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In Ohio, voters overturned a controversial bill limiting union rights. With one race still too close to call in Virginia, Republicans in that state can still seize the senate. Mississippians elected a new governor and voted down an amendment on "personhood." Ken Rudin, Political Junkie columnist, NPR Anna Greenberg, senior vice president and principal at Greenberg, Quinlan, Rosner Research Alex Vogel, partner at Mehlman, Vogel, Castagnetti Julie Rovner, health policy correspondent, NPR | NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan, in Washington. New allegations and blanket denials from Herman Cain. He and his seven rivals return to the GOP debate stage in Michigan tonight. And Democrats celebrate in Ohio. It's Wednesday and time for a...</s>UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The people have spoken.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...edition of the Political Junkie.</s>PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: There you go again.</s>VICE PRESIDENT WALTER MONDALE: When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad: Where's the beef?</s>SENATOR BARRY GOLDWATER: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.</s>SENATOR LLOYD BENTSON: Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.</s>PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON: You don't have Nixon to kick around anymore.</s>GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN: Lipstick.</s>GOVERNOR SARAH PALIN: PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: But I'm the decider.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Every Wednesday, Political Junkie Ken Rudin joins us to recap the week in politics, and there's so much to dissect this week. It's a supersized edition. Issue 2 dies in the Buckeye State, personhood goes down in Mississippi, same-day registration survives in Maine, a recall in Arizona, two governors elected, a flock of big-city mayors.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In a few minutes, Alex Vogel and Anna Greenberg on who's got the momentum and what we can expect from an unhappy electorate a year from now. And we'll talk with NPR's Julie Rovner on the politics of personhood. But first, Political Junkie Ken Rudin joins us, as usual, here in Studio 3A. And as usual, we begin with a trivia question. Hey, Ken.</s>KEN RUDIN: Hi, Neal. Happy day after.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Happy day after.</s>KEN RUDIN: Okay, well since nobody got last week's trivia question and nobody got a T-shirt, we're going to have two winners today, and thus two T-shirts.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Woo-hoo.</s>KEN RUDIN: Okay. So, okay, Joe Paterno announced his retirement today, which comes as Penn State is embroiled in this ugly scandal. Paterno is a long-time Republican, but he's never - Republicans have always wanted him to run for office, but he never has.</s>KEN RUDIN: But, name the last major college football coach who ran for governor and the last one who ran for the Senate. So that's two different people, two different answers, and of course...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Two T-shirts.</s>KEN RUDIN: Of course.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So if you think you know the answer to this week's trivia question, the last major college football coach to run for governor of a state and the last one to run for United States Senate, two different persons, give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. The winner, of course, gets a fabulous Political Junkie no-prize T-shirt. And so Ken, in the meantime, we begin, when we can, with actual votes. Some actual votes yesterday.</s>KEN RUDIN: What happened?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There was something going in Ohio, Issue 2.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, that is the big story, and that's the one where, of course, after the Republicans took control of everything in Ohio - as they did in many states around the country in 2010 - John Kasich and the Republican legislature put this bill, passed this bill, basically, called Senate Bill 5, in which they severely curtailed collective bargaining rights for public employees.</s>KEN RUDIN: Now, the labor unions, which have been considered pretty dormant, they were certainly not much of a factor in 2010. They kind of sprung to life. They raised some $30 million to defeat this measure, and the surprise is not that the measure went down to defeat, because most people thought it would. But it went down 61-39, and that's a big - that was a big thing.</s>KEN RUDIN: And everybody's trying to say what this means for 2012. I don't know what it means for 2012. I don't know if it means anything for Scott Walker, the governor of Wisconsin, who's up on a recall vote, in a recall effort in Wisconsin. But certainly, it's good news for the organized labor and the Democrats.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In the meantime, we'll have more about the personhood issue in Mississippi that also went down to defeat by a surprising margin. More on that later in the program.</s>KEN RUDIN: That's defining a human being. Once you turn off the light in the bedroom, that's when life begins, right.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So speaking of recalls, though, there was an interesting election yesterday in the state of Arizona.</s>KEN RUDIN: Yes, and Russell Pearce is the State Senate majority leader, and he's the guy who basically put Arizona on the map with this pretty strict anti-illegal immigration measure. He's been the force behind it. That's basically the reputation that Arizona has, is in part because of Russell Pearce.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, he was defeated pretty handily, I think, 53 to 47 by Jerry Lewis - who is very popular in France, by the way. They love him in France. But Jerry Lewis is also a Republican. So it's not that he was beaten by the left, but maybe perhaps by Republicans who said we may have gone a little bit too far, here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And let's continue. Republicans hope to take control of the State Senate in Virginia. If they did that in elections yesterday, they would have effective control of the House, the Senate and, of course, the governor's office.</s>KEN RUDIN: And perhaps putting Bob McDonnell on the 2012 ticket. What they did is Republicans basically - some are very close, but it looks like Republicans needed two State Senate pick-ups, and they got two State Senate pick-ups. So it looks like in Virginia, in the State Senate, it is now 20 to 20. Now, of course, there's a lieutenant governor in Virginia who's a Republican, Bill Bolling. So the Republicans, they think, do have the tie-breaking vote.</s>KEN RUDIN: But again, the Democrats drew these lines. So, in a sense, it is a victory for the Republican Party.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So speaking of redistricting, It now appears that the courts are going to be drawing the new congressional lines in the state of Texas because, well, there's no way that the trial over the lines drawn by Republicans there is going to end in time for, well, next year's elections.</s>KEN RUDIN: Yeah, and Republicans are not happy with that result, because of course they would rather have a Republican legislature and Governor Rick Perry pass this redistricting bill. And basically, Texas gets four new seats, but the way the Republicans drew it, only one was guaranteed for Democratic pick-up, and obviously a heavily Hispanic seat. So I think the Democrats were happy that the courts are going to draw these lines.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Gubernatorial races yesterday in Mississippi and Kentucky went the way everybody expected.</s>KEN RUDIN: Not a surprise at all. In Kentucky, Steve Beshear, the Democratic incumbent, was re-elected to a second term, despite high unemployment. But only once has the Republican Party won the governorship in Kentucky since 1967, even though Republicans seem to win everything else - certainly the Senate seats and the presidential race, for the most part. But Beshear won pretty handily.</s>KEN RUDIN: And in Mississippi, you know, everybody was talking about Johnny DuPree and the history-making opportunity he had, the first African-American to head a major party for candidate for governor in Mississippi history. But Phil Bryant - who is Haley Barbour's heir apparent, he's the lieutenant governor - won with 61 percent. That's the largest number - largest percentage that a Republican has ever gotten in the state.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Haley Barbour term-limited, so he could not run for re-election. We had in Oregon - excuse me - a primary to replace David Wu, who's resigned from Congress.</s>KEN RUDIN: Because of a sexual impropriety. I mean, you know, if you look at the front page of the newspapers today, I mean, all you're seeing is stories about sexual improprieties, a very disheartening day of news. But anyway, David Wu, the Republicans, this is the first congressional district in Oregon. Republicans haven't won that seat since 1972. But the race has been pretty close.</s>KEN RUDIN: So the two parties named their candidates yesterday. The general election is January 31st.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In Maine, let's - skipping across to the other corner of the country.</s>KEN RUDIN: I remember the Maine.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You remember the Maine. That's - there was an issue on the ballot there to overturn a law that banned same-day voter registration.</s>KEN RUDIN: Right. This is again - it seems like it's a pushback. I don't know what it means, but it's a pushback against what - part of the Republican gains of 2010. And you had the governor in Maine getting rid of same-day voting registration, and the voters yesterday put it back on.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that's seen as a victory for Democrats.</s>KEN RUDIN: That's correct.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And there were a flock of cities that elected mayors yesterday. And I guess the big news is in San Francisco.</s>KEN RUDIN: Yes, because if you look at all the other cities - we're talking about Philadelphia, Houston, Baltimore, Indianapolis, the incumbents, or the incumbent party, were re-elected. But in San Francisco, it's interesting. Edwin Lee, the city's first Asian-American mayor, he became mayor when Gavin Newsom left to become lieutenant governor. He finished first, but you need 50 percent to win in San Francisco.</s>KEN RUDIN: But they have this instant runoff system there where voters rank the top three candidates, first, second and third choice, and then by eliminating the lowest candidate, you'll see who the winner is. It looks like it will be Edwin Lee, but we won't - may not know for a day or two.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Those of us who ever covered European politics know the terrors and nightmares caused by the single transferable vote, which is what the system there is in San Francisco. In the meantime, we have some people on the line who think they know the answer to this week's trivia question, and that is the last big-time football coach to run for governor and the last one to run for United States Senate - two different people, two T-shirts. Let's go first...</s>KEN RUDIN: I could give a hint. They're both men.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Marcus on the line, calling us from Iowa.</s>MARCUS: Yes, for governor, Tom Osborne of Nebraska.</s>KEN RUDIN: That is correct.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ding, ding, ding.</s>KEN RUDIN: He was the - he was governor - University of Nebraska, great football coach. He was elected to Congress in 2000, left to run for governor, lost the primary to Dave Heineman. But he ran for governor, 2006. Tom Osborne is the correct answer for governor.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right, Marc. Stay on the line. We'll collect your particulars and send you out a Political Junkie no-prize T-shirt in exchange for your promise of a digital picture of yourself wearing it to be posted on our wall of shame.</s>MARCUS: Thanks very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And congratulations.</s>KEN RUDIN: First call, first call.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email. This is from Robert in Winston-Salem. He says Jack Kemp.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, Jack Kemp, of course, was a football player with San Diego Chargers and the Buffalo Bills, but he was never the - a college football coach, head coach.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Let's see if we can go next to - this is Ryan, Ryan with us from Norman, Oklahoma.</s>RYAN: Hi, Bud Wilkinson for senator in Oklahoma?</s>KEN RUDIN: And that is correct, also.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ding, ding, ding.</s>KEN RUDIN: Bud Wilkinson, the University of Oklahoma great head coach in the '50s and '60s. He ran for the Senate in 1964, lost to Fred Harris.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ryan, again hang on the line. We'll collect your particulars and send you out that no-prize T-shirt. Congratulations.</s>RYAN: All right, great.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right, two quick winners, there. In the meantime, there seems to be, still, a presidential contest going on for the nomination in the Republican Party. And the big news this week, another accuser came out to say that Herman Cain was engaged in sexual improprieties, verged on sexual assault, a lot of people did. This is a woman named Sharon Bialek, who held a news conference at the Friars Club in New York on Monday.</s>SHARON BIALEK: I want you, Mr. Cain, to come clean. Just admit what you did. Admit you were inappropriate to people.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Gloria Allred, her attorney, was also there. And Cain's campaign came back and said, wait a minute. We don't know who this person is.</s>KEN RUDIN: Yes. And then, of course, he said he absolutely - he denied all the allegations. It's absolutely not true. He never harassed anybody. And this is his word. But all we've been hearing is his word for the last couple of weeks. Now we've seen people come forward.</s>KEN RUDIN: Look, as we've argued on this show, there are many reasons to dismiss the Herman Cain candidacy. His numbers on the tax plan didn't add up. His views on abortion have over the - running around over the map, with seemingly pro-choice positions.</s>KEN RUDIN: But this is something - you know, as the Republican Party is less than two months from Iowa, the fact that they are coming closer and closer to naming their nominee, the voters are going to the polls, it's the last thing the Republican Party wants to be the focus. And, of course, the Republicans are debating tonight, CNBC, 8 p.m. Eastern Time at the University of - it's the Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan.</s>KEN RUDIN: And, you know, it's going to be about economic questions, but obviously, you'd think that questions about impropriety and Herman Cain will have to come up.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, they came up yesterday at a news conference in Scottsdale, Arizona, and Herman Cain was asked, as undignified as it might be, would he take a lie detector test.</s>HERMAN CAIN: I absolutely would. But I'm not going to do that unless I have a good reason to do that. I - that was one of the first comments that I made in watching this, to my staff. I've also shared that with my attorney. Of course I would be willing to do a lie detector test.</s>HERMAN CAIN: Secondly, I believe that the character and integrity of a candidate running for president should come under a microscope.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And will, no matter whether he wants it to or not. In any case, the identity of another accuser was disclosed yesterday. She said maybe we should all have a news conference and talk about what happened. This is a story that, unfortunately for Mr. Cain, is not going to go away.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ken Rudin, stay with us. When we come back, Anna Greenberg and Alex Vogel will help us look ahead 362 days, as we have an unhappy electorate. Then how come so many incumbents got re-elected yesterday? It's the TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. The official Political Junkie countdown stands at 362 days, nine hours, 40 minutes until Election Day, give or take a time zone or two. Ken Rudin's still adding that up on his fingers. He's with us, as he is every Wednesday. His latest column is up, and you can take a shot at his devilish ScuttleButton puzzle. That's all at npr.org/junkie. And Ken, did anybody - was anybody a winner in the ScuttleButton contest?</s>KEN RUDIN: It was a little easier last week, yes. I mean, there was picture button of Joe Louis. There were two buttons of Francis Cardinal Spellman. I'm not sure what he ran for. But anyway, the answer was the St. Louis Cardinals.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Of course, the World Series champions.</s>KEN RUDIN: And Eric Dodge(ph) of Middleport, New York, was the correct answer, one of them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right, and congratulations.</s>KEN RUDIN: I think.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: A year is a long time in a political campaign. Already, polls tell us the electorate is frustrated, angry with the politicians in Washington, D.C. Yesterday's results give us some indication of what we might see come November 2012. So looking ahead, what's the outlook for your candidates and your issues? Give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Joining us now is Democratic political consultant Anna Greenberg, senior vice president and principal at Greenberg, Quinlan, Rosner Research. Nice to have you back, Anna.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Republican political consultant Alex Vogel, partner at Mehlman, Vogel, Castagnetti, a political consulting firm also in Washington, D.C. And nice to have you back.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Good to be here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: They're both here in Studio 3A. And Anna, after yesterday, Democrats have to be feeling a little better.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Absolutely. I just said to Alex before this started, this is the first time in about a year-and-a-half or two years that I've actually been excited about talking on one of these kinds of - one of these events.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Yes, very good. And I think that there's a couple things to feel good about. One is I think the invigoration of labor around not just Ohio, but they were very involved in Maine and in special elections in Iowa, for example, and other places. So it wasn't just Ohio.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And in Michigan, as well. There was a recall there.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: And in Michigan, the recall there. This is - you know, the labor movement did a lot to elect Barack Obama in 2008, and they've been pretty marginalized and certainly didn't play a huge role in 2010. And I think this really injects new life into the labor movement and shows that they can play a role outside of the Democratic Party, outside of working with a Democratic president.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: The other is that I think it certainly shows that you can go too far. We saw this with Newt Gingrich in 1995. You know, once you sort of win all the marbles, it's very easy to go too far. And, you know, certainly at the state level in these different states, you've seen - you know, if you start in Wisconsin, there was a recall of two Republican senators there, even though they didn't take back the Senate.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: You're seeing a kind of - a trend around pushback against a kind of extreme, you know, anti-worker, pro-corporate agenda at the state level. I don't know if that's going to translate to the national level in the presidential race. Obama did not associate himself with these campaigns. He didn't speak out on them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nor did they associate themselves with him.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: No, no. But one would have thought, given the energy on the ground around these campaigns and the fact that the victories were so decisive, it suggests that independents broke the Democratic way, whatever the actual issue was, which has also not been true for the last two years.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: So the fact that there was such a separation between the Democratic Party and the president and what happened, which was very positive in these states, I don't know what that portends for 2012, quite honestly.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Alex Vogel, the Republicans looking at yesterday, or are they looking at a year ago?</s>ALEX VOGEL: Well, I think in terms of yesterday, the good news for Republicans is what happened in Virginia. It's currently separated by what sounds like 86 votes, but Republicans appear to have actually taken control of the State Senate. It's really a key, because if you remember back four years ago, the Democrats flipped it the other way. That was the lead-in role to President Obama flipping the entire state.</s>ALEX VOGEL: So as you look ahead now to next year, a lot of this activity - Ohio is obviously the exception. But for the most part, a lot of this stuff is happening in non-battleground states. Virginia and Ohio are real battlegrounds coming up. So for Republicans to have done that - and, frankly, the winning seat was in Fredericksburg. You're starting - Republicans have now eaten into that northern Virginia impenetrability.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Now, in the interest of full disclosure, Senator Jill Vogel was also one of the candidates yesterday. So I am following these races rather closely, but...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we congratulate her.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Thank you. But I think Virginia was significant. And, again, not to be too cynical, I happen to be one who, generally speaking, when you see extremely volatile vote turnout in intensive ballot measures, I am one who tends to say: Was it a coincidence that this was the year that it was on the ballot, or is that a trial run to roll things out for next year?</s>ALEX VOGEL: So I think, to some degree, the question to me is: Did they do it too early in Ohio? Or was this really a vehicle designed to build the labor role to try and help the president? We'll see.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We'll see. Ken?</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, I agree.</s>KEN RUDIN: And I'm thinking - I'm listening to both Anna, and, you know, was listening to all these things and what Alex just said, and we don't know. I mean, we always talk about, like, for example, 2009, and the Republicans did so great in winning the governorship of Virginia, winning the governorship of New Jersey. And that's a great meaning for the Republicans in 2010. But then when the Democrats won that historic Upstate New York seat, everybody said, well, maybe the Democrats are on a role.</s>KEN RUDIN: Ultimately, what happens in the year before a presidential race, there are so few things on the ballot, that it's hard to say that they will have a defining role, defining meaning for 2012. But again, both sides, you know, logistically and correctly, can take something from yesterday's results and go and run with it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Anna?</s>ANNA GREENBERG: I agree with that. I think you should be very careful about trying to make predictions based on what happens in an off-year. And I would note that Democrats picked up two seats in the Assembly in New Jersey. So there were opposite results in Virginia and New Jersey, you know, relative to what happened in 2009.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: But one thing, as a Democrat, that is very encouraging about it is that for a while, we've had a very significant intensity gap, whether it's interest in the election or interest in voting. Republicans have had a much more significant advantage over the Democrats.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: The fact that you see the kind of enthusiasm and turnout in these different places on somewhat disparate issues, but all very Democratic-leaning, I think is helpful in thinking about how you get people more invested in what's going to happen. I think we don't win in 2012 if Democrats are as dispirited as they have been over the last two years.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get a caller in on the conversation: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. As we look ahead to 2012, how are things for your candidate and your issue? Give us a call. And we'll begin with Eric, Eric with us from Birmingham in - Burlington, excuse me, in Iowa.</s>ERIC: Yes, sir. Thanks for taking my call. My candidate is Obama, President Obama, and the issue is health care. And I couldn't be happier the Supreme Court likely - addition to some recent decisions by very conservative judges, including Judge Sutton, out of I think the Sixth District, upholding Obamacare. Now the Supreme Court likely will not only be taking it up, but some of these Supreme Court decision-makers on the lower level have heart(ph) for several of the more conservative justices.</s>ERIC: So this is going to diffuse the issue and kind of allow Obama to cover if, in June, they decide that Obamacare's constitutional, it certainly is going to be a huge wind to the sails of President Obama. And I've got to believe that's how they're going to decide it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The Supreme Court will meet on Monday to decide whether to hear that case this term. They have to select which of the cases they would pick. And there was a decision yesterday in the D.C. District Court. And that is seen as a conservative judge writing an opinion in favor of the constitutionality of the individual mandate. But Ken?</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, I was just going to say, for all the talk about the anti-collective bargaining bill in Ohio, there was also a measure on the Ohio ballot that basically would - was a referendum on the Obama health care plan. It was a symbolic vote. It doesn't have any real effect. But voters, by an overwhelming margin, removed the mandate from health care. So you can make the case that Obama's plan suffered a tremendous defeat yesterday in Ohio.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Alex?</s>ANNA GREENBERG: But the independent mandate's always been an unpopular part of the plan, if you poll it separately. So it doesn't surprise me at all. I don't know that it's an indicator of something bigger.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Yeah. I mean, the interesting things is, look, I have no doubt that the White House would certainly like to have the health care bill writ large upheld when it gets to the Supreme Court. But I'm not sure it's something they want to be messaging off of in the election year. When you've seen it actually broken out in its component pieces, the mandate's usually the one that winds up being asked about. And as you saw in Ohio, every county in Ohio, actually, went against the mandate.</s>ALEX VOGEL: So if we are in a messaging battle about health care next year, I'm not sure that's where the White House wants to be.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And thus far, I think every Republican presidential candidate has been running against the federal courts as being activist, anyway. If the Supreme Court upholds the president's health care law, I don't think that's going to change the dialogue.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Yes. That is the one thing that all the candidates agree on in the Republican primary right now.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Anna?</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Well, I wanted to mention - because the caller was from Iowa - that there was a special in Iowa, which actually was effectively about control of the Senate, which is actually effectively about gay marriage, because the only way to overturn same-sex marriage in Iowa is to have two consecutive legislative sessions that pass a constitutional amendment.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: So it was actually a very - you know, it's one state Senate race in the state, but it's a very big deal. I would also note that it is a battleground state, and there were also good results in Michigan, which is a battleground state. So I wouldn't say that none of these, you know, elections outside of Ohio don't have implications for 2012.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ralph in Tempe, Arizona, emailed with clarification, this about the recall election there of the state senator who was the sponsor of the anti-immigration bill. Mr. Pearce, he wrote, lost in an election of the entire electorate of his Mesa, Arizona, legislative district, including Dems and independents. Thus, he could be back next year by defeating Mr. Lewis in the Republican preliminary race, the primary. He may also replace the aging Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. So, nobody writing a political obituary for Russell Pearce, at least not yet.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But that does bring us around - there is going to be somebody nominated by the Republican Party to run against Barack Obama. And at this point, it seems like you look at eight nominees, eight candidates, and the support for all them seems to be soft.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Yeah. I mean, you've seen - for a long time, you've had this Romney and the not-Romney dynamic, and Romney has now had to endure a series of folks coming up, breaking through his numbers, and then whatever the reason, scandal or otherwise, imploding.</s>ALEX VOGEL: What's fascinating to me is as Cain improved and passed Romney, when Cain, when this current scandal broke and Cain's numbers started to fall, absolutely none of those voters went to Romney. So the reality is I think Romney is in relatively good shape.</s>ALEX VOGEL: The issue he's got is it's 70-something days until Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina are done, and he has to find some way - I mean, it's fine for him and smart, frankly, for him to stay quiet while this Cain stuff shakes out. At some point, he's going to need to connect with these folks. Otherwise, he will wind up with this very soft mushy base, which is not a good place to be.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Former Utah Governor Jon Huntsman has a new ad out targeting Mitt Romney who, as you suggest, has been relatively MIA.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: NORAH O'DONNELL: ...with Governor Huntsman.</s>MITT ROMNEY: I just don't take questions unless we're doing a press avail.</s>MITT ROMNEY: O'DONNELL: But you're running for president.</s>MITT ROMNEY: What I don't want to do is just stand on a sidewalk answering questions. I'm not speaking about the particular ballot issues.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, well, where's Mitt? But, Anna, this is usually, if you're in that position, a pretty good strategy.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: For Romney?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Romney should make no mistakes. He will not go down because he won't answer questions. There are plenty of people who refuse to debate in other kinds of races. It never seems to hurt them. It is absolutely smart for him to lay low, raise money, deal with his organization on the ground, win a couple of those early, you know, primaries and then be the inevitable candidate because it's hard to imagine Cain lasting much longer.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ken?</s>KEN RUDIN: And I was - I just came back from a visit to Iowa Public Radio, and, boy, are my arms tired.</s>KEN RUDIN: But it's interesting if you look at The Des Moines Register poll from last weekend, the leaders are Romney and Cain. And who are the two candidates who have not shown up in Iowa? Romney and Cain. So for all the talk about retail politics and how these guys have to connect with individual voters, Romney, you know, where's Mitt? But he's not been in Iowa, and yet, he's still up there. You know, his numbers haven't improved, but nobody is passing him.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And are we getting to the point, Alex Vogel, where if you're not Mitt Romney and you're not Herman Cain, it's time to throw the Hail Mary?</s>ALEX VOGEL: Yeah. I think it's very hard for any of these folks to break through at this point. I mean, I - someone pointed out to me that Newt is now back in third. I don't think that's a real third. I think you have Romney and someone else. And the someone else has been this amorphous, well, we'd really like to have someone else, but when you actually get down to defining that person, no one has been able to sustain that. And given Cain's trajectory and - look, I mean, if you're having press conferences and the word lie detector is coming up and you're running for president, there's no good scenario, unless you're talking about how you invented the lie detector.</s>KEN RUDIN: Alex, Mitt Romney keeps talking about Rick Perry, so it makes me think that he still thinks Rick Perry has a comeback possibility.</s>ALEX VOGEL: I mean, the reality is Perry's got organization, not as large as Romney's, but he has some. He's governor of a huge state with a big political operation, and he's going to have a lot of money. So if he lays low, the reality is they could slug it out for the last 60 days here.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: And Perry's vulnerabilities has been about sort of not seeming prepared, not seeming coherent. They haven't and, you know, some potential issues around immigration with the base, but generally, certainly it's not a scandal, and generally, there aren't – it's nothing he can't fix.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking politics as we do every Wednesday with political junkie Ken Rudin. With us this week: Anna Greenberg, senior vice president and principal at Greenberg, Quinlan, Rosner; and also Alex Vogel, partner at Mehlman, Vogel, Castagnetti, a political consulting firm here in Washington, D.C. I'm saying Castagnetti better and better every week. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. And, Alex, you mentioned the electoral map. Reminder, the presidential election is not one big national election. It is 51 separate elections.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, Anna Greenberg, as a lot of people look at the states that Barack Obama carried three years ago, they're saying yes, Virginia is going to be a problem for him. Yes, Ohio, Iowa, North Carolina. It's beginning to look more and more difficult for the president.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Yes. There's no question that this re-elect looks difficult. It would be bizarre if it wasn't. If you look at the unemployment rate and a variety of other indicators, like the right track, wrong track numbers. But I tend to look - to start from the 2004 map where Kerry only needed to win, say, Ohio or Florida or New Mexico in order to have won that election. I actually think Obama starts out better positioned because I think he wins, you know, New Mexico pretty easily. So I think there's not a terrible electoral-vote scenario for Obama even if he loses Ohio, even if he loses Virginia, even if he loses Florida.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Alex Vogel?</s>ALEX VOGEL: Yeah. I actually look at things differently which is rather than look at...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'm shocked.</s>ALEX VOGEL: ...the somewhat anomalous map that the president won with last time, with Virginia...</s>KEN RUDIN: (Unintelligible).</s>ALEX VOGEL: ...that was not your normal map for a Democrat to win.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Exactly.</s>ALEX VOGEL: If you go back to your normal map, if you look at states that voted for Democrats in '04 and '08, and you say OK, those are pretty solid blue states. He starts with 246 electoral votes out of 270 needed to win. If he wins those states plus Florida, he's re-elected. So if you look at it that way, you can say, well, it's actually not that big a hurdle, he'll be visiting the Sunshine State a lot.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And maybe Mario - Marco Rubio's prospects for the vice presidential nomination just improved. But Florida, it's going to be the key in the Republican primary, and, as Alex just suggested, it could be a desperately important key in the presidential election.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Florida will be very, very important. It's sort of unfortunate, given our history there. But Rick Scott is a very unpopular governor, and there have been some early elections in Florida, some municipal elections that suggest some pushback and reaction to Rick Scott as governor. So I have a feeling that the work of this governor has made that state look a little better for Obama than it might have been otherwise.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get Mary on the line. Mary is calling us from Leavenworth, Kansas.</s>MARY: Yes. And I think it's going to be Mitt Romney running for the Republican side, and I believe in my heart that he will be the next president. He has learnt being governor that what it is to run a state. Obama has never run a state. The only thing he's ever run was a community center.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, he's run the United States for the last three years.</s>MARY: He has run - I'll put it this way. He has ruined the United States in the last three years. That's how I look at it. Look how many people who are suffering because of his mistakes.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Mary, thanks very...</s>MARY: If they can't see it then there's something wrong with the American people.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, Mary, thanks very much for the call. And, Alex Vogel, there are some who say that Mitt Romney, should he be the nominee, will not get the excitement of the Tea Party. However, Mary's point, I think, is well taken. The Tea Party and a lot of people who might vote Republican are going to be excited to vote against Barack Obama.</s>ALEX VOGEL: That's true. I mean, look, there's a long-running debate over whether or not, you actually can win an election because you don't want the other person or whether you're in love with your person. And I have always been one who argues you actually have to love your guy. If you go back to '96, Republicans really didn't like Bill Clinton. We liked Bob Dole. We respected Bob Dole, very few people loved Bob Dole. We couldn't do it. You flip it to George W. Bush. Democrats hated him with a similar white-hot intensity.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Most Democrats I know liked John Kerry. They respected John Kerry. They didn't love John Kerry. Is hating the other guy enough to win an election? Now, you have to say if you just look at the economic data, it's tough to be an incumbent right now, and the president's got some real challenge. He's going to have to win people over on.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And will the unions love Barack Obama, and will the environmentalists love Barack Obama? They have to wait for the XL pipeline decision to see how that symbolic decision may go. More with Anna Greenberg and Alex Vogel, political junkie Ken Rudin returns as well. It's a super-sized edition of The Political Junkie. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Right now, we're talking with political junkie Ken Rudin, a year from Election Day 2012. What's the outlook for the candidates and the issues where you live? Who has the momentum? Our guests are Anna Greenberg, Democratic political consultant and senior vice president and principal at Greenberg, Quinlan, Rosner Research, and Alex Vogel, Republican political consultant and partner at Mehlman, Vogel and Castagnetti. And we talked about the presidential race, but there is also the issue of control of the United States Senate, currently in the hands of Democrats but not by much. And given the numbers, Anna Greenberg, a lot of people say there's no way Democrats can hold on to the U.S. Senate.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: I wouldn't say there's no way, but it's definitely challenging. A number of the retirements on the Democratic side have been in red states, and it's pretty clear that there's no way that Democrats can hold those seats. So I wouldn't say that it's an absolute certainty Republicans are going to take it over, but it's certainly challenging. I think a lot of it also depends on what happens with the presidential race. There's a bunch of states where, you know, if Obama, you know, is doing well and energizing the base, we can win, you know, places like Montana, for example, you know, by a hair breadth and keep those seats. If he's not doing well, it will be much harder for some of those closer races for Democrats to keep those seats.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: One race a lot of Democrats are excited about is in Massachusetts. If that race does not turn blue, I don't think there's any way the Democrats can hold on.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Massachusetts will be a good sort of canary in the coalmine. You know, Scott Brown is still pretty popular, but his support is a mile wide and inch deep. And if you do any kind of research on him, which I have done...</s>ANNA GREENBERG: ...for some of my clients, and you can see that he's got a lot of vulnerabilities. And Elizabeth Warren has a lot of strengths. So I actually think it's going to be a great race. It was one where I think a lot of Democrats where pretty dispirited by the field of people who were planning on running against Brown and now much more excited about it. And she's - part of what makes her strong is she is going to have no problem raising money, which is he's got, you know, 10 million in the bank.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Alex Vogel, Republicans seem pretty confident about the Senate.</s>ALEX VOGEL: So there are nine tossup races based on the numbers today, two on the R side, which are the Massachusetts race and the Nevada race, seven on the D side. If we split the nine tossups, which is not likely to happen, you've got a 51-49 Republican Senate. And we're feeling cautiously optimistic about our chances. Someone mentioned Montana. Look, there's two states in the 2008 presidential campaign Barack Obama didn't visit - Alaska and Montana. So if you're Mr. Tester and Barack Obama is on the ballot, that's a challenging election for you. There's no way around it.</s>ALEX VOGEL: But, again, it's not some special sauce we've discovered. It's - they have 23 seats to defend. We have 10. And of those 10, only two were actually in blue or marginal states. So it's the luck of the draw, but I'll take that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. And the House of Representatives long, of course, famously to Republican control last time. But, Anna Greenberg, Democrats think they do have a shot at winning there.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: I think Democrats do have a shot. There are a few things working in their favor. One, there are a bunch of seats that Obama - a bunch of districts that Obama won that now have Republicans in them, so there's a lot of purple seats in states like Pennsylvania, a lot of those are in states where these Republican governors are increasingly unpopular. The second piece is that redistricting actually ends up in certain states favoring Democrats more than we would thought.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: I certainly think Texas is going to be a place where Democrats actually net seats; potentially, Arizona, although that's now very much up in the air. But certainly, the map that the independent commission had drawn had three competitive Democratic seats in addition to the two seats that were solid Democratic seats. So, you know, if you look at sort of both where Obama won and you look at redistricting, there really - now, it's going to be close if it actually happens. Twenty-five seats is a big lift, but it certainly not outside of the realm of possibility.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: The one other thing I would add is that Boehner and the Republicans in Congress have a terrible image, and they are - and it plummeted, and they are - it's very hard to see sort of what they run on around their sort of leadership in the House. They are very unpopular. They are less popular than the Democrats in Congress.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yes, Barack Obama's numbers are not great. The Republicans' numbers in the House are even worse, Alex Vogel.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Right. Congress's numbers are brutal. Look, Anna mentioned the 25-seat margin that Republicans currently enjoy in the House. In an average year, all congressional elections, the average swing in the House is 23 seats. Average presidential year, it's 16. Average presidential year with redistricting, it's closer to 14. So Democrats are going to need to substantially over-perform the norm here in order to pick it up.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Now, look, there are a lot of folks who are sitting in blue districts who just got elected, who are freshmen. This will be the time to get them. I know there's 14 who are freshmen and are sitting in an overwhelmingly blue districts. That's where Pelosi and her friends are going to go. I think they'll pick a few of them off, but to get to 25 is pretty hard.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Ken?</s>KEN RUDIN: I agree with both. I mean, I think the Republicans do have a good shot at winning the Senate. It seems like Scott Brown is the only vulnerable incumbent on the Republican side, maybe Dick Lugar. But again, I think the Republicans keep Indiana. And I kind of think they win in Nevada as well. I think there have been some stories about Shelley Berkley, the Democrat - likely Democratic candidate, some things about conflict of interest with her husband. So I think, you know, the Republicans are in good shape in there.</s>KEN RUDIN: On the House side, you know, it's early. We still don't know who's running. We're still waiting for candidates. We're still waiting for lines to be drawn. But I still think the Republicans hold on to the House.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get Chad on the line. Chad is calling from Kalamazoo.</s>CHAD: Yes. There really is a Kalamazoo.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There is.</s>CHAD: Well, good afternoon. I am a Republican, historically, and my question is, I don't hate Obama. But I also...</s>KEN RUDIN: Then you're not a real Republican.</s>KEN RUDIN: Go on.</s>CHAD: Well, you and my father would probably get along very well then. But I neither hate Obama, nor am I overly enamored by any of the Republican candidates. And it goes to the point you made earlier of, you know, it takes more than just hating the incumbent to elect someone. And so my question is, what if I were to consider a third party candidate, whether it's a Green Party of libertarian or anyone in between, but someone who's running on a core set of beliefs, would I be wasting my vote? Or would a surge in a third party candidate actually begin a change of opening up a platform?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ken, this is something we hear every four years.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, we do, and we always talk about, you know, the 97,000 people who voted for Ralph Nader in Florida in 2000. And Ralph Nader totally, in the United States, I think got 1.5 percent of the vote, but with George W. Bush winning the state by 434 votes, obviously, I was thinking maybe a majority of the 97,000 may have got to Al Gore and sell those votes to make a difference.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Interesting our caller is named Chad.</s>CHAD: Yeah, exactly.</s>KEN RUDIN: But also - and...</s>CHAD: That was a rough period to live through.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I bet.</s>KEN RUDIN: And talking about what Alex talked before, what if Mitt Romney is not sufficiently conservative by right-wing groups? And what if the conservatives put up a third party candidate, which is very, very possible?</s>ALEX VOGEL: And we all saw what happened with Ross Perot, right? And so the short answer is, we have seen those movements. Ross Perot, obviously, had money to back up his movement.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Getting late, though. It's getting late.</s>KEN RUDIN: Getting late.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Well - but the research that we have done suggests that the electorate is ripe for a third party candidate, not to win, but to get, you know, a substantial chunk of the vote. You have a very similar kind of angry, white blue collar sector of the electorate that is mad at Democrats who run government, spending the economy, but is also mad at Republicans around kind of corporate special interests and serving the interests of the wealthy. And that is the group that voted for Ross Perot. It is getting - I guess, it's a little, but not really. It's a year. We don't have a Republican candidate yet. I don't really - you know.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're going to give – Laura(ph) in Charlotte, North Carolina, the last word. Stop, she writes. Please stop. I'm begging you, stop. This autopsy of yesterday's elections for a prophetic sight of the elections of 2012 is one of the reasons nothing is getting done in the country. The important time is now. There will be no movement in our government until elected officials stop looking over their shoulders to the next election. Furthermore, trying to discern a prediction of the future from a few percentages of the people who bothered to get out to vote is a bigger folly than predicting the daily fluctuations in the stock market.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Hey, I thought, we all said we couldn't predict what was going to happen based on the results yesterday.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Anna Greenberg, thank you very much for putting up with us.</s>ANNA GREENBERG: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, of course, Alex Vogel, we appreciate your time as well.</s>ALEX VOGEL: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: When we come back in just a minute, we're going to be talking the politics of personhood.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we're joined now by Julie Rovner, NPR health policy correspondent, who has been following the debate in Mississippi over whether life begins at the moment of fertilization. That proposed constitutional amendment went down to defeat yesterday. Supporters promised to continue their efforts in other states. And Julie is with us here in Studio 3A. Nice to have you back.</s>JULIE ROVNER: Nice to be here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this amendment is back. It was previously offered a couple of times in the state of Colorado, where it also lost. It was thought to be a live issue in Mississippi. The polling indicated it was a toss-up.</s>JULIE ROVNER: That's right. Well, originally, it looked like it was going to pass easily, of course, Mississippi being a much more conservative, much more anti-abortion state than Colorado. So it was thought to be absolutely a slam dunk. Then the most recent polling, as you point out, was much tighter. And indeed, it went down by a much larger margin than anyone thought. I looked just before I came in - with 1,806 of 1876 precincts reporting, so about 90 percent. The margin is 58 percent no to 42 percent yes. So a pretty good thumping there.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And both gubernatorial candidates supported the amendment. What happened?</s>JULIE ROVNER: Well, I think it's sort of a combination of things. You know, as you pointed out, this went down 2-1 twice in the state of Colorado. So it's a pretty far-reaching amendment. It would declare, as you said, a human being to be a person with full legal right at the moment of fertilization. That would mean that, you know, basically, an embryo in a test tube would have full right of a person. It would cause, as people pointed out, all manner of unintended consequences. It would not only end abortions - and that's, of course, its intended effect is as a mechanism to overturn Roe v. Wade at the Supreme Court. But it also might have the unintended effect of compromising in vitro fertilization and probably wouldn't end it as some people said. But if you wanted to implant multiple embryos, you would have problems with the leftovers.</s>JULIE ROVNER: It would outlaw certain forms of contraception that might have the impact of blocking the implantation of a fertilized egg into a woman's uterus. Because there would be - because it would stop all forms of abortion, there would be no exceptions for rape or incest, or a woman who, perhaps, developed cancer during her pregnancy. And as all these things came out, as they did in Colorado, as they came out in Mississippi, there were a lot of people who, as they - as Haley Barbour, the outgoing governor said, even though I am pro-life, I have some problems with some of the possible ramifications of this.</s>JULIE ROVNER: And, of course, the people who are for this personhood amendment said, well, there are lies, you know, that it wouldn't necessarily do this. But because it was an amendment to the Constitution, it was only a couple of sentences. It was unknown exactly what the ramifications of this would be. There were people saying, you know, calling into call-in shows, will I have to buy two tickets to go to the movies if I was pregnant? Would I be able to, you know, will this affect congressional redistricting? You know, all kinds of things that nobody really knows. So it's - it goes a really further than I think the people of Mississippi were prepared to go.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: NPR health policy correspondent, Julie Rovner. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this amendment, as we mentioned, it's come up before. Supporters say, it'll come up again. It has divided those who oppose abortion rights.</s>JULIE ROVNER: Indeed it has. There are other members of the anti-abortion committee who support the concept of declaring personhood for the unborn, as they say, for - even fertilized eggs, as this would do. But they are worried that if this were to get to the Supreme Court in its current form, with the current Supreme Court, the Supreme Court might have to, not only strike it down, but would end up then reaffirming Roe v. Wade, the current Supreme Court holding that legalizes abortion, and that would be a setback for the anti-abortion movement.</s>JULIE ROVNER: So they - I spoke to one prominent anti-abortion lawyer who said, no, you have to overturn Roe v. Wade first and then establish personhood. You can't use this personhood as a mechanism to overturn Roe v. Wade. Then there are others, among them Phyllis Schlafly, the head of the Eagle Forum, very prominent anti-abortion group, who worries that what these types of campaigns do is they rile up the anti - excuse me - the pro-abortion rights groups, bring them out to the polls. And in the process, they vote for other candidates and then get - have the anti-abortion candidates lose, which she says is what happened in Colorado. So there are people who don't like it for strategy purposes, not necessarily because they disagree with the ends.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And there's also those who might say, if this can't pass in Mississippi, where can it pass?</s>JULIE ROVNER: That is indeed a question. Now, I spoke to the people who are pushing this personhood movement. They say they're still at the beginning of this, that they'll come back and they will try it again in Mississippi. They'll do a better job of education, a better job with their campaign. They want to try it again in other states, and perhaps some swing states, some major swing states in next year's presidential campaign, states like Florida, states like Ohio. And that may give some heartburn to some people who are worried that, again, it could mobilize people on the other side and get them out to vote.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The other side, were they mobilized in Mississippi? Were there a lot of ads against this amendment?</s>JULIE ROVNER: There were a lot of ads on both sides. So it's hard to tell whether, you know, whether it brought out, indeed, you know, as you mentioned, both candidates for governor endorsed it. So it didn't really have any impact on that. The Republican did win. The Republican was expected to win. So it was hard to tell in that sense, but - and Mississippi is such an anti-abortion state. But you could see that, you know, in a very tight race, if you're going to mobilize the pro-abortion rights forces, that might be not what you want to do if you're an anti-abortion.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Julie Rovner, thanks very much.</s>JULIE ROVNER: You're welcome.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: NPR health policy correspondent, Julie Rovner. Ken Rudin still with us. And, Ken, we wanted to not leave this week without remembering somebody who was important in, well, not just the coverage of politics as we do it today, but in your career as well.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, that's Hal Bruno. He was ABC News' long-time political director. I guess, he was director for 18 years before that. He was political editor at Newsweek magazine. On election night in 1984, I was a researcher for ABC News, and he says, Ken, I want you as my deputy to come to Washington. So Hal Bruno was responsible, and you can all blame Hal Bruno.</s>KEN RUDIN: But, you know, he was the kind of news guy and a political guy that really cared about people, cared about the issues, cared about - he didn't care about rumor. And he wasn't snarky. He was an old-fashioned, you know, letter on the - boots on the ground, campaign guy, always on the phone, always talking to sources, not the kind of guy who would just, you know, deal in innuendo and rumor and the way we cover politics today. He's a, you know, it's a terrible loss. You know, everybody thinks of Admiral Stockdale, when he says? Who am I? Remember the famous question?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Sure.</s>KEN RUDIN: He asked, who am I? What am I doing here? It was Hal Bruno who said, Admiral Stockdale, your opening statement. So we could blame Hal Bruno for that. But, I mean, he was, you know, he was a journalist's journalist and that kind of who is not going to be seen again.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Hal Bruno was, as you say, he worked at a couple of important organizations and really changed the national scope of the way we cover politics.</s>KEN RUDIN: Absolutely. I mean, basically, the whole thing was not, you know, I mean, back in the old days, we didn't know until, you know, hours later, days later in many cases, who won the election. But he just knew the key sources. He knew every county chairman, the precinct chairs in all the states. He knew who talk to and what was happening. He knew, sometimes, things that would happen before they happened. And, you know, again, as I say, I don't know anybody who fills that role today.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Political Junkie Ken Rudin with us here in Studio 3A. You can read his blog and find his ScuttleButton puzzle at npr.org/junkie. And, Ken, of course, we'll see you next week.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow, after the latest nuclear watchdog report on Iran, what now? We end with the music that we use every week for the Political Junkie. It's maybe not appropriate, you would think, after we just mentioned the death of somebody like Hal Bruno. Hal Bruno would like this music. Let's bring it up. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. |
United States vs. Jones raises questions about the limits of police searches, personal privacy and the use of new technology in law enforcement. At issue is whether police need warrants to attach GPS tracking devices to a cars to monitor suspects' movements for indefinite periods of time. David Savage, Supreme Court reporter, Los Angeles Times and Chicago Tribune | NEAL CONAN, host: In 2005, FBI agents in Washington, D.C., put a tracking device on a car registered to Antoine Jones and followed his movements with GPS. They suspected Jones of distributing narcotics, and the tracking device eventually led them to his stash. Afterwards, a federal appeals court threw out Jones' conviction because the FBI's use of the tracker, it said, violated his Fourth Amendment rights. Today, the Supreme Court heard arguments in that case.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We'd like to hear from you. How does new technology change the debate over privacy and security? Give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: David Savage covers the Supreme Court for the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune, and he joins us from his office here in Washington. David, always nice to have you on the program.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Hi, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this case, the Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable search and seizure. The government argued it did not need a warrant to put a tracking device on this man's car.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Yes, that's right, sort of citing the sort of long established law that the Fourth Amendment protects privacy, where you have a reason to be private. That is, I can't come into your house. And if you're talking on the phone, although not a phone call like this, but if you're talking on a normal phone call, your assumption is that no one is listening.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: But when you walk down the street or you get in your car and drive around town, you're not - you're in public and government could put an agent behind you and then follow you. And so the argument in this case is they said, what's the big deal? Where - you have no right to privacy when your car moves on the highway. Therefore, there's no Fourth Amendment concern about tracking a car for a month with a GPS device.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And the other side argues that you're getting a whole different quality and quantity of information from a GPS that you would never get from an agent.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Yes. And it wasn't just the other side, Neal. It was John Roberts making that argument and Sam Alito. The interesting thing about this argument was how much Roberts and Alito and Stephen Breyer and Ruth Ginsberg, both liberal and conservative justices, said, wait a minute. You know, if we go along with that argument, the government can use a monitoring device to monitor everyone going everywhere. And with computers, you could keep databases on huge numbers of persons. You couldn't literally track - you know, FBI wouldn't have thousands of people being tracked every day or hundreds of thousands of people. But that's the new world. Maybe that's how the technology could be used.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: John Roberts, very early in the argument, said, well, what if you wanted to put a GPS monitor on our cars and monitor us for a month? Is that OK? And Michael Dreeben, the attorney for the government, said, you mean the justices of this court? And he said, yes, that's who I mean. And Dreeben said, well, under your cases, that would be permissible. And so the whole tenor of the argument was that the justices do not like the idea of a totally open-ended power to monitor and track people.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, of course, you're saying they could put devices and track us all. Most of us carry devices in our pockets that can be used to track us.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Yes, that's right. One of the sub issues in this case was that they attached this little GPS to the fellow's jeep. And it's possible they may end up with a narrow ruling that says the government went too far when they attached the GPS. But we're not going to decide the bigger question of, as you said, well, what if they use your own cell phone technology to track you? I think a number of them want to reach that question. I will say, by the end of the hour, it was unclear what type of limiting principle they're going to adopt.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: So, on the other hand, they don't want to say if the government has some reason to think that a few people are involved in wanting to, let's say, bomb the Metro or bomb the Washington Monument - and we don't know for sure, but we're suspicious, and we want to track some of these people - the Supreme Court doesn't want to say you can't track somebody until you have proof they're involved in a crime. So I know they don't want to go down that road too far the other way.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This has been described as maybe the most important Fourth Amendment case in, well, many, many years.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Yes. And, of course, like a lot of this, it sort of depends on - we will know when it's over with of what they decide. I think the - I will say, one possibility that came up in the middle of the argument that was not picked up on is some sort of reasonable suspicion standard. Elena Kagan said, well, you know, if you go to London, there are all these cameras that would track you everywhere you are in the public, and that does - that seems to be standard. Somebody else said, but the GPS is different because you're picking out an individual and tracking him.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: And one possible standard, we'll just say, the government can do that only if they have some reason to believe that - supposed it's you or me, supposed it's Neal Conan, we have some reason to believe that Neal's involved in some way, and we don't know for sure, and so let's monitor. So that standard would say, you can't do it for everybody. You can't do it routinely. You can only do it when they have some real reason to believe this person is involved in whatever it is, a drug conspiracy or a terrorism plot.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, if they have reason to believe, can't they go to a judge and get a warrant?</s>DAVID SAVAGE: That's a good question, Neal. But usually, the answer would be no. If you have probable cause, if you have reason to know that - somebody says, I can testify this guy has been involved in selling drugs or whatever, then you've got probable cause. But what if you just heard a tip that five or 10 people who have come to Washington and we think they might be up to something suspicious, we just don't know what it is, you wouldn't have probable cause to believe they're committing a crime. You just have a suspicion.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We want to hear from callers too. How does new technology change the debate on privacy and security? 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. Let's start with - this is Paul. Paul, with us from Panama City.</s>PAUL: Hi, Mr. Conan. It's good to speak to you again.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK. Good to have you back. Go ahead.</s>PAUL: The technology changing the debate is - it won't do so quite so much if we remember what the Fourth Amendment is about. See, the current government - the government's current case is a bit of political sophistry based on the beliefs that the Fourth Amendment is about privacy. It's not about privacy. If you look at original intent, you see that the Fourth Amendment, the First, the Second, the Fifth, almost all of them, were built into the Constitution to prevent government intimidation of citizens.</s>PAUL: When you look at this case, from that viewpoint, government intimidation versus no government intimidation, it's very clear what the Founding Fathers would have said about this case and allowing ourselves to get down the road of privacy versus non-privacy, clouds the issue.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: David Savage, does that come up in today's argument?</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Well, yes. Justice Scalia made a version of that argument. He said he didn't like this sort of reasonable expectation of privacy doctrine that came in the late '60s. Let me say that the original view, the one the Scalia was endorsing, was that the Fourth Amendment was about things like protecting your home, your papers, something like that. In other words, protecting a place. The police couldn't go into your house.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: In this famous case in the late '60s where a bookie is on a street in Los Angeles making phone calls, and the court overturned its decisions and said, that kind of wiretapping is unconstitutional, is a Fourth Amendment violation, because the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places. And when you're talking on a phone in a phone booth, you expect it's private. So ever since then, they've had this privacy view. To go back the other way would be to say the Fourth Amendment protects you against the government coming in your house, maybe rifling it around the inside of your car...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, wasn't there a case a few years ago, where they were using thermo imaging to look inside people's houses? And the Supreme Court said, no, you can't do that. That's Fourth Amendment violation.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Yes. That was a Scalia opinion. And that case, Neal, it's sort of dependent on what you thought was - this was a situation where they had a thermal imager in the house growing marijuana. It was putting out steam. Justice Scalia said, that's really looking inside of somebody's house and, therefore, it violates the Fourth Amendment. Justice Stevens, who's one of the more liberal, says, no, it isn't. It's just recording the heat waves that come out of your house.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: It's like smells wafting out of the kitchen. And he said it wasn't a Fourth Amendment violation. But yes, you're right. The question was if it goes into the house and sort of spies on you into the house, then they said you need a search warrant.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Paul, thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it. Let's see if we could go next to - this is Lisa. Lisa, with us from Pensacola.</s>LISA: Hi. I was just listening to your caller right before I came on. He had a very good point, but it also raises a question. If - I guess if you're doing something wrong in the privacy of your own home, it's not really technically wrong until you get caught. Is that really what we're looking at? Is that the issue we're looking at?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, it's still wrong, but they can't prosecute you because they will have no evidence.</s>LISA: Well, I mean that - they do have evidence. I mean, he's growing marijuana in his house. So, I mean, how much more do you need?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, it was just that particular method of discovering that fact was unconstitutional. His rights were violated.</s>LISA: That's right. That absolutely should be changed. I have no qualms with someone - honestly, I really - I have nothing to hide. My life is an open book. I don't understand people who live - I understand people's personalities are very private. There's some things, of course, that I would like to keep to myself. But if - look, if it helps a case, a criminal case, a situation involving my family, a social situation that needs to be solved, all of that information should be opened up to whoever, you know, whatever authorities need to know it.</s>LISA: I really don't believe in hiding things. I'm a health care professional. I even have problems with HIPAA. I have a few - a real few problems with HIPAA simply because I believe it would put ourselves in a situation where we'd become so private. That in the event that something were to happen to me - let's say, my husband is not a health care professional but I am - no one would have access to my medical record except for him if something's not spelled out, you know, clearly on all of my medical records. I have get - written in very large letters. No restrictions on who has access on my medical records. I have nothing to hide.</s>LISA: Now, my friends, my family, my co-workers who are physicians, other physical therapist and other health care professionals can't come in and help make a decision for me if I were in a life or death situation vs. leaving it up to my husband and my doctor. Do you understand where I'm going with this?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I do, Lisa. Thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it.</s>LISA: Mm-hmm.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Thanks. Here's an email that we have from Carrie(ph) in New York. Let's also consider how this can protect us. I think what if I was kidnapped and went missing? So there is a view on that side.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this is from Hank in Fernandina Beach in Florida. If you think why is it that the Constitution would have agreed it was OK for the government to attach a device to your horse to let the government know where you were at all times, then you have no concept of their ideas on government intrusion.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'm not sure how that computes, you know. What was the intent of the 4th Amendment at issue today in the oral argument?</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Well, there was - your previous caller was talking about her view of privacy being well different from other people's views. Sam Alito brought up a really interesting point about is that, you know, that views on privacy are so much influx that he said, I don't know what it's going to be like 20 years from now. You know, it seems to be case with Facebook or whatever. It may - he said that it'll maybe the case that most people have, you know, 500 friends on Facebook. And at the Facebook, they track each other every moment of the day, and they know everything about their conversations that privacy - the whole notion of privacy is constantly changing.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: And I suppose that sort of argues for - to some degree, Scalia like view is that the 4th Amendment can protect certain private places or private situations, you know. And the classic is we don't want government agents to come into your house, an apartment or whatever, unless they have real reason, a search warrant, a real reason to believe something - there's some crime going on. But on a public street or in a public space, maybe there's no such privacy concern at all.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And the person may, in fact, be tweeting it or broadcasting it on Foursquare...</s>DAVID SAVAGE: That's right.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So you never know. David Savage, thanks very much.</s>DAVID SAVAGE: Thank you, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: David Savage, the Supreme Court reporter for the Los Angeles Time and the Chicago Tribune. He joined us today from his office here in Washington. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. |
Allegations of sexual abuse have shaken institutions from the Catholic Church to public schools to Penn State's football program. In many cases, victims and their families say they reported the abuse to the people in charge, and for any number of reasons, those people didn't do enough to stop it. Mindy Mitnick, psychologist Amy Russell, deputy director, National Child Protection Training Center Rocco Palmo, founder, Whispers in the Loggia | NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Few things can shake an organization like allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct. Penn State's famed football program is the latest in the headlines but too many other institutions have faced similar charges. Details are always different, of course, but one question remains constant: Why didn't those who witnessed or heard about the abuse act to stop it?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Today in a statement announcing plans to retire at the end of this season, Penn State coach Joe Paterno wrote: With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more. Earlier in the week, John Salveson, the former head of the Pennsylvania chapter of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, told the Associated Press: Here we go again. When an institution discovers the abuse of a kid, their first reaction is to protect the reputation of the institution and the perpetrator.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If you knew about abuse in your office, in your church, in your school, did you tell? 800-989-8255. Email us talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on "Talk of the Nation." Later in the program, the next billion dollar video game, but first, Mindy Mitnick joins us. She's a licensed psychologist with decades of experience working with witnesses and victims of abuse.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: She joins us from her office in Minneapolis, and Mindy Mitnick, nice to have you on the program today.</s>MINDY MITNICK: Thanks for having me.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And I wonder, Coach Paterno's words, in hindsight, I wish I had done more, I suspect you have heard those before.</s>MINDY MITNICK: I have. And so have victims who wish that somebody had come to their assistance when they knew about what was happening to them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And as you look at the details of this case, where various people are informed and somehow it's all shuffled off and no investigation happens and no one is punished - these are allegations going back as far as 1998 - again, does this look familiar?</s>MINDY MITNICK: It does look familiar and of course we've known about this for decades in other institutions, whether they are schools or churches. Boy Scouts had problems going back for decades. And so it always sounds familiar and yet it continues to happen.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Why is it that people don't do anything or don't do enough?</s>MINDY MITNICK: Well, I think sometimes people don't do anything because they're quite afraid of the consequences of doing something. There's always that worry that they won't be believed if they report it, especially if the person that they've witnessed doing something to a child is somebody in a position of power. So they're afraid that they won't be believed.</s>MINDY MITNICK: I think people are very afraid of being involved in the system, being involved with police, having their names released to the media so that their privacy isn't kept and themselves being under attack. And I think sometimes people are in such shock that they literally don't know whether or how to do something.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: That interesting quote from the former head of the SNAP chapter in Pennsylvania, protect the institution, is that, do you think, from your experience, something that people consciously do?</s>MINDY MITNICK: I think sometimes people do consciously protect the institution. I think that denial about the reality, the seriousness, the extent and the devastation of child abuse are very powerful forces to keep the allegations sort of moving along through the system, saying, well, I've done what I needed to because I told this person and then never any follow-through to see what happened to protect the child.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In the Penn State case, the allegations are against a person who is a revered figure there, an assistant coach. Not just an assistant coach, really the assistant coach who helped Joe Paterno develop the nickname of Penn State football as Linebacker U. And the allegations against somebody like that, again, going back to that SNAP quote, protect the perpetrator, this is a revered figure.</s>MINDY MITNICK: It is a revered figured and I think yet that somebody did tell and it doesn't appear, at least with the information we have so far, that anything further happened when that person was brave enough to tell.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Is it different for people of different ages and in different contexts? I suspect it is.</s>MINDY MITNICK: In terms of the witnessing?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah.</s>MINDY MITNICK: Yeah. I think that children, for instance, who witness something perpetrated by an adult are very fearful of reporting. We know that children themselves who are victimized are very fearful of reporting. And so for children I think it's quite understandable why they don't report or make sometimes what later looks like a disclosure but at the time wasn't really clear what they were trying to communicate.</s>MINDY MITNICK: But adults know what they're seeing with their eyes and hearing with their ears and yet I think sometimes the notion is that this will be so disruptive to the institution that - and this is sort of a quote - we'll just handle it ourselves.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We want to ask our callers if they were a witness to sexual abuse, especially of children, and if they knew about such allegations in their church, their organization, their office, did they report it? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. John's calling us from Flagstaff, Arizona.</s>JOHN: Hi, Neal. Thank you for taking my call and thank you for having a show about this, this really painful issue. I work at the local university here at the swimming pool and there was a coach there that had a team of young girls and I caught him twice touching them and doing things that were wrong and I wrote it all up and put into(ph) paper, took it to human resources, and 10 days later I was fired.</s>JOHN: Five years after I was fired, he was brought to trial, given a 20 year sentence, and it – but by then the damage to these innocent young ladies was done. They will live with the scar for the, you know, for the rest of their lives. You know, so the thing about protecting the institution is really pretty disgusting because the (unintelligible) you protect the people and worry about the institution later.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You took it to HR, and forgive me, I don't mean to be cross-examining you, you took it to HR. Did you call the police?</s>JOHN: No. No, I did not call the police. I didn't. I must admit that, you know, after I lost my job I was trying to, you know, get another job and stay afloat and I didn't take it to the police. And that, you know, that was unfortunate. I'm sorry for that. I paid a high price for speaking up to the human resources department and I, you know, I...</s>JOHN: This sounds selfish, I know, but you know, I had rent to pay and I had two boys to take care of and so on. And so I didn't take it to the police and I regret that. I really do.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: John, thanks. I'm sorry, did you have something else to say?</s>JOHN: Well, this whole thing about, you know, we hear about this over and over and over again. You know, I mean Penn State and (unintelligible) over here and, you know, it seems like the organization just – the first thing they want to do is protect the organization. You know, like at Upper Big Branch mine and British Petroleum and everything is let's take care of the organization and the heck with the people. That's not right.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: John, thanks very much for the phone call. We appreciate you sharing your story. And Mindy Mitnick, there is an aspect of this - any official at Penn State has to, and I know that this sounds bad, but has to, as they hear these allegations, calculate in somebody is going to sue us for many millions of dollars, and that has to be part of their thinking, no?</s>MINDY MITNICK: I think it is, but I've worked on those kinds of lawsuits both for the institution and for the child victimized. And my experience is that when institutions come forward and say this was a terrible thing that happened, we are implementing policies to make sure that nothing like this can ever happen again, the people who have been victimized feel very differently about the institution than when their concerns, when the harm that's been done of the child, is brushed aside or covered up.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Or seemingly put in second place - second place to the future of the institution itself. Let's bring Amy Russell into the conversation, deputy director of the National Child Protection Training Center. She's an attorney and a counselor who trains organizations and people on how better to deal with sex abuse allegations and investigations. She joins us from Wisconsin Public Radio in Lacrosse, Wisconsin. Nice to have you with us today.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Thank you for having me.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And again, one of the consistent factors in these kinds of institutional stories is that someone other than the victim knew about it.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Correct.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And how do you develop a culture that encourages people to come forward?</s>AMY RUSSELL: Well, one of the things that Mindy said is really important. Institutions need to be able to acknowledge that there are some instances of abuse taking place within their organization. They need to be able to recognize that, and they need to establish policies, hopefully first to prevent them from happening. But then how do they respond if something does happen?</s>AMY RUSSELL: It needs to be an immediate response. It needs to be something where they conduct, they work with the authorities in conducting an investigation as opposed to trying to deal with it within their own confines of the organization.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The authorities, an important point. Do people need to be trained to call the police?</s>AMY RUSSELL: Training is absolutely critical. We need to train people when they're working in any kind of a field where abuses may take place. They need to understand how to recognize the signs and symptoms of victims. They need to recognize the signs and symptoms of all forms of maltreatment, and they need to understand what their responsibilities are as mandated reporters and how to report, and they need to understand that beyond the law, there's an ethical or moral obligation that they should adhere to in making those reports for protecting kids.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Because what we know about children is that they are probably not going to come forward on their own, and the abuse is going to continue unless somebody recognizes that it's taking place.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Mindy Mitnick, we're going to let you go in just a moment, but protecting the perpetrator, in many cases this is somebody you've known for many years. Certainly that's the case in the allegations at Penn State.</s>MINDY MITNICK: Yes, and in fact it's much easier for children to report when the perpetrator is a stranger to them or somebody who isn't important in their life and so much harder when it's somebody who is somebody they depend on, is somebody who has authority over them, is somebody who facilitates their participation in school activities, a religious organization.</s>MINDY MITNICK: And so all of those are much more difficult for children to let others know about because there really is this sort of sense of who are they going to believe. Are they going to believe me or this person who has so much more power and authority than me?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Mindy Mitnick, a licensed psychologist who works with witnesses and victims of abuse, with us today from her office in Minneapolis. Many thanks for being with us today.</s>MINDY MITNICK: And thank you for having me.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: More on failure to report abuse when we come back in just a moment. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. We're talking today about, well, coming off the allegations at Penn State University, why it is that in these stories that involve institutions, and they've involved, as we've mentioned, the Catholic Church, other religious groups, the Boy Scouts and, well, now Penn State football.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: People knew about the allegations of abuse. Some witnessed it yet did not come forward or did not do enough to actually make the abuse stop. In the Penn State case, the allegations involve 10- and 11-year-old boys. Why not? If that's you, call and tell us, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. Our guest is Amy Russell, deputy director of the National Child Protection Training Center.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And let's see if we can get another caller on the line. Let's go to Scott(ph), Scott with us from Greenville in Tennessee.</s>SCOTT: Hello.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Scott, you're on the air, go ahead please.</s>SCOTT: Well, I'm the pastor of a church, and an allegation was brought to me about an inappropriate conversational topic that an adult had with a young person at our church in a group setting, but they were alone. They were off to the side. And the parent of the child came to me, you know, very upset about this topic that was discussed.</s>And I found myself asking a question: Is that illegal? And what do you do? And we have a policy in place, we call it safe sanctuary policy, and so we - two of us are supposed to deal with it, two people, and we decided that since we didn't know the answer to the question is it illegal that we needed to talk to someone who would know the answer, which would be either a lawyer or a police officer.</s>And I found myself asking a question: So we called the police, and an investigation was begun, and eventually an arrest was made.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And do you feel as if you did the right thing?</s>SCOTT: There's no doubt. It was the worst thing I've ever, and I've ever been through. It was horrific.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Did you know the person?</s>SCOTT: And - but the thing is given what happened, I believe that we did the best we could to protect the victims and children.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Did you know the person who...?</s>SCOTT: Oh, I knew him for years, seven, eight years before this was made, this allegation, and could not believe it, could not believe it was true. But my training have said that children rarely lie. It's rarely made up. And so we elected to just believe that, you know, that for the sake of this argument, let's believe it's true, let's go to the authorities who can do so much more than we can to determine the truth, you know.</s>SCOTT: I spent 90 minutes with this detective in my office. He interviewed me for 90 minutes, and when it was done, I went in my bathroom, and I vomited because I knew then in my heart, after what the police officer had told me, I knew that it was true. I knew, I knew where this was going.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Scott, thank you very much for the call. Amy Russell, it seems to me - well, he said a number of important things there, but one of them was they had a policy in place.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Yes, policies are critical. The training for folks that are going to be having any kind of a contact with children, it's important that we are trained, adequately trained, in again recognizing the signs and symptoms of abuse and understanding how to respond.</s>AMY RUSSELL: And one of the things that Scott had mentioned was that, you know, he just didn't know what to do and reached out for help. And that was fabulous, that he took the opportunity to reach out for somebody who has the expertise. A myth that a lot of people have when they're working with kids, and there's some kind of a concern or an allegation that comes up, is that they have to be able to prove that abuse is taking place before they call the authorities.</s>AMY RUSSELL: And that is absolutely not what the responsibility is for mandated reporters, and again going back to a moral or an ethical obligation, you don't have to prove it out. That's why we have investigative systems in place. When there is a reasonable suspicion that something inappropriate is going on, a call should go out to authorities, must go out in cases of mandated reporters, and let them investigate it. Let them figure out what's going on.</s>AMY RUSSELL: That's really what's critical. So policies that are in place that mandate external reporting is really critical.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from a listener who asks that we not use her name: I knew of abuse in my family as a child and did not report it. The family member offended another victim after I became an adult, and I told the victim's parent, and she reported it to the authorities. Had I reported it the first time, I might have saved future victims. The guilt will haunt me forever.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this from Ermilla(ph) in Tallahassee: As a child I did not realize that what I was going through was abuse. We trust adults and assume that's just how things are supposed to be, even more so if it's a trusted adult perpetrating the abuse. We're brought up to believe that the big people know best and sometimes have no idea that this is just not true.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get Katie(ph) on the line, and Katie's calling us from San Antonio.</s>KATIE: Hi, I knew of a girl in my high school, she was a really good friend of mine, she had a sexual relationship with one of the teachers, but she approached my friends and I and said that we shouldn't say anything to the administration because she was afraid of what was going to happen to her.</s>KATIE: And also, he was very influential in the school district. He had a lot of power and a lot of money, and he was just a teacher, but she was just too afraid for us to go forward and for herself, as well.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And what happened?</s>KATIE: Well, he remained a teacher, and about two years ago, we saw on the news that he was finally what they said retired. But there was a rumor going around that he once again had a sexual relationship and that the administration let him go.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let him go - well, all right, Katie, thank you very much. The caller - in retrospect, do you think you should have done differently?</s>KATIE: Absolutely. I was only 16 at the time, and I was really scared for her, and I didn't know what to do, and I wasn't really aware of what I could have done. But now that I'm older, and I see this man from Penn State, what he did, I see that absolutely we should have gone forward, and I regret not saying anything.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Katie, thanks very much for the call. And Amy Russell, there seems to have been a pattern in some institutions, and this has been known to happen in schools, we'll just let this person go, and let's not create a fuss here. As long as they're not here, they can't hurt another one of our students.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Right, and unfortunately what that leads to is they'll move on to someplace else. People don't know the background. They don't know the history of this person. They don't know what they've done in other organizations in which they've worked, and that frees them up to continue victimizing.</s>AMY RUSSELL: And these kids who have said, you know, first of all she had a sexual relationship, it wasn't a relationship, it was sexual abuse with an adult. And the responsibility didn't fall on her teenage friends to come forward and tell anybody. The responsibility should have fallen to the colleagues working with this person.</s>AMY RUSSELL: I would venture a guess to say that these colleagues that worked with this teacher probably had some suspicion or some concerns that were some inappropriate contacts or relationships between this teacher and some of the students. And what we know from research, what we know from practical exp, is when people know somebody else, when they work closely with them, they are less likely to report them.</s>AMY RUSSELL: They don't want to get people in trouble. They feel like they need to be able to prove out the allegation. They don't want to ruin relationships. And that's just not the case. What we should be worried about is the children and the harm that this continuing - this person continuing to work with these children is doing. And that's why those policies are so critical to set in place.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Oftentimes schools will have policies that say, you know, if you suspect abuse, go to the principal, and the principal will do an investigation, or they'll figure something out, and they'll make the report when in fact that shouldn't be the way the policies work.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Each of us have an individual responsibility to report, and there was a mention earlier about the Boy Scouts. In fact, the Boy Scouts are one of the organizations who's done a great deal of work to turn around that public perception, to turn around some of the policies that were not helpful for kids.</s>AMY RUSSELL: They've instituted a great deal of training. They've instituted no one-on-one interactions with kids. They have completely open programs, which doesn't allow secrets anymore, and they tell everybody who comes in contact with kids that youth protection begins with you.</s>AMY RUSSELL: We have to institute those kinds of training programs and policies within organizations, and we need to back that up with ongoing training. We need to train people who are coming up through colleges in how to deal with kids, how to recognize signs and symptoms.</s>AMY RUSSELL: So it can't just be once they're out on the job. We need to start at the university level requiring that students who may have an interest in working with kids to start learning about all of these aspects of how to keep kids safe, as well.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Rocco Palmo is a journalist and founder of the blog Whispers in the Loggia. He's done extensive reporting on the Catholic Church and its response to the sex abuse scandal and joins us now from a studio in Philadelphia. Rocco Palmo, thank you very much for being with us today.</s>ROCCO PALMO: Thanks for having me, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Philadelphia, obviously, not all that far from Penn State. I'm sure that's on everybody's mind.</s>ROCCO PALMO: Well, it's ground zero here. I think we have something like 300,000 Penn State alums just in this metropolitan area, including half of my family. So it's been a very tumultuous week around here, yeah.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In your reporting on the Catholic Church - and again, this is an institution that's working hard to change perceptions and change realities. But this, for many, many years, way too long, allowed priests who are known to have abused children, to move on to other parishes.</s>ROCCO PALMO: Well, one thing you have to remember, Neal, you know, we're coming up, it's amazing where time goes – January will be 10 years since the Boston Globe first reported the scandal, and it became a national eruption from that point. But the way things have changed so much, I mean it's been a staggering shift. But, you know, you were saying earlier about the need for policies, but - one thing the church has learned, I think, the last 10 years is that policies alone aren't enough. You know, you need enforcement mechanisms and you need to kind of make examples of people who don't report. And that was the biggest problem for many years, that people turned and look the other way, because, like the caller earlier said, they had concerns about their jobs, their livelihoods, especially when you're kind of wedded to the institution as opposed to it just being a job. And so it's been a long time of (unintelligible) learning, but you know, in a fairly quick space of time.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And an institution where as you say people are wedded to it, the Catholic church is unique in that respect, I think. But there are still people lodged within that institution who face allegations that they did not do enough.</s>ROCCO PALMO: Well, you have that, but I think that now you have it being handled within the criminal justice system in a way we didn't before, you know? Remember, for the first time last month, you have a bishop now indicted, the bishop of Kansas City, Missouri. He'll face trial next year. You have a former vicar for clergy, head of clergy personnel here in Philadelphia, because we had our own grand jury report about the archdiocese in sexual abuse this year, going to trial in March. And so I think that's a needed deterrent.</s>ROCCO PALMO: I mean, even just earlier, you know, even just in terms of how the church handles its own processes, there was a story I had heard out of California where a priest who failed to - who knew that another priest was abusing, just last year, and failed to report it to his bishop or to the authorities, that priest was removed from ministry. That's usually to be a penalty reserved for those who have abused themselves.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So...</s>ROCCO PALMO: So it shows the church has come a long way.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about failure to report abuse and why it happens. Our guest, Rocco Palma, you just heard, a journalist and founder of the blog Whispers in the Loggia. Also with us, Amy Russell, deputy director of the National Child Protection Training Center. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And let's get Mary on the line, Mary calling us from Pensacola.</s>MARY: Hello. In the year 2008, a three-year-old relative of mine disclosed to me that he was being sexually abused by the husband of a day care center director in a prominent church in Pensacola, Florida. I reported it immediately to law enforcement. The three-year-old continued to disclose episodes to me but would not cooperate in the interview that was conducted by the child welfare authorities. Essentially they didn't consider the allegation to be credible. And although the child would continually tell me about other children that were being victimized, the specific acts that were done to him, I was heartbroken that I couldn't get the help from either law enforcement, I went to the child welfare authorities, I wrote to the FBI. I did everything in my power. I put out an ad in the paper, trying to get information out to the community to protect these children. But there was no success at all, and I think it's because when a child is that young...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Mm-hmm.</s>MARY: ...people just don't want to believe that anything that horrendous could happen, or that a female would assist a male in harming children. I think that's another big issue, that women sometimes enable their spouses.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Amy Russell, is Mary's perception accurate or is it also sometimes a problem in law enforcement groups that they know if they bring these allegations, it will have a huge impact no matter what. Even if they're proven not to be true, some people will never believe it.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Well, an investigation requires a lot of things. Part of that, for Mary's comment, the child didn't disclose to the authorities. And when they can't get that kind of information from the child, there has to be a full and complete investigation from other sources. We can't just rely on a child to come forward and be able to give us everything. We have to do full investigations. We have to be training professionals on how to conduct good interviews, age appropriate, defensible interviews with children, and then follow up with corroborating any aspect of what the child says and any aspect of what other people talk about.</s>AMY RUSSELL: So this caller who talks about the child had reported to her, the investigators - I'm not sure what happened in the case, but they should have talked to her to gather as much information from her as well, interviewed other children in the daycare center who may also are likely victims. If this child is being victimized, there's probably other kids that are being victimized as well, previous folks who had their children in the daycare center. It should have been a full-fledged investigation. I don't know what happened. I can't speak to that. But that's one of the things that we're training people on, is that we have to get the reports in and then we have to do full and complete investigations by professionals who are adequately trained to be able to conduct those investigations.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Mary, I'm so - I'm so sorry nothing happened. I thank you, though, for the call.</s>MARY: You're welcome.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Email from Linda in San Antonio: For mandated reporters, it's important to note that people who report are protected by Good Samaritan laws. One must not wait until they know abuse has taken place. One must report when they suspect abuse has taken place.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Amy Russell, we've heard that term a couple of times. Mandated reporters? Who is that?</s>AMY RUSSELL: Yes. Mandated reporters are defined by state law, and usually it's professionals who work with children. Most frequently that includes medical professionals, educators, coaches, anybody affiliated with an educational program, anybody who's a therapist or counselor for children. It goes - depending on the state, it could be more narrow, it could be broader. There are some states, in fact, who have identified everybody as a mandated reporter. Everybody, regardless of what profession they're in, they have the responsibility to help protect children as well, which I think is a great policy for states to have.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're going to continue this conversation after a short break, about what drives some people to keep quiet on allegations of sexual abuse and what organizations can do to change that. Plus, we'll talk about the next billion-dollar videogame in the "Call to Duty" franchise. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're going to continue our conversation with Amy Russell of the National Child Protection Training Center and Rocco Palmo, journalist and founder of the blog Whispers in the Loggia, who's written in the - also written for The Tablet, a Catholic weekly newspaper.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Michael(ph) Palmo, I wanted to follow up with you. As we keep finding out about how these different kinds of institutions have handled these questions, every time you hope that the experience of the Boy Scouts or the Catholic Church or another such institution would be a lesson for others, each time it seems to come as a shock and a surprise.</s>ROCCO PALMO: No question, Neal, and I think particularly in this case because, again, you know, for any listeners who aren't so familiar with college football, what's - I've joked over the years - I never expected anything like this story, but I've always joked that the largest religion in Pennsylvania is Penn State football. It's very much like it is in the South, you know, just that kind of devotion, almost fanatical to the team and especially to this icon of Joe Paterno.</s>ROCCO PALMO: And Paterno has always built this program around this concept of morality, of ethics, of you know, the old way of doing things before college football became, you know, a 500 billion-dollar enterprise. And so, you know, while other programs, people would, you know, be let down by revelations of this sort, you know, Paterno's motto has always been success with honor.</s>ROCCO PALMO: And the fact that the honor, the Penn State football program is now in a shredder, effectively - and we'll see what actions are going to be taken by the board and everything - it's like the fall of the church. It's like the fall of a religion because people here don't just watch Penn State football. They live it. It's something they believe in, and it makes it all the more stunning and heart-wrenching, especially for the fans.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Does it need to, at this point, be blown up and started again from scratch?</s>ROCCO PALMO: Well, it seems like that's what's going to happen. Obviously Paterno announced his resignation this morning, but we've heard nothing from the board on that. So you're - it may end up being - there's already a huge public call in the press that he should not coach again on Saturday. He should not have the privilege of coaching one last - the last home football game of the season before 100,000 fans.</s>ROCCO PALMO: Seems, according to reports, the president of the university, Graham Spanier, is either going to be ejected from office or will announce his resignation later today. The two officials who have been charged have already stepped down. So I mean, for a school the size of Penn State, one of the 10 largest universities in the country, this is already - and even without a single trial - these are just allegations, of course - a major, major shake-up is underway.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Eddie, and Eddie is on the line with us from Detroit.</s>EDDIE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Sure.</s>EDDIE: I'm a former social worker, foster parent, and I'm currently a special education teacher. Unlike your - what your guest suggested, I would not report one of my fellow teachers that's based on suspicion alone. I would have to have evidence. I know about abuse, but I also know there's some people falsely imprisoned, losing their jobs, careers ruined, damaged by false allegations.</s>EDDIE: She seems to be rushing to judgment even when she said we have to have protocols in place for defensible interviews. She didn't say truthful interviews. She said defensible interviews with children. Well, I've seen this kind of paranoia before in the '80s with the child care, people who were falsely imprisoned on what were later proved to be false allegations of abuse in child care settings. We've got to be careful always that we follow - that everybody gets due process no matter how horrendous the suspicion. There has to be evidence.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I think you're referring to the recovered memory cases in...</s>EDDIE: Recovered memory. There's a young woman in New Jersey who spent years in prison. There was a big case out in California.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah, I...</s>EDDIE: They're all over the country.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Amy Russell, I wanted you to come back and address Eddie's question.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Absolutely. And, in fact, a defensible interview is one that looks for accurate statements within a child's interview, and then it doesn't stop there. There has to be more of an investigation. We're not making a decision or a conclusion based solely on anybody's report of abuse. The report initiates an investigation. And we have learned. There were, unfortunately, some poorly conducted investigations in the '80s, and what we've done is learned from those. My organization is one in particular who has worked very hard to train other people on how to conduct appropriate investigations and forensic interviews when there are allegations. And there are, unfortunately, false allegations of abuse, but they are rare. And when we do complete investigations with good, well-trained interviewers and follow up those interviews to try to find corroborating evidence, we are weeding out those false allegations. When we work together as multidisciplinary teams to do a complete investigation to try to get to the truth of the matter, that's when we're doing our service.</s>AMY RUSSELL: If we're not reporting, because people feel like they have to have proof before they go forward - quite frankly, teachers aren't trained as investigators. They're not trained in understanding the dynamics of victimization. Coaches aren't trained in understanding how they have to gather evidence. So it's critical that folks that are working with kids make the report and allow the professionals who have the training to do their job and do those investigations.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Eddie...</s>EDDIE CALLER: That's a lot of ifs. And you know people are willing to throw out due process in a second if it's a horrendous charge like child abuse.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Eddie, are you a mandated reporter?</s>EDDIE CALLER: Yes, I am. And I would have to have evidence, not just somebody's suspicion. I would have to have evidence. And I'm a foster care - foster parent. I can't suspect, you know, I know about sexual abuse, and I know children who've been sexually abused. And you have to have evidence. You can't just go on a whisper. There's been plenty of cases of teachers who've been falsely accused, and their careers are over. Their lives are ruined because everybody will always suspect that they just got off on this charge, and they really are a child molester.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Eddie, thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it.</s>EDDIE CALLER: OK.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If - I guess the laws in different states are probably different. But if you are a mandated reporter and you did not report suspicions, could you face problems?</s>AMY RUSSELL: Yes. There - the statutes do vary across the country. But there's - there are statutes in place, that if you failed to report when you have reasonable suspicion, not evidence, but reasonable suspicion, that abuse is going on - there are protections in place for the person who reports those cases when it turns out to be unfounded. But when they're not reported, those folks can be held responsible for the outcomes, perhaps, even as much as if a child dies as a result of that. Those people can be held responsible for that child's death because they had that reasonable suspicion and failed to report.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Rocco Palmo, let me ask with - and end with this question. The scandal in the Catholic church was so pervasive, not just in this country but in many other countries, too. So far up the chain, are you now convinced that there's been a cultural change and this institution has changed fundamentally?</s>ROCCO PALMO: Absolutely, Neal. And, you know, just for an example, 10 years ago, there was Vatican resistance when the U.S. bishops passed the zero tolerance policy on abuse. Now, the U.S. bishops' policies have been enacted as a global canon law by Pope Benedict, just to give you one example. But, you know, I think we're seeing that same kind of cultural shift here. You have to remember, there was a time, and this is the time that Joe Paterno and his program embodied. That was, you know, the old culture when these - when, you know, reports of abuse or child sexual abuse was swept under the rug, and the preference, the prejudice was in favor of the perpetrator.</s>ROCCO PALMO: But now we live in a society, we live in a world, we understand that the preference has to be on the side of the victim, on the innocent. And that kind of culture, the fact that that was operative at Penn State, you know, for all of the, kind of, glories of the program on, you know, just as in the church, we saw it's undersight.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Rocco Palmo, thanks very much for your time.</s>ROCCO PALMO: Thank you, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Rocco Palmo of the blog Whispers in the Loggia joined us from Philadelphia. Amy Russell, we appreciate your time today as well.</s>AMY RUSSELL: Thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Amy Russell, deputy director of the National Child Protection Training Center, with us from Wisconsin Public Radio in La Crosse. We'll be back with more about the next billion-dollar video game, shortly. |
Best-selling author Keith Boykin just earned two Black Weblog Awards, including the Black Blogger Achievement Award. Boykin talks with Farai Chideya about his blogging career and the meaning of this recent honor. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: The field Negro, well, yeah, maybe that's in the history books, but it's also in the blogosphere. We've got BET host Keith Boykin and Tyra Banks all having at least one thing in common now. They are Black Weblog Award winners. And this week, the winners were announced for some of the best black blogging in 30 categories: Blog of the Year, Best Podcast and the Black Blogger Achievement Award.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There were two sets of winners, one by popular choice and the second by a panel of judges. This is the third year the Black Weblog Awards have been handed out, and I used handed out loosely though because there aren't trophies or medals. There's just bragging rights in the rapidly expanding black blogosphere.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith Boykin is the creator of keithboykin.com. He has those rights. The best-selling author just won the Black Blogger Achievement Award by popular vote, and he's also the people's choice for best lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender blog.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hey Keith, how are you doing?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Hey, Farai, how are you?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Congratulations.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Thank you very much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you are someone who can pop up any word anytime on the radio, on TV, you've got books. What makes your blog important to you?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Well, it's really a way for me to connect all the different things that I do. You know, I do TV, as you've said before, I'm happy to do this radio interview with you today, and, you know, I write books, and all these things are connected to one another. I get a chance to use the blog as a vehicle to talk about race, politics, sexuality, all the things that I talk about in the other media, and so it actually helps me to communicate those in a different sphere.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How did you find out that you had gotten this award?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): I'm a little embarrassed to admit how I found out. I didn't know about it actually. I didn't campaign for it. I didn't nominate myself or anything. I found out because I do a daily search of my name on Google, which I should probably shouldn't have said in public.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: No shame in that game.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): And it came up the other day. I think it was yesterday, it came up and I was like, oh, wow, what is this? This is something new. Actually, it was a Technorati that brought it up, and I looked into it. I was like, wow, I won this award and didn't know about it. Nobody ever contacted me and told me about it, strangely enough.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's the best kind of, you know, morning surprise and so…</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Yes, it is. It is. Because normally, when I do a search, I find people saying horrible things about me.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Oh, I disagree with Keith Boykin about this and that, you know? So it's good to see something positive for a change.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So your blog deals with basically whatever you want it to, but you deal a lot with the intersection of race and sexuality. Why do you think it's important, if you think it's important, for a blog like yours to be recognized, you know, as part of the African-American blogging community?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Well, you know, when I started doing the blog, I think three or four years ago, it was something I added on to the Web site because it was just basically a vanity site to promote the work that I do. And my Web designer suggested that I add this. My Web designer was a black - is a black gay man, who encouraged me to create this vehicle, this community for people to have.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): And it didn't occur to me at the time how important it would be but I think he was right about that. And I think it's important for the overall black community as well because the LGBT, which stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community, often gets ignored in the larger black community. And the black people often get ignored in the larger gay community, too. So it's good for people to have a space where they can feel that they are a part of something that is for them.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now how do people react to your blog? I don't just mean people who are fans but people who may, as you mentioned earlier, disagree with you and that may come and only post on your comment's page when they say well, gosh, I fundamentally think that he's wrong?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Well, you know, I'm always amazed what a proprietary interest people have in my blog, in my Web site. You know, people write in to tell me things that they disagree with and tell me what they think I should be doing or what they think I should be writing. For example, I published something this week, which I called My Black List, which is a list of 100 people who inspire me, and you are on that list actually, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, thank you.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): There a hundred black people who really inspire me for different reasons, and people wrote in in the comment's section said, you missed someone on this list, you should have put this person, you should have put that person. And I'm thinking well, this is not your list. This is my list. It's not the definitive list. It's not an exhaustive list. It's just a hundred people who happen to inspire me who happen to be black.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): And it's funny, though, that because people feel like they have a certain sort of sense of ownership over what you say and what you do and they want to make sure that their voice gets communicated through your words.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We, of course, have our own blog News & Views at nprnewsandviews.org and we love getting people - I mean, I - someone recently corrected me because I had listed the author of a book wrong, or I put out a column and said who was that that covered of "Rich Girl?" It turns out that Nina Simone covered Hall & Oates' "Rich Girl." I love that interchange. Even when somebody's calling me out because I've done something wrong or something they think is wrong, I love that interchange. Do you get a certain energy out of that process?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): I do. You know, I'd say 95 percent of the time I love it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. I know about - I know what that 5 percent feels like.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Right, 5 percent I feel like…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's like someone flicking a rubber band at the back of your head.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Exactly. You know, there are some people who come on a regular basis just to tell me how much they hate me, which I always think is amusing to me. You know, they would spend so much time and energy to go to somebody's Web site to tell them that they don't like that person. But that's, you know, that's really the exception, not the rule. I think most of the comments are very insightful and productive. There's a whole community of people who comment regularly.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): And what I like about it, too, is that the comments often get me to see something I hadn't seen before. I'll write something and then I'll get another perspective from somebody who I hadn't expected to hear from or I thought I hadn't expected to hear, and it really helps me to frame the idea that I present. There have been times I've been on CNN and done discussions about things I've written on my blog and changed what I've said on TV because of what people have written in the comments on my site.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, this is all fairly new. How important do you think it is, really, to have a presence online as well as in all the other forms of what you do?</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): I think it's critical for me because, you know, I'm a lecturer, I'm doing the TV stuff, I'm occasionally doing radio and writing books at the same time. All these things are synergistically connected. They're all interrelated. And to the extent that someone can get access to me from one medium or another, I think it's useful because they all help to support the other from a business perspective, from a message perspective, from a branding perspective.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): It's just a no-lose situation. I think a blog is a critical element for someone like me who's a social commentator, political commentator, who's talking about things that are going on and people want to know what you have to say. The news happens in a daily basis. When Larry Craig announced that he was resigning or wasn't resigning or was intent to resign or whatever it was he was saying, people wanted to know what it was that I had to say about that, if anything. And so a blog gives you an opportunity to communicate directly to the public without the filter of the media.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, Keith, thanks so much.</s>Mr. KEITH BOYKIN (Broadcaster; Author; Creator, keithboykin.com): Thank you, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith Boykin has now added his name to the Black Weblog Awards and he's a broadcaster, author and creator of keithboykin.com. He co-hosts the BET talk show "My Two Cents." |
He's played a Nazi war criminal, a super mutant with a magnetic personality, and a master of Middle Earth magic. Now Ian McKellen returns to the stage to play one of its most challenging parts: Shakespeare's King Lear. He joins Farai Chideya to talk about his style, his favorite actors and his love for Lena Horne. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: He's played a Nazi war criminal, a super mutant with a magnetic personality and a wizard with a fate of Middle Earth on his shoulders. But Sir Ian McKellen never would have done Gandalf hath were it not for one man - William Shakespeare.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: McKellen spent much of his early years performing the works of the bard. And next month, the Royal Shakespeare Company will perform "King Lear" in Los Angeles with McKellen in the title role. The series is part of UCLA Live Sixth International Theater Festival. And McKellen says he loves Lear in part because he grew up watching some of the world's greatest actors bring him to life.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): John Gielgud, actually, when I was in my teens, and then they try Sir Charles Laughton play the part in Stratford-upon-Avon, and Laurence Olivier on television, and so it goes. And I think when you see the play really achieved on the stage, then that captures your imagination. But I wouldn't say it was a favorite play for stuff of mine, but this is my third time in the play, so it's a play that I've got to know over the years.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, what I love about it is the interaction with Cordelia, his daughter, because, to me, it says so much about family and how we misunderstand each other.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): There isn't a scene in Shakespeare, however remote the time of the setting, you know, that doesn't reverberate down the time to us today. And the scene of the upset(ph) of King Lear where just as King Lear is about to give away his daughter's hand in marriage to one of her two suitors, he asks her and her sisters to have a little challenge and tell them how much they love him.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): I think that's probably the scene that is played in every limousine as every father takes his daughter to be married, and he says, do you still love me? And she says, yes, I do, but, you know, I'm now getting married, and there's another man in my life.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): And I think that's why the bride's father is often more tearful than the bride herself because he is losing a daughter in the sense, and that's what Lear cannot stand it. But that seems to me a terribly, terribly normal situation, or however extreme of King Lear because he's an extreme person who takes it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I cannot heave my heart into my mouth. I love your majesty according to my bond, no more, no less.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): Yes. Well, she's probably a bit stubborn and a bit too honest, you know. There are ways of putting these things and she gets it wrong, and she's aware of that. But he gets it even more wrong, of course. There's nothing in Shakespeare that isn't so cosset to the vast human nature that it doesn't apply to our own lives, and that's what keeps the plays ever modern and ever fresh, and which allow - and allows each new group of actors who tackle the play to make it their own even whilst they're trying to be true to Shakespeare.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what got you out on the road? I'm sure that it's not always pleasant. You're hopping, scotching hotel to hotel…</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): You mustn't feel too sorry for me because I'm speaking from an apartment in China Town, which is in an old loft, and I'm looking out of a whole of Manhattan and I'm very, very lucky this week but - this month rather. But in Australia and New Zealand and Singapore, things weren't quite as comfortable.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): Now, it isn't easy being on the road, and long journeys take ages out of you, which you feel you ought to be presenting on stage. So you have to keep reminding yourselves we're not on holiday, you know, on vacation. This is work even though we're in strange and wonderful places. But the reason I got on the road is - because when I was a kid in the north of England, the great place that I saw were often done by actors who were touring.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, a lot of Americans may know you from your movie roles, I'm thinking specifically of "Lord of Rings" Gandalf. Is that a good thing, a bad thing or just a thing?</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): It's just a thing. Look, I like actors who do all sorts of different parts, and on the whole, I think, there are two sorts of successful actors. Some who always play themselves and wouldn't want it any different, you know. When you see Hugh Grant, you want to see Hugh Grant, don't you? You don't see Hugh Grant pretending to be somebody else. But then there are other actors more pretty and who like to play a range of parts in a range of styles in a range of media, and I'm one of those.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): And if someone comes to see me as King Lear because they know Gandalf, that's absolutely fine. And there was a 7-year-old kid who came to Stratford-upon-Avon where this production began earlier in the year, and he came with his parents to see Gandalf. He was 7 years old and he was waiting for me at the stage, thereafter and told me that "King Lear" was his favorite play ever.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, that's so fantastic.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): So there we go. I mean, that's, I think, how it works at best at least.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So it's your secret plan to use Gandalf to get little kids to…</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): No, that's not the plan…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …watch Shakespeare.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): …but if it works out that way, it's fine with me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I believe you told BBC that your Desert Island record would be Lena Horne's "Stormy Weather." Is that true? And if so, why?</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): Absolutely. Well, once when I was in New York on Broadway, I think this was 1980, I was doing Peter Shaffer's play, "Amadeus," for a year and Lena Horne was in town. I get just to see her in person and she has beautifully on song and with her whole range of sexiness and indignation and power was amazing.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): And what was special about that song was not that she's made it her own over the years, but she sang it surprisingly in the first half of the show. And normally, stars keep their signature tune and as an encore, but she sang it half way through the show, and I was very surprised.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): What was very moving and telling and clever of her was that when she got to the end of the second half of the show, she said, and now I'm going to sing a song, which I think I've been the right to sing over the years, and she sang it all over again in a delicate way quite differently, and it's very moving because of that.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): And when I was subsequently in New York, I did meet her backstage. And when I was back here about six years later on the first - my first night - there was a large bunch of white lilies just saying Love Lena. Perhaps, I can even call her my friend in that sense.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, that is absolutely delicious. Sir Ian, thank you so much.</s>Sir IAN McKELLEN (Actor): Well, a great pleasure to talk to you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sir Ian McKellen will play King Lear next month in Los Angeles as part of UCLA Live Sixth International Theater Festival. |
Discovery Channel's MythBusters have taken on more than 700 myths, from how hard it is to find a needle in a haystack (it's hard) to whether toothbrushes have fecal matter on them (they do). Series hosts Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage talk about the show with host Ira Flatow. | IRA FLATOW, HOST: Up next, blowing things up for science.</s>UNIDENTIFIED NARRATOR: It's that familiar "MythBusters" waiting game.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: That sewer is getting pretty full of methane.</s>UNIDENTIFIED NARRATOR: Small scale proved that the perfect stoichiometric ratio sent manholes flying. However, will the full scale equivalent, 100 cubic feet of methane, prove just as effective?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Shall we do it?</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: I think it's time.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: All right. Call it.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: All right. Real-world sewer explosion best-case scenario, sparking in three, two, one.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Wow. Look at that.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: That had to be 100 feet.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: That was insane. (Laughing)</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: There they are. They are the "MythBusters." If you watch the Discovery Channel, you know those two voices, the two guys who investigate, well, almost any myth you can think of. They get lots of ingenuity, duct tape, and the ever-present, occasional explosion. They and their team have looked at everything, from whether astronauts really landed on the moon, to whether you can actually knock someone's socks off. In that episode that we just heard, that you heard a bit of, they were trying to prove whether or not methane gas can blow the cover of a manhole. And as you heard, the answer is yes.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: As I say, you may have guessed from that big boom, the explosion that had. The "MythBusters" are here with us for the rest of the hour. You can talk about their show and how they bring science to TV in unlikely ways. Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage are co-hosts of Discovery Channel's "MythBusters" show. They're joining us from KQED in San Francisco. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Thanks, Ira. Hi.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Good to have you with us today.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: How are you doing?</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: We're delighted to be here.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: How many myths have you - think you've busted by now?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: I think we're breathing down the neck of a thousand. We've done almost 200 hours of "MythBusters" over the last decade.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Wow. Are either one of you trained in - as scientists?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Jamie's got a degree in Russian studies, and I have a high school diploma, so no.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Jamie, your wife is...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: We're totally unqualified.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Your wife is a science teacher though, right?</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: She is, yeah. She has a real degree in science and so, you know, she's very critical of what we do, needless to say.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: She watches it very closely. We're talking, this hour, about informal science education. And do you guys view yourselves as informal science teachers?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: We never set out to be, but it seems to be that this is a role we are fulfilling. I actually just got a lovely card from a little girl who happened to come by our shop a few months ago. And I happened to be on my way out to lunch, and I took a picture with her and her family. And she said that "MythBusters" is legendary among her home-schooled friends. She's home-schooled and says that it provides the foundation for all of the science they learn in home-schooling. And it's a little shocking, because honestly, we never set out to do that. But it's, you know, it's a very - it's a role we take seriously.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. I'm Ira Flatow, talking with Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman of the "MythBusters." And, you know, one of the interesting things that I show that you don't really see, but it soaks in, is that to do science, you have to collect data, right? You have to be able to not just, say, something is going to happen, but you have create an experiment and then collect the data on it.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Absolutely. This actually came to a head very early on. When were just sort of finding the shape of the show, we were doing, will a penny dropped from the Empire State Building kill you when it hits the ground. And we had some complex math that had been done by a NASA scientist as a hobby, where he figured the terminal velocity of a penny both on its edge and on its face. And we've included a little sequence, where Jamie and I talked through the math. But we were flying back from a location and I realized that I didn't think that was enough. Then I thought I could actually build a wind tunnel with two different speeds.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: And I was able to go back to the shop and make this. And actually, once I put the penny in this wind tunnel with both a high terminal velocity and low terminal velocity, the penny tumbled up and down inside the tube. And for me, that was the first point at which I started to really engage with - it's always about showing, not telling. We want to show what's going on. We want the audience to have the same intuitive grasp of the conclusion as we hopefully end up with.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Well, and also, without collecting the data, basically, what we do on the show would be not unlike what, say, a teenage boy would do if you handed him some firecrackers and matches. I mean, you know, he'd run around and blow a bunch of different things up. But he probably wouldn't write down the results, and he wouldn't do it methodically, or at least as methodically as we do. And oddly enough, that's part of the appeal of the show because it shows that this kind of stuff is actually fun. I mean, generally, science class isn't looked at as something where one runs around and blowing things up. But, you know, it - a lot of the different things that we approach, we're approaching the same way. We try things out. We get playful with them. We experiment, sometimes, you know, with a great deal of mischief in mind, but we're always actually fairly methodical about it.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Mm-hmm. And one of the attractions about learning and teaching, is that sometimes, you may think you know the answer, but until you'd go out and do the experiment, you really don't and maybe just the opposite of what you think.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Absolutely. That happens - people, that's one of the most common questions we get, how often are you guys surprised by the results? And the answer is, every freaking day. We just finished a few weeks ago filming a whole episode about the "Lethal Weapon 2" toilet explosion, where Danny Glover's stuck on a toilet with a bomb underneath it, and he and Mel leap into a bathtub, covered themselves with a bomb blanket.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: And we, like we do on the show, set out to replicate each portion of the myth and break it down, and then put it all together at the end. And the results absolutely gobsmacked us. We were unprepared for where they went. It was an amazing episode. And that's one of the best parts about it, is having an intuition, chasing it down, and realizing that you're wrong.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah. So it's quite interesting. Our number: 1-800-989-8255. We're with Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, co-hosts of the Discovery Channel's "MythBusters" show. And you got a question, you have a myth you want them to tackle, if it isn't on - they've already - haven't already tackled it in a thousand myths, give us a suggestion. Our number: 1-800-989-8255. You can tweet at - tweet us @scifri, S-C-I-F-R-I. I have my own favorite myth that maybe will get busted. So we'll talk about it when we get back. Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY, talking with the "MythBusters": Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman. Jamie is the one with the moustache. Yeah. People wonder how to keep them apart on the radio. He's on the left side. I'm right side. Our number - 1-800-989-8255 is our number. You guys are going on tour, I understand.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: We are.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah. We'll be all over the United States. And we've got a - you know, it's funny because when we go out in public, we're often asked to blow things up and so on, but we can't really do that because, well, you know, shrapnel and things like that. And so we've done our best to recreate some of the kinds of things that we do on the show - without shrapnel.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: We also get asked a lot to, you know, go do some appearance and bust a myth, and we point out that that would be a demonstration, and, truly, what we do on the show is an experimentation. So we've also tried to weave that in, and we plan to actually do some experiments on the audience itself. There's a ton of audience participation built into this show. We've been writing it for the last few weeks, and we are super, super excited about it. I should point out that tickets can be bought at mythbusterstour.com, and they went on sale today.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah. 11/11/11. 1-800-989-8255 is our number. Let's take a few more calls here. Hi. Bonnie in Fairfax, Virginia. Hi, Bonnie.</s>BONNIE: Hi there.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Hi there. Go ahead.</s>BONNIE: So, I just have to say thanks to the "MythBusters" there because they give me so many lessons for my science classes. I've taught high school earth science, and these last two years I've been teaching middle school, seventh and eighth grade science classes. And, guys, you guys just give me so much material for class.</s>BONNIE: It's uncanny, because I can be teaching about Newton's laws or whatever, and I can pull up a clip of your show and demonstrate, just looking at the show, you know, some of the applications of Newton's laws. And then the kids and I can talk about, you know, what are some other ways that we could have tested that myth? Or how are the laws being applied in that particular episode? Or - who knows; I can't remember all of the different times I've used it.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Oh, good for you. Thank you. Thank you.</s>BONNIE: So - thank you. Thank you. Thank you.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: You're welcome.</s>BONNIE: It's a fabulous, fabulous show. And my family watches it, including my six-year-old.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: There you go. Thank you, Bonnie. And that's really - you love to hear those calls, don't you, when people...</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Totally. But keep the six-year-old away from matches.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: And exploding things.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Yes.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: I wonder how these teachers can do this stuff without exploding the stuff up in their classrooms, doing...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Yeah, we get - we - Jamie and I have spoken a few times at both the California and National Science Teachers Association. And while there are definitely people who know deeply how much we screw things up, their - the level of appreciation and affection we get from science teachers is humbling. And they actually even say that, specifically, when we mess things up, it gives them even more fodder for Thursday mornings in class.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Right.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah, if only to point out what we did wrong, which we're perfectly OK with. You know, it's - we revisit a lot of the experiments we do, and we actually - it's very, I think, very powerful to point out that we like it when we do things wrong because that means that we make note of it and we learn about it. If you don't fail at something, if you don't screw something up, you're just going through the motions.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: And so, in our case, whenever we screw things up - you know, this is something that's important to get across to students, as well. It's not - science isn't about going in and just, you know, following the numbers. You're - you know, if you screw things up, that's good. Pay attention to it, and maybe you won't do that next time.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah. Yeah. We have scientists all the time saying that the road to success is littered with failures, all of them, eliminating what doesn't work. 1-800-989-8255. I used to do a show called "Newton's Apple" on PBS, 25...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: I remember that show.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: ...25 years ago, where we used to do demonstrations all the time. Thank you for remembering that. And I remember there was a huge staff behind me that no one ever saw. And I can imagine there must be a bunch of staff people behind you, helping you out, thinking how to make the experiments and putting them together.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: We - well, the figuring out of the experiments is Jamie and I. We have a fantastic crew here in San Francisco. It's about 25 people strong. In the 10 years I've been doing this show, many of our crew have been with us for the better part of a decade, so, at this point, it's like a big family.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah. We've got a couple of engineers on staff that - primarily, the brain power that comes out in the show is through our producers and us interacting along with the - what we call our researchers, or APs, that do all the digging when we find something that we need. If there's something we don't know and we need to find out more about it or we need materials or additional setups on a location, then the APs swing into action, and they kind of push it all through. But...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: They get us the permits that you're not supposed to be able to get.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Right. I get that. One of the tweets - a few people are tweeting in and asking: How many cameras do you break or blow up during any one of your episodes?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: In our camera room, we actually have a cabinet for all of the burnt, broken, waterlogged, blown-up cameras. We did have one camera which lasted for several years. It was like the undead cam, and we called it crunchy cam. While we were filming "Can you ignite gasoline from - that a car is spilling," we set fire to a camera, and this camera actually filmed itself on fire. And so we got it replaced, but it still worked. So it became our sacrificial lamb. And whenever there was, like, a ground zero, we'd put that camera there, and it kept on surviving, kept on surviving. For about three years, it was the camera that wouldn't die.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: I have one of my myths - and I'll talk a little bit about it later - that you guys have busted, was about using cell phones on airplanes and affecting the navigation system, was it, and you debunked that myth. Tell us about that a little bit.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Well, yeah. Kari, Grant and Tory tackled that, and it was very - that was actually one of the most difficult ones the researchers and APs ever had to permit. The FAA has a guideline that bans all use of cell phones on aircraft in the United States. And it's not legally binding, but the airlines don't go against it. And we couldn't get a special dispensation to do it. We had to do it as a ground test. So Kari, Grant and Tory found no correlation between the use of electronics and interruption with the avionics of the plane.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: That's not to say that it's not possible. There's been studies that have shown some links, studies that have shown no links. There's no smoking gun. But honestly, the more I think about it, the less I care, because I just don't want the guy next to me on the plane talking on his phone.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: But you at least like to know if there are any real data showing any links, you know. And if it were really dangerous - I'll talk about this later. It's just that...</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: I would just like to see the studies. You know, will that go one way or the other?</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Well, there is a...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Well - so Boeing actually did a - I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jamie.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: There is a side note that one could make about that, which I don't believe we've actually tested, and we probably will at some point: when bomb techs or blasting - people that are doing blasting are in the zone where they're actually about to set something off, it's a radio-silence area. They're - it is possible for radio waves to create a spark by accident somehow. And so they often use - in fact, the standard for them to actually set off high explosives for mining and so on is something called NONEL, which is - it's not an electrical wire like you would expect from the, you know, the box with the plunger in it that shows up in movies.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: It's actually a plastic tube with a chemical in it that requires a small detonation to light that, that chemical off, which zips down this tube to the other end that - and sets off the blasting cap there. So this is a real issue as far as radio waves are concerned. Obviously, on - as far as cell phones, you know, the amount of power that they're putting out is so small that it really is questionable that it would cause anything like that. But...</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: And now we have...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Well, Boeing did a...</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Go ahead. I want to hear about that. No, go ahead, talk about the Boeing...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Boeing did one of my favorite studies in conjunction with a magazine, where anytime a pilot felt like they'd seen an anomaly that they could trace to someone having turned on a device on a plane, they actually worked very diligently to buy as many of those - like, someone would turn on their phone and they might see something in the avionics, they'd rush right back there and offer them money for the phone. And then they would take it back to their labs and test it against their avionics. And throughout this extensive set of tests, they weren't able to find any correlation between the operation of the devices and the interruption with any of the functions of the avionics.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: And now we have - you're allowed to use WiFi on the airplane.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Right. Exactly. And my WiFi transmitter is a pretty powerful, powerful antenna.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah. So we're going to actually do a - ask for a shout-out on the - at the end of the program, people to send us any information they may have. We'll be happy to pass it on to you and...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Absolutely.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Yeah. I know. Maybe I can get to come on your show and present some sort of...</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: You're welcome anytime, Ira.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Anytime.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Thank you. 1-800-989-8255. Let's go to Tom in Connecticut. Hi, Tom.</s>TOM: Hey there.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Hi, there.</s>TOM: I am a fan. I'm 67, and I still love your show. And I was, as a teenager, blowing up stuff with firecrackers. But anyhow, there is urban myth in - on the Internet, and my wife says, look at that. You can't do that. Anyhow, it's the cell phone, when you're filling up the car. Does it ignite anything? Or is it just bogus?</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: We found that it's bogus, but it's one of those interesting things that points out the value of experimentation, because when we were - we staked out a gas station and watched what people were doing. I mean, of course, first we tried to just simply cause sparks and set fires with cell phones. We were unable to do so. But then we staked out this gas station and watched what people were doing...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Which is a horrifying exercise if you ever do it, watching how cavalierly people deal with gasoline.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: People with a cigarette in one hand and a cell phone in the other while they're filling gas. But what we saw happen was a lot of people were getting in and out of their cars. And they were - they might have been...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: While they were filling up.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah. While they were filling up. And so we did some tests, and we found that it is possible - and a lot of people know that it's possible - to have a static spark generated by the upholstery in their car or by, you know, from the car itself. Sometimes you get out of the car and you get sparked. And so they might have thought that it was their cell phone that set off a fire, but it not necessarily was. It could have been that static spark. And that's - you only see that from experimenting and trying things out.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: And people don't realize that the, you know, the resistance of air is about 10,000 volts per centimeter. So if you static spark a half-inch spark off your fingertip, that's 5,000 volts. And we showed on the show that was plenty to ignite gasoline. And now, in California, there are stickers on the gas pumps that say, specifically, don't get in and out of your car while you're filling with gas, because you can build up a static spark, and that could cause an explosion.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. Talking with the "MythBusters," Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage. What people don't realize about gasoline is that the fumes hug the ground, don't they? They can just travel along the ground without having to see the liquid at all.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Absolutely.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: And you guys showed that in one of your "MythBuster" experiments, causing...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Yeah, I think - yeah, it's very scary stuff. I've had it burning on my skin. We did one myth where we were throwing Molotov cocktails. And, yeah, the invisible gases are the thing I have gained the most respect and fear of in the course of doing this show.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: The other thing about gas fumes that we've tested and we've learned a lot about is that in the tank of gas in the car itself, it's only a very rare situation where it's - where there's - the fumes would be flammable. Outside the car is a different story, where there's plenty of air. But inside the tank, if there's any gasoline in there at all, it's going to be too rich, and it won't support flames. So all of those movies where somebody, you know, shoots at the car and, you know...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: The car blows up.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah, the car blows up because the gas tank got hit is just not...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Hogwash.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah. It's not possible. Only if the car was just, like, bone dry, practically.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: And you were shooting it with an incendiary tracer round.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Are there anything - short of a nuclear explosion. Are there any experiments - maybe I shouldn't even take that out of the equation - that are too...</s>ADAM SAVAGE: We've been asked to do the "Indiana Jones" refrigerator survival of the nuclear explosion many, many times.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Is that right?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: And short of that, is there anything you can't do, that you would not try?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: There's been one that's on the - well, there's two. One that's been on the list forever is to do the "Titanic." Will a sinking ship suck you down when you - if you're standing on it? And we've several times tried to get cameras on the decks of ships that they've sunk for artificial reefs around the world, but we've never been able to coordinate it.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: But we do have this one on the books about a tanker of liquid oxygen spilling on a roadway and turning the whole roadway into a bomb. And we did enough research into liquid oxygen to discover that it's, like, the scariest stuff on Earth. And it is super-volatile, super-unpredictable and really spooky.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Yeah. What would be happening in that case was that the asphalt in the, you know, in the pavement would be saturated with liquid oxygen, and it can become explosive. But - and we could test that on a small scale or whatever, but when it comes to doing it full-sized, we realized that there are things that you have to worry about, like what if there was a - you know, this is tons of liquid oxygen from one of these tanker trucks. And it's going turn into, you know, oxygen gas very quickly once it leaves the tank. Well, does that mean if you're, you know, a half a mile away from a highway, are all the cars going to, all of a sudden, be like they're on nitrous oxide and go 100 miles an hour?</s>ADAM SAVAGE: I love this image of a cloud of oxygen arriving on a roadway and all the cars accelerating to double the speed.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: We will wait to see you guys do that one.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Thank you to Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage, co-hosts of the Discovery Channel's "MythBusters" show. Good luck to you, and thanks for your work.</s>ADAM SAVAGE: Thanks, Ira.</s>JAMIE HYNEMAN: Thanks very much.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Good luck on your road show. That's - one of the myths we tackled today by "MythBusters" was about using cell phones on airplanes. I talked about, and they concluded that the cell phones - the idea that cell phones interfere with airplane navigation was a myth. But we'd like to actually - because it's SCIENCE FRIDAY, we want to take that one step further. We'd like to know what tests, experiments, data back up the need to turn off all the cell phones in your airplane. If cell phones are, indeed, a threat to the safe operation of an airplane, why don't they take them away from you, like they do a weapon? They don't tell you to put your gun on safety. They take it away from you.</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Well, in addition, when airplanes fly at 10,000 feet or lower, not only are cell phones not allowed to operate, but all electronic devices are turned off - everything, as they say. So what is it? What's the problem? We've gotten so many different explanations. We're not questioning that there are valid reasons for these things. We'd like to see the evidence. What studies have been done to show that cell phones, electronic devices should not be used on airplanes?</s>IRA FLATOW, HOST: Not anecdotal evidence we hear about; we want to see the real evidence, and if you have it, send it to us at cellphone@sciencefriday.com. If you know where the evidence is, if you have the evidence, if you work for a federal agency, anybody, you have evidence about why none of these things should be - cell phones, electronic devices should not be used. Are there real tests that show them? Are they - do they exist? Send us an email, cellphone@sciencefriday.com, and go to our Facebook and leave us a little note and a trail to find it. |
The unconventional opera legend Luciano Pavarotti paved the way for many performers, including the black singing trio Three Mo' Tenors. Three of the group's members — Duane Moody, James Berger and Victor Robertson — talk with Farai Chideya. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Some people sing and some people channel the divine. Luciano Pavarotti seemed to bring the heavens to the Earth.</s>Mr. LUCIANO PAVAROTTI (Opera Singer): (Singing) (Italian spoken)</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Pavarotti died yesterday at age 71 after a yearlong battle with pancreatic cancer. He often broke the mold of traditional opera by collaborating with acts like Barry White, Bono and James Brown.</s>Mr. JAMES BROWN (Singer; Songwriter): (Singing) This is a man's world.</s>Mr. LUCIANO PAVAROTTI (Opera Singer): (Singing) (Italian spoken)</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Pavarotti was one of the three original Three Tenors along with Placido Domingo and Jose Carreras.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There's a trio that continues that legacy but adds a little twist, and we are talking about Three Mo' Tenors. They infuse an African-American sensibility into music that includes, not only opera, but jazz, gospel, soul and blues. That singing puts a lot of strain on the vocalists, so the Three Mo' Tenors actually rotate among six different singers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And today, we've got three of them Duane Moody, Victor Robertson and James Berger.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome guys.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Thank you.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Hello.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And so I saw you guys in Baltimore with my mom. I totally loved it.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Get out of here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yes, it was just fabulous. So what was the first time that you heard Pavarotti sing - Duane, Victor, James? I don't know who wants to answer.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): The first time I heard Pavarotti, actually, was a recording. And I never had the pleasure of hearing him live. So - it was a recording in college.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): I think that everyone, if I remember a succession of(ph) singers where they - were the first time I heard Pavarotti and I was in the car, he was singing an aria from Boheme and it literally changed my life. I mean, there's a few moments if you're lucky that you can be changed like that, and I just thought that was the most glorious sound by a human ever.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right. I think my first exposure was in high school, which, you know, I just was forever changed because he's definitely a heavenly voice or something that's out of this world, absolutely.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you guys sing in these different modes, what is it about - opera has - it's a sort of cultural double-edged sword. It can come to symbolize exclusion…</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …keeping people out.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What is it that you find in opera - and, Victor, I'll go to you - that makes you think that it can inclusive as well?</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Well, I mean, the key is to keep opera relevant in today's society. We need new audiences. We need the younger people and you have directors like Baz Luhrmann, Francesca Zambello, Three Mo' Tenors. We're right now, we're off Broadway doing at the Little Schubert. What we're trying to do is bring people - bring the younger audiences to opera where it's not so intimidating and we - that's where we add a little twist to it.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): And that's what they can relate to and be culturalized(ph) also.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Culturalized? Culturalized?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I love that.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): New word.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): I just made it up.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Culturalize? Love it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. It's like you sprinkle a little culture fertilizer and it's - you're culturalize.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): That's why I made up that word.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): So I'm sticking to that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So James, what was one of the most unusual reactions you ever got from someone who maybe said something like, you know, I hate opera but you guys are great?</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): What was one of the most?</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): The children.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): It had to be the children.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): The children, yeah. I think we've done some things like at Lehman College before for, like, kindergarteners to eighth grade, and it's been amazing - the response. We even did some things at - the Albemarle(ph) School for, like, children that are…</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): No, Dance Theater of Harlem, sorry.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Dance Theater of Harlem. I'm Sorry.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): They seemed to be more attentive to the opera, weren't they?</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Yeah.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Very attentive. I never - what, it's Italian, and what were you saying and what was going - I mean, it was very - it was cool and all they need is exposure.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): That's all it is.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): I think they'd be very, you know, interested in after that so…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you guys are playing off Broadway.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What else do you have coming up?</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Oh, right now, that's it, the off-Broadway run at the Little Schubert on 42nd, and, hopefully, that run will extend until about January 27th, but we're looking forward to possible tours in the future as well. But right now, we're doing our sole concentration at the Little Schubert on 42nd.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That sounds great. Well, of course, we have to ask you to sing us a couple of bars in honor of Pavarotti.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Sure.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): That's right. Yeah.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Not a problem. Are you ready?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mm-hmm.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): We're doing the short one.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ready.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: THREE MO' TENORS (Singing Group): (Singing) (Italian spoken)</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bravo. Bravo.</s>Mr. DUANE MOODY (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Grazie. Grazie.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Duane, Victor, James, thank you so much.</s>Mr. VICTOR ROBERTSON (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): You're welcome. Thank you.</s>Mr. JAMES BERGER (Member, Three Mo' Tenors): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We were speaking with Duane Moody, Victor Robertson and James Berger of the eclectic musical trio, Three Mo Tenors. They joined us from our New York studios. |
When the Herman Cain harassment story broke, the accusers' names and their stories were blocked by confidentiality agreements. But one of those women has gone public, which raises questions about the purpose of confidentiality agreements, and how well they work. Lisa Banks, attorney and partner, Katz, Marshall and Banks | NEAL CONAN, host: When the Herman Cain harassment story broke in Politico almost two weeks ago now, the accusers' names and their stories were blocked by confidentiality agreements. Both have accepted settlements in exchange for a promise not to talk. Now, one of those women has gone public, which raises questions about the purpose of confidentiality agreements and how well they work. If you signed one, call and tell us why. 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Lisa Banks is an employment attorney and partner at Katz, Marshall & Banks and joins us from our office here in Washington. Good to have you with us.</s>LISA BANKS: Good to be here, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And a news site reported the name of Karen Kraushaar, and she confirmed that and says she will disclose details. Now, we don't know exactly what's in her confidentiality agreement with the National Restaurant Association. But as a rule, don't those usually constrain both sides?</s>LISA BANKS: Yes, they usually constrain both sides to some degree or another. Sometimes it's just the specific terms of the agreement or the payment. Sometimes it's the facts and allegations leading up to the agreement itself. So it can be very broad or it can be more narrowly tailored.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There were 12 years ago. Are there time limits sometimes?</s>LISA BANKS: Not usually. Usually, when you enter into a severance agreement or a settlement agreement when you leave an employer and there's a confidentiality agreement, it's forever.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And who are they meant to protect? Both sides, I suspect.</s>LISA BANKS: Yeah. Usually, they'll be mutual. So I have seen them one-sided. They're drafted by the employer, so those would be designed, obviously, to protect the employer. More often, and certainly if another lawyer is involved, they're going to be mutual, and that's designed to protect both sides. The employer wants to be protected in terms of any allegations that it doesn't want to come out or the amount of payment that it made. The person may want also to not have the circumstances of their departure made public because of future employment concerns.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Are these analogous to, well, plea agreements where someone says, well, I'm not saying I was guilty, but we reached a settlement, nobody can talk about it?</s>LISA BANKS: That's right. Usually, the - these kinds of settlement agreements, when there's a threatened legal claim will include what's called a non-admission clause, which is essentially the employer or even both parties saying neither party is admitting any liability whatsoever as to the allegations here. However, in order to avoid the expense and time of litigation, we're agreeing to come to a resolution.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Now, Herman Cain, a presidential candidate, had said these allegations have no merit. They are defamatory, he said, many other things. He no longer works for the National Restaurant Association, but does - do his disclosures breach the confidentiality agreement?</s>LISA BANKS: I would say yes, absolutely. I think that he's going to be a third party beneficiary to this agreement. He may be specifically included as a party to the agreement. We don't know until we see it. But in any event, by coming out and talking about or denying these allegations and impugning the women involved and also talking about what he believes the amount of the payments to be, I believe that he has breached the agreement himself.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: As we mentioned, there's a website that reported first the name of one of these women. She has since come out and said she may discuss details. If she does show, is she in breach of the confidentiality agreement?</s>LISA BANKS: She may technically be in breach. But for any of breach of contract action, there has to be damages. And the problem here for the National Restaurant Association or Herman Cain is there are going to be no damages. He's already been out there talking about it. So I think the restaurant association is going to be hard pressed to show that there's any damage from any of these women coming out and talking about it at this point. And I think the chances of them trying to go after these women for breach of the agreement is very remote.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Stepping outside these cases, if someone, just out of the blue, violated their confidentiality agreement and said the details of whatever it was that was involved, what recourse does the company have?</s>LISA BANKS: Well, the company - there are a couple of things. It's essentially a breach of contract. So the company can come after the person for a breach of contract. And again, they would have to show some sort of damages. And some of these agreements contain what is called the liquidated damages provision whereby the parties agree ahead of time what the damage might be. So if somebody is paid a year's salary walking out the door and they breach, there may be something in the agreement that says you have to pay back all of that money if you breach. We're agreeing ahead of time that that is our monetary damage. Otherwise, they would have to go forward, and they would have to prove that there actually were damages.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with attorney Lisa Banks about confidentiality agreements. If you signed one, call and tell us why. 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. And Teri(ph) is on the line with us from Northwest, Ohio.</s>TERI: Hi.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hi.</s>LISA BANKS: Hi.</s>TERI: I was calling because I had to sign a confidentiality agreement in order to receive funds that were owed at that day to a number of minority employees of a particular company that were not paid fair wages over a number of years. And a class action suit was filed and we won. But in order to get the money that we were owed, we had to sign a confidentiality agreement, which I really didn't think was fair.</s>LISA BANKS: Well, normally, if you're going to sign an agreement, there has to be what's called consideration. So if you were entitled to the money anyway, there really wouldn't be consideration. So there may have been other things involved in the agreement that were of value to you that the company would argue was worth you giving them the confidentiality agreement.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And if you didn't think it was fair, Teri, why did you sign it?</s>TERI: Well, because there was seven years of back wages that I actually needed. And so, in order to receive those wages as a settlement, we had to agree to a confidentiality. So, of course, I signed because there was really no other option if I wanted those dollars.</s>LISA BANKS: And the company, probably, took the position during that time that you weren't owed that much but was paying it in settlement of these claims.</s>TERI: Well they, again, claimed no real responsibility. They denied it. They did not admit to the fact that they had done what the court actually proved that they did do. But the payment was simply to stop any further types of actions or I think for - from stopping anyone from getting even more money by going and sue them individually rather than as a class action.</s>LISA BANKS: Right. And probably, the important part to the company was the release of claims. And oftentimes, these confidentiality agreements come within a larger legal agreement that includes a release of claims, the confidentiality agreement, non-disparagement, things of that nature.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Lisa Banks, is there an implicit threat that, well, maybe if you want to take this all the way through court trials and appeals and all of that against our serried ranks of lawyers over there, maybe you'll get more. But it's going to cost you a bundle.</s>LISA BANKS: Sure. And, you know, that goes both ways, however. There's always a risk for a company going forward because they have to pay a lot of money to defend a claim, and they're always at risk for a larger judgment down the road. So there's risk on both sides. And one of the reasons or the primary that people will settle early is to avoid that risk and to come to an agreement where everybody takes a little less or pays a little bit more than they wanted to.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And it goes away. Teri, thanks very much for the call.</s>TERI: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And you're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And let's go to Chris(ph), Chris with us from Modesto.</s>CHRIS: Hi. Yeah. When I was an undergraduate student at Georgia State University in the mid-'90s, I got a job as a research assistant, working for a PhD student. She was in research on eating disorders in college girls and their - it was a pretty in-depth measure. I was the only person who applied for the job, and I think she was kind of hoping for a female. But there were tons of confidentiality agreements involved because it was a very extensive inquiry. And there was also the fact that I may run into these people on campus. And so it was interesting. I scored about 350 measures over the course of a year for the PhD student.</s>CHRIS: But I was surprised at how in-depth the confidentiality agreement went in, asked some questions about their experiences of eating disorders. And this was before HIPAA. So I think they were trying to cover as many legal things that the university will want to since it was asking about medical conditions and such.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But weren't those individuals identified just by initials or number code or something so you wouldn't know who they were?</s>CHRIS: The concern was with that, and we kind of set up a novel way of handing out the measures, was that if a student signed up for it and then maybe they were in a class with me and they saw me, the fact that they knew that I might be measuring these later on, even though it's an anonymous number, might affect their results.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I see. I see. All right.</s>CHRIS: So I basically sat in a room and through like a little - like a window thing, they would just come up and I would give them the measurements. So they didn't really know who I was except somebody behind a, you know, a shaded, painted of glass. And they would drop them off in a drop box in the room, all confidential, but it was interesting. Before HIPAA, there were lots of things about the medical information and how I couldn't just discuss it, you know, in any context except with my research with the PhD student.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right.</s>CHRIS: Great topic today. Thank you very much for having it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Thank you. And, Lisa Banks, are there a lot of cases where if you work for a paint company and you decide to leave, they will be asked to sign a nondisclosure agreement for the secret formula of the company's paint?</s>LISA BANKS: Yeah. I mean, that could happen even while you're an employee. And he raises a good point in the sense that it's akin to a trade secret agreement or a confidentiality agreement that you sign when you're a existing employee to protect sensitive information or trade secrets. So those types of agreements can be part of an employment agreement that you sign when you start a job and follow you throughout your employment.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we've been talking pragmatics, a philosophical question to end with. There was an argument in one of the magazines today. In the case of sexual harassment or discrimination, why should we protect people who are violating other people's rights? Why should we have confidentiality agreements?</s>LISA BANKS: Well, I think that, you know, many would argue that we shouldn't be able to have confidentiality, that people should be able to talk about these issues. But it's a contractual agreement. It's a private agreement, typically, between a company and its employer - I mean, employee. And, you know, if - the idea is that if you want to settle this case and if you want to receive this amount of money, one of the things that you're going to have to agree to is confidentiality because that's something that's going to be very, very important to the company. Other than a release of claims, it's probably the most important provision. And, you know, oftentimes for the victims themselves, it can be very important.</s>LISA BANKS: And, you know, in this case, I think, you know, even though these women could come forward and talk about this case, I think the legal risk is slight. But they may not want to come forward. But we - we're...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We've seen the risk their reputations face in the papers, But...</s>LISA BANKS: Yeah. We've seen what has happened to the woman who did come forward. So there are good reasons not to want to have that all out there.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Lisa Banks, thanks very much.</s>LISA BANKS: You're welcome. Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Lisa Banks, an employment attorney with the firm Kats, Marshall & Banks, with us from her office here in Washington. Guest host John Donvan will be here on Monday to talk about what happens to town when the only business in town ups and leaves. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. |
As the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan wind down, many fear the rates of homeless vets could grow much worse. They tend to remain homeless longer than non-veterans and they're more likely to suffer from health conditions linked to early death, according to a recent survey by the 100,000 Homes Campaign. Renata Cain, veteran, living in a shelter Steve Peck, president and CEO, United States Veterans Initiative Susan Angell, executive director, Veterans Homeless Initiatives, Department of Veterans Affairs | NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Tomorrow is Veterans Day, and it will find tens of thousands of veterans homeless. Many of those people are veterans of the - excuse me. Veterans make up just nine percent of the U.S. population, yet nearly 15 percent of the country's homeless adults are veterans. Many suffer from mental illness or struggle with alcohol or drug abuse. Many more served in Iraq and Afghanistan.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Veterans, if you've been homeless, how did you get there? Our number is 800-989 - email talk@npr.org. You can just call - also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The overwhelming majority of those veterans are men, but there is a rising number of homeless female veterans, Renata Bree Cain(ph) among them. Until four days ago, she was living out of her car. She joins us on the phone from Fayetteville in North Carolina. And nice to have you with us today.</s>RENATA CAIN: Thank you, it's an honor to be with you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: How did you end up homeless?</s>RENATA CAIN: It was kind of a misfortune. I was going to school. I was living off of my GI Bill. My VA rep at my school quit, and they didn't have a replacement or a stand-in, and over the course of about four months, that was the source of my livelihood. I eventually had to move out of my apartment, and that's where it all began.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So moved out of your apartment. I assume you tried to stay with friends or family?</s>RENATA CAIN: Yes, sir, I stayed with one of my - actually both of my sisters. They really didn't have space for me, and they tried to help as much as I could, but, you know, I eventually got into my car just to not put anybody out. You know, I didn't want to be, you know, my sister in California was in a studio, and my sister in Virginia only had a one-bedroom, and they have a child. So it was really tight.</s>RENATA CAIN: And I just wanted to do the right thing, and it's no one's fault. You know, I didn't want to put anybody out. So I just went in my car and tried to, you know, figure out what I could do next.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And how long were you living in your car?</s>RENATA CAIN: I want to say I was in my car for about six months.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: That's tough.</s>RENATA CAIN: Well, I mean, it wasn't during the winter. So it could have been worse. So it's about to start getting cold. So thank God I'm in a shelter now, you know, and it's beautiful here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: A place called Jubilee House?</s>RENATA CAIN: Yes, sir.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Now, that's a transitional home for homeless veterans. Now that's a small percentage nationwide, a much bigger percentage there in the Fayetteville area.</s>RENATA CAIN: Yes, and it's beautiful. It is state of the art. Everything is beautiful.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And where do you see yourself a year from now?</s>RENATA CAIN: A year from now I'm going to have a job. I'm going to be in a house, and I'm going to be happy.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Renata Bree Cain, best wishes, and we hope those wishes come true.</s>RENATA CAIN: Thank you so much. It was great speaking with you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Renata Bree Cain, a veteran who's now at Jubilee House in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Steve Peck joins us now from member station KUHF in Houston. He's president of the United States Veterans Initiative, a group that serves homeless vets. And nice to have you with us today.</s>STEVE PECK: Thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And as we hear with Bree Cain's story, unlike previous generations of vets, many of those veterans don't - that are homeless don't fit the stereotype of people who are sleeping on grates or under an overpass.</s>STEVE PECK: No, they're not. The ones that we have encountered - and we've at this point encountered several hundred over the last couple of years - are similar to her story. They're sleeping in their cars. Some of them are going to community college and sleeping in their cars or sleeping with friends. But the - most of the ones that we're seeing have untreated post-traumatic stress disorder.</s>STEVE PECK: So they - it begins to interfere with their lives, and their families don't know what to do with them. And they don't want to burden people. So they end up in their car or sleeping in someone's garage.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I can understand how that can be a problem. But the majority of people who serve in the military don't see combat. Are the majority of the people you see people who are combat veterans?</s>STEVE PECK: The ones that we're seeing, 100 percent of them are combat vets. So they have PTSD. And that really is what brought them down in the first place. And you add to that the fact that many of them don't have job skills that will allow them to get into this workforce. Maybe they're dislocated, they've discharged from someplace other than home.</s>STEVE PECK: Perhaps they don't, for whatever reason, don't want to go home, they want to be on their own, they want to be independent, and they find themselves in a city without resources, and then if that PTSD kicks in, it can lead to their becoming homeless.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: It can also contribute to substance abuse problems as they try to self-medicate.</s>STEVE PECK: Absolutely. Well over half of the guys that we encounter have substance-abuse problems. And we had a guy come into our program a couple years ago, and that guy named Greg(ph), whose father, a Vietnam vet, brought him in because Greg was having a real challenge reintegrating.</s>STEVE PECK: He had had a pretty significant combat experience in Afghanistan and lost a lot of friends over there, and kind of one incident really stuck with him. He was in a convoy and about to take off. He was in the lead vehicle of a convoy, and a friend of his wanted to trade places with him. So Greg moved about six vehicles back.</s>STEVE PECK: The convoy took off, and about 20 minutes later, an explosion rocked the front of that convoy, and his friend was killed. So he was wracked with guilt and why him and not me. And so that, coupled - that survivor's guilt, which is not uncommon among combat veterans, combined with all the combat that he had seen led him to get hooked on methamphetamines because he didn't want to go to sleep and experience the nightmares that he was experiencing as a result of his combat.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that can spiral downwards pretty quickly. We want to hear from those of you who are veterans who have spent some time homeless. Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. And we'll start with Chuck(ph), Chuck with us from Riverton in Wyoming.</s>CHUCK: Hi there.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hi.</s>CHUCK: How are you?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'm good, thanks.</s>CHUCK: Hey, mine was a - I came back from Vietnam in the late - in '69 I got out of the Marines, and I was - went through the long version. The short version is I went through a long spiral down until - into alcohol and drugs and a couple of broken marriages, and, you know, the whole thing. And finally I ended going to - running from myself. I took off and went to Georgia.</s>CHUCK: And I thought I was going to heal myself. The trouble is, I went along. You know, I took myself with me.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And when you got there, you found yourself, yeah.</s>CHUCK: There I was, yeah. And I went through a period there, the first year I was there, I was arrested five times, trying to get a cop to shoot me, I think. And finally I ended up in prison, and then when I got out of there, I kind of lived in the woods for a while and lived - I had - I'm a carpenter. So I lived on some job sites.</s>CHUCK: And finally what helped me is I got sober. And being incarcerated helped me get sober. And once I got sober, then I started to get my head around it and work my way out, and it took me about five - eight years, and I got, came back home. And, you know, my kids accept me now, and everything's good.</s>CHUCK: And the one thing, you know, the only thing is once I discovered acceptance of myself and what I had seen and that sort of thing, then I was able to face my life, you know, and I'm still kind of - everybody says I'm odd, but, you know, I live out in the country, 25 miles out, and I don't have electricity or running water now. I'm still kind of homeless, but I've got a house, you know.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, there is a distinction, especially as wintertime comes there in Wyoming.</s>CHUCK: Well, I've been out here seven years in the same place. So, you know, it's not like I'm under a bridge. But the thing is, once I accepted what I'd been through and accepted that I had, you know, that I could either face it or not, you know, then I kind of got over it, and I do a lot of AA things and that sort of thing.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You can hear some of the AA there. But Steve Peck, you're a Vietnam vet. I'm sure you've heard Chuck's story you before.</s>STEVE PECK: I am, and a fellow Marine.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And a fellow Marine. So yeah.</s>STEVE PECK: Yeah, that is a very common story. We have just some heartbreaking stories of Vietnam veterans who suffered with their PTSD for 20 or 30 years, and, you know, they never held a job for more than a year. And it just, it is heartbreaking when you think that that is a life that really has been lost because they didn't seek treatment.</s>STEVE PECK: And when we came back in the '60s and '70s, treatment wasn't as readily available. They weren't - you know, they didn't really recognize PTSD, and it was an unpopular war. So a lot of these guys just kind of sucked it up and stumbled along for many, many years. And so we're determined that this won't happen with this new generation of veterans.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Chuck, he talks about lives lost, sounds like yours is a life found, too.</s>CHUCK: Well, my life was found, and I'm working, and I've got my little place and my dogs, and I do oil paintings. I found art is kind of cathartic for me. You know, I do oil paintings, and I discovered the Internet, and, you know, it's kind of...</s>STEVE PECK: Well, you really have something to offer other veterans. We have a young veterans' program, and some of our Vietnam veterans are mentoring them, talking with them about what they've been through. And once you've - now that you've found yourself, you really have something to offer people. So I'm glad you found yourself.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Chuck, congratulations.</s>CHUCK: Thanks.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Steve Peck, a lot of veterans, people who think of themselves as tough and self-reliant, reluctant to ask for help.</s>STEVE PECK: It's true. Of all the young men coming back in this war, and in past wars, as well, fewer than half are seeking treatment. I think it's about 40 percent actually seek treatment. So there's 60 percent of them out there who have undiagnosed PTSD.</s>STEVE PECK: The majority of them are going to be all right, but some of them are going to be disturbed to the point where it's going to have a real negative impact on their lives. So we have a prevention program now, called Outside the Wire, which is reaching out into the community colleges to offer them confidential counseling so that we'll catch them - we want to catch them early. We want to catch them before they become homeless and fall into addiction.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with veterans today. If you've been homeless, how did you get there? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. The VA set a goal of 2015 to end homelessness among vets. Up next, Susan Angell with the Department of Veterans Affairs joins us with an update on that plan. So stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. We're talking about the problem of homelessness among military veterans. A recent survey shows that homeless vets remain homeless longer than their non-veteran counterparts. More and more of them served in Iraq or Afghanistan or both.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Veterans, if you've been homeless, how did you get there? Our phone number, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can join the conversation at our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Our guest is Steve Peck, president and CEO of United States Veterans Initiative, a group that serves homeless vets, and a Vietnam veteran himself, or former Marine.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Also with us here in Studio 3A is Susan Angell, executive director for Veterans Homeless Initiatives at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Thanks very much for coming in.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that promise we mentioned, end homelessness for veterans by 2015, how's it going?</s>SUSAN ANGELL: It's actually going very well. We have started so many new programs this year to not only end homelessness but to stop it from ever happening. We've got some creative programs. Our supportive services for veterans and their families, this is VA's first effort and ability to actually help veterans and their families before they become homeless or if they become homeless to rapidly rehouse them.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: We - it's built on a foundation of case management, and it's a very veteran-centric program. If a veterans needs some assistance with bringing their rent to currency so they can stay in the home they have, we can help them with that. If they've lost that home, we can help them get into a new one.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: If they need child care, assistance with transportation and jobs, we can do all of that through this new program. So we're just very grateful for the resources we've been given to start new programs like that. Another new program we have is called the Homeless Veteran Supported Employment Program.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Unemployment is an issue for many of our homeless veterans. So we have hired nearly 400 formerly homeless veterans to assist currently homeless veterans in getting jobs, keeping jobs. They can do job-coaching, help them with resumes.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: One of the things that we learned from Steve's generation of Vietnam vets, that vet-to-vet connection is so important and has so much credibility with each other. So we know that this program is going to help a lot of our unemployed veterans find jobs and keep them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: As I understand it, the numbers five years ago, 400,000 homeless veterans, more recently 135,000. So there's been some progress.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Well, if I could just put in there the annual report that HUD does. Right now we're at 144,000.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Okay.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: For 2010, and that's an entire year count. And that's down three percent from the year before.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And looking at those numbers, obviously you don't want to perpetuate the stereotype that everybody coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan is somebody who's going to have these kinds of difficulties or somebody who has PTSD. That's not the case. But these men are serious - in serious – can be in serious trouble.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: You know, they can be. And probably to get away from that stereotype, a majority of homeless veterans are not combat veterans. Ninety-two percent are the post-Vietnam era. We are seeing our newest Operation Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom and New Dawn, those numbers are starting to tick up in terms of becoming homeless, but we've got prevention programs at five bases where we have a lot of discharges from the military to really do that prevention and catch them before they fall, with health care services, mental health services and other social support services that they might need.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get Tony on the line, Tony with us from Phoenix.</s>TONY: Yeah, I'm here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Go ahead, you're on the air.</s>TONY: Well, I was homeless for about a year. I was - I did three tours of combat. I was in Panama. I was in the first Gulf War, and I was in the first round of deployments in the latest Iraq war, and came home, was too proud to say that I was hurting, started drinking heavy.</s>TONY: My wife divorced me. I lost the house, lost my car. My mother and my son found me living in a park.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I can't imagine what that was like.</s>TONY: Well, they dragged me to the VA, and it if wasn't for the VA, I would probably not be alive, to be honest with you. I found some good therapists, got into a program, bought my first truck again this past Monday, believe it or not.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Congratulations on that.</s>TONY: So I know what it's like, and I know what it can do to you, and I hope these guys that are coming back aren't feeling so tough that they don't need help, because I can tell you I don't - I don't - I see stories about what they're going through as far as their style of combat, which is a lot worse than what I had to endure, but at the time I thought it was the worst thing I'd ever seen.</s>TONY: But I didn't have to worry about, you know, walking up on a car and having it explode. At least for the most part I could see my enemy.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Tony, thanks very much for the call. Drive carefully, okay?</s>TONY: I will, thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Steve Peck, too proud to ask for help.</s>STEVE PECK: We hear that so often. In the - when you're in the military, you are really taught to soldier on. You just - you know, in the combat situation, you have to follow orders, you have to act cohesively as a unit, and you've just got to tough it out. So to undo that is sometimes challenging. It's very, very difficult to come back to the U.S.</s>STEVE PECK: You've been though combat. You've survived. To suddenly say, gosh, I can't handle what I'm going through - so they – so they, they stay quiet, and sometimes it'll take years to get them in. But these guys who come back and have recovered really have something to offer and are an example for, as you said, for other veterans to come forward and get the help that they need.</s>STEVE PECK: There is no shame in that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Susan Angell, there has been problems reported with men in active duty and men in separation units, on their way out, getting help for mental problems because, well, they don't want to let the unit down, or sometimes they're ridiculed for asking for help. These - some of these have been documented by our own investigative units. Is the military working on those problems, the cultural problems?</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Well, I think they are. I can speak a little bit to the transition part of it. We're working closely with DOD right now on a high-level committee to try to make that transition piece much more useful and relevant to those that are leaving the military right now.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: It can be a bit cursory right now, and we're trying to inject more of a risk assessment into that process. If someone is getting ready to leave, and they don't have a job, or if it's clear that their family is decompensating, or if it's clear they have some other issues, they might have PTSD or depression, those are the folks that we really want to catch, and we're working closely with DOD so that we can catch them before they leave and really offer that safety net of care so that we're there; the day they become a veteran, we're there and ready to help them in any way that we can.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Benjamin, Benjamin calling from Springfield in - excuse me, Springville in Utah.</s>BENJAMIN: Hi Neal. So my situation was - I was, like your guests were saying, I was not a combat veteran. I served in the intelligence community, in the Army. And I just got disillusioned with what the government was capable of and what they did. This was before 9/11. Probably if I was post-9/11, I never would have looked at things in that light, but this was before 9/11.</s>BENJAMIN: So I got extremely disillusioned and depressed and turned to drugs. And in that situation, I didn't feel like there was somebody in the military, if they had offered me help, that I could take it because those were the people that I didn't trust at the time.</s>BENJAMIN: And I was kind of nervous when I was speaking to the screener. I wasn't homeless immediately afterwards. I did have a job when I transitioned out of the military. But that just experience and the downward spiral that I got into, in and out of Walter Reed Medical Center with suicidal thoughts and stuff like that, and that's just affected my entire life.</s>BENJAMIN: And I have come to grips with it over the years, but for me mostly it was joining the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints was where I was able to turn my life around.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, I'm glad you managed to do that, Benjamin, and thanks very much for the call. Good luck to you.</s>BENJAMIN: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Steve Peck, I wanted to ask you, Vietnam, as you mentioned, an unpopular war and one in which a lot of people in uniform concluded that they weren't really fighting for anything and that it wasn't worth much and that the important thing was to get home alive. And there have been some in Iraq and Afghanistan, not as unpopular, not as many people, but who have reached some kinds of similar conclusions. How does that contribute?</s>STEVE PECK: That disillusionment can certainly contribute to them kind of detaching from society, as he said, not wanting to go to the VA for help. You know, that's the government that sent him to a war he doesn't believe in, and how could they possibly help me. So they really do get into this downward spiral, and it can be a subtle, day-to-day process, and by the time they get homeless, there's a whole bunch of things wrong. They're unemployed, maybe they've been unemployed for a considerable period of time, maybe they've fallen to substance abuse and depression, and they've detached themselves from a social network, which is the very network that's going to help them back into the mainstream.</s>STEVE PECK: So those veterans whose families come and find them are very fortunate. And quite often it is a founding member who convinces them that they need to find help. And in our - part of our job is to convince them that that is courageous - asking for help is a courageous thing to do.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Leon, Leon with us from Detroit.</s>LEON: Hi. How are you?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'm good. Thanks.</s>LEON: I'm a vet. I've been going through a veteran's hospital, which (unintelligible) got a dead end. I got the Agent Orange testing - I'm a Vietnam vet, like I said. I'm reaching dead ends, and I'm tired of fighting. And I don't want to spend another winter in my car. I got a house, but I have lost it to back taxes. I got it back and still can't live in it because the raccoons moved in (unintelligible) in between torn apart. I don't have the finances to build it back up, and it seems like it's a dead end, everything I try to do, you know?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Another winter in your car? How long have you been living in your car?</s>LEON: Off and on, five years. I'd get a flop here and there, friends will let me, but you know, you wear that out. Brother-in-law hates me, mother's done all she can do, and I'm up against the wall.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I don't mean to put you on the spot, Susan Angell. Obviously, individual cases. Where is the help for Leon in Detroit?</s>SUSAN ANGELL: So, Leon, what I would really recommend for you is to call this number: 1-877-4AID-VET. 4AID-VET. That's a 24/7 number. There are professionals there that can help make a warm handoff and get you the help that you need at your local medical center, and the services that they have. We have a lot that can help you. And if you can just make that call, I know that they'll reach out to you, Leon.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Could you repeat the number, please?</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Yes. It's...</s>LEON: Yeah. Could you do it numerally(ph) because I don't have, you know...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Numerically, if you would. Yeah.</s>LEON: ... (unintelligible) OK.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: OK.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: It's 1-800 - I can help you with that.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Well, it's 1-877...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: ...the number 4AID-VET, 4AID-VET.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we'll have part our crack staff decode that for you, Leon. And I can't possibly do it because - well, I've got all these other things going. But we're going to have that number for you numerically in just a second, he said, staring at his producer.</s>LEON: All right. I appreciate it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK. So hang on the line, if you will. And there are people - there are places that somebody will pick up that phone and say, Leon, how can I help you.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: There are professionals at the end of that line, 24/7, and they can make contact in any community across the nation and give Leon the kind of help and referral that he can use in his community.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that number is 1-877-424-382 - excuse me...</s>SUSAN ANGELL: 3838.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...3838. There you go. So one again, 877...</s>LEON: 3838?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: 3838?</s>LEON: 3838?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: 3838.</s>LEON: OK.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Leon, good luck to you.</s>LEON: Yes, I appreciate this, OK.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK. Thanks very much. We're talking with homeless vets today. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And let's see if we can go next to - this is Brian, and Brian's with us from Saginaw, Michigan.</s>BRIAN: Hey, Neal. Yeah. I'm a veteran from - it was peacetime Cold War era, '85 to '89. And - but, you know, I was a kid, I got out - I was ready to get out and I, yeah, I had fostered quite an affection for alcohol. And it seems like that's what everybody was supposed to do in the Army, was drink. And so when I got out, I was drinking pretty heavily. And, of course, I went on to many different things, drugs and whatnot. Finally was incarcerated.</s>BRIAN: When I got out of prison, I was homeless and lived on the street for quite some time. And I just reached a point, you know, it was when I was, you know, I pulled myself up off my bootstraps. I figured I really didn't see any help anywhere, so I just did it myself. And I, you know, went to a homeless shelter and got into some 12-step programs. And once I made that decision, and it wasn't really hard, I was tired of living like I was, I was able to become successful, you know, got a job, got a place and all those things. And now, of course, I'm married and have regular employment. So it was a horrible experience, but in a lot of ways it may have saved my life from the drug abuse and whatnot.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, Brian, it serves a point to tell your story. And, Steve Peck, I'd like you to weigh in on it. Yes, these can be terrible experiences, but yes, there is a way out.</s>STEVE PECK: There is a way. And some have had discovered by themselves, and some are led to it through visiting a VA or visiting a community-based nonprofit like US Vets. And it doesn't matter which way you – which door you find as long as you walk in to it. And a lot of community-based organizations like ours are trying to partner with the VA, so there's no wrong door. We're all trying to talk to more and more veterans out there. We're trying to enlist the veterans service organizations to work with us so that everyone has an eye out for someone in trouble and can lend them a helping hand and a referral.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Brian, good luck to you. Thanks for the call. And I wanted to ask Susan Angell, the vet to vet, you know, different age groups or even the same age group, there is so much credibility to saying, nobody understands what I went through except maybe you. Is that something the veterans administration is trying to incorporate?</s>SUSAN ANGELL: Actually, we've incorporated it for over 30 years. We had a program specifically developed for Vietnam veterans and their families called the Vet Center. And a majority of the staff in the Vet Centers were combat veterans, and they were helping each other. We've moved that forward now with the OIF, OEF and OND veterans. We now have the global war on terror veterans that are part of the Vet Center staff.</s>SUSAN ANGELL: So we have done everything we can to find that meeting point where our veterans can help other veterans, because they really do a great job. They're so committed to their brothers and sisters. So we have found that one of the best things that we can do to address our veterans right up front.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Susan Angell, executive director for Veterans Homeless Initiatives at the Department of Veterans Affairs, with us here in Studio 3A. Thanks very much for your time. I'll let you get back to work. Also Steve Peck was with us, president and CEO of United States Veterans Initiative, a group that serves homeless vets. He joined us from member station KUHF in Houston. Thanks to you.</s>STEVE PECK: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'll give that number one more time: 1-877-424-3838. Thanks. And when we come back, we're going to follow a group of the Michigan National Guard from their town in the Upper Peninsula to Afghanistan and back home through a new documentary, "Where the Soldiers Come From." TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. |
Modern brain-imaging techniques have given researchers an unprecedented level of detail about the structure of the brain, but are they any closer to puzzling out how the brain really works? Harvard neuroscientist Jeff Lichtman talks about the limitations of brain imaging, and the challenges of trying to use imaging techniques to decode the brain's behavior. | IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. Your thoughts, your memories, as you know, all come from your brain cells, billions of them packed together in your head. My next guest would like to make a map of how all those cells connect to one another, talk to each other, learn new things, make new memories.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: But it's going to take a lot to untangle those neurons. After all, your brain cells are just nanometers thick in some places. They flicker with electrical activity that's just a few milliseconds long, and there's evidence that their connections may vary dramatically from one person to another.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And our brains are changing, adapting, responding to our environments all the time. So how do you capture that? Well, my next guest thinks that we can capture it, and is an expert in imaging. Dr. Jeff Lichtman is a professor of molecular and cellular biology and a member of the Center for Brain Science at Harvard University. He joins us from Harvard. Welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Hi, Ira, how are you?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You're - fine, thank you very much. You're an expert in imaging techniques, correct?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yeah, we look at the brain in my laboratory. That's what we do, almost exclusively.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And what would be the ideal imaging technique? What are you looking for to be able to examine all of these connections?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: The perfect technique, actually, is a combination of two, at the moment, extreme opposites. One is a technique that gives you enough resolution to see the finest connections between nerve cells, which requires resolution at the level of nanometers, as you've already mentioned. And the other is the scale to trace out wires that can extend for centimeters, or if you're a giraffe, from your spinal cord to your toe, even meters.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And those two kinds of technologies are often very different. And to fuse them into one technique requires going a little bit beyond the comfort zone of modern technology.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: So we're not quite there yet?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Well, we're working on it, but it is awesome, truly disturbing how much data one has to obtain if you wish to map the entire brain at the level of every synapse.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: How much data are we talking about here?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Well, let's take a cubic millimeter of brain, which is about the size of the smallest point you would see in an image taken with this technique called functional magnetic resonance imaging. So those images show you where blood flow in the brain goes up when you think, and they're very highly resolved. A cubic millimeter is the voxal size, the three-dimensional pixel size.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And one voxal of an FMRI image, if we imaged that with an electron microscope to see all the synapses with sufficient resolution, that would be about 1,000 terabytes of data or one petabyte. A terabyte is 1,000 gigabytes. So we're talking about a million gigabytes of data per cubic millimeter, and that's just one cubic millimeter of brain. And if you wanted a whole brain, you'd need thousands of petabytes, essentially more data than is the digital content of the world, if you will.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: So it's more than fits on my laptop, to be sure.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Could you learn anything, though, at a single-cell level that, let's say, that Eric Kandel didn't learn with the single cells in sea slugs if you could go down that - drill down that deep?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: I mean, there's extraordinary advances that have been made, certainly, in understanding the way synapses talk to each other and how they change with experience. But one of the mysteries of the brain is that the network that connects cells is a lot like an Internet network, and that is it's one to many and many to one.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: There are interconnections between nerve cells and thousands of target cells, and thousands of different target cells impinge and talk to each nerve cell. And if one ever wants to understand how a network like that works, you actually have to look at the network, and that requires seeing more than a single cell.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And can we learn anything from, let's say, a network of networks like the Internet, that may apply to how the brain works?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yeah, I mean, one interesting thing to keep in mind is that the network of the Internet is connecting the brains of individuals together. So it is a form of communication between the neurons in one brain with the neurons in other brains. That's really all it is: It's just wires that extent our connectivity.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: So perhaps the same strategies that are wiring us up are used again when brains talk to other brains. Almost - we don't even realize it, but that may be what's going on.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Is it possible in your imaging world, and in the world you would like to create, if you have the right tools, to actually watch a thought originating or something being remembered?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Absolutely, that's the long-term goal of work like this, which is to see first how information about the world gets implanted in the brain. And once it's there, what form does it take that allows it to persist over decades, or if you're very lucky, even over a century?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: There must be some structural substrate, a trace, if you will, of that memory, but we have very little idea now because these tools are just now being developed to actually map out what that would look like.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And so do you think these tools will be available in our lifetime, so to speak?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yeah, I guess it depends how old you are.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: I think these - my laboratory and a number of other labs are working very hard right now to generate tools that have the speed to generate these images quickly enough. I'll just give you an example that when we started about five years ago, we were obtaining information at about 1 million pixels of brain image per second, which sounds like a lot, but that's actually quite slow. To do a cubic millimeter of imaging at that rate takes about 140 years, and to do let's say a rodent brain would take about 7,000 years at that rate.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And over the past five years, we've sped up about 100-fold, and we think in the next two years we'll be at about a billion pixels per second. And then doing a mouse brain within a year might even be contemplatable. To do a human brain, however, is still an extraordinary challenge because humans have much bigger brains than mice. But the techniques would be the same.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And if you - let's stay then at the mouse brain level. Would one mouse brain look the same as another mouse brain?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Almost certainly not. The little part of the mouse nervous system that we looked at to completely wire - get a wiring diagram of, from one animal to the other, even from the left side to the right side of the same animal, where the function should be quite similar - we found every single instantiation of this wiring diagram was unique.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And I think a lot of people take that to mean what's the point of doing this at all, with all this variation. It's worth saying that if you watch two football games, or you watch two chess games, you'll find that every game of a particular sort is different from every other one, but after watching one game of chess, for example, you could infer the rules, so no other game would really be surprising to you.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And I guess that's the same thinking we have here, that there will be certain motifs, certain strategies of connectivity, if you will, of the way nerve cells are connected that from learning from one brain, would allow us to extrapolate in other brains.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let's get some phone calls in, 1-800-989-8255. Jim(ph) in Muskegon, Michigan, hi Jim.</s>JIM: Hello, thanks for taking the call. I was curious whether or not you can map any changes in the brain as a result of PTSD, or does your work lead to any treatment possibilities? I particularly had some clients who relived some events based on triggers, otherwise benign things.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yes, I think this is an extremely important point about our primitive knowledge of the brain. Compared to other organ systems, where most abnormalities have a physical, histological trace that you can see in a microscope, for most brain disorders, we don't have a physical trace. And I think this is largely a sign of how low-level our imaging is, relative to the questions.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: At the moment, we're far away, to be perfectly honest, from getting a physical manifestation of something like post-TSD, but I think at some point, one would hope that mental illness, learning disorders and other kinds of behavior problems will be amenable to these kinds of studies.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And then I would imagine you need to be able to see a large part of the brain to see how that might originate.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yeah, of course, one doesn't even know where the problem is. And this is this problem of size, the big and the small. You have to be able to accommodate a big area but at very high resolution, and that gives rise to datasets that are just at the moment so large that no one would know exactly how to work with them.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Do you need a supercomputer, you know, like the old Cray or any, put a bunch of them together to get a giant computer to do this? What kind of computer power do we need? Give us an idea.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: I think what people - there's one thing is to generate the data, and then you need to store it in a large place. So you need storage capacity that exceeds what most people are used to, you know, many petabytes of storage, tens or hundreds of petabytes. And that is already one far end of computation.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: But that's not sufficient. You then have to analyze this data to turn these pictures into an actual map, and that requires a kind of computational image analysis that is being developed right now but is very computer intensive. And the way this is done is typically with clusters of computers that parse this large problem into many small, little pieces, and so thousands of CPUs or even GPUs working simultaneously are necessary to do this.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: So it is a large amount of computational space, but it's not the classic Cray single supercomputer but many small computers, each working on a teeny-weeny part of a very big problem.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Well, good. Could our home computers become part of a network like that, work together?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Well, this is one of the - yes indeed. I think one of the ideas, just as the Galaxy Zoo has been very potent as a way of analyzing images of deep space, my laboratory and a colleague of mine at MIT, Sebastian Seung, and another colleague of mine, Hanspeter Pfister in the engineering department here and several other groups, as well, are thinking about ways of recruiting interested parties to help us do this tracing and mapping out.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: So not only your computer but your visual system we would take advantage of, as well.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah, because we know that people are much better than computers at visually taking things apart and putting them back together.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yeah, I mean, one of the great ironies of this work is that we are trying to get computers to do something that humans do quite trivially. Any five-year-old can trace these wires. Computers have a hard time doing this. And what we're trying to trace is the wiring diagram that explains basically how humans do this.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: It's a very circular and philosophically interesting problem.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Jeff, can I ask you to stay with us?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Sure.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: We're going to go to a break. We're talking with Jeff Lichtman, professor of molecular and cellular biology and member of the Center for Brain Science at Harvard. We're going to pick his brain a little longer, and stay with us. We'll come back. Our number, 1-800-989-8255. You can tweet us @scifri, and we'll continue right after the break. Stay with us.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY, from NPR.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. We're talking about how your brain is wired and attempts to take a look and make - snap pictures of it, with Dr. Jeff Lichtman, professor of molecular and cellular biology, member of the Center for Brain Science at Harvard University. And if his last name is familiar, that's because he is the father of Flora Lichtman, our multimedia editor. And we thank you for that project too.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: That's the best thing I ever did, or one of the two. I also have another daughter. They're both, the pair, the best things I ever...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Well, we're very happy for you doing that. 1-800-989-8255. Let's go to the phone. Let's go to Steve in Chico, California. Hi, Steve.</s>STEVE: Good morning, gentlemen.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Hi there.</s>STEVE: My question is this: If I think a thought in an image, like if I think of an old dog I had when I was a kid, and that image is in my mind, and we know that it comes from brain cell activity, right, but if a surgeon cut into my brain, he would not find a little picture of my dog. He would simply see the neural activity, right?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: The surgeon wouldn't - yeah, go ahead.</s>STEVE: Right, so do you have any sense where the actual image is, the picture of that dog that's in my mind? Where might that be in the universe?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Well, it's in your mind, that's for sure, and because it's a visual picture, it almost certainly is - at least one rendering of it, and there are probably many different parts of your brain involved, but it'll certainly be in the parts of the brain that are responsible for image processing, that take visual information and process it progressively farther along.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: It has been clear that it's very hard to find a local stroke, for example, that damages a small part of the brain where a person ends up with a perfectly normal brain, except the image of their dog is missing. And that implies, of course, that your dog is distributed over a rather large area, or there are multiple copies of your dog.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: There are places in your brain, and maybe this will come up later in the hour or in the next hour, of - where recognition of faces occur, and if that part of the brain is stroked out, for example, a person can't recognize anyone's face. It's very hard to get very specific memories lost, suggesting this distribution, that it's not localized spatially the way you would if you were an engineer - you might put your little dog in one place and a spoon right next to it and your cat on the other side. It's not so clear how it's organized.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And one of the things you write about and we've talked about is how plastic your brain is, right? It can be remolded, reshaped.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yeah, so I think the - you know, the emphasis, especially as we get older, is on how plastic our brains are. But of course there's the other side of the coin, and I think this is often left unsaid, but I'd like to emphasize this, that the purpose of memory is to give you the opportunity based on often one trial learning, at some point in development, a lasting, indelible impression about the way the world is.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And that is a bit at odds with a constantly changing brain. And I think if my own daughters' comments to me are any reflection, as I've gotten older I get the impression my children think that my brain has hardened, calcified. I'm a little less open to new ideas than I was when I was younger.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And I see this as wisdom, not really a bad thing, you know, that I'm left with a brain that's consistent with the world, but of course the world is changing very rapidly now. So this is a somewhat painful thing for people my age, as new tools get invented.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: But I think memory's main purpose is not to constantly change but to allow a person to hold on to, for example, how to ride a bicycle. If you learn as a child how to ride a bicycle, you can stop riding a bicycle for 20, 30 years. You get on a bicycle as an adult, and after a moment or two of unsteadiness, you're riding pretty well.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: But look at an adult who's never ridden a bicycle as a child, and it's clear there's something about their brain, there's some indelible trace about bicycle riding that's missing. And they have a hard time learning.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: But we also have the case where it's been shown that recall is very unreliable, that - isn't it true that we see that you can make up something in your mind, and your mind, at least the scans will show that it's as if you had actually seen it?</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Yes, I mean one of the amazing things about memory is every time you recall something, it's up for grabs again. And often that is because when you recall it, you want to dress it up with more recent data. So if the recent data tends to overturn something that you remembered earlier, gradually that memory can morph into something that's quite opposite of what the original memory is.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: And thinking about something long enough, you can begin to believe things are true that aren't. My brother and I growing up, I kept telling him over and over again a particular thing, that he was adopted, in fact, and I think as he - there was a point in his life when he was uncertain whether this was a fact or not, even though - just because he began running it through his mind, even though I was just teasing him.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let's see if we can get one more call in here before we have to go. Clay(ph) in Oklahoma City. Hi, Clay.</s>CLAY: Hey, thanks for taking my call.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Hi, go ahead.</s>CLAY: Yeah, I would like to hear your - I forgot the scientist's name, I'm sorry. So our brains accumulate information from the time we're born until the time we die. And I want to know what you think about where is that information being stored. Is it being stored molecularly? Much of the research around brains is focused on the neural network and the depolarization, the signals sent to each nerve.</s>CLAY: But I believe the information must be stored actually inside of the neurons, giving it identity, reason to respond a certain way. So could you please speak about that? Where might the - where might the information we gain as we grow old be stored physically, molecularly?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right, good question.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: I think this is a very good question and one that's somewhat contentious. I think we now understand that synaptic connections between nerve cells molecularly can change in ways that persist for long periods of time. And that has sometimes been mistaken, I think, as thinking that the memory per se is built into those molecules.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: Ultimately the brain is just a behavior machine. Input comes in, it churns around inside, and then there comes an output. And that is through the connections between nerve cells. So for example, if I tip your - tap your patellar tendon, and your knee jerks, that's because of a reflex of nerves that activate cells in your spinal cord that then send information back out to the muscle and cause that kick.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: You could think of all learning, all information, being the same way. If I say what is two plus two, that goes in your ears, it rattles around by activating nerve cells, and out comes first in your head the idea of four, and if you're a child, then a signal would be sent down to your deltoideus muscle in your shoulder, pulling your arm up. So you wave it back and forth so the teacher can see you, so you can then say it's four.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: That is not coded molecularly. It's coded in a wiring diagram that connects the idea that comes in, the idea that's in there, to an output.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Thank you very much, Dr. Lichtman, for taking time to be with us today, very fascinating.</s>JEFF LICHTMAN: My pleasure.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Jeff Lichtman is professor of molecular and cellular biology and a member of the Center for Brain Science at Harvard University. |
Like chimpanzees, dolphins are large-brained and highly social animals, but can they recognize themselves in a mirror? Psychologist and dolphin researcher Diana Reiss discusses her work with dolphin communication and cognition. | IRA FLATOW, host: Moving from our brains, talking cerebrally now about the brains of dolphins. Humans and dolphins are separated by 95 million years of evolution, and in that time these mammals' hands and feet turned into fins. They developed more sophisticated features.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Did you know they have sonar, like bats? They can play complex games of Capture the Flag. We call it a piece of seaweed. And if you ever watch "Flipper," you know that they can make a wide array of clicks and whistles. But can that be language?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: My next guest has been looking at these big-brained mammals much like others have looked at chimps and gorillas and studying them, figuring out what they can do. And she's written a new book. Diana Reiss is author of the new book "The Dolphin in the Mirror," and she's professor in the psychology department of Hunter College. She's also the biopsychology and behavioral neuroscience program at the graduate center at City University in New York. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>DIANA REISS: Hi, Ira, I'm thrilled to be here.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Tell us: How smart are these dolphins? What have they shown you over the years?</s>DIANA REISS: Well, they're really smart, and of course the challenge is always to try to understand intelligence of another species, particularly when they're so different, like a dolphin is. What is the nature of their intelligence? That's what I'm trying to find out.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And "The Dolphin in the Mirror," you named it that because of your research with them?</s>DIANA REISS: Correct. We - several years ago, my colleague and I put a mirror in front of a dolphin and wanted to know what would they do with it. What would they - would they know it's themselves? And again, this is a really - this is a rare cognitive ability in other animals. And they actually showed that, like us, they can recognize themselves in mirrors.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And you did research at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. Is that where you studied your dolphins?</s>DIANA REISS: No, actually, my first lab was in California at a place called Marine World, when I...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Ah, Marine World.</s>DIANA REISS: Marine World, and what else? And then I was research director, director of marine mammal research at the New York Aquarium, the Osborn Labs for Marine Studies. And now I'm doing - I'm directing a program of dolphin research at the National Aquarium.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You know, we always say that people are different than other animals because they're self-aware, right?</s>DIANA REISS: Right.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Are dolphins self-aware?</s>DIANA REISS: Well, you know, it's interesting because when you think about self-awareness, most animals would have to have some form of awareness or they'd be bumping into each other and the walls and their environment. So we're talking about a particular kind of self-awareness, the sense of you can recognize that you are in that mirror, that that's an external representation of yourself. That's pretty sophisticated when you think about it. And most animals don't do it.</s>DIANA REISS: Most animals if they do pay attention to a mirror, which many don't, like dogs and cats generally don't, if they do, they think it's another of their own kind, and they'll show social behavior. With the dolphins, not only are they aware that it's themselves, and they show it to us behaviorally.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: How? What do they do that they know that...</s>DIANA REISS: Yeah. So there are three stages. Should I break it down more simply?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah.</s>DIANA REISS: The three stages are if they've never seen a mirror before, they try to look around it, look over it, figure out what this thing is, who's behind it, then they - if they've never seen a mirror, they start showing social behavior. So for dolphins, they might echolocate or whistle at it or squawk at it. I'm going to hold myself back from doing imitations, but they...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Feel free.</s>DIANA REISS: Oh, I will...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: It's radio.</s>DIANA REISS: ...soon, soon.</s>DIANA REISS: But they'll do - and they'll show typical social behaviors. And for scientists who study them, we have to know what those social behaviors look like. So the second stage is what we call contingency testing. Now, for any of you out there listening to the station who know the old - the Harpo Marx, Lucille Ball or Groucho skit in front of the mirror. This is what...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: The mirror image of each other.</s>DIANA REISS: This is what you see. I mean, it's pretty much highly repetitive behaviors, really unusual behaviors in front of a mirror. Now, it may look odd and funny to us, but in reality, this is where the light bulb goes on. This is where the animal figures out that something that it's doing, that the behaviors it's doing are related to the behaviors they're seeing in the mirror. And they start realizing there's this one-to-one correspondence. And that's a really important stage.</s>DIANA REISS: So you - when you see this stage, you generally will see animals go on to use the mirror to look at themselves, and that's that third stage we call self-directed behavior. And this is so interesting because not only have my colleagues and I studied dolphins and shown dolphins can show mirror self-recognition, but we've done this with elephants. We did this with elephants at the Bronx Zoo.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: OK.</s>DIANA REISS: Frans de Waal, who I know has been here, and his graduate student Josh Plotnik and I collaborated, so we showed this in Asian elephants as well. What's amazing is that the elephants, dolphins, chimps and humans show the same kinds of behaviors often at the mirror.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Wow.</s>DIANA REISS: Wow. Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: 1-800-989-8255 is our number. I'm Ira Flatow, and this is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. They don't start straightening their hair out, do they?</s>DIANA REISS: No. But I'll tell you something...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: What do they do? Go ahead.</s>DIANA REISS: Oh, we're on?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah, yeah.</s>DIANA REISS: Sorry. So what they do is they'll look inside their mouths, and they'll open their mouths really wide. Dolphins will often wiggle their tongues. And it's clear they're opening and holding and looking inside their mouths. They all put their eyes up against the mirror and look at their eyes very closely. So they may look at one eye and then turn and look at the other eye. They look at their genitals often. We didn't see this in elephants, but we certainly see this in humans, chimps and dolphins.</s>DIANA REISS: And again, they watch themselves doing different things in front of the mirror. When we look at children and they're playing in front of the mirror, you watch yourself doing that fancy new dance step, dolphins do all sorts of things like blowing varieties of bubbles, doing different kinds of play at the mirror.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Wow. Talking with Diana Reiss, author of the new book "The Dolphin in the Mirror." You know, people are always saying, well, these are not really intelligent animals like we are. They're just trained to do things. You don't agree with that.</s>DIANA REISS: Not at all. In fact, you know, you can train pigeons to do all sorts of complex things. Rats can be trained to do all sorts of complex things, and even insects and goldfish. It's not - it's what they do in their own behavior. These are highly complex mammals with complex social lives, complex cognitive lives. And we have - we know enough now to know that they are highly intelligent. And it's not just what you're seeing in the training. That's the minimal stuff.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Why do they need such big brains like that?</s>DIANA REISS: That's a really interesting question. And one of the ideas is that their brains are getting bigger and - as they're dealing with more complexity. I mean, imagine being a mammal out in the ocean without a cell phone, for example. They have these highly complex social networks. They have to remember who's there, who they interacted with, who they collaborated with in the past. And also, you know, they coordinate, collaborate with each other, and they have to - again, they have to have memory for what worked, who they interacted with. And then, there are challenges in the environment, you know? And they have to survive.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: They come from the same family as whales, right?</s>DIANA REISS: Right.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Why aren't whales as smart?</s>DIANA REISS: Well, we don't know that whales aren't as smart. We just haven't had the opportunity to study them. In general, we have had dolphins in aquaria for many, many years, and that's afforded us the opportunity to understand the minds of these amazing animals. With whales, there really haven't been many cognitive studies done - with killer whales, with orcas. I don't know why that is. But most other whales, you - it's very hard to do cognitive work in the wild.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: 1-800-989-8255. You know, you see them in the wild acting as teams.</s>DIANA REISS: Right.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: It's really amazing.</s>DIANA REISS: It is. And it's, you know, this idea of cooperation care-giving, you see that - you see it in whales. You see it in dolphins. And it makes you think, you know, do they really know what they're doing when they save a human? It's a whole other area.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Do they actually save humans? Yeah?</s>DIANA REISS: Oh, there has been - I talk about this in the book. I talk about the myths of dolphins saving humans, and then there are historical accounts, records, historical records of dolphins saving humans and statues being built, you know, in honoring dolphins. And the question is, well, did they know what they were doing? Are these just myths? Are they stories? But we know now. We have new accounts, contemporary accounts of dolphins doing the same.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You were into Greek mythology as a kid.</s>DIANA REISS: Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Is that what got you thinking about dolphins?</s>DIANA REISS: Not at all.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: No?</s>DIANA REISS: No. That would be very...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: There was a movie about dolphin - a Greek - I can't remember what it is at the moment but...</s>DIANA REISS: Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: ...a boy and his dolphin or something.</s>DIANA REISS: Right. No. I was always interested in Greek mythology, but I was never interested in dolphins. I really didn't - I wasn't a "Flipper" fan. I liked "Lassie" better than I liked "Flipper." It wasn't until I got older. My background was actually in theater. So I was a stage designer. And I always had a science background and an interest in science, and I left the theater to go into science to study animal communication. And it was one day when I was reading a story in The New York Times about whaling that I - it struck me: we hardly know anything about these magnificent animals. We need to learn more, so.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right. We're going to learn a little bit more. 1-800-989-8255 is our number. Talking with Diana Reiss. She's the author of the new book "The Dolphin in the Mirror." She runs a dolphin research program at the National Aquarium. And we'll take your calls. 1-800-989-8255. You can tweet us, @scifri, @-S-C-I-F-R-I. We'll be right back after this break.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow, talking with Dr. Diana Reiss, author of the new book "The Dolphin in the Mirror." She's professor in the psychology department at Hunter College here in New York. Let's see if we can get a phone call in before we have to go. Sam in Des Moines. Hi, Sam.</s>SAM: Hey, Ira. Thanks for taking my call. Your prefaced this show by asking whether or not dolphins have language, and I'm actually an English professor. And one of the essays that I begin my composition semester with is by Susanne Langer, a philosopher who says that what makes us human, separates us from all other animals, is the fact that we have symbolic language, whereas all other animals understand signs. They have signific language. They can react to signs, but we're the only animal that has a concept - that conceives, that it has a concept of the past and the future, because we have language. We have symbolic thought.</s>SAM: And I was just wondering if, Dr. Reiss, if that's something that your research is looking at in terms of whether it's chimps or dolphins or other language - or other animals, that they have a sense of history, a sense of symbolism.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right. Thanks for the call.</s>DIANA REISS: They have memory in the sense of, you know, they have memory. I don't know - we don't know very much about the sense of history other than that. But in terms of symbolic behavior, it's something I'm very involved in, and I've been very interested in decoding dolphins' own forms of communication. We haven't found the Rosetta Stone to crack that code yet, although they do use complex sounds and behaviors in communication. Years ago, I did a study giving dolphins an underwater keyboard to ask the question, how would they use this - a symbolic board?</s>DIANA REISS: They had visual forms on the keyboard. If they hit a key, they would hear a particular whistle that was different from their own and get an object. So it was a simple touch key, hear whistle, get object. What we found was the dolphins showed us that they - on their own, they learned associations between the symbols, the sounds, the objects. It may have been symbolic, and they started using it amongst themselves. But we couldn't confirm that. So we don't really know, and that's exactly what I'm looking at now. We're doing a more a high-tech keyboard - touchscreen. We're trying to get funding for that right now.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right. Fascinating book, it's called "The Dolphin in the Mirror" by Dr. Diana Reiss, professor in psychology at the department of Hunter College. Thank you for taking time to be with us today.</s>DIANA REISS: Thank you so much for having me. Thanks.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Good luck to you. |
Italian banks are heavily invested in Greek debt, and its economy teeters on the edge. Unlike Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has dismissed reports that he will resign. Columnist Beppe Severgnini talks about Italy's role in the Eurozone crisis. | NEAL CONAN, host: Over the weekend, Greece fended off the immediate crisis with the formation of a coalition government that supports the recent agreement on European debt. And now, many eyes turn west, to Italy, which has a much bigger economy and, some say, a bigger problem. Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi continues to survive no-confidence vote, but his government clings to power and faces a series of hard choices. If you have questions about Italy's role in the Eurozone crisis, give us a call. Our email address is talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. Go to npr.org, and click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The next no-confidence vote scheduled in Italy comes as soon as tomorrow. Beppe Severgnini joins us now from the studios of the BBC here in Washington. He's a columnist for the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera. His book is "Mama Mia! Berlusconi's Italy Explained for Posterity and Friends Abroad." And nice to have you with us today.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Well, thank you. I think "Mama Mia!" is a good summary of the situation, isn't it?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, Prime Minister Berlusconi has seemingly defied political gravity before. Can he continue to hold on?</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Well, he's a bit of an escape artist, I have to say. But there is - so there comes a time when, you know, the dramatic moment when the escape artist is, you know, you realize that you will not wriggle free of his chains and he's at the bottom of the pool. And we don't want to be there with you. And so with - let me get out of this metaphor. And I think...</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: ...if he wants to help Italy, he really has to go. I mean, the Financial Times put it bluntly the other day, quoting Cromwell, you know, in the name of God, of Europe, of Italy, go. It's a bit dramatic, a bit Italian, I may say, but operatic also. But the message is correct. I think he really has to go soon.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Soon. If not tomorrow, then soon. Nevertheless, some say that the fall of the government, no matter who heads it, is going to lead to a long period of uncertainty, and that's not going to help Italy's financial situation any.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: I disagree for two reasons. The main one is political and social and psychological. I know my country well and my countrymen well. I think Berlusconi has been - that's what my book is about. He's been - he build on complicity with us, but complicity became embarrassment. Embarrassment became shame. Shame is becoming anger. So that's over. And I think the Italians know very well that we cannot afford the pension system we have. We cannot afford all the privileges of, you know, we have 75,000 official cars, just to quote, you know, come up with something to give you an idea.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: So there is so much you can cut, but politics has to start first. And I think Italians are prepared. They know we have to do something. Berlusconi is in no position to ask us for sacrifice. I mean, he cannot do it. He's not credible, to quote Lagarde here in - Christine Lagarde of the IMF here in Washington. She put it right. You know, he's not credible. There is a problem of credibility. So, that's it. I mean, but someone else can.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: If Mario Monti, the former European commissioner, or someone else will come with a broad government, I think they can afford to be unpopular for a few months or even for a year or a year or a year and a half, saying, look, folks, that's what we have to do. They can ask us. Berlusconi cannot.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet when it seemed that the German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy were snickering at Mr. Berlusconi, much of Italy rose up in his defense.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Much of Italy. The people who write to my blog, they, you know, those people who's - most people, including me, I think, probably thought that they were sort of laughing, which is not nice. Maybe they should have avoided that but they were kind of smiling and putting a face about Berlusconi. So they - it was between them and Berlusconi, not between them and the Italian nation, in a way. And there are sort of people that decided. Berlusconi is very - is a Populist 2.0. He's really good on building on things like that, to create this sort of fake patriotism around him. But I think we're now smart enough to know the way - the sort of game he likes play. I don't think many people really are angry with Merkel or Sarkozy for that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Our guest is Beppe Severgnini of the Corriere della Sera. We're talking about Silvio Berlusconi, the prime minister of Italy, and Italy's role in the eurozone crisis. If you have questions, give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. And going from the political situation to the financial situation, many analysts say Italy's economy is, well, it's got some trouble of its own. But the real problem is the amount of Greek debt that's held by Italian banks.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Well, I think that's a problem for French banks and German banks too. What I do know is that it is true that we have a big debt that we cannot afford. We're talking about two trillion euros. But it is true that the collective wealth of the Italian families, 8.6 trillion. Berlusconi always quotes these, but he doesn't really makes sense because, I mean, you imply that the wealth should go from the families to this - to buying public debt, and that won't happen. But there is one crucial element and I sort of worked on this to absolutely certain, that the Italian public debt is structured in a way that its treasury has been pretty smart, that it's spread over a long time. So we don't have like a deadline every few months like the Greeks. So we can - we had a few - if we sort of put our house in order, we have, let's say, a few months to sort it out. It's not desperate.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet some elements within the ruling coalition, and that includes the Northern League, are saying much of these sacrifices are unwarranted.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: No, the Northern League is a populist party, and I think they're going to play probably, you know, their last card and saying the euro was a bad idea, something that Mr. Berlusconi also said, unwisely, when he came back from Brussels a few days ago. But I think, no. I think the politics switch side. We have a thousand MPs. OK, cut them in half. We have provinces in Italy between town halls and regions, abolish them. We have representative abroad, the, you know, the Italian tourist board. You know, all their money goes into salaries. Cut that.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: I mean, they should, from the top, show - OK, we'll start sacrifices. And I - believe me, I said that before. The Italian public is now ready to make sacrifices across the board. There is no one who - anybody - there is no one who can think, you know, we can do without and someone else will do it. It's late for that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet some have described avoiding taxes as Italy's national sport. Is that likely to end?</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Not really. But I think if we bring the percentage of people who do not pay tax properly from - I don't know, it's, you know, off the top of my head like 40 percent, or the gray economy, which has been estimated sort of between 17 and 20 percent, we have those figures, I think we're on the right track. But again, the - have you ever heard Mr. Berlusconi saying do pay your taxes? You know, he said, and I quote him in my book, then he denied it but it's there, he said that, when - it's on YouTube and Google, it's easy to check. He said if the taxes are over, above a certain set of measure, I am morally entitled not to pay them. I mean, if you have a prime minister who say things like that, you know, how you do you expect people to behave?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about the role of Italy in the eurozone crisis, and we'd like your questions. 800-989-8255. We'll start with Dan, Dan with us from Iowa City.</s>DAN: I - you mentioned earlier that one of the problems with Italy's economic problems are that you can't afford your pension. That seems to be the first thing out of people's mouths, is that we can't afford our old people, and I say that we can. With all the excesses of the economic policies, we can afford to have our old people. They are not the liability that everybody talks about, and I'll listen to you on the radio.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK. Beppe Servergnini, how are pensions going to be cut if they're going to be cut?</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: First of all, in Italy we - Italy is the - is a country with the - the oldest country in Europe, together with Spain. So it's very old, the percentage of over 65 is huge, I mean, compare to other countries, including the United States, of course, number one. Second, a real problem is that we have one young man or woman out of three out of a job. So there must be a sort of new social pact. We cannot afford to pay that kind of pension or to have the health system that we have in Italy, which is pretty good, I have to say, with the current situation.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: I mean, you really have to cut waste and pay more taxes. Otherwise, there is no way we can - we cannot afford to live the way we live. I mean, now we have people - you have people retiring in their 50s. We cannot afford that anymore because they going to live, thanks God, much longer. And the state cannot, you know, keep up with that and pay them pension for 30 or 40 years. So 67 is a decent age to retire, and I think we're going to get that pretty, you'll see. But again, Mr. Berlusconi is in opposition to us. His successor probably will.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Beppe Servergnini, a columnist for the newspaper Corriere della Sera. 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. Stay with us. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And let's go next to Anna, Anna with us from Houston.</s>ANNA: Hi. My question was, what does the author think would have happened if they hadn't use the euro (unintelligible) European Union – do you think that could have saved the debt crisis?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Should we go back to the lira or should we had never had left the lira?</s>ANNA: Yes.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Well, I think it's too late for that, first of all. Italians know that there is no way back. If - Italy simply cannot default, cannot leave the euro, it's going to be a disaster. And the ripple effect of this disaster, you'll feel them, you know, even in Houston, believe me, in a matter of hours. So it cannot happen. There's no way. And I think in Italy the euro have many good effect. For instance, the inflation is very low, and Italian - Italy is still the second powerhouse, industrial powerhouse in Germany after - sorry, in Europe after Germany. So it's not that we cannot compete because we had the euro instead of the lira.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: I mean, someone will play that kind of game, probably the Northern League. But I think Italians are now old enough, smart enough, you know? We don't want to be - we believed Berlusconi when he said many things. I think it's far too late now.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: How would the effect be felt in Houston in a matter of hours?</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: You're talking to me?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yes.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Well, I think it's pretty easy because the world economy is all linked and it's pretty obvious that what happen in America with your subprime crisis, immediately we felt the effect all over Europe, first in Britain and then elsewhere, and then this happened. Can you imagine Italy defaulting, the euro collapsing and bank closing and all that? Do you think America, with your current financial situation, public debt, an election coming up, you'll be out of all that? Not at all.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And the new European fund designed to back up default might be enough to prop up Portugal, Ireland, maybe Greece, but not Italy.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: But not Italy. Absolutely. That's why the IMF stepped in. Of course, it was Sarkozy and Merkel and the European Union wants the IMF to step in. I think they can do a good job in it, to be honest, provided they know exactly and they tell publicly what they want to do once they're there, because Mr. Berlusconi, who's very good at minimizing, he's already said, well, you know, just - they'll come here to monitor the situation, and if we don't like what they're doing, you know, we'll send them back. That's not the way it works.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: It's very unusual for a big industrial country such as Italy, part of the G8 and the G-20, probably the seventh largest economy in the world, to have that kind of attention and monitoring by the IMF. It's really, really - I think it's the first time.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Richard, Richard with us from Vermillion in South Dakota.</s>RICHARD: Hi. Good afternoon. Buon giorno to your guest. My question's sort of preempted by the answer that was just given, but I was confused as to how the current situation – of course Greece, now we're hearing about Italy, all these wildfires financially, how did they relate to our 2007 events here, 2008, or did they? Are we still seeing dominoes falling? And I'll take my answer off the air. Thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right. Thank you, Richard.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: I think they are related because I'm not a financial expert. I'm more political commentator. But my feeling is that, for instance, banks tried to, you know, they took losses and then they tried to do something else, like buying high interest bonds where they could find them, and they - that's why in the beginning, at least, like Greek bonds were so attractive and then they realized that probably was not a good idea. That's one of the reasons.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: And I think is the economy - or the world is slowed down, and that's another thing. We don't talk about growth enough anymore. And Italy is - basically there was no growth in Italy for the last 12 years, 10 years, and my prime minister, Mr. Berlusconi, has been in power for eight of those 10 years - actually, seven of those 10 years. Only one country grew less than Italy in the year 2000, and that's Zimbabwe. I mean, can you imagine that? And of course, Italy was - is an example of - the most extraordinary example of no growth or slow growth, but you have other countries.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: So 2007, 2008, when all the money goes into sort of bailing out banks and all that, I mean, it cost, you know, what happened, it cost everybody a lot of money, and you can see the result. Now the country slowed down, and I think only a few countries around the world, like China and Brazil, are going well, and we share some of the same problem. We are - America, I know you always consider yourself part of the new world. In many ways, you still are because you all have this great attitude towards the future, which I envy. But in many ways, in terms of financial and economic and social structure and production, you're part of the old world together with us. I mean, because the way in France, Italy, Germany or Spain or United States are not that different, you know? We have great unions. We have rules. We have regulation. We have certain way of doing things. So we'll - I'm afraid we share or we're going to share all this. No doubt.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Beppe Severgnini is a columnist for the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera. His latest book, "Mamma Mia! Berlusconi's Italy Explained for Posterity and Friends Abroad." With us today from the studios at the BBC here in Washington. Thanks very much.</s>BEPPE SEVERGNINI: Thank you. Bye-bye.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow, photographer Annie Leibovitz joins us. We hope you join us for that. This is TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. |
Pope Benedict XVI told U.N. delegates that strengthening human rights is the key to solving the world's problems Friday. | ALEX CHADWICK, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand, coming up the debate over the debate, outrage over ABC's moderators at this week's Democratic debate and the defense from ABC's Jake Tapper.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: First story, Pope Benedict XVI spoke at the United Nations this morning. His theme was human rights and how one country's actions can affect the world community.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: He said war and environmental degradation compromise human dignity and diminish the common good. Here he is speaking through a translator.</s>POPE BENEDICT: (Through Translator) Each state has the overarching duty to protect its population against serious and repeated violations of human rights as well as the consequences of humanitarian crises due to natural causes or resulting from man's activities.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Among those human rights, the Pope said, are peace and religious freedom. |
For the first time in history two black candidates, President Barack Obama and Herman Cain, may run against each other for the presidency. As it did three years ago, discussions of race and racism continue to play out around both campaigns. Andra Gillespie, professor of political science, Emory University Rep. Allen West, Republican from Florida | NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. With the 2012 election now a year away, it's actually possible that both major parties will nominate African-Americans. Three years ago, Barack Obama changed the conversation about race and politics; now, Herman Cain changes it again.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Many liberals question Cain's knowledge, intelligence and qualifications. Cornel West even said Cain should get off the symbolic crack pipe. Some conservatives say liberals are threatened by an uppity black who dares to leave the liberal plantation. Cain himself says his fellow African-Americans have been brainwashed by the Democratic Party.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We'd like to hear from you. How does the rise of Herman Cain change the question of politics and race? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Later in the program, Ray Takeyh on The Opinion Page this week. He wrote an op-ed titled "How Iran Lost Iraq." We'll also talk about the looming U.N. report on Iran's nuclear capabilities. But first, race and politics. In a few minutes, Republican Congressman Allen West will join us.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But we begin with Andra Gillespie, professor of political science at Emory University, the author of the book "Whose Black Politics?: Cases in Post-Racial Black Leadership." And she joins us from studios at MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Good to have you with us today.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And as we learned today of a fourth woman who accuses Herman Cain of inappropriate behavior, I guess we have to add the explosive word sex to those of race and politics.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Yes, we do.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that changes things, doesn't it?</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Well, it will be really interesting to hear what this woman has to say. It's somewhat unfortunate that we're on now, as she is making her comments. If she appears to be credible, then that could do a lot of damage to Herman Cain. Already, his favorability ratings have taken a hit in the last week, and I'm sure that there will be more polls that are forthcoming. So we just have to wait to see what the long-term impact of this particular allegation will be.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I think most pundits had already predicted that Herman Cain wasn't going to be the Republican nominee, but we just didn't know how it was going to end. This may be the end story, but then again, nobody expected Cain to get this far. So we have to wait and see.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Exactly. Some had written him off as a marginal candidate from the very beginning. None of them expected to be leading Mitt Romney in many polls at this stage in the race. But again, we shall have to see about the impact of this. But Herman Cain's campaign has been calling this a smear, an attempt by the liberal media to, well, put him back in his place.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Well, there are a couple of things to kind of talk to with respect to that particular side of the story. This is clearly an attack. Whether or not the liberal media is responsible for it, or whether or not this is coming from a Republican who supports one of the other presidential candidates remains to be seen.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: It's been really interesting how Cain has pivoted in terms of who's to blame for the story in terms of trying to elicit sympathy. But until we know the source of the story, it's really hard for us to judge.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I think the fact that Cain has actually blamed both the liberal media and the Perry campaign for this story sort of is evidence of how he's mishandled this whole episode, by not getting ahead of the story, though Politico gave him ample opportunity to do so. And it shows I guess how nimble his campaign actually was not in this particular instance, that you now blame two very disparate people for, you know, being the source of this particular allegation.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go beyond this particular allegation, if you will, and get to the broader criticism that Cain raises about the conventions of an African-American, or as he calls himself, an American black conservative, this is a challenge to the conventional - well, I think the latest poll I saw was something like 95 percent of African-Americans say they support Barack Obama.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: So and that's pretty consistent with a percentage of black voters who voted for President Obama in 2008. You know, I wish it were as easy as Mr. Cain suggests, but in all honesty, the story is much more complex and nuanced. Blacks have rational reasons for supporting the Democratic Party.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: The Democratic Party is not a panacea for all racial ills, and their record in terms of promoting blacks internally within their party structure leaves a lot to be desired. But on the whole, since Barry Goldwater's campaign in 1964, blacks have perceived the Democratic Party to be the stronger party on issues related to civil rights.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: And as long as those issues are salient to African-Americans, and as long as the Democratic Party is the clear party with strengths in that particular area, it's going to be very difficult for any Republican candidate, regardless of his or her race, to be able to make inroads in the African-American community.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: It's interesting, and I think it's a sign of progress that somebody like Herman Cain can rise through the ranks of the Republican Party and even in this primary season, but it's going to take more than just descriptive representation within the Republican Party to win African-Americans over.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Some have treated Herman Cain first as a marginal candidate and then with some contempt. And I'm just quoting here from - this is a piece in Politico. This is the magazine that originally reported the allegations about sexual harassment, but this is their chief political columnist Roger Simon.</s>He quotes Herman Cain: Some Cain supporters, the - I'm ready for the gotcha question, and they're already starting to come, Cain told a reporter. When they ask me who is the president of Ubeki-beki-beki-bekistan, I'm going to say, you know, I don't know. Do you know? Some Cain supporters say this is part of his down-to-Earth charm, but ignorance on the part of a president can be dangerous. It is definitely dangerous. Cain did not know until he was corrected recently that China possesses a nuclear arsenal.</s>He quotes Herman Cain: Now, is this in the realm of legitimate criticism? Does this wander across the line?</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I think that it's legitimate criticism, and I think it's important to note that these types of criticism are not racially motivated. In a normal election year, where we didn't have an economy so bad and where the Republican field is weak according to what voters think, Herman Cain would be a footnote. He wouldn't have gained much traction.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: But given the level of dissatisfaction with the direction of the economy, given the disappointment in the Obama administration in terms of how they have handled the economy and given the fact that the presumed frontrunner in the Republican field is not the overwhelming favorite son of Republicans and coupled with the fact that you have a Tea Party revolt, where you have this war between people who want to get back to conservative first principles versus the establishment, that opened up a lot of opportunities for Herman Cain to gain the traction that he has.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Ultimately at the end of the day, it's those weaknesses, the lack of familiarity with foreign policy, the lack of familiarity with domestic policy beyond his 9-9-9 plan on issues of taxation are probably what would be his undoing and what would actually be his Achilles' heel not just in the primary but also in a general election.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with Andra Gillespie, professor of political science at Emory University. We want to hear your thoughts, too. How has the rise of Herman Cain changed the discussion about race and politics? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. David's(ph) on the line, David with us from Keane in New Hampshire.</s>DAVID: Hi.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hi, David.</s>DAVID: I want to say I think it's great that Herman Cain is running, and how has it changed? Well, it affirms that African-Americans are on the right-hand side of things, and - though I don't think he has a snowball's chance, but - and also the fact that he's dark. And I think that's important, too, to an extent. I mean, it says something, but, you know...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: It says something, am I hearing you right, about the Republican Party?</s>DAVID: It says something about the Republican Party, but it says that there are African-Americans in the Republican Party. And it affirms the African-Americans of the Republican Party and says it's OK for you, an African-American, to be a Republican. You don't just have to be a Democrat.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that's an argument that certainly Herman Cain has been making, Andra Gillespie.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Certainly, and, you know, we need to acknowledge that blacks have been Republicans for generations, more than a century now. Initially, most African-Americans, after the Civil War, were Republicans because Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, and of course he freed the slaves.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: African-Americans in general operate with a concept that political psychologists call linked fate. It was a term that was coined by Michael Dawson in 1994. So what that means is that when assessing policy preferences and even assessing partisan preferences and voting behavior, African-Americans think about overall racial group interests as a proxy for their individual interests.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: So it's important to not look at blacks just as individuals, but it's important to look at how African-Americans operate socially in the United States as a group. And while blacks have made tremendous progress, particularly in the last 50 years, there's still many areas where blacks fall behind other groups.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: And so because of that, blacks still perceive their interests as being tied to that of the group, and so they look at group interests as a proxy for their individual interests. And since as a group the Democratic Party's platform tends to favor policies that blacks would support or that they would perceive would benefit blacks as a group, that's why they tend to support the Republican Party.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I don't want to discount Cain's presence in the Republican Party or to discount the fact that there have always been black Republicans. But black Republicans tend to favor individual preferences over group preferences, and that tends to explain their voting behavior. So while it's great that Herman Cain as an individual has been able to rise through the ranks of this primary season, that still doesn't negate the fact that blacks perceive the Republican Party as a whole as being weaker in terms of addressing issues of concern to African-Americans as a group.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: And until there's change on that regard or until the racial climate changes in the United States, we're probably going to see the same type of pattern that we've witnessed for the last 45 years.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, one of those black Republicans joins us now, Republican Congressman Allen West of Florida, an African-American conservative elected to office in 2010 with support of the Tea Party. And he joins us by phone from Florida. Congressman, thanks very much for joining us today.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: (Technical difficulties), it's a pleasure to be with you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And few can have more insight into what Herman Cain is experiencing both in the general campaign and in the past couple of weeks. Do you think that he's being treated differently than a white candidate would be?</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Well, I just think that when you rise into the political strata, you're going to get attacked no matter what. I will tell you that when you do come in as a black conservative, you do cause some concerns from the liberal side of the house. I had some pretty vicious attacks against me down here, accusing me of being the only black member of a white supremacist motorcycle gang, a drug dealer and then dealing with prostitution.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: But I counted it as a victory because when no one could talk about the issues, they resort to those silly sideshow antics.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'm sure you're not saying necessarily that the charges against Herman Cain are silly.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Well, I just say this: Let's focus on the issues. I think that's the most important thing. And I did not say that the allegations of sexual harassment are silly. I think that any time you have to deal with sexual harassment, that's a very serious charge. But once again, they're alleged. The people have not come forth. So I'm not here to debate what happened with Herman Cain 20 years ago.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Stay with us if you will, Congressman Allen West of Florida, also Andra Gillespie. We'd like your thoughts, as well. How does the rise of Herman Cain change the discussion about race and politics? Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. A few minutes ago, a fourth woman, the first to go public, accused Herman Cain of inappropriate sexual advances. Sharon Bialek said at a news conference in New York that she approached Cain in 1997 hoping for a job. He offered to help her, he said. At one point, he groped her.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The Cain campaign responded with a statement saying all allegations are completely false, that Herman Cain never harassed anyone. We'll continue to follow that story and bring you any updates as they come in.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All of this playing out amidst an intense political campaign for president and dueling charges of racism both from the left and the right. We're talking today about race and politics, and we'd like to hear from you. How does the rise of Herman Cain change the question of politics and race? 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can join the conversation on our website, as well. Go to npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Our guests are Congressman Allen West, a Republican from Florida's 22nd District, and Andra Gillespie, professor of political science at Emory University in Georgia. She wrote the book "Whose Black Politics?: Cases in Post-Racial Black Leadership." And Congressman West, I wanted to follow up: We've heard some dismissals of Herman Cain's knowledge about both international and national affairs and his inexperience in running for political office.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Of course, many say that's refreshing. Again, do you find that he is being dismissed unfairly?</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Well, I think that when you are asked questions, if you are running for president of the free world here in the United States of America, you're supposed to have some working knowledge of foreign affairs and policy, national security, as well.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Of course I, you know, 22 years in the military, I've been - had the benefit of, you know, doing strategic security studies as part of my military education, as well as being deployed. So I think I'm very comfortable with answering those type of questions. But I think that it's fair that people should expect that if you are running for president, you should have some sort of working knowledge on the prevalent issues, especially (technical difficulties) what is happening in various parts of our world, be it the Middle East or China or Pakistan.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Just as, of course, it's fair to criticize the president's policies. At this point, I don't think that draws too many charges of racism.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Say again?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Just as it is of course fair to question the president's policies. At this point, I don't think that draws too many charges of racism.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Well, no, it's not about racism. It's about (technical difficulties). I think that that's what we have to move on and understand is that, you know, this is about decision-making. It's about policy. It's about, you know, what happens, you know, 10, 20, 30 years down the road based upon some of the domestic or national security decisions and policies that are being made, tax policies, regulatory policies.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: So to have those points of inquiry has nothing to do to reflect back on the person's skin color. It has everything to reflect back on his decision-making and leadership.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get another caller on the line. Sherman's(ph) with us from Lafayette, Louisiana.</s>SHERMAN: Good morning.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hello.</s>SHERMAN: Hi.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Go ahead, you're on the air.</s>SHERMAN: Yes, I was calling, I find it quite refreshing to see two black men or the possibility of two black men face off in a national election of this capacity. And as a business owner, I also think that it's very refreshing and promising to see a businessman step up to the arena.</s>SHERMAN: As far as the racism aspect of it, no, I think everyone needs to be held accountable for their actions and activities. The scrutiny that he's under, it's probably the first time that he's had to undergo anything like this because he's never been in the political arena before.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: He did run for Senate in Georgia but nothing quite like this. You're absolutely right about that. And Andra Gillespie, you can't ignore the historic aspect of this, that it's a long way from here to there, but the idea that there are two serious African-American candidates for the presidency.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Oh, this is a milestone in American history, and I would be loath to deny that case. So, you know, this is a great thing. You know, we have to actually see it happen, but, you know, it's great when people can run under both party banners, and we should be applauding that.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I think probably what causes a lot of consternation on the left is that they probably would prefer that the leading Republican nominee for the presidency on the Republican side who happened to be black had more of the credentials of Congressman West in terms of his military experience and in terms of having served in prior elective office. So that's what makes Herman Cain's candidacy more of a long shot.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: And to kind of get at the whole business experience, you know, part of the reason why these allegations have such traction is not just how the Cain campaign mishandled the PR aspect of it early in the week, but this also really undermines this notion of Herman Cain as business leader who can apply that business savvy and that management experience to the White House.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: People are looking for somebody who conducts his business with integrity and in an ethical manner, and this really kind of undercuts that. In addition, you have to keep in mind that slightly over half of the electorate is female, and this is the type of allegation that could really undermine support amongst a crucial voting bloc.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Sherman, thanks very much for the call.</s>SHERMAN: Thank you for listening.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Ted(ph) in Groton in New York: I see no racial aspect to Cain's candidacy but rather a rags-to-riches American story of perseverance. His main rival in that scope is Rick Perry, who is touting his dirt-farmer roots as a way of gaining some level of credibility.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Perry might actually win that contest over Cain's growing up as the son of a chauffeur, and Allen West, both - it's hard to overstress the importance of a candidate's narrative today, the story of the background they bring to the race.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Well, I think it's absolutely right. I think that the American people are really looking for individuals that they can connect to, and I think that it's important that in a presidential election cycle, image is preeminent, almost, before you get to articulating your message, and when you have those people that are reflective of an American dream.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: You know, I was born and raised right there in the inner city of Atlanta, Georgia, and I know that Herman Cain went to Archer High School, and his wife went to Price High School. I went to Grady High School. And, you know, to have that type of aspect - my father and mother grew up in south Alabama, south Georgia. And my dad was a corporal in World War II.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: And I was the first one that he wanted to see to go on to be an officer in the Army, and now we have the next generation of young officers, my nephew, his grandson, Herman West III. So I think those are the type of stories that inspire Americans and help us to understand the exceptionalism of this country.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: But I also want to say that I think it's important that we look in the black community. We need to be players in the entire political spectrum because I don't think that anybody out there in your listening audience, Neal, invests all their money in one mutual fund or one stock account. So I think the important story that we have here is the preeminence and prominence of African-American voices not just in the Democrat Party, where it pretty much always has been, but now even more so in the Republican Party and as conservatives.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get another caller in. This is Abel(ph), Abel with us from Clemson in South Carolina.</s>ABEL: Thanks for taking my call.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Sure.</s>ABEL: I think that this whole Herman Cain candidacy is more Memorex than what's going to be reality. I think that he's polling well, but no one's voted yet, and I think that race tends to trump politics, even in the South. I know that Mr. West won in Florida, but Florida is different from much - most parts of the South.</s>ABEL: And I think that once people get in the voting booth, and even though they might like the 9-9-9, but as people begin to look at Cain and look at the fact that he is African-American and they don't know all of his positions, I think that eventually his candidacy will fall apart.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Andra Gillespie, Abel raises a couple of points, one that this may be ephemeral, and if you look at the polling numbers recently, there are - not just for Herman Cain but I think for a lot of Republican candidates at this point, their support is what they say is soft, a small, relatively small percentage says they were absolutely prepared to vote for him.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But there's also the sort of lingering question that sometimes people tell pollsters one thing but do another thing in the booth.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Certainly, so there are a couple of issues that relate to that. One, it's always important to keep in mind that polls reflect attitudes for a given moment in time, and we can't extrapolate to the future based on them. So we know based on polls that took place, you know, from Tuesday to Thursday last week what people thought, and they could change their minds. And that change is legitimate, and that's not immediately going to register.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: But the other question is whether or not there's a Bradley effect. So this was studied a lot during the 2008 campaign cycle, and the conclusion...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And refers to Los Angeles Mayor Tom Bradley.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: When he ran for governor of California, and it turns out he didn't poll at the same rate that he registered, that voters actually sort of registered their support for him and the polls. So the actual outcome of the election was different than what the pollsters had predicted he would get. And the same thing happened for Doug Wilder when he won the governorship in Virginia in 1989, as well.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: So most people assumed that when you're looking at black candidates that whatever they poll is going to be different than what the actual outcome of the election is going to be. That wasn't true in 2008. We could even look at a racially polarized election in Tennessee in 2006, where Harold Ford ran against Bob Corker. And the actual outcome of the election was within the margin of errors of the last polls that were done the weekend before the election.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: So there is little evidence to suggest that people are misrepresenting their vote intentions to pollsters before they get to the polls. Given the fact that we're, you know, a little less than two months away from the Iowa caucus, there's a lot that could change between now and then. And so the soft support or even the strong support that we see for Herman Cain or any of the Republican candidates at this point could change as new developments arise and as voters factor in new information.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: So if it turns out that the sexual harassment allegations continue to have legs, that might undermine Herman Cain's support. And we'll look at that as the explanation for why his support deteriorated and not because people censored themselves so that they didn't appear to be racist in front of pollsters.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Richard. Richard with us from Jacksonville.</s>RICHARD: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. And just to be brief, you were saying how has this changed the conversation. First, it's changed the conversation - the mere fact that we're having a conversation is what has changed. But also that it forces Americans to look beyond just black and white and start seeing race as not just a disqualifier but also something that brings maybe a different flavor to the table. But most importantly, it forces us to reflect on the fact that America's demographics is changing, and African-Americans have grown in strength that the media is not reporting over the last 10 years. In fact, the reporters say that African-American income, 75,000 and above, has increased by 65 percent over the last 10 years. And that's what we're beginning to see now as African-Americans are beginning to flex their, not only political muscle, but their economic muscle, especially in this down economy.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Congressman West?</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Yeah. I mean, I'd have to agree with what was just said because getting to what statement Dr. Gillespie made, what really are the interests of the black community now? Once upon a time, you know, someone could have said that it was more so about focus on the inner city, social welfare policies, civil rights, things of that. But, you know, even still, you have to understand that, you know, Senator Everett Dirksen did kind of help the civil rights legislation get the push - get pushed through.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: But now I think that when you talk about, you know, those policies, you know, and reflect them to the African-American community, well, I mean, there are economic policies that affect the community. And we want to see small businesses grow. And what are the right type of tax and regulatory policies that will enable small businesses, not just to grow on Main Street, quote, unquote, "white America," but get back into the inner city.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: When you understand, you know, recently, when we had unemployment in the black community at an all-time high, it was like 16.7 percent, between 20 to 25 percent for black adult males and close to 45, 46 percent for black teenagers, then people are starting to really ask the questions based upon objective assessment and the right type of policies that are going to enable us to have that growing black middle-income class and, you know, lower to upper income class. And I think that that is what you're seeing a change, and that's why you're starting to see the black community play all across the political spectrum.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Richard, thanks very much for the call. We're talking with Congressman Allen West of Florida. Also with us, Andra Gillespie, professor of political science at Emory University in Georgia. Her book, "Whose Black Politics?: Cases in Post-Racial Black Leadership." You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And here's an email question from Margaret(ph) in Miami. Don't forget that blacks are very critical of Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell. They, of course, had important positions in the Bush Cabinet. Colin Powell, secretary of state, later, Condoleezza Rice as well. She was national security adviser. Blacks were not initially for Obama, continues Margaret. He was, quote, unquote, "too white for most blacks." But when whites made him the winner in the early primaries, blacks then got onboard. Cain may be guilty of sexual harassment. That's no laughing matter. Black or white, that's a problem. Margaret's earlier analysis, Andra Gillespie, is she accurate?</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: Well, I kind of want to combine her question with the comment that was previously made. There's definitely public opinion evidence to suggest that views within the African-American community on social policy have moderated in the past 20 years, as blacks have become more affluent. But African-Americans as a group still remain largely vulnerable, not just in terms of income where they still lag whites in income or they still lag whites in college graduation rates, and where they severely lag whites in terms of wealth and where that wealth gap has widened as a result of the previous recession.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: So the question kind of becomes - and the whole reason political psychologists study linked fate in general was to explain why affluent blacks weren't as Republican as their class status would have suggested that they would be. So as long as blacks still profess a belief that their fate is linked to the fates of other blacks, we're still going to see blacks supporting policies that are more liberal than their self-interest would predict. And they're going to support the Democratic Party at higher numbers than, perhaps, their perceived class status would predict according to conventional wisdom.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I also think that it's really important to (unintelligible) and to keep in mind that the types of questions that Congressman West is bringing up are questions that are absolutely being asked in African-American communities, and those debates are vigorous. But you're more likely to see that level of contestation not across the parties but within the party. And so, in particular, when I edited "Whose Black Politics," and I and a number of people contributed chapters to that volume, we were very interested in what happens when you have black Democrats running against each other, particularly younger black Democrats who levy the charges that Congressman West just laid out against older, more entrenched black incumbents. And so that's the guiding purpose behind much of the academic research that I conduct.</s>ANDRA GILLESPIE: I would argue that you're more likely to see that type of debate within the Democratic Party than you are going to see it between black Democrats and black Republicans, even though I think the issues that Congressman West is bringing up are very important.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Mariella(ph) in Savannah. I'm a Latina now living in Georgia where, in November 2010, people were still shocked that a Jewish candidate named Sam Olens, a Republican, broke through one of the oldest barriers in Georgia politics. The man who will be our next attorney general is the first Jewish candidate to win a statewide race in Georgia, and he did it as a member of a party whose Christian conservative base has not always been tolerant of religious nonconformity. Back to Herman Cain. The effect of his and other nonwhite people running will be real and ongoing in this nation. Fluid in motion, the more colors that we see in the political field, the better for us all, I think.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, Allen West, we'll leave you the last 30 seconds to comment on that.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Well, I think that's absolutely right. And I don't know if you will see monolithic voting patterns. You know, I'll be very honest. What you in 2008 was President Obama, 95 - I guess, almost 97 percent of the black community voting that way. I think that, now, people are going to start evaluating based upon policies. And I think that is truly the graduate level that I'd like to see is where we're doing that type of objective assessment.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Look, I won in a congressional district out here that is 92 to 93 percent white Americans. And so, you know, we are able to, you know, bring our message into any community, and I think that that is what I hope that this country will start moving forward, to judge a person based upon their character, not their color, and also their ability to articulate the issues and the message.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Congressman West, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.</s>REPRESENTATIVE ALLEN WEST: Thank you so much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Allen West, Republican of Florida. Andra Wilson joined us from Emory University. Her book, "Whose Black Politics?: Cases in Post-Racial Black Leadership." She joined us from MIT, and we thank her.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The Opinion Page up next. Iran on the Opinion Page. This is NPR News. |
Reporting in Nature Biotechnology, researchers write of genetically engineering mosquitoes to pass lethal genes to their offspring, in hopes of crashing populations of one dengue-transmitting species. Science writer Bijal Trivedi talks about recent tests of the bugs, and the concerns of critics. | IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. Mosquitoes infect up to 100 million people with Dengue fever every year, according to CDC estimates. There's no vaccine. There is no cure. Other than keeping the person hydrated, there's little the doctors can do.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: So to control Dengue fever today, we eliminate standing water where mosquitoes lay their eggs. We use insecticides and for all our efforts, cause - cases of Dengue are still on the rise. But there may be a better solution, which my next guest writes about in Scientific American this month, a way to get at the problem using the mosquitoes themselves, by engineering them to pass on lethal genes to their children, killing off new generations of the bloodsuckers one batch of eggs at a time.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: One company has already conducted tests of these mosquitoes in the wild, reducing the number of mosquitoes, they say. How safe is this technique? Might there be some unintended consequences to releasing these genetically engineered bugs? And is this tactic effective enough to warrant the risk?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Bijal Trivedi is a freelance science writer and author of that feature on engineering mosquitoes in the current issue of Scientific American. You can find a link to her article on our website, at sciencefriday.com. Bijal joins us from NPR in Washington. Welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Bijal.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Oh hi, Ira, thank you.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Good to have you back, no longer just an intern.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Nope.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Tell us about the - this is an interesting study. They genetically modify the mosquitoes.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: That's right. The paper that actually just came out in Nature by Technology is the first one that the - the company is publishing about open field trials. And with their mosquitoes, the progeny die. So it's basically a death gene that they're passing down, and they - the mosquitoes lay the eggs, and - but, you know, there are no offspring.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: They sent me down to Mexico to observe field trials of a - field cage trials of another type of anti-Dengue mosquito, and with those mosquitoes, they are engineered to just kill off the female offspring. So the idea is that you send out genetically modified males, they mate with the wild females, and when the offspring are born, the females don't make it. So it crashes the population very quickly.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: So they have two different techniques then?</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: There are two different techniques. They - the British biotech company Oxitec did their trials in the Cayman Islands, and the field trials that I observed, which were all within cages, very large cages in the middle of a farming community on the edge of Tapichulo, which is right near the Guatemalan border, those were in cage trials, and that was sort of the female-specific kill switch.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Does one kind, one technique have an advantage over the other?</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: In terms of the genetic capabilities of the mosquitoes, I don't think they know yet. But in terms of practicality, the females kill switch might better because with Aedes aegypti, which are the mosquitoes, the species that primarily spread Dengue virus, you can literally dry these eggs, the mosquito eggs, and with the ones that were done in the Grand Caymans, you know, you have to pick out the sterile males and only release them.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: With the ones with the female kill switch, you can release - you know, you can release these mosquitoes. They'll mate with the wild females. They'll lay their eggs. And the males will survive, and the females will just die in the water. They don't develop their wings, and they can't fly, and they just squat on the water, and they die.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: So from a practical, you know, point, you don't have to just release males. You can let everybody out there, and, you know, only the males will survive.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Because it's the females that do the biting.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Yeah, they do the biting, they spread disease. They're the ones that you really don't want.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: So the other ones, if males survive, we don't care because they're not...</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Because they don't bother us.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: I guess when speaking about males, that's a good thing sometimes.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Those genetically sterile males don't bother us, let's put it that way.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let's not go there.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let's talk about the trials, the field trials. There are no international laws that prevent them from trying these field trials out there?</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: No, I mean, and this is the really tricky thing here. The trials that were done in the Cayman Islands, on Grand Cayman Island by the British biotech firm Oxitec, they released these mosquitoes. Now, they said they did some community engagement, and I'll tell you what that means. That means they sent out a pamphlet that they were releasing sterile mosquitoes, and they had basically a five-minute spot on the daily nightly news that they were doing these experiments.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: And then they started releasing them in this plot at, you know, sort of an isolated end of the island, and no, there is no body that sort of polices these trials. And, you know, when you're dealing with genetically engineered organisms, I mean, this is a very, very touchy issue.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: And for the trials in Mexico, you know, they haven't done an open release yet. Everything is still in these gigantic, huge cages with a lot of biosecurity measures on the cages. And you know, Mexico has signed the Cartagena Protocol, which, you know, governs how you move genetically modified organisms around.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: And so they're doing everything very by-the-book there, and it was only sort of after the trials were being done and were in progress on Grand Cayman that the scientists really sort of came out and said, hey, we've been doing this, and these are the results, that they took a lot of people, including a lot of people in the field, by surprise.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Well, what could be unintended consequences, the side effects of this?</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: They claim that the technology is very safe. And you know, the fact that, you know, these mosquitoes do not do well after - basically, I mean, they are engineered to die, which is, you know, if there's a problem, that's a good thing. You know, they'll die off pretty quickly.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Some people have said, you know, you could be hurting some organism that depends on mosquitoes for food, and you could be affecting food webs. But the - what the proponents of the technology argue is that, you know, this Aedes aegypti mosquito, you know, it is native only to parts of West Africa, and it sort of hitched a ride on slave ships and on trade vessels about 400 years ago and spread everywhere.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: So it's really an invasive species. So what the, you know, what the scientists argue is, you know, nobody's going to miss this mosquito if we drop the levels a bit. I mean, it's very, very hard to eradicate something. So what we're talking about is suppressing the population such that, you know, you don't transmit the disease. It's - I mean, we all know it's really hard to get rid of mosquitoes.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Well, how effective are these engineered mosquitoes at crashing that population?</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Well, you know, not the recent paper, but, you know, at a meeting a year ago, Oxitec announced - and this hasn't to my knowledge been published yet - that, you know, they had released not just a few mosquitoes but three million mosquitoes in this area of the island over a period of six months, and they had managed to crash the mosquito population by 80 percent.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: And this is what they announced at the - it was the American Society for Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, the annual meeting about a year ago. And so that's pretty dramatic. You know, crashing a population by 80 percent. But like I said, you know, they haven't published that release yet, that research yet.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let me to go to Jackie(ph) in Arlington. Hi, welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>JACKIE: Hi, thanks. You kind of almost touched on what I was going to bring up, which is, you know, if you kill mosquitoes, are you eradicating an ecological niche? I mean, I'm a molecular biologist. I'm not afraid of transgenic organisms, but it does sound like this - and I've read just in the past few weeks about several others that are really targeting mosquitoes for eradication. I'm not sure that that's really smart.</s>JACKIE: But you did kind of just touch on that you're not going to eradicate all of them, I guess.</s>JACKIE: What about in areas where that's an indigenous species, though? I mean, maybe that's helpful in areas where it's invasive, but what about the areas that are maybe the worst affected?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Good question, thank you, Jackie.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Well, these - the places that they're talking about are places where, you know, insecticides have failed, public health measures have failed, and you had this rising and falling of the population of mosquitoes. So like I said, they're not talking - it's not eradication. It's something that could be done at peak mosquito season to really stem the population at a low level so that you wouldn't get disease transmission.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And when you say peak mosquito season, we're not talking about a mosquito here and there, right? It's really flying all over the...</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: No, we - we are - I mean, when I was down in Tapichula, I visited the community where these trial cages are installed. And they did a very broad - because, you know, GM has such a stigma attached to it that they wanted to go very by-the-book. They wanted to be very open with the community, get feedback from the community in terms of what they thought of having genetically modified organisms near them.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: And I sat with a family in their - well, the houses are all open. So you can't prevent mosquitoes from coming in and out. I sat at the kitchen table with a family, and there wasn't a moment when I wasn't swatting myself. And I'm sure I looked ridiculous. But it was low mosquito season, and I was slapping myself probably every 10 seconds. I mean, it was swarming.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And so the family welcomed this.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: The family welcomed this. I mean, they had - I mean, they couldn't tell you - I mean, you know, you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who could understand the genetics, you know, very well at the molecular level amongst the general community. But, you know, they understood, you know, the type of technology that was being brought in, and they welcomed it because the insecticides that they use to curb outbreaks, they're horrible.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: I mean, they were fogging one part of the town with the insecticide while I was visiting, and they actually refused to take me there because it's associated with breathing difficulties. So they didn't want me anywhere near the area where they were fogging.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: And then this family, two of the children had had hemorrhagic Dengue. You know, and with hemorrhagic Dengue, more people get Dengue hemorrhagic fever than all the other hemorrhagic viruses combined. You know, we're talking Ebola and Marburg. More people get this than all of those.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: So they'd had experience with the hemorrhagic form...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And they'd rather do this than try that again.</s>BIJAL TRIVEDI: Yes.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right, Bijal, thank you very much. We've run out of time. Bijal Trivedi is a writer and author of the feature on mosquitoes in the current issue of Scientific American. After the break, we're dialing the clock back 100 years, back to those first explorations of Antarctica. That would be going on about right now, 100 years ago. We'll talk about it. Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break. |
NPR's Neal Conan reads from listener comments on previous show topics, including ways to reduce student loan debt, finding the humor in life as a stay-at-home dad, and what schools teach students about sex. | NEAL CONAN, host: It's Tuesday and time to read from your comments. When we talked about decisions affected by student loan debt, many of you shared your thoughts on how to get out from under. Savanna McCauley(ph) in Jacksonville told us she owe just $2,000 when she got her English degree because she attended a public university and worked 35 hours a week. I was able to obtain a wonderful job, she wrote, which I love, but is certainly not in my field of study, before I even graduated school. I think you can go to a university, major in liberal arts and graduate with little debt so long as you give up your ideas of going to Ivy League or private schools and realize you may need to take a job in a field different than what you imagine.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Michael Hamanan(ph) emailed: When I was an undergrad, almost every institution mentioned most people will spend more than the usual four years in school. Graduating people in four years or less seems like a great way to save money and alleviate debt.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Wendy Brown(ph) heard our conversation with New Yorker cartoonist and stay-at-home dad, Pat Byrnes, and wrote: I can sympathize with your dilemma of helping your daughters through their periods. I'm a single mom with a son, so it fell on my shoulders to teach my son how to shave and how to pee standing up. By the way, he's only left the toilet seat up once in his life. Finally, a clarification from our conversation on how schools teach sex ed, Nora Gelperin, one of our guests, complained that some programs perpetuate misinformation that gay or bisexual people have higher rates of HIV.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: After that show, our other guest, Dr. Diane Foley, challenged that assertion. Nora Gelperin told us that she had tried to draw a distinction between sexual behavior. CDC data tell us that men who have sex with men are, in fact, more likely to contract HIV and sexual orientation which does not necessarily equate with riskier sexual behavior.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If you have a correction, comment or questions for us, the best way to reach us is by email. The address is talk@npr.org. Please let us know where you're writing from and give us some help on how to pronounce your name. If you're on Twitter, you can follow us there, @totn, or follow me @nealconan, all one word. |
All U.S. troops are set to withdraw from Iraq by the end of this 2011, and many believe Iran will move to assert more influence over Baghdad. But Ray Takeyh, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, argues that Iran has already lost Iraq. | NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And now, the Opinion Page, and we've invited Ray Takeyh today because of an opinion piece he wrote for The Washington Post that challenges the conventional wisdom on Iran's future role in Iraq. Many argue that the departure of U.S. troops - planned to pull out by the end of this year - will allow Tehran to put Baghdad into a close orbit. Unlikely, Ray Takeyh argues - Iran's policy in Iraq is in shambles. If you've been in Iraq, call and tell us what you've seen about the extent of Iranian influence there. 800-989-8255. Email us: talk@npr.org. You can join the conversation on our website and find a link to his op-ed. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. And we'll get to that in a couple of minutes.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But this week, we await publication of an IAEA report we're told will conclude that Iran has mastered all of the technologies required to build a nuclear weapon small enough to put in one of its ballistic missiles. Ray Takeyh is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He joins us here in Studio 3A, and nice to have you back on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And if this IAEA report says what we're told it will say, what are the options now?</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, the IAEA report, as you suggested, will chronicle Iran's weaponization activities, the research into proscribed technologies and so forth. I think this report is being seen in Washington and perhaps other capitals as a means of getting additional sanctions placed upon Iran, perhaps through the United Nations, but certainly outside the United Nations. The idea being that this will essentially give further impetus to the efforts to further stress Iran's economy through international prohibitions. I'm not quite sure if that will do that because nations such as Russia and China who have all been dubious of sanctions are already aware of the content of this report. So it's unlikely that it will generate the kind of economic sanctions activity that it is hoped it would.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: That would be meaningful, in other words.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, that's right. But it still may trigger other countries such as European countries, Japanese and South Koreans and others to further impose restrictions on the trade.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And yet, we've also heard talk from Israel that the time is shortening, that Israel may decide to strike Iran's nuclear facilities.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, we've been hearing this from Israel at least since 2005. So in that sense, it's not particularly new, and I don't think it's particularly credible in terms of actual Israeli preemption. What Israelis are trying to do by such saber-rattling is to put the Iran nuclear transgressions back on the front pages of newspapers where it has been obscured because of the developments in Arab Spring, Egyptian-Israeli relationship, the developments in Syria, Tunisia, Libya. There's been a lot of other news out there that has obscured the Iranian nuclear activity. So by having this kind of a campaign in conjunction with the IAEA report, Iran once again assumes a prominent place in the attention span of international policymakers.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: One other factor brought in, some have said in the past that even if Iran does acquire nuclear weapons, Iran is not an irrational actor, that its leadership would be sober and judicious in the use of nuclear weapons as every other state that them has been in the past. Yet, then we see the allegations by the attorney general, the head of the FBI and the president of the United States saying that Iran was planning to blow up the Saudi ambassador to the United States in a Washington, D.C., restaurant and kill 50, 100 people.</s>RAY TAKEYH: In a Washington, D.C., restaurant about half a mile outside the White House. That's actually kind of sobering news because it calls into question some of the more sanguine anticipation of what Iran will do should it have nuclear weapons. Nobody is suggesting that they're going to use those weapons to bomb Israel or what have you. But whether Iran is going to be more truculent, more aggressive and more risk-prone if it perceives such nuclear immunities. If it's willing to engage in this sort of a conduct - if allegations are true, if it's willing to engage in such conduct today, then how would it behave if it has the perceptional strategic deterrence that only a nuclear umbrella provides?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ray Takeyh is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Thank you for that. There's going to be more later this week as we find out what that report on the IAEA actually says. We're expecting it out as soon as Wednesday. And - but I wanted to get back to the thrust of your op-ed that was published in The Washington Post. And we want to hear from those of you who served in Iraq about what you saw about the extent of Iran's influence in that country. And there have been many influential voices, as you noted in your op-ed, who say the departure of U.S. forces is a gift to Iran, which will pull Baghdad more and more into its orbit, and you say not so fast.</s>RAY TAKEYH: No, I don't think Iraqis that have labor under Saddam's regime and then under international occupation, which has become somewhat unpopular in Iraq, as you saw over the tense negotiation over the status of forces agreement - this is a country that's kind of nationalistic in terms of its perception, it's trying to put behind its sectarian wars and cleavages and essentially constitute some sort of a national institution and national order. So I don't think Iraqis are looking to be subsidiaries of Iran, agents of Iran, or being dominated by the Iranian government next door, irrespective of their sectarian identity.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet we have consistently heard allegations that important forces in Iranian - Iraqi politics, the Muqtada al-Sadr, that force, the Mahdi Army, and now his political party, are very closely aligned with Iran.</s>RAY TAKEYH: I think a lot of actors in Iraq, whether it's Prime Minister Maliki or members of the Iraqi Shia community, have relationships and conversations and discussions with Iran. There's commerce taking place between these two countries, which is growing to some extent. I'm not quite sure if that necessarily mean a subsidiary relationship is being created. And moreover, Muqtada al-Sadr is a particularly problematic agent of Iranian dominance, if in fact he is one, because he's Arab nationalist, has in the past indulged in anti-Persian rhetoric. He certainly is erratic in his behavior, so I'm not quite sure if he's going to be the vehicle for Iranian advancement within Iraqi politics.</s>RAY TAKEYH: In the long run, Iran and Iraq may become competitors in some form. As greater degree of Iraqi oil production comes online, suddenly you begin to see Iraq today produces 3 million barrels of oil. If that increases over time, you begin to see Iraq's production, which has great degree of international investments in it, actually damage Iran's own economy because of Iran's oil productions are declining given the dilapidated infrastructure that it has.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Some also say different regions of the country are of more interest to Iran than others, particularly the southern area around the port city of Basra. This is a very heavily Shia area, area where people note the Iranian flag, an enormous Iranian flag, flies over its consulate there.</s>RAY TAKEYH: It's suggested often that Iran prefers to have a federal and decentralized Iraq, one where you have strong provinces and a weak central government because it's easier to project influence in that type of a country, because provinces more susceptible to Iranian trade and blandishment and infiltration and so forth. As I said, I think Iran and Iraq can have decent relationship, diplomatic relationship, commerce, trade. I'm not quite sure if that necessarily means an alliance or the Iranian domination of Iraqi politics.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There are also any number of militia groups that looked to Iran to arm them during the, basically, the civil war. And many fear that the civil war could erupt again after the departure of the referee, the United States.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, that's one aspect of Iranian behavior that has been both advantageous to Iran and problematic for Iran, because it is true that Iran does have relationship with militias and some of the splinter groups from the Mahdi Army, large portions of the Mahdi Army have been incorporated in the Iraqi military. But nevertheless, Iran does have that particular approach. Now those particular militia groups that it has relationships with are fairly lethal, fairly aggressive, and their conduct has actually antagonized the Maliki government because the Maliki government, as any central government would, would like to extend its authority, and it views such transgressions as militating against that. So having that relationship gives Iran an inroad in Iraqi politics. But that comes with its own burdens and baggages.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Like?</s>RAY TAKEYH: Like alienating the central government of Iraq; like alienating the Shia population given the violence that these militias are perpetrating; like in further antagonizing the United States because some of those violence has been targeted against American personnel and so forth.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet if Sunni violence steps up, that equation could change.</s>RAY TAKEYH: If Iraq is to degenerate into another civil war, then you begin to see all regional actors are going to be further intervening in Iraq. That's Iran, that's Saudi Arabia, that's Turkey, that's everybody else. I'm not quite sure if the departure of the American forces is likely to trigger return to 2006 and 2007, the pre-surge period, because I think most Iraqis are prepared to put the burdens of the war behind them and move to more of a national institutions.</s>RAY TAKEYH: And the argument seems somewhat dubious to me, that somehow the presence of anywhere between five to 25,000 American troops would prevent the disintegration of Iraqi political order. I can't believe the Iraqi political order is so tenuous and so weak that actually presence of small number of American forces will prevent from its disintegration. So I think it's likely every time Iraqis come to the precipice of actually returning to 2006 and 2007, the dark days of the civil war, they tend to pull back from it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet the perceptions of Iraqi weakness, this is a country that will have virtually no army capable of fighting the Iranians. It has very little in the way of artillery and armor. Its air force is nascent at best if American forces leave by the end of the year. And it would be, even if not invaded by Iran, intimidated by its much better-armed neighbor.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Yeah, I don't think Iraq is looking, at this point, given the capabilities that you spoke off, to once again reimpose itself as the regional bulwark against Persian predominance and Persian expansion. They don't see themselves in the same role that Saddam did. Iraq today does have a foreign policy orientation that differs from Iraq of the 1990s and 1980s. In the 1990s and 1980s, under Saddam, Iraq sought to dominate the Arab world, partly by having an anti-Persian policy. Today is an Iraq that wants to have good relationship with all its Arab neighbors, if possible, but certainly non-Arab neighbors. Now, that's Iran. That's Turkey as well. So it's a different Iraq with a different international orientation than what we saw in the past.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with Ray Takeyh, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations on the Opinion Page this week. His piece: "Iran's Waning Influence on Iraq," was featured in The Washington Post. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Let me ask another question: Iran's most important Arab ally is clearly Syria, a government that's under considerable stress from the protests under way in that country and under economic sanctions as well. How does that factor into Iran's feelings about its role in Iraq?</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, to begin with, Iran has also been trying to develop a post-Assad approach. Namely, it's been calling on President Assad to reform. It's been hedging its bets a little bit. So it is preparing for the post-Assad period, and it feels that so long as Syria remains a loggerhead with Israel, whomever succeeds Assad is likely to maintain some aspect of that confrontational foreign policy and therefore seize advantages in terms of relationship with Iran. So the relationship between Iran and Syria, that alliance which is three decades old, they seem to think may now predicated on longevity of Assad. They could be quite wrong about that impression.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yes, but they also use Syria as an - the transit point for arming Hezbollah in Lebanon and arming other groups as well.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Absolutely. And they would think that those relationships would continue because Syria would continue to find itself at odds with Israel and therefore would have his own interest in subsiding and maintaining Hezbollah as a ready force. Now, that certainly - the fact that the Syrian government is wobbly and having difficulties and quite possibly may be overturned by the Arab Spring revolt that it's experiencing has caused Iran to become even more interested in having a relationship, some sort of a cordial relationship with the Iraqi government because that gives it some degree of strategic depth, certainly in the area that is most interested to Iran, namely the Persian Gulf region, that sort of the Gulf area. So that makes the relationship with Iraq even more important for Iran, which is why it's curious that it's engaging in self-defeating activities, such as supporting militias that are antagonizing the central government.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet, Iraq, you say, is interested in maintaining close relations with all of its neighbors. You mentioned its non-Arab neighbors. Its neighbor to the immediate south, Saudi Arabia, increasingly at loggerheads with Iran.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, this is the problem that Iraqi government is having today, namely that the Shia government of Iraq that has come to power through elections, however problematic those elections may have been and however difficult and disorderly the process may have been, is being rejected by the mainstream Arab states, whether that's Syria, it used to be Jordan and others. So one way of actually having Iraq have a less of a relationship with Iran is to open up those diplomatic and economic channels. The principal obstacle to that is Saudi Arabia, which tends to view Iran and Maliki, Iraq and Maliki in such subsidiary terms. So in terms of Saudi-Iranian relationship, I think it's very important for Iraq to remain exempt from U.S.-Iranian retaliation and relationships and Saudi-Iranian confrontation. And to the extent that it can do that, it has to do it with its own delicate diplomatic dance.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yet if - and this is going back to our earlier conversation. We have heard admissions by the Iranians, unusual admissions in recent days about the effectiveness, in some respects, of international sanctions. If those sanctions are to be avoided and if they're stepped up in regard to the forthcoming IAEA report on Iranian nuclear capabilities, the easiest way to do that is through Iraq, to conduct business on the other side of that border.</s>RAY TAKEYH: The sanctions that are being imposed on Iran are essentially far more intrusive than that. And they have to do with cutting off Iran from the international financial lending organizations, cutting off Iran and segregating them from banks. Therefore when India wants to buy Iranian oil, it is unable to carry out that transaction simply because most banks will not process it. That is not something that Iraq can mitigate. I mean, you can do contraband trade and so forth, but no one - there are countries that want to buy Iranian oil. Iranian oil is not a proscribed commodity.</s>RAY TAKEYH: It is not an internationally illegal practice to purchase Iranian oil. Many Europeans do - Japanese do, South Koreans, Indians, the Chinese. The issue of sanctions is in this globalized, interconnected system of financing that we live in, once Iran is segregated from that system, it's very difficult to carry out those transactions. It's not a question of carrying contraband. It's this question of buying it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yes. But can't that Iranian oil be repackaged as the new find here in Iraq?</s>RAY TAKEYH: Well, Iraq itself is trying to have its own oil and have international commerce come in. Largest companies investing in Iraqi oil are actually the Chinese. So it's unlikely that Iraq would offer itself as such a thing. But Iranian oil can't find customers - there's no question about it - through spot markets, the grey markets or what have you. The only question is, at what discount does Iran have to sell its oil in light of its international difficulties?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ray Takeyh, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.</s>RAY TAKEYH: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ray Takeyh, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, with us here in Studio 3A. A link to his piece, "Iran's Waning Influence on Iraq," can be found at our website. Go to npr.org. We've also posted links to a number of other op-eds we considered for the show today. You can find those at facebook.com/nprtalk. Tomorrow at this hour, we'll talk with a "Frontline" reporter who went undercover in Syria. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. |
To feed, the hawk moth unrolls a long proboscis, sticks it in a flower like a straw, and slurps up nectar. It looks like a hummingbird feeding. Like the hummingbird, the moth has to be stable in the air to get a drink. Biologist Ty Hedrick filmed the moths with high-speed video to try to understand how they hold steady. | IRA FLATOW, host: Joining us now is Flora Lichtman, one of the, with...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: How are you, Flora?</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: I'm pretty good. How are you?</s>IRA FLATOW, host: I'm getting the mouth to work better. What do we got this week?</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: This week is pretty neat. We have footage, really beautiful, high-speed footage of a moth. And believe me, this is a moth like you have never seen it before. When I think of moths, I think of them bumping into lights and bumping into my screen door - clumsy.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Right, right.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Clumsy flyers.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Fly in circles, going around places. Yeah.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: This is the most graceful creature. And, in fact, it's a hawk moth, and it's also called a hummingbird moth. And that's because it feeds in a very similar way to a hummingbird. So these moths approach a flower, and they unroll this long proboscis, which is basically like a tube. It's a straw. It's a straw...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: It looks like a hummingbird's - straw, yeah - go ahead.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: They have a beak, but anyway...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. Yeah. A long straw.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Then they use a tongue, apparently, which is weird. But - so these moths use a proboscis. And Ty Hedrick, who's the researcher who studies them, say they approach and they have to kind of hover in front of the flower. And this is - he describes the problem they have.</s>TY HEDRICK: Just holding position in front of a flower and trying to drink out of a straw, now that's as long as your own body, means you have to be able to hold position extraordinarily precisely. It's really treading water in the air with its wings.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: And that's exactly what it looks like...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Right.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: ...when you see them in this video. And so the question that Hedrick wanted to understand is: How do they do that? I mean, they're these really lightweight creatures. There's wind blowing. There are other moths around. How do they stay so still? And what he did to figure this out was, basically, to try to knock them down, to destabilize them. And this where the video gets crazy.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Unlike your other videos, this is like...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: No. This one really takes the cake. I couldn't believe it when I saw this footage. So basically, they took a cannonball shooter from a pirate, like, toy ship and modified it in a 3D printer. So it didn't shoot - it used to shoot darts, and now it shoots these tiny, little modeling clay cannonballs. And they shoot the moths as they lure them in to take a drink of this fake flower. They nail them with these cannonballs. It's a little - it's painful to watch.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: But no moth was hurt in the production of this...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: So they say. I mean, I gave Hedrick a hard time about this.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You can watch the video.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: And he was like, they have an exoskeleton. They keep going back. They're fine. Don't worry.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And it's...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: But you can decide for yourself.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. You look at the video, and you see these little - these moths, which are beautiful. They look just like hummingbirds, and you'd think they are hummingbirds.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And they're able to maneuver with this giant straw coming out of their nose, it looks like...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: ...and stay in position while they're flapping their wings in slow motion. It's very pretty.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: It's very pretty. He said, actually, if you want to imagine the problem that they have, think about taking a straw that's your body length, and then trying to take a drink out of a 7-Eleven cup. You are standing on the ground, and that would be tricky. Now imagine if you're treading water or you're flying in the air, it's kind of amazing. So that's what they're studying.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And this - and so they're studying how this - how the moth is able to stabilize itself. And you can see in the slow motion, its body is moving, but the head is abso-- like a ballerina, and it's beautiful.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: This is the kind of amazing thing that they found, the flapping. The way that these moths fly actually is what keeps them aloft. They don't have to do much thinking, in other words. So they sort of invest in this flapping strategy that makes them way more stable than they would be if they were flapping in a different way, or they had a helicopter or something.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Right. Right.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: And that's how they, you know, kind of survive the swatting and these other things.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: It's our Video Pick of the Week. It's called...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: It's called "When a Moth" - "How is a Moth like a Hummingbird?"</s>IRA FLATOW, host: "How is a Moth like a Hummingbird?"</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: See for yourself.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. You can see for yourself, when a moth is like a hummingbird. It's our Video Pick of the Week. It's up there in our website at sciencefriday.com. And...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Let me sneak in one more thing. Our egg contest...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Oh, yes.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: If you entered the egg contest, the results are coming next week. Thank you to the hundreds of people who replied. And to the dozens of people who got it right - which was amazing to me. I mean, I had no idea. So...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: That was the egg up in the weightlessness of...</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Egg in space.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Egg in space contest. Thank you, Flora.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN: Thanks, Ira.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: It's up there in our Video Pick of the Week. You can go to our website at sciencefriday.com and have a look. |
Superdelegates are moving in Obama's direction, but a Pennsylvania win for Clinton could change all that. Senior Washington editor Ron Elving explores the latest financial and rhetorical woes on the campaign trail. | ALEX CHADWICK, host: From Pennsylvania to Washington and NPR's senior Washington editor, Ron Elving. Ron, welcome back to the show.</s>RON ELVING: Good to be with you, Alex.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So what about this? Mr. Dean, the Democratic Party chair, ready to start pressuring the superdelegates to make their choices, and we read a report yesterday that Senator Clinton's campaign is actually running a deficit now. And her double-digit lead in Pennsylvania dwindling to a single digit. So what about the prospect of her saying all right, enough for me?</s>RON ELVING: There's not much prospect to that, Alex. I think she's going to win in Pennsylvania. There will be argument over whether or not she won by enough, unless she wins by double-digits, which she could. Unless she actually loses outright in Pennsylvania, I don't think she's going to be bothered by any of the talk of her dropping out. Her campaign has been organized for some weeks now, perhaps two months really, around the idea that, if she just hangs in long enough, enough negative things will emerge about Barack Obama to create doubts about him. And the delegate count will be in his favor, but,if she can just keep it narrow enough, she can persuade enough superdelegates to come to her side by persuading them that Barack Obama is unelectable.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But you know, the negatives are going up for her as well, at least in the polling data that I read.</s>RON ELVING: Yes, and her negative, that is to say the unfavorable rating that she has with many Americans, has been an underlying problem for her campaign, going back to even before the campaign began, but the Clintons have always had this view of it.</s>RON ELVING: This is an unusually good year to get the Democratic nomination for president. Anything that's necessary to get that nomination is a price to be paid because, in the end, in the fall, it will be down to a contrast between a Democrat and a Republican. There'll be somebody against the Bush administration policies, someone in favor of them, and when you cast the decision in those terms in November, they believe they can win.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But the superdelegate reports that I've read over the last week or so, people coming out and declaring, well, I've made up my mind now. It's going Senator Obama's way.</s>RON ELVING: Yes, the superdelegate count has been moving in his direction, really, ever since Super Tuesday and particularly in the last month or so, which is surprising given that Hillary Clinton had some wins, Ohio, the Texas primary, although not the Texas caucuses, and she had some sense of recovered momentum. I think after a Pennsylvania win, particularly if it's heavy, then I think she will be able to bring some greater equity to the movement of the superdelegates. But, for the moment, they have been trending towards Obama, and her lead among superdelegates has shrunk from about 100 to something more like two dozen.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: How important are these money reports at this point? If Senator Clinton is indeed running a deficit, doesn't look to be a big deficit at this moment, but do the political people say this is an important marker?</s>RON ELVING: It is an important marker in the sense that, it is allowing Barack Obama increasingly to outspend her, not only because he has raised more money, but because he has raised more money that is eligible to be spent in the primary. Much of her money is segregated for use in the fall. She can't touch it now. So he has about four times more applicable money in cash on hand, and he's running well ahead month after month in raising more money than he spends. The Hillary Clinton fund raising has been a juggernaut in its own right, but then there's also the Hillary Clinton spending juggernaut, which has been a little greater. For example, in March, she raised about 20 million dollars and spent over 22 million dollars.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: NPR's senior Washington editor Ron Elving. The vote is tomorrow. Ron, we'll talk again in the next couple of days. Thank you.</s>RON ELVING: Looking forward to it, Alex. Thank you.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Stay with us on Day to Day from NPR News. |
The 2007 Black Weblog Awards are being handed out, and News & Notes Web producer Geoffrey Bennett weighs in on that and the stories that are making the rounds on the show's blog, "News & Views." | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've got our weekly blogger's roundtable coming right up. But we are going to take a look at what's happening on our blog, News & Views, first. And with me is our Web producer Geoffrey Bennett.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hey, Geoff.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Hey, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So I understand that today is a big day in the black blogosphere.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Indeed. Today, the winners of the 2007 Black Weblog Awards are announced. Now, these awards honor the best black blogs in over 30 categories.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Say that 10 times fast.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Exactly.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Best black blog, blah, blah, blah.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Yeah. They honor the best black blogs - there you go - in over 30 categories like news, business, gossip and design. And they grew out of a need to recognize the black blogosphere in a way that hadn't been done previously.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: And some of these previous winners have actually turned their blogs into businesses like the woman behind the popular gossip site Young, Black and Fabulous. She has enough traffic going to her site each day that she's able to sell ad space and pocket the revenue. But that's the exception to the rule. Most people can't quit their day jobs. They blog out of a personal catharsis.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: At least not yet. And so, going back to our own blog, what stories have people talking?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Well, the discovery and release of Coretta Scott King's FBI files has people talking on our blog and elsewhere. One of our listeners, Bob Kingston(ph), said, it's sad and confounding that the government would do such - would go to such great lengths to keep tabs on King's life - makes us wonder who else they're surveilling these days. So the beginnings of a conspiracy theory there.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: And last week Civil Rights Commission report about affirmative action in law school admissions generated a lot of conversation when we first posted the story on our blog. And then even more after we had the commission's chairman on the show to talk about it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And, as usual, on our blog, we love having people weigh in on their own personal experiences. And then a lot of times, having them on the air. What are we looking for this week?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Well, we're covering the 50th anniversary of Little Rock Nine - the segregation of Arkansas Central High School. So, we're looking for folks who actually desegregated their own local school districts. And we're also looking for people who can help illustrate this national problem of mortgage defaults. And everyone can hint us on our blog.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, Geoff, we hope that - we've already got some great responses on desegregation. So, love people to check in.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thanks, again, Geoff.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Geoff Bennett is the Web producer for NEWS & NOTES. |
Commentator Marty Kaplan of the Huffington Post says it's time to give control of presidential debates back to the voters. He says he misses the League of Women Voters. | Mr. MARTY KAPLAN (Director of the Norman Lear Center, University of Southern California): Where's the league of women voters when we need them?</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Day to Day contributor, Marty Kaplan, a former Democratic speech writer. It is time to rest control of the presidential debate from the networks, he says and give it back to the people.</s>Mr. MARTY KAPLAN (Director of the Norman Lear Center, University of Southern California): The networks and the national press love their (unintelligible), their gates, their controversies, their heat. They, alas, are not the grown-ups in the political process. The grown-ups are the voters, who lamely in the mind of the political class, are troubled by the war, the economy, and boring stuff like that. The first 10 people in a phone book, could do a better job of asking candidates questions that voters care about. There is no freaking reason in the world, to grant the networks a rotating monopoly on staffing, and broadcasting these debates. The whole media-political system we now suffer from, is tilted entirely toward trivial combat, pathetic niggling over words, ridiculous sideshows, and inside baseball. Now that we know how awful it can be, are we really powerless to stop it from continuing to waste our time, and turning our political process into a third-rate version of a condescending reality show? Sorry. I just got to get a grip on this bitter thing.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Marty Kaplan, Director of the Norman Lear Center at the University of Southern California. These remarks first appeared on his blog, at The Huffington Post. |
For analysis of the news from Africa, Farai Chideya talks with Bill Fletcher, former President of TransAfrica Forum. This week, they discuss the African nations that are saying "no" to U.S. forces on the continent. Also, Israel turns back refugees from the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan, and United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon visits Sudan. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time now for our Africa update. This week, some African nations say no to Africom, United States' new military command in Africa. Plus, Israel decides to close its doors to refugee from the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan. And United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon visits Sudan for the first time.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time now for our Africa update. This week, some African nations say no to Africom, United States' new military command in Africa. Plus, Israel decides to close its doors to refugee from the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan. And United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon visits Sudan for the first time.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Bill Fletcher, the former president of TransAfrica Forum. Bill, how are you doing?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Bill Fletcher, the former president of TransAfrica Forum. Bill, how are you doing?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on the program.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on the program.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, thanks for coming on. And let's start with Africom. It's a new controversial military hub in Africa. And the Southern African Development Community, or SADC, says none of its members will allow U.S. forces in their borders. Now, that organization has 14 member countries. But the Liberian president says Africom is welcome in her country. So tell me about Africom's role on the continent. What's the purpose?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, thanks for coming on. And let's start with Africom. It's a new controversial military hub in Africa. And the Southern African Development Community, or SADC, says none of its members will allow U.S. forces in their borders. Now, that organization has 14 member countries. But the Liberian president says Africom is welcome in her country. So tell me about Africom's role on the continent. What's the purpose?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): The Africom actually is in the process of development right now. But it's basically a reorganization of U.S. military operations, as well as some nonmilitary operations, for the continent. The stated or ostensibly the purpose of Africom is humanitarian. But very few people believe that to be actually the case.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): The Africom actually is in the process of development right now. But it's basically a reorganization of U.S. military operations, as well as some nonmilitary operations, for the continent. The stated or ostensibly the purpose of Africom is humanitarian. But very few people believe that to be actually the case.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, that sounds like - it sounds a bit ominous to say a few people believed that's the case. Is there going to be a widespread rebellion against Africom's role by various African nations?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, that sounds like - it sounds a bit ominous to say a few people believed that's the case. Is there going to be a widespread rebellion against Africom's role by various African nations?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I think we've seen it already. I mean, what we have to look at is that since 9/11, there has been an increase in the U.S. military presence in Africa, and at a point when African needs nonmilitary solutions to their problems. But we've seen the trends that heal military initiative, and we've seen greater U.S. interest in protection of the oil regions, particularly in the Gulf of Guinea. And so most people tend to think, the most knowledgeable observers, tend to think that Africom is primarily about securing oil and other natural resources.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I think we've seen it already. I mean, what we have to look at is that since 9/11, there has been an increase in the U.S. military presence in Africa, and at a point when African needs nonmilitary solutions to their problems. But we've seen the trends that heal military initiative, and we've seen greater U.S. interest in protection of the oil regions, particularly in the Gulf of Guinea. And so most people tend to think, the most knowledgeable observers, tend to think that Africom is primarily about securing oil and other natural resources.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I want to move on to another topic just because there's so much to talk about. Israel has faced a lot of criticism over its recent decision to turn back new refugees from Sudan. And the country's responded by saying it's going to turn away all foreign refugees, not just the ones from Sudan, that solving the Darfur crisis, as well as harboring those affected by it, should be a global effort. Is Israel being targeted unfairly for doing what a lot of countries also do, which is just not taking in new refugees?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I want to move on to another topic just because there's so much to talk about. Israel has faced a lot of criticism over its recent decision to turn back new refugees from Sudan. And the country's responded by saying it's going to turn away all foreign refugees, not just the ones from Sudan, that solving the Darfur crisis, as well as harboring those affected by it, should be a global effort. Is Israel being targeted unfairly for doing what a lot of countries also do, which is just not taking in new refugees?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): No, I don't think that they're being targeted unfairly at all. I think that on the one hand, the international community does need to step up to plate to help the Darfur refugees. But I think that we have to understand that we're talking about refugees from a genocide. It was in 1939 that a ship with Jewish refugees from Europe was turned away by the United States, turned away and forced to return to Europe where many of the refugees subsequently perished in concentration camps. So I think that there is a particular moral obligation that Israel has to the victims of a genocide.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): No, I don't think that they're being targeted unfairly at all. I think that on the one hand, the international community does need to step up to plate to help the Darfur refugees. But I think that we have to understand that we're talking about refugees from a genocide. It was in 1939 that a ship with Jewish refugees from Europe was turned away by the United States, turned away and forced to return to Europe where many of the refugees subsequently perished in concentration camps. So I think that there is a particular moral obligation that Israel has to the victims of a genocide.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So this is a case where you think that the specific history of this nation, which was, in fact, constructed to provide a haven for the world's Jews after the genocide of the Holocaust is one that creates a special set of circumstances.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So this is a case where you think that the specific history of this nation, which was, in fact, constructed to provide a haven for the world's Jews after the genocide of the Holocaust is one that creates a special set of circumstances.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Some people - and I bring that up because recently, we had a conversation about "The Devil Came On Horseback" and there was an argument made, well, maybe black Americans need to step up for Darfur because there is this common African ancestry. I mean, couldn't this play out in many different ways?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Some people - and I bring that up because recently, we had a conversation about "The Devil Came On Horseback" and there was an argument made, well, maybe black Americans need to step up for Darfur because there is this common African ancestry. I mean, couldn't this play out in many different ways?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Well, it can. And actually, I do think that black Americans should step further forward on Darfur. But I think that it's very difficult for one to argue that Europe and the United States turned their backs on Jewish refugees who were on the verge of annihilation by the Nazis, only to say that, well, you know, we have these refugees from Darfur, yeah, maybe there's a genocide - no, we have to close our borders. What's the difference?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Well, it can. And actually, I do think that black Americans should step further forward on Darfur. But I think that it's very difficult for one to argue that Europe and the United States turned their backs on Jewish refugees who were on the verge of annihilation by the Nazis, only to say that, well, you know, we have these refugees from Darfur, yeah, maybe there's a genocide - no, we have to close our borders. What's the difference?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I want to stay with the issue of Darfur. This week, the U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon is visiting Sudan, including Darfur. And he's scheduled to meet with the Sudanese president, Omar al-Bashir, in Khartoum. Is this a dramatic step forward in dealing with this ongoing genocide?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I want to stay with the issue of Darfur. This week, the U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon is visiting Sudan, including Darfur. And he's scheduled to meet with the Sudanese president, Omar al-Bashir, in Khartoum. Is this a dramatic step forward in dealing with this ongoing genocide?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I'm not sure whether it's dramatic, but it's definitely important. And I applaud the secretary general for making this trip. And I'm hoping that what this represents is further pressure on the al-Bashir government, which they need to feel. They've been feeling pressure from a number of their trading partners. They've been feeling some pressure from China. They need to feel the pressure of the international community. But it's not just the al-Bashir government that needs to feel the pressure, all the parties need to understand that the situation in Darfur cannot be resolved militarily.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I'm not sure whether it's dramatic, but it's definitely important. And I applaud the secretary general for making this trip. And I'm hoping that what this represents is further pressure on the al-Bashir government, which they need to feel. They've been feeling pressure from a number of their trading partners. They've been feeling some pressure from China. They need to feel the pressure of the international community. But it's not just the al-Bashir government that needs to feel the pressure, all the parties need to understand that the situation in Darfur cannot be resolved militarily.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, when you talk about the issues of commerce, you can also talk about China's role in propping up to Sudan. Is that the lever or is the lever to change things military, a U.N.-African Union hybrid force?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, when you talk about the issues of commerce, you can also talk about China's role in propping up to Sudan. Is that the lever or is the lever to change things military, a U.N.-African Union hybrid force?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Actually, I think it's both. I think that there's no question to my mind but that there needs to be an A.U.-dominated force in Darfur for peacekeeping operations. It has clear mandate to take steps to defend the population against genocide. There's absolutely no question about that. But by itself, that's not enough.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Actually, I think it's both. I think that there's no question to my mind but that there needs to be an A.U.-dominated force in Darfur for peacekeeping operations. It has clear mandate to take steps to defend the population against genocide. There's absolutely no question about that. But by itself, that's not enough.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): In addition, there needs to be the economic pressure on al-Bashir government, which we are just discussing. But there also needs to be the honest broker. That is there needs to be that party that can bring the different forces together in order to come to a political settlement.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): In addition, there needs to be the economic pressure on al-Bashir government, which we are just discussing. But there also needs to be the honest broker. That is there needs to be that party that can bring the different forces together in order to come to a political settlement.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Finally, do you think the African Union troops, which have themselves been underfunded and sometimes under-resourced to the point where they barely even have enough supplies, can they really step up to this issue?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Finally, do you think the African Union troops, which have themselves been underfunded and sometimes under-resourced to the point where they barely even have enough supplies, can they really step up to this issue?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I think that they cannot without further outside assistance. And by that, I do not mean outside troops. My - one of my biggest criticisms of the United States and the Bush administration is that it should be the force rather than threatening no-fly zones and other things to provide the financial and logistical support to the A.U. to make it possible for African troops to intervene, to play a role in resolving an African problem.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): I think that they cannot without further outside assistance. And by that, I do not mean outside troops. My - one of my biggest criticisms of the United States and the Bush administration is that it should be the force rather than threatening no-fly zones and other things to provide the financial and logistical support to the A.U. to make it possible for African troops to intervene, to play a role in resolving an African problem.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Bill, thanks so much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Bill, thanks so much.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Thank you very much.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Thank you very much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bill Fletcher is a writer and former president of TransAfrica Forum. And he spoke with us from NPR's Washington, D.C. headquarters.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bill Fletcher is a writer and former president of TransAfrica Forum. And he spoke with us from NPR's Washington, D.C. headquarters. |
Radio Express, a California-based production company, produces and exports pre-packaged music radio programming to more than 130 countries, including several in Africa. The company has just created "Jammin' Africa," a program that helps African artists get exposure across the continent. NPR's Tony Cox visited Radio Express, and spoke with members of the staff, including CEO Tom Rounds. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How do you put music on the move? Well, Radio Express is a Los Angeles area company that specializes in pre-packaged music shows. It sells them to more than 130 countries, including several in Africa. The Coke Side of Life Mixshow sponsored by the beverage company is a hit on the continent. But it sounds like any urban radio station here in the states.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Male #1: Yo, put your hands up, Nigeria. It is time to party once again with the Coke Side of Life Mixshow. What's the deal? (Unintelligible) and coming up, let's fire things off with Pretty Ricky. We'll get some help from reggae dance hall king Sean Paul in the new track off their album, "Late Night Special."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Radio Express is also exporting a new program called "Jammin' Africa." It helps African musicians get exposure around the continent.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NPR's Tony Cox went to Radio Express and met some of the team there. Here's CEO Tom Rounds.</s>Mr. TOM ROUNDS (CEO, Radio Express, Inc.): The basic format is R&B and hip-hop. It's the urban - American urban format, and most of what you're going to hear on the number one stations is American hip-hop and R&B. The emerging African pop, hip-hop and R&B scene is what has interested us in this project.</s>Mr. TOM ROUNDS (CEO, Radio Express, Inc.): Unidentified Female #1: In this hour, I've got a "Jammin' Africa" connection e-mail from Nigeria. Ludacris checks in on the "Jammin' Africa" Backstage Pass and I have new music from Nigerian superstar 2Face Idibia and an appearance from South Africa's own Tumi with "Maria."</s>Mr. TOM ROUNDS (CEO, Radio Express, Inc.): Unidentified Woman #2: (Singing) Maria.</s>TUMI (Singer): (Singing) Drove a Range Rover and herself insane. Game over when the pleasures waned.</s>TONY COX: I was going to ask about language. How much of an issue is that for both the music and for the DJs who are playing the music, communicating across multiple languages?</s>Mr. TOM ROUNDS (CEO, Radio Express, Inc.): Well, in all of these - see, Nigeria really comes down to six or seven cities. English is spoken in cities by almost everyone, whereas if you get out of town very far, you're going to be into Yoruba and Ibo and so forth. But the commercial radio in those big cities is built on an English base because it's higher-income generally, and that's where the money is.</s>WILD CHILD (DJ, Jammin' Africa): All the way from Lagos, Nigeria for "Jammin' Africa." It's your boy Wild Child taking you to where it's going down. Brace yourself because the (unintelligible) festival is back with a bang. First of all…</s>TONY COX: Here in America, hip-hop music in particular because of the lyrics, the misogyny, the profanity, has been very controversial and very profitable. How much, if any, of that is an issue, particularly the lyrics and the profanity and the misogyny have been issues for the music in Africa?</s>Mr. TOM ROUNDS (CEO, Radio Express, Inc.): This is a very interesting question. The countries that are heavily Christian or very religious such as Nigeria are very sensitive about that. East Africa's wide open - almost anything goes. One of the top stations in Nairobi, for example, programs generally in English but they'll slip into the local dialect called Sheng, which is kind of a street combination of English and Swahili. And they can get away with anything in Sheng because the authorities in Nairobi don't understand it and don't speak it. It's more like a street language.</s>TONY COX: In terms of the United States and the music that is exported from here to Africa through Radio Express - you have international competition also - other countries that are producing music. Is the United States still the musical culture of choice for people in Africa?</s>Mr. TOM ROUNDS (CEO, Radio Express, Inc.): Oh, well, as far as music is concerned, yeah. The US has a special place in the minds and hearts, musically at least, of most of the African metropolitan population.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was Radio Express CEO Tom Rounds.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And next, Tony got a quick tour of the facilities with vice president of production Christian Jones.</s>Mr. CHRISTIAN JONES (Vice President, Production, Radio Express): So this is the Radio Express studio. We got two rooms - an A room and a B room. We mix some of the main shows here in the A room. And right now we're mixing the "Urban World Chart" show in the B room, which airs primarily actually in Africa. It airs currently in Nigeria, in Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, a few other countries and...</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Nnamdi Moweta joined Tony and Christian Jones. Moweta is the music consultant and artist liaison for "Jammin' Africa." Christian started out by explaining how the program offers a different take on music than a typical urban radio show.</s>Mr. CHRISTIAN JONES (Vice President, Production, Radio Express): With the new launch of "Jammin' Africa," we are mixing African music with international music. So we're trying to create a healthy balance of that within the context of the show. So it does feel more localized and more expansive, inclusive of all the music on that continent as well.</s>TONY COX: How do you - let me ask you - it's Nnamdi, correct? Nnamdi - and what country are you from?</s>Mr. NNAMDI MOWETA (Music Consultant and Artist Liason, "Jammin' Africa"): I'm from Nigeria.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, you're from Nigeria. So do you think that the people in Nigeria in particular want to hear traditional African-sounding music mixed in with hip-hop?</s>Mr. NNAMDI MOWETA (Music Consultant and Artist Liason, "Jammin' Africa"): Yeah. It's overdue. Nobody has done that. The fact that an artist in Lagos can hear his own music mixed with your Akon or Beyonce, that gives him a whole lot of music credibility in the neighborhood and the newspaper because you look at the charts, oh, this guy is from Nigeria. Oh, he's from Kenya. He's bulleting up the chart. And this chart is coming from Hollywood. It's not coming from Lagos or coming from Nairobi.</s>TONY COX: But as an African yourself, do you worry that your own culture is being diluted with this influx of American music?</s>Mr. NNAMDI MOWETA (Music Consultant and Artist Liason, "Jammin' Africa"): Music has to grow. We have to open up. Our artists have to learn how to bring in other influences. So it's very important for our artists at home to hear all these new artists coming out from America. And then it means a lot to them to look at the charts. Oh, I'm number 10 today. Next week, I'm bulleting to number eight. It does a lot for their career.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was NPR's Tony Cox speaking with Christian Jones and Nnamdi Moweta of Radio Express. Jones is vice president of production and Moweta is music consultant and artist liaison for the Radio Express program "Jammin' Africa." |
African Americans make up a disproportionate number of the nation's low-income employees, according to a new study from the Center for Labor Research and Education at the University of California, Berkeley. Labor specialist Steven Pitts, the study's lead author, explains the findings. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For many children across the country today is the first day of school. Fifty years ago today, the governor of Arkansas ordered State National Guardsmen to stop nine black students from entering Central High School in Little Rock. Weeks later, President Eisenhower ordered U.S. Army troops to escort the nine children into the school.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: During the coming weeks, NEWS & NOTES will bring you our own original reports on this important civil rights anniversary. But we'd also like your help. Please visit our blog, nprnewsandviews.org, and tell us your personal stories if you were involved in desegregating your local school. And regardless of who you are, we'd like to hear your reflections on this historic event.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Today's news proves we're still wrestling with many issues of race and social justice. Lots of us spent Labor Day kicking back with a glass of iced tea and waving goodbye to summer. But if you stopped to get fast food at the drive-thru or spent a night at a motel, your weekend plans may have relied on the work of some of America's low-income employees. A disproportionate number of them are African-American. That's according to a new study from the Center for Labor Research and Education at the University of California, Berkeley.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And for more we've got the study's lead author, Dr. Steven Pitts.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hi, Dr. Pitts.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): How are you doing today?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I am doing great. Now, there have been so many studies about low-income workers. What makes yours different?</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): Well, I think one thing that we saw in the course of our study is that oftentimes when people frame the question of jobs in the black community and look at the problems there, you know, they're focused on the question of unemployment. And what we've found in our study is that there's really a two-dimensional problem on jobs in the black community, although, issue of unemployment, a very real problem there. And there's also a very real problem of low-wage jobs. And when you think about the lot of activity that goes on in the black community, it focused on job training. But job training doesn't really address the issue of blacks who have jobs, whose jobs need to be improved. So I think one important element of the study is to kind of broaden the focus, to go beyond unemployment, to also look at the question of low-wage work.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So give us a brief thumbnail sketch of the average person or a typical person you're talking about.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): Well, we found that about a third of all black workers in 2000 worked in three basic industries: retail trade, so at McDonalds, Wal-Mart, Targets, the mall. They may work at health care, whether it be in a hospital or home health care industry. They may work in hotels. In looking at those three industries who have said they employ about a third of black workers, a large, large majority of those workers have low-wage jobs.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): We used a cutoff of 12.87 per hour, and we found in retail, say, the malls -whatever, about 73 percent of black workers there have low wages. In health care, around 61 percent. In hospitality, hotels, around 80 percent. And so we have a lot of people working now who are working full time actually, but who simply have low-paying jobs.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, what role, if any, does discrimination play in this kind of parsing out of who gets to work in low-wage jobs?</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): I think you have two things that are happening that are kind of intertwined. On the one hand, you do have that a lot of the jobs that are growing in this country and I what call place-based that's stuck in this country, that won't be outsourced, so we aren't going to Beijing to go to McDonalds. Those, sort of, place-based kind of industries are growing very rapidly, and those are largely low-wage jobs. That's the kind of the basic contexts.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): And then you lay on top of that issue of racism in terms of employer preferences for non-blacks into the slotting of certain genre of the jobs and to not having blacks in jobs that create ladders. And so it's a combination of both basic racism today, historical racism, but also the nature of the economy that we face with today as well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, you could argue that to avoid getting a job at McDonalds, you just need to stay in school, get an education. So is this really a question of individual responsibility? Not a question of some grand plan that other people are imposing on low-income workers?</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): Really not. I mean, people should stay in school and understand certain things. It's not even a question - that's the real bottom line what responsible people do undertake. But the reality here is that - look at the future growth in this country, and you examine what kind of I call those place-based industries. The industries are probably - are not threatened by outsourcing. Many of those jobs are low-wage jobs. Somebody will work in retail jobs. As long as they're being created, somebody will work on those jobs. It doesn't matter what sort of training people have coming out of school. Somebody will have those jobs, even in an ideal world. If we had every single person in this country a Ph.D., you will still have the retail jobs. You still have the jobs in hotels. And somebody will do those jobs.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): So both things we need to address. We need to make sure that people do take their own personal responsibilities but beyond that, and the fact that we tend to ignore is that we need to improve the options people have when they finish their training. And that's why I want to hope, if possibly, we can focus on a bit more.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Just briefly, fair wage legislation. Should there be fair wage local legislation instead of just minimum wage?</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): There should be. I - as you know, here in San Francisco, we actually have a higher minimum wage than the state and federal level. That's an example…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It looks like you've been attacked by an emergency vehicle. But just briefly.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): I'm okay. Still safe here. I'm sorry. I apologize for that. So that would be one useful tool. Also in San Francisco, people passed what's called a sick-day ordinance to require firms to provide sick days.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): You know, in Chicago, city council passed a big-box ordinance, which would have required for all retail above a certain size to pay a certain wage and to provide certain benefits. Those are examples of laws that we passed at the local level that can also - improve the quality of jobs.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Dr. Pitts. We want to thank you very much.</s>Dr. STEVEN PITTS (Labor Policy Specialist, Center for Labor Research and Education, University of California, Berkeley): Thanks for your time.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dr. Steven Pitts is a labor specialist with the Center for Labor Research and Education at the University of California, Berkeley. |
ABC's Jake Tapper discusses the outcry over Wednesday night's Democratic debate in Pennsylvania. 'Trivial' comments inspired blogger Jay Smooth to create a "Soulja Boy Presidential Debate Remix." | MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. If there was any doubt that YouTube matters for the election, here's evidence. This is the soundtrack to a video response to Wednesday night's presidential debate, and it appeared almost instantly, it seems, from a talented social critique named, Jay Smooth.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Musical commentary from Jay Smooth. He's founder of hiphopmusic.com, and a host of the Underground Railroad on New York radio station, WBAI.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Jay Smooth wasn't the only one criticizing ABC News' approach to the debates. Twenty-four hours after, the network had received nearly 19,000 comments. Bloggers and journalists have also been registering their disapproval. Jake Tapper is a senior national correspondent with ABC News and he joins us now, and just to note, Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos both refused to talk to us about this. So, you're the one, Jake.</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): The brave Jake Tapper stepped forward.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, what do you think of all these?</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): That's the (unintelligible). I think that it's remarkable that we've had 21 debates among the democratic presidential candidates, and this is the first time Senator Barack Obama and his allies have complained about the questions being unfair towards him.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Are you saying it's just his allies that are complaining?</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): No, no. I can see why other people are taking issue with the debate. I mean, these things can be debated. Every debate could be debated after (unintelligible). Brian Williams had a debate in Cleveland. People thought that there was unfair picking on Senator Clinton. I mean, people have their opinions on these things. I do think that a lot of the complaints are coming from allies of Barack Obama. People who are stated allies of Barack Obama, and people who are allied with Barack Obama whether or not they want to admit it to the public, and by that, I'm referring to many members of the media. Yes. It's fairly indisputable that Barack Obama has not been asked a lot of tough questions about his record, and about his positions on issues from members of the media, and I think there is generally a pro-Obama slant in the media.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I think a lot of the criticism though, if I'm reading it correctly, was not necessarily that the questions were anti-Obama, but that they were anti-substance for almost the first hour of the debate, that people wanted the questionnaires to be about policy differences and what they would do about, you know, the economy, or Iraq, or healthcare, but instead the questions were about why Obama doesn't wear an American flag lapel pin, or whether or not his former pastor is patriotic.</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): That was a question from a voter, the one about the flag pin, and a voter in Latrobe, Pennsylvania.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, a voter that was chosen by ABC News.</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): Right, but a voter in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. I understand the complaint. I guess I just don't understand why these questions are irrelevant to these critics. I don't think they are. I don't think that they should exist just unto themselves. I think they need to be part of a larger debate in which substantive issues are asked as well, but that's what Charlie and George did. Point of fact is, there were 20 debates already. So a lot of the policy differences have been hashed out, but at the same time, I don't know that there are the huge differences in policy between Clinton and Obama on the subject.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So what's the purpose then, or what was the purpose then of that debate, if you're saying that their policy proposals are so similar. They're not really - and well talking about - well. You know, and hashed over again, and again, and again - then what is the purpose of having the debate in the first place?</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): Look, let me make it clear. There are differences, issues should be discussed. I can tell you from having been to Pennsylvania in the last week, a number of times, all of them are issues that the voters care about. They care about the economy. They care about healthcare. They care about Iraq. They also care about who these people are. They care about who Hilary Clinton is, who Barack Obama is, who John McCain is. Many voters, especially swing voters, Madeleine, a lot of swing voters do have concerns about what are Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton's attitudes towards small town working people. And the Reverent Wright does interest them. Now, does the media in general focus too much on trivial stories, like Reverent Wright, like the flag lapel pin. You know, I'm not going to disagree with that notion, that...</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, I mean, either they're trivial or they're not. I mean, you're saying that they do...</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): I'm putting - I'm putting trivial in quotation marks. I - you can't see me doing it. I'm - I'm putting - I have air quotes going on right now.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: But I mean, that goes to the heart of it, you know, I mean, are they trivial or do they - are they legitimate questions about character, and I think what you're saying is the latter, right?</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): I think that some of these stories are stupid, and I think some of them say something about who people are.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Jake, thank you.</s>Mr. JAKE TAPPER (Senior National Correspondent, ABC News): Thank you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's Jake Tapper, Senior National Correspondent for ABC News. |
Africa is one of the hottest tourist destinations in the world, and now — travel experts say — is the time to book your trip. Keith Bellows, editor-in-chief of National Geographic Traveler explains what makes Africa a popular travel destination. Plus, he offers tips on where to go and what to pack. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But now, we want to move on to a different lens on the continent. Africa is literally one of the hottest tourist destinations in the world, and now could be the best time to book your trip.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've got Keith Bellows, the editor-in-chief of National Geographic Traveler. He has a life's worth of experience on the continent, and here are some of his must-see recommendations.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): South Africa, obviously, is a starter place, I guess. Botswana, Okavango Delta, truly a remarkable water landscape. Kenya, Zambia where you're right on the border with Zimbabwe. And that's where Victoria Falls is, the greatest waterfall probably in the world.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I've crossed Victoria Falls from one side to the other.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): And you've seen those people bungee jumping, no doubt.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. Looks like those crazy people.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): Yeah. I don't know how they do it. And intensity, I mean, you've got Kilimanjaro, the highest mountain in Africa. You've got the Ngorongoro Crater. You've got the Serengeti Plains. It is a remarkable, remarkable galaxy of things to see and do.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, what about nations not to go to? There's always like that what not-to-wear column, or what not to wear on, you know, in terms of going out at night. But what about what not to visit?</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): Well, and unfortunately, we hear about the what-not-to visits a lot more than the where-to-gos in the news. Alas, I was born in the Congo. And I hate to say this but that is probably, you know, a place that you don't want to go. It's unstable. It doesn't have great infrastructure. It's one of the richest countries in Africa potentially. But it is not - it's not what I would call your starter country. Liberia, Sierra Leone, a lot of unrest there. Those would be countries, I think, that you might better off be avoiding.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So there are a lot of things that people have to go through in order to get to Africa. I don't just mean the expense. I don't just mean the passports. I'm also talking occasionally about shots. Talk a little bit about health.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): No question. I mean, you really have to be careful about this. You really need a proof of vaccination. If you're going to West Africa, you're talking about yellow fever, dengue. Pretty much most of Africa, you have to protect against malaria, so you're going to be taking malarium. There are some other medicines that you can do. You've got to be a little bit aware of bilharzia, which is kind of a sleeping sickness disease that if you get into, you know, still standing water in certain parts of Africa, it's possible that you could contract that.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): But I don't want to over dramatize this. I mean, these are precautions that you take. It's not like you get out of the, you know, the car, the plane, whatever, and boom, you're going to get a disease. You're not.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now what about the passport situation? You know, the government has moved to these new passports that have radio chips, RFID chips, in them. But what about any regulations you should know about in terms of getting a passport or being able to leave the country?</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): My guiding principle here is, if you think that you are going to leave the country for any reason, whether it's Africa or it's Jamaica, get on the passport situation right now because no matter how complicated it is, it's going to be more complicated if you leave it to the last minute. Everybody who's listening to this, look at your passport. See when it's expiring. If it's within the six months, get on it. Renew it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Give me a moment where something in your travels just transfixed you.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): Well, I have two elephant stories. The first probably when I was three. We - my family had a pet elephant in the backyard. I've never forgotten this.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What do you mean by a pet elephant?</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): Well, it's a little baby elephant who is basically our lawnmower. And the last time I was in Africa, we - my wife and I - were charged by an elephant, a mother elephant actually, and transfixed is a sort of relative word. We were transfixed for seconds and then running for our lives. We were…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh my gosh.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): We were on an open jeep. We outraced her. We found safety and we thought we were completely in a clear and then, boom, she came around the corner and there she was again. So that was fairly transfixing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You had to let your heart rate settle down a little bit after that.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): Yeah, for about five days.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, finally, and this may seem pedestrian, but what about packing? You know, some people may take their designer cases or their duffle bags and stuff them with every conceivable, you know - what should you really take when you're going to visit Africa, which, of course, has its cities but going out of the cities?</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): Yeah, well, leave your Manolos at home. It's the basic stuff. Bring insect repellant, bring a hat, bring sunscreen, bush attire. And what I mean by that is tans, greens, no white. You do not want to attract or surprise the animals. You want to be - you want to merge as much as possible into the environment. Sturdy footwear, always bring duct tape; something's ripping all the time, and binoculars, and a camera.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): My presumption is that most people who go to Africa do want to spend time in the bush. You're perfectly acceptable in Cape Town restaurants, and something that doesn't require a jacket and tie. I go with the backpack. I really keep my clothes and stuff to a minimum. And I assume a couple pairs of jeans, three or four shorts and T-shirts. That does it. And then warm clothing. The safari drives in the morning, it's a very frosty experience.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Keith Bellows, thank you so much.</s>Mr. KEITH BELLOWS (Editor-in-Chief, National Geographic Traveler): My pleasure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith Bellows is editor-in-chief of National Geographic Traveler. Their annual "Tours of a Lifetime" issue comes out in October. |
Despite a lack of funds, the Republican hopeful is benefiting from a lengthening Democratic race. Analyst Juan Williams breaks down the latest numbers. | ALEX CHADWICK, host: In politics, Senator McCain's campaign has been not getting so much attention this week as the two democrats have done some very high-profile sparring, but polls show that may not be a bad thing for Senator McCain. Joining me now as he does every Friday, NPR News Analyst Juan Williams. Juan, the recent polls shows Senator McCain running just about even if he's in a hypothetical match-up with either democrat. He's slightly ahead of Senator Clinton. Maybe his campaign is deliberately staying kind of out of the spotlight to keep the media focused on the Obama-Clinton battles.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Not a bad idea, Alex. In fact, this is causing some kind of manic reaction among democrats. The party officials are really anxious about the head to head numbers because there's no reason, again from a statistical point of view, that any Republican should be running anywhere close to any democrat.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: If you look back a year, it was more than a 20 point spread that Americans said they wanted any Democrat over any Republican after two terms of President Bush, and of course, you know President Bush's ratings, approval ratings are down at 20 percentage, the war is unpopular, economy in trouble and yet, there's one republican who seems to be doing pretty well as you just pointed out, and that's John McCain.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And he's doing well not running away from President Bush's policies, but saying he's going to stick pretty closely, I think, to the policies for which Mr. Bush is suffering in the political polls. He is going to stay behind the war in Iraq, and he's a tax cutter like President Bush.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: He's staying with the Republican theme in part, I think Alex, because he needs to make sure that he has the conservative base with him going forward. And on the war, again, his point is that he knows how to run this thing right and that he can make sure that America wins the war. So, that's his approach. I - it's amazing how well he's doing right now among independents and even some conservative Democrats.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And how do you explain that, especially given that he's essentially carrying on similar policies to what President Bush is?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, he gets very positive press. In fact, if you look at the three candidates remaining in the race, it's going to be no surprise to you that a Pew poll recently found that most Americans say, more than a third of Americans say, that most of the news they get about Hillary Clinton is negative. And Barack Obama does much better, but the one who does absolutely the best is John McCain.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Juan, according to a story at the political.com website, Senator McCain's campaign has developed a whole new kind of strategy - a new way to run a campaign, very decentralized. Partly, this is required because they don't have the money to run a traditional campaign. But it's also a kind of intriguing, it seems to me, idea.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, it is. But as you point out, this is really a function of money. He's leaning right now towards taking public financing for the campaign, because there's no way he's going to match either Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton when it comes to fund raising. So, the idea is, take the government money and then, have people make contributions to the Republican Party - something called the Victory Campaign Fund. And of course, rely on the 527s, all those support groups to throw money in as well.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Your best political conversation of the week?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: I've had a surprising number of conversations in the last days since the Obama-Clinton debate in Philadelphia. But focused on the way ABC handled the debate, George Stephanopoulos and Charlie Gibson. Obama campaign is just up in arms over what they viewed as the trivial, petty questions focusing on everything from Obama's minister, to why he doesn't wear a flag pin. They just feel like, it has gone into the tank, and that they have never seen such pettiness. The Obama people just feel like, his worst debate performance came in Philadelphia and a result of a news media that has gone away from big issues and big concerns, and is instead locked into finger pointing and pettiness with regard to Obama, who is now the front runner.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: We'll have more on that in a moment. NPR News analyst, Juan Williams, a regular guest, speaking with us today from the airport here in Los Angeles. Juan, thank you.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: You're welcome, Alex. |
These employment numbers are just one glimpse at the lives of people trying to make it. Yemane Asfaw, 57, is one of them. He is a former teacher, who emigrated from Ethiopia 12 years ago, and now earns $9.50 an hour as a security guard. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: These new employment numbers offers just a glimpse into the lives of thousands of Americans trying to make it. Yemane Asfaw is one of them. He's 57, a former teacher who emigrated from Ethiopia 12 years ago. Since then, he's taken many jobs to support himself, including driving a cab. And today, he's worked his way up to $9 an hour.</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): I've been a security officer for the last three years. All these time trying to get by; it's not easy. The money I make - almost 80 percent of that money goes to pay my rent. So that's the most difficult thing. And the 20 percent left, I use it for transportation and food, and it's not enough at all. So it's always struggling, struggling.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So where do you live?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): It's a studio for $900 a month.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mm-hmm. And do you live there alone?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): No. I live with - I have a roommate.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So there's two of you in a studio apartment.</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): Yeah. But it's not - the management don't allow - only one person, so the other person, you know, hide or something like that, because I can't afford by myself.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That must feel very unsettling. You must feel sometimes worried because you're not even supposed to be there with a roommate.</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): That's my - biggest worry is to pay my rent, you know. You get evicted; you'd be on the street anytime. And probably 10 years - most of the security guys I know, they live with their mother. You know, they are, like, 34 years old because they couldn't afford the - so it's a very serious problem.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What do you hope could be different? Do you think that - have you looked for other jobs that pay more, that might have benefits?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): Yeah. But I need some skills, you know, to get. But I don't have no time. I mean, I'm just trying to survive right now. So we - right now, we working to form a union with the Service Employees International Union, SEIU. Those workers who are members of the union, they make more money and they have medical benefits. So, that's my hope right now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So since you don't get benefits right now, what happens when you're sick?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): I go emergency, then they send the bills. There's nothing I can do. And I don't have enough sick leave, so I just pray I get sick on my day offs, you know. If I lose one day wage, that creates big problem. So I waited until my day off. You know, the hospital takes eight, nine hours.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, yeah.</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): Yeah.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah, the emergency rooms take a long time. Does it ever get you depressed that your life is this difficult?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): Oh, very much. I mean, constantly, I'm worried, especially at the end of the month. Sometimes, I come short to pay my rent. Sometimes, I work overtime like 16 hours overtime. That will give me a little room, you know. Otherwise, just a regular 40 hours a week. I'm worried about the future, too. It's got to the point where I cannot live like, you know, I cannot live like this.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Why do you stay here? Do you think, I mean, do you think, for example, that life would, in some ways, be easier for you back in Ethiopia?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): You know, in Ethiopia, people work 16 hours to make $10. That's really not - a worse place to be right now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, even though this is difficult, it's still, in some ways, gives you some opportunity, I guess.</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): Oh, yeah, very much. I mean, like this talk, you and me, it's impossible over there. It'll cost you a life. So this is a democratic country. We just still have to, you know, push to make some changes, I think.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, what would you like to see in terms of changes? Would you want to see a different health care system? Would you like to see job training for people like you so you could get better jobs? What do you think would help you specifically?</s>Mr. YEMANE ASFAW (Security Officer): I was teaching English back home. I have two years college. If I get some help, if I get my degree, you know, I probably make more money. I work with PacWest Security Company almost 10 months now. I only missed one day work. I'm there 15 minutes before my shift. So like everybody else, you know, I do my best but still struggling.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mr. Asfaw, thank you so much for coming in.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: MR. ASFAW: Thank you very much. I really appreciate this opportunity.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yemane Asfaw is a 57-year-old security guard. He lives and works in Los Angeles, and joined me here in our NPR West studios. |
NPR's Ari Shapiro speaks with Dr. Jeff Schaider, chairman of emergency medicine at the John H. Stroger, Jr. Hospital in Chicago, to help explain what happens to the body in extreme cold temperatures. | ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: OK, it is not news that the Midwest gets cold in the winter. But this week could be the coldest in a generation. Today parts of the Dakotas and Minnesota hit -27 degrees. That's not just uncomfortable, it's dangerous. To understand what those kinds of temperatures do to the human body, Dr. Jeff Schaider joins us now. He's chairman of Emergency Medicine at Cook County Health in Chicago. Thanks for being with us.</s>JEFF SCHAIDER: Hi, Ari.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: OK, I spent the first eight years of my life in Fargo, N.D., so I know what extreme cold feels like. But what is actually happening physiologically to our skin and our lungs when our bodies are exposed to these temperatures that are so far below zero?</s>JEFF SCHAIDER: Well, I think, you know, obviously it's a stress on the body. And I generally divide it into two phases as far as the cold goes. Number one, people often think about the cold affecting you on your skin in frostbite. And the other thing is when your body temperature drops as a result of being exposed to the cold more prolonged. And obviously, you know, both these things can cause severe injuries, sometimes death as well.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: In the kinds of temperatures we're talking about - I mean, as far as 25 below zero - how long does it take for those kinds of effects to set in?</s>JEFF SCHAIDER: From a frostbite perspective, I've seen patients develop frostbite with an approximate 10 to 15 minutes after being exposed to these extreme temperatures. So people would actually get outside, you know, walk down the street for about 10 minutes or so and develop frostbite in the back of their ears by not wearing a hat. So, you know, we always tell people very, very important - this is common sense obviously - they need to cover their extremities to not be exposed to these extreme temperatures.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: And in terms of the internal effects when the body temperature cools that you were describing?</s>JEFF SCHAIDER: Exactly. So that's what - we call it medically when the body temperature goes lower, it's called hypothermia. Initially when you're exposed to the cold you'll obviously shiver and try to warm your body up. That's your initial response. But as your body gets colder and colder, your response to the cold actually becomes less and less. You'll stop shivering then your body temperature will start dropping at a more rapid rate. And if you think about your body as I guess an engine, as it gets colder it moves slower. Your mind thinks slower. Your heart moves slower. And as time goes on, you become confused. You can go into a coma. And your heart would go slower. Your blood pressure will drop. And it really affects your whole body. And people could die from the cold in these types of circumstances.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Are there common mistakes that people make when they try to go outside in these kinds of temperatures?</s>JEFF SCHAIDER: Of course. I mean, we all make mistakes. But, you know, obviously in this type of situation, if you go out and you think you will not be exposed to the cold, you have to anticipate that might happen. If you're in the car, bring additional clothes, bring a blanket, bring an extra hat, extra gloves just in case something happens to your car. Alcohol does play a role too. People that go out and drink might walk outside because they don't feel the effects of the cold that much when they're intoxicated. And then in these types of situation they might be exposed to the cold for a long period of time and their body temperature would begin to drop.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Dr. Schaider, thanks so much for talking with us today.</s>JEFF SCHAIDER: Ari, thank you so much.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: That's Jeff Schaider, chairman of Emergency Medicine at Cook County Health in Chicago. |
Venezuela sits atop the world's largest oil reserves and is largely dependent on cash it earns through exports. The sanctions deny authoritarian President Nicolás Maduro the cash paid for the fuel. | ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Yesterday the U.S. Treasury Department announced sanctions that effectively halt U.S. purchases of oil from Venezuela. It's the most drastic step so far in Washington's efforts to push out Venezuela's authoritarian President Nicolas Maduro and help opposition leader Juan Guaido. The U.S. says he is Venezuela's legitimate leader. Reporter John Otis looks at the role that oil sales play in this power struggle.</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: Venezuela depends on oil for nearly all of its export income. And about 40 percent of its oil is sold to the United States for cash. Venezuela also sells oil to China and Russia, but those proceeds go towards paying back Venezuelan debt. That's why, for the Maduro government, the U.S. is such a vital customer. But now the U.S. has slapped sanctions on Venezuela's state-run oil company known as PDVSA. The U.S. claims that Maduro and his inner circle divert billions in PDVSA profits to their personal accounts and to pay off military officers said to be propping up Maduro's government. Here is U.S. National Security Adviser John Bolton at yesterday's announcement.</s>JOHN BOLTON: We have continued to expose the corruption of Maduro and his cronies and today's action ensures they can no longer loot the assets of the Venezuelan people.</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: The Maduro government had been receiving $11 billion annually in U.S. oil sales. Under the sanctions, any further U.S. payments would go not to Maduro but into bank accounts that could be used by Juan Guaido, Venezuela's self-proclaimed interim president. Thus, Maduro is unlikely to keep sending oil North, says Amy Myers Jaffe of the Council on Foreign Relations.</s>AMY MYERS JAFFE: You're Maduro and you need cash. You're not given cash to Guaido's account, so you're not going to send any oil here - period.</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: On state TV Monday night, Maduro called the sanctions a prelude to a U.S. invasion.</s>PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO: (Speaking Spanish).</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: He said the U.S. government wants to strip Venezuela of its property, riches and money and then take over our territory. Maduro then addressed the U.S. president.</s>PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO: Donald Trump hunts up Venezuela.</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: Analysts say that Venezuelan oil, which had amounted to 7 percent of American imports, can be replaced and they predict little impact on the U.S. economy. But the sanctions will likely cause even more agony for Venezuela. For starters, the U.S. is one of the few countries with refineries that can process Venezuela's heavy crude. Now Maduro must scramble to find new buyers for the half-million barrels that he used to sell to the U.S. on a daily basis. What's more, a cash crunch resulting from the U.S. sanctions could collapse Venezuela's oil industry, says Francisco Rodriguez, a Venezuelan economist.</s>FRANCISCO RODRIGUEZ: We will see, if Maduro remains in power, a decline of around 40 percent in Venezuelan oil production within the next few months.</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: All this will mean more misery for average Venezuelans. But Bruce Bagley of the University of Miami says that if sanctions helped force out Maduro it would bring immediate relief to millions.</s>BRUCE BAGLEY: They're already being hurt. More than three million have left the country - inflation. And the conservative estimate is going to be one million. It could be as high as 10 million. People can't get medicine. They can't get food. They are being jailed and suppressed. There is nothing much left to preserve.</s>JOHN OTIS, BYLINE: However, as recent history in Cuba, Syria and North Korea shows, sanctions are no guarantee of regime change. For NPR News, I'm John Otis. |
A mass shooting last week in Florida barely registered in national news. NPR's Audie Cornish talks with writer Carl Hiaasen, who argues in a Miami Herald column that the number dead shouldn't be all that matters. | AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: There was a mass shooting in central Florida last week, and you may not have heard about it. Many national news outlets barely mentioned it. We were one of the programs that didn't cover it at all. Now, part of that decision-making - the body count. Five people were killed in Sebring, Fla., when a 21-year-old man shot five women in a SunTrust Bank. Four were bank employees, and one was a customer.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Writer Carl Hiaasen writes about this in his most recent Miami Herald column. Hiaasen lost his brother to a shooting last year at the Capital Gazette newspaper in Annapolis, Md. Welcome to the program.</s>CARL HIAASEN: Thanks for having me on.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Now, there have been many shootings since the time you lost your brother in Annapolis. What was it about this one that made you write this column?</s>CARL HIAASEN: Well, it was close by, first of all. I live in Florida. I have my whole life. And I know Sebring a little bit, and it's a small town. But second of all, it was - you know, it was an execution-style killing that was horrific in every way. And the fact that it got so little attention spoke to the desensitizing of the national conscience on this kind of crime, which is a shame. And it's - part of it is human nature. You see enough of these headlines that you read the headline, and you stop there. And part of it is just wanting to look away. And that we can't afford to do.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: You write, God help us if this is what we've become - numb to home-grown slaughter unless the body count hits double digits. If you were an on-duty editor - right? - and had heard about a shooting, how would you decide whether or not to cover it, how much space or airtime to give the story?</s>CARL HIAASEN: You know, if it were up to me, they would all be covered as expansively as the shooting in Annapolis where my brother and four others at the newspaper lost their lives. And that got a great deal of attention at the time because the shooter had targeted journalists, and I think it made it a more newsworthy story in some editors' minds. But the truth is that every shooting like this should be covered. I would have covered it as a major story. I certainly would have covered it more than whatever Roger Stone was babbling about that morning, you know?</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: There's also a school of thinking about covering every shooting further desensitizes people.</s>CARL HIAASEN: Well, it might. What is the option? You wait for the body count to get in double digits. Do you wait for there to be a classroom of children involved? What makes one killing less newsworthy than another? If it was an ISIS guy who walked into that bank, it would have been the lead story for days and days and days. This is just another angry, white, male loser who had access to a weapon. And so it becomes routine. And the fact that we even think of it as routine is obscene. But to not cover it would be hiding a level of tragedy that happens almost every week to somebody and somebody's family. So that would be the most irresponsible thing a journalist could do.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Do you think that more people are starting to ask this question? I know for communities of color who often feel like crime and killings are overlooked...</s>CARL HIAASEN: Yes.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: ...By the media, they've felt this for a long time.</s>CARL HIAASEN: Absolutely, with total justification, with total justification. And I think, as the family of someone who died that way and as having met many, many others, I think there is a sense of singular purpose and commitment that every life does matter. It's important that we're slaughtering each other in this way that we have to contemplate regardless of the age of the victims, the color of the victims, the occupation of the victims.</s>CARL HIAASEN: The shooting in Sebring - four of them were bank workers who were there. They were made to lie down on the floor and executed along with the customer. How can that not be a major news story? How can that not affect anybody who's ever walked in a bank to put their paycheck in a bank account? I mean, it hits home. It should hit home.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: It sounds like what you're asking is for the media to think about these stories differently when they first break, right? Not should we cover this, but why wouldn't we cover this?</s>CARL HIAASEN: Exactly. If we don't shine a light on it and write about it and react with some humanity and horror every time it happens, we'll never get past it. We'll never get better as a society.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: You wrote that your brother would want you to write in the strongest words that what happened at the SunTrust Bank was every bit as horrifying, heartbreaking and newsworthy as what happened in his newsroom in Annapolis. Now that you've had an opportunity to do this writing, how has it helped you reconcile with his death?</s>CARL HIAASEN: Well, this is the second time I - you know, I've written about it. It took me a couple months after he was killed. I mean, I don't know that - I didn't write it to help myself, and I don't know that it does. That pain never goes away. And waking up every day thinking it was a nightmare - I don't think that ends for the families and loved ones of any victims.</s>CARL HIAASEN: And what Rob would have wanted - and I knew he felt because we talked about it after Parkland. We talked about it after Sandy Hook. We talked about it after the Pulse shootings - was that every one of these is a tragedy on almost an inconceivable scale. And you can't rate them or put them in order. I mean, he would say look; just because I was an editor and columnist who got killed, my death isn't more important and newsworthy than a bank teller in Sebring, Fla. I know he would want me to say that as strongly as I could, and I tried.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Carl Hiaasen, thank you for speaking with us and for sharing your story.</s>CARL HIAASEN: Well, thanks. Thanks for having me on.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Carl Hiaasen is a Miami Herald columnist and best-selling writer. He spoke to us from his Florida home. |
Documentary filmmaker Adam Stepan takes us to Brazil in film about that country's struggle with affirmative action. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Affirmative action has been a lightning rod in the U.S. for years, but that's not stopping Brazil from trying it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's a protest for racial equality in Brazil. In the past, the elite University of Brasilia has admitted only the wealthiest and widest of the country's upper crust. Now, the schools decided that up to 20 percent of its student body should be made up of black or mixed race students.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Adam Stepan is a documentary filmmaker. And in "Brazil in Black and White," he follows five students of varying backgrounds, all of them trying to earn a place at the prestigious university.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Adam, Welcome.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): I'm very happy to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you have a scene that, in some ways, is almost like a paper bag test where the girls have to be photographed against the white background to see if they're black enough. How did you feel filming that scene?</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): Well, that's definitely one of the most controversial aspects of the way that they've tried to implement affirmative action at the University of Brasilia. And it's something that, obviously, it's a tricky situation. Brazil is probably the world's most racially mixed country in for - it's got a long history of seeing itself as a racial democracy where people of various races inter-marry(ph) and socialize in a way that perhaps you didn't have here in the States.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): What they've done there is saying that we will have a secret committee that would actually photograph people and decide who's black. And that's, obviously, an uncomfortable thing. It was decided by a committee made up of professors, people from black rights movements in Brazil. So it's a - tricky, it's a -definitely, a tricky thing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you follow five young people seeking admission to the university. You follow four girls. Iolanda looks mestizo or what we might call biracial or multiracial, but she doesn't believe in affirmative action. Here's a little bit of her story.</s>IOLANDA DOS SANTOS (Student): (Through translator) I always say I'm black. I accept that. These days, some people try to take advantage of being black. They act like victims to get what they want. I'm against that.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): Well, Iolanda was - is just an amazing person. We - when we set out to do this film, we knew that there are so many complex issues. We figured, what we should really do is try to find some really interesting intelligent, young people who are in the middle of all this and whose stories can help us get a sense of what it means to be young in Brazil right now. And Iolanda was someone who just struck us from the first time we met her as someone who is young but has a lot of definitive ideas in her head and has thought about a lot of things in the way that, you know, most young people haven't.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): And - so she's - it's tricky. She's actually, like you noticed, against the whole quote, "idea." And that - I think, again, it has a lot to do with this whole Brazilian tradition of, in a way, resisting classifying people racially. And it's one of the things that Brazil is struggling with. How can you preserve this idea that people shouldn't be classified and yet deal with some very major imbalances in society.</s>RAFAEL MENDES (Student): (Through translator) I'm going to do civil engineering. I want to make buildings. My parents work in this area, too, so I'd like to do it too.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Rafael.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): Rafael is a young man from one of Brasilia's wealthier families. He lives in an area that has one of the highest per capita incomes in the world, a small part outside of Brasilia where a lot of diplomats and high government officials live. And he's someone who, historically, would be on a sort of fast track to get into the university. His parents are in a engineering firm and he's looking to follow in their footsteps. He lives in a gated community, a very large mansion outside the town and he has a chauffer who takes him across town to his private school.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you've talked to Senator Paulo Paim and he is the only self-identified black person in the Brazilian congress, black Senator.</s>Senator PAULO PAIM (Brazilian Congress): (Through translator) The anti-quota people don't want black in universities where they can prepare themselves to compete in the job market on an equal footing with whites. That's the bottom line. The rest is a bunch of hot air.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: He's the main force behind this move towards affirmative action. And what kind of person is he? You know, seems like he's a maverick. And is he getting help from U.S. civil rights groups?</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): Well, Senator Paim is a really interesting person. He's actually from the southern part of Brazil state that doesn't have a big Afro-Brazilian population, which makes the fact that he's managed to get elected and make so many things happen, even more remarkable. He's someone who's, I think, got a real strong vision of where he'd like to go with this whole debate and I think he also, like a lot of Brazilians who are trying to sort of move things in Brazil.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): A big frame of reference is the United States. They look at the civil rights movement here. They look at where American blacks are today. They look at Condoleezza Rice and they say, this is crazy. We're 50 percent of the population. We should - there's no way we should only be three or 4 percent of people in the university.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): And so I think he's - they look at that whole civil rights struggle in the U.S. and have been smart about looking at what works and what doesn't, and working really hard to make things happen.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, there's how Brazil has learned from the U.S. civil rights struggle. But what can we learn in the U.S. from Brazil?</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): One lesson that I certainly took away from the whole experience is that affirmative action works. I mean it's - if you look at where the U.S. is today and where it was 40 years ago, and you look at a country like Brazil that hasn't taken those measures, it's impression how - what - how much the U.S. hasn't transformed even though there's a lot to do.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): It's important that we recognize that and then - and it wasn't an easy thing to do. It wasn't - it was full of conflict and battles, but that's one lesson. I think also as you look forward, there's a good chance that maybe U.S. in 10 or 20 years might look a little bit like Brazil nowadays. At least, I hope so in terms of having more multi-racial couples, having more people who are from different parts of the world who are mixing and having kids together.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): So I think that you have - that'll hopefully happen but that won't mean that you can't stop thinking about affirmative action, you can't stop thinking about making things change for the better.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So it seems to me that with your background, an Irish-American married to an Afro-Brazilian, this must mean a lot to you personally. How did you come to this project in terms of your emotions and your self and your story?</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): When I first arrived in Brazil, I actually lived in Brazil as a little baby and I came back in my late 20's. One of the things that really struck you is the fact that in Brazil you had this, I guess, social, easy interaction between different races. But the fact that there were these big issues - and race wasn't being debated in Brazil. It wasn't something that people talked about in the same way they talked about it in the States. And it wasn't a political issue.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): So I think that that's exciting to be able to document that moment. On a personal level, I do, yeah, I have two kids who are half Irish-American half Afro-Brazilian, and right now, they're little girls. They're four and three. I don't think that - maybe this stuff has ever entered their head and, pardon me, says(ph), I hope it never - they'd never have to be worry about it. But I also think it's a positive thing that people are worrying about it and thinking about it. And, you know, we - it takes a lot of all the stuff, takes a lot of work and a lot of fine-tuning.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): CHIDEYA; Well, Adam, thanks for sharing your stories with us.</s>Mr. ADAM STEPAN (Director, "Brazil in Black and White"): Well, thanks for having me, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Adam Stepan is a documentary filmmaker and his latest film, "Brazil in Black and White," is part of PBS's "Wide Angle" series. It premiers tonight.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today. And thank you for sharing your time with us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog at nprnewsandviews.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African American Public radio Consortium.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tomorrow, travel tips for Africa. |
YouTube announced it will stop recommending "borderline content" — videos that misinform users in a harmful way. The platform has struggled to deal with extremist violent content and conspiracy videos. | AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Watch a video on YouTube, and you'll see a list of recommendations for what to watch next based on what you're watching at the moment and your search history. But it doesn't take much to go from a video that's fairly innocuous to one that promotes conspiracy theories.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That happens frequently enough that YouTube has come under pressure to change its algorithm. It says it will now promote fewer videos of what it calls borderline content. NPR's Andrew Limbong has more.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: In a blog post, YouTube defines borderline content as things that, quote, "misinform users in harmful ways" but don't quite violate their community guidelines. The company specifically cites flat Earth conspiracies...</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: We do not believe that we're flying in space whatsoever. We don't believe the Earth moves at all.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: ...Phony miracle cures and 9/11 truth videos.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Western civilization is doomed unless we face the unanswered questions of 9/11.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: There are plenty of other misinformation videos on YouTube, from anti-vaccine rants to conspiracies of school shootings being faked.</s>JOHN BOUCHELL: In my utterly qualified, expert opinion, there are several troubling facts being dispensed that I refuse to accept.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: These misinformation and conspiracy videos will still all exist on YouTube. They just won't be recommended to you. You'll have to look for them.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: Google, which owns YouTube, declined to offer anyone up for an interview, but the company says it will, quote, "work with human evaluators and experts from all over the United States to help train the machine learning systems that generate recommendations."</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: Zeynep Tufekci is an associate professor at the University of North Carolina studying the social impacts of digital technology and artificial intelligence. She says the big problem with the YouTube recommendation machine is that it's designed to get you to spend as much time on the platform as possible so they can sell more ads. The accuracy of the content doesn't matter.</s>ZEYNEP TUFEKCI: Just like a cafeteria, you're going to get people to eat more if you serve unhealthy food again and again and again before they even have a chance to finish their plate.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: And its effect - she adds that it's increasingly schoolchildren turning to YouTube for information and getting fed these types of videos. She wrote about the issue a while back in The New York Times.</s>ZEYNEP TUFEKCI: And I got flooded with examples and comments. Like, parents would put their kid in front of YouTube with a video from NASA - right? - some very innocuous, interesting content, which YouTube is full of. And 45 minutes later, the kid would come back and say, Mom, the moon landing never happened.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: YouTube is rolling out these changes to its recommendation machine gradually in the United States first, affecting less than 1 percent of all YouTube content. But Tufekci says it's around the rest of the world - Brazil, Indonesia, Sri Lanka - where misinformation on YouTube truly has the power to destabilize societies.</s>ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: Andrew Limbong, NPR News. |
As the federal government reopens, NPR's Audie Cornish speaks with Rep. David Price, D-N.C., about the conference committee that's seeking a resolution on border security. | AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The fight isn't over. Even though federal workers went back to work today after a historic 35-day partial government shutdown, lawmakers still have to reach an agreement on border security. They have three weeks to do that, and if they fail, there could be another shutdown. President Trump said he's doubtful a deal will be reached. He told The Wall Street Journal that he personally thinks the chances are less than 50/50. We asked Democratic Representative David Price of North Carolina about that prediction. He's a member of the conference committee that's working to find a resolution.</s>DAVID PRICE: That isn't exactly a positive signal going in. What he should be saying is that he's not going to shut down the government again. He's - he understands that you don't pay ransom to kidnappers. And we're - we can't get into the business of threatening a shutdown anytime there's an issue we really care about.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So to you, what is the main sticking point going into this three-week period?</s>DAVID PRICE: I can't say right now what the main sticking point is. I hope that there are many more points of agreement than there are disagreement. And when you have thing - disagreements you can't reconcile, then you wait to fight another day. But in the meantime, you secure what you can. That's the way a negotiation needs to work. The larger immigration agenda - still resolving the situation of the DREAMers and doing our part with international refugee flow, doing something about temporary protected status, ending these family separations. That's a huge agenda. It cries out for attention.</s>DAVID PRICE: If there's some way to address this or begin to address it in the context of these three-week discussions, I for one would like to see that happen. But the immediate objective is to get a Homeland Security appropriations bill passed for the current year. And that of course mainly will focus on border security.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Would Democrats accept temporary protections for DREAMers? These are the undocumented immigrants who came as children. Or will you push for permanent protections like a pathway to citizenship or something like that?</s>DAVID PRICE: Well, of course we'll push for a permanent solution. And that should include a pathway to citizenship. You know...</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So you see that as part of this three-week discussion and something that you guys are pushing for.</s>DAVID PRICE: It could be. We may focus more narrowly on the border security issue just to get the Homeland Security bill in place. But we certainly need to deal with the president's betrayal of the DREAMers. You know, he put forward a supposed compromise a few weeks ago saying he'd do a temporary protection for the DREAMers and a partial solution on temporary protected status, two problems that he created, by the way, in order to solve another problem he created, which was the shutdown. So that's pretty much a nonstarter.</s>DAVID PRICE: But if the question is, do we need to address the DREAMers situation; do we need to address temporary protected status; do we need to do our part with this international refugee crisis, of course we do. And if this three-week negotiation can then begin to work on that or can open the door to further work on that, I certainly hope it will.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Senator James Lankford, a Republican from Oklahoma, this weekend was quoted as saying there's a sword of Damocles hanging over lawmakers for the next three weeks. Does that sound accurate to you?</s>DAVID PRICE: It's only if the president makes this once again a - kind of a ransom-demanding situation. I think it's usually a mistake to tie an issue to a shutdown threat. And it's a tactic that you simply cannot reward because then the question is, what's the next issue, and what's the next shutdown threat? So...</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: But is there a scenario in which - for Democrats, are there conditions where you just feel like you could not give ground that would actually end up putting at risk another shutdown 'cause the three-week deadline would come?</s>DAVID PRICE: Listen; the shutdown happens only if the president doesn't sign a reasonable bill. There will be things he objects to, things I object to, things everyone objects to in any kind of agreement that we bring forward. But we will do our very, very best to forge an agreement that will pass both houses. And then the question is, does the president sign it, or does he demand that he have his way and throw another tantrum and have another shutdown? I very much hope that that won't happen and that the people on the Hill here who can persuade him, starting with the Senate majority leader - that they simply won't let that happen.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: You sound really fired up. And I'm wondering. Are people coming to the table still smarting from the last couple weeks? I mean, are people even in a mood to compromise?</s>DAVID PRICE: I think people are in a mood to get this solved. I don't think we're fired up in the sense that we're going to have our way or no way, but we know there's going to have to be some give and take, and we also know that we need very much to pass our appropriations bills. Of course, Homeland Security is the immediate focus. And the key to that appears to be getting a border security compromise worked out.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's David Price, Democratic representative from North Carolina. He's on the conference committee working to find a resolution on border security. Thank you for speaking with ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.</s>DAVID PRICE: Thank you very much. |
China's dynamic economy is slowing, giving some U.S. officials confidence America will have the upper hand with China in tough trade talks. But Chinese leaders may not be inclined to make concessions. | AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: There's another factor that could affect these trade talks - China's economy. It's slowing down. And American companies are feeling it. Yesterday, the construction machinery company Caterpillar said its earnings would be flat this year. They cited China's slowing economy. President Trump says the slowdown gives his negotiators leverage in their efforts to change Beijing's trade policies. NPR's Jim Zarroli reports.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: Right now China and the United States are engaged in all-important talks aimed at ironing out their differences over trade. If the talks don't succeed by the end of March, President Trump has threatened to increase tariffs on Chinese imports. As Trump sees it, the United States has an advantage over Beijing.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: China very much wants to make a deal. We'll see what happens. I like where we are right now. We're doing great as an economy. They're not doing very well because of the tariffs.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: Trump says China needs the U.S. right now, so it has no choice but to give in to U.S. demands. There's no question China's economy is slowing. Eswar Prasad of the Brookings Institution says consumers are buying less. Apartments are sitting empty. Retail sales are down.</s>ESWAR PRASAD: For instance, the sale of cars - in particular, luxury cars - has fallen quite sharply.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: But China expert Patrick Chovanec of Silvercrest Asset Management says despite Trump's claims, what's happening in China right now has little to do with U.S. tariffs.</s>PATRICK CHOVANEC: Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that U.S. trade pressure is actually a major factor in why China's economy is slowing. China's economy would be slowing anyway.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: China's growth, he says, has been fueled in large part by massive construction of roads, housing, office buildings and factories. It's built more infrastructure than it needs. And it's made a lot of loans to state-sponsored companies that probably shouldn't have gotten them. David Dollar, a former emissary to China in the Obama administration, says that kind of lending and spending can't go on forever.</s>DAVID DOLLAR: For a long time, they had very rapid growth of credit. And that was pushing investment and keeping their growth in some ways artificially high. And now they're paying the price for that.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: Over the years, China has sometimes tried to cut back on bad loans. It's doing so again right now. And some companies are failing as a result. And Dollar says that's what's causing the current slowdown. Eswar Prasad says U.S. trade pressure is complicating an already bad situation for the Chinese. But that alone isn't going to force China to make concessions.</s>ESWAR PRASAD: The Chinese do want a deal. But they don't want it so badly that they're willing to capitulate to the U.S. on all of the demands the Trump administration has made.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: And even if China wanted to make dramatic changes, there's a limit to how much it can do. David Dollar says China's reliance on state-owned enterprises and its lax intellectual property protections are deep-seated problems. They won't change overnight.</s>DAVID DOLLAR: I think the most you could expect would be China making some initial steps. But they're not going to change their whole system overnight because the U.S. is demanding it.</s>JIM ZARROLI, BYLINE: What China can do now, he says, is offer to buy more U.S. exports and open up some of its markets to outside competition. And he says those are the kinds of concessions that are most likely to be made at the current talks. Jim Zarroli, NPR News, New York. |
Oscar Micheaux was one of cinema's most prolific filmmakers. His movies touched on subjects like classism, interracial romance and passing. Patrick McGilligan, author of The Great and Only Oscar Micheaux: The Life of America's First Great Black Filmmaker talks about Micheaux's life and work. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oscar Micheaux was a jack-of-all-trades. The grandson of a former slave, he worked as a coal miner, Pullman porter, writer and businessman. But he's probably best known as one of cinema's most prolific filmmakers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Over three decades, he wrote, produced and directed nearly 40 feature-length films. His movies touched on complex and controversial subjects like classicism, interracial romance and passing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Here's a scene from his 1938 film "God's Step Children."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Woman #1 (Actress): (As Woman) I'm running away, mother. I've left Clyde(ph). You know I've never loved the man. And I can't stand it no longer. I've left him and I'm leaving the Negro race. Oh, don't you look at me like that. I've tried. Heaven knows I have. But I can't stand it any longer. My mind is made up and I'm through.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oscar Micheaux was a polarizing figure and much about his life is only now coming to light. Thanks in part to film historian Patrick McGilligan. His new book is called "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Patrick, thanks for coming on.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): Thank you for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So tell me little about the man, Oscar Micheaux, before he made movies.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: MR. McGILLIGAN: Well, he has a great life story. He was born into, you know, abject humble circumstances, really 40 acres and a mule. And I went back and looked at the tax assessor books to see really what poverty he came out of. Didn't finish high school because he went to work. And gradually moved up state through Illinois to Chicago, which was the black Mecca, and eventually got a job as a Pullman porter, which in those days was considered a very glamorous as well as demeaning job for a black man. But it would - and enabled him to travel the country. He fell in love with the country. He fell in love with travel and with the frontier. Saved up his money and moved to South Dakota in 1904 to become the only colored home setter for miles and miles around. And for 10 years, became a farmer out there.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So out on South Dakota, he really has the first important part of his life where he - besides being the only black man for miles around, falls in love with a white woman, has its warded romance with her, instead decides to marry a black woman from Chicago. His marriage falls apart. And he goes bankrupt.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And then in the depths of his depression and unhappiness, he sits down in a winter in a shack, decides to write his own life story called the "Conquest." So he becomes a self-published novelist.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: With all of it that was going on, how do you think that he thought about race?</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): Well, actually he bruited about the subject of race because he understood that he was living in a racist society and that doors were closed to him. And at the same time, he believed early in his life and career in the principles of Booker T. Washington and he believed in hard work and education and uplift and not complaining.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): And then he was very torn by this idea of interracial romance because his first great love was a white woman on the prairie. And he was really terrified of what would happen if he allowed himself to fall in love with her and have children because then those children worried him that they might have to pass as white in order to have any kind of equality on society.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): And this idea, which he pursued in his first novel and then in other novels, really became the underlying basis for some of the great themes of his films. And he pursued this idea of passing - and the absurdity and the tragedy of passing and really what it is, is an attack on racial categorization.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let's talk a little bit more about some of the themes you mentioned in his works. So, he tried to convey issues like success and hard work, as well as race, in some of his movies including "God's Ste Children." Let's listen to a little bit from the movie.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Woman #2 (Actress): (As Woman) Why is that there are so many -most all of our men, when they go into business, they got to be a crop gains, numbers bank, our policy shop? Why can't they go into some kind of legitimate business like white people?</s>Unidentified Man (Actor): (As Man) They could, but there ain't no set of economics. They're eyeing success that sticks in line with each resistant. Negro hates to think. He's a stranger to planting.</s>Unidentified Man (Actor): Unidentified Woman #2: (As Woman) I guess you're right.</s>Unidentified Man (Actor): I guess I think too much. Plan too much also. But after getting the opinion of our group, that we are failures, it seems at least you go right back to the beginning and start all over again. That's what I decided to do.</s>Unidentified Man (Actor): Unidentified Woman #2: You mean?</s>Unidentified Man (Actor): That I'm going to buy a farm and start at the beginning.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, that's a pretty harsh indictment by the Micheaux parallel character. Do you think that that really reflected his views and what did that whole scene say about how he thought of his social conscience with filmmaking?</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): Well, he believed in preaching in his films and he believed in preaching and hard work, obeying the law and education, all of these things, which sometimes he skirted himself. But he says all the way back to when he was a boy in metropolis, growing up in metropolis Illinois that he had those ideas and he would say them to people.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): And he would go to church on Sunday and he would be appalled by people who were sitting in pews that he knew he had seen drunk on Saturday night or where out of work and not trying to get work. And sometimes he brought it up and he'd say so even in his own novels. He'd say, sometimes, I'm too aggressive and I'm too acrimonious in my views. And if I were to moderate them and put them more politely, maybe people would understand that all I'm really saying is, go to work, get a job, get educated and do your best to uplift your life.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): That particular scene was attacked by the communist party, you know, which had many black members in the late 1930s in Harlem. And often, his films were attacked, and often they were praised.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Is his legacy tainted by the fact that he essentially plagiarized themes and plotlines in some of his movies?</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): No. I don't think so. I ended up investigating all of his misbehavior and show in my book that, you know, he was, at times, a liar, a thief, a plagiarist. He was arrested. He went bankrupt. He invaded creditors. He would do everything possible to keep going and write his books and make his movies. It's paradoxical because at other times, he's very upright and he's self-righteous and he's preaching morality and good behavior.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): But, you know, remember, he comes from slave descendants and slaves were considered legal property at one time. So I think he had good reason to skirt the law. And I think it's in the best tradition of art that he would do anything to continue to make his films. There are times when he crossed the line. He plagiarized his last novel writing couple of hundred pages line by line from another novel and signing his own name to it. He did cross the line and he did it over and over again, and he did it in order to survive because his life was an incredible struggle.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So he struggled until the very end. Who was he, as a man, at the end of his life and what was his legacy?</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): Well, he spent all of his money on a comeback film that he made in Chicago in 1947 called "The Betrayal." And as I have said, he - his life dream was to show his movies to white people as well and to open a film on Broadway. And "The Betrayal" finally became the film that opened on Broadway and the only film the New York Times ever bothered to review that was directed by Oscar Micheaux, that, in fact, the only time they ever mentioned Oscar Micheaux except in court proceedings and they penned it mercilessly.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): He went bankrupt. He died in 1951 penniless, buried in an unmarked grave. And it wasn't until the civil rights movement in the 1960s when academics and scholars started to look into the - this very rich past of race pictures and started to write and research about Oscar Micheaux that, gradually, his reputation began to be reclaimed.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): And nowadays, you know, there's a special award at the Producers Guild in Hollywood named in his honor and as a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And anybody in black America and in black show business knows who he is. And that's only white America that's - and white Hollywood that's slow to catch up.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Patrick, thank you.</s>Mr. PATRICK McGILLIGAN (Film Historian; Author, "The Great and Only: Oscar Micheaux"): Thank you for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Film historian Patrick McGilligan is the author of "The Great and Only Oscar Micheaux: The Life of America's First Great Black Filmmaker." And he spoke with us from member station WUWM in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. |
The 35-day government shutdown harmed the morale of federal workers, and is likely to make it harder to attract new employees. | ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Federal employees who didn't get paid for the last month will receive back wages as soon as the government can process its payrolls. But even after workers get their finances in order, it may take longer to repair morale and the appeal of a federal government job, as NPR's Brian Naylor reports.</s>BRIAN NAYLOR, BYLINE: For 10 years, Jared Hautamaki has worked at the Environmental Protection Agency as an attorney. He was looking forward to getting back to work today but has just about had it with the federal government as an employer.</s>JARED HAUTAMAKI: Federal employees are demonized by Congress and industry and the public. It's just not a good place to be.</s>BRIAN NAYLOR, BYLINE: Hautamaki says he was already thinking about getting a new job. And after a 35-day shutdown, he predicts he won't be alone.</s>JARED HAUTAMAKI: I think this is just going to further kill morale. It's going to hurt recruiting. Federal employees are already underpaid. This does nothing to retain stability in the federal workforce.</s>BRIAN NAYLOR, BYLINE: Studies have shown federal workforce morale was already on the decline for a number of reasons. The Trump administration instituted a hiring freeze and then a pay freeze. Now, with the shutdown, Max Stier, of the Partnership for Public Service, says working for a federal agency feels even less rewarding, especially for those workers with a sense of mission.</s>MAX STIER: I think that is what is most troubling for the federal workforce. Yes, it had real financial implications. But even more than that, it disrupted the core value proposition of the job, which is to be able to make a difference, to work for a purpose.</s>BRIAN NAYLOR, BYLINE: In a tight job market federal employees, many of whom are highly educated, would likely not have a hard time finding other jobs. Jessica Klement, of the National Active and Retired Federal Employees Association, says the effects of the shutdown are likely to be long lasting.</s>JESSICA KLEMENT: Federal employees, as I've learned over the years, take great pride in the work that they do for the federal government. And every day for 35 days, they turned on the television and were told, you have nothing to worry about. You're going to get back pay. Or are you even essential if you're not working during this government shutdown? There is untold morale problems coming from this that we'll see play out, I think, over the next few days, weeks and probably even years.</s>BRIAN NAYLOR, BYLINE: One area where the impact will be felt into the future is in recruitment. The federal workforce is already aging. There are five times as many IT workers in government over age 60 than under 30. Klement says bringing in younger workers is crucial, but it's not been made any easier over the last month.</s>JESSICA KLEMENT: The federal government already has a recruitment problem, right? Less than 7 percent of the workforce is under the age of 30. If you are 22, 23, graduating from college this coming spring, you watched this play out for the last 35 days. Are you saying to yourself, sign me up for that - probably not.</s>BRIAN NAYLOR, BYLINE: And especially not with the possibility looming of a renewed shutdown in just a few weeks. Brian Naylor, NPR News, Washington. |
Singer-songwriter Monica Dillon, who lived through Hurricane Katrina, joins guest host Tony Cox to discuss her song, "When the Levee Broke" — an ode to her home city, New Orleans. | TONY COX, host: I'm Tony Cox, in for Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>TONY COX, host: After Hurricane Katrina, many New Orleans' artists ask themselves how they should respond. Monica Dillon is a singer-songwriter who lost just about everything in the storm, everything but her creativity. After temporarily leaving her home, Monica sat down at a piano and wrote "When the Levee Broke."</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): (Singing) When the levee broke, my kinfolk scattered a thousand ways. When the levee broke, my kinfolk, I didn't hear from them for days. Didn't sleep at night…</s>TONY COX, host: Monica Dillon, welcome to the program.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Thanks, Tony. Thanks for having me.</s>TONY COX, host: You know, that's a nice tune, and we're going talk more about it in just a minute.</s>TONY COX, host: But first, you know, you've been out on the road, sharing your song with people around the country and the world, how are audiences responding to you and that music?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): One thing that I usually see either while I'm playing in the corner of my eye or after the song is over, I usually invariably see someone who's been crying, who's got a tear in their eye or who's really moved by the song, the message, the lyrics, the music of it.</s>TONY COX, host: You know, music does that to people, particularly if it touches you in a very emotional way. Let's talk about your story and the emotion that touched you when you first saw what happened to your home in New Orleans.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Well, for me, you know, like most people, we came back not really knowing what to expect. I left not knowing what to expect. There were things that I put on top of the bed thinking, at least if there's a little bit of water, you know, these are the things that I'll still have. I didn't expect that I'd come back to eight, nine feet of water. So you know, I went to this process of really trying to understand what had happened, you know, where do I go, how do I go forward from this and it was the same emotion that many people had and what I wanted to do was figure out how to express that in a song.</s>TONY COX, host: You know, I understand that you were a full-time electrical engineer before Katrina and that now…</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: …you've decided to dedicate yourself to music. Talk about that but begin by talking about when the music stirred in your soul to make you start writing what you just sang.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Wow. For me, I mean, music has always been a part of my life first off and, you know, there are times when we have to decide which master we're going to serve so to speak, and for me, you know, growing up, I definitely had a proclivity to science as well as the arts. You'll see a lot of people who have that kind of weird connection going on.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): And so the writing started, I think, after I moved back to New Orleans. I'm originally from here. I left after high school, came back unexpectedly in late 1998. And from there, things just kind of took off. Being in a place like New Orleans, if the music is in you, it's going to come out of you. And so I went from just, you know, doing some serious study at the piano particularly to writing songs.</s>TONY COX, host: It seems as if the Katrina experience - and don't let me put words in your mouth. I'm saying this based on the background information that I have about you. It seems that Katrina struck you in such a way that it - you became, not just a singer and a songwriter, but an activist, is that true?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): I would definitely say that. I would definitely say that. And, you know, my first CD, the music was kind of light, it was mellow, relaxing, you know, there's a little politics on it. A lot of what I'm writing now is definitely more political. And having the, I'd say, luxury or ability to travel a little bit more since my schedule is a little more flexible now, I've been to a lot of places and, you know, there are lot of things that we don't know about if we don't leave our backdoor. And so a lot of the music now that I'm writing about speaks to a particular message, a particular issue or something that lends some light to be shed on it.</s>TONY COX, host: Well, let's follow that point up with this because the irony for a lot of musicians is that since Katrina, the music of New Orleans is more popular than ever it seems. Yet there was a musician's demonstration just last weekend about fair wages. Were you a part of that march?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): I certainly was. I had my sign and all.</s>TONY COX, host: What was that about exactly?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Well, I think that there is this, there's a double-edge sword. A lot of musicians, you know, rightly so, have kind of gone to national notoriety after the storm, just being in a different place where their talents were recognized.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): When you live in a city like New Orleans where there are so many musicians per capita, it's often difficult to - for everyone to have their own shining light and for everyone to have that moment on stage.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): And as a result, what happens is sometimes your arts are diminished or taken for granted, and so the march was about saying, listen, we need fair wages, too, you know?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): The days of two-digit wages and salaries for band are over, especially when a lot of musicians have experienced another type of pay and another type of treatment in other cities.</s>TONY COX, host: We're going to hear a little bit more of your song in just a moment, but I have one more question for you.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Sure.</s>TONY COX, host: And I'm curious about this. I want you tell us about the difference in Monica Dillon, the person before Katrina and Monica Dillon, the person after Katrina.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Monica Dillon before Katrina, I think I lived life in such a way where I was surviving. And again, it's ironic. A lot of us, these last two years who've come back to New Orleans, have been doing that surviving.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): The challenge that I gave myself during those few weeks after the storm, when decisions had to be made and we had to figure out what are we going to do, I decided that I wanted to thrive and I wanted my life to mean something and I wanted to be happy with the decisions that I made, the choices I made. There was no reason to go back to a job where I wasn't happy, you know? So I think the Monica now, post-Katrina, is one who's, you know, just trying to make decisions that, you know, life is on a dress rehearsal. So that's what I would encourage everyone to do.</s>TONY COX, host: Well, I suppose "When the Levee Broke" is your coming-out song, in a sense, isn't it?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Yes, it definitely is, definitely is.</s>TONY COX, host: And it speaks through - I know that the words, when the levee broke my kinfolks scattered a thousand ways, and in a sense that included you scattering into a new life, didn't it?</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Absolutely, absolutely.</s>TONY COX, host: Well, Monica, I want to thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate it. As we end our interview, we're going to go back to your song "When the Levee Broke." Thanks again.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): Thank you. Thank you for having me.</s>Ms. MONICA DILLON (Singer; Songwriter): (Singing) When the levee broke, my kinfolk scattered a thousand ways. When the levee broke, my kinfolks, I didn't hear from them for a day.</s>TONY COX, host: This is "When the Levee Broke" by Monica Dillon, a singer-songwriter living in New Orleans. She joined us from member station WWNO in New Orleans. To hear a full version of the song, just go to our Web site nprnewsandnotes.org. |
The directors of the major intelligence agencies made their annual appearance before the Senate Intelligence Committee to present their global threat assessment on Tuesday. | AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The top U.S. intelligence officials were up on Capitol Hill today to give their annual assessment of the global threats facing the U.S. Those threats range from North Korea to China, Russia and ISIS. As NPR's Greg Myre reports, the intelligence chiefs largely agreed with each other but seemed a bit out of sync with their boss, President Trump.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: President Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un are planning another summit in about a month, and the president says his ultimate goal is the dismantling of that country's entire nuclear program. But Dan Coats, the Director of National Intelligence, sees it this way.</s>DAN COATS: We currently assess that North Korea will seek to retain its WMD capabilities and is unlikely to completely give up its nuclear weapons and production capabilities because its leaders ultimately view nuclear weapons as critical to regime survival.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Coats was one of six national security officials sitting side by side as they took questions from members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. While the president tends to discuss many national security questions in black-and-white terms, the intelligence chiefs offered more nuanced and somewhat different assessments. Maine Senator Angus King asked CIA Director Gina Haspel about the nuclear deal with Iran that Trump withdrew from last year.</s>ANGUS KING: Since our departure from the deal, they have abided by the terms. You're saying they're considering, but at the current moment, they're complying.</s>GINA HASPEL: Yes, they're making some preparations that would increase their ability to take a step back if they make that decision. So at the moment, technically they're in compliance.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: In Syria, Trump says the Islamic State caliphate has been defeated, and he has ordered the withdrawal of the roughly 2,000 American troops there. The first stages of the pullout have begun. But Coats offered a cautionary note.</s>DAN COATS: While we have defeated the caliphate, with a couple of little villages left, we should not underestimate the ability of terrorist groups, particularly ISIS.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Several senators, Republicans and Democrats, also joined the intelligence officials in taking a tougher line on Russia than the president. FBI Director Christopher Wray said the Russians are pressing ahead with fake social media accounts that attempt to sow divisions in the U.S.</s>CHRISTOPHER WRAY: Not only have the Russians continued to do it in 2018, but we've seen indication that they're continuing to adapt their model and that other countries are taking a very interested eye in that approach.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: A theme that came up repeatedly was the long-term challenge posed by China. The Justice Department announced criminal charges Monday against Huawei, the Chinese telecom giant. And U.S. officials say the company seems to be operating on two different levels. Again, here's Angus King.</s>ANGUS KING: It seems to me they have to decide they're either going to be a worldwide telecommunications company or an agent of the Chinese government. They can't be both. And right now, they're trying to be both.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Senators and the spy chief cited China's ongoing theft of U.S. intellectual property as well as its desire to challenge U.S. political and economic influence around the globe. Wray called China his biggest concern.</s>CHRISTOPHER WRAY: The Chinese counterintelligence threat is more deep, more diverse, more vexing, more challenging, more comprehensive and more concerning than any counterintelligence threat I can think of.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: And on that at least, the intelligence chiefs and the president appear to be in full agreement. Greg Myre, NPR News, Washington. |
Federal government workers who have been on furlough or working without pay, are getting ready to return to normal status now that the partial government shutdown is over. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tomorrow, furloughed federal employees will return to work after more than a month off the job. This means they'll be able to see their colleagues, start digging through their inboxes and, of course, start to receive their paychecks. But, as NPR's Rebecca Ellis reports, for some, this return is bittersweet, as federal workers face the possibility of another shutdown in just three weeks.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Towanna Thompson is excited for tomorrow.</s>TOWANNA THOMPSON: I'm ready to go back on Monday. I'm bored, and my family's tired of looking at me.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Thompson is spending her last day out of work with her grandson, picking up lunch and groceries from a food bank run by Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen. The nonprofit has been providing free meals for furloughed employees and their families in downtown D.C. for the last few weeks. She's ready to get back to work tomorrow. But she's also wondering how long she'll be able to stay on in her job as a program analyst for the Department of the Interior. The bill President Donald Trump signed funds the government only through February 15.</s>TOWANNA THOMPSON: I think it's stupid. Why do you want to open us up for three weeks, and then we have to go back and do this again? You know, Trump needs to wake up and smell the cappuccino.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Thompson says even though the shutdown is over, she's still budgeting. She's getting groceries today at World Central Kitchen. She'll keep going to the library instead of paying for cable or Internet. She's not going to see the doctor.</s>TOWANNA THOMPSON: I put off some medical procedures elected that I really need. But I'm going to wait for those, you know, just until after three weeks.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: This time is for paying people back.</s>TOWANNA THOMPSON: I've relied on friends and family. You know, now I have to pay back stuff that I begged, borrowed and stole.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: She's not the only one here today viewing the shutdown's end with some wariness.</s>BERNADETTE ARMAND: I'm more cautious than optimistic.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Bernadette Armand (ph) is glad she'll finally be getting paid. But she says she'll still likely need these donations from the kitchen throughout this week, if not longer.</s>BERNADETTE ARMAND: We were - we've been out here sort of working for free for many weeks now. And I think that the government showed that they can sort of get used to that.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Chef Jose Andres, who runs the kitchen, posted a video saying food will be served until this Friday. Though, if the government doesn't stay open, he promises to set up shop once more.</s>JOSE ANDRES: If for some reason things go wrong again, we will be there for them.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Some federal employees are convinced things will go wrong. Jared Hautamaki is an attorney at the EPA. During the shutdown, he'd been to food banks like Jose Andres' and picked up extra shifts at Home Depot. Tomorrow, he'll return to the EPA. But he's not cutting back on the shifts.</s>JARED HAUTAMAKI: I plan on working as many hours as I can at Home Depot the next three weeks to prepare for the worst.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Hautamaki is not optimistic that the government will stay open after February 15.</s>JARED HAUTAMAKI: I'm still budgeting that we're not going to get a check until two weeks from now.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: And then another week after that, and...</s>JARED HAUTAMAKI: We're shut down again.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: A lot of federal employees view these three weeks as a chance to pay the bills they've fallen behind on. Tax examining assistant Paul Kiefer had spoken with NPR during the holidays. Back then, he'd been furloughed from the IRS for about a week and was worried about not making his credit card payment.</s>PAUL KIEFER: Whether or not I can pay for the electricity, get any food, pay for the rent, whether or not I'm going to be thrown out onto the street.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Last Friday, he realized he'd made it through. He's going to keep his home in Austin, Texas. And he was ecstatic.</s>PAUL KIEFER: First thing that pops into my mind was, hallelujah. I can finally make my payments.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: He'd been desperately hoping for this next paycheck.</s>PAUL KIEFER: I didn't have that. I was - it was that - would have been pretty much a death sentence.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Kiefer is diabetic, and on top of everything else, he was running dangerously low on medication. Now he knows he can afford another batch.</s>PAUL KIEFER: So at least I have the opportunity to give myself a little bit of cushion.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: For Kiefer, three weeks is good enough.</s>REBECCA ELLIS, BYLINE: Rebecca Ellis, NPR News. |
NPR's Michel Martin asks The Wall Street Journal's Latin America editor David Luhnow why the international push to topple Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro is not an attempted coup. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to begin the program today by trying to answer a couple of big questions that you might have been thinking about. In a few minutes, we're going to talk about the moral arguments for and against the border wall that President Trump and his allies want to build on the southern border.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But first, we want to talk about Venezuela, where the standoff continues between President Nicolas Maduro and Juan Guaido, the head of the National Assembly, who has declared himself interim president. Guaido is backed by several Latin American neighbors as well as the United States, Canada and Israel. And more countries say they'll recognize Guaido if Maduro doesn't call new elections within a week. Maduro rejected that demand today, and he accused what he called the empire - the United States - of trying to launch a coup d'etat in Venezuela.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And that is language that at least a handful of Democratic members of the U.S. Congress and some progressive activists have been using to describe the situation. That includes Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, who tweeted, quote, "a U.S.-backed coup in Venezuela is not the solution to the dire issues they face" - unquote. The Latin American editor of The Wall Street Journal, David Luhnow, weighed in on Twitter to say no, this is not a coup in the works. We have David Luhnow on the line now to consider the question.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome. Thanks so much for talking to us.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: It's a pleasure.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So let me just say that you posted a long Twitter thread about this, and we don't have time for the entire thread. But if maybe you could kind of condense your argument using an analogy that you think maybe Americans would understand?</s>DAVID LUHNOW: Sure. Well, basically, what I'm saying is, you know, imagine living in a world where the U.S. president began to stack all the institutions like the Supreme Court just with political hacks instead of professional people. And the midterms came. Democrats won two thirds of Congress, and the president said, no, I don't recognize that, so I'm going to eliminate Congress with the courts, and I'll set up my own congress with my supporters. And then when it comes time for his re-election, he bars the Democrats from running. Any of the top politicians that the opposition party has are thrown in jail or forced into exile.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: They run elections, and the president wins again, but no one recognizes the election as free or fair. And even the guy who's in charge of the voting - electronic voting system says there's fraud. So that's essentially what's happened in Venezuela.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: And the real Congress there - the one that is the last democratically-elected body - is saying, hey, you know, our president's broken the Venezuelan Constitution many times. And that is the coup - not us, as the democratically-elected body trying to follow Venezuela's Constitution and saying, we no longer recognize the president. We are going to put the head of the National Assembly as interim president and call for new elections. So that, in a nutshell, you know, is trying to create an analogy where people might understand where the Venezuelan opposition is coming from.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So the bottom line for the United States, Canada and the Latin American countries that have already said that they support Guaido - their argument is that he is the last winner of an actual election, of a legitimate election.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: That's right. Maduro's re-election was recognized as a sham by 60 countries, including most of the world's major democracies. So his - this all started when he took his oath of office for his second term, which was essentially deemed an illegitimate term, in front of his fake Congress. And the real Congress said, not so fast. We think you're breaking Venezuela's Constitution.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Associated Press has a story today about Guaido traveling secretly abroad, including to Washington, to gather support. I mean, how are people receiving that there? Does it look to them there that the U.S. is interfering in Latin American governance again?</s>DAVID LUHNOW: Yeah. I think it divides largely along sort of partisan or ideological lines. I think many in the Latin American left are saying, this is the U.S. interfering once again in Latin American politics. As we all know, there's a long history of U.S. interference in Latin American politics. But that history is actually quite old now. I mean, certainly in recent decades, there hasn't been much in terms of direct interference in democracy. But it's still viewed - there's obviously a history there and a legacy that creates - any situation like this paves the way for it to be viewed that way.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: However, there are some - I think most of, from what I've seen, most of the people on the center and some on the left are saying, you know, hang on a minute, guys. If we for years argued against authoritarian dictatorships on the right, we have to be consistent and argue against authoritarian dictatorships on the left. It is sort of one of those quirks of history that right now, the three fully authoritarian governments in Latin America are all left-wing - Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. And they're very repressive regimes.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: You know, back in the day, back in the '60s and the '70s, it was U.S. supporting these right-wing military dictatorships. And I think that image of the U.S. backing - you know, the old phrase, he's a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch - well, you know, that's no longer the case.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's The Wall Street Journal's Latin American editor David Luhnow talking to us from Mexico City.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: David, thanks so much for talking to us.</s>DAVID LUHNOW: It's been a pleasure. Thanks to you. |
Mark Oppenheimer is a father of five. He recently wrote a piece for The Washington Post about how to raise an extrovert. He and his extroverted daughter Anna speak with NPR's Michel Martin. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: I think it's fair to say that we are in a loud moment. Our politicians are loud. Our music is loud. Our movie blockbusters are loud. Still, introverts are having a moment. Books have been written and TED Talks have been given about the virtues of quiet, sensitive people. So the question is, has that newfound appreciation left the extroverts out in the cold? Mark Oppenheimer thinks so. He's a father of five, and he recently wrote a piece for The Washington Post about his 5-year-old daughter Anna titled, "How To Raise An Extroverted Child In A World That Loves Introverts." In it, he describes his concerns about an exuberance that knows few boundaries in a world that lets say doesn't always appreciate that.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, it's been kind of sad around here with the government shutdown. And, also, I thought this would be a good time to call up Mark and Anna and hear more about extroverts. And they are with us now from their home in New Haven, Conn. Mark, Anna, welcome. Thank you both so much for talking to us.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: Thank you.</s>ANNA: Thank you.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Anna, can I start with you since you are the star of the piece?</s>ANNA: Sure.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tell me about yourself. What do you like to do?</s>ANNA: I like to read Harry Potter so I can become a genius.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Oh, yeah. That's good, yeah. Anything else? I hear you like parties.</s>ANNA: Well, I like to do magic so I can go to Hogwarts when I'm 11.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Oh, OK. That sounds good. OK. Well, Mark Oppenheimer, thank you for letting us talk to Anna and visit her and brighten up our day.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: She would have it no other way. She doesn't say no to invitations.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: When did you notice that your daughter is very outgoing? You mentioned that some of the other kids in the family, your wife, not so much.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: Right. So she's the fourth of our five children. And, you know, these categories are, obviously, kind of invented, right? No one human is everything. But our third daughter, who's now 8, is definitely a lot like my wife, which is to say she doesn't like big parties and doesn't like big crowds and gets easily overwhelmed. And Anna, who came three years after her, was exactly the opposite from a very young age. She just would always rush to crowds, greets people with hugs, loves parties. And it was obvious from the moment she had a personality that this was the personality she had.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, give an example if you would.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: Oh, sure. For one thing, there's - she doesn't like to leave the classroom until she's hugged a certain number of people in her kindergarten class (laughter). That's pretty typical of her. There was not long ago a party that she was invited to, and we were going to suggest that she skip the party because the child was someone whom she wasn't terribly fond of. They didn't have a great connection. And she said, but I want to go to the party. And we said, well, you don't even like so-and-so that much. And she said, well, that's true, but I love parties.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: So that's - her attitude on life is that it doesn't really matter whose party it is. It's a party.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: She's very self-aware. It seems like that. Anna, you like people a lot, right?</s>ANNA: Yeah.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah. How come do you think that? Why do you think you like people so much?</s>ANNA: Because, well, I only like certain people. I only like people that are nice to me.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Really? Well...</s>ANNA: Yeah.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Because your dad was telling a story once about how you walked up to people. And you try to say hi to them, and they don't say hi back.</s>ANNA: Well, I probably would tap them on the shoulder. If they just didn't like that and still didn't answer, I'd probably just walk away and ask my dad if they would help me get them. And if that person still didn't like it, I just, well, go away because they probably didn't want to be bothered.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter) Why do you think it is that some people don't want to be friends? Or what do you think that is? Are some people shy, and you're just not shy? What do you think that is?</s>ANNA: Not shy person, I would probably say. But I would not say that I just ran into crowds giving people hugs. I would not say that. I would probably say - I would probably go to crowds, yeah. Maybe that's true. I'd probably wouldn't say that I hug people a lot.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>ANNA: And I'd probably say that I just talk to people a lot.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Exactly. Mark, your piece is very funny, and I understood what you're saying about how, you know, we're in a moment where there's sort of a something in this argument that there's something better about introverts but you have, also, a deeper point about the message you think society is sending to girls who are extroverts. Could you talk a little bit about that?</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: Yeah. I mean it's very hard to read some of the pro-introvert literature (laughter) without getting the sense that what's being exalted is a certain kind of quiet and reserve and what is often referred to - especially with girls - as poise. And that seems like code for don't be too exuberant. Don't put yourself out there too much. Don't be too loud. Don't be too in your face.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: And so the flip side of that is, what if you're a girl coming up in the world who likes being loud and exuberant and in people's faces? I think there's lots of wonderful ways people can be. But we're in a moment where you're reading a lot of books. I mean, the airport bookstores are filled with business guides saying, hire the person who is really quiet. And that has its own kind of prejudice that - you know, that I think does have a cost.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: What have you come to about Anna? Like, what advice are you giving her about how to manage that?</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: Yeah, I want her to be her. And I think the world is going to, you know, have to deal, you know? I'll give you an example. About three summers ago, she walked up to an older woman on the playground and just introduced herself and said hi and started chatting. And the woman turned to me with this kind of spiteful look and said, you have to teach her not to talk to strangers. And I thought, well, I actually think it's great to talk to strangers.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: I think we need to talk to people we don't know more. And we need to walk up to people more often and break down barriers and get to know them. And so I would, in a million years, not counsel her not to talk to strangers. I think people need to do more of that. I think she's kind of a role model for me.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, that's a very good thought there. So let's say - I want to say goodbye to Anna. Anna, do you have any thoughts for people who are maybe not as bold as you are about talking to people that they don't already know? Do you have any advice for people who are shy?</s>ANNA: Well, I think I already know a person that doesn't like talking to people as much as me. Megan (ph), right. That's her name, Megan.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: And what's your advice for her? Like, would you be able to teach her how to talk to people better?</s>ANNA: Well, I don't think I could do that. People can't change their opinions. She's shy. I can't change that she's shy. I think if I could change her, I probably wouldn't. People don't change the way they act...</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, that's a very good point (laughter).</s>ANNA: ...That she's shy. And I don't think she should change it.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, thank you. That's Mark Oppenheimer. And his daughter, Anna, joined us from their home in New Haven, Conn. Mark Oppenheimer wrote a piece called "How To Raise An Extroverted Child In A World That Loves Introverts." He wrote that for The Washington Post, and he also hosts a podcast on Jewish identity called Unorthodox. They joined us from New Haven. Mark Oppenheimer, Anna, thank you both so much for talking to us.</s>MARK OPPENHEIMER: You're welcome.</s>ANNA: You're welcome. |
Washington Post fashion critic Robin Givhan tells NPR's Michel Martin that the MAGA (Make America Great Again) hat is not a fashion statement as much as a statement of identity. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. Let's talk some more about the hat. You know which one I'm talking about - the red Make America Great Again hat, the MAGA hat. Why is the hat such a big deal? Washington Post fashion and culture critic Robin Givhan has been thinking about that. And she's with us now in our studios in Washington, D.C. Welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us.</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Thank you.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You wrote a whole column about the MAGA hat. You said that the Make America Great Again hat is not a statement of policy anymore. It's a declaration of identity. So, first of all, why do you say that? And what is that identity?</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Well, I mean, I think the MAGA hat, you know, did start out as a - you know, as sort of innocuous political swag. And then it came to represent, you know, the Trump administration, the Trump campaign. And people who were wearing it I think were, at that point, focused on various policy ideas, whether it was tax cuts or a point of view when it comes to foreign policy or immigration. But I think what happened is that the hat was essentially kidnapped, weaponized by Charlottesville and by white supremacists and by the violence that went on in some of those rallies by a minority of people at those rallies.</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: But that hat came to I think, in the broader culture, start to represent a lot of really dark forces. And it has come to represent, also, this idea of making America great again as in, oh, it once was great in some distant past. And things happened to make it less great.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So political figures have used fashion to make statements before, like Hillary Clinton had the blue pantsuits that then became the white pantsuits because that's something that the suffragists wore. And even though Barack Obama wasn't really known for his fashion, I mean, there were symbols associated with him that people made into fashion. Like, the Shepard Fairey "Hope" poster was a thing for a while...</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Right.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is it your contention that this is at a different level, it has some broader cultural meaning apart from the political figure itself?</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Yeah. I mean, I do think it's different from those things because - the groups and attitudes and sensibilities and moods that it's associated with. And I think, you know, there is this notion that simply because you put on the hat means that, you know, you are all these terrible things. And I don't necessarily think that is the case. And I don't think most people presume that to be the case. But I do think that there's this sense that if you put on that hat, you are knowingly shrouding yourself in something that has all of these dark connotations and, in knowingly doing that, that implies that you're OK with it.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is that symbolism, in your view, equally understood by those who wear it and by those who receive it or see it?</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Sometimes not, sometimes it does. I mean, you know, I think, you know, you can look back in - at much darker periods in history, you know? And there are those who might argue that, oh, I'm wearing this because I'm a history buff. But the broader culture at large knows what it means, historically.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, you draw the analogy to the Confederate flag.</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Right.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, you say that - in your column, you say that to wear a MAGA hat is to wrap oneself in a Confederate flag, which you also see as a provocation. Now, along those same lines, there are plenty of people who will say, no, it's not. It's a reflection of history. It's a reflection of Southern heritage. It's not meant to be provocative or racist. And to that, would you say, are these people just not willing to be honest about what they're trying to say?</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Yeah, I would say that. I mean, I think that if you are making this argument that it is purely a matter of celebrating history, then you have to I believe also recognize the full breadth of that history. And so you can't wear something like a Confederate flag or wave a Confederate flag and say that it only represents this tiny sliver of history when, in fact, there is this really broad history, the bulk of which is pretty negative, at least for a pretty large group of people of color, that, you know - you have to recognize that that is part of the story that you're telling.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So tell me a little bit more about what reaction you're getting to the column.</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Yeah. I mean, I would say that the reaction is as polarizing as the hat is. The people who agreed with the column are very vocal in expressing that. And then there are people who simply say that, oh, you're reading way too much into the hat, or you, in fact, are a racist because this is what you see in that hat. But I would say that the ones who are perhaps most eloquent in their - the defense of the hat really are the ones who are saying the dark terrible things that you described, do not reflect what's in my heart, do not reflect how I feel about immigrants or how I feel about women, you know?</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: They still feel that the hat is representative of something that goes directly to how they think their government should be run. And, you know, and I say to them that, yes, I understand what your intent is. My argument is that that benign intent has been drowned out, overwhelmed, eradicated by quite a malignant intent.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, it proves your point, once again, that fashion isn't just fashion. Fashion is communication and culture, right?</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Yeah. And it's not simply what you are trying to communicate. It's also - you know, fashion is connected to the broader culture, and all of those outside forces change the meaning of what you wear.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's Washington Post fashion and culture critic Robin Givhan, the Pulitzer Prize-winner joining us in our studios in Washington, D.C. Thank you so much for joining us.</s>ROBIN GIVHAN: Pleasure. |
NPR's Michel Martin talks with guests Eric Liu, author of You're More Powerful Than You Think; Dani Tucker, a fitness instructor affected by the shutdown; and venture capitalist Nick Hanauer. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to talk more about this in the Barbershop. Now, that's where we invite interesting people to talk about what's in the news and what's on their minds. And we wanted to dig in on a couple of things that this shutdown has made painfully clear. One - there are many misperceptions about federal workers, and two, some of the wealthiest Americans, including a few in this administration, have no clue about how the other 99.9 percent of the country lives.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Now, this was a epitomized by comments commerce secretary Wilbur Ross made on CNBC on Thursday. He said he didn't understand why some federal workers had to go to shelters for food. And he said he didn't understand why people didn't just take out loans. And here's Trump's daughter-in-law Lara offering a take that struck many as clueless.</s>LARA TRUMP: Listen, this is - it's not fair to you. And we all get that. But this is so much bigger than any one person. It is a little bit of pain, but it's going to be for the future of our country.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, obviously, to a lot of people, it's more than a little bit of pain. But we wanted to talk more about this gap between the super wealthy and everybody else. And it's been an issue for some time, but it's being amplified, as we said, by the recent shutdown and also by the political environment, both the election that was just held and the one coming up. Newly-elected representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has called for a 70 percent tax rate on earnings above $10 million. And the Democratic senator Elizabeth Warren, who's announced she's exploring a run for president, has proposed a tax on the assets of the super rich.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So we thought this would be a good time to bring together three people who've been thinking about this knowledge gap and the income gap. Here with me in the studio is Dani Tucker. She's a fitness instructor in Washington, D.C. And we've spoken with her many times in the past about issues facing working people, especially single moms.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome back.</s>DANI TUCKER: Thank you for having me.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Joining us from Seattle, Eric Liu, author of "You're More Powerful Than You Think: A Citizen's Guide To Making Change Happen" and a foreign policy adviser to President Bill Clinton.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome back to you as well, Eric.</s>ERIC LIU: Great to be with you.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick Hanauer is a tech investor, a frequent commentator on income inequality and a vocal advocate for a $15 an hour federal minimum wage. And he was the first non-family investor in Amazon, so he doesn't mind telling you that he's on the fortunate side of the wealth gap. And he's with us from Montana.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick Hanauer, thanks so much to you as well for coming in.</s>NICK HANAUER: Thank you.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So I'm just going to start by asking each of you, what struck you most about the comments that you heard from Wilbur Ross, from the president and from Lara Trump about this? And, Dani, why don't you start? And try not to let your head explode because...</s>DANI TUCKER: (Laughter).</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: I know you have a lot of thoughts about this.</s>DANI TUCKER: What - I mean, you know, that's not my circus, and those ain't my clowns. That's what we thought, like we always think every time we watch TV. Because it's the man that's in contentment going to give his - you know, to say it about the man that's in despair. You can't do that. You've never been there, so you can't speak. How come I can't walk into a bank? Because I walk into a bank, they see a burden. You walk into a bank, they see a blessing - big difference. They see your name, they know they're going to get their money back. They see me - you've got to go. You ain't got - you don't have anything to offer.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You had very specific effects from the shutdown even though you don't work for the federal government.</s>DANI TUCKER: Oh, most...</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tell me about that.</s>DANI TUCKER: I'm a fitness instructor. I read about Mr. Hanauer. How're you doing? And he has a business. He's a gazillionaire. Nice to meet you. I'm a fitness instructor for seven years. My - his business - you know, does things and makes money. My business is a way for people to get healthy that can't afford it. So for seven years, I've saw a loss. I depended on this season. OK?</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you get most of your business at the beginning of the year.</s>DANI TUCKER: Became a shelter, OK? So the money that I was supposed to make there, pay bills - I've got, you know, kids in college, (unintelligible) - I couldn't get that because my federal government's - workers are not working. My contract workers are not working. The people that work for companies who need stuff from the federal government can't get it, so they're not working.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So normally, at this time of year, you'd have maybe 80 people per class.</s>DANI TUCKER: Yeah, 80 to 100 - this is my Super Bowl.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And so...</s>DANI TUCKER: ...Need this money.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And so how many have you been having?</s>DANI TUCKER: Twenty.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Twenty - so...</s>DANI TUCKER: And not just 20, but then I've had to collect food for 80. So now I've given you my rent money because here's the thing. Today is the day, and a way needs to be made. That's what they don't consider when he's sitting on Congress talking about policy, talking about walls. Oh, you're going to suffer a little bit, so - but you're - in the long run, it's going to help the country. I don't need the country right now. I need right now for them to come to class, but they can't. But they need to eat, and I'm the only one with money. And this is my rent money, so this is what we're going to. Right now, we're going to pull this in, and we're going to take care of this need, and we'll worry about my rent later.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: I hear you. I hear you. Nick and Eric, what struck you most? Maybe Eric, why don't you start? What struck you most about what you heard?</s>ERIC LIU: Well, I mean, first of all, there's just the obvious, colossal sense of being out of touch. But I think there's a deeper problem going on here. You know, there was a headline last year about a study that said that four out of 10 Americans would not be able to make an emergency payment of $400 if if the need arose. And at the time, it got a little bit of attention in the news, and then we went on with our lives.</s>ERIC LIU: And what this administration did with this shutdown was basically to run a nationwide scaled experiment in real life. What would happen when lots of working people, lots of middle-class people, would stop getting paid for 35 days? And not just the ways in which they would suffer, but the ways, as Dani's talking about, the ripple effects, the second order effects that touch every neighboring business in a community? It goes out there. And I think what it highlights is that when you have the kind of severe, radical inequality that we have right now, not only is the middle class incredibly fragile but so is the legitimacy of the system itself, right?</s>ERIC LIU: When you hear Dani's voice talking about this, it's not just that this was a dumb shutdown. It's that there's this deep, deep sense that the game is rigged. And people have always assumed the game is kind of rigged. But when you have a Cabinet secretary like Wilbur Ross saying, you know, why can't you get a loan? Why can't you just go - you know, ride it out here? It adds insult to injury. It's not just that the game is rigged, but it's rigged by the very people in the cabinet right now of such great means that they are completely out of touch with the experience of trying to make ends meet.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick, what struck you about it?</s>NICK HANAUER: Yeah. Well, I mean, I - you know, I substantially agree with Eric. You know, that - I think just to level set on how unequal our society has become - you know, the median family in America today earns about $59,000 a year. If they had been held harmless by rising inequality since 1980, they'd earn about $86,000 a year. If the median family had fully participated in productivity gains since 1980, they would earn $101,000 a year. And that gap is why people are so appropriately angry and so obviously economically fragile. And...</s>NICK HANAUER: So - go ahead.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah. No - yeah.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: One of the things I was going to ask you is, though, is it - is this - and this goes to the question I was going to ask you. From your vantage point, is it that the system is the problem, or is it the people in these roles should maybe take a seat? Because I'm reminded of the fact that - you know, Franklin Roosevelt was very wealthy, but he understood the problems of working people. So...</s>NICK HANAUER: Yeah.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So is it the - is the problem policy, or is the problem personnel?</s>NICK HANAUER: Oh, you know, it's a mixture of both. And those two things are inextricably intertwined. We obviously live in an age framed by trickle-down economics and neoliberalism. And certainly, Donald Trump, if he thinks anything in that thick brain, thinks that the richer the rich get, the better one - everyone else will be. And certainly, that's the view of Wilbur Ross. Obviously, swapping those two clowns out for better, smarter and more empathetic people would be good. But, you know, I think, in my own opinion, the deeper problem is not personnel. It is policy and our understanding of what it is that makes the economy go. Because even in the Obama administration, people were unwilling to go as far as we needed to to solve these problems because they were imprisoned by neoliberalism.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. So let me just - in the three minutes we have left, I'm going to ask each of you, as briefly as you can, what should happen now in your view? And maybe, Eric, you want to start?</s>ERIC LIU: Well, I think what we should take note of is that this shutdown didn't end just because insiders in D.C. were feeling the pain. They were feeling the pain because we were in this moment over these last 35 days of an incredible surge of bottom-up citizen power. People were organizing - not just activists on the progressive left who were calling congress members and so forth but actually workers. You think about the air traffic controllers in LaGuardia and around the East Coast who essentially - they didn't strike, but they kind of sat it out, and they started sending a signal of, if this keeps going, we can make things worse.</s>ERIC LIU: And you think about the ways in which everyday neighbors and friends and - who are connected by family or other ties to the people who were furloughed over these 35 days started organizing to support their friends and neighbors. We saw a surge of people pulling together in a way that made me somewhat hopeful that whoever is in the administration, we have a possibility here of labor flexing its muscle again, of activists getting off the sidelines and people realizing they've got to speak up if they don't want the game to stay rigged and everyday folks looking at each other and realizing, I can't just let my neighbor not make rent this week. I've got to do like Dani did and actually turn my fitness studio into a place that can serve meals and put people up. And that's a silver lining for me out of this shutdown.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Dani, what do you want to see happen now?</s>DANI TUCKER: I'm speaking to the people that have - that have a way, that have a financial way. Reach out to those of us that you are hearing on these shows and be able to provide financial help. We know the people that need it, including ourselves. Because them clowns down there are not going to do anything. We're going to be back here in three weeks - know this. We're going to be back here in three weeks because the narcissist - he just can't understand. OK? So forget them, OK? Work with us. We're making a way. You've seen it all over the news where we're feeding and we're turning our businesses into that and that. If you have a financial way to help us, and you don't mind doing that, reach out to us and do that because that's what we need. We need money.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK.</s>DANI TUCKER: That's what we need.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick, very briefly, what do you think should happen now?</s>NICK HANAUER: Yeah. People have to push back against all this - all the trickle-down lies, all this nonsense about, you know, the richer the rich get, the better off everyone will be. People need to lean into OAC's policy proposal to tax great wealth at 70 percent, Elizabeth Warren's idea of a wealth tax on huge fortunes. These are good ideas that will not harm economic growth and will benefit the country.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you'd be willing to accept that yourself.</s>NICK HANAUER: Absolutely. Absolutely.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You'd be willing to take that big haircut.</s>NICK HANAUER: (Laughter).</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. All right. That's Nick Hanauer, Eric Liu and Dani Tucker. Thank you all so much for talking to us. Obviously, much more to say about this topic.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks, you all, so much for talking to us.</s>DANI TUCKER: Thank you.</s>ERIC LIU: You bet.</s>NICK HANAUER: Thank you.</s>DANI TUCKER: Thank you, gentlemen. |
Various parts of the federal government are swinging back into action in the coming days, now that the partial government shutdown is over. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Now to the other major story we've been following - the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. The president and Congress finally reached a deal to reopen the government - at least, for the next three weeks. But as NPR's Shannon Van Sant reports, agencies that were closed for the 35-day shutdown might take some time to get back up to full speed.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: The Smithsonian and other museums and the National Zoo will reopen on Tuesday. While a third of the country's national parks were closed, some remained partially open during the shutdown. Kristen Brengel is a lobbyist for the National Parks Conservation Association.</s>KRISTEN BRENGEL: So now the staff are going to have to go back into the parks and look for damage, make sure things are OK, ensure that historic sites are still well-protected.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: Other agencies are making plans as well. The IRS will rush to prepare for tax season. But some projects backed by grants and loans under the USDA's Rural Development Program may be delayed for months. Florida's Gulf Coast Children's Advocacy Center was granted $343,000 for a new facility to help child victims of rape and domestic abuse. The center's director, Lori Allen, says plans for construction have stalled.</s>LORI ALLEN: At this point, we're kind of at a standstill. We're really not sure what direction we need to go. And unfortunately, federal workers have been out of work for over a month.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: Even after the government reopens, impacts of the shutdown will continue to be felt. Brengel says the national parks have lost an estimated $15 million in ticket fee revenue. That goes towards paying for repairs and educational programs.</s>KRISTEN BRENGEL: That $15 million has pretty much evaporated, so that will hurt some parks going into the summer season if they had projects that they had teed up.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: Parks will also have to hurry to hire seasonal employees like rangers and law enforcement, a process which normally begins early in January.</s>KRISTEN BRENGEL: This shutdown can possibly result in having very damaging impacts on the spring and summer season if they can't get these folks hired in the next couple of weeks.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: The White House says federal workers will receive backpay in the coming days, though it's not certain exactly when they can expect their checks. The shutdown's effects have been felt in the private sector as well. John Arensmeyer is the head of advocacy group Small Business Majority.</s>JOHN ARENSMEYER: I think what we've learned from this shutdown is how the ripple effects of this - how widespread they are and how important it is that we keep in mind that there are many, many hundreds of thousands, millions of lives at stake for seemingly small decisions by the government. And we really can't have this happen again.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: The longest shutdown in U.S. history is over, but for many, a long and difficult process of recovery has just begun.</s>SHANNON VAN SANT, BYLINE: Shannon Van Sant, NPR News, Washington. |
The controversy involving a Catholic high school group from Kentucky has underlined racial and political divisions in the country. It's exposing those tensions within the Catholic church as well. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We'd like to return to that controversy surrounding the Catholic high school group from Kentucky. It's underlined racial and political divisions in this country. While in Washington, D.C., earlier this month for the anti-abortion March for Life, the group was filmed wearing Make America Great Again hats. They engaged in a confrontation with a Native American man and members of a group known as the black Hebrew Israelites. That episode and the explosive reaction to it is also exposing tensions within the Catholic Church regarding support for President Trump. NPR's Sarah McCammon reports from Covington.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: For Bishop John Stowe, the controversy that has erupted in recent days around the boys from Covington Catholic High School is raising bigger questions, not just about who's right and who's wrong in this complicated story.</s>JOHN STOWE: The image that it created did damage to the church.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Stowe leads the Catholic Diocese of Lexington, Ky., south of Covington. In an op-ed for The Lexington Herald-Leader, Stowe wrote he's dismayed by what he sees as, quote, "the association of our young people with racist acts and a politics of hate."</s>JOHN STOWE: And I think when you have a president now who, throughout his campaign, was demeaning of immigrants, was demeaning of women - to consider that as the person who's pro-life - I think it's problematic when we give him a pass on everything else because of those positions.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Stowe says Make America Great Again hats have no place at the March for Life. He says church teachings obligate Catholics to care for all life, including immigrants and refugees. But that message isn't going over well with some Catholics.</s>RANDALL TERRY: Show some dignity, Bishop. I know you can hear me. Show some courage.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Outside the Covington Catholic Diocese on Friday, longtime anti-abortion activist Randall Terry led a tiny band of protesters, who stood on the sidewalk carrying signs with statements like, Bishop Stowe, a wolf in sheep's clothing.</s>RANDALL TERRY: Stop playing politics with the church.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Terry has been known for decades for leading anti-abortion protests and, at times, blocking access to clinics. He says he's unhappy with Lexington Bishop Stowe and other local Catholic leaders who've promised an investigation into the incident. One of those leaders, the bishop in Covington, issued a letter later on Friday, apologizing for acting too quickly and suggesting he may have come down too harshly on the students. Wearing a Make America Great Again hat, Terry said the whole episode has demonized Trump supporters within the church.</s>RANDALL TERRY: This is all about the hat. That's why I'm wearing it. They want to paint everyone who supports President Trump as a racist, and that's just a lie. It's a damnable lie.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Terry lives in Memphis and is a Catholic convert. Some local Catholics here agree with him. Fred Summe is with Northern Kentucky Right to Life. He says he supports President Trump's policies on abortion and thinks that issue should be the top priority for Catholics.</s>FRED SUMME: Other issues we can reasonably disagree on, issues like how should we address the immigration situation, capital punishment, the environment. These are all issues that reasonable Catholic or Christian minds can differ.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Other Catholics here in Kentucky have a harder time finding candidates to align with their political beliefs. Jessica Heavrin (ph), who lives in Lexington, says she voted third party in 2016 because she opposes both abortion and many of Trump's policies. Heavrin says she's concerned about how the controversy around Covington Catholic High School reflects on her church.</s>JESSICA HEAVRIN: For anyone outside the faith looking in, they're thinking, well, you have a bunch of Catholic kids who are being taught in the Catholic school, and they're all wearing, you know, the Trump paraphernalia. What does that tell you? That the school is promoting and allowing that to happen.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: While Heavrin supports the goals of the March for Life, she says the image of the boys from Covington Catholic in their red Make America Great Again hats reflects poorly on the church and doesn't represent what she and many of her fellow Catholics believe.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Sarah McCammon, NPR News, Covington, Ky. |
NPR's Michel Martin interviews former federal prosecutor Seth Waxman about the significance of special counsel Robert Mueller's indictment of longtime Trump associate Roger Stone. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to start the program today by talking about the latest indictment from special counsel Robert Mueller's office. Yesterday, after an early morning raid by the FBI, Mueller charged longtime Trump associate Roger Stone with obstruction of justice, making false statements to Congress and witness tampering. A few hours after his arrest, Stone said he intends to plead not guilty. And he said...</s>ROGER STONE: The charges today relate in no way to Russian collusion, WikiLeaks collaboration or any other illegal act in connection with the 2016 campaign.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was outside of the courthouse, as you might imagine. In a few minutes, we're going to tell you more about Roger Stone and where he fits into the political scene. But first, we want to focus on what exactly this indictment means. So once again, we've called former federal prosecutor Seth Waxman.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome back, Mr. Waxman. Thanks so much for joining us once again.</s>SETH WAXMAN: Thank you for having me.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So the special counsel charged Roger Stone with lying to Congress, obstruction of justice and witness tampering, but he didn't charge him with the underlying crime of conspiracy. I wanted to ask, what's your take on that? Because the indictment seems to contain plenty of evidence pointing to coordination between Stone and WikiLeaks.</s>SETH WAXMAN: Yeah. He clearly seems to - could have charged conspiracy. On its face, it's an obstruction, witness tampering, indictment. But from my view, this is really just another piece in the puzzle. And if you assume the underlying investigation is a check into the conspiracy, a potential conspiracy between the Russians and the Trump campaign to influence the 2016 election, this could be a - what we would call in the legal world an overt act in furtherance of that conspiracy.</s>SETH WAXMAN: In other words, if the Russians were offering dirt on Hillary Clinton in exchange for, say, a promise to reduce or eliminate sanctions on the Russians, then how that dirt got out into the public arena would be a part of that conspiracy, a overt act in furtherance of that conspiracy. So it seems that if Mueller ultimately brings a wider conspiracy case, this is one of the legs or prongs of that conspiracy that was part and parcel of the wider conspiracy. But it's not been charged as such at this time, obviously.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But can I just focus a little bit more on this? Would it be a crime for Roger Stone to have coordinated with WikiLeaks? I mean, WikiLeaks isn't Russia, and it's Russia that the special counsel has charged with hacking the Democratic email accounts and so forth.</s>SETH WAXMAN: Well, it could be. So, for example, this idea of a quid pro quo - of the Russians offering dirt on Hillary in exchange for a promise to reduce or eliminate sanctions on Russians - that would be a crime, a bribery scheme, for example. If Roger Stone knew about that scheme and intentionally acted in a way to facilitate that scheme by causing the Russians to work with WikiLeaks and the Trump campaign to work with WikiLeaks to get that dirt out into the public arena, and he did that knowingly and intentionally, he could be a part of that wider conspiracy.</s>SETH WAXMAN: On the other hand, if all he did - he had no idea about that underlying criminal conduct and was simply doing a favor, for example, for the Trump campaign, then no, he might not be. So it really goes to what his knowledge was and intent, like in many crimes.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: The indictment contains a paragraph alleging that an unnamed senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about additional WikiLeaks releases of stolen emails, and it doesn't say by whom. I was wondering what this suggests to you. I mean, does it suggest that the special counsel is closing in on someone very close to the president, somebody very senior?</s>SETH WAXMAN: Yeah, it sure seems that way, right? I mean, that's the phrase or paragraph in the indictment that raises the most questions and is kind of the most interesting to look at. And so it's one senior campaign official being directed by an even higher senior campaign official. And what we know about the campaign, there weren't - there just weren't that many people at the top of the ladder there.</s>SETH WAXMAN: So, you know, it's speculation as to - now as to who that is. But I think what we can clearly say is we've moved out of the world of speculation and into the world of clear evidence - that's - you know, the highest members of the Trump campaign were involved in this effort to get the dirt out through WikiLeaks.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So finally, before we let you go, do you have any sense, based on what we've seen so far, where the special counsel is headed from here?</s>ROGER STONE: Yeah. I mean, you know, this is a perfectly set up conspiracy investigation where you start low and work your way up the ladder to the highest rungs of that ladder. And we're clearly getting there, with Paul Manafort having been addressed, now Roger Stone having been addressed. It's my belief that the next step in which - maybe the final step is to look at Don Jr. and Jared Kushner, whether that's indictments for lying to Congress or dropping the wider conspiracy indictment and submitting a report to Congress.</s>ROGER STONE: So I think we're - you know, we're clearly heading towards the end, whether that means an additional month or two or three to six months. You know, it's just difficult to say from the outside, but we're clearly reaching the very top. And I think Bob Mueller's going to take a shot at flipping Roger Stone. You know, he'll issue indictments if he has a basis to against Jared Kushner and Don Jr.</s>ROGER STONE: And I think the only person left then is the president himself, and I'm of the opinion that he won't indict a sitting president. I'm also of the opinion that that's not a proper thing to do. I know there's very well-reasoned positions on the other side. But I think we are heading down the glide path to the end of this investigation in the terms of several months hopefully at most.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Seth Waxman, former federal prosecutor. He's currently a partner at the law firm of Dickinson Wright.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Mr. Waxman, thanks so much for talking to us once again.</s>SETH WAXMAN: Thank you for having me. |
A militant group aligned with ISIS has claimed responsibility for the bombing of a church in the southern Philippines that killed at least 20 people last weekend. Some experts believe the group will use the bombing as a tool for recruiting foreign fighters. | ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: The president of the Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte, got a firsthand look today at the devastation from a cathedral bombing in the southern city of Jolo. The explosion, during Sunday Mass, killed at least 20 people and wounded more than a hundred others. A militant group aligned with ISIS has claimed responsibility. Michael Sullivan has more on the group's troubled history in the region.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: In May 2017, fighters from the Abu Sayyaf and other ISIS-linked groups occupied much of the city of Marawi on the island of Mindanao. It took the Philippines' military five months to dislodge them and declare victory, leaving much of the city in ruins and many of the fighters dead - down but not out.</s>SIDNEY JONES: I think you can be very sure that what happened in Jolo is not the last gasp of a group on the edge of extinction.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: Sidney Jones is director of the Institute for Policy Analysis of Conflict in Jakarta, Indonesia.</s>SIDNEY JONES: I think you have to put this in the context of a lot of other pro-ISIS activity in Mindanao since the end of the Marawi siege.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: After that siege, she says, the authorities said that ISIS in the southern Philippines was defeated. But it wasn't. The coalition of groups involved dispersed into different areas, Jones says, but they didn't go away.</s>SIDNEY JONES: And there have been a persistent series of bombings in different parts of the Philippines of which this is the biggest.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: Including the first suicide bombing carried out by a foreigner last July that killed 10 people. Zachary Abuza, a professor at the National War College who tracks Southeast Asian terror groups, predicts Sunday's bombing will become a useful propaganda tool for ISIS to recruit more.</s>ZACHARY ABUZA: If you are a foreign fighter from Southeast Asia, you are now going to be more attracted to go into the Abu Sayyaf simply because they are demonstrating their ability to continue the fight.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: He says the timing of Sunday's attack - less than a week after an overwhelming majority of Muslims in the south voted for an autonomy plan aimed at ending decades of conflict - is no accident.</s>ZACHARY ABUZA: They're trying to provoke a heavy-handed government response that will, in turn, alienate the local community.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: And that kind of response, says Sidney Jones of the Institute for Policy Analysis of Conflict, would be a huge mistake - one that's been made before.</s>SIDNEY JONES: One of the worst tactics used by the Philippines government is the idea that you eradicate terrorism by killing those involved, not by understanding who's involved and not by trying to look at the network.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: Networks that show no sign of being shut down anytime soon. For NPR News, I'm Michael Sullivan in Bangkok. |
NPR's Ari Shapiro speaks with Chris Kolenda about possible roadblocks as the U.S., the Taliban, and the Afghan government work toward reaching an agreement on a U.S. exit strategy from Afghanistan. | ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: After 17 years of fighting in Afghanistan, the U.S. is looking for a way out. That involves trying to strike a deal between the Taliban and the Afghan government. Diplomats over the last decade have often tried and failed to get these two sides to agree. Now a U.S. delegate, Zalmay Khalilzad, is in Afghanistan, making another attempt. For more we're joined by Chris Kolenda. He is the only person to have both fought as a U.S. commander in Afghanistan and held diplomatic talks with the Taliban. Welcome to the studio.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: Ari, thank you very much for having me.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: So this envoy, Zalmay Khalilzad, started by meeting with the Taliban last week in Qatar. Now he's in Kabul, talking with the Afghan government. You know better than almost anyone how difficult it is to get these two sides to agree. Do you think there's anything different today from those past unsuccessful efforts?</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: I think there are a couple of things. The first one is the Taliban have said they're very concerned about their country becoming a second Syria, that because of all of the tensions in Afghanistan, the rise of ISIS and, of course, the ongoing war, they're worried that something like a disputed outcome to a presidential election could be the match that blows the powder keg up and creates a new level of chaos. Secondly, I think you've got a situation in which, at least from the U.S. and Taliban standpoint, one another is beginning to recognize or not object to the other's aims.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: So the Taliban have said repeatedly that they do not want Afghanistan to be a threat to its neighbors, which is code for no al-Qaida or international terrorist presence. They've also made positive statements about human rights for women and children and Afghans of all ethnicities. And at the same time, the - or the United States has said we have no interest in a permanent presence there. Then what you have is both sides not objecting to the war aims of the other. And that provides you a basis.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Sounds like you're optimistic that there actually could be an agreement here.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: I think there could be an agreement. The devil is going to be in the details, of course. And you want to avoid a situation in which the U.S. is making tangible commitments now in exchange for Taliban future commitments, which they could then backslide upon.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Women's rights and minority rights have come a long way in Afghanistan since the war started. Is there a concern that this kind of a deal could sacrifice some of those gains?</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: There's a lot of concern in Afghanistan, particularly among Afghan women. I'm very concerned that as we're hearing statements from Ambassador Khalilzad's team about what was discussed in Doha - we hear about the terrorism issue. We hear about the withdrawal issue. We're not hearing about human rights. The silence has been deafening on that. And I have to believe that over the course of six days, the issue of human rights was discussed. And I hope his team will update their talking points to address that issue because it's central to this conflict.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: We're talking as though a deal between the Taliban and the Afghan government is a prerequisite for the U.S. to leave Afghanistan. But why is that the case? Why can't the U.S. just say, we're done, and get out?</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: Well, you could have an Afghan withdrawal and 280 characters or less.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: A tweet.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: Right. And then I think what you'll see is the realization of everybody's worst fears, which is Afghanistan descending into this new level of chaos and an unmitigated humanitarian disaster.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Right now the U.S. is talking to the Afghan government and the Taliban. But those two groups aren't talking to each other.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: Right.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: That seems like a pretty big step that still has to be taken in order for any deal to be worked out.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: It's absolutely critical. And everybody recognizes that there will be no peace in Afghanistan until, ultimately, you have a conversation among Afghans about how they're going to live together with one another. The way that the Taliban have framed this peace process in their own minds is make an agreement with the Americans first because that's who they believe the main conflict is with. And after that, make an agreement with the Afghan government.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, HOST: Chris Kolenda is founder of the Kolenda Strategic Leaders Academy. He's participated in past peace talks with the Taliban. Thanks for joining us today.</s>CHRIS KOLENDA: Thank you, Ari. I appreciate being on the show. |
NPR's Michel Martin talks with Shaun Casey, director of Georgetown University's Berkley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs, about the theological debate over President Trump's proposed wall. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: We've been focusing very much these past few weeks on the impact of the government shutdown. But now that the government is more or less reopened, the conversation turns again to border security. Democrats, congressional Republicans and the president all say they agree that a border security package is necessary, but the disagreement comes over what that should look like. And some Democrats - most significantly, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi - have laid down a very specific marker on a wall, calling it an immorality.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So today and next week, we decided to engage that question with thinkers from different perspectives. First, we're going to hear from Shaun Casey, the founding director of the Office of Religion and Global Affairs at the State Department, appointed by former secretary of state John Kerry. He's now the director of the Berkeley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs at Georgetown University.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Professor Casey, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us.</s>SHAUN CASEY: It's great to be here. Thanks, Michel.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So Speaker Pelosi might be one of the most high-profile people to make the argument that the wall is immoral, but she isn't the only one. As briefly as you can, what's the basis of that view?</s>SHAUN CASEY: Well, I think it's in response to a view that says God wants the wall. In fact, it is divinely ordained. I don't think Speaker Pelosi would be making a moral argument here if it weren't for the fact that there are people out there saying no, God wants this wall.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: The issue of what it means to be displaced, to have your life disrupted by war or the whims of cruel rulers, is a very big part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. I mean, I'm thinking of - there are - you know, there are so many texts that offer comfort to people in exile. I'm thinking, like, Jeremiah's letter to the exiles, where he tells them not to lose hope and to - you know, be where they are and to prosper there because their day is coming. So those are a very big part of the tradition. But what about walls, per se? Do walls have some specific theological importance?</s>SHAUN CASEY: Well, the answer is no. In a sense, if you look at the entire biblical record from beginning to end, you see walls are just things. In some cases, they protect cities under siege. But there's no general principle that says every city deserves a wall, and God builds a wall around his or her chosen people. In fact, the Hebrew bible is a story of people on the move. From the very beginning, even out of the Garden of Eden, people are leaving. The Hebrew people are chosen by God because they are exiled. And that is, in fact, their entire story.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is in part the sort of a theological or spiritual or religious impetus for the Pelosi view that this is a rich country and that people who have more are required to offer comfort and shelter to people who have less - particularly people who are in dire distress?</s>SHAUN CASEY: I think it's even deeper than that. It's woven into the American DNA that we are and have been a location for the oppressed, those who flee persecution. You can come to America, enjoy the freedom. Now, that has not been unregulated, and no one is saying, let's have an open border. Let's let everybody come across who wants to. That's part of the diatribe against Pelosi. Oh, she's for an open border. All the Democrats want is an unrestricted access. And that's not true. I mean, that's just factually wrong.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: But if the argument is that a wall is an immorality, there are already points across the international border where physical barriers exist.</s>SHAUN CASEY: Right.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: So why, then, aren't the Democrats arguing for a dismantling of those physical barriers that already exist?</s>SHAUN CASEY: Contiguous walls do not exist. We do not have a continuous wall on either our northern border or our southern border. We let people cross under normal crossings. That's part of our generosity. That's part of our openness. Now, in the name of security, we do regulate it. But what the wall is about is keeping certain folks out. It's keeping Muslims out, allegedly. It's keeping rapist Mexicans out. So there's a lie, and that's part of the immorality that Pelosi sees - that the wall is being built for purposes that are less than explicit - to keep certain folks out.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: You know - and you've written certainly about this - that white evangelical Christians have become some of the president's most ardent supporters. Presumably, they read the same texts that you do and that Nancy Pelosi does. Why do you think that people see this so differently?</s>SHAUN CASEY: Well, I think there are different schools of interpretation, there are different biblical interpretive practices. Like, the classic example is when then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions invoked Romans 13.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK, tell people what Romans 13 says...</s>SHAUN CASEY: So...</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...For those who don't know.</s>SHAUN CASEY: Romans 13 says that God has given government authorities to rule. Now, some of President Trump's evangelical advisory board says, well, there you have it. The most famous one is Robert Jeffress, the pastor, who says, that gives the government the authority to do whatever, whether it's assassination, capital punishment or evil punishment to quell evildoers like Kim Jong Un. That is a deeply held worldview in certain pockets within the evangelical world - that if you make it to the top of a political scrapheap in a country, God put you there.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: How do you think religiously committed people in the U.S. are confronting this issue of the wall?</s>SHAUN CASEY: Well, I think there is a minority of American Christians - they're overwhelmingly white. They're overwhelmingly Republican. They're overwhelmingly influenced by this sort of ragtag group of folk, you know, on the evangelical advisory board the White House has - who are going to endorse any kind of strongman move the president makes because ultimately, a passage like Romans 13 and this very strict, narrow misinterpretation of it authorizes that view.</s>SHAUN CASEY: Now, when Bill Clinton was president, when Barack Obama was president, they were not cut the kind of political slack that is being cut towards Mr. Trump today. So the selective enforcement, the selective observation of this theological principle is to be telling. They can't apply it consistently across just even the last 10, 15 years in states. That's a minority phenomenon. I think most American Christians are somewhere between. They're not taking this alleged literal interpretation of Romans to the bank every day. And where you find this view very deep and very strong is in a certain select segment of white evangelicalism today.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's Shaun Casey. He directs the Berkeley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs at Georgetown University. He formerly was the founding director of the Office of Religion and Global Affairs at the State Department. He was kind enough to join us in our studios in Washington, D.C.</s>MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Professor Casey, thanks so much for talking to us.</s>SHAUN CASEY: You're welcome. Great to be here. |
U.S. diplomats are facing a weekend deadline to leave Venezuela, on orders of the embattled president. Meanwhile, the U.S. is trying to rally international support around their preferred leader. | MICHEL MARTIN, HOST: Venezuela is in the midst of a tense political standoff as two men claim to be the country's leader. Earlier this week, opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself the country's president. Meanwhile, the current president, Nicolas Maduro, refuses to step aside. The U.S. is trying to bolster Guaido's claim to power. Today, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was at the United Nations Security Council pushing countries to recognize him and declare Nicolas Maduro's presidency illegitimate, saying now is the time to pick sides. NPR's Michele Kelemen has this report.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Secretary Pompeo says the U.N. Security Council meeting was long overdue. He described what he calls scenes of misery that are now the norm in Venezuela thanks to, quote, "Nicolas Maduro's socialist experiment."</s>MIKE POMPEO: We're here because Maduro has reduced ordinary Venezuelans who once lived in prosperity to rooting through dumpsters to find something to eat.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Russia's ambassador argued that the security council is supposed to discuss threats to peace and security, not the internal matters of member states. Vasily Nebenzia tried, but failed to block today's debate.</s>VASILY NEBENZIA: (Through interpreter). The meeting which we are being forced to be present is another element of the strategy of the United States to effect regime change in Venezuela. We regret that in this an ethical ploy, the United States is involving the security council.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Secretary Pompeo blasted Russia, as well as Iran, Syria, Cuba and others for supporting what he calls Maduro's mafia state.</s>MIKE POMPEO: It's not a surprise that those who rule without democracy in their own countries are trying to prop up Maduro while he is in dire straits, nor are these countries supporting international norms as they cynically claim. China and Russia are propping up a failed regime in the hopes of recovering billions of dollars in ill-considered investments and assistance made over the years.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Venezuela's foreign minister accused the U.S. of leading a coup, but said his country is open to talks with the Trump administration. Russia's ambassador said U.S. officials are using, quote, "Bolshevik-style statements" about disconnecting the Maduro regime from its sources of revenue. Russia's ambassador is also questioning whether the Trump administration is preparing military options. Secretary Pompeo wouldn't address that, but did issue a stark warning to Venezuelan security forces about U.S. Embassy personnel in Caracas.</s>MIKE POMPEO: Do not test the United States in our resolve to protect our own people.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: The U.S. has brought home family members and nonessential personnel, but Pompeo says the U.S. Embassy will remain open despite Maduro's decision to break off ties. Michele Kelemen, NPR News, Washington. |
Felix Tshisekedi was declared winner of the long-delayed presidential election in the Democratic Republic of the Congo — amid suggestions of vote-rigging. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: In Democratic Republic of Congo, the provisional result of a long-awaited presidential election had hardly been announced and the outcome was contested. The election commission declared one opposition frontrunner, Felix Tshisekedi, the winner of a vote on December 30. Another opposition contender says those results were rigged. NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton reports from Kinshasa that this vote was supposed to herald Congo's first democratic and peaceful transfer of power.</s>CORNEILLE NANGAA: (Speaking French).</s>UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: (Cheering).</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: After a long night of waiting, Congo's embattled election chief Corneille Nangaa eventually declared the provisional winner of the highly anticipated presidential vote.</s>CORNEILLE NANGAA: Monsieur Tshisekedi (unintelligible)...</s>UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: (Cheering).</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Felix Tshisekedi is the son of Congo's historic, late opposition leader, Etienne Tshisekedi, who died in 2017 after being an implacable critic of first former president Mobutu Sese Seko, then Laurent-Desire Kabila and his son, outgoing President Joseph Kabila. But Tshisekedi Junior appears to have succeeded where his father failed by winning that elusive presidency.</s>PRESIDENT-ELECT FELIX TSHISEKEDI: (Speaking French).</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Addressing his supporters in Kinshasa, Tshisekedi said the voters had spoken and promised to govern for all Congolese. Fifty-five-year-old Felix Tshisekedi spent much of his life in Belgium, the former colonial power in Congo, and is considered a political novice by his detractors, despite holding high office in his father's opposition party and being propelled into the leadership after Etienne Tshisekedi's death. The son now looks set to take over from outgoing President Kabila with whom observers say Felix Tshisekedi has negotiated a backdoor deal.</s>MARTIN FAYULU: (Speaking French).</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: That's the view of fellow opposition presidential frontrunner Martin Fayulu, who came in second after Tshisekedi. Fayulu says the outcome was fixed and Tshisekedi has been co-opted to cook up an acceptable replacement that suits Kabila, whose preferred candidate trailed in third place.</s>MARTIN FAYULU: (Speaking French).</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: A furious Fayulu has denounced what he describes as a scandalous, electoral coup - rigged, fabricated and invented, he says, which fails to reflect the truth of the ballots. Fayulu says voters have been robbed of victory and democracy. He looks poised to formally challenge the results.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Meanwhile, Fayulu is calling on election monitors, including Congo's influential Catholic bishops conference, which fielded thousands of observers, to publish what he says are the real results. The bishops announced last week that their observations indicated a clear winner and warned the election commission to ensure its results reflected the will of the Congolese people.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: While many Congolese are celebrating the presumed victory of Felix Tshisekedi, many others question whether he can be his own man and steer vast, mineral-rich Congo away from its reputation for corruption, kleptocracy and rampant cronyism. Others, though, are holding their breath and praying that whatever happens, peace will prevail. Ofeibea Quist-Arcton, NPR News, Kinshasa. |
Steve Inskeep talks to Ali Shihabi, the founder of the Arabia Foundation and an ally of Saudi leaders, about Saudi Arabia's role in the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: Eleven Saudi men are on trial for the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who disappeared after walking into a Saudi consulate in Istanbul. A man close to the Saudi government is trying to explain the government's conduct. Ali Shihabi is founder of the Arabia Foundation, a Washington, D.C., think tank that aims to provide a better picture of the Saudi monarchy. And he spoke to Steve Inskeep.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: After Jamal Khashoggi was killed, Shihabi, on social media, was one of the few public defenders of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The de facto Saudi leader is blamed by U.S. intelligence agencies for the killing but has not been accused by his own government. Shihabi answered a long-standing invitation to come by our studios. He has short hair and black-rimmed glasses and wears a blazer. He says he knew Khashoggi, both in Saudi Arabia and later when both lived in Washington. And he did not agree with the journalist's criticisms of the Saudi government.</s>ALI SHIHABI: It was a little bit playing to what he thought the American audience in Washington wanted to hear. I think he understood the nuances of what were happening in Saudi Arabia much more than he let on in his columns.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: You don't believe he was honest in his criticism of the government?</s>ALI SHIHABI: Well, no, I think he was honest in his criticism of the government, but I think that he underplayed some of the complexities that he was part of. You remember, you have to remember that Jamal was an editor of a Saudi government paper, effectively, owned by the royal family. So he was, if you want, an apparatchik in the system. But I think he underplayed the challenges that the crown prince had to overcome.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Are we learning here why he would have so irritated someone in Saudi Arabia because he would be seen as an insider, someone who had been part of the system then criticizing the system?</s>ALI SHIHABI: He didn't really irritate people that much. He was not a threat. I think as this thing is being investigated, what happens sometimes is elements in the security service or people who are responsible for internal security tend to magnify issues. And there was an overreaction to it, and obviously, it was a criminal overreaction 'cause ultimately...</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: If you'll forgive me - there are overreactions, and there overreactions.</s>ALI SHIHABI: Well, it's a criminal overreaction.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: This case, according to a Turkish newspaper, 15 Saudi officials, 15 Saudi government functionaries, gathered to assassinate a man and cut him apart with a bone saw. I mean, this is not, like - it's hard to believe that he wasn't considered a severe problem by someone.</s>ALI SHIHABI: No. He was considered a severe problem by someone. And I said it was a criminal overreaction. And I think what's happening in Saudi Arabia now is there is a serious investigation going on, and the Turks have not been helpful because the Saudi prosecutor has been asking, for example, for the recordings. The Turks have been releasing leaks right, left and center.</s>ALI SHIHABI: They've given the Saudi prosecutors the transcripts, but they have not given them the recordings. And the Saudi government is trying to make an effort to pursue a proper legal process. People don't seem to take that with a lot of credibility, if they're trying.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Well, why should people consider that credible when it is a private process? It's not a transparent process in any way. We're told that some people are being put on trial. We don't even know the names of the people put on trial.</s>ALI SHIHABI: Well, because under Saudi law, again - you know, you want people to respect the rule of law, but you don't bother to find out what that country's law is. Under Saudi law, unless you are convicted, your name does not get published. Now, having said that, foreign ambassadors were invited to the courtroom to watch the beginning of the trial. So...</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: The beginning.</s>ALI SHIHABI: ...The Saudi government is making an effort to pursue a credible legal process, to document it correctly, to get the correct evidence under Saudi law.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: You've said that the Saudi prosecutor's not been supplied with the tapes. But, of course, Americans have heard the tapes. The CIA has heard the tapes. The CIA has briefed the United States Senate. The Senate voted unanimously, if I'm not mistaken, to condemn Saudi Arabia. And senators have identified the Saudi crown prince as responsible. Can you give us any reasonable doubt that Mohammed bin Salman would have been involved in such a large and sophisticated operation?</s>ALI SHIHABI: Yes, I can. Because first of all, the CIA gave a medium-to-high assessment that they thought the crown prince was involved. And as I've said before, with all due respect to the CIA, maybe their understanding of what happens in the inner, inner sanctums of the royal palace is isn't perfect.</s>ALI SHIHABI: Yes, I think they were authorized to go and interrogate him and maybe to bring him back or to try and bring him back. But it was an operation that was carried, in a way, off the grid. In other words, it was not carried out by the professional elements within Saudi intelligence. It was a team put together from different parts of the security services...</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Including some people close to the crown prince, if I'm not mistaken.</s>ALI SHIHABI: People who have been pictured physically close to the crown prince because they're part of the security services. It's like taking a picture of a Secret Service officer next to President Trump and saying President Trump was involved because this gentleman happens to be close to the president.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Even before Khashoggi was killed...</s>ALI SHIHABI: Yes.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: ...He felt, in order to speak as he wished and be safe, he needed to be outside of Saudi Arabia.</s>ALI SHIHABI: Yes.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Is it right that it should be so?</s>ALI SHIHABI: No. But the kingdom is going through a wrenching process of cultural, social and religious reform.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Is it moving toward freedom of speech?</s>ALI SHIHABI: Well, it has - freedom of speech has actually been contracting for the last two years because during this process, which is very contentious, and particularly when you are taking on a reactionary conservative class and religious establishment, a lot of the things that the crown prince has done - not just allowing women to drive, but integrating women into the labor force - so much has happened to quote-unquote "liberalize" society that has been fought extremely aggressively by the religious class. And we have seen what happened to other people who have tried to address the conservative class in the Middle East and have been overthrown.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: You're trying to explain to me why political activists have been arrested even in this period of supposed reform?</s>ALI SHIHABI: Yes, because it's not political reform. It is social. It's cultural. It's economic. And it's an interpretation of religion. For example, everybody's complained about exporting Wahhabism. Right? That Saudi Arabia exports Wahhabism. He has taken a baseball bat to that process in the last two years.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: But there are also been more liberal activists within the country who've been arrested, right?</s>ALI SHIHABI: Yes, there have. There have. And I think, you know, one of the big mistakes that I think the government did was arresting many of these women. And I anticipate that over the next number of months, a number of these - particularly, women - dissidents will be let out of jail.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Ali Shihabi, thanks for coming by.</s>ALI SHIHABI: Thank you, Steve, for inviting me.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, BYLINE: Ali Shihabi heads the Arabia Foundation, which is linked with the Saudi government and based in Washington. |
Steve Inskeep talks to commentator Cokie Roberts, who answers listener questions about the history of the United States and Russia exchanging accused spies. | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The arrest of American Paul Whelan on espionage charges in Russia has raised a question - how to get him out. Sometimes an accused spy there is traded for an accused spy in the United States. Possibly the most famous such exchange between those two countries is described in this old movie newsreel.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: In 1957, convicted Russian spy Rudolf Abel was sentenced to 30 years, escaping the death penalty after his attorney argued that the United States might want to swap Abel for an American at some future time. Now, Abel has been exchanged for U-2 pilot Gary Powers.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That swap, dramatized in the more recent movie "Bridge Of Spies," was one of many in history. We've put your questions about this practice to commentator Cokie Roberts, who joins us every week to answer your questions about how politics and the government work. Hi there, Cokie.</s>COKIE ROBERTS, BYLINE: Hi, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Now, let's hear our first question.</s>CHRIS MOORE: This is Chris Moore in Lake Worth, Fla. Is there usually some degree of parity in the value of the spies being swapped? Or have the swaps more typically been asymmetrical? And if they have been, which country has more often been on the short end of the stick?</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Wow, it's, like, a chess metaphor. Do you trade a rook for a bishop, a knight for a queen?</s>COKIE ROBERTS, BYLINE: (Laughter) Well, that's right. And you can get a lot of arguments going on here about that. The answer is often, of course, viewed through a political lens, as in conservatives will accuse Democratic administrations of getting the short end of a swap. That happened in 2010 under Obama when the U.S. traded 10 Russians accused of spying in the U.S. for four jailed Russian double agents. The U.S. intelligence said that the four held in Russian prisons were far more valuable than the 10 we sent back. They were the so-called illegals living as everyday Americans. They got no classified information. They were apparently trying to infiltrate government and academia in hopes of influencing future policymakers. Their story, Steve, you can recognize. They became the basis of the popular TV show "The Americans." One reason the U.S. was eager to send them home rather than try them here was that a trial could reveal surveillance methods that the FBI was eager to keep secret.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Let's hear from our next listener.</s>DAN SMITH: Hello, this is Dan Smith in Seattle, Wash. Have we ever traded a spy out of the country that can incriminate the highest levels of one of our political parties with their testimony and cooperation?</s>COKIE ROBERTS, BYLINE: Well, most of what a spy who's been held in jail knows was likely already revealed to his or her government before the arrest. What intelligence agencies tend to be much more wary about are alleged defectors; most notorious case there was that of Yuri Nosenko who defected from the KGB in 1964. He revealed that Lee Harvey Oswald was not a Soviet agent. The CIA was totally distrustful of Nosenko and held him in harsh detention for several years until he finally convinced them he was for real. Then they gave him a new name, sent him someplace South. Neither his name nor his place of residence was revealed in his 2008 obituary.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Wow. We have another question here about the regularity of these kinds of events.</s>MIKE KOEPPEN: Mike Koeppen - Arlington Heights, Ill. Do spy swaps happen all that often?</s>COKIE ROBERTS, BYLINE: In the Cold War, the swaps happened much more often than they have in recent years. Before that 2010 one that we talked about earlier, the last major one was in 1986, and it was on the so-called Bridge of Spies, the bridge in Berlin where spies were exchanged in very dangerous and precarious ways through the Cold War - very, very dramatic.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's Cokie Roberts. We contemplated swapping her for Nina Totenberg for this segment, but the exchange did not work out. Cokie, thanks so much.</s>COKIE ROBERTS, BYLINE: Good to talk to you.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: You can ask Cokie your questions about how politics and the government work by tweeting us with the hashtag #AskCokie. |
Rachel Martin talks to Carmen Ejogo, who plays Amelia Reardon in the new season. The case is set in the 1980s, two children disappear in small-town Arkansas, in the heart of the Ozarks. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So here's the case. Two young kids disappear in small town Arkansas in the heart of the Ozarks. The lead detective is a man named Wayne Hays, played by Mahershala Ali - a man haunted by the evil he uncovers.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) I never stop coming up with theories about that case.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: (As Amelia) Whatever you think you did or didn't do, you don't deserve to suffer.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) This case is all I can think of. I want to know the whole story.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: HBO's "True Detective" is back with a dark and sinister investigation set in 1980. And in this season, uncovering the truth behind the kidnapping involves a woman - a schoolteacher named Amelia Reardon, played by Carmen Ejogo.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: She becomes embroiled in the case because the children that go missing are children that she taught. And so often, the teacher is perhaps the person that they are closest to, even more so than their parents. And that's very much the scenario with our story.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) Anything you can tell me about Will?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: (As Amelia) He has a sensitivity. You always worry a bit about the sensitive ones. I don't think he got noticed much.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The investigation draws Detective Hays to Amelia. Carmen Ejogo says the two are bound together by the case.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: In many ways, they should never have come together. They have nothing in common. But fate brings us together. And they're also very other, being part of this community that, really, doesn't quite know what to do with them. You know, Wayne is a detective. He's a trailblazer. He's the first detective, the first cop in the force to reach that position.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The first black cop.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: That's right. And I am a sort of biracial sort of worldly teacher who has ambitions that are above my station if you ask certain people, you know, within the community. So despite all of their inequities, all the things that don't really match up or make sense on paper, there is something that is inevitable about the relationship.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) You from this area?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: (As Amelia) Fayetteville.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) How is it here?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: (As Amelia) It's good, really, for what it is. I hear something now and then.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) What you hear now and then?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: (As Amelia) You know, a word in the hallway or something. They're careful around me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tell me about your experience in Fayetteville. This is the setting for this story. You actually filmed it there, right?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: We did, yeah. I'd never been there before, and I - so I had no idea what to expect. And as I found myself in Fayetteville, I realized that it was a college town. On the surface, it felt very liberal and progressive in many ways. But it was interesting because as I spent more and more time there, I could feel that there's clearly a racial history to that place that is not necessarily blatantly (laughter) on display. It almost felt quite British at times, where, you know, it felt very pleasant but that I could just feel under the surface that there is some other kind of relationship between black and white in that town that might be a lot more complicated.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I want to play a clip, which kind of gets to what you're talking about in terms of how the story deals with race. And this is of Detective Wayne Hays questioning a white woman about the man they suspect may be behind the kidnapping, so let's listen.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) You know who he was?</s>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Didn't recognize him - negro man like yourself. Oh, he had a dead eye.</s>MAHERSHALA ALI: (As Wayne) Nothing about his face besides the eye? - handsome or ugly?</s>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Like I say, he was black.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: (Laughter) I knew you were going to stop right there (laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Such an amazing clip.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It says so much.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: Yeah. She's completely oblivious to the irony of the fact that she's talking like this to a black man, you know? And that's the sort of stuff that, I think, is most interesting to explore because it really is the subtleties of racism that creep up on these characters.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Mahershala Ali has talked openly about the fact that he was originally considered for the secondary detective character. He was not considered for the lead. It was supposed to go to a white actor. In fact, he told us as much in an interview last year that he had to advocate for himself. He had to suggest to them that he play the lead. Asking you, I suppose, to engage in some revisionist history, but if Mahershala Ali hadn't been cast as Wayne Hays, where would that have left you?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: It probably would have left me out of a job, frankly (laughter), which is, you know, very often the case with these sorts of storylines is the most interesting female role is going to play opposite the male lead. And that's usually white, you know? But thankfully, things have really taken a turn over the past several years. And you have a sort of wonderful convergence now of actors continually advocating for their value as leads and that - the convergence with an industry that now recognizes that there is value in that too is kind of the sweet spot that we seem to have arrived at, which is why, I think, Mahershala - you know, aside from his awesome, clear talent, I think that's probably why he won his case.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You have played the role of a wife a few times now, most famously as Coretta Scott King in two different films. And these are, obviously, very different roles. But whether it's the wife of a civil rights icon or the wife of a high-profile detective, I wonder if you have learned something about the power that these women have, what that particular role as spouse, as wife, carries with it.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I almost didn't do this job for that very reason.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Really?</s>CARMEN EJOGO: Yeah, because that always suggests that it's going to be you're just supporting the man in the show.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: I was only shown the first few episodes. And I really didn't fully appreciate or wasn't able to fully appreciate just how important and pivotal this role really is. Thank goodness I made the decision to come on board because I really had the opportunity and the space to play somebody who is affecting a man and being self-affecting in a way that, I think, an audience can really see that growth and what that can look like in a woman. And it also explores what it looks like in the man in the relationship.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: He becomes quite threatened by her growth. And the fact, though, that they then, perhaps, find their way through that is what made it worth playing another wife (laughter). And as a result, I think I might be one of the most complex characters in the show, so I'm really glad I went for it in the end.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Carmen Ejogo plays Amelia Reardon in the new season of HBO's "True Detective." Carmen, thanks so much for talking with me.</s>CARMEN EJOGO: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.</s>CASSANDRA WILSON: (Singing) I got a letter this morning. |
Rachel Martin talks to Dionne Searcey, West Africa bureau chief for The New York Times, about shifting divorce patterns in Niger, where women now feel empowered to initiate divorces. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: In Niger, divorce court takes place on public sidewalks out in the open. Dionne Searcey is the West Africa bureau chief for The New York Times, and she has seen one in action.</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: The judge's bench was a double sheepskin rug. And cars were driving by. It was hard to hear sometimes. And there was a giant crowd of people around, and they were all men. And the women would part the crowd, and they just looked so small compared to all these men standing there.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Today, more women in Muslim-majority Niger are showing up at these courts, having triggered their own divorce. Searcey joined me earlier this week, and she said that this is part of a larger movement in West Africa, women taking control of their marriages and their relationships.</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: I went to Niger to explore a story about forced marriages and child marriages. And Niger is one of those countries that has all the bad superlatives - one of the highest illiteracy rates for girls, one of the poorest countries in the world. This is a place where genital cutting still happens. And I stumbled upon an Islamic court judge, and he started telling me that he's seen a lot of divorce cases. And not just regular divorce cases, but cases that are initiated by women.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: When you have spoken to these women, why are they making this kind of change in their life? What is convincing them that it's safe to do so?</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: Well, I spoke with a teenager, named Zalika (ph), for instance, who had met a man at a wedding. She wasn't really thinking about getting married. She told me she didn't find him particularly attractive, but he was nice to her mom. And she thought they could have a nice life together. And as, you know, many relationships start to sort of fade as time goes on, he didn't want her to work, and she wanted to work. So every day, she sat inside her house and just stewed. Then she got pregnant, and when she was in labor, he didn't even come to the hospital. And that was enough for her. But what's happening in Niger is a change. Women and girls have more access to media, to TV shows, to radio shows...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That show women living more independent lives.</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: Yeah. And another huge factor is more people are moving to cities, and that's affecting the way people are thinking in huge ways, and this is just one of them.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Divorce is legal there, right? And women have always officially had the right to file for divorce. So why didn't they use it?</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: Well, I think before, it was really a woman's place to stay in a marriage. And, you know, divorce, for sure, has happened across West Africa and across Niger. But, you know, in talking to a lot of these girls' mothers, the mothers all had told me, listen, I got married to a stranger when I was 14, and I stuck it out for 50 years and they should stick it out, too.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Interesting.</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: It's just a generational difference.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How are men reacting to this shift?</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: You know, I think the men that I talked to, none of them were particularly happy. I mean, the women - you know, divorce isn't a pleasant thing. You know, it's going to be hard for these women. But they all had told me they wanted to remarry, and I expect the men would remarry, too. But the thing that I thought was a bright spot in all this is everybody seemed to want to have a relationship based on love, and that's very different. I mean, this is a place where a lot of parents trade off their young girls to be married to get the dowry.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We've talked about the young woman you profiled in your piece, Zalika. Did that young woman, Zalika, ever get her divorce?</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: She did. She got her divorce. One day, her husband stormed out of the area where the court was being held. Went over and talked to him, and he had all these excuses. You know, he blamed her mother-in-law. He blamed the economy. He said, I'm tired of coming here - fine. I'll give her the divorce. And the next day, they said they're absolutely unable to work it out, and the judge gave them their divorce.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Dionne Searcey is West Africa bureau chief for The New York Times. We spoke with her on Skype. Thanks so much for talking with us.</s>DIONNE SEARCEY: Thank you. |
President Trump on Thursday visits the U.S. Mexico border, after talks to resolve the partial government shutdown were unsuccessful on Wednesday. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: President Trump leaves behind the stalemate in Washington over border security and heads to the border himself. Just like his address from the Oval Office the other night, though, it's unclear how much his border visit will actually change anyone's mind. A meeting between the president and Democratic congressional leaders yesterday ended with the president walking out. Here's how Vice President Mike Pence explained it.</s>VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: He asked Speaker Pelosi that if he opened things up quickly, if he reopened the government quickly, would she be willing to agree to funding for a wall or a barrier on the Southern border. And when she said no, the president said, goodbye.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Democratic Majority Leader Chuck Schumer had a different take.</s>CHUCK SCHUMER: And then a few minutes later, he sort of slammed the table, and when Leader Pelosi said she didn't agree with the wall, he just walked out and said, we have nothing to discuss.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: However it went down, it seems talks are in shambles on this day, Day 20 of the partial government shutdown. We are joined now by NPR White House correspondent Scott Horsley. Good morning, Scott.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The president called the meeting yesterday a, quote, "total waste of time." Is it fair to say that negotiations are at a new low this morning?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Well, I don't know if we're at a new low, but if the session yesterday didn't move us backwards, it certainly didn't move anybody forward. You know, the president is unwilling to give up what he sees as his one bit of leverage in this wall battle, which is the partial government shutdown, and Democrats are unwilling to give in to what they see as extortion by the president.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mentioned the primetime address he gave earlier this week from the Oval Office. Now he's heading to the border. But there are these reports suggesting that the president himself isn't necessarily keen on the messaging campaign around this whole thing, right?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Right. The president had an off-the-record meeting with some network people before his speech on Tuesday. And - surprise, surprise - details of that off-the-record session have now leaked out, and the president's expressed skepticism that either that speech or this photo-op along the border today was really going to move the needle. And in fact, there is no evidence that his speech on Tuesday night turned any heads when it comes to the border wall.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The White House has talked about the president possibly declaring a national emergency to just bypass Congress altogether and start building the wall with Mexico. Is that still in the president's back pocket?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Yes. The president has said that is still on the table, although he seems really reluctant to pull the trigger. It would almost certainly invite a legal challenge if he were to declare a national emergency and unilaterally, say, move money from some military account to fund the border wall.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And even some of the president's congressional allies are wary about this step, either because they don't want to see military money used for another purpose or because they don't want to see the president short-circuiting the congressional authority to control the purse strings. However, there are some observers who see this who have reluctantly embraced the presidential emergency strategy as one way out of this logjam.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But I mean, Scott, you have covered your fair share of government shutdowns over the years. As you look at how this is unfolding or just the intransigence of the whole thing, what strikes you? I mean, where is the opening here?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: You know, I have seen a lot of tense negotiations in the White House, and I've certainly seen some grim staring contests across the table in the Roosevelt Room there. What I think is unusual about this situation is how transparent the president has been about his own bargaining tactics. He has frankly acknowledged that he is willing to hold parts of the government hostage in order to get his way on the border wall that he has not been able to get through any other means.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right - keep saying these people giving up their paychecks are patriots. But we'll see how long that lasts. NPR White House correspondent Scott Horsley. Thanks, Scott.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: You're welcome. |
Federal workers from across the country tell of how the partial government shutdown is affecting them. The shutdown is in its 21st day, and is tied for the longest shutdown in history. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: For many people, of course, Friday means pay day. But not for the hundreds of thousands of federal workers who are impacted by this partial government shutdown.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. So this will be the first paycheck they miss since the shutdown went into effect. We wanted to understand the impact of all of this on these workers, so we called them up. And here are a few of their voices.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. Let's start with Robert. And we're only identifying him by his first name because he works in the security industry.</s>ROBERT: I'm currently working because I'm essential personnel, but not getting paid. Since I work every day - you know, mandatory that I have to come to work every day - I can't seek other employment or other ways of making any money. And so I've already deferred my car loans. I've contacted my landlord. They let me slide till next month to pay rent. My cellphone that I'm talking on, they said I didn't have to pay until next month. And so it's just - just to be blunt, it's very stressful. But I still go to work every day.</s>LISA HONAN: My name is Lisa Honan (ph). At first, honestly, you don't really feel it until that first paycheck doesn't come through, and we know that we're not going to be getting paid tomorrow. And we have some friends and family offer to help out. But we're going to probably withdraw on our 529 account for - I hate to say it. It's our, you know, funds for college that you put away for your kids. We were talking about maybe making a withdrawal on that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And here's air traffic controller Melissa Hempson. She's a single mom working in the Washington, D.C., region.</s>MELISSA HEMPSON: My ex-husband passed away a year ago, and it's just me trying to make ends meet. So I don't - you know, I have family to rely on a bit. But it's stressful. And it's not something I need right now. Handling the busiest airspace in the world, you know? I'm - it makes people feel resentful to have to - I'm working Air Force One. I'm not getting paid. I know his Secret Service isn't getting paid. I know he's flying down the border. The TSA isn't getting paid. I know that the people on that airplane are getting paid. You know? That makes you think, like, what's the problem? Why is my paycheck being withheld?</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: The voices of some of the federal workers who are struggling through this partial shutdown, which has now tied for the longest government shutdown ever.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And we don't know how long these government workers are going to have to live with all this uncertainty. Talks between Congress and the White House are at a standstill. |
President Trump returned from a trip to the border as negotiations to end the partial government shutdown appear stalled. The president may declare a national emergency to get a border wall built. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: Today the partial government shutdown has hit a record. It is now tied for the longest shutdown in U.S. history. And it's almost certain to set a new record as the longest ever, with chances of a breakthrough in talks seeming more remote than ever. In fact, President Trump appears ready to declare a national emergency in order to sidestep Congress and build a border wall.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have the absolute right to declare a national emergency, the lawyers have so advised me. I'm not prepared to do that yet. But if I have to, I will. I have no doubt about it. I will. This is a crisis.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. We have NPR congressional correspondent Susan Davis in the studio with us. Good morning, Sue.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so it seems like a stalemate - not much action. But there's been some action on Capitol Hill to try and reopen the government, right? So what is happening, and why are there - the hope's pretty dim that it'll mean anything?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: There had been a flurry of activity this week, particularly in the Senate, among senators who thought they might be able to come up with a compromise to put forward to the president and to Democrats. They've kind of abandoned ship on that. One of the senators involved in that effort is Lindsey Graham, a Republican from South Carolina. And he essentially came out publicly yesterday and said, I do not see any path forward for a deal; the only way out of this is for President Trump to declare a national emergency - and essentially encouraged him to do so.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so this national emergency - I mean, I have so much to ask you here. I mean, there are questions about whether the president has legal authority to do this. But this may actually be an opening to get government workers back to work, right?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: It could in theory. If the president declares an emergency and says he's going to marshal resources to build the wall and sidestep Congress, it could allow them to reopen government because it would take the wall issue out of the budget debate. It does create, however, an entirely separate legal question of, would it be challenged in the courts? Would it be held up in the courts? You know, would it - would they have to pause until the court would weigh in on this? And also this question of executive overreach, which has been, for most Republicans on Capitol Hill, a really big concern in recent years. Particularly, it's something that they accused President Obama of doing - of essentially sidestepping the legislative branch to enact policy that Congress simply hasn't approved.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Oh, interesting. So Republicans could be in a weird spot where Democrats would be saying you complained about this with Obama for eight years; look at what your president is doing.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: And they would likely stand behind President Trump on this as they have on most issues even when they feel uncomfortable about it.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: But so if he goes ahead and declares this emergency, you're saying this could become, like, a prolonged legal battle. And it's not clear if an actual emergency could go into place until the courts actually addressed it.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: That's right. And it's weird because I don't think there is a dispute that the president has broad powers when he declares a national emergency. They gave - he has this power for reasons. But often when the president has invoked these powers, it has been after 9/11 or after Hurricane Katrina - moments when, I think, the country as a whole recognized we were in a state of emergency, and there was no dispute to invoking those powers.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: We've been talking about our current state of politics - the tribalism...</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: Yeah.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: ...The anger, the partisanship, the gridlock. I mean, this feels like it's a new moment - to sort of take stock of that - if the only way out of a debate over how to open the government is to have a president declaring an emergency.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: I also think it goes to the symbolism of the wall. There's so much about this debate that isn't really a policy fight. It's really a political fight. And it's a political knife fight, increasingly. And the White House and his advisers see the wall - if he gives up on the wall, if he walks away from that, it will so dispirit his base that it could cripple his presidency. Senator Lindsey Graham has said as much.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: On the other end, Democrats just won a big election in which the president weaponized immigration and the border in the closing weeks of the campaign. And Democrats won big, and they took control of the House. And they see the public on their side. And they see no reason to compromise with the president, knowing what it could mean for him if he loses on the wall.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And one other thing to note in news out of Congress - we have the president's former lawyer Michael Cohen who's going to be testifying on Capitol Hill next month it's sounding like now. That could be interesting.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: It will be the first in what is expected to be a year of high-profile intense hearings from Capitol Hill now that Democrats are in control. They have oversight authority. They have subpoena power. They intend to use it. We know much of what Michael Cohen has said, but most of it - it has been read. He was into the courts, and it was not on television. He will have a chance to testify publicly. And he issued a statement, noting yesterday, he is coming up voluntarily. And he is looking eager to talk to Congress.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: NPR's Susan Davis. Sue, thanks.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: You're welcome. |
Trump heads to McAllen, Texas, on the U.S.-Mexico border. Secretary of State Pompeo, who's in Egypt, speaks on U.S. policy in the region. A new treatment for miscarriage is mired in abortion debate. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: Today, President Trump is heading to McAllen, Texas. This is a city right along the border with Mexico.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. It is one of dozens of towns on the nearly 2,000-mile stretch where the president hopes to build a wall or a barrier. The border wall is the reason the partial government shutdown is stretching into Day 20. And it's why negotiations broke down again yesterday between the White House and congressional Democrats. Vice President Mike Pence blamed Democrats.</s>VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Today, in this brief meeting, we heard once again that Democratic leaders are unwilling to even negotiate.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Meanwhile, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said it's the president who won't budge and the president who ended the meeting yesterday rather abruptly.</s>CHUCK SCHUMER: Well, unfortunately, the president just got up and walked out.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, well, let's bring in NPR White House correspondent Scott Horsley to talk about this moment. Good morning, Scott.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, David.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so no one is budging. This partial government shutdown, if it's not resolved by tomorrow, and there's no sign it will be, I mean, you're going to have hundreds of thousands of government workers missing their first paycheck. I mean, are you seeing any sides of the Democrats or Republicans cracking here?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Not at the top, David. Democrats, led by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, the Senate minority leader, are not about to reward the president for shutting down parts of the government. They feel like that would just encourage him to resort to extortion whenever he doesn't get what he wants. And the president is reluctant to end the border shutdown without a wall because he feels like this is his, really, only point of leverage.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: There have been some small cracks among rank-and-file Senate Republicans, especially a few who are up for re-election in two years, who have said they would like to see the shutdown ended while negotiations continue. But that only matters if the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is willing to go along. And so far, he's not.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And Senate Republicans are critical - right? - because, I mean, the House, led by Democrats now, last night passed a bill to reopen parts of the government, but probably not going to go anywhere if you don't have leadership in the Senate actually saying, like, maybe we'll think about this.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Nowhere except as a talking point and a way for Democrats to underscore their message that this shutdown is the responsibility of the president. Polls already suggest that most Americans blame President Trump for this shutdown. Not surprising since he's been pretty transparent about using it as a bargaining chip.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And, as you say, tomorrow is when this becomes very real in a financial way for those 800,000 federal workers who are supposed to get a paycheck and will miss one for the first time since this all began back before Christmas.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so President Trump - he walks out of a meeting with congressional leaders yesterday. That's the scene in Washington. Now he's shifting the backdrop. He's going to the border. I mean, beyond a scene change, what is the president hoping to accomplish here?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: This is sort of the field trip version of the speech he gave from the Oval Office on Tuesday night. It's an opportunity for him to try to paint this border situation as both a humanitarian and a national security crisis. He's going to visit a border patrol station. He's going to visit the Rio Grande river itself.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: But, you know, the mayor of McAllen has been holding his own photo-ops and media interviews. On the one hand, he welcomes the president's visit. He welcomes some extra federal resources. But he's not thrilled about having his city, which he thinks is one of the safest in America, portrayed as some kind of desolate border badland of crime and drugs. So that's going to kind of undercut the president's message a little bit.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. Scott Horsley, NPR's White House correspondent. Scott, thanks.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Great to be with you, David.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: We're going to turn now to Cairo, where Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is getting ready to give a big speech today.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. It was a decade ago that President Barack Obama went to Cairo to deliver a speech about his administration's foreign policy. Today, Mike Pompeo will give the Trump administration's version, and perhaps some clarity, after weeks of shifting positions, on Syria and other regional issues.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And NPR's Michele Kelemen has been traveling with the secretary of state and joins us now from Cairo. And, Michele, you've been traveling a lot, right? Give us a sense of the ground Pompeo's covered.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Well, we're only just begun on this. We started in Jordan, a country that borders Syria and one of the many in this region that's nervous about the U.S. troop withdrawal from Syria. Pompeo then took a daytrip to Iraq, both Baghdad and up to Erbil in the mainly Kurdish north of the country.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: And his message has been basically this - that the U.S. troop pullout is a tactical shift, not a change in the U.S. goals in the region. He says the U.S. is committed to defeating ISIS and pushing back on Iran. And he's trying to downplay all these mixed messages coming from the administration on the conditions and the pace of that Syria troop pullout and what it'll mean to Kurdish fighters who helped the U.S. in the fight against ISIS.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so now you're in Cairo, and it sounds like there are lots of people there with you covering this visit. I mean, what exactly is going to happen there?</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Yeah. We're busy here at the Foreign Ministry building. He's already met with the country's president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, who's been a big supporter of President Trump. Sisi has come under a lot of criticism from human rights groups for jailing thousands of activists. And while the State Department has raised some human rights concerns, it's also praising Sisi for his efforts to support Christians in Iraq. And that's something that Pompeo clearly appreciates. He's really put a priority on promoting religious freedom.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And, Michele, this really is a moment to sort of take stock of U.S. policy in this region - right? - because, as Rachel said, I mean, it was a decade ago when President Obama gave this big speech there laying out his vision. I suppose this is really a chance for the Trump administration to use the same setting to lay out a vision that sounds like might be very different.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Yeah. Well, you know, when Obama gave that speech in 2009, he was calling for a new beginning for U.S. relations with the Muslim world. He spoke at a very old university here. Pompeo is speaking at a different university, the American University of Cairo, and his message is likely to be far different. He's complained a lot, especially about Obama's approach to Iran, focusing on the nuclear deal and, as Pompeo says, ignoring all the rest of Iran's bad behavior in the region. The Trump administration has been trying to keep focused on that - on Iran and putting pressure on Iran.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And then after the speech, where do you all go from Egypt?</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Oh, we have a big trip ahead. It's still Bahrain, UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman. Again, building up this coalition against Iran. He'll have to deal with the Saudi-Qatar split, which is ongoing - a diplomatic dispute that they've had, and his envoy on that quit this week.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. Well, safe travels.</s>MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: That's NPR's Michele Kelemen, who is traveling with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in Egypt this morning.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: All right. About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in a miscarriage. That is as many as one in five.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So a miscarriage is, obviously, an incredibly emotional experience. It's also a physically painful experience. And a woman often requires additional medical treatment to help her body clear the pregnancy.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There is a new treatment that can make that process easier, but getting access to it is not so easy. It involves a combination of drugs - one that's been used for miscarriages, and the other is known as the abortion pill. And regulations around abortions in the U.S. can make that second pill difficult, or even impossible, for some women to get.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And we're joined in our studio this morning by Sarah McCammon, NPR correspondent. She's been reporting on this story. And she's been speaking to women in Canada, where the drugs are more available, and also in the United States, where they are less available. Sarah, thanks for being here.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Sure thing.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: So start with telling us how this treatment works exactly.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Well, it is important to understand that sometimes, a miscarriage happens on its own, completes naturally, but not always. Sometimes, to expel the fetal remains, a woman needs surgery. Sometimes she needs drugs to finish the process. And there are a couple of different drugs involved here, as we said. Doctors say the most effective protocol, they believe now, involves a drug called mifepristone, also known as the abortion pill.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: So this is a little complicated. Stay with me. I'm going to explain the difference of these two drugs. There are actually two in the protocol. The first is called misoprostol, which has been used in abortions, but also for accelerating miscarriages for years. What's newer is using mifepristone with it. It was approved by the FDA in 2000 for use in medication abortions. But there's growing evidence that it's helpful for miscarriages, too. A recent article in the New England Journal of Medicine found that that combination of the drugs was faster and more effective than the old way, which was just misoprostol alone.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK, so mifepristone - this is the drug that is harder for women in the United States to access.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Exactly.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Explain why that's the case.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Well, since it was approved for abortions, it's been heavily regulated. And unlike in Canada, where one woman I spoke to lives, it can't be stocked in pharmacies here in the U.S., and clinics that carry it have to apply for a special designation from the federal government. So some American doctors have said they've had trouble prescribing mifepristone for patients experiencing a miscarriage.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Here's Kristyn Brandi. She's an OB-GYN at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School, and she's had some difficulty prescribing this drug.</s>KRISTYN BRANDI: And it's been really frustrating to know that there's a medication out there that I can give to my patients that I don't physically have to give to them.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: And I also talked to a woman in Canada. Her name was Kirstin Herbst. And she said, you know, she'd recently gone through a miscarriage, and the chance to take the pills and go through this process that was very difficult for her in the privacy of her own home was really invaluable.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK. So, Sarah, where is the opposition to this coming from?</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Well, there's long been political debate around mifepristone in particular. Some anti-abortion groups say they have no problem using it just for miscarriage, but some have expressed safety concerns. One doctor I talked to who opposes abortion rights says she's mostly worried about safety, but she also worries that if regulations on mifepristone were relaxed, there would be more abortions.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: It's worth noting that multiple medical groups, including the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, or ACOG, are recommending this protocol and say it's safe and effective.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Well, if that's the case, I mean, is there movement to make this drug easier to get here in the U.S.?</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Well, there's at least one lawsuit not directly linked to miscarriage, but it's about easing restrictions about using the drug, in general, for abortion. And several medical groups, including ACOG and the American Medical Association, are asking the FDA to relax the regulations for use in miscarriage. The FDA has told NPR it believes the restrictions are necessary for patient safety.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK. That's NPR correspondent Sarah McCammon, who's in our studios in Washington this morning. Sarah, thanks.</s>SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: Thank you. |
Congressional leaders head back to the White House as the shutdown rolls on. We examine some of the claims the president made in his speech. Lifetime's Surviving R. Kelly generates a lot of interest. | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What, if anything, changed after President Trump and Democrats made their case on a border wall?</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Well, we might find out today. Congressional leaders are going to be meeting with the president. Last night, the president asked the American people to reach out to them.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: To every citizen, call Congress and tell them to, finally, after all of these decades, secure our border.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: The president blocked routine government spending measures unless they include money for a border wall. He raised the specter of drugs and crime. Afterwards, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer responded.</s>NANCY PELOSI: Much of what we heard from President Trump throughout this senseless shutdown has been full of misinformation and even malice. The president has chosen fear.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson was listening to the speeches and joins us this morning.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Hi there, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Hi, there.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: So the president used the bully pulpit, as they say. Did you feel any sign of movement or change last night?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: I didn't hear any sign of movement. There was nothing in the speech that offered a new compromise, no kind of legalize the DREAMers in exchange for wall funding - that's a compromise that both sides flirted with a while ago. So I think unless congressional leaders and the president come up with something we didn't hear last night today, I don't think we'll make progress in these meetings because neither side is hurting enough politically yet.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, you said hurting enough. This is a war of attrition, isn't it? Each side is seeing who can suffer more. Were there any arguments the president laid out that would seem damaging to Democrats over the long term?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Well, I think the president had three goals last night. One is he needed to convince people outside of his hard core base that shutting down the government to get funding for the wall is a good idea. And Democrats are pretty confident that that won't work. They say this was litigated in 2018. The president's message in the election was all about an invading caravan, and it didn't work. So they're pretty dug in.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: The second goal, of course, was to keep Republicans from abandoning ship and starting to vote with Democrats to reopen the government, something a small handful of Republicans have already done in the House and about three Senate Republicans who are up in 2020 have been calling for. And the third goal, I think, was to show his base that he's fighting and to lay the groundwork for what might be the endgame of this whole debate, which is declaring a national emergency on the border - doing it himself, doing an end run around Congress.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Mara, is there some vulnerability for Democrats? Because there are a number of Democrats in Congress who, in past years, in other situations, have voted for funding for various kinds of fences and border barriers.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: I think that's probably the strongest argument the president made. In the last continuing resolution - government funding resolution he signed, the Democrats said, you can spend this money explicitly. The language in the bill was, you can spend this money on steel fencing, but you can't build a concrete wall. And he's saying now, fine; I'll build a steel fence. So you know, he's saying, you approved this money for this kind of barrier in the past. Why don't you do it again?</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. Thanks very much. That's NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Now let's check some of the facts in the president's speech.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. And it's worth noting, there was one notable omission in the speech. The president never said the word terror last night. This week, the White House has backed off claims about the number of terrorists crossing the border.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah. There were questions about some numbers the White House was throwing around. NPR's Joel Rose covers immigration, listened to what was there.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Good morning, Joel.</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And let's start with the president's dramatic language about people who are in the United States illegally, committing crimes.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: How much more American blood must we shed before Congress does its job?</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. There are dramatic cases. The president alluded to some of them. But are immigrants, statistically, more dangerous than anybody else, Joel?</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: No. Immigrants are actually less likely than native-born people to commit crimes. But this is a technique that the president has used a lot, going back to his campaign, to point to individual anecdotes with sympathetic crime victims. For example, last night, he talked about an incident - a police officer in California who was allegedly killed by an undocumented immigrant in December. The president also brought up MS-13, the violent street gang, which he does with some regularity. But by focusing on these gruesome examples, his critics say he is exaggerating the overall threat from immigrants and playing on fear. By the way, the police officer who was killed in California that the president called an American hero - also an immigrant, from Fiji.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, the president also repeated a claim that he has made on Twitter. Let's listen to that.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Our southern border is a pipeline for vast quantities of illegal drugs, including meth, heroin, cocaine and fentanyl.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. This does seem basically true. Right? A lot of drugs do come north from Latin America.</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: Absolutely. But most of those drugs come through in cars and trucks that pass through legal ports of entry. So it's not actually clear that a border wall would do anything to slow them down or stop them.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, oh - so this is a version of the concern about people who come to the United States illegally, also through legal ports of entry. They come with a visa and overstay the visa. The law wouldn't affect them, either.</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: And they are the largest share of people who are becoming undocumented immigrants. That's right.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. Well, there's one other claim the president made that we want to check. Let's give a listen to this.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: The wall will also be paid for, indirectly, by the great new trade deal we have made with Mexico.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. This is vital, Joel Rose, because the president and his campaign didn't say - we're going to build a wall, and Congress and American taxpayers will pay for it. He said - we're going to build a wall, and Mexico will pay for it. Now he's saying this is how Mexico is going to pay for it, through this trade agreement. Is there some provision in the new North American Free Trade deal to pay for wall construction?</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: Not directly, no. I mean, the president is talking about the United States-Mexico-Canada agreement, which was signed by the leaders of the three countries in November. Trump has repeatedly claimed that that new pact would usher in huge economic benefits for the U.S., essentially making up for the cost of the border wall. But there are two big problems with this argument. First, the agreement has yet to be approved by Congress, and that is not a sure thing. So any conclusions about how much money it's going to bring in are premature. And second, many economists say the new agreement is just a modest reworking of NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement that it is supposed to replace. They are skeptical that it's going to do much to really boost economic growth in the U.S.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And very briefly, the Democrats didn't speak very long. Were there any factual concerns in their short statements?</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: Well, one thing to note that I think you kind of hit on already with Mara - but the Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer, has said that Democrats and the president both want stronger security; however, they disagree about the most effective way to do it. However, as the president did point out last night, congressional Democrats, including Schumer, have sometimes supported border barriers in the past.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Joel, thanks very much.</s>JOEL ROSE, BYLINE: You're welcome.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Joel Rose.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: All right. What are the consequences for R. Kelly after a documentary series focused on sexual abuse allegations?</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Yeah. Lifetime says more than 2 million viewers have watched the "Surviving R. Kelly" series. It tells the stories of women who say the multiplatinum R&B artist abused them, isolated them, also had sex with them - some when they were underage. Accusers say Kelly ran a sex cult in Georgia and in Chicago. Kim Foxx, the state's attorney in Cook County, Ill., is now inviting other possible victims to tell their stories.</s>KIM FOXX: Please come forward. There is nothing that can be done to investigate these allegations without the cooperation of both victims and witnesses.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And we should say, there has been a debate over why there wasn't more outcry and more investigation sooner. That debate is growing louder and louder on social media.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And NPR TV critic Eric Deggans has been listening.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Hi there, Eric</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: Hi.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What kinds of conversations are you seeing and hearing?</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: Well, there's a lot of conversation and a lot of attention being paid to this series. As you noted, 2 million people watched the debut. But over the course of this six-part series, Lifetime is saying something like 18.8 million people have watched it and that it's also their most talked-about series on social media in the network's history, which gives you the sense that people are talking about it on social media. And the conversation we're seeing is this idea of, can you separate the artist from his music?</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: There are fans out there who want to still enjoy sentimental hits, like "I Believe I Can Fly" and "Step In The Name Of Love" from R. Kelly. They're important in their personal history. But people are also pointing out and the docu-series makes the argument that he's used the wealth that he's amassed from these hits to build a strategy for grooming young women, for imprisoning young women, for abusing young women. And so people are arguing that you can't really separate those two things. And it's forcing a conversation about pedophilia, sexual abuse and even believing black women when they speak out about abuse within black communities across the country, which seems to be the most impressive result.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Eric, is this case a little like Bill Cosby's case in that the allegations were sort of known for quite some time but, finally, we've hit a moment where people are really paying attention?</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: I think that that dynamic is definitely happening. I interviewed Dream Hampton, one of the executive producers on the series, and she told me that, for some people, ideas like this don't really become concrete until they really see it on television. And there was something very striking about watching this docu-series and seeing woman after woman come forward. All of the women featured in the docu-series have made their allegations public before, but this is the first docu-series to bring them all together in one very potent story that covers from the beginning of R. Kelly's career in Chicago all the way up until the present day.</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: And we're in this moment where we're seeing people look at the work of Louis C.K. and Kevin Spacey and Bill Cosby and go back and sort of say - you know, there were things that we heard about these guys that maybe we shrugged off or maybe we didn't pay enough attention to. And again, this idea of believing women when they step forward to tell stories of abuse - and I think in this #MeToo moment that we're experiencing now, there's an effort to do that more. And so it's causing us to go back and relook at these incidents. And R. Kelly is the focus of this now.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What did you mean earlier, Eric, when you suggested that women of color might be treated differently as accusers than white women?</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: Well, Chance the Rapper, this famous musician, just did a video interview where he talked about that, where he talked about - saying that working with R. Kelly was a mistake. And one of the reasons why he may have paid short shrift to some of the allegations about R. Kelly is because he didn't fully believe black women when they stepped forward. And I think a lot of people are having that conversation now, thanks to this docu-series.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Wow.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Eric, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.</s>ERIC DEGGANS, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Eric Deggans.</s>INSPECTAH DECK: (Rapping) I move through the Third World. My third eye's the guiding light. |
The Qualcomm representative was saying smart speakers can recommend hotels and restaurants while people are driving. Alexa said, "That's not true." It's not clear why Alexa chimed in at that point. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: Good morning. I'm David Greene. BuzzFeed is reporting on a freaky moment at a tech conference. A representative from Qualcomm was saying that smart speakers can recommend hotels and restaurants.</s>ALEXA: No, that's not true.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: It is not clear why Alexa chimed in there. And is this really funny? I mean, I've been scared of technology since HAL's voice in "2001: A Space Odyssey." Let's just end this segment.</s>DOUGLAS RAIN: (As HAL) I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Oh, God. |
Federal Reserve Chairman Jay Powell and his two predecessors talk about the latest jobs report, and why they are not too worried about inflation — despite what the Phillips Curve may predict. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: Three of the most important economists in this country sat down for a panel at an economic conference in Atlanta last week. Former Fed chairs Ben Bernanke and Janet Yellen, along with the current Fed chair, Jay Powell, were talking shop and also talking about the latest jobs report. But as Cardiff Garcia and Stacey Vanek Smith from our Planet Money podcast, the Indicator, tell us, a stellar jobs report is not always a good thing.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: It was a pretty stellar report - 312,000 jobs added in December, strong wage growth and, of course, unemployment is still below 4 percent. And then here's Jay Powell's response.</s>JAY POWELL: That's quite welcome and also, for me at this time, does not raise concerns about too high inflation.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Does not raise concerns about too high inflation. That seems like a weird comment to make, right? We added all these jobs, but that doesn't mean I'm worried about inflation.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: Yeah, but economists discuss the relationship between unemployment and inflation all the time. That relationship is sometimes referred to as the Phillips curve. And that's this idea that if enough people are working, it will cause inflation. The prices of the things that we buy will start going up. And according to the Phillips curve, the reverse is also true. So if unemployment goes up, then inflation should come down because then companies don't have to raise wages to compete for workers. There's more workers out there who need a job.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: And we got kind of a test of this back in the late '70s and early '80s. Inflation seemed to be getting out of control. Prices were rising up and up and up. And to get inflation under control, Paul Volcker - he was the head of the Federal Reserve at the time - raised interest rates all the way to 20 percent. By comparison, by the way, short-term interest rates right now are at 2 percent. But what Volcker did led to a weaker economy, and unemployment went up.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: All the way up to 10 percent. Inflation, though, did come down.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: And so everybody's wondering, is Chair Powell going to worry about inflation, and is he then going to keep raising interest rates to prevent inflation from spiking higher?</s>JAY POWELL: For me, at this time, does not raise concerns about too high inflation.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: Chair Powell is saying that even though unemployment is low and wage growth is rising, it doesn't necessarily mean that higher inflation will follow. So this relationship between inflation and jobs - even though the Phillips curve predicts it, Powell's not really seeing it.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Yeah, it's less curvy. So...</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Dr. Bernanke, is the Phillips curve dead?</s>BEN BERNANKE: To use a slang - economic jargon, this is an endogenous phenomenon (laughter).</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Endogenous phenomenon. That's exactly what - I was just thinking that. Basically, what Bernanke's saying is that the relationship between unemployment and inflation has changed.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: People saw that the Federal Reserve would raise interest rates really high if it needed to to bring inflation back down. And ever since then, inflation has stayed low.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: And here's the key. People and companies act accordingly because if they worried that inflation was going to be much higher in the future, they would spend more money now. And companies would raise prices to try to get ahead of the trend, and that would contribute to inflation going higher right now.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: But that's not happening. And what Ben Bernanke is saying is that it's precisely because of what the Fed did in the past that the link between low unemployment and high inflation is weaker than it used to be.</s>BEN BERNANKE: And that's the, quote, "endogenous" reason why the Phillips curve is so flat.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: So economists still strongly debate whether the Phillips curve is really dead or just resting. But if it is, then it was possibly killed by the people in this room - people with this job, Fed chair.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: In other words, it's endogenous.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Stacey Vanek Smith.</s>CARDIFF GARCIA, BYLINE: Cardiff Garcia, NPR News. |
President Trump visits the border in Texas to highlight security needs. In San Diego, hundreds of Customs and Border Protection agents echo the same line: the fence is not secure and a wall is needed. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: President Trump is taking his argument for a border wall to the border today with a visit to Texas. The president, we should say, has staked a lot on this wall. He's allowed a partial government shutdown to continue, impacting scores of federal employees. He walked out of a meeting with Democratic leaders yesterday, calling the meeting a total waste of time. And, of course, he made the wall the subject of his first prime-time address from the Oval Office.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: This barrier is absolutely critical to border security. It's also what our professionals at the border want and need.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: What professionals at the border want and need. Well, since the president's speech Tuesday, some of those border professionals have been talking to NPR's John Burnett, who has been out in the field with them. And John joins us from San Diego. Good morning, John.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Morning, David.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: So you rode along with some Border Patrol agents along the fence line in the mountains south of San Diego yesterday. This is the area where President Trump is talking about the need for a wall. What are you...</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Right.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: ...Seeing and hearing?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Well, I rode with two Border Patrol public affairs officers for seven hours. And a lot of what we saw and talked about relates exactly to what the president's asking for in border security. The San Diego sector out here is small, only 60 miles of land border, but it's just across from a major Mexican city, Tijuana. And the area used to be the nation's illegal crossing hot spot back in the '80s.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Today, this western-most border's a sort of poster child for bigger, taller, longer fences. And you can see the construction of a new, formidable 18-foot-tall barrier made of steel bollards with rebar and cement inside of them, a big steel anti-climb plate welded on top. And this replaces the flimsy, old sheet metal fence.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: It's safe to say what they showed me was a sales job for the construction of the Great Wall of Trump. And the chief patrol agent says where they have two layers of fence, he gets 90 percent operational control of the border.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: OK. So the Great Wall of Trump, as you're calling it. But there already is some fencing there. So what - if President Trump, you know, gets what he wants, what would this mean in the San Diego sector? How much new fencing would actually be there?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Right. So if you check with Homeland Security, they'll tell you they want 5 additional miles of new fencing. They already have 46 miles of fencing. It would be five more. And where would it go? The existing fence stretches all the way from the Pacific Ocean to Otay Mountain. And at one point yesterday, we were standing at the eastern end of the border fence, where it currently ends. You can see the international border rising steeply up the slope of Otay Mountain.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: And I was here three years ago on an earlier ride-along, and I remember the agent at the time telling me that that mountain is our deterrent - that they have agents on ATVs, in jeeps, who catch illegal crossers out in those rugged ravines. And yesterday, I asked Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Michael Scappechio, why do you now need a new fence to continue all the way up the mountain?</s>MICHAEL SCAPPECHIO: And it all comes down to resources. If the resources are available, it'll help us do our job better. If they're not available, we have to utilize terrain, such as Otay Mountain, as a deterrent, and we have to shift our resources, like our surveillance, like our manpower. If we can put a border barrier, we can utilize our manpower elsewhere.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: So what they're saying now is different from what they told me three years ago. They're saying a fence built across this mountain means they don't need to put agents out there to chase illegal crossers through the gullies. And remember that Border Patrol is chronically understaffed.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: I'm just thinking to that comment still. This sounds like a different argument than what you hear from President Trump - that there's a crisis at the border. You need a big wall. He's saying, yeah, if we have the money, a wall here, instead of a mountain, would allow us to shift manpower elsewhere. It's so interesting. I mean, it's - both arguments for a wall, but subtly different.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: So I guess I wonder what are these officials actually there saying about the president's comments that, you know, officials like them are clamoring for this?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Right. Well, I talked to Chief Patrol Agent Rodney Scott, and I asked him. So the fence is so expensive. You know, you already attained all this operational control between Tijuana and San Diego. Why do you need more fence out here in the outback where illegal traffic is less? And here's what he said.</s>RODNEY SCOTT: Customs and Border Protection has had this systematic plan that we've been acting on for years, building on infrastructure where we believe we need it. And all of a sudden, it got unbelievably political overnight, as opposed to what we're saying that we need.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: So I talked to line agents in South Texas, but they'll say there's too much emphasis on the wall these days, and it's just as important to have cameras and sensors and lights and manpower in the mix.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: And what does it feel like right now in Tijuana, John? It's a place that we've been paying so much attention to with a lot of migrants trying to come across.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Right. Well, what surprised me is nobody is being sent back. Remember, right before Christmas, there was this - they called it a historic measure that would force asylum-seekers to go back to Mexico and wait there while their cases are being resolved in U.S. immigration courts.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: And a senior administration official who's close to border security told me, this week, the Remain in Mexico rule has been suspended for now. He said the administration's working out diplomatic complexities with Mexico. And now Mexico's balking at having to handle so many poor immigrants waiting around their border cities for months.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: NPR's John Burnett in San Diego this morning. John, thanks.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: You bet, David. |
It's Day 18 of the partial government shutdown, and it's now the third-longest on record. In the 90s, it took President Clinton and House Speaker Gingrich a record 21 days to settle an impasse. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It is Day 18 of the partial federal government shutdown, making it one of the longest in history. Back in the 1990s, it took President Bill Clinton and the Republican Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich a record 21 days to settle an impasse. NPR's Don Gonyea looks back at how past shutdowns have been resolved and why it may prove harder this time.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Say it's 1984, October. You're wondering about job openings in the federal government. You dial a number.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: The Federal Job Information Center is now closed until further notice due to lack of appropriated funds.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: That tape aired on NPR more than 34 years ago, and that part of this story hasn't changed all that much. A partial government shutdown - services deemed non-essential stop. And something else holds true. Blame the other party. Here's then-President Ronald Reagan.</s>RONALD REAGAN: This has been typical of what has happened ever since we've been here. And you can lay this right on the majority party in the House of Representatives.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: But there are some big differences between those early government shutdowns and what we see today.</s>DAVID ROHDE: They tended to revolve around bargaining over, basically, routine governmental activities.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: That's David Rohde, a political scientist at Duke University. He says, back then, if Congress missed the deadline, then there'd be a short shutdown but with the understanding and expectation that a compromise could be readily found. But then came the fall and winter of 1995 and '96. Bill Clinton was president.</s>BILL CLINTON: The government is partially shutting down.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Republicans had control of the House for the first time in 40 years. Newt Gingrich was the speaker and wanted deep budget cuts. President Clinton said he was committed to a balanced budget but not using the Republicans' numbers.</s>BILL CLINTON: Congress has failed to pass the straightforward legislation necessary to keep the government running without imposing sharp hikes in Medicare premiums and deep cuts in education and the environment.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Gingrich responded...</s>NEWT GINGRICH: And we think all the president has to do is commit to a seven-year balanced budget with honest numbers and an honest scoring system.</s>DAVID ROHDE: That pair of shutdowns was for a different reason and had a different pattern than the ones that happened before.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: David Rohde of Duke says the clash was about ideology, the role of government. And there was no easy solution. The government partially closed for seven days. That was followed by a second 21-day shutdown, the longest to date, that ran into the new year. Eventually, it became clear that the public was not behind Gingrich. Senate leader Bob Dole, a fellow Republican, signaled the end in this floor speech on New Year's Eve.</s>BOB DOLE: We ought to end this. I mean, it's gotten to the point where it's a little ridiculous as far as this senator is concerned.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: The GOP paid a political price, and that shutdown was a cautionary tale for years. In fact, after that, there wasn't another shutdown until 2013, when Republicans used budget negotiations to try to defund the Affordable Care Act - Obamacare. It didn't work. Democrats, meanwhile, drove a very brief shutdown early last year over DACA legislation. They backed down quickly, which brings us to today. David Rohde says it's a lot like 1995 with one difference. Back then, he says, everyone was seeking the support of moderate and centrist voters.</s>DAVID ROHDE: But Trump's calculation, politically, is not about the center of the electorate. That's the difference.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: The president seems to be playing solely to his hard core base supporters. That makes negotiations even more difficult.</s>DON GONYEA, BYLINE: Don Gonyea, NPR News. |
A study shows that rating systems for online marketplaces are prone to inflation, because raters feel pressured to leave high scores. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK, so you have just hopped out of an Uber or a Lyft, for example. Let's say the ride has not really gone that well. You pop open the ride-sharing app to give a rating to the driver. You can choose anything from one to five stars. What you do next turns out to be subject to the laws of psychology.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: New social science research reveals a bias among many raters that produces pernicious effects. To explain, we are joined by NPR's social science correspondent Shankar Vedantam. Hey, Shankar - pernicious effects.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: (Laughter) Indeed, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK, so explain. What's the bias here?</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: Many people are hesitant to give drivers a bad rating. So the driver might have been rude. The car might have been dirty. You might have nearly gotten into a crash. Objectively, the ride might deserve a rating of one star out of five.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: But I was talking with John Horton. He's a business school professor at New York University. He told me what goes through many riders' minds as they decide what rating to give.</s>JOHN HORTON: There's quite a bit of evidence that people don't rate people harshly in these systems, even if they maybe had a bad experience or a not great experience just because they don't want to harm the other person. And you can kind of think, if you have a bad Uber ride, you know, you may be unhappy as a passenger. But you don't want to ruin a person's livelihood.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's so interesting because we've just had, like, a personal experience with an Uber or Lyft driver, and because of that, we're less likely to give them a bad rating.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: Exactly. So people understand that drivers who get poor ratings might get kicked off the platform. And you don't want one bad ride to lead to that. So instead of one or two stars, maybe you give three or four. Maybe you even give five. Any platform where you are rating people - from your professors, to someone on eBay, to Airbnb - potentially has this problem.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: Horton and his colleagues, Joe Golden and Apostolos Filippas, asked the question, what are the consequences of this kind of biased grading? They analyzed data from a large online platform with over a billion dollars in transactions. They find that when the platform tells users that the feedback is going to be private and that it won't be used to punish providers, users start to provide much more critical feedback. As Horton crunched the data, he realized that he is tempted to do the very same thing himself with his students, give them higher grades than they deserve.</s>JOHN HORTON: I have to give grades as a professor. And, you know, no one in the history of teaching I think has ever come in to complain about an A. When you give low grades, that's when it sort of becomes personally costly to you, where people want to meet and talk. And so kind of giving the high grades is in some ways the easier thing to do in most cases.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Fascinating. So it's just more of a burden, so they go the easier route. But Shankar, getting back to that example of the Uber or Lyft driver, what does it mean about me if I'm the person who's like, yeah, you almost killed me. You get two stars if not zero stars. I'm just a bad person? I'm not being empathetic.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: Well, here's the thing. I think many people believe they are being empathetic when they give the driver a very good rating for bad service. But Horton and his colleagues would actually argue, Rachel, that you are the kind of person who is the altruist. When you give five stars...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do tell. Do tell.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: ...When you give five stars to a bad driver who nearly gets you into a crash, you're exposing the next rider to a certain elevated risk. When you look at it this way, the people who give accurate ratings deal with the immediate backlash of the discomfort of giving a low rating to a bad driver. But they provide better information to the next rider or the next professor. It's easier to pass the bad apple along. You, Rachel, are the altruist.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's the bottom line I wanted to get to. Shankar Vedantam is NPR's social science correspondent. He's also the host of a podcast exploring the unseen patterns in human behavior called Hidden Brain. Shankar, thanks so much.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: Thank you, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I'll give you five stars, by the way, five stars.</s>SHANKAR VEDANTAM, BYLINE: Oh, thank you. |
A Saudi woman says she was fleeing her abusive family and has been stopped in Thailand. Noel King talks Phil Robertson, who is deputy Asia director for Human Rights Watch. | NOEL KING, HOST: We're following a developing story out of Thailand today. A young Saudi Arabian woman who says she fled her family in hear of her life is now under the U.N. refugee agency's protection. Rahaf Mohammed Alqunun is 18 years old. She flew to Thailand, then planned to fly onward to Australia and seek asylum. Thai authorities had her detained at an airport hotel. She's since tweeted that she's heard her father has arrived in Thailand and that it, quote, "worried and scared her." Phil Robertson has spoken to this young woman. He's deputy Asia director for Human Rights Watch. Good morning.</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: Good morning.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So this young woman was supposed to be put on a flight to Kuwait, where her family is vacationing. That did not happen this morning. So where do things stand for her right now?</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: She is saying that she wants to apply for political asylum. She is deathly afraid of going back to Saudi Arabia. She believes that if she does that - she said multiple times that she will be killed. And she has a long list of abuses that she's suffered previously to point to, to back that contention up.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: You've been talking to her. What specifically is she saying about the abuse within her family?</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: It was both psychological and physical abuse. The abuse included beatings, included things like, you know, confining her for cutting her hair or for demanding certain things that she wanted to do. She's also said very clearly that she is not enamored of Islam, does not want to wear the hijab and does not want to go to pray. And so, of course, that puts her in a very dangerous situation in Saudi Arabia potentially with the government, in addition to her family.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Hence, probably, the application for political asylum, which is less to do with family stuff and more to do with, is this person in danger in their country? - what kind of spirits is she in?</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: She's determined. She's frankly quite courageous. But she's tired.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Yeah.</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: And she's hungry. She's locked herself in this room since about 8:30 in the morning Bangkok time. And so it is - it's been an all-day ordeal. And it's been highs and lows. There's been people at her door. There's been people trying to trick her, saying open the door. It's Human Rights Watch. Open the door. It's UNHCR. You know, there's all sorts of games being played.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Which brings us to a big question - what is the government there in Bangkok saying? And what is the Saudi government saying at this point?</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: Well, the Saudi government is trying to claim that they have nothing to do with this and that this is all somebody else's doing. But the reality is it was their official who met the plane, you know, as she got off the plane and seized her passport. You know, why that official was allowed to walk around in a closed area of the Bangkok airport is beyond me. But that's happened. For the Thais, they're sort of changing their story now as the pressure comes on. The latest is that the immigration commissioner says he's not going to send her back. But, previously, he was saying yes. It's the family member. Why's she so scared? She should go back now.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So you'll be keeping a close eye on this one, I imagine. Phil Robertson, deputy Asia director for Human Rights Watch, thank you so much.</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: Thank you. |
At the time she mentioned killing a deer, the Oklahoma woman was on the dating app Bumble. The guy chatting with her about the illegal deer kill just happened to be a game warden. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: Good morning. I'm David Greene. A woman in Oklahoma was using the dating app Bumble bragging about killing a deer. It was an illegal kill, which might not have mattered much except the guy chatting with her is a game warden. According to the Oklahoma Game Wardens Facebook page, they went to the woman's house to catch her. The wardens flashed a little sense of humor, using the hashtag #DateNight. The woman paid fines and might not be going on any hunting dates anytime soon. You're listening to MORNING EDITION. |
President Trump's national security adviser John Bolton will be in Turkey on Tuesday to discuss the terms of the withdrawal from Syria. How are Kurds and Syrians responding? | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: President Trump's national security adviser, John Bolton, was in Turkey today. He met his Turkish counterpart, but left without seeing Turkey's president, who is criticizing U.S. adjustments to the plan to get out of neighboring Syria. President Trump said last month the U.S. would quickly withdraw troops. Bolton has announced some conditions that need to be met first, which the Turkish president does not like at all.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Ruth Sherlock was recently in northeastern Syria. She's been covering this story a long time, and she's on the line. Hi, Ruth.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Hello.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How has the U.S. position evolved?</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Well, so essentially what's happened in the last few days is that John Bolton has come out and said, well, actually, we're not going to withdraw as quickly as the president might have - well, he didn't directly contradict the president. But he said we are going to withdraw, but imposed conditions saying, well, actually, we need to protect our Kurdish allies with whom we've been fighting ISIS in northeast Syria. And we need to remain until ISIS is completely defeated. Of course, that's different to what President Trump said initially, which was that ISIS has been defeated and that U.S. troops would be withdrawn very quickly.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And we can see here where Recep Tayyip Erdogan would be upset - the Turkish president - because Turkey wants to go after Syrian Kurds. They see the Kurds as enemies, as rivals, and yet they are allies of the United States. And the U.S. wants to protect them before the U.S. would withdraw.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Well, that's exactly right. That's what Bolton has said in the last few days, that they need to create some kind of an agreement that would protect the Kurdish forces. But then now, Turkey seems to have hit back today, as you said, by - with this apparent snub in his refusal to meet with Bolton even though he did meet with a counterpart. He says that this new suggestion of protecting these allies actually differs from what was promised to him in a phone call with President Trump on December 14.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: He said that Turkey had pledged to take on the fight against ISIS and actually take control of this area, and that this was something that was - that he was - that he talked about with President Trump. But he said that - Erdogan said that despite the fact that we reached a clear agreement with Mr. Trump, different voices have raised - have been raised from within different echelons of the U.S. administration. So he's implying a split within the administration on what should happen next.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Ruth, help us understand what Syrians are thinking about this, specifically these Syrian Kurds who fought alongside the United States, fought against ISIS, control a portion of Syria, are trying to hold off ISIS - the remnants of ISIS and also hold off Bashar al-Assad, who controls much of the rest of the country. Is it clear to them what the U.S. position is, given that the president has said different things and the president's advisers have said different things?</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Certainly not when we met with them. And in recent conversations, they seem to be trying to kind of understand what was happening in Washington. They were so confused, at one point, officials actually asked me as a member of a U.S. media organization what I thought about what the president was saying.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Certainly, today, they've come out with a much clearer statement, saying - we would not - you know, they would be ready for any Turkish advance. They would not accept a kind of Turkish-controlled move by Turkey to control the parts of Syria they have won over from ISIS. They've lost a lot of blood in that fight. And they say that Turkey is a bigger threat to them than ISIS. And if they have to, they would rather strike a deal with the Syrian government to take over this area than with Turkey.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Thanks very much. That's NPR's Ruth Sherlock. |
The U.S. trade war with China has cost farmers billions. Government bailouts have helped keep many farms solvent, but thoughts are turning to this year's planting season. | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The U.S. trade war with China did not happen overnight. It reflects long-term concerns, and it developed over a number of months. But in farming terms, U.S. tariffs and Chinese retaliation has come quite abruptly. China has targeted U.S. soybean exports. And the nature of the farm economy makes it harder for American farmers to adjust. They are preparing to plant more soybeans even though there are now too many of them. Harvest Public Media's Madelyn Beck explains.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: I'm in central Illinois in a 200-foot-long machine shed. On the far end, you can hear a combine running as a mechanic tries to figure out what's wrong with it. On this end, farmer Grant Strom is describing his 80-foot-long planter.</s>GRANT STROM: Then the seed actually drops right behind here. This is - so the seed tube comes down here, and this is called a shoe.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: Strom farms about 5,000 acres with his family in Knox County, Ill. His two planters will need several weeks of maintenance over the winter to be ready to put seeds in the ground. And like it or not, he's already had to order his seeds. Even while across the country, piles of harvested soybeans sit in storage awaiting buyers, Grant Strom plans to grow more soybeans this year.</s>GRANT STROM: I think a lot of farms are like ours, where - far as planning, like, a crop rotation - are we're going to plant corn, soybeans? - I mean, I'd say 90 percent of our acres are pretty well fixed what we're going to do year in, year out.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: A good crop rotation can help boost yields. And he buys his seeds at early bird discounts. For Strom, his mixture of corn and soybean seed cost at an average $80 to $90 an acre. Multiply that by 5,000 acres, and you're quickly approaching a half-million-dollar seed bill. A lot of Midwest farmers are in the same difficult position. If tariffs with China worsen, they can't make a big shift and just trade out soybeans for other crops. China did start buying some soybeans in December, but it was less than 5 percent what it bought from the U.S. the year before. Most farmers are risking to stick with what worked for them last year. Agronomist Stephanie Porter works with Golden Harvest and helps farmers plan for their next crop.</s>STEPHANIE PORTER: I think a lot of farmers are keeping - that I've talked to so far - are keeping to what they know. This isn't the first time they've struggled.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: Porter stresses that while every situation is different, all farmers depend on buyers for commodities. And that's where the trade war really hurts. This isn't lost on banks. Mike Shane is an agriculture banker and lender with F&M Bank in Galesburg, Ill. He keeps an eye on trade and crop costs but also monitors the situation of each farm he lends to. He says he won't cut them off just because they had a bad year due to trade policy or crop costs, but...</s>MIKE SHANE: You know, if a guy shows multiple years of losing money, we want to say, what's going on? We need to stop this, or we're probably going to have to stop lending money.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: Some farmers have been helped by higher crop yields and Washington bailouts. The Trump administration announced in August that it would be spending billions to help farmers suffering from China's tariffs on ag products - namely, soybean farmers.</s>MIKE SHANE: I think that payment was the difference between people making money and not making money this year.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: More bailout money was announced in December. In total, it's about $9.6 billion going to ag producers that suffered from China's retaliatory tariffs. More than $7 billion of that is slated for soybean farmers. But for farmers who need help filling out application forms for federal aid before the January 15 deadline, they may run into this.</s>COMPUTER-GENERATED VOICE: Sorry. Nobody is available at this time.</s>MADELYN BECK, BYLINE: That's the sound of the government shutdown, which has left many federal offices empty and which is stalling aid payments. There's also no guarantee of bailout money next season if the trade war continues. For NPR News, I'm Madelyn Beck in Galesburg, Ill.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That story comes to us from Harvest Public Media, a reporting collaboration in the Midwest and Plains states. |
The closure is in its 17th day. National Security Adviser John Bolton says U.S. withdrawal from Syria is conditional on the defeat of ISIS. And, a Saudi teenager's Twitter account captures attention. | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Let's examine the power of a phrase.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Yes. The phrase is national emergency, and President Trump is talking about declaring one. He can invoke emergency powers, and he says he might do that to order construction of a wall at the U.S.-Mexico border. Here's the president describing the situation at the border on Sunday.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And we have an absolute crisis - and - of criminals and gang members coming through. It is national security. It's a national emergency.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So do emergency powers let him order the construction of a wall?</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Here to help us answer that question is NPR White House correspondent Scott Horsley. Hi there, Scott.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Let's work through this. What are the president's emergency powers?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: The president does have some power under the National Emergencies Act to shift money around, for example, from one Defense Department budget line to another.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. So he can take existing money and move it into a different location. But then the question is, does the president alone get to decide when there is an emergency? Because you can look at 20 years of border crossings at the U.S.-Mexico border and find many, many years where crossings were much higher than they are now.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: That's certainly going to be a question if the president were to try to invoke emergency powers in this instance - just what is the nature of the emergency? Under this act, the president still has to consult with Congress. The idea is to give the power - give the president flexibility to act in the case of an actual emergency. It's not to cut Congress out of the budgeting process.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, because this is not just shifting troops to a location or ordering some agency to do something unusual. This is actually spending money, which is Congress's prerogative.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: That's right. And certainly, if the president were to try to use this power in this instance, he would face legal challenges. The chairman of the House Armed Services Committee has already suggested it would be an abuse of power. One question is, what military projects would the president stop funding in order to bankroll his border wall? And then, as I say, what, exactly, is the nature of the emergency? In that cut you heard from the weekend, the president was talking about crime and gang members. On Friday, in his Rose Garden news conference, he actually raised the specter of terrorists.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: But the administration has really stretched its own credibility here. On Fox News, over the weekend, Chris Wallace called out White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders over terrorism claims that just have no basis in fact. What we do have at the border is a surge in families from Central America presenting themselves - in most cases, turning themselves in to Border Patrol agents. And because of U.S. law and court cases, it is difficult to deport those families or to detain them for an extended period of time. But that's a challenge that a wall would not really address.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. So we have this challenge. We have the president's talk, at least, of a state of emergency. And it sounds like, if he were to invoke that, it would have to be challenged in Congress, be challenged in court and find out how that played out. This is all, however, sort of backdrop to negotiations to get funding for a border wall directly. That's what the president wants, anyway, as part of negotiations with members of Congress to end a partial government shutdown. There were talks over the weekend. Are the two sides making any progress?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Not really. Even before Sunday's session led by the vice president, the president told reporters he didn't expect anything to come of it. So this really seemed more about giving the appearance of action rather than the reality of any effort to resolve things.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Scott, I ran into a federal worker over the holidays who said, well, I'm furloughed. There must be lots of people who are in that situation, other people who are working without pay. How will people beyond the federal government continue to feel the effects of this shutdown if it continues a while?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: You know, Steve, this Friday is supposed to be payday for the federal government. That would be the first paycheck that those workers miss if it comes to that. If this goes on, we may begin to see tax refund checks delayed. Food stamps are OK this month but not into February.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Scott, thanks for the update.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: You're welcome.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Scott Horsley.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: All right. The president is holding onto his border wall demand, but his administration is changing its approach to Syria.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: That's right. President Trump says U.S. troops won't leave Syria until ISIS is, quote, "gone." That is a change. Just before Christmas, the president said the mission against ISIS was over.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We have won against ISIS. We've beaten them, and we've beaten them badly. We've taken back the land. And now it's time for our troops to come back home.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: OK. National security adviser John Bolton has added some conditions to that. He says around 2,000 U.S. troops will not come home until they are met. First, ISIS has to be gone. And second, Kurdish fighters - U.S. allies - have to be protected.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Karoun Demirjian is a national - covers national security for The Washington Post. And she's in our studios. Good morning.</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: Good morning.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Is this really the policy now?</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: Well, this is the shifting policy, as we've seen - as we're seeing it play out in real time. John Bolton is - given the clearest assessment yet of what we will be doing to pull out of Syria, which will not be immediate. The president suggested, when he made this statement last month, that it would be happening right away. Now we know that it's getting scaled back. This is a sign that his advisers are having more influence over trying to pull him back from this policy, which really shocked everybody around him, allies and critics alike.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: But this is why I want to be really clear about this. John Bolton is among the officials who stated a completely different policy shortly before President Trump announced his policy in December. Are we sure that what Bolton says this time is really what the president wants and will stick with?</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: It seems like what they're trying to do is not completely change what the president said he wanted to do but explain it away and then pirouette around what the president said - we're getting out of Syria. If you talk to any of Trump's surrogates at this point and his allies, they won't say, oh, we're not getting out of Syria. The president was wrong. They'll say, well, he never said exactly how we were going to get out of Syria. So what we're doing is we're having a methodical conversation about how we'll do it. We're setting these conditions. The most clear contradiction is, of course, that the - one of the conditions, that we'll wait until ISIS has been eradicated from the country, is exactly what President Trump said had happened when he announced this policy. So it's clearly that his advisers are kind of pulling him back from the brink on this one. And the president does not seem to be outwardly refuting them at this point. So it's a sign of - maybe there's some shifting going on, but it's definitely a contradiction.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Is it your sense - granting that things can change again, is it your sense that the policy has changed all the way back? Because now the United States is in Syria for some considerable amount of time until some difficult objectives are met.</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: It's unclear, right? At this point, we've seen reports that the period of time is lengthening. First we were talking about a 30-day pullout. Then it was four months. Now there's no timeline associated with it at all. If that continues, then, sure, we're talking about a reversal. But at this point, we don't know, right? Because the national security adviser has set out these conditions. This gives them some cover, so to speak, I suppose, for what happens going forward. But we don't actually know the details of what this plan is going to be or what types of agreements or - you know, it was eradicating ISIS and making sure the Kurds were protected. It's not clear to the extent to which they need guarantees on that from others to say, OK, we're there. Good. And that's been part of the problem.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Very briefly, how is the president's national security team changing and his advice changing? Because Jim Mattis, the defense secretary, Brett McGurk, special envoy to combat ISIS, and another top official have all resigned over this policy chain.</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: Right. And there are concerns, especially around Capitol Hill, that the president will put a bunch of yes men in their place. But as of right now, you've got Shanahan still taking over for Mattis.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Patrick Shanahan, right.</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: Exactly - who was his deputy. And everybody kind of on hold because anybody who comes in that the president appoints will have to go through a confirmation process. But there's concern from Democrats that the adults have left the room, and right now the people around the president are trying to prove, well, that's not true.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Karoun Demirjian, thanks very much for coming by.</s>KAROUN DEMIRJIAN: Thank you.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: She's with The Washington Post.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Now the case of a Saudi teenager and her Twitter account that is capturing international attention.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: That's right. This morning, there are tens of thousands of posts with the hashtag #SaveRahaf. They're talking about 18-year-old Rahaf Mohammed Alqunun, who has spent the last day barricaded in a hotel room in Bangkok. She says her family is abusive, and if she goes back to them, she's afraid she's going to be killed.</s>RAHAF MOHAMMED ALQUNUN: I'm not leaving my room until I see UNHCR. I want asylum.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: That is from a video that she posted to Twitter yesterday. Now, this morning, authorities in Thailand are saying they won't deport her against her will, but activists are still watching this very closely.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Human Rights Watch now tells NPR that activists have filed an injunction to stop the Thai government from deporting her. Reporter Michael Sullivan is in Bangkok. He's following this story. He joins us by Skype. Hi there, Michael.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: Hi, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How did she get away from her family in the first place?</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: Well, from what she told Human Rights Watch and a few others who spoke with her, she saw an opportunity and she took it, maybe even planned it in advance. But she was on a trip with her family to Kuwait, and Kuwait doesn't have the same rule about a woman traveling by herself, which is why she could get on a plane by herself, and she did. And that Bangkok was just a transit point, that her real destination was Australia and asylum there. But she didn't get the chance to because when she got off the plane here in Bangkok, she was met by a guy - it's unclear whether Saudi or Kuwaiti - who took her passport and later came back with Thai authorities, who then told her she'd be sent back to Kuwait this morning. She was supposed to leave on an 11 a.m. flight, but it took off without her after she barricaded herself in her room in the transit hotel at the airport, tweeting up a storm, asking for help.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: You're pointing out that if she had tried to leave from a Saudi Arabian airport, somebody might have said, wait a minute. You're a woman traveling alone. We don't - we frown on that. There might have been a problem. But in this case, she was outside the country. Now she's in Thailand. What kind of pressure is on Thailand to keep her from being sent back?</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: I don't think there's a lot of pressure on the Saudi government because of - I mean, there wasn't a lot after Jamal Khashoggi's murder, right? But on the Thai side, maybe a little different story. I think they're a little more sensitive to pressure. And several European governments have expressed their concern already. On the other hand, this kind of thing, Steve, happens often enough here in Thailand that human rights groups are really frustrated by it. In the past couple of years, Thailand has sent back Uighurs and other dissidents to China when Beijing has asked. And just a few months ago, the Thais arrested a soccer player from Bahrain who had been critical of a powerful government official. He'd already been granted asylum in Australia and had come here on his honeymoon, but he was arrested anyway. Here's Phil Robertson, the deputy Asia director for Human Rights Watch.</s>PHIL ROBERTSON: I'm hoping that Thailand will recognize that if they proceed on the course that Saudi Arabia wants them to take, they will burn a very dark mark on their international reputation.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK, Michael, what is Thailand saying, and what are the Saudis saying about this?</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: Basically, they both blame her. The Saudi Embassy says they had nothing to do with it, that she was detained by the Thais because she didn't have a return ticket. That's a little confusing since she told Human Rights Watch she was just transiting in Bangkok. But it also seems that she may have told some news outlets that the guy who took her passport tricked her, telling her he could help her get a visa here. And she'd been planning on spending a couple of days here until she went on to Australia. Either way, the Thais were going along with the Saudi version of things until late this afternoon. Now they're saying she won't be returned against her will. Let's see.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Michael, thanks very much for the update.</s>MICHAEL SULLIVAN, BYLINE: You're welcome, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Michael Sullivan in Bangkok. |
Trump will deliver an address as the government shutdown persists. Allies ponder mixed signals on when U.S. troops will leave Syria. In Florida, roughly 1.4 million ex-felons regain the right to vote. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Any politician can give a speech. A few can be seen live on TV. But only the president can address the nation from the Oval Office as President Trump will do tonight.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The tradition goes back to 1947, when most Americans did not yet have TVs. Harry Truman did it then about a food crisis in Europe. Richard Nixon, in turbulent times, spoke repeatedly from the Oval Office, including his resignation in 1974. Reagan spoke from his Oval Office desk. George W. Bush addressed the nation on 9/11. And tonight, the subject of President Trump's address is his demand that Congress budget money for a border wall. His demand triggered a partial government shutdown.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR White House correspondent Tamara Keith joins us this morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, Tam.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So does giving an address from the Oval Office tonight mean President Trump has more or less leverage right now in these shutdown negotiations?</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Well, President Trump has a problem, which is that some share of the American public - a large share of the American public - wanted him, even before the shutdown began, to make a compromise on the wall. And if he is going to get his wall funding, which seems like a mighty big if at this point, he has to convince the American public that there is a crisis along the southern border and that that crisis can be solved by a wall. And thus far, the administration has had some difficulty connecting those dots and making that case. And so that is the case that President Trump has asked for seven or eight minutes of prime-time TV to make.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I want to get to the facts of that in just a second. But first off, Democrats are agitating to have their say, though, right? If the president is going to speak from the Oval Office, Democrats want to be able to respond to his argument. Are they're going to get that time?</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: It's not clear yet, but they are certainly asking for it. Here's a quote from a joint statement. "Now that the television networks have decided to air the president's address - which, if his past statements are any indication, will be full of malice and misinformation - Democrats must immediately be given equal time." That was from Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. If they were to get that time, I think we have a pretty good idea of what they might say. This is Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer from over the weekend.</s>CHUCK SCHUMER: Democrats and some Republicans are asking President Trump not to hold hostage millions of innocent Americans.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And let's return, Tam, to the facts on the ground because this is really what is complicating this whole issue. The president and his administration insist there is a crisis. You talk to lawmakers, sheriffs, mayors along the border, you get a very different picture. And even the numbers are in dispute. The administration keeps banding about this number, insisting thousands of known or suspected terrorists have come across the southern border. That's just not true. There's no evidence to that effect. The vast majority of those people are coming through airports, not across the border. Right?</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Yeah, that's right. And most of them are getting stopped in airports, some not even before they get to the United States, in fact. So we - in this briefing that was held yesterday with the vice president and the Homeland Security secretary, reporters were asking, what's up with your numbers? You're giving numbers of thousands of people, potential terrorists. And they don't seem to wash with reality.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: And the Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said - well, you know, in terms of who's actually arrested at the border, that is classified information. We can't tell you that number. And it would come from the Department of Justice anyway. So they are not giving that number. But NBC News is reporting that it's only six in the last year.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Very different than a number of 4,000, as Sarah Sanders has repeatedly said. Meanwhile, the president says he wants to declare a state of emergency. If Congress doesn't give him the money, he's going to do that. Are we going to hear him talk about that tonight?</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: We don't know for sure. But we know that the White House is considering it, that lawyers are looking into it and the president is seriously considering declaring a state of emergency. Whether that happens tonight or some other time isn't clear. The White House says they want that to be sort of a last resort and they'd rather have negotiations bear fruit.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Tamara Keith. Thanks so much, Tam.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: You're welcome.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: National Security Adviser John Bolton is on a trip. He is in Turkey trying to clarify when and how the U.S. will pull its troops out of Syria.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Bolton has said American troops will stay in Syria until ISIS is eradicated and until Turkey promises not to attack Kurdish fighters who have been U.S. allies. That comes weeks after President Trump promised to pull out from northern Syria very quickly, reportedly in as little as 30 days.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Ruth Sherlock was recently in northeastern Syria, where U.S. troops are. And she's tracked how U.S. allies there are watching all this unfold.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Good morning, Ruth.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So Steve just alluded to the kind of back-and-forth with all the statements on this. Can you walk us through what has transpired, what we've been hearing on this thus far?</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Yeah. So President Trump said, on December 19, that ISIS was defeated. And then, to quote him, that the U.S. troops are "all coming back, and they're coming back now." But now military officials seem to have talked the president out of pulling out too quickly. They never agreed with his decision.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: And as you said, speaking in Israel, John Bolton, Trump's national security adviser, said, well, we are going to pull out but only once ISIS is defeated and not until the interests of our local allies - that's the Kurdish-led groups that have been fighting ISIS alongside the U.S. - are protected. The president himself seems to have walked this back slightly. After initially declaring ISIS defeated, he now says some U.S. troops will remain at least until ISIS is gone. So this could take months or longer.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: I suppose we should note, just to be complete, that both the president and John Bolton insist their position has not changed at all, although it would appear that it certainly has.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Right. You know, you could say this seems to be some kind of a face-saving measure, whereby they're trying to stick with the idea that U.S. troops will withdraw. But now the timeline of that is much less clear. And they're insisting that they need to protect these Kurdish allies.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how do they do that, though, Ruth? I mean, how do they protect the Kurds if they're going to leave?</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Well, that is the question. A lot of this depends on Turkey. Turkey considers these Kurdish militias that now rule this part of Syria as connected to militants in Turkey that it thinks are terrorists. And after President Trump's original announcement, they threatened to attack this part of Syria. John Bolton is in Turkey today to discuss all this and says that, you know, the U.S. won't leave until these Kurdish allies are protected.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: President Erdogan of Turkey is gunning to be able to take over these parts of Syria. He presented that in an op-ed in The New York Times yesterday, saying, you know, they could run the area through local allies on the ground. But you know, it's very - you know - but that's something that, in a further plot twist, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says might actually be on the cards because President Trump and President Erdogan have talked about this. But this is, of course, something that the Kurds may never go for.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. I mean, I imagine the Kurds would take issue with that.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they see Turkey as a bigger threat than ISIS. And they've even been talking about potentially striking a deal with the Syrian regime if they have to strike a deal with somebody to be able to keep having some control of this area. And certainly, from speaking with Kurdish officials, it seems they would be much more interested in talking to the regime about this than Turkey.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Ruth Sherlock, reporting this morning from Beirut.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, Ruth, thanks as always. Appreciate it.</s>RUTH SHERLOCK, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. We're going to focus in on Florida now because there's a big change taking place in that state today. As many as 1.4 million convicted felons are set to regain the right to vote. The measure comes from an amendment that was passed by 65 percent of Florida voters in November.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Election supervisors say that today they begin registering people who, under the old law, were barred from voting at all. Critics of this measure, including the Governor-elect Rick (ph) DeSantis, say the state legislature must pass a bill that defines the terms of the amendment, which would delay implementation for a few months. So what happens next?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. Let's ask NPR's Greg Allen, who has been following this story, joining us now from Florida.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, Greg.</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what is happening today? I mean, how many people are actually going to get registered to vote? Do we know?</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: Well, we'll see how many people show up. There's a lot of interest in this. This campaign has been going on for quite some time, and it definitely goes into effect today. Supervisors of election in Florida's 67 counties said they'll begin registering voters who are former felons who've served their time. If you have a felony conviction, you must have completed the sentence plus any probation and parole, and this doesn't apply to anyone who is convicted of murder or a felony sexual offense.</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: But there are still lots of questions, though, about whether court costs and restitution judgments have been paid and who checks on that, also, exactly which felony convictions still disqualify a person from voting. And these are all some of the reasons that the new governor, Ron DeSantis, says he believes the legislature will have to pass a measure to lay out some guidelines for all this. But that wouldn't be until March, at the earliest, when the legislature's back. But in the meantime, people will be registering to vote today.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I understand you've gotten to talk with some people who are going to get their right to vote again. What have they been telling you?</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: Well, you know, I think this is such an important day for folks who worked - this is a law that's been on the books for 150 years. And people have fought for years to overturn it. They finally were successful. You know, as you say, 65 percent of the voters approved it. That's more people that voted for any candidate in the last election.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Wow.</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: So a very - passed by a large margin. That's people in every community in Florida. And one of the people affected is Yraida Guanipa, who's a former felon who worked for years on this issue. I spoke to her yesterday, and she said even she's nervous about it.</s>YRAIDA GUANIPA: I talked to my husband. He says, you better wait until March. You better wait until what the governor says.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So there's still a lot of questions, huh?</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: Well, yeah. I mean, the state election officials say they no longer are checking new voters against a felony database so no one's unfairly disqualified. But when you fill out a form, you must affirm that you're eligible. So some are worried that signing a voter registration form mistakenly before the rules are clear could potentially be a criminal offense. Election supervisors say it's unlikely anyone would be prosecuted in such a case, though.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, Florida is a key swing state in the presidential election, where it seems it's never too early to talk about Florida and elections. Could this have any kind of impact in 2020 as you look forward?</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: Well, you know, adding hundreds of thousands of potentially new voters to the rolls is certainly likely to have an impact. Some of the organizers believe that it will spur interest in a lot of new policies, maybe criminal justice reform, something that's kind of largely stalled in Florida up till now.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Greg Allen for us this morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Greg, thanks. We appreciate it.</s>GREG ALLEN, BYLINE: You're welcome. |
The woman knits in different bands of color depending on when the train arrives. Dark gray means the train is up to five minutes late. Red means the train is delayed by more than 30 minutes. | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Good morning, I'm Steve Inskeep. A German woman rides a commuter train each day. This gives her time for knitting, so she's been knitting a scarf with different bands of color depending on how much the train is delayed. Dark grey means it's only up to five minutes late, pink for up to 30 minutes and red for the many days the train is delayed by more than half an hour. One section of the scarf is just solid red where the train was late daily for weeks. It's MORNING EDITION. |
President Trump addressed border security as the partial federal shutdown over his demand for border wall funding drags on. We hear reaction from people in the Mexican border town of Reynosa. | DAVID GREENE, HOST: It's been about two years since he took office, and last night, President Trump gave his first prime-time address from the Oval Office. He wanted to explain why he wants a wall on the border with Mexico.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: This barrier is absolutely critical to border security. It's also what our professionals at the border want and need. This is just common sense.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: The president said there is a humanitarian and security crisis. He spoke about drugs coming over the border, also Americans killed by people in the country illegally. And we are fact-checking the address on the program this morning, but we're going to turn right now to the other side of the border to see how the president's message was received. NPR's Carrie Kahn is in Reynosa, Mexico. And Carrie, what is that - right across the Rio Grande from Texas, right?</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: Yes, right across the border.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: So where did you watch this presidential address, and who were you watching with?</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: I was at a migrant shelter, and it's right on the banks of the Rio Grande. You could actually see the lights of McAllen, Texas, right from the shelter. There's people from all over Central America there, and there were many deported Mexicans, too, there. The director asked the women - the men and women if they wanted to watch President Trump's speech, and about 20 dragged folding chairs into a small office and lined them up in front of a big-screen TV. They don't have cable at the shelter, but they were able to get a broadcast signal from across the river and watch the speech with Spanish interpretation dubbed over on the U.S. network, Univision.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Interesting to watch this from that side of the border. So how were people reacting?</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: You know, they were pretty stone-faced during President Trump's speech. Many shook their heads disapprovingly, you know, when the president said more of his disparaging comments about immigrants, especially when he talked about illegal aliens bringing drugs and committing murder and violent crimes in the U.S. But when the Democrats spoke, there were more audible responses. And then at the end, they - when they finished, they - everyone broke into applause.</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: One woman, a 51-year-old woman from Honduras, Maria Alfaro, she was really struck by the president's comments about violence women experience during the trek north, especially in Mexico. She said she was a crime victim in southern Mexico, and if the president understands what she's gone through to get to the U.S., why doesn't he have compassion for her and allow her into the country? She said she's fleeing violence back home and death threats and will come into the U.S. legally.</s>MARIA ALFARO: (Speaking Spanish).</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: She said she has proof of her asylum claim, and she'll go through the port of entry here at McAllen, Texas.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: You mentioned that Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer giving the Democratic response and also accusing the president of keeping the government in the United States shut down over this, which has been so much part of the theme in the conversation here in the U.S. Has that come up in Mexico, or is this whole issue seen in a different way?</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: I think some people understand the politics going on across the border, but, you know, they're just looking at it through their personal experience, right here, right now, after this long trek they've made to the border. Many just expressed dismay. They kept saying why is the president so against Hispanics, as they put it. They don't understand all of his rhetoric. They say they're just coming to work and not cause harm.</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: I spoke with several Mexicans who've been deported for various reasons and want to get back to jobs and families they've had in the U.S. You know, this one man was deported after 20 years living in Tennessee. He says he himself was a crime victim and just wants to get back to a good construction job he had there.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: Any other moments stand out to you in the president's address?</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: I guess, you know, the repeated claims of crime and drug smuggling by immigrants stands out, especially since, historically, the number of illegal immigrants coming across the southwest border is at an all-time low if you compare it to, like, a decade ago. Yes, the number of families with kids from Central America is on the rise, but, historically, the numbers, you know, just don't show this huge crisis here. And like you said, our own fact-checkers at npr.org are breaking down those numbers and those claims, also the ones about crime.</s>DAVID GREENE, HOST: NPR's Carrie Kahn in Reynosa, Mexico. Thanks, Carrie.</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: You're welcome. |
Lonnie Ali, wife of legendary boxer Muhammad Ali, talks about the years she's spent caring for her husband, who suffers from Parkinson's disease. She has teamed up with Parkinson's Unity Walk and Valeant Pharmaceuticals International to champion the "Fight for MORE" campaign. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: As a fighter, Muhammad Ali left an indelible mark on America's cultural landscape. But for the past 20 years, he's been locked in a fight of his life with Parkinson's disease.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: As they say, behind every good man is a great woman. In Muhammad Ali's case, it's his wife of over 20 years, Lonnie Ali. She's been his primary caregiver during most of their marriage and is now, for the first time, speaking out about her experiences at his side. She's teamed up with the Fight For MORE campaign to help educate patients and caregivers about all aspects of Parkinson's disease and treatment. Lonnie, welcome.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, is this a road that you ever expected to travel and how hard has it been on you?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): You know what? When I married Muhammad, he had Parkinson's disease, so it wasn't something that was unexpected. I will say it's been a different journey. And it's not one that has been real tumultuous, but it's been an experience - it's been a learning experience for me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I can imagine that because of all the things he's done in his life and continues to do, this has been difficult for him and also must put a strain on how he sees himself and how you can deal with any emotional issues for yourself and him. How do you deal with the moments where you're down, where he's down?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): You know, the one important thing that I will say to anyone who has a caregiver is to keep a positive attitude. Any time you find out that someone that's close to you, a loved one, a close friend, a relative, has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, just don't think the worst and realize that there is help out there. There is research going on. There's all kind of treatment options that are available. There's support. And, really, with regards to the neurological degenerative diseases, this is one of the most promising cures for diseases for - with Parkinson's disease.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): With regards to ourselves of, you know, when we get down and low - you know, we probably have moments, but not many, because we are a very positive people. We really look forward to what we can do and what we - and not what we can't do. And Muhammad is just a fighter, you know?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): This whole campaign, Fight For MORE, is so appropriately named. I mean, for me to be associated, you know, I really have to thank Valeant Pharmaceuticals for asking me to be the face of this campaign and giving me the opportunity to share with thousands of caregivers out there, of Parkinson patients, my experiences and what I have learned.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tell me more about your fight, and why you took on this mission, and what you're hoping to do.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): My fight is with the Fight For MORE campaign. As I said, it's a national educational campaign that hopes to empower the thousands of caregivers out there taking care of Parkinson patients with knowledge, resources, opportunity to connect with one another and form a Parkinson's caregiver community, to give them a source and a basis of where to go if somebody has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in your family or you know somebody. This is like one of the first steps, you know, to go to this Web site that's associated with this campaign. And that Web site address is www.fightformore.com, and learn more not only about the disease, but where you should go to get information and treatment options with regards to this disease.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): And there's also a section on there of caregiver tips of what I have learned over the last 20 years of giving care to Muhammad. And my intent is to help share that information that I have gained over the last 20 years with others to help empower them to be better caregivers and to learn more about, not only the disease itself, but, as I said, the treatment options. There's new treatment options coming on the scene all the time in this illness. There's all kinds of new research going on as well.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): So there's a lot of hope in this disease, of a cure being found, or something that will arrest it or treat it better than what's being done today.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How many people are we talking about who are affected either in terms of having Parkinson's or, by extension, I'm sure, that many more people are affected by living with someone with Parkinson's?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): Research show there's about a million people who have been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. I don't know how true that is because I'm meeting too many people all the time who were recently diagnosed or have been diagnosed. And we have this whole, huge, young adult onset that's coming up, you know?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): I just recently got a call from a friend of ours, who had a friend whose daughter is 13-years-old and was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in Southern California. It was just shocking to a lot of people, you know, because a lot of people think this is an old person's disease, but it's not. And you're finding that more and more that people are being diagnosed in their late 30s, you know, early 40s. And to me, that's still fairly, relatively young. So there's a lot of challenges there.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Lonnie, are there any issue specific to the African-American community and how people are dealing with Parkinson's?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): Well, actually, what we've found out is that Parkinson's disease affects people of different races equally. There's not like, you know, more Caucasian people or people of European descent that have it more than people who are of African descent or Asian descent. It affects the races quite equally.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): But it's interesting, because I've read recently that 22.4 million care-giving households of a nation's - and that's how many households in this nation there are of caregivers, 22.4 million, 10 percent of those are African American. So I find that very interesting. And what's also interesting is that it's always a challenge. As African Americans, we are so used to taking care of people all by ourselves. And it's very important to realize that, you know, we need help, you need help as a caregiver to bring in that family support, because most of the time when that happens, especially in the African-American community and household - and I don't want it limit it to that, but, you know, it takes - it's usually two incomes coming in. And when one is sacrificed, it makes it very difficult.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): So we find, in the African-American household, that even though the caregiver is giving full time care to the person, they're also working.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Is there anything that the challenges faced by being a caregiver have given you that's positive?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): Absolutely. You know, like - you know, I am a positive person. The fact that I can give my husband a better quality of life than he might have gotten normally, to me, is positive. For me to be able to provide some opportunity to put a smile on his face, to me, is positive. I'm always looking at what he still is able to do and his mission in life and achieving that mission in life and not what he's not able to do.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): I am very aware that things have changed and that, you know, some things have to be limited now. But to me, it's important that as much as he can do, that he continues to do. And he's the very same way. He's a fighter, he believes in that, and he's never allowed this illness to define who he is as person or what he hopes to achieve as an individual before he leaves this Earth. He has a large legacy to leave. And Parkinson's, hopefully, research a cure fighting for more for Parkinson's patients and caregivers will be part of his legacy and part of mine.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Lonnie, is there anything you'd like to add?</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): Well, one thing I'd like to add is that it's important that people realize that a cure for Parkinson's disease is simply a function of money. And what's great about this Fight for MORE campaign that is if anybody goes to the Web site www.fightformore.com and signs up, Valeant Pharmaceuticals will donate $10 per person who signs up to the Partisan Unity Walk. So you can sit in the comfort of your home and still raise money for the research and cure for this disease.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Lonnie, thank you so much.</s>Ms. LONNIE ALI (Muhammad Ali's Wife; Fight For MORE Campaign): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Lonnie Ali is married to boxing legend Muhammad Ali. She's a spokesperson for the Fight for MORE campaign. She spoke with me here in our NPR West Studios. And if you want to find out more about the Fight for MORE, go to our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. |
The new CD, "Evolution of the Groove," is a re-mix of some of Miles Davis' greatest hits, featuring rap star Nas and guitar great Carlos Santana. Davis's nephew, Vince Wilburn Jr., co-produced the disc with Davis' son, Erin. Both talk about the jazz great and his contributions to the music world. | FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: The father of cool is himself about to be reborn. Jazz icon, Miles Davis kept some of his classics remixed on a new CD titled "Evolution of the Groove."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: The EP features rap star Nas and guitar great Carlos Santana performing over Davis' songs remade with a strong electronic sound.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Davis' nephew, Vince Wilburn Jr, co-produced the new disk and he joins me here at our NPR West Studios. Also with us here in the studio is Miles' son, Erin. Welcome to both of you.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Thank you.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: So Miles is often someone who was fought over by different music lovers, purists liked to claim him, folks in experimental music say he's theirs, even hip-hop artists hold on to Miles as a musician and a kind of rebel music icon. So when you remix his music and blend some of the old with the new…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Now, Vince…</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: …so many jazz musicians have recorded good music, but only a few of them - Coltrane, Munk and Miles, among them - have managed to transcend the music to pop icon status. So what is it about your uncle that made him someone who is, not just a musician, but also a touchstone of his generation?</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Playing with him and being around him, I always picked up that he was just never complacent, you know, just forging ahead.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): I mean, he just, he changed the course of music, like, what, four, five different decades. So, I mean, just a step ahead of the game, you know, in life.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: And, Erin, we just talked with Femi Kuti the son of Fela Kuti.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: It's not always easy, I suspect, I don't know from experience, to be someone who is the son of, the daughter of. What kind of - how do you deal when people come up to you and say, oh, I thought your dad was blank? Or I think your dad's music - the earlier music is better than the later music. Or, you know, any kind of critique.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Well, one thing you have to understand is that a lot of times there are people who are - will come up to me and talk to me about it and I felt, and their way is the only chance that they'll ever get to even come close to talking to him, since he's not even here anymore.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): So I have to kind of just, take a step back, listen to what they're saying, and don't really take it personal one way or the other, you know what I mean? Most of the time it's always like, oh, your dad, I loved him, and he's great, and this, and that. I saw him play at this band in '86. Or I saw him in - so, I mean, it's somewhat their way of sharing it with me, which is really actually very nice, you know? I appreciate it. I don't find it to be a burden or anything like that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: What's your favorite personal moment in terms of watching him play or collaborating with him, anything like that?</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Well, one of my favorite personal moments is the first time he invited me when I was 14 to go on the road with him in - during my school summer break. We - Vince was in the band and, like, he flew me up to Berkeley. I got to open, because when we drove to Berkeley and it was their first show that I was going to be on with them. I mean, not on, but I was going to be with them. And I remember the first few notes of Vince playing the drums, the opening number, and I was, like, my eyes just kind of like were the size of saucers. And, I was like, well, now, I know what I want to do for a living. I want to be a drummer.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: How do you, and I'm going to ask this of both of you, process Miles Davis' move into more experimental electronic territory? Why do you think he did that? I don't know if he ever talked about it personally to either of you.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): I think it's just a natural evolution. I mean, if you understand where he comes from musically, playing with the same band and never - that never works for very long. There's always changes in the instrumentation and the personnel. And what you see over time is a huge list of all-star musicians that came out of his bands.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): But eventually, I think he wanted to try different sounds, different textures, electric guitar, even playing his trumpet to electric equipment.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Just because it's - you can't just lay back and do the same thing over and over again and expect to have a fulfilling career. You can't be dealing with the same things for 50 years and expect to be - feel like you've - you haven't done anything. You just repeated yourself. So you might - you've got to try different things, different percussion, different musicians. You can't play with the same guy. That's why no band stays together.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Yeah.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): I mean, even the Rolling Stones don't have every one from their original line-up. You know, it just doesn't work that way, I mean, you know?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Well, what about you, guys? I'm just curious, you know, the cousin thing is interesting. Do you have - do you guys ever scrap with each other over the direction of the work you do?</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): No.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): No.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): No, no, no. Because we have a pretty unified position.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): We'd call each other and say well, Erin, what's - you know, like, Tuesdays are release record day. So, I say, Erin, what did you download today, you know what I mean?</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): You know? I mean, no, no, no, no. Not at all.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): No, we were pretty unified with that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Erin, if you had to say what you father's greatest contribution to music was what would you say?</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Just having a level of excellence, I think. Always representing, you know, always expecting the best out of musicians - whether people knew where they were or weren't, he always knew that they had something in them that would bring something to his music. And getting it out of them, I thought, was an art form.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): I always thought his bands and the way he selected his players, that was one of his - I mean, of course, you could go and cite, you know, "So What," "Blue in Green," "Freddie Freeloader." You know, you can go down the list of all those great tracks, but I always thought just the way he selected his musicians, hired them, and then got what he got out of them what they didn't even know they could do sometimes. I thought that was one of his best qualities.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Do each of you think that his biographers got him right in terms of painting a picture of his life?</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Well, as his own biographer, I think he got himself right. That's the book I would refer to.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): I think we never knew. You know what I mean? Erin, you know, I live with Erin in Morocco and Malibu. And when he would wake up in the morning, we didn't know he's (unintelligible) or not. So we didn't - we just, you know, you just stop yourself and got ready for the day. You know what I mean?</s>Mr. DAVID: Yeah.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Because you didn't know. But he was always, like, you'd never knew where he was coming from. And he was always a step ahead of us - me, personally. And I'm sure Erin can say that, too. But, you know…</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Absolutely.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): …he was the man.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Well, on that note, Erin and Vince, thank you so much.</s>Mr. ERIN DAVIS (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Thank you very much.</s>Mr. VINCE WILBURN (Co-producer, "Evolution of the Groove"): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Erin Davis and Vince Wilburn Jr are respectively the son and nephew of jazz legend Miles Davis. Their album is "Evolution of the Groove."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: That's our show for today. Thanks for sharing your time with us. To listen to this show or subscribe to our pod cast, visit our Web site nprnews¬es.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, go to our blog at nprnewsandviews.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African American Public Radio Consortium.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: Tomorrow, revisiting New Orleans two years after the floods.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, Host: I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES. |
Over half the money Washington has set aside to rebuild the Gulf Coast has yet to be spent, according to a new report by The RFK Memorial Center for Human Rights and the Institute for Southern Studies. Jeffrey Buchanan, co-author of the study and Program Officer with the RFK Memorial Center for Human Rights, breaks down the numbers. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Over half the money Washington set aside to rebuild New Orleans is still sitting. That's according to a new report by the RFK Memorial Center for Human Rights and the Institute for Southern Studies. Most of the 116 billion federal dollars targeted for the Gulf Coast was targeted for emergency relief only. That means almost two years after Katrina the region is still picking up the pieces and having a hard time paying for it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Jeffrey Buchanan, co-author of the study. He's a program officer with the RFK Memorial Center for Human Rights.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): Great to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So why do you feel it's important to differentiate that the funds promised by the government were mainly for emergency relief?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): Well, now, we're in the rebuilding phase in the region. Most of the emergency response has been completed. So I think it's - for a fair public dialogue, we really need to talk about how much money is there to rebuild these Gulf Coast communities, not how much have we spent in emergency relief but how much is available to really rebuild the schools, rebuild the homes, make sure that medical facilities are available, infrastructure for transportation. All the things that are really required for someone to know if they're going to come home. Are they going to be able to live their lives? Are they going to be able to come home and know their family is going to be safe?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): We should really just have an honest public dialogue. We found that there's only $35 billion available for programs to actually rebuild the region. And we just hope that we can put these numbers out there and have a real honest discussion going forward.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So your study says that the portion of the budget allocated for public infrastructure repair would only cover an eighth of the infrastructure in Louisiana alone. Why do you think this is the case?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): Well, when you look at how the money has been spent, the main program for rebuilding public infrastructure, FEMA's public assistance program, a big chunk of that money that has been allocated by Congress is actually money that needs to do things like, you know, clear roads, sandbag low-lying areas, these kinds of things, and not so much of the money that's been left over to actually rebuild hard infrastructure to date.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): We found that only $3.6 billion is available, you know, based on a GAO reports by the gentleman who's actually following me in this interview, Stan Czerwinski. Basically we found that there is just not been a realistic discussion of what needs to be invested in our public infrastructure going forward in the Gulf Coast region.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So should the government try to rebuild the Gulf Coast to its former self or even make it better?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): We think that the federal government has an obligation under international human rights law to really help the region rebuild in a way that assures all of the people displaced by the storm and by the failure of the federal-constructed levee system have the ability to come home if they wanted to. That means we have to make an initial investment. A really - a renewed effort to rebuild the region, and to look at new possible ways to get money into the region and to do these rebuilding projects.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): To date, there's been a laissez faire kind of policy within the administration that they send the check out. They say they've sent the big check. Even though the numbers that they use is a little bit false in effect that it's not all for rebuilding. But they say they sent the big check and that it's the local and state problem at this point, to do the rebuilding.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): These are institutions - city and state governments that have been really wrecked by the storm. Their tax based has been eviscerated. They're not really able to do the logistics to carry out these projects quickly. That's been our finding. So we believe that there needs to be a renewed partnership with the federal government. You know, using some of its muscle to really push these programs forth if they want these to actually happen and rebuild the region.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you mentioned one specific case of tax breaks and a million-dollar deal to build luxury condos next to the University of Alabama football stadium, which is four hours from the Gulf Coast. Now, that's a very specific, targeted issue. What do you think really is the biggest issue out of what you've covered?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): Well, we think that, really, the biggest issue moving forward will be public infrastructure investment. And the reason really - there's a lot of areas that haven't able to recover but then there's a lot of working class areas, you know, like the Ninth Ward, like (unintelligible). There's a number of communities across the Mississippi Gulf Coast that still need significant investment in their public infrastructures - things like schools, like - we're talking about poor hospitals with health care about being such an issue degrading after the storms, public safety.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): Even things just like police stations and firehouses in the region really need that solid federal investment and a commitment from the federal government to rebuild. So people know they're going to be able to come back and have those essential services in place. And, you know, businesses are going to know if they're going to be able to come back and have access to the things that they would expect in other places to really makes sure that the rebuilding, you know, happens and going forward.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So finally and briefly, if you have to make one wish and wish it upon the recovery of the Gulf Coast, what would it be?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): I would say for a renewed public works program, really focused on the families and the survivors of the storm and their communities. Looking to bring back displaced people to do the work, to get trained in the jobs to rebuild the public infrastructure, and really a federal policy that is focused on helping these families to come back, rebuild their communities and rebuild their lives.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): Right now, we have a project. We're working with some folks on the ground called the Gulf Coast Civic Works Program. For people that are interested, they can check it out. The Web site address is www.solvingpoverty.org. It's a cooperative of a number of groups on the ground and some national groups looking at advocating for a policy at WPA, like public works program, to really rebuild the infrastructure and rebuild the lives and communities in the Gulf Coast.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Mr. Buchanan, thanks for joining us.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BUCHANAN (Program Officer, Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights): It's great to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Jeffrey Buchanan is program officer with the Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights. He spoke with us from NPR Headquarters in Washington. |
CNN's Soledad O'Brien and filmmaker Spike Lee conducted a simple experiment. They handed out cameras to a group of young New Orleanians, aged 12 to 20, and asked them to document their lives. O'Brien talks about the new documentary, "Children of the Storm." | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Two years ago, Hurricane Katrina changed the lives of millions of Americans and the trauma continues but in quiet, often untold ways - especially among the children of the Gulf Coast. That's why CNN's Soledad O'Brien and filmmaker Spike Lee conducted a simple experiment. They handed out cameras to a group of New Orleanians aged 12 to 20 and asked them to document their lives.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Soledad O'Brien in New Orleans. Hey, Soledad.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. SOLEDAD O'BRIEN (Anchor, CNN): Hi, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So it's great to talk to you. And who came up with the idea for this project? What role did you play?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. O'BRIEN: I came up with the idea. We were actually wrapping up our coverage of the first anniversary, and it kind of came to me as a brainstorm. We were trying to figure out how do you - for our second-year anniversary tell the story in a meaningful and compelling way without standing in front of - what could most likely be the same old buildings that were collapsed or fields where houses used to stand. You know, what can we do to illustrate what progress has been made and what progress hasn't been made.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And literally, one night, I just thought of it. I said to my husband, oh, this is it. We give cameras to kids who can really document every minute of their lives if they want to. Part of the struggle became getting some money for the cameras, but we were able to tap into a foundation that gave us a glance, and we were able to handout cameras to 11 kids who we picked. And really, they turned out to be absolutely amazing reporters for us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I've watched some of your reports on the "AC 360" show. And, of course, the doc premieres in full tonight. Now, how did you pick the kids? They are really smart - often their stories are just wrenching.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. O'BRIEN: You know, what's interesting? We had no idea when we picked them. We picked kids we thought would stick with the project. You know, you got to - who's going to take a camera and hold it around or remember to shoot things that requires a young person who is, you know, pretty consistent, pretty reliable. We picked kids who we knew to be reliable. Their teachers would give us feedback on, you know, were they good, reliable kids. We picked kids who are good talkers, who had personality, kids who were interested, engaged, had a lot to say about their community and their interests in seeing what was going to happen to New Orleans.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We had no idea, for example, that Amanda was this young woman who had a really sad past and whose mother had died when she was just 11 years old and that they were so destitute, frankly, that there was no money to give her even a headstone for her grave. We had no idea that Amanda was, in a way, the head of a household even though she is living with her grandmother, who's 67. Amanda was the one applying for the Road Home money. And that Amanda, because of their financial strains, literally wasn't sure she'll be able to go to college, and she is a bright girl.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We had no idea that Shantia, who was incredibly quiet the first time we met her - and Spike and I were talking to the group - that she would be such an amazing storyteller. And that she would be the one who really wanted to get out of New Orleans and had this just helpable frustration with living in one of those cranny camp trailers with members of her family. And she was just done with it. And yet, the family's house was destroyed and her single mother said, you know, I don't have the finances to send you and your brother to school. It's just cannot be done. And…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Soledad, let me just jump in. I've got a little bit of Amanda Hill filming her grandmother opening a letter.</s>Unidentified Woman: I'm opening letter from FEMA.</s>Ms. AMANDA HILL (Resident, New Orleans): What it's saying?</s>Unidentified Woman: It's saying that we can - we have try to move out of this trailer. They're trying get us out of here to be put in that house. And the house is not even livable. It's not even ready to live in.</s>Ms. AMANDA HILL (Resident, New Orleans): Well, welcome to a day in my life. We get letters like this every so many month thing. And now, we need to get out, but we don't even have a place to live. They trail upon us. And this is just a couple of things we have to deal with, just to name a few.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And in her story, her grandmother also said, basically, I feel that sometimes like I should commit suicide. I mean, what does it feel like to you to deal with young people who are dealing with that magnitude of despair?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. O'BRIEN: Farai, I'm going to tell you, when we got that tape we were very worried. Very worried. My produce Michelle Rozsa came in and said I got to show you this. And it was Amanda, basically, sobbing on camera - sobbing because of her situation. And then, it was Amanda talking about suicide. And we were very worried, and we called her. And, you know, it became clear to us pretty quickly that what she was talking about suicide-wise was if she could understand how worried she was about her grandmother maybe not living. But it scared us. It scared us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I mean, and that's what the thing about these kids their age. They were really able tackle very weighty and very tough subjects with a really - a very good sense of honesty, you know? No one is spinning for the camera. No one's acting. No one is, you know, faking it, trying to sell it. They're just brutally, painfully honest about the lows and the highs. And I think that what makes the documentary, you know, a valuable record of what has happened here over the last year.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And you're working with Spike Lee of, you know, of - "When The Levees Broke," and let's hear a little bit about what Spike had to say.</s>Mr. SPIKE LEE (Film Director): We're expecting to get some great…</s>Unidentified Woman: Footage.</s>Mr. SPIKE LEE (Film Director): …footage so you're doing this for the world. Remember, it's not just for yourself because the world is going to see this stuff. So you got to come correct. You want don't want to go out half-half Rudy(ph) truth, right?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you feel like…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. O'BRIEN: Half, half Rudy truth.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I know you got to love that. That's some vivid language. But did you ever feel like you were putting too much on these young people? That you were asking them to give more than they had to give?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. O'BRIEN: No. You know, we were always amazed by what we were getting. We actually gave them very basic assignments of - I, you know, one of the reasons that I had sort of begged and groveled and pleaded with Spike, who was a friend, and I took advantage of my friendship. I asked him to come and really help us on this project, and help the kids was because I wanted him to spell out for them what it means and what's at stake when you're a filmmaker, when your trying to tell the - a true story.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But, no, you know what, this is what they gave us. We gave very general assignments. Give us a day in your life. Tell us about your family. That was it. Just so we would really get them to go out and consistently shoot. But they were the ones who turned in this amazing footage. And it was really a testament to how strong they are.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I mean, really - they are - you know, when you have kids, you understand how much kids know and understand. And these are not little children. These are older kids who are dealing with some weighty issues every day. I think in some ways they were very happy to be able to talk about it and interview people about it. It - certainly as a journalist, when there's an issue that I'm dealing with, to be able to run out and do a story on it sometimes helps a lot.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Soledad, thanks for sharing your story and their stories.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ms. O'BRIEN: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Soledad O'Brien is an anchor and special correspondent for CNN. She spoke with us from New Orleans. And "Children of the Storm" premieres in its entirety tonight on CNN. |
The devastation wrought by Katrina sent thousands fleeing the Gulf Coast. It also brought thousands in to help. Among them was Katina Parker, a filmmaker turned New Orleans activist and organizer. She's developed "N.O. Labor of Love," an organization designed to attract volunteers to the Gulf Coast. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: The devastation brought by Katrina sent thousands fleeing the Gulf Coast but it also brought thousands in to help. Among them is Katina Parker. She first traveled to New Orleans with little more than a video camera. She wanted to document the personal stories of people struggling in the aftermath of the storm. And in the two years since, she has returned to the Gulf Coast again and again, not just to videotape, to organize.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: She founded a Web site nolaboroflove.com, and she's using Web marketing to attract and support volunteers who want to serve. Katina Parker is in New Orleans and joins us now. Welcome.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): Hello. How are you?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I am doing great. And let's go to the moment that this crystallized. What did you see that make - made you say I have to do this at any cost?</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): When I was down here in April, I was documenting a group of Los Angeles Valley College students who'd come to volunteer during their spring break. And over the course of the week that we were here, I saw the students go from being really gung-ho about gutting and, you know, just doing agro(ph) things to coming to their senses and realizing the vast nature of the recovery effort here.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): And by the time they left, they didn't want to leave because there was so much more for them to do. They wound up adopting some of the families that we rebuilt homes for and even adopted a gentleman who doesn't really qualify for any of the relief programs. He's 64. He makes it on about 590 a month with his wife. They live in a FEMA trailer, and they were able to connect him to some church, some church groups that have since helped him out.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): And so - in being a part of all that, I realized that, through the power of the Web and through the use of supportive communities, that we could establish our own user supported community where people who want to volunteer can connect with volunteer relief groups and where we could also supply them with up-to-date information about things you need to know in order to volunteer in the Gulf Coast.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now let me just share a bit of your documentary. It's called "New Orleans: Labor of Love." And here's a woman having work done on her home.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Woman #2: Due to Hurricane Katrina, I lost everything. I'm a single parent, I work, I have two kids, and without the help of these volunteers, this project wouldn't be possible.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what about the relief programs that are down there? Do you think, you know, the volunteers are very courageous but is there enough going on? I'm not saying that the volunteers aren't doing great work, but is there enough infrastructure?</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): Through the volunteer groups?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah, I mean, can they - it's essentially, you know, the whole idea of putting a finger in a dike. Can they really hold up the city just through the organizations on the ground?</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): The volunteer groups cannot do it alone, no. There is a lot of support that is needed from local government and from state government in order for them to do their work. But we do know that if we don't - if people don't actively advocate for volunteers to come in to the Gulf Coast that the volunteer stream is going to trickle off.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We met some of Rosa Parks' relatives when we - as NEWS & NOTES went down to New Orleans who were volunteering, a mother-and-daughter team. And give me a story of a volunteer that you met who you thought was courageous or championing the city.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): Actually, one of the most courageous volunteers who I met - I was traveling with her early this year. Her name is Ebony(ph). And her family is from New Orleans. When she came back to the city to volunteer, it was the first time she had been here since Katrina had happened. She actually hadn't seen her childhood home or anything like that and what state it was in. And so I spent most of the week with her as she was taking the city in. And it was completely devastating for her.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): And even in the midst of, you know, just frequent emotional moments. You know, as we toured the city and saw the scope of the devastation, she still showed up every day and worked hard and was a team leader and encouraged other people to work hard. And she's volunteering with us now to connect people to volunteer resources.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now is there a rotation? Do you see people come and leave or have some people been on the ground for over a year?</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): There's a range here. There are people who came thinking that they would stay here a week, and they were so touched by what they saw that they stayed here, you know, a year, I actually just interviewed a guy yesterday who's been here for about five months. And then there are a lot of people who get here - I have folks who have posted through My Space who've come and they have stayed until they've run out of money, then now they returned home so they can make more money so they can come back. I haven't met any volunteers to date who don't intend to come back within the coming years so that they can do more work.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about emotional fatigue? We've been talking a lot with people who were residents and about all of the trauma and the anger they still feel. What about volunteers? How do they process this emotionally?</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): Volunteers experienced some of the same emotional fatigue. For those of us who are not from New Orleans, some of the politics and the red tape that people talked about is this thing prior to Katrina is very perplexing and frustrating. And that sometimes the best thing you can do is just kind of, you know, put your shoulder to the plow(ph) and keep doing the work that you came to do.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): And I find that people, you know, they work here for a while and then they have to leave and kind of rejuvenate and get some perspective and then come back. And in leaving, you know, they're able to tell their stories to other people and it encourages them to come and volunteer as well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Katina, I hope that you can rejuvenate as well. Keep doing your work. Thanks a lot.</s>Ms. KATINA PARKER (Director, "New Orleans: Labor of Love"): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Katina Parker is director of "New Orleans: Labor of Love." She joined us from the studios of Audioworks in New Orleans.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And to learn more about Katina's work in the Gulf Coast, go to our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. |
Trump administration officials are in Beijing to re-start trade talks with China, as global markets stutter over the tit-for-tat trade war between the two economic superpowers. | STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: A group of midlevel U.S. trade officials has begun talks today in Beijing. They're working toward a trade agreement. The United States wants concessions in Chinese business practices. And, in exchange, the U.S. would eliminate tariffs recently imposed on Chinese goods. NPR's Rob Schmitz joins us from Shanghai.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Hi there, Rob.</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: I guess we should bear in mind, they're talking about getting rid of these tariffs, but tariffs could also go up, right?</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: That's right. President Trump and Chinese leader Xi Jinping agreed a month ago at a dinner meeting at the G-20 in Argentina that they'd hash out their differences over a 90-day period in the hopes that they'd reach a deal in that time. That 90-day period ends on March 2. And if the two sides don't come to a new trade agreement by then, the Trump administration plans to increase tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese imports from 10 to 25 percent. Both countries have had tariffs on hundreds of billions of dollars' worth of each other's goods since last summer.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Would you just remind us, for people who are coming back to the news after the holidays, what are the sticking points here?</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Well, the Trump administration has a list of demands. It wants Beijing to end its practice of forcing American companies to hand over key technology in return for doing business in China. It also wants China to buy more products from the U.S. in order to reduce the trade deficit, and it wants a fairer playing field for U.S. companies inside of China. Now, Beijing's prepared to buy more American products. That's easy enough to meet the demands of hundreds of millions of consumers here. But what's going to be difficult for the Chinese side is to level the playing field for U.S. companies inside of China. And to do that properly would require significant changes in how China manages its economy, changes that would put the Chinese government and its state-owned enterprises in a vulnerable position.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well...</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: So that is the big sticking point from Beijing's perspective.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, let's think that through. You have to assume that China would only do that if they faced enormous pressure, if they faced enormous pain. The United States is attempting to impose this pain through 10 percent tariffs and threaten more pain with 25 percent tariffs, should it go through with that. So that then raises a question. Is it possible to tell, Rob, if the tariffs are having that much of an effect - a negative effect on China right now?</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Well, there has been a lot of chatter among Chinese economists about this in recent months. And the consensus is that, yes, China's economic growth is slowing more than anticipated since the tariffs were imposed. You know, and this is backed up by lower-than-expected consumption numbers in China and also from announcements like Apple CEO Tim Cook's not too long ago that his company's numbers would be worse than expected due to China's downward economic trend. So, yes, there is some data here and evidence that China's economy is hurting because of this.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And that's - is an interesting point. U.S. tariffs, in a way, hurt American consumers because they raise prices of goods here. I suppose Chinese retaliation raises prices of goods in China, right? And so that might affect Chinese consumers in a way.</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Absolutely. If those tariffs remain, imports into China from the U.S. are, you know, of course, tariffed. And, of course, you know, China's consumer group - the consumers of China really rely on a lot of increasingly imported goods, and a lot of those imported goods are from the United States.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. Rob, thanks for the update, really appreciate it.</s>ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Rob Schmitz is in Shanghai. |
Stan Czerwinski, director for strategic issues with the Government Accountability Office, testified in August before the House Budget Committee about the federal government's role in the Gulf Coast rebuilding effort. Czerwinski talks about what the government is doing right and what it can learn from mistakes made in the wake of Katrina. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And though few people in Washington dispute Mr. Buchanan's math, it's the interpretation of the numbers, and what's really happening on the ground in the Gulf Coast that's got people disagreeing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: People like Stan Czerwinski, director for strategic issues with the Government Accountability Office, also known as the GAO.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome.</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): Thank you, Ms. Chideya. It's my pleasure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, well, Mr. Czerwinski, what role does the GAO play in this whole Gulf Coast rebuilding?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): Our job, Ms. Chideya, is to help the Congress to provide information for the policymakers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And so what's the normal breakdown in relief situations between money that goes to immediate, emergency help and money for a long-term rebuilding?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): Well, to start with, Katrina is not the usual. What you have to look at is this storm and this damage it caused in perspective with others, in terms of Katrina probably the midrange of estimates of damages, which is probably $150 billion. And that dwarfs anything else that we know.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, do you personally think that the money allocated to help the Gulf Coast is enough to actually rebuild it?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): What you have to do is you have to put the amounts of money that have been appropriated in the context to the size of disaster. As I mentioned, we're talking about $150 billion worth of damage - some say high, some say low. But it's really not the issue as to whether it's more or less it's the magnitude, and then to compare that with the appropriation.</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): As we've reported, about $116 billion have been appropriated so far. And as Brookings, rightly notes, about 35 billion of that has gone to rebuilding. That obviously means there's a lot more that needs to be done, and the key becomes how we go about doing that. It's not just a federal responsibility. The state and local governments need to come to the table as well as the private sector, both for profit and nonprofit, with the federal government playing a key role in terms of funding and leadership.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you said this is not a normal situation, if there's such a thing as a normal disaster, so take me inside what your thought processes were as an organization when Katrina hit, when the levees broke. How do you even begin, from your point of view, to address an issue like this?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): That's a really good question. We were asked by the Congress in the aftermath of Katrina to send three teams down to the Gulf Coast to take a look at what's going on there in terms of the response, and to come back with recommendations as to what needs to be done. We then have been asked, since then, to follow on in terms of rebuilding and look at, again, what is going on, what can be done to make things go better. This is a unique occurrence. The mass(ph), as I've mentioned is just tremendously different than anything we've seen. And what it really calls for is a different paradigm in terms of the way the nation approaches this kind of disaster, of the catastrophic proportion has proposed to the, let's say, garden variety disasters.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, you, on August 2nd, were asked to testify before the House Budget committee in regards to the Gulf Coast rebuilding. So in a nutshell, what did you tell the committee?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): What we told them is that it's very, very difficult to account for the precise numbers of funds that have gone to the disaster rebuilding. Part of it is because of the way the government does its business. NGOs issued reports on this. We've made recommendations to approve the accounting procedures. In addition to that, what we did try to do is to then take a look at the major areas in which the rebuilding funds went. And there are two major areas that we start with. One is public assistance, which is somewhat a misnomer because it goes to rebuilding of the public infrastructure. The other is the community (unintelligible) grant which infused quite a bit of money -about 16 to $17 billion into the Gulf Coast with very few strings attached for the state and locals to decide what they wanted to do with it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you told Congress that the nation's system for accounting for disasters is flawed. So why do think that is and how could you improve that?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): Actually, we did make recommendations also for improving that. And it really comes from a couple of areas. One is the way that we have established the disaster relief fund. Money is appropriated by Congress. It goes into a fund. And then it plays out, not just for disaster in which it's facing currently, but the past disasters. For example, we were just wrapping up the payoffs for Hurricane Andrew work and for the Northridge earthquakes, which were 13 and 14 years ago. And this money becomes very hard to distinguish whether which has been going to which. The other is that, as you know, there are multiple players involved. So it's not just FEMA. But there's also the DOD, DOT, HUD. And FEMA's accounting systems could do a better job of keeping track of that money, too.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So I asked Mr. Buchanan if you had one wish what would you wish for the Gulf. What about you?</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): Partnerships. And partnerships depend upon leadership, vision, strategic planning and cooperation among all the players. And when I talk about partnerships. The key is that it's not just a Louisiana on this city program is the problem. It's not just a New Orleans problem. It's not just a federal problem, it's all together. And frankly, the private sector has to be a key player too because they provide a lot of the industrial engine that you need. As well as the non-profits who have a very good handle on what is going on with their clientele and in the area. So everybody has to come together both in terms of the approach and also with funds.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Mr. Czerwinski, thank you so much.</s>Mr. STAN CZERWINSKI (Director for Strategic Issues, Government Accountability Office): Okay. Thank you. My pleasure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Stan Czerwinski is director for strategic issues with the Government Accountability Office. And he came to us from NPR headquarters in Washington. |
News & Notes Web producer Geoffrey Bennett talks about the stories that are making the rounds on the blog, "News & Views," and explains how the show's website is marking the second anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've got a special New Orleans Bloggers Roundtable coming up right after we take a look at what's happening on our blog, News & Views.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And with me is our Web producer Geoffrey Bennett. Hey, Geoff.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Hey, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, what has folks talking?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Lots of conversation on the blog this week, all centered on a handful of new stories. There was, of course, response to Michael Vick's televised apology earlier this week.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: And then there's a story from Atlanta. City councilman there is proposing a new indecency law that would criminalize sagging, baggy pants. Critics of the ordinance said it would target young, black men since it's a popular hip-hop style and some folks in our blog agreed.</s>But my favorite comment came from someone who wrote: While Atlanta is legislating fashion, they can also put a hit in spandex, blue weaves, grills and the alligator shoes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That is great.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Yeah. And there's also a new report from the civil rights coalition that says in part affirmative action limits the success of minority law students. So people in our blog picked the part of the report's findings as well as the coalition's political motivations.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. The Atlanta Fashion Police are out.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Yeah.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And I see there's another installment of Speak Your Mind when we give our audience the mic.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Yes. It's an online series where we our readers take over the blog and write about an issue that matters to them. And this week, we have a piece from James Wayne(ph), who listens to the show and post comments on the blog pretty frequently. And his essay is about the public education system and how it fails kids in poor communities. That's a really well researched piece so I encourage people to read it and respond to it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. And this is an issue that comes out specifically with Katrina survivors but also in most cities in America.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So we are marking the second anniversary of Katrina on the show today. And how are we covering that on our Web site?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: We have an archive of the show's coverage of the hurricane going back to 2005 right after the storm's hit. So if people remembering a piece on the show and want to go back and revisit it, they can find it pretty easily on our site. We have a photo retrospective and audio slide shows featuring people whose lives are impacted by the storm. And we're also opening up a section of the blog for people who were affected by Katrina, who think they can share their stories with us and with other readers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And I will share my own stories about reporting on Katrina and seeing the devastation firsthand. So it's a tremendous anniversary and we're committed to sharing our stories.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Geoff, thanks again.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Geoff Bennett is the Web producer for NEWS & NOTES. |
Two years ago, Dr. Joe Freeman founded the group Free Life Medical Assistance for Louisiana, which provided free medical care to evacuees from Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. He also worked in two FEMA-operated morgues after the storms. We check in with him again to get his perspective. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Two years ago, Dr. Joe Freeman founded the group Free Life Medical Assistance for Louisiana. They provided free medical care to evacuees from Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. He also worked in two FEMA-operated morgues after the storms, and we caught up with him just days after Katrina hit.</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): I'm angry. I cannot have the same color of skin of these people that you see on television that tell you that they have no water, they have no food. And I know in my heart and I don't care if people are upset about it, if this was the coast and with the complexion of these people were not black, this would not be happening.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I personally visited Dr. Freeman in his home last year on the first anniversary of the Katrina disaster and he said the storm may have come and gone, but it left the Gulf Coast in a lingering medical crisis.</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Post-traumatic stress syndrome. You lost your mother. You lost your son. I mean, you're self medicate, you know, it's going to be more uses of a drugs. I mean, there's just a lot of things that going on with this - that we haven't even scratch the surface on.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, an E.R. doctor in the Lake Charles area, Dr. Freeman's with us once again to talk about life in the Gulf Coast nearly two years after Katrina.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dr. Freeman, it's great to talk to you again.</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Hi. How are you doing, Farai?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I am doing great. Now, you were angry and dissatisfied with the recovery effort a year ago, two years ago. How do you feel now and what's going on now?</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Well, Farai, I'm still angry. Recovery is slow. I mean, as you walk - well, I went to New Orleans. I got the courage and strength to go to New Orleans the day the Saints came back and the Superdome was rebuilt, and what a beautiful day. It was a glorious sunny day and people were smiling and talking and everybody was happy, and I was just walking and it was, like, great. And I was just so - I was walking all over and I walked myself around the French Quarters and, boom, there go the blue tarps.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So it's a stark contrast between the surface that's built up and then all the areas that aren't.</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Absolutely, a huge contrast. I understand that President Bush is coming tomorrow to New Orleans, and that's great. I'm, you know, I'm sure every politician will take - you know, will be there and do their soundbites. But I really wish he would have brought some water two years ago, you know. It's still - we're still in the midst of it. You know, it's like - I'm sorry.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: No, no. I just - you know, you are someone who did so many different things to care for people, and you did talk to us about PTSD. You yourself have certainly been through enough trauma. Helping people can be such a burden. But how are people doing emotionally, the people who come in to you and the people you know?</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Well, I mean, I can tell you just from people that in the last two years, Farai. There's a nurse that I work with in Lake Charles. Obviously, you know, Rita was hit and his home was in New Orleans and then there came Rita, but he has rebuilt. But when he talks about New Orleans, you can see the sadness and he says that it'll never ever, ever be the same, okay?</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Now - and then just last night when I worked, there was a gentleman who was a trans - an evacuee from New Orleans who now lives in Iowa, Louisiana in a FEMA trailer, who is on crack, 56 years old, you know, who just don't have anything. I mean, you know, we're - you know, we in this state - and I think we're all affected, are going through it, you know. And every time this rolls around, it's kind of reliving someone's death.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And what about violence? I mean, as an ER doctor, I'm sure you see your share. What is going on, do you think, with people who are both perpetrating and the victims of?</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Well, now, if you - well, just from my visits, since we've talked, to New Orleans, all the hotels in the French Quarters have armed security now, all of them. The violence - you've heard the stories in New Orleans, it's all over. The violence has increased. People don't have - as far as my profession is concerned, doctors have fled. Okay.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So there aren't even people around to reach out as many?</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): No. I mean, you know, I've been working in the charity system in Louisiana for the past, I think, seven months in Lake Charles and the services are dwindling away. You know, when the charity system in New Orleans shut down, it was devastating and is devastating. It's unbelievable. You better not have a broke leg in the state of Louisiana. It is rough. You better not have mental illness, it's rough.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And I'm sure it's rough on you. We are going to have to let you go, but let's definitely stay in touch. And I wish you the best with everything you do.</s>Dr. JOE FREEMAN (Founder, Free Life Medical Assistance): Thank you very, very, very much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dr. Joe Freeman is an ER doctor in the Lake Charles area of Louisiana. And he came to us from the L.A. Post(ph) studios in Baton Rouge. |
For the latest news from the continent, NPR Africa correspondent Ofeibea Quist-Arcton offers an update on the trouble in the Delta between security forces and militants, round two of voting in Sierra Leone's presidential election, new oil sources discovered in Ghana, and how cheeky monkeys in Kenya are terrorizing women. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time now for our Africa Update.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This week, election campaign violence in Sierra Leone ahead of the presidential run-off vote next month. In Nigeria, more unrest in the volatile oil-producing Niger Delta. Ghana strikes black gold. Plus, how cheeky monkeys in Kenya are terrorizing women.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, I'm joined by NPR Africa correspondent Ofeibea Quist-Arcton. Ofeibea, it's great to talk with you again.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Always a pleasure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So we don't hear much from or about post-war Sierra Leone but the West African country is all over the news this week. Why?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Because Sierra Leone has managed to organize what observers from within and outside the country are calling very good elections. Now that was a little while back. Meanwhile, the results are out. The parliamentarians have been announced. But the presidential election is going to a second run-off vote on the 8th of September. And that's where they've hit obstacles. There's been violence on Sunday and, again, on Monday between supporters of the main two rival candidates.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: The president - the outgoing president of Sierra Leone, Ahmad Tejan Kabbah, has given them a very stern warning.</s>President AHMAD TEJAN KABBAH (Sierra Leone): All those responsible for the violence and lawlessness should be prepared for the consequences. Henceforth, government shall not hesitate one moment to declare a state of public emergency if the current states of intimidation, molestation, and violent acts is not stopped immediately.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Now, Farai, the opposition is saying that the president, who comes from the governing party, and it's his candidate who's the outgoing vice president, Solomon Berewa, that they're making this announcement because they are worried that their candidate is going to lose the second round of the vote. So the opposition is saying there's absolutely no need for anything like a state of emergency. But the government is saying if this violence doesn't stop on all sides, we will intervene. The opposition is saying if the president goes down that route, it means that he could just then extend his mandate because a state of emergency would mean that he could just stay on. So, after a very good first round of elections, it looks now as if Sierra Leone has hit some problems.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So after the brutal civil war in Sierra Leone, how is the country doing?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: It's picking up. There has at least been reconciliation. There's a war crimes tribunal that is actually taking people accused of atrocities during the civil war to court. And Sierra Leoneans say, slowly, things are mending. But they feel that the government of outgoing President Tejan Kabbah has not done enough. They cite corruption. They cite that the fundamentals -things like utilities - are not where they should be because Sierra Leone has so much goodwill after the end of the war. So I think there's a big question mark about what goes next. But there is peace for now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So let's stay in West Africa, talking about Nigeria. There appears to be no end to clashes between militants and security forces in the Niger Delta. So can you bring us up to date on that?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Now it's the government, which seemed to be going along the route of dialogue saying enough is enough. They say there's been too much violence by the militants in this really volatile area of the country, which pumps the country's wealth, which is, of course, the oil, saying we are going to flush out. We are going to find those who are creating the unrest and the violence in River State and other areas of the Delta. Now, some people, including elders in River State, are saying what the region needs is emergency rule, is a state of emergency.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Listen to this gentleman, Albert Hosfort(ph).</s>Mr. ALBERT HOSFORT (Resident, River State): The proper thing to do for the sake of the people of River State, for some impartial person to take charge of River State. Sanitize these militia people. Flush them out of the system. So that people can go about their business. People can buy and sell. People can trade. People can go to work.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: But you know, the response from the River State information commissioner, Emmanuel Okah, to Albert Hosfort and other elders in the region who say that the state of emergency is needed, is that emergency rule is out of the question. And is not the answer.</s>Mr. EMMANUEL OKAH (Information Commissioner, River State): And as elders, we expect that even if there are circumstances that have caused discomfort, it is their responsibility as elders to call these voice to order or to prepare solutions that will generate the kind of environment that will promote amity and unity amongst the people. The point when everybody appears to be giving a sigh of relief, somebody now comes from nowhere and say go and bring back anarchy. Our conclusion is that these are indeed the two enemies of the people (unintelligible) because they do not want peace.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Ofeibea, let's keep traveling. Jump over a couple of borders and talk about your home country of Ghana. You were there when the president reacted to the discovery of more oil. Tell us about that.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: It looks as if Ghana is going to be joining the leagues of oil-producing countries. But President Kufuor says good news but be careful.</s>President JOHN AGYEKUM KUFUOR (Ghana): Ghana deserves good news for a change. We've been suffering so much over the past decades. Now, Ghana can proudly say that she has broken the jinx and she's joining the company of nations. So I want people to be reasonably optimistic but not overly optimistic.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: So Ghana looks as if it's going to become an oil producer. They found reserves of oil in shallow waters. Now, the same company, Tullow, Inc., says it seems to have found more oil in deeper waters. Ghanaians are pretty excited about the discovery of oil. But they also looked to countries not so far away like Nigeria we just spoke about, to Congo, Brazzaville, to other countries where oil has been more of a curse than a blessing. And everybody is saying, if indeed we have struck oil, let it be used for the benefit of Ghanaians, all Ghanaians, to develop the country and not just go into the pockets of the few to make them rich.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And you have a story for us now that probably you got to see to believe. But describe it to us. We're talking about monkeys in Kenya.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Indeed. Monkey business in Central Kenya, where women are complaining that vervet monkeys just don't take them seriously. That they are eating their crops and even trying or potentially trying to attack them. Listen to these women. They sound genuinely concerned.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Unidentified Woman #1: (Through translator) When we come to chase the monkeys away, we come dressed in trousers and hats so that we look like men. But the monkeys can tell the difference and they don't run away from us, especially the big ones. They just look at us and continue to eat the crops. The monkeys grab their breasts and gesture at us while pointing at their private parts. Now, we are even afraid that they will attack us or even sexually harass us because we hear they can do that.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Unidentified Woman #2: (Through translator) We started wearing trousers so that we look like men and the monkeys would fear us. But now, they can tell us apart. They point at their heads as if to say they are too clever for our tricks. They also point at our breasts. They know when it is the women who are wearing trousers. These monkeys are very clever.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Ofeibea, apparently, man and primates really aren't that far apart genetically. So why not sexual harassment from the animal world?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: These poor women, they just sound unbearable. And it really is no laughing matter. But, apparently, they've asked the government to come and deal with it, and the wildlife people. Because if monkeys can tell who is a man and who is a woman, even if they're wearing hats and trousers, and especially ruining their crops, I think they're going to have to deal with this problem.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, Ofeibea, thank you for that unusual take and for all the news you bring us.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Pleasure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton speaking with us from the Dakar, Senegal. |
For a look at the future of the Civil Rights Division, NPR's Tony Cox talks with Dan Eggen, who covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And earlier today, President Bush praised the outgoing attorney general, citing his distinguished civil rights record. But the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division has been wracked with allegations of political hirings. What's more, Wan Kim, the assistant attorney general in charge of the division, resigned late last week.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more on the attorney general's civil rights record, we have Sherilynn Ifill, a professor of law at the University of Maryland. Welcome.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Thanks for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what do you think that Alberto Gonzales' legacy is going to be as far as the Civil Rights Division is concerned?</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Well, it's not a very positive one, I must say. I mean, he has been the attorney general who's really overseen what many regard as a virtual dismantling of the Civil Rights Division - its effectiveness and its traditional role in protecting the civil rights of racial minorities.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what was the original purpose of the Civil Rights Division?</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Well, the Civil Rights Division was created in the late 1950s, in response to the efforts of civil rights activists, really, to compel the federal government to take a role in protecting the civil rights of racial minorities, the voting rights and so forth. And that's really been the traditional role of the Civil Rights Division.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): But under Attorney General Gonzales, the priorities of the division have really changed. Many of the most experienced career attorneys who are really essential to the proper running of the Civil Rights Division, these are the people who are not political appointees but they've been there 15, 20, sometimes, 30 years, the people who have the most experience, who knows civil rights law backwards and forwards, and who can withstand changes, political changes, in administrations, whether they're Democratic or Republican.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): You need the continuity of these people for the proper running of the department. And many of these people, under the tenure of Attorney General Gonzales, have simply resigned out of frustration with the direction that the division has taken, with the meddling in cases, with the overruling of decisions and interpretations and analyses of career attorneys by the political appointees in the department.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): So you've had a tremendous, tremendous talent drain from the Civil Rights Division. And as I suggested earlier, you've also had this diversion that is a change in priorities where Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has really turned the department more toward focusing on things like sex trafficking rather than the enforcement of voting rights.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): And in fact, there was some Latino leaders who were quite disturbed with Attorney General Gonzales and sought a meeting with him a meeting several months ago to address the failure of the division to respond to and to prosecute hate crimes perpetrated against Latinos, particularly at borders, where, as you know, there's been a lot of tension around illegal immigration.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Sherilynn, do you think that the departure of Attorney General Gonzales and of Wan Kim, who basically also stepped down last week…</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …a former head of the Civil Rights Division, will that return the Civil Rights Division to a state where it is pursuing the kinds of cases that you were talking about pursuing in the past?</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Unfortunately, Farai, I think this is not the kind of problem that can be addressed by, you know, one change in personnel.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): I think what's happened, as I suggested earlier, because so many people have left is that we're really now in the position of having to rebuild the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, restoring the integrity of those who are there, renewing the focus on the traditional role of the Civil Rights Division and attracting talent, that is, re-attracting people who can believe in the integrity of the system and that the enforcement of civil rights laws will be the first priority.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): So that's going to, you know, that's going to take some time. It may not be possible to happen - certainly, it's unlikely for that whole turnaround to happen in the last year of the Bush administration no matter who they appoint as the head of the Civil Rights Division.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): But it will be even less likely to happen if the Senate and President Bush in his nomination and the Senate in their confirmation fails to really take account and focus intensely on how the new attorney general intends to address questions surrounding the Civil Rights Division.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you think that Congress is going to pay a great deal of attention to this as the new - as a successor comes up?</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Well, it's hard, I think, because, you know, so much of the attention on Attorney General Gonzales and quite rightly so has been on the warrantless wiretapping program, has been on the war on terror, has been on the U.S. attorney firings, and so I think that there is obviously a lot of rationale for Congress to pay a tremendous amount of attention to those questions for whoever is the new nominee. And so I really think it remains to be seen and, you know, I think it's enough - of constituents express concern and interest groups express concern and compel the Senate Judiciary Committee to take up this question they will.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): I happen to know, however, that there are a number of senators who have been deeply concerned about questions surrounding the Civil Rights Division and not just Democrats. I know that Arlen Specter sent several letters to Attorney General Gonzales during his tenure, demanding that he provides some data, some accounting of the priorities of the division, of the personnel changes that have happened and the reason for those personnel changes and has been trying to get answers from Attorney General Gonzales on those questions for well over a year.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): So I think there are members of the Senate Judiciary Committee who are quite, quite concerned about this and so I think it is likely to come up. The question is just how much attention it'll get, given all of the other issues that are also on the table.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And finally and briefly, who are the constituents pushing for an examination of this? For example, traditional civil rights organizations, you mentioned some, Latino organizations. Who is going to be examining the issue of the Civil Rights Division?</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Yeah. I think it's going to be the, you know, the civil rights organizations like the NAACP, like LULAC, the League of United Latin American Citizens, which, as a matter of fact, you know, supported the general -Attorney General Gonzales for some time and has tried to support him because of his position as the first Latin attorney general.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): But, you know, I think that it's also true that, you know, it's going to be on the ground constituents as well. I mean, who, you know, how are the constituents of individual senators going to respond and are they going to be calling in, but you're going to see a big push from, you know, the NAACP, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, the Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund, LULAC, the Mexican American Legal Defense Fund, all of the organizations that traditionally have interacted sometimes quite tensely with the Justice Department, wanting the Justice Department to do more under even the Clinton administration, but I think these organizations have been observing this dismantling of the Civil Rights Division. They have a lot to say and they're deeply, deeply concerned on behalf of their constituents about how new leadership intends to respond to this crisis.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Sherrilyn, thank you so much.</s>Professor SHERILYNN IFILL (Law, University of Maryland): Thank you, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sherrilyn Ifill is a professor of law at the University of Maryland. |
News & Notes continues its series on the black literary imagination with a look at what it takes to become a writer. Farai Chideya talks with Randall Kenan, author of The Fire This Time; Kecia Lynn, a graduate of The University of Iowa's Writers Workshop; and Pulitzer Prize-winning author James Alan McPherson. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Ernest Hemingway once said there is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed. If so, why would anyone want to do this? All this month, we've been looking at the black literary tradition. And today, we continue our series with a focus on becoming a writer.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm joined now by three writers at different stages of their careers. Randall Kenan has written several books including a new work of essays called "The Fire This Time." Also, James Alan McPherson is the first African-American to win the Pulitzer Prize in fiction. His works include "Hue and Cry," "Elbow Room" and "A Region Not Home." And Kecia Lynn is a former student of McPherson's and a recent graduate of the University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Everybody, welcome.</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Hi.</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): Hello.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So let's start with this quote from Hemingway. And I'm going to go to you, James, is this really about bleeding your heart out? Is that what it takes to be a writer?</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Kecia and I were just talking about courage and she handed me a book called "The Courage to Write: How Writers Transcend Fear." I think it's fear more than bleeding that causes you to write because it perhaps it sort of the (unintelligible) come, the let-me-be-bleeding, I don't know, but it's the transcendence of fear, I think.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So when you think about fear, what does it mean to you?</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): We're talking about a protege of mine, Ralph Ellison, just now and I read an article about him and his book in the Washington Post magazine about two or three weeks ago. And it interests me because I think Ellison did fear. He did fear that he was not going to beat Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man." I think that is the reality, you don't bleed, you just tremble, I think.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Kecia, how does this relate to your experience? Tell us also about how and when you came to writing in your life.</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Well, I was one of those people who got bit at an early age. I had a teacher in third grade in Cleveland Heights, Ohio, who used to give us creative writing exercises. And it was around the same time I had also discovered "Star Trek," the original one. And so I was already in that grand imaginative state where I felt anything could be possible and then to be able to make things up, it was really just a great fit for me. Tied to that, also being the fact this is kind of a different take on fear that I wasn't exactly the most popular kid in school, I was kind of an outsider, I was bit of a nerd. And I - many people deal with that in different ways, I chose to withdraw into fiction and I'm still doing it. That's how I identified with writing and being a writer very early as a very young child.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But you made some decisions after having other paths in your life, is that correct? That you worked…</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Yes, that's right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …you worked for many years in fields that were not literary?</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): I did. I got - I actually entered college as an engineering major. And then I had what I call my rebel moment and said I'm going to be a writer, so I changed my major to English. But then once I graduated and was faced with the big, bad, scary world, I found myself diverted into technical writing. And I worked in information technology for 17 years. Much of that time was spent as a technical writer and editor but I also did some other things. And all the while I was writing but I wasn't writing to the level that I really wanted to write at.</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): And I finally made a decision a few years ago that I wanted to be serious about my writing and for that, that meant for me to leave information technology and to go back to school and to study writing and to really get serious about it. So that's why I'm here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Randall, you are somewhat different in that you're writing in the nonfiction mode as opposed to the fiction mode. Do you think there is any difference or is the fear and trembling still the same when you have to sit down at the clickety-clack of the computer keyboard?</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): Well, actually, I do both. My first two books were fiction and I've been writing more nonfiction recently. But to answer your question, I think that there is an element of fear. I also think that fear of different sorts, fear that you want to represent all the facts and get things right as they're lined up one-to-one correspondence with reality, and also, if you're dealing with people that you don't misrepresent them.</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): But I also wanted to chime in that I think there's also an element of joy involved, too. I actually started much as the way Kecia mentioned, being very interested in science fiction. I was a physics major when I was an undergraduate. And I was just messing around with science fiction and part of that was an element of joy that, you know, I think, begins to recede as you take it more seriously but there's still a good part of that left in it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I want to ask each of you to give me a sense of the role of teacher and student. Some people would argue that good writing can't be taught. Maybe it can be inspired or coached. And James, what do you think about that? You have been someone who, I'm sure, has inspired many people. Do you think that good writing can be taught?</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): I just came out of a meeting - all the people in the writers' workshop, who are often the students, and that issue was raised. It can be inspired. You can teach technical things, but the substance has to come from the individual and I think - what all you can do is encourage the writer to impose order of that substance.</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): The substance, which is, the order is his, better to use it where it can be communicated to others. That's not just about it. You know that - the students are very enthusiastic actually and they're glad to be here and (unintelligible) reading and work. But what - the stress was that this particular community that didn't affirm each other in positive ways and that's what makes Iowa unique.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. Your - the Iowa Writers' Workshops are legendary in the writing world as places where people go to become the next whatever, the next person published in The New Yorker, the next person to win a Pulitzer. Kecia, is that a lot of pressure for you to be in that environment?</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): You know, when I decided to get my MFA, I was 38. And I said, you know what, I'm going to apply to all the top programs, what do I have to lose? If I don't get in - and apparently, a lot of people apply for MFAs who don't get in the first time and then they'd do it again. And I applied to Iowa because of its reputation and because I honestly, I didn't think I'd get in and I got in. And I said, this is what I asked for which was I wanted to step up my game. And where better to do that than at Iowa where you have Jim McPherson, you have Marilynne Robinson and all these great teachers, and mainly again, the sense of the great community of writers. These are the people I learned from, not just the teachers, but also the students because we were all writers together and it's exactly what I asked for.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Randall, you teach at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, but I'm sure that you have studied at the feet not just of people who taught you directly but also inspiration. So James Baldwin once said, the responsibility of a writer is to excavate the experience of the people who produced him. And your book "The Fire This Time" plays off his classic "The Fire Next Time." So what do you think he means by excavating experiences and is that what you do in part?</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): Yes, I think that almost any writing that is interesting comes out of a culture in crisis. And if you know anything about history, almost every culture is at crisis at any given point of time. And I think that, you know, Baldwin, who was a huge inspiration to me, came about as a writer at a time when, you know, we can look back and see all the things that were happening in the civil rights movement. He grew up at a time in the Harlem just before the war - World War II - that was, you know, deeply tumultuous. I think any culture can give a writer a lot of wonderful raw material to deal with and - one step beyond that is our humanity, which every writer deals with.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Humanity, James, what does that mean to you? What do you try to convey through your work, that is - and I guess what I would ask you and this gets asked very often of black writers and I'll just step up to that plate, do you write about an African-American experience or universal experience? Do you write for an African-American audience or universal audience? Or do these thought processes not enter into how you write?</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): They don't enter into how I write. I'd rather write something that's human, negative and positive. And I don't put a racial category upon it, around it, although most of my encounters are black. I looked at the interaction between individuals. Many ethnic groups not always in terms of racial tension but in terms of cooperation. It come and goes (unintelligible) interest.</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): I try to write - Albert Murray gave me the phrase, but it was Allison's best friend, he said, you want to become an omni-American, a person who has a sense of all levels of the society and all groups within the society and so you could find the commonalities, things that they shared - something they shared in common, and so that it goes beyond race. It goes beyond race. And that's what I tried to focus on.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Randall, from the perspective of the marketplace, because folks got to eat, do you think about who your book is targeting, not just in a racial sense but more in the sense of, gosh, am I going to hit the mark? There are people who never found an audience while they were living. And then years later, after their death, they're championed. But, you know, I know that you've got bills to pay if you're like most of us. How do you balance that aspect?</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): You don't. I think that there are, especially for black writers in the last 15 years, of viable, commercial, black literature market, or whatever you want to call it. But I think the kind of writing that I've always been attracted to, commercial success is not guaranteed, is not to be wished for. It's a fluke. And I think that you, you know - I think Philip Roth said that you have about 3,000 serious writers in America. You can probably count on reaching that. Anything beyond that is crazy.</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): And I think that the main goal is to do the work well. Get your - as one of my mentors used to say - take your words, your rewards from the page and just be happy that you can go forward. I mean, I don't mean to sound pessimistic or cynical about the world of letters, but I think that any writer who wants to stick with it and become good at it can't expect financial rewards.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Kecia, is this something that you've made peace with or do you think he's wrong, or how do you feel about that?</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Peace, are you kidding?</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): I - you remember, I was working in I.T., okay?</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): And now, I am here, you know, having recently graduated from the writer's workshop, currently working for another writing program on university, making probably about a quarter of what I used to make. I am in this for the love of writing. I am in it because it is something I - you know, people have dreams and some dreams are just really hard to let go of. And again, I identified as a writer from a very young age, so this is one of those things -I had reached a point in my life where I said, I need to do this regardless. And, yeah, I worry about the bills. But right now, I'm really focused on trying to synthesize everything I've learned in the two years at the workshop and really apply it to my writing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: James, we only have time for one snippet of wisdom from you. But what's something that you tell to your students to inspire them when they're down?</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): I talk about the blues, the tragic and the comic interacting. I talk about how the comic can transcend the tragic. The Greeks did that with comedy. And try to see that it during the day and comedies at night, that the blues does that. I think that you got to sort of phase, first of all, the thing that's causing that mood, and then you got try to find ways to transcend it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I'm going to have to end it there. James Alan McPherson, Randall Kenan and Kecia Lynn. Thank you so much.</s>Prof. JAMES ALAN McPHERSON (Author, "Elbow Room"; Professor, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Thank you.</s>Ms. KECIA LYNN (Graduate, University of Iowa's Writers' Workshop): Thank you.</s>Professor RANDALL KENAN (Author, "The Fire This Time"; Associate Professor, University of North Carolina): Thank you. |
Farah Jasmine Griffin, professor of English and Comparative Literature at Columbia University, shares her latest pick from a shortlist of America's most influential black writers. Today's writer is Richard Wright, author of Native Son and the first black author to make a living writing books. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And now, we've got the discerning literary palette of Farah Jasmine Griffin. All this month, Farah has been presenting her picks for the six most influential African-American writers. And today, she unveils number four on her list. She says he's the first black novelist to actually make his living as a writer. And his name is Richard Wright.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): He came out like a comet. Wright was the first black author, who could make his living as a writer. And his novel, "Native Son," was read by a diverse audience of people and influenced countless writers.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): Bigger Thomas, who is the protagonist of "Native Son," was a character like none we'd ever seen. He was a character feared by white Americans. But he was also a character who a great many black Americans did not like either. During a time when black Americans fell victim to horrible stereotypes, some writers felt that we are to only put forward images of our best, the best representative of the race. Others felt that Bigger Thomas did not really represent the humanity of black people, that he was a figure who believed everything white people had said about him, internalized those meanings. Richard Wright said he created him because he wanted us to be afraid.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): My favorite Richard Wright book is "12 Million Black Voices." And I think I like it so much because it differs a great deal from "Native Son." It's a kind of lyrical, cultural history where Wright expresses a love and compassion for, as well as a solidarity with, black people in the most lyrically beautiful prose that he's written.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): For me, Richard Wright is a very, very difficult writer. I find myself growing very angry with him when I read some of the things that he's written about black women, and yet I come back to him time and time again. It's sort of you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. He gave me a series of tools, analytical tools, for understanding what the experience of black people had been in the United States from "12 Million Black Voices."</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): That is why we black folk laugh and sing when we are alone together. There is nothing, no ownership or lust for power that stands between us and our kin. And we reckon kin, not as others do, but down to the ninth and 10th cousin. And for reason we cannot explain, we are mighty proud when we meet a man, woman, or child who, in talking to us, reveals that the blood of our brood has somehow entered his veins.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): Because our eyes are not blinded by the hunger for possessions, we are a tolerant folk. A black mother who stands in the sagging door of her ginger bread shack may weep as she sees her children straying off into the unknown world. But no matter what they may do, no matter what happens to them, no matter what crimes they may commit, no matter what the world may think of them, that mother always welcomes them back with an irreducibly human feeling that stands above the claims of law or property.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (English and Comparative Literature, Columbia University): Our scale of values differs from that of the world from which we have been excluded. Our shame is not its shame. And our love is not its love.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Farah Jasmine Griffin is professor of English and Comparative Literature at Columbia University.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We invite you to weigh in with your top picks and go to our blog and write to your heart's content. That's at nprnewsandviews.org. |
News & Notes technical director Sherene Strausberg selected this week's staff song pick. When she's not working the faders in our control room, Strausberg writes film scores. Naturally, she chose a song off a film soundtrack. The film is The General's Daughter, and the song is "She Began to Lie" by Greg Hale Jones. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time for our staff song pick of the week. And this week, we've got Sherene Strausberg in the hot seat. She is our technical director for NEWS & NOTES. So, welcome to the other side of the glass.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Thanks, Farai. I love being on this side of the microphone.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what song did you pick this week to share with the NEWS & NOTES folks?</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Well, my song pick comes from the soundtrack to the "General's Daughter." It's called "She Began To Lie," and it's by Greg Hale Jones.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Ms. CHRISTINE SHIPP and Ms. KATHERINE SHIPP (Resident, Mississippi): (Singing) Sea lion woman, sea lion. She drank coffee, sea lion. She drank tea, sea lion. And he gamble lie, sea lion.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's a pretty great song. I mean, it sounds like a mixed of new and old. What's the story behind the old sound?</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Yeah, it's actually an interesting story. Basically, the composer, Greg Hale Jones, went and got field recordings from the Library of Congress. And specifically the one used in this song is from 1939, and it's of a cappella voices that's used as a loop in this song.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Ms. C. SHIPP and Ms. K. SHIPP: (Singing) Sea lion woman, sea lion.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: And the girls singing are Katherine and Christine Shipp. They're sisters in a family of 14 kids. And they are from a small town in Mississippi.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Ms. C. SHIPP and Ms. K. SHIPP: (Singing) And he gamble lie, sea lion.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: It's just really great how he uses this old recording and puts it with new electronic music.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So given how this was set up by Greg Hale Jones, how did he get the old recording?</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: One of the things that's so cool about movie soundtracks is that, often, film studios are going to have the budget to find a buried recording or something underground that nobody else might be able to find. And Greg Hale Jones was able to get this African-American hymn from the Library of Congress. The only reason the Library of Congress allowed him to use this recording was to take the earnings from this recording and make sure that it went to an heir to the Shipp family, which they actually did.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Wow, that is fascinating. And why did you pick this? What do you feel and like about the track?</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: I really love the dichotomy of using something very old and a cappella. Just, you know, girls singing in the field outside and using electronic instruments and live instruments. The composer added in a banjo and harmonica and all those different drumming sounds. And it's that mixed of old and new that I just really love and it creates this incredibly eerie sound.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: Ms. C. SHIPP and Ms. K. SHIPP: And the rooster crow, sea lion. And he got no lie, sea lion.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So how did you get listening to movie soundtracks in the first place?</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: I've pretty much been listening to movie soundtracks since I was a kid. I actually knew I wanted to be a film composer when I was 16 years old. And it took me about 10 years to get to this point but I moved out to L.A. five years ago, and I've been writing film scores ever since. And now I own hundreds of movie soundtracks, and it's really great. I love listening to them as inspiration or just to keep up to date on what's coming out in new film scores. So, yeah, it's just so much great music on film soundtracks.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Sherene, it's really interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing your song with us.</s>SHERENE STRAUSBERG: My pleasure, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sherene Strausberg is our technical director for NEWS & NOTES. And when she's not technically directing, she's buried in her home studio writing film music.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today. Thank you for sharing your time with us. To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog at nprnewsandviews.org. Of course, we have ongoing coverage of Katrina.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African American Public Radio Consortium. Tomorrow, a story of love and loss from a woman who refused to give up her neighborhood to Katrina. |
Breast cancer is the most common form of cancer among women, but it isn't something most teens worry about. Nikia Hammmonds-Blakely was no different — that is until she was diagnosed with the disease at 16. But, 13 years later, she's not only alive but successful. | FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Breast cancer is the most common form of cancer among women, but it isn't something most teens worry about. Nikia Hammonds-Blakely was no different — that is until she was diagnosed with the disease at 16. That news and the ordeal that followed turned Nikia's world upside-down, but 13 years later, she's not only alive but thriving.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Nikia, thank you for coming on.</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): Thank you, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So take me back to that moment when you first learned that you had cancer.</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): Well, like you said I was 16 years old, a sophomore in high school, preparing for my junior year. And basically while everyone else was thinking about turnabout dances and proms, I've discovered a lump while in the shower one morning getting ready for school. But Farai, I have no family history of breast cancer. No one in my community, my church or school obviously had breast cancer and so I really thought not much about it. After a few weeks, however, I went to the doctor for a routine physical and the doctor confirmed that lump. She said, do you feel that? And I said, yes. And she told me I'm sure it's nothing because girls are developing at a rapid pace at your age, but we need to get a biopsy just in case. And at 16 years old, those results came back, malignant and I had a rare and very aggressive form of cancer and the doctors just couldn't believe it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So before we talk a little bit about your treatment, who were you? You know, what kind of girl were you at 16 before the diagnosis?</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): I was just your average mediocre student in school, really didn't take life very seriously. I have a little brother and a little sister. We grew up - a middleclass family in the inner city of Gary, Indiana, you know, it's known as the murder capital of the world. And we could write a book on the poor education and the health care and all of that, but I was your average Jane, very mediocre in school, didn't take life very seriously.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, what was it like to go through the treatment for your cancer?</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): I really felt like the alien of my bunch. As I said, no family history. No one in my church, school, community - there was no one that I could identify with that could tell me, you know what, Nik, I've been through that.</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): They took a large portion of my left breast and it left me quite disproportionate because I'm a heavy chested woman. Even in high school, I was fairly heavy chested. And I would take socks, roll them up into little balls and try to stuff my bra with them.</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): And some days, I didn't quite get it right and I was ridiculed not by - not just by a few of the young people. But I also recalled an experience where I was at a banquet and one of the church members kind of across the table and very loudly said, you know what, you need to go to the bathroom and check yourself out, honey, because you're a little lopsided. And I've tried to laugh it off or joke it off and she kept persisting until I left the table crying in the bathroom. So I had quite a few challenges due to the lack of resources available for me back then.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you are someone who changed your life, became more serious about your school, just got your MBA from Capella. How did this change your life in terms of your vision for who you could be?</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): Breast cancer literally changed my life because that was the first time where I had to look myself in the mirror and make a decision, am I going to live or am I going to die? I heard what the doctors were telling me but that was not the future that I saw for myself. So I had to make a conscious decision, Farai, at that moment, I have to live my life. And no matter how many days left - that I have left, I'm going to live it to the fullest. And from that day on, I just I had a new drive, I had a new sense of purpose. I went back to school and practically made all A's from that point on, ended up graduating with honors. From high school, became the first person in my family to go and graduate from college. And even after that I said I believe there's more for me, went to graduate school, recently finished at Capella University with my MBA in Marketing. And having gone that far with a 3.8 grade point average I said, why don't I keep going?</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): And now, I'm in the doctoral program and I can't tell you the sense of pride that I have knowing that sometimes life throws us blows that we don't expect. But if you make the conscious decision that you're going to live through it and not only live through it but use your life and your experience to help someone else, it can become the greatest blessing of your life and certainly where I'm at in my life now is a testimony of that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Nikia, your story is inspirational and I definitely wish you strength and courage, which you have in abundance, to keep doing what you do.</s>Ms. NIKIA HAMMONDS-BLAKELY (Cancer Survivor): Thank you so much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was cancer survivor Nikia Hammonds-Blakely. She's just been named to the Susan G. Komen Young Women's National Advisory Council. That organization promotes breast cancer awareness among young women. |
What do Iranians really think about the United States, the Iraq War and Iran's nuclear program? Steven Kull, director of WorldPublicOpinion.org, offers an answer based on a poll taken in Iran. | ALEX CHADWICK, host: Iranians read all this news and they make their own opinions. A global survey group at the University of Maryland worldpublicopinion.org polled more than 700 people in Iran earlier this year with interesting results. Steven Kull is director of the WorldPublicOpinion.org. Steven, welcome to Day to Day.</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): Thank you very much.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: This isn't your first opinion poll in Iran. You've tested public opinion there earlier. What changes do you find about how Iranians feel about themselves and about the United States?</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): Views of the United States are still quite negative. One of the most striking things that I found in both the poll and in the focus groups is a perception on the part of Iranians that the United States has extraordinary power over all kinds of things in the world. Large majority of the Iranians in the polls said that the United States controls most of the important things that happen in the world. And when I probed about this they even said in the focus groups that the United States controls Al-Jazeera, that the United States controls al-Qaeda.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Al-Jazeera, the Arab news channel based in Qatar, and al-Qaeda, the sworn enemy of the United States? These are controlled by the U.S.?</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): It goes together with the sense that America is - has this extraordinary power, and that it manipulates things from behind the scenes. But we see some signs of a thawing. While in December 2006, 76 percent had a negative or unfavorable view. This dropped down six points, but most importantly two-thirds had a very unfavorable view, and that's dropped to just half.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I've asked you how Iranians feel about the U.S. because that's a big question for us, but how do they feel about their own government? How do they feel about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the leader of Iran who is such a controversial figure here and really around the world?</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): Overall, they expressed a kind of positive view, and when I was in Teheran I did focus groups there talking to people. People do express that point of view. It's important to remember that they have somewhat tense relations with the Sunni Arab world as well as the United States. So, they feel somewhat isolated and surrounded and this creates a sense of being threatened and that's one of the reasons they pull very close to each other and pull close to their government.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And I wonder within these focus groups where they see that you're there, how is it for you?</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): What's striking to me is that the - you get a different kind of nuance by doing focus groups because in the poll you just get a lot of, mostly a lot of negativity, except toward the American people. There actually 51 percent of Iranians say they like American people and that comes through when you meet them. They do immediately express frustration with America, but you can feel underneath it a real longing to have better relations and an appreciation that you're there and listening to them. So, by the end, they are actually projecting a real sense of warmth.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: How do they feel about nuclear power and nuclear weapons, because this is the big issue between the two countries? It's at least the one that seems to have the most potential to really turn things in a bad way.</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): Iranians have rather strong feelings about this issue. Eight in ten are very determined that Iran should have the capacity to enrich uranium to produce nuclear fuel that could be used for nuclear energy. They support the idea that Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. They support the non-proliferation treaty and interestingly (unintelligible) say that developing nuclear weapons would be contrary to Islam.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Steven Kull, director of WorldPublicOpinion.org, which sampled public opinion in Iran in the early part of this year. Steven, thank you.</s>Dr. STEVEN KULL (Director, WorldPublicOpinion.org): You're welcome.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: To see Iranians' response to questions about the nuclear issue and the Iraq war go to our website, npr.org/daytoday, where you can find a link to the poll.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And NPR's Day to Day continues. |
Comedy writer Peter Mehlman appeals to the Federal Reserve chairman to explain what's going on in layperson's terms. | ALEX CHADWICK, host: There's plenty of dire economic news to hear these days. We've got an unemployment story coming up.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: But here's something lighter. Day to Day contributor Peter Mehlman, a Hollywood comedy writer, wonders how we can even talk about hard times when the language gets so confused.</s>PETER MEHLMAN: We, the people, see Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke on the front page of the newspapers a lot lately. While he offers a fresh way to rhyme up the word Yankee, it should be noted that we don't quite grasp anything he says or does. For instance, we get a queasy feeling, Mr. Bernanke, that you feel that the homes in which we live are all a big mistake. How could that be? We were led to believe that owning a home was the American dream, but now, in the subprime of our lives, you're saying that we'd all do well to downsize our dreams and ship them to China. Is that pretty much the size of it?</s>PETER MEHLMAN: Moving right along, correct us if we're wrong, Mr. Bernanke, but our economy is spiraling out of control. If so, what does that mean in layman's terms, and, when it comes to economics, are there any layman's terms? And, if the laymen start understanding non-layman's terms, is that bad? We only ask because, years ago, some of us were grasping the term GNP when, out of nowhere, they changed to GDP. You're not going to change the word inflation, are you?</s>PETER MEHLMAN: Which begs another question, what does inflation mean? Something about rising prices, right? And, if rising prices are bad, why can't a person of power like, say, you, just order every American business to put all their products on sale?</s>PETER MEHLMAN: Now, on a related matter, or maybe it's not a related matter, who knows, that 600 dollars we're all getting, what do we do with it? Pay down our credit card debt? Buy tons of inflation-bloated junk? Invest it in the stock market?</s>PETER MEHLMAN: And as long as we're on the subject of compulsive gambling, the stock market is all over the place, no? From what we can not entirely glean, the stock market drives the economy, and investing in the stock market drives the stock market, so we should buy stock. But one thing you may not know, Mr. Bernanke, is that, when buying stock in a company, most of us have reached a point where we're happy if the company's CEO isn't indicted within a month of the purchase. Turning a profit? That's just sheer gravy. So the question is, Mr. Bernanke, can't you go to Capitol Hill and throw out some hot stock tips for us?</s>PETER MEHLMAN: Look, we the people, are neck-deep in fiscal ignorance, so we turn our lonely eyes to you. We're not asking for definitive answers to our financial trauma. We just need a little cleanly worded reassurance. A comforting piece of non-gobbeldygook to give us a feeling of foreclosure. Wait, that didn't come out right. Or maybe it did. We, the people, don't really know.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Former "Seinfeld" writer Peter Mehlman lives in Los Angeles.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Stay with us on Day to Day from NPR News. |
Is Sen. Barack Obama moving past "bitter"? Senior Washington editor Ron Elving discusses costly gaffes made by presidential candidates. | ALEX CHADWICK, host: We're going now to NPR Senior Washington Editor Ron Elving. Ron, welcome back to Day to Day, and didn't your mother always tell you never talk about politics or religion at the dinner table? And still, this is what politicians have to be talking about this week.</s>RON ELVING: Yes, my mother also told me, Alex, always be careful that somebody may have a live cell phone on. And even though the audio is very poor, it will look bad in print.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, we'll get to the "bitter" remark in a moment. But first, what about this idea that the Democrats are going to be talking about religion at this forum, and that this is going to be a way to reach, I think, blue collar and religious voters throughout Pennsylvania.</s>RON ELVING: Pennsylvania is a home to many traditional voters. These are the kind of Democrats who have been Democrats for generations, and, traditionally, candidates have tried very hard either to closely identify as, perhaps, Catholics, with some of the traditional values that these voters prize, or to identify with those values in a more intellectual way, in a "I respect you" kind of way.</s>RON ELVING: And what happened with these remarks made in San Francisco was, you got a candidate speaking to a very different kind of constituency out there on the West Coast and expressing what sounded to many, and certainly what just seeing it on the page implied, a lesser respect for these people, that they were in some sense or another clinging. And I think that's the most operative word here, more than bitter, the word cling to guns, to God, to traditional values, to their attitudes towards immigrants, to their attitudes towards other groups other than themselves.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, how has Senator Obama done with dealing with this over the weekend, which kind of became, as you say, by way of this cell phone recording, a complete surprise that these remarks were suddenly public?</s>RON ELVING: He reacted by trying to explain what he was trying to say by trying to put it in other words that didn't imply this notion of disrespect, more importantly, that did not imply that, in some sense or another, people were going to be deprived of their traditional forms of solace, their traditional forms of meaning in life. I mean, this is as much about the fall campaign, when you talk about this quote being used against him, as is it about the April 22nd Pennsylvania primary.</s>RON ELVING: But he also did not back away from the essential point that, in politics, people's economic interests are often set aside for these other questions, and that's done deliberately in politics so as to distract people from their economic interests and make them vote on some of the questions such as gay rights or abortion. A point, by the way, that Bill Clinton made when he was first running for president 16 years ago.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I just imagine that political pollsters and operatives have been trying to measure the effects of these remarks over the weekend. Can you see anything yet?</s>RON ELVING: Nothing quite definitive yet. We saw Gary Hart back in 1984 trying to close the gap with Walter Mondale in the late primaries, last time we had a really close contest this late in the season, and he made a remark off-hand in California about, well, my wife's going to stay here in California, that's the good news. The bad news is, I have to go back to New Jersey, which was also having a primary on that same day. And well, he won in California and got wiped out in New Jersey, less than 30 percent of the vote. People took that remark as being a diss against New Jersey and that cost him last shot at getting the presidential nomination.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So you wonder, if Senator Obama, who is very accomplished at presenting himself, you wonder how he is going to sort of try to address this in the next week in Pennsylvania.</s>RON ELVING: I don't think it would be beyond the realm for him to consider something a little bit like the speech he gave after the Jeremiah Wright sermons went out on video. Not necessarily to address the question about race, but to address, in this case, the very issues he was trying to raise when he made this remark, about the distraction of people from their economic interests by social questions, by social issues, by other concerns.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But Senator Clinton and her supporters have been saying in the last days, this is exactly a dialogue where Democrats get into trouble again and again with American voters.</s>RON ELVING: That's right, and we've seen that, going back really through the era that begins with Roe versus Wade, school busing was another. In 2004, we saw many states putting gay marriage on the ballot. So we've seen this many times, and the Democrats have almost always been on the losing end.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: NPR's senior Washington editor listening in to politics again with us. Ron, thank you.</s>RON ELVING: Thank you, Alex. |
Authorities in Texas removed more than 400 youngsters from a Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints compound last week. Now, the children who once lived in near isolation must transition to mainstream society. | ALEX COHEN, host: In Texas, child welfare workers are figuring out what to do with the more than 400 children now in their custody. The state removed these kids from the compound of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in the rural west Texas town of Eldorado. The children, some of whom are pregnant teenagers, have had little contact with mainstream society.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Joining us now is Elaine Tyler. She's the director of the HOPE organization. It's a group that assists people who have left polygamous families, and she joins us from Utah. Welcome to the program.</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Thank you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Now, you've worked with lots and lots of young women who decided to leave the FLDS. When they first come to you, what are their immediate needs?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Just to learn basic life skills, and basic survival skills, and start building up their self-esteem. They've been taught that outsiders are evil and going to harm them so, first we need to establish trust, and then we need to start making them feel good about themselves so that they can transition into mainstream society.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Do they not know how to do basic things like shop at the grocery store?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Most of the people do know how to shop at the grocery store, but they don't know how to budget their money because they've never been allowed to keep their own money. If the women work they usually turn it over to their husband. If the children work they either don't get paid or what they earn they have to give to their father. We need to get them where they can open a checking account, get a library card, and learn how to use the library, write a resume, I mean, just basic life skills that most parents teach their children these folks don't know. And it's not just the children that don't know it. The adult women don't know it either.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What about basic academic skills?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Oh yes. We've had a couple of teenage boys on our program. One was 17, and I took him to enroll him in the GED program, and I took him to Wendy's beforehand to feed him, and he couldn't even read the menu to read hamburger. He had to order by pointing to the pictures on the wall. And when we took him over to the college to get him enrolled in the adult GED program, he tested at a grade two. Seventeen-year-old young man. So, academically, that is one of the first things we try to do is get these kids to get their GED or, if they're young enough, to get them actually physically enrolled in high school because education, I think, is the key to this whole situation.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, when they leave, I guess they have nowhere to go, right? They're homeless?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): They're homeless. We've got a lot of the kids living in cars, they're just crashing at friends' houses. They call them butt-huts.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What does butt-hut mean?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Butt-hut just means it's a flophouse. That one person may get an apartment and then all their friends will end up coming there after work and they'll sleep on the floor and on sofas, wherever they can crash. But the kids call it butt-huts because I guess there are butts everywhere.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: You said one of the first things you need to do is gain their trust. How do you do that?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): It depends on how the people have been referred to us. If a friend or a family member whom we've helped before brings them to us, then I think they've already kind of opened the door of, hey, these are good people, you can trust them, they're just going to help you. If they're referred to us by say adult probation and parole because they've gotten in some serious legal trouble, then we're I think thought about as an offshoot from a government agency, which we are not. HOPE is a private non-profit charity, we are not a government agency. So, then we have to explain who are and why we're here and we're just here to help. Building trust with them takes a long time.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And in many cases are you dealing with young people who have serious emotional problems from possible sexual abuse?</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Too many of these kids come out and they have been sexually abused, and they've got some real issues. And the girls come out and they carry guilt and shame. I try to keep impressing upon them, hey, you're a victim. You did nothing wrong. Somebody misused you and abused you and just getting them beyond that guilt and shame phase is huge.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, that must take years.</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): In many cases it does take years. Two of the other directors with the HOPE organization left the group out in Colorado City. One left 20 years ago, one left almost 40 years ago, and they're still dealing with the guilt and the shame and those issues. I mean, this is not a quick fix, this goes on for a long time for these ladies.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Ms. Tyler, thank you very much for speaking with us.</s>Ms. ELAINE TYLER (Director, HOPE): Oh, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's Elaine Tyler. She's the director of the HOPE organization. It's a group that helps people who have left the FLDS. |
Diplomatic correspondent Mike Shuster breaks down the latest developments in Iran's relationship with the U.S. | MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. We're going to stay foreign a while longer. NPR diplomatic correspondent Mike Shuster is back with us. Mike, hi.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Hi, Alex.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: We've asked you to look at these U.S.-Iran war talks that we've been hearing again. We'll get there in a moment. First, we've just heard a lot about Iraq and Muqtada al-Sadr. When he is dodging the U.S. in Iraq he is often in Iran. How close is he with the Iranians? Is he their guy?</s>MIKE SHUSTER: I'm afraid that that's not a question that's easy to answer. It's probably not true that he is their guy in the sense that he and his movement is the sole political and military force that Iran supports in Iraq. We know that's not true because Iran formally supports the government in Baghdad of Nouri al-Maliki, his party, the Dawa Party, his allies in the government and the Hakim family that lead the other key Shiite group. The Hakim family has their own militia, the Badr militia that's actually a part of the defense ministry. So, you can't say that Iran solely supports Muqtada al-Sadr. But Iran's - it's fairly clear after five years of war in Iraq supports different Shiite groups to different degrees depending upon the level of violence, and mayhem, and chaos in Iraq. It's probably also true that different elements of the Iranian government and military support to a different degree different elements of the political and military scene, Shiite scene, in Iraq as well.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: OK, this is obviously a big issue with the U.S. government. Here's another one. Iran last week announced that it has added thousands of these centrifuges, which will help it process uranium. That produced a couple of political columns over the weekend saying we have to take the Iranian nuclear threat more seriously, maybe protect Israel more aggressively, and there's suddenly more talk about we're going to go to war with Iran or we should? What is the level of that thinking?</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Well, actually I think that was also stimulated by the Petraeus and Crocker testimony in Washington last week in which they also focused on Iran and Iran's meddling in Iraq as a primary concern of the U.S. military in Iraq. What the Iranian leaders actually said is that they intend to build 6,000 more advanced centrifuges. This will obviously take some time. But yes, it's clear that the United States and the Bush administration and its allies in Europe are greatly concerned about Iran's unwillingness to compromise on this issue of uranium enrichment on their territory. On the other hand, there have been some signals from Iran in recent days that they might be open to renegotiate this or negotiate again or might be willing to put some new proposals on the table. And the United States and the Europeans have recognized that that in fact may be coming. There's always talk when the Iranians talk about their nuclear program. There's always talk of military action, but there are other things going on as well.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: If there is a needle on a gauge, the Bush administration will attack Iran, it will not. Has that needle moved in the last week?</s>MIKE SHUSTER: If it has it has moved by a little bit, not by much, and it's pretty much down below 50/50 I'd say for some time.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: NPR diplomatic correspondent Mike Shuster on Iran. Thank you, Mike.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Thank you, Alex. |
Ahead of the Pope's visit to the U.S., Democratic candidates Clinton and Obama discuss religion at the "Compassion Forum." Princeton University political scientist Melissa Harris-Lacewell analyzes their rhetoric. | MADELEINE BRAND, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. Coming up, asking Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke for some straight talk when it comes to the economy.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: First, this week, we are going to be hearing a lot about religion. Pope Benedict makes his first official visit to the United States. He'll say Mass in Washington and meet with President Bush.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And over the weekend, faith and public life were big topics for rivals Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Both Democratic presidential hopefuls spoke at the Compassion Forum held in Pennsylvania. They agreed, people of faith have a right to bring their religious convictions to public life. While they may have that right, but should they exercise it, and where should religion be in public life?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Melissa Harris-Lacewell is here now to help us answer those questions. She teaches politics at Princeton University, and she writes extensively about religion in public life. Welcome to the program.</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): Oh, it's great to be here.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, let's begin with the Pope. He is a world leader. There are some 70 million Catholics here in the United States. So how much of a role should he have in politics here?</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): Well, I mean, certainly, the Pope should not have any official role in politics here in the United States. But that said, it's not only Catholics, but the Christian church much more broadly, who often looks to the Pope at a minimum as a kind of symbolic leader of the Christian faith. So, while he certainly shouldn't have any kind of official role because we have a separation of church and state, I do think it's important to recognize the way that people respond emotionally and partially within Christian faith to the Pope.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, as you say, we do have separation of church and state. Should he be meeting with President Bush? Should President Bush be holding a state dinner for him?</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): Oh, certainly. The separation of church and state, in my perspective, means simply that we want to protect the state from the undue influence of religion, in the sense that we don't want the state to mandate what citizens believe, nor should any single religious institution be responsible for setting public policy. That doesn't mean that we don't expect religious life to inform the life of government. People who are themselves believers, whether they are political leaders or simply citizens, are going to bring those religious beliefs with them into the public sphere.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, I guess, how do you make sure that politicians are drawing that bright line between what they believe in private and how they act in public? And I wonder if you could turn to the Compassion Forum over the weekend, where Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton spoke very forcefully about the role of religion or faith in public life.</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): Within the context of the Compassion Forum, I mean, it's kind of a funny title. Again, in the middle of a hotly contested presidential debate, to say that we're going to think about compassion. But maybe it's a good thing to draw back a little bit from the battles, both within the Democratic Party as well as across the party lines, and ask some questions about how we ought to be living together as citizens.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: How do the Democrats fare these days? I mean, they used to be painted as out of touch with regular folks when it comes to religion.</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): Now, they are painting each other as out of touch when it comes to religion with regular folks. It's an interesting turn of events. Now, they are actually, in some ways, using this question of faith as a point of political arguing with one another. Now, part of that is because states like Illinois, Indiana, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, have not been very important in the presidential nominating process before. So Democrats have not had to distinguish themselves from one another on these questions.</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): That said, I don't think the Compassion Forum got either Democratic candidate much further with exactly those voters, those kind of blue collar workers, many of whom have faced deep economic crisis, not in just the past seven years, but really the past 20 or 25 years, and for whom their community life and their family life and their religious life has become an important part of how they make political decisions. I don't think that either one of those candidates last night in the Compassion Forum really moved the ball with those voters.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Melissa Harris-Lacewell teaches politics at Princeton University. Thank you very much.</s>Dr. MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL (Associate Professor of Politics and African-American Studies, Princeton University): Thank you. |
Some companies want to use leftover parts of the TV broadcast spectrum to create inexpensive wireless service. Such a move could be dangerous, critics say. | MADELEINE BRAND, host: Gosh, don't we have enough TV channels. I mean, I lose track after, say, number 207.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I actually remember when my TV didn't go past channel 13.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I know. Well, guess what? There are more - even more unused channels out there. It's called white space. And, as NPR's Laura Sydell reports, lots of tech companies and TV broadcasters, they're fighting over them.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Flip through the channels on a TV using old fashioned rabbit ears.</s>Mr. SASCHA MEINRATH (Research Director, Wireless Future program, The New America Foundation): You'll notice that it might go, you know, channel three, channel eight, channel 13. Well, all those spaces in between those channels that actually have reception are empty.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Those empty channels are white space, says Sascha Meinrath of The New America Foundation, a non-partisan think tank.</s>Mr. SASCHA MEINRATH (Research Director, Wireless Future program, The New America Foundation): And what we want to do is reuse those empty stations, those empty spaces, for broadband communications.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Such as cell phones, laptops, PDAs, and, when television goes digital in 2009, there will be even more white space available. The really big tech companies, such as Google, Microsoft, HP, and Dell, all want to use it.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Rick Whitt, Washington, D.C. counsel for Google, says white space could help connect rural areas where commercial companies like Comcast and Verizon don't have a financial incentive to set up networks.</s>Mr. RICK WHITT (Washington D.C. Counsel for Google): You move out into the rural areas, where you'd think, well, I don't have much broadband access here. In fact, quite the reverse. With white space, you could have almost unlimited broadband access given the amount of spectrum available.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Whitt says local municipalities and small companies could use white space to set up their own networks. Urban areas don't have as much white space, but there might be enough to create free municipal networks. Whitt believes that phones could be developed that might save consumers money.</s>Mr. RICK WHITT (Washington D.C. Counsel for Google): So, you may be walking down the street, and maybe there's no white space available there, but you could use WiFi. So it shifts to WiFi because that's the cheapest option. But you turn the corner, and suddenly there is white space spectrum available. And, of course, it's free at that point, and you can shift to that.</s>LAURA SYDELL: It sounds like a nice vision of the future, right? Well, not to everyone. Television broadcasters believe that, if phones and PDAs are allowed to use white space, it could interrupt their signals.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Recently, the National Association of Broadcasters aired a commercial in Washington, D.C. to try and persuade the FCC not to allow open use of white space. In it, an older woman is trying to watch her favorite programs.</s>Unidentified Woman: But if some high tech companies like Microsoft get their way, your picture could freeze and become unwatchable...</s>LAURA SYDELL: It isn't just television broadcasters who are raising red flags. Take Cirque du Soleil, the artsy circus show where acrobats jump from sets and trapezes high in the air. The performers know it's safe to jump when they get stage directions on their wireless headsets.</s>LAURA SYDELL: Mark Dennis runs the audio system for Cirque du Soleil's show KA in Las Vegas. He worries about what might happen if someone in the audience is using a cell phone connected with white space. It might interfere with the performer's wireless headset.</s>Mr. MARK DENNIS (Sound Engineer, Cirque du Soleil): If somebody's hanging out there in a vulnerable position, and something goes wrong. And they're going to make a move, and we can't get to them to tell them don't do it, that could be very dangerous.</s>LAURA SYDELL: No one is using white space right now. Motorola and Philips are trying to come up with technology that uses white space but doesn't interfere with television or wireless mikes. Right now, the FCC is testing them. Broadcasters are doubtful that it is possible to make such a device, but tech companies say they have successfully made all kinds of complicated technologies, they think they can master this one.</s>LAURA SYDELL: The FCC won't release the test results for several months, then it will decide if white space will be used for wireless or left blank. Laura Sydell, NPR News, San Francisco. |
A hundred years ago, two teams were racing to the South Pole. The Norwegian team led by Roald Amundsen made it first, beating British explorer Robert Scott. But only Scott did pioneering science—and photography—along the way. Ira Flatow and guests discuss the achievements of the first Antarctic expeditions. Edward Larson, author, "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science" (Yale University Press, 2011), professor, history and law, Pepperdine University, Malibu, Calif. David Wilson, author, "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition" (Little, Brown & Company, 2011), London, England | IRA FLATOW, host: You're listening to SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. A hundred years ago today, November 1911, two teams of explorers were racing to be the first to the South Pole. Roald Amundsen, a Norwegian explorer, led one party, British explorer and Royal Naval Officer Robert Falcon Scott the other.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Amundsen ultimately won the race; Scott and the other four members of his team died on the way back. But whereas the Norwegian team had one sole motivation, and that is making it to the pole and getting back, Scott's team had a second goal in mind, and that was conducting science along the way.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And indeed, members of his expedition made many pioneering observations in Antarctica, tracking the movement of glaciers, studying ice crystals, collecting fossils, observing seals, penguins, killer whales, and one of my next guests writes about that scientific history in his new book, "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science."</s>IRA FLATOW, host: But of course you have to document the trip, right? So aside from his other duties, Scott learned the art of photography while down in Antarctica, taking pictures around his home base and part of the way on his fateful trip to the Pole, pictures that were lost for decades, but now they have been found.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: My second guest has uncovered those long-forgotten photos in his new book, "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition." And you can see a few of them on our science and arts website if you go to sciencefriday.com/arts.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let me introduce my guests again. Edward Larson is the author of "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science." He's also professor of history and law at Pepperdine in Malibu, California. He joins us from WOSU in Columbus, Ohio. Welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Larson.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Delighted to be back, thank you, Ira.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You're welcome. David Wilson is the author of "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition." He joins us from the BBC in London. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Wilson.</s>DAVID WILSON: Thank you very much.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Now, you are actually a descendent of the famous Dr. Wilson of that expedition, are you not?</s>DAVID WILSON: I am. He was my grandfather's older brother, so my great-uncle.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Your great-uncle. What kind of science did Scott's Terra Nova Expedition do in Antarctica? Edward Larson, give us a little overview.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Actually, it was sort of a predecessor of everything that's being done today. It was really a remarkable achievement. Edward Wilson, David Wilson's great-uncle, was in charge of the overall program, but his specialty was birds. He was studying the penguins especially, took an amazing winter journey.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Shortly before he went on the polar expedition with Scott, he went to Cape Crosier to study the emperor penguins. There were other teams going out to study glaciology, geology. Fossils were very important. They were trying to document the connections between Antarctica and the other southern continents. They were doing oceanography. They were doing regular dredging of the water off the - where their main base was by digging trenches through the ice and then dredging.</s>EDWARD LARSON: They also checked the lakes for small - for algae and different plants growing there. There was seismograph work. They were studying earthquakes, terrestrial magnetism. Basically all the sorts of scientific research, the different types that we continue to do today, they were literally opening a new continent for science.</s>EDWARD LARSON: They were the third in three British expeditions that were funded for that exact purpose, of opening a new continent for science and potentially for empire.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: So are you making the case in your book that Scott's secondary mission would be to have been to get to the South Pole?</s>EDWARD LARSON: Well, that's how it started. You have a series of three expeditions. The first was Scott's discovery expedition in 1901 that was organized by the Royal Society and the Royal Geographic Society in London, Royal Society being the world's foremost scientific association at that time, funded by the British government for the purpose of doing science.</s>EDWARD LARSON: And they kept their ambition, Scott's ambition to reach the South Pole, quiet. They didn't talk about it. Clements Markham, who was the organizer, president of the Royal Geographic Society, certainly wanted to reach the South Pole. They fell far short. They went south with Edward Wilson, David's great-uncle, and Ernest Shackleton, tried to go toward the Pole, fell, as I said, far short.</s>EDWARD LARSON: But their expedition was billed primarily for science. Then Shackleton came back with his first expedition that he led, the Nimrod Expedition, took along some really superb scientists - Edgeworth David, a member of the Royal Society, other top scientists.</s>EDWARD LARSON: They peeled out, fanned out over the Ross Sea area, doing - collecting science. He - with Shackleton, his stated goal was to also reach the pole. He tried, fell 100 miles short, and then Scott came back with his own expedition, again, with this team of scientists who were going off in other directions.</s>EDWARD LARSON: So it's tough to say which came first and which was second. Certainly Scott wanted to reach the pole. That had become actually something of a British obsession. But they wouldn't have considered - it wouldn't have been proper in Edwardian England to not try to do proper science along the way, and it's the science that gave it a measure of respectability that a mere dash to the Pole could never have commanded at that time.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: David Wilson, being part of the family, the Wilson family, of that expedition, were these photos that you discovered in somebody's scrapbook, or how did you find them?</s>DAVID WILSON: Well, I came across them over a glass of gin and tonic.</s>DAVID WILSON: In a bar, in a bar after a sale in London, and a gentleman came up to me and said: You'll never guess what I've got in my collection. And I hazarded a couple of guesses, and the result was he said that he'd found the lost photographs of Captain Scott, at which point I nearly choked on the lemon.</s>DAVID WILSON: But I went round to his flat a couple of days later and looked at the photographs, and there were 109 contact prints, about three inches by four inches. They had the original cataloging numbers visible on them. But they were in something of a muddle. The original catalog had been lost. There were no identifications, and so beyond saying Scott had taken them, it took some years of work to identify them all and sort them all out.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And somebody had to teach Scott how to take photos, right?</s>DAVID WILSON: Absolutely. Well, it goes along with what Ed was saying. You know, the important job of an explorer is to bring back records, you know, maps and scientific records and images of where you've been so that the unknown becomes known. That's part of - an important part of human progress.</s>DAVID WILSON: And originally, you know, the navy had conquered the world with cannon fire. It had mastered it with a pencil and paper. And the tradition of exploration art that all royal naval officers were taught to follow was founded by Captain Cook and his taking of a professional artist with him on his second expedition in 1775, '6.</s>DAVID WILSON: And that was continued right through to Scott's day, and my great-uncle, on his first expedition, was the sort of last practitioner where pencil and paper was more important than the camera as a means of making a scientific record.</s>DAVID WILSON: But Scott was - you know, he's from that era where science and human progress were taken as goods. You know, it's before our cynical age, after World War I and Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II - you know, human progress was considered an unmitigated good. And he believed that the camera and modern technology could open up the polar regions.</s>DAVID WILSON: He developed the first motorized tracked sledges, and he also invited a professional photographer on his second expedition specifically to improve the use of the camera for scientific exploration. And he invited Herbert Ponting along as that man, and he revolutionized the imaging of the polar regions.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: 1-800-989-8255 is our number. We're talking with Ed Larson, author of "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science"; David Wilson, author of "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition."</s>IRA FLATOW, host: As I say, our number again, 1-800-989-8255. As someone who was - went to Antarctica and the South Pole back in 1979, all they talked about was the comparison. I remember they talked about the comparison of Scott and Amundsen. And Scott was basically seen as the amateur, the amateur explorer compared to the knowledge that Amundsen brought with him, you know, having come from Norway and studied under Nansen and all these great explorers.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And people seem to be trying to resurrect Scott's reputation of those years. Did you see this? Did you have that in your mind, Ed Larson, when you were writing this book?</s>EDWARD LARSON: No, I did not have that particularly in my mind. I know it's happening. You can read it in the different books. I'm - I take nothing away from Amundsen. Giving credit to the science of Scott's expedition actually does take nothing away from Amundsen's achievement. Only the Norwegians reached the pole and returned safely, and they did so over an unknown route in less than 100 days with food to spare.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Further, the pursuit of science doesn't excuse Scott for poor choices that, combined with forgivable misfortune, contributed to suffering and death on his polar journey. But it does give perspective. And it gives meaning to the British endeavor. And the one thing that Roland Huntford in his famous book about Scott and Amundsen didn't do was talk about the other aspects of Scott.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Oh, he criticized Scott for Scott's mistakes, and Scott did make mistakes. Amundsen was certainly - planned a better trip to the Pole. But what Scott was also planning was a multifaceted, complex expedition. He had 32 men on the ice. He had teams going all over, where Amundsen had 30 and they were focused on one end. They did that one end better. But if you look at the overall expedition, actually, the British Terra Nova Expedition, Scott's expedition, was actually more modern and a marvel of planning, if not execution.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Here's a tweet, came in from James Healey(ph), who says: Didn't hauling rocks and things helped contribute to the team's death?</s>EDWARD LARSON: Oh, you can certainly say that might have. I mean, their death was - you could have a lot of "but for" excuses - they might not have died but for the weather being colder. They might not have died but for the fact that they stopped and collected geological specimens, very important geological specimens, on the way back at the Beardmore Glacier, when they were already highly stressed. But, on the other hand, if you take those things away, it wouldn't be Scott. It wouldn't be a British expedition.</s>EDWARD LARSON: British, when they traveled - and David mentioned Captain Cook. You can also - James Clark Ross going - discovering this region, they took along artists, they took along geographers, they took along scientists, natural historians making collections. It wouldn't be a British expedition without those. And so while certainly they were stressed - just think of Edward Wilson, David's great-uncle. Before going on the polar journey, he had made this death-defying midwinter journey to Cape Crozier to collect penguin eggs and studying the evolutionary development of penguins.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Scott himself had gone in an opposite direction from the Pole, just a month before leaving for the Pole, to check movements of stakes that had been placed on a glacier to see how much the glacier had moved. Certainly, all these activities made it much less likely for Scott to succeed. Still, he thought he had a margin of safety, that he could do all this science, and with the margin of safety provided by the enormous amount of resources he brought down, that he could still make it back safely. And the surprising thing was that there was a combination of mistakes and chance, with the fuel leaking from the containers in the stores that they didn't expect so they ran out of fuel, and the extraordinary cold that - I know it's always cold in Antarctica - but it was even colder than it - than normal. And it was that combination of taking risks, trying to do science, making mistakes and misfortune. And it took them all combined, because they came so close to getting back, only 11 miles from their supply depot.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Mm-hmm. I'm Ira Flatow. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. Talking with Ed Larson and David Wilson. David, Ponting, the photographer, I think maybe that Ed talked - was touching on this, had an extraordinary bad luck, where there was one incident, in particular, with killer whales almost getting him. Tell us about that?</s>DAVID WILSON: I'm not so sure if it was bad luck as just what goes with the territory in those days, you know, where they had big, heavy, cumbersome camera equipment and so on. And yes, he used to get people to pose on icebergs and they fell off icebergs. And he was trying to film killer whales, and then they decided that they'd try and eat him and came up under the ice, bumping it in the technique that they have, and decided they'd quite like him for lunch, so he nearly got eaten by killer whales. And on another occasion, he licked his lips whilst taking a photograph and it - his tongue stuck to a little part of the metal work on the camera, and it froze to the camera and he had to jerk his head away and left the tip of his tongue stuck to the camera. So...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Wow.</s>DAVID WILSON: They were hazardous times for explorers.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: I did that with a stenography pad when I was in Antarctica. I got it off pretty fast, so - those little curlicue, you know, on the top of the pad. 1-800-989-8255. Let's go to the phones, to Kirsten in Berkeley. Hi, Kirsten.</s>KIRSTEN: Hi. I was calling to say that I have a lot of undocumented photographs from Amundsen's expedition because my grandfather, Magnus Eriksson(ph), was there from Spitsbergen all the way through. And I heard great stories about polar bears and fires, and all kinds of things that had happened. I don't have anything to add to the science. I think it's really great what you're doing. I...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let me just - allow me to interrupt, Kirsten - you say you have photographs no one has seen from Amundsen's expedition?</s>KIRSTEN: Yes, that I inherited from my grandfather. I have pictures...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Anybody interested?</s>DAVID WILSON: Oh, I think everyone will be interested in seeing those if you took them into a museum.</s>KIRSTEN: Yes, I have lots of photographs. I have maps and some things from my grandfather.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Wow.</s>KIRSTEN: And I think even pictures of Mussolini and all kinds of stuff.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Well, David and I were together just last week in Ireland at the Shackleton - Major Shackleton conference, and the people from the Fram Museum in Norway were there. I'm sure - and David's book is beautiful, by the way. The - I'm sure there - lots of museums would be very - right here at Ohio State, Byrd Polar would be very interested in those, but so would the Fram Museum, so would the Scott Archives in - Scott Institute in Cambridge.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Take them out of the attic, Kirsten, bring them out so we can all see them.</s>KIRSTEN: They're in a box. I pull them out and I look at them all the time because I grew up with the childhood stories of the expedition. So I would be - if anybody would like my contact information - I won't give it over the phone, but I will give it to somebody and they can contact me.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right. We'll take - we'll put you on hold and we'll take your contact information. You're in Berkeley. There's got to be a lot of people in Berkeley who can help you out with...</s>KIRSTEN: Yes. If somebody can just put me in touch, that would be great.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: OK. We're going to put you...</s>EDWARD LARSON: I'll actually be there next semester at Stanford, and I'd be delighted to come over and look at those photographs. It'd be an honor.</s>KIRSTEN: OK.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Don't hang up, Kirsten. I'm going to put you on hold.</s>KIRSTEN: I'm not hanging up.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: All right. Good luck with that. That was very interesting. One other thing is that, you know, she talked about Shackleton. Shackleton had his own photographer. He had a guy with a movie camera, didn't he, on his trip?</s>EDWARD LARSON: Mm-hmm.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Gorgeous.</s>DAVID WILSON: Yup. He did. Frank Hurley went south, first, with Douglas Mawson at about the same time as Scott went south, taking Ponting. But his photographs weren't particularly better than the average for the period. It was only when he studied Ponting's film and Ponting's photograph from Scott's expedition that he learned the techniques that really worked in the Antarctic. And that was what enabled him to produce those amazing photographs and the astonishing film for Shackleton's second expedition. So the key is Herbert Ponting's work. And, you know, all photography, up to this day, is a footnote to Ponting's effort. Even David Attenborough's programs find their roots in Herbert Ponting.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: We're going to get more into that, talk more about "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition," and "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science." Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break. I'm Ira Flatow.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: We're talking this hour about the heroic age of Antarctic exploration - a hundred years ago today - and some of the scientific observations that were made on those early trips and some gorgeous photographs that came back that were made by Robert Falcon Scott.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Ed Larson is the author of "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science." And David Wilson is the author of "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition."</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And I wanted to - David, I'll talk to you about those photographs. But before you do, let me just set the stage. A hundred years ago today, at - where were they at this point?</s>EDWARD LARSON: Well, a hundred years ago today, Scott had just left. He had left. He left his base on November 1st. So he was still traveling with the entire contingent of forces that he was bear - bringing to bear on getting south. So he had his tractors that Dave has already told you about, developed these new tractors. They hadn't yet broken down. They would break down very soon. He had ponies pulling sledges. That was an innovation that Shackleton had worked on. He had dogs pulling sledges, and he had himself and others on foot. And they were heading down very slowly. They weren't far past the beginning.</s>EDWARD LARSON: And the idea was that these different teams, this vast number of people, what they'd do is they would fall back in stages. It would be like a Apollo rocket. They would go away, and then they'd drop off supplies, and the tractors stopped, and then the horses would fall back and then the dogs.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Now, Amundsen was much further along. He originally left in September, found out it was too cold, went back and then left in mid-October. Now, he was traveling very rapidly, only with men that would go the entire way. They were dog-sledged, these sleds being pulled, 52 dogs he was starting with in these large teams of 13, 14 dogs pulling a sled, and the cross-country skiers, expert Alpine cross-country skiers. Amundsen had learned how to mush dogs when he took his northwest passage. He was the first person to make the northwest passage. And they were speeding along. At this point, they were speeding along what's now known as the Ross Ice Shelf, and then heading up the glacier toward the pole.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: And Amundsen would mush his dogs all the way up there and actually eat them as part of their food. And - but Scott just man-hauled those sledges. There were no animals involved during the last pushes up there.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Right. The idea was that - he had pretty well determined that the ponies could make it across the Ross Ice Shelf, which is at sea level. But because Shackleton had - the ponies had failed by falling into the huge crevasses going up the Beardmore Glacier, that ponies couldn't make it up that. So the idea was to man-haul.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Now, they had used dogs on the first Discovery Expedition. But the trick with - they had used dogs to pull their sleds, but it hadn't worked very well. The trouble is, it's very hard to mush dogs, as anybody who's ever done it knows, and the British hadn't mastered that skill.</s>EDWARD LARSON: And so if the dog - if you're not mushing the dogs right, it's just a mess. They're pulling in different directions. The British even tried to man-haul and use dogs at the same time, and dogs won't pull with humans. And that combination of events, coupled with the fact that Shackleton had almost made it to the pole, within a hundred miles of the pole, by man-hauling up the glacier and across, led Scott to believe that was the way to go.</s>EDWARD LARSON: One other fact has to be remembered, and that is Scott didn't know he would be in a race. He thought that he was the only one going. So he - it sounds ironic today - he had planned his trip for safety, where Amundsen, from the get-go, knew it was a race. He hadn't announced he was going to the South Pole. He had publicly announced he was going to the North Pole, and then turned on a dime and went south.</s>EDWARD LARSON: And so while, by the time Scott left he knew that Amundsen had come south, when he planned his trip, when he planned his trip with the ponies and the horses and the - I mean, ponies and the dogs and the tractors, he wasn't anticipating a race. He was planning for safety. So it turned out that it was a very unequal race if you're just talking about speed.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Yeah. David Wilson, from an artistic point of view, in - these photos of yours in your book are just fantastic. Do they serve as mere documentation of the trip, or do they aspire to something more? Because there are some beautiful photographs of the snow there, just...</s>DAVID WILSON: Mmm.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: You know? Not...</s>DAVID WILSON: They - yeah, they aspire to considerably more than just document it - just documentation. Scott and Ponting were about replacing the tradition of exploration art with the camera. So they wanted to replace the use of sketchpad and pencil with cameras for scientific purposes. So - but I don't think that even Scott or Ponting realized quite how radical the photographic program was going to turn out to be. Ponting was one of the finest landscape photographers of his time, and he took with him the tradition of Victorian photography. So he produced the most beautiful landscapes, very carefully posed.</s>DAVID WILSON: He would wait for hours for the penguins to get into exactly the right shape to echo the shapes of the mountains behind. All the images were carefully composed, and he produced the most astonishing photographs taken certainly to that date. He also produced pictures in the Victorian tradition of the sublime, you know, small human figures set in vast, icy landscapes. But he was also starting to produce - to sort of push the aesthetic tastes of the time and was taking him - he got interested, when he was down there, in the form and the texture and the shape of ice.</s>DAVID WILSON: And so he started to take photographs which are really a form of proto-modernism. They foreshadow modernism by about 20 years, so they're very, very 20th century photographs. And they weren't particularly popular with the Edwardians when they were sent home, so they tend to forget - get forgotten about. But Scott was taught by Ponting in all those traditions, and it shows in his photographs.</s>DAVID WILSON: But Scott went one further than Ponting. He also - there was a little bit of reportage in his methods, but he also wanted to take action photographs. I think that's a reflection of the man and his character, you know? And so he started taking some action photographs, which are absolutely stunning. I mean, some of the scenes taken on the way to the pole are absolutely amazing. But the primary purpose was scientific, and most of Ponting's images are actually of the life cycles of the birds and the seals and the penguins and all sorts of, you know, different aspects of Antarctic wildlife.</s>DAVID WILSON: They don't often get shown these days, but they were for use in the scientific reports when they got home. And he used, even with his - those sorts of photographs, they're all very carefully taken, very carefully composed, you know, the skewer chicks are put up against rulers so everyone can see what size they are, that sort of thing. But he also had a film camera with him. And with that, he pioneered the modern wildlife documentary and paved the way, as I say, for, well, Walt Disney and David Attenborough, really, and their sort of sequences of wildlife films over the 20th century.</s>DAVID WILSON: And he started to use film as a method of recording life cycles, but he also started making scientific breakthroughs with film. So he was the first to record the Weddell seal making its hole in the ice with its teeth with his film, and he was very proud about that because it disproved a theory of my great-uncle's as to how they kept their holes open through the winter. And so, you know, that's the breakthrough. Prior to that, there had been filming the Antarctic, but it was always sort of entertainment, you know? There's a famous sequence of film from the Scottish expedition where they play bagpipes at emperor penguins and that sort of thing.</s>DAVID WILSON: But this is the first time filmmaking got serious for science in the Antarctic. And it transformed cinema, and people forget that. People tend to dismiss Ponting as Scott's photographer, but he actually pushed, you know, 19th-century photography into 20th-century photography. And he pioneered film. His was the first film to receive a royal command performance, which meant it was shown to the king. And every year ever since there's been a royal command film for the monarch of the period. And prior to that, that was an honor that was only given to the high arts, to opera and ballet and so on. So it was the birth of cinema in some ways, in this country anyway.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Hmm. This is a quite interesting book. It's quite beautiful with those photos that were brought back. Ed Larson, I always thought it was unusual that following Scott's and his party's death and then - and after the winter was over and they went back and found the bodies, they didn't bring the bodies back with them. Why is that?</s>EDWARD LARSON: Well, there were various reasons for that, but that's, I mean, look where they all ended? Shackleton and Amundsen also ended up in polar realms, and that's where their bodies lie. They had - first, it would have been awkward and difficult because then they'd have to - once they got them back, they'd have to bring them back on the ship. But here, they found them in the tent where they died. In a dramatic pose, actually, Wilson and Bowers are at the side in the attitude of sleep, and Scott is open with his arm flung out. His sleeping bag half open, arms flung out across Wilson. They had with them the rocks, the geological specimens that they had collected. They had brought those all the way back to where they died. They had their diaries. They had their journals, which were written up, almost ready for publication. And it seemed fitting that at that place, they build a large cairn of ice.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Because what would happen would be then it would be covered over the years and sink down into the glacier, into the Ross Ice Shelf and then move gradually out to sea so that the best anybody can tell, about this time, the chunk of ice that entombs Wilson, Bowers and Scott will break loose and float into the sea. And to the people on that expedition, that seemed to be the appropriate way to commemorate what they had achieved.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: 1-800-989-8255. Let's see if we can get a phone call or two in here. Let's go to John(ph) in San Rafael, California. Hi, John.</s>JOHN: Hi, Ira. Thanks for taking my call. I'm a biologist who studies whales. And a lot of the historical information that we have about whales and whale biology comes from the pioneering works that the British did in the Antarctic, the British Antarctic survey folks. And also one of the tools that we use as whale biologists now is photography to document individuals and follow individuals over time. So it struck me how important the books that your two guests have are to the field of marine biology and studying whales specifically. So I'm looking forward to reading both books, and all that work in the Antarctic was so critical to what we know about whales today.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Let me just remind everybody that I'm Ira Flatow and this is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. Go ahead. Did you want to react to that?</s>EDWARD LARSON: Well, reaching his point, he's absolutely correct. I want to thank the caller for his observations. The Discovery expedition, which was Scott's first, was designed to follow up on the great Challenger expedition, the expedition of the British of the 1880s, which went around into the Southern Ocean. And that was designed in part to follow up on Ross's expedition and on before that on Cook's. So it was a series of British expeditions, and many of these were designed with a part in mind, whales.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Whales were important part of the economy then. They were monitoring the whales. Scott was very interested in the whales. They did take the photographs. David has beautifully described the type of photographic work they did, and I agree with him. I studied it closely. They viewed this as an integral part of the scientific research they were doing. That was also part of the reason why they moved to filming, to catch movies, to make movies of the whales and especially the penguins.</s>EDWARD LARSON: They'd come back from the Discovery expedition, says, no one can capture these penguins unless you do it with a movie. And so Shackleton, Amundsen, Scott came back, in part, to capture these penguins and the way they moved in movies, partly for entertainment to be sure, and certainly they are entertaining and they become a rage in Edwardian England, but also as a part of - as a critical part of scientific research. So the penguins, the whales, the seals, this was a central part of what all these expeditions were about.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: David, did they actually have a darkroom down there in Antarctica?</s>DAVID WILSON: They did have a darkroom. Ponting had his own darkroom in the hut in which he developed a lot of the film. He actually had the only private space in the expedition hut. So they certainly took it seriously. On the precise question of whales, the Terra Nova expedition was equipped to sample whales in the Antarctic. They took with them some harpoons and things. My great-uncle at the time was involved in one of the great illustrative projects illustrating the standard work of British mammals. And the third volume of which was never published, because he died, was on the Cetacea. And he wasn't terribly happy with the paintings and illustrations he'd made, and he wanted to study whales in more depth.</s>DAVID WILSON: But they'd also spotted species on the Discovery expedition, they though were new species and they wanted to see if they could collect samples, which is why they took the harpoons with them and so on. So they were certainly very, very interested in studying the whales, and the Natural History Museum was interested in them bringing specimens home.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Ed...</s>DAVID WILSON: But...</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Oh, I'm sorry, I just want to interrupt because we only got a minute left. I want to touch on one thing that was quite interesting to learn about, Ed, and that was about that they were also studying global warming at that time here.</s>EDWARD LARSON: Oh, they were tremendously interested in global warming because they had - by this time, during the 1800s, they discovered that Europe had once been covered by glaciers and that the shape of Europe was shaped by these glacial retreats. And they very much - it was very much part of the itinerary for the Discovery expedition and then the Nimrod and the Terra Nova was that this is one place where they could study the glaciers that are still of the size that were in Europe.</s>EDWARD LARSON: They noted the retreat, and they documented the retreat of the glaciers in Antarctica. They were talking about - they were trying to study how much had retreated, how it moved out of dry valleys. Scott had discovered the first dry valleys in the Antarctic during his Discovery expedition. They were documenting global warming, climate change over time.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Quite interesting. And let me just repeat the names of the books. They're terrific books. "An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science" by Edward Larson. And David Wilson is author of "The Lost Photographs of Captain Scott: Unseen Images from the Legendary Antarctic Expedition." David, are there any other photos left? Do you think you have them all?</s>DAVID WILSON: Oh, I don't know. I know we don't have them all, and I'm rather hoping that, like your lady caller earlier, somebody's got them hiding in their attic. And if they have, perhaps they'd call you and tell me.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: Well, we have the number. We'll get you in touch with her and see. She did mention something about polar bears, so we're not quite sure that's the south - Antarctica or not. So maybe he went some other places and had some other photos also. So thank you both for taking time to be with us today. And great...</s>EDWARD LARSON: You're welcome.</s>DAVID WILSON: Thank you so much.</s>IRA FLATOW, host: ...great books. Thank you for writing them. |
Manhattanhenge is the name for the solar phenomena that occurs this weekend in New York City when the setting sun perfectly aligns with the numbered streets running east and west on the city's grid. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There's a little something special to celebrate this Memorial Day weekend if you happen to be in New York City. Manhattanhenge, it's called. For two days, twice a year, on either side of the summer solstice, the setting sun perfectly aligns with the city's numbered streets. Those blocks, running east to west on Manhattan's grid, form a corridor, inducing a sunset that bathes the buildings in warm, amber light.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: One astrophysicist told The New York Times the phenomenon has a lot to do with how the city was constructed two centuries ago. Jackie Faherty says, in the 1800s, when they made these 90 degree angles, they created a bullseye for the sun to hit. And you may have a henge in your town, too. Chicago, Philly, Boston, Toronto and Montreal all produce henges when the timing is right.</s>SPINAL TAP: (Singing) Stonehenge, where the demons dwell, where the banshees live and they do live well. Stonehenge, where a man's a man and the children dance to the pipes of Pan. |
Some establishment figures are showing their support for Donald Trump, who became the presumptive Republican nominee Thursday. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton still can't vanquish Bernie Sanders. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Rachel Martin. It was a tough week for Hillary Clinton and a mixed bag for the presumptive GOP nominee, Donald Trump. Trump got his 1,237th delegate Thursday, just the number to make them the Republican nominee. But he also has failed to produce his much promised presidential pivot, which is making some of his fellow Republicans worry.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton received a scathing report from the State Department inspector general about her use of a private email server when she was secretary of state. To talk more about all this, we're joined by NPR political correspondent Mara Liasson. Hi, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Let's start with Hillary Clinton. She cannot seem to vanquish her rival Bernie Sanders. And she cannot seem to get rid of the email controversy that haunts her.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: That's right. This was a bad week for Hillary Clinton. The State Department inspector general released a report that was very scathing. And it contradicted a couple of assertions she's made in the past about her using a private server for her emails. She'd said in the past that the arrangement was allowed. Now, she never said she asked for permission and got it. But she did say it was allowed. And the inspector general said no, it wasn't allowed. And if she had asked us, we wouldn't have let her do it, or we would've told her not to do it.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: But I think the bottom line of all this is that the emails are the root of her biggest problem, which is that she is seen as dishonest and untrustworthy and her numbers on that are getting worse and worse. And it's depressing her overall numbers with voters.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Meanwhile, the apparent GOP nominee Donald Trump keeps saying he believes Hillary Clinton should be indicted for this. Is that even a possibility?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: We don't know if she'll be indicted or not. We know that the FBI says it wants to bring this investigation to a close relatively soon. There are many people who cover the Justice Department who think she won't be indicted because she didn't commit a crime. But we simply don't know. We do know that Donald Trump will say, no matter what happens, that she should have been indicted. And if she isn't, he probably will allege that the FBI wanted to indict her but there was a corrupt cover-up.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: So if she is indicted, of course it will be a huge negative development for her campaign. And if she's not indicted, it will be critical that the Justice Department and the FBI explain why they didn't and explain why it was unanimous because you can already hear the conspiracy theory industrial complex gearing up around this issue.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, let's talk more about Donald Trump because he had a big week. He finally crossed the threshold, reaching the magic number of 1,237, the number of delegates he needed to become the Republican nominee. So what does that mean in terms of garnering the establishment's support?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Some of the establishment is coming around. As a matter of fact, the coalescing behind Donald Trump, what I call the great accommodation, happened a lot quicker and more broadly than many people had expected. Even Marco Rubio, his former rival, said that he plans to help Trump. He didn't actually endorse him. But Donald Trump will be the nominee. And we will not have a contested convention in Cleveland. That doesn't mean that there won't be protests outside or some controversy inside.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, we just saw more protests last week. Donald Trump was in the Southwest. And there were protesters outside of those arenas in San Diego and Albuquerque.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Yes. Wherever Trump goes, there seem to be protests now. There's also a pattern. Just when you think he's going to be magnanimous in victory or make that much promised presidential pivot, he doesn't. There he was in San Diego railing against the Mexican judge who is hearing the case against Trump University. In Albuquerque, he gratuitously insulted Susana Martinez who's the governor of New Mexico, the only female Hispanic governor in United States history.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: And she is the head of the Republican Governors Association. So she represents three groups he badly needs - women, Hispanics and the Republican establishment. So the concern that many Republicans have is that Donald Trump won't pivot to being more presidential because A, he doesn't think he has to, or B, he can't help himself.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Mara Liasson. Thanks so much, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Thank you. |
The migratory birds of the East Coast are about to get back a piece of habitat they lost to Hurricane Sandy — a freshwater pond in Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge in New York City. | RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hurricane Sandy destroyed a lot of homes and businesses in 2012. But it also ruined crucial natural habitats - in particular, two freshwater ponds in New York City that migratory birds depend on. Now the National Park Service is working together with conservation organizations and volunteers to fix the damage. Eilis O'Neill brings us this story from New York.</s>EMILY NOBEL MAXWELL: When Hurricane Sandy hit, a lot of salty water inundated this site.</s>EMILY NOBEL MAXWELL: EILIS O'NEILL, BYLINE: This is Emily Nobel Maxwell with the Nature Conservancy.</s>EMILY NOBEL MAXWELL: You know, there is the actual breach in the trail just ahead. And that is where there was an inland freshwater pond. The bay flowed into it, so now it's brackish. You can see, you know, dead birch trees.</s>EMILY NOBEL MAXWELL: EILIS O'NEILL: Birch trees and other plants that can't survive salty water died while salt tolerant plants moved in. That's why, on this overcast Friday morning, about 80 volunteers are braving poison ivy and intermittent rain to help put native plants in the ground.</s>LAUREN ALLEMAN: So we have about 2,400 plants throughout the site.</s>LAUREN ALLEMAN: EILIS O'NEILL: Lauren Alleman with the Nature Conservancy is showing them how it's done.</s>LAUREN ALLEMAN: The first thing we have to do is to make sure that the hole that was dug is going to be enough room for the plant to live in. Can you come over and give me a hand? Do you want to just take a scoop of soil out, please?</s>LAUREN ALLEMAN: EILIS O'NEILL: Volunteer Quincy Johnson's here with his school group.</s>QUINCY JOHNSON: I'm 21. Planted my first plant today. I was really excited about it. To be in nature itself is really nice.</s>QUINCY JOHNSON: EILIS O'NEILL: This wildlife refuge is technically part of New York City. But the buildings and streets and chaos seem far away - across the bay from here.</s>KEITH WHITE: Right when I walked up, there's yellow warblers copulating right above.</s>KAT MCGLYNN: (Laughter).</s>KAT MCGLYNN: EILIS O'NEILL: Keith White, with the National Park Service, and Kat McGlynn, with the Nature Conservancy, are both dedicated birders.</s>KAT MCGLYNN: Yeah, we saw - there's orioles here. There's a lot of red starts in our project area. We saw a national warbler.</s>KEITH WHITE: Oh, great.</s>KAT MCGLYNN: We saw a black-throated...</s>KEITH WHITE: Green or blue?</s>KAT MCGLYNN: Green, yeah. Black-throated green warbler.</s>KAT MCGLYNN: EILIS O'NEILL: Every year, about 350 species of birds and lots of people use this refuge. One of those is Erika Bree.</s>ERIKA BREE: Me and my mom have been here lots of times just walking around. Like, I looked for some of the birds by the beach. But I look around, like, what type of plants.</s>ERIKA BREE: EILIS O'NEILL: Erika's here with her mom, Paula Bree.</s>ERIKA BREE: I told her - I said, you know what, you're taking from school today. I says let's do something - 'cause she's been wanting to do this. It's a special place for us.</s>ERIKA BREE: EILIS O'NEILL: Their special place will never again be exactly how it was before Hurricane Sandy. As climate change advances and sea levels rise, scientists expect the refuge to flood again and again. So they're putting in plants that are friendly to birds but can also withstand some salt water. For NPR News, I'm Eilis O'Neill in New York. |