Datasets:

eliwill

/

krishnamurti_discussions

like 2

Now what happens? (In French) No, what happens then? I see a beautiful sensation, desire - then thought comes in and says, 'I wish I could own it'.

No? 'I wish I could have that chair'. No?

So when thought takes over desire - right? - then it becomes pleasure or pain. No?

What do you mean by 'takes over'? What do you mean by 'take over'. I can look at... One can see the car and say, 'How beautiful it is', and leave it there.

But thought says, 'No, I would like to have it'. Right? There thought sustains the desire, gives desire a continuity.

Right? Right, sir? There is not only a desire to get something, there is the desire to get away from something.

It's the same thing, sir. Same thing. The 'get away from something' is pain; desire for something is pleasure.

Right? Can we go on from there? No, please be quite sure.

Don't move away from that if we are not sure. Sometimes desire is an absence of something, not focussed on a specific object which is wanted, but a feeling of something that isn't there without it. Of course.

I have had something very pleasurable yesterday, it isn't there, and I want it. Yes. In that case you would know what it was.

Yes, of course. In some cases you might not be sure. But still...

But is this clear? Desire. How desire arises - contact, perception, seeing, touching, sensation, then thought says, 'I wish I had it', or, 'I wish it didn't happen to me'.

So thought begins the pleasure and the pain. Right? I mean, I am not trying to convince you of anything.

You understand, sir? We are just examining. I am not your authority, because I am gone - couple of days.

Even if I am here I am not your authority anyhow. So that's a fact. And then what am I to do?

Thought is doing this all the time - right? - encouraged by society, the environment in which I live, through magazines, posters, propaganda, the priests - it is doing that all the time, thought is being influenced. And also thought says, 'I wish I had more of that pleasure', 'I want to become the chief minister'.

The same principle - you follow? - I and the society encouraging each other. Right?

So what shall I do? How shall I deal with this thing? How shall the mind tackle this thing?

Must I live always in this duality? Right? Pleasure and pain - battle.

You follow? And that's what is called living. And is it possible to live differently and yet not smother pleasure?

I don't know if you... Not destroy pleasure, like the priests say, 'I must have no pleasure', therefore I won't look at a woman, I won't have sex, I won't look at beautiful pictures, I won't look at the mountains. I will keep my eyes on Jesus and the book. Is it possible to choose?

Ah, no. Is it possible to choose. Pain or pleasure?

No, I mean is it possible to follow the thought... En Francais (In French) Ah! Wait, sir, look what you are asking. First let us see the exact state - pleasure - desire, thought, pleasure, pain.

And thought is always demanding pleasure and yet it is creating pain. Right? I think...

I mean, there is the thought of sexual pleasure, thinking about it, demanding it and being frustrated, and then anger, jealousy - which is the pain. Right? So shall the human life be spent in these opposites?

What will you do? That's your problem now. That's the problem.

Now how will you deal with it? What will you do? Please sir, do... Let's play this.

There is nobody to tell you what to do - right? - no specialist, no authority, no gurus, nobody. How will you answer this question?

How will you go beyond it? (In French) That means what? (In French) No, no.

No, no. No, sir. No, no.

I am not talking of that. I am saying how will you solve this pleasure and pain? It's your baby, it's left in your hands.

How will you solve it? It has nothing to do with me - it is yours. How will you solve this?

(In French) Sir, you are not observing in yourself, if I may point out. Watch it in yourself, sir. There is this principle going on inside, the pleasure and the pain.

How will you deal with this? By being attentive. Attentive to what?

To what is around you. You don't go farther than what you have... I think either you can say yes to pleasure and be ready to pay the price of pain for it, or you try to renounce the both of them.

How can you renounce both of them? All that is an intellectual conception. I think you can.

You can say, I would like to have peace, and I know that you can have peace, you don't have to look for desire if you... Therefore you won't look at a tree? You won't look at the moon and the first, you know, slip of the moon?

You can look at the moon without desiring it. That's fairly easy, madame. The moon is very far away.

(Laughter) But I see something very nice in front of me and I want it. No you don't... You are not facing this thing. (In French) You have to ask yourself why... (inaudible) We said that, how pain arises is fairly clear - thought.

Thought. Thought thinks about something which has given pleasure and goes on thinking about it, and sustains the pleasure. Right?

Thought thinking of some danger that you have had, thinks about it, fear comes into it. It's clear. What will you do, sirs?

Not think about it. Then how will you stop thinking? You see, you are not... You are just speculating, you don't feel it.

You have to solve it, you see. You are playing with words. I don't want to live between hate and love.

Right? Hate being pain, and love, so-called love, being pleasure. I don't want to live battling between these two for the rest of my life.

So I must find some means of understanding this whole thing. What shall I do? Come on, sirs, let's discuss it.

I think it's a question of... (In French) Who is saying all this? Who is saying all this? (In French) But sir... (In French) Yes, sir.

But who is saying it is an illusion? (In French) But sir, you read something, you mean to say that stops you... that helps you to understand this whole thing deeply and are free of this principle of pain and - pain? No, you don't get this, sir.

All right sir, let's go into it. May we go into it? Let's go into...

Yes, sir? So pleasure has a special... is a sensation. During this, and seeing that it is probably pain, it wakes me up a little, I am aware of it, when I feel it, when I am aware that I feel it.

Pleasure? Yes. Don't you feel the same when you are aware of pain?

Yes. Then what? Don't be aware of it?

No. It wakes me. I don't know how to put it.

It wakes you up, this feeling. I don't quite understand this, sir, sorry. It wakes you up, this feeling, this sensation of pleasure or pain.

And you look at it, you are aware of it. It's neither pleasure nor pain. Is he saying sir, that when you are aware of pleasure it is no longer pleasure, there is no longer pain, because... You are saying, are you, sir, to be aware at the moment of pleasure and pain?

Yes. Not by intention, just... Just to be aware of it. Yes.

Neither discarding it, nor rejecting it. Yes. Nor resisting it, nor inviting it.

Just to be aware. Right? Have you done it?

It happens. Yes. I am not being cynical, sir, please.

I am just saying, have you done it? If you have then you know what it means to be aware. That is, to be aware without censor, without judgement, without choice.

Right? That is to look without any choice. Right?

Which means what? Looking at this as a fact. As a fact, yes.

No, then what happens? Go on! You see... (In French) Sir, look, I have pleasure and pain.

I have learnt now the trick of being aware. Right? A trick.

So I know now what to do. Sir, once you become aware that there is pleasure and pain, you just live with this awareness. And so you are quite conscious that when pain or pleasure comes, you are just aware of them and you don't do nothing about them.

Just understand them, and you don't go into them without knowing what you are doing. Sir, he said just now, sir, please, he said, if you are aware another thing happens. Right?

You are not for nor against. Yes. Now, you have told me that.

I have learnt a trick. Right? Next time I have pleasure I know it is going to bring pain, therefore I am going to be aware.

Look what has happened to me, what has happened to the mind. You are following what I am... If I am aware, yes, therefore I am unaware.

Go into it, sir, you are not following it. I have learnt a clever trick of not suffering. Right?

And what has happened to me? I am still as stupid as before. Now I have added a new trick.

It's like a circus. Right? And there I am.

Is that what pleasure and pain, is that all that it means? That I have learnt a trick not to suffer. Are we...

When I say I don't want to live between pleasure and pain, this is already another desire created out of the imagination that there is a state of mind... Yes, sir, quite right. Where this is not the case.

But seeing this, totally seeing this state of mind, this is awareness. (Inaudible) But just to say I don't want to live between pleasure and pain doesn't... I am just pointing out, sir, the danger of learning a new trick.

You follow? That's all. I am not saying it is right or wrong.

That I have learnt now how to meet pain. I won't go to church, I won't escape, I'll just become aware of it, a fact, and I am going to become aware. I am aware, and it disappears.

Right? At the end of... and then what? It doesn't disappear.

But if you are not aware all the time, it is coming back. So I have to learn that trick too. So I have to learn how to be aware all the time so as not to suffer.

Which means not to have any pleasure either. Right? I can't put away one without the other.

I must put both away. I don't know if you are meeting all this. So what shall I do?

I am not going to learn any tricks because that is too stupid. I want to find out how to deal with a living thing. I don't know if... A living thing.

Pleasure is a living thing; pain is a living thing. And if I have learnt some clever way of looking at it, I approach it with a dead mind. So, I have learnt for a living thing I must also be alive to look at it, not learn a dead trick.

Right? Now how shall I meet this thing? - pleasure and pain.

Not through trick. Right? So I have to learn about it because I have to learn about a living thing, not a dead thing.

So, can my mind... can the mind learn about a living thing? And it can only learn about a living thing if it is not dead. Right?

Are you following? So, when there is a conclusion that I must be aware, then it is dead. Any form of conclusion is to destroy the mind.

Right? Then it is not learning. Then it is not learning.

So I watch my - I see the truth of that. I say, 'By Jove, any form of conclusion dulls the mind. Have I conclusions?'

Have I conclusions? I have and I say, 'I must be aware'. So I am watching.

Have I any conclusions, any beliefs - which are all conclusions - any conceptual ideology? So what has happened? Watch it, sir, look.

Desire, pain and pleasure; then somebody said, 'Be aware of it, old boy, it will stop it', and I nearly swallowed that hook. You follow? And I say, 'By Jove, see the danger of that'.

So, and I see for a living thing I must have a very active mind, not a dull mind, not a dull feeling, or a habitual feeling. And have I habitual feelings? You follow, how step by step I have gone to find out that I have got habitual, traditional feelings.

Which dull the mind, therefore I don't understand pleasure and pain. I wonder if you are understanding all this. So now I am going to learn about myself.

I am not concerned about pleasure and pain. You understand now? I am concerned to see if there is any part of this whole being, which is the 'me', is dead, dull, stupid, not alive, has come to conclusions, and remains with those conclusions.

So I am learning about myself now. I don't know if you are following. Desire, pleasure, pain, the trick of awareness, how the mind nearly caught in it, and therefore through all that I have learnt that I must look at myself to see if there is any part of me that is dead.

Isn't that another trick? Is it? Learning - learning isn't a trick.

I am learning as I go along. Trick is something which I accept, a formula, and apply that formula in order to get rid of something. So this is not a trick because I am learning.

I am learning about myself, upon which so many tricks have been played. Right, sirs? (In French) Wait.

So I want to learn about myself. Am I frightened to learn about myself? To see what I am, am I frightened?

Why am I frightened? Watch it, sir. Why am I frightened?