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Today, a development in an issue that's been in the headlines of the British press all summer - Jewish leaders there have accused the opposition Labour Party of harboring anti-Semitism within its ranks. Now, the party's leadership has agreed to adopt an international definition of anti-Semitism after months of internal struggle. To explain the significance of today's action, we're joined by NPR's Frank Langfitt in London. Hey there, Frank.

today a development in an issue that's been in the, headlines of the british press all summer - jewish leaders there have accused; the opposition; labour party, of harboring anti-semitism within its ranks now the party's. leadership has agreed to adopt an international definition of anti-semitism after months of internal. struggle to explain the. significance of today's action we're joined by npr's frank langfitt in london hey there

Today a development in an issue that's been in the headlines of the British press all. summer - Jewish leaders there have accused, the. opposition Labour Party. of harboring, anti-Semitism within its ranks Now the party's leadership has agreed to, adopt, an international definition of anti-Semitism after months of internal struggle To explain the. significance of today's action we're. joined by NPR's Frank Langfitt in London Hey there

today, a development in an issue that's been in the headlines of the british press all summer - jewish leaders there have accused the opposition labour party of harboring anti-semitism within its ranks. now, the party's leadership has agreed to adopt an international definition of anti-semitism after months of internal struggle. to explain the significance of today's action, we're joined by npr's frank langfitt in london. hey there, frank.

Hey, Audie.

hey

Hey

hey, audie.

So how did a definition of anti-Semitism blow up in British politics?

so how did a definition of anti-semitism blow up in british,

So how did a definition of anti-Semitism blow up in British

so how did a definition of anti-semitism blow up in british politics?

Well, the Labour Party was hesitating to endorse the definition. But the real sticking point was examples of what you can't say. So, for instance, the definition sort of said you couldn't say that Israel was a racist endeavor, and this could have been used - can be used to punish Labour Party members who say things that violate the definition. Now, Labour leaders, they were especially worried that this could curtail legitimate criticism of Israeli policy. And in some ways, the bigger picture here is this was pitting a fear of racist rhetoric against concerns about, you know, curtailing free speech.

well the labour party was hesitating to endorse the definition but. the real sticking point was examples of what you can't say so for instance, the, definition sort of said you couldn't say that israel was a racist endeavor and this could have been used - can be used to punish. labour party members who say things that violate the, definition now labour leaders they were especially worried that this could curtail legitimate criticism of israeli policy and. in some ways the, bigger picture here is this was pitting a fear of racist, rhetoric against concerns about you know curtailing free

Well the Labour Party was hesitating to endorse the definition But the real sticking, point was examples of what you can't say. So for instance the definition sort of said you couldn't say that Israel; was a racist endeavor and this could have, been used. - can be used to punish Labour Party members who say things that violate the definition Now Labour leaders they were especially worried that this could curtail, legitimate criticism. of Israeli policy And, in some ways the. bigger picture, here is this; was pitting, a fear of racist rhetoric against concerns about you know curtailing free

well, the labour party was hesitating to endorse the definition. but the real sticking point was examples of what you can't say. so, for instance, the definition sort of said you couldn't say that israel was a racist endeavor, and this could have been used - can be used to punish labour party members who say things that violate the definition. now, labour leaders, they were especially worried that this could curtail legitimate criticism of israeli policy. and in some ways, the bigger picture here is this was pitting a fear of racist rhetoric against concerns about, you know, curtailing free speech.

And first some background here, we know that hate speech laws in the U.K. differ from the U.S., right?

and first some background here we, know that hate speech laws in the u.k differ from the

And first some background here we know that. hate speech laws in the U.K differ from the

and first some background here, we know that hate speech laws in the u.k. differ from the u.s., right?

Absolutely. One of the things is according to The Times newspaper, police here are actually looking at some alleged cases in the Labour Party to see if they violate hate speech laws.

absolutely one of the things is according to the times newspaper police here are actually looking; at some alleged cases in the labour party to see if they violate hate speech

Absolutely One of. the; things, is according to The Times newspaper police here. are actually looking at some alleged cases in the Labour Party. to see if they violate hate speech

absolutely. one of the things is according to the times newspaper, police here are actually looking at some alleged cases in the labour party to see if they violate hate speech laws.

So why have Jewish leaders focused their attacks on the leader of the party, Jeremy Corbyn?

so why have jewish leaders focused their attacks on the leader of the party jeremy,

So why have Jewish leaders focused their attacks on the. leader of the party Jeremy

so why have jewish leaders focused their attacks on the leader of the party, jeremy corbyn?

Well, they say under Corbyn that Labour hasn't cracked down on online anti-Semitism. In the party, he's also, they say, shared public platforms with anti-Semites. There's a lot of examples of that - or some examples of that. And Corbyn, though, I should say, has repeatedly said there's no place for anti-Semitism in the party. He admits it's a problem. But many Jewish groups are also uncomfortable with him because he's long supported the Palestinian cause. Now, there were three leading Jewish newspapers. This was back in July. They said a Corbyn-led government posed an existential threat to Jews here in the United Kingdom. And in some, you basically had Jewish leaders going to war this summer against a man that they're afraid is going to end up in 10 Downing Street.

well they say, under. corbyn that labour. hasn't cracked down on online anti-semitism in, the party he's also they say shared public platforms with anti-semites there's, a lot of examples of that - or some examples of that. and corbyn though i should say has, repeatedly said there's no place for anti-semitism in the. party he, admits, it's a, problem but many jewish. groups are also, uncomfortable with him because he's long supported the palestinian cause, now there were three leading jewish newspapers; this was back in july they said a corbyn-led government posed an existential threat, to jews. here in the united kingdom, and in some you basically had jewish leaders going to war this summer against a man that they're afraid is going to end up in 10 downing,

Well they say under Corbyn that Labour hasn't cracked down, on online. anti-Semitism In the party he's also they say shared public platforms. with anti-Semites; There's a lot of examples of that, - or some examples of that And Corbyn though I should say has repeatedly said there's no place for. anti-Semitism in the party He admits it's. a problem But many Jewish, groups are also, uncomfortable with him because, he's. long supported the Palestinian cause Now there were three leading Jewish newspapers This was back in July They said a Corbyn-led government posed an existential threat to Jews here in the; United Kingdom And in some you basically had Jewish, leaders going to war this summer against a man that they're afraid is going to end up in 10 Downing

well, they say under corbyn that labour hasn't cracked down on online anti-semitism. in the party, he's also, they say, shared public platforms with anti-semites. there's a lot of examples of that - or some examples of that. and corbyn, though, i should say, has repeatedly said there's no place for anti-semitism in the party. he admits it's a problem. but many jewish groups are also uncomfortable with him because he's long supported the palestinian cause. now, there were three leading jewish newspapers. this was back in july. they said a corbyn-led government posed an existential threat to jews here in the united kingdom. and in some, you basically had jewish leaders going to war this summer against a man that they're afraid is going to end up in 10 downing street.

So what's their reaction now after Labour's taken action?

so what's their reaction now after labour's taken

So what's their reaction, now after Labour's taken,

so what's their reaction now after labour's taken action?

Well, there's some people who are glad to see Labour accepting the definition, but others are disappointed. And the reason is there's this caveat. Labour has said that the definition would not in any way undermine the freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians. Now, one Jewish leader called this free speech clause a right to be racist protection. And earlier this afternoon, I was talking to Daniel Sugarman. He's a reporter with The Jewish Chronicle here, and here's how he put it.

well. there's some people who are glad to see labour accepting the definition, but others are disappointed and the reason is there's this caveat labour has said that. the definition would not. in any way undermine the, freedom of expression on israel or the rights of palestinians now one jewish leader called. this free speech clause, a right to be racist protection and earlier, this afternoon i. was talking to daniel sugarman he's a, reporter with the jewish chronicle here, and here's how he put

Well there's some people who are glad to see Labour accepting the. definition but others, are disappointed And the reason is there's; this, caveat Labour has said that the definition would not in any way undermine, the freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians Now one, Jewish leader called this, free speech clause a right to be racist protection And earlier this afternoon I was. talking to Daniel Sugarman He's a reporter with The Jewish Chronicle here and here's how he put

well, there's some people who are glad to see labour accepting the definition, but others are disappointed. and the reason is there's this caveat. labour has said that the definition would not in any way undermine the freedom of expression on israel or the rights of palestinians. now, one jewish leader called this free speech clause a right to be racist protection. and earlier this afternoon, i was talking to daniel sugarman. he's a reporter with the jewish chronicle here, and here's how he put it.

The Jewish community will not be satisfied. The Jewish community will believe that once again the Labour Party has gone about this in bad faith.

the jewish community will not be satisfied the. jewish community will believe that once again the labour party has. gone about this in bad

The Jewish community will not be satisfied The Jewish community will believe that. once again the Labour Party has gone about this in bad

the jewish community will not be satisfied. the jewish community will believe that once again the labour party has gone about this in bad faith.

Frank, while the Labour Party has been tangled up in this debate, you have Prime Minister Theresa May dealing with Brexit, dealing with basically an open revolt of senior members in her ruling Conservative Party. Has this hurt Labour's ability to be effective as opposition?

frank while the labour party has been tangled up in this debate you have prime minister theresa may dealing with brexit dealing with basically an open revolt of senior members in her ruling conservative party has this hurt labour's ability to be effective as,

Frank while the Labour, Party has been tangled up in this debate you have Prime. Minister Theresa May dealing with Brexit, dealing with basically an open revolt of senior members in her ruling Conservative, Party Has this hurt Labour's ability to be effective as

frank, while the labour party has been tangled up in this debate, you have prime minister theresa may dealing with brexit, dealing with basically an open revolt of senior members in her ruling conservative party. has this hurt labour's ability to be effective as opposition?

Well, I don't think you've seen much of a fall in the poll for Labour, so I don't think that it's yet resonating among the populace, but it's definitely seen as a lost opportunity. This would have been a great time this summer to offer an alternative to the Conservative Party as they flail about on Brexit. And, you know, Labour had been surging earlier. It had done much better last summer in an election. And so, yeah, this was a really good chance to score some points and also grab the attention of voters.

well i don't think you've seen much of a fall in the poll. for, labour so i don't think that it's yet. resonating among the populace, but it's definitely seen as a lost opportunity this would have been a great time this summer to offer an alternative to the conservative party as they flail about on brexit and you know labour had been surging earlier it had done, much better last summer, in an election and so. yeah this was a really good chance to score some; points and also grab the attention of

Well I don't think you've seen much of a fall in. the poll for Labour so I don't think that it's yet, resonating among the populace but it's, definitely seen as a lost opportunity. This would have been a great time this; summer to. offer an alternative to the Conservative Party as they flail, about on Brexit And you know Labour had been surging earlier It had done much better last summer in an election And so yeah this was a, really good chance to score some points and also grab the attention of

well, i don't think you've seen much of a fall in the poll for labour, so i don't think that it's yet resonating among the populace, but it's definitely seen as a lost opportunity. this would have been a great time this summer to offer an alternative to the conservative party as they flail about on brexit. and, you know, labour had been surging earlier. it had done much better last summer in an election. and so, yeah, this was a really good chance to score some points and also grab the attention of voters.

They can certainly argue it. They've tried to argue that already. And four federal judges - two appointed by Republican presidents, two appointed by Democratic presidents - have completely and utterly rejected all of those arguments by the federal government. Moreover, we're entitled as this case goes forward to discovery.

they can. certainly argue it they've tried to argue that already and four federal judges - two appointed by republican presidents two appointed by democratic presidents - have completely and utterly rejected all of those arguments. by, the federal government moreover we're entitled as this, case goes forward to

They can; certainly argue it They've. tried to argue that already And four federal judges - two appointed by Republican presidents two appointed by Democratic presidents - have completely and utterly rejected all of those arguments by the federal government Moreover; we're entitled as this case goes forward to

they can certainly argue it. they've tried to argue that already. and four federal judges - two appointed by republican presidents, two appointed by democratic presidents - have completely and utterly rejected all of those arguments by the federal government. moreover, we're entitled as this case goes forward to discovery.

What that means is we can take depositions of administration officials. We can ask for documents and emails to get at the intent behind this executive order. And we believe that will only strengthen our case as this moves forward.

what that, means is we can take depositions of administration officials we can ask for documents and emails to get at the intent behind; this executive order and we believe that will only strengthen our case as this moves

What that means is we can take depositions of. administration officials We can ask for documents and emails to get at the intent behind this executive order And we believe, that will only strengthen our, case as this moves

what that means is we can take depositions of administration officials. we can ask for documents and emails to get at the intent behind this executive order. and we believe that will only strengthen our case as this moves forward.

You have argued specifically that the executive order would have an economic impact on the state of Washington. How so?

you have argued specifically that the executive order would have, an economic impact on the state of washington how

You have argued. specifically that the executive order would have an economic impact on the state of Washington. How

you have argued specifically that the executive order would have an economic impact on the state of washington. how so?

Oh, in numerous ways. So for example, we have now dozens of declarations. And they go to issues like our universities and colleges who no longer get the benefit of students and faculty who come to their - to our universities and colleges.

oh in numerous ways so for example we have now dozens, of declarations and they go to issues, like, our universities and colleges who no longer get the benefit, of students and faculty who, come to their - to our. universities and

Oh in numerous ways So for example we have now dozens of declarations And they go to issues like our universities and, colleges who no longer get the benefit of students and faculty who come to, their - to our universities. and

oh, in numerous ways. so for example, we have now dozens of declarations. and they go to issues like our universities and colleges who no longer get the benefit of students and faculty who come to their - to our universities and colleges.

But wasn't there an exemption for foreign students?

but. wasn't there an exemption for foreign

But wasn't there an exemption for foreign

but wasn't there an exemption for foreign students?

There was an exemption in the original executive order and in the current one. But there are strong hurdles to achieve any of those exemptions. And that actually remains in place. So the exemption did not save the original executive order from judicial scrutiny and actually being rejected by the federal courts. And we don't think that the revised order changes anything in that regard.

there was an exemption in the original executive order and in the current, one but there are strong hurdles to achieve any. of those exemptions and that actually remains in place so the exemption did not. save the original executive order from judicial scrutiny. and actually being rejected; by the federal courts and we don't think that, the revised order. changes anything in that

There was an exemption, in the original, executive order and in the current one; But there are strong hurdles to. achieve any of those exemptions And that actually remains in place So the exemption did, not. save the original executive order. from judicial scrutiny and. actually. being rejected by; the federal courts And we don't think that the revised order changes anything in that

there was an exemption in the original executive order and in the current one. but there are strong hurdles to achieve any of those exemptions. and that actually remains in place. so the exemption did not save the original executive order from judicial scrutiny and actually being rejected by the federal courts. and we don't think that the revised order changes anything in that regard.

And so you're arguing that because students can't come from abroad, that has an economic impact on your universities.

and so, you're arguing that because students can't come from abroad that has an economic impact on, your

And, so you're arguing that because students can't come from abroad that has, an economic impact. on your

and so you're arguing that because students can't come from abroad, that has an economic impact on your universities.

That is one piece of our argument. So for example, the tuition that our colleges and universities receive. We had declarations from more than a hundred businesses talking about the negative impacts on their businesses, their ability to recruit and retain top-level talent, the adverse impact on their employees.

that is one. piece of our, argument so for example the tuition that our colleges and universities receive we had declarations from more than a hundred. businesses talking about the negative, impacts on their businesses their ability to recruit and retain top-level talent the adverse impact on their

That is one piece of our argument So for, example the tuition that our colleges and universities receive We had declarations from more than a hundred businesses talking about the negative impacts on their businesses; their ability to recruit and retain top-level talent the adverse impact on their

that is one piece of our argument. so for example, the tuition that our colleges and universities receive. we had declarations from more than a hundred businesses talking about the negative impacts on their businesses, their ability to recruit and retain top-level talent, the adverse impact on their employees.

So yes, we have dozens of declarations going to the economic harm to the people of the state of Washington and moreover the harm of individuals who can no longer travel there, they cannot have their relatives come to visit them. We have declarations from individuals as well.

so yes we have dozens of declarations going to the economic harm to the people of the state of washington and moreover the harm of individuals who can. no longer travel there they cannot have their relatives come to visit them we have declarations from individuals as

So yes we have dozens of declarations going to the. economic harm to the people of the state of Washington and moreover the harm of individuals. who can no, longer travel. there they cannot have their relatives come to visit them We have declarations from individuals; as

so yes, we have dozens of declarations going to the economic harm to the people of the state of washington and moreover the harm of individuals who can no longer travel there, they cannot have their relatives come to visit them. we have declarations from individuals as well.

But forgive me, I thought another exemption was to allow for familial connections, so if someone wants their mother to visit from Iran that an exemption would be made for that.

but forgive me i thought another exemption was to. allow for, familial. connections so if; someone wants their mother. to visit from iran that, an exemption would be made for.

But forgive me I thought another exemption was to allow for familial connections so if someone. wants their mother to visit from Iran that an exemption would be. made for.

but forgive me, i thought another exemption was to allow for familial connections, so if someone wants their mother to visit from iran that an exemption would be made for that.

That's correct. And I believe under the current executive order, you have to show that you are not a threat to national security. And again, there was an exemption process under the original executive order.

that's correct and, i, believe under the current executive order you have to show, that you are not a threat to national security. and again there was an exemption process under the original executive

That's correct And, I believe under the current executive order you have to show that you are not a threat to national security And again there was an exemption process under the original executive

that's correct. and i believe under the current executive order, you have to show that you are not a threat to national security. and again, there was an exemption process under the original executive order.

That still did not save this executive order, the original, from judicial review and from the federal courts unanimously rejecting the original executive order. The fact that it's essentially unchanged for the revised executive order, I'm confident it will not change the analysis from the federal courts.

that still did not save this executive order the original. from judicial review. and from. the federal courts unanimously rejecting the original executive order, the fact that it's essentially unchanged for the. revised executive order, i'm confident it will not change the analysis from the federal

That still did not save this executive order the, original from judicial review and from; the federal courts unanimously rejecting the original executive order The fact that it's essentially unchanged for the revised executive order I'm confident it will not change the analysis from the federal,

that still did not save this executive order, the original, from judicial review and from the federal courts unanimously rejecting the original executive order. the fact that it's essentially unchanged for the revised executive order, i'm confident it will not change the analysis from the federal courts.

So this thing is supposed to take hold on March 16. So you have a tight timeframe here.

so this thing, is, supposed to take hold on march 16. so you have a tight timeframe

So this thing is supposed to take hold on March 16. So you have a tight timeframe

so this thing is supposed to take hold on march 16. so you have a tight timeframe here.

Yeah. We've been operating under a tight time frame for a long time. So we put together our original lawsuit over a weekend basically and had it struck down within a week. So yes, things are moving quickly. That's not unusual when you have a timeline like this and a deadline coming up. Courts are used to that. And so we're looking forward to making our case.

yeah we've been, operating under a tight time frame for a long, time so we put together our original lawsuit over a weekend, basically and, had it struck down within a week; so yes things are moving quickly that's not. unusual when you have a timeline like this and a. deadline coming up courts are used, to that and so we're looking forward to making our

Yeah We've been operating under a tight time frame for a long time So we put together our original lawsuit over, a weekend basically and had it struck down within a week So yes things are moving quickly. That's not unusual. when you have a. timeline like this and a deadline coming up Courts are used to that And so we're looking forward to making our

yeah. we've been operating under a tight time frame for a long time. so we put together our original lawsuit over a weekend basically and had it struck down within a week. so yes, things are moving quickly. that's not unusual when you have a timeline like this and a deadline coming up. courts are used to that. and so we're looking forward to making our case.

Bob Ferguson is the attorney general of Washington State. Thanks so much for talking with us.

bob ferguson, is the, attorney general of; washington state thanks so much for talking with

Bob Ferguson is the attorney general of Washington State Thanks so much for talking with

bob ferguson is the attorney general of washington state. thanks so much for talking with us.

Thank you, Rachel, really appreciate it.

thank you rachel really appreciate

Thank you Rachel really appreciate

thank you, rachel, really appreciate it.

SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow.

science friday i'm ira,

SCIENCE FRIDAY I'm Ira.

science friday. i'm ira flatow.

Art and science this hour. We're going to be focusing in on art historians and scientists, and later we're going to talk about the new science play "Phallacy" that's opening up here in New York.

art and science this; hour we're going, to be focusing in on art historians; and scientists and later we're going to talk about the new science play "phallacy" that's opening up here in new

Art and science this hour We're going to be focusing in on, art historians and, scientists and. later we're going to talk about the new science play "Phallacy" that's opening up here in New,

art and science this hour. we're going to be focusing in on art historians and scientists, and later we're going to talk about the new science play "phallacy" that's opening up here in new york.

putting the tools of math, science and engineering to the job of helping art historians and museum curators authenticate works of art. Some works of art are suspected of being forgeries, good copies, yet nonetheless they are not the originals. Here's a case in point: a van Gogh painting, still life, "Vase With 15 Sunflowers," bought at auction for nearly $40 million and later thought by some experts to be a forgery. How do you tell?

putting the tools of math science and engineering to the job of helping art historians and museum curators authenticate works of art some works of art are suspected of being forgeries good copies yet nonetheless they, are not the originals here's a case in point: a. van gogh painting still life "vase with, 15 sunflowers" bought at auction for nearly $40 million and later; thought by some experts to be, a; forgery how do you

putting the tools of, math. science and engineering to the job of helping art historians. and museum curators authenticate works of art Some works of. art. are suspected of being forgeries good copies yet nonetheless they, are. not the originals Here's a case, in point: a van Gogh painting still life "Vase With 15 Sunflowers" bought at auction for nearly $40 million and later thought by some experts to be a forgery How do you

putting the tools of math, science and engineering to the job of helping art historians and museum curators authenticate works of art. some works of art are suspected of being forgeries, good copies, yet nonetheless they are not the originals. here's a case in point: a van gogh painting, still life, "vase with 15 sunflowers," bought at auction for nearly $40 million and later thought by some experts to be a forgery. how do you tell?

Well, a newly formed collaboration might be able to help, and my next guest who is an engineer brought together computer scientists, engineers and mathematicians with art historians and museum curators to show how a scientist's bag of tools can help quantify characteristics of a typical van Gogh painting. The scientists analyzed 101 digital images of van Gogh's paintings - many authentic, some known forgeries and some of questionable origin - looking for some sort of quantifiable characteristics that might be able to separate a real van Gogh from the fakes.

well a. newly formed collaboration might be able to help and my next guest who is an engineer brought together computer scientists engineers and mathematicians with art historians and. museum curators to. show how a scientist's bag of tools can help quantify characteristics of a typical van gogh painting. the scientists analyzed 101 digital images of van gogh's paintings - many authentic some known forgeries and some of questionable origin - looking for some sort of quantifiable characteristics that might be able to separate a real van gogh from the

Well a newly formed collaboration might be. able to help and my next guest who is an engineer brought together computer scientists engineers and mathematicians with art historians and museum curators to show how a scientist's bag of tools can help quantify characteristics, of a typical van Gogh painting The. scientists analyzed 101 digital images of van Gogh's paintings - many authentic some known forgeries; and some of questionable origin - looking for some sort of quantifiable characteristics that might be able to separate a real van Gogh from the

well, a newly formed collaboration might be able to help, and my next guest who is an engineer brought together computer scientists, engineers and mathematicians with art historians and museum curators to show how a scientist's bag of tools can help quantify characteristics of a typical van gogh painting. the scientists analyzed 101 digital images of van gogh's paintings - many authentic, some known forgeries and some of questionable origin - looking for some sort of quantifiable characteristics that might be able to separate a real van gogh from the fakes.

For instance, features in the brush strokes described by art experts as either course or short or choppy or yarn-like - did it work? Can image processing tools help authenticate works of art? Joining me now to talk about it is Rick Johnson. He's professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Cornell University in Ithaca. He joins us today from Amsterdam. Good evening and welcome to the program, Dr. Johnson.

for instance features in the brush, strokes described by art, experts, as either course or short or, choppy or yarn-like - did. it work? can image processing tools help authenticate works of art? joining me now to talk about it is rick johnson he's professor in, the school of electrical and computer engineering at cornell university in ithaca he joins us today from amsterdam good evening and welcome to the. program, dr

For instance features in the brush strokes described by art. experts as either course or short or choppy or yarn-like - did it work? Can image, processing tools help authenticate works of art? Joining, me, now to talk about it. is Rick Johnson He's professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Cornell, University in Ithaca He joins us today from, Amsterdam Good evening and welcome to, the program Dr,

for instance, features in the brush strokes described by art experts as either course or short or choppy or yarn-like - did it work? can image processing tools help authenticate works of art? joining me now to talk about it is rick johnson. he's professor in the school of electrical and computer engineering at cornell university in ithaca. he joins us today from amsterdam. good evening and welcome to the program, dr. johnson.

Hi. Thank you.

hi thank

Hi, Thank

hi. thank you.

So tell us what happened. How do art historians - let's go from the beginning - typically decide whether a painting is authentic?

so tell us what happened how do art historians - let's go, from the beginning. - typically decide whether a painting is

So, tell us what happened How, do art historians - let's go from the beginning - typically. decide whether a. painting is

so tell us what happened. how do art historians - let's go from the beginning - typically decide whether a painting is authentic?

Well, I can only tell you that from my observations, but for the last year and a half that I've been organizing this workshop, I've also been talking with art historians and conservators. And one of the first things they do in looking at a painting is tell which parts have been repaired or damaged since. And then among those that are left, they use their knowledge in a way that's not apparent to an outsider.

well i can, only tell you, that from my observations but for the last year. and a half that i've been organizing this workshop i've also been talking with art historians and conservators and one of the first things they do in looking at a painting is tell which parts have been repaired or damaged since and then among those that are left they use their knowledge in a way that's not apparent to an

Well I can only tell you that from my observations but for the last year and a half that I've been organizing, this workshop I've also been talking with art historians and conservators And one of the first things they do in looking at a painting is tell which parts have been repaired or damaged since And then among those that are left they use their knowledge in a way that's not apparent to an;

well, i can only tell you that from my observations, but for the last year and a half that i've been organizing this workshop, i've also been talking with art historians and conservators. and one of the first things they do in looking at a painting is tell which parts have been repaired or damaged since. and then among those that are left, they use their knowledge in a way that's not apparent to an outsider.

They extract a certain set of features, and then with their knowledge of the artist - those features might be a particular brush stroke or the way a particular ear is done or how hands or fingernails are done - and from their knowledge of how the artists normally would deal with that issue, they'll make a judgment, a decision about whether this is by this artist or a different artist.

they extract a certain set of features, and then with their knowledge. of, the artist - those features might be a particular brush stroke or the, way a, particular ear is done or how hands or fingernails are done - and from their knowledge of how the artists normally would, deal with that issue they'll, make a judgment a decision about whether this is by, this artist or a different

They extract a certain, set. of features and then with, their knowledge. of, the artist - those features might be a. particular brush stroke or the way a particular ear is done or how hands or fingernails are done - and from their knowledge of how the artists normally would deal with that issue they'll make a judgment. a decision about whether this. is by, this artist. or a different

they extract a certain set of features, and then with their knowledge of the artist - those features might be a particular brush stroke or the way a particular ear is done or how hands or fingernails are done - and from their knowledge of how the artists normally would deal with that issue, they'll make a judgment, a decision about whether this is by this artist or a different artist.

So it means basically making a visual assessment based on the features they're looking at?

so it means basically making a visual assessment based on the features they're looking

So it means basically making a visual assessment based on. the features they're; looking

so it means basically making a visual assessment based on the features they're looking at?

We make it to downtown and drop Elia off at the factory. It looks like just another storefront on a dirty street. We can't go inside. So we wait.

we make it to downtown. and drop; elia off at the factory. it looks like just another storefront on a dirty street we can't, go inside so we

We make it to downtown and drop Elia off at the factory It looks like just another storefront on a dirty. street We can't go inside So we

we make it to downtown and drop elia off at the factory. it looks like just another storefront on a dirty street. we can't go inside. so we wait.

I am innocent. Reade Seligmann is innocent. Collin Finnerty is innocent. Every member of the Duke University lacrosse team is innocent. You have all been told some fantastic lies.

i am innocent reade seligmann is innocent collin finnerty is innocent every member of, the duke university lacrosse team is. innocent you have all, been told some fantastic

I am innocent Reade Seligmann is. innocent Collin. Finnerty is innocent Every member of the Duke University lacrosse, team is. innocent. You have, all. been told some fantastic

i am innocent. reade seligmann is innocent. collin finnerty is innocent. every member of the duke university lacrosse team is innocent. you have all been told some fantastic lies.

Today, we are filing notices of dismissal for all charges against Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans.

today we are filing notices of dismissal for all charges against, reade seligmann, collin finnerty and david

Today we are filing notices of dismissal for all charges against Reade Seligmann Collin Finnerty and David

today, we are filing notices of dismissal for all charges against reade seligmann, collin finnerty and david evans.

Marina Zenovich came into our studios to talk about this ESPN "30 for 30" documentary. And I began by asking her whether people just had this perception that lacrosse players at a big-time university represent a kind of white privilege.

marina, zenovich came into our studios to talk about this espn "30 for 30" documentary and i began by asking her whether people just had this. perception that lacrosse players at a big-time university represent a kind of white

Marina Zenovich came into our studios; to talk about, this ESPN "30 for 30" documentary And I began by asking, her, whether, people just, had this; perception that lacrosse players at, a big-time university represent a kind of; white

marina zenovich came into our studios to talk about this espn "30 for 30" documentary. and i began by asking her whether people just had this perception that lacrosse players at a big-time university represent a kind of white privilege.

I think it's unfair, but people are going to react the way they want to react. I found it fascinating, as a filmmaker, how people had so much judgment, whether they were right or wrong.

i think it's unfair but people are going to. react the way, they, want. to react i found it fascinating as a filmmaker how people had so much judgment whether they were right or

I, think it's unfair but people are going to react the way they want to react I found it. fascinating as a filmmaker how, people had so much, judgment whether they were right or

i think it's unfair, but people are going to react the way they want to react. i found it fascinating, as a filmmaker, how people had so much judgment, whether they were right or wrong.

Was it hard to get people to talk?

was it hard to get people to

Was it hard to get people to

was it hard to get people to talk?

Oh, my God. Are you kidding? I literally would just start writing letters almost as a joke to see how many noes I could get. I have a whole file of noes, and it was just one after another.

oh my god are you. kidding? i literally, would just start writing letters almost as a joke to see how many noes i could get i have a whole file of noes and it was just one after

Oh my God, Are you. kidding? I literally would just start writing letters, almost as a joke to see how, many noes I could, get, I have a whole file of, noes and it was just one after

oh, my god. are you kidding? i literally would just start writing letters almost as a joke to see how many noes i could get. i have a whole file of noes, and it was just one after another.

You got some of the players on the team to talk, but none of the three who were actually charged.

you got some of the, players. on the, team to talk but none, of the three who were actually.

You got some of the players on the team to talk but none of the three who were actually

you got some of the players on the team to talk, but none of the three who were actually charged.

Right.

right.

What did they tell you? Or what was their response to you?

what did, they tell you? or, what was. their response to

What did they tell you? Or what was their response to

what did they tell you? or what was their response to you?

Do you know that I've never spoken to any of them? I fight and fight to get people to talk, but I never reached out to them myself. They knew the film was happening. They knew that I was trying to get them through their lawyers, through their parents. But on some level, I really respected the fact that they just want to move on. It's unfortunate that they will be labeled as the Duke lacrosse boys, but unfortunately, that's what happens.

do you know that i've never spoken to any of them? i fight and fight to get people to talk but i never reached out to, them myself they knew the film, was happening they knew that i; was trying to get them through their lawyers through, their parents but on, some. level i; really respected the fact, that they just want to move on it's unfortunate that, they, will be labeled as the duke lacrosse boys but unfortunately that's what

Do you know. that I've never spoken to any of them? I, fight and fight to get people to, talk but I, never reached out to them myself They, knew the film was happening They knew that I was trying to get them through their lawyers through their parents; But on some level I. really respected the fact that they just want to move, on It's unfortunate that they will be labeled. as, the Duke lacrosse boys but unfortunately that's what

do you know that i've never spoken to any of them? i fight and fight to get people to talk, but i never reached out to them myself. they knew the film was happening. they knew that i was trying to get them through their lawyers, through their parents. but on some level, i really respected the fact that they just want to move on. it's unfortunate that they will be labeled as the duke lacrosse boys, but unfortunately, that's what happens.

I want to play one clip from one of the professors who spoke to you, James Coleman, a criminal law professor at Duke. Let's just listen to a little bit of this.

i; want to play one clip from, one of the professors who, spoke to you james coleman. a criminal law. professor at duke let's just listen to a little bit of

I want to play one clip, from one of the professors who spoke to you James Coleman a criminal law professor at Duke Let's just listen to a. little bit of

i want to play one clip from one of the professors who spoke to you, james coleman, a criminal law professor at duke. let's just listen to a little bit of this.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "FANTASTIC LIES")

(soundbite of documentary "fantastic

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY "FANTASTIC

(soundbite of documentary, "fantastic lies")

People, you know, treated it like a Christmas tree and they put their lights on it and their ornaments to, you now, push other issues that they could connect to it. But this was the wrong case for that. It doesn't support all of these other issues I - that people want to sort of, you know, heap up on it and use it as a platform.

people you know treated it like a christmas tree and they put their lights on it and their ornaments to you now; push other issues that, they could connect, to it but this was the wrong, case for that it doesn't support, all of these other issues i - that people want to sort of you know heap up on, it and use it as a

People you, know treated, it. like a Christmas tree and they put their lights on it and their, ornaments to you now, push other issues that they could. connect to it But this was the wrong case for that It doesn't support all of these other issues I - that people want to sort of you know. heap up on it and use it as a

people, you know, treated it like a christmas tree and they put their lights on it and their ornaments to, you now, push other issues that they could connect to it. but this was the wrong case for that. it doesn't support all of these other issues i - that people want to sort of, you know, heap up on it and use it as a platform.

Say more about the Christmas tree metaphor and what you make of that.

say more about the; christmas tree metaphor and what you make of

Say more about, the Christmas. tree. metaphor and what you, make of

say more about the christmas tree metaphor and what you make of that.

Well, everybody brought to this case what they wanted to bring to it, and that's, I think, a big problem with cases like these. Everyone is coming from their own experience. And I was glad that professor Coleman kind of could explain that because he was in the thick of it.

well everybody brought to this case what, they wanted to bring to it and that's i think a big problem with cases like these everyone is coming from their own experience. and i was glad that professor coleman kind of could explain that because he was in. the thick of

Well everybody brought to this case what they wanted to bring to it and that's I think a big problem with cases like these Everyone is coming from their own experience And I was glad that professor Coleman kind of could explain that because he was in the thick of

well, everybody brought to this case what they wanted to bring to it, and that's, i think, a big problem with cases like these. everyone is coming from their own experience. and i was glad that professor coleman kind of could explain that because he was in the thick of it.

Whose job was it to stop that from happening - to tell people to pause and wait for the truth?

whose job was, it to stop that, from happening - to tell people to pause and wait for the

Whose job was it to stop that from happening - to tell people to pause and wait for the;

whose job was it to stop that from happening - to tell people to pause and wait for the truth?

Well, I think it's our elected officials' - the DA in the case. I mean, you know, everyone looks to the DNA for the truth, you know. But this is a case where he was engaging in serious professional misconduct and was disbarred.

well i think it's our elected officials' - the da in the case i mean you know everyone looks to the dna for the truth you know but this is a case where he was engaging in serious professional misconduct and was

Well I, think it's our elected officials' - the DA in. the case I mean you, know everyone looks to the DNA for the truth you know But this is a case where, he was. engaging in. serious professional misconduct and was

well, i think it's our elected officials' - the da in the case. i mean, you know, everyone looks to the dna for the truth, you know. but this is a case where he was engaging in serious professional misconduct and was disbarred.

I want to play one more clip of tape from the film. It's - you spoke to Dan Okrent who is the former public editor from The New York Times. And here's what he had to say.

i want to play one more clip of tape from the film it's - you, spoke to dan okrent who. is. the former public editor from the new. york times and; here's; what, he had to

I want to play one more clip of tape from the film. It's - you spoke to Dan Okrent who is the former public, editor from The New York Times And. here's what he had to

i want to play one more clip of tape from the film. it's - you spoke to dan okrent who is the former public editor from the new york times. and here's what he had to say.

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY, "FANTASTIC LIES")

(soundbite of documentary. "fantastic

(SOUNDBITE OF DOCUMENTARY "FANTASTIC

(soundbite of documentary, "fantastic lies")

It was male over female. It was rich over poor. It was educated over uneducated. My God, all the things that we know happen in the world coming together in one place And you know, journalists - they start to quiver with a thrill when something like this happens.

it was male. over female it was rich over poor it was educated over. uneducated my god all. the things. that we know happen in the world coming together. in one place and you know journalists - they start to quiver with a, thrill when something, like, this

It was male over female It was rich over poor It was educated over uneducated My God, all the, things that we know happen in the world coming together in one place And you know; journalists - they start to quiver with a thrill when something like, this

it was male over female. it was rich over poor. it was educated over uneducated. my god, all the things that we know happen in the world coming together in one place and you know, journalists - they start to quiver with a thrill when something like this happens.

You do sort of paint a picture of journalists as real - as really failing here.

you do sort of paint a, picture of journalists as real - as really failing

You do sort of. paint a; picture of journalists as real, - as really failing

you do sort of paint a picture of journalists as real - as really failing here.

You know, it started as a sports story, and it became bigger and bigger. And, as I said, it had a DA who was - you know, didn't go on one local radio show. He went on national talk shows acting as if the boys were already guilty. I mean, this all played into this mishandling of this case.

you know it started as a sports story and it became bigger and bigger and as i said it. had. a da who was - you know didn't go. on one local radio show he went on national, talk, shows acting as if the boys were already, guilty i mean this all played into this mishandling, of this

You know it started as a, sports story and it became. bigger and bigger And as I, said it had a DA who was - you know didn't go on one local radio show He went on national talk shows acting as if the boys were already guilty I mean this all played into this mishandling of this

you know, it started as a sports story, and it became bigger and bigger. and, as i said, it had a da who was - you know, didn't go on one local radio show. he went on national talk shows acting as if the boys were already guilty. i mean, this all played into this mishandling of this case.

There was something about, you know, three white men - you know, that the truth being discovered and not being - not having to serve time for a crime they didn't commit. And I just think about, you know, the Innocence Project, which these young men have joined, which is to get wrongly accused people, you know, out of prison. And, you know, I just think about the number of young black men around this country who are serving time in prison for crimes they didn't commit. Did that sort of thing come to mind as you were putting this documentary together?

there was something about, you know three white men - you know that the truth being discovered and not being - not having to serve time for a crime they didn't commit and i just think about you know the innocence project which these young men have joined which. is to get wrongly accused, people you know out of prison and, you know i just think about the number of young black men around this country. who are. serving time in prison for crimes, they didn't commit did that sort. of thing come. to mind as you were putting this documentary

There was something about you know three white men - you know that the truth being discovered; and. not being. - not having to, serve time for a crime they didn't commit And I just think. about you know the Innocence Project which these young men have joined which is to get wrongly accused people you. know out of prison. And you know I just think about the number of young black men around this country who are serving time in prison for crimes they didn't commit, Did that sort of thing come to mind as you were putting this documentary

there was something about, you know, three white men - you know, that the truth being discovered and not being - not having to serve time for a crime they didn't commit. and i just think about, you know, the innocence project, which these young men have joined, which is to get wrongly accused people, you know, out of prison. and, you know, i just think about the number of young black men around this country who are serving time in prison for crimes they didn't commit. did that sort of thing come to mind as you were putting this documentary together?

You know, it did. But what also came to mind is that this film focuses on a case where men were falsely accused and where a DA engaged in serious professional misconduct. But this should not, in any way, detract from the fact that the vast majority of reports of sexual assault are true. And to use this case, the Duke Lacrosse case, as representative of a wider issue would be a profound injustice to the real victims who have the courage to come forward.

you know it did but what also came to mind is that this film focuses, on a case, where men. were falsely accused and where a da engaged in serious professional misconduct but this should not in any way detract from the fact that the vast majority of reports of. sexual assault are true and to use this case the duke lacrosse, case as representative of a wider issue would be a profound injustice to the real victims who have the courage to come

You know it did But what also came to mind is that this film focuses on a case where men were falsely accused and, where. a DA engaged in serious professional misconduct But this should. not in any way detract from the fact that the vast majority of reports of sexual. assault are. true And. to use this case the, Duke. Lacrosse case. as representative of a wider issue would be a profound injustice to the real victims who have the courage to come,

you know, it did. but what also came to mind is that this film focuses on a case where men were falsely accused and where a da engaged in serious professional misconduct. but this should not, in any way, detract from the fact that the vast majority of reports of sexual assault are true. and to use this case, the duke lacrosse case, as representative of a wider issue would be a profound injustice to the real victims who have the courage to come forward.

That was the director Marina Zenovich. Her documentary "Fantastic Lies" airs on ESPN this Sunday night.

that was the, director marina zenovich her, documentary "fantastic lies" airs on espn this sunday

That was the director Marina Zenovich, Her documentary "Fantastic Lies" airs on ESPN this Sunday

that was the director marina zenovich. her documentary "fantastic lies" airs on espn this sunday night.

Earlier this year, Oxford Dictionary announced that its word of 2015 isn't a word at all. Rather, it is the emoji titled, "Face With Tears Of Joy."

earlier this year oxford dictionary announced that its word of 2015 isn't a word at all rather it is the. emoji titled "face with tears of

Earlier this. year Oxford, Dictionary announced that its word of 2015 isn't a word at all Rather it is the emoji titled "Face With Tears Of

earlier this year, oxford dictionary announced that its word of 2015 isn't a word at all. rather, it is the emoji titled, "face with tears of joy."

Now, dictionary publisher Merriam-Webster has come out with their word of the year for 2015, and it's really just part of a word. It's -ism, as in socialism, communism, feminism.

now dictionary publisher merriam-webster has come out with their word of the year for 2015, and it's really just part of a word it's. -ism, as in socialism communism.

Now dictionary publisher Merriam-Webster has come out with their word of the year for 2015, and it's really just part of a word It's, -ism as in socialism communism

now, dictionary publisher merriam-webster has come out with their word of the year for 2015, and it's really just part of a word. it's -ism, as in socialism, communism, feminism.

But this is not exactly a new word, or suffix, as fans of the movie "Miracle On 34th Street" know.

but this is not exactly, a new word, or suffix as. fans of the movie "miracle on 34th

But this is not exactly a, new word or suffix as fans of the movie "Miracle On 34th

but this is not exactly a new word, or suffix, as fans of the movie "miracle on 34th street" know.

(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MIRACLE ON 34TH STREET")

(soundbite. of film "miracle on 34th

(SOUNDBITE, OF FILM. "MIRACLE ON 34TH

(soundbite of film, "miracle on 34th street")

(As Alfred) Yeah, there's a lot of bad -isms floating around this world, but one of the worst is commercialism. Make a buck. Make a buck. Even in Brooklyn, it's the same. Don't care what Christmas stands for. Just make a buck. Make a buck.

(as alfred) yeah there's a lot of bad -isms floating around this world but, one of the worst is commercialism make a buck make a buck even in brooklyn it's the same. don't care. what christmas stands for just make a buck make. a

(As Alfred) Yeah there's a lot of bad -isms, floating around this world. but one of the worst is commercialism Make. a, buck Make a buck Even in Brooklyn it's the same Don't care, what. Christmas stands for Just make a, buck Make a

(as alfred) yeah, there's a lot of bad -isms floating around this world, but one of the worst is commercialism. make a buck. make a buck. even in brooklyn, it's the same. don't care what christmas stands for. just make a buck. make a buck.

OK, commercialism. There also, of course, is the word terrorism, which could sadly explain things.

ok commercialism there also of course is the, word terrorism which could, sadly explain

OK commercialism. There also of course is the word terrorism which could sadly explain

ok, commercialism. there also, of course, is the word terrorism, which could sadly explain things.

Merriam-Webster chooses its word of the year based on what people have looked up the most in 2015.

merriam-webster chooses its word of the year based on what people have, looked up the most in

Merriam-Webster chooses its word of the year based on what people, have looked up the most in

merriam-webster chooses its word of the year based on what people have looked up the most in 2015.

Now, one of the runners-up in 2015 was the word Minion because of, well, you know.

now one of the runners-up in 2015 was the word minion because of well you

Now one of, the runners-up in 2015 was the word Minion because of well you

now, one of the runners-up in 2015 was the word minion because of, well, you know.

(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)

(soundbite of

(SOUNDBITE OF

(soundbite of video)

(As Minions, singing, unintelligible).

(as minions singing

(As Minions singing

(as minions, singing, unintelligible).

(Speaking Spanish).

(speaking

(Speaking

(speaking spanish).

(Speaking Spanish).

(speaking

(Speaking

(speaking spanish).

Lt. Col. NAGL: No, it's not anywhere near enough, but it is absolutely the most we can do while trying to maintain stability in Iraq, which we've just purchased at such a very high price. The long-term answer for success in Afghanistan has to be Afghan troops providing security to the Afghan people. The biggest mistake we've made in Afghanistan, I think, is limiting the growth of the Afghan army, not to the number of troops needed to secure Afghanistan, but to the number of troops Afghanistan could afford to pay. And we're in grave danger right now as a result of those decisions, having an army that is unable to secure the people of Afghanistan and that we aren't able to grow large enough in time to push back the Taliban.

lt. col nagl: no it's not anywhere near enough but it is, absolutely the most, we can do while trying to maintain stability in iraq which we've just purchased at such, a very high price the long-term answer for success in afghanistan has to be afghan troops, providing security to the afghan people the biggest mistake we've made in afghanistan i think, is limiting, the growth of the afghan army. not. to the number of troops needed to secure afghanistan but to, the number of. troops, afghanistan could afford to pay and we're, in grave danger; right now as a result of those decisions having an army that is unable to secure the people of afghanistan and that we aren't able to grow large enough in time, to push back, the

Lt Col NAGL: No it's not anywhere near enough but it is absolutely; the most we can do while trying, to maintain. stability in Iraq which we've just purchased at such a very high, price The long-term answer for success in Afghanistan has to, be Afghan troops providing security to the Afghan people. The biggest mistake we've made in Afghanistan I think is limiting the growth, of the Afghan army not to the. number of troops needed to secure Afghanistan but to. the number of troops Afghanistan could afford to, pay And we're in grave danger right now as a result. of. those decisions having an, army that is unable to secure; the people of Afghanistan and that. we aren't able to grow large enough in. time to push back the

lt. col. nagl: no, it's not anywhere near enough, but it is absolutely the most we can do while trying to maintain stability in iraq, which we've just purchased at such a very high price. the long-term answer for success in afghanistan has to be afghan troops providing security to the afghan people. the biggest mistake we've made in afghanistan, i think, is limiting the growth of the afghan army, not to the number of troops needed to secure afghanistan, but to the number of troops afghanistan could afford to pay. and we're in grave danger right now as a result of those decisions, having an army that is unable to secure the people of afghanistan and that we aren't able to grow large enough in time to push back the taliban.

We want to hear today from people who have served in Afghanistan as, well, primarily with the military, but also as contractors. Give us a call, 800-989-8255; email talk@npr.org. And our guest is retired Lieutenant Colonel John Nagl. One of the things you talk about, one of the tactics that was adopted in Iraq, you urge, should be adopted again in Afghanistan, and that's to put units out with the people. Don't bring them back into bases every night. This was something that was used in Iraq to effect, but in Iraq, it also was the cause of greater casualties.

we want to hear today from people who have served in afghanistan as well primarily with the military but also as. contractors give us a call 800-989-8255; email talk@npr.org and our guest is retired lieutenant colonel john nagl one of the things you talk about one of the tactics that was adopted in iraq you urge should be adopted again in afghanistan and that's to put, units out with the. people don't bring them back into bases every night this was something that was used in iraq to effect but, in iraq it also was the cause of. greater

We want to hear today from people who have served in Afghanistan as well primarily with the military but also as contractors Give us a call 800-989-8255; email, talk@npr.org And; our guest, is retired Lieutenant Colonel John Nagl. One of the, things you talk about, one of. the tactics that was adopted in. Iraq. you urge should be adopted again in Afghanistan. and that's to put, units out with the people Don't bring them back into bases every night This was something that; was used in Iraq to effect but in, Iraq it also was the cause of greater

we want to hear today from people who have served in afghanistan as, well, primarily with the military, but also as contractors. give us a call, 800-989-8255; email talk@npr.org. and our guest is retired lieutenant colonel john nagl. one of the things you talk about, one of the tactics that was adopted in iraq, you urge, should be adopted again in afghanistan, and that's to put units out with the people. don't bring them back into bases every night. this was something that was used in iraq to effect, but in iraq, it also was the cause of greater casualties.

Lt. Col. NAGL: That's correct. So, when troops are gathered together in large forward-operating bases, big super FOBs, we call them, they're very safe. But they aren't able to provide security to the population, and from those super FOBs, often we commuted to war. We drive out to the war, we did war tourism, did a patrol, drove back to the forward operating base, and it was like sticking your hand, your fist, into a bucket of water. When you pulled your fist out of the bucket of water, you couldn't tell that you'd done anything in it. And when we pull out, the insurgents returned to power and returned to control.

lt col, nagl: that's correct so when troops are gathered together in large forward-operating bases big super fobs we, call them they're very safe but they aren't able to provide security to the population and from those super, fobs often we commuted to. war we drive out to the war we did war tourism did; a patrol drove back to the forward operating base and it was like sticking your hand your fist into a bucket of water. when you pulled your fist out of the bucket of water you couldn't. tell that you'd done anything in it and when we, pull out the insurgents returned. to power and returned to.

Lt, Col NAGL: That's correct So when troops are gathered together in large forward-operating bases big super FOBs we call them they're very safe But they; aren't able to provide security to the population, and from those super FOBs often we. commuted to war We drive out to the war, we did war tourism did a patrol drove back to the forward operating base and it was like sticking. your hand your fist into a bucket, of water When, you pulled your fist out of the bucket of water you couldn't tell that you'd done anything in it And when we pull out the insurgents returned to power and returned to

lt. col. nagl: that's correct. so, when troops are gathered together in large forward-operating bases, big super fobs, we call them, they're very safe. but they aren't able to provide security to the population, and from those super fobs, often we commuted to war. we drive out to the war, we did war tourism, did a patrol, drove back to the forward operating base, and it was like sticking your hand, your fist, into a bucket of water. when you pulled your fist out of the bucket of water, you couldn't tell that you'd done anything in it. and when we pull out, the insurgents returned to power and returned to control.

And the way we broke the cycle, broke the strength of the insurgency in Iraq, was by putting American troops, in conjunction with Iraqi troops, in 76 joint security stations spread throughout Baghdad that provided oil spots of security that then spread and created a pocket of security in Baghdad, which is now remarkably more than 880-percent decrease in violence over the past two years in Baghdad as a result of this tactic of protecting the population. It's the same strategy we have to follow in Afghanistan, but we simply don't have enough troops available. Even when we double American troops in Afghanistan, there will still be fewer troops at the end of that doubling, fewer than half the number of troops at the end of that doubling, than there are right now in Iraq.

and the way we broke. the cycle. broke, the strength of the insurgency in iraq was by, putting, american troops in conjunction with, iraqi troops in 76 joint security, stations. spread throughout baghdad that provided oil, spots of security that then spread and created a pocket of. security in baghdad which is now remarkably more than 880-percent decrease in violence over the past two, years in baghdad as. a result of this tactic of protecting the population it's the same strategy we have to follow in, afghanistan. but we simply don't have enough troops available, even when we double american troops in afghanistan there will still be fewer troops at the end of that doubling fewer, than half the number of troops at the end of that doubling than there, are right now in.

And the way. we broke the. cycle broke the strength of the insurgency in Iraq. was by putting American, troops in conjunction with Iraqi troops in 76 joint security stations spread throughout. Baghdad that provided oil spots of security that then spread and created. a pocket of security in Baghdad which is now remarkably more than 880-percent decrease in violence over the past two years in Baghdad as a result of this tactic of protecting the population. It's the same strategy we have to follow in Afghanistan but we simply, don't have enough. troops available Even. when we double American, troops in Afghanistan there will still; be fewer, troops at the. end, of that doubling fewer than half the number of troops at the end of, that; doubling than there. are right now in

and the way we broke the cycle, broke the strength of the insurgency in iraq, was by putting american troops, in conjunction with iraqi troops, in 76 joint security stations spread throughout baghdad that provided oil spots of security that then spread and created a pocket of security in baghdad, which is now remarkably more than 880-percent decrease in violence over the past two years in baghdad as a result of this tactic of protecting the population. it's the same strategy we have to follow in afghanistan, but we simply don't have enough troops available. even when we double american troops in afghanistan, there will still be fewer troops at the end of that doubling, fewer than half the number of troops at the end of that doubling, than there are right now in iraq.

And how many troops do you think you're going to need in Afghanistan to make this strategy work?

and, how many troops do you think you're. going to need in afghanistan to make this strategy

And how many troops do you think. you're going to need in Afghanistan to make this strategy

and how many troops do you think you're going to need in afghanistan to make this strategy work?

Lt. Col. NAGL: So, according to "The Army/Marine Corps Counterinsurgency Field Manual," it takes 20 to 25 counterinsurgents for every 1,000 people in the population. That's about 600,000 troops for all of Afghanistan and...

lt col nagl: so according to "the army/marine. corps counterinsurgency field manual" it takes 20 to 25 counterinsurgents. for every 1,000 people in the population, that's about 600,000 troops for all of afghanistan

Lt Col NAGL: So according to "The Army/Marine Corps Counterinsurgency Field Manual" it takes; 20 to 25 counterinsurgents for every 1,000 people in the population That's about 600,000 troops for all of Afghanistan

lt. col. nagl: so, according to "the army/marine corps counterinsurgency field manual," it takes 20 to 25 counterinsurgents for every 1,000 people in the population. that's about 600,000 troops for all of afghanistan and...

That's not going to happen?

that's not going to

That's not going to

that's not going to happen?

Lt. Col. NAGL: And that can happen, but those aren't going to be American boots. So, I - the Afghan army right now is about 70,000. We've decided to double it; finally, we've decided to double it. It's my belief that we're going to have to double it again. When you get the Afghan army north of 200,000, when you get the Afghan police north of 200,000, with about 100,000 Americans and perhaps a 100,000 Europeans on the ground, Europeans and other internationals on the ground, at that point, the insurgency will truly be in its last throes.

lt col nagl: and that can happen but those aren't, going to be american boots. so i - the afghan army right now is about 70,000. we've decided to double it finally we've decided to double it it's my belief that we're going to have to double it again when you get the afghan army north of 200,000, when, you get the afghan police north of 200,000, with about 100,000 americans and perhaps a 100,000 europeans on the ground europeans and other internationals on the ground at that point. the insurgency will truly be in, its last

Lt Col, NAGL: And that can happen but those aren't going to be American. boots So I - the Afghan army, right now is about 70,000. We've, decided, to double it finally we've decided to double it It's my belief that we're going. to have to. double it again When you get the. Afghan army north, of 200,000, when you. get the Afghan police north of 200,000, with about 100,000 Americans and perhaps a; 100,000 Europeans on the ground Europeans and other internationals on the ground at that point the insurgency will truly be in; its last,

lt. col. nagl: and that can happen, but those aren't going to be american boots. so, i - the afghan army right now is about 70,000. we've decided to double it; finally, we've decided to double it. it's my belief that we're going to have to double it again. when you get the afghan army north of 200,000, when you get the afghan police north of 200,000, with about 100,000 americans and perhaps a 100,000 europeans on the ground, europeans and other internationals on the ground, at that point, the insurgency will truly be in its last throes.

The commander general, David Petraeus, who played such an important part in Iraq, is now the CENTCOM commander. Afghanistan is with his - within his ambit as well, and he has said many of the same things about Afghanistan that he said about Iraq: We cannot capture or kill our way out of this problem.

the commander general david petraeus who played such an important part in iraq is now the centcom commander afghanistan is with his - within his ambit as well and he has said many of the same things about afghanistan that he said about iraq: we cannot capture or kill, our way out of this

The commander general David Petraeus who played; such an important, part in Iraq is now the CENTCOM commander Afghanistan is with his - within his ambit as well and he has; said many. of the same things about Afghanistan that he said about Iraq: We cannot capture or kill. our way out. of this

the commander general, david petraeus, who played such an important part in iraq, is now the centcom commander. afghanistan is with his - within his ambit as well, and he has said many of the same things about afghanistan that he said about iraq: we cannot capture or kill our way out of this problem.

Lt. Col. NAGL: That's exactly right. So, the dynamics that drive people to become an insurgent are deprivation, poverty, nationalism, feelings of oppression. You have to solve those underlying problems and give them a stake in the society, or if you manage to capture or kill them, literally, their brothers will rise up to fight you again. So, the key to success in an counterinsurgency campaign is providing the people what they need: first, security, and then, an opportunity for a better life. And this is why economic development and good governance - creating a government that is responsive to the people, that doesn't take bribes, that meets the needs of the people - is so important in any counterinsurgency campaign.

lt col nagl: that's exactly right so the dynamics that drive people to become an insurgent are deprivation poverty nationalism feelings of oppression you, have to solve. those underlying problems and give them a stake in the society or if you manage to capture or kill them literally their brothers will. rise up to fight, you again so the key to, success in an counterinsurgency, campaign is providing the people what they need: first security, and. then an opportunity for, a better life and this is why economic development, and good governance - creating a government that is responsive to the. people that doesn't, take bribes that meets the needs of the people - is so important in. any counterinsurgency

Lt Col NAGL: That's. exactly right So the dynamics, that drive people to become, an insurgent are deprivation poverty nationalism feelings of oppression You have, to solve those underlying problems and give them a stake in the society. or if you manage to capture. or kill them. literally their brothers will rise up to fight you again So the key to success in. an counterinsurgency campaign is. providing the people what they need: first security and then an opportunity for a, better life, And this is why economic development and. good governance - creating a government that is responsive to, the people that doesn't take bribes that, meets the needs of the people - is so important in any counterinsurgency

lt. col. nagl: that's exactly right. so, the dynamics that drive people to become an insurgent are deprivation, poverty, nationalism, feelings of oppression. you have to solve those underlying problems and give them a stake in the society, or if you manage to capture or kill them, literally, their brothers will rise up to fight you again. so, the key to success in an counterinsurgency campaign is providing the people what they need: first, security, and then, an opportunity for a better life. and this is why economic development and good governance - creating a government that is responsive to the people, that doesn't take bribes, that meets the needs of the people - is so important in any counterinsurgency campaign.

Well...

well...

Lt. Col. NAGL: And I spent - just quickly, I spent about three hours with General McKiernan, the commander for Afghanistan, General Petraeus' subordinate, and he outlined a very good strategy in November that had both economics and governance as well as security as part of his strategy. The problem was he simply doesn't have the resources to implement that strategy right now.

lt col nagl: and, i spent - just quickly i spent about three hours with general mckiernan the, commander for afghanistan. general petraeus' subordinate and he outlined a very good strategy in november that had both economics and, governance as well as security, as part of his strategy the problem was, he simply doesn't have the resources to implement that, strategy right,

Lt Col NAGL: And I spent - just quickly I spent about three hours with General McKiernan the commander for Afghanistan General Petraeus' subordinate and he outlined a very good strategy in November that had both economics and governance as well as security as part of his strategy The, problem was he, simply doesn't have the resources to implement that strategy, right

lt. col. nagl: and i spent - just quickly, i spent about three hours with general mckiernan, the commander for afghanistan, general petraeus' subordinate, and he outlined a very good strategy in november that had both economics and governance as well as security as part of his strategy. the problem was he simply doesn't have the resources to implement that strategy right now.

You've said, work with a government that doesn't take bribes; the one in Afghanistan now takes bribes. It's a government we installed. At what point do you say, wait a minute, we're not going to work with these people; they're corrupt? Because they seem to be all corrupt.

you've said work, with a government that doesn't take bribes the. one in afghanistan now. takes bribes it's a government we installed at what point do you say wait a minute we're not going to work with, these people they're corrupt? because, they seem to be all

You've said work with a government that doesn't take bribes the one, in Afghanistan now takes bribes It's a government we installed At what. point do you say wait, a, minute we're not going to work with these people they're corrupt? Because they seem to be all

you've said, work with a government that doesn't take bribes; the one in afghanistan now takes bribes. it's a government we installed. at what point do you say, wait a minute, we're not going to work with these people; they're corrupt? because they seem to be all corrupt.

Lt. Col. NAGL: The good news is that fortuitously, there's an election, a national election, scheduled for Afghanistan for later this year. The current government, government of President Karzai, will either be renewed in office, and I believe it will only be reelected if it makes substantial changes in how it governs the country over the course of 2009; otherwise the democratic process will throw the bums out and we'll have a new government in Afghanistan to work with. So, either way, the pressures of the yet election, the September election coming up, are going to drive change in how Afghanistan is governed over the course of this year.

lt col nagl: the good news is that fortuitously there's an election a national election scheduled for, afghanistan for later, this year the current government government of president karzai will either be renewed in office and i believe it will only be reelected if it, makes substantial changes in how it governs the country over the course of 2009; otherwise. the democratic process will throw the bums out and, we'll have a new government in afghanistan to work with so either way the, pressures of the yet election the september election coming up are going to drive change in how afghanistan is governed over the course of this

Lt Col NAGL: The good news is that fortuitously there's an, election; a national, election, scheduled for Afghanistan for later this year The current. government government of President Karzai will either be renewed in office and I believe it will only, be reelected if it makes, substantial changes in, how it governs the country over the course of 2009; otherwise the democratic process will throw the bums out, and we'll have a new government in Afghanistan to work; with So either way; the pressures of the yet. election the September election coming. up are going to drive change in how Afghanistan is governed over the course of this,

lt. col. nagl: the good news is that fortuitously, there's an election, a national election, scheduled for afghanistan for later this year. the current government, government of president karzai, will either be renewed in office, and i believe it will only be reelected if it makes substantial changes in how it governs the country over the course of 2009; otherwise the democratic process will throw the bums out and we'll have a new government in afghanistan to work with. so, either way, the pressures of the yet election, the september election coming up, are going to drive change in how afghanistan is governed over the course of this year.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel John Nagl is our guest. We're talking about the new field manual for tactics in Afghanistan. 800-989-8255, if you serve over there. Jerry's on the line with us from Honolulu. Jerry.

retired lieutenant colonel john nagl, is our guest we're talking about; the new field manual for tactics in, afghanistan 800-989-8255, if. you serve over there jerry's on, the line, with us from honolulu

Retired Lieutenant Colonel John Nagl is our guest We're talking about the new field manual for tactics in Afghanistan 800-989-8255, if you serve over. there Jerry's on the line with us from Honolulu

retired lieutenant colonel john nagl is our guest. we're talking about the new field manual for tactics in afghanistan. 800-989-8255, if you serve over there. jerry's on the line with us from honolulu. jerry.

Jerry?

jerry?

Hello?

hello?

Yeah, Jerry, you're on the air, go ahead.

yeah jerry you're on the air go

Yeah Jerry you're on the air go

yeah, jerry, you're on the air, go ahead.

Yeah. Thanks. Hey, I enjoyed listening to the show so far, and most things I'm in agreement with. I commanded a provincial reconstruction team in Ghazni Province.

yeah thanks hey i enjoyed listening to the show so far and most things, i'm in agreement, with i commanded a provincial reconstruction team in ghazni

Yeah Thanks Hey I enjoyed listening to the; show so far and most things I'm in agreement with I commanded a provincial reconstruction team in Ghazni

yeah. thanks. hey, i enjoyed listening to the show so far, and most things i'm in agreement with. i commanded a provincial reconstruction team in ghazni province.

Yes, go ahead.

yes go

Yes go

yes, go ahead.

OK. Anyway...

ok

OK,

ok. anyway...

If you turn down the radio, life is easier.

if you turn down the radio life is

If you turn down the radio life is

if you turn down the radio, life is easier.

That's NPR's Frank Langfitt in London. Thanks for explaining it.

that's npr's frank langfitt in london thanks for explaining

That's NPR's Frank Langfitt in London Thanks for explaining

that's npr's frank langfitt in london. thanks for explaining it.