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Beth Howland died in December at age 74. One of her best known roles, was as the original Amy in Stephen Sondheim's "Company." Looking into her past can lead you down a pop culture spiral.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Cultural connections are everywhere now, thanks to the variety show that is the Internet. Today we bring you one example of the cultural rabbit hole. It begins in the newspaper, but takes us around a spiral from television to movies to Broadway, courtesy of NPR pop-culture blogger Linda Holmes. It all started when Linda read an obituary for a woman named Beth Howland.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Well, Beth Howland was an actress. She died in December, as it turns out. But her husband didn't announce it until just this last week, which was apparently in accordance with her wishes. He said it was her Boston side. He said to The New York Times, they didn't want to make a fuss. She's best known to most people as the ditzy waitress Vera on "Alice." Not the one who said kiss my grits, but the other one.</s>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Is anybody going to answer that phone?</s>BETH HOWLAND: (As Vera) Shh (ph) we don't want to caller to know that anybody's here.</s>UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) I know you're not.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There were other aspects to her besides TV.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: That's right. She was, among other things, a Broadway actress. She was in the original Broadway cast of "Company" - Stephen Sondheim's "Company." And she originated the role of Amy. And Amy is the nervous bride who does this wild patter song called "Getting Married Today."</s>BETH HOWLAND: (Singing, as Amy) Pardon me, is everybody here? Because if everybody's here I want to thank you all for coming to the wedding. I'd appreciate your going even more. I mean, you must have lots of better things to do. And not a word of it to Paul. Remember Paul, you know, the man I'm going to marry, but I'm not because I wouldn't ruin anyone as wonderful as he is. Thank you all for the gifts and the flowers. Thank you all, now it's back to the showers. Don't tell Paul, but I'm not getting married today.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: And that song - I saw her record that in a clip from a documentary that was made about the recording of that cast album by D.A. Pennebaker. And that got me going because the most famous part of that documentary is this sequence in which Elaine Stritch is trying mightily to lay down the track for "Ladies Who Lunch."</s>ELAINE STRITCH: Oh, shut up. Actually though, shut up, see, is what I say to myself when I hear myself singing. Shut up. Because I know they're right. I know they're right. And I can't do it.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: And that's on top of "Getting Married Today" and all these other things. "Company" is a really interesting, odd show.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Remind us, this came out in 1970 or so, right?</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Right. And "Company," for its time, is really groundbreaking in that it has these themes about singlehood and relationships. And it follows this single man and all of his married friends. It's an odd little show. And right in the middle of this odd little show is this crazy patter song.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This crazy song that a whole lot of amazingly talented women then did their own versions of, right?</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Right. There are clips of different people singing this song all over the place.</s>CAROL BURNETT: (Singing, as Amy) Listen, everybody. Look, I don't know what you're waiting for. A wedding? What's a wedding? It's a...</s>MADELINE KAHN: (Singing, as Amy) Prehistoric ritual where everybody promises fidelity forever, which is maybe the most horrifying word I've ever heard of...</s>JAYMA MAYS: (Singing, as Amy) Which is followed by a honeymoon where suddenly he'll realize he's saddled with a nut and want to kill me, which he should. So thanks a bunch, but I'm not getting married.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Madeline Kahn, Jayma Mays doing a version on "Glee" and, of course, the great Carol Burnett doing her own version. So, Linda, in your revisiting of all these performances, I understand you found one particular treasure?</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: That's right. I was looking at this song and I'm digging around, as you do, and I found one that showed up in 2012.</s>LIN-MANUEL MIRANDA: (Rapping) Thank you all. Is everybody here? Because if everybody's here I'd like to thank you all for coming to the wedding. I'd appreciate your coming...</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: So that, of course, is Lin Manuel Miranda. As you may know, he is a Broadway composer who is about to win a bunch of Tonys for "Hamilton," almost undoubtedly. And this is just him goofing around, presumably at home. It's quite a video. And again, 2012. So who knew?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Even I, as not necessarily a student of this stuff, I can discern that this is probably a difficult song to sing.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Right. So if you want to know how to sing this song exactly right, here's the good news. We have you covered there as well. Because this rabbit hole is endless. So...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Wow, this is a deep rabbit hole.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: It is. In 1984, for "The South Bank Show," which was an arts show on British TV, Stephen Sondheim did what they called a master class where he taught a bunch of students from the Guildhall School of Music how to sing various songs of his, including "Getting Married Today."</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>DAVID: (Singing) Rest of my life.</s>STEPHEN SONDHEIM: Hold on one second, Dave. David, address that to her. Address that to her so you have somebody to play with. No, no, you're fixed on the congregation. You're fixed with...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Amazing. And Beth Howland took you to all these places.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: This is how it works, right? You're in this culture where, you know, an individual actress who didn't want a big fuss made about her life is only a step from Lin Manuel Miranda, a step from Stephen Sondheim, obviously, a step from Elaine Stritch. And they're all - once you're talking about creative people, that creative work exists in this big web. And it's much less separated by the idea of the high and the low and the British and the American.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: And there's a giant mushing of all this stuff together. And it's amazing how far you can get if you start at one place and you just say, what's the next step? What's the next step, you know? Because another one of those master classes is about "Send In The Clowns." You want to do 10 minutes about "Send In The Clowns?"</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Oh, yeah, can we do that next time?</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: 'Cause you could.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This has been such a fun rabbit hole to go down with you. Thank you, Linda Holmes.</s>LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Thanks, Rachel.</s>BERNADETTE PETERS: (Singing) Somebody hold me too close. Somebody hurt me too deep. Somebody sit in my chair and ruin my sleep.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you're listening to WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News.

A new poll suggests that John McCain would be even with a Democratic rival in November. NPR News Analyst Juan Williams talks about the poll's findings and about President Bush's decision to attend the Beijing Olympics opening ceremonies.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen. The Olympic Torch arrived in Argentina, the latest stop on what's been a chaotic world tour. Unlike earlier stops in Paris and San Francisco, there have been no reports of protestor disruptions in Buenos Aires so far. But, then again, the torch traveled with the kind of security usually reserved for heads of state. President Bush will be there to see it when the torch arrives in Beijing for opening ceremonies on August 8th. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown is boycotting the ceremony. For more on the politics of the games we're joined by NPR news analyst Juan Williams. Hi, Juan.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Hi, Alex.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: So, Gordon Brown's not attending. French President Nicolas Sarkozy is boycotting the Olympics too. What kind of pressure is President Bush feeling to stay away from the opening ceremonies?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, he's feeling less international pressure and more domestic pressure given the controversy about the Olympic Torch out in San Francisco, and the way that the local government has had to in fact detour it to avoid protestors. But also from presidential candidates, including his fellow Republican John McCain, who just came out in the aftermath of Senator Clinton saying that he should definitely stay away, and Senator Obama saying he should consider it. Now, John McCain also says that President Bush should consider staying away. But in an interview this week the president said that, you know, as he put it in his own way, Alex, you know, he said, oh there's that Darfur crowd, you know, and you've got people who are concerned about the global warming folks, he says, but he's going there because he believes that he will raise his concerns about human rights, he will raise his concerns about the Dalai Lama, and he says he's met with the Dalai Lama, and the Chinese would be wise to do so; they'd find him a wonderful guy. And he says he thinks that will have more impact than a boycott.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Let's turn now to the future U.S. president. There was an AP/Ipsos poll taken earlier this week and it showed that the presumptive Republican nominee, Senator John McCain, has now pulled even in head-to-head match-ups with either Senator Clinton or Senator Obama. Juan, is this a sign that we're starting to see some damage from this ongoing Democratic primary race?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: I'm not sure, Alex. That's one interpretation. The other is that we're starting to see - the big news out of that poll was that Senator Obama, who'd held about a 10 point lead, 51 to 41 as recently as late February, is now at 45, 45 with Senator McCain. Senator Clinton, who led McCain by about five points, 48, 43 in February, continues to lead him by that margin but, of course, that's close to the margin of error. To continue his policies on the most hot button issue of our time, the war in Iraq, is running head to head with the Democrats. Now, as you suggested it could be that the Democrats are damaging each other. But I think that there's also an alternative explanation, which is that John McCain is seen by people as not quite fully Republican, that swing voters like him, view him as a maverick and independent, thoughtful person, and they've come to identify with him apart from President Bush and he's succeeding like almost a third party candidate as opposed to the Republican candidate.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: So Juan last night I was watching TV, and I saw all three candidates on the same show. This wasn't a debate. I confess I was watching "American Idol," and the candidates were all on. They were talking about the show's charity drive, and I have to say, John McCain totally stole the show let take a listen.</s>Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona): American Idol is a lot like a presidential primary election, except for people who live in Michigan and Florida. Their votes actually count. As for me, it's back to work on my new immigration plan. Watch your back, Simon.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: With all of the stuff that these guys have on their plates right now they take the time out to go on "American Idol," why?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Oh what an audience! You're watching, my wife is watching, they know where the audience is, and it's telling us that the Democrats took no chances. The one telling jokes, kind of snarky jokes, was John McCain and touching what for him is a very hot issue, immigration you know, with Simon Cowell who's a Brit. So, I think that no question John McCain was the star of the night. He gets my vote on "American Idol."</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Let's just be thankful they didn't sing. That's NPR's News analyst Juan Williams, thanks Juan.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: You're welcome, Alex.

With more than 100,000 people stranded by the American Airlines debacle, hotels and concessionaires are making a mint. Sam Eaton talks about the trickle-down effect of the grounded planes.

SAM EATON: Well Madeleine, the fallout is enormous, especially when you factor in all of the economic ripple effects. Over the past week the Federal Aviation Administration's wiring inspections have forced American Airlines to ground, as you were saying, more than 3,000 flights. That's likely to cost the airline somewhere in the high tens of millions of dollars, and it goes far beyond the lost flight revenue. There's the 500-dollar vouchers that some travelers are receiving, credits for airport hotel rooms, transportation to and from those hotels, the extra overtime for American's employees. And then of course there's the lost good will of many of the 250,000 passengers affected by this week's cancellations, not to mention their lost dollars. Some estimate the cost to passengers exceeds that of the airlines by a factor of three or four. Think of all the canceled vacations and business meetings.</s>BRAND: And American Airlines, so it sounds at least from a PR prospective, will be feeling this for some time.</s>SAM EATON: Yes, yes, it's a huge financial factor, and you just look at the slew of bankruptcies hitting the industry over the past few weeks, and you realize timing is a huge factor as well, Frontier being the latest to join that group today. It's no accident that these filings come as the price of oil surges. I talked with airline consultant Mike Boyd, and he said the industry is bleeding cash right now because of high fuel costs.</s>Mr. MIKE BOYD (Airline Consultant): There isn't a single airplane flying in the airline industry anywhere in the world that was designed with even the inkling that oil would go over a hundred dollars a barrel. So, we're dealing with a fleet that basically is obsolescent from a fuel point of view, and airlines have to restructure.</s>SAM EATON: So, you throw in the timing of the FAA's inspections, which many say are political cover for the agencies lax oversight in the past, and you've got some pretty angry people.</s>BRAND: OK, let's get to the good news if there is any. The economic silver lining - I guess all those Cinnabons are getting some extra cash.</s>SAM EATON: Sure, I don't think airport concessions are complaining this week. They're definitely selling a lot of Cinnabons as you were saying, a lot of hot dogs as well. The same goes for airport hotels, many are running at full capacity, but that's not likely to last. Mike Boyd says long-term airlines will be forced to raise fares if the cost of fuel doesn't come down. The question is whether passengers will be willing to pay those higher prices as the experience of flying continues to get worse, as well as the state of their pocketbooks. Unfortunately, there aren't that many good alternatives to flying in the U.S., especially over long distances. You look at the cost of driving, it's not getting any cheaper with rising gas prices, and passenger trains aren't exactly prepared to handle the large amounts of travelers as well.</s>BRAND: Thank you, Sam, for that gloomy news. Sam Eaton of Public Radio's daily business show, Marketplace.

Donald Trump does not poll well with Latinos. NPR's Rachel Martin asks Mario Guerra, a former California mayor, about whether Trump will hurt efforts to get Latinos to vote Republican.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Rachel Martin. In California, Republicans have been working for years to bring Latino voters into the GOP fold. They were starting to have some success until Donald Trump. The Republican nominee's rhetoric around immigration is famously incendiary. He most recently attacked a federal judge presiding over the Trump University lawsuits because of his Mexican heritage.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: To talk more about how Donald Trump is affecting the Latino vote, we spoke with Mario Guerra. He's treasurer of the California Republican Party. Guerra has been at the forefront of the party's efforts to court Latinos. I asked him if he supports the GOP nominee, which is a complicated question for him. Here's how he responded.</s>MARIO GUERRA: Well, us here in California, we've been working hard to make a lot of strides to build up our party, especially with a growing minority that'll soon be the majority in so many years, the Latino community. So we're working hard to make sure in the state of California that we change attitudes and we get a see of the table. But sometimes this election has hurt us.</s>MARIO GUERRA: And some of the rhetoric you see here on all sides, not just by Donald Trump, have definitely hurt the perception of Latinos and something we have to work hard to make sure that doesn't get in the way of participation.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Will you support Donald Trump in the general election?</s>MARIO GUERRA: Well, I'll tell you what, the one thing we can't have is Hillary Clinton as president. In California, last year, we changed our party platform to make it more inclusive. So we're making great strides. I mean, there's more Republicans on city councils and in school districts in the state of California than there are Democrats.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But the top of the ticket, the presidential election, can affect those down-ticket races. How are you seeing that play out? Are you concerned that having Donald Trump at the top of the ticket will jeopardize some of those local regional races?</s>MARIO GUERRA: Yes, we're obviously always concerned when the values of each candidate are skewed by the opposition. You know, you have, in some districts, the opposition, the Democratic, are putting pictures of Donald Trump next to the Republican candidate, even though they has nothing to do with it - so yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how do you make the case to Latino voters who say to you, listen, Mario, I get it. And I'm sympathetic to some of the Republican Party platform. But Donald Trump is talking about building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico. And they're concerned, perhaps, about some of the language that he has used when he's talking about illegal immigration.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: He wants to deport 11 million people who are here illegally. How do you respond to constituents who express those kinds of reservations about him?</s>MARIO GUERRA: I tell them this. I said, look, our state has the highest taxes - income taxes - in the country, and yet, we're in the lower ten of education. We have problems, and we're democratically controlled. I'm telling you, we can't have this on the national level. Latino values are no different than anybody else. Immigration is not the number-one issue for Latinos.</s>MARIO GUERRA: It's far from it. Latinos want jobs. Latinos want education. Latinos want a fair playing field for everyone.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Mario Guerra is the party treasurer of the California GOP. Thanks so much for talking with us.</s>MARIO GUERRA: Thank you so much, Rachel, God bless.

Venezuela just became one of the few countries in the world that does not sell Coca-Cola. Tom Standage of the Economist tells NPR's Rachel Martin what that says about the Venezuelan economy.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Venezuela has just become one of the few countries in the world where you cannot buy a Coca-Cola. Other countries include Cuba and North Korea. But it's not because of embargoes in Venezuela. It's because there isn't enough sugar. Venezuela is in the middle of a deep recession. The country has been dealing with a food shortage and the world's highest inflation.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: To talk more about this, we've reached out to Tom Standage. He's the deputy editor of The Economist and the author of "The History Of The World In 6 Glasses" (ph). He joins us now from London. Thanks so much for being with us.</s>TOM STANDAGE: Thanks for inviting me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: First off, how did Venezuela get to the point where they don't have enough sugar? What economic policies got them there?</s>TOM STANDAGE: Well, the whole of the Venezuelan economy is just in a big mess. Essentially, Hugo Chavez, the previous president, had this, you know, great idea of a socialist revolution where he would give lots of money to the poor. And it all looked really good to start with. Essentially, the whole thing was funded by oil money. The oil prices collapsed. Chavez has died. His successor Nicolas Maduro is in a bit of a bad way because, actually, as well as giving money to the poor, the regime was helping itself to massive amounts of money.</s>TOM STANDAGE: And they're now in this very odd situation where the official exchange rate means that you have to pay something like 10 bolivares for a dollar. The unofficial exchange rate, the black market rate, is about 100 times higher than that. And members of the regime are still allowed to exchange this pretty worthless local currency for dollars, which they can then sell for 100 times as much. So that means that they are not really terrifically well-incentivized to change this ridiculous policy.</s>TOM STANDAGE: And in the meantime, there are shortages of lots of products because if you import any products, there's no way you want to sell them at the fixed prices the government is forcing you to sell them at. If you're a sugar producer, you certainly don't want to be making sugar because you're forced to sell it at this ridiculously low price.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So people seize on this whole idea of Coca-Cola not being available in Venezuela 'cause it's a catchy headline. But you argue - you have written in your book that it has symbolic power - that this particular product and not having it has symbolic meaning. Can you explain why?</s>TOM STANDAGE: Well, Coca-Cola has always been the nearest thing to capitalism in a bottle. And, in fact, in 1997, The Economist did this correlation of Coca-Cola consumption in different countries. And it turns out to correlate positively with wealth, quality of life and social and political freedom. Now, of course, that's not because Coca-Cola causes all of those things. It's because, we think, free market capitalism encourages all of those things.</s>TOM STANDAGE: And whenever a country opens up, like Burma, for example, recently has - who are the first people to move in? You see the Coca-Cola lorries going in. And they go in and they find a partner. And, you know, off they go. So it really is this sort of symbol of moving towards greater economic freedom. And obviously, in Venezuela's case, we sadly have this example of Coca-Cola going the opposite direction saying - actually, you can't have that anymore in the same way that you can't have social, political freedom, quality of life and economic growth.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what happens now? How does this country get itself out of this - what has become a very devastating recession?</s>TOM STANDAGE: It really is very hard to see an easy way out. The difficulty is that the opposition won the most recent election. And so they are trying to have a sort of recall vote to get rid of Maduro who's technically meant to be in power until 2018. And I think if change does come, it will be because people within Maduro's own party see that he is unviable.</s>TOM STANDAGE: And the only way that they can keep control and keep their cushy jobs is to push him out. So will the revolution happen within his own party, or will there be a sort of explosion on the streets? Neither of these scenarios is terribly nice. It's all really quite frightening.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tom Standage is deputy editor of The Economist. He also wrote a book titled "A History Of The World In 6 Glasses." Tom, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>TOM STANDAGE: Thank you.

The U.S. continues its "pivot to Asia," as security concerns in the region grow. This week, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will address a joint meeting of Congress, a rare honor.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Before he was elected India's prime minister, Narendra Modi was barred from entering the U.S. under a law that makes officials responsible for, quote, "severe violations of religious freedom." Modi, when he served as chief minister of the state of Gujarat, was accused of failing to stop the massacre of nearly a thousand Muslims there.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yet, since becoming India's prime minister, Modi has been welcomed to the United States several times. This week, he'll be given the rare honor of addressing a joint meeting of Congress. NPR's Julie McCarthy reports that the close relationship represents a renewed American focus on Asia.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: For two countries who are not formal allies, there's been unusually close interaction at the top. President Obama and Prime Minister Modi formed a bond, says Raja Mohan of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.</s>RAJA MOHAN: You never had this level of intensity of the relationship. It is a way of saying, look, by the time the next administration comes, they have a good foundation to build upon.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: The final Obama-Modi bilateral meeting will include trade, nuclear issues and clean energy. Their cooperation is given the gloss of democracy's protecting shared values. But Rahul Bedi, an analyst with Jane's Defence Weekly, says the U.S.-Indo relationship increasingly turns on defense.</s>RAHUL BEDI: Most definitely. A large amount of this relationship is principally driven by a strategic and military considerations. And everything else follows.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: Both countries are keen to secure the sea lanes of the Indian Ocean, through which two thirds of the world's oil shipments pass. Bedi says Washington wants India to enhance its military capability, especially its Navy. And the U.S. is stepping up maritime cooperation, sharing aircraft carrier technology and selling billions in arms to India.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: It is, says Bedi, a bid to deepen their partnership and construct a counterpoise to China.</s>RAHUL BEDI: Nobody says this directly, but indirectly and privately, they do admit that the elephant in the room really is the Chinese.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: The possibility of the Chinese setting the rules of Asia's strategic environment is deeply disquieting to India, which shares a 2,500-mile-long border with China. Dhruva Jaishankar, a fellow with the Brookings Institution India, says New Delhi has a big stake in preserving a balance of power in the Asia-Pacific.</s>DHRUVA JAISHANKAR: What is desirable in the official line is India desires a multi-polar world and a multi-polar Asia. And cooperation with the United States is one big element of that.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: Beijing is building up its presence in the ports of Sri Lanka and Pakistan. It now has its first overseas base in Djibouti on the Horn of Africa. Retired senior diplomat Neelam Deo says India is hedging against any unfriendly maneuvers by a closer alignment with the United States. However, Deo says, India prefers a loosely defined security arrangement.</s>NEELAM DEO: India is not going to be an unambiguous ally in the way that the United States is used to having equations with its NATO allies.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: Joint patrols in the South China Sea, for example, are off the table. Rahul Bedi says even as the two countries move closer, the Indian predilection to be a lone ranger narrows the scope of engagement.</s>RAHUL BEDI: India wants to retain its strategic insularity and its strategic independence. America wants to grow India into its embrace. It's very complex cat and mouse game that's being played between the two sides.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: There's worry, too, that embracing the U.S. will irritate China. But Raja Mohan says there's little evidence of that and that India ought to expand ties with the U.S. and at the same time, have a give-and-take with China.</s>RAJA MOHAN: That is, there is room with the Chinese. And I think Modi has understood it. Do more on defense with the Americans. Do more on economics with the Chinese. On infrastructure and arrange of investments, the Chinese are there. So they can be valuable partners for us as well.</s>JULIE MCCARTHY, BYLINE: In Washington, Prime Minister Modi will be welcomed for a second time at the White House, a working visit to consolidate what President Obama has called one of the defining partnerships of the 21st century. Julie McCarthy, MPR News, New Delhi.

The sports world is mourning the loss of Muhammad Ali. NPR's Rachel Martin speaks about Ali's achievements with Mike Pesca, host of Slate's The Gist podcast. They also look ahead to the NBA finals.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Time now for sports.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The sports world is mourning the loss of one of the greatest athletes of all time. Muhammad Ali died Friday night. He was not just a boxing champion. He was also an outspoken civil rights activist. We'll talk more about the champ's legacy with Mike Pesca in a moment. But first, we're going to turn our attention to the NBA finals. And game two's tonight.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Cleveland Cavaliers have some work to do. Mike, hi there.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: Hello. How are you?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I am well. So tough loss Thursday night for Cleveland?</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: It was quite a tough loss. I think Cleveland came into the finals knowing intellectually, perhaps, that the Warriors are this great team. They hadn't beaten them in a half-dozen games, going back to last year's finals and not even coming close. But the Cavaliers, they had a pretty easy time in the Eastern Conference. In fact, LeBron, while his team - LeBron James - was tied two-two against the Raptors said, I have had my back against the wall.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: I have faced adversity before. And this ain't it. So talk about taking an opponent casually. But he did. Well, guess what, LeBron? This is it, this now in the NBA finals 'cause if they don't win and if they go down two-nothing, I hate to say a game is a must win. Actually, I don't. I like to say it because it makes it more dramatic.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: And this is something akin to a must win. And the way they lost was so crazy because Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, the shooting guards, the backcourt of the Warriors, had the worst combined scoring game all year. And the Warriors still won easily. Shaun Livingston led the Warriors in scoring. He had not done that all season.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: It's the first time any player has led a team in the NBA finals.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I didn't even know who that guy was. And all of a sudden, he's like the rock star.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: No one does. Right, the other Warriors are like, is this guy on our team?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: No, he's a very good player. But the point is he's not the stars. And if the Cavaliers have such a tough time with Steph and Klay missing shots, what are they going to do when they get on track? It could be tough.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what is with the Cavaliers strategy? I mean, they're just a star-based team or do they need - do they even have a bench to put out there?</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: Yes, they have a bench. But I don't think the key is their bench. I think the key is their second and third best players, at least offensively, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving. And Kyrie Irving, I think, wanted to prove that he was as good as Steph Curry. He's not. Kyrie should play his game and stop dribbling around the perimeter so much and looking to light it up.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: I mean, there are definitely adjustments they could make. But I think this is just concentration and getting serious and limiting all those turnovers that led to Warriors' points.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Lastly, let's turn to Muhammed Ali. I mean, this is a man with such a multifaceted, complicated, amazing life. It's hard to sum up a legacy in a minute or so. But what are your thoughts on the legacy he leaves behind?</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: When ESPN, at the end of the century, talked about the greatest athletes of the last century, of the 20th century, they named Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali. And I think Michael Jordan benefited from recency bias. It's got to be Muhammed Ali and maybe Babe Ruth as the two greatest athletes. By the way, all three of those athletes were flawed.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: And we love them for their flaws. But the great thing about Muhammed Ali, I mean, no one has transcended a sport or really an industry, his job, his profession, more than Muhammed Ali did. The civil rights era was writ across Muhammed Ali. And let's just say this, he's known as the greatest 'cause he dominated his sport. In a way, his sport predeceased him.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: I mean, boxing has been on the wane for so long. And yet, Muhammad Ali passes and we still say, this is the most compelling figure that most of us have ever seen in our lives.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Mike Pesca, he is the host of Slate's The Gist podcast. Mike, thanks so much.</s>MIKE PESCA, BYLINE: You're welcome.

U.S.-backed Sunni neighborhood watches are eager to become official members of the Iraqi security forces. The United States is spending millions to retrain the former insurgents, hoping to keep them productive members of society.

ALEX COHEN, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Alex Cohen.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: MADELEINE BRAND, host</s>ALEX COHEN, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. Coming up, who is Sarah Marshall? The online campaign behind the film "Forgetting Sarah Marshall" is pretty clever, but will it actually get people to see the movie?</s>ALEX COHEN, host: But first...</s>ALEX COHEN, host: They are known as the Sons of Iraq. Nearly 100,000 strong, many of them were insurgents who once targeted U.S. forces. Now they work for the American government. These mostly Sunni fighters get 300 dollars a month to man checkpoints throughout Iraq. As NPR's Tom Bowman reports, the challenge is trying to find them permanent jobs and paychecks from the Iraqi government.</s>TOM BOWMAN: South of Baghdad more than 15,000 of these Sons of Iraq are helping Colonel Dominic Caracillo keep the peace.</s>Col. DOMINIC CARACILLO (U.S. Army): And we have under our purview 780 Sons of Iraq checkpoints, which help thicken our lines to ensure the population is protected from the insurgency.</s>TOM BOWMAN: And the colonel's Iraqi counterpart Brigadier General Ali Jassim says some will be accepted into the Iraqi police. He spoke through a translator to Pentagon reporters.</s>Brigadier General ALI JASSIM (Iraqi Army): (Through Translator) Over 3,000 people received approval by the Prime Minister Malki so that they will be integrated into the police forces. And they have been vetted, and they have been given training so that they could join the police forces.</s>TOM BOWMAN: Across the country there are more than 100,000 Sons of Iraq, but no more than 20 percent are being accepted into the police force and army. The question is what will happen to the other tens of thousands when the security contracts run out with the American government? Lou Lantner thinks he has the answer.</s>Mr. LOU LANTNER (Leader, Provincial Reconstruction Team): One area that we're working on right now is setting up a vocational technical school. We call them voc-techs. We intend to have courses offered that will train people to work at some of the factories that now exist in our area of operations.</s>TOM BOWMAN: Lantner runs a provisional reconstruction team in the area. These PRTs are groups of American experts trying to rebuild the economy. This is now a major project for both the Americans and Iraqis. How to shift these one time Sunni insurgents into the economy, convince them they have a place in the new Iraq being run by a Shi'ite dominated government, so they don't once again pick up a gun and point it toward American or Iraqi forces. The Americans are putting in 150 million dollars to help train Sons of Iraq to become plumbers, electricians, computer repairmen. The first of several hundred students are expected to start training in the coming weeks.</s>Ms. MICHELLE FLOURNOY (Defense Analyst, Center for Strategic and International Studies): There is a lot of vocational and job training in the works.</s>TOM BOWMAN: Michelle Flournoy just returned from a two week trip to Iraq at the invitation of Ground Commander General David Petraeus. She was a Pentagon official in the Clinton administration, and now is a defense analyst. Flournoy thinks job training is a good idea, but says more of these Sons of Iraq will have to be accepted into the security forces.</s>Ms. MICHELLE FLOURNOY (Defense Analyst, Center for Strategic and International Studies): Some of them come from security backgrounds. They've been in some form of security job, protecting their community, or in some cases they've been insurgents who've come back over, but they're not going to want to go become the satellite TV repairman or the computer guy. They want to be accepted as members of a security force.</s>TOM BOWMAN: Just last week Prime Minister Nouri-Al-Malki held a reconciliation conference in Baghdad pledging that all Iraqis will have an equal place in society.</s>Prime Minister NOURI AL-MALKI (Iraq): (Through Translator) National reconciliation isn't as some may think, a gain for one side and a loss for another, or sharing of interests and influence on the basis of quotas and incorrect entrenchment. Rather, it's a gain for the homeland, and represents a lifeboat that carries Iraq to safety.</s>TOM BOWMAN: But some Sunni lawmakers felt there was no room for them in that lifeboat. They walked out of the conference. One reason, not enough of these Sons of Iraq were being accepted into the Iraqi security forces. Again, Michelle Flournoy.</s>Ms. MICHELLE FLOURNOY (Defense Analyst, Center for Strategic and International Studies): I think it's very important for the government to accept more than the 20,000 or so that they've pledged to accept. I think if they are not more fully integrated they will see that as evidence of lack of willingness towards reconciliation, lack of fairness on the part of the central government.</s>TOM BOWMAN: But there's no indication that the Shi'ite dominated government is willing to do that. They have concerns about the loyalty of these gun-wielding Sons of Iraq if they become part of the Iraqi forces, and there are doubts among some Pentagon officials whether the Iraqi government will ever come through with paychecks for the former Sunni insurgents, even if they're factory workers or computer repairman. If that's the case, American taxpayers may continue to foot the bill for the Sons of Iraq. Tom Bowman, NPR News, Washington.

Bob Hung is the only Mandarin-speaking officer on patrol in Monterey Park, Calif., which is half Chinese. NPR's Rachel Martin talks to Hung about why it is so difficult to recruit Asian officers.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Like a good Chinese son, Bob Hung's parents expected him to grow up to be a doctor, a lawyer, maybe an accountant. Instead, much to his parents' disappointment, he became a cop. In fact, Bob Hung is a sergeant and the only Mandarin-speaking officer on patrol in the city of Monterey Park in Los Angeles County.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Monterey Park is home to the largest percentage of Chinese-Americans in the country, nearly 50 percent of the population. The department there is working to bring more Chinese speakers in. And it's not an easy task. Bob Hung joins us now. Thanks so much for being with us.</s>BOB HUNG: Glad to be here.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So with such a large Asian population, especially Chinese speakers, it would seem like not a tough thing to be able to recruit Mandarin-speaking police officers. But it is. How come?</s>BOB HUNG: Well, the reason there's - culturally, there's a lot of barriers to overcome. You know, a lot of our families were raised to go towards a white-collar work. And blue-collar work or public safety is not something that we are pushed or encouraged to pursue.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how did this become a career path that you decided was a good fit for you?</s>BOB HUNG: You know, it was a little bit of a journey for me to follow the path of law enforcement. You know, like, I wanted to fulfill my parents' dreams of coming here to the United States and obtaining an education. After graduating from the University of California, Irvine, you know, I pursued, you know, finance and economics. And I tried those fields for a couple of years.</s>BOB HUNG: And I just was not happy. Every single morning, I'd wake up and question myself why I was following this career path that wasn't happy?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what did your parents say when you told them for the first time that you wanted to be a police officer?</s>BOB HUNG: Well, you know, they were a little bit in shock. My uncle even offered to pay for my law degree. But at the time, you know, I wasn't interested. And once my heart was set on pursuing law enforcement, I told my parents that this is the path I wanted to pursue. I told them that I truly believed in bridging the cultural and language gap between the immigrant population.</s>BOB HUNG: And I believed I had the ability to do that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I understand your mom in particular had a lot of hang-ups about this kind of work. What were they? What were her specific reservations?</s>BOB HUNG: Well, I think a lot of it has to do with her cultural experiences in Taiwan. And in Taiwan, you know, law enforcement is not viewed upon the same way as it is in the United States. So a lot of her cultural, possibly biases, almost carried over.</s>BOB HUNG: You know, the fact that law enforcement academy recruits have to shave their heads gave a connotation of either you're a gang member or you're a prisoner or you're a soldier. In addition to that, in Asia, in the past, mainly, there's a lot of corruption tied to law enforcement.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What happened when you got onto the force and you started getting out into communities and you were able to talk with residents in their native language? How did they respond to you?</s>BOB HUNG: I do see a sign of relief or a sign of connection. I think it eases a lot of the tension and apprehension. And so it brings a sense, I think, of relief a lot of times when there is someone who's able to, at a minimum, communicate with them.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Are you a better cop because you can engage with residents in their - in Mandarin, in their native language?</s>BOB HUNG: You know, I don't think it makes me a better police officer. But I think it does allow the agency in really following one of the main theories of law enforcement. And that is community policing. You know, in community policing, it's about engaging the community, and one big part of that is the language.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What does your mom think now?</s>BOB HUNG: I think she's proud. She has come to accept the fact that this is my chosen career path. And she's proud that I'm serving the community of Monterey Park.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Police Sergeant Bob Hung of Monterey Park, Calif. Thanks so much for talking with us.</s>BOB HUNG: Thank you, Rachel.

Saudi Arabia recently presented a vision for the future of the kingdom. NPR's Linda Wertheimer speaks with Thomas Lippman of the Middle East Institute about the most ambitious part of the plan.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Saudi Arabia is on the brink of change. The kingdom recently presented its ambitious plan for the future called Saudi Vision 2030, which would, most notably, reduce the country's dependence on their most lucrative export, oil. This comes at a time when Saudi Arabia's oil prices are at their lowest in over a decade. The architect of this grand vision is Mohammed bin Salman, the deputy crown prince and 30-year-old son of King Salman. For more on how he plans to shake up Saudi Arabia, we're joined by Thomas Lippman. He is an expert on Saudi Arabia at the Middle East Institute in Washington. Welcome.</s>THOMAS LIPPMAN: Thank you. It's nice to be here.</s>LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: First, could you tell us a little about the deputy crown prince? He seems to have amassed a significant amount of power in a relatively short time.</s>THOMAS LIPPMAN: A little over a year ago, this young man came out of nowhere, as far as anybody outside Saudi Arabia knew. The position he's in essentially was created for him, and a lot of people assumed that it was some kind of political or dynastic mistake by his father. Now, he has established himself as a young man who's quite creative. People who have met him and had long conversations with him, including President Obama, have come away impressed with his energy and his ability.</s>LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: So assuming this vision for 2030 is mostly his work, how does Saudi Arabia plan to reduce its dependence on oil?</s>THOMAS LIPPMAN: Linda, I - my initial reaction to this was one of complete skepticism. But I have heard from people who say that two things have happened. One is that the king has made clear that this young man has the power and the mandate, and he can cross traditional lines of authority between cabinet ministries to make things happen. The other is that the very drop in oil prices that you mentioned seems to have finally galvanized their leadership to do some of the things that everyone has known for some time are necessary.</s>LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Well, now what about this business of trying to change the lives of Saudi Arabians? Do we think that there is something going on there, or something that we can expect?</s>THOMAS LIPPMAN: Well, the most important dynamic and visible change that is taking place and will accelerate in Saudi Arabia is the status of women and the expansion of women in the workforce. The Saudi government has recognized for several years now that even when oil price is high, the government can't afford to go on, year after year, educating all the women of Saudi Arabia from kindergarten through university and not recoup any productive output.</s>THOMAS LIPPMAN: And it's partly driven not because some prince had a vision in the middle of the night. It's being driven by economic reality. But habits of thought and social practice are deeply ingrained in this society and the Al Saud, the monarch and the princes, are not interested in rocking their own boat. They need to go in some different directions, but they need to do it, at least in their view, in a way that will remain politically manageable.</s>LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Thomas Lippman is an expert on Saudi Arabia at the Middle East Institute. Thank you very much for coming in.</s>THOMAS LIPPMAN: My pleasure.

Brazil is facing questions after ousting its first female president. The largest nation in Latin America is dealing with a huge corruption scandal that's engulfing its business and political elite.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. Rachel Martin is away. I'm Linda Wertheimer. A massive corruption scandal, an imploding economy, the Zika virus and soon to be the host of the Summer Olympics, Brazil faces some major challenges. The nation's first woman president is out of office and facing an impeachment trial, and a new male president is in. We are noting the sex of the two politicians because gender, among other things, has become an issue for the new government. NPR's Lulu Garcia-Navarro reports from Rio de Janeiro.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MAN: (Speaking Portuguese).</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: With great fanfare on national TV, the new cabinet of right-of-center Michel Temer, the 75-year-old interim president, was announced one by one.</s>MICHEL TEMER: (Speaking Portuguese).</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: Temer then made a speech calling for a government of national unity and salvation after the ouster of leftist Dilma Rousseff. Rousseff has not been accused of corruption but rather fiscal mismanagement. That's in contrast to nine of the new ministers and Temer himself, who are implicated in the massive corruption scandal in Brazil that surrounds the state oil company.</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: Two of the ministers, planning and tourism, are being formally investigated for accepting bribes. Wags on social media and beyond were quick to note that rather than moving in a new direction to a brighter future, this government seems to look back to an unsavory past in another way, too. All the ministers are white and male.</s>JULIANA BARBASSA: Brazilian women have made tremendous progress in the last few years. They make up nearly half the workforce. In general, they're better educated than men. And you don't see that represented on there. This isn't even an issue of feminism. It's just an issue of representation.</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: That's Juliana Barbassa, Brazilian author. Famous musicians and artists are also upset about Temer's actions in his first few days in office.</s>FERNANDA ABREU: (Speaking Portuguese).</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: Renowned singer Fernanda Abreu is among a large group of well-known musicians, like Caetano Veloso, in Brazil who wrote a letter to Temer after he did away with the Ministry of Culture in an attempt to cut the bloated federal bureaucracy here.</s>FERNANDA ABREU: (Speaking Portuguese).</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: She tells me, "the investment in culture and education should be the priority of any government, independent of their political leanings." Leftist movements are also worried about the minister of justice, who has a history of cracking down on activists.</s>JOAQUIN PINERO: (Speaking Portuguese).</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: Joaquin Pinero is a member of the national board of the Landless Movement, and he spoke to us via Skype. Pinero says, "we have no doubt that the persecution of social movements will intensify."</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: A few other salient facts about the new cabinet - the new sports minister who will oversee the Olympics has a business that supplies the games, raising questions about conflict of interest. The new minister of trade is an evangelical pastor who believes in creationism and is a former TV exec. He was initially appointed to head the Science Ministry, but because of an outcry ended up with the trade job. The new agriculture minister is nicknamed the soybean king. He's a billionaire whose business interests directly intersect with expanding agriculture.</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: Despite that, environmentalists are cautiously optimistic over the new environment minister, who successfully oversaw the portfolio under a previous government.</s>PAULO BARRETO: I think it was an advance.</s>LOURDES GARCIA-NAVARRO, BYLINE: Paulo Barreto is one of Brazil's leading environmentalists. He says Dilma Rousseff's time in office saw environmental protections seriously eroded. That said, interim President Temer's support in Congress, where he will have to lobby to pass much-needed economic reforms amid a massive recession here, comes from the so-called beef caucus. And they are no friends to the environment. Lulu Garcia-Navarro, NPR News, Rio de Janeiro.

A British woman who was sent home from work for not wearing high heels has launched a petition asking that it be illegal for a company to require women to wear them.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: An office worker in Britain has called attention to a double standard. Last week, a London receptionist launched a petition to force her company to change its dress code. Back in December, Nicola Thorp, working as a temp, was sent home for wearing a pair of flats instead of the 2-to-4-inch heels required by her employer, the temp agency Portico.</s>LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: It is still legal in the U.K. for a company to require female staff members to wear high heels. Thorp's petition called for the rule to be changed. Her complaint struck a chord and quickly gained more than 100,000 signatures, according to the Guardian newspaper - so many signatures, in fact, that the government is now required to respond.</s>LINDA WERTHEIMER, HOST: Hoping to duck charges of sexism, Portico has now changed its policy and said that its female employees may wear flats. Score one for sensible shoes.</s>TRAFFIC: (Singing) And the thing that you're hearing is only the sound of the low spark of high-heeled boys.

Fires continue to rage in Alberta, Canada, threatening neighboring provinces. NPR's Melissa Block speaks with CBC reporter Evan Dyer about the continuing crisis.

MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. Rachel Martin is away this week. I'm Melissa Block. Wild fires continue to rage in Alberta, Canada, near the tar sands where hundreds of thousands of barrels of oil are produced each day. Yesterday, the fire caused the shutdown of one of those facilities and the premier of Alberta, Rachel Notley, said it may very well reach the edges of another. Over 80,000 people have been evacuated in Fort McMurray and the surrounding area.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Evan Dyer is a CBC reporter in Lac la Biche, Alberta halfway between the fire and Edmonton, where the fire command center is. And he joins us from one of many evacuation centers. Evan, welcome to the program.</s>EVAN DYER: Thanks so much.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: And what are you hearing from the folks who've been evacuated?</s>EVAN DYER: We hear some crazy stories from evacuees escaping through the flames. Just to give you an example, yesterday I heard about a couple who had been separated when the fire broke out. The husband was at work. The wife had a 3-week-old baby. She put the baby in the back of their truck and started heading south out of Fort Mac. And she went to a part of the highway where the fire was on both sides. Her rear well started to melt. Her headlights started to melt. She got through the fire, and her husband found her on the shoulder of the road. She was in such fear, he actually had to pry her fingers off the steering wheel.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Oh my goodness.</s>EVAN DYER: And he said if the car had been gas rather than diesel, it probably would have killed them. So we hear a lot of those kinds of stories of people having very narrow escapes.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: And is there any sense of when all those tens of thousands of people who've had to flee - when they might be able to go home and see what, if anything, is left?</s>EVAN DYER: Well, the premier of Alberta has told everybody don't expect this to be a matter of days. And I think that that's sinking in for the evacuees. A major part of Fort McMurray is already gone, and everybody knows that they're out for quite a while.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: And the weather is making this all worse, right?</s>EVAN DYER: Yes. I mean, the weather over the long run, over the whole winter weather was less snow than usual. Then suddenly, the weather turned very, very hot. We had about 82, 83 degrees yesterday. That's unseasonably warm for here. And finally the wind - and the wind constantly changing direction - and that makes the fire extremely unpredictable.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Do they have enough firefighters to try to keep this contained, if not under control?</s>EVAN DYER: There are over 500 firefighters up there. There's, I think, something like 18 water bombers and 17 helicopters fighting this fire. But the people who are in charge of that effort all say that weather is going to be the only thing that ultimately can stop this fire.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: And is there relief in sight from the weather?</s>EVAN DYER: No. I mean, we've gotten no rain in the forecast for the next week out.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Evan Dyer is a reporter with the CBC. He joined us from an evacuation center in Lac la Biche, Alberta. Evan, thanks so much.</s>EVAN DYER: Thanks.

The Labor Department announced new rules to make millions more Americans eligible for overtime pay. Annie Lowrey of New York magazine talks about what this could mean for businesses and workers.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is Hangin' On, our series about the economic pressures of American life. And today, we're talking about overtime. Lots of people work way more than 40 hours a week in this country. And they don't see a bump for that extra time. The Obama administration is trying to change that. And this past week, the Labor Department announced new rules that raise the threshold for people eligible for overtime pay. Annie Lowrey writes about the economy for New York Magazine. And she joins me now.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hi, Annie.</s>ANNIE LOWREY: Hey, there.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Can you, Annie, give us a simple explanation of what's being proposed and roughly how many people it could potentially impact?</s>ANNIE LOWREY: Sure. So right now you can receive overtime pay, in some cases, if you're making money per hour and in other cases if you are a salaried employee who is making less than $23,660 a year. The Obama administration just moved that cutoff, which is a federal regulation, up to $47,476 a year. And so that has made about 4.2 million workers eligible for time and a half when they work more than 40 hours a week.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I imagine there are a lot of people in the business world who have opinions about this. Is this something that's going to end up being prohibitively expensive for businesses?</s>ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, businesses hate this (laughter), especially businesses that have a lot of workers in this wage band 'cause it really does just force them to, first of all, ensure that they have a system to make sure that they know how many hours their employees are working and second, to pay them more. But the Obama administration has basically said - you know what? -on net, we think that this is good for workers. They've tried a lot of policies to help flush more money to these middle-class families, some of which have succeeded, some of which have failed.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So there are people on Capitol Hill who don't think this is necessarily such a good idea, a lot of Republicans in particular. But is there anything Congress can do to keep it from happening?</s>ANNIE LOWREY: So Congress can't stop it through the Congressional Review Act. That said, they can attach a rider to legislation or pass legislation blocking it. The question is whether they're going to do that because if they don't do anything, then this is going to come into effect on December 1.</s>ANNIE LOWREY: And so, it's certainly possible that Republicans in Congress could block it. But this is a fight that the White House wants. You know, they want to say, hey, this going out to 4.2 million relatively low-income or middle-income workers. And these Republicans, you know, want to make sure that you have a small enough paycheck. That's a pretty good talking point for them, they think, because it forces Republicans to basically, you know, go back to the argument that this is bad for business, which is, in the White House's view, probably a less powerful talking point.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What is the real impact? I mean, will this have a real impact on wages? Or is this more of a political statement in an election season?</s>ANNIE LOWREY: It will have absolutely an impact on a lot of workers' earnings. That said, there are a lot of businesses that are going to make changes to kind of blunt that impact. So for instance, they might say to some of their workers - we're really sorry, but we you can't work more than 40 hours a week. Similarly, they could also set base pay a little bit lower so that even with the overtime added, the overall pay that they're giving to a given worker in a year is not so much affected.</s>ANNIE LOWREY: But, you know, the bulk of the evidence suggests that, yeah, this is going to help force more money to this pool of workers. And part of the reason is that, you know, say that you're a salaried worker who's making $35,000 a year again, right? It's pretty hard for your employer to come to you and say, hey, we're reducing your base pay by $3,500, you know, in order to make up for this overtime rule. Those prices for workers tend to be kind of sticky. And workers really don't like that when employers negotiate them down in that way. And so for that reason, it's going to help ensure that those workers are just getting a raise that the White House wants to make sure that they get.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Annie Lowrey of New York Magazine. Thanks so much, Annie.</s>ANNIE LOWREY: Thanks for having me.

A program in Afghanistan that was meant to promote peace is under review. NPR's Rachel Martin talks to Douglas Keh of the UN Development Program about the success the program.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: For several years, the international community has actually been paying low-level members of the Taliban to hand over their weapons and give up the fight. The project is called the Afghanistan Peace and Reintegration Program. And it's now up for review because funds are drying up.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Douglas Keh is country director for the United Nations Development Program, which helps administer the reintegration effort. He told us via Skype from Kabul that the program was started back in 2010 with high hopes.</s>DOUGLAS KEH: The monthly allowance for many of these ex-combatants was about $100 a month. Back then, the basic assumption was that it was, indeed, economic factors that were driving the conflict and that would therefore be able to lead many of these fighters away from the fighting force.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I don't have to tell you there have been countless accountability reports by the U.S., by the U.N. that detail the widespread corruption within various parts of the Afghan government. Are you sure that that money has gone to where it was supposed to go?</s>DOUGLAS KEH: We can't say that every dollar was used in its intended purposes. That can't really be said for, I would say, hardly anything here in Afghanistan. But I do believe that, overall, our focus on monitoring the funds was successful. Was the program successful in terms of achieving the right goals? That's a different question. When we look back now - in retrospect, you know, it's always 20/20 hindsight. But the basic idea of using a DDR program - disarmament, demobilization and reintegration program prior to a peace agreement - you know, those of us who are here now, we look back and say - what was the rationale behind that? - because usually, there should be some real...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Peace first and then demobilization?</s>DOUGLAS KEH: That - you know, that was flipped in this particular case. And I guess there was quite a strong, I don't know, maybe hope is too idealistic a word. But there was some aspiration that, indeed, by using this type of, you know, funding - international support, we could chip away at the monolith of the insurgency to draw away from the conflict fighters that would be motivated by financial incentives.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Although that's totally - it's not sustainable, is it? I mean, for a short-term gain, but - do you just continue to subsidize these fighters and to pay for their loyalty?</s>DOUGLAS KEH: Well, in all development work, the basic idea is, you know, use initial financial support as a catalyst. But also focus on the long-term market-driven factors that can create jobs for the long term. Again, if we had had the chance to do this all over again, I think we would focus much more - well, number one, on seeing what we could do, even in the absence of a peace agreement that would be sustainable - and that's a mistake we made. The government needs to be coming up with a new Afghanistan Peace and Reconciliation Program Chapter 2.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Would a Afghan Reconciliation Program Part 2 even work today without a peace deal? - because there still is not a peace deal.</s>DOUGLAS KEH: You know, there's been 15 years of, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of support to Afghanistan. But there hasn't been enough focus on - how can we build the foundations for this government to govern independently? And that's how I would describe the basic term of capacity-building. And, you know, I anticipate the next four years will probably be the last significant for international aid going to Afghanistan.</s>DOUGLAS KEH: We would need to do everything we can in the next four years to build those foundations. And at this point, you know, the government is still 95 percent dependent on donor aid for its development - 95 percent. So I believe that we can do a lot, even in the absence and being realistic this time, not putting the cart before the horse, saying look - progress towards a peace agreement is underway. But we're not there yet. And we shouldn't take anything for granted like last time.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Douglas Keh is the country doctor for the U.N. Development Program in Afghanistan. Thank you so much for talking with us.</s>DOUGLAS KEH: Thank you for covering this important issue.

The Afghan government says that a U.S. drone strike in Pakistan has killed the leader of the Afghan Taliban, Mullah Akhtar Mansour.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is WEEKEND EDITION from NPR News. I'm Rachel Martin. And we begin this hour in Afghanistan because the government there says the leader of the Afghan Taliban has been killed by a U.S. drone strike this weekend. It's a clear reminder that while the U.S. is no longer in the lead and its presence there is a fraction of what it used to be, there is still a war happening in Afghanistan. In a moment we'll talk with a U.N. official based in Kabul about a program that's been trying to pay Taliban members to give up the fight. But first, we turn to NPR's Tom Bowman who is in Afghanistan now and joins us for the latest on this drone strike and the apparent death of this Taliban leader. Tom, good morning.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What do we know about this operation that the Afghan government is now confirming killed Mullah Mansour?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Well, the Pentagon and also officials here say there were multiple drones involved in this mission by the American special operations forces. And it was authorized by President Obama. And the attack took place in a remote area south of the Pakistan city of Quetta and not far from the border with Afghanistan's Kandahar province. Now the Taliban has not confirmed the death. That Afghan intelligence agency says he is dead. And the Americans, for their part, are saying they're still assessing the results of this attack.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tom, this is a Taliban leader who, at some point, was supposed to have been killed before, right?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: That's right. Back in December, Mullah Mansour was involved in a gunfight with rival Taliban leaders over in Pakistan. In the reports, he was wounded and later died. And there are times, of course, when U.S. airstrikes claim they've killed someone and that's not the case.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Now, Mullah Mansour has led the Taliban for the past three years. And he took over from the original Taliban leader this Mullah Omar who sheltered Osama bin Laden. And that, of course, led to the American intervention.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You are in Afghanistan now. You've been reporting on the war there, though, for years. So Tom, what does it look like to you? How strong is the insurgency right now? And what would it mean to have Mullah Mansour out of this war?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Well, the Taliban, Rachel, made quite a few gains over the past year. They grabbed areas of southern Afghanistan and Helmand province that the U.S. Marines fought for seven years ago and paid a very heavy price in casualties. And now the U.S. has sent troops to work with the Afghans at lower levels in Helmand province closer to the front lines. And they're going to try to help the Afghans push back the Taliban.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: But, you know, it's too soon to say what impact Mullah Mansour's death will have if, in fact, he is dead. We spoke with one analyst here today in Kabul, Haroon Mir, who said it could be a game changer. And that's because you have no clear successor to Mullah Mansour. And the Taliban has fractured into rival groups.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: So you could have, on the one hand, no leader and multiple rival groups with no clear direction. But he also said there could be more Taliban attacks, more suicide attacks, to show the Taliban is still out there and basically seeking revenge for this.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Tom Bowman reporting from Afghanistan. Thanks so much, Tom.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: You're welcome, Rachel.

Acclaimed authors — including Ta-Nehisi Coates and Michael Chabon — have begun penning comic books, to great acclaim. Coates' first issue of Black Panther is the year's top-selling comic so far. The first issue of Black Panther, written by Ta-Nehisi Coates (with art by Brian Stelfreeze) is the top-selling comic of 2016 so far.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There are some unusual author names on the shelves at comic shops this year - Ta-Nehisi Coates, Michael Chabon and Margaret Atwood, to name a few. As the lines between genres get blurrier, big-name literary authors are venturing onto the comic pages. Coates' initial issue of "Black Panther," a new take on one of the first mainstream black superheroes, is the year's biggest-selling comic so far. We talked with George Gustines about this trend. He writes about comics for the "ArtsBeat Blog" at The New York Times.</s>ART GUSTINES: I think it's been a slow progression. A few years ago, there was quite a few crime novelists and thriller novelists who entered the industry - Greg Rucka, Brad Meltzer. I think it all starts because they have a passion for comics and...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Just themselves? Like, a personal love?</s>ART GUSTINES: Right, they're fans. And people notice in their novels references to comic book characters. And I think the companies realized that they were fans and said, are you interested in writing some comics?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And they've been remarkably successful, right? These things make money.</s>ART GUSTINES: For sure. Brad Meltzer did a run on "Justice League," and he had sort of a superhero mystery and identity crisis that sold like gangbusters. And of course today, Ta-Nehisi Coates on "Black Panther" - an incredible writer, a character who's having his moment. Marvel is hitting it on all levels with that one.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So I will admit that when I just happen upon these things or flip through them, there just seems like there's so much going on that I can imagine being distracted. Like, is there a way in which the graphics distract from the narrative?</s>ART GUSTINES: That's an interesting question. I think if you're not used to reading comics, there's probably a little bit of a trial and error period so you can figure out the flow of the page. I mean, the better the artist and the better the writer, they know how to pace a page so that your eye sort of naturally follows where they want you to go.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Who's the audience today?</s>ART GUSTINES: It varies. There's big efforts by all the companies right now to try to find young readers again. Comics matured very fast in the '80s and '90s. And I think they forgot that they appeal to kids, so now there's a lot of material that's aimed at them. So it's a full range right now. I think the sweet spot are people my age, in their 40s, because they grew up on comics and they've evolved and grown with these characters. But the important thing for people like me to remember is, like - I think the characters span generations, so it's important to let new readers come in and enjoy the characters as well.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How does an author have to change their style for this format kind of technically, I guess is my question.</s>ART GUSTINES: They have a lot less space in a comic. Even a short story would be longer than a typical comic, so the big thing is pacing. They just have to understand it's a lot more limited space. With a novel, obviously, there's no limits to what they can present. With a comic, you have 22 pages to present the story.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: George Gustines is a senior editor with The New York Times. He is a comic book fan, in case you couldn't tell. George, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>ART GUSTINES: Thank you. It was a lot of fun.

Leslie Blanchard worried her daughter might bully another child, and decided to nip it in the bud. She tells NPR's Rachel Martin how she did it.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Many parents are on alert for signs that our kids are being bullied, right? But how do you know if your child is the one doing the bullying? Leslie Blanchard has five kids and one day, years ago, she got a sign from her daughter that she might be headed down that path. Leslie wrote about it on her blog. It's called "A Ginger Snapped." And we found her story on The Huffington Post. Leslie Blanchard joins us now from Norman, Okla. Hey, Leslie, thanks for being with us.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: Hey, thanks for having me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So let's talk about this. Your daughter at the time was in fourth grade. And as you recount the tale, she came home from school one day and told you that a little girl in her fourth grade class named Bethany was annoying her. And that's the word she used - right? - annoying her.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: Yes, annoying her.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's, like, a normal kid thing to say. So why was it a big red flag for you?</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: Probably just the way she said it. She said, she's sitting by me at lunch and following me around on the playground. And I said, you mean trying to be your friend?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: And she said, yes, she's annoying me. And I knew my daughter had a little group of friends, a little posse or a little clique or little whatever you want to call it, and...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...She was popular. She was like...</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: ...Yes, she was. I mean, I know we all hate that word, we really shy away from saying it, but that's just the truth.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: And, you know, I kind of had this theory about having some social bank, you know? And I feel like when you've got some social bank, you can risk it a little bit for somebody that maybe doesn't have some social bank. And I just really encouraged her to - you know, to get to know this little girl. I said, you need to come home and tell me three things after school tomorrow that you learned about Bethany. And she said, absolutely not. I'm not doing that. And that continued on into the night. And we got up the next morning and she got dressed for school and I told her I wasn't taking her to school. And I did not take her to school until 1 or 2 o'clock that afternoon. She was only in school...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Until she conceded - until she agreed.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: That's right, she conceded.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what happened? You told her daughter she needed to come home from school having learned three cool things about Bethany, which meant she had to spend some time with her, to ask some questions.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: She had to hustle. She only had an hour...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: ...Or two, maybe. I think she did it after school when - in the carpool line. And she jumped in the car and told me some things about her, and I said, that's fantastic. And they ended up being very close friends for many years, until that family moved away.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Why did you see in this interaction that your daughter clearly didn't want to be friends with this little girl? But she wasn't overtly cruel, right? But how did you recognize the seeds of bullying in this interaction?</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: Just from the stories that she told me how - about how hard this little girl was trying and that my daughter was so disinterested. I mean, it's very hard for me to imagine being that disinterested in somebody that's that interested in you. And I just felt like my daughter, Gracie, needed to push herself a little out of her comfort zone. And most of the feedback on this article has been extremely positive.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: I've had a few people say, I don't tell my children - force my children to be friends with people, but these very same people force their children to brush their teeth, force their children to eat green vegetables. I just think that if you're going to go to all that trouble to force your kids to do the things that you perceive to be healthy, then why wouldn't you think that you have the same wisdom with respect to your child's social development?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You were saying something about the nature of bullying, too, that it's not just bullying as we conceive it to be - writing mean things online about someone or physically abusing someone or calling them names, even. It can be far more subtle than that.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: Bullying, in my opinion, is not the star football player or the head cheerleader picking on some little nerd. It is the person right by you on the social ladder trying to keep you from taking their position. I mean, it's usually someone in their own friend group that they were either mistreating or that they were being mistreated by. It's very subtle. Parents are, you know, not really paying attention if they think it's these - you know, there's not these huge disparities. It's usually somebody not that different from you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Leslie Blanchard. She writes about her family on her blog. It's called "A Ginger Snapped." Leslie, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>LESLIE BLANCHARD: Thank you so much for letting me.

Gun control will likely be an important topic in the general election. On Saturday, Hillary Clinton spoke to mothers who have lost children to gun violence at an event in Florida.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: To politics now - Hillary Clinton is using her time on the campaign trail to draw a sharp contrast between herself and Donald Trump, especially on the issue of gun control. Last night in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., she spoke at a conference for moms who have lost children to gun violence. For the women at the event, this issue goes well beyond election-year politics. NPR's Sam Sanders was there. And he's not this story.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: It's call the Circle of Mothers Conference, a three-day retreat for women who have lost children to gun violence.</s>QUEEN BROWN: My name is Queen Esther Brown. And I am a mother of a murdered son.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Brown and dozens of other mothers attended seminars and an aerobics class and even two hours of what organizers called glam time.</s>QUEEN BROWN: We do a lot of hugging. We do a lot of crying. We do a lot of back rubbing. We connect with ourselves.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Brown lost her son, Eviton Elijah Brown, nine years ago. He had taken some time off from college to work and make enough money to buy his pregnant girlfriend a wedding ring.</s>QUEEN BROWN: So he got a job driving trucks. And he started his job. And he worked for two weeks when he got killed. He never got his first paycheck.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Brown was shot while riding in his cousin's car in Miami, Fla., by someone he didn't even know.</s>QUEEN BROWN: I know what the fatal bullet was. It was a bullet to his back. And it pierced his lung.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Brown says the shooter didn't obtain that gun legally. Saturday night, Hillary Clinton spoke before Brown and other mothers who had come from across the country.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: I come here tonight as a mother and a grandmother. I love my daughter and my granddaughter more than anything. And I worry about them like every mother does. I want them always to be safe.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Clinton has said she's in favor of stricter background checks and holding gun dealers and manufacturers liable for crimes committed with their weapons. Some liberals say she doesn't go far enough. But Clinton favors much more gun control than Donald Trump, the likely Republican nominee.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: Donald Trump said that in his very first hour as president, heaven forbid...</s>HILLARY CLINTON: ...He would overturn President Obama's actions to strengthen background checks. He said that, also, on his first day in office, he'd mandate that every school in America allow guns in classrooms.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Trump received the endorsement of the National Rifle Association this past week. Speaking in front of that group, he said the Second Amendment is under attack and on the ballot in November. Contrast that with Clinton who went after the NRA Saturday night.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: Unlike Donald Trump, I will not pander to the gun lobby.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: And we will not be silenced. And we will not be intimidated.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Clinton's speech was well-received in the room. But that's to be expected. She does well with women voters. On stage last night, Queen Brown said Clinton was the first presidential candidate to meet with mothers like her who'd lost children to guns.</s>QUEEN BROWN: We must support those that support us. We must support the people in this room that support you and your issues.</s>SAM SANDERS, BYLINE: Given other big issues like terrorism and immigration, it's not yet clear just how much gun control will resonate with voters this November. But mothers like Queen Brown are hoping it does. Sam Sanders, NPR News, Fort Lauderdale.

Under pressure from increasingly effective economic sanctions and a growing banking scandal, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad went before parliament to defend his government. His economics minister was nearly impeached. NPR foreign correspondent Mike Shuster explains Iran's internal power struggles.

NEAL CONAN, host: Divisions within the Iranian government continue to deepen. This week, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad struggled to defend his economics minister from impeachment. Earlier, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei suggested that Iran may not need a president at all. And this infighting comes amid admitted problems with sanctions and repercussions from the U.S. allegations of an Iranian plot to assassinate the Saudi ambassador to the U.S. in a Washington, D.C., restaurant.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: NPR foreign correspondent Mike Shuster happens to be in Washington today. We've asked him to join us here in Studio 3A. Nice to have you with us, Mike.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Hi. Thanks, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And a power struggle between President Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader Khamenei seems a one-sided dispute.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Well, one sided in the sense that they're both factions of the conservative trend in politics in Iran. But it's two power centers, the two primary constitutional power centers that the Islamic Republic of Iran has had since it came into being in 1979. And usually, the supreme leader and the president work well together. They have over the years. But it's gotten particularly difficult now. And I think this is actually very interesting that this happened within the last year and really intensifying now because this is the period after the disputed presidential election in 2009 when the supreme leader supported Ahmadinejad.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: And then, Ahmadinejad repaid him later by basically trying to take some of his power away, and more and more overtly, the supreme leader is trying to hem in and constrain Ahmadinejad. And this – there are also two camps on the conservative side, and they get at one another through surrogates as well.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Interesting. I think it broke into the open when President Ahmadinejad tried to fire his intelligence chief, and that person was then reinstalled by the supreme leader.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: And Ahmadinejad fired him more than once. This was earlier this year. There was a lot of suspicion that this was an intelligence minister who had a lot of dirt on both characters, but it became a real struggle. And Ahmadinejad lost that one, and then he went into a sulk. And for 10 days, he didn't go to work. He didn't hold Cabinet meetings. This was well reported on in the press in Iran and ultimately didn't do him much good that he's seemed like a sulker. But this is all part of the fascinating story of this power struggle. It's been emerging step by step this year.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Now, dozens of people, allies of President Ahmadinejad, have been arrested in a banking scandal. This plays into the attempt to impeach the finance minister.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: This just became known a couple weeks ago. It is believed that some bankers essentially embezzled $2.6 billion, Neal, from some of the major banks in Iran simply by writing false letters of credit. And this suggests that there was a fairly large conspiracy of bankers that allowed a few to bilk the treasury of Iran. And as a result, the parliament called the minister of the economy before it yesterday, and they tried to impeach him. He's Ahmadinejad's man, and they tried to remove him from office. They almost did but didn't. It required Ahmadinejad to show up himself...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In person.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: That's right. And he defended the economics minister, but at the same time, he let something dropped that he hadn't before. All along for many years, Iranian leaders have said that economic sanctions imposed by both the U.N. and the United States haven't had any impact on life in Iran. But Ahmadinejad contradicted that yesterday and said in fact that the current set of sanctions, which have become harsher and harsher, have made it impossible for Iranian banks to carry out certain transactions, international transactions. And this was an indication that in fact these sanctions are doing what they have been - they were conceived to do.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In the end, he was bailed out by one of his opponents, Ali Larijani.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Yeah. Well, it seemed that there weren't enough votes to move toward a formal interrogation of the president, which has never taken place in the history of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and that could have led to impeachment. But this isn't over. There had been threats by the parliament to impeach him before. They've also gotten at some of his surrogates, and I fully expect this to come back again and again.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And what about the suggestion to rewrite the constitution to eliminate the office of the president?</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Well, this could be done. This is something that the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei mentioned in a talk he gave recently, and it was couched in soft terms and all. In the 1980s, most of '80s, there wasn't a president in Iran. There was a prime minister system. And ultimately, Ali Khamenei became president, and they changed the system, and then he became the Supreme Leader. But it was clearly seen - his comment was clearly seen at a stab at Ahmadinejad, and this is something that I think is being talked about now more openly in Iran.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we're talking about the sanctions - admission, rare candor...</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Yeah.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...from the Iranian president that these are biting...</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Mm-hmm.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...sanctions largely as a result of Iran's pursuit - what everybody believes - of nuclear weapons.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: That's right. The - there had been four sets of sanctions imposed by the U.N. Security Council over the last four or five years that had to do with - that steamed directly from Iran's controversial nuclear program and the inability of the International Atomic Energy Agency and its monitors and inspectors to determine what precisely the Iranians are doing. The Iranians, of course, claim that they are not pursuing a bomb. They are pursuing nuclear energy. And there are plenty of monitors and inspectors on the ground, but still, they IAEA is not happy with the explanation that they get from the Iranians. And they're so - they were - that set of U.N. sanctions - and the United States has always pursued much tougher sanctions, particularly in the last few years on the banking side. And that appears now to be what's really hurting Iran.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And the United States is also putting pressure, we read, on the IAEA to issue a statement that would be much more declarative about what it believes Iran is up to.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Yeah. There's been a lot of un-source reporting on this in the last week or two. And there's a - the IAEA is due for another quarterly report on Iran's nuclear activities. And there have been those who said that they're holding back much more definitive evidence that Iran's program is a militarized program. There are others, like China and Russia, who don't believe that. There's a struggle going on within the U.N. and within the IAEA behind the scenes over just how tough and just how real the intelligence is, that the IAEA may have held back until now. And we should know much more about this next week.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And - all right. Now, we're wandering off into much murkier areas. Stuxnet. This is a virus that has attacked Iran's control systems for many of the centrifuges that uses to enrich uranium. Enrich it either, if you believe the Iranians, so it will be available to produce nuclear energy. Or if you believe Iran's many skeptics, that it's going to be enriched so that it could be use as a nuclear explosive. Stuxnet device believed to have originated in the United States and done with Israeli's help as well.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Yes, believed to have been the work - the cooperative work of both the Israeli and the American intelligence world. And this seems to have been a really effective cyber attack on Iran's, gas centrifuges that produce highly-enriched uranium. This started in 2009. It worked its way through the cyberspace to Iran in 2010, and it apparently took down some 1,000 of these centrifuges. The Iranians have something on the order of 8,000 centrifuges at Natanz, and they're building more at another place closer to another city, Qom. And - but the Iranians, when news of this broke, tried to play it down. They claimed that this wasn't as significant attack as it was being made out in the West. But there are reports and analyses that suggest that, actually, it was far worse for the Iranians than initially thought.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: And it's believed that something is else happening. That there are either Stuxnet 2.0 that's been let lose, or that the original 1.0 has - had the ability to sort of transform itself, lurk in Iran and actually other nations, watch the computers, gather intelligence and then, perhaps, come back with a vengeance later on. There's a lot of uncertainty right now about this. And I think we'll probably hear much more about another cyber destabilization effort sometime soon.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And if you missed it, Tom Gjelten on MORNING EDITION today about the possibilities of blowback, that having unleashed a cyber warfare effectively, the United States may reap the whirlwind someday, but...</s>MIKE SHUSTER: It certainly could be. And, in fact, the Iranians claim that they're just as good at computers and cybers - cyber warfare as the United States, so the United States needs to be on alert. But the Iranians brag about a lot of things that - and often, their boasts do not turn out to be as accurate as they would want you to believe.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The Iranians also say their nuclear program has been hindered to some degree by an assassination program, scientists murdered, it says, by Israel.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Well, yes. There have been two or three, depending upon the back story for all these characters in the last year and a half or so, that have been assassinated in the streets of Tehran. They may or may not all have been part of the nuclear program, but it certainly has rattled the Iranian authorities and the Iranian intelligence world. They have not been able to fully explain this. The normal reaction is to blame Israel for doing this. There are some suspicions that at least one of these characters was - may have been murdered by Iranian intelligence themselves because, although a nuclear engineer, it's been said, it's also been asserted that he was supportive of the opposition movement in Iran. And maybe the Iranians themselves decided to take him out. That's why, as you said in your last question, it's a very murky world.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with NPR foreign correspondent, Mike Shuster, who spends a lot of his time reading murky issues about Iran. He's here with us in Washington, D.C. on temporary assignment. You're listening TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And speaking of murky issues, there is the allegation by the United States of America, by the president of the United States, by the head of the FBI, by the Attorney General - no less, that Iran hired or attempted to hire, through a proxy, a used car dealer in Texas, attempted to hire a Mexican cartel - drug cartel to assassinate Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States in a Washington, D.C. restaurant and didn't much care if 50 or 75 people died with him.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Well, that's exactly right. That's the story that's come from the U.S. government in indictments against two individuals that are alleged to have worked out this plot, conspired to kill the Saudi ambassador to the United States, Adel al-Jubeir, in public, possibly killing Americans or even members of Congress in the process. It's an extraordinary story, and it generated - this is - it's very interesting. It generated enormous skepticism on the part of the Iran analyst community, internationally and in the United States. Most did not believe that this was possible, that something as bizarre, irresponsible and incomprehensible would actually happen. How would this benefit Iran, many people questioned. I think all the questions about this alleged plot are very interesting.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: But one thing that, I think, people have failed to do is ask, why would Adel al-Jubeir, the Saudi ambassador be the target? And this is what's interesting to me. In the WikiLeak documents, in the document that cabled from the U.S. embassy in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, to the State Department a couple of years ago, there is a conversation noted between the U.S. charge d'affaires and Ambassador al-Jubeir in which he essentially tells the Americans that the king of Saudi Arabia would like to see the United States attack Iran and cut off the head of the snake. Those are the actually words that Adel al-Jubeir used. And at least, that, it seems to me, is one bit of evidence that might suggests why al-Jubeir was - may have been a target for something that could have been a real conspiracy.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Not a member of the royal family, but a very close advisor to the king.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: The king, exactly.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And a very influential figure. Obviously, as ambassador to the United States, they are not small figures. But as you look at this, a lot of people also say it doesn't make any sense. The Quds Force, which reports directly to the supreme leader, to Khamenei, not to Ahmadinejad...</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Mm-hmm.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...is not there some possibility of a rogue element trying to discredit, that this is part of the infighting?</s>MIKE SHUSTER: That could happen. I mean, those kind of scenarios are plausible. It's plausible that the supreme leader might have known about this. It's plausible that there were rogue elements. It's plausible that even the guy in Texas initiated this. But there's just not enough evidence out there to make a really good judgment about this at this point. But I think we're going to hear more also about this story.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: There's a second man indicted. He has not been taken into custody in the United States. He is believed to - the Justice Department asserts that he's in Iran. The Iranians say, no. He's - there is no such person here. And that was their initial response. The second response is, oh, by the way, he's part - he's a member of the Mujahedin-e Khalq, which is an enemy to the government in Iran.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Based in Iraq, yes.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Yeah, based in Iraq. So it's - I mean, the stories are extraordinary. Trying to follow this and make sense of it is challenging, to say the least for journalist, but fascinating, I think.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If the story is wrong, the United States has, again, made an enormous allegation about a foreign power with which it is regarded as an enemy, not at war, but regarded as an enemy, and would have been wrong, we'd have disastrous consequences. If the story is right, that suggests that Iran is willing to carry out what, a lot of people says, is an act of war in the United States.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: If the story is right, I think that's - and if actually took place, it would be an act of war. I think it would be impossible for any U.S. president to resist a military retaliatory strike of some kind because Americans would be killed.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And then a lot of people who said about Iran's nuclear weapons program, they are going to do this. This is in their interest. We can see this. But Iran is not an irrational power. You don't have to bomb them because they're not necessarily going to use this in an irrational way. If they're capable of an irrational act like an attempt to blow up the Saudi ambassador in a Washington, D.C., restaurant, everything is on the table.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: I think that that's one line of thought that is logical and makes sense. But the biggest illogical elements to all this, for me, is that Iran would - if the United States had to respond militarily and war broke out between Iran and the United States, it would certainly hurt Iran deeply. It - no one believes that in war with the United States, Iran would come out the winner. So it's puzzling why they would conceive of such a plan and bring war down on their heads when that's not really in their interest. That's a real puzzle part - part of a puzzle here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We'll follow this closely as more information becomes available. Mike Shuster, thanks very much.</s>MIKE SHUSTER: Sure.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: NPR foreign correspondent, Mike Shuster, joined us here in Studio 3A. Tomorrow, we'll talk with two people about innovative ways to keep low-level offenders out of jail. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

Voters in Ohio go to the polls Tuesday to decide, among other issues, whether to keep the controversial law that stripped public unions of much of their collective bargaining powers. Senate Bill 5 sparked large-scale protests at the statehouse in Columbus and inspired similar bills in other states. Ken Rudin, writes Political Junkie column for NPR.org Mike Thompson, news director, WOSU

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Herman Cain's past raises questions about his future. We can't wait auditions as the next yes we can. And Rick Perry takes himself off-base. It's Wednesday and time for a...</s>GOVERNOR RICK PERRY: Bring it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Edition of the Political Junkie.</s>PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: There you go again.</s>VICE PRESIDENT WALTER MONDALE: When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad: Where's the beef?</s>SENATOR BARRY GOLDWATER: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.</s>SENATOR LLOYD BENTSEN: Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.</s>PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON: You don't have Nixon to kick around anymore.</s>SARAH PALIN: Lipstick.</s>PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: But I'm the decider.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Every Wednesday, political junkie Ken Rudin joins us to recap the week in politics. This week, voters in Colorado reject taxes left and right. New polls put Herman Cain in front in Iowa and in Texas, but past allegations of harassment arise. Mitt flips on climate change, and the president tests out a new slogan.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In a few minutes, next week's elections in Mississippi, Kentucky and in Ohio. We'll talk with Mike Thompson from member station WOSU about a ballot measure that could overturn a controversial public unions bill.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Later in the program, NPR foreign correspondent Mike Shuster about the power struggle inside Iran. But first, political junkie Ken Rudin joins us here in Studio 3A. As usual, we begin with a trivia question. Hey, Ken.</s>KEN RUDIN: Hi, Neal. Well, you know, the Texas Rangers of course lost the World Series this year, and they lost last year, as well. They lost back-to-back World Series, which leads to...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK.</s>KEN RUDIN: OK. Well, the Texas Rangers, as you know, used to be the Washington Senators.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The second Senators.</s>KEN RUDIN: That's right, and therefore, which current U.S. Senator lost back-to-back elections in the same year?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If you think you know the answer to this week's trivia question - which sitting U.S. senator lost back-to-back elections in the same year - give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. And of course the winner gets a fabulous Political Junkie no-prize T-shirt. And Ken, as usual, when we can, we begin with actual votes this week in Colorado.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, of course, election day is next Tuesday, but yesterday in Colorado, there was - it's been years of budget cuts, drastic budget cuts on education. The state legislature cut $200 million just this week, just this year, from education. So there's a thing on the ballot that would raise $2.9 billion for public schools and colleges. Basically, it would raise taxes, increase the sales tax from 2.9 percent to 3 percent, increase - anyway, it failed. It failed overwhelmingly on the Colorado ballot.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this is interesting especially in Denver.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, it is because, you know, first of all, education is a very important thing. This is supposed to be a liberal thought about taxes in a place like that. But this was statewide, and Republicans and conservatives are heralding this as basically a feeling that we've been taxed enough. And that, of course, is the Republican theme for 2012.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, moving ahead to the election that comes on January 3rd - not election of course - but a caucus in Iowa. The Des Moines Register poll put Herman Cain in the lead; Romney, though, a very close second.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, what's interesting about those numbers - yes, I mean, they're basically tied. It's Cain 23, Romney 22; so obviously within the margin of error. But neither candidate has been in Iowa that much lately. Cain hasn't been - I think he's been there once since the middle of August.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: An event last night, both skipped it.</s>KEN RUDIN: Exactly, and there was the Ronald Reagan dinner, and they both skipped it, for different reasons, of course. So, you know, you always wonder if - whether the people in Iowa might be, you know, kind of like put off by the fact that these guys are ignoring the state.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, of course, they're not ignoring the state. Mitt Romney, of course, needs to know how serious he wants to contest it, whether a loss could be not damaging for a likely win in the following week in New Hampshire, which by the way named its date today. It'll be January 10th.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: January 10th, yes indeed.</s>KEN RUDIN: So that's the top of the field in New Hampshire, in Iowa.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And everybody else, eh, pretty far back. And meanwhile, the University of Texas-Texas Tribune poll puts Cain in the lead in Rick Perry's home state.</s>KEN RUDIN: Right, and of course Texas is, it's a March 6th primary date. So I mean, none - there's also another poll out, came out today, or this week, Quinnipiac poll, that had Herman Cain 30, Mitt Romney 23, Newt Gingrich 10, Rick Perry 8, Ron Paul and the others behind. But first of all, these national polls, you should ignore because there is no national Republican primary. It is really - the name of the game is Iowa, and whatever happens in Iowa will obviously affect the subsequent primaries certainly in New Hampshire a week later.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And the news of the week regarding the, well, front-runner in both Texas and in Iowa, Herman Cain, is that he's been confronted for the last three days by a story that first ran in Politico, that back when he was the head of the restaurant association, the lobby here in Washington, D.C., that there were two female employees who signed - who left amid charges, allegations of sexual harassment.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, you know, when Herman Cain announced for president, he always said he had hands-on experience. No, I'm sorry. I would never make fun of a charge like that, but I couldn't help it. I just couldn't help it.</s>KEN RUDIN: But anyway, we don't know what this means for Herman Cain's campaign. We don't know if there's more to it. Right now, all we're hearing is Herman Cain's argument because the other women, the alleged two other women, have signed...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nondisclosure...</s>KEN RUDIN: Nondisclosure clauses with the National Restaurant Association. Who knew that the NRA would backfire on the Republican Party?</s>KEN RUDIN: But so we don't know exactly what's going to happen with that yet, but something may happen. And again, Cain says - denies it, you know, denies anything untoward ever happened, and we'll just have to see.</s>KEN RUDIN: We did see - look, you know, Bill Clinton was hit with the same allegations - not the same allegations, but...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Same kind of...</s>KEN RUDIN: Same kind of allegations 1991 and 1992, and I remember all of us thinking at the time that he was finished politically, and of course he was not. So we'll see what happens here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: One of the aspects of this story that is perpetuating it is the fact that Herman Cain has not been able to get his story straight. Much anticipated visit to Washington, instead of talking politics, he spent Monday afternoon at the National Press Club denying any settlements were arrived at in sexual harassment allegations.</s>HERMAN CAIN: I am unaware of any sort of settlement. I hope it wasn't for much because I didn't do anything.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Just a few hours later, he told Fox News' Greta Van Susteren maybe things had changed.</s>HERMAN CAIN: Yes, there was some sort of settlement or termination, and I don't even know what the contents of that was.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Now, he says there was confusion over the terminology used, and nevertheless, what we now have is the lawyer for one of these two women approaching the National Restaurant Association, saying we would like her to be released from her nondisclosure agreement so she could tell her side of the story. Herman Cain is out saying nothing happened; she would like to tell her side.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, you know, you just summed it up perfectly. That's exactly where the situation stands right now. A lot of Republicans are sitting back not knowing where to turn. And of course there's a lot of references. Some of the conservatives saying this is all about race.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: High-tech lynching has been mentioned.</s>KEN RUDIN: As we reference to Clarence Thomas 1991 hearings. And of course, you know, conservatives were saying race had nothing to do with the opposition to Barack Obama, but why does it suddenly have something to do with the attacks on Herman Cain? So there's a lot of interesting angles here that everybody's playing. But you just wonder if one of the Republicans, one of his fellow Republicans, Herman Cain's fellow Republicans, may have leaked this story or at least unearthed this story because obviously Herman Cain has taken out the oxygen from a lot of these other candidates.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, we have some people on the line who think they know the answer to this week's trivia question. And that is, again, the sitting senator to lose two elections back to back in the same year. Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. And we will start with - this is Jason and Jason with us from Lansing in Michigan.</s>JASON: Diane Feinstein?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Diane Feinstein, the senator from California.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, Diane Feinstein, actually before she was elected to the Senate, she lost two races for mayor of San Francisco, and she was defeated in the 1990 race for governor of California to Pete Wilson, but she did not lose two back to back the same year.</s>JASON: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Thanks, Jason. Let's see if we can go next to Howard, Howard with us from Cleveland.</s>HOWARD: Yes, it is Joe Lieberman?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Joe Lieberman the now-independent from Connecticut?</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, the only two races he lost, he lost a race in 1980 for Congress, and then he was elected state attorney general. And then of course he was defeated for re-nomination in 2006 to a Senate seat, which he later won as an independent. But again, no back-to-back losses, certainly not in the same year.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Thanks very much. Let's go next to Diana, Diana with us from Charlotte.</s>DIANA: Hey, is it Lamar Alexander?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Lamar Alexander, famous for the flannel shirt, from Tennessee.</s>KEN RUDIN: And he did lose a race for governor in 1974. Of course lost two bids for the presidential nomination; again, not the same year.</s>DIANA: OK.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Diana, thanks very much. Come on, people, there's 97 chances left. 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. In the meantime, let's see if we can go next to - this is Mitt Romney, the other front-runner, along with Herman Cain, in a lot of these early primary states. And Mitt Romney, well, critics have been attacking him for this line he wrote in his book.</s>MITT ROMNEY: I believe that climate change is occurring. The reduction in the size of global ice caps is hard to ignore. I also believe that human activity is a contributing factor.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And then this week, in an appearance in Pittsburgh, at an arena named after the biggest coal company in the area, this is what he had to say.</s>MITT ROMNEY: My view is that we don't know what's causing climate change on this planet.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Mitt Romney.</s>KEN RUDIN: See, this is the big problem with Mitt Romney. I know there are a lot of Conservatives who said he's just not a true Conservative, not a true believer. But the thing that he's most vulnerable on - and the Obama White House has picked this up from the beginning - is that he does have a history of, to put it mildly, flip-flopping.</s>KEN RUDIN: He was pro-choice when he ran for governor of Massachusetts in 2002, when he ran against Ted Kennedy for the Senate in '94. And as his presidential aspirations became better known, he became more of a social Conservative. And so the charge of being flip-flop, not being true to his ideals, that's the thing that's really bugging people about Mitt Romney.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we've been talking a lot about redistricting in Arizona last night, something of a coup. And...</s>KEN RUDIN: Independent.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: An independent who is named the head of the redistricting commission; two Democrats, two Republicans, they elected an independent, removed by the state Senate and the governor.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, you know, the idea of an independent redistricting commission was to take politics out of the redistricting system. And yet Jan Brewer, the Republican governor, and the majority of the state Senate, which is overwhelmingly Republican, felt that this independent head of the commission, the redistricting commission, was consorting with Democrats.</s>KEN RUDIN: They hired somebody with a Democratic firm to work on these maps and something, and they thought that was gross misconduct, and that gave them the reason to get rid of that person.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Does that mean the lines change?</s>KEN RUDIN: The lines, well, the lines, they're still working on them, and of course the commission itself appealed to the state Supreme Court to reinstate that person.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get some more answers on the line of people who think they know the answer to this week's trivia question. Let's go to Charlie, Charlie with us from Sausalito in California. Charlie, are you there?</s>CHARLIE: Yeah, how are you?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Good, thanks. What's your guess?</s>CHARLIE: I'm taking a shot at this because I gave some thought to it - how about 1990, gubernatorial nomination in Florida, Bill Nelson, and then he lost his congressional seat.</s>KEN RUDIN: No, actually, no he gave up his congressional seat to run for governor in 1990, and as you point out, he did lose to Lawton Chiles...</s>CHARLIE: Yeah, I know he lost to Lawton.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Lock'n Lawton.</s>CHARLIE: All right, I thought he gave it up or he - nah. That was my shot on that because I had...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Good try, Charlie. Let's see if we can go...</s>KEN RUDIN: Charlie had that T-shirt all over him.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: He did. Yeah, JJ's on the line from Las Vegas.</s>JJ: Hi.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Got to go quick, JJ.</s>JJ: Harry Reid lost the senatorial race to Paul Laxalt, and I think the next year he lost the race for mayor.</s>KEN RUDIN: No, no. The answer is: Debbie Stabenow defeated in Democratic governor primary in Michigan 1994 and then lost as a lieutenant governor nominee the same year.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: JJ, thanks for the call. We'll have more with the political junkie as we focus on next week's elections. And of course we'll get the name of the ScuttleButton Puzzle winner, as well. Stay with us. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. It's Political Junkie day. Ken Rudin is here as usual. You can find his latest column and that infamous ScuttleButton Puzzle at npr.org/junkie. No trivia T-shirt winner this week, Ken Rudin, but is there a ScuttleButton winner?</s>KEN RUDIN: There is absolutely, and the winner is Bob LeBunne(ph) of New York City, Or Manhattan, as we like to call it. And the reason he got it because there was a cows button, there was a Omar Moreno baseball card, there was a Kuh for district attorney, and there was a Daffy Duck button. So if you add the cows, the Omar Moreno, the Kuh and Daffy Duck, you have Moo-omar Ka-Daffy.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: That was the recycled ScuttleButton Puzzle.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, yes, but this is the first time there was a T-shirt that went along with it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Oh, a T-shirt at stake. So anyway, he will get the fabulous political junkie no-prize T-shirt. It's the 2012 election that drives the headlines, but we have plenty of important votes this year to talk about. Election day comes Tuesday in many places, mayoral elections in Philadelphia, San Francisco, Charlotte and other cities; gubernatorial races, as well, in Kentucky and in Mississippi, where voters will also decide on the definition of personhood.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ohio voters will decide whether to keep or scrap a controversial bill that limits the rights of public unions in that state, more about that in a moment. If the polls in your area are open next week, what's at stake there? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Mike Thompson joins us now, news director at member station WOSU in Columbus. Nice to have you back with us.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Great to be here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Issue Number 2, Ballot Issue Number 2, that's the big issue there in Ohio this week.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Yes, it is. After really a campaign that began last February, when the lawmakers passed a sweeping overhaul of the state's collective bargaining law, which severely limits the collective bargaining power of public employee unions, Tuesday is the day where it finally gets decided.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We saw a huge reaction when similar laws were passed in Wisconsin. There were attempts to recall some of the state legislators that were involved on both sides of that contretemps. You remember the members of the state Senate decamping across the border to avoid having to take a vote for a while. One big difference in Wisconsin: The law does not cover police and firefighters. In Ohio, it does.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Yes, it covers all public employee unions, including police and fire. And, you know, the second-guessing is starting to begin because the polls show that the repeal effort, the no on Issue 2 to get rid of these limits pulling away and winning by 25 points now in the latest public poll.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: The second-guessing is beginning, and one of the things that folks are second-guessing Republicans on is why did you include police officers and firefighters in this bill because...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: What's their answer? We know it's not been politically advantageous, but what's their answer?</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Well, the whole public reason for this bill has been to give cities and towns, and state governments, the tools they need to cut costs. And if you're going to cut costs - if public employee unions are driving up costs, it would seem disingenuous to eliminate two public employee unions, which are pretty sizable throughout city and town budgets. So they were consistent in that regard.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: If this was about cutting costs, they included all public employees.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But they may pay the price. Initially when the recall, the referendum on the bill was announced, it looked like it was ahead, that it might pass. What changed it?</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Well, $30 million on the part of the opponents. They've raise $31 million to defeat this. So that's one number to remember. They have run a lot of TV ads basically saying that if this bill is not repealed, if this law is not repealed, that their firefighters won't be able to do their job.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: You see burning houses. You see firefighters, and everyone loves firefighters, and that's one reason why the polls - the gap has widened. The other one is another math problem. There are 360,000 public employee union members in Ohio. They collected one million signatures to put this on the ballot.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Two years ago, there was a casino issue on the ballot, in an off-year election. It took 1.7 million votes to pass that. So you could say the unions already had, because of their organization, a one-million-vote head start, and ultimately that has been a big hurdle for the supporters of these limits to overcome.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And you talked about the amount of money that's gone in for ads to the – for the no vote. What about on the other side? Has that been well-funded, too?</s>MIKE THOMPSON: No, well, well-funded being - I mean, they've raised $8 million, which is a good deal amount of money, but it's only about a quarter of what the opponents of the collective bargaining limits have raised. It really is a record campaign as far as what is being spent on this issue.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: I mean, the entire governor's race for last year, very hard-fought governor's race raised $38 million. The opponents to these limits have already raised $31 million.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ken?</s>KEN RUDIN: Mike, last year's elections in Ohio, John Kasich elected governor, the Republicans win the Senate seat, they pick up seats in Congress. Democrats were defeated. Their heads were down. Organized labor was seen as irrelevant. This obviously gives the Democrats and labor a big boost should they defeat Issue 2 on Tuesday, what do you think it portends for 2012?</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Well, I think they've awakened the unions. I mean, really what's surprising, I think even to the most veteran statehouse reporters and observers, how strong the unions came out because there were kind of - many union folks were on the sidelines last year. Ted Strickland didn't garner the enthusiasm among the Democratic base and the union base that perhaps he could have, and that might have helped him win last year.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Those folks are awake now, $30 million awake. Granted, some of that money has come from out of state, but those folks, their organization has really awakened, and it could have a spillover effect to next year.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And next year there's an awful lot at stake in the state of Ohio.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Yeah, obviously the presidential race, I don't know what - I mean, Ken would know better than me. No president I believe since, I don't know, Jack Kennedy, has won the presidency without winning Ohio.</s>KEN RUDIN: No Republican has won it without Ohio, right.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Yeah, so Ohio is key, even though you only have 18 electoral votes now. It's one of those half-a-dozen swing states, and the president needs to win Ohio if he's going to win re-election, and the Democrats need to be mobilized again next year to help him do that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can get a caller on the line, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. What's at stake in the elections next week where you live? And we'll start with Tom(ph), and Tom's calling us from Cleveland.</s>TOM: Thanks for taking my call. My name's Tom. I am a firefighter in the greater Cleveland area. I'd say that I've always been very conservative in my politics. I find a lot of my brothers, both as firefighters and police officers, are very conservative in their politics. But this has just really left a bad taste in our mouth for the Republican Party, the amount of lies that have been told about, you know, how much we do or do not contribute in our pensions, whether or not we get free health care from our cities. It's just been a pack of lies.</s>TOM: I'll tell you my next door neighbor believes the governor over me. I show my paycheck. I show my pay stubs, he still doesn't believe it. Even in our own family, we have division of family members who are voting for Issue 2, and then they don't believe in what we have to say.</s>TOM: And I come from a family of firefighters and police officers. It's become a very divisive issue in our house, where we go to parties or holidays right now, and we're not even allowed to discuss Issue 2. So...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, much like the rest of the country, politics is not usually a popular issue at the dinner table or at parties. But Tom, do you think the people who have been, as you say, left a bad taste in their mouths, is that bad taste going to continue for another year?</s>TOM: I don't know. As you know, the political climate and the temperament changes very rapidly, especially in a state like Ohio.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Mike Thompson, you may want to hire Tom as your political analyst. I think he got that right.</s>TOM: Thanks for taking my comments.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Oh, sure.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Tom is not alone. I think John Kasich, who won the governor's race just a year ago, his approval rating is down to 36 percent, and I think a lot of that, those weak numbers come from the fact that he had to cut a lot to balance the state budget.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: But also a lot of police officers and firefighters, who may have been like Tom, a little more conservative, even Republican voters, see what's happened with this collective bargaining bill, and John Kasich has been one of the faces of it. They're taking it out on him when the pollsters call.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, thanks very much, Mike Thompson, pleasure to have you on as always.</s>MIKE THOMPSON: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: WOSU news director Mike Thompson joined us from the station there in Columbus. And Ken Rudin, those are not the only elections underway. As we mentioned, two state houses.</s>KEN RUDIN: Right, you have two governorships, in Kentucky. Now, President Obama is very unpopular in Kentucky, but for some reason - not for some reason, for many reasons, the state continues to elect Democrats as governor. They've only elected one Republican since 1967.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Anyway, Steve Beshear, a heavy favorite for re-election. Also in Mississippi, more and more a Republican state, that's a state that Haley Barbour is term-limited. Lieutenant Governor Phil Bryant is a likely winner. The Democratic candidate, though, is Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree, the first African-American major-party candidate for governor in that state. So a little history there, but it doesn't look like DuPree wins.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There's another issue, though, on the ballot in Mississippi that's of interest nationwide, and that is the personhood amendment.</s>KEN RUDIN: This - well, this is - yeah, this is pretty - I mean, it's pretty out there. It would give fertilization human eggs legal status. Basically, embryos would be considered human beings. They would be considered people. And so, basically, the law itself would not only wipe out abortion, but it may wipe out birth control as well because it just depends on the timing and everything.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And it would define life as beginning at the moment of conception...</s>KEN RUDIN: Exactly.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...and then you get into a lot of arguments about various birth control devices.</s>KEN RUDIN: Now - and there are other states who were also looking at that personhood amendment, and that's the new thing in the anti-abortion movement.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And then, a lot of big city mayors are up for re-election or election.</s>KEN RUDIN: Right. Not too many big contests. For example, in Philadelphia, Mayor Nutter is assured of a second term. Re-election likely in Baltimore for the mayor there, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake. But some interesting things. In San Francisco, Edwin Lee, he was appointed mayor after - he became mayor after Gavin Newsom was elected lieutenant governor. He's the first - the city's first Asian-American mayor, but he's some under ethics questions about voter fraud.</s>KEN RUDIN: Some groups aligned with him are accused of things, so there's a lot of controversy out there, too. And also, it's interesting in Charlotte, North Carolina, Mayor Anthony Foxx, who's African-American, working very closely with the Obama campaign in the city where the Democrats will hold their convention, has a huge fundraising lead over his Republican opponent.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And just one slight correction in Baltimore, the mayor would be elected for the first time in her own right. She was succeeded to the office after her predecessor was...</s>KEN RUDIN: Sheila Dixon, right.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: ...kicked out because of an ethics violation.</s>KEN RUDIN: Embezzlement, right.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Embezzlement charges. As we look ahead to these elections, other than Ohio, is there anyway to read anything into what's going to happen in 2012?</s>KEN RUDIN: No. It never is - I mean, we always talk about - look, the 2009 election in upstate New York, the famous Dede Scozzafava race, where the Democrats won a historic Republican seat. And everybody said this is great news for the Democrats. And in 2010, the Republicans just wiped the floor with the Democrats in congressional races. You know, there's a little blip here. It might be something interesting, but as far as a message for 2012, I think the most interesting thing may very well be what's going on in Ohio with Issue 2 and whether that re-vitalizer excites the Democratic and labor base.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Political junkie Ken Rudin with us here as he is every Wednesday with The Political Junkie. Again, you can go to Politico at npr.org/junkie, read his column and solve that ScuttleButton puzzle, if you can. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And let's get a caller on the line. This is Adam. Adam with us from Roanoke, in Virginia.</s>ADAM: Hello. How are you doing?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Good. Thanks.</s>ADAM: Yeah. I enjoyed you guys when you were in Roanoke a few years ago. I got to go to that. So don't forget about Virginia. You guys haven't mentioned us, and we're one of the test cases, in my opinion, of the Citizens United case. We're two Democratic senators away from having an all-Republican legislature and executive. And it feels like a presidential...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All Republican-controlled, yes.</s>ADAM: All Republican-controlled. It feels like a presidential campaign down here with the smear ads on these off-year campaigns on our senators. It's amazing. I've live here 30 years, never have seen the kind of money being dumped into an off-year local Senate election. It's amazing...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: The Citizens...</s>ADAM: ...and what's at stake for us is overturning a 30-year-old ban on uranium mining in Virginia and banning of abortion, basically, in the state. And it's going to be real interesting. They might actually win and lose at the same time and awake a lot of otherwise middle-of-the-road voters to their agenda.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Adam mentioned the Citizens United case. That was a Supreme Court decision that said outside groups can provide any amount of money that they would like to support one cause or another. Ken Rudin, Virginia's legislative elections, Barack Obama carried that state, people forget, three years ago. It doesn't look too promising.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, of course, after that, the Republicans swept everything from governor to attorney general and statewide stuff on down. And now - right now, the Democrats have a 22-to-18 lead in the state Senate. And with a Republican lieutenant governor, basically, the Republicans need a net gain of just two state Senate seats, and they will have complete control of the state government.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Adam, thanks very much for the call.</s>ADAM: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Email from Jeff(ph) in Maine. Here in Maine, we have a couple of referenda people's veto votes next week. We are one of a few states that deal with one of those Republican-led initiatives to disenfranchise Democratic-leading constituencies under the guise of preventing voter fraud - at least, that's this writer's characterization. The state Senate voted to repeal the right to same-day voter registration. Now, the voters have a people's veto initiative to vote on, do you want to reject the section of chapter 339 of the public laws of 2011 that requires new voters to register to vote at least two business days prior to an election.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Another question asked whether we want to move up redistricting after the 2013 effort from 2023 and every 10 years to 1021(ph) and every 10 years. I feel like this has to be a ploy by some groups, but I don't know why or by whom. But on that - on the voter fraud, this is a change that's happened in a lot of states since the last election, as various groups, mostly Republicans, have voted to clamp down on what they regard as voter fraud, an issue that a lot of experts say doesn't really exist.</s>KEN RUDIN: Well, at least not to the extent the Republicans make it an issue. The Republicans long said that the sanctity of the ballot box is very important. The Democrats said that by clamping down on these restrictions, you're denying the basic right to vote for countless number of Americans, and that's unconstitutional. That fight has been going on for decades.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: One last caller. This is Jeff(ph), and Jeff is calling us from Mishawaka, in Indiana.</s>JEFF: Hi. Yes. Mishawaka, for what it's worth.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK. And what's on the ballot there?</s>JEFF: Well, we just have a local mayoral election going on, and it's just a relatively small town, about 50,000 people. And what's interesting is the impact of the national issues, such as unemployment and job creation, on a small local election like this. Now, we're getting a lot of negative ads saying that the challenger in the mayoral race is saying that the unemployment rate of 9.8 percent is so strong and terrible here compared to the national rate of 9.1 percent, and there are 2,500 people out of work.</s>JEFF: And, you know, it's just - it's interesting the spillover of the national issues, like that in sort of a local election when there's obviously a national employment problem and crisis going on.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And that's a manufacturing area, and manufacturing has been in some places pretty good but in other places hard hit. Ken?</s>KEN RUDIN: And a lot of these races are really, really nasty. There's a race for mayor of Phoenix that gay rights has become an issue. It's been the whipping boy in that race. There's not - there's no two - you can't be too small or can't be too small of a race for the nastiness and the amount of money that's been pouring into these races.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And a lot of people anticipating a particularly nasty race next November. We'll be talking about that over the next year with political junkie Ken Rudin, who joins us every Wednesday here in Studio 3A. Ken, see you next week.</s>KEN RUDIN: Thanks, Neal.

Earth's population crossed the 7 billion mark Monday. The growing population has been the subject of doomsday scenarios, but Colum Lynch worries that the U.S. and other wealthy countries will soon have too few citizens. He predicts the world population will decline by the end of this century. Read Colum Lynch's piece for Foreign Policy, "It's a Small World."

NEAL CONAN, host: And now, the Opinion Page. The planet's human population hit seven billion today, according to a United Nations estimate. The growth of the world's population has been the subject of doomsday scenarios, at least as far back as Thomas Malthus in the late 18th century. But as Colum Lynch argues in Foreign Policy, predicting population growth or contraction is pretty much a loser's game. You can go with the high-end projection of 27 billion, or an estimate of a smaller-world population some time next century. Lynch says that thinking about the implications of a world with fewer people is just as important as worrying about how many more the planet can handle.</s>So tell us: What does seven billion mean to you? 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Colum Lynch is United Nations reporter for the Washington Post and the author of the Turtle Bay blog at foreignpolicy.com, where his piece "It's a Small World" ran recently. Colum Lynch joins us now from our bureau in New York. Nice to have you with us today.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Thanks for having me, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And what don't we know about that seven-billion figure?</s>COLUM LYNCH: Well, we don't know that it's happening today. We don't know whether it's happened yesterday, or a couple of days ago. I mean, it's generally an estimate. I mean, it's better than the projections that thinking about whether there will be eight billion in 2025. But a lot of this stuff is projections on the basis of assumptions, and, you know, like most assumptions, nobody really knows whether they'll turn out to be true or not. I gather they probably - as your earlier guest said - probably picked today, Halloween...</s>COLUM LYNCH: ...to decide on this, to scare the pants off of everybody about the fear of massive population growth.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, they're talking about 10 billion by the end of this century. Seven billion, scary already.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Seven billion, that's scary already. Ten billion is even tougher to deal with. I thought I would - I mean, what I find the most extraordinary is that if the current rate of population growth, which is about 79 million people a day added into the human population continued occurrence rate, you'd get up to the 27 billion number, which is pretty spooky. Most of the experts on this don't think that there's much likelihood that that's happening. You've already seen a pretty steady and - even more recently - a pretty dramatic decline in fertility rates that suggest that those numbers will come down.</s>COLUM LYNCH: The U.N. sort of thinks that we'll reach a kind of an area of perfect what they call sort of a replacement level where, you know, each sort of woman would produce exactly 2.1 children over the next 100 years. There isn't a lot of evidence to suggest that countries that are having very, very few children or countries that are having lots of children, you know, any reason to think that they will get to the 2.1 sort of perfect model fertility rate. But that's kind of the way that the U.N. has been looking at it.</s>COLUM LYNCH: They picked that as a sort of the probability that at some point in the next 100 years, that we will all sort of enter into this period where everyone sort of reproduces at the rate that they sort of occupy the Earth.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, the theory is that as countries' prosperity improves, the number of children born to each family declines, and China would seem to embody that. India, maybe not so much.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Yeah. And China - I mean, China is almost the sort of odd, you know, selection out, because, you know, they didn't sort of naturally reach this sort of - I mean, their replacement rate is 1.5, and 2.1 is considered, you know, kind of reproducing the same number of people and keeping a kind of stable planet, the same population. And so they didn't do it through sort of - because of some economic incentives. They did it through state coercive measures dating back to the 1970s, which required families not to have more than one child. And so...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Or at least families in cities.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Right. The families in cities. And so that's a different model. I mean, the - you know, India has also used some coercive measures at certain periods in their history, but - whereas China is now going to be kind of leveling out, I think India's growth rate over the last 10 years or so has been sort of 17 percent, and they're expected to sort of pass the Chinese within the next 25 years or so to become the most populous country on the planet.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And what is our record? We keep, you know, doing these projections. You know, we're at seven billion now, eight billion by x number of years; 10.1 by the end of the century. What's our record on these projections? How good are we at it?</s>COLUM LYNCH: Well, I've been talking to - I mean, I have - personally, I have no idea, but I'm talking to a lot of demographers and sort of historians and experts on this. And they say that, traditionally, we've been very bad at guessing, that there was a sort of the first major decline in U.S. fertility rates during the Great Depression. Nobody predicted it. There was, you know, the baby boom that followed the Second World War. Nobody predicted that. No one predicted the following baby bust. I would presume people are predicting a decline now because of the economy hardship. But I'm not sure whether they're able to really assess the impact yet on population.</s>COLUM LYNCH: But you have other sort of situations where, you know, there had been massive movements of people, migration during the 1970s and 1980s that have sort of reconfigured, sort of, you know, the population centers around the world, and that wasn't really foreseen. So there's a lot of stuff that has happened along this front that no one guess - I mean, there's a great example that one academic pointed out to me, which is Iran. Iran in 1960 had something like, you know, each woman was conceiving 6.72 children, and they're now below replacement level, about 1.6 percent, I think. I might be slightly off, but about 1.6 percent. And most of this decline occurred after the Islamic revolution. So, you know, you wouldn't really expect that to happen, but it did.</s>COLUM LYNCH: So - and there's also the added sort of complication, that it's, you know, it's one thing to sort of predict how people might behave, people who are kind of producing children right now. And, you know, what can you say about how the whole new generation of people who aren't born yet? How they're going to make, you know, what sort of decision they will be making about how many children they have.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And as you pointed out in your piece, this skips over the, well, probably remote possibility of an asteroid striking the Earth or the, perhaps, less remote possibility of some new plague or something like that.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Yeah. I mean, apparently, the HIV that - Africa was due to surpass, I mean, Europe and the United States much more rapidly in terms of overall population. And essentially, the HIV epidemic has slowed that down. I mean, they will reach it at some point in the not too-distant future, but those kinds of incidence have a kind of unforeseen impact on, you know, on fertility rates, or less than it is - this would be less on fertility rates, but on mortality rates. And so that has a big impact on population growth. I mean, one of the things that's kind of driven the sort of explosive growth over the last 100 years has been the extraordinary changes in mortality rates. I mean, the fact that, you know, people are living much longer and, you know, while - during periods when there's been sufficiently high fertility rates.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with Colum Lynch, a U.N. reporter for The Washington Post, author of the Turtle Bay blog at Foreign Policy magazine. And he wrote the piece "It's a Small World" for foreignpolicy.com. It's on the Opinion Page today. What does 7 billion mean to you? 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. John(ph) is on the line from Crestview in Florida.</s>JOHN: Yes. I have a question about the island nations like the Philippines, and their landmass is finite, and the amount of food they can grow there is not very large. And their Pacquiao, the boxer, is fighting the president there over state-sponsored population control because of the Catholic religion is the dominant religion in the area. They ever looked at that and, I mean...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Manny Pacquiao is, of course, the great boxing champion, also a member of Congress in the Philippines, but Colum Lynch.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Well, it's a great question, but I'm afraid I don't have an answer on the Philippines. I mean, you know, one of the things that - one of the issues sort of related to this is, let's say, on issues of population control.</s>COLUM LYNCH: You know, there is - one of the academics I talked to by the name of Matthew Connelly at Columbia University, one of his concerns is that, you know, we set up these kind of expectations of population reaching a certain point like, say, you know, 2.1 fertility rate at 2100. And what happens if you - if countries don't reach those rates? Let's say there's, you know, there are efforts in Russia, in Macedonia, in France to try and provide economic incentives to mothers to bear more children. But generally, those are not seen as sufficient to really bring a country like Russia back to a replacement rate.</s>COLUM LYNCH: And so there are concerns that the countries will, in the future - that he cited - that they will use coercive measures. They'll look more to the Chinese model to try and enforce either through, you know, hopefully as draconian as you see it in China, but even through, you know, tax disincentives to individuals who don't bear children and other mechanisms to try and control population growth. So there's concerns about that, that kind of raise in the process of reporting this.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This email from Robert in Lakewood, Ohio. We certainly have to hope the projections for accelerating population growth are wrong. Not too many years ago, we thought there were abundant fish populations in the ocean that would feed a growing population. We now know many once common species of fish are in decline, if not threatened. With so many dying from starvation and many more going to bed hungry already, where do we think the resources are to feed another billion or two? And I didn't even get to the needs for water and energy. I'm not very hopeful because we are ignoring the obvious.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about population growth and the number 7 billion today on the Opinion Page. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And let's get John on, John with us from Columbia, South Carolina. John?</s>JOHN: Hello.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hi. You're on the air. Go ahead, please.</s>JOHN: Hi, Neal. Thanks for taking my call.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Sure.</s>JOHN: I was just wondering, is there a natural function for this or do they just - is it an educated guess or is it all based on just polls?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: How do they project that population growth, Colum Lynch?</s>COLUM LYNCH: Yeah. Generally, they're based on national census figures. So the United Nations has a population division. There's a wonderful guy, he used to run that named Joseph Chamie, who, you know, spends all his time looking at these numbers and coming up with wonderful trends about explaining why, you know, you see instability in Northern Africa, in the Middle East and, you know, kind of how those things tend to fall - follow huge spurts of population growth. But essentially, these are all compiled by national census figures. Some countries are better taking censuses than they are in other countries. So it's not a perfect measure. But I don't think that it's seen as kind of widely unrepresentative of the reality of where the population is now.</s>COLUM LYNCH: I mean, as we've been saying, not as useful in predicting futures patterns. But, you know, as I was saying earlier, there's no reason to think that the 7th billion baby was born on Halloween day in 2011. Ten year, the - I mean, when the 6th billion baby was born, the U.N. made a big sort of event out of it, and they identified the supposed 6th billion baby in Bosnia and spent a lot of time, you know, kind of focus and attention on that to sort of draw attention to the whole issue. But, of course, they had no idea back then that it was a Bosnian, and they have no idea now whether this is happening today or yesterday or a month ago or six months ago or six months into the future.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: John, thanks very much.</s>JOHN: Oh, thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Adam. At some point, population will correct itself. The ways this could happen: plague, disease, starvation, fresh water depletion are pretty horrifying. And those are - well, other than the asteroid, I think he's got them.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Yeah. They are pretty horrifying. I spent a little less time focusing on the kind of resources challenges because I was looking a bit more at the countries that were in decline. But clearly - I mean, you have - some of my colleagues did a piece for The Washington Post, which talked about issues involving depletions of anchovy stocks off the coast of South America. And, you know, essentially, what you're finding is, you know, that the sort of globalization of, you know, sort of these various fishing industries that, you know, countries with huge appetites for these basic resources, China, India, others that, you know, that their sort of appetite in order to feed and, you know, China's population will equalize.</s>COLUM LYNCH: But the issues is, in some ways, more about consumption and their - even though, you know, their population may stabilize, their consumption levels are increasing. And so, you know, this has to come from somewhere. And there has been some hope during the recent sort of food crisis over the last couple of years that, you know, you could begin to develop sort of industrialized farming in Africa, that there's lots of places for that, that they could go through the kind of green revolution that you saw in Asia over the, you know, over subsequent - over previous decades, that, you know, that the world needs to innovate. It needs to be creative. It needs to think very hard and long about sort of the long-term possibilities that they will have to feed an extra billion people in the next 14 years.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And everybody looked at those numbers and said, it's going to mean, on average, we will be poorer. However, if you also look even farther out and believe those numbers that the world population might actually decline, people say, wait a minute. How could we have economic growth in a declining population? We'll all be poorer that way too.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Export economies. I guess, the only - the best example of someone being able to - countries being able to sort of hold their own are countries like Germany and Japan, which are on sort of the far range of countries that are really seeing huge declines in fertility rates, that they have done well economically through, you know, depended on the sort of export economy because people aren't consuming domestically in the way that they did previously. But it's not clear that that's the sort of sustainable model for everyone.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email that we have from Joshua in South Bend, and I'm not sure you know the answer to this. Is there an ideal level for the population of the Earth to be at? If so, what's your opinion on the, quote, "Georgia Guidestones," unquote, mandate to maintain the population level below 500 million? That's - well, I'm just looking. I think that's the right numbers of zeroes, 500 million. In which case, we're way past that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah. I have no idea. But I think that - I think that there's almost this kind of sense of not so much of a perfect number but a perfect rate that, you know, that there's a lot of focus on, a sustainable rate, and a lot of it. At the U.N., that tends to be a rate that's, you know, replacement rate, which is about 2.1.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Colum Lynch, United Nations correspondent for the Washington Post, writes the Turtle Bay blog at Foreign Policy magazine. He joined us today from our bureau in New York. Thanks very much.</s>COLUM LYNCH: Thanks very much for having me, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And you can find a link to his recent Foreign Policy piece at our website. Go to npr.org, and click on TALK OF THE NATION. We posted links to several of the other op-eds that caught our eye. You can find some of those at facebook.com/nprtalk.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow, what should schools teach about sex? It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan, in Washington.

NPR's Neal Conan reads from listener comments on the past week's show topics including what makes a monster a monster, the legacy of NPR's outgoing Senior Foreign Editor Loren Jenkins, the reality of being in a polygamous marriage, and the many ways student debt affects people's decisions.

NEAL CONAN, host: It's Tuesday and time to read from your comments. Our discussion with author and filmmaker Guillermo del Toro generated a lot of responses about what it really means to be a monster. Mary in Virginia Beach, Virginia, tweeted: It helps if a monster is physically terrifying. That definitely freaks me out. And Lisa Hermenez(ph) wrote: Monsters inspire our instinctual fears. As a result, we love to hate them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: When we talked with NPR's outgoing senior foreign editor, Loren Jenkins, we asked about your priorities in foreign news. Charles Merriam(ph) from San Jose, California, wrote: I would strive to bring relevance to the stories presented. For example, in all the reporting of the Greek debt crisis, we never heard how big the debt is in terms of euros. Similarly, we hear of foreign wars and have no idea how many people are fighting.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We also talked with Joe and Alina Darger, two of the authors of the book "Love Times Three," about their polygamous marriage. From Cincinnati, Rich Silbirger(ph) emailed: I'm from a traditional family, and I have no problem with plural marriages. This occurs cross-culturally in other parts of the world. However, what bothers me is when these families choose to go on public assistance to support their families, exploiting the system and burdening the rest of society.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Christina in Davis, California, offered a different opinion. I watched "Big Love" and have started reading memoirs about plural marriage, which are very one-sided. I think this lifestyle makes so much sense and believe a plural marriage is ideal. I don't know if I believe any of the faith that goes with it. I haven't explored that. But if I get married, this may be the route I want to take.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Finally, in yesterday's conversation on student loans and the way debt can affect decisions, a number of listeners complained that when we included wildlife biology as one of the professions where it's hard to find work these days, we unfairly maligned the field. Mary Oberman(ph) wrote on Facebook: It breaks my heart that some consider wildlife biology as fluff endeavor. How can our nation and our states make decisions about their environment, natural resources and endangered species without the input from these kinds of specialists?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If you have a correction, comment or questions for us, the best way to reach us is by email. The address is talk@npr.org. Please, let us know where you're writing from and give us some help on how to pronounce your name. You can also find us and like us if you feel like it at facebook.com/nprtalk. And if you're on Twitter, you can follow us there @totn, or follow me, @nealconan, all one word.

In recent days, demonstrators in Oakland have been forced to adapt as police pushed them out of their encampment near city hall. Protesters called for a general strike Wednesday, prompting many downtown businesses to close and teachers and city workers to march, rather than report to work. Lee Romney, staff writer, Los Angeles Times. Read his piece, "Oakland engulfed by mostly peaceful protest."

NEAL CONAN, HOST: Demonstrators continue to march and camp out in cities across the country, inspired by Occupy Wall Street. But yesterday, protesters in Oakland tried something different. Thousands marched through the city in what they called a general strike. They paraded through the streets through much of the day then down to its busy port where they blocked entrances and closed it down. Later, police in riot gear fired teargas as some protesters broke windows and lit fires downtown.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Many downtown businesses shut their doors yesterday. Hundreds of teachers and city workers skipped work to join the march. If there's an Occupy movement where you live, we need you to be our reporter. How is it changing? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Los Angeles Times staff writer Lee Romney has been covering Occupy Oakland and joins us now from Youth Radio studios in Oakland. Nice to have you on TALK OF THE NATION today.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Thank you for having me.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And so what's happening in Oakland today?</s>LEE ROMNEY: Well, today is interesting. There was a small group of protesters who tried to keep port workers from entering again this morning, and they were - they managed to hold a few trucks back, but the response was not as warm as it was yesterday. Yesterday, most of the trucks were honking in support. Today, one of them said - one trucker waved a baseball bat at them and said get a job. So I think there's a bit of frustration. You know, there's this chorus of we're the 99 percent. You're part of the 99 percent.</s>LEE ROMNEY: And some workers are starting to feel, well, we are the 99 percent, so let us go to work. But that - the port is operating normally. They did not have enough people to kind of maintain that. And then at Civic Center Plaza, there's a lot of soul-searching going on right now around the relatively small group of vandals that's been kind of responsible for escalating matters with the police. Seven thousand people turned out yesterday, and it was predominantly nonviolent, almost a jubilant atmosphere. And so there are folks who are very frustrated that what they want portrayed as a peaceful protest keeps getting undermined by a minority.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: A minority, according to some reports, including yours, there were a few people in black clothes with black masks, anarchists presumably, who were involved in this destruction.</s>LEE ROMNEY: That's what - police are calling them anarchists. They're sort of a subset, and I think that folks on the plaza today were saying, well, we have other people who identify as anarchists who've been very helpful in building this movement. They've been relatively peaceful. So let's call them vandals. But they are a group that seems to be largely - many of them are from out of the area. They started coming to Oakland when there were protests over the shooting of a young African-American man by BART police.</s>LEE ROMNEY: And I think they sensed there was sort of a vacuum in Oakland where they could sort of do their actions. And so there were about 60 to 70 is what police estimated, and they do tend to cover their faces. And the reaction to them by the rest of the crowd was uncover your face. You're ruining it for all of us. They smashed some bank windows, and then, others later put a sign up saying we're better than this, sorry. And at a Wells Fargo branch, the Occupy movement folks, some of them went and actually scrubbed graffiti off the walls, and they're doing that today downtown.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Some people have started to kind of wipe some of the, you know, more incendiary comments off the wall about capitalists being, you know, hung out to dry and so forth.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Yeah. Take us back a little bit. It was just last week, I think, that police evicted the Occupy encampment and then allowed it to resume.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Yes. Oakland has Mayor Jean Quan, who identifies as a former activist, as a progressive, and so people were quite upset. I think there was a feeling that the camp had gotten a bit out of hand. They were not allowing emergency personnel or police to come in. They were choosing to sort of self-police. And again, it's such a broad movement. There was a lot of debate around that, and not everyone agreed. But it became - the city felt it was untenable. They moved in, and I think their mistake was thinking that was going to be the end of it.</s>LEE ROMNEY: There was a very large protest that night in response. And it was at that protest that about 16 police agencies here for mutual aid fired quite a bit of teargas and other projectiles into the crowd in response to some people throwing rocks and bottles. But a lot of nonviolent protesters were impacted. A young Iraqi veteran was hit in the head and had a skull fracture, Scott Olsen, and there's become this sort of cry around the country: We are all Scott Olsen. So that really emboldened the movement. The mayor then let them re-establish their camp, and it's created, you know, this resentment against her from the protesters. And now, there's a resentment by the business community and the police officers who are saying, hey, what's going on here? These are mix messages, and where does it end?</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: We want callers in on the conversation. Be our reporters today. If there's an Occupy movement in your city or town, how is it changing? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. We have a caller from Oakland, Colin(ph).</s>COLIN: Good morning.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Good morning. Go ahead.</s>COLIN: My - yes. My office has been shut down yesterday and also on the date that the - Mayor Quan decided to evict the protesters. And this has been causing my employer a lot of money. This isn't really coming out of paycheck, but I think that the coverage by the media of the Occupy Wall Street movement as it's manifested itself in Oakland has been ignoring what the costs have been to the employers and the local economy. And just as a side note, I would interject that I think it will be very serious mistake for President Obama and the Democratic Party to identify themselves with the movement, which seems to be agitating just to shut down the U.S. economy in a fit of spite.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: What kind of business are you in, Colin?</s>COLIN: I work for a law firm.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: A law firm. OK. Thanks very much for the phone call.</s>COLIN: And we've been entirely, you know, our offices have been closed down for all of yesterday and, you know, we're kind of upset about the potential for, you know, further closures on account of the encampment across the city hall plaza from us.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Lee Romney, I wanted to ask you, your piece reported that yesterday, some stores in Oakland - downtown Oakland - closed in - to recognize the general strike. Others closed, you said, out of fear.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Yeah, I think it was a little hard to tell. Many people put signs in support, others boarded up. There was a camera shot that boarded up its door. And I think some of them just did not know what to expect and didn't want to be caught in the middle of, you know, another big police action. But there is a lot of discussion and sort of legitimate confusion about who is getting hurt by this.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Oakland does not have a lot of resources. We have an understaffed police force. The schools - there are school closures occurring, there have been a large number of foreclosures. Unemployment is 15 percent. And while some people think, you know, just drawing attention to the message is what's most important, there are a lot of people asking, you know, who is this really hurting in the long run?</s>LEE ROMNEY: City Council President Larry Reid has been very vocal about saying, Oakland needs businesses. You know, Oakland needs tax revenue. And the Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce here in Oakland also has said that a number of commercial landlords just had some - several deals fall through for tenants who are just concerned about whether it's a good climate. The Chinatown Merchants Association, they said, hey, we can't afford to close down. And so these are some of the people who the movement, you know, quote, unquote, "is speaking for." And it's not that clear, you know, who is getting hurt in the long run.</s>LEE ROMNEY: I think there's a feeling that it's - that people have a lot of pent up frustration over economic inequality and over city and state budget cuts and so forth. And they want to be heard, and this is an opportunity for that. But if it continues to hurt the city and cut into, you know, a dwindling city budget, that's going to cause increasing consternation.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: The port, for example, is a major economic asset.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Yeah. The port does an average of $8.5 million in business a day, so it was hard to know exactly what the impact was from being shut down overnight. Night is, you know, a less active time, but, obviously, an impact.</s>LEE ROMNEY: One of the reasons why the port has often been the site of protest, the International Longshore and Warehouse Union has a rare contract clause that allows them to honor a community picket line if it meets certain criteria. Most unions have a blanket no-strike clause. And so, sometimes, the port, you know, the port is chosen as a symbol of, you know, the economic engine. But also, I think the demonstrators realized that if they have a presence there, they could, perhaps, persuade the workers coming on to their shifts not to cross that line.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Here's an email from Jane(ph) in Portland. During a fairly aimless protest march over two Portland bridges yesterday at rush hour, an Occupy Portland demonstrator, unprovoked, pushed a Portland policeman in front of a moving TriMet bus. The policeman suffered minor injuries, and the protester was arrested after everyone came back to the Occupy camp. Although Portland is the most liberal West Coast city after San Francisco, the bad element among the occupiers will ultimately spoil it for the naive idealists who started that, couple that with the reality that the camp which took over the downtown - two downtown squares holds a majority of homeless, tweakers, street youths and various other social misfits.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And that's another aspect of this, that some Occupy encampments - and I don't know if it's the situation there in Oakland - have to deal with that these are good places if you're homeless to find, well, company and food.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Yeah. Yes, that's true. And I think that, you know, the encampment here has really tried to also embrace that community to the extent that, you know, if anyone represents the, sort of, the have-nots, it would be someone who is homeless and has no health care and no food and so forth. But it has made for, you know, a complicated negotiations in what is effectively a leaderless movement. There's - everything is done by consensus, and there's a lot of disagreement, you know.</s>LEE ROMNEY: And I think, in San Francisco, there were some folks who asked homeless people who aren't committed to the cause to kind of move over to a different park and, you know, to control it in that sense. But here, I think, there's a feeling that that runs contrary to what they stand for. But it's hard to, you know, it's hard to manage a movement that represents so many different political views and classes and races. And it's particularly true in Oakland, which is a very diverse city and one with a tremendous amount of economic disparity.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Lee Romney reports for the Los Angeles Times' San Francisco bureau. She's with us today from Oakland. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: This email from Pensacola, Florida, and Kerry(ph) in Pensacola: We've had an Occupy movement camped out for several weeks. They were in a median between the main thoroughfare downtown. But because there's typically a farmer's market there on Saturdays and sanitation was becoming an issue in that spot, the city government offered them a spot at city hall. They've now relocated into a tent city under the grassed oak-canopied lawn of the city hall. They are very peaceful and seem like a pretty reasonable group.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And I have to say that, Lee Romney, that that's probably true of the vast majority of the Occupy movements around the country. Oakland, because of that history you mentioned going back to the protest over the murder - of the killing in a BART station, is unique. And is it fair to say that had the violence not erupted last night, that the story this morning would not have been violence flares again, it would have been middle class marches joined protest in Oakland?</s>LEE ROMNEY: Yeah. I think it was, you know, middle class marchers. It was people with kids. It was seniors. It was the disabled. It was union workers. It was the unemployed. It really was everybody. And I think it's important to remember that it still really was a minority. There was damage done.</s>LEE ROMNEY: But I talked to one gentleman at the encampment this morning who actually gave kudos to police for the way they handle it, you know, not everyone feels that way. But they focused more this time on the people who were lighting fires, throwing things. And they sort of just contained the rest of the peaceful crowd. I think, to them, they still felt like, hey, why are we surrounded with riot-geared officers? And there was some teargas. But it was not a repeat of last week, where every time a single individual threw something, there was a teargas around that affected everybody. There were a lot of different agencies firing different types of projectiles, and that is all going to be the topic of a city council meeting this meeting here. That's going to be very heated, I'm sure.</s>LEE ROMNEY: But it was still a fairly small number, but there are businesses vandalized. And it just overtakes the message. I think it's hard for it not to. It's what people see. They say the pictures of people lighting, you know, barricades on fire, and they associate it with the larger movement.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Here's an email from Terry(ph) in Kansas City. The situation here has turned from peaceful to prostitution and drugs. And many people fear to stay and have, thus, gone home. I think it's gotten out of control. The main message has been lost.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is from Alex in Delray Beach in Florida. Here, there is not one, single element of Occupy Wall Street in my neck of the woods. Unlike most of America, I couldn't be happier.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's go next to Jesse(ph), Jesse with us from Grand Junction in Colorado.</s>JESSE: Thank you, Neal. Basically, in Grand Junction, we have a very small population, and the Colorado weather has started to set in. So we've came to the consensus that a permanent occupation isn't going to do us a lot of good. The movement as a whole is in its very early stages, and one of the problems we've already ran into is the polarization of our efforts. We've had an overwhelming amount of support, but still have media sources and individuals out there putting a partisan spin on this, and not only moving away from the movement but actually working to criticize and destroy it.</s>JESSE: So our goals for the next several weeks and months is getting the public involved with the movement, whether that's by educations or weekly rallies and marches and on-the-road occupations. One of the first occupations we're planning is on houses that are in foreclosure. Basically, we've sent letters out to the homeowners that are in foreclosure and basically said, we know you're doing the right thing. You've paid your bills on time and you deserve a home, a very basic part of the American dream. So for those folks who are providing informational support to them to help them, and we're offering to vigil on their lawns to make this issue better known.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: OK, Jesse...</s>JESSE: We're starting to becoming like a microcosm support for the community...</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Jesse, I don't...</s>JESSE: ...and if anybody that has concerns, we're asking to come forward.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Jesse, I don't mean to cut you off, but we need to get somebody - wanted to get one more comment in from Lee Romney. And that is - this is - and that cold weather in Colorado, but other places, this has to change. It can't just be what it was.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Whether it can just continue indefinitely in this?</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Yeah.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Yeah. I think that's true. And it's difficult to see how it's going to evolve because I think that, you know, there's a lot of discussion - in San Francisco as well - about supporting free speech and the use of public space. I think, at the encampment here, they have - they're making a greater effort than before they were raised last week to maintain safety and security, to agree to let, you know, police in if there's an issue and so forth. So they're trying. But I still think that it can't, you know, it can't go on for months and months and months.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Lee Romney, thanks very much for your time.</s>LEE ROMNEY: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Lee Romney, a staff writer with the Los Angeles Times' San Francisco bureau, with us today from Youth Radio in Oakland.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Coming up on Monday, Herman Cain and a new politics of race and, of course, the Opinion Page. Join us for that. Have a great weekend. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

Politicians and law enforcement officials have long focused on reducing crime by putting criminals behind bars. Now, some have challenged the effectiveness of that approach, arguing that the best way to reduce crime is to offer second chances to low-level, non-violent offenders. Steve Teske, Clayton County, Georgia Juvenile Court Judge David Kennedy, co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities

NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. If the threat of prison is supposed to deter crime, it's not working; record numbers are behind bars. And while all those bad actors off the street may contribute to lower crime rates in recent years, many believe there have to be better ways.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Today we'll focus on two ideas to offer kids and nonviolent offenders a second chance, and they're not just theories. Criminologist David Kennedy and Judge Steve Teske tried out their ideas on the streets and in the courts. Now others are trying them, too. Details in a moment, but we want to hear from those of you with experience in the criminal justice system: How did your first experience with cops and courts change your life? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Later in the program, Los Angeles Times reporter Lee Romney joins us to discuss how Occupy Oakland has changed from encampment to marches and yesterday to a general strike. If there's an occupy movement where you live, be our reporter and email us: Has it changed? The email address again is talk@npr.org.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: But we begin with Clayton County Juvenile Judge Steve Teske, who joins us from a studio in Atlanta. Nice to have you with us today.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Thank you, good to be with you.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And when you started, I understand you found your juvenile court filling up with kids under - facing minor offenses. What was the problem?</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Well, the problem was we had school resource officers, you know, after Columbine a lot of schools had police on campus to protect them from violence, and the thing is that, you know, police are trained to do their job, and you've got to be careful not to blame them. The only problem was we didn't train them. We put them on the campus, and so they did exactly what they were trained to do. They arrest everything that was a crime, including what I call soft offenses, school frights or frays, disorderly conduct, mouthing off and disrupting public school.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: And so as a result, most of the cases coming in were your low-level misdemeanor offenses, and it clogged up the courts.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: So these are things that in an earlier day might have ended up at the principal's office, and these days they ended up in handcuffs.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: That's correct.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And what did you do?</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Well, first of all, I brought everyone together, the chief of police and the school superintendent. I showed them the statistics. I showed them the research that the more you arrest, the more you suspend, your dropout rates are going to go up, and that wasn't helping at all because most of these kids were not delinquent in the first place.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: I mean the fact remains is that just because you commit a delinquent act doesn't make you delinquent. I committed delinquent acts. I didn't find myself in handcuffs.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I did, too, and neither did I. but in other words, what you were trying to do was interrupt what some have described as the school-to-prison pipeline.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Absolutely, and so we got together. It took us nine months, and we developed a protocol to find another alternative. And what we did is that we decided not to arrest these kids and focus only on the more serious offenses. And so as a result, we had a dramatic decrease in the referrals to the juvenile court by 72 percent.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: But since then, our graduation rates have gone up 24 percent, and our serious weapon charges have gone down 70 percent.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: So it seems to be working.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: It is working. It's all based on relationships because now the school police are on the campus all the time. The kids don't see them as the bad guys. And so they're building these relationships with the kids, and as a result, they're getting more information, and they're able to stop things from happening before they get on the campus.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Stay with us, Judge, we want to hear your response to some of our callers, but there are other ways to try to keep low-level offenders out of prison. Also joining us is David Kennedy, a criminologist, author of the book "Don't Shoot: One Man, A Street Fellowship and the End of Violence in Inner-city America." He joins us from our bureau in New York. Nice to have you with us today.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: Neal, Judge.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And I know you've been brought in to different cities, Boston and Highpoint, North Carolina, for two, to work with law enforcement. And what is the approach that you've pioneered when you're dealing with low-level drug dealers?</s>DAVID KENNEDY: Well, the judge said it: It's all based on relationships. And he's really exactly right. That's a wonderful story he's telling. And this stuff works not just with low-level offending but with, as it turns out, some extremely serious stuff.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And what we do with the drug dealers is recognize again what the judge just said, that in our quest to protect these institutions, his are schools and mine are these neighborhoods, we are doing tremendous unintended damage. And these are neighborhoods with open-air drug markets and crack houses and white drive-through buyers and all that kind of thing.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And most of the men can end up with criminal records, at which point they're doomed, and their community is damaged. And so what we do instead is identify the drug dealers - there are never that many, even in the most distressed neighborhood - get a case ready to go, look at whether they're violent or not. If they're violent, then they get arrested and prosecuted in a traditional way.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: If they're not, rather than arresting them, we go to their parents and grandparents. We talk to everybody. We have a community meeting, and in the community meeting, the community says we need you to stop what you're doing. We are for you, but we are against a couple of things you're doing. We would like to help you. We would like you to succeed and thrive.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And the police say we don't want to ruin your life. If you stop, we will suspend this case, but we are putting you on notice that the next time you go to the corner and sell drugs, we need no more evidence, we need no new information, we open the jacket, we sign the warrant, you will go to jail, and you are now on prior notice. And nearly everybody stops.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Nearly everybody stops.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: Nearly everybody stops.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Because most of those people who are selling drugs are users, too.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: It's not so much that, although there's truth to that. The main thing that happens is the community norm that says we don't want this is very clear. The community and the police start seeing each other in different ways, just as the judge said happens with the police and his kids. They're not the antagonists at odds that they were before all this began.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: The potential offenders know that the next time they offend, there's an almost certain likelihood that there will be a sanction, which is not the world they usually live in, and you disrupt the pattern in the neighborhood that keeps this drug market cycle going.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: The guys on the corner, so the buyers come in, so the sellers go to the corner and so the buyers come in, you can break that dynamic, and the neighborhood is a different place.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And also instead of the generalized deterrence - if you commit a crime, the police will find you and send you to jail - this is very specific. You, Mr. Jones, the next time we see you, if you're bad, you're going to jail.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: That's right.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I wonder, Judge, what's your reaction to that?</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Well, I agree. In fact, I have to confess I'm familiar with David's work, and his work was cited as part of the research around the part about building relationships and trying to help the police to take a cognitive shift in looking at how to do what I call better policing.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: And let me say this. You know, I agree - and this whole thing around school safety has extended beyond the scope of the schools because what's happened is that, you know, our police, our school police used to be called kiddie cops. No one calls them kiddie cops anymore.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: For example, you know, we've had a couple school resource officers been named officer of the year and cited for solving more crimes in the community, including homicides, than any other police officer because the detectives know that they need the SROs because they're a rich resource because of the type of relationship-building that they have done.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: I mean, think about it. Police, one of the greatest tactics for police is gathering intelligence to prevent crime and to solve crimes. You're not going to do that if you're going to distort relationships. It's like, you know, the wolves and the sheep. You don't - you know, you've got to protect the sheep but, you know, so don't go after the sheep. Don't eat them up. If you want to go after the wolves, then use the sheep, protect the sheep and build a relationship with them.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Schools are a microcosm of the community. But you know what? The kids can tell you what's going on, but they're not going to talk to you if you're beating them up.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And that goes, I assume, David Kennedy, as I read, a lot of the evidence that you have against these street-corner drug dealers is videotape evidence. It's not necessarily snitches.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: That's right, but there are all kinds of clever ways, it turns out, to use very traditional legal powers in new and strategy ways and get very different results. And that's important. What's even more important is what you just heard from Judge Teske, which is that the most important force for good in a community or school or any of those places is that the people of those communities and institutions want to live in good ways.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And they need help. They need help from law enforcement. They need help from the rest of us. But no community wants to be dangerous or sick or frightened or worry about its kids dying or all of its men going to prison. Communities don't want to live like that.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And over about 30 years, this country has locked up more and more and more and more people. This is a country now where if you are a black man, you stand a one in three chance that you will go to prison during your lifetime. Those men overwhelmingly come from historically distressed minority communities, especially black communities.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And in the name of protecting them, we have been locking everybody up. We have been kicking their doors in. We have been stopping them on the street. One of my black friends says if you want to destroy a civilization, lock it up, and he's right.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And just as happened with Judge Teske's kids, we have alienated these neighborhoods. They don't want to talk to us. They don't want to talk to the cops. They see the outside as an oppressive force, and things just get worse. You can reverse that, and you can bring out the norm, the standards, the desire of any community to live well and be safe.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Briefly, we just have a few seconds before the break, but Judge Teske, you mentioned some categories of minor crimes that this program works on in schools. Does that include drug crimes?</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Yes. I mean, the program was not initially designed for drug crimes, but the police have started to broaden it on their own. Even though the protocol is specific about these certain what we call focus acts or soft offenses, over the last several years, the police, in seeing it work, have stopped making their own arrests on those offenses not included in the written protocol, which includes possession of drugs and things of that nature.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: I mean, instead of making the referral, they'll work with the kids and call it in to the court.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Steve Teske, Clayton County Juvenile Court judge. Also with us, David Kennedy, co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities and director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control. We're talking about ideas to keep people out of jail.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: If you've had experience with the criminal justice system, what was your first experience with the cops and the courts? How did it change your life? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan, TALK OF THE NATION, NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. It costs on average over $60 a day to house someone in state prison. Budgets are tight, and many officials are looking for ways to keep people out of those prisons. According to a report in USA Today, more than a half-dozen states are reclassifying a variety of property crimes.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Instead of felonies, which often require jail time, some offenses are now considered misdemeanors: offenses like theft, criminal mischief and check-kiting, an approach that might save money but not necessarily prevent crime.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: That's the goal of two programs we're talking about today. Both offer low-level offenders a second chance and help them avoid jail time in the name of safer communities. Our guests are Judge Steve Teske, a juvenile court judge in Clayton County, Georgia; and David Kennedy, who directs the Center for Crime Prevention and Control at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City. He's also the other of "Don't Shoot: One Man, a Street Fellowship and the End of Violence in Inner-city America."</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: We want to hear from those of you with experience in the criminal justice system. How did your first experience with the cops and courts change you? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Our first caller is Jimmy(ph), Jimmy with us from Morrison in Illinois.</s>JIMMY: Hello.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Hi, you're on the air.</s>JIMMY: Okay. Well, yeah, I don't think it's going to do much good. When I first ran into trouble with the police when I was younger, I got arrested. It didn't change my mind at all, it just made me more angry. It didn't stop me from wanting to do things I was doing already. I didn't see where I was harming anyone.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And was this a drug crime?</s>JIMMY: Yeah, it was. I got arrested for drug paraphernalia. I think... Huh?</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: What was the disposition of your case? Did you do time in jail?</s>JIMMY: Not for that one, no. I did for another one that came later on in life.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And so you just got angry, being given - essentially allowed to walk for the first one did not help you.</s>JIMMY: I didn't get to walk for the first one. I had to pay a whole lot of money out of my pocket. I was on probation for a while.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I see, and it just irritated you?</s>JIMMY: Yeah, it just irritated me. I think what irritated me the most about it was that my rights were violated in the first place, for them to arrest me. I was minding my own business. They asked me for ID in a bar – I was in college. I gave them the same ID I gave the doorman, and then they said they didn't believe it was me. I explained that it was, and if they weren't happy with me being there, I'd be glad to leave. And instead, they grabbed me, drug me down a staircase and searched me.</s>JIMMY: Then they slammed my head into the side of a police car door.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I can understand being a little irritated.</s>JIMMY: Yeah.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And later, you did time for what?</s>JIMMY: For drugs again. I had a terrible cocaine problem for a while. And I got away from that, but I wouldn't credit them with any bit of that. I just got in trouble. When I got out of jail from that, I was still getting in trouble, still doing things that could get me in trouble.</s>JIMMY: I ended up quitting on my own, not because of anything they did.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Congratulations on that, Jimmy, and thanks very much for the phone call. And by illustration, David Kennedy, how does Jimmy's experience differ from the idea of a focused deterrence that you're promoting?</s>DAVID KENNEDY: It doesn't. So, if you will, imagine entire American communities, whole neighborhoods and blocks of neighborhoods, where everybody feels the way Jimmy feels. That it is the normal experience of men in those neighborhoods that they are treated that he just told he that he was treated, and they feel exactly the same way about it that he does.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And now it's not just one person. It is the men in the neighborhood. It is their families. It is their friends. It is how the neighborhood feels. They are angry. They feel abused. In many instances, they have been abused. They see the police as neither helping nor caring about them, nor treating them either with respect or legally.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And we should not expect communities to like being treated like that, and they don't talk to us. They don't snitch. You know, everything that people read as a natural condition of the neighborhood is, in a real way, helped along, even caused by the way we are treating them. And if we treat people differently, they respond differently.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: One of the initiatives described in "Don't Shoot" is not even aimed at low-level offenders. It is aimed at the most serious gun and gang offenders in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago. And it a carefully evaluated fact that sitting down with those guys as they come back into the neighborhood from actually having served prison time, and talking with them, respectfully, for an hour about what the community wants from them, what the community wants for them and having them informed in a businesslike way by law enforcement what their legal vulnerabilities are, led to an almost 40-percent reduction of homicide in that neighborhood, and the people who go through the meetings do dramatically better for years.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: This is work we are learning how to do. It is very powerful.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I wanted to ask an email question from Cooper(ph) in Toledo to Judge Teske. Two questions for the judge. Where do you actually live? Have you ever had to ask your 12-year-old to get down on the floor when shots were fired in your neighborhood? I make the assumption, in asking this question, that he does not live in a neighborhood where criminal teenagers and young adults affect him and his family directly. It's a purely academic question to him.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I live in a strong, solid, middle-class neighborhood that has been thrown to the wolves by a school system and a city administration that have made us a crossroads for criminal adolescents. We had five shots fired in the middle of trick-or-treating this week by out-of-neighborhood gangs that have been allowed free rein by politicians and judges. I have no more patience for youth crime anymore: Lock them up.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Well, that's the frustration I hear from a number of communities. First on point, well, Clayton County, Georgia, is a suburb of Atlanta. It's the poorest county in the metro area. We have the most free lunches, the highest foreclosure rates.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Yeah, I've heard gunshots. I was a parole officer for 10 years - the streets of Atlanta, carried a gun, made many arrests myself, former peace officer. I've been there. I've been thrown through drywall, I've fallen from a ceiling. Look, I understand all that stuff.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Here's the thing, though: I think your community needs to use David's approach. You know, the thing is that we know that punishment alone only increases re-offense rates. It's treatment and a balanced approach that's going to do it.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: You take Jimmy, the last caller. He brings up a very good point. The thing is, what Jimmy needed, was help. We need to be looking at alternatives to just mere punishment alone that deals with the underlying causes of why people do what they do. And that's what we'd done in our school system.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: I mean, I understand you want to lock them all up, but how can I go back to locking them all up when I have a 70 percent reduction in weapons on campus? I have a decline in juvenile crime in my county. Why would I want to go back to that? Because it works. It's just not working where you are because, for whatever reason, they're not using the right strategies.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's get another caller in. This is Josh(ph), Josh with us from Yukon, Oklahoma.</s>JOSH: Yes, how are you doing?</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: I'm well, thank you.</s>JOSH: First, let me just say it's kind of ironic I'm talking to a judge and an ex-parole officer. That was one of my goals, to stay away from that.</s>JOSH: I was charged with a possession of a firearm. The charge came from me actually using drugs. And I went to a one-year program that usually takes three years, and I finished it in one year. I did not completely complete the program, but it did teach me a lot of life lessons, and I'll take my comments off the air.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Okay, a lot of life lessons, have you stopped using?</s>JOSH: Yes, sir. I've been clean and sober for the last eight years. I got out in - I went in in '04, and that was the last time I used. And it really did make me realize the goals I had in front of me, as well as realizing even now I'm part of other school programs. One is called DOGS, D-O-G-S, Dads of Great Students, and even though I'm a convicted felon, some of the teachers know, and I've walked in, and there's been school fights right there in the front of the school, and I'll break it up.</s>JOSH: And principals will call me in and say hey, I've got a troubled youth. Would you mind coming in and talking to him? And I do, and I let them realize, you know, you're young. You've got your life in front of you.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Judge Teske, and Joshua promising not to use our call identification number and forward it to anybody. So don't worry about that. We appreciate the phone call.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: But Judge Teske, there's an experience of somebody who went to prison, and it - sometimes it works.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Well, yeah, sometimes it does work, and it's really a matter of the personalities as well. You know, I mean, it's like the old adage, you know, you get want you, you know, you put into it. You get out of it what you put into it. And some folks, they realize it, and they get it. But statistically speaking, though, that's not the case. I mean, we have, you know, this country incarcerates more people than any other country in the world. We have the highest re-offense rates, you know, in this country.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: You know, here in Georgia, we used to have boot camps for kids. We got rid of them because the re-offense rates were like 75 percent. Incarceration alone isn't going to do it. You can't just anecdotally, you know, measure things. You can't say, well, this worked for this person and say then it works for everybody. And I'm glad it worked for him, but I think it had a lot to do - I think it's to his credit, his personality, who he is and what he put into it and got out of it.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: You mentioned boot camps. The other approach that a lot of people tried was the scared straight approach. Again, good TV didn't seem to work.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: No, it didn't work. And I know there's been a recent pitch to bring it back. And I'm really saddened about that because I think it's - I can't remember who's doing that, and so I'm not going to take a chance of throwing some channels out there, you know? But the bottom line is is that it's a disservice to the public - getting - I call it politics of fear. You scare people enough, OK, into believing this whether it's for a vote to get elected or whatever the case may be.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: And all we're doing is lying not only to ourselves, we're lying to the public. And we're going down a road, and we're continuing to hurt ourselves and our kids.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: You talked about politics of fear. Zero tolerance, as you suggest, came up after Columbine. It's a good slogan for somebody running for office. Are you not vulnerable to somebody saying you are coddling criminals?</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Oh, absolutely. And I get that from time to time. You know, that's one nice thing about being a judge and wearing a robe, I have absolute immunity, and I have to have a thick skin. But be that as it may, the fact of the matter is I do believe in zero tolerance. I mean, I believe we've got to get out of the semantics here, OK? It's like, you know, this word or this word, the problem with zero tolerance the way it's used is that it's zero tolerance with everything. Zero tolerance was intended only for weapons and serious drugs, OK?</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: What's happened since then is that it is now being used in soft crimes, soft offenses, and as a result, what we're doing - the research shows this. If you take low-level offenses, you treat them like they're hardened criminals, you will make them hardened criminals. We are doing a disservice. We are actually creating criminals with this type of politics.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: We're talking with Judge Steve Teske of Clayton County Juvenile Court in - near Atlanta, Georgia, also David Kennedy, who's co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And, David Kennedy, the same question to you. For your program to work, you have to have obviously cooperation from the district attorney's office to not prosecute those cases or not pressure the police to prosecute those cases, the district attorneys tend to get elected. They like to have a lot of prosecutions.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: Well, the good ones want to have impact on the ground, and the good ones in a very nuts-and-bolts way would rather do what the judge is saying and focus their energies on serious offenses by serious people. They would rather differentiate. They would rather have priorities. And not all district attorneys like this idea. Some people will say straight out, you know, these people are heartless and incorrigible, and they won't change. And the fact is that they're wrong.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: And the record is very, very, very clear that these approaches not only keep people out of prison, which is very important as long as the public safety is served by it, but they are also much more effective at actually changing behavior, which is the point. The point of prison and everything that leads to prison is not to get people in prison. The point is to serve the public's safety. And what the neighborhoods that I am committed to are dealing with is both far too much crime and far too much imprisonment, and they feed on each other, just as the judge has said.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's get Brianna(ph) on the line. Brianna is with us from East Lansing.</s>BRIANNA: Hi. I was 16 when my daughter's father went to prison, and I was 15 when I had her. She was 8 months old. And he went to prison. He was in a gang locally, a small gang in Lansing, and probably committed a lot of petty crimes, drug-related crimes. He sold drugs. He finally got caught and charged with conspiracy to commit armed robbery and got four to 15 years in prison at 19 years - he was 19 years old. And it, obviously, led to me raising my daughter by myself, but it also set him up for failure because he didn't have an education when he went in. And, of course, he got his GED in prison. But he didn't know how to care of himself from that point on.</s>BRIANNA: He was in and out of the system - has been in and out of the system. My daughter is now 17, no relationship with her dad because she never had a chance. And it's my firm belief that had he been diverted into some kind of program like what you're talking about, you know, he could have gotten a sense of self and what his future could have been like. He could have - he grew up not seeing anything but crime.</s>BRIANNA: And had he understood that people were looking out for him and invested in him, I really believe he could have invested in his community, and he would have been involved in his daughter's life. And it would have changed her life, and probably for generations would have an impact.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And that's an illustration - Brianna, thanks very much for the story...</s>BRIANNA: (Unintelligible).</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: ...David Kennedy, of how one arrest can change a family. Many families make up a community. Many communities make up a city.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: That's exactly right. And the ripple effect of mass incarceration is toxic. The ripple effect of stop and frisk is toxic. The ripple effect of locking down neighborhoods in the name of protecting them is toxic. And the people who are doing it are good people. That's not the question. They are doing what they know how to do. They are following the logic that they understand. It's not ill-intentioned. And that part of the tragedy of it is that, you know, the folks who locked up the caller's boyfriend and her daughter's father would say - and they would mean it - that they were tying to protect that community. And they do not mean to cause this damage, and we are learning that we don't have to cause it.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: David Kennedy, professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, author of the book "Don't Shoot: One Man, A Street Fellowship, and the End of Violence in Inner-City America." Thanks very much for your time.</s>DAVID KENNEDY: Pleasure.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And our thanks as well to Steve Teske, Clayton County Juvenile Court judge. Appreciate your time, Judge. Thank you.</s>JUDGE STEVE TESKE: Thank you. Thank you.

As international forces prepare to leave Afghanistan, deep questions remain about the country's security and its government. Former NPR reporter Sarah Chayes lives part of the year there. She has served as special adviser to two commanders of NATO forces in Afghanistan, and Adm. Mike Mullen.

NEAL CONAN, HOST: As international forces prepare to leave Afghanistan, deep questions remain not only about the country's security, but also about its government. Former NPR reporter Sarah Chayes left journalism to start a small business in Kandahar. She now spends a good part of the year in Southern Afghanistan. She's also served as an adviser to commanders of NATO forces in Afghanistan and to a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.</s>If you have questions for Sarah Chayes, give us a call: 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org, click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>If you have questions for Sarah Chayes, give us a call: Sarah Chayes, nice to have you here in Studio 3A.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Great to be here, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And what did you tell the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?</s>SARAH CHAYES: Oh, boy. How long do we have?</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Not long enough, apparently.</s>SARAH CHAYES: It really has to do with governance, and it wasn't just him. I mean, I found from very early on that it was clear that Afghans were really looking forward, actually, in the early days, to the American intervention because they thought that we would help them re-establish a government that wasn't - that governed them, but not as a sort of religious extremist operation.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: The Taliban.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Correct. And we were quite interested in chasing Taliban and chasing al-Qaida and things like that, and that was our mission. And so we didn't pay very much attention to the other capacities and qualities of the people that we allied with in that mission. And so what we kind of did was played the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend kind of game.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And you know, the one thing the Taliban did that the Afghan population was really pleased with was kick out the warlords that had been making the place a chaotic mess and violent mess after the withdrawal of the Soviet Union in the late 1980s. And so of course these people were quite disgruntled at the Taliban for personal reasons, not because of how the Taliban governed, but because, you know, they didn't get their piece of the pie anymore. These were the folks that we allied with, and that might have made sense as a sort of short-term military expedience. But we then kind of ushered them into positions of power - in particular regional power. And then, all of a sudden, this became the Afghan government that we were here to support.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And in the first couple of years, it was interesting. I found most of the people that I interacted with kind of thought America must have a plan. So they were quite patient. I mean it was like, well, there must be a reason why they brought X, Y and Z back in to be our governors. And by about 2005, that patience was running out.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And I remember the only time I ever encountered a hostile interaction in Kandahar – right? - this the Taliban heartland, right? - was when we - it was, I think 2004 or '05, around that winter of 2004 to '05. We hadn't had electricity in about six months, and I had stopped to buy some vegetables. And this elderly gentleman came up to me positively shaking his fists. You know, I had never seen anybody shake their fists before. And he said, if you people can't turn on the electricity, what are you doing here?</s>SARAH CHAYES: And unfortunately, what's happened - in other words, it was very practical. And the frustration rose as practical grievances were not being addressed. But it wasn't primarily about stuff, like electricity. It was why is it that you are protecting people who are functioning increasingly like a mafia and are really treating Afghanistan as their private property and extracting resources for their personal gain? Why are you protecting them?</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, in Kandahar, you must have had experiences with the brother, the half-brother, of the president, who was Mr. Big there until he was murdered earlier this year.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Right. So in fact, I worked for his older half-brother, not the president, but the president's older full brother. So there was a period when I was in Ahmed Wali Karzai's house, you know, every night for dinner. And it took me a long time to catch on, I have to be honest. But within about two years - and so from about 2004 on, I really understood what was going on. And Mr. Big is exactly the right way to put it. In other words, there was quite a lot of publicity about his involvement in the narcotics industry, and I came to have enough evidence of that to convince myself by about 2005. But that's not the worst of it. I mean, on some level, the narcotics industry actually provide a livelihood for a lot of people. I know that sounds a bit, you know, utilitarian, but the problem was he was Mr. Big. Nothing could happen in the region that he didn't approve. And that meant land, it meant jobs, it meant business opportunities, it meant distribution of development resources, it meant everything. He got to pull those levers.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And what was interesting, was even as American officials began to understand this and try to at least interact with, quote, "tribal elders" and things like that, they nevertheless allowed him to filter those interactions. So you would have a senior American official, either military or civilian, go to Kandahar to meet some tribal elders. Well, they would ask Ahmed Wali to gather them a group of tribal elders. So they knew what they had to do. These tribal elders, they weren't free to actually speak their mind.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And it was interesting, one of the commanders that I worked for was going to have some meetings in Kandahar in 2009, late - early 2009. And he asked me to set them up. So I said - or I proposed that I would set them up. And so I actually spent a couple of weeks, you know, kind of going to ground to find out who were the real elders that people really trust and respect. And the effort that it took to organize these meetings without Ahmed Wali being present or being involved - and finally, he found out about one of them, and he sabotaged it by calling all the elders, or several of them, and telling them that the meeting had been transferred to his house.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And, you know, and he retaliated against some of them. It was really interesting. So we allowed him to monopolize, both the formal and informal structures of leadership in the area.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Well, just as we sometimes make the mistake of thinking all Afghans are the same, obviously they're not, all Americans are not the same either. There were some Americans who were saying, wait a minute, we can't be supporting this guy. He's a bad guy. And there were other Americans saying, wait a minute, we need him because, A, he provides security in Kandahar. He keeps it calm. Also, we're running a CIA-sponsored militia through his houses.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Right. And so what I would say is that the number of Americans who thought that we ought to address him in a more...</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Law enforcement sort of way.</s>SARAH CHAYES: ...thank you - we're not very numerous. And they were overridden by these considerations, short - basically short-term considerations. And that was one of the things I really learned over this decade that I've been involved in the conflict, is that institutions like to conduct operations. And so whatever their immediate mission is, they tend to sort of throw off all other considerations in order to achieve that immediate goal. There was another really interesting example, which was the - I don't know if you remember the military operations around Kandahar last fall, that were, you know, the focus of a lot of attention, and...</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Marjah, we remember, yes.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Marjah was Helmand, and that was the previous year. And then there was - it was called Operation Hamkari or something like that.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Oh, yes. Yeah.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Yeah. And so the guy who kind of led the charge is a corrupt, drug-dealing and murderous border police commander, who did a pretty good job with these operations. So we kind of turned him into a hero. This is a guy that I came across the border - not with him but with his men - back in 2001, so I've known the guy for a while. He stuffed the ballot boxes during the election. I mean, he was like the go-to guy for the Karzai mafia and doing a plenty of side work on his own.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And so we got into these situations where, wow, he was the man of the moment because he could conduct that immediate operation. But reinforcing him was reinforcing a system that overall is not something that the Afghan population is proud of, wants to live under or wants to defend. And for me, what was really interesting, having banged this drum for years to not a lot of - not no response, but not a lot of response - then suddenly in January, you get the Arab Spring.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And I actually traveled to North Africa for the month of March to, sort of, take a look at what was going on. The grievances in, you know, both revolution countries and countries that aren't yet revolution countries, like Morocco or Algeria - I didn't go to Libya - Tunisia, Egypt, were identical grievances. It was about state capture by what amounts to criminal enterprises that are often organized around family lines like the Ben Ali clan in Tunisia or whatever.</s>SARAH CHAYES: But it was state capture of the resources, of the judicial system, by what passed, or what was, sort of, masquerading as a government. And so I felt, wow, finally, you know, the American government is going to get it that this is the same thing that's infuriating the Afghan population. But I haven't really seen that connection get made.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Sarah Chayes is with us, a former NPR reporter who's spent much of the past 10 years in Afghanistan. And if you would like to talk with her, 800-989-8255. Email: talk@npr.org. Jim's on the line, calling from Fort Collins in Colorado.</s>JIM: Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my call. Very interesting what you're talking about. My son is in Afghanistan with special operations. He is a civil affairs specialist. And he talks about a thing called VSO, Village Stability Operations. And I'm wondering if your guest can tell us a little bit more about what that is and how that works. Thank you very much.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Pleasure.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Thanks for the call.</s>SARAH CHAYES: VSO is the latest iteration of an idea that NATO and the United States forces have tried to launch in Afghanistan for a number of years. And the notion is, we don't have the time or the personnel or the money, frankly, to properly train and equip the police and the army, as much police and army as we actually need to secure the country. There's also this notion that Afghans are really very independent people and don't actually want a government any way, which is an idea that I contest, incidentally. And so why don't we just give an abbreviated training and some oversight, particularly by Special Forces, to local village, basically militias, that allegedly will protect themselves.</s>SARAH CHAYES: I found this idea - for a long time, I have found this to be a dangerous idea, because what Afghanistan has suffered from since the withdrawal of the Soviet Union has been centrifugal force. It's been flying apart, and it has suffered from, you know, kind of infighting among poorly organized, disciplined, and supervised armed groups.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And so the notion that you - it's almost like injecting a recovering patient with the same virus of the, you know, or the same bacteria that he or she was suffering from. And I've had a chance to kind of follow some of the activities of Village Stability Operations around Kandahar. So, again, politics is local, and I can't speak for the whole country. But I've just seen it getting derailed all over the place.</s>SARAH CHAYES: For example, one that's famous for being a good one is in a district just north of Kandahar. And it's supposed to be, you know, the village itself. But because none of the other villages in the - or few other villages in the district actually want to participate in the program, what's happened is the armed guys, the militia guys from one village are now being deployed in other villages. Well, that was never supposed to happen, and the reason why not is because you're more likely to prey on people who are not your cousins and your in-laws and things like that. So they have started taking ad hoc taxes and stealing firewood and stealing fruit from the villages where they're now deployed. That's just one example of how it can go off the rails.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Our guest is Sarah Chayes. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Email question from Matt, has your opinion of Sherzai changed since you wrote "Punishment of Virtue"?</s>SARAH CHAYES: Ah, gentle reader. To be honest, I haven't been in the same province with Governor Sherzai for a while, because he got moved from Kandahar to a - an eastern province, also on the border, called Nangarhar. What I do know is that he continues to make a killing off of customs revenues that belong to the Afghan state because what happens is there's your regular customs tax, and then there is something called a reconstruction tax, which goes into Governor Sherzai's pockets. Naturally, he's supposed to spend it on reconstruction of his province, and he does spend some of it on that. But there's no accountability mechanism, what is he bringing in and what is he spending - how much is he spending on what.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And then there is this other tax that he claimed that he had cancelled, but I went to the border to visit. This was two years ago. I went to the - his border to visit. And it's an overweight tax, which is basically you drive your truck onto a scale and depending on what you look like, your truck is overweight or not. So what I do know is that, you know, that's an example of him not really functioning as a productive member of the Afghan government.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Let's get Dennis on the line. Dennis with us from Vail in Colorado.</s>DENNIS: Yes. I always remember seeing Sarah Chayes in a program a number of years ago that featured her after her reporting days donning male garb and dealing with male elders. And I felt this to be a dangerous thing to do in Afghanistan and have wondered ever since how you kept yourself safe.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: This is when you'd set up the co-op.</s>SARAH CHAYES: Yeah. Well, no. This was a documentary, and Gul Agha Sherzai, the governor that the previous question referred to, features in this documentary. And we were rebuilding a village, actually. This was an NGO prior to my skincare factory, which I think we'll talk about shortly. But - so I'm still alive...</s>SARAH CHAYES: ...and kicking. And I actually thought about this question a lot. You'll think that it took me a while to start thinking about it. I started thinking about it in late 2006 when another former Special Forces officer asked me very persistently about how I stayed alive. And he asked me persistently enough that he really obliged me to think about it.</s>SARAH CHAYES: And so I'm going to answer you in two parts. The dressing in male garb and interactions with ordinary Afghans, that was never a problem. And the person that you want to be in a place like Kandahar, Afghanistan is a foreign female because as such, you're kind of both genders. You get to play guys with the guys, and you are physically a female, so you actually get to sit down and talk to women, which men can't. As a matter of fact, I've had a woman during that period, when - that the caller is referring to, who actually stuck her hand down the front of my - of that garb you were talking about to make sure that I had two of those things in there.</s>SARAH CHAYES: But the more serious issue on safety that really took a while to figure out is that this is a retaliation society. It's like mutually assured destruction. And the point is you would think that as an American, I'd be at more risk. And I actually found when I looked at who was getting hit in Kandahar, it actually was people who were more neutral in more - from organizations that are seen to be more neutral, like the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, or Doctors Without Borders. But the notion, you know, what I felt was that people were afraid of potential retaliation. And so, in fact, my connection with America made me safer, not less safe.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: And you've left yourself 20 seconds to talk about your skincare factory.</s>SARAH CHAYES: You're kidding. So this is - it's a - alternative livelihood's projects that - look. Go on the website. It's arghand.org. It's skincare products from Southern Afghanistan, locally produced – licit, might I add - agriculture, and it's just great stuff. And this is the kind of thing that can conceivably represent a different type of development strategy.</s>NEAL CONAN, HOST: Sarah Chayes, thanks very much. Monday in this hour, P. J. O'Rourke. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

The Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus no longer uses elephants in its shows. The animals are heading for retirement in Florida. But their work isn't done yet.

MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Move over, snowbirds. The divas are the hottest new retirees in Florida. Divas - that's what Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey calls its female elephants who are done performing. As Crystal Chavez reports from member station WMFE, Ringling's last touring elephants have arrived at their sunny Florida retirement home.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: Ringling held a circus-like show for media to honor its retiring elephants at its 200-acre farm near Orlando.</s>UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I'd like to thank you guys for coming out today for this epic event, the biggest event here at our Ringling Bros...</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: A line of massive elephants trots out in formation, trunk to tail, to a Thanksgiving-like table full of bread, carrots, lettuce and apples. And then they chow down.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: These divas are high maintenance. They get regular manicures and eat up to 250 pounds of food a day. Ringling says it costs $65,000 a year per elephant to care for them. About 40 endangered Asian elephants now call central Florida home, the largest herd in the Western Hemisphere. This group caught the attention of Dr. Joshua Schiffman. He cares for children with cancer in Salt Lake City. Elephants rarely get cancer.</s>JOSHUA SCHIFFMAN: For me, then a lightbulb went off in my head.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: So doctors partnered with Ringling to get elephant blood samples. They're taken anyway as part of the animals' veterinary care. By studying elephant DNA, Schiffman found they have way more copies of a specific gene that he believes helps suppress cancer in elephants.</s>JOSHUA SCHIFFMAN: After 55 million years of evolution, elephants, these amazing creatures wandering around here at the Center for Elephant Conservation, they have figured out how to avoid cancer. Now it's our turn as humans to try to learn from these elephants.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: So the elephants are no longer forced to twirl under the big top, and they're helping to find a cure for cancer. All's rosy for Ringling, right?</s>RACHEL MATHEWS: Absolutely not.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: That's Rachel Mathews with PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.</s>RACHEL MATHEWS: It does not outweigh the fact that these animals are - have been exploited for their entire lives, and even in so-called retirement, Ringling continues to find ways to exploit them.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: Mathews says these elephants are not going into true retirement. Ringling chains its elephants at night and still uses electric prods. Animal activists would rather the elephants go to accredited sanctuaries with thousands of acres to roam. As for Ringling, they plan to keep their elephants right where they are. After all, they've been a part of the family for 145 years.</s>CRYSTAL CHAVEZ, BYLINE: For NPR News, I'm Crystal Chavez in Orlando.

The New York City public schools recently sparked controversy with a new sex education curriculum that critics complain is too explicit. New York, and many other school districts, relies on curricula designed by outside experts. Guests talk about who decides what's included, and what's left out. Nora Gelperin, director of training and education, Answer Dr. Diane Foley, pediatrician and director of Education for a Lifetime

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan, in Washington. And before we begin, a word of warning: We're about to start a conversation on sex education that will include mention of body parts and practices.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There are few educational issues that are more controversial. In New York City, public schools are about to start a new curriculum that some complain is too explicit. In some places, classes focus on abstinence until marriage. Others discuss oral sex, and teach kids how to use condoms.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: There is, in fact, a range of programs that are often adjusted by local school boards. So when you're in the classroom, how do they actually differ? Parents, teachers, what should be taught? Who should teach it? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Later in the program, cautious optimism as change begins in Myanmar. But first, sex education, and we begin with Nora Gelperin. She's director of training at Answer, an organization that promotes comprehensive sexuality education - based at Rutgers University. She trains educators nationwide to teach all types of sex education curricula, and joins us now from a studio in Piscataway, New Jersey. Nice to have you with us.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Thanks so much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And help us understand. What kinds of sex ed curricula can schools choose from?</s>NORA GELPERIN: There's quite a range, from abstinence-only-until-marriage programs, which have rarely shown to be effective; to comprehensive sexuality education, which is age appropriate and medically accurate, and implemented across the grade spans of kindergarten through 12th grade. So quite a range.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And as I understand, there are different companies, like textbook companies that have - well, offer different curricula.</s>NORA GELPERIN: That's true. There's many different nonprofit organizations that promote various curriculum that are available. Some are evidence-based. Some are evidence-informed. Many of them are infused into the school day by the individual teacher - or the districts - that figures out what's best for their students.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And you work with teachers to teach whatever curricula their local school board, or their state, mandates, right?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Exactly. So the state board of education decides what's the policy at the state level, and then the individual districts decide, based - what's in compliance with their state policy, what's going to be in best interest of their young people. So it goes - a tiered effect, from the state down to the local districts.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And obviously, this varies from - you know, it's quite different, say, in Louisiana or New York.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely. The policies really range. Only about 35 states mandate comprehensive sexuality education, or HIV-STD prevention. Some of them don't require it at all. So it's left up to the discretion of the local district - or actually, sometimes teacher to teacher.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And in some cases, you are prohibited from discussing abortion.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely. So the state of Michigan is a good example. They're prohibited from discussing that term or that concept at all. Actually, sometimes there can be financial penalties if they do versus, like a state - here in New Jersey - that is actually required to teach about pregnancy options, including abortion, in high school.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In high school and obviously, these lessons can vary as - whether they're taught in middle school or high school.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Right, absolutely. So middle-schoolers need different information than high-schoolers do. Obviously, that's much more age appropriate, relevant to where they are in their lives and developmentally appropriate as well, versus high school students, which need something different - whether they're sexually active in high school, or looking toward the future.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And language - I mean, is the language in different curricula different? I mean, in some cases, do they use clinical terms? In other cases, do they tend more towards - well, expressions that the kids in class might be more familiar with?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely. So we at Answer really promote and recommend that schools adopt curriculum that are medically accurate and using the scientifically correct terms. Sometimes what also happens is, a teacher really struggles that her students or his students know a different set of terms than what is medically accurate. So they struggle with the street terms, or the slang. So we really encourage teachers to make sure that their students are aware of what the medically accurate terms are, and make sure to use those in their teaching.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And obviously, sometimes students are uncomfortable with language and can giggle. Obviously, sometimes teachers can be uncomfortable with the language, too.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely, that's so true.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Who are the teachers?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Typically in a school district, you might have a range. Typically, it's a health and physical education teacher who's implementing comprehensive sexuality education. Sometimes, it might be a biology teacher or a science teacher. Rarely, we might see implementation done by a guidance counselor or social worker; sometimes even a school nurse, if we're talking about elementary schools.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And they can run into conflicts, too. Somebody who might believe, for example, in a comprehensive program might be required by their school or their state to teach something else, and vice versa.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Definitely. So sometimes health professionals might have their own religious or moral beliefs, which might be in contradiction with the curriculum that they're required to implement. We definitely have those professionals in our workshops, and we work with them about ways that they might be able to accommodate their own beliefs.</s>NORA GELPERIN: But typically, school districts really are in alignment with what Answer believes, which is that young people deserve medically accurate and complete information so they can make healthy choices in their lives.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We want to get some callers in on the conversation. We want to hear from parents and teachers today. What should be taught in your child's sex education classes, and who should teach it; 800-989-8255, email us, talk@npr.org. We'll start with Peter, and Peter's on the line from Berkeley.</s>PETER: Hi, thanks for this topic. My contribution I wanted to make was bringing up the advisability of having a checklist for healthy relationships so that young people, as well as older people, can match up their expectations of what they expect out of this relationship before they get into it, and how important that is psychologically - because I think, you know, teenagers are, like the rest of us, often very romantic around sex.</s>PETER: And just having some feet-on-the-ground criteria to go through to discuss before they jump into bed with somebody and get emotionally bonded, as often can happen, it would be a very, very great contribution, in addition to physical sex education.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nora Gelperin, is that taught in - in what kinds of classes is that taught?</s>NORA GELPERIN: It's a terrific question, and I think what's so wonderful is to think beyond the physicality of sexuality education. We know sexuality is complex, and what young people really crave is to talk about the emotions that come along with relationships and sexual behaviors, not just the plumbing.</s>NORA GELPERIN: So at sexetcetera.org, our teen website, we really hear from the 5,000 young people every day who are looking for just that kind of information your caller suggested - some criteria by which to base their actual lived experiences on what's healthy or not as healthy.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But are there any programs that would skip that?</s>NORA GELPERIN: There might be. If some have an exclusive focus just on abstinence only until marriage, or just on HIV or STD prevention, they might not have the time, the luxury of time, to talk about things in a positive way, like healthy relationships or positive body image - or even things like media literacy, navigating technology, preventing sexting. All of these topics are of critical importance but often get shortchanged when we focus exclusively on health outcomes.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Peter, thanks very much for the call.</s>PETER: Here, here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You raised the question of time. How much time is devoted in schools, typically? - and let's just say high schools, for example. This would vary. I mean, there may be a health class of which sex ed may be a part, but so would be other things, including phys ed and obesity, for example.</s>NORA GELPERIN: That's true, Neal. And too often, what we hear from young people is sexuality education is too little and too late. There are just a few, precious hours to cover all of health education, of which sexuality education is one, small piece. And what we hear time and again, from both our health teachers and our young people, on sexetcetera.org is that it's just too little, too late, and they crave more.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Antoine(ph) in Oakland, California: I do not want, under any circumstances, to have teachers or experts on any level teaching sexual behavior to my children. Teaching behavior is a license to practice. Teaching about diseases that go along with casual sex or health-related talk, I am fine with, but I do not want it to go any further than that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: California, I note, does not require sexual education.</s>NORA GELPERIN: That's right, and I think that the writer has really identified a very common concern we hear from parents. They worry that talking about information is harmful when really, decades of research has shown us that actually, talking about information is helpful, not harmful. It's not giving directions; it's giving realistic, reality-based information about how to protect yourself, both now</s>NORA GELPERIN: and into the future.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, that's an argument for, and there's a time and place for that. But as a practical matter, does he have an alternative? Are there - is he - can he opt in or out for his child?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely. So every parent, no matter the topic area, is always given the right to opt their child out of any topic area that they deem in conflict with their strongly held moral or religious beliefs. So he as a parent, if he felt strongly that the local curriculum was in conflict with his beliefs, could approach the health teacher in the district and choose to remove his child from that portion of instruction.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Tina, and Tina's on the line from San Antonio.</s>TINA: Hi. I was a teenage mother, and I also now have a teenager. So what I have taught my daughter, starting from very young - about 7 - just the basics, and I always built on it. And building on it over the years helps us to become comfortable with all of the terms.</s>TINA: But I tell her now, as a teenager, that the best thing is for me to give her all the information that's out there so she can make the best decisions for herself. And I think that that should be what the school should do also - without the emotional portion of what sex</s>TINA: education is, put into the curriculum, but with space for that when students need someplace to talk about it - because not everybody parents the way I do.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Yeah, no, I understand that. Do you know what she does learn in high school?</s>TINA: Yes, actually, I do. She has a really open-minded health teacher who was a teen parent, and they watch videos. They do learn all of the anatomical, but they also deal with some emotion also, as well.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK, thanks very much for the call. We wish you the best of luck.</s>TINA: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK, the - as we get down to the relationship with the parents, obviously, parents can help school districts. Sometimes, they serve on the boards that advise school districts on what kind of sex education package to pick up, or to teach. But they also, I would assume, all of these classes say, talk to your mom and dad.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely, Neal. Parents and schools must work together. Parents play a critical role. They're the most important sexuality educator to provide the values, the family culture, all of those pieces that schools cannot provide. But what parents tell us is they want help, they want support.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Schools and health professionals are trained to deliver sexuality education. They have the knowledge and the expertise. So they must work together.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Meadow in Sacramento. No matter what program is taught, abstinence instruction needs to be given to students as an option. Teaching women and men that they do not have to engage in sex empowers them to control what happens to their bodies. When we don't present abstinence as an option to our young women, we are keeping that power from them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Abstinence as an option - is that commonly taught in all of these different programs?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely. It's one of the central tenets of all responsible sexuality education. I think there's a misunderstanding that comprehensive sex ed skips abstinence, but it's absolutely at the forefront, and I couldn't agree with your caller any more.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, stay with us if you would. We're talking about what schools teach about sex. Parents, teachers, what should be taught? Who should teach it; 800-989-8255 is the phone number. You can also drop us an email. The address: talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. We're talking today about sex ed. Policies on what to teach, and what not to, vary from state to state. Fewer than half mandate any sex ed at all. More require education on HIV and STDs. Some prohibit any discussion of abortion, while others cover detailed methods of contraception.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You can find a link to a chart that shows how each state handles these issues. Go to npr.org, and click on TALK OF THE NATION. Parents, teachers, what should be taught? Do you want discussions about homosexuality or sexting? And who should teach it; 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Our guest is Nora Gelperin, director of training and education at Answer, a national organization that promotes comprehensive sexuality education. And joining us now is Dr. Diane Foley, a pediatrician who specializes in adolescent gynecology. She's director of Education for a Lifetime, which is a nonprofit organization that focuses on abstinence in Colorado Springs Public Schools, and joins us now by phone from her home there in Colorado Springs. Nice to have you with us today.</s>DIANE FOLEY: Thank you so much, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And clarify for us, if you will: As I understand it, there are different kinds of programs that describe themselves with the word abstinence.</s>DIANE FOLEY: Yes, there are, and I think that that's one important fact that has come out already in the program - is that I think it's very important for parents to find out exactly what's being taught in their own schools because as has already been mentioned, most local school districts are the ones who make the choice about which curricula are used and how it's taught, actually, in their own school districts.</s>DIANE FOLEY: And so you can't make an assumption by hearing that this is a comprehensive program, or this is an abstinence program, and know exactly what's being taught in your own school.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: For example, I gather there's something called abstinence-plus.</s>DIANE FOLEY: Well, I agree, and I think sometimes the terminology is a little bit confusing. And so I think it's important, again, that parents are able to look at that curriculum and see exactly what is being taught.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, your program - an abstinence-only program, is that accurate?</s>DIANE FOLEY: No, our program is actually - we actually refer to this as a sexual risk-avoidance program. And the reason it's that way is because we know that teenagers are going to be involved in high-risk behavior, and we know that the healthiest choice for them is to avoid that high-risk behavior. And we know that a lot of these behaviors are related to each other. And so we teach them that the healthiest choice for them, again, is to avoid that behavior.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: To avoid that behavior. In the event they do not, do you teach birth control?</s>DIANE FOLEY: Yes, we do, and we - that's another one of the misconceptions that is out there about programs that are called abstinence only, that they aren't supposedly allowed to teach about contraception. But that's not true. And in fact, we agree that teenagers deserve to have medically accurate and complete information given to them about this area. And so these programs - and again, that's important.</s>DIANE FOLEY: So our particular program does teach about contraception as a part of the whole message that is given; that there is a risk avoidance, and there's also a way to reduce your risk if you are involved sexually.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And then there are other sexual behaviors that are also controversial. Does your program address homosexuality, transgender, that sort of thing?</s>DIANE FOLEY: We address that simply from the standpoint that the risks are the same in those programs. It depends on the particular school district as to how, specifically, you can address each of those issues. And so for the most part, they are not dealt with other than to explain that the risk behaviors for the type of sex that you're having increase with the number of partners that you have.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Nora Gelperin, I wanted to bring you in. There are, as I understand it, a number of programs around the country that are what they describe as LGBTQ biased. What does that mean?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Sure, so some - actually, state laws require that there is a negative bias perpetuated through sexuality education. So for example, it must be stated that it's not an acceptable lifestyle, in some states. That's, literally, lifted from the laws. It - there sometimes is misinformation perpetuated that people who are gay or bisexual may have higher rates of HIV, which we know is actually, also incorrect.</s>NORA GELPERIN: So it's really damaging to young people, and to young people who have family members who are LGBTQ, to have some of these biases exist in our state laws.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Diane Foley, this is - there's scarcely anything that is more controversial.</s>DIANE FOLEY: Right, that's right, and I think that again, parents need to know what's being taught in their local areas, and it's very important that what is being taught is being taught by people who are credible and actually have medical information that is accurate for them.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: OK, let's see if we can get another caller in on the conversation. Let's go to Mike(ph), and Mike's with us from Miami.</s>MIKE: Thank you. I just wanted to remind the folks who were concerned about their middle-schoolers that your children grow up fast, and when they are turning in college applications, you may wish that they had even more sex education.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And do you know what your kids received, what they were taught?</s>MIKE: Well, fortunately, my wife is a nurse. We have two daughters. And the education was comprehensive. And - but still, I wasn't part of it, being the dad, and so I still have a little bit of fear if the kids move out, you know, was there something else? It's human nature, I think.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: All right, Mike, thanks very much for the call. Here's an email we have from Sara(ph): When I was going through sex ed, no one ever mentioned rape or sexual assault. I think it would be crucial for this conversation to be introduced to both boys and girls candidly and early. Dr. Foley, is it discussed there in Colorado Springs?</s>DIANE FOLEY: Yes, it is. Actually, a big part of our program talks about recognizing healthy and unhealthy relationships and actually, gives the students the warning signs for - particularly, dating violence and date rape, but also gives them listing of things that they are to do should they be involved in a rape themselves, and numbers to call with the other organizations that we work with here in our city.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Nora Gelperin, I understand, for example, the one - the curriculum in New York City that's about to get under way in the second semester of this year includes tactics for avoidance, if that's what you want.</s>NORA GELPERIN: Absolutely, and I think strategies for young people to prevent and delay sexual behavior is critical, understanding community resources and most particularly, giving them the skills that they need to be healthy. And that's all part of the New York City curriculum. It's a terrific one.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Laurie(ph) in Palo Alto: Is high school too late to be discussing sex? I'm wondering if age-appropriate content for middle-schoolers needs to be more comprehensive. What's the reality of sexual activity within that really young age group? Dr. Foley?</s>DIANE FOLEY: Well, I do think that age-appropriate discussion needs to be there and in fact, when we have middle school - as well as high school - programs, and when we're in the high school, a lot of times what we hear from students is: Where were you last year?</s>DIANE FOLEY: And I think I see this even more so in my private practice, where I deal with adolescents that come in with questions about sexual activity. And the information that is out there, they certainly are exposed to it much younger than high school - in our media and other things. And so that discussion is - that's a good place to have that, in a younger age group as well.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You raise an interesting question about media. It's been a long time since boys, you know, tittered over Playboy magazine. There are far more explicit options available on the Internet. Nora Gelperin, do sex education classes at any range of these - in this wide range, do they deal with what's available on the Internet - what's healthy, what's not?</s>NORA GELPERIN: I think that's a central component of any quality program. Unfortunately, the reality is that many programs don't have the luxury of time to cover these really critical issues, which is why we need to elevate the importance of sexuality education so they're given more time.</s>NORA GELPERIN: But you're right - a lot of the images that a lot of young people see on the Internet, in the media, are very confusing. And if they don't have these conversations at home, or at school, to get reality-based sexuality education, our young people suffer.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Dr. Foley, I wanted to ask you about that. Obviously, this is a world in which sexting is a reality, and this is not something that most parents have any experience with whatsoever.</s>DIANE FOLEY: Right. And again, some of it depends on how your curriculum is accepted in the school, and how much time you are given. But we have the opportunity to be able to introduce the concept of sexting - and the kids already know about it - but really, to help them understand the significant ramifications that can occur, particularly depending on what state you're in, that it's considered - it could be students that send pictures of themselves can actually be charged with significant crimes as a result of that.</s>DIANE FOLEY: And they really tend to look at it as a very harmless activity, and they don't really understand that. So that's a big part of the education that needs to happen.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Sharon(ph), Sharon on the line with us from Redwood City in California.</s>SHARON: Yes, hi. I have two teenage girls in high school, and I honestly believe this has to be taught in the schools because we don't know what's being taught at home. And my girls came through a junior high and a high school that have pregnant schools in them.</s>SHARON: Sometimes, in junior high, the girls don't know how they got that way. They're just following what feels good. So they need to have the information. It needs to be taught by people who are well-educated and open. I want them to know that everything is OK if it's not abusive and that a loving, monogamous, respectful relationship is a good thing.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And thank you very much for the call, Sharon - and two girls in high school, good luck.</s>SHARON: Thank you so much. I need it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I wonder, Dr. Foley, what percentage of parents decide to opt out?</s>DIANE FOLEY: A very small percentage in our community. I think that - I mean, it would depend - it depends school by school, but certainly, less than 5 percent of the parents opt out of this type of education when we're there.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Nora Gelperin, do you get feedback from the teachers that you talk to, about what kind of percentages they encounter?</s>NORA GELPERIN: I would agree with Diane. That's about the rates that we're hearing out of a class of about 25 to 30 kids. Our teachers tell us it's maybe one or two students. Unfortunately, what happens is the parents that have concerns, even though nine out of 10 parents in the United States support and want their kids to have comprehensive sexuality education, it's the small, vocal minority that can sometimes instill the fear of controversy in our administrators and our elected officials and therefore, programs can be changed as a result.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Gene: I want to share a very smart way I encountered last month, when I visited Lincoln Elementary in Washington State. A student in a higher grade was given a computer-program toy baby to care for, for 24 hours. That means the baby would cry in the middle of the night, so the student had to get up, figuring if the baby needed to be fed or changed diaper. This taught the students that sex takes great responsibility, and not just an impulse action or just fun. Is that a technique that's taught in some programs, Nora Gelperin?</s>NORA GELPERIN: It is. It's called a Baby Think It Over doll, and there was certainly a lot of enthusiasm about this program. I think that writer really has hit the nail on the head. It's important that young people have a taste of reality and understand the reality of the importance of responsibility coming along with any decision connected to sexuality. That particular program hasn't been shown to be very effective, so we want to make sure that any program that goes into - impact young people is based in evidence and is shown to be effective.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Do you use that in Colorado Springs, Dr. Foley?</s>DIANE FOLEY: It is not used as part of our program. I know that some of the health classes do use it, but it's not considered part of what we do. One my concerns is that we recognize that the consequences of teens starting to have sex are much more than just getting pregnant or getting a sexually transmitted infection. And I think it's important that the emotional consequences are discussed with them, if there are mental consequences that can occur, and helping them to make a healthy choice. They need to understand that it goes beyond just getting a sexually transmitted disease or getting pregnant.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Dr. Diane Foley is a pediatrician and director of Education for a Lifetime, a nonprofit organization that teaches sexual risk-avoidance education in public schools in Colorado Springs. Also with us is Nora Gelperin, director of training and education at Answer, a national organization that promotes comprehensive sexuality education. She's with us from Piscataway, New Jersey, and the campus at Rutgers University. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And here's an email from Marjorie in Ann Arbor: Many years ago, in the 1960s, I had sex ed. Later, when I was pregnant, I realized I knew nothing about getting un-pregnant, i.e. delivery and labor. It was a very scary void. I hope sex ed goes beyond the medical terms, the mechanics, even the ethics, but goes all the way through the birth process and the work involved in raising a baby. Nora Gelperin, is that part of different kinds of programs?</s>NORA GELPERIN: Certainly. In New Jersey, it is. There's a lot of emphasis placed on a healthy pregnancy, prenatal care, the importance of parenting. I think that's another area where we don't do a very good job of helping young people realize what goes into being a healthy, productive parent. So certainly, in the states that have more progressive policies, that would be part of it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And is it part of it in Colorado Springs?</s>DIANE FOLEY: Yes, it is. And one of the things that we also focus on is, we really look at teen fathers because a lot of times, the only - that we tend to focus on the teenage girls that are pregnant without really looking at the ways it affects young men as well - as becoming teen fathers. And so it's a big part of what we teach.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And let's get Christina on the line. She's with us from St. Cloud, in Florida.</s>CHRISTINA: Yes. Hi. I'm more concerned - I've been an health educator for quite a few years, and what I was teaching in middle and high school was, actually, abstinence. And I also have teenagers in my home. And I think one of the points that had been missed throughout the entire sex education programs, or abstinence programs, is to do it comprehensive, because they have to make right choices in general. That's the only way that we're going to raise children and kids that are actually able to take care of themselves and their own kids.</s>CHRISTINA: It's not just about sex. You have to include drugs. You have to include alcohol, cigarettes, every risky behavior that they can encounter. And when you kind of separate the sex from the entire purpose, it's just defeated. You know, you have to teach everything. It has to be a one - it's one ball. You cannot separate the choices that they made in regards to alcohol or drugs, or the ones that they do with regards to sex, you know? So I think it's very important that they just do, like, a whole theme for them to make the right choices in every sense.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And when you were teaching it, Christina, were you able to include those other risky behaviors?</s>CHRISTINA: I did in every lesson. And the important thing about that, we did here Florida - unfortunately, we don't have the funds anymore - we started in fifth grade. So of course, in fifth grade, we did not talk about sex. But we talk about responsibility, discipline, making the right choices on friendships, on school work. So that's doing the, you know, the basics. It's a nice foundation. So at the time that they start going out, going to middle school, includes bullying and all that. It just give them all the tools that they're going to need in order to make the right choices in everything.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nora Gelperin, that means even less time devoted to - yes, those things are important, too. I'm not denying that for a second, but it takes up time.</s>NORA GELPERIN: It does. But I think Christina has an excellent point - that really, the skills to keep a young person healthy around sexual risk avoidance and postponement are the same skills that come into play to help a young person stay healthy around not using drugs, substance abuse, obesity prevention. All those same kind of health skills are interconnected. And so it's so terrific to hear about a program that Christina's mentioning that really, weaves them together, because we don't operate sexually in a vacuum. There's so much context to our lives.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nora Gelperin, thanks very much for your time today. We appreciate it.</s>NORA GELPERIN: My pleasure.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Again, Nora Gelperin is director of training for Answer, a national sexuality education organization based at Rutgers, and joined us today from a studio there. Dr. Foley, appreciate your time as well.</s>DIANE FOLEY: Thank you so much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Diane Foley, a pediatrician and director of Education for a Lifetime, a nonprofit that focuses on abstinence education in Colorado Springs, joined us by phone from her home there. Coming up: signs of change in Myanmar, and plenty of skepticism, too. We'll talk to a reporter recently back from that country, which is, of course, also known as Burma. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan, TALK OF THE NATION, NPR News.

Before a coroner's report confirmed Amy Winehouse drank herself to death, her mother said she long felt it was "only a matter of time." Dr. Terry Schneekloth of the Mayo Clinic and author David Sheff talk about difficult choices people face when they deal with loved ones suffering from addictions.

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Last week, a coroner's report provided the details of a verdict that everyone already knew. Singer Amy Winehouse drank herself to death. Her blood alcohol content was five times the legal limit when she was found in her London home in July.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Her mother told reporters she long felt it was only a matter of time, a phrase that may resonate with those of us whose adult friends or loved ones face serious problems with drugs and alcohol. What can you do to help? Can help become counterproductive? Is there a time to cut off support?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If this is your story, give us a call. Our phone number is 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Later in the program, Jordan Tama argues in defense of the backroom deal as the clock counts down on the congressional supercommittee.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Bur first, David Sheff, who told his story in the book "Beautiful Boy: A Father's Journey Through His Son's Addiction." And he joins us from member station KQED in San Francisco. Nice to have you with us today.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Thank you, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And have - did you ever worry about your son Nick, that it was just a matter of time?</s>DAVID SHEFF: Oh God, yeah, for years. It was a matter of time for years. So you know, when you hear about something like Amy Winehouse, everyone else - I mean, there's a lot of celebrity watchers who sort of treat it as entertainment but, you know, when anybody who's been through it hears it, it just breaks our heart.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And how is your son doing?</s>DAVID SHEFF: You know, he's doing great. He's been sober for - I guess it's been about four years. He got married this summer. I mean, all these things that were unthinkable when he was, you know, in his early 20s, and we didn't know if he was going to survive.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: You wrote a book. He wrote a book, too, about his meth habit.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Yeah, he did. You know, he was - growing up, he was a really good writer and at one point, you know, he was asked, you know, to tell his story, and he did, and it was a pretty powerful book. It was - you know, for a father to read about the horrible, horrible experiences my son went through, is - you know, it was just unbearable.</s>DAVID SHEFF: But, you know, the book actually has - you know, from what I've heard, you know, it's touched a lot of people, especially teenagers, and he's been speaking at high schools. And I think it's been pretty remarkable that, you know, kids will write or call and say that - or parents will tell me that, you know, after a conversation with Nick, they've - you know, their child has told them that they've been in trouble, or a principal has said that, and they've ended up going into treatment.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Going into treatment - Nick was in and out of rehab.</s>DAVID SHEFF: He was in and out of rehab - oh God, what is it? Seven or eight times; inpatient programs, outpatient programs. And then in addition to that, you know, sober living houses, halfway houses. You know, it was about five, six, maybe even seven years of hell.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hell - I don't think that's too strong a word.</s>DAVID SHEFF: It's not. You know, any - but it's - I think it's one of our biggest fears. You know, I mean, any parent, you know, we just worry about our kids so much, and there's so much to worry about. And I think, you know, drugs is sort of up there and probably number one - if not, you know, number one or number two - because, you know, it's - you know, it's so pervasive.</s>DAVID SHEFF: You know, there's so many mixed messages. It's so confusing for kids. It's really confusing for adults. We just, you know, don't know how to navigate this whole thing.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And it gets so much harder. It's your child, but once he's 18, there's not much you can do.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Yeah, by the time I sort of figured out what was going on; that, you know, how serious this problem was and how, you know, Nick really, really, you know, could have easily died; he had turned 18. And you know, before that, you know, a parent has more ability to make choices for their child - I mean, to get him into rehab.</s>DAVID SHEFF: And after that, though, you know, Nick had to walk in of his own volition. He had to sign the papers and, you know, anybody who's high or anybody who's using drugs and, you know, anybody who's addicted, you know, that's not what they want to do. I mean, they have every reason to avoid that at all cost.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And then there is the question of, he's your son. Do you support him? Obviously, emotionally yes, but financially?</s>DAVID SHEFF: Well, that - you know, that was hard for me, and I think it's hard for anybody because, you know, it's sort of - I don't know. There's sort of these mixed messages and certainly, there's conflicting emotions. I mean, you know, it's our kid. You know, Nick was out there on the streets. He was in - you know, he was beaten up. He ended up, you know - they almost had to cut his arm off in a hospital because his arm was infected.</s>DAVID SHEFF: He was in emergency rooms. I got a call once from a doctor who told me, you know, Mr. Sheff, you'd better get down here; we don't know if he's going to make it. So, you know, when I would hear from him, you know, I just wanted to do anything to assure that at least for that night, he was OK.</s>DAVID SHEFF: And so for a while, I did give him money, and I did let him come home and sleep it off. And he would promise me that, you know, everything was - he learned his lesson, or whatever. And then the next morning, by the time, you know, the next morning came, he</s>DAVID SHEFF: was gone again.</s>DAVID SHEFF: So eventually, you know, that's where I got. I got to the point that, you know, I realized that everything I was doing was not helping him. So I would never, ever - you know, people in this, you know, world of rehab and addiction, you know, they tell you you have to let go and let a person hit bottom.</s>DAVID SHEFF: I mean, I never got there. I mean, I never, ever could let go of my son. But I did realize that what I was doing wasn't helping, and so I think what made a big difference - certainly for me, and I know, you know, he talks about it, that it made a difference for him - was when he called up one time. It was one of the worst ever. You know, he was near death again. And he said, you know, I want to come home. You know, will you come get me? And I said: I'll come get you, and I'll take you into a treatment place, and I'll set it all up. And he said: No, you know, I've done that before. It doesn't work for me. I've been there.</s>And I said: You know, Nick, I love you so much. Anytime you're ready to get help, call me. And I hung up the phone, and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. I lost it. I was just a wreck because I knew that I - you know, the next phone call I would get, you know, could be, you know, the worst. I mean, he, you know, something irreparable or damage or death.</s>And I said: But nothing else had worked. And you know, what happened was, I think it kind of was part of what woke him up. And he realized, you know, he'd better do something, and he had to do it on his own. And finally he did call and he said, you know, he needed help.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get a caller in on the conversation. We're talking with David Sheff, author and journalist, the author of "Beautiful Boy: A Father's Journey Through His Son's Addiction." And we're talking about what do you do when you're worried that it's only a matter of time; 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. Bianca's on the line, calling from Piedmont, California.</s>BIANCA: I thank you so much for your book. I think it's going to be a really important story because listening to you makes me want to cry. It so mirrors my own experience with my little brother. And he went in and out of rehab in his young 20s and finally - I'll never forget it - he was living with me and my kids, and I was going through a divorce, and I had to kick him out.</s>BIANCA: And he got himself into a rock-bottom situation, and he also asked, you know - said that he wanted some money. And I used to always give it to him. And I didn't really understand that I was enabling him.</s>BIANCA: And in the end, he is clean and sober four years out, and he is a magnificent and amazing human being. And I'm just so glad that we didn't give up on him. And what made the difference in our family was that we did an intervention, and he just - he came to understand that he needed to stop because it was not just destroying himself, but it was destructive to everyone else who loved him as well.</s>BIANCA: And a really important point that I wanted to make is that - what I learned through a friend who's a therapist is that if you are somebody who is using drugs and alcohol, and you get help and go through rehab, if you return to the place where you were living before, and to the families and the friends and your old ways, there's a 90 percent recidivism rate for those people.</s>BIANCA: They have to be physically removed from the things that were tempting them, so to speak. And so my brother actually now lives in Florida, and he runs AA meetings, and he's a model citizen and just an amazing person. So thank you very much for your work, and I hope that it will help save other lives.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And we're glad things worked out, Bianca, and with your little brother.</s>BIANCA: Yes, me too. Thanks. OK, bye-bye.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: They don't always. Here's an email we have from J.D. in Minneapolis. Went through an intervention with my college boyfriend, and my consequence for his decision to decline treatment was that I would not see him again.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Years later, his parents called to inform me that he drank himself to death. A very painful decision at the time, but I feel I did the right thing. And David Sheff, to make that decision, you have to be - well, you talked about it a moment ago. You have to be ready to deal with the consequences.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Yeah, and the truth is, you know, if it's someone you love, you never are. You just, it's - you know, it's like this line, this wavering line. You know, a lot of things kind of wake you up, and it happens slowly, and then there'd be a regression, and I would be so freaked out that, you know, anything to make sure he was OK.</s>DAVID SHEFF: But that whole idea of enabling, I mean, I was at, you know, a family group at one of these rehabs, and this woman was talking about, you know, weeping about, you know, her son and helping her son. And she was saying that, you know, that I have to give him money. I have to - you know, I don't want him to starve. He needs to eat. He needs a place to stay. So I give him money for a hotel, you know, this sort of...</s>DAVID SHEFF: And the counselor said, you know, he's not as helpless as you think because if he wants to go over the - you know, get from San Francisco to Oakland to go to his dealer and, you know, get money for drugs, he's able to do it. And, you know, raised the question: Are you helping him? Are you helping him get better, recognize, you know, that - suffer the consequences of what's happening in his life and what the choices he's making - or not, you know, allowing him to keep using?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Joining us now from a studio at the Mayo Clinic is Dr. Terry Schneekloth, where he's director of the addiction services and assistant professor of psychiatry. And it's good to have you with us today.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: DR. TERRY SCHNEEKLOTH: Thank you very much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And this question of enabling, what do you tell parents, friends when they're worried that they're not helping anymore?</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: You know, David expressed this so well, the battle he continuously had of what was going to be helping his son the most, and not wanting to enable him but not being able to let go, either. And it took such bravery to do what he did that night that Nick called.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: And was there. He was offering help. But Nick didn't accept it at that time. And as he mentioned, Nick called back, and Nick went on to get help. And it often takes that kind of holding the line for family members. And that's incredibly difficult to do and often, it needs to be sorted out as you go.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: And so this is difficult for families. They struggle with it. But I'm very impressed with David's story of how he listened along the way, he participated in the family work. He tried to sort out what would be best for him, for the family, to help Nick. And it's a wonderful, very helpful story of how his son recovered.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: And the majority of people with addictions do recover, and they do better when they have family members that are trying to help them with the process and sort it out and seek help, like David did.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking about difficult decisions when someone you love seems to be spiraling out of control with drugs or alcohol, or both. What do you do when you fear it's just a matter of time?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: If this is your story, give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. We'll have more with our guests, David Sheff, he's the author of "Beautiful Boy: A Father's Journey Through His Son's Addiction"; and also with us, Dr. Terry Schneekloth, assistant professor of psychiatry and director of addiction services at the Mayo Clinic. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. Nearly 40,000 Americans die every year from drug abuse; alcohol-induced deaths number more than 20,000, excluding accidents and murders. That might be your neighbor, your friend, your son or daughter caught in a spiral of substance abuse.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking today about what you can do when you fear the worst, that it's only a matter of time. If this is your story, give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation at our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Our guests, Dr. Terry Schneekloth, director of addition services at the Mayo Clinic, where he's also an assistant professor of psychiatry. David Sheff is with us, too. He's the author of "Beautiful Boy: A Father's Journey Through His Son's Addiction."</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And let's see if we can get another caller on the line. And let's go to - this is Nicolas(ph), Nicolas with us from Duluth.</s>NICOLAS: Hello.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Hi, Nicolas, you're on the air.</s>NICOLAS: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I was just going to say that I'm on the opposite side of that. My father was actually addicted to alcohol, and my family had to take him in and out rehab for years, years and years and years. And he passed away from drinking because he was alcoholic and whatnot. And I just wanted to make a comment to make people aware that people who suffer with addiction, that it's a disease.</s>NICOLAS: Like, it's just like any other disease on the planet, any other disease that kills people, and from that, depression becomes their crutch. And they will use that over and over. They can only accept help if they want it, and people just need to know that you can only give out so much love until it ends up being a lost cause no matter how bad it hurts.</s>NICOLAS: It still just doesn't – it won't always pan out the way it needs to be able to pan out, but to never give up.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I'm sorry at your loss, Nicolas, and thank you very much for the phone call. And there's a couple of points that Nicolas raised that I wanted to address. And one of them is that pattern, in and out, in and out. David Scheff, you mentioned this a little while before. Obviously things have worked out better with your son Nick, but that frustration, another program, another sober living house.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Yeah, it's - you know, the first time I sent him to a program, it was a 28-day program, and even though that was hard, I thought: Oh, thanks God, you know, I'll pick him up in 28 days, and he'll be fine, and we'll move on from this.</s>DAVID SHEFF: But, you know, Nicolas ,who just called, was exactly right. I mean, I'd learned the hard way and over a long period of time that this is a disease. It's, you know - addicts' brains are different than the rest of ours, and, you know, just like, you know, if a person you love has another disease, you know, sometimes it takes a while, you know, and if you get help, and sometimes it comes back, and then you try again, and then sometimes it comes back again.</s>DAVID SHEFF: And, you know, and it's, you know, it's a progressive disease, and it's a chronic illness is what they say. And, you know, that helped me a lot in terms of even this decision about how to help and not help because once I realized that he was ill, I was able to take it less personally. It wasn't necessarily my fault, although I don't know if I ever completely believed that.</s>DAVID SHEFF: And then, you know, I was able to be more compassionate. You know, instead of how could you do this to us, it was more like oh my God, my poor son is ill and needs help.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Ill, and I wanted to bring Dr. Schneekloth in there. Yes, a disease. Does it not also involve, though, some element of character? Many people wonder if willpower can help people.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: You know, well, ultimately there needs to be the choice that one wants to stop. But that's often when the pressure increases to a point that there seem no alternatives. The American Medical Association has identified alcoholism as a disease going back to the mid-1950s, and as Nicolas pointed out and David that it's so important for families to come to see this. Otherwise, they can feel like it's their fault, shameful, guilty.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: As they see it as a disease that's really taken over their loved one's life, it allows them to step back and to address how they're going to cope with it and to see that the disease is going to take its course, that there are ways in which they can intervene, but ultimately the decision needs to be made by the one with the addiction: Are they going to stop?</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: Now, some people can stop on their own. As a matter of fact, the majority of alcoholics stop, never receive addiction treatment, go on to do well. There are different types, though, and some have more severe forms of addiction and need multiple treatments.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: I might add that the disease of addiction is really very comparable to similar chronic illnesses like diabetes, hypertension and asthma where there are repeated exacerbations of the illness, that it comes back. And in the same way with addiction, relapse is often a part of it. Now, families can feel like that's somehow a failure, but often one treatment builds on another and eventually leads, like Nicolas' story, to ongoing recovery.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Ken(ph), Ken with us from Tucson. Ken, are you there? I guess Ken has left us. Let's try instead to go to Joe(ph), and Joe's with us from Charlotte.</s>JOE: Yeah, I got out of college in 1977 and went straight into the field of addiction treatment, everything from counselor all the way up to clinic director. So - and I spent 20 years doing that. I knew the ropes real well. My oldest son, after the Army, showed signs of addiction. We began working with him, trying our best to pull him out of it.</s>JOE: He spiraled deeper and deeper into it. Eventually we realized that he was dual-diagnosed. He was schizophrenic, and he was medicating himself with whatever he could get his hands on.</s>JOE: Eventually we had to tough-love him. He ended up in the county jail for a year. He ended up in Broughton. We tough-loved him through the whole thing. But during this process, my younger son, who was 21, he began to experiment also, and he began to hang out with the kids from his high school who were experimenting.</s>JOE: When he was 21 years old, they went out getting high and drinking, and the girl driving the car wrecked the car. My son was killed, and everyone else in the car lived. So we lost one son. And the oldest son is now again sober for, I don't know, two or three years. He's on medication for schizophrenia, and he goes to AA, and he's been clean and sober.</s>JOE: And in my work in addiction, what I realized is that something that AA tells you is very, very true, and that is there are people who are constitutionally incapable of that form of recovery, and there's just something about them that almost can't be helped.</s>JOE: But in our case, with tough love and with standing firm and with understanding addiction the way I did, we were able to save one son.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And congratulations on that, and we're so sorry for your loss. But given your profession, David Scheff mentioned, and so did Dr. Schneekloth, the guilt that people feel. It must have been how could I miss this, how could I - did you feel like you let your sons down?</s>JOE: Well, you go through such a range, a spectrum of emotions when you lose a child. But the one thing that I think - well, not the one thing but one of the major things that I really learned through the whole experience of both the 20 years of addiction treatment and having lost a child is - and I know this sounds a grave thing to say, but I really believe it's true - no matter what you do, in the end result, you really can't protect them.</s>JOE: You can just give them the very best you can give them and hope that it's the thing that makes the difference. In our case, one, it made the difference and the other we lost before we were able to really grasp him and help him out of it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Joe, thank you for sharing the story, and appreciate it.</s>JOE: Sure.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And here's an email that's on the same point from Kevin(ph): As a recovering alcoholic and addict, I would argue that any action which helps the addict to avoid taking responsibility for his own actions is in fact not support at all. The one most important thing my parents did right was to give me unconditional love and maintain the bridges connecting us.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Dr. Schneekloth, we hear different expressions: tough love, no you've got to make sure that they do have a place to stay and, you know, unconditional - does it vary case to case?</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: I think it does. Now, the unconditional love being available to help them into treatment, into - to receive help whenever they're ready for that, I believe that that needs to be there in support of families that can offer that. But starting out from that point, where you start in, where you help out, when you provide shelter, very tough for families. And it needs to be individualized.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: I'd like to go back to what Joe from Charlotte said, too, about his family members that had both addiction and an emotional problem because so many people with addictions have that. And that may impact how a family member acts and how they support them. And it's so critical for treatment to address both problems at the same time because addressing only the addiction when there is an emotional problem going on as well is only going to get at part of the solution and may be a contributor to someone going back to using.</s>DAVID SHEFF: I'll just say quickly that that was Nick's, my son's situation, too. And it took a long time because, you know, when someone's using drugs, it's hard to see what else is going on. But Nick finally was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and he's on medication for that. And he would say that that's one of the biggest components of, you know, this recovery that he is now, you know, able to pull off.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Margaret in Rochester Hills, Michigan: When I finally went to Al-Anon, it saved my life. There are two addictions involved: the alcoholics to drink and the enablers' addiction to trying to help. I had to break my addiction first. In my case, my alcoholic never recovered, like Amy Winehouse, but I did.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: David Sheff, I know you have experience with Al-Anon.</s>DAVID SHEFF: I did, and I, you know, really resisted it for a long time. I thought I was, you know - I didn't know about it, I guess. But I thought there was going to be sort of a bunch of people in a room whining and drinking bad coffee and whatever. But, you know, I was just so desperate at one point that I would have done anything, and I did go. And as soon as I walked into one of those rooms, I realized, you know, I needed to be there. And these were people that were like me. It was - you know, they were like me because they understood exactly what I was going through because they were going through it too, and it really helped a lot.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we go next to Cathy, Cathy with us from Kansas City.</s>CATHY: Hi. I just wanted to ask Dr. Schneekloth - I'm sorry - about the advisability of forcing a person into treatment if you're just hoping for a break in the cycle. My adult son is - does have emotional problems and refuses counseling, and I believe he is just really spiraling down. In fact, I know he has a death wish. So I don't know that this would be helpful.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: Well, what pressures you have available I would encourage you to use, certainly to express your concerns, to encourage him to get help as he's an adult. If he's unwilling to do that, that is as far as you can go. But you know, often a simple intervention of talking with him, going to the family physician with him and the three of you discussing it together may be a step to get him help. And certainly in a good treatment program you don't know what can happen. Often when someone is just in a cloud of their addiction, they're not able to see what's going on.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: Now, there are also, you know, interventions that can occur with family members in contacting county social services if you think that there's an imminent danger that someone has, and that's really the only time you're able to force an adult into treatment that they don't want against their will.</s>CATHY: OK. Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Cathy, good luck.</s>CATHY: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And I wanted to get back to you, David Sheff. And there is sometimes almost - your son was addicted to meth, which is incredibly destructive, incredibly addictive and causes all kinds of problems in addition to the addiction. It must be especially frustrating. Not to say that alcohol is easy or heroin is easy or anything. It's not. They're all addictions, and to some degree they're all the same, but meth causes so many other problems.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Yeah, it does. And when Nic - Nic said that, you know, he was using other drugs, but when he tried meth, you know, it was it for him. And he went - that's when the spiral down - it just completely took over his life. And, of course, you know, people - I don't think most people just use one drug. And so he ended up using every single drug you can think of. He was shooting heroin, he was using crack and he was taking every pill he could get.</s>DAVID SHEFF: But it did, you know, pose extra challenges when he did get into treatment because, you know, meth makes you crazy, and he was pretty crazy. And, you know, if it were not for the fact that, you know, he got - he was in the care, finally, of good doctors, and we were really lucky. And he, you know, we were just so lucky because, as so many people have said today, you know, a lot of people don't make it.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: David Sheff's book, "Beautiful Boy: A Father's Journey Through His Son's Addiction." Also with us Dr. Terry Schneekloth, assistant professor of psychiatry and director of addiction services at the Mayo Clinic. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And back to an email on a subject that we've mentioned before, this one from Brenda: Much of addiction is masking or coping for mental illness and/or brain damage. Tough love and enabling won't really change the underlying problem. How do treatment programs identify this issue?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Dr. Schneekloth, can you help us out?</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: It's often very complex, and I believe it's the reason that it's important to get family members to competent care providers. None of us would take our family members to a general physician who's practicing 1960s-era medicine. We shouldn't be doing that with family members, to take them into addiction treatments that really haven't kept up on the advances in the brain science.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: So many incredible things have changed in our understanding of the neurochemistry of addiction, what causes it, the psychiatric diagnoses which may occur at the same time, or the symptoms that look like a psychiatric diagnosis that someone may have from their substance use. And that needs to be teased out in a safe setting by highly qualified professionals.</s>SCHNEEKLOTH: I know in our own practice here at the Mayo Clinic over the past 50 years, we've had to continuously change those treatments based upon the advances in the science. For instance, there are now medications available to help people with craving for alcohol, which are seldom used in the United States. Many people with alcoholism don't have that as part of their treatment. So it's important to have a treatment program that's going to look at everything, look at the emotional problems, the general medical health, as well as providing addiction treatment that's state-of-the-art.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get one more caller in. Leslie is on the line, Leslie with us from Kansas City.</s>LESLIE: Yes. Hi. I'm really glad to hear your program, and I just - my heart goes out to the author and any parents that deal with addiction. Because I actually lost my brother in 1995. He was 38. And I saw my parents from the time I was born practically trying to handle him. And he was brilliant. I mean, he had an IQ over 160. He was an incredible con artist, very charming, but he was born right in the midst of all the drugs in the 1960s, and, you know, he was just ripe for the taking.</s>LESLIE: And, you know, he could quit for a while, but it was almost as if they were afraid to just let him go. Even though he did live on the street, they thought they'd find him dead in a ditch somewhere. Instead, they found him in their garage on April day, and with heroin and cocaine and some other barbiturates in his system.</s>LESLIE: And, you know, it's just - I just wanted to throw out the fact that a lot of people think, oh, 30 days in treatment will take care of it. A lot of people don't get better. And a lot of people, as your guests know, can go in and out of treatment a million times. And it's a very tricky disease - and cunning, baffling and powerful, they say in the program. And, you know, I just - I'm glad to hear, you know, the information, but I just want to say that it's a tragic thing for parents to deal with. And I never thought that anything could destroy my parents, you know, as you do as a child. And they lived through it, but they were never the same.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nobody's ever the same, Leslie.</s>LESLIE: I'm sorry?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Nobody's ever the same.</s>LESLIE: You're right. You're right. And I, you know, I just - trying to help often will hurt. And, you know, I don't have the answers, that's for sure, but I'm just glad to hear it out on the airwaves. Thanks so much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And thanks so much for the call. I wanted to end with this email we have from Elizabeth in San Jose. I'm the mother of a recovering addict. David's book was the catalyst for me in reaching out for help for myself. The night I checked my then-15-year-old son into an inpatient rehab facility, I sat and read "A Beautiful Boy" cover to cover, thinking it held the answer to fixing my son.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: While the book does not offer a cure for addiction, it gave me a sense I was not a lone in this struggle, and I subsequently reached out for help from others who suffer due to the addiction of a friend or loved one through a worldwide organization called Nar-Anon. And Elizabeth, thank you very much for the email. Thanks to everybody who called and wrote. I'm sorry we couldn't get to everybody's story. David Sheff, thanks for your time.</s>DAVID SHEFF: Thank you, Neal.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: David Sheff joined us from KQED. And our thanks as well to Dr. Terry Schneekloth at the Mayo Clinic. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.

Now that Donald Trump is the apparent Republican nominee, those in the "Never Trump" camp have a decision to make. NPR's Melissa Block speaks with Rory Cooper, Senior Advisor to the "Never Trump" PAC.

MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: For months, super PACs with the tagline Never Trump spent millions of dollars trying to defeat Donald Trump. They didn't stop him from becoming the de facto Republican nominee. Still, the Never Trump folks show no sign of stopping either. Rory Cooper is the senior adviser to the Never Trump PAC, and he says the most important thing his group can do now is set Donald Trump apart from the entire Republican Party.</s>RORY COOPER: It's important that people not begin to tie Donald Trump's rhetoric or his positions to that of the larger conservative movement. The mantra of Never Trump has become a famous Alexander Hamilton quote. And it goes, if we must have an enemy at the head of government, let it be one who we can oppose and for whom we are not responsible and who will not involve our party in the disgrace of his foolish and bad measures.</s>RORY COOPER: And the idea behind that is if Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton is going to be elected, let it be somebody who does not scar our movement or our party for decades to come, but rather somebody who we can legitimately oppose.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: So you're saying given that choice, you would prefer to have Hillary Clinton win the presidency than Donald Trump?</s>RORY COOPER: I would prefer to have another alternative, which we don't know whether or not that will occur at the moment. It is perfectly acceptable for voters to choose none of the above at the top of the ticket. But we certainly hope that Republican voters go out and support their Republican candidates for Congress or at the state and local level.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Well, let me pursue a couple of those points. There are Republicans who criticize the Never Trump groups for putting money into anti-Trump ads. They say this is money down the drain. You should be putting that money into down ballot races instead, really focusing your efforts there. Leave Trump aside.</s>RORY COOPER: We will be focusing our efforts on down ballot races. If you look at the map right now, Donald Trump actually puts states that are traditionally Republican into a calm where they have to be defended. That puts Congress in a very perilous position. So we're going to absolutely focus efforts to make sure that conservatives and Republicans in the truest sense can get sent to Congress so that if the choice is Clinton versus Trump and Clinton defeats him that we will have a firewall in Congress against her liberal agenda.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Mr. Cooper, what about Republican Party unity?</s>RORY COOPER: We had passed the point of nobody having hurt feelings a long time ago. But the best long-term approach for the Republicans is to continue to support the principles, the positions and the values that are essential to being a Republican rather than to abandon those for somebody who largely sides with Democrats on most of the platform and is a man of serious low character.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: When you look, Mr. Cooper, at how successful Donald Trump has been through these primaries, winning in some cases by really commanding margins, does it occur to you that maybe you are out of step with Republican voters and he's tapping into something that needs to be paid attention to?</s>RORY COOPER: There's absolutely no doubt that there is a frustration within this country. And I think that Republicans would certainly benefit from trying to understand why people have decided to express that frustration and anger by voting for Donald Trump. Unfortunately, if you look at his policy positions they don't match what people have wanted.</s>RORY COOPER: In fact, for the last several years the conservative movement and the Tea Party movement - the grassroots - have demanded that Republicans focus less about winning elections and more on putting our principles into action in Washington and stopping the liberal agenda. Right now, you generally are seeing the opposite of people saying well, let's just win the election even if that person's not a conservative.</s>RORY COOPER: So I think that there is some confusion that is caused by, frankly, a - you know, an Obama presidency that has angered a great deal of America. So I think Republicans should understand why that occurs, but that doesn't mean that they should try to mimic or copy Donald Trump's character issues or his policy positions. What they should be doing is trying to understand how they can better use conservatism and their principles to speak to those disaffected voters.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: Rory Cooper is senior adviser to the Never Trump PAC. Mr. Cooper, thanks for talking with us.</s>RORY COOPER: It's been my pleasure.</s>MELISSA BLOCK, HOST: And you're listening to NPR News.

Total student loan debt in the U.S. will cross the 1 trillion dollar threshold in 2011, an amount that surpasses the nation's combined credit card debt. It affects how many students and graduates decide whether and where to go to school, what job to take, where to live and how to pay their bills. Claudio Sanchez, education correspondent, NPR

NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan, in Washington. The total owed on student loans is expected to cross the $1 trillion mark by the end of this year. That's a number that's doubled in the past five years. And to give you some perspective, Americans now owe more on student loans than we do on our credit cards.</s>Debt now drives more and more decisions: which school to attend, maybe community college instead; and some can no longer justify a passion for anthropology or English literature when some other degree might pay off more quickly. And costs continue to rise.</s>Debt now drives more and more decisions: What decisions has your student debt forced you to make? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.</s>Later in the program: the world's seven billionth person, on The Opinion Page this week, and the difficulties of projecting how high world population may get and how fast it may get there. But first student loans, and NPR education correspondent Claudio Sanchez joins us here in Studio 3A. And Claudio, nice to have you back with us.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Good to be here.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: A trillion dollars, how did we get here?</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: First I should say that, you know, the Federal Reserve has disputed this number, and they point to the fact that the reason that the credit card rate is down, or the debt is down, is because people have literally torn up their credit cards. They can't afford to pay for them anymore. And you also have the fact that, you know, that the reason the debt for student loans are up is because college enrollment has skyrocketed.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And continues to skyrocket, even though people know they're going to end up with college loans to pay.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Exactly. Now here's a figure, though, that is interesting. About 82 percent of the outstanding student lent today, as we speak, accrued over the last 10 years. From 1999 to 2011, student loans have grown 511 percent. That's amazing.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We've already - the lines are flooded. We've gotten tons of emails already, this from Pamela in Lava Hot Springs, Idaho. It's a little long, but: How hasn't student loan debt affected my life, she wrote. It dictated what school I could attend as an undergraduate. It was the primary reason I did not go to veterinary school.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: In graduate school, I worked as a teaching assistant and had a part-time job, affecting my ability to finish. I got a job I could not afford to keep. So it has influenced my job decisions. I have no children, as I wasn't going to start a family until I could pay off my loan debt, and now it's too late. I have moved 2,500 miles from my family for better job options and lower costs of living.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Now I'm in a Ph.D. program and have no expectations of ever getting out of this hole. We paid off my husband's, but mine grows each year beyond what I can pay back on the typical salary in the field of wildlife biology. Students get less now for what they're being charged. It skyrockets either in tuition or hidden fees like lab fees, and university budgets get cut and cut. If you look, the only increase in spending has been in university administration costs.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: And every time we've covered this issue, Neal, we hear from people who actually have little empathy for students who pick history or English as a degree.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Or wildlife biology.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Exactly, so, you know, there's a kind of a let's blame the victim here, in effect. But it's unreasonable to expect that - you know, if you have a passion, if you follow passion and want to pursue that in higher education, it's - it used to unreasonable to ask people to give up on that in order to, you know, be more pragmatic, get into the sciences or technology.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Get an engineering degree, yeah.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Exactly. And now there's, again, little tolerance for people who pick careers that some people say isn't going to help you pay back those loans.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's get a caller on the line. Jennifer's(ph) calling from Oakland.</s>JENNIFER: Hi, I'll be 42 in December, and I finished my master's degree at Tulane, where I actually had a tuition waiver and a student assistantship in 1995. And I've got double undergraduate degree, bachelors in Spanish and sociology. My master's is Latin American studies.</s>JENNIFER: But I ended up taking out a lot of student loans just to cover basic living expenses, even though I had an assistantship, and I worked part-time. So I worked 30 hours a week. And I worked more than that during my undergraduate, but during graduate school, it was harder because there was a lot more work.</s>JENNIFER: And I had the idea that I was going to go get a Ph.D. and become a professor, and I didn't get accepted into any of the programs I applied to, even at one school, which a professor who was a volunteer reader on my master's thesis had written me a glowing recommendation, didn't even get accepted there.</s>JENNIFER: So I went into tech, and I've been doing project management, which is basically babysitting, and I can't do anything in my field. You know, people look at my resume, and they think oh, that's great, you've got a master's degree, and you speak Spanish and French and Italian. And I've been teaching myself Arabic. But I've never been able to use any of those languages in any of my jobs because I can't afford to take a job that does - you know, where I can do things that I enjoy.</s>JENNIFER: I've still got $23,000 in debt, and I had over $60,000 when I finished.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And have you projected what year you may get out from underneath?</s>JENNIFER: You know, right now, I'm only working part-time because the economy is so bad in our area that, you know, all the employers are switching to - even though we're at an at-will hiring state in California, they're all switching to contract. They don't want to commit to employees. So all I can get are contract jobs.</s>JENNIFER: And my last full-time contract ended two years ago, and I've been on a part-time contract since December 2009, which has its ups and downs. I'm telecommuting, you know, the whole term of the contract. And I've taken on some other part-time work there.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So in other words, it's stretching out forever at this point.</s>JENNIFER: (Unintelligible) pay off just to - you know, and to cover rent and other expenses.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Jennifer, good luck.</s>JENNIFER: Yeah, thanks.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And those are the kinds of decisions everybody who graduates with a big student loan debt is forced to - and we kept being told at the beginning of this recession that, all right, one of the best things to do is go back to school, get another degree. That'll help you when you get out. By that time, the economy will have picked up, and you'll benefit from having that other degree.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Certainly up until this recession that was the case. That was the trend, you know, you go back to school, If nothing else to improve your employment chances. But in this recession, something has gone terribly wrong.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: I should say that, you know, if people ask when and how did this begin, you could point easily to the fact that state funding for higher education, public higher education, has dropped 24 percent. With less state aid, colleges have had to rely more on students and families to pay a bigger share of their education. College tuition, meanwhile, and fees have been climbing faster than inflation, faster than wages and family income.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: The average tuition right now, Neal, is really high compared to what it was only a few years ago. Just this fall, tuition and fees, on average, went up $631, an eight percent increase over last year.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: For public schools, yeah.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: For public schools. You know, a full-time student these days is having to pay close to $8,000 a year even if they're in-state, $16,000 a year if you are - if you include room and board. These are the kinds of costs that, again, are pushing families to have to borrow more and more and more and at the worst possible moment.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's a - well, except for interest rates aren't so bad. But Heidi(ph) in Bozeman, Montana, emailed: What's the point of going to school and spending thousands of dollars if there's no job waiting upon graduation to help pay the student pay off the debt? Both I and my friends all graduated with between $20,000 and $40,000 in debt, and we all work at a corporate restaurant - so much for the American dream.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Before we get to more calls and emails, Claudio, last week President Obama said he was terribly aware of this awful situation that so many people face and with an executive order said he was going to make it easier for some people to repay their student loans.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Right, he calls it a pay-as-you-earn plan, which is actually something that the president passed through Congress in 2009. So it's relatively new. It's just been repackaged. And he's made it, I guess, more available beginning in 2012.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: It's not considered what many people would consider transformative. This is not an enormously important or watershed moment in the funding of higher education or loans. Its most current version essentially says the following: If you have a government-backed loan, it will be backed - or capped at - or debt, I should say, it would be capped at 10 percent in terms of your monthly payments.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: The White House estimates that 1.6 million students would be eligible to seek their - to lower their monthly payments, which could go down by hundreds of dollars, depending on how much you owe. And if in 20 years down the road you still haven't paid off all the debt, the federal government will forgive the balance.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: On the face of it, this all sounds very good. This could bring at least some relief to some people. But first, people should know that any borrower who graduated in 2011 or earlier will not be eligible. It's strictly for those in college now or in the future. Also, if you have defaulted on a government-subsidized loan, you're not eligible. Private loans, not subsidized by the government, are not covered by this plan.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: So it has a limited impact. And the people who have done a little bit of the math here have suggested that even with that 10 percent cap on discretionary income, you know, people are likely to save maybe anywhere from $30 to $50 per month. Now that may be a lot for some folks, but it is not a lot of money when you consider how much money some of these students owe.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So it's also important to remember, of course, you can't declare bankruptcy on student loans.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: That's right. The government will come after you. I mean, you just can't have that loan just absolutely forgiven or erased.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: To be fair to the president, is this the extent that he could change things in students' favor without going back to Congress, which is not a really productive place to go at the moment?</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Sure, he's used this politically to say that do-nothing Congress, you know, has forced me to do this. But everybody agrees that unless Congress acts and takes up this issue in a bipartisan way, with the president, the whole pricing structure of higher education, as well as the long-term fixes that are needed to bring these loans and at least the debt down, the default rates down and so forth, which is creeping up, you're really not going to see much movement.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's - we'll go through some emails. They are flooding in, a tweet from Cataclysmic: My college debt is stifling. I'm afraid to switch jobs and have kids for fear that I will never get out of it after a setback. This from Chris(ph) in Minneapolis: I'm a lawyer who has over $100,000 in student loans. I have no quibble paying back the principle, which I borrowed.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I have a serious problem, however, with the terms, almost eight percent. I cannot refinance. I don't qualify for hardship payments and can only pay them off or die, at which point they disappear. Is this the American dream? Those interest payments, 8 percent, interest rates are now - you can get a mortgage for under four.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: That's right, and if you have a private loan, if you borrowed from a bank or a private lender, those rates can be even higher. And again, you know, because this - the president's plan doesn't cover private loans, which have increasingly become a bigger share of what families have to borrow, then, I mean, people are still going to be in a bind a year or two years, three years down the road.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with Claudio Sanchez, NPR education correspondent. More in a moment about the costs of college education and what decisions college student loan debts are making people make. Call us with your story, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. Two-thirds of college students now graduate with thousands of dollars in loan debt. The average amount: $24,000. Recent graduates already face a tough job market, of course, and this high level of debt can affect any number of decisions, about schools and about careers and about life.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: What decisions has your student debt forced you to make? Give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Our guest is NPR education correspondent Claudio Sanchez. And let's go next to Eros(ph), Eros with us from Tucson.</s>EROS: Yeah, I have about $70,000 in student debt. I went and got an undergraduate degree in psychology, and then I went to grad school for a year in the same subject, decided I didn't want to do it and then dropped out of school, and the economy turned bad.</s>EROS: And I spent about three years trying to find a decent-paying job, going through my deferments for my loans, and couldn't find one. And now I decided just to go back to school - I'm a film major - in order to not have to repay those loans because I really don't have the money for it. But in essence, I'm borrowing more money. And I'm getting myself deeper in debt. So I feel really stuck in the system and the way the economy is right now.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So as long as you are a student, you're not required to pay back the loans. But of course, you're borrowing more money to continue to be a student.</s>EROS: Yes.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I think - have you read "Catch-22"?</s>EROS: Yeah, I feel like I'm the U.S. government.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Thanks very much, Eros. And that is, I guess, a way out. But boy, you know, maybe the film business will explode.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: And I mean, I have heard so many stories like this one. You know, the one - not that this is less of a, I guess, sad story that we just heard, but when you consider that a lot of medical students who, you know, accrue debts of upwards of half-a-million dollars sometimes after they got done, what it's really doing in some areas is forcing people to go into the fields or the specialties that are least needed.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: I mean, when you look at some doctors or at least some people who said they wanted to be family practitioners, that they wanted to go to rural communities so that they could - you know, maybe the only doctor in the area, these are folks who are now having to make that tough, tough decision to say, well, look, I mean, I'm not going to get nearly as much as if I go into some other more lucrative area.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Plastic surgery.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Plastic surgery. And that is, I think, depleting both the nation as well as these individuals. And, you know, we're hearing more and more about that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Betsy(ph) in Madison: So why are schools still accepting and turning out graduate students in the humanities? Seems like there are not enough jobs today, and still schools persist with the degrees. As an aside, my brother is a 50-something unemployed Ph.D. humanities graduate with lots of debt and very few possibilities for employment. He's been unemployed for three years.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: And, you know, it's interesting that in stories that we've done, as you may recall, the Occupy Wall Street movement, you know, raised this precise issue of, you know, forgiving student debt and at least trying to compel the government to do more for some of these students who cannot find jobs.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: The bottom line is that a lot of people are having to just rethink what decisions they make. And, you know, for people with a humanities degree or a Ph.D. in that area, sure there's always teaching, but if you're not - you know, if you don't want to do that, then what are the options, really? And I think that that's why people are being a little bit more reflective about the specialties or the fields that they choose.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's go next to Kate(ph), and Kate is in Mishawka, Indiana, excuse me.</s>KATE: Hi, guys. I just wanted to comment. I actually took 10 years to get my degree because I could not decide on a major but took a community college route for eight years and paid payments on it, cash every semester before I could schedule classes again. I guess I'm just wondering - I mean, and obviously I graduated with my bachelor's degree and could not find an accounting job.</s>KATE: My bachelor's is in accounting, and so I decided to go back, paid cash for my study materials to get my CPA. I guess I'm just wondering why this debt is a surprise to anyone when you have to request this money throughout your entire degree.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Congratulations, by the way, Kate.</s>KATE: Thanks.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: But Claudio?</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Well, you know, that's one reason why college - community college enrollment is way, way up. I think people are taking a second look at community colleges or have been forced to. I mean, community college can actually be a great buy.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: You don't have to borrow nearly as much. A lot of people just pay out of pocket. On average, if I'm not mistaken, we're talking about $3,000 a year, on average, for a pretty good, reasonable, you know, curriculum, and certainly in fields that are really needed, in technical fields and vocationally or oriented fields, whether it's medical or other fields.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: So they're taking up a lot of the slack in the - at this point. The problem with community colleges is that a lot of people drop out of community college. It has a high dropout rate. That may be because it does tend to get a lot of folks who didn't do well in high school. They come in needing a lot of remediation. Kate may or may not be an example of that. But is it a smart move at a time right now when we're seeing these, you know, four-year institutions raise their tuitions? You bet.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Again, we come back to one very fundamental change in higher education, and that is that college, community colleges are being starved by their states, and they're far more reliant on state funding than most institutions in post-secondary education.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Kate, does that $3,000 a year sound about right?</s>KATE: Yeah, and you know what? I'm not going to lie: I wanted to go away to school and party and get that away-from-home experience, but the cost was just too much. I spent the bulk of the money on the last two years of my education, still managed to scrape by and pay that off. But I just can't see spending, you know, upwards of $50,000 on an education.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Kate, thanks very much. And good luck in your CPA career.</s>KATE: Thank you.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Robert(ph) in Lakewood: Hearing the stories about college loans makes me thankful that I went to college in the late '60s, when tuition cost $125 per quarter. We weren't going to continue to be a global leader if we don't roll back the ever-increasing costs of college. Who can afford it? And that's in Lakewood, Ohio.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And doesn't that get down to the fundamental question, Claudio?</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: That's right, but there's little anybody can do. As long as public institutions for state-land-grant-type big schools rely on state funding, they're going to be stuck. And they have no one else to pass on those costs than to students and families. And I don't see that changing, and I haven't talked to any people who see that changing anytime soon.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: In fact, it's the opposite. A lot of - the biggest increases in funding for these institutions has actually come from the federal government, especially if you're a research institution. But, you know, those savings, if they can be called savings, or that money isn't passed on to the student or to the family. I mean, families and students are still having to pay the bulk or at least a larger share of their education.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: So that's when you see state university systems, for example California, with sharp increases in tuition because there have been sharp cutbacks in their funding from the state.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Exactly. On average, statewide, 24-percent cuts.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Let's see if we can go next to - this is Rachel(ph), Rachel with us from St. Louis.</s>RACHEL: Hi, I am actually originally from New York. And I fell to the prey of a for-profit education system because I didn't know any better. I was the first person in my family to go to college. So I did get a graphic design bachelor's degree, but I owe over $100,000 now because I didn't know any better.</s>RACHEL: There was no process where they updated me and told me how much money I had taken out along the way, and actually the school that I went to now is under a federal lawsuit for fraudulent student loan practices.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Oh, is this one of those for-profit universities?</s>RACHEL: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's - EDMC is the leading, like, group that owns the art institutes. And most of my friends that went there, they didn't even graduate, and they still have all this debt. And I know of - I can't remember the guy's name. I know that he is in Michigan, and he's trying to get something passed to, I guess, he's saying to stimulate the economy they should forgive all these student loans because we're generally creating a working class of well-educated poor people.</s>RACHEL: And I mean, I only make $35,000 a year, which isn't bad, but I'm never going to be able to pay $100,000. And it's really sad because, I mean, I can pay my bills now, and it feels good to pay my bills, but knowing this will always be there, it, like, makes it seem like it wasn't even worth it to go to school because I didn't even learn anything. I taught myself everything.</s>RACHEL: And I've heard from, like, people in the art field that are art directors and HR people that whenever they see the art institutes, they don't even look at the portfolio. They just throw the resume away. And essentially, I have $100,000 worthless piece of paper.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Claudio?</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: You know, this sounds like what Secretary Duncan has called the bad actors in the for-profit school industry. And, you know, the fact that you owe $100,000, and you still feel like you didn't learn anything, that must say something about that institution.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Now having said that, you know, the president or the Obama administration has said it's enough. We can no longer help subsidize these institutions. For-profit schools right now make up 12 percent of post-secondary enrollment, but they take up 24 percent of federal loans and federal dollars and produce 43 percent of federal loan defaults. Now, that is a lot, and that says, again, something about maybe why this industry has to be regulated more, even though there's an enormous amount of resistance.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: The graduation rates for for-profit schools, like the one that Rachel went to, is only a fifth, 22 percent, for first-time, fulltime students in a four-year program. That's compared to 55 percent for most - or typical public institutions. The numbers are just all whacky when it comes to these for-profits. These are schools that rely almost entirely on students getting federal aid or some kind of loan. Ninety-seven percent of students who graduate from these institutions had to borrow money.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Many are low-income students. A fourth of them have to - had to take out more than $40,000, on average. And, again, that's very high compared to public institutions where only 5 percent of students take up - or take as much as $40,000 in loans or more. So the Department of Ed has said we're going to crack down on these so-called bad actors. Now, there's been a lot of political debate over this on Capitol Hill because some folks there, especially Republicans, feel that, you know, this is an industry that is actually taking up the slack and giving students a more practical education. They're putting them in jobs earlier for better wages.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And giving opportunities to people who don't have those opportunities are traditional jobs.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Exactly, because these are people who often wouldn't have made it, or at least qualified for undergraduate education programs in a state school. But the problem here is that maybe, you know, the numbers speak for themselves that there's something really wrong if you graduate with that much debt and still don't have a job.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an email from Richard, in Ann Arbor. I matriculated at the University of Michigan 50 years ago last month. Out of curiosity, a couple of weeks ago, I looked up the current tuition and fees for the same program. The current costs are about 40 times what they were then. And this from Ross in Pittsburgh: Really enjoying the conversation. As a sociology professor with my own student loan debt, I really take issue with the argument that one should get a more practical degree.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: College is not vocational tech school. It's supposed to be about creating more informed, critically thinking, creative citizens who are more engaged. These people are generally more employable, but if all we focus on is practical job training, we lose much of the purpose of a college education. I don't want to lose that liberal arts focus.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: That's a good point. But, again, we're at a time when the economy is dictating so much in the way we think about this. I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking that, you know, a well-rounded education will give you better prospects down the road. But in this economy, people with well-rounded educations aren't doing that well. People with a degree in, you know, in a technical field are, in some cases, more likely to find a job, even if it's not the greatest job, but they're finding something.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Claudio Sanchez, NPR education correspondent. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News. Brad's on the line, calling from Sacramento.</s>BRAD: Hi. I think that's a - I feel like I'm sort of an authority on student debt in that I'm a physician. And coming from a lower-middle-class upbringing, we never had any - I never had any help from my parents. And so when I finished medical school, I had over $200,000 in loans, which was just overwhelming to me, and really affected what I opted to go into. I felt obligated to go into a specialty and ended up being a surgeon, because I felt like I needed to do something with a larger income to - because of the loan burden. And for many years, it was like a, you know, like a bad dream, like, all my loan debt. But fortunately, over time, I've been able to pay it down.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, congratulations on paying it down. If you'd your choice about which specialty to go into, what would you have picked?</s>BRAD: I think that - ultimately, I think I would have ended up in the same field. I just love surgery so much. But often I, you know, my fellow students, a lot of them going to the same school, graduate with the same amount of debt by going into, let's say, primary care or pediatrics, where you start off with a - maybe a salary of $70,000, and you have $200,000 in loans. It's just, you know, it's a much harder lifestyle choice. And so...</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: I'd be curious, Brad. Are you still paying back that money?</s>BRAD: I am. You know, I've been out in practice for almost six years, and so I - and my training was six years long after medical school. So for six years, I was making, you know, 35, $40,000 as a resident. And so most of my loans just kept on accumulating. And so it ended up being like 240,000. And now, you know, unfortunately, I'm part of the - that 1 percent, the unpopular 1 percent in the country. I make about $250,000 a year. But most of my income, I put towards my loans.</s>BRAD: And so, you know, I'm proud to say that now it's about $15,000. And so I guess there's some degree of hope to people out there with large a amount of loans. You know, I think that, although it may affect your career decisions, you know, I'm - I come from very meager upbringing, and every time I look in the mirror, I feel like I'm the American dream. You know, I really came from nothing. Now I'm a surgeon. I have a good income and a reasonable life. And I have these crazy loans, and now it's - you know, hopefully, in the next, you know, year or two, I'll be able to be student-loan debt free.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Well, congratulations, Brad. Good luck.</s>BRAD: All right. Thank you so much.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Here's an e-comment from Erik in Boulder: For the folks complaining about loan terms, didn't they sign a piece of paper with the loan terms? Why are they surprised? Again, some people don't have too much patience with people who take out this money, knowing they're going to have to pay it back.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: The bottom line is that this is such a complicated, convoluted process. The government hasn't made it any easier, by the way. I mean, you - the fact that you have a piece of paper in front of you, and you understand little or nothing that is on that paper - you know, certainly, it's the responsibility of an individual to find out what they're signing. But this is a process that could be so much easier and could be so much more simple. And yet, you know, it's often thought that it's in the interest of institutions and the bureaucracy to keep it complicated.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: So, you know, there really hasn't been a major move other than in the initial phase, during which people apply for financial aid - called the FAFSA - you know, to go ahead and streamline that process. But other than that, I mean, the whole lending business just hasn't done nearly enough to get people to understand what exactly they're signing on to.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: This is an email from Jack who says thank you, President Obama. In the past, the Education Department was uncompromising. If I couldn't come up with the whole $600, they wouldn't accept partial payments, so I disagree with Claudio. This is a big step in the right direction - at least for him. So that may be one person - it helps. Claudio, thank you very much for your time today. We got a zillion calls and emails, and I'm sorry we couldn't get to them all.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: Well, I suspect you did this show because it's Halloween, right? You wanted to scare people to death. So...</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Just the high school seniors.</s>CLAUDIO SANCHEZ: That's right. Good being here. Thanks.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Thank you very much. When we come back, the world's population - seven billion, now - is on the Opinion Page. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION, from NPR News.

Earlier this month, Congress passed a bill that dramatically expands intelligence agencies' ability to eavesdrop on American citizens. Washington Post staff writer Joby Warrick has been covering the story and says there's a big difference in what the agencies could do before this bill passed and what they can do now.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In other news, Congress has rewritten the rules of domestic surveillance. The Bush administration sought broad new powers to wiretap Americans they believe are talking with terrorism suspects overseas. And earlier this month, the Democratically-controlled House and Senate took one look at the administration's wish list and passed it nearly word for word.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Joby Warrick, a staff writer for the Washington Post, has been covering the story. He says there's a big difference in what intelligence agencies could do before this bill pass and what they can do now.</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): In the past, any contact involved a person who is in the United States required a warrant. Now, as long as the - one of the parties is overseas and the person who happens to be in the United States isn't a target of the investigation, then surveillance is allowed without a warrant.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So why this? Why now? What happened to precipitate this bill?</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): Well, there has been some growing concern among intelligence officials about sort of a lack of capability to quickly intercept calls that may have to do with terrorism activity. There was a secret court ruling by a court known as FISA back in the spring of this year, which stopped or prohibited some of the activities that had been going on up to that time and told the intelligence community, you have to get warrants to continue to intercept these calls.</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): And so as a result of that, there was an enormous backlog and a number of warrants that were being requested and there's a lot of paperwork and man hours involved in trying to obtain these warrants. And so the intelligence officials are telling us that they really were not able to do their work as effectively before and it was creating a true crisis in terms of being able to figure out al-Qaida and other terrorist groups were up to.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So one of your stories outlines a frenzied back and forth between congressional Democrats and the president's new intelligence chief over what would and wouldn't be allowed in the bill. What were the biggest differences in their positions?</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): Well, some of them seem quite subtle to those of us from the outside, but there were, for example, there was a, you know, the Democratic version of this bill held that the only surveillance permitted would have to involve someone who's suspected of terrorism. So in other words, the target had to be a suspect terrorist. And the intelligence community insisted on a much broader definition in which any kind of foreign intelligence collection was allowed without any kind of warrant whatsoever. And the - that's the view that ultimately prevailed in the legislation that went through Congress.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So although the legislation went through and congressional Democrats, by and large, don't seem happy about it, there is a catch in the bill - the expiration date. Tell us a little bit about that.</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): That's right. There's a built-in sunset to this law, which is 180 days, which means essentially in six months, this law expires and will have to be replaced or amended. And the Democrats have plans to move forward even much quicker than that and try to fix what they see is big problems in this law, and to try to come up with a compromise would be more acceptable to them and a little more protective in their view of American civil liberties.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There's been a lot of talk lately about a meeting several years ago between then White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales and then Attorney General John Ashcroft. Ashcroft was in the hospital. His deputy, James Comey, had refused to renew a controversial surveillance program. Gonzales visited Ashcroft in his hospital room and is alleged to have asked him to sign off on the program himself since Comey would not. How does that program relate to the bill that just cleared Congress?</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): Well, there's a good bit that's unknown about that because the actual substance of that hospital conversation is not fully known. It is not known, for example, whether they were talking about a fairly narrowed program, which is the terrorist surveillance program, as the president refers to it, which is just surveillance of al-Qaida operatives or something much broader. And something - whatever the substance of the conversation was, it so upset or, you know, got these Justice Department officials wound-up enough that several of them threatened to resign, and exactly what they were referring to and the kinds of activities that they were concerned about, we still don't know all the details there.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you've written about the new technology that the administration plans to use for domestic surveillance, including high-tech satellites. What exactly do they want to put into play and what precedents would it set?</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): This is very interesting. Up until now, satellites and other kinds of airborne surveillance that does routine spying on foreign targets such as, you know, military movements, al-Qaida training camps, whatever these military satellites look at, that's been strictly a foreign program so there's no use for these satellites on U.S. soil or for U.S. purposes. The only exception has been that some scientists have had access to these very sensitive, very sophisticated satellite photographs for things like creating very accurate topographic maps or, you know, examining volcanic activity, that kind of thing.</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): And now there's a movement underway within the intelligence community to kind of make some of these assets available for much broader domestic use, and this could include anything from response to a natural disaster, such as a hurricane or forest fires to potentially law enforcement activity. So you could have a point in the near future where a state or local police department may request and receive this kind of very detailed, very sophisticated overhead surveillance data in order to pursue local criminal cases.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Joby Warrick, a lot there, and definitely thank you so much for filling us in.</s>Mr. JOBY WARRICK (Staff Writer, Washington Post): You're welcome.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Joby Warrick is a staff writer for The Washington Post.

Michael Vick's attorney Billy Martin announced that the Atlanta Falcons quarterback will plead guilty to federal dogfighting conspiracy charges. For more on the implications of these charges, Farai Chideya speaks with Sports Illustrated reporter George Dohrmann.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has been tried again and again in the court of public opinion despite the fact that he pleaded not guilty to federal dogfighting conspiracy charges. Well, now he's changing his tune. According to Attorney Billy Martin, Vick will plead guilty in an official hearing next week. The exact plea deal hasn't been released, but this may be the beginning of the end for Michael Vick. He faces up to a year and a half in prison and possible expulsion from the National Football League.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Sports Illustrated investigative reporter George Dohrmann. He's been following the case.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thanks, George, for coming on.</s>Mr. GEORGE DOHRMANN (Reporter, Sports Illustrated): Thanks for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So less than a month ago, Michael Vick was saying he had nothing to do with the brutal dogfights that occurred on his Virginia property. What changed since then?</s>Mr. GEORGE DOHRMANN (Reporter, Sports Illustrated): Well, you know, three of his co-defendants cut deals with the government and agreed to testify against Vick. And then the government threatened him with racketeering charge, which carries, you know, five to 10-year penalty. And I think the deck was stacked against him at that point and he decided to take a lighter sentence than have to face fighting those charges.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So lighter sentence in terms of criminal activity. But for someone like this who as - is at the height of his career, what does this mean?</s>Mr. GEORGE DOHRMANN (Reporter, Sports Illustrated): Well, I think, you know, it's certainly up for debate, but I -there's the possibility that this ends Michael Vick's career, I mean, depending on how long he's away from the game. You know, if he's sentenced to 18 months, he's going to miss the next - this season and the following season. He's going to then have to, you know, apply for reinstatement to the league who'll probably suspend him indefinitely. It could be another season before they let him apply. And then the team has to be willing to take a chance on Michael Vick given what's sure to be some public backlash over his role in this dogfighting operation. So, you know, taking this plea is essentially, you know, Michael Vick putting his career at risk.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, this isn't actually the first time we've seen dogfighting charges in the NFL. So how were the previous charges handled and what was the outcome for the players?</s>Mr. GEORGE DOHRMANN (Reporter, Sports Illustrated): Well, the players that had previously been charged, you know, and Nate Newton was out of the league at that time. You know, Tyrone Wheatley mentioned dogfighting. He was never actually charged. We've had NBA players who've, you know, faced really light suspensions. You know, the difference is those guys were caught with a fighting dog or with one instance of attending a fight. Whereas, this case there's anything - there's nothing like it because simply it was such a huge operation and went on for, you know, six years.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There are allegations that the dog ring and perhaps Vick actually executed low-performing dogs. What's going on with that level of the investigation?</s>Mr. GEORGE DOHRMANN (Reporter, Sports Illustrated): Well, you know, his two - the initial indictment, which came out a while ago said that Vick, you know, executed some dogs as recently as April. And then in the statement of fact his - two of his co-defendants signed about a week ago, they acknowledged that Vick participated in the execution of dogs in April. So I think that was really, you know, a turning point because it was an accusation initially, and then when his two co-defendants came forward, guys who's he has been close to his whole life, came forward and said, yes, Michael Vick participated. And I think that was a tide turner in terms of public opinion even in some people who'd astonishedly supported Vick. Upon hearing his friends say that, we know - had no choice but in some ways to turn.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, George, we're going to certainly keep looking at this case, and I know you will. Thanks so much.</s>Mr. GEORGE DOHRMANN (Reporter, Sports Illustrated): Thanks for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: George Dohrmann is a reporter for Sports Illustrated. He spoke with us from Sports Byline studios in San Francisco.

In a new four-part television special based on his best-selling book, physicist Brian Greene takes on the nature of time and space, multiverses, and other hard-to-wrap-your-mind-around concepts in cosmology. Greene talks with guest host John Dankosky about the new series.

JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Up next, theoretical physics for the masses - well, at least for those of us who watch Public Television. In a new four-part TV series that starts next week, physicist and best-selling author Brian Greene brings extra dimensions, string theory and multiverses right into your living room. With lots of computer graphics and special effects, the four episodes tackle some of the looming questions in cosmology. Does time move in more than one direction? Are there extra dimensions that we can't see? Are there multiple universes? This isn't exactly physics 101.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: While you may not understand everything about theoretical physics by the end of part four, you'll probably be able to at least dazzle your dinner guests a bit with some cosmological small talk at Thanksgiving. Joining me now to talk more about it is my guest, Brian Greene, professor of math and physics at Columbia University. He's also the author of several best-selling books on physics, including "The Fabric of the Cosmos." This new series for NOVA is based on the book. Welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Greene.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: DR. BRIAN GREENE: Thank you.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So let's talk about the four parts of the series. What topics do you tackle here?</s>GREENE: Well, there are four shows. The first is about space, the second is about time, the third is about quantum mechanics, and the fourth is about the multiverse - the possibility of other universes.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: How did you choose these four?</s>GREENE: Well, the show is based on my book of the same title, "The Fabric of the Cosmos," and these are four themes that I weaved together throughout the chapters of that book. And the challenge was to take some pretty esoteric, heady material and to turn it into compelling television. And the team at NOVA, people - Joe McMaster, Jonathan Sahula, Julia Cort and Paula Apsell, at the top, did a great job of doing that.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: If you have questions for Brian Greene, 1-800-989-8255. That's 989-TALK. I'm sure you've got lots of big questions for him. It's a big-budget production. I mean, there's lots of animation, special effects. Did you feel like you needed all this to tell these very complex stories?</s>GREENE: Well, that, I think, is critical because when you're talking about space or time, what do you point the camera at? These are abstract ideas that are vital to our sense of ourselves and how the world works. Everything we do, everything we think, takes place in some region of space during some interval of time, so these are vital ideas, but they're still abstract. So what we do is, we use computer animation to take the viewer places that you can't literally go in the world around us to examine what the world would be like if time could run backwards, what the universe is like on fantastically small scales where space has vastly different properties from the space that we see in everyday life.</s>GREENE: We take the viewer to the possibility of other universes, by showing these other universes and features about them. We can't literally go to those universes because we don't even know if they exist. It's what the math suggests might be out there, and animation only needs math in order to give us a sense of what it would be like if these ideas are true.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I'm John Dankosky, and this is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. We're talking with Brian Greene, the theoretical physicist, and his brand-new series for NOVA called "The Fabric of the Cosmos." You can call us at 1-800-989-8255. That's 1-800-989-TALK. So who's the series meant for? Who's the target audience here?</s>GREENE: The target is very broad. When we sat down and tried to figure out what these programs would look like, we had in mind a young kid who might get excited about these ideas and go into science. We had in mind an older person who perhaps have heard about these ideas, but hasn't had the time to actually read a book on the subject but could take in a television program. So it is quite broad. And I should say when we did a similar program many years ago called "The Elegant Universe," similar in the sense of the way it was produced, the subject matter was quite different. That focused on string theory.</s>GREENE: I was shocked that, after the series, I got letters from parents of 5-year-olds who had watched the show repeatedly. They hadn't taken in all of the ideas, but the questions the five-year-old was asking were so potent and so sensible that they definitely were understanding some of it. So I think these programs can be taken in at a variety of levels. You can allow the ideas to wash over you and take in the great computer graphics, or you can try to really grapple with, to my mind, some of the most heady ideas our species has ever contemplated.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: A lot of this really has to do with the examples, the metaphors that you use. How do you arrive at some of these things, the idea that space is like a pool table, and I'm going to put down now a bowling ball on the poll table, and it's going to bend the space? How do you arrive at those, and how do you work through those to try to make sure they're things that people actually understand but are also scientifically accurate?</s>GREENE: Well, to me, when I do my own physics research, I'm never satisfied if when I'm doing my mathematical equations, my understanding is completely rooted in the symbols on the page. I'm always building a mental image in my own mind of what it is that I'm doing. So that, for me, is part of the process - always to have some visualization of what the equations are telling us, telling me if I'm doing my own work. When I go to write a book, I basically take those visualizations, strip away the mathematics, try to wrap up those visualizations and some side of compelling story or anecdote, and in that way, create something which communicates the ideas.</s>GREENE: When then the team at NOVA translates it to television, we usually start with those metaphors and those visualizations, and then, they take it to the next level by using the wonders of computer animation to bring them to life in a way that words on a page simply can't do.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I have to say that as much as the computer animation is fascinating, and it takes me to places that I couldn't imagine. Some of the most interesting stuff, to me, is the personal stories of these scientists, the people who were the groundbreakers here. Maybe you can talk about - a bit about telling their stories and how you want to weave them into all of this.</s>GREENE: Well, when I think about science, I think about it as surely the ideas that we have come to, but it's much more than that. It is a drama of exploration, a drama of discovery and are real people who have the courage to go out into the world, into the universe, into areas that we don't understand and hopefully come out the other side with some deep intuition or understanding about how the world works. So we tell a lot of those stories. We have Peter Higgs, physicist, whose idea of a particle called the Higgs boson is now being searched for at the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, Switzerland.</s>GREENE: We have the story of Alan Guth, who surprisingly to himself and everybody around him, came up with a new theory of how the universe began. A theory, that in due course has suggested that there might be many big bangs, not just one big bang, giving rise to many universes. And, of course, Newton always makes an appearance in these shows, as does Einstein. So those characters are there in a big way, as well.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: We're, of course, used to seeing Newton, you know, just a picture of him, but these guys, you set them up as rock stars, these real-life people.</s>GREENE: Well, you know, Einstein really was a rock star in his day. When he discovered the general theory of relativity, he became headline news in The New York Times.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: When we come back from our break, we'll take some of your phone calls at 1-800-989-8255. We're talking with Brian Greene, professor and - of math and physics at Columbia University and, of course, author of the book "The Fabric of the Cosmos." It's a brand-new series from NOVA, and you can see that in just a little bit. We'll be back with more right after this break.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm John Dankosky in for Ira. We're talking with Brian Greene, a professor of math and physics at Columbia University. He's also author of the book "The Fabric of the Cosmos." His new NOVA series is based on the book, starts next week. We want to hear a little bit from the Episode Four, on multiverses. We were talking a little bit about the people who you profiled who tell the story of physics. Let's hear the clip, and we'll talk about it afterward.</s>ANDREAS ALBRECHT: I'm very uncomfortable with the multiverse. To become solid science, it's got a lot of growing up to do.</s>DAVID GROSS: You know, it exists in the same way that, you know, angels might exists.</s>STEVEN WEINBERG: We have to make our bets, and I think, right now, the multiverse is a pretty good bet.</s>ALAN GUTH: I think there's a good chance that the multiverse is real, and that 100 years from now, people might be convinced that it's real.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: We heard from Andreas Albrecht, David Gross, Steven Weinberg and Alan Guth there. It's interesting how there's this little split, this battle. How did you set up this throughout the series because people are not exactly settled on some of the science, especially the multiverse?</s>GREENE: Well, the programs don't shy away from controversy because, again, one of the key things about science is while in school we learned it as a subject that's completed in the textbook. In reality, it's a living, breathing entity in which different physicists have different perspectives on where science should go, what's right and what's wrong. So the multiverse, in particular, is a very controversial subject. After all, you look around, you see one universe. There's no direct evidence for other universes. So why should you take the idea seriously?</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: And you're a believer in this, but leading into this, you say that some people think this could be a dead-end for science. Maybe you can explain both what that means and how you feel about it.</s>GREENE: Well, first, let's say I'm not a believer.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Yeah.</s>GREENE: I only believe in things for which there is experimental or observational support. I do think the idea of a multiverse is a powerful one that may be able to address some questions that we have not been able to address in any other way, and therefore, it's worthy of study and pursuing it and seeing where it leads. But the basic controversy is that some say if you're going to talk about realms that you can't visit, that you can't see, that you can't, in some way experiment with, you've gone beyond the bounds of science.</s>GREENE: Science should only focus upon those things that you can absolutely experiment with or observe with. To my mind, that is too limited a perspective of what science is, because we can have mathematics that fantastically describes what we can see and then that math can go further and describe things that we can't, perhaps, yet see. We've seen this play out many times. Einstein's math told him and the world who understood the math that there should be black holes.</s>GREENE: Einstein didn't believe that mathematics. He figured that was just too far out. But years later, we find that there are black holes. The same is true of the big bang. His math showed that the universe should have begun in this compressed state and then expanded. He didn't believe it. There's now evidence for it. So the point is, math can take us places that we haven't yet been able to see, and therefore, we can't be so close-minded, in my perspective, to completely wall ourselves off from things that we can't yet observe.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I want to get to some people who definitely want to ask you questions. Let's go to Tommy who's calling from Kentucky. Hey, Tommy, go ahead.</s>TOMMY: Yes. Mine is with time travel. If time slows down and theoretically stops at the speed of light, with the neutrinos that go faster than the speed of light, would time travel not be possible now?</s>GREENE: Well, that's why most of us don't believe the results about the neutrinos going faster than the speed of light. Because you're right, if indeed, we take Einstein's idea seriously, and the data that these recent experiments suggest showing that neutrinos go faster than the speed of light, there would be a crack in time. In a sense, we would be able to send signals to the past. So most of us believe that those experiments are probably not going to stand up to scrutiny. Even the experimenters themselves put it out as something that they want the physics community and the rest of the world to try to poke holes in to see what they did wrong.</s>GREENE: As yet, nobody has done that, but you need independent confirmation of such a wild possibility of going faster than the speed of light. We're going to wait and see what happens. I would be thrilled if the data does stand up to scrutiny. We live for this kind of revolution in our understanding of the world. I don't think this is one of those moments.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Catherine is calling from Menlo Park, California. Hi there, Catherine. You're on with Brian Greene.</s>CATHERINE: Hi, Brian. How are you?</s>GREENE: Good. Thanks.</s>CATHERINE: I'm fascinated by the idea of multiple universes. When I took an astronomy class in college, they taught us that the universe is expanding, and I spent nights wondering, into what – into what is the universe expanding. And I was wondering, has there been any research or anything recently come up in terms of the physics or mathematics to indicate if the universe is expanding into a vacuum, or what might be the substance or particles that the universe would be expanding into?</s>GREENE: Well, in a traditional picture, where there's one universe, the idea is that when the universe expands, it's not expanding into a pre-existing realm. Because what would that realm be? It should be part of the universe, after all. Rather, the traditional idea is that space is stretching, creating the new space that it then inhabits. So that's the way in which the universe can get bigger and bigger.</s>GREENE: In this new idea of the multiverse, however, the notion that the caller had in mind starts to come a little closer to what the math is suggesting, that there is a larger cosmos within which our universe is expanding. Our universe would be viewed as one bubble, if you will, in a big cosmic bubble bath with each bubble being universe upon universe upon universe. So there would be a larger container in some sense for our universe to expand within if this new picture is correct. I underscore if. This is, again, very hypothetical, cutting-edge ideas.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: These the universes bouncing up against one another, moving farther apart as the universe expands or the space expands?</s>GREENE: Yes. As the space between the universes expand...</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Exactly.</s>GREENE: ...then the universes themselves will be driven apart. However, if two universes are born very close together, something we talk about in the program, then as they expand, they can smash into each other. And if that were to happen, if our universe got hit by another, it could leave observable data in the cosmic microwave background radiation, which is a way that we might gain observational evidence for other universes.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: OK. So Mark(ph) on Facebook has a question for you about some of these other universes. Since it's believed that our rules of physics may not apply to other universes, is it possible that each universe has certainly particles that do behave the same, like the quarks? Could this be the reason they act so bizarre? Wouldn't this be consistent with relativity? This is from Mark on Facebook, Brian.</s>GREENE: Well, the other universes in this multiverse proposal would, indeed, have other kinds of particles and would be governed by laws that, perhaps, would look different from the laws that we are familiar with here. So there'd be a whole range of possible physical features that one would encounter if you could journey from one universe to another. The weirdest thing of all - and I do consider this weird, and we discuss this in the program and many physicists give their perspective on it - the math seems to suggests that if the other universes are out there, then some of them actually do look close to ours. Some of them, in fact, have copies of us out there. You and I are having this conversation in some of these other universes way out there in this wider cosmos.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: But potentially, a limitless number of copies of us in other universes. So it's not as though another me and another you are talking to another, but millions of other mes and you were talking to each other.</s>GREENE: Absolutely right, as strange as that sounds.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: As unusual as that is. Let's go to John(ph) in Sioux City, Iowa. Hi there, John. Go ahead. You're on SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>JOHN: Hey. Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, in one universe, this one, I have a question about black holes. And the other one, I have a question about the neutrino thing. So, I guess, I'll ask the black hole one. When light comes toward a black hole, is it getting sucked in or is it because space, time has been contorted so much that it's like in a fractal pattern and it just can't get out?</s>GREENE: Well, it's more that space is bent in such a way that the light in some sense is flowing downhill. Think of ball rolling down the side of a mountain. It rolls down to the bottom. Similarly, in the universe, if light is heading toward a black hole, the black hole warps space sort of like the hill of a mountain, and light rolls down that hill much like that ball goes down the side of the mountain. And in that way, it gets sucked in.</s>GREENE: Now, let's me say that other question that you had, we don't have, perhaps, time to answer it now, but I will say that you should look at the World Science Festival website Wednesday night, November 2, at 10 p.m., because we're going to have a live conversation about the program that airs that night in which you and the rest of the digital audience can ask any questions that you like. And I'll do my best to answer as many as I can.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: And again, this is worldsciencefestival.com, is where you can find this, right?</s>GREENE: Exactly.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: We're talking with Brian Greene, his new "NOVA" series is coming out next month. If you want to join the conversation, it's 1-800-989-8255. That's 1-800-989-TALK. Let's go to Rick, who's calling from Palo Alto, California. Hi there, Rick.</s>RICK: Hey, Dr. Greene. So I – we've had a couple of fundamental open questions that, basically, all of our best efforts have failed to be able to answer, you know, uniting gravity with the other forces in a quantum theory, and more recently, dark energy and dark matter. And all this seems to suggests that we may need a radical departure from the stuff we've been doing up until now. And I wanted to get your comments on a departure that's both radical but also curious that I've heard about recently called entropic gravity with the - basically saying that gravity is not a fundamental force. I mean, maybe that could go someway to explaining some of these open questions. And what were your thoughts on that?</s>GREENE: Well, it is a very interesting idea, which suggests that gravity, as you say, is not as fundamental an element of the makeup of reality as we once we thought. The way I like to think about it is temperature. We all know what it means for something to be hot or cold. But the real meaning of hot and cold is not that macroscopic feeling we've learned over the course of 100 years, that if something is hot, its atoms are moving very quickly. Or if it's cold, its atoms are moving very slowly. So temperature is an emergent property of the speed of the constituent particles. And maybe the case that gravity emerges from some more fundamental underpinning in much the same as the temperature emerges from this fundamental idea of the speed particles.</s>GREENE: And the proposals are on the table for how that might happen, it's very controversial. It stirred up a lot of excitements in the physics community. I'm not convinced yet, but it does have all of the features that many of us have thought would one day emerge in a deeper understanding, that space may not be fundamental, time may not be fundamental. Gravity, which is curves in space and time, therefore, would not be fundamental. And we are probing to see what that more fundamental structure might be. So it's an exciting time, but by no means is this idea settled.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Any of these ideas that you're talking about here, are they dependent on just – on one thing going right, going wrong? And in the research, you talked about the neutrinos, whether or not this is a finding that we can really hang our hats on here. How much of all the work that you're doing is hanging on one or two big things that we could find in the next, say, 10 or 20 years?</s>GREENE: Well, if we could get some new insight from the Large Hadron Collider, find some of the new particles that our theories have suggested might be out there, that would be a pivotal moment because it would really show that mathematics that we've been pursuing for decades is on the right track. It's pointing us in the direct correction. If we don't find anything at the Large Hadron Collider, that is fantastically interesting because it means that many of the ideas that we have thought were true are not, which means we have to go back to the drawing board. And again, that is great. The problem is how do you go to funding agencies and say, well, you have this big machine and it turned up nothing, and that's so exciting, we want to build another machine to pursue that further?</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: That's an expensive drawing board.</s>GREENE: It's an expensive drawing board, but it's a vital idea because it may turn out - I hope not - maybe we'll find something great at the Large Hadron Collider. But if we don't, that's a fantastically interesting result. And I hope people are at least aware of that as a potential outcome and something that should drive us forward.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I'm John Dankosky, and this is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. Let's go to Paul in Orlando, Florida. Hi there, Paul. Go ahead.</s>PAUL: Hi. Hi, Dr. Greene. I read "Fabric of the Cosmos." It was worth every minute I spent with it.</s>GREENE: Thank you.</s>PAUL: Two things, quickly. In conversations with other colleagues, recently, we've just been talking about quantum mechanics. It's been around for over 100 years. It's provided a lot of great science, but there doesn't seem to be any great challenges to it. Are people too accepting of it or there's a lot of the - no pun intended - uncertainty about it in areas, should there be a major assault on quantum mechanics? And two, will your show address entanglement at all?</s>GREENE: Two good questions. So for the second one, yes, our quantum program, which is the third in this series - I guess that means November 16, if I've got that right. One of the main ideas is quantum entanglements. So we go through the whole development of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen and John Bell and all that great stuff, which suggests, from the experiment, that something you do in one location can immediately affect something in another location. Again, one of these crazy ideas but comes out of the math quantum mechanics.</s>GREENE: And for your first question, yes, I think there are some gaping holes in quantum mechanics. Not everybody agrees with that. We need to understand how the active measurement affects the system. This is still up in the air after a century, and we're working on it and, hopefully, more and more people will.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So what exactly does a theoretical physicist do all day? In the second of SCIENCE FRIDAY's Desktop Diaries series, Brian Greene takes us into his home office for a tour of his tidy workspace using his desk mainly for calculations, often executed with pencil and paper, a tradition that dates back to his childhood when his father would give him 30-digit by 30-digit multiplication problems to work out.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Here to tell us more about the tour is our multimedia editor, Flora Lichtman. Hi, Flora.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN, BYLINE: Hi, John.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So this is interesting. You got a chance to visit Brian in his workspace.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN, BYLINE: Yes, and everybody else has this chance, too. If you've been loving this interview, you can go to our website and see where Brian works. And, you know, the premise of this series is that our desk trinkets maybe reveal a little about us. And in Brian Greene's case, there were very few desk trinkets. It was a very clean space. So actually, I wanted to ask you, what do you think it - you know, do you think it means anything about you that you work in such a clean area?</s>GREENE: Well, it means I've certainly changed because I think I've mentioned awhile ago, when I was in college, I was very, very sloppy. My room was voted the sloppiest on campus, and it's in the college yearbook. I mean, I walk around and I'd heard like little Chinese mustard packets squirting under my feet. But I found that I couldn't think clearly if I was surrounded by a clutter. If I've got a file of stuff that I haven't looked at for a few months, I realized I should throw it away because I'm never going to look at it. And I just think more clearly in a clean space.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN, BYLINE: Yeah. It's not piles of papers like you see in some of these scientists' workspace.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Well, actually, in the shows, in the "NOVA" shows, some of the scientists have some pretty - very messy workspaces, let's just say.</s>GREENE: Yes. Saul Perlmutter, who just won the Nobel Prize, he has a pretty cluttered space you'll see in the show.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: We see clips of your dad in this video, who was a performer. Do you feel like your following in his footsteps now, getting out on the green screen, getting out on stage?</s>GREENE: Vaguely. You know, my dad was a performer. He was a singer and quite a showman. And I guess, maybe some of it rubbed off in some way.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I'm wondering if this idea of using a pencil and paper is still vital to what you do. I mean, is it important to have that pencil there to (unintelligible)?</s>GREENE: For me, it is. I mean, I can imagine a generation or two from now, people won't know what a pencil is, and it will just change the way they do things. For instance, when I write books, I do them purely on a computer. I cannot write a book on a piece of paper. When it comes to calculations, I have to do them on a piece of paper.</s>FLORA LICHTMAN, BYLINE: So no iPad?</s>GREENE: Not yet, but I will.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Well, we've just about run out of time. So I'd like to thank my guest, Brian Greene, professor of math and physics at Columbia University, author of the book "The Fabric of the Cosmos." His new "NOVA" series based on the book starts next week. Brian, thanks so much for joining us once again.</s>GREENE: My pleasure.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: And thanks also to Flora Lichtman, multimedia editor for SCIENCE FRIDAY. You can check out this video, right?</s>FLORA LICHTMAN, BYLINE: Go to our website, sciencefriday.com, to see Brian Greene's desk.

A new report in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases says evidence that the flu shot offers protection in adults aged 65 years or older is lacking. Host John Dankosky and guests discuss the report, the upcoming flu season, and whether seniors should get the flu vaccine. Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP), professor in the School of Public Health, adjunct professor in the Medical School, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minn. William Schaffner, president, National Foundation for Infectious Diseases, professor and chair, Department of Preventive Medicine, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, Tenn.

JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm John Dankosky, filling in for Ira Flatow. A new analysis out this week says the seasonal flu shot may not be working as well as we'd like to think. Writing in the journal "Lancet Infectious Diseases," a group of researchers says evidence for protection in adults age 65 or over is lacking.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: For younger adults aged 18 to 65, there's evidence that the vaccine gives some protection, but it varies from year to year. The researchers say that some seasons' protection is greatly reduced or even absent. So why the big push to get a flu shot every year? The CDC still says that everyone over 6 months needs to get vaccinated.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So is there any harm in getting a vaccine that might not even help you? That's what we'll be talking about in this first hour. If you want to get in on the conversation, you can give me a call. Our number is 1-800-989-8255. That's 1-800-989-TALK. If you're on Twitter, you can tweet us your questions by writing the @ sign followed by scifri.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: If you want more information on what we'll be talking about this hour, go to our website at www.sciencefriday.com, where you will find links to our topic.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Let me introduce our guests. Michael Osterholm is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, and a professor of environmental health sciences, at the University of Minnesota's School of Public Health. He joins us from the studios of Minnesota Public Radio in St. Paul. Michael Osterholm, welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Thank you very much.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: William Schaffner is president of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases. He's also professor and chair of the Department of Preventive Medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville. Welcome back to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Schaffner.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: Hi, John, good to be with you.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Again, you can join us at 1-800-989-TALK. Michael Osterholm, first to you. Let's talk about this report. You looked at over 5,500 studies on flu vaccine, and of all those studies over all these years, you decided that about 30 studies were useful. Really?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, we didn't look at that many studies. We looked at that many articles to identify the studies. And ultimately, we came up with 176 studies that were published among those journals. And of those 176, 73 were randomized controlled trials, where that kind of study which is considered the gold standard of measuring the effect of an intervention like a vaccine, where it was a double-blind placebo-controlled trial.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Some got vaccines; some got a placebo. We didn't know who it was until the code was broken. And then we looked at 103 observational studies. These are the kinds of studies where we follow what goes on in the clinic and using some very specific criteria to make sure that we don't bias who is vaccinated, who is actually evaluated. We looked at those, too.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And it's from those 176 we came up with 31 that really provided us, we believe, the very best and the most accurate information about what's happening with the flu vaccine.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So based on this analysis, what do we know about the vaccine's effectiveness? Let's talk about adults first, not seniors, not kids but the big path of adults.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, the overall effect of the trivalent inactivated vaccine, which is the shot that we think about, it's the one that has been around largely unchanged for a number of decades. And in that case, when we look at that, in eight of 12 vaccine seasons, or we study influenza during influenza season, we found that the vaccine was protective, so in two-thirds of the studies.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And when it was protective, it was protective at about a 59-percent rate across all the different studies. When we looked for live attenuated vaccine, the puff that goes up the nose that has been around more recently, there we could not identify any studies that either from an observational disease - or observational study standpoint or from an actual vaccine randomized control trial standpoint, showed that the vaccine was effective.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: But in kids, that nasal vaccine did work a little bit better.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: In fact we found just the opposite. Really the best news in this entire study was that among those studies of children, all eight studies, the live attenuated vaccine in children under eight years of age actually worked quite well. It was consistent protection. The pool, the average protection level was 83 percent.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: However, there were only two studies in children of the inactivated vaccine in that same age group, both conducted by the same group, a year apart. In the first year, they found the vaccine worked 66 percent of the time. And in the second year, they found it worked minus-7 percent of the time or not a measurable effect.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: So from that standpoint, we obviously think that the information about the live attenuated vaccine is very important in terms of everyday clinical practice.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Now, of course, the part that a lot of people are reading is how this affects seniors. What did you find for those 65 and older?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, this is where it's more troubling, and understandably, there's going to be some absence of data since the seniors have been recommended to get the trivalent inactivated vaccine since 1960. And because it's unethical to do studies where you withhold a vaccine from someone once it's been recommended, it's understandable that there'd be a relative absence of randomized control trials because you couldn't allocate someone to a placebo.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: However, even looking - trying to look at observational studies, those that are just following clinical practice, we could only find one study that suggested there was protection that - in fact, I say suggested - show that there was protection in that population.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: I would urge that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but I think that the amount of the protection is actually difficult to measure. Even in this year's data for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was reported several days ago for the 2009-2010 influenza season, they were unable, in their observational studies, to demonstrate a significantly protective effect in those 65 years of age and older.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So you're not finding studies that show it's effective. We're not finding studies, though, that show it isn't effective, right?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, that's actually not true in the sense of how you want to talk about effective. Back in the early part of the last decade, there were a number of studies that came out that suggested that up to half or even 70 percent of the mortality in those 65 years of age and older could be eliminated by using influenza vaccine.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: We now know that in retrospect, those studies suffered from basically a bias of who got vaccinated and who didn't. It was basically a health vaccinee effect: Those over 65 who were healthy got vaccinated. Those were end-of-life or frail did not. That was pretty evident quickly when the data with the - despite the fact of seeing a major increase among the number of people over age 65 getting vaccinated, there was not a commiserate change in the mortality.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: But in addition, we found in a number of these studies that the highest benefit for preventing death actually occurred during the summer months, when the virus wasn't even around.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Since that time, there's been a series of studies done by five different groups in three different countries, which demonstrate some moderate impact of the vaccine that isn't measure in vaccine efficacy or effectiveness. And in those studies, it's possible that as high as eight percent of hospitalizations are eliminated, but it's much more difficult to determine or to more specifically elucidate the benefit to those over age 65.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: If you want to join our conversation, 1-800-989-8255. That's 989-TALK. We'll talk your questions about the flu in just a minute. But I want to get to Dr. Schaffner. What's surprising, to you, in this analysis? What stands out to you?</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: Well, actually, those of us who are involved in influenza vaccine are familiar with these data and would largely agree, with some footnotes, to what Michael is saying. They throw out some studies that we wouldn't if we looked at them, and we've long known that influenza vaccine is not a perfect vaccine. We need a better influenza vaccine.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: But I think that Michael gets vaccinated every year. So do I. And we all promote the immunization of people age six months and older in the United States because, as he says, even in most years, there is, at least, moderate benefit in most age groups. Influenza vaccine will if not eliminating the disease completely, modify the illness so that you do prevent some cases of pneumonia, hospitalization and death.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: I like to paraphrase Voltaire: While we wait perfection, that can be the greatest enemy of the current good. And we have a good vaccine; we don't have a great vaccine. We need to use the good vaccine.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Is there an argument, Dr. Schaffner, though, that by using the good vaccine, we're not spending enough time, enough effort, enough money to try to get a better vaccine?</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: I think actually that was correct. Also, the vaccine was so incredibly safe that there was not motivation, and there wasn't financial motivation for companies or the government until about five years ago to invest anything really worth talking about in trying to create a better flu vaccine.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: But within the last five years, I think that there's been more investigation into trying to create a better influenza vaccine than there has been in the previous 40, and also though they are stepwise increments - just in the last two years, we've had - licensed a high-dose vaccine for seniors and now the intradermal vaccine.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: Those aren't miracle drugs by any means. They are modest advances over what we have. But Francis Collins, the director of the NIH, said just this last weekend that he anticipates that maybe by 2016 we'll have at least a candidate universal influenza vaccine because of research.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: And what that means is that we all know that the influenza virus changes so very frequently, that's why we have to create a new vaccine virtually every year. If we had a universal vaccine, one that would protect against the vast majority of strains, maybe we all wouldn't have to get vaccinated except maybe every 10 years, the way we get our tetanus shots. And that would be a huge advance.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: We're not there yet, but there's a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Michael Osterholm, do you think we're that close to a universal vaccine?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, I think you have to break this apart, really into two totally different component pieces. The study that we present here is a small part of a much larger effort that our center has undertaken for the last two years to really look at influenza vaccines from cradle to grave, from the very basic research and development and finance funding, all the way to consumer acceptance and how well and effective they work.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And I think that we actually find ourselves in a Catch-22 that is a very, very critical moment for us in terms of really understanding where we're going with this. I would possibly beg to differ a bit with Dr. Schaffner about how we've talked about these vaccines.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: He and his colleagues have recently called them maximally effective, excellent vaccines, miracle of modern science, and what we have found is that we really feel very confident the results we present here are the best results. We can't fudge them. You can argue, and I've seen, Bill, your comments about serology, we would still disagree with you on whether or not you include those studies or not.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: But what the really important part that we found is that we have worked so hard to get people to get vaccine, we've promoted it, and understandably, we want people to get vaccinated, I'm not here on the show today to say don't get vaccinated, we have left people with the sense that this is a really good vaccine.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Now, we have interviewed a number of venture capitalists. We have interviewed a number of the start-up companies who have new and novel technologies, not for example the Fluzone that Bill talked about, that high-dose vaccine, which is just more of the same old vaccine, and if you think that the vaccine matches the problem, why is more antibody going to make a difference? I don't know.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: But the point being is that in fact we have a vaccine today that's holding back new development because why invest a billion dollars if you already have a good vaccine.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Let's take a break there. You can join us, 800-989-8255, as we talk about the seasonal flu here on SCIENCE FRIDAY.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I'm John Dankosky. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm John Dankosky. This hour we're talking about the flu. My guests are Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy and a professor of environmental health sciences at the University of Minnesota School of Public Health. William Schaffner is with us, as well, president of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases, professor and chair of the Department of Preventive Medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville. Let's go to the phones. Wendy(ph) is calling from Patterson, California. Hi, Wendy, go ahead.</s>WENDY: Hi, I was calling to ask why we had to get a flu vaccine every year because some of the other vaccines only get when we're young, that we just get once. And you guys touched on that, that the virus changes, and that's the reason. I would like to know, like, how it changes every year. And are we causing or driving that change at all by vaccinating?</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Good question, Michael Osterholm?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, first of all, we're not changing it by vaccinating. We're not driving the vaccine. Mother Nature and evolution is doing that just fine. I think one of the other things we learned in our study here is there are certain dogmas in the influenza world that we really need to take a step back and look at.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: For example the idea of vaccine match and how well the vaccine does. We looked carefully at that in our studies, and we could find not rhyme nor reason as to how well the match for a given year really matched up with how well the vaccine did.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Look no further than the data we've presented in the paper from the H1N1 pandemic vaccine strain, where there we had virtually a perfect match, and in young, healthy adults in Europe, where they actually did use what we call an adjuvant, a chemical that actually boosts the immune response, the overall protection was only 69 percent.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And if you look in this country, the data from the CDC showed that where we didn't use the adjuvanted vaccines in that same population, the protection was 59 percent so that even there with a very, very close match, it didn't seem to show us the results one would think if you had a close match.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: So I think we have a lot more work to do, and we've actually tried in this subsequent publication that will coming out to actually look at that much more carefully. And I think the more we learn about this, the less I think we may know about it.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I have another call from Cathy(ph), and a few callers want to ask this question. So let's go to Cathy in Abington, Massachusetts. Hi there, Cathy.</s>CATHY: Hi, thanks for taking my call. My question is about the myth that you can't catch the flu from the flu vaccine. And yet since the H1N1, I've had my family immunized, and three out of the last four years, three different ones of us caught the flu really badly. And it's kind of making me not want to get it. And I know it's a myth, but if you could just explain why that seems to happen. I hear it so often.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Dr. Schaffner, explain the myth for us.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: Well, it is a myth. You cannot get flu from the flu vaccine. And any number of things can explain what Cathy is talking about. The first is that, you know, we're immunizing right now, and there are people who have colds, and you can get the vaccine, and if you then get a cold four days later, you say where did I get that cold, and then you are likely to attribute it to the vaccine that you got a few days earlier.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: And as Michael just said, the vaccine is not perfect. He cited success rates in young, healthy adults of 59 and 69 percent. I look at that as the jar half-full. He says it's half-empty. And so even though you're vaccinated, you can get illness on occasion. There's no doubt about it.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: What about other side effects, especially for older people, Dr. Schaffner?</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: Well, it's an incredibly safe vaccine. We give the vaccine in the literally hundreds of millions of doses, and other than really a bit of a sore arm, there are few serious adverse effects. It's one of the most incredibly safe vaccines there is. And indeed, apropos of Mike's comments, that's one of the disincentives for companies to invest a lot of money in creating a new vaccine because this one is so safe.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Go ahead, please.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Can I just follow up on that? Because I think that, first of all, I want to be really clear. I'm not saying the glass is half-full or half-empty. It's a very straightforward point. If we talk about the vaccine doing its very best, when it's closely matched to the circulating strain, the H1N1 pandemic vaccine was as close a match as we've had for almost 40 years, meaning that the strain did not change in any measurable way that should or could impact vaccine effectiveness.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And all we're pointing out is even with that, we still only got 59 to 69 percent. Do I think that's a lot better than zero? Absolutely. And when I tell people to get vaccinated for that benefit, absolutely. But it begs the question about what do we really know about this vaccine. How well is it really, really protecting?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And I think that that's the challenge that we're facing right now is in a sense we've oversold how well this vaccine's working, which doesn't mean that in fact we think we shouldn't get it. A 50-percent advantage is a heck of a lot better than zero.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: But it's holding us back from driving us towards better vaccines because who's going to invest a billion dollars trying to bring a new vaccine to market that's very different than this vaccine when you've got the current conditions: universally recommended, everybody says it's very effective, excellent vaccine, maximally effective, it's considered to be safe, and it's readily available.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: So I think that what we're trying to say is unless we want to stay with this basic vaccine antigen, the protein that's in here that's causing us to fool the body into thinking we've been infected, which is now over 60 years old, do we want to stick with that? We're going to have to acknowledge that we really do have a lot of questions that haven't been answered and that hopefully this study is starting to draw some of them out.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: I've heard people who just several years ago are quoted widely as to how good this vaccine are now saying today oh, we always knew that it wasn't that good. That's not a credibility gap I think that can be easily jumped, and it's not one that's going to get us to that next vaccine.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: What is it that you measure, exactly, to know whether or not it's effective? And hasn't that changed over the years?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, if you're asking about effective from the standpoint of illness outcome, that's what we're really looking at. What you want to know are what are those things that you can say with certainty. For example, one of the problems we have in looking at deaths, deaths are caused by many things that may be influenza-like illnesses.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: If you're looking at influenza-like illness, as Dr. Schattner just said, you know, 20 to - five to 20 percent of illnesses may be influenza, but a lot of them are not. And so one of the things that I think is very important in effectively really measuring what the vaccine does is you have to know were you infected or not.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And our study actually looked at those studies, which actually showed that. We had a number of studies done during the 1960s through the 2000 time period that use serology, blood testing. Yet in the 1950s, researchers showed that if you vaccinated someone and then they got infected, you could culture the virus from them, they were actually ill, and about - very rarely did they ever show a four-fold antibody rise or one that would give you reason to think they were infected.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Such studies were recently done that just demonstrated that again. Seventy-five percent of the people basically who were vaccinated with a trivalent inactivated vaccine never showed a four-fold antibody rise.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: So there you have such a strong bias against finding the real answer and over-inflating the importance of the vaccine. So we knew to take a step back and say: What really gives us the data to show these vaccines work or don't work?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: And then once we have that understanding, we can move forward and say what do we need for vaccine? Flu is a critical disease. We need to have vaccines that are effective. We should use what we have until we get those effective vaccines. But we can't stand in the way of getting new vaccines by telling people what we have right now is good enough.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Getting back to this idea of it being unethical to do studies on people over 65 because we believe that everyone had to get the flu vaccine, where does this leave us? Is it time to start doing these studies in older people now?</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: Well, what will happen is that as new vaccine candidates come up, they will be studied in comparison to the standard vaccine. We won't be able to withhold vaccines from anyone, but we can compare the new with the standard going forward.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: And as a matter of fact, I'm a volunteer in just such a trial now. I got my influenza vaccine, but I don't know whether I got the standard one or a new one. We'll find out at the end of the trial.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I want to ask you, Dr. Osterholm, a lot of senior may be offered a vaccine called Fluzone. Can you tell us what that is?</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Well, Fluzone is basically the same kind of influenza vaccine, the trivalent inactivated vaccine, with four times higher the dose, in terms of the antigen, which in turn should induce more antibody.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: I think that again we'll wait for the data to come out. Clearly they make more antibody, but that is a long stretch. We have to understand that today, we have equated making antibody to this specific antigen as also being equal to protection, and we now know that's not true. There is clearly a correlation.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: But we know there's a big difference. For example, the fact that we have to get vaccinated every year shows you that somehow the immune system's not picking this up. And when you put that into perspective with what happened with the pandemic, we had a number of 70- and 80-year-olds during the pandemic who surely had some innate protection against that virus based on just looking at the population risk of getting infected, and it turned out that these were people who were exposed 60 years before or more to that same circulating type of virus, and 60 years later, their bodies still recognized the fact that they had seem a similar virus 60 years ago.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: It had induced antibody or a number of other parts of their immune system so that they were protected. That's what we need to move towards. The idea that we have to vaccinate every year already says that we're not doing a very good job of taking that immune system we have and turning it on in the right way to protect ourselves.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Best thing we've got, we should do it, but it's surely, surely far from what we can do and must do.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Well, I want to thank our guests. Michael Osterholm is director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy and a professor of environmental health sciences at the University of Minnesota's School of Public Health. Thank you so much for joining us.</s>MICHAEL OSTERHOLM: Thank you.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Thanks also to William Schaffner, president of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases. He's also professor and chair of the Department of Preventive Medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville. Thank you, doctor.</s>WILLIAM SCHAFFNER: A pleasure, John.

"News & Notes" Web producer Geoffrey Bennett talks about a new study that shows the Internet potentially leading to the demise of neighborhood newspapers. He also offers an update on the top stories on the show's blog, "News & Views."

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Coming up, we've got our weekly Blogger's Roundtable. But first, a look at what's happening online.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Here with me is NEWS & NOTES Web producer Geoffrey Bennett. Hey, Geoff.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Hey, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So a new study shows the Internet is posing a major threat to local newspapers. Tell me about that.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Right. It's a study out from Harvard University that finds that people are favoring the Internet over television and newspapers as their primary source of news. And it's a trend that could eventually lead to the demise of local newspapers. Our researcher studied traffic to 160 news Web sites over a yearlong period and found that because more people are getting their news from the Web, especially news blogs and search engines and major sites like the New York Times, it reduces the influence of where they live, and by extension, makes neighborhood newspapers less necessary.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You know, I was at - recently at the National Association of Black Journalist Conference and a woman was saying that basically - she was only half joking - gallows humor - that Craigslist used to eat their lunch, now it's eating their dinner and their breakfast too. So it's also the ad revenues. But I imagine that this trend could hurt small black newspapers. What do you think?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Exactly. I mean, any trend that that spells trouble for mainstream media spells, disaster for black - small black news organizations. So it will mean that the nation's black papers have to adapt their business models and find innovative ways to several audiences, especially because these papers can't just replace newspaper readers with online readers because at this point, as the study points out, the sale of a newspaper is still more profitable than drawing that same reader to a Web site.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what are folks talking about on our blog?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: They're talking about Michael Vick, they're talking about illegal immigration, and they're also talking about last week's Blogger Roundtable. You remember that there was an intense personal exchange between two of the guests about black women who date outside the race.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, yes. I do remember.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: And so that sparked a dialogue online, to say the least. And our folks can go to our blog to revisit that segment and read the comments about it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So we use the blogs sometimes to reach out and try to get people to tell us stories about their own lives. And what are we working on now?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Well, we're trying to put a face on the war on the Iraq. So we're looking for servicemen and women who have recently returned from the war as well as their family members - of soldiers who are currently deployed. And so we're looking for those people, and we're also looking for folks who have homes in foreclosure and those who have trouble paying their mortgages because of changes in their adjustable rate. And people can contact us at our blog.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, definitely, very important that you share your stories with us because those are the stories we want to tell. And, Geoff, thanks again.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Geoff Bennett is the Web producer for NEWS & NOTES.

NPR East Africa Correspondent Gwen Thompkins gives an update on the Bush administration considering Eritrea as a state that sponsors terrorism, Ethiopia's release of more political prisoners, and earthquake tremors rocking Nairobi.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time now for Africa Update. Ethiopia releases more political prisoners and tremors rock Nairobi.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But first, an update on the rising diplomatic tensions between the U.S. and Eritrea. The Bush administration is considering adding Eritrea to its list of states that sponsor terrorism.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, I spoke with Gwen Thompkins, NPR's correspondent in East Africa.</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Well, the latest is that the top American diplomat for Africa, Jendayi Frazier has said that the U.S. is mounting a case against Eritrea, this tiny nation by the Red Sea, a case that might put Eritrea on its list of states that sponsor terrorism. Now this is a big deal. This would be a big deal if Eritrea makes this list. As you mentioned, the list includes Iran, Syria, North Korea, Sudan and Cuba - some pretty heavy hitters.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So why exactly would Eritrea merit a place on the list?</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Well, Jendayi Frazier says there's persuasive evidence showing that Eritrea has been selling arms to the most radicalized elements of the Islamic Movement that once controlled Mogadishu's Somalia. This view jives with the United Nations' report linking Eritrean arms sales to insurgents in Mogadishu, and the insurgents are said to include members of al-Qaida. But Eritrea has vehemently denied these allegations.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what actually happens to a nation when the U.S. calls it a state sponsor of terrorism?</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Well, it's bad news for that country on the economic front. Countries on this list are not eligible for U.S. aid except for emergency humanitarian aid. And the U.S. also imposes all manner of economic sanctions on the country and on companies that do business with the country. There will be sanctions on arms-related sales to Eritrea, for instance. There would also be a real resistance from the United States within the purview of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund if Eritrea were ever to apply for a loans or any other type of aid.</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: On the diplomatic front, the U.S. may or may not maintain its embassy in Asmara. It's safe to say that there will be no U.S. ambassador in Eritrea if Eritrea were to make that list. Now, Frazier has also said that the U.S. is not trying to break ties with Eritrea altogether, and there is still time for the situation to improve. But the Eritrean government has not admitted to any of the allegations and, at present, appears unlikely to do so.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Eritrea has gone to war with Ethiopia many times. Now Ethiopia, its rival, has had another batch of political prisoner's release. What can you tell us about that?</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: This is a group of 30 or so opposition party members who have been held without charge since elections in Ethiopia in 2005. Now, these 2005 elections were heavily contested. The opposition party members won quite a few seats in parliament - not enough seats to push Prime Minister Meles Zenawi out of power, but quite a few seats. And once the election was called, the opposition party members cried foul. They believe that the election had been rigged. In fact, there were many European Union monitors who also believe that there were an awful lot of irregularities during that election. Violence broke out in 2005 - at two different points in 2005 - and quite a few people were killed, just under 200, and several thousand people were put in jail.</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Now over the past few weeks, we have already seen one well-publicized release of political prisoners there in Ethiopia, and now we're seeing the second one. But still, more are believed to be languishing in prison.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So why now? Why these releases now?</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Well, Ethiopia is under heavy international scrutiny these days. Its role in supporting Somalia's transitional government hinges on its claim that Ethiopia is in favor of democracy and stability on the Horn of Africa. And you can't be in favor of democracy and stability on the Horn of Africa if you got a big political mess on your hands as Meles Zenawi has.</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Ethiopia is also courting all manner of international business to take interest in the country. And there's the millennium celebration coming up, which will cast a bright light on the current government. This is Ethiopia celebrating the millennium about seven years after everyone else is celebrating the millennium, but they're on - the orthodox there are on a different calendar. So now would be a good time for the Ethiopian government to put its best face forward.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Finally, we've been hearing about some seismic tremors in Nairobi. Have you felt any of them?</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Yes, I have experienced some of the seismic activity here in Nairobi. It's sort of odd to think of earthquakes or tremors happening in this part of the world, but indeed they do. And in fact, the tremors that are felt here in Nairobi are related to a volcanic activity that's occurring in Northern Tanzania. As you know, Tanzania and Kenya share a border.</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Volcanic activity there has prompted several tremors over the past several weeks. Within this past week, there have been two earthquakes in Northern Tanzania, measuring at about 5.2. And their ripple effects are being felt here in Nairobi, about a hundred miles away. No one seems to have been injured or killed in any of this activity. It's just unsettling. So even without the political instability here on the Horn of Africa, there's seismic instability and it just amounts to a whole lot of shaking going on.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Gwen, we certainly hope that you're on stable ground from now on. Thanks a lot.</s>GWEN THOMPKINS: Thank you, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was NPR's Gwen Thompkins from East Africa, Nairobi, Kenya.

Brooklyn-based artist Josh Neufeld talks about his first Web comic series, A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge, which chronicles the lives of six real-life survivors of Hurricane Katrina. Two characters whose lives are depicted in the series, "Denise" and "Leo," talk about their portrayals.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: If you go online, you'll find news reports, blogs, and a comic series about Hurricane Katrina just for the Web.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's called "A.D.: News Orleans After The Deluge", and it illustrates the struggle to survive in the Big Easy during and after the flood. Brooklyn-based artist Josh Neufeld created "A.D." It appears on the Web site, smithmag.net. And he's created his own comic and also works with Harvey Pekar, the legendary comic creator who inspired the film "American Splendor."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In his new project, he tells the story of six real people in New Orleans, and two of the characters - if you can call them that - are Denise and Leo. Denise is a hurricane outreach organizer for a battered women's program in Baton Rouge, and Leo is editor and publisher of antigravitymagazine.com, a Web magazine about New Orleans' music and culture. We've got Denise, Leo and Josh. Welcome.</s>DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Hi.</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Hi, there.</s>LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Hey.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Josh, let me start with you. What inspired you to create this series?</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, it was when I - it all started when I was a volunteer for the Red Cross and I went down to Biloxi, Mississippi shortly after the hurricane. I blogged about my experiences down there and ended up compiling those blogs into a book - not a comic book, but just a record of my blogs and the comments that I received. And because I've had a history of doing comics on nonfiction topics, I got a lot of encouragement from people to do a comic about my experiences.</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): However, I was hesitant to do a comic about myself because I just didn't feel like that was appropriate for the subject matter, being that I was just a volunteer and not really, you know, someone who's directly affected by the hurricane. So…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So let me ask you how you found Leo, Denise and the other folks that you profiled.</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, when I finally did hit on the idea - thanks to Barry Smith, the editor of SMITH, where the comic is running - of doing the comic about real people who lived in New Orleans, we basically went on a three or four-month intensive search to find people that we thought would be great characters, subjects for the comic. And that's how we came across Leo and Denise.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Leo, you are one of these real-life characters. What do you think about being portrayed and perhaps exposed in this way?</s>LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Oh, I love it, you know? I've made no secret when Josh approached me about being a character in the strip that it was my lifelong dream to be a comic book character. I've, you know, grew up reading comics. That's how I learned to read, and I've collected them very, very avidly since I was about 12 years old. So you know, that - my passion for that could actually be, you know, kind of brought to life in that way. It was, you know, something very appealing to me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Denise, what about you? Do you feel like this is really your life? And if so, if not, why?</s>DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Oh, I believe it's a combination of things. It's my life and Josh's interpretation of it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And how do you feel about it?</s>DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Well, it has allure. It has (unintelligible). At first, I didn't want to be a comic book character. But I thought it was an opportunity to get some truth out about Katrina because there were so many lies.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And when you think about what's gotten out, do you ever - do you guys ever discuss and say, well, you know what, this is not the way that I would like this portrayed? And how do you negotiate with Josh about what appears?</s>DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Well, Josh and I talked on the front end, and I was kind of critical about the way my character could possibly be perceived. It seemed to me that my character will fall easily into stereotype and I was upset about it. But what I liked was that Josh didn't have a knee-jerk reaction to my criticism. And instead of becoming defensive, he listened to my concerns and he allowed me greater involvement in the process. So right now, I'm really pleased with how things are going.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Josh, how do you deal with people who, obviously, you have to have a relationship to them, saying, you know what, that's just not right, especially if you've already gone to press? I'm going to use that word, virtually, because it is the Internet. Do you say, oh, gosh, I made a booboo?</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, I don't know if it's reached that point. I think Denise, after she saw her representation in the first chapter, where I sort of introduced the character, she, you know, very rightfully had concern about being portrayed in sort of the stereotypical way of an African-American woman. And, you know, it was definitely a combination of me listening to her concerns and thinking about that. And then also we agreed that for future episodes, it just works better all around, I would show her the script before I - you know, I would show her any script that had her scenes in it, and she could sort of (unintelligible) it and help me, you know, correct details and help with language and all sorts of things that can only make the strip better. So I was really happy to have that kind of exchange.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Leo, you're someone who's a big fan of comics. You said that this was your dream.</s>LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Why do you think a form like this can tell a story as serious as Katrina, when a lot of people say, you know, comics are for kids or comics are for entertainment?</s>LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Well, I think part of the reason why Josh chose me to be one of the characters is because of my connection with comic books in general and just my long-term love for the medium. You know, quite simply, when you see my apartment, my old apartment in the comic strip, it's so full of comics and so full of, you know, different paraphernalia and different belongings that I had that, you know, you just see that as, like, such a love for me that it actually tosses the reader into it because, you know, like, well, if this person loves these things so much and I'm reading a comic strip about them, you know, why not take it seriously? It's obviously something that people do in real life. So you see those things very, very vividly.</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): If I can just jump in on there too. I mean, there is a long tradition in graphic novels and comic books of tackling, you know, very serious subjects from Art Spiegelman's "Maus" to Marjan Satrapi's "Persepolis" to Joe Sacco doing comics about the war in Yugoslavia and conflicts in Israel and Palestine.</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): So you know, for me, it's just the - it's just continuing that tradition and helping to hopefully educate Americans that comics are as valid a medium for telling these sorts of stories as any other one.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Denise, I'm sure that not your whole life will get to be told because this is going to go on for a few more episodes. But what are you doing now in terms of your professional life? And also how are you feeling, personally?</s>DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): I'm still struggling with a lot of Katrina-related issues and post-traumatic syndrome and anxiety and stuff. But I worked with battered women who are also survivors of Katrina. So they've gotten a double whammy. And it helps to get outside of your own myopic view of your problems. And I really like the work that I'm doing now. We're educating women about domestic violence and even on the impacts of Katrina and trying to facilitate them, getting their needs met while creating citizen activists who will help each other, particularly in the isolated areas like the trailer parks.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And, you know, Leo, do you feel like this is helping you process in any way, you know, being able to look at what's happened to you on the page? Does it help you emotionally?</s>LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Yeah. In a lot of ways, it does. I know - when the comic strip first started, and particularly, I think it's chapter three, which portrays my then girlfriend and I leaving the house, you know, right before Katrina, you know, it actually brought a lot of things back for me. Like, I really remembered, like, those last moments before we left and kind of how tense they were. And in some ways, I got to know if it helps me get over it, but it does help me remember it, and that puts things now into perspective. You know, just as far as making sure that I do appreciate everything that I have in my life now and how easily that can all be taken away.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Josh, just finally, what are you up to next with the series?</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Well, we're - I'm just finishing chapter six now, which is going to be debuting on Sunday on smithmag.net, and that's going to be halfway through the whole thing. And we've got six more chapters to go after that, where we're going to learn about what happened to the characters after the hurricane, and sort of take you up to the present day.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, it sounds like you got a lot on your plate. And Josh, Denise and Leo, thank you so much for coming on.</s>DENISE (Hurricane Outreach Organizer, Baton Rouge): Thank you.</s>Mr. JOSH NEUFELD (Creator, "A-D: News Orleans After The Deluge"): Thank you, Farai.</s>LEO (Editor and Publisher, AntigravityMagazine.com): Thanks.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Josh Neufeld is the writer and illustrator of "A.D.: News Orleans After The Deluge." The Web comic can be viewed at smithmag.net. And Denise and Leo are both real people having their Katrina experiences scripted into the comic. Leo spoke with us from WWNO in New Orleans, Louisiana.

It's been nearly a year since the controversial emergency contraceptive "Plan B" became an over the counter drug. OB/GYN Dr. Valerie Rice talks about the drug's impact on reproduction and women's health over the last year.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tomorrow the emergency contraceptive known as the morning-after pill will have been sold over the counter for exactly one year. The Food and Drug Administration had postponed its ruling on whether there could be over-the-counter sales again and again.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Doctor Valerie Montgomery Rice is Dean of the School of Medicine at Meharry Medical College, where she's also senior vice president for health affairs. She joins us now to look back at that controversy over the morning-after pill, also known as Plan B and to look at the current set of contraceptive options for women. Dr. Rice, thanks for coming on.</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): Thank you for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, I remember there were some misconceptions about the morning-after pill and whether or not it was a so-called abortion pill, like Mifepristone. Is that kind of misconception still out there?</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): I think there may be some confusion still in the mind of some of the individuals, but we now know, based on good data and the work that was done by the companies who sponsored this, is that what we believe is happening is that it is ovulation is probably inhibited and that the normal menstrual cycle is altered, which would delay ovulation. And so, we don't believe that what you are really seeing is a embryo that is somewhat aborted. We believe that the mechanism is based on ovulation really being inhibited and a delay in ovulation, which, of course, you can't get fertilization and therefore, you won't have this quote, unquote, "chemical abortion" that people talk about.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, are there any side effects with this pill?</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): With any birth control pills, some people do have some nausea, occasionally vomiting, but you - remember, this is a dose that is given 12 hours apart, and typically, most of the patients, particularly when they are used in the progestin-only type of morning-after pill, which Plan B is, then you don't see significant nausea at all.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Progestin is one of the different hormones that are used in some birth control pills. Just very briefly, tell us why this pill has that particular hormone.</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): Well, I think that when you look at the side effect profile, the number of people who had, like, the nausea, the vomiting, et cetera, as compared to some of the other progestins that were maybe considered, this one had the lowest side effect profile because, remember, we're trying to utilize something that's going to be effective and, of course, have the greatest safety profile for women.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So whether minors could get their hands on the drug was one of the key points of debate on whether to make available over the counter - has that issue been resolved?</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): I believe so. I did sit on the FDA panel during this time and was at the, of course, participated in the hearings, et cetera, and you know, the concerns were whether or not this would be a "licensed," quote, unquote for minors to participate in more sexual activity, et cetera. And my response to that has always been that people make decisions about whether or not to have intercourse based on, really, multiple factors. But one of the key factors is the information that they get at home. And so I did not agree that this would be a licensed. But the controversy was still there, whether or not if we placed it away from behind the counter then - and put it on the shelf like other over-the-counter medications, whether we would see an increase use, and I'm not clear that the data has shown that at all. That you're seeing an increase use by teens, et cetera.</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): I think I want to make sure that we clarify this. Plan B is an emergency type of contraceptive, and none of us would advocate that be the standard form of contraception that a person would use a lot, okay? No one would advocate that. We would advocate that people get on a more standard regimen of contraceptive. We have multiple options for women for long-term contraceptives that are reversible. So, I want to make sure that by no means that people walk away with this thinking that any of us would advocate that this is the standard means by which a woman will protect herself from pregnancy. This is what we recommend and the time when a condom breaks, or there has been a loss of your birth control pills and you have intercourse and you are concerned, that would be the situation that you will use this in. So I want to make sure that that is clear.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Dr. Valerie Montgomery Rice, thank you for coming on.</s>Dr VALERIE MONTGOMERY RICE (Dean, Meharry Medical College): All right. Thank you for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dr. Valerie Montgomery Rice is an obstetrician and gynecologist. She joined us by phone from Meharry Medical College in Nashville where she's dean of the school of medicine and senior vice president for health affairs.

Assemblywoman Laura Richardson, who was victorious a special election for California's 37th Congressional district, talks about her plans now that she's won the office. Richardson will serve the remainder of a two-year term.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Earlier today we spoke about the election of California Assemblywoman Laura Richardson to the U.S. Congress and she joins us now. Laura, thanks for coming on.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): Thank you, Farai, for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah, congratulations. And what was last night like for you?</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): It was pretty amazing given that it was a dream come true, something I've always wanted to do since I was about 6 years old. So I just feel very grateful and thankful.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Of course, the congresswoman who held the seat, Juanita Millender-McDonald, someone who seems to have mentored you. What was her legacy?</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): You know, the congresswoman - she also started as a council member and worked her way up, but more recently as a congressional member. She was very instrumental in the fight against AIDS and HIV, particularly within the minority community. She was very instrumental with the small business community as well.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): But just, I think, really a leader in terms of African-American women and getting us really focused on moving forward.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: The district that you represent contains some of the on-going debates about diversity in Californian - African Americans and Latinos. You represent one of many African-American political leaders in the area but the seat was also contested by someone who's Latina. How important is it for you now to reach out to the Latino community in your district?</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): Well, it's not a matter of reaching out because I always have. Since I've been on the city council and now on the assembly, I've always represented a district where African-Americans were the minority. So this isn't something new. When I look to serve, I look to serve all of those that I represent.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): Now I am African-American, and I have a particular background that I think brings me with certain things that I might be more concerned about or have a greater knowledge about. But I work just as hard on Cambodian issues as I do Filipino issues as I do Latino issues. And unfortunately, I really think as African-American leaders, if we're going to be successful, we have to really show that we have the ability to represent everyone. And I think as the public sees us representing everyone, we can begin to quail the fire that exist in our community.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So when you think there's - the issues of diversity but on a broader level what are the challenges that you're going to face. For example, in many of the areas that you represent, like Compton, education is a huge issue. How much influence do you think you can have in Congress on an issue like that?</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): Well, we have a whole lot of influence because we hold the checkbook. And when you're sending money down, a lot of local representatives, school boards, et cetera, will come to us and say, well, we want money for this, we want money for that. One thing I'm known for is that if someone comes to me and they want something, I want something in return. And what I want in return is for them to address the issues that I have from the community.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): But, you know, it's interesting you brought up education. I would say the most biggest issues facing us right now today, and number one on my list, is reopening the Martin Luther King Hospital. We've got to make sure that this community has affordable and accessible health care. No one's asking for health care for health care sake but we want quality and accessible health care.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): The other thing is, in this community, we just had the take over basically of Compton College. So things that many leaders worked on for 30 years, we're finding, are slipping away. So I have tremendous challenges in all of those areas but I think it really speaks to with new leadership, with new focus and a direction, we can stave off really what's been happening that's alarming to many people.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Congresswoman Millender-McDonald had a lot of seniority and got one of the many leadership positions that members of the Congressional Black Caucus had after Democrats took power back. Are you concerned that as a freshman, you will becoming in on the ground level and that you might not have as much of a voice in a very volatile time.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): No. Coming in to the assembly as an assembly member, I came in as assistant speaker pro temp. That's fourth in charge in the eighth largest economy in the world. To me, it's kind of from the biblical verse of your gift will make room for you. I find, if you work hard, if you show people you're serious about what you're doing, and you can speak intelligently and you're willing to do the work and the research, people will respond to that. So it might take me a little while but we'll hit the ground running.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What's your greatest dream for your district? What would you like to see it evolved into or benefit from?</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): My greatest dream would be to really see equality, and it's unfortunate that I would have to say that in 2007. But even today, we do not have equality. Whether it's in terms of jobs, whether it's in terms of health care, whether it's in terms of prison reform, education, I could just go down the list - environmental justice, we do not have equality. And so the same dream that Dr. Martin Luther King talked about really is, in my opinion, a dream. And we need to make it a reality.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: If you had to sum up your philosophy in one sentence about leadership, what would it be?</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): Results. How about one word? Results.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: One word, results. All right. Well, Laura Richardson, thank you so much for joining us.</s>Assemblywoman LAURA RICHARDSON (Democrat, California 37th District): Thank you for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Assemblywoman Laura Richardson won the special election last night to become congresswoman of California's 37th District.

Reporting in Science Translational Medicine, researchers write that the bacteria in yogurt affect people's digestion—but not by repopulating gut flora. Microbiologist Jeffrey Gordon talks about these findings and the future of using bacteria as therapy for digestive disorders such as diarrhea.

JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm John Dankosky.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Next up, our microbial hour continues, but this time with some friendly bacteria, like the ones in yogurt. Now, I've always thought that eating yogurt was good for my gut because it lets those good bacteria set up shop, warding off the bad guys by out-populating them. At least that's what I thought. Well, maybe not, because my next guest has found that yogurt bacteria don't actually re-colonize your gut, but they do alter what's going on down there as you digest your food. That research appears in the journal Science Translational Medicine.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: How important are these bacteria to our digestion? Might certain strains help us get more nutrients from what we eat? If you have questions, 1-800-989-8255. 1-800-989-TALK.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Joining me now is Jeffrey Gordon, a professor of pathology and immunology at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. He's also director of the school's Center for Genome Sciences. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY, Dr. Gordon.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Thank you for having me.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So you first studied yogurt bacteria in mice. How did you do that?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, let's have a few definitions to begin with. Yogurt refers to a product obtained from fermentation of milk by cultures of bacteria. Common bacteria in yogurts are streptococcus thermophilus and, another one with a bigger name, lactobacillus. We wanted to understand the effects of yogurt strains, as you said, on both the structure and the operations of our gut microbes, and we set up an experiment with two arms.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: On the one hand, we had mice that were raised under sterile condition. They're called germ-free mice. In a particular stage of their life, we introduced a collection of 15 normal members of our human gut community. By the way, their genomes were completely sequenced, so we knew all the genes in this model community of our human gut bacteria. And we studied these mice for a time, looking at the operations of this community, and then assessed the impact of introducing the bacterial strains that are present in a popular, commercially available fermented milk product.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: At the same time, we were studying a group of adult, healthy identical twins. And we followed them for a period of time, sampling their gut communities, and then administered the same commercially available product and looked at the impact of consuming that product over time, and then had them all stop consuming the product and looked to see whether the live bacterial strains associated with the product disappeared in a predictable way.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Oh, so...</s>JEFFREY GORDON: So that was the setup.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: That's the setup. What else did you find?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, we found in both the mice and in the humans that consumption of these live bacteria didn't really disrupt the representation of preexisting bacteria in the guts of humans or mice. It didn't affect the representation of genes. Rather, it affected the way these communities operated, specifically the pattern of expression of microbial genes involved in certain aspects of metabolism, most notably the metabolism of complex sugars, polysaccharides.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: And what we saw in mice we also saw in humans, which gave us encouragement because we felt that, in this field, where lots of claims are made about the health benefits of probiotics, it's very important to be able to establish a rigorous testing scheme, where we could, under very controlled conditions, look at the impact of these strains on gut communities, take the lessons learned from these models and then apply it in an informed and directed way to humans.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Just so we understand, when I eat a little bit of yogurt, the bugs that are in the yogurt, the microbes that are in there, are just a tiny, tiny fraction of how many microbes are in my gut. Maybe you can explain the scale here.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Absolutely. So a typical helping of yogurt will have a few billion bacteria. Now, of course that's a large number. But consider for a moment the fact that our human guts are home to tens and tens of trillions of microbes, largely bacteria. So, really, it's a small fraction of the population.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: And what we noted in mice and what we noted in humans shouldn't be surprising. We dosed the mice at a level that's equivalent to the dosing in humans, and there wasn't a change in the overall architecture, the structure, of these communities. Rather, through processes that we don't fully understand, there was a form of communication between the yogurt strains and the normal resident bacteria in the gut. And that communication resulted in a change in the properties of the gut communities; notably, it affected the way these communities processed polysaccharides. Why is that important? Well, polysaccharides, which are common components of our diet, are molecules, large molecules that have complex chemical linkages. We don't have the dining utensils necessary to break down these polysaccharides on our own. Rather, we depend upon our gut bacteria to mobilize these utensils - they're actually enzymes - to break down polysaccharides in ways that are useable to us and to them. So we see...</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: And what are the polysaccharides we're breaking down again?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, in this particular case, the change involved a series of polysaccharides that are common ingredients of our foods. I'll give you their names. Xylans, these are present in fruits and vegetables, milk, honey, wheat. Pectins, they're prominent in apples, plums, oranges, carrots. They are the jelling agent used in jams and jellies. And the other type of polysaccharide, again, common in our diet can be classified as fructans. They're present in wheat, barley, garlic, onion, asparagus. And again, these are normal components of our diets. These are components that we depend upon our gut microbes to break down. And the introduction of these yogurt strains appeared to improve the capacity to break down these components of our diet.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: They not only appeared at the level of gene expression, but we actually measured the products of digestion in these mouse models, and they were very informative. They confirmed what we saw at the level of gene expression and told us that, yes, in fact, a small number of bacteria ingested can affect the properties of a gut community.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: But - yeah.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Of course, once the twins stopped consuming yogurt, the strains in the yogurt rapidly cleared from the system.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Yeah. So how long do the effects last? And how quickly do they get cleared?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, in all cases, within about two weeks, the bacterial strains that were contained in this fermented milk product fell to below the limits of detection in each of the seven sets of twins that we studied.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: So to get any gut benefit here, does it matter how much yogurt I eat? Is there a minimum effective dose to actually do what you're getting at here?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: There probably is some variations in the amount of bacteria from the ingested yogurt that are present in your gut at the time you're consuming it. We really don't know the question of dosing. We really don't know the effect of the diets of the people who are consuming the yogurt on the effects of the yogurt strains in digestion of other types of food in our diets. We hope that these mouse models will allow us to answer the questions of whether a particular type of yogurt or fermented milk product has similar effects on people having different dietary habits, different ages - the types of questions that are going to be important to get answers to if we rigorously assess some of the health claims that are made by manufacturers of probiotics.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: We're talking with Jeffrey Gordon from Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. You can join us at 1-800-989-8255 or 1-800-989-TALK. Let's go to Chris in Springdale, Arkansas. Hi, Chris.</s>CHRIS: Hi. How are you guys doing today?</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Good. What's up?</s>CHRIS: Well, I had a question about the different types of yogurt. I know when you walk into a yogurt aisle at any Wal-Mart or any kind of big-box store, there's so much selection. I was wondering if there's one type of yogurt that's better for you than another, and really what it is in the yogurt that we should looking for in the label to find out what it is really that gives us these probiotic benefits.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, that's a wonderful question and one of the reasons that we embarked on this set of experiments. We really wanted to create an analysis pipeline, where we could use models - in this case, an animal model where we reconstructed a human gut community - to answer some of the questions that you ask. We do know that individuals vary in terms of their collection of gut microbes. Even genetically identical twins have somewhat different collections of gut microbes. We know that diet plays an important role in shaping the structure and operations of these communities. There are different types of yogurt. There are different types of fermented dairy products. As I said in the beginning of this episode, there are - a minimum of two types of bacterial strains that are required to be present in a fermented milk product in order for it to be labeled yogurt.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: There are some types of products that have more than these two strains. You can also, as you know, go to supermarkets and various stores and pick up probiotics that have a variety of different components. We really don't have sufficient information to answer the question you have asked. We do, we think, have a set of tools in a new toolbox to address this. How do foods and how do gut bacteria interact with one another? Is the nutritional value of food influenced, in part, by the microbes we normally harbor? Can it be further modified by these live microbes we ingest deliberately? And in the future, if we open up a medicine cabinet in the 21st century, can we find - should we discover a series of new probiotics that can enhance the nutritional value of the particular diets that we consume?</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Well, you mentioned the off-the-shelf probiotics. I know a lot of people are interested in that. If you take probiotics in capsule form, is it different somehow than eating yogurt in the morning?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: That also is a great question. And just relating to the episode that preceded this one, it's going to be very important for the formulation of these products to be carefully validated. Is there a set number or an indicated number of live microbes in that formulation as advertised? Do we know the genome sequences of the bugs that are contained in these products? Is manufacturing such that from lot to lot we have consistency? I know that issue of consistency is taken very seriously by the manufacturers of a number of yogurts. But as you indicate, probiotics are sold widely, they're advertised having very - a variety of different health effect. And for those claims to be validated, we'd need the types of tools that we described in this study and others.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: I'm John Dankosky. And this is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR. The yogurt company Dannon, which partially funded this research that we're talking about today, recently settled a suit for claiming on its packaging that yogurt can improve digestion and immune system. What do you think of labels like this? Does this study back up these claims?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, actually, Dannon funded part of our research in order to construct this type of analysis pipeline, to test the types of claims that are being made, not only by themselves but by others. I do think that this particular study indicated that there's an effect on the digestion of a component of our diet, polysaccharides. There have been other studies in mice, for instance, that shows that certain consortium of bacteria that are found in fermented milk products, including products made by Dannon, may modulate immune function in a way that would be beneficial, at least in the setting of colitis.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: So I think that there's much to learn. I think we have to be very rigorous in terms of testing the claims in order for the public to gain additional trust that we should be equipped to address the complexity of our gut microbial communities in the form of representative animal models, learn from those models, and then design, execute and carefully interpret clinical studies. A lot of public will know.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Yeah. Lyle is in Eagle, Michigan. Lyle, a quick question for the doctor?</s>LYLE: Yeah. After reading the China study, I quit eating dairy and meat. And I was real curious and overjoyed to hear about the billions of bacteria I have in my belly. Good to hear that because I was kind of concerned that because I was not going to eat any more yogurt that maybe there was a challenge. I never really had any issues. I was wondering if your research has gone that way with people that didn't eat any meat or dairy, and how their bacteria as well as digestions have been affected.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Yeah. How is Lyle's gut, Doctor?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Well, I don't know, Lyle, but thank you for sharing your personal story with me. Lyle, I'll tell you something. Your thought is a very important one because there is an emerging set of observations, in part, made by our group and others, that diet has a huge effect in shaping the structure and operations of your gut communities. We've studied many different mammalian species, including humans, to look at the impact of different diets on how our gut communities are configured. And not billions, Lyle, but trillions of microbes live in our gut. And people on different diets have different gut structures. And when they switch diets, the representation of members of your gut community will change.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: It's part of an important adaptation, part of the fitness. We have to learn how to digest the foods that we eat. As humans, we change what we eat over time. What is the code that relates the nutritional value of what we consume in the structure and operations of our gut communities? That's going to be a very important issue to address because looking forward, we heard this week that the population of our planet has reached seven billion humans, by 2050, 9 billion humans. What types of crops we plant, what kind of recommendations we make about what to eat in the future will be informed by deeper knowledge of the operations of this vast collection of microbes that live inside of us.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Jeffrey Gordon, you eat yogurt every day?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: I don't eat yogurt every day, but I do eat yogurt intermittently.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: OK. And it has any health benefits for you?</s>JEFFREY GORDON: Not noticeable, but I enjoy the experience.</s>JOHN DANKOSKY, HOST: Excellent. Jeffrey Gordon is professor of pathology and immunology at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. He's also director of the school's Center for Genome Sciences. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.</s>JEFFREY GORDON: My pleasure.

In a special election, Laura Richardson of Long Beach, Calif., won the Democratic congressional seat left open following the death of Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald. NPR senior correspondent Juan Williams gives insight into last night's special election for California's 37th congressional district.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Last night, in an anticipated Democratic victory, Assemblywoman Laura Richardson won the seat for California's 37th congressional district. Richardson takes over for the late Congresswoman Juanita Millender-McDonald who died of colon cancer earlier this year. Richardson inherits one of America's most diverse and challenged districts. It includes parts of Compton, Watts and Long Beach.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We'll have Laura Richardson on the program shortly. But first, we've got NPR's Juan Williams for more on last night's election. Juan, thanks for coming on.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: My pleasure, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So can you give us a bird's eye view of the district and its constituents?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, it's a really interesting district because I think it really reflects the sort of changing racial demographic going on all through the U.S. Compton, which is, of course, famous for "Straight Outta Compton" and NWA. Can you imagine, Farai, Compton now is a majority Latino city? And that's part of this area. Mostly, it's southern Los Angeles, Compton, Carson, Long Beach, and, historically, has been represented by Juanita Millender.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what was voter turnout like yesterday? This is an election coming at a very odd time for voters.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: You know, what's interesting was that in June when - let me just back up and say that Juanita Millender-McDonald died of cancer in April. She was 68 years old. She had just advanced into a leadership position, a chairman in the Congress, you know, part of this new, large 41-member Black Caucus, a real leader and a real trailblazer in terms of West Coast black politics. She died in April, as I said. And in this election that was held to replace her in June, you had a turnout of less than 12 percent. And you - this time, the election that was held yesterday, the special election was even a smaller turnout.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Richardson beat out former Congresswoman Millender-McDonald's daughter among others in the primary, but Richardson had a relationship to the congresswoman. What was their relationship and did the rivalry with her daughter threaten to ruin both of their candidacies?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, it did. It did. That's a really insightful question, Farai, because what happened is that you had, you know, her working with the congresswoman as a field deputy for many years. She also worked though with Cruz Bustamente who, of course, was the speaker of the house out in California. And then all of a sudden, you have Valerie McDonald, who was Juanita Millender-McDonald's daughter, deciding that she wanted to run to replace her mother.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: And I think the more, you know, stronger challenge came from the state Senator Jenny Oropeza who was Hispanic. And - the threat, the division though is one that inside the black community, if you had the black votes split between Valerie McDonald and Richardson, then you would have the possibility that Jenny Oropeza could have snuck through and you could have had the district flip from black representation to Hispanic representation.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: And let me say this is a nationwide issue, Farai. What you've got to understand is that there has been a leap in terms of the number of Hispanics in the U.S. Congress. They're now 29. It's been like a 60 percent jump over the last few years, so 29 Hispanics. And if you think about the 41 black people in the U.S. Congress, six of them already are in districts where black Americans are in the minority. So you have black people representing minority, majority districts of Latinos or whites. And in the case of this district, the 37th congressional district, it is now mostly Latino. And so the question was were you going to have a Latina come in, in the form of Jenny Oropeza or were you going to have - an African American retain control.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So when you look at the legacy of Millender-McDonald, what does Richardson have to live up to for her community?</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: Well, you know, this is another interesting thing. Actually, if you had had Jenny Oropeza or Valerie McDonald or Richardson, they all basically have the same politics. They're all pretty much liberal Democrats opposed to the war in Iraq. And so it's not a matter of a shift in terms of ideology.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: And what she has to live up to is pretty much being a strong voice for people who are struggling. So you see that she has the opportunity, I think, now to become a fixture. She's young enough. She has experience as a businesswoman. She graduated from UCLA, USC Business School. As I mentioned, worked for, not only Millender-McDonald, but for Cruz Bustamente, and got endorsements from Hispanic - key Hispanic politicians. So she has the opportunity now if she's going to really fulfill Millender-McDonald's legacy of becoming another leading light in terms of national politics for minorities coming out of the West Coast.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Juan, thank you for your insight.</s>JUAN WILLIAMS: You're welcome, Farai. Have a good day.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was NPR senior correspondent Juan Williams.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And later in the show, we're going to speak to Assemblywoman Laura Richardson.

Farah Jasmine Griffin — a professor of English and African-American studies at Columbia University — brings us the third installment in her series, honoring the six most influential African-American writers. Today, she pays tribute to Zora Neale Hurston.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, from the business of publishing to the art of black literature.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All this month, Farah Jasmine Griffin has been sharing her list of the most influential black American writers ever. Griffin is a professor of English and Comparative Literature, and African-American Studies at Columbia University. Her first two choices were 19th century greats Phillis Wheatley and Frederick Douglas. Today, she points us to Harlem Renaissance legend, Zora Neale Hurston.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): I chose Hurston for a number of reasons. One, simply the quality and variety of her work as a novelist, short story writer, anthropologist, folklorist, playwright. I don't know of any writer who is as accomplished in as many genres and forms as Hurston is. But I also chose her because of her influence on a generation of writers, especially African-American women writers, who had emerge in the 1970s, and who, themselves, would change the landscape of American literature.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): Hurston was fairly well known as a younger writer, especially as a participant of the Harlem Renaissance. She was known for her short stories, but as the fashion in literature begin to change, and we get the emergence of young male writers like Richard Wright, she sort of falls, I guess, out of fashion. And I think both sexism and racism, and the kind of American culture industry sort of buried her beneath the emergence of male writers, black and white.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): In the '70s, after the Black Power movement and the feminist movement, young black women writers looking for four mothers, sort of rediscover Hurston and bring her back to a wider audience. Hurston is dealing with the interpersonal aspects of black life, the aspects of black life that happened beyond the gaze of white people. And, in so doing, I think she testifies to black people's humanity.</s>Professor FARAH JASMINE GRIFFIN (African American Studies, Columbia University): I think that the most well-known line is probably the black woman who's the mule of the world, but in "Their Eyes Were Watching God", there's so many eloquent and beautiful statements that go beyond that. And I think the descriptions of the love shared between Tea Cake and Janie that are passionate and sensual and egalitarian are among the most beautiful lines in the book. The closing lines of "Their Eyes Were Watching God" - my favorite lines of the book: Then Tea Cake came prancing around her, where she was, and the song of the sigh flew out of the window and lit in the top of the pine trees. Tea Cake, with the sun for a shawl, of course he wasn't dead. He could never be dead until she herself had finished feeling and thinking. The kiss of his memory made pictures of love and light against the wall. Here was peace. She pulled in her horizon like a great fishnet, pulled it from around the waist of the world and draped it over her shoulder. So much of life in its meshes. She called in her soul to come and see.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was Farah Jasmine Griffin on Zora Neale Hurston, one of my personal favorites, and one of her six picks as the most influential black writers ever. Griffin is professor of English and Comparative Literature and African-American Studies at Columbia University.</s>You can find more of her choices and weigh in with your own at our blog: nprnewsandviews.org.

Days after leading his team to a 7th game win in the World Series, Tony La Russa has announced that he has retired. La Russa changed the game of baseball and is among the top managers in the Major Leagues. Over his 33-year career, he won the world series three times. Mike Pesca, sports correspondent, NPR

NEAL CONAN, host: Tony La Russa's going out on top. Just three days after he led the St. Louis Cardinals to a dramatic World Series triumph, the longtime manager today announced plans to retire. He leaves the game with three championships, 2,728 victories, third on the all-time list and can start writing his acceptance speech for the baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. NPR sports correspondent Mike Pesca joins us now from our bureau in New York. Mike, nice to have you back.</s>MIKE PESCA: Oh, thanks for having me.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And Tony La Russa goes out a World Series hero. But, Mike, take us back to last Thursday night when it looked like he was going to be the World Series goat.</s>MIKE PESCA: Yes. He had the genius strategy of saying, let's get to one out from elimination twice.</s>MIKE PESCA: But it worked out for him. And that's one of the truths about managing. Tony La Russa is a great manager. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame certainly. Third all-time as you say. If he came back and just managed a month or two, he would certainly pass John McGraw as the second winningest manager of all time.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And a decade or two and he might get to Connie Mack.</s>MIKE PESCA: That's right. And that - so that's quite a bit to chew off. But managing in baseball has - of all the major sports, a baseball manager has less impact in the team's overall wins and losses than a football coach or a basketball coach - certainly at the college level, probably at the pro level - and maybe it's equivalent of a hockey coach. Managers make big moves that we all look at late in games and they decide which relief pitchers to bring in or if to bring in a relief pitcher. And with Tony La Russa, the answer was almost always yes.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Bring the hook.</s>MIKE PESCA: Yeah. But, you know, experts who've studied it - and this is a harder thing to do than to figure out how important a player is - say that managers, a great manager over an average manager over the course of a season might be responsible for one or two extra wins. But there is that ineffable thing and it's not just myth, I think, that a good manager sets a tone and you want to play for a good manager. And Tony La Russa also had those qualities of a good manager.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: He also innovated - as you suggest, he was always quick with the hook, but with a purpose, he changed the role of relief pitchers late in ball games. If games are running longer than they used to, you can blame, in part, Tony La Russa.</s>MIKE PESCA: It is among the reasons. Although I do think if you just made those batters get out of the - get in to batter's box and stop adjusting the equipment, it would more than make up for Tony La Russa's innovations, which actually have something to do with the outcome of the game. The LOOGYs, which I'm sure you know, but maybe not everyone does, stands for the lefty one-out guy, so L-O-O-G. There are many LOOGYs in baseball, you know, a very extreme specialist who's get - who's called in to just pitch to one batter and get him out. That's not a Tony La Russa innovation, but he certainly popularized the LOOGY. There are, you know, dozens of players who owe their entire livelihoods to Tony La Russa.</s>MIKE PESCA: He - this last World Series saw more pitching changes than had ever been seen in a World Series, and he set that record well before there was even a Game 7. So La Russa was a tinkerer with the bullpen. He was a very active manager. He would always make a decision instead of not making a decision, and sometimes not making a decision is the right thing. So you always notice Tony La Russa managing but still, he was much more successful than not.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Back in the Oakland A's days though, didn't he have a clear role in defining the closer with Dennis Eckersley?</s>MIKE PESCA: Right. Now he had a great pitcher in Eckersley who used to be starter, but he said, we're going to go to you and not only because you're the best pitcher for one or two innings but because you have the mental comportment to close out the games. And not withstanding Kirk Gibson's very dramatic homerun even though it came in Game 1 of that World Series, that was a turning point, and Gibson got that homerun off of Eckersley. Eckersley was the dominant closer in the game.</s>MIKE PESCA: Rollie Fingers, others had closed out games and been - and served in that role, but it was really Eckersley who was going to be this ninth inning slam-the-door guy. Now you forget that someone even thought of that. It just seems like, oh, that's the way baseball goes, like four balls and three strikes. But that's not the case and La Russa had a lot to do with that.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: We're talking with NPR correspondent Mike Pesca, just back from covering the World Series. If you've been in a cave somewhere, it was the St. Louis Cardinals in seven games over the Texas Rangers, and Game 6 was a classic for the ages as the Cardinals twice came back, once in the ninth inning down to their last strike, two runs behind. Then again, in the 10th down to their last strike, two runs behind, tied it up both times and won it in the 11th off the bat of the eventual MVP. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.</s>MIKE PESCA: Yeah. David Freese put it out there.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And, Mike Pesca, as you look at Tony La Russa's - the game before that, he makes a call to the bullpen to tell them to get a pitcher up, and it turns out, for some reason, they get up the wrong pitcher. He goes out to the mound and brings in the guy they've had warming up - the wrong guy - and has him do what is unheard of in baseball, issue an intentional walk, four pitches outside of the strike zone, removes him to get the next pitcher who's the wrong pitcher again.</s>MIKE PESCA: Right. Now, we talked about specialists, but the intentional walk relief guy specialist has not been invented. That was a mistake. So Tony La Russa's explanation for this was the crowd in Texas was so loud, I said get up. Get up, Motte, and they heard Lynn. They heard the guy who we're talking about, Lance Lynn, who issued that intentional walk. It was just a miscommunication. Lynn was not supposed to pitch that game. I guess Tony La Russa is such an acclaimed figure, or at least he rules with an iron fist that no one said, Tony, Lynn? That doesn't make sense. We already talked about Lynn not pitching today.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Not available today.</s>MIKE PESCA: Yeah. Yeah. I actually went out after that press conference where people were scratching their heads and, really, it was quite a press conference because the reporters were just asking, wait, wait, wait. You got to go over this again, Tony. You called and asked for a pitcher, and you got the wrong one. And then you asked for him again, and you still got the wrong one. He went through it. And I went out to the bullpen and I examined the phone. I thought maybe I could find some technological thing wrong. It was actually a solid phone, like the kind they used to have all over the public streets, nice, silver job. I think it's a Protech(ph) 7000. I kind of cross-referenced it on different phone models on the Internet.</s>MIKE PESCA: But La Russa - OK. So here's maybe an indication of why La Russa retired. He out-managed Ron Washington, the Rangers manager in that World Series. He mostly did the right thing. But in that moment, maybe Tony La Russa of '89 or Tony La Russa of 1999 would've been hopping mad. You know, he's an intense guy. But in the press conference afterwards, someone said, you know, is there anything you could do to make communication better, and he said, I don't know. Maybe smoke signals. I mean, it was a little bit like he had put his foot off the gas pedal a little bit. His personality had changed. Not that you can't manage that way, not that it's a flawed way to manage. It just struck people who have been covering Tony La Russa as not very La Russa-like to be something other than hopping mad.</s>MIKE PESCA: And on ESPN, I even saw a couple of the commentators saying, how could La Russa joke about that? This is a very serious mistake. You would - if you followed La Russa, you'd never think anyone would ever criticize him for being anything less than the utmost in seriousness. So, you know, people are saying it was kind of unexpected even though La Russa is 67, was unexpected that he would retire. But his attitude did seem slightly different this year in this postseason as compared to postseasons past, and he's such a great manager. He's usually in this postseason.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And his final contribution may be that next year we'll have a - text messages will become the preferred method of summoning relief pitchers rather than the old fashion phone. Maybe baseball could get an underwriting arrangement with, I don't know, Motorola or Nokia or iPhone, whomever.</s>MIKE PESCA: It has been suggested that he was angling for that endorsement. Yeah. I mean, if Taco Bell gets your order right and they post it in the back so the guys in the back know that you ordered a chalupa upfront, I could think a major league baseball team might want to imitate that technology.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And is an era passing here? You've - you see Tony La Russa. Just a year and a bit ago, Joe Torre finally leaving the manager's bench. There's a generation of players - managers who are leaving the game.</s>MIKE PESCA: That's true. An innovation - and this is the thing about Tony La Russa. He was a lawyer and he used computers and he was innovative, and the old guard didn't like him. And the manager of the Brewers didn't even let - when they had the All-Star game, didn't even let him be a coach, which is a ceremonial thing when he was a young guy managing the White Sox. So he was an upstart. And now he's kind of seen as old guard and a little cranky, but he's still such an innovator and he was still always willing to thwart convention. So I think a lot of the younger managers are very willing to thwart convention.</s>MIKE PESCA: But, you know, baseball is a game, at least its managerial ranks, unlike some of those other sports. You know, I can't see an 80-year-old being an NFL coach, but it happened in baseball. You know, Jack McKeon was managing this year. Jim Leyland is an old manager. So you still have the ability for some of the old guard to hang onto their posts as it were.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Which is why, I guess, even managers have to wait five years before they can be inducted into Cooperstown for fear they might come back.</s>MIKE PESCA: Yeah. And who knows? They just might. I mean, I could see La Russa getting the itch at 75, and what are you going to do?</s>NEAL CONAN, host: I guess the Hot Stove League has started in St. Louis. Any early candidates to take over for Tony La Russa?</s>MIKE PESCA: Well, they're thinking that - not Dave Duncan, who is his pitching coach, but perhaps some of other members of his staff and, of course, there are high profile managers out there. Who knows? Maybe he could get Joe Torre, who is a lifelong St. Louis - or not a lifelong, but played for the St. Louis Cardinals and, yeah, managed there.</s>MIKE PESCA: But, you know, I think that the biggest impact on the Hot Stove League, well, people will say - and I think rightly so - that this at least diminishes ever so slightly the Cardinals' chance of resigning Albert Pujols who, for years, was the best slugger in baseball and is now still one of the best. He seems to have a real great working relationship with La Russa, and so that's maybe one less reason for Pujols to come back, although they are so intertwined. I would at least like to see him stay a Cardinal for next year and all the years to come.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: And before we get too many emails, I do know that Joe Torre grew up in Brooklyn, all right. NPR correspondent Mike Pesca joined us from our bureau in New York. Mike, thanks very much.</s>MIKE PESCA: You're welcome.</s>NEAL CONAN, host: Tomorrow, when loved ones spin out of control with drugs or alcohol, we'll talk about what you do when it's just a matter of time. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

Award-winning former reporter Patrice Gaines quit her job and gave up life in the Washington, D.C.-area for the rest and relaxation she finds in her new home of Lake Wylie, S.C. She describes what she sacrificed when she left big city life — like good coffee.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time for our weekly Snapshot.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We checked in again with Patrice Gaines, an award-winning former reporter with the Washington Post. A few years back, she quit her job and moved to Lake Wylie, South Carolina, for a little peace and quiet. She got a whole lot more, but she had to give up some of the perks that come with big city life, like good coffee.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): Before closing on my house in Lake Wylie, I clocked the distance to the closest Starbucks. It was eight miles, a bit far to drive in a day's pre-caffeine state I thought. The distance honestly concerned me.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): As a city girl, I had come to expect a Starbucks on every corner. But shortly after moving into my development off River Hills, my neighbor Martha(ph) took me to Local Motion Bar and Grill for breakfast. This is a place that has happy hour in the evening, but in the morning, they drape the pool table with a plastic cover, stop the twirling disco ball, and fire up the grill for some bacon and eggs. The sign over the door makes sure I know this is, quote, "where locals meet." And it's true. I can't say I'm a regular, but I do run into neighbors whenever I drop in.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): On a recent Saturday morning, my sister Carol(ph) and I stopped by for grits and coffee. And a few leather-faced men sat at the bar already nursing beers. Here, the smoking section is the entire restaurant. Budweiser lamps hang over the bar. One TV set is tuned to ESPN. Another TV, believe it or not, is on a kid's show, "That's So Raven."</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): A man at the bar turns to a woman and says, so what are you going to do? Sue me? Everybody else does. At a table nearby, a little girl sips chocolate milk. It's the kind of place where dreams can coexist peacefully from one table to the next.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): Tom Schneider(ph), the owner, comes out of the kitchen to say hi. He puffs on a Winston with his Gerber baby face and describes Local Motion as, cheers with food. You pretty much know who's coming in. When you see them coming, you know what to get them, he says. Our motto is: We don't have a town drunk, we all take turns, but we also make sure everybody gets home safe.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): Our waitress, Carla(ph), wears jean shorts, not the show-you-booty type, but the kind that a practical woman wears for comfort.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): I order grits and eggs over-easy, smoked sausage and biscuits. Carol orders the same, except she likes her eggs scrambled.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): My neighbor Carl Gullick(ph) is at a table talking with a local couple, a South Carolina state representative, he comes in for breakfast whenever he's home. The men at the bar have formed a group called the Liars Club, he tells me, and he encourages me to join. Come on, it's not hard to be a member, he says, laughing. I don't know that I drop into Local Motion quite enough to join the club, but I do know they built a Starbucks closer to my house now, and I have no desire to check it out.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): Occasionally, I'm sure, I want to sit in a trendy cookie-cutter chain cafe and order a tazo chai latte and a lemon poppy seed muffin. Most of the time, though, Tom Schneider's coffee suits me just fine. And those fluffy, white flower biscuits and grits, well, they're downright addictive.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was author and journalist Patrice Gaines with this week's Snapshot. She told her story from member station WFAE in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Former Trump associate Roger Stone was arrested Friday following an indictment alleging he obstructed an official proceeding, made false statements and tampered with witnesses.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In a pre-dawn raid in Florida, President Trump's longtime former adviser Roger Stone was arrested. Stone is a colorful character and longtime presence in conservative politics going back to the Nixon administration. He's now been indicted as part of special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Stone, who is usually spotted in expensive suits, appeared in federal court wearing jeans and a blue polo. On his way out of the courthouse, he raised his arms, flashed a victory sign and pledged his loyalty to the president.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: NPR justice reporter Ryan Lucas is here to tell us more about what exactly happened in that courtroom. Hi, Ryan.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Hello there.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Start with the charges. What exactly has Roger Stone been charged with?</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Well, the indictment contains seven counts, one each for obstruction of an official proceeding and witness tampering. And then five counts relate to alleged false statements that Stone made to congressional investigators. At its heart, what the indictment alleges is that Stone was directed by Trump campaign officials to contact WikiLeaks, find out what hacked Democratic emails the organization had in its possession and what its plans were for releasing those materials. And it was WikiLeaks, remember, that published those Democratic emails that the U.S. government says were hacked by Russia.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: The indictment also alleges that Stone later took steps to try to hide the details of his efforts to contact WikiLeaks and find out what the organization was up to. Now, it is important to say that Stone was not charged with conspiring with WikiLeaks or Russia.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: No, more pointing toward possible cover-up rather than crime, these charges - OK, to give people a sense of where all this was happening, Stone was taken into custody at his home in Florida. He made his initial appearance in court in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. What did he say?</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Well, as you said earlier, the FBI raided Stone's home. It was before dawn. In TV footage from the scene, you can hear agents yelling, it's the FBI; open the door. In court, Stone has read the charges. He was then released on this quarter-million-dollar bond. Afterwards, he stepped out onto the courthouse steps and talked to reporters.</s>ROGER STONE: I will plead not guilty to these charges. I will defeat them in court. I believe this is a politically motivated investigation.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Now, he also said that under no circumstances would he testify against President Trump. You get a bit of a sense from that tape there was a raucous scene it was outside the courthouse.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Yeah.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Some of the onlookers were chanting, lock him up. Stone appeared to almost enjoy it. He had a smile on his face. I'm told that he loves this sort of fight. At one point, as you noted, he flashed that V for victory sign, which of course is a gesture that was made famous in American political history by a man he once worked for, President Richard Nixon.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Indeed. What is the current occupant of the White House or his staff saying about all this?</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: President Trump's lawyer Jay Sekulow says the indictment does not allege Russian collusion by Stone or anyone else, says that it focuses on alleged false statements that Stone made to Congress. And this has been essentially what we've heard from the president's camp to most of Mueller's indictments. They say these charges have nothing to do with Russia and nothing to do with the president.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Allow me to put to you, Ryan, the question I think I put to you just about every time there's a new twist in all of this, which is to say pretty much daily - hourly, I'm sure it feels like. What does today's news tell us about the broader picture, the shape of the Russia investigation?</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Well, Stone is the sixth Trump associate to be charged by Mueller in this investigation, the 34th individual overall to face charges. And over the course of this investigation, Mueller has documented multiple contacts that Trump associates had with Russians or with Russian proxies.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Now, with this Stone indictment, Mueller is providing the most-detailed account yet of contacts that folks associated with the Trump campaign allegedly had with WikiLeaks about those hacked Democratic emails. And Stone is presented as intermediary of sorts between WikiLeaks and the campaign, which is something he's denied. There's a line in the indictment that caught my eye. It says, senior Trump campaign official was directed to get in touch with Stone about what WikiLeaks had and when it would release it. That official is not identified, but the bigger question is, who directed him?</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Indeed. NPR's Ryan Lucas, thank you.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Thank you.

In Venezuela, the stakes are rising in the internationally-backed drive to oust President Nicolás Maduro as his challenger stages a rally in the capital. The U.S. warned the regime not to touch him.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The stakes keep getting higher in Venezuela in the campaign to oust President Nicolas Maduro. Today, his challenger, Juan Guaido, appeared at a rally in the capital, Caracas, and reeled off the countries that have recognized him as Venezuela's interim president.</s>JUAN GUAIDO: (Speaking Spanish).</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: While Guaido was speaking, so was Maduro a few miles across town at a press conference. His message - he's not going anywhere. And NPR's Philip Reeves is in Caracas now. And, Philip, I want to start with Guido and his gathering. You were there. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Yes. Guaido appeared in a plaza in the heart of the city. It was billed as a press conference, actually, but it became a rally because several thousand supporters showed up. He arrived in a dark suit and tie, looking relaxed. He smiled a lot. He interacted with the crowd who occasionally broke into chants of president, president. And he took some questions from the media.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: And two things really stood out. One is that he's raising the pressure in this duel with Maduro. He's called for more open-air meetings across the country tomorrow and Sunday and then a big week of demonstrations next week. He says his campaign is going to stay on the streets until Maduro goes and free and fair elections can be held because he and the U.S. and many, many others say that the presidency is Nicolas Maduro is illegitimate because the election that won him a second term is a fraud. And the other thing that stood out is the emphasis he's placing on nonviolence. He really wants this campaign to be a nonviolent campaign.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Given how Maduro treated the opposition in the past, isn't Guaido at the risk of arrest?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Yeah, he is. And he talked about that, saying that if he's arrested, his supporters should carry on with his campaign. And he's also encouraging them to reach out to people who they know in the police or in the army and persuade them to switch sides because, as he puts it, we're the future.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: We mentioned Maduro's kind of counter-event. What did he have to say?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, yes. I mean, Maduro was speaking at the same time to the press and to the media in his presidential palace about five miles away. And, you know, he was behind the barricades, continuing to complain that this is an attempted coup orchestrated by the U.S., calling it a desperate act and the part of an economic war waged by Washington to get Venezuela's oil. That's a very familiar theme with him.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: He did say he'd be willing to engage in talks, saying that even if I have to go to these naked, I'm willing to do so. It was a rather compelling moment. But previous talks, remember, with the opposition haven't proved fruitful. And Guaido's indicated that he's not interested in these. His mantra is, Maduro must go, then there's a transitional period under his interim presidency and new elections.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In the meantime, what's the status of the U.S. diplomats whom Maduro says he's expelling?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, you know, this is a very critical issue here. The nonessential staff and families headed out to the airport this morning in a convoy. But of course staff is staying. Maduro gave U.S. diplomats 72 hours to leave the country on Wednesday when he severed diplomatic relations with Washington. But the U.S. says that that order is invalid because it no longer recognizes him as president. And the deadline set by Maduro comes up on Sunday. And, really, what happens then? You know, it isn't clear. Guaido, meanwhile, who's, remember, declared himself interim president, says - he says that the American diplomats should stay and that the U.S. Embassy should stay open.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's NPR's Philip Reeves. Philip, thank you.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: You're welcome.

Competing proposals to end the shutdown failed in the Senate. President Trump continues to press for money for a border wall and Democrats say they won't negotiate until the government reopens.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Today is the 34th day of the longest government shutdown in history. And on Capitol Hill, the Senate took their very first votes on bills to reopen the government.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: That's right. One bill, backed by President Trump, would have reopened the government in exchange for $5.7 billion for a border wall. The other bill, backed by Democrats, would have opened the government for a short time to keep talking about the border. Now, both of these bills failed, but taking the step of voting seemed to shake up negotiations that have been stalled for weeks.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Minority Leader Chuck Schumer went immediately into a meeting to discuss an alternative path forward, one that could reopen the government and give lawmakers a few more weeks to work out the details. NPR's congressional reporter Kelsey Snell joins us now from Capitol Hill. And Kelsey, can you give us a sense of whether this new development is a sign of real progress?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Well, it's kind of hard to tell at this point because things came together really quickly after those two votes failed. A group of about 18 senators from both parties, almost evenly split, went to the Senate floor and they started talking about a plan for a three-week spending bill to reopen the government just to let the talks continue. And South Carolina Republican Lindsey Graham was one of them. He said he'd already brought the idea to President Trump, and Graham said Congress needs to agree to give Trump clear parameters for talking about border security and spending. Here's what he said.</s>LINDSEY GRAHAM: You're not giving President Trump a bunch of money to do anything he wants to with. He's got to spend it on a plan that the professionals have come up with.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: And he said Democrats would get some things they want, too.</s>LINDSEY GRAHAM: You want $800 million for refugee assistance. You'll get it. We all need more judges. Two-hundred-fifty more border patrol agents on the border would be good for us all.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: How are leaders responding to this idea?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Well, as you said, McConnell and Schumer went and had a meeting about it right after the votes. And they talked about the possibilities, and by the time it was over, Schumer came out and he was smiling. He told all of his reporters that they were continuing to talk. But it's really hard to tell right now how far those talks will go, in part because the president followed up by saying he needs a down payment on the wall before he can agree. And that's something we know Democrats have rejected so far.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The impression has been that the Senate has been completely taking a back seat in these talks. But now it seems, clearly, the majority leader is engaged. Do we know what sparked this uptick in talks?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: People on the Hill are getting incredibly irritated. They want a deal, and every time they hear from constituents or they turn on the television, there's a new story about the impact of this shutdown on people who are voting for them and people who are hurting. Ohio Republican Rob Portman told many of his reporters that this shouldn't be so hard and that there's actually a deal to be had.</s>ROB PORTMAN: Shutdowns are always stupid. This is a particularly stupid one because the underlying problem is one we can resolve. We're not that far - this is not health care.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: He also said this isn't abortion, this isn't a kind of social issue that divides the two parties. It is a conversation about border security, which in the abstract is something that both parties agree on. And that's kind of been the feeling from both parties.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Are House Democrats sharing that same frustration?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Yeah. They have passed several bills that all send the same message that they want to reopen the government first and then talk about border security later. And they passed another one this week. They're getting really annoyed with the White House, too, because essentially they're calling the White House callous. They're really upset about some comments in particular that were made today by Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross. He was talking on CNBC and seemed to downplay the seriousness of the impact of the shutdown on workers. Here's what he said.</s>WILBUR ROSS: I don't really quite understand why because the obligations that they would undertake - say, borrowing from a bank or a credit union - are, in effect, federally guaranteed. So the 30 days of pay that some people will be out, there's no real reason why they shouldn't be able to get a loan against it.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: And we've been focused on the Senate, but House Democrats, are they offering anything new in terms of these negotiations?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Yeah. Behind the scenes, Speaker Nancy Pelosi is working on a new proposal that would detail all of the border security spending they would be willing to do once the government reopens. Now, that's the important part, right? Once the government reopens. And what I'm told is that all together the money they're talking about proposing could meet or exceed the president's demand for $5.7 billion for a border wall. It just wouldn't be spent on the border wall. It would be spent on other types of border security, which Democrats say they gladly would support.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's NPR's Kelsey Snell. Kelsey, thank you.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Thank you.

NPR's Audie Cornish talks with David Brooks of The New York Times and E.J. Dionne of The Washington Post and Brookings Institution about a deal to end the government shutdown.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: News cameras captured the FBI's arrest of longtime Trump associate Roger Stone at his home in Florida this morning. A crowd chanting lock him up met Stone at the courtroom steps after his indictment.</s>ROGER STONE: There is no circumstance whatsoever under which I will bear false witness against the president, nor will I make up lies to ease the pressure on myself.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: But by late afternoon, all eyes were on the White House Rose Garden. There, President Trump announced he would sign a stopgap bill to fund the government and continue negotiations over increasing funding for border security even though it did not include money for his border wall.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They keep drugs out, and they dramatically increase efficiency by allowing us to patrol far larger areas with far fewer people. It's just common sense. Walls work.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: We're going to talk about this now with our regular week in politics team. I'm joined by E.J. Dionne of The Washington Post and Brookings Institution. Hey there, E.J.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: Good to see you, Audie.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: And David Brooks of The New York Times, welcome to the studio.</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So the president once said he'd own the shutdown. He did. How did he handle it? Who wants to go first?</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: He capitulated. This is remarkable. He said, I'm shutting the government down because I want a wall. And there is no wall here. He is taking the deal he could have gotten a month ago without any shutdown at all, without any of the damage that happened and without any of the damage to his poll numbers, which really have been tanking. And I think it was very important that Democrats stand up here because they were saying, we'll negotiate anything, but we will not negotiate under pressure like this. And I think it's a great victory for Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, but particularly for Nancy Pelosi.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Although let me jump in here for a second because the speaker was asked today, look; did we all just witness a failed power play by the president? Here's what she had to say.</s>NANCY PELOSI: The point is today we have come to a way to go forward to debate the best ways to protect our border. I don't see this as any power play.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: David Brooks, she's taking the high road there.</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: (Laughter) Yeah.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: What do you think of that response?</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: I don't know anybody who doesn't think it's a massive defeat for the president. I'm a Mets fan. I know what losing looks like. And this is taking it to a new level. You know, his approvals - the latest poll I saw, 34 percent approval, the lowest ever - Mitch McConnell like - acting like he wasn't in the same universe as Donald Trump, most Republicans feeling that way.</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: On the way over to the studio, I turned on "The Sean Hannity Show" to see where - how his folks reacting, and Hannity was trying to defend the deal. But his callers were having none of it. They said they were depressed and down. And so it's possible Trump's ratings will go even lower because he's sort of offended the middle, and now he's sort of offended at least a piece of his base.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: Ann Coulter, who was one of the people who pushed him to this strategy, basically said that now he's more of a wimp than George H.W. Bush, which is really negative in the light of the far-right. Breitbart's headline was "Very Disappointed." I think there is just no question that it's a capitulation. And what's really difficult for Trump is the lesson here is, stand up to him, and you can win. That doesn't bode well for him going forward.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Right. This also comes after the back and forth over the State of the Union with the House speaker saying basically, no, you can't come while the government is shut down. And we'll see if that goes forward. Given that this is a stopgap, given this debate will go on for another few weeks, will we be in the same place three weeks from now?</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: I really find hard to believe that Trump is going to do anything but capitulate again in three weeks. I just don't see why he set this up so he has - in another three weeks, he's got to say, I'm sorry; it's not going to happen again.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: But he said he might pull other levers. Haven't his people talked about...</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: He might do the emergency thing.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: ...Emergency declaration?</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: And then it would go to the courts and then maybe to the Supreme Court. But his political standing will not be better in three weeks. Republican support will not be better in three weeks. The people willing to stand with him will not be better in three weeks. It's just the function of these things that you - people who shut down the government always have a great first move because it seems so bold. They never have a second or third or fourth move. And I - there's still going to be no second or third or fourth move for him.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: I was with a group with Pelosi today. And one of the things that she said is that they are going to look at legislation to ban shutdowns in the future. And I think this would be a very good thing for all sides of our politics. Essentially if you don't have a bill, you continue funding it the previous year - or the current year. So you just can't use this tactic anymore. This was very painful. It was very dangerous. You looked at what was happening with the airlines. We should argue about politics in other ways. That's why I think this is so important. It may actually be the shutdown that will end all shutdowns. But maybe that's wishful thinking.</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: That's what Woodrow Wilson said.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: (Laughter).</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Now, coming back to the Justice Department news of the day - special counsel Mueller's indictment of Roger Stone. Stone's basically been accused of lying to the House Intelligence Committee. The background to this is there's always been scrutiny of Stone over what he did or didn't know about the source, content, timing of the 2016 DNC email hack which was traced back to Russian intelligence according to U.S. security officials.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So the question is, how does this add to the president's troubles, right? You now have the majority in charge. Adam Schiff, head of House Intelligence, already is, like, you know, I've got some ideas and more questions about this person who, you know, Mueller is saying lied to us - David?</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: Well, Stone has been a famous sleazeball and self-admitted sleazeball since the Nixon days. He doesn't hide that fact. Even I was surprised by the audaciousness of his lying. One of the things he lied about - he said he had no text or email contact ever with a certain radio host. On the day he said that to a congressional committee, he just exchanged 30 texts with the guy. And so that's just audacious lying.</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: I actually think in terms of the whole overall picture, it shows that Trump surrounds himself with very bad people. But it also suggests there's probably no collusion. If there was a direct channel between the Trump campaign and the Russians, why would they be having Donald - Roger Stone begging a radio host for information? They wouldn't be doing that. They'd actually have a channel. And so to me, in a weird way, this suggests there probably was no direct channel or collusion.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: See; it's funny. I read this very differently. Perhaps not surprisingly, I think that the lies that Roger Stone was telling - you know, for example, something from the Mueller report - after the July 22, 2016 release of stolen DNC emails by Organization 1, senior Trump official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases. It was very clear that the Trump campaign wanted this information, and it was widely known that this information had been stolen by the Russians.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: So I think this is actually another step toward the collusion story. And we also - we obviously already have mountains of evidence about various meetings that Trump officials had with Russian officials. So I think this is one more step in that direction. The question that we'll have to answer is, what did Trump know about all of this? It's very hard for me to think even Trump would - you know, who can be disengaged - would not know anything about what was going on.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: David, I'm going to give the last word to you. Looking at the whole of the day in Trump today politically, does this bode well for the next two years?</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: People who are on his side were saying that if he loses this showdown with Pelosi, it would end his presidency. That's a little overdramatic. But it's hard to see a lot of people wanting to walk up any hills with him at the moment, and I include even my Republican friends.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: E.J., for you, do you see something hopeful maybe for Democrats?</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: Well, oh, - well, I see something hopeful for the country - I mean, putting aside it is clearly a victory for Pelosi. But I think it says that when we go about governing ourselves, we ought to have real debates about things like border security, but we should do them in an absolutely normal way. And this was a victory for normal, small-d, democratic politics.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: E.J. Dionne of The Washington Post and Brookings Institution, thank you.</s>E J DIONNE, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: David Brooks of The New York Times, thank you so much.</s>DAVID BROOKS, BYLINE: Thank you.

After airing a piece featuring a federal worker who wasn't sure if he could get his son a birthday present, a number of NPR listeners wrote to us wanting to help.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The shutdown has brought a lot of stories about people suffering over the last month. Now, a brief moment to talk about how good people can be to one another.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Our co-host Ari Shapiro reported yesterday from the small town of Oakdale, La. And one of the voices he brought us was Nathan Dyer. He is a prison worker whose young son has a birthday today. Here he is.</s>NATHAN DYER: My wife talked about last night, like, I mean, I know years down the road he'll never remember it because he's 2. He won't remember it. But we talked Friday night about, like, what are we going to buy him? You know what I mean?</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Ari is back in the studio now. And I gather, even before this story aired, you were getting signs it was going to hit everybody the way it hit me in there - just choke us all up.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Yeah. We included that clip of tape in a promo for the story that started airing yesterday morning, and immediately, I got this flood of message from listeners saying, how can we help?</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: It wasn't even my story, but I also was getting flooded by listener messages. One of them called my voicemail while we were on air while this story was airing and left this message. This is Barbara Scott of Goochland, Va.</s>BARBARA SCOTT: My heart just went out to this gentleman, and I would like to send a check to him. It will be small. I'm old and retired.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: We got so many messages like that on Twitter and Facebook and email and voicemail. And I referred all of these listeners offering gas cards, gifts, money to the local union president, Corey Trammel. And when I called him today to check in, he was kind of amazed.</s>COREY TRAMMEL: There was another 50 people this morning. And last night, I probably seen 50 to 75 emails.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: He said it gave him so much hope just to hear from parents of young kids, people who might not have much still saying, what can I do?</s>COREY TRAMMEL: We have grown men that's never even met us crying for us because that's how big of a deal. And, dude, that's American. That's exactly what that is.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: That does feel American. Meanwhile, what happened to Nathan, the man whose son has his birthday today, turning 2?</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: We also called Nathan this afternoon, and he was totally in shock.</s>NATHAN DYER: Me and my wife, you know, we sat at the table last night and just couldn't believe that all of this was happening.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: You know, he was anticipating that not having been paid for a month today was going to be a really hard day, his son's birthday, where he would not be able to provide for his kid. And I asked him how he will look back on this day now.</s>COREY TRAMMEL: I can't wait till he gets older to where he can understand so I can go back and show him that, you know, there still is good people in this world, you know, that they'll look out for a complete stranger to make sure that, you know, they're OK.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Beautiful end to a really tough story. Thanks, Ari.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: You're welcome.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: It's our co-host Ari Shapiro following up to his reporting yesterday from Louisiana.

Rahsaan Bahati followed an unlikely path to becoming a pro cyclist. He talks about how the sport has impacted his life and the controversy surrounding doping in the cycling world.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Twenty-five-year-old Rahsaan Bahati is a rising star in the world of professional cycling. For the past seven years, he's been racing road bikes like the kind Lance Armstrong rides. Rahsaan has already won two of the most prestigious races in the U.S., and his dream is to compete in the world's most famous cyclist race - the Tour de France. Rahsaan says his love of the sport began when he was a teenager.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): I was going to Davis Middle School in Compton. I was seventh grade or eight grade, I don't really remember. But I do remember being in class and, you know, acting a fool a little bit, but it was - there's a story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" because I was getting into so much trouble, you know, week in and week out. The day that I really need to go to the rest room, the teacher didn't believe me. And I was hurting inside out, I was like, teach - Reggie Garner(ph) - he's the teacher. I said, teacher, I really need to go. Mr. Garner, please. And he didn't let me go.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): So in my anger and frustration, I threw the eraser at him. And it hit him. And then the next day, he found out that I did it. And he told me a young lady ratted me out and I wish I knew who she was this day because she pretty much changed my life. It was because of her, he got me involved in cycling, you know. He said, you know, you need to choose something to do with your extra energy. He said you could choose biking or golf. And that's the time...</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's a really interesting reaction for someone you just hit in the head with an eraser.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): He's a very good - he's a good man. He's a very good man. And to add to that story, his son was also a racer, African-American kid. So I tried it, and I didn't like it at first because it was part of, I guess, a punishment so I didn't look at it as it was fun. But my dad invested about $60 in me. He bought me a jersey and some shorts. When the program was over, I thought that was it for me. But when it came around the next year, my dad pretty much made me go back because he invested $60. And from that day on, I started to enjoy it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what kind of races do you do specifically?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): I race road bikes, bicycles like Lance Armstrong race. And, basically, we do anywhere from 60 to 150 miles in a day.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what do you feel when you start a race and what do you feel when someone is coming up behind you?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Well, most of the time if it's a big race, I don't sleep well. I have butterflies, I'm always visualizing the finish, what can go wrong. It may sound bad, but I actually do think about what if somebody crash in front of me, which way do I go, if I get a flat, what would I do, you know, things like that. And people behind me, I don't really worry about them because if they're behind me...</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): ...they're behind me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I was reading one of your blogs. You have a couple of blogs. In 2006, at one point, you crashed. What happened then, and how did you feel about it?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Crashing is never fun. I mean, we're not protected by anything. We're wearing basically a spandex, you know, and going 30-plus miles an hour in the country is no fun at all. And sometimes you crash, it's your fault. Sometimes you crash, and it's not your fault, you know. And that's part of the sport. And I learned that a while a go that you can't really get down yourself from crashing because it's part of the sport, you know.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You write on your blog about Major Taylor(ph)...</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: ...who's - I've read a little bit about his story before, but he's a real unsung hero.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Yeah, he is.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tell us about him.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Well, back in the 1800s, there was a guy. His birth name was Marshall Taylor. And they named him - his nickname - Major Taylor because he was just bad(ph) good.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And this is in the early 1900s.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Late 1800s to the early 1900s. So in the early 1900s, he started to race. And he became like three or four-time world champion. He set tons of records - one mile, two mile, three-mile records. But he was forced to leave America because of discrimination. And he raced a lot in England, in France. And they loved him over there. And he became a superstar.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): He means a lot to me and I look to him when I'm struggling a lot, you know. I go through some discrimination now, today, racing, and I always think about him, you know. He did a race. A guy intentionally knocked him over. He got back on his bike. He did - he finished the race, and he went back over and he shook the hand of the guy who knocked him over.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mm-hmm.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): I always remember that story and I always think about that because to do that, I mean, that takes a real man, you know. I just went through something very similar in Wisconsin, you know.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Someone ran you off the track...</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): He didn't run me off to - but - off the road. He used some very racist terms as I was racing. And I could easily retaliate it by being physical with him, but I didn't. I took the higher road. And I feel good about it, you know, and I thought about Major Taylor when I did that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. Yeah. What else has cycling thought you - about yourself, about the world?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Well, about myself, I've learned that you can always go harder. You should never quit. I've been in tons of races where I wanted to quit and give up, but I just learned to never quit. And my dad always used cycling and school, hand in hand, you know?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): When I was messing up in school, he says, you know, you're not going to succeed in this if you don't succeed in that. Just the way you go out and train in bike racing, you have to apply that to your education. I've started to use that a lot in my marriage and with my kids. Just rolling it over because it's the same principles, you know, all the way across the board.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How long can you expect a career like yours to last? And what are you looking ahead to years down the road?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Typically, in cycling, you can race at a high level to maybe 35, 36 years old and then your body kind of starts to set down a little bit. That's not my goal. I want to make it to the Tour de France in the next couple of years. I'll be 27. Maybe do that for a few more years, and I would love to retire, you know, from cycling at around 30, 31 years old, you know, and spend more time at home. I've been doing this since I was 13 years old, and it's been nonstop.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): I love this sport, and, like I said, I just - I see myself retiring early and doing something to help people who look like me out at the Lombard Park or whatever inner city to get into the sport because even if you don't want to compete, it's really fun. It's good for you, you know. And I think it helps you as a person to just get out and be free on a bike.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Doping - many, many more instances of people who've been winning major races getting basically caught...</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Yeah.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: ...after the races. Is it a good thing that this is exposed?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Oh, it is a good thing that it's exposed. But the one thing I don't like about is how the media really bashes it. In every other sport, guys get caught doping - baseball, football and they really don't make that big of a deal out of it, you know?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): When Mark McGwire was busted for steroids, they kind of swept it under the rug. They brought it to our attention but they didn't really bash it like they did with Floyd Landis when he won the Tour or like they're doing the guy, Rasmussen, the Danish guy who was in the lead at the Tour and had to abandon.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): I just think that cycling gets a really, really bad name from doping scandals. And I think all the way across the board there's guys that are doping in every sport, but for some reason, we're getting the bad end of the stick. And I don't agree to doping at all.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Have you ever thought about it?</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Not in the fact that I was looking for a doctor or anything like that. I think when you're losing a race and this same guy is beating you day in and day out, you're wondering, wow, what is he taking, maybe I need to get some of that, and I say that a lot jokingly.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): But to me, it's not worth it. I have too much to lose, you know. I mean, look at what they're doing to Barry Bonds, and he's big time. I'm just a small fish so I think if I was to get that on me, it wouldn't be good for my career. Like I said, I want to retire at 30. That would really put a damper to the future, you know. If I wanted to be into cycling doing something else, I think that would really set me back and people will hold that against me. I'm doing fine without it. I've been winning without it for the last 10 years, you know, so.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Rahsaan, we wish you the best in all your further adventures.</s>Mr. RAHSAAN BAHATI (Cyclist): Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Rahsaan Bahati is a professional cyclist. He's on the cover of this month's Road magazine. You can watch a video of his recent win at the Manhattan Beach Grand Prix at our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org.

Prison guards have to be tough on the job. But after weeks of working without pay, corrections officers at a federal prison in rural Louisiana are feeling exhaustion, stress and high emotions.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: For government workers who aren't getting paid, the shutdown feels more dire every week, every day. Savings dry up. The bills keep coming. In the small town of Oakdale, La., working at the federal prison was a ticket to financial security - good salary, good benefits. Now the people with those jobs are making extreme decisions about how to keep their families afloat. Our co-host Ari Shapiro traveled to Oakdale to meet some of them.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: If Louisiana is a boot, Oakdale is the ankle, smack in the middle of the state, more than three hours' drive from New Orleans or Houston. A typical family in Oakdale makes about $30,000 a year. People at the prison earn thousands more than that from day one, so these were the jobs people were excited to get.</s>COREY TRAMMEL: In all of my years, I never thought that America couldn't pay their workers.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Corey Trammel is one of the local union leaders at the Federal Correctional Institution.</s>COREY TRAMMEL: I thought of a whole lot that could go wrong in the prison setting but never to have an employee look me in the eyes and tell me, I cannot afford child care; I cannot afford gas to get to work; I can't afford my mortgage. How do you answer something like that?</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: The union arranged for us to meet some of the workers in town who are most affected by the shutdown - corrections officers, case managers, secretaries. We sat down with them at the Burger Inn, a local restaurant that's been in Oakdale since the '70s.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Five dollars even is your change, Sir. Thank you very much.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: The managers are offering a special $5 meal for federal workers. Many of the people we met told us they can't even afford that right now, like Nathan Dyer. He's a big, burly guy who looks the part of a prison guard.</s>NATHAN DYER: I pray every morning on my way to work.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: What is the prayer that you say?</s>NATHAN DYER: Just hoping it - you know, it'll end soon. I think about a lot. Like, my little boy's birthday is Friday. And me and my wife talked about last night, like, we - I mean, I know years down the road, he'll never remember 'cause he's 2. He won't remember. But we're talking Friday night about, like, what are we going to buy him, you know what I mean?</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: The emotions just pour out of everyone. This conversation is the first time in a month that some of these people have let down their defenses with each other.</s>ANITA KADROVIC: We have a armor up, so some of the emotions that we've seen in here today we normally don't see because we're all supposed to be tough. We work in a prison. We're not supposed to show feeling.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: This is Anita Kadrovich, a single mother. She spends her days driving inmates to medical appointments, but she's been postponing her own medical care. She has rheumatoid arthritis.</s>ANITA KADROVIC: Walgreen (ph) has called me five times to come get my prescriptions and stuff. I can't. I live 45 minutes away from Walgreens, so I'll make one trip whenever it gets time where I have to go and get my medicine and stuff and bring it home.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: She has the time to make the 45-minute drive, but she doesn't have the gas money, so she needs to stack her errands before she goes to the town of Alexandria. A lot of people are having trouble buying gas. It's under $2 a gallon right now, and some still can't afford the commute to work. So the prison has set up cots for employees who can't make it back and forth each day.</s>ANITA KADROVIC: It's a good idea to have the cots and stuff for the staff. Well, when you're a single parent and you have teenage kids at home, you have to go home at night to make sure they're OK and they're taken care of. And you can't just leave them home alone.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Anita's son is 16 years old. She's canceled his after-school activities. There's no money for them even though she is still working more than 40 hours every week.</s>ANITA KADROVIC: And, you know, so now it's breaking everybody down. And then you got inmates taunting you, saying, oh, you didn't get a check today (laughter).</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: They do that.</s>ANITA KADROVIC: Yes, they do that.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: A lot of federal workers are in very difficult situations where they're not dealing every day with inmates who are trying to take advantage of those difficult situations. And that must make it all the more challenging. I mean, you're talking about being taunted. Can any of you tell me about how the inmates are responding to or trying to take advantage of this?</s>NATHAN DYER: You know, these inmates - you know they see - like you said, they see us not getting a paycheck, so that makes them more apt to try to bribe you. Hey, man, look; I'll give you $1,500 you bring a cellphone in, or I'll give you $500 for a pack of cigarettes. And it might not stop at a cellphone. It could be anything - dope, a gun. It puts that much more stress on everybody as a whole.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Yeah.</s>NATHAN DYER: It's insane.</s>TIFFANY KIRKLIN: A lot of them think it's funny. I had one tell me he made more this month than I have. And he's - it's true because he got a paycheck, and I did not.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: That's Tiffany Kirklin. Prisoners work jobs behind bars and get paid less than minimum wage, still more than the guards are making right now. As bad as this situation is, it just seems to keep getting worse each day the shutdown continues. One event that happened last week is on everyone's mind. Nathan is the first one in the circle to bring it up.</s>NATHAN DYER: Like, this dude tried to take his life. And he's - you know, he's a good person. And, like, it's that serious to people. Like, people don't understand.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: The whole group knows the prison guard who attempted suicide. He posted on Facebook about the pressure of the shutdown just before he tried to kill himself. The man is expected to make a full recovery.</s>NATHAN DYER: It's unbelievable how many people don't realize. Like, I hear people, like, on different radio stations and stuff. Like, I heard today, and it made me so mad. I was furious. I heard these two guys say that - they were talking about how, like, restaurants and stuff will give you discounts. And they were like, these federal workers - they're, like, stray cats. You feed them once, and they're going to keep staying around. Like, I wanted to beat my stereo plum out the truck.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: And when you're at work, you look around, and you know that everybody there...</s>NATHAN DYER: Yeah, everybody's suffering.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: ...Is going through what you all are describing.</s>TIFFANY KIRKLIN: You don't know what somebody's situation is. I don't know...</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: This is Tiffany.</s>TIFFANY KIRKLIN: Yeah, I don't know what Nathan's situation is. And we can say, well, they should have had savings, but you don't know what they had to go through. People are having to get second jobs. My husband can't be here tonight because he's working a second job.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: What kind of job did he take?</s>TIFFANY KIRKLIN: Right now he's stocking at a convenience store.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Nobody who met us at the Burger Inn wanted to talk about politics. Border wall or no wall, they just said they resent powerful people using them as ammunition in this fight. As union leader Ronald Morris put it...</s>RONALD MORRIS: We don't want to be pawns in anybody's game.</s>ARI SHAPIRO, BYLINE: In another part of the program, we'll explore how the consequences of this shutdown are rippling out across the town of Oakdale beyond the government employees who've been working without pay.</s>RODRICK JAMES: Them few hundred had a ripple effect because they have to go a barbershop, get haircuts. They had to come to different kind of restaurants and eat. Oh, that's not got to cease when you're not getting a paycheck, so everybody start suffering on the back end of this.

The World Bank is searching for a new president after the last one abruptly resigned. The position has traditionally gone to an American, but there could be international competition this time around.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The World Bank is looking for a new president. The current president, Jim Yong Kim, abruptly resigned. Traditionally, the president of the huge global development bank has been an American. But now, there are calls to open up the position to international candidates. NPR's Jackie Northam reports.</s>JACKIE NORTHAM, BYLINE: Since the World Bank was formed in the wake of the Second World War, the U.S. has always chosen its president. That's because the U.S. is the largest shareholder in the World Bank Group. Nancy Birdsall, the founding president of the nonpartisan Center for Global Development, says it's part of a tacit agreement that the Europeans have gone along with for decades.</s>NANCY BIRDSALL: They have a deal where the Americans get the head of the World Bank and the Europeans have a lock similar on naming the head of the International Monetary Fund.</s>JACKIE NORTHAM, BYLINE: But President Trump's openly hostile attitude to multilateral institutions such as the World Bank and his confrontational stance towards European allies could shake up the nomination for a new leader of the bank. Johannes Linn, a former World Bank vice president now at the Brookings Institution, says the U.S. doesn't have a veto on the choice.</s>JOHANNES LINN: If the U.S. puts forward a candidate who is not credible or could even raise significant opposition, then, you know, it's possible that a credible candidate from elsewhere could get the support of a majority of voters.</s>JACKIE NORTHAM, BYLINE: Linn says the board introduced a merit-based selection process several years ago, but so far, it hasn't made much of a difference. The last time a World Bank president was chosen in 2012, there were strong international candidates, but an American still got the position. Birdsall says Jim Yong Kim's seven years in the job got mixed reviews. She said he was able to secure a $13 billion capital increase for the bank. But she says his attempts to restructure the organization only created more problems.</s>NANCY BIRDSALL: A lot of people internally expressed a lot of concern including about a kind of hemorrhage of very good, experienced longtime staff at the top level during Kim's stint there, including many women.</s>JACKIE NORTHAM, BYLINE: The change in leadership comes as the World Bank is facing competition from regional development banks. China, which receives loans from the World Bank, has launched its own massive international development program. Congressman Andy Barr, a Republican from Kentucky, says that undermines U.S. interests overseas.</s>ANDY BARR: You know, it's not a stretch to see a kind of colonialism that is going on and why the United States would tolerate taxpayer funds going to an international organization, a multilateral development bank that is in turn enabling an adversary to grow its influence around the world. That's the concern.</s>JACKIE NORTHAM, BYLINE: Barr says for that reason, he can't see anyone else but an American leading the World Bank. Some of the names being floated include David Malpass, a senior Treasury Department official, and Nikki Haley, former ambassador to the U.N. Ivanka Trump's name briefly rose to the surface, but administration officials say the president's daughter is not a contender. Nominations for the post open February 7. Jackie Northam, NPR News, Washington.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly talks with former Ambassador to Venezuela Patrick Duddy about the Trump administration's push to oust Nicolás Maduro as president of Venezuela.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Well, relations between Venezuela and the U.S. have been challenging for a long time. It's been nearly nine years since the U.S. had a full ambassador in Venezuela. The man who held that job is on the line now, Patrick Duddy. Ambassador Duddy, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.</s>PATRICK DUDDY: Thank you very much for having me.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Well, let me ask you, as someone who has served as U.S. ambassador under both Republican and Democratic administrations, do you agree with the current U.S. policy with no longer recognizing President Maduro and siding with the opposition leader Juan Guaido?</s>PATRICK DUDDY: Yes, I do. This is really an evolution, not so much a departure. In recent years, the U.S. has in fact sanctioned several dozen senior Venezuelan officials for either undermining democracy, their complicity in various illegal activities or for egregious human rights violations.</s>PATRICK DUDDY: Beginning some months ago, we also restricted access for the de facto regime of Nicolas Maduro to the U.S. financial system. Things have changed both internally and externally in recent months. And I think that recognition of Juan Guaido as the interim president is a logical development. The administration of Nicolas Maduro has led the country to the brink of complete disaster. It's really a failing state now. And his last election was widely viewed as a complete sham.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: On the other hand, he did win it. And there are many critics who would argue that the U.S. should get out of the business of regime change in Latin America.</s>PATRICK DUDDY: Well, what you're asserting - that he won - was really a kind of choreography, which is why it's not just the United States, but most of South America, the EU, Britain, Canada, are all recognizing Guaido. And to a very large extent, what we have seen in the last few years has been a very careful effort by the United States to make clear our unhappiness and, indeed, concern for the well-being of Venezuelans. But at the same time, the U.S., for instance, has refrained - at least, to this point - from directly sanctioning the oil industry, which is their principal source of income, out of fear that it would impose even greater hardship on the Venezuelan people.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: What are the risks of this approach, of backing someone as president who has never been elected president of this country?</s>PATRICK DUDDY: Well, it is certainly a very dangerous moment in Venezuela. Now, Guaido emerges from what is widely recognized as in fact the last genuinely democratic institution in the country. But Nicolas Maduro remains the de facto president with apparently the support of the military.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: What is the risk if things don't go the way the U.S. would like to see them go in Venezuela? Nicolas Maduro stays in power. With Russia and China and Iran and other countries lined up behind him, do we risk good even further deterioration in U.S.-Venezuela relations?</s>PATRICK DUDDY: Well, it would be hard for things to be any worse than they are now.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Fair.</s>PATRICK DUDDY: But certainly things will continue to be very, very bad. Now, what will happen with the oil industry is an open question. Maduro has announced that he's pulling all of his diplomats out of the country. The U.S. remains their largest client for oil. So how he hopes to finesse this issue and whether or not the U.S. agrees to continue both to purchase Venezuelan oil and what will happen with the receipts from those purchases is not clear to me.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: That's Patrick Duddy, former U.S. ambassador to Venezuela. He is now director of Duke's Center for Latin American and Caribbean Studies. Ambassador Duddy, thank you.</s>PATRICK DUDDY: You're very welcome.

Three memoir authors join Farai Chideya to talk about the craft of writing your own story. Dominick Carter is author of No Momma's Boy. Kym Ragusa memoir is titled The Skin Between Us, and Thulani Davis put her family history down in My Confederate Kinfolk.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's one thing to write fiction. It's another thing to translate the story of your own life. How do you navigate through the pain and bias of personal experience to find a truth that's both personal and universal?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Continuing our series on the black literary imagination, we turn to three writers who've taken on the unique challenges of the memoir. Kym Ragusa's book "The Skin Between Us" explores her attempts to negotiate the different worlds of her mother and father, one African-American, the other, Italian-American. Dominic Carter's memoir "No Momma's Boy" mines painful memories of his mother's mental illness and the abuse he suffered because of it. Also with us, Thulani Davis, her memoir "My Confederate Kinfolk" documents her search for the truth about her Southern white ancestors.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome, everyone.</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): Thank you.</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): Thank you.</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Thulani, why is the memoir such a big part of the publishing world? And what motivated you to do yours?</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): I'm not sure why it's such a big part of the publishing world, except that I think human beings have always been fascinated with how people tell their own stories. And I think that's just more true than ever now. I hadn't intended to write one. I started out writing a novel and I was doing the research for that, and I got so fascinated with the people I found that I thought maybe I would do this first.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Kym, let me turn to you. What's the difference, in your mind, between the memoir and the biography?</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): The biography or the autobiography or...</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yes, the autobiography.</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): Okay. I would say that the autobiography is a kind of story of great lives and great achievements, and it starts from the beginning of a person's life and it kind of moves through that life toward the achievements that person has had, and it's kind of a looking back at the life. And memoir, I think, is much more intimate and it's much more a story of - as an event or a series of events or themes in a person's life, and trying to make sense of those themes and events. And I'd say you could write a number of memoirs in a lifetime, but maybe one autobiography.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Kym, your book reads with the literary texture of a novel. Thulani, yours is extensively historically researched. And Dominic, your book has a strong cautionary aspect to it. You each seemed to write in a different form. Dominic, why did you write in the form that you did? And was it a conscious decision?</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): It was a very conscious decision for me, Farai, in terms of - and it was very difficult because I was going back over my entire life in terms of - as a child, I was trying to write the book as an adult, but also from the perspective of a child - because the fact of the matter is, in my memoir, I was sexually abused by my mother and it was - and very important to me that one, as I went back over everything, of course, it had to be factual. But I had to be able to tell the story in terms of how I saw it as a 7-year-old child. And believe it or not, I still remember the pain from being sexually abused as far as an emotional pain from my mom.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dominic, we're going to ask all of you to read us a short bit of your memoir. But, Dominic, can you start us out?</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): Sure. And I hope the audience doesn't find this offensive. But this is my life in terms of - it's the end of chapter one. I'm 7 years old, young man, grew up in New York City, and I was just sexually abused by the woman that gave me birth, my mentally ill mother. And it starts this way, the end of chapter one, page 46.</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): (Reading) Over the years, I often worried asking myself, will I be a freak of nature? Will I ever even want a woman? Who can I tell about this awful stuff? I was years away from puberty, yet to this point, life had handed me one bad card after another. I was conceived in a closet, reared in a ghetto, humbled by poverty, abandoned by my father, and neglected, beaten and sexually abused by my mother, the one person who was supposed to be my biggest protector. When I should have been learning my ABCs, I was instead learning how not to make my mother mad and how to tiptoe around her temper.</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): And here's the final short paragraph.</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): (Reading) I've heard it said that children are free-spirited, but I don't remember ever being free when I was young. My mind and my heart carried a heavy burden as far back as I can remember. As a child, I carried the pain of an adult, and as an adult, I carried the pain of a child.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Dominic, we've had you on before about this, but did you have to forgive before you wrote something like this?</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): Yes. And Farai, I will answer your question. But I - whenever I come on your show - I'm sorry, I just have to make it clear that I am a huge fan of your work, and I am so thankful for what you do in terms of educating Americans, and in particular, people of color. We have to acknowledge...</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, thanks.</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): ...and appreciate the great work that you do as a journalist -perspective. Going back to my mom, I started writing the story, and initially, I did not put in the sexual abuse. And it was only after I received more than 600 pages of her mental records, in which I realized, at the age of 16, my mother was in straitjackets and receiving electrical shock that I decided that I wanted to tell my entire story, and I did have to forgive her. And I feel for the first time in my life that I'm actually free. And the book has aided me in that process of my soul, finally, after all these years of having a deep, dark secret and never revealing it to someone, being free.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now Thulani, what do you think about that same question of forgiveness?</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): I think writing actually forces you to forgive people. It's very hard to write without a sense of love, a sense of compassion, even for characters that - in a fiction work that start out to be the bad people. It's like, ultimately, you have to come to understand people to be able to write about them, and that opens up your heart.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Can you read us a little snippet of your book, which, again, was very deeply researched as well as personal?</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): Sure.</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): (Reading) When my grandmother, Georgia Campbell Neal, died in 1971, she had started writing a book. At the time, we thought she was about 85 years old, though it was well known that she was apt to lie about her age. She was more likely 94. She was writing the story of her parents, Mississippi cotton farmers - one black, one white - who met near Yazoo City, Mississippi, in the 1870s. She began the few pages she wrote with a sunny image of her mother, Chloe Tarrant Curry, and Chloe's husband, James Curry, both former slaves leaving Alabama.</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): It was near train time. Chloe, a buxom, brown, comely woman of 25 and her tall, lean husband, Jim, were feverishly getting their bags and baskets together to go to Mississippi, a place where they were told money could be made easily and honestly. They were leaving their four children with their father - with her father. She promised when she settled in this rich country, she would buy a home for them. The distance they had to travel was about 250 miles. But to them, it seemed far, far away because it took days and they had never left a plantation in Alabama.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what did you learn from this research? And how long did it take you to write this book?</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): The research took me three years and the writing maybe a year. I used to research late at night while working at the Village Voice or waiting for my writers to turn in their copy. And I stayed on the Internet a lot. And the research was like a black hole that sucked me in. I just got so fascinated with what happened to people during the Civil War. And so I kept going and going, and I really - I found out, I guess, first of all, that I knew nothing about my mother, and no one in my family knew anything about her. And it - that made it very hard. It's hard enough to find your ancestors who were slaves. But in a way, I didn't know where to begin other than with my grandmother, who I knew, but I did not know, for instance, that she - where she was from in Mississippi. So I would say I learned so much. I found 500 people I'm related to that I've never heard of.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Wow.</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): So it was quite an adventure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And Kym, you set out on a personal journey. I understand you were involved with an anti-racist group, trying to work out problems between the Italian and black community. So when did that activism turn into a search that you wanted to put on the page?</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): I think that it was a convergence of the activism and coming to understand my own story and coming to peace with my own story. And once that convergence happened, then I felt like I needed to get the story out in public. And to really have this story of these two communities be an alternative to the news reports of the violence and the tension, something that was another kind of story.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Can you read us a little bit?</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): Sure.</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): (Reading) I don't know where I was conceived, but I was made in Harlem. Its topography is mapped on my body: the borderlines between neighborhoods marked by streets that were forbidden to cross, the borderlines enforced by fear and anger, and transgressed by desire. The streets crossing east to west, north to south, like the web of veins beneath my skin.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, when you are writing, you have this very lyrical style and we're really inside your head, how much - and this is a question I want to toss to everyone, but Kym first - how much do you have to know to do things like dialogue? Obviously, when you were a little kid, you weren't actually writing things down and you don't do a lot of sort of retrospective dialogue. But for things like that, how much of a leap of faith do you have to take in your own writing?</s>Ms. KYM RAGUSA (Author, "The Skin Between Us"): I think the thing about dialogue in memoir is that it's really representative. And it can never be the exact words or the exact context, the exact moment that the words happened. And so it really is an act of imagination to think about the flavor of the words, the color of the words, and how those words hit the listener, how those words hit the writer at the time. So it's sort of the emotional resonance of the words for me. And that's why I didn't do a lot of lengthy dialogue. I did sentences here and there, or kind of snippets of dialogue almost like the way I remembered it. I remember kind of voices speaking certain things, and I wanted to get that kind of lyrical sense of memory.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thulani, let me move to you. How did you approach it?</s>Ms. THULANI DAVIS (Author, "My Confederate Kinfolk"): I felt a little nervous about it because, as a journalist, I thought I needed to be scrupulous by - about saying, I think this might have happened this way. And - but to release that voice in myself, particularly at the end when I'm trying to imagine how a woman who had spent the earliest part of her life - or the first 15, 20 years in slavery, how she would feel owning her own land and standing there free, I really had to just say, I see her this way, I imagined her this way, to release some of the texture that I experienced from being in Mississippi and what it looks like to look out on that cotton field, and what it's like to walk in the mud of - in between the rows of cotton, that kind of thing. So I had to sort of give myself permission.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dominic, we just have a little bit of time left. You are - and thank you for the compliment - a fabulous journalist. How did you approach that question?</s>Mr. DOMINIC CARTER (Author, "No Momma's Boy"): Well, for me, with the restraint of time that we have to deal with now, I tried not to deal with actual dialogue unless I knew it was factual. As a journalist, that was the top priority for me, that it had to be factual. The good news for me, in terms of a very bad, negative story in terms of my life, is I received, I would say, about 3,000 pages from mental institutions around the country on my mother. So that was able to help me piece everything together and make sure that it was factual.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I want to thank all you guys. And again, we've been speaking to Dominic Carter, author of "No Momma's Boy: How I Let Go of My Past and Embraced the Future," coming from WAMC in Albany, New York, and also with Kym Ragusa, author of "The Skin Between Us," and Thulani Davis, author of "My Confederate Kinfolk" from our NPR New York studios.

A day after opposition leader Juan Guaidó declared himself Venezuela's leader, President Nicolás Maduro remains in power with the full support of the military.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: One country, two men who say they're president - that's the state of play today in Venezuela one day after opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself interim president. This is awkward because Venezuela already has a president, Nicolas Maduro, who, while increasingly isolated, is refusing to step down. The U.S. is backing Guaido in this fight. And today, the State Department ordered some of its diplomats out of Venezuela. NPR's Philip Reeves is in the capital, Caracas. Hey there, Phil.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Hi.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So let's get up to speed on the latest just in terms of state of play. One key question as this unfolds has been, who controls the military? And they announced their allegiance today. Tell me what happened.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Yes, the defense minister, General Vladimir Padrino Lopez, went on TV. He was surrounded by generals from the army's high command all wearing their uniforms and medals. And he announced that they view Maduro as the legitimate president of Venezuela and their commander in chief. He launched into a diatribe about what he called a coup that's being launched by forces on the far-right aided by what he called imperialists.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Venezuela has eight strategic military command centers around the country, and all of their commanders also separately announced their support for Maduro, a number of them doing that on state-run TV as well. So the army top brass for now is behind Maduro. If he loses their support, it's very likely game over for him. And the opposition, as you know, have been appealing to the army to abandon him and talking about an amnesty, although it's not yet clear how widely that amnesty would apply to the high command.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And what about Maduro himself? Has he been spotted today?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Oh, yes, very much so (laughter). He's been live on TV, making a lengthy speech at the Supreme Court. He is wearing his presidential gold chain and his presidential sash and holding a copy of the Constitution and explaining why he feels that Guaido's announcement that he's the interim president is illegal. At one point, he broke into English and said, hands off Venezuela. There were many attacks on the United States and particularly on Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. He again, as with the military, is characterizing this as an attempted coup which was orchestrated by the U.S.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Some very clear signaling going on there. What about Guaido? Do we know where he is?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: I don't think we do know where he is, but he has been heard from. He's been tweeting, mostly so far tweets thanking the long list of countries mostly in the Western Hemisphere that have stepped up and recognized him as the interim president of Venezuela after he made that announcement in such a dramatic fashion in front of a cheering crowd in the heart of Caracas yesterday. So he's been doing that.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: And there's been one very important development as far as he's concerned, which concerns the fact that the U.S. is now saying that not only do they support and recognize him, but they plan to channel revenues towards him. And that means revenues from the oil that they buy off Venezuela, which is a considerable amount of money.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Right, it's, like, a billion dollars a month. What kind of leverage is the U.S. hoping that might buy?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, it has to be a very serious issue for the Maduro government. Venezuela's oil revenues are their main source of money. The industry is in collapse, but it's still something that is vitally important for the survival of the Maduro regime. So the statement made by John Bolton today that...</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: The U.S. national security adviser.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: ...Yes - they're going to concentrate on trying to channel these revenues towards what the U.S. considers the legitimate government of this country - is a big development in this drama.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And, Phil, you mentioned the huge crowds that were out on the streets yesterday to support Guaido. Are they back today?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: No, they're not. I went to the same area where there was a river of people yesterday going towards that big gathering where he made his announcement. And today it's different. Many shops are shut. The traffic is light. And on the street, there is a feeling of anxiety because Venezuelans have dared to hope for change before and been disappointed. And I think they know that this drama is not yet over by any means.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: NPR's Philip Reeves reporting on a fast-moving situation there in Caracas, Venezuela. Thank you, Phil.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: You're welcome.

Hurricane Dean continues to rip through the Caribbean, with heavy wind and rain storms hitting many of the islands. Tyrone Taborn offers a firsthand account from Jamaica, where the government asked people to head for public shelter as hurricane storms swept across the island.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We're cutting our weekly economic segment a little short to bring you the latest news on Hurricane Dean. The first hurricane of the Atlantic season is bearing down on Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula with sustained winds of 150 miles an hour. It's a Category 4 storm, fast approaching Category 5, passing just south of Jamaica Sunday night, causing flooding and property damage but no deaths.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tyrone Taborn, CEO and publisher of Career Communications Group, is staying in Jamaica's Montego Bay on vacation with his family. He's with us now to tell us what he saw.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tyrone, welcome.</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): Thank you. Hello.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So give me an example of what you guys felt, knowing, as we do now, that Jamaica was spared in some ways.</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): Well, certainly Jamaica was spared. On Montego Bay, where I am, did not take the kind of damage that we all anticipated. But certainly, this was a very, very dangerous hurricane. And my family and I are thankful that we actually survived it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How does...</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): Yesterday - I'm...</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm sorry. Go ahead.</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): Yesterday morning, when we woke up, it was a strong breeze compared to today where there's a whisper of a breeze - of wind and very calm seas, but there were winds coming in. And throughout the day, the winds actually ticked up. You could see the trees - some of these trees, three-story high, being pushed, then the water came.</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): And I don't know if you've ever tried to walk in, you know, against 60-mile winds. But at the very beginning, I said, let me try because the full force of the hurricane hadn't happen. Within seconds, I was drenched and almost felt that I was being lifted, and I knew I needed - if I wanted to live until today, I needed to get inside.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Was your family frightened by this?</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): Everyone was frightened going into it, because not since 1950 -this hurricane was predicted to be the worst since 1950, worse than what happened in 1988. So we were all frightened. But I will tell you, I am amazed with the state of emergency that the government of Jamaica put in place. They were absolutely prepared. They start cutting off electricity when it started in Kingston, and as the Hurricane Dean moved throughout the island, different grids went down and we actually lost electricity around 2 o' clock.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So...</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): The hotel was absolutely prepared - food, water, lots of security guards. There's absolutely no crime happening here in the aftermath.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Finally, how have locals expressed what they felt?</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): The locals are - the Jamaicans are absolutely wonderful people who live under this threat of hurricanes, as you know as well as people in Florida. But they hope for the best. They were - every Jamaican I've spoke to kept saying, it will turn south, right. They were so optimistic, and I think it's because they have done such a wonderful job in rebuilding tourism since 1988. And every Jamaican knew that the future of their country really did rest in what they did. As a tourist here, I just felt absolutely safe and embraced by the wonderful Jamaican people.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Tyrone, thank you so much for your eyewitness account.</s>Mr. TYRONE TABORN (CEO and Publisher, Career Communications Group, Inc): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tyrone Taborn is CEO and publisher of Career Communications Group. He's in Jamaica's Montego Bay on vacation with his family.

Roger Stone worked on the Trump campaign in 2016. His communications about the release of the personal emails from the Clinton campaign chairman have raised the interest of the special counsel.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That indictment we've been talking about contains numerous references to contacts between Stone and people involved with the Trump campaign throughout the summer and fall of 2016. NPR White House correspondent Tamara Keith has been building a timeline of events and has this update in light of the new information alleged by prosecutors.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Let's start with July 22, 2016, just days before the Democratic Party convention.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: WikiLeaks released thousands of emails from the DNC appearing to show favoritism towards...</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Those emails roiled the party convention and prosecutors alleged that day an unnamed senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases or other damaging information WikiLeaks had on the Clinton campaign. The indictment doesn't say who directed the senior campaign official to get in touch with Stone, but it does say that from there on out, Stone told the Trump campaign about potential future WikiLeaks releases.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Three days later, Stone allegedly asked intermediaries to make contact with WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who lives in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. It is worth noting that even this early on, private security firms and the Clinton campaign were drawing connections between the WikiLeaks email dump and Russian intelligence. This was Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook on ABC on July 24, 2016.</s>ROBBY MOOK: And it's troubling that some experts are now telling us that this was done by the Russians for the purpose of helping Donald Trump.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: In what would be a pattern, the Trump campaign dismissed such claims as Team Clinton trying to distract from the contents of the hacked emails. At a press conference that week, candidate Donald Trump denied any connection to Russian President Vladimir Putin. But then he encouraged Russia to go after Hillary Clinton's emails.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: What we know now is that Russia may have been listening. That very day, according to court documents, Russian intelligence attempted to hack into Hillary Clinton's private email server. Later that summer, Stone helped build suspense that WikiLeaks had more coming.</s>ROGER STONE: I actually have communicated with Assange. I believe the next tranche of his documents pertain to the Clinton Foundation. But there's no telling what the October surprise may be.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: By October 2016, speculation had reached a fever pitch.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange promised us that something big was coming.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #3: The question everybody has on their mind is, what exactly does WikiLeaks have?</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: October 4, Julian Assange was set to make an announcement. The day before, according to the indictment, Stone wrote to an unnamed supporter involved in the Trump campaign - quote, "spoke to my friend in London last night. The payload is still coming." But then the announcement from Assange came via video stream.</s>JULIAN ASSANGE: The material that WikiLeaks is going to publish before the end of the year is of a significant moment.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Without delivering the goods, WikiLeaks tweeted, we hope to be publishing every week for the next 10 weeks. Prosecutors write that day, Stone got an email from a high-ranking Trump campaign official asking about the status of WikiLeaks' releases. Stone answered saying WikiLeaks would release a load every week going forward. It's unclear whether he had insider information or was just parroting WikiLeaks' tweet. The latter is what Stone says happened. Then on October 7, The Washington Post published its own October surprise - an unrelated blockbuster.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #4: ...Of a video that captures Donald Trump making vulgar comments about women back in 2005.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: The "Access Hollywood" video was arguably the darkest moment of the Trump campaign. Less than an hour later, though, WikiLeaks released the first tranche of emails hacked from Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta. According to the indictment, an associate of the high-ranking campaign official sent a text to Stone that read, well done. Almost immediately, Trump started talking up WikiLeaks on the campaign trail.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They want to distract us from WikiLeaks. It's been amazing what's coming out on WikiLeaks.</s>TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: And day after day, week after week, the drip, drip, drip of WikiLeaks releases kept coming until Donald Trump was elected president. Roger Stone says he's innocent. Trump's lawyers deny there was any collusion. Tamara Keith, NPR News.

Rapper Talib Kweli, who is known for taking socio-political stances in his music, weighs in the 2008 election and Al Sharpton's criticism of rap music. Kweli's upcoming album, Eardrum, features collaborations with Hi-Tek, Kanye West, KRS-ONE, Jean Grae and Roy Ayers.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: They say you can tell a man by the company he keeps. If that's true, then Talib Kweli's record speak volumes. The hip-hop star has teamed up with some of music's brightest lights.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In 1998, he and Mos Def formed the duo Black Star. Their album produced by Hi-Tek became an underground sensation. Kweli then got a little help from Kanye West on the track "Get By" from his 2002 album "Quality." The single scored big and landed Kweli on the soundtrack of the box-office hit "Stomp the Yard."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Hi-Tek and Kanye are both back on Kweli's new album "Eardrum" along with KRS-ONE, Jean Grae and Roy Ayers. And Talib Kweli is with me now in studio. Talib, thanks for coming in.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mr. TALIB KWELI (Rapper, "Eardrum") Oh, thanks for having me, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. So I remember, years ago, I read from "Don't Believe The Hype," my first book at Nkiru, which you started. So tell me a little bit about how you see your music side relating to your community involvement side.</s>Mr. KWELI: Well, having that job in Nkiru was perfect for me, and I actually sought out that job. I was in NYU, and I wanted to quit school and do music. But I knew that if I did that, I would have to have a job and apartment before I told my parents I quit. So I walked around every single book and music store in the city. That's how I got a job and C.J.(ph) in Nkiru hired me.</s>Mr. KWELI: And, you know, and when you come through for your signing, she was very excited because to see a young black woman who looked like her and that she identified with, was - that was huge for us when you came through. Like - it might have been like years ago for you, but for us it was like, oh, Farai is coming, you know?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: No, no, I was psyched. It was great.</s>Mr. KWELI: Yeah, we were psyched, too. Nkiru allowed me to pay my bills and still participate in that community.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let's hear a little bit from this record. This is "Oh My Stars" featuring Musiq Soulchild.</s>Mr. KWELI: And featuring my kids, Amani and Diyani, who rapped on the beginning.</s>Mr. KWELI: (Singing) Asked my daughter how it looks? She fixed my hat so I can wear it cool because she's like that's what we wear in school. Then she asked me, daddy, you know any superstar? I looked at her and said stop being silly. That's what you two are. I say it now and I've said it before. And you could trust me on this 'cause I've been through it y'all. Follow your heart and you can do it all.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, yeah, your kids, this is about your kids.</s>Mr. KWELI: Uh-huh.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It features your kids.</s>Mr. KWELI: Uh-huh.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How does it feel to involve the next generation?</s>Mr. KWELI: It feels good. I don't want to limit my daughter and my son to what I do for a living. They enjoy hip-hop music. My son writes lyrics and he...</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How old is he?</s>Mr. KWELI: He's 11. He's always asking me when he can get in the studio. And he, you know, he'll write these rhymes. So I said, all right, we'll go in the studio and play that rhyme.</s>Mr. AMANI FELA GREENE (Talib Kweli's Son): (Singing) Freestyler...</s>Mr. AMANI FELA GREENE (Talib Kweli's Son): Mr. A. GREENE and Ms. DIYANI ESHE GREENE (Talib Kweli's Children): (Singing) For me, myself and I, our rhyme is on the paper 'til they get sky-high...</s>Mr. KWELI: Then his sister, she followed whatever he does. So she came in there. She'll kick the rhyme - she already knows all his rhymes by heart. So they end up doing it together.</s>Mr. KWELI: Mr. GREENE and Ms. GREENE: (Singing) Cares Talib Kweli. Now, I'm the best superstar on BET.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How would you describe your music? Do you have a description of what you call your music? Conscious...</s>Mr. KWELI: I stay away from the titles of conscious, just like a gangster rapper should stay away from the title of gangster. There's consciousness in my music, and my music comes from a conscious place. And when people say that, I certainly take it as a compliment. But my job, in terms of selling my music, is to be universal and to try to get it to everybody. So I don't like that discussion because it separates and it's destructive to hip-hop, I think.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Chuck D of Public Enemy once said that hip-hop was on CNN of black America. And you recently in a track off your new album called "Say Something," brought Barack Obama into play.</s>Mr. KWELI: (Singing) Blacksmith Music, if you don't pay how much(ph). I'm going to show you how we break an artist. That's a threat. I'm not making a promise. Speak to the people like Barack Obama. They're worship like a Black Madonna. Come on.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what do you think about the whole idea that there's this form of communication through hip-hop about politics? Is it important to you?</s>Mr. KWELI: My personal take on politics is I deal with social situations and cultural situations in my music and in my life. I have said on record many times that I haven't voted. I'm not the type of person who says, I'm never going to vote. I think it's clear to me that our system has failed us. It's a shame because so many people fought and died for our right to vote. So it's an absolute shame that the system has failed us this greatly. But at the same time, because of the failure of system, it's impossible for a candidate that resonates with me to get to that level. And Barack Obama is the first person who's even come close.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It sounds like you're really saying that not voting for anyone is better than voting for someone that you see as the lesser of two evils or three evils or five evils.</s>Mr. KWELI: I definitely, without a doubt believe in that. And my mother will -she probably going to listen to this and be really mad at me because I said -because she disagrees with me. She believes in voting for the lesser of two evils. And I think that's a generational thing. I think that I am seeing the Internet and seeing technology take and seeing how the work I do through music directly affects people's lives better than any politician I've ever met. And so my life experience was not standing on the frontlines fighting for the right to vote. My life experience is like, okay, we got the right to vote, but because people's minds aren't at a place where they know what they're voting for - no one knows this issue and who they're voting for.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let me go also to your, I guess, financial politics. In 2006, you played with the Roots on the Jazz Philosophy Tour. The tour was sponsored by Kool cigarettes. Do you ever regret doing that? Or was it a mixed message for you about what you believe in?</s>Mr. KWELI: I've had my issues with them. And I have fans who certainly hit me up on MySpace and check me on stuff like that. I mean, I tell you what the facts of the matter is from my prospective. I don't get paid to sell music. I've never had a platinum album. So I'm not living over record sales. I've performed in nightclubs that have huge sponsorship deals with liquor companies. On stage they're pouring drinks. People are smoking cigarettes. So to me it's hypocritical to not take that check and say - if that's the case, then I don't need to perform in no more nightclubs anymore. I'm not going to do a Kool ad where I'm smoking a cigarette. I'm not going to work for their company. But if they're paying me to do what I do, then, yeah, I have no problem. I got over that a long time ago.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, let's take a listen to another of your songs called "Eat to Live."</s>Mr. KWELI: (Singing) My rhymes got nutritional value. Forget on how I live, it's critical when the conditions allow you. (Unintelligible) you and trust the critiques who doubt you. Try to write shit about you, but we can't make a living without you. Go hungry. You got to watch what the media feeds you, and don't be (unintelligible) animal either neither. It's harder than it sounds.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So when you think about the song "Eat to Live," in some ways, it's much more idealistic than what you were just talking about - the art, the commerce and how they blend. How do you combine your idealistic side with this other side of you, which, as you're explaining is like, look, I got to eat to live on a very different level?</s>Mr. KWELI: Right, right, definitely. Your mind state when you're an artist recording in a studio, for me, it has to be different and my mind state as a CEO trying to pull my record out and compete in a marketplace. So when I'm in the studio, I'm strictly thinking about the beats, the rhymes and the song. The decision I make once the songs are created, and there's a barcode put on the package, and I'm out there in the street selling it, those decisions as a businessman are different than the creative decisions you make.</s>Mr. KWELI: I did - in store, where, K came out to me and said, yo, if you feel this way, why don't you just exist outside of the system? And my answer to him was I do. I put our mixed tapes. I do shows. I put our album "Liberation with Madlib." I put them on the Internet for free. I called it "Liberation." What else - how much more out of the system can I exist? He's like, well, you should only do that. You shouldn't have a deal with Warner Brothers. You shouldn't do these other things. I'm like, okay, that sounds good. But you wouldn't be standing in the line for me to sign your CD if I didn't do these things.</s>Mr. KWELI: I have my foot in both worlds, and I do believe in that. I believe that in order for a revolution to happen, it has to happen on every level. Music doesn't just coincide with business. That's why they don't get along. That's why kids steal artist music and don't feel guilty about it. I have my music stolen so many different times, but what you have to do is you have to harness it. And if you can't beat them, join them, but not in the defeated sense. In terms of just acknowledging the trends and be affluent(ph) where how you're doing business.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Talib, thanks so much.</s>Mr. KWELI: Thank you, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Talib Kweli's new album "Eardrum" drops today. He sat down with me here in our NPR West studios. For extended audio of my interview with Talib Kweli, check out our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org.

Miners across Appalachia are dying of black lung. Now they're coming to terms with decades of dedication to a job that would drastically change their lives and that of their families.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: NPR and the PBS show "Frontline" have been investigating a resurgence of advanced black lung among coal miners across Appalachia. We found that, despite mounting evidence and a stream of dire warnings, federal regulators and mining companies failed to protect workers.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Now we're going to hear about this devastating disease from the miners themselves. It has drastically changed their lives, their communities and their families. They told their stories to NPR's Howard Berkes and Ohio Valley ReSource reporter Benny Becker. We start in Leatherwood, Ky., which is where Howard met miner Greg Kelly.</s>HOWARD BERKES, BYLINE: Greg, hey. I'm Howard Berkes from National Public Radio. Great to meet you.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Uh-huh.</s>HOWARD BERKES, BYLINE: Do you want to go in and talk?</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: I'm Greg Kelly. I'm in Leatherwood, Ky. Well, I dropped out of high school. I worked in a grocery store. And I left the grocery store and went to coal mining. I felt like coal mining was my way of living.</s>CHARLES SHORTRIDGE: It was something that was in our blood that we loved to do. My name is Charles Shortridge, and I live in Meadowview, Va. And I've worked 28 years in the coal industry. We loved working in a coal mine since that's all we knew, was hard work. And that's how we provided for our families.</s>PAUL KINDER: I love coal mining. If I was able today, I'd be working in the mines. My name is Paul Kinder, and I live in a little town called Honaker, Va. My full career was underground. And I run a roof bolter some and a continuous miner, and I was a foreman. And, you know, I just loved it.</s>PAUL KINDER: I remember when I was a little boy, I'd go - my daddy sometimes would take me to the mines where he worked at. And, man, I loved the smell of that. It's just a different smell. I'd like to go smell one today. It was a good job and a good way to get to work.</s>JOHN GIBSON: My name's John Gibson. I'm from Appalachia, Va., and I'm 56.</s>HAROLD DOTSON: Harold Dotson, live in Phelps, Ky.</s>JACKIE YATES: My name is Jackie Yates.</s>NOAH K COUNTS: My name is Noah K. Counts. I live in Clintwood, Va.</s>RODNEY SEXTON: My name is Rodney Sexton. Coal mines was good to me, but God's been even better. That's the way I look at it, you know? The one thing I didn't want was black lung, but I got it anyway (laughter).</s>HOWARD BERKES, BYLINE: What's it like now with the disease for you?</s>BILL CANTRELL: Oh, it's terrible. Bill Cantrell, I'm from Pinsonfork, Ky. I mean, it's unexplainable. It's just - I don't know how to explain it (laughter).</s>CHARLES SHORTRIDGE: It's a horrible-looking thing. You got nodules that's on your lungs that's caused from coal dust, rock dust.</s>JACKIE YATES: You know, it's just, like, turned your lungs to concrete.</s>NOAH K COUNTS: You just stop breathing. And you just wake up, and there you are. You're awake.</s>JACK HORNE: I'm Jack Horne, and I'm from Kimper, Ky. The only thing I could liken it to is, like, if somebody ever holds you underwater till you thought you were going to drown. And when you come up, you're gasping for air. That's about what it's like, you know, when you have a lung attack.</s>EDWARD FULLER: And I hate it so bad I can't understand it at times. But it's affected my whole being.</s>HOWARD BERKES, BYLINE: Tell me your name and where you're from.</s>EDWARD FULLER: Edward Fuller from Steel (ph), Ky,</s>HOWARD BERKES, BYLINE: Looking back on your mining career, can you think about what it was that happened that might have caused your black lung?</s>EDWARD FULLER: Yeah. The coal dust, the dust.</s>JAMES L MUNCY: Yeah, I was in the dust all the time. James L. Muncy, M-U-N-C-Y. I'd come out of there as white as a sheet, as a ghost. Well, I'd come out of there, and the only thing you'd see of me was my eyes.</s>JACKIE YATES: You'd just watch it fall off like ash. It's thick.</s>ROY MULLINS: My name's Roy Mullins, Roy Edward Mullins, from Clintwood, Va. You can smell it. You can taste it.</s>CHARLES SHORTRIDGE: And when you come outside - you get a drink of water, or a Coke or whatever - you know, you hark (ph) it up and spit it up, you're spitting up goops of coal dust. And that is embedded into your system.</s>JAMES HAYES: That's just the way it is, really, I think. My name's James Hayes, and I'm from Pike County in Pinsonfork, Ky. You know, I mean, it's a dusty job. It's just dusty in the coal mines regardless. And if you stay long enough, you're more likely going to get black lung.</s>JIMMY WAMPLER: I blame the whole mining industry, you know? The companies, them all. I'm Jimmy Wampler, and I worked for little mines. I worked big mines.</s>JACKIE YATES: You got people out there that runs mines that all they want is coal. They don't care about violations. They don't care about nothing else. They just want coal.</s>JAMES L MUNCY: Coal - get the coal. Get the coal.</s>HAROLD DOTSON: They don't care if you live or die, is the truth of it.</s>JOHN GIBSON: The name of the game was run coal (laughter).</s>DANNY THORNSBERRY: My name's Danny Thornsberry. And I was a bolter man, scoop man, drill man - done it all. And then I ended up being a foreman. There was just a lot of laws that was - couldn't really do and mine coal profitably.</s>ROY SPARKS: Roy Sparks. I'm from Rockhouse, Ky. Yeah, the companies has got so - they're so slick. I mean - you know.</s>JIMMY WAMPLER: Fudging everything.</s>NOAH K COUNTS: It's a hide-and-seek for real. They try to act like they're complying about the laws. Even the inspectors know they're not.</s>EDWARD FULLER: And you had to do what they said. If you didn't, your hide.</s>HAROLD DOTSON: You kept your mouth shut. If you didn't, they'd fire you. So I just kept my mouth shut and went on. But I paid for it in the long run. Sure have. And I'm sure every other miner has too.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Just almost every guy that I know in our church was a coal miner. My pastor, he had black lung. Bill has black lung. Mike had black lung.</s>ROY SPARKS: My father-in-law...</s>RODNEY SEXTON: I got a older brother who's got black lung.</s>ROY SPARKS: ...My brothers, my uncles...</s>BILL CANTRELL: My dad's got black lung.</s>ROY SPARKS: ...Just the whole - you know? Everybody around me, the whole neighborhood.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And I think Papa does, and me.</s>RODNEY SEXTON: Since 2011, I have lost seven friends.</s>ROY MULLINS: And knowing that that's coming to you, it's pretty hard to take.</s>DANNY THORNSBERRY: I tried to help my son out of it. I tried to get him to go to school. You know, when he got out of high school, I said, you know, look, you're going to go to school, or you're going to get you a job. And he said, I want to stay here. And he said, I want to go into work in the mines. And so he did.</s>JACKIE YATES: I say, you'll be 30 years old with black lung. You don't want this. No, Dad, I want to work in the mines. I want to be like you. And guess where he's at? He's working in the mines.</s>JIMMY WAMPLER: The day you pick that dinner bucket up and go in the mines, that's the day you sign your death warrant. That's plain simple.</s>CHARLES SHORTRIDGE: I go out, and I just sit down and have a little cry. You know, that's all you do because it's black lung. It's a death sentence. But, you know, what's - you just got to take it one day at a time and hope for the best. Hope and pray that the good Lord has blessed us to have another day.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The voices of 17 coal miners in Appalachia. All of them have advanced black lung. NPR's Cat Schuknecht produced this story as part of an investigation by NPR in the PBS series "Frontline" about the failure of U.S. regulators to stop the worst outbreak of black lung in decades. The full documentary of our investigation, "Coal's Deadly Dust," airs tonight on "Frontline." You can see it on your local PBS station.

NPR's Audie Cornish talks with Republican strategist David Winston about President Trump's strategy for using a partial government shutdown to fulfill his election promise to build a border wall.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Late this afternoon, fragile signs of progress toward ending the partial government shutdown. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer have been talking this afternoon. President Trump has said if they can come to an agreement to reopen the government, he might support it. Nevertheless, it's been 34 days of government workers going without pay, 34 days of a shutdown President Trump once said he was prepared to own politically.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Deal or no deal, how could the shutdown affect the president going forward? Well, to answer that question, I'm joined by David Winston. He's a Republican strategist. He worked for former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich. Welcome to the program.</s>DAVID WINSTON: Good evening. Thanks for having me.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So far, it appears the president's approval ratings have not fared well. Multiple polls show he's being blamed by a majority of people. Can you parse those numbers for us?</s>DAVID WINSTON: I'll try. There are two pieces. One, his job approval is about where it's been for a long time, which, granted, it has not been very good, but it's not like it's moved a lot. Having said that, the blame - because to some degree, he said that in terms of when he initially had that conversation with both Schumer and Speaker Pelosi that he, you know, he would take the blame. Well, it's been assigned to him. So having said that, that's in place.</s>DAVID WINSTON: But the real challenge here moving forward is - and the public is not happy about this shutdown. The real challenge here is the - what's the resolution? What's the solution? And what the electorate is looking at is who is going to solve that. And that's why today's initial movement is at least going to be seen as somewhat of at least an attempt to move that forward.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Now, why do you think that's the case? When we think back to some of the other offers and ideas that have come to the forefront, you saw people in the president's base, especially some activist commentators, who complained that he was caving - right? - or complained about his move to compromise.</s>DAVID WINSTON: Well, I - look. I mean, I think, clearly, he believes - and this is where you've got sort of the conflict of two perceived mandates, right? President Trump believes he got a mandate in 2016, and the wall was a part of that. And he feels that he's responsible for delivering on that. Speaker Pelosi has the inverse response to that in terms of what happened in 2018, her sense of that, given the sense - given the focus on the caravan and immigration is that she has the opposite view.</s>DAVID WINSTON: And so it's sort of you have the sort of irresistible force versus the immovable object sort of at play here. And really where the country is at is just, you know, solve this. Get the government back open. Let's actually work through immigration, but let's move things forward. Which is, again, why what I think you see Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer doing is at least if we're having votes, there is a discussion occurring.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: But if you have a president who's very much thinking about his base, what have you learned in the numbers about where they are in terms of the wall? I mean, so far, what we've been seeing are numbers that say they want the wall and they're willing to let him fight for it.</s>DAVID WINSTON: Oh, absolutely.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So that doesn't give him much room, right?</s>DAVID WINSTON: No, it doesn't give him much room. I mean, absolutely, when you take a look at the Republican base, they want a wall. And, by the way, I would say in terms of Speaker Pelosi, her base absolutely doesn't want a wall. But this gets to the sort of dynamic of the electorate that sometimes people forget it's independents who decide who has a majority coalition.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Are there enough of them left?</s>DAVID WINSTON: Oh, yeah. No, no. They decided the last election. Bear with me. When Republicans won the majority back in 2010 - and this is according to exit polls - we won independents by 19. In this election, we lost them by 12. They decided who holds the majority. As they are, they're sort of the political center. And so the challenge here when you actually ask independents who do they think should be solving this problem, 51 percent say both. Right? And so the challenge of both parties is, how are they going to address the independents' concern because that's how you have a majority coalition.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: A few seconds left. What do you think this means for future White House priorities?</s>DAVID WINSTON: I sort of - one at a time, I guess, is sort of my response to that. Let's get through this. I mean, I would suggest that one of the challenges here is, look, there have been some economic progress made, but you've got to build on it because there are too many people still perceiving themselves and are concerned about living paycheck to paycheck. And how do we help them break out of that cycle?</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: David Winston, Republican strategist, president of The Winston Group. Thank you for speaking with us.</s>DAVID WINSTON: Glad to be on. Thanks for having me.

On Wednesday, unions representing airline pilots, air-traffic controllers and flight attendants said there would be serious safety concerns if the partial government shutdown continues.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So I am ticketed to fly next week - a couple of flights, which means I read with some unease the warning sounded today by air traffic controllers and airline pilots and flight attendants and others in the nation's aviation industry. What they are warning is that as this shutdown drags on, it could soon compromise the safety and security of air travelers. Well, we asked NPR's David Schaper to check it out.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: Few industries are as reliant on the federal government as aviation. Pilots need federal air traffic controllers to keep planes a safe distance from one another. Airlines need government safety inspectors to certify planes. The feds license pilots and certify training, and federal transportation security officers screen passengers and their luggage at airports. And the list goes on. But after 34 days of many of those safety-critical employees working without pay and others not working at all, those who fly the planes are not happy about it.</s>SARA NELSON: We are less safe today.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: Sara Nelson is president of the Association of Flight Attendants.</s>SARA NELSON: We understand that the critical networks - of layers of safety and security are not in place because we have people furloughed who fill those roles.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: Nelson spoke at a news conference at Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C., today along with pilots, air traffic controllers, aviation safety specialists and others. Three major U.S. airlines are also warning of the shutdown's financial toll. Southwest says it cannot launch a new service to Hawaii as planned because government approval of the route is on hold. JetBlue warns that the aviation system is near a tipping point, adding that the longer the shutdown goes on, the longer it will take for the air travel infrastructure to rebound. And American Airlines says it is affecting bookings and revenue.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: The airlines worry about longer lines and wait times for passengers to get through security as TSA officers increasingly are calling supervisors reporting that they are unable to work their shifts because of the financial strain. One airport in particular where wait times have soared in recent days is Baltimore's, where at a news conference today Maryland Governor Larry Hogan, a Republican, sharply criticized President Trump for the shutdown.</s>LARRY HOGAN: Of course we're concerned about safety. The whole issue is about border security. And yet, we're going to leave our airports and our coasts, you know, with no security. It makes no sense.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: Meanwhile, the toll is mounting on those security officers, aviation safety specialists and air traffic controllers who are working without pay.</s>LARRY MCCRAY: People are starting to become angry.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: Larry McCray is a traffic system specialist for the FAA and among those showing the strain of working more than a month without getting a paycheck.</s>LARRY MCCRAY: People are becoming angry on a daily basis - becoming more and more difficult to maintain.</s>ERIN BOWEN: The longer this continues - the longer you have folks who are mandatory employees coming in but not receiving a paycheck to do the job you're asking them to do, the more stress they're under.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: That's Dr. Erin Bowen, an expert in aviation psychology at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. And she says research shows that stress makes it difficult for people to do their jobs well.</s>ERIN BOWEN: And when your job is to do something like separate aircraft safely in the sky over a crowded city, those are not the folks you want who are distracted by what is really a preventable stressor.</s>DAVID SCHAPER, BYLINE: Other experts agree, saying the air travel system today is still as safe as it has ever been, but the government shutdown could bring a tipping point soon where safety and security could be compromised. David Schaper, NPR News.

Venezuelans protested the authoritarian government of Nicolás Maduro on Wednesday. Maduro has presided over the nation's collapse and millions of people have fled the crisis.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: It's been a day of high political drama in Venezuela. Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to demand that President Nicolas Maduro resign. Opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself interim president. He took an oath of office in front of the crowds in the capital, Caracas.</s>JUAN GUAIDO: (Speaking Spanish).</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Shortly after that, the Trump administration recognized Guaido as the transitional president. Maduro responded by cutting off diplomatic ties with Washington and announced he's kicking out U.S. diplomats. NPR's Philip Reeves joins us now from Venezuela's capital. And, Phil, this sounds like an extraordinary day. Can you tell us, what's the latest update?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, we have a major political crisis here, and it's not at all clear how it will end. This started out as a day of nationwide mass protests in Venezuela. These protests were called by the opposition who control the Congress - the National Assembly as it's called here. The National Assembly no longer recognizes Maduro as president, saying his election for second term, which has just started, was a fraud. And these protests were to scale up the pressure on Maduro to go.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Then the day took an extraordinary twist when, in front of that huge crowd as you heard of supporters in Caracas, Juan Guaido, the head of the National Assembly, declared himself interim president, saying he'll oversee the nation until new and fair elections can be held. The U.S., Canada and several Latin American nations immediately formally recognized him. And that's what's created this extraordinary and highly volatile situation with Maduro defiantly holding onto power while his chief opponent, Guaido, saying he's the president and many nations, including the most powerful nation on the block, the U.S., agreeing with him.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: We mentioned the expulsion of U.S. diplomats. Has there been any other reaction from Maduro?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, Maduro went on TV in front of his presidential palace where there was a big rally of his supporters today and denounced this as an attempted coup by the opposition and the United States. He said, as you mentioned, he's - that he's severing diplomatic ties with the U.S. such as they are. And he announced that he's kicking out U.S. diplomatic personnel, giving them 72 hours to leave. But meanwhile, there are reports that Guaido is encouraging the diplomatic community here to disobey Maduro's orders. So we really are in uncharted waters.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: We don't know whether Maduro will now move against Guaido. The U.S. is making it clear that there could be a very strong response from them if he does so. The White House is saying no options are being ruled out. Maduro is being publicly defiant. But I think his future might depend now on whether he can maintain the support of the military.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: To go back to Guaido for a moment, what did he have to say to the crowds in his speech?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: Well, it was really an extraordinary moment. I mean, he appeared before this huge crowd of people. He said that he would assume the powers of the presidency to secure an end to what he called the usurpation, which is the word they used for Maduro. And when he did that, there was a huge cheer.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: What are protesters saying in the streets about all of this?</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: I think they are embracing this moment, those that opposed Maduro. They're happy now to speak out, and when they do, they say they're desperate for change. I mean, listen, for instance, to one of the crowd, Carlos Gonzales, who's a teacher.</s>CARLOS GONZALES: This government - they destroy our democracy, and I want our democracy back. And our rights to all Venezuelan citizens, I want our rights back. It's what I want.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: I asked Gonzales about what he thought of the role being played here by the U.S. in pushing for Maduro and recognizing his opponent, the president of the National Assembly. And Gonzales was very happy about that. He said people have been waiting for the world outside to come to their aid, and he was pleased about it.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's NPR's Philip Reeves. Philip, thank you.</s>PHILIP REEVES, BYLINE: You're welcome.

The Senate is preparing to vote on two proposals to reopen the government, but neither are expected to pass. NPR's Audie Cornish talks with Sen. Mike Rounds, R-S.D., about how he sees the shutdown ending.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: It is Day 33 of the government shutdown, and it has been just about that long since the Senate has tried to pass a new spending bill. That changes tomorrow. That is when each party, in an effort to end the shutdown, will bring its own bill to the Senate floor.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The Republican bill, in exchange for money for the president's border wall, offers protections for the so-called DREAMers but with a catch. It also makes it harder for children from Central American countries to seek asylum in the U.S. The Democrats' bill is a spending bill that would fund the government through February 8. It doesn't provide any new money for the wall. Neither is expected to pass.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: South Dakota Republican Mike Rounds will be there to cast his vote. He joins me in the studio. Thanks for coming in.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you this afternoon.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: I'm going to get to this topic in a moment, but I do want to address something that has moved quickly this afternoon, and that's about the State of the Union. After dueling letters between the president and Speaker Pelosi, the State of the Union is effectively canceled. And now the president says he's going to be giving a speech at an alternate event, essentially. Should he be giving that address now with the government shutdown?</s>MIKE ROUNDS: It's unfortunate that it comes this far. These two leaders need to find a way to work together. The president needs to find a way to break through, but Speaker Pelosi has a responsibility here as well. Simply denying the president the opportunity to have the State of the Union is probably not going to help us find common ground on other more pressing issues.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: The president has a number of different options in which he can deliver a State of the Union. But this has been the traditional one, and it's the one that many ways is an example to the rest of the world of how even if we have real disagreements, we still come together; we listen to the president's message, and then lawmakers have the opportunity to express their approval or disapproval but not by throwing things at one another but by simply expressing in that chamber their thoughts about what the president is saying. This is probably a mistake not to have a way to continue it in front of the entire world.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: I want to talk about the two bills that will be before you this week. Democrats are looking at the proposal from Senate Leader McConnell and saying it has a poison pill in these restrictions on people applying for asylum.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: I guess we had never looked at it that way before, and it's really the first time that I've heard it approached that way. What we really thought we were trying to do on this was to provide at least an avenue in which those individuals knew that there was a continuation of being able to seek asylum. But more than that, it was a first step on behalf of the president to come off of what had been his position of simply saying, I want you to fund my border wall; I want you to fund this thing right now.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: And I give Leader McConnell a lot of credit for actually getting the president to come off and make the first move in this negotiation - doesn't mean it's perfect, but it was a step forward. The expectation was that the speaker would then respond with an appropriate message coming off of her hard position of, you get nothing. So far, that hasn't occurred. It's back to...</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Open the government. Debate afterwards.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: Right. And...</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: To that point, are any Republicans going to cross the aisle to vote for that Democratic proposal to say, look; let's just, like, get the government open and then have a real discussion?</s>MIKE ROUNDS: I don't know. Each of them will look at this and say, what will my constituents think is the best approach on this? Some will say, no, look; we're going to have to stand firm so that everybody understands that it's going to be a united effort. It's going to be one that both the president and Speaker Pelosi both say, I can live with this new, third alternative. And if they - you know, once again, if Democrats surprise us and step forward and agree to what the president is saying in order to move it over to the House, that would be a positive thing. But I don't think that you're going to see that.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: I don't believe that Republicans are going to step forward and say, move it to the House because they know that the president would veto it. And then you start all over again, only you're several more days, if not a week, down the line yet. It would be good to break through and to actually have a group established to find some common ground if at all possible. Leader McConnell was right. It takes both the speaker and the president to agree to move forward. And at this point, it doesn't look like we're coming anywhere close to that.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: If you don't mind me saying this, you look exhausted and exasperated. And do you feel like your leaders have let you down?</s>MIKE ROUNDS: I'm frustrated just like I think the vast majority of members in the House and the Senate are. We came to Washington to fix things. But right now we have the president, who has taken a first step. We really hope Speaker Pelosi will take even a small step forward to break the original impasse. Once we get to the point where we can get a small committee working, then I think things will start to move quickly.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota. Thank you for coming in and speaking with ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.</s>MIKE ROUNDS: Thank you.

In 2010, Panera launched an experiment at a few of their cafes. They told customers: Pay what you can afford. NPR's Planet Money looks at how that experiment turned out.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In 2010, Panera started opening nonprofit cafes called Panera Cares. They told customers, pay what you can afford. Sarah Gonzalez with our Planet Money podcast looks at how that experiment turned out.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: The last Panera Cares cafe looks pretty much like any Panera with a few little differences, like there's this wall of day-old bread when you walk in.</s>BARRY COMBS: This bread wall's for anybody else that's in need. We have a bin here, and you can add what you can. Grab a loaf of bread. Bring it to the cashiers, and we slice it for you.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Barry Combs is the manager of the Boston cafe.</s>BARRY COMBS: Everything is suggested amounts.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Here, you pay whatever you want. Instead of cash registers, there are clear donation bins.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Plexiglas, plastic.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: And all the prices on the menu are just suggested prices.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: OK, I'm going to do the broccoli cheddar soup.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It's up to you to just place your value in the bin, however much you wish to donate.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: I got a 20, so I'll do that.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Thanks so much. We really appreciate that.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: The former CEO of Panera Ron Shaich started opening pay-what-you-want cafes hoping that enough wealthier customers would pay more than the suggested price so the needy could eat for less.</s>RON SHAICH: I fundamentally believed that there were enough good people in the world, that they would do the right thing.</s>GIANA ECKHARDT: My first impression of the idea was, this will never work.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Giana Eckhardt is a professor of marketing at Royal Holloway, University of London who was very skeptical of this experiment. She studies consumer behavior and says it went against everything she knew about how consumers behave. She says how people feel about a social issue like hunger doesn't really affect individual purchases made at a checkout counter. It depends more, she says, on things like how much cash you happen to have in your pocket when you walk in. Eckhardt observed the cafes for years. They ended up attracting a lot of homeless people.</s>GIANA ECKHARDT: And so you would see all of these shopping carts around, which also smelled in addition to the people themselves. And so the managers had to come up with rules about the size of bags that you could bring in.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Pretty early on, Cares cafes started telling customers that if they didn't have enough money to pay, they could volunteer for an hour in exchange for a meal, clean under the counters. But in the end, they were not attracting enough generous customers for Panera to break even.</s>GIANA ECKHARDT: What ended up happening is the people who were not food insecure did not want to eat lunch with people who were food insecure.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Almost nine years into the experiment, every Panera Cares cafe closed except for the one in Boston. But Ron Shaich still considers the experiment a success.</s>RON SHAICH: You've served millions of people over many, many years.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: The one remaining pay-what-you-want Cares cafe is still losing money. The manager says they cover about 85 percent of their cost. Panera makes up the rest. But Eckhardt says there are more successful pay-what-you-want models, like the ones that make people feel like they're getting a gift.</s>GIANA ECKHARDT: So you think, oh, I've received a gift from someone that I don't even know, and this I-should-repay-that-gift is a very strong instinct inside people, I think.</s>SARAH GONZALEZ, BYLINE: Another thing that would work better - no prices. If you see even a suggested price, Eckhardt says that's the amount you think you should pay. With no price, people actually give more. Sarah Gonzalez, NPR News.

Two journalists imprisoned in Nicaragua will hear the evidence against them in court Friday. The government says they fomented hate while reporting on President Daniel Ortega's crackdown on freedoms.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In Nicaragua, two prominent journalists who ran a popular cable news outlet are facing charges of terrorism. The government accuses them of stirring up anti-government anger. As NPR's Carrie Kahn reports, their case is the latest attack on the press in Nicaragua since a crackdown by President Daniel Ortega began nearly a year ago.</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: The news program on cable outlet 100 Percent Noticias has long been a daily staple for Nicaraguans.</s>UNIDENTIFIED NEWSCASTER: (Speaking Spanish).</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: That's until December 21. All of a sudden, the nightly news roundtable is abruptly interrupted. Seconds later, viewers hear news director Lucia Pineda's breathless pleas.</s>LUCIA PINEDA: (Speaking Spanish).</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: "This just in. The latest news. There are riot police here at the station trying to enter," she says. In the background, you can hear loud crashes. Then the cable outlet's signal is cut completely. Pineda, the station's owners, Miguel Mora and his wife, Veronica Chavez, were hauled off to prison. More than 550 people have been jailed since protests broke out last April against President Daniel Ortega and his wife, now the country's vice president. More than 300 people have been killed. Mora and Pineda remain in Nicaragua's infamous Chipote prison, charged with fomenting hate, spreading fake news and terrorism, charges that face a possible 20-year prison sentence. Chavez was released.</s>VERONICA CHAVEZ: (Speaking Spanish).</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: "The charges against my husband are illogical. They have no legal basis. We are reporters. We show what is going on around us. If that's inciting hate then every reporter in the world is guilty of that," says Chavez. Ortega has shut down other media outlets and five nongovernmental groups. I spoke with Chavez in the office of the only human rights organization left operating in Nicaragua. On the street below were two unmarked vehicles. They followed Chavez here, as they do everywhere she goes. Attorney Julio Ariel Montenegro represents the journalists, as well as more than 75 other defendants facing similar anti-state charges.</s>JULIO ARIEL MONTENEGRO: (Speaking Spanish).</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: Montenegro, who spent most of his legal career as a state prosecutor, says unfortunately, there is no longer an independent judicial system in Nicaragua. He says, instead, defendants face an orchestrated collaboration by prosecutors, police and judges. Natalie Southwick of the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists says aggression against Nicaragua's tiny independent media has intensified rapidly.</s>NATALIE SOUTHWICK: It's just a sign of how much conditions there have deteriorated and how much cause for concern. These reporters have for their safety.</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: Fifty journalists have fled to Costa Rica. Nicaragua's most prominent journalist, Carlos Fernando Chamorro, announced this week he, too, had joined them. President Ortega and his wife have characterized independent media workers and civic leaders as coup plotters. They rejected a permit for a planned march today, accusing the coalition of business leaders who had made the requests of also participating in attempts to overthrow the government. Veronica Chavez says it may appear that Ortega has quashed freedom of expression in Nicaragua.</s>VERONICA CHAVEZ: (Speaking Spanish).</s>CARRIE KAHN, BYLINE: "But with our case, they overplayed their hand this time." She says both of the jailed journalists have vowed to stay strong. Carrie Kahn, NPR News, Managua, Nicaragua.

Jonas Mekas survived a Nazi labor camp and landed in New York City in 1949. He picked up a 16mm camera and began filming the new world around him. Mekas died Wednesday at 96.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Some called him the godfather of underground film, but Jonas Mekas was a champion of all kinds of moviemaking. For nearly seven decades, Mekas was an anchor of the film community in New York City. He was an author, a critic, a film distributor and a movie maker whose influence extended far beyond his adopted home. Jonas Mekas has died yesterday at the age of 96. Ben Shapiro has this appreciation.</s>BEN SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Jonas Mekas came to New York City in 1949 from his native Lithuania after surviving a Nazi work camp. He bought a movie camera and began filming his surroundings right away, launching a lifelong passion for cinema, as he told me in 2006.</s>JONAS MEKAS: I'm obsessed. I'm possessed. I mean, once you are in cinema, you cannot stop.</s>BEN SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Mekas filmed life as he encountered it - his friends serving dinner, a pretty woman in the park, his lonely reflection behind the counter of a diner. He called them diary films, and he made hundreds of them, building small moments into movies lasting anywhere from a few minutes to over five hours.</s>JONAS MEKAS: My films consist of, like, 30 seconds, one minute - little films like little poems, like sketches.</s>BEN SHAPIRO, BYLINE: The camera work is often shaky. Images linger or speed by in a flurry. The soundtracks could be music or his own voice reflecting on his experience, as during his visit to Vienna in 1972.</s>JONAS MEKAS: (As himself) I begin to believe again in the indestructibility of the human spirit.</s>BEN SHAPIRO, BYLINE: In 2006, film critic Amy Taubin said that Mekas' films evoke a sense of time gone by.</s>AMY TAUBIN: It's more like a memory of an image than, you know, a big 35-millimeter image that has immense detail. The ghostliness of the image was something that he was intentionally after.</s>BEN SHAPIRO, BYLINE: In the 1960s, Mekas was at the center of the New York avant garde art scene. His friends included Andy Warhol. And a decade later, Mekas helped to preserve Warhol's early films. He and his friends turned an old courthouse in Manhattan into Anthology Film Archives, today one of the largest collections of avant garde and underground films in the world. And he kept making his own, adopting digital video when he was in his 80s.</s>JONAS MEKAS: From beginning with the Big Bang, life is always moving ahead. We should not be so attached to the past. Everything keeps changing, and it's beautiful that it's like that.</s>BEN SHAPIRO, BYLINE: Jonas Mekas posted his most recent film to his website last August. It's his portrait of his visit to The Lamb pub, a famous literary haunt in London. For NPR News, this is Ben Shapiro in New York.

A massive new report contains details of what went right and wrong for the U.S. in the Iraq War. NPR's Mary Louise Kelly speaks with Col. Frank Sobchak, one of the co-editors of the report.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: To lessons now from the Iraq War, according to a long-awaited study of that war from the U.S. Army War College. It was commissioned by then-Army Chief of Staff General Ray Odierno six years ago back in 2013. And here's how the Army Times summed up the findings in a headline, "Army's Long-Awaited Iraq War Study Finds Iran Was The Only Winner In A Conflict That Holds Many Lessons For Future Wars."</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: To talk about some of those lessons, we are joined now by Colonel Frank Sobchak, now retired. He's one of two co-editors of the study, and he joins me now. Colonel, welcome.</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you, Mary Louise.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Talk to me about that headline, that Iran was the, quote, "only "winner" in the Iraq War. Do you agree?</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: Yes, I do. I think that one of the reasons why in Operation Desert Storm the decision was made not to go all the way to Baghdad was just the geopolitical balance of having Iraq as a bulwark or counterweight to Iran.</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: Now with Iraq severely weakened and with elements of its political class as supporters of Iran, Iran is clearly in a much stronger situation just strategically. And I think we see that playing out through its expansionism and kind of adventurism occurring in Syria, Yemen and other locations.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Your report also documents a U.S. failure to adequately train Iraqi forces. It documents some of what happened after the U.S. pulled back in 2011. And of course, we then saw sectarian tensions deepen and the rise of ISIS. And it's very critical of some of the Army's most senior officers. What has the reaction been like?</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: You know, at the tactical level, at our training center - is we do after-action reviews after every single battle. And so, to a degree, this is an academic after-action review. It's - it's a assessment of what went right and what went wrong. And so while in some areas it can be perceived as being overly critical, from another perspective, it's the military reviewing itself to try to make sure that, if this ever happens again, that we are better prepared.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Let me ask about a potentially delicate matter you had to deal with. I mentioned General Odierno commissioned this report. He wrote the foreword for it. Back when he first arrived in Iraq, he was division commander.</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: Yeah.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: He was criticized as someone who maybe didn't get the whole hearts-and-minds things, the importance of winning the population over. Was that a challenge to navigate? The man who commissioned it, the man who wrote the forward to it was also somebody you had to investigate as you pored back over those years.</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: I don't think it was a large challenge because we were given so much freedom to study kind of what went right and what went wrong. And, I mean, you know, frankly, more went wrong than went right. And we've even given guidance, effectively, that if you have to kill sacred cows, kill some sacred cows because we need to learn from this. This matters.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: How directly does your report criticize him and other senior army officers?</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: I think that we were given a lot of latitude to present mistakes that occurred. And we all - I mean, I served in Iraq, as did every one of the other authors of the study. We all made mistakes, and we all have things that we can learn from.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: That's retired Colonel Frank Sobchak. He is one of the editors of an extensive new report from the U.S. Army War College on the war in Iraq.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Colonel Sobchak, thanks very much.</s>RET COLONEL FRANK SOBCHAK: Thank you.

The Trump administration is using a system that is meant to help migrant children to deport the kids and their families, according to several lawsuits filed around the country.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: There are now more than 10,000 migrant children who arrived in the country illegally being held in U.S. government custody. The system that cares for these children has come under intense scrutiny. Now a number of federal lawsuits allege the Trump administration is using that system to punish and deport the kids and their families. NPR's John Burnett joins me now from Austin. Hey, John.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Hi, Mary Louise.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So a number of federal lawsuits. What the number, and what exactly are they alleging?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: By my count, there are at least four federal lawsuits filed since last March, and many of them challenge the way the government confines these children. They allege the Trump administration is ignoring a federal mandate to release the immigrant kids to sponsors as soon as possible. The lawsuits claim the kids are being locked up for months when there are loving family members ready to take them into their homes. And, remember; these are mostly teenagers who trekked to the U.S. border from Central America. They say they're fleeing violent street gangs, and most of them are asking for asylum.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: I gather one of the issues in play here is that sponsors who maybe step forward and say they can take these kids, that they are in danger of deportation. Do the lawsuits get into that?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Exactly. In one lawsuit filed by the Southern Poverty Law Center, it alleges the administration has sort of weaponized an agency called the Office of Refugee Resettlement, or ORR. It's the entity in charge of caring for these underage migrants. The lawsuit says when family members step forward to take a migrant child into their household, which is what the law intends, deportation agents will arrest those sponsors if they're here illegally. Lawyers say so far 170 willing sponsors have been arrested and put into deportation proceedings. And it's had the effect of scaring other family members from coming forward, which means the kids end up staying longer in these controversial ORR shelters. Some have now been there since last summer.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And we'll watch and see how the Trump administration plays this in court. But what is their response to the central allegation, that a system that's supposed to be set up to care for children is being used to punish and deport them?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Well, Homeland Security says it will round up unlawful immigrants even if they happen to be sponsors stepping forward to claim a child migrant. There was actually an internal Homeland Security memo that was revealed last week, and it confirms that. The administration planned back in December 2017 to make an agreement between ORR and Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE. And it says right there in black and white the arrests of sponsors would result in a deterrent effect on human trafficking. Mary Bauer is deputy legal director for the Southern Poverty Law Center.</s>MARY BAUER: There is no doubt that ORR and ICE are working closely together to use children as bait to catch sponsors and put them into removal proceedings. We know that because they put it in writing and said that they're doing it.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Another really important point the lawsuit is that ORR is allegedly holding children until they can be deported on their 18th birthday. They actually put one of the plaintiffs on a call with reporters - Kayla Vazquez. She was trying to sponsor her 17-year-old Honduran cousin by marriage who was in one of these shelters. She says the social worker who works for ORR keeps changing the rules on her. She's worried the government wants to keep him confined until his 18th birthday when they can come in and arrest him.</s>KAYLA VAZQUEZ: I feel like they're playing a game. They're just keeping him there to have the family suffer, which is wrong because the ones that are suffering most are the children.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: What does the ORR, the Office of Refugee Resettlement, say in response to stories like that?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: The agency says it's reviewing the court filing and doesn't have any comment at this time. But I should say that in mid-December, a government official told me the children should be home with their parents. The government makes lousy parents. The agency then streamlined the way it screens the sponsors. And today, the number of kids in custody has dropped from just shy of 15,000 to under 11,000. So I think the agency's numbers indicate contrary to what the lawsuit is claiming that it's releasing more kids more quickly to sponsors than it has in the past.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: NPR's John Burnett reporting from Austin. Thank you, John.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: It's a pleasure, Mary Louise.

In 1963, Martin Luther King Jr. was jailed in Birmingham, Ala. He wrote "Letter from Birmingham Jail." James Earl Jones reads an excerpt of the letter at a 1988 event at New York's 92nd Street Y.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Had he not been assassinated in 1968, Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. would have celebrated his 90th birthday last week. Today, on the federal holiday dedicated to him and his legacy, we take a moment to do just that.</s>JAMES EARL JONES: (Reading) We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor. It must be demanded by the oppressed.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's actor James Earl Jones reading from King's "Letter From Birmingham Jail." King and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference launched the Birmingham campaign in 1963, a series of nonviolent protests and boycotts in that Alabama city meant to pressure businesses to desegregate and business owners to hire people of all races. On Good Friday, King and other black protesters were arrested and jailed for parading without a permit.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: While there, he was given a copy of an open letter about the protest. It was written by eight white Alabama clergymen. They said they recognize the, quote, "natural impatience of people who feel their hopes are slow in being realized." They also called the protest unwise and untimely and suggested local protesters abandon demonstrations and negotiate instead. King took that to be yet another way of saying wait. He was tired of hearing wait.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Here are selections from his response read by James Earl Jones. It contains words many found offensive then and many will find offensive now.</s>JAMES EARL JONES: (Reading) We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights. I guess it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say wait. But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen the hate-filled policemen curse, kick, brutalize and even kill your black brothers and sisters with impunity; when you see the vast majority of your 20 million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading white and colored; when your first name becomes nigger and your middle name becomes boy, however old you are, and your last name becomes John; and when your wife and mother are never given the respected title Mrs.; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly on tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next and plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of nobodiness, then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait.</s>JAMES EARL JONES: There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of injustice where they experience the blackness of corroding despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: James Earl Jones reading an excerpt of Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous "Letter From Birmingham Jail." It was recorded in New York City in 1988 at the 92nd Street Y.

Republicans are planning to bring President Trump's offer to end the shutdown up for a vote in the Senate this week. Democrats oppose it and will vote on their own package in the House.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Today in Washington, President Trump and Vice President Pence laid a wreath at the memorial for Martin Luther King Jr. The president also issued a proclamation urging all Americans to recommit themselves to the late civil rights leader's dream of equality and justice for all. Federal offices are closed today in honor of Dr. King.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: And of course many government offices were already closed for weeks because of a political standoff. The president is demanding that Congress approve money for his border wall. Congressional Democrats have been unwilling to do that. NPR's Scott Horsley joins us now with the latest on the shutdown. Welcome, Scott.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Audie.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So this week, the Senate is expected to take up a proposal that the president made over the weekend. It would provide wall funding in exchange for limited protection for certain classes of immigrants. Tell us more about it.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Yes, this proposal, which the president spelled out in an address on Saturday, what he billed as a major announcement, would offer a temporary reprieve from deportation to DACA recipients - that is the young people who were brought to the country as children - as well as several hundred thousand people from Central America and Haiti who have been living in the U.S. under what's called temporary protected status. Now, under Trump's plan, those folks would be allowed to remain in the country for three years.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And in exchange, the president's asking for the full $5.7 billion he's been seeking for his border wall. That would be enough to fund about 230 miles of border barrier. Now, even before the president spoke on Saturday, Democrats had rejected this proposal. But Republican Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma said on ABC's "This Week" Democrats really ought to give this a second look at least as an opening offer.</s>JAMES LANKFORD: The vote this week in the Senate is not to pass the bill. It is to open up and say, can we debate this? Can we amend it? Can we make changes? Let's find a way to be able to get the government open because there are elements in this that are clearly elements that have been supported by Democrats strongly in the past.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Now, Democrats point out that the president's proposal does not include, for example, a path to citizenship for DACA recipients, which is something they've supported in the past. What's more, they say this is just a three-year reprieve, and it only restores protection that was already in place until that the president decided to rescind DACA. So for Democrats, that's not good enough to justify spending on the president's border wall.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So what are Democrats doing?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Well, this week, Audie, the Democratic House is expected to vote on its own proposals to reopen shuttered parts of the government and provide some additional funding for border security but not for the president's border wall. The Democrats want to demonstrate that their opposition to the wall does not mean they are against border security in general even though that's something the president has tried to paint them as.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: The Democrats' basic position throughout this shutdown has been, we are not going to negotiate until the government is reopened. Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia was on "Meet The Press" this weekend. He said, step one should be recalling furloughed federal employees and making sure those who are already on the job don't miss another paycheck.</s>MARK WARNER: I don't think we give our federal employees enough benefit. Five weeks now without pay - they're still showing up to work. They're working overtime. How many of the folks in the studio would come to work this morning if they'd gone five weeks without pay?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: We are well into the fifth week of this shutdown, Audie. And if it's not fixed pretty soon, federal workers are set to miss their second consecutive payday this coming Friday.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Now, this is obviously causing considerable hardship for those workers who are affected - right? - and their families. Is there a sense yet of what it means for the broader economy?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: The longer it goes on, the deeper the impact. The chief White House economist has said it shaving about one-tenth of 1 percentage point off of economic growth for every week the shutdown continues. That means by the end of this week, we will have given up a full half percentage point of GDP. Some of that could be made up when federal workers get backpay, as they are promised.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: But some of that economic activity, Audie, is just gone for good. Certainly that's true for all of the non-government businesses that are losing money on the sidelines of this shutdown - you know, restaurants that cater to federal workers or to tourists visiting government museums, that sort of thing. What's more, this record-setting shutdown does not exactly inspire confidence that the federal government will be able to deal with any real challenge that might come from the outside as opposed to problems that the government is creating for itself.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In the meantime, can you talk about that visit the president made to the memorial for Martin Luther King Jr.? I mean, last year this time, the president was mired in a fair bit of controversy around issues of race.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Well, and those haven't really gone away. This was a low-key event. It was not on the president's public schedule. But he and the vice president made a very quick trip to the King memorial, which is not far from the White House. And the president did issue that proclamation in which he said that while there has been progress, there is still a lot of work to do in this country to achieve racial justice.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's NPR's Scott Horsley. Scott, thank you.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: You're welcome, Audie.

Thrift stores are overwhelmed as people bring stuff in after watching Netflix's Tidying Up with Marie Kondo. NPR's Audie Cornish hears from New Yorker fashion columnist Rachel Syme about the trend.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Around the country, thrift stores are being swamped with sweaters, shoes, coats, books.</s>BRIAN EDWARDS: Thousands and hundreds of thousands of donations. It's huge. We can hardly keep up with it.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's Brian Edwards. He's from Gulfstream Goodwill in south Florida speaking to his local station, WPTV. In Indianapolis, Braden Pothier of Wheeler Mission Thrift Store told Fox 59 News he's seeing the same thing.</s>BRADEN POTHIER: We've noticed a drastic increase in donations just over the past three or four weeks now.</s>RACHEL SYME: It looked like Fiddler on the Roof, you know, just like moving from one village to another. I mean, everybody had a giant Ikea bag full of clothes or five suitcases.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's New Yorker magazine columnist Rachel Syme describing the scene she witnessed at a used clothing store in Brooklyn.</s>RACHEL SYME: And I went down the line of people and just asked them, are you here because of the show? Nine out of 10 of them were. They had seen the show and immediately felt moved to get rid of their belongings.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The show she's referring to is the Netflix series "Tidying Up With Marie Kondo" which debuted on New Year's Day.</s>MARIE KONDO: Hello? I'm Marie Kondo. (Speaking Japanese).</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Kondo is the Japanese organizing expert whose bestselling book "The Life-Changing Magic Of Tidying Up" has sparked a nationwide decluttering frenzy. Her key advice - you should survey all your belongings and ask yourself if each thing sparks joy. If yes, keep it. If no, let it go.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Spark joy - it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: We're on board. We want to change. I just want it to be strong enough to change me.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In the show, Kondo travels around helping people go through the wrenching but ultimately liberating process of getting rid of stuff. Now, there's no proof that this is the main reason for the surge in donations at thrift stores, but Rachel Syme of The New Yorker points to the show's auspicious timing.</s>RACHEL SYME: Releasing it right on New Year's Day was a genius move by Netflix because everybody is already in this kind of self-improvement zone, and they want to start the year with a blank sheet of paper, a new leaf, an empty bookshelf. You know, everybody wants that sort of blank canvas start to the new year, and I think that cleaning out your closet is a huge signifier of that. It's kind of an unburdening.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Syme says she thinks the connection Kondo makes between decluttering and happiness has inspired the viewer to take action.</s>RACHEL SYME: I guess a lot of things weren't making people happy, but I will say if getting a new leather jacket makes you happy, now is a really good time to go to a thrift store and find one.

The media is in the spotlight for its coverage of a standoff between Covington Catholic High School students and a Native American elder.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: A tense encounter on the Washington Mall Friday between a Native American elder and a group of high school students from Kentucky has also become a battle over media coverage. Questions about how each acted in the episode have led to online condemnations, apologies and then recriminations against the press. Joining us to sort it all out is NPR media correspondent David Folkenflik. Hey there, David.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Hey, Audie.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So we have multiple videos out now online of the same scene, but it began with one, and it showed a Native American man and a white high school student inches apart with this crowd of other students chanting and jumping and smiling around him. Do we have a clearer picture now of what led to that point?</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: I think we do. I want to be careful about that, but I think we do. I mean, initially, this was a Rashomon moment meeting a Rorschach test, right? And what I think we now find is that these students were part of, in some ways, a three-party encounter. You had - a bunch of largely white, largely male students from Covington Catholic High School in Kentucky outside Cincinnati were at the - in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial for the March on Life event Friday. You had a fringe hate group called Black Hebrew Israelites, African-Americans, heaping invective upon whites they saw - just incredibly ugly rhetoric. And into this wanders a couple of Native American activists, including Nathan Phillip, who plays a drum and sings a song that he later says - tells NPR and others that he hoped in some ways would bring peace and de-escalate.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Some of the things the kids did were, you know, derogatory, derisive, denigrating. You saw some tomahawk chops from some students. You saw some chanting and mockery in some ways satirizing the Native American song. And so there was some ugliness as well as some other stuff there - perhaps not as bad as was initially alleged and charged.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Now, how does the media fall into all of this?</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Well, I think you saw some great lurching. You saw it on social media and particularly on online and cable, say, as Friday gave way to Saturday, Sunday - some real invective against the students. And there was condemnation by journalists and pundits, particularly online but also on cable. And then you saw, you know, calls for the students to be doxed - that is, their identities exposed, their homes, claims that they should be punished by their schools. You saw apologies by officials from the archdiocese locally there. And then the media went the other direction as more information came to light as it was clear that they were being subject to some abusive things from the Black Hebrew Israelites. And some questions - they didn't themselves surround the Native American protesters. It turns out that Philip (ph) and the small group of others approached them.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: President Trump says the students of Covington Catholic High School have become symbols of fake news. What is the media's role in this becoming politicized?</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Well, I think the fact - the combination of social media and a somewhat polarized media and a quick-twitch media just desperate to get it out in some ways amplified some of the flaws in the reporting and, you know, overlooked some of the nuances and some of - a little bit of the texture in this - that is, there was ugliness there, but it wasn't as clean as presented. And I think that the president, of course, uses this regardless.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: But I also think that it's important to note, you know, the students were there. They were wearing, you know, Make America Great Again caps. They seemed derisive. And, you know, the student at the center of it, Nick Sandman, he's hired in response to this criticism a PR firm based in Louisville with close ties the national Republican Party. He is set to show up tomorrow on the "Today" show on NBC to make his case. So, you know, he's willing to utilize the media as well.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: What should people take from this?</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: I think you take from this some of these verities. You know, a buddy of mine texted me over the weekend. He said I think media people were expressing the need to learn lessons they should have learned in journalism school. I think all journalists have - and in fact, all citizens, all of us, have to constantly relearn lessons we should know. Take your time. Take a breath, maybe not the sharpest judgment. Maybe don't draw the deepest conclusion. There should be the accretion of information, not this sort of pendular lurching from side to side.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's NPR media correspondent David Folkenflik. David, thank you.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: You bet.

Several people around the country explain how the shutdown of the federal government has touched their lives.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Parts of the government have been closed for more than a month now while President Trump and Democrats in Congress argue over funding a border wall. Meanwhile, the partial shutdown has wreaked havoc on the lives of some 800,000 federal employees. They are about to miss a second paycheck.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: We checked in today with some federal workers whom we met just after the shutdown had begun.</s>PAUL EMIL KIEFER JR: My name is Paul Emil (ph) Kiefer Jr. I work for the Internal Revenue Service in Austin, Texas. I am now considered an accepted employee, meaning that I am now critical to the mission. That still means I'm not getting paid.</s>PAUL EMIL KIEFER JR: Fortunately, I have enough money to make the next rent payment. But after that, I have to worry about my phone bill, my credit card payment. I have to worry about my insurance payments, my medicine 'cause I am a diabetic. And if I can't pay for my medicine, that's practically a death sentence.</s>LORI OTT: My name is Lori Ott. I'm a revenue agent for the IRS. I live in Lyman, Wyo. We're digging into savings a little bit. I have an adult daughter who has - who's disabled. And I cut back on her care to save some money. And then I'm home anyway, so I can take care of her myself more. We did get paid on the 31, so that was a nice surprise - but didn't get paid on the 14. And it's not looking good for the 28 right now. I'll be OK. I - (laughter) it can't last forever, but I can get through the 28.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: While both Congress and the White House say federal employees will get back pay once the government reopens, whenever that may be, government contractors, though, have gotten no such reassurances. Here's what some of them told us.</s>RICHARD NEWMAN: I'm Richard Newman. I own Chinook Flight services at Everett, Wash., at Paine Field. And I administer airman knowledge testing for the FAA. With the FAA local offices being shut down, people who require certifications cannot proceed onward to the certification. So they're not coming in for testing.</s>RICHARD NEWMAN: So I've had to stop doing certain activities to improve business, to make repairs to the facility or upgrades to the facility. And on a personal level, that means I also had to cut back on groceries in order to make my rent.</s>NAOMI RACHEL: My name is Naomi Rachel, and I'm the co-director of Milo Papers, which is a company that creates interpreted products for the national parks. And we live in Boulder, Colo. So that's all through the federal government. So obviously we're dead.</s>NAOMI RACHEL: Nobody's ever going to order until the government opens up because our clients have even gotten - we talked to the buyer at Death Valley. And he said, you know, we don't have a budget, and we don't know what - when we're ever going to have a budget.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Words of uncertainty from some of the people affected by the partial government shutdown.

General Electric spent six years and hundreds of millions of dollars trying to dredge toxic PCBs from New York's Hudson River. But now it's not clear whether this massive cleanup actually worked.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: There's a big fight in upstate New York over the future of the Hudson River. Over the last decade, the federal government forced General Electric to spend hundreds of millions of dollars cleaning up tons of toxic PCBs - oily, toxic chemicals the company dumped in the river. It was seen as a model program. But as North Country Public Radio's Brian Mann reports, a growing number of critics say it didn't work.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: It's a bitter-cold day in Hudson Falls, N.Y., and I'm down by the icy river bank. This is a stretch of water the state of New York says is still dangerously polluted. Basil Seggos heads New York's Department of Environmental Conservation.</s>BASIL SEGGOS: The levels of contamination of both fish and sediment have remained troublingly high.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: His office released a big new study last month concluding that levels of toxic PCBs haven't declined much despite six years of dredging and other restoration work.</s>BASIL SEGGOS: That doesn't mean that the original dredging was not worth it. But then you have to assess whether or not it worked and whether more is needed.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: General Electric hauled out tons of contaminated muck, spending roughly $2 billion on one of the biggest environmental cleanup efforts the U.S. has ever seen. This Superfund site sprawls over more than 200 miles of the Hudson River. The Environmental Protection Agency is doing its own research, trying to decide whether that work was good enough that they can call the project complete.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: But Manna Jo Greene, an environmental activist, says the report by scientists working for New York state shows that a clean bill of health for the Hudson would be premature.</s>MANNA JO GREENE: The results are disappointing in that a more robust cleanup is needed. EPA must not issue a certificate of completion to General Electric because that would let them off the hook.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: But there's growing skepticism in these old industrial towns along the Upper Hudson that more dredging and more cleanup will do any good.</s>JAY HARRINGTON: They should've left it alone from the get-go.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: Jay Harrington lives right next to the river. The backyard where his dogs play is bordered by the contaminated river bank.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: I mean, you live near the water. You say you've boated on it all these years. Do you worry about the health effects on you?</s>JAY HARRINGTON: It's too late now.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: You hear this over and over here, a kind of resignation. GE spread PCBs all over this valley before people realized the industrial chemical causes deformities in fish and other wildlife and carries a risk of cancer for humans. In a coffee shop nearby, Art and William Wells are eating lunch.</s>ART WELLS: How are you going to get it all out of the water? I just don't see how.</s>ART WELLS: I'm thinking with him - waste of time. I live right behind GE. I'm glowing. Can't you see me?</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: General Electric meanwhile is lobbying the EPA hard, hoping to convince federal officials that enough progress has been made, that more dredging isn't needed. By some estimates, another round of cleanup could cost GE $500 million at a time when the corporation is struggling financially. GE spokesman Mark Behan says the cleanup did more good than critics are willing to admit, and he accuses New York state of moving the goalposts, setting new, stricter standards to measure the cleanup's success.</s>MARK BEHAN: Based on the new standard it's applying, New York state now says they don't meet the threshold, but they did meet the EPA threshold.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: Basil Seggos, New York's conservation commissioner, says that's just not true.</s>BASIL SEGGOS: Our research in the last two years followed the exact same protocols as the EPA-mandated protocols that GE followed. So to suggest otherwise is frankly absurd.</s>BRIAN MANN, BYLINE: EPA officials who weren't available to talk because of the partial government shutdown will play referee here, deciding what additional work, if any, has to be done. Their final answer is expected this year. And whichever way they rule, it'll likely be tested by a lawsuit. This debate and the science emerging from the Hudson cleanup are being watched closely. Around the country, officials are preparing other big dredging projects on rivers contaminated with PCBs. Brian Mann, NPR News, Hudson Falls, N.Y.

Football is still king in America, but almost nobody wants to insure it. NPR's Audie Cornish talks with ESPN's Steve Fainaru about the growing crisis that could topple the U.S.'s most popular sport.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: The NFL has, over the last decade, been rocked by lawsuits over traumatic brain injuries, allegations of player domestic violence off the field and rule changes of their own. But according to an ESPN investigation, the sport is facing a problem that could threaten its very survival - lack of insurance. The NFL no longer has general liability insurance covering head trauma. And only one carrier is willing to cover teams for workman's comp. In short, if there's no insurance, there's no football. Steve Fainaru co-wrote the story with Mark Fainaru-Wada for ESPN's Outside the Lines. He joins me now. Welcome to the program.</s>STEVE FAINARU: Thank you.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So help us understand right now what the NFL is dealing with when it comes to insurance.</s>STEVE FAINARU: It started with the resolution of the class-action suit against the NFL that was over concussions. You had thousands of former players that were accusing the league of covering up the link between football and neurodegenerative disease. The NFL settled that suit for an estimated $1 billion. And since then, the insurance industry has been taking a look at the litigation that's been proliferating since then. And it's hitting the sport at all levels - from Pop Warner all the way up to the league. And the result has been that many of the companies have just been taking a pass. They've been getting out of the industry. So if the league was sued under its general liability policy on this issue in the future, they're on their own. They ultimately have to pay it.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: It's interesting. So, basically, no matter what the NFL says or anyone attempting to debate the science of what's going on, insurers have made a call already, which is, like, they're out.</s>STEVE FAINARU: Yeah, I think this is one of the things that is so striking about this issue - is that it's a market issue. And so for all the issues that the NFL has been doing to try to mitigate this problem, to try to - putting money into the research and changing the rules - that the insurance industry is making its own judgments about where this is going. And I think that what they're seeing is that there's just still a tremendous amount of uncertainty. There's been so much litigation that's proliferated since the NFL settled the class-action suit in 2013 that it really gives the insurance industry pause. The NFL's insurance broker, Alex Fairly, spoke with us. And he said bluntly that if you are football or other contact sports, the insurance industry basically doesn't want you right now.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So your reporting shows that we're already starting to see the impact of this - smaller programs shutting down because of insurance costs. Can you describe one or two stories that stuck out to you?</s>STEVE FAINARU: The problem is especially acute at the lower levels, at the nonrevenue-producing sports. So Pop Warner, for example, was told by its longtime insurer that it would no longer cover the organization for any neurological injury. And they found that there was only one company that was able to provide them that coverage. And the executive director of Pop Warner, Jon Butler, told us there's only, really, two solutions for Pop Warner if they can't get insurance. They either have to declare bankruptcy, or they go out of business.</s>STEVE FAINARU: So that would obviously pose incredible problems for the 250,000 youth players that are involved in Pop Warner. We followed a case in Maricopa County, Ariz., where a junior college district decided to eliminate football for four teams. They found that the cost of insuring 358 football players represented one-third of the entire costs of the 200,000 students that were in the system. And they decided that was just too much. And they had to get out of it.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: In the long run, as more and more insurers get out and get out at the level you were talking about - Pop Warner - right? - people's early introduction to playing the sport, could that have a long-term effect on football itself?</s>STEVE FAINARU: I think we'll have to see. But I think it's obvious - if you can't get insurance with all the litigation that's out there, it becomes essentially impossible to field a team. And so for youth sports in particular - and then when you get into the high-school level, there is an enormous amount of complexity around it. But it is sort of a basic thing - that if you can't get insurance, it becomes very difficult to stage the sport.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: Steve Fainaru reports for ESPN's Outside the Lines. Thank you for sharing your reporting with us.</s>STEVE FAINARU: Thanks, Audie.

Even before American Airlines cancelled 2,000 flights, people were unhappy with airlines according to a survey. Airline analyst Richard Aboulafia discusses the industry's latest problems.

ALEX COHEN, host: This week's turmoil in the airline industry has created a nightmare for people who handle travel arrangements. Larry Swerdlin runs Burton Travel just outside Baltimore, Maryland. And thank you for joining us, especially considering this is probably a pretty nutty day for you, huh?</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): Absolutely, absolutely.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: What's it been like? What kind of calls are you getting?</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): Ah this is an absolute nightmare, we're getting calls from people who were stranded trying to get where they need to go, trying to get back from where they have been. And the system is just taxed to the maximum, there's no slack in terms of back-up aircraft that airlines can roll out. Seats are at a real premium, both on American where they're still flying and on other carriers. And we're just running as fast as we can, trying to help these folks.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: So what do you tell people?</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): Ah, if they booked through us, we tell them you did the right thing booking through us or a professional travel consultant, and we're here to help you, and we're going to do what we need to do to get you back home. If they booked someplace else, we say, we will try and help you, but you - in the future, you may want to consider booking with a live voice that's there for you.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: So this might be a little of a boon for you?</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): It absolutely it is. Absolutely is. It's not a question of when these things were going to happen, because they happen. You know, the Internet is wonderful, the Internet is great for point-to-point travel, there's nothing better. However, when something goes bump in the night if you have somebody with whom you've got a relationship that's going to care about you, that's going to care about seeing you back in Owings Mills, Maryland, or wherever, that's what it's about.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: A lot of people who are stuck out there now at airports are business travelers and presumably they're missing meetings, conventions, all sorts of important stuff. How big of an impact is this week going to have on businesses?</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): It's going to have a tremendous impact. People that are truly road warriors and know how gruesome the system is even under the best of circumstances will look at something like this and say, well you know, maybe next time we really can do it by telephone. Maybe next time we really can do a teleconference, or whatever, so it's not good for the system in general.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Well, and this is not a particularly good time for the airline industry to be losing more business. It seems like there could be a lot of ripple effect from this.</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): Tremendous ripple effects in terms of both losing more business and losing the money that it costs to pull something like this off. Back in the good old days, you had a situation like this and a flight would get canceled, we could just refund that airfare. American is making the refund process extremely arduous. We as agents are not authorized to refund money, even if American cancels an operation, canceled a flight the pockets are just not that deep to handle that, to handle the overnights, to handle all the expenses.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Mr. Swerdlin, there are people stuck at airports today. Do you have any sense of how long it might take for everyone to be to actually get to where they are going?</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): Not really. You know, I'm sure there are going to be tremendous worst-case scenarios, and I'm sure some people are going to get in a car from Butte, Montana to drive back to Charleston, South Carolina, and have that horror story. I think probably, you know, a couple days for it to be worked out.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Larry Swerdlin runs Burton Travel in Owings Mills, Maryland. Thank you.</s>Mr. LARRY SWERDLIN (Owner, Burton Travel): Thanks very much.

U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May unveiled her latest plan to take Britain out of the European Union on Monday. Critics say her statement contained little that might move the process forward.

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May is yet again facing an elusive task - forging consensus with members of the British Parliament over Brexit. Now, if she succeeds, she could then return to the European Union and ask for concessions. May's first plan was resoundingly rejected by Parliament last week. Today she tried again. NPR's Frank Langfitt joins us now from London to talk more about it. Hey there, Frank.</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: Hi, Audie.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So what did the prime minister say to lawmakers today? What was different?</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: Well, she sort of said - she didn't add very much, frankly, Audie. She said she's going to try to find some kind of compromise in Parliament that the EU will back and that she's going to talk - continue to talk across party lines. The biggest sticking point we've been talking about for months here is avoiding customs checks along the border in Ireland while not trapping the United Kingdom inside a customs arrangement with the EU that could last for years. And here's what the prime minister said.</s>PRIME MINISTER THERESA MAY: We will work to identify how we can ensure that our commitment to no hard border in Northern Ireland and Ireland can be delivered in a way that commands the support of this house and the European Union.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So how is this different from what the prime minister said last week?</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: It's not very different at all. She's been saying this for some time. And the thing about today - she didn't offer any new details, and that's kind of the problem. You know, before, she hadn't even been consulting with other parties in Parliament when she was negotiating this deal with the European Union. And today, the opposition Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn - he said the whole process feels like the movie "Groundhog Day." And it certainly feels that way to a lot of people who've been covering it. She finally now says she is going to compromise with other parties. And this is what Corbyn had to say.</s>JEREMY CORBYN: So, Mr. Speaker, no more phony talks. Parliament will debate and decide. And this time - this time, Mr. Speaker, I hope and expect the government to listen.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: So we hear a lot about Parliament saying they want to take control of the process. But did we see any evidence of them trying to do that?</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: Yeah, you did hear more people referring to that today. Yvette Cooper - she's a parliamentarian with the Labour Party. She said some members of Parliament want to be able to vote on specific elements of a Brexit plan, including things that they're really interested in, like keeping a much closer relationship by staying inside the EU Customs Union. This is what Cooper had to say.</s>YVETTE COOPER: But to be honest, we heard all of this before. If she's serious, why not give Parliament a say? Why not put to Parliament some votes on her red lines, including a Customs Union? Otherwise, how can any of us believe a word she says?</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: And what Cooper's talking about here, Audie, is the opportunity to really reshape the deal that the prime minister wants. When she's talking about red lines, the prime minister said, we're going to leave the giant single market; we're going to leave the Customs Union of the European Union. What Yvette Cooper's saying is, we want to have different choices here; we don't like your plan; we'd like to see something much closer with the EU.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: And the clock is running out. March 29 is the deadline for Britain to leave the EU. Where does this leave the prime minister?</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: She's got to find some kind of consensus with Parliament, which is very difficult because Parliament is deeply divided. Many members of Parliament want completely different things. It's a tough thing for the prime minister to do. Then if she gets that, she's got to go back to Brussels and get concessions. Brussels has said no more negotiations. Then she comes back on the 29, puts something in front of Parliament, which they can amend. And we'll see where it goes from there.</s>AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: That's NPR's Frank Langfitt speaking to us from London. Frank, thank you.</s>FRANK LANGFITT, BYLINE: Happy to do it, Audie.

The top commander in Iraq testifed about the status of the year-long "surge," on Capitol Hill on Tuesday.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen. Coming up, our colleague Alex Chadwick is in Pennsylvania. That's the site of the next big primary contest for the Democratic presidential contenders.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: First though, we go to the Senate, where the top U.S. commander in Iraq and the U.S. ambassador to Iraq are testifying. It will be a long day for David Petraeus and Ryan Crocker. Senators are questioning them about whether or not the surge is working and when troops can come home. The U.S. has begun withdrawing troops after last year's build-up, but increased violence in Iraq in recent weeks has raised questions about that strategy.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: General Petraeus says the military should halt that withdraw this July, so that commanders can evaluate the security situation in Iraq.</s>General DAVID PETRAEUS (Commander of U.S. Forces in Iraq): While security has improved in many areas and the Iraqi security forces are shouldering more of the load, the situation in Iraq remains exceedingly complex and challenging. Iraq could face a resurgence of al-Qaeda Iraq or additional Shia groups could violate Muqtada al-Sadr's cease-fire order and return to violence. External actors like Iran could stoke violence within Iraq, and actions by other neighbors could undermine the security situation, as well.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: General Petraeus also advised senators about what Iraq must do for U.S efforts to succeed. They need to strengthen their government, create budgets, and conduct elections. Failure to do so, Petraeus said, would be disastrous.</s>General DAVID PETRAEUS (Commander of U.S. Forces in Iraq): A failed state in Iraq would pose serious consequences for the greater fight against al-Qaeda, for regional stability, for the already existing humanitarian crisis in Iraq, and for the efforts to counter malign Iranian influence.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's General David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, testifying today before Congress on the progress in the Iraq war. Later this hour, we'll speak with NPR's Tom Bowman. He's our Pentagon correspondent, and he's following the hearings in Washington.

U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker, gave a status report to Congress on Tuesday. We read between the lines.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day, I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen. General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker are on Capitol Hill today talking about the status of U.S. troops in Iraq. Ambassador Crocker told law makers that the U.S. needs to stick to its current policy or risk failure.</s>Ambassador RYAN CROCKER (U.S. Ambassador to Iraq): Our current course is hard, but it is working. Progress is real, although still fragile. We need to stay with it.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Some senators were skeptical. We'll have more on today's testimony by Ambassador Crocker and General Petraeus from NPR's Tom Bowman later on in the program.

New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg's push to charge congestion fees was shot down by lawmakers in Albany. Madeleine Brand talks with Albany reporter Jeremy Peters about why the planned congestion pricing failed.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Congestion pricing is also a possibility in New York City. In fact, the London plan is what inspired New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to propose charging cars 8 dollars and trucks 21 dollars to drive into parts of Manhattan - the most congested parts of Manhattan. Joining us now is Matthew Schuerman of member station WNYC. And there is a vote today on the proposal in Albany, in the state capital, and he is there covering it. So Mayor Bloomberg, he's proposing these fees because what, it's just impossible to drive in midtown Manhattan?</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: Well, the business community thinks that it costs a lot of money. It ties of their employees and their deliveries to the tune of - one estimate was 13 billion dollars a year. This was all a part of the mayor's plan, really, last year to green New York City, get it ready for another million inhabitants. And part of that is transferring people from the roads onto mass transit.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And the feds will kick in 350 million dollars, if this plan is approved. Would that money go to public transportation?</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: Exactly. It would accommodate about 100,000 riders - drivers, I should say, who are expected to move from cars onto mass transit.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So the mayor is a big proponent of this. Who else is supporting it?</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: He got support from businesses, of course. Interestingly enough, also from low income advocates, community organizations, and the like, whose constituents already take mass transit and need more of it. And then, of course, there are environmental groups, who see that this will bring cleaner air to the region.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Now, this being New York, it can't be easy to get something like this through? Who's opposing it?</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: Especially the legislators in what we call the outer boroughs, all the boroughs aside from Manhattan, but I should say, also a fair number of Manhattan legislators as well, who just think there are too many questions about this, who see it as a tax on the middle class, who do drive into work. And who don't want to be the first one, perhaps in the nation, to try something like this and fail.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So this congestion plan, it would start at 60th Street?</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: That's right, 60th Street down to the battery, about half the island of Manhattan.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So is there fear that people would come in and park on 61st street and above and make those neighborhoods just, basically, a parking lot?</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: That is exactly a fear, although the Department of Transportation did a survey, and found that there aren't any parking spaces in those neighboring neighborhoods anyway.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's right.</s>MATTHEW SCHUERMAN: And there are other measures that the city could impose, such as residential permit parking, for example, to mitigate that problem.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: All right. So there's a vote today. What are the chances that it'll pass? ..TEXT: SCHUERMAN: It's looking pretty slim at the moment. It's a lot more complicated than London. We have lots of different layers of government to go through. I think in London, the mayor just flipped the switch, and it went on. There are already tolls, for example, that some people already pay, especially from New Jersey, so what's going to happen to those tolls? It's a very tricky situation here. ..TEXT: BRAND: All right. WNYC's Matthew Schuerman covering New York's congestion pricing vote which may or may not happen today in Albany, New York. Thank you, Matthew. ..TEXT: SCHUERMAN: Thank you.

House Democrats pass bills aimed at reopening the government. More U.S. troops are expected to be deployed to the border. And thousands of new homes for Israeli settlers may be built in the West Bank.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're in a rare moment in Washington, D.C., when President Trump is not the lead news story. Instead it's the Democrats who've taken over the House of Representatives for the first time in eight years.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: For the first time in two years, Democrats have the power to make a move. Under House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, they voted to reopen the government and included none of the money President Trump demanded for a border wall.</s>UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there any situation in which you would accept even a dollar of wall funding?</s>NANCY PELOSI: A dollar?</s>NANCY PELOSI: A dollar, $1 - yeah, $1.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: But she didn't sound very eager to go much higher.</s>NANCY PELOSI: It's a wall between reality and his constituents, his supporters. He does not want them to know what he's doing to Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security in his budget proposal. He does not want them to know what he's doing to clean air and clean water and the rest in his department of interior and of EPA. He does not want them to know how he is hurting them. So he keeps the subject on the wall. He's a master of diversion.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Pelosi spoke as new lawmakers from both parties settled into the Capitol. Combat veterans, many women, people of color and others posed for photos - quite dramatic scenes. Late in the day, President Trump emerged from the White House.</s>PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have never had so much support as I have in the last week over my stance for border security, for border control and for, frankly, the wall or the barrier.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Surveys have shown the demand for a border wall to be unpopular, though it is favored by many of his core supporters.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, so we are joined now by NPR's lead political editor, Domenico Montanaro, to get the latest on the shutdown, when it's going to end. He's got all the answers, right, Domenico?</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: All of them, always.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All of them, all the answers. OK...</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: How's it going, Rachel?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It goes well. So Nancy Pelosi, one of the first items of business, passing this package of bills to keep the government open, no border wall funding. Is this going to go anywhere?</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Not really because Republicans aren't going to take it up in the Senate. And the president said that he would veto it if it passed Congress. So we're back where we've been. Nancy Pelosi says that what passed was, quote, "a mature way out" for the president because she's not giving in on the border wall. As we heard her say, she might take a dollar but that's about all.</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: And this measure would open the government back up, funding several agencies for a year. It would kick the fight over border funding another month, tied to funding for the Department of Homeland Security. Democrats point out this was basically what Republicans were set to pass before the president reversed course in December.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, Republicans up until this point, led by Mitch McConnell, have been fairly unified on this, saying, we don't want to take up anything the president's not going to sign. But there appear to be some cracks in that front right now.</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: There are a couple cracks. At least two Republican senators are calling for funding the government without this border wall fight. That's Cory Gardner of Colorado and Susan Collins of Maine. Gardner said that Congress needs to take further action on border security, but that work should be done when the government is fully open. Collins said that the government basically should not be held hostage to this debate over border security. Oh, and by the way, Rachel, both of them are up for re-election in 2020.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right.</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: And we've seen Republican Senate Leader Mitch McConnell want to protect a lot of his members who are up for re-election. But so far, he's stayed on the sidelines. And a lot of people think he might be one way out of this because he would be needed to kind of move the impasse forward.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So President Trump came out yesterday. It was supposed to be the first press briefing, with Sarah Sanders, of the new year - instead a surprise visit by the president. What did he say?</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Yeah, it was not a press briefing. Instead, we had the president come out - seemed to be a direct response to Pelosi returning to the speakership, congratulated her but dug his heels in and tried to make the case again for the border wall funding.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, NPR's Domenico Montanaro. Domenico, thank you. We appreciate it.</s>DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: You're welcome.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: At one point, the president said if Congress doesn't give him the money that he wants to build a border wall, more than $5 billion, he'll just have the U.S. military do it. The president appears to be moving ahead with that idea.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah, the Pentagon is sending more U.S. troops to the border. Their job is to build or upgrade 160 miles of fencing. It's along the border in Arizona and California. Now, bear in mind, those two states are already mostly fenced. Acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan described the deployment.</s>PATRICK SHANAHAN: The Army Corps of Engineers is dialed in on doing this cost effectively, quickly and with the right amount of urgency as to where we can build additional stand-up walls quickly and then get after the threat. The threat is real.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Troops will also provide medical care to migrant families.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Pentagon correspondent, Tom Bowman, joins us this morning. Good morning, my friend.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hello, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how many troops are we talking about here?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: You know, at this point we don't know. And here's a challenge for the administration. There are about 2,300 active-duty troops along the border together with about 2,000 National Guard troops. Now, the deployment for the active troops wraps up at the end of the month. So they're going to have to make some decisions. Do we extend the current troops? Do we send more troops?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: And I'm told that for the fencing portion of this, you're looking at more combat engineers. They could possibly be sent. And also Homeland Security's (inaudible) more medical units as well. Of course, two children died along the border in the custody of U.S. officials, so they need additional help - and also aviation units to provide surveillance along the border. So they're going to have to make some decisions pretty quickly because again, the deployment wraps up at the end of the month.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. And this - this is in addition to the U.S. troops who were already sent down there to manage the so-called caravan of migrants, right?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: That's right.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So it's also happening, obviously, during a partial government shutdown. So where are they going to get the money for this? Is this coming out of the Pentagon's previous budget?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: They're getting it from the Pentagon budget. And also, the Pentagon has not shut down. They're still - they're still working, as we see, along the border. So yeah, there's some grumbling about this at the Pentagon. It's a waste of money, or this is not what you use active-duty troops for. This is generally a National Guard mission. So privately, there is some grumbling about this. But they say, listen, this is a legal order from the president. We'll carry it out.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You mention decisions are going to have to be made soon. Do we have any idea, at this point, when - when we could see troops there on the border actually reinforcing fencing?</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Well, I don't have a sense of exactly when they're going to start this mission. But I'm told it could take several months. And this is, you know - talking about a lot of mileage here. So this could, you know, require a substantial amount of troops.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: One official told me a few thousand troops perhaps. Another said, well, the current troops there could at least start this effort as you bring more troops in. But at this point, I know the Pentagon is working on this, planning this. And we don't have any specifics on it right yet.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman for us this morning. Tom, thanks. We appreciate it.</s>TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: OK, you're welcome.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, next we're going to turn to Israel, where thousands of new homes for Israeli settlers are being planned in the occupied West Bank.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Most countries denounce Israeli settlements because they're spread out across land that Palestinians demand for their own state. The Trump administration has been tolerant, though, of Israeli settlements. In fact, a watchdog group says there's been a building frenzy in the settlements since President Trump took office.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Daniel Estrin has been visiting those areas in the West Bank. And he is on the line now. Good morning, Daniel.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What can you tell us about - about these construction plans?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Well, last week Israel advanced plans to build nearly 2,800 new settlement homes in the West Bank. And the big picture here, Rachel, is that in the last two years, during Trump's presidency, Israel has pushed forward a lot of settlement construction plans. And it's a big difference from the last two years of the Obama presidency.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: This anti-settlement watchdog group you referenced, Peace Now, tracks these numbers. And it says that in Trump's first year of office, the number of housing plans that Israel advanced was about 2 1/2 times higher than the number in the last year of the Obama administration.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So, I mean, it's hard to overstate just how sensitive this issue is, right?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I mean, so much of it plays into the history of the region, the identity of the peoples. Can you just explain kind of contextually how important this is for Israelis and Palestines - Palestinians, rather?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Settlements are at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They are spread out in the West Bank. That's where Palestinians live, and that's where Palestinians want an independent state. And most countries want to see Israel give up at least most of the West Bank for Palestinians to have their own state. And they say that's the only way that there will be a solution to this long-running conflict. And the more Israel builds up its settlements, the more entrenched Israel becomes in that land.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So as we noted, you've been out visiting some of these very areas where Israel has - has made these plans, advanced the settlement construction. What have you seen there?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Well, this morning I visited a small village, a Palestinian village called Nahalin. And across the valley is one of the biggest Israeli settlements. And it's growing. You can see the construction vehicles. You can hear the bang, bang, bang of the construction vehicles. They're building a new neighborhood to expand the settlement.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: And I was surprised they were even working on a Friday, which is a weekend day here. And it's one of three settlements that surround this village where Israel has recently announced new planned housing. So the Palestinian mayor of the village said he feels he's being choked. He says this is unjust.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: And then I drove to the settlement next door. And I met a devout Jewish Israeli there. And he said, well, this construction is good. God promised us this land in the Torah. This is our land. This is not their land. Palestinians don't deserve this land. Arabs have plenty of countries. This - there's only one Jewish state.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Daniel, I want to note that you said that Israeli settlement construction plans advanced during the Obama administration and the Trump administration - just a little bit slower in the Obama administration. Is the point of view of the Israeli government becoming essentially what that settler told you, that no matter what any U.S. administration says, they're going to go ahead as much as they can?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Well, I think a lot of - especially in the - in the settler community here, they believe that Trump is giving them a green light, whereas Obama gave them a yellow light. I remember being at a Trump election victory party in 2016. Settler activists were drinking Trump-branded vodka. They were hoping Trump would allow this to happen. And it seems - the numbers suggest that it is.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, NPR's Daniel Estrin for us this morning on these new plans. Israel is planning to construct new Israeli settlements on the West Bank. Daniel, thanks. We appreciate you sharing your reporting with us.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: You're welcome.

Rachel Martin talks to Derek Thompson of The Atlantic about the impact of college selectivity on life after graduation.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Here's a question to ponder. Does it really make a difference where you go to college? According to Derek Thompson, it depends. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic and has been tracking the research on this question. It's particularly relevant right now for prospective students about to make this very decision. We started in our conversation talking about the basic assumption that the more elite the university, the better your salary prospects are when you get out.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: Well, first I should just say that I shared everyone else's assumption. I mean, if you count up all of the billionaires in the U.S. and a lot of the president's Supreme Court justices, they are disproportionately coming from America's elite institutions. So you'd think, yes, of course, it matters. But sometimes, as economics shows us, that which appears obvious is not in fact true. So in 2002, there was a very famous paper by the economists Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger that came to the startling conclusion that for the vast majority of students, if you controlled for the characteristics before they attended those elite institutions, they couldn't find any effect that the elite institutions had themselves.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: Most people who either get into Harvard or who are on the bubble of getting into Harvard are essentially of Harvard quality, anyway, no matter where they go to school. So by the time they enter the workforce in their 20s and 30s, they're essentially earning a Harvard salary. So essentially, the way that I sum this up when I talk to students, and especially the students now who are sweating these thin or fat packages of all the schools that they applied to, it matters much more the person you become at 18 than the institution you graduate from at 22.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I understand, though, there is some newer research that looked more closely at the impact of race and gender, which matters here, right? What does that say?</s>DEREK THOMPSON: That's right. Late last year, a new study from economists examined the exact same data set and came to two very interesting conclusions. First, among men, the study found no relationship between college selectivity and long-term earnings. No Harvard effect. But for women, attending a school that's more selective - made them more likely to earn more and less likely to get married.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: So what it seems to find is that going to a really, really elite school, for women, makes them more likely to devote themselves to a career before they get married, delay marriage and childbirth itself, and then to work more even after you get married.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: So you could sort of sum this up by saying that the effect of going to an elite school for women isn't so much that it makes them more productive per hour. It's that it makes them work more hours. It makes them think more about a career and the way that they should give that career preference over having a family in their late 20s and early 30s.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. So what about race?</s>DEREK THOMPSON: So in race, both papers came to the exact same conclusion. They found that for people who come from lower-income families or who aren't white, attending an elite institution like Harvard or Stanford or Duke has a big effect on earnings. And so the way that I think about this is, like, all right. These minority students, these lower-income students, they're listening to the same professors. They're sitting in the same chairs and taking the same tests as their whiter or richer peers.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: So what exactly is happening? Well, what I think is happening is that if you're a kid from a high-income family, your parents already have a really rich network of internships and entry-level jobs they can plug you into no matter where you go to school.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: But if you come from a lower-income family that has less socioeconomic status then the college itself is serving as the plug into these higher-earning parts of the economy.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What does this mean for universities that are prioritizing diversity right now?</s>DEREK THOMPSON: I think it's really important that they try harder. If you look right now at the socioeconomic makeup of the most elite institutions in the United States, they are not representative of the U.S. They are representative of the already affluent. So these elite institutions have the ability to be factories of social mobility. They can take low-income and minority students and turn them into extremely high-earning adults.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: But for the most part, they reserve their seats for students who are going to be affluent, anyway. They have the ability to be incredible duplicators of the American dream, but they are not in fact achieving that end.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Derek Thompson, staff writer at The Atlantic magazine. Derek, thanks so much.</s>DEREK THOMPSON: Thank you.

Robert Mueller's investigation into Russian election interference gets a lot of attention, but U.S. Justice Department and other security officials say the real espionage threat comes from China.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Robert Mueller's Russia investigation has put a very public spotlight on Moscow's intelligence operations against the U.S. But over the past year, indictments have piled up, one after the other, involving a different foreign adversary - China. NPR justice reporter Ryan Lucas reports.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: For all the attention paid to Russia of late, U.S. officials don't view Moscow as the primary long-term threat to American power and global influence. That distinction lies with China. Here's how FBI Director Christopher Wray recently described Beijing's rivalry with Washington.</s>CHRISTOPHER WRAY: China's goal, simply put, is to replace the U.S. as the world's leading superpower. And they're using illegal methods to get there.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: And it's those illegal methods that have caught the attention of the Justice Department. American officials say China is using cyberattacks to vacuum up U.S. government and business secrets. It's pressuring Chinese students and scientists to pilfer research from American universities and labs. And it's co-opting insiders at U.S. companies to steal confidential trade information.</s>CHRISTOPHER WRAY: Chinese government is not pulling any punches. They want what we have so that they can get the upper hand on us. And they're strategic in their approach. They're playing the long game.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: That strategic approach includes targeting a range of high-tech industries, such as biotechnology, artificial intelligence and aerospace. Those match sectors Beijing tapped for development in its strategic plan released four years ago called "Made In China 2025." John Demers, the head of the Justice Department's National Security Division, recently spelled out for Congress how Beijing operates.</s>JOHN DEMERS: The playbook is simple - rob, replicate and replace. Rob the American company of its intellectual property. Replicate that technology. And replace the American company in the Chinese market, and one day, in the global market.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: In one recent example, a grand jury indicted three people in a Chinese state-owned company in November. They were charged with economic espionage related to the theft of trade secrets from a U.S. semiconductor company. That is just one of a handful of cases the DOJ has brought related to China's alleged theft of American intellectual property. In the last year, the Justice Department has announced charges against more than a dozen people and companies for allegedly attempting to steal economic secrets on China's behalf. The latest case was unsealed in late December.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Well, the U.S. Justice Department has announced a stinging indictment of the Chinese government. It's charging two Chinese nationals with carrying out an extensive hacking campaign.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: The DOJ alleges the two Chinese men were part of a hacking group called APT10 and worked in association with China's Ministry of State Security. The hackers penetrated computer networks of more than 45 companies in 12 states, carting off hundreds of gigabytes of confidential data. The pair's hacking efforts ran for 12 years. Trying to continue to conduct traditional spy versus spy espionage against the U.S., one former CIA officer was convicted last year of spying for China, while another former CIA officer is to go on trial this year.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: But it is China's relentless cyberattacks against American companies that are a particular source of concern and frustration for the U.S. government. China struck an agreement in 2015 with the Obama administration not to conduct cyberattacks for economic espionage. But U.S. officials say that after an initial drop-off, those attacks have ramped back up. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein did not mince his words when announcing the charges last month.</s>ROD ROSENSTEIN: We want China to cease its illegal cyber activities and honor its commitment to the international community.</s>RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: The Justice Department has vowed to push back against China's actions. One way it will do that, Rosenstein says, is by bringing more cases against individuals stealing on China's behalf. Ryan Lucas, NPR News, Washington.

Netflix took down an episode of the show Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj in Saudi Arabia as an effort to comply with local law. In the show, Minhaj laces into the country's rulers.

NOEL KING, HOST: Netflix has pulled an episode of the satirical show "Patriot Act With Hasan Minhaj" from its service in Saudi Arabia. Minhaj spent that episode criticizing Saudi Arabia's autocratic leadership. NPR's media correspondent David Folkenflik has the story.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: From the outset of the episode, Minhaj laced into the country's rulers. He took particular rhetorical aim at its crown prince.</s>HASAN MINHAJ: And it blows my mind that it took the killing of a Washington Post journalist for everyone to go, oh. I guess he's really not a reformer. Meanwhile, every Muslim person you know was like, yeah, no [expletive]. He's the crown prince of Saudi Arabia.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Minhaj detailed the links between Prince Mohammed bin Salman and the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi. And he invoked the Saudis' deadly bombings of civilians in Yemen and restrictive laws against women. Minhaj also denounced American political figures for courting the prince and Silicon Valley for accepting money from the ruling Saud family through its stake in a Japanese conglomerate called SoftBank. SoftBank has major investments in Uber and WeWork.</s>HASAN MINHAJ: WeWork won't let you expense meat, but you take money from Saudi Arabia. Let me - so you're against slaughterhouses unless they're in Yemen. But hey, try our co-working spaces. We got Philz Coffee.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: And then Minhaj made a direct appeal.</s>HASAN MINHAJ: So now would be a good time to reassess our relationship with Saudi Arabia. And I mean that as a Muslim and as an American.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Minhaj's program on Saudi Arabia first ran in late October. According to a corporate spokeswoman, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Communication and Information Technology Commission wrote to Netflix in December that the episode broke the law. It cited a passage that bans material, quote, "impinging on public order, religious values and public morals." Netflix says it strongly supports artistic freedom but removed the episode last week to comply with local laws after doing due diligence. It previously dropped several shows from its Singapore service, citing that nation's stringent censorship laws. Netflix executives say the company's future financial prospects depend on its performance abroad. Here's Netflix co-founder and CEO Reed Hastings in remarks during a briefing for investors in October.</s>REED HASTINGS: We hardly look at it U.S. and internationally, but we look at it internally almost all just globally.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: David Kaye notes a pattern of repression of speech by Saudi Arabia, including Khashoggi's killing and the imprisonment and flogging of bloggers. Kaye is a law professor at the University of California at Irvine, who is a special rapporteur for the United Nations, monitoring freedom of expression worldwide.</s>DAVID KAYE: So, you know, the situation here isn't merely that Hasan Minhaj isn't able to be to be heard through Netflix in Saudi. But it's rather that the audience that he has is being denied a fundamental right to information that they have under international human rights law.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Kaye says companies often have more leverage than they think, as their services are popular.</s>DAVID KAYE: I think what we're seeing in the case of Netflix and Saudi Arabia is something that we see globally, which is this kind of tug of war between global companies and their audiences on one side and governments that are seeking to tamp down on free expression and access to information on the other.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK, BYLINE: Minhaj remains silent on Netflix yielding to censorship by the Saudis, first reported by the Financial Times. Yesterday, he tweeted - clearly, the best way to stop people from watching something is to ban it, make it trend online and then leave it up on YouTube. David Folkenflik, NPR News.

Congressional leaders go to the White House for a border security briefing. A U.S. citizen is in Russian custody on suspicion of spying. And, NASA's New Horizons probe makes history.

NOEL KING, HOST: Congressional leaders are going to go to the White House today for a briefing on border security.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Which happens to be what the current government shutdown is all about. White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders says the lawmakers will be briefed by senior officials from the Department of Homeland Security. This, though, is the administration's attempt to convince lawmakers they need to fund the president's border wall and end the stalemate that has led to this partial shutdown. When Democrats take control of the House tomorrow, things are also likely to become even more complicated.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: NPR congressional correspondent Susan Davis is with us in studio. Good morning, Sue.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: Good morning.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So who is invited to this meeting today, and what's on the agenda?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: The president invited the top eight congressional leaders, so that includes the two top Republicans and Democrats in both the House and Senate. The White House, as you said, called it a briefing, which is rather unusual because I think congressional leaders are pretty firmly understanding the nuances of this debate here. But it is the first shot that they've had to bring everybody into the same room since the holidays and hopefully begin to create some kind of a path out of this.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Are we seeing - are you seeing any movement toward a compromise, toward a path out?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: There's been movement, but there hasn't been much compromise. House Democrats, earlier this week, announced what their plan is going to be this week. They are going to put a bill onto the floor that will fund the government and reopen it and continue the negotiations over the Department of Homeland Security funding. The White House has already called that a non-starter, so there's not much room for compromise there. However, the president, on Twitter - and Twitter is his main mode of communication over the course of the shutdown - did tweet at incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, saying he wants to make a deal.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Well, the Democrats take over the House tomorrow, so how does that change the dynamic of these negotiations?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: The White House has taken this position that they see Nancy Pelosi as being somehow hobbled by these negotiations, that it's weakening her as she's coming into power again. I'm not sure the Democrats really see it the same way. I think that they see this, especially as they come into power on Thursday and take control of the House of Representatives, as a chance to paint a contrast with a president who has been rather erratic over the course of these negotiations.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: Remember, this started when the president said he would not sign a bill to fund the government that he had already promised he would sign. So Democrats see it as a chance to vote to reopen the government and then throw the ball back into the president's court.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So in this briefing today, do we have a sense of whether Democrats are entering into it in a stronger position than the president and Republicans?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: You know, you still need all three to cut a deal. What is interesting is Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has essentially taken a backseat in these negotiations. From the beginning, he said Senate Republicans were not going to do any test votes or, you know, symbolic votes. We just need the president to tell us what he'll sign, and we'll put that on the floor. And he has put that burden on Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi to figure out what that path is with the president.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: The challenge here - and that's going to continue to be the challenge - is that this is an issue where the two parties are pretty dug in, and it is an incredibly symbolic issue over, not just this wall, but the president's entire immigration policy. And so far, there just really hasn't been much room in the middle here to reconcile the two.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: I will say, I think as public pressure may change on this, it might change the needle a little bit. I think a lot of Americans weren't really fully feeling the partial shutdown effects. It's been the holidays. People haven't been paying attention to the news. Everyone's back at work. They're tuning into the news. And it might put more political pressure, on one side or the other, to be the one that essentially blinks and caves in and reopens the government.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Sue, let me ask you a last question. Last night, Mitt Romney - of course, a former Republican presidential candidate who will be sworn in to the Senate tomorrow - published a very critical op-ed in The Washington Post. What was it about?</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: He essentially is - seems to be carving out a role that two former senators, Jeff Flake of Arizona and Bob Corker of Tennessee, played in the Senate, which was to be Republican Party critics of the president and, really, on a matter - on the matters of character and how the president conducts himself in office. It was a really interesting op-ed. I think it's going to raise a lot of questions about who Mitt Romney wants to be in the Senate and whether he himself may be considering angling to run against the president in 2020.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Interesting. NPR's Sue Davis. Thanks, Sue.</s>SUSAN DAVIS, BYLINE: You're welcome.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: All right. So from tension in Washington to friction with Russia.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. That's where American citizen Paul Whelan is still in custody on suspicion of espionage. And now Paul Whelan's family members are speaking out, coming out against Russia's accusations. Here's Whelan's brother, David Whelan, speaking to Canada's CBC News.</s>DAVID WHELAN: Paul has a law enforcement background. He is a Marine. He has worked in corporate security. And he is very aware of both the rule of law and the risks of traveling in countries that may have risks to travelers.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Also, of course, just last month, a Russian operative was convicted here in the U.S. for trying to influence American policy around the time of the 2016 presidential election.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: NPR national security correspondent Greg Myre is with us now. Good morning, Greg.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Good morning, Noel.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So for the first little while, we didn't know that much about Paul Whelan, but now his family has started talking. What are they saying?</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Well, an interesting story. I mean, he first went to Russia back around 2006. At that time, he was actually deployed with the Marines in Iraq. But he got a two-week break, and he was a single guy, so he chose to go spend some time in Russia, enjoyed it, developed a real affinity for the country. It's clear. He's gone back several times. He was going - went back this time for the wedding of a fellow ex-Marine who was marrying a Russian woman.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: His family got very nervous when he didn't get in contact last Friday, feared the worst over the weekend, learned on Monday that he was, in fact, being held. And so now they're working with the State Department and other U.S. officials to try to figure out what his situation is.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: What do we know about what Paul Whelan currently does for a living? What is this man's job?</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Right. So he's the director of global security for a company called BorgWarner, outside Detroit. It's a big auto supplier. And he has businesses all around the world, but his family is stressing that this trip to Russia was simply a private two-week visit, was not a work-related trip.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Since yesterday, has there been any response from the Russian government and/or from the U.S. government?</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: No, they've been saying very little. Russia first announced his detention a few days ago. The State Department confirms an American is being held but are not saying anything beyond that. Again, the president has often made it - when Americans are being held abroad, he's made it a big deal. He hasn't spoken out yet.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: And we don't know why that is at this point?</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: We don't. We don't. Again, we're not hearing much from either side. Obviously, the case of Maria Butina comes to mind, the Russian woman who pleaded guilty just on December 13. So people are wondering if there is a connection there.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: There's a kind of tit for tat. Greg, we are at a point where there's a lot of tension between the U.S. and Russia. Does this strike you - does this arrest strike you as a blip or as a major development?</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Well, I would see it as part of this major tension. And again, Putin was asked - the Russian president, Vladimir Putin - was asked just on December 20 about the Maria Butina case. He said he was concerned, but he said we're not going to do tit for tat. And yet, eight days later, we see this arrest. So I would - I think the best way to look at it is part of this bigger turmoil we're seeing in the Russia-U.S. relationship.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: NPR's national security correspondent Greg Myre. Thanks, Greg.</s>GREG MYRE, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: All right. So while we've been monitoring shutdowns and showdowns, a group of scientists have been tracking some things going on 4 billion miles away from Earth.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. So just after midnight on New Year's Day, NASA's New Horizons spacecraft zoomed by a celestial object that is nicknamed Ultima Thule. It was going at 32,000 miles per hour, taking pictures as it passed.</s>ALICE BOWMAN: We've just accomplished the most distant flyby. We are ready for Ultima Thule's science transmission at 0200 UTC today, science to help us understand the origins of our solar system.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Scientists obviously very excited. This is the farthest object NASA has ever explored in space, and the scientists plan to take some other high-quality images of the object today.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Marina Koren of The Atlantic was with those scientists on New Year's Eve. She's with us in the studio now. Good morning, Marina.</s>MARINA KOREN: Good morning.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: All right. So what is Ultima Thule, and why were these scientists so amped to see it, to get to it?</s>MARINA KOREN: So Ultima Thule is one of potentially millions of icy objects that orbit way out at the edge of the solar system, well beyond Pluto. And these icy objects are left over from the formation of the solar system 4.6 billion years ago.</s>MARINA KOREN: And so because it's very cold and dark out there, these objects have remained relatively unchanged since then, and that's what's most exciting to these scientists because to visit Ultima Thule means seeing the solar system as it once was and maybe getting some clues about how it came to be. So they were really excited. There was champagne. There were party hats.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: (Laughter) Before this mission, what did the scientists know about Ultima Thule?</s>MARINA KOREN: They knew little, actually. They knew enough about its orbit to know where to go. They suspect - they suspected that Ultima Thule was red in color because it spent its lifetime just being roasted by cosmic radiation. But they didn't know what else they might see, and that's because, from Earth, Ultima Thule looks like a tiny speck of light. You know, before, the flyby, scientists weren't even sure if they were approaching two objects or one.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Wow, so at this point, we have gotten a fuzzy picture. It looks kind of like a snowman. What other information do scientists want to get from it in the next couple days?</s>MARINA KOREN: Right. So in the next few days and weeks, we're going to be seeing more and more high-resolution images of this object. And I think we'll be seeing more surface features of this object. And yeah, I think it's a very exciting time because if the flyby went as intended, if the cameras - and there were three on board, so it took a lot of pictures as it went by - if the cameras got the good shots that the scientists wanted them to get, we'll be seeing the most distant object ever explored by humanity.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: That is incredibly cool. Let me ask you about the New Horizons spacecraft, because this is the craft that originally got us those amazing photos of Pluto. It's quite a superstar, as far as spacecraft are concerned. What's next for it?</s>MARINA KOREN: It is. It is. New Horizons has had quite a trip across the solar system. It left Earth in 2006, and then, as you said, it made the Pluto flyby in 2015, and it produced some really stunning pictures. And so I think right now engineers are going to have to decide whether they have enough time to look at another target, whether they have the right - enough fuel.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: To leave it out there and maybe look at something new and cool. Marina Koren of The Atlantic. Thanks so much.</s>MARINA KOREN: Thank you.

An elephant reaches its trunk out of its pen and steals a woman's purse. In a tug of war, the woman manages to retrieve her phone. The elephant got the purse and the mangoes inside.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Good morning. I'm Steve Inskeep. Everybody knows elephants are cute, but they also want what they want. Video from Sri Lanka shows a woman visiting an elephant rescue center. An elephant reaches its trunk out of its pen, seems to give her a hug. But...</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: (Laughter).</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: ...It's actually deftly stealing her purse. In a tug of war, the woman did manage to retrieve her phone. The elephant got the purse and what it really wanted - the mangoes inside.

U.S. Ambassador to Russia Jon Huntsman visited American Paul Whelan on Wednesday at Moscow's Lefortovo prison. Whelan is being held on suspicion of being a spy.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jon Huntsman, has been allowed to visit the American citizen now detained in Moscow. His name is Paul Whelan. He is a former Marine who was taken into custody last week during what Russia claims was an act of espionage. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says the U.S. is still waiting for details about the charges against him.</s>MIKE POMPEO: We've made clear to the Russians our expectation that we will learn more about the charges and come to understand what it is he's been accused of. And if the detention is not appropriate, we will demand his immediate return.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Joining us now from Moscow, reporter Charles Maynes, who's been covering this. Charles, thanks for being here.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Good to be with you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What can you tell us about this meeting between the U.S. ambassador, Jon Huntsman, and Paul Whelan? What was communicated between the two men? Do we know?</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Well, what we know is from the State Department, actually. They confirmed that Ambassador Huntsman met with Mr. Whelan in Lefortovo Prison. This is a prison in Moscow with a long history of holding alleged spies and political prisoners during the Soviet period. Mr. Huntsman expressed support, offered the embassy's assistance.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: He also spoke by telephone with Mr. Whelan's family. But in the interest of privacy, they're providing no details on the charges or circumstances of the arrest - and, you know, might also point out that there's some real questions as to the delay to access to Mr. Whelan. Of course, he was arrested on December 28. And, usually, you get quicker access to someone like that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Whelan's family rejects this whole thing. They say they don't believe he's a spy. They insist he was in Moscow for a wedding. We're also getting more details about his past, including a complicated history with the U.S. military. What can you tell us?</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: That's right. Yeah. Mr. Whelan's a former Marine. He served two tours in Iraq in 2004 and 2006. The Marine Corps, however, released his service records. And they show that he was convicted in 2008 of a court martial on charges related to larceny and given a bad conduct discharge. After his military career, though, he went into law enforcement.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Mr. Whelan most recently has been working BorgWarner. This is a Michigan-based company that does propulsion systems for car engines. They have offices in Europe, in China, through Asia but not in Russia. But that said, Mr. Whelan actually has traveled to Russia quite frequently, according to his family, since about 2007. And, of course, they say, as you note, he was in town for a wedding at the time of his arrest.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is the Russian government staying sort of hush-hush on this or are they out there trying to frame their own version of events?</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: They are pretty quiet on it, but I think for a good reason. It's the holidays here. So this is sort of the grand national slumber after New Year's. Things really don't open up for a few days still. We did, however, see a report in the Russian media. This is from Rosbalt. This is an independent newspaper that's quite well-sourced within the FSB. And they, today, issued a story that provided some details of Mr. Whelan's arrest. Again, it's their version, citing FSB sources.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: But they claim that the - he was caught essentially receiving a flash drive with - it contained names of Russian intelligence agents in his Metropol hotel room. That's in downtown Moscow. The problem is that skeptics feel that - look, it was a flash drive in 2019. You know, did Mr. Whelan even know what was on it? And the whole thing seems kind of very made-for-TV. So I think we're waiting for that to appear on state television here.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. Reporter Charles Maynes with the latest there in Moscow. Thanks so much.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Thank you.

New members of the House are sworn in. Border security remains a stumbling block to re-opening the government. And, the U.S. ambassador to Russia meets with the man Russia accuses of espionage.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The power dynamic in Washington shifts today. A new Congress is sworn in, Democrats take control, and a familiar face becomes the new speaker of the House.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: That's right. There was doubt and debate within the Democratic Party, but former Speaker Nancy Pelosi is expected to become House speaker once again. She's the only woman to have held that position, from 2007 to 2011, and the first thing on her agenda will be to introduce legislation to end this partial government shutdown. But Pelosi has made it clear that when it comes to the president's border wall funding, she is not budging.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're joined in the studio by NPR congressional reporter Kelsey Snell.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Good morning, Kelsey.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Hey. Good morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So we're going to get to the shutdown and the wall. But first, I want to talk about what Nancy Pelosi has actually already done - even before assuming the speakership. She's made some rule changes. What can you tell us?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Yeah. So Democrats plan to get all of these new rules in place as actually one of their very first orders of business. It's all part of this push that they're making to make government work better. They say that they want to kind of overhaul the ethics rules for Congress so that people can have more trust in the people who make the laws, something that a lot of people don't have right now (laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. So what rules are going to make us do that?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Yeah. So they hope to gain some trust by creating a kind of stark comparison between Republicans and Trump. And a big part of that is they want to make it easier to increase the debt limit. Now, you know we have had this fight over and over, it seems like, where there's a question about whether or not the government is actually going to make payments on debt that it already has.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Their new rule would make it so that it automatically happens when they pass a budget. So that's the big first one that will probably impact people's lives the most. It will also make it harder for them to kick out a speaker of the House. And they want to make sure that no more members or staff can serve on corporate boards.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: They think that would kind of separate Congress from private industry a little bit better. And they would extend bans on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity and allow religious headwear to be worn on the floor of the House. That's for - largely to accommodate a request from Ilhan Omar, who is a representative who will be sworn in from Minnesota.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Who covers, yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So let's talk about the shutdown...</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...'Cause this really is the business at hand.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: (Laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: She's going to make all these rule changes, which is all fine and good. But there is a partial government shutdown. And she is going to try - is it an earnest effort to try to get the government to reopen with this legislation?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Well, she referred to it as a Republican way to reopen the government. Basically, she wants to give Republicans the option of saying - hey, we're going to pay for six of the seven parts of the government that are closed down right now, let them be opened, fund them for the rest of the year...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Things that don't have anything to do with border security.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Right. And leave the border security fight to go on for just about another month - give them one month to work out the Department of Homeland Security. But the president has basically already said that he's not interested in doing that. And you know, the Republicans in the Senate say they don't want to vote on anything that doesn't have the president's support. So it may not go much further than the vote today.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. One other story I want to ask you about - The New York Times published a piece yesterday about the presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders in 2016, saying that there were these claims of sexual harassment, pay disparity by staffers. What are you learning about this?</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Well, the complaints were, in particular, made by female staffers who talked about mistreatment, sexual harassment and being paid much less than their male counterparts. And the Sanders campaign is not denying any of this. They are talking about how the campaign grew too fast. And they released a statement saying that harassment and discrimination are not tolerated by Bernie Sanders himself and that they took some steps in 2016 to fix the problems.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: But they're also guaranteeing that anything going forward, whether it's a new campaign or just his work in the Senate, that there will be efforts to make sure that there is more parity between men and women and make sure that there is no discrimination of any kind.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But he hasn't said, one way or the other, if he's going to run for president...</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: He has not. That was not part of the statement (laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. NPR's Kelsey Snell.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks so much, Kelsey.</s>KELSEY SNELL, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. So we have been talking about this. The whole reason for the shutdown is the fight over the border wall.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Yeah. There was this meeting between President Trump and congressional leaders yesterday, but there was no progress. The president wants a wall funded, and Democrats say no. The thing that has gotten lost in this debate is whether or not a wall could actually keep migrants out of this country.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. And we have talked about this before, but it is worth reminding all of us exactly what is happening on the border, what's the state of the actual barrier there and what would be effective. So no other person can better serve us in this moment than NPR correspondent John Burnett on the line from Texas, who has spent...</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Hi, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...His fair share at the border.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, John.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So even as recent as yesterday, President Trump tweeted that the wall's already being built. What is there now?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Well, when the president talks about the urgency of a border wall, remember that a third of the border is already covered by some sort of wall. You've got 700 miles of barriers down here. There are vehicle barriers in the remote areas of the west desert and pedestrian fencing. They range from chain-link fences that are easy to cut to these 12- to 18-foot-tall iron bollard fences. You can see through them, and they're very hard to get over. And that's the standard construction for the replacement fencing now.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Remember, most of the big border cities are already walled off, like San Diego and El Paso and Brownsville. These were the most popular crossing points because undocumented immigrants could blend in with the urban population. And Customs and Border Protection uses all kinds of other technology. They've got video cameras mounted on poles that are monitored remotely, sensors buried in the ground and embedded in the walls, these big spy blimps tethered in the sky that look into Mexico and, of course, some 16,000 agents along the southern border that are watching and tracking.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But even Democrats agree that border security needs to be improved. So clearly, even all that technology isn't passing muster. It's not securing the border to the level that Democrats and Republicans would like to see.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Well, remember that illegal immigration is still down 80 percent from its peak in 2000. And there are just fewer and fewer incidents of chasing single males through the brush, which is what, you know, it used to be all about. What we're seeing now is an uptick of these families and children that are arriving from Central America asking for asylum.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: And the thing is that most people who cross illegally, Rachel, are apprehended not trying to evade the Border Patrol. They're looking for these green-suited agents. And in the Rio Grande Valley, the wall is not even on the river. It can be a half mile inland, so they're already in the United States before they even see the wall.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So let's get back to this claim. The president keeps insisting that the wall, meaning his wall that he wants - the big physical barrier to run the extent...</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...That it's already being built. Is that true?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Well, what's under construction mostly is the replacement. And in San Diego, you see it. They're replacing these old Vietnam-era landing mats with these big steel bollards. Same thing in El Paso, they're replacing chain link fencing. There are 33 new miles of border fencing that are being built down in the Rio Grande Valley, though.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So there are parts of the border, you and I both know, that natural terrain is just so treacherous, really...</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...It would make it impossible to build a wall in some of the areas. Right?</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: Right. And in the flat areas, that's where it's practical. But many border agents will tell you that a wall is just not necessary or feasible in these remote mountainous areas. The terrain is its own deterrent, like the Chisos Mountains in the Big Bend area of far West Texas and the San Ysidro Mountains east of San Diego. It's the terrain that slows people down, and that enables agents to apprehend them.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. NPR's John Burnett for us in Texas.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks so much, John.</s>JOHN BURNETT, BYLINE: You bet.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. We're going to turn now to Russia, where American officials are trying to figure out why a U.S. citizen was detained there last week.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Russia says Paul Whelan was detained during, quote, "an act of espionage." Whelan's family says absolutely not. He was in Russia for a wedding. The U.S. ambassador to Russia visited Whelan yesterday for the first time. And meanwhile, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that American diplomats are waiting for more answers from their Russian counterparts.</s>MIKE POMPEO: We've made clear to the Russians our expectation that we will learn more about the charges and come to understand what it is he's been accused of. And if the detention is not appropriate, we will demand his immediate return.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. We've got Moscow reporter Charles Maynes on the line with us to talk about this.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, Charles.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Good to be with you. Hi.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What was communicated in that meeting between U.S. Ambassador Huntsman and Paul Whelan? Do we know?</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Well, we don't have too much. So the State Department released a statement that said that U.S. Ambassador Jon Huntsman had visited with Mr. Whelan in Lefortovo Prison. This is a czarist-era prison with a long history for holding alleged spies and political prisoners in Russia. Mr. Huntsman had expressed support, offered the embassy's assistance - pretty standard stuff. He'd also spoken by phone with Mr. Whelan's family. But in the interest of privacy, they weren't providing any more details on the charges or the circumstances of the arrest, which of course are of great interest.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. But there are more details coming to light about Paul Whelan and, in particular, his tenure as a Marine. Right? What can you tell us about that?</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Well, right. We know he was a former Marine. He served two tours in Iraq back in 2004, 2006. The Marine Corps, however, released Whelan's service record. And that showed he was convicted in 2008 of a court-martial on charges related to larceny, given a bad-conduct discharge. But his career from there - he goes on to work for law enforcement for a while.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: He works currently for BorgWarner. This is a Michigan-based company. It deals with propulsion engines, where Mr. Whelan is head of global security. Now, BorgWarner has offices in Europe, in China but not in Russia. That said, Mr. Whelan has traveled to Russia frequently since 2007. And as you noted, his family says he was in town for a wedding.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So I mean, what are you hearing from people there? Are people - are Russians talking about this? Are officials there that you've been able to speak with discussing this in terms of a possible prisoner swap with Maria Butina, the Russian agent who was arrested and charged here in the U.S.?</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Well, first of all, it's the middle of the kind of New Year's holidays here, so everything's shut down. But we have kind of a blockbuster story that appeared in the Russian press today, in Rosbalt. This is a Russian online newspaper that's pretty well-sourced with the security services. And they have what they claim are the first details of Whelan's arrest. They say that Mr. Whelan was caught receiving a flash drive naming Russian intelligence agents in the Metropol hotel. This was within this hotel room where he was staying for this apparent wedding.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: And certainly, skeptics here in Moscow are discussing the circumstances of this. I mean, the idea of a flash drive in 2019 sounds a bit strange. Did Mr. Whelan even know what was on that flash drive? So there are some who suggest here that it was some kind of setup in a very made-for-TV moment. So essentially, wait for this video to be released on state television here in Moscow.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah, interesting that Russia is already spinning out this narrative.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Reporter Charles Maynes in Moscow, thank you so much. We appreciate it.</s>CHARLES MAYNES, BYLINE: Thank you.

Noel King talks with New York Times reporter Howard Megdal about WNBA star Kristi Toliver, who's also an assistant NBA coach — she's being paid a fraction of the salary of other assistant coaches.

NOEL KING, HOST: When Kristi Toliver was hired as an assistant coach by the Washington Wizards, she was just 1 of 3 active women coaches in the NBA. Coaching was a career goal for Toliver. She's also a WNBA star. She plays point guard for the Washington Mystics. But a problem emerged. If she wanted to coach in the NBA, she'd need to accept a tiny salary - $10,000 a year. Now, NBA assistant coaches typically make $100,000 a year or more. Some make over a million.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Howard Megdal broke this story for The New York Times. He's with me via Skype to explain why it is that a talented female coach is earning peanuts coaching men in the NBA. Good morning, Howard.</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: Good morning.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So Kristi Toliver is a player and a coach. As a player, she makes a normal WNBA salary. As a coach, she's earning next to nothing - $10,000 a year. How did that happen?</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: Well, it happened, in part, because progress has exceeded what the collective bargaining agreement between the players and the WNBA allow for. So the last collective bargaining agreement called for players to be able to be paid up to $50,000 as a team for offseason work. Now, that offseason work, by definition, did not include coaching because at that time, there were not coaches who were WNBA players.</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: So she came up against a very simple issue, which is that $50,000 was the max that could be paid to all the players for offseason work, and 40,000 of that had already been promised to her Mystics teammate Elena Delle Donne.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: So we've got a talented woman coach, and she can't make more than $10,000 a year. Did Kristi Toliver or the Wizards try to fight this? Because, as you lay out in your story, it is really galling. It just seems wildly unfair.</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: And that is precisely it. It is galling and unfair. And, yes, they both tried to fight it. And the Wizards, to their credit, tried to do so as well.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: In your piece, you spoke to Kristi Toliver, and she seemed frustrated, but she also seemed pretty optimistic. What was your impression of her as a player, as a coach, as a person?</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: I've covered Kristi for a long time. She's one of the brightest people that you're going to meet in any profession. So I wasn't surprised about it. I also think there's been an ethos in women's basketball, and really women's sports as a whole, that there's an effort to trailblaze today so that tomorrow's battles are a little bit easier to fight or don't even have to be fought at all. And I think that may play a part in it.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Even though Kristi Toliver is only one person in this situation, this is likely to come up in a new contract negotiation - that this is a very unfair set of circumstances?</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: It will definitely come up. The players association is very committed to this. And for the league, it's an opportunity to have a significant number of talented basketball minds coach, as well. So it's an extra influx of talent. So it really is something that both sides have a financial interest in getting solved.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Could this have happened with a male player who also wanted to coach? Say you've got a talented point guard, and he says, in the offseason, I want to coach a women's team. Would he be in the same situation, where there is a cap on how much he could be paid as a coach?</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: The short answer is nothing like that would occur. The cap is much higher than $50,000 on the men's side. The money is significantly different as a whole in the NBA. And as a result, it simply wouldn't be something that would be punitive for an NBA player who is tempted to do that.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Howard Megdal is the editor of High Post Hoops, which is a site dedicated to women's basketball, and he broke this story about Kristi Toliver in The New York Times. Thanks, Howard.</s>HOWARD MEGDAL: Thank you.

The U.S. faces a policy dilemma in Afghanistan: stay or withdraw. Foreign policy analyst Robert Kaplan tells Noel King that perfectly illustrates a change to America's role around the world.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Last week came word that U.S. Army Chief of Staff Mark Milley had made a surprise trip to Kabul to meet with Afghan President Ashraf Ghani. Milley is President Trump's choice to be the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The visit comes after the announcement in December that President Trump wants to cut U.S. troops in Afghanistan by half, from about 14,000 down to 7,000. Veteran foreign policy analyst Robert Kaplan this week wrote a New York Times op-ed provocatively titled "Time To Get Out Of Afghanistan." Kaplan spoke with Noel King.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: What exactly are you arguing here?</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: What I'm arguing is a number of things. We've been in Afghanistan for 17 years. What we've learned over the years in two decades is the American military can do a lot of wonderful things. But one thing it can not do is fix complex Islamic societies on the ground. And what I'm arguing is that there's really no possibility of a decisive victory over the Taliban after 17 years.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: Do you think there's a realistic scenario by which Afghanistan's democratically elected central government survives if the U.S. withdraws totally?</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: I'm having trouble seeing it, frankly. The best-case, realist scenario is a kind of coalition regime between the Taliban and the democratic government that allows various warlord and tribal factions throughout the country to essentially govern on their own.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: Remember, from the 1950s to the early 1970s when Afghanistan was relatively stable, even then the king in Kabul, who left in 1973, and the subsequent governments in Kabul did not govern the hinterlands. They essentially governed what's called the ring road, connecting the major cities in the country - Mazar-i-Sharif in the north, Herat in the West, Kandahar in the south and of course Kabul in the east and Jalalabad in the east.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: You are saying that there will be some pain in Afghanistan if the U.S. withdraws. The government will fall apart.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: It might fall apart. It very well might. But I believe it might fall apart whether we're there for another nine months or another five years. We've given this 17 years. As I wrote in my piece, we made big mistakes along the way. It did not have to turn out this way. No place is hopeless, but here is where we are now.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: People who want us to stay in Afghanistan, similarly to people who are upset about the pullout of U.S. troops in Syria, say, you know, the U.S. is assuming a different role in the world if it does these things; it is no longer a superpower; it is no longer a leading force; it'll be replaced by Russia; it'll be replaced by China; it'll be replaced by Iran. What do you think about that? Are you arguing fundamentally for the United States to see itself as or to play a different role in the world?</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: No, I disagree with that point of view. I believe precisely for the United States to challenge China throughout Eurasia in the Indian Ocean, for the United States to stand up to Russia in the Baltic Sea - the Black Sea in Europe. It is necessary for the United States to find a responsible way to get its significant number of ground forces out of the Middle East and to deal with the Middle East through air and naval and cyber assets because ground troops are not like naval or air forces. They're in a place. They're susceptible to quagmire. They eat up large amounts of resources in Afghanistan. It's over $40 billion a year.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: I don't know what the figure is in Syria, and we could better spend that money building dual-use ports, LNG facilities in Vietnam and Malaysia and the Philippines to compete with China's Belt and Road project, both maritime and on land. We've got to make some choices. We've got to pick some losers. And eventually, if the United States is going to peacefully compete with China for influence throughout Eurasia, it's going to have to deal with the Middle East in a far more economical way.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: You wrote something interesting in your op-ed. You wrote, (reading) the Chinese, Pakistanis, Russians, Indians and Iranians, meanwhile, may all be benefiting more from America's military operations in Afghanistan than the United States is.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: Yeah. Let me unpack this. The Chinese and the Pakistanis are spending $45 billion as we speak - 46 billion to build roads, railways and pipelines from Western China south through Pakistan all the way to the Indian Ocean port at Qatar. Meanwhile, the Indians and the Iranians are starting to build another pathway of roads, railway and pipelines from Central Asia south to the Iranian port of Chabahar.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: So it's two competing pipelines and roads being built. One to the east of Afghanistan, one to the west, both eventually with spur lines that will connect into Afghanistan. And precisely because the U.S. ground presence and air presence - there may be just enough stability in Afghanistan to let these projects get started.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: So in effect, indirectly, the United States' presence in Afghanistan is aiding the building of China's Belt and Road Initiative and Iran and India's competing initiative.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: You're not arguing that the United States should leave Afghanistan so that China and Iran's economic plans will end up a mess?</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: Absolutely not. I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that our continued presence is helping them. So unless we see an end to the tunnel, a stable democracy that we can leave behind or even a stable enlightened authoritarian regime that we could leave behind, like something we have in Oman or Morocco or Jordan - unless we can see some light at the end of the tunnel, then, you know, the mission, given that it costs $45 billion a year, is becoming pointless.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: Robert D. Kaplan is a veteran foreign policy analyst and author. He's a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security and a senior adviser at the Eurasia Group. Thank you, sir.</s>ROBERT KAPLAN: Thank you.

The NFL playoffs begin this weekend and, like always, there's plenty of drama and intrigue both on the football field and off. Which teams will make it a step closer to the Super Bowl?

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: You got to hand it to the NFL. The regular season began four months ago, immersed in controversy over player protests and declining TV ratings. And now here we are, the day before the playoffs start, with ratings back up and a lot of excitement about a postseason with, arguably, no clear favorites. Our co-host, Noel King, spoke with NPR sports correspondent Tom Goldman to give us a preview of what's to come this playoff season.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: So before we get to this weekend's games, what is behind the jump in TV ratings? What happened?</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Well, first, I will tell you what the ratings jump is. It's a 5 percent climb compared to last season. Since this season started, 46 of the top 50 rated TV broadcasts were NFL games. And then the average number of viewers streaming NFL games was up a whopping 86 percent.</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Now, Noel, there are going to be some who say it's because the players have stopped protesting, or, at least, TV cameras are not showing them. But that's perhaps giving too much significance to the protests causing ratings declines the previous couple of years. Really, the main reason ratings are back up is that the games have been great - tons of passing and scoring this season. There were a record number of touchdowns, a record number of games decided by three or fewer points, and NFL fans like that.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: So is this kind of exciting football with all the scoring going to continue on into the postseason?</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Probably not.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: (Laughter) That's a heartbreak.</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Yeah, really. Sorry to let you down. In fact, offense did die down late in the season. Plus, Noel, as you well know, defense wins championships. And, in the playoffs, teams tend to slow things down. They play more conservatively, and a good defense becomes even more important.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: Getting boring, y'all.</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: (Laughter) Not boring. A lot of people love defense.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: (Laughter).</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: But those are the weirdos. OK (laughter).</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: So let's talk about this weekend's wild-card round of the playoffs. These are the teams that are good enough to qualify for the postseason but not the teams with the best records who got the byes in this round.</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Right.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: Which games do you - are you looking forward to most this weekend?</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Let's break it down into Saturday and Sunday. I'm calling tomorrow comeback Saturday. All four teams playing - Indianapolis, Houston, Seattle, Dallas - all four had rough starts and turned their seasons around, none more dramatically than Indianapolis. The Colts began the season losing five of their first six games. Quarterback Andrew Luck had missed the entire 2017 season because of a hurt throwing shoulder. And there were doubts he could lead them out of the early season hole. But he did it, and the Colts look really good right now.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: All right. So that's Saturday. What about Sunday?</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Sunday, you have Baltimore hosting the LA Chargers - no longer the San Diego Chargers. Now, Baltimore will start a 21-year-old rookie quarterback, Lamar Jackson. He's the youngest quarterback ever to start a playoff game. He's a dynamic player, fantastic runner, not as great of a passer yet. The Ravens also have the best defense in the NFL, and they're going against a very good Chargers team led by veteran quarterback Philip Rivers. A couple of weeks ago, these two teams played, and Baltimore's defense dominated. It should be an interesting rematch.</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: Then you've got defending champion Philadelphia against the Chicago Bears with their great defense. Now, Philly made it to the playoffs on the last day of the regular season behind backup quarterback Nick Foles, who, for a second straight year, has taken over after Philadelphia's starting quarterback was injured. Now, last season, all Foles did was lead the Eagles to the Super Bowl title. This season, he's led Philly to three straight wins, a playoff spot. And, Noel, eternally pessimistic Eagles fans are feeling the magic again.</s>NOEL KING, BYLINE: NPR's Tom Goldman previewing the NFL playoffs. Thanks, Tom.</s>TOM GOLDMAN, BYLINE: You're welcome.

An Israeli anti-settlement group says plans for more homes on occupied territory in the West Bank have increased dramatically during the Trump administration compared to the Obama administration.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Israel says it plans to build thousands of new homes for Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank. Most countries denounce Israeli settlements, and the U.N. Security Council disapproves. The settlements are spread across land that Palestinians demand for their own state. And a watchdog group says there's been a, quote, "building frenzy in the settlements since President Trump took office." NPR's Daniel Estrin has been visiting those areas. He's on the line. Hi there, Daniel.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Hi, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Where have you been?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Well, this morning I was in a small Palestinian village. It's called Nahalin, and it's a really good place to see how Palestinians view the settlements being built or the settlement homes being built. And we saw that this morning. Across the valley is Beitar Illit. It's one of the biggest Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and it's growing. We saw the tractors. We heard the sounds of piercing the bedrock. They're building a new neighborhood on the edge of the settlement. And it's just one of three settlements that surround the village where Israel last week announced that it's planning new housing.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, let's talk about that new housing. How big are these construction plans?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Israel says it's building more than 2,000 new homes in existing settlements. And Peace Now, the anti-settlement watchdog group you spoke about, says, we can expect to see some of this construction starting as early as in a year. And what they say is - what's happening is very clear. They say since Trump became president, Israel has advanced big construction plans in the settlements. And that's a big difference from the last years of the Obama administration.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Although, we should note, they built settlements under President Obama - or not under but during the administration of President Obama. They built settlements under the administration of President Trump. It sounds like the Israeli government attitude here is to proceed regardless.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: That's true. And even the building that I saw today across the valley are homes that were approved, assumably, under the Obama administration. It takes some years before you actually see groundbreaking. But yes, the idea here, especially among the settler community, is they feel that under Trump - you know, what was a yellow light to build under Obama is now a very big green light.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Why is this significant in the long term, Daniel?</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Well, settlements, Steve, are really at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As you said, they're spread out across the West Bank. That is where Palestinians live. It's where Palestinians want to create their own independent state. And around the world, most countries want to see Israel give up West Bank land so Palestinians can have their own state there. And they say this is really the only way that can be - there can be a solution to the conflict. And the more Israel builds up its settlements, the more entrenched Israel becomes there.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And we should note, I suppose, the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has been talking about granting the Palestinians something less than a state at this point.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Yes. He's been very - he hasn't - he says he won't define it as a state. You know, that's the term that he may have talked about in the past. But he says he wants Palestinians at some point in the future to be able to control their own lives. But he won't call it a state. He said state-minus, even.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: OK. Daniel, thanks for the update - really appreciate it.</s>DANIEL ESTRIN, BYLINE: Thank you, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's NPR's Daniel Estrin, who's been traveling on the West Bank.

Rachel Martin talks to Scott Feinberg of The Hollywood Reporter about the history and reputation of the Golden Globe Awards ahead of this Sunday's 76th annual ceremony.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Golden Globes are this Sunday. The awards show recognizes the best of the year in film and television. And over the last few decades, the Globes has developed a reputation as the weirder, livelier kid brother to Hollywood's flagship ceremonies, like the Emmys and the Academy Awards. Here to talk about the Globes, Scott Feinberg of The Hollywood</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Reporter. Hey, Scott.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: Thanks for having me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You excited?</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: You know, it's the first big one of the season.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It is, isn't it?</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: It is exciting, absolutely.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I love an awards show. But I have to admit, I hadn't thought about this until we decided to do this story. I don't really know what the Golden Globes are about. I mean, I...</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: (Laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Where did these awards even come from?</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: The thing is the Oscars were sort of the original baby about 91 years ago. And ever since then, other people have been trying to hop on the train and ride the coattails of that. And so the Golden Globes were one of the earlier ones to do that. They're in their 76th year. And they are put on by a group called the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, which sounds very impressive.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: And like the Academy, you kind of think this is a massive thing. But it's actually a group of only about 90 journalists, who write for outlets based around the world. And so the joke each year at the Golden Globes is that these are a lot of things that people these days don't like - Hollywood, foreigners...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right (laughter).</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: ...And the press. So...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yay.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: But...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But it's also - it's fun because it's not just about the movies. So much great entertainment these days is in the form of television or limited series anyway. But talk a little bit about how the Globes approaches their categorization because it's different.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: Yeah. It's very different than the Oscars or most other award shows. In this case, you have one of the few times when both film and TV talent - both in the same room, being honored for the two different media. And the other thing that people love about it is that there is flowing booze and, to some degree, food. But nobody's really - wants to be seen on camera eating, but drinking is no problem.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: And so it creates a looser atmosphere. Plus, people still sort of deep down feel that the Oscar's the big kahuna at the end of the day. So whatever happens here, they can have a good time. And it leads to some memorable moments.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right. And it's always fun to see your favorite movie star talking to your favorite, like, sitcom star. And you're like...</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: Exactly.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Oh, they're friends. I knew they'd be friends.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: (Laughter) Exactly.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do the Globes end up making the same calls as the Oscars or the other award shows?</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: They sometimes do. But it's very interesting because there isn't a direct reason why that would be the case. The Academy is a group of roughly 9,000 people who actually work on making movies. And then here, you've got a group of 90 people who report on movies.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: And I think the Globes do sometimes influence the Academy in the sense that the Golden Globes are going to take place on January 6. And then Oscar nomination voting starts January 7 and runs for a week after that. And so sometimes, the picks of the Globes might steer Academy members towards certain movies that they hadn't already checked out or kind of tipped them in one direction or another. But there's no direct correlation.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There's other weirdness though, too. Right? There's a pageant for the children of celebrities.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: (Laughter) Well, they - it used to be less politically correct. And up until maybe a year or two ago, I think they called it Miss Golden Globe. And it was usually the daughter of a celebrity - you know, Jamie Foxx or Sylvester Stallone or somebody...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Right, Sylvester Stallone.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: Yes (laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I think both his daughters one.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: He had three, I think. But first of all, the origin of it might have been to help attract stars to show up at the Golden Globes. Well, you honor their kids, they've got to show up. And there were a number of years when they were sort of a little shady. I mean, they were, actually, kicked off the air for a few years because of some strange, questionable voting practices.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: It was almost like if you show up at the Golden Globes, you're going to get a Golden Globe. Now they've tried to - and I think quite successfully - regain a little bit of credibility, respectability. They have their own accounting firm that supposedly oversees the results to make sure they're kosher. And yeah, it's it's own thing.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I'm going to watch. You've convinced me. Although, it didn't take much. Scott Feinberg of The Hollywood Reporter, thanks so much. We appreciate it.</s>SCOTT FEINBERG: My pleasure.

Senegal's exquisite gold jewelry — and the complicated history of the women who wore it — are getting their due at an exhibit at the Smithsonian's Museum of African Art.

NOEL KING, HOST: For hundreds of years, goldsmiths in Senegal have been crafting some of the world's most intricate jewelry. But outside of Senegal, their artistic tradition has largely gone unnoticed. Now the Smithsonian's National Museum of African Art in Washington, D.C., is showcasing the jewelry. Here's NPR's Nurith Aizenman.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: I'm at the exhibit, and I spot Marian Ashby Johnson. She's peering into a glass case containing an enormous necklace, three pendants of elaborately layered gold.</s>MARIAN ASHBY JOHNSON: I'm still admiring my own pieces of jewelry - bring back so many memories.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: They begin in 1963, when Johnson joined her husband on a work trip to Senegal's capital, Dakar. Walking the streets, she noticed all these hole-in-the-wall workshops where artisans were crafting gold jewelry unlike anything she'd ever seen. It was made from filigree.</s>MARIAN ASHBY JOHNSON: Thread of gold. That's what it is.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: A gold wire that's impossibly thin, which they twist and layer into these dense yet astonishingly delicate lace-like forms. The technique dates as far back as the 12th century in Senegal, but Johnson soon realized goldsmiths were melting down many of the older pieces to make modern designs. She decided to buy up as many as she could.</s>MARIAN ASHBY JOHNSON: I realized I should do this now or it wouldn't be done at all.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Some items she couldn't afford. She'd watch as exquisite designs were destroyed right in front of her.</s>MARIAN ASHBY JOHNSON: Some of them, I found copies of them later. But in many cases, they were gone. I never found them again.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Still, Johnson ultimately managed to amass more than 250 pieces, the best of which have formed the core of this Smithsonian exhibit. Amanda Maples, the curator, says she also wanted to tell the story of the women who've been wearing this jewelry for hundreds of years, including a class of powerful women whose influence still reverberates through Senegalese culture.</s>AMANDA MAPLES: These women known as signares, which are around in the 18th and 19th century.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: The signares were mixed-race descendants of European merchants and high-status Senegalese Wolof women. By the 1700s, many of them had emerged as independent businesswomen in their own right. The typical signare might own ships, manage trade networks, employ men.</s>AMANDA MAPLES: She can speak several different languages, European and Wolof.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Maples says she'd be renowned for her patronage of musicians, her glittering dinner parties and, most of all, her opulent fashions.</s>AMANDA MAPLES: They were thought of as these women that had the most voluminous cloth ensembles, really bright, huge gold jewelry. I mean, they had the biggest gold jewelry. And they would parade through town so people could see how much wealth they had and how successful they were.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Oumou Sy is a top fashion designer from Senegal. The Smithsonian commissioned her to recreate a signare's outfit.</s>OUMOU SY: (Speaking French).</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: "A head wrap in a conical sugarloaf shape, a gown of sumptuous fabric with huge, puffed sleeves. And, of course..."</s>OUMOU SY: (Speaking French).</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: "...Gold filigree - necklaces, earrings, bangles, toe rings." And yet there's an ugly side to the singares' story. Hudita Nura Mustafa is an anthropologist who's studied the signares' influence in current Senegalese culture.</s>HUDITA NURA MUSTAFA: This wealth and power and beauty and influence was gained through, perhaps, morally ambiguous methods.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Mustafa notes that the signares generally built their wealth through quasi-marriages with European traders, many of whom made their money either directly or indirectly through the transatlantic slave trade. The signares themselves also owned slaves. But Mustafa says today's Senegalese are also mindful that these were African women who found a way to thrive at a time of European encroachment.</s>HUDITA NURA MUSTAFA: They are recognized and held up as icons of a negotiation of being able to bridge and balance many worlds.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Hilary Jones is a professor at Florida International University who's written a history of mixed-race peoples in Senegal, and she says for modern women in Senegal...</s>HILARY JONES: You know, what they see are women who were incredibly successful, who created a kind of space for themselves against all odds.</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: Oumou Sy, the fashion designer, says you can see the signares' influence in the way modern Senegalese women use fashion to project dignity and self-assurance. It's an attitude so celebrated in Senegal, it has a name, sanse.</s>OUMOU SY: (Speaking French).</s>NURITH AIZENMAN, BYLINE: "Sanse means to dare," says Sy, "to present yourself in your finest without fear." Nurith Aizenman, NPR News.

The Ghraoui chocolate shop in Damascus was a place fit for queens — literally. But in 2015, the family that owned it moved from war-torn Syria to Hungary, which isn't known for welcoming refugees.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Syria's war has devastated so many lives, uprooted so many families and businesses for that matter, including one of Syria's oldest chocolate makers, a company called Ghraoui - a brand synonymous in the Arab world with something special, a gift of handmade chocolate or fragrant candied fruit. Now this company has reopened in a country that hasn't been so welcoming to immigrants. Joanna Kakissis has the story from Budapest.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Andrassy Avenue in Budapest is lined with luxury boutiques representing the finest names in Europe. The name Ghraoui stands out. This boutique's from Syria. Inside, there are sculpted walls and ceiling murals designed by the same man who crafted Cartier jewelry shops. But the jewels inside the glass cases here are handmade, hand-painted chocolates. Noemi Czinkoczky wears plastic gloves to select them for curious Hungarians.</s>NOEMI CZINKOCZKY: Yeah. And they ask, like, what makes this chocolate special? And so we tell them how much effort goes into each piece of chocolate.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: She does not have to brief tourists from the Middle East.</s>NOEMI CZINKOCZKY: People recognize the name. Like, they just come in and, oh, my God, is this Ghraoui - the Ghraoui? Like - and we say, yes, the Ghraoui, that one that you know from before.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Bassam Ghraoui, who ran the company, came from one of Syria's oldest merchant families. He wore tailored suits and loved classical music. He named one chocolate after an opera by composer Franz Liszt.</s>UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: (Singing in foreign language).</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: And he supplied chocolate to the Queen of England. His wife, Rania, says he believed in his chocolate.</s>RANIA GHRAOUI: That was amazing me that every time he wanted to taste his own chocolate, he has this spark in his eyes and he look at it as if he's seeing it the first time. And then he's so happy.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: But war forced the Ghraoui family out of Syria.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: R. GHRAOUI: You know, you don't really leave your country. You take it with you - the smell, the memory, everything.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Roses from Damascus, pistachios from Aleppo, apricots from Ghouta - here's Bassam talking with a Chinese news network.</s>RANIA GHRAOUI: You need very good machines. But you need, really, people who is in love with the art of making chocolate.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: He flew many of his staff from Syria with him to Budapest. They reopened their factory in Hungary, where they could afford real estate and labor costs in Europe.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Hungary was not kind to Syrian refugees walking through Europe in 2015. Hungarian police attacked them with batons and water cannons at the border.</s>PRIME MINISTER VIKTOR ORBAN: (Speaking Hungarian).</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Prime Minister Viktor Orban has repeatedly declared that Hungary is not a nation for immigrants, but his administration welcomed the Ghraouis. They had money. Bassam Ghraoui invested in Hungary and made this promotional video celebrating his company's relaunch there.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: B. GHRAOUI: We are looking to build a beautiful presence in Hungary and to put Hungary on the chocolate map of exporting high-quality chocolate.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Then just as the company was taking off again, he was diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer. He died in May. His wife Rania now finds solace in the Budapest boutique they built together.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: R. GHRAOUI: It make me feel that I'm with him. And it make me closer to him, much closer to him. And this is the only way for me.</s>JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Her eyes filled with tears, but she wiped them away. There's work to do. The shop is full. And Syria's legendary chocolatier is expanding to Paris. For NPR News, I'm Joanna Kakissis in Budapest.

The government shutdown enters its 10th day. Volunteers in El Paso, Texas, staff pop-up medical clinics to screen migrant children at the border. Ballots are counted in Congo's presidential election.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: How do Congress and the president find their way out of a partial government shutdown?</s>NOEL KING, HOST: If you're just catching up after a few days off, the news of the shutdown is the same as when you left. Today is a work day for many people but not for hundreds of thousands of federal employees. President Trump demanded funding for a border wall. He wants it attached to an otherwise routine spending bill.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: In the last days of the fully Republican Congress, the House and Senate passed different measures. Now President Trump has been talking with some Republicans, but it's not clear what he's willing to offer Democrats who are about to take over the House.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Scott Horsley covers the White House and has been covering this story of course. Good morning, Scott.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good morning, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Anybody have any ideas how to get out of this?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: (Laughter) They're looking around. You know, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina had lunch with the president yesterday and floated this idea of perhaps swapping the billions of dollars in wall funding that the president wants for a reprieve for the so-called DREAMers - that is, young people who were brought to the country as children and were living in the country illegally - and others who've been living here on a temporary status. Worth noting, though, you know, the president had a deal like that earlier in the year that would have included a lot more wall funding.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Yeah.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And it was blown up by some of the hard-liners within the White House.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And so it was the president who turned down that deal before and the president who would need to sign on this time. Is there any indication the Democrats would still take that deal, Scott?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Democrats seem to be holding a firm line. They're saying, we're not interested in funding your wall. And of course their leverage will only increase later this week. Up until now, Democrats have really only had veto power to block legislation in the Senate. But come Thursday, they will control the House.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Scott, I just want to make sure I understand the stakes here as hundreds of thousands of federal workers remain off the job and some agencies remain partially closed. The president originally demanded a wall across the entire border, has more recently said it's OK to have a wall across most of the border. And even more recently, he's changed his images of the wall to make it a fence. So he wants a fence over lots of the border. And there's already fence over lots of the border. Are we - is this debate actually getting smaller and smaller to the point where it's not really about very much?</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: It's a very symbolic debate and really has been all along. But the president has kind of toggled between messages. On the one hand, he says we must have a wall to protect border security. In other settings, though, he'll say the wall is largely built. So he's been very inconsistent in his message. And he's been mocked by Democrats for that changing description of the wall. I think the House speaker in waiting, Nancy Pelosi, joked that before long he's going to have a beaded curtain.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: We're - (laughter) a beaded curtain.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: And, you know, you're right, Steve, about the impact of the shutdown. It has been somewhat muted up until now during the holidays except for those 800,000 federal workers who are either furloughed or working without pay. But over time, you know, the effects will begin to pile up. Later this week, we're going to see the Smithsonian museum shut down along with the National Zoo. The EPA halted operations over the weekend. So the effects will be mounting.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: I talked to a fellow with a nonprofit group that works at Joshua Tree National Park out in California. You know, right now they have volunteers stocking the bathrooms with toilet paper. But over time, he said, the pit toilets are going to fill up; the dumpsters are going to fill up. And that's kind of a metaphor for what's happening throughout the government.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Perfect ending - Scott, we'll just leave you right there.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That is NPR's Scott Horsley. Happy New Year to you.</s>SCOTT HORSLEY, BYLINE: Happy New Year.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The Department of Homeland Security wants more stringent medical screenings of minors detained at the border.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: Right, this is happening after two migrant children died while in U.S. custody. But more of these screenings mean more resources, and government agencies are already overwhelmed. The U.S. government reportedly released more than 1,600 migrants last week. These are people arrested at the border who can't be detained.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Some of them end up in shelters. And Monica Ortiz Uribe spent time with a pediatrician who treats migrants at one shelter. She's on the line. Good morning.</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Hi, good morning.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Just to understand who we're talking about here, these are people who were effectively arrested by Border Patrol or are taken into custody by ICE and then released by ICE. Is that right?</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Yeah, that's correct. So, you know, the policy - the so-called catch and release policy applies mostly to Central Americans who can't automatically be turned around and deported the way Mexican nationals can be. So when ICE apprehends a Central American migrant, they can either put them in a detention center or release them with a future date. And because the courts are so backlogged, the immigration courts, they - these migrants can often wait for months or years in the U.S. before their case is decided.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, which is the very thing that President Trump says he dislikes because he sees it as an incentive for people to cross the border illegally. They effectively get here even if they've got a court date looming over their heads. But...</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Correct.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: ...The administration is releasing people because they can't detain all of them. Are aid organizations in El Paso able to absorb all the families that are coming now?</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Well, that's the million-dollar question. So far they have been. Donations have kept up, and they've been able to find enough space so that migrants can spend one or two nights here in El Paso before continuing on to meet relatives in other parts of the U.S. But, yeah, the director of the local shelter network is named Ruben Garcia. And he says their goal is to find enough beds for 3,000 people per week in case the numbers increase.</s>RUBEN GARCIA: It's going to take activating more sites. It's going to mean finding more churches or organizations that are willing to receive refugees.</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: So the key word here is willing. Annunciation House runs on the public's goodwill, and that's online financial donations and an army of volunteers. If the number of migrant families starts to exceed their capacity, Garcia says they may have to turn to the city of El Paso for help, asking it to open up more shelters and provide the staff to run them.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Although we heard there the appeal not for governments to step up but for private citizens. Who is stepping forward?</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Yeah, the variety is extraordinary. These are low-income folks who rely on a food pantry for meals. They've volunteered to cook for the migrants. People have flown in from as far away as Maine to help out for a week or two. Then there's the college students who are on winter break. People go to Costco and fill up a cart with diapers and jackets to take to the shelters.</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: I'm also told that the wife of Stanford's head football coach in town for today's annual Sun Bowl game brought the migrant families Popeye's chicken for lunch yesterday. One volunteer told me it's like a big Mexican family. When more people show up for Christmas, you simply find the extra room.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Oh, goodness, OK, so a kind of festive scene even though it's in some ways dark because people don't know what their future is going to be.</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Yeah, it's bringing a lot of people out to help, inspiring their, yeah, sense to help.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Monica, Happy New Year.</s>MONICA ORTIZ URIBE, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: That's reporter Monica Ortiz Uribe in El Paso, Texas.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: We go now to the Democratic Republic of Congo, where a presidential election has been called into question.</s>NOEL KING, HOST: That's right. After more than two years of delays, Congolese went to the polls on Sunday to elect a new president. Now the votes are being counted, and opposition candidates are alleging widespread irregularities. The outgoing president, Joseph Kabila, says the problems were minor, and he's praised the Congolese people for voting in peace and dignity.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton is in the capital, Kinshasa, covered the vote, is monitoring developments. Hey there, Ofeibea.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Greetings.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: What's happening?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Oh, my goodness, let me just remind you, Steve, why these elections are so important and so key and why the stakes are so high, because of course President Joseph Kabila, who has been in power for almost 18 years, says he's stepping down. And the election has been delayed for two years, since December 2016, prompting the opposition to charge that Kabila was trying to remain in power and stay past his mandate.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: And, you know, Congo's presidential election should enable this vast country, which is rich but poor, to finally have a peaceful and democratic transfer of power since independence from Belgium in 1960. So that's why these elections are so important and why there's so much tension.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Well, absolutely, because if you don't have a transfer of power, you by definition don't really have a - don't really have a democracy. You certainly don't have an open election system. So why is the opposition saying there was a problem with this election?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: They say right from the start - and one of them, Felix Tshisekedi, has deplored what he called disorder. Now, he says the Congolese government has deliberately manipulated election day chaos because it wants to trigger a court challenge to allow Joseph Kabila, who has effectively been this caretaker president for two years, to stay on. And analysts say they're only - you know, the only thing they can do then is go to court. But any sort of court challenge would be a dead end for the opposition.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: You have Martin Fayulu, another opposition candidate, who read out a long list of supposed irregularities, he said, including jammed voting machines, late opening of polling stations, missing voters' registers. And he says, you know, opposition coalition observers who are meant to be in the polling stations were kicked out when it came to the time to count ballots, so there a stream of fury from the opposition about all that's going on.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: Were there independent monitors of this election, Ofeibea? And if so, what are they saying?</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Let me tell you not from The Carter Center in Atlanta and not from the European Union but, yes, lots and lots of local ones, 20,000. But even these election observers reported multiple difficulties in voting.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: The influential Catholic Church, which has mediated in peace talks between the government and the opposition, voted at least 1,500 problems, a third of them with these controversial new voting machines which were apparently sourced in South Korea and being used for the first time. Technology flummoxed not only the machines, which jammed and didn't work, but also lots of voters who are used to manual ballots, so lots and lots of problems.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: The question is, though, will the vote be credible? Will the results be credible? Will the Congolese who were determined to vote in their millions finally choose the president they feel should be the president and not who anyone else feels should be the president? That is the key...</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And...</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: ...After election.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And we will be listening for your reporting. Ofeibea, thanks so much.</s>OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON, BYLINE: Always a pleasure. Thanks, Steve.</s>STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: And Happy New Year to you, Ofeibea Quist-Arcton.

We reported that a cow bound for the slaughterhouse slipped out of a truck, and wandered along a New Jersey highway until it was caught. After taken to an animal shelter, the cow gave birth.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Good morning. I'm Rachel Martin with an update on the rescued cow. We reported yesterday that a cow was bound for the slaughterhouse when it slipped out of a truck and wandered around a New Jersey highway until it was caught. She was then taken to a shelter. And on this New Year's Day, we can give you more news. The shelter says the cow, named Brianna, has become a mother. The calf is a girl, appropriately named Winter, and Winter seems completely unaffected by her mother's tumble off a truck. It's MORNING EDITION.

Researchers suggest Jeanne Calment may not have been 122 years old when she died in 1997. Instead, they hypothesize it was her 99-year-old daughter who had assumed her identity after she died.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Good morning. I'm Rachel Martin. The woman believed to be the oldest person who ever lived maybe wasn't. Two researchers now suggest Jeanne Calment of France may not have been 122 years old when she died in 1997. Instead, they hypothesize it was actually her 99-year-old daughter who had assumed her identity after she died. The French researcher who helped validate Calment's age, Jean-Marie Robine, says the new theory is false. Do you have any idea how many people would have needed to lie? It's MORNING EDITION.

Kim Jong Un declared that —while denuclearization is still his goal — his nation may have to follow a "new path" if the U.S. insists on unilateral action on that issue.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Un, says he is ready to meet with President Trump at any time. He made that offer in a televised New Year's address. He also recommitted himself to abandoning nuclear weapons but only if the U.S. sticks to its promises. NPR's Anthony Kuhn joins us now from Seoul to talk about what all this could mean. Good morning, Anthony. Happy New Year.</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Happy New Year, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So after the Singapore summit last year, when President Trump met face to face with Kim Jong Un. Trump says, quote, "We are ready to write a new chapter between our nations." So in light of this address from Kim Jong Un, are you seeing any evidence of a new chapter?</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: No. The speech was pretty much what analysts expected. And it didn't leave much room for optimism that the current stalemate over the nuclear issue is going to be broken soon. Kim said in his speech that he's serious about improving relations with the U.S. and completely denuclearizing the Korean peninsula. But he also - you know, he continued the North Korean line, which for months has been, look. We've made gestures to the U.S., such as dismantling nuclear and missile test sites. And now it's up to the U.S. It's the U.S.'s turn to reciprocate by easing sanctions or giving some sort of security guarantee. Let's hear a clip of Kim speaking today.</s>LEADER KIM JONG UN: (Speaking Korean).</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: "If the U.S. fails to keep the promises it made before the world," he says, "if it misjudges the patience of our people and continues to use sanctions and pressure against our republic, then we'll have no choice except to seek a new path to secure the sovereignty and interests of our country."</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: And he did not say, Rachel, exactly what this new path is. But he did describe the old path as one of the most hostile relations in the world between the U.S. and North Korea and has suggested that he might go back to that. Also, we noted that he was speaking from a very plushly upholstered sofa in a wood-paneled office. And, clearly, this appeared to make him look like a - calculated to make him look like a mature statesman rather than a dictator.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what exactly does he want right now, Kim Jong Un?</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Well, you remember from the summit in Singapore that they reached the vaguest of deals and that the U.S. and North Korea have completely different understandings of denuclearization. And the - North Korea has stuck to their definition, which is that they expect the U.S. to remove the U.S. nuclear umbrella that protects South Korea and Japan. And from the U.S. side, that's not on the negotiating table. And today, Kim added on. He said, we want to see an end to U.S.-South Korean joint military exercises that President Trump suspended after the summit.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I want to pivot to the South because the U.S. and South Korea were supposed to strike this new deal about the price of keeping U.S. military footprint in South Korea. And they were supposed to agree to this by New Year's Eve. They didn't. So now what?</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: Well, the U.S. is asking for all its allies to cough up more money. South Korean media report that the U.S. is looking for a 50 percent increase. And South Korea says no to that. Seoul was not happy about the U.S. pullout from Syria and the resignation of Mattis. And they point out, look. If you pull out of South Korea, you're not just undermining our defense. You're undermining the entire U.S. military posture in Asia.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Anthony Kuhn from Seoul. Thanks so much, Anthony.</s>ANTHONY KUHN, BYLINE: You bet, Rachel.