you could go to my undergrad and get a degree by doing everything online, or not showing up to take exams. Usually some of the easier writing classes and computer classes were online, but most of the upper level courses required for the degrees did not have an online course. I don't know that I have ever heard of a school 100% online that you can do that for, which is why Khan doesn't have it set up either. Is there an actual 4 year university, or even two year associate degree that offers totally online curriculum? It would be news to me, and rightly so, because the whole point to go to school and get a degree is to be proficient in the material and I don't know how a fully online program could accomplish that.### Human: U of A @ Birmingham has a full online 4 year course. So does Liberty College.### Assistant: Huh... TIL. Do you know what the degrees are in?### Human: I've been looking at one in Management Information Systems, but there are a few others they have.### Assistant: Well shit, good on you. I am currently in med school, did a bio undergrad, so I have never really had opportunities other than a computer systems course, and a stats course, but both of those I still had to show up for midterm and finals. I can't remember if we had more than those 2 required tests, it was quite a number of years ago. What is your view on verifying if the person getting the degree is the person doing the work? Is there a way those schools do it?### Human: A lot of what goes on today runs on the honor system. To me it comes down to if someone fakes a degree and they get a job on the assumption they didn't, it'll show. Also from what I understand many online exams tend to be open book just so they don't have to deal with trying to verify that people are not cheating that way. As with most of life, you get out what you put in. In a way it's like home school graduation certificates in states that don't have standardized test grad standards. Obviously there are some majors and classes that just don't work in online format. Such as your med school.

### Human: CMV: When an individual or organization uses your ideology to justify action, and you do not denounce said action, you are enabling their justification and bear partial responsibility for that action.### Assistant: The logical conclusion of this is that you are compelled to spend inordinate amounts of time researching every bad thing everyone has ever done in the name of x.### Human: I don't think that's necessary, and actually an earlier draft of this title included "famous or infamous" in reference to the events. I would say that this... "moral requirement" only applies to events you are made aware of.### Assistant: So you are admitting your partial responsibility for the horrible acts of Nazi Josef Mengele with human experimentation. I haven't seen you denounce it yet, so by your logic you condone it, yes? There are an infinite number of bad acts in the world. You could spend a lifetime denouncing them and accomplish nothing. Instead, you could explain your ideological stance clearly and not have to mention every act that other perform against your ideology.### Human: Silence before being asked for a stance should not be construed as condonement, silence after being asked can be mistaken as condonement however: Hence the need to make a view known. Of course I condemn the acts of Josef Mengele.### Assistant: So by your rules I can hold you as a moral hostage in this thread infinitely pointing out horrific acts done in the name of science and the moment you stop responding, you assume partial responsibility for not denouncing it. I don't think you're a bad person, BTW. I just think your measure is an unrealistic burden to place on you or anyone else.### Human: If you can assume that I am still reading your replies, then sure. And while you're at it, I'm also an Atheist.### Assistant: Incidentally are the hundreds of readers of this thread enabling evil scientists if they don't each and all reply noting they don't condone it?### Human: I'm not making assptions about them and find it reckless to do so, which I believe is your point. But elsewhere I've awarded a Delta to someone who convinced me of a broad definition of condemning that I think covers this point.

### Human: CMV: Higher insurance rates for young men is sexist.### Assistant: Insurance rates are all about probability. The insurance companies compile huge amounts of data. Based on the demographic data of the insured, what is the probability that they will have to pay out, and how much will they need to pay. They take that number, add in a profit, and that's your rate. Things that they have discovered correlate with lower costs to them include: * grades * defensive driving classes * safe driver * age * miles driven * where you live * safely equipment on the vehicle * gender Of the these factors are used to set rates. All of them are "unfair" in a sense. You could be a much better driver at 16 than some other people are at 40. You could get straight A's and drive drunk every night. But statistically (and again, that's all that insurance is), if the company insures 1000 women and 1000 men, they are going to pay considerably less for the women. Why should they have to pay more?### Human: Women are more likely to have children. Does that mean that companies should hire men, so that there is less chance they will go on maternity leave? If you are looking at objective facts, it would make sense to hire the man in that scenario.### Assistant: Insurance is allowed to be based on the elements I listed. Hiring follows different rules.### Human: We're not talking about rules, we're talking about whether said rules are sexist or not. It feels like you are avoiding whether or not something is sexist towards men, but are quite happy to admit when something is sexist towards women. Why is this?### Assistant: Sexist is arbitrarily treating one gender differently based only on bias (like paying women less to do an identical job). This is not arbitrary.### Human: So you're saying that hiring a man over a woman because she is likely to get pregnant over the next year is not sexist?### Assistant: Correct. But it's bad social policy which is why we pass laws to prevent it. Not promoting a women into management because "women are too emotional", however, is sexist.### Human: So how do you define why something is a bad social policy and why something else is not? Are you using completely arbitrary measures? Just so you know, it's been banned to sell car insurance to women for less in the UK because it's considered sexist. To be honest, the only difference here between the social policy of making men pay more and not hiring women because of pregnancy is your own bias.### Assistant: It's bad social policy because males also benefit from women' pregnancies. No one benefits from encouraging men to drive fast, drunk and aggressively.### Human: But most men DONT drive aggressively. The fact is, in both situations it is financially sound to act in a sexist manner. It has nothing to do with how it benefits society, only how it benefits a company. Again, I feel you are drawing arbitrary lines based on your own subjective prejudice, and not on the objective fact that both these scenarios are incredibly similar, only with the genders switched. You can't say one is sexist and the other one isn't. They are both sexist, because both are based on generalizations and don't reflect the individual.### Assistant: > But most men DONT drive aggressively. Have you seen the accident statistics? I've posted them in other replies. Men are much more likely to be involved in severe crashes than women.

### Human: CMV: Marvel not having the movie rights to the X-Men has made the Marvel Cinematic Universe much stronger.### Assistant: Not having the x-men allowed them the ability to see how much of a fiasco a "kitchen sink" cast is when they screened X-3. Fan service is cool and all, but nothing tanks an ensemble show like having too many characters without clear loyalties/ relationships with each other interacting. Which feds into your position, but that is the extent of how it has done so. Placing limits and direction on creativity generally yields better results than an "open world/Do whatever you want/feel" environment. In this case the limitation of not having the X-men is barely a ripple compared to the wealth of characters that are available to the MCU show runners. The sheer amount of self restraint that the MCU has shown is evidence of this. The re-working of Ultron and the Vision for example. The separation of Agents of Shield compared to the Avengers. Basically they have done an amazing job at making sure the ensembles and groups maintained their individuality while still being part of the same world. Wonder Man, Tigra, Various incarnations of Giant man (not counting Pym), Wasp (although she has some off screen relevance), Black Knight, Moon Knight, Hercules, Captain Marvel, She-hulk, Firebird, Namor, Dr. Strange... Just to name some of the avengers that haven't had any screen time but who have good compelling stories and could (mostly) stand on their own in a feature, or at least an appearance in Agents of SHIELD. If any have since I last saw an episode.. strike them from above comment. The above doesn't take into account the various villains or the FF characters they also cannot touch. But in terms of not having the x-men, the additional character limits effects have been inconsequential. Partially as Marvel kept the two franchises so separate for so many years in a way that made sense from both a publishing/marketing, and a story perspective. Mostly because they have such a wealth of characters to pull from even without them.### Human: > In this case the limitation of not having the X-men is barely a ripple compared to the wealth of characters that are available to the MCU show runners. > Are these characters that the general public is aware of? It's hard to argue that a few of the XMen aren't some of the biggest Marvel Comics IPs. (Obviously with the rise of the MCU, they are being quickly displaced, but before, Hugh Jackmans Wolverine was widely considered a great choice and made BUTTLOADSAMONEY). >The sheer amount of self restraint that the MCU has shown is evidence of this. The re-working of Ultron and the Vision for example. I thought Age of Ultron was a bad movie, fwiw. Ultron was a horribly written and horribly directed bad guy. I fealt nothing for him. >Wonder Man, Tigra, Various incarnations of Giant man (not counting Pym), Wasp (although she has some off screen relevance), Black Knight, Moon Knight, Hercules, Captain Marvel, She-hulk, Firebird, Namor, Dr. Strange... I know of Pym and Wasp because they were already in AntMan. I know OF captain marvel, but nothing beyond the name, and the fact that they are sometimes a guy, sometimes a girl. She-hulk I am aware of only because it's a girl version of the hulk (original writing there guys.) Dr. Strange, again, I'm only aware of because I know they are going to do an MCU movie based on it. Maybe I'm holding myself in too much of an *average* regard, but when I see all this shit that I know nothing about, as someone who doesn't generally read comics, and I'm only being made aware of them through these films.... I don't know. It gets a bit overwhelming. In comics, it's okay to make up ... being frank, outright stupid origin stories. In the movies, they still do stupid shit, but it reflects much more harshly on the film, and on the franchise as a whole, in my opinion. People still complain about the ridiculous inconsistencies in AntMan for example. They didn't complain nearly as much with Iron Man when he used a ruler to make sure the height on his super delicate magic energy devices was level (though people did complain.) That is a bit of a tangent though - if it was one of a handful of people, it wouldn't be a big deal. When it starts to be bucketfuls of badly written *crap*, it's going to lose a lot of its edge. >Mostly because they have such a wealth of characters to pull from even without them. You know, I keep hearing this, but I'm not actually sure I agree with it. Just because you have 30 million bazillion characters, doesn't mean all of them are novel, and especially doesn't mean that all of them are *marketable.* Perhaps that is a position of ignorance from me, as I read very very very few comics (less than a handful in my life), but when so many of them start to blend together, it is hard to really... "care" about a character. Good post though, thank you for making it. :)### Assistant: Arguably, before the movies the general public was barely aware of any of the characters. They might know the name, and maybe the superpower... but not the core character. Ie they might know Captain America, but have no clue who Steve Rogers was. Comic fans and the "geek/nerd" subculture did... but when the movies started being made they were seen as Niche films that ended up expanding the niche to the point where it's arguably the best acting and character development on the big screen right now. The Self-restraint and work-around involving Ultron/Vision was in how they were created. There are at least 3 other characters in the comics that had not yet been introduced who are essential to his creation. that could have been 10 minutes that watered him down. You aren't supposed to have empathy towards Ultron as the movie was written, he's just supposed to piss you off and make you want to see him destroyed. > That is a bit of a tangent though - if it was one of a handful of people, it wouldn't be a big deal. When it starts to be bucketfuls of badly written crap, it's going to lose a lot of its edge. Bad writing is bad writing. It doesn't matter if it's a 30 second sketch or a 3 hour movie. Having the X characters has no impact on that at all though. (Going back to the original point.) You yourself are stating that you barely know these characters, but how many of the X characters were you aware of before the movies? How many of the X characters are in the movies that you can't name? > Just because you have 30 million bazillion characters, doesn't mean all of them are novel, and especially doesn't mean that all of them are marketable. Perhaps that is a position of ignorance from me, as I read very very very few comics (less than a handful in my life), but when so many of them start to blend together, it is hard to really... "care" about a character. ahhh.. here's the Crux. You still think that Marvel is using the characters to drive the marketing. They aren't... MARVEL is the name that drives the marketing. They have created such an intricate Universe with so few continuity errors that going to see the next movie is just looking to see what the next puzzle piece is going to be. It's not a self contained experience like an old Arnold flick. The writing is intentionally set to make you go back and re-watch the earlier films to piece together the hidden messages etc. As far as not having enough to grow with... even if they can't find a way to fit a "squirrel girl" or whoever into the MCU... the MCU is now creating new main characters on it's own. Phil Coulson is the perfect example. Here's a one off character that ended up driving an entire show. The MCU has a huge catalog to pull from, and as long as the writing doesn't get too hackish on more than 1-2 movies in a row the Marvel name will draw us in. Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy... these are not names with a draw to most people. but they're outperforming pretty much anything DC can put out on the big screen besides Nolan's trilogy. At least compared to expectation... and definitely when comparing quality. DC does do better small screen, and has consistently for decades. But only with their marquee names. People go to watch Batman, but they go to experience the MCU.### Human: > You yourself are stating that you barely know these characters, but how many of the X characters were you aware of before the movies? How many of the X characters are in the movies that you can't name? > A good few, actually. I watched the cartoon as a kid, and played some of the games. I find it strange how... absolutely central and iconic Cyclops used to be. Now its all "wolverine." Not htat wolverine wasn't iconic, but... Cyclops used to be, in what was my child like mind at the time, on par with him. >ahhh.. here's the Crux. **You still think that Marvel is using the characters to drive the marketing. They aren't...** MARVEL is the name that drives the marketing. They have created such an intricate Universe with so few continuity errors that going to see the next movie is just looking to see what the next puzzle piece is going to be. It's not a self contained experience like an old Arnold flick. The writing is intentionally set to make you go back and re-watch the earlier films to piece together the hidden messages etc. >As far as not having enough to grow with... even if they can't find a way to fit a "squirrel girl" or whoever into the MCU... the MCU is now creating new main characters on it's own. Phil Coulson is the perfect example. Here's a one off character that ended up driving an entire show. The MCU has a huge catalog to pull from, and as long as the writing doesn't get too hackish on more than 1-2 movies in a row the Marvel name will draw us in. Can you give multiple deltas? I gave someone else a reluctant delta, but feel you deserve one too. That is a good point. They aren't taking the "write any kind of trash that someone who collects them will buy" kind of attitude they have with comics and doing it with the MCU. ∆ if it works. >DC does do better small screen, and has consistently for decades. But only with their marquee names. People go to watch Batman, but they go to experience the MCU. Yes, but that might not be the case forever. As the MCU gets older, it has more time to mess up, and the DCCU is just starting. It'll be interesting to see where things go.### Assistant: Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Cheeseboyardee. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Cheeseboyardee)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][/r/DeltaBot]

### Human: I feel I am pro-choice but I can't reconcile pro-life reasoning with my own logic. CMV### Assistant: It seems to me that you're thinking that pro-choice is the same as being pro-abortion, which isn't the case at all. Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you would be in favor of getting an abortion in your own personal situation, but it's allowing for people to have that choice available to them. I used to be pro-life (but still relatively unsure of my views on the issue) until the argument was explained to me in this way. If I were ever in the situation where I got a girl pregnant and she wanted an abortion, I'm not sure how I would feel about her going through with it. While I may want to keep the child because of my own morals, that doesn't mean that I don't think everyone else should have to do the same. It seems like this is what you're struggling with, but you have to remember that being pro-choice means that you are in favor of allowing people to have this choice, not that you would be in favor of an abortion if you were faced with this situation.### Human: Hey thank you, this is a very insightful post, and I hadn't thought about it in that way. I am most definitely pro-choice, but I'm not sure if I'd call myself pro-abortion, although I'd like to think that if the circumstances were calling for it I could and would do it.### Assistant: Your welcome. I used to find it hard to counter pro-life logic, but you have to remember that pro-choice is just that: being in favor of a choice. I now see restrictions on abortion as restrictions on the rights of people over their own bodies as I don't view an unborn child as its own person but rather still part of the mother's body.### Human: ∆ for showing me the difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice and reconciling my posture of pro-choice with my own feelings about abortion!### Assistant: It seems to me that /u/the_karma_man_can's reasoning hinges entirely on the unborn child *not* being a person. Since you do not seem to agree with this, I don't see how he could have changed your view.### Human: He changed my view in the sense that you can perfectly be pro-choice and not have it clear with yourself on abortion. This is a perspective that I had not contemplated before. In any case I do agree with the fact that an unborn child is not a person. It is however, an organism that has every intent to become alive.### Assistant: I disagree that one can be pro-choice and personally opposed to abortion. There is essentially only one reason to be opposed to abortion, and that is that it is immoral because it involves ending the life of an innocent human being. If you agree with that, then you cannot possibly condone the practice on the part of others. It would be rather like being against the holocaust personally but being for the right to have a holocaust if you want. Also, At some point we should clear up our terminology. The embryo is by any scientific definition 'alive.'### Human: As someone stated in another comment, although I personally dislike abortion, in some cases it can be the best option and should be permitted. Also, due to sociological factors, making abortion legal is more than convenient. Ideally it should be disincentived, with whatever pre-educational or whatever measures you can think of. I don't think it's incoherent at all.

### Human: CMV: I just don't understand the deal with actor's race in movies. Both people freaking out over a not-white cast member, and the idea of not-white actors allowing not-white people to "relate" to them.### Assistant: Well this is a misrepresentation of the argument: >* And I don't get the idea that an actor needs to be X, so that people of X race can relate to them. >One of my favorite movies of all time is Pursuit of Happyness. I strongly related to Smith's character from that movie. I never thought "I really relate to this character, despite the fact that he's black". It isn't so much about being able to relate to a character as it is about seeing representation of people who look like you on screen. The movie Hidden Figures was so inspirational to young girls of all races but especially young black girls and boys, because they hadn't seen themselves represented in the sciences or in any of the accomplishments of the US during our golden era, and now they did. And it was inspirational and made many feel like they can do that too if they want. It made some people consider such an industry or study area for themselves for the first time. The reason is, in summary: "You can't be what you can't see."### Human: But that would mean if there was a movie starring a black person as a mass murderer of children and puppies that black people would be inspired by them too. How are the character's actions and story less important than the character's race?### Assistant: What on earth do you mean? No, it isn't like a light switch programmed for "Black person sees black actor: inspired." No, the role itself and the things the character does have to be inspirational for people of the same race to feel inspired by seeing an actor portray that character. Obviously.### Human: Okay, fair enough. > representation of people who look like you on screen But no one looks like me on screen. And the same is true for everyone else regardless of their race. Their body frame is different, hair different, facial structure different, eye shape different, ear shape different, tone of skin different. How can somebody look at an actor, see that the only physical thing they have in common is race, then determine "they look like me"? > And it was inspirational and made many feel like they can do that too if they want How? Did they think their race would disqualify them from being a mathmetician until they saw this movie? If before seeing the movie they thought that they'd just be low key blacklisted, why would they think any of that would change after the movie was released?### Assistant: Come one dude. This is twice that your response is splitting hairs over the literal meaning of my exact wording instead of the overall meaning. "People who look like them" doesn't mean someone who actually looks just like you but rather I was just talking about seeing someone of the same race as you. >How? Did they think their race would disqualify them from being a mathmetician until they saw this movie? If before seeing the movie they thought that they'd just be low key blacklisted, why would they think any of that would change after the movie was released? This is a documented thing that representation matters in society. It is again not as literal as you're taking it. No, black people weren't literally barred from being scientists before this movie came out. It's just a simple matter of people observing the world around them and making ingrained assumptions about it. For example, with the majority of doctors as men and nurses as women, people still make assumptions about gender when they hear the word "doctor" or "nurse" in a gender-neutral context. For instance that old riddle: "A father and son are in a horrible car crash that kills the father. The son is rushed to the hospital; just as he's about to go under the knife, the surgeon says, 'I can't operate—that boy is my son!' Explain." The explanation is of course that the surgeon is the boy's mother, but the reason this is even a riddle is because people automatically assume male when they hear "surgeon." This same concept applies for race. A young black child observes the world around them and doesn't see scientists represented in their life and doesn't even think about it or consider it as a career. Then Hidden Figures comes along and makes it popular and expands the audience, and black girls who feel drawn to science from watching the movie may actually consider it for their future careers since the characters are black women whereas if the characters were white men they might not have.### Human: > For example, with the majority of doctors as men and nurses as women, people still make assumptions about gender when they hear the word "doctor" or "nurse" in a gender-neutral context. For instance that old riddle: "A father and son are in a horrible car crash that kills the father. The son is rushed to the hospital; just as he's about to go under the knife, the surgeon says, 'I can't operate—that boy is my son!' Explain." The explanation is of course that the surgeon is the boy's mother, but the reason this is even a riddle is because people automatically assume male when they hear "surgeon." I read a piece a while back where the author talked about that riddle and how it serves as a reflection of the times. They told their kid recently and the kid's guess was that the doctor was the boy's *other dad*, speaking to the normalization of gay relationships. I thought it was interesting how the kid jumped to two gay dads before a mom as a doctor.

### Human: CMV: It doesn't matter what the founding fathers of the United States would have done in any given issue.### Assistant: We still hold the US Constitution to be the law of the land. The US Constitution was drafted by the founding fathers. US Constitution is relatively short document that needs to be interpreted when particular circumstances occur. Intent of the writer is a common tool used when interpreting documents. Thus, it does matter what the founding fathers thought, because their intent is relevant when interpreting the Constitution.### Human: I realize this, but I think it would be better to interpret the constitution in light of current events instead of events from centuries ago. The founding fathers are just humans, and we have people on this earth who are as smart or smarter than the founding fathers. There is no reason to value their opinions over what anyone else says. Also, I don't think we should be as afraid as we are to amend the constitution.### Assistant: The Constitution is the standard for U.S. law (the way the hour is to time), so we cannot repeatedly interpret it in different ways to fit different situations. The only way to keep it as a standard is to interpret it as it was originally intended to be interpretted. The only way to do that is to consider the intentions of the authors, the founding fathers. It's not about what they thought politically outside of their authorship of the constitution, even if that information is exactly what is needed to interpret their intent. If that makes sense...### Human: I'm not saying we should keep interpreting it for every case. I'm saying we should interpret it in what way we think is best, and vote to change it if we disagree. If we happen to agree with the founding fathers, so be it, but we shouldn't make decisions just because the founding fathers would agree.### Assistant: > I'm saying we should interpret Who is we. The only body which can interpret the constitution is the Supreme court. So it's not we but they. The Constitution is a contract, and thus it should not be subject to reinterpretation at will. This contract protects two groups of people. One, the people at large against government tyranny, thus it defeats the purpose to let the govt. alter the constitution on a whim. Two, to protect minority interests, which is why we don't make it easy for the majority to change the constitution. > but we shouldn't make decisions just because the founding fathers would agree. And we don't we've changed the constitution with 27 amendments.### Human: I realize the Supreme Court interprets the law. By "we", I meant the nation. I think the Supreme court shouldn't worry about what the founding fathers thought either, but that wasn't really the point. I mean when people are debating or proposing ideas, the founding fathers should not be a factor.### Assistant: If they "should not be a factor" why care about Constitution at all? Why not just abolish the whole thing and write a new one? If we do that we will truly "not worry about what the founding fathers thought." However, if we desire to keep the Constitution, we must by implication worry about the intent of the writers of that Constitution. You can't have it both ways, you can't keep the text but throw out the intent.### Human: Iirc, it was Jefferson that suggested exactly this. Every 20 years we'd write a new constitution to avoid being under the tyranny of previous generations. I don't follow this logic of intent in the constitution at all. We don't consider their intent in regards to slaves or women. We CHANGED that, so why not other things?### Assistant: Exactly, we changed those things by amendment. We chose to keep other text. That other text needs to be interpreted from time to time.### Human: We didn't "choose" it. It just doesn't make sense without the text. We're still changing from the intent, even if we keep the historical wording.

### Human: CMV: Using a motorcycle as your primary means of transportation is a very stupid thing to do### Assistant: Your whole argument is based on safety being the number one goal. Jeep Wranglers consistently score among the lowest on government and IIHS safety tests. The Kia Rio has the most accidents per vehicle. So, should everyone drive a Volvo? Motorcycles offer a number of advantages: 1. Relatively inexpensive 2. Great gas milage 3. Ability to get through traffic (where lane splitting is permitted) 4. Easy to park 5. ~~Less environmental impact~~ 6. More fun Number 6 is a biggie. Like it our not, very very few people buy vehicles only on a practical basis. People view their vehicles as an extension of their personality - are you a VW bug kind of person, or a jeep person, or a convertible sports car or a Tesla guy? I suppose you could look at this whole thing as stupid, but we don't wear nondescript, practical clothes, eat bland, nutritious food, or live in utilitarian cubicles. As long as the person is aware of the risks, why is it a less valid choice than eating a Big Mac? EDIT: removed 5 after /u/dopperpod showed I was wrong.### Human: No, my entire argument isn't solely about safety, but safety has to be accounted for when motorcycles are so much more unsafe than other forms of transportation. While some cars are more dangerous than others, the difference between the most dangerous car and the safest car pales in comparison between a motorcycle and the most dangerous car. As for your individual points, #1, #2, #4 and #5 are all more applicable to public transportation, bicycling and walking. #3 is a dangerous behavior which further increases the already high risk of injury or death when riding a motorcycle. #6 I agree with and understand, but do not believe that it simply being fun is a significant enough reason to off-set the enormous risks of riding a motorcycle. > As long as the person is aware of the risks, why is it a less valid choice than eating a Big Mac? I'm not advocating for motorcycles to be banned. I am simply saying it is a stupid choice to make, just like regularly eating a Big Mac on a daily basis is a stupid choice to make for one's health.### Assistant: > the difference between the most dangerous car and the safest car pales in comparison between a motorcycle and the most dangerous car. But what is the threshold? The Kia Rio had 149 deaths per million vehicles, compared to zero for the Volvo XC90. While single out motorcycles (especially when advocating bikes?). As for public transportation, biking and walking, relatively few people live in places where they can use these alternative modes for their primary form of transportation. Now, sure, it's stupid if you are the primary breadwinner of 6 kids with no life insurance. But if you are single and have no debts, why can't you take risks? Are you not allowed to rock climb or BASE jump or whatever else? Mark Twain (I think, but I can't find the quote) said something along the lines of "My doctor says that if I quit smoking, I would live 10 years longer. Those years wouldn't be worth living." I wouldn't smoke or drive a motorcycle, but for someone without dependents to feel that way seems to me to be their right.### Human: > I wouldn't smoke or drive a motorcycle, but for someone without dependents to feel that way seems to me to be their right. Again, I'm not arguing that driving a motorcycle should be banned. Just because you have the right to do something, it doesn't mean that thing is not a stupid thing to do. > As for public transportation, biking and walking, relatively few people live in places where they can use these alternative modes for their primary form of transportation. According to a 2013 survey by the US Census Bureau, only 0.2% of people drive a motorcycle as their main commuting vehicle, which tells me that there are very few people for whom driving a motorcycle is the only viable form of commuting.### Assistant: So really, your view is that risking your health to have fun is a stupid thing to do. Motorcycles don't really have too much to do with it, besides being an example.### Human: No, that isn't my view. My view is stated in my OP. Using motorcycles as a regular means of transportation, instead of as merely an occasional treat (much like the Big Mac example elsewhere in the thread) is a stupid decision because of the safety risks among other reasons.### Assistant: >Riding a motorcycle to get around is risky. >Doing risky things is stupid if there is a less risky alternative. >Cars, transit and walking are less risky alternatives. >Therefore riding a motorcycle to get around is stupid. I honestly see this as the essence of your argument, at least in this chain of comments.### Human: Yes, the main reason why I believe that regularly riding a motorcycle is a stupid thing to do is because of the safety risks. But as a rational decision maker I understand that there are risks and benefits to all kinds of decisions. Therefore it is important to understand if the same sorts of benefits can be attained (or nearly attained) through other far less risky means. In the vast majority of cases, those benefits can be attained or nearly attained through other forms of transportation.### Assistant: [removed]

### Human: CMV Stated funded Religious schools should not exist### Assistant: The fairness of it lies in the public funding. Should a religious school get the same funding as others? In the UK, as long as they follow a prescribed curriculum, they get funding. The Catholic schools merely teach more. There is no requirement that a school NOT teach things in order to receive funding. To more indirectly answer you, if the religion of the school factors into your decision and causes you to think of that school as undesirable, then perhaps it is not the "best." That's a very subjective statement. Also, there is a misunderstanding: Catholic schools in the UK do not generally require their students to become Catholic. They merely give priority to Catholics when too many people sign up. That makes sense for a school that delivers religious lessons with a Catholic focus (though they do teach most religions in religious studies class, it is from a Catholic viewpoint).### Human: Do catholic schools open longer hours? If not then that means some of the prescribed curriculum is put to the side so teaching of the catholic religion can take place. Or RE is mostly focused and bias to the one religion. So if a child does attend a catholic school but opts of out taking part in catholic studies, what happens? Do they sit in a classroom segregated from the others? The fact the local school is safe, well maintained, rates well with the education board and has a better reputation between parents makes this the best choice for me. Being catholic is the only con. A child deserves a good education### Assistant: >Do catholic schools open longer hours? If not then that means some of the prescribed curriculum is put to the side so teaching of the catholic religion can take place. It's entirely possible that the schools are open days public schools would be closed, or simply do different in school events. For example, when I attended a catholic school we would have a mass instead of pep rallies or other assemblies. >So if a child does attend a catholic school but opts of out taking part in catholic studies, what happens? Do they sit in a classroom segregated from the others? The students don't usually opt out of taking catholic studies. They attend the religion classes with their peers and bring their secular (or Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever) view into that class with them. In my experience my secular viewpoint allowed for more nuanced and interesting discussion. >The fact the local school is safe, well maintained, rates well with the education board and has a better reputation between parents makes this the best choice for me. Being catholic is the only con. You realize it's likely that a significant part of that school being safe, well maintained, and having a good reputation is likely because it's a religious school? You can't simply seperate a major part of a school's identity and think the school will stay the same. >A child deserves a good education Your problem seems more to be with the fact you dislike the other schools in your region. After all, the catholic school isn't refusing secular students, so you can't say it's their fault.### Human: > The students don't usually opt out of taking catholic studies. But *can* they?### Assistant: I imagine that's a question for the school, not for Reddit. I can't imagine the type of person that would wish to send their child to a religious school (fully understanding that it permeates all aspects of the school) but isn't okay with exposing their child to a religion.### Human: The point is that my tax dollars should not be paying for a school to teach other people's children about religion. Religions make more than enough money themselves, they do *not* need public money. If the Catholic church wants to indoctrinate children, they can sell one or two of the priceless works of art in the Vatican and fund every Catholic school worldwide indefinitely.### Assistant: The Catholic schools I attended in the Netherlands had virtually no influence from the church apart from working together so you could enroll for your confirmation through school and they'd pass it to the church. The high school taught religion instead of philosophy. Now before u get upset about students missing out on philosophy. They didn't. The class was mostly philosophy. But you'd have 4 or 5 classes shortly covering most major religions. No tests on it or anything. The Catholic school is not a tool for the Catholic Church. It's a tool for the government to provide education to everyone.### Human: At that point why is it even called a Catholic school?### Assistant: As with many schools here. Tradition. And as I said. Philosophy class deviates slightly. There's no prayer in class. There's no crosses etc. There are more strict religious schools in areas of course that also get government funding (Islamic schools. Jewish schools etc) but they are all held to the same standards.### Human: the Netherlands is a super secular country though, far more so than places like the USA, UK, or Australia.### Assistant: I think it's mostly the people are very secular. The society was build on pillars where catholics. Reformed etc all had their own communities and for years developed like that. Now those pillars are gone and it is more united. But there is still lots of religious organisations that all get funded by the government. But the people don't identify as their religion as often so these organisations focus on public service as opposed to religious service.

### Human: CMV I think that if you "live your life by the Bible" then you should follow all of the rules laid out for you, not just the ones that sound nice or are convenient.### Assistant: The Old Testament is full of rules that are God's covenant with the tribes of Israel, his requirements for them to atone for the original sin of Adam. The New Testament tells the story of Jesus being sent to earth to break that covenant, and erase the original sin that required it in the first place. Upon his death, the covenant is broken and the sin is cleansed, with the new covenant being Jesus's rules as presented in the New Testament. I'm an atheist who thinks all of this is fanfic, but as far as the internal consistency applying the book itself, the book itself says in the second half that everything you learned in the first half need not apply.### Human: Yeah, but many Christians seem to pick and choose stuff from the OT they want to keep. Jesus didn't say a word about homosexuality or abortion. Leviticus, which condemns homosexuality, also condemns getting tattoos, wearing poly/ cotton blends, and shaving.### Assistant: Paul talks about homosexuality in the New Testament, which is how many Christians justify that that particular law still applies. Abortion isn't mentioned necessarily, but most American, evangelical Christians consider a pro-life stance to be in keeping with what the Bible says about life coming from God and therefore being of great value even before birth. A popular (OT) passage used to back pro-life values comes from Psalm 139: "13For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." Source: went to an evangelical Christian college in the US### Human: [Numbers 5] (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/5.html#11) seems to be advocating abortion for unfaithful women.### Assistant: But again, most American evangelical Christians don't really regard Leviticus, Numbers, etc. as applicable to them because it was part of a specific covenant made with the people of Israel, in a specific time and place. Since Christ fulfilled the letter of the law, Christians are free from that burden and tend to gravitate toward their "law" as coming from the common themes of the New Testament rather than the complicated specifics of a covenant that wasn't written for them. Are there inconsistencies? Sure. But can you take the Bible as a literal document without feeling compelled to follow each individual guideline? Absolutely, if you contextualize it.### Human: Numbers 5 shows that the Old Testament God regarded an unborn child as disposable in that instance though. My daughter's religious studies teacher was surprised this chapter existed!

### Human: CMV: Hipsterism is the culture of 2010's America and the negativity towards it is in the same vein as in the 60's and 70's counterculture.### Assistant: The hippy movement in the 60's and 70's were protesting about Vietnam which was a very real specter. Hipsters are struggling to be the most cool. They have to listen to music that no one else is listening to. They have to drink PBR before the popular people are doing it. Hipsters come from a need to feel special. It is a trend that started in NYC. Of course the south isn't going to support it. This would be true regardless if GWB was president or not. edit one F### Human: Hipsters do good work though. Go to a hipster coffee shop it will have great coffee.### Assistant: > Go to a hipster coffee shop it will have great coffee. In my experience, it will have pretentious coffee (obscurely sourced beans, oddball brewing methods, foam art), not necessarily great coffee.### Human: How odd are we talking here? Because although obscurely sourced beans, "oddball" brewing methods, and foam art don't necessarily produce great coffee, all the best coffee comes from obscurely sourced beans, oddball brewing, and usually is topped by some foam art.### Assistant: I don't consider a French press or single-origin coffee "oddball"; I'm talking about vacuum pots that look like they belong in either a *Frankenstein* remake or an Apple Store, used to brew coffees that come with a Gabriel Garcia Marquez novel describing the history of the plantation where the coffee was harvested.

### Human: CMV: If in my language, "cunt" does not have a sexist connotation to it, then people of cultures where "cunt" does have a sexist connotation have no right to demand that I not say that word### Assistant: Offense is subjective, at all times. If the person you are speaking with is offended by something you are saying, then it is, by definition, offensive. Now, does that automatically make you wrong? Of course not. It just means you need to have a conversation. In an ideal scenario, that person would explain to you that in their culture, that's a very offensive and sexist word, and you would explain that in yours, it is very much not, and the two of you would come to an understanding where you'd probably try to be mindful of that, and they'd understand that you don't mean anything sexist by it. That's how that should work, regardless of where you are. Someone can demand all they like that you not say that word, and you're free to ignore them. But let's go with a different example, apart from just a word. Let's take an event. Irish car bombs. To a lot of English and Irish people, the fact that we in the US have a drink that basically mocks a bunch of their people getting blown up in terrorist acts is deplorable. Can they demand that I not talk about that drink on the internet? Sure. Do I have to listen? No. I'm not in their country, and in my country an Irish Car Bomb isn't anything offensive. It's a drink. But being a decent person, I'm at least MINDFUL of the fact that saying that can evoke some painful memories and thoughts for those people.### Human: I'd just like to point out, as an Irish person, that I know very very few people who would be offended by that drink. Go right ahead and drink it with an easy conscience.### Assistant: As an Irish person, do you get offended by the constantly-drunk-off-their-asses Irish stereotype we have here in America? Assuming you being Irish means you know other Irish people (forgive me if I'm wrong), do Irish people seem to get offended by this stereotype or just laugh at it? This isn't directly related to OP's CMV, but it is tangentially related and I'm curious to expand my views.### Human: Not the person you replied to but am Irish so can answer. It depends on the context the stereotype is brought up in. If someone seems like they are deliberately trying to get a rise out of someone or are deliberately attempting to be derogatory when they say something like all Irish are a bunch of drunks then it will at least grate against a lot of people. But if it's brought up in a light hearted fashion then most will laugh along with the joke or at least brush it off without giving it too much thought. Taking the piss (means to mock each other in case that's not a universal saying) is a pretty big part of our culture, so you can say anything to most Irish people and as long as it's meant as a joke most will take it that way. There are of course always exceptions.### Assistant: It seems like most things then where you should just generally have good intent and be mindful of how people are reacting to what you say. Thank you for the insight! Happy new year! :)

### Human: CMV: Asexuality is a mental illness.### Assistant: [removed]### Human: My testosterone levels last I was tested were at 830 micrograms per deciliter. I don't masturbate at all.### Assistant: You don't jerk off at all? Not trying to be gay or weird but what are your wet dreams like then?### Human: When I remember them, they usually involve physical contact with women, but without sex.### Assistant: Have you tried a prostitute or even a sex therapist? I feel like you are young enough this could be ironed out if you try. You don't have to get a trashy street walker either. One of these guys I play rpgs with accidentally revealed he was a 32 year old virgin. I got him this nice Asian girl who was super sweet to him and he was a regular for almost a year after that until he got a girlfriend. With a prostitute there is no pressure on you so you can just try things and she can try things and if it doesn't work out no hard feelings.### Human: How much do prostitutes cost in Jacksonville, FL? I'm still in school and have no job. As far as sex therapists go, I have a psychotherapist I go to, but I'm not sure how to bring up the topic.### Assistant: I have no idea how much one costs in Florida but I'm sure there is a subreddit for all kinds of info on the best way to get one, fair price, etc. You can just bring it up to your therapist. Just say, "I have zero sex drive and I think there might be something going on." Also are you now or were you as a child on mood altering medication? Antidepressants, amphetamines, anti anxiety, etc?### Human: I've been mostly asexual for a long time, and I stopped taking Focalin XR late November and haven't had much change in libido. I'm still taking Accutane, and have been since early October.

### Human: I think it's crazy and stupid that people are so against "mainstream" music. CMV!### Assistant: First of all, I'll agree that music is music is music. It actually really bugs me when people say something "isn't music", it's a really pretentious and inaccurate thing to say. However, I do believe that much of mainstream music **is not the actual product of the artist themselves**. A lot of mainstream pop artists are just pretty faces that get pasted onto the work of professional producers and songwriters who never get the full credit they deserve. I'm sure those professionals are even okay with that, because they're earning a boatload of money to make music. I guess it depends on what you value in music. What I value most in music is creative expression, so I'm thoroughly unimpressed by pop stars who don't seem like they have much to do with the creation of their own music. But if you're just listening to music for pop hooks, then that music is fine and you probably aren't reading that much into it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking Justin Bieber or Brittany Spears are bringing anything to the equation other than vocal talent and good looks. Another reason not to listen to mainstream music is because **music is diversifying like never before**. Services like spotify, pandora, and filesharing networks make it so easy to explore thousands of indie artists from all genres. They make music that is just as good as mainstream radio pop, but they are actual creative talents whose music is genuinely their product and theirs alone. I would rather listen to their music than mainstream pop because I get **both the hooks, and the appreciation that comes from legitimate creative expression**. And if that's not enough, it's also just not so damned repetitive. I can only listen to the same mainstream pop song on the radio so many times before it becomes absolutely boring to me.### Human: > explore thousands of indie artists from all genres. They make music that is just as good as mainstream radio pop, but they are actual creative talents whose music is genuinely their product and theirs alone. I would rather listen to their music than mainstream pop because I get both the hooks, and the appreciation that comes from legitimate creative expression. My only issue with this is, just because the mainstream performer doesn't necessarily play a large, or unilateral role in creating the music, doesn't mean someone else hasn't. It's still "legitimate, creative expression," it's just done by a visionary, or a team of knowledgeable and talented people, 'behind the scenes.' The producers, songwriters, recording engineers, video directors etc.### Assistant: Well, yes and no, I'd say. It's true that someone has still put effort into writing a mainstream song. At the same time, however, pop songs are usually written for the specific purpose of making money and to appeal to a wide audience; whereas indie artists usually write for a smaller audience and don't make much money, therefore creating a more unique and more musically-motivated sound. That's why we can talk about some artists "selling out," like Mumford and Sons. As their audience grew, their songs became much cheaper and less unique. They're producing songs less than a brand.### Human: There's a blog called www.savingcountrymusic.com that, while obviously skewing towards country music, explains the processes of mainstream music "artists" songwriting and such. As some of these country artists cross over to the pop side of things, it is applicable here. The increasing homogeneity is one of the biggest drawbacks to this - as well as the fact that these are basically scientific formulas sold as music to the masses. It feels cheap and wrong - and unfair somehow.### Assistant: Hey, this is cool! Thanks for sharing.

### Human: CMV: Circumcision should not be common practice.### Assistant: I'm not going to argue pro-circumcision, but some of your info may be misleading. >Some studies have showed that the loss of foreskin resulted in decreased masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment. That study (plus the study in Denmark, which is utter garbage) state this result. However two far larger studies with larger controls (the effects of circumcision could be measured soon after the procedure) state otherwise. [1] (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2007.07369.x/abstract;jsessionid=009F6B76F7D12C1BFEAC49CFDC588C6C.f02t02?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+Saturday%2C+7+June+from+10%3A00-15%3A00+BST+%2805%3A00-10%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=) [2](http://erepository.uonbi.ac.ke/handle/11295/16211) ------ Your bits about HIV seem a bit off base (excepting the first point). Nobody claims either of the following 1) Circumcision is 100% effective or 2) Circumcision has any effect on non M/F sexual intercourse. This fact makes most of your arguments against this topic irrelevant if not strawmen. A 60% reduction in disease transmission (from your post) is a VERY significant effect. One thing to think about as well: go to a nursing home sometime and talk to the CNA's or whatever individuals do the regular care. Ask them about circumcision. It is amazing the lack of care and rate of infection in uncircumcised males in these places. It's sad and preventable, but remember that you will not always be in charge of keeping it clean.### Human: > A 60% reduction in disease transmission (from your post) is a VERY significant effect. Great! Early research into female circumcision has shown the same 60% reduction in HIV infection. Time to get slicing those little baby girl labia lips eh? **Female Circumcision & Health Benefits** *"Stallings et al. (2005) reported that, in Tanzanian women, the risk of HIV among women who had undergone FGC was roughly half that of women who had not; the association remained significant after adjusting for region, household wealth, age, lifetime partners, union status, and recent ulcer."* Note: when it's found that circumcising *female* genitals reduces HIV/AIDS it's called a *"conundrum"* rather that a wonderfully exciting "medical" opportunity to reduces HIV/AIDS. http://www.iasociety.org/Default.aspx?pageId=11&abstractId=2177677 *"Georgia State University, Public Health Theses"* — a USA University of international renown: The Association between Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) and the Risk of HIV/AIDS in Kenyan Girls and Women (15-49 Years): *"RESULTS: This study shows an inverse association (OR=0.508; 95% CI: 0.376-0.687) between FGM and HIV/AIDS, after adjusting for confounding variables."* *"DISCUSSION: The inverse association between FGM and HIV/AIDS established in this study suggests a possible protective effect of female circumcision against HIV/AIDS. This finding suggests therefore the need to authenticate this inverse association in different populations and also to determine the mechanisms for the observed association."* *"This study investigated whether there is a direct association between FGM and HIV/AIDS. Surprisingly, the results indicated that the practice of FGM turned out to reduce the risk of HIV. While a positive association was hypothesized, a surprising inverse association between cases of female circumcision and positive HIV serostatus was obtained, hence indicating that FGM may have protective properties against the transmission of HIV."* http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1113&context=iph_theses *"National Bureau of Statistics, Tanzania - 50% reduction in HIV/AIDS in women who have have parts of the genitals amputated:"* http://www.tzonline.org/pdf/femalecircumcisionandhivinfectionintanzania.pdf### Assistant: Why do you insist on taking up strawmen? If FGM did provide a significant reduction in HIV that *would* be a significant point in favor of it. Of course that would have to be weighed against cost, **as I've already stated for male circumcision**.### Human: > If FGM did provide a significant reduction in HIV that would be a significant point in favor of it. Yeah. Sure. LOL. Try hopping over to /r/Feminism/ or /r/TwoXChromosomes/ and posting that there. Then, if you are still alive, come and tell us how you got on! Any other bits of the human anatomy you want to subject to your "cost/benefit analysis?"### Assistant: You can admit that a procedure has a benefit without being FOR the procedure... Not doing so is simply dishonest. I find FGM abhorrent, and even if it did reduce HIV transmission rates, I don't think it would determine that FGM is the proper way to do so. However, any medical procedure is going to be a cost-benefit analysis. Edit- Yes. I would subject ANY part of my anatomy to a cost/benefit analysis. Any rational person would. For more important organs, the benefits will have a much harder time outweighing the cost.### Human: > You can admit that a procedure has a benefit without being FOR the procedure... Not doing so is simply dishonest. Cutting off your nose has benefits; as does me stealing your car (you'll never need to repair it, and your gas bill will be zero). I'm not dishonest; but I'm not stupid either. > I find FGM abhorrent Well that's a start. How about MGM? Is that abhorrent as well? > and even if it did reduce HIV transmission rates, I don't think it would determine that FGM is the proper way to do so. Why not? If it works for males why not for females? Don't you want sexual equality in health care? Far more women die of HIV/AIDS in Africa than men, and MGM provides almost no benefit to women. Why not slice off a women's inner labia lips and skin the interior of her outer labia lips? That would remove most of the exterior mucus membranes that seem to be the issue with HIV transmission. You don't need to amputate the external glans clitoris; and of course the whole thing would be done in sterile conditions. And much research has show that FGM does not reduce womens' sexual response. You would save millions of lives. > I would subject ANY part of my anatomy to a cost/benefit analysis. True - but it's funny how the *only* part of the human body that is constantly subject to this "analysis" is the male foreskin? And that people make sweeping judgements and assumptions about its functions and properties.### Assistant: >Cutting off your nose has benefits Yes, but they are **far outweighed by the costs** >as does me stealing your car (you'll never need to repair it, and your gas bill will be zero). Yes, but they are **far outweighed by the costs** >Well that's a start. How about MGM? Is that abhorrent as well? Ugh. FGM is abhorrent because of the costs... Which are very different than male circumcision. >Why not? If it works for males why not for females? Don't you want sexual equality in health care? Far more women die of HIV/AIDS in Africa than men, and MGM provides almost no benefit to women. Ok... Let's break this down. FGM =/= MC. The costs are different. The HIV reduction alone does not generate a reason to circumcise. That benefit (among others) **must** be weighed against the physical and emotional costs of the procedure. That is what I've been claiming this whole time. >True - but it's funny how the only part of the human body that is constantly subject to this "analysis" is the male foreskin? And that people make sweeping judgements and assumptions about its functions and properties. What? *Doctors do this type of thing all the time*. As does everyone else. Women have to consider whether to use preventative mastectomies. You have to decide whether it is worth the risk of death to try to heal an infection or amputate. You take out your appendix when it gets inflamed. You cut your nails, you pull a tooth, etc.etc.etc. The only difference is that many of these cases the cost/benefit is obvious. I don't consider whether it would be a good thing to cut off my hand because the costs obviously outweigh the benefits.

### Human: CMV: It is unreasonable to expect people not to impose their moral standards on others### Assistant: Humility. My cherished beliefs may be wrong. For almost every person out there, there is probably someone else far wiser than them in every way who has an opposing moral view. You may even change your own morality throughout your lifetime. Society You certainly would have a different moral outlook if you were born in Yemen, or in ancient Sparta - the vast majority of your beliefs are cultural, where 'true' or not. Given this, is arguing over morality really much different from picking football sides? If you say 'modern democracy is the best form of government' are you really saying anything other than 'I was alive in 20th-21st Century in the Western world'?### Human: Sure, but then what is to prevent what all but a few of us agree to be moral atrocities? Should we allow human sacrifice and rape simply because our "cherished beliefs might be wrong?" I'm trying to resolve the dissonance between the idea of moral obligations and not imposing morality on others.### Assistant: > human sacrifice and rape Sounds like some people are imposing their moral standards on others. They shouldn't do that.### Human: Rape is when someone forces another to have sex with them. That's merely protection of someone's rights (self ownership). Imposing morality would be in regards to victimless "crimes" such as drugs or prostitution.### Assistant: The idea of rights like self-ownership is cultural.### Human: No, rights like self ownership are intrinsic. Who could possibly have a greater claim to you, except yourself?### Assistant: In some cultures it's your husband.

### Human: CMV:If Drug Dealers are responsible for the destruction of individuals' lives they sell to, then Alcohol/Tobacco/Drug Companies/Casinos are equally as responsible### Assistant: I would disagree that criminalizing drug dealing has anything to do with "ruining lives," it is simply the act of establishing a business outside of government regulations. For example, selling organs is also illegal despite the fact that obtaining an organ could potentially *save* a life.### Human: ELI5- why is organ/blood selling illegal? I mean if the person consents to it and it doesn't threaten them in any way, it should be legal.### Assistant: Suddenly you're selling to the highest bidder instead of giving it to the most in need.### Human: Makes sense, thanks! However, what would the highest bidder do with it? Go to another country or something and sell it for even higher?### Assistant: I'm speculating here, but probably offer it on some side channels to people on waiting lists for that organ. Wherever they offer it, they'll create an unregulated market trading a product (literally) vital to the customer. That creates a perverse incentive structure (similar to the Martin Shkreli situation recently...)### Human: Also without being regulated, there are a lot of dangers to both the donor and the receiver.

### Human: CMV: Ted Cruz is a phony deceiver. He is not running in order to better America; he only wants power, fame, and notoriety for himself.### Assistant: > Connecting the dots, we can infer that he has prepared to run for POTUS for decades not for the betterment of the country but for himself. Why are the two mutually exclusive? I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a professional physicist *both* to improve the human condition and my own. I get paid a pretty penny, I find it intellectually stimulating, I enjoy some modest celebrity in my field, and, modesty aside, I find I'm better at it than most and the world is a better place with me doing science than, say, trading options on Wall Street. I see no reason why someone like Mr. Cruz couldn't approach the presidency similarly.### Human: Well maybe they don't have to be for a physicist, but the president has significant power over others and the ability to affect a lot of lives for the better or worse. I want a president that's in it for the people more than for the power.### Assistant: That doesn't detract from my point. There's no reason to believe Cruz is running *solely* for purposes of self-aggrandizement. He could be among those who believe that they can do good for others by doing good for themselves. It's not an exclusive group: I'd challenge you to name any president (or serious contender for the office) who *didn't* have a good bit of personal ambition and narcissism.### Human: I don't disagree with you, but to me it's about the balance. I would change "solely" to "primarily", Cruz is just in it for himself *too much more* than he is in it for the people.### Assistant: Fair point. Thanks for the clarification.

### Human: I believe that the recent fixation of the western world with "terrorism" is a modern rebranding of McCarthyism and the red scare. CMV### Assistant: It's true that the US has had certain enemy groups over the year (Germans in WWI, Nazis and the Japanese during WWII, Communists during the Cold War, and Islamic terrorists today,) but this is not the same thing as McCarthyism. Joseph McCarthy specifically targeted American political opponents as being communists. No political figure today is accusing their political opponents of secretly being a terrorist. Even when idiots like Donald Trump would accuse Obama of being a secret muslim or a foreigner, no politician was willing to publicly say that they thought he was a terrorist. During the Red Scare, people were worried that Americans would become communists and take over the US from the inside. Today, no one fears that American citizens will convert to Islam and become terrorists. McCarthyism was about fear of an internal, domestic threat. Terrorism is about fear of an external, foreign threat. So while you are right that the word "terrorist" is being bandied about as a justification to reduce civil liberties, and there is somewhat of a moral panic, it is not the same as what happened during McCarthyism and the Red Scare.### Human: Obama just won a political spat by calling the House Republicans terrorists and using that as a justification for not negotiating with terrorists. to clarify: this is analogous to calling opponents Commies, not to McCarthy's list of actual Soviet agents. That one is more analogous to the nofly list.### Assistant: Did Obama actually call anyone a terrorist? A couple minutes of furious googling only found mentions of someone called Dan Pfeiffer, who is a white house staffer, but not actually Obama, doing so.### Human: His staffers do what he tells them. He personally spoke the word hostagetaking rather than terrorist per se.### Assistant: So would you like to: 1) retract your statement that Obama called them terrorists 2) support the argument that Obama can be considered personally responsible for everything all of his staffers say, or 3) support the argument that the term "hostage-taking" is equivalent to the term "terrorism?"### Human: senior staffers do not make inflammatory statements without their boss's permission. If they do they are fired. If they speak with permission but their boss is getting flak they are merely reprimanded. Obama did neither. Instead he used the phrase hostage taking, which is what terrorists do: they say do as I want or innocents will die. When they can they take hostages prisoner and release their names; when they can't they bomb at random, trying to take whole cities hostage. Taking vspecific hostages is much more effective, of course, because we know they can kill those people but we ddon't know if they can bomb again.### Assistant: Is it inconceivable that Pfeiffer could have been reprimanded, but not publicly? My counter to your argument about "hostage-taking" being equivalent to "terrorism" is that people who are not terrorists do engage in hostage-taking. For instance, bank robbers. If "terrorists take hostages" made "hostage taking" equivalent to "terrorism," then "murder," "assault," and "conspiracy" would also be equivalent to "terrorism." Finally, do you think Obama's use of the term "hostage-taking" was inaccurate?### Human: The reason bank robbers aren't terrorists is that their aim is profit and not politics. The House Republicans had a political goal. If they'd taken literalhostages they would be terrorists. It is highly unlikely that Pfeiffer spoke without instructions given that what he said was inflammatory, dovetailed perfectly with Obamas strategy of not negotiating and he wasn't fired.### Assistant: So is it your claim that "taking hostages for a political goal" is equivalent to "terrorism?" Do you think Obama's use of the term "hostage-taking" was edit: *inapt?### Human: Taking hostages for a political goal constitutes terrorism, yes. Obama's use was not entirely inapt.### Assistant: If it was reasonable for Obama to metaphorically call House Republicans terrorists, why was it problematic? The only reason McCarthy's crusade was problematic was because it was so often directed against people who weren't at all enemies of the state.### Human: They were more communist than the republicans today are terrorist. Nor are the republicansenemies of the US### Assistant: I don't see how your comment is responsive to mine. Do you think Obama's comment was problematic?### Human: Yes, much like McCarthy, he was stigmatizing his political foes rather thantreating them as people who disagree but merit respect. to repeat since its been a while, McCarthy's list of actual Soviet agents is more like the TSA no-fly list### Assistant: If you think his metaphor was apt, why was it problematic? To me, the only reason McCarthy's crusade was problematic was because it was mostly false. Had the targets of his investigation been mostly actual enemies of the state, and not mere political opponents, then he'd be a hero. While house republicans are presumably not enemies of the state, Obama didn't claim that they were. What he did do was use a metaphor to describe their actions, which you have admitted was apt.### Human: On a scale from 0 to 100, calling a republican a commie is a 30, calling a democrat a commie is a 35, and calling a house republican a terrorist is a 15. none are zero and none are close to 100..### Assistant: I have no idea what you're talking about.### Human: None of the people in Congress today are terrorists, and calling them terrorists is approximately as helpful as calling them Commies.### Assistant: I don't see "helpfulness" as the relevant measure here, since whether the comparison was "helpful" or not depends a lot on what your goals are or were. Whether the metaphor was apt or not seems like the more pressing question.### Human: It is as apt as calling a snake a dog. That is to say, very slightly.### Assistant: That seems wholly inapt to me.### Human: okOK, then wholly inapt.### Assistant: Why is it wholly inapt then? It seems pretty apt to me, honestly, since it was a scenario in which the republicans were making demands "or else," and the "or else" was an extremely costly government shutdown.### Human: Its closer to a union striking. Terrorists take people hostage, despite the fact that those people have a right to live. Companies and governments can shut down. They have no inalienable right to continue operations unmolested in the way that humans have a right to live.### Assistant: That's interesting. I think the government shutdown was not equivalent to a company shutdown, because government services are treated differently from private sector wages, as more of a guarantee than a payment for work.### Human: I disagree, I don't think anything the government does is a guarantee except for treaties, and even those we break all the time (we don't even fulfill our treaty obligations to native american tribes). If they were a guarantee though, bear in mind that the republicans sent through bills that would continue them, and the democrats refused to accept those unless money was provided for the new ACA expenses. So i ddon't think any of this is terrorism, but if we went with the analogy it would work better for the democrats than for the republicans. The thing the republicans did was different, it was using the budgeting process more aggressively than usual to defend laws, when normally its only used to defund Presidential decrees.### Assistant: I think that they're supposed to be guarantees, and are morally equivalent to guarantees, and that our breaking of our treaty responsibilities is absolutely deplorable. I agree with everything else you said, but I don't think that the government shutdown is equivalent to a private sector strike because of the very different role government plays in people's lives. A private sector strike would mean that a product would be temporarily unavailable. Potentially disastrous, but not necessarily. The government shutdown, if it continued, would have been disastrous for people who depend on social security and medicare benefits.### Human: Anything people become used to, they can be dependent on. A grocery store, water company, a war, an apple tree, whatever. When one causes major disruptions to others, one needs to be cognizant of the impact. Whether one is shutting down a restaurant or a national park, one has a duty to make things non disruptive - giving directions to other grocery stores, letting private citizens man monuments, etc. but nobody shut down social security. If they had, tthey'd have a moral obligation to make the impact as seamless as feasible. now that we know what the government will start doing more often, it would be wise to transfer as much of social security as possible away from direct government control to reduce the impact of shenanigans

### Human: CMV: The "New Atheism" is a religious movement.### Assistant: You're correct that the word "religion" does not need to include belief in a deity of any sort. However, every definition of the word that I can find involves an institutionalized system of rituals, practices, and beliefs in the supernatural. Atheism features nothing of the sort. There are no atheist churches, or organizations of any sort, that decide on doctrine. No rituals. No system of ethics. No consistent or doctrinal beliefs about the world. Nothing that resembles religion in any way except that it's a subject that people identify with and gather to discuss. That's something that's also true of *My Little Pony*. If you live in Europe, or certain parts of the US, atheism as a movement probably seems like a strange thing, since everyone pretty much believes what they want to believe and leaves everyone else alone. In other parts of the US, atheists are reviled, and those who come out as atheists risk being ostracized, or worse. In other parts of the world, atheists can be jailed or executed. There's a lot of crap on /r/atheism, but every day there's a story of someone who's been hurt by religion in some way and is looking for support. There are people who are trying to find out how to come out to their families. Their are people who *have* come out to their families and been disowned. There are people who can't come out because they know that if anyone else knows, they'll be executed. My personal opinion is that religion itself isn't a problem; there are problems *with* religion, and these problems are causing human suffering on a massive scale, and have been for thousands of years. In that environment, it makes sense for there to be a community of like-minded people who oppose all of that. I like NdGT, but his famous "non-golfers" comment is completely asinine. If golfers had a controlling interest in politics, a cultural monopoly, a massive hegemony, and used their sport of choice as an excuse to hurt and control others and continually got away with it, you can be damn sure that "non-golfers" would be a thing.### Human: Just so someone WAS hurt by religion doesn't justify the antitheism attitude. This attitude is equivalent to the anti-semitic ideology, divorced from its resulting behaviors, and arbitrarily restricted to the West, it's dangerous, and it's disgusting. Nothing justifies it. EDIT: striking out words doesn't work for some reason EDIT: I just removed the original version, and switched it for the new version because that directly relates to what I am trying to say. Addenum: I had a pretty good discussion. Sadly, no one really attacked the actual argument I was trying to make, except czerilla and we ended up agreeing. Probably should hand out deltas. Mostly just arguments on semantics and other discursive subjects. I still had a good discussion and I thought it was fun, besides being downvoted by 50 points... Whatever, no one cares about reddiquette anymore and I am not in the popular position. Next time I won't make the same mistake, and be sure to warn others who want their karma. EDIT: Wow, I get attacked for being Marxist now. Thank you mods for deleting that### Assistant: You're saying that the fact that people live under the threat of death because they refuse to believe in God doesn't warrant a response? That people should just suck it up and accept it? Comparing atheism or antitheism to antisemitism is completely baseless and asinine. I find the fact that you would even make that comparison very unsettling. Antisemitism is a *racial* hatred. It's based on what people *are*, not on what they *choose to think*. It resulted in the death and subjugation of millions of people this last century alone, and this comparison is a snide and superficial diminishment of the suffering they had to endure. What exactly has anyone ever done in the name of atheism or antitheism that even remotely compares to history's legacy of antisemitic violence and oppression?### Human: It is to antisemitism as this anti theism mov ement is promoting hate against a group of people. When exactly has the western world ever killed atheists within the last decade that warrants a hate movement?### Assistant: It's not a movement against people, it's a movement against a belief system. This makes it different from anti-Semitism.### Human: The movement is composed of people who hate the belief system, and to an extension, the people who harbor those beliefs. Ergo, the movement is against a group of people.### Assistant: I think you're reaching on the extension to hating the people. You can be very against a set of beliefs without hating the people who hold them.### Human: Yes, it is very well posssible. But take a quick look at one of the most popular subs in reddit, atheism. They are part of the new atheism movement. The average joe is incapable of making the distinction you made, and it resulted in a hateful group.### Assistant: Most people on /r/atheism don't really hate groups of people. Its very possible to hate the idea of Islam without hating Muslims.### Human: Yes it is possible. I don't think you have visited atheism in some time? The place is crawling with people who outright hate religious people. Most posts criticize religion at every turn.### Assistant: I think you're equating the disliking of the religions to the disliking of the religious.

### Human: CMV: I don't understand why so many people like /r/tumblrinaction### Assistant: The difference is, TiA members are pretty clear that they don't believe *all* feminists are like that, just crazy tumblrite radfems. TiA members tend to be in favor of most of the ideals espoused by mainstream feminism. People posting satire and troll blogs is a problem on TiA that the mods are trying to combat and usually at least some people in the comments point out that it's a troll/satire post. Whereas doing so on SRS is a banworthy offense. I'll admit the thread you linked about Islamaphobia is depressing, but I've also seen a lot of instances of people on TiA jumping all over people expressing bigoted views.### Human: >TiA members are pretty clear that they don't believe all feminists are like that, just crazy tumblrite radfems. I don't know... I feel like that's starting to become less and less true as the sub has gotten bigger. I've seen people try and defend feminists but it's almost always met with downvotes and something about how "since feminists aren't actively campaigning against these extremists then that means they must support them!" That argument annoys me because I've seen so many bigots use it to justify hating all Muslims. >People posting satire and troll blogs is a problem on TiA that the mods are trying to combat and usually at least some people in the comments point out that it's a troll/satire post. Whereas doing so on SRS is a banworthy offense. I don't get how that counters my view? >'ll admit the thread you linked about Islamaphobia is depressing, but I've also seen a lot of instances of people on TiA jumping all over people expressing bigoted views. yeah that was one thing I liked about the sub at first but since it's gotten bigger I feel like it's become a losing battle..### Assistant: > it's almost always met with downvotes and something about how "since feminists aren't actively campaigning against these extremists then that means they must support them!" I haven't seen anything like this so I don't know what to say to this. > I don't get how that counters my view? Because in TiA, if someone posts a satire blog, people say, "That's a satire blog you idiot" and anyone who visits the thread can see those comments. In SRS, if someone links to an obvious joke post, there will be no comments in the thread saying, "That was clearly a joke" because any such comments will be deleted and their posters may be banned. I've also seen a fair amount of people (and been one of those people) in TiA who say, "Actually the post you linked has a really good point" and get upvotes and good discussion, whereas this is explicitly against the mission of SRS. > yeah that was one thing I liked about the sub at first but since it's gotten bigger I feel like it's become a losing battle.. They just programmed automod to remind people and had a mod post about satire blogs recently. They at least are trying, unlike SRS.### Human: Yeah that's a valid point. ∆ You changed my view on the fact that there's more leeway in bringing up concern about posts than in SRS. IMO though the number of satire posts is still a big issue and i think the mods there should use more judgment on their own part cause I've noticed that leaving things up to users doesn't work out well lol### Assistant: > I've noticed that leaving things up to users doesn't work out well lol You're preaching to the choir on that one.

### Human: I believe raising the minimum wage will ultimately end up hurting the working poor. CMV.### Assistant: Currently, you can't really offshore a number of low skill labor jobs, like a fast food worker's or a paper boy's. Regardless, the research out there is mixed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Empirical_studies. People have gone on to cherry pick information as they please but I suggest you read some of the big empirical studies done. As for now, however, there's really no definitive way to make an exact statement one way or another, although I personally lean towards the results of the Card-Kreuger study, having had Card as a professor. He is a brilliant man and I hope to see him get a Nobel one day. Regardless, the heart of the matter is, there is no strong consensus either way. You can believe what you want but the research isn't at all conclusive on one idea yet (as it often is in economics). I'm more of the idea that how much we raise the minimum wage is far more important than being in opposition to any and all increase for it. If the increase is near equilibrium levels set by the market, its effects should be negligible. It's hard to say you should be one way or the other. Perhaps you would enjoy joining us instead of the more neutral but leaning towards one way camp.### Human: I agree with OP but for a totally different reason. American consumers do not valuate products based on what they think the thing is worth, but based on what they *have*. For this reason, if minimum wage workers are paid more across the board, they'll be willing to pay more for their groceries. Because they'd be willing to pay more, they'd be charged more, thus leading to inflation and yet another need to raise the minimum wage. It's not a matter that they think things are worth more, but that when they're charged more the difference between competitors is mere pennies, so they *have no choice*. It's give up the raise to higher costs or don't eat. I've seen studies that show that in other countries, minimum wage increases have had no effect on inflation. But those are other countries. Here, it seems that basic items like meat and vegetables are priced proportionally to the minimum wage, and when those necessities go up, so does everything else. I know it's anecdotal, but it seems to me that every time I've said, "Great! They're increasing the minimum wage!" within a year I've said, "What the &@#@! This isn't worth ______ @#%$ing dollars! What the #&@^@ good did it do to raise the minimum wage?" I observed the same from my parents while growing up. That gets to be hard to ignore after enough repetitions, though to be fair, I don't know for sure if I'm biased in my reactions (inflation *seems* higher after a minimum rage hike) only because I was exposed to that perception as a child. I haven't approached this for extensive research because it's so clouded in political baloney from D.C. while an objective overview requires so much expertise that it's one of the few topics that intimidates me.### Assistant: What you're describing, is I believe, wage/price inflation or spirals. Either way, there is some literature on this: http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/policydis/pd1.pdf >It turns out that the vast majority of the published evidence suggests that there is little reason to believe that wage inflation causes price inflation...Moreover, wage inflation does a very poor job of predicting price inflation. http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/2235571.pdf?acceptTC=true&acceptTC=true&jpdConfirm=true >Because the US minimum is so low and affects such a small proportion of the work force it seems inconceivable that changes in the minimum could induce national wage inflation, and indeed the wage inflation argument has disappeared from discourse### Human: Those fit the criteria of examining the US itself while using strong, clear language. That shows me that I am experiencing a confirmation bias for sure (a change in view from considering it a possibility -- an important change in view), and gives me a starting place to build from. Thank you! ∆### Assistant: Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Bodoblock. ^[[History](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Bodoblock)] ^[[Wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltabot)][[Code](https://github.com/alexames/DeltaBot)][[Subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/DeltaBot/)]

### Human: CMV: We should not make school children say the pledge in the United States### Assistant: >I think it's wrong for us to force young children to say the Pledge of Allegiance We don't. Others have commented here to the same effect. If you want to get into the specifics of peer pressure/group dynamics, that's another (valid) conversation. If you want to talk about how the Pledge ought to be differently presented to students, that's yet another (valid) discussion. But no public educator or educational institution forces their students to say the pledge. So, sure, I think it's wrong to do so, and so does the Supreme Court of the United States of America. I don't think anyone here wants to or will be able to change your view on that subject. As for your inner monologue while hearing the pledge, I want to address these last two: >indivisible (not counting the Civil War...) This is really what that line references. The pledge was written long after the Civil War, and our nation survived it. Poetically, we are indivisible, since we survived the greatest challenge our nation has ever faced. >with liberty and justice for all (so long as you're not a woman, minority, immigrant, or homosexual... basically you're fine if you're a 'Merican born rich white man) This is an ideal to strive for, not an assessment of reality, and I don't think that there is anything wrong with teaching young children that our nation is built on beliefs of liberty and justice for all. Many young children may begin identifying the very injustices you mention **because** they know how America is supposed to be from the Pledge. EDIT: In response to all of the *"But I was forced! Don't make generalizations!"* spam in my inbox, you're missing the point. OP implies, in the original version of his post, that forcing students to say the pledge is both wrong and is a sanctioned, institutional practice. My response to him is that it is *clearly* wrong (within the standard of morality that we're operating under), and that fact is supported by the numerous court cases declaring it to be so. It is **not** an institutional practice. Responding with your personal anecdotes is akin to OP claiming that murder is wrong and should be stopped on a societal level, me pointing out that the U.S. legal system has identified it as such and that people don't do it, and then you chiming in *"but someone was murdered in my city just last week! Don't make generalizations!"*### Human: >We don't...no public educator or educational institution forces their students to say the pledge. Don't make sweeping statements. That's simply not true. I was forced to just a few years ago.### Assistant: That's your problem. From what I've gleaned, it's illegal and when brought to court, they lose.### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: Sorry Hovsky, your comment has been removed: > Comment Rule 2\. "Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if the rest of it is solid." [See the wiki page for more information.](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_2) If you would like to appeal, please [message the moderators by clicking this link.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Removed+Comment+Rule+2+Post+Appeal&message=Hovsky+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2mpdg9/cmv_we_should_not_make_school_children_say_the/cm6uds8\))### Human: Because that's so much more hostile than >That's your problem and everything he says after. People start a conversation hostile, they'll get it back.### Assistant: If someone is rude to you, please click "report" and don't reply. We rely on users to report rule-breaking posts because the mods are volunteers and it takes a lot of work to keep up with this: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments### Human: Fine, I removed that part.

### Human: I believe nuclear power is safe and there is no problem with it. CMV.### Assistant: Where does the waste go?### Human: Better places than the CO2/Methane/Greenhouse Gases.### Assistant: I'm specifically looking for a place on planet earth. Just being realistic. I agree completely with the concept of nuclear but the reality is that this will be attempted for profit and with last years technology. If we do this we should do it as right as possible, not as profitable as possible.### Human: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository### Assistant: They don't want it. Their local community has voted it out. Do we force them?### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: This is the correct answer.

### Human: CMV: It is impossible to commit a crime against "future generations"### Assistant: How about planting a roadside bomb? It's 10 AM and the bomb won't go off until noon. There is nobody on the road who will be killed; the future hypothetical murdered driver isn't even in their car right now. Just as it is possible to commit crimes against future unspecified drivers, it is possible to commit crimes against future generations. There may be a right for you to do what you want with your own property, but surely that right is not absolute. If you wish to bury nuclear waste in your yard, hopefully you have an obligation to keep it well sealed and mark it "radioactive". If you seal it for a century and mark it "time capsule", you have wronged future generations.### Human: Non-absolute property rights are a good argument. But imagine the limiting case: A communist world in which ALL property is owned collectively by everyone. If there was a collective decision to cause some damage to the property, in order to improve quality of life at the expense of future generations, would that be a crime?### Assistant: Why jump with both feet down the slippery slope? It's clear that an interpretation of property rights that allows you to poison the land for eternity is flawed; you have a limited lifetime and so does your claim on property. To apply the Louis C.K. categorical imperative: if everybody behaved that way, the Earth would rapidly become unlivable. It's also clear that an interpretation of property rights that allows no one to make any durable changes to property is also flawed. Can reasonable people reach a compromise that allows for property improvement without destroying the land for eternity? As a member of society whose property rights are an extension of the social contract, aren't you indeed obligated to meet some requirements placed on you by society, in return for the protection of laws and courts and rights?### Human: > Louis C.K. categorical imperative Did Louis CK make some kind of change to that that you're referencing, or are you unfamiliar with Immanuel Kant's work?### Assistant: It's obviously inspired by Kant's, but it looks like Louis is more concerned with the outcome of the collective-action than the reasoning behind the action. It's been a couple years since I've taken an ethics class, so please read this with good-faith and in broad strokes. :)### Human: I waver on whether Kant's imperative is really categorical. Aside from the fact that reasonable people can disagree about whether a behavior is universally good, and I'd even question whether we can define universal good, it seems to suffer a problem of regress: while we might say that "lying" would be bad if it were universal, I don't know that we can say that "lying about Santa Claus" is bad if it's universal. Any moral statement can be challenged on its details. For example: is it morally wrong to "lie" (i.e., state a falsehood with the expectation that the listener is deceived) IF my intent -- my "will", as Kant would put it -- is not to deceive? The classic problem of "somebody shows up wanting to murder your friend and asks you where they are, do you tell them the truth?" is solved this way. While I certainly might lie about my friend's location, deception is an expected result, but my intent is to protect my friend. My "will" remains "good". Louis CK gives us a way out of this by specifying acceptable consequences of universality. Lying to save a friend from a murderer results in acceptable consequences; the world would not be made more evil if everybody lied to avoid murder. Lying to get a senior discount at the cafeteria clearly is not acceptable; the world would be made more evil if everybody lied about their age, or even if they just lied to try and score a cafeteria discount.

### Human: CMV: I don't understand why people get upset about illegal immigrants being "illegal".### Assistant: A fearful workforce is a productive workforce Essentially illegals are kept in fear to be productive and cheap. I lived in an agri. Town that was 90% Mexican. Here's how it would go: - labor would get all upset over wages and conditions - labor would begin to organize - the owners would catch wind, call INS - INS would come on ATVs and chase them of and deport some. - rinse repeat every 5 yrs It's better to call bygones, bygones and put them on work Visas. Straight deportation just continues the cycle of peonage/ slavery.### Human: They came here illegally. Either a: reform immigration so you don't have to bend over backwards to get a visa/become a citizen or b: get it done legally.### Assistant: You may want to talk to Reddit about their marijuana usage if we want to stick to the letter of the law. Because it seems much of the US needs a cease and desist on that front. Do you partake? Laws are pretty meaningless. They're just there to punish, not to prevent (unless it's for fear of punishment). There are lots of bad laws. And we seem them when they really don't work. You're not going to get a bunch of weed smokers to see things your way. Why should you expect illegals and those who hire them to as well?### Human: I agree that laws on both fronts need changes, hence option A, but that's no excuse not to follow it. I don't expect anyone to see things my way. I want my opinion out there all the same.### Assistant: Are there viable excuses for breaking marijuana laws? What about 1950s segregation laws? If laws are defective, they will be broken.### Human: No, not really, but those got changed. So like option A stated...

### Human: CMV: Reddit is delusional and wrong, SRS is a self aware satire sub free from toxicity### Assistant: TLDR: >We.... *We* (as in all of reddit) didn't support squat (I think the "You can't stay neutral on a moving train" mentality is one of the most dishonest dogmas out there). And if nothing else, SRS's exsistence proves that Reddit is not a hivemind on any one issue. And that is my problem with SRS: on a site that provides *millions* of comments per day (with virtually every post being upvoted enough to be "noteworthy"), it disingenious to take 100 of those comments and say that "reddit is a X-ist". I can just as easily (and it already exsists: r/bestof being the largest) find 100 comments a day that reflect well on reddit and argue the opposite. showing that 8 (relatively small compared to the defaults) subs you don't like exsist does not invalidate the other 10000 subs, and showing that 5 subs got banned over the year only works against you. I suggest playing around with your subs and adjusting them to get a better outlook on life. I wrote a lot more on these topics (like, a lot: over two posts worth), but I think it's better to practice brevity on the top post and expand on the conversation form there. P.S. I can acknowledge that Reddit has shitty subs and still think SRS is fundamentally flawed: I am sure you didn't mean to make that polarizing ideal in your post, but I think the distinction should be noted, just in case.### Human: >Do you see the issue here, though? Even after picking 5 "disgusting" aspects of reddit, only one was legitimately bad when context was considered. Everything else may have been mildly offensive or slightly unkind, but 80% of your sample size was simply observation and opinion on topics- how is there anything wrong with that? You are correct we are not a singular hivemind. I should have better written that part. What I meant is that reactionaries and reactionary ideas are spreading through reddit and SRS catalogues this. It isn't a secret that organizations such as the fascist white supremacist [StormFront encourage their members to go on reddit and spread these ideas in attempt to increasingly make reddit more sympathetic to their ideology.](https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t705280/) and they even target certain subs such as - surprise - /r/worldnews. >I wrote a lot more on these topics (like, a lot: over two posts worth), but I think it's better to practice brevity on the top post and expand on the conversation form there. Can you explain what you mean here? Genuinely asking, I'm just a little confused what you mean. I'm all for improving the way I write on topics like this. >P.S. I can acknowledge that Reddit has shitty subs and still think SRS is fundamentally flawed: I am sure you didn't mean to make that polarizing ideal in your post, but I think the distinction should be noted, just in case. Definitely. I'm not saying SRS is perfect, but I don't think any sub is perfect either. The view that is to be changed isn't that SRS is perfect, which is a utopian idea, but that SRS actually is NOT as bad as many redditors say it is.### Assistant: > It isn't a secret that organizations such as the fascist white supremacist StormFront encourage their members to go on reddit and spread these ideas in attempt to increasingly make reddit more sympathetic to their ideology. Then those aren't "redditors", those are shill accounts and cannot be counted toward the overall base of reddit's opinion. SRS isn't just hunting those to call out racist shill accounts, they are antagonizing people who like to use sarcasm, who, very likely, are not racist, pedo, etc. > The view that is to be changed isn't that SRS is perfect, which is a utopian idea, but that SRS actually is NOT as bad as many redditors say it is. Then you need to provide some popular examples of how most of reddit outrageously thinks SRS is a horrible place, not just select examples of SRS posts or anecdotes about certain users. These should be popular examples that represent the entirety of reddit, not a few select circlejerk or hate-subs. I think you are wrong in your assumption it's a popular opinion on reddit that SRS is the epitome of evil and trying to destroy free speech. I agree a lot of reddit dislikes SRS, but not to the point they are delusional. Take, for instance, your top example as to something SRS pointed out as being "toxic": > "Me and my buddies were just looking for girls to rape. They found some, but they were around 15 or 16, like way too fucking old. They began raping them but i decided to go around to search some more for something younger. And lo and behold i find this blonde nice fresh 12 year old cutey." This was a joke. The account that posted it revealed it as a joke. SRS does this a lot and I see many things posted and upvoted and antagonized on that sub that is simply taken out of context and obviously sarcasm. *This* is why most people on reddit dislike that sub and its vocal members, not because they are racist and pedophilic, etc. People hate that sub because their members like to ruin fun; sorry if I disagree with the mentality that there are things you can't joke about, but that doesn't make me racist, a pedo, etc. > We supported jailbait. That sub hasn't been here for years. You cannot argue that something that once was represents what currently is. The fact that sub is no longer here only proves that reddit is a good place. > We upvoted Nazi imagery to /r/all just to spite Ellen Pao. We wanted /r/fatpeoplehate to stay on reddit. That was in protest. That's something entirely different than genuine opinion. You cannot honestly make the claim most redditors are neo-Nazis simply because of that happening. You cannot make the claim that most redditors are body-shamers simply because they were arguing for the snowball effect of banning a hate sub, in the context of free speech. Most redditors weren't even subscribed to that sub that were arguing against banning it. > We spread the personal photos of people without their consent. No, a certain few people did. Most of reddit just jerked it and upvoted and moved on. You cannot claim this is evidence of reddit supporting the stealing of personal information. They were upvoting jerk material, not posts explaining ways to steal people's personal information. You cannot confuse the two. Simply being provided with an image of a celebrity's butthole isn't implicating you in the theft of such an image; that's like arguing that redditors who saw that all have "celebrity butthole-privilege" because they didn't downvote and ostricize the people who posted the images. It was stolen, so just because I used this site and saw those images at the time doesn't mean I helped spread those images. You don't have the numbers to show each user uploading to an image hosting site elsewhere, so you cannot make that claim. > And recently, we have started dehumanizing muslims and become openly racist. This is everything SRS stands against. SRS is not the evil here. Reddit is. Reddit over the years I have been as a redditor has become increasingly gross and reactionary, while losing the ability to empathize. Basically, it's a fucking shithole. It has also recently become more censored and more people advocating for the oppression of dissenting opinion and honest discussion. You can see this with the banning of subs that do not host illegal material and the increasing number of "TrueX" subs that attempt to replace the "safe space" havens that were once free to open discussion and did not have ban-happy mods. *This* is the reaction people are having on reddit, not that they're becoming more evil. They're allowing for more radical opinions to be voiced because the places for free opinions seems to be shrinking. That's why these circlejerk subs are getting all tangled up with honest discussions; there are fewer places they can speak freely without zero tolerance banning, so the only places left are where edgy people are circlejerking over racism.### Human: >Then those aren't "redditors", those are shill accounts and cannot be counted toward the overall base of reddit's opinion. SRS isn't just hunting those to call out racist shill accounts, they are antagonizing people who like to use sarcasm, who, very likely, are not racist, pedo, etc. Obviously yes but that isn't the point. When Nazi's start posting apologist posts, racism, and dogwhistling, then upvote themselves to the top, other redditors start to feel like it's an acceptable view because reddit highly upvoted it. If something is heavily downvoted NO ONE will take it seriously because it looks like no one takes it seriously. It's the bandwagon effect. Stormfront's objective on reddit is to make other redditors feel like their views are actually mainstream, not racist, pragmatic, acceptable. In times of crisis such as a terrorist attack, redditors can then quickly do things such as jump to the conclusion that all muslims are bad. Because other redditors have seen the upvoted Stormfront posts and see it as acceptable, they will upvote other redditors' posts with the same content, and likely make replies AGREEING with that post to gain some karma. Basically Stormfront is trying to gain supporters. They have been doing this for a while. >Then you need to provide some popular examples of how most of reddit outrageously thinks SRS is a horrible place, not just select examples of SRS posts or anecdotes about certain users. These should be popular examples that represent the entirety of reddit, not a few select circlejerk or hate-subs. I think you are wrong in your assumption it's a popular opinion on reddit that SRS is the epitome of evil and trying to destroy free speech. Do you actually want me to provide proof? I honestly thought this was pretty well known. Everytime I see an SRS link by bot, people will say things like "wow they got triggered", "fuck SRS", and "got your fee fees hurt?" Everytime a sub was deleted, one of the most highest comments to an admin's announcement is "What about SRS?" /r/Subredditcancer's users literally believe what MRC said, that SRS is an organized Cabal. /r/the_Donald, one of the fastest growing subs on reddit, has posted the same SRS manifestos that /r/Subredditcancer has posted, and they are very very popular. If you genuinely want me to link you to these things, I will, but I'm 100% certain I really don't have to prove something so obvious. >This was a joke. The account that posted it revealed it as a joke. A joke about raping teenagers and kids...? There are lines you don't cross. I guarantee you that you wouldn't be able to make that joke in real life without people telling you the same thing. >That was in protest. That's something entirely different than genuine opinion. You cannot honestly make the claim most redditors are neo-Nazis simply because of that happening I didn't make that claim. What I intended to convey is that while you can disagree with Ellen Pao, she is just like all of us, a human being. It's incredibly rude, obscene, and childish to react in the way reddit has with Ellen Pao. It's basically harassment. She even got death threats. No one in real life would ever settle a disagreement with someone by calling them a Nazi, mocking them as one of the biggest mass murderers in history, and give them death threats. Not atleast with public scorn and a possible police phone call. > You can see this with the banning of subs that do not host illegal material All of the banned subs were banned because they were discovered to be harassing other users, which has been against reddit site rules since day 1.### Assistant: > Do you actually want me to provide proof? I want you to understand how much you are generalizing, simply because you see the extreme reactions so much. It's my opinion you're blinded by the extremes of this site and are misunderstanding them as representative of the general opinion of users. > /r/Subredditcancer's users literally believe what MRC said, that SRS is an organized Cabal I frequent that sub and don't believe what you said. Stop generalizing. > /r/the_Donald, one of the fastest growing subs on reddit, has posted the same SRS manifestos that /r/Subredditcancer has posted, and they are very very popular. The trump sub is as much of a circlejerk as SRS. Some people actually believe that shit, but most of the shocking posts on there are on there for the sake of being shocking. > I'm 100% certain I really don't have to prove something so obvious. You do when it's the basis for your view that I'm here to change. > A joke about raping teenagers and kids...? No, it was a joke about the country making wristbands for girls to wear that say "don't rape me", as if that would do anything to stop someone who wants to rape them. That was the joke, not about raping kids. You failed to see that, because of the lack of context. > **There are lines you don't cross.** I guarantee you that you wouldn't be able to make that joke in real life without people telling you the same thing. This is the mentality that I precisely said is why people dislike SRS. Ignoring the fact you failed to see the context of the joke, the idea that there are things you cannot joke about is legendarily ignorant and very much for censorship just because of offensiveness. Failing to have decent taste does not warrant censorship. > It's incredibly rude, obscene, and childish to react in the way reddit has with Ellen Pao. And thus is the heart of your viewpoint. You feel that offensive material is wrong simply because of the fact it is offensive, not because of the reason it was posted. If you don't honestly believe the people who posted that material actually believe in the things they are associated with, then you're simply condemning people for the existence of offensive material. > It's basically harassment. No, it's protest over what she did. Some people were harassing her, but, again, they do not represent the entire userbase of this website, nor do they represent even a reasonable size of it. > She even got death threats. No one in real life would ever settle a disagreement with someone by calling them a Nazi, mocking them as one of the biggest mass murderers in history, and give them death threats. You continue to generalize everyone who uses this site with the most radical and outspoken. You cannot possibly make the claim that any reasonable majority of people who use this site made death threats to Ellen Pao, and, therefore, cannot use that as an example of how bad the overall opinion of redditors has gotten. And, yes, people call eachother Nazi's in real life all the time, or "fascist". You also cannot use the reasoning that because someone won't say it in real life, but will on reddit, that reddit is evil. Reddit, like mostly all websites with a community are anonymous. That's not exclusive to reddit, and you will find people calling each other Nazis all over the Internet. It's a common insult for people who are for censorship of any kind. > All of the banned subs were banned because they were discovered to be harassing other users Proof? And to make a final point: people were attacking Pao because of the changes she (or whomever, with whatever reddit conspiracy theory you believe) made to the website that seemed to encourage censorship of offensive, not illegal, content. You can't say that because people were claiming the snowball effect with Pao's changes, that the overall opinions of most users on this site have become a "shithole", and are mostly evil. People were upset with the changes to the site, and then the worst of reddit (see: not most of) used that event as a way to push their awful agendas (sexist, racist, etc). This isn't exclusive to that event, nor reddit, nor the Internet; it happens everywhere all the time (see: Glenn Beck, Bill O'reilly, Bill Maher). There's a silent majority of reddit that you aren't seeing. This is a majority of proggresive opinions that simply don't care enough to be vocal against the most extreme evil ones. It's *those* opinions that make up the most of reddit, despite not being surfaced as much as the extremes.### Human: [removed]### Assistant: Sorry bingostud722, your comment has been removed: > Comment Rule 5\. "No low effort comments. Comments that are only jokes, links, or 'written upvotes', for example. Humor, links, and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments." [See the wiki page for more information.](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) If you would like to appeal, please [message the moderators by clicking this link.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Removed+Comment+Rule+5+Post+Appeal&message=bingostud722+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/4rbdc1/cmv_reddit_is_delusional_and_wrong_srs_is_a_self/d518769\))

### Human: Duty to country is not worth dying for because family obligations trump nationalism. CMV### Assistant: Your family is in your country, so doesn't anything that serves your nation also indirectly serve your family? In the case of the modern army, it is not expected that the majority of members actually give their life (as Patton said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."), and the pay and experience they get from the steady work directly benefits their family.### Human: My dad joined the military not for country but for his family. The medical benefits are phenomenal (we tend to get hurt easily because we're clumsy), and the educational benefits are even better. My dad split his Post-9/11 GI Bill between my brother and I, and with that we both essentially get half of our college education paid for. Of course, the price my dad is currently paying is being on his second tour in the Middle East, but he understood that would happen sometime during his enlistment. As for me, I'm currently in the process of enlisting in the Air Force. I'm doing it because I do feel a duty to serve me country, but not in the traditional sense. My dad is serving and I want to emulate him as much as possible. Along with that, I love democracy (I don't like the NSA, fascism, stuff like that. I don't agree with the current war(s) and neither does my dad). I want to be able to protect this country if there is a *legitimate* threat. Secondly, I'm also joining for the benefits. I will be able to retire comfortably at 40 if I stay in. I can get free schooling while I'm in, and the experience is second to none. I also get preference over other job applicants. Also, my children will be able to get cheaper schooling. Really, I guess my small feeling of "duty to country" comes in a far second to the comfort I want to provide for my future family.### Assistant: That would all be solved if we had universal health care and government funded universities. Sucks that anyone has to go through that just to provide for their family.### Human: >That would all be solved if we had universal health care and government funded universities. Sucks that anyone has to go through that just to provide for their family. but then we would have to pay much higher taxes, and pretty much no one is down for that.### Assistant: I'm personally down with higher taxes. If I actually get a comparable return on my taxes. Yes I am willing to pay for it. And this is coming from a student workin my way through school. I only Make about 13k a year and pay rent, gas, etc myself.

### Human: CMV: The current "but her emails" anti-trump meme is counterproductive, and Trump's failure should not be used to validate Hillary Clinton### Assistant: This "DNC collusion" meme is really comforting for us on the left. No, it's not our fault how things turned out. Trump was only elected because of how flawed of a candidate Hillary was. It's nice to believe that, but it's not true. The truth is the left couldn't be bothered to make sure the US didn't make a colossal mistake and instead, to borrow from H L Mencken, failed to underestimate the taste of the american public. Trump is the fault of everyone who didn't vote for Clinton and this whole CMV is an exercise in shifting the blame because you stuck to your ideals and now the entire planet is on the course for bust, which you were okay with before but now seem to be expressing doubts about. Hillary wasn't ideal, but not voting against Trump is like the [Trolley problem,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem) where you didn't pull the lever to save millions of people because it would have ruined your birthday party.### Human: > Hillary wasn't ideal, but not voting against Trump is like the Trolley problem, where you didn't pull the lever to save millions of people because it would have ruined your birthday party. I'm finding issue with your use of this ethics experiment in this particular scenario. Can you expound on that? The thought experiment is intended to weigh the consequence of action versus inaction in an ethically/morally grey area. It seems like you're equivocating voting for Hillary as the 'default', or 'good' outcome in which one switches the train; as though the experiment is about sacrificing 'one for the many', but the entire purpose of the experiment is action versus inaction and not sacrifice.### Assistant: Not voting for Hillary is the default, be it : voting for Trump, voting for Stein or Bernie or Mickey Mouse, or not voting at all. You have to pull the switch to vote for Hillary, which might mean compromising certain beliefs (like trade policy = bad, political experience = bad, etc...) but by pulling the switch, a far worse thing would have been avoided. By complaining about the choices and refusing to act, the actor is as responsible as a person that prefers the worse outcome. That's just how rule by consent and democracy works. By not choosing the least bad choice, they are tacitly **choosing** the worse choice. The complaining is just a meaningless tantrum because they didn't get their way. They need to listen to Reinhold Niebuhr (1892–1971). "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,: Courage to change the things I can,: And wisdom to know the difference." or, if you will allow me to be trite, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke### Human: Sorry, thought I was in CMV and not /r/politics. You can ignore my previous post; any argument closing with 'Trump is evil' and quoting paradigms requiring that we subscribe to the idea that pulling to vote for Hillary was the moral and responsible thing to do is a pretty poor argument and doesn't address my question. Thanks for your time though!### Assistant: Thank you for telling me my premise was bad, not suggesting why it was bad, or offering any follow up questions. Your contribution to the conversation was incredibly valuable as well. Being dismissive and insulting when confronted with an opinion you disagree with is terrific if a perfunctory and passive aggressive polite send off is tacked on at the end. Have a nice day!

### Human: CMV: I believe that there is no moral difference in eating cat, dog or horse than there is in eating other meats.### Assistant: [deleted]### Human: You believe humans don't have an innate sense of ethics about us? What if I argued nearly every established society has produced generally the same ethics, and then said because of that, those general ethics are ones that should be considered innate? That's what I would immediate think. Sure, people are brought up by their surroundings, but it's not just arbitrary, nothing-really-matters, hitler is cool because his society deemed him ethical, bullshit. Come on now! Maltreatment is maltreatment, and people generally have a sense of sanctity (about what doesn't matter for now), would you at least agree to that?### Assistant: > You believe humans don't have an innate sense of ethics about us? HA! Oh Absolutely not. Were it this simple the field of ethics in philosophy would be solved! Don't worry guys, it's all just some mystical innate ethics, no justification required! All the work I've done for five years on moral philosophy can be simply explained by just some innate understanding of what is 'right', You could argue that, several have, it is called cultural relativism, and it is a bad argument. People do not have the same ethics. What you need is what is called a normative moral principle. A fundamental rule of what is right. Many of these exist, Utilitarians have pleasure/happiness/flourishing, Kantians have duty/Categorical imperative, Theologians have God etc. Most people are Utilitarians. Is it bullshit? Why are you so quick to judge? Why are you so quick to ignore the opposing view, maybe all your views on morality are simply false, which to be honest, they likely are. What is it *exactly* that makes something right, and something wrong? Is it that we just 'feel' like it is, because of empathy and guilt? But this is inconsistent! This varies from person to person, so that can't be the fundamental moral principle. What *is* morality, eh? Are you sure it even exists? What a strange notion it is, that something are *right* and some things *wrong*. Why? We are but evolved apes, and apes don't have these wrongs and rights. *It's almost like 'morality' mirrors the general attitudes of a society at a time and that any conceived notion of a grand right or wrong is simply misinterpreting that fact, like you have.* - This is called Moral Error theory and Moral Emotivism.### Human: > What is it exactly that makes something right, and something wrong? Is it that we just 'feel' like it is, because of empathy and guilt? But this is inconsistent! This varies from person to person, so that can't be the fundamental moral principle. You can argue on a more broader moral relativism. Yes there has been cultural difference over the years, but the general principles have always been the same. Show me one set of rules that has allowed theft or murder of a human being*. Very basic principles are generally the same. I put the astericks on human being because that is the problem. The problem was not ethics being different, but rather what does it mean to be a human being, a citizen under an order. All citizens had similar rights in ancient Athens. A true democracy. BUT, to be a citizen you had to be an Athenian male.### Assistant: Those cases don't make sense without a *reason* why murder and theft is wrong. They don't have an ultimate normative moral principle that morality requires.### Human: >They don't have an ultimate normative moral principle that morality requires. Why is that a requirement? I see no reason >Those cases don't make sense without a reason why murder and theft is wrong. Offcourse they do. Think of it this way. Assume Culture A allowed murder and theft for whatever reason. Culture B didn't allow it. After a certain amount of time, say 500 years, it is more probable that Culture A has more members. Hell, if you were in culture B and heard about A, wouldn't you go there? Simply put (I think I didn't elaborate on the example enough), it is an evolutionary advantage. I haven't seen any studies in evolutionary psychology on this regard, but so far, this is how it seems so. Look at every social animal, you don't see any of those rampant in it. Keep in mind, in this regard, when talking about ethics, we speak of the very basic. Tax evasion, murder of self defense... are complicated issues which can require logic. But the basics, so it seems, are like axioms. What are the axioms? That's an entire debate all together, since by this, we moved into meta-ethics.### Assistant: They need a requirment to avoid inconsistancy. If you just go by societal feeling and gut instinct, as you have suggested, we have no reason to work out what is right and wrong in times of ambiguity. There can also be no progress. So you place value on evolutionary advantage? Well then we should rape everybody. We will have much more children and the species will be strengthened. Evolutionary benefit is not a strong argument.### Human: >Well then we should rape everybody. We will have much more children and the species will be strengthened. Evolutionary benefit is not a strong argument. That wouldn't happen. You want to go back to the state of nature? Sure, eventually we'll be right back...because we were there before. Social contract seems to have taken us out of that. People will bind together. Will you accept your mother/sister to be raped? I guess a sane person would say no. What would you do to protect them? Well social contract seems like a good option. That's a good reason why so many people from developing countries immigrate to 1st world. We want safety. Anecdotal evidence, but I know many people who left India because the fathers were afraid for their daughters. >They need a requirment to avoid inconsistancy. If you just go by societal feeling and gut instinct, as you have suggested, we have no reason to work out what is right and wrong in times of ambiguity. There can also be no progress. Again, we have seen no inconsistencies through the basics of ethics throughout history. Most cultures have had basic ethical values, the difference seems to be in how they present it.

### Human: CMV: The terrorists have won.### Assistant: Fear of the outgroups and overreacting policy are nothing new, and frankly a fairly normal outcome in American political discourse. In the 50s it was Communism and the McCarthy hearings. In the 60s it was the civil rights movement and Hoover's insane overreaches to target civil rights leaders. In the 70s and 80s it was the war on drugs and "tough on crime" policies. In the 90s it was school shootings and calls to ban violent video games. So while yes, there are bad policies being proposed and enacted in response to terrorism, that sort of response isn't new or unusual, and society is surprisingly resilient in the long run as far as recognizing some of those overreactions as overreactions.### Human: Surprisingly resilient? The war on drugs has completely ruined the inner cities, especially in the black and Latino communities.### Assistant: I'm not going to defend war on drugs policies, but I will make the point that inner cities were being ruined by crime before the war on drugs began. The war on drugs was a response to really shockingly high crime rates (including violent crime) which were absolutely devastating basically every major city in the United States. The issue of increasing crime was a very real one and these policies were not aimed at phantoms. Today, crime in almost every city is vastly lower than it was in the 80s. And we're working to roll back some of the worst excesses of the war on drugs. It's halting, but I think there is some progress there.### Human: So the solution to high crime rates is... Redefine more things as crimes?### Assistant: The war on drugs mostly involved vastly increasing the sentences imposed on things that were already crimes.### Human: And adding mandatory minimum sentencing. Giving the DEA the power to schedule and drug.

### Human: CMV: Hamas is nothing short of a terrorist organization and Israel has every right to retaliate.### Assistant: >Hamas declining/ignoring these opportunities of peace have left Israel with no options besides retaliation. With the main goal of Hamas being to destroy Israel; Israel has the right to neutralize Hamas to ensure the safety of Israeli citizens. This is incorrect. Hamas has named terms for a 10-year ceasefire, and they are not unreasonable: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html >Israel should not be held accountable for civilian casualties in Gaza when Hamas is actively trying to increase civilian casualties by firing missiles out of civilian buildings. I will continue to hold both Hamas and Israel responsible for these deaths. If Israel didn't bomb that beach, those 4 boys wouldn't have died. >I believe the disregard for civilian casualties by Hamas and continual bombing of Israel is enough justification to invade Gaza and prevent further bombings. Those bombings killed 2 people. That's right, 2. Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians in response, many of them children. In addition to these points, you should remember that Gaza is essentially under siege, with Israel severely restricting what goes in and out. This has been going on for years. If you lived in Gaza, what would you do?### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: Yeah they should just accept their oppression by Israel like a good little population. /s/ What they are doing is wrong by firing missiles into Israel, but should the French not have tried a revolution either? The Americans?### Human: And the Algerians and the Indonesians etc. etc. Both massively overpowered.### Assistant: I read a good article about this the other day. Hamas casts itself as Algerians, and compare themselves to that struggle. The problem is that the Israelis aren't Frenchmen in a desert far from home running a foreign colony. Israel is their home and they have nowhere to go. So instead of simply returning home, you get war.### Human: I fully agree. That's exactly what makes this such an intense life-or-death situation. Do you happen to have a link to the article?### Assistant: [deleted]

### Human: CMV: Stereotypes are among the most accurate social hypotheses, and can be can be efficient shortcuts and sense-making tools.### Assistant: You've put an awful lot of qualifiers in your discussion, to the extent that to change your view it seems like you'd need to be convinced that stereotypes are always wrong, which isn't the case. That said, many stereotypes ARE wrong, mostly due to the combination of unequal exposure (sampling bias) and picking out the elements that support your theory and discounting those that disprove it (confirmation bias). Take a stereotypical housebound grandmother in northern Minnesota 20 years ago. She's never seen a black person in person. Essentially the only exposure she has to African Americans is from crime dramas and sensationalist news stories. She watched the OJ trial. She sees the live reports from the inner cities. For every Colin Powell, there is a Mike Tyson (the 90's version, not today's cuddlier version). She's going to have a very skewed stereotype of blacks. Similar with gays, Jews, Japanese, southerners, etc. In those cases, the stereotypes are dangerous and outright wrong.### Human: Show me that stereotypes are wrong *more often than not,* that they more likely to be wrong than right, or even that it's a 50/50 proposition, and I'll change my view. I find it interesting that you use a "stereotypical housebound grandmother" to argue against stereotypes. Apparently there are some stereotypes you trust.### Assistant: The "stereotypical grandmother" was intended to be ironic. In any case, I have no idea how one would quantify how many stereotypes there are, and then segment them between "right ones" and "wrong ones", so I don't think I'll be able to change your view that way. Let me flip it another way, though. I don't think that there are any stereotypes that are 100 right. So, whenever you stereotype, there's a chance you'll be wrong, and make an incorrect assessment which you wouldn't have made if you started with a clean slate. Yeah, there are circumstances where you need to stereotype - you're drowning and have to instantly choose between throwing a rope to a big guy or a wiry woman. Now, he might have ALS and she might be an Olympic swimmer, but the stereotype will save your life the vast majority of the time. But in a situation where an instant decision isn't needed, why shouldn't you avoid the risk of a mistake from a stereotypical assessment?### Human: > But in a situation where an instant decision isn't needed, why shouldn't you avoid the risk of a mistake from a stereotypical assessment? No reason at all, that wasn't my point. Stereotypes are a shortcut when better information is unavailable. What is more, they are part of our psyche whether we like it or not. So become aware of them, and when ever possible test them and be ready to abandon them. But don't ignore them. If you have a bad feeling about someone, pay attention to that feeling.### Assistant: Ok, I don't think that "Sometimes, with the lack of better info, stereotypes are better than random guesses" is a view that can be argued against. Good luck with other commenters.### Human: It can't be argued against because it's [unfalsifiable](http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/179-unfalsifiability). The statement that stereotypes can *sometimes* be useful *in a pinch* isn't one that can be quantified either way, because it's essentially a subjective opinion.### Assistant: My point is that *more often than not* stereotypes are useful when better information isn't available, and that we encounter those situations *every day.* And there has been research on the subject.### Human: I read the article you linked, and you know what? It did more to reaffirm my own view than it did to confirm yours, so your statement of 'there has been research on the subject' holds no merit to me. Your statement is far too damn vague to even take seriously. You're basically saying that, with no other info available, it's better to judge someone superficially based on rumour and hearsay than it is to actually *talk* to them, which is ridiculous. What this means is that, if I meet a black person that in not familiar with, it's okay to assume he'd like to go to KFC, but wouldn't pay because he's unemployed and on welfare which he needs to pay child support for his abandoned child. This view of yours justifies assuming all Asians are amazing at maths, but terrible at driving. This view of yours justifies assuming that all women know how to cook, clean, and whine about their husbands. Can you not see the wrong in this?### Assistant: > You're basically saying that, with no other info available, it's better to judge someone superficially based on rumour and hearsay than it is to actually talk to them, which is ridiculous. That's absolutely not what I'm saying. But if you are in a party full of people and you choose to talk with one of them, how do you make that choice? I submit that you do so based on stereotypes -- and that's okay, as long as you realize what you are doing, and do it consciously, maybe sometimes picking someone different precisely so you can test your assumptions.### Human: No, you don't choose based on stereotypes. How are stereotypes even relevant to a social situation? What stereotypes even exist that describe how certain demographics respond to social situations and people approaching them? I don't recall the stereotype that says "avoid Asians because they hate parties", or the inverse of that. Are you talking about body language and clothing instead? Because that's not stereotyping, that's social/cultural theory and semiotics.### Assistant: If you can persuade me that I am misusing the word "stereotype," I might change my view. It seems to me that you are misusing it, though, to describe only insults directed at large groups of people, and not more rational educated guesses such as the significance of body language or clothing.### Human: Stereotypes have nothing to do with individual things like clothing or body language. They only pertain to large groups of people in order to oversimplify the way they act *as a group*. It's in the damn definition of the word. Stereotypes are never based on individual interactions, they're based on misheard history, rumours and lies. They're built up out of war, bad political relations and stories. [A quick google search before making this post could have saved you a lot of trouble](http://i.imgur.com/dQZLImb.png).### Assistant: You have never heard that people who wear glasses are nerdy? That's a clothing based stereotype. There are lots of them. Sagging pants, white tank tops, girls that were boots with skirts, etc. etc.### Human: Stereotypes exist to put people into groups. I'm not arguing that you can't judge a single person based on their clothing, I'm arguing that you can't *stereotype* a single person. You stereotype groups. Seeing a guy wearing glasses and thinking he's a nerd is classifying him as part of the 'nerd' stereotype. Anyway, my *main* point is that judging a person based on the way they look isn't stereotyping. Grouping people together and saying they're all the same is stereotyping. You can ascribe a person to a stereotype, sure, but that in itself isn't the act of stereotyping, it's the act of being a judgmental ass. It's only when you homogenise groups based on rare or even nonexistent traits that it becomes a stereotype.### Assistant: You're misunderstanding. The group is "people who wear glasses" the stereotype is "are nerdy". What we're doing here is grouping all people who wear glasses and saying they have an unrelated trait, i.e. nerdiness. That's stereotyping. The OP is saying that when looking at a group of people to chat with you might apply the stereotype about people who wear glasses being nerds and have that influence your decision.### Human: And he's saying it's useful, and I'm saying it's not.### Assistant: Well actually you're saying, > Stereotypes have nothing to do with individual things like clothing or body language. That's the part we've been discussing in this thread.### Human: Well, they're not. My point *there* was that the act of stereotyping is not done on an individual basis e.g you don't see a black guy playing chess and assume all black guys do it. One would certainly *apply* stereotypes individually, e.g "hey that guy's black, let's ask him for drugs because all black guys have drugs". But this grew out from the original point because of a tangent where we argued over the meaning of 'stereotype'.### Assistant: Again, they are, e.g. "people who wear glasses are nerdy." Though the rest of your comment looks like a response to an argument that no one is making.

### Human: CMV: Indian families in America telling their children that they can only marry another Indian (many times from the same specific geographic location in India), is blatant racism masquerading as being "traditional".### Assistant: Whlie I might agree with the premise as stated... I wonder how often it's really framed that way. Arranged marriages really *are* traditional, and the arrangements are frequently based on family connections and other considerations that might have the *effect* of being "you can only marry your kind", while having an actual *mechanism* of needing to have a similar traditional cultural background such that it even allows for the *concept* of an arranged marriage.### Human: Thanks for your comment. I agree - while the wording of the outcome can sometimes be deceiving, I still think that at its core it is racism. In my opinion, preferring your child marry someone similar is ok...forcing them to is not.### Assistant: My question is: do the Indians in question actually care about whether their child is marrying someone just like them, or do they care about having adequate cultural referents to be able to negotiate an arrangement of marriage with the *parents* of whoever their child marries? Because this would likely be... challenging... with non-Indians. If that's the only way they think it's right for people to marry, then it really is just a cultural preference. Of course, it's entirely possible that it's really racist, and that many Indians believe that other races are inferior and thus not suitable mates for their children. I really don't know how common that belief might be. I will say that, in ordinary life, I haven't *observed* Indians being particularly more racist than any other people, which is why I'm wondering if it's a matter of cultural practices and belief systems about how mates should be chosen than are the dominant factor here.### Human: It's a very interesting point, because I agree that the main focus here is the intent behind it. Personally, I have witnessed multiple times where an Indian was not allowed to date another Indian solely because their family was not from the same geographic location in India as them (before the parents knew anything about the family's well-being). This to me is an instant decision solely based on racism. While many Indians are not seen to be racist in ordinary life, this practice all in itself far outdates slavery and other racist customs that were abolished long ago.### Assistant: >Personally, I have witnessed multiple times where an Indian was not allowed to date another Indian solely because their family was not from the same geographic location in India as them (before the parents knew anything about the family's well-being). This to me is an instant decision solely based on racism. So, it looks like this, but I don't think that's really what's going on. Regions in India have starkly different cultures and traditions, it's only to the Western eye that the country appears at all homogeneous. I'd go so far as to say that India is in many ways like a Europe unto itself, with adjacent regions having all the same degree of differences that adjacent nation-states in the EU do. Going with that, consider parents in Germany who want their children to marry other Germans as opposed to the French. It doesn't have to do with race necessarily, as many would agree the French and Germans are both the same race anyway. In their minds, they'd be thinking of honoring German traditions and values (whatever those are). It may indeed be false that these values are exclusively German, or that all Germans necessarily hold them. I'm not defending the heuristic, just pointing out that it's not really racist per se. It's just a sloppy heuristic, just like racism, but it's kind of an oversimplification to call it that. Racism and the belief in "races" at all is a Western invention. Indians have similar concepts in the form of the caste system and a few other beliefs revolving around family and inheritance, but they are decidedly different in origin and character from the Western social construct of racism despite being in some ways analogous. It has little or nothing to do with a theory of evolutionary descent, genetic differences, phrenology (skull measuring) or any of the crap psuedoscience that is behind racism. It's also typically very religious with Indian families. Parents often believe that their son in law, for instance, is responsible for saying daily prayers and performing rituals that will guarantee their own positive spiritual journey after life. So it's a matter, quite literally, of securing the fates of their immortal souls. These rituals/prayers are usually very specific to small regions and sub-communities within those regions. India is *incredibly* diverse despite the 1-dimensional picture of it we get in the West, it's hard to overstate just how multiculture it actually is within those borders. Sure, someone from another region could go through the motions, say the words, and "perform" the rituals, but is that the same as someone who was raised from birth to fully feel the significance of those rituals? Could an atheist really help her father's immortal soul simply by moving his lips in the correct order at the correct times of day? In that light, it's a lot more reasonable than a simple prejudice/fear of the Other, however bullshit you believe their religions to be. Full disclosure: I'm an American white guy who nearly married an Indian girl...then her parents found out, and made her choose between them and me. She chose them, and I can't blame her, because aside from this one thing her family is incredibly loving and supportive, more than most Western families I've seen. I spent a long, long time coming to grips with this and trying to understand exactly why it was happening. It was tempting at first to label it as racism, but that's kind of sloppily applying a largely European/Western framework (race and racism) to a culture that's frankly in a different universe altogether. The reality is much more complex and multi-faceted. I'm still not happy with the outcome, not at all, but my understanding of it has broadened considerably and I can see the parents' perspective as not being wholly unreasonable even if I disagree with it.### Human: Indian guy here! This guy hit the nail right on the head. There are more than a billion people in India, with many different cultures, religions, casts, and languages. By specifying to your kids you want them to marry someone from the same region, this will ensure they have the same upbringing in the same culture, cast, language, religion etc... Indians are religious folks, so religion usually comes first priority, then it's cast which fits directly in language and culture. I guess the closest thing I can relate it to is American parents asking their children to marry a Christian, a Mormon, a Catholic, or a Jew. Major difference is race doesn't play a card in western religion. In terms of language, I'm northern Indian, I can't just walk up to a southern Indian and have a conversation with them because we don't speak the same language! While it's requested we marry the same culture, religion etc.. It is not required. My buddy married someone from outside of our culture and different religion, but still from India. My cousin is marrying outside of our culture and religion but to a southern Indian. I'm going outside of my cast, but staying in the same religion. My sister went outside of our cast, but same religion. Just few examples.

### Human: CMV: Reddit has become a much larger version of /r/circlejerk and content quality is on the decline.### Assistant: Stop reading large subreddits and stop looking at /r/all. Reddit is really great if you read small subreddits about the things you are interested in. As reddit has become more popular, it has become more popular to trolls, but they will stay in the large forums where there are more people to take the bait.### Human: It's not the trolls though, the site has been flooded with people who don't care about reddiquette, downvote things they disagree with. The effect is that shitty comments that the majority agree with rise to the top, and everyone is playing to the gallery rather than trying to explore a topic in earnest. Reddit has had its Eternal September moment and its population is now closer to that of larger society, that's not a problem caused by a minority of disruptive users but with the population of the Internet itself.### Assistant: Which is exactly why you should follow my advice. Stay in smaller subreddits where this has not happened. The large subreddits are a waste of your time unless you are here to pick fights and post memes.### Human: But that's not a change of the view I specified, that's a reinforcement. You're basically telling me, and other commenters here, to hold more tightly to the isolationist lack of quality, polite content view.### Assistant: No your posted view says that quality content is on the decline. Quite the opposite, there is a wealth of knowledge on almost every topic. You're just looking for it in the wrong place.

### Human: CMV: Punching anyone who holds extremist views is wrong. Violence is never a justified method to get a point across.### Assistant: I think your specific point about "violence is [n]ever a justified method to get a point across" is what needs to be argued. In order to argue it, I will need some clarification on your part. How do you propose to deal with an imminent existential threat to your way of life?### Human: I think describing one white nationalist peacefully giving an interview on a public sidewalk as "an imminent existential threat to your way of life" is a *bit* much. Just a tad.### Assistant: Almost no existential threats predicated on ideology (rather than acts of nature) begin as overt acts of violence. It almost always begins with perfectly legal free-association and assembly. I believe that in certain cases we must be dogmatic. When it comes to hate speech, or speech that is designed to incite violence directly or indirectly, or speech that is meant to otherwise subvert the safety and security of the public space, should be prohibited. It is worth mentioning that in that the last cases these forms of speech are already not protected by the first amendment in the US. I understand that the white nationalist in question is not going to kill anyone imminently. However, in the case of racial nationalism, there is strong precedent for things to become violent very quickly.### Human: >When it comes to hate speech, or speech that is designed to incite violence directly or indirectly, or speech that is meant to otherwise subvert the safety and security of the public space, should be prohibited. Do you apply those rules to both the left and the right? Do you believe that both classic Southern bigots and liberal SJWs should both be prohibited from expressing their racist viewpoints in public?### Assistant: Sure. Though, as with the previously mentioned examples of prohibited speech, I think that there should be a well defined set of legally argued criteria to meet the prohibition. It is also probably worth noting that racism is not the same as racial bigotry. The definitions have migrated apart over time. Our academics and social activists have come to re-purpose the word 'racism' to mean something very specific: racial bigotry that is enabled or enforced by socioeconomic or political power structures. So, in the case of SJWs saying some downright virulent shit about white men - that would surely constitute a kind of hate speech, it would not necessarily constitute racism...while also definitely qualifying as racial bigotry. It can seem like a distinction without a difference, but it is a useful tool in prioritizing which kinds of hate speech gets prioritized over others.

### Human: CMV: Whoever is responsible for letting go Victoria from reddit (u/chooter) should be fired.### Assistant: It's hard to say without knowing the reason they were let go in the first place. If they were fired for something petty or political, you may be right. If it was something like gross negligence, maybe not.### Human: All of the character statements and testimony we've gotten makes me feel more and more like it was something petty, or political, or just a change in direction for the site, which I don't agree with, and it doesn't look like the majority of users do either.### Assistant: All we've seen of Victoria is what she's let us see of her, be it through third party accounts, or by her direct contact with the community. Character statements and testimony, especially on the internet, should be taken with a huge mound of salt. I doubt anyone in the Reddit HQ was so petty and shortsighted to have fired /u/chooter on the spot on a whim, especially considering the impressive amount of responsibility she held in her position. I know reddit likes to bash Pao and the admins, but I have a hard time believing anyone on the staff would be so clueless about this. Really, think about it. All the people you work with, you know the general gyst of what they do in their job, and what their job duties entail. You might not know all the specifics, but you know Earl is an accountant, you know Margaret is in data entry, etc., etc. And you would know a little more intimately if you were in charge of those people, aka in a position from which you can fire them. I really, REALLY doubt that the person who was in charge of Victoria didn't know that she met up with celebrities on a regular basis, and acted as a liaison between the site and the celebrity. Maybe if they were extremely out of touch, they wouldn't know to what extent her importance to the company had, but the people in charge sure would. No one, and I mean no one, would look at Victoria's duties and responsibilities and decide, on a whim, that she would need to be let go, unless they were incredibly stupid and self destructive. And I know how much you all like to basically attribute those qualities to the admins, namely Pao, but I find that hard to be the case. I regrettably have to believe, with the evidence that we have right now, that Victoria performed some kind of gross violation of company policy that resulted in her needing to be immediately terminated, consequences be damned. I do not think that the people who fired her did not understand the gravity of such a decision, and I believe that the violation had to have outweighed, or at least been comparable to the consequences that firing her would bring. Now just for shits and giggles, I'll talk about the Jesse James theory. He couldn't have taken legal action against Reddit for being offended by the internet, period. I don't think he has the kind of clout to demand someone's job, especially for something so asinine and for something that was clearly not her fault. However, one thing that I do find a little bit curious is how quiet the admins have been throughout this whole ordeal, not even making a farewell post for Victoria, to my knowledge. As far as I can theorize, I'd assume that they're stuck in negotiations with the mods on making the subs public again, or they just decided to go into the company bunker to wait for all this to blow over. Either way, I doubt someone fired her without a legitimate reason to do so, and really, I'm going to feel tat way until someone shows me hard, factual evidence otherwise, and not just character statements and testimonials. Being a nice person does not prevent you from stealing a bunch of company funds or somesuch. Anywhom, I've said my piece### Human: You are the first person who I agree with entirely regarding this whole topic.### Assistant: I'm flattered, thank you

### Human: CMV: The statement "If you didn't vote, you have no right to complain" is wildly invalid.### Assistant: Of course you have a right to complain. But if you can't take the time to vote, **I** don't have to take your complaints seriously, as you have shown that you're just *all talk*.### Human: Doesn't this apply only to certain issues that parties disagree on? I guess in countries like my own, the statement is more valid as there are more than two legit parties, but say in the United states. If someone is complaining about healthcare or something that would be better if the other guy was in charge, the "you didn't vote" retort might be legitimate. But if someone is complaining about the NSA, or something that would be even worse if the other guy was in charge, then voting would have made no difference.### Assistant: Then vote in the primaries. Primaries get 7-12% turnout and with more and more safe districts are increasingly how you make changes. The sitting House Majority leader was unseated by just a few thousand votes. If both the Republican and Democrat support the NSA, I'm willing to bet one of the primary challengers doesn't. Even if you don't unseat him, giving the congressmen a primary challenger may make him re-evaluate his position on the NSA. And also, politics is more than any one issue. It is impossible for any politician to always have the positions you agree with unless you run yourself. So even if you disagree about the NSA, if you agree with 90% of his other positions then you can's say "voting makes no difference" because you are voting in people, not issues.### Human: Politics is absolutely more than one issue, which is one of many reasons I really believe in a more direct form of democracy.### Assistant: Look at California. Direct Democracy doesn't work. If you vote on individual issues you get a patchwork of incoherent policies because everyone will always side with what they want, never wanting to deal witht he consequences of it. They voted to prevent raising taxes. Then, the government started making cuts because they had less money, so the people voted to stop them from cutting spending. They started running a deficit, so they passed a bill saying they can't run a deficit. Taken in isolation, each of those decisions can be logical. No one wants higher taxes, no one wants cuts to education and no one wants deficits. But the reality because that California became increasingly more difficult to govern and has suffered tremendously because of all the ballot propositions. Direct Democracy has been tried and doesn't work.### Human: I don't really believe in Direct Democracy as a thing you can just stick into our existing system. You want to put in place real, political education, and then 20-40 years later introduce direct democracy. And use smart, crowdsourcing technology to implement bigger picture stuff instead of just having people vote on individual chunks. I could be totally wrong here. My emphasis goes on the political education part. More funding to education in general. Maybe it'll work out great, and worst case scenario we've raised a bunch of geniuses to fix our mess for us.### Assistant: But.. that assumes everyone has to have knowledge about everything the government is doing. We have job specialization for a reason, there is just too much information you need to know and too much time you would need to continue to dedicate to stay informed. We have lives, we have our own worries, we can't expect every one to dedicate hours a day to reading bill proposals when congressmen have multiple full times staffers that attempt to do that job. So you will get an uninformed answer no matter how hard you try. Either bills need to be so watered down they are simple to read (and therefore terrible laws because of all the unintended consequences simple language causes) or so complicated that people will just read the title or at best a tl;dr before voting.### Human: And that's where parties can come in, but in this dream amazing system that will never happen that I am imagining, choosing someone to represent your views can be optional. If you are politically involved, you can vote on each individual issue, with resources like experts opinions to help you make your choice. Or you can have a representative do this for you, and they can be held accountable. Elections get replaced by personal representative choices that can be done any time. If someone makes a promise and gets a bunch of people to choose them, then they break their promise, people immediately can withdraw support from them. So you can surf through this theoretical website and just do enough research to find a candidate that is trustworthy and shares your most important views. From a candidates page you could be directly linked to the opinions of experts, from general political people to neuroscientists. This dumb vision of mine would be very complicated to ever implement, and I'm sure it has a ton of flaws in it. But I'm just one guy. Take a whole bunch of people a whole bunch smarter than me and put them on the problem of creating a working direct democracy and I do think they'd come up with something better than what we have today.

### Human: CMV: University of Washington's recent "Ideal Cheerleader" is not offensive and is actually beneficial### Assistant: I'd like to mention your counterpoints. I don't think (C1) actually addressed their argument. You seem to assume they were saying that their either ought to be different posters for different ethnicities, or there ought to be a non-white person depicted on the poster. Neither of these are how I would fairly characterise what they were saying or implying. Nowhere do they ask for more posters or for a different person on the poster, and so I think the safest, most charitable assumption we can make here is that they have a problem with a poster depicting an ideal cheerleader altogether. That's a view you didn't address with regards to (C1). On (C2), I also think you've mischaraterised something. Specifically: > By letting prospective candidates know that they're seeking a "physically fit, athletic physique," UW is putting it out there that they're looking primarily for fitness. 'Physique' does not mean fitness. If they meant fitness, they would have said 'must be able to [perform x activity]'. 'Physique' is an entirely image-focused term. It isn't about fitness but about the *image* of idealised fitness. Now, on to your arguments (to separate them from the counterarguments, I'll call these A1 and A2). On A1, this isn't really engaging with the opposition to the poster. I don't think anyone is saying "have these standards but keep them secret", they're criticising the standards themselves. The problem isn't that people should or shouldn't know what the standards are, the problem is that the standards themselves are problematic. On A2, firstly I think you've misunderstood the 'too much makeup' rule, that's almost certainly just a rewording of 'don't look cakey' rather than some attempt at fairness. But that aside, your actual argument doesn't really follow. You say that having these standards makes the tryouts fairer for *everyone*. That's exactly what they don't do: they make the tryouts privilege an outmoded, white, hegemonic conception of female beauty. Anyone who doesn't fit that is told not to try out. That isn't "fairer for everyone", it's less fair for the majority of people. Making every candidate look similar would be something like their instance they wear black, not the not-so-subtle hints that they be a white person who conforms to particular middle class beauty standards.### Human: Not op but I'd like to address some things. These woman are going to be representing the school; so it's fair to want them to look good just like you want your football jerseys to look good and your football players to be good. Just like any business you want the things representing that business to evoke positive emotions. It is objectively, biologically beneficial for obesity to be unattractive. Obesity is blatantly bad for you. Anorexia is also bad and I personally find unhealthily skinny women unattractive. However, that is irrelevant; the majority of men find skinny, superficial woman attractive so it is economically smart for the school. In addition, physique and fitness are very closely related.### Assistant: I think the issue people are having here is not with the reality that it may be better for the school to be represented by skinny, pretty white girls, but rather that maybe the school should be putting other priorities (like inclusion, body positivity, etc) ahead of their incentives or desires to have a certain kind of attractive cheerleader.### Human: Should the football team also let the unathletic fat kid play? The world isn't about inclusion. If you want something, you have to work for it.### Assistant: But you can't "work at" having a different ethnicity, or wildly different body type, and there are a lot of things that are so difficult to overcome as to be virtually impossible in most cases.

### Human: CMV: If you intentionally walk into people instead of getting out of their way, you aren't fighting the patriarchy. You're being an asshole.### Assistant: On point 4, women who do this feel that they disproportionately are expected to/actually make room for men. They believe that at certain point, it's no longer an issue of personal manners and one of societal norms. I would also point out that not moving involves two people, and it seems like you're only focusing on one person choosing not to move out of the way, instead of both parties.### Human: I DO believe that both parties are at fault. But I'm focusing on one party because this one party is saying that they are justified in running into people. As for your first point... as a man, it's hard to really address this point, since obviously I'm not held to those standards. But it seems to me that if one's trying to fight those norms, it makes more sense to be diplomatic about it, instead of purposefully running into someone and blaming THEM for it. Isn't that, dare I say it, victim blaming?### Assistant: Is she actually, intentionally crashing into men, or is she just refusing to move out of the way for them any more than they're moving for her?### Human: As I recall, she described herself as plowing straight through a large group of men. Personally, I'd say that in a situation like that (one person versus a large group), the one person should yield to the group. If it's one person versus one person, then things are a bit different... but isn't it just polite to avoid crashing into people if one can help it?### Assistant: A large group should switch to single file if there are pedestrians walking in the opposing direction—even if it's 1 vs. 7—everyone staying to the right. That people saunter obliviously down the center or shoulder to shoulder down a busy walkway is quite selfish.### Human: Oh, I agree. And in a perfect world, we WOULD be that considerate for everyone around us. I guess I just tend to think about this in terms of the rules of the road. If you see another driver making an illegal turn that puts you on a collision course, do you continue and expect them to get out of the way? Or do you err on the side of caution and let them go? Point being, other people being jerks doesn't mean we should try to one-up them in jerkiness.### Assistant: So if people are being jerks, other people should submissively take it and adjust their behavior to cater to the jerks? And if in the course of our lives, some women feel and mutually agree that they feel like it's always just men being jerks in this way and always women being expected to submit and cater to the jerks, they should still continue to cater their behavior to the jerks or else they're jerks too?### Human: Well, if they start to act like jerks only based on assumptions about other people, (especially if these assumptions are gender-based) then why should they be excused for their behavior? Two examples: If a man walking sees a group of women in front of him and assumes they'll move out of the way because they're women, and barges through them without giving them a chance to move, he's a jerk. If a woman walking sees a group of men in front of her and assumes they won't move because they're men, and then barges through them without giving them a chance to move, then she's a jerk.### Assistant: Your first paragraph assumes no instance of reported sexism is ever true. Your third paragraph completely ignores the fact that the men didn't move either and absolves the men of any responsibility for willingly plowing into the woman while blaming the woman entirely for it.### Human: Re-read my previous comment please. Note how the wording for both examples is essentially identical. I made sure that it was so that there could be no chance of misinterpretation. How did I absolve anyone for willingly plowing through a group of people? In both situations my attempt was to show that the person who barges through a group of bystanders is a jerk, and both happen to be motivated by sexist preconceptions.

### Human: CMV: Demanding movies to have black characters just for diversity is racist### Assistant: Maybe people think black actors aren't getting a fair chance at being in those movies### Human: i think the NFL has it right in this regard actually. Make it mandatory to interview a black candidate is fine but mandating a black person to be in a movie is a bit much imo### Assistant: I'm not advocating for that### Human: isn't that what the CMV is about?### Assistant: Kind of, maybe. My take of the CMV is "people are racist for demanding more black actors for the sake of having more black actors in movies"

### Human: CMV: A US/NATO ground intervention against ISIS would only make things worse.### Assistant: ISIL is in terms of military power smaller and weaker then Iraq was in 2003. It therefore, seems likely that military intervention would have at most similar casualty numbers to Iraq. You are most certainly correct that this number would probably be over a hundred thousand. However, the war has already caused significantly more then that number with no sign of slowing down. It seems reasonable then that by stopping a war that currently shows no signs of stopping that the casualty numbers would be reduced. You are correct that the humanitarian costs of intervention would be huge. However, the humanitarian costs of not intervening are almost certainly going to be much higher.### Human: Would a US/NATO ground intervention stop the war? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's been the same story in the Middle East for the past 25 or more years. We (the US) started intervening for spurious reasons, equipping groups that will help us fight. Then our involvement creates resentment against the US, and either the rebel groups make us a target or terrorists get a hold of the weapons we send over there. IMO, we need to bite the bullet and get out of there, letting Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and other countries use their own military to solve the conflicts in their own region.### Assistant: > We (the US) started intervening for spurious reasons, equipping groups that will help us fight. Then our involvement creates resentment against the US I'm really not trying to be "that guy", but I would caution against being too general in this sense. Yes - the US has manipulated, in one way or another, most of the governments of the region. However, in terms of why, how, or to what degree, it is pretty scattershot. Additionally, the causes of resentment are similarly scattershot. What we know about Afghanistan isn't applicable to Syria, which in turn isn't applicable to Egypt, Iraq, etc.### Human: Can you explain in greater detail how those situations are not comparable?### Assistant: Well, the first example that comes to mind is that Afghanistan and Syria are very different countries in terms of their economy, religiosity, general level of education, the nature of their government, and racial makeup. Therefore even if they had theoretically the same historical involvement with the US (say, hypothetically, we trained and armed Syrians to repel the invading USSR like we did Afghanistan), they would probably not have reacted the same. Syria was a far more modern nation in the 1980s than Afghanistan was in basically every way and remains much more modern today. Now add to that, the fact that our involvement with Syria has been completely different than with Afghanistan. Is it really any surprise that Syrians feel differently about the US than Afghanis do?### Human: That's a good point. Generalization is typically bad in these questions and a little racist if you assume all countries in a region are the same. So I guess I'm a little more open to the idea, but not much. I'd like more proof that US intervention wouldn't just perpetuate the cycle before I agree that we should do it.### Assistant: Military commanders on the scholarly side of war fighting have compiled s few arguments specific to Afghanistan's local topography and how cells or non-government groups use that to their advantage against better equipped foreign forces. The arguments can basically be summed up as the siege, or further compared to the sorts of tactics historically used to defend Switzerland. By making the casualty count so high, war will become politically and socially untenable for the surge forces as long as casualty counts exceed progress toward desired objectives. What ends up happening, is that alternatives are sought (e.g. The atomic weapon as an alternative to the untenable land invasion of imperial Japan at he end of the Second World War, to the development and expansion of covert drone operations, which from a purely military perspective, reduce casualties for a country considering ground invasion.### Human: You know, I haven't actually heard anyone give a good, informed opinion on the military reasoning behind it. I'm a little ignorant to military strategy and tactics, so it's probably worth looking into a little more. Is there a site or thread where I could read current military thinking?### Assistant: There was a book by the French General who developed counterinsurgency theory that explained this. I don't remember it specifically because I read from it a really long time ago however I can look for it and post or PM a link once I source it.

### Human: CMV: Giving teachers tenure is a stupid idea, and it promotes laziness and a poor education system### Assistant: I'm going to point out a few arguments here, taken from [**this website**](http://teachertenure.procon.org/): 1. **Tenure allows teachers to advocate on behalf of students and disagree openly with school and district administrators.** Award-winning history teacher Kerry Sylvia said that without tenure, she would be afraid of being fired because of her public opposition to initiatives by administrators. 2. **Contrary to public perception, tenure does not guarantee a teacher a job for life.** Each state's tenure laws establish strict requirements and processes for removing a tenured teacher. Tenure also guarantees teachers a termination hearing before the board of education or an impartial hearing panel. 3. **Tenure protects teachers from being prematurely fired after a student makes a false accusation or a parent threatens expensive legal action against the district.** After an accusation, districts might find it expedient to quickly remove a teacher instead of investigating the matter and incurring potentially expensive legal costs. The thorough removal process mandated by tenure rules ensures that teachers are not removed without a fair hearing. 4. **Tenure is a good system that has become a scapegoat for problems facing education.** Eliminating tenure will not reduce class sizes or make schools cleaner and safer. If tenure is abolished, problems of underfunding, overcrowding, and lack of control over students’ home lives will persist. 5. **Tenure prohibits school districts from firing experienced teachers to hire less experienced and less expensive teachers.** The threat of firing has increased in recent years as many school districts face budget cuts. Marcia Rothman, a teacher for 14 years, said at a Dec. 16, 2010 protest in New York, "They don’t want old experienced teachers who are too expensive. It’s a concerted effort to harass older teachers, so they can hire two young teachers." Now, in full disclosure, I'm married to a teacher. Her and I have had a lot of arguments about this (and about the strength of the Teacher's Unions). I typically am more in line with your line of thinking. But I have to say, the amount of stuff that the typical school district tries to get away with would end up with a class-action lawsuit in most large private companies.### Human: ∆ Points 3 and 5 were things that I hadn't really considered. You have certainly changed my view on this issue in that regard. However, it seems like many of these arguments could apply to other jobs as well. Should doctors get tenure at their hospitals to prevent them from a) firing experienced doctors to hire cheaper inexperienced doctors, b) allow them to challenge policies of hospital administrators, and c) ensure that the hospital doesn't just fire them to avoid lawsuits when there is a false charge against them? What about police men? It seems that for every job there is a balance that needs to be struck between protecting good employees from wrongful termination and allowing bad employees to be fired. I'm not sure where teacher tenure falls on that scale, but you've convinced me that they probably ought to have a little more protection than I previously thought they should.### Assistant: > Should doctors get tenure at their hospitals to prevent them from a) firing experienced doctors to hire cheaper inexperienced doctors, b) allow them to challenge policies of hospital administrators, and c) ensure that the hospital doesn't just fire them to avoid lawsuits when there is a false charge against them? Hospitals are directly invested in outcomes. An experienced doctor gets paid more for a reason. It's different for teachers because it's difficult to actually assess performance(and I really don't have an answer for that issue).* Also, regarding c, [hospitals are directly liable for employee negligence](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/medical-malpractice-patients-sue-hospital-negligence-30189.html), so they would face no relief if they fired the doctor. Frankly, I see no reason why doctors couldn't challenge policies of hospital administrators, particularly if the doctors believed that it would result in worse patient outcomes. *I think this is the biggest difference between teachers and other professions. Experience is almost always paid for in professional fields. The issue is that noticing a decline in student performance can be very difficult, so there could be a definite short term advantage to administration in cutting costs for a school district. Particularly in a close election, it could be very tempting to cut costs so that you can point to how you've helped the district, when in reality, you've hobbled it's performance in the future. The fact that the people who make the decisions on hiring are so far removed from the people who are receiving the service makes it an entirely different issue compare to most situations.### Human: >Hospitals are directly invested in outcomes. Hospitals are evaluated on lots of things, one of which is average wait times, which are better when you have 10 inexperienced doctors than 5 experienced ones. Assessing performance in hospitals is hard too. >Frankly, I see no reason why doctors couldn't challenge policies of hospital administrators, particularly if the doctors believed that it would result in worse patient outcomes. The same reason that teachers can't: because administrators don't like it when you do that, so they fire you.### Assistant: >Hospitals are evaluated on lots of things, one of which is average wait times, which are better when you have 10 inexperienced doctors than 5 experienced ones. Assessing performance in hospitals is hard too. That's true, but when life or death is on the line, people tend to be more willing to save lives over saving dollars. That same parallel isn't that obvious in teaching(though it does exist to a degree).### Human: >That's true, but when life or death is on the line, people tend to be more willing to save lives over saving dollars. That really doesn't seem to be the case, from what I've seen of the world. It seems to me that the executives in charge of these types of decisions are generally pretty good at rationalizing away all kinds of human atrocities when it helps their bottom line.### Assistant: Really it's a matter of how close you are to the deaths. When you just fired the heart surgeon who could have saved one of your patients, it's a lot tougher than if you're making decisions from very far away. You just have to look at how much money is spent on life saving measures that the very doctors performing wouldn't want done on themselves. That sentence was kind of butchered. Let me try again. We spend a lot of money on life saving and life extending measures. But if you poll the doctors performing those measures, very few of them want those same measure for themselves. We are happy to spend lots of money on extending lives, even when there's not really that much life left there. It's just hard to watch somebody die, and feel responsible for that because there was something you could have done. EDIT: I don't know if that made any sense, I really need to get to sleep.

### Human: CMV: Adding extra ingredients to a grilled cheese doesn't make it any less than a grilled cheese### Assistant: I think you are focusing on intent when the issues are actually flavor and texture. It doesn't matter how artistic you are or what you mean to make. It only matters what's on the sandwich. And certain foods change the character of a grilled cheese. Add tuna and the sandwich tastes of tuna. The cheese takes a backstage to that powerful flavor. In contrast, when you butter your bread you never find the butter takes over the flavor. Unless you had some potent baconbutter or tuna butter or whatever. YourGouda/apple/bacon melt might be tasty. But it doesn't taste like grilled cheese. The cheese isn't up front and ccenter because bacon is a divA. Also apple changes the texture completely. You may have the best intentions in the world, but at some point a sandwich stops being a grilled cheese. That point is earlier than gGouda/apple/bacon. It is further than 'butter the bread with margarine instead of butter'. The margarine might be aka dumber idea, but it doesn't take over the sandwich.### Human: A powerful ingredient doesn't mean it is the primary aspect of the sandwich. A grilled cheese with mustard is delicious, and tastes of mustard, however it would strain credibility to call it a mustard melt.### Assistant: A grilled cheese with a hint of mustard is indeed delicious. If you put enough mustard it will overpower the cheese; it'll stop being a grilled cheese at that point. I'd no more call it a "mustard melt" than I'd call a fried cod with cheese a "cod melt", but melts and grilled cheeses are hardly the only options in the world.### Human: What about some garlic powder? Even a dash of that can easily overpower some milder cheeses.### Assistant: Seasonings and condiments aren't primary ingredients and adding them to any dish rarely changes the dish's name. I'm not exactly sure where to draw the line, but it might be when an additional ingredient dramatically changes the flavor and texture profile of the sandwich. A grilled cheese should be a warm gooey sandwich with primary flavors of cheese and bread.

### Human: CMV: Credit reporting bureaus like Equifax should be nationalized### Assistant: The Federal Government has equally weak security. OPM hack gave every federal employee and contractor's info up. Nationalizing Equifax wouldn't improve their security.### Human: Some federal systems are badly maintained, but we do have the cyber command, which is an offense line and the NSA which is supposed to be defensive. It depends on who takes care of the IT, and that would depend on how much priority the system is given. Because this would be super important for protecting both the poor and the rich's data, I think it would have priority on the best cyber suites in gov.### Assistant: The fact of the matter is that the government does just as bad at the moment. If the government got better, then maybe you would have an argument. That being said, it is besides the point. Using SSN as a unique identifier is a flawed system. Unless that is addressed, there will be issues.### Human: Using SSN is a bad idea, but I don't agree that the government is bad at keeping information safe. There's a notable hack on NSA, but otherwise the agencies that are tech-oriented tend to do a lot better than these private companies. The government doesn't compete for talented programmers in the same way that those in the open corporate market do. People want to work for google, and not building Google maps, but doing something sexy. When someone works for the government, particularly the military, they do it for reasons that have little to do with that. If our military is the one securing these systems, we would have some of the best talent keeping this info safe. Afterall, the people at the NSA are the Caltech guys, the people at Equifax are not. They're likely to source cryptosys largely from third party vendors.### Assistant: > Using SSN is a bad idea, but I don't agree that the government is bad at keeping information safe. As someone who was a part of the OPM hack....I'm gonna go ahead and disagree. A database of people with security clearances....hacked. > If our military is the one securing these systems, we would have some of the best talent keeping this info safe. I am correct in assuming you have never served based in that comment? When I got vaccinated for smallpox in the army, there was a specific warning to not put clp(gun oil) in the festering skin. That warning didn't just come out of nowhere. Enough soldiers put gun oil on their smallpox shot that a warning was necessary.... > Afterall, the people at the NSA are the Caltech guys, the people at Equifax are not. They're likely to source cryptosys largely from third party vendors. I personally think that we should have the NSA worried about national security. The government needs to either create or regulate a personal identification system that does not rely on SSN. A high school senior interested in encryption could implement a better system.### Human: Different areas of the military attract different types of people### Assistant: Any thoughts on the OPM hack that runs completely contradictory to the argument you are making?### Human: Prior to you mentioning I wasn't familiar. I would certainly like to look into this. Perhaps you would be able to shorten the discovery process and the search costs by mentioning some details about the underlying security systems. However, my point isn't that government is incapable of being hacked. My argument is that some of our agencies are uniquely capable of defending infrastructure such as a nationalized credit reporting system. If it were treated as critical infrastructure, the data would be as safe as our energy system for instance. Though this isn't completely safe today, it's much safer than being in the hands of Equifax because of the resources available to the government. Fyi, your style is a little argumentative. Take a look at some of the below comments. They serve as exanples of people who still remember that they dont need to be aggressive when debating the merits of something.### Assistant: > Prior to you mentioning I wasn't familiar. I would certainly like to look into this. Perhaps you would be able to shorten the discovery process and the search costs by mentioning some details about the underlying security systems. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach > However, my point isn't that government is incapable of being hacked. My argument is that some of our agencies are uniquely capable of defending infrastructure such as a nationalized credit reporting system. JWICS was compromised by Snowden. SIPR was compromised by Manning(and was granted Clemency for his/her actions) and OPM got hacked by god knows who getting details on millions of Americans with security clearances. JWICS, SIPR and OPM were all individually worse for our country than this hack in my opinion. Kind of unrelated to netsec , do you remember the Obamacare website fiasco? In the past few years, the government has had several high profile breaches....It simply does not make sense to have them take over at this point in time. It would make more sense to deal with our antiquated system of using SSN for everything persec related. > Fyi, your style is a little argumentative. Take a look at some of the below comments. They serve as exanples of people who still remember that they dont need to be aggressive when debating the merits of something Address the content of my replies, not my style.### Human: !delta I think you have a point that the gov doesnt always do a good job here. I think style is important for relating other people and not being ya know dickish, but in some areas of life having empathy or people skills doesn't matter and this happens to be one of those places. Here's a delta### Assistant: Thanks, that was my first delta. Sometimes perception and intentions are misinterpreted in communications....Especially text based. Think about my perspective in this conversation. I gave my info and all my families info to the government. I assumed, like you, that the government knew what they were doing. I mean there is info in my SF86 about girls in foreign countries that I had relations with. Then through sheer negligence the government lost that to a foreign government(presumably). Anyways, good CMV post...Have a good one.### Human: I'm sorry that happened to you. Hopefully one day the cyber wars end. Best wishes

### Human: I believe that falsely accusing another person of rape with the intention of defaming that person should be a felony. CMV### Assistant: I think the problem with this is the idea of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. When someone is accused of rape, and acquitted, that doesn't automatically mean that the person that accused them of rape was lying. It could be that the person *did* rape them, and everyone knows it, but there wasn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to prove it. Proving that someone intentionally lied about someone raping them is a whole separate issue from proving if they were raped in the first place. They have to be treated as two separate cases. You can't automatically assume that if one person is found innocent of rape, then their accuser should be found guilty of lying about the rape. Unless the process is handled *very* carefully, it could serve as another barrier in preventing legitimate rape victims from reporting the crime. If they feel that they could actually be thrown in jail for being a rape victim if the rapist has a better lawyer than them, they might be too afraid to report the crime. Your idea sounds like a relatively good idea in theory, but how would you implement it in a feasible way that wouldn't put innocent rape victims in jail?### Human: I think that if someone is acquited we should try to find out if the person accusing was lying. Here is the important part, if we can prove she lied to the court, the consqequences should be devastating. Lying to the court should be one of the worse crime. People would think twice before bullshitting. It's still a risk many would take because it's hard to prove that someone was lying but in the particular case of rape accusations, it could deter a couple of malevolent souls.### Assistant: > People would think twice before bullshitting. People would also think twice before reporting rapes that actually happened, to be fair.### Human: If its true you have nothing to fear.### Assistant: except that if your charge against the rapist doesn't stick, you are now automatically being investigated as if you are a liar. Plus socially people tend to believe that anybody accused is guilty, which is not something I would like to put on a rape victim. There's also the chance (however slim) that you could be convicted falsely. So I would hardly call that "nothing". Tell the guy on trial for rape that he has "nothing to fear" so long as he didn't do it.### Human: I'd like to say you are completely wrong, but I can't.

### Human: I don't believe that whether or not homosexuality is a choice should be relevant to the same sex marriage debate. CMV!### Assistant: I agree with your general sentiment. Our evaluation of the morality of people's sexuality should not hinge on whether they choose their preferences or not. But this is CMV, so to challenge your views, I'd point out that there is some value in pointing out that homosexuality is not a choice. This applies to arguments against Christians who try to "cure" homosexuality, since it demonstrates that any project to make homosexuals into heterosexuals is bound to fail.### Human: Being black isn't a choice, but Michael Jackson managed to become white. Polio isn't a choice, but it can be cured. You can change involuntary things.### Assistant: [deleted]### Human: Vitiligo happens in blotches; it doesn't gradually make your skin lighter. Now, Jackson may indeed have had vitiligo and may have simply had plastic surgery done to avoid blotchy skin, but he still had surgery to turn him white.### Assistant: Jackson told Oprah years ago that the white blotches covered so much of his body that he chose to use whitening makeup to "even out" his skin and cover up the remaining patches of pigmentation, which explains why he never appeared blotchy in public. Whether Jackson had vitiligo is not in doubt; the coroner confirmed it. He was able to observe the discoloration on Jackson's corpse - which pretty much destroys your surgery theory. Direct quote from the autopsy report: "Some areas of the skin appear light and others appear dark."### Human: [deleted]

### Human: CMV, When bills are proposed in congress (state and federal levels) they should be atomic and singular, containing only the one law at a time.### Assistant: Most of the time when this is done, it is done to gain support for the larger "main" item in the bill from congresspeople or senators who otherwise would not support it or who are on the fence. If Congress needs 50.1% of the vote to pass a bill, and they only have 48%. They can add something like "$2M to fix a bridge in Iowa" and get the support from those Congresspeople who now don't have to pay for the bridge with state tax dollars and they can go back to Iowa and say "look what we did for you!" Now, whether or not you believe this is morally right is another question. But let's say that first main bill benefited a large part of the country but it wouldn't have passed without the support of those Iowa Congresspeople. Maybe those Congresspeople promised not to vote for that kind of bill and in order to maintain their campaign promises to their constituency, they need to go back with a big "this is why we did it, don't punish us, look at the shiny new bridge we got you that will cost you nothing."### Human: Well, The HB2 bill is what got me thinking about this. Everyone is focusing on the bathroom issue (which bathroom can transgendered people use) instead of the more important things like employee rights. There are many many cases of things being snuck (sneaked?) into law this way.### Assistant: Regardless of whether this particular piece of legislation (or any others) had line items snuck in, your OP said you think all bills should be voted on as separate line-items with no addendums at all. Doing things this way would eliminate the ability of elected representatives to scratch each other's backs for the good of their own constituencies.### Human: That's exactly the point, reduce back scratching since that's not an obvious thing. The job of the congress is to represent their community, not scratch the backs of cronies.### Assistant: The trouble is that Washington runs on quid pro quo. As votes are public record and binary yea-nay, your proposal reduces the win set of any negotiation to nearly nothing.### Human: yes that's precisely the trouble. single issue bills could help stop quid pro quo cause now people won't have cover by convoluting the situation. no more "yes i promised to back the TPP(or whatever) but i had to vote for it because it supports poor people!" or something like that. now people are 100% accountable for their votes. no more muddying the issue. if they do a quid pro quo, like say vote yes for tpp then next time SS comes up we'll vote in your favor. now people can clearly see it.

### Human: I think most people join social fraternities and sororities nowadays just to boost their egos and gain approval from others. CMV### Assistant: This will sound like a cop out, but to some extent it is true: it's very difficult to explain to somebody who isn't in it themselves. Not trying to be patronizing, it just is what it is. So, first of all, the reasons people rush are incredibly varied. Some do it for a sense of brotherhood and unity, others do it as an excuse to party, others do it because it will look good on their resume, others because they're naturally shy and this is a good way to break out of their shell, etc. And typically, whatever house you end up in will have aspects of all of those, as well as reflect your personal goals. As someone who was rush chair in my fraternity, I'll just say this: I'm really good at sniffing out the people that are doing it for the wrong reasons. We're creating men of character and brothers, not just dudes that wanna throw down. I think most of the upper tier frats and sororities are the same. If a pledge were to shit talk another pledge or an active behind their backs, and I heard it, I'd send their ass packing. Same with better sororities. As for "only associating with other Greeks", fair point. It's not true of me (I can rub along with pretty much anyone), but it is true of a lot of dudes. But I don't think that's being hive-minded or shallow. It's just natural to hang out with people that have experiences and interests in common with you, which is true of other Greek students by definition.### Human: I joined a fraternity because of the promiscuous sorority social events I was well aware about. That combined with the fact most of those girls were extremely attractive and much less reserved when it came to interactions with fraternity members. It wasn't really an ego or approval thing because I had already met most of my closest college friends before actually joining one. Don't get me wrong though, the friends I made afterwards are close to me as well. ***TL;DR I went to a major fraternity school and joined one just to have sex with attractive and "easy" sorority sisters. Not exactly proud of it, but it is what is.***### Assistant: >Don't get me wrong though, the friends I made afterwards are close to me as well. And this is the perk you get from it, too, apart from the sex with hot people. I'm unsure what OP was getting at when he said he thinks Greek life is like this 'nowadays', when it's been like that for as long as I remember.### Human: > apart from the meaningless sex with hot people. Let's not forget that fun things aren't always wholesome. Some of the close friends we've all made have also talked behind our backs. Globally people promote tribalism, and no one is really exempt until that changes.### Assistant: [deleted]

### Human: CMV: Bernie Sanders not winning South Carolina is not, or at least should not, be a big deal### Assistant: It's a big deal for his campaign; it cements the idea that Bernie's campaign is stuck in the "very liberal white people" bubble. SC Democratic voters are mostly black, and Bernie got absolutely destroyed. He lost by almost 50%, losing every single political demographic in the process. This is also a big deal because Super Tuesday's on Tuesday, and this gives HRC all the momentum going in to the most important day of the election cycle so far.### Human: But black people are exactly the sort of demographic that doesn't matter because they will always vote overwhelmingly Democratic no matter what. Who cares if Bernie doesn't appeal to them? They will still vote for him no matter what when push comes to shove in the general, as long as he still has a D beside his name.### Assistant: > Who cares if Bernie doesn't appeal to them? The point of the primaries is to choose the candidate that will represent each party in the general election. If black people don't support Bernie, there's no reason to believe he'll become the Democratic nominee for President. Therefore, Bernie cares a lot that Bernie doesn't appeal to them.### Human: Super delegates are a portion of the population?### Assistant: You make a good point, but because we're talking about Bernie being nominated, and because Hillary has overwhelming support of superdelegates, it's kind of irrelevant.### Human: 0% chance that superdelegates will decide a nomination. Hate this fucking irrelevant argument.### Assistant: I doubt they will either, but still, it's worth mentioning that Hillary has the overwhelming support of the Democratic establishment.### Human: This is true. It's important to note that the establishment definitely backs her. But the delegates themselves aren't of much consequence

### Human: I believe that "justice" just for the sake of it is bad for society. Subreddits like "justiceporn" tap into a part of human nature that kind of scares me. CMV### Assistant: Justice doesn't exist for its own sake. It exists because as a species, humans are defined by what they do as a social animal. Our methods of socialization are based upon trust. When we see someone violate trust placed upon them by an individual or society at large, we cooperate less and ultimately accomplish less. Justice doesn't just exist to comfort a victim or to punish an offender. It exists to keep individuals from pulling away from society, from abandoning cooperation as a means of moving forward.### Human: If justice existed just to comfort a victim or punish an offender, it wouldn't be justice, it would be revenge. Completely agree with you, great explanation.### Assistant: What does justice exist to do then, if not that?### Human: Justice is (or should be) deterrence and rehabilitation. There should be some punishment to deter people from committing a crime, however the main focus should be on rehabilitating criminals (if possible), rather than satisfying the victim or the public's desire for revenge.### Assistant: Not just that. Have you ever lived or worked in a very small community? I'm talking about "less than 200 people, everyone knows your name" small. In these sorts of communities, trust is paramount. But what happens to these communities when one person who *everyone* trusted commits a sexual assault? Here's what happens, everyone cooperates with everyone else a little bit less. Unless that person is removed from the group, things can't go back to the way they used to be. Because of that, you should consider that sexual assault as a crime against not just a single person: to a lesser degree, it is a crime against the whole community. Now when this community gets together for a holiday to have a few drinks, everyone is very cautious and they'll treat each other as suspect.

### Human: CMV: Telling women that they should view all men as potential rapists is unfair to men.### Assistant: The snake analogy is awful, really - I read that article a couple of days ago and thought well, this is certainly going to be helpful. /s What about this analogy: you're driving. Any car on the road could veer into yours at any time - even the cars of your friends and neighbours. You're vigilant, because you're on the road and a crash is always possible. However, you use this road every day and have for years without crashing, so you're not really that stressed about it. And hey, you're a car yourself - so other people might be vigilant about you. Half of the cars are green, while the other half are yellow. The yellow cars tend to be smaller and their protection kind of sucks. Yellow car drivers tend to drive a bit more defensively, especially if traffic gets hairy sometimes. Green cars are bigger, sturdier, faster, and their drivers take some more risks. Statistically, most crashes involve a green car - either green-on-green, or green-on-yellow. I don't know if that holds up. The rhetoric of late has gotten to the point of book-flinging and extreme accusations; honestly, women live with men and most of the time we love the people we're around, we're relaxed, traffic is running fine. We're all capable of hurting each other, but it's much, MUCH more humane to ourselves and others to trust most other people. That doesn't change the fact that if things go bad, one group has little choice other than relying on defensive tactics, and you keep that in mind, very quietly, all the time.### Human: [deleted]### Assistant: Not necessarily. Not all rapes committed are with malicious intent. A lot of them are in a nasty grey area of consent and power, which is why anyone is capable of doing it to anyone else. But not a bad point.### Human: Everyone is not capable of rape. That is an extremely toxic and pessimistic view of men and an extremely nihilistic view of the rape issue. With that type of view, rape is just a normal part of life and there's not much we can do to stop it. With that type of view, every man really is a potential rapist. This is simply not true. I disagree with OP that it is unnatural or bigoted to experience a chemical reaction of fear when a woman finds herself alone in a certain situation with a man or instinctive apprehension when deciding whether a man is someone who can be trusted not to hurt her, but the very reason why it is not bigoted is because I am not out there saying "I hate men," "all men are rapists," "all men are capable of rape." Rape isn't an accident. It may not be calculated and planned for years in advance, but that doesn't make it an accident. Let's not degrade men in such a way to suggest that their baser instincts make them unable to stop themselves from harming women. It's simply untrue and this type of thinking is harmful to men and women.### Assistant: Sorry, in my experience every person is capable of it - women and men. Or at least sexual assault. Of the people I know who have been affected, the incident almost universally involved someone they knew, sometimes even someone they had been intimate with before, and the consent broke down entirely for one reason or another. I think quite many rapes are committed without one party even recognising it for what it is, particularly when both parties have known each other a long time. The idea is not to instil a toxic outlook where you can't trust anyone. The point is that communication is something we need to learn vis a vis human intimacy; the "script" we're usually supposed to follow (according to movies et al) is rotten.

### Human: CMV: A chimpanzee with no legs would still beat a human in unarmed combat### Assistant: I think you are underestimating the usefulness of human intelligence. The human can, say, throw some dirt in the chimp's eyes or otherwise distract it, get behind it and strangle it. The lack of legs would make it very difficult for the chimp to throw the human off. [In addition, while the chimp could use its arms for locomotion, it would need to choose whether to use them to move or to attack. A human with some skill could also time a kick at the face of the approaching chimp - in order to stop it, it would need to use it's arm, which would cause it to fall over, something it wouldn't naturally want to do.] Game over. Chimp: 0, Human: 1. (And, no, of course this wouldn't be a sure thing, but certainly very possible.)### Human: I assume unarmed combat means you can't throw dirt in its eyes. I don't think you are taking it's back easily, and if you do the chimp will be able to unstrangle itself and fuck you up easy. It's not a really strong man with no legs, it's a chimp. Say goodbye to your fingers and eyes. I think you're right OP. The chimp would fuck people up.### Assistant: >I assume unarmed combat means you can't throw dirt in its eyes. Why? The OP has this happening in a field, not in a an endless metal hangar. Use what you have. How is a legless chimp being strangled from behind going to reach you?### Human: With it's long, dexterous arms. Even if it's not in a position to reach back and throw you off it, it will be able to reach your grip and pry your arms apart.### Assistant: >pry your arms apart A properly done chokehold is basically unbreakable if the victim does not have some kind of weapon. The position is pretty much as bad as it can get for using your arms.### Human: Chimps are massively stronger than the strongest human. One that walks with their arms is probably even stronger.### Assistant: 2x strenght given equak weight is not going to change a thing here. Chokeholds still put the victim in a very dangerous situation, and easily work even when a small person does them on a far bigger opponent### Human: 4x

### Human: CMV: I believe that doing an accent is not racist no matter who you are and what accent you are doing.### Assistant: If you have any idea how language works, you know that the defintions of words and the way people use words are fluid. It is obvious to any English speaker that many use "racist" to mean "offensive to a particular group divided by a particular ethnic background" even if that's not *quite* the dictionary definition.### Human: I see what you mean and although I agree with you, I don't think this challenges my argument. Offending a particular group of people is not default racist.### Assistant: Your view is that doing an accent is culturally insensitive and has nothing to do with skin color (race) and is therefore not racist. But many people conflate culture with skin color and use the word "racist" to refer to anything that is offensive to either.### Human: > But many people conflate culture with skin color and use the word "racist" to refer to anything that is offensive to either. And those people are simply incorrect. Further, to if you wish to argue that language is fluid and can mean what people think it means, then point out that conflating genetics with culture is exactly what the westerners believed in the colonial period. Beliefs such as "the Indian race does not have the governing genes that the white races have and so we should govern India" are logically identical to "Black people own rap and white people doing it is cultural appropriation". Both fit into the logic of "being [race] gives you rights in [cultural practice]". The anti-racism movement sought successfully to expose the falsity of that logic. So either race =/= culture, or we lose the fundamental reason *why* "racism" is wrong.### Assistant: I don't see how they are logically identical. In one it is saying that s people who ruled themselves competently for three thousand years are suddenly unable because white people appeared. In the other white people are trying to take some other cultures creation and make money off it by removing black people from the presentation.### Human: But your second argument assumes that white people can't belong to or understand "black culture" and vice versa. If a white kid adopted by black parents who belong to "black culture" becomes a rapper this isn't cultural appropriation because he is culturally "black" whether or not his skin is white. Cultural appropriation may be wrong but let's not believe that culture=race.

### Human: CMV: The fouling strategy at the end of basketball games is an inherent flaw in the game. New rules should be implemented to discourage fouling.### Assistant: If you stop fouling, then the team with the lead just would play keep away indefinitely. Is that really more enjoyable to watch? The current rules require the team in the lead to have good passing skills and to have the ability to make free throws. How is that not completely in-line with the fundamentals of the game? I get your point that it gets a little silly in a blowout, but why not use the game to hone those skills that will be needed in a close game? Or to give your 2nd stringers a chance to get more experience, and "play to win" even if they game is a foregone conclusion?### Human: > If you stop fouling, then the team with the lead just would play keep away indefinitely. Is that really more enjoyable to watch? Originally, in American football possession changed when one team scored, when the ball was intercepted and at half-time. Some teams decided to waste time to run down the clock, leading to some very boring games. Consequently, the rules were revised so that teams needed to gain at least 5 yards in 3 downs (which was later decreased to 10 yards in 4 downs) to remain in possession, preventing teams for stalling for literally half the game. Something similar could be done in basketball: at the end of the game, you have x seconds to score (for some reasonable value of x) or the other team gets the ball.### Assistant: ...kind of like a shot clock?### Human: Apparently. Given the existence of a shot clock, how exactly does the team that's up "play keep away indefinitely"?### Assistant: They don't. The argument being made in favor of the foul-and-timeout game is to prevent a problem which cannot last longer than a maximum of 24 seconds.### Human: True, but that's a lot of time if all they are doing is playing keep away.### Assistant: Reduce shot clock to, say, 12 or 16 seconds for teams who are up with a given time left in the game?### Human: That would have some interesting ramifications. Down by 10, 12 second shot clock. The other team scores, and now the clock is back to 24, until the leading team scores again. Or, you could decrease the shot clock for post teams in the final minute - but honestly, I don't see the problem with the way it works now anyhow.### Assistant: > I don't see the problem with the way it works now anyhow. The mechanics of the game specifically encourage fouling repeatedly as a viable strategy. My perspective, as a soccer referee, is that any mechanic that encourages fouling is a faulty mechanic. I don't love basketball, but I don't mind it either - but the last two minutes of games where it's just 'inbound, foul, shoot, inbound, foul, shoot' just seems utterly ridiculous, similar to the abuse of tossing the ball up to oneself before the introduction of 'dribbling'. It makes the game work, sure, but it's only there because the rules weren't as well thought out as they could be.### Human: As I said above, unlike, say, shootouts in soccer or hockey which are completely artificial, that endgame still uses standard basketball skills - passing and shooting. What would you prefer?### Assistant: I would prefer a solution that doesn't encourage fouls. Whether that be a shortened shot clock or some sort of shootout type thing, I don't know.

### Human: CMV:Lowering application standards for women in computer is bad for both genders### Assistant: > In response to this, universities and jobs appeared to have lowered their standards for female applicants compared to their male counterparts. What, really? Do you have a link to an example?### Human: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/04/09/new-research-how-elite-colleges-make-admissions-decisions MIT http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/uhoh Carnagie Melon https://colleges.niche.com/carnegie-mellon-university/admissions/ CalTech https://colleges.niche.com/california-institute-of-technology/statistics/ In addition to my visit to my own school, where the tour guide said something along the lines of when applying to engineering, being a girl is like taking a few points onto your act score### Assistant: The only link I see supporting your argument is the mitadmittions.org blog, which just presupposes that female applicant are less qualified based on their acceptance rate... or something. It's not really all that clear. The insidehighed.com article doesn't appear to support your argument that application standards are lower for women; instead, it mentions how points are added to college applications for a variety of reasons, including minority and women status. It seems pretty clear the bar isn't any lower for women than it is for men; instead, women may receive additional points towards their application, possibly to correct for some of the factors which may have led to the disparities to begun with.### Human: > It seems pretty clear the bar isn't any lower for women than it is for men; instead, women may receive additional points towards their application These are functionally equivalent.### Assistant: So basically, a women with score 50 gets, say, 5 extra points. The bar to entry, say, is 70. A man, thus, has to get 70. But a female only has to get 65. A **lower bar for women**.### Human: No, this is more like a woman has 70, and then gains 5 points. One man has 80, the other has 75. Everyone is qualified. A woman with an 1800 SAT is not going anywhere near Stanford no matter how much of a minority she is in any other possible way. "better qualified" is extremely debatable. Consider a woman who may have slightly lower test scores but does extremely well working at her internship. You can't assume someone who scored higher than her would work better. People have strengths and weaknesses. No one is admitting unqualified students. It's sad there aren't spots for everyone but it's a BIG deal to have women even interested in engineering/cs to begin with. Tl;dr overcrowding engineering, girls can get picked, but they are still qualified. Schools just choose to prioritize fixing the gender gap for better workplaces and industries for all.### Assistant: So you're saying that, although the bar is lower, it's not that much lower, so people will still have mostly competent female lab partners?### Human: They are saying 70 is the bar everyone has to reach it before anything else is considered. So everyone who reaches the bar is competent and acceptance after that is up for debate by the school### Assistant: If you were accepting from most-to-least qualified, regardless of gender, and you change to a gender first model (unless there are insufficient female candidates who meet the minimum bar) you will be rejecting some (more qualified male) candidates in favor some other (less qualified female) candidates you'll be effectively lowering the bar. So if you have: * A male candidate at each score from 200 to 80 * A female candidate at each even score from 200 to 80 * A minimum bar of 100 for all candidates * 100 total spots, 50 for each gender. Then, even though all accepted candidates are "qualified," the least qualified male acceptee will be a 150, while the least qualified female acceptee with be a 102. You could say "while all acceptees are qualified, it is more competitive for men."### Human: I only have experience with the Irish system so I don't really have view on how its done in the us and dont really care to debate it. I was just trying to help clarify what the poster said. Everyone met the minimum qualification, the minimum qualification is the same regardless of breed creed or generation, so everyone is equally qualified once they meet it.

### Human: CMV: Asexuality doesn't have a rightful place in the LGBTQ movement any more than a fetish like BDSM.### Assistant: >No one is trying to force asexuals to have sex. Asexuals are frequently pressured by friends, family, and partners to have sex. It's culturally expected for most that you'll have sex with a boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, or wife. >No one is telling asexuals they have to have sex or be interested in it in order to get married. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/asexual-discrimination_n_3380551.html >When Julie Decker was 19, a male friend tried to "fix" her by sexually assaulting her. >"It had been a good night," said Decker, now 35 and a prominent asexual activist and blogger. “I had spoken extensively about my asexuality, and I thought he was listening to me, but I later realized that he had just been letting me talk." >As she said goodbye to him that night, the man tried to kiss her. When she rejected his advance, he started to lick her face “like a dog," she said. >"'I just want to help you,' he called out to me as I walked away from his car," she explained. "He was basically saying that I was somehow broken and that he could repair me with his tongue and, theoretically, with his penis. It was totally frustrating and quite scary." Corrective rape is very common for asexuals, a shared experience between them and lesbians and gay people. >Heteroromantic asexuals have all the rights a heterosexual couple does. They just have corrective rape, social norms against them, poor medical care, forced expectations. Like lesbians and gay people, they mostly face social challenges, not legal challenges. >Homoromantic asexuals have all the rights a homosexual couple does, and thus their issues with things like, say, employment discrimination or adoption laws stem from the homo- part, not the -sexual part, and they are thus covered under the L/G/B of the LGBTQ community. There have been reported cases of them being expected to engage in sexual banter at the workplace, and being fired for failing to do that. http://asexualawarenessweek.com/docs/AsexualityBias.pdf When questioned, people report a similar bias level to them as gay or lesbian people in hiring and housing issues. They view asexuals as mechanical monstrosities. So, since asexuality has massive spill over into real life and many shared issues with lgbt people they are right to include them in a group. BDSM faces less of those shared issues.### Human: Your arguments apply to many fetishes as well as being an asexual. If your arguments mean to say 'people face this thus should be included' it means many fetishes need to be included. If those same arguments aren't enough of a reason to include it, it doesn't make asexualism included. Ergo, you agree with OP.### Assistant: Could you give me a citation that many people who like bdsm are subject to corrective rape then? Corrective rape bdsm- no google results that seem relevant. Pressured to have sex- no google results that seem relevant. BDSM hormone replacement- no google results that seem relevant. BDSM- potential job issues. So for the vast majority, it's not relevant. Do you have a different fetish in mind for me to google?### Human: I think there are many fetishes where people are pressured into having normal sex, and where people suffer severely and harm themselves trying to shed themselves of it. And it's the principle behind things like corrective rape that matters. I'm sure for many fetishes, people have been hurt in various ways by family members trying to normalize them. It's the harm that counts, not the exact act. If you look hard enough, you'll find all kinds of weird shit out there, and making it a hard requirement for it to be exactly rape is ridiculous. People with a great many fetishes have to keep them secret from society or face all kinds of bullying. I'm sure people can lose their job over telling others they can't have sex without a fursuit.### Assistant: Could you show me some of these people who have been hurt, and how they have a similar level of harm to those who are raped to fix their sexuality?### Human: You honestly don't believe me that people with other-than-normal sex lives are bullied and hurt and cast out of society? What internet do you live in that you don't see this?### Assistant: You compared it to corrective rape. I haven't heard of bdsm individuals being subject to anything comparable to that, even in spirit. Since the internet has so much of it, according to you, it should be easy enough for you to prove your point and prove me wrong.### Human: I'm a girl who is into bdsm type stuff, specifically being dominated and doing 'play rape'. I have to be extremely careful because if a stranger found out, they could think that means I'm down to actually get raped. I also have to be careful with potential partners going too far because 'I like it'. And I do not have any specific links, but I know that when someone go to trial about rape, the defence will try to convince the jury that they wanted it. If the kink was made known the jury might feel less sympathy for them or agree with the accused person that the bdsm person wanted it.### Assistant: I'm sorry for that issue, and wish you better luck in the future.### Human: The issue goes deeper than /u/tweetypi pointed out as well. There is no legal background whatsoever to that kind of situation *and* it's one that isn't accepted by society as a whole. Keep in mind that "abuse" is thrown around pretty easily nowadays, especially when it's about a sane and consensual relationship ("you only say you like that because he is gaslighting you/stockholm-syndrome/he would punish you if you didn't"). The only "solution" someone who is into that stuff has is to keep it in as much of a close circle as possible where the only thing between enjoying your sexuality and being accused of something that can easily ruin your life is trust. Also a perfect environment for people with actual malicious intent. It's also important to note that it's a lose-lose game for everyone involved. Female subs are told they're in abusive relationships (because no *woman* would *ever* consent to physical harm). Male subs are seen as pussies who enjoy getting beaten up by women. Male doms are only in it because they're predators who found easy (obviously mentally damaged because why else would someone consent to *that*) targets and female doms are in it for the money/like beating up men. From my experience there are a ton of snap judgements by people from the outside if they catch a glimpse and most of them imply that the people involved *have* to be in this against their own will or because of mental illnesses. Putting people between "you're sick, it's not normal to enjoy that (...and we can help you fix it)" and "this makes me enjoy my own sexuality" *is* pretty in line with what people are describing about a- or other sexuality.### Assistant: Legally, homosexual bdsm practitioners have been convicted a number of times, heterosexual ones have not. There is some legal background. The rest sounds pretty bad and I am sorry for your experience.### Human: >Legally, homosexual bdsm practitioners have been convicted a number of times For practicing BDSM or for being homosexual? I'd assume a conviction because of rape/assault within the context of BDSM should have occurred for more sexual variations but I'm not sure if the context would even be mentioned. A "consensual non-consent act with ignored withdrawal of consent during the scene" is just as much rape/assault as if someone ignores a non-consenting spouse for example.### Assistant: For practising bdsm and harming others. In many legal systems you can't harm others, even if they consent. Gay men can get imprisoned for spanking, heterosexuals who do it don't tend to be.

### Human: CMV: Any Reasonable Definition Of Human Life Includes Unborn Children### Assistant: Unborn humans are definitely human. The problem is at what point does its rights superseded the rights of its host (mother) that's what people mean by personhood. At what point does mother become two people under the law.### Human: Fair enough. I'd argue that all humans should have equal rights, but that's not the question at hand.### Assistant: On the question about all humans should have equal rights have we not already established that we have to restrict certain people's rights to prevent them infringing on other people's rights? For example we restrict the freedom of dangerous people to prevent them infringing on others right to live?### Human: Exactly. But you don't have to restrict *certain people's* rights, you can restrict everyone's rights. No one has the right to steal, everyone has the right not to get stolen from. That is equal. I'm advocating that right to live should, in fact, be something that all humans have.### Assistant: We balance rights against each other when they are in conflict. Our courts have held that an unborn human's right to live exceeds the mother's right to privacy when it can exist outside of its mother. This is why the state can and usually does prohibit abortions in the 3rd trimester. Whether someone is a person or not is not the issue. Whether and when and to what extent that person's rights outweigh another's is. So, any reasonable definition of human life can and should include fetuses. That does not mean that fetuses have rights superior to that of born humans.### Human: I don't see why guaranteeing it's right to survival any different mandating that parents have to provide for their child. I don't see how that's giving them extra rights that others don't have.### Assistant: Children and other dependents outside the womb can't force one particular person to care for them. If the parents/caretakers are unable or unwilling to provide for the child/dependent properly, it can be taken away and given to people who can. At current technology levels, a fetus below the age of~24 weeks gestation can only be cared for by one person. It is unfortunate that if the person is unwilling or unable to continue providing care for the fetus, the fetus dies, but the fetus shouldn't have the special right to force one single person to provide care against her will (and at not insignificant risk to her own health and wellbeing).### Human: Actually, the parents are always responsible to take care of a born child. Granted, they are able to relinquish that responsibility to someone else, but the third party has to be both willing and able to take care of that child. There's no reason why unborn children shouldn't be extended that right.### Assistant: I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. There is physically no way for an unborn child below a certain gestational age to be cared for by anyone but its mother. Maybe in the future that might change, but not now. Whereas a child that is born can be cared for by literally anybody willing and able to do so, and if nobody can be found, it can become a ward of the state. By forcing one specific person to care for an unwanted fetus without the opportunity to relinquish her responsibility to others or to the state, you are giving an "extra right" (as you put it in the comment that I originally responded to) to the fetus that living children do not have.### Human: I don't feel like scientific advancements (or lack thereof) should dictate basic human rights. I'm saying that unborn children should have the right to be cared for by someone capable of caring for them, and I see no reason why that should be denied based on the number of people that qualify. I see no reason why that's an "extra" right any more than it'd be an "extra" right to accommodate for blind kids in schools. Sure, it's harder, but that doesn't mean it should be denied of them.### Assistant: Well, that's the issue, isn't it? When only one person is even capable of caring for them, it pits the rights of the fetus directly against the rights of the mother. There are lots of people, presumably including yourself, who believe that the rights of the fetus to life outweigh the rights of the mother to not be pregnant against her will. There are others, like myself, who disagree. Personally, for me, my pro-choice stance is a combination of both emotion and practicality. Emotionally: I've had two children and two miscarriages. I know the physical and emotional toll that being pregnant can take, and I wouldn't inflict that on anyone against their will. Practically: On top of that, the majority of women who seek abortions are low income and often have inadequate access to prenatal care, which significantly increases the chances that their pregnancy would be actually life-threatening. For example: >Women who receive no prenatal care are three to four times more likely to die of pregnancy-related complications than women who do. Those with high-risk pregnancies are 5.3 times more likely to die if they do not receive prenatal care. Healthy People 2010 — national health objectives developed in 1998 by US federal health agencies — set a goal of 90% of women receiving “adequate prenatal care” (defined as 13 prenatal visits beginning in the first trimester). However, data suggest that, for 25% of women, their care falls short of this goal. This figure rises to 32% for African American women and 41% for American Indian and Alaska Native women. [Source](http://www.arhp.org/publications-and-resources/contraception-journal/march-2011) Abortion is safer than childbirth at any stage, and the earlier the abortion, the safer it is. In short, if you give me a choice between a fetus incapable of surviving outside of the womb (89% of abortions take place before 12 weeks and 99% of abortions take place before 20 weeks; the youngest surviving preemies were born at 21 weeks, 5 days) and a living woman with ties to the world and, in many cases, other children who depend on her (nearly two thirds of women who seek abortions already have at least one child), I'm going to pick the woman every single time, without exception. I'm in the "safe, legal, and rare" camp. Western Europe has the lowest abortion rate in the world despite the fact that first trimester abortions are legal and readily available in most Western European countries. This is due to a combination of many factors, including comprehensive sex education, universal health care that makes effective birth control and high quality prenatal care readily available, and more. I'd like to see the US move in that direction and I think if we did, our abortion rate would decline naturally on its own. Given the US's existing state of patchy sex education and improving but still inadequate access to effective birth control, I'm not going to blame someone for seeking an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy that occurred due to birth control failure or similar causes. And frankly, if the person both knew about and had access to effective birth control and was simply too irresponsible to use it, I don't want them within 100 feet of a baby, in the womb or out. :P

### Human: CMV: "SJWs" are not a real threat, but are instead a reactionary canard against legitimate criticism of the status quo.### Assistant: The difference between current SJW culture in America and past militant-left ideologies is that this group has become more violent than any group since John Brown. I'm not saying the right isn't guilty of this too. People like Dylan Roof and others are a clear indication that racism is still very much alive in America. But OP, the SJW culture is very much a real threat. In 2016 alone, Black Lives Matter, whose views were supported and exacerbated by SJW college campuses, [killed five police officers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers). Additionally, during the election cycle at my university alone, Trump supporters were punched and pushed, robbed and disenfranchised by "bash the fash" movements. This is a sad tale reflected across the nation. Additionally, many black action movements and radical feminist groups are [segregating themselves under threat of violence](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/10/us/university-missouri-protesters-block-journalists-press-freedom.amp.html) and if someone they don't like infringes on their space, they will punch and push them out. And don't forget [the torture of a mentally disabled Trump voter broadcast live on Facebook as the perpetrators shouted "Fuck white people"](http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/black-captors-torture-white-victim-rant-against-trump-cpd-says/amp/) The fact is, both sides are violent, and both sides are a threat to this nation. But to say that the SJW movement has not inspired violence is a discredit to the many harmed by it recently. EDIT: [A list of attacks](http://amp.dailycaller.com/2016/11/17/heres-a-list-of-completely-substantiated-and-underreported-attacks-on-trump-supporters/) for those of you downvoting without looking into this issue.### Human: > Black Lives Matter, whose views were supported and exacerbated by SJW college campuses, killed five police officers. IIRC, BLM isn't a central movement with real leaders. This is why its such a good bogeyman. Any of its "members" can commit a crime in the name of the movement and it gets pinned on the whole. This is why criticism of BLM is more complicated. I used to criticize it pretty vocally but right now my main criticism is how disorganized it is, leading to things like riots and as you said, violence. If it were more organized we'd either have none of the violence, or someone to pin the blame on concretely if violence did occur. You can't as easily say "BLM is responsible" as you can say for example Dylan Roof is responsible, because its not a really well organized group by design. > Additionally, during the election cycle at my university alone, Trump supporters were punched and pushed, robbed and disenfranchised by "bash the fash" movements. This is a sad tale reflected across the nation. Where did this happen? I was pretty vocal in my views at my uni but was never physically attacked for them. If this is indeed true, then its obvious we need an open dialog where we can talk about our problems without hitting one another like children, or worse.### Assistant: You're right about the decentralization of BLM, but the fact that the 2016 murderer was inspired by BLM and leftist movements shows that these ideologies inspire hate-fueled acts. To reiterate, Trump's rhetoric has inspired some violence too, especially at his rallies. But it has not led to as many murders as has the left, just in the past couple years in a row. [Here's an incomplete list of attacks.](http://amp.dailycaller.com/2016/11/17/heres-a-list-of-completely-substantiated-and-underreported-attacks-on-trump-supporters/). At the University of Pittsburgh, mine, the Trump campaign table was flipped twice and received eleven death threats. [Here's what happened](http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/10/27/watch-trump-table-attacked-at-university-of-pittsburgh/amp/)### Human: That's pretty depressing. Maybe I need to check my class of 2014 privilege because I never had to see that level of hate as to get multiple death threats. But while this local threat is a major problem I still think we are doing more harm by trying to fight "sjw" culture outside of colleges where it just doesn't survive in reality. I'm a gay guy and I know plenty of friends who have gotten death threats or got beat up just for who they -were- by members of the right. (Which sent me on a pretty big soul search which is why I'm so self critical now) So we're definitely not better in that regard either.### Assistant: Eventually these college students will graduate, many of them already have, and they will be already radicalized. I understand that homophobia is a very real problem in this country, and I've acknowledged that the right has many issues too, but your original post stated that SJWs are not a threat, and I'm trying to bring their violence to light.### Human: I think I owe you a !delta since that was indeed my CMV, but I think a more valuable way for me to have phrased my own question would have been "Not a proportional threat", rather than "real" threat. I wasn't aware that there was real harrassment and violence on the ground outside of the scuffles between antifa and the alt right. I wasnt totally ignorant that this was happening, but I was very skeptical of media reports tendency to sensationalize things, but it helps to hear from someone who has seen it themselves.### Assistant: FYI if it at all helped you change your mind he 100% lied about the police shooter. http://www.thedailybeast.com/dallas-cop-killer-micah-johnson-was-blacklisted-by-black-power-groups-as-unstable He hated black power/protest groups and saw them as weak. Might as well say he shot them because he was influenced by the military and it would be more accurate because he was at least in that group.### Human: He probably just didn't know that detail like I didn't. This is why it's so hard for me to trust the news anymore. I think his other points are still valid and like I said he addressed my post directly but there's a more interesting question to answer anyways I think (proportionality of the threat)### Assistant: Another thing, he said that not as many people have killed in the name of Trump as people have for the left. Well, that's not fucking surprising considering he compares one person's influence to an entire political side. Also, even if he didn't know he was lying, that should still change your mind about giving him a delta.### Human: Not necessarily. If BLM wasn't pushing false narratives and spewing lies about police violence, claiming that dead blacks are lining the streets, then the 2016 murderer wouldn't have been pushed to "fight back." It's a movement based on false statistics, pushing a horrible agenda that only demonizes law enforcement and purposefully estranges those communities who need policing the most from the law.

### Human: CMV: In a fight to the death at given conditions, a horse will kill a bobcat more than 90% of the time.### Assistant: So like... Wyld Stallyns (Rules!) are not trained destriers. The point of a horse is to run away. If its just "a horse" I'd give it to the bobcat 4:1 against with the bobcat never actually dying from horse wounds.### Human: Neither of these animals are trained for the task at hand. The "point" of a bobcat is to kill rabbits. >I'd give it to the bobcat 4:1 Not an argument.### Assistant: And a horse is trained to hunt *nothing!* OP. Here's how you know who would win. Who would *you* rather fight.### Human: > And a horse is trained to hunt NOTHING. Ah, but it certainly will defend itself viciously to save its own life. > OP. Here's how you know who would win. Who would you rather fight. If one of us had to die in the 60 minutes, and I had no tools but my bare hands, I think I would *have* to choose the bobcat. I don't even have any idea how I would go about killing a horse. I honestly believe my odds of killing a 40 lb cat would be better than those of a 1200 lb horse.### Assistant: Alright if you fight the bobcat you get horseshoes, if you fight the horse you get a very small but very sharp knife.

### Human: I'm uncomfortable with the idea of my boyfriend watching porn. Please CMV.### Assistant: Would you also object to him watching scientific presentations made by women, in case he thinks you're stupid in comparison? Or fashion shows because he might think you aren't well dressed enough? (or skinny enough) You are defining yourself as a sexual object and therefore you feel threatened by other sexual objects. I would presume that your SO is a decent human being and therefore sees you as much more than that. He is no more likely to compare you to a porn star as you are to compare him to a rampant rabbit.### Human: Tbh, if your boyfriend watches porn, then figure it out yourself, you Arnt good enough for him, he would rather women who are seen to him as just pieces of meat to jack off to than a real loving woman eg yourself. It's just disgusting, the reality...### Assistant: Are you 5? If you honestly believe this, then you should be aware that there is a study posted below which indicates that only 2% of men do not watch porn. Does that mean 98% of men don't love their partners? Don't consider them "good enough"? That's a whole lot of failed relationships...### Human: LOL nice statistics right there, if YOU believe only 2% of men do not watch porn, YOU've got a problem. Pretty sure not everyone has access to the Internet or even that type of material for one. Most of the previous generations did not have access to that material when they were young and continued to abstain. Those statistics are definitely incorrect. I know a large majority of men watch porn in developed countries but why would you release looking at that stuff when you have your own partner (assuming the category we're talking about is in a relationship), does she not fullfill your desires? Is she not enough? Pfft, calling me a 5 year old, well this 5 year old happens to have a better understanding than you. One last thing, NOTE: Not all men have partners.### Assistant: "lol, fuck science, I'm right" Read again, there is a study below which explains exactly what they did to get those statistics, if you care to read it.### Human: Ok good sir, I have read it. Again, it is context driven, in a place where Internet access is freely available within 349 uni students and employees. It's just that your previous post made me think you were saying that 98% of ALL men watch porn. But anyways the statistics given that context are completely plausible and I'm confident that they are correct. But this study of hundreds of people does not in effect represent the billions of men around the world. I don't say they don't love their partners, obviously they do if they're in a relationship, but why watch porn when you have a real life human being? She deserves better.

### Human: CMV: CMV: If we allow transgender individuals transition to living as their self-identified gender identities, we are ethically obligated to provide avenues for people with Body Integrity identity disorder to cut off limbs and disable themselves### Assistant: A mental disorder is not a logic puzzle. What works for one condition may not work for a similar one. The notion that we're obligated to treat one condition a certain way out of consistency with how we treat another condition has no basis in medicine.### Human: This issue transcends medical prescription; it's an issue of personal choice and social stigma, like euthanasia. Mental disorders are based around cultural expectations far more than other illnesses and therefore are arguably inherently ideological.### Assistant: It seems pretty simple. Cutting off a limb is objectively bad for you and also makes you a burden to society. Being transgender is neither.### Human: A penis is a limb. A set of girl plumbing is an entire system of organs. An amputated leg might take someone off the race track, but castrating/spaying them takes their entire reason for existing as a biological organism out of possibility.### Assistant: If that's all you suppose human life is for then sure. But it doesn't impede them from any day to day tasks or jobs and doesn't burden others### Human: You realize that prosthetics exist, right? Are you suggesting that all people who lose limbs are burdens to others?

### Human: CMV: It is fine to remove confederate statues### Assistant: Look, a statue is a hunk of rock. Nothing more. If it's already there don't take it down cause that's a waste of time and energy. If it's not there then don't put one up cause that's *also* a waste of time and energy.### Human: If the Democratic process decides to get rid of it why is there any opposition then? Just a hunk of rock.### Assistant: Okay, yeah. If the city calls a public forum and the people vote to take it down then okay, take it down. But leaving it up to the city government which is mostly bureaucracy is definitely not democratic### Human: Well it's our government. Part of the "social contract". If the system decided to take it down, and you actually don't care personally, there should be no issue. It doesn't cost barely anything to take them down and it does outwardly offend some people. To see people who wanted to keep slavery be idolized like that. I don't buy the whole argument of, "E Lee just chose the wrong side! He wasn't a bad guy". Yeah, nope. Several Union military members from southern states fought for the north because they respected the union and put it above being able to enslave others. It's a pretty simple moral question whether or not it's correct to enslave others for your well being. Famous ethical philosophers like Kant, Aristotle, etc. works were well known and available. It's not as if these people just couldn't think. He had a clear moral and ethical choice. To keep his country together and fight for a cause which would free thousands of people. Or to betray his duty,and his country, for an evil cause. Mayors, governors, reps. are elected and all have power to keep or remove statues. It's democratic in the classical sense that the power comes "from the people" [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WClgR6Q0aPE) is a cool video on the true inspiration for these monuments.### Assistant: I just think it's a non-issue. I'm not gonna get into the history versus offense argument because when it comes down to it it's a statue. It's a rock. Being offended by a rock is not a valid reason to tear it down, *but* by the same token history is not a legitimate argument for preserving it, because **it's a fucking mineral**

### Human: I believe that the praise Heath Ledger received for his role as the Joker was largely informed by the fact that he died shortly after making the film. CMV!### Assistant: As you yourself have stated, this is a very subjective topic, not really possible to prove either way. I will say that this halo effect did not seem to apply to The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus, Ledger's actual last role, which received middling reviews as a whole, and for which Ledger received no accolades. Roger Ebert even said that Colin Farrell played the role better: http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-imaginarium-of-dr-parnassus-2010 So whatever effect Ledger's death had, it was apparently not powerful enough to make people praise his final role.### Human: true, but if you look at the amount both of those films made at the box office the dark knight had many more viewers, so for most people it was the last role they knew he'd played. For reference, the Dark Knight [grossed $534.9M](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/business) while the imaginarium of Dr Parnassus [grossed $7.7M](http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/IMDRP.php)### Assistant: [deleted]### Human: The dark knight was the last role he had that anyone knew about.### Assistant: Parnassus was not an unknown movie though. It just wasn't that great, so no one saw it.### Human: The number of viewers who see a movie an like it isn't necessarily the measure of greatness. Batman was an action flick. That's going to hit a broader market than a quirky morality piece with strange "magical" effects. It's like selling ice cream and spinach at a park then saying that ice cream is better for you based on the fact that most people picked it over the spinach.

### Human: CMV: The USA Women's soccer team does not deserve equal pay to the Men's soccer team.### Assistant: I think this is a good example of the is/ought problem. In other words, men and women make different amounts as it is now, but that's not necessarily how it ought to be. Since both sets of players occupy the same role in the company, with the only difference being gender, they should be paid the same. Taking only into consideration the dollar figure of what the men's team brings in, vs. the women's is a little shallow. You have to consider *why* they bring in more, and ask whether the reason is that men's sports have been much more celebrated, and only in the last ~30-40 years have women's leagues been taken more seriously. Add in that the marketing favors the men, which is another reason they bring in more cash, which the women have no control over. Paying them as equals to the men, would be one step in the right direction toward how the system *ought* to work. That may not necessarily be enough to convince you that they deserve equal pay as the men's team, but it should convince you that there are other factors to consider than revenue, and it's at least worth discussing.### Human: Yes but can you agree that applying that same logic to other industries would be very problematic?### Assistant: Perhaps, but I think that's another discussion. We're talking about soccer specifically, here.### Human: Yes but it wouldn't be fair to use different standards and logic for different groups of people. And fairness is the key concept we are arguing about.### Assistant: Sure, but other industries have different standards and practices. It's hard to generalize, and sports entertainment, is already a sort of weird anomaly. As /u/cacheflow pointed out, there is precedent for this type of pay scale in other sports entertainment industries.

### Human: CMV: I think the fact that Hillary Clinton's top 10 contributors are major banks and corporations makes her a toss-out as a trustworthy presidential candidate.### Assistant: What do you expect her to do? Valiantly refuse the money?### Human: If I was to trust her? Yes. Absolutely. The only politicians I trust refuse corporate money.### Assistant: Personally... I don't think someone who puts meaningless gestures over practical considerations is the kind of person you want to trust. Donations to politicians aren't legally binding contracts, they can take anyone's money and they have no legal obligation to help them. So a politician who turns down corporate money when they could easily take the money and not let that corporation have any influence as a result is making an empty gesture that hurts their chances in measurable ways. Not exactly practical... and politicians NEED to be practical. Righteous indignation doesn't win elections and it doesn't let them get in a position to help people.### Human: I respectfully disagree. A corp wouldn't donate unless they expected something, be it implied or otherwise, and I wouldn't support anyone who even gives off that kind of impression.### Assistant: Then why do individual donors donate? Because they expect that person to make favorable policies. That's why ANYONE donates or gets involved in politics. To push their own agenda. Your values may be somewhat noble, but they also ensure that the people running don't care what you think. You don't matter to them.### Human: I matter to those I support. I know that. I too plan to run on the same principles in due time.### Assistant: Well, I suspect the people you support aren't people in power.### Human: Some are. Or were. Doesn't matter in the long run.### Assistant: It doesn't matter who has political power? isn't that the point of politics?### Human: I support revolution. Political change through parliamentary politics is pointless.### Assistant: ugh EDIT: Taking a shot in the dark, you're a "both parties are the same" kinda person...aren't you?### Human: Mostly. They are capitalist parties.### Assistant: opposed to?...### Human: Socialist, communist, and ostensibly worker-friendly parties (such as the Greens).### Assistant: And how often do you actually vote for candidates?### Human: Eveey election, local to federal.

### Human: At the age Olympians must start training, it's akin to child abuse. CMV.### Assistant: I would say child abuse qualifies as such if there is trauma, psychological damage or some other harm reflected in depression, addictions, phobias, sleeping, eating, relationship or other personality disorders. Just making them work and focus is pretty much the same as forcing them to go through school. If there is any damage it basically turns them into...us? I think you have to present some evidence of negative outcomes of Olympic preparation in order to defend your point.### Human: >Just making them work and focus is pretty much the same as forcing them to go through school Often times school (if they are not homeschooled) and practice is ALL they have time for. You don't think there's any value to a child's leisure time?### Assistant: Sure there is, but replacing this leisure for an olympic career would only be bad if you can show a damaging tendency, not anecdotal. The the children with olympic careers develop some damage at a rate higher than children who do not, then I would agree with you it's something to work on. Otherwise I can't see why you would oppose something that is not harmful just because you'd like them to have more leisure time.### Human: There's no evidence either way.### Assistant: Who do you give the benefit of the doubt then? Parents? Leisure advocates? Extreme caution?

### Human: I think that the sterilization of people who are too mentally deficient to take care of themselves is ok, CMV### Assistant: Is there really that much of a threat of those people breeding? It seem like an unnecessary expense to me.### Human: idiocracy, anyone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8rhIZJAdd0### Assistant: The movie is just plain bad. Additionally, intelligence isn't exclusively genetic, and that process has been occurring for quite some time with no discernible effect. Many poor people (for whom having kids makes more economic and social sense over the lifetime) are intelligent. Many wealthier people (for whom having children represents a greater expense) are less so. Economic status, more than an absurd "Smart = Rich = Few Kids" and "Dumb = Poor = Many Kids", is the driving factor here and is demonstrated by a global slow down in birth rates as people transition to higher paying jobs.### Human: I think you may have missed the point of the movie.### Assistant: I was bored and annoyed by the experience. So, I probably did. The movie was junk, the premise doesn't apply to reality. I haven't the slightest idea why anyone even remembers the thing.### Human: Just in case you ever see the movie again, watch it with the idea in mind that its a parody of sorts. A parody is often making fun of someone or something to illustrate the absurdity of some facet of society. So that leaves the question: who/what is the movie making fun of? Also, its a comedy. The premise doesn't have to apply to reality. Midsummer Night's Dream certainly didn't.### Assistant: I didn't find it funny. I doubt I would if I would watch it again, mostly because I don't think I had a moment were I honestly believed that everyone was stupid but me. Moreover, if it doesn't apply to the situation at hand, why bring it up?

### Human: I believe one of government’s primary functions should be to provide healthcare. CMV### Assistant: One could make *exactly* the same argument about food. Or anything else that people need.### Human: Providing access to food, water, and healthcare seem like good goals for a government to me.### Assistant: Food, Water, Healthcare, Shelter. All basic human needs. Why doesn't the government deliver groceries to my door? Why do I still have to pay my own rent? You're right that government ought to ensure that citizens have access to these necessities. The question isn't "Is healthcare necessary and good for all people to have?" (the answer to that question is a resounding yes), but the real question is "Should the government be put in charge of the means of production and distribution of these necessities for all citizens?" The answer to that question, if you ask me, is a clear no. The government can make sure every has access to healthcare without being "in charge" of it per se. As history has shown countless times, government is not the most efficient distributor of goods and services (Soviet Russia, anyone?) The capitalist system we enjoy in the US allows us to work for wages, with which we can buy what we need and provide for ourselves those basic necessities. This system also creates competition and therefore, a variety of brands in everything from shoes, to toothpaste, and even health insurance. Without this free market incentive, we would not enjoy such variety, and we would be forced to rely on whatever goods and services the government sees fit to provide (I hope you like government-flavored toothpaste.) Now, we should keep in mind that some people, for whatever reason, will not be able to afford the basic needs of their livelihood. I think it's a reasonable assertion that government should be in charge of caring for these impoverished individuals and making sure (through welfare, medicaid, public school system, public transportation, etc) that these people are still given access to necessities, and have an adequate standard of living. TL;DR: Just because it's necessary doesn't mean the government has to be the one to provide it. The free market system, combined with a government safety net for those in poverty, is a more efficient way to ensure everyone's basic needs are met.### Human: >The capitalist system we enjoy in the US allows us to work for wages, with which we can buy what we need and provide for ourselves those basic necessities... even health insurance. Any sane person will tell you necessities are not elastic, which completely shatters traditional "supply and demand" dynamics. Inelastic goods, when either scarce or subject to emergency conditions, are priced as high as possible by suppliers, knowing the public will have to cough up, and due to the nature of the supply and demand model, a large number of the public will go un-served. ***This model is fine for NON-necessities, but it fails horribly for anything considered essential to human dignity.*** The failure of the healthcare market has been obvious to anyone who is not in the "immortal" 18 to 29 age bracket. Any assertion otherwise is a blatant denial of reality, and a denial of the humanity of your fellow citizens. >The government can make sure every has access to healthcare without being "in charge" of it per se. As history has shown countless times, government is not the most efficient distributor of goods and services (Soviet Russia, anyone?) I contest this naive assertion with the following concrete counter-examples: * medicare * medicaid * the rural electrification act * the US state university system * the federal highway system * the federal aviation administration * the provision of utilities (while technically private, they may as well be arms of the state) * the fire and police departments * the military On the closely-related topic of efficiency of government investment: * the internet * the massive grants that went to expanding telephone nation-wide * the hoover dam * the railroad system (almost entirely on land grants) * the louisianna purchase * the federal highway system (not only efficiently maintained, but produced hundreds of trillions in growth) * the apollo project * the manhattan project * green energy initiatives (only 2% of those investments went bust, despite right-wing claims) The government has produced more economic growth than all private sector investments combined, a napkin calculation would place the net worth of the investments near a quadrillion dollars and rising every day### Assistant: Meanwhile, the private sector has provided us with literally everything else. The vast, titanic apparatus required to turn primary products into consumer goods, demand for which ebbs and flows on a daily basis, is an achievement that would be inconceivable for a single actor: the Soviets tried, and failed. Simple incentives structures operate on individuals, leading them to maximise their productive capacity within their private resource limits, leading to a massive, intricate, distributed system of information processing that voluntarily coordinates billions of actions. >The government has produced more economic growth than all private sector investments combined, a napkin calculation would place the net worth of the investments near a quadrillion dollars and rising every day Without taking issue with any of your specific examples, which I easily could, I will simply say this: Opportunity cost. Every single one of those investments was made with money that could not then be invested by the private sector. You have to establish not just that those investments were valuable, but that they are *more* valuable than the investments that would otherwise have been made. Since we cannot know or imagine what might otherwise have been invented, you need to point to some mechanism by which government makes better investment decisions than the private sector. On this last point, I am comfortable citing the entire history of human development.### Human: Inelastic goods and adverse selection are a source of market failure. Citing examples of normal good, where free market principles are actually efficient, is a complete straw man to what the person above you was saying. The private sector can't be an efficient allocator of health care because there is no internal incentive for a firm to lower prices of a necessary good. Competition in the form of an oligopoly is still inefficient as there is little benefit to undercut monopoly prices and for locational and infrastructure reasons it is highly unlikely competition would be any greater than that. Firms are also inefficient agents for supplying health care insurance because of issues with asymmetric information. Socialised health care is the most efficient from an economic stand point even without getting into the morality issue of basic human rights.

### Human: CMV: Welfare benefits incentivize reliance### Assistant: > , it actually makes financial sense (in the short term) to do so. He will have more time to devote (less babysitting) and essentially the same cash on hand. This is something of a flaw with the current system, in than that it doesn't curve well. You've described a situation where advancement doesn't feel like advancement because so many benefits instantly get cut off. When the system actively negates moving above the status quo because it requires more effort to achieve the same rewards, we need to modify the system. > Is having kids a fundamental human right? Does anyone have the right to burden society by having children they can't/ won't support? As others have said, the alternative is to violate human rights by forcibly preventing people from becoming parents. As for whether it's a moral choice: quite often people don't realize what they're getting into when they have kids. It's really hard to know how much it will cost. And then of course there's the fact that over the past 10-15 years, the economic roller coaster has resulted in a lot of families losing income after making the choice to have kids. What should they do when they're upside-down on a mortgage after the housing market crashed and they've lost $10,000 a year after being laid off and taking a lower-paying job? > - CMV that welfare is cyclical and incentives reliance and the state and discourages becoming a net contributor over a beneficiary. The vast majority of welfare programs have time limits on them. Many have lifetime caps. They are designed to assist people on a temporary basis. I've benefited from some of these programs during times of unemployment. I'm remarkably unlucky with jobs: my experience gets me on the high end of the pay grade, which makes me a target at layoff time because I put a bigger dent in the budget. I've been laid off four times in 15 years. It makes for a total of 19 months out of work. During that time we used various government programs to stretch our money as far as we could so that we didn't end up wrecking our credit or losing our home. Yes, there are people who know how to work the system and become dependent on it. But far more recipients are people who need a little help treading water until their situation improves.### Human: > As others have said, the alternative is to violate human rights by forcibly preventing people from becoming parents. No, the alternative is to stop incentivizing childbearing. This involves changing policy so that having a child is no longer a potential source of increasing one's income. > But far more recipients are people who need a little help treading water until their situation improves. I'm not sure this is true. The [wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_dependency) says: > A small but significant group of recipients remained on welfare for much longer, ***forming the bulk of poverty at any one point in time and requiring the most in government resources. At any one time, if a cross-sectional sample of poor people in the United States was taken, about 60% would be in a spell of poverty that would last at least eight years.*** Interest thus arose in studying the determinants of long-term receipt of welfare. Bane & Ellwood found that ***only 37% of poor people in their sample became poor as a result of the head of household’s wages decreasing.*** **EDIT**: To all you dirty downvoters - As discussed in my posts below, it is important to look at how "the poor" is defined. By one definition, /u/ftbc is right - measuring those who *have ever been poor*, a relatively low percentage (18%) has been poor for 8 or more years. However, measuring those who *are poor right now* shows that a much higher percentage (60%) has been poor for 8 or more years. See the [hospital analogy](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3zr498/cmv_welfare_benefits_incentivize_reliance/cyootbd) post below.### Assistant: > No, the alternative is to stop incentivizing childbearing. This involves changing policy so that having a child is no longer a potential source of increasing one's income. The other side of the coin of "stop incentivizing childbearing" is that you're allowing extreme child poverty. That's something that will have lifelong effects on the child, and isn't the child's fault. WIC, CHIP, and SNAP aren't for the parents. They're for the kid. They just can't be paid directly to the kid because toddlers are just *terrible* with money.### Human: You've created a false dichotomy. Not incentivizing childbearing does *not* mean we necessarily have to allow extreme child poverty. What should happen is we provide for an individual / a family's needs at a basic, fixed level, and do it at such a level that if they are to have a kid, the kid will have a roof over its head and food on the table. That may involve increasing welfare payments for everyone else, but that's not necessarily a bad thing and it would remove the financial incentive for childbearing. Or it may not require across the board increases - there are already 8 states where it [pays more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_dependency#Welfare.2C_long-term_reliance.2C_and_policy) to be on welfare than the average teacher makes. So we need to examine what one actually needs to raise the average number of kids, and provide that. In conjunction with free/subsidized birth control, I think you could absolutely stop incentivizing childbearing without creating extreme child poverty.### Assistant: Do you not listen to yourself or do you have no clue what you're talking about? You've just said that the system should change from being what it is into a system where it's just exactly what it is.### Human: Not sure if you read my post. The changes I suggested were: * 1) Increase welfare across the board to the amount necessary to care for an average amount of children. * 2) Eliminate the variable aspect of welfare relating to the number of children a person has. * 3) Provide better access to free or subsidized birth control to help control the number of children a person has.### Assistant: With just plain better paying jobs I think we could cover some of these bases. But I do like your better/free access to birth control idea, that's just good sense. Women's health has a lot to do with this overall issue.

### Human: CMV: Terrorists are not afraid to die. So fighting terrorists with violence is futile and only makes things worse.### Assistant: Terrorist organizations require many types of people. They certainly require angry and easily-manipulated foot soldiers who can be convinced to kill/die for their cause. Yes, bombings can help recruit more of those. But successful organizations also require rational planners, people who can be paid to drive trucks, people who can carry messages, charismatic recruiters, middle managers to handle the bureaucracy and records, cooperative merchants, etc etc. A small number are motivated purely by hatred; the majority are either paid for their work or are more afraid of being beaten/killed by the terrorists than they are of being captured/killed by the US. Increase the level of violence, and you get more angry men willing to die/kill. Yep. But you also get fewer of the rest. The real trick is to ensure that the many people who can be intimidated by terrorists are more intimidated by you. That's a trick that democracies haven't been able to pull since around WWII, but it's certainly available to countries willing to be brutal. Even failing that, democracies can certainly weaken terrorist groups even if they don't end terrorism forever.### Human: > But successful organizations also require rational planners, people who can be paid to drive trucks, people who can carry messages, charismatic recruiters, middle managers to handle the bureaucracy and records, cooperative merchants, etc etc. And you think bombing their countries, attacking their religion and killing their friends/civilians only motivates the kamikazes? They might be afraid to die and will not go on the suicide missions, but they will be more than happy to use their skills to help a cause they find worthy. > Increase the level of violence, and you get more angry men willing to die/kill. Yep. But you also get fewer of the rest. If someone bombs your town and kills a family member, you might not be willing to go on a suicide mission but you're a lot more likely to join the army and fight back.### Assistant: People are much less ideologically motivated than you describe. Generally, the ideology follows the self-interested choice and is created post hoc to justify it. If the terrorists pay better or are scarier than the army, people will join the terrorists and blame the government. If the army pays better or is scarier than the terrorists, people will join the army and blame the terrorists for bringing that disaster on their village. We saw this again and again in Iraq, where Saddam could use chemical weapons against Kurdish villages and then go recruit Kurds for his army. He was scary enough to crush insurgents, so insurgent ideologies had a hard time gaining traction. We saw this in Russia before and after the Revolution. We saw it in Jordan, where the PLO faced a much more severe response from the Jordanians from the Israelis and decided their new ideology would be to consider Israel only as their homeland and abandon anti-Jordanian efforts. We saw it in Afghanistan and Iraq under the US occupation - when we were scarier and better employers, we had an easy time getting villagers to like us. When the Taliban could pay better or make better threats, we saw a lot of people turn "radical" and oppose the US. And even individual-by-individual, when people lost their jobs and needed a way to support their families, they magically became anti-US and pro-Taliban.### Human: I agree with you 100%. We just do not have the means to pay better or be scarier. As I said, if we could somehow get rid of them all, I'd go for it, but this is not the case. And so as long as we are unable to bring a more crushing option like you said, these attacks will only continue the vicious cycle.### Assistant: Tl;dr: we absolutely could, we'd just have to become more monsterous than our opponents. Not quite correct. Most truly modern military forces have more than enough firepower to be more terrifying than anything a terrorist cell could hope to be. ISIS threatening to kill your family would be terrifying, but I suspect less so than knowing that if you help them your entire village/city and everything for miles around it will be rendered as sterile as the surface of the moon with zero warning or hope of defense. It's just that "carpet bomb the entire region until the sand fuses into glass every time somebody causes the least bit of trouble" isn't really an ethically sound strategy in most sane folks' minds, so any democratic government that attempted to do so would be removed from power real fucking quick.

### Human: CMV: All states should be winner take all in the primaries### Assistant: You can make the same argument for the general election. There, almost all states are winner take all. What ends up happening is that blue and red states are virtually ignored, and candidates spend all their time campaigning in a few swing states. Therefore voter blocks in those states (e.g. Cubans in Florida) get a wildly disproportionate influence on American politics. That is not good for American politics as a whole. And as someone who has never lived in a swing state, I can tell you I feel completely left out of presidential elections. With respect to this primary, look at Ohio. Kasich and Trump were in the running there, Cruz and Rubio were not. As a result, Cruz and Rubio both completely ignored the state, with Rubio go so far as to tell supporters not to vote for him. Strategically this makes sense. Let's say you're Cruz and you think that by campaigning in a state (visiting, buying ads, etc) you can bump up your numbers by 10%. In Ohio, that would take you from 13% to 23%, which would yield 0 additional delegates, so you completely skip the state. But if Ohio were proportional, campaigning there would gain you a few additional delegates, so it would be worth your time. There is a chance Cruz becomes the nominee. If you're an Ohioan Republican, wouldn't you be mad that he never made the slightest attempt to court your vote?### Human: ∆ Fair enough, I can see that proportional can encourage candidates to campaign even in states they can't hope to win### Assistant: To add, this translates well to the two party system. Candidates and party leaders have no real incentive to appeal to moderates in the middle, only to their base. This serves to polarize government even more when your goal for winning an election or passing a bill is only done by getting enough people on your side to turn out, as opposed to forming a coalition that makes compromises.### Human: I would like to point out that two party systems are more likely to be stable than coalitions. e.g. Greece, Italy... There is a reason we are not a parliamentary system and the founders framed us as a representational democracy. That is why we originally had winner take all and the electoral college it promotes stability and status quo.### Assistant: Greece and Italy are coalitions in a country in crisis after a long time of two party domination. Germany is ruled by a coalition for a few terms, and Switzerland is embracing the coalition, with 4 party as minister and a dozen in the parliament.