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4df588bf31fd-12 | much more press traction than the uh car driving or hijab protest in Saudi Arabia ever got and there's a reason for it the overwhelming part of the minority electorate and European countries is Sunni okay they would much rather pay attention to a Shia anti hijab protest than paid and remember overwhelmingly when you look at it a Muslim minority in Europe and America a Sunni minority in Europe and America is one of the most economically depressed sections of society like take Britain in terms of its the Indian subcontinent technically we were all one country at the same at one point of time Hindus have the lowest levels of incarceration lowest jail population lowest violent crimes lowest arrests highest income group pakistanis and bangladeshis are the exact opposite lowest income groups overwhelmingly blue-collar disproportionate in the amount of them who are in jail and they form the Back Bay the backbone of the labor party right so there is a fundamental thing where you appease your vote bank which is why you | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-13 | where you appease your vote bank which is why you know it is political there's never a even standard applied to everybody there's not for example Ukraine you have videos every day coming out showing you how Neo-Nazi the Ukrainian military is you know for the first two months of the war there wasn't a single image that the Ukrainian military put out that did not have a Neo-Nazi or Nazi connotation to it I'm going to bring you back wait wait but they are liberals and the BJP is fascist I'm going to come back to this where you know we were talking about who who is the the speaker for the Hindu narrative or the not the Hindu narrative who's The Speaker for the right-wing narrative in India let's first let's figure that out then go to the uh the Muslim right-wing narrative when we talk about the Hindu right-wing narrative is it Narendra Modi is it the gaurakshaks is it you know is it the RSS who who do | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-14 | it you know is it the RSS who who do we say okay because what you are saying is that the BJP has moved away from the right wing narrative so then who is it um so the BJP hasn't moved away from the right-wing narrative in one important Point what made them right-wing was Hindu nationalism and Hindu nationalism was dependent on overcoming caste because caste elections in this country were one on caste and as long as those caste divisions State Hindu consolidation was impossible which is why you have that caste consolidation so in that they're actually very right-wing the economic right-wing who are the speakers for an economic right-wing hardly anyone today at most say Jagdish bhagavati the the UPA was supposed to be left-wing but when it came to uh economic economics they came right they were and the BJP which is right wing when it comes to their economic policies their own people castigate the party to say that we have turned left wing correct but tell me is | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-15 | we have turned left wing correct but tell me is it economic left because they're until their scheme is it it's I mean many say it's socialism with an Indian name that's all basically you look at everything they do so there's two three layers to their economic policies right on one hand you have the very admirable uh denationalization or the privatization of Air India which should be lauded thank God I expect a lot more to happen uh you but on the other hand you have the return of a license not a license Raj but a baburaj and how I think babus have been empowered like nobody's business and remember the baboon is essentially a rent-seeking system right it's a rentier state of the worst possible kind they make Russians Saudi Arabia look like uh raging liberal democracy about comparison you don't say that it's the iron frame which is holding India in place exactly I want to ask that too you you're the ultimate privileged brat who is from the from the bureaucracy Bond | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-16 | who is from the from the bureaucracy Bond so you understand the bureaucracy I am I am a class traitor on so many levels yeah I have betrayed the IAS I've betrayed the IAS which my father was from I have betrayed um uh hindutva by eating beef apparently yeah I've uh betrayed uh the cultural norms of this country by wearing shorts and a t-shirt okay and uh I I have betrayed the ethos of this country by being Occidental in my Outlook I am a lecture Trader at so many levels and what Putra are you I prefer to think of myself you know there's that um the thing from the upanishads and now here you are quoting now now what do I do if you start spouting Vedas and you starts us next you're going to spout Vedic philosophy and you're going to get everybody angry that you this beef eating Veda spouting person so I I just do everything I have an issue see I'm not ideological because | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-17 | I have an issue see I'm not ideological because for me ideology is outsourcing your brain to somebody why should I I need to follow where evidence leads me so in some things I'm quite left-wing now you are branded as right-wing sorry you can call yourself left wing your branded is right wing that's why you're here to explain it identify is right yes you identify as right wing now why does the right wing seek validation from the left all the time okay a severe inferiority complex their education isn't good enough uh when they get money they don't value um a Humanities education at all and I think that's the Indian mindset you know uh actually Gober has higher value than Humanities graduate in India they never study the humanities and they don't realize that historically it is always the humanities that has controlled the sciences and not science that has controlled Humanity you tell me one scientist whoever became president you're now getting too deep for me but it's the truth get to the point Humanities | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-18 | but it's the truth get to the point Humanities is how to control the human mind okay science is about controlling nature and the laws of nature humanity is about controlling the human mind the the right in this country does not invest in education they don't invest in research they don't invest in archiving they don't invest in human beings right that's why all the think tanks in this country are all left all the media is left um well the think tanks aren't really left the think tanks are non-committal but you tell me the well-funded ones are left leaning uh that's that's a whole different thing that's a left ecosystem okay it doesn't mean they're particularly perspicacious because the Indian left also has certain very severe problems okay we will get to that soon okay but let's talk about the right word leaning ones in my experience think tanks have a mix of both right and left okay uh but mostly think tanks in India seldom do any research they do events uh events are not research you know you look | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-19 | events uh events are not research you know you look at Western think tanks I mean for all your criticisms of them that they're ideological whatever whatever they become ideological uh they actually invest hugely in going to the places they study sitting and talking to people on the ground meeting people doing hard painstaking ground research whether it's crackery or not you can decide later but in my experience ground research always yields gold right let me give you a simple example with me do you remember when uh doklam was happening in 2017. um there was a lot of stories coming out except nobody from the Indian side was going to do club right uh it curiously happened that the end of my North Korea trip was also the beginning of my Tibet trip so I happened to be in lhasa and I wanted to be in lhasa and I took the car went past shigatse and got very close to doklam say about 100 kilometers away and you know I was looking at because when | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-20 | away and you know I was looking at because when you're coming to Chicago you can see the airport formations when you're leaving last time coming into lhasa uh you can see the aircraft parked water the military aircraft parked on the tarmac what are the uh armored vehicles in The marshalling Yards around uh lhasa and things like that and it simply didn't add up with what we were Hearing in the Indian press there was no sense of urgency or alarm on the Chinese side and they were actually quite surprised in Beijing by what was happening in India because they hadn't expected that kind of a response from India now that is called primary research where you're actually going into the middle of a uh this thing and looking at it now very frequently we don't have the money to go there right so at least look at satellite imagery then the satellite imagery doesn't tell you the whole story but it can give you about 60 70 of the story at least who in India does that Indians | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-21 | the story at least who in India does that Indians I mean you look at all these big houses the media houses they have money to do you know Leadership Summit uh uh uh uh your majesty Summit your Excellency Summit uh basketball player uh tennis player this they'll bring they don't have money to spend on their main thing which is to get you information which is satellite imagery or send a correspondent out there we now that we're talking about media the media you know uh internationally speaking like in most uh Western liberal democracies the media has generally been uh left-leaning right even in India the media has been uh left-leaning it's it's not comfortable with a right-leaning government which comes in uh even when it does come in the bureaucracy sees it as an interloper the media tends to think that they are not for free thought and it's to rashtravadi and you know it doesn't it doesn't um Fosters free speech and you know the left liberal views or whatever but | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-22 | and you know the left liberal views or whatever but uh the the left ecosystem now says that the media is completely sold out to the right do you see that do you see that happening in no I see Market forces at work out here you know you see the media landscape mirroring the political landscape out here right now or always uh always okay it's not just now okay it's always been that that the most popular government Indians generally tend to be very pro-government it doesn't matter which government is in par the government is usually a reflection of popularity in this case right okay and uh I'll get in trouble so I'm not going to say that but in that sense so you will have uh so they're two parts to your question first why is the media like Academia and think tankery so left-wing it's because the humanities has executed a complete institutional capture and a mind capture of the humanities okay so you know your if you're studying humanities it's fundamentally a left-wing indoctrination camp right | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-23 | it's fundamentally a left-wing indoctrination camp right you can't get away from that hmm so the people who managed to get away will be you can literally count them on the tips of your fingers because it's that one person in a hundred who has the brains to say there's a whole world outside because even the terminology right abhijeet when you were in college and uh you know it was always Looney right which was used right it's used so liberally Looney right I was in fact there was one day I was talking about like you know now this whole thing about bhagat Singh bhagat Singh everybody's talking about bhagat Singh but when you were studying bhagat Singh in school and college and I'm talking about Urban centers you but you our history book said extremists and moderates the cbse boards were you'd studied more about the moderates correct extremist was a three mark question so let's face it if you are not a Humanity student are you going to study about | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-24 | not a Humanity student are you going to study about the three mark question or about the moderates then you studied more about the moderates right because those were longer answers did you study about uh you know I'm again I want to make it clear I'm talking about our history texts which were of the central Board of secondary education not the state boards so you know your shivaji Rana Pratap or the Chola chalukya's uh pandas you know all this in cbse were two mark one more question but when you talked about the mughals was about 15 mark question 10 mark question and multiple choice question of uh or you wanted jahangir or you wanted akbar's architecture or you know so that whole thing was there and this was relegated again you're talking about Academia now the Academia is also ah left wing oriented right the left narrative we've talked about think tanks we've talked to talked about media now the Academia so Academia will especially the humanities Academia is always going | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-25 | will especially the humanities Academia is always going to be left-wing because that institutional capture was uh affected almost a century back uh you know what Lenin used to say was every idea is worth a thousand pages of theory so they will come up with mumbo jumbo and sometimes it's valid and mostly it's overwhelmingly mumbo-jumbo they will break it down into its constituent parts and they will create the entire volume of work about it when you've saturated the literature with your literature doesn't matter if it's good or bad but if 99 of the available literature is left-wing then the people reading it will also turn out to be left-wing so 99 of the people reading that 99 turn out to be left-wing then the job market gets saturated with that they create their own validation circles that if you're right-wing you're not really you don't really know the subject this person knows the subject and so it became it becomes a complete validation citation and Views and employment capture the same way in which you know | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-26 | and employment capture the same way in which you know Halal certification has led to a complete a dispossession of dalit butchers in this country uh and so badly so that uh products run even by Hindu sons and things like that apply for Halal certification for vegetarian products right so that's what the export Market mostly right right whatever it's Market forces as you it's Market forces yeah so you have this fundamental problem that when you have a certification agency you then start getting monopolies for example nobody can make champagne unless the French certify you as a docg champagne producer growing it in Champagne you can produce sparkling wine but you can't produce champagne but now it's all changing that I'm not talking about products or the Halal thing right now I'm just talking about the right wing now deciding like the Muslim right wing is now having a rethink the recent you know this the the pasandam Muslims coming out and saying that we do not uh you know we we support the uh | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-27 | do not uh you know we we support the uh the uh the Crackdown on PFI there is a rethink among educated Muslims who feel that there was an elite which was speaking on our behalf and they were not speaking what we wanted they many don't agree with it right they may not agree with what just one group of Muslims have to say similarly uh the right wing uh Hindu narrative is also that you know what has been said so far was the left capture of History we want to rewrite it we want but then there is a pushback to say you can't rewrite history now the same thing like we've talked about Academia we've talked about media we've talked about think tanks the same thing is happening with Bollywood that Bollywood there was this whole movement against Bollywood that and this ban certain actors for what they have said it sounds a little bizarre sometimes that you go to that extreme that you're Banning an actor who just said that I had he liked beef and he | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-28 | just said that I had he liked beef and he said it several years ago but there is this anger against a certain section of Bollywood that they had captured the narrative do you think that that is like valid that that angst that you're seeing spilling out now it's a reaction it's a reaction to uh the left cancer culture remember the left started this cancer culture uh you're a bigot therefore we won't platform you yeah uh they of course did it very differently right uh the left in India has its own problems because they've uh if you wear a lefty uh they would promote any mediocrity any F grader any third grader so what's happened is that all you need to do to become a serious public intellectual in India is stock left wing garbage and you can be absolute rubbish and you'll become a public intellectual you'll be labeled a puppy in Crown Market where raw mango uh cotton sarees and have at least three books from bhari Sons right in | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-29 | at least three books from bhari Sons right in your left arm and a jhola in your right arm I'm talking about the women and as far as the men uh Fab India kurta I'm just talking superficially Fab India kurta uh and uh nehru jacket nehru jacket um and a slightly crumpled uh disheveled look about you and uh sit in triveni and sip tea from [Music] thing and you've given the impression that you are a left liberal now comes the spouting now you tell me what is outing of the left now comes the spouting where you can spout any kind of rubbish and as long as it suits their agenda they'll Crown you a an intellectual but they're paying a very heavy price for it which they don't realize they've been wiped out from PA you look today before uh say the Congress let's assume for this particular argument the Congress is left and the BJP is right right if this was the Spectrum the center was here the BJP occupied here | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-30 | Spectrum the center was here the BJP occupied here the Congress was here and the left parties were here today the median has shifted so much that the left space is only this much the Congress is competing the cannibalizing CPI cpim votes this is the space the the bjpa by moving left nobody is there to outflank it on the right but on that left that you're showing that spectrum is also clawing at that left is that kejriwal and ahmadmi party but it didn't work for him but kg while see the thing is kejriwal is an opportunist which I'm perfectly fine with I say this as a compliment I don't mean it as an insert I would much rather have somebody like kejriwal who's willing to toy around with the right and play the right game huh than in ideological left and so what you've had is diminishing returns on the left you tell me one word uh does she come in that that small spectrum of left she comes in a regional | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-31 | small spectrum of left she comes in a regional identity it's not a economic identity out there she got rid of the left and she came in she outlifted them she outlifted the left isn't it she didn't become Centrist or right no she just yeah that's it with a different name so you basically have a left party with a different name there basically basically she was the left wing of the congress party anyway yeah right okay uh so what happens with the left in India is they are never going to get political part again for at least another 15-20 years as far as I can tell be it monarchs in Europe or be it Communists in the USSR they used to Dole out money liberally to the Arts to literature to Academia to write their hegeographies okay right King John was actually a bad King John of Robin Hood Fame was actually a very good King and good King Richard was actually a very bad King and yet history will teach you that Jon was the | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-32 | and yet history will teach you that Jon was the villain and Richard was the hero okay whereas all the economic records and all the other records will show you that was actually not the case King John was actually fighting for the rights of the people and the Barons took away the Magna Carta was actually a kind of re-enslavement of the people in a cells but uh but remember there was already an ecosystem and they were considered for giving you validation it and it's not just semi-literate people who require validation everybody requires validation I'm unique I only seek validation from my dogs and my cats I don't seek human validation that's why left-wing they validate each other even if they don't agree with each other yes they validate right exactly like uh you know I mean when we talk about authors in the left wing you can if you have arundhati Roy extreme left gandhian with guns and all that but who wasn't considered left he was considered right at one point of time shifted and made | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-33 | right at one point of time shifted and made because you know at some point of time there were these right-wing authors columnists writers journalists who you know disliked Modi so they become left-wing right they move they jumped ship and Pratap Banu Mehta I'm sorry but I feel that that's what happened with him so you hit the nail on the head there is no left wing and right wing in India there is the gravy train wing and there is the anarth link okay explain this now okay what you call the left wing in India is actually highly privileged pricks who all come from very privileged families who essentially create a I'm sorry to use this word but a circle jerk uh of each other providing violation oh this is the new upcoming scholar of India he or she is the ultimate last word on this it is the gravy train Wing they've been brought up on state larges they have been brought up which every King historically has done the chorus did it the pandyas did | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-34 | has done the chorus did it the pandyas did it the pallavas did it the mughals did it that you get poets and things like that to write hoshanas about you uh you get authors to write what a great king I mean after all was uh composed by somebody for someone the shaname was composed uh for someone by giving money to the author right so every everything even Shakespeare was like that everything yeah this government does not provide a gravy train you're supposed to do everything in so this is that swam sevak uh mentality right so the right wing doesn't doesn't provide the gravy for the gravy train so there's no narrative that's what you're saying correct okay uh if you are not going to give state largesse if you are not going to give institutional validation and the problem is the people who are in position to give institutional validation desperately seek validation from the left hmm right they will go to Every left event when invited uh just to score you know oh uh he | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-35 | invited uh just to score you know oh uh he uh they essentially fit into the left's need for a token right winger to show over representative it was like that show you know that but one second even though the left wing will invite that one token right winger God help that one left Winger who gets invited to a right-wing event they are booed they are shamed they are called names because the right wing won't accept a slight soft right wing also they you have to be ultra Ultra right wing to get accepted if you are slightly like even if you're seen in the company of a Centrist not acceptable so why is that you know that intolerance in the right wing I'm sorry to use this word because the right wing hates that word being used but it is but it is of course it is look the right thing you have to understand what is the right thing in India most of them are socially upwardly mobile yuppies uh the first generation Rich they haven't had a terribly great education there | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-36 | Rich they haven't had a terribly great education there are of course notable exceptions to the rule but overwhelmingly uh they are socially upwardly mobile and this is where Huntington makes a very very interesting case in The Clash of civilizations on how emerging cultures emphasize their Roots nationalism and things like that so this is a group that is not willing to tolerate and it's so bad they don't even read I mean how are you going to oppose an idea if you're not willing to read the books of the other side I you know for example I read wire and scroll a lot because I need to know what the other side is saying okay but the left doesn't read any right they they call it oh no no no no no no no they trust me they go over it with a fine tooth comb and they diss it they diss it when required mostly if you're if they find you particularly dangerous they ignore you okay the left's method of ignoring people is if they find you a | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-37 | method of ignoring people is if they find you a threat they ignore you so that you will never get any publicity okay the rights method is they find you a threat even if you're a low level useless threat like ranayub is the biggest transparently fraud journalist around she has never produced a single iota of proof for anything she's ever written madhu Trehan gave her a platform gave her a platform on news laundry saying we'll publish your tapes and she said no it's actually you know Shoma Chaudhary and uh own it they said no no she's free to publish it she still hasn't published it now you say you you need to tell me Washington Post doesn't have uh the money or the resources to catalog the entire 600 odd tapes that she has of course not she never produces an iota of proof for anything she says but who made Rana are you big entirely the right wing Abhishek is the left wing is it Justified the right wing says that the left wing is | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-38 | Justified the right wing says that the left wing is very intolerant of any opinion other than their own uh voice the left accuses the right of the same thing so tell me where and does the left wing do the left wing authors think tankers media do they do they cannibalize on each other as much as the right wing does no so like I said it's the gravy train Wing generally and what happens is there actually if this is the space the academic space or the profit making space from books or whatever they account for maybe this much but they occupy this much of the space right so as much as they cannibalize votes votes their cannibalizing each other but in terms of academic economic uh uh teaching opportunities or whatever or think tanking opportunities there's actually a vast field for them to play about for the left you mean for the left uh is in fact the more you spread an intolerance narrative the more their space increases the second thing about left intolerance is they are very | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-39 | the second thing about left intolerance is they are very tolerant of representational diversity and extremely intolerant of intellectual diversity they substitute you can have a trans a CIS uh uh assist trans uh lady who identifies as a as the uh uh uh plastic casing on a copper wire they can have a uh a uh I don't know an Eskimo uh Aboriginal uh uh Bedouin person uh and things like that who will all be saying the exact same thing okay so they go in for diversity of color diversity of caste diversity of class it's tokenism but all to trumpet the same line and I would much rather have the right in India which is so much more cacophonous because remember on the right technically if you're looking you can't understand anything because of that cacophony no you can't understand not because of the cacophony you can't understand because mostly the right are very crude and unsophisticated and unread but there are very notable exceptions so remember we | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-40 | unread but there are very notable exceptions so remember we savarkar was an intellectual giant of his times yeah and he shows you the three strands that have always existed within say the hindutva narrative one is the savarkar branch which is extremely Progressive yeah he talks about urbanization right but find me the right wing guys who will talk about them they will not because do you know I I've never met a right-wing guy who is a red savarkar most people haven't even read foreign these people the traditionalists have lost every single electoral battle both outside and even within the hindustwavadi fold and the RSS represents the middle which was going too Progressive calm down a bit you guys we don't really want to associate with you because if you think caste is important then stay away from us so they came up with this socially conservative consensus which was we are all for change when Society is ready for it for example homosexuality Congress because it had to cater to certain Christian and Muslim groups | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-41 | had to cater to certain Christian and Muslim groups when it was not in court they would support decriminalization of homosexuality the moment it would go to court again they would oppose it whereas with this government it was look we're not going to talk about it openly but fine go ahead and decriminalize it right and then what's happened is I think they were particularly upset from very Progressive uh no it's typical RSS we don't have an opinion on this Society is that's fine I'm perfectly fine with that yeah right uh in the left wing though they're supposed to be liberals you have to go to the right school right College uh born to the right parents somewhat be the right cast and you need to tick all those boxes but on the right side you don't need to on the right you don't need that in fact if you have gone to those schools and colleges negative against you if you speak English it's a negative against you okay so uh so the left actually has a lot of | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-42 | so uh so the left actually has a lot of classism in it okay and cast is a minute okay are some of the most horrifically Caster statements I've heard have come from the left now there's also this belief that um you know this the the whole uh right-wing narrative it it's based on this concept that a strong nationhood feeling that's the only thing that will bond us that uh and that strong nationhood originates from our Villages and urban centers are the corruption of that nationhood sentiment uh is that right is that wrong do you think that that narrative needs to go I call it the Isis mentality and I'll tell you why all self-confidence civilizations look to the Future all inferiority complex ridden societies that are not successful look to an imagined past for you know obscurantists Muslims it's the rashidun caliphate for uh uh muja Hindus it's Ram Raja muja Hindus now you're confusing me I'm very sadharan prani it's a Basics it's important | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-43 | sadharan prani it's a Basics it's important and Hindu yeah I got that but why do you call them that because they're just they they're except in terms of physical violence which is to say beheading or bombing or whatever they're an exact mirror image off what they hate um and what you find with these mujah Hindus is they imagine this past oh you know we never used to eat I'm sorry to bring it back to beef but beef well we never used to eat beef you look at bibilal and nobody can accuse Bibi Lal of being a left finger yeah you bibilal's findings his own writing on the excavations at harappa and mohenjo daro the maximum number of butchered bones was that of Boss indicus not even boss Taurus it was in foreign cows that they ate they ate Indian cows so the fundamental differences between a Hindu extremist a Hindu extremist will fundamentally always be a lot more tolerant what they insist on curiously | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-44 | lot more tolerant what they insist on curiously enough is direct from the ramayana it's your Agni pariksha you have to pass through all these things because you're going to get me sued I'm going to move on no no but they're actually following the ramayana we should appreciate them they are true they are following the book to the word in terms of their fundamentals everybody on this show now just please tell me where give me an answer see now those who oppose the right wing another question is those who oppose the right wing both Hindu and Muslim feel that this the Hindu right which has now you know got a government in place they will push India back it's a different matter that what Mr Modi and the BJP says is that we're building more flyovers we're opening up our markets we are giving jobs we are doing this more ports more uh Railways all that connectivity all that is going on more tourism uh we are going to be vishwa Guru that's a different point | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-45 | to be vishwa Guru that's a different point all together but the left-wing thinks that with the right-wing government uh it will push us back towards a kind of a stagnation or even push us back because the the ideas that the right wing believes in goes back to The Vedic times so how how valid is that fear that they have and do is is it a fear or is it just a tactic so it's a tactic it's a tactic because I can tell you that this government doesn't actually believe in much I would say they're mostly about 10 percent genius inspiration uh 30 percent mediocrity and the remaining 60 income your Funda it's not Funda let's look at it let's look at it so the abrogation of 370 Shear genius yeah okay the way it was done constitutionally valid everything was sure genius right the rest so for example uh uh you know uh State investment in roads uh airports etc etc this is what every government should be doing technically where does the incompetence | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-46 | government should be doing technically where does the incompetence angle come in South Asia we know that the building of infrastructure does not automatically lead to growth right and the clearest example is how none of those people who built the Delhi gurgaon Highway were able to recoup their money from the uh toll booths and things like that right and the reason is there is too much regulation there is too much Court interference too much everything adani is building ports and airports everywhere if there was no money if it was not lucrative so the money doesn't come from actually building the port the money didn't come out from the money didn't come from Delhi airport the money came from that Development Area Telecom right so so the money does not come directly so if it wasn't lucrative why would adani be building airports why would Ambani be in Telecom and you know I mean it is lucrative that's why we've got more millionaires we've got more unicorns you know we're doing well as as | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-47 | more unicorns you know we're doing well as as far as the most even though Rahul Gandhi will say and the left wing says it's crony capitalism my whole issue is there is no suitable it's all valuation games happening with the unicorns okay adani and Ambani like I said the money will not come from the port the money will come from all the extra land which will be converted and this has been the thing in India for a very long time that it is the real estate that you squat on allow to appreciate and make buildings out of and sell residential plots and things like that that actually end up making the money we think that infrastructure leads to growth growth is a very complex feeling it happened in Korea infrastructure grow because you got your regulatory mechanisms your judicial mechanisms all of that right here I think there is a lot to be said about the economic literacy of the Judiciary there's a lot to be said about the economic literacy of the government itself you | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-48 | about the economic literacy of the government itself you now you're wading into territory where I will become the villain because as far as as our uh honorable Supreme Court is concerned I am the villain media is the biggest biggest crook in this country we are worse than whatever you want to say now we are worse than what did you use that word we are worse than anybody we have you know we are the bad bad people responsible for every ill I only like villains I never like Heroes okay in every movie we are Prem Chopra Helen yes Arch villains okay true arch villain are mogambo level or you know Darth Vader level and things so we are that we are that Darth Vaders we are the Darth via the darkness so please don't say anything about the Judiciary in my show okay so now you're talking about foreign um left liberal we talked about it now this sudden uh you know India has shied away when I say India I mean | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-49 | India has shied away when I say India I mean Indian government Indian government has shied away from openly taking on the foreign media whatever happened was like Ministry of external Affairs secretary level Banda would call up the BBC and say what the why have you reported like this on Kashmir uh you should report like this that it stayed at that level it would never escalated to the political uh class taking on foreign media but now you're seeing a different uh India I don't know whether it is a confident India or whether it's a different media policy but taking on the foreign media special actually in their own land saying two newspapers you know that's what Jay Shankar had said right now so calling their Bluff so you know you guys have been calling their Bluff on social media a number of people from the right wing have been incessantly saying that what the right wing specially what the left liberal uh media did during kovid foreign media reported during covet was wrong absolutely wrong a number of people did | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-50 | was wrong absolutely wrong a number of people did that because they genuinely believed in it right that it was it was not done but the government never said anything and even if they did it was a muted voice now the government is like we don't want to wait for it to happen we are taking you on so I think we're basing this on just one thing which is what Jay Shankar said in Washington and even that was a rhetorical comeback it wasn't a systematic factual comeback right now if you remember I think it was the independent and the guardian when uh 370 got abrogated in Kashmir the only person that both newspapers could find one month apart in their reporting was the exact same guy with the exact same wounds and they tried passing it off as a different guy okay uh there was that lady Nicola Kareem from the BBC and one independent key journalist imagine one month apart they can only find one victim of brutality that too Anonymous who has | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-51 | one victim of brutality that too Anonymous who has the exact same wound pattern uh you know I saw that yes you had put it up but you know going and saying ah you know Washington Post uh is this on New York Times is this so when you do these takedowns I mean just to uh take down the way a takedown has to happen is you need to have somebody like uh who did vajpay have promote Mahajan right yes would sit down there he would take you down that day then and there Point by point you think that this government is not doing that the social media team of the BJP is really sharp no the the social media team is not the government okay yeah see the government has to do that yes okay right there's no point sitting around and gripping about it later and that to a mesoteric way without naming them what happened was you know when that when the Indian cricketer was trolled um by these Pakistani handles which pretended to be Indian handles and said | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-52 | handles which pretended to be Indian handles and said you're a kalistani and you know that's why you dropped the catch and all those things which are happening it happened close to midnight at that time and Indian media you know some some maybe innocent I'm not saying that they wanted to believe it or anything but when some of these Indian media handles saw that they believed them to be Indian handles correct and they started you know self-lagellation it started apologizing on behalf of Indians saying this is very wrong and things it was only some do-gooder around 4am or something who turned around and said brought out the back of those uh you know the found out the IP addresses and now these are not Indian handles they're pretending to be Indian so 4 AM that happens now by uh by that time the midnight and post midnight websites of the newspapers there are interns on the job or whatever Indian uh they've taken those things and then the headlines have gone on the portals already | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-53 | then the headlines have gone on the portals already Indians troll uh cricketer right and call him kalistani and then that went now what happens is the websites uh or these uh you know these um newspapers who are sitting in America in Europe and things like they don't have reporters in India and even if they have they have one reporter who's sleeping it's it's their Nini time they're sleeping so what do those portals do without calling their reporter they pick from these Indian websites and they copy paste and put out there and then it goes front pages in some by the time India wakes up or Indian government handles wake up to bust this fake news almost 12 hours have gone by fake news has circulated Everywhere by this time this is what I'm trying to do and the retraction never happens have you noticed hmm this is how you create citation Loops the left is very good at this right the retraction will be one news item by that time the news item's been bombarded | kBZaiIjCVPo |
4df588bf31fd-54 | item by that time the news item's been bombarded most will not retract so the problem with the left again it's statistics when your entire media has been brought up in the humanities which is already saturated 99 by the left then 99 of your graduates are going to be left-wing and that's the institutional capture that's happened in the west is where it's a globe remember this is what Manu Joseph says the left is global the right wing is always local which is why you can never build International things so whenever we talk about the right-wing narrative we end up talking about the BJP don't don't talk about it the the Muslim narrative doesn't come in which also has a very strong right wing and a left wing in that too so that we will leave for another conversation thank you so much for speaking with me thank you for listening in whichever platform you saw or listen to this please like or subscribe I am Smitha prakash signing off namaste foreign [Music] | kBZaiIjCVPo |
33930af4dd76-0 | in the BJP nitish ji was himself uncomfortable and was being treated in a manner that made it clear to him who's the boss Mr naren modi's strategy to begin with in his Ascent to the Pinnacle of the BJP was to First influence the middle class I am not in favor of mere Jordan politics what we need is not arithmetic Unity what we need is organic Unity I had once a boss in mea who tell me on the intercom I say old chap there is an HMT type of guy here then it's called umt Uh do medium type hey Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today's episode is my conversation with Pawan Varma Mr Varma has been a former bureaucrat he was in the external Affairs Ministry held very important positions and ambassador he's also an author who's written a variety of a book on variety of subjects he's been a politician joined nitish's jdu and then moved over to the TMC uncomfortable with | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-1 | and then moved over to the TMC uncomfortable with nitish's U-Turn when he joined the BJP or joined an alliance with the BJP to be specific is also an essential uh essentially a Delhi boy he um he typifies what is known as latians Delhi or uh or what is known as the Khan Market gang so I spoke about all that I spoke about politics and he discussed with me what it meant to make the transition from bureaucracy to politics uh he spoke about being of hindutva of what it means for a sanatan Hindu or an Hindu uh to you know be to face this hindutva Onslaught as he terms it and then to spoke about bureaucracy the letters which are being written about by bureaucrats against the government for the government uh a myriad of issues so it's an interesting conversation about what it means for grassroot level politics versus a kind of an elite view about what grassroot level politics is about but he remains grounded in spite | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-2 | is about but he remains grounded in spite of being from Elite Delhi bhavanji thank you very much for speaking with me on a i podcast with Smith Africa pleasure is mine it's it's an absolute pleasure and honor to have you here I've known we've known each other for so long when I was cutting my teeth in journalism you were in the Foreign Service and very kindly you used to give me information which was you know which I could use in my stories and uh the beat was different the foreign office beat was different television was like so small and we were so few of us in doing television but you took to the medium very easily uh you know even then though you uh I guess when you joined the service there was just print not much of Television so anyway and you you know after an illustrious career in uh in the Foreign Service you decided to make the shift and join politics so before I get on to today's India and today's politics I want to know from | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-3 | India and today's politics I want to know from you what prompted you why did you move from like you know a steady way of life which bureaucracy is to the tumult of politics well you know I I greatly enjoyed the Foreign Service and let me reiterate what the great pleasure it is to talk to you as you said we've known each other for so long not only you but Sanjeev your husband your father-in-law your father Mr Ramon Rao who was very close to me so I enjoyed the Foreign Service but I felt I wanted a larger canvas to be better able in my small way to contribute to bigger issues ah so I was toying with the idea of public life for a while and I was about to take the step but it so happened uh I mean as a coincidence that Mr nitish Kumar the chief minister of Bihar visited Bhutan when I was Ambassador there and we got on very well and one thing led to another and he said to me | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-4 | one thing led to another and he said to me I've told him I would like to work with you although I must confess at that time I had offers also from the congress party I had friends in the BJP the late Arun jaitley was my class fellow since school college law faculty okay so we were very good friends you were in Saint Stephen's I was in Saint Stephen's he went to sriram we were both Debaters we used to debate against each other then we both joined law fact together and we were in the same class in Saint Xavier school okay so but I joined nitish Kumar uh and made the transition to politics he was very kind in the sense that he made me a cabinet minister straight away with as advisor the chief minister and later sent me to the Raj Sabha and I've never regretted the decisions with that but that was the main motivation I must say that in a certain way I was already in public life because of the many book side books right so | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-5 | life because of the many book side books right so I was not entirely a conventional bureaucrat right and so it seemed logical to take this step to see how I could in my small way control but the books that you have written uh that wasn't that wasn't hardcore hardcore politics you know it was I mean from writing about the middle class to writing about the Kama Sutra you written the the canvas is vast but it's not it's not about uh say like maybe you know suppose it had been the nuxel issue or caste or something like that which was Hardcore politics you didn't write about that actually the service rules don't permit you correct uh to write on politics per se but I must say that I push those Horizons almost to the limit for instance apart from ghale my biography Krishna and poetry then translated yes which was a very warm relationship but uh like my book The Great Indian middle class now it is not written with the political stance but it encompasses so many | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-6 | with the political stance but it encompasses so many political points of view similarly my book being Indian which was a hard look at who we are had an entire chapter the first chapter on Power and our obsession with power so there were transitional comments on politics but I didn't write about it directly so but those books fortunately did well I was in the public realm I was speaking on contemporary issues because of some of them right and so I think that in some form I was already a public in public life I made a transition to direct politics when I resigned from this so tell me what what was it that didn't work uh with you and the jdu I mean there was there was that letter that you had written about uh about how it didn't sit well when uh nitish joined hands with the BJP and especially on CAA and NRC I saw that letter that you had written so was it just that or were you just uncomfortable with the way nitish had made a u-turn at that stage I | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-7 | nitish had made a u-turn at that stage I think it was a combination of both uh nitish ji when I joined him was a member of the ND Mr Narendra Modi had not yet come on the scene and with that BJP he seemed to be comfortable and you were comfortable I knew it will be very vajpayee very well so very well and and I think I joined him for what he had done in Bihar so I mean there were two aspects to it then he decided to take a strong stand against the uh Ascent of Mr Narendra Modi as the leader of the BJP and we were with him he suffered for it we suffered for it he in the 2014 elections as you know the jdu just got two seats in the Parliamentary elections when nitish ji resigned we were with him and Mr Manji became chief minister and we remained with him on principle when you say suffered you mean electoral electoral electorally suffered for that choice I mean it | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-8 | electorally suffered for that choice I mean it would have been perhaps easier in terms of pure expediency or utility to be with the rising star and be a part of the NDA at that time ah but that was his decision and we backed it on grounds of ideology and principle and then uh when he made that you turn to the BJP now they were close to five years of him being a very vocal about why and his uh his criticism of Narendra Modi so this overnight switch was quite inexplicable to me frankly you none of you had any inkling that he was mulling over this move no actually the truth is and I don't know if it was intentional I was a National General Secretary of the jdu and I have checked with my colleagues the four or five others who were on this top executive position in the party none of them seemed to know it seemed to have been a decision worked out in Patna and perhaps he took that decision from the best intentions but | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-9 | perhaps he took that decision from the best intentions but it was ideologically such a wolf face I mean such a U-turn that I was uncomfortable but I was with him still because in many ways there is a great personal affection between me and nitish she has been very kind to me and also his personal Integrity his administrative Acumen his intellectual leadings these were things that bonded us together but on the caanrc and I am not saying My Views are correct I know in India there are two views on the subject I know your views are different from mine I said that for him to approve of the CAA NRC ah because the jdu had supported that in Parliament and so I voiced my opposition and it became that he I was expelled from the party uh did that hurt does it does it bother no it did hurt because it was a very cherished and treasured relationship because the way I know you you would have chosen to get out rather than wait to be expelled because that is something | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-10 | rather than wait to be expelled because that is something a hardcore politician does take a stand wait to be expelled and then move over to you see this seemed to be at that time no meeting point and I was seeing and now nitish ji acknowledges himself that as in the BJP nitish ji was himself uncomfortable and was being treated in a manner that made it clear to him who's the boss in fact when the first time Narendra Modi came and it was on a public rally in Patna and nitish she made one request and he said Patna University you know and the Prime Minister listened to it gave no assurance and nothing happened so I mean these kind of things were happening and I was uncomfortable with it because I also saw nitish ji as a leader in his own right and he used to be the leader was the largest party I mean the BJP that's one thing about whichever party wins or loses in in Bihar he stays the chief minister so | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-11 | in in Bihar he stays the chief minister so where is it I mean I understand that that in private and then you know sensitivities get hurt these are things which happen in politics but the point is at no point of time was anybody in the BJP for contention for chief Minister's job it was always going to be nitish election after election doesn't matter how many seats he would get there was some something about nitish Kumar that he stays chief minister anyway but you get 2019 onwards it became much worse worse okay PK also left because of this I were expelled from the party on the same day by the same letter do you think there was it was the decision to expel you or do you think no I think it could have been a part of our choice no it could have been a party choice and I think as in terms of the disciplinary rules of the party they felt it appropriately to expel us why did you immediately go over to the TMC okay I | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-12 | you immediately go over to the TMC okay I must say there was a Hiatus of almost two years and let me also clarify that after I was expelled at a personal level my relationship with nitish remained to be good I went to see him once at the height of kovid we had a long chat we used to talk to each other ah and he 2019 onwards I think nitish she was feeling uncomfortable but unable to break with the BJP you know he was reduced to 43 seats yeah what he calls the chirag pass one factor now he became a junior partner uh and not at the highest level but at the level of Patna and Bihar politics BJP leaders would make comments about you know who's the real people who has always been the case in Bihar politics there's always been this kind of they'll be together because of Coalition problems but they would keep making these statements that's the that's the bihari way of doing politics is where you don't it's a no holds barred | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-13 | is where you don't it's a no holds barred issue when it comes to speaking your mind at least that's what my experience has been with I mean even with Lalu yadav and the others they would keep you know there was this acerbic comments that laluji would make about nitishti but they were together at one point of time during the despite so they were it was like you know two brothers in a joint family where they do talk so I would anyway let's get to the TMC part so you joined TMC at a point where TMC was expanding getting people across the board you know thinkers cricketers everybody was coming in and so one thought okay natural progression pavanji goes towards well you know TMC and then you leave the TMC again I'll tell you what's happened I'll be honest and candid with you with nitish yeast in the BJP Alliance uh people like me were wondering how to have one figure who could be Primus into Paris first among equals in | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-14 | who could be Primus into Paris first among equals in terms of being able to coordinate and bring together the opposition which a democracy needs which the Prime Minister himself says that our democracy must have and after her dramatic Victory in West Bengal for a third time we felt that she has the fire the energy the belief of perhaps scaling up the TMC even perhaps with the new name a new constitution on a let's say a wider level than just Bengal oh really but uh a new name that was that was I mean in the sense that the TMC is was largely a Bengal Centric sure but Mamta G's personal uh image was I think larger than just a regional leader so how could we leverage that okay in a democratic way and actually when I joined the truth I had not gone to join us and this is a very interesting story because perhaps I am saying it for the first time publicly and I say that's good respect and regard and admiration for her warmth I went | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-15 | and regard and admiration for her warmth I went to call on her on her one of her visits to Delhi and she said to me pavanji party so I was non-committed she said then she said and she went inside because she's a very spontaneous and affectionate person and came out with the shawl which is okay and she pushed around my shoulder okay you were there no no I mean and then a photograph was taken and to be honest at some level she knew that I was thinking of how to reconfigure the opposition where she could play a pivotal role but I had not joined the TMC okay and then she said after the meeting was over I'll see you off to the gate to the car when I went there with her there were 50 press people and she said pavanji and she was even more kind after two three weeks she made me the vice president of the party but over a course of time I realized for the variety of reasons that Mamta ji's Energies | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-16 | variety of reasons that Mamta ji's Energies required to be in terms of the opposition to her in Bengal in terms of the needs of the TMC uh the vision she has the vision Abhishek has uh that she is perhaps by compulsion very Bengal Centric I'm not saying that she's not recognized as a national leader but very Bengal Centric and in a Bengal Centric party I didn't see a role for myself so with great politeness I resigned so um of course everybody talks about opposition unity and my personal view is right now it's it's a phantom concept it's not happening you've been working on this behind the scenes looking for somebody who could lead it who could be there everybody knows that there's a whole bunch of people whether it's Sita ramji or you or PK or hunting for this leader so when you join the TMC the idea was that oh okay there seems to be some kind of Meeting of Minds that she would lead it but | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-17 | of Meeting of Minds that she would lead it but as you say that she's very Bengal Centric and uh do you see nitish ji because you know see uh look at it it wasn't as if when we see the earlier experiments it wasn't as a VP Singh had a national image it wasn't as a gujjal Saab had or or David gowda or chandrashekhar or Charan Singh you know none of them had this pan-india appeal but our politics is such in our country it happens do you see nitish as a factor who would be acceptable for this pan-india image because now it's pre-election positioning because that's what elections have become now it's personality oriented do you see nitish having the capability let's take the nitish ji and then I'll talk of the opposite sure see nitish ji has been chief minister of Bihar for 17 years he is a Grassroots politician from a very humble background who's risen to the top in Bihar has been a cabinet | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-18 | to the top in Bihar has been a cabinet minister at the center in fact in atal bihari vajpayee's government uh has been an MP in both the Lok Sabha and the Raj Sabha so any comes from the Hindi heart belt in terms of a large state in the in the heart belt not that that is an essential prerequisite uh he also has that certain seniority whereby without being a threat to any other leader he could if he so desires uh make the attempt the seniority and the experience of trying to weave together some kind of pan-indian coordination with a larger opposition ah let us call it a greater acceptability Factor he has good relations with almost every political he was in he met with kcr with kejriwal with Rahul I mean you know are they all on board not the way you can build opposition Unity I always say Smitha that what we need is not arithmetic Unity what we need is organic Unity which is an organic Unity based on strategy coordination minimum coupon program | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-19 | an organic Unity based on strategy coordination minimum coupon program one candidate from the opposition against the ruling BJP uh a certain Narrative of its own and not only criticism of the BJP and an acceptable face not necessarily the supreme leader but who in a way acts as a PO for the opposition so this way just meeting people is not the way an opposition unity and for remember we have very little time for 2024. it didn't happen even for the presidential election vice president is not the word this is not the way yeah right now if you ask me I'm not very optimistic for the opposition the reason is very simple it is scattered it is in silos it is an opposition which is at war with itself let us give you two three examples the congress party opposes the ah perhaps even more than the BJP right uh in West Bengal the principal opposition to the largest party against the TMC was the BJP and the principal opposition was the TMC but the Congress and the cpin | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-20 | was the TMC but the Congress and the cpin yeah fought against freedomur let's take Telangana kcr is the obvious opponent not of the Congress now their principle is the BJP but the Congress is fighting kcr rather than uniting so just by speaking or meeting on a stage and holding your hands up you are not going to get opposition Unity it has to be a radically out of the box program so pavanchi don't you think that um with the Congress what happens is it's an existential crisis if they don't fight kcr right agreed that it's primarily uh BJP versus uh TRS in Telangana but if they don't fight kcr look at what he's saying it's an opposition United opposition minus the Congress that's what kcr says so they have to fight the TRS when it comes to uh West Bengal can you tell the Congress already they've seeded space it's gone they're no longer there in the Reckoning way so everywhere you and with the app they've gone | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-21 | so everywhere you and with the app they've gone in Congress in Punjab so if they don't fight these Regional parties or semi-regional parties it's an existential crisis for them angry yeah let me say three things and I know Jed arms view or that of the Congress leadership for which he speaks is about Congress not seeding space right uh and I completely understand that point of view Congress is the mother of all political parties in India and there was a time when like a banyan tree it had Roots across the country and therefore its desire to once again resurrect that past is understandable however there are in my view there are two combination of a dual strategy one is the long term where the Congress is entirely entitled over in due course to resurrect Itself by making the internal reforms which the party deems to be essential the second is the short-term strategy 2024 2024 where without diluting or compromising upon your larger goal in terms of the imminent challenge you a | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-22 | goal in terms of the imminent challenge you a dovetail your larger Ambitions with the imperative short-term priorities so I believe in with great respect that in the Congress they they need to see this aspect because when the opposition is fragmented or divided it divides the votes of the opposition and the only beneficiary is the BJP third Point let me say to you and again with great respect to KCRG I don't think you can have an opposition without the Congress now why do I say it I see it because there are at least 200 seats parliamentary where one on one where the Congress is the principal opponent of the BJP now no other regional party is in a position to fight the BJP so ideally a reformed or a vitalized revitalized congress fights those elections because that's the Bonanza for the BJP BJP has a strike rate of 96 against the Congress so either the Congress or the entire opposition unites to strengthen the Congress as the principal opponent to the BJP in | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-23 | Congress as the principal opponent to the BJP in these 200 seats if you have a non-congress opposition that's really ambitious can you imagine today if you or Sita ramji or anybody who's been working towards an opposition Unity for now over five years I think if I'm not wrong is to get kcr Sharad pavar Mamta akhilesh mayawati I who have I left out tejaswi uh all of them to get together and say okay let's make Congress as a stronger party to take on the BJP even the 150 hundred twenty hundred and seventy seats to strengthen because we are not there so let's do this do you see any of them swallowing their egos because it's become such an egotistical thing now in the in the opposition and that's the reason they're fragmented so that's why I said I'm not very optimistic but I that does not mean that it's not doable I'll tell you why politics is dynamic let me give you two examples 1977. or before from | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-24 | me give you two examples 1977. or before from the emergency in 75 till 77 the opposition was rudderless I mean there were leaders different parties ashram in Patna who woke up and became a cementing Gloop for an opposition I am not saying in terms of very successful experiment but it was good enough to decimate the congress party post the emergency let us take another example which seems even more Invincible Rajiv Gandhi comes in 84 with 404 MPS I mean he seemed to be there forever and in 87 eight people meet in a drawing room in Delhi and you know who they are will be saying around nehru ramdhan and so on so and out of nowhere a VP Singh effort middle class Messiah to take on yes I'm not saying I'm not saying it will happen and Let Me Not For a Moment devalue the popularity of narend modiji he is right now undoubtedly do you forget the Towering political figure in the country do you remember the Anna movement also | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-25 | in the country do you remember the Anna movement also so when Anna Azari came everybody I mean not everybody but there was a section which thought that okay here's another person like a JP you know who could but he he fizzled out just like VP Singh fizzled out at one point of time now there's this talk that could it be nitish but there is one lot which mandalization of politics agitation politics based politics [Music] no there is a serious challenge now I'm not saying it's Nick bundle politics or let us say caste cohesion on certain issues of interest to those castes it is a factor but also we must understand that today that mandal instrument is being used against a political party which is three or four great intrinsic strengths which is the BJP first they have a very popular leader secondly they have a strong quarter and organization if you combine it with the RSS card also thirdly it's a 24 into 7 electoral machine yeah and fourthly they have whether you agree with it | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-26 | and fourthly they have whether you agree with it or not a narrative which essentially consists of three or four elements Hindu politics hyper nationalism and I must say partly successful welfarism where targeted help has reached the poorest sections of society so now if mandal politics by itself is pitted against this it's not enough you have to do something more so this Congress isra is supposedly that to Galvanize uh the kadas and once the Cutters are galvanized then fix a narrative maybe a year or two late in doing this but then there was kovid or whatever but that is the idea that the Congress has that uh you know that they need to understandably so that get their cars but uh and you see at every point of time they have to battle a a party which as you say has very strong card or has a narrative knows how to take on the opposition and things and the opposition looks divided now there's another line which says that this pre-election uh Unity moves | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-27 | another line which says that this pre-election uh Unity moves is a lost game let's not do that it happens after the election these this fragmented parties get together and we've seen UPA one upa2 it works so let's do that let's all get like our our own little little groups let let kcr get his let Mamta get hers so once it's all done then like you had a mulayam or like you had a hurricane Singh surjit getting together and post-election now I frankly Smitha I'm not in favor of mere Jordan politics if the opposition does not put together a compelling narrative which appeals to people merely and series of arithmetical permutations and combinations will not create a convincing political entity as opposed to the BJP it will not okay so there are legitimate discontents the opposition has not put its act together I tell you price rise it's hurting people I know for a fact the middle class has been reduced by almost 22 percent the poor have become | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-28 | reduced by almost 22 percent the poor have become poorer we live in a very unequal Society where one percent of the rich own disproportionately the wealth and assets of this while the poor have gone become poorer there are no doubt achievements of the current government but in spite of that the global hunger index India has gone down rather than up so there are legitimate discounts if you were to write your middle class book again you would revisit it and maybe write a different story I'll say I'll tell you why I may write a different story because I know that Mr naren modi's strategy to begin with in his Ascent to the Pinnacle of the BJP was to First influence the middle class because it has a ripple effect across the country the middle class is a pan-indian class and he did that most successfully as a strong decisive leader with a vision against the lackluster and somewhat unimpressive performance of upa2 so he emerged and the middle class loves a messiah and he | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-29 | and the middle class loves a messiah and he came as one now if the middle class is disillusioned the BJP needs to worry because you can only do so much of hindutva people will go with hindut because I think there are reasons for a certain degree of Hindu backlash in my latest book The Greatest great Hindu civilization where I analyze those reasons and I accept the validity of some of them and I cannot on another occasion or whenever you want go through each of them so there is a resonance to a certain reclaiming of Hindu Pride but you differentiate between but I think the same Hindus don't want that don't want it instability Law and Order situations and uh because Hindus are not jihadis in fact most citizens in this country except for for a certain Fringe which exists in all religion want to get on with their lives you'll be surprised during the height of the ayodhya agitation in 1990 to the traders of faizabad and | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-30 | in 1990 to the traders of faizabad and ayodhya went on strike I have mentioned it in my book being Indian and when they were asked they said yeah so that dhanda bit is there everywhere it was there in Gujarat it was there in so those who are the I'll tell you when we were when this whole ayodhya movement happened and the ratyatras were out and on and I saw one of our television producers we've gone to dinner to his house and he had this sticker on his door which said and I was like it was a way of life for all of us right we never felt the need to say it but that comes from this sense of entitlement because our Hinduism or our being a Hindu was never in threat but he was a he was a kashmiri Hindu yeah his identity as a Hindu was under threat for for a long long time so he needed to say it so I understand where so for me it was a shocker and I | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-31 | where so for me it was a shocker and I understood this this entitled Hindu that I was who never felt her Hindu or entitled upper caste that I never understood the mandal agitation I had to ask like what is because why we were Urban we were Cosmopolitan we never felt nobody asked us and I never this easy uh uppercast life that one leads where caste doesn't affect me it didn't affect me it's only when the mandal agitation happened that I realized how entitled my life was how cushy my life was that I didn't face any atrocity so I couldn't understand that right the same way till that a hindutva movement happened with the rathyatra I didn't understand the angst of the Hindus who were under that thread similarly I can't even begin to understand or I couldn't till I saw the Muslims being you know atrocities on them so unless you experience that to to say that oh this is uncalled for anyway let me now | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-32 | oh this is uncalled for anyway let me now that I'm talking about that I have to speak to you because you're essentially a delhiwala what do you have to say to this whole latians Delhi Khan Market gang because you are you are a card Market gang I'm a Khan Market gang right we love to go to the card Market we love to go to Khan market and shop and eat and have discussions so do you feel that okay maybe they are right we are entitled we were this Khan Market gang without a doubt without a doubt let me tell you when you refer you give you can give it any label latience can't Market gang the fact is that there is a small but minuscule class which are the beneficiaries of inherited power and privilege it also is a fact that they are vociferous in their views but visibly cut off from the mainstream of life of the common masses outside the Metropolis thirdly it's a class which in a way inherited power from the | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-33 | a class which in a way inherited power from the departing British although the country won Independence the immediate beneficiaries were those who were already positioned to take advantage of Independence their English was good their fluency in English was good they had been to good schools their parents were well to do and therefore the opportunities that they got were available to them without competition when I gave the foreign service exam you could give the exam only in English yeah out of my batch of the Foreign Service there were 10 boys from Saint Stephens it's unfair you have to democratically empower others now the problem with latians is and the Khan Market gang is that they're so convinced about the validity of their point of view that I call them reflex liberists liberalists which was just speaking about Hinduism for instance they are strong Believers in secularism but they have not read the ramayana except as a comic they believe that you know they know Shakespeare more than kalidas so I'm just saying that | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-34 | more than kalidas so I'm just saying that they are cut off from the life impulses of the country a lot in the mea let me tell you this one example I'm interrupting you but there was uh we're going to cover the EU Summit and yashwanzana was the EM external affairs minister and uh vajpaiji was the Prime Minister and uh the briefing happened like you always used to do as XP uh heads with the external publicity whoever was the jsxp I don't remember exactly who it was but he's then gave the questions and the question answer session continued and it was Mr yashwan Sinha answering all the questions and so at one point of time I I said and the entire media team which was covering it all these English speaking people who cover and mind you I was part of that they giggled and they laughed oh come on you can translate it why do you need that right so then the jsxp said challenge so I went up to yashwan Sinha and | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-35 | challenge so I went up to yashwan Sinha and I said that both but you come from a Hindi band do you understand that there are Hindi channels which will not use this won't use this uh because it's too much of a pain EU Summit European Union because of whatever happened at that Summit there was some incident but no I don't elaborate but I even politicians let me tell you when they reached that age when they reached that uh you know become an external affairs minister forget their Roots it's only now you know when people have realized that we need to be aware I to learned how to speak in Hindi only when I realized that I'm not reaching my audience it's not my language I'm a South Indian but I learned how to speak fluently in Hindi as much as I can because of this this whole latians gang Khan Market it is a reality isn't it indeed and let me tell you in my case I went to South Columbus yeah | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-36 | in my case I went to South Columbus yeah exactly I went to Saint Xavier's I went to Saint Stephens I could have become a saint but at the end of it but I am proud that today or even from much earlier I can speak fluently in Hindi write in Hindi I have translated Urdu but I had once a boss in mea who tell me on the intercom I say old chap there is an HMT type of guy here Hindi medium type and once he even used an expression called um2 and then it's called umt Uh do medium type you know can you deal with him so this kind of elitism you believe very well I know exactly who you mean but I'm not going to say the name well this kind of elitism cut off from the reality of India which by the way and this is my foot now doesn't mean that whatever the so-called latin's gang or carmont could gang believes in is wrong but they need to develop greater authenticity credibility in | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-37 | but they need to develop greater authenticity credibility in voicing it right otherwise it appears that they are in a sense prisoners of a past which and of a value system with of with which they they are unable to interpret for the masses so tell me this you know you've written an article also I read recently about uh about the bureaucracy uh writing letters suddenly finding spine or the lack of it whatever you might I mean you have two views on that about because obviously you will appreciate letters written by a certain set of bureaucrats against a certain government and a certain set of bureaucrats who are writing against those Bureau grads what is happening it never used to happen right bureaucrats never got together they were so divided as a lot now suddenly these letter letter words are happening no no because I think the most I mean unless they get more involved and I respect their views a group of bureaucrats supporting something or a group of bureaucrats | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-38 | supporting something or a group of bureaucrats criticizing something I think I I respect it but it contributes little and I think a certain greater degree of activism needs to happen because what happens a group of bureaucrats right a letter critical of the government the government collects its own supporters among bureaucrats and they write a counterlet and so it's a pretty sterile kind of uh war going on Chambers don't you think that they are in Echo Chambers but I know that many of those who write this letter are people who cannot become part of active politics but they have their own views a certain conviction and they believe that certain things need to be preserved or certain things need to be defended and I respect them for that but I think what we need is a greater effort see not everybody can write columns not everybody goes on television so if they get together and write a letter is that okay is that fine I think it's a democracy people can write letters sure | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-39 | think it's a democracy people can write letters sure okay and and I appreciate that okay my column which you referred to was about what happens to officers and bureaucrats when they are in service and I don't make a great virtue of this my father was in the ICS and and to take a stand which they believe to be correct even if they felt that the political Master may not like it one in a million maybe you know came to them far more easily it's a small service it was a service which still was independent and I know of politicians from the stories I heard from my father who respected the officer for that because they would rather have someone who gives free and fair advice than someone who's a ah reflects yes man but today it's not just today no pavanji I I mean I've also seen it I mean we're all products of the same system but it's always been there those bureaucrats who who defied or forget about even Defiance even advised uh a politician | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-40 | forget about even Defiance even advised uh a politician in a certain manner didn't get Plum postings and didn't have uh post retirement benefits jobs it's a system which has continued all through where is that any change perhaps it was always there but the degree of uh the the gradual compromise of the bureaucrat where he has become an accessory to the politician because both are beneficiaries the politician is happy he's got a bureaucrat who endorses what he thinks the bureaucrat is happy for the dividends of this kind of blind blind loyalty everybody is Happy okay so I mean I think it's a question of degree I just like while I'm concluding you you mentioned in one of your articles that it's time to introspect the moral fiber of the country um tell me when when you say this like as parents uh we expect it out of our children right uh our parents expected it out of us but in practice where does that come about because you know it's many say that this whole | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-41 | about because you know it's many say that this whole in politics morality is something which is which is dead long ago and it's it's an overrated uh virtue do you do you think that's the case I I must say that uh I can't say I'm aware of the inherent Corruptions and immorality which some people justify as impossible to differentiate from politics there is money power there is unaccountable money which in my view is the root of all corruption in the country but that apart I think the young in this country Smitha needs some role model a role model who stands for a certain idealism principles personal integrity and is willing to demonstrate it because otherwise the feeling grows foreign and that I feel is bad for a country which is not a country it's a civilization it goes back to the dawn of time in terms of Ethics in terms of idealisms in terms of principles in terms of conviction there are few civilizations that can match this country and for it to lose | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-42 | that can match this country and for it to lose its moral Anchorage of the difference between right and wrong in my view is a tragedy so do we expect it out of any one individual and does that individual become like a religious Guru a political Guru a spiritual Guru do we seek that what do we seek when we seek this moral fiber to somebody to enhance or to bring out morality in society what do we do it's difficult because I realize people and politicians are people also and they operate within a certain system where the end becomes far more important than the means let me be honest however a nation which is bereft of idealism uh and I can only quote again it's a cliched example of what Mahatma Gandhi by the sheer didn't of his personality and personal example kind of bequeath to this country at least for the initial years after our independence a certain let's say reticence as far as wealth goes a certain awareness of the number of people | zj0j5MHSe3U |
33930af4dd76-43 | goes a certain awareness of the number of people who still are poor certain ability to say no to personal gain at the cost of public good these were value systems and over a time if everything becomes transactional where are those young on this country who shall be world leaders at one time I think it's bad for them that's all I feel thank you very much for speaking with us pavanji it's been an absolute pleasure now the pleasure is mine thank you so much hope you enjoyed listening or watching uh to this interview with Mr Pawan Varma on Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe to whichever platform you've seen it or heard it in namaste thank you [Music] | zj0j5MHSe3U |
b9595f31e208-0 | as my grandmother would use a word for him he's a misna is arvind kejr he is the biggest misna that you have to watch out for and I remember in 2008 going to modi's house in gandhinagar after which I wrote an article so it's all published material where I said one day this man will be the Prime Minister I may be allowed any political ideology I can practice any religion I can eat what I want who is someone else to tell me as long as it's not illegal the tragedy is the left believes that indian-ness is nationalistic and nationalism is right-wing they forget that patriotism is the last Refuge of this government not nationalism Namaste jaihin welcome to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash today's guest is Mr suhail Seth he's a brand strategist he's a writer author uh you've seen him on television debates he talks about every subject under the sun IL is No Holds Barred kind of a speaker he will say the most | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-1 | Barred kind of a speaker he will say the most outrageous things on television on camera he believes in what he speaks there was only this one short period where he kind of didn't talk about and even to date uh he will not speak about it when he came under Cloud to some extent because of the Mito allegations against him and since it is uh you know he doesn't want to speak about it uh he agreed to do this interview with the uh with the understanding that we will not talk about this issue and he will speak about it when the time is right he says thank you very much for coming to our studio suhail um nobody will believe that this is the first time I'm meeting you officially I mean I must reveal this little bit that I remember when I was in college you were senior to me you were in Calcutta I was in Delhi and uh we were going for an inter College competition and we got to know that oh there's a team coming in from | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-2 | to know that oh there's a team coming in from Calcutta go foreign we were like absolute mince meat and when I saw our teams competing I said no chance this guy's going to win everything and that's what happening these days when we see you on television is like doesn't matter what the topic is you just make mincemeat about everybody but you know uh thanks to Delhi colleges I got my first motorcycle I bought my first maruti in those days Deluxe because of the weddings these were the only colleges which paid cash except for Saint Stephen's Rich gave you book vouchers otherwise everyone was paying cash but you let me start from the beginning your quintessentially a Calcutta boy you take great pride in talking about uh you being you know from Calcutta the the love that you have for that City uh we'll come to the Delhi aspect later tell us about your life in Calcutta so I was born uh in Calcutta and my grandfather was one of the | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-3 | in Calcutta and my grandfather was one of the first ever Indians to do a joint venture with Roche Pharmaceuticals uh you know the Swiss farmer Pharma company and he had a factory in barrackpore and then the daxolite movement began and when we were growing up so I was all I was seven years old 1970. and my grandfather's closest friend was Phil Marshall manekshaw so at that time general manager was the gocnc Eastern command and he told my grandfather we're talking about the 70s now 70s he told my grandfather who was called gangaram he says gangram move him out of Calcutta and send him a boarding school so in 71 the year of the Bangladesh Liberation War I was packed off to sin Joseph's in anythal but Calcutta is what gave me the the anchoring and which I tell all young people the only difference between Calcutta and other cities is they don't care who you are how much you own how much you earn as long as you can | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-4 | own how much you earn as long as you can do two things you can speak well and you can be interesting and obviously if you're a foodie it's it's the icing on the cake and we were encouraged to speak to speak out to speak against the establishment I remember when I came back to Calcutta from nainital uh the school principal in lamartia was accused of theft of cameras and you know I Rose in the assembly and we created a huge Ruckus and my school time was taken him you know the house captain Thai got that but we didn't care so also at that time remembers whether I you know you're obviously much younger but in those days theater was the elixir of life so I started doing plays at the age of 12. so by the time I finished with the Calcutta leg I had already done about 167 plays Indira Gandhi had banned Bhutto by Ice johar yeah ice Jordan auditioned me in Bombay and when she banned it I went | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-5 | in Bombay and when she banned it I went to Jyoti Babu I never knew him didn't know him at all both of us students went to him and I said Mr Basu you run West Bengal how can Mrs Gandhi stop a play from being staged he says I'm giving you a permission you stage the play so we were growing up Smitha in environment which allowed you to challenge which allowed you to disagree without being disagreeable and it allowed you the fortitude with which you could face the world only because you had knowledge to back you up but now in in today's India or today's world I wouldn't say just India it's all vocism it's everything has to be politically right you say one word this way or that way it could be either an fir against you or the cancer culture do you agree with that that we are in a very difficult phase yeah and you know I have to say two things here Narendra Modi was my briefing client along with jaitly when I | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-6 | was my briefing client along with jaitly when I was doing the vajpay campaign I've seen Modi in action obviously jaitly sadly passed away and I remember in 2008 going to modi's house in gandhinagar after which I wrote an article so it's all published material where I said one day this man will be the prime minister I have seen the retribution that say the top most person in India has faced because of this canceled culture and vocism the good part is Modi ignores it as he should I was in New York and last week there was an issue related to Charles elmy and people ask you know she's the BJP spokesperson in case people don't I should just ignore it vocism and to the organizers okay look there is always there will always be people who will pursue an agenda of their own there's no bigger intolerance than being intolerant and seemingly coming across a tolerant so the most intolerant people are the ones actually who praise and who you know | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-7 | are the ones actually who praise and who you know espouse the virtues of tolerance for instance I may be allowed any political ideology I can practice any religion I can eat what I want who is someone else to tell me as long as it's not illegal okay many years ago I was asked on a program why do you smoke I said I smoke cigarettes oh it's bad for your health I said benefits made illegal I'll stop so I have a very clinical view on these matters and I think more the more we succumb the more they will trample you see to say uh don't succumb uh when it's an individual but uh it's become so serious now you anybody uh eats non-vegetarian or eats beef cancel culture you eat the thing is that why do you talk about eating beef but you don't eat talk about pork they have a way of you know there is a there I can well understand one side saying it but the cancel culture is what is scary because the right | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-8 | the cancel culture is what is scary because the right wing which was a victim of that cancer Culture by the left now says that hey you did this to us so we'll do it to you so while while I understand where they come from where does this end if this is how it's going to be if you recall in those before uh the Modi era before 9 2014 um the reason I say Modi era is because you know the right wing started asserting itself a little bit say between 2014 to 2016 and talked about this whole Khan Market gang and how they had got a kind of a vicious grip over over media over over the think tanks over seminar circuit everything was if you were even mildly right-wing there's this I remember meeting uh an author in um in Washington DC he goes with the Twitter handle called great bong his name is also arnab and he told me that Publishers wouldn't even consider his books at one point of time when he was writing or even his articles | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-9 | of time when he was writing or even his articles because there was like toned down your right wing otherwise we can't give you op-ed space we like what you write but we can't give you op-ed space this is how it used to be before 2014 I met him before 2014. but sure enough 2014 comes and everything changes he finds a publisher he finds operate space but there is the other thing that happens right the right wing is now out there writing their orbit pieces and they are now critical of the left wing guy so where does this end how does it how does their balance come about so I think that's a brilliant question now let me tell you where it will end nowhere because it's going to perpetuate itself until people like you and I will see through uh the nonsense and we'll be able to sift through the the facade what is happening is as you rightly said there is an assertion this is the era of assertion you're asserting yourself they're asserting themselves | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-10 | you're asserting yourself they're asserting themselves also remember liberals have a very fine way of assertion they believe in Social ostracization yeah their right wing is still dumb enough not to know how to do it I've always said that there's no point getting upset with the New York Times The Washington Post you either engage with them or you let them be the day you tell someone I'm upset with you means that person is relevant to you irrelevance weather is the worst thing you know many years ago I think it was George Bernard show who says you can love me or hate me but don't be indifferent okay indifference is what the right wing must now learn to practice also I have a sneaky feeling that many a Time the right wing sometimes wants the endorsement of the Liberals yes I agree with you which by the way is suicidal why would you want the endorsement of anyone and I've always said you know I was asked this question uh in New York people said oh | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-11 | asked this question uh in New York people said oh but Modi I said when I last checked he's won two general elections we are a democracy if you decry him you're actually decrying democracy and you're decrying the Mandate of a large section of Indians who have voted him he has not sneaked through the back door I can understand when say a think tanker or a policy wonk uh says that this is not the India that ought to be because think tankers tend to think they know a lot of what India ought to be what corporate India ought to be what media ought to be they are the ones who are the gyanese what about journalists how can journalists not accept a mandate If Today Rahul Gandhi wins three election state election say he wins Gujarat he wins Himachal Pradesh he wins the next election that happens the state election that happens if he wins that will you continue to will anybody any in their same mind continue to you know say that he's | SkzNRtty1uA |
b9595f31e208-12 | their same mind continue to you know say that he's abusing nut job he's at this he's a that no he's winning elections which means people will absolutely right so I can't understand journalists who you know say that this is not right but you know um what did you see between 1952 and 2014. you saw political patronage of the worst kind you you replace the Royals with the political royalty and they gave you lodges they took you on Air India one they allowed you their junkets even atalji allowed this yeah what did Modi say he says I don't care and what Modi has done is what these guys needed a long time ago now I'll give you examples I know of several people Smitha who using their journalistic tag or the accreditation was staying in government-sponsored Bungalows and homes without paying a dime why they were close to the past that be you saw there was a political there was a famous so-called famous lady journalist on television who said I make | SkzNRtty1uA |