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[ { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Hello." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello. Can you hear me?" }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Yes, I can hear you now. Can you hear me all right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I can hear you all right." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for doing this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s my pleasure." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I can leap straight into it so as not to take too much of your time. You had, from me, the explanation about who we are and what the party is. The context in which this will be shown is, of course, our WE Party Conference. It’s ahead of the debate around whether data-driven technology can help create equality, or is part of the problem, or both things. That’s the context." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "We’ll just get a segment of this conversation for broadcast. We’ll show you what it is, obviously, before we do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll have the entire recording that you’re already recording." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m free to publish it afterwards, after you had your..." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...display. Time-wise, I have two hours, so we can talk about pretty much anything." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "We’re intending to have a much shorter excerpt, but I’m happy to talk to you for longer. There’s a lot I think I can learn from you. Thank you very much. I’ll begin as for this segment now." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Minister, thank you very much for finding the time to talk to us today. I’m very excited to talk to you because there are very few politicians who I would say are engaged in transformative politics. There are fewer still who are finding ways to harness technology to that transformation." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I wanted to talk to you in the beginning about the Sunflower Movement. There wasn’t as much publicity around that in the UK as you might have imagined. Would you mind starting by explaining the Sunflower Movement and your involvement in it? It was really something quite amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. The Sunflower Movement was a Occupy movement for 22 days in March to April 2014. During those 22 days, students and activists occupied the parliament. They did this for demonstration, but not demonstration in a protesting sense, but rather demonstration in the demo kind of sense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason of the occupation was that the MPs at the time were refusing to deliberate a trade service agreement with Beijing. Because of that, the students did the deliberation for the MPs because they went on strike. They occupied the parliament and did the deliberation with the people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the height of the Occupy, there was about half a million of people on the street and even more people online watching the live stream, the real-time transcripts, the various discussion boards, and all the different products of this massive Occupy movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Two things distinguish this Occupy movement from other Occupy movements around the world. The first one I think is very important, is that during the 22 days, mostly non-violent, every day people converge a little bit more on what they think about the trade service agreement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This means that more than 20 NGOs, concerning labor, concerning equality of the genders, concerning, for example, environmental protection and so on, each had their own kind of corner around the occupied place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They were all linked with a kind of nervous system that channels all the consensus made, all the points made, all the people’s feelings into a shared document that is shared by all the more than 20 NGOs in the Occupy. The end result is that like cross-pollinating ideas, people would just go from one NGO’s booth to another. Over the course of a day, maybe they would visit five different corners." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of the day, people did a recap, a synthetic document. By the beginning of the next day, people just talk about the things that they did not yet have consensus. That’s the first distinguishing factor in that it converges rather than diverges. The second factor I think is..." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Sorry to interrupt." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s good." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "In Taiwan, there had been a dearth of democracy. You had a government that was not listening to the people. Instead, what you got through the Occupy movement was not only people coming in to make their views heard, but you found a way of having a discussion that created greater understanding around the issue and greater consensus around the issue." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "You moved away from polarizing politics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "And you were already using technology for this as well as live debate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. The second distinguishing factor is that we allowed people who participate in any corner in the street to view a real-time live streaming of what’s happening inside occupied parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s also a live chat channel where people just type in what exactly they were hearing from the 20 or more debate stations so that people can just at a glance see what the topics are being debated as well as getting the consensus that’s being made from this debate on the street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a ICT technology, but it is for enabling people to listen to hundreds of thousands of people rather than speaking to hundreds of thousands of people. We often see social media or even television or radio used in a broadcasting manner, that is to say, it enables people to obey, follow the party line, or to somehow get the talking points from one or two people with stellar." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the inverse of that. This technology enables tens of thousands of people to listen to one another. It enabled the people who did occupy in the Occupy parliament to listen to those people and get them their voice as a single voice. This is a deployment of what we call assistive civic technology that led people as points being heard in a way that is accountable." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "It’s moving away from echo chambers and towards a way of facilitating debate and a way of creating information. Sitting here in England where we’re now living with the results of a referendum, which in some way looks like people power, but of course was based on only partial and very polarized information, it’s a very, very interesting piece of history and with an incredibly interesting outcome." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "What happened after all of these debates?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Afterwards, I think at the 21st day or so, the general occupiers as were participants converged on the set of recommendations toward the trade service agreement. The head of the parliament and head of the MPs accepted every single one of them and so the occupy was a victory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea, very simply put, is that people want the treatment with Beijing to be treated as any other foreign treaty to be deliberated by the MPs in exactly the same way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They also called for a national forum on making a real-time responsive deliberation system modeled after the ICT system deployed during the occupy so that people can look at any part of the budget, look at any part of regulation, do e-petitions and so on so that they don’t have to occupy again if some other controversial topic comes up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the National Forum, it was decided that we did a national e-participation platform called the Join platform. Of the 23 million people in Taiwan, about five million at the moment is using the Join platform." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Five million people using it on a basis that helps form policy very directly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On a active basis. That’s right. About one-quarter of people who can use Internet. Of course, that number can still grow, but still, I think we’re performing much better than other countries." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "What was your role in this? You came into this as somebody with Silicon Valley experience, which is also fairly unusual for a politician." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. At the time of the Occupy, I was a independent consultant to a company called Socialtext, which is called a Wiki company." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make wikis, we make microblogging, we make a lot of so-called social media tools but for Fortune 500 companies as well as large non-profits in order to enhance their internal communication and make sure that the knowledge is captured within the organization rather than inside specific silos." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we do something that’s like Facebook plus Twitter plus Wikipedia, but with the aim of getting people’s things done in the flow of work, rather than just keeping them on the website and watching as many advertisements as possible. It’s the same set of technology, social technology, but with a very different goal in mind. It is deployed to people’s business hours rather than off hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my background. I’ve been working with Socialtext since 2008, so quite a long time. At the same time, I’m also a consultant and independent contractor in Apple’s Siri team. I’m also working on machine learning, on cross-language understanding, on semantic understanding, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I bring my contribution to the Occupy mostly by setting up the communication network and making sure that fact spreads faster than rumors. This is easier said than done because rumors have a way to provoke outrage. Outrage makes people share messages even before they fact-check them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The only way we can stop it that makes facts spread faster than rumors is to make facts fun, is to make facts something that’s interactive, something that you can just type in your company, registration number, or your trade you’re doing and you see a very interactive graphics that shows exactly how the trade service agreement affects you. Of course, all these are done by a wider civic tech community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My main role is just to maintain the portal, the information portal of the Occupy movement, and making sure that all the different endeavors that makes it possible to have informed discussion is aware of each other’s existence, as well as maintaining the backend infrastructure against the cybersecurity attacks and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I don’t know of any other part of the Occupy movement that’s actually ended up in government anywhere in the world. You actually went from this uprising, this popular uprising, to actually being in government and putting these things into practice from the top down, even though what you’re talking about is something with much more participation and civic engagement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is somewhat comparable with the 15-M movement in Spain, where many Occupiers at the time was also becoming like Madrid mayors and also people in various important cities." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "You are now Digital Minister. As I say, you’re bringing all of this to bear as not just something that is part of a protest, but something that is everyday politics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. We see our demonstration as a demo. [laughs] Now I am deploying demo into production, as we talk about this, yes." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "[laughs] When you were in Silicon Valley, you also saw at close hand some of the difficulties with that culture. One of the things that people worry about technology is that it’s been made by a small and not-very-diverse group of people with certain ideas about what it can do." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Do you worry about this as well? Do you think that technology can be the answer to the concerns around technology?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a concern. At the beginning, when we were doing the mobile version of the Socialtext, what we call Signals, which is very much like Twitter, we didn’t anticipate that it kind of has a effect on the habit of people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in 2010 or so, it’s like if a person only installs one messaging system on their phones, it actually increased their productivity. If a person installs three or four instant message systems, it’s like a cocktail effect on the mind because the mind would be constantly context-switching." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It actually, from a mental health perspective, puts people in a always adrenaline rush or a fear-of-missing-out state that is not conductive to the kind of deep listening or deliberation that we were just talking about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We were part of the problem, I guess [laughs] , but we’re, I think, also aware that it is possible to have technologies that reduce the demand on attention and indeed the inherent bias that certain technology has introduced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In early 2000s, I also participated in the so-called spam wars. At that point, people thought that email is helpless and email may soon go away because it costs nothing to send junk mail. It wastes everybody’s time. It also degrades the trust that people put on each other’s messages around the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The solution to the spam problem was not a single, top-down action, a law, or an act. Neither was it a single technological change. Neither was it at a protocol change. Neither was it a single intervention by any civil society. Rather, it is all the different points that I talked about coordinating in a way that is accessible to all the stakeholders involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every single action increased the cost by spammers just a little bit and reduced their expected reward just a little bit. Taken together over maybe three or four years, we delivered a coordinated action that made it much more manageable. Now people don’t complain much about spams anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is one of the blueprints that I’m using in order to look at the manufactured addiction problem, the inherent bias problem, machine learning, the people’s distrust in general." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, algorithmic decided outcomes and things like that, all of it is much easier to solve if we get all the stakeholders on the same table, in a continuous relationship, and mapping out exactly what everybody’s stakes is and keeps it transparent and accountable, just as we did in the Internet society and related organizations during the spam war days." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there are a set of technologies, civic technologies, that can help solving these problems, but I don’t deny that there are also actors that would like to maintain the monopoly on precision persuasion for a lack of better term. This is an ongoing dialogue." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Also, that if you are building these kinds of things, it’s very important, presumably, to have real diversity in terms of who is inputting to these technologies. You talk about bias. Presumably, you would see a danger if there are too few women, as we know there are, in STEM, for example, that this can replicate biases then in terms of what is produced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I founded my first startup in 1996 in Taiwan, actually people majoring in computer science or working on IT and so on, the gender ratio is very healthy. It’s close to one on one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I got online, I discovered that the free software community, the maker community, and so on, many women are forced to use male-sounding nicknames, not because they identify as transgender [laughs] , but rather, they did this to avoid harassment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s apparently a very important and significant issue on the Western, English-speaking world. That took me completely by surprise because Taiwan is not like that. [laughs] I think this highlights the importance of participation. In Taiwan, we have different problems. For example, the indigenous people, they don’t participate enough in the design of everyday technology that affects them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As are the other ethnicities because Taiwan is like 98 percent ethnic Han. The other ethnicities’ voices don’t often get heard simply because of their language or their lived experience differences. One of the main points in diversity is not just getting sufficient number of people, although that helps, like our spokesperson now is a indigenous women." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our President is also partly indigenous, she’s a woman and not anyone’s daughter and wife. We think this is very important. Rather than just diversity, I think real inclusion means that all the different people participating in the end result of the designs, such as, for example, in our K-12 education, we emphasize that people use technology to work with children. They must prefer open source technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is to say that students have a say in where the technology is doing, like the access to machine learning and computation resources. There must be no difference between the city and indigenous or rural areas, things like that, and also broadband as a human right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that it is very important to have diversity in the community that makes things. Even more important is to have full inclusion in a set of users, in a set of people who use these technologies so they can fully inform where the technology is doing and in so doing democratize the production of technology itself." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Thank you. That’s an incredibly useful way of looking at it. I’m interested if you have any particular thoughts about how we as a small party operating in a system that is in many ways stacked against us might use technology ourselves or think about using technology ourselves." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I’ll give you one example. There was a lot of concern here around the Cambridge Analytica controversy. What that actually showed, although this again got very little coverage, was not just about that one incident. In fact, there are many people who legitimately provide such services, where they get a great deal of big data around the electorate. They analyze it, and they are able to zero in on what that means." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "The bigger parties that can afford to pay for that therefore have an advantage when it comes to, particularl y in a first-past-the-post system, in terms of targeting their voters." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "One of the things we have to think about is how we can be clever and do things that try and mitigate some of these in-built disadvantages under which we are acting. Do you have any particular tips for us about what that might look like?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the g0v movement, which is not just about supporting Sunflower Occupies, but also about making more attractive and fun open alternatives to the government websites, for all the government websites that the g0v people don’t think are useful or attractive enough, they end in G-O-V-T-W, those government websites." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like the legislative is L-Y-G-O-V-T-W. The g0v people will just make a new domain name, ly.g0v.tw. Basically, by changing an O to a zero, you get a shadow government that is more attractive and more participatory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the recent interventions that g0v community did, which get a lot of press attention, is the Councilors Voting Guide, which includes the Mayors Voting Guide. We have a local election coming up in about 90 days from now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Councilors Voting Guide is designed to maximize the people’s informed information before going into the voting booth. Not only does it include all the voting records and all the political career over a candidate’s career, what they voted, what they advocated, and what are their disclosures, spending, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, it innovates by, if you go to your precinct or your region, it lists all the councilors in a random order and with random color. What this means is that all the smaller parties’ candidates and all the independent candidates get as much the same coverage as the large parties in the voter’s guide." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They also crowdsource for newcomers their platforms in the form of a small, short YouTube video. They also allow people to sign in in their social media profiles and vote for the people they want. They even have some grants for people who receive the most number of people’s likes and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In all these cases, they act with what we call the ACE principle. A means actionable. It means that if you support a small party’s candidate, there’s something that you can do with five seconds’ time. There’s something you can do with your five minutes’ time or something you can do with five hours’ time. That’s the actionable part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s connected, meaning that whenever you do this, it raises your relative status among your peers [laughs] so that people would feel proud to endorse a candidate, to ask a candidate relevant question or to make a summary of a candidate’s position and so on. That makes its social so that people see on their social media profiles all the time there’s an independent candidate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, there’s a so-called obasan coalition. Obasan is a Japanese law word, literally means elder women. [laughs] There’s a loose coalition of elder women councilor candidates who are all running for the first time that maximize the use of social media through this use of the councilors voting guide." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re not just doing it on the Internet, but rather it crowdsources the agenda that people care about on the Internet and hold face-to-face deliberations based on the topics that people on the Internet feel as important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That bring us to the third, which is extensible. Extensible means like the MeToo hashtag. Nobody controls that hashtag. Everybody is allowed to add to it without asking permission." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This permission less innovation also lies behind the g0v philosophy because the entire code, the entire data set, everything is under what we call Creative Commons Zero, which means no rights reserved. Everybody is allowed to take it to wildly different directions and to mix, remixes and re-remixes and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re already seeing a lot of local campaigns that use this as a canvassing tool. That develops a much more targeted way based the collected the information on the councilors voting guide, but that’s pretty particular to Taiwan. I’m not sure whether how much that helps you, [laughs] but this is how we’re doing it here." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "No, I think there are some wonderful ideas in there. How feasible they are, I don’t know just because different legislative environment and different cost base for these things. I absolutely believe that we should be exploring all of this and seeing what we can do, because it’s not as if technology is going to go away." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "That’s the other thing. It’s what we see coming towards us. What would you see as the technologies that are heading our way that might make a difference as well?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the social innovation scene here in Taiwan, we’re seeing a lot of work around mutual distributed ledgers. I try to avoid the blockchain word because it is just one of the many technologies that can..." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "[laughs] I was..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. [laughs] ...that can deliver a mutual distributed ledger." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Yeah, I was laughing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Yeah, right. The newer generation distributed ledgers, they’re not even using chains anymore. They’re using a cyclic graph and so on. Without getting too technical, I think what’s important is that it’s a ledger that people can add to but not delete, that people can audit but they cannot censor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is an important part of it. It’s not the ICO part of it, although I’m sure that people are interested in that as well. [laughs] For my purposes, what this means is a relatively cheap way to build accountability, to build something that people can reasonably sure that will not be changed, to be censored or modified." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re already seeing it in use. For example, in campaign donations and even in disaster relief donations. For example, a lot of Taiwan people donated to the Nepali flooding disaster. People want to know that their donation is being used in a conscious and accountable way across many different actors in many jurisdictions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, to buy this kind of accountability, it’s very expensive because you have to hire...I don’t know, KPMG or equivalent [laughs] accountants in all the different jurisdictions to make sure that the numbers add up. It’s pretty expert language and people cannot easily verify it by themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re still doing that, but they’re now also using distributed ledgers to make sure that even if the crowdsourcing or crowdfundings go away, they can still reconstruct the entire accountability trail from the Ethereum public distributed ledger alone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also seeing a lot of people doing public discourse this way because they know it will not be censored by editors. They will not cave to pressure by powerful sovereign entities if they try to censor them, even attempt of censorship will be very apparent on the distributed ledger and is often a lost cause." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s also important to get people’s voice heard in a way that preserves integrity. I think accountability and integrity are the two not often advised, but I think it is actually a primary value that distributed Ledgers offer us today much more than its financial potentials." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "One of the things that strikes me about a lot of conversation about what distributed ledger technology, which yes, people here mostly know is blockchain would create it is that people don’t always think about the different impacts on gender and the different ways this would affect us." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "For example, there are some women and certainly people from minority populations, for example, who would be very worried by something that was irrevocable and which identified them and held information about them irrevocably because they have spent a lot of time actually trying not to be seen or not to be defined in a particular way." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "How should we approach these different strains, if you like, in evolving technology? You can see the beauty of something that can’t be censored and can’t be changed in some cases, but then it may have other unintended consequences." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. The two use cases that I mentioned, one for the use of public charity donations, and the second for people’s public discourse. Those two are definitely in the public sphere and not at all in a private, French, or whatever family setting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would not advice the use of mutual distributed ledgers at this point in time for any actions that you just mentioned that has a privacy part in it. I understand that there’s many mathematicians working on privacy-preserving, so-called zero-knowledge mathematics, but they are far from mature at this point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people are intending to use distributed ledgers in a way that interacts with private data, sensitive data, data with limited distribution, and things like that, there are other cryptographic tools such as end-to-end messaging and publicly auditable, forward secrecy-preserving chat tools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, personally, I use Wire, but Signal also has a lot of users, and things like that that are much more useful than distributed ledgers for this setting. One part of literacy or one part of awareness is to make sure that people understand the material of technology and the property that they uphold." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Code in this case is like law and not like jurisdiction law. It’s like physical law. Each different technology imbues with itself a different set of physical law that makes things easy, that makes things possible, that makes things impossible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the most important thing when we did our K-12 curriculum is learning with the children how they want technology to behave, and then make technologies or allocate technologies that respond to their expectations about a social setting, and not the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many buzzword makers would like it to be other way around, but I think that is actually detrimental to the autonomy of people with various different ideas and different social expectations." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "That seems to me a very important principle for anybody who is trying to make policy around these issues, to understand that aspect. Can I ask you about, I think it’s called pol.is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "We were talking before about the ways in which you were able to find consensus from very strongly polarized viewpoints. Is pol.is something we as a party could be using? What would it look like if you applied it to some very polarized debates that there are within feminism, for example?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pol.is is great if you use it as a agenda-setting tool. By that, I mean that it surfaces what people’s common values are, just by their differences. It enables people to find possible solutions that follows these common values. What it’s not so great is to work out the details of those ideas. For that, you need other tools. The great thing about pol.is and other technologies that..." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I’m going to interrupt briefly. pol.is, for people who haven’t read or heard about it, it’s a platform, yes?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I’ll explain it very quickly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pol.is is like a open questionnaire. When you go to pol.is, you’re seeing one of the few, what we call seed questions that ask simple yes or no questions about how you feel about one particular issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first time we used pol.is in Taiwan government, we talked about private ride sharing in the form of UberX. For example, the first time when one goes to pol.is, one can see a yes or no question, like, \"I think private passengers still need to have protection from accidents by commercial insurance providers.\" You can click yes or no on that particular sentiment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you do so, there is a face of the crowd underneath this yes or no question that shows the clusters, the people who think similarly, about things. You can see all your Facebook and Twitter friends if you sign in. If you don’t sign in, you see random famous people and how they locate within the different clusters." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Perhaps there’s people who care about innovation. There’s people who care about safety. There’s people who care about insurance. There’s people talks about taxation, and so on. They will form different clusters. As you answer yes or no questions, your avatar will move toward the cluster that most resemble your ideas. The beauty of pol.is, there are two distinguishing factors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, there is no reply button. You can just press yes or no, like up-vote and down-vote on other people’s sentiments, but you can never reply to them. Trolling, ad hominem attacks, and so on has no place on pol.is. If you can get 5,000 people voting exactly the same way, there is still one dot in the two-dimensional map. It doesn’t pay to troll in a pol.is environment. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that after you answer a few yes or no questions, you can contribute your own feelings. The more resonance you have for your own feelings, the higher the score is. It still engage people in a competitive way, but people compete to win resonance, people across the aisle." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "By competing to win people over to their viewpoint, it’s almost like a game." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. It is actually a game. To make it more visual, here is how it looks like. I hope you can see the screen." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the top, you can see one yes or no question. Below, you have an avatar moving as you answer, and you can see the cluster of people. After a few weeks, we always see something like this, where people identify the divisive things that they agree to disagree, but people spend far more time on consensus statements that they want to win over people from other aisles and other clusters." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever we see a shape like this, which is always actually, we always know that people want to spend much more time to work out the details of what they feel as important as everybody. It also lets people know that although there are a few, like five, divisive questions that tears people apart, no matter which groups you are, there is like 99 percent of people, 98 percent of people who share their common values after all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On normal social media, it flip around. People spend most of their time on arguing their differences while spending very little time arguing about their consensus." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Is that platform something that anyone can use?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. It is entirely open-source. We have a instance running here in the Taiwan national government. You don’t have to be a Taiwanese citizen. You can still use our instance. It’s easy to set up your own if you know technological people who can set up a machine." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "As we’ve been speaking, I’ve been imagining the very few people that we actually have in our team with their heads in their hands, because they know I’m going to come away from this conversation going, \"We should do pol.is. We should do pol.is.\"" }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "That should be, as you say, the websites that look like government websites, but actually have the information in them that the government websites don’t. All those things requires a lot of work. My question to you is, how is this actually done practically? Who is doing the work here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We actually start normally with a easier version, which is not pol.is. It’s called Slido. Slido is something that I use for all my public lectures. I just came out from a conference called Tai Chi, which is a Taiwan computer-human interface conference." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Slido idea is similar to pol.is. You go to Slido.com. You enter a number or a code, and you get to start asking questions. Unlike pol.is, there is no clustering. There is no moving around, but you can still like each other’s questions, and you can make things that people like the best float to the top." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Similarly, there is no reply button, and similarly, the only way to get something floating to the top is not attacking the current top question or top idea, but actually proposing something that resonates with more people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Slido is best used in a town hall setting with 200 or 2,000 people in the same room synchronously, while pol.is is best used over several weeks’ time, so that people have more time to come up with nuanced statements. We often mix the two." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, we will have a kickoff meeting where the people in the civil service, people who care about this, the activists, the various stakeholder groups, and so on, we first do a kickoff meeting where we talk about how to define the topic of this conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, just the name private ride sharing while charging people for it took us like three meetings to arrive to this definition. For example, we had another important conversation on pol.is where we again took two or three pre-meetings where we talk about non-consensual distribution of intimate images." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like everywhere, it was hotly debated, because people want each stakeholder group to feel as comfortable as possible with the definition of the name. For this kind of meeting, we don’t use pol.is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use regular teleconference or face-to-face discussion with deliberation facilitators and with Slido so that people can feel comfortable raising their points in those face-to-face meetings without the people who hoard the microphone taking all the time about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then after a few such meetings where we then converge on the well-defined topic of what we can talk about, then each stakeholder goes back to their group, and we give them the same URL, the same web address or pol.is in the same time, so that people can share at the same minute." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s important because if people come to pol.is and they see like they are alone in one corner, while 90 percent of people was dominated by some other faction, they will be turned off and they will not share a pol.is conversation. It’s important that a balanced number of stakeholders get the pol.is conversation at the same time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We find ourselves saying after, I don’t know, a month or so, any popular opinion, any resonating feeling that surface in the pol.is that’s convinced a super majority of people, meaning that in all the different clusters, it convinces the majority." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The more resonating it is, the easier for us to use this as the agenda for our next multi-stakeholder meeting, which is usually live streamed, and which the facilitator just checks the consensus from the people one by one, with the stakeholder saying the people have spoken, so what do you feel about it? Is this feasible? Is this possible? If it is, what actions are we committing to deliver on those shared values?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a three-part thing. The first one is the stakeholders building trust deciding on exactly what topic to talk about. The longer asynchronous pol.is stage, which usually lasts for three or four weeks until we get a set of consensus, then the same stakeholders, or even more stakeholders because people become aware of it as a result, go back to the same room, live stream or at least take a recording or transcript." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody responds just to the points on the pol.is that’s everybody’s consensus. Then we bind ourselves into coordinated action. This is how often it’s done in the vTaiwan method." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Then at the end of all of that, you might have a vote on something in the way that you would expect in a democracy, presumably. You go through this process of deliberation and moving people using both direct and representative democracy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Surprisingly, only about 20 percent of vTaiwan cases led into a law change, in which case, of course, the parliament need to do their conversation, and they need to vote on it. They mostly know that it’s already the people’s consensus. Other than one case, the other cases, the MPs just accepted the consensus pol.is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, the other 80 percent, which is regulatory change, policy change, or even behavior change, it doesn’t need a full conversation by the parliament. Just people committing to the actions, deliver, and work through those actions. They hold themselves accountable to it, and that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For many things like, for example, cyber bullying, what we did was not make a new law, but rather making sure that each ministry and each department deliver their responsibility in doing their part of work against cyber bullying. It doesn’t always lead to a vote. Maybe just one in five cases lead to a vote." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "You said you’re using it on a consultation around the non-consensual sharing of intimate images." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Intimate images, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "What we might refer to as revenge porn, for example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s right. That was the initial name actually, but then people pointed out it’s often not porn. Calling it porn actually obscures the original image collection, which was to show intimacy and not at all for arousal, or not always for arousal. It is mostly to show intimacy. People eventually changed the name to NCII. I’m neutral on this matter, as I must. This is just how it happened in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "NCII is very interesting also because people started talking on it as a primarily affecting women thing, but then we discovered that there’s also NCII cases around LGBT groups. There’s also NCII things in basically anywhere that has unequal potentially oppressive power structure. NCII is used as one of the power vehicles." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While women are, of course, one of these groups, they’re not the only group. This is the idea of intersectionality. People are vulnerable on various different parts. Any humiliation or any power struggle in any of those intersectional parts can reinforce each other’s power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we want to talk about this, saying this is wrong, and we don’t have to resort to calling it pornography, or calling it indecent image, or things like that, because people need to have control of their own intimate images, no matter which gender or which social status they are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a more inclusive way of having a dialogue, because stakeholders just discovered this conversation and then we learn about new stories that we did not anticipate that they are also victims of NCII." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "That’s completely fascinating. I am very aware that I’m talking to you for much longer than I intended to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "There are so many things here that I want to know about. I mentioned before that you came to Silicon Valley ridiculously young, didn’t you? Did I read somewhere that you...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "19 is not ridiculously young. I stayed in Germany for a year when I was 11, and then one year in The Valley when I was 18 or 19. I’m mostly based in Taiwan, actually." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I may be misinformed here. I thought you had founded a startup very young." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I did, when I was 15, actually. That was my first startup, then a series of startups." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I see, but not..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It got invested eventually by Intel and was one of the dot com stories in Taiwan. At that time, I think that everything is very international, and we don’t call ourselves a Silicon Valley company. We’re still, at that time, mostly based in Asia, but it’s my first startup when I was 15." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "I’ve been wondering. I’m very glad that you’re in Taiwan and doing what you’re doing, but there was part of me that was wishing that you were in America maybe finding ways to revitalize the democracy there right now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We hold workshops in New York City. Many people in NYC and also people from 18F, from the federal government. We also talk about people from the US Digital Service and the usual suspects. I think there is still a lot of people doing useful work around civic participation open government, especially on a state and city level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To think about it, Taiwan is just a larger city. The north-most city, Taipei, and the south, in Kaohsiung, taking high-speed rails is just an hour and a half. While we are 23 million people, admittedly, it’s on a relatively small geographic island, which is why we can say broadband is a human right and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also means that the technologies we develop are mostly scaled to this geographic scale and to maybe five million people, give or take, which in the United States is just maybe half a New York State or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it makes sense to start our experiments, start our coordination and workshops and so on, on this self-ruling, to a degree, cities or states in this kind of size." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Sorry. I just lost the sound for a second there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m recording my side of the sound, so we can always stitch everything together." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "That’s good. Just at the end, you froze for a second. I’ll finish with a question that we’re going to go on and debate at this Women’s Equality Party Conference. That’s really whether data-driven technology can actually help to resolve inequality. Do you have views on that issue?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, strong views, I would say." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think data agency, data as a relationship and not as an asset, is something that even with the GDPR, many policymakers still have not internalized this view on data. I’m not just quoting GDPR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, the privacy protection act, the PIPA, says the same thing, it basically says if a organization or institution holds my data, it begins a relationship where I can always ask what’s happening with this data. I can update it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they want it to be used in a way that goes beyond the original collection purposes, I need to be given a chance to be informed and even update about it. The alternative is just to have a pale shadow of a data-driven simulacrum of me four years ago, a small part of my behavior that would be extrapolated, often wrongly, about my current status." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we see data as an asset and not a relationship, we will end up with the data that are there but are basically reinforcing biases, not just from our past selves, but also from past social conditions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very important to see that only a living relationship between the data so-called producers, so-called data processors and so-called data users or consumers, they need to trust each other through a accountability framework that enables constant interrogation, constant relationship between all those different people involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Only at that time can we get the agency of the people back to the people so-called producing the data for collection. I think if the people producing data or people collecting data are generally aware of this, then they see their contributions as in the commons." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, in Taiwan, we are now working with the Mozilla Foundation on a project called Common Voice, which is basically us reading aloud random fragments of public domain text." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, informing the machine learning algorithm so they can recognize the different accent, the different ways people use language, even ethnic minorities, indigenous people, and things like that instead of forcing everybody to speak in a accent that most resembles whatever [laughs] the original voice actors that the machine learning companies contracted with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This commons that resembles the way people actually speak are entirely done by voluntary contributions and with the people knowing that they can also use the voice data in this commons for whatever purpose they like. They can also update it and reflect what they want things to go to, again democratization of this technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If this is in the commons, if this is managed by a social enterprise or a cooperative that everybody can openly join, then this is seen as something that shares everybody’s stewardship responsibilities, but also rights." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If, on the other hand, the collection itself is opaque, if, on the other hand, the collection itself makes biased assumptions that people are not aware of, not even the data scientists themselves are aware of, then we get a situation where we get a lot of food. We feed it into a machine learning algorithm, but there’s no nutrition labels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t know that whether it has skipped over those and one thing or another. Then the data agency will be much harder to be built as a kind of ad hoc or post-tactile way because the mathematics is just not there yet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It need to be privacy-enhancing by design, and if people choose to contribute to the commons, this is by their voluntary action, and again, the stewardship need to be designed in the beginning, not as a tacked-on law or regulation, because that doesn’t work, frankly speaking." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Thank you, that’s such an excellent answer. Great way to set the scene for the debate, and incredibly useful insights into what we might be doing. Thank you again so much. Thanks for speaking to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you. I’ll send you my end of voice recordings, and you’ll send me the video recordings on your end, so we’ll have a very high-quality stitched version." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Catherine Mayer", "speech": "[laughs] That’s right. Thank you. Bye." } ]

[ { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（中華開發金控-凱基商業銀行股份有限公司周郭傑資深副總經理）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（透明足跡-曾虹文研究員）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（逢甲大學GIS研究中心-方耀民助理教授）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（一零四資訊科技股份有限公司-張閔隆資深經理）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（資拓宏宇國際股份有限公司-許維揚經理）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（訊舟科技股份有限公司-吳靜美產品經理）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（創控科技股份有限公司-曹育嘉博士）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（玉山商業銀行-李嘉銘協理）" }, { "speaker": "發言摘要", "speech": "（法律扶助基金會-吳富凱律師）" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Merci beaucoup, once again. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My pleasure." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "The first question is about democracy. You said in Journal Le Monde, the French newspaper, that you declare that you were reinventing democracy. Where are you now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still reinventing." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve made quite a bit of progress along the lines of the column that I wrote in La Monde. For example, I said that I would like to expand the public commentary not just on one single case, one budget item, or things like that, but rather all the different projects that all the ministries are doing. This year, we have more than 1,300 different projects by all the different ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything that is not state secret is now public on the Internet for people to comment and for career public servants to answer in real time without a need of representatives. I think that is real progress. It used to be that it’s only selected cases that a minister want to talk, but now it’s practically everything. That’s a good progress." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other progress I would like to mention is that every ministry now has a team of what we call participation officers. That is to say, a team of people who are charged to engage with any petitioners or anything that are emergent from the civil society. Again, this is a regulation on the administration level, not answering to my office. Rather, it is a part of the state system now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything that is cross-ministry, previously they would just get a explanation. Now they would get a solution, because those participation officers will travel and meet the petitioners in real time and with digitally assisted tools, so that when people cannot make it to rural places or remote islands, they can nevertheless participate in the face-to-face discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This system, of which we have established more than 40 cases, like redesigning our online tax filing system. At the moment, we’re redesigning our Medicare experience and very high-impact things like that, but also local issues like local hospital coverage in Hengchun, just south of Taiwan, a Marine National Park in Penghu, Pescadore, and things like that. It encompasses all the different ranges." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I wrote that article, I talked mostly about just digital economy issues. Now this system has been adopted by all the different issues. Of the 23 million people in Taiwan, 5 million is on our platform now. When I wrote the article maybe just a few hundred K, but now 5 million is on our platform." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Voila, a big success, some failures. You have some failures?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. One of the biggest success is that we established a sandbox system. What we mean by sandbox is a experimentation period, where the civil society or the private sector can say, \"Our existing financial regulation is in the way of innovation.\" Instead of fighting in the Parliament, they can say, \"I want a new, revised regulation. And I want to operate under this new system.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even the legal code itself is open source. You can change it to a different direction, and then you can experiment with this alternate version of the code for one year in a limited risk environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, there are some red lines. You cannot say, \"For the next year, I’m going to experiment with money laundering,\" or, \"For the next year, I’m going to experiment with funding some terrorists.\" That is not possible. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, any regulation from any other ministry you can also challenge in the sandbox application. We started this platform economy regulation in January of this year, and we established a FinTech sandbox April this year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of the year, we expect to pass another what we call AI mobility sandbox, which talks about autonomous vehicles. That can be a car that drives and then flies or a ship that sails and then becomes a car. It could be a hybrid between various modalities, and that can also be experimented for a year and extended to two years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s a good idea, then our regulation change because of it. If it requires a law change, then the experiment can be extended up to four years, again the longest period anywhere in the world." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Looking at my notes for the next question..." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Yes, I have them." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "I prefer to have them in English." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would also like to talk about failures. There was a notable shortcoming when we first did the Uber case in 2015 that was also very widely reported in French media. Because of that, I would like to add something that I consider as shortcomings, in retrospect. There are three shortcomings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, when we did the consultation, Uber was only operating in Taipei City, New Taipei, and maybe a little bit of Taoyuanin in North Taiwan. It’s like it’s only operating in Paris. Because of that, the stakeholders we did in this consultation mechanism only included the labor unions, the taxi drivers, the existing taxi fleets operating in that region." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We did achieve consensus, it was ratified, and now Uber is operating legally. You can call a taxi using Uber app and so on. It’s all very well done, but it did not include stakeholders in southern part of Taiwan, which Uber again started operating after our consultation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In retrospect, the south part of Taiwan’s taxi drivers view it’s unfair. While it’s consensus, it’s North Taiwan’s consensus, [laughs] and somehow it becomes laws that affects them. I think that is a major shortcoming." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that, when we did the consultation, we did not involve the career public servants. Mostly, we rely on the volunteers from the g0v community to run the system. While it’s very successful, when the next minister want to run something like it and ask their staff to run it, they don’t know to run it at all, because it was all done by outside experts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are remedying this now by having participation officers to be all career public servants, so that the skill can accumulate within the public service, instead of rely on outside experts. That was a shortcoming that we’re trying to ameliorate now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third shortcoming is that during the discussion with Uber, there was a voice that says we should generalize this to sharing of parking lots, to Airbnb, to all the different platform economy cases. At that time, we felt that, because we engage already with the Ministry of Economy, Transportation, Finance, it’s already a lot of stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you want to talk about those other platform economy, we have to engage more people, and it’s very expensive, [laughs] both in time and in cost. We said no, we’d just focus on this particular case. Unfortunately, that came back to bite us. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many other cases with similar structure, which is why, as I mentioned, this January we did the case of a general platform economy regulation that deals with platform economy, in general. In retrospect, if we had already done that in 2015, that will save three years of controversy. Those are the shortcomings of the first UberX consultation." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "If it’s not too soon, what is today the legacy of the Occupy, of the Sunflower Movement? Has it changed with time with society?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the mayoral election following the Sunflower Movement, any mayor that speaks authoritarian language, that is against public transparency, lost the election. There are some mayors who are Sunflower supporters, who did not expect to be elected, nevertheless got elected [laughs] just because they advocated for the Sunflower values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, that becomes part of the Taiwan identity, democracy, in the sense that democracy is not just about voting every four years, but about every day we can see what is happening. Any major politician at least have to pay lip service to this idea. Otherwise, they don’t have a political career. I think that becomes a new norm of politicians in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Is it a coincidence if all these projects for democracy, the fact that you are innovating on digital democracy, emerge at the time where China threatens more and more openly the independence on the identity of Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The PRC is also advancing digital technology, but perhaps toward a very different direction. That is still innovation, but innovation in the name of authoritarian control. I will not say that they are not innovative. They are very innovative, just on a very different [laughs] directions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of their advance in such innovations, I think it is natural for them to try to influence the nearby powers to adopt this philosophy of authoritarian control. It is the nature of many states and governments to want authoritarian control and to curtail the space for the civil society. It was just that there was no good technology to do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whatever liberty the civil society enjoys at those jurisdictions, it may be a artifact of there’s no power of structure that is enhanced by advanced digital surveillance technology. I would say the PRC is now actively exporting this philosophy and a digital system that associates with this philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think this is particular about Taiwan, although we’re innovating on a very different direction. It is natural for a advanced political and philosophical system to want to expand its influence and its philosophy to like-minded jurisdictions." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Taiwan is creating its own Silicon Valley and wants to become the AI island of the world. Why?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our national plan is called Asia.Silicon Valley and Taiwan is the dot that connects the Asia and the Silicon Valley. I would not say that we’re going to copy or \"shanzhai\" the Silicon Valley. That is not our goal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our goal is basically to look at the common issues faced by the Asian region, which is very soon going to be the world’s most populous region and suffers from the same climate, aging, and various other sustainable development challenges." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re innovating in response to those social needs. We solve not just our local issues, like using AI to solve water leakage problem, to solve water shortage issues as a result of climate change, but we’re also exporting the AI technology we develop for resilience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, right now in New Zealand, a bunch of AI people from Taiwan and Taiwan water company are helping them to solve the water shortage and leakage issue, which was not an issue because New Zealand didn’t use to have a water shortage problem, but because of that climate change." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that we’re not saying Silicon Valley has all the answers. We’re saying Silicon Valley has a set of tools, like machine learning that we are part of, the creators of those tools, but those tools must be deployed to solve real social and environmental issues in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not just satisfied with solving these locally, but also publicizing and sharing our results so that every other people in the Asian region suffering from the same environmental and social issues can enjoy this innovation that we connect the Silicon Valley’s power to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a instrument, the Silicon Valley technologies. It is not an end in itself." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "In Europe, we contrast virtual and real. In Taiwan, many still have traditions, for example, the ancestral fish flying or stinky tofu recipes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They film it and put it on e-commerce sites." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And put virtual reality experiences with flying fishing." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "It means that there is no two Taiwans. The vTaiwan or the real Taiwan. There’s no opposition in the two sides of the society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, as president Tsai Ing-wen declared in her campaign, her campaign idea is broadband as human right. Many jurisdictions to say this, but very few actually deliver. Taiwan is one of the few places where we actually deliver broadband as a human right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any place in Taiwan if you cannot connect to broadband Internet is the government’s fault. Because of this, we don’t have, as you said, the digital gap between the people who have access and the people who do not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody is entitled to broadband access. Even for poor families who cannot afford the tablets or the devices, they can go to their local library, their local Digital Opportunity Center or the local school to enjoy such access." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, what we’re saying is that it is not two Taiwan if we can include everyone in the digital transformation. Indeed, in terms of the broadband readiness, Taiwan is number one or number two in the world." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "You recently attempted a meeting of the UN in Geneva themed by robot. What does your virtual presence mean for you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I attended many meetings in the UN this way. It’s just that Geneva one was live streamed on the Internet, so it was discovered." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "It was not the first one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s something that I’ve always been doing even before becoming a digital minister. I see this as first, it reduce carbon footprint compared to flying. It also doesn’t have jetlag as a problem, so I think it’s a very convenient way. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Madrid, I actually appeared first as a robot. They call it Galatea. That is a 360 robot that I can experience Madrid using virtual reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After a week, I fly to Madrid and the students there feel that I just changed bodies from a silicon one to a carbon one, but it is a continuity of relationship. I think telepresence is only going to be even more and more feasible to bind people’s feelings together and not just abstract words or images." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this makes a lot of sense in the diplomatic setting as well because people need to feel how it is like in various different corners of the world instead of seeing them just as abstract numbers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m happy to demonstrate this, but I think this is not something that is a one-shot. It is a ongoing relationship." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "What are the most important influence of the destiny of humanity for you? The dialog of men with men? Men with machines? Machines with machine? What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The dialog itself is the important part. We are, after all, just containers of thoughts. The ideas, the thoughts, they inhabit people who are ready for it and they also may inhabit machines that are ready for it. What I mean is a more relational view on things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment many people, especially in the Silicon Valley, see data as something that is an asset, as something that can be hoarded, something can be owned, can be sold, can be given, and so on. They see data exchange as a proxy of a dialog, and I think this is a dangerous view." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think data is just a beginning of a relationship. If I have some data that I create with you, then we talk about how to make use of the data together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you have some data that you entrust to me, we begin a relationship in which you can ask me about what am I doing with the data about updating, about turning the data into something that is more accurately reflecting your in the moment state, and not some state four years ago or three years ago, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this accountability mechanism, while very abstract, if you read a GDPR, it is actually very humane. It talks about the agency that each actor, each person, our age machine in the future has. If they have a beginning of a relationship with any other entity, it is the agency of the data expression and data as a social object that enables such reactions and actions and relationships." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taken in this view, what is important is that it must be equitable and symmetric. If we have a relationship that only I can talk and you cannot, it is not a relationship. It is just control." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What is important is the equitable and symmetric relationship of all the stakeholders involved, and that is the important part. It doesn’t quite matter how many of these are men or women or transgender or machines, but rather the importance is how equitable the message flows between the different nets." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Reinventing democracy, strengthening individual freedoms including LGBT rights, Taiwan’s identity and specificity has been strengthened in recent years. However, the Island seems isolated on the international things, right? How do you see and resist to this pressure?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The island is pretty stable. We have some earthquakes, but we’re generally doing fine, and the influx of tourists have not stopped. It actually increased, but of course the demographics have changed slightly, but I would not say that we’re being isolated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s more people coming to Taiwan, and also coming from Taiwan to other places, and the international trade and exchange of information and knowledge and innovation have not stopped. I think this is entirely in the mind of the frame of Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you see Taiwan as a island with huge biodiversity, with the peoples with huge social diversities...As you said, the identity as a island where diverse values can still find common solutions to everyone, these value have not changed and indeed have only strengthened, and our influence to the region and to the world has only increased during the recent years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you talk about isolation, then that is taking a very Westphalian view on things, so maybe only on the Westphalian arena [laughs] this situation may make sense, but as a anarchist I officially don’t care." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my personal answer." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Last question. As a child, you do computers before you even own one. What remains of the dream and hopes you had?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can still draw a keyboard for you here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s still here. [laughs] I always prefer stylus, from Palm Pilot to Zaurus, to the Note phone to the Apple Pencil. This I think is the same from the age when I was eight years old, when I start drawing keyboards. I always prefer input modalities that makes a full use or a fuller use of body." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be gestures, it could be images, it could be a high quality recording like talking to the camera. [laughs] In other words, I think computers as a -- what Steve Jobs said -- a bicycle of the mind. It carries the entirety of the mind and body that associate with the mind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This embodied computation and computer as a bicycle that carries us, but ultimately, we steer it and we pedal it. I think this is the same image, the same conception I had as a child, and that I’m still applying this as a lesson today as the digital minister." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Merci Beaucoup." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. That was very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Frédéric Laffont", "speech": "Merci." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們準時開始，今天sli.do的code是903，有人說今天的會議室相當涼快，主要是因為前面有另外一場會議，所以先開了，跟上個月的情況不一樣；也有一位朋友覺得涼快的程度還好，所以先archive起來，總之今天sli.do的code是903。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們理論上，這個月會討論台南的事情，但因為氣候的關係，我們延到10月12日再去台南，所以如果對台南也要試辦PO制度有興趣，而上次沒有報到名的部分還可以報名。以上是工商服務的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們有新朋友，也就是促轉會的PO，是哪一位？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為通常新朋友可以稍微跟我們自我介紹一下，我想「透過多元對話、重建社會信任」，這個跟我們做開放政府的想法是一致的。是不是可以自我介紹一下？" }, { "speaker": "劉智復", "speech": "我是促進轉型正義委員會的開放政府聯絡人劉智復專門委員，本會在今年5月31日新掛牌成立，屬行政院二級獨立部會。" }, { "speaker": "劉智復", "speech": "本會主要任務是開放政治檔案、清除威權象徵、平復司法不法及不當黨產處理及運用，跟開放政府的基本原則透明、參與、課責及涵容的理念完全一致，非常榮幸可以參加這個團隊，請大家多多指教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝加入PO群組，之後請都不用站起來報告，我們大家都是坐著講話，以後也可以就叫我唐鳳就可以了，這也是一種清除威權的象徵，不過大家都是要練習很久才真的可以叫我唐鳳，也不需要馬上辦理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想很高興促轉會PO的加入，也很期待未來在促轉會的各個編組裡面，只要有用得到開放政府程序的部分，也請其他的部會的朋友們多多幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們有一個數位相關的加拿大活動，之後不但要出國，之前在線上他們對於sandstorm也有表示興趣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是請致翔講一下實體會議的部分？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "謝謝唐鳳。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關加拿大數位外交的活動，在事前已經有用電子郵件的形式寄給大家，我這邊再簡單作口頭的補充，活動的主要分成兩項，一個是叫做「FWD50」，另一個是PDIS跟當地的CDS合辦一個工作坊，各位PO如果有興趣的話，我們建議可以出席的人是一定要參加這個工作坊，至於FWD50是選配，如果可以也請一併參加。FWD50地點在渥太華，工作坊的地點暫訂在多倫多，如果細節有出來的話，會再讓大家知道。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "主題的部分，FDW主要討論運用科技來創造社會共好的部分，是有超過十五個國家的政府及民間數位領導人來出席，工作坊的部分是由PDIS及加拿大的數位辦公室合辦，透過協作會議的方式來互相交流。活動的時間原則上會落在11月7日至9日，工作坊的日期也會在這附近，方便大家在一個行程當中參加兩個活動。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "經費的部分，如同前一次我們去紐約，還是以部會自籌的經費為主，但是如果真的部會有興趣，但是自籌經費有困難的話，活動主辦機關願意出唐鳳的機票，所以她的機票額度可以運用給PO運用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "按照我在紐約的經驗，大家願意委屈一點，願意坐豪華經濟艙的話就可以換兩個人的機票，旅費不是很大的問題，就看大家的興趣，就直接進入報告的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "報告目前看起來有四個案子，請大家按照這樣的順序，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於剛剛數位外交的活動我再補充兩點，回報的時間大家可以稍微想久一點，下一次月會的時候再統計有多少人願意出席，如果在行政程序上有任何需要我們協助的地方，不管是電子郵件或者是任何形式的公文書我們這邊也可以協助出具，原則上還是取決於各位PO有沒有意願參加才是最重要的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著是歷次協作會議摘要報告，序號9，請法務部報告。" }, { "speaker": "羅柏", "speech": "這個案子目前立法院沒有進度，雖然即將開議，看起來不樂觀，但是我們會掌握進度，以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來是序號35，地震速報案分別由內政部NCC及交通部共同主辦，先請內政部。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "內政部說明，本部消防署將持續於每一年921國家防災日辦理指定電視頻道播放重大災害訊息演習，適時評估將警報誤報的狀況納入演習的情境，另會持續整合全國地震防災宣導能量，並建置臺灣抗災演練網及辦理全民地震網路演練活動，加強全民地震防災應變能力，後續消防署也會評估將地震速報等緊急訊息來源與訊息服務平台MSP介接，並就時效性、影響程度等區分全自動傳送或採手動發布，以完備相關訊息之傳遞。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "另本部消防署已於8月7日召開防救災系統資訊整合工作小組會議，請相關機關持續積極推動，善用最新科技及多元媒體管道傳遞災害訊息，本案已於8月31日於「Join」平台上回應，建議解除列管，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "請NCC。" }, { "speaker": "曾憲康", "speech": "有關於本案的部分，NCC這邊將配合相關災害防救主管機關，不論是中央或者是地方機關的權責來辦理，本案現並無本會應即辦理事項，建議解除列管，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "請交通部。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "主席、各位與會同仁，這個案子我們交通部也是在8月31日正式回應，我們的建議是可以援引災防告警細胞廣播服務的作業模式，後續推動規劃的部分，我們建議在這一個系統建置技術層面，廠商的成本考量、資源投入及合作意願的這一些議題還沒有解決之前，我們建議維持現行的作業模式，鼓勵有合作意願的合作業者可以來與我們的氣象局洽談，等到相關可行方案確定的話，我們氣象局會全力配合辦理，以上，也建議本案解除列管，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看到交通部發新聞稿，歡迎大家簽約合作，我覺得這個是非常好的訊息，因為目前確實是願者上鉤的情況，等到可能一、兩個效果特別好的，也許可以讓其他的廠商發現這真的有一點價值，不然的話，目前確實也沒有非常簡單的方法告訴大家說建置這個都是有價值的，所以這個案子就解管，非常感謝大家的努力。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來是序號第36案，請立法強制托嬰中心及幼稚園等設立線上監視系統，即將第一幼兒園師生比案，這一案是由教育部、衛福部共同擔任主辦機關，先請教育部。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "主席、各位代表大家好，這個主題有兩個議題，一個是強制托嬰中心及幼稚園設立線上監視系統，一個是降低幼兒園師生比，這個部分我們在7月29日有在第三十六次的協作會議邀請相關的範圍來作協議。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "第一個主題是降低幼兒師生比的部分，與會者是有共識的，也就是降低師生比是有助於提升教保人員的勞動條件及服務品質，不過也發現還有其他的問題，包括行政、上班時間沒有喘息空間等等，還有影響教保人員服務時間過長的一些因素，所以本部提出兩個主軸，先以擴大公共教保服務量，建置公共基準、減輕家長負擔等施政主軸來作處理。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "在擴大公共教保品質這一方面，在101年我們預估總增加可以增加到兩千兩百四十七班，可以提供6萬多個幼兒園的機會，減輕家長的部分會擴大發放到幼兒津貼2至4歲。在一定條件下，未領取育兒留置停薪、津貼的的部分，每個人可以補助3萬元，第三胎以上每個人可以再加發1萬2,000元，另外也提供一些教保服務人員職場更好的一些條件。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "另外，在設立線上監視系統的部分，在協作會議也取得大家的共識，如何減少兒虐、建立教保服務人員的互信、建立監視器的調閱辦法等等，這個可能是比較重要及急迫，因此這一個部分就基本的立場是不強制設置監視器，因為強制設計未必有助於防堵立法院的事件。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "另外現在立法院也三讀通過了幼兒照顧法的相關附帶決議，要教育部研議幼兒園裝設錄影及系統的相關規範，這個部分我們也會更新配合立法院的辦理，因此這一個部分在降低幼兒園的部分，我們會持續擴大平價教保的服務，另外是減輕家長的負擔，兩項主軸來作施政。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "另外一個部分，監視系統的部分還是不以強制來裝設，相關的議題我們也在「Join」平台正式回應，所以這兩個部分都有處理，也建議解除列管，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "衛福部繼續報告，非常幸運接著教育部的PO後面，所以一些背景資訊是一樣、雷同的，我就不再贅述。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "一樣分成師生比的部分及監視器的兩個部分說明，針對師生比的部分，的確在協作會議上，大家對於往降低師生比的方向是有共識的，但實際上在協作會議後，銜接到既有的行政討路，如同之前月會、季會都有提到8月1日因剛上路的育兒新制，在這一個過程中，其實曾經研訂直轄市縣市政府辦理未滿2歲兒童托育準公共化服務與服務費用申報及支付作業要點，在討論作業要點的過程中，這個方向已經很多人在提，有召開跟地方政府的工作會議、跟民間團體的說明會議上有多次討論。關於降低托嬰中心降低到1比4，這部分仍然是沒有共識的。目前部裡面的方向比較是基於營運成本，市場有無足夠托育的人數可以去聘任等等的因素考量之綜合情況下，因為無共識要去訂是比較困難的，所以會朝向請地方政府補助公私協力托嬰中心優聘方式辦理來降低照顧比，然後視這個部分的後續辦理情況再看有沒有機會修法朝1比4的方向去努力。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "無論如何雖然師生比是一個問題，除了師生比之外，也包含托育人的薪資狀況是如何，在育兒新制裡有提到有關於托嬰中心托育人員薪資管理的措施，雖然沒有辦法直接從師生比下手，但在薪資的部分，在制度中有增加相關措施，透過這樣的措施也希望能提升托育品質，以上是師生比後續我們的社家署做的一些相關討論。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "監視器的部分同教育部，協作會議上大家談完的結論是，都認為反而當初提案人所說的要強制裝設監視器，好像不能解決原本想要解決的兒虐的這些相關問題。署內最新的進度是，雖然沒有覺得需要強制，但的確現況下許多托嬰中心是有裝設的，針對已裝設的部分，相關的運用、資料調閱等等是不是有一套機制，其實在協作會議時也有與會者希望在這一個部分還是可以作一些相關的管理。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "所以我們最新的進度是目前規劃於9月份的時候會召開托育議題的相關會議，目前預計還是將監視器的議題納入研商，會再次找專家學者、民間團體及地方政府，針對既有已有裝監視器的錄影監視的利用、保存、安全管理及相關規範去進行研議、制定範例，希望可以提供地方政府為參考的依據，以上這兩個部分是衛福部後續討論；因為比較回歸到部裡面的處理，是不是主席就裁示這兩個案子，未來不需要繼續列管？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一方面當然要管控準公共社會價格要合理，二方面是要降低師生比，但是這兩個沒有辦法同時達成。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很顯然的，這個是做價值上的取捨，就是把先要把平價做到一個程度，願意降低師生比的未來有一些獎勵，但是現在並不是採取強制方式做，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那我們要回應監視器的部分，教育部的部分是不是我們經過討論之後不要強制，可以這樣回應嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "立法院是說要規範，是針對已經裝設的，但是並不是強制說他們要去裝設。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以附帶決議的文字是有一些空間，已經裝的，我們有一個包含「利用、保存及管理」的辦法，沒有裝的並不會因為我們制定這個，突然變成要裝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "教育部和衛福部，兩邊的看法是一樣的？" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，那這個就解管。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我想問一下，如果有後續的會議，讓我們旁聽一下，瞭解後續的決議如何被使用，我們旁聽就好，不會發表意見。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "政委辦有這樣的需求，我會回去轉知。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主要之前有一些shadow PO的一些想法，對於後續接續到行政流程想要更瞭解一點，但是列席身分就好了，我是不會出現的，因為政委列席就是……雖然最近有一些會議滿流行政委列席，但是我覺得拘束力會太大，就是我們的研究員，如果方便的話，可以直接跟PO聯絡。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "因為跟業務單位說政委辦與會，我想業務單位可能會一頭霧水，我需要幫他們瞭解一下與會的性質，這部分是不是會後再跟雨蒼直接聯繫詢問？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "序號37，新一代國家健保憑證規劃案，請衛福部。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這個議題因為政委辦已經非常熟悉了，我就快速帶過。附帶一提，我們今天兩個案子比較完整的資料，我已經放到sli.do上，有興趣可以再看。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "健保的案子如同各位所知道，已經報告很多個月，此議題是一系列的協作會議，原本是預計辦三場，我們現在的進度是8月8日辦完第二場，所以接下來有第三場。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "大概的狀況是越接近後面就越接近要回到行政程序時，需要比較謹慎一點，因此我們原本的步調是7月一場、8月一場，原本想說9月要辦到第三場，後來署內發現討論的東西要match到實務上的情境及用得上，這需要更多的時間去作研議。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "因此最新的進度是8月8日辦完第二次的協作會議，8月17日、21日舉辦了working level及長官層級第二次協作會議的會後會，目前經過跟副署長、政委討論之後，我們下一次的內部工作會議是訂定在10月2日，第三次的協作會議要怎麼規劃辦理，10月2日再舉行內部的長官會議來作後續定案。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "現在到10月2日之間有約一個月的時間，是回歸到署內，針對前兩次已經比較開放性的討論出來的一些民間想法，怎麼樣銜接回到署內健保卡的運用情境，署內會用這一個月的時間作相關研議，再一起跟政委辦討論第三次的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很謝謝署內——包含衛福部及參與者——取得影像釋出的權限，因為這一些影像公開釋出，包含像在宅醫療學會等等一些民間朋友，因為常常他們是派一個代表參加，但是其他派的人沒有辦法瞭解到去的人，到底有沒有很忠實地傳達他們整個學會或整個社群的想法，其實錄影釋出對於來的人責信地提高，也是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "同樣的，他們也有來社創中心說來協作會議講的這一些，很高興看到衛福部是採取這樣的態度在辦理，因為他們就知道他們的訴求其實有被討論到，以前如果只是看簡單的會議紀錄，其實那一些有沒有討論到，他們完全不知道，也不知道派的代表到底講了什麼，所以很感謝部裡面事後追認取得大家同意釋出的影像，我覺得這個是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我突然記起來為何會有五案，因為還有一個獼猴案，農委會有要稍微說明一下嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "我報告一下，獼猴案本來是農委會自提的提案，後來經過本會跟政委辦公室作討論，模擬與評估以後，覺得在選舉之前，辦理協作會議可能負面的效益會比正面的效益來得大，因此我們當時就建議取消。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們就選後再來想一想這一件事要如何處理，確實sli.do上也有一位朋友提醒9月25日開始，「提點子」就會暫停，所以我們的案源就會兩個月的時間減少。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Peggy問說健保卡案的與會者沒有找政委，是不是有逐字稿，是有錄影的，所以我就在sli.do上再提供，如果覺得錄影看起來太麻煩的話，我們也想辦法弄成逐字稿好了，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有什麼報告案的部分想要提出來的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "獼猴案如果有打算開的話，資料可以先給，我們也可以先讀，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個部分並不強求，因為當時本來就是自提的案子，選後就是由農委會再自行評估。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "報告案看有沒有其他的？是不是往下？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來是9月份的投票協作會議議題，請國發會說明。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "9月份協作會議議題成案部分的建議有兩則，第一則是「動保法的加重罰則」，從平台成立到現在，跟動保有相關的，總共有六則，成案的部分，最近一則是在2018年1月份，是針對動保法修改的建議，先前農委會已經有回應過了。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "第二個是「汽機車燃料稅改隨油徵收」的建議，從平台成立到現在，總共針對燃料稅改革建議有二十一則，成案有兩則，最近一則成案是在2017年1月，交通部有作回應。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "第三個針對未成案納入的部分，我們這一次會選擇這一個議題是，平台到現在將近有三十則是針對交通路口燈號設置，像秒數及一些裝飾設置的建議，因此我們這一次針對這個議題來討論，後面是交通部的回應說明，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家有沒有自行提案？如果沒有的話，我們就看這一些關聯部會，有沒有誰要先說明？" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "這個是提案人建議就虐待動物沒有達到情節重大的行為就要公布他的姓名、照片及強制進行心理治療，以及負擔動物醫療費用等等，需要務實的考量，各類法律裁處平等性，同樣的行為對於裁處強度對於人權影響及投入的行政成本等來作妥善的評估。" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "本會對於提案人的建議，我們說明如下：" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "第一，因為動保的議題，目前受到社會高度重視，本會是在106年4月11日，動物保護法第二次的修正，其中修正第25條之1：「針對虐待動物行為情節重大者，再予以加重裁罰的強度，可處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑，併科新臺幣50萬以上，500萬以下的罰金，而且要得公布姓名、照片及違法的事實。」所以實務上行政機關處理該類虐待動物的案件，最大的困擾是很難查獲行為人或實證，為了更有效向社會溝通善待動物的觀念，本會鼓勵社會大眾更願意提供資料。" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "在生活的周遭如果發現不當對待動物行為的時候，就能夠協助保留事證，並且來舉發，更可以發揮立法的功效，當然這個提案我們開放投票。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實就跟之前動保警察一樣，是一段非常長時間的呼籲，但是也跟動保警察一樣，實務上有各種各樣的困難，我覺得協作會議的重要性之一，就是把實務上的困難讓各界知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他相關部會的朋友們——不一定是這一案——像汽機車的燃料稅；交通部，有沒有意見？沒有也可以。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "有，這麼重要的時候怎麼會沒有意見（笑）？嚇到我了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "這次有兩個，一個是成案的議題、一個是未成案的議題，成案的議題是汽機車燃料稅隨油徵收的部分，請我們的業務單位同仁說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "政委、各位與會單位代表大家好，交通部業務單位在這邊針對汽燃費隨油徵收議題來作說明。其實汽燃費的本質是道路使用費，過去曾經有一次成案，交通部有進行回應說明，汽燃費到底後續要如何徵收，我們有委託研究單位去作研究，也曾邀請成案的提案者來，共同參與我們委託研究當中辦理的一些工作坊或座談會，當時其實有把我們的想法跟他溝通，並且也有獲得他的認同。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "汽燃費為什麼一直沒有隨油徵收？因為徵收的對象是針對車輛，並不是所有用油的用途都必須徵收。所以汽燃費隨油徵收的議題裡面，就會涉及到用路、但不用油，另外一個是用油、沒有用路的這兩個層面。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "用路、不用油的部分，行政院已有制定2035、2040年汽機車電動化，未來這些車輛，隨著燃料技術的進步及電動車的發展，基本上隨油徵收後續將收不到錢。以美國而言，雖然是有隨油徵收的稅，但他們也已經在研議用其他類似像里程徵收的做法。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "另外，用油但是不用路，這其實就包含了像民生或是工業用油等等，都不是使用道路車輛的用途，這部分不能向使用者徵收。因為今天汽燃費是費，為特定的用途，不像所謂的稅，徵收是不分用途，因此汽燃費隨油徵收就要區分對象，這個需要各個部會通力合作，包含身份辨識與用途區分等機制，這些需要耗費龐大的系統建置成本，我們也承認現在的徵收方式不一定是最好的，目前也已請研究單位運輸研究所繼續辦理汽燃費隨里程徵收可行性的研究。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "這裡面其實也會納入一般民眾、產業界等等相關的座談，我們建議目前暫不開放協作會議的討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理由是什麼？你說運研所已經找了民眾，這一些連署人會找嗎？還是怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "現在有再針對另外一種隨里程徵收方式的可行性辦理研究，後續也會有相關的座談，這裡面也可以納入公民參與的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們的意思是，這個不涉及跨部會？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該這樣講，如果隨里程徵收要上路，想必會有跨部會的工作要做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是「研議要不要隨里程徵收」的這一件事，是交通部自己的事，你們會用自己的程序去聯繫提案人，聽起來是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有紅綠燈案。" }, { "speaker": "后振宇", "speech": "主席及各位與會的大家午安，交通部業務單位就路口號誌來說明，大家都知道在現行路口的行車管制來講，都是以黃、紅、綠三色的燈號來管制十字路口或者是所謂路口間的路權問題。國際上都有所謂紅、黃、綠的三色燈號來作處理，至於提案有提到全面裝設倒數計時器的部分。" }, { "speaker": "后振宇", "speech": "就現行的法規來講，倒數計時器並不是強制性的，也就是構成組件的其中一個，只是很單純所謂的輔助設施，在道路上行駛的用路人，應該要遵循的是紅黃綠要行走或者是停止的依據，如果全面要裝設的話，就會造成以現行國人駕駛的習慣來講，看到的並不是三色的燈號，也是會變成數字的倒數，不管是紅燈的倒數或者是綠燈的倒數，這個對交通安全上來講會有一定性的影響，這個過往在倒數計時器要不要入法的時候，都有討論過。" }, { "speaker": "后振宇", "speech": "因此交通部的業務單位建議就這一個議題來講，就紅綠燈來說，並不是必要的設施，因此在這一次協作會議不必要納入討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是立場很穩定，這個並不是必要的設施。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有關於救護車動向警示，這個之前有研究過嗎？" }, { "speaker": "后振宇", "speech": "號誌的目的是讓用路人第一時間很明確看到現在的燈號是什麼，其實救護車的部分是涉及了所謂的技術層面，交通部就是管號誌，這裡面必須靠救護車車上是不是要這個設備，又或者是在號誌的管控上要有所謂接收的設備，這個部分在過往民眾上或者是有一些消防單位會試著研究，我們也有瞭解到。" }, { "speaker": "后振宇", "speech": "每一個號誌都要去加裝，我們建議實務單位要先稍微瞭解各方層面的部分，再來討論是不是現行號誌上都要加裝這個？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "動向跟警示聲音的提案人，並沒有要求所有都加，只是要求擇定地點選擇試辦，跟十項是不同的強度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們剛剛提到十項全面加裝，看起來立場很穩定了。但是救護車的警示或者是聲音的部分，那個看起來只是要擇定地點示範，這個程度你們覺得可以討論嗎？或者是你們覺得這個程度也不想討論？" }, { "speaker": "后振宇", "speech": "其實主管比較偏向在消防部門，依照這樣來講的話，整個地方政府有沒有辦法配合，我們還是要跟一些部會或者是地方政府來瞭解一下道路主管機關在現行的交通設備上，或者是救護年限上是不是有一些可以克服或者是不可以克服的，目前在這一個時間點可能還沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講並不抗拒，但是需要更多的事實？" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "其實我們號誌的資訊應該是這樣子說，如果資訊太多的話，大家忙著看資訊，反而沒有注意到車前狀況，就會發生另外自己的事故及要有救護車來，別人看到救護車的時候，又具有太多的資訊，因此其實應該是說資訊過多對用路人來講是使用道路上的分心，會容易造成其他的交通事故。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "因此我們建議在這一個情況之下，這個部分還要再多作一些思考之後，比較適合進入討論，我們覺得交通標誌有一定的用意，資訊動態都在上面的話，就像很多人拿著google的手機在看導航，不適合開放太多的資訊，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，這樣子大概清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以交通部的意思是說全面裝設紅、綠燈，即使像倒數計時器的這一個部分不想加入我們今天的投票，假裝救護車的動向警示系統的部分，是不是要帶回去研究一下，下一次再來投，聽起來的意思是這樣子，還是怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "下次可以不用投了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是這樣子嗎？可是下次提出的次數只會越來越多，並不會越來越少。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我看了一下GRB，其實研究系統從2012年，這一些研究案就一直不斷在發，所以好像也很難完全沒有實證上的研究。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們之前有一個規則是要不要列入投票，最後還是有部會的PO來決定，所以真的決定不要投就不要投。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，我們從上面拿下來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這一次就只有兩個案子，看是不是就每個人一票？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，在sli.do上有提到本單位來了四位與會者，等一下可以投幾票，來幾個人就可以投幾票，這個是讓大家都來一點人的誘因，如果你覺得這兩個案子都不適合討論或者是不想參與討論，當然你也可以不投票，也不是說不能不投票。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有人提到三十次的紅綠燈，提案是不是驚人？是否有可能從裡面切成你們覺得可討論小塊的討論範圍，我們之後來討論？" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "我補充一下好了，紅綠燈的提案驚人，我們把所有的附議數加起來不到九百，所以每一個附議數都大概十個，因此數量上看起來很驚人，但事實上並不是那麼多的人討論到這樣的議題，光看提案數會覺得好像很熱，但事實上要看提議九個人、十一個人，最多的提案不到五百，所以剛剛稍微加了一下是八百五十九個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我有注意到。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以意思是提案人意志堅定嗎（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上看起來是不同的人提案，像文風都不一樣，所以應該不是匿名帳號，而是大家會不約而同關心這個議題，當然強度並沒有到非常強，我們每個月請國發會挑這個案子出來，就是希望他的政治動員能力沒有那麼強，但是事實上是民生所關心的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請交通部討論一下，並不是這一次投，但裡面有某個形狀的討論範圍你們覺得可以討論，我們下一次再提回來，如果真的覺得回去討論，發現這個每一個不好討論就算了，如果這樣的話，我們就開始投票，現在是42分，我們照例到45分鐘。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "開票結果：汽機車燃料稅改隨油徵收" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "可是我們沒有過50啊？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是56％，跑不掉了。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不好意思，有沒有什麼得獎感言要發表的（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "感謝今天把票投給我們這一些不友愛的同學們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（笑）農委會當然不到50％，但是想討論也可以討論，我們每個月可以有兩個案子，我想排的時間以我的理解，其實隨油徵收、里程徵收已經是一個研擬非常久的案子，所以不管是填利害關係人或者是議題分析表，這都不是主要的問題，主要的問題是如何做出一些有意義、互相對焦的一些結果出來，這真的很希望交通部可以協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "動保法的部分倒是還好，因為跟選舉的關係也沒有非常大、跟稅的關係也沒有非常大，所以強度可能沒有那麼強，但是如果農委會有意願的話，即使不到50％也是跟致翔約時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想投票結果如果大家沒有別的意見，是不是就確認。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確認以後看有沒有什麼想要分享或者是討論的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Peggy想問：「是不是有部會可以提供幕僚單位跟PO所屬單位不同經驗的分享，近期在做三級PO，這個我瞭解農委會已經有了、財政部已經有了，在發生上述情況的時候，如果『Join』平台的幕僚，像資訊或者是綜規或者是PO所屬單位的綜規或資訊，可能不同時是不是有類似的經驗？」我聽起來是這個意思，Peggy是不是這樣？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我補充一下，我們會非常需要其他部會的經驗，過去我們部裡面PO的單位，可能是跨單位的及綜規單位的，綜規同時也是「Join」平台的單位，所以這個體系上在處理比較沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "但因為我們看了其他部會的PO發現PO來自不同的單位，像國會、資訊其實也會有不同的想法，我們最近在處理署PO的時候，也把這個空間打開，讓各連署自行提報PO名單看要落到哪一個單位，舉例有PO是偏公關體系，但是他們Join平台的幕僚單位是在企劃單位，這兩邊之間應該如何銜接起來，這個是我們自己部PO team沒有經驗的。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "因此，我們想要請教其他部會有沒有這樣的經驗可以給我們分享一下，如果願意的話，可以讓我們做一下電話訪談或者是拜會一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是請三級PO有經驗的部會可以分享？像財政部。" }, { "speaker": "楊金亨", "speech": "主席、各位夥伴大家好，財政部這邊說明一下，我雖然剛開始做部會PO是在綜規司，也就是綜規司的專門委員，事實上以PO的要點來講，其實是充分授權，而且是獨立作業，「Join」平台是由綜規司在handle整個部裡行政程序的管制、通報與處理等作業。而協調各單位推展開放政府業務，以我們來講，是由聯絡人PO直接跟各單位的發言人溝通。其實是雙軌制，也就是PO跟「Join」平台的幕僚單位是沒有直接的關聯、沒有互相指揮或者是聽取誰的意見。" }, { "speaker": "楊金亨", "speech": "反而PO是看對事件的意義或者是從民眾的需求，也就是看是不是適合拿出來協作，我的角色是跟各業務單位溝通，也就是把開放政府協作會議的精神拿來跟業務單位溝通，財政部PO的定位老實來講是滿獨立的。至於三級機關的單位，就是我們的署級、各署的部份都設有PO(107年起)，以我個人的經驗，是以他們現在就業務的導向跟民眾的需求、及對機關的影響來思考，會跟「Join」平台的幕僚單位來講是脫離的，以上簡單報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實要點上這其實是兩個要點，也就是開放政府聯絡人要點及公共政策網路參與要點，所以本來在要點上，人事就沒有非扣合不可，只是案源當然是以「Join」來說是滿多的，但是並沒有說人一定要重疊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得農委會有沒有要分享的？好，沒有，看其他的部會也沒有要分享的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果事後願意受到訪談的話，大家都知道如何在PO chat聯絡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我瞭解到現在有逐字稿，所以之後如果有哪一些覺得在頻道裡面討論就好的話，也很歡迎在頻道當中繼續討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有最後要提出或者是分享的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就不到一小時結束，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "How are you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pretty good. It’s 8:00 PM here, and it’s afternoon for you." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Yeah, it is, it is, just had lunch. [laughs] Where do you want to start? Or where do I want to start is probably the question. I think I sent you a document about the catalyst. There’s been many catalysts." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Given where we are, given the huge issues we face, a lot of the decision-making seems to be, not just here, but all over the world, it’s firefighting. It occurred to me that when we make a decision, if we looked at the causes of the issue that we are trying to treat, the first one is, actually ask that question. What are we trying to solve?" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Quite often, that doesn’t get asked. If we stated the issue, rather than just come up with a solution out of a vacuum, we might understand better why our solution is tackling that issue. If we stated that issue, it then might be possible to say, \"Well, actually, is there any other way of dealing with this issue?\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "We’ve got one in the UK at the moment where we’ve got a housing crisis. This is probably a good example. The solution is to build more houses, which sounds obvious, until you start looking at the real reasons why we’ve got the housing crisis." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Actually, it’s because houses are more expensive. People aren’t able to afford the houses. Then the question comes, \"Well, why are they more expensive?\" and so on, and so forth. It occurred to me that if we actually recorded, and publicly recorded, the issues we’re actually trying to address..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Because what happens when it comes down to my locality, the experience we have, we just get a new housing development? The only thing we can really do is object -- we’ve got no choice to do anything else -- or accept." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There seems to be a disjuncture there. There’s a parallel with this when there was a competition...I don’t know whether you were at the global..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Challenge?" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Challenge, yeah, to come up with an alternative to the UN. Lots of questions come up there. You’re not going to create an alternative, again, out of nothing. I was referring back to the Sunflower movement." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The sensible thing to me is, it seems to be, to create another platform where you could actually discuss the same issues, or similar issues. The problem, of course, then becomes is that, generally...I don’t know about Taiwan. I think you’re probably more engaged." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "In the UK, the general population are very disengaged with politics, because it’s just one of those things that happens. We just put up with it. That’s possibly an issue. When you’ve got a local problem like we have with these..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "To put it in context, I live in a village with about 850 houses. It’s evolved over the years. We don’t have roads. We have lanes. They’re the width of a good tractor. One modern tractor completely fills the lane. We’ve got 850 houses connected with these lanes." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s a few, you could arguably say, two-lane, but most of them are one-lane, because they’ve got cars parked along them. There’s a restriction there with the infrastructure. We are currently fighting 250 houses extra." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "It’s not going to work, but we’ve got no alternative. We’ve got no way to debate an alternative. When you discuss it with local people, they say, \"Well, what can we do?\" I say, \"Well, at least, we could just plan what we want and present it. At least we’ve got a starting point,\" but we don’t even have that." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s a gap, to my mind. A gap in our deliberative processes, not just for the way we deliberate, but in the places and how we deliberate. The Sunflower movement was a great example of how it might be done differently." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I set up a group to have a look at this challenge, using the Sunflower model as a mirroring, and then we needed a decision making process. How are we going to make decisions? That’s where I came up with this. Let’s try and hook it in with the system. Are you familiar with systems theory?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, sure." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "If we hooked into it systems theory, we could then get a bigger picture and say, \"Well, actually, what are we doing first, and why are we doing it?\" Then when you’ve come up with a proposal, we can actually examine that proposal and say, \"Well, what are the effects of that proposal? What are the knock-on effects, the unseen side effects?\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "If we record them, then we can debate them at a later stage. We could actually invite experts in, because we’re going to find places where we don’t have knowledge most of the time. [laughs] We could then have this deliberation, get as far as we can, and then say, \"We need experts. We need to understand the data. We need to find the truth.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "What tends to happen in these -- we’ve had a few meetings recently -- they get very heated. People come up with their version of why. It’s blame it on the capitalists, the immigrants, the lazy folk, whatever. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Let’s look at the truth. What are the figures? What are the figures of immigration and emigration? What are the figures for capitalism? Let’s look at the numbers. Within our community, we probably don’t have the expertise, but we can call on the expertise." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "What came out of that was then if we had a deliberating process, say in our village, we recorded it, and we recorded it in a structure that identified the systems that we’re connecting to, any other community, if they came up with a similar issue, could say as soon as they punch in Lapland, building, housing shortage, our deliberation can also come up." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They can see what we’ve done. That could knock on, knock on, knock on, and knock on. I think that’s the core of what I’m trying. We don’t have the software. I’ve been playing with the schema. I’ve got a background in linguistics and database stuff, so that’s happy territory for me." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Again, you come up with, how far do you normalize, and for efficiency, how far do you normalize the data, or how vague do you make it so that it still works? There’s a place to sort out what’s efficient and what’s not efficient." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s the structure I’ve sort of got, but until it’s tried and tested, I don’t know whether it’s the right structure, and we don’t have the software. [laughs] Lots of catch-22s." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’m not quite sure how the system you have the parallel mirror, quite how that works, and whether there’s any prompts for where you’re out of your depth, do you ask somebody else, and how you work with all that, or how you’re structured at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s almost entirely dependent on the size of the group, how well the group knows each other, and how far physically are the group members from each other, how their life experiences overlap. Those three factors can almost determine the tool that we use to facilitate the process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For tightly-knit groups, like 100 people or less, who already know each other, digital tools are just for archival. It’s just for recording, as we said, for like-minded groups, or for followup discussions. What’s really key at that scale is professional facilitation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a facilitator that can get people into the right emotion, which is after everybody share their life experience, their story, their narrative’s told, get into the sense of, \"OK, so, we have very different life experiences, but are there some common values?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This facilitation, we found, was the key to small group who already share some life experience. My main work is on how to create empathy among groups who share no life experience at all, who have no personal connection, to speak of, to each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using language of experts of different domains to put them on a shared mind map, so that everybody can understand the issue at hand, but using the vocabulary and structure that they are comfortable with. It is a little bit like simultaneous interpretation, but not between languages, but rather between worldviews." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main work. For 100 people or less, who already know each other and share the same language, like British English, that’s overkill, to be frank. Normally, a weekly or biweekly gathering, on ongoing relationship, plenty of food, [laughs] which people can bring by themselves, a good recording or capturing device, is all you need." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The capturing device could be, Discourse is pretty popular. For very tight-knit groups, Loomio is even better. There are already ready-made tools for exactly this purpose, for capturing structured data and the context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main feedback I have, because it seems that in your case, most people share somewhat similar experiences." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Until you scale up. Then it gets more diverse, or until there’s vested interests, which is an issue. Going back to my example here, the people that turn up in the meeting are generally the articulate, the confident, the comfortable. Arguably, the wealthy." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The last one’s not so true. The demographic is definitely not representative of the community. That’s the bottom line. My concern, really, is how we get a representative quorum that matches the demographic. That’s the hard part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not sure about statistical representation, because even if you do sortition and get a demographically sound part, that’s just the first half of the problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second half is to get the people who share the demographic who did not get chosen for the sortition, or invited to the quorum, to somehow accept the result as something that they are willing to get along with, that they are OK to live with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No decisions are better without this. Anyone who can claim to be a stakeholder, but did not get discovered, or was not drawn in the sortition, or someone who shares their background did get drawn into the sortition, but they don’t have the rhetorics and oratory skills, and so they lost the argument, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All those different conditions may arise that makes the statistical representation void. Now, of course, if you compare it to the representative democratic system, arguably, you can say, \"Well, but that’s still useful input to the MPs.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To that degree, everybody would agree, like this is useful input. This is useful agenda-setting. This determines what may be overlooked by the MPs and their crew, or the city council and the crew. To this point, everybody will agree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you try to replace even part of the policymaking or budget-making power of the existing representative system, then just statistical representation, or statistical representativeness, is not enough, because it does not factor in, as I said, the capability of propagation back to the community, as well as the still unequal rhetoric skill of the people who did get chosen for the quorum." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Are you sure about that? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am pretty, pretty sure about it. There’s quite a few examples that I’ve personally worked with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We kind of went with a hybrid model, where we’d get stakeholders, experts, so-called representatives from communities deliberating in one room of maybe 30 people, and have a town hall where hundreds, thousands of people can watch the live stream of the experts doing the deliberation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a one-way live stream, because the town hall, there may be people who want to protest. There may be people who want to derail the discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m personally in the town hall part, so they can come to me and make their point, or make their voice heard on a pretty good platform called Slido, S-L-I-D-O, designed for this kind of real-time crowdsourced agenda. The smaller room, which is being broadcasted to the larger room, gets to focus on the discussion at hand uninterrupted." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My role is like an ESPN anchor or something, who explains what happens in the smaller room live stream to the larger room, to the larger town hall people, so that they know in their layperson’s language what’s at play for each play, each move that the experts make in the smaller room." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the experts room, we don’t mean academic experts only. We mean people with live experience, that are generally honored, recognized, and so on. People in the town hall can see that their group of person performing in real time, and informing their discussion through asynchronous and online participation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one of the ways that we try to maintain both the scale and the quality of the discussion. Still, with this arrangement, it accommodates maybe to 1,000 people. Scaling beyond that, we don’t have a very good experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Scaling beyond 1,000 people, we resort back to AI-powered conversations, which is crowdsourced, but it’s almost text only. There is very little supporting material. We can only do the problem discovery part, and check each other’s feelings in design thinking terms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s just first quarter, or a little bit over first quarter, of the first diamond, but everything else, the how may we questions and so on, we still have to do it face-to-face. There is some active research going on in virtual reality and so on, but I would say they are not mature for this purpose for at least another two or three years." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The other problem is that quite often, you’ll...Any technical solution cuts people out, because they don’t have the Internet. There’s still quite a few. I don’t know what the percentage is, but it’s measurable." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Certainly here, there’s a measurable percentage that just don’t have the Internet, and don’t want to have the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly, you could bring the Internet to them, though. You just organize an offline meeting, and then make sure that it’s well-captured, like we did in your island. We capture everything in 360 video, but we had to post-process it and upload it afterwards." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "How do you bootstrap something like that from here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan has a very recent history with democracy. We only had democracy for 30 years. I still remember the martial law. For us, democracy is a very new thing, as is the World Wide Web. Because of this, it’s somewhat easier." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People find that there is so much room to experiment with, they don’t think democracy as just some other process, because this is a very new thing to us. In the UK, far as I understand, because I’m traveling, as I mentioned, to Edinburgh later this week, they share this model of the so-called Highland and Island Development Agency." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which there’s a lot of grassroot organizing, but they still use the social technology to empower the local decision-making, by essentially putting more and more of the building in the commons, and have the decision-making power vested especially to the younger generation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, to people who are invested their life, their career, to the development, the betterment of this region in general, but just not to them personally. I think it’s been quite well-known in the international social enterprise community as a worked model, but I don’t know how well-versed you are in this community organization effort." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’m familiar with it. I know of it, I’ll put it like that. In some ways, the highlands are -- probably because of their situation, and the necessity -- they’ve needed to get their communications. They’re very spread out, and it’s actually difficult to get to be." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They’ve had to facilitate it, in some ways. In many ways, they’ve leapfrogged the rest of the UK, England and Wales. Wales is actually, there’s some interesting things going on in Wales for much the same reason." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "It’s been marginalized, and it’s difficult to get from your neighbor to neighbor. They’re not all next door. They’re not walking distance. They’ve had to leverage technology to actually get things done. The knock-on effect of that is, actually, they’ve got, I think, a more connected, more engaged community with decision-making." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Whereas in the bulk of the UK, we just go, \"Yeah, it’s going to happen. OK, fine. Let me get on with the rest of my life.\" People are disengaged. Worse than that, probably because the only thing that they know how to do is object." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "We tend to do that all the time. That’s our modus operandi. The unfortunate side effect, and going back to the situation here, is that the local council we have -- the parish council, which is the very local council, and then we have the district council, which is the next up -- they’re both seen as the enemy. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s not helpful. To my mind, we need to find some way to break that them and us, so that it’s just us, and it’s not them and us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have anyone in the nearby city council or whatever tried, for example, participatory budgeting or any of those new devices that connects the people who object with people who make the decisions?" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "No, not that I’m aware of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I think the most practical way is just to find a friendly or at least attentive person with facilitation training or with social work training -- that often helps -- and so on, in the local city bureaucracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the council is not helping, often the career public servants are sympathizing with it. They’re largely anonymous, so they probably would not come out and just say, \"I think there should be more local engagement.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Surely, there must be someone in a correct position to start piloting a dialogue to break the ice, so to speak. You can import facilitators from anywhere, [laughs] even from the Highlands and Islands, but it really needs buy-in, at least from a career public servant in the city to start even turning the wheels, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the council, as you mentioned, is generally seen as the enemy, at least some people will still trust folks and people working in the statistics department, people working in the planning department, and things like that, because they are career public servants." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’m guessing on problems, looking ahead, I’m not looking for problems. I don’t know, it’d be an interesting one to, because I can think of a couple of names. It’d be interesting to try, because they might feel there are conflicting interests, conflicting interest. I’m not sure. That’s a good one to look at." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I’m not talking about forcing them to make a change to the decision-making process. I’m just saying, building rapport, just trust people between." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s a good point. I’ll be interested to hear what are your thoughts about the systems side of it. I see that as quite important as a way to explaining the bigger picture to people. We are faced with some huge issues that most people I talk to go, \"Well, what can we do about it?\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I think the only way we’re going to do anything about all these pollution, climate change -- the list is big -- biodiversity, and they’re all connected. They seem to be so big that we can’t do anything about them." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "It’s left to governments to make agreements. We’ve seen what happens when someone like America, for example, pulls out and stops. I’m thinking, if we had a system like the one you’ve got, and was scalable...I think there’s the issue where you’re saying about the scalable, and how do you scale with..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The only way I can see you can actually scale is to have some form of representation, someone on the line. At some level, you’re going to need, because you can’t just have everybody connected, saying. \"We should do this,\" and, \"We should do that.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There is some way of scaling where we can actually engage the public to understand the issues, and then get buy-in for the solutions. That’s the hardest part. I think we’ve got more buy-in, for example, now with plastic. People understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s due a television program. People understand it. Now, the tide is shifting a bit, where people are looking at things encased in plastic and saying, \"Well, actually, I’d rather buy that without the plastic.\" It is happening. Whether it’s happening at the right, sufficient speed, I’m not sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there’s three kinds of scaling I would like to mention. There is, of course, horizontal scaling, scaling out. You’re correct in saying that there needs to be some kind of model, if not representation outright, at least some delegates, like small world network, to maintain when you scale out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s also scaling up, which is a single message reinforced, and more and more people, like in a traditional social movement. For that, you don’t need that much representation. You need an actionable, connected, extensible message. That’s all you need to scale up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, it’s narrow. It’s not all the sustainable development goes here. It would be just one, and a very simple one at that, like the ice bucket challenge, or #MeToo, or whatever. It’s pretty good at scaling up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s the third dimension, which I often mention as scaling deeply, meaning that in places where the cross-sectoral relationship is absent or toxic, one can scale deeply, meaning get fellows from each sector related to that problem to be in issues of the other stakeholders at play by just shipping people around, having fellowship, building rapport, sharing food, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That scales in a deep way, meaning if you have a, for example, university that embarks on a social responsibility program that have their students solve social problems as part of the course, then it actually determines how those students view the world down the line, maybe for the next 30 years or so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Scaling deeply only works, of course, in formative years. It’s very hard to change someone’s worldview without resorting to existential therapy level stuff... though that also works." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying that adults are hopeless. I’m just saying it’s much easier [laughs] if you start in basic education and in the college." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "You can see my doubtful-looking face there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I’m 37 now, so I’m hopelessly optimistic. I don’t think anything will change that as part of my core personality. What I’m saying is that that’s because I joined the World Wide Web and the open source development in its formative days." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That ethic, I carry with me no matter where I go. That’s what I mean by scaling deeply. I think education is a large part of it. It’s not education systems or institutes, per se, but just getting kids in the habit of doing meaningful environmental and social work, and identifying with the purpose, but not the instrument, the skill, or the tools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the third dimension I would like to mention, which also scales, but you just need to wait longer." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That goes back to the education thing, which again, takes times, doesn’t it? Part of my thinking with the process of designing is that, if you collect a lot of people, say, \"We’ve got an issue,\" say, with housing. Take this example, because it’s a real example." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "You actually then say, \"OK, what are the causes of this?\" It gets people thinking. It’s a critical thinking, but at a very basic level. Once that’s started, and then you say, \"OK, well that’s...\" It doesn’t matter whether it is the cause, so much, but if you think it’s the cause, then we can discuss it." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "You might want to discuss it with...Are you familiar with World Café and open...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, of course." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They’ve both got their different advantages, but World Café’s quite useful in that it can help people who don’t feel comfortable in large groups to actually participate. They get little discussions going there." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Once you start looking at the cause, then you can say, \"OK, what’s the cause of that?\" This is the Socratic question. Until you could ask them, or say, \"When we’re doing this discovery, until you can get back to nature says it’s so, then you can find a cause that we can do something about, perhaps, depending on the circumstances.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That opens up a lot of thinking. Well, actually, what we’ve got now is not necessarily a given, so what could we do to make it better? Whether we can or not is not so much important, but it’s the education and the understanding." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Likewise, say, when somebody comes up with a proposal, you could say, \"Well, what are the knock-on effects of this proposal, and what’s actually going to happen, the cost, consumption, materials, and the societal harm, necessarily?\" and so on, and so forth." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "To me, again, I don’t know. I’ve never really tried it yet that’s worked, but I have tried it, and it’s not worked. That’s, in my defense, I tried it as a protest group. When you’ve got a protest group, that’s all they want to do, is protest. They don’t want to hear the other side." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I think if you can get it neutral and say, \"OK, we’ve got this issue. Let’s just get all the people and talk about it.\" Once you start looking at the knock-on effects of the proposals, you can see, because we don’t have much for maneuver now, whatever we decide to do." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I was looking at a thing today about Greece. They’ve got a smart city. They were doing all sorts of things, and they all sound good. I’m thinking about, well, actually, some of that doesn’t sound too good. It sounds like a good idea, and good fun, but where’s the power going to come from?" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Where are the people going to come from? Where’s the employment going to come from, because that’s a big issue. There’s all these knock-on effects. If you get automated vehicles, effectively, you’ve done people out of a job." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I think the structure would help people understand the situation, as much as the bigger picture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In my office in Taipei is called Social Innovation Lab. We have autonomous vehicles on trial. It’s an experiment. They are tricycles. They are just slowish tricycles. I live just close to this Jianguo Flower Market." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They solve a very real social problem, which is elderly people strolling along the central park of Taipei, the Daan Forest Park, going to flower market, bought a lot of flowers, pots, and things they’re like, and they’re heavy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t want to rent a taxi, because it’s just 15 minutes walk’s away. They want to keep shopping. They don’t want to be dragged down. There is just so much they can do with the autonomy, without enlisting their grandchildren or something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Having a tricycle that just accompany them, and you can just put stuff on it -- and at the end of it, you can just hop on it, and drive yourself home -- is actually very helpful. I don’t think it made anyone lose any jobs. I think it is a purely socially beneficial device." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I think it’s worth asking the question. I don’t want to go necessarily on the specifics. On that particular one, you actually said they don’t want to ask their friends and family. There’s a connection. They’ve lost a reason to make that connection. That could have a knock-on effect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they ask their family, but their family, it is just to help picking and carrying stuff, then they can’t do as much real conversation as they would do, if they have invited a normal accompany trip. They’re taking the trivial part out of the connection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think the grandchildren or teenagers or very happy if they are just reduced to a carrier or something. That’s what I mean by equalizing the relationship between humans by automating part of the work that is not seen as a desirable job, but as a kind of filial piety." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know this concept doesn’t quite mean as much in the UK, but something, an obligation to your family. It makes the family dynamic more dynamic, is all what I’m saying. I don’t think it really deprives any social connection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, we’re just on field trial here. What I’m going on is, because this open source technology, and the local students loves to modify the build. It’s slow enough, it collects useful data, open data, but it doesn’t hurt anyone, even if it runs into something. It has the right to road as any pedestrian." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are basically saying these kind of autonomous vehicles are the key to deepen the understanding between AI and collective intelligence. Instead of seeing something that pulls them apart, it ties them together. It may not be the perfect example, but it’s the one that springs to my mind." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "You understand what I was saying about asking those other questions, that it’s useful to ask them, because it’s very easy to get beguiled into thinking, \"This is wonderful\"?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. We really need to do quantitative studies before and after. That’s why we run experiments." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Yeah. Given what we’ve talked about, apart from the human side, where I can find the right people to...Facilitate isn’t so much a problem, because it’s open space technologies. There’s enough people who understand that stuff, probably, to be able to get somebody to facilitate. That’s less of an issue." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Engaging with the authorities on that, I’d have to give that some thought. The deep thing is, or the long term thing is, if I am going to use this structure with issues, causes and effects, proposals, and effects, ratings, is how..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "You mentioned Loomio. It has some of that, but it doesn’t have that structure. It’s getting the software to, what software would be available to...The only thing I can think is to build some, build it from scratch again." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re working on some early prototypes. The one we actually use day-to-day is called real-time board. Real-time board is just Post-It Notes online, collaboratively. It all depends on how you organize those Post-It Notes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That takes skill. We use, actually, the PolicyLab UK policymaking toolkit, and their way of using the Post-It Notes. At least that’s something that your government invented, and therefore should understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the Policy Lab people, the policy toolkit the lab developed is worth looking into, if just for the shared vocabulary. As career public servants, they are required to know this stuff. That’s Policy Lab UK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are developing ourselves -- as you said, in-house -- quite a few software to automate the process of just putting Post-It Notes of the right color on the right points to connect cause and effect, stakeholders, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s currently two efforts in Taiwan, but they are both, I think, being developed in the early stages. One is called sense.tw, which just making sense of something, sense.tw. It’s trying to basically link..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know whether you know the idea of web annotations, which is a web standard that you take a PDF file, a local development planning picture, a website, whatever, and start highlighting and annotating any part of it, without the support from the site administrator. It’s an overlay. What it tries to do..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s a Firefox plugin that does that, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sense.tw is trying to turn that overlay and mark it with the cause and effect lines, as you said, and make a mind map out of it, so you can have a bird’s-eye view. You can also zoom into the actual sources, where there is evidences, facts, or whatever are being presented. That’s sense.tw’s project structure." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That sounds interesting. Again, the thing I think is the first thing that comes to mind there is that, effectively, back to the curated library thing, which is great if you’ve got lots of curators. What I’m aiming for is that the process is self-curating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other thing is Wikum, W-I-K-U-M, Wikum. It’s like Wiki and a forum, so it calls itself Wikum. What it does is that you take an unstructured conversation -- as you said, Loomio, Discourse, Reddit, you name it -- but then it recursively enables people who participate to build mind maps that summarize fragments of discussions, until you have a bird’s-eye picture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unlike sense.tw, it doesn’t come from library or citational sources, but it comes from a live dialogue that takes place in a threaded discussion. The author is now working on porting the same technology to Slack, which is kind of different, because it’s real-time. It’s far more back and forth than a forum, which it tends to be self-containing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they solve it for Slack, then it also solves for capture or transcript of face-to-face, open space technology. It’s like Slack, if you type it down. Wikum, I think it’s also something you can look into." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "W-I-K-A-M?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "W-I-K-U-M." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "K-U-M. We come across that, don’t we?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s from Amy X. Zhang, called W-I-K-U-M." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’m old school. I’m XML Schema, that sort of technology, where it’s predefined, which has its issues, obviously. At some point, you have to define your categories, somewhere along the line. Eventually, you’ve got to give them field names somehow." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s the conundrum, whether you start with field names, or whether you have it general concept fields, as opposed to specific field names. I’ve gone for the specific field names in a general sense. The specific field name would be issue." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Or actually, the specific field name there would be point of interest type issue, because they’re all points of interest on the system or cycle. That’s fairly generic." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The other thing I hope, if I pursue this -- which is another question altogether -- is that you could have a place for somebody who comes up with a solution for an issue, and says, \"Well, I’d like to store this, and enter it into a database, so that people can actually use it, and benefit from it.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They could do that, too, but it would ask them what issue, and what part of what cycle it’s trying to address, so that it could actually act as a potentially global repository. I could talk to you about it for hours." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Another aspect of it is that, going on like the domain name registrars’ model, you could have multiple registrars of this data who could do their own manipulation, if they wanted to, and examine it in their own way." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Again, you and I are talking from a place of a democracy. There are places where they don’t have democracy, and it’s not so easy to do what we’re talking about. The model I think would work in places of slightly more strife, because it enables communities to do it in a protected way, so they don’t have to connect to some central service, or they can actually run it from their smartphones." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Then they can put it in one of these repositories, and they can learn from there. Really, there is the other aspect of it, which I can discuss, if you want to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have a bunch of friends who’s working on it. They call themselves the Secure Scuttlebutt Consortium. They’re in New Zealand, and they are doing something that’s...I’ve pasted you the link, but the idea, very simply put -- and I think Mozilla has some support of it now -- it is exactly as you said, a distributed, secure, offline-capable, LAN-enabled, peer-to-peer social network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have built a lot of infrastructure so that you can do Git development on it. If you can do Git development on it, then you can do everything, really, because then everything else on top of it is just an overlay. If you want to build an application, this could save you some time, is what I’m saying." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "It certainly would. Again, my thinking is that they could output their meeting data is an XML file, validated against a schema, stick it anywhere on any public space. Then the bots, when they arrive, and when some people build them, can search for these XML slugs, incorporate them, and they’ve got the data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The schema we are using for our deliberation is called Akoma Ntoso, which is a proper XML vocabulary for parliamentary, legislative, and judiciary documents. It just so happens that it can work for deliberations as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The flagship product of the Akoma Ntoso movement is also a UK product called SayIt. SayIt is a mySociety project. I keep all my meeting records in SayIt. I think that the good thing about it is that, just as you said, if I have a meeting transcript -- say, this one -- I just append .an after it to get the XML representation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People are not restricted to the visualization. People can do a lot of cross-culture, even, comparisons, like compare between constitutions, compare between judiciary positions, and so on, based on the Akoma Ntoso vocabulary. That’s also a useful foundation to build on." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’ll give you a link to mine." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "This is very early, very early days. I’ll give you the second one. This came from a hackathon in Cape Town meeting, which again, it was very linear. It was done in Discourse, actually, but in OSC days." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They used Discourse within that. Of course, you lose stuff. It disappears. That’s styled at XML, so then what you’re viewing it on, you’ll probably see. If you view source and see, it’s got XML behind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is a pretty good as a way to capture the proposal at the issue level. I think this is pretty good." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’ve got a document I can, which I’ve been playing with, which probably explains a bit more. It’s very interesting talking to you, because this is the first time I’ve talked to people who seem to understand the bigger picture of what’s going on." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’ve done this pretty much for a long time in a sort of vacuum. [laughs] I called it climate change. I have documents on this..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "...can’t we? Have you eaten?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sorry?" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Have you eaten? I’m not holding up your supper." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s fine, yeah. I eat XML tag soup." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "[laughs] That’s good, because most people go, \"XML, it’s dead.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Which it isn’t, of course. It’s very much alive, it’s just not visible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just become like democracy in the old democracies. It just functions in the background." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "In many ways, I had a useful grounding, because I started with PostScript, trying to do stuff on printers. I don’t whether you’ve come across PostScript. PostScript is actually where PDFs came from. PDF is just an encapsulated version of PostScript. This is before the Web." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Then from there, I went straight into XML, because I was trying to do something with the mobile phones. They had a thing called WAP, which again, disappeared. Technology overtook me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I started coding in ’89, so I still remember the days before the Web." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "What were you coding in, BASIC?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back at the time, Logo, of course, but also BASIC, yes." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’ve got friends who started in assembler, which is a form of madness, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I learned that much later. It’s not my native language." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I didn’t even bother." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t remember punch cards, either." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re the relatively personal computerized generation." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "We’re digressing slightly, but there was a very interesting chap called Richard Feynman you’ve probably heard of. He fought for a while to keep one of the old computers going that was analog. He had an analog weather computer." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "For a long time, it was much better, because it was stepless, because it was analog. I think there’s something there that I think we might have missed. I think there’s something useful there about that, because digital, there’s always steps somewhere." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "You’ve got to define your resolution. Whereas analog, it’s at an atomic level, I don’t know, quantum level. I don’t know what level it is, but it’s very deep." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve encountered a fabulous education tool -- I don’t know whether you know it or not -- it’s a computer game called Democracy 3." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "[laughs] Now, you are kidding me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Its user interface is, like, 80 percent the same, similar, as the document as you just sent me. It shows through green lines, reinforcing cause and effect, through red lines, a negative externality, and the speed corresponds to how fast it’s affecting other externalities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has a very detailed policy model of the populations affected by policies. You can also add on some downloadable packs, such as Social Engineering, Clones and Drones, Electioneering, or Africa. I found this as an extremely good education tool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So much so that I made a mod for Taiwan, using our National Development Council’s data, just so that I can explain policies. I think this is a good way, if not accurate for actual policymaking, to get everybody on the mindset of systems thinking." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s very important. The thing I haven’t mentioned, which, actually, I’m not sure it is entirely relevant...Tell me when you’ve got to go, because I can talk to you for another couple of days, I think. When I started looking at this thinking, well..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I like to go back not quite to assembler, but somewhere close, looking at something I’d like to -- there’s a link now. Grab the Google link -- understand the causation, as I said. When you go back, you go back, and you go back, let’s look at our history." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Most people go back to the Napoleonic. They might go back to the Middle Ages. They might go back to the Dark Ages. Actually, to see where the inflection, the inflection point is 10,000 years ago. There’s an awful lot of interest, I think. I don’t know whether it’ll be of interest to you." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s an awful lot of changes -- and there’s a couple of books. I can give you some books as well -- that illustrate what happens. It’s a mindset thing. We have this duality of nurturing empathy, and as you were saying, about getting people on board in that frame of meeting helps in a meeting." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Otherwise, they’re competing for their square, their circle, their space, or their whatever. They don’t know they’re doing it. People don’t know they’re doing it. They don’t know they’re in a war footing or a loving footing. Those are these two footings." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s lots of arguments about why we went from hunter-gatherer to agrarian. The jury’s still out on that. What happened was that suddenly, things had value and worth, whereas they weren’t exactly worthless before, but they weren’t ascribed a value, you could then park it and say, \"It’s worth that much.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "\"My this year’s harvest, I know how long it’s taken me, how much it hurt, how the work, effort, and so on. In my head, it’s worth...\" I’ve got the figure, and I can see what the equivalent is, and it’s mine, which is a very different mindset to, you were talking about the meetings where people bring food." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "If somebody goes to a table, gets a plate, and piles it so that he can’t get anything more on the plate, he’ll get looks from other people. If he started filling his pockets as well, somebody would say something." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Whereas when it’s converted to money and a token, it’s then not connected with any emotional, somehow it seems OK to collect it, hoard it, and gather more. It’s a very different mindset. There’s some really interesting understandings, I think, from the Bushmen." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s a lovely story, another one. This is my favorite subject at the moment, so do tell me when I’m boring you. Otherwise, I’ll just carry on. There’s a lovely story of, say, East meets West. It’s not East meets West, but it’s that sort of thing, where an anthropologist fell foul of the innate rules that he didn’t understand." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Extract for this, yeah. [quiet muttering] This is an extract from a book by an earlier anthropologist, where he falls foul of the unwritten rules. It’s a lovely story. He should have known, really, but he didn’t." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "This is part of his anthropology. He should have really understood what he was doing, but didn’t. They had to explain to him in simple worlds. They have this thing, they call it cursing the meat. It’s a way of, as the previous writer James Suzman, calls it, \"fiercely egalitarian.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They are fiercely egalitarian. Rather than just expect it, they will actually enforce it, which is unusual. I’m not sure you’d get away with that today, in our current culture. It’s counterintuitive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many parallels in that, like recently, Taiwan has a trade agreement with New Zealand, but within their trade agreement, there’s a parallel chapter between the Maori people and the indigenous people here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All of the Austronesian and Polynesian culture, they came out from Taiwan. Taiwan is like the originating place for them, for the language and the cultures. In Taiwan, we have more than a dozen nations of indigenous people, some still pretty much around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have a separate diplomatic track with the Maori people. Recently, just a bunch of Maori people came to visit their heritage, their ancestry. I think part of the lure of this is that a lot of the culture you just described, those fiercely egalitarian culture, in some nations, it’s matriarchal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not without its gender biases, but with good environmental consciousness. The consciousness is permeating to everything they do, not just for the sake of the environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s part of their identity." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All this is without the help of \"sustainable development goals\" or \"social enterprise,\" because that’s part of their national identity. A lot of what we do here in Taiwan is just to honor the nations as they are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, unlearn what we do from a Han ethnic, very much currency, financial, trade-oriented culture, to the ways of living of the still very much living indigenous people. I think that is also one of the very useful ways to think about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then these people, they also, all over Polynesia, and all over Madagascar, I think, all share similar lifestyles." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Did, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still do. Many of them are still reinvigorating. When I came to New Zealand, I visited three times in the past two years. Many different places, they are just revitalizing this, because they realize that may be the shortcut." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Their constitution is the treaty. They have to honor, for example, the Maori people consider a river have a personhood. They actually give that river legal personhood, so they can take place in board meetings and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think all this helps us to anthropomorphize the negative externalities, so that we can all see that we’re harming the river, which is not a river god, like some Shinto belief. It helps to think in Shinto beliefs, and in Maori, and in indigenous cultures." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I’ll throw in a curveball into that lot. When you look at the early migrations, actually, the ones where the Maoris came out of, that branch, and the later Native American branch, they actually caused a human amount of damage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, as humans are wont to do..." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Not so much that. I think it’s because the tribes, if you look at the megafauna loss in Africa, it’s far less than anywhere else. What happened, the megafauna and the humans evolved together. The megafauna in Africa were aware of how dangerous humans were, and they avoided them." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Whereas when the then-humans landed in Asia and in America broadly -- Asia and America, those two migrations -- they found fauna that just didn’t understand what humans were. They just stood there, and bang, gone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The amount of extinctions that we caused outside of Africa is phenomenal. These are the early humans." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "This is pre-Maori, pre-Aborigines. These are pre-where the Aborigines came from." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am talking about maybe 4,000 years ago, so it’s already pretty late in the game, so to speak. It’s mostly cultural migration, not actual human migration." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "The Bushmen, the Kalahari, and that Central Africa stuff, that had taken hundreds of thousands of years to evolve to a stage where they were in harmony, in effect. There was no such thing as an externality. [audio drops out] from this, because if you didn’t, you died." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "There’s a lot of interesting, I think, a lot of very interesting lessons. Actually, probably deeper, there’s probably interesting lessons to look at the different indigenous communities, to see how in balance they are, compared to the Kalahari." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think I’ve seen this word before. It’s a pack of icons for the Ubuntu operating system. They just chose the name Kalahari to honor the Kalahari people. Ubuntu came out of that culture." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "It came out of the Zulu language, yeah. There’s Ubuntu social movement now, as well, which is reusing it. The word ubuntu, I’ve seen it used by social groups that weren’t even aware of the operating system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a good thing, I guess." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "They’ve taken it straight from the Zulu and appropriated it again, without realizing it’s already being used. That’s a funny one. I actually helped somebody build a website, and I said, \"You do realize Ubuntu has other meanings to a lot of other people?\" \"No.\"" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I said, \"You’re going to lose that on the web if your search term is Ubuntu, because you just won’t be found.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like with Salesforce tried to trademark \"social enterprise\", without being aware that it has a meaning in the UK. Then, of course, they graciously gave it back, because, well, there’s just no way they are going to win on search engines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think I have move onto dinner sometime soon." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s good. I think we’ve gotten to the point where we’re at the water cooler." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. You’re OK with us publishing this video or the transcript?" }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The video is fine? OK." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s fine, that’s fine. It’s been good to talk, good to talk. Ask any questions you want down the line. I’m still thinking that this has a place. We could survive without it in the UK. You could survive without it." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "I still think it has a place somewhere. I’ll explore it, and see what comes out of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure it does. First, you are not alone doing this. [laughs] There is many different groups of people doing this. The good thing about open innovation is that it doesn’t have to scale. In open source, 99 percent of projects, they just push on GitHub, and then disappeared, and people just pick up and run with it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t even need to scale in any of the three dimensions we just talked about. It’s just there." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "That’s one comfort." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That’s one comforting thought." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Good. Enjoy your supper." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Take care. Yeah, have a good localtime." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "If want to meet up when you’re in London, just give me a shout, and I’ll hop on a plane." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m still finalizing my schedule, but I’ll let you know." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "It’ll be interesting to hear your take on the Scottish experience. I think you’re going up there first, and then coming down to London?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Interesting comparison, very interesting comparison." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Well, cheers, then. Until next time." }, { "speaker": "William Charlton", "speech": "Cheers. See you. Bye." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家好，非常高興能夠來這邊跟大家作巡迴座談，我們在台北的朋友們也看起來剛剛就位了，所以我們就正式開始。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "正式開始之前，還是提醒一下今天運作的流程，一開始我會先請大家自我介紹，是先從我們這邊的朋友，然後接著是右側的朋友，接著因為台北大家如果事前有詢問相關問題的話，我們會盡可能讓相關部會的朋友們都在台北，所以台北的朋友們會自我介紹，大概告訴我們怎麼稱呼及如果你今天有特別想要談的主題，也可以比較簡短告訴我們今天想要討論什麼樣的主題，我們在進行的時候，之前書面的案子處理完之後就聚焦到大家的主題，我們沒有預設什麼，是大家決的，請大家看一下iPad。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "iPad上面有一個sli.do，大家有瀏覽器可以連到這個網站，進去之後會問你數字，輸入907今天的日期就可以了，輸入之後按綠色的箭頭，你就可以進入一個聊天室。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之後在上面的留言，效力和現場發言是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之後也是會寄給大家，大家一起編輯，可以修訂自己的發言，之後我們大概十個工作天之後，我們會全部公開在網路上，讓之後的巡迴座談朋友們都可以參考，因為我們這邊很多處理的問題不會是只有這邊有，是通案性的，所以巡迴一部分的目的也是要累積每一個部會的朋友都知道以後這一件事可以這樣解決、以後這一件事可以找誰的慣例，大概是這樣子，這個是發言跟留言的結構。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為時間的關係，我就不致詞了，我們就請副分署長跟我們分享一下。" }, { "speaker": "卓翠雲", "speech": "政委、各位與會代表大家午安，很高興參加今天的會議。" }, { "speaker": "卓翠雲", "speech": "我們國有財產署中區分署主要負責中部地區國有非公用土地的出租、出售、委託經營及改良利用等業務。" }, { "speaker": "卓翠雲", "speech": "非常高興能參與今天的會議，因為有幾個林地承租的問題，我們希望能夠提供一些幫助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "嚴佳雯", "speech": "政委、各位與會代表大家好，我在國產署中區分署租賃科服務，今天有一個議題涉及林地租約的部分，所以參與今天的會議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "我是吳素秋，一路以來處理溝通事務上處理得很快，我今天在這裡有一個疑問。我們社區有一個廟宇，從民國13年到現在，以前在日據時代的時候，產權不能放在廟宇，就直接寄放在以前的村長身上，一直扭轉到現在，我們廟宇還在那邊，但是不能修復，因為有繼承，所以就過戶給我們，我們以前的保證人即村長已經往生很久了，為了要過戶，但是就沒有辦法處理，我去年講說不要再繳稅，因為幾十年來都在繳稅金，然後就一直沒有辦法過戶，去年不繳稅金，然後就返回國有。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "又經過十五年，我們的廟宇快要壞掉，我們很急，希望在這個機會能夠幫我們處理，因為不會有爭議。那一些傭人或者是長工都會有很多兒女，因此問題很多，請政委幫我們處理這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "廟宇的名稱？" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "慈賢宮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李思賢", "speech": "政委好，我是彰化大有社區的社區青年，我叫李思賢，很高興有這個機會參與。" }, { "speaker": "陳忠盛", "speech": "政委好，各位與會貴賓，大家午安，我是彰化喜樂小兒麻痹關懷協會理事長，我們在十年前，彰化縣政府立案的工廠，我們在這十年來得到很多天使的幫忙，整個團隊達到一百二十多個工作夥伴，我們一直希望朝向更多的社會企業，能夠吸取更多的社會能量，希望透過這樣的機會，是不是有機會讓特別是庇護工廠，或者是所謂的NPO組織，怎麼樣可以導入到所謂的社會企業，可以有更多的機會來幫助需要的身障朋友，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們現在有什麼服務或者是產品嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳忠盛", "speech": "包含咖啡豆，自己烘焙跟生產，透過美國及教會系統幫我們引進到美國最大的網路電商，也有在談跨境電商，最近也有跟京東談品牌銷售，所謂的店商方面，或者是透過AI的系統，讓朋友有更多生活上的輔助與協助，我們一直很有信心，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們自介是歡迎打廣告，打廣告是無所謂的，這樣比較好，因為大家比較認識你。" }, { "speaker": "武其融", "speech": "政委、各位夥伴大家好，今天帶著學習的心來，長期以來五年在做有關於眷村文化保存，這個眷村比較特別，其實95年的時候已經辦理了，現在剩一個青年團隊跟協會做有關於保存的工作。因為現在裡面的房舍殘破不堪，地也歸屬於國防部，我們也想多認識大家一點，我們現在整理每一棟房舍，也希望可以結合很多團隊把能力挹注在眷村當中。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "面積多大？" }, { "speaker": "武其融", "speech": "總共分為四個村落，所以有建國一至四村，範圍滿大，因此做起來不太容易。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "實在是滿大的挑戰。" }, { "speaker": "武其融", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "石佳蓉", "speech": "政委好、各位貴賓大家好，我是大有社區的社工員，主要負責平常社區關懷據點長輩的日常代領，因為我們的理事長有推老有所用的理念，今年在我們的鼓勵下，有到其他彰化縣內的社區，有八個社區，讓長輩可以用以前傳統的一些經驗、記憶，讓他們寫成一個活動，我們藉由這個活動推廣給一些國中小或者是遊客過來參與。" }, { "speaker": "石佳蓉", "speech": "我今年有八個社區的計畫，我今天會來的原因是社會企業跟社會創新，我們對年輕人是很嚮往的，因為我是臨時加入的，我希望在會中可以學習到很多東西，也希望可以帶回去，希望可以讓知識加成，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實談這一些題目，如果能夠即時解決是很好的，很大一部分是讓大家集思廣益，就是讓大家彼此認識，有很多可以互相支援的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們從另外一頭講過來，啊！還有一位，對不起。" }, { "speaker": "黃書姍", "speech": "政委好、大家好，不好意思，我是彰化市的咖啡館的店長，我們店就在美學館的山下，我們自己有辦一份地方性的小報，陸續有跟店周遭的學校及團體合作，我們有申請到文化部的經費，有辦了一場文化部青年就業的費用，也有辦了一場彰化的兒童藝術季，在今年4月孔廟。" }, { "speaker": "黃書姍", "speech": "我們會串聯很多在地地方性的店家，大家透過辦不同的活動，增加大家在彰化消費的機會，並且有機會把工作的場域留在彰化。" }, { "speaker": "黃書姍", "speech": "我們目前串聯了二十五個店家左右，大部分的活動都是以民間自籌、自辦為主要的出發點，一方面我們不太懂核銷，二方面是我們對於申請這一塊，其實有滿多的難處，比如適逢選舉年或者是什麼年，大家其實在活動的辦理有一些訴求，一方面不要把訴求點分散掉，二方面是在辦活動的情況之下比較高，現在是以自籌的情況為主。" }, { "speaker": "黃書姍", "speech": "今年10月會在彰化市郊，跟這邊二十個廚師左右合作，會有餐會、市集，也會邀請一些在地的小農為土地發聲，還有他們為何會願意投入農業的契機，因此之後如果大家有機會，我們可以聊一下，或許有機會，大家可以做一些串聯，在下面的公園路一段50號，有機會大家可以過來坐一坐。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也許大家順路就可以經過。" }, { "speaker": "王佳以", "speech": "政委及各位大家好，我是台中林業生產合作社的監事，我叫王佳以，我們合作社剛好剛成立，我們在做土地的清查。發現有很多的法規，有遇到很多的困難，我們需要政委大力協助我們，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "唐政委、各位與會的長官及朋友，大家好，我是台中林業生產合作社的理事主席，今天討論的提案，我們涉及的問題最多，是歷史遺留的問題，我們慢慢再討論這一些內容。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我再次提一下我們合作社的願景，我們的目標除了推廣全民造林,其實要做到林業產業鏈的完善及林業產業鏈循環經濟體的開發及利用，我們都知道林木是全臺灣目前唯一擁有最龐大的資源，除了砂石之外，可能可以再生的資源只有林業的資源，而且土地60％基本上都是林地，所以是臺灣所擁有最大的資源。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們希望合作社成立之後，不但是推廣全民造林及企業認養，更重要的是我們要推動碳權，全世界各個國家，哪怕對岸那個地方，碳權理念都已經超越我們了。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "為了臺灣整個未來的長遠發展，臺灣必須有自己的資源，而且是可持續發展的資源，唯一的資源就是林業，所以我們是基於這樣的理念成立了有限責任台中市林業生產合作社，希望引起政府及全民的重視，能夠有很好的前瞻來發揮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們的社員有多少人？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們是8月31日創社，已經有四十六個創社社員，我們想把基礎的事完成，預計半年之後再進入第二批社員的招募。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李孟勳", "speech": "政委好、各位長官大家好，我是樂齡照顧服務勞動合作社李孟勳經理，我們合作社主要是針對照顧服務，在今年也轉型到長照2.0的居家服務，很高興有機會來這邊互動，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "政委、各位與會貴賓好，我是台中市政府社會局承辦人員。內政部有特別跟我說找了兩個合作社來，因此這個議題是我拜託他們寫的，因為花博要到了，有送一個小禮品給各位，如果大家有興趣的話，也可以一起來參加。" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "其實在合作社的部分，我們也有找一些農民看能不能到我們花博展區設一些農業性的攤位，因為合作社是我去年才剛接觸，其實合作社都沒有讓大家知道，如果時空背景是非常好的社會企業，但是其實之前他們比較沒有空，我想說趁這個機會可以讓大家多認識一些合作社的精神，也鼓勵大家按照合作社的精神幫助一些弱勢，謝謝大家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實2015年合作社法的修法，也就是合作社界希望可以鬆綁，也就是各個用途的合作社、準社員等等，就像準公司法鬆綁。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在上次巡迴座談的時候，很多朋友希望把現在一定要有工商登記的法規、補助、獎勵等等的措施，接下來會做系統性的盤點，看哪一些可以放寬，這樣合作社就可以很自然進來，這個是上次巡迴熱門的主題，今天說不定有人會再提，我們就先講我們已經在做了，請繼續。" }, { "speaker": "方香媚", "speech": "各位來賓大家好，我是台中市政府農業局林務自然保育科的方香媚，主要辦理的是農業局林地的部分，今天來參加，看看能不能協助釐清一些議題的部分，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "徐宏銘", "speech": "政委好，我是台中政府農業局林務自然保育科的科長，我姓徐。剛好王理事長成立了田野合作社，有很多的願景，我跟他接觸覺得他們的理念都非常好，他們來參與是看這個部分我們是不是能夠協助，然後儘量配合，以上。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "政委好、各位與會嘉賓大家好，我是台中環保科技處理設備利用合作社，這個名字聽起來很饒舌，講白話一點是醫療廢棄物的清運。我們的社員大概有一千七百多個，大部分都是在台中的診所，有中醫、牙醫、醫檢，我們現在其實有遇到幾個問題，第一個是醫療廢棄物的清運，其實對國家、民眾的健康很重要，對基層的診所也非常重要。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "我們成立合作社的目的是把醫療廢棄物得到妥善的運用，但是我們目前面臨幾個問題，第一個是場地的問題，我們之前是在工研院的場地，後來因為搬遷，搬到大雅這邊，我們之後這個場地其實是租的，因此我們的租期其實是113年就會到期。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "我們也有在談跟他購買或者是繼續承租，第一個是土地使用的問題。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "第二個問題是我們之前有一個焚化爐，後來因為時間久了、廢爐了，後來沒有一個自己的焚化爐，其實在各地都有多元性跟自主性的垃圾處理，這個重點就是自主性，很多醫療院所最大的痛就是後端的處理設備都是在別人焚化爐業者的手上。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "我舉一個例子來看，合作社的清運成本，10公斤是850元，但是其他業者是3至5公斤為1,300元，等於是三至四倍，而且這個是想長就長，這個完全沒有自主性。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "如果沒有拿到醫療廢棄物的清運，其實你的診所就開不下去，這個其實對所有的醫療，並不是臺灣的問題，在全省都一樣，其實是一個非常棘手的問題，如果沒有這個資料就沒有開業了，因為市場供需的問題，而沒有辦法說yes跟no，這個是第二個問題。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "第三個問題，因為我們是收醫療機構，並不是收醫事機構，他們在從事長照，像居家護理所是醫事機構，跟醫療廢棄物其實也是要處理的，但是他們並沒有辦法加入，而且加入的成本是划不來的，因此很多換管的病人，常常看到大甲溪上面，常常會有人會管塑膠袋包起來，然後丟在那邊，有一些單位是說這樣可以處理，但是其實這樣不能處理，那個是醫療廢棄物是有感染性的，因此在法規上可能也要幫忙，我們也可以收一些醫事機構，甚至有一些醫療機構。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "台中長照推行的時候，很多尿管等，其實若亂丟其實會造成社區或者很大民眾的健康危害，這三點要請政委幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛有很多朋友加入。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "其實是我們的林瑞瑤經理及劉會計。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "幸會。這邊的朋友要不要介紹一下？" }, { "speaker": "曾玉美", "speech": "大家好，我是新竹縣禾意照顧勞動服務合作社看護曾玉美，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "政委、各位長官，大家好，我遲到了，其實我們是不會遲到的，我們是在八卦山，以為是在彰化，所以坐高鐵到彰化，我下高鐵之後問計程車，他說很遠，但司機很好，還是趕路趕過來，但我們還是遲到了。我是禾意照顧服務勞動合作社的經理，我姓張，另外兩位是派駐醫院的督導。我是把問題提出來嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡略描述就好了，還有你們社員有多少人？" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我們的社員有兩百多位，但是進進出出，首先第一個是要辦入社、入股，然後要成為我們的社員，我們才能指派工作，我們沒有非社員。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我們現在面臨的問題有兩個：第一，我們在去年投標國防部國軍桃園總醫院的「照顧服務標」，本來一切都沒有問題，以前那個案子也標過，我們也做過，但是這一次突然增加了一個就業服務許可證，就業服務許可證裡面還要有人力仲介的項目，也就是就業的項目，我們當場傻在那邊，我們不是人力仲介公司，合作社跟人力仲介公司是兩回事，怎麼要我們付這個？結果開標的時候，說我們不符合這個，就說資格不符，然後就把我們淘汰掉了，而我們馬上也有跟他反映。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我們剛開始看到標單的時候，我們理事主席就有向院方反映說：「我們是縣政府立案的合作社，不是人力仲介公司。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們也有稅籍登記？" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "有。他說這樣就可以了，結果開標的時候說不可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你早一點，我剛剛就有說我們正在系統性檢討這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "謝謝唐政委，您對這個領域非常熟悉，因為你說要把它廢掉，是不可能的，但是我們想說未來就不要變成一個慣例，以後每一個都要附這個(就業服務許可證)，那就把合作社社員的生存權排除在外了。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我們用公文向內政部陳述，內政部轉到工程會，工程會又丟到國防部，而國防部又踢回給工程會。我們直接向工程會提出的，請他解釋，而工程會也說這個是國防部的事情，所以就像足球一樣踢來踢去，完全沒有辦法得到解決。因此不得不我們就要拜託尤美女立委幫我們協調，我們的主管機關是內政部，其實我覺得內政部很想努力想解決，但是相關部會不太理會，所以一年多來沒有協調出一個結果。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我們很無奈、無力、無助，我們請新竹縣政府勞工處函轉勞動部解釋，勞動部回覆:勞動合作社的功能性質與人力仲介公司[有間]，不能適用在就服法的相關規定中，可是木已成舟，也沒有辦法改變事實，我們希望不要變成慣例、不要變成案例。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我昨天還有再跟工程會聯絡，工程會強調問題在於勞動部，勞動部要保障勞工權益、增加勞工智能發展、改善勞工生活品質等。但是不能排除合作社社員的生存權，社員也要改善生活、提升其生活品質，而這兩個是不衝突的。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "工程會於102年有一個範例，即「合作社除外」，但是這一條被刪掉了，刪掉之後所衍生的問題就是甄選單位任意加上一些條件，讓專業的合作社無法進場。像退輔會，就要簽保障勞工權益切結書、國防部要就業服務許可證，否則視同不合格，如此無視合作法的存在，是不是把合作社整個排除在外？表面是公開招標，內容卻暗藏玄機，讓合法經營的合作社無法進場，很明顯是不當限制、不公平的競爭。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "合作社的運作與人力仲介公司根本是兩回事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是兩件不同的事。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我在資料上看到要合作社提供商業會的會員證，我直接想講一句話，「荒唐」，是真的「荒唐」，歸結原因，都是工程會把[合作社除外]的範例取消後，各單基於本位主義，任意附加條件，致使合作無法進場，影響社員生計。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們正在系統性整理。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "謝謝唐政委，因為關係到我們勞動合作社的生存權，我們被逼到角落了。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "目前在台大新竹，他們瞭解什麼叫合作社，所以他們很尊重，我們也非常樂意配合，現在跟台大新竹的互動很好，因為他真的瞭解合作社是什麼，不會逼我們用勞動基準法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我一開始有講，請投影我的螢幕，我們這邊有一個網站，叫做「sli.do」，如果大家有手機或者是其他的上網設備可以連上去，輸入907，井號不用輸入，就可以進入匿名的狀態，效力等同於發言。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接著是各部會的朋友們也會有一些參考資料，當我們牽涉到特定法規命令時，網址就算唸出來，大家也不一定可以記得，因此我們鼓勵大家把網址或者是全名往這個上面放，等於大家事後可以作參考，所以效力是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這邊講的每一句話，等於是大家講的每一句話，都會馬上整理成文字稿，事後大家都會收到，一起編輯個十個工作天之後就會公開給下一個巡迴的人知道，所以我們在這邊解決問題不會是個案，每一個都是通案，先跟大家講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先請秀玲介紹一下，然後再請台北的朋友們（介紹）。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "大家好，我是經濟部中小企業處科長秀玲，很高興今天大家從北到南，齊聚在中部，象徵著社會企業想要解決社會想要解決因為環境、永續發展困擾的問題。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "其實在社會創新行動方案於8月時通過了，其實最主要的進步是以往從社會企業進展到社會創新，社會創新就像今天這樣子，不限制它的組織形態，因為我（任職於）經濟部，可能來的都是公司行號，如果是勞動部的話，就有NGO、NPO，合作社的力量在今天有體現。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "其實我們分了六大分享去做：" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "第一個是價值培育，價值培育最重要的如我剛剛所說的，也就是強化合作社的專業職能，還有常常聽到大學所講的USR，即在地社會創新的實踐。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "另外五個面向當然是資金，大家要如何行銷、法規調適，像政委現在要致力於把合作社相關的，也就是稅籍登記，是不是把中小企業服務的對象，有可能以後是新的客戶。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "另外，有關於我們在國際上作社會創新跟符合永續的概念讓國際知道，其實非常躍進，所以我們其實在今年5月的時候，有在台中辦理很棒、溫馨社會企業的論壇，我們也希望透過這樣子，讓國際的友人知道臺灣在議題上的努力。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "我今天業配的是我新做一個常用的QR code，我剛剛在業配的時候就跟大家講說「什麼是社會創新？社會創新是什麼？」我有做了一個簡單易讀的簡報，我不能稱為「懶人包」，而是「易讀包」，大家會後可以掃描，來瞭解社會創新推動的理念為何，我們也有把推動行動方案的核定版放在裡面，大家可以知道是什麼情況，如果大家認同這樣的理念，把有跟經營社區、勞動條件的改善、環保議題訴求的夥伴一起邀請作為我最上方也一個「社會創新企業登記資料庫」，不限你的組織形態，所以不會擔心，我不會說不是企業，就不能來登入，掃這個QR code就會有這樣的訊息。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "每個月我們同仁很用心，因為有登入的認同理念，因為是有黃頁的功能，可以有合作社的理念、徵求社員的理念，其實現在大家都按月，我們會做一些專刊，未來大家加入的時候，這個專刊會越來越豐富，我們會用電子型錄的方式發行到各個中大型企業走CSR及國營事業的通路，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想因為時間的關係，我們有兩個小時的討論時間，是不是先請台北的朋友們先大略跟我們自我介紹一下，如果對於剛剛大家提出來的問題是已經有一個初步的想法，也很簡略地跟我們說明。" }, { "speaker": "陳梓萍", "speech": "政委、各位先進大家午安，今天在台北的分場有十三個部會在這裡，我在這邊請大家簡單自我介紹。" }, { "speaker": "陳玫霖", "speech": "政委及現場的各位先進大家好，我是原民會的陳玫霖，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "郭濠維", "speech": "政委、各位現場大家好，我是外交部國際事務會郭濠維，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "古惠茹", "speech": "政委、各位好，我是文化部文化資源司的古惠茹，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張純嫚", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是衛福部社會及家庭署，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉子瑄", "speech": "政委好、各位大家好，我是合作及人民團體司科員葉子瑄。" }, { "speaker": "張家榮", "speech": "政委好、各位好，我是內政部合作及人民團體司張家榮。" }, { "speaker": "黃若瀅", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是交通部黃若瀅。" }, { "speaker": "蔡明玲", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是交通部觀光局蔡明玲。" }, { "speaker": "紀秉宗", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是勞動力發展署紀秉宗。" }, { "speaker": "陳言博", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是經濟部商業司陳言博。" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "政委好、台中的朋友大家好，我是環保署簡任技正黃輝榮。剛剛有限責任臺中市環保科技處理設備利用合作社所提的三個問題，簡要回覆說明如下：" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "第一，有關於土地取得的問題，建議可向目的事業主管機關詢求協助。" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "第二，考量廢棄物處理價格受處理廢棄物性質、處理方式、技術、委託處理數量、後端衍生廢棄物去化或產品銷售價格等因素影響，宜由廢棄物清理市場之自由競爭運作。" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "第三，貴合作社為依據衛福部「醫療廢棄物共同清除處理機構管理辦法」設立之醫療廢棄物共同處理機構，其許可處理之醫療廢棄物種類，應依許可證登載內容辦理。" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "以上簡要回覆。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為第二個，我想提案人還滿關心的是自有的、一個特定焚化爐的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外你剛剛說目的事業主管機關，指的像衛福部之類的，是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們就先繼續自我介紹。" }, { "speaker": "陳凱中", "speech": "政委好、台中的朋友大家好，我是環保署的陳凱中。" }, { "speaker": "黃志堅", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是農委會的黃志堅。" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是林政管理組范家翔。" }, { "speaker": "李建霖", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是造林生產組李建霖。" }, { "speaker": "黃伃君", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是教育部青年發展署黃○君。" }, { "speaker": "葉懷仁", "speech": "政委好，大家好，我是國發基金葉懷仁。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是工程會企劃處劉慧君。" }, { "speaker": "陳梓萍", "speech": "以上介紹完畢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們來處理書面提案，第一個問題，我們於事前已經請包含國產署、林務局及市政府農業局的朋友先給一個書面的回答，這個書面回答有的時候因為公文，所以裡面有一些特定的用詞，很可能會需要比較進一步的解釋，大家才能達到比較一致的理解，像林務局這邊是關於換約程序的部分、無法換約的個案要請東勢林管處瞭解及輔導之後等等的部分，具體的意思從合作社這邊看起來是什麼，還是要請林務局的朋友們協助闡述一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我們通常處理的方法是，先請本來的提案單位先就這個書面回應裡面有沒有哪一些特定的詞句或者是想法覺得難以理解，或者是沒有對到你們的問題，又或者是真的有解決，比較想要知道下一步等等感受性的回應先作陳述，這樣子之後我們再請所有相關的單位在台北的朋友們來回答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先請有限責任台中市林業生產合作社的朋友們，看你們對於書面有沒有什麼初步的想法？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們這個標題跟我原來提出來的內容有部分錯亂掉，我原來提到第一個提案的部分是，「本社除了滿足本社社員需求之外」……不好意思，一整理跟原來的稿是有一點錯亂。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "沒關係，我們就依據這邊來提好了。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "因為我們合作社成立，我們有一個理念，合作社的成立不是跟社員、產業去爭利，合作社的成立是彌補所有產業鏈不足的地方，我們希望將台灣林業的產業鏈能夠重新建立起來。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "依據這個原則，因為臺灣禁伐樹木已經四十年，所以很多配套的產業鏈已經沒有了，而我們的產業比較特殊，我們新社是臺灣菇類的主要生產基地，我們提供這麼大量的產品給菇類使用後，菇類產生很多的廢棄物，其實廢棄物有汙染的問題，因此我們希望將整個產業鏈不足的地方，把它彌補起來，從事林業推廣造林，這實務上是沒有問題的，最嚴重的是很多法令不切實際,已過時而限制林業發展,影響到林農的生存。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "造林一直到砍伐及加工利用，面臨的是土地(特定目的事業用地取得)的問題。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "因為大家提到「特別目的事業用地變更」的處理是相當繁瑣的，以前我們在二十幾年前成立產銷班，大家還是比較團結，受到政府的愛戴，而且也有給我們補助，我們蓋了集貨場及設施，連承辦業務的人都說別去申請了，說我們的手續很繁瑣，造成產銷班集貨場等設施也沒有申請，可是社會是在進步的，民眾不只農民，大家都希望合法，但是法令太過於繁瑣，造成他們沒有辦法合法、他們很迷茫怎麼做都不對，到最後就不要做了，不申請合法都沒事，一申請問題就來了；尤其特定目的事業用地，其實我們的社員已經申請兩年了，到現在還是遙遙無期。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們合作社成立前就重視林業(副)廢棄物的處理，從外面蒐集資金及合作的對象，其實都已經有一定程度認同，但如果拖三、五年都處理不了土地的變更來建設林業產業鏈循環經濟體園區,則所有的願景、想做的事都沒有機會做了。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "政委,不只是我們合作社，其他合作社如果是公益、長遠發展考慮的，是否能夠採用專案的方式來協助大家取得土地？包括環保事業利用回收合作社都是一樣的，其實牽涉到經濟的事情，我們自己來處理，但是牽涉到各部門法令的事情真需要政委為我們協助，對我們來講政府是一體的，不管今天是哪一個部門，對我們來講都是政府。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "因為政府的組織會裁撤，縣市會合併，然後人也會調動，如果沒有統籌專案辦理，這樣我們就永遠推不下去了，因此我們呼籲、也希望政委能夠重視。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "畢竟合作社是一個弱勢團體的組織，政委才開這會議協助我們合作社，既然是弱勢團體，我們也有我們不足的地方。很高興今天有這個會議，坦白來講，政府單位對於合作社這一塊確實很照顧，而且也很願意協助我們。但是地方主管的這一些長官，他們的權限也是有限的，部門又各自為政,希望藉這個機會政委可以幫我們的忙，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣聽起來，一共有兩件事：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個是如果去辦理特定目的事業用地過程不是很明確的話，會曠日費時，而且辦理的過程中，會額外造成行政負擔，因為這樣的關係往往不辦理了；但是不辦理的話，很多事情等於是做黑的，所以這個是第一個想要解決的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個比較是個案性的，我看你們這邊有列出相當多租約尚未辦理完成的實際案例，然後問因為他是公益性質或者是循環目的，然後用專案的方式，這個我沒有聽得很清楚，是不是整批辦理？或者怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "第一點跟第三點有重疊了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們可以一起看。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "第一點是針對特定目的事業用地提到的，這裡講的第二個問題是租約的問題，政委容許我2分鐘的時間，我把這個歷史過程介紹給大家瞭解一下。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我想大家後續都知道農民運動現在已經銷聲匿跡了，農民運動的前身怎麼來的？是為了土地的權利，這個土地為什麼會發生問題？這一些山裡的先民，從日治時代甚至更早的時候，到山裡砍樹、開墾，從日治時代以前就擁有這些土地，我手上還留有日治時代的農民他們繳土地租金的收據及國民政府過來之後，民國38年收37年度土地租金的收據，但 國民政府來了之後開始要納管，過去連土地的地籍圖都沒有，先民的開墾後自發畫地籍圖，當時政府還沒有管理，民間組織管理，每一筆土地花100元，當時這100元是很大的，把地籍圖劃好來，避免鄰居間會有這糾紛。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "政府再憑這個地籍圖給土地納管，過去耕者有其田及公地放領政策，當時山區農民沒有讀書，哪懂？認為多少地主的地被政府充公，然後又放給這一些佃農，他們看到的是這個事實、他們知道、理解這樣的事，而自古以來我的祖先在那邊種得好好的，怎麼政府來了又要收租金以外，然後還要放領買回去，地是我們的，為何還要放領呢？所以很多農民都沒有這個放領理念。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "很多農民害怕租約，就怕被政府充公,在此我講一個事實，原始地籍圖上可以看到原來的土地是誰的，都登記得很清楚；再者當時的測量設備,技術都很差，與現在土地重測的落差甚大， 當時這一些土地是租約的而承租的面積比實際經營少很多，因此我問了一些耆老，他們跟我說因為當時很多政府管理人員跟農民說，這個地這麼陡，所以就少算了面積，當初是基於照顧農民,因為當時的租約是很貴的，民國30幾年、40幾年、50幾年，動不動就交了幾千元的土地租金，當時農民的稅負其實相當重，(我這邊有從日本時代一直到民國68年農民交租金的收據)" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "可是延續至今卻造成民怨，現在政府有很多出租土地，在地籍圖明明是1.5公頃的土地，在承租的時候說很陡不要算，就算1.2公頃，結果另外的3分地產生糾紛了，你說另外那3分地究竟是屬於誰在經營？也沒有別人，政府也不願意租給我們。到底該不該屬於農民的？自古以來這個土地也是農民的。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們過去這一些租約的問題，為何會這麼複雜？從以前縣政府管理的土地，省事業的土地，一直到當時黃仲生（音譯）縣長在的時候，把土地回歸給國有財產局，國有財產局又將其中的林業用地撥到林務局，因此各個單位在紙上的答覆都是事實，但是農民面對這麼多的部門單位怎辦？甚至我剛剛講了，各個單位在經管期間確實沒有租賃問題是事實，但是台中縣府如何回復？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "但是我們的資料，是從林務局的電腦上看到，原登記這塊土地的地主是誰？這不是私有土地，而是國有土地，只是一個經營權，只是山裡面的農民，幾十年下來只為了一個租約，包括我剛剛講的農民運動，裡面有一個農民已經往生了，往生前兩天還打給電話給我的社員，說要爭取什麼土地權利，但過了兩天人就死了遺憾終生。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我聽到他們說這一些過程，真的很可憐，從他們自有的土地到變成政府來管理，轉而變成政府的地，到最後這一些土地也不是他們的，他們問了一句話，也就是現在政府的轉型正義在哪裡？原來是屬於老百姓的東西，後來變成老百姓是非法佔有，這個事情是不是請政委？謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣非常清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實第一個跟第三個等於是同一件事，只是一件事的兩個側面而已。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛事實性的部分，也就是書面資料你覺得都是事實，現在的問題只是好比像林務局是如果台中市政府可以提出來當年有效的證明文件，憑那個換租約一定沒有問題，接著是台中市政府或者是相關調查之後，他們不一定有你當初覺得應該有的那一些文件。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我補充一下，林務局的電腦檔案裡面擁有早期台中縣政府管理時的資料，林務局的檔案當中可以知道這一塊地的原地主是誰，我覺得部門業務移交到誰的手上、誰應該要來處理。畢竟現在公務員很害怕，大家都不想擔責任，這個我理解，因此請政委理解，因為原始檔案資料在林務局、國產署也好，最終管理土地的部門，原始電腦檔案是有的，應該開放給我們查詢以杜絕民冤。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們現在查得到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "查不到，我們到林務局的電腦上不讓查。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們希望政府各部門都能夠統一承認這樣子的一份調查資料，而這一份調查資料，如果林務局國產署有那一套系統，就出示那個系統，如果那個還是跟大家記憶不一樣部分，相信林管處是可以個案輔導，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不曉得林務局的朋友有沒有要補充的部分？" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "剛剛講的部分，可能要分兩個層次來講，你剛剛講早期先民有土地的所有權，但當時沒去登記，後來權利被登記為國家所有，這涉及產權更正登記的部分，這個是內政部地政司之權責，臺灣土地登記有其制度，應要求地政司從制度去作處理。" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "至於剛剛提到租約的問題，現在不管哪一個機關移交，比如以前的台中縣政府或國產署移交林務局管理的土地，現在有的是使用人的清冊，並不是土地所有權人，因為所有權人都是中華民國，屬於國有土地。如果早期在台中市政府管理的時候，或者是國產署管理的時候，有訂定租約或者是經原管機關認定曾經發生過租賃關係，在土地移交林務局接管以後，我們會承受這個租賃關係。" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "合作社這邊，提到幾筆新社區的土地，這幾筆土地，在國產署移交給我們的時候，就沒有租約記載，有一些是在國產署經管的時候有做公告收回，因為國有林地在78年以後，政策就是不再出租，因此現在國產署移交過來，也沒有辦法再出租，這個部分就是回到佔用的處理。另外，有關台中示範林場的部分，也是在林務局與台中市政府協調後，市政府承認早期的示範林場租戶有收過租金，並認同這是租賃關係，所以林務局後續即開始輔導當地的林農換約。" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "剛剛政委有提到我們有一些換約的措施，也就是有租約關係的，如果現地上是種植果樹，我們現在有一個輔導的辦法，只要在承租面積30％之林地造林，其餘70％的果樹，我們就允許他暫時存在，這個是屬於比較漸近式的改變方式。" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "至於沒有租約的部分，因為並沒有合法的使用權益，因此這一個部分我們後續會依法處理。但是這些案子，如果是早期在國產署經管土地的時候，即發生訂約與否相關爭議的部分，依照94年行政院核定的接管計畫，這個部分林務局可將土地移還國產署接管去釐清、處理，簡單說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "林務局的意思是，因為這個部分有爭議，所以當事人要回到國產署，處理完再說，意思是不是這樣？" }, { "speaker": "范家翔", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們不談所有權，其實是國有的，現在談到的是租約問題。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "剛剛有提到從一開始登記之後，登記是寫某農民的名字，事後農民並沒有辦租約，但是上面的作物一直是農民種的，一直以來都是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "在新社地區是牽涉到香菇產業，或許香菇產業的產值很大，但是其實只是林業的一部分而已，希望合作社的成立，希望能夠讓國產香菇……我想政府多少都有聽到，國產香菇面臨存亡的危機，是原材料的短缺，我也知道政府在努力做這一件事。更要 配合政策更新造林，如果不更新的話，碳存量會降低，我們希望政府國有地的林業用地，包含保安林是必須要更新的，但是我們可以最合適的更新方式，包括現在合作社的社員，也是接受林務局的輔導,教育我們社員來砍樹。 經過林務局培訓的單位，一方面協助林務局更新造林，另外一方面也可以取得用在國產香菇上可以使用優質國產材的目的，來解決菇類產業的這一些危機，這個是我們最主要的訴求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他的書面有跟你說有做契作短期的部分，2013年開始，後來修了幾次，是說希望媒合你們去跟願意參加短期計畫的林農去進行這一種契作，你們有開始做，或者是有什麼原因沒有辦法做嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "相思木送到木屑場是3,000元/頓，加工成木屑到製包場也不過是3,400元/頓，一點利潤都沒有還得虧錢，為什麼能夠生存？變成所有只要合法做的，那肯定是虧錢的，為什麼別人能賺錢呢？多少城市裡面的行道樹，像台中市的黑板樹是不適合種香菇的，回收業者將這一些木頭拿到哪裡去呢？以前說香菇可以翻七次，現在只翻到兩至四次，因為裡面被攙雜了非常多不適合香菇的原材料及有毒材料，因此把不應該放進去的放進去了，這個是非法業者可以生存的（原因）。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "如果我們是合作社，做這一種事，可以是合作社嗎？我們希望做的都是合法的事情，你說合法、我們的成本高，我們就加上去，你說業者可以接受嗎？業者也是接受不了，成本太高了，如果依照目前的成本計算，如果是原材料進來送到製包廠的話，也是要4,000元，現在每一噸3,000元至3,400元，可以賺很多錢的原因是攙雜了很多不好的東西在裡面。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們現在辦FSC國際產銷履歷的認證，我們為了把這個事情做好，我們希望政府能夠扶持我們，希望做出一個樣板，大家才可以認同，不然非法都可以賺錢，合法都不能賺錢，那我們這一些合法的該怎麼辦？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "您覺得目前對於綠色環境給付計畫，大的底下像取得相思林的材料，看是不是可以變得更便宜；第二，有沒有可能產銷履歷，讓大家這是對環境沒有危害過程生產出來的，不管是行銷之類的，使得終端價值也可以增加，聽起來是這兩端，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想林務局的書面回應其實非常清楚，不曉得有沒有口頭要補充的部分？" }, { "speaker": "李建霖", "speech": "政委，這個部分其實有談到混合成本的部分，其實這一個部分我想再補充一個實際的案例，我們有輔導一個永在營林業合作社，輔導他成立合作社之後，他本身在透過農委會的林業試驗所來幫助他做經營計畫的書寫。" }, { "speaker": "李建霖", "speech": "這個合作社也得到了FFC，一個林業生產的認證，這個部分也是會把相思木的部分，把它做成菇包，這個部分也新設，是第一個用菇包生產的FFC的香菇，這部分我想我提出一個實際的案例。" }, { "speaker": "李建霖", "speech": "經由農委會各單位協助輔導一個合作社，做出這樣的香菇產業。我們的資料當中也有提到因為做相關的媒合，目前永在林業合作設來講，以己經過FFC認證的面積，達到九百多公頃，這個部分對於台中合作社來講可以做為一個參考，目前我們也都有幫他們(台中林業合作社)做輔導的工作，以上是我們對輔導業者案例的部分來作案例說明。" }, { "speaker": "李建霖", "speech": "有關於另外一個部分，我們是按照相關的法規來作標售；另外，有關於木材的資源，能讓大家都能瞭解，我們也有協助民間的部分成立臺灣的木材網，這部分就能從私有林及民間需求端來串聯交易的平台，以上簡單補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以聽起來目前還在媒合的過程中，這個過程中反映到取得的成本事實上還是比較高的部分，看有沒有再簡短跟我們分享一下？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "這一件事我們也跟東勢林管處提出來，我們也是在等媒合。我們是看大方向，全臺灣木材供應生產菇類是遠遠不足的，所以現在有很多是進口的，進口木材的安全性問題，曾經發生過有毒，所以造成菇業產業的嚴重危害。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們今天想提出來的是，除了私有林這塊之外，這麼一大片國有林的相思樹，是不是應該要考慮？因為相思樹易老化，所以相思樹更需要更新，私有林的媒合，與林務局都在探討如何媒合這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們有聽過。就是希望國有林的部分是另外，媒合繼續媒合，但是國有林的運用希望有一個整體的規劃？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得對於剛才兩個題目有沒有要補充的部分？" }, { "speaker": "卓翠雲", "speech": "關於王理事長提到的17筆土地，其中11筆土地，基於林地林政一元化政策，已移交林務局接管。而其中2筆國有土地，原台中縣政府管理期間，曾出租作造林使用，移交本分署接管後，曾通知承租人辦理換約續租，但均逾期未辦理，以致租約已經中斷。如果使用人對於租約是否存在有疑義，可以請林務局洽本分署釐清。" }, { "speaker": "卓翠雲", "speech": "另本分署目前仍經管的6筆土地，經查並無租約關係存在。倘使用人於國有林地上確係作造林使用或編定農牧用地耕作使用的話，可以請使用人檢證向本分署申請造林地承租或耕地放租，今天我們有帶一些申請書表，可以協助使用人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是還在你們手上的，只要符合承租條件，國產署還是可以出租的。林務局現在是說未來有租約上的問題會找你們釐清，請你們兩單位就現有資料，先進行一些討論後，再循例辦理。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我補充一下，我書面提的是案例。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我們這邊都是提的是循例。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我們希望有一個解決的方法，我提一個手上最近跟國產署處理的問題，996地號我在林務局這邊也查到，當時台電做了高壓電塔，把補償金給原來的地主，人已經過世了，說兒子為了辦繼承這一件事，我到林務局查，林務局告訴我的是，國產署這邊已經公告終止租約，轉移給林務局，所以林務局依法不能辦理續約，這個是林務局給我們的答覆。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我到國產署這邊行了一個文，結果國產署給我的答覆是：「該土地在本署分管期間並未出租。」所以我提出來的請求，他無法同意，這個也是事實，我講的都是事實，國產署講的話是對的，但這個土地最早是縣政府分管的土地，縣政府管理的時候，在電腦上造冊，縣政府把土地轉移給國產署，然後國產署再轉移給林務局，現在是一筆筆接收，過去的移交跟現在是不一樣的。 因為整批公告了，就造成很多農民因為被公告完之後要再跟林務局辦理租約，林務局說發生問題時不歸林務局分管,而不知道找誰。如果沒有這歷史遺留事實的話，為何林務局電腦上會出現這個名字？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有聽懂。我現在有一個比較關鍵的問題，因為林務局一直是說如果市政府有能夠出具縣政府代表期間有任何關係的證明文件，就可以回去跑流程，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "市政府農業局是說以他們手上有的資料為準，而這一些資料裡面，像966地號，而這個就是國有非公用土地，你知道我的意思嗎？從他們的手上來看這一件事，並沒有出具這樣文件。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "對，就966地號來講是占用。什麼叫占用？還有一個閒置，林務局電腦上的資料是誰給的？是國產署給的，國產署的前身是誰給的？是縣政府。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "所以我認為政府既然是一體的，政府的文件往來，我們民眾的早期資料，因921地震等等方面的原因都沒有了，而政府檔案當中既有記載，我們是相信政府檔案當中這麼明確的事實及依據，是不是依據電腦的資料？因為電腦資料早期是給縣政府給的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，這個是非常清楚了，看市政府有沒有任何要補充的部分？" }, { "speaker": "徐宏銘", "speech": "如同理事長所講的，其實我們該給的一波清冊都有給，其實我們有的都已經移過去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在主爭點聽起來是是林務局的要求，跟有爭議的部分回到國產署，國產署有沒有可能先挑一、兩個案子，然後之後變得比較容易，這樣是解決的方法，接著請follow up，就是就比較有可能輔導、處理的案子，我們把它建立一個模式出來，因為這邊提到一個租約的範本，如果現在還在你們手上，你們這邊是原持有人用這樣的方法申請，這樣申請的流程，我們用書面的方法接在逐字稿的後面，等於大家看到逐字稿的人都可以知道正規的申請流程是怎麼樣，這樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我再補充一下，966地號現在是在林務局手上，過去是經過國產署轉移給林務局的，像這樣的案子是應該由林務局直接來辦理，如果現在留在國產署，就由國產署辦理，現在資料轉移到林務局，應該由林務局直接在電腦上的檔案就能夠直接辦理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我會跟林務局討論，因為他們剛剛提到另外一個方向，另外一個方向是說這個有爭議，就先回國產署，然後國產署來辦，我剛剛聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "像我拿的這個典型案例，其實爭議也不是在國產署，國產署是中間一個過客，這個是發生在縣政府的時代，已經轉移到林務局了，我不是替國產署說話，因為這個事情如果推回給國產署，國產署真的是沒有辦法辦，最後資料業務的承受人是林務局。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有聽懂，這樣的話，會後請林務局的同仁把剛剛提到所有人清冊，不管你們是內部系統或者是開放資料或者是結構化資料，先用超連結的方法提供給作業的同仁，我自己先看一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們確認一下所有人清冊，因為從他們的角度來看，這個是當初跟這邊理論上是完全相同的，所以如果也肯認這一件事的話，確實就用那個當作資料的正本，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣一至三好像都差不多了，二的部分是如果國有林有整體規劃的話，因為我們大概有十個工作天，也就是十四天的編輯期，如果這中間不管是林務局或者是其他相關部會的同仁對於國有林的使用有任何相關，不管是未來政策規劃方向或者是相關徵詢等等，就直接附在逐字稿當中，你會一起收到這個答案。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "不好意思，第一點的特定目的事業我們該向哪一個單位提出？這個事情我們該怎麼做？以節省大家的流程。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在「特定目的事業用地」，你們希望有一個單一的窗口？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "是，這不是我們合作社的問題，而是所有合作社面臨到的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你是我的話，你會想要怎麼解決？" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "是不是可以用合作社……因為牽涉到各部門不一樣，像有的是衛福部、有的會牽涉到環保署，各部門間是不是透過合作事業的主管機關，是不是可以請他們處理？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我可以馬上回答你這個問題，因為其實合團籌備處的人力非常有限、經費更加有限。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們目前的傾向，是把輔導業務當作中小及新創企業署，在組改完成之後……什麼時候完成？" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "聽說1月1日會完成。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "完成之後，會有一個大家都知道的中小企業條例，會變成「中小暨新創（條例）」，目前的草案版本當中，把稅籍登記、一定規模以下的放進去，這樣合作社自然變成中小企業。變成中小企業之後，當然他們就有一個很完整的體系，像「馬上辦中心」、「新創基地」、「新創圓夢網」等等的東西，這樣就一體適用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好處是我們不用再找人設點，本來經濟部中小企業相關輔導的單位，在所有的縣市都有人，然後在行政院各個地方的聯合服務中心都有駐點的人，當然我們還是要辦一些共識營跟宣導，就是講說到底合作社跟公司有什麼不一樣，但是至少可以用同一批人，而不是按照縣市、按照每個目的事業主管機關重新訓練同一批人，當然如果內政部要重新訓練同一批人，我也不反對。" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "我是台中市政府社會局，我們的承辦人是兩個，為何會找這兩個合作社的原因？其實在社會局，像今天的土地來了，然後又牽涉到衛福部、環保署，皮球會踢來踢去，他們在吵架的時候，我們會說該怎麼樣，但是有牽扯到衛福部、環保署的規定怎麼樣，他們也有提到連車子都在走的時候，連政府都要監控，因為法令真的是太多了。" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "他們會希望有一個單一的窗口，像剛剛講的牽涉到菇類，甚至於把木材拿回來，比如如何用，看起來農委會那邊會比較知道，如果找到一塊地，也許是市政府、林務局或者是國產署，但有沒有一個單一窗口可以讓他們知道到底是要找這一塊地的地主，又或者是找要做木材的主管機關，我覺得應該是要給他們單一、確定的窗口，然後由那個窗口幫忙把這一些call回來。" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "如果醫療器材廢棄物的處理真的很難講，因為可能遇到衛福部，衛福部說是這個是廢棄物，然後就說是環保署，然後遇到的問題是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這就是「社會創新行動方案」的意義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "碰到這樣的狀況，我們真的沒有辦法每次出現一個新的社會問題，我們就設立一個新的單位去處理，這個是不可能的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聯合國17項永續發展目標，裡面232項指標，我們不可能忽然變成兩百多個局處，來處理永續發展的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為組改不可能是每一天都在組改，沒有這種事的，所以現在退一步的處理方法是，我們把這些具體的案例，每一個個案通案性的部分，像這一些合作社，到底對於環保有什麼貢獻，而這個貢獻是我們會鼓勵這一些合作社的朋友到這個QR code右上角的「社創企業登記資料庫」裡面，對於社會、環境的貢獻，以及每一年如果有公益報告的東西，那就更好了，把那個東西登記上去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "登記上去之後比較有好處，也就是各部會都認識你，比較是你跟政府不管哪一個部門交往的紀錄，這個是一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我們就會儘量透過巡迴跟逐字稿公布，我們現在在台北，可以看到大概是十三個部會當中，可能只有五個跟今天的案子有關係，但另外八位也不是白來，因為之後說不定就跟他們有關係了，你知道我的意思嗎？他們現在大概知道有這一件事，這一件事的狀態是什麼、爭點在哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且我們有逐字紀錄的好處是，之後回去不用憑著印象跟長官講，市政府的朋友們也不用一定要等中央的一個文下來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為文來文往，一、兩個月就過去了，我們現在就是靠即時的逐字稿變成大家的公共財概念，任何一個承辦人一回來一看，等於不用從頭再講一次，等於就已經又看到一次，這是我們目前的處理方法，也就是透過跨部會的虛擬team來處理這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "裡面需要調到法規的部分，像稅籍登記等等的部分，像剛剛這邊也有提出來的，我們就會到平均兩個月一次左右的社創聯繫會議正式提案提該管的部會去檢討、修正法規等等，所以我們在中央只能調類似法規高位階的東西，但是實際執行上，個案一定會碰到各種卡卡的狀況，這一種狀況就是透過巡迴的情況，也讓在場的其他朋友們知道目前的實際情況，這個是具體回答您的問題，這個虛擬的平台是單一窗口，而這個單一窗口不可能新東西出來的時候就冒出新的人，就必須用現有的人，像中小企業處的體系等等來做多功能的用途，大概是回答您的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為書面提案四其實是……我剛剛聽起來有一個沒有對齊的地方，就是自主焚化爐的那一件事，具體上來講，在最有利的情況之下，也就是假設都沒有任何外在阻礙的話，你們會想要做到什麼樣的程度？我想先問這一件事，也就是處理的量、處理的方式，先講理想的狀況是什麼，我們再來對齊我們目前現在這一個之前可能因為有所謂廢爐等等的講法或者是跟理想狀況中間的差距，是不是可以先跟我們分享一下？" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "其實醫療院所承接政府的標案來服務全民的健康，我想這也是一種社會責任，每個院所是跟健保署簽約，所以才會產生醫療廢棄物，然後課予院所更高規格處理的事務，這個我們ok，我們不需要醫療廢棄物的處理。但是因為我服務民眾，我產生了這一些醫療廢棄物，我必須要接受更高規格的處理，我們覺得這個ok。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "一方面我們替政府處理這一件事，所以我們覺得政府應該要幫我們解決處理醫療廢棄物的問題，這個是第一點。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "第二，剛剛有一個長官提到要回歸市場機制，我就從市場機制來討論這一件事：第一點，這個是政府政策制定出來的，所以我們不得不做，一個市場機制是一個高麗菜在颱風天，10元飆到120元，這個是一定會有人出來管，這個不是市場機制的問題。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "醫療廢棄物的處理方式是如果回歸到市場機制，現在焚化爐業者都已經聯合好了，他們就是要這個價錢，我舉一個例子來講，像民國100年時，我們跟所有終端處理焚化爐終止合約時，他一下子就提高了三倍有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。書面上有的，就請可以不用再唸。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "這個是醫療院所的，然後又提高價錢，所以我們現在要的是，合作社有一千多家，這其實不是一千多，全省的醫療院所加起來是2、3萬家，這個是很普遍的問題。為何會發現這個問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "比便利商店還要多。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "這個是普遍的問題。他們說焚化爐的廠商說5,000元就交5,000元，然後又會說怎麼只有1,000多元，這個問題就會被浮現出來，我們自己從清運、運送到焚化設施，其實不需要這麼多錢，中間的利潤就是制度造成的，你讓我一個不得不做的東西，我必須遷就這一些業者，因此就被提高了很大的利潤出去了，像高麗菜10元，民眾買到手上是30元。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "第一個問題是，因為我們沒有自主性，但是我們現在是希望從頭到尾，像醫療廢棄物產生了，有清運的功能，有初步的高溫、高壓的功能，接下來是焚化爐，而且這個焚化爐是早期衛福部有補助方案，在豐原。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你現在是原地重建的意思，或者是只要法規允許，到別的地方也可以？" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "法規允許，有一個焚化爐，又或者公立的來委託我們執行都可以了，這個事情就會解決掉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個法規問題是什麼？具體來說到底是什麼法規？" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "環評。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這個是廢棄物處理的一環？" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，可用場地的部分，之前在豐原，是距離的考量嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "那時是衛生署，就是跟豐原醫院一起用，那個是臺灣第一科的焚化爐，因為那時豐原醫院很偏僻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我想說為什麼會挑豐原？沒有鄰避的問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "那時候沒有。等到豐原醫院住家太多了，他們認為焚化爐在那邊會影響他們的健康。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "1994年，真的很有歷史了。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "填土久了，爐子就壞掉了，後來豐原醫院又要擴編，我們就只好搬出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣我瞭解，原地的話，這樣就不太可能。因為我印象中……我年紀比較小，不太記得1994年的狀況。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "如果政府可以用公有焚化爐，我們去經營是ok的，如果沒有辦法的話，那可以補助我們，或者是幫我們解決環保的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "這個爐子是如果可以的話，把中部的一些醫療院所解決掉，這其實也是幫政府解決滿大的問題，因為合作社的經營不會有一些……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有聽懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得環保署的朋友們，因為剛才環保署簡略回答了其中兩個部分，但是爐子的部分，我覺得比較完整聽完之後，聽起來並不是一定要他們共同擁有，這並不是真正意義上好比像利用合作社的概念，而是只要有一個不管是公營或者是公辦民營，但是是一個比較公益性質的，這樣子的話，跟你們就會比較合，聽起來就是這樣子而已。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得環保署的朋友對於這樣的想法有沒有什麼回饋？" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "其實焚化爐比較困難，我們今年本來要在澎湖蓋一個，本來預算都編好了，要在澎湖蓋一個焚化爐，所以被取消掉了，困難重重，如果未來要再蓋一個焚化爐，問題滿大的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不好意思，台北場的麥克風有一些狀況，不過我們看表情大概可以知道您的主要訊息。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在很難找到一個地方是居民不會有所動員的地方來作新設的焚化爐，如果這樣的話，因為這張桌子上，目前並沒有邀這一些民營焚化爐的業者，因為真正的多方利益關係人的結構裡面，我們還是會需要現有的利益關係人，像你們剛剛所講的，像聯合對價格做一些調整等等的情況，後面的脈絡可能要先釐清，我們才能再往下一步走。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所謂公營焚化爐，我後面沒有聽到，但是意思是非常困難，是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃輝榮", "speech": "就是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "報告政委還有一個問題，健保署一直說藥價黑洞，因為藥的部分也牽涉到公益的性質，因此定義1元，不可以賣2元以上，既然都這樣規定了，焚化爐的廠商是不是應該要規定說合約到了是不是可以漲三倍？其實漲三倍的基礎在哪裡？如果允許焚化爐廠商已經有的，對於這些醫療院所予取予求的話，其實不合公益的情況，如果你說公營焚化爐很難設立的話，是不是可以像健保的藥的精神，如果1元變成3元，3萬元馬上就發下去了，為何焚化爐的廠商跟你說要漲三倍，之前營運得下去，為何突然漲三倍，我們的理由是什麼？我們其實是配合……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我有聽懂。環保署目前做的「多元化垃圾處理計畫」，其實非常簡單，就是不要讓每一個縣市造成其他縣市的負擔，像如果現在焚化爐的量能或者是技術已經很舊了或怎麼樣，是幫他更新，並沒有提到您剛剛所說比較類似公有化、部分公有化或者是共益性的概念，比較沒有放到這個方案裡，你剛剛的訴求是放到這個方案裡面或者是別的方案裡面，無論如何最終的結果，是希望末端不要反過頭來，讓這一些比較屬於公益性質的工作，受市場機制主導，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "陳俊宏", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "環保署的回應非常明確，就是說明到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "回去之後我會做兩件事，我會看多元化垃圾處理……畢竟現在是選舉季節，如果有人把比較有效率、比較有意義處理這一個東西當作他的不管是競選訴求或者是接下來議會問政的重點，這樣都可以，我們回去會瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，您剛剛提到目的事業主管機關，他們會希望衛福部的朋友們給一個窗口，然後讓不管是長照或者是其他的部分，你們這邊要處理的時候，至少有一個人是可以幫你們去疏導法令的事情，因為從他們的角度來看並沒有什麼不可以，所以我覺得這邊可能需要一個窗口，我這個會回去處理，我們先處理到這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看台北的朋友們有沒有任何要補充的？其他的部會也可以補充這一案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都沒有的話，我們就進入自由討論的狀態，我們還有大概一個小時的時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實剛才各位自我介紹的時候，已經有提出相當多的想法，聽完這樣一整輪下來，又冒出來的想法或者是想要討論的事情等等，是不是請剛才沒有發言過或者是沒有提出過問題的朋友們先有一輪討論、分享等等的這種機會，然後我們再回到前面有提到的朋友。" }, { "speaker": "李思潔", "speech": "政委好、貴賓好，剛剛對於焚化爐的這一件事，政委有提到因為現在可能涉及選舉期間，因此想要藉由一些比如立法機關的民意。我覺得這樣會有一點失去這個會的目的了，因為我自己讀政治系，研究這一個方面，開這個會是立馬解決這個問題，如果會轉到民意機關就會有所延宕了，您也知道選舉期間，政見是可以任意開的，但是解決問題所在還是在執行的人身上，這個是我個人的一些小意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先解釋一下脈絡，因為剛才環保署的朋友，雖然我後面一小段沒有聽到，但是前面的意思是，他們本來有一些規劃，也就是案子都提出來了，說不定都已經報到行政院了，但是在執行的過程中，可能在前期溝通的過程中，因為當地的民意反對或者是因為當地民眾對於這一件事存有疑慮，所以行政院不管是在澎湖或者是其他的地方，已經想要推的案子，是可能有人有錢、但沒有辦法實行的情況。我是在這個背景之下去提這樣的回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我想先瞭解覺得困難重重後面的結構性原因是什麼，如果這邊本來就是一些誤解，以我的理解，像之前有在禮拜三Office Hour於空總時有提到有一個技術是把海洋塑膠還原變成生質柴油的技術，這個其實是非常有創意的技術，甚至未來到漁會就捕一些海洋的垃圾回來換油，就可以一直開下去，這個其實是非常創意的、社會創新的解決方法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但他們碰到的困難是，連他的里長都不知道工廠的存在，大家直覺聽到這個是「海洋垃圾廢棄物處理廠」，明天就拉白布條抗議了，因此很難解釋過程中不會產生什麼外洩效應或者是惡臭等等，大家聽到「廢棄物處理場」六字就會覺得不要在我家旁邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我剛剛不是要退回去的意思，而是要找一些人，是不是可以做社會溝通。如果挑一些循環經濟示範的案例，讓大家瞭解到在新的技術之下，可以到達對旁邊不會造成壞處的情況，那不管是代議士，或者是剛選完的政務官來跟大家說明，這樣行政院編的案子才出得去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在並不是行政院不想馬上寫一個案子出來，是已經寫出來了，只是不能推動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果對這個想法覺得不服氣，很歡迎繼續討論這個結構。我目前的意思只是，現在真的大家看到同樣的字眼，腦裡的想像是不一樣的，這是施政的最大挑戰之一。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看其他之前沒有發言過的朋友，有沒有要分享的？" }, { "speaker": "陳忠盛", "speech": "謝謝唐政委，剛剛有提到循環再利用的問題，剛好上一期商業週刊有看到分享，我覺得這個有很多的期待。" }, { "speaker": "陳忠盛", "speech": "同時在上一期的商業周刊，也就是在荷蘭那邊有做被當作廢棄物不好的東西，但是廢棄物循環再利用，剛好庇護工廠有投入到咖啡產業、有烘焙館，也有利用咖啡渣做筆記本、馬克杯及種菇之類的，我們本身原本庇護工廠的主力是設計印刷，因此引起我很大想要嘗試的可能性。" }, { "speaker": "陳忠盛", "speech": "像這樣的情況之下，這一些技術或者是相關的資料有沒有什麼樣的東西可以讓我們請教或者是協助我們？是不是可以從這個機會來嘗試看看？也就是用咖啡渣循環再利用成為筆記本或者是馬克杯的商品，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我所知，農委會有這樣的項目，有一個專門的網站叫做「https://agtech.coa.gov.tw/」，我們之前5月辦「明日亞洲」時，也有請到國外把咖啡渣做各式各樣利用的人來分享，這個部分有相當多的能量。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，我剛剛提到的這一些連結，我現在講的並不可能唸超連結給您，但是我會找網址並放在逐字稿中，給您參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我們請農委會的朋友，他們不管是在月刊或是各地的研究單位，因為現在所有這一些研究案都會在政府的GRB系統當中，因此這部分可能找到作者，打一通電話給他，作者都是很希望那個paper有人可以用的，因此可以建立比較好的關係，我們會後再follow up，看大家有沒有其他要提出討論或者是分享的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們要處理一下照服媒合項目的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子聽起來，你們的個案，這一次不能廢標，這一次是一年半嗎？是到明年年底。具體訴求簡單來講是到明年年底的時候，所有跟這一類東西相關的，不要以不合理的理由去排除掉合作社型態的服務提供者，一句話可以是這樣子嗎？這樣子就會變成接下來具體的項目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來想要問的是，這個排除掉之後，也就是競標上不會有不合理的限制，有沒有其他觀察到工程會當然會說不能做，但是工程會如果有一個範本或者是一個指引會有幫助的，那一些部分是不是可以快速列給我們知道一下？" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "（提出資料）原來公共工程委員會就有一個範本，於第8條「管理17」有關於勞工保障權益的部分，針對廠商對於到機關提升服務的派遣勞工，應該要訂定勞動契約，並且要將勞動契約的影本送機關備查，但廠商為合作社，派至機關提供之勞工為其社員者除外。……原本就有這一個範例在，但是這個範例在102年之後被刪除，刪除之後各甄選單位就增加一些條件，像簽具保障勞工權益切結書，也就是要適用勞動基準法，還有提供就業服務法裡面規定的就業許可證。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想如果有電子檔的話，等一下跟我們的同仁換一下名片，給我們電子檔，這樣就跟逐字稿一起公布，工程會未來看到這一案的時候，就有相關的完整脈絡可以看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想當年修正這個必然有其修正的原因，我現在看起來廠商為合作社也是有一點寬，要免除這個，理論上要是勞動合作社，或是由勞務服務提供的合作社，如果是一家信用合作社，要免除它好像也哪裡怪怪的。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "一般會投標到公立醫院的照顧服務員一定是我們專業服務的勞動合作社。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使要把文字加回去，不會是完全一樣的文字，像要章程明訂有勞動或者是其他的性質。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不知道工程會的朋友有沒有對這個事情有想法或者是要帶回去研究的？" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "如果針對勞務採購契約範本修正的部分，我還是一定要先作一下說明，張經理所提的這個部分，現在102年12月12日修正勞務採購契約範本時所做的修正。我先還原一下，當初是在第8條履約管理第17款，我們有訂一個勞工權益保障。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "我稍微唸一下，這個說明起來有一點小複雜，第8條第17款第1目，處理的是派遣勞工，我們的文字是「廠商對其派至機關勞務的派遣勞工，應訂立書面勞工契約，並將該契約影本送機關備查」，這個是第1目的本文。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "當時有一個「但書」，就是合意勞動合作社，張經理很介意為何刪除，「但廠商為合作社，派至機關提供勞務的勞工為其社員者不在此限」。也就是如果是合作社的話，不是勞動契約。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "為何在102年12月要做這個修正呢？因為勞動部有行文給我們，勞動部是保障勞工權益的主管機關，他們認為派遣勞工都要具有僱傭關係，因此要訂定書面的勞動契約。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "即便是合作社來投標、擔任廠商，也不是例外，所以勞動部正式行文請我們研議修正有關但書的部分，因為讓很多合作社誤以為只要具有合作社社員間的關係就可以不用簽勞動契約。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "所以每一次範本的修正都是找相關的主管機關一起來會商及研究，當時依據的法令跟政委報告一下，因為派遣事項在中央是人事行政總處的權責，當時人事行政總處有訂「行政院運用勞動派遣應行注意事項」，在「注意事項」第4點第2項明白載明勞動合作社參與機關運用派遣人力的勞務採購案件，應以其所僱用的人員，不管是社員或是非社員，就是要用所僱用的人員為之，因此合作社及所僱用的社員間應訂立書面勞動契約，因此當時才會在102年12月的時候把「但書」刪掉。以上種種的報告都是在規範派遣勞工的部分。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "至於張經理（提到）參與投標的案子是不是派遣或者是勞動承攬，這個要看個案，我們手上沒有相關的資料，針對版本修正的部分再跟政委說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這裡應該是分成兩個：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，勞動合作社的社員跟勞動合作社間，不管是社員代表或者是理事們的關係，到底是不是一種所謂的僱傭關係，最近不管是內政部，甚至是財政部都有做出了一些解釋，所以我覺得這個跟當年的狀況不太一樣，現在是比較有一個明確解釋的情形，所以這其實是可以重新再來檢討的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，如果這邊沒有寫「勞動契約不在此限」等等的話，其他開這個標的朋友們就會自己加一些需要的簽名文件，但這兩個中間到底有沒有邏輯關係，這個是我剛才一直在想的，即使我們現在還是本來的勞務採購契約範本，就是不需要提供書面的勞動契約影本，還是可以提供勞務仲介營業項目有的沒的，這兩個其實沒有邏輯關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使現在釐清了勞動合作社的法律地位，甚至不一定要修契約範本，甚至用一個函去解釋這一件事，這對我們都很容易，這個是可以立刻做到的。但是，這是不是能夠讓開標的單位不去加一些把你們中間的文件，其實邏輯上是不相干的，如果要解決這一個問題，而這個問題還是必須要回過頭來有一個通案的討論，也就是勞動合作社到底是從政府的角度來看，到底跟仲介具體差異是什麼，然後我們會需要所有做採購的朋友們，在寫這個東西的時候，類似應記載、不得記載事項，應該要照顧到合作社形式哪一些基本權益，還有不應該去，如果能夠用合作社投標的話，不應該要求哪一些合作社不可能有的東西，後面這個是比較大的，但是我覺得是比較有意義的，可能不是工程會這邊做任何發函，或者是內政部這邊發言調整就可以立刻解決的。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "這個問題已經糾纏了一段時間了，各部會當然有自己所依據的法令，但是如果要做橫向綜合整理，肯定需要唐政委出來整合，讓工程會、勞動部、國防部、退輔會等單位了解甚麼是合作社以及合作社法的規範，有無和本身職掌的法規產生矛盾之處，要如何解決等。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "現在公共工程委員會的專委提到的問題，也是派遣，但是合作社的社員不是派遣工，合作社的社員是入社股東，我們曾向勞保局申請成立投保單位，但勞保局函覆：「社員具有股東身分，不能成立投保單位，但如果聘用專職人員，即要成立，如會計、行政人員等。」那社員的勞健保怎麼辦呢?輔導他們加入該縣市相關行業職業工會並補貼勞健保費用，例如我們的社員就加入新竹縣療院所照顧服務員職業工會。強調的是，不會因合作社性質，而忽略社員的權益。退休準備金是以現金給付的方式支給，對於社員該有的權益一點都不會疏忽，這個是會員大會中可以決議的。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "合作社法跟勞動基準法是兩個不同運作的法令規範，就像火車鐵軌，可以併行存在，但現在看各部會處理方式，是讓火車出軌，不能相容。如果合作社依勞動基準法運作的話，我們的社員在醫院服務不能超過八小時，最多不能超過十二個小時，超時部分還要支付1.34、1.67的加班費，女性夜間工作還要報准或取得工會或勞工同意。我舉一個簡單的例子，醫院病房一對一的照護是不是二十四小時？而且連續10天、半個月是常有的事，直到病人出院為止，如果是適用勞動基準法，是不是每家醫院的病房照顧都明顯違法?" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是就像你說的，他們還是會有工會，而且如果真的是很差的工作條件，會員大會投票把你罷免掉就是了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想勞動部的朋友們，不曉得對於這一件事有沒有初步的處理方向有一些想法？我看到名單上其實有勞發署的朋友們在。" }, { "speaker": "紀秉宗", "speech": "政委好，這個問題我可能需要帶回去跟相關的業務同仁討論，才能作一些回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個問題的構面比較廣，也就是涉及各部會，但是其他的部分是非常清楚的，我想這個是可以在下次社會創新聯繫會議，如果合團司跟勞動部這邊能夠對這一件事有一些初步的討論，因為我們的社創聯繫會議的特色是所有的簡報、逐字稿也都是公開的，如果大家發現我們下一次開會沒有提或者是沒有討論或者是沒有處理，也就是說話不算話，全臺灣都會知道，我想這個大家不用擔心，我們一定會有通案討論的方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只是因為今天主管勞基法解釋的朋友們沒有在現場，主要的原因這並不是書面提案，如果是書面提案的話，我們會確保人會在，這個我們會處理。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "我們要強調保障社員是非常重要的，勞動部一直強調所有勞動都要依照勞動基準法運作，事實上是沒有錯的，但是我們是合作社，我們是完全依照合作社法去運作，我們沒有非社員。 你說非社員進來就要按照勞基法執行，如果有非社員那是當然的，但沒有非社社員的合作社也一併被要求適用，等同於寧可錯殺一百也不能漏掉一個，封鎖了合法經營的合作社生機。因此，如果要設置門檻，也須依考量例外條件，開個缺口，讓合作社看見陽光。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是在章程當中明訂不是非社員，也就是等於是一個純粹的合作社，並不會有一些是員工的情況發生，這個我完全可以瞭解。所以這一個部分我們先處理到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "張紘宇", "speech": "麻煩政委幫我們協調處理，這個困擾我們很久，合作社一直沒有辦法得到公平的待遇。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，沒問題。合團司籌備處什麼時候會變成合團司？" }, { "speaker": "張家榮", "speech": "這個部分還不確定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們儘量讓它確定下來，因為合團司現在其實扮演一個很重要的角色，他們發出來的文會變成其他部會對於合作社性質認定的統一見解，但是合團司現在比較在籌備處的狀態，他們的預算也非常非常有限，因此基本上現在是輔導每一個社按照合作社法的精神，不要再變成他……這個是大家不希望掛羊頭賣狗肉的情況，這個也似地比較沒有那麼大的能量，就像各位都觀察到的事情，沒有問題，這個我可以做，沒有問題。這個問題就先到這裡，但是我們會在社創聯繫會議做系統性盤點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有其他想要說的？" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "唐政委你好，大家好，我是台中市環保科技處理設備利用合作社經理，今天很高興能夠來參加這個會，也感謝行政院能夠舉辦這一個會，你的用意就是要幫忙各個合作社。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "剛剛我們的陳理事也報告過我們的問題，我再補充一下，醫療廢棄物合作社處理各個廢棄物，一個是環境衛生，這個是很重要的，而且當時衛生署協助跟豐原醫院合作成立的，在豐原市來講其實有一點偏僻，因此可以在那邊成立焚化爐。到後來是因為旁邊又建了很多房子以後，民眾可能常常抗議。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "原來衛生福利部來協助我們做這一種事，碰到問題了，應該不是只有單純合作社的問題，衛福部如果也當作他的問題來協助的話，那個是最好的；要建立一個爐子當然很不簡單。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "最基本的條件是乙種工業用地，乙種工業用地讓我們取得以後，才能去利用，一方面是我們有一些高壓處理，以後有五、六部車子出去巡迴跟收回來，所以至少要有這一些辦公的地方，有場地可以放車子等等。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "行政院能夠督促台中市政府，因為我們地點就在台中市，協助我們取得許可的乙種工業用地，基本上我們才能去使用，我們要去購買也好、或者是要租給我們，不然我們現在住在大雅，那個地主隨時說要提高租金。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "既然今天開了這個座談會，目的就是要協助，所以如果能夠協助我們取得一塊土地，這個是基本的。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "以後能不能蓋焚化爐，如果還能夠協助到環評可以通過，再加上以後可以建焚化爐，這樣才是一個永久性的經營。當初只有幾個人，現在增加了一千三百位，尤其縣市合併了，這個規模越來越大，服務的對象也越來越多。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "合作社性質並不是利益的，是服務社員的，並不能說以賺錢為目的，沒有辦法增加太多的資金，因此我們要買一塊地，這個很困難。" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "如果合作社消滅，對整體都不好，如果衛福部能夠跟台中市政府協助我們，因為我們如果沒有提出來的話，你們不知道有這個問題，如果提出來的話，我覺得大家可以共同。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "台中市政府一向能夠解決環境問題的社會創新是非常友善的，這個是台中市的特色，也就是為什麼今年「明日亞洲」年會是辦在台中市，主要的原因是包含佳龍或者是副市長都是非常支持這樣的理念，我們跟市府的關係並不差，這個是要先說的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們現在在大雅的那一棟，或者是一區？" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "其實是工廠，但是後來沒有做了，所以租給我們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以本來就已經是了，不是嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在的問題是這個原地主的想法而已，對不對？也就是要租給你們，要賣給你們或者是要做什麼處理？" }, { "speaker": "林瑞瑤", "speech": "地主要賣給另外一個人，如果用這一塊地的話，也不能建爐子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這一塊地其實只是你們的辦公場所，當然辦公場所只是碰巧是乙種工業用地，並不是真的作為乙種工業用，這樣我瞭解了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有兩個很具體的方向可以做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這還是要回應剛剛唸政治的朋友，我們可能沒有辦法在選舉期間，從行政院給市府壓力，要他們推出一個絕對會讓選情有負面影響的案子，這個是實話，我就直接講了（笑），這個是不可能的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們可以做的事，就是透過社會創新的模式，把聽起來不好的事情，去做一些集思廣益的過程，讓大家知道有實際上對環境有好處的，而且即使是對附近的環境，也沒有壞處等等。這個如果能彙集成一套論述，那當然就還好，但是如果沒有的話，我就要跟之前有處理過類似案子，像環保署有說試著在澎湖建立，要先看看案子怎麼樣，這一件事出現之後，接下來才會說不管怎麼樣，讓他們理解到這一件事是值得做的，或者是沒有這麼大的壞處，這個是第二步。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三步才是開始找實際的狀況、空間，或者是跟現有的民間業者進行協調等等，你知道我的意思嗎？要先解決政治問題，才能解決政策問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一位朋友很想發言。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "我提出一個全面性的，像這樣的會議，我們都提出問題於書面上，各部門有回答，是不是可以先提供給我們原提案人？我列舉一下，像提到法令的問題，政委有超連結，背後有很多人可以協助，我們只是民眾，沒有辦法超連結，現場會很具體回答，也就是依據什麼法令去處理這一個事情。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "說實在的，我現在沒有拿到這個法令，無法接續追問。" }, { "speaker": "王春森", "speech": "有些單位很保守，因此講得很籠統性的東西，像我們提供一些個案的事情，畢竟政府部門比較保守，這個也是很正常的現象，但是我希望這個事情如果讓我們提前知道，對提案人來講事先準備好材料資料，我們在開會的時候可以談得更深入一點，這個是我提出來的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我要幫幕僚單位講一下話，從你們提出問題一開始，會定期收到各部會填回來的狀況，你們這一案一直到前天，還是請林務局儘速回答之類的，每一個局處處理到的時間，我們大概很難壓縮業務單位所必要調到那一些資料的時間，但是我們可以做的是把書面提出的時間再往前，這個是我們可以做的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前我們討論的時間，沒有今天那麼長的時候，通常是兩小時或者是兩小時不到的討論，其實是定義問題、建立關係，後來拿去追問等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來在反映之下，我們覺得不如延長兩個半小時，先讓大家有書面資料討論，先有這一個新的方式，也就是這一個過程真的是可以調整的，我們讓書面的意見往前，各部門的時間都比較多，也許在開會前，像五個工作天之類的，先讓大家接到初步的回應資料，這個跟實際當天還是會有落差，因為多五天，他們也會多五天的資料，這個是時間準備。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個是逐字稿，很多時候大家看逐字稿會有更精確的想法，這個部會承辦來講，他們如果在這邊發言一定是有充分，已經簽到三層才敢出來講這一些話，但是回去之後，自己有創意可以想到怎麼樣處理的時候，這個時候就會在逐字稿作業的這一段時間裡面不斷補充後面的連結。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是對話的開始，並不是對話的結束，我每個禮拜三都在台北空總，不管你用email跟我聯絡或者是實際跑來找我，或者是任何的管道都可以follow up，都可以說我幾年幾月幾日有說過這一句話。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，也可以隨時回到這個網站上面，有一個叫做「新創圓夢網社會創新專區」，左上角的QR code，點開放政府，應該是上面的按鈕，都可以看到一次巡迴會議目前處理的進度，這個是持續追蹤的情況，並不是我們今天沒有了就沒有了的情況，而是讓各部會的朋友們都瞭解有這一件事，所有的回應都會一直累加到那個上面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但我完全同意多一、兩天，最好多個三、五天，讓提案的朋友可以處理部會回應的資料，這是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們下次改進，謝謝，我們自己也不斷檢討。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來是廟宇的事情。我們先來釐清慈賢宮的狀態……" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "民國4、50年代就已經有主祭了，因為時空背景的問題，是在以前的村長名下……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "……我想問現在的狀態？" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "他往生很久了……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "……我是說廟宇。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "如果不修復的話，可能會發生倒塌，因為土地不完整，因為我們找出一個可以過戶的，有一些地主比較年輕的，還在的，可以無條件過回來，但另外一個已經往生的阿公，因為他叫我跟阿公要，阿公不曉得死了幾十年，不可能要得到，他們願意給，但是人員太多了，所以找不到人，我們也找了律師處理，但是一直沒有，所以我才說勸他們不要繳土地稅這一些，但是要經過十五年，可不可以縮短？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有聽懂。現在您的考量是，那個廟宇經過十五年，不曉得會變成什麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "人不在，也沒有辦法處理，留下來是爭端的後遺症。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "文資司的朋友有處理過這樣的情況嗎？" }, { "speaker": "古惠茹", "speech": "政委好，剛剛社區協會民眾提到的問題，因為文化部這邊主要有文化資產局，主要協助的是有關於文化資產身分，也就是有歷史建築或者是古蹟身分，然後由地方政府或是所有權人去提出修繕的計畫，然後再進行採購，但是因為剛剛民眾提出來好像是一個比較私有財產的性質，所以目前在部內比較沒有相關的計畫可以協助。" }, { "speaker": "古惠茹", "speech": "但是有關於私有建築物要修建的話，老建築保存再生計畫 (https://obs.moc.gov.tw/home/zh-tw )，而這個計畫可以在文化部的獎補助系統查詢，是建物的所有權人或者管理者提出申請，又或者是具有文資建築身分一些相關科系的學校或者是民間代表來申請，這個部分有分為建築修繕的經費，又或者是比較軟體面，也就是有關於技術等等培育的課程，這兩個面向在思考上如何修繕廟宇的部分可以做一些前期的規劃。以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "工商服務過，所以我還記得。這個網址我再請同仁貼在sli.do上，我們附在逐字稿裡面，這裡面我覺得有一個比較關鍵的是，不一定要是擁有人，是實質再利用或是進行修繕的專業者。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "意思不是這樣子，如果只是土地產權不清，這應該是政府可以幫助的，而且這不是私人地，這個是廟宇的地，本來就是廟宇的地，只是時空背景在那個年代是給村長做，因為不能登記在廟宇，所以那個是時空背景的問題。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "我們現在並不是要請政府幫我改建，我們想要土地完整，自己村裡面就想要翻修。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這我們理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我現在只是說不要漏水的方法，這個產權並不會因為私有老建築保存再生計畫，莫名其妙就解決了，我只是說老建築本身有這個計畫，讓更多人來關心這一件事的方法，這並不是解法，只是提出有這一件事、有這個資源可以使用而已。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個好處是，有更多人知道的話，也許大家就會對這一件事更理解，這樣的話，即使要等十五年之後，也會有人在意這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個十五年後面其實是有法規依據的。我們請副座幫我們指導一下。" }, { "speaker": "卓翠雲", "speech": "因為據吳理事長的說明，土地應是登記在村長名下是私有土地，村長過世後，繼承人未辦理繼承登記，依據土地法第73條之1，逾期未辦繼承登記之土地，地政機關會列冊管理十五年，逾期仍未聲請登記者，由地政機關將該土地清冊，移請國有財產局公開標售。倘經五次標售而未標出者，則會登記為國有。至於吳理事長請求縮短列冊管理的期間，是土地法主管機關內政部的權責。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我看了一下土地法，裡面並沒有任何的排除事項，這就是標準做法，所以如果你要縮短這個的話，這個就超過行政院的權限，必須回到立法院去修法，因為我們公務員在行政院必須是要依法行政，但是本來立法的本意當中就有說某某情況下可以縮短之，我們當然行政院可以訂一些要點、辦法、規章說你符合這個條件，我們讓你「縮短之」，但是如果裡面就寫得很清楚是十五年，然後沒有別的寫法，我們在執行上不能說冒出一個「得縮短之」，這個是逾越母法的授權，這個是實際的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛講的方向是確保十五年之後這個廟還好好的，第二個是十五年之後大家還會在意這個廟，這個是實際的情況，也是讓您知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "市府的朋友有沒有什麼想要分享的？" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "因為一直跟我們有一個很奇怪的連結，所以一般的話，如果直接修復的話，會有人有意見嗎？我只是好奇這個，如果產權大家都沒有問題的話，我們大家集合村裡面的人，我們就把它蓋好，一個東西是宗教的規則，其實是很嚴格，嚴格到他們都叫登記的部分全部來成立協會，但是我們都會一直切清楚說協會可以成立，像福德慈善會，但是福德慈善會不能管廟的事務。" }, { "speaker": "廖國欽", "speech": "我們最近一直在處理用福德協會，然後兩派吵了就說香油錢怎麼可以拿，然後就產生這樣的問題，但是民政單位就說未登記的寺廟並不是他們管的，人團的部分就會很可憐，只處理你們兩個的吵架，但是寺廟的問題還是永遠沒有辦法解決，因為大部分都是水利地，你要蓋起來又要合法的建築物，我們的民政局說成立協會就會合法了，但我們一直覺得那個是不合法的，因此我才會好奇……如果大家都沒有疑義的話，我們處理的都是不和諧、吵架的，如果你們大家都是和諧的話，我也沒有要你們成立協會來管理。今天募個2、30萬，然後把它蓋起來，然後大家講好，原則上是可以蓋。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且說不定還可以用私有老建築計畫的錢，是民國60年以前蓋的就可以適用。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "廟宇是在民國66年蓋的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "一開始蓋也不合法，而土地是私人的名字，一直到100年的時候，因為我們社區找出原地主，後來跟地主講以後，已經超出幾十年了，無條件過戶給我們，那裡是三塊土地，而且都是共有的，因為我們找到一塊地給我們過戶以後，又陸續找幾塊回來，我們幫他繳稅金，因此有過回來，我們才成立一個慈賢宮管理協會，但是問題還有一塊沒有回來，我們想要把它整體規劃，因為現在是共有地，有些東西可能會跟鄰居，我們現在還很和諧、沒有問題，我剛剛已經講是民國60幾年蓋的，因此有一些地方在那時的時空背景，我不知道怎麼蓋的，但已經有在漏水，而且漏得很厲害，一般的習俗說如果會漏就表示這個不好，我們一直想要補。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "像人家說漏水真的是不好抓，因此如果土地可以完整的話，大家可以把土地弄好的話，那就可以合法蓋一個。但因為我們的土地不完整，地主在4、50年代就不見了，如果下一代有過戶，人家已經完整給社區。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我理解。" }, { "speaker": "吳素秋", "speech": "那一塊因為太久了，而且他們也沒有過，但是他的子孫願意，問題其中有一、兩個不知道在哪一個國家，找不到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有辦法完全找到所有人，只是所有權人完全聯絡不到。這我理解，因為我住在新店花園新城，那個地方很多是這樣子的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個已經到達個案，快要沒有通案性了，是不是可以請市府的朋友，會後實際討論一下這個案子？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊有人舉手。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "想要請政委分享一下，因為難得政委可以進到彰化市，彰化市目前兩個議題，像我們自己做文化串聯，第一個是鐵路高架化、綠能風場，當然高架化有兩端不同的看法，從一開始喊到現在是20幾年，輪為選舉的口號，一選上可能又開始平靜。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "我自己的立場也沒有說非高不可，我覺得長期受到這個議題，會導致整個城市封鎖在某一個年代，大家會想說就是徵收，或者是儘量不要碰到那一邊的土地，可能年輕人要回來創業，但花了2、300萬整修好，過不久又要被徵收。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "想要請政委分享一下目前整個國家對於高架化的議題是持什麼態度？因為彰化市比較難得的問題是，再三年就三百年，比較難的是有一個扇形車庫在這邊，算是全球少數古蹟在使用的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "我們聽到很多風聲是展演，像梅小路的觀光，很多人希望它被保留下來及保存現有的功能，當然也有很多人提不同的政策出來，要高也可以，但是如何在保留扇形車站的同時又有高架的存在，也就是鐵路會移動，又或者是請政委跟我們分享一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "它不是縣定古蹟嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "它是縣定古蹟，但是有很多轉圜的餘地。還是會被保留，不會被拆，但是可能就變成表演。附近還有一個鐵路宿舍局，還有到農業倉庫，整個鐵道文化其實滿豐厚，我剛剛提的宿舍群，其實從抗爭到現在也四、五年，因為我自己是彰化市人，還沒有回到彰化的時候，其實我們就有機會期待或許大家可以進駐到那邊，其實一直處於推不動的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "當然也有台鐵的權利，也有市府跟公所的權利，我不是很清楚，但我們在做文化踏採的時候，我們知道那個是彰化很重要的古蹟歷史現場，也是一個活古蹟，目前中央對於善庫車站的政策是高架化或者是轉圜的空間。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "另外一個是綠能的風場，因為我自己是咖啡館的營業者，這一個議題很容易被出現在咖啡館裡面被討論，我覺得綠能勢必是整個全球化必須要邁向的一個大方向，可是風場的存在對於彰化縣的影響，比如侯鳥、颱風及海底生物的影響，透明化是不是可以透過懶人包，其實可以讓彰化縣的人更清楚知道是支持或者是反對，又或者是對於環評的影響是什麼，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們講的是離岸，對不對？往往並不是中間的文件不透明，而是拋出來之後大家能否理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們離岸包含遴選、中間討論的過程、遴選容量分布區域等等，像能源局有非常多的資料，我們滑臉書都會看到經濟部一直在po，包含能源轉型白皮書裡面有非常多的raw data，他們用資料視覺化的方法去呈現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實公部門不能說不認真，能源局花了非常多的時間，去試各種讓環境團體看得懂的情況。但從「最願意溝通」到「最會溝通」是需要一段時間，沒有辦法說最願意溝通，明天會變成最會溝通，但這是既定的方向，我們只會投更多的資源、不會投更少的資源，讓大家進入看得懂的過程中，這個是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我剛剛提到的一些連結，包含風力發電單一服務窗口（https://www.twtpo.org.tw/）提到遴選的過程、結果的容量，還有剛剛講的能源轉型白皮書（http://energywhitepaper.tw/）裡面，我們都有超連結，我們會附在逐字稿裡面給你。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，公民社會有一個「透明足跡」，也就是綠色公民行動聯盟，他們是拿環保署的資料，用大家看得懂的方法呈現，等於我們只要出資料，就可以用自己看得懂的方法，包含環境污染、排放的東西，弄成一個對於環境保護感興趣的朋友們可以一下子就知道哪一個地方違規排放，哪一個地方實際建了這個東西，本來哪一些東西對污染很有影響，其實這一些視覺化對政府很有幫助，也對我們一些案子的溝通很有幫助，這是一個可能性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "民間有透明足跡，政府也有一個網站叫做「民生公共物聯網」（https://ci.taiwan.gov.tw/）最近有在辦應用競賽，首獎是300萬，拿這一些環境數據資料，或者是拿能源或者是其他災防的資料，弄成大家看得懂的，有好的社會影響力的團隊，未來甚至可能包含國外的團隊，只要能夠增進溝通，我們是不吝惜給經費的，因為這個是最大的問題，我們資料都釋出了、對溝通幫助有限，所以如何解決這個，是相當重要的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為扇形車庫是縣定的古蹟，我自己在入閣之前，也有協助紀錄過像三井倉庫討論的過程，請理念不同的朋友們，越在同一張桌子上，越有可能理解到彼此在意的點，還是有一些共同的價值，這一些價值有一些解法，雖不滿意、但是大家都可以接受，若越不溝通或者是沒有起到一個安全空間的作用，大家越會用很片面的想法腦補——當然很補，但是都是錯的，好像雙方會越來越結仇的情況出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們從中央的角度來看，很鼓勵地方每一次在做規劃案的時候，都用這一種多方利益關係人同時進行討論的這個做法，但是我也很誠實地說，像這一種討論、參與式預算或者是協作會議等等，最大的困難是需要跨部門的朋友把自己專業的語言，轉譯成別的局處的朋友們都聽得懂的互相溝通及整合的能力，以前並不是公務人員的必修，我們必須要把這個能力補起來，大家才有可能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使是在一個縣府、市府或者是中央裡面，其實在意環保的朋友、經濟的朋友們、在意社會、勞動的朋友們，每一個會的語言都不一樣，如果內部沒有辦法達到一個共識，根本不用跟公民開會，我們內部就吵得亂七八糟。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是，因為政府一般來說，不會讓大家看到內部吵到亂七八糟的情況——我主持的會議除外（笑）——所以在此情況下，會沒有能力跟民間進行對話，這個是我們目前推行「開放政府聯絡人」的要點，想要解決的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前開放政府聯絡人相關的技術，有在台北、台中示範過，接下來台南好像要試行，但是有沒有普及到這個區域？目前是還沒有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從中央的角度來看，是未來盡可能用這樣的方式來討論，但是是要過一段時間才能達到那個情況，這也很誠實和你說。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "我的議題是比較傾向高架的方式去執行嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這真的不是我個人能回答的問題。" }, { "speaker": "黃書珊", "speech": "其實對於地方文化脈絡，有大幅度的調整。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實。我記得當初在推前瞻基礎建設鐵道的軌道時，也有朋友提到，是不是每一個案子在先期規劃時，都留一定比例的規劃預算下來進行協同式的討論，然後再變成實際進行的案子，以減少後面的爭議等等。不過，後來立法院討論之後，那一套想法並沒有納入。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "下一個可能的機會，是用地方創生會報的設計，去做這些討論。但因為今年是「地方創生零年」，明年才是「元年」，這些機制都還在討論中，我現在沒有辦法答應任何事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的理解是，我們很願意看到這樣的量能在公務人員裡面發生，但是我們也需要培力到一個程度，讓公務員自己不會覺得這是我們一定要加班才可以做得到的事，必須要建立一套很順的方法，大家才可以做，我們現在做的是建立一些標竿案例，然後充份記錄它的過程，讓這些做法不要被鎖在案例裡面，而是大家調回來可以看的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不好意思，我們超時6分鐘，今天就先這樣，之後要follow up的部分都補在逐字稿裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家對於辦理的情況，其實可以詢問社創的執行團隊——也就是社創實驗中心——任何時候直接email都可以，謝謝大家，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Would you mind first introducing yourself?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, I’m Audrey Tang, Taiwan’s Digital Minister in charge of social innovation, open government, and youth engagement." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "That’s great. What does that mean that you do on a day-to-day basis, or what’s your responsibilities in that? Or more like, what do you think the purpose is of what you do?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a conservative anarchist, I’m working with the government, not for the government. Again, I want the government to trust the people to work with them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very concretely speaking, whenever people complain about anything that the government does, we invite the people who complain into the kitchen, which is the social innovation lab co-designed by social entrepreneurs, and figure out solutions together." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "That was quite a short little bite there. You want to tell me the story of how that came to be? That sounds amazing. That’s what you were explaining over there with the other lady, wasn’t it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Just tell me the story of that, if you would." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I was 15 years old, I dropped out of junior high school to start my education on the World Wide Web, because knowledge was being created there. Then I ran into the fabulous Internet society that runs this crazy idea, what they call rough consensus and collaborative governance, that still powers the Internet until today." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea is that we demonstrated this kind of collaborative governance with half a million people on the street by occupying the parliament for 22 days during 2014. That’s called the Sunflower Revolution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the Sunflower Revolution, people who took the place of the MPs, the parliament, demonstrated that if you use good civic technology, you can have, over the course of three weeks, a converging consensus, rather than going nowhere, like some other Occupies did." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a real public demonstration. After that, all the mayors who did not support the Occupy gets not re-elected, and the mayors who did support the Occupy found themselves elected, even without preparation of an inauguration speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Afterwards, Taiwan’s political climate become open government first and crowdsourcing first, which is why we’re now number one on international open data, e-participation, women’s inclusivity, online participation, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was because the civil society did a really large demo of how to do collaboration together that I have this position today to act as a channel." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Thank you. That’s right to the point, and amazing and wonderful. What’s the relationship here with social enterprise?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I was a child and started learning coding, when I was eight years old, I did that to teach my brother and cousins mathematics. To me, coding was always for social good. It’s always like coding was the logic as the notes and the possibility of interaction as the melodies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Earlier, when I was 16 or so, I joined the free software movement. There came a pivotal moment in 1998, where the free software movement, part of our people became the open source movement, convincing the largest corporations in Silicon Valley to switch to a collaboratively-producing model." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This model, for example, Netscape becomes Mozilla. Mozilla makes Firefox, but very few people know the Mozilla Corporation is a 100 percent mission-locked subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation. They call themselves a social enterprise right on the front page." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like $500 million in revenue yearly. It’s employing over 1,000 people, and it’s one of the pinnacles of this open source movement, that we can find sustainable entrepreneurship models for the large corporations who see collaboration as an inherent good, not just something that they do in CSR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the social enterprise movement is somewhat like open source movement 10 years ago. We’re going from a movement into a generally accepted practice. Maybe not a best practice, but certainly better practice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is how I connect my work in the open source and free culture movement to the social enterprise and social innovation movements." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "How is that government changed so radically in Taiwan in such a short period? How is that example possible in a world where there’s massive disruption? In Australia, there’s political chaos. I’m sure you’ve heard about that. What’s the hope here for us in that context, that you seem to have an example of?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mostly, I think democracy for us is a very new thing. I still remember the martial law. That was 30 years ago, when we had our first presidential election. We don’t have hundreds of years of representative democracy as the tradition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For us, Internet and democracy comes on the same year. It’s natural for people to experiment and combine the two together. We see that in newer countries as well. In Estonia, for sure, but also in Madrid, after their transitional period from a dictatorship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think those newer democracies, because they were born with the Internet, has more of this rough consensus, collaborative nature in mind. Then that only means that we get to pioneer and pilot, even when it’s very expensive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any models that we experiment out -- for example, the Participation Officer Network, for example, the vTaiwan method, and so -- we all publish publicly on open access journals. We are now working closely with mostly municipalities, because we think that’s mostly where the innovation happens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s where people have the same lived-in experience to solve common social problems. We don’t know how to do national or federal level yet, but there’s quite a few cities that are in an alliance. For example, the D-CENT Project, now the DECODE Project, and so on, that works on this kind of collaborative governance in a city-to-city basis." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "This is good. This is really good. This is quite inspiring." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "I don’t expect someone like you, as a minister in government, because of my stereotypes, because my ideas. How do you feel about that, when you meet somebody, and you know you can recognize when somebody’s like, \"What? You’re a government minister?\"" }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Just speak to that for a moment, and then why you might feel at home here in the social enterprise house, if you will." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a government minister, I’m well aware that there’s many expectations that’s usually associated with hierarchical power. The value of the Internet, really, is to make sure that people who experience hierarchical power can feel that it’s being complemented, but not reinforced, by what we call the new power, or the peer-to-peer power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For me, I act as a bridge between the generations. When I go into the government, I don’t have a contract. I have a compact, or a covenant, from the civil society and the government side, with me in the middle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The covenant has three points:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, it’s radical transparency. Everything I see, I get to publish for the common good, and I don’t know any state secret." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that I don’t give command, nor take command. It’s all by voluntary association." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third thing, and the most important, is location independence. Wherever I am on Earth, I am working in the capacity as the digital minister. I get to tour around Taiwan, around Asia Pacific, around the globe, meeting people who are experiencing social injustice, experiencing environment issues, and so on, and tell them that #TaiwanCanHelp — and connect back to the social entrepreneurs in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Indeed, to the 12 different ministries associated with social innovation, so that they see through my eyes, through live streaming, through 360 live streaming, through virtual reality, the stories, the ethnographic descriptions of what people feel like in the field, and how their policies result in good or bad of the community development." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, I’m acting as a channel to make the strengths of the community and the strengths of existing career public service connect together, absorbing the risk, and make sure that the credit goes where credit is due." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "I want to ask you so many questions, but I’m going to just check my list. I don’t want to do all of them, but I want to make sure we have a few things that fit within this narrative that we’ve defined, which you’re blowing apart, anyway. [laughs] In a good way, don’t worry." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "I’ve heard a lot about the government thing here and social enterprise. Now, what would your message be for governments around the world looking at the social enterprise space?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The social enterprise people know how to do public governance, facing a particular issue, a social injustice, an environmental problem, inequality, and so on. For any minister, my message is that whatever your ministry does that corresponds to sustainable development goals, there exist social entrepreneurs that can do this job at a community level better than you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You better collaborate and make them partners. Not just contractors, not just vendors, not just grant receivers, but truly partners, and include them in the policymaking. The process determines the content of the policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you engage social entrepreneurs at the very beginning of ideation of policy, then the policy will not get wrong. If you look again and again, like for me, every week it’s my office hour from 10 AM to 10 PM." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can just come to me -- rough sleepers, people working on social work, and things like that -- as long as they agree to the transcription to be published on the Internet. I encourage fellow ministries to do the same." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe not one day every week, but certainly, one day every month or every quarter, to review, to renew the compact with the civil society, and especially the social sector." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "How did you discover this purpose of doing this in this very unique way, of bringing so much to the government part of it? You could have gone anywhere, but why government?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because democracy is recessing around the world. Taiwan has one of -- actually, the most -- open civil society, the most thriving civil society, according to the CIVICUS Monitor. The freedom of assembly, of speech, of association, if you click \"Asia\" and then \"fully open\", you only see Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not saying our Australian or New Zealand partners, or our Nordic partners are not doing better than us, but especially in Asia, we’re the one with the freest civil society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But with that, we have another statistics that says, the more free the civil society is, the less trust they have on institutions. It’s the paradox of our times, because the social media, the Internet, with disinformation, it encourage outrage, but it doesn’t encourage consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think as Taiwan is the region’s leader in terms of civil society freedom, we must develop civic technology to prove that you can invite the people with dissent, and make them into co-chefs in the kitchen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, other countries in our region are tempted to go authoritarian, or go back to dictatorship. I think this freedom, the torch of freedom, if you will, in the region is one of the reasons why Taiwan exist, and how Taiwan can help." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "How do you feel being here in Scotland?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s awesome. It’s my second time here." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Any comment on social enterprise from what you’ve seen here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I think this year, after a decade, we see the narratives being very mature, like this sector is ready to engage other sectors on an equal basis." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we’re really finding our identity here, and also spreading the identity to places like Ethiopia, to places where the traditional development programs have not exactly overachieved, and spread this new message of social entrepreneurship and value co-creation." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "How can we help you share this broader story of a radically different way of governing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s people writing books about the Taiwan experience. There is \"New Power.\" There is \"Death of the Gods.\" There’s multiple academic papers, some of which we publish ourselves. You can follow me on Twitter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s @audreyt, T as in Tang. Also, you can just follow the idea of g0v, which is G-0-V. That is the movement where people get to fork the government, to look at a government service, do something better as an alternative, relinquish the copyright." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the next procurement cycle, the government just merges it back. g0v and the Taiwan government, I think, are a perfect example of the civil society talking with the public sector as equals, and not as its subject." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Very good. Oh, my..." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "You’d like to share that haven’t talked about? The container for this is the closing film of Social Enterprise World Forum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know. Can you share the whole video with me? I know you are just going to use a fragment." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Yeah, exactly. I’d be more than happy to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have my email, right?" }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "I give you my promise to do that, OK?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, of course." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "I understand that that would be useful for you, and that’s how you operate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "It’s an agreement. Was there anything else you wanted to say?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. I would like to say that the sustainable development goals is a really useful index for us to identify the work that we do. For example, most of my work is in #SDG17 — including open data, international collaboration, cross-sectoral evidence-based collaboration, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would encourage people who work on social entrepreneurship to index themselves with SDGs, because if they do so, we can discover each other much easily, and Taiwan can help in each and every of those sustainable goals." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Good idea. I like that." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Hmm. Anything you want to say to the hosts?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you. Let’s meet again in Ethiopia. Also, next May in Taiwan, we’re going to co-host an event with SEWF. Fingers crossed." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "Oh, I see. There’s the little plug, and stuff like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Mikey Leung", "speech": "OK, all right." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Look, a place for our devices." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Much better for the gadgets, better. OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I’ve been in London for a couple days before traveling to Edinburgh by train. I’m going back to London for another couple days." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "That’s the best way to travel, by train." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Firstly, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate speaking to you. My first question is, how is technology helping government to connect with people who have come up with ideas to solve social problems, like social entrepreneurs?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, with radio and television, it’s very easy for the government to speak to people, almost too easy, but it’s very difficult for the government to listen, and for people to listen to one another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The kind of technology we’re working on, we call it civic technology. It’s mostly just to get millions of people to listen to one another, and also find their commonalities despite different positions, like common values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that, the common value finding, is a utmost importance to the governance nowadays when it comes to social entrepreneurship. Because otherwise, we will just have people lobbying for environmental values, for social values, for economic values, and so on without a coherent way to blend those ideas into a common value that everybody can live with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think technology really helps in the sense of it get everybody’s feelings out there and give everybody a safe space and to converge in common values." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Is there a problem when you’ve got lots of opinions and then you need to dilute that down to something you can work with?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all. If you design the space correctly with what we call crowdsourcing methodologies, we can use, for example, AI-moderated conversations. AI-moderated conversations, no matter whether it’s 10,000 people or 20,000 people, you can still see your friends and family and how they feel about a particular thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A good thing is that you can see yourself in relation to this people just by answering yes or no on their feelings. There’s no right or wrong about feelings." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "With something like this, the biggest number I can see is 550. Would you always go with the biggest number?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not looking at the numbers at all. We’re looking just at diversity." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Is it a democratic thing? If you’re trying to figure out whether to go this way or that way, if there is a majority, do you always go..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, we’re not counting numbers at all. If 5,000 people come and vote exactly the same, it’s just one dot here on the principal component map. All this is measuring essentially is what people feels. We always agree to disagree on a few divisive statements that clusters people round because there’s no reply button." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People cannot attack each other’s position. They can just share their even more nuanced feelings for other people to resonate with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say we hold ourself to account to determine the agenda of this vision which they culled us through this crowdsourcing. Anyone who come up with feelings that resonates everyone, we hold ourself to account to debate using these points because that’s what the people feel like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Always we end up with shapes like this where people focus so much energy on refining the consensus rather than just reiterating the points that polarize the people. We actually go on live stream and talk with the stakeholders using these consensuses as the agenda." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Government can be quite slow to move previously. How has tech helped to change that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think government is responsible for a stable service. At this point, I think technology mostly serves as automation, to save time, to make a public service work more efficiently, to have the career public servants focus on value delivery that requires human lived experience rather than doing repetitive paperwork." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just in terms of saving paperwork, technology is already helping a lot in freeing up the time of the public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the second level, I think with crowdsourcing and shared responsibility schemes like this, people also take some part of the risk away because government was always at risk if we make decisions in closed settings. If the decision end up not being a policy market fit for lack of better [laughs] term, then we face backlash. People protest and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now with this open government attitude, we just say if you complain, you automatically get an invitation to the kitchen. We’ll just do the policy together, through co-creation. That lowers the risk for the career public service." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "I have read a bit about the Social Innovation Lab. I think that’s what you’re referring to when you say the kitchen. Is that correct?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. It’s a kitchen with a resident chef." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "What was the Social Innovation Lab set up to do?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s set up to do as a pilot. It’s part of a larger lab called C-Lab or Taiwan Contemporary Culture Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The C-Lab is just in the heart of Taipei City. It is literally one of the most privileged places [laughs] in Taiwan because it’s near our central park, the Daan Forest Park, and also the Jianguo Flower Market." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s at the heart of Taipei, where we have this place dedicated for the social sector, for people to form the contemporary culture together. We think this kind of value co-creation is more important than just short-term delivery on some KPIs on economic development. These are all very important, of course, but unless we can establish common values, all these things are just going to cancel each other." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Can you give some examples of some things that have come out of the Social Innovation Lab?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many cases. I think the fundamental supporting structure is what we call the participation officers, our POs. In each ministry, there’s this theme of people. Just like media office is talking to journalist and also parliamentary office is talking to MPs, the participation officers are a network of people who talk to people with emergent issues like through e-petitioning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, this person, a designer, said that our tax filing system is explosively difficult to use. Our participation officer in the Ministry of Finance, who reports directly to the Deputy Minister, just sent invitation to everybody who complained about the tax filing experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we just hold five co-creation workshops together and then deliver a new tax filing experience that has 96 percent approval rating. The point is not actually this because if you spent enough amount of money, you always get good design." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What matters is that there’s thousands of people if not tens of thousands people’s input into the design. Even the other four percent of people who are not very used to this new interface nevertheless feel that the government is something you can iterate. You can have it continues, not transactional, relationship on. Their input will form our next year’s tax filing experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re now doing the Medicare card redesign exactly the same way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many co-creations going on in Social Innovation Lab nowadays. I used the digital examples because they’re more universal." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "It seems to me that when you’ve got this kind of participation, what it’s going to do is effectively, like you said yourself, you spend enough money design, you’re going to get there. In a way, this is saving government money plus it’s going to make them more popular." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And more legitimate." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "I was going to ask you about any notable social enterprises that might have emerged in your lab as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually there’s many social enterprise in Taiwan because Taiwan has been developing social enterprise for more than 20 years before the term \"social enterprise\" get imported from the UK. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I remember when I was six years old I think, that was 1987 -- now you know my age, which is public information anyway -- [laughs] my mom joined this foundation. They called themselves the Homemakers United Foundation for environmental protection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It started as a environmental awareness campaign. Very quickly, they found that if they form a consumer co-op and pool together the buying power from the agricultural people, then they can convince them to do agriculture in an environmentally-friendly way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They pool their resource together, not as producers but just as consumers, and then raise awareness just exactly this way. It’s one of the largest coops in Taiwan. They’ve been running for more than 20 years now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using a coop structure, I think, although they didn’t call themselves social enterprise, they’re communicating because it’s a co-op set up by a mission-oriented charity essentially. There is a co-op solidarity value but also the environmental, vocal value, social movement value." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is a prototype of Taiwan social enterprise in the sense that they participate in policymaking by just ideating and co-creating with the nascent democratic government at that point. Everybody learns how to do democracy together across sectors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the largest foundation and nonprofit, Children Are Us Foundation, work with the Down’s syndrome people and who are excellent in the bakery, and learn how to bake with teachers who have Down syndrome. They’re excellent people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It turns out that they’re very willing to work with young designers. All these visuals that you see here, including indeed the Social Innovation Lab, -- you remember soccer field -- were drawn by people with Down syndrome. Turns out they were excellent artists. They see the world through a different lens." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Unique." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re very diversified. There’s many other social design companies who turn, for example, this is people street vendor in a wheelchair, other with disabilities. Then turn them into mobile stations that carries WiFi hotspot, rechargeable battery station, emergency [laughs] umbrella stations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They carry fair trade coffee and things like that. Through successful crowdfunding campaigns, they turn what people think usually as a charity to these people into just mobile outlets. It’s like big issue, but..." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Micro-businesses, really." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...they can carry anything. They’re very mobile, and they’re always happy to talk with you about their city." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Do you mean that they had the idea for them to do other things, rather than just sell one kind of thing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, diversify, because social enterprise in Taiwan is an ecosystem. They can carry fair trade coffee. They carry all sorts of indigenous products, some of which are in our the Taiwan booth here. They become the outlet for all the social enterprises." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Presumably, they can make more money if they’re making progress." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Why was Taiwan’s Digital Minister involved with a place that will produce business solutions to social problems?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because I’m an anarchist. I’m a conservative anarchist. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Conservative\" means that I respect the tradition of the land, of our indigenous nations, of our people, of the various waves of migrants. All these traditions are important to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Anarchist\" means that I think, gradually, the civil society, the social sector, and the private sector is going just to take over. People who thought that something requires the state to do are increasingly seeing themselves as providing alternatives that works actually better than government to deliver on the sustainable goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m part of this movement, an anarchist movement, called g0v. It’s an international movement that originates in Taiwan. The idea, very simply put, is that if there is any government service that you think are bad, instead of just writing to complain, you can make an alternative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the legislation in Taiwan is ly.gov.tw. All the websites, of course, all ends in gov.tw, because it’s a government service. People think, \"OK, the national budget’s very hard to read. The parliament’s not interactive enough,\" and so on. They just build these g0v.tw websites." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All it takes is just to change the O to a 0 on your browser bar, and you get into the shadow government." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "The shadow government? OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, that provides the same information, but in a much more interactive kind of way. This is like the original 2012, the first project of the g0v movement. It’s just a visualization of national budget. You can click into each and every one of it to see how it goes, and then have a real discussion with other people around that budget item as a social object." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "People are doing this of their own accord, and they’re not doing it for money?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And relinquishing the copyright." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "They’re not doing it for money, they just want to make the information...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s in the voluntary sector, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "What do your fellow ministers think of the fact that civil society might put them out of a job at some point?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like people willing to work for free?" }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "What do in your fellow ministers think?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The thing is that it’s just like juries. It’s not putting judges out of a job." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "That’s true. That’s a good way of putting it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, the fact-finding, the feeling-finding is not something that we can do by ourselves. It takes ethnographic research to really get into somebody else’s shoes. What we’re doing, essentially, is not saying, \"People are completely replacing professional administration or professional expertise.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we’re saying is that the inputs should be varied. It should be inclusive. Even the facilitation itself can be done in a cross-sectoral way. The government, of course, their fellow ministers, they don’t feel threatened, because in Taiwan, the administration people, the ministers, are not MPs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our system has a directly elected president, who appoint the premier and the cabinet. Then usually, like 80 percent of the bills, the parliament deliberates, starts as a draft from the administration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The administration is remarkably party-free. There’s more independent ministers like me than members of any party in the cabinet. When we do this drafting with the civil society, if it requires a law change, then eventually it still goes to the parliament for the MPs to deliberate. This is basically increasing the quality and not replacing the MPs themselves." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "I think you kind of answered my next question. I was going to say, why should governments all connect with social entrepreneurs, and how should they work with them? I think in a way, you’re suggesting that maybe I should even turn that question around." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Why should social entrepreneurs connect with governments, and how should they work with them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] That’s exactly right. In Christchurch last year, I chaired this conversation about GOVT, government on one side, and MOVT, movements, on the other side. Social entrepreneurs are like the people who understand the language of both sides, and making good business cases for the government to take on some of the social movement’s demands." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, for the social movement to understand some of the government who has to offer, who cannot explain well in their language. Just through this interpretive work, the social entrepreneurs essentially increase the mutual trust between the government and the movement." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "It seems to me that what you are doing, the more I talk to you..." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "I sort of thought of you as a techno wiz." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which I am." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Which you are." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Also, that really, you’re a communications specialist." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "That’s what you’re doing, is you’re bringing people together. You’re breaking down silos, it seems. That’s how it feels, the way that you were talking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Basically, my training is in design of computer languages, and also machine learning for human languages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We cannot just change language; we cannot design language. Language exists larger than any of us. It’s a living system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through poetry and through art, we can change the words’ affect -- how people feel about words -- bit by bit. That is what systems designers do. We need to be humble, and see that this is a complicated ecosystem that we’re working with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we just change bit by bit, the bits can connect. The energy that’s within those different traditions, they can channel together to create something that is larger than any of those single movements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think of myself as just creating and facilitating the space for this kind of communication." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Did you always have an ambition to change the world, I know it’s a cliché, in this way, when you were younger?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know if the world needs changing, though..." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Altering, shall we say?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I was younger..." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "You’re doing things differently, aren’t you? You are changing things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My tribe is the Internet society. The Internet has been running like this for more than 40 years now; it is a very old tradition. The legislators of the Internet, they don’t write laws. They write requests for comments, which is a very humble and simple way to do consensus making." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly, the Internet society doesn’t have an army or a navy. So why do international governments work with the protocols designed by these anarchists? That’s because it’s for the good of everyone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we don’t have a good way to prove, in a radically transparent way, through how the protocols were designed, showing the Internet itself and the Web as good for everyone, then it’s nobody’s obligation to buy into those protocols." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This consensus-based collaborative governance, I learned about this when I was 14 or something. That’s the first democratic system that I knew. It’s only years later that I got my first voting right. [laughs] The representative democracy is my second language." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Did you always feel like you had power, even before you had the vote, because of your knowledge?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "How truly invested is the Taiwanese government in working with social entrepreneurs?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Completely. That’s because the idea of social innovation plan, as we call it. Because I don’t give commands, this is a voluntary association from the 12 ministries involved with social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are all seeing Taiwan as the place with the most free civil society in Asia. When you talk about freedom of speech, of association, of assembly, there’s just no place more free than Taiwan, which is why Reporters Without Borders and all those the international NGOs chose Taiwan as their headquarters." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They know that if they make a social movement that’s run counter to the government’s plan, the government is just going to join them, [laughs] instead of control, limit, or censor them. I think because of this, it is core identity of the Taiwan population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just got those freedoms 30 years ago. We still remember how is it like to have no access to these freedoms. It’s part of the identity. Maybe 100 years down the line, Taiwan people would start to see freedoms of speech as instrumental, as many other older republics are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan now, this is a core value, which is why social innovation is seen as on par, as a partner with the governance system. The government’s legitimacy rests upon the silent, quiet, successful revolutions of the social movements." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "One of the things I wanted to ask you about is your gender identity. Is there any connection between your gender identity and your interest in social enterprise?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. I think having gone through two puberties enabled me to empathize better with how people feel. Also, this is the old idea of intersectionality. Everybody has some places and experiences where they are at advantage or privilege." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At some places, they have this vulnerable part, and experience this world. They have been bullied, they have been attacked, and things like that. Just by combining those two, one can empathize with people in other vulnerable positions, suffer social injustice, while putting into the language of the privilege of how to get out from there, and how to unite." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To have a more singular voice, both organizational ability and this experience of vulnerability, I think, are very important. It is also true that Taiwan, because we’re also the only place in Asia that constitutionally recognize same-sex marriage, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a large LGBTIQ+ community that serves as my tribe for things that I work with. [laughs] The indigenous nations, there is matriarchies. There is third gender. There is indigenous nations where gender doesn’t matter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s all those different configurations, which is also why Taiwan is important in the Maori people, or people even as far as Madagascar, come back to Taiwan, say that their culture originated from Taiwan in the Austronesian tradition." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Why do you think the Taiwanese government wanted an anarchist to work with them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a mystery, isn’t it? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think part of that is because of the Occupy movement. The Occupy movement in 2014, while certainly not my idea, I was just there, supplying communication facilities -- the tech wiz part that you talked about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly not my idea, but it sends a very powerful message. This is basically the outside game that says, \"If the government doesn’t figure out how to listen to people well, we’ll be back.\"" }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Is it the threat of it? That sounds like a threat." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a threat of it. The compact with the civil society is really a compact between equals. It is not something that gives the government certainty and more legitimacy, just by signing the compact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is the government, at that point in time, having the legitimacy approval rating of below 10 percent, having a compact with the people who have legitimacy, but very little experience in actually working with career public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is why the neutrals, the facilitators, the people providing communication, the g0v community, the independent journalists who participate in the Occupy, were somewhat trusted by both sides -- the government and the movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not exactly social entrepreneurs, I guess, but we do have a crowdfunding model and a crowdsourcing model. There are many other experiments that we ran after the Occupy that generally gain us goodwill from both sides." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "There’s an expression in English. I don’t know if it translates. It’s, \"Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Do you think the government then thought, \"OK, well, we need to engage with these people, because then there’ll be stability, and there will be general agreement about the way country should move forward\"?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Once you learn that there are some common values, then they are not enemies anymore." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "My last question is about how can an anarchist work within a government structure? I thought that anarchists were something, they were opposed to government structures." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. As I said, I do not give nor take commands. That’s the anarchist part. If there’s one thing that anarchists can agree, it is against hierarchical power. All my colleagues work with me by voluntary association." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They rank themselves and score themselves. I don’t even know what they are up to until they share with me. Basically, what I am promoting is this idea of working out loud. My office, which is about, I don’t know, 22 full-timers now, I can technically poach one person from each ministry, but no more than one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the agreement part of the compact. The point here is that anything that these career public servants do, the capacity stays in the career public service. What I’m doing is a kind of servant leadership, which is why I call myself a public servant of the public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, they come to me when they want something on public record being designed in an innovative way, and engage more people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they think there’s some other things that they don’t want to be discussed in this fashion, like national defense or whatever, I don’t come to them and demand those kind of processes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the \"conservative\" part of conservative anarchism, because anarchism works really well if people see it’s good for them, and they join voluntarily, if you use violent means, and eliminate the people who don’t agree with anarchists, those anarchist revolutions usually don’t last long." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "I know you said you didn’t have a contract. I wonder if it’s difficult to work with you. I get the impression that you could at any point just think, \"I want to do something else now, and I’m going to leave,\" or that somebody wants to have a meeting with you about something, but there’ll be 25 other people there. Are you difficult to work with in that way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all. I’ve been actually lecturing the public service in the public service academy since late 2014 -- initially, they have all the people in rank 12, which is almost the highest rank in the career public service. There’s exactly 300 people in that rank in public service -- to basically listen to me, to how to communicate in the Sunflower technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It made some impressions. Some were very incredulous, [laughs] but some were supportive. I don’t know how 葉寧 here felt at that time. [laughs] In any case, like I explained this to the 300 people, afterwards the message just rippled." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I started training literally 1,000 or so public servants, with the people who supported the Occupy movement as their mentors on how to communicate. All this is before this cabinet, before this administration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The career public service, I think they trust me to know what their risk, their fears, their doubts around public participation. I would never take them by surprise. All the transparent record, actually, they get 10 working days to edit. Everything said in it are very professional. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Do you have an ambition? Do you think at some point, you’ll be done, and you’ll think, \"OK, we’re there with government now. All the systems are in place. All these people are in place. It can work without me,\" and you’ll step back?" }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Do you have an idea about that, or do you think this is a life work thing that you’re doing now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think democracy itself is a life. We are just the vessels in which democracy inhabits. This is all about what we call a blended volition, while retaining our individuality, of course. The idea is that the ecosystem, the earth, the social issues, they speak through us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is one of the older, animist even, idea of the Taiwan indigenous nations, that our current lifetime is just a channel through which the Earth or the spirits know itself a little bit more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is the seven generation view, the truly long-term view of civilization. I think there is nothing in me personally, because I’m just a channel, a vessel, of the spirit’s self-understanding in this stage of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "It sounds like you’re on a spiritual mission." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "You are? OK." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Two other of these I’d like. You don’t have to answer these, because they’re a little bit personal. You seem to work so hard, so how many hours a night sleep do you work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Eight." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Eight hours? You always get eight hours?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "With everything?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because that’s when I work." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "With your sleeping?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just absorb people’s feelings and the issues they’re grappling with without delivering judgment or delivering any solutions. I go to sleep with those questions." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "That sounds like a meditation, almost." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is. Then I wake up with some ideas." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Oh, really? Wow. What do you do for fun? A lot of this stuff is very serious, so what do you do for fun?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My hobby is troll hugging." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Is what?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hugging trolls." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Trolls? As in people who abuse you on the Internet?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "How do you do this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Say there’s a troll on the public forum, and offering 100 words of ad hominem attacks, vicious language, and toxic mentality, but 5 of which are really useful. Like, their authentic life experience. They have to get a catharsis out before they can share those five words that affects them personally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I will just reply to those five words very carefully, never spending more time than they have spent, but very carefully on just those five words." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Gradually, the authentic part of the troll gets drawn out, as they learn that the Internet seems vacuous, only because they want attention as a replacement of the hugs, handshakes, or kisses that they did not get in the physical world. That is why they crave the attention." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "However, the attention provoked by outrage is transactional. It’s with a different person every time. So they wake up feeling still very empty, and then just vent some more. If someone is willing to retain a long-term relationship by responding only with the constructive part, then we become actually good acquaintances, and even friends, all the time." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "You actually meet these people physically?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. I invite them to the Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Will you do the physical hug as well?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, that’s right, like literally give them a hug." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "[laughs] That’s amazing. It’s been so fascinating talking to you. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cheers." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Really, really good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Lee Mannion", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "The original reason I reached out was, after some of the stuff around our Digital 100 list, and then the story that we wrote, a lot of members were asking, particularly in the UK, how this revolution came about, both with the Public Digital Innovation Space and the Officers Network." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Just how you’ve been able to increase trust between public servants, between different departments. That’s why I reached out, to see if there was an opportunity to have a webinar on your experience sharing lessons learned with interested public servants around the world." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "The form that it would take is somewhat flexible. The idea is that the topic would be something that is useful for you. It would an hour long, ideally sometime in October or early November. Then we can be relatively flexible in terms of timing from your end. Is that helpful just in terms of background?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. Who would be the audience you expect? You expect mostly UK people?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Public servants in the UK were the ones who originally raised it. The story’s been popular around the world. The audience would be Apolitical members from our 140-member countries. It’s people who work in or closely with government around the world, depending on the time zone, would..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’ll just dial in. Usually, I use Slido to collect questions. It would be a live..." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "What do you use to collect questions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Slido. It’ll be S-L-I-D-O. Do you usually do such interactive webinars?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Yeah. What we normally do is, it’ll be interactive during in that it’s a 15- to 20-minute opening presentation, with the rest of it open for Q&A. Then also, when registering, we give members the opportunity to ask a question or thought." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Then we’ll share that with you beforehand so that you can get a sense of what’s on the mind of the participants, keeping in mind that that will change, depending on what’s brought up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds great. There’s a list of questions they want to ask, or things they want to hear about, for the webinar, about [inaudible 2:43] , how many days before?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "We generally try to share 10 days in advance, keeping in mind that often, there are a lot of people who wait until the last minute to register. We’ll share it beginning 10 days in advance, up until the week [inaudible 3:01] ." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you usually use WebEx?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Normally, we use Zoom, because Zoom tends to be the best for the most people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There will be many people dialing into the same Zoom meeting?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Correct. What people really appreciate about Apolitical is that it’s a place for me to talk about live problems with other practitioners. It’s not always as formal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a hangout between the practitioners, mostly?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "I would say a little bit more, in that it’s structured more than just a hangout, in that there’s a presentation and then a discussion. The style is less formal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like smart casual? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Sure. For example, we do an innovation lab show and tell between different public sector innovation labs around the world. Sometimes, people will show up at all hours of the day in their pajamas. They’re outside gardening, just wherever the day finds them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds fabulous." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Great. Based on the story, maybe you have ideas as well. What would be the most useful topic for you to share?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Share." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Especially thinking about that concept of how you’ve been able to build trust between public servants across department." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "They talk a lot about impact measurement. How can we actually evaluate or to show our impact, that can respond to the goal that reinforce the trust between citizens and the government? Measuring impact is something really important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How to measure trust through the measurement of the inner flow metric of the four pillars, but ultimately on trust and confidence itself. That’s one possible direction we’re taking." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "How to show that what reforms you’ve put in place are having an effect that they’re supposed to be having, then. Is that the...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Basically, have a theory of action with measurement in addition to a theory of change, which of course, we already have." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That would be really good, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any other topics comes to mind?" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Also, the challenge that I mentioned about decision making. The process that we did during the research stage, every time, when there are issues being raised at the monthly PO network meeting, we started to work on the research material with POs and those other civil servants from different ministries." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "We work on the stage, and also, we are able to define problems, synthesize information and define problems. We will have co-creation workshops that invite different stakeholders to come up with possible solutions." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "After that stage, civil servant, usually they can take those ideas that came out from the co-creation as an inspiration for them to improve the policies or regulations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re pretty successful up to this point." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Then when they take those ideas forward, usually those stakeholders who have participated in the co-creation workshop, they are not necessarily getting involved at the final decision-making process. We are challenging ourselves, can we involve more stakeholders at the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The delivery strategy." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "To delivery, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The delivery strategy." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That could be interesting, because the UK civil servants in particular are very focused on focused on delivery, I find. That’s making the strategy itself the delivery. I think that could be an interesting way they could contribute." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. We’re the Public Digital Innovation Space. We just went public digital." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "[inaudible 7:31] people like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and we also visited GDS, [inaudible 7:36] the usual suspects. Delivery is on everybody’s mind, especially because there was this austerity situation, which Taiwan doesn’t have. It may be actual what really propelled the GDS strategy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It really needs a crisis. We have some midsize crisis, but nothing as big as the delivery. The Occupy movement was a legitimacy crisis, of course, but it’s not a delivery crisis." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Is that emerging with you now, then? Have you found that this delivery issue, has that come up as you’ve tried to build services for people? Are you challenged now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s mostly about the language translation. How do we take the ideation that was co-created by literally 5,000 or more people, and with their input crowdsourced and tested, even into possible situations that are user journeys that are well mapped out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How to make the career public servants really dig this thing. In Edinburgh, someone who worked with the civil society strategy told me that the initial consultation was really high quality. There’s a few diamonds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the delivery process of forming the civil society strategy, it gets winded into small gemstones. [laughs] That within the capacity of each a little bit siloed departments to deliver, for sure. The whole picture get lost here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan is also pretty good at this [inaudible 9:13] process to get at least some delivery out. We’re not worried about that part. What Fang-Jui was talking about was this more holistic approach, or more holistic language getting lost in translation." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That’s really interesting. I imagine, it seems to be a problem that everybody is dealing with at the same time, which makes it so good to have people working on the same problem in every conceivable environment, which is great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Did you have any webinars around these topics?" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "With the innovation labs, have we touched on..." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "With the innovation labs, we did an impact and measurement special. Similar to what you mentioned, we had done about three of the calls with Denmark, Canada, and I think it was maybe New York City." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Then a theme that kept coming up was around impact measurement. We had someone who used to work in the Australian taxation office doing impact and measurement. Perhaps what I can do is I can send you a recording from that call, and see if there’s anything you’d want to build on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s pick up from there." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "This second topic is one that we haven’t covered. We’ve written about it somewhat." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "We’ve written about delivery, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "We haven’t done it in an ideas exchange live setting. That could be really interesting, if you’d like to explore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How to make delivery co-creative, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "We’ve had Andrew Greenway from Public Digital has actual written for us in the past, and knows all about this. He released a book recently which was based on it." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Just to add one more point also, the decision making before the delivery. Who get to decide what’s going to be delivered?" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "You’ve all put a lot of..." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Can it be more inclusive?" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Is that through vTaiwan, then?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, vTaiwan started working on this problem, but truth be told, it’s only as strong as the social movement that backs it. It’s the same thing as social enterprise. If there’s a strong social reaction to a social injustice, we naturally get good stakeholder distribution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there’s not, the government cannot manufacture nothing out of a lack of public outrage. [laughs] It is a real problem that we’re tackling with. There’s Holopolis, which is this speculative research project that tries to get, for things like zero-knowledge proofs around digital identity and data agency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not exactly something people have an intuition about, including decision makers, policymakers, and ordinary citizens. If we want to do vTaiwan method on that, the main problem is not the process itself, or even the stakeholder map. Just people can’t even know what these people are..." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Still not working, the translation [inaudible 12:16] ." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right, for the inform part as well. Also, of course, in transition justice for indigenous people and so on, it’s very different lived-in cultural experiences. The same word doesn’t mean the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Either it’s to find a future, or [inaudible 12:31] to find us, and that are some of the things that we’re wondering, actually experimenting a little bit if augmented reality, some of the other things like that, can help." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Oh, really? That’s really interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s another strength. Before we get that going, though, I just want to mention then the policymaking space is really constrained, because nobody even know what the relevant ideas of people are to the fact finding stage." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "You mentioned that you have done a few meetings while you’re here. You’ll be in New York. Where would you currently go to find the answer to some of these questions? Who would you first turn to?" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Then I’d like to think about how might we be able to expand that, and help you meet people you otherwise wouldn’t, get a chance to interact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That will help a lot. Personally, I’m just Global Council on Extended Intelligence, or Global CXI, which is a network of people who generally care a lot about participatory, humble design in the age of emerging technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my first community to reach out to, the Global CXI. Fang is involved in quite a number of, like 110 Gov, and I don’t know what gov design." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "110 Gov and International Design Government. It’s a Google group that initiated by GDS." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, we’re not too loud about it, but we’re in the Digital Nations Slack." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "You must be in contact with Pier Andrews and people like that, then, from New Zealand?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Are there any groups of people that you feel like you would like to be learning from that you don’t get an opportunity from right now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In London, we just met these people. [laughs] That’s [inaudible 14:39] ." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "More reach out. I think there is an organization that I am interested in to hearing more, because I saw the g0v news have wrote an article about the consultation that being hold in the UK, the high speed rail tube." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Oh, OK, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "I think you spent five or seven years for that consultation, but there is not much information about the process, and how many people are getting involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not so much as a postmortem." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "It’s badly managed, the whole thing. There’s so many towns on the route which are going to be flattened in order to drive it through those. I think the consultation has been limited to non-existent for the entire time. It will be an interesting thing to get into. We could look into that issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People usually don’t talk about it in their press releases or postmortems." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "It’s still seen as a thing 10 years down the line, even though they are starting to build it now. Certainly, these communities that are on the line itself which are being affected, which people care about, which is difficult." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Especially because it’s such a huge investment as well. There’s so much political investment in it now that people’s careers are on the line if they backtrack, or if it goes dramatically over budget. I think as a result of that, the consultation has been going badly." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That is definitely an interesting thing. We could look into that." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Because the news has draft the whole thing in a really positive way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The initial press releases were really well-written. Then we hear nothing." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Exactly, which is a bad sign, isn’t it?" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Especially because a lot of people are questioning why we were building this in the first place. It connects towns to London, but then a lot of people are arguing that it’s not about connecting places to London. It’s about connecting places in the north of the country to each other, or connecting Edinburgh better to Manchester, or Manchester to Liverpool." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That’s where the growth opportunity is. London can only grow so big. Dragging more people into London [inaudible 16:54] , it’s going to have a limit, I think. That’s what a lot of people are questioning, I think, with the investment itself." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "It’s such a huge amount of money. As in, it could have been spent doing lots more basic things on the northern railways, maybe, and just making sure...There are still diesel trains that run up north, rather than electric." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "A lot of our system isn’t electrified yet. There’s a history to it, which I think has been ignored up until this point. It’s a really interesting topic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’ll be really nice to contextualize this in the angle of the political mandate in the first place, the solution space, as Fang-Jui just mentioned, and as well as the architects who did the consultation planning, and then what they feel about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe not in a radically transparent record, but it will be very nice to..." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "I’m afraid that would not be possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It would be really nice to have a working level of connection to those people." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "We’ll consider. That’s really interesting. It was good to hear that High Speed Two has traveled over to Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "That seems great. Do you think you would be able to just send me what the description for an ideal webinar would be? Just around how do you make delivery co-creative, and some of the themes we’ve...I can send you some of my notes as well, but then it’d be great if you just sent me something so that we could use that as the basis for an invitation. Would that be OK?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We were just talking about maybe you should do the material planning, and I will be the spokesbot for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If Fang-Jui is interested in co-chairing the webinar, that would be more than helpful." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Oh, yes." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Lots of pressure. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "It’s good pressure. It is. They’re not looking for you to be anyone but yourself. You’re just speaking with people who are like you, who are thinking about the same challenges as you. That’s how I would approach it." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Sorry, I might have missed the period of time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s October to November for one hour." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "October to November for one hour." }, { "speaker": "Sean Long", "speech": "Perhaps maybe when Anoush can start the more formal interview part?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, maybe we can move to another table, then, and figure out the logistics." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You OK with that?" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, all right." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All right, let me check the volume levels. It seems good, all right." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Perfect. To give you a bit of background into what it is I do, we have the network function as part of what we do, but we also try to publish journalism about policy, the policymakers, and how people are working." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That’s based on what people who are working in roles like yours should be reading about and should know about. That’s my role for Apolitical, in that I cover our digital government side of the things. I have, for the past year, been trying to get my head around things which are beyond my grasp, basically. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Then write them up in a way that means that your average public servant can get a grasp of the issues that are behind things, and work out how they may be able to approach them themselves." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "When Sean mentioned that he was meeting you and were arranging a webinar, I jumped on the chance to talk to you about your own work, and the history of your work. It’s fascinating. It would be great to dig into some of that. Just so I’m sure, in 2014, that’s when the protests kick off, and that’s when government falls." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "You begin this process of working out how to transfer that movement into politics itself, and how you can bring some of those reforms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The \"you\" you just said there is plural, right?" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s literally more than 20 NGOs in the Occupy. The Occupy certainly wasn’t my idea. I was just there supporting their communication. The g0v segment is one of the three neutral groups, generally regarded as impartial during the occupy, which provides communication." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other two neutrals are the doctors and the lawyers, the teams who separated regardless of the message or the NGO. Even the anti-protest spirit is because communication is a fundamental human right and all that. I think what this means politically speaking, is that all the teams, the three teams the doctors, lawyers, and club zero gained legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is perhaps at times even more than the movement itself, because it’s trusted as a neutral arbitrator, or at least neutral supporting to all the sides involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My personal involvement in the cabinet setting was when Jaclyn Tsai, the minister at the time, went to the g0v hackathon. I think there’s two dozens, like 20-something people, who collaboratively ideated the first vTaiwan concept." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the multi-stakeholder setting and things like that, it’s basically an adapted Internet Society decision making process. I think nobody can take full credit for it, because it’s a very full co-creative session, even at that hackathon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then just as we’re implementing it, the election came. Non-Occupiers lost all their seats. Occupiers and supports found themselves mayors, even when they did not prepare for it, so the cabinet all resigned. [laughs] Then, of course, Jaclyn Tsai still retained her position right afterward." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s when we started worked for real, because this election at the mayoral level sends a very clear signal that anyone who is not for crowdsourcing and open government lose the election. That became the national direction by the new premiere." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s the legitimacy trail that led to our work with the cabinet at a point. I think I am just one of many. I am perhaps seen as more of a symbol, simply because the initial set of lectures, which is delivered to all the rank 12 public servants, there is exactly 300 of these people in Taiwan administration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was the invited speaker, along with another futurist who went to Singularity University. The two of us become more iconic, but we’re really just one of many, many people." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Did you have any idea when you first went along to those protests in 2014 that it would lead to this point now, with a cabinet position, being able to implement some of the ideas that the movement was thinking at that time? Did you imagine back then that this could be what would result?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly, because g0v has this long tradition of forking the government. What we were offering, basically, is a demo theme, a theme for a demonstration for viable attendees. Because we relinquished copyright, naturally, the government just merged things right back in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the inaugural g0v project, the budget visualization, which gets merged this year into join.gov.tw. Actually, all the 1,300 government projects, including their procurement, research, and milestones, and whatever are social objects around which people can have real discussion with career public servants." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by choosing this domain name, basically it says we’re a standby solution for the government." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "I wanted to ask about that, actually, with the g0v link. I was reading some of your earlier interviews before I came out here. There was a point you made, I think, about it’s having technologists work with government and not for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "If you could expand on that a little, about what that means in terms of the practicalities of governing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. My appointment is, I think, politically significantly because I’ve always billed myself as a conservative anarchist. Having an anarchist minister is, I think the last time that happens was in the Spanish Revolution or something. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It requires a new compact to be reached. The point of radical transparency and the social innovation is that I don’t give command nor take command, but I just act as a very reliable channel to contextualize policymaking, so that the civic society can know exactly what’s going on, in a way that make the public service sound still professional." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re allowed 10 working days to edit and all that, but then the collective intelligence here can then feedback in much earlier in the process, like a huge amount of difference in terms of time. Once the channels are in, again, of course, I act as a liaison to make sure that it’s civil, it’s a well-designed place where trolls have no effect, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The voluntary association part means that the civil society is held as an equal place as the government. I think that’s what I mean by working with the government, meaning that it’s not giving the government more mandate or legitimacy through this technology. It’s complements hierarchical power, but it doesn’t reinforce hierarchical power." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "I see. That’s interesting, because it seems over the past two years, at least, the threats from technology have come to the fore far more than the potential benefits. I’m thinking of the Cambridge Analytica scandal and the weaponization of Facebook and other social networks." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Meanwhile, you build a network or a system that allows people to make collective decision making in a collaborative way, which negates all of that, and takes out the conflict, and the reduction of debate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s nonviolent communication." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Did you feel that the potential danger of technology back end when the movement was creating the vTaiwan platform then? Did you see the potential for online spaces to be potentially damaging to debate?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. We were around in the previous generations of P2P networks: Gnutella, Freenet, SETI@home. Back then already, this whole debate that we’re now having around distributed ledgers and around surveillance data and whatever, database nation, has already happened in the cypherpunks community way back then." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a contributor to Freenet, and also was around when the Golden Shield and the Great Firewall was still being prototyped in its nascent versions, we were literally at the front line, just as Estonia was, of the ramifications of all the different interplay of technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We thought a lot about it, and our Snowden moment came much earlier than the Snowden moment for the rest of the globe, I guess. [laughs] There is a concerted work around disinformation in Taiwan, about the rapid response from government, predictable, four hour or less response to each and every disinformation that’s being spread." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of a balanced report on paper, we have to have a temporal balance on the Internet. This whole paper balance thing doesn’t work in interactive screens, for obvious reasons. We work with multiple civic tech communities on automated response strategies for fact checking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to be independent, because the government can also spread lies. They were chaired by reputable journalists and/or civic hackers that are known as not exactly pro the TPP government. I think it’s the best of the both worlds, because nobody’s freedom of expression has been compromised because of this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, people have a reliable way of, if it’s on instant messaging, like places where search engines can’t reach, they have a bot where they can just forward to, and the bot goes back with a fact check, crowdsourced and auditable response." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s civic technology in every different media modalities that use collectively the rapid response format from the government, but of course, also from every other stakeholder as well. It’s a collective fact-finding process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s unique in Taiwan that we were able to build that, because in every other country in our region, the far easier way is just to put a restraint on the freedom of expression. Our no-compromise solution is the result of Taiwan people holding the freedom of expression as core, not instrumental, but like national identity stuff." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "This is interesting. There’s a quote I remember that seems to be particularly relevant, is that, and I think it’s what some of the public digital was saying from the very beginning. That’s, \"Software is politics now,\" and it probably has been for much longer than people realize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Code is law.\" Physical law, but yes, law. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "It seems that for your work, and through the work of public servants in Taiwan, there’s this constant commitment to making sure, to thinking about what democracy means in the current era, how technology will interact with democracy, and how you can help it to fulfill its promise through that." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Has that been the project from the beginning, then? Being able to think to try and think about technology not as an-add to politics, not as an app that you can just stick on the end of a government service, but something that from the very beginning is going to affect the way that people communicate?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. If you look at the first few requests for comments in the Internet Society, it’s all politics. They were very clear that what they’re doing is new kind of policymaking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As the Internet grew out of DARPA, people start to look at it and wonder why an anarchist group with no army nor navy can get sovereign entities to follow its protocol, literally, and not actually having to be subsidiary to any particular political entity. Especially after Snowden, now they are really sovereign now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that political theory is on everybody’s mind. At least the core folks who work in g0v movement, we first introduced blogging to Taiwan in the translated web blog, and also the netizen mail list, and the media globalizes, you name it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re very cognizant of the inherent political nature of code, and have been doing so for the past 20 years or so." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "One thing I was interested about was, why has this happened in Taiwan? What is particular to Taiwan that has enabled this to emerge in such a strong way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you look at the CIVICUS Monitor, obviously, Taiwan is the only place in that region. If you click Asia, and fully open civil society, Taiwan is the only place. I think that is the background. It forces us to make technopolitical decisions that upgrade our improvements that leaves nobody behind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In every other country, it’s far easier to just go the oppressive or slightly oppressive route. That’s one thing unique about Taiwan, in that we still remember the martial law, and we’re not going back there. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that I think our geography really makes it easy. Although we have 23 million people, on the main island from Taipei to Kaohsiung, north to south, is one and a half hour by high speed rail. It’s actually just slightly larger than municipal level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before 1998, Taiwan used to be called a province — of course, we don’t say that now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, the number of people in Taiwan are far more than other municipal or provincial areas of the same size. The good thing about this is that when we say, \"Broadband is human right,\" we really mean it. It’s easy to deliver." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People don’t feel excluded if you introduce cutting edge civic tech or gov tech, because our Internet readiness, literacy, participation, whatever, it is very high on the marks because the geography, not because, I think, any particularly wise policymakers. It is a reality of the geography." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That, I think, is what we call maybe a critical mass reached by the living lab, because it’s enough number of people with enough diversity, with four different layers of cultural layers all in one place, but with largely shared languages, and with broadband as a human right. I think those are the preset conditions for the experiment to happen." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "When you entered government, did you see the public service as prepared for the reforms you wanted to do, or is this a decade-long project that you’re having to work? Are you finding the average public servant easy to work with? Are they open to the changes that you want to bring through?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The voluntary association part means that I only meet people who are ready to work with me. I don’t go to Ministry of Defense and say, \"Tomorrow, you’re going to change your ways.\" There’s limits to servant leadership." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think in this current age of digital being massively weaponized, as you said, maybe servant leadership and people-centric design is really the only feasible way forward. Otherwise, if you concentrate too much power, like central registry for all your citizens’ data or whatever, that that’s very explosive. I won’t name countries, but that’s very explosive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we’re now seeing is a general, I think the term used in the UK is devolution of responsibilities and techniques. We usually say democratization of technology. That is a far more familiar phrase, but I think it means generally the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It means people in every level are equipped with the appropriate level of tech. It doesn’t have to be shining, emerging, or trending. It just gets the job done, and makes the experiments’ costs very, very low, so that innovation can happen very quickly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we all prefer open source in basic education, and certainly higher education as well. People are not tied to particular ways to solve problems, and also are not locked in when their goes away." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think even in administration, digital service itself, we prefer to say we’re API first, so open API, not very indoctrinating people on open source. I think people are generally raised in an environment where open innovation is cherished." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is the reason why I don’t encounter much resistance because it’s taken for granted that Taiwan’s strength is finding common values despite difference." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Yep. When did you decide to make radical transparency your approach to your work? Was it straightforward from the beginning or did you find there were difficulties that you had to overcome?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve always worked this way in the Internet community. I led the Pugs project, which was the first working Perl 6 implementation. We mobilized hundreds, thousands of participants by acting in a radically transparent way and basically have all language communities and to hand them commit bits, meaning that we just make them into co-authors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s radical trust in addition to radical transparency. It really works really well. That’s how we get these huge projects like Perl 6 to run. The main lesson there was that the designer, in their language, computer language, but language needs to be humble because language is larger than us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Language is literally you can only change it bit by bit. Also, you can maybe change people’s feelings toward words, but you cannot change people’s words in their minds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A designer of language is, by necessity, a poet. With logic as notes, and possibility of interaction as melodies, but the poetic part of it is where the radical trust and transparency really comes in. You can’t withhold information. A poet that withholds information is..." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "...a bad poet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I think that’s the poetic angle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the Icelandic Pirate party, there’s a fellow anarchist, Birgitta Jónsdóttir, who calls herself a \"poetician.\" I think is a very similar idea. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "That’s very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s just this part. Also, the kind of prototype of the way I work in the cabinet now was in the K-12 Curriculum Committee, which I served before I joined the cabinet. At a time, it was a huge legitimacy crisis in the curriculum reforming process. That threatens the curriculum reform itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just joined and personally typed in all the notes, everything, everybody who have spoken. That really informs the kind of balanced...like edit before publish and allow people to hide behind nicknames if they feel that the power structure is unequal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s lots of nuts and bolts of radical transparency that makes everybody comfortable. Had I gone in with a live streaming camera, I would get nowhere. They’re educators, so they understand the value of trust building." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When the legitimacy was, I think, in the single digits was to manage to recover the whole curriculum building process and that survives the presidential election because, first, the radical transparency, and second, involving actual students who protested in the Curriculum Examination Committee. They’re finishing up their web now. It’s the first time in Taiwan that includes students, parents, whatever, in the process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is largely the prototype of this thing that I’m doing now." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "One thing I found really interesting in this is where power sits in this new way of doing things. With you being with the people who are build systems and services and things like that, you would think that the power lies in the hands of the people who are able to build things and deliver things." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "At the same time, if you take this approach to the design work, whereby you make it as...You’re almost limiting yourself in the way that you’re able to exercise that power that you have. I think that’s interesting, especially when, like you were saying earlier on, about how there is a translation gap between what people understand from technology and what people who build the technology are able to do." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Is that problem solved in the design then? Do you need the commitment to the democratic process from the beginning then in order to make sure that you aren’t taking power away from people who ultimately are using the service and are benefiting from it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. In a Castellian universe, the power I’m referring to would be called \"network-making power.\" The analyses of Occupies and so on are very useful, but let’s think back in communication power. Castells analysis of network-making power is essentially, again, a power of suggestive use of words that leads to effect, change, and action." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This kind of suggestive or facilitative, however you want to call it, power, I think it’s only fair to deploy such power in a way that is under radical transparency because otherwise, we’re talking about fascist propaganda stuff. Which is why I limit our people power so severely because to wield the power is wrong. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is if I’m seen as partial to any political party, even international political parties, then all this work is undone. Again, this is a crosscutting work that basically reshapes the silos. Every political party has favorite agenda that favors a ministry over another for obvious reasons in all the countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Being partial to a political party or a political movement or ideology is essentially saying, \"OK, so maybe this cross-ministry stuff is not so cross-ministry at all. It is about leveraging one ministry to serve the cause of another ministry.\" That will just dissolve the peer network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s, again, the second reason why I limited power. It’s not just I never analysis viewpoint, that was a very practical viewpoint." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "I hope you don’t mind me asking a personal question, but..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, not at all." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "You’re Taiwan’s first transgender minister?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The world’s first." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Is it something that you think about often? Does it come off in your work or be found up in any obstacles as a result of that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The main step, my gender performance is more fluid. Having gone through two puberties, I’m more able to empathize with people, I guess. There’s a whole notion of intersectionality, like having a organizational advantage or even privilege in one hand, but having a really vulnerable lifting experience, on the other hand, and using the former to help people in the latter, and even across different movements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That just comes natural. It is not something that I particularly label myself in. That’s because Taiwan really has a really good LGBTIQ+ community and the first constitutionally recognized same-sex marriage in Asia. It is generally seen, of course, as my tribe, but maybe not my primary tribe." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My primary tribe is, of course, the Internet society and the open culture movement. But yeah, it’s just something that people take as just what I’ll do. Yes." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Empathy is something you mentioned earlier as well. I find really interesting as well this idea that, especially because it seems that the Internet has become a breeding ground for a lack of empathy, especially in United States. It seems that it can be a tool for people you would otherwise never meet and just talking to people you otherwise wouldn’t meet. Again, is a design problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is. It is a design problem. It is also a problem of basic literacy. We designed in the new curriculum nine elemental characteristics or characters that are the go of education. Instead of other Asian educational traditions, which put emphasis on skills or disciplines in persons afterwards, we focus on character building." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The three category of characters are autonomous, the curiosity and stuff like that, and interactive, being able to communicate across different ethnic, cultural and discipline backgrounds, and also the common good, by finding out common values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Within the communication category, there’s one core character that’s ICT and media literacy, which talks about critical thinking, talks about being able to see past the agenda of a writer and things like this. How this information is manufactured and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also the Asia’s only place, to my knowledge, to just include this in basic education, not as a separate class, but just in a way that each teacher approach their class. We’re now at a point where the students are using mobile phones to check on Wikipedia whatever the teacher says anyway. We might as well leverage that instead of fight against that. It’s a losing battle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re basically just making teachers cooler. That’s a far more interesting way because then the teacher can demonstrate critical thinking in terms of a custom project that solves the local community needs, that calls information from all the different strands, but people with charged and loaded and vested interests." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Student gets exposed first hand to why people would like to share partial truth and why the media portrays or frames things this way. I think it’s really powerful that we’re having this in our core curriculum." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Comparing now to your own experience of the education system, does it come from an idea then that the education system, when you were growing, was lacking or failed in a particular way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was a junior high school dropout. I don’t really know much about junior or senior high school education back then, having no lived an experience. My friends told me that yeah, it was pretty score oriented and pretty competitive in terms of individual competitiveness, which never made any sense to me anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can see competitiveness across different groups that solves the same problem, but within the group, competitiveness is obviously wrong. In any case, I can’t see the point, so I quite the school and joined the World Wide Web." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan really has a good... g0v is not the first movement that was funded mainstream. The experimental education movement started far earlier. My brother, four years my junior, is the first generation that are allowed to be educated in alternative schools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My mom, being one of the earliest cofounders of autonomous schools, basically carved out in their movement a place now where up to 10 percent of Taiwanese students can choose to be homeschooled or attended to school, or whatever. There’s a thriving community of people who want an alternative to education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After more than 10 years of experimentation of all sorts, some of that which failed spectacularly, and essentially paying tuitions for other people to not repeat your mistake, the experimental schools system, education system, some really good ideas emerged that are particularly fit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s almost like a swarm-like process. That are particularly fit to our current media and ICT landscape, which is why we’ve basically just harvested those ideas back into the basic K-12 curriculum. This is like a research versus development relationship." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "I don’t want to keep you all day, so finally, I just wanted to ask, what’s next on the agenda? What’s your plan for the immediate future?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The immediate future... I fly to New York tomorrow. There is this general assembly thing. We’re just working with people on sustainable development goals. Basically, make Taiwan’s offering in all of the SDGs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we SDG-index all the different social innovation work, and link places where Taiwan can help, but it’s just not very vocal, very loud about it, to the international community in a way that empowers the civil society and the social sector, rather than just the public sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of Taiwan’s special relationship with the UN, we think that’s the very practical thing going forward, and indeed agrees with the SDG’s ideas of multistakeholderism. I think, had this been a multilateral situation, like the Millennium Development Goals, then the social innovators in Taiwan wouldn’t have much chance to participate in the agenda setting and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because SDGs engages major groups and academic links, such as SDSN and things like that, the 17 goals are inherently what we call an ACE, actionable, connected, extensible member. You don’t have to be a UN member to use the hashtags, the icons, or the logo type." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re just going to use all of it, and basically make the vocabulary something that is pertinent to our region. Anything that we solve domestically, we can export in a way that also empowers the civil society in the receiving end, instead of traditional development assistance, which doesn’t always focus on the empowerment of the local civil society and social sector." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Sorry, I’m going to steal one more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, you ask lots more. It’s not even one hour yet. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Just thinking about scale, because you mentioned that Taiwan is a very concentrated geography. Does this approach become more difficult the larger the landmass, the larger the number of people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It does, it does. The reason is not just Internet connectivity, which eventually they’ll solve by balloons or whatever, anyway. It’s in the lived-in experiences of people. It’s far harder to get empathy when your constituency spans multiple time zones. That’s just a given." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not very clear that this approach can scale to the scope you just mentioned, like the federal level. We’re pretty sure that this works in municipal levels, with a lot of partners. Now, in the provincial level, this is an active research question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How do we get multiple smaller cities to chain together and have collective visions without losing their identities? It’s also something that the UK is facing. I think it is an open political research question in our time." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Coupled with that, I suppose, is how do you engage people who have a low level of technological literacy, who maybe don’t turn a computer on every day, or feel alienated by it? I realize that in Taiwan, there’s a lot of emphasis put on going out into communities and meeting people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Digital opportunity centers, and basically bring the tech to people, rather than asking people to tech, assistive com technology. All this are just a given. We designed the space such that, for example, in rural islands, that’s one of the cases in the PO network, where a lot of fishers, people who want to keep fishing as part of their core identity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, people say, \"This is a marine national park, and you better ban fishing.\" There’s traditional very zero-sum situations, where we try to carve out a way toward co-creation. The deliberative setting we have is in a room, where people who are relatively more acquainted with digital and Post-It Notes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one room with stakeholders, about 20, 30 people. That is live streamed into a large town hall, where the local environmental activists or fishes people and so on basically watch the live stream of Fang-Jui there chairing the discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m the anchor here, like an ESPN anchor, translating play-by-play what does this slide mean? They can have all sort of protests or whatever, a number of actions, acting out their frustration or whatever toward me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the media loves it. All the SNG or whatever are on the town hall. This is not being live streamed back. This group can focus on the actual issues at hand. People here generally want to see the movie. People who protest or whatever don’t do that for long." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We designed the space very carefully in the sense that people here, if they reach any idea or thoughts, they can shout. They can just come and talk to me or one of the helpers, and also use Feng on Slido or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We channel them back into the context of the mind map that Feng Ray is mind mapping. The people in the small room always receive the feedback through the larger room, or indeed the live stream Internet community, in a structured way that is always already tagged within the context of their mind map discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is like a demodulator. It’s just keeping the signal, and also contextualizing the signal, while making people feel free to vent their frustration to a minister. Only the constructive part are taken into the discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We did that in Hengchun as well in a rural place, where a popular tourist destination, and there’s lack of medical resource. People want Ministry of Interior to deploy helicopters to serve as ambulance to the large hospitals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We end up just building a large hospital there, and maybe fly doctors in instead of the patients out. Then we use the same dual room connected spaces approach." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "All of this seems to be built on this incredibly subtle understanding of the way that people communicate and think with each other. Is that something that just comes intuitively, or is it based on research and focus groups?" }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Is just an understanding of the way that people communicate, particularly online, that you’ve built up through being part of these communities online over the space of time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a good question. The initial software that vTaiwan uses, this discourse system, the Civilized Discourse Construction Kit, I think it’s part art and part technology. The builders of this course are people who have decades of experience moderating the largest forums online. They’ve seen it all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After seeing it all, they think really carefully on how to devolve their moderation theory..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Moderation is good, in theory; theory is good, in moderation.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, they just theorized the stuff that they can. Otherwise, they just add in knobs, and have the discourse operators try different settings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s also a very heuristic, genetic algorithm thing that then the discourse itself also iterated, based on the quality of discussion around the different companies. They discover this, and deploy this open software." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think all social interaction design is like that. You have to start with some core principles, pillars, but then you have to make no assumptions at all, because people change. People’s behavior changes, double hermeneutic all the way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When people change, the facility that hold them, the space need to change as well, which is why my office, the Social Innovation Lab, is designed like this. It’s co-created initially by hundreds of social innovators. This is literally my office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are painted by people with Down syndrome. Turns out they are brilliant artists. Because I’m here every Wednesday 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, people who want to change the space, they come to me, and we just co-create. This is a continuously evolving architecture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this really symbolizes co-creation, in the sense that when we hold collaborative meetings there in the PO network, even for people with very antagonistic relations with each other, just stepping in this place lowers their toxicity against each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think a lot of it is just getting people’s rights, and making sure that they have an open feedback mechanism, and the space can change to adapt to people. It’s like co-evolution or stuff." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "From reading, I think it might have been the Medium post which accompanied this. One of the sentences that stood out, which was about trying to reduce the level of fear that public servants have when they go about their job. Is that a challenge that you’re yet to overcome?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we’re pretty good now in that way. When people think about e-petition or public participation, they think there is a method to it, and there’s viable cases to compare to. There’s a supportive network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I think this whole \"fear, uncertainty and doubt\" thing was mostly because they got the consultative experience in a way that doesn’t add to their professional mission. The previous cases wasn’t always aligned with the professional vision and career." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People go into public service for all different motivations, but in the end of the day, they serve the public. If a consultation is done in a way that abuses hierarchical power, all the public service will get this intuitive feeling that this is not really contributing to public discourse, and it really makes their appetite of any future engagement lower." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By building safe space supportive networks and useful postmortems, sharing food, we were able to overcome most of these initial knee-jerk reactions. That part is already done." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are still building the small cases, celebrating small successes, as we go. As I said, if it’s too far in the future, too far in the past, it’s not very clear how to do it yet. We just admit to this limitation." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "I don’t have any other questions. It’s been incredibly interesting. Thank you very much for taking the time. Thanks for being so thorough with the answers and everything. It’s great. Really useful, thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Anoush Darabi", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cheers." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "First, thank you very much for your time this morning. I think we’ve all read about your work in this space, and we’re very grateful that you’ve agreed to come on board and give us your thoughts and views." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "We’re looking forward to hearing what you think about citizen engagement. I don’t know if you have a background as to the leaders report and the work that we’ve done on the leaders report?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read what you described on the email as well as the questions, so I have a general outline. If you would add more context, it’s great." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "I think your email covered everything. Essentially, the leaders report is done by the WPP government practice. It is a report that explores the future of government communications and starts to think about how it’s evolving and where it’s going. What are the key factors that will enable effective government communications?" }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "We did that in 2016. It was launched in Davos. The aim is to now do another round in hopefully 2019 and launch it in Davos. Again, the objective with this is, again, to speak to people, to speak to senior government communicators like yourself, understand how government communication has evolved, and also to start to understand from you what are the big enablers, what are the big barriers that you’ve experienced?" }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Also, to start understanding how citizen engagement is evolving, because a lot of governments are increasingly talking about citizen engagement, and of course you’ve done a lot of very interesting work in this space." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "To understand from you how it works in your area of work, and again, what are the enablers, what are the barriers, and really get your views on that. If you have any questions for us, please..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This sounds about right." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How do we proceed?" }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Just for the purposes of the interview, would you mind -- I mean, we’ve read your profile, but if you could just tell us what your responsibilities are and take us through that, that would be a great start." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m Audrey Tang, Digital Minister @ Taiwan. My mandate is youth engagement, social innovation, and open government, which are very closely related. When I joined the cabinet around two years ago, in October 2016, I had a kind of compact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not a contract, but a general agreement as to my working conditions. There were three main principles that sets this experience apart from many other ministry positions around the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The three, which I will expand a little bit on, are: radical transparency, voluntary association, and location independence. You’ve already seen my radical transparency protocol, so I won’t elaborate too much on that. Basically, everything I can see, I can publish after checking it here with everyone, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, I don’t have any access to state secrets. Conversely, regardless of whether a policy ends up being decided to go forward or not, the context before the why, that position, is published. You know, not just the what and how." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By voluntary association, I mean that I don’t give command nor do I take command. That’s where I exist, kind of as a midpoint between the administration and the civil society. Nobody can be forced to say or do anything against my will. Conversely, I will not act in a hierarchical way with the career public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s kind of this anarchist part, but really, it is just a form of, I would say, consolidative or suggestive for a group of power, or peer-to-peer power, or new power -- that’s a new one now -- or instead of a hierarchical command structure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third thing, which I consider the most important, is location independence. It means that wherever I am, I am working in my capacity as Digital Minister. My office is every Wednesday. This is my office in Social Innovation Lab, Taipei. I don’t have to work in an administration building." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, everybody can just come and talk to me, including rough sleepers, social workers, and anyone individually, as long as they agree to have the transcript published online. I tour, also, around Taiwan to make sure that it is not people who can travel to Taipei." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I actually travel to them, and that’s Tuesday, every other Tuesday. There are 12 different ministries involved in the policymaking of Social Innovation Taiwan seen through my eyes. How is it like in other, like rural, indigenous, and so on places. They all gather here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re from very different ministries as they see through cases like me as a kind of personal public investigative reporting kind of thing. It is bidirectional." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any place where the people in the administration have a policy but it doesn’t turn out to be like exactly they imagined in the local areas, they can speak and the people in Taipei responsible will answer. It is like a parliamentary inquiry except with real local people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because 12 ministries are there, everyone can hear the answers and learn this is to be interpreted or reinterpreted like this. The individual team is formed without me having a separate ministry or a silo. This is part of this silo effect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, I can travel around Asia Pacific or indeed the world to meet people who encounter social injustice or environmental issues and again tell them how I can help to act as a channel. All this is because of location independence, and the fact that my whole working space is an online work space system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone that has Internet can check in and see whatever my team and other people are working about. This is, again, because of location. The idea is what we call working out loud so that people are not afraid of letting people unrelated to the project know what they are working on. That’s the three principles." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "That’s very, very innovative. It’s completely different from anything else that we’ve heard or experienced. It’s exciting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is how the free software community and the Internet society has always run their decisions. All the three, you can find it in the, for example, the Debian, that’s a Linux distribution, the predecessor of Ubuntu Linus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can find all these principles in the Debian constitution and also, of course, the IETF. I’m basically bringing a tradition that’s almost 40 years old by now, but running it in a different operating system within the government systems." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "A question for my own, because what you’re bringing is these really fundamental principles of open Internet. How has that been taken from the government side, which can be a bit more traditional and classic?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They found that, because I don’t give command. I don’t suddenly go to the Ministry of Defense and say, \"You have to start doing things my way.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s partly because I started helping the cabinet, the career public service, at the end of 2014 Occupy. I literally talked to all the rank 12 officials in Taiwan, of which there is exactly 300 people, over three terms, three lectures over a month or so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The administration at the time make sure that they all learned about this new way of policymaking. They generally find it complementary, but not reinforcing, of their hierarchical power. There’s an important difference." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I started a year or so, working with people supporting the Occupy, and also mediating for the Occupy, to bring them into the National Civil Service Academy. Together we trained, I think, 1,000 or so civil service people into methodology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was all before I become the digital minister. There’s a certain level of trust of my predictableness, of the internal coherence of this, of the fact that everybody in the working level also know, instead of just people in the parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think they now generally perceive this methodology as first, saving time for the junior public service, because they only have to explain once. They don’t have to take 40 different phone calls from different representatives or media, because in the flow, the work is just published online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The discussion is more in-depth this way, so it saves their time overall, which is why they agreed to have the 1,300 ministerial projects all published online, including quarterly report, the use of budget, which procurement or research they have done, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They become social objects around which the people have a real discussion about. It’s a time-saver for everybody involved. The second thing is that I’m a risk absorber. The career public service usually gets the blame if things go wrong." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If things go right, it’s always the ministry’s credit. This way of radical transparency is shifting the power, because if things go wrong, this is experimental. It’s all my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m the chief risk absorber. The thing is, because I give no command, plus there is radical transparency at a drafting level, so that when things go right, the journalism, the people generally know who is the innovative career public servant who proposed it in the first place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I make sure to feature them in my slides and so on. The credit gets spread more evenly this way. That’s it. Usually, they just bring to me cross-ministerial issues that needs resolution and engagement with the public, but I don’t force them to." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "You say they bring to you cross-ministerial issues. When you are traveling and speaking to people on the ground, are there any things that you bring in and start to present to them about requiring a policy?" }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "I know it would definitely help to shape existing policies. Does it also generate new policies?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, that, in fact, we do. There is no clear distinction between changing existing policy and generating new policy. After all, the method we’re working on, this whole AI-powered conversation thing, is predicated on the focused conversation method." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This tour is really more about fact finding, people sharing their living experience, but in a group setting, so it can be cross-validated by their peers. Instead of just an anonymous letter to the president, we can have a more ethnographic data or detail about what, inside the context of the local habitation, this issue occurs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Case in example, for example, there is an e-petition at the time where people in Hengchun, south north of Taiwan petitioned for the Ministry of Interior to station some helicopters to serve as ambulance cars, essentially, because their nearest hospital 90 minutes drive away." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The underlying problem of this is a distrust with the local clinicians and the local equipment, and a shortage of talented nurses and doctors who want to be in that area. Just by touring to that place, and bringing all the ministries available related to this with us, and in a live stream fashion, we get a lot of very significant input from people who were in Hengchun." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe they were stationed in Hengchun. Maybe they have some local ties in it, and so on, but they can also contribute meaningfully. After a while, it became really clear that we should just expand the medical facility there, and if needed, fly doctors to operate instead of flying patients out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, work on international FHIR, F-H-I-R, exchange formats for health, so that when there is a send to medical center situation, everybody is on the same page, so that the local clinicians can still act as a bridge, instead of just being taken out of the picture, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That results in new policy, because we allocated quite a few budget to essentially build a new large hospital there, which is initially not part of their conditions. It’s far from clear from the initial costs what the usual course or resolution will be, because of the collective fact finding process. It sometimes results in new policies." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "After the fact finding mission, is there an ideation phase, where you start to think about the solution?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. These are the facts. There’s a phase for feelings. After objective, a period is definitely reflective, and then ideation. The ideation only occurs after everybody’s feelings is checked on table." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this methodology is what sets this apart from many other consultative approaches because in other consultative approaches, although facilities usually have time for comparisons or whatever, it is generally seen as a time limit so that they have to steer it eventually back to the course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we say we allocate three weeks, four weeks just for people to check their feelings about say autonomous driving, or whatever, and see what everybody else’s positions or feelings are, and in an environment where you cannot reply, or choke other people, you cannot dissuade other people, there you can just post new sentiments for other people to resonate with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We always see this result where people agree to disagree. A few key issues. That has been far more time on refining the consensus. This is very different if you have to rush to a decision, or if you design a space so that the people control each other in a safe space, and with a set timeframe just for checking people’s feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We always get these powerful resonating feelings which we then use as agenda for the participation of the livestreaming, or just to have a good meeting. That would be the ideation part using this I think technology." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Would you say this is one of the key enablers of effective process for getting people involved?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. To give feeling its time and place. Yes. I will say so." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "I think what was very interesting also is the fact that you said to create a safe space for everyone to input without enabling, or allowing anyone to discredit or offend anyone else which I think is really important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Troll control.\"" }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Yes. Exactly. We’ve done a few interviews with people across different governments, and we’ve started to have a think about...Are there any policy areas where citizen engagement may, or may not be as effective, or as appropriate? Do you think there are any policy areas where you think citizen engagement should not be used?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Under this methodology, of course, if people cannot agree on facts, then this whole process cannot even start. That happens for example in futuristic scenarios like if people want to talk about, I don’t know, distributed federated identities using zero knowledge proofs distributor ledgers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is something that people don’t have a intuitive grasp of unless you’re trained in mathematics, and cryptography. Even if you are, you may not be trained in philosophical, and dependent use of human rights." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It requires very cross discipline conversation in order to even start the sense making. That’s not very effective for consultations if we just put up things like that without a lift end experience that’s shared by all participants involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, we are working on a lot of empathy building projects. For example, using virtual augmented reality to just situate people in a possible future, and have some living experience of the possible future. With that needs strong scientific research." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like it has to be hard Sci-Fi, and then have a conversation within that virtual environment. That’s one possible solution for this kind of two aspect thing. The other thing is that if the concern’s a local situation that requires almost an anthropological understanding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the transitional justice process for our 16 indigenous nations. Unless you have a cultural upbringing as that indigenous nation, all those are just going to be long words that cannot meaningfully inform the discussion. We need to even build cultural interpretative services, if you know what I mean, to even start a discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the cultural context differed too much in the past. The first case, I thought, is too far in the future. If it diverged too far in the past already, then that also needs a process of collective empathy-building before even we start talking about facts, because facts have very different meanings to different cultures." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "How do you go about doing that? How do you go about building the bridges between different cultural interpretations and getting people at the same level?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is of course ongoing process, but usually this requires people to essentially live together, to co-experience for a sufficiently long time before we can even start to have any discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For some of our e-petition cases, we did...For example, there was one about a really remote island in PengHu, in Pescadores, about the fishing people’s need to fish and also the Marine National Park’s need to ban fishing, and just exactly what fishing means to them culturally is different." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You cannot just use statistics or use any mathematical model to talk about sustainable fishing or whatever, because it’s part of their root. It’s part of their identity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we did was essentially a listening experience and also using 360 recording devices to make sure that people who visit later can also get that into the empathy space of the four or so hours of town hall and have the fishers people speak their mind about what they view about this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The space design, which I’ll spend a couple minutes talking about, is there’s essentially two places, a smaller room where the stakeholders are identified and use a ideation process inspired by the open policymaking here, which Fang-Jui can talk about in detail, and then a large town hall, which I am kind of the MC." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The town hall is showing a livestream of the expert discussion. I’m like a ESPN anchor..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...to just analyze, play-by-play, why they made this move, showed this slide. What does it even mean in the local context? If people want to protest, want to shout, want to have a lot of their emotive, nonverbal actions, they can do it to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The media, everything, of course was in the town hall. Because it was not reverse-livestreamed, so it doesn’t disrupt the real deliberative action here. Everybody, if they have a constructive suggestion, they can talk to me. They can use Slido, use their phone, and so on. That informs the ongoing agenda of this discussion." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "You can feed it back in there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, but only in a structured way, like how this relates to the mind map already on the table. People can suggest a play, but it has to be in the context of the mind map, which I can explain later." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The point here is that it turns those nonverbal actions into legitimate plays on the shared mind map, while using bandwidth restriction, essentially, lets other disruptive actions have their cathartic value but not disrupt the process." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "That’s very clever, in the sense you’re letting them express it, but it doesn’t disrupt any decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Everybody want to watch the movie, watch the play, anyway. People who complain doesn’t complain very long." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because people still want to listen to the play. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "How does the feeding back into the stakeholder discussion work? Are there certain points that are programmed?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Also, we just use this Slido mechanism, where people get to vote or upvote each other’s sentiments and questions. This is like a simpler, I guess, version of Polis, which I’ve shown earlier with the clustering and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All this does is that people can ask questions and like each other’s questions, but there’s no unlike. It’s anonymous so that people can speak out their mind without feeling oppressed by people with higher rank." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, whenever it’s non-duplicating constructive information, they’ll just highlight it, and just by the very fact of highlighting it within a context of a mind map adds this statement into that. It’s currently a little bit manual but we’re also working on automating this part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. That’s how we use Slido. The good thing again is there’s no Reply button, so that the best thing to do when you see questions you don’t agree with is not attack that position but rather bring your position for other people to upvote." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "That’s great. It’s very inclusive and building more cooperative alignment rather than..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. This projector is always projecting a second screen next to the livestream of the..." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "Was it difficult to get this implemented, by pitching and using Slido, and professionally using it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, personally, I just started using it. It’s freemium, so it doesn’t cost a cent. All the things we use for communication are all free as in free beer. Of course, the tool we use for internal collaboration is free as in free speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all free software internally and gratis software externally. All the local people who want to imitate this process, they can freely do so, without even their government’s blessing. It is also how we empower the civil society in the junction, with empowering the participants." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "Related to that is, because you’re using a lot of technology, does it require that most people are digitally literate, comfortable, and able to use platforms like this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all. We bring the tech to people. There is a lot of words for this kind of technology. I think the earliest is what’s called calm technology in Xerox PARC. Now, we call it, I don’t know, ambient computing, or assistive civic technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a lot of words to explain the very simple fact that basically, these are technologies that lets people focus on people more, instead of distract people from each other. They were just computing in the background." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever people say something, utter something, and so on, this role room is essentially a computer that captures the context of the conversation into something that can be visually immediately fed back to the people discussion, so that they know literally whether they are on the same page or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they are not on the same page, how to link the pages together, and so on. It doesn’t require them to have any training. They just bring their body to the space and start talking." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "That’s very interesting. Are there situations where you have to engage only experts or people in the know at a first level, and then go onto a wider community? Have you ever had to do something...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. We do have pre-meetings before each large engagement. Usually, it is through a rolling stakeholder survey thing, where people get to recommend other people. In the vTaiwan process, which is separate from the e-petition process..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the vTaiwan process, it is essential to have the major stakeholders agree to this timeline, especially the phrasing used as the discussion to be as neutral as possible and as inclusive as possible. For example, the UberX case, which was more widely reporting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We spent a month, literally, just to agree on the title of the discussion, which is, \"People without professional driver’s license carrying passengers and charging them for it.\" This is as neutral as possible, without mentioning any big words like sharing economy, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This process takes time. It needs time, mostly by experts sent by the stakeholder teams. It gives the process legitimacy if this is agreed to be the agenda, and the process that everybody pre-agreed on, regardless of what is the final result." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the important thing here is the government puts something on stake, saying, \"The crowdsourced feelings, we hold ourselves to account to use that, and only that, as the agenda in the stakeholder meeting.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not a referendum. It is not a coercive power. This is essentially distributed agenda setting power, and people are far more comfortable with that." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "To drive this forward, what do you think are the biggest enablers? What do you think have been the biggest enablers for you in driving this forward successfully?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the general awareness that the government doesn’t have to arbitrate. This is the old model of hierarchical power. You have people caring about the environment talking to environmental agency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have people who care about economic talk to the developmental agency. The administration is this rope that makes sure everything is tied together. They make arbitrary decisions from the outside, because this process is not transparent at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is like the old model. The organizational capability and the arbitration capability are both being superseded by peer-to-peer power, because people don’t need a minister or MP to organize. It used to be the case 20 years ago, but now, they don’t." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the right hashtag, tens of thousands of people just organize themselves. You see a lot of more players. Also, they were single issues that reflects a social or environmental, deep, underlying thing, what we call wicked problem, that requires coordinated action." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, they’ve already solved it by now. The curriculum situation is not good, but it’s a Nash equilibrium, usually. If you have new players organize themselves out of nowhere like this, you cannot just have a new agency or a new council set up for each emerging issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we are now saying, the main enabler is that, with these online platforms and also offline civil society partnership, we’re now saying we’re now a space that links together people with different positions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our main ask is not how to organize and how to arbitrate, but rather, given the different positions, can we find common value? When we find common value, which is reflected by feelings, when we find common value, are there any innovation that can drive a solution that works for everyone, that everyone can live with?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not like fine consensus. People don’t sign their names next to it. This is more like group collective consent, or rough consensus, as we say in the Internet Society. By stating this very clearly, and citing examples of co-creation before, people generally become aware that if they complain, all they get is a ticket to enter the kitchen and to cook together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then to co-create real artifacts, like someone will complain a tax filing system being very difficult to use, against the invitation, initially, from participation office, not even two days after they post it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We put ourself to account, using people’s online feedback in a livestream fashion, and then set up for workshops to essentially co-create the online tax filing experience. Which, I think, it’s 96 percent approval rating this year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even the other four percent of the people who have useful feedback in this time, but we did not get time to implement it, they still think this is part of their ongoing work. They’re still willing to be engaged." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we pay design consultancy sufficient amount of budget, first, we can get this also. Then we don’t have tens of thousands of people advocating for this and providing continuous new feedback." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "How do you do it in a more democratic way? When people raise their issues, how do you choose which ones to prioritize? That must be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many routes, but the most popular one is the e-petition route. In the Join platform, join.gov.tw, as I mentioned, we show the budgets. We show the regulatory pre-announcements 60 days before each regulation and bill draft is sent to the legislators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can petition to have any administration deputy or minister give an answer if they reach 5,000 people within 60 days. This is more like a \"We the people\" kind of way of doing things, so priority setting. Getting 5,000 people isn’t that easy, but because it’s electronic, people can campaign in the midst of online fashion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What this means for us is because hosting the 23 million people in Taiwan over 5 million is on this platform, so literally a quarter of the population. While not entirely representative, this is a significant audience that we can reach through this platform that we build ourselves instead of relying on social media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second things is that once something has 5,000 people, can we use a pro-and-con approach mechanism we took from Better Reykjavik. By the time they get 5,000 people, usually the main arguments has already been posted." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The fact-finding is collective. We have the what we call issue-based mapping that can start off with the information that’s present by this crowd source, 5,000 people, essentially crowd moderating each other. There’s important points to be brought into the issue-based mapping." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It shows it’s not just one or two lobbyists positioned. There are other people, people that are countering of this, like people conditioned to change Taiwan’s time zone to plus eight to plus nine. There’s a counter petition that says we should remain in the same time zone. We invite people from each petition through the same route..." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "Two, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and they agreed on the same common value, which is they want Taiwan’s uniqueness to be seen more prominently in the world. That’s something that people can agree on, and then start to ideate solutions instead of basing on changing time zone, which may make the international news for the day, and everybody forgets about it, because a country can have different time zones." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "That’s quite interesting that you get them to the same starting point, and then that becomes your foundation rather than the different positions that they start from." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these two pictures says it all." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "How do you reach a broader base of people, because it seems like often these engagement initiatives, the people who are eager to participate, are already the people who have interest in a particular topic, or have something to say, or want to raise concerns to the government." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "How do you also kind of ensure that you reach a larger base of people who, or especially the base of people who may be less engaged, and not kind of see...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not, strictly speaking consultative, because it’s initiated by the government. Everything I just talked about, the initial wave of mobilization came from the civil society, and sometimes from the social sector, with social enterprise and someone raising the issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They know that local domain knowledge in which they posed this discussion. Basically, they’re destroying the administration’s end, rather than the administration trying to draw people in, which is a very different model." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why I always said that our core value is for the government to trust the people and not the other way around. If we trust the people enough, if we learn their language, their story, their lived experience enough, some of them will trust back. We treasure each one of them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not good to asking people trust the government, without the government trusting back first, because that would be fascism. That’s like the definition of fascism. [laughs] We’re kind of the counter to that." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "It’s very interesting because we’ve been within kind of counter public...My boss and I have been kind of thinking about how to measure a city’s engagement. One of the core foundational principles of how we went about it is that trust is a two-way street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re all moving at the speed of trust." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "A lot of the discussion and the way it’s measured, globally, is citizen’s trust in government. Often the other part that is left out is how much they feel government trusts them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s healthy to have the civic sector distrust the government. It’s even healthy to promote that. The whole point is we amplify and connect those mobilizations, essentially turning social outreach into social production. Sometimes it leads to innovation if we discover something that nobody has thought of before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without initial outreach and movement, none of this would be possible. People would not want to devote time on this. The civil society organizers are crucial, and I’m merely facilitating it and amplifying it." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "You’re keeping an ear to the ground so you can pick up on the signals, and then amplify them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Also, this has been only possible because, according to the CIVICUS monitor, that if you click Asia, and fully open, and then you only see Taiwan as a...This picture is very powerful. [laughs] This is the relative freedom of association, assembly, and speech around the world, in this whole region." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not to say Nordic, or Australia, or in New Zealand is not doing better. They’re probably doing better, but in this region, really, Taiwan is the only place where you can, literally, have any opinion expressed and social movement done in a way that the government doesn’t like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The government has to join, rather than try to oppress or censor your work. Without this foundation, none of this process would be possible. This rests on the case that...That’s why for example the Reporters Without Borders chose Taiwan as their Asia HQ." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They know if they do a whistleblower report, or something, the civil society would be on their side. The government will not oppress them, because this civic freedom is a fundamental value for us." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "You mentioned just there that the government has to act, and it makes me wonder to what extent is that binding, to what extent do the government ministries feel they have to act, or how do they integrate that into the way they work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The e-participation, there’s an administrative regulation about it, about the methodologies, how do you contact the petitioner, how the conversation with the petitioner should be public by default, like readily transparent, and using a media form that people are agreed with. Sometimes they don’t want to reveal their true identity or true name." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of fine details in that regulation of e-participation. Also in other regulation participation of office and network of implementation, it also shows this is a capacity-building way of learning facilitative skills, learning translational communicative skills, and also the recording and re-presentating, instead of representative skills, including live stream, cinema graphic transcript, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If any public servants come to our consultative collaborative workshop, it counts as a capacity-building hour for them. This is all educational for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, because I don’t give commands, so any commandment they bring to the table, they bring it by their own volition. They have to act in the sense that they have to enter this deliberative space, and listen, and respond point-by-point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t compel them to act outside their professional capacity. This, again, is not like a referdendum." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "When you talk about the participation officer’s network, this, I’m guessing, is one of the enablers of citizen engagement?" }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "That you have a structure in place that kind of encourages it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. People dedicated to cross-ministerial, interagency, and also public engagement. There are three directions that a PO has to work." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "I’m guessing there’s a lot of exchange of ideas and information across this network as well. It’s not siloed within your ministry or anything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, and because the PO is like a fractal, it’s recursive. I’m in administration, so I talk with the ministerial POs, but the in the larger ministries, for example Agriculture, Health and Welfare, and certainly Finance and so on, they have their set level, agency-level POs as well. They can also have their lower-level POs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each functional agency can have this branch-like structure. When they join working, open, regularly transparent workflow, they’re suddenly reporting directly to the deputy minister. That’s also part of the regulation that we did." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is kind of virtual across silo network that engage career public servants in their facilitative power without threatening them. Again, this is not reinforcing the hierarchical power either." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "This network, their core objective is, essentially, to engage citizens in different policy areas that have run into that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, the capacity building within their own agencies." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "Do they work with you on...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we meet every month, and decide what one or two topics this month we’re going to collectively work on. We also vote, internally." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "This network, would they do projects that are, say, independent of your team? If they have specific issues or they..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...went off and do that. If they need cross-ministerial support, of course, they surface it on the monthly meeting. We are also now seeing larger ministries PO just engaging directly with people, because it’s a single ministry issue. They don’t have to come to the official minister." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "That’s very interesting. Do you have any sort of approaches that you use to evaluate each of these initiatives?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Based on the four core values of open government, which is basically how clear the information is presented, how white is the space and time for people’s input, how easy is it for people to find out what happened to their input, and also how facilitative are we of populations of different backgrounds to join." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are for core values of open government in Taiwan. I think if we don’t measure, especially these two, it very quickly becomes a, what we call, open washing, meaning that it’s for a selected number of people’s friends and circle, and everything is online, but nobody knows what happens to their inputs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You see that all the time in other places on the web. We really need to evaluate the whole, we call it, the policymaking account or account trail, essentially, of the policymaking process. Fang-Jui is designing future metrics to generate these measurements as the policymaking accounts gets extended over time on one particular policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve currently done these by hand, by people in PDIS who curate the process. This is not done in a very systematic fashion. We do it for larger cases that we would kind of keep track of ourselves. We might as well view the accounts and share it with everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next moment, I think, is key to have the POs also understand the importance of these interflow measurements that doesn’t require them to work over, over-hard because it’s all measured across the different facilitative systems. It’s just we capture these key metrics as time goes by." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not meant to compare or to measure, because every case is different, qualitatively speaking. It is useful feedback to let us know maybe this case is good on participation but it’s not conclusive enough or..." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "That’s quite interesting because you say that each case is quite different as it is. How would you define the kind of benchmarks, for want of a better word, or what are your parameters of success for each and how do you define that? How do you see..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think in the end it is about citizen confidence. It’s like consumer confidence. [laughs] There’s a index for consumer confidence. If there’s one for how people feel, even though maybe at end, they don’t get what they want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan’s time zone has not changed, certainly, [laughs] but they feel confident that if they can have a factual point-by-point response from each ministry about the impact of daylight savings time on energy, on tourism, on environment, on everything, then they feel this accountability means that the government trusts people completely to not abuse these numbers and evidences." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We even can co-create the basic facts that we can agree on. If that increases the confidence, not in the government institution, but rather in this process of collective fact-finding, then I think that is the key measurement that we need to measure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I need to run, and you all can..." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "Yes, you probably... [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...Fang-Jui can fill in all the details for you. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you for the great questions." }, { "speaker": "Jinan Younis", "speech": "[laughs] Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Priya Menon", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Hello?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Hi, Audrey" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "How are you doing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pretty good. Can you hear me just...?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "How are you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pretty good." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I’m in a Starbucks, actually. That’s why the Internet is not very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I want to just let you know that there is now a possibility for me to leave New York City a day later, the night of 23rd. I don’t whether you still have any time slot that day, but there is now a possibility." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I’m arriving on the 22nd in the evening. On the 23rd, I have a dinner in the evening, but I can do breakfast, if that’s OK with you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds awesome. I will let my colleagues know." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I can do breakfast. OK, great. That’ll be fantastic. That’d be wonderful. I’ll see you on the 23rd?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is just a possibility because they have to change the airline tickets. We’re now just collecting the possible meetings on that day to justify the one extra day of stay." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Breakfast would work for you, right?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I can understand. Do you have time now so I can...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I do have time now, so we can still chat." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Just in case. Basically, I’ve been doing a lot of work in Taipei and Taiwan with the Shin Kong Life Foundation. Two days ago, I was reading a google alert on Taiwan and something just popped up on my email saying that there’s a Taiwanese delegation going to the UN." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the UNGA. That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I said, \"I need to talk to them.\" Then I spoke to the Shin Kong Life Foundation in Taiwan. I said, \"I don’t know if these guys know what we’ve been doing with you.\" They said, \"Oh, my god. Please, we will do everything so you can to meet them.\" I said, \"I’m going to try.\"" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Just a very quick background. I run a tech company in the UK, but recently, I founded an organization called iamtheCODE." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I’ve read all the online materials. You can assume that I’ve read all that." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "[laughs] You know? OK. Then basically, what we’re trying to do in Taiwan is, this Shin Kong Life Foundation, they’ve been absolutely great. I was there for five days. They organized so many meetings." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I meet the people in government. They were excited. They really welcome me very, very nicely. I told them i will come back to Taiwan. Two things we discussed. They wanted us to come back in Taipei to meet other partners. Then the second thing they wanted us to do is to help them with our curriculum and computers." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "We have a very nice content. We have a very nice curriculum around the SDGs, over 1,200 lesson plans, totally based on the SDGs challenges, tracks, and all of that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "What we wanted to do, really, was to get some funding to develop this further with made in Taiwan products. The Shin Kong Life Foundation, they connected us with a lady there who has got a foundation." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "She’s very interested in helping iamtheCODE. We were advise to meet with you. Our advisor said: \"Maybe when you speak to the delegation, you can talk to them about how you can develop the curriculum even further with the Taiwanese backup.\"" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I wanted to meet you just to really give you some ideas of how we can work together. We have a very nice plan to...We’re going to be the first organization working with you to bring this into Taiwan. The hackathon was amazing." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "We had some young people, some old people. They loved it for two days, but unfortunately, we didn’t have enough time. Now, everybody wants us to come back. I think this will be very, very good for made in Taiwan, and really focus on the SDGs. I wanted to meet you for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. Before I served in the cabinet as the digital minister two years ago, I am in the K to 12 curriculum development committee. We have a new K to 12 curriculum that’s going to roll out next year, with computational thinking, design thinking, media literacy, critical thinking, and so on as the root of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll be very happy to talk over that over breakfast, because I think this is totally in line with the social innovation plan that I’m heading at the moment. We have a four-year, about $300 million USD plan in Taiwan to do basically three things:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, using SDG as the common index for all the social innovations that’s happening in Taiwan, so that can help. As you said, made in Taiwan. The second thing is then to enlist the university social responsibility programs, the USR programs, as well as the K to 12 new curriculum to make SDG as part of the education curriculum in a very deep way." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "That’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Computational thinking, democratization of AI, and so on. The third thing is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is now part of the plan, which is why I’m the delegate this year, as opposed to last year. We’ll make sure that our Ministry of Foreign Affairs people will be there as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re shifting our foreign assistance policies from funding specific parties, people, or whatever to funding the governance, the digital opportunity to a system, rather than particular factions." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Wow. That’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this very much will align to your mission." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "It’s so great. It’s so fantastic. The other thing also we do, you just touched on it, is the pre-21 framework, the 21st century learning skills. We align this with the SDGs now. It’s really fantastic. Also, one of the things we can also look into, I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "African countries, they really like Taiwan, but it’s a bit of a deep dive. I think content, let’s say we find a way of working together. This content could be spread out across Africa, in the Middle East, and in many, many countries. The reach is massive." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "We just partnered with the Duke of York Organisation. We’ve been working with him to develop this amazing platform called idea.org.uk. It is a badge system. It’s very easy to translate in Taiwanese as well. It’s free content. We are their partner and can use the content with you, you can have your own badge, it’s very easy for me to talk to them on your behalf. The content is beautiful. We have a blockchain badge so a young girl or a young boy sitting down in Taipei, in Senegal, or in Brazil can learn about blockchain in about two weeks." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "They can even build their own tech solutions. It’s all free. All the content is free. All they need is a little funding to run the activities physically, but also to give this to people. I think, like you said, it’s very timely." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I’m happy to make the connection with them. When you come in London, you can even have Skype with the lady at the Palace. They’re amazing. It’s really great. They’re giving this content to all the commonwealth countries. I don’t know if you know, there are 52." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "It’s all free, and so now, we are using this content in our hackathons, boot camps, workshops, breakfasts for businesses, making sure businesses are aligned with the SDGs, and to educate them about them." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Also, give them some ideas of how to implement them in their companies. It’s really fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just as a clarifying question, the curriculum about SDG you talked about, is this part of the I Am the Code, or it is separate?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Yes. It’s part of the I Am the Code. What happened is, many organizations didn’t have any curriculum, tracks, or challenges. We then designed our own. We’ve been trying to get funding for this for a very long time to actually put it into a very CRM system, a very nice, downloadable place." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Actually, our idea was to put it on the Raspberry Pi, because we have our own computer kit, which is like a DIY kit where children can put together and learn how to code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know, yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many of them participated in the One Laptop Per Child program, way back when. The collaborative spreadsheet in the one OLPC XO, called SocialCalc, I personally contributed. We were very in line with the work that you’re doing." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "The One Laptop Per Child hasn’t been popular enough. It’s actually very dead now in many, many countries. What we did is we learned from the mistakes of all these organization in the past. When they came to Africa and many marginalized communities..." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Our primary targets are the marginalized community. It’s people who don’t have access. The reason why they failed is because they didn’t have any curriculum like we did." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "They also didn’t have any content. It was just like, \"OK, let’s give an African child a laptop.\" It was like a press stunt for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Then they wasted a lot of money in government, because the African government, you guys are so advanced compared to us. They didn’t understand that actually, you need to have a very clear curriculum of content, the teachers, and the community, so they failed." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Then I went to many African countries. I saw the laptop being piled up in places. I was so sad. Then I came back home. I said, \"OK, I’m going to do something.\" I didn’t go to school. I personally had to teach myself how to code seven languages myself." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Then I decided to use the skills, the way I learned. I designed my own learning. Then decided that we’re going to do something very cheap, very simple for everybody around the world. You can learn how to code from Nepal to Afghanistan very easily." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "The next phase for me right now is to, because I’ve been working on the UN issues for over 15 years now. MDGs. I supported Kofi Annan for 3 years on climate change and adaptation. I also supported the SDGs task force and focused on engagement for marginalized communities." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I didn’t want the SDGs to be just like a high level thing at the UN. How do we get young girls from Senegal, from Taipei, from all around the world, to participate in the conversation advancing the SDGs?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Taiwan was in my mind and I was honoured to be invited by the Shin Kong Life Foundation. They sponsor the hackathon and paid for my travel to come. They were really impressed. They showed all the work to their board. They were all happy." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "It will be made in Taiwan, but at the same time, being used all around the world. We will be the first team to do this. I wanted to give that opportunity to Taiwan. Mrs. Wu, she’s a very nice lady. She’s been pushing and helping us to make sure this is made in Taiwan. She likes Taiwan. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "\"We have to do it in Taiwan. We have to do it in Taiwan.\" She’s pushing for this to happen in Taiwan. I’m happy to do that there as well. That’s where we are right now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you for the context and background. I think we’re very, very much aligned in the work that we’re doing. Concretely speaking, I have a column in the Business Weekly magazine in Taiwan where we use to raise awareness on various social innovations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have previously raised awareness on another open coding platform, the MIT Media Lab self-driving tricycles. They are self-driving cars, but actually, tricycles are very safe. We also did hackathons in the social innovation lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s various civic technologies, communities that we engage very deeply so that people can, because you’re a CIC, right?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Structured for social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah, a lab for innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I think this is quite an attractive project for Taiwanese engineers, both software and hardware engineers." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I agree. No, it’s fantastic. When I went to the National Institute of Technology, it was like my mind blew. I wanted to stay there so much. I was like, \"Oh, my god. This is the right place.\" I was so excited. I met lots of entrepreneurs working on 3D printing, they took my 3D image. It was cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My meeting, including face-to-face meetings, usually have a condition of what we call radical transparency, meaning that we will make a transcript of our conversation. You can edit it for 10 days afterwards, after which we publish it to the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody, after they google for your name or whatever, it will show up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this works for you as well as it works for me, because we both want to get the messages out?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Yes. Thank you for your time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you for your time as well." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "I’ll see you on the 23rd. I will speak to your team, and we organize it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will let you know. How early can you begin the conversation, like 8:00, 8:30?" }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah, I’m easy. I usually go running in the morning. It’s no problem for me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not a problem for you." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Whatever’s better for you. No worries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will let me team know, and I will get back to you as soon as possible." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cheers." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Thank you, Audrey. Bye-bye." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Bye-bye." }, { "speaker": "Marieme Jamme", "speech": "Thank you, bye-bye." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "We are very privileged to have here today our distinguished guest for the panel, Minister Audrey Tang, Digital Minister for Taiwan, and Professor Jeannette Wing, the Avanessians Director of the Data Sciences Institute and a Professor of computer science at Columbia University." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Audrey is a free software programmer, and has been described as one of the 10 greats of Taiwanese computing in the private sector..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was over 20 years ago. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "...by the age of 19, Audrey had held various positions in software companies, and she had worked in Silicon Valley as an entrepreneur. Before joining the Taiwanese cabinet two years ago, she served on the National Development Council’s open data committee and on the K-12 curriculum committee, which introduced media literacy and computational thinking in the curriculum for the first time. She’s also led the country’s first e-Rulemaking project." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Professor Wing has served as Corporate Vice President of Microsoft Research and has overseen a global network of research labs. Jeannette’s seminal essay, titled \"Computational Thinking\" was published a decade ago and is credited with helping to establish the centrality of computer science to problem-solving in fields where previously, it is not being embraced." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "We’re really delighted to have you here with us today. Before we begin, I’d like to mention that we’ll be using Slido for audience interaction with the panelists. If you have your smartphones and/or your laptops, you can go to slido.com and enter the event code #920. Nine, two, zero." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "You’ll be able to join the conversation and post questions to the panelists. During the course of the panel, if you have questions that you’d like for the panelists to address, please go ahead and post them and you’ll see what others have posted." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "You’ll be able to upvote the questions that you want the speakers to address first, so we can address the burning questions first that are supported by majority of people. Depending on the time, we’ll address the remaining ones." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "I’ll also take this opportunity to thank the co-sponsors for this event, the MPA in Development Practice program and the Taiwan Focus for their kind cooperation and support in bringing this event together. I’d especially like to thank the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in New York." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "We are privileged to have here today Ambassador Lily Hsu of TECO and distinguished congresswomen from Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "To kick off the panel, can I first invite our guest to join us here. Minister Tang and Professor Wing, we are so happy to have you here. Can I just ask to ask that you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, your work, your interest in the subject?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, I’m Audrey Tang, Digital Minister @ Taiwan. My background is pretty transparent. The idea, very simply put, is that I’ve been working with the Internet society on what we call collaborative governance for many decades now. I was there when the free software movement forked into open-source movement and merged back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This whole idea when we occupied the parliament in 2014 in Taiwan was the idea that since the people really want to have more input, more than two bits every four years, into the governance process, we need to build social innovation and civic technology to find more meaningful participation and to building rough consensus in the way that Internet society uses, rather than polarizing people. Basically tech for democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the cabinet two years ago, I don’t have a contract. I have a compact, like a covenant, with the government in Taiwan. I work with the Taiwan government, but not for the Taiwan government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The three conditions, very simply put, are voluntary association -- I don’t give or take command, radical transparency -- I publish all the meetings I chair online and the full transcript, and location independence. I’m happy to elaborate on these ideas more in the questions to come." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Hi, I’m Jeannette Wing. I’m the Avanessians Director of the Data Science Institute at Columbia and also a professor of computer science. Before I joined Columbia last year, I was a corporate vice president at Microsoft Research and I ran all the basic research labs worldwide for Microsoft." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Before that I was at Carnegie Mellon University for decades as a professor and department head. I also served at the National Science Foundation for three years as the assistant director for computer and information science and engineering." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "In that role, I oversaw most of the academic research in computer science for the country. I set the strategic directions and gave money out. People were very happy. It was a good position to be in when you’re giving money out." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Right now, I run the Data Science Institute. One of the things that I wanted to promote for Columbia University and for data science more generally is what I call Data for Good." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "By Data for Good, I mean using data to tackle societal grand challenges such as the UN sustainable development goals, but also to use data in a responsible manner, to use data considering privacy and ethical concerns, which I think everyone understands today is really in our face when you pick up the front page of \"The New York Times\" and you’re meeting horror stories all the time." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think it’s very important that we train data scientists from day one to understand the ethics of using data, collecting data, analyzing data, and disseminate the results." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Let me start off the discussion and please feel free to post your questions at any time starting now. Minister Tang and Professor Wing, I’m thinking we’re living in a time of unprecedented technological change in terms of phase, scope, and depth." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Advances in artificial intelligence and robotics, to name just a few, have opened possibilities to improve quality of life for people everywhere. It is possible to achieve the 2030 Sustainable Development Goals if the technology is implemented properly." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "The frontier technologies hold promise to end poverty for good. They enable sustainable patterns for growth and achieve peace and prosperity. I want to ask, how can technology be redirected towards inclusive and sustainable outcomes?" }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "What are the promises of technology for development? Broadly, what are some of the technology trends that you’ve seen in your careers or new areas that you’re seeing now that could play an increasingly greater role in our sustainable development?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would just want to highlight the connection between the technology for good, as Professor mentioned, and Sustainable Development Goals. There are a few targets always in the 17th SDG, teaching specifically talking about the role of science, technology, and data in terms of Sustainable Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is why in this slide, I chose this icon, which is the 17th SDG for this conversation. Basically, target 17.18 talks about enhancing availability of reliable data because the whole idea of the Sustainable Development Goals is that one should make progress not just in the economic or the social or environmental areas, but actually leave no concerns behind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For this kind of holistic worldview, reliable data is very important because otherwise, people are not held accountable for the negative externalities, but they’re rewarded for the positive progress they make on any of these goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need to maintain our awareness that any action has a different spillover effect on every other goals as well. How exactly does those goals overlap? How does policies and other civil society and private sector actions actually impact these different goals and targets that becomes a evidence-based policymaking problem that only advance unethical use of data and make everybody see the whole picture at once?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "17.17 talks about encouraging effective partnership because when we talk about open data, many people think about open government data, but it is also citizen science. It is also data sharing from private sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is also an open algorithm, whereby private sector people run the same set of algorithms and in order to compare and contrast in a way that doesn’t infringe privacy and things like that. 17.17 talks about this kind of partnership." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, 17.6 talks about knowledge sharing in cooperation so that people can have access to innovation whenever their environment is suitable for some kind of innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The government and the other sectors has the responsibility to distribute the innovations and amplify their messages so that people in very similar situations can see oh, Taiwan fixed their air pollution quality problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We solved it with cross-sectoral data integration and high-speed computing, democratize to all the high school students and so on. That can scale. That can be extrapolated and exploited to anyplace that is suffering from similar social situations or injustices, and these innovations can spread, using the 17.6 as its main target." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Let me speak a little bit about the technology itself and the capability of the technology already in place. Probably the most exciting technology that all of you heard about and read about is AI and some of the machine learning algorithms that are producing models that can be used for prediction and classification. Let me be a little more specific." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I would say just even five years ago, we were not nearly as far along as we are today in recognizing objects in an image or recognizing objects in a video. Currently the machine learning techniques that we use are...One of the most popular techniques is called deep learning." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "These deep learning techniques are building models such that, as you know, face recognition is basically a solved problem. Object recognition is to the point where all the self-driving cars have cameras that are serving as the vision system of these cars." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "The whole point is that for a self-driving car, these vision systems can see the objects in front of the car. It can detect whether a pedestrian is running across the street. It can detect whether there’s a stop sign coming up." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "All of this object detection, object recognition is done through these AI machine learning algorithms. It’s astounding to me the success that these techniques have had in literally just the past five years." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Those are the kinds of techniques. These techniques are serving multiple purposes outside of self-driving cars. For instance, if you take the healthcare domain and imagine using these techniques to process images, medical images -- for instance, X-rays, mammograms, images that are taken to detect whether you have cancer or not -- all of a sudden, the clinician, the radiologist has a computational agent to help him or her do prediction, do diagnosis." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "This is happening already. There are startups around the world that are bringing in these techniques to help hospitals, to help radiologists, do this kind of image processing. That’s in healthcare and that’s also just about images. I could say something very similar about other kinds of media, whether it’s video or speech, text, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Another area of application, speaking to sustainability and the environment, is I just learned just yesterday, literally, when you think about a lot of the fishing vessels that are out there, one of the roles that these fishing vessels have is to count the number of fish around. Are we losing our fish population or whatnot?" }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "The way in which it used to be done is there’d be a human being standing there with a pencil and paper counting the fish, looking at the fish, probably scooping them up and doing some kind of statistical analysis to do an inference of how many fish are around." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Rather than do that, not only can we do better but we can do it in a more environmentally sound way by having cameras on the fishing boats that will just be always on, taking pictures of the sea, if you will, and doing a better, more reliable count." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "That’s just one example of medical, environmental applications of this technology that’s doing image processing. What I wanted to say is all these deep learning models are very data-hungry. The more data you feed these algorithms, presumably the better the classification, the better the prediction." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "It is about amassing large amounts of data in order to make these vision systems perform well. There is where the issues of accountability, bias, and so on may come to play." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "We have some audience questions coming in. Shall we go into talking about those? OK. The first question that everyone wants addressed first is, \"Most discussion of data for good is about curbing abuses of commercial tech, but what is an affirmative example of using data for policy design?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve already mentioned a little bit about the Civil IoT project. The website address is ci.taiwan.gov.tw. We have offered these cross-ministerial projects like ci.taiwan.gov.tw. We also have one for AI Taiwan, for Bio Taiwan, for Smart Taiwan, you name it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The CI Taiwan one is about basically citizen science and about people measuring the air quality using low-cost measurement devices basically on their balcony, also part of as a education tool and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan is kind of rare in Asia, where you can have thousands of people just doing citizen science like that without fear of censorship or retaliation from the government. In fact, the government, we’re like, \"When we can’t beat them, join them.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they set up those 2,000 points we commit ourselves to set up complementary points where the people’s sensor and things like that cannot reach you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they went to water quality we started doing water quality as well and manufacturing devices that can do sensor vision, like make most of the environmental data without impacting too much by the noise and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the really powerful message sent to the policymakers is that for the first time we have a aggregated data store of a very large variety and incoming sources and it’s all accountable. The snapshot is taken every now and then and stored into distributed ledger systems to make sure that we don’t change the numbers before election day or things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, it creates something of a neutral collaboration ground that people who are doing science, doing policy, and so on can see as a reusable data source. We also do a lot of collaboration around that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will also use another example where people can just donate their data, but this time their data on feelings. Back in 2015, when Uber first start operating without professional driver’s license cars, Uber X in Taiwan, the civic tech community, in partnership with the national government, set up this AI-powered conversation, where we asked people to donate their feelings -- to describe in a sentence or two what they feel about the practice of using unprofessionally licensed drivers and charging passengers for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very interestingly, because the dialog space was set up in a way that it was moderated by a non-human, in a fair way, people actually use this data to collect each other’s feelings and not because there’s no reply potentials as in Slido. People can just agree or disagree on each other’s sentiment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, using k-means clustering, principal component analysis can put a face of the crowd so that people can know what their people or your family feel about this particular issue. The good thing is that at the end of it, people agree to disagree on a few things, but they spend much more time on the thing that they have consensus with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That kind of proves to us, if this collection is voluntary and it is in a collaborative way and nobody can censor or prevent each other from speaking, at the end of it, after three weeks, there’s a very strong sense of consensus, which we then use to make the ridesharing laws, which is why Uber is now operating legally in Taiwan. You can call taxis using Uber and the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is also one of the early cases where we see, having a non-human moderating the discussion in an open-data and open-algorithm way is really good for policymaking." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "There’s a whole branch of data science that’s very interested in causal inference, which has of course been a study in economics and political science and social science for decades." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "With the advent of big data, lots of data, machine learning algorithms, and causal inference, now we have the possibility to start really using data to understand a lot of policy decisions that could be made or are being made." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "The typical examples are, how large should a classroom be? Should it be 20 students? Is 30 students too many? We can actually study in a counterfactual way what causality, what we have, depending on the size of the classroom. That’s just one small example." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "There are many, many cases right now where these machine learning algorithms are being used in our social society. One of the canonical examples right now is in the criminal justice system. Some of these decision-making algorithms are being used as black boxes to actually determine what sentence someone should get." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Now all of a sudden, these technologies are making important decisions about individuals and their future. People are quite interested in both the use of these technologies so that a particular policy can actually be applied uniformly and not subject to human opinion or bias." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "People are as concerned about the computer itself being fed with biased data. The model will be biased as well. This is really a hot topic of research right now in the data science, machine learning, and AI community." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "One really what I view as quite foresightful is later on this afternoon I’m actually going to be going to the New York City Accountable Decisions Systems Task Force meeting." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "This is what I think has shown great leadership by New York City to create this task force in recognition that the agencies in the city are using these black boxes to do prediction, to do decision-making, to do classification, and they are worried that decisions that are being made are potentially biased." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "How can we account for these decisions? New York City set up this task force. I think it’s the only one in the world, so that it shows leadership by the city to really address this very hard technical problem." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "The next question we have from the audience is, what is your number one worry for the next 10 years and for the next 50? Then a related question down the line is what is the next big thing or move in tech?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, I’d like to show you my office in Taipei City. This is the Social Innovation Lab in Taipei City at the heart of Taipei near the JianGuo Flower Market. I share this because this is a co-creation of thousands of people online and hundreds of people offline." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These were drawn by people with Down Syndrome and so on. It turns out they are excellent artists. I show this because my main worry is that people who innovate on different domains don’t talk to each other. This kind of co-creation are a safe place, a safe space, where people can share their latest experiments and have useful feedback from people who are very different from them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every Wednesday is my office hour day, from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. Anyone can come to talk to me about sleepers, social workers, anyone who has any concern about where innovation is heading in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have a personal worry, because I kind of channel everybody’s worries. [laughs] But I would worry if people stopped talking to me. I would worry if people stopped talking to one another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because this is the place where the MIT Media Lab, for example, worked with the local universities to drive those autonomous driving Persuasive Electric Vehicles, tricycles that are really kind of slow, so they have the same right of way as pedestrians." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We collect a lot of useful information, not just raw data, which is very important, but also qualitative data about how people interact with these new things and what their hopes and fears they have for them and also how people’s norm change when there are such things on the road, and also how people want these things to co-domesticate with ourselves to show their emotions, to show where their attention is, and things like that in a way that co-evolved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is a prime example of having social infrastructures that enables cross-discipline people to form new norms around AI and without which, if people stop talking to each other and just develop on their own, then I start to worry." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think depending on what hat I’m wearing I worry about different things. As a scientist in this country what I worry about is sufficient support for basic research in science and engineering to support the academic enterprise." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Partly that’s the worry that the federal government is not really speaking up to support science and engineering in general. Along those lines, a concern I have is that industry, because they own the data, they have a lot of data, they have these techniques, they have the computing. They can do all sorts of things that academia cannot easily do." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Industry to me in some areas of AI, data science, machine learning, computer science, is actually ahead of academia. There are two implications for that." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "One is that because the competition is so stiff right now in the industry, they do not have the time to take that step back and understand the scientific underpinnings of the successful applications of the technology." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Eventually, the technology will hit a wall. That’s usually when you can then turn to academia and say, \"Well, what’s next? Please help us move beyond this wall.\"" }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "What I worry is that because industry’s a bit ahead right now with this technology -- academia doesn’t even have the capability to be running the kinds of experiments, doing the kinds of projects that industry has -- we can be understanding, trying to understand the science." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Will we in academia be ready when industry hits that wall? That’s one worry I have. I think it’s not just a US worry." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "The other worry I have is...actually don’t know how to think about this and I would love to hear people’s opinion about this. There’s a lot of concern about AI and technology innovation and so on will increase the, I would say, income gap, if you will." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "If you talk about inequality or reversing inequality as a sustainable goal, then are we in the technology industry exacerbating the problem or actually can we help address that problem?" }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think it’s important for people like you and people who are interested in both technology and policy to really talk through those kinds of issues." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Just a small example of that issue is the concern and the fear that the public has in terms of will all of this AI -- robots and so on -- take over a lot of our jobs? The future of work is clearly interesting." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Now on the flip side, you asked what technologies are going to come out in 10 or 50 years. I think no one in my industry ever predicts the 50-year thing." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "[snaps fingers] My industry works like this, every 18 months there’s something new. We didn’t know about it 18 months before. 50 years, all I can say is maybe we will have a quantum computer." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I don’t know, but I can say that the cryptography community and the security community are certainly planning for that, trying to work on the mathematics to ensure that the kind of e-commerce that we’re so used to, the secure communication that we’re become so dependent on will continue to work." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I’ve talked about quantum computing, but another area that I think is quite intriguing to me is what I would call biological computing, building computers out of molecules, building computers out of natural, not-engineered systems, but actually natural systems." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "We already know how to put some molecules together to do some very simple functions. This clearly has a lot of implications in terms of synthetic drugs, in terms of personalized therapy and all sorts of positive consequences for healthcare." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "The next question that we have from the audience is directed for Minister Tang, but if you want, we can address that later and keep going with the flow of the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "The question is, \"As the first transgender minister in the world, what’s your message for LGBT students interested in serving the public sector?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have fun." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Optimize for fun. I think there’s this added concept of intersectionality. Having been through two puberty enables me to empathize with people’s lived-in experience, I believe, in a unique way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, it enables me to relate to people suffering from social injustice and bullying and so on, even though they may be of a different population or a different sort of identification than I personally am. I think this too corporate rather to say organizational empathy ability and this relatedness to vulnerability combined that brings in to intersectional power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One can put into the words of the privileged or the organized or the scientifically-understood their feelings and subjective feelings of the oppressed that the one suffering from social injustice and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This translational or channel-like capability is essential if we’re going to talk about global roles, because people don’t have first-hand experience living in Africa or living in places where one of the SDGs are still suffering a lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can use our intersectional capability within ourselves to create art, to create interactional stimulations or whatever other forms that we think carries this kind of living experience and make it relevant to other people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it also goes back to computational thinking, because in the original definition, there is a way to think about issues in a way that’s effective to compute. I think the beauty of it is that \"effective\" doesn’t only mean linear or Turing-machine compatible. It also means it could mean quantum. It could mean biological." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could mean whatever data a computer have at their disposal, and the computer may as well be a human being. Just this plurality of computational paradigms and this plurality of possible ways to frame things as effective, I think, is enlightening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, this is the idea of intersectionality that I would like people who are LGBTQI+ to basically position ourselves in this kind of intersectional channels." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Let me interject because Minister Tang referred to computational thinking and picked up on the word \"effective,\" which is very keen on your part. I have always viewed a computer could be a human or a machine." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "In fact, computers of today are combinations of humans and machines. What is interesting about thinking about a computer as being a human or including humans is that we actually do not know the computational capability of humans." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "We know we can do some things pretty well. We can also still do, still do, some things better than machines. Of course, machines are catching up in certain tasks, but the Holy Grail of AI is what’s called general AI. We don’t know how to build one of those, so humans are still pretty smart, pretty capable computationally or otherwise. There’s a real research challenge." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Thank you. Going back to the topic of innovation and of course, sustainable development, the question from the audience is, \"What role can the government play in regulation of artificial intelligence?\"" }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "There was a related question down the thread, which can be a flip-side question, \"What role can social media and artificial intelligence play to improve democracy or overthrow dictatorships, and how significant is that role?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, social media and AI can also improve dictatorships and overthrow democracies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no linear or causal relationship between the technology and the people’s values using the technology. I think what’s most important is when a child learn to wield an instrument for the first time, they don’t know the morality behind it. It might as well be an AK-47 or whatever. You know what I mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What it means is that we need to create a social norm in which that such instruments are imagined in a way that is for the social good. When I learned programming when I was eight years old, I learned entirely from books." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I didn’t have a personal computer or indeed any access to a computer and draw on paper a keyboard and simulated computational thinking [laughs] without a computer." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, I think that is important, because then it shows that the computational activities in a human brain, it doesn’t require any computer. It requires someone to model logic as its notes and possibility of interaction as its melodies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When understood this way, then one will not be sold on the addictiveness of social media, which is in the business of selling addiction or other way that basically trades our invention or our cognitive resources into fueling these addictions or other psychological traps." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But can rather enable us to focus on places where, as Professor just said, we have not yet explored, like the human potential of human beings. I think education and then social norm around people’s initial contact with the technology, for example, as a bike that talks to you rather than something that takes their jobs away and things like that is essential." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the idea of sandboxes, of co-creation of regulatory experiments and so on are the policies we’re introducing in Taiwan. They’re not policies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re like meta-policies that enable people to experiment with the regulations and the law for a year, for example, like they want to run with this alternate version of a law for autonomous vehicles or for V-pack or for whatever for the entire society to know for them to be given a chance to prove to a society that this enables a better social environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it doesn’t work, it’s just a year, so it could be terminated. We’ll thank investors for paying the tuitions for everyone. If it works, then the regulators and legislators don’t have to work with something that we don’t have first-hand experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This motivational incentive for innovators to be with a first experience for the society that they deployed their first experiments in, that brings social solidarity, because everyone comes together and codetermine the norms and the future of this technology I think is essential if people are going to think about it in a way that enables the common good." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I like your answer about social norms, because as everyone understands, social norms continue to change over the years. We have to adapt. Technology has to adapt, and social norms have to adapt to technology." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I wanted to address the two questions. The first had to do with government regulation and AI. I think this is a conversation that’s being had right now. The IT companies in the beginning certainly were taking the stand that you didn’t want a government to regulate what they do." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "As the stories have played out, whether it’s hacking elections or the loss of privacy or surprises that the lay public are now encountering because they were unaware of how much data is being collected about them and how that data is being used, I think that the companies, their first strategic direction would be let us self-regulate." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think now partly because of all of what’s been happening in the public’s eye as well as external constraints like EU GDPR, these companies are recognizing that maybe we need to have a dialogue with the government agencies and understand best what makes sense to regulate, how should these regulations look? I think that’s just starting." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "That conversation is just starting and different companies are at different stages in that conversation. In terms of the question of...What was that second question?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "About democracy..." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "What role can..." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Oh, oh. Social media and democracy, social media and dictatorship." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I wanted to tell especially the SIPA crowd here, there’s a brand new faculty member here at SIPA. Her name is Tamar Mitts. How many of you have heard of her?" }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "She has done some phenomenal work looking at Twitter data to understand how people are influenced by terrorist organizations like ISIS. She’s looking to see, how is it that people get radicalized?" }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "She’s using social media to actually understand this very issue of why people start feeling pro or con towards their government or pro or con towards a particular philosophy. That is tip of the iceberg. There’s so much we could be doing with social media data." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Now, not a lot of that social media data is available to the public. The big company...Facebook has a lot more social media data than any of us will ever have." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "All these big companies have a lot of information about our preferences, our behavior, our tastes, our daily lives that is actually their asset." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Twitter data is publicly available. In some way it’s actually allowing us to study the society. But your question was more of how can social media...?" }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "...overthrow dictatorships, and how..." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "And how behaving in certain ways..." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think we’ve already seen evidence of Twitter and social media -- the Arab Spring and all these sorts of uprisings, if you will. That’s a new phenomenon, which is why the companies don’t want their stuff regulated." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Because it’s supposed to give everyone a voice. It’s supposed to be democratizing the world. That’s the conflict." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Thank you. The next question from the audience is, \"How do private and public sectors apply blockchain technologies to achieve the SDGs, and are there any examples in projects?\"" }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Another related question is, \"Can you give examples about open government with current technologies? Does it create a new form of democracy?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A little bit nitpicking, but I usually say distributed ledgers, or mutually distributed ledgers, rather than blockchains, but this is just being very pedantic. Feel free to continue saying blockchains." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason I say that, because there’s multiple ledgers that we use in Taiwan now, like the one I talk about in the civil IoT platform, which is IoTA. But it is an acyclic graph. It’s not really a chain, so I don’t know whether to call it blockchain or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It certainly is a mutually distributed ledger. Such ledger technologies are now routinely used not as cryptocurrencies but rather as just what they are, ledgers, to provide people with trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is, for example, around the time of the Nepal water issue, there’s a lot of people who donated towards to recover from the hurricane and the disaster and whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We observed that people generally trust a international charity better than a domestic partnering with another domestic charity because they don’t know of the accountability involved, which is why the Taiwan NPOs all invest a lot accountability mechanisms and self-regulation in order to earn people’s trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Such auditing mechanisms with KPMG or with any of the other auditors are kind of costly. It’s not so, so good for crowdfunding or the charities that are just set up for this event alone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The ITRI, the Taiwan’s technology institute, has a spin-off startup, a social enterprise, called Dodoker, D-O-D-O-K-E-R, that uses the Ethereum distributed ledger to essentially record alongside each donation, each transfer of money, each use of the spending for the humanitarian relief or for whatever -- there is a footprint on the Internet for Ethereum chain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea very simply put is it doesn’t rely on the crowdfunding site at all. Anyone can recreate this trail of accountability right from the chain itself without going through the central and maybe modified or tampered-with -- the Dodoker site." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is one thing that is already being increasingly used to improve the accountability of cross-sector international disaster relief." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many other...I have a bunch of friends working on the so-called \"Matter News,\" which is a way for people working on human rights to voice their concerns and have a distributed forum. I think the good thing about it, again, is because of this distributed ledger, if people censor or modify the message, that attempted censorship will actually be recorded." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They chose a pretty good mathematic foundation so that it’s very difficult to mount a attack for the whole network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For things like that that are just out there in the public knowledge, social objects for everybody to reflect about, I think there’s enormous potential in distributed ledger technologies." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I just want to say that I think we are agreeing so much today. I also prefer to say what blockchain is and call it for what it is, which is a distributed ledger with certain properties, like verifiability, tamper-proof auditability, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think it’s those properties of that technology...and by the way, that technology’s been around since the ’80s, so it’s not new." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Only the branding of it." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think also the combination of distributed consensus protocols, which were invented in the ’80s, plus the cryptographic protocols, is really what’s bringing distributed ledgers these properties that I was just mentioning and that Minister Tang was saying is used." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "As you know, Columbia University just entered a partnership with IBM on blockchain and data transparency. IBM’s interest in blockchain, besides that they have a business on that, is actually to light up a lot of different applications using distributed ledger technology with those different properties I mentioned." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "The kind of application area they are particularly interested in and they already see a lot of interest from their customers is in supply chain. If you think about, let’s say, building a Boeing 787 or whatever it is." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "There are a lot of parts that go into that and you want to account for every single step in that supply chain to make sure that everything by the end will go in the airplane goes right." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Or a supply chain in terms of, say, in their case they have a wonderful example of the shipping industry, where you’re loading some goods at one port and the ship is going around the world and you’re unloading them at some other port. You want to make sure that all the goods arrive and so on." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Anytime when there’s a fairly complicated process with lots of different parties that are supposed to coordinate, communicate, and collaborate, but you want a verifiable ledger and you don’t want a central authority so everyone writes into some SQL database at the same time, that’s where that kind of blockchain technology can be very useful." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "The next couple of questions are related so I’ll ask them together. The first question is, \"Should governments develop and train algorithms using citizen-generated data?\" An extension of that question is, \"How would federal systems then respect the fundamentals and laws of data security and privacy?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very carefully. [laughs] The whole notion of data as asset is something that we in the policymaking process is trying to counterbalance. I mean, GDPR works somewhat toward this goal of defining data as the beginning of a relationship, rather than an asset." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this relational rather than transactional view is what we really need to take, because GDPR basically says if a data operator controls some data you provide to them for one particular purpose, then if they want to use it for some other purpose and so on, they have to initiate a conversation with you about the new purpose because you did not provide it under that context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a whole notion of portability, explainability, and so on because of that ongoing relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there is no ongoing relationship, none of these words would matter, because then it would just be a shadow of your profile captured years ago, basically going back to a fossilized society, because there’s no way to update it in a way that accurately reflects then your purpose being defined." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, what does \"purpose\" actually mean? Professor Wing made a lot of semantic contributions on this field, and that is also a ongoing dialogue that we have to make across sectors, on what \"purpose\" actually means." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I say this very carefully, because for each and every scenario that involves the government use of people’s data in Taiwan, we have this true multi-stakeholder dialogue that brings everybody’s voices in, that lets people generally become aware of what exactly is going on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is being tested on some of the highest-profile data, like the universal healthcare data and so on, so that when people feel generally uncomfortable with the kind of privacy guarantees and in a way that in a plain language that everybody can understand will we actually move forward." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan there’s no such thing as the government unilaterally moving forward in the name of progress or effectiveness in one domain, sacrificing everybody else, because then maybe we get occupied again, so it is [laughs] very important for us to articulate the trade-offs very clearly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe there will be some innovation that comes around. Given the different positions, there are some common values and there are these innovations that nobody wears off. This is the kind of collaborative governance that we’re building around data." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I think every government is different, so there’s going to be a different answer in terms of her country what kind of regulation there might be or should be or could be or won’t be, given the kind of information that citizens already give the government." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I actually would like it if there were some kind of single system for healthcare where every time I move to a different city I don’t have to start all over again and fill out on paper my medical history." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Can’t there just be one place where my medical history is and all doctors I personally give access to see that, can see? We don’t even have that in the US, so I think that’s frustrating." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "On the other hand, I don’t really want the government joining all the data they have on my tax records, my health, and so on. That’s how I feel as an American. I think if I were in a different country where there was less of those kinds of values, the government will have lots of regulations and lots of control over their citizens’ data, whether the citizens like it or not." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I do think that the EU GDPR is beautiful the way you said. It’s about a long-term relationship and not so transactional." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "That’s the first step. I think the US do not have a GDPR, but the companies that are US-based but global have all have to implement EU GDPR for good. I think that’s for good. That’s the first step." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For GDPR, because the Taiwan government is at the moment negotiating everything with the EU GDPR adequacy, one interesting contrast has been brought up, because the GDPR calls for a strong data protection authority in a country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, just as Professor said, our tax registry and our health registry are in two different ministries. Our current law defines that each minister being the different DPAs, and there’s no way for them to exchange information without a particular law actually mandating this particular exchange or merging of the registries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s because the Minister of Taxation or Finance serves a different purpose than Minister of Health and Welfare. If the purpose cannot be aligned, there’s no way that we should let that registry be linked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one of the things we were talking with the EU. Of course, the EU very correctly assumes that if you have a strong DPA, at least the interpretations will be in harmony with each other when it comes law. Now, our national development council is taking up that role for interpretation and for data standards and more like the norms and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this ultimate idea of the registries themselves being held by people with the same purpose and maybe down the line with personal data agency with our personal assistance, like automated assistance holding that key, I think it’s also very important." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Thank you. I know the audience has a lot more questions lined up on Slido. Unfortunately, we are running out of time. Are there any closing thoughts that I can invite Minister Tang and Professor Wing to share? Then, we close the session." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "I am always an optimist. I live and breathe the world of technology. I always think that we try to develop technology for good purposes, but we do have to be wary of uses that we perhaps didn’t anticipate." }, { "speaker": "Jeannette Wing", "speech": "Then, I think we need to take some stand from an ethical point of view about those kinds of uses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Two years ago when I joined the cabinet, as I said, I had a compact or covenant, another contract. They nevertheless asked me for a job description. Instead of a job description, I wrote the administration a poem or a prayer [laughs] which I’m going to share with you, because it’s my self-description of my job." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It goes like this:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"When we see internet of things, let’s make it internet of beings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "Thank you, panelists, for those beautiful thoughts. Thank you. Thank you so much. We’ll keep the discussion going on these topics through the rest of the semester, so please be on the lookout for events from the Technology and Innovation Student Association." }, { "speaker": "Poorvi Goel", "speech": "I’d like to thank the panelists again for giving their valuable and very precious insights and information." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "Thank you all for joining the Institute for Public Knowledge and the GovLab at NYU tonight for this inaugural event, in a series that is part of the new Future of Democracy working group here at IPK." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "For those of you who are new to IPK, we are a social science institute at NYU that supports communication between researchers and broader publics around major public issues. Our working groups consist of graduate students and professors from within NYU as well as members of business, non-profit and academic arenas beyond the university." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "Members collaborate to write papers, host conferences and meet regularly to discuss their individual projects. If anyone here tonight is interested in joining or learning more about our Future of Democracy event, please come see me, Jessica Coffey, the Associate Director of IPK, after the event, at the reception." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "The next event in this Future of Democracy series will take place on Wednesday, September 6th, this coming Wednesday, at 12:00 PM in this very room. We will have a conversation with Geoff Mulgan, Chief Executive of Nesta, on Collective Intelligence and Democracy. Please visit IPK’s website for additional details and to RSVP." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "Now I’d like to introduce the leader of the Future of Democracy working group, Beth Simone Noveck, our humble leader." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "Beth is Director of the GovLab at NYU and its MacArthur Research Network on Opening Governance. She is a Professor in Technology, Culture, and Society at NYU’s Tandon School of Engineering and a Senior Fellow here at IPK." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "Beth was recently appointed as New Jersey’s first Chief Innovation Officer and previously served in the White House as the first United States Deputy Chief Technology Officer and Director of the Open Government Initiative under President Obama. UK Prime Minister David Cameron appointed her Senior Advisor for Open Government." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "In conversation with Beth tonight will be our guest, Audrey Tang, Taiwan’s Digital Minister in charge of social innovation. Audrey is known for [laughs] revitalizing the computer languages Perl and Haskell, as well as building the online spreadsheet system EtherCalc in collaboration with Dan Bricklin." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "In the public sector, Audrey served on Taiwan’s National Development Council’s Open Data Committee and K-12 curriculum committee, and led the country’s first e-rulemaking project. In the private sector, Audrey worked as a consultant with Apple, Oxford University Press, and Socialtext." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "In the social sector, Audrey has actively contributed to g0v, which we’ll talk about tonight, a vibrant community focusing on creating tools for the civil society and a call to fork the government. I now pass the mic to Audrey and to Beth to get us started. Thank you and enjoy." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Thank you very much, Jessica. Thank you to IPK for hosting us. For those of you in the back, we have seats up here in the front. We promise A, we won’t call on you..." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "...often. If you have to leave early, please don’t worry. Neither Audrey nor I will be insulted. Please feel free to come up and take a seat. We’d love to fill in the room and have you join us." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I’m really thrilled and grateful to Audrey for being here for our first inaugural Future of Democracy lecture conversation, as we’re going to have it. I’m hopefully not the fearless leader. I am just the modest hostess of a conversation that I think we’re all eager to have and eager to talk about." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "It’s very hard to live in the United States right now and not to be in the world right now, I think, and not to be deeply fearful and worried about the state of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "We started, let me just give a quick word of this is why we started this conversation. We’re living right now in a time, in a country, in which every day is election day, in which party politics are coming ever before problem-solving and public interest." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I think we’re very deeply concerned that this is not simply another cycle in the swing back between one party and another but potentially something deeper and more dangerous that’s going on. There are no tanks in the streets. If you’ve read Ziblatt and Levitsky, the two Harvard professors who wrote one of the many books on the death of democracy that have come out this year, it’s a particularly good one." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "They very chillingly paint the picture of how the dangers that we face today are not tanks in the streets. It’s not people with guns. It’s not people being thrown in prison. It is in fact what we’re seeing, which is Putin who is permanently in office by swapping the role of President and Prime Minister. It’s Erdoğan in Turkey. It’s Orbán in Hungary. It’s Maduro in Venezuela. It’s Modi in India." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Of course, it’s Trump here in the United states. People who deride their opponents as criminals, who maintain a constant sense of threat and support and endorse violence in our political culture, who show contempt for their critics and for the media, and who, frankly, stoke conspiracy theories galore, again to reinforce their power, and in ways that actually make us, I think, deeply fearful about our democracy." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Add on top of that the fact that for a long time now, trust in government even before these current spate of authoritarian and populist leaders, that trust in government has been declining over many, many years. In 1958, 73 percent of people said that they could trust the federal government in the United States to do the right thing just about always." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "In 2013, that number was 28 percent. Right now, in most recent surveys, the number of people who say the federal government at least does an excellent job is now at two percent." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "We’re going to hear tonight though not about the United States, but about Taiwan. Hopefully, not only about the challenges that are faced, but hopefully some very hopeful developments that Audrey and her colleagues have been able to bring about." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "We would like to find out the ways in which you are helping to make government and democracy stronger, to do a better job at delivering services, what the vision is and for creating more effective and legitimate policies. Really to understand what it is, what this revolution is that’s happening in Taiwan that may hopefully give us all some hope..." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "...for what’s happening here. Welcome very much. Let me start. We’re going to make this as much of a conversation. Knowing Audrey, she will hack whatever it is that I ask her and talk about, I hope, what she wants to." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I will start things off by really just asking you, how did you get started? What was the problem? Was it this problem that we’re talking about now? What was it that motivated you? What was the challenge really that you were setting out to solve? Was it a problem of democracy or of governance or of both?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello. This mic distorts a voice like any other intermediary, but I’ll use it anyway. Maybe not." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Try that one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe we can switch to the moderator’s one?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still not much better. Actually, can people hear me without..." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "We’re recording." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "We’re recording." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...without using the mic? This is good because we have this as well. Maybe just at this distance. Is that OK with you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very glad to be here. Actually, last week I was in London and had a hour-and-a-half conversation with Nesta folks and Geoff Mulgan as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re very much in line in value and as well as in the various innovations to democracy that we’re working on. This is my office in Taipei City. It’s called the Social Innovation Lab. It’s very playful and peaceful. It resembles my post as the Digital Minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As an anarchist, I don’t have a contract with the Taiwan government. I had a compact or a covenant, which is three basic points that I would elaborate further. The three points are in direct answer to the problem of legitimacy that we’re trying to innovate and to solve." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The three pillars of the compact are first, a voluntary association. I work with the government, not for the government. I don’t give nor take command. All I do is facilitate, make suggestions, receive fear, uncertainty, and doubts, and do some facilitated work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is radical transparency. Literally everything that I’m a chair of in a meeting in a cabinet, we publish the entire transcript 10 working days after each convention. It’s the same for lobbying and for journalists and for anyone who come to me during my office hour. Every Wednesday here, I’m in that place from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can come to talk with me long as they agree for the radical transparency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third thing is location independence. Anywhere on Earth, I’m still doing my job. This enables, of course, to have creative offices like this, but also enables a lot of regional innovation where I just go to a place and do some ethnographic thing. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like investigative reporter kind of thing in a population and in very rural or indigenous places, but meanwhile having the 12 or so ministries in the Social Innovation Lab to see through my eyes how is it like in the field out there and for the people in the field to have a real-time conversation with the 12 ministries involved in a national social innovation plan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those three taken together I think form a legitimacy system that was initially prototyped during the occupy. The occupy, for people who don’t know about it, was four years ago now, in 2014, where people occupied the Parliament in Taiwan because the MPs were on strike." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They did not wish to deliberate substantially a Cross-Trait Service in Trade Agreement or a CSSTA, and because the MPs were on strike, they went to the parliament and did the MPs’ job for them, namely deliberating the trade service agreement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What they do as a demo, in a demo in the sense of a demo seeing not a demonstration of purely protest. For 22 days or so people were just there, and also around the different street corners there was about 20 NGOs deliberating each and every aspect of the CSSTA." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was part of the people in Sunflower Revolution not as taking any of those 20 or so sides, but rather as part of the movement called g0v, which, as the moderator already introduced, is the community that caused to fork the government which was start in 2012, two years before the occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a very simple hack. You can do it yourself here. Any government website in Taiwan ends in gov.tw, and the idea very simply put is that if you don’t like, for example, the legislative website, you can just do a alternative by changing the O to a zero on the browser bar. That solves the discoverability problems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any public service, by changing O to a zero you get into the shadow government, which does the same thing except with more interactive, more open data. People participating in this movement relinquished their copyright so that by the next procurement cycle, we see a lot of g0v innovations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first one was the budget visualization and having each budget item a conversation board that actually gets merged this year, so all the 1,300 ministerial projects become a social object upon which you can have a real dialog with the public service and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All this is a fork in the government, but it’s also systematically merging it back. G0v was supporting the communication for the Sunflower Occupy throughout the 22 days, and we see something very interesting happening. We see that with this kind of radical transparency, with a location independence, where wherever you are you can be part of the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With this kind of voluntary association, people just cross-pollinate the different points around CSSTA so that over three weeks, people converge rather than diverge as some other occupies do. We converged eventually on a set of very accurate demands, which the head of parliament then accepts, and so the occupy was successful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was our first demo, but after that, we’ve just been scaling these conversations. It doesn’t take occupy to start a conversation like this, but actually it’s something the public service is comfortable of doing it themselves. That’s the legitimacy crisis, and the innovation that was brought up to solve the legitimacy crisis." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "[laughs] I want to push you just on this, but this is very interesting that whereas for...Oh, I’m sorry, here, I’ll grab the bad mic. Is that the...?" }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Obviously, Zuccotti Park, the occupy here, the Occupy Movement and the related social movements were not as successful. There’s clearly some vision that you had or that others had or they coalesced that caused you to develop some really concrete proposals to move forward." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Would you say it was a particular vision for democracy that was the cause? Why did this work and those didn’t would you say?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we benefited from seeing the other occupies around, and also from the two years between the g0v has founded to the occupy, so it was two years of civic tech people basically trying to turn collectivism into something that is more a general setting, which we call hacktivism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We do it obviously through sharing of open data, turning data into social objects through having a good social sphere, where people can ask questions without getting burdened by trolls and things like that. There’s a strong deliberative quality to the spaces that g0v has been building since 2012 to 2014." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After that, of course, we try to have a real conversation with career public service, and try to get career public service into the design of such things. Basically, by relinquish the copyright, have the public service take over the maintenance after the initial prototype." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All this fosters a culture that focus on what we call scalable listening or listening at scale, meaning that we get people into the mood of listening but do it at scale. We did not certainly anticipate the occupy, which is the real agenda-setting power, but we were almost there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When the occupy actually happened, there’s a lot of ready-made systems for crowd transcript, for crowd live streaming, for a lot of different collection of opinions, for visualizing them in clusters. For getting the digital line in the CSSTA, you just have to enter your company number or our company serial number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then it shows exactly which paragraph of CSSTA affects you in a comic way that everybody understands and things like that. All of these are ready when the occupy happened, and so we plugged in into the Occupy Movement to have half a million of people on the street using the system that previously only maybe 5,000 people was using." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I just want to push a little bit further on this, because so many of the other public engagement platforms that have been developed growing out of different social movements, and here I’m thinking about our friends in Spain, who have chosen to go a different path which is what we might think of as radical direct democracy." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Their view is they want to be Switzerland. You don’t want to be Switzerland, and I’m curious why not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not Switzerland." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Neither is Spain, but... [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I don’t know too much about direct democracy because Taiwan just at the end of this year is going to have the first substantial referendum. I think there’s 9 or 10 topics waiting for referenda, but even in our new revised Referendum Act, there’s a strong emphasis on the deliberative quality before the referendum is actually cast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think part of it is culture, because in Taiwan we can talk about, for example, consensus, and people visualize things with consensus statements, divisive statements. We can say with a straight face that this online discussion after a while in a safe enough space always produces consensus, but that’s because the social norm already values consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe just in a rough consensus way, but we are reasonably sure that it always ends up with something like that, with the right space design, and you probably cannot say that in many other places on Earth. [laughs] This is a defining characteristic that we always want to converge on something, and it’s seen as a positive social value even among people who disagree bitterly." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "You’ve created this whole ecosystem now of tools and culture for digital listening and deliberation. I know that everybody is super eager, at least I think you should be super eager to get to the demo and to see the details here. I’m wondering if you can, before we dive too deeply into the mechanics of any one platform, give us the overview about the different pieces in this vision." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "How they are connected? Whether they came one at a time or sprung whole cloth from your head and that of your colleagues. What are the components in this kind of ecosystem that have begun to create this new culture?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we consider the occupy as people really going in and thinking really deeply about one singular social issue, the difficulty usually lies in asking the right question, like how may we move forward to find some common value, i.e. \"How Might We\" questions using standard design thinking terminology. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can separate these into four different phases, where the first is the crowd fact-finding, the checking of feelings, the getting to a point where people think. These are the objective facts that we can all agree on. Then, just by listening in to people’s feelings, we have a month or so dedicated in each topic just for people to check in on each other’s feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Visualization technology certainly helps a lot here, because if you can see your Facebook or Twitter friends’ relative position in a crowd-sourced map, then people can actually relate much more, because it’s all your friends and family, so you just didn’t talk about this particular issue over dinner." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re not nameless enemies, they’re people who you can have a real conversation with and discover. All this is not done by a preset questionnaire, but rather by people sharing their authentic feelings and for other people to rate whether they resonate or not with the feelings. This feeling stage I think is very important, the reflective stage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, after we get a set of reflective rough consensus, the ideation begins, but now we have a clear goal, because the best idea are the one that takes care of most people’s feelings. Finally, the Parliament’s system or the administrative systems steps in and make decisions by essentially ratifying the ideas into a coherent decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This objective, reflective, interpretive, and decisional stages came out of a Canada research called Focused Conversation Method, and it’s broadly speaking the stages that we used for public consultations, public multi-stakeholder discussion panels." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Now tell us about the tech, and how all of this gets..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So soon? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "So soon. I can’t wait, I have too many... I’m going to come back to all my other democratic theory questions in a moment. Let me just interrupt again to say if folks in the back want to, there are seats over here on the side. Please feel free to come up and join us, but they look comfy back there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can talk about the tech." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Or you can override me. If you want to talk..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s just fine. I think the tech is worth looking about because really the reflective part was the hardest part. How do we get people with no face-to-face experience together to resonate with each other on feelings instead of just polarizing and trolling each other or scam pictures or whatever?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was the missing piece that we were looking for. Fortunately, there’s some startups in Seattle solving exactly that. That’s the pol.is system, which is the first crowd feeling checking system that we tried. We tried dozens of them. It’s the first one that actually worked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in 2015 the topic at the time was UberX, and UberX as you know is this meme called sharing economy, but the payload actually means that code dispatch car is better that law, so we need to obey to no laws. That’s more or less payload back in 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like any virus of the mind, it’s go through the interactions from drivers to passengers, to driver to passengers. It actually is a meme in the pure sense that if a driver after trying it for a couple of weeks found it’s not a very good deal after all, they will have already infected people, and that’s basically the beginning of polarization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using this kind of consultation, what we think is a vaccination of the mind so that after people confirm each other’s feelings, it became much harder for people to be polarized by one-sided PR messages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This checking in each other’s feeling is done simply by people looking at one sentiment or another, clicking I resonate with this or not, and see their avatar move among the clusters formed by the similar-minded people. There’s two things that’s worth mentioning. First, we’re not looking at the numbers at all. These numbers mean nothing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These just [laughs] basically measure the diversity of the sentiments at the moment, and anyone can just override by proposing something that’s more new and it’s more eclectic that resonates with more people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that basically there’s no reply button so you cannot really troll someone here. That’s the two-secret sauce, so to speak. [laughs] We sent that link to all the drivers and passengers and unions and whatever, and after three weeks, as I said, they came out with this very strong consensus statement just like we did during the occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A thing that had an afterward attack with the live streaming of the meetings between the stakeholders, and we bind ourself to use only the consensus statements as the agenda for the meeting, and checking into consensus resonated feelings one by one with the stakeholders. Do you agree? If you don’t, why not?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by committing their words in a live stream way, transcribe and so on, people can refer to that transcription as the social object. That leads to the much easier ratification, because people cannot easily go back on the statements they have when they know that thousands of people are watching the live stream." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That agenda was done by the same people who formed over the course of three weeks through live stream. That is the UberX case, we did maybe 26 or so cases this way, before I became the Digital Minister, and that’s the vTaiwan process in and on itself." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "That’s the vTaiwan process. A couple of questions. Tell us something about who’s participating here? vTaiwan over the course of those 26 pieces of legislation they’ve been developed have engaged about 200,000 people, is that number about correct?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. If you count people watch line stream or in pol.is, because it’s a very low threshold. All you have to do is just click a bunch of agree or disagree." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "For me, your own reflection on it. 200,000 is a pretty big number, but Taiwan has 23 million people, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "It’s still a fairly low number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Who were those people who were participating? Were you satisfied with who has participated? Let’s talk about who those individuals are or how you got them a little bit, and why you think it wasn’t more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "vTaiwan, as I said, is mostly about getting this thing, this \"How Might We....\" thing right. It doesn’t even talk about the ideation and decision making which is like the follow-up statement that each ministry has. What we focus on in this point is very much what we call a diversity in stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For UberX, of course, we have to talk to unions, to various different taxi companies, to Uber itself, to the various horizontal groups that’s formed around this particular issue. For Airbnb, it’s a very different population. For anything that’s related to digital economy, for example, for the privacy protection, either one is a bunch of very different people and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is no constituency of vTaiwan. It is mostly just people sharing pizza, food and whatever every Wednesday in the Social Innovation Lab, [laughs] and basically over at dinner think about things that they would like the politic to talk about, and also invite the various ministries and agency people to join in on this pizza discussions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Over the course, I think the Uber one, we got three month or so before we even agree on the name of the title of the consultation. We eventually settled on \"riding a car driven by someone with no professional license and charging you for it.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That absolutely neutral sentence was basically formed over many month of stakeholder gatherings which the stakeholders who participated in this eventually went back to their communities and spread this questionnaire and these oral engagement forms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is very much a stakeholder conversation platform, much like the Internet society or standard-making association rather than trying to do ourselves as something that has a power of a referendum. We’re very much not on this stage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re very much just on the fact checking and the feeling checking stage. That was the vTaiwan position, which is why it’s seen as complimentary to hierarchical power or to representative democracy, but not reinforcing it, just complementing it." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Just complementing it, but it was a very deliberate decision to start with that component of the problem as opposed to instituting a citizen jury or something that used sortition or a random selection of a representative sample of people." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "You may know James Fishkin’s work out of Stanford. He’s the granddaddy of this field who said it’s only legitimate we’re going to get a representative sample of the population, 400 people together in a room, and measure their opinion. Why start here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not very clear to me that once you get after the sortition, that these people will actually carry out the deliberation back to the communities that share their sampled statistic characteristics. That’s the first one. A second is that even if it is statistically fair, some people are just better orators than other people, better at rhetorics, better at convincing other people, given a limited amount of time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was not at all clear to us that we should start with a representative sampling. Of course, if you want this decisional part to be informed by such sortition-based sampling, we do have some of that here going on in Taiwan, but it is more of in the ideation and decisional processes and not at all in the first two phases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These two are disconnected. They can be connected by a shared question, but when we started, we were not entirely sure that we should start with a random sortition, mostly because, first, there’s no culture for it. There’s no jury system in Taiwan. We’re just starting to introduce one, so it’s experimental, and people don’t have any prior experience to sortition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that we want to make this really lightweight so that any city public servant can run it by themselves, and sortition is expensive compared to this mechanism." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "How much does this cost, by the way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Zero dollars." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Who pays for the pizza?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, who pays for the pizza? We had a donation box. After each meeting, people just chime in with coins and whatever. It is all very much crowd-funded of the people who show up for the pizza. Really, what government does is essentially two things, first, to agree to appear on the pre-meetings sending their people from the right agency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, after the questions and the reflections are synthesized, the government to reply point by point. That’s the two main commitments, and they don’t cost anything from the government agencies standpoint." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "For an anarchist, a self-proclaimed anarchist, you are remarkably concerned with government involvement and what government thinks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m concerned with public servants." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "[laughs] Tell us a little bit more about how you have engaged public servants, how you’ve gotten them to participate. Getting them to the table may be even harder than getting the pizza eaters into the room." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I’m really curious what how you’ve convinced public servants to participate, and importantly how you really had the idea that that was as crucial that it is. I agree with you completely, but it’s surely not a universally held view that they are key to the equation." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "You can’t even bring government in. Look, you yourself went into government, so it would be wonderful to figure out why that happened. Did you take a wrong turn? How did you end up in government, and then being so good at convincing government become part of this process?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, during the occupy, the legitimacy or people’s approval rating of the central administration was at nine percent. It’s not exactly two percent, but it’s dangerously close." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is a time when the entire public administration lost legitimacy. Also, at the end of that year of the occupy, every mayor who did not support occupy lost the mayoral election. The mayors who did support the occupy, they found themselves mayors, was not preparing any inauguration speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is also something that happened in Spain actually." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the time, a kind of moment in democracy, where the people in the public service very much did not want another occupy, which is why the new premier at the time just invited the neutrals during the occupy -- the facilitators, the communicators, the people who worked with all the different 20 different NGOs -- essentially as mentors or advisers to the public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I remember the first few lectures I gave, there were three lectures to 100 people each, and they were ranked 12, almost the highest rank in the career of public service. There was exactly 300 such people in the Taiwan Administration in all the different city, different branches in the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the 300 officials have ranked 12, basically, through the three-hour lecture on how vTaiwan works, how the occupy technologies work, and how to communicate with people. I found that most of them are actually very much pro to this kind of conversation, mostly because in career public service, the deal was pretty bad because if things go right, the Minister takes all the credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If things go wrong, they take all the blame." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, people don’t innovate in such circumstances. they found that there is something in that for them for radical transparency because if there’s good ideas, even in the early stages, people discover about how professional they are, and also how truly concerned they are for the public welfare." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t usually see that because you see that only after the administrator takes or rejects their proposals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second, it really reduced the risk because if you communicate with people who would have been on the street but now is willing to go the Social Innovation Lab, then there’s much less risk for everybody else involved, so more credit, less risk. Also, less work. So why not?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is why after which I trained another a thousand or so public servants of lower ranks in the civil academy doing this." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Wow. Let’s stick in with vTaiwan for a minute. I want to come back and ask you about the lab and the rest of this ecosystem. Talk to us a little bit about the impact from your perspective." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "26 pieces of legislation, 200,000 people participating, how would you describe the impacts both in terms of individuals, in terms of the institutions, in terms of society? Are those laws better laws as a result of this? How do you know?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a very fair question. Of course..." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "[laughs] To which you have an answer to everything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This was the detailed interfaces, more colorful but less legible. I would say that the vTaiwan is a kind of existential proof to everybody involved that this is possible, but at the time, the Uber case in particular, I think there’s three notable omissions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First is that we, the civic hackers, did all of this ourselves. We did not actually involve... Oops, I think it went to sleep or something." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Check the input terminal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just hit the key and it will wake up. We may not..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, that’s fine. It will come back. Here we go. At the time, the civic hacker did everything and did not involve the career public service in the preparation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is why it did not actually scale into city level or municipal level, because while everybody see that this is obviously working, the \"how to make it work\" is not exactly common knowledge to the public service especially on the municipal level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing was that when we did this experiment, Uber was only operating in Northern Taiwan in Taipei and Taoyuan and so on, so we did not invite taxi drivers from the Southern Taiwan that will go back to the owners because the legitimacy was simply not there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third thing, finally, is that people keep in this conversation want to broaden the scope to talk about platform economy in general, but not UberX or Airbnb in particular. We should have gone with that and that also came back to haunt us [laughs] because then, we’ll have to do a case by case for each and every cases after that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We remedied some of that after I become the Digital Minister. I think, what prevented vTaiwan from getting into all the municipal places was it is very cutting edge, and the people who do it did not actually do it with the career public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is seen as a plug-in or an oracle in computer science speak, where you can just plug in and it gives you a good resonating consensus, but it is very much a black box from the current public service point of view. They may accept that there is no legal risk in doing this, and also, that it also saves them time for most tasks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So I don’t think it became really popular because the public service at that time, still, they don’t know how to upgrade it independent of those civic hackers." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Does that explain the...I think someone else has said that 20 percent of the deliberation sort of happened on vTaiwan and have not led to decisive government action. Is that because of the lack of public service or just the participation or is the nature of the issue?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not really. There’s only one case that people reached a consensus and that did not get turned into a law. That’s the online liquor sales case. In every other case, the consensus was respected. Sometimes, it did not lead to action because the collective consensus was, we don’t need a law for it or we don’t need new laws for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The cyberbullying one, in particular, after various rounds of discussions, people generally think bullying has existing laws to work with it. What we should do is, basically, have a foundational law that treats online behaviors in the same way as offline behaviors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In cases where the metaphor doesn’t hold, provide breaching clauses for it to hold, but not to treat cyberbullying as a different thing as bullying. People generally agreed to not have a special cyberbullying law, which was the original ask." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In many cases, people deliberated, and after a few months, decided that, maybe, the best course of action was not governmental action, but action from the social sector, the civil society and private sector to build new norms. That case count for most of the 20 percent where it did not lead to government action." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "In your wildest dreams, does every piece of government action go through this process?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. [laughs] Mostly because getting people on the same page is really difficult. This checking of reflective feelings rest on the fact that people can look at a description in some crowd-sourced data about private drivers and charging people for it. Everybody who participate have an idea of what is it like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it is too far in the future, for example, if we’re deliberating about, I don’t know, zero-knowledge proofs and data agency based on mutual ledgers governance systems, then it will require a lot more intuition-building before we actually enter the checking of feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Alternatively, if we’re talking about transitional justice of indigenous nations, the past vary too wildly. The same concept don’t even hold the same currency in people’s mind who all came from the 16 different indigenous nations in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The transitional justice process, we can’t just say, \"Go use the vTaiwan process,\" because the basic empathy, the basic vocabulary have to be built before even the facts can be considered. If it’s too far in the future, too far in the past, or is a mixture in between, I don’t think this actually is the best focus." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Do tell us a little bit, if we can do it without... apologies for the visuals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s just fine." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Although we can try to troubleshoot them in parallel, I want to ask you about the rest of the ecosystem. I’m sure there’ll be lots more questions that I haven’t asked yet or we haven’t the time to cover on the vTaiwan mechanics. I don’t want to run out of time to really talk about the broader, the role that the lab plays, the role that some of the other pieces, which I won’t give away and let you tell us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All that was up to mid-2016 before I got this post of Digital Minister. After I got into this post, there was this compact of three clauses. My main aim in the public digital innovation space that we set up was mostly just to get a career public service the confidence of running these process by themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The platform we chose was the Join platform, which is at once, e-petition platform, the regulatory pre-announcement platform and the budgets discussion platform that I just showed the people about. You can fill it in your head." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, you look at one piece of the budget, you don’t like how it’s being used. You can petition for it. After you collect 5,000 electronic signatures, the government is committed into authoring it, substantially, then hopefully leading to new regulations, which gets pre-announced on the same platform. You can then have a discussion also on that with public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The e-petition part, when I became the Digital Minister, it’s really pretty good for things that pertains to one single ministry or one single agency. It’s spectacularly bad if it is cross-ministerial. That is because no ministry want to answer for the other ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it concerns three different ministries, each ministry use a lot of words, dutiful reply to explain why this is respectively not their business, their business, and their business. It’s pretty bad. [laughs] The first thing we did after I became Digital Minister is to set up a team of what we call participation officers, or POs, in each and every ministry and have them form a virtual team." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just basic game theory. If you’re going to interact with the same bunch of people for the next four years, then you better collaborate. Previously, it’s different people every time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, when people do a petition in Taiwan, they know, even if it’s cross-ministerial, even when people petition for, for example, in South Taiwan there’s people petitioning for stationing helicopters to serve as ambulance cars because they are too far away from a major hospital." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be solved by depositing the helicopter, which would be the Minister of Interior, or by building faster roads, which would be Transportation, or building a large hospital there, which would be Health and Welfare, and/or doing more relocation of population. Actually, there’s National Defense there, as well, because there’s a defense air base there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be solved in five different ways. What prevented these ideas from being fully explored was the previous leaders, no virtual network of such participation officers to fully all go to that town hall function and make sure that everyone..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yay, it’s back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...to make sure that everyone is on the same page and also making sure that..." }, { "speaker": "Jessica Coffey", "speech": "It’s almost back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s almost down. If you can just open QuickTime, start our recording, and then we may actually back to these issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Please don’t do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK, just start mirroring and then start a new recording." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Not sure my QuickTime’s here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Can I help?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll first turn on the mirroring, and then we start QuickTime. Once QuickTime has started recording..." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "This gives me a moment. While they’re doing this, we’re getting close to the time in which it’s time for your questions instead of mine. We’re using the hashtag IPK, #IPK. Obviously, you should feel free to just raise your hand, but you can also send questions in via Twitter. We’ll try to take them by both modalities." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "If you’re watching this live-streaming, by all means send #IPK. For people in the room, you can have your choice, have your cake and eat it, too. Hooray. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let me just take a couple minutes. These are the participation officers. Every month we meet, vote, and talk about questions that requires cross-ministerial support. Here are the petitioners. Just by petitioning, they automatically get invitation to such collaboration workshops which are, if they want, live streams, so that people can also participate over the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just one collaborative meeting. For example, the tax system case, there was four subsequent meetings, where people just collaboratively co-created the tax reporting system. In the Hengchun case I just talk about, it’s literally all the different ministries and all the different local stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why we can get all the different ministries was that, in the participation officer regulation, all these are national regulations. In the e-participation regulation we said that whenever there’s more than one owning agency, each considering each other owning it, and they only want to support it, everybody owns it. They all have to go to where the people are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We went there, took five hours explore every single options using the Policy Lab methodology of mind-mapping. Basically explored all the different options before setting on the insight that we should actually retain people’s trust on their local hospitals, and so we really should build a larger hospital, after exploring all the different options." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those are every other Friday. Next Monday, after each collaboration meeting, I bring the synthetic document into the premier meeting with the Premier and other ministers, and see whether the Premier is OK with it. Once the Premier is OK with it, of course, after a couple weeks, the hospital just [snaps fingers] gets a budget and it gets built." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very quick turnaround system from people surfacing there is a local or a national issue, to the participation officers crowding in, and to make all the different solutions possible understandable. Then the people getting a consensus, and the Premier actually gives blessing to the cases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using this new e-petition-driven method, we handle another 40 cases -- this is in parallel with the vTaiwan service -- about half of which has led to a new budget, a new policy, or so on. The other half, again, it’s not because of inaction. It’s because, after thoroughly discussing whether Taiwan should change its time zone to +9, people decided maybe it’s not the best idea after all, so it did not actually get changed to +9." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "How do you ensure, though, that in any of the processes the information is brought to bear to make that decision in a rational way, based on data, based on information, and not based on irrational preferences?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the career public service doing all this preparation. We’re just facilitating and providing the missing proficiencies. Even at that, the facilitative, the recording, the translational proficiencies, we make sure that it’s all transferred back into the public service. Of course, they would insist on that, because it’s them running the show. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that we also leave room for reflections. In the Hengchun case with helicopters, we used two rooms. A smaller room, about 20 people, just like this, of people doing co-creation, discussion, and so on. A larger room that can fit hundreds of people, actually in a kind of town hall, is where we watch the livestream together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The digital ministry is in the town hall with the people, watching the livestream in the smaller room, and serving as a kind of ESPN anchor to explain what this slide means, what this move means, whatever, and making sure that people who want to vent, who want to protest, they can just come to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The media is in the town hall, obviously, while the professionally, neutrally, facilitated, high-performance meeting is happening concurrently. People won’t protest for very long, because everybody want to watch the movie, also because it’s not live streamed back. [laughs] All the protests, all the shouting, doesn’t actually affect the deliberation that’s happening in the smaller room." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, any new point they make that’s in relation with the mind map is tagged and brought back through Slido, through other digital tools, so that people there can also see the outside people’s contributions, but always within the context of the mind map, that they’re doing the mapping." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "What’s the experiment you next want to try? What haven’t you done yet? Is it scaling what you’ve done, trying something new, or both?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a mayoral election coming soon. We’re already getting some interest and commitments, from both existing mayors and mayoral candidates, of basically taking this system, which is national regulation, and introduce it at the municipal level, so that they would want to try this, not just for participatory budgeting, of which there’s many, but also policymaking, at city level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also seeing a lot of interest because Taiwan is now doing a lot of experiment on what we call sandboxes, which is this idea of people experimenting with breaking the law for a year or so. I think this is worth sharing. This is essentially us encouraging people who want to do platform economy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our final solution is just, for people who want to break the law -- to do platform economy or fintech, or later this year UVs, and the UVs could be hybrids -- to break the law for a year and work with any willing municipalities. They can break the law for a year, basically running with a forked version of the law which the government had set up in place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After running it for a year, we use this kind of consensus-gathering mechanism to make sure that the society really thinks this fork is a good idea. If it’s not a good idea, we thank the investor for paying the tuition for everyone..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and reduce the risk for everybody else afterward. Otherwise, it may be extended to a larger scope, including a business model for another year. If it’s a regulatory change, it would [snaps fingers] just happen if people deemed this a good idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it requires a law change, then it’s up to four years when the MPs deliberate on that, in which the people applying for a sandbox just essentially gets a monopoly in municipality, in this kind of business experiments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A lot of the steps that we’re now taking is basically empowering the municipalities to be able to run this kind of process when they deal with a sandbox application and evaluate its applicability to the local social good and social needs." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I’ll do one more for me, and then I’ll save the rest of mine until we get a chance for everyone else to come in. I have to ask, because everybody always asks me about the risks." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "With the introduction of and the moving of so much of democratic life in your vision online, how do we square that with the dangers of, people always ask about self-surveillance, of privacy, the risk as we look at what China’s doing with regard to social credit scoring and potentially rating people, and using that score to determine whether you’re allowed to have a political voice." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "What do you perceive to be the greatest risks in this process, or is it all upside?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re all very wary of vendor lock-in. When we first used pol.is for the UberX discussion, there was a lot of flak from the civic tech community, because it was proprietary. Even though that the folks running pol.is said that they would share all the data, we have no way to know whether they were actually sharing all the data. They’re really just a Seattle startup." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we don’t know what is the data policy like. We took the bet, but we also peer-pressure a lot for them to go Affero GPL, which is one of the most libre version of open-source licenses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also making sure that we can host it locally and basically have everybody can be part of the governance system that makes sure that this mechanism of democracy is itself democratic, in the sense that its code, its data, its operation is community-owned." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After I became the Digital Minister, of course, I took this philosophy into my office. Basically, we built this sandstorm.io installation, which is, again, another startup. But it’s all open-source, and we get our separate security people to audit it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What this does is basically it sandboxes the apps in a computer science sense. It boxes the apps that runs on top of it so that they don’t have to worry about cybersecurity authentication, authorization, and whatnot. We can use all open-source technologies for collaborative decision-making, just note taking or whatever on top of this platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our career public service can even just learn some JavaScript and write a small application for ordering lunch boxes together or planning trips together -- that actually happened -- and running on this platform without worrying about cybersecurity, about infiltration, about surveillance, and whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The code itself, being audited and open-source, is a collective resource managed by the entire worldwide civic tech community, of which Taiwan is one installation of many." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I won’t monopolize any longer. You do have an initial question coming on Twitter but I’m going to look for a show of hands in the room. I’ll ask you, if you don’t mind, to also pull up the hashtag because my battery’s about to die. I met you let self-moderate the Twitter questions, but do we have an early volunteer? Please." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Thank you so much for your input. I got to ask in the age of fake news, what’s the role of journalism in..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In all this?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "...in your project, and moving forward? What has been the role of journalism and how do you envision the role of journalism moving forward?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t use the f-word myself. I prefer to call them disinformation when they’re intentional and misinformation when they’re not. That way it’s not an affront to journalists -- both of my parents were journalists." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyway. I found that radical transparency is really empowering investigative journalism and just quality journalism in general. A lot of journalists’ work is just to get the scoop from the ministers. When a minister basically publish everything, agree to no exclusive interviews, everybody is on the same ground." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When a lobbyist come, like Mr. Plouffe here, talking for Uber at the time, we make sure it’s not just on transcript record but actually on 360 recording, so any journalist can put on VR goggles and relive the moment of the negotiation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is very powerful in the sense that once everybody gets some facts, the journalist with perspective, with time for investigation, with their own life experience to bring to the table can produce much more powerful pieces, but still within the time frame that still attracts popular attention." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without these raw materials’ being made available, their life is much harder, because they have to compete with short-term attention and also try to get some sort of information out there, but it is much higher chance because they’re racing, essentially, with the tabloidic journalism to produce something. Then it will contain more misinformation in it, which will reduce the quality of their reporting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the investigative journalists, I think, are really our friend. In PDIS they are also my colleagues who during the occupy ran the e-forum, which is the neutral journalism outlet during the occupy. It’s very much on our mind that what we’re doing is basically investigative work for journalism, but in a minister’s post within the cabinet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This kind of reliable information is also when Taiwan is...There’s a lot of disinformation campaigns, especially now we’re this close to election. The administration’s committing to replying to all the spreading of disinformations in a timely, open, structured fashion so that every ministry can reply within three hours or four hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever there’s a disinformation campaign, there’s a clarification from the ministry. We’re not censoring speech at all. What we’re doing is ensuring that people get this habit of waiting a couple hours, and then see whether a clarification came out from the administration. That’s all we’re doing -- basically defining a social norm around rapid response and reasonable disclosure from the ministries." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "More questions. In the back. I see a hand. Oh. Andrew. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Thank you. My question is about, you mentioned empathy earlier and how this approach doesn’t make a lot of sense for issues that are longstanding, deeply held lack of information on different sides." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My question is whether you have explored any other approaches for establishing that kind of empathy between different parties, or if you think the problems are so complex and long-lasting that they frankly just should fall outside of the remit of a digital ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is the Holopolis project, which is now taking place I think in Madrid. They are setting up a lab there. It started in Taiwan and it was initially in my research proposal. I was just working on it when they told me that they want me to be the Digital Minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, the idea, very simply put, is to use augmented and mixed and virtual reality to make sure people have some lived-in experience of one another before entering a discussion if it’s too far in the past." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For things too far in the future, for example, when building a hypothetical, I don’t know, airport or whatever, at least we can take those blueprints from the architects and situate people in future versions of that airport and actually feel how it is like to be maybe a non-human, because for endangered species we can also look at their lived-in experience as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I did a VR conversation with a bunch of schoolchildren who all very much appreciate that I scaled down my avatar to be the same height as them. They could be at eye level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of design that went into this very carefully to make sure that people can be literally in each other’s shoes or avatars, and also that there is meaningful use of chat bots that can go back and forth on this lived-in experience to simulate a kind of conversation you would have if, for example, the spirits lived there, the spirit of a river, the spirit of the endangered species." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a little bit animist, even, but we’ve found that it is actually very effective in getting people into the mindset of listening to social objects that cannot speak for themselves. Future generations, things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a lot of active research, but mostly it’s now done by my other colleagues who are actually interaction designers in PDIS and not me personally, so I’m just talking about their work. If you’re interested, join the Holopolis project." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi. Thanks. I was wondering, you’re describing how in the case of Taiwan, Occupy Movement -- it’s part of a networked social movement. There was networked social movements all across the world in the last six years. Some have been more ambitious or \"successful.\" I challenge how we read or understand success, because I think of certain kinds of social movements." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "One question I have is, you didn’t have the opportunity necessarily to embed these civic deliberation methodologies into a political campaign, because it sounds like the ministries were scared and opened up space that, traditionally, social movements would need to amass space and go run for elections, kind of like they did, the Municipalists did in Spain three years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m just wondering, have you given any thought to how these processes might look in that context? I’m interested to hear any thoughts you have." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think Taiwan’s political system is different though. People elect directly the president, who appoints the premier and appoints the cabinet. That is separate from the legislative function. Actually, a majority of bills passed by the legislation starts as the draft from the administrative function." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this system, the administration is remarkably party-free. There’s more independent ministers at the moment in the cabinet than members of any party in the cabinet. We can’t say that of the legislative function at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we’re saying is that basically this system protects, creates kind of a buffer zone, for this kind of conversation directly with the population, without threatening the legislative. Because if it requires a law change, eventually the MPs will have a say, party politics will play a role." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just at the feeling-finding, or the fact-finding and consensus-finding stage, nobody objects for the career public service to do a little bit more to prepare the MPs better for what people feel. I think this, the administration doing some preparatory work for the eventual referendum or the eventual MPs, this is something that everybody can get behind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, it is already a very good idea. We don’t need to campaign especially hard for that. Rather, people who held some reservations, as I said, lost their mayoral elections anyway in 2014. Within our new political landscape, we don’t even need to deal with the people who refuse this kind of thing, because four years ago they were just all gone." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "More hands. I’m going to ask you a question off of Twitter while people are thinking. From Tamas in somewhere, writes..." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m here." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Oh, you’re here. Ask your question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "No, it’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "No, no, please. My phone just died, so now you have to ask the question. You don’t look anything like you do on Twitter." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I had to ask the question on Twitter because I Googled join Taiwan, and it was very funny to get the first hit. If you want to see that it’s all on Twitter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. I see that." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "It was about the question that Google has as the first hit is \"When does Taiwan join China?\" something like that. I had to show that. The question that I have is about the risk of public servants. I like how you reframed that." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "As a public servant myself, I see lots of colleagues who are very afraid to join any participative process. I was wondering, can these people in your radical transparent world, can public servants join anonymously in an online world?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Of course. They can choose any nickname they want and basically anonymize themself. The transcript is published after only 10 working days of collaborative editing. People who don’t want some words to be taken out of context, people who want to add in more supplementary material, people who after reading the transcript actually change their positions, they can all reflect that in the final published version." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The upshot of this is that the public sees career public service as something very professional after reading all these transcripts. My work in channeling back the Reddit equivalents is also make the Internet people participation sound very professional, because I remove all the exclamation marks and cat pictures" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and actually only delivered the substance back to the meetings. I think it really builds mutual trust after you experience this for a time or two. It really aligns what career public service is like, because it really reinforces the message of what the values that our career public servants hold without exposing them to personal risk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If everything turns out very well, we can always re-identify yourself and take the credit for it." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Other comments, questions. Please." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi. My name’s Nathan Storey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hi!" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Audrey, it’s nice to see you again. I just want to note that a few months ago we were in this same room for the Fearless Cities conference, and it was this exact room where you were appearing remotely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My question is about the role that you see Taiwan playing in these emerging networks of cities, local governments and movements that are forming networks with each other outside of the nation-state level, and why you were doing that." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Why you were on a panel, Fearless Cities, with counterparts from Madrid and Wikipolítica in Mexico, an opposition party, and why you were traveling to London and here. What are you trying to accomplish with all of this travel?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It used to be that it takes paragraphs to explain, but now with the excellent technology that is Sustainable Development Goals, all it takes is a few numbers. I’m working on 17.18, 17.17, and the 17.6 of the Sustainable Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We found this to be really effective, because digital social innovation in the context of the Sustainable Goals is really the glue that holds people caring about society, caring about environment, caring about education, about equality, about whatever, together in a way that is to the benefit of everybody instead of everybody working on different directions and canceling each other off." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The methodology in the global goals is just to enhance availability of reliable data, of getting people on the same page, literally using distributed ledgers or whatever as needed to make sure that people trust the evidences that their action is having, impacting, on the respective domains." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Encourage effective partnerships by basically building a common vocabulary of, say, #crowdlaw, of a catalog, a system that people can compare what they are doing within their very different narratives but with some metrics that people can amplify their work and compare their work against each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, to share innovations in technology, so that when we solve this for Taiwan, we know the limitations, but if you’re operating on a different municipality, maybe that limitations don’t apply to you and you can extend our vision and do better. We were happy to learn." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This kind of open innovation, I think, is the key to getting some sort of solidarity across the different municipalities who are all working on this very same legitimacy problem, but with very different cultural norms. I think Taiwan’s role as one of the places where really there is no other choice but innovate without leaving anyone behind. Because otherwise the people who get sacrificed just occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is essential [laughs] for us to document and to share our findings, but also work as one of the reliable partners to hold such evidences and such data and such studies, and participate in the global network." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I have a question." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "You have two, one here and one here." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "You came out in the room and talked that you’re an anarchist. When I think of anarchy, I think of a lot of passion and protest. We see people here protesting on the streets and at the end of the day, nothing gets down." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "What you’re doing in Taiwan, I see a lot of organization there. It takes a long time. How do you maintain that momentum of passion that you always have for what you’re doing and with everyone else who’s involved, how do you maintain that through this process?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you. I’ve wrote entire treaties about this [laughs] back when I was working in the free software community. It’s called -Ofun: Optimize for Fun. There’s a whole bunch of methodologies to basically celebrate small successes, make things fun and make the fun contagious." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that the origin of the anarchist thinking for me, because I learned anarchism first from the classic texts but also from the fables and stories of Laozi and Zhuangzi in the old Daoist tradition. They were very much against hierarchical power as well, but they explained their philosophy in a way that is fun, that appeals to even a five-year-old when I first read it, Daoist texts. It’s basically very intuitively appealing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you maintain this intuitive appeal without actually throwing bombs, things like that, and destroy people who don’t agree with the anarchist agenda, you’ll get what I call conservative anarchism, meaning that a anarchist tradition, they’ll respect the traditions but don’t reinforce them, who work alongside hierarchical power and shifting them into peer-to-peer power but without usurping it within the old power logic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think Buckminster Fuller captured it best. When you don’t fix a broken system, you make one, a new one that makes the old obsolete. Then that’s exactly what we’re doing, which is a lot of fun." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "We had a question over here." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi, I currently study the urban grammatics, so the public health and all the healthcare as well is my interest in directions. For example, I think if people go to the hospital, it’s always expensive and time-consuming." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I think that is a problem that people voice concerns to. I wonder, in your opinion, how your ecosystem could address it or help to improve it in and/or does your ecosystem of e-participation already accumulate some solutions about it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of people petitioning and working toward digital health. Taiwan wasn’t that big on telehealth before, but because of the vTaiwan methodology, we found out a lot of people who want to do e-health not because they’re too far away from a clinic but rather, they want a continuous ongoing relationship with their clinicians and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It services real needs and cover that with the aging issue in Taiwan. There’s a rapidly declining birth rate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We work with elders for whom it is much more difficult to actually go to a clinician. All that resulted in the Additional Health Initiative and Telemedicine Bill, and whatever of this year. This is one of the most popular, actually, topics in both vTaiwan and also the Join platform. The Join platform gets a lot of people passionate about having the clinicians, the large hospitals’ doctors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As well as if they’re in off-shore islands, then the helicopters, the people who actually does the showing on the same page using open standards, using the cutting-edge technologies such as voice assistance to make sure that elders receive the medical care in the accent, in a culture that they understand, in the words that they understand, using metaphors that they understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And can also capture their non-verbal response to such cues and such dialogues in a way that feels comfortable to them instead of asking them to speak perfect Mandarin or whatever to get into the system. That is one very active research agenda." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m very happy that vTaiwan played a very small role in opening up the public imagination into the inevitableness but also the urgency of working out additional health." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "We have two hands over here and in the back. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hello, my name is Marco, I’m from Brazil. I read the Chris Horton’s article \"MIT Technology Review.\" I don’t know if you have read it. In general, the article says that you have a very ingenious system for crowdsourced output." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Then, they said that there is a statement that the platform has its limits. It needs the real power. I would like to know what we are doing to get the real power? It means what the people institutional reforms you are thinking or trying to propose to, especially keep these changes continuing and doing next administrations in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the consensus of the vTaiwan community, which I certainly cannot represent, but I can re-present them, is to scale out, to scale up, and also, to scale deep. That’s the three different directions that the various vTaiwan community actors are taking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Scaling out, I already mentioned, meaning the municipalities, city and even smaller communities need to be made comfortable in running this process by themselves without waiting the national government to do it for them, which is why the sandbox experiments and so on is so important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It gives something that’s pertinent to that particular place to deliberate on without waiting for the central administration to do it for them. That’s scaling out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On scaling up, there’s many people who think that vTaiwan should be coupled with the referendum process or some other process that gives final binding power a lot more than what we already have at the moment, which is just really consultative power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of this year, there’s a national, what we call, Digital Communication Act. This is for all the things pertaining to digital communication, to Internet governance, to multi-stakeholder governance around transnational issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Something like the vTaiwan method must be used, and that’s the first time that this method, what we call open multi-stakeholder consultation process, is written into the law itself. That will give the scaling up the binding power that it needs on a national area, but we are still waiting for the legislators’ green light. It will probably happen in a couple months. We’ll see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, scaling deeply, scaling this idea into the K-12 curriculum system. It’s for the students to co-create curriculum with the teachers, which is just happening now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The new curriculum goes online next September, where we will redesign the capstone and classes to make sure that K-12, junior high, senior high, and college level solve social environmental problems collectively as part of their learning, instead of just waiting until they’re adults, and then participating in this process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I’m a junior high school dropout. My first foray into democracy is in the Internet Society. That was when I was 14. I just imbued myself into this raw consensus process for six years before I even get my first voting right in representative democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that kind of formative experience is really important, and we really need to scale deeply into the minds of the junior high school students, who will lead the future direction of the Earth, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I think we had two questions over here, is that right? Should we gather two questions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, why not?" }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Then we’ll begin to wrap up. Do you still have a question? No? Kai, was that a hand for you? Did you change your mind?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "No, but I can ask one." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I saw a hand before. Maybe it was a nose scratch. My apology. We have one all the way in the back that’s next." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m going to focus a little more practically, I guess. My name’s Kai Feder. I work with Beth in New Jersey capacity as of two and a half weeks ago. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "When you’re looking at, with civil servants in particular that are used to very rigid structures, and you’re engaging them in this very different approach to governance, innovation, etc., are there specific types of characteristics and skills that you think really lead to more successful outcomes?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "That either A, attract the specific civil servant to get involved into something like this, and also, help projects succeed internally, and be able to navigate within their respect agency or role." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Do you want to take that, or do you want to take two questions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. Maybe let’s take two questions?" }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "[laughs] From the shadows." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "That question fits, I think, well with mine, which is what do you think of if a governor of a state said, \"I love this process. I think we should implement it,\" and pulled his CIO, \"OK, make this happen.\" A, is it top-down implementation of this type of...?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Has the g0v community thought about how to support such an implementation? Is there something antithetical about applying it from an executive level on down without the community self-organizing this? Also, and more concretely, how many apps?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "You’re using Sandstorm. You’re using all these softwares. What is the minimum viable resource investment necessary to put that infrastructure together to be able to implement this in any type of way that would be respected in the public arena?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like how to boot strap, huh? I think the minimum boot loader is very simply a physical place. The architecture of the physical place, of the public additional innovation space, I think, determines the kind of people who want to go to it and who want to stay and who want to basically make collective decisions and take risks together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I say this because this place was literally co-created by hundreds of social innovators. They asked for a kitchen, and they got a kitchen, a chef. It opens until 11:00 PM every night and so on. Basically, people feel that this place is where they are, where they belong, and where they is willing to come back even after spectacular failures in experimentation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This whole notion of going into a space and see some self-driving tricycles roaming around [laughs] is seen as kind of a social norm. Every time you go into Social Innovation Lab, you will find new ideas and new experiments running around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For me, if there’s one single thing is this recurring, reflective, recursive space that allows for a culture of people authentically sharing their experience and failures, dreams, and whatever, and then still willing to come back to the place. This is also the place we hold all the teleconferences with me touring Taiwan and using video conferencing and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The 12 different ministries people, when they go to this place, it feels like play, even if it’s actually work. It feels like play, because they get to see new experiments, new social innovations along the way. They understand that they’re not under any sort of risk of attack, of protest, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People cannot attack them over the monitor anyway, so everybody acts very civilized and so on. Gradually, it lowers the fears, uncertainty, and doubt of public service when it comes to public engagement. That is the only thing that’s missing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The career public service’s perfectly capable, generalists and specialists to deal with these kinds of issues. It was just the silos that prevents their empathy from showing forward and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just creating this recursive space and culture I think is the boot loader that you just talk about and also what I would recommend when bootstrapping from a new municipality and whatever. We hold training classes, actually, this June in NYC, and also very soon, I think November in Canada, and in many other places." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re building a English curriculum of the curriculum that we’re offering to the municipalities in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Did you get Kai’s question?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Just about the general personality and/or technical skills." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sorry, general personality?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Personality or technical skills as well, though, that really make civil servants that are engaging on these projects successful, especially given the fact that you’re introducing them to a very new, novel environment and..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I didn’t get much time to talk about PDIS, the Public Digital Innovation Space, which is kind of a reincarnation of the g0v culture within the central administration. PDIS is at the moment I think 22 full-timers, about 40 or so interns. It’s like a small internal startup within the central government. It’s like Policy Lab or whatever and everywhere." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What sets PDIS apart, though, is that I talk as part of my compact when I joined the cabinet that I can poach at most one person from each ministry to work full-time in the Public Digital Innovation Space. They’re not like the POs. The POs, they grow. They get new POs in the third-level, fourth-level agencies. The PO network just grows. It’s now more than 60 people now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "PDIS remains small, because it’s at most one person from each ministry, which means a maximum capacity of 32 people, because there’s 32 ministries in Taiwan, you see. Because of that, it is by definition cross-functional. It is by definition people who care about various many different things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s a constant here is that everything joins by voluntary association. I don’t even give them command. I don’t even rate them or score them. Everybody writes their own job description, writes their own scorecard. If they want to do something they have to pitch to the rest of the team, who all came from different ministries anyway, so you better find some common values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It means that first, all the mechanism that came out of PDIS doesn’t sacrifice any other ministry. It is not a place to do ministerial politics, because every other people are there too and we work out loud using the traditional open-source free software mechanism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that when we do the recruiting, we find that people who are willing to join naturally are more of a giver. They wish to contribute more than what they can take to the public good. This is not some HR criteria." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just in a anarchist workspace you have to be this kind of people in order to have fun. Otherwise it’s just not fun at all, because if you are after petty politics or whatever, you do don’t get much satisfaction from an anarchist minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the second thing, is the fulfillment of giving and contributing. The third thing, I think, really is just the PDIS being a kind of risk-free space for you to do the experiments, because if anything goes wrong, it’s always Audrey’s fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s what empowers the career public service. We have our PDIS member from the ministry of foreign affairs [laughs] and there’s many other ministries’ people currently in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Do we have any final questions? OK, you’ve earned it, cameraman." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Thank you. I have a small two-part question. The first is related to the minimum viable resource question, which is, is technology crucial to decentralized consensus-making, to what you do?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The second part is, if it is, then have there been attempts to game the system, because anything that’s online, whether it’s Facebook or whether WhatsApp, there’s always people who find a way to game the system and have there been instances of people trying to game vTaiwan and how did you work on that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we usually say civic tech, but I mostly think in a framework of calm technology, in the sense they’re technologies that allows people to focus more on each other, rather than distract people’s attention from each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Calm tech, or assistive tech, or ambient tech, however you want to call it, of course doesn’t have to be digital. It could be post-it notes. It could be white-boarding or whatever. It could be sign language used during the occupy. It could be people’s microphone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s all sort of technologies that you can deploy without it being a digital technology. We use digital technology mostly because it allows this experience to scale horizontally and for the ideas, thoughts and reflections reached in a face-to-face setting to ripple out without dying down, because there’s just not too many people joining the protest on the street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is more in a conservation part of the consensus-making process of it than the amplification part of it. We’re not too big on the amplification part of it. Even though, having said that, the Join platform is now 5 million users out of 23 million population, which is not too bad." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The gaming part. Back when we did Airbnb case, which is right after UberX, Airbnb sent a email to all its Taiwan members asking them to come to pol.is and support the Airbnb position. What they found out was that had this been a simple yes/no question or a simple questionnaire, maybe people would have behaved as the email told them to do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But because this is a open-ended, reflective space, only one-third of people they recruited this way actually agree with the Airbnb position." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many other people have much more nuanced, much more eclectic, much more resonating feelings, because they’re just motivated to press one like, but what it gets from opening the link is actually a larger crowd, a larger system, a more holistic approach, a overview effect, if you will, on the problem space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that reflective space, people behave very differently than people mobilized just to press one like on things. Of course, we see people trying to use bots and things like that, but it’s not really a big problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you write a bot that does exactly the same for 5,000 different entries, it’s just one dot in the principal component app, because we don’t even look at the numbers. What we’re looking at is the diversity, is whether you can propose something that resonate with more people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you can write a bot that generates a sentiment that resonates with more people, I for one welcome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But so far that has not happened." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "The hour is getting late, so let me close this out in the following way. This past Saturday was International Day of Democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "International Day of Democracy is a UN-created holiday, for those of you who don’t know, which really tries to zero in and focus on one specific aspect of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that celebrates its 70th anniversary this year. That is namely the idea that democracy, in that 70-year-old version, is the conduct of periodic and genuine elections." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "For those of us on this side of the table who think and feel that voting once a year is not enough, and that we can do better. That we can do better in the way that you are trying to do in Taiwan and I think have shown us may be possible, I wanted to ask and point to all of you that on your chair, you will find a manifesto on what Audrey referred to a number of times in passing, the idea of #crowdlaw." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "The idea of crowd-sourcing plus lawmaking, the idea of all of us can play a bigger and better role in engaging in how our governments make law and policy. If you like this idea of doing more things like vTaiwan, PDIS, the participation officers and the digital lab thing, which was digital..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "...Social Innovation Lab, and this whole ecosystem of initiatives that really is a thicker, more active vision of democracy, I would just invite you please to sign the manifesto and leave it behind on your chair and we will collect it." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "You can also go online to manifesto.crowd.law. Audrey has signed it. It’s really a call to all of us, to our city councils, parliaments and legislatures, to our technologists, and to each of us to play more of a role in the way that you have shown us." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "I want to just ask you as a final question, then, to give us the big vision. We started with the worried fear about democracy. The future of democracy for you. Are you optimistic, are you pessimistic? How do we realize this big vision? Close us out, then we will drink wine and cheese, and pepper you with more questions. Last word." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Back when I took the post of Digital Minister, as I said I had a compact, not a contract, but they still want a job description. Instead of a job description, I just wrote the administration a poem or a prayer, [laughs] which would serve as the job description as the Digital Minister. I think that answers the question, which is why I want to read the poem to you now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It goes like this:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"When we see internet of things, let’s make it internet of beings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Thank you to all of you for coming. Geoff Mulgan, the only person I know who’s just as smart as Audrey, and who is also a Buddhist monk, by the way, in case you didn’t know that, and advised three prime ministers in the UK, is coming to talk about his book \"Big Mind\" and collective intelligence and democracy, 26th, next Wednesday, over lunch." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "A little bit shorter, but I think we feed you a little bit more. With that said, please come. Mingle, talk. Cheese cubes await. Thank you, and thank you, Audrey, so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was great. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Beth Simone Noveck", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Good evening, everyone. Welcome to TECO. I’m the head of this office. My name is Lily. In view of such an unconventional setting and the very relaxing atmosphere, so I will try to avoid all those protocols." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Just to welcome you all to this office and to tonight’s event. I want to first thank our co-sponsors, the World Youth Alliance." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "When I mention about your organization, would the members of those organization wave to each other, so we will know who’s coming, who’s joining us? The World Youth Alliance." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Young Professionals in Foreign Policy." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "And Taiwanese American Professionals." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "If you are the others, where are you from?" }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Anyway, welcome. Welcome to tonight’s event. I also want to thank Ms. Isabel Perez of United Nations Focal Point of the Sustainable Development Solution Network Youths for kindly agreed to be our moderator tonight." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Maybe they’re from the UN Focal Point of Sustainable Development Alliance? No? OK." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Here is a little bit serious part. As United Nations just began a new session of its General Assembly this week, we are very pleased to have delegations from Taiwan to share from communities here our aspiration to participate in the United Nations, and the work we’ve been doing in line with the work of the United Nations, especially our implementation of the sustainable development goals, SDGs." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Just three days ago, our Deputy Minister of Environmental Protection Administration was here to report on the progress we’ve been making since we first announced our Voluntary National Review -- thank you very much -- VNR, last September." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Following the visit of the Deputy Minister of the EPA, we are very pleased and honored to have Taiwan’s first digital minister, Minister Audrey Tang..." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "...to share her thoughts with young professionals in the Greater New York area. Now, some of you may be aware, the United Nations Secretary General just announced that he will launch Youth 2030 Project next Monday to engage the youth more." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "We think it is an opportune time for us to have tonight’s forum with Minister Tang. It’s really a very difficult job to describe Minister Tang. She’s many things. She’s just been named among the top 20 of the world’s 100 most influential people in digital government by Apolitical, a global platform for policymakers and public servants." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "She’s, of course, our first digital minister, but in her own words, she’s working with the government, not for the government." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Her portfolio covers social enterprises, youth affairs, open government, digital governance, and many, many more. One thing I’d like to point out, she’s passionate about promoting SDGs through technology." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "We are really, really very happy to have her with us today. I also want to share with you, in her own words, what she’s been doing. She believes that by using technology creatively, humanity can facilitate deep and fair conversations, form collective consensus, and deliver solutions we can all live with." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "I think we have a lot..." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "...to talk about later, but before that, I would also like to take this opportunity to introduce members of our parliament, who traveled all the way from Taiwan to join us tonight. Legislator Ching-yi Lin." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Legislator Lee Li-feng." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "And Legislator Chen Man-li." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "We have one more missing, but he will join us later, lest you think all the members of our parliament are women." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "We do have men." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "OK. Now, they all have long been engaging in youth, gender, and social welfares, and they all play important roles in promoting and strengthening our civil society. We are honored to have them here tonight." }, { "speaker": "Lily Hsu", "speech": "Please allow me to invite Legislator Lin to say a few words on behalf of our delegation. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Lin Ching-yi", "speech": "Thank you, Ambassador Hsu. I am so honored to be here to join today’s forum. It’s so happy to see so many young people together here to discuss about the social innovation sustainable development goals." }, { "speaker": "Lin Ching-yi", "speech": "I think just as 19 years old today, Taiwan experienced a very severe earthquake. After that, even the earthquake destroyed many, many counties of Taiwan, we still rebuild after this trial. It is very similar with Taiwan’s condition." }, { "speaker": "Lin Ching-yi", "speech": "We are in a very difficult condition in international participations. I think Taiwanese, we all has used to facing all the challenge. We have used to do the best job for the international society. Actually, I think we always could find our way to participate in the international world, to participate." }, { "speaker": "Lin Ching-yi", "speech": "This is a very important job for them with the SDG. Last year, I and my colleagues, we set up the SDG advisory council in parliament. We tried to set up a pan-forum to join the government, the parliament, and our social, our populations to more focus on what Taiwan could do in SDG." }, { "speaker": "Lin Ching-yi", "speech": "I think on the 2030 agenda for SDG is a common language, most common language in further the case. Taiwan shouldn’t, and I think couldn’t, be excluded in this important dialogue. All Taiwanese, we could, we want, and we would to be a member in these very important issues in SDG." }, { "speaker": "Lin Ching-yi", "speech": "We’d love to share our experience, and we’d love to become a partner in these important actions. I’m very happy we could join here to share the different thinkings. I think we could work together in the future. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Thank you so much for such inspiring words, and welcome, everyone. It’s really a pleasure and an honor to be with all of you this evening, discussing really, my field of expertise, which is SDGs and youth, with, I think, someone who embodies what youth can do, both in the present and in the future." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I think this is really important. We have to know that young people are not only the future of society, but they are also the present. This is what we are going to discuss, per the sustainable development goals." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Now, I would like to start with one question first. It is, how many of you know what the sustainable development goals are?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Sort of, more or less, right? OK. You know, wonderful. For those who know, would you say, are they really, really, really important? Are they, “OK,” like, it’s something that it’s there, why not? Or not important at all, like, “We don’t care”?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Very, very important. All right, OK. More or less." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "OK, we have a good crowd. OK, nice, then. Not important at all, anyone say this? OK, all right. We are on the same page, then. That’s really good." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "First of all, of course, I want to acknowledge the institutions and organizations that are a part of this event. Of course, TECO, thank you very much for organizing this wonderful event here this evening. Also, the World Youth Alliance. Now, I’m really biased for the World Youth Alliance, because I’m a member of this organization." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I’ve collaborated with this organization extensively, and they’re doing extraordinary work. Maybe I would like to invite Lord Pomperada to say a few words about the World Youth Alliance." }, { "speaker": "Lord Pomperada", "speech": "Thank you, Isabel, Ambassador Hsu. The World Youth Alliance is very glad and excited to be part of this event tonight. We’re a global youth organization composed of young people from over 160 countries around the world." }, { "speaker": "Lord Pomperada", "speech": "Our main mission is to promote the dignity of the person, and to promote collaboration among young people from developed and developing countries. We do this through different programs, through cultural programs, educational programs, and advocacy programs." }, { "speaker": "Lord Pomperada", "speech": "We also work under the UN Economic and Social Council. It’s a lot of different policies to promote, again, human dignity, the family, and the voice of young people. We would like to thank TECO, Ambassador Hsu, and Minister Tang for having this event tonight." }, { "speaker": "Lord Pomperada", "speech": "We’re very excited, and we look forward to meeting all of you tonight. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I believe also Colin Wolfgang from YPFP is here." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Wonderful, so YPFP..." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "...would you like to say some words about it?" }, { "speaker": "Colin Wolfgang", "speech": "Thank you so much. YPFP is extremely thrilled to be a part of this tonight. We are a membership organization of about 20,000 individuals across the globe and across a number of branches that tries to also promote networking and the sharing of ideas." }, { "speaker": "Colin Wolfgang", "speech": "Basically, creating a space for young individuals that have an interest in international relations. I encourage all of you to take a look at our website, ypfp.org. Thank you to Minister Tang and everybody else here who’s put this wonderful event together. We’re trilled to be a part of it." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Thank you so much. I believe also Kevin Wong is here. Kevin Wong comes from the organization, TAP. Probably, you can tell us a little bit more about the organization." }, { "speaker": "Kevin Wong", "speech": "I’m from TAP New York, the Taiwanese American Professionals of New York. SDGs are not our field of expertise, but we are excited to be a part of this, and to learn. TAP New York, we are the largest Taiwanese American interest group here in New York with over 6,000 members." }, { "speaker": "Kevin Wong", "speech": "Our goal is to foster the Taiwanese American community here in this area through events and programming, such as hiking, happy hours, networking, or a speaker series. We throw over 100 events a year for our 6,000 members." }, { "speaker": "Kevin Wong", "speech": "If you’d like to learn more, join us, or partner with us, do come find us over at the registration table. Thank you guys. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Wonderful. Thank you so much. I’d like to start this conversation with the same question I asked the audience. Why the SDGs? Why are they important?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It used to be that when I explained about the work that I do in the cabinet, I have to use very difficult words, like collaborative governance, or whatever. Whoever know what that means? Or evidence-based feedback mechanisms and crowdsourcing of ideas, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These words just mean very different things to many different people. It’s very difficult to actually get the idea across that we’re not just running a questionnaire. We’re not just throwing out some surveys." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re actually radically changing how the different sectors access the innovation, the people. Nowadays, with the SDGs, I can just say, “I’m working 17.18, 17.17, and 17.6,” and then it’s just easy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then people can just look at the targets, the indicators, and basically go on this wonderful website, which is the SDG Network, and see exactly where, how, and which countries are working on which SDGs, and how they have been meeting the goals, or helping each other to meet the goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For me, first and foremost, it makes a common language, common vocabulary, of people like me who are doing these kind of work, but introduce it in an international context in a way that is accessible to everyone, and everyone agree that these kind of goals doesn’t cancel each other out. It just reinforce each other, all the 17." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I think you just pointed out the interdependence of these goals. We cannot achieve just SDG 1, just SDG 2. We need to achieve the 17 of these goals. These are the 17 sustainable development goals, and each of the 169 targets, as you mentioned very well." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "What is the role of youth in all this? Do we have a role as young people in the implementation of the SDGs?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Considering that we’ll be around, more likely, in 2030..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...I think we’re an important stakeholder group. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, I think young people naturally, we live in the connected world. I’m, I think, the last generation in Taiwan who remember the martial law, the last generation who remember before the modem, before the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People younger than me are all digital natives, essentially, and democracy natives in Taiwan. People raised in that environment naturally think in a way that is collaborative, that are not by itself a singular, linear progression of economic achievement only, or whatever other older philosophies of the last century and the industrial era." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This indeed is the spirit of the sustainable goals. These are not done by just a bunch of people. They are done by consulting millions of people around the world, around the globe, in a very open fashion. Around, I think, a million people answered the question, what is the kind of world you would like to see in 2030?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, the major groups, the different stakeholder groups, eventually coalesced into those 17 different struts that, as you said very well, reinforce each other. I think that young people naturally, when we’re digital natives, we get the idea that there is this system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is wholly, you cannot attack it just by one another angle or another angle. You have to make it in a way that is really collaborative. That kind of thinking, I think, is native to people who are born with the World Wide Web, are born with this idea that knowledge is in Wikipedia or in a network-like formation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s up to us young people to show everybody in the world how it is like to organize our actions and organize our knowledge in such a way that is inherently networked, instead of linear, bureaucratic, or top-down." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I believe these networks can help them, groups acting locally, as you were saying, would have then an international influence, because of whatever’s happening in Taiwan, whatever’s happening in any other place. It really can impact what’s..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the main distinction, idea, is that whereas maybe one person feeling that climate change is really important, and it can affect the way they live, and things like that, they may be in a larger country, where there’s a larger landmass, and they’re just part of a smaller group of people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea of SDGs, if you join the channel as a team, and then you get interface with all the people who think that this is a priority, this is important. You get to join the major groups, all the different networks around that particular goal, so that you never feel alone in your country or neighborhood in caring about such issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This applies equally to any of those 17 goals." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Also, that goes within the concept of sustainable development. A lot of times, when we think about sustainable development, we just think of the environment. Almost automatically, that’s the initial relation that we do." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "It also involves society. It also involves economies, growth, economic growth, with social possibility, and of course, preserving the environment. These three parts are very interconnected in each of the goals." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "As you said very well, someone might be interested in SDG 1, but you can collaborate with someone who’s interested in SDG 2. What do you think are the values that youth leadership brings, that young people bring?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "You said this idea of the technology, that we’re going to explore in-depth. What else do those young leaders bring to the table?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, I think we’re simply more naive. We don’t have this indoctrinated idea of what works and what doesn’t work. Indeed, these emergent issues are so complex that nobody can say that they know it has always worked like this for a thousand years, or continued to work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Especially around climate change, it doesn’t work like that. Again, all these systems are so complex nowadays that I think it just only makes sense to try out novel approaches, to get some organized action, and maybe fail spectacularly and openly, and let everybody learn from each other’s experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have more room to try. We have less preconfigured ideas of how things can work. Therefore, the partnership for the goals is more likely for people who have no preconceptions of how to solve such ambitious goal." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Absolutely. Also, we were mentioning, we’re going to be around for the next 23 years, so we better take care for what’s happening, for the actions that we’re taking right now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll also allow other people to remain around." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "That’s quite important. Let’s focus on technology, since we have a technological expert here. How can technology shape the completion of the SDGs, and specifically, what is Taiwan doing in this regard?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. Before I delve into these visuals, I would like to invite all of you who have Internet connectivity on your phone, on your laptop, or whatever to join us in conversation in this website. It’s called slido.com, S-L-I-D-O-dot-com." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you’re on this website, you can enter the numbers, 00921, without the pound sign, and click join. Once you’re in this platform, this is an anonymous chatroom. You can declare your nickname or your real name, but you can also ask questions anonymously." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve found that the best questions are the ones that are asked anonymously, the most challenging ones. Also, you can upvote each other’s questions. Isabel, we were just talking about this, we would strongly prefer if you, after your question, put a small parenthesis and indicate the number of which SDG goal your question relates to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, if you want to ask about education, you can say (4). If you forget which number stands for what, you can look it up there. [laughs] Basically, the design here is that as I go on in my presentation, you can just have conversation among yourselves here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There we go. Of the 17 goals, what do you see as the top or the most urgent priority of Taiwan? For each and every question that’s upvoted here, I will occasionally revisit and highlight one of these questions, and then just let you crowdsource via the chat app. Does that work for you?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Absolutely. I think it’s a great idea that you are posting questions from apps. We can resolve them later on. Then you said there were already some question to already get started?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Let me just quickly say we’re supporting the SDGs in my capacity as the digital minister just by building available data sharing, reliable data, encouraging friendly partnerships, and make sure everybody has access to innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those are very abstract words, so I will just show you some pretty pictures. Here is my office in Taipei City, in what we call the Social Innovation Lab. This space is unique in that it is co-created by a hundred or so social innovators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These soccer fields were drawn by people with Down’s syndrome. It turns out, they are excellent artists, better than I am. Basically, the idea here is that this is a space co-created, co-owned, by all the different people working on social innovation, on using technology and new configurations for social good. It opens until 11:00 PM every day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every Wednesday, I’m here. It’s my office hour from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. Anyone can come to talk to me, like rough speakers, or people working on social work, and whatever. My only requirement is that a conversation with me publish its full transcript online 10 days after each meeting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the idea of what we call radical transparency. The reason why radical transparency helps sustainable development is that it enables people to see, instead of...People working on environmental issues sometimes see people working on economic development as somewhat opposing their values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can use many other examples as well. It used to be that the different government agencies are like the knots here in the two sides of a rope. For example, the Ministry of Environment and the Ministry of Economy. They talk to different stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The government imagined itself in the last century as the organizer and as the arbiter of the different social interests. That model, as we talked about, is bankrupt as of this century, because people don’t need to wait for the government to organize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just with the right hashtag, tens of thousands of people can just organize among themselves. With all the emerging issues, it’s impossible to have one ministry and one agency for each one, anyway. We change our world to be that open space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Inside the space, we keep asking, even the different positions, are there common values that is shared by people? More and more, the SDGs are the common values that are shared by people, regardless of whether they come from an environmental, business, or a governance, or a social starting point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Given the common interest and common value, the next thing is to ask for innovations. What are some ideas that can improve those common values without leaving anyone behind? The radical transparency helps, because it lets people discover what other people are also there, solving the same social and environmental issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know, for example, every other Tuesday to the rural areas, to the indigenous areas, to talk with the people there, and also teleconference with people working more in Greenland with the 12 different ministries related to social innovation who are on the right-hand side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They visit every couple Tuesday to the Social Innovation Lab in this large room through my eyes, through telepresence, see what it is like in the rural islands, in the indigenous areas, in the different parts of society, what kind of innovation they are now creating, what kind of innovation they need." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we hear about innovation, it actually solves their local issues. We just index them using SDGs, and ask everybody working on some problem to join forces together so that they can discover each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s mutual discoverability just by the way of the digital communication pools and natural tendency to keep a complete report. We just publish online. I think it’s one of the most powerful way we can do to share how is it like socially, how is it like environmentally, and how is it like, of how people feel about things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without getting into too much detail, basically, I think digital has the potential to represent each stakeholder as they were staking their case, as they were talking about their innovation, and so on, without waiting for people to represent them, their representatives." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Wonderful. What can you say of the young people that we have here? How can they get involved in these issues or support these initiatives?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have lots of interesting people. For example, these are from the MIT Media Lab people. They just came to our Social Innovation Lab saying, “We have these self-driving autonomous vehicles that happens to be transports.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They say, “They’re very safe. Even if they run into buildings, they drive very slowly.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What they want is basically, they have a same right of road as a pedestrian. They’re seen as mostly harmless when mingling with people, and these kinds of new issues of things. Then people want to know what does the city, the citizens, the society, the people in the Jianguo flower market, receive these new AI beings?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How do we co-domesticate each other? How do we have a view of how they view the world? How do they express emotions, intention, and things like that? Just by creating a field for this kind of experimentation, any of your innovation has the chance to improve in a social way to be a social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Meaning that it solves a real social problem. Maybe it solved the problem of the elderly going to Jianguo flower market, buying a lot of pots of flowers, and they really need something to carry it for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the end of it, they can also hop on it, and it will just drive them home. [laughs] It will just go somewhere else. Or it can also crowdsource, for example, from the nearby college students in the hackathons and so on. Some people painted faces. Some people painted, using AR, VR technology, let people enter into the world of these beings, and see the world from their perspective." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it is for the people and with the people at the same time, so that when we create spaces like this, and you are working on any sort of innovation, you are all very much welcome to test in this field, so we can learn together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, find out which social issue, environmental issues, that this is solving. Again, back to the idea of SDGs, to find the potential stakeholders that can add value to your projects." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Everyone that’s here that is related to technology, you take note of this. One of the questions regarding this around technology is that, obviously, Social Innovation. How many other initiatives are within this realm, and what are these objects in the short, medium, and long term?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The plan that I’m in charge of is called...Wow, there’s 11 questions already. Wow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How many people are really active? The plan that I’m in charge with is called the Taiwan Social Innovation Action Plan. This is actually a different plan, compared to our voluntary national report, or our Sustainable Development Council." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deputy Minister Thomas Chan talked about our National Sustainable Development Network, which is more about our commitment as a government to the goals. For example, shifting to renewable energy. For example, making sure that K-12 education, broadband access is available to all, and those very infrastructure things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Social Innovation Plan, on the other hand, is all about amplifying the messages of the sustainability development work in the civil society, of the co-ops, of the nonprofits, of the companies, of all the different parts of the social sector that are nevertheless contributing to sustainable development without having the government mandating them doing it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Government’s relationship with the community in the Social Innovation Plan is rather that of a platform, to amplify the message, and find the venture philanthropy people, the impact investment people, other people solving and tackling these issues worldwide and so on, viewing our connections." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our main idea so far is basically to, for example, we changed the company act so that a company used to be only for-profit in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Starting this year, they can declare their social and environmental purpose, write it in the company charter, publish the company charter using electronic signatures, and to list themselves among the registries of either benefit corporations, social enterprises, Yunus-style social businesses or whatever, and discover each other, and that’s focusing on the same social and environmental issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, our role in the Social Innovation Plan is threefold. First, using SDG as the common index. Second, in the basic and higher education, make sure they use the capstone projects and so on. Student learn to solve those sustainable development as part of their education instead of waiting until they graduate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, working with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to amplify the messages of our domestic social innovation people, and then amplify this through the SDG channels worldwide." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Can you give us some examples of this particular social innovation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have already talked about this self-driving stuff, but I will use another example that is less self-driving. First, I would like to honor the longstanding tradition of the people working on sustainable development and social innovation even before these loanwords were important to the Taiwan vocabulary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’ve been doing this for sometimes 20 or 30 years now, sometimes even before the lifting of the martial law, in the forms as co-ops, or as the foundations, nonprofits, or as companies. I want to honor them, because the young people who started working on social innovation, tackling, for example, business about equality of access, of people maybe in wheelchairs with disabilities, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to make a living in Taiwan. There’s many young designers in Taiwan who work in the Social Innovation Lab, just transforming how the society perceives these people in wheelchairs. All the visual assets you see here are done by this design creative agency called Agoood, in conjunction with people with Down’s syndrome in the Children’s Arts Foundation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It turns out they are excellent artists. I don’t know whether you know the “Dialogue in the Dark.” It is a kind of conversation in the dark, facilitated with people with seeing the disabilities. They are actually the the superior, the alpha in that environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After a few hours, we will feel very comfortable. They feel very confident. These kind of social design people just look systematically at each vulnerable population, and try to find a way to turn them into office in their place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people, street vendors in wheelchairs, they did an analysis saying, I will just translate really quickly, that people don’t buy from them mostly, because first, they don’t have a business proposal or a pitch." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People don’t know how the money will flow. Also, their customer relationship is repetitive. If they keep telling you the same thing, maybe you will not buy from them the next time. Finally, the goods that they carry, the supply chain management is also not that great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Compared to a grocery store or whatever, they don’t carry a price advantage. Then they start working with all the different people working in different SDGs, and to combine into partnerships by getting a better training, a better relationship management, and by just changing the wheelchair into a mobile station." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then by working with the city, for example, on fair trade coffee or fair trade tea, or things like that, to help them to differentiate their product. The most interesting thing, of course, is that they did this as a crowdfunding campaign that is actually a crowdsourcing campaign." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All they have is the sketch of a mobile station. They’re waiting on one of the national crowdfunding campaigns. They set a goal, very quickly exceeded the goal. Once you donate something into the crowdfunding campaign, you don’t want to see it fail." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is actually a crowdsourcing campaign, where people just offered ideas like these people, they can also be WiFi stations. If your phone runs out of electricity, they can quickly charge for you, while getting some fair trade coffee." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, when it rains, people will notice that there’s some place for foldable umbrella there. Maybe they could be umbrella station, and so on. Just by even crowdsourcing in this way, people start to think of them as valuable business development partners, start to think of them as last mile service delivery partners." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Lo and behold, people don’t think of them as vulnerable people anymore. People start to integrate them into the society in this equal opportunity access. That, I think, is one of the main idea of reduce inequalities, is just to not see them as always vulnerable, but rather in a way that just reintroduce into the society in a very valuable position." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Really? That’s really empowering the people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the idea behind it." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Absolutely. One question that you should be concerned with this is that these advances are usually gathered, or are usually taking place, in a specific city or in the capital. Usually, they don’t take place in rural areas, let’s say. It’s harder to get those." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Now, you said that it was important to incorporate other cities, other rural areas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. We just go to other people in other rural areas." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "What efforts are you doing in order to expand the Social Innovation Lab?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Social Innovation Lab, in essence, it used to be the Taiwan Air Force Base. Basically, people just come here and gather. Because every Wednesday, I’m here, they just propose that we change the place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is very much an evolving place, because it has to be open until midnight, and so it does. People wanted a kitchen, a resident chef, so we have a resident chef. It is unlike many other government-run incubation spaces or “maker spaces.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Really, it is truly something that’s co-created with the community. We have an SOP, a standard operation procedure, of how to do co-creation now. Starting next year, we are working deliberately with people in the counties of maybe 50k to 100k of population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Start revitalizing their places that has maybe the same area, but there was just no culture, to revitalize that as a gathering place of the social innovators locally. We want to aim for that as part of the Regional Revitalization Plan, called 地方創生." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This kind of gathering place is one of the key areas where we get the local people to have its own identity, its own gathering place, and for the young people there to have a safe, equal space to explore their different machinations for their community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We expect to have dozens, if not more, of these social innovation lab starting next year to gradually roll out in all the different counties." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "A lot of times, as you just pointed out, the SDG implementation has to happen at all levels, and especially at the local level, community level, and the city level. How can cities play a role in implementations? Of course, those smart cities sometimes helps out. What is the role that cities can play?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, when I hear smart city, I just think cities as a living lab. They have the critical mass of people, and they have usually higher connectivity than townships and so on, or rural areas. When people come up with an idea, they usually can find people more sympathizing with your radically new invention or innovation in the city level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we have this home rule idea of the city gets to make their own policies, regulations, as long as the national regulation does not override them. Nowadays, we’re working with the legislators here to introduce a series of sandbox regulations and laws that allows the cities to make exceptions in order to further a social good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, this January, we have a platform economy regulation that allows cities to experiment, for example, shared parking spaces in our private parking lots. You can just use a single gadget with an app, and then it turns into a part-time parking lot to solve the parking issue, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a platform economy. For a think tank, for example, we have a lot of people working on distributed ledgers and things like that to introduce, for example, a community currency for time banks. These are all very hip ideas in Taiwan that may or may not break some laws." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we’ve convinced the Minister of Finance that anyone can apply for a year of experimentation to prove the worth of their idea to the entire society while breaking some laws." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a systematic, risked-apt way of lawbreaking. Finally, at the end of this year, we expect to pass the UV sandbox, which again, is by conjunction with a local need. Some places really need a ship that doubles as a car. Some places really need vertical takeoff and landing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, it’s the first UV sandbox law in the world, I think, that does distinguish between the different modalities. People can just experiment for a year. If the society thinks it’s a good idea locally in the city, then they can expand out, and we can make the regulation apply to the entire country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s not a good idea, where we think the experiment were not for the benefit for everyone, then next time, just try a different approach. If it’s a good idea, it gets to expand itself in this model for the second year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, if it’s just a regulation change that you’re proposing -- a patch, a fork, an amendment -- that you’re trying to sandbox, we just change after 60 days of public debate. It requires a law change. The legislator here may need more time to deliberate. The experiments, by our design, can stand to up to four years, while the legislators are debating it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can continue to use the living lab in the city, and once it continue to accumulate more data, sharing more best cases, best practice examples, and so on, with other cities, and once the legislators think, “OK, this is generally for the good of the people,” then law will change, and a new kind of service will be born." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Other cities, other counties, and so on can enjoy the parts of the sandbox that emerge to be really for the social good, and also not to go prematurely into some hyped new technology that is nevertheless to the detriment to the environment or society." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Truly, cities are laboratories for living experiments. I think that’s quite an important idea. What are the priorities of the SDG implementations for Taiwan in the next years? Are there ones, SDGs that are more urgent? We say that often..." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Are there any priorities for the SDGs?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. That’s a Slido question. Personally, I’m partial. You already know my answers, right? [laughs] I think that’s because in Taiwan at the moment, because we’re experimenting with a lot of new democratic forums, we’re going to have the first meaningful referendums at the end of this year. We have e-petition. We have participatory budgeting. We have all sorts of new democratic inventions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a result of that, the collaboration or partnership between sectors is somewhat, there’s some tension in people just introducing referendums, and introducing all sort of different ideas without properly translating or collaborating across sectors, across ideologies, across counties and cities to introduce their ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people to see that it is possible to join forces, to find common ground, to find common value. The partnership for the goals, using the same evidence, the same data, I think that is one of the most important, if not the most important, goal in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just going to use one concrete example, otherwise I’m talking with too much layers, too many layers of abstract opinion. Sorry, I keep coming back to the Occupy parliament, but that’s not what I want to talk about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I want to talk about this idea of people really caring about air quality. They set up all these very inexpensive air boxes in their homes, in their schools, in their balconies, to measure PM2.5 and other important air quality metric." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They did this without involvement of government. They just gathered around, did it themselves. There’s more than 2,000 such sensors of air and various water quality as part of civic designs. First, it shows to us that people really care about it a lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second, it creates a legitimacy crisis. When the Environmental Protection Agency’s number are different from the number that you personally have set up, even though the equipment there is not as precise as the EPA one, people are going to trust their own numbers, rather than the EPA numbers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have lots of theories of how human activity corresponds to air quality. Not all professors agree on each other’s theories. Sometimes, some of them have more prediction power. We don’t know if that’s because whether the data they use are better or whether the models they use are better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We cannot really do science without the enhanced availability of reliable data. One of the main thing we did this year is to set up what we call the Civil IoT Project. I’m sorry that this hasn’t been translated into English yet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have one website for each major cross-ministerial project, with SI for social innovation, CI Taiwan for Civil IoT, AI Taiwan, Bio Taiwan, Smart Taiwan, and so on. They all share taiwan.gov.tw as the postfix." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Civil IoT, what we do is international super community center, provide the room for the data aggregation of all the different sources of environmental data, of air quality meteorology, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have spent a lot of time to make sure that all these data are in an available form, using the internationally common standards, such as SensorThings, and to make sure that anyone who would want to do analysis can just upload their code to this National Center for High-performance Computing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can just be a K-12 student. They can just be a junior high school student, and they still have the same access to analyze how people’s activities correlate into environmental issues and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with the same data that everybody can agree upon, we can finally start to have a real conversation around policies, around economic activity, around education for climate change, and things like that. This common evidence base, I think, is required for Taiwan in our current stage of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In order to move forward, we have to have the same evidence, the same facts, before sharing our feelings." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Also, you want to be able to use this common language, for everyone?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right, yes." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "So everyone can apply to and aspire to. I think it’s also quite important, first of all, is to know what is the background of some of the people here? Maybe we can address some of the questions that they have for different sectors, and how those can interrelate to technology, how they can interrelate with social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Let’s go a little bit. Let’s see, for instance, who is business here, the business sector? All right, nice. What about law, how many lawyers are out? Good. Do we have any artists? I’m a pianist, so I’m biased up here. OK, good. Wonderful." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Do we have anyone in the technology sector? We were talking about technology. OK, some people. Science?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Teachers." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Teachers, there we go, education. Very important for SDG 4. There we go, guys. Thank you for it. What else? What other backgrounds we have here?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Philosophy?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Extremely important. As you can see, the SDGs are relevant for any of the occupations that we have, for any of the backgrounds that we have. One of the keys, I think I’m going to say, is this collaboration with different sectors, and the partnership for the goals, which is SDG 17." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "It’s quite important for the effective implementation of the SDGs. Let’s go to some of the audience questions now. Let’s see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How would technology benefit the poor, who have relatively little access to it? This is very important, because I worked with Apple for six years before joining the government, or working with the Taiwan government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, the idea of technology as assistive, or as I work in the government, assistive civic technology, I think, is a very different viewpoint from many other people’s idea of technology as a linear progression kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For us, the best technology are not the ones that are most trendy, or most hyped, or things like that, but rather technologies that are created with the stakeholders, with the people. Last week, I was just in Edinburgh, attending the Social Enterprise World Forum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I moderated this Tech For Good panel, where we invite people working in the poorest areas. I think one of my speakers from Botswana, working on hearing aid for people with hearing disabilities. They co-designed these hearing aid with people there, according to their need, according to their actual place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the first product they delivered was called Solar. It’s Solar, because over there, they get a lot of sunlight. Instead of many other hearing aid, which sells for a price, but the battery is going to cost much more over a long time, they just built a rechargeable one, just using solar energy, and basically make it as low intense as possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They make sure that the people there are educated in basic electronics. Not just in how to assemble these things, but actually the theories behind it, so that they can do the modification themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s where empowered person who drew this design here found that it’s because they’ve been using sign language all their life, their hand-eye coordination is better than 99 percent of us, of us, of other people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can assemble, tweak, and hack the electronics in a very creative fashion to just fit their actual use. Then they translated this electronics course that’s a six-month course from sign language in Africa into sign language in Brazil, and brought these into São Paulo and to do sign language with a transcript and knowledge, so that they can do a different build of the Solar ear data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then eventually, around the world. Basically, when we think about inequality, about people, it’s not just about giving them the right technology to lift them out of their situation, but also empower them so they also feel that, “Well, I can be the future of electronics using sign language. That’s something unique to me.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People who don’t have these kind of conditions, this kind of life experience, cannot teach other people with the same life conditions. I think that just empowerment through civic assistive technologies is one of the best answer for us working in the tech sector to answer for people who are living in less advantaged areas." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Wonderful. Let’s go to the next one, then. Biggest strength and weakness?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In terms of industry development and empowerment, I think that the strengths, really, is in our geography. As I talk about in this shape, we can see that from the north-most to the south-most of Taiwan, it’s relatively compact for an island of 23 million people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The travel using high speed rails is just an hour and a half or so. It is basically a geography of a larger municipal area, but with a critical mass of a lot of people along that coast. I think this creates a unique situation, where for example, what Dr. Tsai Ing-wen said, her campaign platform, one of them is broadband is human right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many other presidents say that, but in Taiwan, we actually deliver. Now, this year, if in any of these points, you don’t have a broadband connection, it is our fault. Broadband really is a human right in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is partly because of geography, but also because we really care about really reduce the inequalities whenever there’s new technology, like AI, distributed ledger, or whatever we introduce. We take meticulous efforts to make sure that everybody everywhere in Taiwan in the K-12 education level get the same access to the same tools to the same empowerment of technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that kind of emphasis on equality, on equal opportunity, is one of the strongest things that Taiwan has to offer in addition to the previous incentives that has been going on for decades. It’s also something that we also export to many of our allies in friendly countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan can really learn from the entrepreneurship culture here in that maybe people’s expectation of what constitutes risk is very different. In Taiwan, when people go to entrepreneurship, sometimes their parents expect them to have a higher than 50 percent of chance of succeeding before consenting them into doing entrepreneurship, social or otherwise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, here, five percent is pretty high. [laughs] Generally, the risk-averse culture, I think, is our largest weakness. That is also what we’re now fixing using, for example, the Asia Silicon Valley Plan, which basically we just introduce all these spectacular failures, but also the lessons they learned." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Feeding back into the ecosystem to make sure people see that with software nowadays, and with the open hardware, open innovation toolkit, the cost of failing is not as high as 30 years ago, 50 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK for young people to “fail” -- actually, good -- for four or five times before they settle on a product-market fit, on a mission fit with the society. Just by managing the expectation of their parents’ generation, we now show that it’s OK to risk, and it’s OK to fail." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The ecosystem will actually appreciate their contribution, even they enter a sandbox, and after one year, found it’s not a good match. That is not something that loses them face, so to speak. It is actually something that increase the face, the reputation, of the person." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Actually, what other advice do you have for young people here, to become social entrepreneurs? One of them don’t be afraid, right? Businesses, you might fail once." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You might fail five times." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Or five." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "What are the other advices that you would give young people here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other thing I think is very important is to be humble and listen to the stakeholders. All the different Tech For Good social entrepreneurs, be it in Edinburgh, or back in Taiwan, when I personally coach the different cohorts that we bring from the Social Innovation Lab, everybody who had an idea of how to save these people just failed spectacularly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People who are just there to listen, to be stupid, to be educated by the people, they all succeeded. They made very good friends, at least with these people. I think my main advice is just to be humble, and to live and listen, and just be with the people you think you are helping." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Most of the time, they will help you more, but at least you will become a more complete person, just by living and listening to them." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "We must always focus on that mission, never lose that mission..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "...that you had at the beginning. It doesn’t matter what failures that you might have. Always persevere for that mission. Let’s go to the next one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s 17. In the context that the PRC is still influential in APAC, how does Taiwan cooperate with members of the ASEAN alliance and other neighbors on SDG goals? Very happily. Basically, I would like to talk about another, which is the digital innovation idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have this idea of what we call the presidential hackathon. I’m trying to open a page. It may or may not actually open. This is a hackathon in the sense of people not sleeping for a couple days or three days, but rather a very long journey of three months." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a president social innovation hackathon. There’s an English version as well, but it’s not loading. Anyway, the idea, very simply put, is that you can look at each and every of the SDG goals that was promised by the original presidential campaign of Dr. Tsai Ing-wen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can say, “Hey, I can do better,” propose a pitch, and form a cross-sectoral alliance to use data, use technology, or use any of those cutting edge things to make the society better. The winning teams get a trophy and no monetary award." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All their award is that we promise to integrate your idea into the mainstream public service next year. The president’s office will personally be the PM for your idea, to integrate your idea back into the public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everyone is in it for social impact, environmental impact. Nobody’s in it for the prize money, although the trophy is very beautiful as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, one of the winning teams I want to highlight is from the Taiwan Water Corporation. What their proposal is, basically, they have a lot of water pipes. Actually, they manage the longest water pipe in the world for water operations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Most of them are leaking without them knowing or know it. They have a team of people who just go around Taiwan every year, have a tour of Taiwan, and listen using these kind of amplifying devices of where the water pipes are leaking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is difficult and trivial. It’s that type of work. It’s difficult in that it requires local training, but it’s trivial in the sense that most of the time, you’re just listening if there’s leaks. How about we save these people’s time by using machine learning to predict which, using the basic tools of water pressure and water flow analysis, how likely there is for a leak to happen?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After three months of collaboration with machine learning experts, they developed an algorithm that are like a machine apprentice to those masters. People can save to one-tenth of their time. It used to be they’d have to spend 10 months. Now, they only have to spend one month to find the top leaking points in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this radically time-saving technology for them, they now actually have extra people. One of the good thing about labeling these as social innovation with the SDGs is that they get discovered by other countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People in New Zealand said, “Hey, we have an accelerator program, and we discovered that you’re doing this. We didn’t used to suffer from water shortage, but now we do, because of climate change. Why don’t you come to our accelerator program for three more months, and then we just provide all the basic water data?”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, they’re still in New Zealand, solving the water leakage problem for them. This kind of trust is a long-term trust. It takes a lot of trust in one another to handle, specify ideas-based datas to the Taiwan Water Corporation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, the Taiwan Water Corporation have to trust across the sectors for the people versed in machine learning to come and help alleviate their problems and solve their challenges. It’s more trust all around. The longer this kind of collaboration goes, the better the trust gets from people from all the different sides of the Pacific, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by having these kind of cross-sectoral collaboration, by publishing very loudly in English the winning entries by index, and then with the SDGs, we naturally form collaboration and coalitions with people suffering from the same sort of environmental issues, and can contribute to our innovation consulting." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Yeah, and also replicating the solution worldwide. It definitely is knowledge sharing, is knowing from each other, learning..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s entirely right." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "That’s extremely, extremely important. Sometimes, it’s not so well-known that these solutions can be helpful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. We have a word for it. It’s called 暖實力. It’s called warm power. Instead of hard and soft power, sharp power, or whatever, we would call this warm power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It may take a while to warm up, but once it’s warmed up, it can really help the people across the very different backgrounds, cultural, and ethnic situations to really feel empathy with each other. That, I think, is key to democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Has any country done a good job so far empowering their youth in participating and driving the SDGs? I think this is more of an Isabel question. [laughs] Which country do would you like to highlight?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I think we’re experiencing at the SDG implementation a new relevance of youth. This is quite important, because we had the MDGs before. One thing that in which I think the SDGs excels in is involvement in youth, and you talked about these surveys that we’re taking worldwide about what are the most important issues?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "That’s specifically for youth, which I think was great, I agree with that. I think the implementation of the SDGs, the 2030 Agenda, it definitely incorporates youth. All the countries are trying to deliver this, incorporating youth. That’s extremely good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. I would also like to highlight the important work that our youth councilors, the youth advisor group to the administration, is doing. The website may take a while. In this demonstration, this is the first time that we have an administration level above all the different ministries board of young people who advise the premiere and the ministers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these 35 people are remarkably broad in what they care about, in what they propose, and what they advise us to do. I would also like to highlight the fact that most of their ideas are drawn from the common SDG vocabulary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many of their proposals explicitly listed the UN resolutions around SDGs, around the rise of the young people, and so on. This is not just about their personal self-interest. This is actually about culture, about international diplomacy, about empowerment, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have too much time to go into their proposal details, but I think it is very good that we have a very mature way for young people to participate in a systematic way, the national policy forming and policy building, and have a radically transparent record of their proposals, and how they get integrated into mainstream policymaking and politics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think because we are going to have a mayoral election at the end of this year, many of the mayoral candidates and so on are now promising a very similar structure in their cities as well. They’ll be conforming more nuanced way for the national policy to impact the people in the cities, instead of just waiting for the national councilors to voice for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The young people in the local city can also voice their concern in a peer-to-peer fashion instead of in the old hierarchical power kind of way. I think this is also very important that young people are used to working in this kind of networked, peer-to-peer way, as opposed to national, city level, precinct level, this kind of way." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Usually, when it’s cities that young people have several careers and access in politics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "That should be a big concern of young people. Sometimes, one of the main proposals with youth councils is more access to politics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "It’s not just at the regional level, but it’s also at the local level. They can have their voice raised." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We definitely hope that more cities after this election adopt this same dashboard, which is open source, anyway, so they can take it and run with it. The idea is that they can show very clearly which proposal from the youth council actually gets implemented, what gets implemented partially, what time that it gets implemented." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s already three proposals related SDGs at the moment that I can see here. For the more futuristic, speculative part of it, at least there could be an ongoing discussion with people who propose it. I’m looking the unconditional universal basic income." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, even for the UBI, having this kind of dashboard allows the policymakers, who evaluate the economic feasibility, the social acceptance, and things like that, to have an ongoing discussion in the social object that is this proposal, rather than just people reading it through the news and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have all the people interested in UBI, knowing that it probably won’t get implemented next year, but they can still come to the Social Innovation Lab and host events, and amplify their regional impact." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Nice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s really, really quite a party. [laughs] Let me see if I can get one of those pictures of people partying in the Social Innovation Lab. That’s the opening. That’s not quite a party. The party is right afterward." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s one like it. Basically, you can see if you are anyone working on social innovation, and you can declare which SDG and which target you are working, then this lab is free of charge for your event. If you cannot, you cannot even pay to get access." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is how we work with everyone to SDG-ize their activities. Then so we have thousands of events and activities, many of them concurrently, at the same time. They did not know that their vertical, actually caring about the same thing as they do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They came, then they met people, and then they formed youthful collaborations and so on, just by virtue of them showing up. This is any typical weekday or weekend in the Social Innovation Lab. It’s just maybe five or more events concurrently happening, each of them SDG-indexed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then they can see which bills that are in collaboration or in conjunction with their projects." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "That’s also one of the key goals today, also, that you meet other people from other fields. You see that there’s these common goals, these common sustainable development goals, which you can incorporate, in which you can share knowledge." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Definitely, there’s a sort of structure around that, that you also know other people that have the same interest in doing the SDGs. What do you think we can do as New Yorkers?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To contribute to SDG? This is also part of the Isabel question." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Oh, here, too. It’s almost like you’re anticipating these quetions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think personally, just SDG index your work is very important. Just use the hashtag. Many a time, I just see people hashtag SDG 17, and then just discover like-minded people. It is like a virtual chatroom." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can use the hashtag anywhere, in Twitter, in Facebook, in any of those areas, and you will just discover people caring about the same thing as you do. If you’re interested in one particular SDG, I would highly encourage you to read into the targets and indicators, and also the policy context in which they formed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is where the real deal is. The 17 is really just a memorization device. The actual deal is in the particular goals, particular indicators, and in voluntary national reports. Because here is New York, I would also encourage you to read your voluntary regional report, the voluntary local report that NY specifically wrote for NY itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which may have different ideas and educators as compared to the federal one. I don’t know. In Taiwan, we also have the BNR, of course, and people can participate in it using e-participation or through face-to-face deliberation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I mentioned, the Regional Recultivation Project is essentially doing an SDG-like ideation consultation mechanism in each town, actually. We also want to know how each town imagine things differently from our voluntary national report." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re in Taiwan, I would highly recommend you to just find your nearby news deliberation space, and just participate in the regional revitalization dialogue, which is taking place every couple weeks." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Actually, you were talking about hashtags. Do we have a hashtag for this event, an official hashtag? I encourage all of you to tweet, of course. We know we’re the generation of technology, so we should use it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Therefore making sure that what we are talking about here doesn’t stay here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "All right, so, let’s go to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next one." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "...is the ideal state of what technology can do. Curious to learn about your view on the opposite end of what social tech can do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s good you didn’t pronounce that F-word. I don’t use that word, either." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s an affront to journalism. Both of my parents are journalists, so I don’t use that word. I use misinformation when it’s unintentional. I say disinformation when it’s intentional. That word is just very, very confusing, and it’s not operational definition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whether it’s disinformation or misinformation, it’s the reality of our time. I would like to share with you how Taiwan deals with disinformation. Taiwan is very unique in that if you go to the Civicus monitor -- I’m certainly not singling out any other country -- we will see that in the Civicus monitor, if you click Asia, and if you click fully open, then the only thing you see is Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not saying that our civic space of expression, of assembly, of freedom -- why is this not showing up? -- but of speech is the best in the world. We’re certainly not, as compared to Nordic, or our New Zealand or Australian friends." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In our region, if you go to Civics monitor with a faster Internet connection than I have, click Asia, and click fully open, and then you will see that Taiwan really is the only place that’s very open here. Because of that, we’re constrained in the way that we can use to combat disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We must not sacrifice these very important core freedoms. What we did, actually, is to make sure that in the administration’s front page, there’s a dedicated syndicated feed of all the different clarifications." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s hundreds of them -- actually, a hundred or so every month or so -- so that whenever we detect a systematic disinformation campaign, propaganda, or whatever going on, within hours, like three hours or four hours, the respective agencies write a real-time clarification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the screen we use to read these words are very different from the papers, if you print it on paper, you can balance it physically by having the pro and con, the different angles and so on, showing in the different parts of the paper." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with the Internet, that model doesn’t work anymore. People just take one snapshot of one part of the information, and they just become a virus of the mind, memes that just get spread." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of a physical balance or an on-paper balance, what we are now achieving is a temporal balance, so that whenever people see a disinformation campaign, they learn to wait for a couple hours, and for the clarification to come out from this page." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of just changing this page over and over, people in the civic tech community, they built a lot of very innovative tools. For example, there is this tool called Cofact, which is a g0v project. The Cofact bot essentially is saying anyone can add this Line bot, which is like WhatsApp, as their Line friend." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then whenever you see information that you don’t know whether it’s rumor or not, you can just send it to that bot. That bot will get back with you whether this is actually a rumor, disinformation, or whether it’s true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a fact-checking bot that you can provide for your family channels or whatever, and to have a real conversation with the bot, which basically is how we solved the problem of spam 18 years ago. This is a real, pretty good use for good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are also fact checkers working for the media forum, to Facebook, to various other forums. It can also correct the misinformation coming from the government. It’s not disinformation, where not intentional, but it could be misinformation coming out from the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a healthy independent checker community across all the different modalities that make sure that whenever people see something that could be a disinformation campaign, they learn to wait for a couple hours, then look through all the clarifications and balanced accounts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "“Tech can help to deliver key services, but it can also be inaccessible; age, dollar, disability. How can we use tech to achieve development in a way that includes all?” This is a great question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the best way -- again, I’m maybe repeating myself -- the best way is just do the design with the people yourself. There really is no other way, in my knowledge, other than just living with the people with disabilities and with different age, with different economic background." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, just fuse the ideas, the tech you have, with their life. More often than not, you will have particular insights that informs the development and design of your work that you cannot get just by surveying people who have a similar background as you do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the social innovation, it’s not just tech for good, for good’s sake, but also what we say about inclusion drives innovation, in the sense that people with many different background, even neural networks and things like that, they can see a problem with different angles, and basically co-create solutions that works for all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Key to idea is also what we call open access, open innovation, open source, open hardware, and open data. All these open things means that it doesn’t restrict anyone from looking at the idea, looking at something that’s halfway there, and forking it, taking it into a different direction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To do things for themselves, and maybe just contribute their additions to it. Before Wikipedia, nobody really had a strong intuition on how this works like. Now, we have Wikipedia, and we have many other great open source and open content projects, the Creative Commons, things like that. People can start now. Imagine about, for example, WikiHows, about WikiFarm, agriculture, and things like that, about how to build basic, sustainable living quarters together, using nothing but non-patented, non-patent-encumbered, open source technologies, 3D printing, and very accessible technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is also a really good movement in Taiwan, where people just go back to their more rural, farmland, or agricultural places, but still using cutting edge technology to do ag tech, to do things like that, but in a way that is harmonizing with the land, instead of an industrial area, which is more about exploitation and so on. Sustainable farming and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "You were talking about the educational component. That’s not that one, the next question, but the question after. We’re talking about goal four, and what are your views on how can one’s knowledge can be world-class, can be an inspiration, and can also be very relevant for others?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Particularly here, they’re asking about young Westerners. First of all, we would like to ask you about education in particular. Which initiatives are you going to covering, SDG with them at the primary level, secondary level?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before the joining the cabinet, I served on the K-12 curriculum development board. The new curriculum, which is going to take effect next year, is completely redesigned. It used to be what we call a skill-based education system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like many of our East Asian counterparts, it’s about furthering a particular track, specializing in particular skills, training human resources in particular ways, and also -- maybe inadvertently, but also -- foster individual competition among individuals, which I think is one of great drawbacks for teenagers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very toxic to teenage brains, if you just turn them into individual competitors, but I digress. In any case, yes, in our new vertical, what we’re now doing is what we call character, or 素養-based education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of a particular skill that students identify with, we now identify with the characters of autonomy, of curiosity, etc., and learning of communication, of interacting with people with many different backgrounds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, the common good, which is a character of basically thinking of each other not as transactional or instrumental, but as in themselves, and also form collaborative values. All those basic three dimensions of nine basic characters are now what the examination system, the education system, the whole system is gearing towards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a very different direction, compared to the previous curriculum. In this way, what we’re now introducing to the senior high school level is basically, there could be collective classes. It could be classes that students just want the school to have, and the school can have it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We see more and more senior high schools especially, but also some junior high schools, choosing SDGs as their capstone projects, basically having the student solving a social, environmental, or a sustainable economy issue as their collaborative project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which they will then have to talk with the community, not just the people in school. Their success and their grade basically depends on how well-integrated their ideas and solutions are with the actual environmental and social issue that they are solving." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the university level, this has already been going on for a couple years now, using what we call the University Social Responsibility Program. The university is, just like CSR, responsible for the social environment around that university." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, students complete their undergrad courses by spending a year or two just focused on improving the community around the university. Again, we’re now SDG indexing all the work they’re doing in the USR Project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, if they want to be social entrepreneur, they will start project. Starting next year, they’re K-12 projects." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "I think that’s extremely important, because a lot of times, people are trained theoretically. If they can have the chance, just applying that knowledge and practice. I think it’s extremely important, already what you were saying in high school, that these kids have the chance of applying all that knowledge to their communities. That’s truly great work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just about that particular question, there is now a community called Crossroads. Some people can already know this community. It’s at crossroads.tw. If you are interested in just coming to Taiwan...Yeah, I wrote the endorsement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be entrepreneurship visa, it could be a gold card, public participation, the ARC, and it also links to various other communities, whether you are entrepreneur, whether you are interested in startups, whether you are interested in education, in fun, in the night life, whatever, [laughs] there is a link to the respective community for you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is Crossroads.tw, “Where Taiwan and global communities meet.” I would encourage you to explore all the various subcommunities linked to the Crossroads, and also check whether you want to get in Taiwan using one of our many entrepreneurship and gold card, and very soon, the new economy immigration act. There is bound to be one that fits your profile." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Why should young people go to Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To realize your social impact. As I said, it’s very rare, especially in Asia, to find a place that encourage you to break the law." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Seriously, just look at our regulations, find out the parts that are lacking, and just go to sandbox.org.tw, and a bunch of pro bono lawyers will look at your ideas, and funnel you into the right ministry in order to break the law for the common good. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This really challenges the status quo. Nowadays in Taiwan, we’re seeing this as a good. Once your ideas start to take hold in the Taiwan population, creating really positive social feedback, and having people congratulating you, improving people’s lives, you would not want to leave." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You would want to expand your week, deepen your work, and integrate further into the community. We welcome fresh pairs of eyes, hands, and so on to look at the social and environmental issues, and figure out common solutions to them. 10 more minutes? OK." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "There’s one addressing, will Taiwan be able to retain talent compared to other developing countries?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not fair to compare with developing countries. I think Taiwan is very good at both importing and exporting talent. There is very healthy circulation of talents, because Taiwan, after all, is geography." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "More often than that, people have a good innovation here, use the living labs, the sandbox to test it, and then they find a larger place to scale out their innovation. On the other hand, there’s many places where such innovations cannot happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, if you require the own data access, the large civil society space for collaborative crowdfunding or crowdsourcing projects, they also come to Taiwan to have the space as a ground to further grow their idea that was born elsewhere in the world, but really needs Taiwan to amplify its message." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Both exists, and we see a very healthy flow of talents from and back. I think particularly this year, we’re seeing a lot of AI talents coming back to Taiwan, partly because, of course, the AILabs. Also, Microsoft set up an AI lab of, I think, 100 or 200 people -- Google, IBM, Nvidia, and so on -- they have all set up AI R&D centers in Taiwan this year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a very strong interest in people learning AI as part of their mission in solving the social and environmental issues, as I said, the water pipes or whatever. People just learn about AI by solving real social and environmental issues as part of their learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if AI is not very mature yet, they can only solve five percent, they still feel that they can improve by the society by five percent, instead of an arbitrary test or arbitrary competition, where you really do something, except scoring more than other competitors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think Taiwan is a really good ground if you have an idea and want a fresh pair of eyes to look at it, to improve it in very different angles, to have a living lab to experiment. Then Taiwan will also connect you into the next stage, with series A, series B, or some other stages, where there’s even more ground to scale out the innovation you have reached here in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think Taiwan is the perfect midpoint, which is I put a dot in the Asia Silicon Valley Plan. Taiwan’s the dot that connects Asia, that connects Silicon Valley. It’s not just Silicon Valley technologies solving Asian problems. It’s also Asia solving problems caused by Silicon Valley technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It goes both ways, and Taiwan’s the dot and the hub in between that amplifies solutions, and also honors the people of different traditions that brings their social and common contributions into the mix." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "The next question is about the aging population. I wanted to ask you about this intergenerational dialogue. We started here saying, “Youth, we are the present and the future.” Of course, this is extremely important, youth empowerment." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "We also need to take into account this intergenerational dialogue. Maybe you can offer some insights on how important that is to SDG implementation in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I call my grandma every Sunday. [laughs] We have intergenerational dialogue, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is, I think, one of the more interesting thing is that usually, intergenerational familiarity is formed around ideas that are novel to both newer and older generations. Instead of a social entrepreneurship project, I will use something that is more fun, which is this app called Pokémon Go. Some of you may have heard of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s truly addictive when it first came out. We see in Taiwan a lot of grandparents and grandchildren just using their phones, and just looking for Pokémons everywhere. Somehow, you cannot see, say, or tell whether this is the older generation bringing the younger generation out, or whether it’s the younger generation leading the older generation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This thing, this augmented reality thing, is new to both generations. They both have stories to tell, both have experiences to share, maybe around the location, the memories of how this place was 40 years ago, and the young people about the monuments and whatever things, the manga that they have read." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is also their history and their identity. The middle aged generation can also help by contributing to, for example, driving really slowly, so they can collect as many Pokémons as possible. They have some contributions to this family dialogue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is actually where we drew a lot of inspiration in our original recultivation plan. It’s just to create interesting things, interesting event that are new across all the generations. Everybody feel a need to be there, but without dominating the discussion by having too much experience on anything in particular." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be augmented reality and mixed reality. It could be all those different, new visual, audio presentation forms and things like that that is novel to every one of us. Just like the sustainable development goals, it’s new to every one of us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s new as of 2015 or something. This is where each generation can have meaningful input without dominating the discussion." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "This is fascinating. You say there is this common ground or this common level which all generations, thanks to technology and thanks to the SDGs, can just meet and bring their meaningful experiences." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "One of them this experience, and one is this approach, like, “We are working together, is this a model that really moves the world, and really brings new ideas?” I think that’s really important." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "There are two SDGs that we haven’t talked about, and these are the goal 14 and the goal 15. I would like for you to speak personally on those. I’m very interested in knowing exactly...Well, this question is if the goals are too broad, they could be more focused?" }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "There are 169 targets, too. These are a little bit more specific. That’s where we give a little more particular information on each of them. Let’s focus maybe on the SDG 14 and 15, and technology brought to the implementation phase." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Are there any specific plans that Taiwan is moving in this direction?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. I would like just to introduce this wonderful website that is globalgoals.org, so that when you see “Life below water,” it is actually reduce marine pollution, protect and restore ecosystem, reduce ocean acidification, so on, and so forth. Beautiful icons, you can see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are all very specific. Really, the 14 is just a number to help you remember all these very different and all very important, in their own right, goals. Again, the same for SDG 15. Yeah, I would like to say first that in Taiwan, the reduce marine pollution -- actually, the very first of the SDG 14 -- is on everybody’s mind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, there was this huge popular discussion around plastic straws, and how we plan to reduce and eventually ban the use of them in certain indoor settings around national identity drinks, like the bubble tea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, people are motivated by the SDGs to find innovative solutions. Some of them are really naive, like if you take a spaghetti noodle, you can use it as a straw for a while, for up to two hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It melts away, but it also motivates real innovation, like using agricultural waste products and so on to make into new straws that are nevertheless recyclable, or at least more durable and reusable, and actually leaves little to no carbon footprint." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by identifying those are the goals -- because a goal doesn’t say how you get there -- we can have real social innovation by essentially co-creating \"with\" the people, who just swarm toward all the different solutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be environmental solution of having a better habit, of employee relations or environment, even the technological one, just like manufacturing as well. It could be one that’s sort of on the edge." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s one social entrepreneur in Taiwan working on bartering with people who fish near Taiwan. They fish up a lot of plastic waste. Basically, they turn that into biofuel, and then barter back the biofuel back to dispose." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no money exchanging hands. Basically, they pay the fish boats to not discard the plastic waste that they fish back, and instead, just turn it back into fuel so that they can go on their business, and then do more sustainable fishing, loose sense of sustainability." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is more, you can see here, as part of voluntary national report. I think the environmental sustainability is really on everybody’s mind in Taiwan when it comes to especially the marine population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I say population, I mean biodiversity. In the Taiwan sea area, there is 10 percent of the world’s marine species. There’s huge biodiversity. We see ourselves as just stewards to such populations. Human really is not the one privileged species. We need to coexist with the huge biodiversity." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "You mentioned something also very important. You said habits. The usual habits that one can have are extremely important. Sometimes, we don’t think about those, in a way. Governments can help, but we also, I think, need to remember that we have to adapt too as a society." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "We have to change our habits, and we have to be conscious of the actions that we’re doing, and how they relate to the SDGs at an individual level. I believe we’re reaching the end of this conversation. Now, we have a little bit of networking." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "This part is like what you have in the Social Innovation Lab -- to network, to share ideas, to talk about the SDGs, and how we can all cooperate to make them a reality, and a great opportunity also to know each other, and to learn about what each other is doing." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Thank you so much for this conversation. I think it was truly extraordinary." }, { "speaker": "Isabel Pérez Dobarro", "speech": "Thank you so much to all of you for coming. I hope you have a wonderful time. Thank you so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "問", "speech": "聽完您的演講，語速非常快，不是很多東西都可以理解，但是像剛剛Daniel R. Russel所講的，非常振奮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很高興。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "可以開始了嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "謝謝唐鳳政委給我們這個時間來採訪您，中華民國行政院政委的職務您是不是可以解釋一下？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "政委在以前是叫做「不管部部長」或者是「不管部會之政務委員」，現在就是叫「政務委員」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們目前一共有八個政務委員，如果在特定的議題上，如果有跨部會沒有辦法達到意見一致的地方，或者是有一個新興的議題，不確定哪一個部會要作反應，這個時候就這個政委被賦予的職權，這個政委可以去協調各個不同的部會達到一致的見解，所以我們是院長的幕僚，幫忙在給定的領域上去協調部會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "比較不同的是，大部分的政委都有特定的幾個部會要負責協調的，但是我負責的三個任務，也就是「開放政府」、「社會創新」及「青年參與」這三個，跟所有的部會都有關係，所以我並沒有特定哪幾個部會協調，我跟每一個部會都作協調。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "這一次唐政委來到紐約，正好是聯合大會開會的期間，具體達到什麼目的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我已經在哥倫比亞大學、NYU（紐約大學），今天在Asia Society同一個訊息，就是我身上的這個訊息，也就是「永續發展目標，臺灣可以幫忙」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「臺灣可以幫忙」的程度，其實我覺得因為永續發展的目標是定義一個在環境上、社會上及經濟上都不彼此犧牲的一種方式，這個跟我們臺灣目前發展的方向是完全相同的，我們在臺灣創新是不會leave anyone behind、我們也不是以犧牲環境或者是經濟利益來達到我們的創新，所以剛剛演講所分享的，不管是對於空氣品質、水資源、氣候變遷的所有部分，其實臺灣已經做了長足的發展，但也許我們分享的情況不太多，還有我們在分享的過程中沒有用SDGs來當作索引。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我要分享的是，我們從今年開始接下來四年裡面，我們投入了88億新臺幣，就是要把所有社會上，不管是學校系統或者是私部門系統的社會創新，只要能解決永續發展問題，我們就會有一個永續發展的數字來當作索引，未來就可以跟永續發展目標，在國際上更快、更迅速地合作，而不用經過行政院。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "非常有趣，您剛剛英文最後結束時，對您的職業描述，唸了一首詩來表達，有沒有可能用國語來表達？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想那一首詩是：「當我們看到萬物聯網，我們希望把智慧聯網」；「我們如果看到機器學習，我們希望能協作學習」，也就是人跟機器一起學習，不是只有機器在學習；「當我們看到虛擬實境，我們希望做成共享實境」，就是不是你在你的虛擬世界，我在我的虛擬世界，而是我們共享的世界；「當我們看到用戶體驗時，我們希望能夠改成人際體驗」，不是只有你在用App的時候讓你感到高興，而是讓你整個人變成更容易相處的人，不是好像上癮在用App的時候才用用戶體驗；當大家聽到一個「奇點」，好像大家到最後都會被某個電影的情節攫取，好比像機器人勝過人類，我們聽到這個訊息時，我們一直要提醒我們在這裡有大眾、多元各個不同文化的「眾點」，我們不能用線性、單一的思維剝奪掉所有其他人的看法，科技的發展是要在這個plurality發展，而不是在singularity發展。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "唐政委你一直在你的職業描述裡面，其中一條是開放政府，而你在推動這個，你剛才也在介紹，雖然我沒有全懂，但大概的意思是要通過高科技把最大的共識把它形成？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你剛才也說到「傳統民主主義」有破裂的現象，而現在的「創新」可以重建民主制度的信心及補強代議政府，但是在實際的生活當中看到有越來越多的人相信有專制政府的執行力與效率更高、更強，你怎麼看這個？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我剛剛有跟羅素有討論過這一個問題，就是說各地對於「創新」的見解不一定相同。在臺灣的創新，是要同時照顧到社會的、經濟的、環境的面向，我們才說它是創新，如果它就是往單一一個方向、線性的思考一路衝，但是造成不利的環境外部性、社會外部性或者是經濟外部性，也就是說，在單一指標上看起來發展得很好，但是一面在破壞旁邊大的生態系統，這樣不會叫做「創新」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我覺得當然，誠然在專制的制度裡，當您只看一個指標的時候，他是可以把這個指標愛衝多高就多高，但是我們在意的是我們要建立一套均衡、彼此間沒有互相抵銷的情況，不然你往那個方向跑、他往那個方向跑，繩子一拉哪都沒有去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個情況下SDGs為什麼對我們這麼重要？因為它建立了十七項可以同時往前，而不會抵銷掉的這一種共融、共好的指標，所以在SDG的指標上，我們並不認為專制是一種比較好的體制；相反的，我們認為只有在對十七項各種不同concern的朋友有一個充足的言論空間、集會自由等等的空間時，我們才能找出正真正的創新是同時照顧十七項指標的。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "您也在國際上，很多地方，像聯合國、歐盟在介紹您在推廣臺灣開放政府這一種經驗，您覺得這個對於將來彌補傳統民主制度的缺陷及問題方面，臺灣將來會扮演什麼的角色？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得我們很幸運，因為我們是同一代有總統選舉，也是同一年有全球資訊網的普及，所以可以說民主制度從一開始就是在網際網路這個時代發生的，所以並沒有兩百多年的共和傳統或者是什麼傳統需要維繫的——也沒有什麼傳統，再往前都是專制——所以我們在這個工作裡面，可以不用受legacy system的影響，我們沒有一個非得保護什麼東西的傳統，可以從一開始由當下大家碰到的社會環境及經濟的情況，來量身打造一個真正可以達成共識的民主系統。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們可以在這樣的情況之下，好像一個clean slate來進行創新，其實不只臺灣，像愛沙尼亞是很常舉的一個例子，或者是冰島，或者是在15M活動之後的西班牙等等，他們也都經歷了這樣的一個時刻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得我們特殊的位置是，我們是民主政體跟網際網路是在同時形成的，試驗出來的東西，當成熟之後可以擴散到世界的其他部分，我們甚至可以在一開始還不確定要怎麼走的時候，就有足夠的政治能量來做這樣的實驗。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "2014年太陽花的運動，當時我們在紐約就已經感受到它的熱度，你在許多的採訪當中，有人問你說是不是馬英九請你來幫忙，你在太陽花當中是什麼樣的角色？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一開始是當天晚上要直播的抗議晚會，我提供網際網路的連線及架設通訊系統，但是我當時並不知道他們會去占領，那真的不是我的idea。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是既然都占領了，我們都發現裡面謠言是非常多的，大家都不知道到底發生什麼事，有謠言說警察衝進去了，有謠言說這些都是暴徒等等，各種很奇怪的訊息開始出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我學的是通訊跟資訊專業，資通訊專業就是讓真實的傳播速度可以跟得上謠言速度，甚至比謠言還要快，我做的事簡單來講，是和一群朋友提供網際網路，提供任何人——只要在場，不管他支持哪一方——完整通訊的權利，然後再確保大家都可以在街上，甚至是走過就可以看到占領裡面的狀態，因為我們有一個直播，甚至還請朋友們在會場裡面聽到的東西，馬上打下來，大家就直接可以在直播的字幕牆上知道發生什麼事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以全部的目的就是：透過溝通，減少誤解、衝突。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "整個太陽花的過程中其實有三種中立的角色，一種是g0v負責資通訊溝通的工作，一種是律師們負責保護每個人人權上的安全，以及醫師們保護人身上的安全，所以這三種在當時的角色，基本上不管是「黑色島國青年陣線」或者是「白色正義」的哪一派，都可以使用我們提供的這些資源。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "這樣做的最後積極結果怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是沒有失蹤、沒有受傷而死，這個跟一般的占領跟大規模的運動很不一樣，因為每一個角落都有人在看，而且每個角落你都不能做一件事，然後翻臉不認或者是翻臉不算，所以在那樣完整、大家凝視的空間，我們確保不管是騷亂或者是暴動或者是謠言，沒有傳播的空間，因此一定程度上使得整個占領非暴力的傾向得以維持。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "太陽花運動之後，我們看到比較多的臺灣年輕人不太認同一個中國，或者是這一種民調的顯示是不認同中國人的比例在增加；但是另外一方面，因為臺灣靠大陸太近，經濟對於大陸的依賴性非常地大，所以以至於許多畢業生最後能找到工作的機會，大陸要比臺灣更多。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你對臺灣青年人的現狀及未來，以及對將來前途的影響要怎麼看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想人才外流並不是一個問題，我們要的是人才的對流，因為有些人的題目就是適合在您剛剛所說到歐洲大陸、澳洲大陸、美洲大陸，或者是亞洲大陸這一些地方去做，確實有一些題目適合在海島上做，有一些題目適合在大陸的空間做，就要看你是要做哪樣子的題目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以不管是我們在臺灣創新，然後放在亞洲大陸、歐洲大陸、南極大陸把它規模化，或者是在這一些大陸上的創新，我們放在臺灣上去進行規模化，這個就要看那個題目的本身。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我覺得重點並不是線性思考，而是我們問大家有沒有一些在臺灣有這麼自由的市民社會，我們有這麼自由地有活潑、有彈性的解決事情方法，有沒有哪一些創新是非在臺灣做的是不可的？像我剛剛分享的例子大概都是，你沒有辦法在別的地方去做這一些題目，因為這一些題目需要各種不同有創意的人在不摧毀彼此言論機會、集社自由上去達到各種共同共識的社會創新。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我認為有認同這一個價值來臺灣念書，留下來去擔任創新的工作，目前新經濟的移民法是不是可以調整到讓他們可以留下來，又或者是我們已經通過的外國人才專法是不是更適合他們留下來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每個人的人生志趣是不一樣的，但是我們留下來就是對於這一些社會創新、永續發展有興趣的朋友，就算一開始不是臺灣人，我們也非常歡迎他來臺灣進行工作。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "很多報導說你從小有被霸凌的經驗，你在很多地方也談到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，八歲。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你剛才跟羅素的談話當中也談到了。這個對你後來的發展有什麼影響？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我八歲的時候，讓我有一個機會提早接觸社會上不同的群體。因為我是從某一個群體裡面離開了，然後就開始自學。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在那個過程中，我就發現其實跟我同年齡的八、九歲的小朋友們，他們可能不那麼確定知道為何會做這一些霸凌的行為。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是因為反而我好像抽開了一段距離，我就發現說也許是社會給他們的父母輩有太多的競爭壓力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我讀的是資優班，可能是他們的父母給這一些小孩個人間競爭的壓力，當壓力累積到一個程度，我又總是考第一名，所以壓力就會集中到特定個體的身上，去進行霸凌的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是我覺得他們這些霸凌的行為只是系統的表徵，真正的問題是個人跟個人的競爭被過度地強調了，所以這個讓我後來投入教育改革的運動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也許集體跟集體間在解同一個題目的時候還是有競爭，但是在團隊裡面，我們現在越來越強調跨領域、跨背景、跨各種不同年齡層的互相協作、合作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "個人的競爭力可以說是幾乎沒有用武之地了，就是在快速變化的世界裡面，讓我提早體會到可能協同合作才是最重要的。至於個人的競爭，我會早一點從大家好像跑同一個跑道的幻覺中醒來，然後自己挑一個跑道。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "後來你們舉家去了德國也是因為這個原因？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是，那是因為我爸爸在寫他的博士論文，我們去陪他，只去一年而已。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "但是因為霸凌的問題，你轉了很多學校？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "六年六個學校。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "而且你媽媽後來對你弟弟在什麼地方受教育也有很多concern。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是，我弟弟到他那個時候，臺灣在家自學就已經是合法了，我那時還不合法，我國中自學的時候，其實我的校長是要瞞著教育局說我都有來，但是事實上我並沒有，到我弟弟比我小四歲的時候，這就不是問題了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我弟弟幼稚園的時候，我媽媽就參與花園新城的幼稚園，我弟弟小學的時候，我媽媽就辦了一個實驗小學即「種籽小學」，我弟弟國中的時候，我媽媽就辦了一個國中，我弟弟高中的時候，那個國中就變成是完全中學，所以可以說他是臺灣教改的火車頭之一（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，在這個過程裡面，我們就看到其實大家都已經知道說這種在體制裡面，教人互相競爭的這一種教育系統已經不合時宜了，但是大家還不確定要往哪一個方向去發展，所以我覺得臺灣也很可貴，就是在最近十幾年裡面，我們有各種不同的教育理念，像德國的華德福到臺灣本土非常多的想法，都可以辦自己的共學團體。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前我們的法令已經容許高達了10％的學生透過這一種非體制的方式來接受教育，只要教育的plan是縣市審議委員會核可，就可以自己編自己的課表。在這樣經過十年之後，我們發現裡面有一些部分，我們叫做「素養教育」的部分，就是自發的素養、互動溝通的素養，共好的這一些素養，是更可以抓到我們現在這個時代的教育，而不是以前體制型的教育。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我自己在十二年國教課程發展委員會的工作，大概是兩年前把實驗學校裡面試出來好的部分，實驗也有失敗的，就是成功的部分帶到體制教育裡面，然後重新定義我們的基本教育系統，這個也是第一次學生、家長等等都加入了課程審議的範圍，所以明年我們的新課綱就即將上路了，就不會過度認同特定的技能，然後在AI來的時候好像若有所失，而是大家只會認定說在人生的過程裡面，就是要解決一些社會環境問題，要創造好的正向影響力，所以任何新的技能、新工具出來的時候，都是為我所用，而不是好像我過度認同。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "說到霸凌，我們在做國際媒體的時候，今年臺灣被霸凌，讓國際媒體報導的情況非常多，兩年多了丟了五個邦交國，然後從航空公司對臺灣稱謂的要求，一直到國際體育運動會、世界衛生大會等等，都可以看到中國大陸對臺灣國際空間上的強力壓縮。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "我不曉得你對於這樣的霸凌是怎麼看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個其實我想跟我剛剛講的一樣，面對這樣的形式，我們早就有一點抽開一段距離來看，並不是在單一的目標上壓過或者是贏過其他國家是成功的；相反的，是在經濟、政治這一種單一的思維之外，不是把大家比下去，而是能夠具體一起解決環境或者是社會這樣子的問題，才會有永續的關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實永續的關係也是永續發展目標也要強調的，大家是為了解決相同問題的這一種夥伴關係，我們現在有一個專門的詞叫做「暖實力」。國際社會要瞭解到臺灣是一個可信任的夥伴，可以不斷地送暖、互相送暖的這一件事，是很堅實的友誼基礎。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像我當時雖然離開學校，但是還是跟整個學術社群、社會社群，又像社區大學，主婦聯盟剛開始辦合作社等等的系統有一些永續關係，並不是他跟我們做過一年的同學，我們要一起考月考、段考的這一種交易式關係，所以這一種永續的關係比交易型的一、兩次你看起來有出面、沒有出面等等，我覺得來的有意義。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "明年是64鎮壓三十週年，這一件事在中國大陸社會當中仍然是一塊傷疤，臺灣在處理過去也有過這一種傷疤，像也有這一種對於群體鎮壓過去不愉快、痛苦的經驗。中國大陸到目前為止，政府正面來面對這一種問題，臺灣能夠提供什麼經驗？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "2014年太陽花的時候，大家也非常擔心鎮壓這一件事，我們都在現場，當時最容易傳的謠言是「警察打進來了」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以非常清楚地是，臺灣政府當時不但沒有選擇鎮壓，而且事實上在當年年底的市長選舉之後，當時新的閣揆出來說「開放政府、群眾力量是我們新的施政方針」，等於是在當年度把這一些占領者，跟支持占領者群眾的訴求，變成國家的一個新方向、新的力量。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我覺得這一件事是難能可貴的，如果不是在占領的過程中，我們透過各種各樣資通訊的方式、各種各樣引導式討論的方式，讓當局知道這個是完全非暴力的一場行動，也透過資通訊的力量，讓全民跟全世界看到這個是比較好的討論服貿協議的方式，如果沒有達成這兩個的話，說不定也有可能激化、有暴力衝突，也有可能走向您剛剛講臺灣過去一些還在進行轉型的過往。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們可以提供的非常簡單，就是這一種大規模的相互傾聽，以前研究占領運動的學者不覺得是有可能的事情，我們做到了，而且我們做到的這個過程是有完整紀錄，所以未來有類似事件的時候，如何運動科技把衝突跟科技弭平，而不是越來越升高，變成非得鎮壓不可的情況？這個情況「Taiwan can help」。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "唐政委，您的頭銜是「數位政委」，您本身也是一個高科技互聯網的專家，很多報導認為中國大陸在AI上是領先於美國，但是我們知道中國大陸在用AI主要是用於對民眾的控制、對維持社會穩定這樣的一種作用。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你對於AI將來的發展怎麼看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想它是一種工具，就跟任何其他工具一樣，技術要如何運用，其實反映了後面大家運用這個技術的人的價值，就是它的認知到底是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像我剛剛不斷講，臺灣在發展這一些AI，AI來帶領討論等等，都是為了整體公共利益，並不是只是為了寫AI算法的那一個人利益，這一點是非常重要的，我們在臺灣從中學開始，我們在演講裡面有分享，我們讓任何國中生都能夠接觸寬頻網路，都可以連到國家高速運算中心，那邊有幾近免費的AI資源，能夠讓大家驗證自己的算法、驗證自己想要AI幫自己群體做到什麼樣的貢獻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，學生學到並不是因為在偏鄉或者是城市或者是離島而有所不同，大家都有相同AI的資源。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，當他在進行創作的時候，是可以具體解決旁邊群體社會或者是環境或者是經濟問題，就可以得到社群的支持。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這整個工作都是開放的，所以不會被少數的人濫用，這個在教育上是非常重要的概念，也就是「除魅」，也就是disenchantment或demystification，大家不會覺得AI好像是很神秘的東西，一定得祭拜，然後他才會給你一些什麼，而是說他就是跟個人電腦一樣，是你能夠學習，像拼圖一樣拼一拼，拼得起來的東西，然後每個人會覺得這個是for他的personal empowerment，而不是好像非得去屈從於開發AI的人不可。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我覺得AI的民主化，這個是臺灣選擇的一條道路，這個跟您剛剛所講的跑道可能是不同的，所以也沒有競爭的問題。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "但是專制政府利用高科技、互聯網、人工智能這一些手段，不是用於給老百姓創造更好的生活條件，而是用於對社會的控制，當這一種模式往外輸出的時候，於是就遇到了究竟是為了自由、人民的好或者是為了控制，這一種競爭或者是這一種衝撞時，你覺得未來會怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實在占領運動的時候，大家也對這一個題目有非常多的爭辯及辯論。如果你讓大家都能夠創新，也就是一個自由的社會，感覺上是會亂，又或者是感覺上無法控制，因為無法預測它的走向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是長久來講，這樣凝聚出來的共識是比較穩固的。雖然中間經歷了政黨輪替、經歷了各種不同的選舉等等，但是在當時凝聚出來的基本共識，非但沒有被推翻，反而變成臺灣這一個社會脈絡紋理的一部分，當你捲動越多人的時候，你的科技只要能夠捲動越多的人傾聽，他的正當性就越高。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是，我並不是很確定您剛剛所講專制式運用的一種方法，本身的正當性如何，或者是在人民的心中是否越來越有正當的形象。我想這一件事隨著歷史的發展，我們會看到正當性證成的方式，不斷透過技術的轉變也在轉變。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我並沒有一個定論，這個是開放式的問題，既然臺灣選擇了開放式創新的軌道，我們就有一個責任，讓我們的區域及世界看到，這樣子的開放式創新也可以有好處、也可以證成正當性。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "談一個你個人性別的問題，你是怎麼樣確定你的性別取向跟性別認同？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我是跨性別，並沒有一定是哪一個性別。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "個人來講，我經過兩次不同的青春期，所以也比較能夠理解到不同的人青春期時的一些情緒上或者是身體上的一些發展等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對我來講，這個就是我自己的情況，並不是普世地希望每個人都有兩個青春期，沒有這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這個給我不同的view point，更讓我能夠理解到大家在不同的社會情況時是怎麼樣感受的，以及有些人遭受一些誤解或者是霸凌的話，我也會很願意去幫助大家不要特別標籤化，這個沒有什麼，這就是生活的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你的性別取向跟你小時候受到霸凌有關係嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有什麼關係。八歲的時候，大家最忌妒的可能還是我跟老師的關係，又或者是在資優班過度競爭的那個情況，我實際出櫃那是二十幾歲的事情。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你把名字從「唐宗漢」改成「唐鳳」，這個選擇能不能講一講因為什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「鳳」這個字很有意思，在現代漢語裡面多少有一些女性的意味，但是在古代漢語裡面，幾乎都是雄性的意思，所以本身就充滿這樣流動的性別氣質。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我當時希望選這個字，一方面表達人不一定要被性別決定他的社會劇本概念，二方面也是希望透過這樣的方式，讓大家可以看到一個人的性別或性別氣質展演等等，都可以像自己的名字一樣，是可以自己決定的。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "你是一名LGBTQ的權利支持者嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "問", "speech": "臺灣在保障他們的權利方面做得怎麼樣？你作為一個跨性別的人，成長的過程是不是要比別人付出更大的代價？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然也有更多的獲得，就像剛剛講的，可以更同理各個不同情況下的朋友感受，就叫「多元交織性」或者是「intersectionality」，就是你經歷過越多不同的社會位置，你越能夠從裡面比較organize或比較強勢的位置來同理比較弱勢朋友們的感受，如果一個人一生都是一帆風順，一切都是非常主流的，反而沒有那一種很柔軟去同理其他人的能力，這個是一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，臺灣當然在亞洲，對於「LGBTQI＋」是特別好的地方，我們不敢說跟全世界相比，至少在這一個區域，從大法官會議肯認婚姻平權的這一件事，又或者是每一年的遊行，或者是性別主流化的工作等等，在在都是讓我們看到「LGBTQI＋」在臺灣雖然還不是百分之百說跟任何其他人一樣，但是至少這個是在越來越好的過程中，這個是可以確定的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我的功能在這裡面，就是讓大家看到其實一個人可以有各種各樣認識的方法，從某一個角度認識他，也許有一些刻板印象，但是從別的角度認識他，就會被打破了，因此每個人就是他自己。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "透過「每個人就是他自己」的方法來達到「仁」，這個字右邊是一個「等於」符號，其實就是平等的概念，就是放在「我們之間的不同，是我們唯一共同之處」這個概念上。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "...gently encourage those who are mingling at the back to do so quietly. Informal in the sense, if you want a cup of coffee during the proceedings, feel free to head back. With respect to our esteemed guest today, if you can at least be quiet in the back, or come up and take your seats." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Welcome to all of you, those in the room and those watching via the webcast. Delighted to have you with us here. I’m Tom Nagorski. I’m the executive vice president of the Asia Society. Welcome also to the delegation from Taiwan that is here." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "I’m going to go away from my prepared remarks. I was going to say, this should be an interesting program, and go through the things that you’ve already probably read in the flier. Danny Russel and I have just had the privilege of the pregame discussion with Minister Tang. I can tell you, I just upgraded from interesting to fascinating." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "We’ve just had a taste of it in the room next door, a lot of things that quite frankly, I don’t think I understand." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "The minister was asked several times if he would please speak slowly as he goes through some of the things that will be covered in the discussion today. Just quickly before we get started, a couple of words about goings-on here, because there are many good ones to talk about." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Some of you may know, but if you don’t, we are just one week into our fall season of India, which opened here with a lot of fanfare last Friday. The anchor of that season is a magnificent exhibition of Indian art, Indian artists who have not been shown together in this fashion for several decades." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "The show is called “The Progressive Revolution -- Modern Art For a New India.” It is a landmark exhibition of artists who were known around the time of independence as the Bombay Progressives. It has already been highlighted by the New York Times, New York Magazine, Art Forum, and others as a must-see show for the fall arts season here in New York." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "There was a big review, and a very positive one, in today’s Wall Street Journal. At any rate, we hope you’ll spend some time with it today, or at any time during the fall in the galleries. Also, you can check asiasociety.org, or fliers that are around here." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "There are under that heading, Season of India, a lot of very strong, interesting programs across culture, policy, and business that are coming on the India front. Next week, as you probably know, as New Yorkers, you know that UN General Assembly season is upon us, which means first and foremost, that it’s impossible to move around in Manhattan." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Somehow, people still make it here for all the events that we put on. We have somewhere between seven and nine -- it changes, it seems, by the hour -- leaders from Asia who will be in this building in the week beginning on Monday." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Still tickets available for the following, the prime minister of Nepal, the foreign ministers of Pakistan, Singapore, and the United Arab Emirates, the 92-year-old man who has been called recently the Comeback Kid of Asia, Mahathir Mohamad, back in power as prime minister of Malaysia. He will be here next week." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "There may be others still to come. Please be in touch with us the old fashioned phone way, or at asiasociety.org for the latest. A special mention about October the 9th, which is the date on which we honor our 2018 class of Asia game changers." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "These are people and institutions who are having transformative impact in one way or another across the part of the world we care about. That evening, down at the tip of Manhattan at the Cipriani Lower Broadway space, we do the honors." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "It is an incredible group of nine Asia game changers this year, and tickets are available for that. I highly recommend it. It’s the first year we’re doing this. Also, that afternoon, here in this building in the auditorium, we do a public program with several of the honorees, including, I should say, just confirmed, Indra Nooyi the CEO at PepsiCo." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "The first Indian to ever head a Fortune 500 company. I think also the first woman of color to do so. We are honoring her not only for her leadership in business, but also in philanthropy, and her work on behalf of girls and women around the world." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "She will be here that afternoon and evening, along with several of the other game changers. The Afghan girls’ robotics team, you may have heard about their endeavors. The leader of the incredibly brave group, the White Helmets, in Syria, the great Chinese environmental champion, Wong Xu, and many more." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "That’s October the 9th, afternoon here in downtown that evening. Now, to our guest this afternoon. Audrey Tang became Taiwan’s digital minister almost to the day two years ago. First digital minister in Taiwan, one of the few anywhere in the world." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "We believe the only transgender minister, or at least the first one anywhere on the planet. Audrey Tang led Taiwan’s first e-rulemaking project. Here, we get into the things I don’t understand so well." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Well, this, I do. She serves on the Taiwan National Development Council’s open data committee, and she is a K-12 curriculum committee leader. If you’re wondering what sort of background is required to become a digital minister somewhere, Audrey Tang’s road has taken her via Apple, although not physically." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "We just learned she was actually never in Cupertino, but worked for Apple anyhow on computational linguistics. She was at the Oxford University Press, where her work was on crowd lexicography, and at Socialtext, where she did social interaction design." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "All impressive stuff, and then one other interesting piece from the bio that’s not in your programs, junior high school dropout." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Go figure. Audrey Tang will give a brief presentation here, and then be joined by Danny Russel, who members and visitors here will know, Vice President for International Security and Diplomacy here at the Asia Society Policy Institute." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "Danny Russel served most recently in government as Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs. He also served as the White House’s special assistant to the president during the Obama administration, and National Security Council senior director for Asian affairs." }, { "speaker": "Tom Nagorski", "speech": "We are on the record. Again, welcome to those watching via the webcast. The Twitter hashtag, if you are so inclined, it is #AsiaSocietyLive. Please, a warm welcome to the Asia Society, here from Taipei, digital minister Audrey Tang." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, everyone. Very, very happy to be here. Let’s see if this clicker thing works. Oh, it does. That’s great. Thank you for the excellent introduction. I worked with Apple, not for Apple. This is a very important distinction, as I currently work with the Taiwan government, but not for the Taiwan government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You will see why in a few slides. In any case, my talk today is about digital social innovation. Unlike many people today who work in Asia on furthering democracy, I’m an optimist. This strange condition began when I was 15 years old." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was 1996. I discovered that the future of human knowledge is being created on the World Wide Web, and my textbooks were all out of date. I told my teachers I wanted to drop out of high school and start my education on the World Wide Web." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Surprisingly, all my teachers agreed with it. Then on the World Wide Web, I discovered this wonderful community called the Internet Society that has a very strange idea of governance. It’s called rough consensus, radical transparency, where anyone can join." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s an open, multistakeholder system. That’s the first democratic governance system that I know. It would be another six years before I get my first voting right. That is my tribe. What I’m doing now is to take the lessons I learned when I was 15 years old to the governance system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This corresponds very neatly to the sustainable development goals, because in SDG targets 17.18, 17.17, and 17.6, we talk about the idea of people that working on common goals that are pre-agreed, but not so much on the pathways, on how to get to the goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of utmost importance is that people understand the available data, the evidence, what their actions influence, the environmental and social spillovers and things like that, in order to encourage trustworthy and effective partnership." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In fact, that is what the digital minister in Taiwan, my mandate is to do. It’s through open government, social innovation, and youth engagement, to make sure that people can have a meaningful input -- the values of Taiwan, the plural part is the important part -- comes from the inaugural speech our president gave two and a half years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She said, “Before, democracy was often understood as clash between two opposing values. Now, Taiwan’s democracy must become a conversation between diverse, a plurality of values.” That, we took as our guiding idea, guiding philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the previous century, governance systems were often thought of as people who organize, among, for example, people interested in environment and people interested in development through different agencies, different councils." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Among these organizations, arbitrate through them and into some sort of compromise in the middle position. That governance structure, that system is bankrupt after the advent of social media and of a hyper-connected world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People don’t need the government to organize themselves anymore. With the right hashtag, tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people, just organize out of nowhere. It is impossible for the government, or indeed, the legislation, to set up new committee for each and every emerging issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We find ourselves in a lot of tension if we still want to govern the old fashioned way. Digital governance, or collaborative governance, learns from the Internet Society, and asks a different set of questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of how should we organize people, and what is fair between those organized people, we now ask, so we have different positions. What are some of our common values that we can agree with? If we can agree on some common values, can we deliver innovations that works for everyone?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the government keeps asking these two questions, various other interests that seem to be in opposition with each other will soon come into consensus. I will use one particular example that I personally participated in and that some legislators here have participated in as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Four years ago in Taiwan, there was a demonstration. It’s a demonstration in the sense of a demo, of showing how to do something, not in violent protest. It was around the MPs at the time refusing to deliberate substantially the Cross-Strait Service and Trade Agreement, or CSSTA." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Since the MPs were on strike, the people just went and occupied the parliament, and did the MPs’ work for them. That’s the legitimacy theory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we experimented how to use civic technology to enable anyone working with other 20 NGOs, each tackling the CSSTA from a different angle, to just type in their company name or the trade they’re doing, and know exactly how they will be impacted by CSSTA, and have real substantial dialogue around it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called the Sunflower movement. It is a quiet, silent, nonviolent revolution that nevertheless shaped how Taiwan people perceive politics as something that people can substantially contribute without waiting for the government to organize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Supporting the Sunflower Occupy was this movement called g0v, or G-0-V, that started two years before the Occupy in 2012. The g0v movement, which I’m a part of, is this radical new idea called forking the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Forking, in computer science, means taking something that’s already there, that’s going into one direction, and going off to another direction, while relinquishing, abandoning the copyright, so that it could be merged back into the original branch." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "g0v systematically looked at each and every government services, like our Legislation is ly.gov.tw, like our Executive Yuan is ey.gov.tw. Every website ends in gov.tw. The movement says if there is something in the public service that you don’t like, well, you can go off and make your own version by changing the O to a zero." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "g0v’s shadow government version of the legislation is ly.g0v.tw, and so on. Basically, you don’t have to google for our work. You just go to any government website, change the O to a zero, and get into the shadow government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all open source, open data, interactive, and so on. This is the inaugural project of g0v, budget.g0v.tw. Back then, people found the national administration’s budget, 500 pages PDF, very difficult to understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v people, using the same data, build a visualization where you can zoom into the keywords to the topic areas you care about, and have a real conversation about people interested in the same areas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because they abandoned the copyright, this year, we merge all this work into the national administration, so that for more than 1,300 ministerial projects, you can see the KPIs, the procurements, the research proposals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything associated with those 13 different projects, ask any questions, and have a career public servant have a real dialogue on that particular budget item as a social object. This demonstrates one of the ways that the civil society can just fork of a public sector service, and have the public service merge back their contributions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v communities, using this ethos, supported the occupiers back then, based on this idea of free software. In Taiwan, when we say free software, or 自由軟體, we always mean free as in freedom, not as in beer, because we know that freedom is never free." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our parents’ generation or our grandparents’ generation paid dearly for the freedom of association, of assembly, of speech. We have to keep using the free software to keep it free, which is why we always only use the free and open software for this kind of endeavor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the Occupy, the main way that we did the deliberation on the street, and also recording it online, it called the focused conversation method. It’s invented in Canada about 12 years ago. It separates a discussion into four stages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The facts or objective stage, where people gather around evidence that are not disputed by any party. Very importantly, the feeling stage, where for a while, we talk about nothing but each other’s feelings, checking in on each other’s feelings, and make sure that the feelings are properly resonating within the people who attended the Occupy or the discussion before we move onto ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The best ideas are the ideas that takes care of the most people’s feelings. The decisions, then, is easy, just to take the ideas that are self-coherent, and check with the stakeholders. Then we can make it into law." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is called crowd law. There’s hundreds of events that we did, the crowd law campaign, and things like that. You can just google for crowd law and find a catalog of the hundreds of attempts that we did in conjunction with communities around the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of time, I don’t have time to show all the four steps. I will just show the feelings part. For example, back in 2015, we used AI-powered conversation called Polis -- it’s an open software -- to talk about this idea of UberX, or people without a professional driver’s license carrying passengers and charging them for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just on this neutral description, we spent three months with all the stakeholders to make sure it doesn’t offend anyone, and everybody is welcome to join. We sent this link to everybody on their mobile phone, and just in one glance, they can see what their friends and families, their Twitter friends, their Facebook friends, stand on this issue of UberX." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To express their feelings, basically, they look at their friends and families and other people’s, citizen’s feelings. “I feel that passenger liability insurance should be mandatory for riders of UberX private vehicles.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can agree or disagree, to resonate or not, on this statement. As they press agree or disagree, their avatar, the blue circle, moves in the crowd to identify the tribe or the cluster that they identify with. We don’t look at the numbers here. We’re just measuring the diversity of possible feelings and reactions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The magical thing is that, because we don’t jump to solutions, we just check in with each other’s feelings. There is no reply button, so there is no room for trolls to perform. It’s impossible to troll this system. All you can do is to propose more nuanced, more eclectic feelings for other people to resonate with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After three weeks, we always find the participation something like this. To the right are the divisive statements that people generally agree to disagree. People spend far more time and far more energy on the left, which are the consensus statements that the ministries hold themselves to account." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We agree to respond point by point to anything that resonates across the aisle, across the population. People compete still, but they compete for resonance. They compete for feelings that represents the most people’s feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we meet with each stakeholders one by one in a live stream session, checking with them. “Here are the common feelings of people. Do you agree? If you do, is there something that you can do to help furthering these feelings? If not, why?”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On this way, the interpretation or ideas become very feasible, because it’s based on common goals and common feelings. We set up the public digital innovation space as part of my mandate in 2016 to scale this conversation. We both scale out, as in teaching the municipalities internationally on how to run this system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We scale up, by giving it more binding power through e-petition and so on, which I will talk, and deeply, by having in our K to 12 education, in our high education, this kind of consensus-making as capstone projects for people to focus on environmental and social issues as part of their basic and higher education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m a radically transparent digital minister. All the meetings that I hold, that I chair, I publish a full transcript, after editing for professionalism and taking out some in jokes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we publish online, two weeks to the day after each meeting. You can see hundreds of meetings. Anyone can ask me questions, including journalists, but they don’t get exclusive answers. The answers need to be shared with everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, this is Mr. David Plouffe, speaking for Uber at the time. Lobbyists are subject to the same standards. It’s not just on the record. It’s on 360 recording record. Any one of you can just put on a VR and relive the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think is very important, so that the other stakeholders see Uber not as a nameless, faceless thing, but we actually regulated Uber. You can now call Uber legally, and it can call taxis through the apps and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are in a symbiotic relationship now, so people can have their feelings checked also by the stakeholders’ feelings, as captured by the radical transparency records. To make sure all the career public service is in line with this kind of work, to reduce their fear, uncertainty, and doubt, we introduced the idea of POs, or participation office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re a team of people in each and every ministries, by national regulation, that their job is just to engage with people with emerging views online, before they take to the street. Their job, very simply put, is to meet monthly and talk about the emerging issues that we should proactively engage the civil society with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s a virtual team, it’s literally like 60, 70 people now. We share the same virtual workplace. People generally consider each ministry is a reliable partner in cases like this. There is no silo effect, just by the virtue of going through 40 or so cases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For each petition, for example, the one on the right is the petitioner last May who petitioned saying, “The tax filing system is explosively hostile to the users.” It’s purely negative energy. There is no useful information in this petition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we looked at the people who commented, and 80 percent of which are just saying, “The Minister of Finance should resign,” or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not very helpful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of the participation officer network, we just send an invitation to everyone who complained publicly, saying, two weeks from now, everybody who complained, just by the virtue of you posting a complaint, are cordially invited to the Ministry of Finance to co-create with the participation officers the next year’s tax filing experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like that, the wind has changed. Everybody afterwards, their posts, it’s 80 percent of it are constructive criticisms. They are actually offering their professional help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We had very successful four co-creation workshops that, together with people who complained on the right-hand side, they just get invited into the kitchen and become chefs or co-chefs, and totally redesigned our tax filing this year, which has a 96 percent approval rating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other four percent, of course, still understand that their input will be taken into consideration in a fully radically transparent way for next year’s tax filing experience. These are some of the ways that we’re trying to get people who commit to different sides of the SDG into the center, which is innovation to the common values, to the good of everyone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The place we hold collaboration workshops, I must show it to you. It’s my office in Taipei City. It’s called the Social Innovation Lab, within the Taipei Contemporary Culture Lab or C-Lab. This was collaboratively designed by hundreds of social innovators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That soccer field was drawn by people with Down’s syndrome. It turns out they are brilliant artists. I’m here every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. Anyone can come to talk to me, as long as they agree to have the conversation published on the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Rough sleepers, social workers, people working on social impact, they can just come to me. It’s not just they come to me. I also come to them. Every other Tuesday or so, I tour around Taiwan, going to rural places, indigenous places, and so on to the left." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then people can dial in through video conference, but any time I go there to do this kind of investigative journalist or ethnographic research, the 12 ministries related to social innovation are standing by right there on the Social Innovation Lab to the right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone on the field asking, why is ministry whatever introducing something that we don’t feel here, they can give a real back and forth conversation through teleconference and video conference. The other 11 ministries then learn that this is to be resolved in this way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of radical transparency, people just co-create the social innovation plan that basically says the SDGs are the common index. We’re going to index all our work, that the basic and higher education need to index this as part of their capstone and university’s social responsibility programs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our Minister of Foreign Affairs joined for the first time to offer this as international help. Because of time, I’ll just use one last example. When I was touring around Taiwan, I found many people caring a lot about the air quality in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They set up all those very low-cost measurement devices on PM2.5 and other air quality issues in their balcony, in their schools, in their homes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The interesting thing is, it’s entirely grassroots. It’s 2,000 or so points by the time I learned about it. It’s one g0v project. I wish the Environmental Protection Agency can complement their work. In any other place in Asia, the government will feel threatened in legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we just join the civil society by committing to set up the places where they don’t have the measurement devices, by helping collaborating their devices, by producing more high precision devices for them, and also developing algorithms to weed out noise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end, what we committed to is this civil IoT project at ci.taiwan.taidwan.gov.tw, that aggregates all the water quality, air quality, earthquake prediction, disaster relief data, everything into the same super high computing center for the civil society’s contributions to be snapshotted and stored on distributed ledgers, so they know that the government will not change the numbers the day before the election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People have general trust about distributed ledgers that we can hold ourselves into account, no matter where the sensor and the data came from. This is how we can then develop the evidence base, like climate change and other action plans, with other people in other communities without bilateral, multilateral pacts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just people discovering these open source platforms and making use of it. Finally, I would like to read you my job description. Two years ago, when I joined, I don’t have a contract. I had a compact or a covenant with the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My working conditions are voluntary association. I don’t give or take command. That is radical transparency. Anything I see, I can publish, but I don’t see any state secrets, and location independence. Anywhere I am, I am in my office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With these three covenants, they asked me to write a job description of what I am going to do. I wrote them a poem about my job description, which is my vision about digital social innovation. It goes like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see Internet of things, let make it an Internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning. When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever we hear that the singularity is near, let us always remember the plurality is here. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Please. Minister, Audrey, thank you so, so much. That has to rank as the world’s best job description." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Blown away. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for joining us today. What a great treat, and what a fun presentation. I’ll remind you that we’re on the record. The minister and I will talk for a while, and then we’ll open it up to questions from the room, as well as from the great beyond." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Let me ask, or remind you all, who are brandishing phones to set them to stun, so they don’t actually ring while we’re talking. Now, at the beginning of your presentation, Audrey, when you said, “Let me see if I can get this clicker thing to work,” I felt great relief wash over me, and thought, “OK, I can relate to that feeling. Maybe this will be at a technological level that I can handle.”" }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "In fact, your presentation was very lucid. I thank you for that. I wonder if I can start, in keeping with your job description, with the being part of it, with the human part of it, and talk a little bit about who Audrey Tang is." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "You’ve had such an extraordinary journey, one that’s marked not just by innovation, but by tremendous personal courage. You told us at lunch, as Tom mentioned, that you had left school in junior high school." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I know you went, however briefly, to California when you were only 19. You, as you alluded to, were a very active participant in the Sunflower movement. You made the huge step of coming out as a woman, and you’ve got a compact with the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Administration." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "...government, with the administration, that allows you to do these incredible things. Who are you? What drives you? What are some of the principles that have taken you in this fascinating and valuable direction?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "More factoids. I live with six cats. I’m really a cat lover, part of the reason why I voted for Dr. Tsai when she ran for president. She’s a fellow cat lover." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Really, she’s really progressive, even in her progressive party, in terms of marriage equality and also environmental protection, animal welfare, animal right, even and things like indigenous rights, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I think my journey is that of going through two puberties, going through a long period of living mostly with animals, and also my work with the indigenous language community trying to revitalize their identity in a very Han ethnic-centric society, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the overarching theme is what we call intersectionality, which is a big word, I know. The idea is that I have some vulnerable parts, parts that I suffered when I was being bullied when I was eight years old, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can relate to the part that are vulnerable in each of us, who suffer social injustice. On the other hand, I also have this empathy part, which allow me to relate more to people’s lived-in experiences, and organize these into words, into movements, into poetry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By combining the organizational part and the vulnerable part, this intersectionality allows me to be a channel upon which the people who are suffering from environmental or social injustices can amplify their messages through me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then reaching a common understanding with the career public service and what we can do together as a society." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Thank you for that. Just to be clear, your six cats are all carbon-based mammals, right? None of them are digital?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re not crypto kittens on the Ethereum blockchain. I have some of that as well, yeah. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Just checking. I think what I’m hearing is that your own experience, your life experience, and your experience as a transgender woman, is germane to your focus on good governance, collaborative governance, open governance, the freedoms that you’ve been championing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The word I use to describe is scalable listening, or listening at scale. When sufficient time, two people can always merge their horizons to reach some level of understanding. The existing technologies, before the Internet, radio, and television, makes it too easy for one person to speak to millions of people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very difficult to listen to a million people, let alone having millions of people to listen to one another. The Internet can change that, but only in a very humble, very calm, and very ambient kind of way, that makes us focus on each other’s life experience more, instead of distracts us away with notifications, manufactured addiction, or things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is where the digital governance thing is focused on, and how Taiwan is shaping our strategy around AI, data, and distributed ledgers." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Could you talk a little more about how you see technology influencing and impacting on social issues in Taiwan in advancing equal rights? I know that, for example, the law on same-sex marriage is still percolating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s constitutionally recognized. It’s just at the end of the year, we’re going to have a few referendums about the exact wordings, like whether to use the word marriage or not. The same right has been recognized by the constitutional court." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I’m interested in your view of how technology has, in fact, impacted. That’s one example. Are there others?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. In Taiwan, when Dr. Tsai talk about in her campaign broadband as a human right, many other governments say it, but Taiwan has a unique geography that let us actually deliver it. We’re well on the way there now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anywhere in Taiwan, or in any of the islands, Pescadors and so on, if you don’t have broadband Internet connection, it’s always the government’s fault. We think it’s a great equalizer, if everybody have access to the same high speed AI computing devices that I just mentioned, for all the high students to be able to correlate their activities with the air and water quality around their schools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It would be a great unequalizer, if only some people have access to the connectivity and the computing power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, it’s all very driven by equality above respecting the local cultural needs and social needs, and about making the education -- at least in the K-12, but also more and more in higher education -- to participate in what we call the open source-based way of education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re using hardware that we’d call it Arduino or Raspberry Pi that are hardware that anyone can make themselves without paying a patent or royalty fee. The same goes for software, same goes for cyber security, same goes for many other pieces that make technology work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The end goal is just to disenchant or demystify technology itself so that every child can feel that they own the technology, that personal computer remains personal, and not something that they have to subscribe to." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Audrey, what about the other end of the spectrum, the older people, the Luddites, and the people, whether it’s the rural populations or the less educated in societies, who tend to be left behind by technological innovation. How do you enfranchise them with your programs?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we should not ask them to come to technology. We should go to them with technology. In the e-petition platform, for example, there is two cases where it’s strictly local. There’s a South Taiwan popular tourist destination called Hengchun." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They petitioned for a helicopter to be stationed there to serve as ambulance cars, because they are just too far away, 90 minutes drive, from a major hospital. Because it’s a strictly local issue, all the five different ministries, their participation offices, we all went to Hengchun, and have a real conversation with the people there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The technique we used, very simply put, is that there is a room where stakeholders have a more expert conversation. In the town hall, which is me, we watch the live stream of the conversation that’s happening on the screen, but me serving as an ESPN anchor, describe in lay language, in Taiwanese Holo, what does this play even mean to the local people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The local people, all they have to do is to walk to the town hall, or to join you through instant messaging or whatever. Some people do protests. Where I am, there’s SNG, there’s reporters. Because it’s not live streamed back to the deliberation room, it doesn’t disrupt the actual discussion from happening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever people make constructive criticisms, ideas, or whatever, I bring it back through a kind of channeling device back to where the mind map is growing in the people there. People perceive the people outside not as protestors, mobs, or whatever, but actually, active contributors to the mind map. They’re mapping." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of it, we agreed the common value is that people should trust their local clinicians more. We allocate a lot of fun to build a new hospital, where we can fly doctors in, instead of flying patients out." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Interesting. What are some of the points of resistance that you are encountering to elements of this set of programs, whether it’s Join, vTaiwan, or open government? Who’s pushing back?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mostly, it’s the career public service, who initially thought it is something extra to do, something that they don’t have much credit. The Minister would take all the credit if things go well, and if things go wrong, they are always to blame, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I went into the cabinet, the PDIS, my office is deliberately one person from each ministry. I’m allowed to poach one person from each ministry. Theoretically, I can have 32 staff. Now, I have 22. Anyway, it is a truly multistakeholder team." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t give them command. Anything that PDIS does, it is to the benefit of all the 22 ministries involved. Because of that, people start to see, with radical transparency, career public service actually gets a lot of credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, they proposed some very good ideas, but the minister just say no to each of them, so they never see the light of day. In Taiwan’s Freedom of Information Act -- I’m sure in other countries as well -- before people reach a decision in the government, we’re not compelled to publish the drafting stage, the back and forth, within the ministry agencies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because I said anything I can see, I can publish, actually, the career public service gets a lot of credit for communicating with civil society with innovative ideas. It’s still radically new. If things go wrong, it’s always my fault. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People in the career public service learn that they can innovate and propose ideas that even have just five percent chance of succeeding, and having me absorbing most of the risk, or having the president herself, through presidential hackathons and things, activities like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have cross-sectoral collaborations that basically, the career public service writes the entry, give it to the civil society people, who enters the competition. They say, “OK, we are just here to help the civil society.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, they wrote the cases themselves. Every year, we select five cases. There is no prize money, no reward in monetary terms, but rather the prize of winning the president hackathon is to be merged into the career public service, our annual budget the very next year." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Fascinating. You’re sitting next to a lapsed career public servant. I appreciate your forbearance here." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "In my own career in government, I found on many issues -- certainly, issues dealing with national security and international relations -- that it was important that the internal deliberative process remained confidential." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "That was key to not only protecting certain national security sets of information, but also, creating an environment where there was the willingness to innovate, to experiment, to contradict, to challenge the conventional wisdom." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Setting aside national security information, how do you maintain the willingness of the team to take a risk with an idea that may instantly be shown to be a bad idea, or try something that runs against the grain of what’s currently popular? How do you protect that space for really open and honest internal discussion?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Quite a few means. If I had go in with radical transparency and a live camera, I would get nowhere. When I talk about publishing the transcript two weeks after each meeting, every participant is allowed to edit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People who feel there is a power imbalance usually choose to appear as nicknames, so if things go wrong, you don’t know which public service member there is. If things go right, they can come to the journalist and say, “Hey, I proposed that.” [laughs] It’s the best of both worlds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, but still on the national security aspect, my radical transparency compact says I don’t look at anything that is state secret, anything that is top secret or confidential. We don’t know. We don’t know how that will interact with national security matters. So far, it’s mostly about domestic matters." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I get that you’re cordoning off the national security sensitive information and so on. There are other forms of cyber crime, of challenges to the security of systems, the integrity of an administrative process. Have you had problems? Have you had the experience of being...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m going to talk geek for a bit. My first action as the digital minister is to recompile the Linux kernel used in the government systems. Recompiling the kernel is a technical term that means that we used the secured, peer reviewed open source operating system to harden the security of our internal communication tools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the public service in the 14 days of editing, the journalist gets most of the copy, then it will destroy the trust that the career public service place on me. I have to personally ensure the cyber security of the system that we use." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The system’s called Sandstorm, by the way, sandstorm.io. Aside from introducing that, we also commissioned top notch white hat hackers, people who are expert in computer security, won the second place internationally in DEFCON to attack the system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not just some black box penetration testing. This whole system is open source. They pore through each line, looking for vulnerabilities, looking for security holes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s only after half a year of this white box testing that we’re reasonably sure that this is OK against all the cyber security threats, that it has a full audit, and so on, so that people can innovate on top of this platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we used the same Google app-like collaborative spreadsheet, collaborative document auditing, the kanban board, chatroom, you name it within the secure enclave, so that career public service can just write a few pages of simple web programming to create a system for ordering lunchboxes together, or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Giving the freedom to innovate without worrying about cyber security." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "You’ve talked about cyber security. You’ve talked about safeguarding the code and the system. What about safeguarding privacy? What are some of the other concerns? Transparency, yes, but on the other hand, how do you calculate the things that could be put at risk by this radical transparency?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I said, people choose to record their utterances by voluntary association. They only reveal the part of themselves or their speech that they are comfortable of revealing. At an extreme example, I’ve had office hours where journalists interview me, but they change their mind about the questions they ask." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the transcript, you’ll see me answering questions, but all the questions are redacted. In some extreme, it could be like that, which is funny. Usually, it’s the other way around with journalists and ministers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, we do allow people to basically edit away their speeches and utterances, if they feel their privacy, it is at risk. I think as a general point, if people have informed consent of what they put out there in the public domain, we see private data as not an asset to anybody involved, but rather as the beginning of a relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The GDPR from the European Union talks something like that. If you put data in the government storage, the government begins a relationship with you that you can ask the government to disclose what kind of purpose it’s using." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is it using out of purpose? What kind of update mechanism is there? Can I take it to somewhere else for storage, and things like that? Taiwan is totally in line with this kind of what we call data agency algorithms and attitudes." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Let me switch gears, if I can a little bit. You talked a bit in your remarks about your own experience in the Sunflower movement. I lived through that movement from the vantage point of Washington, DC, since I was working at the National Security Council at the time." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "The developments and the progress or lack of progress in the cross-strait relationship, was then and will always be of real importance and real interest to policymakers in the United States, particularly, but elsewhere as well." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "The Sunflower movement was not merely a protest about the fact that the members of the LY weren’t at their desk and doing what you wanted them to do. It was very much about the cross-strait trade services agreement itself." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I wonder if you could talk a little bit about whether, in any way, there’s in your view a digital component to the cross-strait relationship. How, if at all, does your work, these platforms, relate to the dealings and the prospects of the relationship between Taiwan and the mainland?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just for the record, the Sunflower movement is not my idea at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I did not know that it would happen. I was just called there to supply the communication facility of this protest this night. I had no idea that they would climb over the wall and break into it. The communication facility, I thought I would just lend for a couple years. It ended up to be 22 days. I had no idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, I think there is a component of digital in this relationship. The example I showed, the AirBox, or the g0v air visualization platform, many people in, for example, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, or so on, really want to know what really is going on with the air quality there as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just as why the Reporters Without Borders chose Taiwan as their headquarters in Asia, that’s because they have a safe place in which to publish the results, without worrying about retaliation from the government and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a lot of collaboration between the civil society, focusing on water and air quality, and the citizen scientists across Asia, but of course, in those cities appearances as well, where they see Taiwan as somewhere that can safeguard their data, and publish and contribute to the climate science, without worrying about retaliation or revealing their identity there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think in that, I personally worked on the Freenet platform back in 2000 and 2001. It was the precursor of the Tor platform, which is widely used nowadays for people in more restricted Internet environments to safely voice their opinions and send their messages out to the international journalist community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While I don’t work personally on the same technologies now, I do maintain the same ethos and support that people who work on...It’s really SDG16 as well. An accountable, rule of law system, where people can safely publish their evidences that’s related to their environment." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Do you follow what is occurring in mainland China in terms of the harnessing and the application of AI, of technology and connection with the Communist Party’s own goals for social control and social stability?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are on a very different track." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Can you envisage the kinds of innovative platforms and programs that you’re developing and applying being adopted or integrated, even at the local level, in the PRC?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People don’t usually call themselves civic hackers in the PRC, for obvious reasons." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Or if they do, they only get to use that once." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, that’s right. They operate under the umbrella, for example, of social enterprises, and things of a still social, but less threatening, moniker. We do offer through the social innovation plan basic trainings, basic know-hows of how to use these digital technologies, curriculums that we’re building with the Digital Nations network, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All of this are available on the web. The particular thing with our technology is that it’s not reliant on a so-called cloud provider, either Microsoft, Google, or Amazon. It can all be run on a very cheap, simple PC." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That powers, for example, the Occupy. It was powered by intranet, running just a couple laptops. I think this is important so that people can learn to self-organize, maybe not a political setting, maybe just in a socioeconomic setting, but still understand that in the digital governance approach, it is possible to listen to millions of people." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "We talked about cyber security. We understand that you’re setting aside the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "State secrets." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "...state secrets and the confidential information. Where have you had problems? What have been some of the issues? Does your own role as a transgender woman generate pushback and controversy?" }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Are some of the policies that have been produced through open government, or some of the issues that have surfaced through vTaiwan and other platforms, have they created problems that perhaps you hadn’t foreseen?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many. There was an e-petition, 8,000 people, that petitioned Taiwan to change our time zone from plus-eight to plus-nine. The media loved this story throughout the mainstream media. Immediately, almost, there’s a petition of 8,000 people strong that says Taiwan should remain in GMT plus-eight." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of frenzy, of buzz, around this. My methodology, again, when this kind of controversy happens, is just focusing on the common values, as I said in the very beginning. We did invite people who petitioned for both sides into co-creation workshops." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Where they both, after a morning of very loud conversation, and also each ministry explaining exactly how much changing one hour would cost in terms of energy, in terms of tourism, in terms of everything. They had no idea that public service is very professional every single way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then they agreed the common value is that they want Taiwan to be seen as more unique internationally, like we have some unique value proposition, some unique thing going on. Then even the original petitioner agreed that changing the time zone is perhaps not the best way to further this goal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe the media would report it for the day, and then, there are countless multiple time zones. There are countless multiple currency systems. It’s not a strong enough identity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People said, “If we’re going to pay a large one-time cost, and a not-so-long but still sizable ongoing cost to implement this, why don’t we use the same budget to make Taiwan unique in a way that’s cultural, in a way that’s open governance, digital governance. Maybe we can export the system, like Estonia does,” and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It became the consensus for all the 16,000 people participating in the petition, although there was controversy. There were also people who can advocate for the rough consensus that we reached at the end." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I see. Thanks. I was guessing that maybe the debate was going to land on GMT plus-eight and a half." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "That’s not where it went." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s not a compromise." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Speaking of time. we’re about at the point when we should open up the floor to questions and take some from Twitter. Before I do, I’ll abuse my moderator privilege by touching on one subject that I haven’t heard from you about, which is the participation, the role, and the issues with private industry, the private sector." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "How do companies in Taiwan or abroad play in this open government, innovative strategy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As the digital minister, I’m semi-diplomat to those several semi-sovereign multinational entities, such as Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, and friend. It’s very interesting, because they are also struggling with their own legitimacy theory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like the Internet itself certainly doesn’t have a navy or army, but they found themselves being arbiter and organizer of people’s movements, just as we in the public sectors do. I think in many concrete cases, like in Taiwan, we see the use of AI, of bots to spread disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re in the front line of it. We see folks using bots to, for example, con people into buying counterfeit goods, which they pay upon delivery, and found that it’s broken. There’s nothing to return to. I’m still an optimist in doing those semi-diplomatic missions, because early 2000, I went through the spam war -- which is not a real war in a real battlefield, just a very complicated issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back then, people thought email was being destroyed by people who abuse the fact that you can send an email for $0." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, the solution during the spam wars was not from us, the technologists, who implemented strong cryptographic measures, nor from large email hosters, like Gmail, nor from governments which passed the laws on unsolicited emails, nor from the consumer protection authorities, nor from the educators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s everybody doing a little bit in a coordinated action that increased the cost of spam a little bit along the way. It reached a point where it doesn’t earn anyone anything to send spams. Then we don’t see much spams anymore after that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This kind of multistakeholder open negotiation, it does take time. It took five years back in the spam war. We think that it is always better than one single actor dominating the field by basically passing draconian laws that makes everybody else go into the black market, or anything like that. We’d rather engage in a serious, ongoing discussion of Internet governance." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "That’s terrific. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "The floor is open. If you’d like to ask a question, I’ll ask you, please briefly identify yourself. Please make sure that it’s actually a question." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Please keep it brief. The gentleman in the back, please." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi, my name is Jonathan, and I work for CRIA Society. Thank you so much. That was really interesting. Lots of tools to help overcome political apathy and learned helplessness with the whole process." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I wonder if you’ve experimented with taking it a step further, even, gamifying certain types of civic engagements, and that kind of way to make it more exciting and enticing, to bring people who are still not really excited into this." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I’m sorry, just to repeat the question to get it on the record. This is Jonathan from the CRIA Society asking you about whether you can gamify some of these initiatives." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. There’s this project called Holopolis. The reflection stage technology is called Polis. Holopolis basically use virtually reality, immersive reality technology to get people in the IMAX Theater state of mind, and put people into each other’s shoes by first starting on the International Space Station, looking at the Earth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called the “overview effect.” We know as a fact that it makes people better people, just looking at the Earth as a single object, and then zooming in into the environmental system, and viewing, for example, a construction project from the viewpoint of an indentured animal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or, for example, I had this conversation with young schoolchildren by shrinking my avatar into the size the same as those first graders or second graders. In virtual reality, it’s much easier to make empathy, convey empathy, in a way that is not just a game, but it’s still fun, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Really, it is an immersive engagement tool that put people really in the place, and give voice to a river, a history, or an indigenous nation that perhaps have no voice to speak on their own, but could be done with the Holopolis project, with the virtual immersive reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Three people from my team is going very soon to Spain to Madrid to prototype the next step of this gamified system in Medialab-Prado. If you’re interested, feel free to join the Holopolis project." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Do you have a cat avatar that you can use at home?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I actually do. I actually do." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Fantastic. The gentleman in the very back, please." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Earl Carr, representing Momentum Advisers, and also an adjunct professor at NYU. Thank you, Minister Tang. I really enjoyed your presentation. I had the privilege of taking a group of graduate students to Taiwan this summer for the first time, and they absolutely loved Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I had a question. Last year, 2017, there was a large scale ATM theft case in Taiwan, where a network of criminals used malware to essentially, I think it was, 41 ATM machines throughout Taiwan, and stole something like 2.6 million. What kinds of projects are you doing to prevent these types of things from happening again?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re an international network. The fact they are discovered in Taiwan says something about our cyber security capabilities. They’ve been operating everywhere. There is the Cyber Security Act, which is the cornerstone of this. We thank the legislator for a very difficult conversation, and finally passing the Cyber Security Act." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It lists as critical infrastructure the essential services, like banks, that keeps the society functioning. It basically says the cyber security industry, the cyber security community in Taiwan, people who are white hat hackers should have every incentive to remain white hat hackers, and contribute to society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Occasionally, gets meeting with the president, for example, and gets cherished as useful and productive members of a society, instead of going into the criminal route. The pride, the self-esteem of the cyber security community in Taiwan, is now at the highest point in history." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure that there is sufficient HR, like human power, in each critical infrastructure, as well as the ministries that manage these critical infrastructures. We make sure that they’re paid well, they have very good career advancement strategies, and they participate in the international CERT and other communities, and provide their contributions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just the team of hackers who audited by Sandstorm system filed three CVEs, which is like medals that honored their work. Just making sure they’re respected, and we have significant training in the college level for people who are interested in defending the reality of the cyber plus physical world now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is really the cornerstone upon which radical transparency can be built. Without this foundation, it’s impossible." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Ambassador Elliot, there’s a microphone coming." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi, I’m Susan Elliot, and I’m with the National Committee on American Foreign Policy. My question is, this is a really interesting and innovative endeavor of the Taiwan government and yourself." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Are there other governments who are interested in doing similar things, have you had collaboration with other countries, and looking forward to seeing more kinds of digital ministers in countries like the US and others?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a lot of collaborations. The year before I become digital minister, of the 12 months, I spent 5 of which in Europe. I worked very closely with people there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, in the Etalab, the state lab of the French government, and actually trained the activists using this methodology. Then they went off and did Nuit debout." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a very interesting relationship with state lab with civil society people. We also take inspiration from Iceland, from Estonia, from Madrid after the 15-M, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s this coalition of democratic cities. There’s an EU program called D-CENT, for decentralized policymaking. Now, there’s also DECODE, that brings data in and so on. We maintain a very strong connection with both the academic and also the practitioners in the municipalities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s mostly municipalities, because it’s the right amount of people and political willpower that make it happen. That’s it. This June, we also held a workshop in NYC with people joining from 18F. We also met people from USDS, from the New York City government to introduce this methodology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re bringing it Ottawa, I think, this November. We’re making a curriculum together." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Let me take a question from Twitter. This is from..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, from the beyond." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Can established, entrenched power truly concede to emergent changes? Won’t established budgets, careers, fiefdoms reinforce, resist, and deny self-organized solutions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Internet itself was like that. There was a lot of established interests. I’m sure that here, there is AT&T and friends, who, I think, opposed the very idea of installing a plugin to your phone system. Had that not been allowed, this whole idea of modem would not be possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without a modem, there is no Internet. There are some preconditions upon which the established system need to see that this emergent system is complementing -- but not reinforcing -- their hierarchical power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, my philosophy of voluntary association says before the career public service is ready for any of it, I certainly don’t go to the Ministry of Defense and say, “Starting tomorrow, you’re going to do things my way.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s not my philosophy. They only come to me when they see the danger or the risk of not engaging is larger than the potential fear, uncertainty, and doubt that they have internally of engagement. That is the philosophy of participation officers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re certainly not saying we’re replacing the existing establishment overnight. We’re mostly saying, like Buckminster Fuller is wont to do, and wont to say, is that you don’t fix, hack, or patch an old system. You make new systems that, in some cases, make the old system obsolete. It is a natural progression. It is not by fighting with the existing system." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Career bureaucrats could be made obsolete, but you’re not going to fight with them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right, over time." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I got out just in time." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "More questions. Yes, the lady right here." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hello, I’m from Taiwan, and I’m a visiting scholar in New York. I have a question for you, because right now, the news that Google, they claim to return to China market. They already have a Dragonfly, the research, because they’re sensitive." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Some keyword, like a student protest or human rights, sends the keyword. Also, to tricking the browsing results apply to which number to research that, the sensitive concept? What do you think, as freedom can be trending for the business, what benefit for the big company, like Google?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many Googlers who are my friends are very concerned. They’ve brought it up in their internal governance mechanisms. Being their company business, of course, I cannot comment or reveal what it is actually going through." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will use an example, like when I started working with Apple, as a liaison with the open source community. Back in time, for anything related to basic language research, AI research, whatever, Apple doesn’t publish anything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t actually get a lot of credibility or trust from the academic community of the things that they are producing, or how they’re producing, in a very basic sense of the programming language they use." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After quite a few years, people who work as liaisons and the people who work within Apple, eventually convinced the top management that it is actually to their benefit if they worked more in the open, and more to share their research results with the research community of programming languages and artificial intelligence, which is the direction Apple is taking now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it all boils down to the individuals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just to come back a little bit to your remark, I am not saying the career public servants, the people, are made obsolete. I am just saying the hierarchical power structure is being supplemented a little bit and rendered obsolete, but people are still people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can act in their conscience, in the values they want to uphold. They collectively define the company or the brand that they work with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think one of the great mismatch of our time is that we use the words that we use on people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like, we say, “attract investment,” to nouns that are not people. Our institutions are collective fictions, our brands." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People treat people as if they are functional entities, like “human resource,” and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people within an institution can think of themselves more as individual actors, organize, and make their thoughts known, as many friends of mine in Google is now doing, I think there is every hope that their governance system, still within that institution, will deliberate and will change its course for the better of the common will of the people working there." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Let me follow up on that good question about Google and China with a slightly philosophical question, which is that for a generation, there’s been a conviction in the West that freedom is an essential condition for real innovation, that the scientific method is founded on the sanctity of facts, the sharing of data, the integrity of the data, etc." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "That led to a widespread assumption that, for example, in mainland China, that only with political openness and reform could innovation, science, development, and even business genuinely flourish." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "That premise has been called into question, and is debated now, with a lot of evidence suggesting that even while the political system is becoming more controlled, innovation, development, research is flourishing within that political stricture." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Where do you stand on that debate, and what is your experience telling is likely to be the future?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, I think innovation means very different things to many different people. The common dictionary definition is just, it has to be new, it has to be replicable, and that’s it. What counts as innovation, I think, is very different. As I mentioned, very different tracks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, when we talk about innovation, we always say that it must be for the social good, for the common good of everyone. If you make innovation in one particular domain to the sacrifice of other domains, like focus on one sustainable goal to the detriment of the other goals, we don’t call it innovation. We call it a mistake." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Seriously. This is just common political language in Taiwan. On the other hand, in many other jurisdictions, in many other systems, people may just call the linear progress innovation, ignoring the massive externalities that it can cause to the society and the environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What qualifies as innovation is different in the different academic and political communities. I still that open innovation, the ethos that the Internet itself embodies, is not entirely gone in PRC." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the Great Firewall. They still allow people to collaborate on GitHub, which is the most important open source collaboration ground, recently acquired by Microsoft. Basically, what this says is that if it cuts the connection to one of the greatest nexus of open innovation, it is to the detriment of whatever innovation means there as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The innovators there still have a strong enough societal mandate, so that they cannot actually shut GitHub off. I think it’s not as polarized as dystopian at this point, but of course, we’ll pay close attention." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Thank you. Thank you very much for that. Yes, the lady with the black dress. You, yes." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi, my name is Matios. I’m at Columbia University, representing the student-led think tank called European Horizons. We just opened a chapter in Taipei University, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "What I’m really interested in is that obviously, the models that you’re proposing, which are incredibly interesting, are proposing a new form of democracy, or a new form of participation, a more open form of participation." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "It also known that exists a certain digital gap with everything between the offline and online world, and particularly between more developed and less developed countries, although I hate to use that dichotomy." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "There is, of course, a danger that while the countries that can afford the infrastructure, the knowledge, and the education of society to participate in this kind of digital and more open kind of democracy, where does that leave the countries that cannot afford?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "There is an upfront investment necessary. Where does that leave the countries that cannot afford this? When you mentioned the collaborative partnerships, you were mentioning France and Canada, which are very developed countries." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Where does that leave the countries that are not there yet, and how can partnerships be established to improve that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is a great question. Last November, I believe, I spoke about this very topic in the United Nations Internet Governance Forum in UN Geneva. Because of certain passport issues, I had to send my robotic avatar into the Internet Governance Forum. For the rule of proceeding, they were just watching a video, except it’s recorded two seconds ago, and that has a camera with it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, through telepresence, I think panel I attended was on landlocked, least developed, and also small island countries, which doesn’t have a lot of Internet exchange points, where it costs a lot to exchange information to Facebook, to Google, or to any of the data centers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly, those companies are not going to set up data centers any time soon on those small islands or landlocked countries. I think it is pretty unique that Internet is designed with these scenarios in mind originally, because it’s a post-nuclear resilience network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many of the tools of the early Internet, like the email, functions perfectly, even if you’re cut off from the wider Internet, or you only have a very thin connection. That was, indeed, the case during the Occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the Occupy, the entire 3G and HSDPA channels were so saturated that we had to rely on intranet technologies, with very limited exchange capacity to the outside, to run most of the communication network and collective decision in the occupied area around the Legislative Yuan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we think that the technologies we’re proposing, all based on the idea of decentralized web, all based on the ideas that it can run on very low-cost, Raspberry Pi level hardware, open hardware." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could also be of help to landlocked or small island countries that basically want to set up virtual town halls, or about collaborative governance systems, by linking the campuses together without paying for a very expensive outbound link to the great or larger Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we can leverage the latest development on distributed ledger, decentralized web, and things like that. Technologically, we already have a prototype of a solution. We’re, of course, very much willing to work with our partners in many other countries, and perhaps UNDP -- why not? -- to try to pilot these kind of governance systems." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Great. Thank you very much. The lady right in front of the former questioner had a question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The other lady in black." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I also have a finance question. When either individuals, groups, or countries come to you for a solution, and you come up with a solution, I’m concerned or wonder who pays for those air quality controls, the helicopters, or all the solutions you come up with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The air quality sensors, they are done by private sector companies with a social mission. I was just visiting Edinburgh. They called it social enterprises there, but here, they could be B corps or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are basically for-profit entities with a clear social mission to make something happen to solve a sustainable development goal challenge. I am also the minister with the mandate to work with social innovators, entrepreneurs, and anyone who want to make a business out of solving an environmental or social need." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We SDG-index their work, and put it on a dashboard that I don’t have time to show. Basically, we play matchmakers to people with environmental or social needs, and build sustainable business models for the companies who are interested in solving these needs to thrive, and also export it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the Taiwan Water Corporation recently, through the president hackathon, established a relationship with AI researchers to detect the water leakages early, so that they don’t have to wait a year and a half before repairing a new leakage point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They shrunk the time by tenfold, because we SDG indexed this work, because we build a sustainable business model out of it. The team is now in New Zealand, because they did not have a water shortage problem. Because of climate change, they now do. The team was just there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It shows enormous trust to just share data about water pressure, about water quality this way. Of course, the taxpayers in New Zealand probably pay for the initial cost of producing these data, but it is entirely voluntarily association, because there is a business to be made there as well." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Great. Thank you very much. Yes, there’s a lady with a scarf right there." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Hi, my name is Charlie Su. I’m from Taiwan, and work and live here for a little bit. I think this is an interesting platform, very transparent. I think my question is, what’s the percentage of the cities that have involved in this platform, do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Then second of all, I think Mr. Russel, he asked this question about, for the senior people, or older people, or lower educated people, you answered that question that you approached them. I guess the question I have is, if it’s not a specific issue, it’s just general issue, how can they express their opinion through your platform?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first question, the national e-participation platform, or the Join platform, has five million users in a country with 23 million. It’s a sizable population. The age and activity map looks like this. If you’re in a college, or if you’re in a senior high school, there’s a lot of participation. If you’re retired, there’s a lot of participation, because people with more time on their hands." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not seeing much exclusion, domestically and across different counties. It is true that it’s mostly national issues. If it’s local issue, it has to solicit national interest. That is why the two local issues we dealt with are both in popular tourist destinations, or in marine national parks, because everybody wants to visit there. It is to the welfare of everyone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re now working through the second issue you mentioned, through what we call the Regional Revitalization Plan. I don’t actually know how to translate 地方創生, so I will just translate it with whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The original revitalization plan is basically saying in each town, in each county of around 50K to 100K of people, they build their own self-governance system by making use of this e-participation platform. We provide it for free, but mostly for archival, indexing, and education purposes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They still run with analog tools to collect what people feel. We don’t call it deliberative democracy, just calling it 參詳 (tsham-siông) with people. [laughs] Just sitting down and having a chat." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, this idea of regional innovation is our next step of scaling out. It is taking the same tools, same basically culture, the same ideas, the same archival and same level of automation, but empowering the young people in those different townships and counties to be able to collectively determine the identity of their neighborhood." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Build an ecosystem out of it, so that they will wish to remain and identify with that particular place. It is an instrumental part of the regional revitalization tool. The Regional Revitalization Plan compromises of many other ministries as well." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Thank you, Audrey. We’re coming perilously close to the end of our allotted time, and so I think I’m going to let the Internet have the last word." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very symbolic." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "We’ve got a question from online. You’re a champion and a trailblazer in harnessing digital technology and innovation for the benefit of society." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Can you comment a bit on the dangers from the use of social media and other digital technologies for political disruption, for political efforts that undermine democracy, as we have seen in the case of the 2016 here in the United States?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Disinformation campaigns, computational propaganda, precision persuasion, these are a reality of our times. Taiwan’s concerted effort to work with this disinformation is somewhat unique, certainly in Asia, in the sense that we don’t sacrifice anyone’s freedom of speech in our responses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead, what we build was a rapid response system from each ministry and every agency. Nowadays, when our system detect that there is a disinformation campaign starting, within hours -- like three hours or four hours -- there is a clarification or a point-to-point response from the responsibility ministries on the homepage of the administration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we partner with civil society friends who are not paid by the government, for sure, and they can also correct the government’s mistakes. They set up independent fact checking organizations that are not just publishing written reports, but actually have bots, for example, that you can add as a friend on the WhatsApp-like setting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you see something that you wonder whether it’s disinformation or not, you can just send it to that bot, which does a crowdsourced, validated audit trail of fact checking for you, and let you know whether this has been clarified or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end, what we’re trying to do here is using the basic education system and lifelong education system to have a sense of media literacy and critical thinking in people. Back in authoritarian days, it’s very easy to people to accept one standard answer, if it’s printed in one font, or spoken in some authoritarian voice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what disinformation is piggybacking on. It is basically printing with that font, with that voice, just not with the same content, and trying to get into people’s mind, as a virus of the mind, through a mimetic back door, if you will." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, what we’re doing now with this kind of real-time clarification and multilateral consultation that’s very public is that if you sit down and listen with people with different ideas for a long enough time, it builds the immune system, an inoculation in the human brain, so that one cannot be motivated by divisive PR campaigns in the future, because you have considered the different positions of the stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the culture we’re bringing to the table, and we’re also bringing all the different automated reply detection and evaluation systems to the table. We connect with the international fact checking organizations and similar endeavors in an effort to make disinformation more like a distraction, rather than a serious problem undermining democracy." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Great. Well, Audrey Tang, I can’t speak for everybody. I will say I feel like my IQ has gone up by several points just listening to you today." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I can speak for everyone in saying thank you, and particularly telling you that I think we all found what you have shared with us today not only interesting, and not only informative, but also inspirational." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "I want to let you know that you have an open welcome at the Asia Society." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "We very much admire and appreciate both your personal courage, something that we all respect, but also the professional work that you’re doing, which is clearly on the cutting edge of where societies need to go in order to build faith in public institutions, and to refit them for the challenges of the digital age we’re living in now." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Please join me in thanking Audrey Tang." }, { "speaker": "Daniel R. Russel", "speech": "Thank you so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can carry on the discussion knowing that our readers will already have read of our earlier transcript. We can move on to more substantial discussions on how to collaborate." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Would you like to explain a little bit for the context how does the champion, ambassador, partner, and the various role do in the iamtheCODE?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yes. That’s a very good question. As I told you, iamtheCODE, I created it. The idea was to mobilize government, private sector investors, but also philanthropic foundations to start looking into SDGs, looking into the sustainable development goals." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Nobody had this sort of multi-stakeholder approach. Everybody is doing their own thing. Everybody is working silo. Everybody’s trying to raise fund by themself. Everybody’s just trying to do by themself." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I realize I was a recipient of aid in all of these big UN conversations. I just realized that it’s time for us to sit down and work together, collaborate. In my country, in Senegal, in Africa, they say, \"If you want to go far, you need to...\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Go together.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I believe that if we really put our heart into it, then we can all work together. When I started to put this together, I said I needed to find people. iamtheCODE is based on people, products, and processes." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Real, clear, tangible ways of measuring impact. I believe that if you have the right people...We all have connections, between you and me and...What’s your name again?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Aurora." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We have probably 400, 500 followers, all friends of people we know. [laughs] Just you, by yourself, you can fill the room. People is not a problem. People is really not a problem. People buy into things if they see that it’s working." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We need real products. Products that are expensive can’t reach the poor or the marginalized communities or people with different languages, different skill sets, different gender, different race. We need to think about empathy when we building solutions." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "As I putting processes together, what are the processes we need to put into place to make this work? We need to have clear, tangible, measurable M&Es impact to do that. We start putting processes together, meaning lesson plans, the right curriculums, the right technology companies, the right companies to fund it, the right government to put the money into it. Real clear processes that help this to happen." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The processes like how do you make it happen? Once we put these together, we need to find people to do it. I want to find champions, people who really care about situations, not just for publicity’s sake or for press op, but people who really cares." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They need to care about the situations. Then I try finding ambassadors, people who can go and talk about this. We don’t put money into PR and marketing because I believe if you are doing something good, it will talk for itself. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "That’s what I believe, and that’s why iamtheCODE for the last two years we never had any PR stuff, no PR. People just are going and talking about it. People always say to me, \"Oh, why don’t you talk to ’WIRED’ magazine? Why don’t you talk to ’Guardian’? Why don’t you talk to these people?\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think that if they want to find us, they will. I think if somebody goes and say, \"Have you seen iamtheCODE?\" They will come to us. That’s what I believe." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I believe that blowing your own trumpet without having any impact doing anything, it doesn’t matter because at the moment, anybody can go and say, \"Fake news.\" What I want you to do is, tomorrow when you say to me, \" Mariéme, show me your work,\" I want to look at you in the eyes and say, \"This is my work.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I don’t want you to come and say to me, \"Show me your work,\" I say, \"Maybe. I don’t know.\" I don’t want to do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We had that during the dot-com already..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I want to make sure when you say, \"Mariéme, show me this. Where is my money going? How is impacting people?\" I want to make sure I show that you that clearly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, so your \"ambassadors\" are in fact people who send these messages?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah. Send clear messages, and then we invite people on our board. If in fact we understand who they are, we invite them on the board so they can see how iamtheCODE is working." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They can give us their ideas, but they can also help us shape iamtheCODE because we don’t know everything, and that’s something we’re very humble and vulnerable to know that we don’t know a lot of stuff." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I personally don’t know a lot of stuff, so I have people who I ask advice all the time, \"How do you think we should improve this? How do you think we can write this? How do you think we can raise funds? How do you think...\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "People always advise us. When I see people like that, we invite them on the board, and so they are part of the organization themselves, and then finally, we just have people who literally like talking about iamtheCODE and based on my story as well, because it’s a very unique rare story." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Where I come from, everything I suffered in my life to arrive here is very rare, so some people go and say, \"You should talk to Mariéme, you should help her,\" and so that’s how iamtheCODE came about. Right now, that’s what we’re following. We’re following our truth." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We’re not diverting into any social media hoo-ha or hype. We’re focusing on the context, what we’re trying to do here. We have a very big mission. By 2030 we need to show one million women and girls to learn how to code. We need to show this. This is our credibility on the line." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We need to show this in a very systematic way and contextualize it, make people understand what it is. That’s where we are right now, and I think that we want people to understand this mission. It’s very rare that for an African person, but also an African organization is leading the way like this." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They’re mini coding programs, mini-mini programs trying to do things, but I think we’re in a unique position right now, where whoever join iamtheCODE, whoever support iamtheCODE, there is no way you will not see the impact, because you can see that." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You can see the girls who are 11 years old. In 2030 they’ll be 24, 25, and there’s no way you can’t see the return on investment. There’s no way. If you really put the heart into and say I will do this, you can see the results. You can do this with businesses, businesses can employ the girls. Remember, we’re targeting marginalized communities, communities that are forgotten." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If the slogan in the United Nations is \"Leave no one behind,\" this is it. This is what you need to back. You need to back organizations like this that will not leave anyone behind, because we are not scared in going and meeting gays and lesbians, the marginalized, the disabled, the blind." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We’re not scared of meeting those people, because we think they are the future. We think that they’ve been forgotten for many decades. So many millions of dollars and billions of dollars. People are making money out of poverty, seriously. Now, if we want to be sincere with the sustainable development goals, we really need this." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We need to go and tell them, and I want to go to the United Nations and tell them exactly what I just told you. If I have to drag myself one day to stand in that podium and tell them, I will because I don’t think they’re hearing this message. I’m talking with everybody’s like, \"Oh, Mariéme. You should go and talk to them. You should go and tell this.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "No, I want to go to talk to the government, to the private sector, to investors, and so we can stop this narrative of leave no one behind, but there is no action because they do micro-actions, small conversations, write a report about it, a small partnership, or give funding to an organization that is known." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Why do you think Bill Gates and Melinda Gates are taking on the global goals. Because they have a reach, they have a platform, and they’re moving from the aid industry...If you look at it -- I was thinking yesterday -- it’s the same process." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They’ve working in the aid industry for how many years, and now they’re thinking that if we grab the global goals, we can change the narrative. We can make it better. That’s what they’re trying to do right now, and I think it’s a good cause for them to use their platform, but also I’ve learned from the mistakes." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Learned that maybe in the past we didn’t know that much, but now we’re giving voices to people. I’m a goalkeeper. I was the first one last year, that’s why I came here. This year, they’re going to have more goalkeepers, so I think that we need more people to do this work, but we need funding to do it. We need good partnerships, we need credible organizations." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I refuse partnerships, I refuse money, I refuse people dumping me their money, because I don’t want to be anybody’s slave. I don’t want to jump into a bad partnership. My credibility’s very important, so I want to make sure that I want people who will help me. When they give us their money, they can help us, help other people. That’s what my mission is right now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What about your \"champions\"? Are there partnership programs in African countries? Which countries are you working with and which countries are you planning to expand it?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The way Africa is working for us, we have technology hubs, as I mentioned. They are tech hub, they’re 442. These tech hubs, I’m just going to record myself a little bit, because sometimes I say something and I forget what I said. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will send a copy of this transcript to you." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "These 442 hubs, they were created around 2007, 2006 times. Kenya was the first hub. They are creative spaces just like C-Work in, was it in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Many of them, creative spaces, co-working spaces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which program was that?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This program, in 2009 when President Obama became president, he was the first president to actually help Africans to understand about...to help us tell our message because he’s Kenyan." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "At the same time, he doesn’t want to just show that, \"Americans, actually I just care about you guys,\" but he also wanted to show that he cares about Africa as well, and he was understanding his culture, where he came from." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is sort of apps for Africa started. I travel in many, many countries to go and find the next African innovator. I did some work on climate change issues, business challenges. These created this tech ecosystem, and now we have 442 across Africa where it’s self-run by people." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "What we do, we don’t reinvent or replicate. We go and add value. That’s what we do. All these organizations, for example in Uganda, in Madagascar, all of these countries, we go and add value. We go and tell people, \"What do you think is working? What do you think is not working? How can we add value?\" We just add value." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We add value physically by either helping them find funders, we look into the solution they’ve actually build, if this could be replicated or customized for Taiwan, or for China, or for whatever." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "People like Jack Ma, for example, he’s been benefitting from this network. Facebook is the same. Many organizations are benefitting from this tech ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "10 years ago, if you asked me if people could have done that, would they care about Africa, I don’t think so because Africa was not ready to showcase impact, but now we have amazing solutions, African inventors who are building solutions." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "What is missing is the understanding of social issues because when you live with social issues, you don’t see outside. What we’re trying to do at iamtheCODE is actually to come in and organize hackathons. They are two-days events..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re themed on SDGs?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Themed SDGs because we don’t want people to just go and organize SDG hackathons. They may not know how to do impact, but we bring the value in there. We bring the computer kit with Raspberry Pi, we have eight technologies we use." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Do you have a formal partnership with the LEGO company?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We have formal partnership with LEGO. LEGO, the digital director, he’s just left now, but he used to invite me to LEGO offices. He used to sit on our board. He still sit on the board, and so LEGO don’t create partnerships but what they do, they can give you products, so they gave us products." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like product donation?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah. They gave us products to use. When I went to Japan, I met SoftBank. They are interested in working with us to do the Pepper, the robot, so I went to see them. I had discussion with them." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They have a nice curriculum, but I would like to go again in Tokyo to see if we can actually have a corporate curriculum for Pepper." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We have the Kano Computer Kits, as you know. We work with them. We’ve been using their product for very long time now. I’m part of the conversation with them all the time, and I have a share within Kano." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The idea.org, as you know, is done by the palace, so all of these technologies are free. They’re being used, but we have now decided to create our own content, our own curriculum, the blended curriculum we want, and we want to put this on a Raspberry Pi, either Raspberry pi or another board." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It doesn’t have to be Raspberry Pi because what we think, in the next two, three years if we have this, it will be the biggest breakthrough in history on how people are learning really, because not only you have the young girls and the young boys from these communities, these marginalized areas of the world while learning, but also doing amazing work." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "In Liverpool, I had a young girl who came. She was very sad the first day she came, so she came and said to me...We invited her to come to the hackathon, and she was having some conversation, and then I said...I found her very shy. She put her glasses on, she didn’t want to speak to anybody, she was with her dad." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I said to the dad, \"What’s happening?\" He said, \"Well, she’s been having identity crisis for quite a long time.\" I said, \"OK, no problem.\" She sat down and I start talking to her." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She built an application for anti-bullying, but also to tell the world how you can actually have an identity without people bullying you. She created this solution by herself within two days, 24 hours." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "What I learned from this exercise is that with iamtheCODE, we can impact people within 24 hours. This young lady sat down, she built her own solution, she had this in her heart, this issue of identity. She wanted to come out as a young girl and she couldn’t do anything." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She built a solution. I said to her, \"What was the catalyst of for you to do?\" She said, \"Because in my school, I’m being bullied all the time. At the same time, people don’t like me because I’m very shy,\" but she’s very smart, very clever, and I said, \"Why do you want to do this?\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She said, \"I want to create a safe space for young people to go in to code their identity, and I have got the solution right now, and I want to develop this solution because you see, Donald Trump’s wife is talking about anti-bullying but she’s not doing anything about it. You know?\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s the solution?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She built it herself. I’ve got it on my system. It’s the solution she built, and so she hasn’t found a name for it yet, but it’s beautiful website design." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She wants to take this further, and so I think that we should use solutions because not only that solution is addressing reducing inequality goal number 10, but also creating conversations around these situations." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She was like, \"That’s why we have many young girls who are committing suicide, and boys, and things like that, because we’re not addressing these.\" I’m trying to use the SDGs as a way of not only educating people but informing them but also transforming." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We have something I always talk about in my talks. We try to educate, inform, and transform because I think that if you educate people, you can transform their minds in making an impact. That’s what the solutions are right now, and it’s very exciting. Whoever wants to do this with us, it’s very exciting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I mentioned in our previous conversation, I have a regular column in Taiwan’s \"Business Weekly,\" where every three weeks I write about something that I want to call the business leaders to attention, and to take some action." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the last one was about...We use machine learning to stop water leakage by allowing people to detect water leakage early." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a partnership with the Taiwan Water Corporation and the president’s office through this three-month event we call Presidential Hackathon. The people in New Zealand discovered this work, and then the team is now in New Zealand helping them to combat climate change by using AI to detect water leakage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The one before that was a partnership with MIT Media Lab. They have those self-driving small vehicles that are tricycle, the PEVs. It’s all open source, so we co-organized a hackathon in my office. My office looks like this, where we can just have orders. This is my office in Taipei. It’s built by a hundred or so social entrepreneurs." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You can have a hackathon here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is drawn by people with Down syndrome. It turns out they’re great artists." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I can tell you, because we’re working with ADHD. Have you seen them, the organization?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. The ADHD foundation?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah. I should connect you with them. They are a big organization called the...They are helping not children with Down’s syndrome, but they’re creating some people’s superpower for...I’ll show you, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Digital superhero academy?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yes, superpower. You know that. I’m sure you know that ADHD. ADHD, they are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are attention deficient." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yes. They’re a big organization in Liverpool, and they’re helping children do exactly this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Because they are very smart. They’re very, very smart. I should connect you with them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s great. This is, for example, how the partnership looks like. You just see those PEVs roaming in the Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "That’s really cool. This like a children chair?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, it’s called a PEV. [laughs] They’re self-driving. The point is that it’s open source." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Self-driving?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a self-driving tricycle. People can just go crazy with them and change, for example, to add emotion, to add where it’s looking, to allow people to understand this new species better." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "That’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like co-domesticate each other, like we and wolves co-domesticated into dogs and modern human, and the idea, the call to action was for business leaders in Taiwan too, when they think about AI, think about extended intelligence that the crowd in AI can learn from each other instead of the usual narrative of AI replacing jobs, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like machine intelligence co-living with collective inteeligence. I would love of course to..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You are the minister of digital economy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am minister of digital affairs..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Have you met some African Ministers, digital economy ministers?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just attended two meetings. One is in Edinburgh, it’s called Social Enterprise World Forum. It’s co-hosted by the Scottish Government and the British Council." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Next year, I’m going to be in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia, so I talk with many people who works in that region." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a guy called Howard who works in... His company’s called Solar Ear, solar as in solar panel, and ear as in hearing aid." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He started in Botswana, and they teach people with hearing loss using sign language to teach them electronics so they can build their own hearing aid, and it’s solar-powered so they don’t have to pay for the battery ever again, and so it’s very reusable." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people did assembly themselves, just as you said, that the people own the technology. They set the agenda as I attended..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You know that in Africa we don’t have any sign language, one of the things I’m trying to get people to invest. You know that we don’t have our own..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sign language." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah. I went to Brazil, and I met...some of the girls came to our hackathon. They don’t have the normal sign language so they use different sign language. We are leaving people behind, because they cannot understand..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, Howard was talking about that, because they have to build translators between the different sign languages." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They can’t understand, so they can’t...I’m just going to show you. They can’t understand anything, because they don’t have actually the right software. People are not even including them in the conversation, so they’re left behind in Brazil." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "My girls are using...They came to the hackathon, they’re using all these sign languages, but they’re being left behind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s something I would love to work on as well." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "So interesting, ADHD." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are also talking with the people in the SDGs for... It’s a think tank, SDG for Africa. They do the SDG index for Africa and..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "How do you read that?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "It’s SDG Center for Africa (SDGC/A) with the support of University of Columbia." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Where are they based?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Here in New York?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually it started in Rwanda; the headquarter is in Kigali." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "All right, because I know them all." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Do you know Dr. Belay Begashaw?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Belay Begashaw. That’s the name." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "He should be the former minister of agriculture or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Which country?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Ethiopia." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Addis Ababa. There are key organizations right now who are working on SDGs. I was going to show you this. There are key organizations, hundred percent you should speak to, and then I’m happy to make the connections for you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They are the data people. I don’t know if you know, but what iamtheCODE does on the data side is tracking the data for some of the part of the data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I’m aware of that." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Their organization is built around the data. It’s the data...how do you measure all the impact of SDGs or how do you create your national roadmap. I know at Taiwan you guys are being advancing in doing that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. The way we’re helping is largely on the SDSN so far. I went to Vatican for SDSN meeting with Jeffrey Sachs and friends, because it’s academic, so Taiwan has no problem attending." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We have key Africans in Kenya who are really amazing, super amazing. From the data collection to the visualization of it. You absolutely need to speak to them, and if you do any funding or anything, you can see the impact because they are there for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you know anyone working in eSwatini?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "In where?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "eSwatini. Swaziland." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously called Swaziland." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "In Tanzania?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Near South Africa." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was called Swaziland." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I know Swaziland." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "They’ve changed the name of the country. Now it’s eSwatini." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I know the minister of ICT in Swaziland." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re Taiwan’s only diplomatic ally in Africa right now..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...so any work we do physically, we need to start from there." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "From Swaziland?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, because we don’t have embassy anywhere else." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Why did you choose Swaziland? You can choose my country, Senegal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’d love to!" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is the foundation. It’s called the ADHD Foundation, and so they help children with ADHD, and they’re based in the UK. They’re super amazing. They just won an award, and so they help children with ADHD." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They give them superpower. They don’t call it disability. They call them superpower, and so they are smart, and so right now, they want us to do a hackathon with the smartest people in the room." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think they will be interesting in your program, but for Swaziland, I know people in Swaziland, but Swaziland, Lesotho, all those small countries are very interesting in partnering." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Taiwan is a country that Africa likes, but the Chinese government have scared them a lot about Taiwan, and so many African governments are scared in taking Taiwanese money because they’re scared of Chinese withdrawal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I understand that." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We’re not scared because we don’t get any funding from China. [laughs] It’s a bit political but people like Jeff Sachs, they don’t have a good brand in Africa. Their aid is very top-down, talking down to Africans, and so now you have Africans, people like us who are coming and saying, \"We’re the intellectuals.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I really think Africa needs to set your own agenda." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We’re setting it now. We have really amazing people but I think you need to speak to Philip Thigo. I don’t know if he’s here. I’m going to see today. He’s from Kenya. The president of my country is great. The president of Ghana is also good. He’s here." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They’re countries where you can really find a small partnership, and iamtheCODE could be the route for you, a small route. Usually, they don’t like doing...The way Japanese work in Africa, I think that’s how you guys should work." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Japan, they don’t like big publicity, but they are doing, for example, they invest into small organizations, and then they will let everything spread slowly, like TICAD, they have a big fund for Africa, but they don’t give the money." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The money is not yet into the African government bank account, but what they do, they will find a partnership with UN Women, or iamtheCODE, or things like that to help those people with specific projects. That’s how the Japanese, very serious people, that’s how they work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The way we have been working now, we’re not so much with Africa but with the ASEAN countries and New Zealand and so on. It’s a model which I call warm power, meaning that we solve a local issue like the water leakage with some people there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We open innovation. There’s no patents. There’s nothing like that. We make sure people they own the technology, they can either upgrade it without connecting back to Taiwan, and then once they own the technology, of course they brand it themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re totally OK with that, and of course we hope that they keep contributing back on GitHub or whatever. I think that’s the..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think that’s a good idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main idea because it’s in the SDGs. I mean, the..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "17th." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...the goal, in the 17th, is about to make sure the innovation is accessible to all, and I think this is based on...We choose partners very carefully by their ability to produce reliable data. Once they show the ability to produce reliable data, now we just transfer whatever local solutions we have." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "What is good about what you’re saying is important because the Europeans and Americans what they do, and this has been the big mistake they’ve made for the last, I will say 15 years, they haven’t educated data scientists. They haven’t created a pipeline for data scientists." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We want to create...We have 75 people who are data scientists in Africa today, so when they come to Africa, they want to talk about data collection, but Africa has got a data, plenty of data. They have metadatas everywhere. Africa is data. Everywhere. I was data when I was young." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The data exists but what doesn’t exist is, who’s going to teach them? Who’s going to teach people Excel? Who’s going to make the open data for people? Who’s going to help them understand what data is? They own information. We don’t have these sorts of schools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan has been the top one on Global Open Data Index for a few years now, so..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I know, but I’ve been saying this to people. I’ve been saying Taiwan. They say, \"Taiwan.\" I said, \"Yeah, Taiwan.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is really in line with our value because we believe that only when the people themselves own the data, like this, all the Taiwan Air Quality, these are collected by more than 2,000 people each using the air quality sensor in their home balcony and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "None of this paid by the government. It is entirely citizen science, and because of this, in other places in Asia, people will want to suppress this from the government because it threatens legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For our government, we just join them and so we say, \"In the places where you’re missing, we going to set up in the offshore wind turbines where there’s no way that the home makers can go there. We will set up our complementary systems there.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is fascinating. I don’t know if you know, but I sit on the board of the World Wide Web Foundation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I know." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "One of the biggest work right now we’re thinking about is how do you get Africa connected in the next 12 years to the SDGs. Citizen data scientists, that is why we organize hackathons, to help them understand how do you collect the data." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The biggest issue for us, in Africa, is how do we make sure the national statistics of government -- all the national statistics in 54 countries, Africa -- how do you educate them to understand data collection, number one? Number two, how do you have them open the data so they don’t feel scared?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Like in Uganda, in some countries, they see data information, fake news, all of this, because no one has done a workshop or training, even send them to Taiwan for five days for you to teach them about..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re seeing a lot of adoption of IT, but in the terms of Digital Transformation, as you can see, the communities are really key." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Nobody has ever done that. We have some data conferences now and then, but it’s just telling. It’s not like teaching them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s about empowering people to co-create." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Yeah, it’s just empowering. I think one of the things we should think about is to have even a hackathon, or an event in Taiwan, or somewhere in Africa. Ethiopia is good or Swaziland, where we have an event, and where we invite Africa data champions -- I know them a lot -- to come. That would be something great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. I tried to doing something like that in an event in Burkina Faso, but I had to appear as a pre-recording, because Burkina Faso..." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Cut the ties." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...allying with Taiwan just a week before I’m scheduled to talk... [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "[groans]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...so we’ll have to start again. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "We’re now talking about Swaziland." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "No, but you have me now. Don’t worry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great, so let’s make that happen." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The reason why they cut ties, sometimes, is because they’re scared. There’s no representative for you. Because I know Taiwan. I know how to talk about Taiwan in a more scientific and technologic way. That’s what I do." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "African government, they haven’t been to Taiwan. I don’t want them to see Taiwan as just like a funding country..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know. But what we’re now saying is that..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s more the technology..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...we can be all all working on the 17th global goal." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They need to understand the potential." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The potential is this: Because Taiwan is not a player within the UN dashboard, we can be the referees." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can work with you on collaborative governance, for example, around distributed ledgers." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "That’s true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can also be of assistance in accountability mechanisms, so that everybody keeps his word in a fair way." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The other interesting thing I think we can also do is -- one of my thinking right now is that I’m trying to speak to some people here -- hopefully by the end of the week, we can get something. Is to focus on the blockchain." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The reason why I love blockchain is because you can bring so many people to create their own blocks without nobody claiming credit for it. Remember, these African presidents, they like claiming credit for things they haven’t done." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If we create our own blockchain platform -- and I think this is what we need to do, urgently -- to create a blockchain platform on SDGs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The project of air measurement that I just mentioned is called Airbox, and it’s integrated with IOTA blockchain system, so that whenever they store in the super computer that Taiwan government offers, if they take a snapshot, store it in a public chain so people will know that government will not change the number the day before the election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very important because there are so many different sources going on. With people like the Distributed Ledger Technology Laboratory, that’s Taiwan, the Cheng Kung University. They work on Tangle identity, they worked on distributed environment data storage, they’re working on many other things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure that it can be extended into statistics tracking, mineral mining, whatever." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We need the blockchain. Right now, it’s very important that if we can get a blockchain platform on girls’...The reason why we need the blockchain platform because even girls’ education...Let’s take girls education. Very simple topic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, you need to have those paths into blockchain systems for governance to work." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "40 years, Audrey. Nearly 50 years, girls’ education hasn’t worked because I was one of them. I’m 44, so girls’ education, nobody in the world cannot tell you why girls’ education is not working. There’s investment, there’s awareness, and Michelle Obama, Malala, all of them, \"Let’s invest on goal number four, SDG Four, girls’ education.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You ask them, \"Why do you think girls are not learning? Why do you think STEM education, why do you think girls are not going into classes? Why do you think girls are dropping out?\" Nobody can answer you. Where is the money going? The classrooms? Is it for curriculum? Literacy numeracy? Nobody knows." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You go to government, remember, we’re talking about macho government who don’t understand girls’ education is important, literacy numeracy, getting the girls into a school. They don’t understand the social issues, so 45 years now... I’m nearly 50 years old." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "No, I don’t see you." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s true. Nobody can tell you where is money going in girls’ education, so I decided that this week, wherever I’m going to go, I’m going to tell them, \"Stop talking about girls’ education, to either fund girls’ education or do something about it.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I need to understand one block, which is the investment, the second block is the curriculum, and the practitioners, the teachers. How do we get girls to learn? There’s no need for Malala Yousafzai to stand up and say, \"There’s 130 million girls who don’t have access to education,\" if you can’t give me the solution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "At the moment, you’re going to hear this a lot this week, like, \"Girls’ education, girls’ education,\" and then on Friday when we leave... forget about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a platform I want to show you. It’s called Dodoker. It’s a Taiwan social enterprise. For example, they had a partnership with Yunus Social Business Center in NCU. Basically, what they do is that they use either the Ethereum blockchain to track international fund." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, this is Nepal after the flood. People really want to donate, and if it’s just any other crowdfunding platform, it would just be in bar with people talking and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Different thing that they do, the value proposition is that they use the blockchain to track where exactly has the money has gone and flowed, and it’s not in cryptocurrency. They’re still tracking fiat money, but it’s just they require the accountants in many different points to obey some very simple protocols." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The point is that nobody has to bear this very expensive KPMG audit or things like that. They just follow some multiparty protocols, and you end up with pretty pictures like where the money has flowed, where did it go, where did it pass?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if the website goes away, you can reconstruct it very easily in a few lines of code where it’s going. Very importantly, they cannot change the record. They cannot go back and say, \"I did that,\" or, \"I did not do that.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think that’s what is important. For example, if you look at one of the things I’ve been checking for the last couple of years, UNESCO, they’re the only organization, it’s not credible." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If you google UNESCO now and ask how many children don’t have access to education, the same data, 130 million, they’ve been using this for nearly five years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a clock that stopped?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It hasn’t changed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So it’s right twice a day." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The data hasn’t changed, and so I ask them, I ask the minister, I met her, I said, \"So who is collecting this data? Are you sure? Until now? 130 million?\" It’s the same data. Bill Gates use it. Melinda Gates use it. UNICEF use it." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Everybody is using the same data, so I went and challenged them. I said, \"Are you sure? Surely can I have a look at this data? How is this collected? How did you make up this number?\" None of them can tell me, and I don’t think they’re trying to cheat or anything." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I just think that no one has ever planted this seed in their head to say, \"Actually, it could be maybe 160 million. It could be maybe less than that,\" but there is no system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you mean there’s no accountability mechanism for people to answer where the number comes from?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I sincerely believe from my heart that the blockchain platform will be the best way to show if the number has gone up or down. We need to have a conversation about this 130 million because it’s going everywhere, on infographs, on the reports, everywhere." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s been happening for the last...Every year. It’s like the World Economic Forum Gender Report. Every year they had...It’s all the 10 years, another 5. I sat with the lady who’s writing it. I said, \"What is the methodology behind what you say? Because sometime you said to me it’s gonna be like this year, and then next time it’s gonna be like...You’re scaring people. Is this like a mechanism of scaring people?\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She said, \"No, but we collect the data to the consultant and to the countries.\" I just think that if we have a blockchain platform to track and then to help these people understand, the 130 million will go up or down." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "At the moment there’s no mechanism for this to go down, and if you google it right now, if you go to UNESCO website, it’s the same data, over 65 million. I have no idea where this data is coming from, and I think this..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reliable data partnerships, I think this really is it." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It has to come from an organization, credible organization, like our organization to get this done. We see the girls everywhere, but I don’t think those girls are...I was a missing data. I’m part of the missing millions. I never had a birth certificate, so I don’t think you can really count me in if I didn’t have a birth certificate." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I’m part of the missing millions of the data, that’s why I don’t understand where the data’s coming from, from UNESCO. But they have this missing million report done by the...I think it’s an organization. It’s not OECD, but there’s an organization in London." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I went to see the lady. I said to her, \"Missing millions? How many are we missing now?\" [laughs] That’s why I think it’s very urgent that we actually put a blockchain platform together about these topics. Urgently." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I was in Vatican they also talked about this issue, because people will not actually voluntarily build such a system if not for the fact that they know everybody else will recognize it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With Africa, it seems to me that everybody need to join in a fair fashion, like forced open innovation, so it will not be dominated and changed by some people." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Also, these people...For example, in my country it’s not mandatory to register your child. You don’t have to, because some women have 13 children or 10 children in some remote place of Africa. They only start thinking about birth certificate when the child is maybe 17 or 18, but it’s too late." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is one of the goals. I thought people agreed to change that situation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t have the motivation to?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "[laughs] No, they don’t have a motivation, but also there’s no mechanism. My learning about the whole thing is that if you don’t have the eggs, you can’t make omelet. This is my thinking. My thinking is if you don’t have the eggs, you cannot make an omelet." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "These people, they have the talk, they have the platforms, but they don’t have the eggs to make anything. Then the ego is so big, and also the lack of empathy and compassion that are also relating to people is not there, so all they think about, \"You know, OK. Maybe it’s gonna work.\"" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Senegal don’t even have a census. Every 10 years in the UK we have a census date, but in Senegal, it’s not even mandatory to do the census. I took this to the government of Kinshasa. If you go to Kinshasa, how many millions of people are you? One guy said 87, the other guy said 67, the other guys 57." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It depends on who does the counting. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I said to him, \"Who’s counting?\" and I said, \"OK. Who is the minister of planning?\" I said, \"Minister of Planning, est-ce que vous faites...?\" \"Oui, mais, you we doing this, we doing this.\" I ask these difficult questions. It’s not because they don’t know how to do it." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "At the ministry of planning there’s no system into place to do this, or they’re not asking the Africans, the young people who design the census app. When I went to help Kofi Annan and did the apps for Africa, what I did is that I helped them understand about census, and so we designed our own census app. How do you take the census app to give it to the government?" }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Why do you think human trafficking is high in Africa? It’s because a young girl can be taken from their country without nobody knowing. That’s how I was trafficked as a young girl. Traffickers, they can traffic easily if you don’t have a identity or birth certificate." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I said to my government, \"If you have an SPCC in the UK of somebody missing, a data somewhere, you can track people but they can’t track anyone. That’s why there’s millions of people missing around the world, because there’s no tracking system." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If you don’t have a passport, you don’t have ID card, you don’t have address, who knows? You are homeless, you’re walking on the street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sans-papiers." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "At African Ministers of the Digital Economies...We used to call them ministry of ICT, and now the African Ministers are called African Ministers of Digital Economy. I know two who I should connect you with. They’re really amazing. One of them is in Belgium, Alexander De Croo. I’m sure maybe he’s here. He’s from the ministry of Belgium." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Also, Cina Lawson from Togo, she’s a woman. A brilliant woman. She is now bringing a new solution like mapping census. She’s trying to start slow, because that’s a whole process, and she doesn’t have the funding for it. I think she’s looking for funding to do those typical big projects in her country..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m happy to get to know them." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Things like that. She’s a minister of digital economy in Togo. Brilliant. She used to live in the US and used to work for the World Bank, and she’s now gone to Togo to take that post. They have these ideas brooming and they want to do that, they want to do this. They have these ideas small projects that will help them. It’s not there yet, but they have all these ideas." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "One is from Togo, and the other gentleman is..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "From Brussels, but he’s doing lots of work now on SDGs in Africa, in Francophone Africa, because we have a..." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "He’s not African." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "He’s not African, no. But I know minister of ICT, minister of digital economies in Africa, I know most of them. If you need contact with them to either learn from them or suggest some ideas..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I said, all we want is to, for example, start a conversation about the real people need there and also empower people. This movement that I refer to over again, which I’m a part of, is called g0v, and you can check the story. I think it’s in g0v.asia, but the idea is very simple." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s that if we say anything in government in Taiwan that is not doing well, for example, the budget, or legislation or whatever, instead of complaining about a service or website, we just go and put our shadow version by changing \"o\" to a zero, so you don’t have to google. It’s very easy to find." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For every government service you can change o to a zero and get to the shadow government which is always open data and interactive. This is the first g0v project. It’s a visualization of the national budget so that people can click through each one of them and have a real discussion among themselves." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s so easy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The great thing about g0v is that because most of our work is creative commons, meaning that we relinquish most of our copyright, so by the procurement cycle comes, the government just merge it back, so it just become government service." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "It’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This year..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The website is what, gov..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "g0v. You can go to g0v.tw, but there’s many other chapters, g0v.asia...Yeah, g-0-v. Yeah, it’s a 0, .asia, and also .tw of course." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We should have this .africa. We should have this for Africa." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Whenever we travel, like when I go to Italy there’s now g0v Italy, [laughs] because as you can see, you don’t need a license from us. The logo is not trademarked. This is just a idea, and you can basically join however you want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This summit has 23 countries coming, and they all share in the same way of -- what we call -- forking the government, taking a government service, making it better, relinquish the copyright, be the government." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is amazing, because we had Kenyans. They did something where they develop a solution where they can check the salary of the ministries in Kenya. The lady who used to do that, called Ory Okolloh, she used to be the Google Policy Manager, a very, very good lady." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Now she’s working for Omidyar Network doing some investment. She was the first tech activist to talk about the expenditure of every month parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Omidyar Network people will also participate in the g0v summit." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "That’s good. That’s very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the 2017 World Congress on IT, actually g0v had its own track inviting Stephen King to come over to talk about how to spread this methodology." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So they were aware of the community." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They’re aware of it. That’s fantastic. Omidyar is good. I met him on the plane the other day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is fantastic. How can I help with this one?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, this message is very easy to spread, because this is literally just a domain name hack. Anyone in any country who is willing to improve how their country does better accountability, they can just start registering a domain name by their own." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If we want to do one in Senegal or in other countries, how do we do that? We just register a domain name?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, you just register a domain name. You don’t even have to ask me. You just register a domain name, and then we make sure that your work becomes very visible in the international platform." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "One of the thing we focus on mainly for the government sector of iamtheCODE is designing policies. Most of these African government -- they’re going to come here, you’re going to hear them out -- they have probably frameworks, you call them. Or they have wishes, I call them." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They have wishes to improve girls’ education or climate change." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If you really look into the implementation, it’s where the problem is. Then, the money that goes in sometime get diverted. What we want to do with the government, mainly, is to help them design the right solutions." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We design many of them. We want to design the right solution, but also bring accountability into girls’ education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the most important thing." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "If we can do that, that would be perfect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we can empower, because that’s your message. The student will think, with iamtheCODE, I am the one to make changes. I don’t have to wait for the government to build a code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "IamtheCODE, which is why I think this resonates with the g0v message, which is always when we find ourselves complaining \"why nobody does it?\" We can remind ourselves that we can be that nobody. Just go and do it. That’s the main idea." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is a wonderful idea. This is great. I don’t know if I’m free on the 7th. I’m going to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe one of your friends can come, or you can get someone to visit Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I’m going to Kenya, but I will..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe you can ask one of your acquaintance to come and visit." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I will see if they can come. This is going to be very, very good. If I can come to Taipei, I will definitely come. I don’t need a visa to come to Taiwan, so I came already. This is wonderful idea." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "This is good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through this civil sector and social sector collaboration, we don’t have to be institutionalized through, for example, the Taiwan government or the Taiwan Foreign Service. It could be entirely empowered by the grassroots people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure that the right people, the right technology, the right open-source projects appear there just in time, but it’s all for you openly to use or not use. I think this is one of the best way that we can do this kind of collaboration is around digital decolonization." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "No, I understand. I think it’s fantastic. I think for us this week..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Are you leaving today?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m leaving tonight, yes." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You’ll be leaving tonight. That’s fantastic. I think there are ways of working together. I’m happy to make intros for them to know that there’s another side of the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Cina Lawson, she’s brilliant, from Togo. I think she will like this because she’s very well respected now by the president because she’s very transparent and very tough woman. Also, the minister of education in Kenya. Have you met her yet? Amina Mohammed?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "She’s also a brilliant woman, and so they all like iamtheCODE. They try to help us raise funding and get the conversation going." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They’re always sharing the examples of iamtheCODE, so she’s also now the lady to...She used to head the World Trade Organization, Amina Mohammed, and then she was the Foreign Affairs Minister. Now she moved to becoming the Minister of Education in Kenya. Brilliant woman." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think they will love to...My advice is always to find a way of having a conversation between yourself as a minister. That’s probably best conversation, and then talk about tech." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "My advice is, wherever you go and meet African minister, focus on the technology you can bring, not on the relationship of Africa and Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I understand." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The technology, that’s what Africa need now. That will give you a door to be part of the conversation and help them design solutions because they’re very desperate. We have innovation in the continent. Slow innovations are starting up, but mainly, like I said, the processes are always a struggle." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "The ideation is there, the wishes are there, they all want to do something big. The Rwandese government for example, they want to digitalize all the birth certificate. I helped the Mozambican government with e-government solutions." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They all have projects like this they’re working on, or they want but sometimes the just don’t have an example, a very simple example, not too much, not too expensive to do it. Usually it’s just big ideas and they don’t have...If you can come in, if Taiwan and yourself can come in as a tech partner..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A facilitator really, and just facilitate the local people, local girls to understand the technology and maintain it." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "My advice is to always have a partner who is non-governmental, not just NGOs, but some of the NGOs are partner with government. The reason why people are partners with us because we’re not scared in saying no to government." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Always try to find an organization that is independent thinking, they can do their own thing. Sign NDA and MOU always before. Make sure that everything is clear before." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Unfortunately, there are some occasions where African government sign a partnership with a Chinese organization, and then if they hear Japan or Taiwan or Malaysia is getting involved, they give up the deal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You lose money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "You need to be careful on that. Those are my advice. For us, we’re happy to partner with you as soon as possible. Like I said to you, we would like to double up our curriculum. Anything you can help us with, we’re ready to work with you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will relay the message. You or someone you trust, if you attend a g0v summit, I will introduce personally to the people to meet on the technology front." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "We want to partner with Taiwan on the tech side. I’ll be very proud to have some of our solution designed with Taiwanese investment. I’ll be personally happy with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will also write, in my future Business Weekly columns, a little bit more about the collaborative nature of the Taiwanese civil society." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "They’re very nice people. I think they are doing amazing work, but when we went to do the SDGs in Taiwan, they were very impressed with us. If you can talk to them, by all means." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think this could be a great partnership. I think it could be a very good example for an Africa tech ecosystem to show them that they need to get out of their comfort zone to learn from..." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "I think Taiwan is very, very well-positioned to have a footstep in the continent, because the relationship China has with Africa is not what China could have. It will not be a conflict of interest. For us, it’s mainly if the African government can look into the technology you guys have and SDGs and double up them software and hardware." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The SDGs is this neutral collaboration zone. We’re not competing against anyone." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "No, I agree. That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. It’s very good meeting you." }, { "speaker": "Mariéme Jamme", "speech": "Thank you. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "主要因為在summit之前想要跟妳聊一下。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "那時跟Jaclyn在Uber的那個案子，pol.is的東西是在之前做的嗎？你進到政府裡面之後才弄的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "pol.is在2015年做的，我跟高嘉良去美國出差，我們都是在socialtext，當時確定Uber要放到「vTaiwan」討論，但是大部分的利害關係人沒有辦法上網用discourse，當時高嘉良就建議要用pol.is，那時是Jaclyn當政委的時候。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我搞錯了。我一直很在意的是，我覺得「vTaiwan」這個東西，當時蔡玉玲來提的時候，我覺得她是政委拿來，可以拿回去跟政府這邊說「因為他們的想法跟我們的想法一樣，所以就這樣」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有討論過之後跟Jaclyn的想法不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "有例子嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像個資去識別化，因為台權會的伊翎有來，還有莊庭瑞老師，所以我們那一份建議書跟蔡玉玲的想法不盡相同，我們並不同意所謂可逆轉式的代碼化，可以稱作所謂的「無從再度識別」，這個「vTaiwan」上都有很詳細的紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好，我待會去看。可是部會這邊的想法呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實會來這邊，第一輪是因為當時Jaclyn希望每一個部會都出一個題目，就是每一個相關的部會都一定要找一個題目，不管他們願意或不願意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一些部會不是很積極，也有一些部會覺得這個是行銷工具，像金管會當時要推股權式群眾募資，所以就非常地積極，等於是瞬間回。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一些是真的滿被動的，像當時教育部真的還沒準備好談遠距教育的學分授予。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以每個部會的狀態並不是Jaclyn教他們生題目就變得很主動，還是看那個題目在他們部會裡面的政策狀態。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "因為那時我收到的訊息是，「你看人家都上，我們沒有上」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，是有一個peer pressure。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所以那時的題目是像這樣的方式去？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。就是跟網路有關係的，因為當時這個是蔡玉玲管所謂的「虛擬世界法規調適」，所以跟這個有關係的每一個部會都來挑。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是跟業管的東西？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，當然有一些題目，像法務部發現這個平台不錯，他們也有想要自動加盟，但是有一些不在Jaclyn的業管，像婚姻平權，又或者是有一些不適合透過這樣的方式來討論，所以後來「vTaiwan」並沒有加這一些上去，唯一的例外是律師法，等於「vTaiwan」借平台給榮志跟雨蒼用。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "後來沒有架完？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "律師法嗎？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "律師法本來就不是在「vTaiwan」列管的，等於只是讓他們借用Discourse。如果到meta看的話，它不算在裡面。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所以這一些東西是有被列管？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，當時在虛擬世界法規調適方案也有定期的會議，都要上來回應有多少人觀看、多少人回覆，大家的留言都會印出來變成紙本。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "那後來為什麼就沒有？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來「虛擬世界法規調適方案」改組了。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "那個是政府計畫嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "它同時是一個科發基金提案，另外一個是「推動虛擬世界法規調適打造友善法規環境」，那個是方案。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "類似像DIGI⁺的東西？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是類似的東西，是2014年核定，有一個部會分工，這個部會分工裡面會盤點所有的中長期要做的事情，但是這一個方案是2014年12月核定的。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是前朝的方案？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。當時是十年計畫的第一期。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "第二期就沒有繼續了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來就改名叫做「數位經濟法規調適」。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所以現在還有嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「數位經濟法規調適」這個名字還是有的。但是後來因為「vTaiwan」討論了一陣子之後，後來有些是平台經濟的部分，就變成由「新創法規調適平臺」處理，有一些是沙盒，就跑到沙盒那邊去，因此滿多的，但是雨傘還是叫做「數位經濟法規調適」。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "部會之所以來這邊提案，是藉由這一個東西下的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我們現在分組就是DIGI⁺，然後數位國家分組、法規調適，現在是放在這一條線裡面。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "DIGI⁺下面的數位國家分組？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "DIGI⁺是大的，裡面有非常多個分組，每一個分組有自己的任務，然後其中有一個叫做「數位國家分組」，也就是對內的是治理方式調適。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一個分組裡面有許多工作，這一些工作如果你看組織架構的話，他做的事情是數位政府，也就是我們的資料、法制環境及資通安全，所以現在「vTaiwan」是在「數位國家創新經濟推動小組」底下的「數位分組」的「法制環境」。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可是也不一定是要透過「vTaiwan」吧！就是現在的架構下？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在的架構，按照行政院數位國家創新經濟推動小組設置要點，是每一個分組可以自己選擇要用什麼樣的方式，去完成那一個分組的任務。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "法制環境因為是法協作為主要的幕僚單位，所以基本上我們這個分組會尊重法協的考量，也就是覺得哪一個案子適合那個程序，就會用那個程序；如果覺得某個案子不適合公開討論，也許就不公開討論。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "但是以前的話，是由小松決定嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個有一點像「亞洲‧矽谷」，要討論什麼其實可以是部會想討論、也可以民間想討論，有一個固定的平台是把民間想討論的丟上來，丟上來之後，部會願意接球，我們就討論，如果沒有部會願意接球，表示目前沒有辦法討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實DIGI⁺不管是在分組層級或者是大會層級，也都是這樣的情況，會有民間諮詢委員會，DIGI＋裡面也有民間的委員，這個是兩級。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "作為委員是本來就可以提案，提案會列入管考，部會就有回應的義務，但是部會的回應也可以是他們現在沒有辦法處理，這也是有可能的。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "「vTaiwan」就是把民間諮詢委員變成大家，這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「vTaiwan」等於是一個常設的機制，讓大家即使不是民諮會的成員、不是DIGI⁺小組的代表，也可以透過小松的方式，把你的提案放到小組看得到的地方，這樣子的話，只要民間團體代表也好，或者是數位國家小組的召集人或者是分組召集人，覺得這一件事值得討論，就會協調部會，等於是比照委員提案，去提出回應。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "像這樣子的接口還是法協？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是數位國家分組裡面的法制環境幕僚。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "主要的那個是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "分組有兩位共同召集人。在法制上是陳主委，在技術上是我。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "陳主委是陳美伶？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，數位國家分組召集人是兩個，不過當然都會互相copy。好比像Open API之類的。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "議題跟技術相關的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像跨部門資料整合，裡面一定有法律的部分、也有技術的部分，所以才會變成雙召集人的制度。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "目前討論都比較偏法律那邊？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有不少技術的，其實。我們在數位國家分組裡面，有的時候是技術先行，然後上位再有一個法律。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是開放資料交換嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "跨部會資料那邊。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "不是開現在這幾場嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這幾場技術的成分比較少，但是以「vTaiwan」其他的案子來講，其實也不乏技術的部分，像剛剛講到的個資去識別化的那一案，技術非常重。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好，那我再去看那個。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "不知道耶！我總覺得 vTaiwan 好像沒有政委就不行。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "不想要這樣（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有的話，就要掛到一個常設組織裡面，你要變成某一個幕僚機關的業務裡面，就有這個部分。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "但是其實也不一定要是「vTaiwan」，對不對？要有一個開放的平台。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是數位通傳法裡面的寫法。其實數位通傳法是上位法，所以按照這個配套，行政院應該要有像要點來落實數位通傳法的要求，而這個要點怎麼寫就會很重要，也就是會變成是在院級，好比像這個如果是由科會報執行，這樣子的話，就會是科技政委主導，又或者是到回到數位國家創新小組，那就是數位小組的召集人，也就是國發會的主委。又或者是可以指派任何一個機關來做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實本來數位通傳法的寫法是「政府應建立公眾諮詢參與機制，相關團體組織基於網路治理精神建立時，政府應該支持與協助」，所以並沒有說民間只有一個，民間可以有非常多個。但是政府的誰跟民間的誰接頭，法律裡並沒有講，只是說政府應建立而已。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所以目前的接頭是政委嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前接頭，理論上是數位國家分組。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是剛剛講的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，幕僚也是法協跟資管處。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "但是這一些方案也是改來改去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "數位國家分組是很穩定的，是有一個核定版，也就是DIGI⁺小組設置要點，從去年10月開始就很穩定了。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "但是位階是？比較像政策或者是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "它的位階就是行動方案，也就是到2025年，是一個長期的行動方案，八年期。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "行政命令？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在院內是一個方案和會議編制。但是你說它是否需要法律，這個不需要，是行政院就可以設立的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果需要穩定的法律，還是要到數位通傳法。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "妳覺得現在「vTaiwan」的問題是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在數位通傳法三讀之前的話，部會到底能討論什麼，或者是部會非得討論什麼不可的拘束力很小，所以只能部會想討論的；反過來，部會也只能討論社群想討論的，這樣的交集就有限，這個大家很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "數位通傳法裡面講的，包含通訊傳播發展治理、科學技術創新運用、弱勢權益、多元文化、保護個人生活私密領域、個人意見目的創作自由、公用性質之……這個比較像網路中立性，及新的技術在網路上的互通運用，至少有八點是很明確，就是要用多方利害關係人的方法來討論；如果法有明訂就比較容易，因為各部會就會說循數位通訊傳播法，所以把這一些東西拋出來討論。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可以做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以確保按照數位通傳法的說明，網際網路之健全發展，有賴個人團體組織政府各利害關係人共同對話，所以基於網路治理之精神去建立對話的這一種方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得現在能做的是把「網路治理之精神」，這幾個字讓大家有一些明確的想像，因為如果沒有的話，法律是行同具文。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "「網路治理之精神」……可是目前也是覺得我不知道這幾個案子，比較像智庫開一個諮詢平台在這邊，但是感覺也有他們想要去做的方向，那個方向都已經很固定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，所以這個是為什麼要把所謂的網路治理之精神……現在的問題是每一個承辦的單位，如果沒有參與過國際上的網路治理，當然就是用本來治理的習慣來處理，因為他並不知道網路治理是怎麼做，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，網路治理這個在國際上都是行之有年，所以有非常多的文獻，像NII的Vincent翻譯了很多，並不是大家沒有聽過或者是學理不知道，是實際的操作上，也就是操作多方利害關係人的實踐並沒有很熟的一群人會做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我覺得現在能做的，當然是多參與網路治理的相關活動，好比說APrIGF、TWIGF。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "那個是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "網路治理論壇，這個是線上就可以參加的。所以在這一個過程裡面，也就是這個法律裡面寫的東西，因為當時「vTaiwan」的流程也是參考Internet Society的網路治理流程來設計的，可以說是完全同一個脈絡下的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得大家對於這一個脈絡越熟，之後在落實的時候，就很像不會被現有智庫熟悉或者習慣的方式牽著走，就會說去哪裡有看過等等。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可是他們如果不想配合也沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就要看，如果智庫不想配合的話，因為數位通傳法講得很清楚，並不是特定的智庫，而是只要民間有人、有能力用這樣的方法來進行討論，數位通傳法就會說政府就要支持。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果民間沒有用這樣的方法來進行討論，一個也沒有，等於這一條沒有寫。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所以現在的「vTaiwan」是沒有能力做這一件事的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是這樣講，有能力跟沒有能力並不是一個二元對立的東西。我們在多方利益關係人裡面，好比像盡可能共識驅動的決策，或者是分散式的多方利害關係人生態系統，也就是誰都可以自己來召集，有一些很基本的東西，「vTaiwan」確實是有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是除此之外，還有網路治理的方法，而這個方法的熟悉程度或者是熟練的程度等等，這個當然還在培養。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實多方利益關係人跟傳統最大的差別，也就是「誰參加就一起負責」的態度，而不是很像單一的主導者態度，有了這個，其他別的都可以長得出來。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所謂決策是說在做最終的那個決策，可是現在建議性質的話，決策還是回到部會或者是智庫？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本來像多方利益關係人討論之後，像網路霸凌的時候，討論完之後，甚至很多是要民間來做，並不是政府來做，其實「vTaiwan」整個概念就是我們討論完之後，大家各自有各自要做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像最近要做宣導、問卷的等等，最後的結果不一定是只有拘束到部會，說不定也拘束到所有在中間因為討論，所以願意多做一些事的人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你剛剛講說只有部會有拘束力，部會不做就沒有事情發生了，也不見得是這樣，當然有一些案子，看起來是這樣子，因為要立法；但是如果不是立法，而是比較行政規則、行政命令、要點層級的話，其實實際執行還是有賴於大家要如何執行這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像最近的例子就是平台經濟的要點，如果訂在那邊沒有人用，等於沒有人訂。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "平台經濟那個要點還是要由部會去使用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我就是在講這個，像平台經濟要點訂出來，如果不是好比像Upark真的去遞案子，交通部真的去協調財政部，那這一個要點放在那邊等於沒有用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思是，多方利害關係人機制，並不是交通部自己忽然很想來處理停車位就可以自己做事，而是一定要有民間的其他利害關係人；反過來講，民間的利害關係人出來時，如果我們沒有用要點，交通部也沒有必要收單。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思是，這幾個角色是缺一不可的，這個是多方利害關係人「機制」的意思。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "那個要點有辦法成為請求權嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你說在法律上嗎？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對，像平台的那一個要點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是公正程序請求權這樣嗎？或者是什麼請求權？請求的標的是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "像交通部願意做這一件事好了，如果交通部不願意做這樣協調的時候，你可以拿那個要點去請求他做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你說「因應平台經濟法規調適原則」在法律上的力量，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「平台經濟法規調適原則」是行政院院函，當然各部會理論上是要答應才對，就是說可以拘束到部會，因為是行政院所屬各機關。第四點是「應就權責所涉，新興平台經濟適其檢討修正」，所以在這一個情況下，這個是「應」，第三點也是「各機關並應配合國發會協調結果辦理」，所以這個是很硬的，並不能說我不想見這個提案，這個算不算請求權，我不知道，但是因為是特別在講行政院所屬特別機關的「應」。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是他們內部的規範。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。但是這個原則本身也是「vTaiwan」形成的，「vTaiwan」的機制一直在形成一些讓未來不一定需要經過「vTaiwan」，但是還是可以有相等程度的民間提案或者是參與權的一些東西，平台原則是一個、當然數位通傳法是另外一個。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我知道平台的那個。是通傳法那一個？這變成有兩條路，之後通傳法那邊過了的話，我是覺得「vTaiwan」這邊的能量很不夠，因為你要拿出好的東西，人家才有辦法去接受你的東西，不然其實也沒有必要有「vTaiwan」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過反過來講，你也是要有一定拘束力的題目，大家才會真的願意投入力氣來協作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以基本上我們現在做的很多都是算練習的工作，也就是讓部會理解到這一件事首先不會咬人，第二個是如果有意思的事情，可以聯絡到部會本來不認識的人來做出有意義的討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實就像你所說的，如果真的之後量一大，像每個禮拜的案子，這樣我們就要動員到數位通傳法裡面政府一律支持的部分。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "你說像郁溏的計畫？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就要看行政院怎麼做了，就會變成是我們可能要有一個相應的要點，去落實數位通傳法的那一條。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可是也不能等他。他應該會自己想要弄一個平台吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個都很難講，因為「vTaiwan」本來也是科法所幫忙做出來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼說要等的原因是，沒有人知道三讀通過的數位通傳法的最後那兩條會長什麼樣子，理論上立法院在三讀前都可以改的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是有了那個，行政院才可以做相應的作業；在沒有這個法之前，目前就是用數位國家分組來做，確實就是如你所說的，拘束力只僅於國發會及國發會所訂各要點說「應配合國發會辦理」的這一些部分。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "如果國發會不想做這一些事就沒有辦法了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是要點也拘束國發會，像平台經濟要點也拘束國發會，並不是是否想做的問題，而是應協調各機關。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你只能說，如果協調的方式完全不讓民間參與，這個當然也有可能，對不對？但是目前看起來，是在一個平衡的狀態，如果有明文要有民間參與的部分，那這樣子的話，國發會會願意按照那一個像平台經濟讓民間參與，如果沒有民間參與的部分，或者是民間參與的部分沒有明文訂之，國發會會以政治上可行的程度讓民間參與。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好喔！但是還是很依賴國發會法協那邊丟東西過來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前唯一有明文是數位國家的法制分組，那個是法協作為幕僚，還有平台經濟法規調適方案，那個也是法協作為幕僚，目前有明文訂之，雖然都不是法律層級。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩個幕僚機關都是同一個，也就是法協。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "郁溏說明年法協可能不會有這個計畫？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果數位通傳法過了的話，只是要行政院接，行政院是不是國發會接，國發會是不是法協接，這就都不一定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有數位通傳法，那本來按照數位國家的這個小組或者是平台經濟參考原則，法協還是得做這一件事，只是不一定用科法計畫做，說不定用一般的公務預算做，這個都有可能。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就找一個智庫去做民調之類的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可能不至於到找智庫做民調的程度。我的意思是，科發計畫是必須要對社會科學、經濟科學有貢獻，必須要有新的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你要做的事情跟今年完全一樣，那其實法協自己有公務預算，找公務預算做就行了，並不是不做，而是經費來源會不同。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可能不是從科發這邊過來的，就不需要遵照科發？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "科發就回到科發的管考。科發跟一般業務預算最大的差別，是科發由科技會報辦公室管考。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我想的比較跳脫是政府計畫這一塊，我後來才想說先弄社群這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對啊！" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可是我覺得好像搞砸了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有啊！還是來吃Pizza，有人就有希望。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本來就是這樣。因為「vTaiwan」所在的網路空間是不用錢的，那個是你有沒有計畫都一定可以持續的東西。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以不存在對計畫的依賴性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "實際上需要的可能meeting的空間，而目前是用社創，而社創中心至少在接下來的四年穩定計畫去支持它。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這也不是依賴於政委，這個是寫在社會創新行動方案裡面的，所以社創方案其實也是脫離政委，只要還有社創方案，那就還有社創中心。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只要還有社創中心，這個地方就可以用，因為就寫在社創方案裡面。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我們寫在社創方案裡面，是只要從事創新的事情就可以提供這樣的場地？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你只要講得出你對SDGs有什麼貢獻，只要講得出對SDGs的具體貢獻就可以，當然SDG 17是「vTaiwan」的貢獻，甚至17點多是非常容易講得出來，因為這樣的關係，當然不會借不到場地的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管是對哪一個政委，「vTaiwan」講得出來我們做的是第17點幾這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我們以為是進駐廠商才行，後來不是有改？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有，還是一樣。SDG17.17、SDG17.18、SDG17.6，你只要講得出對SDGs的扣合，就可以借用場地來辦活動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要求是對永續發展有幫助，你是公開的，並不是閉門會議，而是願意讓大家知道你在做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "這個是理論上，像本來用的A8、A9那一間本來就沒有借用的名單上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個是長期借用。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我在借用的時候他們會說「你們辦公室的人可以自己開門」，這個是實質上的……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是廚房或者是發夢源，那個是你講的用法就可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "A9是長期性的，我們是在這裡作業。但是也不是說一定要用「vTaiwan」這一個名義去借，你只要推動公民科技、強化社創營運模式，每一年至少六案，所以你只要講得出公民科技，然後強化社創營運模式，能夠拉更多人來社創中心——「vTaiwan」真的有把人拉到社創中心的功能——在這六案裡面至少算一案，也就是用某種方式達成就可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這都是明文寫的，這個是社創方案第12頁，在創新育成項下，經濟部擴展實驗機制、運用公民科技擴展實驗範圍的那一個KPI。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "你可以講到幾點？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們也不知道，可以講到要去立法院，所以大概是2點吧！我也不確定。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我等一下1點30分要……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "知情討論這一塊，我覺得沒有在做知情討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是說沒有知情，或者是沒有做討論？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是沒有著重在這一塊，我覺得很不滿意。如果要說什麼，也就是沒有在做的事情，那就是這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，很好，那就這樣講，但是你還是要講清楚，也就是知情怎麼樣可以做得更好，或者是怎麼樣可以做得更好。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "現在以智庫的架構，我真的不知道要怎麼做，因為他們都已經弄好了，也沒有辦法去動它。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想社群在知情上還是有一些幫助。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "擴散這一件事被討論的功能？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有人真的看不懂智庫提出來的那一些字，社群是不是幫忙改一下，並不是對事情完全沒有貢獻，而是對智庫提出來的藍本跟底本，你覺得對於知情實在是不足，這樣還是在討論的軸線上，也就是知情是重要的，智庫的討論習慣好比像專家學者的focus的group，那裡面對知情的材料要求跟擴大到利益關係人是不一樣的，你用這樣的脈絡去講，大家會聽得懂。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好，我想想。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "覺得不能這樣子一直下去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也不會這樣一直下去。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "為什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "法律應該還是會通過的，它是CPTPP法案之一。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我是說「vTaiwan」本身。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那就要看接下來的題目了，如果開始比較有挑戰的題目來，「vTaiwan」接得下來，或者是有充足的資源，它會有一個正向的循環。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "所謂充足的資源是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像一個部會很想討論這一件事，願意投全職的人員下來幫忙規劃，那這樣子的話，至少人力資源就比較不缺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "反過來講，如果你覺得一開始inform的材料不夠好，你要找圖文不符、臺灣吧進行設計，那當然他們要收錢，所以這也是另外一種資源。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "臺灣吧一個影片是要50萬元以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我講的就是這一種。如果找他們的話，也許知情的狀態會變好。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對啊！但那就是資源，就是錢，而且如果出這個東西的話，他就會想要把它修到想要的方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不一定，這個就是數位通傳法的文字奧妙所在，這個是民間主導討論，政府應該要支援，這個是數位通傳法與以前最大的差別。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "可是這個也很奇怪。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會啊！一定都不奇怪。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "一定都要支援你嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要先符合網路治理的精神。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "這個也是不確定法律概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，所以要透過實踐確定它，這個沒有辦法，一定都是這樣子。我的意思是，不可能待在原地不動，最可能的是各方試著實作，慢慢凝聚到臺灣做網路治理，也就是有許多符合這個條件的社群，這個是最簡單的。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我昨天在想還是要群眾募資之類的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也可以啊！都可以。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就是覺得好像都一直……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "訂閱式群眾募資？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "訂閱式「vTaiwan」。就是覺得「vTaiwan」一直依賴人家的資源，一直都是政府這邊過來的，其實它跟……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「vTaiwan」真的沒有拿什麼政府的錢。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對，是沒有。但是就能量這一塊，最終還是錢堆出來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你要就得……行動足夠有意義，以至於圖文不符願意免費幫你做，這樣就沒有錢的問題。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是公益主張。如果沒有到這麼大的社會公益，那當然我們就必須從裡面找到錢，是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我就是在想說，是不是「vTaiwan」這邊也要開始找錢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是我覺得還是要看討論題目，像當時臺灣吧，是因為要拍某些特定的歷史題目，他是拿這一些題目去募資。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "其實找不到題目要拍，對不對？我記得一開始。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來他們群募是因為拍了一集很好，等於拿那個讓大家覺得動畫臺灣史是一個有意義的歷史教學，也就是有群募的意義，但是群募的過程中也會調整怎麼想，我會覺得你如果沒有題目的話，大概沒有辦法一下子就發動群募。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "當然沒有辦法，其實禮拜三的小松有討論到這一件事，在擔心明年如果沒有預算，部會就不會來了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "部會來不是衝著錢來的。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我說不是衝著錢來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有到這個程度，不是這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "問題還是一個額外的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "問題並不是法定的職務，而且時間上對他們來說也是一個負擔，對他們來到這邊不一定取得他想要的收獲。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果偶爾能夠解決問題當然很好，但是目前並不總是有那麼強的互信。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對。而且最近我覺得可能跟法協的同仁也沒有那麼好吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實主要是法協現在的角色比較尷尬，因為社群想討論的題目，是他是事實上作為主管機關的題目，這個就跟以前幫忙協調別人是完全不一樣的，就是說如果是叫別人來，他應該很願意，但是現在剛好討論這個題目，本來主管的性質沒有那麼強，但是現在主管的性質越來越強，這個時候就會有角色的困難，這個也是真的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果下一個題目忽然不是他們當主管機關，又會回到比較良好的互動。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "是嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我滿確定的。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好喔！不知道耶，有覺得我可以做什麼嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你可以參加summit，就讓實際情況讓更多人知道，這樣子也許大家就會有新的跳坑方式。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對啊！但我在想我是不是不應該在summit講一些東西，因為現在「vTaiwan」在國外的宣傳，PDIS 好像都沒有講到問題這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "一定要把臺灣打造成一個民主的燈塔嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個就是專案名稱，「vTaiwan」裡面有Taiwan。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像g0v最厲害的就是這個名字。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你到哪裡，像我下個禮拜要參加義大利g0v預算視覺化的開幕典禮，厲害的地方是根本也不用問過誰，註冊一個網域就上了，所以這一種傳播其實很大的程度上是脫離我們，我們沒有辦法去控制人家怎麼想。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "你說g0v或者是vTaiwan？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "都是，因為這個都是一個概念。所以我覺得我們現在要關注的反而是……" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "我就自己講我想講的喔！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對啊！本來就是這樣子，因為接下來的工作跟之前所謂g0v六年以來什麼，本來就不一定要有那麼大的關係，就是一個空間，禮拜三出現，大家全部翻掉都可以。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "就拿summit來當作宣傳好，叫大家來吃Pizza。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "嗯嗯。至少來吃Pizza，討論一下接下來要怎麼弄，因為大家吃Pizza沒有負擔，你們不是說吃了Pizza就上了船嗎？不是說連著一年都要來，沒有這一種問題。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，謝謝。這一段有要做逐字稿嗎？" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "不知道耶！都可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那我們先請Wendy做，然後做完再來看要改哪一些部分。" }, { "speaker": "仔魚", "speech": "好啊！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那先這樣。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家好，我們準時開始，這一次其實是林雨蒼帶，我坐在這邊是確保有逐字紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前前面的討論我大概看過了，看起來其實內政部、海委會對這一個題目都有做過一些討論，接下來直接請林雨蒼幫忙帶。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們先請海委會跟海管處依序報告目前這一案的進度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一樣今天的發言是會做逐字紀錄，逐字紀錄大家都會收到，編輯十個工作天，也就是兩個禮拜之後我們再對外公開，如果確定要開協作會議的話，也有一個可能性是開完協作會議的當天公開。不然的話，我們一樣是十個工作天之後公開，原則是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請海委會先報告。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "首先謝謝政委召開這一次的會議，先說明海委會的基調供會議參考。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "1.依據本會主委於第9屆第5會期立法院業務報告備詢內容以及6月5日接受中央社專訪表示，本會除戮力貫徹使太平島成為「南海人道救援中心」政策指示外，並應使海洋發揮「公共財」之最大效果，讓南海朝向和諧、柔性的方向發展，未來也規劃開放短期休閒觀光。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "2.再者，經查相關學術文獻與專家學者意見，多數主張開放觀光，但須兼顧生態保育、環境維護等面向，在環境承載量可容許下，進行全盤考量與規劃，可見東沙島開放觀光為民意所趨，亦為「國家公園管理法」所賦予「國民育樂」使命。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "3.綜上，本會立場基調為在不影響珍貴生態環境前提下，秉持聯合國永續發展目標之精神，兼顧環境、經濟、社會三主軸，有限度(按季節、分區等)開放大眾觀光，並建議後續的經營管理，在法制面尚未定調（國家公園管理法與海洋基本法）之過渡時期，現階段由海管處與本會共同合作，並邀集利害關係人一起討論，以求周延。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請問你們透過這一案要處理的是什麼？你們想要瞭解的是，在什麼樣的狀況下來開放觀光，你們要釐清的是不是這樣的問題？又或者是有什麼地方是你們還需要釐清的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣的討過程或結果，是不是會與法律位階的事情有影響？" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那有沒有希望我們怎麼樣影響或者是介入海洋國家公園法的討論？" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "有關內政部國家公園管理法的部分，本會將與內政部協調與研商。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們再請海管處說明一下目前的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "海管處報告。東沙環礁國家公園成立當時，行政院核定的政策是要求海洋國家公園管理處必須以環境復育為優先，訂定相關復育指標，等資源復育達到一定程度才開始推動生態旅遊及環境教育這兩項工作。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "依照本處106年的現場監測資料，當地珊瑚礁的平均覆蓋率已經達到50％以上，最優良的地區已經到了80％，所以本處也在同一個年度委託了專業機構進行生態旅遊規劃，現階段受託專業機構已完成期末相關報告，並嘗試要引進廠商試辦。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "這個引進廠商試辦的勘查原定在9月份要上島，但是因為當天天氣的關係班機無法起飛，所以到現在還沒有成行。但是不管如何，在整個規劃案的定調，是初期由海管處試辦。整本規劃報告書面資料豐富，我想細節南以在這裡一一敘明，這裡先行略過，有機會再詳細說明。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二個部分，有關於法律位階的問題，據我所知，目前以基本法為法規名稱，而且與國家公園經營管理比較直接相關的是原住民基本法，原住民基本法跟國家公園法兩者規範內容是有些不同的。針對這些不同地方，法務部已提出原則性的解釋，認為兩個法基本上可以是互相補充的；換句話說，任何一個行為都要同時符合原住民基本法和國家公園法，兩者並不存在普通法與特別法關係，没有哪個法特別優先的問題，除非法條當中有排除條款，否則就兩者都要符合規定。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "現在海洋基本法還在立法的過程中，我們看到的草案都是比較屬於政策宣示性的內容，所以對於這個內容，以後跟國家公園法是不是有任何的扞格，我們還不知道，想必會有和理機制與規定才是。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第三，我們發現海洋委員會所提供的資料可能誤用了早期的資料，這或許是海管處的疏忽，因為今年4月28日海洋委員會成立之後，本處理應趕快找時間去跟黃主委說明東沙環礁這個地區的經營管理狀況，可是本處沒能做到這一點，也導致海洋委員會在這個議題上誤用90年張文玲教授所提報告內容的可能，因此也才有今天現場看到的心智圖示，要劃設海洋保護區之類的各等資訊。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "有關張文玲教授90年間提出按照IUCN標準劃設海洋保護區的這個倡議，行政院92年間就做了回應，回應內容主要是決定東沙環礁這個地區要設置專責機構，籌設海洋型國家公園，這就是96年間成立東沙環礁國家公園的主要由來。由於該向倡議已經獲得採納，建議主席考量該心智圖是否仍有保留必要，如果要留著，建議宜逐點確認及修改，以符合現況，也避免令人有高雄市政府計畫要在東沙劃設保留區的印象。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "其實國家公園就是按照國際保育聯盟，也就是IUCN所訂的保護區相關規定去做的，IUCN訂定保護區有六個等級，「國家公園」這個等級在中華民國已經是保護管制最嚴格的區域，如果高雄市政府還有意在這個地方再劃設一個保護區，我不曉得那個層級應該要訂在哪裡比較好，如果是一至五的等級以下，那麼劃設保護區意義就不存在了，所以我們認為這個部分是不是要再審慎評估？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第四個部分，我們報告的是，這個地方既然要開放觀光，海委會的長官說明得很正確，國人確實有這樣的期待，目前海管處也已經達成了前述行政院交付的復育指標門檻，而且也已經全力在推動中。所以本處認為今天討論的題目應該已經不是東沙島應否開放觀光，而是東沙島是否擁有已達到符合辦理生態旅遊的能量，這比較接近需求。在這樣的情況之下，當然推動生態旅遊的過程不免會面臨一些必須解決的問題，請示一下主席，要現在講嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想先確認這邊的理解是相同的，因為海管處已經提出來，其實好像沒有人反對要開放生態旅遊的這一件事，所以希望對於這一件事的討論標的可以再往前推進一點，變成是我們是把所有可能促成旅遊的人邀過來，而不是來討論要不要開放旅遊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個牽涉到主題變更，是不是先請海委會這邊有相關的想法或覺得怎麼樣說明？" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "本會同意內政部所提有關生態旅遊的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請繼續。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "感謝海委會長官的支持。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "首先，推動東沙生態旅遊交通問題是首要必須解決的。現有機場跑道有1,500公尺，一般七十人坐的客機是可以起降的，現況也有飛機在起降，只是一周只有一個班次，主要的用途是讓駐島人員、工作人員上、下島使用，其他人員若想要搭乘，必須要經國防部安全查核同意。由於機場區屬於軍事管制區，所以第一步就是機場宜改為軍民共用。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二步是機位數量的協調。剛剛有報告過，如果海管處要試辦生態旅遊的話，初期的目標是每一周要三班的飛機，也就是把現況一周一班的機位數平均分配到三班飛機上，剩下的機位才是海管處辦理生態旅遊的機位，也就是提供駐島人員、工作人員上、下島使用機位維持不變，只是平均分配到三班飛機上而已，當然，這只是初步構想，機位數以及相關經費的分攤都可以再協商。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第三步是交通部要核准航權。初步構想是採取包機的形式，試辦期間一周三班，營運期每日一班，但是這個可能須要交通部能夠同意這樣的處理形式。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "其次是基本設施供應能量問題。我們目前獲得的訊息是未來島上的人數應該會比現在多，我個人推估含生態旅遊人數應再600人上下，以下談的就是以600人做基礎的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第一，電力供應，以目前的供電能量，大概勉強可以，但是目前的發電系統有兩部機組已經相當老舊了，所以可能有一部分的發電機組需汰換更新。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二，生活用水供應，目前島上的海水淡化能量以東沙指揮部的最高，如果再加上九組RO的話，每一天可以達到90cmd（噸）以上，海管處目前也有30噸的能量，108年也會再增加40噸，所以兩個機關加起來的總海水淡化能量，已經足以供應600人所需，短時間內沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第三，廢汙水處理，這個問題在高雄市政府協助下已經籌得1億6,000萬元，目前正在設計中，預定108年會開始進場施工，問題可以解決。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第四，餐飲供應，將來這個事情要委託專業廠商辦理，專業廠商進來之後，是不是有能力自設廚房是個很大的問題，這部分是不是可以跟東沙指揮部協調看看，試辦期間每周約140人，東沙指揮部應當有能力可以協助，當然，這只是構想，細節還須協商。未來進入營運期之後，餐飲供應究係由東沙指揮部代辦或由專業廠商辦理，須先期協處。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第五，住宿空間，試辦期間將以整修國際海洋研究站、漁民服務站、職務宿舍及若幹線有閒置空間供應。營運期間將設置遊客服務及住宿中心，以80個房間為目標，其中公務使用剩餘部分始做為生態旅遊住宿空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你是說廚房嗎？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "東沙指揮部廚房現在有十幾個人。如果用指揮部的廚房，人力不夠的話，也可以委外聘請人協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們請高雄市政府表達一下看法。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "主席、高雄市政府海洋局代表高雄市政府來報告，從民國88年我們設了東沙漁民服務站，其實高雄市政府在那邊一直都有漁民服務站，其實那邊都有委託海巡幫忙經營、調度給漁民若急需使用，或者是相關的人上岸使用的部分，其實海管處對於東沙這十幾年來的海洋保育及復育是滿有成效的。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "高雄市政府在海委會及海管處希望在東沙推動生態旅遊或者是環境教育工作的部分，我們當然絕對支持且樂觀其成。但是海管處這邊報告其實有一些因素，我們可能必須要思考，因為剛剛講的這一些，不管是交通因素或者是水、電、廢水，又或者是食宿、垃圾的這一些因素，其實不能分開看，我們是要放在一起看，分開看每一個問題都是ok的，但是每一個問題放在一起，像以電的因素來講，我們如果以現況來講，以現況來看電的需求是對的，但是處理廢水的時候，處理量增加了，人在那邊如果是夏天，對空調或者是電的使用量會增加。因此，這個部分我們建議是要比較周延的考量，我們做這部分的建議。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "其實我們到東沙去有很重要要解決，一個是東沙看要怎麼樣去，如果當天往返，其實我們也去過一、兩次及兩、三次，當天往返其實對觀光客而言的吸引力是不夠的，要就要停留一至三天的時間，當他停留的時候，接下來食跟宿部分的因素就相對來了。吃的不只是廚房，增加的時候，所有的食材大部分都是要從本島送過去的，可能要增加運輸的部分，運輸過去可能會增加冷藏、保存的需求，因此我們建議這一個部分可能要整體考量。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "高雄市政府這邊其實我們提出一個發想跟政委報告，這一些問題要解決之前，其實高雄市政府有一個建議，我們是不是可以先試著讓我們的遊艇先去，我講為什麼的原因？因為臺灣在遊艇的製造，magaya在2018年是佔第四位，其實臺灣有滿多人喜歡遊艇、想要遊艇，但是有遊艇的點，最多是跑到小琉球、澎湖的幾個小島，其實吸引力相對不高，從高雄到東沙島240海里，比較大型的遊艇。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛好來回。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "而且遊艇本身就提供住了，因為遊艇本身就具備住的能力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "開過去要多久？" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "大概半天多一點，因為開遊艇的人在海上。如果大型遊艇本身有海水淡化的能力、住宿的能力，去的時候可以準備油料及食物，在島上的負荷會降低，先行試試看，這部分會先解決一些初期協調的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "遊艇本身也可以形成一個遊艇租賃的部分，也不一定是遊艇擁有者自己才能去，而是形成遊艇租賃或者是遊艇航班的部分，這部分在高雄其實有一些遊艇的經營碼頭、單位，他們其實是有在經營這一個部分，因此這個部分我們是提供建議，看能不能思考，若初期要讓他先走的話，島的負荷也不會太大。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "高雄市政府目前為止並沒有劃設保護區的動作，在105年6月高雄市政府有發布了東沙禁漁的命令，我們現在做的是東沙保護的生態在那邊做一些禁漁的動作，也感謝海巡署這邊的幫忙持續進行禁漁的作業，我們認為這樣就足夠，以上高雄市政府報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我之前有看過遊艇展有專門提，不過目前要開這個航線是需要這邊做任何的配合嗎？或者是實際上明天就可以開了？" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "島上可以的話，明天就可以開了，沒有出國的問題，也就是沒有出國申請的問題，所以是很快的時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以是徵詢業者的意願，也就是確保有這一件事。請這邊回答一下？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "海洋國家公園管理處補充說明兩個部分，第一個是水、電的部分，有關人數增加的話，像高雄市政府長官所說的，會有一波波加乘的效果，量會增加沒有錯；其實我剛剛報告過了，我們委託的專業老師所做的可行性的報告書整本快要3公分厚了，裡面有很詳細的說明，這些預估影響都有計算進去，相關的量能應該是可以應付的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第第二，遊艇的部分我們邀請業者要上島勘查，裡面就包含了1家對東沙遊艇潛水有興趣的「維多利亞76」，9月本來該公司有三位代表要一起至島上勘查，但是因為天氣不好，所以沒有成行。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "讓遊艇至國家公園遊憩，我們沒有既定的立場，但是有部分保育界的人士，提醒應特別小心，因為這裡有一定商機存在，如果開放讓遊艇去的話，必須是通案，不然會有獨厚某一家公司的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我來說明一下目前為止訪談的狀況及看法，我們心智圖是來自於過往，也就是原來海委會提供的資料，我們有一些資料其實是來自於海管處後來提供的一些報告，其實坦白來講，就這一個議題來說，原來東沙島開放觀光的部分，其實海管處已經在規劃了，而且規劃相當完整了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們在訪談時其實有人有反映兩件事，而這兩件事是不同的人反映，但是我覺得可以考慮：第一，這一份報告裡面其實並沒有提到國際的反船漁客，可能是從菲律賓或者是南亞直接過來，可能要去香港的路上就經過了東沙島，然後就停下來浮潛、釣魚、在船上住個一、兩天就開去香港了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊的第一個問題是，在形式比較沒有規劃，這裡面有規劃潛水，但是比較沒有提到這一個，如果是這一種形式的話，有沒有什麼處理的方式？畢竟這個東西其實也不是現在才有的問題，有訪談的對象其實已經說了，也就是現在已經有香港的旅客，他們直接從香港坐船去那個地方，然後再回去香港，這個是第一個想要就教大家的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個議題不曉得大家怎麼看，我們這一次討論是不是可以涉及到這個議題，尤其國際方面，國際方面可能內政部要想一下，因為如果今天有緊急事故突然上島了，我們要怎麼處理，我不知道國際上有沒有什麼相應的做法，我們臺灣的做法可能會是什麼，這一案大家建立起來，也就是有關於船的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "從報告看起來，其實海管處已經做了非常多的工作，但是我們訪談的時候有一些人有提到其實他們也知道政府一直在做規劃，但是並不清楚政府的規劃到底是什麼樣；另外一個方向是，我們要趁這一次的協作會議來跟大家說明一下目前政府這一個地方，海委會做這麼多辛苦的工作以外，大家提出審視這個計畫是否ok以外，也許像海管處一樣，我們討論東沙島即生態旅遊如何推動。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果這個題目的話，我們這邊比較疑惑的是，海管處在協作會議上在什麼議題上幫助到你們好好把事情落實，這個可能是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是島上一些基礎建設的問題，我們讀了一些資料以後，我們發現島上的生態旅遊或者什麼，其實最大的威脅是來自於越南、中國或者是其他國家漁船過來濫捕的問題，包含做學術研究的老師，又或者是重視生態的朋友，他們覺得開放觀光的這一件事有什麼好處？濫捕的船比較不敢這麼囂張，因為有很多人幫忙看，他們下去看才有意義，因此不希望這一些人濫捕。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為很多人來，島上的基礎建設勢必要好好強化，不管是海委會或者是海管處，都會有更多的資源來把基礎建設強化，他們覺得開放觀光的另外一個重要好處。只是在開放觀光以外有一個事情是滿重要的，也就是有關於擴建港口的這一件事，就我們所知，島上有兩個港口，一個港口是建了一半，沒有防波堤，裡面的海浪比外面的還大，只有一些季節才可以用，希望在裡面弄比較大的港口，如果裡面有船數的人來，可以到這裡避風港，他們也認為海巡署這個地方可以停靠100噸的船艦，對於打擊對方的違法濫捕也有一些幫助，也有人提到海巡署100噸的船太高了，如果要查緝的時候要跳下去會有危險，原來20幾噸的船就可以了，不用到100噸，這個是我們訪談到各種不同的意見。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個地方有幾個問題，看大家是不是可以幫忙補充一下意見：第一個層次是，我們要怎麼樣討論可以幫助到大家，不管是高雄市政府、海委會或者是海管處，在這一案你們最缺需要幫忙的東西是什麼，我們可以幫到什麼，其實看這個報告書非常詳細，他們也做了非常多次利害關係人的工作坊，其實該找的人就找過了，幾乎剩下推動了，我們不知道還可以幫上什麼忙，這個是想要情況大家提供一些意見的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "再來，有關於一些state，像國際傳輸的旅客有沒有什麼處理的方式，又或者是港口的部分，我們在島上是不是還要擴建港口，看大家是不是有什麼意見可以說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一些事實性的，像香港旅客，海委會或者是海管處兩邊之前有處理過或者是有碰到過嗎？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "先說明一下國際遊艇的問題，我們有委請專業的老師在做這個課題研究，但是他還沒有給我答案，初步跟老師交換的意見，第一個是涉及到入出國境管理的問題，以東沙目前的狀況，我們國家短時間內，這個是我的推測，還沒達到需於島上設置常設入出境單位進行查核的需要，外國籍旅客來到這個區域，如果沒有事先報備，我們也不知道哪一天要來，如果是事先申請的話，我們需派人前往去辦理入出境管理，因此這個是最大的困擾。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二，只在海域而不登島，這樣子的話，那他不講，我們的海巡是不是變成要主動去查核？如果不查的話，他就在那個海域，雖然是我們的領海，但是不是就要進行驅離或境管安全查核等等之類的，這又是另外一個問題，我現在還沒有答案，但是不管怎麼樣，一定是涉及到入出境管理的問題，要請主管機關來表示意見，這樣會比較周延。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二，在現階段要去推動生態旅遊，其實要面臨的問題還很多，很抱歉我們做得都還是紙上文章階段，現在要做的，剛才都簡要提過了，我再簡單說明一下，第一個是機場要軍民共用，第二個是交通部看能不能核准航線，也就是每一週航班密集一點，我們希望最後每一天都有班機起降。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "接著是住宿的問題，我剛才只提到初期，大概一個禮拜是一百四十個人左右，其實我們有提計畫希望將來島上能夠有一間可以住宿八十個房間的旅館，但是它的功能會兼做生態旅遊中心，包括諮詢、展示、住宿及休閒活動交誼等，其實我們在這裡都有提到，也就是1億7,000多萬元，這個是第三點報告。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第四，我們要解決的是吃的問題，剛剛有提到過了。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第五，有關於土地的問題，現在島上所有的公有土地，全部都登記在海巡署，也就是管理機關是海巡署，任何一塊土地要使用，都必須要經過協商。老實來講，我們目前協商的過程，感覺上沒有那麼順利，我們需要進一步努力。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "接下來是港口航道疏濬的問題。基本上這個案子要推動是因為海巡要執法，目前20噸級的船體沒有辦法對抗中國大陸動輒200噸、300噸的鐵殼船，他們需要100噸的船艇來執法，因為這是執法的大目標，我們認為犧牲一點既有的生態資源，但可以讓海巡署提升執法量能，長期來看是划算的。因此經過兩年的協商，原則上我們大體上是支持的。但是這個案子還是必須要轉送到內政部，也就是國家計畫委員會來審議，我想我們會跟海巡署一起努力通過國家計畫委員會的審查。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "這個地區還隱含了一些問題，像剛剛提到的國際海洋研究中心，上個月陳良基部長帶了四、五十個人一起上島勘查，由於南海的氣象擾動是非常頻繁的，他們希望藉由大學大氣科學系所一起努力，在這個地方建置國際大氣科學研究的平台。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "目前他們也開始付諸實施了，這部分跟我們的生態旅遊沒有太直接的衝突，但是對於國家想要推動南海、南向的政策，加強這個地方曝光跟能見度，在這一個層面上是正面的，我們會配合協助。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "最重要的是經費問題，海洋國家管理處的編制及層級實在無法編列足夠的經費來建置相關的設施。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上一個案子有碰到過（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "經費上的獲得其實滿困難的，短時間內要推動這樣的生態旅遊計畫，不是管理處一、兩年可以編出來的預算，所以在這一方面其實也不多，5、6億就足夠，如果這一方面各主管部會大家能夠通力合作，我想東沙很有機會成為真正的南海明珠，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝海管處說明得相當清楚，海委會有沒有要說明的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "海委會跟海巡有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "除了內政部以外，國防部、文化部也有代表與會，是不是也可以聽取他們的意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其他部會有沒有想要提？" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "我先請本會海巡署表示意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "海巡署的問題，剛剛國家管理處有說幾個問題，第一個問題是食宿的問題，人到島上會產生一些衍生的問題，如果以目前全部依賴東沙指揮部的官兵來作服務的話，不會說不可能，但是量不大，而且旅遊的服務品質一定絕對不會像國人想要去旅遊的預期，那個品質是非常低的，因為不是專業負責旅遊的；換句話說，是不是要籌組專業、專責的營運單位來負責整體的經營部分，我想這個是比較實際的問題。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "第二個是有關於牽涉到防務的問題，像整個東沙島防務問題是由我們來負責，目前島上有很多據點，這個據點都是具有機密性的，而且有重要的武器與裝備都在上面，換句話說，去限縮了整體能夠參觀的地方，有一些很精華、重要的據點，正好就在據點周邊附近，因此就限縮了，你到島上觀光的範圍被限縮以後，也可能造成旅遊品質下降，也是因為防務的問題，也就是土地區劃的問題。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "事實上署裡面有關於土地區劃的部分，我們現在已經朝向跟國家公園管理處朝向雙贏的目標，也就是做一個適度的妥適整體運用規劃，基本上土地沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "接下來人怎麼到島上？剛剛所說的，第一個問題是飛機來，第二個剛剛所說的是船過來的問題，我印象中在92年或93年曾經開放過郵輪到東沙島去，但是實際的經驗是什麼？我當時沒有參與這個案子，但是我知道有這一個案子，其實當時的經驗值是很重要的，因為曾經實施過一次。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "空中機場的問題，因為機場是管制區的問題，是不是請國防部說明一下？如果從海上過來，剛剛就提到港口籌建的問題，有關於東沙島疏浚的問題，也是要籌資到相當的預算，如果港口不是問題，100噸可以進來，遊艇也不是問題。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "最後有一個問題，有人到了島上就會產生緊急救援的問題、醫療救援問題，各種型態的意外都會發生，這個人要如何救？救有兩個問題，一個是飛機下去救、一個是船，白天還好，晚上怎麼辦？這個地方飛不過去，緊急救援也是個問題，如果統一解決的話，事實上是更完整。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請國防部說明一下機場的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是緊急救援的問題。" }, { "speaker": "江晨農", "speech": "目前經過申請之後才能登島，因為沒有助導航設施，所以夜間基本上不能起降，每我們相信東沙島因為天候的因素，所以常常取消，因此沒有合格的塔臺，如果真的要達成軍民合用，或者是每週三班，又或者是每一天班的航班，甚至可能都是包含這一些設助導航施及或臺要重新規劃及、治，報告完畢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，如果沒有裝助導航設施的話，剛剛提到每個禮拜三班是理想狀態，但也有可能是只能飛一班？" }, { "speaker": "江晨農", "speech": "是而且現在靠東空軍的東沙分隊，在目視的助導航在導而已，並不是非常專業的方式，現在東沙因為是一個禮拜一班，軍機是一個月一班，這個量我們可以滿足了，但是未來增加航班的話，不只我們而已，可能交通部的人員也要一起來進駐。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "後面那一句話是，如果專業的航班，如果軍民共管的話，交通部要進駐？" }, { "speaker": "江晨農", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "交通部第一次發言，先就航線證書部分說明，若未來高雄-東沙是以包機方式營運，毋須申請航線證書，僅須檢附申請書、包機合約及保險證明等相關文件。" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "有關國防部先進提到助導航設施，現況每週1班之高雄-東沙包機即為目視起降，未來若增為每週3班，若起降時間仍為日間，應不致影響班機正常起降。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以意思是中午不管天候如何，你有助導航設施會有幫助嗎？" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "有助導航設施有其助益，但是是輔助，最終是靠機師的專業判斷來做進場及降落；考量提昇助導航設施須大筆經費，建議仍以現行目視起降方式運作，未來若運量持續提昇，再行評估。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，簡單來講，你覺得一個禮拜還是三班而且同一時間的話，那助導航稍候再進場也還好，之後可能班次變多、人變多了，或者是大家要求變高了，也就是一天三班的話，那當然非進場不可。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "國防部對於這一案的說法，您覺得ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "江晨農", "speech": "不是我們的業管，但是我們會研究。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於港口的部分，大家覺得有什麼問題需要釐清？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來是需要錢疏浚。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們可以補充一下訪談生態的費用，其實也認為保護其他地方的犧牲看起來是必要的，也就是滿認同的，看起來是比較大的共識，這個是之前的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外要請教高雄市政府，遊艇的朋友提到他覺得臺灣有一個比較好的遊艇發展，你們剛才提到遊艇也許可以先開放，他可以提到小港那地方的碼頭可以做遊艇基地，而這個遊艇的基地可以跟東沙島、澎湖南方四島可以串聯，這個是很不錯的遊艇生態圈，不知道對於這一件事，高雄市政府有沒有什麼地方覺得我們可以幫忙的？" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "我想遊艇碼頭就高雄轄區當然不是只針對東沙，而且目前高雄在高雄港裡面有兩個民間投資，包括亞灣及嘉信佳興22號碼頭，剛剛提到的是嘉信佳興公司的部分，高雄市政府有兩個遊艇碼頭，一個是在鼓山漁港、一個是興達港，我們現在跟高雄市政府、港務公司也合作，要在愛河灣的海洋流行音樂中心的水域那邊，希望在年底可以開始招商，希望是有一百多個泊位的部分。因此遊艇泊位的部分，高雄市政府很努力在做，我們也會儘量提供。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "就如果從高雄過去到東沙的部分，其實他們這一些船都可以利用既有的租用，當然有租用，現在既有的這一些泊位，事實上也不夠，我們也努力去開發新的碼頭，所以就高雄市港區，我覺得還是可以去調度、使用，剛剛的問題可能是在東沙，也就是船到了東沙，到底要不要停靠碼頭，或者是他們即使大型的遊艇，在水不是很深的地方，他們就可以下錨，就可以用接駁的方式，不一定船要馬上進去，這一些部分，很多人是潛水的喜好者，他們對這一個部分的使用，其實限制才沒有像一般的遊客。如果未來當作定期航線，遊客是需要碼頭，現階段的要求是稍微低一點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "感謝高雄市的說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果是這樣的話，我們的議題看起來大家的方向差不多，一方面其實是希望瞭解觀光到底是否該開放，但是因為海管處這邊已經有一個比較具體的方向，大家也同意及討論東沙島如何推動生態旅遊，如果是這樣的話，我想題目就像剛剛所講的，東沙島要如何推生態旅遊，其他的部會有沒有覺得不ok的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "或者是我們開這一場會議很浪費，大家都有各自的工作要去做（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛聽起來有幾個點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，也就是大家湊錢的問題，各自要出多少，這是協調問題，如果你不是全部都湊在一起，其實它沒有吸引力。如果只做一半，到最後沒有人去，聽起來是這樣子，所以至少等於有一個宣示性質的作用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，有一些比較是屬於招商的部分，像剛剛講的遊艇，其實遊艇實際上還沒有去場勘，對不對？所以如果要問遊艇什麼情況下定錨、什麼地方不能定錨，其實到協作會議也不一定會有定論，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我care的，不是要不要開，聽起來開了對讓大家知道我們在做什麼是有幫助的，只是時間點，看大家手上有什麼去開而已，這邊有沒有預計更多的資料，或者是手上的資料就可以對外說了？" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "其實從整個議題聽起來，這個議題從國家公園的角度，以生態保育的原則來當出發點，生態旅遊其實是一直積極在推動，因此今天的主題，營建署表示我們的意見是支持的，因此我們表示這一個議題並不是談要不要開放，而是要深入談如何開放，應該要做好準備。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "目前來看，我們在做有關於生態旅遊條件的調查資料，其實我們已經在做有關資源的盤點，目前來講研究報告在年底會完成，所以會有比較全面性的看法可以得到。其實這裡面談到的問題相當地多，從各個不同的部會，我們今天談到一個問題，像我們是不是要有人道救援的問題，也有遊客及外國的漁船，也就是企圖來做一些不禮貌的人，是不是要做人道救援存在。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "其實國防部的意見是，這個地區民眾要登島，我們即使是公務機關要登島，必須有一些申請的程序要完成，當然以公務機關的角度要執行公務，或者是做學術研究，其實從國防部的角度來看，程序完成但並不會太複雜，但是民眾要登島，就要重新調查是不是有國安的因子要考量，因此這裡面從人員的進駐來看，其實涉及到的是本國人的問題，並不是外國人的問題，這個地方是不是國防部有其他的疑慮，因此這個都要再進一步釐清。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "最後從資源面來看這個問題，假設我們今天促成這一件事，像國防部也同意登島來旅遊，原則上並不是像我們所說豪華級的，一定是生態式的，因此以這個地方如此脆弱、敏感，因此我們才會劃設國家公園，基本上就是要保育及保護它。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "因此開放出來觀光生態旅遊的話，必然有總量管制，基本上會跟一般商業性的旅遊會有等級上的差異，不管是人數的問題，又或者是旅遊內涵的問題，基本上一定會有所不同，因此這樣的情況之下，這邊的量不會太多。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "但是仍然有一個問題，目前以海巡或者是海洋委員會來講，這個地方算是敏感的，又或者是從國防部角度來看是敏感性比較高的地方，不只是環境的問題，還有包含國際趨勢的問題存在。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "談到如果這個地方大家贊成開放觀光，你有很多實際的問題必須要解決，像港的建設是不是要提升，不管海港的設施是不是要提升，又或者是空港的設備是不是要提升，這個涉及到經費的問題，又或者是人員管制的問題，像各種污染問題等等的東西，這裡面其實回應到一個問題，也就是預算可行性有多少。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "目前為止從各項建設來講，各個部會自己本身能夠掌控的經費相當有限，因此有沒有可能各部會自己也去盤點，像今天這個議題成立以後，大家focus有這樣的共識，也就是要推動觀光，你能夠拿多少的預算去促成自己的設施等級提升而達到觀光的等級，是否做得到？我知道我們的情況是，以我們的管理處之行政層級沒有太多的預算經費投入。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "可以做的是相關資料的調查、盤點及基盤的設施補助，比較大的硬體設施的建設經費，原則上我們是有困難的，我不知道其他的部會是不是有這樣的困難點，因此凸顯出來這個計畫的推動是長遠性的，短時間之內要做，大家不妨詳細確認清楚，如果真的來做需要動員多少資源，也就是從你的經費上的編列、爭取，然後籌措出來的錢，你可以做到哪一些建設等級，對這一個議題是否有幫助。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "我從另外一個角度來看，其實我們有太多離島還需要建設，即使是金門、馬祖，機場、海港等級，也就是以機場的等級來講，要提升到比較優質旅遊環境，其實那個機場是需要建設的，因此相對來講，這個地方要投入這一些建設去提升機場的等級、所有人員進駐，我覺得這個經費並不是小數字，因此我持一個看法是詳細研究清楚，然後有一個全盤的計畫，再來訂短、中、長期如何推動。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "也要看看國防部對這裡的看法，還有外交部、國安會有沒有國家安全的疑慮？如果有的話，我們這個地方要再想一下並考量。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "我想這一些研究清楚以後，我覺得最大的問題點出在於預算，大家談的很高興，就是要做而預算編不出來，要怎麼做就要切割清楚，也就是短、中、長期看有哪一些規劃，也就是提升到哪一個狀態，需要提升什麼狀態，按照現有經費編列的情形分幾年促成，因此這個議題的成立及討論，是不是可以花多一點的時間再整合一下，尤其國防部的意見，我覺得很重要。" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "如果要推動旅遊的話，並不是單純只有學術界或者是政府部門的人上去，要開放的是一般的國人，你會不會有其他的疑慮？也就是有一些其他特殊政治目的的人，是不是也願意讓他們上去？因此要有一些全盤性的配套做法？" }, { "speaker": "王東永", "speech": "外交部對這個地方的看法是怎麼樣？透過一個正常旅遊程序去開放民眾，又或者是其他地方（南海）過來，也就是外國人立場的角度往這個地方過來了，有一些人道救援上的問題，這又是另外一個類似像外交或者是其他的部分，我覺得這個部分相關部會都詳細研究清楚以後，把問題釐清，我覺得還有一些時間可以跟各個部會徹底來談這個議題，這樣來推動或許比較有幫助，以上補充，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以綜整一下：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，外交、國防談及其他主權相關的事情，當初提開放政府聯絡人協作案的時候，我有先在政務會議報告，也有跟院長說如果有這一方面，不管是國安或者是其他，應該要先告訴我們，不過目前還沒有收到不能做討論，至少可以做討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然如果狀況有變化，現在不能討論，請大家馬上告訴我，我會再次和院長確認。但是至少我收到的訊息是這個公開討論並不是太大的問題，這個是一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，剛才特別提到有關於境管，即使這一件事是可以討論的，像出入境管理或者是外國的人道救援等等，我聽起來海管處有一個研究案，是什麼時候會回來？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "評估報告尚未完成，目前還沒有具體的成果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不知道什麼時候結案？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "應該年底之前會結案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個其實是滿關鍵的，如果沒有一個解決方法的話，協作會議時就說「今天專門討論國旅」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他人我們理論上是要趕走，但是事實上趕不走？到最後就會變成這樣。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我補充一下，外國人到東沙去，其實我們內部跟老師間交換的意見，我們不認為短時間內有能力讓外國人直接上島，我說的是正常的狀況，並不是人道救援，那個情況是很特殊的，無論如何都要去做，我講的是正常的狀況。短時間內我們既然沒有這個能力，包含入出境管理的問題，如果外國人要去，也先循正常的途徑，先由我國海關入關，如果還想要到東沙去，要留給國防部四十至四十五天的時間去查核。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。如果是在船上呢？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我剛剛講的是陸上。如果是在海上的話，在國家公園內若不屬於人道救援的區域，對於其他外國人的處理模式，是我們目前正在研究的核心課題，到底要怎麼樣、怎麼辦。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "如果一般外國的船隻，國際上有無害通過的原則，如果只是到這個地方來停留兩個鐘頭下去潛水，我們是否要前往取締、驅離？這在實際執行上可能都會有困難，需再詳細討論評估。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可能會變成一個行為準則，如果開始釣魚，那個是另外一回事，如果開始放拖網那又是另外一回事。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "遊艇與漁船之船型是不一樣的，海巡單位是專業的，他們從雷達上就可以判斷出這個是漁船或者是遊艇。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我想在這一個案子當中，剛剛幾點我來補充一下，國防部的部分，從剛剛國防部跟交通部的發言內容，聽起來假定是用包機的方式，有沒有助航設施，應該變成是比較其次的問題，也就是可以克服的，當然有助導航設施是最好的，如果沒有的話，就一個禮拜三班飛機的狀況，只要天氣許可、可以目視起降，這個問題聽起來是可以克服的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "比較難的是人員查核的問題，國防部現在是委託空軍進行人員查核，他們需要一些時間。這裡也同時回應一下海巡署，東沙生態旅遊需要一個專業機構來承辦，本處本來的構想是由本處委託一個專業機構，負責辦理包含登島遊客的食住行及島上的交通等，還有負責環境教育解說，也就是負責生態旅遊遊程，像浮潛、潛水安全管理等等的工作，生態旅遊是必須要有這樣的單位的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我打斷一下，這樣的單位，臺灣目前有嗎？或者是有類似的，可以讓我們想一下嗎？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我不是幫忙打廣告的。我一時之間想不起來，像南仁湖公司在國內就有好幾個點在執行，另外，還有幾家專門負責辦旅遊的旅行公司也都對東沙生態旅遊有興趣，如果他們願意投入的話，我們跟評估團隊談了很多，也將萬一預算經費不夠的時候，是否可在委託契約中訂定營業金額的一定比例，回饋做為當地基本設施興建、維護經費建等構想納入考量，目前正由委託單位評估中。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "海巡署的代表也提到緊急救援的部分，當然海巡署在東沙島做了很多事，比方他們現在有東光醫院，醫院中有配置外科醫師，也有牙醫官跟護理師，還有基本的手術室，還有X光機，牙科治療及比較嚴重緊急的有視訊系統等，在發展初期的相關救援能量島上目前是足夠的，當然如果碰到緊急且有立即危險性時，國搜中心也有指派C130前往處理的機制。除此之外，還可以考慮發展由行政委託或委外方式增加醫療量能，這個在機制上、技術上是做得到的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外海巡署也提到島上機敏設施，將來要做生態旅遊的話，不只海巡的機密設施，包含軍方需要管制的範圍都必須要事先劃定出來，我們負責推生態旅遊，在執行時就絕對不可以影響管制區的運作，這個是必須要研訂相關的執行計畫，因為每一個機關有各自的任務，執行時需讓所有的機關都能遂行才是良策，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我問一個問題，您剛剛提到委外進行營運，對不對？那個是純營運嗎？建設那些是我們要先做起來，只能委外做營運的部分，也就是OT only？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "這個是我們最後終極的目標。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，這樣很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "感謝大家。我們先帶一下這個議題的內容，我跟大家道歉，這個議題我整理了兩、三次，我自己覺得沒有非常滿意，這包含了我第一次從通盤檢討自己曾經做過，但有點雜，這個其實是依據海委會的議題來整理，但是坦白來講生態面、文化面及後面的部分有很多地方重疊，島上現況的部分我可能整理比較多，我還是一個個過來跟大家確認一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們事後用書面改。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "後續改請大家協助我看有沒有要補充的，剛才大家的談話內容我先放在旁邊，我事後再整理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所「生態面」，東沙群島在海域內有豐富的水下資源、其他國家違法捕撈、全球溫度上升有一些珊瑚白化現象，這邊大家有覺得需要補充嗎？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "這個跟好像原來各單位寄的心智圖又修改嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "沒有，同一份。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "像剛剛提到「全球溫度上升，產生珊瑚白化」，這個是十幾年前聖嬰現象造成的，目前東沙的狀況已逐漸恢復了，建請拿掉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先拿掉。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「違法捕撈」的部分，我們補充如果海巡署要處理違法捕撈，其實海巡署會有比較大的打擊動作，當今天有打擊動作的時候，那個人還要花很多時間、精力，就是還要送回高雄，很耗時、耗力，他們有一個建議，是不是要檢查人員駐點在東沙群島，也就是抓到之後直接力，我不知道海巡署如何看待這一件事？這個是否需要？如果需要的話，我們就幫忙問一下法務部的意見。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "會有檢查人員是通常違反法令的話才會有，一般的法規是完成修正就會直接函送漁業署，像漁業法裡面毒電、炸魚才會有刑責的部分。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "因為並不是每一天……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "並不是每一天都會有人來炸魚（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "中國大陸違法濫捕的情況，每一年的時間雖然還是會有，但是強度沒有這麼高。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那就刪掉。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "訪談也有人提到那一些國家的漁船，常常載了兩、三個禮拜的食品、飲水，然後就是過來要大賺一筆，所以通常海巡企圖上也是相當困難，也就是去另外一個地方繼續抓。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "就跟夜市攤販一樣，等到船一走又來了，這個是同樣的道理，還是回歸到剛剛講的港口設施，因為你要保持隨時可以出去的話，這個問題就解決掉，目前東沙最麻煩的是，因為是一航設施，白天出去然後晚上再進來就會這樣子，還是那個港口設施。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。這個是海上夜市問題的解決方法（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是「文化面」，這個是要確認現有的文化資產及觀光對水下保存有衝擊，可能有衝擊，我們訪談到幾個，其實東沙島沒有什麼好玩的，要玩是水下跟水上的活動，那時的報告其實還包括要成立水下的沉船博物館及對這一些盤點，對水下考古的話都經費不足，可能沒有辦法打撈的狀況，因此有一些需要改善的問題。不曉得文化部有沒有意見？" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "我補充一下，因為今天命題的修正，可能未來會朝向生態旅遊這一方面來規劃，誠如剛剛所說的，我們先暫時區分陸域跟水下這兩個區塊，因為涉及到東沙島，唯一大家耳熟能詳或者是比較成功的是主題式的博物館，比如十三行博物館，因為是博物館的團隊下去營運的，因此可能還會有周邊的教育推廣，不然單獨這一些考古遺址，事實上可能跟生態未必有相關，第二個確實是缺乏誘因的。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "就水下的部分來講，目前國際趨勢事實上是以現地保存為主要的保存跟研究調查方式，目前還是不會去做任何的打撈，因為其實不管是陸域或是水下的考古遺址，在科技還沒有讓我們可以得到更好的保存方式時，現地保存是最好的方法，文資保存界有歇後語，所謂的「乾千年，濕萬年，半乾半濕剩半年」，當你不知道該怎麼處理的時候，事實上木乃伊可以保存千年、水下的沉船可以保存萬年，但是你一旦冒然打撈起來的話，半乾半濕的狀態之下只剩下半年，半年之後就會瓦解。水下的部分確實比較困難，因為水下文資法尚未滿三年，在104年12月9日才公告實施，而且目前我們的重點都是在西部海域，因為要因應經濟部能源局離岸風電的政策，所以我們先做西部海域水下文化資產的調查。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "還有澎湖地區，也就是澎湖周遭的海域，因為有一些歷史的淵源，事實上為大宗，即便上我們所提的中長期計畫，109年開始也是以澎湖為主要調查區域與研究對象，東沙這邊還是有經過一些中研院或者是中山大學初步的調查，在環礁裡面比較類似文化資產有九處，比較確定有五處是沉船。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "比較弔詭的是九處都是在水下差不多10公尺的地方，10公尺是潛水休閒活動的門檻，也就是基本到進階的門檻，10公尺以內的話，休閒潛水課程或者是team或者是觀光活動，他們事實上是有可能會在不知情的情況之下，可能因為好奇或者是從事水下攝影等等，對於文化資產造成一些破壞的行為，因此這一個部分是我們會比較擔憂的。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "雖然這個都需要經過申請，但是我們知道申請是生態旅遊，但是這個team，而潛水本身就是觀光活動的項目之一，不一定要去做生態旅遊，潛水是很好玩的，可能是以生態旅遊之名，但是事實上就是潛水或者是做潛水的攝影或者是教學，因此九處水下文化資產因為還沒有做進一步的辨識及確認，因此當然文資身分也還沒有獲得確認，因此還沒有辦法依法劃設保護區。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "在這樣的情況之下，我們在做教育推廣的時候，像陸域的部分，雖然相對無趣，雖然是展示或者是解說服務等等，還是有機會處理，但是水下的疑似文資還沒有辦法獲得確認，因此還沒有到達教育推廣或者是公眾觀覽的程度，以上先初步報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "聽起來的意思是，目前那個地方文化部還沒有辦法處理，也要擔心假設不小心破壞當地的沉船遺址有什麼問題，我們先收到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "「觀光」二字是不是可以改「生態旅遊」？因為在學理上是不同的範疇。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，我們不專業沒有發現這一些。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "一個是以「AR、VR與360度環景……」。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "這個部分或許如果未來在所謂旅遊行程的規劃方面，可能還不適合讓他們直接進行水下觀覽的部分，也許間接的部分可以作為可能是行程的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "劉明興", "speech": "當然這個牽涉到剛剛處長所提的，可能必須要有一個空間，它是一個比較多功能、綜合功能，除了提供實務之外，也會有一些展示或者是作為教育推廣的場所，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我補充一下，其實去年文資局的施局長有到東沙去，也下水去做沉船的現場勘查，因為我們有一個空間要做相關的展示設施，施局長很慷慨同意分攤相關經費，包含剛剛所提到的AR的影片及水下考古的一些資料都會在現場來作展示。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "因此各位長官如果明年初到東沙，就要以看到相關展示了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以現場叫什麼？「展覽室」？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "「展示」。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接下來是現狀的部分，我看現狀的部分晚一點再談，也就是「科研面」的問題，其實當地有一些科學展及相關東西的復育，也有提到東沙站研究站，邀集開研討會，後面也有提到水下文化中心，另外也有提到有關於大氣研究的部分，這部分的規劃可以請科技部幫忙說明一下，若可以的話，也幫我們說明一下如果要推生態旅遊的話，會跟這個研究有衝突嗎？又或者是還好？" }, { "speaker": "黃惠珍", "speech": "政委、各位長官大家好，針對東沙島的部分本部有做長期的科學研究，只要不影響科學研究的前提下應都可以配合，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個地方目前已經做的事，研究站已經成立了，研究調查也就是文化資產已經做了，海洋生物研討會及大氣平台的狀況，可以再多補充說明一下嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃惠珍", "speech": "還要再確認。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "沒有問題，謝謝你。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是「環保面」的問題，其實跟那邊的現狀是類似的，是水資源不足，遊憩承載量不足、基礎設施不足，基礎設施不足可能需要電信設施規劃及保持暢通，之前訪談有提到一些電信的狀況，像他們的頻寬只有2點多K，然後很慢，白天的時候大家都在用網路，連youtube都打不開，訪談到一些人有提到，他們會希望這個通訊可能要加強，因為假設有一些環保人士，可能希望到島上幫忙淨灘，可以有很快的訊息傳回去到臺灣，像聲援或者是調度資源到這個地方協助，又或者是島上的人要浮潛，可能有一些照片或者是傳輸，又或者是要跟家人通訊的需求，這部分也要跟人規劃。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當地是海島，東西在上面壞得很快，在上面投資建設，其實有時對電信商也是很大的成本，這個部分是不是可以請交通部說明一下？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在是用中新二號嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "NCC，不好意思，我以為是交通部，中華電信那邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這邊有NCC的朋友在嗎？有關於聯外頻寬的問題。" }, { "speaker": "蘇思漢", "speech": "聯外頻寬，我們去調查一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "20Mbps？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，我印象記錯了。" }, { "speaker": "蘇思漢", "speech": "　因為東沙是一個海島，距離臺灣本島滿遠，目前只能靠衛星通信作為傳輸鏈路，成本非常高，要投入多少經費來做傳輸頻寬，經費有限，願意投更多的錢可以擴充，但是衛星的頻寬也有限。因此，沒有辦法像我們在都會區，就算本島的偏遠地區，再怎麼差的品質，我想都比在東沙島那邊好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我記得之前去南方四島的時候，我們可以去東吉的解說中心用iTaiwan，不管是臺灣大或者是其他電信的用戶，去解說中心還是有wifi可以用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是最後還是要透過衛星的傳輸，不然只是在島內傳來傳去，不然就是架一個social media，上不了臉書還是可以架一個島內留言區。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想uplink是非常貴，一天飛三班的程度也許有意義，但是一開始也許不要把這個當作前提條件，這樣可能會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們接著看一下「現狀」，訪談時有一個老實說得滿好玩的，以前去過東沙島的老師，現在到東沙島看設備都覺得非常好，像有海巡署，對國際的老師來說都是超讚的，但是如果沒有去過東沙島的老師，連網路都很慢，以前沒有網路，現在有網路，大家覺得非常感恩、讚嘆。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是期待管理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "也就是期待管理做好的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於交通的部分，因為畢竟運捕是兩個，一個是靠空運、一個是靠海巡署的運捕船，港口如果沒有建好的玖，上岸是需要小船接駁的，郵輪過去也會遇到類似的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "空運的部分有立榮ATR72一趟可以載70人，機場是目視起降的，當天氣不好的時候，人可以留久一點，這個是很大的風險，這個是有關於海管處非常辛苦做的報告。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有軍機、民航機等等，海管處建議是不是軍民共用，海委會海巡署會使用二十人剩餘給海管處分配，只是交通部要核准航權，這個海管處的建議，不知道大家有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是強化東沙群島……" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "高雄-東沙屬國內航線，沒有航權的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊可能要鬆綁東沙群島的管制強度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們有直升機航線需求嗎？" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "去了回不來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "單程航線。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可能要等到垂直起降飛機，到島上換電池……不過那還要好幾年。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "旅遊的部分是也有建議小眾包機，小型郵輪的跳島航線，這個都是剛剛提到的各種建議，這個訪談是剛剛問到的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於飲食的部分，像委託商業廠商進場，這個是海管處的建議，其實島上的食物都是預估來的，飲用水都是預估，這個是海委會比較辛苦。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "只是這個是比較舊的資料，我們看海管處的報告，飲用水是可以用島上的水來做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只有食物需要運補。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "水電不是太大的問題，有電食物就可以保存，因為所有食物保存就要靠電，因為淡化機也是要用電，所以關鍵是電，沒有電就什麼都不用談；換句話說，電的備載容量要大。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "電可以換成食物與水（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "水電的部分看到的東西還是採發電機，對於現在使用電力尚足，他們三天兩頭機器有問題就斷電就換得很快，他們說兩部機組就需要更新，水的部分就增加淡水的部分，然後再增加海水蒸餾等等，大家有沒有建議改善方向？除了替換機組以外還有沒有？是不是需要運補？機組還夠嗎？是不是要增加？" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "就是要增加。" }, { "speaker": "王正芳", "speech": "看起來國家公園管理處對推動生態旅遊已有整體規劃，至於島上相關水、電及住處等等設施，是否全然由政府處理，應再考量。剛剛政委也有提到促參BOT是個方向，整個旅遊行程由促參廠商來負責，政府只要做規範；土地問題現在是海巡署在管理國有土地，倘要作促參開發，建議撥給國產署和管理處合作開發，這也是一個方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們如果之後對外開協作會議，很可能是往「民間可以做什麼」的方向討論。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我補充一下，因為BOT其實早期是希望朝那個方向做，不過在民國100年的時候，立法院就已經明文要求國家公園，它是要做自然保育的，以後不可以再做BOT，因為有這樣的政策方向，所以我們目前只考慮以OT方式辦理，沒有考慮BOT模式，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，OT的約裡面不能架發電機組，如果搬來就踩到立法院，因為算是硬體建設？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "BOT就是有一個建造及移轉的過程。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們這邊看到一個困境，發電機還是要由政府做。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不過其實我們在討論的時候，我們看到有一個建議是鼓勵民間和私人部門來參與、建設環境管理，這個地方要如何做，這個地方是不是在立法院決議出來之前給了建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少管理沒有問題，建設才有問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "建設不行。所以這個東西真的是一個困境。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是住的部分，我們看到裡面是已有宿舍、空間不足，希望增建跟增加容量，海管處委託的研究，那其實已經比當時好很多了，我之前看到的研究報告案，島上只能住二、三十幾個人，現在已經有七、八十個人可以住了，海管處有建議是給專業機關給統籌的單位來處理，我們整理到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是廢棄物的部分，廢棄物目前是由運輸船給本島處理，我們看到有化糞池問題，好像化糞池有一些破裂洩漏，海水淡化的取水口也在附近，我不確定是不是真的？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我補充說明一下，剛才提到的宿舍空間不足，早期當然是非常不足，但剛剛提出來的資料，那個是研究單位以可提供最大、最理想的狀態下所統計的人數，實際上運用起來可能會打一點折扣，而且那裡面有很多的房間是多人共用的形式。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "如果將來要發展生態旅遊，是不是適合一個房間住六個人或者甚至八個人，尤其像漁服站，海巡署或者是當時的海巡陸戰隊，他們對生活起居空間標準好像要求沒有這麼高，一個房間最多住了八個人，但是現在如果是生態旅遊，恐怕沒有辦法住到八個人，人數上就會打折扣。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二，有關於化糞池的部分，其實當時都有經過修繕，但根本解決的問題的方法還是要設置污水處理場，我剛剛報告過現在正在設計，108年就會開始動工，施工的時間大概要兩年，我想兩年後島上的污水處理系統應該會完整，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "通訊的部分會處理，現在有設置基本醫療醫院，目前已經有設置醫護人員了，已經可以做簡單的手術了，如果需要的話，就是後送。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是管理的部分，管理的部分是地面儘量規劃，以前是土地面積太小，外來的餐飲還是要由海巡署來運捕，軍事區的限制也滿多的，大家看到就知道這個報告是建議由海巡署來接管，海巡署已經經營一段時間了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "海巡署的好處是降低主權紛爭，可能有裝備不足的問題，也就是強化海域巡訪的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是中國漁船的越界捕撈，這個是當時的報告，好像十年前認為生態研究承載量還要評估。「環境」的部分是，比如以東沙環礁為主的海洋度假村。接著是「總量管制」就是我們現在正在討論的，這個是目前已經有的海洋體育營的活動，但是沒有辦法滿足觀光需求。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不曉得大家對於這樣的議題有沒有什麼建議或者是需要再調整的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛各位發言的部分是先用便利貼記在一邊，我們之後會再寄給大家現在有沒有沒有提到的面向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們對外討論的話，是覺得民眾知道會有幫助的部分，看大家有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "沒有的話，我們來確認一下與會的利害關係人，因為沒有提案人、附議人，因此看大家有沒有覺得什麼團體是你們希望可以對話的對象，然後把他們邀請過來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前我們這邊有一個是「海龍王愛地球協會」是關心這一個地方的保育團體人士，我們不確定是不是還有關心當地的保育人士，大家有要補充的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我建議事後用書面補，因為逐字稿大家無論如何可以編輯十四天才對外，我建議心智圖併同今天的逐字稿給大家，要補的也可以補。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然現在要提的也可以提。" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "東沙機場現況已有每週1班之高雄-東沙包機，若擬增為每週3班，考量設置軍民合用機場須大筆建設經費及長期派駐人力，我們將再行評估。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "軍用機場還可以降落？" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "量先衝起來看看，若量帶得起來，我們將再行評估。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之後還有可能會分成短、中期來放。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們再來盤一下相關的利害關係人，政府單位不知道各位與會者是不是有缺？包含了海委會、內政部、文化部、NCC、科技部、交通部、農委會。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "除了有缺的，是不是也有人要下莊的？例如經濟部，很明顯今天都沒有討論到他。" }, { "speaker": "王正芳", "speech": "農委會部分，現在國家公園都是海管處依國家公園法進行管理，雖然高雄市政府有依照漁業法公告，但是只是物種保護。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有聽懂，這個狀態我們之前也有遇過（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實漁業署的關聯比較小，確實是這樣；看其他別的部會有沒有要推薦其他部會或者是機關團體，又或者是今天提出資料或書面補充之後就還好？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "衛福部？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "應該不是長照。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有長照問題。離島的醫院，我們當然可以請衛福部出具一下，他們覺得書面上是不是有可以做的事情，我們可以調查，這當然沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "高雄市政府在這邊，也是有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然有的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接下來還有一些民間團體，像剛剛有提到潛水業者，不知道是不是有相關的協會？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有遊艇業者。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "臺灣遊艇公會。我記得遊艇協會也滿關心這一件事，我們也有訪談到他們，潛水業者有沒有相關的詢問？也就是去那個地方潛水？有沒有什麼人長期讓高雄市政府相當苦惱？比如他們常常來提意見。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "我們建議是中央交通部。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實交通部背後管滿多事，辛苦了。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我們建議觀光局應該不用，因為以過去的例子來看，像臺江國家公園成立的時候，原本是雲嘉南國家風景區重疊，後來在國家公園成立後，國家風景區就將重疊範圍劃出，像澎湖南方四島成立的時候，原先範圍也與澎管處範圍重疊，但在國家公園成立後，澎管處也將該範圍劃出去了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們是管風景區。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "像觀光協會。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "像中華民國戶外遊憩協會加起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "您講一個，我們就加一個。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我有一個小建議，我看報告是歐聖榮老師，是不是他可以先邀，因為這個資料是他做的，像松克義是當地研究站的管理者，他看起來也是滿重要的角色。大家有沒有要邀請其他的人？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我們想加陳餘鋆。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，我補充一下，因為我們從這一次的協作會議開始，會由部會同仁來擔任小桌長的角色，所以桌長的部分是由這兩位擔任，PDIS小組的人會協助。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "我們是來實習的。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "我們來實習。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們會邀請他們一起來把議題手冊定稿，也會邀請他們做相關的沙推，如果各位帶來的利害關係人或者是老師，立場強力的話，我們非常建議，也就是本來在外面會講一些話，很視各位溝通對象的話，可以把各位找進來，但是他們的狀態可以找進來他的觀點是什麼、會在意什麼，包含主持人及桌長可以在事前瞭解一下跟他對話時，他們的定義會不會跟我們不一樣，這中間的部分我們必須要瞭解一下，因此各位如果有相關想要瞭解及需要補充的部分，可以跟我們說一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先講一下，因為這一次跟以前協作會議不太一樣的是，我們10月26日會在高雄開。內政部這邊也有提醒，10月26日以前好比像研究案等等資料不一定回得來，所以在一開始的議題手冊裡面，會講這個是階段性的，等於是大家意見徵詢或對焦，並不是當場就要拍板，那個不太可能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果沒有國安上的顧慮，至少會有一個好處，也就是當天討論，不管是各個部會願意提出多少資源等等，我至少可以詳細跟院長報告，也就是到什麼狀態，也讓這一些老師們知道我們目前到什麼狀態，至少這個對焦的功能是有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果大家覺得我們10月26日去開的話，現在的心智圖大家覺得還有意義的話，接下來有兩個動作，我們會把心智圖跟逐字稿整理好，請大家把手上覺得還可以推薦的人、還可以提供的資料及所有可能可以放在議題手冊裡面，大家覺得知道會比較好的事情，可以盤點一次，現有的資料也可以幫忙看一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我們等這一些都盤點完之後，可能會有一個沙推的會議，致翔會再call，在沙推會議會預演一次大家討論的順序等等，主辦的部會是一定會邀到，其他我覺得就是看我們實際上這樣子盤點完之後，大家回去問業務單位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果業務單位有一些想要從協作會議裡面探討的事情、取得的資源又或者是你們覺得是利害關係人的，也非常推薦來沙推會議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果覺得事實提供差不多，像剛才農委會的狀態，那場會議就可以下車了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之後致翔會再做行政上的聯絡，如果大家覺得ok的話，我們今天會議到這邊，不好意思，稍微超時7分鐘。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家好，我們今天一樣準時開始，因為現在已經10月了，已經進入選舉前兩個月，所以正式進入「Join」沒有連署案的月份，因為這樣的關係，我們今天沒有任何要投票的部分，但是因為這樣的關係，所以國發會有非常多個報告案，我們等一下可以稍微拿今天的時間檢視一下之前包含參與式預算的想法或是回應參採情形的功能，又或者是青年團隊對於介面優化想法等等的部分，國發會大概都會提出一些報告案，當然這些都是報告案，所以意思是大家想一想，如果有什麼想法，可以直接丟到sli.do上、可以匿名丟，或者之後有隨時想到什麼，可以在email或者是PO.chat提出都可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天的sli.do是「1071001」，一開始在歷次協作會議報告之前，PDIS有兩個簡單的報告案先跟大家分享一下，我們就請致翔先。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我先就上次的月會狀況（報告），上次有請各位報名加拿大工作坊的行程，目前先簡單說一下已知的狀況，那一天的行程會在11月5日至11月9日，就是週一至五的時間，前面應該是工作坊，後面是另外一個FWD50的活動。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "曾私訊表示有興趣的包含農委會、陸委會、國防部三個部會，如果還有任何同仁有興趣的話，請告訴我，如果沒有的話，我們就會在這三個部會當中選適合的PO出席這一場的會議，到時比較詳細的時間、地點及議程都出來的時候，我們再用mail的方式寄給大家。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來再請蔡琬梅幫我們報告一下，她陪同唐鳳出席聯合國大會期間說明我國是全球落實SDGs重要夥伴的情況。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "大家好，我是琬梅，政委辦公室的同事，這個標題我用了兩個「＃」，分別是「UN SDGs」、「TaiwanCanHelp」，這一次唐委員其實是配合外交部去推案，我們在聯合國大會開議期間——這個星期是聯合國大會——在全球盛會要發生之前，我們到紐約去幫外交部宣傳一個主要的訊息，就是臺灣可以作為「全球推動永續發展目標」一個很重要、很值得信賴的夥伴，所以兩個很重要的「＃」，我們這次把它定調成「TaiwanCanHelp」，是幫忙推動聯合國永續發展的目標。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "其實這一次去聯合國總部紐約做的事很多、很多，在短短的五天四夜，政委見了很多人、說了很多話，因為政委的東西非常新穎，也非常引人目光及焦點，所以大家聽了政委的演講及介紹臺灣在推動永續發展目標、社會創新、開放政府數位治理及公民參與，甚至是在座各位親身經歷過的公民審議式民主，如何在討論及協作的過程中產出理性、而不會傷害到任何一個領域的公共政策形成過程，政委都有詳細地說明。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "主要的對象及目標如同PPT所說的，是紐約各界及聯合國相關社群，各界包含了學界、僑界，甚至是社會創新的夥伴們、商界，聯合國相關社群，比如像經濟社會理事會，甚至是聯合國邀請過來當作現身說法社創的模範青年，甚至是友邦的代表，我們都有接觸，重要的訊息是「臺灣可以作為全球落實SDGs重要夥伴」，包含政委到哥倫比亞大學、也到紐約大學演講，還有一個滿具有代表性的是「Asia Society」，在紐約是一個很重鎮之外的傳統智庫。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "在亞洲協會演講的時候，還有一個很重要的會晤是跟美國前東亞及太平洋事務助理國務卿Daniel Russel見面及會談，這樣的拜會像聯合國記者協會、Freedom House、紐約社創公司、大紐約地區第二代、第三代的華裔僑界，甚至是主流青年都有接觸，也有接受媒體專訪。公開的部分，政委都非常努力，而且即時就會做成逐字稿，都放在網站上，如果大家有興趣的話，可以到PDIS的網站上看或者是閱讀。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "接下來是照片的分享，像這一場是在紐約大學，跟政委合照的這一位是歐巴馬前總統的首席，應該是副資訊長，提出要推動「開放政府」四個字的最重要靈魂幕僚，叫做Beth Noveck，她現在在紐約大學任教，邀請唐政委去演講。接著是哥倫比亞大學的照片，跟data science的博士對談，所以紐約兩個很重要的大學我們都去了。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "接著是在紐約辦事處大廳所辦並跟青年的對談，現場也有四位委員，包含徐永明委員、林靜儀委員、陳曼麗委員及李麗芬委員，政委身上穿的是這一次主軸要推的訊息，她身上的圓圈是SDGs 十七個顏色串成一圈，下面是「TaiwanCanHelp」，就是這一次外交部推案的主軸，其實「TaiwanCanHelp」是很簡單的口號，也許大家會覺得不是很catch，但其實它的概念就是要成為永續發展目標的夥伴，我們真的可以幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "接著是一些活動的照片，外交部這一次也派了一個小編隨行，每一場公開的活動都透過網路直播出去，可以讓不在紐約或者是對於政委活動有興趣的人都可以即時收看。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "政委也是一樣，把SDG的衣服穿在身上，我們有特別訂作一件彩色的、一件黑白的，還有接受「美國之音」的專訪。這是在紐約的亞洲智庫，右下角跟政委所照的是美國國務院前東亞助理國務卿Daniel Russel。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "很簡短跟大家介紹一下紐約之行，其實有一些比較實質、臺灣在外交上推動永續發展目標到底可以做什麼的例子及發想，像很多人都會詬病說錢都不知道花在什麼地方，像區塊鏈或者是背後的技術是分帳式帳本，雖然不是辦公室或是現在討論的主要要點，但臺灣在這一方面其實討論滿蓬勃發展的，技術、人才及經驗也都有，所以如果援外的資源花在什麼地方，可以透過分散式技術帳本記錄起來，而不會遭人篡改，對於援贈及受援的國家都是一個方式。這是其中一個有關於臺灣如何作為永續發展目標可以做的一個貢獻之一的例子，這一次我們去紐約有收到一些建議與需求。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "接著，這一次PO月會或者是PO月會都在討論的案子，甚至是兩年來的經驗，其實在國際上已經形成一股大家對我們的肯定跟小流行，已經有人來邀約把我們的經驗編入教材，所以大家的辛苦是有被肯定，透過政委每一次的出國，我們都有把大家的經驗分享帶出去，有遇到重要的朋友告訴我們是不是可以寫入教材，這個是滿令人值得雀躍的事情。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "大家可以想像寫入教材是可以用這一種方式走入聯合國，永續發展目標雖然是聯合國提出來的，這麼龐大的機構其實方方面面底下很多專業的人士，甚至是民間參與的人士並不是對於SDG有非常深入及廣泛地瞭解，所以教材下一步最重要的還是對於推廣我們要怎麼樣去認知永續發展及社會中的意識。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "公民參與政策跟PO的經驗，與永續發展有什麼關係？大家可以想一想，因為我們把每一個人都當作stakeholders，我們彼此合作、產出共識的過程中，其實是不會傷害到任何一方的利益，就跟SDGs 17目標象徵的意義是一樣的，不會傷害環境、以人為本的精神，是一個和諧的概念，所以大家每一天生活中實踐的公民討論、公民政策參與制定，其實都是跟SDGs相關。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "以上跟各位分享。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "上一次跟大家分享開放政府聯盟，因為他們是區域全球會議放在韓國首爾，我們也很高興，雖然我們還不是正式的會員，但是亞太區的負責人有來邀請我們去首爾演講，時間是11月5日、6日，題材是希望我們可以跟他們分享「Deliberative Decision-Making」，如果大家有興趣，會後可以來找我們，如果你有這個勇氣、熱情想要分享臺灣的經驗，從亞太地區散播到全球的話，這個是很好的場域，OGP是11月5日、6日在首爾的區域會議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝琬梅。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛簡報裡面有一張是我有show三個SDG 17的分項目表，也就是右上角這一張，因為Beth現在除了是教授之外，她還是紐澤西州所謂的「創新長」，她才擔任這個位置不久，不過也是要推行類似現在在做這一套的事情，所以簡單來講，合作這一個教材，第一個用戶是紐澤西州的公務員，第二個才會是國會圖書館對於美國各個議員跟助理的訓練課程，第三個才是剛剛提到的各種國際組織的具體合作案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個都是在永續發展的脈絡底下，那三個icon是17.18項，也就是確保資料品質的一致性，17.17項是確保我們跟公民社會是對等合作技術，17.6項是把我們釋出來一些價值的方法，發展中的國家不需要每一年付很高昂的授權費給我們，可以在本地運用這樣的創新，因為這一次國合會的負責人有去，我們會把接下來的東西把國合會變成對外提供的東西之一，以上是補充到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有想要詢問或者是討論的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都還好的話，我們就往下。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來照著議程走，有關於PO報告接下來協作會議的歷次報告，先請法務部報告「司法警察案」。" }, { "speaker": "羅柏", "speech": "法務部報告，9月21日雖然開議，但是這個案還是沒有列為優先法案，我們還在觀察，以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來請序號37，有關於衛福部「新一代國家健保憑證」。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這一個案子已經走到第三次的協作會議，明天會是政委跟健保署副署長定期的會議，所以目前還在進行中，正在準備第三次的協作會議。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "謝謝衛福部。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第二個報告案是之前有發過電子郵件給各位，接下來的預定可能召開的三場協作會議，在信中有帶到因為過去參與協作會議的形式是請各位旁聽或者是進一步擔任參與分組討論的成員，我們接下來希望更進一步一點。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果各位PO願意的話，我們可以讓各位PO試著當小桌長，並不會讓任何PO都沒有經驗的情況下當小桌長，還是會有人員陪同，我們會一起處理當時分組討論的狀況；另外一個部分是，擔任小桌長除了例行的協作會議必須召開兩次的正式會議，分別是會前會跟當天的協作會議之外，小桌長可能還要再出席其他兩個場合，一個是議題手冊編撰的成果確認，因為會議上會發放議題手冊，所以小桌長對於議題手冊要比較瞭解，比較方便在分組討論的時候帶領大家一起來做。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，在正式會議之前我們會有沙盤推演，這個沙盤推演也希望小桌長在場，如果有任何的突發狀況，我們也比較知道怎麼做因應，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有什麼想要討論或者是提出的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們今天應該沒有討論及投票的部分。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "對，沒有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請大家當作沒有看到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本來投票的這一段時間，國發會看起來有三個報告案，我們就不要耽擱太多時間，等一下進行的方式是，如果國發會在報告的時候，先稍微講一下希望聽到什麼東西，有沒有什麼想要提到具體的看法、意見之類的，每一個案報告完之後，大家稍微花費1、2分鐘想一下，再進入下一個報告案，如果可以的話，我們就先到報告議題。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "政委、各位大家好，報告一是「人別驗證功能及參與式預算提供服務」。我們當初會提這個報告案是跟各部會宣達，在參與平台有增加這兩個功能，其實在107年年初就已經完成了，我大概先說明一下人別驗證功能，這個功能主要是透過戶政系統來進行人別驗證，當初我們預計在今年初就可以提供使用，因為整個測試及相關作業流程，一直到今年年初才完成，戶政司這邊也在9月18日行文給各機關開放申請戶政系統的資料驗證服務。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "關於這部分的進度，國發會已經著手研擬使用戶政系統的作業規範，完整之後我們會給戶政司進行申請。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "有關於人別驗證功能，是可以提供參與平台上「提點子」的提案及附議，還有「眾開講」上面的議題徵詢意向調查，還有參與式預算的應用，如果各部會未來有想要使用這兩項功能的話，歡迎洽國發會，我們會協助各機關來辦理。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "第二，參與平台上的參與預算功能，這項功能在去年已經完成，我們已經推動各縣市政府導入使用，現在已經有新北市、台南市及高雄市導入了，如新北市政府在9月17日召開記者會已經正式實施參與式預算的線上投票，但是他們現在認證方式是用批次的，也就是投票完之後再把資料轉給新北市政府，他們再自行做驗證。台南市政府是介接是民卡資料驗證，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以有沒有什麼哪一些問題？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "中央部會在推參與式預算是只有文化部，我不知道其他部會有沒有類似參與式預算？文化部主要是跟社區發展協會那一塊相關，因為長久以來文化部負責推動這個，他們從105年、106年就結合基層鄉鎮市區公所，他們有提到未來會使用此參與式預算服務。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "有關於特定議定調查這一塊，那個是談滿久，主要地方政府的需求，中央部會還沒有聽過這個聲音，主要的需一開始的發想，是從高雄市的大林蒲遷村調查開始，因為大林埔遷村意向調查，受限於實體、現場投標沒有辦法接觸到設籍當地的投票人，因為不在當地居住，所以他們一開始有在找是不是可以做網路投票的，應該是在105年底的事情，後面才有作為參與式預算輔助功能(網路投票)的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "人別驗證這一塊主要是搭配戶政司的計畫，剛有提到9月中戶政司已開放申請，把後台那邊有開放各部會提供申請，實際上我們當然是希望透過這一些系統，以參與式預算來講，民眾使用身分證及出生年月日的資料來驗證，因為參與式預算會涉及到特定地區的人才能投票。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "目前在eID的基礎建設沒有完成以前，除了健保卡以外，其他完全做不到人別驗證，但是這個實際上還是比較偏向變通的方式，如通過自然人憑證驗證，因僅有5百萬餘人有自然人憑證，實際應用上有局限性，如果要推上去還是有問題。做參與式投票驗證，因為目前基礎環境尚未完備及普及性，因此才會有透過戶政系統的驗證的設計。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "各位可以發想，像特定議題、特定的地區可以做特定的調查都歡迎，也就是線上的系統調查。像衛福部在做衛生福利試辦都從離島開始，像以前健保就從澎湖縣開始，特定議題要當試辦做意向調查或者是示範性的時候，希望透過這個機制做意向調查的時候，可以使用這個服務。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "未來有eID可以上線的時候，當然可以更精準掌握到任何人投票的意向行為，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講兩點：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個是想問各部會除了文化部之外，有沒有其他這一種不管是參與式預算或者是特定地方性的意見徵集，當然這個徵集是綁預算、政策的這一些東西，如果覺得這個平台提供這樣的功能可以成為其中一個環節的話，很歡迎提出來，平台功能是可以改的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，如果看了這個之後，不一定是參與式預算，而是任何新的想像，也歡迎隨時提出來，因此歡迎大家在sli.do或者是其他的方式想一下可以怎麼用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我所知，教育部其實是有一個學生會的參與式預算培訓，一直培養有能力run參與式預算的人才，目前還是各地方縣市用得比較多，比較沒有中央部會在run，如果有興趣的話，其實我們也可以參考很多，最近滿多有創意的參與式預算，像桃園是讓在那邊的移工，像四個不同國家的移工來討論要用什麼樣的方式讓移工過得比較開心，最後第一年是泰拳比賽還是什麼之類的，所以他們分桌討論的時候，就有非常多翻譯的人員，不然大家都講本國的語言，其實無形之中也讓他們覺得政府不是把他們當作外人一樣，而是當作市政的參與者，所以我覺得那是滿好的例子，當然有關地方施政的話，議員一定會說為什麼讓外地人來投，這個就是國發會為何要建立這樣的平台，大家如果有什麼想法都很歡迎提出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有人問說是不是這個人的人別確認之後，好比有五歲以下的小孩，這種比較是身分，也就是串他的家族，你知道我的意思嗎？像現在要問公拖或是什麼政策。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "這是技術問題，可調查地區特定的人，只能再往下續問，我們第一個是先驗證身分，是不是特定的身分，也就是戶籍上某一個地區的人，後面才會往下續問，那個可以用搭配問卷的方式來處理，但是沒有辦法一開始綁定這個人是有醫生資格，因為現在目前是連結到戶政機關的系統。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "戶政機關的系統沒有職業別，實際上是沒有辦法的，但是可以進去以後來問他的行為。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果亂寫的話，你沒有辦法知道他是不是真的，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do上問是不是醫生，不管是不是衛福部的醫事人員或者是國稅局那邊才能知道他的實際職業別，有沒有五歲以下，那個戶役政可以處理的，只是要不要接及是否給接而已，之前有討論過嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "沒有。因為我們參與式預算，一般是十六歲或特定的年齡層以上，剛好比較特殊，有提到五歲以下。但是這一個部分還是屬於個人，變成是親屬關聯，也不在當初驗證的範圍底下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是可以反過來問，目的事業主管機關其實有這一些人的名冊或者是這一些人的資料，可以用後台介接的方式，好比像現在是目的事業主管機關，本來就有這樣的人的名冊，這一些人不管是用居住地價姓名，我這邊給一個API，讓你在徵詢的時候串回來，這樣有可能嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "可以。目前內政部戶政司那邊的介接還沒有上，主要是時程關係，目前兩個縣市，一個是桃園、另外一個是台南，台南跟桃園實際上都要介接市民卡，因為是從他們的戶政那邊轉到市民卡，整個機制是ok，因此介接由連結戶政資料就轉到市民卡資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來只要你提供接口，目前都是批次？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "即時。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你即時給資料，然後確認是否有身分別，只要確認是否有身分別的資料庫，只要網址給國發會，然後就機器對機器？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "我們不想保留太多的個資。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理論上都沒有給你？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "基本上是給一個代碼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就回答這一位朋友的問題，民眾也許還是會懷疑做問問卷之後，身分會外洩，在身分驗證的欄位去講說身分判斷是由什麼單位去做成，這個平台本身不會儲存任何的資料，事實上平台本來就會有隱私權聲明，你們改了嗎？也就是有關於人別驗證的部分。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "目前都是照舊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個也許可以稍微檢視一下，你們隱私權保護及資安政策裡面，本來好像沒有提到任何人別驗證的部分，所以也許如果不太麻煩的話，也許隱私權及資安政策裡面可以加一個專章，這樣的好處是，如果大家有疑慮的話，至少那個徵詢的單位可以引用這一頁，說明「個資不會存在國發會的電腦裡面，也不會有外洩的問題」，這樣大家會比較放心一點，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有其他想要提出來或者是詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都還好的話，就報告案。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "政委、各位PO、先進大家好，報告案第二個配合教育部青年署107年青年團隊政策好點子競賽，本會以深化公共策政網路參與為題，請青年團隊就平臺改善提出建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "主要是希望青年團隊就平臺民眾「提點子」提議情形，還有「眾開講」機關跟民眾互動的部分，提供相關的建議，本次有七組的青年團隊參加，經過初審、複審及決算之後，由｢嘿嘿嘿嘿｣青年團隊的「大眾普利思」獲得優勝，青年團隊之簡報如附件，另需於10月12日前回覆青年署，我們針對青年團隊所提建議之參採情形，請切到簡報的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "會針對簡報建議項目，對參採、不參採的部分來說明，先從機關面的部分來說，機關面的部分是希望「提點子」的內容之後續執行情形移到「來監督」之功能頁面，因「來監督」是行政院之各項列管計畫，考量民眾「提點子」之建議將難以直接對應到行政院之各項列管計畫，因此本項將回應青年團隊不建議納入修正，但是仍希望由機關「提點子」回應改善的部分來著手。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "有關於宣傳成效的部分，希望設立LINE跟APP的功能，或配合各地設展來作宣傳，目前已有臉書的之推廣，且因用LINE跟APP之建置將有人力及預算面的考量，故暫時沒有納入考量。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "在機關使用意願低的部份，建議開設網路平臺教學的部分，因目前已有開辦工作坊，這個部分將以工作坊調整來思考。在機關評核部份，因為每個部會的案件量不同，考量部會業務差異，比較難有效且公平的進行評核，因此會再詢問青年團隊之修正建議或其他的想法後，再決定是否納入施政參考。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "在回應民眾接受度低的部分，簡報提出是希望可以增加一些法規的補充，因為在機關回應的部分有分檢核沒有進入附議及成案後機關回應的部分，想請教部會對於機關回應格式的調整是不是有相關的建議。而在增設專家解說部分，因為團隊建議對於沒有進入檢核的部分邀請專家來說明，或是不進入檢核的回應來列點說明。因為大部分沒有進入檢核的案件，有些是非行政院的權責，有些是重複提案，這部份將會詢問青年團隊後，再決定是否納入施政參考。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "對於民眾「提點子」的部分，青年團隊發現民眾提案過於簡略或者是對部份民眾具網路操作使用門檻，又或者是沒有誘因，因此導致民眾提案意願比較低落，青年團隊建議可於提案增加標示說明範例，或者是提供輔導或問卷的方式來改善民眾的提案品質。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "就青年團隊的建議中，目前可以直接納入的有首頁簡圖的超連結，還有改善填答方式，可以標示增加文字說明或提供優良案例來讓民眾參考。另外青年團隊提供智慧查找建議，但因智慧查找功能之實際操作是以法條的案例來回推可以找到哪些相關的機關，然而大部分的民眾提案是從生活不便利或是請求補助方面來撰寫，若此一部分要與智慧查找相互對應的話，將請青年團隊來進行相關的補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "青年團隊希望設紙本問卷及機關輔導給想法的建議，在紙本問卷的部分，因為平臺其實是網路參與平臺，且機關其實已經有很多跟民眾互動的方式，像公聽會、說明會等等，而平臺成立之初是希望可以觸及到網路上的使用群眾，考量機關在實體與民眾互動面，已經許多原本管道與途徑，而且使用紙本跟網路參與的立意宗旨不太符合，所以這一項我們基本上不納入。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "給想法的部分是，目前平臺已經有協作討論，民眾希望進入檢核提議，機關應該要成立專責團隊給予輔導，因為這部分會有人力、預算的考量，所以暫時沒有納入，以上是整個民眾在「提點子」、「眾開講」改善建議當中提的建議的說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "因為10月12日要回應教育部青年署，所以如果各部會的PO有相關的建議，麻煩各位在10月5日以前email給我，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以聽起來有納入的部分，主要是介面及動線上的一些排列，所有跟各部會有關係的、有改變到各部會PO相關流程的都沒有參採，聽起來是這個意思（笑），應該沒有錯吧！不知道大家有沒有什麼想法或者是意見，這個是年輕人用類似服務設計的模式，用他們自己的習慣去做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來沒有參採改變使用習慣之外，還有一個是LINE幫助機器人，還有一個是等於用裝在手機上，類似像把網頁包裝變成APP，這個並不是因為流程會改，而是因為花錢，這兩個是因為預算的關係，並不是不好的主意，所以希望團隊看到逐字稿的時候可以安慰一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家有沒有其他想法，或者是覺得剛才提的可以再補充？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我沒有要針對原本的提案回覆，但是已經講到介面，我可以順帶一體，剛好我們家暑假的時候有跟幾個署、PO有在討論一件事，一樣是針對部會正式回應格式的部分，有沒有打算做一些調整？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "初衷是我們嘗試把過去的案例、完全沒有看過的，給署的同仁看完之後，大家最大的心得是太長了，都沒有看到三排情形就沒有耐心，氣憤的情緒就高漲了，有一個想法是，目前看下去會沒有耐心，也跟目前的欄位，大家都很熟悉我們的順序是四個，第一個是研商辦理情形、參採辦理情形、第四個是後續推動規劃，大部分的情況都會開始從法規有這個、幾年開始這個，一路到參採情形，後面有一些單位是20頁，到第10頁以後才會有參採情形。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "一個大方向的想法，並不是那麼精確，但是提出來給大家討論，我們有在思考，如果不動這四個欄位的順序之下，你去把參採情況放在最前面，這個是一個改法，是不是可以在最前面有一個類似摘要的欄位，但是這個欄位，我覺得可以看各單位習慣的做法，有一種方式是不做強制的選擇，前面也不要再安一個名字，也就是在前面有一個空白的欄位，也就是在前面寫一段話，把最重要的參採情形放在最前面，然後再講遠古時代的分析說明。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這個是我們幾個署、部PO在討論時有討論這一件事，我們有提出來給大家參考，我們希望有這樣的功能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家最不花力氣，而且可以回溯既往的做法其實等於是Peggy所說的做法。我們可以看到機關回應時，其實會有一個按下去才展開全部的部分，最便宜的做法，我覺得是在這邊就不要show分析說明，這邊就show參採情形，但是當你按閱讀之後就從「分析說明」看起，這樣大家最不需要有任何作業的做法，而且從國發會的角度來看，其實也不困難，因為只要找到「參採情形」那一段就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "前面還要加一段快速摘要的話，作業量會增加，那一段沒有寫好的話，記者就只抄那一段，我這邊的具體建議是，是不是回應日期、回應機關，然後就是參採情形，當然可以在視覺上，也許前面「…」，後面「…」，前面折紙、後面折紙，也就是一大段文章先給你看，然後再上下展開，這個是CSS的東西，不需要動到後端的程式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得參採情形先看到，大家比較有耐心，就可以先把分析說明看完。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do上有兩個問題，有一個朋友表達「集點換獎品的做法，這恐怕會吸引到很奇怪的部分，會造成奇怪的連署結果」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實有各種利誘來達成連署的目標，我們之前接近快兩年前有開過一次會議，也就是各位PO出席第一次會議，也就是用廣告或者是送東西的方式，連署是不是不算？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當時的結論是，根本沒有辦法確定哪一些人是看廣告來的，所以就算了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果平台自己去獎勵特定連署案的話，這個意義比較說不過去，大家會覺得有樣學樣，我也覺得不一定需要這樣子，就看大家覺得怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一位應該……是上一個題目，也就是人別確認或者是yes or no，國發會有沒有一套說明書？如果我是目的事業主管機關，我可以拿OAS3（OpenAPI Spec）的說明拿給我的廠商，說只要實作長這樣子的API，國發會就可以介接，就不用一個個打電話call你們？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "跟戶政的介接其實比較嚴謹，因為要申請VPN。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "跟桃園的？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "跟台南市目前也是這個模式，但是不是走VPN。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，是走HTTPS。至於這一段通訊的API可以記下來，可以用OAS3的方式，等於一個技術文件發布，各位PO們真的回去要用的話，不用打電話來問，至少可以拿給廠商說「實作這個就可以了」，可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有其他要提出來的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們還有報告三。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "有關於參與平台成案回應參採情形功能調整。依2月28日PO的會議結論｢成案議題權責部會於Join平臺回應為「將民眾提議納入研究」等，經一定時程始有具體成果者，請國發會建立管考機制，於回應後每半年追蹤處理進程，並提本會議報告。｣目前功能的規劃說明如下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "本會先就成案已回應的案件，區分參採、部分參採及納入研議並列入後續追蹤等樣態，詳細列表如附件，請部會參閱。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "在參採、不參採的部分比較明確，就是回應的時候，是不是全案參採或全案不參採，而在部分參採的部分，因為有的案件，民眾的訴求可能有兩、三項，有一部分是參採、一部分是不參採，或是機關在回應的時候，有的是納入研議、有的已經現有法規規範，如果整體回應部份涵蓋各種情形，列為部分參採。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "但有另一部份的機關的回應，是將提案內容列為未來後續規劃考量或審慎評估，這一個部分就會納入研議進行後續追蹤，請各位參閱附件4，並確認初步勾選的內容是否正確，若需修正，請於10月15日前提出。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "目前平臺功能正在修正，爾後有新增之機關回應時，麻煩機關於回應時一併於平臺勾選是參採情形。另外，有些政策一開始的時候是納入研議，但是經研議或調整後，為參採之案例，平臺亦開放修改，像教育部之前有一個案子有關於教師費的，在106年11月9日時之回應是需報行政院核定後實施，回應時會勾選「納入後續追蹤」，而在107年7月16日已納入參採，機關在更新回應時，便可在平臺調整參採情形之選取，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do上有兩個問題，一個是有具體成果，像本來的研議，現在變成參採了，這個是要追蹤多久或者是多少次，不過我的理解是你們的功能是把本來有的，也就是有進度來回應的這個功能有一個很明確的標示，也就是這個進度的意思是什麼，干涉或者是影響到本來的題目要追蹤多少次的這一件事，還是有的？請跟我們說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "2月提到的是，如果是研議中，政策當中如果是參採跟完全不參採是很明確的東西，研議中是不是會有一個研議的進度到哪裡，當初就有提到半年瞭解一下進度，有一點類似追蹤目前的辦理情形。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "當初在實施要點規定當中，是比較具體的東西出來，讓民眾瞭解政府實際上在推動或研議的進度，並不是像以前在回民意信箱說會納入參採，但是實際上後續研議結果有參採、沒有參採並不會再回信給民眾。當時是比較明確說上次(2月)有決議，因此就瞭解一下，看目前研議的進度是到哪裡，在網路上回應民眾，當初的想法是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "有一些議題會涉及到四項或五項議題(訴求)，跟民眾做一些釐清或者是訴求的時候，也就是有很多細項，同仁報告的是，以這個案子來講是參採或是部分參採，但是這樣就沒有辦法很精確，像四項訴求，這個是參採、那個是不參採，就針對某一項訴求後面的處理程序。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "以前這邊提的是整合案子來看待這一件事，如果要以各訴求管理，就要麻煩各位，你們在回應的時候，就要拉出來看那一項是參採或者是不參採。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講有三個訴求，我們經過六十天之後，參採了兩個，另外一個回應中，因此你會希望這一個部會回兩次，等於第一個是參採，然後他說：「我參採了訴求一跟訴求二，另外一個是研議中」，也就是參採的部分打一包、不參採的部分打一包，研議中的打一包，參採是回應三個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣「部分參採」還有意義嗎？嗯，我覺得這樣還是有意義，像只有一個訴求，也就是要1塊只給5毛，這就是部分參採？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這四種都是針對裡面各項獨立的具體訴求，有些訴求有參採，打一包回應，有一些不參採的打一包回應，1元給5毛的，所有其他都用研議中來回應，大部分的提案其實只有一項訴求的話，就跟現在的做法是完全相同的，是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "裡面如果是持續追蹤，然後就研議中，過了半年，只要有新的進度，不一定是參採或者是不參採，希望半年之後再回來一次，也就是做了哪一些是去擴大研議，當然這半年來事實上事情沒有發生，像司法警察那一案的話，大概也不用特別再回來回應，因為一次說這半年都沒有做，好像也沒有對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是有發生事情，這五千人都不知道再回來，到最後決定再參採或不參採，然後就結束了，所以並不會沒有重點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友說「已經有相關政策、民眾可以逕行運用，跟『不參採』好像有點距離」，這個有沒有什麼想法？好像現在已經提了一個，但是這個並不用提，因為事情就是這樣，這個不是不參採才對嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "民眾提的訴求跟政府的政策事實上是一致的，但是不知道是不是要用參採或者是不參採。像機車改裝的時候，事實上交通部是用目前的法規跟民眾說明，實際上這一題在成案滿意調查是相對低的。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "我提的意思是，交通部認為你提的訴求，現有的法規實際上是可以執行的，但是民眾認為你的法規執行跟落實到地方，因為改裝的過程中，常常被抓，落實是有很大的距離，因此他認為不應該用法條來回應目前我的訴求，中間一方面認為現有已經有規定了，但是民眾認為縱使有規定，但是做法實際上並沒有這麼開放，因此是不是只有參採、不參採，也就是跟政策方向一致、已在推了。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "另外一個是有一點像釐清，比如民眾誤解，不知道政府在推行，像衛福部就認為都可進入附議，因為民眾有關於政策的時候，希望部會成案的過程，讓民眾瞭解政府實際上的作為跟民眾的訴求是一致的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不知道兩位PO有沒有處理到這一案，以我的理解，聯繫提案人之後是列了一堆要改裝的部分，目前的規則是不能改的，像周距改長的，有一些是不能改的，那個是部分參採嗎？我不知道交通部的想法。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "這個沒有特別的想法，本來有一些政策的規劃是有一些可行，其實也沒有禁止，可能在意的是實務執行上的問題。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "有些確實是一些研擬上來講，絕對還不適宜開放的，其實我個人覺得這一種分類是很困擾的，有沒有可能比較簡單化一點，因為分了好幾種，大家在想說講的這一句話到底算哪一種，看一看都不參採就不用追蹤，好像不是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都不參採，後面也不用追蹤。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "是不是有可能簡化一點，也就是覺得種類很多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來，確實要1元只給5毛的情況，我們也可以說只給5毛，之後也就是5毛了，這樣當然是部分參採，這樣沒有問題。如果後來變成1元，也可以變成「全部參採」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但並不是「勾部分參採，後來就一定要追蹤」，沒有這樣的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果這邊的提案有既定立場，然後有某個程度重疊，那就是「部分參採」，也不用割成兩塊，一塊參採、一塊不參採，我覺得大家都省一點力氣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位協辦機關問，我們是交給主辦去回嗎？主辦去回幫我們勾，我們是作建議嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "目前是以主辦機關來回應，彙整是主辦機關。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "各回一次，這個是大家都很有經驗了，協辦到底是否算參採，我們尊重主辦機關的裁量，但是協辦機關很明顯提供資料的話，其實也不需要告訴主辦機關這個算不算參採，但是如果有相關的建議還是建議主辦機關，不過最後還是他說了算，但是這個沒有什麼問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有些朋友說「有些政策規劃是來來去去很難定」，如果現在回應不參採，現在兩個月回來參採，會不會有一點U-turn的狀況發生，我不知道國發會在規劃介面的時候，是不是有一種本來不參採，後來參採了，有沒有比較不奇怪的方法？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "如果原來不參採，後來改參採，這個有政策上的轉折，我們是在談研擬中，如果不參採會不會改參採，實際上應該也可以，我們沒有強制部會來這邊作回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我可不可以作一個具體的建議，好比像把不參採改成「暫不參採」之類的，要凹也比較好凹，你知道我的意思嗎？你講暫不參採，後來參採，大家覺得很奇怪，但是你現在改不參採，然後後來參採，所以是不是加一個「暫」，就說「暫時參採」，我覺得至少閱讀起來比較不會那麼不順。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可是不參採還是需要的，像要退稅那一案就是「不參採」，而不是「暫不參採」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但我覺得不需要去寫「永不參採」，你知道我的意思嗎？我記得是退稅那一案，財政部的回應是「等真的稅入大於稅出、國債也還清的時候，再回來想這一件事」，是這樣吧！" }, { "speaker": "楊金亨", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以可見並不是永不參採，而是哪一天沒有赤字、國債還完了，那可以來考慮一下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有一些是跟學理及政府運作的方式是完全不相容？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣檢核就不會過了，檢核讓他過的，當然理論上他不違憲、理論上我們做得到，他沒有違反物理定律。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但確實好比像退稅案，對不起，我一直舉這一個案子，但是它就是要實際到變成國債還完了、有多的錢可以退稅。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "雖然可見的未來可能看不到，但是我們現在蓋一個「永不參採」有一點奇怪，好像不是這樣，所以可以有一個「暫不參採」。" }, { "speaker": "楊金亨", "speech": "當如果稅收真的多出來，也就是多一個預算的話，並不是財政部去回應這個，整個以往的概念來講，就是國發會規劃消費卷，又或者是主計總處。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實，如果有稅出非常少、稅入非常多的那一天，這也不會是財政部來回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是沒有說永不參採的情況，也就是說這個前提永遠不會達成，我覺得反而也會衍生額外的爭議，所以我覺得如果可以用「暫不參採」的話，是不是先試試看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有人問暫不參採是不是不追蹤？對，就不用了，除非事情有一些變化，忽然變成部分或者是全部參採，才需要回來讓大家知道，不然就跟現在一樣，六十天回應暫不參採，就這樣子了，所以有變化才會回來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "研議很久了怎麼辦？每半年有新進度就回來報告嗎？聽起來是這個意思，如果半年來什麼事都沒有發生就算了。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "原則上是通知過來看一下，沒有就像剛剛講沒有就沒有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果完全沒有，你發一封給五千人說都沒有發生，這大概沒有什麼好處，如果有任何相關的事情，就提醒一下，也有朋友說讓業務單位更認真看待，也有朋友說沒有辦法具體回應，我們就部分參採。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友問說「原不參採，但是政策改變，但是改變的時候還不確定參不參採」，也就是要擴大討論或者是怎麼樣，也就是u-turn正在右轉的時候，是不是可以先回應一次，對外表示重新「納入研議」，這個系統應該做得到，那就這樣，至少可以兩次右轉，感覺上稍微smooth一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有一位朋友在回應的時候考慮紅綠燈，也就是把具體訴求切成幾個小塊，有一些是參採，有一些沒有辦法，有一些是在研議中，如果可以很明確切成這三塊的話，甚至回應的時候就直接回三次，這個滿具體的一件事，這個是不是表示我們參採部分跟暫不參採要用顏色區分？我想這個交給專業的網站團隊來規劃這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我想確認一下，因為事前有先問一下國發會，就是這個分類是我們自己內部追蹤用的分類，或者是前台民眾也看得到的分類？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "政委也有提到參採與否是不是要用顏色來區分，我先講一下這個是我個人的想法，大家可以知道光是討論什麼，什麼是參採、不參採及部分參採，其實大家的定義就不一樣，我會比較傾向這個分類是留在內部的追蹤，而不是留給外部的民眾看，這個爭議 上比較小一點。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第二，剛剛高分有提到，我想再確認一次社會影響跟業務單位如何看待這一件事，所謂研議中半年的追蹤一次，具體的方式是像剛剛所說的，是用email的形式嗎？是用email寄給PO，這個清單可以請你們確認一下，大概具體的流程，目前已經有一些想法可以比較明確的話，也可以讓我們知道一下，我們比較有心理準備。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第三，還是要繞回一些很無聊的細節，以下的例子我不知道該如何分類。舉例來講：有一些情況是當初希望立法的方式來處理，標題就是要訂法，但是談完之後，我們覺得比較希望用行政命令來處理，跟原本的想法有沒有落差？反而強度比較大，但是最後以個人來講是免為接受，以方法的部分來處理問題，像這樣的部分是部分參採嗎？對我來講，區分上有一點困難。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "再者，有一些情況是提案本身，像高分提到認知是錯的，所以提了一個無法真正落實的東西，因為他的認知就是錯的，所以後來跟他溝通完之後，我們提了一個另外比較想要的方案，提案人個人已經接受了，但在這樣的情況下，訴求本身錯誤的情況下，我要怎麼樣分類到這幾個分類？這是會碰到一些實務操作的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "半年追蹤通知方法是技術問題，是不是可以先回答？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "我們還是用電子郵件通知，因為通知PO跟通知機關，因為有時機關回應不見得是PO，原來上面回應是用通知。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外我們回應的，不管現在標成什麼，我們是完全只有後台看到吧？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是前台的參採情形在展開之前，我們剛剛說會show參採情形，你要押一個戳印上去，或者是把參採情形那一欄要加一個小標記，或是目前是什麼情況？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "機關在回應的參採情形，比如上面都標示，比如訴求一什麼、訴求二是什麼，事實上都很明確，只是在後台裡面所謂剛才提到參採、部分參採那一塊，事實上是只有機關在後台看到，並不會在前台顯示。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以大家不用擔心你標了一個「暫不參採」，媒體就報導「○○部：暫不參採」的這一個問題，我們講的都是後台的設定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想，要留一個「暫不參採」和「研議中」的區別，是因為每案的窗口不像PO這麼穩定，可能已經過了半年是不同的人了，如果是完整的紀錄，我想大家在措詞上也會比較容易一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "前台唯一的改變，也就是參採的情形比較醒目，然後按了之後再展開到分析說明，其他的是前台不變。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有要提出來的？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "所以我們就在後台自己分類？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。這個不可能分到很細，如果真的要分到很細的話，就是用純文字說明，會變成和現在一樣。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我們來這邊有討論，就會變成PO自己會把關，因為其實大家都討論到，一些部分參採的情況，要列為「研議中」才會繼續追蹤，列為「部分參採」就不會被追蹤，這到底要不要繼續追蹤，其實掌握在PO自己的手上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒錯，就是看你要不要追蹤，來決定標成「部分/全部/暫不參採」或是標成「研議中」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以「研議中」的意思是半年之後還想聽到它，標成「部分/全部/暫不參採」的話，半年之後可能就不用特別追蹤了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有要提出來討論或者是分享的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，差不多一個小時結束會議……" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "……還有討論案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那進討論案。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "這個是提請討論的，提點子驗證在7月2日有調整為類實名制的做法，以前驗證確認是用手機或電子郵件擇一回傳，像手機就回傳驗證碼，用電子郵件就要按一個按鍵回傳，就等於附議成功。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "主要是從去年時區案開始，2個對立的提案，爭議性很大，有一點類似雙方不同立場的動員，然後就衍生到質疑對方有多重附議的情形。今年4月11日實施要點修訂公告，提議及附議要先用手機跟電子郵件登錄，一次性認證後才能提議及附議。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "驗證的方式，是用open ID或者是自己的電子郵件，那個實際上是綁帳號，但是後面一定要做兩個驗證，要確認電子郵件是不是正確的，另外一個是要用手機驗證，因為手機為類實名制，所以可以找得到人。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "目前驗證到現在，已完成的門號是8萬4,000名，也就是7月4日到9月20日，部分重複驗證的情形，因為主要後面手機是單一的，電子郵件實際上是開放，只是綁手機驗證，但是電子郵件是多重的，而且有部分的議題是涉及到學生，高中生幾乎都有手機，但是國中以下的那一個階段，其實部分學生是有手機的。考量一個是弱勢家戶及學生，還有一個是資深公民，當初沒有綁那麼緊，也就是一個手機連結一個電子郵件，變成一個手機可以連結到多個電子郵件，就會有剛才談的一個手機有多重電子郵件的情形。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "我們內部討論說未來是不是單一個議題，如果這個議題是以手機計算附議，但是最多一個手機有六個附議人，因此在附議時，就提醒已經超過這一則有多次議題情形。這個又不方便對外說明平台允許一個人投六次，就像改版前可以用三個Open ID用的時候，提議者或附議者在做串聯附議的時候，就曾說平台允許一個人附議三次云云。今年因選舉因素，11月26日提點子重新上線的時候，看看是不是要一個手機帳號最多連結六個或者是三個電子郵件帳號。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "使用手機登錄驗證會有一些反彈，也收過幾次客服信件，表示真的沒有手機的現象，因此想聽聽各位的意見，看看未來是不是一個手機綁六個？因為全國家戶平均人口數是2.7人，依照戶政司的統計資料裡面，全國家戶平均是2.7人，因此是直接用6人，看看有沒有要調整的，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想一個手機綁七百五十八個帳號當然不行，不能讓這樣的情況繼續存在。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於實際綁定的戶數，我想問客服收到的，是他自己沒有手機，又或者是連他的家人都沒有手機？這個是兩個不同情況。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "他沒有手機。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是他可以找有手機的朋友？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "一定可以找得到，除非他沒有朋友。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本日金句是「要有手機，就找朋友」。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有人問說是不是要去「眾開講」徵詢意見，國發會的立場是不想把這一件事搞大，如果大家都知道可以綁定五個電郵的話，每個人就都來註冊五個帳號。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我剛剛看這個附件，其實大部分都是一對一，一對二的情況，其實已經不到5％，也就是已經非常少了，一對三、一對四已經可以快要不計的情況，目前一對一是7萬個左右，也就是6萬9,000個，一對二是2,200，接下來幾百個而已，感覺上不管是開放三個或者是四個或者是到六個，其實影響的人沒有很多了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就看大家有沒有特別的意見？因為剛剛講到平均家戶人口數那個是很好的evidence，我們可以直接說綁定二點七個，也就是三個門號。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這樣子有人問為什麼，就可以說確定家戶是二點七個，等以後人口方案有成效再來增加。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有朋友認為1對1是實際一點，最多是三個，確實，我也覺得超過三個已經不好defense。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友突然打了一個廣告說g0v summit歡迎大家報名，PDIS有三個議程，Peggy會當主持人，從國發會的網站報名的話，國發會會幫大家出錢，也就是公務同仁可以免費參加，所以還不錯，事實上那個門票是滿貴的，感謝國發會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好像只有四十個國發會的名額，所以如果真的超過的話，我不知道會不會追加，但是目前已經三百多名報名了，所以還滿值得去的，一張去是2,000元，所以感謝國發會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友問說我summit要講的主題是什麼，我剛剛講的是「邁向數位國家的想像」、「推動國家數位轉型想像」會跟加拿大也是類似加拿大政府裡面公共創新的人，還有跟法國的一個教授討論數位國家創新經濟方案跟其他國家，就是法國跟加拿大有什麼不一樣，大概是這樣子。但是我那一場比較無聊，比較有趣的是馬克、雨蒼、芳睿據說會當場吵架，去討論開放政府聯絡人的挑戰與展望，我是第二天，Peggy會同時主持社群參政的那一軌，我覺得那一軌比較有趣，可以去聽。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我們認為所有的人都會去政委那一場，所以在你一開始演講的那一句話就說「歡迎到隔壁」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一軌上午是「你的明白並不是我的明白」，包含「vTaiwan」、芳睿、沃草，還有一個「Sense..tw」，也就是所有做這一種知情討論會有一個大亂鬥，下午的時候會有科技跟選舉相關的一些議題，我覺得這一些都滿有意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "再往下是Peggy主持的那一場，包含了做資料開放的王向榮、投票指南的駱勁成，以及臺灣公務力量的理事長MH。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼Peggy是主持人而不是講者，這我就不知道了（笑），但我覺得那一場會滿精彩的，我在數位國家那一場會說「請大家到隔壁去」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有朋友們想要去的話，請善用國發會四十幾張免費的票，盡可能善用資源。如果有非公務員的朋友，也可以線上報名。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有沒有其他的意見？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有意見的話，今天會議就到這裡結束。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們準時開始，我們有一小時左右的時間，慢慢吃。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "今天時間稍微比較趕一點，簡短報告，今天的討論大概分成兩大部分，第一階段：署這一個月過去努力生出一些對PDIS建議的回饋想法與方案，就我所知，今天PDIS上午也已經看過署內的簡報且也有先收攏PDIS的意見，還有今天行政院資安處的簡處長也在，第一階段就請盡量給我們一些意見。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第二階段：關於第三次協作會議，目前有這些署內準備的基礎方案後，協作會議如何起頭？第三次協作會議的時間、形式等，希望今天做出一些大方向的確認。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "時間是健保署先報告，然後PDIS由馬克報告。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "大家好，健保署報告一下在這段期間於健保卡規劃的方向，等一下也會針對院裡提供建議，本署有一些回應，第三次協作會議我們應該有什麼樣的方案來跟相關利害關係人進行討論，從國發會審議後，署內召開兩次的協作會議，期間也有跟PDIS共同討論出五項建議。在今年9月部長跟政委有一個會面，有個初步的指示我們等一下會說明。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "我們署內召開這個會議之後，有提出方案上的規劃：部長跟政委的討論有三個主要的方向，現行的實體卡我們保留，採虛實並行的方式，但是因為實體卡先前有提到是Triple DES的加密技術，所以是不是在實體卡的資安部分，也就是不影響user端的情況之下進行改善，虛擬健保卡的部分有多種方案來進行試辦，但是不要設期限，測試好的時候再全面上線。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "我們這一張卡片在以醫療情境使用為主，不再附加其他的行動支付或者是其他的功能，這個是政委跟部長那邊討論主軸的指示。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "我們針對8月21日跟政委及PDIS討論的就醫情境的五項建議，我們跟大家摘要一下，針對居家有幾個建議情境，一個是電話的方式來取得token，民眾家裡會沒有網路，所以用電話來當作token來當作媒介。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "另外，按家的網路方便，我們透過APP及網路的方式來認證，這個是居家的情境。在民眾看診的情境有三個健保卡的虛擬卡的建議方案，一個是用區域連線，當時談到的是用藍牙，還有一個是一次性token的方式，還有政委建議的是暫時性或可讀化的IC卡，大概是這五項。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "先前在協作會議也有談到是不是要考量授權機制，但是署內是考量到底要授權給誰，因為費用能不能授權或者是小朋友的撫養權會轉換，我們認為整個授權機制很複雜，可能不是資訊方面的複雜，到底誰被授權這一件事很複雜。而且如果虛實併行，不方便取得行動卡的部分，他就用實體卡，因此我們建議未來虛擬卡不要去規劃授權的這一件事，我建議朝這個方向辦理。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "接著我們就這五個院裡建議的方案來回應，針對第一個是透過居家網路不通的地區，也就是透過電話來取得服務的部分，因為署裡覺得可能要有電話總機，比較特別的是居家的個案是比較不方便，也就是可能協助他處理這一些，因此如果有人登入這一些token，可能會有登入錯誤的情況。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "另外，因為案家是網路通話的地區，這一些個案都是行動不便，使用手機的機率也不高，針對居家的情境，我們署內提出儘量模擬現在診間情境的居家輕亮藍牙讀卡機的方案。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "居家民眾還是用實體的健保卡，居家訪視的團隊，他要申請中華電信VPN行動上網，可能手機是Android或者是Apple，我們安裝藍牙的讀卡機用實體卡的方式來模擬現在的診間，地區是網路通暢的話，跟現行居家不同，醫療人員到居家可以連到健保署的IDC來取得資料，目前這個部分是沒有辦法做到，我們建議採用模擬診間的方式來用居家藍牙的方式來提供服務。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第8頁）有一些居家還是居家環境網路不是那麼方便連線，我們看一下上面，如果團隊到容易有網路環境的話，其實整個提供服務就跟現行的診間一模一樣，服務完就可以上傳一些資料到健保署，就可以產生處方箋，整個技術好像在市面上並不是那麼成熟，院所可能要為了臨時性的IC卡，整個作業流程跟現行不太一樣，我們擔心院所感覺這個流程很複雜，所以我們最後的建議是請大家看下一頁。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第10頁）區域連線跟一次性token，也就是條碼的方案，院裡建議的第三個方案，只是我們建議是採NFC，署的主要建議是用一次性的條碼，是one time password，這個是署的建議方案；另外一個院裡建議的區域連線，我們建議採NFC的方案，我們還是希望以條碼為主，但是如果民眾在掃描的時候，如果選擇要有個人密碼的話，我們認為這個一定要做驗證，因為考量這兩個技術，QR code跟NFC都是市面上比較成熟的技術，我們覺得用這個方案來執行，可能會相對比較容易。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第11頁）我們等一下會就整個領卡、報到、就診、遺失處理報告，如果民眾都可以用NFC或者是QR code，希望可以取代網路現行的服務認證，可以取得健保認證，也就是變成網路認證的基礎。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第12頁）我們從民眾請領卡的部分，我們比較建議臨櫃辦理，民眾來的時候，拿著有照片的證件來臨櫃綁定手機民眾附的照片是最新的，針對行動裝置我們建議一個人就申請一張的虛擬卡，剛剛提到沒有授權的設計，一臺行動裝置就綁定一張虛擬卡，所以如果民眾有更換行動裝置的話，我們建議要重新綁定新的虛擬卡。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第13頁）民眾帶了身分證文件及相片來之後，可以取得QR code或者是密碼，我們模擬一下在手機上會show出一張畫面，就是拍出一張QR code，完成之後再離開。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第14頁）這個是取得卡片的部分，掛號報到的話，剛剛有提到兩個方案，一個是可以用一次性通行碼來作掃描的報到，院所端要有什麼配備，如果是A方案就是一次性條碼，要購買掃描器，價格是1,500元至3,000元，如果是採NFC方案的話，讀卡機的價錢比較低是1,000元，因為上面有照片可以來辨識及確認身分，剛剛提到如果虛擬卡上面有設密碼也是要進行認證，醫師卡的部分就按照現行，或者是未來醫事司的卡虛擬化也會變成調整。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "我們再看看診的情況，因為我們有兩個方案，因為QR code在手機上是沒有辦法寫資料的，所以民眾拿這個虛擬卡之後，產生畫面3的QR code，院所的電腦也出現民眾的照片及其他一些資訊，確認掃描讀完之後連到民眾的就醫序號、保險的身分註記看病，我們預定不要寫資料，所以我們希望醫生看完診就寫到雲端資料庫，雲端資料庫現在存的資料就是實體健保卡存的資料，院所在24小時，在最後申報的資料再傳給我們，這個是方案A，跟NFC方案最大的差異是讀寫必須要寫在雲端，我們看方案B，也就是NFC方案的話，前面都一樣。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "讀寫的時候，因為NFC方案可以直接寫在手機端，但是目前會有一個問題，iPhone目前沒開放，民眾iPhone的手機沒有辦法使用，但是好處是民眾手機上讀寫的資料就會跟實體健保卡是一樣的，所以A、B最大的差異是，QR code方案是沒有要寫資料在手機端，用NFC方案，資料會寫在手機端。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "剛剛提到到底實體健保卡及虛擬健保卡有什麼不一樣？實體卡上有的欄位虛擬卡也有，院所連到雲端原先在健保卡的資料，如果是B方案，是直接從手機端可以取得資料。跟現行健保卡一樣，民眾有設密碼，可以限定醫療人員來設定資料。如果沒有網路的情況下，民眾用QR code的方案一，如果沒有辦法連線的話，就沒有辦法查詢我們寫在雲端的資料，這個就會對於緊急情況—也就是網路不通的話—其實會對民眾就醫在這個地方會有一點不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "如果卡片註銷的時候會如何處理？實體卡、虛擬卡不在的話，會有兩個情況，如果遺失的話，就是要重新申請虛擬卡，如果要註銷你的虛擬卡，就直接上我們的署的網站去辦理註銷就可以了，如果實體卡不在，虛擬卡還在的話，因為實體卡遺失，所以同步虛擬卡也失效，所以民眾實體卡不見，就是要重新申請實體卡、也要重新申辦虛擬卡，但是兩個一起都不見的話，那就先辦新的實體卡，再申辦虛擬卡，以上是健保卡從申請到醫療使用至註銷。" }, { "speaker": "黃珮珊", "speech": "（簡報第19頁）我們預計之後要開第三次協作會議，就以這樣的方案來跟相關利害關係人討論，看這樣的方案大家有什麼意見。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "其實這個是在規劃時，大概從技術上來看我們碰到最大的問題是，也就是跟醫院間系統串聯的問題，我們在技術上的評估，其實一開始的出發點是找市面上比較成熟的技術，說實在的，我們沒有什麼能力去新創一個技術出來。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "再來，希望這個技術是可以單純，意思是希望這個技術一次走到位，不是A技術加B技術考量，當然相對來講是可以各取優點，但是就系統發展來講，我們覺得在做系統立場排除的時候，問題比較多，我們希望技術從頭走到尾的方式考量。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "另外，在資安的考量上，如果採用市面上比較成熟的技術，相對來講，資安的問題都已經做過適當的評估了，認為可行的才留存在這個市面上，如果資安有疑慮的，其實早就被淘汰掉了，大概是這個考量，在診間的部分是有這樣的考量。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "在居家醫療跟偏鄉化的考量點不一樣，調查很多暫時性的醫療團隊，其實患者不一定有手機，被照顧的人沒有手機，現實生活根本出不了門，對他們來講手機的意義沒有那麼大，或者是獨居的人，考量也沒有那麼大，如果他沒有手機，如果我們做手機訊息業務來看，就會有一些人沒有辦法cover到，這一些人用例外就業的方式處理嗎？這個是現況來講，但是我們認為是比較普及式的做法，所以我們考慮以後，用生卡的方式發展，而且實體卡根據這兩次大家討論的結果，實體卡的結果也是會存在滿長的時間，因為大家覺得實體卡是既有的架構，不是一、兩天會被取代的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "在偏鄉上有一個很重要的考量，一般我們在診間的時候，如果發生資訊系統的問題，在醫院或者是診所都有可能直接找到資訊人員協助，但是在偏鄉醫療是沒有機會的，當場去就醫生、護士一個人，所以就cover所有的東西，因此我們希望偏鄉醫療的居家單純化的含量越單純越好，因此我們比照用接觸卡的方式來做存取的方式，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我問三個確認的問題：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，在居家的場景裡面，剛才所謂醫療團隊理論上是可以用虛擬團隊，手機是照相機，理論上可以照QR code，因為可能會產生資訊方面的操作問題等等，所以我們在居家醫療團隊裡面，不會有資訊人員的前提下，我們等於這一個部分先不做測試，並不是技術上做不到，這個是一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，剛才看到NFC，你說iPhone目前沒有辦法使用，那個是指讀取都沒有辦法讀取的意思嗎？理論上我們是可以向蘋果申請，也就是「Express Card with power reserve」，我不是幫它（Apple）做廣告，沒電還是可以感應，這解決了協作會議提出的一個主要問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前聽起來，我們測的時候是可以用Android測。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們是不是可以向蘋果申請，我們要做NFC感應的這一件事？還是其實我們是以條碼為主，NFC就算了。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我想這個都可以討論，目前有一些限制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要先放在白名單。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "目前確實走NFC，就是目前看財經公司「臺灣pay」也做感應功能，也只做Android，理由也是因為iOS的一些限制，所以這一個部分如果大家都走到第一步，所以就可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你的意思是等到大家的使用習慣到那個程度，我們再跟上？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為現在大家加LINE都是掃條碼，先用大家比較習慣的先做，但並不是排除未來？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，因為現在是用QR code或是bar code為主，這個意思是基本上就不寫回我的手機，如果要寫回我的手機，如果要寫回的話，那就是雲端同步回來，我剛剛這邊看起來是沒有發生的，一定要二十四小時之後，健保資料庫才會收到，如果我的手機要收到的話，我是二十四小時去哪裡嗎？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "跟政委報告一下，因為QR code的方式是透過一個方式去中介，也就是雲端的方式，目前IC卡的作業是有二十四小時要上傳系統的問題，所以維持這個方式的話，說不定還有機會取代，說不定可以直接省略掉，因為當初已經到雲端去了，當然技術上都可以做，我們還有一個健康存摺，其實某種程度也是做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "黃色箭頭是否有必要，我只是在問這一件事。理論上黃色箭頭左邊跟右邊是同一臺機器，又或者是不是同一台機器？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "左邊是醫院的系統，右邊是自己的系統。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要查詢，就醫院對醫院連？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "左邊不一定是醫院系統，醫院系統本來就一定有存，只是如果在雲端暢通的情況下，其實是可以做到直接寫到雲端，所以左邊跟右邊某種程度就是在健保署的範圍。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "並沒有法令是二十四小時要同步，如果要二十四秒之後同步也是醫院的自由？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這個是上禮拜收到健保署的簡報之後，我們這邊稍微大家一起整理出來對簡報上的疑惑，基本上整個方向應該是這樣，大家應該記得上次開會時，我們有針對一個筆記討論它的流程，接下來健保署的同仁帶回去，幫我們更詳細確認這個流程是否可行之後才有今天這一場會議。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "上次的流程有提到一些需求，我把每一個需求列出來，然後像臨櫃申請，同時綁定手機，然後在哪一頁的投影片當中有提到，如果有一些疑惑的地方，我們會以黃色的字標示。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "上次有提到虛擬卡申請的時候，可能有兩種情境，一個是臨櫃辦理，有另外一個做法是想要輸入基本的資料，從網站上直接下載虛擬卡的部分，可能想要情況健保署的同仁說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前提到手上有比健保卡強，像自然人憑證，為什麼不讓他這樣做。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "看是要一段一段還是要全部走完？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "一個個講吧！這樣比較容易。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果想過，決定不這樣做就講為什麼，那如果覺得說只是現在還不測，那就這樣講，或者如果還需要帶回去討論，那就直接這樣說。" }, { "speaker": "吳昕", "speech": "向政委及各位先進報告一下，有關於線上申辦的部分，署內經非常審慎地評估，在試辦階段，我們建議以安全性最高為原則，因為實體卡、虛擬卡雙卡併行，原本一個人手上只有一張有效的健保卡會變成有兩張，可能會有人把另外一張卡片借給不具資格的人使用，為避免增加醫事人員核對身分的困擾，所以試辦階段建議採申請人臨櫃申辦同時綁定行動裝置，防止使用者與申請者不同的情況。" }, { "speaker": "吳昕", "speech": "實務上線上申辦在技術層面不是問題，誠如政委剛剛提及目前透過自然人憑證即可線上申辦健保卡等，原則上實體卡現有的申辦途徑，其實虛擬卡應該都可以受理，未來署內對於線上申辦如果在安全考量沒有問題的情況下，我們也會再納入評估。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，第一階段試辦的時候是要控制量、強度，但是不排除在第二階段做？" }, { "speaker": "吳昕", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "我有不同的看法，就是因為試辦才要這樣試，因為透過這樣試，你可以知道可能會發生的問題是什麼；如果試辦的時候，如果採取比較保守的方式在測試時，真正到第二階段，你希望擴大時，你反而要做更多的評估。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "所以，我反而會比較認為試辦的時候，應該是多測幾種不同的方式，看它的可行性及風險，如果認為這個風險在短期內是比較難以排除的，我們就可以在後面建立這一種先不做，所以我認為試辦的重要性在這裡，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我想這個是看試辦一至三階段跑得多快，如果第一階段很短，這樣第二階段很快就來了，如果第一階段要很久，處長的想法馬上就會開始生效，因為會覺得第一階段都花這麼多的力氣了，但是第二階段發現有資安問題或者是什麼問題是沒有足夠快的速度發現它，因此我們月的這個就先table，然後再往下。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這裡有提到臨櫃申請，是在協作會議時有人提出來，所以這個部分是有被寫進來的，但是其實一開始的時候，我記得健保署也說過，在實體卡的時候是可以用郵寄的資料方式過去，我本來不太確定是不是協作會議大家得到的結論，所以健保署不得不這樣做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來先測這個，但是不排除第二階段去測，但是第二階段要多快發生，我們之後再來討論。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "換發流程就跟上面差不多問題，只是就列在這邊，接下來進到「離線醫療使用的情況」，有一個需求是必須到病患家之前要先取得健保資料，因為這樣的需求，所以我們才會在整個流程上設計時是有用到，比如可能先打電話授權，或者是用網路授權，等於是一個預先授權讓醫生可以在出門前先瞭解病患的狀況，帶足夠的東西到病患家裡的設計。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "但是改成藍牙讀卡機的方案會變成做不到，其實這個還有另外一件事要釐清，這一件事到底是不是意思的需求，說不定只是當時協作會議上有想到這一件事，但是這一件事可能是假議題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為看協作會議的逐字稿，醫師有說第一次看到它的時候，有本人要出示卡，但是有比較長的授權，只要關係存續的時候，就可以隨時繼續調他的資料，我記得協作會議是這樣講，我不知道署裡面有沒有這樣討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "那時候有討論到醫生要事先知道病歷，到現場才會知道如何做，這一件事對事前準備來說也是滿重要的一環。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "有另外一種說法是居家醫療的狀況是長時間的病護的關係，只有第一次不瞭解，後面的情況可能都是還清楚的，所以我才會說這個需求是不是真的需要。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先問署裡有沒有討論過這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我說明一下，居家醫療的醫師去看健保資料是不是真的有需求？居家的病人是行動不便才在家裡，有時家屬是可以幫病人代拿藥，當然它並不是非常好的規定，但是這個一直都存在，所以可以取得病人資料的這個部分，當然就是要讓醫生知道病人究竟現在可能手上有多少藥，而這一些藥該不該及如何處理，這部分是現在的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們當然希望醫生在出門之前要確認一下，不一定每個病人都這樣，但是一旦有的話，有可能病人在吃什麼藥而沒有告訴醫生的時候，這也有很多醫糾在後面，所以我們才會希望可以取得，所以這是真正的需求，並不是假需求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。所以這個目前有在規劃裡面提到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這邊提到的是要在「出發前」，重點是「出發前」。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "雲端醫療資訊系統是可以申請批次下載資料，也就是事前取得病人的書面同意之後，於同意書有效期間內，院所均可以在每次居家醫療前先批次下載病人健保就醫資訊參考，至於藍牙讀卡機則是可以當場插卡線上查詢，所以有兩種方案可以處理。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "藍牙是現場就可以連，只要網路通的話，就可以連到我們的雲端系統。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以假設網路是通的，當場就可以做到這個；網路如果不是通的，就沒有太多的方法，就要請病患跑一趟或者是家屬跑一趟。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "要事前才可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣大概有釐清，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "上次有提到「必須要有機制確保醫師有到場看診」，上次有寫到，我猜測是這樣子，有網路的狀況，有三卡認證。我不太懂這個是做什麼事，但是我理解成是一定要有健保卡才可以拿到簽章，接下來是上傳離線簽章，這個時候就可以確保醫生跟病患的健保卡有所接觸，所以間接可以確保醫生有到場看診的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "三卡認證拆成兩段來做。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "「原來三卡認證」的意思，我相信卡是跟著人走，所以在三卡認證的情況下，是當下醫師、病人，另外一張卡是院所的卡，三卡都在的情況之下，我們去做認證跟簽章，我們證明這個行為方式，事後把這個簽章上傳給我，我就不會質疑說這個東西是虛造的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我們就把這個場景搬到居家醫療的事情，這種情況下連線、認證是最好的，比方還可以檢查卡片有效狀態之類的，是不是某些特殊的人物之類的，但是離線比較像軟體的方式去產生簽章，而這個簽章是難以仿照的，不能跟雲端連線去做更細的檢查。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個簽章並不是電子簽章法？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "不是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你需要的只是一個夠準的時鐘？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以就是三卡認證拆成兩段，唯一需要的是兩段可能時鐘要對時，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "接下來是看診後可以開立處方簽。還有在有網路連線時即可上傳看診資料到健保署，因為為了從前面，一開始就拿到就醫序號，然後在現場到病患家的時候，看診完的紀錄就可以用原來的就醫紀錄上傳，可以不用F000的例外編號，我們看現在的流程是可以用另外異常代碼F00B。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是不是沒有在用？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "沒有。我們說一下為何要這樣設計，這樣設計可以避掉什麼問題？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我們目前對於居家醫療的事情有一個代碼是F000，這個代碼的意思是沒有做三卡認證的情況下，所以用F000表示，而這個case到我們署裡面以後，會抽查跟確認，因為沒有刷卡。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "F00B可能是離線，但是又不是完整的離線情況下去創造代碼，我們未來希望減少F000，我們希望在稽查上會碰到一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以新代碼的意思是還是會三卡認證，只是拆成兩段，也就是後一段一有連線就上傳，隨著這個F00B的試辦慢慢擴大，F000有一天就沒有了，意思是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "F000是沒有藍牙的時候就這樣做，那個是例外代碼，如果很多的話，我們感覺上醫生有沒有去都是問號。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "於是以後藍牙的這個替代方案，但是藍牙的替代方案並不是一夕之間都能完全替換，還要維持傳統的，因此F000還是會存在，我們要隨著藍牙的推動，F000會逐步退場，因此要區隔差別，所以有一個F00B。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常清楚，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "在看診的時候，有一個需求是，因為助理人員會先取得健保卡，利用候診的時間準備資料，其實一開始NFC加藍牙是查老師提出來的解決方案，那時想到的是因為如果是用純NFC的話，手機就必須要一直放在NFC的感應器上，這對病人來講可能會是比較困擾的事情，因此他們才想說用NFC做到藍牙配對後，再用藍牙去傳輸的這方面考量，在流程上是不是有做什麼改進，所以手機可以不用一直放上去或怎麼樣的講法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為剛才簡報有兩種解讀方法，一種是一開始讀取時感應一次，第二個是最後寫回的時候再感應一次，這個是一種解讀方法；另外一種是讀取的時候只有一次，當作QR code用，寫回的時候全部走雲端。我不知道你們討論的時候，因為中間第二格有兩種解讀，看你們有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "應該是說，如果走NFC方案的話，可能會像目前的過卡流程，目前現階段在院所流程中會打寫卡的地方是會發生的點，有一點像目前的做法，所以手機是不是放在NFC也不一定，如果大家用Apple Pay感應一下就可以了，看你的當時交易資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "寫回還要再感應一次。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "是資料院所的資料要寫回實體卡，像醫院端是最後批假端再寫回，就像現在規定你可能去拿藥的時候，要出示實體卡，我們要求寫回實體卡的狀況，是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "QR code或者是條碼的方式，這個地方可能對醫療院所變動比較大的原因，其實QR code的概念是識別他是誰，醫院端知道這個人是誰以後，就會串聯診間的系統，從頭到尾知道是誰就好了，那個階段已經沒有要求是要寫回手機這一件事了，當然不是寫回手機這一件事就技術上是不可能的，而是寫回沒有辦法一個動作完成，會有第二個動作。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請求一下，第二個動作可能大概像什麼樣？你剛剛講用QR code並不是一次就完成，後面後續還會有動作，大概看起來像什麼？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "QR code會設計對雲端讀寫，等於手機上沒有資料，如果對持手機的人來講，我要知道當次或者是過去的就醫紀錄也好，手機打開回雲端，這是一個方法，要拉回到手機上的技術端也可以做，這是第二個動作會出現，就不會當下直接對手機做IO，手機就是最新的資料。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第二個動作是無感的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "對，是可以做無感的。但是你沒有做的時候，手機也沒有資料，像如果這個動作你沒有做的時候，手機沒有資料，比如你根本不知道這一件事，或是手機當下是離線的，那也沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，如果我們現在要讓使用者知道他正在被寫回的這一件事，就要把手機再拿出來一次，但是如果不要讓他有這個意識，我們就是全部都在雲端處理，其實NFC也可以這樣子，意思是這樣，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這樣子聽起來，意思是他們因為假設院所端絕對不會斷線，院所端連得到雲端，所以就沒有區域網路的那一些問題，因為基本上都是在做，聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這個前提是同步的速度非常快。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從使用者的角度來看？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "否則，要等二十四小時之後，手機上才會冒出就醫的紀錄？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是剛才聽到的是二十四小時似乎沒有任何的規定是要24小時，然後有加速的可能性，我聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個其實沒有完全解決需求，但是我們示範的時候可以挑網路很快的區域。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這個東西會被提出來，因為以前實體卡是這邊插完，那邊再插下一個地方，但是如果走token加QR code加另外一個路徑，這邊看完到下一個地方，那是沒有資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "連到雲端就有資料了，你現在假設院所A、B都有寬頻，而且不會斷，這個解法的假設是這樣，然後使用者想要查資料，就偶爾要有4G。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "現在大家是二十四小時上傳，所以現在在A、等一下到B，要上雲端是沒有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要把A、B的同步蒐集。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "那個也是考驗provider的網路，所以目前雖然二十四小時也可以加速，但是不見得大家都那麼容易，因為量真的太大。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這邊是看完之後有寫回健保卡的機制，目前大部分是虛擬卡看要寫回手機或者是雲端資料庫，但是實體卡跟虛擬卡的資料庫是有討論到的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來實體卡不同步。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "在沒有接觸到實體卡之前，是不可能寫到裡面，但是有接觸到的那一個瞬間有什麼樣的機制，可以確保哪一個資料是新的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來的意思是相信雲端，比實體行，如果兩卡併用的時候。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "用實體卡就可以寫。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我們現在沒有實體卡寫回資料的做法，我們現在除了當下就診直接寫入實體卡之外，並沒有事後回寫。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "就是當下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有補登的概念？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "所以第二題誰要回答？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二題聽起來實體卡不同步，放棄同步，如果正在用虛擬卡，雲端就是新的，如果用的實體卡，實體卡最好也趕快寫回雲端，對吧！聽起來是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "許展銘", "speech": "現在應該還是有回寫機制，也有補登。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有補登嗎？" }, { "speaker": "許展銘", "speech": "有補登，因為新生兒那邊還是有補登。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "補登部分不含就醫紀錄，只有補一些註記。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以只有註記補登？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "醫療紀錄沒有寫回。" }, { "speaker": "許展銘", "speech": "現在討論都是醫療紀錄而已？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "現在講的都是醫療紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "所以註記不在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "註記可能沒有辦法在這裡處理。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "滿難的。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "院所還沒有備好虛擬卡的流程，像NFC的讀卡機還沒有買或者是虛擬卡還沒有買，所以其實做法是會變成進入醫院的所有流程之前，要把虛擬卡實體化，變成暫時的IC卡，做完之後這個東西再還給院端的想法。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我覺得會有誤解是，因為這邊講到院所的服務流程需要改變，但是其實它最不需要改變院所服務流程的想法，想在這邊跟大家討論一下這個東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過這邊感覺是院所要有一個自助式、感應式取卡機，那個也是一個服務流程，但是你們評估過覺得這個服務流程，即使技術成熟，也是額外的負擔，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "對，從provider的觀點又多一台販賣機，可能還不只一台，有些醫院可能很多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實有點像抽號碼牌的機器，只是你抽的並不是熱感應紙，而是健保卡而已；這個你們已經詳細討論過，就是覺得感應虛擬卡、抽號碼卡的這一件事，是很麻煩的？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "就是儘量讓院所端不要太多loading或者是額外的工作，因為這一些東西可能會造成很大的阻力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，我同意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這邊特別註明所謂的服務流程，意思是那個抽卡機的服務流程，並不是現有HIS系統的流程，因為HIS的沒有差。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "對。在上一場協作會議時，有一群技術人員提出可以離線操作的三卡認證流程，這個部分有討論到嗎？我看到的是第8頁，我以為離線卡片簽章的意思是有公開金鑰的成分在裡面，還是就沒有？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "這只能浩淳回答。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我想我們還是著重於服務上如何搭配，公開金鑰的這一件事，因為我們已經很明確不做憑證，其實我們做公開金鑰到什麼程度，其實這個地方我們也沒有具體的想法，我們是在能夠兼顧資安的情況下，能夠往我們的目標達成就可以了，所以我們是做公開金鑰，我們又不做CA，這個應該可以再討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講是這個離線卡片簽章，你們並不排斥，好比像用別人的CA，然後別人的CA，因為他一定還要連原子鐘的什麼東西去簽這件事有發生，只是健保署自己不維護一套CA去做一件事，聽起來是這個意思，健保卡的意思是做他本來做的事情，也就是身分認證，這樣其實是最古老的一代卡，理論上也可以走這個流程，因為不用改程式了，聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "其實虛擬卡，也就是金鑰都可以設計，因為是軟體概念，不需要受限於一代實體卡所講的不容易改善的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒錯，還有速度，我們剛剛一直沒有提到，但是居家這邊大家討論的其中一個是，因為只有醫生一個人，所以一次要看五個人、六個人的時候，本來在院所過卡速度不是問題的，到這個情境下會等比較久，去領卡是沒有那麼久，但是聽起來你們在居家這邊先不測虛擬卡，所以第一階段也沒有測到，對不對？我們這邊講到的離線都還是實體卡。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "剛剛有講到第一個授權的部分，因為其實在前兩場協作會議，第一場很多人提出關於授權的想法，第二場的時候也有針對授權去作討論。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "其實這邊想要問大家的是，授權只是一個解法，真正要解決的問題是像後面這一個，也就是小孩實體健保卡其實不在家長或者是老師身上要看病的情況，類似這一種情況有什麼新的解法，除了授權之外的這一種想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有押金。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我們知道最後的解法是押金。因為這邊看起來未來是完全不會有授權的機會，並不是因為它複雜，所以延後做，而是就不做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "看起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以署裡面的回應是，這種情況就付押金嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我想授權這一件事有一些法律的問題在那裡面，會讓整個技術上要往前走，會有很多的問題存在，我們在想說是不是好的方法先走，至於授權問題，會隨著走的過程中再來思考，因為確實太多情境，那個情況很複雜，也不曉得要給誰授權，如果說臨櫃的話，有人要求這五個人綁在這裡，到底可不可以，這個問題很難一起釐清。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "這個是很複雜的事，但是會因為複雜而讓虛擬卡走得很慢的時候，是不是我們要的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一開始第一階段不測這個，大家沒有意見，但是寫的文字是不往這個方向想？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只是說確定這個是真實的意思，因為如果是的話要確認。現在不是我們在問，而是協作會議當初提出需求的人問。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "先不考慮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "健保卡上希望可以放的東西，上次是有一個尚待釐清，但是現在是講到不管放什麼東西，實體卡跟虛擬卡都是放一樣的東西，但是到底要放什麼東西？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "就跟現在實體卡的東西一樣，儘量一樣。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "最一開始的時候有提到一件事，也就是實體卡容量不足的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "虛擬卡就沒有這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "擴展到80k就沒有問題，欄位不變、實體卡跟虛擬卡一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前聽起來實體有什麼、虛擬有什麼，實體如果哪一些可以讀，虛擬就那個部分讀，不會因為虛擬卡的改變，唯一的改變是刷的時候辦比較快，所以刷新的時候就會比較快，像我還沒有照片的話，我辦虛擬卡就非得要有照片。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "像大人一定要有照片。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我就沒有。所以我看病的時候，要出示第二證件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此我辦虛擬卡，不可能不提出照片？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "接著是用照片的方式，就把之前的需求確認完。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使是NFC，照片感應的時候也會show出來，這個擴增到網路認證，像報稅的時候，好像就不是這樣，對不對？必須是另外一個流程，難道我用我的手機開虛擬健保卡，我用我的平板去掃我的手機嗎？這個概念是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我提一個想法，我記得是跟查老師開的會議，我們有討論到虛擬健保卡之所以可以拿來做身分認證是以後有一個APP是線上報稅，在認證的時候就可以說用健保卡認證，就會跳出另外一個APP，然後再跳回去身分認證就做完了，我不確定是不是講這個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我報稅不一定想要在手機或者是電腦上報。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "在電腦上報就不能用虛擬健保卡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不能外接嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "可以外接NFC感應器放進去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "總之並沒有特別討論這個，而是說未來有這個討論的可能性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還是你們有很明確說報稅怎麼解決？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "如果未來手機上有虛擬卡的話，某種程度就會像現在一樣的健保卡，比方提供類似API的方式，就讓手機的其他應用去讀這個東西，某種程度就讓手機應用完成身分認證去做其他的事，我覺得這個在技術上是有可能的，只是要不要在第一階段就做到這個程度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是有此可能，但是不一定要測這個，聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "它並不是主要的，我們還是在醫療用途上做。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "測也不是他測，網路報稅也要改，健保卡核發目的並不是身分認證用，而是網路報稅願意用健保卡來做身分認證，所以現在必須是財政部那邊看虛擬健保卡機制的發展，財政部去評估虛擬健保卡機制確實可行，然後再來改報稅軟體。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "協作會議一定會被問到，像態度上，比如五個綁在同一個手機，如果被問到，這邊就會說目前沒有這個打算，如果有人問說拿來報稅，然後就會說可以，不過下次再測，我現在只是把這一些基調釐清而已，並不是馬上要做。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非對稱加密那一段，健保署的意思是什麼？我剛剛沒有聽懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除了CA不是健保署自己維護之外，其他都不反對用類似這樣的方法來做虛擬卡的非對承公開金鑰加購。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "就是除了不自建CA之外。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "不見得是虛擬卡而已，其實在離線的居家照護上，其實完全沒有虛擬卡的因子，所以如果這邊的簽章是公開金鑰的簽章，你也得綁。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你得去某個CA，至少建立你的身分跟這一張健保卡的關係，雖然私鑰不一定要存在健保卡裡。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "今天聽了，我覺得滿好的，如果要測試，我覺得各種情況去測，但是我只是在想在協作會議的時候，如果這個簡報是要在協作會議上講，其實是很複雜的，有很多其實是技術去處理的，那其實是技術人員要去處理掉，我覺得應該要談的是，我們現在要的流程是怎麼樣，應該是讓我們的技術來配合民眾，而不是讓民眾來配合我們的技術。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "今天的簡報給我一個感覺是民眾配合技術，讓醫生來配合技術，讓居家照護來配合技術，如果我今天參與討論，我比較希望看到的是，居家照護的規定是什麼，帶有法規，而不能變，我們如何讓這一件事很簡單，並不是這一件事法規化，然後把它變成很複雜，這個是我的看法。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "會這樣的感覺是因為以前我們都這樣做，所以很多服務都推不出去，因為很複雜，就會多了很多的loading出來，所以我比較建議的是，如果署跟政委都同意的話，我比較建議的是按幾個流程，像居家照護的流程，好比從開始看病到最後拿到藥，這中間包含醫療紀錄的保存，他的流程怎麼樣，然後有一個截斷點是在法規的規定，然後到醫療院所去的流程是什麼，這樣重新考量，然後把技術面處理一下，這樣會很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "同樣也是虛擬卡的概念，其實從簡報的概念是把實體卡影像化，就如同為何一定要有照片，既然也是虛擬卡，為何是要有照片？因為以現在的手機來講，其實生物特徵的辨識非常快，你有照片不表示是你，但是有生物辨識就是你這個人，我不確定為何要有照片？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為你的手機認得你，但院所不認得你的手機？" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "就像以前信用卡也有照片的信用卡，後來沒有了，現在是用生物特徵去刷，並不是用照片去辨識。我是一直認為說，我們想像一下幾年後的生活，也許照片不會是必要的事，像你現在也看得到，現在很多手機是可以把你照美美的，但是跟本人不一樣，所以照片沒有特別的意義。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "我覺得署裡面把簡報弄得滿好的，真的，我覺得滿好的，我現在的想法是，我覺得既然要試就試未來的五年會是什麼的想法，我比較是這樣（想法）。我相信願意來參加協作會議的，也願意看到未來是什麼，而不是現在的東西要變成是什麼樣，這個是我的看法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "具體來講可以免掉照片換成什麼？" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "因為生物特徵原則上會有計算的方式，倒不一定要限制是哪一個，而是根據這個裝置本身可以用，我認為是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "像Apple的NFC，我覺得那個相對上好解決，流程的部分我認為是scenario方式來看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以第一個是蘋果的NFC申請，我們要不要就先遞出去再說？至少未來多一個選項。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那第二個是，現在show照片是以目前的狀態，但是有沒有可能考慮未來就不show照片，但是你要求手機有生物特徵的辨識功能，如果用老的手機，根本沒有生物辨識能力，你還是有照片，因為有總比沒有好？" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "如果老的手機沒有生物辨識，我相信也不太好用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，等於我們要求要有生物辨識特徵的手機，才能加入這部份測試，所以這個是您的具體建議？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "先不論生物特徵會不會有違憲的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果只存在自己的手機硬體裡，當然沒有這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "那時還有討論到用照片來辨識，你跟這個人可能他照得很漂亮，但是還是可以拍一下，但是你如果完全是用手機指紋的話，我隨便舉一個很奇怪的例子，我手機裡面有我女朋友的指紋，我女朋友的手機裡面有我的指紋。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，這也是很有道理，因為一個手機可以有十個指紋，確實是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "對，所以並不是百分之百，除非把指紋存在健保署，但是這樣就違憲了，這樣討論完之後，大家就想破頭，只有用照片。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以「照片」是一一對應的意思。你不會沒事穿你女朋友的面具。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "當然也有雙胞胎。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "也可能是夫妻臉。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "提醒一下，我們3分鐘之內要解決這個議題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少第一階段測試是用照片測，但是署長講的那個方向值得考慮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個也就跟協作會議流程是一致的，我們協作會議的時候，這個簡報看是不是變成事前參考或者是公開出來給連結就好，但是協作會議提示給民眾的時候，根本不要用這一種方式來講，很可能是用剛剛所講的特定案例，也許兩、三個案例，看是事前比如演一齣戲，回到第5分或者是第6分看，或者是用分鏡或者是漫畫的方式，也就是user story。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "關於第三次協作會議，我們要定調幾件事：" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第一，討論的主題；第二，這個會議的定位及目標；第三，邀請的人；第四，時間。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第一個：討論的主題，是不是確定這樣聽下來就是三個方案，居家方案，以及一般就診的NFC跟QR code方案，是不是以這三個目前署內的方案為我們討論主要的主題，這個先確定。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "至於細節包含像身分辨識，除了照片外，像生物特徵，申請上到底臨櫃以外也沒有要開放，這個再拉回署內自己再討論，至少主題確定就是這三個方案。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第二個：會議的目標及定位，這個會連動到我們要邀請的人是誰，我想到的是今天的內容依照剛剛大家建議的流程方式，也就是端出來蒐集意見，這個是一種；另外一種是方案蒐集以外，有哪一些是我們主動想要拋出來，像流程或等等額外需要再讓大家討論的？「端出方案蒐集意見」跟「額外拿出議題跟大家討論」還是不太一樣，蒐集意見是一定要有，有沒有額外是需要起一個議題讓大家討論的？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "以上，就連動到第三個：邀請誰？之前的說法是第三次的時候再把第一次協作會議的與會者找來，幫大家回憶一下，第一次主要找的是使用者，是民眾端的使用者跟一般院所端的使用者，跟大家確認是否維持邀請這些人？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "另外也提醒一下，我們第一次是找使用者，第二次是找相對專業的人，其實第二次找來之後，最後推出的方案，跟目前署內的方案相比，有一些轉折，包括協作會議後政委幫忙收斂、也提出建議，署內又再做研議後提出新方案......有一些脈絡及轉折等等，是否因使有必要再把第二場的專業人員拉到第三次會議來討論？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "最後第四個，就是會議時間的確認。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "先聽署內及政委的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先講人的部分，人的部分比較關鍵，我不知道署內的想法，我不知道讓大家體驗或者是觀賞這三個流程，使用者當然是；但是第二次會議的那一些專家們，你們覺得怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我覺得都可以，沒有太大的意見，這個只是提案，再聽聽大家的意見，沒有什麼不好，所以覺得技術人員裡面再挑幾個比較有代表性的來，我們也歡迎。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果邀請的人是擴大討論，那你的範圍就自動擴大了，因為那些人來絕對不會按照你的那個大綱去給意見，他們一定是各種意見都會給。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "專業會有專業的堅持，所以我認為你找第二階段技術的人，可能稍微篩選一下比較好，不要太強調技術。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者反過來講，他們來是以協助者的身分，就是如果使用者在預演或者是觀賞或者是自己試做的時候，有一些不明白的地方，這一些人可以提供適時的資訊，但是並不是這一些人馬上跟使用者說教一樣的互動，這一些人既然來了，我們最後還是可以留一段時間，讓他們從專業的角度再提出看法，這樣可能跟前面的適用是分開的，因為如果不分開的話，到最後使用者都沒有講話的時間。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "大概理解。反正邀請名單的部分還會有一些準備會議，這個就拉到working level的會議再細談。現在離2點還有一點時間，有沒有任何其他需要討論的事項？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我只有一個建議，因為當時是使用者都有邀，如果有模擬的部分，也不一定大家都要有，大家可以看漫畫就好，如果有模擬的話，大家扮演自己，藥師就是藥師，院所就是院所，你就拿手機或者是NFC感應器，等於讓他跑一遍，剛剛聽起來這個流程十五分鐘之內一定跑得完，這樣第一手經驗可能比較有具體的東西回應，如果道具準備來不及，那就算了，大家看漫畫就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我主要想說的是，不要強求使用者扮演不是他原本的角色。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "可以現場模擬嗎？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "要演戲嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "用空機或者是固定畫面，有一張截圖，上面有一個QR code？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "那不是實際的啊！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是實際，就是用演的，綠野仙蹤法。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "其實可以先拍。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。但是流程如果比較短的話，理論上如果有模擬，比較可以引發大家真正有意義的討論。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "模擬的方法署內可以再決定。再來想確認時間，其實原先的時間是10月31日開會，後來署內有其他配合院長官的會議，所以那個時間取必須消掉了，今天是不是可以定出一個舉辦第三次協作會議的時間區間，對署內是ok、政委也覺得時間是可以接受的時間。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "另外也確認一下大家的想法，會議時間是否需考量選舉，我們的會議有特別希望辦在選舉前或後嗎？想請各位長官也討論一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個跟選舉關係不大，如果要選後，也就是11月底了，對不對？也就是12月初，我自己覺得這個跟選舉的關係不大了，所以我覺得還是以你們覺得舒服的時間，像剛剛聽起來如果是要11月中。" }, { "speaker": "李健誠", "speech": "11月12日跟26日。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "26日我可以。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "剛好是禮拜一。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我覺得是選後。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "12月2日、3日也可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是因為畢竟離協作會議前兩週有一段時間了，如果真的離太久的話，可能第一場、第二場不太記得在講什麼了，所以既然11月26日場地可以，是不是就訂11月26日這個時間。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "就11月26日這個時間。署內可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣11月初我覺得不一定需要meeting，主要是working level，跟主持人這邊調整流程到很順，然後邀到的人應該是不會爆炸的就好。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "是不是接下來移到working level討論？先不約下一次兩位長官的時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為下一場就是協作會議了。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "另外，我今天想要確認的事情是，我們之前其實有訂出對外統一的說法，當時院這邊有確認，部內、署內也有確認，但先前有跟署內溝通後，想請問有一件事是不是可以鬆綁一下？「尋求協作會議的共識，按照實際需求解決資安等問題，行政院會支持健保署朝更前瞻或數位的方向去規劃，於明年上半年度開始經營小規模試做」這段話中，署內有提醒，因為經過study研究之後，覺得上半年度有一點硬，在這個時間點上，是不是有空間把明年上半年度擴大一點，改成「明年」開始進行小規模？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以說成11月26日當天就小規模試做了，只是就這五十個人而已（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這太凹了，不能這樣凹啦。" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "試辦講比較實際的，試辦可大可小，我覺得那是容易處理的。而且我覺得很多東西，其實你提出一個想法，開始試著去做的時候，我覺得那就可以試。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且我也很誠實講，因為這裡面真正需要改到設備的，其實比較是醫療院所後面那兩個流程。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "前面的居家流程，如果把三卡認證拆成兩段，那是現成的軟體，基本上沒有什麼要重新規劃的東西。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "浩淳你要不要講一下當時在規劃推動時程的時候，有提到時間上會太趕？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像藍牙讀卡機的部分，根本只是把目前的筆記型電腦換成平板而已，那不應該半年弄不出來。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "居家醫療的部分其實我們本來明年就有規劃，而且大概不會是試辦，那就是要解決現在目前的問題；虛擬卡的部分的確牽扯的範圍會比較大一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是啊！我的意思是，即使你的試辦，好比像你roll out藍牙讀卡機的部分，你拿裡面一小部分來拿測虛擬卡，或者就先測分開離線認證等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "既然明年上半年都要做，就自動符合「試辦」，我們本來就沒有說試辦時，各方案都要一起試辦。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們原來的想法是藍牙方案根本跟這一件事是無關的，那個本來就要做，沒有虛擬卡案我們也會做，而且我們已經有行程表，我們明年上半年一定會直接導入。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "現在講的是虛擬卡的試辦，而不是藍牙，因為藍牙方案沒有虛擬卡的問題，所以我們現在講的是虛擬卡試辦這一件事，我們的資訊部門有評估過，也就是那個時間不是很容易在上半年就可以推出。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "因此對外講如果是虛擬卡試辦的這一件事，我們擔心上半年是不可行的，但是講的是藍牙方案就是要做的，所以看我們現在要講的是不是虛擬卡，是虛擬卡或者是試辦？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "其實講得非常模糊，他連主詞都沒有寫到，而是被問到這個問題是舊式回答「我們將會尋著協作會議的共識，按照實際需求，解決資安等問題，行政院會支持健保署朝更前瞻或數位的改革規劃，於明年上半年度開始進行規劃」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "協作會議有收到居家醫療的需求，你們提出的解法也滿前瞻的啊。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "如果把藍牙放進去也是一部分，我們明年初就會導入。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有分多個階段的測試，其實你們居家的流程也有繼續修改的可能，你說試辦是說得通。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "到明年下半年就run第二階段，也許包含簡處長的想法。無論如何虛擬卡的發卡就可以開始做，並沒有違反這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當時我們這樣寫，空間是很大的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "上半年是藍牙會先上，虛擬卡是下半年才會啟動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是上半年多一些模擬，程式不一定要寫好，但是也許有一些宣導片，或者是有一些分鏡、漫畫或者是劇本，就是讓大家比較瞭解這一件事是什麼，如果要參與試辦的時候，比較知道上了哪一條船，比較像是溝通的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我列到關於下一次協作會議的事大概問到這裡，還有沒有要問政委的事情？" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "你剛剛有提到讓與會者去提，後來這個怎麼做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子聽起來是你邀了專家，到最後就得有一個空間，不管是用問卷或者是白板或者是什麼方式，最後留下想法，而不要干擾使用者的體驗討論而已。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這個是三個方案，下一次協作會議可否讓大家提第四個方案？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家願意加上什麼就說什麼。好比如果他說「加密一定要量子電腦不可攻破」，這就列入後續參考。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "意思就是主題就是討論三個，但如果有人想要提，要讓他們可以提。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來試辦的時候，會參酌大家的各種意見，因為各個方法都可以試辦。如果有人對特定技術非常執著，在這樣的情況之下，下次也可以再請他來討論。這樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "簡宏偉", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "最後一個問題，資安改善的部分，後續有打算怎麼走嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有可能開研究案？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "先確認有需要訂某個時間嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不急著在這兩年。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "這個現在沒有辦法答覆，要想一下。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有關於授權的部分，剛剛有提到授權的部分，儘量有多的方案，授權在協作會議的討論其實是滿大篇幅，當時有把很多不同的考量都列出來，是不是有可能把授權的考量，像剛剛副署長提到滿複雜的問題，前期的規劃是不是可以梳理這一些問題，至少留一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等於以後真的虛擬卡很順、大家用得很方便了，我們又要回來看這一件事，所以至少要留東西下來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當時在想這一段可能會需要更多的公民參與或者是相關的討論程序才可以釐清，看署內是要自己做，或者是之後發包研究，找人當公民論壇。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少署內覺得有疑慮的點都記下來，並不是我們在試辦的時候要做任何的事，但我們把這個當作留下來的文件之一。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家好，我是唐鳳，這個週末禮拜五到禮拜天剛好就是10月5日到7日，就是g0v零時政府這個社群在中研院兩年一度的雙年會，g0v summit的團隊有送來一些哈囉跟扣問，接下來我們就一一來回答。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "參加過哪些g0v專案？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "說「參加過」好像現在沒有在參加，但其實我現在還是很活躍地在參加兩個長期的g0v專案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個叫做「萌典」，「萌典」一開始是教育部重編國語辭典的民間版，教育部Ministry of Education「MOE」，所以就叫「萌」，「萌」也有「萌芽、人民、草木初生」的意思，因為這樣的關係，不只是教育部本來的辭典，後來還有Taigi、Hakka、Pangcah（Amis）等等的各種專案，都從萌典專案長出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也是因為參與萌典專案，認識了許多社群朋友的關係，所以像我們現在在政府裡面，用漫畫的方式來宣導開放政府的理念時，我們就做了各個不同語言的漫畫，包含剛才講的台語、客家話，甚至阿美語都會用漫畫的形式跟大家分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個專案是「vTaiwan」這個專案，「vTaiwan」這個專案目前我的角色大概是偶爾幫忙訂Pizza跟提供場地，每個禮拜三的晚上都在社會創新實驗中心，有小松，就是小型的黑客松，今年有一些相當大的法制上的改革，好比像說《公司法》、平台經濟、金融沙盒，以及接下來的無人載具沙盒等等，這個都是經過「vTaiwan」多方利益關係人社群朋友們集思廣益討論之後，才做出來的決策。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "入閣後對於民間社群力有什麼不一樣的想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我在入閣的時候，就跟大家說得很清楚，我是公僕的公僕，意思就是要幫專業的事務官來找到一些方法跟大家對話，在對話的過程裡面去吸收大家的風險、去節省大家的力氣，而且確保專業事務官的專業能夠被人民所看見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很多的事務官朋友告訴我們說，其實他們也不是不想創新，但是他們在創新的時候，如果沒有一個民間已經有的例子的話，他們在公部門裡面要推創新是比較困難的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管是透過社會創新行動方案、透過總統盃的社會創新黑客松等等，以「社會創新」為名的這樣子一些活動，我們都可以看到民間的社群自己集結出來，告訴政府說可以怎麼樣做事情，然後專業的文官再去投入持續的資源，這樣子協作的方式是顯然對兩邊都比較省力氣，也比較減少風險的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我覺得社群的力量經過這幾年只有更深化、更融入，然後也更強大。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "對於過去兩次g0v summit有什麼樣的回顧？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "2014年跟2016年的時候，我都有擔任g0v summit議程委員的角色，2014年大家可以看到「啥米零時政府」，國內外的研究者、公民團體、公務員這一些朋友們，都很想要知道說透過網路，大規模地開放式的協作，到底怎麼樣讓他們的工作讓更多人知道，也讓更多人的想法能夠進入他們的工作裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在2016年，我們為什麼叫「拆後重建」，就是發現這樣的一些技術、方法、思想產生counterpower，就是把原有所謂由上而下這樣子體制的正當性加以消除，這個是很容易的。但是我們要怎麼樣在對等的情況下重新靠著透明、靠著彼此信任來重建這個正當性？這個是全世界都在想的一個題目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以2016年「重建」的意思，就是把這個信任的想法擴散，然後讓大家想出更多的方式，能夠在彼此之間不互相制約的情況下，重新建立起信任的基礎。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "覺得g0v年會對於臺灣、國際的意義？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得g0v從臺灣開始的一個概念，不要問「為什麼沒有人做這一件事，先承認自己是沒有人」的精神，在國際上面是非常容易擴散的，好比像下個月在義大利就會成立「budget.g0v.it」，就是預算視覺化的義大利版本，或者是我們在美東，不管是DC或者是紐約，或者是我們在加拿大、多倫多等等這一些地方，我們都可以看到許多朋友們已經打著g0v這樣子一個招牌，因為任何人都可以使用，去重新想像人民跟政府之間有什麼樣的新的治理可能性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我覺得我們現在在外交上，所謂「#TaiwanCanHelp」的「暖實力（warm power）」，就是我們面對我們的社會跟環境問題，我們想出一些新的、創新的解決方法，然後我們不一定要透過國對國或者是國際組織的方式，而是可以透過公民團體、運動者之間的網絡去散布到全世界各地。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好比像明年，我就會去衣索比亞Addis Ababa，那邊的朋友們其實也已經在詢問g0v可以怎麼樣去幫助非洲達到更多透明、責信這樣的要求，所以我覺得對臺灣的意義，就是先面對我們自己的治理、社會、環境問題，但是對國外一旦有解決方案之後，就可以用這個去建立長期、穩定的外交關係。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "對於非資訊領域的人，參與g0v的意義是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家不要把這個想成資訊領域、尖端科技的宣導大會，有時剛好相反，並不是引進尖端科技來解決社會問題，反而是社會上所有的朋友一起集思廣益，怎麼樣解決尖端科技帶來的社會問題，這個其實就是我們這次年會的主軸之一。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我們現在看到所謂這一些資訊科技，它的應用也許在維基百科或者是在一些開放源碼的專案裡面，它是非常好用，但是當它用在社會上其他部分的時候，它產生出來的效果，不一定是我們學這一些資訊的人一開始想到的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以怎麼樣繞著這一些新興的科技，我們形成一個新的、可以接受的，大家都覺得這樣子用是好的社會創新方式，其實無形之中，也是在對我們這一些資訊從業人員，要怎麼樣有系統的、有道德的、有倫理的來使用這一些科技，是給我們學習的機會。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "這次你將分享的panel是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次在星期六下午3點半，我會跟幾位朋友一起來討論「推動國家數位轉型」的想像，這裡的「國家」指的不只是我們國家，也包含加拿大專門負責國際上去用數位方式進行合作的Derek，以及在法國長期研究開放政府的一位Clément，還有「社團法人臺灣數位科技與政策協進會」的張培鏞理事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這些朋友們會在我們pm5的帶領之下，一起來討論說，我們怎麼樣去落實聯合國永續發展目標裡面，特別是17.6，就是確保每一個地方的數位創新都可以讓全世界其他地方一起來創造、一起來使用，以及第17.17項怎麼確保在這個過程裡面，公部門、私部門、社會部門可以是對等、平等的合作關係。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "你最期待的議程是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次我最期待的議程就是「當網路原生代走進政治的廚房」這個議程。但是這個議程跟我自己的panel，被我們議程組——這一次我不是委員了——排在完全同一個時間……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我在跟開放政府聯絡人每個月的會議上，在講這一件事的時候，說其實大家不一定要來聽我的panel，可以去隔壁、去「R0」（國際會議廳）聽這個panel。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼這個panel我特別期待呢？因為這包含長期在開放資料上面，協助政府非常多的Ronny、投票指南的長期坑主Johnny、開放政府觀察報告的共同作者阿Fi、在公務員體制內部去組成革新力量聯盟的MH。這些朋友們都是用網路原生世代的做法，在體制裡、體制外去進行串接。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然還有我們非常非常擅長這一件事的Peggy，作為這一次panel的主持人。所以推薦各位去聽他們的panel，不一定要聽我的。謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Can you hear me now?" }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Hi. Can you hear?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. This time I can hear you well." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Yes? Thank you very much. I’m Marta Fernandez. I’m here with Carina Lopes." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Hi." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hi." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "She started the society, a think tank director. I want to excuse Esteban because he had..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m here with Aurora." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Hi, Aurora. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Hi." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Hello..." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "I want you to excuse Esteban because he had to go to another meeting with the Barcelona City Council. Just five minutes ago he got a call from the city council, so he had to run away. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Sorry about that, but we have Carina which is a think tank director, and we will explain you a little bit more about Digital Future Society, the new program launched by Mobile World Capital and the Minister of Economy and Business from the Spanish Government, the Government of Catalonia, the Barcelona City Council, Fira, and GSMA." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Now Carina will explain you a little bit about what is Digital Future Society, which are all challenge and opportunities with this project. The main goal of this call is because we wanted to invite you to be one of the members of the global board of trustees of this project, and also to invite you to join us in the Digital Future Society Summit in November." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "You already told us that you will not be able to attend in person, but maybe we can find a way to maybe...We’ll be very honored maybe to have your presentation there. Let’s start now with the presentation of the project, and then we can..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can always do the telepresence, and we also have our local Taipei Economic and Cultural Office team who can also help with the conversation. You can always talk with real people. It’s just me that maybe attached to another person." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think you can begin the conversation. Just to let you know, we will be on the record, and on the end of the talk we can decide to publish the video as is, or you want to edit the transcript. It’s up to you, so please start." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "OK. Thank you. As you may already seen, we sent you an executive summary of what the Digital Future Society is. This is a new, very ambitious initiative, so we aim to be a global program that connects different actors at global scale." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We’re talking about experts, policymakers, civic entrepreneurs and organizations, and we’ll bring them together to address, understand, and engage with issues around the ethical, legal, and inclusion challenges that the digital transformation and the digital economy are presenting to us these days." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "As part of this initiative, we have three main verticals of action. It’s a project that has been designed to be top-down and bottom-up at the same time." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "One of the verticals is a think tank, so the think tank is about creating new knowledge in different eras that are very aligned with the challenges as perceived by society, so we’ll be touching issues that are very close to the day-to-day of citizens. The work of the think tank will be a lot of institutional work, but we’ll be working really hard to bring that content and that generated knowledge to our streets." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "The second vertical will be like a lab, where we’ll transfer knowledge into solutions that can be prototypes, can be pilots, but the objective is really to bring together best practices based on what other countries are already doing, and now they are tackling the same challenges, but also develop new solutions for problems that are shared among different geographic regions and collectives." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "The third vertical of this initiative is all the activities we’ll do around citizen engagement, and we’ll do these activities in Barcelona but also across all the Spanish territory and Europe, and anywhere we’ll be invited to." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "It’s really about making sure that when we talk about technology and technological development, we’re thinking about what’s the impact, about the challenges and opportunities that this development is bringing to our society, and how us as a collective can address those challenges from an ethical and legal but also inclusion and equitable perspective." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "As we also mentioned very briefly in our executive summary, transversal to all these three verticals, we’ll have a very ambitious objective, which is to design and get together with institution as a global scale to design a new letter of human rights that includes the digital rights." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We truly understand what should be the basic human digital rights, and because we know the impact digital is having in our lives, and we want to have a voice and to have a humane perspective on the technological development." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Regarding the think tank, and how we’ve been thinking and trying to structure what we want to present, simplifying it a lot, you can say that when we talk about technology, we usually have this recent linear narrative around the design of technology, and then it’s put to use, and then lastly, usually try to assess the impact, negative or positive, of the technology." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We want to bring a more circular way, an engaging way, where when a technology is being designed, it’s really designed from the human perspective and addressing already the impact that technology is going to have on society and users, and to have technology not designed as thinking just about consumers, but as about all of us as a society, and also talking about sustainability and so on." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "The four main topics will be very generic topics we’ll be taking about is about inclusion and citizen empowerment, which is related with the relation between citizens and the technological development, and then we have public innovation." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "That’s really about the challenges that the digital brings to policymakers, and how we have to change the dynamic, the speed, but also the relations of engagement to design policy." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Then we have an area about digital trust and security, and we are very concerned how the relations...also relations of power between small organizations and large organizations, and how small organizations can adapt to this new context and how can we empower them." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "These can be civic organizations but also small companies, family companies, and so on, that in Spain are a very large percentage of the organizations we have and companies in the country." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Then lastly, the fourth topic is a more global topic, and it’s about equitable growth. We want to make sure that when we talk about growth, we have an equitable perspective where no one is left behind and that we always have a very inclusive and sustainable in different perspectives approach to development and growth. These are the main topics." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We’ll engage with these topics with the support of a group of institutions from different parts of the globe within the think tank, and this content will always be transformed to arrive to the day-to-day of citizens." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Because sometimes, some of the challenges we took around digital, they are translated in a very different way when they get to the day-to-day of a citizen, and sometimes we have to build this bridge. The challenges that policymakers face and the citizen faces with the digital are different, but they are connected and we have to create these bridges and parts of communication." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "This is a very brief description of what we are doing. I don’t know if you have specific questions regarding the perspective, the approach, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I’ve read the executive summary, and it is very well written. I think this idea of doing technology not for the people but with the people is very well aligned with our philosophy, as well. I understand that GSMA is one patron or a sponsor to this activity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I understand, they also have many other activities such as around sustainable development goals, such as in the EU, there’s the Horizon projects, D-CENT and DECODE, and others focusing on, roughly speaking, the same goals. What are your relationship with the EU and UN level organizations working on, roughly speaking, similar things?" }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "For example, with GSMA we have a very close relationship. We work with them on different projects, so they’ll be part of our global board of trustees, but also they’ll be part of the think tank, because they have units that are dedicated just to recession policymaking, so we’ll be working closely with them." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We are very committed on assuring that the tech sector really thinks about development goals, and we work together in a proactive way towards these goals. Regarding the European Commission, we have very close relationship with the city council. The city council of Barcelona participates in projects like DECODE through Francesca Bria and their team, and work very close with them every day. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We have projects on, for example, women and technology that are aligned with some of the projects that they are doing at European level. We also participate in a lot of European projects, and we are in close conversations with the Commission to present the project, and so hopefully we’ll get their support. We have invited..." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Yeah, the Commissioners Gabriel Mariya and Carlos Moedas. We have invited them also to be part of the global board of trustees, and they are willing to be part of the work, so..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. Not only the values are aligned, but you’re already working in a day-to-day operation level with these people. That is very good to hear." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have another clarifying question. As part of this board of trustees, suppose that I agree, what are my duties? Are there yearly or monthly obligations, and can I fulfill those obligations through telecommunication only?" }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "For us, the global board of trustees is we want them to support, to advise, and there is no timing, no obligations. It’s very flexible. For example, we would like them to participate in all summits, but they can come, for example in one in a year, or if they can’t come, a representative of them can come, or maybe they can just be online in a video conference, so there’s no..." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "We understand that these members they have a very [laughs] busy agenda, so what we want for them is the expertise, they are by, they support, for example, with the think tank, and with the principles with the thematics, if we are going not in the good path or if we are in the good line. It’s more of this advice point of view than no obligation of writing or sending reports or..." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "It’s only the advice and support and your expertise on this thematics." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is the society itself just a name of a project? There’s another team that I participate called Global Council on Extended Intelligence or Global CXI, which is Joi Ito and IEEE and a bunch of friends, but there’s no formal institution for it. It’s just a bunch of people working on policy documents and suggestions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Are you institutionalized within a nonprofit or a foundation in some way, or is it really just a project name for a few pillars to share the branding, if you know what I’m talking about?" }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "You mean the program of the Digital Future Society? It’s a program that we’re part of our foundation, the Mobile World Capital Foundation, which is a public foundation in Spain. We have these three levels of government, which is a very unusual structure for our country." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "That will be an initiative led by our foundation. That will be a global initiative, so it’s really about bringing different institutions together and creating space. We have a privileged position within the telecommunication sector, because we have the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We have very close relationship with the different stakeholders and with GSMA, and we want to start within that space that we already have, and really create a space for reflection and also to position Spain and the Spanish-speaking countries to create this space of debate to really thing about digital, but always in relation with Europe and other geographic regions of the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So it’s mostly, I would say — because you are a foundation — a social sector institution that’s supporting this endeavor, and there’s no corresponding office within the Catalonian Government or the Barcelonian City Council? They’re more like participants to your program. Is that the idea?" }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Exactly. The three levels of government we have, they are in our board of trustees as a foundation, and they meet every quarter, and we do a presentation of activities, and they give us support, but there is no physical." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We have the physical office of the foundation, but we won’t have a physical space, institutionalized space for the Digital Future Society. We are a more heterogeneous program that will be led by the foundation but in collaboration with a lot of other institutions and support from the city council, regional government, and central government." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "The board of trustees of the foundation, of the Mobile World Capital Foundation, the city council, the government of Catalonia and the ministers of Spain, they will be also part of the global when all the representative of each one will be part of the global board of the trustees of the Digital Future Society, as well." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "That’s the connection with the board of trustees of the foundation. For us, the foundation is very important." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Because this is the way that the minister of Spain, Catalonia Government, and the Barcelona City Council they told each other, \"You know, through our foundation it’s more important because Digital Future Society also wants to do a new legis-, helps to a new legislation to become in this digital area, and that’s the way that we can connect all of them, no? All the policymakers.\"" }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. One final question. Say that if I want to send a delegate from Taipei to the congress, for example, and I will attach myself to them, [laughs] what degree of travel and/or accommodation can this project support, or are we supporting our own budget for traveling?" }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "We will support all these expenses, yes. That’s all supported." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "We’ll support the traveling, accommodation, and most of the..." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Any fees that you have when you are here. For example, if you come to Mobile World Congress, because in Mobile World Congress, we will also do a summit of Digital Future Society. We still don’t know which day, but once we have all the information, if you are member of Mobile World Global board of trustees, you will receive an invitation and we will support all the expenses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great, because I may not be able to physically come because it is... For example, if it’s during the parliamentary inquiry session, I will have to remain in Taiwan, but I’m always able to find someone who can be herself or himself a very knowledgeable expert, also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, we had a conversation around social impact investment in South Korea, and our delegation is my predecessor, an ex-minister for social innovation and social enterprise, and she attended on my behalf, but from the civil society, she’s from academia anyway, but I appear through a mountable iPad so that I can still be part of the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If this arrangement is OK to you, then I will let my civil society and academic people know that if they act as my avatar or whatever, [laughs] you will still be able to support accommodation and traveling costs." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Exactly. That’s no problem." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "It’s already allocated within our budget, this type of costs, and we know that sometimes organizations and people have to send a representative because of the agendas and other public obligations, and so on, and commitments, so that will not be a problem at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that case, I would say that I’m willing, but because of our law here, I will have to check with our HR department, the secretary general." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to verify first that you’re a nonprofit [laughs] that we know about, and that the work that you’re doing aligns with our national interest, so they would do some due diligence and may send you some emails, but I’m quite willing to join this endeavor." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Thank you very much, Audrey. If you need any other information, further information or any other presentation you only have to ask, and we can send it to you. If you want to ask any other question from the government, we can arrange another call, OK?" }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. That’s great. That’s all I need. Are you OK with us just publishing this video, because it will help." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because any other government official I’ll just point at the YouTube to them, and they will understand..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...the context of all we will talk about." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "We understand and we support that. I think it’s a very good idea for this kind of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Thank you for your time and let’s continue this conversation." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Thanks very much, Audrey..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "...for your time." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Marta Fernandez", "speech": "Bye." }, { "speaker": "Carina Lopes", "speech": "Bye-bye." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Hello. My name is Clément Mabi." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hi. Very nice to meet you." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Nice to meet you, too. I’m a French academic researcher..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And we’re going on a g0v summit together on Saturday." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yeah, of course. I come today to introduce myself and to say hello. I’m very pleased to be here, and I want to ask you a few question about how it works here, because my main research subject is about how public actors are working in a open government way and especially for the French case." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I would like to share with you some feelings about what I read about Taiwan on some discussions I had since I’ve been here. I heard you interested a lot about...You are very inspired by the Internet governance, like IETF. What is exactly for you a multi stakeholder governance?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, radical transparency. We are on the record, and we will be editing for 10 days before publishing online, and this is exactly how IETF established its legitimacy, because as we know, IETF and the Internet society in general is the largest and most legitimate, I would say, known multilateral organization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every other multi stakeholder organization either centers around one specific project, or it is actually a extension of multilateral system that is just doing multi stakeholder constituency consultation. IETF by itself has legitimacy in the Internet society so much so that it can negotiate with ITU, with the US Government, with various other governments, and the reason why it can do so I think is threefold." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One is that of course it’s based on radical transparency and accountability so that everybody can see how it reaches its conclusions by rough consensus, it’s the first one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that because the Internet itself is too important for every other actor, so the price of actually not connecting to the open Internet outweigh the risk of boycotting or not working with the Internet governance module so that there is a real incentive for everybody to play with the Internet protocol rules, instead of by their own domestic protocol or whatever. The second is really economic incentive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the third one, which is often overlooked is that it is by itself a inspiration or a call to a governance model that is not ruled by so called domination." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is to say, at its core, when we see requests for comments or IFCs, the very waiting itself or the Tao of the IETF, the document itself, it promotes this idea of non domination. I think this is a very odd hope by most people that’s people can reach something that they can all live with without one party dominating the other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, recently, due to mutual distributed ledgers and other technologies, this kind of idea has gained some more currency. Cryptocurrency, but [laughs] since the very beginning, IETF has heralded this radical idea, almost an anarchistic way of thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, it doesn’t always implement that. Many working groups doesn’t completely work like that, but it has this what Immanuel Kant calls this regulative idea that people are nevertheless attracted to. There is the legitimate mechanism, there is the real economic incentive, and there is also a philosophical attraction." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "You talk about rough consensus?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "What do you mean exactly?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A rough consensus basically is something that people can live with that people don’t feel very strongly to object. On the other hand, it’s not a fine consensus in the sense that it is a document 50 pages long, everybody sign on it, everybody will say that this is our position." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not a common position statement or paper. This is just a general picture of how we’re going forward as a society, but without ruling out the possibility of everybody going in two different directions. It’s just we make sure that these directions doesn’t cancel each other out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This maybe sometimes is called a group consent. There’s many different names for that, but in the Internet governance, we call it rough consensus." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "For you, it’s very different from deliberation. Rough consensus is different from deliberation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deliberation is a activity. Deliberation can result in rough consensus, but you can also start a deliberation with a goal of a very fine consensus or you can start a deliberation with a goal just sharing feelings and sharing the facts without reaching any kind of consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every deliberation has its own framing and the framing may or may not contain rough consensus." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In current life, for example, regulation of Uber, how can you make a rough consensus? Because you can see some cities, they are very different from each other. How do you make a rough consensus for some subjects when you have to make a choice?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the idea very simply put is that we establish common values instead of common decisions. By values, for example, what we mean is that we get people’s feelings about how they feel about one particular fact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, in 2015, UberX uses people without professional license to drive passengers and charging them for it. This statement is a fact, because it’s happening, and around this fact people can have very different feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around these feelings, there are nevertheless feelings that are common to people, that resonate with people, that people hear other people’s feelings and think, \"Oh, I feel the same way.\" Also, there are feelings that are polarizing in a sense that when you hear that, you would think, \"Oh, that’s, you know, not my kind of people,\" right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the right design of interaction and space, you can make sure that people agree to disagree on certain statements, but focus much more of their energy on the resonating statements that reflects a common feeling. What I’m saying is not that this stage by itself makes a decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Rather this stage informs the ideation phase, because then we know the good ideas are the one that take cue of these feelings, and then those ideas inform decisions. What we are saying in this kind of conversation is just on the facts and the feelings stage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the idea and decision stage, that’s a separate matter altogether, and in design thinking methodology the first diamond is what we’re talking about. The second diamond is something else altogether." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Design thinking, but in this kind of methodology information is very important, so the frame of information is important, too. How do you build this frame to be sure that every stakeholder got the same information?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, and also it means the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "How can you say in concrete that every stakeholder got them the same power to interact?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. It is impossible to do this perfectly, but what we have done so far is making sure that there is sufficient amount of reliable data before we start a discussion like this. We do this by not only open government data, but also open data from the civil society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One very interesting thing about Taiwan is that the citizens sites is at times even more active than the government based sites. For air quality or for many other areas, we have the citizen contributed data, even more legitimate than the government data in some cases, because people participate in it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Given this social atmosphere, when we talk about common evidence or data, we’re not just talking about the government translating our data to what the stakeholders can understand and can agree with, but rather the stakeholders providing their own data in a kind of puzzle making way to make sure that, first, everybody knows everybody else is publishing this data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second, through a series of pre meetings we agree on a neutral frame. For example, the very fact that I talk about people without professional driver’s license taking passengers and charging them for it, it took us three months to arrive to this sentence, because this frame is agreed by Uber, by taxi unions, by all the different ministries as something that they can feel that it doesn’t presuppose a decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is both by a data that is collaborative and also by a framing device that is done by multi stakeholder meetings as very large amount of pre meetings, weekly, on the vTaiwan meetings before even starting to make it public." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In the different stakeholders you have some institutions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Some experts?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, and orientate decisions, passengers." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yeah, you put some passengers in decisions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "How are they chosen?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They choose themselves. It’s just like IETF. If you feel you’re a stakeholder, you send a email to a special interest group, and then you become a stakeholder." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "How do you take the concern of representativity? In France, when we make some public consultations, we have a very important issue about who you are representing. People used to say that it’s not enough to speak about the opposition. How do you take this question of representativity of citizens?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, we ask a few profiling questions. Because our online questionnaire, even the question itself is crowd sourced. People just reflect on each other’s feelings. If you, for example, want to know, \"Did you work for Uber or not?\" you just propose that as a question for other people to answer. This is a collective profile. This is not a government oriented profile. That’s a different thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that, for example, when we did Airbnb, they sent an email to all their members to go to this platform [laughs] and support the Airbnb position. There’s mobilization, but because this space encourages people to reason out each other’s feelings instead of a few yes or no questions, only one third of them actually supported the Airbnb position." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other two third have more nuanced, more interesting ideas for other to share. I don’t think representation here means what you just described what it means. If all these people say, \"OK, I represent a Airbnb member, and Airbnb calls me here to express my opinion,\" that works, for example, if it’s a binary choice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, because they are all individuals and they’re given the freedom to propose their own feelings, I think this re presentation of their own feelings is even more important than whether they are mobilized by Airbnb or not. They’re, after all, individuals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree that this legitimacy only works because, just like repress for comments, everything is just recommendations. If you see a few Internet RFCs, even though they’re on the standards track, if you don’t implement it, if you see \"must\" and don’t implement, you see \"must not\" and implement it, there’s no enforcement [laughs] agency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no Internet police that will make sure you implement this way. The only punishment is that your browser will not be able to see other websites. Because of this, it is not purely binding in a decisional way. It is only a resonating rough consensus way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because we restrict ourself into the first diamond, representation doesn’t matter that much. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter at all. I’m saying it doesn’t matter as, for example, a referendum matters." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "If I take the example of IETF, between the stakeholder and IETF, you have some innovative between American engineers and south countries, engineers who are not speaking good English." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every working group has a different composition, yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Are there some mechanism to put more regulations between stakeholders?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In France, what I can see in my field is that, to make sure that citizen can express themself, you have to take care of what they are saying. You have to give them more than time than experts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "They can’t share a ground..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will also point out that every expert in a domain that they are not expert with is also just a ordinary citizen. If you start talking about medical profession with me, I don’t know anything about it, even though I’m an IT expert. I become an ordinary citizen if we are going to talk about telemedicine." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In really difficult cases, for example the data protection standard, there is law, there is economy, there is technology, there is social sciences, there is philosophy, and there is no way that one person can be expert in all these different fields. Basically, a multi stakeholder mechanism need to take into account that even the so called experts are ordinary citizens in many fields." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we have designed is basically go to the people instead of asking the people to come to meetings. For example, here, every Wednesday, everybody can come and meet me, but that is mostly people in Taipei and people who live close to the high speed rail station. We admit that this is a limitation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every other Tuesday or so, I tour around Taiwan, to Hualien, Taitung, and so on. While I do this, the 12 ministries, the different stakeholder groups within the public service, they’re still here in the Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They see through telepresence what I see locally in rural or in indigenous places. People don’t have to travel four hours to Taipei or to learn to type with something that they are not very versed with. They just, in their natural habitat, talk about their local issues, talk about what they feel about their sharing economy or whatever they want to talk about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the experts, that is to say the public servants here, to hear what they have to say, and if they have any clarifications or any real questions for public servants, they must answer immediately or at least within two weeks after a meeting, in writing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By this kind of bidirectional communication, it’s not just the Ministry of Health and Welfare and a local people working on elderly care, but the other 11 ministries, they also are here. They hear that this is to be handled in this kind of way. If there’s synergy with the Minister of Interior or Minister of Agriculture, they can also chime in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, what we call about experts or silos is because each ministry employ people who are experts in that field. In this kind of setting, people get a feeling that, \"Oh, when we talk about agriculture, these Health and Welfare ministries, public service, has the same feeling as citizens,\" since we don’t know what you’re talking about.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re first to use more layperson’s wordings, and also make it much easier for other people to understand, not just their colleagues, but also people in the local population." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The citizens have the agenda setting?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "They can choose what they want to talk about?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Are you ever see that the other ministers can be a bit afraid by citizen because sometimes they ask to do some things that they are not used to do?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you have an example?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "For example, when we ask for open data in France, like from EGN, with the mapping data, some of this data was sold by the state. The administration were running the mapping, doesn’t want to ask the citizens about some mapping." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Citizen can ask, but the ministry is not following them, the administration is not following them. Have you ever seen this kind of reserve in the administration?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. In the vTaiwan conversation, there is one that talks explicitly about, if the data processing and procurement is very expensive and the government agency is currently selling this data, do we have a guideline above which it requires a discussion with multi stakeholder panel and below which you just need to publish as open data?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We, I think, established something like a €1 million over the past three years as a demarcation. For example, the National Palace Museum, they, of course, put a lot of effort into digitizing the national treasures. Obviously, that exceeds this number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, for meteorological data or some mapping data, as you just talk about, if it’s below this number, then there’s a national regulation that says, \"Unless you can prove that you spend more than this amount of money over the past three years, then it’s just open data by default.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the way, the National Palace Museum eventually agreed to open 300 dpi data as open data, at least Creative Commons data. It is a way for educational...or for people remix, to make art, or whatever. If you really want to have a high replica of those national treasure that is beyond 300 dpi, then maybe you still go back and buy that digital scan from them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not incompatible to have a business model around high quality and high cost data. You essentially use the open data as an advertisement." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In France, we can see that open data policy is led by generalization and from some data which have some political power. The administration doesn’t want to take the risk. They put on open data all the inoffensive data that have. They keep the more sensible data because of their fear of the reaction of politicians." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we have the same. For example, in Taiwan we have this organ called the Corrective Yuan, which is a different branch of government." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Corrective Yuan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It keeps the campaign donation record of all the people who run for public election. Obviously, this is political." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, the Sunshine laws allows you to go to Corrective Yuan to look at the data, but you cannot download it with a USB stick. All you can do is to print it out, and it’s watermarked. Basically, you can only print this many numbers every day, and that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, only the Corrective Yuan gets to do the auditing. The citizens can only go there to check their numbers are correct, but the citizen cannot do their own analysis. All they have is those A4 printed papers." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Just the results." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. Basically, the Parliament, about three years ago, four years ago, already received the pressure to open this data, but it is not to every legislator’s benefit..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...if this is published, so they kind of resisted. The g0v community, they organized a citizen science project by asking people to go there, to print/copy, to scan, to use Open CV, to separate into CAPTCHA, and then asked people to play a game and to type those OCRs it’s like crowd OCR through this effort, making sure that all the major elections have their campaign donation record opened." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the government says you cannot be 100 percent sure that these numbers are correct, because it’s crowdsourced. The answer from the community is, \"Yeah, if you wanted it to be 100 percent sure, then..." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Open it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"...pass the legislation and open it.\"" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That really took effect, so this year we passed the new law that opens the legislators campaign donation data as detailed, open data. Whatever you can see on paper, you can also see online. If not for this citizen science kind of civil disobedience activity to mount the political pressure, I think it would take even more time for the legislation to cave in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This creates a situation where there is data to be analyzed, and nobody knows whether it’s correct or not, so it creates a pressure for the government to open it for real." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "That’s very interesting. That shows there is some power in the open government situation. We can have the imaginary, the representation of the very fluidity of the network, but I’m sure that there is some point of control." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Some part of the network is more strong than others." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it threatens the representative democracy, then, of course, representative democracy is going to push back." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Of course. You say everything is recorded." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "You put everything online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Is this kind of data got some public...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s structured data. It’s in XML, it’s Akoma Ntoso. We also see that people use it for scholarly analysis and for training of AI acoustic models, [laughs] so that people can use it. For example, in Mozilla, they have a project called Common Voice, where they can take these transcripts and ask other people to read it in small segments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, they crowdsource this into the deep speech engine so that they can recognize the language as is spoken in Taiwan instead of forcing, like in Siri, everybody to speak a perfect Mandarin in order for the machine learning to recognize. I think this is also very creative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Mozilla people, because they use CC0, so eventually this will also feedback to Siri, to Cortana, to Alexa, to whatever, but for public good, because then you will recognize the people as they’re really spoken the language instead of one or two voice actors that they hire." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In France we had an experience of crowdsourcing led by an association, an NGO called Citizen Look, Regards Citoyens. We ask, citizens asks for the declaration of parliamentaries about transparency, about what the function and everything. They release only paper versions, so we put the PDF online, the association asks people to contribute." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very similar." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yeah. That thing very interesting and the parliamentary’s crowdsourcing is not very reliable." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s not very accurate." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yeah. After this beta test, we put a second one, and this second version across the crowdsourcing to be valid. Every information have to be texted by two or three citizens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Indonesia I think it’s three citizens." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Three citizens, OK. What we can see that for the first campaign we got a lot of people, but with the other campaign there is less people mobilized. How can you explain that the g0v community stay mobilized?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because there’s novelty. People, when they think of a new campaign, they don’t use the old assets. People mostly get mobilized because it’s fun, and for many people the fun is in the novelty. For example, today if I ask you to participate in the ice bucket challenge, you will not agree because it’s not fun anymore. Everybody knows what ice bucket challenge is. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in the day it’s new for everybody so it’s fun. I think part of g0v’s mobilization strategy is to make sure everybody can use the label g0v. Next month, in Italy they’re going to launch the budget.g0v.it, the Italy budget visualization of .g0v." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not a chapter in the usual sense, because it’s not trademarked. Nobody really ask anyone [laughs] to use this meme, so g0v, in many senses, it is not a mobilization membership organization. It is just a meme that says, if you see a government thing that you don’t like, you can change a O to a zero and get into the shadow government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This meme itself can spread, and so new ways are found in Italy, in Toronto, in New York, DC, and so on. That, of course, is new to these people. They will also discover new ideas and new memes for people in Taiwan to understand and then to reuse." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it is on the nature of international and cross sectoral collaboration that we constantly find new, fun memes for people to engage with, instead of reusing the old memes that’s one year old. A meme that’s one year old is not viral anymore. Everybody developed a immunity to it." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The fund for mobilization, in France, we use to say no issue, no public. People come in this kind of mobilization because they can feel a larger political issue. We can see that sometimes it’s very difficult to transform the issue in a public problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "All the time, it’s the same citizens who are coming, very few citizens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the mobilization campaign in g0v is the iTaigi project. It’s like urban dictionary for Taiwanese Hoklo, Tâi-gí. That is one of the Taiwanese languages. In iTaigi, they launch a campaign, for example, by asking people to contribute new and innovative translation to all the Pokémon characters. It’s a lot of fun, and nobody knows how to translate it, anyway, so there’s a lot of competition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I mean is that they don’t have to mobilize by appealing to, \"Oh, there’s less people speaking Tâi-gí now. The young people are losing their language,\" or whatever other social issue framing, because that’s not a lot of fun. Instead, they can associate with Pokémon, with jokes, or with other popular comedy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, let people participate because it’s enjoyable instead of appealing to social mission. I’m not saying social mission is not important, but that initial appeal is not social mission." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "When you were speaking about this dictionary, I can see that you are mixing social innovation and civic innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "It sounds very interesting. In France, it’s very different. We have some siloes between social innovation -- this is for digital technologies -- and civic innovation. The incentives in the civic field are often led by start ups and in a kind of concurrence between civic hacking and start ups." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think that’s one of the main issues for the civic tech and civic hacking scene in France. The institution are working with startups because of public market, they give some them some function to make them public consultation. This is very hard for the civic hacking field to build something strong. Do you have the same issue here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In many cases, people worry that the civic tech get absorbed into GovTech, or the civic tech becomes a subsidiary of GovTech, or the social innovation field becomes disenfranchised with the civic hackers, which is all the issues you pointed about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think, personally, in Taiwan, this is less of a problem. The civil society’s legitimacy is higher than that of the government. There’s many people in Taiwan who don’t think the current administration, which call itself the Republic of China, is very legitimate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many people calling for constitutional changes that at least allows people who are 18 years old to have a voting right. It’s constitutionally written that people has to be 20 year old to vote, and that is not seen as legitimate. That is seen as something of a bug in the Constitution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just very difficult to change the Constitution. I use only one example, but there’s many other examples. What I’m saying is that the constitutional legitimacy in Taiwan, because we’re just 30 years since the lifting of the martial law, is still being established." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The larger social innovations, the large co ops, the large non profits, the environmental groups or whatever, they started even before lifting of the martial law, and they have more legitimacy than the current administration itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this situation, you can see the civic hackers aligning with the part that has more legitimacy, that is, the social innovators. [laughs] The government basically says, \"OK, if we cannot beat them, we join them, [laughs] and we compliment the civic hackers.\" I think this is a very particular thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You also see that in Iceland after the financial crisis. You also see it in Spain right after the 15 M. Basically, right after a large scale re imagination, you always see that the civil society has more legitimacy, and they will align with the social sector more than the public sector." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "You take the example of Iceland, and I can say the same for Internet governance, there was one time, if you take a long term, it can be open one time, but the institutionalization makes things that the states are taking power back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Look in Iceland. They make deliberative processes, they vote, and at the end..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They get absorbed back into the Parliament. We can take Better Reykjavik, which is pretty good as online consultation go. On the other hand, people also say, \"Maybe it is not purely ruled by a anarchist politician.\"" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "And the constitution was rejected." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was not yet validated." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You see, a politically correct term." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I do agree. There are constitutional moments like that, where people get to question the very foundation of democracy. There are incremental moments, like Better Reykjavik, basically get their legitimacy through comedic power. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In these two, which all happen in Iceland, we see people have a lot of expectation, but they have to settle for a compromise. This is true, and Taiwan has seen the same thing. In Sunflower, at the end of Occupy, people called for a constitutional national forum. What they got is a economic reform forum, which is still binding. It’s still national, but its scope is limited." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People, of course, then, in the forum, proposed that we have the joint platform, radical transparency for all the regulations, all the budgets, the e petition system, and they all get integrated back. It’s not like it doesn’t make any impact, but the original demand of the Occupy has been institutionalized in a way that can fit within the representative democracy system. So, exactly the same thing has happened in Taiwan in 2014 and ’15." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think that’s one of the main difference with France. We haven’t the same kind of political crisis to start." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have Nuit debout." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I don’t say there is nothing, but not so deep that all the students and the civil society can have some legitimacy to say, \"OK, re build a new system.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the difference between the Nuit debout and the Sunflower is that, over the course of the Sunflower Occupy, the core people, the NGOs and the civic tech people, they reinforce each other’s legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Nuit debout, the core people, the leftists and so on, and the people who did the performances and citizen assembly, and the civic tech people, who mostly played a media role, they don’t seem to be completely focused on reinforcing each other’s legitimacy. I think that is the main difference." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think for Nuit debout, one of the main next step is La France Insoumise, because all these militants translate their engagement in a political party." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is the main difference. In Taiwan, we still see, for example, the New Power Party, but very few people here will say that the New Power Party represents the whole Occupy Movement. We will say it’s one of the off shots of the Occupy Movement." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think that’s a very important difference. In France, our representative culture is very strongly [claps] ." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know you invented it, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For us, it’s very new. It’s like 30 years old." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think that it’s one of the most important difference. That’s why people are totally right that the government is not as open as it can. On some subjects, they say, \"OK, do what you want. I think you are doing well.\" You know what I mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Before I become digital minister, in the 12 months before, I spend five of which in Paris, [laughs] so I understand that the legitimacy flows toward the city government." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is very easy for the city government to basically hire the right people from the social innovation and the civic sector, and basically have the legitimacy be not a two way, but a one way street." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is true." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think that’s one of the main constant that we can make in France. It is plain why the civic tech movement stay very weak in France." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "My last question is about the funding of civic tech movements. I can see that, in the US, you have some foundation, crowdfunding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or media." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The Knight Foundation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Bill Gates and Melinda, Knight Foundation, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In France, we haven’t this kind of foundation. I remember a collective called Open Democracy. We tried to promote open government in France. We are discussing about how to fund. Can we rise some fund for civic tech projects?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You do have a crowdfunding culture, no?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yeah, but not so strong." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not so strong?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "No, not enough to give some independence and some autonomies to the projects. How does it work here? You have some foundations?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in ’14 and ’15, crowdfunding was very strong in Taiwan. There’s a lot of very large movement that just support itself through crowdfunding alone. I’ll also be honest and say, since ’16, people gradually switched to a subscription based crowdfunding. People think that is more sustainable. It gives a more recurring income." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Subscription based crowdfunding depends on a almost personal trust between the people and the creator or the person who gets supported by the crowd. First, it’s not for everyone. Also, it encouraged I use it in a neutral way a more populist framing of the message." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you are going to encourage people to donate to you every month, every creation, every video, or whatever, you have to appeal to more people. You cannot just appeal to people who care about one particular social or environmental issue. You have to basically make a brand out of yourself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We see some of that, like popular YouTubers, that are also social innovators, and try to raise awareness about marriage equality or whatever else. That is one track, and that is still crowd supported. I wouldn’t say it is as strong as the issue supported crowdfunding, back in the ’14 and the ’15. That is one track." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "G0v runs its own grant crowd program called the g0v Grant. They always make sure that they don’t take government funding, or anything related to government in those grant funding so that they can fund civil society project that threatens or challenges government’s legitimacy. They were pretty capable in raising funds for these grants." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are what we call early angel amount. These are not series A or Series B amount. For series A, we have what we call the social impact investment, and there’s a few there. Our current challenge is to basically make civic tech products or services, into something that the series A investors will think that can create triple bottom line feedback." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not venture philanthropy. Taiwan doesn’t have a very strong culture of venture based philanthropy. Basically, it’s still investment or investment that considers social impact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this, our current challenge is to make sure that there are viable business models that grows out of these social innovations that has a lot of people rooting for it, but not necessarily delivering a capital return that can qualify for social investment. That is another track." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, Taiwan has many very large charities, like Tzu Chi is huge. In many disaster relief scenario, they act faster than the government. They have more people than a government. They have more international credibility than the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are also thinking about engaging the younger population. Mostly their population, because they’re a religious group, they mostly engage with more senior people. It’s not just Tzu Chi. There’s, for example, the Children Are Us Foundation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those large foundations, they all face the same issue, in that their constituency is aging and they need to engage the social innovators. Now the civic tech people can act a bridge that care about the same environmental or social thing they care about, but they still speak the language of the younger social entrepreneurs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here, what we’re doing, is essentially building these bridges. We’re still in the early stages, but we are already seeing some funding mechanisms that is resulting because of this collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure whenever that happens, it gets prominent display space on a screen there, which shows my schedule. We have one real estate on the screen, that specifically shows this collaboration between older more established charities, or CSR, and the younger social innovators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever they have this effort, we make press releases. I deliver a speech, I make sure it’s featured prominently because that’s something we’re actively building here." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Of course. In France, one of the main issues is that the only business model which seems to be available for civic tech is data selling." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That data analytics, visualization, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "And personal data selling. We have real issue of trust. Those startups who works, who can develop the activity, people start to distrust them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Each time as you take..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s like selling your chickens before selling the eggs. [laughs] It’s not very sustainable." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I would say that." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "That one is of our main concerned. Each time as you take, want something, it makes their distrust higher. People can see that they are selling data. If they are not collaborating with the institution, they are selling data. People say, tsk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I really think the alliance of the younger civic tech people and the older charities, or nonprofits, or coops that have legitimacy, that is very important." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Coalitions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Coalitions is very important." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Thank you. I will note that. Perhaps the last question about this kind of open office?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Where did the idea come from? Why do you start to...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean office hour?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because in this space, the Social Innovation Lab, when we’re building it, people don’t have the same imagination of what it should do. Some people think it should be a co working space. Some people think it’s just for events. Some people say it should be a display." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody has different ideas, and we have hundreds of social innovators. If we talk to them one by one, we will get nowhere. We use open space consultation technologies. Basically, at the time business are ruined, back in the time. The basement still have floods, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just make sure that there’s one large meeting room, and we just meet in that meeting room. We met, I think, five times, and everything is radically transparent. Every time we show a different blueprint. In a co creation way, people show what’s there important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of it, we have people who did that voting collection of what people’s idea is, so we iterate by the week. People can travel all the way from Taichung, or Hualien, or so on, to voice what they think is useful to them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we have, for example, those remote region social innovation goods that you can scan with the QR code, and buy to deliver to your home. This is not just for people in Taipei. Whenever they make a wish, we make sure that it is recorded. If it’s not in contradiction with any other wish, we make it happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People wished for that this place is open until 11:00 PM every day because they want to chat after dinner. They want to have a kitchen and a chef, so we have a kitchen chef. If you stay for this evening, the chef is making I think some rice products." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I will come back to try." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I hold this discussion every week. They think it’s very useful. One of the wish is that I just go back every week. This is because of those co creation meetings, that they think this is useful to them. I don’t question their motivation. I just come here every Wednesday, because that’s one of the consensus, of the rough consensus, during the cocreation meetings." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "When you were speaking about coalition of NGO and civic tech, in France, one of the problems is..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Coalitions." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Of coalitions. The NGO feel incoherent with this new actors and say, \"OK. You are new. You are young, but you haven’t the experience of institutional discussion and institutional process.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Of negotiating with the government, with international, with the UN." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Exactly. They are trying to block the social initiatives on civic tech movement. They are not funding civic tech. They try to put them on the side. We have a very strong political issue about NGO which are thinking they’re representative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if they’re not affiliated with political parties, they act like political parties, is what you’re saying?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Yes. Of course. They think we are the civic society, which doesn’t want to share this representative power, and the representative situation, and the capability to interact directly with the government. We didn’t want to share this power, so they block." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I understand that in France, the association, they are a fabric of local governance. It is actually arguably a part of the government’s system. I totally understand if they act somewhat like politicians because they’re de facto politicians in many cases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As what we here see in the civic tech sector, this is not a weak or young generation asking for funding or incubation This is a fair trade. One side can provide legitimacy, visibility, representative, how everything as you’ve said, but the other side can make it relevant to younger generation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can make the message more international, and it can also make the message fun. This we have proven once and again. If you don’t have a fun message, you become even less relevant, even for senior constituencies. Everybody now has more distractions than previously." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before the mobile, web, it is a lot of fun to go to your local association meetings. Now, everybody just use their mobile phone for entertainment, even for older people, [laughs] so they need to stay relevant. I think this is one of the thing the civic tech people can offer." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Thank you for this very experienced reflection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much, and see you on Saturday." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Saturday." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cheers. Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Wallis, do you want to make an introduction, or shall I?" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I asked them to give some information about Tech Nation program, because it’s a national program for the start-up ecosystem in UK. They have achieved very great success during the past nearly a decade." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Probably we need Stephan to bring a little bit about Tech Nation and Parveen to draw special attention on the growth program. Parveen is the team lead of the growth program in the Tech Nation part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you have any slides?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We do, if you want to. Otherwise, we can summarize..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, we can just talk." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "...and leave you with a lot of background information, whatever you prefer." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe we start with the brief introduction first." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Maybe just briefly. First of all, Minister Tang, thanks very much for the time. We really appreciate it." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Our contact came about two months ago when Wallis visited Tech City, Tech Nation, London. We had a very fruitful conversation that was including discussing the strength and possibly also weaknesses, opportunities to improve for Taiwan, with a right clear focus around this scaling opportunity." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We understood there is an enormous amount of high tech and emerging start-up industry that’s quite successful, but it is lacking -- we re-confirmed that with a bit of research -- of the real scaling element. That, in the end, has the impact every government in the world wants in terms of tax and economic prosperity." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Our story, we are a quasi-government agency, operating very independently, though. It’s about a 9 to 10-year story. In 2007, ’08, we had the fiscal crisis, global economic crisis, which hit London extremely hard." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "At that time, a number of grassroots start-up entrepreneurs and the prime minister at the time, David Cameron, called together to say, \"Is there an opportunity for us to re-balance the economy from financial and professional services to something else?\" Something else being tech, digital entrepreneurship. Now we look back 10 years later, and have with London the third largest digital tech center in the world." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Silicon Valley, New York, London is the ranking. We are very strong, certainly in Europe, by a mile in the scaling part of it, so very good at taking companies through the different start-up phases, but importantly scaling them for international markets." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "What else do we do in terms of the day-to-day work? We have three pillars. The first one we call advocacy. We do research. We discuss with entrepreneurs basically every day, throughout the entire country, their issues, their problems, opportunities for improvement from a legislative and regulatory perspective." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Take it back to government, the Prime Minister or the regulators, such as financial conduct authority for financial markets, to argue the case. What needs to be there in terms of standards, in terms of market opportunities, in terms of tax incentives, etc., to have the best possible environment? It’s quite sophisticated. It’s not perfect, but quite sophisticated." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Secondly, digital skills initiatives, all the way from influencing formal educational policy to providing practical trainings for young people with a tech background. We help them to develop more the entrepreneurial skills. What do I need to know to start, scale, finance, market their business, hands-on training?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Last but not least, we have a lot of, that might be interesting here, older CXOs, leaders of large private or public organizations to work with start-ups in a fruitful, collaborative way. Starts with funny things like language, different methodologies, different processes." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The leader, the CEO of Barclay’s would come to us and would be educated in a way that he or she is a little bit more effective in collaborating with the innovators. Innovation, for us, very strongly comes out of the CXOs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, capacity building for them, right? Not just as mentors?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The words is almost funny, capacity building for these large industrial giants, but there has been traditionally a rift, a gap, particularly in methodology. I personally have experienced, and I’m coming from the big corporate world, that there’s a lot of misconception, misunderstanding of how to collaborate properly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What the word Agile means." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I had a large bank recently, for our co-innovation project, they sent 20 project managers. On the other side, we had three creators in blockchain who were hugely agile, with zero interest in a calendar and a project plan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And the Waterfall model and everything." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah, and getting the right mix and the right level here was our road. It doesn’t sound very intellectually challenging, but if you don’t do it, the collaboration does not work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s cultural, in a sense." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah, these cultural elements. Again, helping bridge the gap between old, large, but not agile, not fast and the young industry. We believe the young tech industry, in the end, will help us modernize the entire economy, including e-government, etc., really take it and flex it." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Second pillar, it’s the digital skills, also including things like immigration policy. Particularly now, leaving the European Union, we do have an issue. It’s undoubtedly in tech. We want to be open to the world in order to invite very talented entrepreneurs to come." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "About a year ago, I wrote a recommendation letter to one of my very good friends. She is the ex-president of the Open Source Initiative, and she applied for the tech CD immigration..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Immigration visa." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wrote a recommendation. By that time, I read through your brochures and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Perfect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At that time, we were working on our foreign talent with our programs. We liberally lifted some ideas. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I was amazed to see that you have a similarly, or possibly even better, open immigration policy. By the way also, when I talked about the regulatory environment, we are so proud about our open data environment. I looked at the rating of the open data environments, worldwide. Taiwan stands out by a mile, so we have to learn from here. That’s great to see." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Third pillar, our growth programs. It’s largely mentorship-based, covering the entire business life cycle, from a young girl, a young boy with an idea, all the way to CEOs Parveen works with on a daily basis, who are the scaling companies, the unicorns, which we luckily enough have many these days. Growth problems, all the different life cycle phases are the critical point." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Parveen, you possibly can contribute a few points to that." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We very much look at from early-, mid-, and late-stage. Early stage, we have a Digital Business Academy called DBA for short. We have 56 online course, completely free. We’ve done that in partnership with University of Cambridge and UCL. It’s really for those that either want to start a business or actually want to be part of a tech start-up, as well." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Typically, the courses would be, how do you do your marketing strategy? Even to the level of, how do you do your newsletter? How do you measure the response from the newsletter?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is this individual basis, or is there cohorts, like virtual classrooms?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Right now, it’s individual basis, so you would take the course..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...service, then?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yes, absolutely, and you have videos. We also bring in not just the academics, but we bring in entrepreneurs or experts in marketing that would then do the videos and so forth. That’s for those that are looking to start." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Those that have just come up with an idea, and so they’re looking at producing their MVP or their proof of concept, we have something called Founders Network, which is a national program. The idea behind that is a peer-to-peer learning. A founder in Cambridge could connect with a founder in Birmingham or Brighton." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We also then bring those founders together in those areas. We’ll bring in the early-stage founders working with that region, that regional cluster, and do events where we bring in keynote speakers and so forth. Really, that is for us to make sure that we have a national message." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "At the moment in the UK, we have different clusters. Cambridge is very strong in AI. Belfast is very strong in cybersecurity. What we want to do as Tech Nation is bring them all together at early stage and we do that by our Founders Network." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We have a competition, as well, called Rising Star. Again, it’s a national program. With that, it’s typical to any other pitching competition. You get mentorship, you get a prize package, and so forth. One thing we’re now focusing on, because if we look at the ecosystem in the UK, the digital ecosystem, we’re now focusing on sector-specific program." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We’ve just launched our first one in fintech, because the UK and London is very strong in fintech. We’ll then be moving on to cybersecurity. Then -- this hasn’t been announced -- it’ll be AI. We’re looking at sector-specific programs for early-stage businesses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you see AI as a sector?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Sorry?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you see artificial intelligence as a sector?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, just for the artificial intelligence." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Maybe it’s, in my perspective, not exactly an industry vertical. It’s cyber and AI-enabling technologies that we need in everything, spanning from e-commerce to mobility to healthcare. We want as many early-stage companies in that as possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Also, with the regulation and whatever specific challenges they have, whether it’s..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you also do advocacy for people who are petitioning? For example, to change the regulatory rules of ethical AI or AI relating to children’s rights. There’s a lot of consultations that are going on. You are also active in that process?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Absolutely. We will be. Fintech’s launched, so we work very closely with HM Treasury. We’ll be doing the same with cybersecurity. We’re working with GHCQ and others. Really, for us, we can’t lobby, but we do policy convening. We bring in various entrepreneurs. We have round table discussions with Number 10, the special advisors to the prime minister, to make sure their voices are heard." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Talent has come up, especially with Brexit. We’ve done various round tables around that. We did round tables in terms of visas. Actually, from the policy convening, this is where the Tech Nation visa scheme came about from a few years back." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "There’s maybe a good example for AI. It doesn’t exist as yet, but when we look back to the financial services fintech environment, we are convening. since about two years, every six to eight weeks, a round table between incumbent banks and insurance companies and tech challengers." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The FCA is observing the discussions. It’s all about common standards and level the playing field, because normally regulation is protecting the incumbent organizations. I think we are heading towards, as part of this AI program, a similar institution that would help shape ethical AI, some ground rules." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The same might happen actually in blockchain, blockchain smart contracts, to have a bit of a regulatory framework around cyber, around the application of smart contracts etc. Again, with the tech challenges, only as start-ups having shaped these policies, so it’s really fit for purpose." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the UK, when the fintech sandbox first came about, we see a lot of start-ups working on regulation technology or RegTech. I think that is one of the main thing that everybody wants nowadays. It’s less clear on RegTech works on blockchain, actually. Actually, very blurry. [laughs] I think, whenever there’s a regulatory challenge, there is a potential market official." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "To make sure we have this dial-up between sometimes old, established administrators trying to use regulation to block innovative services. We want to make sure this doesn’t happen, it’s a level playing field, eye to eye. Most likely it is going to happen in AI, as well." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, I think so. That’s very much our early-stage programs. Then we have our mid-stage, which is those companies that have raised, at sector or across state, Series A or have £500,000 in revenues. They tend to have 30 percent month-on-month growth based on their business metrics. That could be customer acquisitions and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "What we do with them, it’s actually more of a master class. We have scale-up coaches. We’ve had the CEO and founder of PayPal, who would almost give a master class in scaling, like, \"These are the things you need to be thinking about.\"" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Or we’ll bring in somebody who’s a chairman for various late-stage tech businesses. They talk about what you need to look at when you bring a chair on. If you look at the challenges these companies are facing, it’s very much, \"How do we scale internationally? How do we put our board together? What about the processes?\" and so forth. That’s how we support our mid-stage companies." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It’s a six-month program, and we bring in only 30 of the UK’s top companies that fall into that bracket. Future 50, which is a program I’ve been working on for a few years, this is basically the UK’s top digital companies. We’ve had the likes of Skyscanner been involved, Farfetch, Deliveroo. There’s been 127 companies that have gone through the program." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It was launched by a previous chancellor, George Osborne, at the London Stock Exchange in December 2013. The idea really back then was for companies to list in the UK as opposed to the NASDAQ. Since then, the IPO market went down." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It really changed." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It totally changed. We’re on six. There was an IPO last week with Funding Circle. We’ve had six IPOs, but four of those were in 2014 with Just Eat, Zoopla, and so forth. We’ve had 29 M&As. I’ve mentioned Skyscanner, which was acquired for over a billion dollars. We’ve also had Matches Fashion, which was reported acquired over a billion." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Since the companies have joined the program, they’ve raised £5.5 billion in VC funding in capital markets. How we support them is really shining a light on these companies to say, \"Look, these are the UK’s top-scaling digital businesses.\"" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We also do, I’ve mentioned the policy convening. We help them with any press opportunities, scaling internationally, as well, but where the secret sauce is with that program is the networking. We’ll bring in the CMOs together every quarter, the CEOs, and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We have 50 in the cohort, but actually, all the alumni still want to come to the events. Even these companies that have really scaled, are making so much money, they still want to come to our events." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is there an online community? Y Combinator is famous for their Bookface community. Is there a online part of this?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yes, there is online. We use Slack channels and so forth. I think where they really see the value-add is when they come together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We do regular dinners, or I’ll just put them in a room together. I said, \"What do you want to talk about?\" Then they discuss it among themselves. That’s the program, from early right through to late." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the mid-sized, as I understand this, it’s sector agnostic." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t have to enroll in earlier programs to enter. Is there any percentage of community interest companies or CICs in that stage?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Is that more social enterprise?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "I think that’s quite interesting. In terms of our remit, our remit is to grow the digital economy, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "The way the UK government looks at that is, how many companies are these people employing, and then revenues. Unless they meet the revenues, we don’t really tend to support more of those social enterprises." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I mean Bell Water is not super digital. I understand that. There’s no clear overlap between the two?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "None." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I visited the Ministry of Fun, DCMS, [laughs] they have a separate strategy, the civil society strategy. It looks like from their wording that their strategy and the digital economy strategies is almost like zero overlap, and I just want to confirm this on the survey." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It’s true, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "A few examples we have been dabbling in." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "With the tech missions." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah, fintech, now fintech for Good." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, fintech for Good. Sorry, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "In using start-up ideas plus lunch bags, credit scores in order to do something for a fairly large part of the population that’s either unbanked -- would you believe it -- or are not really able to manage their finances properly, so it’s funny and..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like an inclusion, financial inclusion." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Financial inclusion, not a bank account here, basically, not able to get proper employment, so there’s a social element." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our first fintech sandbox case is also a very..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I think it’s awesome to see that tech can be used, commercially successful, tech can be used to do something that’s actually good for society. We want to, we’re in a planning phase now. We’re making our first inroads, put it that way." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We’re starting Tuesday, next week, with something we call Tech Nation Missions. We defined a number of problems that are too large even for a Siemens, a General Electric to address in their own right. It could be the future of mobility." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Even a car ownership that we’re working with, Jaguar Land Rover is an example, and it could, not far more, the future of well-being as a proposition. How do you keep people healthy from cradle to grave, avoid chronic disease, avoid the cost that implies on the healthcare system?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We want to bring together the large corporations in that field in our vision. This would be stay with well-being a pharma company, a biotech company, somebody who’s good at data analytics, Google, somebody from the consumer space tracking data from your wrist, university hospitals, healthcare providers, health insurers, in order to first, ideate, create scenarios, and then start the development process." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That will include ideation, incubation, acceleration, proof-of-concept, where the start-ups to a large degree would provide the ideas, the corporations deep tech knowledge, deep regulatory knowledge, a bit of funding undoubtedly, and most importantly, scaling opportunity." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "If you come up with something that’s really good, we want to use, let’s say, GSK -- GlaxoSmithKline -- in order to not scale it to the UK, but to scale it globally from day one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s the name of this?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Tech Nation Missions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Missions?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Missions. Again, it is a bit conceptual. Where are we today? We are working with single corporates to help them more in open innovation environments. That’s what we already do, bridging this gap between a large corporate and a start-up." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We want to take it to the next level, which is really addressing problems. They would have incredible impact on society and quality of life, but they also would be very substantial commercial opportunities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I liked the social impact angle, because just a few weeks ago..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The word mission is a bit broader than just corporate innovation which everybody does." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. I talked with the French Tech people, and they’re doing a very similar pivot. We’re brainstorming Fintech for Good or whatever, but I think Missions is a really good one." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "For us, I was always very insistent on doing good is fantastic to do, but unless you have a very substantial commercial opportunity, people will lose interest, particularly the big ones will lose interest. They could do it as a marketing activity, not as a corporate..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Because people see good and they think, \"Ah,\" or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Give it to the marketing, it’s not what we want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly, but mission is about business development and with similar-minded people." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah. We want them to make billions for revenue, but we also want them to address the things that are bad for our environment, bad for our society. It’s their vision, so hopefully next year we can report back early successes, hopefully." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Again, it ties into the scaling story, so with the growth programs, mid-sized, late stage, if proven that this mentorship-based approach is incredibly effective, it doesn’t sound that complicated. I’m from consulting background. It’s interesting to see that these entrepreneurs don’t want consultants. They want to speak to somebody who’s actually been in the same environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s all about the report." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Parveen’s programs have enabled us to be in a situation today that, let’s say, five years ago only existed in the Valley. It’s people like Musk giving back to the next cohort. We do have that now since about three, four years." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very, very..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "In essence, it’s quite magical element. I travel a lot, and I don’t see many ecosystems that really manage the scaling opportunity. You got lots of great environments for a start-up, really rich start-up societies or communities, but even Tel Aviv does not scale properly. It’s very successful to a stage, but it doesn’t really produce the large scale-ups at that rate." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s a little bit of magic, and where we want to assist if you can leverage our experience, expertise, as good as possible, or even entire programs like Future 50, to see if there would be an opportunity for Taiwan to strengthen the scaling part of it." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Last but not least, we are start marketing, that’s more relationships if we want to fly the flag for our ecosystem. We would like to see more Taiwanese entrepreneurs to come to London, or if they are in robotics, maybe Bristol is a better place. If they’re in semiconductors, Cambridge is the best way to be to use the scaling to come, explore, and decide if they like it, the scaling opportunity the UK can provide." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The other way around for more companies like Deliveroo, which I understand opened here last week to consider Taiwan also as a sales market as a manufacturing destination. A little bit of bad players, players with bidirectional awareness for a market, creating interest. That’s also part of why we are here as an exploratory mission, and we’re very, very grateful to Wallis and her team for making this possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m particularly interested in the Missions part which is reflected in my impart. It was the global bulletin. If you flip it around, it says [non-English speech] . [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "You and global goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It’s fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a four-year social innovation plan. We are explicitly SDG indexing all our work. For example, in my own office we use the specific goals to identify our work. We work on 1718, 1717, and 1706." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The important thing of using these numbers is that it provides a very simple to use dashboard, almost like a common chat channel or a common language to discover mutual possibilities, because mission statements tend to be long, and it’s [laughs] very difficult to train AI to actually get a real mission for [laughs] our mission statements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just use the 169 or so SDG numbering for our social innovators, which why I ask about CRC, because in Taiwan we don’t have CRC. All we have is just regular companies. We are asking them now if they have specific products or services that is also mission-oriented, \"Please give us some numbering so that we can register you and find you international opportunities.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, there’s a AI mission learning team working with the Taiwan Water Corporation, which manages the longest pipe in anywhere in the world. They have a problem with the detecting water leaks, and they used to have people going around and listen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It takes a year and a half to tour around Taiwan, but then they use machine learning with SCADA and things like that, and then it shortened the time needed to detect a leakage by tenfold, which is a pretty good..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We need this company in London." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we SDG index it as part of our presidential Social Innovation Hackathon, and then the people in New Zealand discovered. They didn’t have a water shortage problem, but because of climate change, they now have." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t really have that technology ready, so it’s either buying a very expensive solution on the she from Tel Aviv, or co-create with some local start-up there, the Taiwan Water Company. The team is now actually in Wellington working with the water company." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is one of the pieces that I think it makes a lot sense, just exactly as you said, to have the entry area still be a revenue-based or employment-based or whatever, but once you enter in it, we just demand some SDG numbers out of them, and then we start those natural collaborations." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s actually a great thought. We didn’t really include that. If we may, we may steal your concepts..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, please do. Please do, because the more people use it, and I mean we can use it until 2030, so it’s [laughs] still quite on time to use this stuff." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Because it’s a currency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a currency. It really, really helps people to communicate their missions, because otherwise they spend two months and find their mission doesn’t have a luck and that’s a waste of time for everybody." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "To prove the outcome in the end make it very communicable." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, and then also beautiful incomes is a winner." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That, really, I truly believe I’ve seen it in a number of countries, last big project that it was in Switzerland, that this gap, which seems to exist here as well between larger corporates, larger medium-sized companies. Something that’s much more innovative but behaves very differently, in a framework where you have this big objective, brings people together in a very different way, in very mission-oriented ways." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I visited the UK, there’s this nice advisor for the Department for International Trade who used to work for GSM. He also said that GSM, before he also used the same SDGs system to basically mark all the GSM-funded or collaborates each project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can click in any of these start-ups, and you see exactly which goal they’re working on. It’s a kind of dashboard. Of course, it’s still cold screen because they only use the 17 instead of the detail indicators, but I think this is pretty much, it is game currency, is what I’m saying." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Great idea." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We can consider to planning for the missions." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, yeah. Talk to me." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s pretty much where we stand at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We went to see this space where the...What was it? The Social..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social Innovation Lab?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This space?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah. It’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s my office." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every Wednesday from 10:00 to 10:00, I’m there." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, yeah. They said." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "So you do open hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. People can come to my office how as long as they need for the radical transparency. Most of the time they just need a human face to really listen, and then because it’s practically transparent, and they’re SDG indexed, so my main work is just to introduce them with other companies, maybe in very different fields that actually are working on this mission. It has been pretty successful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people, of course...Yeah, you missed this, which was a few months ago. We have a lot of self-driving tricycles driving around in the social innovation lab. It’s from Media Lab, MIT, but it’s open source. It’s called PEV or Persuasive Electric Vehicles, and they’re tricycles. They’re very slow. They’re same ride of road with the pedestrian. It won’t cause accidents if they run into people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They really gives people imagination of how AI co-domestication works like, because it’s open source. If you want to put some emotions on it, just talk to a local college student. If you want to put out AR or VR, see the world through the eyes, and explain why they stop in the road and whatever. There’s a lot of hackathon topics, because it’s very cheap. They use the cheapest LIDAR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a, I think, really good way to frame ethical AI, because it’s just that RegTech is very abstract for everybody involved." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For AI banking or for AI vehicles, again, it impacts everybody. We don’t want to wait until it hits somebody, right?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this norm setting is also one of the reason why we do the Social Innovation Lab as a kind of Lego lab." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "That’s a great way for people to get used to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. It doesn’t take out jobs of anyone. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "I know. We always have this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a domestic or companion animal." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Absolutely. I went to a really good AI conference in London called COGEX. It was one of the better conferences I went to. It was great, because you had a real mix of academics, entrepreneurs, but those that are working in philanthropy, as well, scientists, but also philosophers. It’s this whole discussion in terms of where AI’s going, the society impact, as well." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Who decides? It’s that train test, isn’t it? If there’s a family here and one man there, how does AI decide?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I think it’s actually incredibly important when we look at entrepreneurship. [coughs] Excuse me, I apologize. It’s from the plane." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No problem." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "When we look at entrepreneurship culture, when you ask a young boy today, \"What do you want to be?\" A tech entrepreneur. If you ask a young girl today, it’s maybe the number four job, which is still very, very good. All the geographies in Europe, it’s governmental, a big company, being a consultant, etc." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "To have a similar discussion around AI early on, in order to prepare society a bit broader to embrace it, but also to be aware of the risks at the outset. At the moment, there’s too much fear amongst those who have a lack of understanding of what it would be." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s just perceived as the job-killer for the middle class." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Social Innovation Lab, actually just yesterday, [laughs] we’re using AI-powered conversations to get people’s feelings about various things. Yesterday’s topic was about non-consensual intimate images, which is a neutral term for revenge porn." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We used the same for people without professional driver’s license, drive people and charging them for it, which is a neutral term for UberX, and so on. For each of those terms, we used this online conversation space, where you can see your avatar among your Facebook or Twitter friends." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we present them with facts, crowdsourced, and then we ask how they feel about it. We use face-to-face deliberation, livestreamed, to ideate. The best idea are the one that take care of most people’s feelings. Then we turn it into law, which is how Uber became legal in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It works like this. When you go into it with a mobile phone, you see a feeling from your fellow citizen, you can click agree or disagree. As you do so, you move among the clusters. There’s no reply button, so you can’t troll other people or post cat pictures." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The only way if you feel like those sentiments doesn’t capture your feeling, you can just propose a new feeling for other people to vote on. We found that, with AI moderation, which is finding the most polarized orthogonal dimensions through principal component analysis and K-means clustering, we always end up with this shape after three weeks or so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People agree to disagree on a few things, which defines the groups, but they don’t spend much time on it. Whereas, in Twitter or Facebook, they spend all the time on it. Because this space rewards resonance, they compete to make statements that resonates with more people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say we are bound by these consensus. Then we always hold ourself to account to have a multi-stakeholder conversation based on the consensus and asking essentially how people react to it. That’s how we regulated Uber, autonomous vehicles, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is called the vTaiwan system. I think it’s one of the key things that people feel AI is something that is neutral, that can facilitate human discussion. If you use Q method or whatever other method, you can do the same thing, but it’s very labor intensive, and people will question the moderators’ neutrality. If we use a open-source AI system, people can audit it. They can set it up on their own laptop and confirm." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Wow. That is genius." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s impressive." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "That is really, really clever. The challenge now is like you mentioned with Facebook. It’s really difficult to reel out from the noise. There’s a lot of noise in terms of opinions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s not designed for public discussion. It’s designed to keep you on it. It’s selling addiction." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It’s like that book \"Hooked\" and how Facebook have hired both from the gaming, like gambling, to make sure people are hooked on these devices. This is a great way to really understand, \"What are people thinking?\" That’s always a challenge, whether it’s governments or even companies, to realize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the vTaiwan system. If you had visited the Social Innovation Lab last night, that’s the weekly meeting." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s fantastic to see how this informs public policy-making. For you, that’s a challenge here, to get public opinion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without this kind of neutral, multi-stakeholder space, which of course we took from Internet governance, but it’s now going through everywhere, because multilateral systems are not very well equipped to deal with AI, to be frank. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through this kind of communication, we make these kind of spaces by asking common values, as SDG-indexed, and then innovations that deliver on these values. Otherwise, it’s like this. People want economic development and people want social solidarity, people want whatever. They talk to government agencies, and we’re like this. We are being in the middle. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s essential that we make spaces that are not Facebook that can serve this blank." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "That’s really good." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s fascinating. You see lots of so-called open e-governments, where policy drafts are being published. Basically, every second country in the world does that now. You can comment as a citizen. There are five people giving you feedback, and they are maybe interest groups." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s already 80 percent cooked and everybody knows about. What this process is is basically we don’t know anything about it. We just ask people how they feel. It’s really early in the process. In terms of design thinking, it’s very early, in the first diamond. The result is a how might we question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not a referendum. This is just a pre-ideation, a how might we. If we don’t have that, actually it’s very easy to get polarized." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Absolutely. Actually, it’s very nice to be asked how you’re feeling, because people don’t ask anymore. [laughs] It think it’s nice for government to ask." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For months, we just ask for feeling, because there’s no right or wrong feelings." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Exactly. Wow, I like that. It’s very good. Thank you. Thanks for sharing it." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We should bring this example back to the mayor of London. We just had a very confrontational discussion in the public between the mayor and Uber, revoking the Uber license. The public, I believe, but I’m not representative, is loving the service, so what’s right or wrong here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a advocate for this methodology in the UK called Geoff Mulgan." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Jeff Morgan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Geoff Mulgan of Nesta." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Oh, OK." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He wrote this book, \"Big Mind.\" He used the vTaiwan example to illustrate an entire section. I think Nesta has a team that works with DCMS — the Ministry of Fun — on innovations in democracy. That’s the new project they’re working on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a slice of people from Policy Lab, Nesta and so on, aware of this book, but I don’t think it’s very well-known anywhere in the UK." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Innovation and democracy." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "They never raised it to us." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We know Nesta quite well. We did a previous report jointly with Nesta." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "I should definitely shout out to them, find out a bit more. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have you visited the Start-up Terrace here?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yes, yesterday. The Start-up Stadium or what was the name?" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "TTA, and Startup Terrace, as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You visited both?" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes, yesterday morning and yesterday afternoon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I haven’t been to Linkou yet." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was early stage. [laughs] It’s mostly a resident place, but they are being renovated into start-up incubators and things like that. People worry about the lack of display space. There’s plenty of work space, co-working space, and residential space. I am curious what you feel about it." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I actually thought I saw a few parallels to something that seems to be working well for us. We had the Olympic Villages, ’12 Olympics. That’s been turned into a center, and it’s operating, where creativity and e-tech meet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Almost the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s really funny. There’s Tech University’s UCL departments, there’s a school for ballet, school for creative, and there’s a large co-working space/innovation center called Plexar, very much addressing mobility as an example. Developing part might well be there in the future." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "The Terrace has a similar feel to it. Plexar, though doesn’t have loads of exhibition spaces to it. The concept of work/life in one place, shops downstairs, a community of innovators that’s coming together. If you’ve got innovators, start-ups, there’s the creative and academic part of it in one site." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "There’s also space for corporations. We see that more. Even Microsoft or Google is setting up 20 people in that environment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not for casual tourists? It’s all people working there for business, for their purpose." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yes. The ultimate goal is to create more...There are no early-stage start-ups really. It’s more scaling businesses." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s a very interesting mix. We talk so much about digital and tech. Then you come in such an environment, where there’s a school for ballet or for performing arts. Thinking a little bit further, what’s the future of digital entertainment, AR/VR plus some creative content? You’ve got a very interesting proposition again. This mix and this collision, they produce that on Stratford in this environment." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "I think that’s something that they’re very much encouraging. Even if you look at Shoreditch, that was that mix. Clerkenwell was renowned for design, and then the media companies that they said that would develop in these apps. You had the universities close by, and then you had a bank, which was just down the road, so you had all the big corporates, and it was that real mix." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "That’s something that we really focus on in terms of even the speakers that we bring. I was just mentioning before, we brought a negotiator. She was the negotiator Taliban and in the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "She came in and gave a talk on, \"How do you really do negotiation?\" We brought in Ben Saunders, who’s a polar explorer, footballers, really for them to talk about how they manage stress, but also goal-setting and everything. It’s this cross-pollination of ideas, about thoughts, but key learnings, as well. That’s something that we really focus on in the program." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Going back to your question, I was actually saying to Wallis I love this area. I can live here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "I really liked it, and she was quite surprise. It’s, for me, because it was quieter. It wasn’t as hectic as downtown." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "You felt like you could breath and be more creative. It depends, but I think if you get a community there, a nice community, then people will come to that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is right. Basically, it’s in the curation." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Which would be my point, which you can influence. Maybe you have two or three sectors that you really want to push, like IoT and biotech. Then it curates a community that would be supporting that vision. Plexar, Olympic Park started as a work space where everything is possible." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Then realized there are a hundred companies, but they don’t really interact that much and changed the strategy towards, \"There are a number of things we really want to drive out of here because environment and the community is right for it.\"" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It could be digital entertainment. It was certainly mobility. The environment and the different people and the institutions that are there is really conducive to it, in one, confined physical space. You don’t need to travel five miles to find the next expert. You meet them at the coffee store downstairs." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s maybe the curation of this community, if you’re worrying about the Terrace, which I understand is a massive investment, the largest one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a massive investment. Also, I think that the main thing is that when I visited in New York last week, we had a pretty good entrepreneur there called RentHub. It’s a kind of AI-based Craigslist. They work also in a NYC-sponsored, very much like the space you were talking about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They mentioned that there’s little to no interaction between the tenants. It’s not based on the real cohort. Because of this, then becomes apparent that they will need to make their own events or maybe the ask for exhibition space comes from that, because they don’t get sufficient solidarity with their neighbors. They have be more public-facing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think with the right curation maybe we can focus more inward. I think that’s a great suggestion." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Not to say it’s just angel-funded entrepreneurs, software entrepreneurs. A bit of a broader mix to make sure it’s really vibrant. I was very impressed with what has been done. Here East is the hub which is miles out of town. It is Stratford, so it’s not the center of the city." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Stratford, nobody goes there. It used to be a very rough area, and it has still got that association. However, I think because the Olympics was there, and also where Here East is was the press office for the Olympics, so you can imagine the fiber connections and the WiFi. It’s the best, because the Olympics was only in 2012. Things like that help." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "You’ve got a nice canal. They’ve made the most and developed the parks and everything, as well." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Actually, if there’s a worry about the Terrace, I’m most happy to make the connect with the CEO of Here East, who runs the Olympic Park." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "A very transformational guy, who’s really been responsible, the driving force behind, \"Let’s not forget this park, this multi-billion-dollar investment. Let’s make something creative out of it,\" and he has succeeded." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not so much worry as we need to settle on a certain message. If you want to do curation, the most important thing is the curator’s vision, like what we want to make out of this. At the moment, I know most of the Terrace team, actually. [laughs] They work really hard, but to attract investors and attract people who work on the scaling part of the investment innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s really needed is a clear message to investors and the ecosystem that you can see this kind of cohort here, so it’s worth your time to put 10 people here as the resident team. Without this, of course everybody says they will visit from time to time, but then people will need to run exhibitions, because they don’t have sufficient ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Which is always a bit artificial." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I’ve run an acceleration program in the very conservative Swiss environment five years ago with UVS, Credit Suisse, and 20 other of these traditional companies. In the end, we had them, for the CEOs, to come. You go into the open innovation space for open house, come every week. They have their board sessions there." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It was just the informal collisions we had that were really valuable, much more valuable than the actual program." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The social capital is hundreds times more than the capital." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah. To your point, it was not exhibitions. It was almost unplanned -- planned/unplanned. We created an environment that attracted and enabled these collisions to happen. It was really in a very conservative society, so I was quite surprised, actually, positively surprised something like that works." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need all the help to help formulating [laughs] that core message. Thank you for the offer to make the introduction. We may just take you up on it. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Please do. I think they would be delighted. They are quite proud about what they’ve done..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "...and happy to share, I’m pretty sure, their pride, to tell the story. For Wallis, if we have the opportunity to run something or share something, like Future 50, it could very well be in such a space as the physical representation of it, to run it in such a place. Would possibly also give it a bit of an uplift." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s a very clear proposition. It’s one of the world’s best scaling programs. Marketing, branding and having these examples also drives excitement about it. Just ideas, but maybe it could be something." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes, a very good ideal. We can think about it. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m super happy to help." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything from you guys?" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Let me share about why I brought them here. Actually, I come from the SMECF. Last year, I just worked for the III. My major responsibility is take charge of the large-scale R&D subsidy program of IDB. We call it TIIP. Previously, it’s a leading technology product program. In total, it has been 25 years." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "For this program, we just helping a lot of hardware manufacturing enterprises or corporate in Taiwan achieve very successful achievement. This year, because some director generalswitched posts, officials just shifted from IDB to SMEA." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. The entire team horizontally migrated, including the director general Wu and Betty Hu." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "That’s the ones I work with, the IDB now. Now I just re-work with them in SMEA. Of course, because, at the SMEA, they have their own mission." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re going to be the start-up administration, which is very exciting." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes. Apart from my major TIIP program, now I have the chance to take part in the SMEA part, especially for the start-up ecosystem. The other part is for the township revitalization. I think you must have heard about it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I take part in that [laughs] program, as well. I have three programs I’m charged. What I go to the UK, because for the SMEA ecosystem innovation part led by the doctor say I have a program cooperated with the III, the operator of Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "The main program, they like to be with the forum and put a lot of resources on it to help the start-up and SMEs in the very early stage because of lack of resources. I’m responsible for building the national mentor. Where is my mentor? Of course, it’s my TIIP database, because we have very large corporate and we have the C-suite level." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "They have a very close relationship with my director. My director, she worked with this program for 25 years, so she has very deep relationship with the C-suite level of the big corporate. That’s why we would like to be with the national network." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Why I go to UK, because the I choose the Tech City as their benchmark. I just read some information about their growth program. Previously, I just chose probably the Upscale is very suitable for me because of the master mentor part." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "When I really, really went to UK, the timing’s very interesting. I visited the UK about June. Actually, in the beginning of this year, they were still Tech City, but in the beginning of May, they upgrade. [laughs] They change to Tech Nation." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I think there’s a very good chance to see, because a program change their name, change their focus and broaden, that means they must have some very successful experiences as their base. What I want to do next that really interests me, firstly, I just traveled to Edinburgh to listen to their national tour in Edinburgh." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I saw the CEO of Tech Nation, Grech. The presentation is very short, about five minutes. The CEO just say everybody know about Tech City, because they around about 10 years. Only one..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even I know about Tech City. [laughs] It’s very famous." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yeah, so I just want to mention something very important is our visa scheme. Before, we are looking for the patent, to have the IPO. Now we are looking for something more professional for the price of the technology. Especially I’m focused on the group in the Silicon Valley. Valley people right now have this kind of person can apply on visa scheme to come to help us." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "After the five very short presentation, they have two launch forum. The first topic is, \"Does the UK really need a unicorn?\" They invited three companies, of course, unicorn company and a very early-stage company. The very early-stage company, of course, they lack resources. They say, \"I think UK has enough unicorns, so the government resources, please pay attention to us. We need support.\"" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Finally, I just see the CEO, Grech, stand up, \"I appreciate your opinion and feedback, but everybody, I need to tell you, UK need unicorn. That’s why I bring us so much about the international investment and why we have the job opportunity and very prosperous, because the unicorn bring us.\" I just have that very big image I just kept in mind. Then I went back to London." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I’m very happy that Stephan have 90 minutes to talk to me. I just asking him about unicorn program. Of course, he said Future 50, which is led by Parveen, is the most successful unicorn producer in the world. You see, actually for the Future 50, just launched in 2000..." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "December 2013." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Now it’s 2018, but how many unicorns they created? Of course, a unicorn, for me, now is a term for the very good international investment and very good performance of economic growth. During the dialogue between Stephan and me, he is talking about it probably the technician would have the international Future 50 country name." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I just thinking about, \"Oh, are you interested to have a Future 50 in Taiwan?\" We have the start-up ecosystem, like a dedicated goal, but actually we, from my point of view, still see there’s some problem just for the scaling up. Everyone’s still in the very early stage. \"I have a very cool idea that I can save the world,\" something like that, but in the end, actually we didn’t see any very good result." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I think probably we need some assistance from the scaling up part. I’m just talking to Stephan. I’m very appreciate about support from my director and the officials of SMEA. They support it. I just try to invite them to come to visit us. I think before we have a real cooperation relationship, I would like to show what Taiwan’s is and how our ecosystem works for you." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Of course, for me, I will persuade a lot of them to visit you, but I think you need to witness yourselves. I tell Stephan that we are very good in manufacturing. Now, the world trends go to IoT smart machine. It must apply the hardware manufacturing and for the software, digital scale, as well, for the integration." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I think that Taiwan might be a very good choices for them. During my TIIP program, I just have a very close cooperation relationship with the French part. As you know, there is the ICC bilateral between the French government, DGE, and IDB." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Actually, I just work with the bank people last year. This year, we have the company in French side and in Taiwan side to joint apply for us. We are just a R&D subsidy program. French company likely earn the loan from Bpifrance. This year, it just happened." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m aware of that program. It’s one of those programs that really, I think, is a win-win program for both sides." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "That is my major charge right now. I think that, based on my previously experience, I’m very looking forward to having the cooperation relationship with Stephan. During this week, we’ll still have some discussion, because I need to briefly..." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "As I have told you, I have the three program. Now the three program work very separately. I think I maybe use this endpoint as the corporate innovation. As Stephan just read briefly, talking about the corporate innovation and ecosystem now is totally separate." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "For my job, for the mission of TIIP, we are helping the Taiwanese corporate to upgrade, to upscale, so that innovation is very important. If the innovation only occur internal, actually I don’t think something would happen. It might be minus. They need to do a lot of connection and relationship with the outside ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "What really, really surprised me for Parveen, the Future 50 program, actually they didn’t provide any real resources like co-working space, money..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social capital is the real resource. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes. Actually, she mentioned to me several times, emphasize, network is very, very important. Future..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s everything. Everything is just..." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Connections." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Other things are just a byproduct. You get a unicorn because you have the right connection between the business..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...ecosystem. It’s not you have first unicorns and then you do BD. It doesn’t work like that. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes. That’s my observation about a real corporate situation in Taiwan. I think most of them, lack of the connection, because people all focus on theirselves. Because of my sister, she’s working for a TIIP as well, this year, she held several open house event. We invited them to have an open house event as well." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "For us, it’s very interesting. If the open house event, the attendants are all start-ups, that would be great. Everyone is very enjoy in networking exchange messages and talking about the corporation. If we invite a traditional corporate visit, that they’re together, nobody, no one want to say anything. That for me is a very interesting phenomenon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, the MLEA did actually mix Taiwan, which is explicitly designed to bring those different generations together. I’m not saying they’re super successful. I’m saying their hearts are in the right place. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We managed to find some breakthrough in the social innovation lab, I think, mostly because the Director General had previous connections. He basically chose people who care about actually the kind of long-term healthcare, the biomedical information or whatever. They were very successful CXOs already that they’re getting old or their parents are getting old." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, they care about this much more than their original company. I may have to edit this part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, they then become very interested in engaging with the latest developments in long-term care and telemedicine." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s great to hear. I was sometimes wondering corporate innovation as we know it, everybody in the world does it or many people do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "That’s looking at the quick productivity gain or a product fix or whatever it is. Should we be much more ambitious addressing these big companies such as Google? It excites people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a start-up that there works with universal design, I think that’s the term now, accessibility design, that engage people with different abilities, physical abilities like wheelchair users, to become designers of spaces using iPad or whatever. They do BIM or whatever, which is innovative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, this company also partners with a travel company to basically plan traveling for elderly and the people who are in wheelchairs so that they can enjoy transportation and so on. They always said it was very difficult if they launch an exhibition or an event and convince their large investors to come." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they managed, for example, to work to plan with a CXO of a major bank’s mother on a road trip [laughs] that makes her comfortable and so on, and suddenly, the connection is being made. They don’t need exhibitions or whatever, they need this kind of huddled cohort that cares about the same thing. I think Director General is a great curator for this kind of themes." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes, because TIIP is the program under IDB. Now, the Director General is Mr. Liu. What I want to do, because from the corporate innovation standing point, for the ecosystem builder’s perspective, I’m talking about Parveen. Probably I will have a mutated Future 50 Taiwan with the TIIP. I want to bring the innovation part from the start-up ecosystem into the corporate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s both of those two programs under Deputy Minister Kung?" }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I’m not quite sure of TIIP, because we’re already direct to just General Liu. I know the Deputy Minister, Mr. Kung, is charged for the start-up ecosystem, as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Asia SB is his idea." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It makes all the sense if all of you work with Kung, and then of course Minister Tseng, to make sure that there’s a coherent message. That’s what we care the most about. We really don’t want separate messages. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes. That’s why I brought them. Actually, the private word I need to say is that I didn’t report to anyone or I’m afraid that we don’t have the very free talk. Probably, the reference I need to prepare one month or two months ago, and probably the original one is not I want to share right now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s good. We are now realigning all the science and technology budgets. They have to make sense on the whole Ministry of Economy level instead of just separate projects from each bureau. I think the expert review board need all the help to make connections with people who have already done integrations of the angel seed, series A, B stages, so that the message stays coherent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think each bureau individual is doing a great job. We just want to make sure the message carries into the next stage." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "If you break the life cycle you get stuck with..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "I’ve seen some examples where there’s great being done, Eastern European examples, up to angel seed finance, and then they’re completely missing the elements behind. Then you get this kind of brain drain. People who are really talented all go off to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At least they will set up offshore business units." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yes, it’s directly off to Berlin or London." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not like they physically move. They don’t physically move, but they disappear from the radar. That’s what happens, actually a lot in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the kind of thing we’re trying..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "You possibly don’t want somebody who has been nurtured and fostered here then to relocate to the Valley. That’s maybe not what you..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK, if they bring people back like AI Labs, like Ethan, that we work on people like him. What I’m talking about mostly is the people who become Cayman Island companies. They become OBUs. They receive foreign investment, which is great, but then they don’t participate back to the seed-level people who could actually benefit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, they then engage with a different sort of people, even though they’re physically in Taiwan. I think that’s the main problem she’s spotting now also." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Yes, that’s right. Our open house event was a very good example for the small township revitalization I want to show them. This is a very different way for the innovation in Taipei City. I try to show the real ecosystem looks like." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "This morning, we go to the NanKang Incubation Center so they can see a lot of our support for the biotechnology part, because it is part of our strengths." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t worry about the biomed part [laughs] or the revitalization. They’re in very, very capable hands. Deputy Commissioner Tseng Shu-cheng is a top-notch expert on regional revitalization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I also want to share, if you haven’t seen this already, we are changing our messaging. It used to be that every ministry have their own website on their programs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, BioTaiwan is just bio.taiwan.gov.tw. If you want to look at our AI strategy, then it’s just ai.taiwan.gov.tw. It’s very easy to remember now. Still it’s, of course, updated by individual ministries, but we make sure that the messages cohere into each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s AI Taiwan. There’s CI Taiwan for collective intelligence. There’s social innovation, SI Taiwan, and there’s SmartTaiwan and BioTaiwan. We talked about Start-upTaiwan for two years now, [laughs] but we need to get a message right before we can put something like that out." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Particularly when you want to promote Taiwan abroad, then they want simple and clear. When you look at London from our perspective, it is such a variety." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It’s hard to navigate the system." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "We’re not so good at combining that into one message. Lots of foreign corporations coming to us saying, \"We would love to participate in particularly the London ecosystem. To be fair, we’re really unsure where to go.\" At least where they recognize us, it’s somebody who can take them by the hand, a sign post, \"That’s where you need to be.\"" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "They needed this kind of umbrella or this point of contact that really is capable of pointing them in the right direction, because the variety is so enormous. That’s certainly helping with clarity. That’s great, cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything else you would like to..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Just one to two, and inform you a little bit about why are we here, spreading ecosystem relationships..." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Because it’s a very successful story related to digital economy, and because you’re all digital ministers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m actually the digital ministry." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "I think that is actually leading to have some sharing with you. It must be very interesting and helpful for both sides." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "From our perspective, can we help scaling? Yes, we have got the experience. We would love to do that. We want to have a closer relationship with such a sophisticated tech environment as Taiwan. We would not do that Future 50 or other scaling activities in an environment that’s not so developed. We would be really proud if we would have a stronger collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I visited the GDS and also, of course, Nesta, the DIT, and the other folks, when I talk about AI ethics, which is one of the main focus I’m working on right now, I think we have very similar ethical standards, which is not entirely regulation or conservative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Rather, in a way that balances the social needs and the innovator’s needs, but with a very strong focus on the basic human right that carries into the digital area. I think that is one of those common languages that we can talk about. We can’t say that for many other countries. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Particularly in the realm of AI, I think there’s a lot of bilateral collaborations that we should do, just like when we do very much the same thing with NSTAC with New Zealand or with the French Tech, now French Tech for Good. Maybe I should convince them to say missions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think such bilaterals are very strong, and it’s much more substantial." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "It’s great that we’re having these conversations, because a key concern at the moment is the AI ethics. The more we can talk to each other, hopefully we can come a common way of doing it." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah, but also the bilateral element is really interesting. If you take that to a bigger context, say the EU, the UN, it’s possibly going to be a 10-year process of deliberation. By the time, AI will have had..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People will be like, \"You know, we don’t even have a Internet exchange point. Why are you talking with us about these things?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It makes sense that we’re sophisticate on the same level." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Yeah, absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Great." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Thank you so, so much for your time." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Yeah, for making time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Feel free to email me directly. There’s no need to go through secretaries or..." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Much appreciated." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Thank you so much. Would be OK if we could have a picture with you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can take several." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "There’s a story behind it, right?" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We send in daily updates to our colleagues." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Personal channel for the job. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have to..." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Oh, no, don’t hurry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "SDG pin. Look, it is very important." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "We have a Slack channel, but everyone puts their daily updates on..." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s not enormous. It’s not a government department, but we have 70 people, and we want to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Are you engaged with the Wanting Gov people, which is this mid-level public service for innovation?" }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Not really." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Unless Gerard is, our CEO." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called Wanting Gov." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Can you get someone to take a picture?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re working with the GDS, Policy Lab, and so on, of course on the upper level. What we found particularly fruitful is just working with mid-level public servants and just work in a operation-level collaboration. We can then really share new code in programming, regulation, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Please let us know if you’re visiting on a official or unofficial mission again. We’d love to show you around a bit, possibly also introduce some entrepreneurs that could substantiate what we presented." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Especially around if you’re very interested in the AI and ethics, that discussion. We can introduce you to some of the people that are really talking very much in this space, as well. I’d be happy to do an intro..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "...around that." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It’s really interesting, because we are just starting to shape this dialogue. It hasn’t really happened. There’s about 500 pages of government policy already written." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. I’m part of this called the Global Council of Extended Intelligence, which is a Joi Ito and IEEE thing, and also all the GDPR and the usual suspects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We write, for example, recommendations for your consultation about the right to data agency of minors, of people who are young, which are particular susceptible to manufacturer addiction, for lack of a better term. It’s perhaps the best term. When we talk about AI, it’s toys and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Apart from participating on these consultations, I would greatly also benefit from the thinkers who are developing their own lines of thinking. In open consultations, we see the status quo, we see what’s going on the next year. I would very much appreciate engaging with people." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "These entrepreneurs possibly have a vision from today and five years..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They will want to bring it into existence, good or not. [laughs] Then I would really appreciate talking to these people." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Absolutely. Happy to do an intro. More of like the futurists..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "...that practices entrepreneurship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. I talked, for example, with Vitalik Buterin. When he was visited Taiwan, we had a very long discussion and so on. I wouldn’t say Vitalik is \"just a futurist.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He has a very strong opinion on how the world and civilization is going. He’s working really hard to actually make that happen." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "...but his team, his number two or three. I never met Vitalik personally, but his number two, five years ago. He just portrayed a world of, \"We want to bring the world where we put the lawyers out of business, the notaries out of business.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "With crude language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "It very much described what they are — with smart contracts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "In two years’ time they really have..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Like this kind of acting futurists. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "OK, fine. Yeah, I understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Stephan Kuester", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Parveen Dhanda", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Wallis Liu", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "今天是g0v的雙年會的大會，其實主題是開放，今天這個採訪是要回顧一下這兩年，其實您是從開放的系統來參與政府的運作，是不是比較一下兩年前跟兩年後，大概差別在哪裡？是不是可以為我們先作一個開場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們記得兩年前在我入閣的時候，當時有一個機緣，當時在推所謂的「亞洲矽谷」的政策，我們這一些待過矽谷的人都對這個名字很不滿意，雖然不滿意，覺得臺灣不可能山寨或者是抄襲等等，因為這個是競選政見，變得在溝通上有很大的落差，所以以至於所謂「5＋2」產業創新裡面第一個，也就是有一點需要重新設定的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這個就反映了臺灣長期以來可能是比較屬於硬體、製造、代工、做得非常好、非常準時，品質良率非常高的文化，在聽到物聯網的時候，想到腦裡的狀況，跟我們這待過矽谷、對矽谷相當瞭解的，想到的是怎麼樣能夠快速反映、怎麼樣讓人的體驗變好、甚至有人會說是破壞式的創新等等，想到的時候是想到另外一套完全不同的東西，這個是屬於打破現有產業格局的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，當時在這一種協調會議裡面，因為我有被邀請去參加，真的好像拔河一樣，大家覺得政府好像會顧此失彼的感覺，所以兩年前我的第一個具體空間，也就是我後來把亞洲跟矽谷中間加了一個點（「亞洲‧矽谷」），並不是亞洲要到矽谷，或者是矽谷到亞洲。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "那個點是你加的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，是我加的，這兩方有一個共通的，也就是讓人的體驗、生活更好，也就是連結，那這個是雙方都可以接受的共通價值，所以「亞洲‧矽谷」，那個點就唸成「連結」，就解決了心理上的困難。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像你很喜歡金城武，如果有人說他是桃園金城武，你就覺得不是很高興，因為覺得冒用金城武的名號。但是如果是「桃園連結金城武」，並不是桃園都是金城武或者是金城武搬到桃園，要多一點空間，因此對話的空間就打開了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "兩年前大家都有一種很像產業發展的政策，一定要政府來主導，而政府做的方向，其他人不用擔心，所以一定很像要拔河一樣，要拔到自己有利的位置。但是我們現在退一步，並不是什麼都要政府組織、仲裁來決定，還有營造一些空間，在這一個空間的各方利益關係人，一直問彼此兩個問題，第一個是我們的立場不同，也就是產業立場不一樣，有沒有一些共同價值？政府確立這一些共同價值之後，有沒有可以提出一些新的方法，然後去照顧這一些價值，讓每個人都覺得雖不滿意、但可接受，也就是往前走，也就是確認共同價值，然後經由共同價值來做創新，這個是所謂「協作」式的治理方法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個回應你的問題，我們在開放社群裡面，有網路以來四十幾年的經驗，大概就是凝聚出所謂的「協作式治理」的一套精神，所以我們兩年前，我想事務官們對這個精神是非常不熟悉的，聽到是會害怕的，覺得要跟陌生人聊，我很專業，他很不專業的事情，這樣真的對嗎？但是兩年後的今天，你去中央部會說要開協作會議，或者是有五千人連署要進行討論，他們會覺得很容易，也就是找機關開放政府聯絡人、規劃一套程序，大家有信心不會爆炸，一定可以收斂出一些共同的價值來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "重點是大家對於開放協作的心態，從兩年前的恐懼、不確定，到現在這就是正常生活的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "像跟您相關的資料裡面，以前我們的習慣對一千萬人說話，現在是跟一千萬人的聆聽或者是彼此的互動，可不可以從您這邊來給我們一個定義，現在這一種「協作式治理」或者是「政治參與」，這個是什麼意思？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好啊！非常簡單。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實如果用一句話來講的話，議程的設定就是要討論什麼事情的這個權力從只有政府擁有，變成大眾一起擁有，就是這樣子，全部就是這樣子，要一開始、哪一些事情是重要、值得討論的這個權利，應該是所有人都有，但是要做這一件事，政府必須要相信人民，就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "您在入閣之前，是不是「vTaiwan」跟g0v是你們在實踐這一種協作式公共參與最主要的兩個案例？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "g0v是一個社群，「vTaiwan」是g0v的一個計畫、專案，現在「vTaiwan」還是每個禮拜三晚上大家一起吃晚餐，還是非常地活躍，場地就是在空總的社會創新實驗中心。我每個禮拜三都是去那邊，我主要的功能是幫忙訂Pizza，如果他們需要call部會的人，部會的人會到，大概就是我的功能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這其實是我的辦公室（如圖），我禮拜三雖然晚上是「vTaiwan」（時間），但是從早上10點開始，任何人都可以來找我，所以只要他願意，我們的討論被放在網路上，就是我的office hour。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "不是只有一個小時？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從早上10點到晚上10點，十二個小時，我每個禮拜三都待在這裡。並不是只有g0v的社群可以來找我，並不是這樣子，而是禮拜三一整天都在這裡，當然好處是空總離我的宿舍走路其實大概8分鐘，就是走路上班、走路下班。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "所以在入閣之前，這一種協作式的，您實踐了多長的時間？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己接觸到的網路治理精神是1994年，我開始比較參與一些早期網路標準制定工作的話，可能是1996、1997年，全面投入是1999年。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "1994年是什麼事？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "1994年的時候，當時是網際網路才剛在臺灣開始，當然發明了瀏覽器，也發明了所謂的「www」。當時有一個叫做「古騰堡計畫」，就是很有名的計畫，把所有在公眾領域的書籍全部都打字放在網路上，等於是免費教學的資源，所有經典的原著都可以在這上面看得到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個也是1994年的計畫，「arxiv」就是把各個社群po到學術期刊之前的那一份版本，等於還在同儕審閱的時候，就先放到網路上，給整個網路審閱，並不是只有給期刊的三個專家審閱，這個是另外一個我當時獲益良多的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除此之外，「www」這一件事本身在當時有一個叫做「Netscape」的公司，這一家公司花了很多時間試著跟社群一起去決定瀏覽器的未來，當然後來到1998年的時候，轉型成一個非營利組織，叫做「Mozilla」，那一個組織後來推出「Firefox」之類的，後來變成一家社會企業，所以這整個過程是我們從1994年、1995年倡導所謂的「軟體自由」，到1997年、1998年提出一個新的概念叫做「開放源碼」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "基本上就是把當年這一種人權的主張，變成像大公司如「Netscape」也可以用這一種方式來增加它的產出，讓它的使用者變成共同創作者，一起做出一個更好的瀏覽器，就是像「Firefo」，但還是很賺錢，到今天還是一年賺幾百億，因為這樣的關係，所以就是我們早期社會企業很好的案例，所以我自己大概就是從那個時候做。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "您自己開始比較多的參與治理？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是網路的專案。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "可以舉一個例子嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以舉很多例子。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "最開始是什麼樣的參與？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像改一個系統，我當時是去改一個叫做「LPMud」，當時我記得一個叫做「東方故事2」或的一個mud，站長叫做Annihilator……他等於是帶著我去改變多人線上遊戲的世界裡面一些規則，因為我本來就會寫程式，但是其實在這一種線上世界裡面，你隨便改一個東西就會影響到大家，所以其實我們現在對臉書或者這一些討論或者是爭議，在當時其實都已經Mud社群已經有過了，我當時應該是1993年開始改，大概到1994年、1995年自己設計比較新的互動空間，當然都是從BBS開始，因為當時是以文字為主。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "到1995年第一次創業之後，才開始進行線上大規模的，好比像競標、拍賣的社群，當時叫做「酷必得」社群，那個是1996年開始發想的社群。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "我們看到在進入政府之後，我們的理解是，你希望用數位系統來輔助公務系統，像我看一些資料是公司法修正有一些參與，在這一些法規的修正裡面，您怎麼看及對我們的影響？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次新公司法我們也是透過「vTaiwan」的程序，對裡面我們覺得對數位比較有關的部分去進行討論，好比像公司的英文名稱，這個是長期懸而未決的問題，後來我們討論出任何公司都可以，就很像英文護照的別名來取英文名稱。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個是有些公司的目的不只是賺錢，同時要照顧到所謂的「三重底線」：要賺錢、照顧環境及社會價值，但是原本第一條就說公司以營利為目的，所以不是很確定這樣的公司是不是可以存在。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "不是給利益相關？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不只是股東的。你這樣定義非常好，如果一個公司覺得要對利益關係方負責，而不只是對股東負責，只是股東是其中一個利益關係方的概念寫在章程裡面，本來的股東可以拿著公司法第1條去問為什麼花這麼多的時間在環境、社會價值，為什麼不全部發展經濟價值？所以我們在經過多方利益關係人討論之後，我們最後決定只要這一家公司在章程裡面明定，不管配比是什麼，甚至投資我100萬，就只拿100萬，101萬開始就要繼續做公司的事業。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "這個新修法是在第1條裡面加善盡義務。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第393條有章程自願揭露。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "這個意見是從網路這邊？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，從這裡面結合來的，真的非常有多方利益關係人的精神，並不是政府舉辦的會議，也看到民間社群自己為了這個提議談了很多，像余宛如委員也自己開這樣的討論會，我們看這個的話，我們就可以看到這個是叫做「政策履歷」的東西，也就是誰開了焦點座談會、誰哪裡的諮詢會議、議程是什麼，裡面哪一些利益關係方講了什麼，還有我們的主持人，當時是聖凱及社企流的以涵，就是做多方利益關係人的企業，像陳一強等等，大概都有來這一場，但是有一些事後覺得另外要討論或怎麼樣，我們就是透過一個問卷的方式去重新滾動，等於面對面討論過之後也有利益關係方，要回花蓮或者是台東，我們再去調查利益關係方的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們可以發現，這個有一點像普查，另外一個是把大家對什麼叫做「社會責任」、「社會使命」的東西，大家定義不清的這個部分，透過這個過程，大家就花了很多力氣，然後到最後變成是有一個共同意見，而這個共同意見是章程應該要充分地揭露，而且這個揭露之後，我們就是要按照公司自治的精神，我們可以看到確保機制、組織改變機制、用章程規定是百分之百的同意，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我其實對電腦不是很清楚，但是我對法律那邊深入比較多，這一次公司法修了之後，用這個方式是不是相當民粹？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "怎麼說？" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "大家都講公司治理，也就是股東權益比以前大很多，比如公司小股東的提案權放寬比較多？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來也有適度再限縮回來一點。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "最近在開研討會，童子賢就說以後如果一個股東會有五十個提案，不知道要怎麼開股東會，類似這一種問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實是這個問題，這是治理技術，就很像我們當時連署平台出來的時候，每個部會也說今天一個月就來三個案子，我到底要怎麼樣去跟1萬5,000人溝通，差不多是這樣的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "他舉一個例子滿有趣，他說今年選舉，因為把公投法的門檻下降了，他說一個選舉如果有五十個公投要怎麼投？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就投五十張票。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "像今年就有十張票，有人評估11月24日那一天，提到可能可以領到十四張票，跟以前是很大的改變，在國外可能是很平常。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對啊，還好吧。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我聽到這一些老闆，因為他是實際在經營公司的人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是會不習慣，這個是真的。這個就像我講兩年前事務官聽到連署平台、公共參與，完全是同一個反映，因為這樣要加班、風險會增加，也沒有credit，為什麼還要做這一件事，所以我進來就是透過數位技術，讓大家看到沒有適當設計的話，可以早一點下班，不會因為這樣加班，而且風險會減少，我們可以吸收風險，最重要的是事務官的credit會被看見，等於是透過這樣的方式去說服他們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實大家討論有幾點：第一，像各地方縣市都在，這比一個個回應四十通電話，這四十通講得還不一樣，這個其實比較耗力氣，並沒有比較省力氣。第二，如果我們現在把一千三百多個所有各部會都放在視覺化，而且放在平台上，大家最關心的不外乎是長照、食安等，這一些大家都關心的結果，承辦會從議員、媒體等等不斷收到各種回應，這一些回應都要一個個回，或者立委叫做「索資」，立委是非常花力氣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在已經有這樣的平台，像金門大橋，他每個月報，到底開了多少標案，施工、進度怎麼樣，還有算累積預算達成率，不用一通通電話講，一目了然，累積達成率不應該往下掉，但是還是往下掉了，所以有一些奇怪的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "雖然拼字不是很規範，但是就會問是不是有問題，承辦就可以來回廠商做不好、解約，他把廠商還我們，只要回一次，以後不用接電話，google就找到了。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "公司法大家都在討論，也就是洗錢防制的部分，最後還是沒有過？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後是去財政部介接資料。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "10％是大股東，沒有到最後。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該這樣講，他從財政部自動同步資料。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "應該是經濟部。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "經濟部是和報稅的資料（公司報稅股東名簿）自動介接，如果跟去年不一樣，你再報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都一樣的話，就好像公職人員財產申報一樣，我現在也是授權監察院，每一年去調銀行的資料，所以我就不用自己再做，但是如果有現金收入，超過一筆很大的現金收入，銀行沒有的話，我當然得填，所以現在的最終受益人是很類似的精神，不要增加微中小企業的負擔，但是讓大企業的洗錢防制上有一些訊息。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "您的意思是在公開跟有一個政策履歷，讓溝通可以減少很多不必要的成本，我們再回來看一下，意見政策形成，現在是從下到上凝聚，然後慢慢做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只有科層體系裡才有「從下到上」。政府和民間是「夥伴關係」。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "要討論什麼是透過大家來討論，最終一定有一些案子，雖然社群有討論，但是不一定會變成法規的改變。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "討論完不應該是政府做，說不定是民間自律聯盟，社企就是這樣子，大家會說章程揭露，然後用工商憑證，等於是電子簽署放在上面，到底怎麼樣算……像尤努斯型態、B corp跟各自都有標準，很多人都會想要push，就在公司法裡面拿一套進來，但是大家的共識是提供一個公開、揭露平台，你要經營一個符合標準的清單，你到外面去經營。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣的好處是，標準一直在改變，像聯合國永續發展目標，我們訂公司法的時候，大家也沒有那麼清楚要怎麼做社會價值管考，現在的目標訂下來了，就可以用永續發展的目標做管考，但是如果當時一定要寫在公司法裡面，就會錯過這個，也就是有時反而經過利益關係人充分討論之後，大家決定政府只做一小部分，或者乾脆不做。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "最後的政策還是要透過不斷討論什麼是該做的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "討論到一個程度是叫做「粗略共識」，大家會覺得這一件事大概是往這個方向，而這樣的情況下，每一個相關（部會）就可以各自做該做的，但是這裡的重點就像我剛剛所講的，是共同價值的這一件事，因為你如果不先確認共同價值的話，你很可能往左邊跑、他往那邊跑，繩子一拉都不知道往哪裡去，這個共同確認才是我們要做的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是當共同價值一確立，像我們當時去恆春，他們提了一個案子，也就是「空勤總隊設恆春機場」（「Join」平台的案子），為什麼空勤要到恆春機場？他們覺得離最近的一家大醫院，開車要九十分鐘，緊急醫療很不方便，因此他們希望直升機當救護車用，有八千多個人連署，內政部說沒有多的直升機，問國防部旁邊有軍營要不要用一下，交通部說會影響觀光，說衛福部直接開一家大醫院，這個是前瞻沒有核撥下來，所以沒有經費，因此在以前會這樣子，一個問題，大家沒有共同價值，就是找最熟的部會去提解決方案，到最後就互相抵銷，大家更不信任在地的醫護。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在有一個要點，事實上有兩個要點，其中一個部分是所謂「冰桶條款」，A說B主辦、B說C主辦、C說A主辦，一個跑不掉，大家都是主辦。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "這個是要點嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。一個是「公共政策網路參與實施要點」及「行政院及所屬各機關開放政府聯絡人實施要點」，我們現在是兩大要點。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "第一個是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "公共政策網路參與實際要點，也就是包含所有法規命令及法律草案，其實你要問兩年前跟現在還有一個最大的不同，也就是兩年前各個部會這一種法規的預告，丟到平台上討論是想丟才丟，所以每一個部會可能一個月丟一、兩案就差不多了，但是我們現在是：「沒有，每一個法規命令在通過前六十天就是要丟上來。」所以是每一個部會的每一個法規，你如果按「眾開講」，好比像法令預告，而這一個法令預告就可以看到包含送立法院跟自己內部的，因此這一秒鐘正在有212個案子。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "以前就抱怨公告他們沒有人知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "找人翻譯，然後就已經實施了，因為只要7天或者14天。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "現在是六十天？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，現在是六十天。當時林全院長在推這個的時候，我來的時候，他已經確定要改六十天了，但是我的貢獻是，以前在公報網打電話給承辦人，那時有一個電話要公告，現在不是，而是一定要公開討論，公開討論就要公開回應，因此您剛剛提到公司法第22條資料申報管理辦法，這上面是大家最care的，您看有一百七則評論。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "就打「join.gov.tw」就進來了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "很多說法令過了沒有回應，因此他可以放上來討論？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這個是很好的地方，如果是單獨打給承辦，這樣子承辦的理解到一個程度，不影響往上報。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "也許一個禮拜就在開會？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，就是過七天或者是十四天，也就是過預告期，然後就沒了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，現在在上面都有專業的版主，像有經濟部商業司版主，會說「謝謝你來留言」，這裡有一個事實性的澄清，不需要簽核就可以來回應。因此，大家可以知道我的意見有被收進來，因為這個還沒有預告完，到最後六十天結束，現在剩下四個小時，就有一個綜整回應，我們在那邊明文要求。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "所以過了四個小時就拿掉嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就會跑到歷史區，現在是一千七百個。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "等於公告形成共識就會開始？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。所以像最多的是就服法、人工生殖及民航法，這個是非常多人關心的。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "這一些公告都是在「眾開講」？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "法務部有一個全國法規網站。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個是結束、定案的，我們這個是法案預告。像這一個是通傳會的業餘無線電管理辦法超多人回應，到最後就是列一個表，也就是十一點至十四點，把類似的集中在一起，看右欄等於是逐點回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣的好處是，這個上路時，民間就知道如何配合或者是政府如何配合民間，而不是看著法律在那邊猜。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "也就是一切都是透明的，有利益相關的，有違反就放在上面，該列管機關如何處理也會放在上面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每一個部會都會有自己的專用詞，NCC的上下都瞭解，但是民間不一定瞭解，因此就會問說到底有沒有這個定義，也就是「業餘無線電」之類的，因此這樣子就會特別去解釋包含網際網路在內。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "同樣的，他只要解釋一次，大家以後google都找得到。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "就是形成共識與凝聚？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，後面都要加「NCC感謝您」，但看起來都有實質回覆。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "已經回答過的問題就不用再回答？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "我們再討論另外一個部分，也就是PO的價值或者是做什麼，不然我們經濟部會問說跟公聽會有什麼不一樣，也就是新的制度有沒有什麼不同？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我今天在立法院一面備詢的時候，一面才把PO制度解釋的漫畫丟到網路上，這個是客家話的版本，我們同時丟了台語、英語、日文跟中文（以及阿美語），漫畫裡面其實講到我們去年5月時，有人覺得報稅軟體非常難用，財政部當時有一句「你覺得Mac很難用就找朋友借Windows」，這一句話他們很生氣，就說「報稅軟體難用到爆炸」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "PO的特色是什麼？左下角這一位是財政部的PO，可以在這一種事情發生的時候，你看國會聯絡人是一有立委質詢就趕快去解釋，媒體聯絡人是一旦發生新的社會問題就趕快解釋，而這一種忽然社會上發生的，既不是立委、也不是媒體，這一種人怎麼辦？因此這個時候PO的角色是先去找業管單位，先告訴他說你真的做得不夠好，人家說是有道理的，不要急著說這個是一件壞事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來要怎麼解決？也就是把本來的「user」把法令設計完再用，我們提到最上面，我們叫做「會吵的不是有糖吃」，而是「進廚房」，所有「Join」平台上吵的人就自動收到上面，兩個禮拜之後說會開會，有空就過來，所以一夕之間風向會轉變，三十六個小時之前是財政部下台或者是關貿怎麼樣，是非常負能量，但是一旦放了這個邀請之後就開始反轉，只剩兩成的人說財政部長要下台，這個是差很多的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為漫畫看不清楚，這個是我們的PO，另外這個也是我們的提案人。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "這個是什麼案例？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是剛才那一個案子，網友的意見絕對不會刪除，他說「字爆多」就是「字爆多」，從宣導到網路上所有的留言就整理成這樣一張圖。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "我是學軟體的，是不是軟體開發流程在做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實，這個是軟體設計開發服務的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "這個服務流程是什麼結構？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "服務流程開始前、使用中、行動、需求及感受。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "這個表在網路上看得到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "顏色有意義嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，黃色是「感受」、紅色是「碰到的困難」、綠色是「具體的建議」、橘色是「我們現有的資源」。但是這裡我想特別提的是，去年報稅軟體有一個特色，報完之後會跳出財政部的娃娃說「感謝你對國家的貢獻」，也就是想要你報完稅之後心情好一點，但是有一位網友提醒我們是「想到報稅心情就不好」，根本不要說流程裡面處處讓我心情好，就把這個流程縮短，然後就功德無量了，因此說很專業的文字、絢爛的介面，想要使用者趕快用完就是本末倒置。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果用瀑布式的流程，其實每一關都是專業，也就是使用者想要趕快報完稅，因此我們一共開了五場協作的工作坊，右下角是罵得最兇，也就是最專業，左上角是五區的同仁，左下角是關貿的同仁，上面是開放政府聯絡人，等於是內部串接跟外部串接的橋梁及專業的引導師，我們把去年很醜的這個變成今年很漂亮的這個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "滿意度據說有96％，還有4％，瞭解到他們的意見也會進入明年的改善，另外一個重點是右邊這個要砸錢，一定做得出來，但這個東西的預算是負的，因為有來的人提出說用雲端伺服器的系統，不用全部開在那邊，報稅其實是兩個流量最高的，也就是一開始跟最後，所以如果是用彈性、雲端機器的話，其實中間有多少需求就開多少機器就可以了，因此其實幫財政部省很多錢，比起租幾台專門的機器去應付最大的流量，其實只有前兩天跟後兩天，所以省了很多錢，節省錢的「0」我們拿來辦工作坊，這個是很少數的所有人都有賺，沒有任何人被犧牲的結果，當然協作不可能全部都這麼完美。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "協作有很多取捨。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "可以問一下在政府協作經驗當中的困難是什麼？是不是可以從實際單位當中，因為我們知道政府單位看到這個應該很不習慣吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "或者是我們總體來看，您覺得推動協作是要克服困難嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們最不習慣是，我要他們叫我唐鳳，不要叫我政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "年資越大的要花很久才習慣：我真的不是他們的長官，我就是幫助他們討論。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "可是政府間要協調會不會很困難？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會，很簡單。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "為什麼呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我進來協調的第一個案子，當時還沒有開放政府聯絡人的時候，叫做「電子競技案」，這個案子很有名的是花了十年以上的時間，很像某一次我們的選手得到世界冠軍，就已經開始要讓電競選手享有運動需求的待遇或者是替代役、學校專門課程納入產業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個案子從接下來的時候，其實好像已經快要十年了，以前甚至有行政院長親自下來協調，一出會議室的情況，這個是非常困難的題目，但是這個困難的題目是因為像我剛剛所講的，你如果去問文化部，文化部會說你說是運動，那就是體育署的事情，體育說沒有動到身體，所以應該是經濟部的事情，經濟部說管的是硬體，也就是管的是球場，所以運動員怎麼會歸他們管，因此這個形狀已經很久了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們協調的方式是，我們從10月也就是入閣的那個月接到，一直到解決掉這個問題，只花了三個月。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "怎麼樣協調？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們公聽會同樣有多方利益關係人實際進來，進來的時候，這個公聽會的每個人都可以講出他的心聲，接下來我就是把公聽會的逐字稿切成一些具體的點，我一個個問部會說你覺得怎麼樣，然後我們就發現有一些部會同意，有些部會覺得有一些前提條件要滿足，有一些部會就是在抵抗，所以第一次協調的時候，不是只是這一個結論，因為一般行政院的會議，像你的會議最後的產出就是這一段而已，但是我們不一樣，我們是裡面每一個人講的每一個字，也就是為什麼這樣想，全部都放出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是當然大家可以編輯十個工作天，所以裡面開玩笑的部分或者是聽起來很不專業的部分，都已經修成很專業了，這樣的好處是什麼？我這樣放出來之後，mobile01、PTT、Dcard跟巴哈姆特就開始找，也就是論述當中有沒有鬆動的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像有一位朋友在網路上留言，文化部就認定圍棋選手是選手，他們也可以服替代役，所以文化部並不是沒有辦過這一件事，因此第二次會議的時候，就把網友的意見，也就是把情緒性的部分抽掉，只留下很專業的部分帶到會議上來，我就說網友有跟我們講說圍棋選手本來就可以服替代役了，而且文化部也承認這個是運動，到底有什麼不一樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "文化部說那個是傳統文化之類的，這時我就會說：「網友說，現在圍棋練習比賽，九成都在網路上，圍棋現在也是AI下得比人家好。」你既然承認這一種電競，那就比照一下，所以役政的部分就變成文化部。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來是教育的部分，所以也要回到教育部，這個時候我們就發現教育部care的是不要叫「體育」，叫「運動」就可以了，因為「體育」有身體教育的意思，所以搞了半天是叫「運動」，不要叫「體育」，那個是OK的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有網友說十二年國教新課綱上路了，也就是開電競專班之類的，他們想一想也ok，他們要透過電競的專門技藝去吸引學生去學技術高中，吸引進來之後再教他開直播跟做媒體編制，吸引他進來，然後教他有用的東西，退役的電競選手也可以去別的地方教，因為教育部發現這個對他們施政有好處。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你說我中間做什麼，我什麼都沒有做，就是把網友專業的部分帶到會議上，然後再把事務官專業的部分帶到外面，這樣子三次就做完了。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "你覺得最難的案子是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有什麼困難的案子。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "有一些東西討論期很長，因為我看「vTaiwan」，也有很多案子是在討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是每一個階段都有一些我們可以做的事情，像「vTaiwan」案子當中，社群比較在意的是無人載具科技創新實驗條例，這個花滿久的意見徵集是2017年9月，但是最後送到立法院是今年5月，今年年底應該會通過，所以你說很久，也還好，是一年三個月，這個可能是最久的之一。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼花這麼久？主要的原因一樣，也就是到底誰是主管機關的問題。我們現在有一個特色，也就是專門沙盒的網站，你到這個網站上，現在已經有上百個案子，任何你覺得法規命令擋到你，你就說想要政府法規命令用另外一套方法做，而且有另外一個理由覺得對社會比較好，像無人載具是很好的例子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "又或者是現在有去銀行辦戶頭要雙證件，可不可以改成用手機的sim卡的認證，因為你當時去辦中華電信就已經給過雙證件了，所以可以用那個去開戶頭就可以了，挑戰這個的就在金融沙盒。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像有一些朋友自己有停車位，他想要裝擋的東西，想要用APP付他錢，就降下來，等於是分食共享，如果一天24小時這樣做就變成停車場了，但是後來經過協調，如果平均一個月下來，每一天不到8小時，這樣就不需要變成停車場，不需要付停車場的稅等等，所以這兩百多個案子不一定是法規修正，很多是有修正就好了，這樣的好處是，大家可以知道連法規命令都可以協作，並不是一定要找有利人士去關說，只要改了之後對社會怎麼樣比較好、講清楚，讓大家公開討論。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "地方政府可以這樣做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個團隊可以幫你媒介地方政府，像你要實驗無人船，就不會幫你找南投的，可能會幫你找愛河的。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "你剛剛講「vTaiwan」或者是sandbox，我可以在「Join」上面找到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實這個是不同的機制，意思其實是不一樣的，「Join」是全國性的，也就是所有的法規、budget跟全國性的提案，全國性是你不需要湊到五千人，只要一個人就可以了，也就是不同的入庫。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "外面的民眾怎麼會知道？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你提的這個問題很好。其實「vTaiwan」有分流到「Join」，但我同意這三個網站應該要彼此串接。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我覺得你這個真的不錯，像剛剛委員講的那一句話，我們生活有很多覺得不平，也就是找有利人士，也就是拜託議員去講，你只是要財政部或者是哪一個部會改一個規定而已。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "就像你剛剛所講的，財政部就來課你的稅來做停車場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每一天才三、四個小時。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我覺得例子很不錯，也就是很困擾的事情，我們都想要找立委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實，「Join」跟這個應該要加一個超連結，我們回去討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前知名度沒有那麼高的主要原因是，像平台經濟，也就是1月法規才上路，金融沙盒4月才上路，無人載具應該是12月，NCC的實驗頻譜也是這個月，所以這一些相關的法規配套確實是今年才做完。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "所以一個人申請就主張認為可以改規則？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，但是必須要公開討論，我們是用你公開討論來換我們幫你協調，因為你找立委、議員，他其實不一定公開討論。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "所以像「Join」是最大的，你應該有其他的連結，比如可以到sandbox或者是到「vTaiwan」去，又或者是到「Join」裡面去。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "這個是非常好的，因為有很多網站，所以「vTaiwan」跟「Join」跟sandbox是三個主要的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「vTaiwan」不是政府主導，「Join」是政府主導，sandbox是介於這兩個中間。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "其實sandbox跟一般人的關係比較密切，因為「Join」是專家學者覺得，sandbox是停車問題要解決，你不解決就去找有力人士來弄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有力人士的問題是拔河，對方也可以找有力人士，就會拖很久。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "一般生活上都是公開的事情，有一些很小的事情會變得很大，如果政府可以解決掉，營運就降低了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們可以說「會吵的進廚房」，你得提一個比較好的版本，所以我們等於是讓大家去幫忙主管機關想怎麼樣比較好，所以我們可以看到滿多件的，共有123件，都是很小的，就像你這邊所講的，但是對每一個可能都是很重要。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "像剛剛講的例子，如果不是在這邊解決，要叫財政部改，比登天還難，不容易啊！因為他說給你就等於圖利他了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有錯。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "但是你這樣說確實不合理，因此就改了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "圖的是公共利益，那就不叫圖利。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "所有的記錄是公開的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，所以沒有圖利的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "這個已經改變了嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們剛剛講的是序號「23」。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "規範已經改掉了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "已經回函了，都會有釐清公告。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "釐清公告就會即使生效。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像心理諮商師是實驗性質，要找精神科醫師要提一個實驗計畫，然後就特別做遠距醫療，所以不一定是全開，回應是限制時間、限制地點或怎麼樣來測測看，這個也是一種回應方法。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "跟剛剛的「Join」不一樣，這個是施行細則層面的問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實最大的不同是正當性的來源，「Join」平台正當性的來源是「Join」公共政策法規參與的要點，他講的是全面性的，也就是所有的預算、所有的法規預告，以及所有湊到五千人的連署案，所以這一些正當性都是普遍的，也就是大多數的人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以「Join」的輻射範圍很廣，不一定要跟法規有關係，像要我們把空勤總隊派到那邊，那個一點關係都沒有，那個是國家資源的配置，但是等於是正當性也就是五千人很在意醫療資源，但是這邊是很限縮的，必須要是你對特定法律或者是法規，你想要修改，而且你已經知道不一定是要到哪一條，但是至少知道目前被擋到是哪一個主管部會。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "就是把狀況講出來應該知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "不知道是歸哪一個單位管就會有幫忙協調？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有專線。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "各部會都有？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是必須要有法規的創新。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我跑政府機關很久了，像有各部會的局長，通常都沒有人在寫，為什麼這個有人願意來寫？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為有用。最主要是因為如果你是寫部長信箱，他是一對一的，意思是同一個題目，很可能接到四十封，他根本沒有時間處理這四十封，他回了一封，下一封沒有人知道已經回過了，所以這個時間已經被切成很細，這個是公開的，因此只要解決一次就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "大家都看得到？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，所以我們是拿這個去說服承辦，也就是一個禮拜撥一天來，就像我的office hour一樣，金管會願意派一個人，一個禮拜固定一天，也就是專門接受sandbox這邊，甚至願意面對面去見這樣的提案人，你寫部長信箱，沒有辦法把脈絡寫得很清楚，並不是大家文字表達能力都很好，但是願意面對面釐清，這樣很好。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "你們是用公開換取嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "公開的效果很大嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，因為這個是圖利跟公共利益的差別 ，為什麼能夠說服事務官？像從我入閣到現在，已經有這麼多的逐字稿，幾百個，為什麼能夠說服所有人讓我把他們來的，不管是office hour是個人的，又或者是巡迴的會議，又或者是所有的這一些部分、這一些協作會議去在做決定以前就公開，就是因為這樣子大家都可以知道即使一開始只是這一些人的提案，看到了有不同意見的人，他還是有充足的意見去發表，各部會這邊就比較放心，不會覺得正在圖利這個房間的二十個人，就知道外面兩千萬人看到之後還是可以繼續來找他，這個對公務員差很多，因為大家都非常怕圖利。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "我再追問一下sandbox。回函只是說明哪一些法規不同，然後再告訴你一次或者是有改變的可能性，因為叫「sandbox」，如果有改變的可能性，像大家開公聽會再凝聚一次？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是，sandbox的可能性是確實有可能，只是解釋不清，而是幫你解釋清楚就沒事了，但是有可能是提出來真的違法，這個時候就會協調地方政府或者是這幾個主管機關，就違法一年看看會不會發生什麼事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像金融沙盒，我剛剛講手機驗證，也就是凱基跟中華電信，他們現在正在違法，金管會說給你一個deal，你在接下來的一年裡面，你可以有四千個客戶是用這一種手機的認證，而且甚至還不需要有信用紀錄，他在聯徵是空的，因為是年輕人，所以是無所謂，他是用之前中華電信電信費繳的帳單，如果每個月繳1,000多元或怎麼樣，都準時繳款，可能比每一個月499元的授信額度或百分比要高一些，演算法我也不知道，但是他是這樣算的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個其實跟本來風險管理規則是完全不一樣的邏輯，他聯徵的名義是空的，但是他說「我要違法」，但是並不是要做壞事， 而是「我覺得這個對社會有好處，要實現金融普惠」，也就是這一些年輕人也許需要借貸、做一些金融東西，他們是最需要的，因為以前沒有辦法做，讓本來不能接受金融服務的人變成可以接受金融服務，因此他說折回價值，金管會也同意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來在這一年裡面，這幾千個人裡面只要有五個人發現這個演算法判斷是錯的，也就是沒有真的做到身分認證，事實上是他的親朋好友借他的手機帳號、門號，假設這個新的做法有問題，實驗就終止，然後我們就感謝大家幫我們付學費，但是如果這一年下來判斷都很準確，授信額度也沒有問題，這樣子風險管理規則就會因為這個實驗而改變，就用那個版本的法律、法規命令來代替本來版本的命令。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然如果過了一年，他們覺得實驗還可以擴大、延長，大家再算一下風險係數，那也有可能再延長一年，但最後就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "怎麼覺得要怎麼樣做實驗？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "會有一個多方利益關係人的評議會。最大的差別是主管機關，因為現在是金融的，當然金管會要同意，當然現在要做無人載具，為何當時協調這麼久？因為交通部不是很願意去擔任這一種角色，他有一個理由，因為開一開飛起來的，或者是自己在河裡走一走就上路的，然後沒有方向盤的，其實交通部不知道要怎麼管，他們不是很適合同時擔任管制或評議的角色，所以後來評議變成經濟部，現在是經濟部技術處看了你的沙盒實驗，覺得應該有公共利益，技術上應該也可行，他說在這個區域就違法一年看看。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "但是跟委員報告，金融的部分有法律專業，也就是金融沙盒條例，他就排除掉訊息，如果其他項目是不是也都要有一個沙盒條例？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該是說像無人載具也是，希望年底會通過。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "所以每一年都要一個？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "平台經濟是要點層級。你要用法律才可以排除法律，但是如果只是挑戰要點，要點就可以排除要點。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "挑戰要點就可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以用要點挑戰要點。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "因為金融監理沙盒會牽扯到刑法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前已經有四個了。就是這三個：「平台經濟法規調適原則」，那個是一個要點；金融沙盒是一部法律；無人載具沙盒是一部法律，NCC的實驗頻譜是辦法，但是是架在數位通訊傳播法及未來電信法上面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "數位通訊傳播法裡面還有多方利益關係人的機制，它會一直長，再往後，當然現在也有很多人在說，是不是醫師法這些東西也許可以往這個方向去想？這都還沒有確定，但基本上每一個高度規管的法律層級都會需要這種，但如果不是高度規管的，只是地方自治或者是要點，我們其實靠國發會的要點就解決了。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "是不是放在教育領域？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像遠距教育就是透過這個東西。教育領域大家最care的其實是遠距教學能不能用學分採計，以前教育部一直都是很抗拒，採計百分比非常低，那個是很舊的案子，事實上「vTaiwan」最早的案子之一，當時是透過「vTaiwan」的討論，到一個程度是教育部會研議，但是研議的學分採認的程度很低，但是現在因為遠距教育及數位國家方案出現，我們不斷在sandbox跟「Join」，一直都有人提遠距教育的案子，因此形成一個新的氣氛。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我覺得sandbox是可以突破目前的一些限制、傳統，我跑金融，金融的人都很保守，但是你如果每一個都這樣子，也就是立一個法，會破法律的安定性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為它的目的就像剛剛講的，是為了社會公益，然後他中間如果發現沒有社會公益，而時間就要終止，其目的其實是讓立法委員跟我們行政官員不用去管一些我們沒有第一手經驗的東西，這個才是真正的目的，不然大家都是看國外的報告，我們不知道實際上的情形，所以先跑個半年、一年看到，我們才知道如何處理。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "回到無人載具的實驗條例，像無人車或者是無人船去實驗，會是以什麼樣的形式來實驗？像無人車在這裡跑跑看嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是按照每個人自己提實驗計畫，所以舉例來講，這個是不用等沙盒，這個是在實驗創新中心，他的路權是行人的路權，撞到人也不會怎麼樣，無人車的好處是開放的，也就是要用符號表示情緒，只要找北科大的學生幫你改一改就可以了，好處是先讓大家習慣跟人工智慧一起相處是什麼感覺，所以這個是教育意義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然當條例通過之後，我們還是也會有教育意義的，很多無人車像國外的，第一步就是在沙盒，你在車測中心測，雖然可以獲得很多數據，但是離大家太遠，沒有人看得到，但是這個就是在高鐵旁邊，你沒事就逛動物園一樣，你去一下就看到今天正在模擬的狀況，他可能模擬很多機車的狀況，可能模擬遶境的狀況，他們會有各種模擬，你去那邊的行控中心就可以看到申請沙盒、技術處在評估的，也就是在這邊demo給大家看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來是去找最適合的地方，像無人船就是在愛河，也許是接駁用，像交通船不用等船長的時間，去媒合地方政府願意把自己的一塊空間開出來做實驗，這個是沙盒團隊最主要的工作，也就是提出很有價值的資訊之後，會幫你在全臺灣問在哪裡最適合來demo，然後就跟地方政府開始測。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "如果Uber想要在臺灣試的話？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，Uberair。它現在測的就是垂直起降，就是開一開就飛起來了，從一個大樓頂樓到另外一個頂樓，如果要這樣測的話，我們就會討論出怎麼樣是最適合的場域，可能一開始是在中間掉下來不會砸到人的地方，風險還是要做評估，這樣的好處是不需要兩邊放話，也就是大家實際測測看，然後就知道怎麼適合。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "在討論風險的狀況之下……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "才知道風險有多大。這裡面有很大的特色是實際進行社會創新的時候，我每兩週的週二就會跑去巡迴，所以左上角的照片是花蓮，上面是台東透過視訊去參加，但是我去的時候，十二個相關的部會都是在剛剛的社創中心，透過視訊去看到對面我在那個地方與大家進行討論，也有一點像立法院詢答一樣，也就是在地的朋友們一提問，台北的朋友就要接球跟回答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一回答之後，旁邊十一個部會都知道，就不會有各自為政的情況，因此之前有非常多，像沙盒有一個案子是社團法人是不是可以成立一個控股的子公司，以前都是大公司去設NPO，但是現在有一些社團法人，營運後發現有一些產品或者是服務可以賺錢，因此希望開一家公司，但是要控制這一家公司的經營權，是為了公益目的服務，所以是可以增資，而公司法並沒有說社團法人並沒有當發起人，因此理論上是可以的，但是沒有一個部會有這個責任敢擔。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個從十五年前吧！就已經有人在提，十年前大愛感恩科技想到一個很聰明的做法，也就是公司成立，然後就把股權捐過去，也就是百分之百，可是這樣子的問題並不是法人股東就能完全解決，因為這一家公司的章程，未來增資之後它的使命還是可能漂移掉，這還是沒有辦法說服所有人說，他的責信一定都是跟上面NPO是一樣的，所以後來就運用閉鎖型公司制度，設計出來一套讓法人擔任股東、利用特別股，你不管增資到多大都可以否決的機制。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "就是有否決權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這樣就解決了。這一家公司的公益報告跟責信同時公開，NPO的章程說「我可以開這家公司」，這家公司的章程說「我和這個NPO做相同的使命」，這樣就解決了。這裡面牽扯到衛福部、經濟部商業司等等，就像剛剛冰桶挑戰一樣，一開始聽這一位牧師講他的實際需求，所以就不用文來文往，一下子就知道實際的情況，那個也是協調三次就過了。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "也就是形成共識？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，社團法人過了之後，沙盒就來一個案子是財團法人可不可以？也做一樣的事情，沙盒就協調，因此就可以，也就是循剛剛的做法，所以這個是一條路。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "我進入關於科技的部分，我們的提問有提到，其實您的背景是有關於科技，是不是可以談一下你去矽谷的經驗？臺灣在科技上與矽谷合作的可能性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然現在臺灣AIT新的處長，是說臺灣在亞洲之於AI，就很像華爾街在美洲之於金融，臺灣今年變成AI就很像中樞的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然不只是微軟開1、200個人的AI center或者是IBM、Amazon、FB，大概都在臺灣做AI的研發。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為何突然今年變成AI大爆發？最主要的原因是，大家發現AI推進到現在，不能純粹只是在腦子裡面算，像下圍棋是因為它的世界很小，它可以靠純軟體來解決，但是你要走進社會，你要快速改變它的眼睛、耳朵這一些東西，快速地進行整合，而這個部分臺灣在硬體上的優勢是非常非常強的，甚至我們是可以把感知層面跟判斷的層面放在同一個晶片裡面，這個是AI chip，這些都是臺灣晶片設計的供應，忽然之間有發揮的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像剛剛無人三輪車是很好的例子，一下子就要判斷，你不能上傳到雲端，做完判斷再回來，已經來不及了，這時候你edge有非常多的訊號，你有視覺訊號、LiDAR訊號、聽覺訊號，可能視覺還分很多不同的深度攝影機，有一些你一下雨就模糊掉，有一些你經過旁邊很大聲就被蓋掉，有一些形狀不對，你就辨識不出來，所以每一個感測器都有其極限，這時你要如何把這一些感測器融合在一個晶片裡面，能夠濾掉明顯不對的，這是sensor fusion。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個sensor fusion的技術必須是有軟體的人才，加上資料訓練之後有一個想法，然後變成晶片，晶片如果測出來有問題，就要馬上給feedback，這個pipeline必須軟體、硬體跟感知器、資料層要整個想好才可以做得到，如果你是跨國公司，剛剛這四層是在不同的vendor做，一個可能在深圳做、一個在東京做、一個在Bangalore、一個在特拉維夫，這樣子就要花四十八小時才能完成，但如果在臺灣的話，你五分鐘就可以，這是差很多的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那時Google跟HTC策略結盟的時候，他們總經理有來，這個都有逐字稿，並不是矽谷文化來教育臺灣的硬體工程師，而是相互學習的，他們也要來學習這一種按照社會實際的需求，實際場地的狀況去搭配硬體設計的能力，並不是軟體空想就可以用的，AI必須要有一個身體，所以給他一個身體，而這個身體又要可以跟社會對話、互動，變成良好的社會功能跟創新，這個又要一個非常大的自由空間，甚至像沙盒的法律，所以這一些都要到位才可以做。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "法規、環境有了，就在創新的實踐上，把我們的技術做更好的運用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "實際上我們在創新上，因為我想請問的是，像跟Mozilla或者是微軟，想法已經更彈性了，有沒有其他實際的例子？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們剛剛講到遠距醫療、居家照護，臺灣確實這個是很大的需求，但是我們也發現到其實醫師問診的時候，提供一個人在聽你說話的溫度，但現在你是跟一個醫師的代理人問診，好比像LINE的機器人，第一個是我們很不習慣用文字的方式去描述，第二個是很多非語言訊息可能會流失，第三個是即使有手機的語音輸入好了，你現在要講得相當標準，才會把裡面的每一個判斷病名、歷程等等正確紀錄下來，不然可能你光改錯字的時間，就已經比你去診所還要久了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們跟微軟、Mozilla合作的一部分，就是大家用最自然的方式，也就是講一講是夾雜一些台語、客語、英語，醫生在做診斷的時候，大部分專業的（文字）都是英文術語或者是拉丁文，而且自己會加一些台語等等，在這一個過程中，如果強迫每一個人都必須要用非常標準的發音，或者是拼字很正確，這樣子同樣的道理，大家都要加班，所以我們現在試著能不能讓每一個人在所有臺灣各個角落都可以貢獻出他的聲音，他用什麼腔調唸就是最自然的腔調唸。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這個叫做「common voice」用機器學習去訓練，各種聲音都可以聽得懂，而且在這一個過程中，我們就可以知道每一個不同的腔調，你要捐你的聲音或者是協助驗證，像我現在按「聆聽」，（如果聲音跟文字是對的話）你就可以按「是」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個就跟我們以前在做Siri，我以前就跟蘋果合作，就是找很好的聲優去錄，變成講話要跟他們像才得聽得懂，但是我們現在這樣的錄法，每個人都是用很自然的聲音，這樣訓練出來的機器人就會變成是不管用什麼腔調講就聽得懂。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "Mozilla是社會企業？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "然後可以聚集大家不同的聲音？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "機器可以聽到不同腔調。中國這麼多不同的省怎麼聽得懂？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在香港（粵語）等各個地方都有，也就是開放源碼的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在想跟Mozilla合作的其中一部分是原住民族語言，像原住民族語言裡面，像阿美很強、很願意錄這樣的東西，我們年底會有一個新的法案通過，叫做「國家語言發展法」，那個法案很特別。以前我們在學校教鄉土語言、本土語言或者是原住民族語言，那個是一門課，一個禮拜上幾個小時，但是那個法通過之後，會對數學、物理、天文全部都要可以用台語教、全部都用Amis或Sakizaya教，學生如果要求這個學校，學校課發會同意說這個學校全部用某一個語言教全部的科目，教育部不能反對，而且要編列充足的經費去支持。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而國家語言有幾種，好像是二十二種或者是二十三種，所以這個是完全不同的世界，我們現在很需要這一種東西，因為目前就沒有那麼多人可以用Sakizaya教微積分。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "這好像跟手機的軟體（一樣），你講中文，就會翻譯成英文。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我們現在就是要這樣做。你有足夠多的阿美族人錄，如果之後跟Sakizaya有一些語族的相似性，我們再用AI把這個東西處理過，讓Sakizaya族人更容易使用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "又或者是像你要用客語，可是其實四縣、海陸、大埔、饒平、詔安、南四縣都不一樣，不可能找到六組人去做全部的教材，但是我們用AI，你就可以確保用四縣錄的，可以轉到海陸去。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "我想請教，像一些事件語言的東西，比如數學可以用什麼語言教，那就是數字，好比像文學用不同的語言教，這個不能教吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然確實，文學要透過翻譯，但像一些古典的文學，也許翻譯之後也有它的韻味，或者有一些詩詞，也許你用客家話唸出來，或者是用台語唸出來，其實才更接近本來中國漢語的韻味，亦未可知。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但現在如果不靠遠距技術、AI技術，我們沒有辦法完成「國家語言發展法」要求的那個境界。所以這個同樣的，不是為了技術而技術，而是為了社會需求的發展，並不會因為講的人比較少就覺得是次等，這個很重要。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "或者是消失就不能發展。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒錯。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "最後一個部分是不是可以談有關於社會企業，這兩年有一些時間是放在社會企業跟青年創業上，是不是可以談一下社會企業的重要性？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實是可以讓大家看到我們發展經濟、社會、環境，這三件事是可以同時進行的，並不需要好像上班就是發展經濟，你的公司造成一些社會或者是環境傷害，你等於捐一些錢給NGO，讓他們幫忙解決這一些環境問題，然後週末的時候去當志工，去解決一些社會問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前的想法都是分開的，但是社會企業的特色是，你在做生意的同時，你就在解決社會跟環境的問題，同樣的道理，你在解決環境問題，像接近水資源、海洋生態，他也可以是一門很好的生意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們最近有討論一家社會企業，也就是讓漁船去捕魚，會捕一些塑膠垃圾回來，這個都要整理掉，他就收這一些塑膠垃圾，把技術還原成生殖油，但是也不賣，也就是你的塑膠垃圾來換我的油，這個油又可以繼續出海，然後順便網垃圾回來。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "公司名字叫什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「R-ONE」，而且從漁夫的角度來看是幫他節省成本。另外一部分是捕魚順便淨灘，這個是很好社會企業的例子，並不是所有的人是為了道德去做社會企業，而是你解決社會跟環境問題是一門很好的生意，是要鼓勵這樣的想法。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "可以談一下實際的過程嗎？在前置作業的時候有聊一下，也就是有聊一些公司，對臺灣的結果跟中間是不是有遇到什麼樣要克服的挑戰？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實社會企業的行動方案，有一個在線上的一份簡報，那一份簡報很有意思，就是去蘇格蘭愛丁堡的時候，去跟他們解釋為何臺灣要發展社會企業，這就是我剛剛講的，你可以兼顧不同的價值、你可以達到永續發展的這十七項目標，然後他相對的位置我們提供怎麼樣的服務等等，也有一些QR code。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所有這一些插畫都是喜憨兒畫，這一些東西看起來很特別，就是因為跟我的辦公室前面的足球場一樣，就是用不同的角度在看世界，要我畫真的畫不出來，所以其實光是喜憨兒三個字就是創新，因為以前是叫做「智障」，如果像醫學的名字「唐氏症」，這也並不是對社會很有貢獻的樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是你說喜憨兒及喜憨兒很有藝術天份，這個是我們推廣的重點，我們透過這樣一次次的示範，讓大家看到這個東西是很重要的，所以路透社就報了，所以全世界各大媒體就highlight讓喜憨兒做藝術創作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像點點善除了（幫助）喜憨兒之外，還有幫視障者及街賣者，像喜憨兒做是很容易，也就是媒合一點。但是有一些比較有意義的是，我們幫他扣合SDG的指標，我們把到底解決了社會跟環境問題讓國際知道，知道之後就可以在國際上拓展「影響力投資」的資源來源，因此在過程當中，我們就會show這樣的簡報，像本來是街賣者，很可能看起來不是很有吸引力，但是我們透過服務設計分析，同樣貼便利貼的方式，也就可以看到我跟他買的時候，並不是很知道錢會放在哪裡，所以會有疑慮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個是他們都說「先生，小姐行行好」，他們的CRM可能做不好、顧客不一定回來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個，供應鏈可能也沒有做得很好，他賣衛生紙比便利商店還要貴，因此也沒有必須跟他賣，就是做後面分析。分析完之後點點善就幫他結合各個不動相關的企業，像人生百位，專門穿得很專業，然後可以做互動，也有很多隱形冠軍做輔具的，可以把輪椅改裝成電動車，然後再找台北市公平貿易之都，就可以批一些公平貿易的茶、咖啡等東西，貨品就有特色。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "重點是在群眾募資的時候，根本只有草圖的時候，我們就可以幫他推薦，群眾募資一下子就達標，達標是很容易的，但是重點並不是湊這個錢，而是我只要出錢，就不想看到他失敗。所以，像網路上我們可以看到有很多城市沒有wifi 熱點，所以這一些朋友可以當wifi熱點，或者是手機沒有電了，你就放在那邊，他幫你快速充電，然後陪你聊聊天、泡一杯茶給你喝。不然就前面可以放折疊傘，也就是社區愛心傘的集散地，一開始只有一個草圖，而是喜憨兒畫的，但大家透過群募的過程，不斷地去說這些真的比你顧一個人在那舉牌要有意義，因此車上要裝一個大的廣告看板，那個是LCD螢幕，因此要有一個互動電子支付的部分，因此街賣者可以變成行動支付提供商，透過互動式的方式有廣告，而且下雨還可以折下來變成擋雨的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所有這一些加起來，變成每一個提案子、想法的人，對這一些人不會覺得很可憐、弱勢，就從CSR的思維變成BD的思維，就會變成商務拓展、不可或缺的最後一哩路，這個時候就變成是社會的一份子，並不是很可憐要我們去幫忙，而是他能做一些我們不能做的事情，這就是一個很具體的例子，這個叫做「點點善」。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "是不是可以問一下芙彤園的發展，因為他們做農產相關比較接近的模式，是不是可以談一下？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "芙彤園其實一開始是做土地再生，就是土地的肥力不足，或是因為不永續的農作、可能遭到破壞，所以用肥皂草這一種，讓土地的力量回復，你根本不用照顧，照顧也沒有用，就是自己長的野草，這個比有機農法還要自然，就是你什麼都不去做，他的目的是讓土地的力量恢復，但是種出來的野草，想辦法去找很厲害的挑香師，或者是促進生產價值的東西，也就是這樣配一配會變成非常棒的沐浴用品，就會找像原住民族的藝術家去做意向的東西，因此價值就變得非常高。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是就是契作要用不永續的方式，或者是農地就不農用了，但是現在希望把這一些幾乎要廢掉的地方，用自然農法慢慢把它養回來，但是在過程中，我們想辦法把這個東西變成可以賣很多錢，因為這是他的商業模式。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "你們幫他做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他本來就是社企方案的輔導對象，也就是從商業模式、營運模式，一路都是行政院輔導出來的，到大家認識他之後，全家跟他開始合作，我也有用肥皂箱（站台）幫它推銷，接下來在臺灣或台東做一個品牌，鼓勵原住民族的就業、鼓勵農地再生，也可以做出很好的洗沐用品。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子的話，其實像加拿大現在有一個叫做「buy social」，只要你買的東西有社會價值，這樣子就很願意，政府不管是透過特殊購買的專案，像一個大的建設計畫，裡面5％或幾％都要買這種產品，所以我們這一些東西，因為是社會企業，所以到那邊就可以接軌進那樣的合作案例中。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像他們在加拿大開幕的時候，因為我剛好去加拿大，所以下個月我也會幫他們站台，我很多時候是幫他們做大使的角色。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "他們做成公司，然後你們幫他輔導，可以被大家知道？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，甚至在全家上架，大家都用了之後，發現全家覺得這個對他形象有幫助，不只是CSR，而是開一個概念店，專門都是用芙彤園的這一套美學，像土地再生、自然農法去定義全家，這樣子真的是BD+PR的想法，而不是CSR的想法。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "你的辦公室是在空總，是不是可以講一下，如果現在臺灣要創意的，也就是要來創一個社會企業，你們可以怎麼樣幫助他？或者是提供什麼樣的資源？像有一個育成中心嗎？現在的狀況怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在也有很多大學的育成中心，但是我想我們這個直接看行動方案是比較快的。首先要看年紀，如果你是國中生或者是高中生，就是要等明年的新課綱上路，因為新的課綱裡面，我們從技能導向教學變成素養導向教學，所謂的技能就是分門別類、分科，然後你在那裡面好像個人跟個人競爭，但是現在發現如果過度認同一個技能，過十二年，那個東西被自動化之後就會變成很失落，現在培養學生是要有好奇心去發掘社會問題（自發）、去跟不同人一起結盟（互動），及不要把對方當工具，而是把對方的價值跟你的價值結合（共好）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為新課綱的關係，高中階段就會有選修課程，即使是技術高中都會運用技職讓他的社區更好，像這樣的教案就會跟在地的合作社、協會、社群一起去發展，甚至可以變成是校訂必修的課程，也就是這一所學校的特色在解決社會問題，這個時候當新課綱賦予學校這樣課程設定權的時候。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就可以開社會企業，根本就是在國中階段，可以說我們學校的合作社就是社會企業。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "是不是國中就有校辦企業？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。我們是把社區大學跟實驗教育的精神開始融入，現在很可能你的學校有在做USR，也就是大學社會責任，大學社會責任，同樣是要取得這個學分是要解決社會問題，也就是跨系的，因為一個社會問題很複雜，每一個系的老師都要進來做，你找USR都可以找得到，USR也是非常大的一筆經費，這一筆經費就跟以前教育部教大學是不一樣的，大學是走出象牙塔瞭解社區的提案，而且教育部給大學前是每一季要管考、核銷，每一年要結一次，這個很麻煩。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "USR是一申請就是兩年，這兩年就是讓你證明你的這一件事對社會有幫助，就跟沙盒一樣，如果你證明有幫助，接下來就撥三年的預算給你，讓你放大這個社會影響力，當然如果跟沙盒一樣，兩年下來沒有效益那就退場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是這樣的好處是，老師就不用花這麼多的時間去做行政工作，你只要在兩年期去說你解決社會問題為志業的學程真的對社會有幫助，教育部就給你錢。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "已經開始了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "已經開始兩年了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當你到大四的時候就想創業了，就有U-start，當你有創社會企業的時候，幫你找mentor，無論結果如何都可以說是學習的一部分，但是U-start的成功率是很高的。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "他要找誰來贊助他？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "USR是教育部高教司，剛剛講到的新課綱是教育部國教署，U-start是青發署，也就是三個不同的單位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像剛剛講到的合作教育、平台合作化等等，那個是內政部合團司籌備處，希望可以很快把「籌備處」三字拿掉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果當長到芙彤園的大小，就進入金管會、經濟部及國發基金的範圍，但是這個的特點是我們會建立一套社會效益評估的方法，這個意思是什麼？像大企業很可能會成立一個基金會，會做一些SCR，但是他做1元就只有1元的效益，但是我們會輔導這一些企業去算，如果你投資他1元，會幫你創造3、4元的社會效益，如果是做犯罪預防或怎麼樣，社會在後面就不用蓋那麼多的監獄，可以在未來省下多少錢，這一些都可以算的，算完之後我們可以說服各部會，把本來要做後端的錢搬到前端。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就很像我們把預防醫學的納入拿到預防醫學去做，概念是相同的，是資金取得一條新的路徑，中間很有可能各種需要挑戰法規的地方，這個就回到沙盒，而沙盒就是由國發會來當作計畫平台。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，如果中間需要一個實驗場域，那當然就是衛福部、勞動部、經濟部負責，最後當要走去加拿大、紐西蘭及非洲等等，這是第一次外交部進來這個計畫，以前外交部從來不碰社企的，但是因為永續發展目標是全人類共同價值，所以現在反而外交部是我們國際交流的主要目標。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "其實我們學生參加滿多國際交流的。這個圖可以給我們嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以，這個是社創方案，我們都有書面資料可以提供給你。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "今天是g0v的雙年會，如果再過兩年之後，您想要做什麼？這兩年有滿多事，接下來兩年您的目標是想要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "促進目標實踐的夥伴關係，也就是聯合國第十七項目標，也就是放到外交的施政方針，以前我們輸出的是農業技術、醫療技術，這個都很熟了，今年開始把數位治理當作是可以輸出的東西，也就是放在農業醫療的旁邊，然後輸出的目的，以前都是鞏固邦誼，我們今年在外交部的施政目的說是為了達到聯合國的施政目標。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前外交常常被人覺得好像只有我們跟那一國的高層關係，但是現在透過這樣子做外交，我們叫做「暖實力」，是我們跟那一國人民的關係，我們在這邊的社會企業解決自來水漏水的問題，用AI去解決，紐西蘭本來沒有缺水問題，現在氣候變遷，所以缺水了，台水公司跟社創團隊現在就在紐西蘭用AI幫他們解決漏水問題，他們願意給水壓、水流量，那是一種信任的展現，而這樣子的「暖實力」雖然沒有什麼建材，但是是非常堅實的基礎。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們問我兩年看到什麼？我希望全世界看到臺灣，就想到資料不管是透過分散式帳本或者是其他技術，民間的資料、私部門的資料、公部門的資料、跨部門的資料，你在你的國家會被打壓、篡改、查水錶，只要放到臺灣，臺灣就是可信任資料的提供者跟處理者，而且有非常好的資料科學跟AI，這個是17.18。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "17.17是國際上一想到臺灣，如果沒有辦法在2030年達到永續發展目標，不管是性別平等教育，臺灣絕對可以幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "17.6是臺灣在幫忙的時候，絕對我們不是上國或者是要納貢的做法，而是把g0v開放源碼的開放創新，我們去培力當地的人，讓他們能夠掌握這個技術，而且再去發展這個技術，在發展技術的過程中是實際切合他的需求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像這一次我去愛丁堡，有聽到一個做助聽器的，他完全不懂電機電路，但是他就是去非洲，一開始是在Botswana，那邊日照非常充足，他就是解決當地聽障人士的助聽器，電池很貴，他們買不起，所以要一直換，他就用了太陽能充電的助聽器。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是那個東西的設計完全是聽障人士自己參與設計，然後就開發了一套教程，完全用手語去教電子電路，然後去教電子工程學，所以在地聽障人士自己設計、申請、發明、製造及傾銷的助聽器，它叫做「Solar Ear」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這套教程做完以後，就把Botswana的聽障人士帶去巴西，然後用手語去教當地的電子電路，讓那邊的人去發展適合他們的助聽器，這樣子讓聽障人士好像被社會排擠邊緣，像喜憨兒或者是剛剛那一些行動不便的人士一樣，本來是超邊緣的，現在變成是只有他才能做的事，變成國際的講師、電子工程師，而且按照他的統計，因為他從小是練手語的人，手、眼協調特別好，做這一些微機械的電路、拼裝、Arduino，這個比99％我們這一些沒有聽障的人要來得好，這是很少人知道的一件事，這就是我們專門的詞叫做「適當的科技」，不是為科技而科技，而是為了把那個地方的問題適當地解決，剛剛好那個程度的科技。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們自己透過地方創生，我們也會有開始那個科技的問題，去有社會的主張，再過一年，地方創生開始初步看到一些創新的時候，想到臺灣就想到社會碰到問題，臺灣人不但可以幫忙解決，而且不會控制我們，我們就可以繼續發揚光大，然後我們發揚光大之後，又可以回歸到臺灣來，是一種知識分享及合作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一句話是，大家想到臺灣就想到永續發展目標，#TaiwanCanHelp，去紐約的時候，有幾位立委去，我們就聊到這個，他們就開玩笑，因為立委有一些是不分區，他們開玩笑說我是「世界的不分區」。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "最後一個問題就好，協作做了很長的時間，有沒有讓你印象深刻跟有趣的事情？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "特別有意思的故事。其實有非常多，我還是回到基進式的透明（radical transparency），當時這一位人士是David Plouffe，我們知道他是歐巴馬競選最重要的幹部，他後來去Uber當主要的說客。他來的時候是說所謂的閉門會議，也就是不邀任何的其他人，只有我跟葉寧，也就是他來臺灣的時候談。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "什麼時候？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只要看逐字稿就知道了，應該可以精確到時間點，我入閣之後的每天每一件事見了誰、做了什麼全部都在這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是閉們會議，但是這是他在全世界第一次答應會議完之後，錄影就直接上、逐字稿就上了，雖然是閉門，但是可以是紀錄的，可以看得出來他很不習慣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實有一位他的朋友，我們去紐約辦工作坊的時候，他說David在這一場裡面on the record的時間，很可能是他當年在白宮的時候，從來沒有給過記者這麼久的時間，因為我們不只是逐字稿跟影片，其實我們是用360的相機去把它記錄下來，直到今天你戴上VR，就可以重溫我們討論的這一個現場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我為什麼會印象深刻？其實這裡面講了很好的點，講完之後，其實大家就會知道Uber已經準備好合法、進入臺灣了，所以等於是來示好，最後有跟他討論到垂直起降，也就是Uber air的這一件事，所以也有提供一些想法，也就是我對於你們的垂直起降，我前一陣子在東京可以直接飛的運輸方式是特別有興趣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我就問說你要不要想一下目前開這一些直升機或者是專門做無人載具控制的，一定要是專業人士，出了事情才不會有問題，所以這個時候我就說並不是開好玩的，所以其實你想要鼓勵的是，你尊重這一種專業者的專業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此我就說你現在正在臺灣，就是沒有職業駕照的人也跑來開車的這一件事，其實跟你過兩、三年之後過無人載具的垂直起降是相反的，這個地方有聽進去，而且在360錄影的情況下，等於他跟我在這時候覺得Uber好像應該要在臺灣用職業駕照才對，不會變成事後大家發新聞稿、會議紀錄或者怎麼樣，而是任何回去看直播都可以看有情緒、情感間一下子達到共識的point，你就可以感覺到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來一方面Uber就同意用職業駕照，但是二方面我們跟他們的關係，就是在那時候開始有一點reset，因為以前都是互相放話，兩年前是很互相放話的，現在變成我們的AI研究者，也就是可以去他們那邊用他們的資料，去做公益的AI研究，他們也願意有AI的program，也知道我們的沙崙、無人載具出現，垂直起降跟自駕車願意來這邊跟我們切磋及進行交流。之前是在拔河的東西，透過基進式透明的空間，忽然之間變成共同創造的東西。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "你剛剛講CSR很有興趣，大家並不是因為公益才做這一件事，我們現在也在探討金融業的CSR，我不知道你在金融業這一塊有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次公司治理評鑑指標衡量，其實本來CSR的條款寫得比較好像是公司自己去做，但是現在這一個版本裡面，我們把採購跟投資社會企業，把它也加入那個衡量表，所以意思是你不一定要自己做CSR，你的供應鏈裡面很自然有社會企業，採購好比像僱用有亞斯伯格症、自閉症的朋友幫你做軟體的檢測，一方面也是有社會價值、有解決就業問題，又或是僱用身障者去幫你做建築物的建模，這都是實際存在的社會企業，從你的角度來看，其實你就是供應鏈的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是現在在社會企業有登錄，因此就可以拿去公司評鑑指標去，然後就說在供應鏈裡面解決了多少永續發展目標的社會或環境問題，然後這邊就變成「社會創新企業登記」，你在這個登記裡面就可以看到所有這一些供應鏈當中，你可能的夥伴正在完成什麼社會使命或者是社會價值。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像有一個用分散式帳本做群眾募資的，也就是像「度度客」強調社會價值等等，如果你的群募找他做，就會說達成什麼社會價值，像你的接送可以去用「多扶」等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "過程中你說需要政府進場，就可以在se.pdis.tw網站上選資源，這裡就有一個系統直接告訴你說直接去找公益彩卷、文化部或者找誰，就是按照你的身分跟你在解決的問題，你就可以直接去用姓名、聯絡電話找誰，這裡都有，因此在這樣的過程中，你做CSR的想像就非常擴大，一方面可以透過供應鏈買的方面，二方面可以透過基金會不一定要自己做自己的事，你也可以結合這邊所有的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "政府為什麼願意開這些出來？因為我們自己在最後一哩路沒有民間好，就是這樣子，也就是夥伴關係的概念，並不是你變成我們廠商的概念，因此這一個過程中，同樣你也可以變成CSR，也就是你拋出你的公司，現在最頭痛的社會或者是環境問題，然後你就拋出題目，讓人來解題。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "你剛剛講的社會效益評估，是不是SROI？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "SROI是一種，還有SRS，我們沒有在公司法裡面沒有寫明名稱，因為現在各個方面都在發展，包含B型企業的平衡計分卡，現在有非常多，我們現在希望發展的過程中，掛羊頭就賣羊肉、掛狗頭就……不能賣狗肉。總之你只要在這邊充分揭露，我們就確保你媒合到在找你的人。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "因為我們最近也發現一個狀況，像因為氣溫暖化，水果大豐收，所以很多金融業的保險公司去做農業保險，但這原本是很好的，但好像有人嫌保費貴，保險公司賠得很慘，我覺得這是不錯的idea。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "但是並不是每一個社會企業都賺錢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "創業本來就不一定賺錢。其實我一直有一個概念，因為我自己創業失敗很多次，我的意思是，如果你創業只是賺錢，你賺不了錢倒了，大家會覺得很失敗，但是如果創業是為了解決社會跟環境問題，這個是三重底限，這個很難三個失敗，你賺不到錢至少解決環境問題，沒有解決的話，至少創造社會價值，等於比較難失敗，而且這樣子你試不出商業模式在解同一個問題的人會很尊敬你，你等於幫他實驗成本，就換一個角度，所以這個時候你甚至失敗好幾次，有一個社會企業叫做「Impact Hub」，他們一直在辦「搞砸之夜」，就是你解一個社會或者是環境問題，失敗了就來分享，這樣也是一種社群。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像這家社會企業做的就是專門把你剛剛所講的，像水果次級品一多輪為堆肥等等，他去做這一種二級加工，除了做二級加工之外，做了很多故事，讓他更瞭解這個地方的特色等等，所以這個過程中就專門跟友善耕作的農友採購，可能看起來很醜、賣相規格不佳，把這些改個名字叫「格外品」，因為這樣的關係，所以創造一種專門賣格外品新的東西社群出來，所以靠這一種翻轉的方式，即使失敗也不算失敗，因為過程中就重新定義社會當中的各個關係。" }, { "speaker": "林宏達", "speech": "這個本來就是一個過程。" }, { "speaker": "林文義", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, everyone. I’m Audrey Tang, Taiwan’s Digital Minister and a civic hacker. I’m very happy to be here to share with you for the next 15 minutes about smart policies and social innovation. This is an all-English session. I promised the people over in R0, which is moderated by Peggy, that I’ll recommend the audience here to move to R0 if you’d like to hear a frank debate about the experience of civic hacker working with the government. Their panel is all in Mandarin, while my talk is all in English." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, yes. As Taiwan’s Digital Minister in charge of social innovation, our main idea is to promote the idea of innovating with people, and instead of for the people. We are promoting the idea of power with, instead of power over." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is my office, literally my office. When I joined the cabinet, there is three compacts -- not contracts -- that I agreed with the cabinet. The first is location independence. Whenever, wherever I am working, I am working in the office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I get to have this kind of office, which is co-designed by hundreds of social innovators. This is painted by people with Down’s syndrome. It turns out they are excellent artists, see the world with a different lens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is voluntary association. I don’t give orders, I don’t take orders. Every ministries work with me by voluntary association. Because of that, I don’t talk to, for example, the Ministry of Defense, saying, “Tomorrow, you’re going to be radically transparent.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead, if they have anything that they would like to engage more people, they can come to this space. Not just for public service, but actually, for everybody. Every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, if you have anything you would like to discuss with me, you can just come here, provided you agree to publish the transcript online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, the third is radical transparency. We make sure that all the dealings, not just with journalists and lobbyists, but also internal meetings, publish everything online, so that whenever experiments happen, they don’t have to succeed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they fail, there is actually no failure, because the context of this experiment, the data, the stores, everything of this experiment is up there for everybody to use. When you visit the Social Innovation Lab sometime, you will see those new alien life forms, which are self-driving vehicles." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are tricycles. They have the same right of road as passengers. If they run into buildings, it’s no big deal. It’s all open source from the MIT Media Lab, anyway. Some people would like to chase this into a face of a cat or something, to express the emotion of these vehicles." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or they want to solve a real social problem, like people going to Jianguo flower market. These things can help you carry the pots of orchids. At the end of it, you can hop on it and go back to your home. Then they go elsewhere." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, it’s personal, like personal computing. It’s open, so people can change the innovation, and the most important thing is that it’s transparent. It is happening in a place where hundreds of social innovators can witness how these AIs interact with people day by day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why are using this kind of collaborative governance? Because we want to change the governance model. In the previous century, the idea, very simply, is the government is like the rope in the middle. People who care about the environment maybe talk with the environmental agency. That’s one knot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People caring about economy maybe talk with the Ministry of Economy, which is another knot. The people in the middle, the career public service, is invisible from the outside, but there’s lots of tension that is in between." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was because the government see itself as the role of an organizer and of arbiter of the civil society and private sector. Now, with collaborative governance, we’re asking a different set of questions. We’re asking, given our very different positions, are there some common values?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Given our common values, can there be innovations that makes things works for everyone? If we keep asking those two questions in a facilitative manner, new ideas can emerge, like those self-driving tricycles, that can be good both economically, socially, and also environmentally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody gets to have the input into the creation, maintenance, and co-ownership of these kind of creation. This is what we mean by social innovation. Innovation that solves the social or environmental problem, and with everybody’s input." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, of course, a key question on everybody’s mind is that, how many laws will this break, and how many regulations will this need to be challenged? Will not the career bureaucracy block the innovators from innovating?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The answer is, hundreds of laws, hundreds of regulations are going to be challenged and broken. This is why we devised this idea of sandbox. sandbox.org.tw is a one-stop shop where you can go to, and then basically, there’s already hundreds of cases that say, for example, I want to offer my private parking space as a part-time when I go to work for eight hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I want other people to be able to use it for parking, and charging them for it. I’m not the parking lot, so maybe I don’t want to be charged with the taxation of the parking lot. People can challenge the existing regulations simply by posting their case online for the common good transparently for everybody to see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people there will help you pro bono to find the right municipality and the right people to handle those kind of situations. At the moment, there is four sandboxes in Taiwan, and there’s more to come. Each sandbox allows for a limited period, and in a limited space, to break the law or regulation for the experiment’s result to be shared with everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the thing like shared parking space, that’s the NDC, the platform economy regulation, passed this January, a result the vTaiwan process. Actually, all of these are results of vTaiwan processes. The second one passed this April is the fintech sandbox, where for example, when you open a bank account, you can, for example, provide two ID card over the counter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, one FinTech sandbox is already planning to run, starting later this year, where you can use your mobile identity with your telecom. That will also determine the kind of loan you can get, based on the telecom bills, whether you paid it or not, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is really breaking existing regulations, but we allow them for a year to experiment. Finally, at the end of the year, we expect to pass the UV law, which allows not only tricycles, but also cars that flies, or ships that go to the road, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As long as it solves a real social need, the local municipality can offer up a space for the people to devise and play with these new AI creatures for a year. During that year, not only the data need to be shared to a multistakeholder panel, chaired by the Ministry of Economy Affairs, but also, you can extend the scope of the experiment if it goes well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it doesn’t go well, well, we thank the investors, for everybody learned something. If it goes well, and if the regulation change after 60 days of public commentary, then the regulation just change to your version." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Your forked version will get merged back. If the members of parliament need to deliberate up for four years, then you essentially get a monopoly for that experimentation period. After the new laws get signed into effect, then the innovation becomes true. If you go to sandbox.org.tw, there is already hundreds of cases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, of course, with the official endorsement and office hour, a lot of people will ask, what about other people living in other counties? We understand that people in Taipei can just come to my office every Wednesday and have hackathons, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you don’t live in a place near to the high speed rail station, isn’t you essentially excluded from this open policymaking process? The answer is that every couple Tuesday, I just go to, for example, that is Hualien, and this is Taitung." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever I go to there, and work with social innovator there, I maybe stay for a night. I maybe stay for an entire day. Our discussion is being live casted to the Social Innovation Lab, to the 12 different ministries’ people there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to answer in real time. Had it been one-to-one conversation with one ministry, there’s a tendency for one ministry to push to another ministry. Now, because all 12 ministries are here, they will just talk among themselves and figure something out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the cooperative movement is now being reclassified to be qualified to enter a lot of local revitalization projects. Associations, nonprofits, can now own subsidiary companies. There’s many regulatory innovations that are born just by the people in their natural habitat, explain their cases for the people in the 12 ministry to see and to reach a horizontal understanding, and a virtual team." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, we will make sure that all the new innovations are on display for everybody to see. For example, if a self-driving car, truck, or whatever is going to be enrolled into the sandbox, even before the multistakeholder panel, we make sure that it’s on display in Shalun City, which is very close to a high speed rail station." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can just go to the zoo, a virtual zoo, to see those new creatures. We have lots of simulation scenarios, like during...I don’t know to translate 遶境（Pilgrimage Procession）, the circulation of the goddess. For example, lots of motorcycles, lots of different traffic situations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can first see the simulation here in the control center before integrating it in our everyday life. The most important thing here is that we see AI as something that could be amended by the collective intelligence, instead of something that overwhelms or oppresses collective intelligence. AI must always work in conjunction and in service of the collective intelligence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That brings to our AI-powered conversation all the FinTech, platform economy, and the UV sandbox has gone through this process. In the vTaiwan process, we use AI to moderate human discussions, to ask people how they feel about a certain thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We crowdsource, of course, the facts, and then we ask people’s feelings. In this conversation, there’s no right or wrong about feelings. It’s just whether it resonates with people or not. Based on the feelings, the stakeholders can then propose ideas. The best ideas are the one that take care of the most people’s feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, Lisa Lin Kuan-yu, during the UV consultation posted that she thinks field test of an automotive driving on public roads should have a predictable space and time boundary. Now, you can agree or disagree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you click agree or disagree, your avatar will move among your Facebook or Twitter friends to show how much resonance your ideas have. In answering for a few questions, you can also propose new questions for the AI to do the clustering, and a principal component analysis." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Always after three weeks or so, we find people agree to disagree on a few divisive statements, but they always coalesce on the consensus statements. We use those consensus statements to make judgments about, for example, whether to continue the sandbox conversation, or whether to make the regulation, and to define the boundary of those new sandbox laws." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The interesting thing is, if you use the social media, it’s usually the other way around. What makes it different from the social media is that there is no reply button. If you have the reply button, you will maybe attack this sentiment or this statement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because there is no reply button, just like on Slido, the only recourse is to propose something more nuanced, more eclectic, for other people to vote on. In this way, we make sure that people’s feelings are what binds the business interest, the social interest, the environment interest, in a collaborative governance way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without which it is just individual people talking to individual agencies. Through this cross-agency mechanism, we make sure that people’s feelings are really reflected into the process. When we went through Taiwan, we discovered some many common interests, and people already using civic tech to solve their local social issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure a lot of people here in Taiwan know about the AirBox, which partners with the g0v air pollution visualization network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, in many UN-related meetings that I gave telepresence or in person presence, when I showed those 2,000s of points that people just set them on their balcony, on their home, on their schools, and so on, the number one question I get from other people from Asian countries is that, “Doesn’t this undermine the legitimacy of your national Environmental Protection Agency?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "“Isn’t this a threat to the national administration? In our country, not 2,000 people. If it’s 200 people, all these people will either get disappeared, or we will just poach them into the government. In any case, we would not let this kind of movement grow to thousands of people strong.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My answer is always, like in Taiwan, we see the freedom of expression, of assembly, of speech, as core value. They are not instrumental values. The most important value is the vibrant civil society. If we cannot be the civil society, we’ll just join the civil society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the Civil IoT’s Project’s stance, which is a sponsor, I think, to this very summit. We basically, in any cases where you can set up, we’re not going to compete. We’re going to offer, for example, more example measurement devices, but in places where you cannot enter as a citizen scientist." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, here, this is very important, because that tells whether the air pollution comes from outside of Taiwan, or whether inside Taiwan. If we don’t have that number, it’s very difficult to tell whether it’s of a foreign nature or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no way that AirBox people will go to the middle of the Taiwan Strait and put the air sensors there, but we are going to. In our offshore wind turbines, we’re going to set up IoT system to make sure that they report back to the same system that the civil IoT system is using." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is really multisectoral, and the open data not just come from the government sides, but also from the citizen sides as well. I hear that people like Jserv is working on distributed ledgers to make sure that their numbers are snapshotted and stored on an Iota distributed ledger to make sure that we don’t change the number the day before the election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It helps to put everybody to account. The great thing about this kind of technology is that it spreads naturally, because it’s open innovation. We don’t have to sign a bilateral agreement with a country or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all on GitHub. People just learn about it and deploy it everywhere in the world. In this way, we attract the best people to use this common evidence in a way that can establish the common conversation among people of human activity and environmental, meteorological data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A lot of mayoral candidates ask me if we can post the winners of this online before the election. We cannot. I’m sorry. I think science is more important than the election. We will do the science right, and you will see the fruits of this visualization later next year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In conclusion, I would like to say that I see main work is working on the partnership for the goals, not just for economy, environment, or society in different silos, in different portions of one space, time, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But to make sure that innovation are good simultaneously for all the global goals through this common data and evidence-based discussion. Finally, because I talk about AI, distributed ledgers, and virtual reality, whatever, other technologies, there is a poem that is my job description that I wrote became the Digital Minister I’d like to share with you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It goes like this:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see the Internet of things, let’s make it an Internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience. And finally, whenever we hear that a singularity is near, let us always remember: the plurality is here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Derek, are you hearing us?" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Yes, hello. Can you guys hear me?" }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Yes, we are hearing you. Please welcome our next speaker, Derek." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Oh, boy. Hello, everyone. Hopefully, the connection holds. It’s crazy to think that right now, I’m calling you guys from the other side of the world. Good afternoon. It is currently 3:53 here in Canada in the morning. I’m very excited to be joining you guys here today." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I think my introduction was done a bit earlier, but just again, my name’s Derek Alton. I’m part of the strategic partnerships team for the digital collaboration division for the government of Canada. Let’s start this presentation here. I’ll share screen." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Are you guys able to see my screen OK?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Perfect, all right. Good, excellent. This presentation’s about imagining a digital nation. This is a topic that has become a very hot topic here in Canada over the last couple years. We’re really trying to bring our government into the 21st century." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The focus of the mandate of our government for the last three years is, how do we make Canada into a digital nation? How do we make the government of Canada a digital government? We have a new CIO who’s really focused on transforming the way our government works on the inside." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "In the last year or two, we’ve also shifted into more of a leadership role on the international stage. We are hugely honored to become co-chairs of the Open Government Partnership for this year. Hopefully, I’ll see some of you guys at the summit we’re hosting in May for the open government partnership." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "As well as we’ve joined the D7, the Digital Seven, which are seven countries, governments around the world, that are putting a big focus on how do we become more digital as governments? The key thing about digital is it’s not just putting government services on a website." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s not necessarily what makes something digital. It’s much deeper. It’s more of a cultural change, a cultural transformation. To that end, one of the things that we’ve been working on as the government of Canada is a set of digital principles." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Now, we’re calling them digital standards, that will help give some direction and help us as a government become more digital. This is our second iteration. In the fall, the final version of this was made and sent out to the world." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We got a whole bunch of feedback both internally, but also from all sorts of different community organizations and groups to help us figure out what should these digital principles, these digital standards be." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "This is our second iteration. There was just a launch a couple weeks ago. It’s evergreen. That means it’s going to be continually changing and growing as our context shifts, and as we learn more through doing and trying to live out these standards, we’ll get a better understanding of how we need to tweak each one." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I don’t want to talk too much about the digital standards, per se, but rather on a specific project or initiative that I’m involved in that we believe is helping -- or we hope is helping -- model what it means to be a digital nation. That is the Open Accessible Digital Workspace." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The way I like to think of the Open Accessible Digital Workspace is it’s an example of open government in practice, taking the concepts and the theories, trying to apply it in how government works on a day to day basis." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We’re really trying to reflect on how government can work together to empower, connect, and work with people to co-create with each other, citizens to create a better world. First things first, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve?" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I think the problem we’re trying to solve with this is that the context that we live in has shifted. We now live a digital age. The majority of our interactions, and how we engage and experience the world, is now mediated and moderated by digital technology. Case in point, this presentation." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s had huge ramifications on how we experience the world, how we interact with the world, and the role government plays within that. Our society’s become more networked as a result. There’s way more data floating around that we can work with." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "As people, we’re much more engaged in shaping our world and personalizing our experience to the world around to better meet our needs and our desires. This is something that government has been slow to respond to." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We’ve been very siloed. Government, society’s become more networked, and we’re still working in our silos. The world is changing faster and faster, and we’re still behind the curve, slow to react, and slow to change and keep up with the pace of change." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We really need to do better. We need to be better at government. There’s also lots of opportunity here. We could do so much together. We could work, co-create with citizens and experts across sectors in a way that we never could before." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We can find, recruit, and nurture talent, help connect skills with opportunities to use those skills to make change. We use the crowd to solve issues that matter to our citizens. Nowadays, we realize that the answer to our problems might not be within the knowledge of the actual team that’s working on the problem." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It might exist on the other side of the world. We now have the tools to help capture and harness this knowledge to the society and the collective world. We’re trying to create an open and inclusive, diverse, digital public space." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Public spaces are so key to democracy. What does a public space look like in the digital world that we now live in? There’s an opportunity to, now that we’re more interconnected and can share information, to build things once to the benefit, not just of our own team, but across society, across the globe." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We don’t need to keep all trying to solve the same problem independent of each other. The outcome of this is that there’s an increased value that we can create with reduced cost. Something that really highlighted this problem for me, or this opportunity for me, is my role in strategic partnership means I get to interact with lots of different organizations and groups." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Particularly other governments, both within Canada, the many different levels of government, but also around the world, meeting people who work in governments in different countries, and realizing that we’re all trying to solve the same problems." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "There’s a huge opportunity here if we start collectively coming together, and solving them together, as opposed to trying to solve them in our silos. This is the opportunity that exists, and this is the hope we’re trying to capture with the Open Accessible Digital Workspace." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "What is the Open Accessible Digital Workspace? I like to think of the Open Accessible Digital Workspace as the digital public square, the public square of the digital world. It’s something that’s based on open source software, open standards." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The workspace is a suite integrated, accessible tools that connect people to each other and information they need to work better. It’s something that we can fund and contribute to new and existing open source projects." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Through that, that investment, we can raise the bar not just ourselves and our team, but for everybody. That’s the benefit of open source. Anyone can add services into it. They can use the data to make better decisions." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It becomes a public good, a public service, to all of society and all of the world. By building it together, and we can create a diverse and inclusive space for all sorts of voices and different perspectives. This digital public square can be used and reused, and adapted and changed. It’s free of advertising forever." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s the vision of the Open Accessible Digital Workspace. That’s conceptual. Another metaphor I like to use to make sense of what it is that we’re talking about, we’re talking about this Open Accessible Digital Workspace, this digital public square." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It’s the idea of a toolbox, a digital toolbox. We use tools to help us do things more effectively and more efficiently. We develop a set of tools that we use regularly to help us build bookshelves, build a house, do all sorts of different things." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We also interact and live in more of a digital world. We’re starting to develop more and more of a digital toolbox, a set of tools that we use to work in a digital way. For example, right now, we’re using Skype. This is an example of a digital tool." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "You guys are using Slido, I believe. That was mentioned earlier. That’s another type of digital tool. Email, instant messaging, these are all digital tools that we’re starting to use to help us get things done and do things together in a digital world." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The idea of the Open Accessible Digital Workspace is to create a suite of open source digital tools that are free and accessible to everybody, and that integrated, so that collectively, they develop this common platform experience that allow us to connect, to collaborate, and to do and be governments in real time together across geographic areas." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s the idea of Open Accessible Digital Workspace. That’s the broad vision. We pitched this through our governments internally in the spring, and we were given a three-year runway and some base funding to see if we could take this from a conceptual and into actually something practical that we could actually build, use, and share to the world." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Where do we start? How do we build this Open Accessible Digital Workspace collectively together? With a real toolbox, there are certain base elements. First, you need a toolbox that help you organize and access the tools that you want." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Then you have some base tools that are the foundational tools. If you going to build a house, you’re probably going to need a hammer. That’s pretty much a standard tool. You’re probably going to need a tape measure. There are some base tools." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We’re thinking, what are the base, important tools needed for a digital nation? Here’s our first crack of what this can look like. First off, the idea of a single sign-up, authentication, a way that you can identify as you as yourself, that then connects you to a profile, a profile that you can then move and move around to access all the different tools." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "This connection of a single account sign on with a profile as a service, for me, I view as this being a digital toolbox. This is a container that the tools then sit within that give you access to the tools to be able to move and shape them, and design your own set of tools within that toolbox." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The next one that we’re working on is this idea of an open collaborative space, a base foundational collaborative space, that allows people to connect form groups around issues and projects they’re working on, and share files, and have discussions, and that base level of collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Where are we doing this? We’re using the open source platform, L, and we’re actually working on it with the government of the Netherlands to develop this base foundational platform. Another thing we’re working on is, we’re calling it Kruger Marketplace, but it’s the idea of connecting talent with opportunities." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "There’s a ton of different ideas and skill sets. How do we more effectively connect those skill sets with the opportunities that exist? We’re developing a base platform that does a lot of that. That’s another that we’re building as a base foundation." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Another thing was one that actually developed quite by accident. As a team, we realized we needed instant messaging to more effectively connect and collaborate together, and get our work done. We, after a couple of months of testing different options, ended up selecting the open source platform, Rocket.Chat." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It’s like an open source version of Slack. It’s an instant messaging platform, and just adopted it, and started using it as a team to help us work better. Then word got out within the government. All of a sudden, all these other teams started using it and adopting it." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "These are the base foundational tools that we’re currently working on to try to build that foundation for an open accessible workplace. That’s where we’re at right now, but we recognize that we can’t do this on our own." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "This is something that needs to be, the true potential of this lies when we come together and collaborate across different groups. The strategic partnership team that I’m part of is really working hard to find ways of connecting the dots between the work that other groups are doing." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "For example, when I was in France, France is using Riot. We’ve got an instant messaging platform that I’ve been working with, and doing great work on it. Maybe we let France really develop that, and that becomes the instant messaging platform for the Open Accessible Digital Workspace that we can all use anywhere in the world." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Taiwan, you guys have got a bunch of different platforms that you’re using to do a lot of really cool stuff that makes it easier for citizens to participate actively in co-creating policy and programs. These are platforms that we can adopt and be part of the Open Accessible Digital Workspace." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "How do we create space for different organizations and governments to start sharing with each other, and collectively build this interweaving network of open source platforms and tools to create this digital public sphere that allow us to work?" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s the big question we’re working on this year with strategic partnerships. We’ve got a series of different pilot projects we’re working on. One of the things I’m working on right now is finding ways to bring municipalities together to identify a common pain point, and then identify an open source digital solution to that pain point." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Then have those municipalities collectively together invest in supporting the development of that open source solution, which then gets adopted into the Open Accessible Digital Workspace. Of we can show how that model works, that becomes something that can be replicated anywhere and everywhere." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "To allow all sorts of different groups, so they can start adopting it in these open source platforms, so over time, we develop this large suite of open source digital tools that help us do our job. They’re all interconnected and woven for this Open Accessible Digital Workspace." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I think I’m going to stop there for now. Oh, one more slide I should show you guys. This is one I get really excited about. For me, this is how I envision, when we talk about what is this Open Accessible Digital Workspace, this slide for me helps visualize it." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "You see you’ve got the enterprise authentication. That’s your doorway in. That’s your toolbox to get into your set of tools. That then connects you with your profiles and service. That’s your profile that helps you then personalize your access to the different tools." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Then each of these is different type of tools. It’s a micro service model, so it’s a series. Each tool has a specialized use case. It’s more of a toolbox, as opposed to a Swiss army knife. What this allows people to do is it allows them to mix and match." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It allows them to choose the digital platform, the digital tool that they want to use, and then just build it into this ecosystem of interconnected platforms. This means that groups can go open source, which is what we always encourage." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "They can also choose to adopt proprietary software as well. Maybe they’re already in an arrangement, some type of sole contractor that’s given them a platform that they’re paying for, and they’re already in for a three-year contract." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "They can just bring that in. Hopefully, the platform will be interoperable, and be able to part of this ledger ecosystem. This allows for more experimentation. It allows for more personalization, and it makes it easier for all sorts of different groups to build pieces that they see missing, and then add them to this growing ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I’m going to stop there. I look forward to digging more into this in the Q&A. Thank you so much, guys, for this opportunity to present this idea. I hope you guys are interested. Please reach out if you want to learn more, and I’d love to work with you so we can collaborate more effectively together." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "My name is Clément Mabi. I come from France. I am from the University of Technology de Compiègne. Before to start, I would like to thank the organization team who invite me, to thank the Bureau français de Taipei, the French office, to make this trip possible." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "To echo to Audrey and Derek, my first question will be, what should a digital nation be? First a normative perspective, so a theoretical one, a digital should be seen a nation where people have found solutions to mobilize digital culture in order to organize the way of living together, and renew the relationship between citizens and institutions." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "By more co-construction of public policies, and more transparencies of public institutions. This call for digital technologies should allow a continuous democracy, and therefore a more permanent public deliberation to promote the abilities of technologies to reform public services, and enhancing citizens’ trust in the government." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "From a grounded perspective, my argument will be to say that the digital nation needs two main ingredients to succeed. A state, an administration, that has completed its digital transition, and a mobilized and organized digital civil society, through civic tech." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "For my demonstration, I will use the French case. Is France a digital nation? France is famous for many things. Yeah, of course, sorry." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "France is famous for many thing. Wine, stripes, our cut accent in English, but also revolutions. What about our digital revolution? Has France started its digital revolutions? Can we see a 2.0 nation, or at least 1.0 nation?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think we are on the better version. We can see the development of a digital democracy with more citizen initiative, like petition, mobilization platforms, public consultation software or collaborative toolbox." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "However, many barriers remain before this promised land, before a digital nation? Let’s keep it modest. It’s true that there is some positive trend. We have since 2011 an open data policy, which is by default, in every administration since 2015." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "We are officially involved in the Open Gov Partnership since 2014. There was an OGP summit in Paris in 2016. We have the development of major public consultation, like for legislative drafts, with around 20,000 participants for the most successful in 2016." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "We have a proactive policy of inclusion since 2017. The institutions organized an innovative coalition of actors in France called The Mednum, which is bringing together on an equal footing all of the actors involved in the issues of digital inclusion, including public authorities." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The reason, so a reform of the National Assembly to adopt some digital principles, like a new petition right, or possibility to citizen agenda setting in 2018. There is a new program called Public Interest Entrepreneurs program, which try to introduce agile meters from startup to the administration, a bit like PO network, I guess, here." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "There is also a national impulsion for the development of a tech for good ecosystem in France due to the President Macron, but there is also in France, we still have a very strong representative and leadership-based political culture. A very strong also administrative, centralized culture, as we can see." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Even if you can notice some exceptions, like for the National Addressee Database, which is a very interesting example of a French collaborative project between civil society and administration, we can see that the French administration is pretty shy for common goods." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "We can also see that French NGO were very skeptical about the French or GP action plan, especially on the part concerning the transparency of public action, and the action of lobbies. All of this overview give us a very nuanced view of the digital transformation of the French state." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "What about the second part? Two second dimension of digital nation, the mobilization of the civil society. We have, since 2012, the rise of a French civic tech community. How is it likely organized, the French civic tech?" }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "We have, like in many countries, like here, initiative who wants to change the rule of the democratic game, and give citizens a new place, due to digital culture. I want to assume here that behind this unique expression civic tech, we have in reality a large variety of political projects." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "How to find one’s way through this frenzy of initiative? To achieve this, I think it’s necessary to shift from a tool-centered perspective, what tools can do, to prefer a political project perspective, what citizens can do with tools." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "In order to, I suggest a rough mapping of the French civic tech, organized around the two main tensions in the community, the how and the why. The first tension, the why, includes the desire to induce social transformation with, on the one hand, those who seek to deepen institutional democracy, and on the other hand, those who seek to transform and renew the institutions." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The second axis, the how, characterizes the degree of institutionalization, and the proximity with the public authorities. On one side, we find projects that fall within a rational of counter-democracy, like I said earlier this morning." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "That is to say, they want to affect institutions from outside. At the other end of the axis, we find projects that collaborate actively with the public authorities. This work reveals several trends that allow to identify four groups of civic tech." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The first group is the external critics. It’s for group initiatives working on deepening democracy by monitoring institutions. The work done by the French NGO, Observatoire Citoyen, cities on overlook, and its tools, nosdeputes.fr, our representative.fr, is a good example." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Using an open source platform, it’s assembles all the data concerning representative activities, attendance, participation commissions, things like that. They use it to make graphs and visualization to allow citizens to follow and evaluate their actions." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The second groups, the external reformers, seek to deepen the functioning of representation by encouraging collaboration between citizen and institutions. In this category, we can find tools for collective intelligence and debating platforms, like Politiversity or CAP Collective. Or this one, called voxe.org, with a tool for comparing electoral programs." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "For the time being in France, the external reformers are the best developed category of civic tech, the most visible. Perhaps also, they’re less critical. They’re less critics about French government, but we can discuss it, and those who used to empower the unempowered." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The third group, the critical reformers, would belong to the field of counter-democracy. They seek to transform institutional democracy by disruption, like Ethan Zuckerman said this morning. Here, the idea to mobilize civil society in order to renew institutions in a civic perspective." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Like you know very well here, activists and developers meet at the Academia Sinica to improve those civic techs. In France, the Voxe Network has been organizing since almost two years, to contribute to those dynamics, and to develop an active, open source community in France." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The last group, the embedded hackers, were groups, actors seeking to hack democracy from inside. Here, we find, for example, platforms that want to associate citizens to law-making. This is the case of the platform called Parlement & Citoyens, citizen and parliament, which proposes an online debating tool to bring about citizen amendments in legislative drafts." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Examining the French civic tech this way makes possible to highlight at least two major results. The first one, that there is a tension between two vision of civic tech. Each performs a different conception of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "On the one hand, we have the civic startups, which try to consolidate business and general interest by collaboration with institutions. On the other hand, civic hacking try to prove that collective interest is now associated to common good and to communities that use them." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Civic startups improve democracy by delivering a service, when civic hacking try to empower a network based on shared values. The second results is that there is a risk that French civic tech will be absorbed by gov tech initiatives, as a kind of sponsorized citizen expression." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "We observe that the role of public actors in the civic tech ecosystem is not very really clear. Most of its action to open democratic markets, which largely reinforce and empower the civic startups model. Meanwhile, civic hacking remains fragile in France, because communities’ works need time on innovation to develop new kind of public and private coalitions." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "To conclude, we can see that the main challenge for having a digital nation in France or everywhere else, 1.0 or 2.0, is a problem of political determination. Open is often seen as a concession, as a detour to ultimately preserve power relationship." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "For the civic tech, we can see that the risk is to focus on technological solutions, on economic benefits, without a real strong political perspective. If they think only about services, public authorities will miss an opportunity to find solution for the three crucial issues for the digital future of our societies." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Fighting against inequality, the promotion of a full citizenship, and the defense of democracy as the expression of people’s will. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Please welcome our next speaker, Perry Chang." }, { "speaker": "Perry Chang", "speech": "I’m sorry that I will speak in Mandarin, because it’s easier for me to deliver my message." }, { "speaker": "Perry Chang", "speech": "[non-English speech]" }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "OK, let’s start our QA session now. Hello, Derek. You’re back. I believe Perry just posed a question for Audrey, so I hope she will answer it a bit later. I want to ask my own question, and then we will start taking questions from Slido and the floor." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "My question is, it’s good, it’s fantastic to have the four of you here to talk about your vision of a digital nation, but I want to ask something about, along the line with Perry, about the older system, specifically the procurement system in the government." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "As Audrey has mentioned, Taiwan’s going to have several sandboxes programs, and for France, you have entrepreneur programs, which is a very new advancement. I’m wondering, how are you going to bridge the results of these programs into the existing government?" }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "What kind of reformation in the existing procurement system is required, do you think, so that we can channel these innovations into existing government, especially given that, as far as now, in Taiwan and Canada, procurement information are not even open data yet. What’s your view about this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do I take one? What is the order?" }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Derek, you want to speak first?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This way, the sequence?" }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Let’s follow the sequence. Derek, please." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Wow, start off with an easy question. Thanks, guys." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, this is trivial. You’ve heard it hundreds of times. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The short answer is, procurement is one of the big sticky things. When we talk about creating a digital nation, government becoming more digital, one of the key pain points, key sticky points on this, is going to be completely transforming how procurement happens." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s hard. That takes time, because procurement is tied to policy, rules, and regulations, and those take a while to change. One of the things we’re trying to figure out is, how can governments do more micro procuring?" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Small-scale procurements that allow us to more nimbly support civic tech spaces, for example. This is one the things that, with the municipal innovation pilot project I’m working on, we’re hoping will help, is it’s four different vehicles in which governments can move smaller amounts of resources into spaces like the civic tech space." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "There’s going to be a lot of experimentation. I know when I was in the UK, they’re also experimenting with new ways of doing procurement that allows for this lightweight, quick shifting of resources. It’s definitely a tricky one. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It’s definitely a tricky one, particularly because governments are entrenched into certain ways of moving resources. One of the big challenges we have in the government of Canada is, historically, we have invested a lot into digital tech through a lot of major companies." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s how we’re designed. We’ve already got preset processes, relationships, and stuff like that that direct us towards these larger more traditional tech companies. Now, we’re trying to rewrite the processes to allow us to have more nimbleness. It definitely takes time." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "It’s going to take some time, and some failure. We’re going to make mistakes as we try to figure this out. It’ll be interesting to see the repercussions of when you make mistakes with money. How that plays itself out will be interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Literally, the first policy that I started to work with two years ago as Digital Minister is procurement policy. That was because I advocated for very much the same thing before I become the Digital Minister. I really wanted to get the procurement laws fixed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve made some improvements. For example, at the moment, if you start a government procurement, up to $1 million Taiwan dollars, you can actually just go to the most valuable or the most fitting process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was just 10 percent of that. It was around 100K that has been raised. I cannot take credit for that. It is PCC and Commissioner Chen’s work, but it really enables us to basically have a tenfold increase on procurement on medium and small enterprises. That’s the first one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that we made the Linux Foundation open API standard a national standard, so that if you start a procurement, and the vendor provides something that is only human readable, but not machine readable, you can demand that vendor to develop a machine to machine interface for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they say, “I’m going to charge you a lot more for that,” you can say that, “You are not professional, according to our procurement laws, so I’m going to another vendor.” This is another change that we have already put in. It’s actually already in effect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, the new procurement law is in the parliament. We expect it to be passed later this year, which will further enable the best value bid, as we call it, and also opens the doors for best value bid to mean social value and other kind of value, in addition to economic or professional value." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is, again, pretty good news. Finally, the procurement data, the public procurement agency, has ruled that it could be made available as a freedom of information. Because when, in hearing open data, we say that it has to be compatible with the creative commons attribution license." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which means that you can use it for a lot of commercial propose. You can even change the numbers and things like that. There’s basically no restriction of you modifying the data by yourself, and there’s a lot of reservation, actually, for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I work on a dictionary called the Moe Dictionary When we talk with the Ministry of Education of releasing dictionary data, they have one reservation about the open data license. They don’t want people to change the number of strokes of a character, or to translate the dictionary into a simplified character that confuse everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, they chose a license that is restricted, according to international open definition, that basically say you can only do limited modification of it. You can still visualize it, but you cannot change it a lot. Then you can only use it for purposes that are of common good, of domestic people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Under these new terms, in our next open data council, we’re going to announce that the procurement data is going to be available under these revised terms, which we will not call open data, because it is not creative commons attribution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will be publicly available, and able to be analyzed, although you cannot freely modify it, and there are some restrictions." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Do you want to answer the question about shipping information officer, or later?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It used to be that the deputy premiers I mentioned was the CIO, but that was the previous administration. At the moment, our CIO is Minister Wu Tze-cheng, who is also the Science and Technology Minister Without Portfolio, and the head of the Board of Science and Technology, which has real procurement power and authoritative power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why at the moment, the FinTech sandbox — or indeed, sandbox.org.tw — really works pretty well. Cryptocurrency, for example, the financial minister just said, “OK, we’re going to be in charge of the financial anti-money laundering part of the cryptocurrency.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, of the head of BoST, Minister Wu Tze-cheng, I think, is doing a fantastic job, which you just described. I do agree with you that we cannot always rely on the fact that the head of BoST, the head of NDC happens to be very forward-thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There needs to be some way to guarantee the responsible agency. I think we’ve made some advance by having a GDP or negotiation office within the NDC, which will talk about these kind of cross-regional issues, but we don’t have a law to support this kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, at the end of this year, we’re going to pass hopefully the Digital Communication Act, 數位通訊傳播法, which again, is a vTaiwan output. The Digital Communication Act will, for the first time, task the Execute Yuan to build in a level that is above all the different ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A task force that has sufficient budget to work with the civil society. Any civil society organization that can work within the sphere of Internet governance will be considered into the governance system. I think it really took a lot of time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I personally worked on the previous version of the Digital Communication Act, when it was still called the Electronic Communication Act. That was 2015 or ’16. I think at the end of this year, because of CPTPP, this is finally going to be passed. After that, we will have the sufficient unit and budget for it." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "You have something to add to this question?" }, { "speaker": "Perry Chang", "speech": "[non-English speech]" }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "We can take a few questions now. You can use the microphone in front of you. If you want to ask a question, please first tell us who you are. Please keep it brief, and make sure it is a question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My name is Paul Trevine, sociology student. I’m employed here in this building upstairs. Thank you very much for all the presentations, very interesting. My colleagues, we are preparing a service on risk and new technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I was just wondering, I think all of you share the same values of, I think your keywords are openness, to be open, to be transparent, to be participative. I think Clément’s presentation mentioned how to protect democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I just wonder, I know it’s not a topic of the panel. You’re more concerned about how to share data and these sort of things. I’m just concerned, because recently in Taiwan, we had this problem of fake news which led a diplomat based in Japan to commit suicide." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I found that terrible. I don’t know the reason, but it seems that the fake news was created by China. It’s also true, we all know that the risk of being hacked by China is a reality. I guess Taiwanese government is doing a lot to protect government, digital information." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m just concerned, do you have any research group working on how to protect the average citizen of being hacked, or how to protect Taiwanese? Maybe the same question could be asked for France and Canada." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Those countries could be also hacked by Chinese hackers, actually. I just wonder. It’s good to be open, but how to protect yourself from people who don’t share your democratic values." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Derek, do you want to answer first?" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That’s a big question. The short answer is yeah, there’s definitely people working in the government of Canada on this question around protecting citizens, protecting government from digital espionage, organizations meddling in the digital space." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "The big one in Canada that has shaken things up is what’s happened in the US with the last US election. That put everybody on notice that this is a thing. This can happen anywhere. There’s definitely teams within the government of Canada who are working on..." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We have an election coming up next year, so that’s one area of focus. I think your question was actually beyond that, looking at what’s government doing to protect citizens against this type of stuff? I don’t know. That’s a really good question." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not sure what can be done. I think we’re still figuring this stuff out. This is a new space. We’re still learning the rules. We’re still learning the role government needs to play in this space. I don’t think I have, actually, a very good answer for you at this point, but that’s a great question." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Thank you, Derek. Audrey, please?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, I would like to encourage to google this keyword, “moderate approach to moderating.” I will post it on Slido. It will point to a World Economic Forum report. I’m no longer working with the WEF on the future council at the moment, but I used to work with these people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that provides a great overview that I cannot explain everything in two minutes or so. I will point out two things. First, I think it’s not helpful to use the F-word. I never use the F-word, the word you just used to describe news." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Both my parents are journalists, and I think that’s an affront to journalism, if you use the fake, the F-word. I distinguish between two kind of information. If a journalist produce content that later proves to be not entirely true, they had not done their fact check very well, then it’s misinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re still doing their journalistic duties. It’s just it so happens that they reported something that is counterfactual. They are not intentional. This is misinformation. On the other hand, there are people who post as journalists, who write something that looks like a journalistic output." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are not professional journalists, and they may have a counter-democratic intent. We call it disinformation, because it is intentional. The F-word describes both things, and I think it’s very unhelpful to discussion. This is the first point I would like to make." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that for misinformation, I think in Taiwan, what we do is that in the government, we don’t lie when we can help it. Whenever there is a misinformation from the media, now every media ministry has a scoreboard of how short the timespan between the initial misinformation and the clarification to add to the factual issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the Executive Yuan’s website, there is a whole section dedicated to timely response to journalistic misinformation. I think average score now is four hours. We’re just keep upping the thing, shortening the timespan due to the peer pressure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, if people would like to wait for three or four hours, you can almost always reliably get a clarification from a ministry if there is a journalistic mistake. That’s for misinformation. For disinformation, that calls to a completely different solution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that the most helpful metaphor is how we solved spam email before. Back in 2000, spam was a real thing. People called it the Spam Wars. I participated in spam assessing. People thought can technology can fix this, or regulation can fix it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People thought it takes a strong consumer protection. People think we should all switch to Gmail or whatever to solve spam. On the other hand, finally, when spam was solved, it is not by any single actor. It’s by a lot of small civil society and public sector activities that gradually increase the cost of spam until where it’s not profitable anymore to send spam." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we should use this approach on disinformation. There’s a lot of civic tech projects in Taiwan, such as the CoFacts Group and so on, actively contributing to this area." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "I think we have to think that open is not like open every door or every window. I think when we mean open government, open information, or things like that, it’s not like opening every windows or every doors of a country." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "It’s to organize the circulation. This means you can have some protections. I think there is two main issues. There is the question of security, like you said, the question of manipulation. For the manipulation, you can develop at least one legislative approach to organize a content policy, and to organize some fact checking application, like we saw during the summit." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "You have the security issue, about how to protect yourself, how to protect your infrastructures. There is many way to do that, like you said. I think it’s important to keep in mind that we should not put all our action to, in the same way." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "That’s why I’m never talking about digital transformation of the state, never. I’m talking about digital transition or adaptation. I think we have to be clever on our move. We have to keep in mind that some of our societal aspects, some of our political aspects, have to keep in real hands." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "We have to keep the hand on them. I take just one example. I’m not sure that online vote can replace the traditional vote. We have seen in different election, in different experimentation that it can be very dangerous and manipulated." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "I’m taking one question from Slido, and then one more question from the floor. The question on Slido says, “How does privacy and information security fit in the digital nation? How do you propose to address the privacy of the citizens?” Derek, please?" }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I love how I keep going first, too. I don’t get much of a chance to warm up here. I think a couple things. I think part of it is giving people more control over their data will be a key thing to helping ensure their privacy." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "That each person is able to choose how and when they share their data, and what that looks like. I think the other part of it is being clear what spaces are public spaces, what spaces are private spaces, and what spaces are pseudo public/private, and how that works within those spaces will help as well." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Giving people the information to allow them to protect their privacy when they want to, or to engage in spaces made much more open when they want to. I think an interesting question that I’m curious, in response to that question, is how our understanding of privacy is going to shift and change in the coming years." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Each of these words and how I understand them within a cultural context is fluid. It changes with time. I think privacy is going to be the term that’s really going to be reimagined over the next 5, 10, 15 years. I don’t know where that’s going, but I am really curious, because I think it is going to shift a lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My question, I think the idea for privacy and security should not be confused. I’m going to answer the two separately. For cyber security, and this is also actually an answer to the lack of IT budget, we will very soon increase massively the IT budget." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Starting next year, I think, for all the government, major projects, there must be five percent, regardless of whether it’s information projects or not, to be dedicated to cyber security. If it’s smaller projects, it’s six percent. If it’s an even smaller project, it’s seven or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, it’s under one percent, but it will jump by a very large degree just by the virtue of having all the government procurements be including cyber security as a very strong element, at least five percent of the total project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is because we really want a good relationship with, for example, the HITCON community and the other white hat hacker industry and civil society in Taiwan. We want those white hat people to work with our system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like when I set up the Sandstorm system in PDIS, I worked with Def Corps and the other people to do penetration testing and so on. We make sure that they feel they have contribution to the society. They are paid very well. They get meetings with presidents every once in a while, so they don’t go to the dark side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very, very important. [laughs] The dark side always have more cookies. That is part of our procurement strategy. For data privacy, I think I would just want to say one thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we think of data, control of data, or whatever, we’re using a metaphor that treats data as an object, as an asset. I think this is a very dangerous view. This is my personal opinion, but also my opinion as Digital Minister as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think data should be seen as the beginning of a relationship. If you have data in somebody else’s control, that begins a relationship where you can ask, “Where have my data gone? How are you using for a purpose?” and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which we translate to 問責（hold-to-account） here. The people controlling the data, they have responsibility to keep it updated, to keep you informed, to get the propagated content and so on, which we translate as 當責（be accountable） here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need to build accountability mechanism between it that makes these kind of bridges possible. The GDPR is a good start, but it doesn’t go far enough. We really need to go even farther than the GDPR for the mechanism in between that we can protect people’s privacy by design." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what we call 課責機制（accountability mechanism）. Interestingly, all those different words, 問責、當責、課責, all translate back to accountability. It shows that accountability is a dynamic relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we think of data accountability, it should be seen a relationship, and not data as OIO, as asset, or as objects." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "One more question from the floor, please." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Thank you, Audrey, Derek, Clément, Perry, and PM for this panel. It was very, very inspiring. I think that the representation has explained on how existing nations like Taiwan, Canada, or France are addressing new models, new methodologies, thanks to digital technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The title of the panel was, “Imagining a Digital Nation.” I’m wondering if any of you have any idea of how to go one step beyond. I mean not only managing the digital capabilities of the existing nations, but to imagine new nations that might not exist in our political maps, but in data of online communities." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Platform-based economies might emerge from the geography of the Internet, like nations that don’t exist right now in the map, but they can be imagined with this new paradigm." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Another easy question for you, Derek." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Thanks, guys. Actually, could someone repeat the question? I could only get bits and pieces of it. Short version of the question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I was asking if you can imagine a digital nation that might not exist at this moment, but that can emerge from the Internet, out of the geographical frontiers that exist right now, new kind of nations because of the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m sorry." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Thanks, guys." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Could we imagine a digital nation? I think so. I’m trying to think of the author. I’ve been reading a bunch of authors who’ve been talking about this concept, about how the Internet is causing us to almost become like an interconnected organism." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "There’s a collective identity that’s developing as we become more and more interconnected. The Internet’s forming this societal, global human brain that’s really challenging our concept and nation-states and borders." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "We’re trying to figure out what that exactly means. I think is going to force us to really reimagine what nation-states look like, or if they exist in the future. I think these are actually all really interesting questions." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "Estonia’s doing some interesting stuff with their e-citizen system, that anyone can become a citizen of Estonia. Businesses can as well. That’s really shifting the idea of borders as well. I’m not really answering your question, but I am acknowledging that I think you’re touching on something that we’re going to be wrestling with more and more in the years to come." }, { "speaker": "Derek Alton", "speech": "I’m going to pass this to the other panelists, who I think will have better answers." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "Audrey, please." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People know I’m a conservative anarchist. An anarchist is someone who works to make sure that the power is horizontal and not vertical. I think Internet still today, the Internet Society, the Internet mechanism, is itself sovereign." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is the largest sovereign system that is not part of any multilateral system. It doesn’t report to the UN ITU, although it runs a forum with it. It doesn’t report to the US government. It spun off after Snowden. It has its own legitimacy mechanism that is built entirely out of radical transparency and radical participation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very easy to imagine a digital nation, because that is the Internet. The Internet is a digital nation. Whether it can keep its identity as sovereign is everybody’s question. There are different world orders now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are people who are Balkanizing the Internet by essentially turning it into intranets. There are people who are introducing new innovations on Internet that is basically surveillance technologies that is not for anybody’s benefit but theirs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If Internet loses its own legitimacy, then it doesn’t have an army. It doesn’t have a navy. It will lose its sovereignty. I think it’s in all our best interest to participate in Internet governance, make sure that the Internet can keep its sovereignty, and project its values back to the terrestrial beings." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "Just a few words, because I’m a research, so I used to observe more than imagine. I guess in my presentation, I gave you some elements with my normative perspective. I think a large part of my job is to make a civic arrangement, to read, to make a normative and philosophical perspective, and to put it on trial with what I can observe in reality." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "From the normative part, I consider there is two main issues for the digital state. There is the question of infrastructure, with the openness, security, and everything. That’s the administration part for, like I said, a state who is able to adapt to the new issues offered by digital." }, { "speaker": "Clément Mabi", "speech": "The second one is about the mobilization of the society. If you are offering some openness, some open tools, you need to have a multitude to use them. If nobody is able to take the opportunity you are giving to the citizen, you would not have your digital nation. You have both to manage, to include people, and to give them infrastructures." }, { "speaker": "Po-min Wu", "speech": "I think that it’s for this session. Thank you, everyone, for your participation. The next session has already started at conference room R0. If you want to go there, please proceed. Thanks, everyone, again." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "This will be on SayIt, right? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You will be on SayIt. You did your homework. That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Thank you very much. I have..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Two name cards?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Two cards, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One is the TfD?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "TfD is one. The other is my new job for a political party." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re a party member now?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is this a new party?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "It’s a new party." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Future Forward\"." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Yeah. For next year election, we’re going to have the election at the 24th of February." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You will be a candidate?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Although I’m not your constituent..." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I can do my recording?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "[laughs] Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s always good to have backup." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I have to finish my paper in next two day, maybe tomorrow. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I think it’s not going to take long." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK. We have 40 minutes, an hour. No problem." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "The question is about the open government, about your policy, and also how you led that with the civic tech. Let me check my note. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Before that, I should officially introduce myself. I’m Klaikong Vaidhyakarn from Thailand. Right now, I working for the Future Forward Party, but I’m also the director of the Social Technology Institute. We working on the promote open data in Thailand, also try to support tech social enterprise in Thailand." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "It’s like we open a hackathon and have some group that have the idea about the technology to solve the social problem. We support them maybe to be the new social enterprise or to do the project that have some product that can be used for the public." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "For example, disaster risk reduction, health promotion, and also transparency. I got the grant for do the research here about how success of civic tech in Taiwan and also how to replicate some kind of that in Thailand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You were in the g0v Summit, right?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Yes, but I missed your session." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh. You went to the larger hall, the g0v, about how the community works with government? You went into that panel? Or the general one?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "No, actually I missed that panel. [laughs] Yes, I’m sorry about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the transcript, everything I said during my panel is on SayIt now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Of course, yeah. That one is about the question about the civic tech and open government, so you are the digital minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In charge of social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Can I ask about the policy about the open government in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, certainly. In Taiwan, we have a strong model of devolution, especially with the six municipalities. Open government happens in two levels -- the municipal and city and county level, and the central administration level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The central administration mostly work on the four pillars of open government, which I will explain in detail. We work on transparency, making sure that all our regulation or our budget or our data that’s part of the freedom of information is available in a structured form. That’s transparency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We work on participation. For example, people have... In addition to the right to vote, now 18 years old can do referendums now. They can, for example, work on e-petition, where after 5,000 people collected e-petition signatures, ministers need to come and respond." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can comment on each and every budget item. They can comment on each and every regulation change that’s announced for 60 days before every regulation change and proposed bill. All of this is on a national e-participation platform. That’s the Join platform, join.g0v.tw." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unlike many other countries, we don’t have three or four platforms for these functions. All of it is on the Join platform. The central administration provides free hosting for other branch of the government to consult with people with the same system, but a different domain name." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have the Corrective Yuan here. It’s a different branch of government that does the auditing and accountability. Whenever an administration want to try something that is new that they don’t have the accounting principle yet, they can use the same Join platform to ask people what they care about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, Taipei City, instead of subsidizing the disabled people to run their shops, are now renting, for one dollar a month, a good space for them to run their social enterprises. It’s a shifting, not subsidizing, to social entrepreneurship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very easy to audit, but this is very hard. For Pay for Success and so on to work, you have to have a lot of evidence. Normally, the Corrective Yuan, if they don’t have popular support, they will block this kind of administrative innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with the Join platform, all they have to do is running a public consultation saying, \"Taipei City is running this. Do you have any fear? Any uncertainty? Any doubt?\" We kind of are jealous, because when we ask for their recommendation, maybe only 30 people came. When the Corrective Yuan ask, \"What’s your worries?\" hundreds of people [laughs] express their worries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They collect those worries, and send it to the minister in charge of social innovation, to me, saying, \"People have those nine worries. Please give us a clear guidance of how to do accounting on these.\" I gave them, and now they established a new accounting mechanism. Then, of course, the administrative innovation can happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As we can see, this is a very good collaboration, both side using collective intelligence. Then, the Corrective Yuan can say, \"OK, I am now working with the will of the people,\" instead of just a few accountants. That is Corrective. We also use the same system to share it with local and municipal governments. Like Taipei city used the Join platform for e-petition also, but their e-petition is tied to the i-Voting system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While our e-petition is more about demanding an explanation of facts, having face-to-face meetings to share feelings, and to make a \"How may we?\" question together, like the first diamond, in Taipei City, they actually connect to the second diamond by having the i-Voting system be the final decision-making process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They use our platform to do the first stage and use i-Voting for the second stage to connect the two diamonds. That is, again, a good participation example." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "This is under your office? The platform initiated by you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, I’m a conservative anarchist, so I don’t give orders. What I mostly do is to make sure the stakeholders meet together, find that is something that’s a common value. I wouldn’t say it’s my office actually doing the work. The platform is commissioned and operated by the National Development Council." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "You create the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Synergy, yes." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "...ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. This space also, I provide my time. Every Wednesday, I’m here, but I’m not ordering anyone to do anything. I’m just making sure our conversation’s online, so people who are supporting your work can find you and contact you. That’s my main work, is a channel." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Your way of work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, that’s participation. The third pillar is accountability. We work to make the policymaking itself accountable and have an account of how a policy came to be. The key work here is in our Freedom of Information Act, the FOI only applies after a decision is made, just like pretty much every other country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A citizen can demand information of the \"what?\" of decision-making, but they cannot demand information about the \"why?\" because that is before the decision is made, this drafting period. According to most of the FOIA law, in the drafting period you cannot request information about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At most, we would tell you how many people we have consulted. The brainstorming process, because the theme may change many times before the career public service bring it to the ministry, if the minister says, \"No, it’s not a good idea,\" then none of this context is visible to the public." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if the minister says yes, and the publishing of the account of policymaking is useful for the public, in our FOIA Law, there is a clause that says if the official deem that this drafting period is useful for the public, then they may publish it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very difficult, because if you are a director general of an agency, you must first convince your deputy minister. Your minister might want to convince the Premier to publish this contextual information before policymaking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the government, I said, \"Any policy that I am the chair I deem it for public good for everybody to see.\" Even if the policy does not come to pass, our discussion is already online. That’s the accountability." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we make new policies that’s under my purview, like e-sport, e-gaming, social innovation plan, everybody know the why leading to this point of conversation. That’s why we call the policymaking accountability." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, it’s about inclusion. Inclusion means...In open government it’s very clear that people who are very good with words, lawyers, or people who are very good with numbers, like coders, they’re privileged because they can make cases using open data. They can make cases using data pre-visualization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can even build new governance system using distributed ledger technology. Other people who are not that versed in either text or code is at a disadvantage. In many countries, the more open data there is, the more transparency and participation space there is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It actually creates space for a civil society, but only if you’re a lawyer or a coder, and that’s something we don’t want to see happen here in Taiwan. We make sure that the people who are wise will know a lot about their local context. We don’t force them to make their cases in numbers or in law, because it’s not their native language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The native language is in their indigenous nation, is in their rural community, is in their coop. If we make it so that they have to travel all the way to Taipei to meet me here to give a 40-minute presentation, it doesn’t work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s why I made this system of what we call a regional innovation system, where I go to a rural place. I go to an indigenous tribe and maybe live there for a day or two, and then I meet everybody who’s working on social innovation, and they can say which sustainable work they’re working on a roundtable." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the roundtable, what we’re doing is that we project what I see to the Social Innovation Lab. Every other Tuesday or so, 12 ministries meet in a meeting space there, and they see through my eyes what the people there are like, what they feel like. When they ask a question, the minister here must answer. It’s a two-way video conferencing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then if the ministry...Usually if you write them, they will say, \"Oh, I’m ministry A. This is ministry B’s business.\" And ministry U will say, \"Oh, this is ministry V’s business.\" Because all the 12 ministers are in the same room, they cannot do that, because they’re sitting right next to them, so they will figure something else." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Yeah, together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, together and in real-time response. Then, because everything is radically transparent, all the transcript is on the web, so they’re not working just the benefit of one single social innovator, but rather for the public good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It relaxes them a lot, because first, they get a credit. Everybody has names on it, so everybody will know that this is career public service that is doing the inclusion, that makes financial inclusion, makes social inclusion. Second, they don’t have risk. If this thing doesn’t work, it is my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Third is that it saves them time, because they have been asked this over and over, like 40 phone calls, but everyone is tired of explaining the problem without delivering a solution. Now we have a system called the sandbox. You can try for a year for alternate regulation. If it’s a good idea, we..." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "...try and learn." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s not a good idea, we learn that we must innovate somewhere else, and so it reduced the risk, saved the job, their work, the workload, and also even credibility." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "You have to expect for people to do something wrong in the sandbox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a design for inclusion, so that’s transparency, participation, accountability, and inclusion. That’s the central administrations of the government strategy." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I see. [laughs] Yeah, so that is...In Taiwan by the open government, why is so important after the Sunflower Movement in your opinion?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the Sunflower Movement is a demo. It’s a demonstration but it’s not protesting something. It’s a demo that you can have hundreds of different NGOs, and like 20 large NGO, each one is pretty vertical, but through Occupy they link together, become something horizontal, and with half a million people on the street, they’re cross-pollinating between the different NGOs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people who occupied the parliament, they initially only have maybe a very vague idea of what this Occupy is trying to do, but after people converge on a consensus, at the end the people occupied the parliament, have a very clear set of like five points that is deliberated by people on the street, and so they have legitimacy, their political will." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the last day, the head of the parliament agreed to their demand, and so for the people who occupied inside the parliament it’s a victory. Of course, people in the different NGOs, they don’t always get their demand met by Sunflower." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What they gain is new solidarity with horizontal power, because maybe their constituents are a aging population, maybe younger people no longer care that much about that large NGOs, but through Sunflower movement, they recruit and build connection with new media, with civic media, with crowd funders, with people who have talents in design, and so new collaboration is fostered." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this, at the end of that year, the mayoral election, basically anyone who oppose the Occupy lose the election. Anyone who participate or support the Occupy or use open government in their platform, in particular Mayor Lai Ching-Te and Mayor Ko Wen-je in that year both use open government as their main platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The won a lot. That really gave legitimacy to the open government. That made the central administration...After the election, the premier resigned. The new premier, an engineer, said, \"OK, so now open throughout is our national direction.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Next year, we’re going to be number one on Open Data Index and that become the national direction. It’s led by the Occupy, realized by the municipals, and then finally ratified at a administration level, all within the same year." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Wow. In your opinion, how civic tech, open government, and your government support each other?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Civic tech is kind of the connector of social innovation. In social innovation in Taiwan, what we mean is anyone working for a clear, sustainable goal that can reconfigure the society, so that things that were previously in tension can support each other. That’s innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To do this, you need to solve what we call \"wicked problems,\" or problems that require coordination. Things are the way they were because nobody can make a unilateral move to make things better. In economic terms, it’s the Nash Equilibrium. Things were like that because it already is at Nash Equilibrium. You cannot make things better by acting alone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Civic tech brings a new player into this game, that is, the power of data and code. With data and code, previously you have to make trade-offs. Now, maybe you don’t have to make trade-offs anymore. For example, before, the first person to donate to a new NGO is at a disadvantage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe the NGO does not deliver. Maybe not enough people support their cause. The campaign may not happen, so they waste at least a opportunity cost. Everybody else is free riders after a certain while. The early adopters cannot bootstrap a NGO very easily." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with civic tech, you can have crowdfunding. You can even have subscription-based crowdfunding. You can even have blockchains to support a token-based crowdfunding. Civic tech can make the formula, the incentive, different, so that people are more incentivized to participate, even on a early level, which is where, really, the social entrepreneurship needs the social resources." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Civic tech, to my mind, is basically the enabling technology for social innovation. It doesn’t replace social innovation. Of course, you still have to live with indigenous people to understand what they really want, but at least you can incentivize more people to live with the indigenous people." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Through their technology platform?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Why, in your social innovation, would you think it’s a way to create more social enterprise?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To support social entrepreneurship, not to create. Otherwise, it would be state-owned enterprise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t do that. [laughs] We support social entrepreneurship." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Should not use that word. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They reason why is that the government, we can only change our direction once every year. That’s how the national budget works. Emerging social issues, they don’t wait for the budget cycle. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, the government is not very well equipped to have a rapid response to a emergent social innovation or a social situation. That’s why we have the sandbox system, to make new, emergent players willing to try with us in a co-creation relationship, instead of a law-breaking relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sandbox is only for regulatory or place-based problems. Of course, we can do that, but for many other issues, for example a aging population, for example the loss of identity of many smaller townships, it’s not about a low or a regulation change. It doesn’t matter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re not suffering because of we don’t have a law for anything. They’re suffering because the constitutive power of the community is changing. Maybe they all went to large cities. Maybe they don’t care about their local culture anymore. Maybe their traditional language is disappearing, and no laws can completely solve that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why we need to encourage social entrepreneurship is because they help us set a direction. They can talk with the local people. They can be the local people. They can talk with the people to set a common will of the community, and then we will know how to make our budget wisely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we just allocate budget, then it is a blunt tool. We can only allocate toward things that we already know. Social entrepreneurship is about discovering things we don’t know, the entire society don’t know. By social entrepreneurship, we make sure that it’s embedded in the education system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can already do social entrepreneurship, starting next year, in high school or even primary school. This year, you can already do it as part of your college degree. You can have a capstone project that solves a social need through the USR system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we’re saying is that, even if you don’t end up being a proper B corp, Yunus corp, or whatever, there’s a Call You start for that. Even if you don’t actually create a enterprise to be a social enterprise, you can still do social entrepreneurship while you’re a student to learn things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The society is better, because they near to see university as something that’s not just for the elites, but something that connects well with the community. A important part of our social innovation plan is to have the university to be in the forefront, looking for emergent issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can respond much faster because, every session, the teacher, the professor, can invite a different community. It’s not like a budget. It’s not like the legislative. They can change every week, so they can rapidly iterate. The national government can look at two years of iteration by all universities, and reset our expectations, our plans, on new solutions." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "This place, Social Innovation Lab, it also have this place on other provinces?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re replicating it, starting next year. This place is special, because it’s co-created. The fact that we have a kitchen, we have a chef -- if you go to the kitchen, it smells very good right now -- the fact that I’m here every Wednesday, the fact that it opens until 11:00 PM, everything is co-created." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, it’s not like other cities don’t have the room. It’s just it used to be a top-down process. What we are exporting is not the physical space, but rather the co-creation, the social infrastructure. Any city, like Taichung City, who’s willing to engage with stakeholders in co-creation, we say, \"OK, now you can run Social Innovation Lab in your municipality.\"" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Your office, PDIS, what are the exactly role of the PDIS and how their role to support the social innovation, also the people participation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "PDIS is the Public Digital Innovation Space. We’re not a office. We’re a space. We’re actually six offline space and about five online spaces. We’re literally just space. You’re now in PDIS, because here is one space of PDIS. The second floor of that building, the A9, I think, is also a space in PDIS. In the basement, for VR experiment, is also a space in PDIS." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just here in Social Innovation Lab, there are three spaces for PDIS. In the administration building in Zhongxiao East Road there’s also three space. There’s the Digital Minister’s office that is part of PDIS. There’s the office of the Chief Commissioner of National Development Council. She donated her office to be part of PDIS." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the third floor of the administration, as part of the Education, Science and Culture, the ESC Department, there’s also a room for about nine people that’s also part of PDIS. Three spaces here, three spaces in administration building, so we’re six physical spaces. Anyone can freely flow between those spaces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the cabinet, location-independence, voluntary association, and radical transparency are my compact, so anyone who work with PDIS also enjoy..." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "It’s like a liquid administration. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, it’s entirely horizontal. Everybody rank themself, score themself. I don’t give them scoring. I agree with the Secretary General that PDIS can poach, at most, one person from each ministry. We have 33 ministries now, so we can have, at most, 33 people. Now, we have about 22." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, their ministry are still paying their salary while they’re in PDIS. We do co-creation workshops. We do stand-up meetings. We use the Agile Kanban and we use..." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Agile. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...the entire methodology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To create something that is of core value to all the ministries, how to rebuild trust in the society, this is why we unite together. We may have people who care about culture more. We may have people who care about national communication. For example, the Minister of Interior maybe care about the social order." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They care about different things. It’s not like we agree, but we don’t have to agree, because this is a space where we brainstorm something in social innovation, in open government, that is to the benefit of everyone. This is a entirely horizontal space that connect then with the Participation Officer Network, which is about 60 or so people, again in every ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The whole reason is that, first, we make sure that the entire society know what each ministry care about. They’re like 30 non-profits. They care about different things. [laughs] Also, we’re like the central co-op, because people pay tax. They vote. It’s like a co-op." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a central co-op to unite the 32 charities and the central bank, which must make money, into a governance structure. That structure is not very visible from the outside. What we’re making is that it’s like a VR glass. You can put on VR glass and feel how it’s like to be a digital minister and to make sure that all the different tensions and co-creation process is visible to the entire society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Their idea is not just idea in the vacuum, but they read our transcript and give us very good suggestions based on exactly the context of co-creation. I always say PDIS is just a space for collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "All of this, all of the ecosystem, it support open government, and it make more open data?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and open innovation and an open mind and open will. If you use the Theory of U, it’s all the different levels." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Thank you for the interview. Would you mind if I make some small video clip?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Video clip." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have to talk into the camera or something?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Just use the mobile phone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What would you like me to say?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "It’s about open government and democracy in the future." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m going to talk about what?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Your idea about open government and the future of the democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Let me do the video. I have the phone here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a rule here, though. If you record, I’m going to also record." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK. Zach will help me to do that." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "No problem. Here, we have the same [laughs] similar files, equipment. This like a low-cost mobile journalism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mobile journalism, I like the word. Zach will just take this, and I will remote-control the recording." }, { "speaker": "Zach Huang", "speech": "...hold it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All you have to do is hit play." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I will turn off the screen lock." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Display, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK. Take your time. I’m not in a rush. We have 10 more minutes." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is this OK? You want to sit next to me?" }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Yeah. It’s just in the same frame." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the same frame, OK. Maybe Zach..." }, { "speaker": "Zach Huang", "speech": "I got it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...can also take us in the same frame." }, { "speaker": "Zach Huang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need to make sure that the UN Global goes in the frame." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I start recording. Are these live?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s just recording." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I’m with Audrey Tang, the digital minister and acting social innovation minister. I have the question about the open government, because our party also put the open government in the policy. I would like to know your idea about open government and the future of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through radio and television, one person can speak to millions of people, but now, for the first time, we can listen to millions of the people over the Internet. Like many of you, I’m a digital migrant. 22 years ago, I moved into the Internet when I was still young and drop out of high school." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the cyberspace, just like in the physical world, the new migrants and the natives, we have much to learn from each other. Our particular approach is through open data and through open space. Open data turns raw measurements into social objects, so people can gather around budgets, around laws, around regulations. These become topics of discussion, just like today’s weather." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Open space lens our individual feelings into shared reflections. Within a reflective space, we gradually become aware of ourselves and we form a crowd, the demos in the democracy. Transparent like a glass, reflective like a mirror, these are the two democratic properties of the future spaces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are the early makers of digital democracy in the 21st century. We’re like the early makers of reflecting telescopes in the 17th century. We’re full of innovations. We want to look at all the stars." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally speaking, I’m very happy to learn with our international friends in making an inventory, a catalog, of such innovations around the world. Only through learning with each other can we truly enter a age of science, and then eventually going beyond it into a age of reflection. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "Thank you. Actually, I know it’s, yeah, but I’m thinking it’s not appropriate ask you for a comment for the next election of Thailand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I cannot be seen as partial to any party in Taiwan. The whole approach relies on the fact that I’m not partial to any ministry. If I’m partial to a party, every party has their favorite ministry. The Green Party would have a favorite in the Environmental Protection Agency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would destroy the multi-stakeholder nature of PDIS, which is that we’re not partial to any ministry. Again, international parties have your favorite ministries, as well, I’m sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So I cannot be seen as partial to any party." }, { "speaker": "Klaikong Vaidhyakarn", "speech": "I understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I was hoping at some point to book an official interview with you. I was not imagining that was today, I guess I just wanted to hang out with you both. Is that OK?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you want the official interview, what’s your estimated date for that?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m just working on a consent form, which shouldn’t take that long, but I’m trying to be thoughtful about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A consent form?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, I guess I’m trying to be conscious of the fact that some won’t talk to me unless everything is totally open. I know you would be one, since you are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...radically transparent. We can publish the entire conversation to the Internet under Creative Commons Zero, which is public domain." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think it’s that I’m not booking. I haven’t booked appointments yet until I think through how to offer that. Some people in my community see transparency as not, they have different degrees of transparency that they’re comfortable with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but this conversation would be one that’s already happened. It’s just like something that’s copyright that’s expired. It’s like something that’s written in the 18th century." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "As in, you’ve spoken about it already?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I mean we can release it into the public domain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like Plato. In your research, you can always use Plato." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, I guess maybe by example, I’m a part of a group that we have some members who have been harassed in the past, or had stalkers. They came into our group and saw, “Oh, they’re using Slack,” and Slack isn’t open by default." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see. But this is not the same. We are not publishing the audio file. We’re making an English transcript. All the participants can edit it for 10 days. They get to take out the parts they are not comfortable with." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, I saw your policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, if they don’t like to appear under their real name, they can choose a pseudonym." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, I didn’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all negotiable." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Is that an updated policy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s the same policy." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, I hadn’t caught that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the same policy. It’s always like that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What about when someone wants their identity to go into a big pseudo-handle that’s anonymous, but everyone’s in the same bucket?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, so, in the recent vTaiwan consultations, of the three ones brung by the Guo Ju law firm, the first one was like that. They talk with all the government, public service. They don’t want to be reidentified at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody is like, summary opinion. Every speaker is summary opinion. You cannot guess who is that proposed that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How would I know this?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m OK to be recorded, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How would I know this going...? I guess I’d read the policy on how you speak with people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my office hour visit protocol." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I didn’t know the nuance of it. I guess I knew there was a week to review." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, 10 days, but yes." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "10 days. I think we were having conversations that were probably rehashing and redoing some of the conversations that you had had internally about this. Is there a version of that protocol that includes the options, like a flatter...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s the same protocol. The protocol already says you can take out anything that, by confidentiality, you would not want people to know." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think it’s the spectrum that I don’t think we were clear on, as outsiders who were following and excited, but we started to reinvent, it sounds like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very nuanced. Just exactly as you said, there are in-jokes that people outside this conversation will just not get it. When we publish, we just take those in-jokes out, because it doesn’t contribute to the context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In its most extreme form, I had a journalist interviewing me, and actually, also two representative from AmCham, the American Chamber. They just asked me a lot of questions, and I provide answers, but they don’t want people to know what they have asked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They took out everything that they spoke out, so it’s just my answers. That’s still valid, because they say, by AmCham confidentiality, whatever of their firm they work with, they wouldn’t allow their employees to disclose what question they have asked the minister publicly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am like, “But my words are my words.” They are fine with me publishing my words." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Is this falling in the default to open territory, where it’s like the most open, and people negotiate retraction?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You must spend effort for parts of it to be not open, because you have to actually go in and edit away every sentence. Then if you do nothing, of course, then it’s open." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s so interesting. I think the part we were thinking through is maybe from the opposite, the clarity, maybe. Maybe on the outside, we didn’t see clarity to all the options that were available." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Some people, I guess it would seem like a bad outcome if someone who was comfortable asking lots of probing questions -- “Oh, can I do this? Can I do this? Can I do this?” -- then they would have more understanding than someone who was a little reluctant or felt pressured." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but the fact that you actually go back and take out those pressing questions, or at least make it more mild, it actually creates a room for negotiation." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What about the license? Is that ever negotiable?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is negotiable. Everything I say is public domain, CC0. Now, if you allow for us to publish, for example, the YouTube video, then we always ask CC BY attribution, but even that is negotiable. You can choose, for example, BY-SA." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you are of a ShareAlike mindset, we agree with ShareAlike as well. That is negotiable." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How did I miss all of this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It just defaults to common attribution for the YouTube, and on the Talk PDIS also, there’s a public interview section that says very clearly, “Everything here is CC BY 4.0.” If you don’t agree with CC BY 4.0, then you can ask me on some other forum. It’s like open is the norm, but we understand there is nuances to the norm." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m trying to think through all the pieces that we discussed separately, I guess. Another was around, we were calling it “humane transparency,” I think was the term that we used, which you might have come across the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It was also navigating the situation where maybe you have Open Space Technology. People are wandering in and out, and they maybe aren’t aware that there’s a recorder on the table. It’s not making itself known." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, you have to put it very clear on the entrance." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I guess we were also wondering how to account for if someone’s talking, they start feeling really natural, and they’re just like, talk, talk, talk. Maybe then they realize, maybe three minutes into a certain part of the conversation, that they’ve been talking very liberally about a person who they’re not comfortable talking about." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Maybe having a timer in the middle of the table, where you know the time code, and they can say, “Oh, four minutes back from this point,” to make it so when they review, it’s easy for them. It’s not painful. It’s not something that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, they did that in g0v summit, during the lightning talk." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "So awesome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is someone from somewhere that’s not as liberal as Taiwan that says, “During my talk, please mute, and turn the camera toward the audience.” You see some of the facial reaction of the audience, but you don’t see them talking. Actually, only the final words..." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "The last sentence. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Only the final sentence was visible and audible, which is, “Please fight for our freedom with the freedom that you have.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Audrey, I’m honored to get the “it’s on the next slide” version of your life." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Like, “That’s in another slide.” I guess I have to just write this for myself, and maybe make a little form for people to fill out in advance. I get nervous about the interviews, I think. I’m taking my time to understand, and had lots of meetings, but at some point, it’s procrastination. I need to stay away from that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the best thing is just do it incrementally. The best questions come from your initial, like we did that with Tom Atlee. The first interview with him, he has all these preconceptions about what Taiwan, about the Sunflower Movement, and things like that that he read from, I’m sure, Wired or whatever other media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wouldn’t say “wildly” inaccurate, but somewhat inaccurate descriptions. Then he had a conception that vTaiwan is very process-based, that it is basically like blockchain, instead of a set of pre-agreed conditions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There were some weird notions in people’s minds. I’m sure our flow chart doesn’t help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then he discovered no, it’s just a bunch of people enjoying food every Wednesday, having fun. Then we had two other conversations. Every time he brought someone from the dynamic facilitation, or from audio, video, because there’s these components in vTaiwan as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You ask a question from the angle, once he realized that this is actually not code-based governance, as he thought blockchain governance is." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s funny. There’s a quote that I think Liz got from you, just in personal conversation. It was in a draft, but then I’ve never seen it anywhere else in the world. I love it, I use it a lot, and I try to attribute you every time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t mind." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s that vTaiwan is like a “weightless exoskeleton of technology and documentation.” That feels so true. Do you still stick by that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course. I also say a lot of crazy things to Liz, like, “Property is theft from the nature, and identity is theft from the self.” [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "She does like discussing property and identity, yeah. Do you have any thoughts on transparency as...I sometimes find it difficult when people are very hard-line on transparency, which I think I sometimes imagined you were, but it doesn’t seem like you are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "When people feel entitled to the gift of a transparent record. It’s hard to, mental models for that, for discussing it. Some people feel entitlement to government data, which is perhaps maybe more understandable, but to transcripts sometimes, to on-the-record discussions." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m really attached to the idea of gifts, because I think that’s something that we all really, a lot of understanding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we’re donating our voice to the public. This is what we’re doing." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, it’s a gift to the commons. It feels like there’s a lot of that around data. Maybe the most fine-grain data that we might store in personal data stores, but also anonymized versions of that, which maybe the value to the commons is still very high, but the loss of the gift, it doesn’t feel that high, because it’s all aggregated with other..." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I don’t know, just that idea of transparency as a gift." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not even a loss, because basically, you still have a copy." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "You become understood and legible to systems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You become understood. It’s a beginning of a conversation or a relationship. Basically, I never see data as some tangible asset. I always see data as a beginning of a relationship, like data flow. If it doesn’t flow, it doesn’t go anywhere." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If information wants to be free, then data wants to flow. The idea, very simply put, is that once your personal data is in somebody else’s care, you can start asking what they’re doing with it. They can be held accountable for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can have a discussion about the proper use, and even what purpose means, and things like that. It enables a whole different spectrum of conversation once you think of it as a relationship." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Sometimes, the transparency becomes passive if the system hides it, and people don’t know what’s being taken. They don’t know the granularity that it’s being taken with, whether it’s really coarse, or whether it’s super fine-grained." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why I always say, if there’s transparency without accountability, or if there’s participation, but with no inclusion, then that’s openwashing." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I worked on a crowdfunding platform at one point. It’s funny, with money, it feels..." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What it was trying to do was trying to create a world where, when people recognized they were getting value from someone, and that value was recurring, consistent, and it was forthcoming all the time, they could, on the platform give a weekly amount, a regular amount, that would come out without intention. Intention is hard to focus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like Patreon?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s totally Patreon, before Patreon came around, when after it started. It was based on an economy of gratitude, gifts, gifts where the money is detoxified. I give to you, because you’re doing something I like, and I want to give $5 a week, or a very small amount." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "By default, the platform did not assume that I wanted you to know who I was. I would start giving to you, and it would be continuous and recurring, but you wouldn’t know. When we next spoke, you wouldn’t feel like I was your micro-boss." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s still Patreon. Patreon is like that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Patreon can have identities attached." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, that’s only if the creator want to reward it at some tier." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think it’s the giver. I think the giver gets to decide." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The giver gets to decide, and also the creator can say, at some level, you start can have weekly conversation with me, at which point, I only allow real name donors, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think on Patreon, it’s easy for the giver to override. The default is very weak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It does change the dynamics a bit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it does." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Maybe you don’t want to know who I am, because then it changes our relationship. It collapses the possibility of the money. When the money defaults to not having identity and not having strings, then it’s like every possible person you meet is a potential donor of some amount." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "When you then are trying to figure out, what am I working on? What should I pivot to? You don’t ask anyone. You look into yourself, and you have this, like, “Oh, all my supporters, what do they want me to do?” It’s a little bit like looking to a personal god." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree. This is why I use Creative Commons Zero instead of attribution for all my code." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Sometimes, I’m not knowing where Creative Commons Zero comes in or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Zero means if you use my code, or you quote something I say, I don’t want attribution. I don’t require attribution. It’s just into the commons. It’s a little bit like the donation that you just mentioned, because then we’re just donating into this pool of knowledge, and there’s no need to have any name attached to it." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think this is where I was going with it. By default, I want to keep some entropy in our interaction. I want there to be a disorder. I don’t want to know who you are. That’s not full data, but that’s a very particular choice that not everyone who gives to me might have." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s the information. I don’t want full information. I’d prefer that I was able to set this default, and others knew that I had a very strong feeling for very strong reasons. There’s a bit of coercion in there, I guess." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, not at all. It’s just your API." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think it feels like maybe that’s not what I get, if it was a system where the default was fully open, and everyone else wrangled back the amount of data they put into a system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean like opt-out systems?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, if it’s a slow opt out, potentially like your policy sort of thing, where people have to know to ask for each little bit they want to take back. Then you might not get this unique, standardized experience of metadata." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think I don’t always know where to fall on that thinking. I feel like sometimes the system needs to standardize how much aggregation is happening, and how much anonymization. That’s the only thought there. Could I have a question on vTaiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Has anyone thought much about the in-person experience of creating an in-person analogue of Pol.is interactions? I’ve been really interested in a guy named Alex Pentland." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, Sandy." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Do you know him?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, of course." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "[laughs] “Of course.” It was a very frank response." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re on the same council of collective intelligence, and we met in Taiwan during WCIT." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I have a big intellectual crush on him. I’m still trying to grapple with the math." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social physics." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "His lab has developed an open source, they call them sociometric badges. It can tie to lots of other data, but at its simplest, you go in and put on a lanyard for a conference, and it has a thing that knows what all the other lanyards’ IDs are." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "As people move around through real physical worlds, talk, join groups, and spend time together, and then move, split up, and join other groups, and spend time together, they’re building a data set of how much time they spend together." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Then it also has a microphone that points up. It knows how much sharing of the building of the conversation is happening. It knows, “I’m talking too much, and probably have been since I came in the room.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m informationing, sending lots of information, but that’s not an equitable conversation if you’re not sharing information, because you know lots of things. The badges, I’m so curious whether they could be used to take data from...We’ve run workshops inspired by Pol.is and vTaiwan, where we do this live in the room." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "We say, “OK, over there, that corner is agree. That corner is disagree. If you unsure, go behind me.” You’re moving back and forth in between three spots, as you’re announcing the statements. “Who agrees, who disagrees?”" }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "In a digital space?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "In a physical space. It’s people are spending time together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We kind of do a little bit of that in our New York workshop." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, was that the one that, did CS run that part?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It felt really successful, because people saw, they were feeling who they spent more time with. They were crossing paths with people. They were recognizing who’s never beside them. The really cool part was that everyone could participate in, for lack of a better word, interrogating the unsure people." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Like, “Why are you unsure?” Is that statement a combination statement? Could you tease it apart? Could you frame it in a better way? There’s something that feels very satisfying about that, but I guess if we had to add an extra step, where we brought all of that into Pol.is, it feels like it would amazing to have it actually projected onscreen." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Using the sociometric badges, you could know, we’ve asked who agrees, who disagrees. Everyone’s staying still. That was the answer to this." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "You could build the Pol.is visualization on the fly, and help everyone in the room -- and maybe in other rooms, or maybe on the Internet, clicking it manually -- participate in building that understanding, like the emotional landscape. I don’t know if I have time for a project while here. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I have a hard time ordering..." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "I think this is very cool, if we can make them." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, I would love to." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "That sounds really fun, and that’s a fantastic idea." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I would love to let you borrow this book after. It’s the one where they’re discussing these sorts of things, and it’s so good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, “Social Physics.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I underlined lots." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a lot of free room in the basement, so feel free to..." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "There’s a basement here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "As in, I can store the book here until I come back?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I mean to run the workshops and Pol.is." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Live, whatever consultation. They did Dialogue in the Dark in the basement also. It’s basically a consensus workshop with blind people as facilitators, without light." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s so great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody feels very vulnerable, and we are literally just voices. The blind people are so confident, and can guide everybody." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s super cool. There’s a restaurant in Toronto that works like that, it inverts. There’s so much good stuff in the world and so little time. I just want to have infinite...Related to that, what is decent work related to vTaiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Does money have a place? Can money be sanitized, and actually allow people the focus to work on things without breaking the motivations?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean like grants?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel like grants distort, because there’s a grant maker. There’s a giver who has interests. Also, there’s a clockwork-ness. In Canada, if you get one grant, and you’re not in any way prepared for the time after that one grant, everything can shatter when the grant doesn’t arrive again." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "There’s conversations around creating a diversity of funding sources, like not just the big grant-making body, but also a hundred mini-bosses." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "You mean like crowdfunding?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah, crowd. That there’s this, you go from receiving the grant to having many supports through your efforts over that period, and maybe corporate supporters. But all carefully, thoughtfully, so that the desires of the supporters don’t..." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "There’ll always be some influence, but it’s detoxifying the signaling of the money, what the money-givers want, and separating it from their ability." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a bunch of people that’s coming to vTaiwan from time to time that works on blockchain governance, and working on this, it’s called URSA+ from Jay, which is about, your friend, actually." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Jay, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, who want to build a knowledge-sharing economy based on blockchain." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Blockchain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of people thinking about that. Just this morning, someone from DEXON & Cobinhood also visited." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I heard about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re also very interested, and they partner with someone who is like the only Taiwanese, and the only ethnic Hun, really, in Steve Jobs’s NeXT company, and went back to Apple when NeXT got by Apple, and has been core iOS or app store engineer for a few years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I joined the team the year he left, so we didn’t intersect in Apple. William Wei, that’s the name. He has an idea of, roughly speaking, what you talk about. We talked about quadratic voting and Vitalik’s new paper." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Is that like paid voting?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, an idea where people basically just pay for the politicians to commit to not do something. For example, if you care very much about, I don’t know, protecting a few historical buildings, then you can basically design a blockchain governance that tells everyone who runs for mayor to promise not to touch that historical building during their years as a mayor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The good thing about this funding model is that first, it’s independently verifiable. If a mayor promised to do something, it’s a matter of degree. If a mayor promised to not do something, it’s very easy to verify." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It seems like there could be a lot of moving pieces in this. Does it involve prediction markets?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think so." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It feels like a lot of pieces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It feels pretty detoxifying for me." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What about, do you have any feeling...I guess I feel more hopeful in the short term about Open Collective." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like co-ops?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yes. I think the entity, the type of organization that the bank account belongs to, is arbitrary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s the Enspiral movement in New Zealand that tries to reinvent co-ops, like the open co-op. Lots of people are working on this. In Taiwan, just next building is a bunch of people working on what they call platform co-ops." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How I understand Open Collective is more of a virtualizing of the nonprofit -- or certain organizational structures, but mostly nonprofits -- to, the great way Pia puts is that, “Oh, it used to be one website per server, and that made sense.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Then you virtualized those websites, and you had 400 websites on one server. Then it didn’t even matter. They’re doing that with nonprofits and the offerings that they have, whether liability insurance, lawyer, or payroll. You create one nonprofit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds like the Open Culture Foundation. That’s exactly what they are." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Some parts of it. I think maybe I didn’t understand where the money from Jothon was giving away the grants." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think they just have one rule, which is the g0v grants, the money never comes from the government. They can work on things that are working for people who want to overthrow governments, insurrection-friendly." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Insurrection?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Friendly, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I will admit, I feel much, much better about the Jothon, the g0v grants. I think I worry about someone having money, if it’s a community member, even if that they’re directing behaviors towards. What I find really interesting about Open Collective is that the relationship doesn’t need to involve giving any money." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s that your project, and you now have a zero slice in our bank account, which you can then find your own fundraising sponsor resources, and expand that slice. We’ll maintain a system that allows you to withdraw, that allows you manage repaying people, but it’s not giving money. It’s giving potential." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OCF didn’t start with the grants. It starts as a way for the Python community, for the CodeCup community, for the OpenStreetMap community, whatever to share legal resources and things like that, which is exactly as you describe. The grant came afterwards." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think it’s the zero slice, that there’s no money given. It’s opportunity, and it’s your motivation that will bring in the money. No one’s ever being shut down. It’s not like, “No, you don’t get the money.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s, “Oh, you have a crazy idea. We’re not even going to hold your money.” That feels really different. I have infinite ability to virtualize a bunch of projects if I don’t have to pay them. If they can now use that, my abilities, and go out and find their own, it’s a network effect. It’s net-centric fundraising." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think OCF didn’t do that part, mostly because that’s what the g0v hackathons have essentially became. There is now sufficient attendance from people with resources in the g0v bimonthly hackathons." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by the nature of pitching your hackathon project, become a de facto way of pitching your message to the people with resources. Then, of course, that is entirely Open Space Technology. We won’t shut anyone out, except for the code of conduct." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "You’ve been to the hackathon yet?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m hoping that one happens before I go back." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "The next one is on December 15th." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think I go back on the 17th." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Still, you can go there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good, so you can come." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yes. There’s some complications, because my visa’s technically done then, perhaps the day before. I think someone mentioned maybe, would it...Someone, I think, said it might be possible to do it the week before, or the weekend before, although I know it doesn’t move easily." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Or you can watch a video. We will have a live stream." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, but it’s much better if you are there, because then the dynamic will be very apparent why OCF didn’t do the Open Collective part. It’s because the community took care of that itself." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I can more easily intuit information out of physical reality. It’s harder to do that through all the low-bandwidth means." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think really, the venue itself, Academia Sinica, is providing the legitimacy of these whole experiments, because it doesn’t belong to the administration. It doesn’t belong to any party. It only reports to the president’s office." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Space is very scarce in Taipei, is my understanding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have the C-Lab, where you are." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Our event moves around every month in Toronto. We see huge effects of going to locations that are off the transit grid, or away from certain communities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Is there conversation about partnering with different venues for different audiences, different conveniences?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "vTaiwan didn’t start here. vTaiwan started in the office building of the Science & Technology Law Institute within the III, which is a pretty small meeting space. After I became the Digital Minister, for a while, it moved to Jaclyn Tsai’s office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After the Social Innovation Lab established, everybody moved from Jaclyn Tsai’s office back here. That’s the three venues vTaiwan has been. There’s, for a while, I think even before that, there was a coworking space in Handlino, which gets acquired by KKTIX, but that period is really short." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’ve been really inspired by how g0v offered infrastructure, like I think it was data and power during the protests, where actually in Toronto, the mesh networking community is talking about having and task force for that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s the idea that the least you are attached to any one place, the more resilient you are. It’s this exercise of moving, you start building capacities that exist outside any one of your hosts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You still have to have a home base to store all those equipments." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "We just have a bag that we bring around. We stay nimble." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, really? It’s miniaturized." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It keeps us from having some nice things. I don’t know, the moving around feels like an important way that we exercise our capacities, stay nimble, and keep...We’re going into novel environments all the time." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s like, we pick up people from those environments, and they come with us for a while, bring their energy, their interests, and networks." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Code for Japan does that. They have Summit in different city every year. They can bring those, because they sometimes collaborate with the local government. They can also bring those public servants together." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "They give them therein to the next city, so people will know in the city what happened. You can have more local people join in. They go around, and they say, people, one who was attending Code for Kobe, which is the city in Western Japan, the city of Kobe." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "I ask him why so many small cities have Code for Japan chapters. He said because people were working in Kobe City, and they joined Code for Kobe. When they go back to their city, their hometown, they started to do a similar thing there. It became like a league into Japan, but in Taiwan, that is not really happening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The high speed rails really changes things. The stops of high speed rails become one city. Then there’s everybody else. It creates a very uneven dynamic. I personally think, if at some point in the future, maybe 2030, whatever, but sometime in the future, we can have a round-Taiwan high speed rail network, or at least medium speed rail network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That actually solves the problem, unless you really want to go for the Jade Mountain, [laughs] it will actually go through all the major population centers. At the moment, it’s extremely westernized [laughs] toward Taiwan’s West Coast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, the proximity to high speed rail station directly determines conference attendance, civil society power, and things like that. It is true." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Every time when you were talking about the the AirBox Project. I was like, “OK, this is how our digital gap.” [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is our digital gap, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "She always had the introduction in her slide..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, about AirBox." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "...about AirBox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s this slide." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, every time I saw this..." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "...how digital...[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a shape of the digital." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "So many sensors. This is so great. I heard about this program, but I had not seen." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "You can see, there’s totally no, almost no, nothing happening in this area." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s wild." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "I’m sure their air are better than upper place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yeah, maybe they don’t feel as strongly. I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I find it so hard. I think I have this, I will use the word net-centric a lot, and networks. Then I keep wanting to average out, I have this tendency to want to figure out, what is the middle between what’s happening elsewhere, maybe what’s happening in my city, what’s happening with g0v." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What are the best parts of each that can be remixed? That would kill diversity of approaches." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, because everybody’s doing it, mixing it at a different way." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah. Sandy [mutters] these." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They’re like groups, and ways we work, is being machines for pulling the best ideas. Like groups being machines to explore, bring in the best ideas, and create cultural norms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s small world networking." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah. I think it’s just, I don’t know. I always want to morph parts of the community in my hometown, or offer, “Hey, they’re doing this great thing over there,” and see us move towards it. I think I have this imagining that people in other places would find that rewarding, too, or worth doing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It also feels like we’re all committed to our ways of doing things in ways that are a little sticky. I don’t know. I’m just trying to think through what that means." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The great thing about g0v is that there’s always a bunch of newcomers, not knowing anything about anything, and saying, “We’re just constantly going to do that, and we will hold them in a holding space.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s the power of naivete and newcomers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They don’t know how it works. They have ridiculous demands and unrealistic expectations. Then reality distorts, perhaps." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "We had a sticker who, like, “Go.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. That’s the kind of people I’m talking about." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "In the summit, in the second day, there was a mom with a kid who is..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deaf in one ear." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, deaf in one ear. The mother, she want to do something about the welfare to people like her daughter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because they are not classified as disabled, they don’t get disability benefits." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "She pitch on the stage, and she hold a conference, because she say she saw a sticker on the table. Do you know the skill of the stickers...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like Python, Ruby, and Go." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "This is one Go. She thought that is what told her to go. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She pick up the Go sticker, and then go for it." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "That is a wonderful mistake. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s so cool. I heard her lightning talk, but I missed a lot, I think, in translation. Everyone was speaking very fast. The interpreters were keeping up." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "[laughs] Interpreters, they are amazing." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I always answer the questions wrong when they’re like, “Ask questions of the audience,” raising it for question two, when I’m on question one. I feel like every conversation I’ve had this past week has been one that I wish there was an infinite number of people in the conversation to get, [laughs] just like, “Oh, what do you think about that thing that this person is saying?”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m trying to think. That was around social forces that maybe make us more inclined to dig into ideas that feel like they’re our own. Like, if I make up a life hack, it’s like, oh, every time I go to bed, and I have something to remember, I’ll hang my tie in front of the door or something." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Then I’m like, “Oh, this is great.” There’s this energy that I own this idea. I made it. It’s like, I felt like I built it from pieces that were around. There’s a stickiness to that. Just more so than if I just read about it, and didn’t have any ownership, like I didn’t build it, but just from ideas that were around..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have a word for it. It’s called social bricolage." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Social bricolage?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s cool. I love there’s a word. There’s a word for it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a word for everything." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I wonder what the relationship is between having that feedback of creation, like creating a thing from things you take out of your surroundings, like ideas, when you think you created that the world has already invented." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel like I accidentally put this into practice by getting really excited about the ideas of others. I will get animated, even though I know, I’ve heard this before. I’ve seen this. I don’t know. It’s like I still give them, “You invented this. Go with it. Run.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Somehow, it seems to fit in this place where we’re building overlapping communities." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Anyway, I don’t know. Lots of loose balloon thoughts. I don’t know where they live. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "This was a really good event, the summit. Can I ask thoughts on community building, and can I leave a blank space for asking, and just put things there? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "An empty, do I have to ask a specific question, or do you just have thoughts and feelings on community building?" }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "You mean this community, or about the g0v community?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The community in general." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "In general?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Maybe more vTaiwan, just since I think it’s its own thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She gave a talk about it." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I wish I could be in all the places." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, but that one is not actually about the community itself. Which part of this you want to hear?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How about money?" }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Money? Oh, we don’t have money. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, not good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a matter of fact, we do.(a donation box) [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Whoa." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They work pretty well, actually." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What do I get back, if I put money in here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, pizza. It says on the tin." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, hey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "“If you put money in, pizzas will grow out of it.”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "That’s how the hackathon works, the big one of g0v, actually. I’m not really, know how to build a community. When I started to do this, I went to lots of small, mini hackathons." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, like the MoeDict hackathon." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Like the MoeDict, or like the Cofacts one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s how they run it." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Even other communities, because I work in an association which is supporting startups. I also go to lots of startup communities. I learn from them. For the spaces, you already have the space." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Those are sweet glasses. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, no, we’re having an office hour. We are on the record. We’ll be making a transcript, and the office hour has been going on for almost 50 minutes, which means that it will end in about 10 minutes." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "This all sounds great." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "The main thing is about space. Spaces and people, people who run it, and about the food, right? Food is basically from here (a donation box), and Audrey’s pocket and my pocket. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How do people..." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Sometimes, people bring food here, and sometimes there is a..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people do bring a large variety. Shida Lu contributes a lot. That’s our chef." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "There’s a private chef over there. Sometimes, if he was here, it’s how the onigiri, the rice ball comes from. Sometimes, he will make some food for us, like chicken soup, or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s awesome. Collaborative food-making." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "That’s really good for everyone, around this and about the space, because we really have here. It’s not a problem now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because this space is dedicated for civic tech for the next four years, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "The whole space?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the whole space, but especially that room is dedicated for civic tech." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "There’s a few things that that money can be spent on. What if there’s like, someone has a different idea? Is there clarity? How do we spend money together?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pizza." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What if we want to pay someone in honorarium, or start giving someone a little bit of a wage, or an amount, an appreciation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. Like MG, when she came, I think you talked about this at some point." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "MG say she think we can apply for the grant from OCF or from Jothon, the g0v grant. I’m not sure if, I don’t know. I also started to think about the problem of money from, not because I was think...Yeah, there’s always lots of things to do for the community building, but I not really have the time to do this." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "If I can skip my job, then I could do this. If you want to do this on a long term, I don’t want to rely on grant. I’m not sure if, yeah. I’m not really sure about that. For vTaiwan itself, I think the most important thing is about the community. If we have more people, then we do more..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Things." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, more things to build a community. I’m not really good at doing, organizing communities, but I’ve been trying." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "You could pay someone." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "What?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Pay someone who is 100 percent interested in that. No, maybe that’s bad. Maybe it’s bad to pay someone to build community." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, but I don’t have money to pay someone. There is a project from government, and how you return?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Avross is staff, but she joins vTaiwan in her non-paid time." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "She just volunteers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, this hour is chosen so that people are all joining as volunteers. None of this is our day job." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "A friend got a grant from the Secure Scuttlebutt Foundation, which is a hilarious word. It’s a protocol for social networks. They receive money from cryptocurrency, from Bitcoin. I think that’s how they got this chunk of money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the Pineapple Fund." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Sorry?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Pineapple Fund." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, yeah, yeah, I forgot." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Pineapple, yes. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s wild." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is someone who’s very rich from crypto donating suddenly to a bunch of, like the Software Freedom Conservancy, and really important infrastructure, open source projects." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "This is the kind of thing I was hoping for. I was like, “All these new money people.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anonymously, with no strings attached." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They started trying to spend this in a way that didn’t burden them with monitoring, which is very un-grant-like. Normally, grants, the good ones, start off with, “How do we evaluate the success of this? How do we know if we got return?”" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They didn’t want to do that. They invented a really loose social process for giving enough..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Awesome Fund, the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Was it inspired by the Awesome?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know, but it’s really similar. Our New York workshop was, I think, also Awesome-funded." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "How do you talk about it? It’s the chunks are meant to be enough time for, it’s $5,000, and it’s supposed to be one month of work by one person. That’s not true everywhere. Some places, like in San Francisco, that’s a week, tops. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "In some places, it’s way more. They want to keep it simple. They essentially developed a process where there was no focus on the deliverables. It wasn’t about feature development. It wasn’t about needing anything." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Because they valued the certain social aspects, basically the money always went to building community, either because it was they were funding the thing that everyone was most excited about, they were giving them latitude to experiment." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel it’s really connected to something that Sandy Pentland talks about. It’s about, don’t apply the incentive to the person. Don’t apply the incentive to the node in the network, because then, when you run out of money, you stop paying, and you remove the incentive, that little node just goes right back to how it was before." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s not continuing down the path. What the Secure Scuttlebutt Foundation does is they, instead of applying the incentive to the node, they apply it to the edge of the graph. They apply it to the relationship. They apply it to what Alex calls the social fabric." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They distort the culture around whatever people are doing. Then when they remove it, the things that were making the actions happen is encoded in the social fabric. It’s encoded in the relationships. It’s encoded in the ways that people work together in the space." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It actually, it keeps going well after you remove the incentive. That feels like what the Secure Scuttlebutt Foundation is doing. They’re paying for social change in their community. They’re paying for new shapes of the network, for new culture." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Then the work keeps happening, and the work continues to happen after they don’t get any more money. I’m really in love with that way of putting money into open source communities, and into internally motivated communities." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m curious whether we can do it in the civic tech sector. I feel pretty certain that that would keep it...There was a talk by Clément, a guy from France, about if we’re not careful, civic tech will get appropriated by gov tech." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Only when you make money do you get money, do you get to continue building. Sorry, that was a little, that was ranty." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "[laughs] No." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It’s just..." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, that would make things more easier, but on the other hand, once you get...You attract different kinds of people, like all of you here..." }, { "speaker": "Billy Lin", "speech": "In my opinion, what you want to do is to build a Watchout." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I do like Watchout. Are you offering?" }, { "speaker": "Billy Lin", "speech": "...hard situation to crack the money, to earn the money. They’re already in a hard position." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "A hard position?" }, { "speaker": "Billy Lin", "speech": "Now, they get a project from the government, but when they get a project the government don’t like, the government maybe will not make them earn money from the government. That’s a problem. Most of the NGOs, especially on human rights in Taiwan, they didn’t get the project from government." }, { "speaker": "Billy Lin", "speech": "That make them in a really poor situation that they have nearly no money." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Funding is so big." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "I think that there’s, like Jothon, except for people, like at that day, people, you can donate in the kind of boxes. You will also buy long-term donation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like 10 US dollars every month." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "For Jothon, and with a donator, you can donate for that project. They use the money to buy pizzas and all those foods at that date. I think that space is free, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Could we do that? Can we just hook a Patreon up to your bank account?" }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "I don’t think it would be a good idea to go to my bank account. Maybe if they go to Jothon, then it would be nice, maybe." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OCF was set up so that each community doesn’t have to hire an accountant by itself." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Any different small project of g0v, they have different way to raise their money. Like Cofacts, they get the grand. I think they are from the grand. Another, the election guide..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Vote Taiwan?\" ( https://councils.g0v.tw/ )" }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Vote Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s called Vote Taiwan now, because they got the money from branding. The visual design and the branding is part of that brand." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "I really admire the people who run that project, who call Johnny, and I’m not sure if you met him. I asked him why, because he always be challenged from people in g0v, that why are you taking money from that organization? That organization look like they have different values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very diverse organization, but it’s definitely not pro-DPP. I can say that." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "And not that pro-parties." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s got Fan Chou in it, so there’s some original thinking. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wouldn’t say it’s partisan, but of course, it’s not the usual acquaintances of human right groups, of course." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Johnny would always be challenged. I asked him in the summit why he don’t use crowdfunding; we can also donate to the crowdfunding system." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "He said, “If I am going to do that,” then that makes him to cover what he covered the source of those money from. He rather to do, “OK, you can see that, is that one even supporting me? But I’m still doing what it comes to.” I think that was wrong. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s pretty good. It’s accountability in itself." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "That’s how he would do. I think crowdfunding is not that diverse, or that decentralized. That money might come from the same resource. It’s not really that...We can try and do that good. I wasn’t thinking about that before two weeks ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before MG brought it up, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Yeah, I never thought of that. Maybe we can do that after this, so we can have more resource. The only thing I don’t want to do is to take money from the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That’s the grant, the g0v grant. They can come from any resource but the government." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Can the government give money into the pot, and then it gets split up and given to projects?" }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Maybe. Maybe, but they will..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know. Does III contribute to Jothon? I don’t think so." }, { "speaker": "Billy Lin", "speech": "I just see that it’s how we keep a supporting staff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, vTaiwan is supported by the space, but it’s not III money. It is science and technology. It’s BOST-allocated money is equally applied, if you are a civic tech group that identify one of the sustainable goals that you’re working on, you get access to use this venue for free." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not like everybody else has to pay... vTaiwan gets it for free, but everybody else gets it for free too." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I’m trying to think. I don’t have the same feeling about avoiding government money. I don’t know why, though. It feels important to limit influence, but it feels like it can be done in another way, at least in, you have a different relationship to government, started by a lot of government civil servants. They’re a big supporter of us, which is probably different." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Contribution of time, of course. That is always appreciated." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I guess we see... I shouldn’t say we. I think government essentially is like the biggest, we work great beside them. They’re supportive of the things we do. They have the capacity to actually help us with sustainability of projects." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "“Oh, this is great. You experimented. You ran a test. It worked. Let us take care of that for you, and we’ll...”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what a lot of g0v, like the labor law calculator, goes. The Ministry of Labor just..." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "The budget?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just bought it, really, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Back home, very different government, but it has a sort. It expects to pay huge amounts of money for everything, because it has essentially been captured by vendors who have encoded policy that make it very hard to pay small people." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It has a giant, giant budget that when we look at it from the community, we think if we can just put a little spigot, a little knob in here, and figure out ways to thoughtfully release that money to projects that can make it go so much further, then that is going to seem magical for the government, and the friends in government." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They’re not used to getting anything for as cheap as that. It feels like it’s a source of financial resources that has been bloated, and will be welcome. It’s funny, it feels hard to imagine not accessing it. I think maybe our government applies less pressure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the community is not against prize money. Unlike grant, sometimes people go to those hackathons that has prize attached to it. People are generally fine with that, but it’s definitely not seen as a steady income. It is just some event that you go to." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "We’ve had government fund a few positions in our community where you’d think there would be resentment from government money going to one person." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It actually works pretty beautifully, because there’s a general sense in the community that the work of holding a project together, doing the hard work, and maybe the boring work, the being a scrub master work, everyone knows that it’s really hard for an open project to do that." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "There’s a lot of gratefulness when someone is paid a token amount, but a fair wage, to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hold things together." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Just be the consistency that the community often lacks when it doesn’t have contracts, money for everyone, and all the normal forces that hold together groups of people who are working together. We don’t have a lot of that, because we remove them." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "They’re our shackles as much and they’re our...[laughs] That’s worked really well, and all partners have been really happy, including I think there’s maybe a hope that there was some money that came as gift-like to the project manager." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "We’re going to work on getting more. We’re not leaving you behind, but this is, we’re supplementing the binding forces right now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s really good to hear." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Money, though. Maybe that’s the other worry about not having structure. Everyone knows how contracts work. Everyone knows how capitalist economies work. If we’re just looking for money, and we find money, then we put it into the mechanisms that we know from the outside world work." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Those are maybe not, they’re the ones we think of first, but it’s maybe bad for projects. Maybe it twists motivations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what the B corps people, that’s what the Yunus System, that’s what the social enterprise people has been focusing on for the past 10 years, is how to align financial incentives with social environmental ones." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Open source is doing people, money and open source is doing things that are more imaginative than..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like Mozilla. Mozilla Corporation is running pretty well. It’s a social enterprise. It says that on its homepage..." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "What if, for example, if you want to run a long-term project? Money would be necessary for you to run a long-term, if you have a goal, a very particular goal to do good in vTaiwan. This project, for this stage, I think, is not that kind of project." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Especially, it’s related to policy. Once you start to accepting donation, or there will be lots of hands. How do you say that? Lots of political, if they want to get the influence, it will be more complicated to handle. I’m not sure if I cannot do that well. If today, I’m doing a vote, Taiwan is not a good example. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, not at all." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Like the MoeDict, they would be perfect for getting monies and services. Let’s do it. Let’s do the crowdfunding. This project, I’m not sure. I think we need to discuss with who are participation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The thing with MoeDict is that it never required financial resources." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Just kind of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s like literally zero cost." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It feels like something being neutral or apolitical. The cost is always, someone has to maintain or do the care work, or the community maintenance, or merge forks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, but it’s all just time, right? There’s nothing that need to be bought." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Time, we don’t want just one sort of person who has lots of time, like tech people, who maybe tend to have done well, cashed out, or live in certain area of town. Time is cheaper for them. It costing time doesn’t make me feel good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, but during a project’s bootstrap era, in all open source communities it’s like that. It’s basically one or two people putting in lots in time before it proves to be valuable to other people. Then it starts to develop a model for governance and money or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I guess I think about ecological succession a lot, like volcanic islands. Lava goes over, then the first species show up. They pave the way for the next species. Then you get moss, shrubs, trees, and birds." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "It feels like because a certain group has a role early on, that doesn’t mean that that’s the right thing to accept later." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree. The blockchain people are totally reinventing that. That’s what we’re seeing, is basically a new generation that’s not satisfied with databased governance as the previous generation of civic tech people do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The previous generation of civic tech people is almost all centered around data-based normativity. Now, with blockchain governance, it’s about code too. We are seeing a change, because the blockchain people are very good a design long-term incentives to keep people engaged." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is great. It basically liberates the mathematicians to be financially independent, and also help other people to be financially independent." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "[whispers] It’s funny, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel like I identify as an anarchist sympathizer, but not an anarchist. It’s like a tending towards, or an asymptotic sort of thing. I think it affects me differently than...My views on money, they feel more urgent." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel like it’s almost the projects, money is a project. Money is 400 projects. I’m excited to see 1,000 experiments with money, because I don’t think capital is, we’re not creative enough. It feels like you have different feelings around it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t feel at all attached to money. All the innovations I care about, money cannot buy, so it’s useless instrument." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I do the thing where I camp in parks in the summer, so I don’t have to pay money. I make my own guaranteed basic income, and spend a lot of time trying to think, “OK, how do I invite others into this?” This has given me so much time to focus on things that I care about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Don’t you feel you’ve also had opportunities for that that have shaped...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, these people pay taxes to pay me." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "You were involved in startups at one point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was 20 years ago. More than 20 years ago, actually." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Did it not give you space to build a reputation that let you also have savings, so you could focus?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I never really had any much savings. I don’t feel attached to money. That’s the simple fact." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I don’t either, not attached. Resentful, that I have to care about it sometimes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have to care about it ever since I was 15. If I need money that month, I take some coding gigs, and I’m done with that. Basically, I participate in the gig economy early as I was 15. I basically just earn whatever I need for that month, and I’m done. It’s usually just a week or less, and then all my time is free." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel like I can tell people that I broke my brain by doing this weird, weird economy, living in the woods. Even just working, make a little money to back to the thing you love, feels very challenging for me. It doesn’t feel as simple as just jumping back in, making some money, and then leaving. I guess that’s my own history, though." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying that it applies to everyone. We, the people who started when free software forked off into open source, is very privileged. Such people are in very short supply anywhere that can speak the language of free software and hacker culture, but is also willing to engage with people economically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That gives us the privilege of being activist, but also pay very well for our knowledge. Then of course, it creates schism in the free software open source communities, especially in the US. Not so much in Taiwan, but then it kind of merged back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then the open source people got pretty successful, and then they are now saying, “OK, now, the human rights, freedoms are most important.” Then they kind of merged back, especially in the past few years." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "What about, have you spent time trying to convince friends to join in...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "No?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, they join if they want to join." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I feel very differently about that. That’s OK. Sometimes, I’m surprised to find areas of unalignment, which is totally OK. It’s like, we’re converged on something. We agree on so many things, but then there’s a little area where things are different. That’s always, sometimes funny to find, or to realize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think I try to create a friendly environment for people to join, but I don’t try to convince particular individuals to join. I think it’s easier that way, if I don’t tailor-make the environment to particular innovators, things that make everybody feel welcome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my view, and I’m not trying to impose it on you. That’s my view." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "No, I don’t feel that. Tailoring to individuals. There’s so many thoughts on mirror neurons and displaying mannerisms that mimic people, and body language that pulls people in, and helps us recognize maybe if we’re matching body language." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Then I’m not seeing someone else, I’m seeing a self. I’m seeing something that...Where was I going with that? The idea of luring people in, or making the space on the other side of a leap feel welcoming, I think, is a big part of how I imagine my organizing works." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I think the relationships are alive, and we are just the vessels that it inhabits. That’s one of the crazy things I said to Liz." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "To who?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To Liz Barry. We are just the vessels of which the relationships, which are the real life-forms, habits." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "We’re actually just tubes, appendages. That’s sweet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Do you see all of this and think about it in a mathematical network sort of way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. I used a model of bigraphs — a place graph, and a link graph." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I wish I had those skills. Do you ever get vertigo from that way of seeing things?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Sometimes, I do, I think. It feels like it can sometimes feel disorienting, especially when explaining it to others, and then being like, “What?”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a g0v contributor, PM5, who’s also a mathematician. I think he saw the social physics as kind of like a natural language. He’s just watching it unfold. He’s not too attached to any moment-by-moment thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just maybe a natural transformation for him in whatever category theory that he thinking about. I am not quite there, but I think learning Haskell and learning category theory really helped to not suffer from vertigo." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The whole thing of category theory is seeing isomorphisms and various morphisms that are equivalent among different cultures or different systems. You find the invariants within them." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "That’s wild. I think I only learned about category theory to understand even a little bit of how code can be proofed or proven." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s enough, because you get the idea natural transformation." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Oh, I don’t, definitely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Maybe it only takes you a couple days. I think it’s a useful insight." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "This has been great. I wish I was spending more time in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Come back." }, { "speaker": "Lisa Lin", "speech": "Come again." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re going to Toronto, anyway. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah. I don’t know how you do so many of these things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Playfully." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Doodling. That’s the pen for writing on the special...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the iPad, like this." }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "I think CS bought one after maybe the NYC workshop. She draws a lot now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool. So, that’s it for the office hour?" }, { "speaker": "Patrick Connolly", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll send you the record then." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "I love this poem, it is such a great summary of your values. What is it inspired by?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wrote the poem when I was in New Zealand. I was attending a conference on open source and open society. I drew inspiration from the Maori people. Their chants link to the Taiwanese Austronesian people who sailed the seas four thousand years ago and spread their culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The indigenous nations of Taiwan are of a great inspiration to me. New tech enables all living beings to speak through data and numbers — people can empathize not just with other humans, but with the wider ecosystem with which our lives are deeply intertwined." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "We are exploring different futures in this magazine. What is your most radical vision for the future of democracy and society?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My vision for the future is a plurality-based ecological democracy. But before reaching for that far future, I would like to say that we first need to solve for the near term. Like by year 2030, we need to use the resources on earth sustainably. We can’t burn through more than one earth year per earth year. This is very important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As the minister in charge of social innovation, I want to make sure everybody knows about the importance of sustainability across all the sectors. We can list what every organisation in our society is doing in terms of the Sustainable Development Goals index." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That way people can discover each other, work towards common goals and form spontaneous partnerships. Partnership is how we’re going to reach those goals." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "A plurality-based ecological democracy sounds great! Can you tell us a little about how you’re working towards this future. Are there any specific challenges to overcome?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our main challenge is that we are a very new democracy. Although we have perhaps the most open and innovative society in all of Asia, our first presidential election was only 30 years ago. We’ve had to figure out democracy after three decades of military law and dictatorship. Democracy in Taiwan is as old as the World Wide Web." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People younger than me can’t remember the martial law—they think of things naturally in the collaborative way of open access. But people who are my age or older, who are digital and democracy migrants, have to reshape our thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have to reconcile a highly hierarchical authoritarian culture and language with of a reality that is a horizontal, people-powered democracy. We have to move beyond the authoritarian way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the reason why social innovation is innovation with people, not for people." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "Democracy in Taiwan is young, yet very vibrant. The challenge with hierarchical structures sounds very familiar—we can see that in governments around the world. How are you breaking the silos and paving the way for an innovation with the people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My theory of change has three pillars:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "1. Location independence — I can choose when and where to work;" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taken together, these tools are a kind of virtual reality that enable people to understand what it’s like to be a digital minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My office, which is part of the location independence plan, is a social innovation lab. We placed twelve different ministries into this shared workplace. It creates a social infrastructure that breaks silos, and that’s where new thoughts and ideas emerge. It’s a co-created social infrastructure with a cafe, a kitchen and a chef that opens until late every night. I sit there and listen to people every Wednesday for twelve hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This infrastructure and social fabric makes innovation not just possible but also fun. Optimize for fun!" }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "That sounds like a very welcoming environment. 🙂" }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "You’ve been working on many progressive deliberation and participation projects. What tools or methodologies are you using for the co-creation processes in your work with the social innovation lab? Is there anything you are particularly excited about?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, I am most excited about this idea of a sandbox. It allows innovators to test their suggested improvements for a law or regulation in a real place, like a playground, a municipal space, a rural space an indigenous space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once people have experienced social innovation first hand, they are much more likely to get involved. If the idea is not a good fit, everybody learns from the data sharing ideas and open innovation ethics. If it works, then there are new ethics and norms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, how can the parameters of an AI be made more humane and privacy enhancing? We test and then turn those insights into our legislations. Then we don’t regulate something we don’t have first hand experience with. And we can collaborate with social innovators in a way to the benefit of the common good." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "I know that you are an optimist – that is something that resonates in all of your answers. But is there anything you are worried about when you think of the future of democracy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would worry if people stopped visiting me during my office hours in social innovation lab. I would worry if I toured around Taiwan every week and the social innovators refused to talk to one another. I would worry if people distrusted the internet so much so that they would not be willing to participate in any communication, even if it had end-to-end encryption." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In short, I would worry if plurality disintegrated into small filter bubbles. I think that this is our main threat now. It is not a single person; it is not an ideology. It is just the lack of care—and the lack of being deeply listened to—that threatens plurality and the current democracy." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "You’ve been working with indigenous language communities, you advocate for animal rights, you went through two different puberties – you say an overarching theme of your personal journey is intersectionality." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "What do you think needs to happen to get more diverse groups involved in decision making processes? How can society benefit from intersectionality?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Intersectionality reminds us that we all have some part of us that is vulnerable, that has suffered from social injustice, and that is in the minority. Through these painful experiences, we can emerge with an authentic voice and listen to people who are suffering for a different reason yet feel the same pain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When individual voices can represent themselves authentically, that helps us rethink our own experiences of vulnerability. As far as I know, empowering people who are suffering is the best way to to scale listening among disintegrating pluralities and to safeguard democracy." }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "Beautifully said! Here’s my last question:" }, { "speaker": "Julia Kloiber", "speech": "When you think of the long term future, what topics do you perceive as important related to society? If you were free to choose, what would you be spending your time working on?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, I joined the cabinet to work with, and not for, the government, by my own choosing. So if given the choice again, I would still work on what I am now: Knowledge sharing and cooperation for access to science, technology and innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Early open innovation can decolonise the technological regimes that people are currently using. It’s through open innovation that we can ensure public access to information and protect our fundamental freedoms— not just offline but also online and in mixed reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And it’s through open innovation that we can ensure responsive, inclusive and also representational decision making so that the government truly is with the people not for the people." } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "非常感謝各位長官今天撥冗來參加今天的會前會，會議的主題是汽燃費，唐鳳原本今天會過來主持這個會議，但是臨時有行程插入，沒有辦法過來，跟各位說不好意思。我這邊先作人員的簡單介紹，我是賴致翔，是唐鳳政委的幕僚，負責開放政府的業務；在我右邊的這一位是速錄師，我們的速錄師在場的原因是，會把今天各位發言的每一個字都打下來，大家先不要太緊張，雖然每個字都被記錄下來，但是在十個工作天之後，或者是正式開會（11月2日）時才公開。公開逐字稿可以事先經過編修，或者是討論的內容比較敏感的話，也可以說「這一段不要紀錄」。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "為什麼會做這樣的設計？主要是希望各位在討論的過程中，往後其他民間的參與者想要瞭解在公部門發生什麼事，各部會之間的立場大概是什麼樣的狀況，都可以從網路上找得到紀錄，不需要再額外寫民意信箱或者是用其他的方式來取得資料，這個是我們推動開放政府很重要的程序之一。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，在我左邊有兩位主持人，中間這一位是林雨蒼，原本在NGO任職，在政委辦公室是在主持團隊當中協助議題分析的部分，所以他擅長用NGO的角度來問大家的問題，比如「我是民眾的話、我是在政府的對立面可能會提出什麼樣的質疑」所以各位聽到他的發言的時候，不要覺得他是政委辦公室的同仁而覺得很拘謹、不好意思反駁。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最旁邊這一位是張芳睿，她原本是在英國的內閣辦公室一個叫「Policy Lab」，中文叫做「政策實驗室」的單位，英國的政策如果經過政策實驗室的話，會有一點像協作會議的模式，也就是先找民眾一起來討論外界會有什麼意見，然後再把政策定案。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我看在場各部會PO幾乎都到了，我先假設PO都已經跟各位業務單位的同仁說過什麼是協作會議，但我還是占用大家兩、三分鐘的時間說明一下，協作會議最主要的目的是，希望可以藉由這樣的會議形式來形塑公部門跟民間之間的信任，既然要互相信任的話，我們就是用開誠布公的方式來溝通，交通部也好幾次參與的經驗，在場都是大部，都是經濟部、農委會、環保署等等，雖然每一次的業務同仁不一樣，但是PO都是同一批人。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "會後針對協作會議的形式如果有不是很清楚的話，可以問各部會的PO找我，可以提供相關的資訊來解答。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思先打斷一下，我剛急著趕過來，我們的電腦線也沒有辦法接好，所以我趕快拿一個線，馬上回來，先讓張芳睿代理我主持，不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "好，協作會議的性質，如果不是那麼清楚的話，可以找各部會的PO或者是直接找我。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為協作會議到目前為止推動將近兩年，這一場是第四十一場了，過去幾次經驗有做得還不錯、也有做得不夠好的，但總之希望藉由實作協作會議的經驗一起跟大家試著推動看看，採用開放的方式跟民眾溝通，跟傳統的方式比較看看有沒有更好的效果，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "大家可以看到投影幕，大家看到會前都有連結網址，採用心智圖的方式來做議題，這個在民間或者是科技業很常用的方式，一個議題先分成幾個大層面，首先公平面、執行面及法規面等等，每一個面向有不同的階層，像法規面是什麼樣的原因，這一些原因再往下分析遇到什麼樣的困境，所以原則上會議的過程中，請大家透過這個心智圖互相來盤點一下，我們這一個機關在這個案子當中的業務有沒有被提到，機關很堅持的立場在這裡有沒有show出來，沒有的話，就請主持人補上去，大概是這樣的邏輯。接下來的時間交給芳睿。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來的議題內容會以議題分析表為主，確認一下媒合到心智圖的內容跟大家理解是不是正確的，主要是交通部製作的這一個議題分析表，我們可以先從問題不同的面向來看：" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一個部分是法規面，我們用這樣的心智圖方式，其實可以幫助大家，在實際現場協作會議討論時，可能每一個人的切入點不太一樣，有一些人可能從執行面，也就是政府如何實際去做來提出一些問題；有一些人比較在意法規面的部分，我們希望我們的討論是有一些脈絡可循的；並不是我們可能有人先討論執行面，我們就應和討論執行面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "中間穿插到討論法規面，會讓那場會議有一點混亂，我們希望依照議題分析表，也就是部會事先針對這一個議題來作問題釐清、相對應解法及政府目前作為的媒合，再用心智圖的方式來順一下，看是不是與大家的理解是不是一致的。比如我們今天先討論執行面，討論完之後再討論法規面，因此可以確保大家討論的脈絡是比較清楚的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們在看議題分析表的部分，從法規面到執行面到社會公平面，這幾個部分有針對問題細節的內容稍微作了一些調整與修正，所以也跟各位說明一下我們的調整，也看各位認為這樣的調整是不是適合的，我先從法規面的第一個問題細節開始看。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "法規面的第一個細節是「汽車燃料使用費為特定目的」的部分（P1），我們先把這個內容放在心智圖的「P1」，轉譯成一句話，跟剛剛那一段話對照來說，其實要講的內容是汽機車燃料費與能源稅造成混淆，因為原本的論述包含到背景的脈絡梳理，這個部分是把論述調整比較精準一點，就是直接指問題的核心，也就是有關於用詞的混淆，因此我們把原本P1問題的論述調整成這樣子，看大家覺得有沒有意見。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "交通部這邊ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "我覺得這樣子跳會不會太快了一點？因為如果P1的話沒有講到能源稅。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我先講一下調整的方向是把P1跟P2放在一起，P1變成左邊、P2變成右邊。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我稍微說明一下，這個是我改寫的，改寫的原因是：前面直接講說費用的由來是什麼，後面跳出修正使用費的名稱，這一件事其實有一點跳tone，其實大家去想像應該可以感覺到爭議其實缺了一塊，我覺得中間這一塊可能其實民眾一直以來把汽機車的燃料使用費當成一種稅收，接下來就會類比我們已經有空污稅、能源稅那一些東西，會覺得同樣的東西重複課稅很有問題，因此會覺得不應該這樣子，才會認為是違憲。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然違憲的部分在P2已經有處理了，所以交通部最主要的回應是希望可以修正使用名稱來呼應道路維管費的本質，這個在立法院已經修法了。只是這個地方需要把中間的邏輯脈絡釐清，不然民眾看到的時候，可能會很疑惑，不知道為什麼前面講的是費用，但後面突然說要改名。不知道這樣說明到底有沒有比較清楚？如果沒有聽懂，可能是我們說明得不夠好，不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "江芷瑛", "speech": "民眾混淆是把「汽燃費」當成一種「燃料稅」，而不是指目前所謂的「能源稅」。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "我補充一點好了，原來立法的目的是為了道路維護，但是叫「汽燃費」，大家就一直會跟「燃料稅」混在一起，應該是這樣說，會覺得既然是燃料稅就隨油徵收，為何要隨車（徵收），應該是說燃料稅跟汽燃費的名字太近了，應該是這樣說。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "主席我補充一下，我是財政部賦稅署，我姓李。目前大概有稅跟費，如果指費的話，是汽燃費並不是燃料稅。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "我們只是說民眾的觀感而已。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "我們沒有開徵所謂的燃料稅。" }, { "speaker": "王銘德", "speech": "應該是說民眾會顧名思義而認為是汽車使用了燃料所應付出的稅費，但是就法所訂定的文字，並不是因為使用燃料所需付出的稅費，而是使用道路所需付出的稅費。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "感受到後面相關稅制的複雜性，我們寫「跟稅捐造成混淆」比較好，補充相關的稅，像有牌照稅、行照稅及空污稅。" }, { "speaker": "胡明輝", "speech": "環保署說明一下，空污也是費，不是稅。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "目前能源稅是由財政部在研擬規劃當中，會針對燃料排碳去算課稅的基礎是什麼，應該是財政部還在研擬中。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "第二，如果是為了公路養護修建安全管理所須經費得徵收，應該是「汽車道路使用費」，對不對？「公路養護安全」徵收的應該是「汽車道路使用費」才對，不是燃料的概念，我覺得這樣子會比較清楚，未來財政部會提能源稅的時候，會依照燃料別的排碳去課稅，未來他們的規劃是這樣子，而且會審慎選擇適當的時機再推動，據我們瞭解是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊其實有一個滿好玩的意思，我們知道目前正在修法中，要修成「汽車道路使用費」，只是這一次在會議上討論的時候，大家覺得用什麼名稱比較好？是不是要依循傳統使用汽機車燃料費，又或者是直接討論汽車道路使用費，只是目前還沒有修法，所以叫做「燃料費」？大家覺得哪一個比較好？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果我們用使用費的話，大家會議討論比較不會跟以前的東西混淆，可能會好一點，但是跟現狀是比較不符合的，不知道大家覺得怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "目前比較貼近的說法是「道路維護管理費」或者是簡稱「道路維管費」，又或者是「公路維管費」，也就是維護管理的意思。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我稍微問一下，提案人這邊，主辦機關有先問過他的意見，對不對？提案人目前對於案情的瞭解有沒有很多誤解，或者是有沒有很多我們在會議中一定要去說明的地方？比如一開始就把費跟稅搞清楚，然後接下來又把不同的費搞清楚，還要把不同主管機關基於不同理由所收的規費搞清楚，提案人在這一塊的理解是什麼程度，可以幫我們說明一下？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "這邊說明一下提案人的意思，提案人對於稅跟費的區別應該是沒有那麼地care，沒有要想得那麼複雜，純粹是想說今天既然用車，每個人行駛的里程、個別的差異都很大，但是卻可能都是繳相同的費用，所以這樣並不是很公平。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "另一方面，在這個社會上有部分的人多次提出了「隨油徵收」的意見，因為開車會用油，每個人加油的數量又不一樣，從用油的觀點去收取費用，就可以作差異化的區別，所以提案人覺得這樣是比較符合所謂使用者付費及公平正義的原則。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "當然進一步想得比較廣，如果這麼做的話，可以降低車輛的使用，減少用油，進一步達到節能減碳的目的。以上是大概提案人的想法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我順著這個問題想要繼續問下去，目前在網路上有找到兩、三篇文章在講這一件事，而且看起來臺灣長期以來，很多尤其是愛車的人，常常會有類似的倡議或說法，我有看到各位提上來的資料，裡面包含好幾次，他們一直跑來跟你們反映，你們幾乎回到快要每一次都回類似的東西，我相信你們自己也覺得很煩，立委也提過類似的東西。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "他們既然這麼多的反映，背後有沒有一個比較有組織的倡議團體，又或者是常年讓你們比較頭痛的專家學者，會有嗎？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "目前應該沒有特定的倡議團體，但是就我們的觀察，比較贊成隨油徵收意見的人，大概都是一般民眾自用車的車主比較多。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以目前看起來算是比較鬆散的聲音，還不是有組織的倡議。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "特別是現在有一些都會區的民眾，可能平常比較少開車，只有假日出遊的時候會用到車，他們想說其他每天在開的人，為什麼我跟他是繳同樣的錢。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解。所以我們這個地方能訪談的老師、團體，你們覺得有誰可以再進一步釐清的嗎？我這邊有找到幾個，有一個是叫做蔡志兼、郭正浩、車車聞，我找Google大概前五分頁裡面，他們的文章在裡面有，其他的是論文及各位的澄清稿。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "看起來這幾個的論述跟提案人其實是差不多的，我本來只是想要瞭解有沒有機會去挖到更深一層，他們原來看到，也許是我們這邊沒有看到的東西，如果沒有的話，那也沒有關係，到時候看看還有沒有機會，我在網路上再多找一找，看看老師專門做這個研究，然後再問問看，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為聊到提案人，我一併確認一下，11月2日會議時，提案人會出席嗎？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "提案人有表明說因為他本身有聽覺障礙，所以當時的聯繫也以電子郵件為主，他也已經表明當天可能不便參加，加上他人住在南部，他已經有表達這方面的意見。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "當然他也有提到，如果有需要他發表相關的意見，他可以先行提供。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可以的話，我們之後再想想看，我們會需要更多相關附議的人來與會，如果不夠的話，再看還能邀誰。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有一個小建議，網路上的投書，像蔡至兼、郭正浩、車車聞，我們開會的時候適度邀請過來，讓這一些所謂網路上議題領袖接受到我們這一些交通部的澄清，有相關的東西可以幫你們澄清。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我想問一下這個案子的走向，因為我們協作會議分成兩種類型：" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "一種是溝通型的，也就是我們跟民間講清楚為什麼政府需要收這一筆錢，為什麼我們的遊戲規則這樣訂，通常溝通型的只要講清楚之後，在網路上擴散效果也不錯的話，類似的議題比較不會一直被重複提起。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "但是有另外一種是民眾提案真的是我們沒想到的，民眾真的要的並不是表面上他講因為我的車子跑得比別人少，而是真的背後有一些往上拉一層可以找到的東西，比如他要的是所謂每一台車應該是1哩程付相關的成本，又或者是降低使用量，他說希望借用這樣的方式，我們要回過頭來談後面比較難處理的，比如收什麼樣的費率可以降低車輛使用，你覺得議題的走向比較像哪一邊？我比較想問的是這個。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "交通部的資料都看過，我自己評估是這樣，會比較接近跟大家說明目前的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "交通部以前其實已經發包做過研究了，也就是汽車燃料費徵收制度研究的部分，裡面已經辦過了幾次的工作坊，也確認民眾跟官方在意的是什麼，其實有提一些相關的解法，短期內要重新規劃，以使用者付費公平性原則下，應以車重、行駛里程計算，因此接下來是以車重來規劃，接著是以里程來做可行性分析，我們接著才要考慮是不是導入到里程徵收，這個是建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然會議上大家會問到目前交通部的狀況進展到哪裡，因為你們已經做了政策建議，進展到哪裡，到時交通部可能要稍微提一下目前的狀況已經到什麼樣的階段，比如我們現在正在找大家在討論里程徵收有什麼可行性，然後再確認導入有什麼問題。或者是進行過幾次的討論，大家覺得這一個東西可能侵犯隱私或者怎麼樣，我們覺得不可行，因此暫時還是停留在以車重來作收取的方式，這個也沒有關係，就是交通部目前推到什麼地方就跟大家簡短說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然他們可能會提出來覺得可以怎麼樣，比如有一些新的做法是你們沒有想到的，像提案人有提到，像加油前輸入車牌號碼改動費率等等的東西，可能有一些新的創意想法，就是看交通部這邊到時有沒有機會適度去採納。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我跟馬克討論，可能會比較接近汽機車兩段式左轉的樣子，有一些實質上的東西需要調整，應該不至於進展到雙方沒有互信，但是比較有一些東西是擔心會有的，像有一些基礎的東西，我們需要一開始說明清楚。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一，跟車子有關的稅、費到底有哪一些，這個可能第一個要給大家背景的知識，接著是稅捐跟行政規費有什麼不一樣，這個其實也是大家最容易搞錯的一件事。接著，大家會覺得搞混，然後會問是不是違憲，大法官釋字第593號解釋，這個可能要稍微提一下摘要，簡單來說就是稅跟費是不衝突的，目前的收取方式還算合理，大法官並沒有覺得現在隨著車子的狀況來收取是不合理的，因此可以來做簡短的說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然之後討論時，可能接下來討論的過程，我猜會有很大一部分再釐清稅跟費的不同，還有這一些東西為何彼此收取跟目的到底是什麼，交通部到時可以說明一下，雖然名字是叫做「燃料使用費」，但是其實是「道路維管費」，現在已經提案修法了，看什麼時候會通過，或者是看立法院的決定是什麼，行政院沒有辦法給大家承諾，因此這樣跟大家說明也是可以的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "只是我當然這邊的疑惑是，我們下午討論的議題是要討論什麼，因為這看起來比較偏澄清的，不曉得交通部這邊有沒有這樣規劃時，是希望讓民眾討論與瞭解的？有一些東西看起來是比較有爭議的，下午可以討論，像運輸業者免稅的這一件事，因為提案人特別提到了運輸業者用路最多，但是卻是由汽機車的人在負擔，他覺得不公平，但是很快的，計程車工業也行文給你們了，就是希望撤下來，因為他們覺得常年的稅被卡住，我不知道有沒有辦法討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們還是按照心智圖的方式來確認。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們還是按照心智圖的時間順序、議題脈絡順序也好來作討論，剛剛很快帶到一個解法，也就是「把這個規費改名」，如果我是提案的民眾，我還是會質疑是不是改名就公平了？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這其實都是從各位心智圖整理出來的，我先說明幾大塊，右邊的包含「社會公平面」及「執行面」，「執行面」已經被併到下面了，「社會公平面」大概是這個地方，還有是「法規面」，這是交通部給的議題分析表的三大塊。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "下面這一大塊其實是從交通部的研究報告裡面分出來的，分為現行的繳費方式、徵收方式選擇，一個是隨車重、一個是隨燃油、一個是隨里程，我們把一些作業機制、免徵要點及效益是什麼都放在下面，有一些東西就是這一些表格在這裡，其實做得滿完整的，我覺得交通部真的做得很棒。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是一些相關的資訊放在這裡，左邊的部分有一個地方是有關於大家在徵收方案考慮的因素，這個地方有一些是利害關係人，等一下也會請各位幫忙確認一下各個部會的立場有沒有什麼問題或者是需要我們改寫。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一塊是有關於議題的部分，下面的表格是我們到時可以使用的，像主要國家的稅費、徵收方案及配套措施，還有主要國家跟汽車相關的稅收，表5、6其實是心智圖的原版，還有表7里程計費的技術背景，還有表8條文的修正對照。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外有一些小議題，是三篇文章整理出來的，也就是剛剛所說的Google找到的三篇，像空污費是車車聞的，另外兩篇分別是郭先生跟蔡先生的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "從法規面來看，也就是汽機車燃料費與稅捐造成混淆，我們先說稅與費的差別，稅捐是統收統支，行政規費是有特定目的的收取與使用，這個部分有沒有要更正的？" }, { "speaker": "張意欣", "speech": "規費收入是政府歲入預算之一般性財源，是以統收統支為原則。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有沒有建議我們文字怎麼寫？「可特定目的使用」基本也是統收統支為原則？或者是基本也是統收統支為原則？" }, { "speaker": "洪尉淳", "speech": "不好意思，在規費的部分，因為我們是從法條這樣子看下來，一個是行政規費、一個是使用規費，我們想說當初在做這個研究時，其實汽燃費的性質會比較偏向使用規費的部分，我們當初在思考的時候是這樣子想的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好，我把它改成「使用規費」，我們就往下走。" }, { "speaker": "張意欣", "speech": "其實不管是稅收或者是使用規費都是政府籌措歲入財源之一，要去區分是統收統支或者是為特定目的收取之目的為何？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個要跟大家說明這個並不是稅捐的性質，這個是併到稅，然後再從國家的預算分。" }, { "speaker": "張意欣", "speech": "建議稅賦從具強制性、無償性之特性予以說明，至規費部分從使用者受益者付費，具個別報償對價給付性質闡明。另就使用規費之收取，需符合成本回收原則。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有沒有可以建議比較好的解法？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "成本回收原則可不可以幫忙說明清楚一點" }, { "speaker": "張意欣", "speech": "依規費法規定使用規費是依興建、購置、營運、維護、改良、管理及其他相關成本，並考量市場因素定之，需符合成本回收的原則。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "按照興建什麼？因為其實這個地方，我先跟大家說明一下為何會這樣問，因為這樣的東西開完之後，心智圖都會公布在網路上，要確保民眾看到之後瞭解這個是什麼意思，我多問是可不可以說明得讓民眾更清楚一點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這樣寫可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們收取目前這一個爭議的費用就是用來維護道路的使用，所以其實不管是公路法的寫法或者是這邊的寫法，其實是一致的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接下來，我們把汽機車燃料稅跟與稅捐造成混淆的這一件事，也就是為了公路養護、修建及安全管理所需經費，得徵收汽車燃料使用費。接著是把汽機車燃料費更名為「汽車道路使用費」或「道路維管費」，這個說法大家ok嗎？還是大家要用現行的這一個？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "目前寫的這兩個是有人建議汽車道路使用費，剛剛同仁也有建議改成道路維管費，但是要看現在到底是用什麼內容，可以用一張橘色的去補現在實際的狀況，綠色只是有人提出的建議，但要有政府回應（橘色便利貼）的話，就要變成綠色便利貼。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "是不是有一個適當的名稱？如果交通部認為是道路維管費，是不是就是。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "張芳睿提議的是提案的東西跟最後不一樣，定案是「公路養護、修建及安全管理費」，不知道大家覺得如何？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "汽車道路使用費是我們過去的說法，回覆民眾的時候有出現這樣的名詞，部分立委在提案修法時也有用到類似的名詞，但是橘色色塊講到「公路養護、修建及安全管理費」，這個是運研所研究報告的建議，但因為這個名詞可能太長了，就法規層面來講不是很容易閱讀，所以在近期內部的討論，就本質認為其實是比較合適所謂的道路維管費。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "主要是以往談到名稱講到使用時，現在也有一些民眾覺得就算改「使用」，按照目前徵收的方式，大家使用的頻率也還是不同，所以仍會對這部分會有一些質疑。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "道路維管費的全名是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "道路維護管理費。這個是我們部裡面自己的建議，提案是立委的修法提案，他們提案講的是道路使用費，就是有使用的名稱，只是我們現在針對這一個名稱，交通部這邊傾向建議維護管理費。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我釐清一下現在的狀況，你們現在是有提出修法在修名字？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "我們沒有主動提修法，是委員在提案修法的時候，有涵蓋這個修正意見。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "所以其實是立法委員已經提出了一個修法建議，他們建議的是「道路使用費」，但是你們因為他們提的修法，所以你們要有一個對話，你們的說法是道路的「維管費」，是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "類似。但是講更精確一點，當時委員在提案的時候，我們還沒有想到「維護管理費」這個名詞，所以當時委員提出來的時候，我們覺得也差不多，就沒有特別反對。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解，目前的修法進度在哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "在委員會討論，目前擱置。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "方便說明一下擱置的原因是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "很多委員認為隨油徵收為什麼不能做，他們很堅持，後來經過我們的一些說明，也有些委員不再那麼堅持，甚至覺得可能或許裡面還有存在一些問題，或許還有一些其他公平合理的方式也可以提出，所以這個案子當時就請我們再研究，我們當時提出研究的初步報告，目前還沒有繼續再審。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解。各位有建議我們怎麼寫嗎？因為以提案的修法，看起來是不對的。交通部建議用「道路維護管理費」，我改成這樣子，不曉得這樣ok嗎？目前立委提案修法改成這樣，交通部建議使用「道路維護管理費」，這樣比較完整。好嗎？好。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著，民眾認為現行隨車徵收方式與牌照稅重複課稅，違憲，大法官清楚釋憲，並沒有違憲或違法的疑慮，這個地方是使用規費和稅捐被混淆的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊還有包含其他的東西，其他相關的補充說明，也就是牌照稅、行照稅、空污費，能源稅目前財政部研擬中。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "現在並沒有所謂的行照稅，交通部換發行照的費用，那應該是規費。跟車輛有關的還有一個貨物稅，請問這個議題是focus在車輛嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "剛剛交通部有提到能源稅，目前在擬議中，若不提會導致民眾就「稅」、「費」發生混淆嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個部分先把相關的資訊提到的時候，雨蒼說「能源什麼費」還在弄的時候，就可以拿這一張圖跟他說確實知道是能源稅，目前還沒有徵收，這個地方只是補充說明，並且讓大家瞭解我們現在相關的就是有這一些東西，但我們在會議上並不會有這一張便利貼，就把會議的焦點放在這個地方，我們會比較放在目前關於燃料費或是道路維管費到底是不是公平正義的地方來作討論。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "我建議是不是貨物稅跟空污費倒裝過來，就是讓牌照稅跟貨物稅放在一起就好了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "感謝。如果可以的話，我們就往下走。接著是大家比較在意的「社會公平面」，我們相信這個是最大的爭點，也就是什麼是公平。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個包含了相同排氣量車子行駛里程差異大，同樣的，汽燃費不符合公平正義原則，不同車輛對於道路養護的成本也有差異。這個地方是隨車徵稅，讓有車但很少開的人跟常開的人繳一樣的稅不公平，因此就會提案汽機車燃料費隨油徵收。不知道大家覺得ok嗎？如果ok的話，就先往下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好，接下來下面這個地方是，這個地方有一個最大的問題，汽機車燃料費隨油徵收的這一件事，目前交通部適度考量是針對目前用車種來收費的方式，這一條線我們再想一下放哪裡比較好。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請交通部幫忙說明一下你們目前在徵收燃料費的時候……我們是要叫燃料費或是維管費？決定一下好了，是用現況名字來講。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "現況用「汽燃費」。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好，那我們還是用「汽燃費」。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "全名是「汽車燃料使用費」，簡稱是「汽燃費」。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，裡面字句沒有用好，就跟大家抱歉。我看交通部的回應，裡面有提到已經適度考量，然後有提到的是有根據各個不同車種使用道路的狀況，有一定程度的調整，這個適度考量是怎麼考量，是不是可以跟我們說明一下？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "是指我們在費收的設計上，針對車輛區分不同的排氣量，假設排氣量越大、車子越重，相對越大、越重的車偏重在營業車的部分，這裡面也包含了他們使用道路的量比較多。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "排氣量有區分級距，應該是說每一個排氣量級距裡面的耗油量也有一個假設值，並依據平均行駛里程推算耗油量。針對自用車、營業車也會區分使用率，比如每個月的營業車使用百分比相較自用車是比較高的。根據這樣的區分，推算每一個月的行駛里程耗油量是多少，然後再推算至整年，最後乘上單位耗油量的徵收費率，決定整年的收費額度。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "所以大家可能只是看到一年是繳多少的費用，但是其實背後的設計，隱約其實已經有區分不同的車輛，以及不同行駛的狀況，設計出不同的費額。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "不好意思，我想往上拉一層，這邊最上面的敘述，「相同排氣量，車輛行駛的差異大，同樣的汽燃費不符公平正義原則」，這一句話是大家都認同的嗎？為什麼要依據不同的行駛里程繳不同的費才是公平的？就是民眾的這一個觀點，所有的人都覺得是對的？我會問這個問題是，大家有去過遊樂園，消費者不會跟遊樂園說去玩三個遊樂設施要付比較少的錢、我去玩五個遊樂設施付比較多的錢，大家買車就要上路，你進到遊樂園，不管玩多少東西就都一樣，為什麼不是這個說法，而是可以依據里程數，或者是像交通部的代表說依據排氣量來推估它的油耗，然後再推估上路佔用，但是這個都是推估的，在這樣的邏輯之下，民眾覺得不公平是因為不信任你的推估。但是我們從根本把這個邏輯翻掉，如果我們不覺得里程數收費是公平的，而是擁有車就應該負擔一部分的道路成本，這個說法為什麼不能說服人？我想問的是這個。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個問題沒有答案。" }, { "speaker": "江芷瑛", "speech": "因為名稱叫做燃料費，所以大家覺得應該跟燃料有關。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "我這邊再補充一下，剛剛諮議有提到的，為什麼類似遊樂園這樣子玩不同數量的設施，但是卻收同樣的錢，而這個問題也出現在我們的水電、瓦斯費，就算整個月沒有用，還是會繳一筆基本費。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "我們曾經有一個說法，其實養路的錢並不是靠著汽燃費收了以後就足夠，還需要靠其他的部分稅收去挹注。因此所收的汽燃費按照現行的設計，可以依據不同車輛的特性收取不同的汽燃費，所有車主依據這樣的收費制度共同負擔所需的基本道路養護費用、成本，讓每位車主隨時要使用道路的時候，都可以安全、便利地使用，所以還算是合理的算法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前算法哪裡有公開嗎？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "目前的算法是在汽車燃料使用費徵收及分配辦法的附表1及附表2，附表2的費額表是從附表1，耗油量計算表延伸來的。大家比較常看到的是附表2，因為附表2純粹是收費的金額。" }, { "speaker": "王基洲", "speech": "我補充一下，隨油徵收曾經在50年至51年期間曾經做過實施，因為那時大家不知道是什麼背景，從資料來看有實施過，但因為外界上有不同的聲音，認為還是有欠公平，因此到51年的時候又回來制定汽燃費的訂定，因此當時的背景不太清楚。" }, { "speaker": "王基洲", "speech": "我們從交通管理的角度上來看，除了剛剛所提到的理由以外，以交通來說，大部分是推展大眾運輸，如果沒有使用這麼多的車輛時，其實買了一部放在家裡，我們都會鼓勵你去使用大眾運輸。" }, { "speaker": "王基洲", "speech": "既然你可能有這樣的需要，你要放置一部車子，我們的政府也不反對，相對上可能是大家取得一個平衡，像剛剛有提到如果不划算，那有可能就會在大眾運輸的部分去提供。" }, { "speaker": "王基洲", "speech": "為什麼剛剛有提到針對大眾運輸的部分來作減免？大眾運輸就是在服務一般民眾，我們把減免的部分，而大眾運輸的價格是被政府管制的，管制以後相對上提供比較便宜的價格來服務民眾，讓民眾願意去使用它、共同使用這樣的運輸，其實可以降低很多的成本，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實這個地方我覺得致翔的問題是對於公平的定義是什麼，我們目前採取的問題是哪一個，我們很難強迫大家說你的公平定義跟我們的一樣。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "我再作補充，因為剛剛交通部有提到跟水電瓦斯一樣，就我的理解，因為水不是我們管我們不清楚，但是瓦斯業，收費是有一個基本費加上同樣的費，基本費是家裡有一個瓦斯表，要定期維護，所以有固定的費用發生。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "所以每個月機械表有一個60元的基本費，再加上每個月使用度數乘以度數的單價，比如現在一度是13元，現在用二十度，也就是13×20，變成是260元，再加上基本的費用60元，就會320元的費用，兩個月就是乘以2，就是基本費加上從量費，是用使用度數的概念，以上補充，是不太一樣。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "瓦斯費放在這裡，你覺得ok嗎？「瓦斯有基本費（維修檢測費）加上額外的單價費用」。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "我們是中華經濟研究院的研究團隊。應該要分兩個層次來講，剛剛談到的是公平，像剛剛講到基本費，也就是費收的結構，有沒有基本費，這個是另外一個層次上的議題。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "像剛剛談到公平的部分，我覺得要先回來談一下大家一般認識的公平是什麼，你可以說進去繳一個費，這也是可以，但是這個跟我們現在按照車子是一樣的，但是民眾會覺得現在已經可以計算得更清楚，用遊樂設施就付費也可以，甚至熱門跟不熱門也可以付不一樣的費，因此大家對於公平這一件事要求越來越多的時候，就可以精準說使用什麼、付了多少費，這個是現在的趨勢。這也是這一次為何會被提出來？應該是用了多少量，我再去付這個費。至於要不要基本費，我覺得是基本的問題。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "剛剛簡正跟鍾顧問提到的都有說服我，就是公平的定義要求比較高了，可能是因為科技進步、環境變遷，所以可以做更公平的訂價。簡正有說服我的原因是，用排氣量來擬制該繳多少費的邏輯，背後除了公平之外，其實還有另外一個政策的目的，也就是鼓勵大眾運輸，這個點很值得寫下來，我們基於公平幫你算了一套費率，但是這個費率也許會覺得貴跟不公平，因為這並不是不小心讓不公平發生，而是為了鼓勵讓大眾運輸，而產生的訂價不公，我覺得這個說法可以說服我。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "就看當天能不能說服民眾。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家可以一起想想看，當天要討論不是公平這一件事的時候，大家可以自己想一下，也就是各自覺得怎麼樣才是公平，當然公平有很多，包含第一個是機會公平，就像今天股市大跌，大家都有機會去玩股市，但是漲跌自負。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一種，我們希望到最後大家收入是公平的，也就是有一些共產國家會這樣做。另外一種我們衡量的公平是什麼？是只有錢或者有其他的東西，比如你賺的錢不夠，就讓你有大眾運輸可以選擇，這可能也是一種公平，也就是看你劃分的範圍到哪裡，這都可能是當天討論的一些範疇，我會覺得到時也許可以從自己個人的角度出發討論這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "還是回到心智圖。" }, { "speaker": "王銘德", "speech": "公路總局再補充一個觀念，根據運研所的研究報告，國外一般會將車輛相關稅費分為車輛取得階段、持有階段及使用階段徵收不同的稅費，我國對於持有階段所收的稅費是牌照稅，對於使用階段所收的稅費，根據公路法的文字來推論的話應該是汽燃費，但因為汽燃費目前是採隨車徵收，所以就容易讓民眾認為也是因為持有所徵收的稅費。所以在討論汽燃費的公平時，有關持有車輛所應該付出的稅收，建議應該由牌照稅去處理，而不要納到汽燃費的討論上，這樣應該比較容易聚焦。而汽燃費目前會採隨車徵收方式，應該也有其發展背景，剛剛部裡面的長官也有提到過去有幾次的變革，也有曾經用隨油徵收來處理，但最後因為某種原因選擇了隨車徵收，所以也就沒辦法實際以民眾使用車輛情形來計算汽燃費，這也就是現在民眾認為不公平而需要討論跟改進的地方。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "如果框框要留著的話，是不是用字要用精準一點。因為一般瓦斯分兩種，一種是桶裝瓦斯，一種是天然氣，公用天然氣事業是有基本費加上從量費（使用度數），這樣就比較精準，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果隨油徵收的話有兩塊問題，一個是有一些車子在路上行駛，但是沒有用油，會收不到費，另外一種是用了油但是沒有在路上行駛，應該被排除，這個部分收不到稅的地方，交通部鼓勵電動車發展而免徵燃料稅的政策要隨電動車普及而逐漸恢復課徵，另外一個是電動車就不付錢會造成不公平的狀況。不知道大家覺得怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "芳睿，不好意思，可以幫我把「燃料稅」都改成「汽燃費」。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "油太多也很難用，但是可以提這個提議，但是很難執行。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "為何難執行？" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "因為源頭收，但是沒有用電動車，從源頭包含發電廠都收了，從源頭收就是油進口的時候直接收了這個費，但是油的用途實在是太廣了，並不是只有電動車會用到，所有的人都會用油。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "能源稅想像的不只是汽油，而是包含電的部分，就可以收到電動車的稅。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "能源稅應該是說有用油我就收稅，這個是沒有問題的。用電我收稅也可以，但是為了電動車用電，所以收稅，但是用電的人太多了，為了推展電動車，每用1度電多收1元，所有的用電都要多收1元，但是80％都沒有用電動車，還是要徵收這一塊錢，用油跟用電的範圍都太廣了，可是為了電動車的部分，我們又說在能源稅裡面加了這一塊，你是因為電動車，所以在能源稅裡面加了1元，但是大家卻說沒有用電動車，我為什麼要收這一塊？沒有用電動車的人都要推1元給他。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我幫你補這兩張，電動車另訂收費辦法，另外一個是「難以確認電一定用到電動車上」。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "應該是「電動車」，因為針對電動車要另外一塊徵收方式。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好，左邊的能源就包含電跟油，因為其實都一樣的狀況，使用油不一定使用道路。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "主席我再補充一下能源稅的部分，剛剛有討論過汽燃費，也就是因為車輛使用道路，因此需要養護修建及安全管理所需要的經費籌措，能源稅研議的目的是為了要鼓勵節能減碳、解約能源而提升能源的使用效率，來達到溫室氣體的減量，這個目的跟汽燃費規費開徵、課徵的性質還是有差異的，我大概補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「能源稅的目的是減少溫室氣體排放跟汽燃費的目的不同」，感謝。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "電動車另訂收費辦法下面的粉紅色，是「難以確認電一定用到電動車上」，但是這整個脈絡下來並沒有人要確認這一件事，所以打這個困難處是不合理的。只說電動車要另訂收費辦法，但是並沒有說要從電開始收，所以這一張其實是不合邏輯的。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "我認同，但是現在是要找一個解決的，不能提一個不可行的，那就要談電動車要如何另訂。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "特斯拉繳什麼稅？" }, { "speaker": "眾人", "speech": "不用。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "如果大家一直討論，就找補執行方案，這個也可以；另外一種方案是找不到執行方案，所以就回到隨車徵收，最後只有隨車量徵收，沒有辦法用電、用油徵收，所以只好回到隨車徵收。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "現在大家討論這一件事，看有沒有辦法用電徵收？" }, { "speaker": "王銘德", "speech": "隨油徵收就是要考慮到使用量，因此要去思考可以得知電動車使用道路的方式，如果找不到就是現在的解法。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "沒有辦法用電、油收，一個是隨車徵收、一個是隨里程徵收，如果是隨車徵收就是回到現在的狀況；另外一個是用使用里程來收，就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "剛剛公路局的長官有提到基於鼓勵的性質沒有收費，這個可以提，我們沒有一定要收，當然我們要收可以想一個辦法。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "還是回到剛剛提到鼓勵公共運輸的這一件事，這個是大家認同的，另外一個是到底未來要不要收？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "是先有要不要收，然後再討論怎麼收，然後繞一大圈再回到隨車。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這樣的討論滿有意義的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家的想法是當天下午分組討論時就帶著大家繞一圈討論，是要隨油、隨車或者是隨什麼徵收。這個是一個方案。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "下面要再確認一下，也就是需要有瞭解電動車、油電混合車生里程的方式。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "回到剛剛討論的邏輯就會列出來，就是要另訂收費的方式，也就是隨電徵收，可能會打問號，還有隨車徵收、隨里程徵收，全部都是打問號，大家再來討論這一件事，這樣就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "剛剛交通部同仁有一個疑惑，已經做過研究我們再討論一次到底好不好，我個人會覺得因為有了研究，但是民眾不知道，我就帶他來想一次，也許就會瞭解交通部背後的苦心。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "芳睿補充的時候，我們先往下走。" }, { "speaker": "江芷瑛", "speech": "去年研究提出來的方案並沒有併入能源稅這個方案，也不應該放在隨油徵收下面的分支，應該是第四方案，如果是能源稅問題的話，已經是另外一個層次了，沒有一定要使用者付費或者是專款專用的問題，也不是由交通部來收，所以把它放在隨燃料徵收的下面，我覺得好像不太合理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不過這樣說有人提到可以併入能源稅，當然我可以理解是費，也就是使用規費，因此併入稅是有問題的，併入稅也沒有辦法達到原來的目的，因此我會覺得現在的這個說法應該還可以，當然我可以理解這個疑惑。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "那只是民眾的建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "並不代表政府就是這樣建議，跟大家稍微補充說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "綠色（便利貼）都是純粹的建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "現行營業車輛會因為隨油徵收而加重，這個部分是加強社會溝通、公共運輸應配套或補貼，但是也有人提到營業用車使用路面最多，卻減免收取不合理，計程車是由計程車工會提報，依據計程車的報告書成本計算而成。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "有凍漲嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "在第10點有提到，政府沒有看到我們這一群人是在水生火熱之中嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "兩年前就漲過了，他們每兩年就會漲一次。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以沒有這一件事嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "計程車不是不用付汽燃費嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "主席資料的背景，是有人提案取消計程車的燃料費跟牌照稅，所以有計程車駕駛員工會跳出來寫意見，當時我們跟他們說不用急，還沒有到五千人，也不一定會成案。只是當初講了一大堆，目前重點在於計程車業者知道他們會被到徵到汽燃費，對他們的影響會比較大。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "之前有提到免徵的部分，當然是在一個時代背景下的政府政策，但是我們現在談的是徵收方式，這個部分應該不是在這邊討論的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個層次其實跟我們的議題不一樣，但是雖然是這樣子，但是我們可能會議上還是會被人家提到，所以我們還是要先放好。" }, { "speaker": "江芷瑛", "speech": "協作會議有討論到收費，心智圖下面有一個藍色便利貼是「補充目前狀況」，我們有一個目前研究的網址，是否適合放上去？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "適合。所以你們也開了很多社會溝通工作坊。我先把網址貼在這裡，晚一點再補充上去。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "加強社會溝通的部分，接下來是依據不同的車輛收取不同油品費用，會產生油品的問題，當然有幾個方式是收取相同費用、後續退費，然後還有民眾觀感不佳，還有一些辨識機制來流用，還有一個先行徵收再退費，這個是剛剛提到的，還有一個是確認身分辨識機制，還有漁船用油依照航程記錄器核算可購油量，這個是官方有訂好標準，但是汽車好像沒有。另外一個是農機用油是依照訂定用油基準來核算油量，然後核發用油憑單，加油時用使用證與用油憑單來徵稅。另外一個是內政部警政署要想的是加強油品流用查緝、退補及用途辨識機制，不知道這個部分有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "如果隨油徵收就有這個問題，以前會按照各種不同的農機去給不同的油量，然後加完就沒了，而現在是農機使用，也就是用身分證去扣，現在農機去加油，應該是農機使用證，那個才能證明農機使用證，每個農機都會給一定的基準量，在那個基準量去加，將來5％就不用付了，所以是少1、2元，在買油的時候就看油價，因此就會少付那一些錢，就直接扣抵，也就是身分證跟農機使用，在用條碼的時候就可以直接刷掉。比如一千公升或者是多少公升，那個是什麼額度？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "定額的免稅額度？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "對。是直接扣掉5％，實務上是ok，我們過去是用很笨的方法，現在那一個問題都解決了，然後又解決另外一個流用的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "為什麼可以解決流用的問題？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "應該是說基本上每一輛車會用多少輛幾乎都固定，你不可能那個量很大，每一輛車、每一個農民加了多少量都知道，你說開了我的車子去加，只有給柴油多少量，好比都是柴油的，因為農機都是柴油的，因此現在就會出現，加油站是有農機，開去加油，就知道你不是加在農機上，那個問題反而就變少，就回到實際面。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為你要QR code？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "因為後台都有資料，現在是開農機來加或者是開你開的車來加都知道，所以這一個他知道每一個都幾乎有攝影機，因此這一塊流用的機率就更低了，所以徵收的技術會比較低。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "加油之後拿去，這樣知道嗎？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "差5％，我用現金加可以少2元，我幹麻大費周章？所以流用的機率是機會成本的概念，也就是用現金加，現在就會少1、2元，不刷卡，用特定的卡也會少1、2元，反而是用更科學的方法，看哪一個人去加，因為是用身分別，所以很清楚知道油跑到哪裡去，有異常的話，從後面就知道為何會這麼多，防弊的機制跑到資訊管理，因此會更好操作。" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "過去用很笨的方法，加油的時候要用一張油單，就是給你多少去加，現在已經沒有了，這個我們搞了很久，剛開始連台塑不願意，信用卡都要跟著弄，弄了一大堆，本來是要用加油卡，他們說一張多少，到最後是用最笨的方法，就是身分證，上面就一個碼，你一刷就知道了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實加油站有攝影機可以確保農民真的開農機來，而且原本現金著地更多，沒有流用動機。漁船用油有要補充嗎？" }, { "speaker": "邱宜賢", "speech": "「航程紀錄器」的「紀」應該是此字，然後改成「核發」改成「實際」。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "農委會的先進有提到農機用油這一塊，寫法是不是跟漁業用油一樣？符合這一些規定的話，就免稅，我不曉得實務操作有所謂定額的免稅額中扣抵機制嗎？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "可能一個農民有三、五台，也有可能只有一台，有柴油跟汽油的農機，所以會給不同的額度，因此會給他一年的量，每一次加油就會自然扣掉那個量。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "買多少油，只要符合規定就免稅，有定額的免稅額度？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "應該是符合規定，但是有一個量的概念。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "是不是符合規定的量就給他免稅？我不知道實務的操作是不是這樣子？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "有量的管制，我們也避免流用。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "符合這個量我們就給他免稅？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "我看原來的文字感覺上免稅有一個額度。" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "有規定量。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "符合規定的量就給予免稅？" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊就先這樣子。「目前依照車用車習慣共同負擔，是比較簡易與合理可行的做法」，另外一個是「建議以車重與行駛里程為汽燃費計算因子，進行可行性分析，並建立車輛、總重與費率的關係」。大家有沒有什麼建議？" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "隨油徵稅，致翔有提到因為議題是燃料費，所以應該是「隨油徵費」吧！" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "下面的部分是不是參考資料就好了，這個地方是不是比較細緻的東西，讓大家對一下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為已經40分了，只剩下20分，我怕時間不夠，我快速帶過去一下。這個地方是「隨車重徵收」的部分，免徵對象其實跟現在一樣，徵收的機制是現行的，可能增加「線上繳款」，效益是「比現行做法公平一些，不是隨cc數」、「比較容易計算，民眾容易瞭解，也沒有隱私問題」，「雖車徵收無法反映使用者付費原則」是車車聞提到的。接著是「取締地下油管行」，這個本來是政府的責任，不好意思，這個是對應到旁邊的問題，這個是有關於流用的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是「隨燃油徵收」，免徵對象的作業機制是包含「運輸業者免徵」、「建立退費案、加油身分辨識機制」。「離島」是因為我們國家在都會區有一些大眾運輸的，離島人員沒有辦法使用這麼多的大眾運輸，他們常常因為多收錢，道路也沒有比較好，所以可能有一些一定程度的減免，要設立一些減免費額，其餘是依照方式來辦理，這個是報告裡面寫的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "徵收機制是委由零售業者與批發業者來代徵，也要排除用油、不用路的對象，包含漁船農機用油，旅館、工廠這一些建立事後申報退費機制，只是先收、後退，民眾觀感不佳，而且行政成本高。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "農機本來就要出示一些農機證明，不會麻煩，只是產生價差，就會產生流用的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「隨油徵收」有人會認為可以收到更多的錢，但不確定是真的還是假的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「流用」的問題是有人提到地下油行是政府的責任，要說什麼呢？反正就是都要抓的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個地方我個人比較不知道該如何處理，因為有一點放在一起。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "計程車長年被主管機關要求不能漲價，這個就刪掉了，因為沒有證明的說法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果要收電車燃料費，應該把規則訂清楚。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果你把一個沒有證明的東西刪掉，這個也要刪掉。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "感謝提醒。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "這是民眾提出來的問題，如果大家討論，大家覺得這不是共識，理論上也可以說就刪掉。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "不確定是不是事實。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "計程車長年被主管機關要求不得漲價，我們就寫「目前有漲價機制」。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "這個跟我們在談的無關。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好，沒關係，我們現場收到的話再加起來。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "儘量不要放不是事實的東西。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我繼續帶下去，「燃油無法完全反映車輛輕重對道路破壞程度的差異，還有電動車的方式來討論」、「加油時繳交，可能感受為油價上漲」、「目前曾經50年7月至51年8月實施過，導致民間流用與地下油行猖獗」。車車聞那一篇文章提到「地下油行是十年前的狀況，跟現在不一樣」，但是交通部邀集專家討論，認為現今仍可能會發生。理由交通部是不是可以補充一下？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "這邊講的是針對油品流用的部分，現在比較不強調地下油行。過去講地下油行是因為當時油品可能有經過一些管制，所以有一些人就去用來路不明的油；而現在講地下油行比較像地下經濟的感覺，有些人可能透過一些方式取得不用課徵費用的油品，然後裝到自己的車輛上，這樣子就是形同流用的情形。" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "我們瞭解自用加儲油設施在一定的容量以下是不用登記的，而且所有的油品也不一定是從加油站出去，也有從零售業者，這個地方有可能形成流用的黑洞，所以才說現今仍可能發生。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這裡看到被切兩塊，一個是地下油行，一個是流行的問題，地下油行不太可能發生的意思是？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "可能要請教比較專業的能源局或經濟部會比較瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "依照石油管理法立法目的是促進石油業的健全發展、維護石油市場的產銷秩序，所以我們會去要求業者要符合法令規定，也會維護合法業者的權益，就會取締違法經營者，在這一個部分，各地方政府就已經都會依照需要去成立聯合取締小組，去取締類似大家所說的地下油行；除了聯合取締以外，也有一個檢舉專線鼓勵檢舉跟提供獎金。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "過去因為漁船用油流用問題在漁業署利用航程紀錄器追蹤用油量之後，其實流用的事情就越來越少，因為是價差，所以會有流用的誘因，這個是第一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "第二個部分，我們在汽柴油的零售是在加油站，如果做零售業務，一定要設站加油，這是石油管理法裡面所規定的，一定要設站，才可以對車輛加油，這是很明確的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "另外一個是汽柴油批發業，當初立法納入汽柴油批發業，是因為有送油服務的需求，譬如醫院要用柴油發電機，還有鍋爐也要用柴油，這些都有送油服務的需求。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "這一個部分就由柴油批發業者去中油油庫或是台塑化的油庫提油，送到需要用油的地方，像學校、鍋爐或是發電機要用油，這部分依照石油管理法是有作管理。基本上柴油除了在車輛用外，還有很多像剛剛說到農機漁船，又或者是動力機械、堆高機、工廠發電機，這一些都是要用柴油的，這個部分就是用批發業送油，這個是可以作區別的，也就是送油服務可以給工廠或營造工程。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "我們對業者的管理是油源是不是合法、銷售油品品質是否符合國家標準及油品流向，以上補充石油管理法管理範圍。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "油源是否合法，目前是有一些管制機制的，有一些柴油的批發業者、工廠及相關業者使用，只是價差還是會有流用的動機，不知道大家是不是覺得ok？剛剛有一些點沒有catch到。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "這個要看收的費用多少錢，因為我們不知道一公升要加多少錢。" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "要看加的價差多少。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為時間差不多，我比較建議有關於解法的部分，可以大家會後看有意見再送給我們修。先把時間用在至少前面政府盤點的部分，我們把它處理掉。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思耽誤大家的時間，內政部的單位是警政署，這個地方應該是「取締非法油品交易」，我不知道可不可以？他的支持論點是不希望警察過勞稽查地下油行。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我先說明一下各個單位的立場是從哪裡來的，102年10月8日汽車燃料使用費徵收方式座談會議裡面所截取出來的各個單位的立場，如果各個單位立場有變，麻煩請跟我說一下。裡面有一些單位其實有一些是我沒有看清楚的，所以請大家幫忙補充一下，內政部ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "內政部沒有人來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是經濟部的部分。兩個單位的立場是相同的嗎？你們跟這個案子的關係是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "汽柴油銷售管理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "經濟部的地方是反對隨油徵收，也就是擔心物價上漲。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "隨油徵收會讓民眾誤解油價上漲，所以不能讓加油站背黑鍋。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "那寫「擔心隨油徵收導致民眾誤解油價上漲而導致物價上漲」。接著是財政部國庫署，有立場嗎？" }, { "speaker": "張意欣", "speech": "汽燃費的徵收，主要是為支應公路養護、修建及安全管理所需經費，目前民眾關切汽燃費徵收方式之合理性，其涉及實務執行技術層面問題。民眾對其名稱或以稅、費不同名詞稱之，如能說明現行係徵收汽燃費，是規費性質不是稅，則似無需強調說明稅費之差異，且比較能聚焦問題核心。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "那時提到的差別是用字混淆。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們用字不混淆就沒有這一件事嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "但是這並不是一天、兩天的事情。" }, { "speaker": "劉青峰", "speech": "前面引到釋字第539號的雙重課稅，其實大法官整段在闡明這個地方，如果大法官解釋的東西，太過於專業，以至於大家看不懂，基本上好像也沒有辦法，因為我們看這個文字也沒有辦法再更白話，因為本來就不一樣的東西，大法官講說不一樣的東西就是不一樣的待遇，這樣很白話，要釐清的部分是在哪一個部分，需要再釐清稅跟規費的不同、比較及分析之類的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我可以說明的是，我在事前為了瞭解稅跟規費的不同，我還特別找致翔幫我上課，可想而知，很多民眾像到場的附議人或者是邀請來的領袖，他們都會非常需要各位的說明，我們都可以試著做一件事，也就是把大法官的釋憲丟給自己小學、中學二年級的小朋友或者是丟給長輩們看，但是我相信沒有幾個長輩看得懂需要我們幫忙做翻譯，我想各位的專業一定可以發揮很大的功能，這個是我原來想像各位如果在這一個會議上可以扮演的角色。當然也是看各位覺得怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我覺得是這樣子，第一個是議題的本身回到提案人的文字來看，提案人要問的是使用燃料費是否公平，如果會議前5分鐘很快講一下稅跟費是不一樣的東西，就解了，然後就往後走，財政部的角色沒有那麼重。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有幾個做法，我們可以會前提供議題手冊的方式，這裡面有一段話，可以請財政部的同仁可以幫我們說一下稅跟費不一樣，民眾有提到稅是誤解，也許200字之內把問題解決掉之後，財政部的同仁也許可以下莊。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "同意，只要做好轉譯的工作就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "張意欣", "speech": "如果一開頭像致翔所提就說明我們所收的是汽燃費，而不是稅，是不是就比較清晰？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "以上認同，我們目前框定的目標是在燃料費這一塊，但是討論到解法的時候，還是有人認為收稅可能比收費更有可行性，又或者是認為某一種程度的稅捐會比道路的維管費更好的話，財政部還是需要一位同仁來解釋稅在這一個地方不見得更好的原因是什麼，我能夠想像的大概是這兩個部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "財政部之後要不要與會我們會後討論。主計總處的部分我不確定有沒有來。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "農委會的漁業署、農糧署說明漁船用油跟說明農機用油的免稅制度。" }, { "speaker": "邱宜賢", "speech": "我們建議說明比照用油制度。因為漁船沒有使用道路，所以應該是免徵收的對象裡面。接著，我們是有身分識別的機制。" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "還有一個是「農機沒有使用道路應免徵汽燃費」的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是路政司及運輸研究所，路政司的立場供汽燃費管理單位，我只是隨便舉例或者是沒有立場？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "這應該是後續進行里程研究的時候有探討這個部分，但是應該不太像我們的立場。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "你們對於這一個案子的立場是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "不管是什麼樣的徵收方式，要確保目前的財源穩定性。" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "應該是說哪一種方式對你們徵收的行政成本比較低？" }, { "speaker": "任禮恩", "speech": "就是行政成本比較低，徵收簡便，不會勞動到各個部會。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "會勞動到各個部會，會委託經濟部來收。不管何者徵收方式，應確保財源穩定，並考量行政成本。這樣可以嗎？是不是還有環保署？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為提案人的文字有提到節能減碳，所以才找環保署。" }, { "speaker": "胡明輝", "speech": "我們看到上面有寫跟空污費有關，所以我們才來的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天討論了兩個小時，幾乎沒有討論到環保署，可不可以下莊？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我覺得可以，因為沒有提到太多，也不是說要讓車子不能再開。" }, { "speaker": "胡明輝", "speech": "只是空污費隨油徵收，大概是這樣子而已。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不過空污費是節能減碳，是有正面的相關，就算漁船都還是會有污染。相關的單位是中油公司。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "價格的部分，我剛剛是替中油講的，要搬過來，因寫到「反對隨油徵收」，其實是擔心會造成加油站零售價上漲。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "經濟部這邊的立場是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "我們過去一直以來都沒有反對隨油徵收，只是柴油徵收須請交通部把收退費機制審慎研擬好，對業者才公平。如果可以用里程的話，會更具體，不會影響到業者。" }, { "speaker": "江芷瑛", "speech": "運研所想要更正一下，我們並未提到短期先做車重的建議，本所的支持論點請改為同左邊交通部一樣的說法，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接下來是中油的立場，中油ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著看是不是可以聯繫到的人，這一案其實很大的部分是跟民眾說明，我想各位應該會需要學者專家來陳述一下論點或者是觀點，這邊會建議邀請到相關的學者專家，我看到黃台生跟馮正民老師是在會議紀錄當中，交通部如果覺得有更適合的專家，可以再更正，又或者是你們就邀請適合的專家，我這邊會比較建議你們邀請學者來說明，這樣會更適合一點，學者儘量是找他說話，大家會如沐春風的那一種，有一些學者並不是那麼擅長講話，而是比較擅長寫論文。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "像車車聞等是我看到的人，這個是建議，看你們要不要邀請？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "不好意思，車車聞是媒體或者是部落格？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好像是一個個人媒體，我不確定。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果是一般的大眾傳播媒體參加協作會議，我們會有不同的處理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我會把它寫出來的原因是，這一篇文章是他們寫的，這看起來是很個人，但是沒有寫作者，我不知道作者是誰。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "你先聯絡看看。" }, { "speaker": "余家光", "speech": "剛剛有提到其實兩個小時都沒有cue到我們，唯一相關的是空污費是可以隨油徵收，為何汽燃費為何不行？是不是我們可以提供一段文字，然後我們就可以下莊。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可以。致翔點頭如搗蒜。" }, { "speaker": "李志忠", "speech": "主席，財政部說明剛剛致翔有提到稅跟費差異的部分，我們是不是綁一樣的模型，也就是提供兩百字，然後在會議一開始的時候說明，讓大家釋疑。心智圖的部分是不是可以建議一下？財政部就國庫署的位置，是不是可以拿掉？財政部就直接「說明稅費差異」，可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好。到時可能會有議題手冊的部分，再請各位幫忙校對。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有幾點再麻煩，我們可能還要再跟各位確認到底有哪一些單位是需要上台簡報，簡報的時間多久，我想交通部是一定要簡報的。芳睿有覺得誰一定要簡報的？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "為什麼我們剛剛要盤點最上面的心智圖，其實就是為了梳理我們要論述的前後順序與重點，所以基本上簡報就是按照現在這個架構，也就是法規面的問題、相對應的回應及社會公平面遇到的問題、對應的解法、政府的解法與回應，基本上就是按照這樣的脈絡來做簡報，今天來談就是看誰適合說明這一整串，來作為一開始協作會議的資訊平衡，幫助接下來的討論可以比較順利，所以在這樣的狀況下，可能要去思考誰比較適合去說這一整個的論述。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "當然還是請主辦機關，至於其他部會的部分，應該是看到時議題手冊做出來以後，有要簡報就再加，目前是主辦機關交通部就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有一個額外的事情是資料請求，我有看到當時你們的會議紀錄有提到美國隨油徵收以後，卻發現費用變少了，可能需要稍微可以的話，幫我們說明一下，當時美國採取隨油徵收發生什麼問題，導致後續不好的狀況大概是什麼，我覺得有這個資料量寫到協作會議的議題手冊，幫助大家瞭解，如果真的轉換會發生什麼事情，我這邊沒有什麼議題需要處理了。各位有沒有什麼我們還沒有處理到，而各位覺得很重要的？交通部如果簡報10分鐘，你們方便嗎？你們可能要說明滿多東西的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這個案子他們可以簡報比較久一點，因為提案人不來。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，因為提案人不會來，所以有一個程序上的問題是我們要不要直播，他會不會想要遠端看會議實況？我覺得會前先再聯絡提案人一次，如果他有需求，我們就採取網路直播的方式，直接讓線上的網友看這一場會議，如果提案人沒有這樣的請求，我們就告訴他說可以會後再看網路上公開的其他資料，但是就不是影像紀錄，大概差別是在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，在程序上我們每一次的協作會議都會在會議一開場問與會的所有人，包含民眾說今天的會議有架攝影機，原則上是供行政院內本的同仁參考，但是在場有任何一位民眾認為網路上有五千人連署都看得到，因此強烈要求要直播的時候，我們也會再次確認所有人的意願，有沒有人不同意直播，只要有人希望直播，我們就會問有沒有人不同意直播。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果某一位同仁說今天真的不要直播，怕會因而開會開不好、話講不出來，我們也會做一個裁示，既然有人不同意，我們就不直播，而這中間的攻防，場面會有一點緊張，就是讓大家事先有一個心理準備。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "根據剛才討論的方案，當天協作會議下午的分組討論，應該會討論有關於徵收方案。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我有把討論題目寫出來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「我們可以如何公平徵收道路維管費用，讓用路人可以接受，也同時鼓勵大眾交通運輸」。" }, { "speaker": "翁震炘", "speech": "因為大概跟農機、農機用油沒有相關，不管是隨油徵收或者是哪一個方式都不會收到，所以我們應該可以下莊吧！沒有使用到道路。" }, { "speaker": "邱宜賢", "speech": "漁船依現行法令規定，如果是現行公路法，也就是道路養護維運的概念之下來討論這一個事情，我想漁船跟農機應該不會被規範到。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "理解，今天會議上有一直麻煩你們發言，所以要回頭問交通部，如果你們現在不方便講，會後再講沒有關係。今天會議上會一直cue到你們的原因是，因為有人希望你們在場解釋，雖然今天我們講清楚了，但是有可能民眾會聯想到這一塊，所以你們跟環保署最大的不同是，你們今天一直有被cue到，主要的差別是在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我會後跟主辦單位確認一下，是不是真的需要你們在場，到時再看開會通知決定，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我覺得你們可能比較難下莊，因為確實會處理到用油不用路、用路不用油的狀況，因為你們是用油不用路的代表。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "就先這樣子了，今天會議到這邊，非常感謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天非常榮幸有這個機會可以來台南市，這邊跟大家分享一下行政院各部會推動「開放政府聯絡人」的一些相關經驗。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天唐鳳會到場，所以我建議如果大家有什麼想要問的問題就可以拼命問她，各種很難回答的問題，或者是你們覺得在搞這一套到底是什麼東西，可以放膽來問。有人會覺得不敢放膽問，只要舉手站起來講話就會很害怕，到底怎麼辦呢？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "實際上的做法是：我們各位學員的名牌背後都有一個QR code，如果掃描的話，可以進到手機的網站，今天的課程可以歡迎大家低頭滑手機，如果手機掃描QR code比較不方便的話，也可以打slido，進去之後會有一個聊天室的介面，直接打1012，也就是今天的日期，這樣大家可以用匿名的方式在裡面直接提問，任何的問題最後唐鳳都會在今天課程最後一併解答。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我在會前瞭解，大家好像都已經被府裡面有先發文請各單位指派PO，在場各位都已經是作為台南市政府PO，也就是開放政府聯絡人，在行政院這邊的做法是，PO想要推動的理念很簡單，也就是「開放政府」。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "PO為了推動開放政府的理念，透過一個途徑是協作會議，可能需要一些工具來處理，這一些工具主要是用以人為本的設計來進行，告訴大家如果實際上要開一個跟民眾面對面溝通會議時要怎麼做，要透過哪一些適當會議的設計可以來收取大家的意見。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天作一個很簡單的開場，用問問題的方式：" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "PO是為了推動開放政府而設立，什麼是開放政府？為什麼需要做開放政府？比如大家的想像是，開放政府是不是就是把政府打開，民眾的意見可以進來，公務員是不是會變得更難做事？我們為什麼要推這個呢？到底有什麼好處，如果很認真想要推動開放政府，對我跟公務員有什麼好處，是不是增加大家的工作，變得更難做事而已？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果要推動開放政府，到底是誰來做？真的是在場的這一些PO嗎？或者是需要更多的人一起來處理？PO的全名是「開放政府聯絡人」，要聯絡什麼？以公部門幾個職稱：國會聯絡人、新聞聯絡人，好像都有特定的聯絡對象、目標，開放政府聯絡人到底要聯絡什麼？問題慢慢比較近一點，我們被選為PO，有可能根本不想當PO，有可能是長官指派我就來了，可是我不見得想做，那怎麼辦？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "像公部門都很忙，PO忙不過來怎麼辦？我根本就應付現行的工作很累、很辛苦了，每一天都要加班了，現在又叫我兼一個PO，我又更忙了，連日常的業務都做不來了，怎麼可以做？所以PO到底對我有什麼優處？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外一個問題，如果今天忙得過來，也認同開放政府的理念，結果在各局處推工作的時候，好像不太理我，該怎麼辦？如果今天要做開放政府的工作，透過PO來召開協作會議，到底有什麼用？可以幫助我什麼？又或者是行禮如儀的公聽會，開完就開完了？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "協作會議進行的設計，包含公部門及民間最多是30至40個人，這3、40個人就可決定政策嗎？要開很多場會議或者是問網友的意見？到底如何讓政策慢慢成形？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最後，協作會議一定要按照我們今天講課的方式開嗎？有沒有別的方式開？有沒有更符合台南市府期待的方式開？用別的方法開就不叫做開放政府嗎？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最後一個問題是，今天可以回家了嗎？我的意思是我們PO、想要推動開放政府，想要試著用比較新的方式來做跟民間的溝通，這個東西到底會不會增加大家的業務量，會不會讓大家變得更辛苦，是不是每一天可以準時回家，這個是公務同仁非常關心的事情，所以我今天開場只簡單提問這一些問題，相信接下來張專案顧問，她會透過服務設計及相關的流程來跟大家解釋協作會議會用到哪一些程序及工具，億可以試著讓大家減輕對PO的恐慌或者是覺得不知道今天接了這個工作到底能不能準時回家或者是早一點解決公務上的困難，大家除了想要準時回家之外，常常會有一些棘手的業務，是一個陳年的問題，是不是可以協助我們跟民眾間有更多的溝通。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我說一下張顧問的背景，她原本在英國內閣辦公室叫做Policy Lab，英國有這樣的制度是如果政策在形成過程中會經過政策實驗室，受到這個政策影響的人，他們可能會有哪一些想法，而不是走傳統的方式，由行政部門做成草案到立法院，然後就過了，開始推動。如果先經過政策實驗室的試作及設計，接著走接下來的流程，會不會更好呢？接下來的時間就會交給張小姐，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家好，現在用簡短大概10分鐘左右的時間，跟大家說一下致翔講開放政府、開放政府聯絡人下面的「協作」意思為何？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來的說明會聚焦在協作會議跟以人為本的設計，來支持開放政府的理念。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "講到以人為本，我們講的以人為本是什麼意思？創新必須要從瞭解公民的需求開始，如果我們可以一開始就知道他們的需求，這樣可以幫助我們聚焦要做的事情，可以幫助我們降低支出與風險，如果去執行的東西，並不是公民社會所期待跟需要的，額外的路線其實就是我們很多的成本跟風險就會壓在那個上面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "講到公民？公民是什麼意思？大家可以看到三個不同人民想法，左邊是在講君主國的人民，中間是在講把人民當作顧客的想法，右邊是在講民主社會所說的公民。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家可以看到這三種不同的人民跟政府以及人民間的關係，其實不太一樣的，我們在這邊看到的是，在民主社會所說的公民，其實是互相去協助彼此的，就算是公部門也是一個協助者，而不是把人民當作一個顧客去為你服務；人民在這個脈絡下只能選擇政府給他們的東西，人民的態度就是一直向政府要求要給什麼（中間那一欄）；在公民社會下的公民是大家可以一起做好，並不是一味要求，是可以一起創造，並不是我們可以選擇的，這個是我們所期待公民協作的意思。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們看了一下協作與解決問題流程的關係，我們在協作的時候會經過幾個階段，這個是時間軸的盤點，從我們開始有一些事件發生，到我們決定要專注某個議題並處理議題，我們開始會做很多的研究與盤點，其實是一個發散的狀態，因為我們要不停地蒐集資料；到一個階段之後要往下收斂，歸納問題的重要內容，我們會在中間點出一個問題，我們才會問這個問題是否正確，通常問出來的問題直接接到解法是比較危險的，因為沒有經過通盤的省思與歸納。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "當我們可以問對問題的時候，我們就可以開始回答與發展各種不同的概念，有可能是政策、法規與服務等等，發展到一個階段之後，我們會開始收斂一些細節，到測試與試辦，最後才會執行，這個是我們會經過的一些階段。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們會用的協作方法與工具，今天並不會帶到太多，但是等一下有一些實作可以讓大家體驗協作會議是什麼樣的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來大家可以看到接下來的方法與工具，可以想想為什麼會這樣被設計、為什麼要這樣做，去思考背後做事的方法，又或者是看到目前呈現出來的樣子。我們今天會比較偏向介紹背後的概念，並用這樣的心態去發展接下來的議程。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們回到協作方法與工具背後的重要概念，如果從問題盤點跟歸納來看，其實每一個利害關係人的注意力分配不同，這個是什麼意思？如果我們今天關注一個議題好了，我今天是NGO，或者我是政府，又或者是我會被這一件事影響的公民，我可能會針對那一個議題所看到的面向不同，我們注意力放的地方不同，就是因為有這樣子的不同，所以有時在溝通會出現一些落差，可能我們在講的是看到真實不同的面向，而這一些其實都是事實，但是什麼真實？其實沒有人是錯的，只是切的角度不一樣，所以重點並不是我們去挑戰誰的想法，而是我們可不可以看得到不同利害關係人從什麼樣的角度來看這一件事並幫助我們溝通，這個是我們協作很重要的基礎，也就是從同理心來瞭解不同思考的面向開始，因此沒有誰對誰錯。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "舉一個之前做過的例子，像蘇花改能不能讓機車上去通行的這一件事，這個是在公共政策網路參與平台上有非常多的機車族討論這一個議題，他們認為蘇花公路在天氣變化，也就是豪雨的情況之下會有落石的危險，因此會覺得機車族要走蘇花改會比較安全，因此他們認為的危險是落石掉落的危險，我以道路管理主管機關來看的話，我認為的危險是今天蘇花改的車種混流，在管理上來說是一個危險。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這兩個不同的切入點就會因為我所在的位置跟我看的角度不同，所以我就認為你應該要去蘇花改或者是走蘇花公路，就會造成這樣的結果，但是沒有人是錯的，他們看到真的體會的面向，重點是可不可以好好定義我們認為的危險，然後認為彼此的在意點，並試著去尋找，對大家來說並不是危險的方式，然後從這樣的基礎，找到大家可以接受的共同價值，然後再往前推進。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "因此我們如何降低認知的偏誤？希望可以讓資訊進入政策制定者、服務規劃者可以更涵融，因此要詳盡盤點與歸納問題、需求，看到並同理不同面向，然後去趨近對於真實的瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們可以尊重各種不同的人的觀點，我們可以瞭解真實的樣貌，可以在同中求一或者是異中求同，如果不這麼做，我們可能會問錯問題，並帶我們走向偏誤的道路，會增加更多的風險，因為沒有在前面就釐清利害關係人的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著問對問題是很重要的，愛因斯坦說「如果給我1小時拯救地球，我會花59分鐘去界定問題，花1分鐘去解決。」我們是為後續的解法立下多大的基石，因此確定問題跟定義，我們也分享之前處理過相對的案子。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果我們的問題是「如何安排直升機後送的急重症病患到高雄」，因為當地沒有資源，因此我們問的是如何安排直升機後送；另外一個問題是，「如何提升在地急重症醫療資源」，這個會有兩個不同的結果。我問第一個問題是安排直升機安排在哪裡、花多少錢維護跟誰要處理這一件事，也就是誰要花資源在上面；但如果是問第二個問題是當地的醫生如何留下來、有哪一些設備，像有哪一些是要增購的，可以幫助當地的醫療資源，並不會直接提升如何把病人後送，是一個更根本解決問題的方向，因此在這個時候就可以看得出來，我們在問題盤點跟歸納之後所問出來的問題，是不是可以精準到後續規劃的方向，也就是朝一個健康的方向前進，並不是治標的方式。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "另外一個問題是「我們要不要修法推動托嬰中心及幼兒園強制裝設監視器或錄影設備」，另外一個問法是「我們可以如何讓減少兒童受虐，讓學童可以有一個安全上課的環境，在尊重老師教學的前提之下」。所以我問說「可不可以幫我蓋一個橋到對面」，大家可能會直接想我要蓋什麼樣的橋，但是我如果問的方式是「可以如何過這一條河」，大家可能會有不同的想像。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以如果我們可以確定問對問題，就可以幫助我們的解法，可能有更開闊的解法，以及解決根本問題的做法，並不是依據表面的問題，然後做下一步對應的解法。因此我們需要共創解法的階段，也就是一開始想公民協作的理念，也就是把每一個公民想是可以共同創造，並不是某一方直接推出一個做法，然後別的人就會去呼應並作選擇。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們之前有做過幾次，也就是讓各種不同的利害關係人，包含一般民眾、專家學者、相對應有關係的NGO或者是公司、政府單位的人，可以從不同的角度一起去共創可能的解法，讓我們未來的公共服務或者是政策在規劃的過程中，可以思考到每一個人的角色，並不是某一個人思想偏誤，也就是造成未來的結果而造成全體人民的身上。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "PO制度跟協作會議是開啟公民參與或者是跨部門協作的另外一種可能性，並沒有要取代任何一種現代的機制，而是多了一種不同的選擇，讓人民可以除了有投票、抗議，作為除了酸民之外的另外一個選擇。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "另外一個重要的是，公部門先開始相信人民，人民才會相信政府。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著是換雨蒼，雨蒼會把實際所說的回饋，在現場寫成紀錄，然後投影出來給大家看，這樣的好處是可以確保等一下記錄下來的言論是不是跟大家所講出來的言論是吻合的，也可以方便我們作接下來的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們接下來會有30分鐘，讓大家討論大家對於開放政府聯絡人，身為PO有什麼的期待或者是什麼顧慮，都可以讓大家發言，我們會用傳麥克風的方式，一邊紀錄就會分類，因此在大家講完之後就可以馬上看出大家對於這一件事的期待有什麼不同的類別、大家的顧慮點有什麼類別，這都可以幫助我們在未來去做開放政府聯絡人相關制度規劃的時候，可以更貼近各位的需求。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們今天來並不是在中央已經做了這一些實際的案子，就要大家做的樣態走，而是可以用我們的經驗來作啟發，也想要讓各位找出在台南地方政府覺得有什麼樣的內容、願景，是大家希望可以一起達成的，還有哪一些憂慮是希望大家可以避免、調整，我們都希望可以在今天聽到大家真實的聲音。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "依據大家的需求可以調整未來台南PO制度如何運行，我們會有30分鐘來進行，讓每個人都可以回饋。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們另外30分鐘會移到小教室，另外的小教室就會依據大家所提出來的願景與憂慮去想，如果這個願景是大家想要達成的話，下一步是什麼，我們開始會思考一些細節，就是有哪一些資源可以幫助我們，有哪一些單位可以協助執行。有哪一些憂慮的話，我們可以一起去思考不要發生，因此從大家的問題去想需求，然後再依據大家的需求去想下一步的解法，所以大家離開今天的議程之後，可以有實際的東西來作下一步的行動。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一個問題是，大家覺得PO可以做什麼？我先問願景，等一下再問憂慮，大家都可以回答這三個問題的想法。第二個問題是，PO需要做什麼？第三個問題是，PO想要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "A", "speech": "我不曉得PO是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "你覺得PO是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "簡單來說，今天受訓的課程是「開放政府聯絡人」，所以現在這一個部分是請大家講一講我是開放政府聯絡人，我覺得可以做什麼，或者是我不能做什麼，或者是我根本不知道什麼是開放政府聯絡人，都可以，沒有關係，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我稍微解釋一下好了，以前其實有所謂的國會聯絡人，在中央層級是針對立法院，在地方層級是針對議員，也有一個所謂的新聞聯絡人，也就是針對相關的媒體窗口。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "PO的職位是針對民間的窗口，所以你可以思考一下是假設未來這個地方要跟民間接軌，有機會引入民間的力量來協助，或者是需要什麼東西要請教民眾，我們在這裡面可以扮演什麼樣的角色，當然不是跟民間接軌，還有各位未來彼此都會透過PO這個制度來互相瞭解、橫向聯繫。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "PO有一個好處是，就我們中央這個地方，PO上面是次長層級，下面是業務單位，所以是一個縱向的溝通管道。" }, { "speaker": "B", "speech": "PO可以參加會議，並且可以對民眾溝通，謝謝。彙整民眾的需求。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果你身為PO，你對自己的期待？" }, { "speaker": "B", "speech": "適時回應民眾需求。" }, { "speaker": "C", "speech": "PO應該是扮演資料蒐集或者意見蒐集的平台。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "需要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "C", "speech": "民眾意見蒐集回來要有相關的分析，就是把問題找到相關局處的協助，可能是往上、可能是往下，有些是需要跟民間合作。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "自己想要做的內容是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "C", "speech": "我覺得PO最重要的是，民眾的問題或者是蒐集到的問題做一個正確判斷與分析，這樣來走才不會走錯方向。" }, { "speaker": "D", "speech": "看所處的層級，因為我是在區公所，區公所最主要是對一般的市民，由里長或者是里民直接對我們反映事項。再來就是看民眾所反映的事項，我們研考一下、研究一下需要解決的對口單位是什麼，如果像市政府的局處首長，我們再轉到上級單位幫我們處理。" }, { "speaker": "D", "speech": "如果說PO想要做什麼？那就是建構一個上下可以溝通的管道，讓一般民眾每一個反映出來問題逐項解決，讓我們的社會建立安全與和樂。" }, { "speaker": "E", "speech": "像我們目前在文化部裡面推的，也就是公民參與的社區營造，對於一個領導者來講，應該算PO的角色，因為他可以把民眾的問題或者是希望解決的問題，透過領導者來討論這樣的問題，然後規劃成一個計畫來執行，彙整全民當地民眾的意見，然後來執行這樣的計畫。" }, { "speaker": "E", "speech": "所以如果站在地方政府來講，應該也是類似，依照我們的基層政府來說，如果有任何的規劃跟民眾比較有相關的話，可能透過PO，也是類似代表民眾的人民來參與意見，可能可以提供當地地方建設或是對於比較有建設性的建設，由地方政府來執行，我想這也是PO應該擔任的角色，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "E", "speech": "想要做什麼應該是：對政府的職責或者是對民眾的願望能夠去做，並執行，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "對不起，可不可以說明一下這三個問題的差別？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "「可以做什麼的意思」是，可以跟需要有一點不同的差別，一個是有這樣的需求會需要做，我就是可以這樣子做。「需要」是因為被需要，我有時可以做的事情，不一定是由需求才來做，可能是我被授權，可以做的事。但是我需要做什麼事，因為有那樣的需求出現，我才會需要去做。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "想要做什麼？這個會差別比較大，這個完全是看個人對於什麼事情有興趣，所以才會變成想要做的事。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "也就是說「PO可以做什麼」的意思是，假設市府開始推動試辦PO制度，這個PO制度賦予在場的朋友們有什麼樣的執掌，這一些是制度賦予我可以做的事。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "但是「PO需要做」可能在制度內或是制度外，民眾聽到有「開放政府聯絡人」，然後民眾就提出很多的需求，而這些需求很有可能是一開始制度上沒有提到的，這個是變成PO需要額外處理的事。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "「PO想要做」是，我作為PO，我可能會很希望協助公部門跟民眾之間的溝通，或者是我是PO就希望準時下班之類的，是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "F", "speech": "我覺得PO是對內、對外溝通及負責彙整的角色。我需要做什麼的話，不管是對外彙整民眾的需求，對內就要找到需求不管是窗口，如果在自己公所可以解決的部分，那就找到那個窗口，如果不行的話，那當然就是陳報市府那邊可以解決，也就是起碼能夠找到民眾反映的問題，也就是他該有的出口。" }, { "speaker": "F", "speech": "最後，我會希望的是，如果民眾有提出來，我們可以事實反映，又或者是不管是對內、對外，如果可以提供大家滿意的話，如果可以解決的話，這個是最好的角色。" }, { "speaker": "F", "speech": "最後是希望問題可以解決，如果民眾有反映的問題，希望可以透過公部門的角色，若能解決的話，這個是我們身為公務員最希望看到的結果。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "現在時間在這個階段只剩下10分鐘，剛剛有一些講的內容有重複，比如很多同仁都提到需要彙整民眾的需求，然後帶回來機關討論，然後找到對的窗口，這個是大部分的人都有提到PO需要做什麼事。想要做的事是，希望建構暢通的管道、即時回應民眾的需求，有沒有除了這幾個論述外有不同的想法？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以大家認為剛剛講的這一些都同意，有沒有異議的內容？有沒有人覺得有不一樣的想法？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "確定沒有嗎？因為等一下就是要按照剛剛所說的東西去做下一步要做的程序，如果有其他的想法，現在就要提出。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果針對這幾個問題沒有超出其他同仁的想法，我就會接著問下一個問題：PO不想做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "因為我現在對PO這個概念還沒有很清楚，民眾反映的意見要馬上回應：" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一，讓PO能不能去處理這樣的工作，而且我覺得民眾反映意見進來，要當成政府一些決策的參考，一定要經過彙整、分析，就是他的意見進來要經過分類、分析，之後才去提供，而不是他今天提供意見進來我們就立即回應，如果立即回應的話，就有一點像PTT的感覺，所以PO的這個角色，其實是在瞭解民眾的意見，適時把它分析之後而提供給上面，並不是當有決策出來的時候，才回應民眾這一個問題，並不是馬上回應，我覺得如果是馬上回應就……" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這邊稍微總結一下，沒有辦法立即對民眾的意見作回應，這可能是PO不想或者是沒有辦法做到的內容。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有沒有其他的？如果沒有人舉手就傳麥克風。" }, { "speaker": "G", "speech": "PO最不想的事是：應該是不想當PO吧！因為我們畢竟是機關指定我過來，現在對於這一個部分也不是很瞭解，通常公務體系的部分，如果當PO的話，以字面上的意義，是開放政府聯絡人，聯絡人的意思是，介於中間的角色，在公部門有時常常會變成除了聯絡之外，可能還要承擔滿大一部分的資料蒐集、決策的責任，我目前的認知應該是這樣子，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我這邊釐清一下，不想當PO的原因，剛剛聽起來有三個，第一個是不知道在做什麼，所以不想做；第二個是因為介於中介的角色，所以可能有一點難做，這也是不想做的原因；第三個是要負決策的責任。這樣的理解是正確的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "G", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝，下一位。" }, { "speaker": "H", "speech": "其實PO的任務是要去協調民眾，對內是協調公部門的同仁做這一種事，就像剛剛講的，就是中介的角色，你身為一個中介的角色，你很難去滿足雙方意見的整合，我覺得這是最困難的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我稍微澄清一下，在這邊聽到大家講，大家想到PO第一件很容易會想到的是民意代表或者是在地的里長，也就是匯集了民眾的意見過來我這邊陳情，我幫他們解決的這個角色，包含上下溝通、找到對口再轉到上級單位來處理，其實各位很多的業務都在做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "還有很多人會覺得民眾是公家機關的代表，幫助民眾把民眾的意見融合進來，這樣是沒有錯，但是PDIS做的幾個協助案例的做法並不是把PO這樣用的，PO的功能是組織一個平台，而這個平台的重要性是把大部分的人，真的有問題的人跟公部門的人拉在一起在這一個過程中合作，民間就會知道公部門到底哪一個地方辛苦、問題是出在哪裡，到底困難點是在什麼地方，公部門透過這個方式，也可以發現有什麼民眾的訴求，其實有時就是需要存在感，透過這個方式，讓大家重視他，讓他們覺得有被重視了，可能需要的是這一些東西。所以在這一個過程中，大家在討論的時候，常常還是提到作為一個中介者跟轉譯的過程。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實我們也都知道，我相信各位一定有這個經驗，你打電話跟A講一件事，講完之後好像有一個共識，還要再跟B打電話，B又翻盤，然後再跟A重新溝通，在這個過程中，就會出現這一位先生提的，會變成裡外不是人，一下子要替他解決問題，又要替別人解決，是不是有一個平台讓A、B拉在一起見面，然後我們在中間維持一個角色，談出也許雙方不是那麼滿意、也許雙方都可以接受的解決方案。" }, { "speaker": "H", "speech": "是不是說明一下公聽會的不同？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我是NGO的人，我最早參加的是服貿，公聽會是大家講完很多問題，王郁琦只說了一句話，也就是「所有的意見我們都聽到了，謝謝大家」，在場大家很火爆、覺得很生氣，我們的協作會議角色幾乎可以說是完全不一樣的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "公聽會的狀況是A講一段話10分鐘、B講一段話10分鐘，但是他們講的東西不一樣，他說的危險跟我說的危險定義是不一樣的，但是大家都混在一起講，講完之後行政機關有時也不知道該怎麼回答，就是廣義上回答一些東西，接下來又問另外一個，他覺得你沒有聽懂，然後又再問了一次，這個東西是很難有對焦的，等一下會有一個討論的過程。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實桌長就會帶著大家，我們怎麼樣在這個過程中去適度理解，你的定義跟他的定義是不一樣的，我們今天討論的時候，聚焦在什麼地方，你是不是離題了，是不是可以回來，我們重新把這個問題釐清。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有的人需要好好把他的困境說出來的時候，請別人不要打斷他，我們會用這一種方式來想辦法促進大家的溝通，我必須說，有一些案例是如果雙方互信沒有達到的話，湊在一起是一個模式，所以背後的功夫有可能也是PO要做的，PO工作可能跟大家想像有一點不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有沒有人覺得不管怎麼樣，你還是想做的？我相信有一些事大家都想做，比如銷單之類的。" }, { "speaker": "G", "speech": "市府同仁對PO、開放政府聯絡人都很陌生，大家藉由這個教育訓練，有一個起頭，也就是有一個好的起頭。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "你覺得有什麼事情是不行的？或者是你覺得PO什麼樣的狀況不好？" }, { "speaker": "I", "speech": "現在是無法設想。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們直接分組。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "在這個階段大家拿起手機，然後把剛剛大家討論一輪，覺得內心有種種疑惑的問題，討論一輪之後，發現每一組有講到核心、滿重要的問題，所以如果覺得在小組內提出來的問題，沒有在討論中得到解答，可以麻煩大家拿起手機、上sli.do，裡面寫「1012」就可以上來發問。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "其實這個階段我們有提到，我們如果可以面對真正的問題，我們才會想下一步怎麼樣做比較好，因此這一個階段其實希望大家都可以把真正核心、內心覺得難以解決的問題，針對PO制度如何運行、PO角色是什麼的相關問題，都可以寫在這上面，最後都會讓唐鳳來為大家解答。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "是不是每一組的同仁都回到座位上了？如果有的話，總共有六組，每一組剛剛被派到的人講個2分鐘就好了，講到你覺得剛剛在討論過程中令你印象深刻、想跟大家分享的內容，大概用幾句話幫我們說明就好了，不用花太多的時間，沒有關係。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "徵求第一組的同仁。" }, { "speaker": "第一組代表", "speech": "各位夥伴大家好，第一小組主要是針對開放政府概念提出滿多問題，大家對於開放政府這一個概念在中央推行一段時間，在地方政府其實現在慢慢在推動，這個是最重要的一點，也就是大家對於這一個概念還不是很熟悉，因此第一時間會滿抗拒的，我覺得這個是我們提出來的問題。" }, { "speaker": "第一組代表", "speech": "引導後續的問題是，像我們小組的組員有提到一個問題，「Join」平台跟一般的市長信箱、縣市政府的信箱到底有什麼不同，也就是會不會有疊床架屋的問題？" }, { "speaker": "第一組代表", "speech": "第二個問題，其實我們現在有一些跨局處的會議，有必要再透過建立所謂開放政府的架構來處理所謂的政策擬訂的問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "第一組代表", "speech": "第三個問題，我們對於這個觀念，是中央慢慢想要向下紮根，像今天在座有一些是區公所的同仁，就我們的認知是，這可能是中央層級才能處理的事情，但是就縣市區公所，我們扮演的角色就是小小的螺絲釘，可能沒有辦法做這麼大的工作，因此這個是我們提出的一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "第一組代表", "speech": "第四個問題，「Join」平台是大家可以發言的平台、也是開放的，身為PO其實要釐清一些訊息，這也是我們擔心進來的訊息到底是不是真正問題，或者只是迎合族群來解決，所以以上總結四個問題。" }, { "speaker": "第一組代表", "speech": "因為時間比較短，如果時間長一點，我們可以凝聚一些比較具體的共識，剛剛進行的過程，主要是提出這一些觀念、想法及問題，希望可以在接下來的議程當中，可以得到一些解答，讓我們對開放政府的觀念可以有更明確、更詳細一點的概念，以上。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們歡迎一下第二組的同仁。" }, { "speaker": "第二組代表", "speech": "大家好，其實從一開始討論，我們就一直在討論PO的定位到底是什麼，想要找到各方的利害關係人、想要做出final的決定，剛剛討論本來有三方的關係人，以前的做法是私底下打電話給三方的人，現在是要以透明的方式來處理。" }, { "speaker": "第二組代表", "speech": "可是我想到的是，這樣會不會給予PO太大的責任？因為像我們知道艋舺，你在廟口要喬事情是需要具有一定的份量。可能PO定位的問題（要瞭解），大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我補充一下，我們那一組其實還有提到台南市還有一些分工協調的機制，已經有這個機制為何還要有PO？有人提到PO是不是不應該代表任何立場、只是記錄的角色？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然也有更多的問題是，包含開放政府到底是要做什麼？教育訓練是不是應該要從首長開始，不然是推不動的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "政委、主委及各位市府的前輩、長官大家午安，第三組的部分，我先承認，就我個人來講的話，今天被指派來，心態非常negative，所以開始報告的時候，完全聽不懂，因為沒有辦法把訊息接收進來。後來討論的時候，又很疑惑，覺得這比公訓中心的課更有挑戰，因為還要有挑戰句，完全不知道挑戰句要呈現什麼，因為是跳出我們習慣領域的框架當中，因為舒適圈待很久，所以腦筋不動是很正常的，請兩位長官體諒。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "我們跟第一組一樣，現在當研考，每一天跟人家要資料，都被人家罵得要死，現在要叫我當PO，不只是自己增加工作，主委坐在這裡，我要講場面話，鼻子摸著就算了，現在催資料已經催得很痛苦了，再加這個可能會被打死，所以以後秘書室研考可能都走光了，這個是我們的第一個疑問。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "剛剛第一組也有講到，我們現在有這一些管道，包括秘書長也有跨局處的協調會議，遇到登隔熱又有登隔熱的專案會議，可能淹水的時候，又有防災的專案會議，到底這一些跟日常的柴、米、油、鹽、醬、醋、茶要怎麼區別。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "因為之前來的時候，早上有小小用功看一下平台，之前有被指派說除了市政府自己的提案要拋出去就怕得要死，現在又有市民的提案要進來，如果遇到剛剛同組的人講得比較草根性一點，也就是遇到很盧的人要怎麼收斂？這個是我們很擔心的，尤其是PO，像我剛剛已經先講了，那時送資料很困難了，遇到很盧的人，我們被業務單位罵死了，可能就從此跟你結仇了，這個是大家心理共同的害怕。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "再來，我們剛剛在討論的時候，我本來想要閉嘴不講話的，可我忍不住多嘴了，我就問了一些問題，所以我現在站在這裡跟大家報告，這個是我們剛剛的疑問，他說太多的人，發現問題的人，可能到時候就要去解決，我犯了一個最嚴重的錯誤，所以我現在只好厚著臉皮，當著長官的面。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "自己的柴、米、油、鹽、醬、醋、茶都做不完了，你叫我發現問題，像剛剛輔導員說放心，當時大家會開會，我心理的OS是就像現在這樣子，沒有什麼人要講話，看你自己要怎麼表演下去，他剛剛有講了一下在操作的過程中，有被PO A、B罵，所以我會覺得他也知道我們的痛苦，我們沒有講話他應該要偷笑，我們如果說話他就死了，這個是我們第二個。" }, { "speaker": "第三組代表", "speech": "再來，剛剛講不重複，我們想要一個請求，看能不能精簡一下，然後在同等負擔增加的情況之下，先有運作機制，看如何調整，這個是我們非常、非常、非常重要的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "第四組代表", "speech": "政委、台南市府長官大家好，第四組其實討論得非常熱烈，其實我覺得三十分鐘真的非常不夠，我們聽了非常多。" }, { "speaker": "第四組代表", "speech": "橘色跟粉紅色盤點出來的問題與需求是在這一行，這個部分我請第四組的同仁跟我們分享。" }, { "speaker": "第四組代表", "speech": "看起來很多，不過稍微有一點收斂，前三組都有講過了。我們的組員當中有提到，他們的層級一定要能夠拉高，希望到首長或者是副首長，又或者是主秘之類的。" }, { "speaker": "第四組代表", "speech": "針對定義的部分不那麼瞭解，希望可以明確定義，如果是專職的話，那會做得比較好。如果是專職的話，是不是有一些可以讓組織擴編，也就是運作比較順暢一些，這個是基本能力而已。" }, { "speaker": "第四組代表", "speech": "以上的部分大概是我們這一組提出來的問題。" }, { "speaker": "第五組代表", "speech": "我們這一組比較有趣的是，一開始我花了比較多的時間在解釋中央政府是怎麼運作的，所以大家都針對中央政府的運作方式提出了不少的質疑，比如南市府如何找出協作會議的主持人與參與者，一個議題如何選出來的，這一些選議題的過程中，可能會有正反雙方及不理性，這一些意見領袖躲在背後如何找出來？" }, { "speaker": "第五組代表", "speech": "再來是大家關心的是權責不明，因為各單位的PO狀況好像不太一樣，PO有沒有權責可以把這一些人找齊並一起開會。" }, { "speaker": "第五組代表", "speech": "大家也關心設備的問題，也就是南市府現有的設備有沒有足夠能夠辦一場協作會議？" }, { "speaker": "第五組代表", "speech": "後來我們試著把剩餘的時間生挑戰句，挑戰句生完的結果這樣子的，我們關心的是作為PO或者是市府同仁，如何可以在網路上參與公共議題的討論，而且在正反雙方在意見很多的情況之下，是公平地討論，不要說只有其中一方的意見特別大聲。" }, { "speaker": "第五組代表", "speech": "而且強調是在地方政府的權責之下，因為很多東西其實是中央的法規、權責，所以他希望在地方角色能夠發揮的情況之下可以作以上的統整，以上。" }, { "speaker": "第六組代表", "speech": "各位長官大家好，接下來是第六組在這邊的報告，第三組跟第四組先進，剛剛在會議上講太多話，我們這一組都沒有人要上來。" }, { "speaker": "第六組代表", "speech": "我在這邊講一下，其實台南市政府以開放政府的觀念開始來執行這個政策，我相信在賴院長第二屆當選市長，發生議會議長的狀況時，其實賴院長當時就以開放政府執政方式（處理），就是以1999或者是市長信箱、首長信箱把所有的資訊，只要民眾提出問題，就是把它開放在網路的資訊上，所以台南市政府其實四年前就已經在推開放政府的政策了，但因為今天講的是PO，而我對PO其實有很大的疑問。" }, { "speaker": "第六組代表", "speech": "我們這一組討論的東西也不少，但是反映出來好像很少，我們大概歸納一下，其實PO的權利跟義務到底是什麼？PO的層級有說一定要到達什麼樣的層級嗎？在座可能有一些是10職等以上的層級，有些是屬於8職等或者是9職等，我不知道到什麼地步。" }, { "speaker": "第六組代表", "speech": "接著，PO要發覺問題，我們剛剛一直在討論，像我們以公務人員來講的話，其實我們有考試及格，也有專才的本科，我們本身的專業是侷限在某個部分，但是PO這樣子聽起來的話，是要有一個類似通才的狀況，所以感覺到壓力很大。" }, { "speaker": "第六組代表", "speech": "最後，依照開放政府的話，我在想的是，推動這個政策就是要瞭解民眾在想什麼，又或者是民眾需要的是什麼，也就是政府這邊是不是可以直接不透過議員或者是立法委員，就是把民眾的需求跟想要的直接呈現出來，但這真的有一些難度，我們會不會搶了立法委員或者是議員的工作？不能沒有他們，只是他們就可以更輕鬆了，以上簡單回應，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝六組的報告，剛剛大家的提問都有同時打在sli.do上，我們會一一為大家解答。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "市長今天工作非常地繁忙，其實我們早上才見面，報告了一下台南市研考會的成果，所以也講了一下開放政府。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "剛才政委剛到的時候，也分享了一下台南市政府在做的一些事，政委之前還沒有進入政府部門的時候，也已經聽過台南市政府非常厲害公民論壇的飛雁新村的例子，她也把我們這個例子帶到法國的「思考之夜」跟全世界的人分享。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "我們比市長早到一點，所以有聽到大家的抱怨，就是為什麼要做這一些PO制度，一天到晚增加我們的工作，但其實這是一個世界性的潮流，像我剛剛跟市長報告，有一些技術人員、行政工作人員，但是我們中間沒有一個傳遞的方式，而開放政府要怎麼做，也許有技術人員、行政人員大家可以一起有一個共同的平台，把自己的工作問題提出，就同政委提到的，我們把民主的這一件事當作是一個遊戲，每個人都盡自己一份責任去努力完成這個遊戲，我們就不太需要太多抗拒的負擔。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "在政府部門裡面革新的思考方式，開放政府門打開就不會再走回頭路，這個是研考會希望努力完成的。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "在院長第二任上任的時候，其實開放政府是四大主軸之一，加上智慧城市，因此研考會就佔了兩個主軸，我們今天非常高興唐政委可以來傳授武功心法，加上今天早上公布研考會的秘密武器，我跟市長開玩笑說這一些不用自宮，必能成功，歡迎大家抱持很開放的心情。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "這一種制度也許不是一次的學習，大家就可以理解或者是萬分投入，如果是這樣的話，應該是很苦汗的，如果大家有抱怨，這才是真實的，我們希望用真實的聲音來交流，讓這一些種子，及希望往下走的氣氛跟養分，能夠在文官體制裡面去作建議，這個常態化才可以讓開放政府走得更平坦、順利，市長比較慢到，我們把前面發生的事情跟市長報告一下，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "政委、趙主委、主秘，及研考會各位主管、同仁，我想在座很多都是市府主管、科長以上，我們稱為「開放政府聯絡人」現在在推這樣的制度，大家午安，大家好！" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "感謝趙主委先幫我開場，我還沒有坐定，還沒有搞清楚東西南北就上來講話，怕講錯話。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "確實，我們早上才跟研考會一起，針對過去八年研考如何引入新科技、如何引入開放政府決策、行政革新、政府資料開放來作一些成果發表，其實這幾年對這方面有很多的投入。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "我記得剛來台南市的時候，應該是第三年左右，開放政府這樣的觀念開始逐漸被引入，當時我跟大家一樣，就是覺得很忙，預算執行就已經很困難，執行到年底，通常執行率都不好，如果再加上「參與式預算」，再來討論，可能到年底都還沒有辦法發包。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "尤其剛開始我是做水利方面的設計、建設，覺得這說給民眾聽，民眾也聽不懂，會擔心開放政府讓民眾參與，有一些東西是專業領域，到底做不做得到，所以那時對於研考會在推開放政府，其實是有一點排斥、抗拒的。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "不過我覺得這幾年，其實開放政府是解決很多非常好的方式並凝聚共識，我想開放政府有三大領域，其中前面兩個是開放資料、開放服務，我想這一個部分在推都沒有問題，包含資料開放，也就是三千多筆的資料如何讓民眾可以取得，而且最重要的是，引入民間的創意，利用這一些開放資料來做加值的設計。過去我們在處理登隔熱時，我想這也陸續有看到這一個成果。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "在國外也有很多案例，像有些城市以刑案、搶案發生的比例所集中的區位，民眾可以分析出政府巡邏，又或者是政府應該要怎麼樣再強化，透過這一些大數據，民間可以再作一些加值型的運用。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "我想我們研考會這幾年推「開放服務」推得很扎實，包括OPEN 1999 API，還有多元性反映、對於市政可以反映，又包括臉書也有很多的反映，我都要忍住，因為我知道如果去回，會越來越多人發現市長都有在看，因此我的幕僚同仁要我忍耐，不然以後會回不完，我想這個也是跟民間溝通的管道。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "開放政府到一個階段是開放決策，開放決策是最困難的，而且公務員常常覺得被要求須要有效率，而且預算要有執行率，如果預算的支出或者是對一個事情的推動，連一條道路要如何設計都要民眾來參與，可能年底的執行率都會是零，都會被審計單位檢討。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "二十年前在荷蘭唸書的時候，有一次我個人去參訪他們的工務局（Public Work），我想說為何鹿特丹在二次大戰之後，自行車的使用率從只有6％成長到70％，他們如何做自行車道及交通規劃。結果他們跟我說他們每一條路的設計都要花三年，跟各個利害關係人討論這一條路如何配置，也就是路跟路中間是只有20米，這20米的空間，要多少給車走、人走、腳踏車走，多少放綠化、家俱等，都要跟這一些民眾談。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "一開始是規劃設計，所以沒有執行的壓力，一條路要談三年，談到各方都有共識，因此整個鹿特丹有六個火車站為中心點，每一條路的規劃都是經過大家充分地討論，每一條路做好之後就可以用一、二十年，包括自行車、人行道及停車空間，通常車道犧牲稍微小一點，因為這是大家都接受的狀況，所以他們可以在戰後三十年，自行車的使用率從6％成長到將近70％，我想這是開放政府、開放決策很典型的典範。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "像敦化南北的自行車道，馬總統上任就有一個振興經濟方案，不然就擴大內需，越擴越虛，錢撥下來到你要花完，花完不是只有設計完、發包，那個是「花」，而不是「發」，從核下來到執行完畢只有一年，所以台北市交通局核下來之後就後悔了，就推給公路局，交通局跟公路局常常這樣。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "公路局沒有時間委外設計，因為有壓力，就自己設計，腳踏車道很好畫，只有兩條線，因此是1億元，做完以後才發現是災難的開始，所以就開始抗議、抗爭，因為小朋友要搭公車，沒有辦法，要跟自行車在那邊閃，車子也沒有辦法停，因此就到處抗議，最後經過一、兩年，再偷偷處理掉，這就是沒有充分地開放決策結果，因此就沒有做。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "我想開放政府、開放決策確實是可以解決很多事，也就是錢可以花在刀口上，預算的方式是先編設計費、規劃費，大家可以有很多案子是經過充分地討論，我覺得開放決策也是另外解決爭議性問題的好方法。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "我早期有提這個案例，像韓國的文在寅總統，他的政見是廢核，我們有核四，他們有核五、六，他們是要停建核五、六，結果他上任之後，兩造攻防很厲害，兩造經過民意調查，聽說都是40％多，贊成跟反對都在誤差範圍內，因此文在寅總統就很痛苦，他支持興建核電廠，就會說這是他的政見，如果不支持興建核電廠，就會說總統不重視經濟，因此大廠要出走，就說他是不是跳票。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "他們就用開放決策的方式，他們組了三百人還是五百人的專家團體，也就是各種領域，可能有一個領域是家庭組、有一個領域是廠商代表、有一個領域是環保模式，每一個領域都接受開放報名，大家可以自由報名，因此從報名的人數裡面去抽籤，像總共有二十個領域，各抽十五個人，因此就關在飯店裡面，有課程、辯論、討論，經過充分地討論之後，最後這三百個人投票，經過充分辯論之後來決定，然後最後遞交一份結果、成果書或者是陳情書給總統，作為總統後面決策的依據。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "據瞭解最後投票的結果是六比四，這一些專家經過充分討論，還沒有廢核的條件，因此同意60％是續建的，這也讓文在寅總統可能會跳票的政見承諾得到解套，也讓社會紛爭的議題可以得到解決方式，這個是還不錯的開放決策。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "像將來鐵路地下化，如果當時走這個決策，有聲音的人會更少。我們包括未來的捷運、綠線等都有很多爭議、不同的意見，又或是藍色公路要不要牽也有很多的意見，很多敏感的議題都可以透過開放政府、開放決策來達到共識，讓各界聽到不同的聲音，在政府施政上得到更多的建議。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "我們要推動開放政府聯絡人，我想這樣的觀念是世界潮流，也是很好解決問題的方式，希望大家可以不厭其煩試著敞開心胸接受新的做法，非常感佩研考會率全國地方之先，仿照中央推動開放政府聯絡人，因為有大家的參與，大家是各局處的種子球員，就像採購法的種子教官，大家可以把新的觀念傳播出去並推廣，讓各項施政有更多民眾來參與，得到市民支持。" }, { "speaker": "李孟諺", "speech": "充分討論之後，會有更多的實踐，祝福今天的會議順利成功，也謝謝政委來指導我們，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "唐政委好，雖然我們剛剛聊了一下，因為市長還可以多坐5分鐘，我要趕快把握時間跟他講一下推動的情況。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "「州官百姓到夥伴關係」，以前的長官都高高在上，但是我們希望將來跟這一些市民或者是公民都可以在同一個平台討論公共事務，所有在政府工作的人，不一定比公民來得更充分理解某一些事，尤其對他實務相關的事，我相信現在很多公民，我們常常說「藏富於民」，也是將來的一些觀念，所以我大概從這個地方開始來講。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "我們過去常常聽到現在台中蕭景燈顧問所提到，我們以為可以提供給公民或者是社會的民主制度都存在這個販賣機裡面，因此我們去投幣就發現有想要的東西出來，結果後來發現我們要的東西不在這個販賣機裡面，我們就去搖晃它，希望可以掉出我們心裡想要的東西，但是搖來搖去都還是掉不出來我們想要的，因此就會發生一些用力搖晃販賣機之後的後果，這個是唐政委曾經參加過的一個大型運動（太陽花學運），而這個運動也帶來了臺灣巨大的變化，也就是後來在講開放政府或是有關學運之後，政府部門心態上或是制度上改變一個非常重要的運動。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "所以我們希望這一個開放政府本身是「透明開放」。這個所謂「透明」，不只是把資訊公開，我們應該把我們的資料可以做欄位的分析並公開，包含政委所希望的，希望能夠欄位或者是所做的平台開放API出去，讓串接可以更為方便、便利，不用從0到1，而是從1往前走，這部分可以省略掉很多的工作。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "最重要剛剛市長也有提到，開放政府最重要的是從對話到溝通，我們過去是不聽人家講，常常看到民意代表、議會、立法院打架，臺灣人打架是不輸人的，因此在立法院裡面會有打架的情況。我們會遇到的情況不是你輸、就是我贏，因此這個絕對值沒有對話的空間，因此我們希望將來可以藉由開放政府制度與這一些推廣，能夠讓大家聽到對方在說什麼，這個是很重要的，不是聽到自己在說什麼，而是聽到大家說什麼，我們應該聽他講什麼，大家坐下來彼此去對話與溝通。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "最重要的是，在2012年張善政政委當時是科技政委，他的身分很特殊，他也是無黨籍的，提出了「政府資料開放推動策略」。當初提到占領運動的訴求，是對政府所提供的這一些販賣機不夠所造成的大型運動，所以後來接任的毛治國院長宣示Open Data做深化運用的元年。台南市政府把開放政府列入施政本質的其中一項，也就是2015年即院長第二任的時候，我們把這部分當成是台南市政府很重要的本質。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "院長常常講什麼是「施政本質」，就是你這個人的個性是長什麼樣子，我們的個性就是「開放政府」，所以大家進到這個政府部門裡面，就要很理解台南市政府是對外開放，是本質於透明開放。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "我們也在同一年做了資料開放平台，政委也知道2015年6月這一個案件，當時有拜託呂家華當這個計畫的主持人，在飛雁新村裡面的這個case，我們有好幾個利益相關人，都沒有辦法坐下來談，里長、民意代表、遠雄也抗爭，他獲得的土地並不能興建，大家抗爭來、抗爭去，沒有辦法有一個方式去解決，因此我們做了開放的決策，也是現在國發會副主委曾旭政在擔任副市長的時候，幫我們主持這一次飛雁新村的開放。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "著力最深的是都發局、交通局、工務局，包含了老樹、交通的衝擊等等都被規劃在裡面，當時培力一百多位的公務員，加入這一場公民的開放決策。當然（現在的簡報是）其他比較細項的部分。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "在2017年的時候，我們開始希望把開放政府數位治理的種子跟氣氛帶入政府當中，所以我們也跟成大合作了「培養數據新視野、翻轉城市競爭力」，這個是人事處安排的。人事處跟學術單位來培力，把大數據的資料跟成功大學合作，我們發展了很多「數據看台南」或者是其他的工作項目，像王專委推動的「Open 1999」也得到政府服務獎。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "最主要的原則，剛剛市長也有提到我們是從開放資料、開放服務、開放決策，作為開放政府的三大主軸。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "我們當初在推開放政府的現況，也是我們現在在開放政府上線之後的平台——今天也上線了——將來要做到的是，有很多交通局的同事有提到的，為什麼要做那麼多的事情？不只是市政府的提案，以後也要接民眾的提案，事情做不完，千萬不要太害怕，因為我覺得會有一定的門檻、溝通的方式，去進行完之後再來處理這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "他有一個重要的概念，我們可能及早拆除一個可能引爆社會事件的衝突，我們在這一個過程中，經過溝通跟對話，我們可以把一個可能引爆點先拆除、引信先拆除，大家可以繼續先做這一件事，將這一個工作、政策調整，反而可以達到大家都可以接受的方式。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "這是我剛剛也有跟政委報告的，我們有培訓的公務員，在兩場的公民論壇當中，我們培力了一百零八位公務員及三十三位公民，其中公務員的部分，這也是大家引以為傲的，其實我們在台南市政府應該要感到非常驕傲，公務員的年齡層是三十五歲以下投入在公民論壇的這一件事，大概是五成，大家都是菁英，而且年輕的公務員非常熱情，希望這一股熱情可以繼續地延燒下去，因為我們是政務官，我們隨時會離開，希望可以變成一個制度與常態，大家面臨很多爭議事端的時候，可以有另外一個方式來解決。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "之前在開放文化基金會裡面所做的報告，把飛雁新村裡面所涉及到利益相關的部分也有作說明，我們在開放文化基金會當中也獲得了一些好評，也就是在這幾個面向當中做了充分的溝通。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "剛剛有提到的是開放政府聯絡人的部分，應該是屬於轉譯、傳譯的功能，我記得政委曾經提到：「未來的開放政府跟未來的世界當中，懂新聞、懂資訊，還有一個是我忘記了，也就是三項合一，可以作為將來重要的政府部門、協調組織的人。」我相信各位都有這個能力，我們也許資訊並不是那麼懂，但我們知道問題在哪裡，這就是政府存在的意義。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "我們怎麼樣轉譯這一些政策，讓民眾更可以理解，甚至可以把這個對立降到最低，這是最主要的工作。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "我們剛剛有提到的是，中央政府開放政府聯絡人的月會，當然由政委來主持，台南市政府是第一個仿照中央建置，由研考會主委主持，各局處有兩位專責人員。我們希望開放政府的理念可以內化的公務事項當中，不必然今天、明天醒過來就會這樣，那不可能，是經過一些折衝跟理念的溝通，尤其今天大家回去的時候，可能還是一頭霧水，但這都沒有問題，因為會慢慢變成在日常工作上的一環，有一點像我們所說研考要填很多的報表一樣，我們常常在想說研考單位填那麼多要幹麻，不能只填一張嗎？我也常常在想這一件事，也許可以透過其他科技的方式、導入來解決。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "這是我們剛剛所提到市府提案、市民提案的部分，這也是仿照公共政策論壇的參與平台，我們介接到台南市政府的平台當中。超過附議人的部分，我們就會收斂，機關的人來，幫他做一些執行計畫的協助工作，大家不要擔心，並不是我們要幫每一個市民來提案，你就要幫他做一個計畫，你會做不完，比服務處的主任還要累，並不是這樣的意思，我們會有一個門檻。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "將來也是仿照中央，這個是由政委主持，我們會把收斂完的研考會主委或研考會的同仁，再報告到市長會議彙整，通過市長會議之後，大家才會去執行，大概是這樣的方式。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "也希望可以達到跨局處的議題，讓大家可以接受這樣子的方式，然後去顧及比較多的利益關係人，當然也希望PO能夠提升政府的公信力跟大家互相相信對方、減少局處的本位主義，把問題丟出來，讓大家願意共同討論的信任度。當然，最重要的是文官的專業價值，因為每一個部門都有專業的價值，文化局有文化局專業的價值，交通局也有交通局專業的價值，但是這個案子要推動、有發生衝突的時候，希望有一個平台可以讓大家來對話。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "開放市民參與政策制定，也可以建立政府與民間信任的關係，並提升公民的素養。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "這是我們在開放決策時的合影向各位分享，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "趙卿惠", "speech": "剛剛任何的抱怨都非常好，我們是人，一定會有反映的，要加工作，心裡一定會有很多想法，還是非常感謝政委，今天特別總質詢請假，對我們來說是非常大的鼓勵，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "大家午安，接下來我針對「從選民到公民」之台南市政府推動的施政提案作說明。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "我們要提供多元的公民參與管道，事實上在104年、105年，有針對飛雁新村及新市政中心來作一些公民論壇，以及願景工作坊實體會議。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "之後也有在網路上，把中間所產生的一些信息即時公布到我們的網站平台上，當然這個網站的平台功能還是有限，也有少部分與公民討論互動的機制，但是後來針對國發會的「Join」平台來做合作，基於資源共享，我們利用國發會的平台來作介接，當然也導入市府的機制，因為有一些是因地制宜，我們也做了一些與公民的結合。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "目前已經有設置市政提案的專區，市政提案包括兩個部分：一個是市府提案，這個對應到「Join」平台的「眾開講」；右邊是市民提案，是由公民所發動的，對應到「提點子」的功能。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "我們如何在政策形成及規劃之前，如何提出這樣的議題？並給公民作雙向互動的討論呢？我們是有市府提案的機制。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "在這個議題要形成之前，當然我們要考量到一些重大政策或是社會關注的議題。這個議題要拋出之前，當然我們要作一些思考，能夠可以去作收斂，避免這一個議題一放出去的話，到時會很難收斂。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "我們在今年3月也有辦所謂的工作坊，主要的目的是要協助各局處來作這一些議題的釐清或者是聚焦，等於是收斂，有一點像剛才所謂協作會議一樣。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "除了政策規劃之外，議題上網之後，這個議題也要附上一些參考資料。這一些資料的公開包括：這個議題政策的影響評估，或者懶人包，以輔佐公民可以很快地吸收資料。特別是懶人包的部分，現在市府也有用一些視覺化的軟體，我們也跟各局處作一些教育訓練，目的就是要讓各局處都可以學習如何用更視覺化的工具來製作政策的行銷與宣導，讓大家可以更容易接觸到訊息及吸收訊息。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "進到市民討論的部分，當然包含投票區跟討論區，我們在這一個過程中，民眾也要隨時聚焦討論，避免離題太遠了，機關也要作簡要地事實回應，原則上是九十天，原則上十日之內要綜整回應，除了平時蒐集的一些資料，最後也要做一些綜整的回應，然後把參採情形及後續要推動的措施，透過各種方式或者是其他方式來做。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "國發會平台做提案的實例，有關於政策規劃及上網的畫面會長這樣子，主要有一些主辦單位，像時間、截止日期，可以看得出來是民眾的討論，這邊也會設所謂版主來適時回應。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "PO可能也要擔任這樣的角色，看各機關如何分配這個工作，但是這個回應的責任也是非常重要。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "機關回應的部分，我們在十天之內也要做綜整的回應，畫面可以再做說明，像市民想什麼、要什麼，我們可以透過市民提案來知道民眾的需求在哪裡，這個機制也是分這四個部分。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "提案者可以選擇一個權責機關，目前的是以三個為限。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "在檢核的部分，也就是平台管理機關來檢核，也就是負責提案的內容跟範圍，可以利用公共政策網路實施的要點來作檢核，檢核通過之後就進入到市民的附議，市民附議的資格，國發會的平台所針對國民，主要的檢核機制是手機跟簡訊，比較沒有針對市民。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "台南市這邊目前有一個機制，因為現在戶政系統還沒有辦法開放即時資料出來介接，因此會每兩個禮拜更新一次戶政系統，將來主要輸入身分證字號就可以透過這個主機勾稽，這個是要訓練市民來作附議的資格。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "我們知道台南市的PO，大家會很擔心將來工作負擔會不會太重，所以我們考量到在檢核時，系統是3日，然後我們稍微放寬到5日，希望不會造成大家太大的壓力跟工作的負擔。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "有關於附議的部分是60日，國發會的平台是五千人，如果門檻訂得太高，會說沒有誠意，也就是會刷下來，門檻太低就會擔心府內PO的工作有一些負荷，因此我訂台南市民是一千八百人來當門檻，而這個門檻與這一些機制都會做滾動式的檢討。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "機關回應的部分是10日之內要確認權責機關，接著是60日內要回應，包含包括聯繫提案者，最主要是要釐清提案人的提案內容。研商會議是有一些議題，需要專家或者是利害關係人必須要來作跨域的討論與協作，然後產生更好的回應方式，因此我們會有研商會議。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "紀錄完整公開，這部分剛剛市長也有提到，透過徵詢這個提案人的同意，有時透過共識，大家就可以少掉一些爭議，也少掉一些紛爭，往往這個效率會更高。我們要透過新聞稿或者是記者會公眾周知。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "有關於實例的部分，我們簡單跳過，大家可以看到「Join」平台來檢視。有關於機關回應的部分，機關最後決定要不要參採，好比像不參採就要回應不參採，又或者是同意參採或者是部分同意參採，也就是納入研議的回應方式。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "這一段時間推動的期程，（簡報第13頁），我們在今年8月31日有請國發會來當講師，辦理所謂平台管理者的操作說明，對象最主要是輔助聯絡人系統操作面的說明會，今天上午記者會裡面，我們研考會也宣布開放政府入口網正式上線，我們今天下午也辦了PO的、施政參與機制的教育訓練，因為目前在選舉，所以這個系統目前並沒有運作，我們預計大概上半年的時候，會開始針對我們府內的一級機關及各局處來作推動。" }, { "speaker": "林怡壯", "speech": "我們的PO對象都是科長以上的層級，我們希望行政院、各部會的PO先進可以來指導，我們希望可推得更順利，以上做這樣的簡單說明，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "按照表定時間的話，我現在剩5分20秒。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為sli.do上已經五十個問題了，所以意思是我每個問題七秒鐘要回答完，不對，應該是六秒鐘回答完，這大概是不可能的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們先講一下時間結構。我今天是跟立法院請假來的，所以今天本來就沒有別的公務要做，我打算把問題全部回完才回去台北，這個是第一個；第二，如果大家之後還有要公要忙、家裡有事情要照顧的話，大家到了五點之後請隨時離席，我不會當作是不禮貌，這個包含辦公室PDIS的成員在內，或者是國發會，或者是財政部開放政府聯絡人，如果有人要趕高鐵的話，五點到就隨時歡迎離開這個房間，這要先講在前面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，我如果講到中間，大家要追問的話，都可以繼續在sli.do上繼續追問，我說「把問題回答完才走」的意思是大家沒有問題我再走。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上次在行政院其實也有類似這樣子情況的時候，就是一直加了快要一個小時，我們就看實際的狀況。有一次媒體工作者沈春華來院裡直播，然後就說讓網友問到飽，那一天問到半夜十一點多，所以說到做到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們直接進入「開放決策」：其實大家看到我們用sli.do的工具，其實是開放決策的示範，為什麼？因為大家舉手的時候，可能講的時候，會覺得是不是只有我這麼強力覺得，這樣一下子就發現有十二個人發現首長參加教育訓練，PO制度才可以推動，所以第一個是你不會覺得孤單，第二個是反正匿名，大家都在滑手機，沒有人知道這個是你的意見，因此提出這個想法的時候，這個跟大家的情緒、感受有多契合的這一件事，可以在先行者，不需要當前浪的情況下就可以達成，所以無形之中是讓提出意見風險降低。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們自己在行政院的時候，一開始推動開放政府聯絡人的時候，也請曾副主委、通傳會詹主委、花次長等等，他們在民間社會的時候，其實也都是推動開放決策的人，我們是一次對所有的部會，也就是主秘或者是次長的層級先洗過腦，然後再開始推開放政府聯絡人的示範。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家的運氣很好，因為現在在選舉，反正也不太可能有什麼連署案，因此在接下來的一段時間裡面，我確實會很推薦更多一點這種經驗的分享、具體的分享，也讓局處的首長更知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前實際在運作這個機制是中央跟台北市。目前台北市還沒有這一種的PO制度，接續連署的是i-Voting。確實我覺得值得花更多一點時間深化，首長的教育訓練，大家都可以知道開放決策在做什麼，對大家不會有不合理期待時，這樣的PO制度才可以推動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們從各部會的洗腦大會，到第一個實際上的連署接進來，然後我們開始處理，我記得那個時候是國旅卡那一案，然後就開始處理的這一個過程，中間還隔了農曆年，其實我經過是三個月左右的培訓、討論、共識營等等，然後才開始真的接案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "然後正式對外討論，好像又是公務人員組工會，我們一開始接案都是跟公務員有關係，好比像特休半天請跟以小時請，我們選案是由各中央部會的PO投票，所以每一次關於公務人員福利的案子，幾乎全部通過，這個時候人總就有依據跟考試院說，假應該要以小時請，然後銓敘部才可以跟考試院爭取，現在爭取到了，然後正在會銜，在賴院長的桌上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們一開始接的案子，基本上都是跟我們自己切身相關的，大家下班之後也是台南市民，也有帳號、可以自己去提案，所以這一件事要留兩個方向：一個是各局處首長不要有不合理的期待，這個可以透過具體的範例來解決；第二個是可以透過大家一開始的提案，就是跟自己切身相關的提案來處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「join平台和市長信箱...等等許多管道，是否有疊床架屋的情形，怎麼辦？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實公共政策網路參與平台，除了剛剛提到的「提點子」跟「眾開講」之外，還有一個叫做「來監督」，這可能知道的人比較少，我們當初推的時候，遇到各部會PO是非常大的阻力，為什麼是這樣？這是2012年零時政府的第一個案子，是預算視覺化，一次把中央政府總預算，所有的部會裡面、所有一千三百六十八個方案、中長程的一年以上計畫全部公開。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，本來只有審計、管考、政風、主計在進行管考，現在是兩千三百萬人在進行管考，大家的情緒馬上就起來了，現在這麼多人管考還不夠，還要再多兩千三百萬人來管考。但是因為後來各部會PO的反彈，國發會就做了一個決定，先從院管考的專案，然後只有六十幾案開始，我們先做試辦，證明給大家看，這樣是讓大家加班、晚一點下班，或是大家可以早一點下班，到底疊床架屋的這一些屋子，要垮的屋子搬過去，或者是兩邊都要做，我通常都是舉這樣的例子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我直接從GPMnet，就是從研考系統直接對接，並沒有手動登打的情況，大家平常被國發會管考處如何管考，這一些完全一樣的東西都放在上面，所以我們對於當時院管考的計畫，可以看到計畫摘要，每季累積預算執行率等等，所有的東西都公開在上面，像招了什麼標等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接著是我們累計預算達成率，大家都是公務員，應該知道累計不可能閃掉才對，但累計就是往下掉了，這是九年的計畫，到第九年的累計往下掉。有一個網友的留言是這樣子，雖然拼字不是很規範，他說「圖4不4有錯」，但是大家都知道他要問什麼，也就是為什麼預算執行率可以往下掉，這一位就說「廠商施工進度嚴重落後，書面通知未有成效，終止契約重新發包，把錢還給我們」，然後我們之後再去做，所以才會有往下掉的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個到底算不算疊床架屋？至少我從承辦人那邊聽到的意見是，在此之前只能一個個解釋問題，也就是每一個院長信箱寫過來、每一個金門縣的議員質詢、每一次立委要索資、每一次審計部要來審計的時候，同樣的東西再給一遍，他打電話來的時候，同樣的稿子又要再唸一遍，每一個人都不知道前面已經三十九個人問過一樣的事情，還會打第四十通的電話過來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是現在他就比較高興，為什麼？因為Google就找得到這個，他大概不一定會打電話來；第二，即使來索資，這個網址就給他，如果有額外的問題，歡迎在上面提出詢問，這樣慢慢就累積成一個大家對於目前金門大橋現況比較清楚的情況，並不是院長信箱這一些東西就消失了，而是在回他的時候，你不用簽到三層。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在行政院這邊是說如果已經在行政院公開的事實，已經有一個固定的網址，政府資訊公開法，你貼這個網址去，每個部會不一樣，有的是馬上決行、有的要簽一層決行，但無論如何比本來的好，所以這個時候其實時間的成本是可以降低的。所以在經過一年的試辦之後，各部會的PO終於解除了戒心，所以目前一千三百多項計畫是全部可以在上面進行討論的，這個預算視覺化其實是我們後面「提點子」跟「眾開講」的基礎，如果大家不知道目前實際情況怎麼樣的話，提的點子很多是我們已經在做的，「眾開講」不知道狀況怎麼樣，所以這是一切的基礎。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我要講疊床架屋的情形，在初期是一個新的屋，但我們只要有恰當導流的機制，確保屋子的家俱、裝潢的東西，都是用資訊系統自動介接，而不是重複填報，至少一開始沒有花額外的力氣，之後只要運用這個累積出來的東西，來回應大家在別的一對一情況下的需求，攤提下來就省掉力氣，寧可在第一次回應的時候多花一點時間回，但你知道在第二次、第三次及第五次議員來的時候就說「你自己看」，因此其實這樣的情況下是有省到力氣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有四位朋友想要知道的是：「開放政府政策是好，但地方政府業務疊床架屋、永遠有增無減、人力縮編，推動上大多心有餘而力不足！」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實是這樣子，其實我在中央推動開放政府工作時，有三個原則：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個是不要讓大家加班。任何讓大家加班的，我就不推。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個是讓大家能夠分享credit，其實很多時候是在擬稿階段，大家好不容易做了很多東西，最後像政治勢力、角力，反正跟大家都沒有關係，所以到最後大家都不知道，大家做了這麼多辛苦的規劃、工作，所以大家的工作主觀成就感就不是很高。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是因為我加入內閣的條件是我主持的會議，不管最後會不會變政策，全文會公開，因此在這樣的情況之下，我們中間做不到、做一半的實際情況，像國旅卡，大家可能之前污名化說公務員有特殊福利，但是後來討論的結果，其實是幫國庫省錢，意思是剝削公務員，因此在這樣的情況下，這一件事有正名化的情況下，第一次看到PTT八卦版出來幫公務員講話，所以不管國旅卡政策現在變成怎麼樣，現在變成一半一半，也就是在折衷點，不管政策怎麼樣，至少之前不實的那一些傳聞，好像說這是公務員的特權之類的，而不是不發休假加班費的補償方案，這一件事是有獲得澄清的，這一點credit是有共享的，並不是被政委收割掉，這個是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個，這是風險的分攤跟風險的降低，其實剛剛市長已經講得很好，當你用開放決策的方式做出任何事情，就算是一點的事情，這個風險都是比較低的，因為不會出去之後，又忽然說忘記邀誰，就上街、占領，所以這一件事是在不傷身體、加班太久的情況下做，無論如何在未來都對大家有風險降低的情形。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且因為各部會PO是分擔的，所以這個網絡，中間大家彼此凝聚共識、求救的情況下，好比像人事行政總處行文給銓敘部，要不要一小時一小時放假的時候，以前人總自己提這個案，跟銓敘部的相對權利關係非常不對等，但是現在就可以說是所有部會的PO一致同意，與利益關係人經過調查之後同意，就有這個依據，我們在公部門基本上就是要做依據，一旦是透過這一種開放決策而做的，這個依據是很穩的，之後不管發生什麼事，大概不會說是圖利或者是什麼東西，一開始是在開放空間做出來的決策。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "透過自動化的方式，讓工作的勞力能夠減低或至少不要增加，然後透過開放過程的方式，讓大家credit能夠共享，在中間發生的風險有一個機制去吸收，這三件事才是推PO的目的，當然這三個很難同時都增長，但至少不要做一個、而犧牲其他兩個。因此從外面看起來，推得相當緩慢，一開始做的都是民生相關的議題，像報稅軟體、恆春要不要蓋機場、蓋醫院等等，但至少每一步大家都可以想到這一件事是不傷身體。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有四位朋友想要知道：「要解決問題應先界定問題，在大家對po都沒什麼概念時，如何設想po所會遭遇到的問題，進而找到適合的解決方案呢？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實PO全部的目的是不需要把壓力集中到一個人身上，為何當時會有PO制度？我們發現有大型的國是會議或者是論壇或者是飛雁開放決策，確實大家都有培力或者上課，但是這樣子累積出來的能量到下一個案子的時候，因為下一個案子的性質不同，又是另外一批承辦人，或者是如果需要外包廠商，又是另外一個外包廠商，如果需要行政的協調，又是另外一個局處，所以變成在單一局處累積的信任、能力，沒有辦法橫向轉移到別的局處，別的局處發生這個事情的時候，沒有辦法問說上個案子怎麼處理的，因為就沒有這一個機制在做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然我們都知道可能有次長、部長或是局處長層級的，不過講老實話，不一定很熟中間是怎麼做的，我們是不是可以在事務層級、科長層級，只要發爐了，就可以問之前的爐主說當年怎麼解決這一件事的默契。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為何需要固定的人？不一定是專職，但至少要固定的人，如果每次都換人，好不容易建立的默契都不見了，但是如果是固定的人，至少各位都是專業文官，所以都是在這裡，因此他講的是既有累積的經驗有一個分享的管道，並不是忽然之間工作，loading增加，然後大家一起爆炸，當然不是這個意思，而是大家輪流發爐。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "中央有建立一個概念，任何一個部會不會連續兩個月擔任主辦，每一個部會至少都有一段喘息空間，空閒的部分就可以用他們的經驗去辦那個案子，這一件事也是PO在每一個月的會議當中討論出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有四位朋友問到如何找到具有代表性的利害關係人，我想要跟大家溝通一下，其實「代表性」有三個不同的意思，我不上公共行政學，各位可能都比我熟，但是剛才講的抽籤、各種不同的採樣是叫做「統計代表性」。如果是透過民選，像議長、里長，這個叫做投票造成的代表性，但我們現在看的另外一種代表性，是他有沒有一些的獨特生命經驗是別人沒有辦法取代的，像我們現在正在做虛擬健保卡，如果是偏鄉醫師，甚至有居家看診的生命經驗，他並不需要是公會的理事長，只需要我有過這個生命經驗，而是在場的其他人都沒有過的，這樣就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是當我們說利害關係人的時候，我們講的是第三個，所以我們追求的是多元的代表性，而這個多元性每個人進場的時候，只要說「我的生命經驗要如何跟大家分享，我看到的事實，可能別人從他們的角度看不到」，這樣就可以了，這個東西當然跟前面的兩個，就是民選、統計的代表性，在學理上有一些扞格。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們目前解決的方法非常簡單，我們把它移到前面，當大家在問共同的事實、經驗及感受時，我們先讓這一些多元的進場，但當我們開始找解法，像專業者、統計及代表性的時候，到後面時再進場，這中間有一個銜接的機制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天因為時間的關係，沒有辦法實際講銜接的脈絡，但是基本上要把一開始的多元性跟最後說服大家的代表性，這兩個東西在中間進行接軌，這一件事是有很多具體的操作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "四位朋友問：「市府研考會應為開放政府窗口，而非智慧發展中心，避免局處首長誤認而以資訊單位當PO，建議重新函文各局處檢視PO名單，並提高層級，以落實本制度」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是非常好的提案。我們看一下當時我們在推PO時，國會聯絡人、新聞聯絡人、資訊管考相關業務，我們明訂至少要有這一些，我們發現到每一個部會當中，按照做法的不同，其實很多就開始長出來，有很多對於民間的部會，好比像財政部、衛福部、農委會的三級機關也開始出現了PO，好像越長越深的概念，並不是一開始是你，永遠就只是你，而是你獲得了這個授權然後就抓進來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個有一個好處，因為PO在每個月月會的時候，是一起決定要處理哪一個議題，所以這個部會的PO越多，好比像交通部一開始是兩個人，他們就有兩票，然後每個人只要拉越多人進來我們的月會，他的票數就會變多，我想這是財政部PO培養三級機關PO目的，在一開始的時候有更多的發言權、話語權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實重點並不是第一個人是誰，而是能不能透過這樣的機制去爭取到更多人加入到經驗共享的群組，然後來分擔大家的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且剛剛聽起來其實最後跟市長接軌的還是研考會，只是run這個平台的是智慧中心，因此目前這樣的狀況是還算ok的，這有一點像實際run「Join」平台的還是國發會資管處，但是是督導政委跟院長報告，這是機制、政治，而這個是政治的部分，這兩個其實是分開的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有三位朋友是「目前台南市已經有跨局處的協調機制，為什麼我們還需要PO制度？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我們之前在行政院裡面，我們也有跨部會的協調機制，例如跨部會的專案辦公室，但是這一些東西的問題是對內協調，我們協調再多次，像當時我記得在Uber進入臺灣主張不用職業駕照時，其實交通部、經濟部、財政部協調了無限多次，但外面不知道我們開了無限多場的會議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們在做電子競技案的時候，文化部、經濟部、教育部可能十年以來有開七十場會議，有些是院長親自主持，但外面都不知道會議內容，這才是最大的問題；也就是說，我們並不是沒有協調機制，而是過去協調的過程，我們連「有在協調這一件事情」都不讓外面知道。這樣會造成什麼問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我以前入閣前在課發會，我就會看到一大堆人在外面抗議性別平等教育之類的東西，我們在課發會裡面研修，他們在外面抗議，他們抗議的版本是兩年前討論的版本，我們協調的時候已經不知道到哪裡去了，兩年前的承辦人可能根本已經不在國教院了，我們現在沒有辦來討論兩年前的版本，因為不是我們寫的，但我們現在在研擬、協調的版本，卻沒有辦法拿出來跟大家進行討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此當時我加入課發會做的事很簡單，就是協調的過程，經過委員確認，逐字稿都可以修改，裡面如果有內部委員才聽得懂的笑話就會拿掉，拿掉之後就顯得公務員十分專業，然後再公布網路上。並不是大家不抗議，只是抗議的不是兩年以前的版本，你來抗議上個禮拜的版本，你坐下來對話，說不定他提出問題，可以解決問題，但是抗議的是兩年前的版本，絕對不可能幫你解決問題的，因此這個東西才是重點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你們有協調機制，非常好，PO要做的事是這個協調機制有什麼東西，你可以在擬稿階段就去做資訊公開，我們的資訊公開法是擬稿階段的資訊以不公開為原則，但是為對公共利益有必要者為例外，我加入內閣的時候，我看到的所有東西，公開對公共利益都有必要，所以不用再問了，我就是會公開。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然因為這樣的關係，國防演習的時候，我就要請假，我現在還不知道指揮所在哪裡，國家機密不能接觸的。各位可能接觸國家機密更少，所以沒有這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這一段還是培訓的期間，大家可以想一想在協調的過程中，有哪一些東西是公開對促進討論有幫助，而且不會爆炸的，這真的是可以好好想一想；如果只做這一件事，其實常常就已經夠了，因為外面就知道我們真的有認真做處理，並不會說一定要占領才可以讓大家重視，可以發現到我們已經在重視了，因此為何課審會要把學生跟家長代表邀進來的原因，這都是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「會不會流於為某些小部分的族群服務？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "會。這樣的機制都是為本來沒有辦法找到議員、局處長，也不是他們親戚朋友的這些人服務。因為本來如果有這一些管道，就用那一些管道了。為何要恆春連署八千多人，希望空勤總隊派直升機來恆春當救護車用？因為他們之前推了快十年，用各種各樣方法陳情或別的方式，但就沒有用，這是最後一個方法，才會來形成這樣的機制，這真的就是問題，所以我們才需要解決。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二方面，當大家在提出的時候，有八千人在重視這一件事，並不是誰的問題，以前的問題是當你跑去跟內政部陳請，內政部說空勤總隊設駐恆春機場，他只要一句話就好了，就是「本部沒有多的黑鷹直升機」，這樣就可以了，他最多說「旁邊國防部有一個軍營，你要不要用他們的軍機」，國防部就說「那個軍營要搬走了，交通部開一條快速道路，說不定後送會變成70分鐘」，交通部說「會沿路摧毀觀光，這個好像不太好，衛福部開一個醫院好了」，衛福部說「我們在前瞻有提過，前瞻提了就沒有錢，所以是不是國發會統籌一下，你們是管前瞻的」，所以在以前不管找誰都沒有用，因為每個都可以推給右邊，國發會說不定又推回內政部，所以在這樣的情況下，繞了非常多年都沒有做成，而且每個人都怕圖利，因為每次來提案的人都不一樣，每個人都覺得是不是要為了他自己的私利。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在公共政策網路參與要點有一個很重要的要點是「冰桶挑戰」，也就是權責機關兩個以上，A說B、B說C、C說A是主辦的時候，國發會來協調，國發會協調成功率是50％左右，所以有時會協調成功，但有時會不成功，不成功的時候怎麼樣？對不起，大家都是主辦，一起去恆春，一個都跑不掉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此這是我們當時解決的方法，我們左邊看到所有這一些人真的就跑去恆春，我也去恆春，然後一次跟所有提案的各方利害關係人，還有很重要的鄉民代表——並不是PTT——縣議員、醫師、律師，那還是談事情，只是是在公開的情況下談，網路上有這個影片，有空可以去看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣video就詳細形容一方面讓利害關係人在芳睿專業的主持下很專業討論，二方面把這個討論，也就是直播到區公所或者是鄉公所，大家都可以在那邊看，要陳情的都衝著我來，因為我在那邊主持，我做的事情就像ESPN的球評一樣，他現在拿這一張簡報、現在是講什麼用意並解釋給鄉民聽，鄉民不管是抗議或者是什麼東西，都不會干擾到這一種討論，所以連線討論的方式是我們當時花了五個多小時，把所有可能的解決方案全部都盤點完，每一個部會都具體回應，到最後大家有一個共同的價值，就是我們要把醫生跟護理人員的心留在這裡，讓大家更相信當地的醫師跟護理人員。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一旦大家都確認這是共同價值，解法就呼之欲出，把最好的設備擴充恆旅醫院，你真的需要高雄的醫師過來的時候，你用直升機飛過來，並不是把病人飛到高雄去，這樣真的對嗎？反過來，如果把醫師在這邊進行訓練，慢慢把醫護人員留下來，他們現在是連宿舍都沒有，這個情況下一定對大家都不壞的解法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此禮拜五討論完以後，禮拜一拿給院長，院長親自視察，發現恆旅醫院真的破破爛爛，那就撥了3.3億，然後就回到內政部營建署，現在正在建恆旅醫院。這個過程的重點並不是即時解決，雖然對當地的民眾很重要，但最重要很可能的是，在這個過程中已經確認其他部會的解法不會讓事情更好，這個解法是大家成功下莊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每個提案人都是小部分的族群，可是這一些小部分的族群，以前沒有發言權，加起來好不容易湊到八千人，然後我們找到這一些小部分族群都可以接受的方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友問：「可否利用市府的line@平台作為對外蒐集公民的議題意見，包括問卷或調查統計？ 我覺得要把PO的角色提高到副首長層級較容易解決內部橫向溝通」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實我們在各部會的PO，都是直接向次長，也就是資訊長報告，當然大部分還是簡任的朋友，但也有一些是年輕的朋友，但是無論如何是可以直接往他的次長報告，也就是在次長協調會議，拜託幫我把這個提出來，因為我想要冰桶挑戰，另外兩個部會不進來沒有辦法解決這個問題，這個是PO最主要的權利，這一件事我是滿同意的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "LINE平台也是很好的方法，只是要確認這個東西的相對重要性，是能夠讓群眾幫忙決定，而不是自己去決定，這是為什麼每一個「提點子」，其實不管醫檢師工作過量、準公共化、臺灣歷史建物保留區，所有這一些東西在底下都會有正反兩面的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "右邊是其他的意見，左邊是支持的意見，這有一個很重要的視覺設計，雖然左邊是275個意見，右邊是16個，但並不是拼場，而是像拼圖的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最值得大家重視的意見，我們類似像sli.do的投票方式，票越多就浮到越上面，不管是正數票或是負數票，在這個過程中，我們可以發現不需要自己一則則去看，是讓大家在參與的過程中，這個叫做「微參與」，也就是多按幾個讚，大家就可以把最重要的東西浮現在上面，我們在考慮事情的時候就可以收割，這個要設計進去，如果不設計進去，就要手動去做，這絕對是大家會加分的，這個其實已經有解釋了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「請問，行政院po是專職或者是兼職……」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果本來是國會聯絡人、媒體聯絡人或者是在資訊負責「Join」的協調窗口等等，這個本來是工作的一部分，這只是賦予你額外的協調權限，但至少在一開始試辦一年的時候，不見得、不會通常額外的協調責任，所以有權無責，大家想一想說不定是一件好事，因為事實上那個責任是比較低的，你真的只是協調，真的有國會聯絡人，不會被賦予一個說好像明天變成立法委員程度的責任，當然不是，媒體聯絡人都變成報紙的主編，當然不是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以開放政府聯絡人不會說明天就變成為民喉舌、市長，重點只是確保利害關係人要到，他如果不知道、他如果很害怕，你把它聯繫以前做過類似事情的人，讓他不要害怕，其實就這樣，就這兩件事。至少一開始的一年，我會建議大家自己不要用工作量增加的方法去做，這也回答這個問題，也就是PO的定位與角色。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "兩位朋友想知道：「太倉促了！請將組織與處理程序先明訂清楚，不是用一埸講習與教育訓練就可以解決！」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我希望，接下來各位PO及各位PO繼續邀進來的人可以做的是，因為接下來還沒有那麼快提案，所以可以多一些時間，真的是用協作的方法，大家把組織運作的方法弄清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們一開始是說逐字稿十天之後要公開，所有PO告訴我說，因為那時有一個連假，大家本來回去要陪家裡的時間，就犧牲來看逐字稿，他們就說這個十天不ok，應該是要十個工作天，所以一提出來就馬上修改了，因此現在是十個工作天等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我跟所有的人都是叫我唐鳳，而不是叫我長官，叫我長官我會假裝聽不到（笑）。意思是我只是hold住一個空間讓大家對話，我不會由上而下去說一定要用什麼規則來做，我當然會說冰島這樣做、馬德里這樣做，因為我國際上很多朋友，但來臺灣說不定水土不服，然後大家就改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這一個過程中，PO自己透過民主決策的方式去設定這個過程，這個是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像「來監督」，當時PO的共識是說行政院試辦一年再回來問我們，結果後來問他們，然後就還好。所以如果當時我是硬推的話，大家就會覺得PO是一條鞭制度，大家聽到一條鞭，都知道有一些超然獨立的朋友們，確保我們的數字沒有錯、確保我們都沒有違法。超然獨立聽起來真的很棒，但如果用相同的方式做開放政府，那事實上大家感受是很不好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以當時大家很怕是不是「開放政府一條鞭」？所以後來發現真的不是這樣子，完全是橫向的連結，完全沒有縱向power。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我講的每句話，大家都當作建議就可以了，好就採用、建議不好就不用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「機關首長是否充分了解PO制度？受指派的PO是否能有效授權？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是兩個問題，第一個問題是我們運作一年多來的觀察，凡是跟人民面對面的機關首長，現在大概都瞭解到PO的分寸在哪裡，這包括一些大的部會，像衛福部、內政部、農委會之類的。確實也有一些跟人民關係沒有那麼近的部會，像幕僚機關部會等等，這一些確實PO比較是支援前線的角色，他的首長並不一定那麼確定，當然有一些例外，像施能傑老師在學校原本就是教這個，他當然非常熟。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這個當然本來會參差不齊，這是大家心理要準備的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接著是有效授權的這一件事，這個是為什麼需要協調，如果你發現沒有辦法有效授權，你想要call某一個講師或者是教育訓練，你call不到，教育制度至少有一個月的機會，在這邊應該是主委，在我們這邊是政委跟各部會的次長，一季至少有一次，我們有轉方向的方法，讓你能夠透過這個機制，掌握更大的協調權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但在你的同仁手上要很清楚，這個協調權是非常輕的，只是確保正確的人在同一個房間裡的權利，而不是任何別的權利，不是拍板的權利，我們在公部門，大家都知道，如果掌握拍板的權利，大家就跟你翻桌，如果一定要在這一次會議上做出決定，大家就翻桌，這是一定的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果我們是來，大家確定彼此知道的情況，對於事實、感受有一些對齊，其實我們之前有處理過目前正在發動五個公投的兩個團體，就是單身、未婚的女性是不是能夠運用人工生殖法權利的案子，大家都以為你邀了五個公投的三個團體，一定會翻桌，但後來發現我們在討論的是，未來小孩在未來的世界裡面到底會不會被接受，我們如何建構社會接受的權利，而不是當下只是為了他們的私利。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最主要的利害關係人根本還沒有出生，或者還沒有辦法講話，你會發現人性中善的一面就浮現，大家想像中對決的狀況不會發生，或至少在一定程度之內發生，因此你能不能有效授權取決於大家多瞭解羅爾斯說的「overlapping consensus」的概念，就是你要找到一個夠具體的東西，讓大家可以討論，而不是陷入意識形態的討論當中。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「在現今的制度下，往往都是由下層想好解決方法，和不同單位溝通出方案，再辦理形式上的簽陳或會議，在溝通上下層會承擔最大的壓力，也無法確保解決方案是正確的，往往只是內部各種妥協的結果，要如何形成有效的機制，或許要請院這邊訂出個章程」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「行政院及所屬各機關開放政府聯絡人實施要點」的作者葉寧已經先回台北了，不然這個應該要他來回答的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個要點裡面，我們已經非常儘量把這個事情都放在總說、立法理由及條文當中，當然在地方政府當中，一定會長成不一樣的樣子，這個要點並不是行政院所屬機關「及地方政府」要點，你們還是要訂、要修自己的要點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡面最重要的一件事是，我們在溝通上，當所謂下層能夠去跟外面進行介接時，突然之間壓力就轉向了，因為時間的關係，我不會講細節。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我給大家看一個外掛機制。這是「總統盃社會創新黑客松」，這個是由總統府主辦的黑客松，把小英各個政見當中，大家覺得做得不夠好的地方，不要只是罵，大家來提案。大家平常聽到黑客松是兩、三天的活動，這個是三個月的活動，大家提完案之後，可能我有資料，需要大家一起來解決，或者是沒有資料，我希望總統府幫我協調出資料來，等等的方式花了三個月的時間提案報名、一起選出五隊，最後的優勝是完全沒有錢、獎金，唯一的獎品是總統府會盡一切力量跟行政院合作，把大家的提案融入公務的流程當中，當然我們還有很多可以改進的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們要提的是，這一些題目很多看起來民間社群提的，像「生命線臺灣總會」或者是「阿龜戰隊」或者是「天下雜誌」或者是「社企小兵」，這都是非常有創意的東西，但這一百零四個提案當中，可能有幾十個是科長寫的。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家平常沒有支援、政治意志、跨部會協調有問題，就寫一個提案，可能已經放在抽屜兩年了，就去找民間的朋友，然後去總統府提一個案，然後配合辦理，在這個過程中，就成功達成正確外掛設計的三個條件：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，在科內或者是部內的credit不會受到影響，即使做爛了，那也是社群的創意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，只要有某些部份做得好，最後得利是你的，因為你的公務流程，確實隨著新的服務設計而改變了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，在這個過程中，其實民間更知道公務員是很專業的，各位真的在解決實際上的社會問題，所以你跟民間的信任就增加。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個不總是發生，前兩個總是發生。所以我們是透過外掛再接回來的方式，這是我們實際執行的方法。各位在地方政府一定有可能很多更好的方法，這是我們在跨院層級的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，大家剛剛有提到「公民提案」，市政也可以提案，我們這邊是PO投票、由PO投票，每一個部會不會連續兩個月主辦。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「開放政府聯絡人制度會不會與現有制度重複？不要為了開放而開放」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在的問題是如果不開放就會被開放，如果開一個協調會議之後，我們不把到底討論什麼，去用某種方式進行公開的話，你很難說民間那一些委員出去之後，會不會被媒體堵訪？一定會的，你不能叫他不能被媒體訪問。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "三家媒體訪問三個委員，聽起來好像三個世界，好像開了三個不同的會議，這樣真的比較好嗎？沒有比較好。或是有人偷偷錄音，但有完整的脈絡，然後出去五秒鐘，大家就蒙受不白之冤，相信大家都有充分的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此在這樣的情況下，你開放的好處是不會被開放，你開放的好處是，這樣子實際做調查報導的記者，實際用他的專業加入分析意見的記者，真正的新聞工作者跟你才會變成朋友，而不是那些馬上來抄，然後一、兩句就放大的新聞工作者，所以我們也發現這一種激進式透明，其實得利最大的是獨立媒體，以及跟實際在做有報導的工作者，因為這樣他們取得第一手資料的成本降低了，他們的時間成本才可以去做其他的事情，所以媒體透過這樣的開放，真的是大家的朋友。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「政府每年預算都有既定具體目標作為，人民如何參與?那又要誰來規劃計畫執行？」剛剛其實市長講了一個非常好的概念，一開始大的方向跟設計，凝聚大家要解決共同問題，中間可行性規劃與實作，以前都是綁成一個很大的案子，然後說不定就是SI的一個系統整合商全部都做，當然會轉包，到最後就是找一個人負責。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "誰做先期規劃根本沒有實驗性，因為實驗完就是他的了，這樣其實有各種問題，相信各位都非常清楚，我們現在的做法是在採購法上鬆綁，你可以未來一直開99萬的這一種規劃標或者是設計標出去，而且都不會被說是圖利，因為就是說要做小規模實驗，這一個東西多做幾次，真的有收斂出來解法的時候，再實際變成實際的實作標。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前是工程、採購都很清楚的問題了，這一個事情會在這一個會期盡可能push立法院解決掉，之後就比較像剛剛所講的荷蘭方式去進行處理。其實現有採購法經過一些函釋之後，也是可以處理的，如果有興趣的話，歡迎聯絡PDIS。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「請問民眾是指網友嗎」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實透過網路表達是一塊，但是我們到最後，其實就是一個召喚獸的概念，恆春有八千人召喚我們，我們還是要去恆春，如果有五千人連署，我們會說先報名的五個人先面對面溝通，他們在網路上表達意見的相對重要性，但是沒有辦法很清楚分享他的生命經驗，生命經驗還是要面對面方式分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前面對面方式分享的時候，沒有充足的轉譯跟紀錄，大家來的時候，腦裡是十年、二十年前的狀況，我們現在是對齊、聚焦，把這個過程分享出去，這樣子外面五千個人、一萬個人就會有教育的作用，所以PO辦了四十場，沒有一場翻桌的，最接近翻桌的一場，有一些朋友們覺得有人有創傷經驗……你要不要先走（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最近的一場是有人認為財政部每一年預計要徵多少稅收跟實際徵多少稅收，好像實際徵到的部分是不是比較多？是不是有超徵？是不是發消費券退還給大家，大家可能有聽說過，這一些朋友們有私怨，無論如何不管怎麼樣，乍聽之下有道理，但是聽過之後發現並不是這樣子，財政是赤字，雖然收得比預期中得多，但是花得更多，所以事實上預算還是短少，花得還是比較多，只是每一年舉債比想像中少一點，如果要發消費券，是要舉債來發消費券，等於是用未來子孫的錢來付現在的錢，當然這並不是好主意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是在此之前，並沒有很明確一、兩句話的方式說這個是短估，這個是估算上不精準，但是並沒有真正超徵。最後收到這一句，對於行政院的發言人，其實滿有用的，你聽到這個東西，反射性說這個不是這樣子，這樣是透過面對面的方式聚焦到一定的程度，中間大家都付出了非常多的情緒成本，但是至少在最後是有凝聚出一個合理的說法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「如果提案是中央權責、可以直接移轉嗎？或由國發會直接受理再分案就好。何必各縣市都有一個？是疊床架屋？還是浪費資源？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這個是非常好的主意，我們就往這個方向規劃（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「有成功的案例嗎？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛其實已經講了還算滿成功的，我們在國際研討會講的時候，大概都是用這一個案例，也就是「報稅軟體難用到爆炸」，他提出問題的人剛好是有能力解決問題的人，他本身就是一個設計師，所以只要放下面子問題，就把所有人的意見、字爆多、華麗讓人迷惘，去年會跳出一個小娃娃說「感謝您對國家的貢獻」，想要心情好一點，就有網友尖銳指出「想到要報稅，心情就不好」，所以不要試著讓我心情好，讓他趕快報完就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實大家的意見，就算5萬人提同一個意見，他只是一張便利貼，因為他是同一件事，在這個過程中，大家腦裡有一個心智圖，就是報稅從一開始的每一個部分可以分別用不同工作坊的形式，可以跟廠商、右下角最會吵的朋友們，在專業領導人之下，一起去把報稅軟體從這個畫成那個，我們只要砸足夠多的錢一定做得出這樣的東西來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個目前96％的滿意度，剩下來的4％還是相信不舒服的地方，這個是大家一起蓋出來的，到明年還是有方法、還是有機會，可以把不舒服的地方調整好，所以這一件事才是最重要的，這樣就等於多了非常多人幫你這樣子共同創造出來的政策，甚至裡面只有一句話是他寫的，他也願意幫你解釋，這個才是他真正成功的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「開放決策立意良善，但希望真正落實，而非流於形式，最後只是為提案而提案，增加業務行政工作」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實開放決策這一件事，其實剛剛都已經講得非常清楚了，開放決策我就不會再作學理上的說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我這邊是用「開放政府夥伴關係」對開放決策這一件工作，是強調四件事，我非常快帶過：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，發生事情之前，在彙整脈絡的階段就讓大家知道，這個是「透明」；" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，在這個過程中，誰有什麼想法、要有充足的方式，讓大家把想法提到所有人都看得到的地方，這個是「參與」；" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，中間想法收進來之後，到底這一些想法跑到哪裡去，大家要隨時能夠問，這個是叫做「問責」，我們要隨時準備回答，這個是「當責」，但不要讓大家每一天加班，要自動化，這個叫「課責」機制；" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後，我們要透過各種方式，讓不擅長寫字、說話等等的朋友，用自己最舒服的方式去參與，這個叫做「涵融」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以開放決策大概是這四根柱子，中間最重要要做到的事情就是trust，也就是要增進大家彼此的互信。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「PO是不是就是一個沒有立場、單純記錄會議給大家參考的角色？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想跟大家講的是，一個好的PO到後來，其實必須take all the sides，有多少個立場，你就要站多少個立場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是很困難的，所以主持工作確實是情緒勞動。主持人如果本來有一些強烈的立場，你同時要站在自己的對立面，心理會有強烈的掙扎，即使是這樣子，還是要站在他那邊，還是要幫他把話說清楚，還是要知道事實上事情從他的角度看，真的是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當你可以take all the sides，這個空間才會出現，並不是一定要幫他解決，不是這樣子，而是要能夠讓他有一個感覺，即使他是很邊緣的意見，他也有被聽懂，其實這樣子就夠了，全部就是這樣子：讓他覺得被聽懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之後討論出來可能不盡人意，他覺得被聽懂，雖不滿意、但可接受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，並不是沒有立場，而是要有所有人的立場。如果有一些宗教修行，像打禪七、認知行為治療，或是瑜珈、皮拉提斯我想都有幫助，就是要放下自己的一些成見，願意站在每一個利害關係人那邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「既然PO制是希望建立一個開放的，有效的平臺，是否能由中央機關建立一個資訊平台，甚至是民意爬搜的機制，透過新科技如人工智慧，大數據等分析人民真正的需求，帶領地方機關走在正確的方向，如此一來蒐集的資料來自全國，除了地方外，也可以得到綜觀的全局，在經濟上也能集中資源做有效利用。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實是這樣，我們現在其實不管是基本地理資訊、公共民生物聯網，這邊講的是ci.taiwan.gov.tw，其實我們會不斷開這一種網站，像ai.taiwan.gov.tw、bio.taiwan.gov.tw、smart.taiwan.gov.tw、si.taiwan.gov.tw，這一些目的並不是單一部會，事實上也沒有中央跟地方的分別，就是「taiwan.gov.tw」，不管你是空氣盒子，水、地、空災，不管你是國網中心，是做區塊鏈或者是任何地方，大概都有可以貢獻的地方，就把可以貢獻的地方、可以共享的部分都公開在這邊，每一年如果能夠解釋更清楚，有300萬的獎金，這個算是雛形。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外si.taiwan.gov.tw是做社會創新，達成永續發展目標。我想中央不斷在建立這樣的東西，如果有興趣的話，歡迎隨時跟我聯絡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「已經是做研考很讓人頭痛，做PO會不會讓人更討厭？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果想要把人協調來的時候，讓人覺得你是選另一邊站的，確實別人就會討厭你，事實上就是這樣子；但是如果你是選他的邊站，他就不會討厭你，就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以當你協調三方過來的時候，如果你讓這三方都瞭解到你是可以站他那一邊的，就像剛剛講的，這樣的情況下基本上是不會讓人討厭，這個是非常需要修養的部分。我並不會假裝這個是很容易的一件事，但這個是值得去努力的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「地方和中央不同，我們更接近群眾，已有機制蒐集民意，開放平台是否僅部分民意，太多雜訊，內耗公務人力」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "基本上這個問題就是大家的核心問題，如果大家發現你的任何機制是正在虛耗公務人力的，希望各位用月會、季會的方式去廢除這部份的機制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這就是試辦的意義，試辦的意思是隨時摘掉、隨時倒流，把門檻架高跟降低，這個就是我們在試驗，我們在算風險係數，當然也許試辦可以用十年，這樣子在過程裡面，每一點都可以說我們就是在調整，也許我們就叫做「試辦開放政府聯絡人要點」好了，這個重點是當你看到有虛耗的時候，是不是在共同價值上是創新的東西，是不是可以透過機器介接、新技術，讓東西透過外包的方法來解決，一下子想不到，我們就先放著、不要處理，如果你想到了，智慧的那一邊就有非常多的實際案子可以做了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「發言人、府會聯絡人、輿情群組、跨局處...拜託。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實是很需要拜託他們，如果不拜託他們的話，其實事情也沒有辦法成功，所以拜託的功夫也是需要練習的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，我們在行政院也很誠實跟大家說，我們有遇到一些題目，是到最後沒有任何部會願意出來擔的，像有一個提案是「希望我們廢除民國紀年，改成公元紀年」，這個東西沒有主管機關，當年制定的時候，根本沒有人想到這一件事需要主管機關，所以這個條例是沒有主管機關的條例。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然也沒有誰主動出來，試這麼政治性高的政策，所以接下來無疾而終，我們就跟提案人說「對不起，找不到主管機關」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有一位朋友提案到外交部，這一位朋友會很快到空總Office Hour跟我面對面討論，他希望外交部能夠跟耶洛因大使館的外星人建交，他只要把大使館建好，外星人的飛碟就會降落在臺灣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這看起來是外交部的工作沒有錯，但是外交部的要點裡面，似乎沒有跟外星文明建交的要點，所以非常困擾。當然到最後也是回應，外交部目前是跟國家進行外交，跟外星人真的沒有辦法處理這樣的事。當然目前國防、外交是總統權責，所以我們會說這是總統權責回應過去，實際上我們也真的沒有辦法承接。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實你跨部會是可以的，但是如果在各部會的N不管地帶，這一件事是真的很需要各部會很主動來說這是真正的問題、願意解決，不然的話，球落在N不管地帶就放著，我們真的不知道怎麼處理，反正最後的風險就是我吸收，有問題都是唐鳳的錯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「如何參加網路上公共議題的討論，讓正反雙方都可以公平的討論（不要偏向一邊），在地方政府的權責下」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不要讓大家覺得這是最後一次，每一次都可以銜接到下一次，這樣子就可以了，全部就是這樣，就是用時間換取空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果大家覺得一個月之內就要拍板，所有的人都爆炸，但是大家覺得討論好才拍板，其實一個月就討論好了，但重點是一開始要講說大家討論好再拍板，其實收斂的速度非常快，但一開始說一個月就要討論，保證到三個月還在爆炸，這是期待管理方法的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「開放決策立意良善，但希望真正落實，而非流於形式，最後只是為提案而提案，增加業務行政工作」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這真的很重要，其實我們做金融創新實驗，就是所謂的金融沙盒，第一案會決定後面幾案民間的印象，所以金融沙盒第一案是所謂的金融普惠，現在要雙證件才可以開卡，現在用手機就可以開戶，以前年輕的學生沒有聯徵中心的紀錄，貸不到錢，現在是用電信費的方式去算信用評等，有可以進行金融服務，讓本來沒有辦法享受到金融服務的人，可以很方便享受到金融服務。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "金融沙盒第一案是這個，大家想到金融沙盒是金融普惠，增加年輕人的選擇等等，接下來後面的提案就會開始往對社會好、公益等等的方向做，但一開始就是圖利財團，那就完了，因為聽起來就不太對，第一案是大家用來協作的第一案非常非常重要，這個是為什麼要挑國旅卡案當第一案的原因，因為可以集體洗刷公務員的污名，至少可以讓PO瞭解到政委的協調權限是有限度的，但至少在那個當中，可以把污名刷掉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「想多了解怎麼銜接統計代表性以及投票代表性」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是非常好的問題，基本上非常簡單，也就是你讓立法院框出一塊是在我們也搞不懂的地方交給多方利益關係人來討論，金融沙盒就是這樣子，無人載具沙盒也是這樣子，簡單來講，立法院沒有辦法管他們沒看過的東西，簡單來講就是這樣子，所以如果能夠說服代議士說你沒有看過的東西，先實驗讓大家看看、先實驗一年，我們再一起來做決定，這個時候公共討論的品質一定會增加，而且從立法院的角度來看，比較不會有那一種立法之後發現搞錯了，還要跟選民道歉的情況，因此這一件大家都沒看過的東西，像我剛剛在示意圖上所說的，新冒出來的東西，像無人載具等等的東西，我們沒有相應的部會、立法院也沒有相應的委員會，根本沒有管這個的機關，但是又是大家所關注的事情時，這一種事最容易做出這個形狀，因為反正沒有人有既定的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果大家已經吵了二十幾年、三十幾年，雙方都有強烈情緒等等的時候，確實比較難撐開討論的空間，因此這一個銜接是新興議題的時候，是容易的，當面向未來一、二代資訊權益的時候，這個是容易的，但是在這個當下，大家都想要在這一代解決，所以這個銜接就需要政治意志。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，我們在試辦的時候，我們儘量推薦大家去挑比較未來、前瞻的，這樣大家的感受比較好，再者是在這一個過程中，大家都可以彼此覺得有學到東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「協作會議有沒有可能忽略了沒有聲音，或有數位落差的弱勢者？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個數位落差剛剛有提到了，透過實際走到那邊、透過紀錄的方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「沒有準備就湊大家一起協作，會不會造成傷害？該如何避免？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "會不會造成運動傷害？如何避免？會的，有參加過318的人都可以告訴你，有強烈的運動傷害。但是我們要怎麼樣處理這一件事？當時在318的時候，有一位叫做音地大帝的朋友，在凱道舉辦「大腸花垃圾話論壇」來處理這一件事，所有有運動傷害的人，在占領內場宣布勝利之後，外場的人會覺得「我們的訴求呢」，因此在這樣的情況之下，他透過大腸花的方式，讓大家講講自己的不開心、來讓大家開心，這樣的方式去進行運動傷害的團體心理治療。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而團體心理治療，我覺得在公務體系內部也是非常重要的，其實各位很可能都已經有很多群組了，我就不在這邊多說。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而接下來都是個人問題，0票的，所以我就不唸出來，盡可能一句話回覆。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「Government needs to trust citizens, but government needs to be trusted by citizens more.Can we trust government?」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果政府不相信人民，而人民要相信政府，這個叫做法西斯，跟臺灣正在做的方向是相反的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得政府展現出對人民的信任，少部分的人民願意來相信政府，有五、六個人願意來參加，我們就非常珍惜了，到這個地步就好了，民主就是這樣子的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「PO到底要幹嘛？上完課還是不知道。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們課程當然要檢討，不過即使大家非常瞭解中央的PO在做什麼，到最後在地方的PO一定是不一樣的情況，因為議題的形狀、人民的組成、代表性的選擇與市議會的關係等等都完全不一樣，即使瞭解大家在做什麼，說不定是一件壞事，要想一想。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「要橋事情要有份量，人們為什麼要相信PO？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個直接向局處長、次長報告，或者是定期的檢討，這個都有出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「PO不就是代理民意進來政府規劃政策的窗口嗎？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "PO盡可能不要把自己想像成代議士，如果想像成代議士的話，到最後就會選一邊站，就沒有辦法站其他幾邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "PO做的事情一句話講就是一直站在中間跟結合各個不同利益關係人，這一件事如果一開始往某個地方偏了，就要找旁邊的局處PO說「我開始往這邊偏了」，你就要找旁邊的局處PO說：「我覺得我開始往這邊偏了，你要不要進來平衡一下」，我們開協作會議的時候，幫忙的桌長或者是主持人都是跟這個議題毫無關係的PO去當桌長或者是主持人，一方面是公共行政的優勢，二方面是他的專業跟這個無關，所以對他來講也是老百姓而已，所以這一些專有名詞也聽不懂，所以在這個情況之下，才可以擔任一個很良好、促使討論的角色，如果術語聽得懂的話，就會覺得站在那邊，而不是這邊，這是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「如果PO不能看到更全面、不同面向，該怎麼辦？PO是不是要是通才？（我沒辦法判斷超過我的本位與專業）」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "PO並不是本身要做判斷的角色，PO是讓大家在共識形成的過程中，不要白開會的角色，全部就是不要白開會，就是這樣子而已，並沒有什麼別的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「這次教育訓練不夠清楚」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "感謝這位朋友的回應，確實未來可以更清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「PO們怎麼排訂工作的優先順序」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個要問每一個部會的PO，按照在每個部會的授權不同，但是通常就是說這也是在開放政府聯絡人要點裡面有特別寫社會重大的關注，或是新興的議題，或是長期以來在各部會中間，就是權責不夠明確等等的這一些部分，大概就會是比較高的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「這是一個文化改變的實驗，去設計和執行以公民為出發點的政策嗎？有沒有任何實質的改變？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我們做哲學的，我們輸出的東西就是文化。你要問哲學有沒有用？哲學一點用都沒有，哲學只是不斷地促使大家思考一些重要的問題。在思考的過程中，你發現看世界的角度變廣、寬了，開始能夠跟別人看世界的角度互相重合，在這個重合的過程中，就不會卡在自己的現實裡面，而能夠建構共同的現實。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子來進行實踐的哲學詮釋學活動，並不會直接導向到任何看得到的產出。我們看到的產出，全部都列在這個簡報上。可以大量的關鍵字，串門子、SOP、文件逐字稿、線上直播、政策履歷、專欄論壇、準備接受採訪、經營自媒體、逐字稿機器人、數位工具培訓教學，所有的綠色（便利貼）都是產出，但是重點並不是這幾個，而是重點是中間這幾個，是沒有辦法量化的東西——「信任」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但我們試著透過政策履歷的方式，讓外面可以看到一年前是什麼、兩年前是什麼、現在事情是怎麼樣，大家看了之後，再自己去判斷。透過永續發展的實踐，我們希望下一代在看事情的方法，比我們這一代要來得寬廣，這才是真正文化上改變的意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「當po會不會擋人財路而被打？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是為什麼有一些比較敏感的政策討論裡面，PO都選擇用匿稱，而不是用真名來表達逐字稿，我們沒有說要用真名公開，所以我們在過程當中會看到匿稱出現，這個也是大家參考的一件事。實際上參與協調的人可能是這一些人，公開的可能是這一些，但在中間真的有一些人權力很不對等，就是希望用匿稱的方式開放，應該是要讓他有這樣的空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「議員一直來關說，po可以怎麼做？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一個很簡單的方法是邀請他來參加協作會議，但不要讓他有比別人更多的發言權。這講起來容易，但是實際上很困難，所以邀的是同樣的選民一邊站，確保每邊都有來，事前要有一對一的溝通，也就是先背對背，然後再面對面，讓他期待的設定是正確的，知道他來並不是當場拍板定案，而是以他的專業去進行分享，其實大部分的議員是聽得懂的，本來就知道有高拘束力跟低拘束力的地方，不要誤導這個是拘束力高的地方，其實他的主任很多都是協作會議具體提出的人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像剛剛講恆春，醫師用飛機從高雄飛到恆春，那個是鍾佳濱委員，他當時還在立院，所以用視訊的方式來提出，我們是非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「我們樂於做事，但不知道要做什麼。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣就是最好的狀態，因為媒體聯絡人或者是國會聯絡人，如果你硬要媒體跟國會議員做什麼，他們是不會理你的。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你要做的事是「求穩、應變、進步」，跟目前政策方向一樣（笑）；每天隨時的狀況真的都不一樣，但是在這個過程中，大家建立內部，可以穩定、互信的討論，對外是有一個討論的程序，這樣的一套方向，才可以應變、求穩。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「PO會讓我們的工作量變得很大，我不想當」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當工作量出現時，一個是把它眾包分給民眾來做，一個是自動化機器來做，另外一個是跨部門的PO分擔。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這三個選項如果都做不到，大家每個月討論一下，這部份的工作就不要做了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「很多問題PO制度無法解決啊」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實，PO制度只解決一個問題，因為大家對於政府的距離心理感覺變遠了，事實上沒有變遠，但因為社群網站、Mobile、Web 2.0，大家之間的感覺變得非常近，潛意識都重疊了，像幼兒園中一個哭、大家都哭的情況，事實上現在的狀況就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為民間這麼緊密，本來跟公部門的距離，本來並沒有很遠，但現在大家覺得很遠，因為相對上很遠。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我並不是要大家互相黏在一起，一個哭而大家哭，而是讓大家發現大家在哭的時候，你可以深呼吸一下，像是把即時戰略遊戲變成回合制的遊戲，讓大家可以願意等一個禮拜來釐清，願意等你一個月來進行爭點分析，願意等你兩個月，像你訂一個東西，你貨到付款，他要來家裡，黑貓宅急便或怎麼樣，重點並不是現在訂了，下一分鐘就要到，誰都知道不可能，但是重點是現在在哪裡，或者是現在用臺灣大車隊或用Uber叫車，大家知道車子在哪裡，並不是要知道下一秒鐘車子就要到，但是如果大家不知道車子在哪裡，焦慮會升高，一個哭、大家哭的情況就會出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「我們如何破除本位？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不同地方辦公、共享一些食物，都都是非常重要的，我只show一個東西給大家看，這個是台北空總社會實驗中心，協作會議如果不是在部會的場地，就是在這個場地，這個場地本身就是讓人比較放下戒心、能夠一起來吃一點好吃東西的地方，我們還有專屬的廚師等等，這個就是空間營造。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「如果有人非常堅持己見，也不願意聽人說話，怎麼辦？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在《寒山拾得錄》裡面已經有非常清楚的說明，就是「忍他讓他、 由他避他、耐他敬他、不要理他，再待幾年，你且看他」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "重點是，我們沒有辦法改變一個人想法，只能改變一個人的感受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個過程中，要讓他覺得聽到這個議題的時候，聯想到的並不是翻桌，而是比較好的場地、氣氛。他的想法沒有辦法那麼快改變，但是至少可以在事實上對齊、感受上變得比較好。這個是要經過一代、兩代，就慢慢發現事情是這樣，這是非常長期的工作，我們這一代做的是打底的工作，我們看任何威權的政體轉型成民主政體的時候，大概都是兩、三代才有所謂真正的「公民」出現，我們現在文化裡這些「臣民」的想法，沒有辦法靠一代的力量就解決，但大家都是在這個路上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「民眾的問題有些最後都會卡在法規的限制面，中央為了能夠加快解決的方式，會請地方政府直接制定地方自治法，後續中央就撒手不管了。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這個當然一樣，如果需要法規沙盒、中央法規調適等等，這個中央是有平台的，很歡迎直接跟相應的中央部會的聯絡人，或是直接跟sandbox.org.tw去聯絡，有一些真的是需要中央進行協調，請不要吝惜往上面丟。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「PO搶了民代工作怎麼辦？民代會不會變得更輕鬆？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "民代的工作，我覺得會變得更專業，就像我剛剛講的，我們讓專業調查報導的工作者有足夠的材料去做事，同樣的，民代就可以因為這樣子的關係，真正走訪第一線問的是對的問題，不會變成只有來排隊，到他服務處、抽得到號碼牌的那幾個人的問題，可以自己發揮在地方上聯絡的工作，這是我們公務員可能沒有辦法取代的、實際再更進一步瞭解當地經驗等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以其實像恆春或者我們在澎湖等等的東西，民代都扮演非常重要的角色，因為知道是長期結構的問題，只是沒有力氣去改變，而是讓這個結構每一點都可以知道，然後一起改變。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「中央已有join平台，很多制度是中央訂定，地方執行，各地方政府有需要再創立平台嗎？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，不必要在倡議平台，所以歡迎重新利用「Join」平台，我剛剛有多花一點時間介紹。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do：「請問日後要如何客觀蒐集議題意見？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實最簡單的方式，就是多方徵集，就是一個實際的想法、感受，當拋出來的時候，不要急著說是對或是錯的，因為其實感受沒有對或錯，我們在PDIS有自己架開放源碼軟體，也就是「pol.is」，目前正在用。這樣的一套軟體是讓你看到你在FB跟Twitter及匿名朋友的中間，你的位置在哪裡，這一套系統本身可以整理到底有多少邊，我們把共同的事實揭露，問大家對同一個事實的感受是什麼，可能你覺得很高興、我覺得很不高興，這都沒有對錯，接下來才能討論想法，因為你能夠照顧越多人的感受，他就是越好的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當我們做無人載具沙盒的時候，有人說沙盒應該要有明確的時間、空間限制，我在這邊可能是同意或者是不同意，我按同意或者是不同意，我的位置就開始移動，就知道我跟我的親朋好友相對位置是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是很重要的是並沒有「回應」的按鈕，所以你就沒有辦法去攻擊別人，沒有人身攻擊的空間，不然大家就開始人身攻擊的空間，摧毀彼此的公信力，然後開始貼貓咪圖片，那個都算好的，也就是貼表情包等等，每次冒出之後，就會開始說應該要提出一個更好的東西，讓別人也可以接受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以每一次run三、四個星期之後，再爭議的題目到最後都是長這樣子，所以大家覺得有些東西是價值或者是立場不同，但是不浪費時間在這個上面，我們花時間在大家還是競爭，但是競爭怎麼樣提出讓大家都能夠感同身受，覺得也就是這樣覺得的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個跟一般在FB、Twitter跟社群媒體上發言是相反的，在那一些社群空間裡，有時候越討論越分岐，但是在一個設計好的討論空間，不管是sli.do或者是「Join」或者是pol.is，越討論是越往左邊跑。這一件事就是讓公務員最省力，等於是有一個機器人幫你擔任主持人的工作，這個機器人沒有人類的感情，也不會被攻擊，只要確保這個演算法是開放的演算法，資料是開放的資料，任何人可以獨立檢證，放著不動，三、四個禮拜之後就有左邊的東西可以收割，在那個時候，所謂的Uber納稅、納保及納管，就是這樣的方法收割出來的，在這個中間，我一個字都沒有去動他。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，這樣子對公務人員來講可以省很多力氣，不管誰來找你，就說上去留言，我們先把大家的感受蒐集完，先不用急著提建議，先讓大家感覺怎麼樣，因此這一件事其實是最重要的，這個客觀並不是只能提出客觀事實，個人的感受是一定要給他經驗及空間分享，只是過程中，我們盡可能做一些不會讓自己一個哭，然後跟著哭泣的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後，連署案有時只處理到一個部分，還不確定要不要參採，只是後續處理，但是真的參採或者是不參採的時候，有沒有一個回來提醒大家的機制，目前「Join」平台是有這個功能，但是標成部分參採，或者是延續處理的部分，目前是只有後台看得到，目的是讓前一手能夠交給後一手，因為有時過了兩個月之後，承辦人已經換了，但是至少知道前一手哪一些是綠燈，就是知道不參採，哪一些是綠燈，就是已經過了，哪一些黃燈，也就是下一手換你。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個過程中，PO的功能並不一定要跳到第一線去回，但是要給一個很清楚的是回事實性的東西，貼超連結就好了；回感受性的東西如何進行倒流；要如何跨局處，可能踩線的時候回來找PO就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實平常的工作量不是很大，大部分是靠這個平台，如果這個平台有哪一些功能不符的話，其實國發會也很希望這個平台讓地方政府運用，這個是他們的KPI，也就是有多少的地方政府導入。所以我想國發會應該會很高興，也就是按照大家具體的意見去修改平台的功能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以上回答到這邊，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "非常感謝大家來參加動物保護加重罰則的會前會，我是唐政委的幕僚賴致翔，剛剛政委有跟各位打過招呼，她另外有行程，所以沒有辦法參加這一場的會議。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "在我右邊這一位是我們的速錄師薛雅婷小姐，她原則上會在今天會議中把發言的文字記錄下來，各位會有十個工作天的時間可以編輯，所以如果不小心講錯話，或者是講太快，又或者是講得時候覺得很順，但是事後看文字覺得不順，在十個工作天內都可以編修。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這個案子會議的時間，農委會跟提案人討論過，預定12月27日才開會，也許我們這個逐字稿為了不影響會前大家的討論，也許12月27日會議當天再公開。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我的左邊這三位都是主持團隊的同仁，第一位是林雨蒼，他原本是任職於NGO，所以他的觀點偏向民眾，常常會用民眾的觀點來跟各位公部門來作腦力激蕩「如果是民眾的話，可能會覺得公部門哪裡做得不好」。各位不要因為他是政委辦公室的同仁，就不好意思反駁或者是不好意思跟他持不同的意見，大家還是在平等的立場上一起來做議題討論。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著是張芳睿小姐，她原本在英國於內閣辦公室的Policy Lab，她原本在英國就是做類似的工作，在政策對外成形之前，先透過以人為本的設計，跟外界溝通，而真正瞭解使用者需求再來作政策的設計，而不是單純像傳統做法，有基層的同仁做一個計畫往上簽。原則上是協助大家從使用者的觀點來看。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最後這一位是馬克，同時會協助大家做議題整理及一些相關技術的部分，大概是這樣，時間接下來就給雨蒼及芳睿。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "法務部的同仁，待會有沒有要先離席？" }, { "speaker": "阮小巾", "speech": "不用。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "原本有聽到如果你們想要先離席的話，我們可以先處理法務部的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "現在讓農委會報告。" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "我先介紹一下，農委會第一位是陳宜鴻，接著是鄭祝菁，這兩位都是畜牧處的同仁。" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "這個是王文淨科長，也就是銘錦，等於是我們的小PO，報告當然由畜牧處來報告。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "我們報告內容是依照上次提供的議題分析資料來作進行。我們上次有提供給參閱議題的分析，提案人提出來主要是針對動保法，他認為相關事情的規定，如果對動物造成並沒有達到第25條所謂重傷的程度，又或者是肢體傷殘，甚至死亡的程度，不屬於這一類很明顯動物傷害的行為，也認為針對這一類的傷害動物行為也應該再進一步提高罰則，所以議題主要是針對這一塊，也就是動物本身可能有不當的動作了，然後有傷害動物。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "但是，從獸醫的專業判斷，又或者是從外觀上的觀察，其實是沒有看到一些具體的傷害，也就是生理的反映上是看不到的，針對這樣的行為，他也認為應該要進一步對行為人做到需要要公布他的姓名，可能還要強制做心理治療，要求他對動物的醫療後續，必須負擔這一個部分相關的費用，這個是提案人在這一次提案的主要主張。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實我們在分析他提案的時候，當然也有跟提案人做進一步相關的訪談，在跟他訪談的狀況裡面，當然他還是希望以對動物這樣的福利或者是因為流浪犬貓的處境比較可憐的狀態上，認為法制持續加重的罰則是必要的行政手段。在部門的分析上，我們主要會針對法規面跟執行面這一個部分所看到的一些問題來作分析。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "法規面這一個部分第一個問題是法律平衡性的議題，這個部分也可以請法務部比較專業的法律立場來進一步給我們先提示。就農委會這邊我們國家的法律對於傷害動物這樣的罰則跟對於人如果做到類似傷害的罰則，如果他的罰則之後的走向已經變得不對等的話，在國家法制的邏輯上，其實是不妥當的，這個是進一步需要釐清的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "第二，在法律條文跟實際的效果有沒有辦法達到像提案人想像的，我去加重了罰則，可以對動物傷害、虐待的行為，在整個社會上可以達到所謂不再發生或者是降低幅度的效果。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "依照過去的行政經驗，即使是現在的動保法已經加重到你對於動物做到可能已經虐殺，而他已經死亡的程度，如果有刑法，也就是一年以上相關刑責的狀態底下，至少以現在的經驗，我們很難真的去判斷因為加重了罰則，所以社會上這一類的行為就減少了，因此時效性，這也值得我們進一步探討的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "再來，有關於執行面的問題，以專業的獸醫師的觀點，如果因為人的行為而造成的傷害，必須要先科學上可以去判斷的，才可以去認定這一個罪刑是成立的，如果以獸醫的專業都沒有辦法判斷動物其實是有受傷的狀況，其實這個在行政裁罰上，會變成所謂市政的部分如何舉證，這一個部分也會進一步釐清。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "接著執行面的另外一個問題，也就是衛福部這邊有提供給我們這樣的說明。強制心理治療，其實包括現在對於人會採用到強制心理治療，都必須是非常嚴重，也就是所謂精神狀況的狀態，因此才會走這一條路。他提出來這個是衛福部比較專業的，我這邊只能代描述一下，如果是以會傷害虐待，這個比較屬於人格上比較像「反社會性人格」的患者，透過所謂的心理輔導治療，在醫學的研究上，並沒有任何的研究報告說這樣的治療對這一類人格的特質是有效的，因此先就以上我們針對這一個議題蒐集到的資訊跟所做的相關議題分析來作以上報告及說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "法務部要說明一下嗎？因為看你們有一張書面，要說明一下？" }, { "speaker": "阮小巾", "speech": "今天稍早前，我才被告知今天要來代表法務部出席，因為本來法務部是有一位檢察官及專門委員要出席，結果剛好檢察官有公務在身。羅專委因為一大早就被部長找去，之前因為檢察官已經知道今天不能出席，所以有提供書面的資料，大家請參閱書面的資料。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我說明一下，他是接玉琪的小PO。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "瞭解。法務部的資料就是這樣？也就是動物保護法第25條之1的法定刑為「一年以上，五年以下有期徒刑，併科新臺幣50萬元以上，500萬元以下罰金，已經遠重於刑法第277條第1項之傷害罪法定刑，對人的傷害罪，現在是三年以下有期徒刑、拘役或1,000元以下罰金」，是新臺幣3萬元以下的罰金。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "但是動物保護法虐待動物是一年以上、五年以下，這其實已經遠超過對人的傷害了，而且其實刑法對於人的傷害行為亦不處罰未遂，假設我今天想打一個人，但是我最後決定不打他了，最後拳頭揮出去的時候收手，這一件事其實刑法是不處罰，所以目前法律有失衡平，我這樣的解讀應該沒有問題吧？" }, { "speaker": "阮小巾", "speech": "（點頭）" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "所以這樣的意思是，如果你同樣的傷害方法，你打在人的身上會比罰得比在動物的身上還要輕，白話的意思是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "阮小巾", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "但是這個地方還是有一個差異，人是會說話，也就是他打我的狀況是怎麼樣，但是動物的狀況是不會說話的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們還是從頭開始來盤點。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我還是想要說一件事，目前盤點的內容，有一部分可能是我們要釐清一下，先看原始提案的內容，因為我們每個人針對議題會產生什麼樣的行為或者是做下一個什麼樣的行動，都是依據在我們的注意力放在哪裡，如果我們單看這個提案內容的話，可以發現他的注意力都放在新聞報導來看動物虐待這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以我現在想要確認動物虐待的這一個問題，注意力放在哪裡，注意力是不是放得夠多遠，是不是會有認知上的偏誤，因為看到目前的提案文字針對這一個議題來說，是有某種程度上的偏誤，因為資料管道來源是單一的新聞。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我想先問的是農委會這邊針對動物虐待的這一件事，有沒有更不同角度的眼光來看這一件事？才可以幫助我們在討論之前先認知到的事實來對焦，才可以討論這一個議題，而不是基於某一些新聞事件。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以農委會在處理動物虐待有沒有其他的事實觀點，也可以提供給我們來參考？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "畜牧處你們怎麼看虐待臺灣的現狀？" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "先從量化的觀點來看，因為量化的觀點會受到現在社會對於這樣輿情關注的程度，以前同樣的行為被報導的機會不多，又或者是以前對於所謂動物福利的概念，又或者是動物被傷害這一件事議題的關注程度，其實我們以前好了，其實關注程度是低的，也不太容易被社會看到。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "現在會因為我們社會對於這一個議題是比較關心的，因此就會有人去舉發，也因為社群網路這樣的效應，更容易被傳播，所以大家相對會有一個感覺，這個案件是不是發生地更頻繁。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "我們有一個問號，後端變得更頻繁是輿情被提高很多，所以更頻繁，因為動保法的執法機關還是在縣市，所以個案的檢舉跟處理是縣市政府，我們會有相關的統計資料，詳細每一年到底有多少案件，這一個部分我們今天在會議上是沒有辦法來作仔細數字的提供。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "但是當然趨勢上也可以看得到，這幾年對於動保違法案件檢舉的數量是一直在增加的，同樣的，我們也認為背後必須被注意到，也就是因為民眾的關注力是增加的，大家更願意去提供相關的事證，讓行政機關可以針對這一類的案件來作調查，這個是我們在行政實務上的經驗跟看法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不過這一件事有辦法被證明其實是因為大家關注或者是因為輿情的關係，所以案件數量才增加嗎？或者有沒有可能反而被曲解成臺灣的動物虐待是越來越多？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "我覺得這個是非常個人的論述，可以採不同的立場，但是以行政機關這一個部分，我們必須用科學化的敘述，我們一定要承認我們確實解決案件一年比一年多，檢舉案件一年比一年多，勢必是人才發動檢舉案件，人為何會越來越多？還是越來越多的人關心這一個議題，這一個部分目前為止並沒有任何研究報告是專門針對民眾對於所謂動物議題的關係程度，這部分並沒有相關的科學研究。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "我們只能說就行政機關的業務經驗，我們認為可以去作這樣的論述，也就是民眾對於這一件事的關注力，確實逐年一直在提高的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝分享。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不過我覺得有一些東西可能農委會要先準備一下，因為提案人好像一直不斷說的是延吉街連續潑貓事件、光復橋下打狗事件等，等一下農委會要說明一下你們處理的狀況怎麼樣、認知發生的狀況怎麼樣及後續的處理，這個是跟你們小小分享一下，因為這個有可能會是講到一半之後，他們怎麼辦、光復橋怎麼辦，這個時候農委會有一個說法要說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "當天可以請相關案件主辦機關就調查……例如你講延吉街，這個是台北市動保處實際案件調查者，後續行政裁處是不是移到相關刑事偵查，其實最清楚這個脈絡，包含案件事證及處理的流程，我覺得由台北市動保處執行這個個案的經驗來做是最為精準的，包含屏東這一個部分也會請屏東縣政府的調查同仁當天可以出席說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可以。有一個小小的建議是除了講案件的處理之外，我覺得可以這樣子，但是我不確定是不是可以，也就是看你們的評估怎麼樣，你們可以嘗試說這一案發現有一些環節可能沒有做好，後續針對這樣的環節如何加強，如果有講到這一塊的話，我覺得他們更容易被理解，也就是原來這樣子，在他的認知中因為發生這樣的事，而且已經在做修正了，所以會比較安心一點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我想要請農委會再分享一個小問題嗎？因為我看分成法規面、執行面，為何是分法規面及執行面？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實行政機關最重要的兩件事是法律制度，制度面是什麼樣的長相，制度訂好了一定要有可行性，進一步就要來看這一件事在執行面可行性到什麼程度，是不是有一些只是理想，在執行上只是就現有的資源或者是各方面的配搭硬做下去會碰壁，因此我們會朝這兩個觀點。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "本身這個議題並沒有所謂文化、環保跟這一方面相對距離比較遠的，因此我們在分析這個議題會從這兩個觀點來做切割。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解，謝謝分享。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一個層次我們有分出虐待認知，我們彼此對於虐待這一件事的認知是不同的，剛才是你們報告提到的，有時有傷、沒傷，獸醫的判斷跟有些動保的團體是不一樣的，這個地方我就放在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們當然也有放您剛才提到的，以前同樣行為被檢舉不多，以往對動物傷害的關注相對低，也不容易被社會看到，還有社群網路興起，動物虐待議題更容易被傳播，導致大家誤以為變頻繁。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果文字有任何的問題，請麻煩說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "法規面我想要做一個結構性的建議，原本的問題二，在議題分析表是法律條文與實務效果有很大的差別，但是是因為要加重罰則這個解法所衍生出來的問題，所以其實不會是動保案件的核心問題，如果回推背後的問題，應該是虐待動物案件層出不窮，尋求的解法是動物保護法加重罰則，然後再回推到法律條文與實務有很大的差異，應該是這一件事的限制。不知道這樣結構性的調整，大家覺得可不可以？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們這樣盤點的原因是想要知道做每一件事背後的原因是什麼，如果我們光談要加重罰則或者是心理治療，其實我們都很難回應為什麼今天要做這一件事，加重罰則要如何加重，對象是誰，其實現在是很模糊的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "為了確保這一件事該不該做，我們會希望推出做這一件事背後的原因，也就是找出核心的問題，這樣才能幫助我們確保做這一件事，不然其實我們討論的解法是很意識形態去討論加重，但是加重到什麼程度，其實我們沒有事實的依據去幫助我們討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以對提案上的文字理解、農委會的理解，不知道這樣的脈絡是否是正確的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這樣我有一個小建議，是不是可以把這兩個放在最上面，然後再放到法規面及執行面的部分。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "可以。因為最上層是一個解法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我說明一下調整的原因，心智圖是代表思考的脈絡，如果心智圖的線拉不出來或者是結構不太一樣，也就是思考方向完全不一樣，因此這一個地方芳睿會比較在意把這個東西做好，如果思考脈絡是ok的，我們看問題才會是重點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們就這樣子加重罰則，那從法規面來看。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "法律條文跟實務效果有很大的差異，有幾個建議：" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一，虐待動物到加重刑法不得易科罰金，但是問題是要考慮到法律的衡平性。接著是虐待傷害動物者需公布個資跟強制心理治療，是否妥適。當然法務部已經有提到一個解釋了，我只是把它放上來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是公布姓名、照片與違法事實是否有用？其實公布姓名跟照片還有違法事實是有發生霸凌的事情，這個對動物福祉是不是真的有幫助的事，這個其實是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "建議重視設計預防性與事後管制制度，當然就農委會提供的資料，也有人還是建議動物保護法刑事處罰還是要移除，這一張不太理解農委會放原因，可以幫忙說明一下嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "針對這一個議題，我們有再進一步參閱針對刑法相關研究的報告，因為這幾年滿多學校的博碩士論文，他們從法制面會去分析動保法，動保法真的非常熱門，短短幾年其實已經修到十二次了，這幾年不斷一直在討論虐待動物要加重罰則，應該要用刑法處理，也因為這樣社會輿論的關係，所以其實很多相關法的學者也有關注到這個議題。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "有幾篇研究報告，當然觀點也是多元的，但是有一些比較極端的觀點特別提出，並不是說這一個部分的觀點的聲量最大，並不代表這樣的意見，而是這一類的觀點也是存在的，另外一塊一直被認為是要變成刑事去處罰，從法的學者觀點來看，不應該把它放到刑法，從法律學的觀點也有人提出這樣的建議，因此我們才會提出這一篇報告出來讓大家知道，其實並不是所有的人都認為要重罰，這個是唯一的手段，在處理動物虐待議題的時候，重罰並不是最重要或者是唯一的手段。包括台大法律系的老師也長期關注動保議題，他們也認為罰其實是最後的手段，前端公民社會素質跟對這一個議題整體公民概念的養成，這一件事如果不在臺灣紮根的話，只是不斷訴求重罰，也會有這樣的疑慮在，只訴求重罰，真的可以達到大家希望看到不要再虐待動物這一件事嗎？這樣的效果，大家也會提出疑問。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "從法律的部分，農委會提供法律的東西，我稍微看過，這邊跟大家分享一下，動物保護法要保護的法益為何，有一個論述是如同毀壞實體感情法益，另外一篇文章提到兩個角度，也就是保護野生動物是生態環境的利益，因為著重是在保育，而不是野生動物不要讓他感受不好。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一個是非屬保育動物的一般動物，有可能可以援引良善人格養成說，這個其實跟提案人提的是比較類似的，因為提到虐待動物的人是心理有疾病，他虐待動物之後就虐待人，這樣的說法其實是援引良善人格養成說。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這樣就會變成難以將所有生物都平等視之，大家開始吵，手一放，是不是可以虐待？或者是其他的各種動物，像小時候大家都很喜歡玩螞蟻窩，可以嗎？貓狗其實都有兩派不同的做法，一個是動物福利論、一個是動物權利論，有一些事是不能做，動物福利論比較從效益主義來出發，當你在利用動物的時候，盡可能減少動物的傷害跟痛苦，並不是什麼都不能做；還有人提出動物爭議論，我還沒有仔細閱讀，先放著。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "要考慮法制度，臺灣走的是羅馬法，羅馬法分成人和物，後者從屬於財產權，其實是毀壞別人的財產，但是毀壞動物是虐待自己的財產，從屬於動物是不屬於任何人，因此衍生不同法益的論述。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "原來是人跟物，但是我們臺灣法律滿常參考德國，但是德國動保法是動物可以感受痛苦的生物，人類對動物負有保護生命及健全存在的責任，是把人個動物切開，但是動物是從動物切出來，並不是從人切出來的，因此開創了人、動物、物的三分法，這個是一種建議。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "是不是跟法有一些觀點？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對，應該是。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "農委會提供的文章，也就是動物當代思潮讀書會的困境當中，有提到因為動保法及野生動物保育法，雖然保護的是動物，但是很不容易，裡面又有很多法律，一年修十二次，大家一直很關心修它，大家看到修起來的條文很詭異了，所有動保跟野保一次攤開，社群及相關的單位一次檢討一次。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其中非常重要的一件事是，我們一定要無意傷害動物與有意虐待動物的差別，有的人沒有相應的教育，可能知道會痛苦跟受傷，從以前到現在都是這樣子，有人知道這樣的動物會受傷、痛苦，但是還可以對他，這兩個是有差異的，法條說比較難以分出這樣的差異。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實有，我們這一次修法就特別處理這一個議題，其實在動保法第25條、第30條、第30條之1，其實都有類似的，按照動保法現在的邏輯是分成三個層次，第一個是故意，第二個是虐待動物致死重傷或者是肢體殘缺，這個是最高等級的，就會採刑法一年以上有期徒刑，也就是最高裁罰的強度。接著是故意去虐待動物，但是沒有造成嚴重傷殘及計算，你存在故意、動物受傷，但是沒有達到重傷及死亡的程度。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "同時有一個狀態是，我不是故意的，我可能是疏失，又或者是個人意外的行為，我導致動物死亡了，也就是非故意，但是導致重傷死亡，跟故意未導致重傷死亡是擺在同一個裁罰的強度，這個是第二層。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "最後一層是我是疏失了，並沒有任何故意，我不是故意做這一件事，但是確實也導致動物受傷了，但是受傷的程度還沒有到重傷的程度時，這個就是在我們現在動保法會裁處的第三個強度，因此已經分成三個層次了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以我們稍微區分一下，也就是故意、虐待動物致死或肢體殘缺。第二個是故意虐待動物，但仍未造成嚴重傷殘。第三個是疏失導致動物死亡或重傷。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家知道如何讓違法的人能確實付出代價，還有跟執行面的蒐證不足是有關係的，蒐證不足一樣沒有辦法定罪，因此這邊的解法是鼓勵民眾關心檢舉，提供事證，這個是發現虐待動物案件，千萬不要破壞現場，通知動保處與警察來處理，困境在於舉證困難，難以舉證犯罪動機。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有一個小建議，是不是可以提供動物保護法相關法條的法律案件？提供法律要件的原因是，大家討論到這一件事的時候，就會討論到檢察官如何認定是有罪或者是沒有罪，其實都是在法律要件的部分，我不知道畜牧處到時能不能幫忙分享？也就是所謂重傷如何認定，肢體殘缺是如何認定，故意跟無故意是怎麼認定？又或者是法務部到時可以幫忙分享，因為我知道故意跟非故意是有一些特定的法律要件，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "我們有建議當天會議時，會邀請動物法律系張錕盛老師，因為他一直都是協助動物保護訓練檢查員的老師，他在案件調查、後端裁處，所謂的故意、非故意及哪一些事證是這一個案件成立的要件，其實就是現在講的概念，透過行政法其他經驗上的瞭解，在實際運作上跟我們很多動保檢查員的溝通上有一些脈絡，我是覺得可以提供比較明確的輪廓。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們已經有列在這個地方了，還會再過一次利害關係人。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果沒有問題的話，我們就往下走到執行面的問題，除了剛才提到動保案件蒐證不足，還有一個想法裁罰的金額無法支付受傷貓狗的治療費用，我想這個沒有辦法，一個是裁罰、行政法，一個是刑法的罰金，行政法是不是可以拿來作為貓狗治療基金？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實本身對於這一句話，我認為在提案的時候就有矛盾，因為一直強調的是，動物沒有受傷狀況，這邊又突然提到行政法人必須支付動物相關的醫療費用，如果動物外觀上根本就沒有什麼嚴重的傷害，其實不會很有所謂後端很多的醫療需求，所以這一個部分也必須再進一步釐清，其實動物已經受虐、有傷害的程度，就已經進入所謂重傷之類的狀態，其實跟他所訴求的要再提高罰則樣態的類型到底是哪一類是有待釐清。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我從他的角度嘗試問，他想提的問題是，當造成的貓狗有傷害的時候，需要有治療費用，這個治療費用，政府會幫忙出嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一個層次是，這個錢是不是政府出？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第二個層次是，這個政府出的錢是不是從裁罰的金額來的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我覺得是不是從裁罰金額來，我覺得這個地方有一些東西是需要釐清的，這個是第一件事；第二個層次是目前的受害動物，政府是否有投入資源給受害動物協助？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "從實務經驗上來講，我從提案人討論的經驗，有一點是類似參與動物案件救援的角色，有一點是類似這樣的志工，他們可能有一個經驗，當下看到動物受傷很心急，因此就自費，然後就變成我自費去負擔他還來不及去通報行政機關，自己就送醫院了，所以這一端就認為我自己又要負擔這一些動物後續醫療的支出是不公平的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "我覺得這個在實務上如果看到相關案件通報的時機點在行政機關儘快介入的話，這一些動物會進到行政機關，我們後續會有醫療處置，這當然都要跟著進入，不會變成這些志工或者是檢舉者要負擔這一個部分的成本，實務上是有這樣的狀況存在。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實縣市政府都有提供所謂動物急難救援，包括台北市是1999通報這邊有動物受傷，其實他們就會派人過去把動物接回來，由行政部門相關的醫療獸醫師去做進一步動物的處置，動物本身的狀況已經非常不好的時候，我們就會以人道的觀點，其實就是應該要做緊急人道安樂死的，也就是儘快解除痛苦。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "如果動物本身的狀況是適當醫療就可以復原，當然就是在所謂獸醫體系進一步相關的醫治。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "因此當然會產生醫療的成本，而這一個部分的成本現在是由行政機關本身的公務預算在支持。因為案件調查處理完，包含整個行政裁罰跟收到他的罰金，這整個流程，其實相對是比較長的，你的動物救援成本投入是在前端就要去做的，沒有辦法等這一件事成立，概念是不是以後追溯，把錢拿來投入這一個部分，可能在行政作業上有沒有辦法達到這樣的效用，也是我們在實務上有一些疑問。包括過去很多宰殺犬貓的案件，可能罰了100萬好了，但是事實上透過行政執行署強制執行也是收不回來的，因為這一些人本身的狀況可能是經濟狀況非常不好，也不會有什麼財產讓你扣押，而你真的可以拿到這一些錢回來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "一個是循行政機關的流程，政府會受到治療費用、政府有提供動物急難救援機制、若傷害過於嚴重，可能緊急進行安樂死來減少痛苦，傷害若不嚴重則會由行政機關或公務預算支持，當然事後跟當事人求償是一個問題，有時其實很多費用強制執行無法取得，因為當事人真的不一定有錢，真的是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下的資訊也有結構性的問題，我們把加重罰則分成法規與執行面，可是會發現執行面的東西，不一定是在動物保護法加重罰則的脈絡下，可能是跟動物保護法的平行解，像動物保護法可能在回應動物案件層出不窮比較是事情發生後續收拾的方式。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "剛剛也有提到，像事前的預防很重要，所以會不會對應到核心問題的另外一種解法，跟動物保護法加重罰則是平行的，像當事人強制心理治療不會隸屬於加重罰則的脈絡，也就是後面那幾個，也就是當事人心理治療跟推動生命教育跟動物保護法是不是平行的解法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "加重治療是多一個面向，而且對精神病的心理治療是刑期服滿之後還要做心理治療。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "是一種罰則並不是加重罰則，是選項。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "而是要關五年或者是心理治療，並不是，而是去精神病然後再去心理治療。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以你說是加重的選擇，然後再拉掉？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們覺得是執行的一個層面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "因為黃色是分種類，並不是解法，但是我覺得可以不用硬分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "確實是加重罰則的一種，然後執行面還是會有問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果把執行面拿掉的話，就會變成這三個往下連，連得都是粉紅色的邏輯。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "就把當事人強制心理治療拉到法規面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "動物保護法分……" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "如果加重面向的話有兩個面向要考慮，第一個是要加重什麼、第二個是現有法規執行面有什麼問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "看到起來對當事人強制心理治療不會是執行，而是法規的內容。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "所以我說把它移過去。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果把罰則視為一個解法的話，遇到的問題，通常會直接用紅色去表示，不會說貼一個執行面，然後再加紅色，我是在講執行面的這一卡是不是要拿掉，因為你說遇到的問題都是執行面的問題。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "不見得。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這有一點複雜，因為對當事人強制心理治療，提到的問題其實有一點橫跨在執行與法規的問題，所以其實是一個灰色地帶，你說其他的地方有沒有黑色地帶，其實都有一些，像循著機關流程，治療費用是不是從罰金出來的這一塊是一個可以澄清的點，而這個點其實是法規的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "據我所知，行政執行署執行了之後就進國庫，並不是被拿去專款專用。但是行政罰是不是？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "即使是縣市政府收到裁罰，並不會有執行動物法專門的帳號。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以不管怎麼樣，也就是「裁罰金額不管是罰金或是行政罰，都是進入政府的大水庫，而無法專款專用」，這樣的說法可以嗎？因為我不知道縣庫跟國庫合起來是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "先不要分法規跟執行面，因為感覺是議題兩面的東西，你要怎麼解釋都可以，放在這裡反而會讓人家很混淆，所以我們先拿掉，等到下面的東西都長完之後，再來確認是不是要分類，這樣會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們繼續看下去，裁罰的金額無法支付受傷貓狗的治療費用已經處理完了。接著是虐待傷害動物的程度難以認定，有人提到的一件事第一個是動保法裡面的規定，有些規定恐怕連飼主都無法做到，比如我們規範心理虐待也算一種虐待的話，有些動物的單獨拘禁可能是一種虐待，很多飼主都直接被抓去關了，這樣子其實不太對，家裡養一隻狗，出門的時候……" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "你剛剛講的這一件事已經發生了？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前沒有。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "如果還沒發生的話，為何要拿出來討論？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為有一些加重罰則的說法是希望把心理的虐待也放到更生物虐待一樣。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "可是你放在這裡的話，感覺它已經變成事實了。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我覺得應該回到虐待認知不同，你的脈絡應該是在虐待認知不同，但是我覺得虐待認知不同的脈絡應該要拉上去，跟動物案件是同一個等級。我們的核心問題有虐待動物案件本身層出不窮的問題及對於認知不同的問題，他們是平行的。是不是就把它拉上去？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "你剛剛講的東西就會在虐待認知不同的這一個脈絡下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個描述我記得是在農委會當中，也就是連飼主都無法做到，以及政府執法人力不足，案件難以有效查處。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "動保法的規定有具體狀況嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "因為我們的動保法真的修得太為頻繁了，今年剛修了，然後半年之內同一條又再修一次，然後在行政執行上，其實一般民眾前一個版本還不知道的時候，又跳到下一個版本，等到在行政調查的時候，前一個版本的要件還不清楚的時候，又跳到下一個版本，在這樣法律相對不穩定的情況之下，其實實務執行上，我們何必一直追趕呢？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「修法過於頻繁，民眾與政府難以跟上修法的認知」？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "一個是「政府執法人力不足，案件可以再提供」？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "對。106年最新的統計數字，我印象當中，我們的動保員每一年一個人應該要負擔的案件數量達到一千四百多件，案件是多或者是少，會回到大家對於每一個案件都要向一個刑事案件去調查、偵查及發現的話，其實真的沒有辦法有效去處理每一個案件。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我記得你們有提供一個文件是要提供增加人力。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "從兩個面向來講，實務上面臨的兩個困境是，基層所有的動保員，現在平均一半以上都是新任公務人員不到半年的，都是剛考上高考就被擺到這個位置，擺到這個位置只要有機會就馬上調動，我們人員的異動是非常頻繁的，專業性的建立就是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "一個就是動保案件的複雜程度，永遠都擺新人，新人沒有經驗，他們又要調查相對複雜的案件，所以相對的工作壓力，至少就我們的動保履歷跟畜牧、獸醫領域來講，這一個業務直接講變成是大家最不願意去的，可是他們的薪資水準大家都是一樣的，同樣都是七職等的畜牧獸醫，我做不用加班、調查案件、發生爭執及處理高壓的狀態，我就做專業的獸醫狀態，我就做打針、吃藥就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "因此看調查報告就看得出來人員的異動性為何如此高，因為案件多、專業度又跟不上，因此在這一個部分，其實那一年的調查報告，我們希望如果沒有辦法減少你的案量，你的工作量是多的，你的pay是不是相對可以增加？那個是上一份調查報告的目的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "107年就跟行政院提四年的中綱計畫，從基本人力的架構上是不是有辦法增加所謂的人力，這一些案件處理是可以到位，也就是兩個方式的制度性去改善這個困境，這都是現在進行式。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "專案的名稱可以提供嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "108年至110年度推動友善動物保護計畫。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我想請問一下，虐待動物傷害難以認定為何放在「虐待認知不同」的下面？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為有傷、沒傷大家認知不同，虐待傷害難以認定。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有傷、沒傷跟傷害程度是兩件不同的事情，你寫「傷害的程度難以認定」是你已經認定有傷，只是程度不同，所以跟有傷、沒傷的脈絡……所以我才會覺得應該放在「動物保護法加重罰則」，是不是因為傷的程度難以認定，所以罰則要怎麼罰，很難認定。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實有傷、沒傷牽涉到的是左邊，剛才提到的這三個層次到底是屬於哪一個層次，就所知是這樣，可是這個地方……還是要放在這個地方的下面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以證據要跟著論述走。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個地方是跟著前面的部分，也就是要動保法這個地方要全面檢討，要區分有益、無益傷害動物的差別，然後這個地方再到剛才的這裡。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "全面檢討的原因是有傷、沒傷難以認定，所以全面檢討是一個解法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "全面檢討的原因是各個法條已經很不符合，因為一直亂修的關係。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "但是這一件事跟「虐待認知不同」的關係是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個法條平衡的問題是什麼？這個是我的想法。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "應該是這個問題在先，才會用法去解決？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個好像不是法的問題，而是法執行的問題。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "所有的行政機關要做怎麼樣的行政行為，我們被要求的是一定要有事證，可是一般民眾看待這一件事的認知，他們不見得那麼樣有行政機關在實質上框架的要求，他們比較屬於個人主觀的，可能看到動物被打了，就會覺得動物被虐待了。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "但是就我們來講，我們的判定不能知道說動物被打了，然後就被虐待，那個差異只是在對這一件事的立場不一樣，行政機關要執行是一定要有具體的，不能憑感覺，但是民眾看待這一件事往往都是憑感覺。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以剛剛的問題還沒有被解決，為什麼放在這個地方？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我不確定。這個是好問題，那我們要放在哪裡比較好？我不確定，還是我們之後再來看。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果我們不知道怎麼放在哪裡，代表我們對這一件事的思考脈絡清楚，因此才會不知道對到哪裡，因此我們還要釐清一下到底虐待傷害動物程度難以認定是在哪一個討論的脈絡裡。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "剛剛提到應該是動物保護案件的蒐證不足，因為民眾自己覺得夠了，但是官方覺得不夠。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這兩個事情有一點關係、也有一點沒有關係，有可能蒐證不足而難以認定，但是也有可能是蒐證到也難以認定，所以難以認定到底是怎麼造成的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "難以認定是客觀上沒有達到，但是主觀上覺得有。但是有時是客觀問題、有時是主觀的問題。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "難以認定是判斷的標準不一致，我覺得已經是了，但是我們覺得真的還不到這樣的程度。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以我們要改它的用語嗎？也就是傷害動物難以判定，怎麼樣的論述才是比較精準的？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "是「標準不一致」嗎？還是？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不太確定怎麼弄。我大概可以感覺出來，這跟蒐證不足可能是有一點關聯的，我可以確定這個是加重罰則，也就是動物保護法執行上的論點，也就是加重罰則，確實有一點距離，但是要求加重罰則，但是罰不到的時候，也是因為這個結論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "但是罰不罰得到跟加重罰則有關係嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "你加重了又罰不到。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "不會因為你加重罰不到，是本來就罰不到，不會因為要加重才罰不到。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以不是加重的問題，而是本來罰則就有問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "應該是說本來執行上就有一些跟民間有出入的地方。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我的意思是不會再加重脈絡，而是罰則本身的限制，不會因為要加重才有這個限制，是要罰都會遇到問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是。或者其實蒐證不足，又或者是實務條文，這其實也都是目前的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以上位可能要另外開一張，也就是本身罰則的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以它會適用到加重罰則也有問題，因為其實是其中的一種。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "你罰都會有問題，所以加重也會有問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "本來就罰不到，加重不到一百年還是罰不到。不會因為加重，而涵蓋的範圍就變大，所以本來涵蓋不到，或者是他認為涵蓋不到的，不管怎麼樣都很大。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "還是你要說這個地方動物保護法加重罰則改成「現有動物保護法有問題」，這個是他們的認知有問題，問題是什麼？問題是裁罰金額無法支付費用，這個地方可能也是有一些東西，然後我們接下來才會是加重罰則。（調整心智圖）" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "加重罰則的最主要論述是罰錢不夠，然後沒有嚇阻力，他認為有一個嚇阻力不足的問題，因此才會加重罰則。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "但是嚇阻力不足的問題，其實又跟動保案件蒐證不足的原因有關，其實動保案件蒐證不足其實跟虐待案件有關係。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家都可以理解現在的調整嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "要不要重新go through？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "動物罰責是法律條文與實務效果有很大的差異，目前動物保護案件的蒐證不足，以及虐待傷害動物的程度難以判定，當然動物保護的案件蒐證不足，其實也一定程度導致虐待傷害動物的程度難以判定問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，提案人認為裁罰的金額無法支付貓、狗治療的費用及其嚇阻力是不足，因為這兩個原因，所以他認為要加重罰則。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "嚇阻力不足的問題，其實也是因為動保案件不一定是因為你罰則要加重才會有嚇阻力，有可能是讓動保案件的蒐證更完整，更容易罰到傷害的人，其實他的嚇阻力是會夠的。這樣不知道大家覺得ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "嚇阻力不足，箭頭畫到蒐證不足，嚇阻力不足是蒐證不足的原因？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為覺得罰不到，一個是罰不重。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "所以箭頭畫過去是有關聯，或者是他的原因？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "他認為嚇阻力不足，但是事實上有一個原因。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "蒐證不足而造成嚇阻力不足。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "應該是嚇阻力不足，而造成動物案件蒐證不足，如果箭頭是這樣指的話。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "對，所以是不是應該要倒過來？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "「蒐證不足」是指「蒐證能力不足」？是包含很多種樣態。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這部分有更多的資訊嗎？這一張卡怎麼出來的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "該罰的人沒有罰到，如果我沒有記錯的話，好像是提案的訪談裡面有提到。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "該罰沒有罰到是蒐證的結果，但是蒐證不足是如何造成的？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "造成的原因跟虐待動物傷害這個其實有一點類似，也就是政府人力不足。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "但是這也是蒐證不足或者是不易？因為很多實務上的狀況，是到了現場的狀況，人、狗及貓都不在。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "是不是難以判定才是處罰的原因？也就是不易處罰的原因？因為蒐證不足而造成難以判定，難以判定才造成嚇阻力不足。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "意思是因果關係。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "如果沒有蒐證不足，就不會造成這個情況。蒐證可能不易，但是另外一個是蒐證都有了，大家標準訂得不好，所以判斷本身很難做。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "或者是沒有標準。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "標準不一樣，是不是就回到認知不同？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "對，認知不同，所以民眾才會覺得行政上有落差。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝大家一起挑戰這一張心智圖。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "虐待認知不同應該是蒐證問題不易的緣起。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "應該是判斷不易的問題。就是難以判斷的原因之一是認知不同，另外一個原因是蒐證不易。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "很多時候這個提出的解法，下面有問題，然後再回推真正的問題，然後再提新的解法，是因為這個原因而導致這個問題，箭頭方向其實不一定是一致的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們就是按照事實怎麼樣去畫，具體哪裡不一致？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "虐待動物層出不窮的原因是在這裡……" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這邊會這樣寫，因為藍色是事實的意思，我們會挑戰每一張寫出來的東西背後是不是有事實的依據，所以虐待動物案件層出不窮，可能因為從這邊來，所以剛剛講這個箭頭，我可以理解為何想說箭頭要往另外一個方向畫，但是這邊的邏輯是事實佐證，因此才會連出來。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "意思是案件層出不窮的問題點可以去看這邊的現象，這邊的箭頭不是因果關係，應該是這樣說，但是大家是不是能理解？" }, { "speaker": "蔡玉琪", "speech": "我問一下這個是不是也有一些關係，是不是法律條文這樣做，然後是沒有辦法實際執行的意思？或者現在的法律條文就不夠重？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這個沒有要質疑法律的問題，法律這樣定，但是實務做就是會有這樣的落差。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們回去辯論一下。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "應該要在這邊辯論。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "因為時間上的關係，我們應該先處理其他的部分，至於結構上邏輯不通順的地方，我們之後再處理。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果要針對細碎的內容，其實也可以非同步的方式調。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我覺得主要是先確定一下大家對於每一張便利貼的認知是不是一樣，基本上我們是根據農委會的議題分析表長出這一張心智圖。至於每一張大家認知都一樣的話，結構再慢慢調整，我覺得是這樣，不然我覺得時間會來不及，我們可能要採用一些比較有效率的做法，比如想要得到的結果先拿到，這一些需要長時間討論的，再用剩下的時間討論，我的建議是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們快先把幾個小細節確認，大概沒有多少。第一個是對當事人強制心理治療的部分，這個是衛福部的觀點，剛剛已經唸過了，我這邊先掠過。接著是推動生命教育的地方，動物城鄉議題差距大，民眾對待動物觀點有極大不同，需要發展更有系統性，針對不同溝通型態及族群的生命教育機關，但是因為資源不足，只能點狀、零散地進行盤點，無法全面，這是農委會這邊提供的資料。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "推動生命教育是解法嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "這個現象連下來，一個是法規不足、一個是法規有問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "就要連到下面，也就是推動動物生命教育。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "也就是現有的動物保護法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊也要改一下。" }, { "speaker": "蔡玉琪", "speech": "應該可以歸類在認知不足的項下。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "不太一樣，民眾根本不想保護動物，右邊是有一些事情，讓民眾誤以為案件越來越多。不是檢舉案件增加嗎？最右邊是假的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對。其實是在這一篇文章有提到的，有提到一些媒體每次報導，好像也是你們建議的一篇文章，也就是媒體的報導應該要多報導。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們儘快處理細節，有關於政府單位的部分，農委會是畜牧處，你們是動物保法的主管單位，目前有支持論點嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "是直接針對他的提案同意或者是不同意嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "建議從基本的生命教育向下紮根。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "農委會的其他單位負責這一件事嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是衛福部、內政部，衛福部就是警政署，法務部的部分是檢察司，角色應該是偵辦動保案件，有立場嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蔡玉琪", "speech": "建議不要修。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "縣市政府我們再問好了，不過應該是動保處。接著是我們建議邀請相關團體人士，第一個是農委會這邊建議的張錕盛老師，有幾位是有詢問社群的朋友所提供的，動物保護團體，我們不確定提案是誰，但是看起來這個提案確實有個團體在網路上呼籲，聽說帶頭的人是一個叫做黎安娜的動物保護志工，也許我們可以邀請他，因為他是社群的意見領袖，可能是一個可以邀請的對象。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "再者是一些老師的部分，一個是台大法律系的林老師，因為他那一篇文章確實講滿多有關於動物保護法的問題，看起來是可以推薦邀請。接著是葉力森，還有一個是台大獸醫的黃威翔，因為他在座談會有提到一些東西，因為他是動物法益專家，他應該可以提供蒐證上的一些問題，接著就看綠黨潘翰聲、吳宗憲老師及曾春僑副教授，吳宗憲老師之前有邀請過，看起來他也是滿熟這個議題的人，因為他也在講桌上有說過話，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著小建議就看農委會覺得怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "教育部呢？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "生命教育嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "對，學齡的兒童、青少年，大部分的時間都是在學校。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "到時再看教育部要找誰，我們到時再談。如果這樣ok的話，我們再來有幾個小方向。我個人盤點以後，我自己覺得有幾個方向是當天可以提的，第一個是動保案件的蒐證該怎麼樣加強，這個是可以讓社群跟大家一起討論的問題，如果有第一線的實務者，也許是滿不錯的方式。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "動保案件跟受害動物如何保障，可以讓大家發想，如果政府已經有投入資源了，覺得沒有什麼好討論，也許當天進行澄清。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一個層次是，人民對於動物保護生命教育的認知不太一樣。上次跟農委會的案子是對於淺山居進行動物生命教育。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "這個是不是扯遠了？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "你覺得扯遠喔？好。那寫「如何推動生命教育」。如果這幾個發想方向大家覺得ok的話，也許可以朝這個方向發想。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們再回來看結構。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有一張「民眾與政府認知不同」，到底是哪一張的原因？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這有好幾個層次，民眾跟民眾間對於動物保護認知不一樣；第二，動保案件發生後，民眾跟政府對於證據保存、傷害虐待認定的認知不一樣，這個是另外一個不一樣的認知不同。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "會造成蒐證不易嗎？或者是難以認定？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為大家以為我拍照就可以了，然後就把動物送醫，但是動保員沒有蒐證及到場，因此認為不能採用。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一，虐待、傷害動物程度難以判定，可能以為不是在虐待，而是在傷害動物。再者是，動保志工覺得有虐待動物了，但是從證據看起來又沒有。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "你覺得證據是這樣子嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "你覺得是民眾與政府對蒐證的不同，另外一個是民眾之間對於虐待的認知不同。動保蒐證不易是民眾對於認知不同以外，還有一個是難以處理。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "你會發現很多討論是現在法遇到的一些問題，但是如果回到核心的問題，也就是虐待動物案件層出不窮，是不是可以直接回答上面的問題，我們應該要花更多的時間在上面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我的意思是，現在的法要修是一個方向，但是我們可以接受虐待動物案件層出不窮就是用法去解決，如果不是只有這個面向的話，是不是要花一樣的比重去討論生命教育，因為這樣看起來其實討論的份量在生命教育很少，協作會議其實是希望可以用更多元的角度來看這個議題，並不是受到某一種侷限跟框架，又或者是偏誤來討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "其實，心智圖的展現可以某種程度上很實際展現著重的點在哪裡，目前看到著重點不是平衡。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "可能是反映現況，民眾覺得法罰不夠重。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這個回歸到注意力放在上面，是跟媒體有關係，所以是一個生態的問題，但是我們要不被生態所左右，變成我們現在要討論注意力放在這邊，這個是可以控制的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果沒有先讓他打過循環，從那個循環拖出來，直接說沒有產生生命教育。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我只是說其他的比重要一樣，其他的也要，我並沒有說這一串不討論。甚至是其他的可能性，不然會一直侷限於現在的迴圈，到底真正的問題有沒有被回答也不知道，我們可以保證這個法修完，下面的問題都解決了，動物案件問題就不會再發生。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是有一些執行的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以這邊顯示有人執行是有問題的，但是我們要做的是解決問題。如果把比重放在現有制度的話，而忽略掉原本的問題要被解決，重心放的地方是不是有一點錯誤？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個從他們提供推動生命教育重點摘除，我可以慢慢摘。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "最後一個問題是如何有效解決虐待動物層出不窮的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "就是蒐證的問題要解決。尤其這一次要找動保志工來找跟動保處對話。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果目前的脈絡從整個架構來看是可以看到兩個面向，一個是預防、一個是後續的處理，預防的脈絡是推生命教育的點，後續的是法律修法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "還有執行的改善？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可能要跳脫一定要修法的邏輯，現在是一直修法，法務部、農委會都困擾，執行的改善，其實中間一大塊都是討論執行的改善。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這個是我們建構出來的脈絡，如果脈絡從執行面去解的話，有可能可以解決最上面的問題？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "可以有一定幅度的改善，現在的法至少要先有一定的落實度，並不是現在的法都不處理，但是都沒有處理，這樣不會產生實際的效果。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "我們現在是不是誤以為事情變嚴重了，現在沒得救了，未來如何防止這一件事？現在必須要保留什麼證據或者是數據，又或者是用什麼樣的方式去觀察這一件事到底改善了沒。如果沒有用這樣的方法，要我們一直加強認為我們沒有改善的就認為沒有改善，有改善的也直覺認為有改善，並沒有人可以拿出客觀的數據。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "農委會有相關的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "這一件事是兩難，民眾越關心就是越檢舉，如果以行政機關來講，我們去看這個數字，我可以用一個數字是民眾檢舉一百件，其實真正成案當中只有1％，那個成案比率越來越低，是不是表示案件變少？可是民眾可能會覺得政府在吃案，我們有這樣的疑慮在，當然我們各種數字都可以拿得出來，可是大家看數字的時候，跟解讀的方式會不一樣，導致衍生出另外一個問題，所以我們會非常謹慎使用。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "國際上具有公信力指標的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "這一個案件本身的關注點是在所謂的動物虐待案件，其實有一點類似人的命案之類的觀點，並不是實質上普遍性國家對待動物的水準，那又是另外一件事。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "可是因為在提案的時候，證據就是拿哪幾個事件，因為民眾一定很容易是這樣子的，一般民眾是這樣子看事情，沒有辦法不讓他們變成不這樣看事情。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "如果有一個比較客觀的依據，其實在臺灣虐待動物的比率已經降低了，跟過去幾年比起來已經降低了，你會覺得很多是因為媒體報得多或者是人家檢舉得多，前面你要先講一個客觀的算法，也就是比率降低了，但是這個很難。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我們分享過去的案例，有一個人提了一個案子，有關於酒駕、性侵及兒虐都要鞭刑的例子，後來我們針對酒駕去作探討，但是這個時候其實大家也覺得酒駕最近越來越嚴重，幾乎新聞都可以看到兩件以上，但是實際上根據他們的統計資訊，其實酒駕的量是有在減少。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "當然我們會擔心民眾會不會採取一個比較不相信政府的態度，去認定你就是有浮報或者是少報之類的，但是實際上其實我們遇到的經驗是，除非那個團體是具有特殊目的性來跟你抗爭的，不然基本上都會相信你的數據。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "當然我們也是要做到數據具有公信力的，比如我們之前也遇過一個案件，他提出來的數據，你看這個數據是這樣子，結果那個數據背後測試的動物其實是老鼠，並不是人類之類的狀況都有發生過，只要我們可以把那個數據說明到我們是怎麼蒐集的，我們得到的結果怎麼樣，基本上民眾不會太去挑戰，除非是有目的而來的，今天就是會來挑戰你的那就沒有辦法，你講什麼話都會被挑戰，這個我們也是有遇過的；連這一場會議的代表性、舉辦目的、會議資料什麼時候給都可以挑戰，所以我覺得那一些資料還是可以提供讓民眾先看，至於那一些資料要如何被解讀，真的只能是這樣子，所以可能還是需要麻煩提供一下。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實這幾年一直針對案件……我們今年要再做一個新的系統，縣市政府從受理、報案到調查過程、結案處理的方式，都是變成一個個案流程紀錄，我們以後才可以去進一步分析統計今年進來多少案，多少的案件其實是真的沒有查到證據的，多少的案件有查到證據可以被裁罰、多少案件是怎麼樣去處理的，這一方面的統計系統我們正在做，可是當然過去的歷史資料，所有的個案都是在每一個縣市政府當中，也就是類似紙本的東西，要再花很多時間，讓他變成系統處理，那真的不是姑且業務的當務之急，可以在未來各類政府實質操作的狀況都可以被看見，每一個案件真的做了什麼事都可以很清楚地讓民眾知道，這也是我們今年正在做的事。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "瞭解。目前要一些基本的數據，那個沒有那麼精準？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "對，我們過去的方式是每一個月會告訴我們說他們受理多少的解決案件，最後就是有多少案件是被做行政處分。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "目前掌握到的是一個統計數字，也就是多少案或怎麼樣，並沒有實質的內容。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以剛剛有把一些案子的重點、方向打一些星號在心智圖上，這有三個重要的主軸，一個是透過現有法律執行的一些問題去解決，另外一個是針對預防的部分，也就是推動動物生命教育可以這麼做，第三個比較是怎麼樣後續蒐集資料，然後幫助大家對這一件事的認知，可以是比較依據實際上的數據與案例，看起來這個議題應該就分這三個面向。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我把動物保障的東西先拿掉好了。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以剛剛過程中的梳理對於我們的討論很重要，因為這個就會定調我們對於這一件事的認知是否相同，像我們講一句話或者是放一個資料，其實我們不知道每一個人對這一筆資料的脈絡是什麼，所以我們才會這麼在意箭頭是不是要拿，大家是不是認為這樣都是正確的，把大家認知的脈絡都是在同樣的基礎上，透過這樣的過程中，我們也可以漸漸地去找出我們可以聚焦的方向有哪幾個，因此今天找出這三個。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們通常都會建議到時因為協作會議當天主辦機關會大概有50分鐘的時間來說明這一個議題，我們就可以用這樣的方式去說明，會更加地有脈絡及生動，這樣也比較可以幫助大家理解。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以做的這個心智圖是幫助大家在做簡報前的沙推，大家可以依照今天討論的結果、逐字稿、心智度盤點出來的結果來想簡報的架構，因為背後的邏輯是依據原本的提案、農委會對於這一個議題的整理，再到今天的對焦，所以脈絡其實依循著原本議題討論的方向，有顧到提案人方、也顧到農委會對議題的認知，然後我們最後再整理。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "不知道以今天討論的狀況，對於農委會之後再做簡報的部分，有沒有哪一些事情再確認？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這一案其實滿抱歉，因為我們兩案在跑，所以我花的時間沒有很多，後續我可能會稍微訪談一下老師，也會訪談一下張老師、林老師，黎領袖如果可以的話，我想辦法借助看看，黃威翔有可能的話，我去訪談一下，因為他是法律專家。當然，有可能張老師可以涵蓋這一個部分，我們就不用訪談。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "訪談的時間是11月初的時候，因為11月初那個時候會有好幾個案子，跑完以後再來訪談，我們這一個案子是在12月底，在11月中會請大家幫忙確認手冊的部分。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我有一個建議，訪談的時候，是不是看農委會的同仁是不是一起？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "訪談是幫助我們瞭解，因為這個是我們依據目前看到的資料跟認知去盤點出來的脈絡，但是我們會希望這一個脈絡可以包含到不同面向與角度，所以才會希望透過訪談，讓這整個結構再更加豐富，目的是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "「一起」大概是同一個時間拿起電話而已，因為我們之前的做法是，大家可能開多方通話，就線上一起聽、一起問問題及討論，如果想說實體碰面會比較好的話，也是可以，怕大家公務繁忙就比較難排時間。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "聽起來出席人員的部分還需要，今天討論滿完整，是不是會後用電子郵件的形式跟大家說，這個案子出席的行政機關有哪一些，剛剛雨蒼有提了一些學者，這一些學者是不是在訪談的時候也順便問一下，如果願意的話，也一起來出席這一場會議。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為這個案子是網路提案，所以會有提案人及附議人，提案人應該已經確定12月21日會出席，附議人的部分是透過「Join」平台在網路上公開詢問，原則上是5位，如果報名的狀況非常踴躍，我們再來討論怎麼樣處理超過的部分。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "不過過去的經驗通常不會太多，網路報名的人數過去最多是8人，所以5個人的名額通常是夠用的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著是團體的部分，像有一些動保團體代表，也列一個名單確認能不能邀請他們。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著，我剛剛提類型的人員確定之後，我們就要問他們是不是要在會議中簡報，因為主管機關簡報是因為對於這一個案件瞭解的帳戶，民眾的簡報最常見的狀況是提案人、附議人都有一些想法，也就是想要說明在網路上說明這一件事，因此我們會給他時間簡報。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，有一些與會者，像NGO或者是誰，也許他也有一些想法想要表達簡報，簡報時間的長短，原則上是主辦機關最長，接著是提案人，其他非提案人的同仁如果想要簡報的話，我們會給他比較短的時間，大概是5分鐘。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著，這個案子在動保議題於網路上很受關注，所以我會很直接問大家有沒有希望直播，要不要直播的這一件事，我們用兩個方式來確認，第一個是我們先問提案人的意願，如果提案人說要直播的話，我們可能在會前用email的形式，比如與會三十個人的email，就是用email的形式問所有的人：「這個案子提案人想要直播，你們有沒有反對意見，如果沒有反對意見就直播。」不然依提案人對於這一個方面不置可否或者是沒什麼想法，會一直留到開會當天，開會當天早上我們開場的時候，我們就會問在場的人說：「今天會議有三、四十個人在場，但是網路上有五千個人的關係，要不要直播？」如果有任何一個人提出要直播，我就會問有沒有人反對，但是如果有任何一個人反對的話，我們就不直播。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著是會議場地的部分，因為這一次場地預定是在農委會的會議室，所以可能要安排一小段的時間，去農委會的會議是場勘，這個部分再安排，我們會帶相關的技術同仁過去。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "開會通知的部分，因為涉及到民眾及網路上的網友，所以我會建議，甚至會前兩個禮拜就發，當然發開會通知的時候，不見得所有的資料都齊全，比如雨蒼那邊的議題手冊還沒有做好，我們請大家報名之後提供email給我們，我們拿到email用電子郵件的方式去補寄會議資料與議題手冊。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我想再確認一件事，因為通常協作會議有教育訓練的性質，所以農委會在這邊，特別是秘書室在議程上或者是邀請的需求，也就是請農委會業務無關的處室可以盡可能派員參加，如果有這樣的需求，會議場地的布置要額外考量，也就是觀摩跟實際上開會的人坐哪一區。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最後，我們過去會請與會的大家看一份文件是協作會議參與須知，如果業務單位還沒有看過的話，就請銘錦看一下，參與須知裡面，對業務單位來說，開完這個會，會有一個結論，但是這個結論並不是唐鳳或者是主持團隊做的，這個結論是早上的議程大概像我們今天這樣子去確認心智圖的脈絡，下午的議程會請大家分組，所以某一些人對這一個議題很關心，像民間社群是要10個人參加，常常好像覺得人數多就容易贏，但是我們會建議儘量維持兩個人就好了，十個人講一樣的意見跟兩個人講的一樣的意見是相同的比重，一個意見只有一個便利貼。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "來兩個人的理由是請他們分成兩組，希望在場與會的，不管是公部門也好、私部門也好，各有一個人在裡面。這兩組經過下午協作討論之後，對於動物保護議題有建議、解法及想像，由這兩組自己去派員跟大家報告這一組討論了什麼。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "所以會有兩個人上去報告，上去報告的內容，唐鳳會原封不動在下一週的政務會議上講一次給行政院長聽，因此這一場會議的結論、結果並不是任何人做任何的裁示，而是唐鳳會把大家討論的細節與內容原封不動搬給行政院長聽，作為行政院長這個會議的成果之後，他聽到這個意思很值得做，也許回到傳統的公務體系，交辦下去請部會推動，或者是院長聽完之後覺得還不錯，但是有沒有什麼窒礙難行的地方，也就是洽悉的狀態，部會就按照部會原本的步調做，並沒有要做。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，院長聽完之後覺得是政治上不可行，會很明確說這個不採納，原則上協作會議的過程中，最後做決定的人是院長，唐鳳跟我們的功能就是把協作會議的成果跟過程跟院長報告。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我要說的大概是這樣子，不曉得大家對於程序上或者是會議設計上有任何想要詢問的地方？" }, { "speaker": "蔡玉琪", "speech": "出席是還會再討論哪一些機關出席嗎？因為現在涉及的面向滿多的。我們能夠表達其實後端的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有一個地方是法務部到時可以幫忙的，也就是有關於法例、羅馬法、動保法。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "像從動物把物裡面切開來，這一種很先進的觀念。" }, { "speaker": "蔡玉琪", "speech": "可能要帶回去詢問一下業務單位。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "沒有關係，今天會後會提供逐字稿跟被cue到的機關，像教育部被cue到，但是他們對於這一件事完全不瞭解，所以會把今天討論的逐字內容寄給被提到的部分，當然不是一定要來，他也可以看完以後給我們書面意見，或者是他們覺得距離這個案子很遠，他們不想派員，這個當然尊重各部會，這個沒有問題，但是原則上今天討論的狀況，我們會給相關的部會知道討論這一件事有提到你們，如果可以的話，大家就一起來討論，大概是這樣的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "還有嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "法務部如果真的有問題的話，法律系林明鏘老師、立法者葉老師及動物法律系的張老師，也許都可以參考。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "資訊公開有確認了嗎？就是我們有哪一些東西可以公開嗎？比如簡報？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為協作會議是一個開放政府的程序，所以原則上在會議中經手的資料都盡可能公開，比如今天的逐字稿、當天會場上的簡報、心智圖都預設可以公開的，特別是業務單位在處理這一個東西的過程中，覺得真的比較敏感、沒有要碰的，我會建議不要在裡面提到的東西，這個會比較安全一點。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們會後也會再把今天的心智圖與逐字稿寄給大家確認。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "今天沒有要補充的，就謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I was here now for two and a half weeks or three weeks. Actually, we met very briefly at the g0v..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Summit, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "...conference. I listened to your speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Academia Sinica." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "At the Academia Sinica, yeah. I don’t know what they’ve told you about. I’m from German Newspaper, \"Süddeutsche Zeitung.\" We’re the largest national newspaper in Germany. I’m the Beijing correspondent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re the Beijing correspondent?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I was the Beijing correspondent. Basically, I left Beijing two weeks ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK if we’re on the record?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Yes. I’m going back to Europe. These are my last days." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How long you were in Beijing for?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "On and off, 20 years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow. Like..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "From 1997." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Wow." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I was in Istanbul in Turkey in between. Actually, one of the reason why I wanted to talk to you is also because of all the developments I’ve witnessed there in the last two years. I’m sure you follow it closely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A very different track. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Basically, the reinvention of dictatorship with digital means, right? For the last two years, it really drove me a lot. Trump was elected and the populists in our midst, in our societies. Suddenly I feel, we as Democrats and as Europeans, we’re witnessing something like a perfect storm. Trump, populism, Russian, China and the whole digital thing seems to be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unsettling. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "...central [laughs] to many unsettling developments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Exactly. In the last one and a half years, what I did in China was I did a lot of research and I witnessed a lot of the artificial intelligence..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "...just to get a grip on what’s going on there. They’re reinventing dictatorship. I feel suddenly we have to reinvent democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. When we look at the civil society space, the CIVICUS Monitor, [laughs] the region is getting very different in the past few years." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Who does this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The CIVICUS Monitor. There’s a group called CIVICUS. They’ve been monitoring the speech freedom and..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I need the glasses for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "C-I-V-I-C-U-S. They’ve been monitoring the freedom of speech, of assembly, of expression." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now if you go to their website, click \"Asia\" and click \"Fully Open\" you only get Taiwan. [laughs] This is not to say that we’re not...have still some room to go and learn from New Zealand, Australia, and the European beacons of hope, but in this region, we’re perhaps the only one with a non-shrinking civil society space." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "On the contrary. You have a very lively, dynamic, and maybe, I would say, even more... I’ve studied in Taiwan 30 years ago, so I’ve been following the whole democratic transformation of Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s still blooming." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "It seems to me one of the most lively and dynamic civil societies in the world. You’ve traveled a lot. What’s your impression?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say so myself, yes." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What do you think? Why is that? Because it’s so young as a democracy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s certainly part of it, but also because the broadband as human right thing. It doesn’t leave anyone behind. We don’t have a large Luddite action that argues against technological progress because, whenever we roll out something, we make sure that all the senior high schools, all the indigenous nations, and all the rural areas, even the most remote of remote islands, they all enjoy the same technological progress. Digital inclusion is a part of DNA in Taiwan. I think that makes it possible for us to move fast, but also together. That is a geography advantage I would say." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Even though Taiwan was a little bit left behind by the whole software, artificial intelligence development in the past years now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. If you look at AI published papers, Taiwan has been the highest density of high-quality papers." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Yeah, in the universities. That’s true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They mostly just went to Silicon Valley. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I just spoke to Ethan Tu the other day. He said, basically, he’s coming back because he thought the universities are world-class, but they all went away then, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Then they go back these couple years now and bring their friends back. Maybe they were just fishing hooks. I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I listened to some of your speeches on YouTube also. Especially just this morning, I saw -- I think this is a very recent one -- the Asia Society speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the one with Daniel Russel." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Exactly. I saw this, and you started that by saying, \"I’m an optimist,\" so I’d look at you for optimism. [laughs] You’re the little green dot. How come you’re an optimist?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s just so much to do. [laughs] It’s not like we’re in a saturated space where the future is uncertain and that it’s linear, nothing like that. Every country at the moment is now facing the declining of legitimacy of the existing governance structures, and everyone is reinventing it in very different ways." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My optimism, I think, stems from I was like that when I dropped out of junior high. I had to serve and search the groups to work with, the research that I’m interested in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At that time, it was the explosion of the World Web. Nobody knows how to do anything really on the World Web, so everybody is figuring it out by themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Some of them of course are really bad, like spam email and revenge porn, and the usual hate speech and things like that, because the Internet makes them very easy to organize, but then beautiful things also happen, Wikipedia, the Free Software Movement, the Internet Society itself, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the optimism stems from that I’ve been working on it for 25 years now, and I’ve seen many waves..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You’ve seen many beautiful..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many waves that iterates back to beautiful things, after initial swarm-like period of disorientation." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I think the main anxiety that we’re seeing in democratic societies at the moment stems from the fact that...You were talking about spam and all this, but what we’ve been talking about the last two years after the Trump election, and the whole Facebook scandals, and the Russian interference and the trolling." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "That’s a much bigger thing than spams, right? That’s something that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s more or less the same structure, is that the Internet is reaching the other half of the world population now, so it feels like a larger thing. It reaches more people." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Yeah, but the negative influence on our societies and the consequences that this kind of bad will behavior can have without us noticing. Trump was elected because of that basically. That what makes many people, like among my friends, very scared, also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is one thing, though, I learned from Trump’s use of social media in that I think he used Twitter the way Twitter is meant to be used — in the sense of self-contained messages — impossible to misunderstand — not a link to a larger write-up or a series of Tweets, but rather almost poetic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In a sense that it’s a self-contained message that spreads by itself. It has all the right formula to go viral." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But exactly as you’ve said, this makes people feeling unsettled because then there is no context. It’s just one out of context message that can make people feel very anxious, or very upset, and so on, so it’s almost like..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Trump’s style of communication is one thing, but the Russian trolling and the rightwing trolling is another thing." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The use of these algorithms and the sort of bubbles that Facebook and Twitter created that in the end leads to this..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I mean, you’re an advocate for transparent, open communication, with listening to all sides, but what we have seen in the last two, three years, it’s the exact opposite, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s happening in different levels. We do see people who have, as you’ve said, harboring more fringe views are now much more vocal on the Internet because they think that they have found people who are sympathetic to them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Automated tools also help them to spread their message of extremism, and there is extremists in every part of the spectrum. That is true, but then I also see that because of this, people are forced to start to learn critical thinking and media literacy and so on, just to stay sane in this era of partial information and segmented information..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Are they really forced? How many people feel they are forced? Many people just resign and become fatalistic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and quit social media? I don’t think so. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "No, but they stay in their bubble. They continue to watch cat videos." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s why Taiwan maybe is on a summit..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...because in our own society we’re also with many layers of culture... Half of Taiwan people maybe think Taiwan should go this way and half of people should go that way. You can find this on all the referendum subjects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t find actually the social media being polarized more over time, though. We find people working as a community by bringing the core parts of the messages together, and do analysis, and doing visualization, and doing reporting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That actually finds an audience because in Taiwan we have a cultural backdrop that is more animist and folk religion, Daoism, that always see this yin and yang dialectic, dialog as part of the culture. It’s not quite harmony at that part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The word gong shi (共識) meaning \"common understanding\", not \"consensus\" which is a very fine thing and very difficult to reach. Here, when we say gong shi, it means just a rough consensus. People have generally the same picture understanding that. I think that is treasured too. People who work on \"common understanding\" are supported generously. You see many of them in the g0v summits." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What about the two camps? There seems also to be a lot of ideological blindness." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this election, we’re seeing less of that actually. This election, fewer people running for mayor or for city councilors focus on the old ideological splits. We’re seeing a much more diverse palette of policy goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Compared to previous mayoral elections, especially the immediately previous one where it’s post-Sunflower, and people have to take the occupy or non-occupy sides. This one, it feels pretty muted. People focus on the policy of the city. In a way, democracy is deepening. Of course, that could also be that the ideological people are all attracted to referendums..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and not taking it out in the city and mayor/councilors elections. That could be a part too. We don’t see as much polarization as the previous election." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Maybe also because it’s a local election, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The previous local election was very polarized." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What about influence operations?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Precision persuasion?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "By China?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Or by anyone, really." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Or by anyone?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Is that a big trend in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Is it dangerous?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in 2014, bots influencing election, that’s the year when the words 網軍 shifted its meaning from cybersecurity actors to automated trolls. That marks the first year..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "China originated?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...of whatever originated AI meddling in elections. In 2014, this was a new phenomenon. People studied it and generally prepared for it. By 2016, people generally saw disinformation as something that could be intentional and not just the old media misinformation by mistake. Concerted, intentional disinformation becomes generally recognized in 2016 in the presidential election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By this election, people are taking to the task of... For example, the fact-checking agencies start to work independently this year. Social media platforms, they are all not taking a completely neutral, Manila, whatever stance. They’re actively engaging and clarifying as they can quickly. Also, the government is doing the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People are calling for more law enforcement of existing laws, especially around election. There is already laws in there that enforces people’s spreading disinformation in the hope of getting someone not elected. We see candidates suing each other more in this election to preemptively enter the justice process to do collective fact-finding through the justice process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We see the three levels: (unintentional) misinformation, (intentional) disinformation, and (criminal law) enforcement." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Is it effective, the countermeasures against disinformation? Because there seems to be a certain imbalance often in these, you have a very big effect with a piece of misinformation with very little resources. It takes lots and lots of energy, resources, time..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fact checkers, court process." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "...court cases, whatever to counter these kind of information." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m still using spam or junk mail as an analogy. The thing is not to measure the relative energy spent. Of course the spammers spend far less energy than anti-spam people. That’s a given." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The main measure we need to use is the expected reward of spammers. The spam stopped only when along each way of the pipeline the cost increased a little bit and the expected reward decreased a little bit until a point where it’s no longer profitable to send Nigerian prince spams. Then we don’t see them anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the same for disinformation. At the moment, it’s still lucrative. People are still seeing a positive reward of computational propaganda. Our main work is not to make their things counterable by automated means but rather by the expected reward and decreasing it." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "How do you do that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By listening to people, by getting people into the habit of listening and waiting a couple of hours for the clarification to come out, for it not to be a real-time strategy game but a term-based game, if you will, by tuning the news cycle so that by the time of the afternoon news already have a balanced report from both sides to report." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Does it work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you think it doesn’t work?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Does it work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it does to a degree. Especially around election, people would want 100 percent work. In the election, I think it’s impossible because always things happen the night before the election. There’s no sufficient time no matter how we shorten the response cycle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At least we can prepare for this kind of contingencies, and treat it like flu or something and inoculate people as much as we can. If it’s not around the election, I think it’s generally working." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Do you and your team engage in such efforts, also?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Like what..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The real-time clarification thing from all the ministries was initially proposed and designed about a year ago. All the ministries, instead of sending their own press conference or whatever, have a concentrated, syndicated newsfeed for the all the media workers, so that they can clarify misinformation and debunk disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Occasionally, ministries even sue people in this centralized place so everybody can consult that place. That feeds into the media and the fact checkers. That’s one concrete action we’re taking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other one, of course, is making sure that independent fact checkers, they can also correct the government when we make a mistake in our reporting, and thereby build a legitimacy that is even higher than the government’s legitimacy. That’s another thing. That results in Cofacts and Taiwan Fact Checking Center, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the two main things that I initially thought about and brainstormed with the cabinet about a year ago. I think they’re growing. I’m not saying that they’re totally effective against all kind of disinformation yet, but it raises awareness that there is intentional disinformation, and we can do something about it." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Of course, for all these kind of solutions, you need a very rational, well-meaning, non-ideological public." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it could be fun. On Cofacts, we see a lot of true facts, but packaged in a way that is very viral. The package and the content is two different layers. We have a lot of people also using machine learning to learn how to make facts spread faster than rumors. That is also a fascinating field study." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Do you have an example?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, we can open Cofacts and just check their examples. I remember there’s one about food and about cancer... In Cofacts, you can always see those ones that are very viral that says a certain egg supplier enters into the supermarket that is called 全聯 which has been taken down. There’s a packaging, there’s a bite, a lead, and things like that... ( https://cofacts.g0v.tw/article/iynmaq46hruk )" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fact-checked as \"true\" because it’s really a thing and it does make sense for everybody to know it immediately. There’s a news about low blood sugar leading to, I don’t know, liver cancer or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These things get spread because they have a pretty picture. They have an initial short bite of..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "This is like day-to-day life scientific stuff, but what about political stuff?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Political stuff. Let me check. There’s some political stuff that are nevertheless true. Let’s see. There’s one thing that says the European Council voted overwhelmingly to support the peace in the Taiwan Strait and encourage the Taiwanese people further the democratic values. ( https://cofacts.g0v.tw/reply/BP1JdmYBP8WrztivHWwv )" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This gets viral, and that’s actually true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "European Parliament actually voted on that." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Was anybody disputing that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. People would dispute on the ground of that runs counter to the One-China policy, or things like that. It’s controversial and people were trying to market as a rumor that people just pops up to support the democracy." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "As we’re talking about a subject like this, what would you tell my readers, why should they care about Taiwan? Why is Taiwan important?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why is Taiwan important? We can help. We’re developing those vaccines, just like Taiwan leads research on vaccines against the snake venom, because we have a high number of poisonous snake spieces, huge pile of diversity. [laughs] We’re doing vaccine research." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re happy to take this work from the predominant social media here, to WhatsApp or whatever thing the Europeans are using. So we’re research partners." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "OK, so scientific research, and why should they care politically?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If politically Taiwan lose the freedom of speech, freedom of expression and the open innovation system that we’re currently having, then you don’t get this kind of partner anywhere in Asia. It would be very difficult to find another one." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You quit school when you were 14, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Did you do some programming before that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I started coding when I was eight." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "When you were eight you started coding?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "So early." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. Yeah, I quitted school just so I can start some entrepreneurship work and co-found a company." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "OK, so you were interested in computers and programming from a very early age. When did you start getting interested in the sort of human rights, civil society...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I was four years old." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "So that came before the computers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. My parents and my extended family, they worked, even before the martial law gets lifted, for example the right of the environment, against environmental pollution. They were also early advocates of education reform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My mom was part of the homemakers union, I think one of the cofounders, which would later become one of the largest co-ops, so also a part of co-op movement." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Did they have to suffer? Did your family have to suffer at some point for their political views?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think they were protected by a relative liberal employer, Mr. 余紀忠 from the \"China Times.\" He was, of course, part of the KMT, but of the more liberal branch of the KMT." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He shielded them from the social repercussions just by having liberals and democrats working in his newspaper. That was a relative safe zone for them to voice their opinions." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "They were both journalists." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They were both journalists." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "They influenced you a lot?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Did they have anything to do with computers or programming or was that your own thing, the programming thing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They were all very supportive. When I was eight and I started writing programs on a paper, and they relented and bought me a present, a computer. They, very early on, learned typing and used computers for their line of work and things like that, but not programming." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Programming is something that I just saw it as a musical instrument." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Yeah, I was about to ask. What is the fun in programming for me as a complete layman? You saw it as a musical instrument?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I learned very early on that has logic as its notes and the possibility of interaction it’s its melody, so it’s something that I can share, but not personally. When you write a program, it’s like writing a poem, especially a long large system, such as writing the \"Faust.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has to rhyme. It has to agree with syntactic, grammatical categories or the metaphors must connect, otherwise it doesn’t compile. The end of it is something larger than the individual stanzas. It conveys a worldview." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Have you written your own Faust already?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Well, collaboratively. There’s the Perl 6 language." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Goethe was something like 70 or 80 when he finished and he wrote his whole life." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right. That’s, by the way, part of my very early reading, when I was it..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You read it? How old were you when you read it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know, eight years old, something like that. Around the same time as I learned programming." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Did you feel you understood it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I don’t understand it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The thing about Goethe is that there’s layers upon layers, upon layers of culture. It’s like a microcosm of culture embedded in those poems. It’s not quite \"Finnegans Wake,\" which is its own thing, but it’s some of it like fractal-like nature, that the more you read into it, the more culture you absorb. It’s like a fractal embodiment of culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Working on computer language is also a lot like that, because it has to embed an entire thought process, a culture of people seeing the world as functions, as relations, as objects, as the anthology of the worldviews. They have to work with people with different worldviews and make their visions combine. That’s the work..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "For you, it was always, from the start, also about sharing and collaborating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Some people at least have the image of these nerds, that it’s about isolating yourself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you write poetry, of course, there’s a lot of isolation, but a poet that doesn’t share is a very bad poet and don’t get remembered. There’s the writing point. There’s the performative point." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I remember in one of the interviews I saw with you, because you mentioned now twice things that you did when you were eight years old and in one of the interviews you said you were bullied a lot when you were eight years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Bullied for what, about what?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know. I was enrolled for the first year in a gifted class and the individuals there were pretty competitive on the individual basis. I have no idea why people want to compete against each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s also because their parents are status pressured. That’s also because the social atmosphere at the time was like that. It’s a result of those because I’m like, I don’t know, get chosen as the head of the class, consistently took the top place in exam and while not actually caring about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All those makes the children feel that there is a non-child among the children." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of anxiety around that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, my parents took me away and placed me alongside 18 years old, and they feel much more at home with me." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What about you, did you feel much more at home with them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Your love for animals, that also started back then?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Did you live with a lot of cats and dogs already at your parents’ house?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we adopted two dogs when I was 10. That was my first relationship. At the time, we were living in the Garden City, which is also where I officially live now. It’s just that I’m mostly working in the cabinet’s dormitory now. In Garden City, the slogan is..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The cabinet has a dormitory?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, I call it a dormitory. It’s a building where all the vice ministers and ministers live, so yeah, dormitory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, the Garden City, the slogan is that \"it’s not a garden in your house, it’s your house in the garden.\" It’s a large place." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Where is that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s in Xindian City, in New Taipei City. Many social reformers, anarchists and artists live there. It’s like a commune — they even issued its own community currency." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "When was that founded?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s older than me. I don’t know precisely, but I think it’s in the ’70s." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You were born into it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. What I want to mention is that there’s a lot dogs and cats in Garden City that the community co-live together. They don’t belong to anyone. It’s just people maintaining a stable relationship with the dogs and cats, just as with the other people, like... I say \"people\", but I mean rivers and fireflies and things like that in the community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s deliberately built in a very ecofriendly way, and before learning about deep ecology or any of those very heady names and I already lived in that community since when I was 10 years old." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The anarchism, how did that inspire you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I discovered the Internet, I discovered that it doesn’t report to any government body. It’s sovereign in a sense, but it doesn’t have an army or navy, but it somehow managed to get everybody on board with only a process called request for comments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very magical to a young child. When I was 12, I took a lot of time to learn about Internet governance. There’s many theorists and essayists at the time, chief among them, the Free Software Foundation, Eben Moglen is the one deliberately making the connection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s an essay called \"Anarchism Triumphant\" that connects the old anarchist ideas with the new Internet governance ideas." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Did you also read the old anarchists like Kropotkin?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Bakunin and friends. But also Lao-Tzu and Chuang Tzu, let’s not forget the Eastern tradition." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The Taoists." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read them. There’s an Internet library called \"An Anarchist FAQ\" — frequently asked questions. It summarizes and links to all the anarchist writings." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Sorry, I just interrupted you. The modern Internet governance seems... Isn’t that like that was the ideal some years ago, but doesn’t reality show something different? Haven’t hierarchies and commerce taken over?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but on the upper layers. In the core layer, it only became more sovereign as times go. Like after the ITU -- the UN ITU -- tried to absorb the Internet governance, they just made a coalition, the UN Internet Governance Forum, which makes it clear that we’re still multi-stakeholders. We’re just talking with multilateral bodies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "UN itself is becoming more and more multi-stakeholder and hybrid anyway. After Snowden, the only link with the ministry of the economy of the US gets broken. The Internet Society does not having to respond to the US government anymore. Even the ceremonial link has been broken." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the Internet Society is at a place now that is more sovereign than any point previously." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The core is sovereign, but the core stands for potential, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The upper layers, you are saying, is what governs everyday people’s lives. Isn’t it for normal people? Isn’t the upper layer more important than the core?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know. The core allows for possibilities. We see new efforts, like Tim Berners-Lee is from the core, reinventing social media. He is now with a startup called Inrupt, and working on Solid, which is the decentralized social thing. That’s Tim Berners-Lee." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also allows the Mozilla people to work with Secure Scuttlebutt, which is another distributed social media thing. g0v runs a Mastodon instance." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I’m asking the question, of course, because I’ve spent most of my past 20 years in China." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I still remember the early days of optimists. I still remember the ’90s when we had people like Bill Gates, and Rupert Murdoch, and all of them making the prophecy that the new technologies, and especially the Internet -- and Bill Clinton, \"Jello on the wall,\" -- most definitely will subvert authoritarian regimes and will bring freedom to the rest of the world." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What we’ve seen in China, and especially under Xi Jinping. Xi Jinping, I’m saying because they’ve controlled the Internet for much longer, but Xi Jinping made a brilliant job in taming social media in the summer of 2013. Maybe you’ve also watched the process. It only took him four weeks." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Now the Communist Party loves the Internet, and they love social media, and they love artificial intelligence. [laughs] Doesn’t that prove all our optimism wrong, that the new technologies, they benefit the most determined people with the most resources, with the most power?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, I don’t think they have really proven it to other even authoritarian countries. That model is -- for all the language of exportable -- we don’t see a very clear export success story, yet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of narrative that talks about exporting this authoritarian use of artificial intelligence and so on. It’s mostly narratives at the point. We cannot see one clear example for that. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that sometimes I compare it to the call for democracy in the Chiang Kai-shek era in Taiwan. You were there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the Chiang Kai-shek era, there were people who put a lot of optimism in the so-called \"lighthouse of freedom\" message that the \"Free China Review\" press is sending out from the Chiang Kai-shek regime." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While the actual use of those technologies in Taiwan was pretty brutal also from the Chiang Kai-shek regime -- especially the early years of the occupation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that nevertheless, for all their wrongdoings, the idea that there must be more to it, to this lauded but not practiced democracy. It does shape the kind of collective imagination as what Kant would call a regulative idea -- while you can’t reach there, but it regulates the thoughts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we now, like this year, when we actually have the people who work in lighthouse sing in the national day ceremony, it is a reprise of the old free China lighthouse metaphor, but this time, it’s for real." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can see evidence that backs this narrative, but without this regulative idea, maybe the general people will not spend so much time fighting for freedom." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "These ideas of freedom..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And rule of law, constitution." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "...democracy are very powerful, and in the end, maybe more powerful than the others." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Are regulative, is what I mean. In the short term, they may not constitute a force. Even the CCP, when they changed the constitution, it’s not just the indefinite terms thing, but also rule of law, and constitutional... like placing an oath to the constitution and generally, what the global goals would call SDG 16. They ratified that in the reverse constitution of peace and justice and strong institutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can, of course, argue that it’s not implemented the same way as the SDG framers intended, or not to that degree, but they are a regulative force. That’s my main point. Taiwan can help on that, too." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "To be an anarchist in government, how does that feel?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just work \"with\" the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, the room is much larger than I initially imagined. It’s to a lot of credit of the Taiwanese people. Generally, they are OK with people who are saying \"the civil society should generally take more and more of the function of the government, until we don’t have a government anymore.\" They don’t find this as something alien." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This speaks a lot about early legitimacy of the non-profits — the human rights associations and so on — that’s working even during the martial law. They have more legitimacy even now compared to the executive branch." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What about the power people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To the power people, I complement but not reinforce representative democracy. If they’re in a national level, this is basically what we can work as a coalition so that they get more insight of what the civil society is doing. Civil society has a much clearer view of what the national powers are doing. Transparency benefits both ways, is what I’m saying." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Admittedly, in the city council, and counties, and even lower levels, there’s a lot of non-transparency going on. Only the six municipalities have signed the open data charter. That means some cities and counties still have more way to go, but on the other hand, we are operating on the national level..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What is stopping them? What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mostly fear. They know one way to organize power and information. It’s by asymmetry of information. There’s a lot of fear of just having a contextually correct or focused dialog, because they fear that the power that they hoarded through information asymmetry will be replaced by horizontal power." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The word I choose, such as the #TaiwanCanHelp message, connecting to sustainable goals, also is in horizontal power. It doesn’t have to immediately destroy vertical power. It’s building a viable new system, and you can do migration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what people working in computer science maybe have the most experience of. We were all OK with having a new operating system migrating from an old operating system, we did that many, many times now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Generally, the program that runs still continue to run, we don’t break backward compatibility. That’s the conservative part in conservative anarchism, in that we conserve the tradition and values, the people’s values. That is a soft landing to anarchism." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You always stress you don’t take orders. You don’t give orders. You’re just here to help to supplement..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To facilitate." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "To facilitate. In your fellow ministries, do you see the will in most of them? There has to be a will, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, to be facilitated." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "To be facilitated, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Do you see that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. There’s 30 or so ministers and there’s 8 -- up to 9, but currently 8 -- horizontal ministers. As one of the eight, it’s already in the job description that I facilitate across ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People generally come to me when it’s part of the three mandates that I have, open government, use engagement, and social innovation. The good thing about these three, which reinforce each other, is that there’s no clear owner of these issues. Social innovation means emergent things. That doesn’t have an owner." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The ministers generally think if the credit is fairly distributed, and the risk can be absorbed, they’ll voluntarily be facilitated, but if they think, \"It’s my own domain. It’s my own turf. It’s something that I’m already working on for 30 years and it’s none of the other ministries’ business,\" of course, they don’t come to me." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "It hasn’t been too long a time. Two years now. What would you say are your...Can you already see tangible successes?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, there’s many, of course." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Of course, I know the examples from your talks. What would you say is your biggest?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the success is the institutionalization of the horizontal network model. The peer network is not only a national regulation, but it’s also a municipal one now. Tainan City embraced it, and we just trained our first batch of PO’s." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It means that horizontal value facilitative leadership was recognized by law." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Does it go along party lines?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s entirely..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I mean, not from your side, I know. The people who accept it, are they...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Also the KMT?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, they would stress the fact that the Join platform, the e-petition platform, all these things, were installed in 2015 when they are still in business. They like to stress the continuity of the post-Sunflower horizontalism. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that because we work almost exclusively with career public servants, they’re not going anywhere, and they are required by law to be nonpartisan. There’s a strong nonpartisan culture. Even now in the cabinet, there is more independent ministers than ministers of any party. I can say the same with many municipalities’ small cabinets, as well." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "In a way, you are also part of the legacy of the Sunflower Movement, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm, a small part, maybe a small petal." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I would say one of the most prominent maybe. I was also there. I was in the parliament for two days, amazing, really." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fun, isn’t it?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Really fun, and the feeling of history in the making somehow. Like in Hong Kong a couple of months later. Of course, a lot of the passion is gone now, because you cannot sustain it for a long time, probably." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Would you say that the young people, the young generation, that they have a feeling of accomplishment now? I’m asking because I’m just coming from Hong Kong. I was in Hong Kong two weeks ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe let’s ask the young people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She literally run the e-forum during the occupy." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "In Hong Kong, there is a lot of disappointment, and a lot of frustration and resignation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hong Kong and Taiwan makes a very good contrast, because it’s the same year, the same large-scale movement. Maybe Sheau-Tyng would like to share something about how young people perceive differently..." }, { "speaker": "Sheau-Tyng Peng", "speech": "What kind of difference?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Maybe I will ask her later after we finish this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I always not presume to speak for or representing young people. I’m 37 now. I’m not young by any UN-recognized means." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sheau-Tyng is actually young, so maybe talk to her after this." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Yes, and Freddy Lim. He is older than you and he still counts as a representative of the young." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know about that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To be awfully honest, I would say that the young people feel that it’s far more OK and far more mainstream to be political post-Sunflower. That’s the main legacy. Young people were very afraid of being seen as political from their peers right before Sunflower. Being politically apathetic was the norm." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, being politically active is the norm, like spreading political message about marriage equality, human rights, whatever, is seen as cool. Back then, it was seen as fringe. That’s the one large change. That’s why I always raise the idea of regulative idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the kind of change you see in an entire generation. It’s not one or two successes. It’s the different way the people conduct their daily lives and the social topics they choose." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Do you also see that in the reactions you get to yourself as a person, as a transgender woman?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Has it changed?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People feel generally much more comfortable talking about it in the open. On LGBT rights, in Asia, Taiwan is the foremost — we certainly don’t get whipped here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Please don’t quote me on that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, what I’m trying to get is that it’s already seen as part of normal life but, post-Sunflower, people are much more willing to express gender fluidity and talk about it in political terms like self-determination, body agency, body positivity. These are things that were considered very queer, very fringe, tolerated, but now, it’s kind of hip to talk about." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "That is a big change. Taiwan society as a whole sometimes can be quite conservative in their values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "What do you expect off the referendum, the same-sex marriage referendum?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the Constitutional Court already made the decision. The referendum now is people showing that there is votes in this issue..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "It will only about the wording then in the end?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. It’s about whether the word 婚姻 belongs to the social domain or the legal domain." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Why did it take parliament so long after...You’re not a parliamentarian, so you’re not the one..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a Freddy question. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "As an observer, why?" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Because the constitutional court decision was already one and a half years ago. Why hasn’t there been concrete steps right afterwards?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To be perfectly honest, I think everybody is waiting for the referendum result." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the referendum shows that one side has a very clear advantage, then everybody would know how to..." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "They were chickening out, basically. They were..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...I’m not saying that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...I’m totally not saying that. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m saying that the Referendum Act coincides with the Constitutional Court. In the administration, we actually already finished the review of all the relevant rules and regulations, but it’s the first time that people can meaningfully do the right democracy through a Referendum Act." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we just push out something, that will immediately delegitimize one side of the referendum. That will be political suicide for the legislators. That’s my honest analysis." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You’ve also been to Europe and you’ve visited some of the states. I come from Germany. For me, this is very innovative. We are economically very strong but in this front, we are very weak in the digital, and especially with government." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "You visited Estonia and the Scandinavian countries, who are much further than we are. If you compare Taiwan, where do you stand there? Are you on the forefront globally?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we’re on the forefront if you take both open innovation and social inclusion together. There are many other jurisdictions and economies that are better in the innovation front, sometimes on the track that we don’t go, but still very innovative. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m referring to the cutting-edge use of AI in the jurisdictions you mentioned. They’re very innovative. You have to give them that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nobody would think to use the technologies that way..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...so it qualifies as innovation." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "The social credit system, for example, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. It’s detrimental to social inclusion though. It therefore will never happen in Taiwan — because in Taiwan, unless it’s inclusive, they don’t happen." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Let me rephrase the question and go back to the beginning. On the front of reinventing democracy digitally, are you on the forefront?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say so, definitely." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "When you compared yourself, for example, to Estonia, which is always the model state in Europe, what are the differences there?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s two main differences. First is that Estonia doesn’t have the paperwork legacy. Our digital transformation includes the recipe of how to migrate from a paper-based system, which makes it actually much more exportable [laughs] to other countries, because there is very few countries that were founded after the Internet, Estonia being one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not to say that they don’t play a role model kind of way. It could be like that, but actually together, they don’t have to experience either because there is no paper legacy. I think it’s more practical for out digital governance to be exported. That’s the first one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that Taiwan just has more verticals. In the digital transformation, it helps to have all the people working on agriculture, on environment, on sustainable agriculture, on all those different things to participate in digital transformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Digital\" really is just the thing that gets the data, the partnerships, the innovations together, but you still have to have all these verticals to participate in the digital transformation in order for the forces to combine." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Estonia, or in Singapore, or in other countries where there’s maybe one or two strong verticals, you don’t see as much synergy from the different economic, and environment, and social innovations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this whole-palette collaboration thing is also one of the unique part in Taiwan. Of course that gives more earthquakes and debates and things like that, but it’s part of life." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Of course. You do want to export. You do want to be able to role model, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. That’s what we call the \"warm power\" now." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Warm power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Warm. It’s a new word." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "I’ve heard it for the first time. I’ve heard of soft and sharp power, but never warm power. What does that mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Soft\" and \"hard\"; \"sharp\" and \"warm\". [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Ahh." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Warm meaning that we use social innovation methods and use SDG as our common index to solve our economic, environment, and sustainable social development issues, use innovation airboxes, you’ve read the examples that I cite." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then it can be exported easily to, say, New Zealand and so on where they don’t have to pay that much upfront cost, but by the nature of our open innovation can be co-creators in solving water leakage through machine learning or to do environmental climate change science together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, open innovation and social participation together create something that everybody around the world can join without signing a bilateral agreement. They download it off GitHub and build." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Have you had already a lot of interest?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, very much so." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "From where?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Especially among the digital nations. It used to be called Digital 5, now Digital 7, now just digital nations." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Who are the Digital 7?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Digital 7, let me see if I can recite that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The UK started it, and then Estonia, South Korea, Israel, New Zealand, Uruguay, and Canada. That’s the seven." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are an operational-level coalition. This is not ribbon cutting or anything. We are committed to open source the daily working software of our government structure and don’t reinvent the wheel if somebody else in the digital nations network decide to open source something that they already did very well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a virtual government thing that we share the tools that we develop. Taiwan is invited in the online operation group though we’re not very loud about it." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "It sounds great. I know my time is nearly finished." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "My last question. It’s great listening to you because you are so optimistic [laughs] and so energetic. I’m sure you’ve also had some challenges or frustrations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. In my formative years when I started reading those anarchist texts when I was 12, when I first encountered the Internet, I rely on the Gutenberg Project, which is all public domain texts. Because of copyright, which at the time is lifetime plus 50, it contains everything before the First World War." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Goethe would be in there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. I don’t get access to anything that’s written during or after the First World War. It was the golden age of the European civilization. People were unbridled optimism. That’s my formative education. If not for that copyright law..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...I would be reading a lot of very depressing texts during the two world wars. They were still copyrighted, though..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...so I don’t get to read them." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "That’s very good even though, I guess, there’s this one famous work by Oswald Spengler. It’s \"Der Untergang des Abendlandes.\" What’s that? The decline of the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...of the West." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "...of the Occident." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"The Downfall of the Occident.\"" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Exactly. There was some pessimism. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but not to the level of the Second World War. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "No, you’re right. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "It’s been a pleasure, really wonderful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you. Cool. I’ll send you the transcript." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Can I maybe take one picture of you or...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "Where do you usually take your pictures? Here in your office?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Outside, wherever it is." }, { "speaker": "Kai Strittmatter", "speech": "No, outside. Outside is better." } ]

[ { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Good. Two things today, actually. One is of course is that Singularity University summit. We are just about getting ready to turn in our first proposal for SU Summit. I know, it’s pretty exciting actually. We’ve been talks with SU already. We’re getting that good to go." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Of course, there comes a part where we are also trying to gauge interest in sponsors. We’ve already talked to city government, Chingyu Yao, who has been very, very warm and passionate about directing us to city resources, perhaps even venue spaces, maybe some sponsorship money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which city is this?" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Taipei City." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, the Taipei City government." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Taipei City, International Affairs Advisory Council. Chingyu’s been wonderful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "From there, we can also connect with, of course, information and tourism bureau and everything else, but since we haven’t actually gotten the license yet, we’re gauging interest. As far as speakers, you’re our first person we’re coming into contact with. We’re actually meeting with Karen Yu in the afternoon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Would also like some guidance about how to navigate that scheme. We already have a draft proposal right now and a general rough..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "I’ll show you right now. Sorry. I was just pulling this up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can use my WiFi." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Yesterday. Let me do that." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I’ll just show." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "You can show. You can show. We need to refine and polish this." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "This is a rough draft." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "This is a rough draft." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "The basic of the format will be eight SU speakers coming here. Then probably around 15 to 20 local speakers." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "15 to 20 local." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Which we also would love to invite you to be a speaker..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "...because you’re awesome. [laughs] Then, basically we’re still calculating all the costs right now, but basically, we are also trying to see, because we do know that Ministry of Science and Technology also held the GIC competition through Taiwan Tech Arena earlier this year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "After our first initial contact with Asia Silicon Valley...Remember I first emailed to you a while back?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "They basically said they’re interested, but then they also have to, I guess, professional courtesy is to talk with MLST first." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have the SU run any country level partnerships yet?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "In Taiwan, or globally?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anywhere." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, they already had it in multiple countries, like they had one in Japan last year, and this year had a pretty successful one in Thailand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called like the \"SU Taiwan Summit\"?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, it’s by country, so they call it an international summit, and the license is applied by country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, OK, got it." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "I think, recently, the Portugal one just finished, as well as the Italy one, and then what else did Madonna say? It was in her email." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I think the Italy one is coming up. The Portugal one just finished." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We’re hoping that we can also bring Taipei and Taiwan into the fold." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, sure." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Of course, how this relates with Crossroads is that after the summit, we do hope to become their country partner here. Crossroads could become a crossroads between SU and Taiwan. We can also do some major connection between the two." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We can see how that works." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "The benefit of becoming a country partner is we’re basically like a SU branch in Taiwan. We will send some of the people over there to get trained, be certified, so we can run programs that are similar to SU, but kind of localized here in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Then bring speakers from Silicon Valley, flying them directly here, and then giving out the programs and the talks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "10x methodology stuff?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, exponential technology, those kind of things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, cool." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Of course, we’d also like to not only consult about sponsorship, but also any types of speakers, what types of fields. We already have a list, of course, but we of course would love to listen to you, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let me finish reading it." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Sure, sure. You want to go through it, maybe." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Quickly through it, maybe." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "All right, quickly scroll through Singularity with date, fall. We’re looking at a year’s planning. Ideally it would be just fall." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fall is kind of busy at the ICC, just for your information." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the conference season." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Maybe winter then." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not a problem, but..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "As he soon as he books the time, then we’ll know." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "So why Taiwan? Oh, this is for SU’s eyes, but what is Crossroads for them? Summit program at a glance -- day one, day two, day three. The summit itself would be two days, but the whole planning would probably be accompanying around four days." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Day one as far as the guests are concerned, we’ve made this opening ceremony. We would pick them up from the airport, cover their hotel fees. Day two would be we would have three...Actually, this doesn’t outline that well." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "It didn’t say. Maybe this one. We’re planning to have three stages. Actually, it should be three workshop areas, your stage having a workshop area, and also one main exhibition areas where there’s different companies, like booths, these sorts of things." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Depending on sponsorship, we would have bigger booths. We would also like the public to be able to participate." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Gauge, because SU, they do require the ticket price to be at least $950. Do you want to talk about the sponsorship?" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "$950. Our concern is that $950 is a pretty high bar for a regular ticket." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unless you’re doing blockchain, which..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "They can afford it." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "As far as our focus would be is we would like this to make it as accessible as possible. We don’t want it to be this high bar thing. Our idea is to be pursuing sponsors for this and giving out tickets to the sponsors for them to pass out, so young entrepreneurs, promising individuals. We think that’s a better model than setting it through ticket price." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Does SU have a policy for live streaming or against live streaming?" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "I don’t think so." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I don’t think, but we can..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because that’s another way to make it accessible." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Maybe we can ask about live streaming." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We can ask Madonna about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can perhaps have a tier where you don’t have to travel all the way to Taipei. We can give to engage in a live streaming and maybe a free tier afterwards where you publish the recordings." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Some materials." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then that becomes common education material. That’s a way to do social responsibility without hurting your bottom line because they will be after the event anyway. They pay for early access essentially." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "That’s an excellent idea. We’d have to check with SU with that, but we’re totally game for that. A VIP ticket would be geared towards you’d have much more closer interaction with the speakers. There’d be dinners, receptions, a VIP lounge area, but more direct interaction." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Local speakers we would like, we’re all brainstorming ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s ideal. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Gou Tai-Ming, Horace Luke, Bruce Cheng from Delta Electronics. I’m sure you recognize these faces, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is somewhat WCIT-level stuff." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, kind of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It looks very similar." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Very similar because it’s also technology focused, and innovation focused. Our theme will be closer to what SU is like, using exponential technology to impact the humanity. We’re focusing more on the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the impact part?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah. Some technology but not a lot on that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Impact oriented." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Impact oriented." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Education is actually a big topic that Singularity University also focuses on." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "This is how we’re first imagining in our heads. Also, this is based off of previous experiences with the TICC through our organizer. Look at capacity, Plenary Hall -- I don’t know if we need to go through this -- exceeding capacity, 3,000 with three different stages, each with about a hundred capacities and probably some workshops around those areas." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Sponsorship opportunities. This is a rough scheme right now too. We’re also looking at a platinum scheme of $500,000 if you’re a platinum, gold sponsor, $300, $200, $100, $10, and different levels of access. We would give out a certain amount of tickets for that." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Singularity University has made it a requirement to at least have 450 participants for this event." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s easy." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "450, but of course, in the interest of everybody, we’d like to have more people come and join." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I guess the first few large sponsors will largely determine the scale and the general tone. I think SU had a, I don’t know whether it is a partnership or it’s something with \"Business Weekly,\" entrepreneurship." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "They worked together on the GICU in 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "That was the year that I went to SU." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not a formal..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "It’s not like a formal, like a long-term partnership. It was more that year they got the GIC license..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "...the global institution license. Each license is only for..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Good for one year." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "...for one year, except for the country partnership, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The country partnership is recurring?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "It’s like a long-term plan. That’s why it’s the hardest one to get." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How does it relate to GIC? Does it give you a free pass to run GIC afterwards?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Actually, GIC is separate. They have different programs, where they have the global impact competition. They have the summit. They have a program called, the one I went to is called graduate the global solution program for GSB." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Lastly is the country partnership. Country partnership is the hardest one to apply because basically it’s establishing a long-term relationship, establishing a local SU future brand." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "One other chapter in..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Then they actually bring in SU faculty, too, or we’d establish it..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like full timers, here?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Like the full time, yeah. Basically starting a company, just bring SU programs. GICs are usually just for one year. Business Weekly did have a relationship with SU before, but the last time I checked, which was in 2016, the year after I came back, they didn’t have..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "In 2015, they spent all the marketing budget in that competition. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not like they’re renewing it for the foreseeable future?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Right, right, because each year they probably have different focus that they use it on different marketing events." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Are there any other SU partners you are in contact with?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "There’s Deloitte. Deloitte Global is like a platinum-level sponsor of SU Global. We sort of talked to Deloitte in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "I do have a connection with Deloitte, which is a SU partner. Singularity University also stated that they also would connect us with someone who works in Deloitte Global, who would connect us with the greater Deloitte scheme for the sponsorship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see Google and SAP being the other two?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Google is like the early investor, and this year they kind of didn’t." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, scaling down?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What about SAP? SAP is all about impact now." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I’m not sure the reason about SAP. It’s probably also like a minor investor. Because SU has the global summit, it’s like their flagship summit, in San Francisco each year. This year the main sponsor is Deloitte Global." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I assume that the relationship between SU and Deloitte is like the tightest right now, compared to Google or..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or SAP." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "...or SAP, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s see. Impact is great as a theme, even the GC-plus or the Global Entrepreneurship Network, that’s now rebranded, like in GC Taipei, we’re now enabling social impact with AI plus IoT." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Impact is definitely the right word of the year, [laughs] and next year for sure. You still have to distinguish yourself from WCIT somehow. Otherwise, it would be seen as a scaled-down WCIT and CompuTEX and InnoVEX. The question you always got to ask is how is this different from WTIC and the top tier, then computech and innovech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A short answer to that question doesn’t involve the concept exponential would be great. Exponential, unlike impact, is not the word of the year in Taiwan. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Got it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was like, maybe, four years ago. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Got it. Four years, how obsolete." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "One of the other options, and the other idea was to actually make it an Asian region conference. This again, we also need to talk with SU a little more if this can work. To somehow have some type of coordination with Japan, with Southeast Asia, Singularity University branches, and to see whether there can be some type of coordination for the summit to make it an Asian region event, with Taiwan at the center." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "This, of course, all I’m planning right now." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I have other SU alumni. Some of them are thinking about hosting a summit in Japan, in China, in Singapore, or like around the Asia Pacific region." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "We discussed one time thinking about is there a way that we might be able to collaborate. For example, the method we thought about is we have the event dates pretty close together. That way..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like, \"A Week of Singularity?\"" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "A Week of Singularity. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Singularity Summit. Throughout Asia Pacific, and then so that way we can come together and bargain with SU to ask for the best speakers that doesn’t normally come out for just one summit." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "This is still an idea on our minds, but maybe we can assemble a collaborating alliance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t see any country partners in Asia Pacific." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "That’s not the country partners, yet. There are the summits." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "They’re the summit part. They’re the summit organizers." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "The summit license and country partner license..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "...two different..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "...are two different..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re looking to both?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "To become a country partner is the logical way as you host a summit first, and if it’s successful, and SU likes working with you, then they will consider you to be a country partner." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, OK." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "It’s like a way to test..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "It’s a requirement, a way to test." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "...to test your ability." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see. Then once you become a country partner -- I’m just making sure -- like for Canada, or for the Netherlands, do they have to run a summit every year, or is there a certain obligation?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "You don’t have to..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Pretty much." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Pretty much, yeah, it’s like you proved that you’re capable, then, yeah, you don’t really have. You can, even let other companies do it or like elsewhere, whatever. Basically, you’re focusing on bringing the SCU programs to the local country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see that SingularityU Nordic is based in Denmark." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But actually it seemed that is Nordic." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yes, if they say Nordic, yeah, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you know why and is it..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "They used to call Copenhagen, I think. SingularityU Copenhagen. What was the reason they rebranded to...I think it was because they wanted to combine their resources or something. Then, they were accepting teams all over the Scandinavian countries. So they just rebranded." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, are you looking towards something like that?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "A Singularity event?" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "That would be kind of interesting." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "It would be interesting, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You will exercise your translation resources." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "This is something that, for example, after we successfully host the summit and then we can discuss with SU about..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "How to establish..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "...how to establish maybe like a regional country model." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "It’s so hard to sell SU the idea of an Asia summit. It’d be cool if we can make it bigger, especially tied in the Southeast Asia. That’d be fascinating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A few suggestions. Since this is a bootstrapping event and you’re not actually going to run in other summits, for sure, after this, like next year, right? This is mostly just to get SU to understand that kind of leverage you can get from the Singularity brand. This is like the single focus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would suggest that you mark it as either Asia-Pacific or Indo-Pacific, if you’re feeling adventurous, to the SU. Reason why is, first, because you’re partnering at least semi-officially with Asia Silicon Valley and you want to be the thought in the Asia Silicon Valley. Singularity University is one embodiment of the valley culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The counterpart, if it’s just Taipei or SU Taipei, it doesn’t make sense actually because it mostly will be seen not as a connector, but as an importer. But that will actually hurt your leverage position to get speakers from this region." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At least, SU Summit Taiwan, but looking toward SU Summit Asia-Pacific or Indo-Pacific it’s my first suggestion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is it makes sense if you have existing connections to the innovation hubs or Impact Hub or whatever hubs around this region, it makes sense to let’s do it together, and at least spread some of the speaker invitation and speaker connection relationship work to such teams." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you focus on Impact, you’re going to have three tracks. One easy way to do it is to have one...It’s basically a mojo of three events. We did that in Tomorrow Asia. We took the SC Insight Conference, which is every year in Taipei, and a Social Enterprise Conference, which is every year in Belgium. We basically merged their agenda together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re going to run a yearly conference anyway, but we can use better graft together as though we choose Taichung, which is the midpoint." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Geological midpoint." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. And engaged the two already very experienced. They’re running this for six years or seven years, to sort out the agenda, and then add to it, of course, our own agenda around sustainability development goals, and then that became the triangle of agenda setting. Then, everybody only has to do one third of the track." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re going to have very distinct flavors to each of the breakouts or each of the tracks, I would encourage you to find agenda setting partners." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, if all the three tracks are going to be very similar, then don’t bother about it. I think this kind of coalition or a merger of small conferences is the easiest way if you only have one year to fund because then you can leverage people we find every year. So that’s another thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The last thing is, again, about branding. It would help, usually, if you run it in GEC+, in GEN, we run it as part of a larger exhibition, the innovation that I mentioned exhibition. The reason why is that, then it shares the promotion costs. You get promotion for free. You don’t have to bootstrap in your brand from scratch, which is always difficult." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The last time that people hear anything about Singularity large scale event is SU pointed out maybe three years ago. It’s not like that you can refresh everybody’s memory this quickly. If you partner with a large event of similar size or a larger size, then you leverage the promotional ability of that event." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, if you partner with media-based events they always give you free media, that’s what you have. [laughs] Around fall, Business Weekly has its own yearly summit, but every other media also has their own yearly thing going and partnering with them is easier, far easier than private sector or even some of the public sector events." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They will see this as absolutely win-win solution. Your role at this stage is also like a media. It’s much more like a media, than something..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, promotion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Partnering with something that is value-aligned, focus on impact as your main media delivery would be a great addition. They will also help you to get sponsorship, aside from the existing SU connections and speakers. They all connect with speakers anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the three suggestions I have, but I think this is a pretty valid plan. With less than one year of funding, you’ll have to dedicate a lot of time to it." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "We’re already planning on dedicating a lot of time." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "A part of Crossroads resources will be dedicated to this." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Pretty much. We’ll make this happen. About having an Asia-Pacific conference, our initial approach with SU was to host an Asia-Pacific summit, but according to their rules, they wouldn’t allow it. A regional summit has to be by country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Only partner can be regional?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Partner, yeah, possibly regional." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I mean Nordic." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah. We can use that as an argument. \"Hey, you give the Nordic.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe just Taiwanese." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "We also mentioned that we’re in discussion with other alumni in other countries who wants to host the country summit. SU knows that we may want to collaborate together to an Asia-Pacific regional..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We’ll see if they can bring over some of their influencers from Southeast Asia to come join the summit, even in a..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, yeah, possibly." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "...informal capacity or somehow." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Like a joint program or something like that." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly, as a guest. That would be good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The French people run this Night of Idea thing. They have the Asia-Pacific, I don’t know, Hong Kong or Taiwan or any nearby countries, to actually having this in time because the time zone’s close. It’s mostly about sharing promotion resources. Of course, due to live streaming and things like that, it’s also possible to pick up a thread from one forum and carry it to the next." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That will require a lot of telepresence design and things like that. It complicates matters. It’s easier if it’s time and space distinct, like over a course of three weeks or three weekends and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Ideally. We even thought about maybe having like a telepresence interaction. One stage in Taiwan and one stage in Japan where the speakers..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "A panel over the Internet." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Yeah, that would be good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can invite Sophia." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or each country can bring their own Sophia." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Their own Sophias." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly, yeah, that would be cool." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "But it got kind of awkward." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have to script it really well." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, you have to script it really well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Anything else I can be of help?" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "As far as seeking sponsorship through the central government, what would be a good path to start navigating that scene also, to see who would be interested? Of course, MOST might definitely be the target, but also National Development Council. Any navigational guidance regarding that part?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That all have to align with the theme of the year that they want to push, right? MOST is all about research grade AI scaling into the industry, that’s their push for the brand for the next year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re having one track dedicated at showcasing Taiwanese partnership with oversea, including but not limited to the tech arena for AI based innovation, then of course, they will be very interested and will give you more speakers than you can handle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s MOST. The MOEA will become the startup agency starting next year, so their focus will be early stage startup, startup ecosystem, social entrepreneurship as defined by SDG, impact-based investment and connecting CSR resources to startups." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will be very startup focused." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Startup focused. OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s for the first time that startup becomes a single agency’s business instead of spread among..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "They have a startup agency right under MOEA?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. There’s a reform of the SME department, but now they will become a 署, meaning that it’s a full-fledged Administration, rather than just a 處, which is a department. So a full-fledged Administration for startup and entrepreneurship. It’s going to be called the Administration for SMEs and Startups." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Startup is going to be the new word in this. It used to be the usual word in international development -- \"MSME\" meaning micro, small and mesium -- but startup is not actually micro. Startup is maybe exponential in growing." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Its own track." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s on his own track. They will very much like to highlight that. The main policy tool the MOEA have is the Sandbox, which is basically giving startups a way of challenging existing regulations and give them essentially regulatory monopolies by having them proposing for limited time period, they’re going to break some rule or some law even." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Is that the one in Linkou?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Linkou, that would be space-based. It’s not just the Startup Terrace. Sandbox is all over the place. You can have a startup says, \"I’m sharing private parking lots,\" or a startup that focus on financial inclusion by using mobile banking and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "End of this year, we’re going to have startups that focus on maybe drone delivery with the Unmanned Vehicle Sandbox. People will experiment with a lot of autonomous vehicle technologies. All of this is MOEA’s business. We designed an unmanned vehicle sandbox. It’s not sent to the Ministry of Transportation, but rather to MOEA, so they can handle ships and drones and cars with the same program." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In MOTC would be very different track. You can propose some hybrid models and just go straight through MOEA process. That’s what they will want to highlight. It’s a startup, but not like traditionally growing-for-10-years startup. It’s a startup that has a wide impact by breaking some..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Disrupting technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, breaking some laws." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Yeah, they’re disruptive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Disruptive startup but for such a good. That’s going to be the theme for the next year." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "For next year, starting January." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Starting January. If you’re going to pitch to MOEA, around fall, that’s when the first cohort finishes for Fintech, but it’s also the first cohort to start experimenting with unmanned vehicles and 5G deployment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If that gives them an international stage to show Taiwan as disruptive innovation for such a good, which is a very SU message, then maybe they will be interested. Make it not just about incremental growth. Make it about breaking the rules for the common good." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "For the common good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the MOEA pitch, which is very different from MOST. That will connect it to the current ASVDA program. Far as I know, they’re more about connecting resources and especially talents. The next year’s push is going to be the new Economic Immigration Act, again a very Crossroads thing, but not necessarily a Singularity University thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know how you’re going to [laughs] spin the message so it connects to SU because the new economy immigration is not about people going to Taiwan for some education and they remain, become maybe midlevel skill workers and get a permanent stay after only five years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s targeting the 70s percentile of people, which is great for Crossroads, but not..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Yeah, great Crossroads, but..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "This like ASV, Asia Silicon Valley." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is an NDC plan. ASVDA is NDC mostly. If you’re going to pitch to the NDC, that will have to be an amplification of the new economy immigration plan. But how exactly to connect that to SU, I don’t have a good idea." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Open up channels for talent from Silicon Valley SU to Taiwan somehow. I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Somehow." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Some way or another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A way to frame this is that we provide the best environment, that’s a MOEA message, for disruptive innovation to happen. Meanwhile, you can also join this very exciting, like the Microsoft AI Lab or whatever lab that international and at least Silicon Valley companies is setting up in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re in Southeast Asia and your country doesn’t have a Google R&D center, [laughs] , come over and you’ll need the new immigration act to join the hub of Asia." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Also one way for Taiwan to attract talent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. I think that also works well with the Ministry of Education’s, by 2030, Taiwan becomes a bilingual English..." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "That’s actually what I want to talk to you about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...country. They start in kindergarten. So by the time that this child becomes a college student, Taiwan will be ready for it. You can’t just make all the adults learn English overnight. We don’t have that technology yet. Maybe in \"Matrix,\" but not the real world. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly, just download it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a slower message. I would say maybe just piggyback on the international R&D center, the hub, what AIT has said, what Wall Street is for finance in America, Taiwan is quickly becoming for AI in Asia. That is a very good branding anyway and people go to Taiwan for participating in the AI, not necessarily on the 99 percentile, but also on the 70s percentile." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A lot of AI is now in embodiment and how to merge it into the real world. That requires a lot of new immigrant economy workers. That’s the message if I’m to propose to the NDC, but I’m not 100 percent that it is a very Singularity thing. Maybe not." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "As long as there’s AI, I’m pretty sure we can tie in. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Excellent. Another initiative that Crossroads is doing, do you know Professor Chen, Louis Chen?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "He’s also a professor at Taipei Tech, a professor of law and IT. We are actually working with Karen Yu, also to talk about this bilingual initiative. One, we’re actually having lunch with the Swiss and Canadian ambassadors or consulates on October 31st, to discuss their models on how a bilingual nation would look like." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "I’m not exactly sure if Swiss and Canada are the best models for Taiwan, but at least we can ask them some questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re pretty reasonable, especially with four official languages." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Four official languages, maybe the background history is slightly different, but we’ll see if we can learn anything on that too." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "The other part of that is a legislative hearing that we hope to also gather coalition and use this opportunity as a chance to gather the voices of the foreign community, especially the teachers here, the educators, but also tie it into a greater nationalization movement. If we’re really talking about bilingual, it’s not just about education. It’s actually about the greater environment as well." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We’re hoping to provide some recommendations policy wise from there. Third, which is the part where we’d like perhaps your involvement, is we would like to form an alliance of organizations, educators, but also influencers, policymakers, but also to set up a structure, which would actually, perhaps -- and this is where we’re brainstorming right now is to set up a program that actually brings high quality English teachers into Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "One of the things, after our studies and the interviews, is figuring out that there seems to be a lot of so-called English teachers in Taiwan, but they’re not actually true English teachers. They just have a foreigner’s face and apparently they can teach English." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We would like to establish a program that actually provides certain standards for English teachers. These teachers placed throughout schools, but also for workplaces. One of the problems which got brought up was, \"Hey, if you’re going to teach a company to go global, your consultant, your marketing agency, you do it, and it’s a one-time thing.\"" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "I’ve been telling companies, unless they want to keep paying for your services, once that is over, is over, and then you’re stuck back to zero." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. It’s like any other advertisement agency." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly. The idea is to have to teach them how to fish instead of fishing for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like a cultural teacher." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly. We’d like to set up an alliance that actually does provide these programs for companies and workplaces to see how this initiative might work. Of course, while we were brainstorming, we said, \"Yeah, we’d love to talk with Minister Tang about this.\" Of course, as we roll out, we’ll keep you up-to-date about how everything goes." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We’re thinking from a more gathering the foreign resources in Taiwan, as well as trying to make this into a bigger coalition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let me just check my understanding. If it’s just for kindergarten or primary schools, the teacher doesn’t have to speak fluent Mandarin or Taigi, right? If this is for a business, then they have to be fluent in both languages." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Yes. They would have to be fluent in both languages. The standards would have to be rigorous. Yeah. We do come across, and that’s the saddest thing is we do find these talents in Taiwan already, but sadly a lot of them are leaving." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Of course, we have to tie this program and this initiative with perhaps the Gold Card. We have to tie it in with some type of, \"Hey, come here and we will give you the rights to stay.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, Gold Card is perfect. It’s designed for it." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Exactly. So probably tie this in with the English teachers. Of course, we have to see what English is or whether they’re good at coaching for marketing or branding, whether they’re good at teaching in elementary. We’d have to distinguish between those teachers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, it’s a good idea, but the kindergarten and primary school one was chosen as a main strategy mostly because it’s something that parents really want, a response to a real social need." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "It’s good idea. You have to start young." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re already petitioning against the current ban on all English kindergartens. It’s good to start from that. I do agree that with the current kindergarten semi-nationalization plan, nobody really knows how much parents are willing to pay for this kind of service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not a very go hearty [laughs] plan. I totally understand why you would like to carve out a second route of employment. Maybe they can even do both if they’re sufficiently talented. Lifelong kindergarten, why not." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "That sounds like a great idea actually." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s actually a book." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From the MIT professor that did Scratch." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Got it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you market it not as a branding or as a MarCom, which would require such a diverse skill set on the part of...They have to know not only pedagogy and Mandarin or Taigi and English, but also MarCom, which is its own discipline. I would stick just on maybe just cultural translator." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is easier to reach target. There is existing demand and the cultural translator or ambassador or whatever main goal is not to personally provide any translation service or anything like that, but rather be ambassador and lower the uncertainty and doubt for existing Mandarin or Taigi oriented large companies to start working maybe in the New Southbound Policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s Australia. There’s New Zealand, which is all English as primary language, and of course Singapore and part of India. It’s not like if you go in New Southbound, you have to suddenly learn seven languages. English will actually cover a large part of it. But someone has to deliver the message." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Someone has to connect them with their counterparts in the New Southbound English oriented countries. It will also serve as an ambassador to the NSP, the New Southbound Policy that Taiwan can actually offer a lot of system integration and things like that, that Taiwan are really good at, just because the language barrier never really offered it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, their training need to be kind of like diplomats, not too deep on any particular thing, but with a very empathy oriented way around the cultures." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Lowering anxiety." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Lowering anxiety. If they themselves come from New Southbound cultures, that’s even better. That’s the maybe 80 percent here that you’re looking for." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you do branding, MarCom, international marketing, that’s like 95 percentile. It will probably compete instead of collaborate with existing agencies doing precisely the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "NSP is easier. It’s a new market. Also, it makes it align well with the people with a much more saturated market trying to expand to the Indo-Pacific Oceans, which is literally a \"blue ocean strategy\". [laughs] That alignment I think would work there." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "That’d be good. That’s actually really interesting idea. Overall, yeah, we are still in the midst of trying to set the standards." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "One of the biggest problems is exactly because there doesn’t seem to be any certifications or standards. If we can have this organization, this alliance setting these certain standards and certifications about who can do what, I think that would be a good start." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "We’ll keep you up-to-date, but we would love your support and..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, if you have some examination, I’m happy to take it." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "To become an English teacher." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "If you pass it. If you fail it, then it’s too hard." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, happy to be there." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Got it." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Great. Do you have any questions?" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "No, I’m good." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Do you have any other final..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we brainstormed about the E-Taiwanese thing, I just want to update you on that. The incentive for foreigners. We’re now thinking the main selling point is actually people who stay for some time in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the largest things that we can give them is to give them an ID number that has the second digit that is a number, not a letter, which would instantly enable the rails tickets and movie tickets." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s a long time coming." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe 10 percent of people you say are leaving will not leave just because of this single thing. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "They’re not bugged every time they reserve a train ticket." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of layering many messages in one, maybe we just focus on what’s actually the pain point of the people who currently are staying at least, maybe, a few months a year in Taiwan and make their life easier. That would necessarily include migrant workers and things like that, but that’s OK because we also want to make their life easier and friendly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need to send a warmer message. It’s less about attracting top talents and handing them gold cards. That will be a better foundation to win the hearts of people who are already in Taiwan for school, for entrepreneurship, for fun, for surfing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is so that the community will not think of it as something like the initial Gold Card or startup visa, as only profiting maybe one percent or five percent of the expats. I hear from the Forumosa and other forums that some people think it’s still too hard and that there’s some kind of relative deprivation, or relative exclusion. They were not that excluded to begin with -- but because we focused on only maybe five percent, people relatively they feel excluded. It’s a better this time if we start with the most inclusive of all and then just gradually new messages." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Can you give the middle..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Now I think of it, it ties in with the SU mindset because right now, with Trump in the office in US, SU is a bunch of liberals in California, in Silicon Valley. They’re also really in favor of including immigrants in the country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. Good to hear this." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "The type of technologies we’re using, like the digital residency program." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and the New Economy Immigration Act." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "We’re including immigrants through a digital technology online training. It ties in with what SU is about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good. It’s good to pitch to SU..." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "Maybe you can also share during the summit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, happy to. Cool. \"Immigrants, we get the job done!\"" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Seriously, they do. Sorry, regarding the E-Taiwanese part about the numbers with ARC matching, when do you think those changes can be turned out?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean rolling out?" }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Yeah, rolled out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re still in discussion about the timeframe." }, { "speaker": "Justin Wu", "speech": "All right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "More inclusion is the best message. We’re still thinking about when exactly to roll it out as not to compete with other political messages." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "All right. I think that’s interesting. Thank you as always." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very good to catch up with you." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Always good, always good to chat." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, cheers." }, { "speaker": "David Chang", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll send you a transcript, and everybody is free to edit for 10 days, then I publish it online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the radical transparency principle that I am practicing for two years now." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Really? You’re two years in?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I want to hear." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, even for internal meetings that I’m a chair, I just publish everything after 10 working days of editing." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We would very much like to start practicing this at CARE, but are technologically somehow not able to figure it out. Once we figure, we were like, “Oh, let’s do a C-SPAN thing, where we’re recording every meeting on video.”" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Then no one watched it, [laughs] so people stopped." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. You really need a way to present it as structural data for people to easily quote and make intertextual comparisons. This is like literally all my meetings, like everything." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Wow, amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then for example, I went to New York, have a conversation with Mariéme, who runs iamtheCODE. Then you can see that every word that we said can be linked both in-context and shared on social media, and also as a link by itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This boosts the search engine optimization. It’s far more likely to be searched, to be indexed, cross-referenced, and things like that. If you’re interested, I’m happy to export this system. It’s called SayIt." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yeah, we would love to do that. Let’s do it. It’s so wonderful to meet you. I’ve heard so much amazing things about you. We’re very excited about this meeting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything in particular you would like to explore?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yeah, I would just love to hear about your journey into this role, and what you’re excited about in terms of digital innovation, or innovation more broadly. Maybe for Taiwan, but for the world, also." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Just really looking to learn. I can share about CARE, 75-year-old organization, work in 93 countries. We lead the innovation team. We’ve been at it for three years. We’re very focused on social justice. That’s our real mission." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We do a lot of things. We do girls’ education. We do..." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "Food and nutrition." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Food and nutrition security, sexual reproductive health and rights, humanitarian assistance. The cross-cutting through line between all of our programs is gender justice. Really, how can we make everyone live in a life of dignity?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds good, like all these goals together." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yeah, exactly, basically." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yep, that was the description." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re SDG indexing everything we do, and we’re making the CSR reports to also SDG index everything. We are asking social entrepreneurs to also SDG index their work, because it’s just so easily explainable." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you ask me what kind of work I’m doing, and I’m like, “Oh, I’m working on 17.18, 17.17, 17.6,” that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very good indexing system. More concretely, this is the boring office. I have a more exciting office." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "It is way more exciting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called the Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "You could have a VR headset when people walk in here, and it’s just like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we should totally do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s actually a VR headset right there." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "You can actually..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but this place is unique, because it’s co-designed with more than 100 social innovators. These soccer fields are drawn by people with Down’s syndrome. It turns out they are brilliant artists. They see the world through a different lens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a foundation that works with them for more than 20 years, the CAREUS (Children Are Us Foundation). I think one of the staple nonprofit here. We also do a lot of co-creation around, this is self-driving tricycle. Just get people in the mood of having a kitchen that opens until 11:00 PM every day, and have the minister to be available in office hour every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just generate creatives. Nothing is surprising, but everything is less fun attitude, and ask all the 12 ministries related to social innovation to just station there. Just by changing the engagement social infrastructure, we were able to basically meet people by having them come to us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also me touring around Taiwan to meet with local social innovators, with people dialing in from remote islands or indigenous nations, and then have the, as I mentioned, 12 ministries in the same room, sharing food or drink, and see through my eyes what the local regional innovation needs are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of shoving text, document, and whatever to each other, they develop a rapport over those virtual teamwork, collaborative work, and really see people, immersive re-presentation, not a representation, of their lives." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They were put in the mood of innovation. If things go wrong, it’s always me who absorb the risk. Because of radical transparency, if things go right, they take the credit. I share credit. It’s very much unlike previous century, where the minister takes all the credit, and blame gets spread around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that that’s my two cents of designing for innovation." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What are your tricks? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "What are my tricks? Our approach to innovation, we always start with our North Star, which is, “People closest to the pain should be closest to the power,” which is a quote from Ayanna Pressley, who’s a friend of a lot of people on our team, but also was just elected to Congress, the first black woman elected to Congress in Massachusetts in the US." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We just felt that that was a really important grounding principle, especially in a world where both innovation has made these huge promises to deliver the future, but also, from where I sit in California, I think, is in danger of replicating a lot of the same colonial mindsets that we create things elsewhere and scale them." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Even more, I think, toxically, you create something elsewhere, and then profit from scaling them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Inappropriate technology.\"" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Exactly, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. There’s such gravitational pull towards that. CARE works all over the world. I think one of the most beautiful things about our organization is that we’ve just shown up. We’ve just been there for decades and decades." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I had this really important trip to Gaza last year. It’s impossible to get into Gaza. It takes hours and hours. It’s a different definition of police state, or a different feeling. I was meeting with this family and talking to them about, “Why are you even meeting with me?” [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I’m just coming here to visit projects and talk to our staff. It was really important for this family to meet with us as CARE, coming from at time in the US. She was like, “Because CARE has been with me before the crisis, during the crisis, after the crisis, during the crisis again, after the crisis, during.”" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "That just type of solidarity, we don’t do it perfect everywhere, but when we do, there is just something about being shoulder-to-shoulder in solidarity, and showing up over a long period of time that, in some ways, is antithetical to some people’s definition of innovation, which is saviorism embodied in a silver bullet." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I think a lot of what we’re trying to do as a team is straddle that world of saying, everything has changed so dramatically. We have all of these different resources. Technology is not a sector. It is like a huge feature of the world that we need to know how to govern." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, a fabric." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Exactly. Can we use this moment to center the people that are experiencing oppression and poverty, to be able to listen to them as people that, experiencing these problems, usually have the best solutions, or at least the best understanding of the problems? Then create innovation or innovative solutions from there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the whole point of me going to the indigenous or the rural places, because really, they are the most innovative. When we scale innovation this way, what we are actually scaling is the experience of listening, of being listened to. That traditionally doesn’t scale. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. Power holders don’t love to listen. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, but they love to broadcast." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. That’s actually quite radical. We’re working on this project called Embark right now, which is a collective of advocates for gender justice. We’re trying to figure out, what’s our thing that we’re selling?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "At the end, we were like, “Oh, it’s actually justice-centered philanthropy, rather than charity.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We’re not interested in giving things away. The whole idea of, what is it, \"doing well while doing good\"? It’s just such nonsense. Everyone does have to have skin in the game in order for us to move the needle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This project, it was called The 22?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "It used to be called that, yeah. Now, it’s called Embark. We branded it, finally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, better branding." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. Then it was called Prince briefly, because were saying the initiative formerly called The 22, which we started..." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "It was just a symbol. We were like, “OK, we actually just need a brand. This is confusing everyone.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I said it’s just recently renamed to Embark?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yes, exactly. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool. Any other interesting thing you are working on at the moment, maybe not necessarily around Asia?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "In general?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, in general." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Actually, Grace, I’m sure, and Bihar, Burundir, do you want to share anything, too? I can talk forever, but [laughs] I’m cognizant of that." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "One of our projects I’m working with the CARE India office, and also CARE Cambodia, Nepal, and Bangladesh. We are trying to replicate their innovation from the CARE Bihar team to their other near neighbor country office to share in what is a successor, to help the program, to boost and improve their sexual and reproductive health." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "Right now, we are in the second phase in trying to build their community, the practice, and then to help these four countries to share the learning and knowledge, and also to collectively do the problem solving, and to identify what’s the future of their health training system looks like in the Asian region." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "We want to create there the sub-region of their health training system. That is their ongoing process right now. I’m always curious what that looks like, if we can collaborate with their technology people, or to bring in more technical support to our country office." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "As we mentioned about before, we worked closely with their front line worker, and then their local people, we understand the problem. However, sometimes we need more experts to guiding the local people, or how can they implementing the ICT to the assistant, or how they build in the cloud, something like that?" }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "That’s their thing. I was thinking it would be exciting to, connecting with you, and seeing what’s the opportunity there. Another thing, I’m going to our Philippine office next week. Then talks about to do a spring workshop, and guiding them to do some exercise ideation about one of the agriculture, the package, the toolkit." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "They are talking about how can we build out that toolkit to response or emergency? I saw your website, you have a disaster prevention system, the dashboard." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, the Civil IoT system, yes." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "Also, the dashboard integration, the dashboard, I was like, “Wow, that’s a pretty awesome,” the structure, to provide the transparent information to everyone, so that they will be able to rapidly respond, like how should they react to the disaster?" }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "Maybe there’s the following question, like Earth, or like the governments and minister, how would you see the governments of Earth to collaborate with another country, and how we see to share in this experience and knowledge to the other countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. First off, I am working with the cabinet. I am not working for the cabinet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m kind of the midway, the lagrange point between the civil society, the social sector, and the public sector. That’s my working condition. If I start taking or giving orders, this whole notion of collaborative horizontal power just dissipates." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The very first utterances of me commanding another ministry would be the time when the ministry lose this peer-to-peer, innovative relationship with me. I always maintain that I do this in a very Taoist fashion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To take a concrete example, we have this thing called the Presidential Hackathon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Where every year, the president’s office selects among maybe, this year, it’s 100 and so teams. They have no monetary reward — there’s no \"doing well\" [laughs] part of the hackathon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We call it a hackathon, but it’s actually three months of intense collaboration across sectors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can propose anything to improve on the presidential promise during her campaign that they think the public sector is not doing well. We have journalists asking for better data from the government, so they can do more analysis on flood control." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have Taiwan Water Corporation saying, “We are willing to share our pressure or measurement data, but we really want people who know machine learning to save our time in detecting leakage,” because climate change, water shortage is a real problem, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of the 100 or so cases, we find maybe 70, 80 percent is actually written by public servants, but they didn’t have the budget. They work in silos and things like that. Then they were afraid of innovating, because various conditions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s meant to be cross-sectoral, they just find an NPO or a social sector partner to submit their admission for them. They are like, “Oh, we were just working with our NPO partners,” but they actually really proposed it themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The prize for those five winners every year is the president’s office will oversee that it’s merged into public service next year with proper budget, proper support. This is really impact as the prize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the Water Corporation thing, the machine learning water shortage detection, because we SDG-indexed all this work, New Zealand discovered it. Just like you mentioned, and you see on the website, they also say on the website." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Say, “Hey, we’re running into a water shortage for the first time because of climate change.” Their choice is either buy a proprietary solution for it as well, that may or may not work, or co-create with those hackathoners from Taiwan Water Corporation, so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our modus operandi is not to work as a state government, but rather with a social sector intermediary, or at least through the Taiwan Water Corporation, who is a state-owned enterprise. Always not as the Ministry of Economy, or the president’s office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we work closely together with people on the front line who are closest to the pain, and put our field people and their field people together on an incubation period that’s maybe another three months, so that we don’t rush to deliver solutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I don’t believe in any solution that’s not co-created by people. It’s basically maybe three months of fact-finding and collective interest-finding process, after which then we start an official partnership." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the modus operandi for most of our international collaboration around digital technology. If you are interested, I’m very happy to put you in contact with the actual people. It’s actually an NPO that is traditionally sponsored only by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just this year, they are also looking for impact grants from overseas as well. They really want to make more friends outside of the traditional Ministry of Foreign Affairs system. If you have a description of a proposal or whatever, I can just send it to them to read next Monday, where we have a special meeting." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "That’s cool. You were talking about the collaborative horizontal power. Can you tell me more about your theory of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Change?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "...change, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re totally using the social vocabulary in government work. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I know. I worked in the government. I worked in the Obama administration before I came to CARE. I’ve also been playing back and forth. We’ve been on many different iterations of our team structure, landing around the snowflake structure." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "It’s the same as a community organizing structure of interdependent nodes, where you all commit to each other’s leadership. It’s imperfect in practice, but it’s more of a North Star. Anyway, I’d be curious." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really the only thing that works nowadays. People form horizontal connections, anyway. You might as well leverage that. Otherwise, it’s just a cacophony, and nothing good comes out of that." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I think CARE thinks of itself as, we have a hierarchy that’s drawn out of our org chart. It’s completely not accurate in how decisions are made, power flows, or anything. It’s just like, “Oh, that’s a nice, comforting thing for the C suite to think about.” [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I like this Buckminster Fuller saying, that, “If the old system’s broken, don’t fix, patch, or fight with it. Just build a new system that renders the old one obsolete.”" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Render it obsolete, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly what I’m doing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I mentioned, it all starts with radical transparency. This is David Plouffe, speaking for Uber at the time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He’s not just on the record, he is actually on 360 record, as we mentioned, Oculus or something. You actually see us chatting." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "That’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this really shifts the perspective of, say, the unions and the people who are running co-ops and things like that. Suddenly, they are seeing Uber as something that they can also repurpose to, like becoming a platform co-op to reuse the technologies, and enabling regulations, but also help Uber to account, to a sense, then, as taxi drivers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around that time, our first try is through this AI-moderated conversation thing, which is an open source tool called Pol.is. What we did was we essentially asked all the drivers and passengers of Uber and taxi what they feel about the same fact, which we crowdsource." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can agree or disagree on each other sentiments. As you click agree or disagree, your avatar moves among the people who are your Facebook and Twitter friends. It’s just that you didn’t talk about this over dinner, but they are our friends. They are not nameless enemies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In siloed organizations, it’s very easy for people to, even if you have the OKRs, to think each other as nameless, faceless. Now, with this kind of structure, you can see that people have different values, but they are still your friends. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is, because unlike traditional social media, there’s no reply button, so you cannot troll someone. You cannot make personal attacks. The only thing you can do after clicking agree or disagree for a while is to share your own authentic feeling for other people to resonate or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every time we run this thing, and we partner with, for example, people in Seattle, in Bowling Green, and so on, we always find the same shape. I think this is the Bowling Green experiment. People agree to disagree on a few things, like their ideologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t spend calories on it. They just focus on convincing people across the board, and being more and more resonant over time. The system will reward you if you can propose something that is more resonating with everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the end of three week or so, we always get the rough consensus from the crowd, which we then bind ourselves to use only the consensus, and nothing else as the agenda for face-to-face stakeholder conversation with Uber, taxi unions, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is how we live consult with everybody, using as agenda the crowdsourced feelings. There’s a methodology. This is standard focused conversation method, where you have first the facts, then feeling about the facts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then ideation around the feelings, then the best ideas are the one that takes care of the most people’s feelings. This kind of feeling first horizontalism, I think, really captures people’s attention. Then people are not stuck in just throwing out ideas after another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It really costs a lot of mental cognitive power to sort through ideas. If it’s each other’s feelings, authentic feelings, people really are very engaged with other’s feelings, and try to resonate into something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main way of me, through radical transparency and asking how people feel about it, generally build a culture of what we call participation officers in every ministry. Every ministry, there’s a team. It’s very snowflake." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My own office is, at most, one person poached from each ministry. Each ministry still pays for their salary. I don’t rank or rate them, and they have to brainstorm to build something that’s a Pareto improvement for all the ministries involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then back in every ministry, there’s a team of people who talk with e-petitioners, people about to go to the street, and so on, and invite them into co-creation meetings. That’s the snowflake idea, an NPO in every ministry. Now, it’s spreading to the Tainan municipal city and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever we see anyone complaining about anything, like the tax filing system and so on, we just invite anyone who complains, either online, through live stream, or face-to-face through co-creation meetings, and through these co-creative workshops, we can get everybody’s standpoints together, find common values, and deliver innovations that satisfy everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is literally co-created by hundreds of people, the new tax filing system of this year. 96 percent of people loves it. The other four percent know that their ideas and their feelings will be taken into account the next year. This really builds radical trust among people. They know they get invitation just by complaining." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "What kind of complaints do you see?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very interestingly, just in the initial e-petition for the tax filing system, it’s usually very broad. The initial one was just called \"it’s explosively hostile.\" That’s not very useful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then 80 percent of the people who leave a comment, it’s just calling for the Minister of Finance to resign or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Only maybe 20 percent of people say, “Oh, it works pretty well for me on Windows.” It’s not useful at all. The participation officers are meant to be there so that they can pose an e-petition and say, “Anyone who propose anything that is substantial, that get the attention that they crave...”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The trolls basically craves attention because their relationships are transactional. By developing long-term relationships by only rewarding authentic expressions, we can say, “OK, so now, people actually proposed something interesting about a tax filing solution,” and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use standard user journey and other mechanisms, and broadcast everybody’s attentions and their feelings. Basically, if 5,000 people propose the same feeling, it’s just one Post-It note. This is, again, an overview effect on the entire journey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then that really calms people down. Once we post the invitation, 80 percent of them just switch into contributing their expertise. The initial petitioner was so angry, because he’s a professional user experience designer. People who care..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...take it upon themselves to act." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yep. We believe the same thing at CARE." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then people who know many things about cloud, elastic computing, and whatever start chiming in. The entire project is of negative budget, because of all their suggestions. We save money, and we just use a small fraction of it to run co-creation workshops." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the experience we’re hearing. Initially, just the feelings, but once you let the feelings have its own room, its own space, and rewarding only the ones who authentically share their expertise, it’s transformative for them. The face-to-face, food, and drink, it’s all very important." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "[laughs] Bring food, people will come. That’s “Field of Dreams.” That’s so cool. Can I ask? I’m taking up all the airtime, I’m sorry. I know you guys have a lot of questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They come in with me every Wednesday." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "OK. How did you get to this role, or as you think about...I guess there are two questions. One is just your personal story, in terms of how this role is living out your mission. Then the second one just being that good governance is an important battle to be fighting right now in the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "How you place that in the broader sociopolitical, global context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My personal story, I’ve told many times..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will be very brief and say, I am like one petal in the Sunflower movement, when people occupied the parliament, and demonstrated that it’s possible to listen at scale, basically. I think it really shifts the political landscape." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The young people, before Sunflower, I think they seldom talked about politics publicly, with family, or on social media. It was seen as fringe, like social justice. Not very cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After Sunflower, which is a collaboration with more than 20 nonprofits, and each working on a different aspect of the sustainable development goals, they collectively re-looked into the trade service agreement, which was at that time a very linear GDP-oriented thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it collaboratively brought people into this post-GDP world, because we see that with the right statistical finesse, you can make GDP arbitrarily high. We have some neighbors who are very good at that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s maybe not a model worth emulating. We’re much more proud. Like just today, the World Economic Forum says Taiwan is one of the four super innovators in the world. That’s more likely what the teenagers and the young people would be taking pride in... because GDP is strictly linear." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "It has no correlation, really, to good governance, strong democracy, or anything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To anything. [laughs] Right. I think that is part of what Sunflower has brought, a sea-change, to where people feel it’s cool to talk about social injustice, about marriage inequality, about pretty much everything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think personally, it really rides on the wave of people gradually realizing that in this corner in the world — according to the CIVICUS monitor — when the civil society is shrinking everywhere, Taiwan is expanding. This is abnormal. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yes, totally, or a beacon of hope, really." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Before Sunflower, I don’t think people are generally cognizant of the fact that Hong Kong is losing press freedom, everywhere is losing freedom of assembly, freedom of speech is being curtailed, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "In the US, certainly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well I think we just collectively woke up to the fact in 2014. That’s the personal story." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s why I keep giving those talks, like just this morning, about media literacy, about why working on misinformation, we should see them as an invitation of conversation, and not infringing on freedom of speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s precisely what people who sow discord want, and things like that. I think I see myself, again, using those pretty icons." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Complementing, but not reinforcing, the institutions that implements open government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through the OGP partnership, we invite the civil society to collectively write a shadow report, enhance our transparency, so that when misinformation comes, it’s seen collectively as an invitation for more dialogue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that that’s really the root of how to solve this disinformation problem. It’s not to have it in the room of the government, keeping the people in the dark, not sharing the context of policymaking. Of course, that makes the disinformation a fertile ground to grow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If, on the other hand, everybody can meet me every Wednesday, all the contextual information of policymaking is published online. We got literally all the 1,300 annual, monthly, and quarterly reportings of all our budget items published on the e-participation platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can see all our ministries, all their budgets, all 1,300 of them, and how exactly they’re carrying out the work, how the procurement and spending is done. If you comment on it, a public servant actually comes forward, and have a real conversation in public around those social object that is the budget, regulations, and petitions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With about five million people active on this platform, out of about 23 million people in Taiwan, I think we have a new fabric upon which that a real collaborative governance can grow, just by people sharing objects that are factual, and also backed by people’s own measurements, not just the government’s measurements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, I will just use one last example. This is AirBox, people donating their balconies, schools, and so on to measure air quality. It’s all voluntary, grassroot. There is nothing in it that’s state-sponsored." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a completely open source community, more than 2,000 participants. In any other place in East Asia, this would be seen as a threat to the legitimacy of central government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you measure something in your home, even with an imprecise sensor, but compared to the Environmental Protection Agency sensor half a kilometer away, of course, people are going to believe the ones that they set up themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very uniquely in Taiwan, instead of poaching or imprisoning the people who start this movement, we just say, “We can’t beat you. We just join you.” [laughs] We just allocate funds to manufacture more precise, lower cost detectors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is like the map of digital gap in Taiwan. Setting up the place where it’s too high in the mountains, or people are just not that well-connected. Even in the middle of the Taiwan Strait, where no citizen scientists will go, but we will go because of the wind turbines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We will actually set up those offshore wind turbines for carbon-neutral energy. Then we can also put air quality detectors on it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We developed technologies, such as distributed ledgers, with the community so that they can snapshot and store their numbers on a public chain, before absorbing into the national high computing center, so people can know we will not change the number the day before the election or things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody can then do science together. The AirBox, I think, it just really epitomized the idea of we’re solving our local environmental issue, sharing it as open innovation, and people just download it on GitHub, and starting their own AirBoxes. They don’t have to ask for a patent or a license." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then really spread the word about, it’s not just Internet of Things. It’s Internet of Beings. It’s people connecting together. I think that’s the main narrative of collaborative governance. I don’t want it to be just a Taiwan thing, but be seen as a valid model of any other considered to be more authoritarian countries to see maybe there’s light in democracy." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Definitely. It’s interesting, in 2007 and ’08, I was on the Obama campaign. I worked in the field, just knocking doors all day long for a year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deep canvassing?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Deep canvassing. I was a huge and early proponent of deep canvass." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, awesome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re from very similar backgrounds." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. It was funny, because everyone afterwards was like, “Oh, it was because of technology that we did it.” I was like, “Oh, no.” That helped me figure out which houses to go to, but it didn’t replace the interaction or the relations." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Technology can accelerate that, but it won’t build it for you. I feel like some of the fervor around fake news in the United States right now is really more of an outcome of disintegrating communities and diverse disintegrating communities, that then, we’re so much more susceptible to disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We don’t have the ability and the relationships to triangulate, to develop a new narrative, to toss it out, to do all the other things you do when information comes to you. I think that that’s such an interesting, how you framed it made me just remember all of that time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. We’re working on the Regional Revitalization Plan at the moment, because everything I talk about is municipal or national. Truth to be told, in many places in Taiwan where it’s 50k people, 100k people, they are really suffering from the young people just going to the municipal and cities, and then not coming back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just to reverse that trend, we need to work with the local people to reestablish trust in the community. One of the, I think, very powerful ways is just to enable the local not-for-profit, like co-op or community-owned media and production." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Production, not just with agriculture or whatever -- those are important -- but of meaning. I think that’s the next step. We’re working with all the college and universities on what we call university social responsibility, or USR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They get free money from the Ministry of Education if they can do capstone curriculum that runs for two-plus, three years with the community to enhance the community’s meaning-making process. That’s, I think, very important toward solving the issue that you just talked about, which is disintegrating trust on local communities." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "It doesn’t end up feeling like you’re campaigning for anyone when you do it right. It ends up just being about really rebuilding, or doing things for your friends. It ends up being fun by the end of it. It’s not about the hard moments of voting." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "At the end of 2008, it wasn’t even about electing Barack Obama to anyone that I worked with. It was about this important idea of reimagining what our national community could be." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we are working with a lab called The GovLab. They are applying these ideas, I think, to the state level now. Beth Noveck is now Chief Innovation Officer also of New Jersey." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. I’m from New Jersey, and I know Beth, and all those things. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "One other question I have for you is around Sunflower, about the days before it, and what you think, looking back, the elements were that made the Sunflower movement so effective or lasting?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there was a rehearsal of Sunflower about a year before that. Actually, half a year before that. Sunflower got maybe half a million people on the street, but the Citizen 1985 movement, the White Cross Military Secrecy Parade brought half that number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s still a very large protest, and it’s also a flashmob. Like the Sunflower, people have no idea that this many people will come. They just randomly met on the bulletin board system, a kind of local Reddit, and just flashmobbed its way to quarter million people on the street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around that time, I think what really works is that the people who organize it, because they are not traditional unionist or traditional movement mobilizers, they were literally just flashmob." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is something that people seldom have done, if you work in organized protesting, is that they open source everything, including how to apply for network, how to apply for the permit, and how to negotiate. This is just like Occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have liaisons with other Occupies who share the protocol, people’s microphone, and everything like that. They document everything in a Google doc, and invited everybody who work on civic tech, on social innovation, on civic media, to brainstorm how exactly can we make technology more of a fabric?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we have a quarter million people on the street, and nobody can connect to the Internet, because it’s super full. It’s an interesting research problem for many people, including me, the civic hackers. We put ourselves to task and worked for a half a year of how to improve the human experience of mass protesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That become, I think, the core of the network topology team, because we had a rehearsal of that 10 days before Sunflower in the anti-fourth nuclear power plant parade, which is not quite a parade because of typhoon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That also means that people really want to attend, but cannot. Live stream and everything plays a large role, larger than we anticipated. Because we have the equipment ready, the programs, and all the what Clay Shirky would call \"situational applications\" ready." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the time of Sunflower, it doesn’t take any coordinated action. People just took whatever they learned during the previous rehearsals, and just like that." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "That’s so interesting. I don’t know if you’ve met DeRay Mckesson at all?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "I worked with him in Ferguson during the protest there. He started an organization called Stay Woke. The idea was to also improve the experience of protesting. This was a sanctified role that we play in humanity. I just feel like he would be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "If it’s OK, can I have you..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He’s the podcast guy?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yes, he was." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yes, he has a podcast now. You should be on his podcast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m happy to, happy to. Happy to connect with this. Anything else..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Really, we can talk for hours..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is there anything I should know when recording for the event tomorrow?" }, { "speaker": "Maya Kao", "speech": "Probably, Jimmy will send a document about..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a script. Is there last minute additions or things, keywords you really want me to mention?" }, { "speaker": "Maya Kao", "speech": "\"Scaling innovation.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Scaling innovation, OK." }, { "speaker": "Sara Yeh", "speech": "NPOst." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "NPOst. OK, I’ll make sure that I repeat these things three times, because..." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Triplets." }, { "speaker": "Maya Kao", "speech": "We invited Audrey to come to our forum as well, but Andre is not in Taipei tomorrow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have to be in Changhua, it’s one of those regional visits." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I try to be in Taipei as little as possible of my time, because most innovations doesn’t happen in large cities, and certainly not in the capital. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Yeah, certainly not. What is it, “The future of tomorrow’s not going to come from the main stage”?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right, but OK, I will be telepresent." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "That would be perfect. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wish you a great event." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Totally. Thank you so much for, I would love keep in touch on a bunch of different fronts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "The radical transparency technology, I would love to adapt that. We should use that as our team." }, { "speaker": "Grace Hsieh", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everything I mentioned is free and open source. Just put the right technical people in contact with our people, and you will be set." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We’re also at the very beginning of building more of a...I actually don’t like this terminology of ICT4D, but how to think about technology in a more integrated way for our aims of social justice. I think in our sector, it becomes very efficiencies-focused, rather than who has access, access and justice-focused." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We’re probably a year away from really doing that in earnest, but I would love your sage counsel. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m very much willing to help. My three mandates are open government, youth empowerment, and social innovation. Your topic is like in the cross section of the three. Of course I will help." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Awesome. Also, anything, any time you’re back in the United States, let me know. I also have an aversion to anything HQ, so I bounce around a lot. Any time, and actually, any US major city, we have a team member there. I would love to welcome you there. Also, anything for care that we do to amplify your message and your work, definitely let me know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool. The foreign collaboration arm, the ICDF -- the International Cooperation and Development Fund." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "We just met them.." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You just did. Did they mention that they are also looking to work with oversea impact investment?" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Not quite on the nose like that, but we have that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. I think, just like you, they have a history that goes way back -- 107 years. [laughs] It’s part of the government, but then it’s also wanted its own identity. Especially now, because if it’s just with the people who recognize diplomatically, then it tend to be developing and least developed places." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Where they have a very good working methodology already, but they really want to work with other, more highly developing, or even equally developed countries, building on the success of our digital opportunity centers, which Taiwan does really, really well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And is, I think, uniquely well because of our geography. We totally want to take that idea into, I don’t know, Manila or whatever, which is outside their comfort zone." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Just do it in the United States." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is outside their comfort zone, though I really want them to talk more with people on that front." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "One of the things that our team, and Kara’s been taking on, is there’s been an implicit belief, I think, in the United States that we don’t have much to learn from the rest of the world. International development is very much like, “Here’s things we know. Let’s scale the things we know.”" }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "For obvious reasons, that is clearly not the case. I’ve been interested in thinking about, there’s Ghana think tank and some others, of how we can identify challenges in the US, of which we have zillions, and bring in other partners from around the world to build our capacity to show. I think that could be a really..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would be lovely." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Come to Georgia. That’d be great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would be great." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Cool. Can we take a picture?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Dar Vanderbeck", "speech": "Continuing our tradition of every meeting gets a picture, which I love." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s take the picutre outside that wall of Post-It Notes." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我們今天有做逐字稿，所以你問也是幫其他所有未來的媒體問。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "喔！你逐字稿的用意是這樣，一樣開放政府就是開放給大家看就對了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "就先談剛剛講無人載具通過了，要送立法院，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "已經在立法院，在委員會初審過了。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "這個法令一開始是您的創意，是不是？就是您的想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不能這樣說。最一開始是我們有一個概念叫做sandbox，這個概念是從英國學過來的，英國是英美法系，所以它其實比較是判例制，我們這邊其實是成文法系，所謂sandbox是在一定的時間、空間裡面去違法，然後違法出來是一個好主意的話，法律就會因為你提的新版本而修改，如果這個並不是好主意的話，會讓後來的人都付學費，所以是用開放創新去換一段實驗期的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當時英國剛開始推出是從金融領域推出，也就是所謂的「金融沙盒」，但是我們在使用這樣創新概念的時候，其實我們是成文法系，也就是大陸法系國家裡面第一個通過這個的，原因就是因為在大陸法系裡面需要立法院具體地說這一個創新實驗條例可以排除這一些規管的法律，等於讓立法院三讀通過一個沙盒法專門來做這個實驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今年當然同時有三個不同的實驗平台，就是平台經濟的，那個是1月，是國發會的行政命令，法律方面4月開始是金管會的金融沙盒，現在年底了是經濟部為主導的無人載具沙盒；除此之外，還有像NCC 5G的頻譜實驗或者是其他的頻譜實驗，如果繼續列可以列更多，只是說這三個是大的，而且比較有進步，我要講的並不是一個人的主意，而是看到英國這個做法很好，民間不管金融界或者是做AI，又或者是做私人車位想要上班分享給別人停車，就是被收停車場的那一種財政稅負的，所有這一些想法的人，都覺得先讓我們實驗看看，所以我們有一個「一站式入口網」，也就是 www.sandbox.org.tw，一上去就看到有上百個案例，透過這一種方式去釐清、給一段時間的期間，脈絡是這樣，都是在今年通過的。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "這個是大背景，我們回到無人載具的部分，因為像Uber在美國已經上路了，透過我們這個無人載具的法令，如果快的話，應該是明年，我們是不是會有一些實驗在臺灣做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。我想我們是媒合創新者跟地方政府的實際需求，其實有相當多的城市（三個以上），只要一通過，他們就有一些很具體可以解決大家交通問題的一些想法，想要跟不管是國內外的朋友合作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，一開始是從大眾運輸是大家比較關心的，但是未來還有更多的，像無人機的載貨都可以放在這裡面實驗。我想特別強調的是，像金融沙盒或者是別的沙盒，已經通過的都可以看到其實來申請的人，有時是要挑戰公務體系，因為之前被駁回很多次，以前駁回不用成本，只要一、兩天，但是你如果容許他去做一個新的解釋，你要花一、兩個禮拜，所以從公務員來講，如果他已經有一個往例可循，駁回比較快。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是當有沙盒法律通過之後，就發現公務體系的做法改變了，因為如果你讓他通過合法，不用去沙盒實驗的話，你只要陪他一個禮拜；但如果你駁回他，等於他要進入沙盒，你要陪他一年，所以事實上你不如就把法律放鬆，把解釋重新用比較新的方法解釋，自然就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像無人機做農業使用的農噴這個用法，其實也許根本不用無人載具的沙盒，用現有的民用航空法就可以讓他做這樣目的的用途，所以有沙盒的存在，無形中一樣創新，有時根本不用進沙盒，是讓公務體系更願意跟創新者來配合，這個是第一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二點，我們其實明年年初就會開幕的「沙崙智慧綠能科學城」，其實是介於無人載具的實驗研發期跟實際上路進入公開道路，也就是測試沙盒中間一個動物園的地方，所以在開放空間沙盒測試之前，要先在封閉的場域，本來臺灣就有這樣車測中心等等的地方，但是那個都很遠，在大家的生活圈以外，因為這個就在高鐵站旁邊，所以大家沒事就可以像逛動物園一樣，有事、沒事就可以去看最新在封閉場域測試的無人載具長什麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "甚至，我們在行車控制中心會模擬一些像機車、遊行、遶境的各種各樣情況，可以知道這一些新的物種如何回應。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "這個什麼時候開放？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "明年年初。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "所以隨時都可以去，也不用申請，一般人可以看在實驗什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這個是封閉場域，經過之後你覺得好奇，也許透過模擬的方式、也許透過實際在路上看的方式，大家就會對這個越來越熟悉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實在此之前，我在空總的辦公室（社創中心）長這樣子，我們已經有過類似的測試，不過當時是無人三人車，也就是當時MIT的Media Lab跟北大合作，這一些三輪車就是整天在建國花市那個地方跑來跑去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們發現人跟機器這樣子都互動，不只讓我們更瞭解他們，其實也讓這一些機器更瞭解實際在社會上互動的狀態是什麼，大家什麼時候會覺得不安全、不舒服，又或者是覺得有疑慮，這些並不是靠法律就可以做到，而是要靠非常多互相相處才能夠知道人會覺得這個情況不太ok。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "機器如果覺得不知所措等等，也會用燈號或者是其他方式來通知旁邊的人，可以說是透過這一種封閉場域的安全測試，先把大家覺得舒服的邊界找出來，然後再把這一些參數寫進演算法裡面，就可以讓他們在實際運作的時候，是符合怎麼樣對社會、對什麼樣是正常、讓人舒服的邊界，而不是寫這一套程式或者是開發這一輛車的那個廠商世界，是要在我們這個社會先求取出一個大家覺得安全、舒服的邊界。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "但是畢竟是封閉，我是一個第三者，但是無人車像美國真的是一個道路，後來發現不安全，如何進入第二階段？因為總是要上路，這個有下一個階段？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有。在無人載具創新實驗條例裡面，特別說到一開始也許是給他一個專用道，所以上面就不會有摩托車，又或者像你本來就是有人的公車，他的路線裡面有一些部分變成這一輛自己開，但是駕駛還是在方向盤後面，如果隨時發生緊急狀況，這一輛會告訴他不知道怎麼辦，就會繼續take over，所以即使是在所謂的開放場域，一開始的測試也都是在這一種安全範圍裡面，他的開放意思其實只是不要讓特別來沙崙的人看到出現，但是他的安全值跟在封閉場域裡面是相同或者是相差不多的，等到習慣一、兩年大家覺得很ok，也許再擴大，這個是沙盒的目的，也就是在裡面是安全的，而且可以計算出參數跟風險值，大家覺得這個風險值夠低了，再把它進行更大規模的運用。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "亞洲是第一個做這樣法規跟實驗？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們是第一個陸海空並行的。為什麼？因為在其他的國家，大部分都是交通部，當然交通部民用航空、車子、船當然是不同的三級機關在督導，但是從經濟部技術處的角度來看，這一些都是創新科技，因為我們是由經濟部作為主責，他們並沒有特別去陸海空，可以開一開飛起來，或者是在海裡游一游就上來，所以任何形狀都可以，只要具體有解決社會的問題而且地方政府也願意先封閉、再半開放的場域去進行實測就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "剛剛你已經說地方政府已經想要實驗，就您所知道，哪一些東西會先在封閉場域看到的實驗？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想好比像捷運，有一些地方是最後一段為何不延伸到某某地方，這個已經有很明確的通勤需求，當時捷運還沒有蓋到那裡，這樣子用無人的公用載具去鋪上最後一段捷運，這個是很常見的，因為真的解決一個地方大眾運輸的需求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，有的時候是觀光用途，但是像無人船，其實除了觀光用途之外，另外一個很重要的是，如果同樣是解決交通不便捷的地區，像我之前有去過離島，交通船只有一、兩班，如果真的發生醫療或者是什麼樣的情況，海巡的朋友要載他們，像這樣的情況下，無人船理論上可以省油料跟耗電，而且可以24小時待命，船長比較不那麼容易24小時待命，這個都是發展到很後面的事情，一開始在測試的狀態是在一個相對封閉的場域去做測試。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管是離島或者是偏鄉，其實不是非常經濟去讓一個司機一直在那邊營運，我覺得未來就會有一些商業模式出現，這一個沙盒特別強調的是，可以連商業模式一起測試，所以並不是測試期間就不能收錢做科學，而是大家願意付多少錢來搭這一輛車或者是無人船，也可以寫在計畫裡面。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "OK。像去日本的樂天，現在遇到很多問題，就是貨運，因為你知道網購，電子商務很盛行，像臺灣一例一休很多，比如雙十一快到了，沒有人送貨，所以自己在發展貨運公司，但是人畢竟不夠或者是有過勞的問題。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "像無人載具去作貨運這一件事，你有聽說臺灣有一些業者要推動？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這其實是相對成熟的技術，也就是第一輛的貨車或者是載貨的這個車還是人在開，但是後面是自動跟車，這個是相對安全的技術，因為你可以想像最前面那個踩剎車的時候，後面就用車聯網，也就是本來一個人只能開一輛載貨車，現在變成我像列車長，然後後面跟著一些自駕車跟車，這個是相對上比較成熟的運用，目前還沒有接到哪一個地方政府想要測這個，但是我想等這個載具沙盒通過之後，確實如你所講的，這個是解決過勞或者是冷鏈需要這樣的東西，也就是要運送，我覺得這個實際上是很好的運用。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "無人機大家比較關注，像 無人機的載貨，或者是Uber去載客，你覺得在臺灣會有這樣的前提，或者是有人說臺灣很小，可能不需要，臺灣的環境會不會發展到這一步？你覺得？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這個有社會需求的話，就是會冒出解決方案來，臺灣當然不能強迫任何人做任何事，像我們推行動支付是越來越方便，以前是用手錶支付，現在用手環支付，要比你拿一個塑膠卡片，像悠遊卡或者是一卡通出來才會用，不是靠政府的力量，一定要在他還不成熟的時候就去用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "無人機我覺得可能拿來載貨會比較先，第一個載人需要的安全係數是比較高的，是絕對不能出現任何災難，但是載貨相對上還好，只要避開人群聚集的地方，真的發生什麼意外，必須要緊急landing，至少那個貨比較承受得住，而人比較困難，所以我們會以載貨優先來作測試。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "這個部分還有沒有要再補充的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "剛剛您有跟幾位團隊在做這一些溝通，因為您是政府的橋梁，有沒有可能引進來臺灣？像盲人的這個東西，其實對很多盲人有幫助，他們說當地的政府要大力支持，是不是有可能透過政委去跟相關的社福引進這個東西？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想至少先讓在做這一些事的朋友知道，因為之前一直有朋友是在做盲人的數學，他們一直是希望有一套一致的方法在考數學的時候，能夠把它用聲音合成的方法，讓盲人聽得懂，但是像這一位朋友所說的，當他聽到像開根號跟幾分之幾，當複雜到一個程度的時候，就非常困難，因此確實盲人數學的這個題目，目前存在社會需要，而且是剛剛講的「數學識讀」的能力，這個是永續發展目標很重要的項目，並不是這個時候可以解決的，因為這手錶只能顯示四個數字，他們現在有在做比較大的顯示卡，我想到那個程度，如果是作為數學的教具，我覺得這個是有具體的社會需求，而且很有可能不管是透過沙盒法規調適，又或者是衛福部或者是教育部一看就知道，這個是可以的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果只是單純手錶的話，當然到底是不是必要的服務，這可能還是需要討論，但是他剛剛講解方程式的部分，我可以說確實很清楚知道是有實際的需求。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "環保的啤酒環呢？你也知道臺灣人很喜歡喝啤酒，這一個部分您覺得？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個不是特許行業，可以公平競爭。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "我說會去push嗎？或者是對這個商業，是讓啤酒公司跟他們談？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們事實上是有一個策略，他們現在想要自己去找某些特定品牌的啤酒公司，讓他跟海洋的連結比較深等等，他們也是在挑選夥伴，所以其實應該是說現在應該是在操作這樣子的概念，變成全球都在討論的議題，這樣的本業其實目前是跟很特定的一些廠商合作，並沒有立刻要跟像可口可樂公司合作的情況，因此我覺得這個還是商業的正常行為，我剛剛有滿詳細問他們要如何展店等等，所以目前聽起來並沒有馬上要在臺灣找夥伴，但是這個訊息本身是非常需要大家知道的。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "這一次因為沒有臺灣人得獎，我們辦了這個創意週，因為臺灣也滿多人發明的，像落實或者是做出產品，後續的力道比較少一點，你覺得這個是什麼樣的原因？或者是有沒有可能改變這個環境？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你說落實的……像Gogoro本身是很好的例子，那也是一個為了永續發展，為了要節能減碳做的東西，當然其實就像那一位朋友，他覺得重點還是有執行力、目的，因為有些是執行，可是就忘記了本來的目的、熱情，有些是很有熱情，但是有些是要自己最懂，沒有辦法結合各地的創意跟資源，所以最後特別強調一個謙虛，我覺得這個是很重要的，因為大部分的創業家要他有熱情是有困難的，但是在過程中去保持謙虛，這個也是我們在社會創新過程中一直在提醒的，包含我們在空總社創中心有撫育一些團隊，我們其實一直在提醒第一次、第二次、第三次及第四次的主意不會是最後的主意，只有保持謙虛才能把這個執行力放到最後成功，然後被接受的那一次，而不是把執行力全部都放在前面，前面的那一些idea也許沒有Product-Market Fit。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "政委這邊會想要推動一個創意平台，讓這一些人加入創意，就是讓創意能夠實現嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在就有一個社會創新的入口網，所以如果你找社會創新實驗的話，應該會馬上找得到，也就是「se.pdis.tw」，我們可以看到全臺灣正在做創新實驗的人有哪一些，他們正在解決哪一些社會問題，有哪一些社會創新的政府、相關的資源，包含巡迴到全臺灣的座談，每一個禮拜三來找我聊天，以及他們目前已經成功推出哪一些產品或者是服務，然後包含我們怎麼樣獎勵大家採購，獎勵採購最近一年已經破億了，就是讓社會創新的企業，真的能夠透過產品或者是服務來造成環境或者是社會問題被解決的企業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個是更有能見度，第二個是解決的問題，一下子就可以看到所有正在做環境保護議題的朋友有哪一些，第一個不會覺得孤單，第二個也會覺得進入到社區供應鏈裡面，這些都可以成為彼此的供應鏈，所以目前已經有這樣的情況；明年的工作目標之一是把它跟永續發展目標加以扣合，目前還是臺灣比較常用的分類，但是在明年會把它跟十七個永續發展目標跟一百六十九個永續發展目標細項扣合，這樣子國外正在做類似題目的人，很快找到創意的團隊，不管引進所謂的影響力投資或者是其他的資金，這個會比以前容易。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，國內有很大的公司在做企業社會責任，也有跟國外類似的創新團隊合作，也會寫在國外的報告書裡面，事實上新公司法之後，明年也全面揭露了，我們也會希望在寫這個報告書的時候，也用永續發展目標的關鍵字，或者是另外填一個表，而是在報告書裡面提到，像我們企業在地的是SDG4或者是幾，這樣其實就可以自然被這一些朋友們看到，原來這一個企業的CSR就是專門在做偏鄉的教育或者是盲人的教育，當在做同一個題目的時候，很容易就媒合起來。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "我可以再問5G的問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒問題。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "5G大家其實滿關心的，我們到底要用哪一個標準去統合5G？因為現在大家一直講5G是物聯網，到底5G要扮演什麼樣的角色？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，一個是行動寬頻，就是你剛剛講到的，一個是垂直運用，我不會說只是物聯網而已，好像有一點太窄了，其實我們剛剛講到自駕車，尤其是在一個虛擬車隊，要怎麼樣車子跟車子中間快速通過，這個是是絕對用得到5G的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實這樣的用法比起大家的手機或者是門號，其實這個需求是更強烈、快速的，因為目前並沒有一個很好的解決方案解決車子跟車子互相對面過來時，在非常短的時間內要交換大量資料的這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是現在大家覺得還好，好像再快一點、再快一點，因此垂直應用是比較大的陣營，我們也會透過剛剛講sandbox的概念，需要的人可以先框要實驗的頻譜，但是我們也知道頻譜就像公共道路，如果一直跨出去，回收會困難，因為這一些不管是無人載具或者是創新實驗有一個時間，所以就測一年，因此可以很放心地說這一段他們在用，所以給你用一年，一年之後晚上收回來，這樣就可以快速迭代過各種各樣的運用，我們這邊看到智慧交通、智慧工廠、大規模的感知網路、遠距手術醫療，或者是4、8K的影音，這個是一開始會需要低延遲、高度這兩個加起來的運用，我覺得應該會先來申請。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所有其他別的，我覺得都是比較算是在後面會看到他們測試的結果，真的冷卻做到低延遲、超高速，然後才會加入的工作裡面。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "所以就會變成試試看我們的頻譜是否適合、他們的技術是否ok，然後再開放頻譜，因為以前也有一些失敗的經驗，就是頻道開出去，然後失敗了，得到執照也很不開心，就是做賠本的聲音。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "所以現在這個5G是各個頻譜都是……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這個概念是垂直運用場域，場域是物理上隔開的，你用同一個頻譜也沒什麼，因為不會彼此干擾，你可以不同的技術來用一個頻譜，只要你的場域是隔開的，所以這個就等於同時在臺灣可以出現各種各樣的實驗申請目的，在同一個頻譜裡面，也許這裡面在測智慧交通、另外一個地方在做智慧製造，那都沒有關係，大家把這個技術的邊界先掌握好，然後再投入更多全臺灣一起做的物件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果他們發現真的沒有想像中那麼好用，不會說全台布點，然後就覺得難以回收的問題。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "這個部分還有再補充嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個大概是這樣，我們接下來會有一個5G的策略會議，到5G的SRB之後會有一個完整的論述出來，我這邊是挑一個重點講。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "可不可以再問一個問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "現在一直在講虛擬貨幣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，虛擬通貨。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "對，虛擬通貨、區塊鏈。其實各個企業都在搶，像LINE也發現一個，樂天也要做所謂樂天幣，在臺灣像您以前也是用比特幣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過沒有人真的付給我比特幣。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "就是對外。虛擬貨幣這邊，你覺得我們需去投入或者是由臺灣來主導嗎？就是讓各個企業看哪一個企業王國比較厲害，因為大家都在搶這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "虛擬通貨下的技術標準，也就是所謂的分散式帳本，這個不能說哪一國的，這個幾乎完全都是用開放源碼的方式在開發，像一開始的是比特幣，連創始人是誰，我都還不知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以其實不能說被誰掌握，那就是一個世界性的社群，這個像早期網際網路剛開始的時候，有很多不同的瀏覽協定，我們現在都在用的是www，當時還有gofer各種各樣的，只是到最後www解決最多的問題，因此就勝出了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是你說www是誰掌控嗎？其實經Tim Berners-Lee已經一開始把專利什麼的都讓出來的，所以是所有人一起開發這個東西，底層的分散式的帳本技術是全球一起共有的，並不是哪一個特別的國家或者哪一家公司的，這個是常態。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是上面的應用確實如你所說的，像跨國銀行的匯兌又或者是把它當作貨幣用，又或者是當作帳本用，像捐款到某個地方，但是我希望我的捐款是透明的，我希望那邊的會計制度跟這邊的會計制度不一樣，但是每一手的人都有留下完整的紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "又或者是也許有一些跨國工作者在簽約的時候是用本地的法律簽約，但是到那邊之後，同樣的合約文字在那邊是有不同的解釋，這樣子也會常常造成跨國工作的困難，但是你可以把這樣子合約的訊息用比較跨國通用的方式寫在區塊鏈的話，至少雇主沒有辦法否認簽的是某一張合約等等，當時看了非常多的應用層，是在共有的技術層上去做，就像當年「.com」的時候，每個人都架一個網站看看，這個部分並不是政府本身一定要做什麼，但是我覺得政府不能擋到大家的路，不擋大家的路的意思是，大家覺得每一次現有的法規好像不太夠用，很歡迎來沙盒這個平台，去提哪一個法規命令擋到我。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個概念跟行動支付一樣，有一些做戒指支付的，本來綁到3公分之內才能感應，我手很難勾到那麼近，所以就放寬到10公分，就是按照實際的需要，從社會創新來帶領法規創新。" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "所以其實環環扣下來，就是法規的問題，能夠鬆綁的話，對這一些創新，其實政府不用做太多的事，就可以很活躍起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒錯。如果我們是為單一家廠商鬆綁，大家會覺得圖利之類的，但是如果能夠說明解決什麼社會問題、達到什麼社會效益，再者在做的過程是開放式創新，不怕別人看，我們給一年左右的時間讓他試辦，所有的人從這邊學到一個東西，不管是成功或者是失敗，這一種開放式創新並不是特別在圖利。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像現在不是獨家，是一樣的道理，是給後面的人都有學習的機會，這樣我覺得政府官員比較願意放心給他實驗的可能性。這樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王雪玲", "speech": "可以，謝謝，辛苦你了。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...for sure. I’m just going to grab my notebook." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Take your time." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Great. I’ll record as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Zach probably told you the gist of what I’d like to ask about. The first thing I want to ask about is the TFD conference, which I know that you spoke at." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Were you there?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I wasn’t there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You wasn’t there?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I wasn’t there. I had some prior obligations, unfortunately, but I read an overview of what you said. You said some really interesting things. I want to know, first of all, what were your feelings about it. What was your takeaway from what was presented there?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think they recorded the conference, my talk and everything." }, { "speaker": "Zach Huang", "speech": "Yes, but I haven’t got a video." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe by the time your article appears on \"Diplomat\" there will be a video of the complete talk. The overviews are really just that, overviews, but the general idea that we should treat misinformation, disinformation, and criminal offenses differently, I think that is a message well-received." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I also get a idea that the disinformation, or organized spreading of social discord, is really riding on the lack of action around misinformation, whether it’s just individual speculation. The longer we keep from actually tackling those invitations to have a real conversation or a dialogue, the easier for the rumors to spread, especially on end-to-end encrypted channels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we proactively discuss those rumors when they still are individual speculations, then everybody gets more inoculated and become psychologically more safe around each other. When conspiracy theories that are organized start to spread, it’s like in immunology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you have a population and a significant proportion of them is already inoculated, then the virus of the mind, or biologically, it’s very unlikely to actually spread and cause a epidemic. That’s I think the main takeaway, both my message and the metaphor that was echoed by other people in the workshop." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is something that people are generally willing to see this as a metaphor of. That’s part of my slide." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Of course, you’ve been a big proponent of transparency. You’ve talked about the convergence between open governance, open data, projects that you’ve been a part of, like vTaiwan and g0v." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And Join platform and PO network, everything, office hour, also." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You’ve talked about the link between that and building a sense of public trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Can you talk a bit more about the importance of having that in Taiwan’s democracy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think when people speculate about the government, it’s mostly because the government did not share their context, the why of policymaking. People see the result of policymaking, that’s to say the policies. Very rarely do the government, prior to this administration, share in a substantive way the policymaking context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My experiment is twofold. The first is for all the ministries, everybody publishes what they are actively working on, online, so that people can see all the budget items. For each of those 1,300 different projects, people can have a real conversation around the project that they care deeply about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you can see, people mostly care about long-term care, social housing, and things like that. When people, for example, look at one execution plan and the procurements and research that this plan is currently going, it is a ongoing conversation that allows anyone to ask even very..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very not clearly worded speculations, but it reflects a real authentic worry, in that the information disclosed is not written in a frankly enough way for people to easily absorb. The career public service at hand then provided a far easier-to-understand overview and links to further material and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This bypasses the parliamentarians so the other people can have a direct conversation with public servants in real time and in public. For the public servants, they only have to reply once anyway, [laughs] so they don’t have to explain over 40 calls. That’s one thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Another thing is that people mostly care about their domestic municipal or city-level issues. By partnering with the municipalities and cities we make sure that people can participate, not just on national-level issues, but also on participatory budgeting and other, like e-petition, iVoting, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once people get into the habit of visualizing the budget, seeing something that’s lacking in it, proposing something, gets allocated, the budget, to actually do something that they collaboratively discuss with people, then they get into this mindset that maybe public servants are a bunch of professionals that really care about public welfare." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People did not have face-to-face or real-time, in-the-public conversations about them, and so the public service also feel really isolated from people. This is not just for the psychology of people, in general, but also for the psychology of career public service in that they can show their professionalism and also take credit in the nice ideas that they have opined." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end, those two sides -- one is an ongoing discussion, the other is a citizen-initiated idea -- they converge toward mutual trust in the sense that people feel that if there’s anything unclear or anything, a rumor that’s about to spread, they can reliably get something from someone who they have met with, or at least interacted with, so the rumor has no place to spread." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like if you have a good friend who you are meeting every week, if you hear gossip about that friend, of course, you will ask that friend. If that friend takes a quarter, [laughs] like three months, to get back anything to you, and only in cryptic, 140-letter messages, then, of course, there’s a lot of room for speculations, too." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You have your own ideology of radical transparency. You’ve described it as a proactive approach, rather than reactive. When you’re talking about ministers and the government forging connections with people, do you see this as a way that you can personally build trust with your constituency?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Can you talk a bit more about how that, itself, is its own defense against misinformation? I think you mentioned at the conference that people would wonder if you could track their phones by GPS." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With GPS, yes. Mostly if it’s come from my name or a photo, of course, people can project anything on it because they don’t have a face-to-face real-time interaction with me. I built this very inviting space, the Social Innovation Lab, and invite people to meet me every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. People can come and have a real visit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I regularly publish not just a transcript, but also a video or live stream of my visits, so it becomes impossible for people to pretend [laughs] that Audrey is this...There’s this latest parody of those rumors that says \"Audrey is a Omega-level mutant.\" It’s a very Marvel worldview." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, once you have actually met me and attended those mini-hackathons or office hours, then you can find out for yourself who I am and the kind of work I do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The point here is not just for the people who pay me a visit or the people who I tour around Taiwan to visit. I give about 10 speeches and regional visits every week. It’s not just the person I met, but also through radical transparency, live broadcasting, and publishing online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone who attended can also tell their friends, \"Audrey is like this, and here’s the YouTube link for you to see.\" That builds, again, the authenticity of dialogue. When I give a lecture, for example, I almost never lecture. I just let people ask me any questions. My agenda is literally crowd-sourced [laughs] with the people, not for the people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That builds trust because then people can see that I’m ready to answer anything people care about. If I don’t know, I just say I don’t know. That, again, builds trust, because then people won’t have this imaginative idea that a politician knows everything [laughs] and is capable of answering everything. People can see, transparently, my limit and my current endeavors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just this morning we had this conference on platform economy. They asked me very hard questions. By going through them all, it is also a way for people to see each other’s feelings and how they resonate. That, again, is very important. It’s not centered around me. I’m a channel or a chat room moderator [laughs] so that people can see what everybody has to say as well." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You mentioned getting very hard questions. I know that you’ve talked a lot about how you engage with trolls." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, hugging trolls." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You also mentioned that this is important to engage in the fight against disinformation. It’s very important to go after people who may propagate disinformation to understand their motives. What is your process for doing that? People question \"What are the motives of these people?\" You take a proactive approach to that. Can you describe a bit of what that is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Troll Hugging 101? People who troll, that is to say, they post ad hominem attacks or other inflammatory messages, they may be organized, of course, but on the social media, you can check very quickly that maybe they’re just individuals acting in a very attention-craving manner." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My theory is that mostly they’re people who don’t perhaps get sufficient social interactions, like hugs or kisses, offline, and then they have to find the physical equivalent of relationships online. They found out very quickly that the surest way to get people’s attention online is to put down something inflammatory and for people to respond." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the relationships built this way are transactional, meaning that the next day they still wake up feeling very empty. It’s not a long-term relationship. They’ll have to find some other bulletin board to troll, and then get the junk food-like attention that doesn’t sustain them well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Troll hugging, very simply, is that I look at a message. I only reply to the fraction of it that are actually constructive and that are authentic. Meaning, they reveal some part of themselves. I ignore everything else, -- ad hominem attacks, name-calling, whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This serves two purpose. One, it shows everybody watching the social media screen that if they want attention, they only have to propose something that’s constructive. Second, it shows that name-calling and whatever doesn’t really work on me. It’s as if I don’t see them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, this requires a psychological safety on my part. When I see any word that makes me upset, I play some music, I make some tea, and basically re-associate those words with pleasant memories, sensations. The next time I see that word I feel pretty good, actually. It is a kind of cognitive behavior therapy on my own psychology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With this psychological safety, engaging with only the authentic part, more often than not the trolls are encouraged to reveal more and more of what they actually are worried about or anxious about and, in the same pattern, let everybody else learn from their sharing of authentic experiences. At the end of it, I would then invite them to my Social Innovation Lab, where I will actually, physically give them a hug." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By revealing their authentic selves, they become constructive participants in the community not necessarily with me, but with me as a focal point, so that people can see, when you see ad hominem attacks or whatever inflammatory messages, it’s possible to respond in this way that increase public solidarity and trust." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "When you talk about the psychology behind trolls, the state of mind that they’re coming from, those who make ad hominem attacks, do you think that when we talk about disinformation and messages that are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Intentionally fake?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "And that have the potential to attack a social cleavage. I know that you’ve said there can be a difference in their sourcing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Between misinformation, which is more like individual speculation, and disinformation, which is organizing intentionally." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There may be another difference between someone who is doing that out of their frustration, as you said, or out of their..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Trolling, basically." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Someone who’s trolling or someone who is potentially part of a more organized campaign. When you analyze those respective motives, as there’s been a lot of talk about that, I wonder what you think when you look at that and try and understand the motives of someone part of one of these organized campaigns. Do you approach that in the same way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. If it’s individual speculations or trolls, they usually have a distinct pattern, in that they are acting out of a need of, as I said, attention-seeking behavior. This is very different from a organized disinformation campaign, where you see a lot of repeated messages, variations on the same theme, ignoring of the context, and basically sowing discord, fear, uncertainty, and doubt." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say there’s a qualitative difference in their behavior. With some experience, you can tell which is which very easily. I don’t waste time on the organized disinformation. They may be automated bots, for all I know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still, I think it’s a good intervention point. They are actually attacking something that we have solid information on. I can also piggyback on their campaign and provide useful hyperlinks for people to check the facts for themselves. Sometimes it helps to reply, not me, but generally, with this alternate agenda chatter. Is it true or not? Is it actually like that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t cost anything. It’s literally a split second, but then it makes something that is more like real-time strategy game into more of a turn-based game, where people take a deep breath and start doing the fact-checking work. Instead of being taken by the provocation or the outrage, people can stop and think, \"Oh, is it true or not?\"" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Can you talk a bit more about the Executive Yuan’s fact-checking website?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean the Real-time Clarification?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "What would you call it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s not a fact-checking website at all. It’s just Real-time Clarification. It makes fact-checkers’ jobs easier by supplying our viewpoints, but it’s not fact-checking. It says \"Real-time News Clarification.\" We didn’t say anything about fact-checking on this website. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sorry, what was your next question?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Can you tell me a bit about what led to its creation and the metrics behind it? You’ve mentioned the average response time is..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Five hours, four hours. This started in the National Development Council’s page at www.gov.tw. The Executive Yuan this year decides that this is not just the ministries’ business. The Executive Yuan, itself, would also like to contribute to Real-time Clarification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s two stages. The first one, which was May last year or something, where we, in the Cabinet meeting, talk about misinformation. I did make a suggestion that each ministry need to make a real-time, open, and structured response whenever there is a trending misinformation about that particular ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the ministries took heed of the suggestion, and the National Development Council worked to aggregate all those real-time clarifications into a single RSS feed and a single point of presence on the National Development Council." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This year, it was promoted into something that is administration, Yuan level. The Yuan-level people also posted their own responses, in addition to syndicating all the different ministries. That was done by Minister without Portfolio and spokesperson Hsu Kuo-yung before he went on and become the Minister of the Interior. That’s this year’s development." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Regardless of whether it’s ministries level or ministries plus Yuan level, the motivation is always to contribute the part of the world that we see in a real-time way, so that when people see some speculations or rumors in morning news they get into the habit that waiting until noon, and then most likely there will be a clarification from the government’s side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re totally not saying the media should not deal with speculation. We’re totally not saying the media should wait until noon to publish. It’s not like that. In a paper-based world there is this layout, balanced report, but in the Internet age, it’s impossible because people would take something out of context and spread it, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re looking for temporally balanced reporting, where after a few hours we have our own piece. Of course, the civil society can then follow up with their own conversations. This is called clarification. It’s not called fact-checking." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It’s more of a mechanism for the government to provide its viewpoint if there’s something that it feels that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, proactively." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right, and be proactive. Can you explain the distinction between an initiative like this? Is it a way for ministries to be more proactive than they have been? Already, they’ll put out press releases or responses to times that they’re mentioned in the news. Is this just a way for that to be expedited or is it distinct from what they’re already doing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s mostly expediting existing infrastructure. The other two point, open and structured, is also important, structured, meaning that people can use machine-to-machine technology to turn it into a newsfeed, a Twitter bot, a LINE bot, or anything that can easily let people search among those clarifications." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It gives, for example, search engines a single place to index so that when you type in those controversial words, it’s more likely for these to show up. It also gives independent fact-checkers, like the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center, it could be cited as a source." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just a press release without any metadata about what this press release is responding to, then it’s hard for [laughs] the Fact-Checking Center to mark this source and that source as adding different pieces to one another. By adding structured data, in a open fashion, we enable fact checkers to work with these as material." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, if these are wrong, the fact checkers can also use other sources to correct these as well. That’s why they’re independent fact-checkers." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Would you check something like that? If, for example, the Taiwan Fact-Check Center fact-checked one of those items and they generally take a little bit longer, would you go back and potentially correct what you have up there?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nobody gets every fact completely, especially when there’s a public official being quoted in some way. Then the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center actually goes and checks this rumor. The Director of the Social Affairs Bureau in Taichung in a City Council inquiry says something about the gender field in the National Identity Card is going to move from male and female into L, G, B, and T so everybody had to identify as L, G, B, or T." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is obviously misinformation, [laughs] but it has the potential of growing into disinformation because some people who has an agenda would amplify this message. So the Taichung City issued a response saying it’s been taken out of context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It takes the Fact-Checking Center, and that, because of their fact-checking work, prompted the real-time responses from the Taichung City, from Minister of Interior, and so on. Very quickly people converge on what existing situation is with the National Identity Card, as well as where we are considering or where we’re going. Of course, we’re not going to change the gender field [laughs] to L, G, B, and T." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Fact-Checking Center serves as a midpoint between the various sources and the media that’s maybe about to amplify this issue because it’s very clickbait-y, but supplementing it with something that is authentic and something that people have generally verified independently." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You mentioned when information goes from misinformation to disinformation. You recently talked about the process that it goes through. For example, it will often start in PTT as a testing tube of sorts, and then it will graduate to a closed network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Different segments of a closed network, like LINE, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Cofacts is on LINE. You mentioned that the website communicates in some way with LINE bots." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The LINE bot, Cofacts, the most important feature is that it gives all the trending rumors a URL. Sometimes they are able to spread because they know that these are closed channels. People already have the inclination of believing things framed in a certain way, regardless of the truth of this message." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "However, once this becomes public knowledge, be able to be found by search engine, and people can cite this URL as a social object, people even paste this on Facebook, on PTT, and so on, and have a real discussion around this spreading rumor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It creates a kind of inoculation because then the rumor itself becomes something that people can inspect. It’s like vaccination being part of the virus, where people can absorb that into the immune system without disrupting the immune system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can get psychologically prepared that they are going to see a variation of this quickly, publicly, once they finish the [laughs] closed beta. This has the effect of revealing all the closed betas into something that’s public. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other thing is that it also lets us know how to amplify a message, like this says Foxconn is rolling out a whale-shaped grant [laughs] to give scholarship funds, and please share it widely, because maybe you can help some college students who are poor, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This gets viral, but this is actually a real thing [laughs] from Foxconn. It’s actually true, but then people spreading this truth now knows that, if you package it in this way, it goes viral. It serves a educational purpose, as well." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "When you talk about the way that fake news...I know that you don’t use that term." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I wanted to ask that. Can you describe your opposition to the term?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Especially it’s Mandarin form, 假新聞, it has two connotations. It could be a journalistic output that is misinformed, which we will call a journalistic misinformation. Or it could mean something like a content form that’s intentional spreading of falsehood, but framed as a journalistic output, while holding them self to no journalistic standards, like pretending to be journalism, which is, of course, one form of disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These two endeavors, they have nothing in common, but then 假新聞 kind of describe both. It’s impossible to have a real discussion if it encompasses two things that has no overlap." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I talked with Dr. Ko Wen-je in Taipei City, he thinks \"fake news\", should refer to journalistic output that is true, but the editor chose a clickbait title that doesn’t reflect the content, which is, again, very usual, a very common situation now. He thinks that is fake news. Without operational definition, [laughs] it’s impossible to have a discussion, which is why I don’t use the F word." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "We’ve seen quite a bit of that in the US, too." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’m going to go back to the question I was going to ask before. When you are talking about how mis- or disinformation progresses, where it can start in a more closed network, like a PTT, first of all, does this apply both to mis- and disinformation? Do you think that disinformation, content farms, for instance, will test their material in a certain way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "How do you generally observe these trends when you’re trying to understand, for example, how a content farm looks to penetrate segments of Taiwanese society?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just standard A/B testing. You put all the messages to all the channels, [laughs] and then you see who responds. All those ideas that goes viral, they have something common in it in that it provokes people’s outrage, fear, uncertainty, or doubt. Those are the emotions that makes people creative and change the text." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a chain mail. It changes. It mutates by itself. For people showing discord, it’s first important to see what existing misinformation, speculations. That creates an opening for disinformation because there’s already this sentiment there. You just need to ignite it, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that you need to test it with people who are already closely knit, who are ready to give variations on a theme. [laughs] Once you put that seed of disinformation to them, they get creative and creates various variations. You can witness which one becomes viral, and then just choose that one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is really just like a genetic mutation of a virus. You just pick the most powerful strain, spread it even more widely, amplify it up, and maybe find a traditional media that are susceptible to this message to report about it, and therefore amplify, again, this message. That’s the common trajectory." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Just because there’s been so much discussion lately of disinformation that specifically generates from Chinese content farms, how do you analyze the trend, if anything? In the past weeks or months, as public discussion has ratcheted upon this, how would you analyze that? It’s been discussed as a threat, for instance, that disinformation from China specifically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, it’s easy to obscure IP addresses. I don’t rely on IP addresses specifically, but it’s me speaking personally. There’s various tools for doing this kind of analysis. [laughs] One of them is called analysis.tw. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a public tool where you can see the trending keywords, the trending themes, how likely one, if mentioning any particular words, is more likely to be viral. Which are Facebook-oriented, which are oriented on traditional media, how those two cross-pollinate each other, and I wouldn’t say content farm exclusively, but which website designed to amplify such a media discussion are gaining by working on which topics?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many analysis websites. Of course, just as in Cofacts, we see increase of political maneuver or political subjects the closer we get to the election, but that is to be expected. After the election, maybe the political nature will decline, and we’ll back to the usual \"what food, when eaten with another food, causes what disease?\" rumors. [laughs] At the moment, as you can see, it is quite political in nature." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Of course. The first thing you mentioned was the message at the conference you attended of not treating this...You mentioned misinformation, and I just want to clarify misinformation and disinformation being not treated with criminality..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unintentional individualistic and organizing intentional." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’ll let you clarify because you talked about criminality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s something else entirely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s criminal offense like intimidating the public, intimidating individuals, and, during election session, intending to get someone not elected. These are existing criminal offenses. It’s regardless of whether it’s online or offline. If you take a speakerphone and start shouting things that intimidates the public, [laughs] that is punishable, using the same criminal code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s years of experience of the criminal justice system dealing with that. In the Sunflower Movement, there’s many people who’ve become frustrated of the Occupy, and there are people who just posted publicly or in discussion groups about their intention to harm the Occupiers one way or another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because Occupy is a large bunch of people -- they have no commonalities [laughs] except they go to the Occupy site -- it’s construed as intimidating the public because they didn’t say which individual person they’re about to harm. They just said, publicly, that they intend to harm the Occupiers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are all convicted and punished as intimidating the public. It’s not like the law enforcement doesn’t know how to do these investigations. Of course, during election session, but also during an epidemic like SARS, it is also a criminal offense to spread disinformation intentionally to get people into harm by getting them infected." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All these, we have existing legal code to do that. I put this slide just to mention that when disinformation ignites people’s outrage, there’s some individuals who are so taken to this message so that they will escalate again the level to that of intimidating the public. Then they become subject to criminal offense investigations." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You’re mentioning existing regulations. There was a Ministry of Justice report that said there’s unequivocal evidence of Chinese content farms being used to divide Taiwan. This precipitated discussions to amend a National Security Act. First of all, what is your reaction to how this discussion has played out where further legal changes are being discussed on top of what exists?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are already pushing a new act to the Parliament. I think it’s finished the first reading. It’s the Digital Communications Act. That lays the foundation, the basis, of all the follow-up discussions and enforcement because the DCA establishes a equivalence between offline actions and online actions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It make sure that regardless of where the judge finished their education, [laughs] they will rule the same way [laughs] for the online behavior to correspond to offline behavior." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While the DCA itself carries no penal code, it makes it possible to bridge existing criminal, civil, and other codes into online communication platforms. Before it was kind of a gray area because nobody is quite sure what these actions mean in a online context. The DCA serves as the foundational law for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After the legislation passes the DCA, maybe because the DCA itself says for any emergent issue there should be a multi-stakeholder conversation with the civil society, the social sector, and international actors about how to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The DCA is one of the outputs of the vTaiwan process. vTaiwan, through this process, has already talked about nonconsensual intimate images or revenge porn. Such pictures are a violation of the criminal code. There’s no doubt about it at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The question is to which degree is, for example, search engine is willing to have a take-down process. Maybe the link is still there, but if you type the keyword, you can no longer search those images, like Google Image Search, maybe Facebook, and things like that. It’s a truly multistakeholder thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not something that we can just code and anticipate all the new forms of digital communications that violates the criminal code in the future. We need to have a process to get the stakeholders to the same table, talk about what they’re willing and committed to, and let everybody else who have some doubts about this process to challenge it and iterate toward it. That is the DCA." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "The way you describe it, it doesn’t have a penal code. It sets a foundation for future conversations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also links the penal code that’s basically regulating the existing offline world, saying, \"These behaviors have their equivalents online in such-and-such way.\" These behaviors online now can be sued in the existing penal, criminal, or civil code. It’s a bridging act." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Going back to there was an earlier proposal floated by one legislator in June to assign fines or potential detention to those who were spreading disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re referring to the Social Order Maintenance Act?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Yes. That proposal was made. There have been discussions about amending the NSA. It raises a question on whether disinformation is a matter of national security. Do you consider that a matter of national security?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If all the disinformations escalate into criminal offense, of course, it will be a threat to national security. If we see Internet as a place to sow discord and grow mistrust, of course, it automatically become a national security issue whenever there is a disinformation campaign." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The whole point of the DCA, of the open government, and of media literacy, fact-checking, is that we make the online environment psychologically safe so that it will not become a national security threat. If you ask me whether it has the potential, of course, it has the potential, but the whole point is not to let those potential be realized." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There have been other acts, for example, the hate speech act in Germany, the NetzDG Act. The rollout was a bit, I’ll just say, controversial. There was quite a bit of dissension." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There has been in Taiwan, too. There’s a clear worry, which plenty of government officials have expressed openly, that if you go too far, you could infringe on free speech. There’s a line that can or can’t be crossed. As you are, for example, approaching disinformation as a criminal offense, how does this..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I’m just saying we’re setting up the psychological safety so disinformation does not lead to people committing criminal offenses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we haven’t done our media literacy job -- and by \"we\" I mean all the educators and all the citizens, not just government -- if we haven’t done a good job, and individuals are provoked enough that they commit a criminal offense, either online or offline, then it’s very sad, but it is a criminal offense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not like we criminalized disinformation. It’s disinformation leading people to commit actions that are criminal offense. It is not like we’re going backward to revert into a place that has restricted freedom of speech. What we’re saying is that freedom of speech need to be done in a space that are constitutive to free speculations that are met with real-time clarifications and dialogue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see misinformation as a invitation to dialogue, and if that dialogue happens, disinformation has less room to grow and less likely to lead to people committing criminal acts. That’s the whole point." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Through promoting media literacy, having these open conversations in real time is something that you’ve referred to. I think that’s really important because an attribute we’ve seen of disinformation is how quickly it spreads." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "The response has to be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The truth need to spread faster." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right. In Taiwan, Cofacts is a really innovative tool. It’s quite unique, something the rest of the world I think is beginning to learn from." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think they’re exporting it." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "At the same time, the scope is quite limited. As we know about disinformation, it can penetrate channels that may not have exposure to know how to use Cofacts or to wait for the response to come in. The same for the Executive Yuan’s self-clarification. Is it a priority to make the response faster or broader so that it reaches more people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say it’s both. If people intentionally spread disinformation, there’s also people intentionally spreads clarification. All the clarification that we do in the government, all the work by the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center or Cofacts are natural resources because they’re in the open. Everything has a URL. You can quote anything. Wait, that’s journalism, right?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you want to do journalism, that’s a lot more material for a journalist to work with and have a thriving journalism that people can trust. I think it’s very important because then they would check if this comes from a reputable source like...I was about to say \"The News Lens,\" but you are working for \"The Diplomat\" at the moment, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyway, a trustworthy source. Then they learn that they don’t have to rely on content farm to get the information that they care about. Reputable news sources will also give them, in real time, the content, which is more reliable and may be framed in a way that is as addictive as the content farms, that is eyeball-catching as the content farms that, nevertheless, carries what was true about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, Cofacts can tell you whether that package is successfully viral or not. [laughs] This a virtuous cycle ecosystem that reaffirms the importance of quality journalism." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I want to go back to the cabinet clarification website. I know that one of the main tenets of fighting disinformation, from a government standpoint, is to respond in a very calculated and correct way. You don’t want to overstep. You don’t want to be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fan the flame. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Exactly. You don’t want to be too assertive in the response and make it seem like it’s just the government giving its side or trying to stamp out dissent. The cabinet website, for someone who does see it, and I know you don’t consider it as a fact-checking website..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s not." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...that’s a really important distinction to make. If one does, then it seems like that’s not the role..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not fact-checking, no." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’m wondering, when you frame the answers and how that website is presented to the people, how do you avoid a perception of that being the voice of the government trying to set the tone of discussion?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You raise a really good point. At the moment this clarification actually addresses misinformation, disinformation, and crime. [laughs] It is not clear unless you actually click into it to see it was responding to a legit speculation, like the new identity card website is very slow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"It’s not actually very slow. It just changed its website address, but the old one, the redirection was really kind of slow. We’re sorry about it and it’s been fixed.\" This is not disinformation at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a legit speculation about what’s happening with the Ministry of Interior. The Minister of Interior very quickly gave this response, which is commendable, and the journalists cited of them. I wouldn’t say it’s fact-checking, because the initial thing that prompted is just widespread speculation about what’s happening. That’s not a organized disinformation campaign at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are some response to disinformation campaigns, and there are even some cases where the ministry decide to sue because the thing they’re responding to is already a criminal offense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One clear message I heard from the workshop, from the journalists, is that it will help if we color-code or somehow tag the clarifications so people know that it is just a normal clarification discussion. Or whether it is like Defcon level, like whether this is a organized disinformation campaign and we’re seriously answering that, or where some people already committed criminal offense and this is a notice that this is being sued." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Color-coding it is a really good idea that we really should work with the MIS Department to implement. Expect that to be rolled out some time. I cannot commit to a timeline." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But yeah, we’ll do this." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Would you say that, aside from making it more easy to understand..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The nature." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...the color-coding -- the nature of what you’re doing -- that would also help clarify to someone? I imagine that someone who’s starkly opposed to the current government may see that as a mouthpiece of the government, so to speak. I know that’s a perception that you want to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sometime, it’s a mouthpiece of the government, just like this one here. This particular clarification is a mouthpiece [laughs] to the government, but there’s no enemy here. There’s no opponent. I think, in those cases, it’s perfectly fine for this place to be a mouthpiece of the government. People want to know what’s happening, but there’s no perpetrator in this case, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you said, when there is a legitimate hard question, this should not be used as a way to dodge hard questions or to paint the people who pose hard questions as somewhat antagonistic to the public. This is why it’s important to color-code their responses so people don’t confuse the different ways for our responses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of it, we’re not calling it fact-checking. The fact-checkers are free to check these. If we make a mistake there, it could be fact-checked." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Could a tool like this be used to dodge hard questions if it were in the wrong hands or if it were in the hands of someone who was, for example, feeling a lot of pressure or had a motive to get a certain message out?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re a opposition party, you’re free to run exactly the same system. Nothing in it is exclusively administrative power. All this is is a syndicated blog. That technology was around for like 15 years. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. If we say we blog or micro-blog regularly, this is not a abuse of administrative power because any opposition party can do exactly the same." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I want to ask about how there have been the proposal suggestions made, I believe to your office as well, about finding a way to regulate or to engage with social media corporations." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "When we speak about disinformation, there is plenty of dialogue around the fact that these companies could do more that they are not doing now, but it is difficult to engage them in that way. Has your office had any discussions about either regulating those corporations or engaging with them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we had a wide discussion around one particular thing that happened on Facebook, which was people selling counterfeit goods through automated bots that’s paid on delivery. You discover it’s a brick, but there’s nobody to return to. It’s a popular e-petitions subject. We had a long five-hour discussion with all the petitioners and all the different ministries related to it, and in a way that are totally transparent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this is very important because then it shows exactly what Facebook needs to do, which is to join the local e-commerce association, and then respond substantially to people’s call to more clearly mark the advertisers that has a legit company registration versus ones that does not, and work with the people on the early warning system if someone is abusing its chatbot technology to con people essentially." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By using standard Internet governance methodologies, we’re able to just talk with Facebook in a very candid fashion. They agreed to join the E-Commerce Association, set up an office in Taiwan, and basically talk with people and figure out ways to prevent counterfeit goods." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the model of our communication. It’s always transparent, always in the open, always in response to a real social demand. So far, Facebook, in particular, has been quite responsive in providing technological or social solutions to these things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Frankly speaking, I think those AI-based con bots there is also new to them. [laughs] It’s a new invention in this area back in their time. They’re also very interested in working with the consumer right protection agencies to learn more about these things because these things tend to spread." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s proven to work here, of course, it will spread to other jurisdictions. Facebook also want to be prepared, so it’s to the benefit of everybody." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I think you mentioned supporting bots that reveal dark rumors at the conference." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "First of all, you’re referring to things such as Cofacts when you say that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Is there any way that they can find additional sources of funding? I know that that’s a constant issue where Cofacts is a volunteer-based..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’ll have to speak to the Open Culture Foundation. OCF is the main umbrella organization where these civic tech projects receive grants, actually. I think they got the grant from the OCF, so you can talk to OCF. I know about Cofacts mostly because they develop in the open, and so I just follow their [laughs] GitHub issues. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know about its technological and social operation and the thoughts behind those designs. It’s all on Hackfoldr, HackMD, and the g0v community. Honestly, I don’t quite know about its funding situation, so that’s a OCF question." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "For what social media can do, you mentioned how you’ve engaged them with selling counterfeit goods." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And non-consensual intimate images and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I know that when they have ventured into native fact-checking, for example, or trying to promote fact-checked results, when I talked to TFC, they said demarcating whether something has been fact-checked or whether there’s still questions -- in search results, for instance -- could be a productive move." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think Google implemented that, but Facebook has not yet." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Those proposals, like when Facebook changed its news feed algorithms, it brought a whole host of critics saying that Facebook was suppressing free speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The way Google shows it, very simply, is that you can search for something, but then it supply you additional information that are supported by fact-checkers, which, I think, is a very balanced way." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "At this point, do you think that the social media companies are doing enough?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a social media company question. [laughs] Just like junk mail, just like spam, it’s never enough until the cost of sending spam is raised to a point where it’s no longer financially rewarding to send spam. Of course, every contribution helps." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Until we have a reliable spam filter and a reliable Spamhaus project that can identify the people who make the kit to do massive spamming and identify the signatures of those spammers’ lines of operation and, through a combination of technology and community involvement, surface those dark rumors [laughs] of a spam-generation process..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a process that I personally took part in. It took us maybe four years to make junk mail no longer a national security concern." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was in early 2000. We’re seeing something very similar with disinformation. We see in the early spam wars days, sometimes people just set up their own email servers and filter out everything that’s unsolicited and, of course, save themselves, [laughs] but not necessarily everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They also serve as honeypots, because they know then anyone who send email to that address is probably spam because they’re not personally using those addresses. There are also ways to waste spammers’ time by automatically having bots engage with spammers and things like that. There’s a whole industry of these." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now we’re seeing, in Facebook, for example, individuals who don’t feel Facebook is doing enough. They can just install Feedless. Once you install Feedless on your phone, [laughs] you don’t have a feed anymore. [laughs] It’s just social and not media. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can still follow your friends, have chats, visit fan pages or groups, and run events. It’s just you don’t see anything unexpected. [laughs] On the desktop, I use, personally, the News Feed Eradicator, which is exactly the same thing. That’s a easy solution. For anyone who feel Facebook is not doing enough, just install Feedless or News Feed Eradicator." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’ve seen tools like that too. I think there’s one called Facebook Purity that I’ve seen before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Something I definitely want to take away here is, due to the Ministry of Justice, its recent comments, there have been lots of increased..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Discussions." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...speculation talking about disinformation specifically coming from China to the point where I have come across the concern that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That we’re going backward on speech freedom. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’ve come across that. That’s one of them. Let’s start there. First of all, what would your words be to members of the general public who may begin to suspect that that’s going to happen, especially those who are already a bit skeptical of government, in general?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s natural for them to speculate, and it’s great that we can talk candidly about we take pride in being the only green dot there. [laughs] We’re totally not reverting back. No, we’re not infringing on the freedom of speech because it’s national identity. Whatever existing criminal code, existing ways of enforcing things, we are not taking any aim to prosecute more people because of their speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re making sure that people get real-time replies, through journalistic channels like you, on what the minister is thinking, like me, [laughs] and then get people into the habit of speculation leads to clarification, rather than speculation leads to inflammatory messages that eventually lead people to commit criminal acts." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Let’s go back. For the general public, for people who are critically questioning where things come from, I know that you’ve talked so much about education in media literacy. I understand that new curriculum are being introduced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Being rolled out on the first grade of primary, the first grade of high school, the first grade of senior high." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That’s certainly a prescription for younger generations, something that has been called for. I would ask what is the most immediate prescription for the adult population? When I speak for the adult population, I know that you can’t necessarily reach everyone through methods like vTaiwan through open government..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or Join or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...for the less tech literate people or for the people who don’t engage as much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Join has 5 million users out of 23 million in Taiwan, a lot of retired people also, but we don’t pretend that we reach everybody. It’s one-quarter of the population." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I know you will make a distinction here between mis- and disinformation. A lot of things spread very quickly because there is a motivation in media to get things out before the competitor, to get things out very quickly, which happens a lot here in Taiwanese media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The news cycle is shortening." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Yes, getting shorter and shorter. Do you have, or does the government have any role in engaging with the media? Of course, not to tell them what to publish and what not to publish, but to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe be some standard operation procedure of what fact-checking steps, which sources to look, before you complete a story. Make it effortless almost for the media to get the latest updates from various governmental channels. I think the NCC are doing this. They are making a SOP for the popular media, or mainstream media as you said, to basically go through these steps before publishing real-time news." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, it’s an advisory. You don’t have to. There is no penal code in not following that. The hope is that if sufficient amount of journalists signs up to these newsmaking methods, then it will actually make them more reputable. The people who are not willing to do bare minimum fact-checking before publishing journalism [laughs] will get less reputable by the citizens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end, it’s the citizenry. If the citizenry prefers quality journalism, then quality journalism will thrive at the end. That’s why media literacy is, I think, the root solution." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "To help citizenry prefer quality journalism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, to have a citizenry that can be a very active participant in their journalistic process as well, to be willing to share what they have, their authentic feelings or experiences, and contribute to the newsmaking process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people are passive like in the old broadcast TV days, then they remain a consumer of news. That creates a place of mind where they become much more susceptible of what the news channel, what a broadcast or radio says must be true to a degree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they participate in the newsmaking itself through blogging or whatever, microblogging, and then can have a real dialogue with fellow citizens interested in newsmaking. They could be a volunteer to the Cofacts. They could be people who inform the Taiwanese Fact-Checking Center." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They feel they’re part of the news process, and therefore knows far more than any textbook can teach them about the framing, about the things that journalism standards are for. What does it mean to check your sources and things like that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by participatory design in the new curriculum, our commitment is to get people into the mind of news workers. You can call it journalistic thinking, media thinking, [laughs] like design thinking or computational thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once people are of that mind frame, then they become much less susceptible to the top-down broadcast-era messaging. There’s less loopholes, in their mind, for the disinformation to target." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Could the government ever play a role in explicitly funding programs, beyond education of course, but programs to, for example, heighten the familiarity and fluency of fact-checking operations in newsrooms?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Is there a way that the government could actually...a lot of times, time is an issue, but money is the biggest one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also technology. If you have to do everything by hand, you cannot check all those sources." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right. Is there a role for the government to potentially fund programs like this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s the perfect job of the Ministry of Education. If you can teach students, new teachers, and existing teachers who are converting to this digital education stuff how to make news together, surely these games are a gamified way to teach about newsmaking can be converted into something that’s useful for real journalists as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I personally translated several interactive games from Nicky Case. One explicitly talks about how disinformation spreads, one about how social media destroys trust, one about segregation, and one about the framing effect of media and how media messages kind of perpetuate the world views by itself. I personally translate some of these." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these are excellent ways for children and adults alike to interactively enhance their media literacy. Some variation of these games can also be a useful visualization tool, useful exploration tool for journalists to link the work that they see together and engage the users in a more interactive and immersive way, so there is more bandwidth between a journalist and their readers, and their readers can interactively understand a piece of report." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We see that in many new media now in Taiwan as well. They use this kind of gamified journalism to let the viewer be a participant in a story. We see that in the Western media as well. There is a lot of people experimenting with even virtual reality or whatever to increase the immersiveness of the news as a channel." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are all what the Ministry of Economy, Ministry of Education and so on, they’re heavily invested in as a pedagogical tool, but the same technical improvements of immersive experiences can also be used by journalists to increase the efficacy of their storytelling to people." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Having interactive games, that’s a very interesting approach. Definitely, I’ll check that out later. Having more immersive, engaging experiences is helping. I think that is also a way of building trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And I think it’s the future of journalism." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That brings me back to an anecdote I’ve heard about. It was one of the speakers at the g0v summit, Scott Hubli. He told me about how another frontier of disinformation is things like virtually manipulated images, for example, taking a politician..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deepfake?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Yeah, deepfake. When you spoke about immersive experiences, I wonder, is that is something that you think is potentially accelerating at the same speed? Is it something you’ve witnessed a lot of or that you fear for the future?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all. I give out a free model of a high-quality 3D scan of myself and there is sufficient amount of my transcripts and recordings so that, by now, anyone can synthesize anything said by me. I don’t worry at all. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s valuable is not me speaking some words. What’s valuable is an authentic account, whether on Twitter, Facebook or through email, that I respond very quickly and even face-to-face in my office hours. It’s those relationships, those interactions that count, not the individual artifacts of interaction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I believe people find me very reachable, so if they see me saying some words on a random YouTube video...That actually happened. Someone took my avatar and my name and posted something about the election in YouTube. People generally would just say, \"You know, Audrey will not say something like that,\" because they have a good mental model of me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It becomes very hard to impersonate me even though, technologically, I made it very easy to impersonate me. I think that’s where we’re at. It’s understanding people as people and not understanding people as just a few provocative sentences." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re only known as famous quotes, [laughs] a few sentences, then, of course, it’s very easy to fake your utterances. If you’re well known in a way that is very high bandwidth and sustained over a period of years, it’s very difficult to impersonate you." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I want to ask something that comes to mind when we talk about open information and free sharing of information. Do you ever worry that any given person’s tolerance for information may only reach a certain level?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "If there’s a free market of information, then a given person only may have so much tolerance to digest?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. That’s why we need journalism." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "But certain messages will rise to the top and those messages are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Counterfactual." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, I think it’s not a either/or thing. The whole notion of visualization is you can see all the 2,000 sources in just a couple of seconds and see a general trend. That’s visualization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Something the g0v community is particularly good at is to invent new visualization forms for complicated information systems. These are all user-contributed, so maybe there is some misinformation there also, but through blockchain technology, people can first hold each other accountable and not modify mutated numbers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through applying machine learning in the government-sponsored Civil IoT system, we can get other environmental/meteorological data from all the different sectors into the same place and cross-correlate each other. Actually, there is a hackathon going on. The top prize is NT$3 million to just do sense-making of this enormous amount of environmental data. The one that does the sense-making the best gets a award." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it is exactly as you said. If these are individual information, then, of course, there is no way to correlate the truthness of the information. If it’s aggregated, visualized, check-pointed onto distributive ledgers, analyzed by a shared data center that everybody can upload new analysis code on, then it becomes a community project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The one with the most sense-making power will triumph, and people can then rely on it as a reliable source of information." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I think that there are ways to look at the current social media environment and the way that information, whether true or false, spreads with a very optimistic lens or a pessimistic lens. I’ve certainly done both myself. I wonder what your biggest concern is as you see the current dialogue, especially with so much being said about the role of potential Chinese content farms, which could go into hostile state actors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would only worry if people stopped talking to one another. That’s my real worry. Then freedom of speech is as good as done for. If people don’t trust the Internet, even over end-to-end encrypted channels, they’re afraid of saying something that will cause them to disappear, then we don’t have trust on the communication infrastructures." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they stop visiting, if nobody want to talk with the minister on my office hour, I would worry a lot. [laughs] Then that means the civil society is disintegrating and people only talk to like-minded people or people don’t talk to other people at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, that is the end game. If there is an organizational actor, as some have speculated, to sow social discord, of course, that is the endgame they want of their society, that the trust is so broken that nobody want to talk authentically about their experience or feelings anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my main worry. Not being very optimistic about this, I don’t see Taiwan going to that point any time soon. We’re still very cherishing each other’s various viewpoints, ideologies. We may fight a lot, but still, there is a sense of it’s OK to talk about things, even political things, publicly. The public discourse, I think, has not been dampened by whatever effort that is currently sowing discord. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that, as the digital minister, I built those social innovations with the people. It’s not me designing for the people. It’s people informing me what to design. I intend to continue this trajectory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is one of the really facilitative roles that the government can take on these issues without infringing, as you correctly pointed out, people’s mind space by having the government set all the agenda and people being subjects to the government. That would be back to fascism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is every potential for the technologies in the wrong hands to be done in a highly fascist surveillance or whatever way. It’s just we’re not doing that in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I think that that is a common concern of people. I guess there are parallel concerns. There are concerns of having something like we talked before, the Cabinet website. Should that be in the hands of a government that has designs for control or for suppression or manipulation of a message? I think that that’s something that people may worry about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There’s an alternate worry, and I’m curious if you’ve experienced this when people come talk to you. When some of the high-profile disinformation stories have come out, there’s been a lot of response of people questioning whether democracy can deal with this, saying like, \"Do we need a strong leader to deal with this?\"" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "The existence of this sentiment runs very counter to the democratic society that Taiwan has. Have you heard such a sentiment? When you hear that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, very much so. I think it’s reasonable for people to worry about prior censorship. I think that’s the technical word for the first worry that you mentioned." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "For the first one, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan had a lot of experience in prior censorship. We only gained democracy in, it’s not even 30 years. [laughs] The first presidential election was ’96, so it’s still pretty close. We’re a very young democracy. I’m 37 now. I still remember how is it like to be under martial law, how is it like to have prior censorship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s generations of people who know exactly what prior censorship feels like. Of course, they don’t want to go back to the bad old days. That’s something the people younger than me, like Zack and people younger than Zack [laughs] don’t have first-hand experience anymore. When they went to school, it’s already after the martial law’s lifted. They’re the first generation that can actually do democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people to remember the bad old days, of course, they will worry that the government regains the prior censorship control. Therefore, we’re committed to never go back to prior censorship. That is the one thing that we don’t do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we’re formulating the draft of my talk, the freedom of speech, freedom of news is the core value of Taiwan. It’s not the instrumental value. We had a visit from another civic media journalist, and she was so touched that she has to take a picture of this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our generation really sees this as core. Maybe five generations in the future, people will start to see it as instrumental, but now it is core. That’s the answer to your first worry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second worry of a strong leadership, I think we can distinguish between 威信, which is authoritative confidence, and 誠信, a authentic confidence. It’s both trust or confidence level, but one is asymmetrical. The ruler doesn’t actually trust its subject. It’s just the subjects trusting the ruler conditionlessly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second one is multi-directional. The government trust the citizens first, and some citizens feeling the trust, decide to trust back. It is far more reciprocal and far more equal. Of course, all the governance system that I’m designing is of the second kind, the collaborative, horizontal, new power that grows when there is more people joining." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first one, based on asymmetry, is conditioned on the fact there can only be selected members in the communication channels before it’s broadcasted to the public. I wouldn’t say that in Taiwan, we’re completely horizontal power now. I think nowhere in earth [laughs] has people already finished the digital transformation to the new power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, people think, sometimes wistfully, about the old power because at least there was something that they can rely on, without going through the fact-checking themselves. There is a kind of comfort in having one person that you can unconditionally trust. If that person gets things wrong, everybody is doomed, [laughs] but still, there is a certain comfort in that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think people growing up with a cacophony of ideas eventually learn to navigate it. That’s what we see from digital natives. People who grow up in a relatively more quiet, dictatorial, authoritarian society, sometime they view the Internet, see there is just too much stuff on it and think back to the old days where they don’t have to make so much decisions and critical thinking on their own." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s an understandable sentiment, but we’re not going back." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That’s an interesting point. I know you’ve talked before about the Internet being a place of horizontal sovereignty, where the trust is mutual and all parties can come to the table..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Can see where people are." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...and be seated at the same level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It’s not a hierarchical society. You raise a very interesting point because I think that it can be a bit of an abstract concept if people come to this proverbial table of horizontal, equally..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Suddenly everybody is a news outline now. What to do next?" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There’s the matter of who to trust and there’s a matter of how to engage too. What is my role? Society has..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Who should I follow on Twitter?\"" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That, too." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Society has always been structured into some sort of hierarchy. Would you mind elaborating a bit more on how your personal philosophy influences the way that you design platforms like this, where the government will play a role, the people will play a role? If it’s in a horizontal environment, then it’s not the top-down sort of strong power approach that we’re used to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here. [laughs] Sorry, but it really takes this to explain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the network is connected like this, we can fool everyone into thinking the majority of their friends are binge drinkers, even though binge drinkers are outnumbered two to one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not that hard." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we have to let them know each other, but then that doesn’t work. They have too much friends here. We have to take a few out. Here we go." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Congrats, you manipulate a group of students into believing the prevalence of incredibly unhealthy social norms. Good going.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thanks, Nicky." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As system designers, what we are building, of course, is not this kind of network. What we are building is what we call small world networks. Basically, it is friends and groups with similarities in between, but also sufficient amount of bridges between those groups." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are mediators who can speak toward everybody else’s concerns and serve as mediators or translators that are reliable across these things, which by the way is the Occupy network. Each Occupy sends two people to liaise with all the other Occupies so that when one goes out, someone else can be reconnected." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The small world network is what we are consciously designing, to make sure that there is people who speak the language of both sides, but also people have sufficient confidence in their smaller groups to innovate without being drowned out by the \"follow everybody else’s thinking\" kind of way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they really catch something, then they have the mediators who spread those innovations to people and check the understanding with the people who understand both the cultures. We’re building a small world network is the short answer." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The participation officers or the vTaiwan mediators, the facilitators, that’s all our work revolving around these notions." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I just want to ask, going back to how to quite define disinformation from China, because it has been bandied about. There have been different terms used to describe what it is to the point where someone in the general public may just see it as this large force. Of course, you look across the strait, and it’s 1.3 billion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure not all of them are working on disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Absolutely not." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "The point being that it can be very easy for something from China to...if it successfully enters Taiwanese society and maybe gets people scared or gets people talking, and they find out that it comes from China, whether or not...As you’ve said, IP addresses can be manipulated." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "The whole population is not working on disinformation, but it presents itself as a looming threat. Some of the conversations I’ve had have said it’s not this big scary thing on the level that it’s been made out be in some circles." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "As a member of the media, I also want to describe this in the correct way. I think that it can be easy to visualize what...I mean it’s very vague. It’s an abstraction. It’s not something that we completely know what it is. How do you see it if you’re looking at Chinese content forums specifically? How do you think of what they are? How do you visualize them in your mind?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just like any content forums. They make clickbait platforms and thrive when there is some formula of getting a message viral so they can either earn revenues through targeted advertising in the future or even spear phishing -- why not? -- which is a form of targeted advertisement. [laughs] It’s just illegal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think of Chinese content forums as any different than any other content forums. People can easily use content forums in any jurisdiction to promulgate messages written in Chinese, or traditional Chinese for that matter, and getting them to spread. We see people using all sort of tools in all sort of jurisdictions. Trying to trace the origin of the content forums itself may not be the most protective thing is what I was saying." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Users of that content forums, the users who make coordinated attempts to spread messages on those content forums, they usually, from my experience, want to recruit people into amplifying their message. They’re, in a way, encouraging creativity by who can spread those methods or messages of discord in the most creative way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is also some sort of vandalizing credit [laughs] on this. People really are attracted to the dark side. Maybe they have cookies. That’s, again, a very normal part of online behavior. There just are some trolls that are attracted to memetic competitions. That is a normal part of online life." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the only thing that’s not normal, in Taiwan especially, is what people currently feel about the PRC government’s own deployment of technology on their own citizens, the deep fear of someday the PRC takes over Taiwan’s media landscape or technological landscape, and starting to apply the same surveillance system, social credit system, or whatever other system they are innovating, to the Taiwanese population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There really is a deep fear about that. It’s kind of what the White Terror is in Taiwan. That is the backdrop of the sentiment because no other jurisdiction or power has applied quite this amount of surveillance and other dark technologies to this scale." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The closest reminiscence of people’s experience of that is during the Chiang Kai-shek era, which is also coming from China. [laughs] It is, I think, a kind of return of the repressed. That is one factor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other factor I would say is also that people are worried that their current social media scene is not as transparent as people would like. Unless you install Feedless or Feed Eradicator, there really is close to zero transparency of why Facebook decided to show this advertisement over another advertisement, which is distinct from China." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also reminds people of a black-box, arbitrary decision-making process, which then hearkens back to the military law era, like random control and whatever. Of course, a distinction being you don’t have to use Facebook, or you can install Feed Eradicator, but there is a arrow effect. People still find themselves addicted somewhat to social media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these two are very different things, but they share something in common, which is people don’t have agency in their life and in the way their data is being treated as an asset instead of a relationship. It goes back to what I talk about trolls, which is people worry, rightly, that their long-term relationships are under threat of being a set of transactions. They’ll lose the humanity of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whether it’s PRC and its apparatus, or whether it’s social media with its not very transparent algorithms, both leave people feeling a little bit helpless. I think it’s this helplessness that brings out the projection that you witnessed when you interview two people because it’s easy to add to that image if you already have the source of the insecurity about helplessness." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "With Chinese content forums specifically, you mentioned the PRC’s surveillance efforts of its own citizens. For Taiwanese people seeing that content farms are receiving some form of state support most likely, and then they’re penetrating..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They think back of what the Chinese Communist Party, the CCP, is doing in Weibo. Some Taiwanese people also have a Weibo account. They know what the party is doing in Weibo. Of course, they would make the mental connection, and then start to think, \"Oh, is CCP doing its own thing on Weibo, but the other media and forums were doing?\"" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It can create fear or chip away at people’s hope if a content farm makes a significant impact on the Taiwanese news cycle, as we’ve seen, where false stories, disinformation stories have..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have been amplified by traditional media." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right, even when they’re disproven very quickly. I think we kind of look back, and I imagine that just everything is eroding." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I think it’s true. As you mentioned, the occasion where we lost a diplomat is where people collectively look back and start to think, \"Oh, maybe we rushed to conclusions. Maybe we should have stopped and said, ’Is it true or not?’ Maybe we should rework our news cycles a little bit,\" which is great." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "We’re the first generation that can do democracy. Of course, we get something wrong. It’s good to stop and think once in a while, but preferably without losing diplomats. [laughs] It is a silver lining that people are slowing down and looking at the media landscape." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "When that happened, it galvanized a lot of fears of there is this undemocratic threat, this blunt-shaped large object that can..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What really galvanized people was people realized this part of themself as one. There’s part of people who really are bloodthirsty and are after sensationalist stories and click-share before reading the article. It’s part of us." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Absolutely. In this reflective moment, I think there was also the fair bit of finger-pointing at China too. When that happened, it came out on PTT in a few hours that there was a Chinese IP address, but once that happened, fingers started pointing across the strait." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There was some reflection, but just through that reaction, because there was the fair bit of blame, thinking, \"Look what China did,\" whether or not that’s appropriate, that was a thought process of quite a few people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I took it constructively. I interpret it as, \"Let’s not go where China is at the moment.\"" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There is also a sense, \"China is doing this. We need to defend ourselves.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Then, of course, there’s defense, but there is also proactive action. I know I talk about transparency and trust-building already. But even on this very specific issue, it is possible to proactively take action. Feed Eradicator or Feedless may sound drastic, but they’re really effective. Similarly, is any of those browser plug-ins that reminds you that there are alternate news sources." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s even local media that you can just walk to their office, knock those doors, and have a talk about your local co-ops or whatever. There are a lot of proactive actions that people can do to increase social solidarity. That, I think, is not a reactive reflection or reactive reaction to look at what actor X did." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is something that we need to do as part of our curriculum, as part of our university social responsibility. We are doing that to prepare the next generation so that, when something like that happens, they will be less susceptible to those external or internal influences." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I wonder, though, when people engage on social media and start to do their own analysis of pieces of information that they come across and as you encourage and you provide outlets with the government for them to do that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the tools." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...do you think that there’s a risk of the classic herd mentality building where, especially with something like the current government has an open society, allows people to interact in a very directly democratic way in many cases, which is very novel." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "There are vague threats outside of that or vague opposition forces, both within and outside of Taiwan, whether political or otherwise. As we’ve seen with disinformation and social media in general, it has the tendency to polarize." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Like something with the cabinet’s clarification website, any sort of public presence of the government, we see this in the most free societies, where the robustness of debate can lead to increased polarization." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I wonder what you think about that because this is a really new conversation we’re all having." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, I would say it’s international. As you correctly pointed out, even on the greenest part of the world..." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "In the greenest countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...there are, exactly as you said, polarizations and people de-friending or losing solidarity because of the encouragement of public debate. It is something that we’re all getting used to, which is why it’s so important for those like-minded societies to partner. That’s part of my talk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Partnership, globally, is really the only way around. For this new kind of virus of the mind, grown out of the new environment, of course, Taiwan can say we have some vaccines. We have universal access. We have media literacy program, which is like universal health coverage, but at the end, we need to work together, just like working during epidemic outbreaks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That the virus of the mind, they know no borders. Unless the medical community work together, [laughs] there is no way to come up with effective vaccines, which is why any small innovations, it could be Cofacts, it could our curriculums, it could be those interactive games that I translated..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We talk with our international counterparts in not just GCTF, but all the venues that we can get our hands on to brainstorm, spread the news, and make our open innovations usable to other countries and other communication channels as well, in the hope that they can also improve on it so that we can also benefit from the co-creation process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a coalition effort. People who are still treasuring freedom of speech, we’re now very closely tied together to pool our resources, to share our training curriculums, to train the trainers, and to facilitate a thriving journalism scene to let people regain trust on proper journalism." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I also want to ask about at the TFD conference there were representatives from the US who spoke about how the two could collaborate in combating disinformation. I know that you visited the US quite a few times the last few months and gone and spoken at workshops." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They hold workshops." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "What could those collaborations consist of, potentially?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Shared curriculums and shared tools are the two that are obvious. We already publish everything we do online, anyway. We do have a curriculum that we’re sharing. After NYC, next month we’re sharing with Toronto. There’s g0v Toronto now. [laughs] They’re also learning the vTaiwan and Join facilitative methods, as well as any associated civic technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In a few weeks, there will be g0v Italy as well. G0v is one of those non-trademarked monikers. Anyone who want to work in civic tech can register a domain, g0v.it, or whatever, and have a run at it. [laughs] It’s not like Taiwan colonizes [laughs] other places in the world by insisting on a pattern or a trademark royalty scheme. It is entirely open innovation. It’s really just a meme." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can take it and run with it It builds solidarity. It makes people know that it is not just government state power talking to state power. It is civil society talking to civil society. It is social entrepreneurs talking with social entrepreneurs. It is people who manufacture AirBox talking with other vendors of overseas who manufacture AirBox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All these is communication and solidarity on this citizens’ level. It could be entrepreneurs. It could be social sector or charities. The state level is just sharing our awareness of the existing civil society end of this, and empowering each other’s civil society by giving them sufficient support, tools, and legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What civil society needs the most is being respected and being treated as a equal in a government’s agenda-setting process. There is a mechanism of doing that. It’s called the Open Government Partnership. The OGP is also one of the venues that we’re sharing all those innovations." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Is there anything else that you would want to add, especially on transparency in general and promoting dialogue in general? You’ve called it a vaccination for disinformation several times. On how that can be expanded and continued? For example, your own transparency policy, do you think that’s something that the rest of the government could continue, becoming more transparent, as they have?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re already doing that. Controversial consultations is now the norm." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read the news yesterday that city councils are now required to live stream its debates in a draft proposal sent by the Minister of Interior. That’s really good. Previously only some municipalities, and not completely, and the legislation, the Parliament, did that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I say spreading, I refer not only internationally, but also domestically into lower, self-ruled jurisdictions. The city council is a perfect place because it is the site of a lot of vertical power, of the old power. If even they can see that transparency compliments, although it doesn’t reinforce, the old powers, then they are much more willing to engage in a proper rule of law and democracy process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All of this is Target 16 in Sustainable Development Goals. This is literally what every country in the UN have agreed to reach by 2030. [laughs] It’s not like we invented the goal. We just discovered a way to work toward the goal in full speed without sacrificing or leaving anyone behind, without sacrificing freedom of speech, and in a way that the old powers are comfortable with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The last point is perhaps the most important one. We are working with countries who are like-minded, but we’re also working with countries that are questioning whether they want to be more authoritarian or whether it’s OK to be more democratic. We’re here to show that it’s OK to be more democratic." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Potentially, if you were asked for a response to the messaging that the PRC sends to this government, to this country, would you say that it’s a response to continue being open, continue being transparent?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Even the PRC committed to the sustainable goals Supposedly, [laughs] they are going to be, by rule of law and constitutionally, effective and accountable by 2030. Taiwan can help also, I guess." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Is there anything else that you’d like to add? I was wondering if I have any more questions from what I jotted down. One other thing that came up, as far as things to do as responses, as prescriptions for the public for disinformation, aside from asking social media companies through a forum to take social responsibility..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To become social enterprises. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’ve heard a lot of that. I’ll start there. Once again I was at TFC yesterday, and they talked a bit about that. How do we engage? I believe they’ve tried to before and have not...At least it’s still in a very preliminary stage if anything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, Facebook, in particular, is funding the Media Watch organization to do a independent review of the most trustworthy interactive traditional media Facebook pages, which is a start." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "This is here in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s here in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Taiwan Media Watch?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan Media Watch. It’s in the news already. Conceivably, of course, if there’s citizen confidence index in journalism and things like that, then people will maybe see the social media as more legitimate and not so full of rumors, which will actually be of advantage to Facebook as well. It’s quite conceivable why they want to fund that work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you can see, [laughs] the people who are high-ranked, they already reported them. People who are not ranked well did not report this. I wonder why." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At least that gets people talking. Of course, they can do more, and I think they are very much willing to do more because it’s to their advantage, as I said. If everybody sees Facebook as a place full of disinformation and nothing authentic at all, I wonder what that will do to their stock price. [laughs] I’m sure that it was to do it. As I said, it’s not because the Taiwanese Government asked them to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I always stress the fact that if sufficient number of people have frustrations of social media or Facebook, in particular, then we do co-creation. We do a participatory design, we surface the issues, and then we send that to Facebook saying, \"This is the will of the people, and we are just translating their message. But if you want to engage, you need to engage directly with the people.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re certainly not serving as a agenda server of what to ask Facebook. The civil society is doing that. As a facilitative minister, I’m mostly just making sure the words and sentiments they express can be translated faithfully into the language of algorithm, of code, of Internet technology. This applies equally to Microsoft, to Uber, to all the companies that I’m a semi-ambassador to." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Another thing that I wonder -- it’s more in the ballpark of the NCC probably than yours -- the importance of having a public broadcaster is something that I’ve also heard mentioned as a way to combat disinformation, having a trustworthy well-funded public broadcaster." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Here in Taiwan, I believe PTS gets something...For example, NHK in Japan is funded 20 times more than PTS, something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even with the very small funding, they still manage to do very good efforts. Actually, I attended to who comes to dinner with the PTS. I’m amazed that they can so much with a little budget, like the Taiwan health care system." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Funding PTS, for instance, is that its own potential way of having a more trustworthy or a more stable media environment?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just a NCC thing, though. It would be a Ministry of Culture thing. The Minister of Culture already publicly said -- even when she was MP, but certainly, now that she’s minister -- that she really believes the kind of picture you just painted about the strong public media that is not a mouthpiece of the state." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can save that for other diplomatic missions, maybe MOFA, but not the Ministry of Culture. [laughs] The Ministry of Culture I think is on the right track. They have good credibility now to be seen as not a mouthpiece of the state, certainly. Even the Social Innovation Lab that my office is in is actually within the Ministry of Culture, Contemporary Culture Lab, the C-Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is at heart of Taipei, but we dedicate it for participatory design and co-creation of culture rather than for finance or trading of stuff. This, by itself, shows that have a public space that belongs to people and people can trust is important, and in a physical way, as a physical manifestation of the Minister of Culture’s belief in that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think they’re working on a few laws at the moment that’s waiting to be second and third read that will give the Ministry of Culture the sufficient legal structures to set up such arms-length organizations and funding programs. I wish them luck." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not [laughs] supervising them, but I generally empathize and do agree with this idea of a public, not state, cultural co-creation process. That would be well-funded if those legislations pass." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It does seem like having a public broadcast or public media outlet with, of course, full editorial independence and a strong, robust system of doing very quality project work..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And an open license to empower the civil society to reuse the materials in even better ways." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Of course. How does that currently work? I’m not quite sure how that works with PTS." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, we have the Forward-Looking Infrastructure budget. We partner with PTS to do a few large, like 4K films." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m trying to find the word in English, which is not that easy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the super-high quality and...It’s something about a flower." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here we go. These are the two initial efforts that the Minister of Culture is partnering with PTS to make a culturally and historically important...It’s not quite a documentary. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a history film, and in a way that is using the cutting-edge technologies pipeline, with a lot of budget, and gets the standard operation procedure of getting these assets and these processes in the open, so that everybody can know how to make things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As part of this work, they scanned a lot of historical buildings in high-quality point clouds, so that people can put on virtual reality glasses. If you want to film something, you can very easily walk around these virtualized buildings. If anything like fire [laughs] happen to any of these..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...at least we can restore it using the high-quality scans. That enables me, for example, to be telepresent in other countries, such as the Germany Virtual Reality Fair or whatever, and speak in front of a temple cluster, and have people immerse themself into Taiwanese culture while having a conversation with me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s of multi-use. It’s not like those one-shot props in making a movie. This is mostly about getting a generation of filmmakers the language, the tools, the assets, to do public co-creation, and with the artifacts of their work, including the scans, the SOPs, and the code and everything in the public, openly licensed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then it also enables a accretive ecosystem not just for that one report or that one film. That’s the basic idea. They’re already getting some funding, but mostly just to get the technical know-how to a cutting-edge, competitive layer. We already talk about it. If truth is boring and disinformation is lots of fun, of course, that would never work." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That brings me back to what you had said before about how you had a conversation with Ko Wen-je about how he said clickbait can be characterized as fake news. At the same time, and you mentioned this too, a lot of media organizations try and use those very attractive, clickbait-y headlines." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I’m an editor, as well as a writer. When you’re writing a headline, you want eyeballs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s poetic work, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s some poetic creativity in doing this." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right, and you want to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You want to do the reporter poetic justice, but you also want clicks. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "You’re right. There’s always a balance. You want eyeballs while you’re also..." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "The cabinet’s website, for example, I’m not sure, and I don’t read Chinese well enough to know how those headlines..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Are click-worthy? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...or how the text in the articles avoids being too technical." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a constant problem. We are improving on that by having visual assets next to each major policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Social Innovation Plan, when we roll it out, we actually engaged designers who work with people with Down syndrome [laughs] to explain the idea of social enterprise, of sustainable development goals, in a way that seems fun and makes it easier for people who are not that textually inclined to still have a impression of what Social Innovation Plan is really about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Ministry of Health and Welfare, the Council of Agriculture, they all have engaged dedicated visual communication teams to do that. Their Facebook pages or their films tend to be the best among various ministries. Of course, we can improve other ministries’ know-how as well. This is a ongoing process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I totally agree. The poetic and also visual capability of engaging people using few words and a few iconic pictures is very important. We must not let content form dominate that art." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "When people instantly say, \"This is from the government, so it needs to be taken with a grain of salt,\"..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That’s great?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Healthy skepticism, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The government need to trust the people. The people trust back however they want." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "When you see that, is that a target for someone you’d want to engage, you’d want to start a conversation with?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s a invitation." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "How do I want to put this? I know that a lot of mis- and disinformation originates domestically. When we talk about China, there’s no way to really know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly, it’s not a territorial description. It’s more like a ideological description. People who identify with the authoritarian regimes, sometimes they truly identify with the PRC’s way of treating people domestically. There are people who believe in that in Taiwan as well." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, they organically spread messages. It’s not necessarily about reunification. It’s mostly about thinking back to the authoritarian martial law days and how glorious those days are." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I know that you’ve mentioned when there are messages from content farms, you’ll generally ignore them because there’s not really a way for you to engage. As we know, a lot of the content army, like the 50 Cent Party as they’ve been called in the PRC, a lot of that is becoming automated now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all being automated." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "As you are generally looking to engage..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...people, do you ever engage people in the PRC?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Do you ever really do?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. Right after I become digital minister, I taught classes in Hangzhou about how to deliberate in a virtual reality. I send my virtual avatars there. [laughs] I’m physically in Taipei, but I’m lecturing with people in Hangzhou and in Kaohsiung. I think it’s the Hangzhou Academy of Art and Kaohsiung Academy of Art as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They 3D-scanned their classes, upload it together, and we kind of merged the two classrooms together. All the models are placed in the Google data center in Changhua, which is not great firewalled. They just directly connect it to the open-source, virtual reality space called High Fidelity. I put on my goggles, and I can see students from both sites. It’s a pretty good experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I had just became digital minister at the time. I’m sure they checked with their political parties as well. They’re like, \"It’s not really visiting. We’re just watching a movie.\" They’re OK with that. I talk about how to form discussion groups, to set agenda, to do ideation and so on, in virtual reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my first holographic visit since I become the digital minister. Of course, I did many other things in Geneva and in other places as well, but Hangzhou was one of the first visits. I talk about that experience in the Open Government Partnership in Paris as well and shared that conversation." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Through that experience, when you were engaging with Chinese..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The students in Hangzhou." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "...students, could you describe how productive they were, like the attitudes of the students towards wanting to learn..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, we won’t use the word \"civic hacking\" then because it tend to get them arrested." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the thing I do, like social innovation, social enterprise, impact-oriented thinking, these are OK thoughts there as well. I mostly just talk about the tools and how to apply those tools to facilitate group consensus if you are working on a social innovation project together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is completely neutral. This doesn’t talk about centralized democracy [laughs] versus representative democracy. This is just about people listening to each other with the help of tools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The hope, of course, is that if they want to extend that to responsive decision-making, to fundamental freedoms, to transparent institutions, they now know how is it like to have the feeling in a smaller scale, and that there are sufficient technological tools should they wish to fight for freedom on a larger scale." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It gives them a framework to do what they may want to do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Do you ever worry that these engagements could be limited as the climate, at least between governments here and in China, is changing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t affect me, personally." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "I wonder what you would think, though, when there starts to be accusations. This is personal, but also it goes into a bit of how I think you do your job when you prioritize engaging with everyone, including people in China. When accusations are being made, like, \"Are Chinese students being sent here to spy?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. All the interactions are in the open. If you go to YouTube, it’s the entire curriculum and even the recording of our interactions. I talked about it in Paris. Everything is radically open and transparent. If they are spies, they certainly don’t look like it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the extent of our interaction because it’s entirely intermediated. There’s no backroom dealings because it’s literally just calls via High Fidelity and over Zoom. Everything is recorded, so everybody can see and make their own conclusions. Certainly, it doesn’t look like a clandestine operation to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is my methodology because I’m working with people. I’m not working for a state. Any innovation that I do, I just post it online. As I said, the domain that I set up in the Google data center, anybody can connect to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people connect to Hangzhou and Kaohsiung -- I think there’s some people connecting from Europe as well -- I don’t really ask them to declare their passport or something before connecting to my classroom. All I did was, \"In this hour, I’m going to appear here and talk about collective decision-making,\" and that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a seminar, a webinar, and I don’t think people generally find it’s a problem of people dialing in anywhere in the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After the climate change, as you mentioned, I’m going to speak on something like this in the Sustainable Development courses. I think it’s Columbia. It will also circulate to over 50 different universities in the world. I’m going to speak to them at once, and they can ask me questions directly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there’s one in Shanghai, as well, but I don’t really care where. [laughs] The point is that people think about these things collectively, and post their questions and go further than I am on thinking about these issues." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It’s interesting. Just from my personal observations, seeing the dynamics of fear play out in different ways has been something to observe with a level of healthy skepticism, at least for me, how you will see, as tensions rise between the world powers, and not just Taiwan and China, but as Taiwan becomes a part of a big narrative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The plate tectonics. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right, like the plates of power moving around, whoever they may be, how that goes down to a people-to-people level. My interest in what’s happening with mis- and disinformation here in Taiwan is that it goes to that individual level where it can impact someone, drag someone to a polar end or into a herd." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Summarizing everything we’ve talked about, I think that my first takeaway is using engagement and transparency as more preventative methods rather than just reacting to what happens. Could you speak a bit to the importance of what an individual person can do, both by themselves and as a member of a larger online community?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The very first thing somebody can do is to engage with social media on larger screens. A larger screen gives more ideas in one glance. It makes it less likely for people to jump to conclusions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you read the same piece of social media on a tablet or desktop, it’s far more likely that you will actually get to the point where you can have critical thinking rather than if you are walking and scrolling on your phone, which is very small and it only gives you 50 words or less." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It just ignites some outrage, and you’re compelled to share it, only to find out that it’s perhaps not what it seems like later. It’s more viral if it’s mobile and you’re in a distracted psychological state to engage with it. The part of the emotional brain is more likely to just log in and being provoked into adding fire to the fuel." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s a larger screen or you’re more a meditating poster, [laughs] or at least a more calm poster, then it’s far less likely that these things will affect you in a gut-feeling kind of way. My first suggestion would be engage social media as you would any other media, to engage it with full engagement, not in a distracted state. Preferably, use a larger screen. That’s my first suggestion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second one is if you find the urge to like something or to [laughs] spread something, at least one can be opinionated about how and when to engage in this way. What we found when I work in Socialtext before joining the cabinet is that if you have more than three instant message systems installed on the same phone, then people get into the state of attention deficiency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to constantly context-switch without fully contemplating any messages. It’s like a cocktail of attention deficiency. Pick a trustworthy, end-to-end encrypted instant messaging system and stick with it, [laughs] no matter what your other friends are doing. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I choose email as my instant message system. Any email, I can just respond within minutes. I do have a instant message account on other instant message systems, but I only check them once in the morning and once in the night. I use them like other people use email and I use email like other people use instant message. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I feel more psychologically healthy [laughs] because email is self-contained. It contains more contemplated messages. It has a set of tools, the PGP and every other tool, designed to enhance its reliability. It’s been around for much longer. We solved junk mail, [laughs] so basically, it’s less susceptible to all the psychological attacks. It’s a more reliable, older form of communication." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My third suggestion would be use email as instant message and use instant message sparingly, as other people use email." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Do you ever have any sort of public service campaigns? Do you ever publicly encourage people to do this, for example, to do things like these healthy habits, engaging on larger screens or using email?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s part of the media literacy curriculum. I think it’s going to run next September. I don’t have the final details yet because I’m no longer part of the K to 12 Committee. I did put a lot of those thoughts in when I still work on the K to 12 Committee." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "It may be in there?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That’s a very important thing for everyone to learn to do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basic hygiene, [laughs] mental hygiene." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Right, absolutely, and certainly helps us with being able to engage with something that may be false. That’s really interesting. I think when I absentmindedly use my phone is something that I haven’t quite thought about the impact of, being on my laptop versus that. That’s very interesting." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Is there anything else that you would want to add? I definitely don’t want to keep you for too long. I’m really grateful that you’ve spent so much time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The final suggestion is don’t drunk email. It’s not as dangerous as drunk driving, but it really amplifies things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you really want to consume substance, allocate a time and place for it and don’t mix that with electronic communication. That’s your public service announcement. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "That’s always a good bit of advice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "Thanks a lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I’ll send you the transcript." }, { "speaker": "Nick Aspinwall", "speech": "OK. Thanks so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "敬峰副召集人、各位青諮會的委員、各位機關代表大家好，時間過得很快，我們是從2016年11月開始第一次會議，所以很快就見了兩年，大家都提了非常多很寶貴的政策建言，我們也在FB看到新的網站，已經有人貼出來自己全部的工作，大家都覺得是滿不錯的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我回去看track的網站，大概有三十六個提案，目前為止完全參採十四案，部分參採六案，進行中的是十六案，今天的成果交流會大概分成兩個部分，主要大家比較關心的是，那十六案怎麼樣接下去，我們不會因為青諮會換屆就解除列管，所有的列管狀態還是本來的列管狀態，我們也是有一點類似像今天透過逐字稿的方式，請幕僚單位作成果的回顧，讓各個委員初步瞭解各部會更新之後的辦理情況跟未來的處理方向，新一屆的青諮可以是讀了這一份逐字稿之後再上班，等於中間的交接比較有依據。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然各位委員可能要諒解有一些提案，目前講的是研議中，因為時間的關係，所以來不及有什麼明確的執行成果，但沒有關係，我們有一個公開的網站，所以未來的執行成果，都會由幕僚單位青發署即時更新到青諮會的網站，它的網址不會改變，之後也都非常歡迎大家繼續向青發署，如果覺得更新的速度或更新的品質或更新的方式都隨時繼續提出建議，這是第一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個部分，4點10分以後的議程，阿峰會幫大家主持，主要是分享參與青諮會的心得與感想，以及對於下一屆青諮會運作的建議，如果機關代表在第一個部分還沒有進來或忙別的話，希望事後看到這一份逐字稿時，一定要把後面大家的建議、建言及感想看完，因為這才是很重要的部分，也會連結到下一屆的青諮會、運作調整、節奏調整，都希望在阿峰的主持底下跟我們分享，如果大家對這個議程還ok的話，請阿峰致詞。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "感謝大家，兩年前跟兩年後，看我的身材就知道，變胖，一個團隊有很多成果的展現，今天最主要的是成果回顧，我覺得每一個團隊都很棒，我覺得很重要的是永續發展，就是如何把我們的成果往下一屆傳遞，事實上我們也有跟青發署討論，像我們之前也有聚餐，就是我們跟上一屆的青顧團聚餐。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "希望4點10分好好讓我們的各個部會長官可以先離開，我們就可以好好內部討論更多有關於傳承要如何做的東西，所以等一下一個小時的時間，不要太著墨每一個到底要做到什麼樣的程度，我覺得今天一個題目不要一個小時以上，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果大家覺得ok的話，我們就請幕僚機關幫忙帶這個成果回顧跟部會交流的部分。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "接下來就由幕僚單位報告青諮會第一屆的成果回顧，第1屆青諮會共開了六次正式會議、兩次會前會，委員也另外參加十七個部會召開一百四十二場會議與活動，接下來簡報把各位委員的倩影都留在上面。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "剛剛敬峰委員有提到這兩年來有一些成長，這些照片可以讓委員們看到自己過往參與青諮會的樣子。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "而會前會的機制是經過過去四次大會磨合，在第五次青諮會議前所推出的，希望透過委員與相關部會於會前充分討論，使各提案能更為聚焦。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "另外會前會是有提供視訊參與的服務，讓有些委員雖然沒有辦法親自出席，但還是可以透過視訊方式參與。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "在青諮會總共列管三十六個提案，今天除了十六個進行中的提案更新辦理情形讓委員掌握外，也把所有提案的成果整理出來，讓委員清楚知道過去提了哪些提案、部會執行的狀況怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "1-1是政哲委員提案，完全參採。青年署已將相關說明資料提供委員參考；1-2是廷卉提案，完全參採。現行的運作方式其實就由一名委員提案或由兩名委員共同提案，合計人數達三人(含連署)就可以正式提案，再由各部會研擬相關回復的情形。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "1-3是泰翔委員提案，完全參採。幕僚單位盤點委員關心議題，讓部會參考，並請各部會依需要，邀請青年委員參加。委員共參與一百四十二場次會議或活動，總出席兩百二十三人次。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-1是偉翔委員提案，完全參採。勞動部已不定時邀集相關專家學者針對技術士證內涵及職能的標準，進行滾動式修正。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-2是泰翔委員跟宗震委員提案，完全參採。GRB系統已在107年第一季完成系統建置與改善。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-3是筱玫委員提案。內政部108年將更新全國119的派遣系統及相關的硬體設備，另擬具相關各類場所消防安全設備設置標準的修正草案，並持續辦理中。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-4是健智委員提案，部分參採。UBI所需要的預算規模相當龐大，目前對於推動方式尚有不同的看法，必須通盤審慎研議後才有後續討論。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-5是彥孝委員提案，部分參採。在106年底已研擬「推動提升勞動觀念」方案，另經統計至107年6月份，共6萬餘人參與。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-6是彥孝委員提案，完全參採。後續的統計具有專業性及高度風險職類，有回訓制度是達到70％。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-7是政哲委員提案。有關青年發展議題盤點，已開四場會議，這是委員與部會代表共同協作的成果，在簡報附件中有呈現，後續的處理方向會經利弊分析評估，循行政程序處理，而委員就機制面的建議，青年署會依權責辦理。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-8是唐政委提案，完全參採。青發署已將青諮會網站上線，呈現青諮會委員參與政策協作成果，當然也包含各次會議，委員參與情形。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "2-9是彥孝委員、宗保委員及裕翔委員提案，完全參採。勞動基準法於107年3月份提出修正案，後續勞動部仍會針對實際執行狀況持續滾動修正。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-1是宗震委員提案，完全參採。徐前發言人在重大會議已廣為宣傳，希望未來重大新聞時可有相對應政策連結，讓大家可以直接連接到網站並瞭解裡面的內容。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-2是政哲委員提案，完全參採。總統青年政見國發會已作列管，於大會中將部會辦理情形供委員討論，辦理情形已放在青諮會及國發會網站上，委員可以參見青諮會網站了解。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-3是宗保委員提案，部分參採。現行已完成軍公教退休制度修正，有關公保、勞保修正案等立法院審議。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-4是薇齊委員提案，部分參採。這案子除了與青諮委員討論外，也提請並經教育部特殊諮詢委員會會議決定，已於107年8月以行政協助方式委請交大辦理大專校院無障礙環境資訊公開的平臺計畫。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-5是薇齊委員提案。內政部及各縣市政府提供無旅宿旅館之資料，已建置於臺灣旅宿網中，這部分系統107年12月改版上線後即作線上公告。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-6是偉翔委員提案，完全參採。目前勞動部已依照程序加入國際技能組織亞洲分會的籌備會員國之一，將積極推動、參與亞洲區活動賽事。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-7是廷卉委員提案。永續會已做初步規劃，將提第44次永續會工作會議討論。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-8是敬峰委員提案，完全參採。這部分已請各部會協助安排，有合適會議、活動，請委員出席提供相關意見。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "3-9是哲豪委員提案，完全參採。教育部已做學校設置性別友善廁所之盤點，後續為了持續推動，在機制上面，納入績效型補助指標、國立技專校院108年概算績效型補助款衡量指標、108年獎勵補助私立技專校院整體發展經費核配及申請要點，希望大家可以積極推動。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "4-1是馨如委員提案。教育部針對「公私立大專院校校園學生權利調查報告」已於網站上公告，並發文請各大專校院協助轉知學生會相關網址，讓大家參考使用。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "4-2是馨如委員提案，有兩個主辦單位，分別是勞動部跟國教署。勞動部在國中小、高中職部分有做入校巡迴，大專校院部分有在學校內勞權座談；國教署已逐步深化在國中小課程教學當中，並請相關地方政府共同配合。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "4-3是由偉翔委員提案，勞動部，針對參與計畫青年協助就業媒合，八百一十一個有意願參與者，媒合七百九十一個。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "在教育部青儲專辦，另將持續鼓勵企業，提供在地的職缺，另依學生需求開發相關職缺，並強化就業媒合的機制。後續教育部、勞動部也會共組青年的輔導團，提供即時的輔導與協助。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "4-4是郁珮委員提案，部分參採。相關法令部分，教育部已經設有「學校型態實驗教育實施條例」，如果學校有意願，可依照相關程序辦理；客委會另外有去瞭解花蓮縣鳳林鎮北林國小。目前已透過客委會客語生活學校計畫推廣客語文化傳承。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "4-5是裕翔委員提案，農委會完全參採、勞動部部分參採。農委會奉行政院核定於107年11月1日試辦農民職災保險相關法規；勞動部則將持續輔導並暢通加保管道。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-1是宗震委員提案，完全參採。人事行政總處107年已辦理相關薦任以上人員實體課程，接下來還是會視公務人員數位培訓需求，適時把這樣的理念放到課程中規劃。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-2是瑞福委員提案，教育部提出，107年度玉山(青年)學者計畫通過四十六件申請計畫，並由十四校聘任。科技部海外人才歸國橋接方案，至107年9月25日已錄取六十八位學人，其中四十七人返國交流，持續推動中，另外持續補助延攬客座科技人才參與科研計畫，還有研究學者在國內執行相關中長期的科研計畫，科技部也會持續推動。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-3是馨如委員提案，勞動基準法實施已經三十餘年，針對不同型態之工時或是生產方式之變化，勞動部將著手盤點勞基法函釋，並瞭解各界的意見進一步檢視，審慎研議。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-4是馨如委員提案，教育部人事處已著手從校長遴選制度進行通盤、整體性檢討，後續將據以審視「國立大學校長遴選委員會組織及運作辦法」修正草案的合宜性。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-5是政哲委員提案，國教署107年8月7日發文辦理國教署補助高中學生工讀獎助金實施計畫，並函請各級高中學校，包含台中跟桃園市教育局依規定辦理，並提報107年經費。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-6是政哲委員提案，國教署將持續督導學校落實相關申訴機制，及透過學校學生事務案件諮詢輔導評會議，作為獨立在學校之外的審查機制，當然將依相關計畫或研究案，在未來納入高中教育法及申訴評議委員會組織辦法中。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "5-7政哲委員提案，經青年署調查，已經有十二個地方政府設立十三個青年組織，三個地方政府有相關青年事務的專責單位，中央與地方青諮委員交流會議，107年是訂在12月1日與2月2日舉辦。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "6-1是廷卉委員提案，永續發展目標之主責機關，將提第31次委員會討論，並請院長裁示。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "6-2是偉翔委員提案，國教署部分除持續推動外，將提供主管國立學校三名專業及技術教師之外加員額，鼓勵國立學校試辦遴選事宜，並依照後續辦理情形再來研議擴大推廣之可能性。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "勞動部勞動力發展署所遭遇一些困難跟建議事項，將洽請人事行政總處會協助提高聘用訓練師員額的比例。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "6-3是政哲委員提案，中選會表示，今年地方公職人員選舉後，將規劃進行分層年齡層選舉人抽樣分析，另會視經費額度評估將公投的投票情形也納入。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "有關選舉權跟被選舉權的部分，內政部會配合立法院修憲程序作後續處理。法務部回應部分於簡報沒有特別指出來，但在書面資料另外補充，回復有關於民法成年年齡的是否調降，因投票權與民法成人年齡應該是區分開來，法務部會依據就民法部分蒐集意見，必要時調整。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "這兩年來，青諮委員持續秉持前瞻、創新態度，參與政策推動、法案研擬，成為政府與人民之間的有效溝通平台，並挹注許多年輕活力與創意。這兩年感謝有你們，謝謝委員。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝，是不是可以先幫忙鼓掌。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家看這六次大會提案，這樣認真地處理，就像我昨天被記者問政務官應該對青年是怎麼樣的態度，我就說「應該是把青年看作是嚮導」，帶領我們往比較前瞻、有未來性的發展，看這一些提案，很清楚就是這樣的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家發言詢問或者是補充之前，經濟、勞動及教育部的三位朋友有沒有要分享或者是補充最新進度？比如十八歲想參加公投的朋友，現在能不能放假？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有想要詢問或者是分享或者是提出的？特別對於這個報告當中，有想要留言給下一屆青諮會的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後半段的討論是青諮會的討論，部會的朋友現在都在，如果有想要詢問的話，顯然比較好。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "大家好，我是吳政哲，我想要詢問兩個部分：" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "第一，公投的部分大家可以去投票，雇主不能不讓他投票，教育部是不是可以請各大專院校及高級中等學校不應該在投票的那一天去排一些集會活動或是課程安排，避免阻礙學生選舉投票？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "第二，想要請問中選會，簡廷芮是這一次公投的代言人，在9月多有看到行政院跟中選會的新聞稿，但是截至目前簡廷芮的粉絲專頁跟相關的訊息上，其實是沒有提及公投的部分，不知道代言人是什麼時候活動才開始，因為他們有看到非常多其他的老人福利聯盟不是兒福的相關活動，但沒有公投的部分，所以想要詢問中選會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個公投是「應放假日」嗎？這個在勞動部應該沒有太大的……好，說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "我們今天早上的公文公告會出去，不過按照我們的法規程序，我們要預告，預告完有意見之後，我們會再經過勞動部的法規會才正式做函釋，不過應該不會有特例的狀況發生，這個方向的確立及目的都會達到，但是法制的程序正在做。" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "至於提到學校的部分……" }, { "speaker": "曾新元", "speech": "有關投票那一天是假日，所以學校基本上也不會有課程，這一個案子公投跟選舉的部分，我們會配合中選會將一些需要宣傳的事情轉給大專校院，以上。" }, { "speaker": "陳宗蔚", "speech": "中選會報告，代言人簡庭芮拍攝30秒宣導短片及20秒插播卡，內容除宣導18歲有公民投票權外，同時也宣導本次投票流程及投票時應注意事項，除於電視及網路播出外，並函請地方政府及所屬選委會加強宣導。另外，也邀請網紅「各種同學」拍攝「18歲的各種同學」影片，擴大網路宣導效益。同時本會也函請教育部轉知各大專院校，在學校網站及系所網站、校內公開場合或活動，適時運用上開影片加強宣導。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那就麻煩問一下，因為逐字稿也會大家編修個十個工作天之後才對外，所以十個工作天之後有任何額外的訊息，包含網址什麼的都可以直接提供給我們的幕僚單位，我們會跟逐字稿一起發布。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣聽起來還不錯。只要沒有人在法規上……" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "不好意思，還有高級中等學校，剛剛教育部只回答了大專院校，但是可能要發文，因為大專院校其實有很多六、日其實是有上課的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等一下，這個我沒有聽懂。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "大專院校跟高級中等學校是教育部應該要……透過一個什麼方式，讓學生或者是讓學校知道不應該在那一天有刻意……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "老師都去協助投開票，但是把學生叫來學校？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "因為在有些學校有發生……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。李委員有沒有要補充？" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "因為我現在是大學生，所以其實真的有很多大專院校是週六早上跟下午是有課，目前跟一些教授討論或詢問，他們說那一天並沒有要停課，也許教育部這邊可能有一些通知，或是有一個法規去遵循的話，相對來說，大專院校會比較有標準。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，高教司會需要中選會先發個函嗎？" }, { "speaker": "曾新元", "speech": "在部內我們有討論過，原則上跟中選會也有討論，中選會需要一些教育部宣傳的事項，我們都會配合中選會，比如希望學校儘量不要在禮拜六排課，或者是要做宣傳海報的發送，原則上我們都會配合中選會處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們那一場國教署有來嗎？或者只是高教為主？" }, { "speaker": "陳錫鴻", "speech": "主席、各位委員，高中以下學校，除了正式課程以外，其他非上課期間的課程活動，都不得強迫學生參加，所以既然選舉為正式公告的活動，我們都以尊重鼓勵學生行使投票權為優先。" }, { "speaker": "陳錫鴻", "speech": "既已鼓勵具投票權公民參與投票，事實上投票當天各級學校老師也會踴躍投票，所以學校也不會另外安排活動，讓具投票權之高中學生也能去行使公民投票權，國教署也會配合中選會規定加強各校宣導尊重鼓勵學生行使投票權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是可以請中選會的朋友一併把這個帶回去討論？除了代言人的部分之外，也包含我們對於各級學校儘量不要在那一天排任何回去投票，因為每個人的戶籍地不一樣，每個人需要花的時間也不一樣，盡可能是全天不要有好像他可以參加課的這一件事，有可能嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳宗蔚", "speech": "宣導這一塊，詳細的業務是綜規處，我想我回去跟綜規處的處長再報告這一件事，稍微再瞭解一下目前的狀況怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就把實際的狀況請綜規那邊，反正有十個工作天，盡可能詳實更新到逐字稿上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為其實所有的委員也都是自媒體，所以你給他們越多材料，他們越能夠幫忙宣傳，這樣好不好？謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有其他的？" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "我是青諮馨如，我想要就大學校長遴選的部分，因為我印象中當時在提這個案子的時候，雖然沒有白紙黑字寫在那個提案，但是我自己有去過高教司、教育部人事處，希望得到歷年來校長遴選的這個制度，從開始開放成遴選制度之後，各校歷年的校長遴選委員會名單，其實牽涉的背景跟權力網絡基本上是很多大學生在關心的，可是很顯然、也很可惜的是，到現在沒有看到這樣的資料，所以我不曉得是哪一個環節有出現bug。" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "第二，謝謝勞動部在這幾年來就勞動教育的努力，今天下午本來在台南也有一場劇團的演出，在這裡如果有所謂「人之將至，其言也善」的部分，請勞動部繼續加油。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想繼續加油的部分，比較沒有實質回應。但5-4的部分是看教育部哪一位回應？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我在這邊簡單回應說明，有關於委員跟我們聯繫，我們也有嘗試做一些資料的整理，但因為國立大學校長遴選制度，歷經幾次大學法的修正，所以其實委員名單的參考性並沒有那麼高。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我們也有跟委員提到，我們現在正在進行大學法及國立大學校長遴選辦法制度性的改變、修正及檢討，是不是等到真的在做比較實質上研議時，我們到時會把委員的意見一起納入來作整體性的討論，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來是你們有一個整體檢討的期間嗎？現在有說什麼時候要做完？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "部長裁示三個月內要完成，我們在部裡面會同高教司、技職司及一些相關的法制單位來作整體制度性的研議，所以我們基本上會在年底之前完成。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。年底之前完成，因為這一案還在辦理中，所以年底前辦理完的時候，就回來更新5-4，這是來者可追的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本來的部分是剛剛講名單的部分，因為每一次遴選辦法不一樣，所以每一個階段名單不一定能夠有可比性，我聽起來是這個意思？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使沒有可比性，如果公布或者是提供的話，擔心會被斷章取義嗎？可以直接講嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "一方面當然如同政委所講的，因為每一個階段，其實大學校長遴選、委員組成規範其實有一點不太一樣，如果就名單直接公布的話，的確可能在歷史背景不一樣的情況之下去比較這一個名單，可能會失去一些公正性情況出現，因此我們才沒有直接把這一份名單提供給委員參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過這個名單，你們用不到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "這個我們需要時間整理，因為各大學自行辦理校長遴選，各校才有完整的委員名單，所以有需要的話，我們需要滿長的一段時間去蒐集與整理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。聽起來你們手上有的部分是比較片面、片斷的；第二，如果要全面的話，當然會變成是在你們接下來三個月的整理裡面題目，但是即使這個題目納入的話，最後要不要公開，也是要開最後重新整理過的這一群人覺得我們現在制度改成完全不一樣了，過去的就不公開了，是不是？也有這個可能性？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不知道像這樣的說法，有沒有什麼補充？" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "（搖頭）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就這樣子。我們檢討出來這一些資料是有意義，而且沒有斷章取義風險的話，這樣子還是適度公開，我覺得是會有幫助；但是我理解部長自己在帶通盤檢討，這個是意見，也請部長參考，最後請部長確認結果，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為大家委員在線上有一個聊天室，顯然有人要舉手，是泰翔嗎？" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "大家好，我是泰翔，有關於這一次選舉期間，本來的活動像自願性參加的這一件事，假如學生的話，不知道是自願性參加或者是強迫性參加，因此是不是有一個機會，也提供資訊給高教司或部會，發文讓他們知道在選舉六日原則上是要放假的，如果有活動的話，同學們必須要瞭解到是自願性的參加，也就是用比較明確的方式，讓大家知道自己的權利，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是不要有被自願的情況發生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我真的覺得中選會可以考慮一下，勞動部等於是有預告的文字，我想應該不會有人反對，誰敢反對這個（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "其實中選會還沒有發公告，但是行政院在前一陣子已經有一個函，如果依公投法辦理的公投要放假，我想這一個部分可能教育部、中選會會參考，因為函釋是最近就會出來，應該就可以解決兩位的問題。" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "陳宗 蔚：" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "就我們瞭解，中選會在選前跟發布的時候都會發文，跟所謂選舉區內的學校、機關團體說那一天必須要放假一天，我想這個文，如果公投公報發布之後應該也會有一些作業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以你發時的文字，因為剛剛委員留言是說會有逐字稿，因此文字我想就適度參考一下委員的措詞。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們對學校也理解到是建議性質，但是對大部分的學生來講有建議性質是有幫助的，學生也排了一些是自願，只是我沒有講清楚，學生比較不會誤會好像不參加會怎麼樣，所以至少對學校也是一個保護，所以如果你們本來就會通知各級學校的話，看是不是可以適度參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果ok的話，看其他人有沒有想要討論或者是詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "不好意思，我想要提另外一個部分，我們要感謝國教署在過去辦理「與署長有約」的活動，也有部分青諮委員有參與，其實那時的署長也說「與署長有約」的高級中等學校的代表會法制化，但是在那時的討論當中，基本上有處理到很多跨國教署以外的其他學生所遇到的狀況，在那個會議當中是沒有辦法處理的，甚至跨到教育部外。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "行政院青年諮詢委員會在蔡總統的政見（http://iing.tw/posts/438）當中，也有提到高級中等學校的建議，我也想要建議在第二屆的青諮委員會當中，是不是一部分的成員是由高級中等學校的代表有一個機制等等，讓他們在這樣的會議上從他們的角度來發生與參與，好像應該是提案，但是到這個田地，是不是對下一屆來作建議，請相關的部會來參考，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不確定下一屆有沒有高中生的委員，可能要幕僚機關才比較知道。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我們的辦法是寫十八歲以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我讀到國中，而且隨時可以去讀高中。不過比例可能比較小一點（笑）；現在聽起來，是想要有另外一個機制，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "也許學生代表一起來參與或者是列席，又或者是什麼樣的機制，我們這一次的討論，其實也有一些是高中生的相關議題，他們也只能透過少數的幾位委員，像國教署有這樣的機制，也解決他們那邊所遇到跨署之後沒有辦法解決的議題，也回應到政見的初衷，應該是包含高中生，不只是年滿十八歲以上，這是委員初步的想法，可以後續討論、研議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣我比較瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過這樣的話，因為這跟課審會一樣，馬上國中生就會問「為什麼我們不在裡面」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這可能要在下一屆的青諮組成上，要另外抓一章出來討論，不太可能在我們這一個部分就做成決定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主要還是本來青諮會有一個組成辦法，這個辦法並不是不能改，而是要改的讓來的人心服口服，並不只是列席，還是有一定程度的參與，並不是找一些十五、十六歲，但是也只能列席，而不能提案，這樣到底算什麼呢？這種情況馬上會有一種被摸頭的感覺，這在高中生是最不能被忍受的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我覺得要參與就要實質參與。這並不是我們一時三刻可以討論出來的，這是幕僚機關進一步跟青發署現有的機制銜接，不一定是人過來、也許是事情過來，討論完之後再回到那邊去，這一些都有可能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很感謝這樣的建議，我們會繼續往這個方向討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看其他委員有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我根據我的提案，自己往下提一下我最近的看法，我當時在青諮會提到提升公務員資料素養的這一件事，我提完之後親自把人事行政總處、國發會及幾個地方政府教育單位上課，上了二十堂課，也有幾百個公務員，主要的內容是幫助我們公務員強化資料素養的這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我裡面有幾個重要的心得跟委員分享，我看到最大的痛點是大家要提升資料素養或者是提升某一個新時代的關鍵字素養，最大的問題是主責的人是誰，有人來提案，誰回來說我們來決定、我們來做，人是誰？另外一個是關鍵字產生的時候，大家想要應用的時候，導入的流程到底是什麼樣的流程？" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "這個是我在上完那麼多課的過程中跟眾多的公務員們，從中央到地方都有共同的問題，我希望今天有機會是開始之後，往下可以思考，以後因應到不同的時代，我相信資料素養在幾年之後會換不同的詞，當新的概念進來時，我們的政府單位要如何因應？" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我剛剛提到兩個點：第一，新概念進來的導入流程，另外一個是主責者。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「政府數位服務準則（GDSP）」也才剛頒布，也試行一年，最重要的是要找到主責的人，確保是跨領域的團隊，大家也覺得採購法好像真的修完了，統計法也修了，那個是法律工具，公務員要敢用，也要有跨領域的團隊的組織者來做事，這個是有必要的，這個是為什麼我自己對GDSP是非常期望的，不過這個才剛頒布，所以大家如果有碰到相關公務人員正在要開新的資訊服務、數位服務，或者跟數位服務不一定有關係，像有數位成分，比如要做互動式服務、網站等等，都可以參考GDSP的精神。GDSP試行一年也可以修改，所以請大家一起努力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看其他委員有沒有想要詢問或回應？" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "大家好，我是青諮委員許瑞福，我是5-2的提案，我分享一下我的想法與心得。其實我提了這個案子，從政府的立場可能有滿多的層次，像延攬人才、友善人才、培育人才，其實現有的措施比較偏向延攬人才、留才。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "這個提案我比較關心的是培育人才，可能培育人才措施有很多方面，比如要提升國際化的環境、基本待遇，像最近一次是全國科學的策略會議，部長跟中研院長也有注意到這個問題，像基本薪資的可能性，還有科研、教育經費是不是要提到更高層次之類的問題。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "其實當時提這個案子時，其實我覺得有一點不夠成熟，但是跟我其他業務有一些落差，但是也滿感謝教育部、科技部的一些同仁願意花額外的時間來討論。我接觸了滿多的同仁，其實也算是滿有理想，也願意花更多的時間來討論，現在也慢慢開始有越來越多的部長跟高層的人來重視與討論，我們之後也會持續努力，以上是小小分享，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們說這個算是「完全參採」，可以接受嗎？" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "嗯……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果不太接受也可以講。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "還可以努力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大方向是一致的，以短期的部分是稍微有一些落差，完全瞭解。再看其他的委員有沒有要提出或者是討論的？" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我提案是3-8，我當時提案是希望各部會跟委員可以比較熟識，但是中間的歷程比較久，所以這一批委員只有去一次，後面卡了比較死，一、兩個月就要去三、四個部會，所以很多部會就pass掉，而沒有辦法參與。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我們其實到經濟部、文化部及其他的部會，就是去了之後，經濟部做了什麼事、文化部做了什麼事就可以討論，因為下一屆是11月左右就會進來，我覺得應該變成有一點像讓他們還沒有參與到這樣的會議之前，他們就可以到各部會知道每一個部會在處理，有一些議題可能是不會在行政院大會時就提出來，可能是在裡面就已經萌芽、紮根。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我這邊的建議是，我認為3-8完全參採，我覺得當然是ok，是這一次完就沒有了，我覺得是可惜當初的目的，因此希望定期讓我們的委員，特別是非部長以外的長官，比較不會 換，這個大家比較清楚，合作起來是比較有效益在。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "如果看逐字稿，我當時有提到這一件事，我覺得這個是比較重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想資深的事務官是最重要的，青年委員如果一開始來……我們最最一開始的第一場會議其實也有討論過類似的事情，但是後來一個考量是，在實際去各部會開會、聽簡報之前，或許再往前開是有一個公共行政通說101的基本概念，不然就會變成其實到那邊，也就是到底什麼是幕僚機關、業務機關，主秘在忙什麼、次長在忙什麼都不一定有非常清楚瞭解的話，各部會大家也是看彼此間能不能對焦，所以如果能去，然後第一次問的問題對焦，事務官會覺得很不錯，是來協作的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果第一次去的時候，完全只是聽報告，這樣子第一印象，我還想說把第一印象弄好一點，原則上很同意阿峰的看法，是不是在第一次大會之前就分下去，也許是第一次大會前後先讓各位跟下一屆有一個非正式交流，我們再某些比較像青年圖像盤點以大家比較切身的議題來介紹公共行政到底是怎麼回事的說明，這樣也許是比較循序漸進的做法，但這都不是算裁示，讓幕僚機關列入考量，再看幕僚機關最後怎麼規劃，好不好？謝謝阿峰的建議。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "我想跟大家分享的是，青諮可以為各部會未來解決什麼問題、提供什麼幫助，我相信各部會最怕的是變成盧主，就是每一天在新聞上或者是在網路議題上被人家找到把柄或者是議題攻擊。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "其實我們都有聯絡立院那邊有什麼議題，但是是否每一個部會都有新聞輿情或是網路小組來瞭解目前在網路上或者是相關議題上有哪一些跟自己部會相關，哪一些不一定有，這一些或許在未來政策制定或是溝通的過程中，青諮或許都可以協助一起來參與，不論是政策的發布或者是討論，又或者是未來如何行銷跟鋪陳，我相信這些對於在各個部會上、網路族群溝通或是青年溝通是有一些幫助的。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "因此也希望未來各個部會可以把這一個委員會當作各位的幫手，讓大家看看網路或者是青年有什麼不一樣的聲音，在政策的制定上、溝通上對大家都會有所幫助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實滿難得有諮詢委員會並不是提出問題，事實上也包含解釋問題及解決問題的能力，我們之前有很多非常大型的輿情，所有人都知道，我看到很多提案是還沒有變成大型的輿情之前，大家像嚮導一樣，如果好好解決這個，兩個月之後不會爆炸，這個其實是滿重要的功能，因此感謝委員的提醒，我們也會在新一屆的青諮裡面更強調部會協作的精神。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "再看委員有沒有要分享的？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "有幾件事，想要分享在青年政策盤點的會議，其實有非常多部會的承辦人或者是科長以上有來參與，那一次大部分的人都非常期待可以聽到青年的聲音與想法，但其實在那一次會議中青年參與非常少，我想要回饋給青年委員，很多人希望可以聽到青年的聲音，並不是很害怕等等，所以回應剛剛委員所提到的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "很多時候在不同會議上面對到的事情可能是不一樣的，因此那時在會議時，有很多公部門的人提到希望可以跟委員有更多次的接觸，又或是直接的聯絡方式，因為我們的訊息好像就不知道在哪一個部分有平行時空的交錯，因此我們覺得非常可惜，那一次各部會都帶了很多有點失望離開，因此我們希望跟各部會溝通的機會，這個是第一件事。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "第二，我想要回應的是，有關教育部全國放假日的部分，今年6月22日其實教育部人事處有針對研商全國性公投放假規定的意見表，其實針對全國在蒐集意見，對中選會來講其實是可以提出參考，就是請大家參考，對教育部而言，應該是有指導責任的，因此我覺得不應該只是參考，其實應該有一個正式的公文。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "【會後補充】研擬全國性公民投票日放假規定意見表 （https://ws.moe.edu.tw/001/Upload/12/relfile/7848/59996/1b3ff811-44fb-4eaa-b195-be31486b04e2.pdf）" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "最後，其中一個提案是關於高級中等學校的工讀生，我希望把這一段話的記錄，所以特別在這個時候提。那個政策實際能夠翻轉，如果可以來參與會議的人，可以感覺到從上次的會議要做服務學習，但是後來怎麼好像又過了，最關鍵的人物是國教署的署長，尤其是邱乾國署長有講了一段話，想要跟大家分享，他有一次在會議上提到跟國教署裡面的人說：「不能教小孩違法，當然不能做違法的示範，該保的就應該要保，學校負擔的費用我們來想辦法，幫助到的學生雖然少了一點，但是我們至少良心過得去，三十年前的勞動觀念跟現在不同，要重新考量，因為當時有其他的同仁提到這個政策三十年前是他規劃的，就是補助獎助，又不想要他不勞而獲，並不是工讀、賺薪水的。」目前國教署仍未新任署長的派令（由副署長代理），更期盼新任國教署署長可以讓高級中等學校越來越變成一個符合人權的校園，用這一段話來跟大家分享，也謝謝邱乾國署長持續的努力，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常謝謝，這一段值得留進紀錄當中。大概還有10分鐘，還有沒有分享或者是詢問的部分？" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "之前參加一些會議有遇到一些情況，後來發現有很多委員沒有準時到或是後來沒有出席，或許未來在下一屆應該要好好解決這一個問題，不然部會提供東西，我們沒有如期或者是如品質，這個對部會來說也是很抱歉的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為每一位委員自己的時間其實都是有限的，其實大家一開始都先知道彼此能夠commit多少時間，這個並不是事後覺得好像被欺騙感情的情況發生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這樣子運作到大概最近可能七個月左右，大概大家比較知道彼此花多少時間下去，也就是比較對焦，現在更多的討論是下一屆如何把時間縮短，不要磨合一年大家才比較知道彼此的節奏，至少三個月或者是六個月把節奏弄到上軌道，這個也是阿峰討論的主要目的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有什麼最後想要補充或者是說明的？" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "大家好，我就坐著，我是青諮偉翔。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我補充一下3-6案一些論述及延伸，很感謝勞動部的夥伴，尤其是勞發署，他們很多在國際競賽多年努力的基礎，我們才有機會參加國際技能競賽亞洲賽。這是技職跟技能的奧會組織，其實奧會的戰略版一直在變，對我們來說是很大重要技能跟技職的國際參與，後面還有挾帶產業策略，所以這一件事真的很感謝勞發署，我們也才有機會在今年底去參加亞洲盃技能的賽事，在阿布達比。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "第二，畢竟最後一次會議，我覺得再進一步分享技能族群的聲音。國慶的時候，我們有亞運的英雄列車封街，同樣奧會模式的技能奧運國際技能競賽，我覺得在整個技能群體，其實心理並不是很滋味，體育有國家很大力的支持或者是慶祝，但是同樣奧會的國際競賽就只能乾瞪眼而已，我不知道國慶活動規劃這是不是行政院層級可以討論的事，或者是建議的事，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有人要回應嗎？" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "剛剛委員提到這一屆屆期之後，如何能夠再跟部會互動，我想青諮會還沒有成立之前，偉翔就已經鑲嵌在勞動部裡面了，其實帶來了不是他個人，其實他代表自己的社會脈絡，我覺得這部分對公部門來說是非常好的事，不是委員一個代表性，也不是他個人對技職的研究，後面還有一批人、社群其實對這個東西一直在討論。站在勞動部的角度，其實這樣的年輕世代所能帶來的刺激，有機體在那邊，這個是青諮會的功能。" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "除了偉翔之外，還有很多朋友在兩個月前到勞動部訪視的時候，給部內同仁很多的刺激。我覺得關鍵是在部會當中找到一、兩個年輕人，或是願意花時間轉譯，大家互相轉譯到政府體系裡面，又或是從政府體系轉譯出去社會部門，這個工作會很辛苦，但其實施政來講會減少溝通成本，我們其實也趁機會要感謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "施克和", "speech": "勞動部這邊隨時也都歡迎各位，因為我們上次的訪視滿快樂的，其實認識久有些事短時間做不到，反而講得出來，我想大家心理都知道，我們非常珍惜這樣的互動，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "各位是從外掛變成鑲嵌的位置，這個是比讓人開心，因為這真的像雙向交流，並不是單向給壓力、給說明，而是雙軌、雙核心都在運算的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實青諮會的成立，之所以不是當成青年議會或是往立法那邊去的目的，就是希望大家在公共行政的脈絡當中，當然一方面指出問題，二方面也能夠結合到實際正在解決問題，因為法律、預算及資源等等，每一次解決掉一個部分，至少解決的部分是大家看到之後再來解決，並不是自己埋頭去解決，然後大家再說服接受，感覺上很不一樣，這是新的文化，這個文化就像老師說要轉譯的工作，我覺得這是最重要的部分之一。" }, { "speaker": "林慈玲", "speech": "不好意思，內政部想針對剛剛委員提議的選手是不是要放到國慶的活動當中，我在這邊跟大家報告，國慶的大會主席是立法院蘇院長，但是是由內政部跟相關部會，我們會組成一個國慶慶籌會安排相關的活動，有關委員的建議，我會帶回去交給大會處，因為安排活動的內容是大會處在處理，所以大會處安排明年活動時一起提出來討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "麻煩您了，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果大家都ok的話，第一個部分就到這邊，非常感謝各部會、幕僚，再次感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主持棒接給阿峰，阿峰說休息一下。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我也不想逼大家要講，如果大家特別有一些感觸想要分享，就以心情面先講一下，不管怎麼樣，我覺得大家可以分享；第二輪是讓大家分享一些比較具體的，像剛剛有委員政哲或者是泰翔有提到，如果委員都不來參加，怎麼辦？像我之前也有聊到，可能會公布出一些之類的，我們講一講不代表會成真，但是如果不講絕對不會成真，所以今天最主要的目的是把這一些想法講出來。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我鼓勵大家建設性比批評性更重要，以後大家聚在一起的機會不多，但是我覺得至少可以把一些東西留給下一屆的，不管是副召集人或者是政委去沿用，我覺得會更好。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "剛剛Peggy點頭如搗蒜，要不要先分享一下？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我覺得跟下一屆有一件事是我們這一屆沒有做的是提案的交流，還有跟各部會的認識，像青諮的組成滿好的，有一部分的人是政治素人，怎麼做事都不是很瞭解，我花很多時間，像看泰翔、偉翔提案，甚至我要提案也會私下問要如何做，但是最後的結論是跟我說這個是一件非常大的工程，我光要瞭解就要花很多時間。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "有一點我們今天來這裡的目的沒有發揮到，我覺得有一點可惜，我覺得新青諮可以更快速接軌，讓他發揮我們請他來的原因。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "要有新生訓練。我那時候提案，還請泰翔幫我改內容。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "原來有這個功能。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我知道了。真的要有新訓。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "我先講心情面，大家跟部會相處，很容易遇到一個問題是，我們有做什麼計畫，一貫回應的方式，這個東西的確是需要信任的程度，才不會把我們當外部的人，把我們當內部的人來討論，青諮這樣的組織內嵌到整個院的體系當中，我們是一部分，對外部的回應是已經做了什麼，這個原因是我們拉到這個大會的層級來報告，他們不能不回應，所以相對回過頭來說，過程中那一些跟部會間細部的交流就會變得更重要，我自己也沒有那麼多的時間把這個事情做得那麼好，我覺得應該還有再加強的地方。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "我覺得或許有一個方式，像剛剛委員有提到要瞭解一件事那麼困難，更何況要提出解決的方案，我們其實很需要的是部會窗口，那其實是可以回答我們問題，讓我們可以更瞭解議題的人，因為我們從外部蒐集的資訊，還是不及於內部去瞭解細節與脈絡，他們早在溝通的過程中有想這一件事，結論是走了另外一條路。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "回過頭來，我們內嵌在這個體系當中，所以我們沒有辦法做到很好的協作，我覺得這個是接下來必須要加強的地方。" }, { "speaker": "廖泰翔", "speech": "我之前參加文化部的會議，那個是跟劇場相關的事情，我訪了很多劇場的前輩，最後實質提出的一些意見，司長也有給我們正向的回饋，像這一種小型會議，就會不確定怎麼樣follow up，也就是未來提出的東西怎麼follow up，這個可以跟貢丸協作，也就是未來參加小型會議也有follow up的機制，不用拉到院的層級或者是大委員會來討論，這樣部會也會有意願讓我們做細部的小交流，這個也是一種方式，以上分享。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "我補充一下泰翔大哥講的，剛剛政哲有提到發展圖像的小組會議，我不太確定成效怎麼樣，我剛好有空，所以我就去了，我參加教育場，其實在那一場會議進行的方式比較活潑一些，所以有比較多對話。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "聽起來比較幼稚，那時候是在玩大風吹的遊戲，也就是在制定政策的時候，有找過青年來跟你一起共同制定，就移動之類的，大概就是一半、一半，所以滿有趣的，但是有跟沒有的理由都滿有道理，沒有的原因是真的不需要參與或者是有什麼困難，有的原因是原本的體系，像農委會或者是農會已經有這樣的東西去參與，其實在細部的交流活動時，我覺得不管是對於建立或者是跟部會間溝通，那一次結束之後，我找了科技部的人出來討論提案，像這樣的交流增進兩邊的理解，也真的比較有一些雙向的溝通，因此那一次我覺得算是有一些成效。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "大家要不要直接講？" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我大概有提幾點，剛剛會議有提到拜會部會我覺得是最重要的，應該要最一開始就拜會，不用先大合照，我覺得大合照一點意義都沒有。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "大合照還是有意義的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大合照你去部會的時候他才知道你是誰。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "瞭解，對不起，經過兩年我知道了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "第二，我發現有委員會提滿大量的案子，我覺得這樣子會浪費大家的時間，有一些委員是因為時間不夠，我也會提醒下一屆，我覺得提案委員如果沒有辦法出席那一些會議，我覺得你提的案子其實成效非常非常糟糕，尤其至少像我們這一屆有一個主提案，後面是連署。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "去參加一些會議，部會長官就會問這個提案人沒有來，連署人要不要提什麼建議，連署人通常都沒有什麼建議。因為主提案人沒有來的話，大家不知道要討論什麼東西，所以真的非常重要，提案人要參加那一些會議，我覺得重質並不重量，並不是提的數量多就是好的委員。因為我們跟前一屆交接的時候，他們有提醒我們政府都會需要動員非常多的資源，我的確也看到了，因此我不敢亂提，所以大家提就很不錯，覺得我好好參加就好了。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "第三，我發現提案的一些問題是封閉性又或者是需要整理資料，請他們提供一些資訊，我覺得我看到公務員都做得滿好的。但是開放性的問題，就不容易讓政府同仁回應，用青年圖像來做一個例子，因為政哲問了政府做哪一些事，這是封閉性的問題。若問題是：「政府可以幫創業家做什麼？」這個是開放性的問題，開放性問題我覺得委員答得會比較好，但是對於政府官員，我看到普遍是他們不太知道能夠做什麼事，所以靠大風吹來凝聚大家的共識，青年意象的主持人家華我非常推薦，我覺得可以請她來帶大家。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "第四，我覺得會前會比大會有效，大會是為了要照相，我知道；會前會的互動真的是雙向的。在大會時，當院長在上面的時候，我看不到什麼雙向的情況產生，全部都朗讀完之後，問委員有沒有問題，然後院長會開始交辦下去，承辦人員會有壓力，會變成委員跟承辦人員是對立的關係，但在會前會不會發生這樣的情況，因為可以直接對到窗口講到話。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "第五，用公務人員的語言，我們當然會希望各個年齡層可以瞭解我們這一個世代，但是我在開會時，我有發現我們的公文並不是很瞭解，我又用政哲做例子，真的很不好意思，剛剛他有說一句\"我會覺得突然進了平行時空。\"" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "「平行時空」是什麼意思……（笑）" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "太流行的用法。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "反而容易造成同溫層，我們可以用別的語言「這個公文怎麼追不知道追到哪裡去」，這個也是平行時空的意思，不用這麼困難；我在開會的時候，也是開青年圖像會議時說「中二」，旁邊經濟部的朋友問我什麼是「中二」，但是「中二」代表的意思更廣泛，不只是幼稚，但是為了讓他懂，所以我就用幼稚這個詞。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "另外，我希望有一個預估專案的時間，例如提案3-5是無障礙旅宿的現況研究，觀光局本來就有了，營建署也有，因為飯店一定要經過營建署登記，為什麼要預估專案執行時間，我自己是開公司的，我花的時間越久，我的成本一定越高，不知道有沒有可能讓政府的同仁講說專案預估要花費的時間，我是一個問句，這個是開放性問句。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "他們如果可以估計花費的時間，像大學校長遴選辦法，要是承辦人員開了五年的時間，我們就會知道大概做不出來，因為五年對我們來說是無限大的，因為我們才兩年的任期，他講出來，我們也可以有默契知道，總不能每一次提了很多案，你看我們兩年已經結束了，從第一次開到第六次，還是很多案子部分參採，對我而言就是無限期的一直延下去。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我可以分享嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "「內嵌」的，比較瞭解（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我稍微分享怎麼提案，我會怎麼想這個提案，然後接到剛剛所說的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "要快一點喔！" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "提案之前其實就會知道這個部會的業務是誰負責，像一般人去溝通就會說這個科長不要，可能是因為他有長官、下屬，還有很多的壓力來源，他的不要，倒不一定是自己的意願，所以在那個情況理解下之後，然後再去提案，或者是在提案之前有一些非正式的溝通，這個是重要的。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "也不只跟他溝通，像教育好了，民間是有老師、家長、相關團體，還有學者，這一些都能夠溝通到，搞不好還接觸議題計畫對應到計畫主持人，這個事前溝通是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "再來，因為議題的縱深就知道提的這一件事是要達到中程或者是遠程，像我剛剛有提到分享國際技能競賽的亞洲組織，只要這個時候推一下就可以了，我覺得可以去預估議題到達什麼時候，我覺得這個滿重要的，有時可能會因為立法院的關係，有時是行政院、部會間，像勞動教育經濟部的有固定三次長會議，他們也有很多小的工作圈，如果知道的時候就知道那個至少是一個月一次，理解越多具體資訊，提案的時候就會比較準確去推動，按照這一些周邊條件去做還滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我有錄一個新人影片之類的，你們公司的人這麼多，怎麼訓練新人？" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "都部門做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他也是交辦的。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "我們上次加入沒多久，盤點一次有沒有興趣的部分，我上次分享，忽然在幾個月前，忽然各部會瘋狂打電話來，我很為難，沒有辦法跟他們約到，尤其是影視廳的。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "我相信下一屆很快就上來了，那個是不是可以往前拉一些，我後來發覺，就像剛剛泰翔或者是政哲講的，他們很樂意要聽聽看外面的聲音，不一定我們每一個領域都懂，所以我覺得很可惜，我記得當時有看會議紀錄，其實年輕人在那些領域特別瞭解，後來是用email，跟科長說聽到的建議怎麼樣，我覺得看下一次的時候是不是可以往前做。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "會前會的時間卡住，因為要配合所有人的時間，我故意都不填，就是看大家都可以，我再看可不可以來，後來因為是青諮會的關係，所以各部會會收到推薦的名單，那個我們儘量參加，我覺得那也滿有用，因此我覺得當然是有其目的跟效果，就像剛剛所說的，如果下一屆的委員，是不是會收到很多各部會的邀集，我覺得可以多參與，因為更直接溝通，那跟青發署來做，我覺得那個會更直接。我覺得那一些也可以盤點回來，因為其實大家也花時間去做。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "另外，還有大家太不熟，很像見新朋友，因為之前就是在行政院那一次。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "還有一次吃飯你沒有來。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "希望大家可以更熟。等到我們真的卸任了，希望跟新的……" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "你要負責，在CIT。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "我現在有投資兩間Bar。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "不想，我想去CIT。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "好，聽副召的話（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "剛剛有提到，第一次看完還是可以去各部會，那一次可不可以讓我們這一些老屁股還是有機會參與，因為那一些參與的好處是，像游適任是GQ風格代言人，他可以去文化部，有幾個新的委員對文化部也有興趣，也許未來沒有辦法長長久久參與文化部的相關提案，但是游適任就可以把一些想法……" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "應該各部會都會問推薦名單，如果是當過委員，我其實覺得就足夠了，因為他們會自己看背景。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個就是剛剛講鑲嵌的意思。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "青顧團有邀請過嗎？我滿好奇這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實青顧團現在還有幾位，經常在會議上出現。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "我有遇過。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "在經濟部開會有遇到之前的，但是他們的角色通常太多，被邀請不一定是因為青顧團身分，可能是其他的原因，比如創業顧問之類的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "第一次去各部會的這一件事，老的青諮會不會邀請？如果本來就有鑲嵌在裡面就沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "就是名單開給他，他們就是會勾選。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們可以確認每一個部會在第一次邀委員的時候，我們是前後兩個一起寄給他，這是絕對不會有問題，但也要看新的委員感興趣跟你們感興趣實質重合到底到哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "游適任", "speech": "時空背景不知道到哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然有一些核心關懷是差不多一致的，也就是青年圖像盤點的那一些，那個是無論如何會重疊。我只是沒有辦法承諾說，你們關心的也會是他們關心的。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "因為我們是第一屆，雖然前面有青顧團，但是本質上我不知道這個是要幹麻，所以有很長的時間在熱身，我相信下一屆應該會跟我們後一年的差不多狀況，比較偏公共行政的建議或者是討論的方向，我相信到下一屆給他們回饋的話，是我們目前的做法或我們認同這一種方式的調性，可以提醒他們可以這樣做。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "還有一個是，可能需要提案one or one的事情，因為這一件事並不容易，我相信只有對小部分已經碰過的人才知道，因為裡面的問題太多，就是你到底要提什麼問題、利害關係人到底在哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "要有工作坊。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "由上到下這一件事是重要的，所以一打通就會很順暢，順暢後面就會不一樣，我覺得重點是在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "大家剛剛有提到，就是如何運作的這一件事可能還是得在一開始就要讓大家稍微有一點理解或認識，像那個政策的討論，記得政委以前曾經提過，把想要改變的政策區分成不同的層次，每個層次適合和什麼樣角色的人溝通。另外，我覺得很重要的是，會議前的討論等等會比會中來得重要，因為經歷了兩個院長時期，很明顯的是，一個院長保留或促進很多機會和時間，讓委員和部會長官們在討論，另一個院長則是很願意做裁示。 但是在院長主持的大會的時候，應該就要是先前已經盡一切可能彼此理解與溝通（就是全部搞不定的時候），再讓院長做政治責任的裁示，其他的討論應該在事前去進行。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我自己關心的議題，其實不只是在正式提案，或者後續追蹤中，才提。而是在各種會議或可能，或拆解或組合成不同的樣態，找各種縫差....也許就是這樣逐漸的，大家也就開始理解為什麼想要這麼做，其實「同理」真的需要一些過程。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "另外有一件事是我剛進來時很像要做，但後來也沒有做到的，也許可以有每個月定期的聚會或者是一、兩個月來聊聊關心什麼議題，但是會不會跟提案有沒有產生關聯是不太一定，但是藉由討論的過程中讓大家可能更瞭解政府的某個政策或產住共同提案的過程，像剛剛所說的整個提案的產出，也許有一些有經驗的人可能在那裡面就會發生。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "比如有人問過代理孕母或什麼的像法令或者是等等的事情，我在做政策參與，但是參與上還有一些困難的時候，有一些是你很少參與的，我其實很好奇，或者我覺得大家都需要知道困難跟障礙在哪裡，因為大家會談出席率不夠的事，但是我想要拿另外一個東西。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "接下來想要跟大家分享這個圖（會後補更清楚說明：https://hackmd.io/s/r1l00cX2m ）" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "空間：必須有機會表達觀點" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "發聲：環境必須有助、利於表達意見" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "觀眾：這些意見必須被聆聽" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "影響：不是完全聽他的，而是這些意見，必須在酌情後獲得落實，讓表意者知道，你的意見在我們那個階段被考慮，也影響了什麼？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "因此用這個圖告訴我說我們的參與跟發聲絕對不是發聲的內容好或不好而已，而是有很多的友善機制是什麼樣子，我自己覺得在這一個方面是沒有做足夠的，其實原本很期望我在這個角色上可以多花一些時間來做，即使是在焦頭爛額的情況之下。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我覺得更重要的是，關心哪一個議題現在是什麼樣，從青年的角度把這個現況說清楚，我們對這個議題的美好是什麼樣子談清楚，如何從這裡到那裡，如果有想法就提、沒有想法也沒有關係，政府部門如果可以讓我們可以從這裡到那裡，但是有另外的做法也沒有關係，因為很多時候是因為青年不太了解政府是如何運作，如果太快地去談做法，可能容易有所誤會，所以就把這兩個東西（現況--美好）談清楚，可能會是更重要的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "最後，從第一次的想法是，我們真的不是第一屆或很陌生，臺灣在2004就有行政院青年諮詢小組的參與，那一些青年如何累積與留下來對話，我覺得這是滿好的機會，也許接下來的共識營或者是工作坊可以邀請不同的參與者。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "這邊也可以推薦兒少去做政策參與或者是提案，我覺得那會給大家不錯的刺激，也就是如何從我們的角度去看我們跟公務員能看的事情，一個是年齡的部分，一個是角色跟位置上不一樣，就是因為不一樣，所以才需要我們這樣的存在，因此我們如何呈現我們的觀點與聲音，在這樣的機制上可以有一些媒合，或是大家在這樣的基礎上討論，我覺得可能是有趣的事情。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我想接著分享鑲嵌的這一件事，我自己是寫政策報導的記者，在這個會上，基本上我是跑政策參與，不要聽剛剛次長（剛剛所講的），我很常跟勞動部、教育部吵架、爭論一些報導上的點，但是我覺得從打哈哈到一個真實的關係過程很重要，鑲嵌，不是鼓勵大家要成為某一個部會聲音的延伸，我覺得不是這樣，而是跟他建立真實的關係，因為很多真實關係是在衝突之後才知道真實對彼此的價值是什麼，因此這個關係跟概念才是鑲嵌的意思，並不是部會的延伸。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "在提案的時候，不是要部會馬上要做到，然後不管部會死活，我覺得倒不是這樣，基於理解跟事實，我們把邊界多推一點，我覺得可以多一些互動上的態度跟心態，在大家基於一樣理解的情況下往前，我覺得這樣變成好的合作夥伴，就會知道並不是聽他的話，但是他知道如果大家都是關心這個議題，只是在不同的立場，我們做這一件事、他這個法令對這個議題或者是業務往前推進，大家就會合作，因此鑲嵌並不是部會的延伸，但是是有共同目標，我覺得是很重要的事。" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "我就自己的經驗跟侷限提供一些建議：" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "第一，順著偉翔剛剛提到的溝通、關係的部分，我必須很坦白來講，其實是共同共構的，行政院青諮在我們每一個人可以投入多少，其實那是一個成本，但成本取決於個人及每一次會議可以決定的效率到哪裡，最少的投入成本是今天提一個案子、詢問了各處室的需要資料是最低的成本，最高的成本像偉翔可以做到一個組織者，但是像我的專業領域會遇到教育部、勞動部，這兩個大部會是最常遇到的，不管是主觀或是業務承辦人員給的建議或回應，其實都會影響到委員跟他彼此不斷建構的關係。" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "就像今天提到委員的名單，你去拆解政治話術，你會發現沒有什麼，可能這樣比較尖銳，但是我講話就是這麼「靠北（台譯）」。" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "剛剛回應到成本的問題，來自南部的委員，像我跟彥孝要來參加一趟，我們每一次都要很認真，並不是像各位都是北方人，勞師動眾，下一次可以移到南部來試試看，一天，交通成本跟所花的心力之於我們每一個人在看待每一場議案或每個會議的重視程度，像剛剛Justin提到一通電話進來，委員兩天、三天或者是青年議題圖像，我並不是等你天天開會就可以了，南部的委員並不是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "我談到第二個層次，我談地緣政治去影響委員或影響在看待議題或提議題，又或者是跟公部門間的關係，因為牽涉到的是背後脈絡，但是在南方沒有這麼兇，你會活不下去。" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "第三，其實夥伴關係不是只有我們希望把他拉過來，不可能，如果手不給你，並不能會成為夥伴關係，這個是政府部門要有其他系統去做公務人員的培力，把開放性跟open的態度打開之後才有可能成為夥伴關係，不然我把教育部當夥伴，但是人家不屑我，誰要跟我當夥伴呢？" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "你們參與上的阻礙或者是困難有任何是可以協助的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "吳馨如", "speech": "可以解決，我的意思是除了空間上的東西，我們上來一趟，時間上……" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "已經花這麼多成本，而部會給的東西。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "政委應該有解決方案。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我提的案子是勞動教育促進法，委員有提出來，我不曉得下一個會期會不會有立法委員會重視這個議案，我也是想說我要寫，如果在最後這邊再提出我的論點或怎麼樣，我希望勞動教育促進法一定要立案，不立案不行，我跟馨如的想法就是這樣，這個不立案，未來我們南部的勞工絕對會跟政府再有更多的對立，一定的，保證。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我覺得是兩個層次。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "還有一個問題是，各部會在後面很緊湊地邀請我們這一些上來北部開會，這很好，但是我的期望是，就像剛剛吳委員講的，我們填有興趣的，我們也很開心，就是剛開始填的時候，各部會有開會或怎麼樣，大家就像次長，上次的開會就有解決掉我的問題，那個系統根本就是複雜到，公會根本不想去弄那一套系統，所以上次的指令下去之後，就在南部開一次會，我覺得這個很好，在南部召集各個公會討論這個系統哪時候要怎麼改善，有給一個答案，今年年底會改善這樣的系統，我覺得這樣的方式真的很好，但是因為要卸任了。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我希望下一屆的青諮委員把興趣填寫上去之後，其實我跟勞動部的長官也沒有很大的落差，其實勞動部的長官真的很好在一起，我覺得真的很好相處，只要把我的問題跟他講的話，他們真的問說：「委員，我們這麼做好不好？」（會問我）是不是有別的方法，我（回答說：）「給你一個意見，我們南部的工會都是這樣在做，你想想看這樣好不好？」" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我說那一套系統分兩套，一個是學校機關……" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得問題回到前面，新的青諮委員並不是在談運作的時候，怎麼樣的方式更好。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "後面會有幾場的拜會跟座談，並不是填了哪一些部會，而是敬峰有提案，是我們去拜會部會，蒐集大家的時間，然後再跟部會去談時間。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得最早有填過……那也不是最早，因為是1/2的時候，因為在運作……" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "就是在敬峰提案之後，我們填過有興趣的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "應該這樣講，即便下一屆很早就填了，怎麼樣運作會對於非北部這一些參與的朋友會比較方便。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "像最後一場是次長邀我們上來座談時，我提出我的問題，他馬上在北、中、南的三個場次，比如南部是勞發署，邀請我們去解決這個問題，我覺得這樣子是好的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "所以還是讓你跟南區的負責單位？" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "對，我覺得是這樣。會比動不動南部的委員很緊湊，我會覺得上來北部開會，我是沒有排斥，但是時間上……像我又要趕回去，回去又是8、9點了。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "遠距離視訊可以解決這個問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我覺得可以解決。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "來跟我們開會這一群人跟實際上做事情的人的實質感受，因為他們的想法跟我們是接近的，在那一次，所以他們也遇到這樣的情況。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "大家坐著這樣談，有問題就問你，沒有問題的話，就沒有問題你，不要好像我們在質詢你。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這個是政委推會前會的用意？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實本來除了會前會之外，也是想多一點這樣的格式。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "會前會會更好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過有一個我們下一屆馬上可以做的是，問一下所有的委員住哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這本來就可以，這一開始就會知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為像特別是這一種非常informal的，要約到CIT之類的地方，我覺得無論如何都是要在大家可以隨時去的地方。其實像我自己在社創中心，也就是空總旁邊，大家都知道禮拜三都可以來找我聊天、吃飯，但是確實來的人，大部份不是離高鐵很近就是住雙北，事實上就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是為什麼週二去巡迴，一開始先確定每一個人住哪裡，可能北、中、南或東的一些熱點，先在那邊聯絡感情，不會覺得每一次要聯絡感情的時候，南部都要付出額外成本，我們偶爾也可以去一下台中、高雄或台南，有這樣子平衡的感覺會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我還有一個感覺跟大家分享，我覺得我提的三個案子，其實我會覺得公務部門的長官在回應的時候，好像都比較官方回應，我會希望在下一屆的時候，各部會的長官跟我們講話時，好像不要有一個距離，我覺得很好溝通，大家坐下來談一談。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我不曉得我提這個案子，你們到底在執行方面有沒有什麼問題，如果有問題的話，沒有關係，是不是又轉變一下，看怎麼做會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "就是one on one的部分，提案相關的潛規則之類的。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我覺得有很多可以考慮，比如一開始第一次會的時候，就人提到要提案，我覺得第一次不需要提案，狀況根本都不知道，所以不用急，可能會前會先瞭解，會前會不是因為提案的會前會，先關注哪幾個議題，根據那一些議題之後再開始，先熟了再開始，現場先討論做什麼，或是回去再思考，因為這樣就知道窗口，後面的提案才會對到對的人。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我剛剛聽到會前會很重要，可是我們認為重要的時候，其實是青諮會一年以後，已經大概摸清楚狀況，所以才知道如何操作。我現在講的都是對下一屆，也就是一開始操作的時候，不會讓他們知道會前會很重要，他們根本沒有感覺，但是讓他們知道我們的機制是什麼，又或是這一個組織可以帶來的成果是什麼，我覺得反而是好的。" }, { "speaker": "林彥孝", "speech": "我先離開，歡迎你們來高雄玩，掰掰。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "現在提已經有一點晚了，但是我覺得有一個考量之後的行政交錯任期。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一半一半嗎？" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "對，不會兩年就空掉，一群很新的人，彼此不熟，也不知道如何操作，那都是一邊摸索的，比起你跟上一屆的，可能偶發性有一些交流，你就會實際看到那一些熟悉的人如何操作，因為現在提已經有一點尷尬了。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "可是我記得下一屆不是有一些人續任？" }, { "speaker": "李政哲", "speech": "我們相處兩年不熟，然後還要一半一半交錯？彼此間如何連結可能更重要。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "有人想當第三年嗎？" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "三、四年的話，其實大家付出的時間成本也滿高的，續任這一件事可能也許都有一些難度，可以實際看到怎麼操作，然後就可以聽到怎麼樣，你講了那一次，可能一個月、兩個月記得，你到三個月後要提案，這一件事就很遠了，自己也很難去摸索。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "另外，我覺得像剛剛提會前會的這一件事，還有很重要的一點是，可能單位或者是個人關心的議題，但是未必知道現在的進程怎麼樣，又或者是他的相關團體到底有誰，他們在這個政策上有什麼樣的想法，因此會很不敢貿然提案，是不是有一些正在進行中，又或者是哪一些利益團體，又或者是政府有什麼樣的規劃，可是這一些在不知道的狀況之下說你關心這個議題，然後有什麼可以改變或瞭解，也許是可以得知的訊息，正在政策部門未必召開跟青諮的會議，而是這個政策相關的關係人會議，可以知道哪一些團體在裡面。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "其實在你跟相關的公務人員談之前，你也會知道誰關心這個議題，然後把大家串聯起來。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "協作會議……" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "也許不是提案，可能各部會有重點計畫在做的時候，反過來問大家的想法。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "而是定期的，並不是現在關心這一個議題才……而是可以知道部會做什麼事、哪一些團體已經在裡面，你還可以做什麼，也就是除了這一些以外，還有什麼可以作連結。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我問一個技術性的問題，像公文會有一個資訊系統，我們可以用Google訂閱快訊或者是什麼事，發生就寄給我們，這個可以做得到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你說對外的公文嗎？像法規預告？" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "像被公開的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，「Join」有這個功能。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "像會議的蒐集，如果每一次發文，會問你三個月後的會議，但是這個發文是要兩個月，所以你每一次收到的時候要很久。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "之前有提到一個會議的系統，大家就登入，而這個會議是讓外界的人參與，有外界的，某個程度不會這麼隱密，我們有興趣就可以去參與，但是實際上有一些困難，大家還是透過紙本公文，各部會就會開始說原本怎麼樣都不會紀錄、為何要自己寫紀錄等等，那個實際上是很困難的，因為一樣的事情來問我們，我們就可以理解到那個困難，但是現在來問我三個月後要開什麼會，那也是不可能的，所以用這一種方式來調查會議，就是會卡住排除，另外一種就是要看政委的專業，該看政委的資訊專業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個是無論如何一定會定期發生，這個是很容易的，甚至一年前就可以開出來，但現在的問題是大家都有提到，這一種會議的拘束力太高，以至於你去的時候，部會都很嚇，像永續會最好的例子，不過當然還有很多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "都已經這麼高大尚了，大家不會有這一種很informal，如果很有機會討論的，不可能三個月就預知，這個事實是這樣子，並不只是對青諮這樣子，所有部會的承辦都碰到相同的狀況，你一定要定期開，一定是長官、政務官在主持，很難有協作式氣氛，通常要協作式氣氛是臨時來看一下。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "剛剛講到部會怎麼回應蒐集青年事情的實質內容？" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "像地方農會系統本來就有在做。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "他們不覺得需要找我們的其原因是青年來約的，或者是教育部等等來說去辦活動、透過問卷，大家就有辦法反映意見了，所以我們也不太需要，或者是我找老師就可以讓老師、學生，剛好是爸爸、媽媽，是有很多元的身分，他過去沒有想過，他覺得比較方便，又或是政策的一些青年來，他們覺得會也參與上的困境，可能有失業的青年、用藥的青年等等。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我覺得大家也許沒有想過這一些事，如何讓他理解透過問卷的蒐集，不一定會得到你要的東西，慢慢是會遇到一些東西，讓他們謾罵的……他們覺得有，所以他們很期望聽到青年的聲音，那個落差到底是什麼？像之前有提到也許有一些部會可以分享可以合作成功的，也就是大家不害怕，也就是如何有效蒐集意見的方式。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "實務上相關領域議題計畫主持人就有既定的人，所以政策提的政策背景就是那幾個教授、學者及關係人。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "就是想盡辦法再進去。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我的意思是政哲剛剛提的很重要，不然會讓事情的發展、單位的發展，其實就是那幾顆腦袋，這幾顆腦袋或許非常有用，但是就會只限在這幾顆腦袋，所以其實政哲提的滿重要的，不然永遠都是那幾個人在決定事情的發展或是創造什麼事情。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "很多不是不願意，其實有想過，他們考試就是這樣過，他們的人生道路就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "像那時候外交部找我，我說應該要找游適任，就找他。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "名單是怎麼回事？名單也出去了，基層說不知道名單。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "這也是我想提的，之後持續性參與公部門的計畫。我在這兩年，因為青諮的身分，因為我一直關心原住民的議題，其實我在原民會的審查會議，他們都主動打電話跟我說原民會的審查，因為大家其實都是教授，我覺得我的身分好像去了很奇怪，但是因為青諮身分在過程的審查會議當中表達對於這個議題的觀點，所以就會影響上一次國際化的爭議辦法。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "有時在開青諮會議是一種形式，有時也需要青諮委員的投入，也就是怎麼知道的，他們說是青發署推薦的，我不知道其他的夥伴們，投入在勞動部或者是文化部，他們可能有接到這個訊息，又或者是下一屆的委員建議不能投入在公部門任何的一個會議名單。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "像我如果有拜會，就邀請我去出席、參加審查，因此這兩年，我投入了幾個我覺得都是被決定的，他們會覺得怎麼找這一些人怎麼都怪怪的，但是還是去了，我去參與一個會議就是這邊應該要有一些條件，比如學生的文化素養、背景，這個表達就給公部門在決策一些事情上，就多好幾個面向。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "我建議假設之後沒有機會再投入到青諮委員這一種持續性發展的名單，我們這一些委員的經驗其實都是累積起來的，其實青諮的身分，我們更投入在某些事情上。如果達成永續的話，我建議之後各部會，如果有一些審查會議或者是其他的會議，可以邀以前的青諮委員投入，像其他的長官又很怕跟我們對話的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "像我去原民會開會，他們的處長跟副主委，因為我們都在那個場合，會議完畢之後就會聊很多的細節，我才知道原來以前是卡在這裡，這種是非正式的互動，其實是透過那一些場合才會有一些想法，那個委員才知道我不是意見很高的人，就是會給他們一些建議，並不是對立面的。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "廷卉其實在原民會，大家就覺得她是很犀利的人。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "她會知道喔！（笑）" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "但是原民會還是很需要她。這兩年的青諮身分可以投入，也就是參與到核心可以給一些想法。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "第二，未來如果要持續性讓委員投入，我覺得可以把這一些名單可以給部會的人，希望他們能夠繼續邀請我們投入在他們一些諮詢會議當中，看具體的辦法有沒有辦法落實。" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "像有關於性平廁所的事情，這個回應當然很保守，我完全採納，因為我很尊重公務員的決策，但是內容是什麼，其實就是要不斷地互動、強化彼此再教育，因此才會有一些內容出來，因此當然是完全採納，只是形式是什麼，我覺得還是要互動後才瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "是不是實際的參與？" }, { "speaker": "胡哲豪", "speech": "我有實際參與。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "等待是一種、參與是另外一種，或者是去認識其他人，就會覺得這個會議怎麼會沒有你，讓你知道，然後把訊息傳達出來。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我們現在已經有這個網站了，這個網站滿不錯，老實說，文化部在新莊辦公，怎麼可能認識在南部或者是這麼時尚的游適任，沒有辦法，你懂我意思嗎？真的很難。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "如果今天有部會發函給他們，他們不知道游適任、林文攀到底是什麼樣的人，只知道對什麼感興趣，可能找你來，好巧不巧中了一個人，很不錯，但是我覺得未來也許……我在思考，即便卸任，也就是在這個平台裡面，也就是未來變成如果一個年輕公務人員想要找人，就可以上來這邊找，類似這樣的概念。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "所以透過發文讓大家知道你的立場跟想法，而不是青年諮詢委員黃偉翔，這幾個字不會有這麼強的用處，對於這一些東西的內容，他們在需要的時候就會拿來。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "就是主動跟被動性都要有。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "延續剛剛的脈絡，想提另外一個面向，其實這兩年提案讓大家知道青諮到底在做什麼，也許有行政成本的考量，有別的青年未必是青年諮詢委員，但可以知道形式或者是工作坊或者是講座等等，讓大家知道這個委員會具體在做什麼、可以做什麼，也許在有一些體系的狀況下，等到未來可以進來的時候，相對那個磨合期會變短。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "所以會讓人家知道這個有問題，可以找青諮委員的誰來做，可能不是講座這麼僵硬的形式，是一個交流會，就是有幾個青諮委員、哪一個主題來邀請相關的人討論，也就是在這個領域想要透過一些體制內的改變，可以找誰提案，也會知道這個委員會在做什麼。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得可以，但是青諮委員的壓力就會超大。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要落實的話，青諮委員就需要國會助理。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "像「黃敬峰怎麼都不講話？今天已經開了三次會議，一次提案都沒有提。」我覺得這個是ok的。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "不過社會會有很多不同的壓力到青諮委員的身上。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "其實每一個城市都有，我覺得互相的資訊流通是可以的。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "經驗複製出去。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我覺得那一種方式是好的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "青發署有辦。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "弄到台北或者是新北。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "不一定我們是主角，然後這個政策是有不同的青年參與，這個是青年發展藍圖會議呈現這麼重要的原因。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "11月就要辦？" }, { "speaker": "陳愛珠", "speech": "12月1日的樣子，我們還沒有青諮的名單。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得滿有趣的，如果11月中才拿到，12月1日就要參加活動，好像有一點難，行程上我覺得有一點困難。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "邀請阿峰去會議分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "青諮會的網站，我想大家的網址保留絕對沒有問題，我看到已經在FB分享的網址，是絕對不會讓它失效的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實一開始上來的時候，第一個沒有這個網站，第二個是就像剛才這邊講得非常好，第一次去的時候覺得出現在這邊很奇怪，但是等到你混熟了，就是他們會發現一開會沒有你在，他們反而會覺得很奇怪，就是要從這個狀態變成那個狀態。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有網站、提案履歷或者是關心履歷，只是縮短這一個過程，不會免除這一個過程。不會一開始端一堆書面資料出來，無論我們網站做得再漂亮，就讓人家覺得沒有你在覺得很奇怪，這個沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像時間投入在比較有價值的位置上，就算自己心理覺得「在教授旁邊，要怎麼講得出話」。那個不適應期，自己過去越快，之後能夠跑的時間越長，確實是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "張珮綺", "speech": "就是剛剛大家講，我很多都很同意，我自己比較關注的是社會住宅，像社會住宅的議題是全台都在發展當中，像第一棟剛蓋好，所以不會馬上進到提案或者是政府運作了什麼，然後大家去改善或什麼的，像這樣的階段就會更需要能夠去參與正在進行的狀態，像非正式會議就很重要，這個是我個人的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "張珮綺", "speech": "不過內政部營建署的參與上，大概就只有最近幾個月的邀約，比較少交流到這一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "地方自治到目前還不是很理解哪一些事情在地方發生跟有什麼關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為地方都會說我們有「青年...」，大部分都叫「青年諮詢」，也有「青年參與」、「青年議會」，然後也有把兒少併進來，都有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但我自己的經驗，其實重點還是在事務體系，我們有一個很強的青發署當幕僚，那是一整個署的力量。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一些地方是有青年局沒有錯，有專職人力還好，甚至其他連青年專職都沒有，這樣的情況下，其實不太可能有一個很好的幕僚，那就要變成青諮裡面要有非常強的、又剛好很有空的組織者，否則幾乎就不可能像我們在做這樣的一種比較正規性的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有這個的話，跟中央接軌根本談不上，因為根本不知道接什麼東西，不可能說大家都去認識每一個縣市的青諮，這個是不實際的，一定是我們這邊關心跟他們關心的議題，用某種方式接軌。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果他們那邊的結構化程度沒有這邊的強，之前有一個提案是說硬性導入，但是後來發現很困難，所以目前比較軟性，就是政哲提過的，希望每一個縣市長把青年專責機關當作政見。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "也沒有要那麼硬啦！" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我剛剛跟政哲在旁邊聊天的時候，他有提到一個，他希望是可以讓不管是老闆或者是機關、長官知道青諮委員的重要性，讓大家來參加會議，並不是每一個人像阿峰當老闆，可以自己決定上班時間。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我也要問客戶是不是可以讓我來。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "就是讓老闆或者是他的長官知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "程序動議，他們說這邊到5點30分，如果大家要聊的話，可不可以去我的辦公室，這樣比較容易一點。" }, { "speaker": "張珮綺", "speech": "一開始創辦人是兩個人，但是嘉緣比較少參與，她滿忙基金會的事情，她比較少時間可以上來。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "前一個話題是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "就是怎麼樣取得假單。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果自己是老闆就比較容易。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "因為我的工作就是做這個，他也拒絕了很多，因為裡面有一個是政府應該要更去做一些，比如意見領袖等等的，就是減少大家參與的困境或者阻礙，那個阻礙可能是風俗民情這一類的，白話文是讓老闆知道我的員工裡面是行政院青諮是驕傲的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有人有實質需求嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我是老闆。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我去年在學校的時候來會議會很簡單，反正你選擇要不要去上課，就是要選這一件事，你想來就來，今年我在公司真的很難請假，而且我是一個實習生的角色，就更難每一個禮拜請假，這樣子會很尷尬。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "對這樣的議題是支持或者是同方向的？" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我記得不是有關的公司，跟政策完全沒有關係。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "他是左腦創意行銷，還算是相關，但是公司也要忙。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "而且有一個專案在推，他就會消失，就會很難。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "這個跟泰翔一樣。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "剛剛講到學生的身分，我剛剛提到培力，像在大一的時候進來，那時在上很基礎的政治學、行政學等等，其實同學都很有興趣，都很想要知道，未必是在裡面的角色，但是他們想要知道在裡面發生什麼事，因此我才會提是不是有一個分享會的形式，這個行政成本會提高，但是我覺得是滿好的事，也就是會激勵大家想要進來，也會讓青年想要參與這一件事的意願是提升的，也就是有一些管道是真的可以改變。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我印象滿深刻有人提案、部會會來，他們說不知道體制內有外部的聲音可以進入到這樣的政府，這一件事我覺得讓大家知道是滿重要的，相信才會進來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實這屆的拘束力是比以前高得多，賴院長一上來之後更是如此。確實是以前大家對青顧的印象不是這樣，所以確實是有宣傳的可能性。不過..." }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "這個在實務上青年署很痛苦。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我說行政成本會很高。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且辦完宣傳會之後，所有地方陳情案件如雪片般飛來。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "其他的能動性不可能這麼高，這個是委員可以做的，但是在困境底下，我覺得是有難度的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得跟地方青年機關是有可能性，這個是滿好的搭配。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但地方要是沒有青年機關，我們現在沒有辦法強求，只能透過像網路直播的方法。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "我主要是針對我的提案，我原本就有一個期待，就是希望一個現實的狀況被解決或者是改善，但是一個是我做了什麼，也就是職場分工跟現有的政策，但是看了之後，我覺得那一件事被解決，我覺得還是有滿大的距離。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "一直到上次跟政哲參加教育的部分，科技部的官員來，也看過我的提案，他就跟我閒聊的時候就透露他的想法，就覺得這個問題卡在什麼點不能被解決之類的，所以再約他出來談跟聊一聊，所以後續才會有更多的想法。" }, { "speaker": "許瑞福", "speech": "如果你只是自己上網看補助的東西，最期待的事情是看到眼前所發生的問題有得到改善跟解決，這個距離就滿大，因此可以加速這樣的近程，大家都有反映這樣的問題，不管提到關係人的培力，能夠加速這樣的近程是可以讓這個溝通可以對準，透過原本的方式或者是什麼樣的方式，我覺得是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "有時分享的時候，就會提到在提案前是轉化一個高度，也就是去請教那個部會的承辦人，也就是關心這一個議題，但是我們的問題在哪裡，然後去減少資訊落差等等的，這樣的東西在會前會出現會覺得是太晚的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "但是現在有發現幾個部會是，你提案了，但是部會也沒有辦法主動，也就是沒有辦法溝通討論等等，貢丸這邊也不會拿到承辦人的資料，我們都要到會前會才會知道，因此怎麼樣有意願留下聯絡方式，我覺得那個是有青年發展藍圖會好一些。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得會好一些，因為藍圖那邊來的公務員很多是年輕人。以前會前會的層級，他們來是不能講話的，因為上級也在，一般來講並沒有這樣講話的空間，但是在藍圖的層級，因為就只有他們在，所以約出去吃飯是當然的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在這兩個場合怎麼樣讓他都有，但是能夠彼此運作，因為不能只靠這一種informal也就是會變成大腸花論壇，也就是一直吐苦水，但是這一層如果沒有的話，就像大家都講過，可能前半年或者是一年都是靠這個formal的東西去壓到有informal的東西出現，但是那個對大家的時間成本耗費很大，所以informal這個部分如何從藍圖這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像剛剛講的，我們不能保證新一屆的青諮關心的都是青年藍圖裡的東西，也許關心的一些根本就是……" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "也許那一些東西是可以補進去的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也許。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "也就是什麼樣的類型、什麼樣的位置、可以跟誰反映或者是適合的方法，那個都滿不錯的，就是需要沒有那麼多人聽過或者是工作手冊之類的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這不是工作手冊，而是靠你很在意的東西再去瞭解它。不然大家記得第一次徐國勇政委……當時是發言人，現在是部長。他把公共行政最基本的概念，其實有一份簡報說怎麼導流、怎麼承辦等等，他是第一次大會就這樣講，可是大家都沒有印象了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當時大家並沒有某些很在意的東西，可以具體套進模型裡面，而我們都知道如果沒有主觀動機的時候，抽象模型是沒有解釋力的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在只是實際的東西，是不是拘束力不要大到一下子嚇到人，但是從青年藍圖裡面挑是一個做法，另外一個大家提，然後大家幫忙看一下，也就是是不是先在某一些比較低的層級，也就是把形狀弄得更完整，然後再到會前會來，我覺得這兩軌都要做。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我覺得持續參與，像定期的聚會其實滿不錯的，我們應該可以多參與這一種，像邀請我們，我覺得有一點怪，但是我覺得自己去搭一個平台來跟下一屆的人互動，又或者是提供這一些等等，我覺得不錯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且覺得身分很正常。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我剛剛講要用公務員他們懂的語言，還有反過來的是，基本上在大會，我幾乎聽不懂官員在回答什麼東西，也不是說要或不要，有一些委員聽得懂，就是說告訴要或者是不要，他就說會帶回去研究，有沒有可能請貢丸或者是請FB的粉絲頁等等，也就是有一些懂公務員的語言來告訴我們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是轉譯的工作。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "就是說no或者是延期的標準流程怎麼樣，至少可以聽得懂，有一些委員是有政治敏感度的，像我是完全沒有的，你跟我講什麼，我就會說到底在講什麼，他不是說要幹麻，結果他說沒有要做，的確實際上真的到了期末也發現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那一些說要做的就做了，說沒有要做的就沒有做，事實上是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我是真的聽不太出來想要幹麻。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "大家剛才都講了很多對公務員的期許，我自己在剛入公職的時候，在三級機關擔任承辦人，就擔任過行政院層級任務編組的幕僚，我自己那時在做彙總，一個議題只要列管超過三次，光資料、議題不斷的累加就變成純粹是一堆文字的堆疊，大家怎麼可能花時間去看，那一種東西都已經變成累積的、沒有意義的資料。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "其實我要講公務員對於大家的語言並不會聽不懂，其實會當公務員，有很多人是願意做事，有使命感的，不過我自己常常也有這樣的疑問，為什麼有些人進到公務體系之後，會變得這麼保守？是甚麼原因造成他這樣？這個當然是另外一個問題。但是很多公務員是願意做事，所有剛剛有委員提到有些個案與公務員協作之後有了成果，本辦公室之前為了錄製影片採訪過政哲，他也提到他從監督到協作的立場調整，相信那代表了很多委員的心聲。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "可是大家都知道互信是需要時間，互信建立了之後，很多對話的語言就會更直接，彼此就更容易找到彼此能接受的方式進行協作，很多想法就更容易落實。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "當然有一些是制度上機制設計的問題，陸續我們自己也在調整，像大家說沒有新生訓練的這一件事，其實我們已經在籌備第二屆的新生訓練，包括身為學長姐的各位都是其中的一環，把你們的經驗帶給大家，另外也包含青諮的角色定位等等，我們會提供一些資訊給大家，但是不會限制大家，包括大家認同的主持人，我們也都洽請她幫忙了。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "有一些事我自己聽了兩年，知道委員的想法是什麼，我們的功能就是站在協助委員達成想要完成的理念，同時也盡量利用行政部門既有的平台，讓行政部門更願意一起協作，同時也讓青諮委員的觸角延伸出去。我舉一個例子，像青發署有一個地方創生或青年好政的既有平台，我們可以利用像政委在社創運作很好的經驗，以主題式的方式，比如青農，我們利用既有的平台，結合特定的議題，讓青諮委員與在地青農或者是青年創業家或是地方的青年委員們，與中央的行政部門協作，一起解決實際面對的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這裡面很重要的是，現在只要開會的實際地點不是在院本部，我們真的就很靠每一個部會跟地方的聯絡關係，才能被通知到，所以這個是為什麼被找到都是在台北或者是院本部，因為跟地方真的還沒有接上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "反過來講，如果我們跟地方的連結越多，大家其實是很珍惜的，因為在台北找一個專家出席容易，但是在有些地方，像我是因為地方創生的關係，去一些完全不是六都，跟六都不太共享資源的縣市，他們會覺得從來沒有過，或者是「我們這個學校政委怎麼也會來演講」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣對我來講花費也不大，未來變成之後常規的一部分，不管是透過青年好政、地方創生，並不是專門只照顧這一小區的青年，而是討論一個比較大的政策，只是移動到在這個地方看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個形狀，確實沒有地方創生是很難進入軌道的，現在等於搭著明年創生的概念再多一點，這樣對南部的委員，心理相對剝奪感也會比較輕一點。" }, { "speaker": "張珮綺", "speech": "我順著中央跟地方的這一件事想跟大家請教，因為我最常接觸是台中市政府有關於社會住宅的議題，有一個現象是地方政府會有一個競爭關係，像新北、台中、台北及高雄，他們各自都有發展，但是他們會很怕被抄或者是很怕我講了之後……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "六都之間確實會有。" }, { "speaker": "張珮綺", "speech": "但是這一件事中央也不會施力，但是整體上是不好的發展，但是也不知道要怎麼施力，不知道其他有沒有這樣的現象？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實每次院會六都都會來，所以這個更明顯了。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我想分享一個想法，我有試過這一件事，也許在開會的時候可以先溝通一些事，讓彼此都知道為何來這裡，會議上要達到什麼樣的目的，我們可以在這個會議前、會議中、會議後，可能各做一些什麼事，確認大家都有這樣的認知上，我們再開始開會，不然很多時候，也就是大家自己心理的想法，也就是各開各的，其實不只是青年，部會常常也是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "像有一次在開我忘記什麼會了，整個會是我跟貢丸、莊科長的三個人對話，其他不會再參加青發署的會等等，又或者是青年藍圖會議，會覺得這個沒有被討論到，像我同事就很希望回去，但是另外一個前提是，家華說前一個禮拜或者是上午才知道這一個事情，但是認知是不太一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "因此除了理解不同之外，如何讓這一件事也可以讓大家在共同的平台上討論，這個也可以是試，然後每一次的會議就可以讓大家感受到青年在這裡可以幹麻，而那個期待不會是不一樣的。我好喜歡做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "補充一下剛剛提到本辦採訪政哲的濃縮版，如果大家沒有20分鐘看原版的話。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "政哲的想法是，剛進來擔任委員的時候，參與的目的是為了世代正義，一開始會想要透過院長的裁示、列管，來發揮監督的功能，後來運作一段時間之後，像青年圖像或者是高中生工讀的案子，他發現跟部會在理念上做合作，會比透過院長裁示列管有效，他認為這種互信協作的做法應該要制度化，此外他認為在跟部會協作，除了要有合作的理念之外，也也建議部會應該要聽多元的聲音、方法也很重要，其他細節在此就不多講。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "其實委員們提的很多想法，我個人是非常認同的，而且我覺得這個本來是我們行政部門應該要做的。因此之前在跟委員們討論時，我都會強調本辦的責任就是協助你們把你們想做的事完成，至於用什麼樣的方法更好，我們也正不斷的在學習，因為青顧跟青諮不管所產生的過程或者是運作的方式，其實不盡然完全一樣，我們自己也在進化當中，也會越來越好，而大家將來也都會變學長姐，我們也持續的需要大家共同參與。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "其實跟政府共識到現在，其實以前的公務人員就是長那樣子，我們後來才發現跟不同位置的人或者是可以談什麼樣的事情，又或者是基層的影響力溝通跟洗腦是很重要的，也就是一個有機會的激增公務員去做一些觀念分享，會有很多細節，如果長官不熟悉、不瞭解就過了，但是是可以實現的事情，剛剛偉翔講說認識這一個圈子裡面有誰，找頻率跟自己接近、想辦法切進去的，不一定要逞兇鬥狠的人，我不是說我是這麼逞兇鬥狠的人。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我去參加活動都是必恭必敬，一般的民眾都是走這邊，我的位置都是在前面幾排。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "常常是坐第一排。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "就被放著。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這個沒有正確的答案。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "像我們在部會，看到行政院的委員來，那當然要尊重。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我遇到一個很酷，講了很多的意見的公務員，他說公務員只是工作的一種，他隨時可以離開，但是並不是每一個公務人員都敢這樣說。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我參加一個會滿有趣，我忘記是哪一個部會，他說不要看我這樣，今天只要回去有多一個事項就完蛋了，他就會盡可能在文字上說「這不是我們專責的，那是有人可以協力」，確實我覺得承辦人會有滿多的擔心。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "或者裡應外合吧！他需要的是什麼，是如何達到目的，但是不會造成他的負擔。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "對，剛剛李欣講的是基層的問題，承辦人去開會，他可能很積極任事，但回去可能遭到長官的責難，這種事也並不罕見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "感謝各位累積這一些重要的材料給我們下一屆的青諮作為語系課程，我覺得這是實際大家看到的狀況，以前青顧的做法，他們可能是特定部會的特定三級機關，他們可以看得更深，但大概沒有辦法像這一屆這麼廣，我想綜合青顧那一屆跟青諮這一屆的深度跟廣度，我覺得下一屆至少一開始上手的時候，他的政治環境跟各位的政治環境是相連結的，我們跟青顧最大的困難是他們跟我們的政治環境完全沒有任何一個人重疊。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "你跟政委有交接。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我和馮燕、蔡玉玲老師都有交接。但是實務上，當時青顧跟事務官建立的信任感，我們青諮跟事務官得重新建立一次，實際上是這樣子，但是這樣子其中進來的有一個好處，就是至少政務跟事務都已經磨合到一個程度，所以我想第一屆跟第二屆青諮具體交接的深度，會比青諮跟青顧交接來得深。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "永遠記得他們給的建議，「勞動部跟教育部不要碰，不要擋人家的財路，我們去做那一些政府部門不會做的」……" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "當時也有會議紀錄的逐字稿，我有抓當時的逐字稿出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這讓我們理解到2014年的實際情況（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "所以我們做一個簡報就會很想跟大家說，不是第一或者是什麼，後來寄給大家，就是整個青年參與的脈絡或等等的，又或者是可以怎麼樣，不一定只是這個樣子，然後大家可以長成什麼樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "真的，因為青顧跟經濟部合作是比較多。尤其下一屆更是，各部會都有提委員的權利，所以廣度比我們這一屆更廣，深度就請大家幫忙加強。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大概這樣，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll be on the record, if that’s OK with you?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, yeah. No worries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s get started." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I was very impressed but what all you’ve been doing about misinformation. Similarly, India, we’re facing huge problem. The difference, I guess, here is that you’re trying to solve it. In India, the government & its machinery is propagating it." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Currently, it’s a right-wing religious government. They benefit a lot to misinformation and polarisation, so they have huge IT cell setups through which they’re running it. I co-run a company called CrowdNewsing. We do crowdfunding for independent news, well that was the initial idea." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "We started with that, but there are a lot of hate crimes against minorities where we are and people approached us, so we started raising funds for their sustenance & legal battles because no one was willing to stand up for them. Then, we pushed our campaigns towards an activist-friend who wanted to contest elections, so we raised clean money for him." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Now we’ve transformed into an initiative which is doing interventions wherever democracy can be saved, in a way and also where we could build a community. In that aspect, I was thinking a lot of things could be done here, and I would like to discuss with you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "We also have a couple of third-party fact-checking initiatives. There’s Alt-News and BoomLive. There are also lists of Facebook pages, websites, which create fake content. LINE is not that popular in India, as WhatsApp is, but there’s no way to track WhatsApp anyway. It’s end-to-end encryption, and they haven’t rolled out APIs in India yet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no bot on WhatsApp?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "No, not yet. They might introduce it in the next couple of months, but right now, nothing. WhatsApp is completely dark, but Facebook, Twitter, they keep on making these lists of fake page..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I know you don’t really use the F word [laughs] \"fake.\" Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "All those pages, accounts, these fact checking initiatives also do a real-time monitoring of them. So at the earliest, something which is damaging it’s being spread, they publish their own things about how this is wrong and how this is false information." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "An immune system?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Immune system in a way, but it’s still more in line with damage control. There’s nothing at the source we can do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s reactive then." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It’s reactive, and also affect is very small, because the amount of reach the government right now has to spread the messages is crazy." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Even the party president who heads the government, he has openly been saying that, \"You know, we have the capability to spread any message within an hour throughout the country, to every person in any village.\" They tried it a couple of times, spreading misinformation. They got the results out of it within six hours." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How does the \"to every village\" part work? Is everybody on social media?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "No, everybody’s on WhatsApp. They have a central IT system team. They run around...Last count was like 20,000 WhatsApp groups, which were run centrally in just one state election, and those are the party members. Those party members, at state level, will create sub-branches, for groups. At district level, they create branches and at the village level, they’ll create branches, and then it seeps into citizens whatsapp." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "They have a whole ecosystem of WhatsApp, at least. Facebook, you pump in money and you post it to whatever target you want. They’ve been doing it crazily. Even as a majority, I guess the same is in Taiwan. Most of the media here, it’s against the government in a way. That’s what I got the feel of after talking to people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is what?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Against the government, mainstream media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mainstream media, they make useful criticism. I wouldn’t say it’s just against the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, they would not want to be seen as government-controlled — certainly, they’re independent of the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we do something right, maybe they don’t applaud it..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...but they do report it fairly." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s not that bad." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we do something controversial, of course, they work with activists to bring different perspectives." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In India, it’s a totally different situation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s different?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Even the presentations and stuff. There were seven major news TV channels, news channels?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In India, we have more than 400 news channels, regional, the 30 states, and 28 official languages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s through cable mostly?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, mostly through cable. There are at least 100 satellite, central national television news channels, and 99 percent are owned by big businesses. The current government is very friendly with the big businesses, so there is no criticism of the current government which comes in the mainstream news & its all changing the real narrative." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "We also do the crowdfunding for roughly seven-eight independent journalist, media setups, online websites in total, basically, not the huge channel setup because it costs crazy. That’s also helping a lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At least access to social media is unrestricted?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, that is there. These independent channels are using Facebook and YouTube to promote the right news, this grassroots narrative countering the main stream narrative. That’s gaining momentum in a way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. In a sense the freedom to assemble online is still there." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It’s there, but it comes at a risk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course it is risky inherently, but also what you’re describing is that in the mainstream media, there’s few sympathizers that can amplify the message on the social media to the mainstream?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah. That has worked a couple of times, but it requires a lot of organizing. There were a lot of hate crimes going on, so we had a huge protest called Not In My Name. It happened in 30 cities in India and 15 cities abroad, London, New York, we mobilized in such huge way, so then the prime minister had to reply to that, but that’s one-off instance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has to be really viral." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Really viral. We had an opportunity that the PM was in Germany then, and I knew a couple of campaigners, activists in German/International media. They published stories there, and there he was pressurized to make a statement that this is not acceptable & \"I will do something to stop the hate crimes.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like #MeToo." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, similar to #MeToo." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Today it’s #WontBeErased that’s trending in Twitter hashtags." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What you’re saying is that it needs an international organization for the government to take it seriously?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Take it seriously. It was not just social media, but it was homegrown, so we had 30 homegrown protests in different places. That helped in a lot of way, because all the local media covers it. That one thing, if even the mainstream media ignores you, local media they need news, so they will cover if you’re doing something local." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That is one of the ways we have been trying to tackle misinformation by promoting local media and independent media which works in a specific region, which has history of violence, which has a history of problem, so which gets inflated by the mainstream news. An initiative we raised money for is called ’Chal Chitra Abhiyan’" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "We have some certain startups there, small startups there, who work on those news and who maintain the peace, at least for now. That’s working in a way. Are you doing a campaign to tackle misinformation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To tackle misinformation?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I’m asking you. Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are many campaigns." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let me bring my iPad." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Sure. Can I have some water?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. The main campaign is called media literacy, and it’s part of an education reform. Before joining the cabinet, I was a K-12 curriculum committee member." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we’re essentially doing is to make media literacy part of our K-12 education. Next year we’re rolling out in the first grade of primary high, the first grade of junior high, and the first grade of senior high the media literacy curricula, and it is not a specific class." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a way to teach civics, to teach mathematics, to teach physics, to teach anything using Internet-based sources, but with the teacher like a navigator explaining the framing of the messages and show the student how to see through the media framing and narratives and make decisions of itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the main...We’re the first one in Asia to basically say a teacher is no longer the authoritative source of truth, because everywhere else in Asia its teacher represent authority. There’s the standard answer, and you have to basically agree with the teacher to get a grade." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "There have been a lot of rewriting of history in India now, so they have been trying to...Misinformation is not just limited to news, but they’re even trying to put it into curriculum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s an example." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "What you’re trying to do is you want to create media literacy in schools..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the sense that everybody can form their own opinion. In Taiwan, the history of Taiwan is very different if you’re taking an Austronesian indigenous people viewpoint, or if you take it a viewpoint of people who lived in the Dutch colonies and the Koxinga period, or of people who lived under the Qing and under the Japanese rule, or people who came with the Kuomintang, and also newcomers from all over the world, especially from the Indo-Pacific region..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody brings a different view to Taiwan so there are no \"official\" history. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "There are certain facts which are there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which are there, but we make it clear that these facts are felt differently by different people. We think the more complete the picture is the more capable the student will be able to form their own opinions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not censoring history. We’re doing the exact opposite. We’re uncovering the different memories from different groups of people around the same historical fact, but with the teacher or of civics..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Narratives are different." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...in a facilitative role. Not saying that you have to interpret it this way, but encourage students to deliberate from very different angles. In the classroom, there will also be students from different backgrounds." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In terms of rewriting history in India, they are changing the end results of wars basically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, wow." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "There is a written historical reality of which king won and which king didn’t. Apparently, when there was a Mughal invasion in India and there were Hindu kings, local kings, most of the Hindu local kings lost because the Mughals had a huge army. They had artillery, everything. Now, they’re trying to rewrite the history that no, they won." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s what I’m saying in terms of facts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You think it’s out of a motivation of..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It’s out of a motivation of appeasing the Hindu majority. This is right-wing Hindu government so they want to portray that they are the saviours. You need their government to make sure that Hindus are safe, which are 79 percent. They’re not under threat, but they want to create the perception that they are under threat." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s more of, you think, a patriotic kind of education?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, patriotic. It’s a false propaganda. It’s not based on history, and history in terms of just the end result of a war, not how it happened and what had been happened -- there can be perspectives and views about that -- but changing the outcome and claiming something which is not true." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s also happening in terms of changing curriculum. You’re trying to teach students to make their own opinions. Here, you’re imposing a false opinion to students." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right. We think the current misinformation, they piggyback on people’s ideologies. If those ideology are formed in a authoritative way, then the news that carries these messages, they only receive the part that agree with their authoritarian ideologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The news may be multifaceted, it may be nuanced, but if people are trained in one ideology, then they only take the part that they see..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and amplify it. It’s not, strictly speaking, an issue of journalism? It is an issue of people selectively understanding?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It’s both layers. People selectively understanding is there. The last four years, this government has been in power in India. The way people used to perceive two years back has changed. They’re not that adhered supporter of the government maybe, some of them." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "They’re changing because they also realize how the governments performance is weak economically. They also realize, \"OK, this information was false, which the prime minister claimed that this has happened, and it didn’t happen.\"" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Some of them realize it and some of them are changing, but who are sold to the strong ideology, they won’t change. At the same time, if the mainstream media keeps on repeating the same propaganda again and again and they also don’t have avenue to change their opinion, even if they want." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In that way, media needs to be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To be more balanced." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, I guess balance is the way. [laughs] That was one of the major reasons we started crowdfunding, because media today is controlled by corporate. There’s no way you can change that in mainstream." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you use subscription-based crowdfunding or just one shot, transactional?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "We do campaign based." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just transactional crowdfunding?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Just transactional because sustenance-wise there are a lot of independent websites. They have subscribers who pay monthly donations. We did around seven - eight media campaigns." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Out of that, one was a very senior investigative journalist Paranjoy Guha Thakurta who was removed from an organization because he did a very strong anti-corporate story, against a group owned by Gautam Adani, our PMs bff. The corporate filed a case. The media organization removed him. Then he was like, \"I want to do independent. I’m not going to work with anybody now.\" Then we raised around two million for him. For the last year, he has been doing amazing stories, books, research." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Because he is independent, he has no pressure from the media organizations. We also helped expand a set up of a grassroots media company in a very violent area of a state where there was a huge polarization of Hindus and Muslims." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Now we can see that after one and a half years it has been effective, that the incidence of violence has gone down. People are coming together thanks to this media because it’s showing different angles. It’s showing different opinions and perspectives, which they won’t see." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Do you think crowdfunding will work here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here, we have a history of very successful crowdfunding. During the Occupy, there was a huge crowdfunding effort that put all the advertisement and even on international media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Recently, subscription-based crowdfunding has been on the steady rise, which is why I asked you about this. We are also seeing shareholding crowdfunding in a sense that you crowdfund, but you become a shareholder. It is actually not recurring... It’s the other way around because it earns money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can earn back the money you put forward. We’re also seeing, of course, ICOs/STOs here, the initial coin offerings and security token offerings. There’s a bunch of friends now working on a journalism project called Matter News. What they offer is two things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, everything that an independent journalist posts on it is guaranteed to be stored on the InterPlanetary File System, which is a distributed system that cannot be changed. It guards against censorship from the editor or from the government. The piece of investigative report will stay there forever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You cannot change it. The immutability is one. The second is that they’re designing an economy on it so that people who initially donated or joined a subscription-based membership gets the tokens to reward quality journalism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can, for example, collectively refocus on a pressing social need that currently no mainstream news is tackling and fund the journalist to work that. The journalist who make these things and publish it to the immutable blockchain then becomes material that other journalists can reliably use." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because previously if you don’t have the copyright issue, and you don’t have the storage issue and persistence issue solved, then it tend to be just one piece of investigative journalism, which is good. People are more caring about how their mobilization or intervention changed the situation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are not just caring about the current situation or how bad it is. [laughs] They want to know how they can, through a series of intervention, then investigative journalists can follow everything. Like when the mobilization happens, it’s like 50 different branches." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need maybe not a senior, but still very important, contributors to follow these. The important thing is to put it back to the same thread so that people can understand it from a historical perspective. That is one effort that I think is worth watching." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s another one by a long-time friend of mine called Readr. It’s participatory journalism. It encourages independent curators to piece together the context of the news." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, if I care about human right, I can connect what’s happening in Taiwan with what’s happening elsewhere in Asia, and see a common trend, or as you say, those international hashtags. One can do editorial work to put this in perspective so that initially, maybe Taiwan people will not care about what happened in your country, for example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through curational work, we can link together and say, \"While this is happening, this happened in Taiwan 20 years ago. Because we made this change, this sort of thing doesn’t happen again.\" You can now also help them in whichever way and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this curational work is equally important." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It gives a very good context to it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It gives people a hope that they can make a difference, and that is, I think, as important as the original content work." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In terms of fact checking, are you supporting third-party fact-checkers?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v community has a project that’s recognized in the LINE community as a well-known bot. The idea, very simply is, as you mentioned, in WhatsApp, it’s all in the dark." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By getting the bot, the CoFact bot, into everybody’s consciousness, the community people can encourage their parents and their family to, whenever they see a piece of potential misinformation, just share it to the bot. The bot then crowdsources fact checking and get back to them whether it’s true or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What this actually builds is, it surfaces what’s on the darknet into the light. When you share to the bot, if more than two people share it, it automatically gets into the Google indexable public consciousness. It becomes a social object." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, most misinformation spread assuming that it only reach the people who already believe in that ideology or conspiracy. Once it become a common social object, people can contribute. Then it becomes less viral, because the time that the person receives it, they have already heard from somebody else that this thing is spreading." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It’s a long chain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. It basically shortens the distance of propagating and discovery, which is always the critical part. Once it’s discovered by the general public, the general public is more than well-equipped to do fact checking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The problem was initially that it can stay months in the dark without people knowing that there’s already reaching hundreds of thousands of people, but we don’t know the content or the payload, aside from anecdotes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think CoFacts mostly work as this venue. The government supports them not with money or with people — which will destroy the neutrality — because we want to be fact checked too." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s good. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever we make a mistake in communication, we publish on the home page of the administration as quickly as possible. Also, if we found that other news has reported a partial information, we aim to put forward our part of the information in a kind of piece of puzzle, everybody puzzling together stunts also in our administration home page." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, within one news cycle, like five hours or less. So people get into the habit that if they see something spreading on CoFact or on other channels in the morning, by noon, our ministry will come forward and say, \"This is what we know about this.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People learn, because in paper-based magazine, you can have a balanced reporting. In the Internet, it’s impossible. Even if you write something like this, people with ideology just take a snapshot of one side and spread that. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That happens a lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of a space-based balance, which is gone anyway, we are now seeking for a time-based balance, so that when there’s a piece of information, right afterward, there will be a clarification. Now, of course, the civil society can also challenge that, but then it becomes like a turn-based game." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I make a move, you make a move, and it is more rational this way. In a frenzy of mob lynching or whatever, people don’t take a deep breathe or wait until noon. People just share an act in an outrage. What we are contributing is this sense of a very reliable and timely clarification and response." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "What I saw in the presentation was that this bot has very limited reach right now, some 50,000 or 60,000 subscribers?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s the regular people who use it. What I’m saying is that, because they publish on the public Internet..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "They spread it around on the public Internet, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we don’t ban the publication of rumors on the Internet, if we ban it, CoFact will not be possible, [laughs] so there’s also more people who are not CoFact users, but they are using individual CoFact URL on Facebook or other social media as topics for discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That reaches far many people than the CoFact core users. The core users just do the initial reporting, but the social media and so on can amplify it. As I must stress again, the main contribution of CoFact is that it gives the URL to a darknet message that previously doesn’t have a URL." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It doesn’t have a URL." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This URL becomes topic for Facebook, or whatever other public discussions. That’s the main contribution." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "On ground, is there anything being done to tackle it? This is still social media, face-to-face, or community level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we are doing at the moment is three things. The first is my personal office hour. Everybody can come and talk to me. I also hold weekly gatherings every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. I’m just here in the Social Innovation Lab, so people can come talk to me. It really helps clarify, like if you know what people..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "You’re going to be there tomorrow?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll be there tomorrow." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I’ll drop in. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just come by. What I mean is that if you know a friend, you can visit every week, if you hear gossip about them. Of course, it will be clarified within a week, but if that friend only writes back to you, and every five months, [laughs] now, of course, the rumor has room to spread." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Office hour, and then it’s not just two people in Taipei. I also tour around Taiwan to talk with the regional innovators. That also helps to dispel myth and rumors. That’s the first thing. The second thing is that for citizen-originated petitions, sometimes citizens petition for something that could provoke a lot of outrage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There were people who petitioned for Taiwan to change its time zone from plus-eight to plus-nine. It’s like 8,000 people. What we do with the petitioners is very unique, because we don’t just respond to them on social media, which will only fan the flames, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In another way, there’s also a counterpetition of more than 8,000 people, saying Taiwan should remain GMT plus-eight. They were proposing all sort of very wild arguments, like changing one hour will save energy, will increase tourism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever it is a social focus like this, we actually invite the petitioners from both side to the same room, face-to-face. It’s even live streamed, so people can join online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use design thinking methods, and have a team of participation officers in every ministry whose work is to talk with emergent social activists in a way that we use design thinking methodology to make sure all the different, a cacophony of ideas, is well-represented in an overview." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we co-create possible solutions by asking, you have different ideology and position, obviously. Are there some common values? Like in the time zone case, we actually, each ministry made a report how exactly changing one hour will change the energy. It doesn’t change much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will not increase tourism. There will be some price to pay for the initial migration. There will be some ongoing cost, and so on. We ask, what are you really doing this for? After a morning of meetings, we decided collectively that what people can agree, regardless of which way they petitioned, was that they wanted Taiwan to be seen more unique in the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is something that everybody can agree. The time zone is just one solution to this common problem, this common value. Then we say, first, it would cost a lot. Also, there’s many countries with many time zones." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is many countries, like Hong Kong, has its own currency. It doesn’t actually make Taiwan that unique. Maybe it will make international news for a day, and everybody forget about it. We have to pay ongoing cost, so maybe not the best idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then the time zone petitioner actually become convinced. Then we started to brainstorm, given this budget, how can we actually make it better use, and make Taiwan more unique? Then they started brainstorming about, for example, we can emphasize our work on human right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe we can do the open government, diplomacy. It collectively always result into, like this is our tax filing system, which was really ugly. People petitioned against it, and almost started protesting, and calling the minister of finance to resign." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we invite everybody who petitioned. They automatically get an invitation to co-creation meeting. People just collectively made a better version this year. 96 percent of people likes it, and other 4 percent, they know their ideas will be brought into the next year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this co-creation is really we being humble, and say people who petition or who protest, it’s because they care." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Always the case." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They know something that we don’t know about this thing. Maybe we can be humble and invite five of them, and listen." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That builds your own community, in a way, that you’re responsive to people’s problems and issues. Then there’s nothing more they want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Then all the 16,000 people who participate in the time zone petition then become kind of friend. They all receive a newsletter of what we have discussed, the points. They are free to still keep their ideology, but at least on the factual basis, we’re on the same factual basis." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what I referred to as the public health way to ensure public access and collaborative decision making in a transparent institution. If we do this right, then misinformation does not grow into organized disinformation, because there’s no need to." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "There’s no need for it? Also, this still looks to me like more of an urban and social media phenomenon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, we go to the rural part, like in Hengchun, the southmost part of Taiwan. They petitioned for helicopters [laughs] to station there as ambulance because they are very far from a largest hospital nearby. It’s a real local medical need." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it can be solved in many different ways, it’s not solved until we went into it. It could be solved by having helicopters or it can be solved by working with the ministry of defense which has an airbase nearby or it can be built by building a faster road or it could be fixed by having a better hospital. There’s multiple solution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, whenever there’s this cross-ministry or interagency issue, then agency A just say, \"You know, we think B is the better solution. Agency B was the, is the better solution.\"" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "[laughs] It’s funny how..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] C would say, \"A is better solution.\" Then it goes nowhere. It has been like that for 10 years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because our participatory regulation, which I can send a copy to you, has this key clause that says, \"You know, if there’s more than two, uh, um, agencies, uh, two or more agencies who think each other should own it, uh, they all own it.\" They cannot escape." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the six ministries went to Hengchun with me. Then we start a real town hall discussion that’s two rooms. One is with the stakeholders and the petitioners. There’s 8,000s of them. Then there’s maybe eight of them in the smaller room doing a more expert deliberation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m in the larger town hall which can have hundreds or even thousands of people. I’m like an ESPN anchor..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...to explain to them what this move means in layperson’s language." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I suppose you’re not too popular among the ministries?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Quite the contrary. Really, the larger room views a live stream of the smaller room but not the other way around. People who want to protest or whatever, they can reach me directly but without interrupting the discussion in the smaller room." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I don’t think anywhere in the world this model has been applied or worked. It’s really amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but this really works." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end, we collectively decided the insight which is the common value which is we need to keep the heart of the nurses and the doctors to the local clinic. The people need to trust their local health workers more. If we send all the people who suffer injury or whatever to Kaohsiung, then gradually people will not even trust their local medical doctors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We allocated a lot of money actually. I think it was 10 million USD, a large amount of money, 3 billion NT dollars, to build a really modern, state-of-the-art hospital there including the place to live and the latest medical devices. Of course, the local doctors and nurses, there’s no such amount of number to operate them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say, \"We can make the Kaohsiung people visit HengChun to train. Uh, and if something really happens and there’s no local doctors, we can fly doctors from Kaohsiung here instead of flying patients.\" because if you suffer a stroke, flying you to Kaohsiung doesn’t make sense. [laughs] People generally agree this is actually better because then the local doctors and nurses can learn from those trips." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the end result. Every other Friday, we run this collaboration meetings. The next Monday, I bring to the prime minister and other ministries a portfolio like, \"This is what people want, and, and did you agree?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the premier agrees, for example, in this example, he just went to Hengchun to understand the situation himself two weeks afterward and say, \"OK, so we’re allocating the budget.\" Then that’s solved." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s much quicker. I don’t think policies are made out so quickly anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. It’s meant to be a reaction to the already organized. We’re in a sense just amplifying what the local organizers already know without the local organizer because it’s a really small town. They don’t even have this number of people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They had to organize by inviting people who stay for B&B. Before they check in the B&B, they have a QR code saying, \"Do you know what will happen if you run into a diving accident here?\"" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] \"Before you check in, you better sign the petition.\"" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s smart." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They really summon us to the rural place. We even did offshore, like very small island like the Marine National Park in Penghu in the Pescadores. It is used not just in an urban or social media. It’s really used in a rural, as well." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s nice to know. [laughs] Also, the general impression is that government should take a lead on tackling misinformation, which is still third-party fact-checker thing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Not major government initiative?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, the major government initiative is in the sense that..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "It’s just reactionary. If you heard something, then you clarify on the website that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we don’t lie. We clarify our mistakes. If we find people who are mistaken, we clarify quickly. That’s the extent of it. People are worried, of course, that we will move to a priori censorship, which is very popular in Asia. [laughs] We’ll never do that because Taiwan really has the freedom of speech as our core value. [laughs] We’re not changing." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Every other day, there is a case against a media organization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, which is why I don’t say fake news because both my parents are journalists, [laughs] out of filial piety." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "They must be so troubled to see what is happening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. I think there’s a rediscovery of the value of quality journalism, because social media has proven to be more emotion than facts. Traditional investigative especially journalism is about facts and then emotion. It’s a different order. I think this is still of value." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Do you think not a government initiative but some independent initiative on a larger scale which is crowdfunded so people have a stake in it? They have ownership in it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "The end result is for people because they are the one who are affected by it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s for public good." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "This would also make it mainstream news that this initiative has been working. It started. Then people who are contributing have a stake in it. Then their family and friends will also be involved. It’s happening." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "The general feeling which I get is that it’s not happening at a larger scale which needs to be done. I don’t know. I have just been here for four days. I travel and talked to a lot of people. That’s what it is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there are several things here. First is that traditionally, the media itself, especially media with longer history, they say, \"We already do fact checking well.\" They have a history of a newsroom fact-checking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "An independent fact-checker to them is a new idea because they thought, \"You know, we, we already do fact checking, even transparently. So why do we need another fact checker to check our facts? [laughs] We’re already doing that as part of media.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that sentiment is really what prevents the independent fact-checking campaigns from really growing, because they don’t yet have the endorsement of traditional large media." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "If people are unhappy with the traditional larger media, then we’re to take off in a good way. That’s the sense I get, that people are really unhappy with the mainstream media here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The TV perhaps?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, mainly TV." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think magazines and special segment newspapers, they’re still doing fine. Paper-based media, I think generally people still respect to a degree. It is true that mainstream TV is not as popular as it was." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s also a problem here in the sense that people think if it’s on TV, then you have a license, you a cable, you have a broadcast power. Of course, you need to be held into a higher standard whereas anybody can print anything. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Hence actually the opposite." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nowadays, as you said, it’s actually the opposite. Printing something is very costly. It’s very expensive. Everybody can put anything on your screen now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "They’re just advertisements for your pay." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I think it’s really a perception change that need to happen before people actually can understand the idea of a crowd-curated media maybe works for everybody’s benefit more." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Because people have stake in it, they are the contributors. It would be again as you are saying that people are shareholders. They are the stakeholders. They can hold them accountable for everything they do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re seeing that over the world as well. For example, in Bristol, UK, there is still a broadcast station that is a co-op. Basically, everybody in the community is a owner. A co-op, regardless of how many shares you hold, you get one vote. It’s democratic governance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re seeing more and more of that in Taiwan as well in a local way, a local magazine, a local station. I would say in the sense of that it’s spreading, it’s really spreading. In the sense that we can’t point to it and say, \"Oh, that’s our new paradigm, like this is a really large one,\" we don’t have that. We have maybe thousands of small attempts." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Also, in terms of now government policies which are misrepresented in the people, is there conscious effort to do something about it? It will not be a government propaganda in a way because you are just trying to counter the misrepresented narrative which is being spread around. I guess for nuclear plant, there’s an issue with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I think what we’re now doing is what we call the policymaking context or the accountability trail and account for a policy. There’s many good attempts in Taiwan that basically starts participation way before the policy is made, because if we involve people only on the later stage, the just go to the referendum now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s important to have a flow of how people’s ideas can get into the final synthesized white paper. For example, you just mentioned energy. We have an energy transition white paper that transitions into renewable energy but in a way that people can trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a design. This is not by me. This is by a bunch of friends and people in the energy bureau in the ministry of economy to basically talk to people face to face around Taiwan. It’s like what UNDP did when consulting for the sustainable development goals. They asked millions of people and have a synthesized report, \"The World We Want.\" Then this is very much like it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We hold any number of meetings and collect everybody’s word. You can see who said what when and where. It’s color coded. Then it shows the segment that it flows through, the working groups that synthesize these ideas into recommendations. Each ministry have to respond and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people who really participate in any of it, they will go back to this website to see how their words flow into the accountability trail and give comments. Of course, if you haven’t participated in the process, just from the abstract, I agree that this is not sexy enough [laughs] to draw people in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what we see in, for example, the National Forum on Justice Reform, the National Forum on Cultural Policy. This is again a very national forumish thing. We have many national forums that are currently of this shape." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have some good qualitative indication that people who actually participated, it really changes their way of seeing the policy-making context. It’s less likely for misinformation to flow for these people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each one now maybe only reach 5,000 or 10,000 people of the 23 million people in Taiwan. We’re still beginning. I’m not pretending to say that we’ve solved it. This is the way we’re scaling this out." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That’s why I was saying - on-ground initiatives also are required for this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is all underground." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Reach-wise, it’s still very limited as you mentioned." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is very limited. In the next step, what we’re doing is now we’re working on a SOP for running this sort of thing. Through the evolution, we make sure that all the municipalities know how to run this themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taoyuan, they have run this kind of participatory budgeting for people who are immigrant workers. They really include people from four different Asian countries. They were not voting citizens. Nevertheless, through participatory budgeting and translation service, they can integrate and collectively decide something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also working with the Tainan City government who has introduced the same participation officers network. In here, it’s all 34 ministries have a team of PO. In Tainan, it’s in every department and every bureau. They will also talk with the municipalities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our experience is that the smaller the jurisdiction and region is, the easier the on-the-ground operation. The challenge is always but people don’t feel the same way in the other city. They don’t bother to check the Internet version of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The way we think around it is to have people around Taiwan talk about the same thing in the same time. That will increase the solidarity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There was an early example of that around climate change. In World Wide Views, people connected Taipei, Taichung, and Tainan I think and basically have each room to be a large projection of two walls that connects to other cities. People can make exercises together or dance together..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and feel that they’re on a larger virtual room, 100 people each, about 300 people in total." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Wow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That worked pretty well. People really feel that, \"Oh, so we’re in the same space, and we’re, we must participate in a way that, uh, take care of every corner of Taiwan, not one city at the expense of the other city.\" This is also something we can try because it very low cost. It only require a few projectors. [laughs] We’re also working on that." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In terms of a larger narrative, misinformation I guess is the most damaging for the good in government. In terms of changing that larger narrative, in terms of getting out what really the government has been doing in terms of policies and effects, is that being done also? Or it’s just reactionary to things?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I said, all those context-making exercises is done before a policy is made. That’s my focus." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Even during the process and after the policy has been made, there’s still a lot of misinformation flowing around with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s true. We make short films. We make easy to understand, bite-size information. Actually, CoFact is useful in that too because CoFact has some facts people reported because it goes viral. It’s actually true. We also learn from those viral true messages how to package. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Reach-wise, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, because zero community really helps. For example, just a few days ago, there was a train accident." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Day before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. There’s many different source of information, from the ministry of health and Welfare about people who are impacted, from the railroad station itself, and from the local government and everything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Got the g0v people usually make one collaborative folder every time that there’s a major accident. This is kind of a tradition now. You can see bilingually all the relevant informations about..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can search for whether your family is impacted. You can if you want to do blood donation and how currently the levels of blood requirement is. You can also very easily crowdsource this Wikipedia and list of people. You can also crowdsource against misinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is one misinformation collection folder about all the misinformation that’s spreading, like people add to Wikipedia a piece of false information that says, \"The premier says that, um, the driver, um, is a CCP party member, and this is an act of sabotage...\"" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Exact same incidents happen. In India also, four days back, there was a train accident. The misinformation which has been spread is that the driver was a Muslim and he intentionally derailed the train." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why the community reacts within seconds and then first publish...Of course, they went to Wikipedia and fixed that. I think it’s important to inoculate people." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "To tell what all has happened." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are people intentionally spreading it. It’s this IP and so on. Then, of course, there’s also mainstream media that says, \"Uh, maybe, uh, people suffered because they have not wore seatbelt, um, on the train.\" but there’s no seatbelt on the train. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Wow. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Clearly misinformation." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That is mainstream media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s even mainstream media. What I’m saying is that the government, of course, by partnering with the civic hack community, we can get the message out in a timely fashion. Basically the ministry of health and welfare and all the ministry I mentioned, they just provide the raw data, like a Excel file." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "How much is the reach of this? I guess it boils down to ultimately that, what percentage of people you reach with this correct information." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have the numbers. I think previously, which we do have numbers, the g0v and extended network easily reaches, just the core subscribers, is a quarter million people. With the similar network on social media and people who share it, I think it easily reaches millions of people. How many millions this time, I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the Sunflower, because the g0v was this hub of all the Occupiers’ information, it’s not just the reach, which is easily in the million. How many million I don’t know, but the public trust on the information here is higher than the government’s own news source. We need to work with them [laughs] to be seen as accurate. There’s..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Now you’re saying that there’s this IP which published this misinformation, so you’re not working actually on creating a list of these IPs and monitoring it real time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The civic tech people do some trace back, but this is a professional, and it’s located in the UK and clearly a jump board." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Jump IP." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A jump IP, and so we don’t get...which is why I’m not actually that a fan of using IP address to indicate anything, because especially now with IPV6, it’s so easy to get any IP you want." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Not just IPs. Now on a Facebook format, we know that there are these 500 Facebook pages which are in the business of running fake news throughout the day for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For that people, people..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "People, pages, false accounts, all that stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In PTT, which is our main forum, like Reddit, there’s people who run automated tools to see which kind of people log in just to post one message and then log out immediately and people who operate in some time zone and work for 12 hours, and fully. [laughter] They’re semi-automated people who does this as a job, just go to work and leave work, very consistently." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Professionals, basically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "However, this is not censorship." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "This is not censorship, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The community is just..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "People should know that these are the names and these are the pages which are in the business of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which has a certain pattern." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just like junk mail." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "We are at a point, people who will trust them. That’s the whole game..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the whole point. It’s not to take their ability. It’s just like people decided maybe people in Nigeria....They still deserve the right to send email. We’re not saying people from Nigeria should not send email. We’re saying if they claim to be a Nigerian prince, maybe they should reach fewer people." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Exactly. There’s no notion of censorship anyway, but this thing at least should be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Let me check. I had made pointers of what we can talk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "This is just an overview I made. Have a look at it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think all these are really good proposals." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I don’t know how the government functions here and how the government could take up any of these initiatives. I’m not sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m working with our Minister without portfolio in charge of law, Lo Ping-Cheng, in this matter. I’m more of a social media and technology adviser to him. He is the main person coordinating this work, assisted by me and by our spokesperson Kolas Yotaka, to devise a comprehensive strategy on disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I said, because my background is more in the civic tech, education, and social media, I share with you the part that I know or I’ve already done. Of course, there could be additional efforts, the ones you outlined. If you don’t mind sharing that with me, of course I can discuss it with Minister Lo." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I would email you that. I would like to help. I don’t know which way I would be able to help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We will roll out, for sure, a plan of what to do before the election, but any regulatory changes...." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "People need to know that, that the committees hear..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...that will be after this election." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That will obviously come after." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just want to make sure that everybody has a psychologically safe zone on the Internet to share and partake in the fact-finding effort together. That’s our ultimate goal." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Are you going beyond CoFact and..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Media Watch or fact checking or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "When people’s participation increases, that’s the real change you’d..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "...I would want to see, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a longer-term goal. In the short term, we just want to make sure that organized disinformation does not create a threat so that people are afraid of speaking authentically online because that will harm the participation." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "In India, we face a huge threat for that. Even protesting or asking question is completely anti-government now. Anybody asks questions about government policies or something false which the prime minister has said, you’re labeled as anti-national in India Now. It’s very clear." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, but we don’t have that problem here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we don’t want to see is that, through this government action plan on disinformation..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That might happen, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...we don’t want to create a sense of self-censorship. Individuals acting out of their curiosity — not malice — and posting something that maybe be speculation, creating a parody for discussion, an invitation for discussion, this is totally not disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If, when reacting to disinformation, we make these people less safe to post, it would take away people’s freedom. Maybe that’s what the organized disinformation perpetrators really want. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, to push you to that brink, they do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, exactly. We were not bulging." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Not that, but in terms of mainstream media, when they’re consciously spreading misinformation, that needs to be checked in a way. Mainstream media is, again, bound by media ethics. It’s not a free..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. We’re working on that too, a SOP of fact checking. The mainstream media used to say, \"There’s no source to fact check, so we just take what’s on the Internet and post it.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re now saying, \"You know, we have fact-checking independent repository. We have the government clarification repository. We have all those feeds that, even with automated, means that delivers before you.\" It’s no longer a good excuse..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...to just say that we don’t have anything else to look to or nobody else to ask, or, \"The government doesn’t return our calls.\" [laughs] That’s not..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "That doesn’t seem to be the case." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s not the case. [laughs] People who ignore these, then maybe we will have a way to show they’re not following the SOP. I think this is important to let everybody know. As you said, the ultimate goal is not to revoke their license or whatever. It is just to let people know which media is doing journalistic work..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Automatically, they’re run out of business..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and which media is maybe doing a non-journalistic kind of work." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Upholding journalistic ethics, that’s ultimately the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right. Yes, we’re fostering that culture." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Awesome [laughs] . Would you be able to share the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The plan?" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Yeah, whatever it’s fine for you to share." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, of course, once it’s published." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "I’m happy to go through it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "The media literacy thing which you are trying in K-12." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re going to make a full transcript, and then I will send you an email to edit away anything you don’t want. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "No. It’s there. I spoke whatever I wanted, anyway, so that’s no problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For supplemental information like the slides and the curriculum, we’ll collect a list of links. We publish everything, including our dialog, in the same URL, 10 days after this. You can point people to this because then it will be a more complete context." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "The whole..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of individual..." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Just the slides. It will be even beneficial for me to remember what we spoke and what the slides are for." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Anand Mangnale", "speech": "Thank you so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "非常感謝大家今天來參加PDIS跟內政部、海委會共同合辦的開放政府議題協作會議，今天是我們各種不同議題的第四十場。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "相信各位在會前都有收到相關的會議資料，今天的會議希望跟大家一起來協作，一起來想一想怎麼樣可以讓東沙環礁國家公園在推動生態旅遊方面可以做得更好。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "首先自我介紹，我是唐鳳政委的幕僚賴致翔，在會議開始之前，我先簡單針對會場的環境及會議紀錄的原則規則等等做個介紹。洗手間在會議室往右走之後左側，茶水在會議室後面可自取。大家可以看到在螢幕上有投影一個網頁，如果手機可以上網的話，可以直接拿出來，或者是剛好有帶平板或者是筆記型電腦都可以用。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "請搜尋sli.do，會進入網頁式的會議留言系統，輸入今天的會議代碼，代碼是01026，也就是今天前面的日期加一個「0」。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這樣做有什麼好處？如果當大家討論很熱烈的時候，但是有意見想要表達，可以透過這個網頁在上面留言，我們在今天的議程當中，主持團隊都會把各位的意見收進來。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，有關於會議紀錄的部分，今天在場有一位速錄師，會把各位拿著麥克風所講的話全部都記錄下來，全部記錄下來之後，在十個工作天之後，我們會在網路上公開今天會議所有的討論過程，但是大家不用太擔心，不小心講錯話或者是講話語氣不是很順，會有十個工作天的文字可以編修，但不要編修到別人的發言。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果不小心編修到別人的，可以跟我們說，這個逐字稿系統是我們辦公室寫的，每一個文字的更動，系統都會留下紀錄，請各位放心。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，在場攝影機會進行影像紀錄，影片並沒有要對外公開，主要是留存給行政院相關同仁瞭解，今天會議上討論的情況，如果在場有任何一位朋友對影片處理方式有其他建議的話，也可以當場提出。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，大家會關心怎麼還沒有看到唐鳳，唐鳳因為行程的關係，她大概11點30分左右會過來跟我們完成下午的議程，也跟大家一起來聽聽看今天會議最後討論的結論是什麼，同時也會把大家聽到的結論在下個禮拜的政務會議上直接跟院長以及其他政務同仁報告。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於會議的紀錄方式、流程，以及之後會後發生的狀況，不曉得與會先進有沒有任何不瞭解或者是想要指教的？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我今天就把麥克風交給接下來的主持團隊，主持團隊有兩位同仁，一位是張芳睿小姐，她原本是英國內閣辦公室的policy lab，協助我們在政策制定的過程中，能夠做得更清楚一點，另外一位是辦公室的研究員林雨蒼先生，他在討論的過程中會協助大家一起蒐集意見。如果各位沒有其他指教的話，我把麥克風交給張芳睿小姐。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "各位早安，今天與會者有來自非常多不同的單位、背景，所以在一開始的時候，我們會先讓各位作簡短的自我介紹。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家只要簡短就可以了，目的是為了讓大家瞭解今天與會的人總共有哪一些單位與背景，因此可以簡單說明您的姓名、匿稱、單位及與議題的關聯，主要是這一個參加議題的貢獻是什麼，我傳麥克風，簡短讓在場的人知道你的議題名字、單位及與議題的關聯。" }, { "speaker": "潘泰安", "speech": "我們是高雄遊艇公會潘泰安及蘇秀琴，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "大家好，我是臺灣遊艇公會理事長龔俊豪，還有嘉信遊艇的經理，我們在這邊主要是要推廣我們在臺灣有一艘船宿潛水的遊艇，也希望這一個遊艇可以打開生態旅遊的關鍵角色，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "大家好，我是高雄市政府海洋局長林英斌，今天我們的團隊也有來。東沙在行政區上是屬於高雄市旗津區，我們站在地方政府的立場是關心，希望東沙在未來，尤其是在遊憩觀光、生態觀光方面，大家可以提供意見讓大家一起討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "郭志強", "speech": "各位好，我是中華電信行動通訊分公司公務副總郭志強，今天中華電信代表有三位，還有一位是國際分公司處長一起參加，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "蘇思漢", "speech": "各位好，我是通傳會基礎設施事務處簡任技正蘇思漢，我們今天也有南區監理處的科長一起來參加這個會議，跟今天議題比較有關的是基礎設施通訊部分，等一下如果有需要，我們也可以一起討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "鄭錦州", "speech": "大家好，我是鄭錦州，是交通部航港局，今天來這邊主要是針對航政業務相關的部分，如果需要的話，將予以協助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉佳魁", "speech": "各位好，我是葉佳魁，是交通部民用航空局，我身邊的是本局吳富和科長，主要針對東沙若要用空中運輸的議題進行協助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "高偉珉", "speech": "各位與會代表大家好，我是空軍司令部重要軍事設施管制區的承辦人高偉珉少校，今天只是代表國防部來參加這一個會議。" }, { "speaker": "高偉珉", "speech": "會議本君主要是針對現在軍事設施管制社區有調整的必要性，配合這一次的會議來辦理，報告完畢。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "各位朋友大家早，我是海洋國家公園管理處的處長，負責東沙環礁國家公園的土地使用、建築管理及生態旅遊等相關事務，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "黃向文", "speech": "各位早，我是海洋保育署署長黃向文，前一段時間跟各位先進到東沙，這個是很美麗的地方，我們希望透過生態旅遊讓國人知道這個很美麗，但是在此同時，我們也希望降低任何人為的衝擊，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "蔡靜如", "speech": "各位大家好，我是海洋保育署的代表蔡靜如，東沙環礁國家公園，我想其實對大眾來說，是一個很神秘的地方，我想今天討論這一個議題非常有意義，未來如果要推動生態旅遊的話，我們在環境的保育上，我們要如何著手是我們單位的重點，今天也很榮幸來參加這一個會議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林群皓", "speech": "大家好，我是海委會海洋資源處科長，在我旁邊這一位是陳專員，我們發展海洋的產業，在海洋產業裡面海洋觀光遊憩這一個區塊是很被關注的面向，今天希望與會跟各位探討，在生態保育永續的前提之下，如何推動東沙環礁國家公園的海洋遊憩發展，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "許靜芝", "speech": "各位好，我是海巡署署長許靜芝，我們主要負責的項目是有關於東沙土地管理機關與另外整體安全與防護的執行機關，如果在這一個議題上有任何需要諮詢的部分，我們可以隨時提供協助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "大家好，我是黃佳琳，是自由撰稿人，是長期寫海洋報導跟生態旅遊報導的記者，不過大家不用擔心，今天純粹來提供長期在國內、國外，看他們觀光旅遊及實際在臺灣各地採訪潛水旅遊遇到當地的一些狀況、國外的一些學習，跟大家分享，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "主席、各位代表大家好，我是真理大學陳餘鋆，我長期有接受海管處的委託及合作，進行檸檬鮫及其他軟骨魚的研究，我昨天才剛從東沙回來，我有看到一條3米大的母鯊從我身邊游過來，有如我去年去印度太平洋會議去大溪地的時候，他們進行生態旅遊，也是用這樣的方式。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "我很期待在適當的環境評估之下，讓東沙環礁國家公園保育的成果，能夠呈現在國人面前，也讓神秘面紗，讓國際的人士能夠更加認識，這是我很期待的地方，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "各位好，我是中山大學宋克義，我們學校在科技部委託下，在東沙成立了國際海洋研究站，主要的目的是促進國際合作研究，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "大家好，我是臺灣澎湖南方四島保育協會理事長吳祖祥，因為我們協會關注澎湖南方四島國家公園，比較focus在這邊，東沙也是另外一個非常重要的國家公園，個人也有一些像南沙群島這些屬於馬來西亞管理的Layang Layang島的旅遊經驗，也可以把這一些經驗提供給海委會的學者及長官參考，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "大家好，我是臺灣生態學會的研究員，叫趙克堅。臺灣生態學會長期關心臺灣各地的山林，除了山林之外，海洋資源也是我們重要的一環，因此今天特別來參加這個會議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "大家好，我是李孟聰，我代表海龍王愛地球協會出席，本身也是在高雄科技大學海洋休閒管理系，對於NGO團體跟學界的角度來看東沙開放生態旅遊，應該是指日可待，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝各位自我介紹。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "用一些時間跟各位解說協作會議細部議程，還會跟大家說明一下這個細節的工具、目的。" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "主席、各位與會的貴賓大家早安，我是海委會的處長，今天非常高興有這個機會來參與這個協作會議，有關於這個部分有什麼問題，我們利用這個機會跟各位說明。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "各位與會先進大家早安，我是海委會綜規處處長，很高興提出這樣的議題邀請大家作充分地討論，海委會的成立即是統合海洋事務，今天非常謝謝各位與會代表來參加這一次的會議。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝各位自我介紹，今天來講解細部的議程，接下來會用10分鐘的時間來說明一下協作會議的流程、工具及目的，說明完畢之後會邀請主辦部會簡報，也會邀請其他與會者的簡報。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這樣子的設計是為了讓大家瞭解協作今天一整天的流程，以及可以幫助大家瞭解到我們的資訊有哪一些，也可以幫助大家針對我們之前有先寄出的議題手冊，不同利害關係人的想法有一些初步的瞭解，接下來如果各位針對已經呈現過的資訊想釐清的部分，又或者是想要補充的一些資訊跟大家分享，我們都會安排在10點30分至11點45分都有發言的機會來補充資訊，以及對焦還不清楚的事實，這樣就可以幫助我們早上有完整的資訊對齊及充分地討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果有更深入需要再想可能更完整一點的方案，又或者是有一些建議的部分，我們會留在下午。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這樣的安排是希望早上可以資訊對等，將資訊釐清都處理完畢，在用餐之後處理的時間都可以做更細部的發想，也可以把原本的方案或者是大家的建議都可以提出來，我們在下午收納。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "因為下午協作會讓大家分組，可以讓大家有更深入一點的交流與討論，因為分兩組，所以我們會需要讓大家知道這兩組分別產出的一些意見、方案、回饋等等的內容，所以最後會讓兩組派一個代表可以跟對方組分享這一組最後產出的總結，我們會在2點30分的時間結束今天的協作會議。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "會邀請大家一起協作，產出一些解決問題的共識。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們在蒐集意見時，如果非常多人有同樣的意見，我們會視為一個意見，幫助我們作歸納，如果兩個人有兩個不同的意見，我們會把意見收起來，意思是我們會尊重大家的多元性，而不是意見的聲量有多大，確保不同的人的聲音可以納入考量今天討論的議題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們今天主要的事有分三個階段，如同剛剛議程講到，我們會先做問題盤點，也就是先跟大家說一下議題背後的背景、目前盤點到的方向及方案，如果有問題的話，我們會在這一個階段蒐集，並做事實的確認及對焦，這個議題的歸納與定義已經寫在原本的議題手冊當中，也就是為什麼要開這個會議，背後的動機怎麼來的，因此問題的歸納、定義已經原本在議程設定時就已經處理過，在今天這一個部分會跟大家再作一次確認，現在是針對一些提出的方案可以給一些建議與回饋。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天整天的程序都會有完整的紀錄，後續會回歸部會繼續規劃。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天的會議不會作成政策裁示或命令，也不會指示或要求相關部會進行特定的政策規劃或具體執行，但是今天的紀錄都會完整紀錄，會讓後續部會做政策規劃參考，希望今天的溝通是雙向的，聽別人說也可以勇敢說出自己的想法，帶著不同的想法前來、不同的共識回去。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們今天有讓各位自我介紹各位的單位及背景，所以我們在之前盤點利害關係人時，我們希望可以邀請到比較多元、不同面向的人來參加今天的會議，所以這個是我們之前的盤點，希望比較多元的方向來組成今天的會議，也跟大家作一下說明。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "也跟各位說明一下今天會議會用什麼樣的概念執行，為什麼我們會希望把這麼多利害關係人組織在一起？是在政策推動之前，我們希望可以把各種不同利害關係人所在意的點、需求都可以在政策規劃初期納入，幫助我們在規劃後續服務、系統及政策法規時，可以有更多元的資訊幫助做後續的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "最後，有關於意見回饋時，比較不會產生像傳統的政策制定，可能在後續時，不同利害關係人才會知道這一件事，要改的話，中間的過程經過滿長的時間，因此會停滯，剛剛有提到今天邀請各種不同的利害關係人來，希望可以容納大家的意見，在政策規劃前期時就有聽到各位的聲音。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "剛剛有提到今天有三個不同的層次，對應到我們今天會進行的部分，我們會進入發散、收斂及再發散的過程，因此我們今天有很明確的議題要討論；接著，「箭頭往上」是發散的意思，我們會讓相關的利害關係人部會及簡報關於這一個議題的內容，簡報完之後會蒐集大家可能會有的問題及想要補充的事情，因此此為「發散」。但是在「發散」的過程中，我們會線上即時整理大家的意見，因此我們會同時做「發散」與「歸納」。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們蒐集到大家的意見之後，就可以帶到下午概念發展的部分，因此概念發展又是比較「發散」一點的過程來廣納大家的意見，我們今天做到這個階段，後續政策規劃會回到部會的部分，跟大家講一下今天的議程大概會從前面的菱形走到後面的菱形階段。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "也讓大家理解一下，我們在做問題盤點時，每一個人都有機會上來發言，我們會把大家的意見都即時紀錄下來，並跟各位確認，也讓大家一起定義問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家應該會覺得為什麼我對於這一個議題都有一定程度的瞭解，為什麼還要在這邊聽別人說又或者是還要補充？有一件很重要的事，大家對於這一個議題有高度熱忱且有專業知識的同仁，但是可能每一個人看的角度與面向不太一樣，因此今天其實很重要的事是，從各自角度看到面向的東西，也就是跟不同的人分享，讓這一些意見可以互相理解、交流與對焦。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們等一下會用心智圖的方式，雨蒼會來作介紹，並講解我們目前盤點到的議題跟內容大概有哪一些，大家的言論也都會直接媒合到相對應的脈絡，以幫助瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "下午的部分，我們會讓大家針對已經盤點到的問題、目前有的解法及概念是否可以再補充，另外是有關於可能的風險會發生在目前的解法或者是今天提出來的解法，我們會針對今天議題方法的細部討論與建議，將以小組方式進行。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來邀請海委會來簡報，幫助說明一下這個議題相關研議的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "各位與會先進、機關代表，大家早安、大家好，謹代表海委會針對東沙生態旅遊議題提出說明。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "立法院內政委員會第9屆第5會期，邀請海委會主委進行業務報告備詢時，當時兩位黃委員要求海委會協同各目的事業主管機關研議東沙群礁與南沙太平島的觀光，當時東沙島及周邊環境的海域，於96年已經公告成立「東沙環礁國家公園」，並由內政部營建署海洋國家公園管理處依國家公園法管理。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "依管理法的規範，國家公園設立的目的是為了保護整個國家特有的自然風景、野生物及史蹟，並且提供國民的育樂及研究的部分。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "依據行政院95年底核定東沙環礁國家公園計畫時，「建議應該優先辦理資源復育、監測與生態環境等工作，並訂定珊瑚礁存活率等相關復育措施之考核指標，等到指標顯示復育措施已達到一定成果後，再考慮推動後續之生態旅遊環境教育工作」。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "今(107)年6月5日，本會黃主委接受中央社專訪時，提出海洋、陽光、空氣與水都一樣都是公共財，既然是公共財，大家必須摒棄自己的私心，讓公共財發揮最大的效果，人類必須共同克服困難，才能共同生存，也希望帶動南海朝和諧、柔性的方向發展，並且規劃讓東、南沙駐守人員親屬登島探親，未來也將開放短期休閒觀光的部分。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "至於東沙島的基礎設計，有關於東沙電廠現在有4部500KW的發電機。在海水淡化部分，東沙淡化廠每天可以提供65噸供民生用水，海管處二次單元處理機每天可以產生30噸水供人員飲用、炊食用水。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "島上有東光醫院，現在有兩位醫官，透過IDS整合性醫療照護系統，由中央健康保險署委託國軍高雄總醫院輪流派遣主任級醫師、麻醉護士駐診；另外在島上也有郵政代辦所的設立；在住宿的部分，現在有職務官舍、交誼廳與漁民服務站。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "依行政院經濟建設委員會95年的函指出，由於東沙環礁國家公園已符合推動生態旅遊潛力與條件，委託辦理「東沙環礁國家公園生態旅遊規劃暨可行性評估」，國家公園生態旅遊規劃暨可行性評估」,期望建構不違反保育宗旨與環境承載量之生態旅遊機制。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "95年行政院核定東沙環礁國家公園計畫時，交議「建議應優先辦理資源復育、監測與生態研究等工作，並訂定珊瑚礁存活率等相關復育措施之考核指標，俟指標顯示復育措施已達到一定成果後，方考慮推動後續之生態旅遊環境教育工作。」所以96年東沙環礁公園成立以後，海管處請中山大學的陳陽益教授於95年研究東沙海域環境調查及規劃-水文、測站、內波觀測，及96年至97年間東沙環礁國家公園海域環境調查及測站評估，及97年東沙內環礁海域海流、水深與棲地調查。基於以上條件，海委會將持續與各部會進行相關研究與調查，以為永續東沙生態旅遊之環境監測推動之依據。" }, { "speaker": "沈建中", "speech": "東沙環礁群島珊瑚多樣性相當豐富，未來以友善低度開發的永續觀念，在兼顧環境、經濟、社會等三個領域的前提下，協助海洋公園管理處整體規劃，對外開放生態旅遊，使國民在親近海洋生態旅遊體驗中，進而深化保育意識。謹就海委會代表簡報，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝海委會處長的簡報，接下來歡迎海管處針對這一個議題的說明。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我想，因為我們都在這一個領域工作，可能大部分的人都已經去過東沙，可能有少部分的人還沒有去過，因此我簡要說明一下東沙環礁的大概位置。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "整個東沙環礁的面積大概是500平方公里，環礁的整個直徑是25公里，從這個圖面上來看，大致上上面的箭頭跟下面的箭頭，中間這一條線畫下來，右邊的部分是屬於「生態保護區」，左邊的部分是屬於「特別景觀區」。另外，沿著環礁外緣往外推12海哩所構成的範圍，就是整個「東沙環礁國家公園」的範圍，總面積約3,500平方公里，約略相當於台灣島面積的1/4。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "東沙島的位置在我們臺灣島的西南方大約450公里的海面上，這一個地區距離香港、汕頭的距離比臺灣來得近，所以，過去這一個地區常有大陸鐵殼船越界到這個海域進行捕撈，香港的遊艇也常會到這個地區進行潛水，這個是目前的狀況。我們如何因應國際潛水旅遊的需求，儘速發展這個地區的生態旅遊，行使我國的治理權，可以說也是我們今天討論東沙生態旅遊的另外一個背景因素。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "到底東沙有什麼樣的資源特色？還沒有去過的朋友可能不甚瞭解。我們先從海域來看，目前在這個地區已經記錄到的珊瑚大概有399種，魚類有741種，軟體動物有391種，棘皮動物有49種，從這些海域資源調查紀錄來看，本區海域資源可以說是非常豐富的。另外，這一個地區有全臺灣面積最大的海草床，覆蓋面積大約有9,000公頃，海草床的作用是海洋生物幼苗的哺育場所，本區海域最為人所熟知的就是檸檬鮫。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "在陸域的部分，雖然東沙島面積僅有179公頃，所有的植物都是經由海漂種子在這個地方落地生根生成的，但其實植物種類也很多。現在已紀錄到的植物有248種，蝶類、蛾類等昆蟲類有144種，鳥類有295種，這一些鳥類全部都是屬於候鳥，冬候鳥和夏候鳥都有，目前島上唯一看到的留鳥只有白腹秧雞一種。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "綜合來講，這個地區的珊瑚生長狀況很好，海洋生物的多樣性也很高，海底的景觀也非常地美麗，具有世界級珊瑚礁的景觀，可以是一個很適合發展海洋教育與生態旅遊的場所。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "以上是資源特色，接下來介紹一下目前島上的資源現況。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "以飛機來說，目前每週有一班民航機可以搭載70個人，主要的用途是讓島上的官兵及工作人員上、下島使用，其中每個月有一個班次會在島上停留三個鐘頭，其他的班次飛機則未有停留時間。目前一般的民眾沒有辦法透過航空公司購買機票前往東沙島。軍機一個月只有一班，停留的時間也非常短，大部分是提供給駐島官兵使用。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，海巡署在這一個地區有一些巡航任務所需要的艦艇，但是因為受限於吃水的深度，因此目前長駐艦艇僅為20噸級。另外，島上官兵及工作人員所需的食材、生活必需品及相關設施、設備零件，全部要靠運補船來運補，雖然運補船可以行駛到環礁的外圍，但是因為環礁內的水深比較淺，所以還是要再依靠平台船接駁至東沙島碼頭。現在運補最大量能是每航次可以運補17櫃，包含一些低溫冷藏的貨櫃在內。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "島上的主要交通工具是腳踏車，此外海巡的東沙指揮部於島上有兩輛中巴，可搭載人數大概將近40個人，但因受限於人力及油料有限，尚無法經常性每天提供遊客使用。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "此外，東沙機場剛剛提過有民航機、軍機，可以提供飛機起降。東沙海洋國際研究站，目前主要提供給國際與國內的研究人員使用，部份空檔時段可以提供給其他人員住宿，最多可以容納24個人。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我要跟各位報告，24個人不是有12間房間，而是因為有些房間是通鋪型的，一間預估可住6個人、8個人，容納量其實是有限的。另外還有一個是野生動物保育中心內有海洋生物的蓄養池，主要是做海洋生物救傷使用。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "此外，漁民服務站可以住28個人，所謂可以住28個人是指有一些房間是用一間8個人來計算，所以將來我們也要拜託高雄市政府海洋局，正好林局長也在場，能夠同意把這個地方交由海管處代管，本處明年度已編列一定預算可以來進行整修，將來可以提供給生態旅遊人員住宿使用，如果有空檔也可以給其他人員使用。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "此外，剛才海洋委員會沈處長已有介紹過，島上有東光醫院，還有發電廠，這裡我就不多提。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "這邊還有一個月牙軒，海巡署滿用心的，把歷年來整個東沙重要發展的過程文件都作整理，在這裡展示，其實對這個地方過去的發展，把它整理成這樣是非常有意義的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "此外，這一個地方也有設置光電板，目前的發電量大概是差不多41.6KWP，另外也有海水淡化廠，現在每天可以產生72.7噸，海管處明年度會再增設機組增加40噸造水量，東沙指揮部海淡廠也有海淡機組，只要再加裝逆滲透的滲透模，就可以使用，將來提供的淡水量足夠目前規劃上島的全部人員使用。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "剛剛所說明的是現有的設施，現在我們來看看這個地方的陸域有哪些資源。整個東沙島面積只有179公頃，剛剛提到過，所有的植物都是來自於海漂，少部分可能是候鳥排遺所留下來的種子長成。島上唯一的留鳥是剛剛所提過的白腹秧雞，其實白腹秧雞本身原來也是候鳥，久而久之馴化成留鳥。另外，像翻石鷸這種鳥類在遷徙的過程中是成群結隊，數量非常地可觀。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "像剛剛提到的月牙軒跟東沙大王廟都是島上屬於人文方面的資源，大王廟有很多故事，如果有機會的話再與各位朋友談談大王廟的故事。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，有關昆蟲生態方面，像寬腹螳螂也是很有特色的一種昆蟲。此外，像幻紫斑蝶過去曾經有一定的族群，現在找不到了，可能因為環境有改變造成的……（承辦單位催我快一點）。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "水域的部分，各位可以看一下這裡的特色物種，像珊瑚礁生態、費氏窄尾魟、尖齒檸檬鯊、凶狠圓軸蟹、倒立水母，這個地方值得一提的是，檸檬鮫其實是公告易危的動物，將來在這一個地區，海巡署希望能夠疏浚一條航道，對這一個地區的尖齒檸檬鮫的影響，海巡署正在進一步的評估。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "整個地方可發展有潛力遊憩的活動有哪一些呢？各位可以從圖上看到包含游泳、風浪板、工作假期、淨灘、獨木舟、立式滑槳、岸潛、浮潛等等種類非常多，在陸域的部分也可以有自行車的活動、動植物觀察、鳥類觀察、觀日出及夕陽等，這一個地區的夕陽是我這輩子看過最漂亮的夕陽，如果各位有機會去的話，千萬不要錯過。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我們接下來看看生態旅遊怎麼樣規劃的，大前提是我們希望在機能相容及符合生態承載量的前提下，使東沙成為一個兼具優質遊憩服務品質的永續生態島嶼，整個發展策略的部分，希望以低衝擊開發為原則，來改善島上現有的設施、提升島上的生活機能。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "在短期的部分，我們希望用生態體驗與工作假期模式來擴大服務人次、數量，為中、長程的發展作準備；短期部分設定為試辦期，大約是三年的時間。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "短期部分可以做哪一些事呢？將來我們會委託一個專業的機構負責生態旅遊的工作，參加活動人員可以參與種珊瑚、外來種移除、淨灘、環境教育體驗、觀星等等之類的活動，另外，像浮潛跟游泳、深潛也都是可以進行的活動。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "中程是希望由陸地往外擴展到水域，提供更多元的遊憩體驗，這裡面包含了潛水、水中攝影、船潛、搭船遨遊、淨海、獨木舟、立式滑槳等之類的各種體驗；此外，沙灘的部分可以是瑜珈這一類療癒的行程，據說很多人有興趣。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "在長程的部分，我們希望把整個東沙島推向優質遊憩與服務品質，創新海島景觀與永續發展的島嶼，可以發展的項目包含國際帆船、船宿潛水、玻璃船體驗、半潛艇及沙灘活動等，還有海上浮島，等於一個浮動碼頭，這個浮島的相關體驗，包含水下的腳踏車、水中漫步等之類的項目，以上這些是規劃中預想的項目。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "接下來我們來看看要推展生態旅遊時，可能會面臨哪些問題及如何改善？第一個面臨的問題是，必須要繼續按照行政院當時的指示，優先辦理資源復育、監測與生態研究的工作，事實上國家公園這麼多年來已經在這個部分做了一定的努力，這也是為什麼從民國96年成立東沙環礁國家公園，一直到今天十年過去了，我們才初步規劃東沙生態旅遊的主因。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "行政院要求先作復育，我們當時以珊瑚的覆蓋率作為生態復育的指標，106年底的調查資料，外環礁的部分，珊瑚覆蓋率平均達50％左右，最高的覆蓋率、最好的點已經超過80％。針對這一個部分，我們接下來要持續推動東沙成為海洋生態保育研究的重要基地，因為「生態旅遊」是生態排前面、旅遊排後面，基本上生態保育研究還是要優先辦理。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "怎麼推動呢？我們會先委託一個專業的廠商來辦理，這裡面必須要再訂定整個承載量的管制，生態旅遊的考核指標，要設置永久的監測區。另外，必須要妥適區隔生態保護的範圍、可以提供遊憩的範圍，這兩個必須要加以區分開；此外，剛剛提到這一些設施，其實很多量能現在是不足的，都必須要一項一項加以改善。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "很抱歉，因為時間的關係，沒有辦法講得很詳細。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "島上目前還有一些軍事設施，我們會建議將來把機場改為軍民共用機場，當然如果現在用包機的方式，短期間的問題是不存在的。軍事機密設施的部分，必須要加以區分出來，跟遊憩的範圍加以區隔。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，像水的部分剛剛有提過，與未來預定增加及改善的機組量、預估是足夠使用的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "電的資源目前勉強也可以，但是機組有些老舊，部分機組需要汰換。住宿的空間，初期一周三梯次、每梯次40位至45位登島，它的前提是必須把漁民服務站重新修繕，除了分擔部分住宿功能外，更希望將之營造成為東沙水域活動中心。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，將來長期營運期需要興建遊客服務設施，包含一個80間房間的旅館，而這一個旅館同時也會是島上官兵平時休閒娛樂的活動空間。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "吃飯、用餐的部分這也是一個問題，初期因為是40至45個人，初步規畫將來要協商海巡署，由參與生態旅遊的人付費，由海巡署供應；假設海巡署現有的人力無法應付上述需求，則考慮由受委託的專業機構增派人員共用廚房，提供餐食。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "長期（營運期）則規劃要在這一家旅館裡面另設廚房，供餐量能需要足以供應所有參與生態旅遊的人，甚至將來海巡署如果覺得不需要設廚房，也可以考慮由這一家專業機構統一供餐。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "污水處理的部分，目前已經規劃了污水處理廠，大概明年度就會動工，處理量能是每天135噸；廢棄物的清理，初期（試辦期）會先採用讓遊客每個人多背1公斤廢棄物回臺灣的方式處理，比較大宗或大型的廢棄物則在分類、分解打包之後，用運補船把它運回臺灣，營運期則會增設廢棄物處理設施因應。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "遊客登島空運部分，初期我們規畫每一周能夠有三個包機班次，由於目前是一班，所以等於是加開兩個班次，合計一周三個包機班次，海巡人員的休假就錯開成三個梯次。一班飛機是70個人，扣除生態旅遊人數40至45個人，等於之後每個梯次可分配官兵機位約25個人左右，三個梯次約75至80個人可以運用，不致受到影響。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "接下來，有關於駁船碼頭及忠義碼頭配合船舶進出及運補的需求，都需要做一定的整修。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "水域活動的部分，我們未來會進一步依照海域遊憩管理辦法的規定，訂定活動的範圍、項目、活動的行為規範，以及船舶停靠的各個相關規定，因此，將來到東沙環礁潛水的遊客就算不登島，也不是所有的區域都可以任意進入，而是須停泊在規劃的潛點範圍，至於有關道路的部分，也會作整體的規劃與改善。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，東沙目前還有一些自導式的解說設施等，這都會重新整體檢視。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "島上目前也還有一些比較危險的遺留物品，也會加以處理；此外，東沙島上還需要設置觀星設施、採購至少兩至三輛的電動車以及至少兩至四艘水上活動船舶，才有辦法供應將來生態旅遊的需求。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "整個推動時間表部分，我們把它規劃成兩期，短期部分屬於「試辦期」，長期部分則屬於「營運期」，「試辦期」預估為三年，利用這三年的時間，要把剛剛提到還沒有解決這一些問題，要逐一協調解決，到了營運期之後則預計採用OT方式，引入專業的機構進來經營，以維持這一個地方設施及遊客服務水準。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "以上報告，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝海管處的簡報，接下來請臺灣遊艇工業同業公會簡報。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "各位長官大家好，因為只有5分鐘，所以我儘量簡短說明。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我目前是擔任臺灣遊艇工業同業公會的理事長，今天主要跟大家報告如何以遊艇生態旅遊方式，其實剛剛海管處的長官也說了非常清楚，其實現在以最不增加任何設備就可以進去東沙的方式，其實我覺得只有遊艇一途，因為遊艇本身是自給自足的載具、工具，所以以現在不做任何改變的方式下，我們可以利用遊艇的方式來經營東沙，讓國人充分感受東沙環礁的生態與重要性。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "為何要經過潛水的活動？大家都知道水底下，為何要復育一些生態？其實主要是水底下的東西千變萬化，所以一直作改變的東西，讓國人去那邊，才不會很厭煩同樣的建築物與人為環境，其實大家聽過一次，不太會去，除了潛水活動，會一去再去，因為千變萬化，一直看到不同的東西，我們會希望潛水的原因是，看到每一次都是不一樣的東西，因此在東沙要發展生態觀光，我覺得潛水是一個非常好的方式。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "當然我們遊艇要去那邊，需要非常多機關的協助，像海管會、東沙指揮部、海洋局等等之類，都需要幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "本來我們有提一個專案給高雄市海洋局，我們預計會在月底，但要看海象的狀況來作調整及出發時間。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我們參與的人數因為要作試辦踩點的行為，希望遊艇的船宿潛水的方式是可以被接納可行的方案，因此我們儘量找有潛水教練、進階證照的人，包括能作一些攝影，讓大家知道這是非常可行的方案，船上因為自給自足，所以我們必須要有船長、廚師及船員。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我們的計畫有需要保險，我們由遊艇公會安排，報到的地點是在現在高雄市展覽館後面有一個嘉信20號的遊艇碼頭，我們會乘坐這一艘維多利亞76呎的遊艇，其實住宿跟吃喝拉撒，全部都是在維多利亞76呎的遊艇，這也是臺灣嘉信遊艇所製造的，其實臺灣在製造遊艇的記憶，大家都知道是全世界排名前4、5名，因此我們有能力去製造遊艇，當然到東沙來回其實也是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "大概介紹一下維多利亞這一艘遊艇裡面的一些基本資料，它是76呎、船寬是19呎、吃水1.46米，所以是非常適合在潛水域裡面泊靠或者是任何的水上活動，本身也有拿到監理單位所發的國際水域證照，本身有兩個引擎、兩個發電機，柴油量可以足夠容納到第一桶的柴油量，因為到東沙大概有240海哩，因此來回大概有500海哩左右。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "以這樣航行速度，我們足夠來回都沒有問題，再加上我們本身發電所需要的油量，因此以1萬來說是非常足夠的，在船上還有配備製水機及本身的水箱，所以我們的水都可以由海水淡化成淡水來自己使用。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "當然我們還有配備一些穩定翼的功能，讓船的傾斜度能到最小，因此在搭乘遊艇的時候是非常地舒適，上面也有潛水所需要的空壓機。另外，在安全的配備，我們有雷達GPS、AIS的衛星電話，包括我們配備在水底的3D，每一個影像探測器，所以在任何的水域，我們就知道水深跟下面的狀況，都會以3D的形象來顯現。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "這是我們所拿到中華民國遊艇證書，這是國際水域。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "大家介紹一下他的一些內容，我們從望台到主甲板到船艙，船艙是可以容納26位的乘客，望台的部分，大家可以看到我們有太陽浴的地方，也有可以做BBQ及休閒區。在主甲板，也就是所說的客廳與廚房部分，我們有非常大的廚房，裡面配備了我們在平常陸地上所使用的家電，任何煮飯的家電，其實冰箱、烤箱、微波爐都有。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我們也有放置餐點的餐點區及餐桌，我們的休息區就是所說的客廳，我們的遊艇叫做沙龍的休閒區，在潛水的時候，我們必須作簡報，因此也是簡報區，後甲板的地方是我們放船要潛水時裝備的地方。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "跳水板是下水區跟我們的淋浴區，在下艙的部分有五間房間、四套衛浴，因此可以提供住宿需求，而不用登島使用到東沙島本身的設備。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "這個是維多利亞76呎的實際照片，所以大家可以看到我們的廚房其實很大，我們的餐廳、客廳、望台及船艙。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "原則上是規劃5天4夜的行程，我們來回就要花掉一天的航程，因此我們在第一天的時候，我們從下午1點，從嘉信20號遊艇碼頭出發，上船以後，我們經過一天的航程，大概到下午1點會到達東沙島。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我們進去東沙島，希望長官們能對我們作一些東沙島的簡介、生態保育現況的介紹，到晚上要吃飯的時候，我們就回到船上來吃飯，希望也能在東沙島看星空的夜景，也希望長官能夠對我們做一些生態的解說。等到看完生態一些解說完之後，才回到維多利亞睡覺。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "第三天會有所謂的潛水行程，我們大概會潛兩天，到了第四天的最後一潛，我們就會啟航直接回到高雄去，經過一天的航程，在第五天的下午3點會回到高雄港。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我們看東沙評估報告裡面所節錄出來的東沙潛點，也希望東沙管理局可以核准這一些潛點。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "所以，假設要承辦這一次的活動，我們需要一些長官的協助，當然要同意我們的潛水地點，當然這一些點都是由評估報告所建議出來的潛點，當然也希望能利用東沙的碼頭讓我們來做夜間的泊靠。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "當然泊靠的時候，如果有需要一些費用，遊艇公會會支出，也希望權責單位可以提供我們所申請一些程序的方式或是申請書，或是任何書面的表格，我們都會依照程序跟時程來提出申請。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "報告到這裡，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝理事長的說明，接下來的說明可以針對剛剛簡報所提到的問題還有自己是不是本身有想要補充的資訊跟大家分享，都可以在接下來的時段跟大家說明。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "sli.do上有一個問題，也就是請問這一些簡報是不是可以公開？想詢問海委會長官及理事長這邊，請問是不是可以公開？理事長這邊可以、海委會可以，海管處這邊？" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "應該在這邊所公開討論的資訊，民眾都有權利知道，所以應該都要公開，因為是公部門的，如果涉及私部門的，像遊艇公會是他們自己的，當然可以考量，但是公部門一定公開，並不是公部門要不要公開的問題。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "海管處報告，部分資料屬於規劃過程的資料，尚未經上級主管機關最後核定，所以，如果要公開，建議必須註明是「草案」，以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們建議海管處在簡報上加註「草案」之後再辦理公開，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們請雨蒼幫忙，我們會開一個白板，請大家發問跟補充資料，我們會即時記錄上來並確認，並把大家的意見分類。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "像今天的議題有不同的脈絡，像有生態保育的部分，也有比如剛剛簡報中提到濫捕的部分，針對議題有很多不同的面向，接下來討論是有脈絡讓大家發言，我們先把各位的簡報，裡面所提到內容一些重點的脈絡部分都先作盤點，像文化面向、科學研究面向、生態面向及公共財後續怎麼樣利用的面向，我們有做初步的圖像盤點。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果大家要提意見的時候，是針對哪一個面向在提，我們的發言會比較都是同一個脈絡，討論完之後再討論另外一個脈絡，可以確保討論的進度是比較有效率的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "為了讓大家瞭解我們等一下會討論的脈絡，以及大家可以說針對這個脈絡的地方去補充，或者是針對脈絡的問題，因此會請雨蒼幫我們作10分鐘以內的說明，大家的意見就會直接媒合到這一張圖，確保剛剛所呈現的資訊及大家所討論的資訊都是媒合在同一個對焦點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家可以先看一下前面的部分，這個是在會前會跟各個部會盤點出來相關的議題脈絡，我這邊稍微簡要替大家帶一下便利貼及內容簡化的說明，如果大家討論的時候有相關的疑慮可以再補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "東沙島發展的面向是環境永續的價值，不管要怎麼樣發展，我們對於當地的環境都是第一優先的考慮，其實還有分成幾個不同的面向，第一個是文化保存，包含地上及海下的文化資產，可是現在最大的問題是，現在文化資產調查不足，有一些考古遺跡調查、海域水下有一些文化資產調查，目前來說文化部其實比較沒有辦法有這麼多的資源投入到這裡，因為現在還在處理臺灣西岸跟澎湖的部分，所以短期內預算不足，比較難以先在這邊確認。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有人會擔心生態旅遊對水下資產造成衝擊，目前短時間內規劃是儘量不要靠近當地水下資產，海管處這邊已經用A、VR的360度的環景攝影來拍攝水下資產，大家有興趣的話，可以去看看。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一個重要的面向是科學研究，因為當地的珊瑚跟生態系其實極具科學研究價值，目前已經在東沙成立研究站，目前也邀請先進國家來舉辦海洋生物科學的研討會，一樣的問題，東沙島離本島比較遠、設備比較簡陋，相對於科研工作會受到拘束。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於生態面是許多人比較關心的，在海委會的簡報裡面提到海洋是公共財，應該開放大家使用。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "生態面的部分，當地面臨最大的問題是其他國家違法捕撈，當地其實是有非常豐富的水下資源，覆蓋率已經達到50％以上，當地的復育有成，但一些違法捕撈可能會對當地的生態造成很大的影響。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "一個解法是增加海巡能量，這個部分包含陳老師建議要在當地宣告禁採珊瑚，以漁業法來作管制；提升東沙島上拘留漁民的議題與軟體設施，以免海巡抓到人以後，還要後送到高雄，非常不便利。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著海巡署還沒有擬訂子法的相關配套，可能要在這裡加強漁業管理、海巡教育執法來強化相關的數字、能量；另外，海巡也許考量要增加夜航設施，以及在港口的部分需要加強。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，他們很久以前是希望高雄市政府可以劃設部分物種的禁漁區，但因為國家公園本身是禁止捕撈，因此後來成立國家公園本身就有類似的效益。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著，希望爭取南海周邊的國家支持，因此目前已經透過科研計畫來增加國際能見度。為了阻止違法捕撈，其實在會前訪談很多人都有提到，如果當地有很多的遊客前往旅遊，如果有相關的業者，也是在那個地方從事一些生態旅遊的話，其實大家都會一起來阻止違法捕撈，如果有人在那邊的話，違法捕撈也不會這麼囂張，所以這個地方有很多人會建議規劃生態旅遊可以是一個強化當地設備、避免當地違法捕撈的方案。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果規劃起來就會發現遊憩承載量可能是不足的，因此這一個地方可能包含現有航空、輪船等交通網與基礎設施都要來作強化。剛剛海管處簡報的這一頁先放在這裡了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "生態旅遊如何不破壞環境，可能要進行環境承載量的總量管制，還有環境規劃。在遊戲承載量基礎設施強化的部分，我們可以看到右邊的部分。海管處已經報很多，我簡單說一下，這邊是交通，包含空運的部分，機場目前是目視起降，應該要討論如何強化。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "海運目前其實忠義碼頭是運補，但是因為當地是環礁，珊瑚礁滿多的，所以大船沒有辦法停靠，通常都是要靠小船接駁才可以過去，所以目前有一些想要建設可以停泊100噸級的碼頭計畫正在規劃中，而這個計畫其實是如果有100噸級的碼頭，就可以停到大的海巡艦艇，對於打擊當地的濫捕其實是有相當大的幫助。當然建設的過程中有一些方式要來保障當地，避免碼頭破壞當地的生態，後面有一個部分包含步道系統的改善。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於水資源的部分，淡化設施可能需要擴充。用電的發電機有兩個機組，其實是比較老舊的，常常會有故障發生，這個需要更新；飲食的部分是需要餐廳擴充；而住宿方面剛剛海管處的報告其實有提到，未來規劃希望可以建設遊客中心來容納更多的人；污水處理設施的部分，如果有要開放生態旅遊，就要有一定程度的加強。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "廢棄物的清理，未來還是要做強化與規劃，避免當地生態旅遊遊客所留下的垃圾而導致生態旅遊的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是水域及船艇的活動，看起來是大家比較關心的部分，其實國家公園裡面沒有經過許可，是禁止游泳及潛水，如果經過許可的話，可以作環境教育或潛水的浮潛活動，只是水域活動都需要東沙管理站，如果發生了緊急狀況，海巡署可以提供救援，還有東光醫院有一些醫療能量，但可能不太足夠，可能需要委託民間辦理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "再來，有關於機敏據點的地方，當地其實有一些設施，也許需要好好規劃，避免遊客到時接近。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是解說能量也要作強化，海岸的景觀目前還是有一些蛇籠危險的廢棄物需要作處理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前潛水浮潛相關的據點跟設施，其實也還沒有良好的規劃，當地有一個通訊的問題，目前當地的通訊頻寬是不足的，可能需要做一定程度電信設施的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "剛才其實在報告中可以看到大家有一些可能不一樣的認知，目前海管處認為船運如果過去旅遊的話，是以不登島為原則，但是船宿旅遊業者希望可以提供夜間泊靠的狀況，或者是希望可以登島作一些旅遊，也願意支付相關的費用，這個是我們剛才新收到的，也放在這邊跟大家作一個提示，我的解說大概到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這一份的連結已經上傳到sli.do上，所以大家可以用手機或平板電腦都可以點開來看到現在的即時紀錄，現在的時間會交給雨蒼，現在這一份基本上就是從剛才這幾份簡報的重點脈絡拉出來，大家可以直接針對簡報有沒有不清楚的地方，或者是想要新增自己的觀點，我們都歡迎大家在這一個階段可以發言在sli.do上說明或者是可以直接現場舉手。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "聽到經理有規劃到東沙內環開船，我們在東沙開船已經開了五年，所以有一些經驗，如果有恰當的衛星照片，可以看得出來，雖然平常大概有10幾公尺，但大概有幾千個快礁，以前都認為非常危險，因為的確是會觸礁。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "事實上我們在五年前內政部地政司方域科，用光達——雷達是用電磁波，光達是用雷射光——所以對東沙整個潟湖的水深是非常清楚的，我們有做了一個可以放在筆電、iPad的任何pad當中。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "唯一的問題是公務機密，所以我們每個人用的人簽了的話，洩漏就要點點點的文獻，但那個對安全非常地有效，包含海巡署的小船，現在出海都跟我們借iPad。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "我的意思是那對行船安全在非常特殊的水域來說是不可或缺的，因此這可能是我們要在那邊發展水域觀光的利器，全世界的環礁通通沒有這個，因此怎麼不觸礁，就是開以前的航機，現在因為有內政部做的光達圖，看了那個圖，我們開了窗戶說那邊有礁就有礁，也就是說非常安全，如果不利用……" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "可是另外一方面，我相信列為機密也是有其考量，別人要來登錄的時候，也可以看那個就曉得怎麼樣不觸礁、怎麼樣得到折衷，可能在開放觀光時可以注意的。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "另外一個大家比較清楚的是，事實上東沙的觀光季可能非常有限，尤其是水上，以我們的船來說，下個禮拜上架以後就要等明年了，我們的船比較小，大概只有44呎，70幾呎的可能可以稍微長一點，我們規劃了這一些東西，水上活動的部分，季節性大概只有每一年5月到9月、10月，其他都是另外一個世界，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "可不可以請宋老師幫忙補充一下，東沙觀光非常有限的原因是什麼？5月至9月可以觀光，另外一個時間是另外一個世界，另外一個世界是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "海軍有一個氣象站，風速非常明顯，5月至9月改變從西南風變成颱風的影響，因為我們出海都有紀錄，看到了11、12月的時候基本上都變成0，一個月有出海天，在5月的時候，基本上我們的船長說會被操到死，因為每一天變成每個地方都到得了。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "另外一點是規劃的船點，反過來講，因為受到風的影響很大，所以總有一邊是比較好的，東北季風的時候，南邊比較好，西南季風的時候，北邊比較好，所以我們停船都在換位置，在夏天的時候港口不敢停，要換到另外一個臨時的碼頭。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "所以我剛剛看船的吃水是1.5公尺是還好，還有很多地方是可以停的，不過船長在東沙開船的時候，如果沒有光達的圖，大概受限會很大。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前已經有行船安全的光達資料，但是這個是機密資料，這個看大家怎麼討論，是能夠開放利用或者是不行，也許需要事後來規劃，這個有5至9月觀光，因為有東北季風的影響，西南風比較有機會出海，也因為風的關係，所以根據台北季風或者是西南季風的不同的風，當地的位置可能會有一些改變，去的地方也有一些調整。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有沒有要其他的意見表達？" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "剛宋老師提供的意見是比較大範圍的意見，我可以提供一些根據我們這幾年包括內環跟外環的資料，其實冬天9月開始以後就會有東北季風，也就是持續會受影響，但是以內環來說，在南面方面其實是非常平靜的，所以可以考慮東北季風來的時候是在內環快礁來進行船潛的方式比較適合。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "東北季風來的時候，事實上南邊還是在靠近礁台附近大概20米內相對平靜，因此在冬季的時候比較有效利用南邊的區跟內環的區，也就是把環境評估先拿掉的情況之下要進行旅遊的方式。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "西南季風來的時候，北邊會更好一點，相對的，內環還算是不錯的點。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "其實我想要再次提供一些個人的分享，海管處也有提供一些遊憩規劃的觀念，其實也在為墾管處做一些規劃的時候，必須要強調慢慢有分區的觀念，雖然我們希望進行的是無動力活動的規劃，但是希望一個活動是一個區域，不要每一個活動都重疊，會有遊戲活動衝突的問題，也會加重環境的承載量。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "因此，在劃設一般區跟遊憩區的時候，應該要謹慎規劃一定的區域，無動力的活動應該傾向於這一個部分進行，對環境的影響會更大。我相信這樣的評估方式，其實剛剛有提到不管是大溪地或者是帛琉或者是馬來西亞西巴丹都有類似的方式。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "像長灘島重新開放，也是因為之前遊戲承載量過島，造成整個封島半年，因此漸漸開始開放，開放之後基本上很多的活動都已經限制，所以分區、分時及緩衝區的觀念及無動力活動的限制，應該要謹慎評估，而且要針對氣候變化的改變，不同的區域、不同的季節來作細部的評估，我相信對未來的永續經營會更好，以上。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以老師您的意思是東北季風來的時候，內環是相對平靜的，所以可以考慮內環停船，並不是東北季風來了就一定不能去。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "再來，因為活動會影響環境，當然這個地方建議海管處在未來規劃生態旅遊單位，要有活動分區、分時的觀念，以免活動衝突而造成一些問題。之前長灘島沒有分區、分時，導致承載量過大，後來停了半年，等了生態復育以後重新評估，有一些活動就禁止大家再參與，是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "海管處要分享一下目前的規劃是不是有考慮到這一些點？是不是要說明？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "剛剛我簡報的時候就有提到，有關於水域遊憩活動管理辦法的規定，我們必須要劃定各個不同活動的範圍、不同活動的項目，每一個活動的範圍、行為及規範，還有船舶在那一個地方停靠、錨錠等等的規定，像每一個活動項目、範圍及總量，如果可以的話，我們都希望能夠把它加進去。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝海管處的說明。還有沒有人對於我們整理的東西有疑慮？" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "各位朋友大家好，我是吳祖祥。因為我有很多的潛水經驗，包含也有船宿的經驗，也去到一些國外的海洋國家公園，如果對於一個地方生態影響最小的，當然就會像我們龔理事長所講的，用船宿的方式，所有的人都住在船上，自給自足，不會用到島上的設施、電、水，甚至是食物，最後垃圾都帶走，這是最理想的。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "我剛才看了海管處的簡報，不管短期、中期或長程，這一些水域、遊憩預計規劃的活動，其實規劃的項目很多，但是這一些活動是不是會吸引人家來到東沙，東沙現在對國人來講是比較神秘的地方、沒有去過的地方。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "我剛剛看的內容是，我在想比較吸引一般人的地方是文化參訪，就是看看東沙，因為沒有去過。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "其他像看珊瑚、浮潛或者是動植物觀察或者是游泳及潛水，另外還有三天兩夜等等，其實這一些在離島的島嶼活動做得到，而且也都有在做，最吸引人的地方是潛水，另外一個是去到島上，登島看看這個島上的人文生態。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "目前還沒有一些長期的建設，我剛剛有提到，像馬來西亞在南沙群島在1993年就開始建設渡假村Layang Layang，專門只做潛水，島上也有海軍的軍事基地。當初設立海軍基地是佔據島礁，最早是只有0.1平方公里，大概是1000平方公尺，後來擴建機場擴建到整個機場是差不多0.35平方公里。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "接下來在1994年建設了一個渡假村，每年只經營高端的潛水遊客，其他就是軍方的設施，而這一個模式如果長遠的計畫，當然那是需要建設的，但是建設一定會有破壞，要去建設這一些設施絕對會有破壞，這也是政府考慮要不要做到這樣的程度。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "另外以目前的態勢，個人覺得以最不干擾生態環境方式，是可以開放船宿潛水，目前臺灣由嘉信遊艇公司做出來，而且已經開始營運，但是這個地方也可以著眼吸引全世界的船宿潛水船，其實船宿潛水船是比較高端的觀光旅遊市場，因為東沙關涉到軍事安全的部分，因為距離香港很近。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "我們建議這個地方有能量，可以一次開放五條到十條的船宿潛水船並同時營運，我建議這一些船是必須要到高雄港來接這一些潛水客，希望把東沙這一個地方放到國際旅遊上的潛水客人，他們飛到高雄來，登船再到東沙，比較不會有入出境的問題。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "我個人建議影響最小，對生態破壞最小，而且這個高端旅遊，像這一些潛水旅遊會比一般人更注重生態，對生態影響會最小，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前不太確定東沙島這個地方是不是可以吸引一般的遊客，看起來您會覺得也許初期島上的文化或者是海下的潛水可能會比較吸引大家，考慮可以參考國外有一個彈丸礁，還是有一個海軍基地，但是同時也有潛水渡假村，可以考慮用這一種方式營運。目前建議可以用船宿為主的方式來作處理，畢竟潛水為主的渡假村，還是可能會帶來一些破壞，這是您的說法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著是遊客出入境的問題，其實我們的手冊裡面有提到，國外如果要上島會有問題，但是目前島上沒有單位，所以不太能處理，所以建議必須要飛到高雄才能到東沙。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "今天這個地方大家非常關心船宿旅遊的相關規劃，目前有沒有單位可以對船宿旅遊的規劃來稍微說一下進展到什麼地方？是還在評估或者是有一些初步方案，目前船宿旅遊有什麼限制？是不是有單位可以對這一件事稍微說明？" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "我補充一下是船宿潛水，而不是船宿旅遊。如果只是船宿，可能有一些是遊艇的遊客，遊艇的遊客去到那邊，希望是上岸，情況是不一樣的，指的是住宿在船上的潛水旅遊方式，也就是船宿潛水。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "先跟您致歉，我沒有非常熟悉，如果使用錯誤請馬上更正。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有人對船宿的部分，臺灣的方式可以再說明嗎？包含中央或者是地方有研究或者是評估嗎？高雄市政府，請。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "高雄市政府這邊謝謝幾位老師，站在高雄市政府的立場，我們也很支持遊艇公會，先試航一下到東沙去坐船宿潛水。剛剛理事長簡報，如果以遊艇去的話，因為船宿的問題，大概要坐24個小時的船才能到東沙，如果目的不是為了潛水，而是為了觀光，我想大概不會有人花24小時，然後坐到東沙轉一圈又回來，這個沒有吸引力，一定要有目標，就像剛剛老師所講的。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "去那邊的目標就是潛水，而東沙其實是一個非常好的潛水點，從這個地方來發展，我想這個部分應該是非常好的，因為其實臺灣遊艇的製造能量跟製造工藝及知名度在全世界都非常高，如果用遊艇去帶的話，其實對臺灣整個遊艇產業的部分是有很大的幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "我們這一次希望有一個建議，其實剛剛主持人一直在提，我們現在想要試辦，到底是要經過什麼樣的程序，因為剛剛宋老師有提到，現在是10月底，我們的冬天是11月中旬以後，也就是12月以後是東北季風，去到那邊停船沒有問題，但是水域潛水的狀況，其實東北季風大了，相對潛水是不適當；如果可以的話，今天有很多政府中央相關機關來，是不是可以用這個案子來做專案試試看？" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "如果可以的話，我們在11月上旬、中旬之前，能夠讓一趟成形，我想會更有信心船宿潛水的商業操作模式，也就是能夠成形，站在高雄市政府的立場來建議看看，是不是在專案許可的狀況下，是不是可以在10月上旬或者是中旬時可以成形，我想這個是很好的試辦點，在座大家都贊成這個是適用的方式。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "我順便報告另外一點，剛剛處長在做簡報時，提到漁民服務站的部分，好像國防部也有來找高雄市政府使用的，今天早上正在國防部開會，這個部分未來真的在海管處有計畫的話，我們看兩邊要如何協調，這部分也有邀請海管處參加，我們有跟處長報告這一件事，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我先作一個澄清，我們協作會議不會下決策的，並不會今天結束之後就決定要試辦，但我們會希望能夠儘量蒐集，假設要試辦或者是相關的東西，政府有哪一些東西是還不知道的，我們需要瞭解的，請大家幫忙想一下或者是找一下有什麼資料可以幫助政府來作決定。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實我知道高雄市政府其實已經有對遊艇相關的東西來作配套的政策規劃，你們要不要分享一下目前有關於潛水或者是遊艇旅遊的規劃碼頭或者是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "高雄現在有兩個民營的遊艇碼頭，如果我們北部來的夥伴，等一下可以看看嘉信22號碼頭，龔理事長我想也很樂意讓大家去參觀一下。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "其實我們遊艇碼頭的設施跟遊艇管理的服務部分，其實現在目前在運作上已經非常上軌道了，尤其嘉信這邊又有一條專用的潛水，也就是維多利亞76呎。一般的遊艇其實在船上因為空間的配置，能夠上船的人並不多，一個遊艇76呎，應該是三至四個房間，如果真正要在上面過夜，正常的人大概只有十幾個人，但因為這條維多利亞是專門for潛水，所以有26個床位可以讓26個人在船上過夜，相關的設施龔理事長報告了。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "因為是潛水專用船，所以潛水必須要補充設備，比如加氣或者是相關的設備，其實在船上都有，所以在船的部分我們已經有了，碼頭的部分當然是沒有問題的，也就是在碼頭的部分是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "林英斌", "speech": "接下來，我們剛剛一直提到的是，這個走了之後才讓潛水的愛好者知道有這個點，然後能夠試航看看，我剛剛一直提的是，當然我們知道今天的會沒有辦法做決策，因此拜託與會的各單位能夠再提供並幫忙，因為11月中旬不能成型，要試航就是明年4、5月以後，就有空窗擺在那邊，因此我建議各部會是不是可以幫忙，讓他可以試試看、走看看。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝高雄市政府這麼努力在push這一件事。是不是請海管處回應一下目前的狀況？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "今天國防部在開會沒有錯，我今天本來沒有要提，既然提出來了，其實我們跟國防部間已經有談好一定的共識，那個部分是暫時使用，後半段就不提了，有其他的思考。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "暫時使用結束之後六個月的時間會遷出來，我們再進去整修，這個是第一個部分的回應。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二，剛剛龔理事長有提到，我是按照這個簡報內容來看，我們也樂觀其成，但是有一定的程序需要處理。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第一點提到的是時間問題，簡報中希望是10月底，這個時間不太可能，因為進入的地區包含國家公園的生態保護區及特別景觀區。依現行國家公園法規定，國家公園的生態保護區並無提供生態旅遊機制，簡報中提出的潛點至少有3個點疑似在生態保護區，必須修正計畫才能符合規定；國家公園的特別景觀區雖可依規申請，但申請時需提出預定辦理環境教育計畫經本處核准之後才可以進去。此外，到登東沙島依照目前的規定，需先向國防部提出申請、查核，而這個時間好像是45天，以這個時間來算，就算國防部這邊可以專案處理，也會非常趕，因此這個時間點可能要再洽商。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二點提到的參與人員當中有國內外專家，我不曉得國外的專家有幾位，如果有的話，除非在高雄先完成入境程序，不然在這一個地區應該不會被許可。心智圖提到要從高雄入境，其實不應當是謹謹是高雄，在台北可以入境，也可以在桃園入境，坐高鐵到高雄，理論上不用指定高雄。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第三個問題是船速約10節，算起來單程是要24小時，來回是48個鐘頭，五天四夜的其中兩天其實是在船上。如果生態旅遊活動項目以潛水為主，也許能夠接受，但是如果將來要發展包含一般國人的生態旅遊，這部分恐怕你們要再多計算一下成本與效益間的關係。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "最後提到的是地點，依簡報規劃之潛點，現在分為高級、中級及初級，因為圖上沒有詳細的座標，這樣看起來高級潛點的第一個位置，以及中級的第一潛點及第二潛點，看起來應該是在生態保護區，僅能供學術、調查研究使用，禁止一般的水域活動，連環境教育都不在許可之列，因此這三個潛點，無法同意貴會前往，相關計畫恐怕也必須要做適當的調整；但是這三個點剛好在邊緣附近，我想這個是有調整的空間。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，簡報中提到船艇不下錨，我們非常贊成。至於同意停泊碼頭的部分，目前這一個碼頭由海巡署在管理，也要請海巡署表達意見，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "海巡署要對這一個碼頭表達一些意見嗎？或者是等一下？雖然大家都一直討論船宿旅遊，如果今天是保育的人，可能會擔心船宿旅遊會不會傷害到當地的生態，我不知道這個問題有沒有人可以幫忙回答，或者是表達一下自己的觀點，又或者是怎麼樣的船宿潛水是好的，怎麼樣的船宿潛水會造成當地的傷害，如果要船宿潛水怎麼樣才不會傷害。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "船宿潛水的經驗，我比較多。我去過馬爾地夫、泰國，都是在他們的國家公園，還有印尼的科莫多群島、厄瓜多的加拉巴戈群島等等，限制最嚴格的是加拉巴戈群島，當地船宿旅遊的生態，對於潛客要求的等級很高，一般去到那邊，第一個會先作環境教育，讓大家對這個環境很熟悉。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "像加拉巴戈群島，一般的旅遊客根本是不開放的，只開放船宿潛水的旅遊，船宿潛水去到那邊相較於其他的旅遊方式，對其他的遊客來講，潛水的人員是最少干擾的，還有船也不會用到當地的設施，所以個人的經驗，去過幾個國家的國家公園，大部分都是以海洋國家公園，都是以船宿潛水的方式為主，比較少住在島上的生態。" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "像馬來西亞西巴丹的潛水島嶼，最初在島上也是有一個渡假村，在十幾年前也把渡假村廢除掉，剩下少數的駐軍在上面，每一天要進到這個島的範圍內來潛水，有名額限制，重點也是要經過一些管理措施，然後限制人數，總是不能沒有名額限制，這樣人數太多，去到這個地方，多多少少還是會造成破壞，總量管制還是很重要，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝補充，所以這個地方遊客要做環境教育，一般不能不開放一般遊客，而是開放船宿潛水的遊客，對人的品質有把關，對人的數量也有把關，以避免對當地的環境造成衝擊。有人要補充嗎？" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "不好意思，我是海龍王愛地球協會，補充吳老師所說的。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "其實國外很多地方潛水的地方，除了總量管制以外還有收費，尤其是國家公園的地方，他們進去都會收生態稅，甚至船舶進去也會看噸數的大小來限制，很多地方就做船潛的部分，如果距離比較長就必須做船宿潛水的動作，就是用跳島的方式，像紅海就有八天七夜（行程）。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "像剛剛吳老師所提的西巴丹每一天限120個人，有做總量管制，而且有做一個動作，並不是只有那個地方，他們甚至會做珊瑚礁的定時體檢，發現珊瑚礁的狀況不佳時就會採取封閉，所以每天開放並不一定每一天真的會開放，其他島上會等名額開放。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "協會這邊也有可以引入公民科學家的力量來協助作珊瑚礁定時體檢的動作，因為一方面在潛水、一方面也可以監控珊瑚礁目前的狀況怎麼樣，這樣會更即時。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "引入公民科學家，這部分大概怎樣？有沒有比較具體的？" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "做珊瑚礁的體檢其實也要經過訓練，其實愛好潛水，說實在的，在做所有水域活動裡面，潛水是生態保育概念最好的，他們這些都很願意做這一個部分，做珊瑚礁體檢的時候，他的技術要怎麼做、該怎麼調查，經過適當的訓練就可以協助做這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "同時在潛水的時候，因為很多潛水的人都會做水下攝影的動作，因此會即時產生當地珊瑚礁的狀況怎麼樣，其實就會回報，讓管理部門知道目前珊瑚礁的狀況怎麼樣，也可以做說是不是要逐步關閉或者是縮小名額，又或者是做什麼樣的措施。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝分享，這個部分有沒有人想要……宋老師先。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "給各位一個比喻，一般從岸邊潛水，就像從東沙島游出去潛水，範圍多大？大概是公里的尺度。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "如果是在東沙環礁，500平方公里的水深，通通都是在潛水的範圍內，所以一旦是用船潛水的時候，分散到500平方公里。500平方公里有多大？台北市是273平方公里，也就是除以分母的時候，遊客都找不到人，所以分區也變得比較簡單，因為很大。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "另外，我們大家還沒有提到的是，這邊範圍這麼大，潛水是否安全？我舉一個例子，像在美國的科學家要潛水，要參加大學聯盟，他們到東沙來評估，而評估的項目，從船上氧氣的供應量到岸上的設施，這邊看到兩件事，一個是海巡、另外一個是東光醫院，他說這兩個分數就已經遠遠超過所有其他的項目了，我的意思是，我們自己都沒有看到一些優勢。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "我舉一個例子，像海巡跟我們的船經常都是經驗有限，因此經常需要海巡的協助，包括從潛攤拉到比較深的水，因此在海上的活動來說，事實上提供相當多的安全保障，當然東光醫院更是，一旦出了一些問題時，是一個很重要的後勤，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝老師的補充，當地其實有海巡署，當然當地的緊急救難，其實海巡署可以做很多的幫忙。像東光醫院如果沒有記錯的話，裡面還有手術室可以作一些簡單的手術，因此這個安全保障是非常不夠的，這個是很不錯的保障。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外老師也分享，誠如一開始海管會所分享的，這個是非常大的地方，其實比台北市都還要大，人在那個地方，分區不會太難做，再者，遊客其實是散得比較多，也不會像墾丁人山人海有很大的衝擊。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "大家好，這一本是我幫臺灣觀光局香港辦事處大概寫了一半的內容，也就是臺灣哪一些潛點的介紹，這個是海管處自己出，也就是陳老師調查檸檬鮫的資訊。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "在臺灣現行的海域裡面，我們要能夠輕易看到鯊魚的這一件事是已經不可能的，東沙是目前可能在臺灣海域當中，還比較能夠有機會看到很易危的物種，這表示東沙在發展所謂的潛水旅遊上，一定可以吸引到不管是國內或是國外的國際觀光客，要不然現在也不會有香港客貿然跑去。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "回歸到一點，因為我長期在採訪觀光旅遊，從一開始我相信觀光旅遊、生態旅遊是一件對於環境好的事，到現在我對這一件事打上問號，因為有人就會有破壞，生態旅遊雖然是希望基於在生態保育的立場上去推廣這樣的旅遊方式，可是如果在推廣的所有規劃人員之類沒有明確或者是管理的人不知道這一個東西如何進行，其實是會有非常大的風險，會讓環境很快被玩壞。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "包括像船宿的部分，像菲律賓的Tubbataha，他們也都是用船宿潛水的方式。像澳洲大堡礁，他們透過的方式是會用航線或者是船數去管制到底有多少人可以進去，東沙這邊會有船宿、島上遊客及島上工作人員相關的，因此全部會進到這個領域的，應該都要算這個環境裡面可以承載多少人。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "像Tubbataha會有封閉期，每一年只開幾個月，進來的遊客、船，大概幾年會評估到底核發哪一些船有權進入這一個領域，還有到底每一年要繳多少的錢，當然可能在處長這邊，規劃了非常多的活動，如果需要吸引廠商進來，一定要有利可圖才有辦法進來，我們也不可能要求廠商做功德，這個是不可能的事，但是應該要基於是遊客量少，而價高，大家一定會有興趣想要進來。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "當然海洋是觀光財，必須對大眾開放，但是相對環境也很容易受到破壞，因此才需要非常嚴謹的管理方式，包括收費，像船會收費、進來的遊客也會收費，你一落地就要繳100元美金，各種活動都要繳多少美金，所以有專款專用，如果沒有專款專用到國庫去，還是沒有辦法對東沙環境有所保護。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "在船宿的部分，在船宿潛水是滿適合的，但是包括船長訓練、島潛的訓練，都是在推廣之前就應該要有相關的……我們不知道哪一些人對那個熟悉，如果要推廣這一方面的話，政府應該要有相關的培訓或者是什麼之類的。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "另外，在島上的部分，可能會有一些大眾旅遊不是潛水的遊客，可能希望來到東沙瞭解，因為這個可能是一般人都無法抵達的地方，可能對於一般大眾來說真的很難以接受。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "如何在最低限度的考量下要推觀光規劃，這個要再想，島上有生態環境與研究站，國外一些所謂渡假村，可能會跟研究配合，包含剛剛處長所講到珊瑚的觀測或者是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "有一些是他們可能會協助做復育珊瑚，可以依照這一個島有特殊的生態旅遊方式，像墾丁國家公園也有推廣生態旅遊，也已經十年了，他們在做人員培訓上的導覽員也都會比較嚴謹的方式，因此其實在這一些細節上，當然我們現在不討論細節，只是可能在規劃上就要想清楚，不然所有的規劃放進去，但是人員的培訓或什麼沒有到位，那個是很可怕的事。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "基本上這一個地方要能夠有永續經營管理，基本上可以看得出來不是針對所有大眾都可以來，而是一個非常小眾的地方，在小眾的時候，我們就會決定這一個島嶼生態旅遊會走向什麼方向，這個可能是在規劃的時候要瞭解的。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "馬來西亞西巴丹有提到島上渡假村為什麼要遷出，我們有採訪島上的一些業者，他們說有渡假村，他們說有人就會有破壞，因此就會有污水，像現在東沙也有一些垃圾或老鼠之類的問題，所以那時西巴丹開放潛水的時候，他們還住在島上，但是因為污水的排水能見度變差，後來他們就全部被迫遷出，移到周邊的島嶼，現在只能靠船去那邊旅遊。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "另外，可能範圍太大，點沒有辦法知道，我不太確定東沙的環境是否適合，初期先列十個或者是二十個潛水點，是適合船宿，就是綁浮球，也可以避免船嚇跑，也可以知道我們在這一些點是適合潛水的。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "另外，真的有人就會破壞，像馬爾地夫雖然是一島一飯店的特色，但是馬爾地夫現在有非常大量的問題，他們現在進來的遊客就要有非常完整的生態旅遊觀念，不然只是想要來獵奇的觀光客，或者是想要到東沙，其實你可以看到現在馬爾地夫有非常嚴重的垃圾問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝黃小姐的分享，其實包含各國的經驗，包含為什麼西巴丹島廢村，是因為廢水處理不當，要提醒處理好，要向遊客收取費用來專款專用，東沙島要依據特色，也許相關的生態旅遊要一定程度跟研究站合作，來協助做環境保育。如果可以的話，直接規劃潛水點，下面直接綁浮球，直接用浮球來這個地方讓大家潛水。當然如果要做得好的話，這個價格要提高，要讓它成為非常小眾的人過來，並不是獵奇的人都過來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "但是如果價格太高，這樣真的可以吸引遊客嗎？成本要做一定程度的衡量；如果要規劃永續經營，就是不會開放給一般的道路，這是我們目前收到的意見，我們都紀錄上來了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "右邊有一些sli.do上的問題，我稍微唸一下：" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "1.島上現有的停泊設施及胃納量為何？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "2.小潟湖可否規劃錨點、作為環境衝擊，小的停泊方案跟靜穩定的停泊水域，不一定需要太大規模的碼頭設施。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "3.接著海巡要配合足夠數量的激動性高、吃水淺且尺寸始終的巡防艇作為國家防衛的後盾。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這一塊我覺得並不是只是做海洋國家的防衛後盾，我們上網搜尋一下，其實東沙島這個地方非常多的新聞是關於濫捕的問題，也請海巡署針對濫捕問題有沒有什麼好的處理方式，如果鐵殼船一撈，珊瑚都沒有了，其實生態旅遊也不用規劃了，大家過去都是看到挖掉的珊瑚，這也可能是大家關心的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接著，如何規劃設置進入航道附近的助航標以避開危險礁石，沒有辦法公開或者是什麼樣的狀況，有沒有什麼一定程度可以避開危險的礁石。東沙島的腹地是不是可以容納這麼多的硬體服務設施及基本的人力要求，也就是這個島的大小其實沒有非常大，這麼多的硬體服務設施及基本人力，是不是真的可以放到這個島上？未來經營是不是又要委外？東沙島生態環境衝擊一定有更謹慎的評估，以不增加當地的環境負荷為最大的利基考量。以及建議東沙島可以持續島嶼發展上，可以優先考慮下面的東西，像水資源利用朝向循環再利用的方式規劃，減少一次性的包裝、減少民生物資的東西，增加島嶼的有機土壤與堆肥，以提高島嶼生產力，規劃能源供應綠色化、在地化的設備節能。減少非必要的人員進島，以降低環境負荷，以及對於現有的廢棄物及未來海漂廢棄物與再利用的方式進行處理。這個是趙老師的建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是不是要海管處稍微回應一下這邊的問題，可能要回應的包含島上小潟湖錨點的規劃；再者，有關於礁石的部分是不是有辦法處理？要麻煩海委會及海管處。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "東沙島腹地評估的部分，還有環境衝擊評估，請海管處稍微說明一下目前就你們所知道的狀況。還有東沙島海管處目前的規劃，請海管處幫忙回應一下。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "首先對於小潟湖船支的問題必須要說明，以往停泊是停泊一些小型的竹筏的機動船，而且是停滯的，基本上是沒有開動的。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "未來停泊不管是海型船或者是大型的船艦，又或者是小型的船，因為一定要轉彎，進去轉彎一定會把沙子都弄起來，事實上可能會造成這裡面生態很大的影響。據我目前的調查，東沙島潟湖口全世界唯一僅有的海草床是可以讓檸檬鯊及軟骨魚可以棲息的。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "每年4月3公尺左右的檸檬母鯊回到潟湖來生小鯊魚，這個是全世界唯一的紀錄。同時用空拍，潟湖口的地方，我們可以一次看到其他的魟魚，現在改名叫做鴨嘴燕紅，可以一次20幾隻同時出現在潟湖口，這個是很優質給這一些小鯊魚、魟魚可以覓食的棲地，不管是清運或者是碼頭也好，我們不曉得，這樣的結果勢必會造成很大的衝擊，這個是未來很重要的亮點。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "為什麼？因為在大溪地做生態旅遊，物種包括檸檬鯊、費氏窄尾魟、古鯊等，完全跟大溪地的生態旅遊物種是完全一致的，所以為什麼要跑去大溪地看一回，跟他們真的是很像，他們都是環礁，而且生態旅遊帶來的效益非常高，環境的建議其實也經營得很好，我們覺得可以好好思考這樣的棲地是不是要透過清運的過程而造成很大的衝擊。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "你可以看到小潟湖，基本上流通並不是很好，所以一旦有船支進來以後，我們知道任何港口都一樣，只要有船舶停留，甚至是水上的摩托車停留，都會有保養的機油或者是相關的重油，勢必會造成很大的影響，這個是我們要懇請上級單位再思考清淤動作的效果，要謹慎評估，以避免造成很大的衝擊，未來這一些母鯊因為這樣的衝擊而不會再回來，我不知道會不會像白海豚會轉彎，但是目前為止是一個很重要的棲地。" }, { "speaker": "陳餘鋆", "speech": "我們目前看到小潟湖的南端，有進行調查，我們挖到2公尺的大鯊魚，這樣的養成鯊也是棲息在這附近，如果未來要進行生態旅遊，就是在潟湖口這邊就可以看到，甚至海草床，就會跑到你旁邊，因為這一些鯊魚都是很友善，甚至還有一點害羞，因此事實上進行生態，在這一個區域其實是很好的亮點。如果未來要清淤或者是建港等等會有很大的衝擊，我在這邊提出一些我的分享看法，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "您提到小潟湖都是非常多生物棲息的地方，如果有船進港或者怎麼樣，可能會有一些重油流出來，或者是對當地生態進行一些擾動，或者是把底下的泥沙捲起來，這個是造成亮點很大的衝擊，我們先收起來這個意見。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "補充老師的說法，全世界只有在這個地方可以看到檸檬鯊，如果我們玩SUP或者是帆船，我們幹麻去東沙島玩這一些鬼東西……不是鬼東西，而是玩這一些遊憩活動，當全世界只有這個地方看到檸檬鮫的時候，全世界的人會不會為了檸檬鮫而來？不可能，所以在這上面的對話，可以再更加考量。" }, { "speaker": "黃佳琳", "speech": "在臺灣其他的潛點上要非常容易看到鯊魚或者魟魚很難，如果臺灣要洗刷在海洋上的污名，也許東沙是一個機會。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "檸檬鯊這個是全世界可以看到的地方……" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "不好意思，這不是全世界唯一看得到的地方，並不是唯一可以看到，但是要去大溪地，就是要去一些離島，也就是要到馬達加斯加的塞席爾，塞席爾是歐洲人渡假的一個地方，但是在整個東南亞海域，檸檬鮫可以說是滅絕狀態，IUCN說是受脅物種，但是實際上在東南亞海域是屬於瀕臨絕種的狀態，但海管處竟然在這個地方把這個地方保育這麼好，起碼有600隻以上的檸檬鮫，經過我們族群評估，每一年大概可以生將近200隻的小鯊魚，所以在這一段季節規劃的時候，可以看到成群的小鯊沿著東沙島洄游。" }, { "speaker": "宋克義", "speech": "甚至在外環的時候，像3公尺的母鯊就跟在旁邊慢慢遊，前幾天才進行這樣的動作，所以可以看到不只檸檬鮫，還有其他的物種，像費氏窄尾魟，你可以上網去查旅遊，跟魟魚一起遊玩的遊客，那個就是費氏窄尾魟，跟東沙完全一模一樣。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝補充。我覺得一個很好的建議，我們是不是要拿海草床跟檸檬鯊來作中華民國生態旅遊的規劃，或者是可以成為亮點，全世界可以看到在海洋保育上有一定的工作。請海洋保育署。" }, { "speaker": "黃向文", "speech": "剛剛海管處有很多問題，所以給他們一點時間回應。" }, { "speaker": "黃向文", "speech": "因為海保署有負責海廢的業務，因此聽到「垃圾」二字就很緊張，特別是像澎湖是很美麗的地方，因為遊客很多，所以垃圾很多。" }, { "speaker": "黃向文", "speech": "喜歡爬山的人應該聽過「無痕山林」的概念，我們希望可以把無痕海洋引進來，我們進到這個地方的時候，可以享受美景，但不要帶來任何的垃圾。之前看到阿根廷的冰川國家公園，面積非常大片、而且容納非常多人，但人數是有管制的，以前經過搭車、搭船進去，然後告訴你進去的時候，把所有的垃圾袋走，當地也沒有提供任何的餐飲設備，就讓自己帶，自己帶東西過去吃，吃完之後垃圾都帶走，這是儘量降低垃圾方法，因為當地其實有很多海漂垃圾，我不希望遊客再帶進去。" }, { "speaker": "黃向文", "speech": "其實專業的導遊很重要，外行看不懂，你需要一些專業的生態解說導覽，因此是不是有比較認證跟導覽進去，我們一方面可以確保旅遊的品質，二方面是不會增加額外的垃圾，因此下一次跟鯊魚專家去，收獲應該會非常豐富。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "您剛剛提到有非常多的海漂垃圾是指東沙島嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃向文", "speech": "我們去過的幾乎所有島嶼都有垃圾，是海上來的，島上產生是另外一塊。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，問題有一點多。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "問題多表示海管處的努力還不夠。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "海漂垃圾隨著季節風、海流而來，源頭不斷，海漂垃圾就不會斷。東沙的海漂垃圾主要是來自大陸及越南，我們非常感謝海巡署的東沙指揮部，配合我們的東沙管理站每兩個月就會辦理淨灘活動，每一次清出來的垃圾裝滿太空包的數量，都將運補船塞的滿滿的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "國人過去參與生態旅遊的機會比較少，有一部分的人會花很多的錢去國外，去參加各種不同的潛點，每一個人花這麼多錢到國外去，除了新鮮感之外，其實到那個地方去都有目的的，每一個國外的景點，來自世界各國的潛水客要看什麼，除了整個珊瑚群聚、魚群群聚之外，也想要看到大魚、大海龜。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "在我國的國家公園裡面，墾丁現在看不到大魚了，澎湖南方四島有幾個點有大魚，但請恕我不便公布。另外，東沙有沒有？東沙也有大魚，但是也須等時機成熟後才能公布，目前最大的賣點就是大家知道的檸檬鮫。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我要跟陳老師報告，除了剛剛講的，還有一點我們值得很欣慰的，就是昨天有某一位國內知名的老師告訴我說，在東沙不僅在東沙島周圍看得到檸檬鮫，在外環礁也發現不少檸檬鮫的蹤跡，這是在過去比較少發現的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "我為什麼要提這一段？既然要發展生態旅遊，就是要把眾人注目的亮點留著，但是現在令本處天人交戰的是，海巡署希望疏浚東沙航道，以便讓較大型鑑艇能夠進來。因為現在越南或者是大陸的鐵殼船，進來的多是200、300噸的船隻，以目前海巡在現場的巡邏船艦，其實沒有辦法對付大陸的這些鐵殼船，也沒有辦法登船，難度、危險度極高。在這樣的狀況下，讓我們陷入天人交戰的是我們要不要國家海防安全？要不要任由大陸漁船在這個地方橫行？如果我們要阻止大陸漁船橫行，我們就必須要有相對應的工具與設備，才有辦法去防止大陸漁船的入侵。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "各位可能都知道，大陸漁船用的是底拖網，底拖網拉過去的過程，其實就等同草地上遭坦克車開過去一樣，那個是徹底粉碎性的破壞，在這樣的狀況之下，我們才會陷入天人交戰，究竟是要保留潟湖口這邊這麼優秀的亮點，或者是做某種程度的犧牲，讓將來海巡100噸級的船，可以進到這個潟湖裡面來。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "這個案子並不是今天討論的重點，我們先不談這個案子將來成立與否，我們姑且假設這個案子會通過，則將來在東沙島的內潟湖裡面會有一個碼頭，這個碼頭到底容納量是不是能夠讓生態旅遊的船舶進來，還需要進一步瞭解，因為現在的設計圖還沒有出來，我們不確定到底能容納多少的船舶。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "但是，我認為問題是可以解決的，只是航道的寬度是否足夠須再確認，因為海巡署已想盡辦法不要影響這個地區的生態環境，所以疏濬航道的深度只有4至6公尺，寬度也只有十幾公尺，迴船池也只設定了直徑60公尺，位來希望能容納生態旅遊德船艇。我相信海巡已經用最大的努力、使用最小的空間來換取將來可能可以執法的機會，因此這個案子我想將來國家公園計畫委員會會進一步審議，在此我們就不討論。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，剛剛有提到是不是可以規劃設置進入航道附近的航標，這部分我想大家可以努力，剛剛宋老師也提到有一些已經航行過的航跡，過去走是安全的，如果依據航跡設置航標，這個應該是可以討論的議題。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "此外，東沙的腹地是不是為容納這麼多的活動而設置許多的硬體設施？我想這個問題可能有些誤會，其實沒有那麼多的人及硬體加入，目前規劃只新增遊客中心、污水處理場跟廢棄物清理場，原則上目前的規劃只有這三項設施屬於新增設施，這三項設施也是發展生態旅遊及維持東沙島海域生態環境所必要的設施。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "另外，人的部分即使是在營運期，一天最多也只有70個人，因為是三天兩夜行程，第一天來的旅客就搭第三天來的回頭包機離開，所以將會是維持最多140個人，並沒有各位所想像的很多人。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "140個人如果分散到海域去的話，以這個地區範圍大概有3,500平方公里的角度來看，其實看不出對這個地區有太大的影響才對。未來的經營是否要委外？我想當然，以海管處的編制人力、專業不太可能做到的全面的維運與服務，所以必須委託專業機構維運經營。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "還有哪裡需要提一下？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "水資源利用，增加島嶼有機土壤、堆肥……" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "那個部分不用回應。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為已經到12點了，先收一下建議。我想先請一下海委會是不是可以幫忙回覆關於礁石……不好意思，是關於海洋活動的保育後盾及打擊當地濫捕的問題？是不是可以請海委會或海巡署幫忙回應一下有什麼規劃？" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "簡單回應幾點，剛剛各位先進有提到船宿旅遊，這個會牽涉到海巡署能量的部分，大家都知道東沙本身是1.74平方公里，整個東沙環礁海域面積是5,000平方公里，海管處洪處長也提到這個比例懸殊，因此需要設置可以開放及不適合開放的地區。" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "剛剛海管處洪處長也有提到，可能未來要依照所謂水上遊憩管理辦法，法源就是發展觀光條例，其實水上的遊憩業都有這些規定，如果未來要推動這個政策，這跟產業有關，如果政策可行，可能要回歸行業管理的概念，希望船宿業者亦要提供足夠的安全設備，萬一有海難發生才能及時應處，目前的機制是都有SOP，也就是在突發狀況發生時，第一時間如何處理。" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "第二，因為海巡署在那邊的能量其實是有限的，我們的任務其實是多元的，剛剛有提到國家安全的問題，也就是相關的海域，尤其是大陸船舶的取締問題，因此我們在那邊不僅負責救難，更有多元的任務，因此能量是有限的。海管處洪處長有提到為何在潟湖那邊有疏浚的構想，主要是希望提供更大型船舶泊靠，這個也是我們未來要提醒的一環，我們也會朝這方面積極規劃。" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "在規劃的過程中，我們也會考量到部分學者提到生態環境怎麼共生、共存的問題，潟湖或是整個環礁海域如何保育，如何取捨是個問題，我們希望能夠做到雙贏，這部分特別感謝海管處積極跟學者溝通，希望未來的方向是雙贏的結果。我們會朝這方面來努力，希望未來在這一塊能夠兼顧國家安全、生態旅遊及產業發展，甚至發展到藍色產業經濟，也希望未來取得雙贏、三贏或是共贏的策略，未來會積極規劃，簡單回應這幾點，以上。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為時間差不多快到了，遊艇跟趙老師都有提到相關的意見，因此在想說這樣的意見是不是ok的？剛剛的回應是ok的嗎？或者是希望下午補充再說明？" }, { "speaker": "潘泰安", "speech": "從實務面來說，就一個使用者的角度來看，未來船要到那邊，最關心的是有沒有好的停泊環境，不管未來在那邊有硬體的碼頭，或者是尋找靜穩度過高的水域做錨球，這樣對於環境的衝擊是最小的，這兩個方案應該要找方式，不管是大的船或者是小的船到那個地方，終究是要尋求一個可以停泊的地方，不然後續人員晚上要休息或者是做其他的捕撈動作，這一些都沒有辦法做。" }, { "speaker": "潘泰安", "speech": "毛球可能是在短期內比較好的措施，但是可能要規劃在適當或靜穩度夠高的水域，不需要在小潟湖裡面，也許依據季節的不同，可以設公設毛球的做法，以後可以考量。以上建議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "靜穩度夠高是什麼意思？" }, { "speaker": "潘泰安", "speech": "不要有浪。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "趙老師有要補充嗎？不好意思，先請龔理事長一次補充完。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我補充幾點，其實國防部審查45天，我覺得可能太忙了，沒有辦法縮短審查的時間之可行性，因為之前我們遊艇出海的時候，可能是一個月之前要提出申請，現在已經縮短到我們拿著海巡表馬上就可以出海，所以這一種效率，我覺得是可以改善的，因為45天的審查期，再加上其他各部會的審查等兩個月以上，絕對是超過的，所以也不用限制遊客，其實觀光審查程序也不可能太多人去，這是我們真的要做商業性行為，我覺得最大的限制因素是在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "另外錨球，像做船宿潛水的時候，也沒有任何的碼頭，是以浮球的方式來限定這是可以潛水的地方、休息的地方，當然上面沒有什麼建設，但我們去到那邊，我們就乖乖在那邊，沒有任何的硬體建設，但是大家都會遵守有限的資源，這個是非常珍貴。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "我們要下水的時候，其實都有跟我們說不能碰觸任何的珊瑚礁，能去潛水的潛客有一定的標準，並不是隨便去那邊破壞，而且我們也非常珍惜這一種的可貴性。因此在船宿潛水，我覺得對生態保育上，我覺得不太會去破壞，而且是比較可行的生態旅遊的方式。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "另外，我們的船是以經濟航速在跑，所以是以十級的效率去跑，是最省油的方式來回，就是讓油量足夠，讓高雄跟東沙來回，如果能夠開放民間業者在那邊有船宿潛水或是任何的商業行為，其實也減少了海巡的負擔，我們其實是可以去舉報這是大陸、香港的船。" }, { "speaker": "龔俊豪", "speech": "其實海巡不用每一天在那邊繞，其實我們會告訴海巡說有大陸漁工來，他們其實再出動就好了，我們去斯米蘭或者是其他的船宿潛水，也沒有每一天在那邊巡，因此可以減少那一些出航的任務能量，因為我們本身就會想要保護這個地方，假如有人要來干擾，我們就是如何防止，我們算是志工，在南方四島就做得非常好，有志工在巡，因此在海巡或者是一些執法機關，其實他們相對輕鬆，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常謝謝，該怎麼規劃讓海巡跟業者互相配合，嚇阻當地的濫捕行為。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "剛剛處長所提的140人，我不知道140人是整個東沙環礁公園，包括海域所要限制的人數，因為我剛剛所提的是島上的，其實陸域的島上生態系統是非常脆弱的，尤其是東沙島，我們可以看到在《大崩壞》(Jared Mason Diamond)裡面寫到復活節島，一旦崩解要再回來是非常地難。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "陸蟹專家劉烘昌博士分析了多個太平洋島、印度洋及大西洋的島嶼，他發現太平洋島嶼的陸蟹族群數量比較少，他初步判斷的原因是，太平洋島嶼早期根據人群遷徙時順帶引入老鼠後，導致陸蟹族群數量受到影響。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "東沙目前而言，像現在的季節來講，其實還有一定的數量的陸蟹。但在發展觀光下去之後，是不是會對這個生態系統造成衝擊？現在大家都會把焦點放在海域上，剛剛宋老師也講了海域總共有500平方公里，這一些人跟船下去而分散開來，其實相對衝擊是相對比較少，除非有人偷排機油或亂丟垃圾以外……" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "我感謝海管處讓我有機會登島，我發現島上非常使用大量的保特瓶，明明可以用水壺裝水，但是我發現很少在用飲水機，80個人每一天可以喝幾瓶保特瓶的礦泉水，我覺得從現在開始可以從國防部，也就是禁止在運輸這一些小型的保特瓶的水，而是改大裝的水進去，因為島上都有飲水機。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "軍方或者是海巡署對於義務役都有配置水壺，為什麼他們不用呢？島上的民人也都一樣，這一些都可以預期下去的，像剛剛潟湖口的垃圾場都還沒有清運完畢。是否僅因為保育有成，所以我們可以依照國家公園法第幾條準備開放生態旅遊，但是保育有成跟生態旅遊是兩回事。也不能忽略開放後對在地生態系統的衝擊。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "島上有沒有做好足夠要面臨每一天要接80個人或者是140個人，而140個人如何處理？相關的規範都沒有看到。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "再加上剛剛看到海管處的草案，我特別註明一下是草案，真的是嚇死人，要把那個地方變成第二個墾丁嗎？這一些沒有看到很完整，未來如何規劃東沙島，變成一個島嶼，現在全世界都在講可持續，現在怎麼可持續？萬一對島嶼生態產生了破壞？又無法達到當初預期開放的效益怎麼辦？綠島當初是管制區，開放觀光旅遊後遊客數逐年上升!但到了35萬/年最高峰的遊客數，現在下降到每一年不足30萬。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "但是島嶼的生態已經破壞了，要再回來不容易了，綠島是比較大的，但是東沙島是比較小的，海管處目前將保育工作做得非常好，何彷從小型環境教育開始做起，然後用環境教育去帶領生態旅遊，這樣不是很好嗎？不是一下子就要大規模的開放。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "當然，剛剛所提到很多的開放措施，可以列入第一階段的優先考量，帶什麼東西來就帶什麼東西回去，只要做好監控措施就可以了，實在很害怕大規模又要建一個80人的旅館，我真的很害怕80人的旅館要建在哪裡、怎麼下去弄，現在135個人在島上都可以找到人。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "現在的自行車是不是又要規劃自行車道？到了潟湖口之後是不是要變成一個橋來做環島的措施？這都是一連串的衝擊。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "雖然美其名是以生態為考量，但到最後生態還是在旅遊的時候被犧牲了，尤其是委外之後，廠商一定是將本求利，沒有廠商要來做功德，你都不願意做功德了，廠商如何願意做功德？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝趙老師的發言。一個問題是，國防部45天的審核期有沒有可能減少？" }, { "speaker": "高偉珉", "speech": "45天確實是規定，是不是可以縮短？我們這邊要再陳報給長官來指導。" }, { "speaker": "高偉珉", "speech": "細部的程序，我這邊也不太瞭解，因為我不是承辦人。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解，謝謝。就我所知，目前海管處其實已經有比較完整的生態旅遊研究，是不是海管處可以稍微說明一下生態旅遊的規劃spec是怎麼樣，其實有一些東西並不是現在就有，有一些是很後面才會考慮要不要建的。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "如果某種程度生態旅遊會不會造成當地自然環境的破壞？我想任何人為活動，對於當地的自然環境都會有相當程度的影響，這個是無可避免的，但是要看總量如何，我不曉得趙老師看到哪一份資料，會認為將來東沙按照海管處的規劃會有很多新的設施及破壞。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "事實上我們的規劃，在試辦期中，一個禮拜大概只有120個人上島，將來進入營運期，一天最多也是70個人上島，因為三天兩夜，第一天到的旅客將會搭第三天的回頭包機離開，所以島上江維持每天140個旅客，按照生態旅遊的做法會區分為不同的小隊，70個人大概會分成四、五組來進行活動。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "以目前島上179公頃加上海域來看，規劃報告分析了設施的承載力、自然的承載力及社會承載力。因為過去没有上島遊客資料、尚無法做社會承載力，如單純以自然承載力及設施承載力來看的話，規劃報告的研判認為影響層面應當是小的，而且我們所做的生態旅遊必須有專業的導覽人員帶領，理論上會被破壞的機會並不是那麼大。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "又因為只有100多個人，也不會有所謂興建自行車道之類的，有關盡可能不要影響周邊環境生態的行為這個環節，我們會儘全力去注意。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "第二個部分提到保特瓶的部分，因為目前海水淡化造水量已足供需求，故本處已不再使用，基本上我們運補上去的東西，已經不包括飲用水。" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "減少保特瓶瓶裝水的使用也是本處和島上相關單位共同的目標，未來將加強「自行攜帶水杯」上島的宣導，甚至直接要求應自行攜帶，並且停止供應瓶裝水。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊稍微說明一下，海管處已經有做一些規劃研究了，而這個規劃研究之後會公開給大家看嗎？" }, { "speaker": "洪啟源", "speech": "所有的研究、規劃報告定案核定之後都會公布在本處官方網站。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "剛接的時候，有找到98年更早的規劃，確實寫著飲用水是靠運補到東沙島，他們是說海水淡化設施還不能飲用，但是新的資料是目前的淡化廠已經淡化出可以飲用的水，這一些是資訊落差的部分，有新的資訊可以請海管處儘量公開在網路上。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "時間交給主持人芳睿。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝早上熱烈討論，中午的時候會把大家討論的東西彙整一下，其實我們早上已經有開始進入一些方案的提出，原本是下午會進行的議程，因此我們等一下也會歸納有哪一些是還沒有討論到的方案。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "早上在一開始的時間，比較多的部分是針對水域上的建議，陸域生態旅遊的部分是比較後面才開始帶到，有一些旅遊是重疊的，中午會整理一下，下午看怎麼樣去進行方案的回饋跟心得方案的發想，看怎麼樣會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們繼續在大場把各位分成兩組會有更深度的討論，早上的時間有一點延後，基本上從現在算半個小時的時間，1點的時間會回來這邊，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們接下來進行下午分組的規劃，如果是同一個單位的同仁，麻煩幫我們平均分配到兩組，所以等一下我們會有第一組的分組，然後第二組會在右前方的這個地方，等一下麻煩同機關的同仁幫我們討論一下怎麼樣分配同樣性質，又或者是團體差不多性質的人會幫我們分成兩組，確保兩組都有多元的聲音來作討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家可以看到之前寄出的議題手冊，還有早上心智圖的最上面，也就是討論議題的脈絡，大概是分成開放生態旅遊的動機在此：" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一個重點是，我們要如何讓更多民眾瞭解當地生態保育的重要，所以我們早上在討論不管是路上或者是生態旅遊的方案，其實都是在回應這個地方，怎麼樣透過這樣的機制或者是方案，對於大家生態保育的重視及更深入的瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第二個重點是濫捕的問題，最後一個部分是有關於我國能見度的部分，大家會比較針對於前面這兩者討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "另外，由於上午針對遊艇相關的討論，內容比較細節，但是其實針對生態旅遊的方案，也不是只有遊艇的部分，因此希望大家在下午的時候，也可以針對不同方案有更多的回饋。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們下午會由小組帶領從核心的旅遊動機去檢視現在已經產出或者是大家建議的方案，有哪一些是真的可以回應到什麼動機，並不只是為了麻煩一些沒有回應動機的需求或者是期待，這個是我們希望檢視的，也希望大家針對這一些方案有更多細節的討論與建議，我們會在討論的過程中，把這一些建議都記錄下來。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "針對這一個階段有沒有問題？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果沒有問題的話，請各位同仁進行分組，這邊是第一組，後面是第二組，接下來的期間就交給小組長帶領。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "兩組下午討論的部分都進行得差不多，我們就歡迎第一組先來說明，如果等一下同組有想要補充，或者是想要其他同仁對於等一下這一組的說明有問題的話，都歡迎在說明、分享完之後提出來。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們歡迎第一組代表。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "剛剛有討論到如何強化生態教育的發展，解決方案又有提出來，像型態上的話有很多，比如船宿潛水、保育的理由模式，還有提到露營星空觀測，甚至有到島上的大王廟進香，符合社會型的生態，生態分成兩大部分，一個是人文生態、一個是自然生態，所以這應該也可以說是，但是沒有傳統的歷史，人類的習慣是按照傳統。這一些可能會遇到很多問題，當然有船宿上的管理，申請的時間過長，像剛剛國防部45天，生態容易遭受到破壞，災害時是不是島上有辦法容納這一些人進去。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "有一些解決的方案，主要針對活動方面來講，建議海管處將來在做統一發包規範，把它納入管理條例，管理條例很健全時，這一些活動就比較容易獲得確保，嚴格管理也不一定能夠獲得大家都去遵從。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "另外一個模式是，這個其實是我個人剛剛沒有講出來的，像剛剛有提到山林的問題、海域的問題，這一些根源是教育國民義務教育都沒有把如何跟山相處、如何跟海相處，這一點其實是非常重要的，就很像一個人在山上活了幾十幾天下來，大家就認為很不可思議，而忘了我們有一群長期以來就生活在高山上的原住民同胞，為何不能向其請益!將他們對山的傳統知識普及到各界去。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "除了零星的規範以外，從我們自己的教育，不管是社會教育或者是國民義務教育下去著手會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "趙克堅", "speech": "權責單位有海管處、國防部及海委會，大概是這一些單位，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "請問同一組的部分有沒有想要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有沒有其他的問題？" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "剛剛老師太專注在說明生態旅遊部分，忘記說明濫捕的部分，在嚴格取締的部份早上分享的時候，有提到如果有潛水客看到濫捕情形時，可協助檢舉，因討論時間關係，在這個建議沒有進行特別的討論，想到的是可能會有海巡量能問題，本則建議與海巡署相關，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝雨潔補充，還有沒有同組的同仁想要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就歡迎第二組。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "我代表第二組來分享，第二組問題一開始發散，所以就沒有時間討論到後面。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "第一個是講到生態保育的問題，像海漂垃圾該如何處理，像船宿潛水及陸域的活動。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "另外有提到潛水的保險問題，因為現行目前在國內潛水並沒有專門為潛水活動用的保險，雖然有一間帶到潛水活動，但是潛水活動反而是在後送那一塊，並不是為了潛水專用的保險，因此在這一塊並沒有談到。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "另外有關於漁船濫捕，有成員建議把那個題目的「濫捕」拿掉，認為2000年以後其實濫捕已經大幅減少。在海巡跟海管的協助之下，其實目前越界的漁船還是有，但是濫捕的情形已經降低很多，因此他覺得應該把濫捕的問題拿掉。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "另外，就高雄到東沙的距離太遠，還有島上消防車、救護車比較缺乏。海上的能量增加，造成現在濫捕的情形沒那麼嚴重。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "接著是在活動上人員的培訓、陸域活動該如何規劃，還有潛水員來這邊活動的人員，可能要經過訓練、帶隊，還要經過哪一些條件及申請制度等等，還有是不是要用小型的垃圾船，用鋁帶的方式來蒐集回來。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "像也有成員提到以露營取代旅館，還有提到4G及清淤，遭遇到的風險跟障礙，像小型垃圾船不確定，投入的經費可能過少，說實在的，陸地保育跟海洋保育所需要的差距經費很大，因為有的時候到海邊上去是要坐船，所以船的費用大於在陸地上的費用，但是在分配的時候，可能是一視同仁，大家平均來分，所有成員的共識是經費不足，政府對於海洋保育是不足的，並不是環保署的經費可以來執行這個業務。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "另外也有提到國防部申請45天是不是可以縮短期程，另外也有提到油輪是不是在航程到東沙附近，可以放到東沙，也有成員提到人數不好管制。" }, { "speaker": "李孟聰", "speech": "接著是使用衛星行動電話，我們這一組討論太熱烈，不知道這一些負責的單位是不是正確，有海保署、體育署、主計，有國防部、交通部、金管會、NCC、海巡及海管處的部分，我針對這一組報告到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "不好意思，因為我們這一組花太多的時間在前半部討論，所以到最後面的對應\"負責單位\"的部分，大部分就我個人的認知，這可能是哪一個機關負責，這部分後續要再麻煩幫我們這一組確認調整。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "我們整體看起來，其實不管是海委會或是內政部多年來在東沙群島，他們都做了非常多的努力。我們盤點出來，有一個很大的危機是，也就是經費上的不足，即使在保育及交通甚至包含醫療設備經費，投入在東沙群島上。經費相對於其他的國家公園是非常低的，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有沒有同組的其他同仁想要補充？" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "剛剛提到濫捕的部分，我再說明一下，以馬來西亞燕子島開放觀光為例，其首先就隨之增加海上的能量，才能確保海域安全。其實2000年海巡署成立之後，我們在東沙就有部署海上的能量，從原來只有陸上的能量，到後來增加海上的能量，因此濫捕的情況就有大幅改善，包括最近我們把大陸漁船、鐵殼船帶案處理。剛剛提到船宿業者未來如何協助海巡署的執法，其實可以協助拍照、蒐證，這部分其實在臺灣的周邊海域也有請漁船或是相關能量來協助執法，這一塊是有在推動的，因此要特別澄清一下。此外，今天我們探討開放議題，就是因為復育有成，像海管處的珊瑚復育也做得非常好，很多學者亦相當肯定，海巡署執法很有成效，若再強調東沙濫捕問題對海巡署來說相當沉重，因此我們認為大陸漁船濫捕問題，在長期執法下已經產生嚇阻作用。" }, { "speaker": "姚洲典", "speech": "第二個問題是有關於經費的部分，海委會已將「海洋基本法草案」送到行政院，希望在立法院第一會期能夠儘速通過。至於經費不足的問題有兩個部分，第一個部分是海巡署的狀況跟海管處一樣非常不足，我常提到，雖然魚類沒有投票權，但是我們要重視，為何海豚會死亡，因為是食物鏈的頂端，塑膠只能裂解，而沒有辦法分解，不管貝類或者是魚類誤食之後，可能被高端的魚類或是高端的人類食用，不管在生物、經濟各方面影響都非常大，因此我們希望未來國家政策在海洋經費的部分能夠增加。如果沒有辦法即時增加，未來海委會會依據「海洋基本法」，透過設立海洋永續管理基金的方式，來建構一些海洋的經費，來維護及保育海洋的生態環境，這樣子才能找出問題，才能找出解決方式，這才是最重要的，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有沒有其他同仁想要針對這一組的報告有回饋或者是想要提出問題？" }, { "speaker": "吳祖祥", "speech": "我補充一下，剛剛提到潛水沒有保險的問題，其實澎湖南方四島海域都要有潛水保險，我們國內就有富邦保險在承作，另外國際上潛水，很多地方的要求是潛水人員也要有保險，而國際上保險其實也有好幾個，我自己個人保的是DAN的一年期的，每一年續約，從潛水事故發生之後，把你後送到潛水艙治療，所以保險的部分是不會有問題的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有沒有其他同仁想要補充或者是要提問題的？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們請唐鳳說明一下今天討論的這一些議題，後續會怎麼處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天非常謝謝大家，非常感謝大家願意用「永續發展」當作最基本的價值來討論這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天我們工作人員都穿著聯合國永續發展目標的衣服，也是想要提醒大家：經濟、環境、社會在以前，常常有一點分開來討論，但是我們現在，不管是在全世界聯合國，或者是臺灣自己的政府裡面，我們都希望這三個是彼此加強的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這十七個顏色，代表十七個共同的價值，都是往中間集中。包含淺藍色（#SDG14）是水下的生態系，淺綠色（#SDG15）是陸上生態系，接下來（#SDG16）是大家對於和平、海巡這些工作的重視。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最上面第17項（#SDG17），是指我們不能只靠公部門、NGO或者是私部門，而是要三方加在一起，才能讓「永續環境」成為大家越參與、越覺得重要的事。畢竟這不能完全靠傳統的方式來投票，大家有提到魚是不會投票的。只有靠大家更瞭解這一件事，才能幫自然界發聲。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "海委會願意提這個案子，我自己覺得很感動。內閣裡面有海委會之後，我們在院會發言最積極的朋友之一，就是海委會主委。因此我們可以看到，在各種各樣的題目上，都可以提醒我們其實海洋是比我們想像更大的，海洋的範圍是更多的，這也是以前我們比較不熟悉的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "包含在新的課綱裡面，把海洋教育融入到不同十二年國教裡面，提醒我們不能完全只從陸地上來看海洋，這個是比較大的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天大家做的討論紀錄，會有三個後續利用方式：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個是逐字稿跟今天整理過的心智圖，在週末的時候會做整理並寄給所有人，這個是之後大家討論的共同的基礎。逐字稿並不是馬上公開在網路，大家可以有十天的時間進行修改，如果大家在講的時候，引了某個學者的說法或者是新聞，又或者是國外的潛點有什麼設施，你希望看逐字稿的人能夠看這個參考資料，也就很歡迎在你講的那一句話旁邊打括弧，把更多的參考資料放上去，以後在看這一份逐字稿的人，腦裡面才可以冒出你同樣的東西，希望大家回去之後有十天的時間，幫忙做這樣增補的工作，確定大家都沒有問題的時候，會整個公布在網路上，作為大家參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個，我們在週末的時候，工作小組會把它整理成一份大家的共同建議。這一份建議，我們會在下一個星期一的時候，會交給在行政院負責這些業務的朋友，包括院長、秘書長、張政委及所有的政務委員，用書面報告的形式，包含大家提到的：預算可能是滿重要的，以及所有提出來的事項，我們會盡可能在那一份報告書裡面呈現。同一份文件，在周末時也會給三十幾個部會的開放政府聯絡人確認，給大家看今天討論出來的實況，讓各部會都可以對齊今天的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個，大家經過這樣的討論，覺得真的很需要大家更知道的事情，我們也會在接下來——不管我在周刊的專欄，或者是我自己的FB——其實大家都是自媒體，這邊有不少的自媒體——大家都可以引用這裡的討論，讓大家知道這一個地方，如果大家一起好好去經營它，不要讓它偏廢或者是一下子過度開發的話，真的會變成很有可能臺灣有特色的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "再次感謝大家的貢獻，逐字稿全部公開之後，每一句話跟每一個段落，都歡迎大家在社群網路、工作或者是報告當中繼續引用，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天協作會議到這邊結束。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "謝謝你今天抽空來。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "很高興。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "想問問您Digital Minister在中文應該怎麼稱呼？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "「數位政委」，「數位」也是好幾位的意思。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "這個是蔡英文總統在上任以後首設的職務？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我今天上午在AIT……他們跟我說今天下午會見唐鳳政委，然後就說you should expected to be amazed that’s all。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "沒有，沒有……" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "上次您到紐約有演講，很遺憾沒有機會參加，但是有參加過的人也是說聽你的演講很震撼，所以今天有機會跟您見一面，真的是很榮幸。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "沒有，很高興，可以幫忙。所以您來臺灣多久？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "這一次是星期五剛剛到的，也就是兩天的時間，也就是今天、明天有一些機會跟這邊政府、民間組織見面。這一次來亞洲，主要是Luce學者，像每一年差不多在這個時候，都會把這一季所謂的學者聚集在一起，他們已經到亞洲差不多三至四個月了，這一次是比較合適的機會，讓他們可以分享自己最初的經驗，如果有什麼疑慮、困難的話，大家可以一起來討論，所以是在泰國，但是整合因為臺灣26、27日的時候又是有遊行，很想見識一下。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以你有去遊行？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我有去。去年8月份來的時候，我是跟CSR也是……那個代表團過來，然後我們也見了一些LGBT社群的組織。像婚姻平權的那一些人……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "知道，那一些人現在都在忙公投。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對，所以這一次也順便跟他們再重新見面。而且我覺得像這樣的議題，我覺得學者會比較感興趣，所以我想明年7月份他們來的時候，也會跟他們有這一方面的組織活動、分享、交流。也許可以再跟您說一下Luce基金會基本的情況，也很想聽聽您的背景、故事，這麼新的職位，您有很多對於在臺灣這一方面的設想。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "沒問題，（同仁）要不要先拿兩本漫畫進來。我大概看一下網站上的訊息，包含你們基金會，不過大部分講的是行政面的，也就是大概多少人、多少國家等等，因為您有第一手經驗，您覺得怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我看您的網站，您在digital領域，您是很有經驗，所以看到我們的網站其實是比較老舊的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "不過，也還好，就是文宣性質。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我們現在是在重新設計網站，整個基金會的網站會是新的。尤其像我們面對很多是年輕人，所以希望有更多互動和參與。但是這也是反映出Luce基金會因為在美國還算是比較老牌的基金會，我們是36年成立的，所以有很多時候的作風比較……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "比較有古典味（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "（笑）所以我十年前，是2009年的時候，我那時加入基金會，那時我是最年輕的官員，而且是唯一的一個亞洲白人。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "連多元性上也是比較多一點？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。其實我覺得這個跟美國很多基金會也都有這樣的問題，他們的一些宗旨、項目其實是立足於促進多元化，但是自己本身反映在他們的董事會的成員、招募的員工，其實都會跟他們的理想有一點差距，但是我覺得在美國有很多分歧與爭議，但是這也是大家比較關注的，尤其是年輕人，他們非常關注的一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "你們的目標是大學畢業生，尤其是研一、研二這個年紀？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對，就是三十歲以下。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這當然都是……" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。我2009年以後加入這個基金會以後，其實對於所謂多元化這一方面，反正我也花了一些功夫。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個是今年的？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。不光是種族、背景、學術方向及各方面。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "很多題目都挑得挺好，相當local的感覺，是從在地的需求出發。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。而且今天很不一樣，他們都是跟innovation、科技、FinTech，或者是startup的公司相關，這個跟我們平時以前的不太一樣，以前更多關注於像國際發展、教育、法律援助這一方面，其實比較傳統，或者是新聞、藝術比較傳統。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "但是我想這個也是國際援助、發展的樣貌也在改變，像這一種藝術介入的，以前是不會放到國際發展裡面的，現在也越來越多了。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "所以這個項目是1974年就開始了，因為我們基金會的創始人在60年代的時候去世了，其實有很長的一段時間要採取什麼樣的方式去紀年他，到最後70年的時候去成立Luce學者項目，其實目的是為了美國下一代的年輕人提供一個瞭解亞洲的機會，但是在亞洲生活、工作一年的同時，也增加領導的才能，也是一種訓練。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "就是跨文化領導。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "是。我們從一開始的宗旨是很明確的，這一些人在學校、美國都是所謂的學生領袖，但是他們到亞洲來，是要深入民間、深入當地的社區，然後去瞭解當地的話，更多的時候去觀察、學習，並不是像一般美國人，我想你對美國人很有瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "相當瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "一定要是解決問題，又或者是非常激進去幫助當地人去怎麼樣採取一些措施、改變當地的現狀，這個完全是跟我們的設計、初衷是背離的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "挺好的。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我們在挑選Luce學者的時候也是非常關注，不管以前有什麼成就、學習成績有多好，又或者是參加過多少組織、活動，對他們個人一些品質也是花很多的時間去瞭解、理解。因為把他們派到亞洲一年，然後都是跟當地的組織進行合作，而不是很大的國際機構或者是跨國的一些企業這一種，對他們的個人這種是否很快地進入到當地的這一種環境，能夠去虛心學習。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "從人類學民族誌的態度。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我覺得這個對於美國的年輕人來說還是一個挑戰。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，尤其他們沒有來過亞洲的話，更是一個挑戰。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "因為基金會有亞洲項目，是專門幫助亞洲和美國的一些大學或者是研究機構去促進所謂亞洲研究，我們在這一方面其實是有專門的去資助、支持，所以在Luce學者關注的就是為還沒有機會去瞭解亞洲的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "等於你們就是他們的第一印象。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。給他們提供一個機會。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "特別好，特別重要。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "所以到現在也有四十多年的歷史。70幾年的時候，來的前面幾批的，跟他們去見面，他們對於亞洲還是保持那一種關注，很多人都這樣子各自的那個領域裡面，都是非常資深的人，但是還是非常地關注亞洲，所以我覺得有達到這個目標。而且他們彼此間還是保持很緊密的聯繫，有的時候隔五年、十年都會有機會。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以你們現在有一個人正在臺灣或者是正要來臺灣？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對，已經在臺灣。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "已經在security study那邊？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對，講philips（音譯）。他是很有意思的背景，他十七歲的時候，他就加入美國陸戰隊的Marine，到了二十一歲的時候才上大學，用了所謂的GI，然後最後上研究生，所以他對這一種去安全的問題，當然還有民主、人權這一些都會比較感興趣。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，臺灣這個很多，我們才剛辦過GCTF，就是台美雙邊訓練，今天是open tech fund的Radio Free Asia對於人權工作者的培力，因為以前大概香港都是舉著大旗，現在降半旗了，所以我們要擔任這個角色了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "接下來奧斯陸的Freedom Forum等等這一系列大概都會在臺灣，等於是不間斷的，所以如果John有興趣可以多參與。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "是。如果我能夠讓他跟你……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "可以，就直接聯繫一下琬梅就是了。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "特別像奧斯陸Freedom Forum那幾天，如果他能夠去當自願者，他會很願意。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，因為那個就跟核心關懷是完全一致的，就是如何用自由的這個價值做外交。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "在政大就是給他一個接待的單位，就很像政大的同事、教授，他們各自有各自的一些研究方向，所以他們的時間還是比較寬鬆的，他也是很希望在政大之外，能夠參與一些……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "政大校內即使像商學院有IMBA，其實也是國際領袖都是很有趣的年輕人，我也有去那邊講課，很有意思。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "能不能跟我講一講你的背景？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我的背景大概是8歲學程式設計，14歲中輟，大概是國二的時候，中學二年級就自己創業了，後來那一家公司也還行，Intel投資這一些的，日後我就投入開放源碼的工作，所以大概就是做像早期我不知道您是不是知道free net，是拓爾（音譯）以前當時就有的金磚工程、防火牆正在剛開始做他工作的時候，當然民間社群也需要一些相應的工具，所以這方面我也做了一些，包含中文化跟技術上的貢獻。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "除此之外，去推廣blog in自媒體的這一件事，所以大概是2000年初創了幾次業，大概是2008年左右，跟矽谷一家Socialtext的公司（合作），這一家公司比較有意思的是，是把早期做像試算表dambrin clin（音譯），或者是做wiki，比較是大眾一起創作的工具，試著把它帶到fortune 100（音譯）裡面。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們也有接一些美國house in department或者是澳洲……其實公部門就是大型的NPO，我們在裡面引進資訊工具、做流程再造，然後去break藩籬，讓他們的management可以不要說好像一批人來了，所有這一種的knowledge都綁在腦裡，然後一個世代過去了，什麼東西都沒有留下來，新的人又從頭摸索，然後把這個留在企業當中，所以2008年就開始做這個工作，2010年跟蘋果，主要是做Siri，然後也做了一些字典。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "那時候你在臺灣？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，我都在臺灣，我基本上都是遠距工作，中間當然我就是全世界辦黑客松，大概二、三十個國家。我其實在蘋果就是一個類似他們跟開放社群中間的一個橋梁，因為當時矽谷比較是開放這一派跟比較封閉的這一派有一點涇渭分明，我們在每一個大公司大概都有這一些……你要說暗樁也可以，總之像ambassador這樣的角色，當然我們現在到今年就很清楚了，微軟跟Github就合併了、IBM跟Red Hat合併了，所以倡導開放了，就影響了大型的機構，讓他們願意用開放的方式來進行創新，所以我2010年開始跟蘋果一起工作，大概到2016年，也是六年的時間，中間在牛津大學出版社也是做了一個工作，去幫助我們叫做low resource community，就是自己的語言，像蘇圖語、祖魯語或者這一些語言，並沒有大到大公司會去翻譯成他們的語言，但是他們的語言也在流失。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "如果新一輩的年輕人沒有辦法再用這一些語言上網或者是操作資訊工具的話，等於是資訊對他們來講是文化的喪失，我們就是希望在當地的語言圈裡面培育出包含人工智慧、字典等等的能力，這一些都累積好之後交給這一些大公司，就可以一次讓少數民族的語言也可以用資訊工具，這個也是我跟牛津大學的一個項目。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "這個項目有繼續嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "有。現在牛津大學自己繼續，但是我們現在在臺灣等於是當數位政委，我們等於是用國家力量，在今年年底有一個國家語言發展法，臺灣本來有一個官方語言，就是現在在用的這個語言，到了年底有22種官方語言，也就是阿美族人多的地方，阿美語就可以當公文書，同樣的道理放在客家語各個不同的腔調，或者是馬祖的閩東語，包含臺灣手語大概都會變成官方語言。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "22個官方語言的地方，其實是很特殊的，任何一個小學，你現在是說要用阿美語學微積分，你要找得到用阿美語教微積分的老師並不是那麼實際，因此這裡面有非常多的數位工作，包含遠距的教學、AI進行語音採集及辨識、自動翻譯，包含我們把阿美語如果錄製得差不多了，跟他相近的Sakilaya語，能不能透過AI的方式自動翻譯出Sakilaya社群。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我覺得現在AI發展成熟度到哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "已經足已……至少到human parity，就是做得不比人差，你說比人好也沒有，但是不比人差，這樣就夠了，因為我們可以省去非常多工作的時間。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "像我自己有主持一個計畫是「萌典」，就是一個包含國語的辭典、客家話、台語，各個不同的腔調及諺語，另外還有我跟臺灣文總有合編一個……" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "這個是APP？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "也是網站。用得人非常多，他們是在偏鄉離島直接把這個當作語言教材，也包含像兩岸共同編的那一本辭典，也就是「中華語文大辭典」，也就是同音異時、同時異名的東西，大概都是透過這一種群眾智慧的方式讓大家可以參與這個語言的現代化，這個是我自己入閣之前的一些背景。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "大部分的時候，我大概2014年33歲退休的，然後就投身公益活動，因為那一年碰到占領運動，就幫忙學生占領了立法院22天，讓大家看到……" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "您當時在那邊？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我主要是協助通訊的角色，第一天晚上就去了，本來以為只會一個晚上，但是就維持了22天。當時其實可以看到資通訊扮演很重要的角色，以前這裡面的人討論事情，但是因為有了資通訊，50萬人可以同時討論這一件事，當時有非常多的資通訊工具，像服務貿易協定到底跟你有什麼關係，我們就會說開發一個工具，你打入公司名稱，就把跟你有關係的那一段摘出來，用大家可以理解的方式，我們大概是20個NGO，從人權的角度、環境的角度、勞工的角度分門別列去討論好這一個，我常常說這個不是demonstration、抗議，而是一個demo，是告訴政府說你只要有一個恰當的通訊工具，你其實可以越討論越收攏，不一定要越討論越發散。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "在這個過程中，我們的運動叫做「g0v」，意思非常簡單，也就是看不順眼政府做的任何一項網站，因為像臺灣一定都是gov.tw，什麼「.gov.tw」，你看不順眼也不用罵，就做一個「g0v.tw」，你在網址列上把「o」換成「0」，你就進入shuttle government，所以如果你覺得政府的預算大家看不懂，就做一個「budget.g0v.tw」，大家可以就事論事對每一個中央政府預算的每一個項目去進行分析與討論。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個討論有一個好處，可以跳過中間媒體的取義或者是代議士自己的程序，像這一些的做法是，我們會拋棄掉著作權，政府一旦覺得不錯的主意，政府會直接把它納入下一次的採購案裡面，就會變成公部門的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以像我們現在在我們公共政策的平台上，臺灣23百萬人已經有超過5百萬人在這個平台上，就可以一次看到所有部會所有正在進行的計畫，一共有1,379個，包含招了什麼標、開了什麼案，然後對所有大家具體的建議，你就不用再透過你的參議員、國會議員進行討論，而是你直接覺得大橋現在想要辦理的情形，你就直接留言，我們的承辦人就會直接來回覆你，他也不用個別回覆，就是一個人回覆，之後大家google都找得到，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我想在全世界其他的國家，也就是AI發展很快的是美國與中國大陸，對吧！" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "他們發展很快，不過方向跟我們相反。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "就拿美國來說的話，美國也是民主國家，但是像您剛才說的這一些……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "激進式透明。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。在美國我覺得是不太可能的，在臺灣為什麼有這一種？政府、環境，我覺得對教育各方面都有一定的要求，有什麼樣的因素……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們沒有legacy，我小時候還在戒嚴，所以我們是第一代能做民主的，我們沒有200年的共和傳統，我們前面都是獨裁傳統，所以在這一個過程裡面，其實第一代能做民主的也是第一代能用網路的，並不是200年的代議政治碰上20年的直接民主，我們這20年就是代議政治跟直接民主一起發展，所以我覺得沒有legacy這很重要，這也不是只發生在臺灣，好比像愛沙尼亞、西班牙在他們的占領運動之後，其實你都是看到本來一個高度集權的地方，你忽然間有民主了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "然後你看我們CIVICUS Monitor說所有的集會結社言論自由，整個臺灣完全開放，可是在我們的周邊，每一個都是在縮減，那當然到這邊又有一些綠的，可是我們在這一個區域，這個是我們的identity，就是說我們的公民社會空間是在擴張的，所以第一個當然是民主與網路同時出現。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第二，在我們從解嚴到第一次總統直選大概是有七、八年的時間，在這一個過程中，有非常多的NGO，其實就是太陽花占領時旁邊的那一些NGO，不管做環境、人權、國際特赦，他們的公信力比當時剛解嚴的政府要過的，他們已經做很多地方培植的工作，當時還沒有總統直選，還沒有叫做「democratic institution」，所以這一些在地的NGO正當性，直到今天，像你發生一個災難，慈濟說這一件事是這樣，我們衛福部說這一件事是那樣，相信慈濟的比較多。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以，這個時候我們就瞭解到政府必須要開放，因為如果不開放，他的正當性不會比較高，你必須要透過開放，正當性才可以保持。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "在政府部門有沒有抵制的情形或者是現象？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "很多公務員就是參加之前NGO的團體，其實我們都有一個共同的認知，就是中華民國臺灣這樣子的一個legitimacy，在臺灣一般的人民常民裡，是一個很大的NGO，我們要是做得好，當然有一些正當性，但是我們做得哪裡比較不好，民間自己就組織起來，然後把事情做得更好。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以，我覺得這個對於公務員而言，是他們從公務體系的訓練裡面，他們本來就理解到必須要跟民間的NPO來做partnership，他沒有辦法自己用自己的正當性，我這邊常常舉一個例子，這個是我在空總的辦公室，我們在台北有一個社會創新實驗中心，而這整個裝潢、設計都是這一些NPO做的，這個是喜憨兒（people with down syndrome）畫出來的，這個是非常有創意的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "像我們不斷測試無人車，他說這個是無人車，但是是open的，任何人都可以改，三輪車比較小，撞到人不會怎麼樣，所以我們在發展AI的時候，我們先用設備需求來帶動這一個技術創新。MIT MediaLab那邊覺得合適跟人的距離、溝通方式不一定是臺灣覺得合適的，因此要在這樣的場域裡面，讓大家有系統地實驗，甚至有系統地違法，我們這個違法的過程，其實都公開給大家知道，也就是任何人都可以來申請我覺得現在的法規命令不好，我想要違法一年，但是我覺得這個對社會整體有幫助，並不是只有對我們有幫助，這個時候就會想辦法找到正確的部會來違法，違法一年之後，大家都可以看到AI或者是遠距控制，一年證明下來對大家都有好處，這一些regulatory co-creation，就是我們讓民間來寫法律，他透過連署、提案或者是怎麼樣的方式，如果不work，我們感謝投資人，大家學到一些東西，那如果它work的話，就變成新的法規命令，即使要修改法律，我們要修改四年，但是在這中間的營運模式都可以繼續營運，因此我們在這一個網站可以看到上百個，也就是現在法規已經落後的部分，民間透過勇於違法，而且勇於來申請違法的方式，一起來進行共同創新，這樣就不會變成很像公部門變成像您所說的保持要維持什麼，民間很激進突破什麼，這中間就會被撕裂。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們這邊是說大家的立場不同，有沒有共同的價值？共同價值是有的，而是聯合國永續發展目標，這個排序看怎麼樣，創新是可以達到共同價值，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "所謂的共同價值其實在美國社會是一個很大的問題，尤其是我自己回去，11月6日就有中期選舉，但是我想新聞你也都有看到，看到很多的暴力，美國不同政黨間的分歧，好像有一種越來越大的鴻溝，所以有的人說什麼是美國價值，我們是不是還有一些共同的價值，也就是智慧從兩邊極端往中間拉。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "但是像您剛剛所說的這一些，我想那一些學者以後都會回到美國社會，這是他們會想的一個問題，像你剛剛所講的，對他們是會很有啟發，你覺得你對美國也是會很瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是，有一定的瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "而且我想在美國，不管是從科技上的話，專業跟教育各方面，都是有足夠的基礎設施。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我想人才絕對不是問題。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我想在美國、社會這一個層面上，需要創造什麼樣的環境，能夠像這樣一些比較前瞻性的政策，能夠得到實施或者是被人採納嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，我想跟您分享的是，我們其實在美國一直有辦工作坊，我們在NYC有辦過工作坊，我們有一些朋友在Bowling Green有run過我們在Uber進入臺灣時的系統，而這一套系統有一個特色，是AI帶來討論，大家在共同的事實基礎上討論，絕對不會越討論越結仇，他的概念非常簡單，這個是西雅圖的一家新創做的，叫做「pol.is」，這個圖是當年Uber的時候，你可以一次看到所有的朋友們在Uber上，先讓大家看事實及時間軸等等。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "接下來，我覺得最關鍵的是我們留一個月下來，大家不討論解決方案，我覺得美國很多跳到解決方案，我們這個月是談大家的感受，所有的發言都必須用「我覺得」開頭，除了感受之外，別的不能提。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "很有意思，這個是上兩個星期在泰國的時候，我們在meeting的時候，如果有什麼人跟你講得到的挑戰，你第一個反映並不是如何幫他解決問題。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，等於是非暴力溝通的一個準則，如果沒有理解到對方的感受，就跳到解決方案，等於是一種情緒暴力，因為你忽略他的感受，所以我們的做法是，一整個月先確認彼此對於相同事實的感受，你可能覺得很高興、我可能覺得很害怕，這個都沒有關係的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "等大家共同感受都確立、凝聚，我們再來想解決方法，這個時候創新就可以分好壞了，好的創新就是照顧最多人感受的創新，然後再把它保證做成法律，所以像這個概念就是我現在在這，大家手機或者是電腦都收到一個網址，你看到某個朋友對這一個事的感受，可以說我認同或者是我不認同，隨著你按認同或者是不認同，這很容易按，按幾下，你的位置就會改變，就會走到相當於跟你比較相近的位置去。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這有兩個效果：你可以看到各面都有你的朋友，不是沒有臉孔的敵人；第二，你按了幾次之後，你就會想說我也想出一些感受，別人也許更會認同，所以他也可以contribute，這個就跟一般民調或問卷不一樣，因為民調問卷是別人寫好的，你只是填答，但是這個是美國人感受是隨時分享的、隨時填答的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以像Bowling Green，大家本來以為他可能黨派分明、鮮明，但其實就只有五件事情是有partisan mize，其實只是浪費大量的事情、時間在這五件事，但是你問Bowling Green的未來時，我們剛剛這個畫面有一個特色，你不能去做人身攻擊，所以這個時候大家願意花更多的時間在consensus statement，好比像K to 12，目前藝術的部分不足夠，這個是任何黨派的人都同意。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "像網路的選項、PGMU之外，他們希望有什麼樣的更多的寬頻，這也是大家都同意的，但是因為一般在報紙上……" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "只能看這個……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "就造成一個幻覺，我的鄰人是我的仇人，但是事實上不是，大家都同意很多事情，所以當我們把這一件事確立之後，你看兩千多人投票，共22萬多票裡面，其實絕大部分是大家都可以同意的，這個當作施政方針，不管是哪一個黨派上來，不會遭到反對、也不會遊行。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "能夠有rough consensus的先走，像當時Uber進入臺灣，像納稅、納保及納管，這個是我們三個禮拜之後，所有的人的感受，包含Uber司機都同意的，我們就先走，大概是這個做法，所以我們在美國、多倫多都會帶這一套的做法。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "像……我知道……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "也差不多，但沒關係。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我們的會議，2點鐘應該就要結束了。您的工作人員staff是不是都很年輕？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們的staff其實是從每一個部會各借調一個人，所以台灣34個部會，我理論上可以有34個同事，目前大概是22個。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "是他們推薦還是你自己去？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我是直接跟部長說：「有沒有人您覺得比較願意來做multistakeholder？」所謂「collaborative governance」，就是協作式治理這一套，所以並沒有挑年齡。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第二，來了之後他的考績、ranking及每一天的工作都自己決定，我是不manage他們的，所以每個人來，考績都甲等，因為每個人都自己打（笑）；這裡的重點是要習慣你放下部會的本位主意，然後一次用跨部會的視野去規劃政策的能力，但是這個能力並不是我們去教，而是一直碰到新案子，大家一起學的，這個是共同學習圈。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們今天才在討論每一個部會當然來的時間不同，像也許一年或者是半年之類的，但是其實每一個部會（公務員）即使回去了，也會感覺到別的部會不一定是扯我後退，大家都是有很多彼此貢獻，就是跟你們學人的設計是一樣的，你們來亞洲只有一陣子，但是回去之後你亞洲的朋友聯繫都還是保持，大概這是我們辦公室的組成方法。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我知道您的時間很緊張。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個送你，我們一些工作的漫畫。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "這個是不同的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "每一個是不同語言，像有阿美族、原住民族。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我們下次來的時候，我們會去太魯閣族，跟他們有一些互動，因為有一個朋友在台大社會工作系。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "他本身是太魯閣族？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "太好了，我們接下來有很多族語的工作可以一起來做。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "我可以跟Aurora繼續聯繫，今年7月份的時候可以回到臺灣，今年是臺灣跟香港，是屬於……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "明年7月份？" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "對，明年7月份，就是2019年7月份，等於是在他們一年結束之後，他們會到臺灣、香港，然後有兩個星期的時間，到台北的時候，希望可以跟您……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我想我們那時就約在這裡（空總），就約在這一個辦公室（指社會創新實驗中心）。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "希望可以跟你有稍微長一點的時間，我知道您的時間是非常寶貴，但是我覺得跟他們在一起，如果有一、兩個小時時間的話，對他們的影響，或者是回到美國以後不斷成長，然後到最後達到我們對他們設計，我覺得都還會記得……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我想18個人都要能夠講到話，大概是兩個小時，就請琬梅幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "Li Ling", "speech": "謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "高遵", "speech": "各位媒體朋友，非常歡迎大家來參加茶敘活動，今天有臺灣的媒體、國際的媒體，歡迎大家來參加茶敘活動。" }, { "speaker": "高遵", "speech": "今天很特別，根據漫畫很特別的形式，根據開放政府協作的成果用漫畫的形式跟大家說明，政委也有影片跟大家分享，接下來把這個活動交給政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家知道我們每半年會有這樣子的一次茶敘，一方面我們透過短片跟這一次漫畫的形式，漫畫有非常多種不同臺灣各族群的語言，也包含英文、日語，剛剛拍的是阿美語，是原民會的老師幫忙翻譯的，當然還有客語跟台語，漫畫放在後面，等一下出場的時候，大家都可以帶一套。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個漫畫是解釋開放政府協作會議整個的流程，是用大家耳熟能詳「報稅軟體難用到爆炸」的案子來解釋，在這個影片裡面，這兩年底在各個不同部會的工作，剛剛提到開放政府、社會創新、青年參與的工作跟大家作一個簡單的介紹。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想等一下跟之前茶敘一樣，開放大家提問，問什麼都可以，在此之前，先看一下3分鐘的影片，影片的連結應該也都在群組裡面傳給大家，或掃QR code，我們讓大家看一下影片，之後開放大家提問，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家對於影片裡面或者是外面想要問的，就開放現場提問。" }, { "speaker": "中央社記者", "speech": "政委有在影片中有分享很多臺灣暖實力到國外分享，像紐約或者是去過很多國家，政委下一步有沒有其他的國際交流或者是其他的活動？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "11月4日至11日左右有一個禮拜左右的時間，會造訪多倫多、渥太華、溫哥華這三個加拿大主要的城市。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在多倫多主要就像剛剛看到在紐約，我們是把這一套民間跟公部門怎麼樣互相協作「vTaiwan」的方式，去跟當地的公民科技社群，他們要成立g0v多倫多。其實在前兩天也成立了g0v義大利，我也有到場致詞，雖然是用遠距的方式，他們是找了Jeffery——永續發展目標主要的提出者之一——從預算視覺化這一些，我們在臺灣耳熟能詳的g0v專案，在義大利也開始要做同樣一套，在多倫多也是做一樣的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在渥太華是跟數位各國，「D7」——像我這樣子工作的朋友們——一起來討論接下來我們在公部門裡面如何共享一些數位治理相關的資源。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "溫哥華除了跟當地的橋界活動之外，我們也有一個社會企業叫做「芙彤園」，各位在全家便利商店都有看過，他們要在溫哥華有一個展店，也就是一個開幕，告訴加拿大說臺灣社會企業的重視，所以大概是這三個不同的事項。" }, { "speaker": "高遵", "speech": "提問的時候也歡迎大家說一下媒體跟姓名，大家也都認識。" }, { "speaker": "親子天下記者", "speech": "有一個爭議是國中、小的數位學習計畫，這個是教育部資科司主導，應該是行政院前瞻計畫的一環，但是我們聽到的是，基層的教師或者是大學教授，像葉丙成教授有一些方向，有一點意見，也就是把錢花錯地方、花在硬體上，到底基層教師有沒有準備好，或者是真正需要的是平板或者是教師之類的。" }, { "speaker": "親子天下記者", "speech": "我想請教一下政委，您覺得理想未來十年中、小學數位學習計畫，應該是什麼藍圖？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當初在推數位國家創新經濟DIGI＋的方案時，前瞻基礎建設是特別預算，是以資本門為原則，所以就把數位國家計畫裡面的資本門的部分往前瞻基礎建設裡面去編，但是公務預算就因此多了一些經常門的部分就編在本來的公務預算裡面，這個純粹是科目上的分流，造成大家很容易有一個誤解，如果只去看特別預算的話，大部分都是資本門，所以才會看到資本門的支出都放在那裡，但是公務預算裡面有非常多經常門的部分，包含老師、評鑑時、如何簡化大家的工作，大家的更多心力放在這上面，也有這一些數位培力的工作，這一些都有編，如果只看前瞻計畫的部分，沒有看到這一個部分，這個先說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，其實DIGI的數位素養跟以前所講的資通訊是不一樣的，資通訊比較像高速公路，DIGI在數位上的應用，我們在十二年國教新課綱培養的，並不是上兩節的程式設計課去瞭解底下的技術，是要讓大家不要害怕技術。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們學習的方法包含老師的共同背課，包含偏鄉跟大城市能夠透過即時視訊的4K方式作為創新教學，或者是透過AI的方式，讓願意學習族語或者是其他語言的朋友，能夠像SIRI聊天一樣，在家裡有一個虛擬的學習圈，在課堂上一起是做專案，而不是在課堂上，並不是由上而下傳授的方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想「數位」的重點是：並不是學生從一堂課到下一次課，中間都不想這一堂課的事情，而是有很多實際的事情可以在線上的社群去做。老師共同背課社群其實也是一樣，非常蓬勃在發展，因此我們數位學習的基本概念是，透過數位，一起接觸到全世界關心到同樣議題的社群。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管是國民教育或者大學教學，現在盡可能讓它變成一個窗口，讓學生能夠連結到全世界關心到這十七個不同議題的永續發展社群，讓大家知道解決問題並不是只有對臺灣能夠解決，而是可以連到全世界都可以解決，這個叫做「開放式創新」，所以你問我數位導入教育是什麼？以前這一種穀倉式創新變成是開放式創新，就是老師跟學生是一起創新，而不是老師一定有什麼東西要教學生的態度。" }, { "speaker": "經濟日報記者", "speech": "其實前天您有參加我們最近正在舉辦行政院科技會報主辦的5G策略諮議會，第一天吳政委拋棄了很有趣的議題，迎接5G時代，是不是所有的電信商要一起去蓋基地台，吳政委提出我們叫做「要蓋一條高速公路的構想」，而這個構想其實起源於活化節能、不想加劇數位落差的善意。" }, { "speaker": "經濟日報記者", "speech": "但是有些業者不樂意，他認為過去5G時代是誰的基地台多、客戶多，你今天居然告訴我們說不要基地台，大家共用一個，變成爭議滿大的。" }, { "speaker": "經濟日報記者", "speech": "我想請教政委您對於這個議題的看法，如何化解這樣的爭議？如何看政委各持己見的態度？" }, { "speaker": "經濟日報記者", "speech": "另外一個問題是，行政院長賴院長有提到希望明年把國家推動雙語國家的願景，這個政策要落實其實有很多方方面面，其實臺灣推動英語教育行之有年了，但是國人的英語程度並不如大家預想，學界聽到覺得不可能推動，因為光找師資就找不到。" }, { "speaker": "經濟日報記者", "speech": "為何英語教育一直無法落實到這個日常當中？政委有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實5G從第十五版到第十六版這一個標準的制定，如果拿高速公路來比方，雖然不是很完美的比方，比較像我們本來的技術只能開一些線道、省道的平面道路，也就是吞吐量有限，或者是即時反映速率沒有辦法那麼多，也就是沒有辦法一次載具這麼多，現在工程界發明了一種新的方法，可以蓋真的更寬的高速公路，有很好的特性；但是很誠實來講，全世界都沒有真的把它從頭到尾蓋完的經驗，等於這個材料才剛出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在全臺灣各地先有一些「垂直實證」的場域，我們先按照實際像在5G SRB，日本朋友有分享一個很好的例子，用遠距遙控去開推土機，這樣不僅比較安全，而且其實開推土機的人從一開始開推土機到下一個工地就不用奔波，切換到另外一個遠端遙控就可以了，而且過程中行控中心的紀錄有完整的資料，所以接下來要訓練人工智慧等等比較容易，比起在每一臺推土機裝感測器，顯然是容易得多了，在通訊裡面裝就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是像在這樣的特定場域裡面，不需要從臺灣頭蓋到臺灣尾，只要在這個工地裡面安裝5G的設備就可以了，我們接下來會用這樣子新的工法，但是蓋的並不是全臺灣的，而是特定的地點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個好處是，我們可以用同一個頻譜，不用彼此干擾，在這樣子的地點用同一個技術、在那個地點用相同的頻譜測另外一種技術，反正在空間上是隔開的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們接下來會先用沙盒概念，讓需要實驗的朋友們，如果是非營利，現在已經可以提出，營利也可以很快提出，在這一個過程中，把有一個想法變成真的發現這個服務跟5G的技術是不是有所對齊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等到大家發現有所對齊的時候，我們才規劃需要幾條高速公路就蓋幾條，後來發現不對齊，大家想像5G根本還沒有完整，也不需要為了那一種應用去做不必要的佈建，所以沙盒的實驗接下來一、兩年是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個問題，我想自從原住民族基本法、客家語言基本法，我們即將通過國家語言發展法，其實都讓我們不是雙語，可能是二十幾個語言的國家，這是為什麼漫畫裡面，像也有台語、阿美語，當然也有英語、日語等等，任何人在臺灣固有族群的語言，在那個地方可能是過半數的人使用，不是鄉土語言的課程去教那個語言，想要用Sakizaya去學微積分，只要是有這樣子想法的朋友們，教育部其實需要去建立這樣子一些國家語言的資料庫去支持。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以在所謂的英語變成雙語之前，是把固有語言照顧好，這個是第一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我的理解，院長目前的規劃是重新解除好比在幼稚園或者是國小一年級使用的限制或者是師資上的不足，這個是長期的計畫，沉浸式的教學，如果很小的時候是英語或者是固有語言不一定是哪一種語言，這一些小孩到十八歲，變成社會中間主力的時候，那時我們才可以討論英語是不是要作為所謂官方語言使用，從幼稚園一路到十八歲，還有十二年的時間，這個過程中，是整個社會慢慢習慣這一個氛圍，而不是由上而下強壓十八歲的朋友忽然間沒有學英文到某個程度，不是國民，不是這樣的推法。" }, { "speaker": "日本記者", "speech": "想問您一個基本的事情，您說您提出開放政府這一件事，您為何想要推動開放政府這一件事？在什麼樣的全球背景下，您認為需要開放政府？我記得在兩年您推的開放政府，您覺得哪一些是不足？又或者是碰到什麼困難？謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼要推動開放政府，很簡單來講，就是要建立政府跟民間的互信，這個是辦公室的核心價值，我們當然有一些旁邊的價值，像左邊是讓公民社會看到有一些事情不一定要等政府做，公民社會可以先做，然後政府再跟上，也就是像沙盒的精神。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "右邊是我們適度導入數位工具的話，在以前大家想說便民服務，幫人民節省兩個小時，常常因為這樣的關係，基層承辦人員要加班兩個小時，工作並沒有減少，只是轉移到工具上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在透過數位工具的導入，是幫所有的人省所有的時間，國發會有「政府數位準則」的beta版測試，像數位服務的時候，把大家的聲音、經驗找出來，這樣的設計服務是省所有人的力氣，並不是大家一定要有四個部會去上四個不同的網站資訊等等，浪費所有的人的做法，右邊是讓作業流程更輕鬆。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是回到開放政府的這一件事，在現在公民社會裡面，大家對於政府的距離是一個距離，但是因為社群網路及其他網路技術的關係，本來大家要等著在地待議的委員或者是部長等等去組織大家，但是現在大家在社交網路上有一個「＃」，動不動10萬人就組織起來了，不需要政府來組織，因為這樣的關係，人民跟人民間的距離很近，相對之下對政府的距離變遠了，但是事實上沒有變遠，但是相對上變遠了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "開放政府的意思是反過來說要完全相信人民，也把這個距離拉到目前人民跟人民間距離這麼近的程度，到底要怎麼做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很具體來講，把所有各部會1,300多項的重大政策施政計畫，全部公布在「join.gov.tw」的平台上，看到任何計畫或者任何批評指教的地方，直接上去留言，我們的專業事務官就會直接跟大家進行對話，這一位承辦就不用接四十通電話，每一個都不知道前面三十九個人問過一樣的問題，不但是省掉大家的時間，而且也養成就事論事討論的習慣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是在透明、參與、當責、涵融的這四個基礎上，讓大家的互信可以加強，這個是具體的回答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前我們碰到主要的阻礙或者是困難，其實是我們在工作裡面，大家要先習慣去相信民眾，但是其實一般聽到有5,000個人要連署、上街，其實公務員的心理有一點害怕，所以這個時候要做的事，不但透過協作會議，看到提案雖然在網路上充滿負能量，像「報稅軟體難用到爆炸」，誰在乎、誰痛苦，他這麼在乎，所以直接邀進來跟我們的開放政府聯絡人一起去進行工作，然後再把網友所有的想法都不會去進行改寫，大家說「字爆多」、我們就寫「字爆多」，大家說「華麗到讓人迷惘」，我們就說「華麗到讓人迷惘」，總之不會讓網友覺得可以洗版。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就算是五千人都留言「字爆多」，那就是一張便利貼，我們透過服務流程、設計的方式，把報稅前、中、後的大家主觀感受，好比像大家記得去年5月報稅完之後，會跳出財政部的「娃娃」，「感謝大家對於國家貢獻」之類的，也就是讓大家心情好一點，但是有一位網友尖銳指出他想到要報稅，心情就不好，所以我們說痛快，也就是痛快一點過去就好了，而是縮短流程，並不是想要讓大家在中間心情好，大家可以有各種各樣的貢獻，這個貢獻都放在加上去，而不能彼此抵銷、攻擊的空間，在這樣的空間當中，我們慢慢就讓公務人員感覺到原來這一些朋友們真的是可以來幫忙，會吵的朋友不是要糖吃，而是要進廚房一起做糖吃，慢慢公務人員的恐懼、不安、疑慮，慢慢就可以消除，這個就是文化的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也很高興台南市政府把這一套開放政府聯絡人，有一組人跟網友直接互動的概念，直接放在台南市政府正規的編制當中，當然未來也很期待其他縣市也能夠引進這樣的精神，畢竟很多我們在中央協作討論出來的東西，實際在執行還是要回到地方政府。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "地方政府如果每一個局處都有這樣的人可以跟中央對接的話，我們會更接地氣，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "日本記者", "speech": "你的概念有明確的方式，很多人是用投票來選舉民意代表，並透過民意代表來實現政策，如果政府來的話，也就是不用立委跟民意代表，這樣會不會發生？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該是不會，當我們處理一些地方性案例的時候，像當時在恆春，大家請內政部的空勤總隊，就是黑鷹直升機去設駐恆春機場。為何恆春人要這個？因為他們離最近的大醫院有90分鐘的車程，所以如果有一些重大傷病的時候，這個救治有時來不及，他們希望黑鷹直升機去當救護車用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個過程中，我們並沒有跳過委員，像當時在台北的鍾佳濱委員透過視訊來參與討論，而且是跟各級當地的組織者，像恆春旅遊醫院、南門醫院、衛生所及基督教醫院等等的朋友，也包含在地的代表們，也改變縣議員的朋友們，像在地的鄉民代表——不是PTT——去進行討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "重點是以前在議會的形式裡面，好像一定要馬上做出一個決定，你急著做出決定，就會變成每一個人都想要解決的方法，有些人覺得應該是內政部派一架直升機，但是內政部說沒有多的黑鷹直升機，也許國防部旁邊的軍營可以支援一下，內政部說沒有這樣的編制，是不是可以蓋一個快一點的快速道路，交通部說其實衛福部蓋大一點的醫院就可以了，衛福部說有提前瞻建設，但是這個是國發會或者是編一個預算，也許讓內政部來執行。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，每一個議員或者是立法委員都有偏好的解決方法，我們的工作之所以跟他們不是對立的，我們不是在最後拍板解決的段落，我們是蒐集事實及感受的段落。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個段落當中有一個很重要的條款，也就是冰桶挑戰的條款，就是讓A機關覺得B機關主辦，B機關覺得C機關主辦的時候，不好意思，大家都去恆春，「均應並列於主辦機關」，所以圖上看到的所有人都去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們就花了五個多小時的時間，去把每一個之前所有人曾經提出過的解決方案，所有綠色的這一些建議、橘色的回應、黃色提出來的問題點、藍色事實的部分，一個個加以確認。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣有什麼好處？到最後大家全部確認完之後會有一個共同價值，什麼是共同價值？不管你是哪一派、哪一個立場、黨派，都覺得這個值得做，這個是共同價值。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們當時討論五個半小時的價值，也就是讓醫師、護理人員把心留在恆春，送到高雄去的話，大家對於醫護人員可能是越來越不信任，因為所有重鎮都往外送，所以這樣討論完之後，這個insight是所有人都可以接受的，我們拿回來給院長，院長會拿給立法委員、議員去進行確認。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "林院長實際到恆春，確定是這樣子，包含以前在恆春服務過的醫學中心朋友，現在已經在國外都透過網路來參加討論，分享他的經驗、感受，在這樣確認完之後，最後的解決方案就是應該要把最好的器材、醫護人員的宿舍、當地醫院，擴充好像編了3億多，讓這一件事在恆春可以落地生根，即使需要飛醫師過來，也是從高雄把醫師飛過來，並不是病人飛過去，是要讓高雄的醫學中心的人員在恆春當地進行教學及實作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個如果是個別私下討論的話，我們沒有辦法這麼快收斂到共同感受，但是收斂之後還是要縣市長、議會、議員，這個對於預算、法律案進行實際的討論，所以他們處理的是後期的工作，也就是可行方案到下決定，我們處理的是前期的工作，也就是共同事實、共同感受的確認，這兩個銜接好的話，其實代議政治討論的品質也會提高。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "剛剛政委有提到下個月要訪問加拿大這三個城市，你當時6月也到美國紐約，你跟許多開放政府聯絡人參加工作坊，你有提到是臺灣的暖實力。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "是不是可以談一談所謂臺灣暖實力究竟如何推廣？差不多兩年以來，你也到了不少的國家，但是大家更好奇的是，因為蔡政府的兩岸政策，雖然也是跟中國不採取對抗策略，可是事實上還是處處被中國打壓，民間航空公司逼迫臺灣要改名。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "可是政委您好像在推廣臺灣暖實力，無論是參加聯合國的周邊會議或者是開放政府聯絡人的相關規劃，沒有受到打壓過？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從來沒有受到打壓過。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "大家覺得這個模式是不是可行，您之前也有跟外交部溝通過，是不是可以談談？為什麼相對而言，數位或者是網路的角度出發，為什麼看起來比較順利，這個模式是不是可以作為政府推廣的方向？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "暖實力或者是warm power，我們發現透過數位方式來促進永續發展目標滿長的，大家都記不得，後來我們就用「暖實力」三個字來當作縮寫。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後面講的是所謂永續發展目標，聯合國永續發展目標，我一天到晚穿在身上，也就是這17個顏色，2015年的時候，UNDP透過徵詢全世界上百萬人的意見，問在2030年大家想要看到什麼樣的世界，這個是全球都有參與的活動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上百萬盞天燈，大家都許願希望看到什麼樣的世界，聯合國縝密的討論之下，不只是國家代表，也包含所有受到影響的人，像所有受到氣候變遷的人，自己組成這一些所謂的「major group」去進行討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "討論之後蒐集到169項具體的指標，而這169項有兩個特色：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個是你做任何其中一個，對168個只會加強而不會犧牲，是完全互補式的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，是把傳統上我們的經濟發展，像造成一些環境破壞，參加環保團體跟當志工等等，環保團體在經濟發展會造成一些社會的對立，要做一些社會工作來消弭對立，也就是經濟、環境、社會在以前感覺上是不同部門在處理的事，即使是個人也是上班時間、下班時間及週末在處理不同的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是永續發展目標的精神是，任何好比像你是經濟的上市公司，你在做企業社會責任的時候，就是要把永續發展目標放進去，如果你是研究者，你在大學，做的時候就是要去貢獻如何同時發展經濟、社會、環境達到永續，而永續就是讓三、四代以後的子孫地球比現在好的發展方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這個是當時全世界的人都已經提過且同意過的，所以當然不會被打壓，不管是哪一個國家或者是地區的人民都想要看到這一件事發生，也都簽署過2030年的議程，因此到169項的議程裡面挑個2、3項，我去聯合國大會的時候，我在聯大期間就辦了SDG相關的論壇，臺灣特別能夠幫忙的17.18，讓民間、私部門及政府蒐集到的資料，都能夠讓彼此相信、信賴的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像17.17是很多跨部門民間先創新，政府再跟上沙盒的經驗，這個是17.17，這樣子做出來的創新，並不是像以前殖民式的，一定要開放中國家，要全部買單或不買單，而是要一起來做創新，讓他們掌握創新的能力來做人員的培力，也就是17.6開放式創新。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我只要說臺灣只要做17.18、17.17、17.6的所有人都聽過，這樣的關係，第一個是在溝通上很方便，第二個是要打壓這個，等於是打壓2015年自己簽署過要在2030年完成的事，沒有人會這樣子，所以這是基本上都沒有碰到打壓的情況。" }, { "speaker": "高遵", "speech": "歡迎繼續提問。" }, { "speaker": "蘋果日報記者", "speech": "這一些前提都是要在完整的數位建設之下，可是臺灣有非常多地區的人是沒有辦法接受到這一些資訊或者設備，如果要打的話，是要如何幫助他們？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實寬頻作為人權是我們的政策，所以不管是在東沙島或者是馬祖或者任何您剛剛講到這一種，即使是不經濟地區，你只靠付上網的費用，沒有辦法cover而基礎建設的，這一個政策就是寬頻式人權，如果不是這樣的話，確實如您所說的，很可能變成在原住民族的地區或者是山區，沒有辦法接觸到寬頻的關係，所以剛剛提到素養教育的教材、教法沒有辦法實現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像剛剛提到前瞻基礎建設像每個地方的衛生所、高中都要有這樣子的寬頻建設，即使是部落，也有數位機會的中心聚落等等的建設，所以臺灣在寬頻的可用性，也就是所謂整備率來講，這個在世界上來講是數一數二的，在寬頻人權的時候，如果連不上寬頻就是政府的錯，這個是很清楚的國家政策。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在看的並不是接取到寬頻，還包含有能力使用、有人能夠培力，而且要有人知道連上網路之後，不是只能做特定的事情，而是能夠學習新的技能等等，這個部分其實不是只有在臺灣這邊我們透過數位集會中心、大學社會責任等等的社會創新方法做，事實上我們在海外也一直在做類似的建設，這個其實是國合會最強的援外項目之外。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在今年也正式把數位治理，像農業技術、醫療技術放到外交部的援外施政方針當中。" }, { "speaker": "鏡週刊記者", "speech": "最近假新聞、假訊息在選前一直被討論，之前院長有特別提到，尤其是境外帳號的這一塊，現在政府有什麼相關機制，或者是未來有沒有相關辦法可以管控，從國安層次來講，或者是會影響到選舉或者是自由民主體制這一塊，我們有任何的想法嗎？或者是跟民間有任何的合作？針對境外的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想整個網路都是境外，網際網路本身就是一個地方，我們叫做「cyber space」的空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在上面所有看到的現象都是全球共通的現象，並不是在臺灣境內發生的，這個要先想得很清楚，有很多揣測的部分，其實我們在社會，我們看這個社會言論自由有多少，就是看大家多方便、輕鬆去揣測政府的施政，如果不能任意揣測的話，我們就說是公民社會在縮減，如果大家都可以任意揣測政府施政的話，像剛剛那一些負能量，我們也可以引進廚房來的話，這樣子就說公民社會的空間是在擴張。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "爭議訊息是全球共通的現象，而且透過網路上看到片斷資料、訊息、文字，大家就會腦補，大家腦裡都有格式塔，看到一般的東西，然後是片面補完的腦補現象。腦補很補，但當然都是錯的，意思是同一個訊息每個人會腦補到不同的情況，這個對社會的互信確實是有影響，但不是只對政府部門，而是對整個社會的互信都有影響。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此我們在這個區域，也就是CIVICUS monitor的統計，其實如果選「亞洲」，再選「完全開放」，只有臺灣而已，本來還不是這樣子的，周邊的區域慢慢的言論空間都在縮減，目前是只有臺灣在這個區域。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "並不是做得比紐、澳或者北歐來得好，當然還沒有，而是在這個區域在不威脅到言論自由核心價值的情況下去處理掉腦補、假訊息問題的方法，不然如果因為這樣一件事，讓公民社會的空間縮減，其實就是這一些攻擊者們想要看到的事情，我們不能讓他們得逞。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們要如何處理？一個是揣測時儘快揣測的朋友邀到廚房來，一起把事情講清楚，有發現各部會會在4、5個小時之內，如果民間有片面的資訊，我們會把資訊在官網上補上，如果有這樣的話，其實根本不會到假訊息，也就是刻意操作惡意訊息的攻擊空間，如果每個朋友很熟，每個禮拜約出來打球跟看電影，你看到八卦，不會再傳給別人，下次再問他就好了，但是如果三個月才見一次面，講的都是八股文，謠言就有非常多傳播的空間，這個是最基本的，也就是即時處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果沒有事實澄清的話，我們確實看到有刻意散播的假消息，這也是事實。通常他們在點對點加密的群組，像LINE，這個是因為群組的系統商自己也看不到裡面的文字，所以等於有一個好像病毒會變形成什麼株的病毒，他們在測試哪一個傳染力比較高，傳染力最後測試出一株最高的，大家就會大規模擴散，這確實也有發生的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "LINE公司的意思是點對點加密，所以看不到這一些文字，幫助得有限，只知道大家用哪一些貼圖而已，因此在這一個過程中，我們沒有辦法靠這一些電子的數位平台，我們是要靠公民社會的力量。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "到底具體力量是什麼？像LINE上面有一個機器人，並不是政府出錢、出力的，而是「真的假的」，這個目前是5萬個左右的用戶，但是重點是任何人都可以去參加、安裝，我這邊特別聲明一下，他們並沒有什麼性別歧視的問題，你重新更新的時候，就會換一個親屬人稱代名詞。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個過程中，你只要加入LINE的好友，看到別人正在測試傳染力多高的假消息時，你就有一個反射動作，其實只要這樣子問真的假的，就會把義憤填膺一定要轉傳的東西，就會覺得靜下心想一下是真的假的，這個是心理上的處理 。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "二方面是在點對點加密的群組當中，正在傳，而我們在外面都看不到的東西提早曝光，還來不及演化到有大規模傳染力的時候，我們馬上可以看到在LINE上面現在正在流行的訊息到底有哪一些，就是靠這一些使用者們去傳給「真的假的」bot。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們還是不要show太久，不然有一點精神污染。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們看到不只是假的，其實也有一些是真實的訊息，大家可以瞭解到這個事實查核的工作，其實是全民都可以參加，並不是只有專業的新聞工作者可以參加。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們的政府機關也可以學到正確的包裝，其實你的訊息也是可以正確訊息傳得比假的快，這是全民共用資料庫的工作，這是由民間的公民社群所發起，所以行政院散播一些消息，如果不盡正確的話，我們也會被獨立的公民社群去進行糾正。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像最後您所說的，最後這一步預防接種還沒有做到的話，公共衛生的角度會變成是危害力很大的變種，看到之後就會真的做一些犯罪，像恐嚇公眾、意圖使人不當選之類的，這當然有既有的法律去進行工作，但整個目的是先從開放政府SDG 16.10、16.7、16.6讓大家的互信可以重新建立，這是第一步防線。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二步，如果真的假消息已經開始在點對點加密傳播了，我們跟第三方協力，透過SDG 17.18、17.17、17.6提早曝光，先預防接種這一種東西接下來要傳播了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個部分是刑法上真的有犯罪事情的話，我們再透過法規跟技術用適當的技術去揭露犯罪的事實，這個相當於SDG 16.1，所以就好比說是像SDG 3.8、3.b、3.3 的層次。但是我們不能把這一些危害很輕微，也就是合理揣測的，一下子是變成SDG 3.3的level，因為這樣就會破壞言論自由跟互信，以上簡單說明。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "我問的是政治，政務官輔選的事情，院長有沒有要求你，或者是希望你能夠幫輔選？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從來沒有。" }, { "speaker": "同上記者", "speech": "如果有的話，您如何看待所謂網路聲量，為什麼民進黨這一次選舉的過程中，所謂的網路聲量比較差一點？國民黨的候選人反而網路聲量大一點？政委如何看待館長跟韓國瑜對談，為什麼會有700萬人才的網路聲量？是不是有所謂境外的中國網軍，政委如何看待這一件事？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "賴院長從來沒有要求，至少我沒有從他那邊接受到任何訊息進行輔選，這個是完全沒有接受到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就網路工作者的角度來看，我們理解到，就像剛剛所講的，你越片面、引人遐想，也就是腦補空間越大的訊息越流傳，因為大家可以補上自己想要補的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以在這一個過程中，其實滑手機……手機螢幕很小，只能看到十個字或者是只能看到一張圖，那個越聳動，其實裡面的真實訊息越不管，標題越聳動，大家越會轉傳，大家圍觀，大家圍觀的目的並不是很支持他的論點，而是這一件事很熱鬧或者是這一件事很鬧，在這個過程中，大家是湊熱鬧的感覺，這是網路上很常見的現象，就是所謂「鄉民圍觀」的現象，我相信大家很瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於看直播的分布，我沒有相關的數據，所以沒有辦法回答你。" }, { "speaker": "多維新聞記者", "speech": "有一個問題想要請教您，未來像公民電子投票的計畫，如果有的話，目前的進度為何？" }, { "speaker": "多維新聞記者", "speech": "第二，民間有一個項目是有關於區塊鏈結合政治獻金，想要聽聽您的想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個問題是有關於電子投票，電子投票當然分成兩種，一種還是實際投票，只是在那個投票的地方有一個電子紀錄，跟紙本紀錄是併行或者是取代，接著是在網路上進行身分驗證就投票，您問的是後面這一個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "網路投票的部分，其實我們現在在「Join」平台就已經有這樣的功能了，我們如果去「Join」平台的話，我們就可以看到其實並不是只是行政院在使用，行政院使用的時候是全國性的政策或者是每一個預算的視覺化，但是其實像審計部也正在使用，審計部做的是對所有行政機關的新作為，好比像台北市本來是用庇護工廠的方式補助身障就業，現在改成用社會企業的方式，用1元租給這一些社會企業，讓他去僱用身障者，這很容易審計，而不知道要怎麼審計部，以前監察院不知道如何審計，所以比較保守。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是現在監察院學同一個方法，可以讓民眾去參與，不是到預算制定的程度，但是可以讓民眾把疑慮提出來。疑慮提出來的話，像關於剛剛的政策，他們提出上百個疑慮，我們常常很羨慕監察院，在行政院問他們有什麼建議的時候，有二、三十個人就很高興，但監察院問大家有什麼疑慮的時候，大家就可以看到動不動有上百人，這個表示大家提疑慮是比較方便、也比較容易的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們蒐集疑慮之後就整理成九點，拿來問負責社會企業的政委——也就是我——根據這九點網友們有什麼疑慮，我們要建立什麼新的審計原則，他們就拿去審計，然後這個很棒，因為不是擋住創新，等於幫人民把關，但是又鼓勵創新，但是這裡又有一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子能夠提出來的人，如果是地方性的議題，也就是直轄縣市的話，到底要如何確定提出來的人真的是戶籍或者是工作、居住地是在這個城市，是要經過人別確認的程序，所以接下來參與式的模組或者是市政相關的模組，都會透過電子的方式，讓大家看到市府的提案、地方政府，目前看起來是測試用的，「如何進一步提升民眾搭乘公車意願」等等問題，如果市府願意的話，是可以透過人別確認的方式，限制有能力投票或有能力留言的人只能是這個區域的居民，所以這個基本上是網路投票沒有錯，但投的是事情，投的不是人，像參與式預算是哪一些事情值得先投入預算，而不是投哪一個人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以是對事、不對人，甚至包含未來會上線的是公投連署，公投連署也是對事、不對人，對事、不對人的網路投票，有些已經在進行、有一些在建置，這是我們一直在推下去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於人的部分，目前還沒有規劃，當然後面有很多原因；最重要的原因是人的話，各黨派的數學家都要非常相信開票過程，也就是大家還可以拿出手機錄影的相當公正開票要用數學的方式來說服大家，各黨派的數學家還要說服各黨派的候選人，這個是有一點困難，如果這一件事有做到，還不錯，但是現在是對事、不對人的網路投票。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，問到分散式帳本的技術，有一些朋友到office hour有跟我對談，逐字稿也在網路上，都可以看，我會後可以提供。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "分散式帳本是很好責信稽核的技術，因為我們目前是選完之後監察院再進行統計，因為政治獻金法也修了，會主動公開，但是畢竟是在選舉結束之後，但是有候選人每收到一份獻金就主動揭露在分散式帳本上也沒有辦法篡改的話，這樣的責信程度是提高的，這並不是當作虛擬通貨來使用，不是用比特幣來捐錢，而是用分散式帳本不可篡改的特性，來做一本公開的帳本，這一件事以我所知，已經有些候選人在實驗了，在未來的選舉當中，可能會看到越來越多。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "剛剛有記者詢問假新聞的議題，政委有提到在網路上可以做「真的假的」查核，曾經有境外勢力有計畫性的發動攻擊，像日本大阪的外交官很清楚，其實有很多立委都點出這次中國可以發動假新聞。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "想請問政委，除了一般網路的查核機制以外，如果我們發現確實包括有境外勢力可以發動假新聞，政府如何因應？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛我們講了一個很基本的概念，之所以有能力去組織發動您剛剛講比較像心理戰的攻勢，基礎是因為互信不足，也就是大家對於不管是對於公部門或者是人民團體間本身存在一些見縫插針的地方，所以再透過一些實地測試之後，找到一些訊息是可以把這樣的裂縫擴大。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們真正要解決的問題，並不是讓他們說網路沒有辦法連到臺灣來，是沒有辦法用這樣的方式來解決的，這樣的方式是那一次工作坊，跟臺灣民主基金會、美國國務院一起辦的工作坊最基本的想法，我們是要讓全世界都共同來促進「Media Literacy」，也就是公民的角度，如果每個人都是自媒體的角度，Youtuber的角度，我們會說是公民媒體素養，也就是各位都很熟悉新聞訊息的訓練，但是現在其實每一個Youtuber也都是媒體了，他們也要受相同的素養教育。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個聽起來是比較長遠的工作，像我們放在十二年國教課綱，明年就會把媒體素養跟識讀放在小學、中學及高中的融合教育理念，有這樣習慣的小孩及學生，才不會變成老師用特定的聲音、課本用特定的字體，每一個都有標準的答案，腦裡不會有一個後門，讓這一些訊息趁虛而入。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每個人都可以養成看到這一些事情先想一下「真的假的」的習慣，這才是民主升化的真正解決方法，所有這一些技術的解決方法都是治標，我們這個治標的方法很重要，先讓大家看到確實有這一些謠言傳播，確實有這一些在上面洗風向的朋友先讓大家知道事實，但是大家在心理能不能培養一種心理抗體的感受，這一個才是我們要努力的目標，並不是因為這樣子的關係就不讓網際網路連到臺灣，我想這個是不實際的。" }, { "speaker": "聯合報記者", "speech": "普悠瑪事故如何改善台鐵，您剛剛有提到這一些人在做的是公共政策的參與平台，但是似乎並不是每一個重要的公共政策都可以進入這個平台。" }, { "speaker": "聯合報記者", "speech": "如果想要用這個平台來改善台鐵，不知道可不可行？有沒有什麼好的建議？" }, { "speaker": "聯合報記者", "speech": "我舉一個例子，像司機的事情，大家覺得在孤獨的駕駛座當中非常辛苦，但是怎麼樣改善台鐵會對應到未來在駕駛座上如何設計，在還沒有充分討論的前提下，可能為了救急，像昨天賴院長提到配合現在普悠瑪改成雙人的駕駛，找以前退休的駕駛來補充人力，我的意思是在還沒有真正找到徹底解決的辦法之前，其實會有非常多的意見，當然行政部門也會有意見，但是行政部門也只是意見中的一點，甚至學者專家提出意見，搞不好比政府官員提出的意見更為確實可行。" }, { "speaker": "聯合報記者", "speech": "像昨天賴院長提出這樣的想法之後，其實馬上有很多不同的專家有提出不同的意見。但是賴院長的意見顯然是強大的，因為他是行政院長，他說了就可以馬上做。其他的意見，因為大家都想要根本解決台鐵的問題，但是似乎在流程上，民意沒有辦法跟行政部門的速度去相結合，我不知道政府有什麼辦法，讓民意真正結合政府，成為比較好的政策。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常好的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個是兩個問題，一個是民意到底要怎麼樣組織起來，然後在平台上進行集結，我們當然有一個規則是，如果湊到五千個人的話，就會具體來進行討論，所以有一些很重要的政策，其實都是靠這樣集結出來的，像臺灣NCAP的撞擊測試，還有很多別的，像實價登錄平台，像實坪跟其他比較像裝置性的東西要分別列，像當時育兒百寶箱也是透過這一個平台，這個平台就可以看到扮演剎車、油門、方向盤及離合器的作用，事實上是有作用的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是您剛剛講的是有的時候政府自己決定一個計畫，而這個計畫在做了之後，大家才發現有一些需要改進的部分，而這個在平台上並不是連署，並不是在「來監督」的位置，而「來監督」的地方，我剛剛遊說每一個部會，目前1,379個計畫都在上面，任何人都可以直接提出意見，這裡就不需要湊出五千人，政府在執行了，任何一個學者、專家來這邊提，我們就可以讓具體的事務官在上面進行討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩個部分我們從公共行政的角度來看，一個是政府還沒有確定要做什麼，由民間來設定議程，一個是政府已經在做了，由民間來調整方法，您很在意的是把這兩個中間縮短，也許政府做一個東西，大家覺得不妥或者要建議的部分，是不是可以快速一個月內、兩個月內進行滾動式的修正，而不是編進年動計畫，而政府一年才轉一次方向，我聽您的意思是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是非常好的建議，像目前開放政府的review是每一個月進行一次，也許一些突發事件、新事件，未來採取比較像隨到隨辦的方式來處理，這個要跟各部會開放政府聯絡人討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我覺得在國家政策，也就是全國的情況下，這一個節奏再快還是有一個極限，像法規的預告也是要給大家六十天的時間，去充分表示各方的意見，才可以轉向，所以六十天很可能是最短的迭代週期，但是如果是在地方的話，甚至可以以週為週期來迭代，這個是可行的方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前賴院長在台南市的時候，因為跟議會有一定時間、有特殊的關係，所以是用公民論壇的方式，以實際為週的方式去進行政策討論與改變，像這樣子巡迴的做法，我們在社會創新、產業創新、長照都有做過行為式的討論，這樣是加快週期的方法，但是我說這個在地方縣市的成本比較低、全國的成本比較高，所以在地方縣市用什麼方法就採用到方法來，但是創新的方式是比地方還要快的。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "我還是很冒昧要問政治的問題，今年的選舉選戰，網路戰還是一個最重要的部分，也就是所謂的空戰，有人甚至講說今年選舉的戰役，幾乎都是在手機上就打完仗了，假設網路聲浪很高的候選人，的確到後來真的都是當選了，未來就是一種趨勢。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "政委作為網路或者是這方面的政委，未來是不是一種趨勢，又或者是這個可以減省很多成本，您的看法是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "網路傳播不只是片面資訊，也可以傳播完整的資訊，他們也有來社創中心，我也有給一些想法，但是完全是民間自主成立的的投票指南網站，很推薦大家上去看「http://councils.g0v.tw/」，不只是把所有的縣市長所謂的從政履歷、縣市議員、公投及候選人，還有以前他們自己的提案、表決紀錄及大家對於候選人的想法等等，這一些都是實際在這一個上面去進行討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "舉例來講：像我自己的選區是「北部、新北市、第8選區」，會一次列出所有的候選人，我有提到並不是特別用什麼方式排序，就跟剛剛cofact一樣，每一次重新整理的時候，每一次的排序都不一樣，而且顏色也是隨機的，所以比較不會有大黨跟小黨，又或者是姓名、筆劃比較少的朋友們等等排序上的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個有什麼好處？這個好處是如果之前曾經從政過的話，任何人都可以去看他的政治履歷政，什麼是政治履歷？只要有公職，有表決、發言的這一些紀錄，到底有哪一些案，哪一些是改善交通，哪一些是土城交流道的車流、水土保育的開發、全文、連署及下標，不管是建議配合款或是之前競選時曾經收過的東西，都會全部如實在網站上揭露。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣您剛剛提到省時間，真的是很省，因為不用特別去七個不同政府的網站上去找資訊，而是像拼圖一樣放在網站上，而是每一個人看自己選區互動式的公報，也可以用互動式的公報看在意的議題、政見是什麼，還有跟之前從政投票的紀錄，當年承諾什麼、在議會是不是這樣投票或者是提案，一下子可以很清楚看到，看完之後就可以快速做出投票相關的決策。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我當然覺得網路對於民主相當重要，但是讓事實傳播比謠言快，這個是很多社群朋友正在努力的工作，也希望大家多跟他們合作。" }, { "speaker": "高遵", "speech": "我們座談已經70分鐘了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有沒有什麼問題？" }, { "speaker": "自由時報記者", "speech": "其實大家公認您是網路高手或者奇才，行政院經常飽受假新聞之苦，大家都在提澄清新聞專區，但是還是沒有達到預期的效果，總統府秘書長陳菊曾經有提過民進黨在這一次網路戰很辛苦，因為國民黨在網路的攻勢，今年非常凌厲，行政院打得很辛苦。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "院的立場很簡單，不要自己造謠，第二個是如果有一些片面訊息的話，我們快速澄清，這個是不變的立場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "快速澄清剛剛講公開、快速、結構化，這個大概都是一年多前就很明確提出的，事實上當時有一個很明確的網頁去解釋這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在到選舉期間，其實全世界的民主國家都在選罷法裡面，特別去把意圖當選、不當選去做特別的規範，因為我們不管再怎麼講言論自由的東西，都是建立在大家公民社會民主機制正當運作的基礎上，如果這個是破壞民主機制本身的，像傳染病防治法裡面破壞掉衛生的，這個基礎如果都不存的話，上面的言論自由是不談的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一年多來主要的工作很多都是在破壞整個基礎的這一些行為去讓他剛剛講快速發現、揭露，甚至快速用技術跟司法的方式去進行處理，但是如果不是破壞這個基礎的行為，而真的只是一些個人的想法、揣測的話，那個是非常重要的，言論自由的紅線是不能踩，像各位是新聞工作者，各位也可以做一些揣測，只要這一些揣測，各位在手上的證據有一定的程度，覺得這個是合理的懷疑，這樣政府當然不應該去說各位在做的是所謂的「假新聞」，我不會用這三個字，因為我父母都是新聞工作者，因此我覺得「假新聞」對新聞工作者是很不當的連結。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是我們對於揣測是叫做「爭議訊息」，對於刻意、蓄意、有規模、有危害的所謂「惡、假、害」都滿足還是叫做「假消息」，主要是不希望把這個跟新聞工作者的社會地位聯想在一起，這個也是非常重要的，希望各位報導這一次的時候，不要用「假新聞」這三個字，誠摯地呼籲大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後面是如果現在從行政院的角度來看，對於施政透過即時澄清，我們承認不一定做到百分之百，但是至少比較相信，你在早上聽到謠言，等到中午，行政院有一套說法出來，做到這個程度，但是這個與選戰並不是同一回事，不管有沒有選舉都會做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於在選舉的部分，因為我沒有黨派、也沒有參與選舉，當時大家都知道有人找我去選舉，但是我沒有答應，所以我在這當中並沒有太多貢獻的部分，主要是在行政院透過開放政府的方式去建立大家的互信。" }, { "speaker": "中國時報記者", "speech": "在座比較尾聲的時候，我想要問一下，昨天金庸過世了，對於很多人來講武俠小說迷都會有關注，也算是時代的印記。" }, { "speaker": "中國時報記者", "speech": "不曉得政委之前有沒有看武俠小說，有的話，對哪一部作品比較有興趣？如果是有大師的作品是不是可以跟我們講一下，喜歡的理由是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我記得剛識字不久的時候，很小的時候，我外公家裡有一整套最早還是白色版本的金庸，幾乎幾乎是一識字就開始看，因為我外公是武俠小說迷，全套都有看，當然後來二版、新修版都有在追，確實是書迷。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我外公今年超過100歲了，我每個月去淡水看他，還是會聊到武俠小說那個是他的愛好，家族都有看金庸。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己印象比較深刻的是，可能小時候我好像先看的是「倚天屠龍記」，這個是第一部看，應該是二十四章吧！「太極初傳柔克剛」是張三丰在閉關研究一年半之後做了一個發明，就是太極拳、太極劍的發明，而這個發明雖然是有一些緊急事故的發生，但是關心的還是研究工作與教育工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我裡面印象比較深刻的是，當他用太極劍去教張無忌的時候，張無忌的對手好像叫方東白，想說他本身是對手，就不要去看張三丰去傳授張無忌太極劍的道理，但是張三丰說：「不是，您也是劍術名家，我們剛有一個新的研究發明，大家一起切磋。」把新的武學理論，大家都可以進行創發，我想這是開放式創新，完全不怕張無忌的的對手學到整套太極劍。對他來講，這個太極的精神、「用意不用力」的精神能夠傳下去，比比武的勝敗要來得重要。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想張三丰老師在我很小的時候就對我有很深的影響，當然因為我母親也是學太極，也在教太極，所以我覺得這對我幼年的成長都有相當多的實際影響。" }, { "speaker": "高遵", "speech": "各位媒體還有提問嗎？從開放政府到武俠世界都談了，政委有沒有什麼話想要跟大家談？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後講「暖實力」的時候，也幫忙大家把永續發展目標的想法，不只是接下來CSR、USR、社會企業相關的登記，都會用這17項聯合國永續發展目標朝向這樣的索引，我們在外交上也會把臺灣所有這一些貢獻跟全世界做這一些工作的朋友們去進行對齊，所以各位之後會看到很多像社創中心週年慶等等的活動，都會出現這17個目標跟小icon，希望大家持續關注永續發展目標的議題，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "As a Belgian, chocolate is a serious matter for us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. This one is a little bit jumpy, and this one is more regular." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What does jumpy mean? Spicy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s bubbling." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Bubbling?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Bubbling in your mouth." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’ll have to try this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Thanks for taking the time. I had a chance to spend some time with Billy today and Fang-Jui and Shuyang before, so I feel very privileged. Maybe with you, I had a number of broader questions. I feel when we look at the whole toolbox of participatory democracy that the whole..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The civic tech toolbox, the OGP toolbox." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...that the beginning of the process initiation, the agenda setting is the piece where I feel that we’re the furthest away from cracking it. When you look around the world, how can ordinary citizens bring up the topic either today to parliament or to participating democracy processes like vTaiwan? The default mechanism is people gathering signatures, like e-petitions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one, but they can also attend our weekly Wednesday meetings and bring their cases or when I tour around Taiwan every other Tuesday, they can also bring it then. Personally, there’s three channels to reach me." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The difficulty I find with all of these is the number of concerns that citizens can have is huge, right, the number of potential topics that they can bring. I find that we haven’t found a powerful way yet to filter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Sustainable Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Sorry?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Sustainable Development Goals. The UNDP collected literally a million voices. As you said, they’re already placed. The UN has sorted them out into 169 concrete topic areas and grouped them into 17, which is how we are sorting things now. It’s very rare that a citizen-initiated agenda falls entirely out of the SDGs spectrum. They don’t often happen." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The resources that we have to treat projects..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Wow, this chocolate is really bubbly. This is funny." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I warned you." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The resources we have to address problems are limited, like a parliament can only take on so many bills in a year. vTaiwan, my understanding is right now you can take on..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "About 30 cases." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You can take on five, six, seven cases a year or something. Very quickly, you have to filter and decide. \"We can take on this, but sorry, we’re...\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. We can export this model." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can export this model. There’s other forums, vTaiwan-like forums, to tackle this kind of multi-stakeholder issues. vTaiwan is not the only forum for multi-stakeholder discussion. For example, for regional revitalization, there’s a forum. For the national culture strategy, there’s another forum. Billy maybe told you about the justice reform forum and so on." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I hear you, but it sounds like you’re pointing to the fact that we would have unlimited capacity, which is not true, right? At some point, we need to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why is it not true? We do have unlimited capacity." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "How many people in each of these forums are available? What’s the capacity of volunteers, or of paid people, or of the PDIS people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hmm... I don’t quite follow your line of thought." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The reason why in petitions you ask..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Set a threshold?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...you set a threshold is because you say, \"Hey, we have limited capacity. We set a threshold because we feel that if you get so many signatures, it must mean it’s more important than...\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s not quite that. I think we set a threshold mostly because we want to have a diverse reach of stakeholder groups. If it’s just two people petitioning, there’s no guarantee that there will be sufficient sides in a matter when we invite people to join the discussion either on or offline." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there’s 5,000 people and they raise a lot of social awareness, both on the pro column and the con column there’s hundreds of people. We can be reasonably sure when we send our invitation there’ll be people from all walks of life that we can actually invite to the table. That is the real reason why we set a threshold." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The experience that we see... I don’t know if Taiwan..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is no limitation of how many e-petitions can reach the threshold every year. If it is a throughput problem, as you put it, then we will cap the number of e-petitions that reach the threshold every month or so, but there is no such threshold." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The reason I’m curious about this is that what you see in the US, where you have a number of states where people can petition to have things go to a referendum, is that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no limit of referendum amount by yearly election closed referendum as well. This year, we’re going to have 10. Maybe the next year, we’ll have 20." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What you find is that the signatures, it ends up not being a very democratic model at all because, basically, you can manufacture signatures. If you have enough money..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You basically pay outfits. What you notice is that measures that get on the ballot are measures that are funded often by special interests in the US. It ends up not being a very democratic process because a few people on their own are able to reach the kind of thresholds that are often set. I’m just curious about how we can crack that problem of how do we prioritize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why is it a problem that people pay other people to sign?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Why is it a problem?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, why is it a problem? What’s wrong with it?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "[laughs] People who have the means to do that can get their agenda presented on the ballot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the same with people who can provoke social outrage or can run demonstrations. It’s different power, but it’s still power. You’re basically saying people with power can gather more people, but that’s, of course, how organizations has always worked and social movement has always worked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can be incentivized by kinship. They can be incentivized by outrage. They can be incentivized by money. To me, it’s all the same. It’s just engagement strategies." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "To me, it has a big difference if it’s money or if it’s emotional engagement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would like to know more about this line of thinking. If we’re saying money buys the actual decisions, of course, that may be a problem. What we’re now saying is only collecting signatures to show the importance or the priority. It’s just that agenda-setting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "During the agenda discussion, of course, it’s not using money to buy voices, but just raising the people’s awareness of the agenda. If you buy a full-page advertisement on a major newspaper, you’re going to get enough petitions. That is one direct way to translate money into social awareness. What I’m saying is this is how media has always worked, and I don’t know what’s wrong with that." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Maybe your threshold is set differently at 5,000 voices already, but what you find in a lot of US states is that you actually need to do very expensive door-to-door canvassing. These things are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe, in some states, the threshold is too high." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can see that. That’s always because it’s paper signatures, no?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not electronic signatures. In our e-petition, it’s electronic signatures. Even for people who have a lot of money, of course, they can buy Google or Facebook advertisements, but their money is not significantly more useful than people who already have a lot of followers on social media, which is why I don’t see this as a problem. We are essentially e-signatures." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m interested in this concept of capacity. The problem with traditional parliamentary..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Decision-making." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...structure and decision-making is that is limited just by the number of people that you have in parliament and then by the political agenda..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By your time." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...and by the time. You know that if whatever the exact total, the president has this project and there’s only so many other things that you can do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every year, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There’s a huge power struggle on what actually makes it onto the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The national agenda, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "One of the promises of participatory democracy that we rarely talk about is the potential for de-bottlenecking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For scaling out the decision-making, essentially." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There’s fundamentally no limit to, \"Here’s a problem. Who are the right stakeholders? Let’s get them around the table.\" Because they’re stakeholders, they should be interested." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Adhocracy." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Exactly. I’m curious how you think about capacity and scaling. Right now, I’m most familiar with vTaiwan. You were mentioning you have other forums and regional..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s hundreds of forums, vTaiwan one of it." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is one of them. How do you think about that question of scalability? For instance, my understanding is in vTaiwan, a lot depends on the capacity of people from g0v to show up, from the ministries to show up, from leaders to show up. How do you think about scaling that? Is that a concern for you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all. We published the entire methodology. I think we’re one of the most well-documented methodologies around. Like last week, g0v Italy just started with budget visualization and the whole thing. We are going to train people in Toronto next week to do the same thing as Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s evidently scaling horizontally. I’m sure people in NYC or Toronto doesn’t need to ask for our permission to run their meetings. It’s clear that we’re scaling out pretty well. These processes, once it’s well-documented, can be replicated." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Specifically, here in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t really care about how Taiwan [laughs] works or not with this methodology. In my view, the regional vitalization or devolution -- I think that’s the English term -- is much more important. All I care about is, for example, Tainan City a few weeks ago just installed their own PDIS-like PO network for Tainan City municipal matters." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just today, one of the candidates running for Ilan County mayor is promising the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If every county and even township has these processes, then there’s no need for vTaiwan to intervene on a national scale. Most of the issues that people raised and the stakeholders are domestic and local anyway. Taiwan doesn’t need that many parliamentary laws or decisions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, in our recent vTaiwan discussions, very rarely do we actually reach the parliamentary level. We find if it’s a regulatory recommendation or if the civil society and the private sector can coordinate on some action, then the issue resolve itself. We don’t need to go to the parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In vTaiwan, less than 20 percent reach the parliament. Mostly it’s regulatory level. I think devolution is clearly the way to go." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Another question that I had pop up for me is that there is real power in the role of the facilitators, people who shepherd cases through the processes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The pre-meetings, the agenda-setting processes." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The agenda-setting, the stakeholder identification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There’s lots of these small decisions that, in the end, become important. There seems to be a level of trust that you’ve been able to achieve. It could be very easy for people who dislike the process to start to doubt the neutrality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they doubt, we just invite them to join." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious about that. Can you say more about it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the pre-meetings are there so that people can look at the transcripts and the records of the weekly meetings. People care about the process. There’s many people who care about how the questionnaires are set, how we reach the number of stakeholders, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s a open community, anyone can just type on Hackpad, on Slack, or whatever, and basically amend the process. There’s nothing to subtract from and everything to add to. Because of that, we don’t hear that much about total neutrality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We believe more in a plurality in the sense that people who care or people who think that they can find other people who care can always intervene in the process. Nothing here is at referendum-style power binding level. Everything here is on collecting collective feelings and collective facts. In this level, everybody has something to add." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It’s a combination of openness, that transparency about what’s happening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And us being in the first diamond in the design-thinking terms." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Another topic I was curious about is, if I understood you well in some of the interviews that I watched, at the end, you’re aiming for a rough consensus that goes to some specifications that then get translated into legalese." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The rough consensus, if need to be, sometimes translated to algorithms. Sometimes, it’s just translated to visualization or data. It’s not always legalese, but yes." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious about that because traditionally people view consensus as potentially problematic in the sense that it gives you veto power. If one of the stakeholders..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine consensus." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s called fine consensus or perfect consensus. What we call rough consensus in Internet governance is more like consent in plain English. It’s, \"I can live with it.\" It’s this kind of consensus." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m just curious if you’ve had cases...I could imagine that some stakeholders in the Uber case, Airbnb case, and whatever, could want to use their power to block that thing because they feel that the status quo is better for them than any new thing. They feel that if this breaks down, they have better access to the parliament to get their..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Has it happen, like people just said..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, Airbnb sent an email to all their members, calling them to..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I remember that story." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Of course, that happened, but it always turns out not to be the case they want because the space is designed so that each individual has more degrees of freedom, compared to traditional surveys." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each individual are given more agency than the traditional mobilizers imagine. With time, people have started to discover that we’re really after common values. If there’s no common value, we don’t push things forward. If there’s a very, very rough consensus, we only act on those that we have very, very rough consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t force consensus with this process, which is why people generally see this as complimentary if not reinforcing the old power model." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m trying to think ahead. The old power model, used the setting up as a dichotomy where we can play nice and if it’s not working, then..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not working." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...the old power model needs to handle it, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just that, but rather the cases that’s brought to vTaiwan are generally cases that the old power model has no idea how to do anyway. Might as well try. It’s more experimental. In the e-petition, similarly. Things that are brought to my purview are cross-ministerial in nature or at least cross-agency in nature." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, no agency or ministry want to own it completely, mostly because there’s a structural coordination problem involved. If they think they can’t handle it on the silo model, I don’t even see it because I work by voluntary association." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Another question I have is that a lot of the people who come and participate in democracy are from the facilitation angle. All the people who come from the tech angle, there’s the more traditional facilitation and university professors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and also public administration. There’s many different..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "A lot of these people are in love with the sortation model." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, because it’s more binding." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "In your case, I think because you come from ministries or the relation, you come at it from a stakeholder perspective." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. I think it’s because Taiwan doesn’t have a jury system. We have no experience with sortation whatsoever. There’s no native culture for it. We’re now considering to install a jury system. It’s still in early planning stages." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You mean in the penal..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, in the Justice Department." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. If the judicial process has more jury system involved, then people has this natural tendency of understanding why sortation works in a binding way or semi-binding way at least. There’s no day-to-day process that involve anything like jury, not even in school, so people don’t have this culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is just because of this that we are not connecting to the sortation. Otherwise, theoretically, after the first diamond, the second diamond is best handled with sortation. We don’t have this culture here. Maybe in another generation, we will." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Can you expend on first and second diamond? I’m just curious." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. In design thinking, the first diamond consists of discovering the problem. People are putting their personal experience, their gripes, facts, whatever, evidences. It’s the first time it converges by people deciding on what is the common value around which to share a how might we question. How might we make something better? The theory of change." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people converge here, it’s a rough consensus because people generally agree that whatever gripe, we have is better solved if we reach this goal. It’s sustainable. It doesn’t say anything about how to reach it. It’s a barrier endpoint." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, the second diamond is about testing various different way to solve the problem. It’s a iteration of quick prototyping and testing. Then, the second diamond finally converges on a decision that we can scale out to everybody because people are reasonably sure that this is a good solution. That’s standard design thinking." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "How did you map sortation or stakeholder on diamond...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ideally, of course, the first people who have gripes about this are naturalistic holders. They’re closest to the pain. It’s obviously stakeholder based, especially the initial agenda setting that we need to talk about this. Yes, almost always stakeholder based." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, of course, this convergence needs facilitation the whole time. Once it’s reached the how might we question, then, of course, it impacts everybody, not just the stakeholders. Maybe all the stakeholder agree this is a great solution, but it would create negative externalities on everybody else." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By this point, everybody else need to be in. Other than sortation, of course, you can say parliamentarians or city council, whatever, stand for the people. They need to evaluate so that while the stakeholders all agree this is ideal, the citizens is going to pay tax that is five times the current tax rate for this to happen. Obviously, we’re not going to let that happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the second diamond, what is needed is for the experts, as well as citizens of non-stakeholders to join and to collectively evaluate the feasible solutions that doesn’t leave anyone behind that are essentially pareto improvements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the second diamond’s diverge stage. On the final converge stage, we need to make a choice of what to do collectively. Of course, we can have a referendum. We can have a vote. We can have sortation." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious, if as part of your stakeholders, you have citizen, let’s think in the Uber case, you have just a general population that was present." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mostly, is a mobilization problem. They don’t actually care about it, so why are they going to join? Then, that’s where jury duty comes. If people don’t see jury as a duty, we don’t have a easy way to convince people." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Makes sense. I think that’s the part where we could de-bottleneck our current parliamentarian system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I totally agree." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Get rid of all of the negative externalities of vote and politics and polarization." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I totally agree." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "A question for me here is how will the population at large become comfortable with sortation and the legitimacy of it, even though now we have decades of experience that show that ordinary citizens with the right facilitation can deliberate in a way that’s often way better than parliaments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Citizens councils, citizens assembly." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "All of these different forms that exist. The standard reaction to almost everybody is, \"Are you kidding me? What’s the legitimacy? I didn’t vote for them. Two, I don’t trust them.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re not going to come back to the community and convince everybody else. That’s the main problem. Yeah. The difference between big data and statistics is that here is a sample and here is everybody. If we can create a sortation method that involves practically everybody, so that everybody is automatically sorted, then, that stops the legitimacy problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, that actually happened in the Tainan City. Not me, one of my acquaintances run the case of citizen deliberation of the Fei-yan village reconstruction project, where the interest of renovation and protection of archeological artifacts and environment are in three different charges." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They involve hundreds of people. In that village, there’s exactly 100 people, so it’s not a sortation. On that scale, it obviously works and the legitimacy is complete." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yeah. At the larger scale we need to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Work on virtual reality, yeah. We need to enable thousands of people to be in the same place and talk to each other." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Then, you stumble upon another issue, which is self-selection versus random sortation, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s literally everybody." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "But there’s only so many people who are interested or willing or capable of showing up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t have to show up... They can just click on a YouTube link." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What I mean is deliberation takes time. The reason you have jury duty is that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deliberation takes time, but it could begin with spare time. It could be a lot of two-minute engagements. It doesn’t have to be two-day. It could be two-day split into a lot of two-minute engagements. People just participate for fun essentially." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The way they do in pol.is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pol.is is one way, it’s a very crude early version of it. Ideally, of course, yeah, people just participate in their spare time." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Maybe it’s because this is too early and we are not there technologically or even in our mindsets. I haven’t come across anything that makes me believe that, at some point, it is actual people being together through virtual reality and actually spending their time of getting to know one another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Deeply listening to one another." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Deeply listening, deeply understanding your perspective. No two-minute increments allow me to have that bond of seeing you, trusting you, starting to see you in a new light, hearing what is the story behind the story that makes you view that world, that starts to make me question my certainties." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying that the two-minute engagement is a substitute for that. I’m saying two-minute engagements lead to two-hour engagement, lead to two-day engagements. It’s a gateway drug." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once we have sufficient amount of gateways, then people can participate with whatever modality they feel like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying that the entire city, everybody donating two minutes will replicate the consensus. What I’m saying is, in every city, if people have it as part of their education system and so on, have the spare time participation idea then, just like Wikipedia." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A lot of students, they just spend two minutes fixing one typo on Wikipedia, but when there is a regional weekly people meet up, they actually show up and do the in-depth thing. We talk about running a center of Wiki art, Wiki museum, Wiki local history, or whatever initiatives. Without the initial two-minute engagement then they won’t show up." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yeah. I’m curious about this constraint that you currently have and vTaiwan, that the topics have to be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Emergent." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Emergent and broadly linked to netizens, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You obviously want people about whom the process is going to be making to be able to access it, and people who aren’t easily online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The constrain is there is, because there’s no ministry owning cyberspace. We’re in the creative space, as I said. No ministry could say, \"Our old way works,\" because there’s no \"old way\" for it." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious how you see that evolving. Is it just a matter of time that we have to wait until everybody is a digital native, and at that point...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s my thought, yes. Maybe another generation or two." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Of course, there’s ways that we can try to involve people who are offline, but it’s so much more costly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we can bring tech to them. That’s what I do in the Social Innovation Lab. As you said, it’s mostly a modality thing. When people are as comfortable as they are currently with their phones with mixed reality for example, then they don’t have to be constrained on small screens and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s going to happen real soon, now. Personally, I live in that world, but well, the future is not evenly distributed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We still have to wait a generation or two, but I’m very optimistic about it. I think it’s just a matter of time." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious. We live in this age of hyperpolarization. I live in the US." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Perceived hyperpolarization, but yes." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Perceived, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People actually have a lot in common, but it’s just perceived differently." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Of course, but the way the media frames it... Also, in a very real sense, a growing number of people really wrapped in their identity around I am Republican. I am liberal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I take all the sides, so I understand that." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What you see is that when you have deep deliberative spaces, these things tend to break down, because then suddenly I see..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...rooms for \"conservative anarchists.\"" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious. Do we have examples here of processes where there was really a very strong polarization? We mentioned breakthrough. Uber in some ways was polarized." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In our e-petition, there was people petitioning for Taiwan to change the time zone to the same as Japan, to UTC+9." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Billy mentioned that survey to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s polarization right there." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s a very charged topic, very divisive, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very charged topic. We resolved that really, really well." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Can share more about that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. It’s one of the cases that Billy, when he first joined, handled. We went through all the arguments, both sides, about how daylight saving or changing one hour of time saves energy, increased tourism, increased stock trade, boosts economy, whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then all the ministries went and provided scientific evidence that it doesn’t actually save energy, it doesn’t increase tourism unless you want to overwork people, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People were genuinely surprised that with 16,000 people petitioning pro and con, the ministry are really willing to dedicate a lot of time and effort to make it clearly understandable how exactly changing one hour in time zone will inflict on the society a large, one-time cost, and a not trivial recurring cost. It’s all evidence-based. People are really surprised that we take them so seriously." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that once we invite people to meet face-to-face is that the walls start to break down. Even the petitioners from both sides, of course, disagree vehemently about the time zone, they all agree that Taiwan needs to be seen as more unique in the world. That is the common value that everybody can understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After tallying the actual one-time cost, everybody agreed -- and it’s a strong consensus -- that the PRC can just say Hong Kong has its own currency. There’s many countries with different time zones. It doesn’t really make Taiwan independent. Maybe we’ll get 15 minutes of CNN coverage and everybody forgets about it, and we have to pay recurring costs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not a good idea. The common value is a good value. This shows that agenda-setting power is different from the final policy-making power. It’s important for everybody to show that uniqueness of Taiwan around the world is important to everybody, but it’s a bad idea if we say, \"We make a compromise,\" and change the time zone by half an hour." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody agree, if we’re going to pay this cost, we maybe better off to channel it into making more a cultural export of Taiwan, making Taiwan the image of sustainable goals or open government that are distinct from PRC. We can spread the message and so on. All the ministries are very willing to provide such brainstorming ideas, which then we send to all the 16,000 people in petition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the concrete case of the walls breaking between the people who are strongly for symbolic Taiwan independence and people who are not." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "To me, it sounds like a particularly beautiful example, because this is exactly the sort of headline-grabbing topic that in traditional politics gets misused." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and gets polarized over time." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Get polarized over time, and then one politician sees this advantage to play this out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. People that they can turn into voters." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It’s a particularly beautiful example of how this..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Reconcile the sides." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Can you quickly share with me what the actual process was? What platforms did you use?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Billy wrote it up. You can check it out in the PDIS website. There’s a blog about it. Do I have your email? I think I do." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You have my email." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can email you that link to the blog." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Otherwise, I can just translate the page with Google Translate and then I can find the blog." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, we have an English page. We pre-Google Translate that for you. This is the one. If you change the URL from \"zh-TW\" to \"en\", we can actually see the English page, I hope. Yay, that’s right. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the complete picture, including the time, the petition, the counter-petition, the ministries, the actual mind map that we use to map the actual slides of how one hour of energy use and so on changes, and how the key core issues lifted this up into about not the fake issue, but the real issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We signify the difference. Then basically, their understanding is that the supporters said if we just focus on the GMT, they will leave early because it’s a waste of time. Actually, because they can convince the other side that it is how to improve international visibility, he is very satisfied with it because he can get through to the counter-petitioners with this methodology. Then this is how it actually looks like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can send you this link. It’s Creative Commons anyway." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It sounds like there was a whole part of data gathering from the ministries and then feeding that to participants." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There’s a whole online part before, then people gathered." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. There’s several pre-meetings, and using the so-called issue mapping technology. Fang-Jui invented this methodology by adapting the Open Policymaking process into the Taiwan administration. You should talk to her about exactly what steps she went through." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "This is a very different process than the discourse pol.is process that you use in vTaiwan, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. There’s no pol.is in this petition, because we don’t see the value of using pol.is. In other cases, we use pol.is for the e-petition also, normally, when people have so many diverse views that we cannot reasonably read through all of them. In this case, the pro and con have maybe only five core arguments each." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Where do you see all this going?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everywhere, virtually all over the planet." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I was more thinking in terms of depth than breadth. Hopefully, people get more comfortable. People get more experienced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. We have civics teachers telling their senior high school students to try to find a case where they can find 5,000 signatures as their civics homework. A girl -- 15-year old -- actually found one to ban the use of plastic straws, which will choke the sea turtles." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That directly led to our plastic straw ban on indoor taking of the bubble tea. People are now using stainless steel straws or other receptacles." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There was a ban here in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, there’s a ban here. That is the outcome where we see the petitioner leading the 5,000 people, which is just a small girl, 15 years old, and says, \"This is my homework in my civics class.\" We know that we’re scaling people. It’s not just scaling votes. This is part of education now. The next generation will take care of the direction. I’m 37. I’m really old now." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You’re retired anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. The people who are 17, the people who are 15 by year 2030 when everybody will be digitally literate, and there will be one analog minister..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Without portfolio." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without portfolio, that’s right, to talk to, I’m sure, animals and rivers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By then, the young people will figure out a way." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What do you see is the future for you? How dependent is this, right now in Taiwan, of you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all. The Tainan City, the Yilan County, perhaps, they just run off with it. They don’t need me. The devolution, the municipalities, the regional revitalization, none of this is dependent on me. I’m most just a spokesperson, I think, for the drastic innovation that Taiwan is having in the first few years since the Occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Truth be told, I’m not involved in any operational things now. I’m copied. Of course, I read the transcripts. I bring them to the Premier, but people just run it themselves, and they run it without even letting PDIS know. We have all these national forums that PDIS has no idea about. People read about our work, about our transcripts and replicate it." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It has reached a cultural soil that is ready enough?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, exactly. In Taiwan, 23 million people, 5 million use the participation platform already. One quarter of the population. Maybe in the next year or two after the devolution plan happens, we will reach easily 10 million people. Once that happens, people just use it in their school, in their regional community. It’s actually easier. If you only have 400 people, you don’t need sortation." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That begs the question of what makes that the soil here...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is so ripe." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is so ripe, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Because we have no republican tradition. This is literally the first generation that can do democracy." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It comes completely fresh." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. You see there was Estonia also." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Probably in Estonia and here also, a sense of urgency or a sense of threat." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of being in the frontline. We have to be really different. It is true." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Because there’s a big monster already." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, they’re also innovating. In a very different track, of course, but there’s real innovation going on there, too." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The surveillance state." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you ignore the human rights, of course you can do a lot medical research. This is true. I’m not saying that this is justifiable by any means, but it is innovative too, and they are really moving quickly toward their own social goals. Of course, I’m not a minister there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, I think when we see Taiwan in, for example, in the CIVICUS Monitor, the only place regionally that has an expanding civil society, whereas everywhere else, it’s shrinking or stagnant. I think it’s part of our national identity to innovate on democracy, because nobody else in this area is doing it." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There must have been probably the catalyst thing with the Sunflower Movement, just the breakdown of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. It’s a collective wake-up call, because if we don’t innovate, we just become a province of the PRC. Also, that people realize it’s cool for teenagers to talk about politics. Before Sunflower, it’s not at all popular. People are seen as fringe if they talk about politics. Now it’s very hip." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I was curious. On the plane here, I read the Wikipedia article on the Sunflower Movement. On the Wikipedia article, they didn’t talk at all about the deliberation that happened inside the Parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, or outside on the street." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The only thing they’ve described, it’s simply a student protest and just a negotiation between..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They did mention the final six points of consensus that’s agreed by public and parliament. They doubled down. They mention the final..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is that somewhat documented? I’ve heard you talk about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is indeed documented. If you search for deliberation on the street, there is the D-Street project. Actually, after the Occupy, the anti 4th nuclear plant people did another deliberation on the street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of 20 NGOs or so, it’s all preserved in the...I think there’s a history project at public.318.io. We digitally archive almost everything. You can see all the documents that people used. pamphlets printed, media documentary, graphics, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They hack folder, this to share bookmark and the links to individual transcripts I think is also archived in the g0v Hackpad. You can talk to these people if you want a reconstruction of what actually happened, and exactly which people wrote what and said what where." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Can you give me the two-minute summary of deliberations?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. Around the Occupy Parliament, there’s 20 NGOs or so, each occupying one corner in the street. Almost everything is live-streamed. It’s like bees and flowers. They cross-pollinate, because each NGO talk about one aspect of CSSTA." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this cross-pollination, our work as the communication task force, so to speak, is to archive everything that people talk about. When that happens, more people than people on the street look through those points and make pro and con comparisons, and to link the threads of every day’s discussions and publish it with social media analytics. It’s all on our hack folder anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of each day, the general media reports about what kind of issues are deliberated on that day, what kind of topics are explored. On the morning of the Occupy Parliament, the students who occupied read about the things that’s discussed yesterday and what has remained to be resolved on that day." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Was some of that relayed by mainstream media, or was that purely...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I think it’s all civic media. If you look at the e-forum, they report some of those conversations. The e-forum is seen as a neutral media because it’s run by students. The head of the e-forum, Sheau-Tyng Peng now also works in our office." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The cycle was that during the day, there’s deliberation outside of the parliament..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On whatever aspect each NGO cares about, and everything is archived." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Civic media..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The civic media synthesized it." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Synthesized it, and the students just covered." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "They bring that into the deliberation inside." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is exactly right. Maybe they don’t deliberate on that inside, but rather they read it out to the broadcasting and to the mainstream media. There’s some tension, of course, because there’s some NGOs who feel excluded from the students’ main agenda, which is about due process, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even those NGOs generally are aware that this cross-pollination helps their cause being brought into general political awareness, even though it’s not included in our Occupy. Generally, it’s ostensibly about CSSTA, but for some, it’s a stretch. Even in those cases, the NGOs will come to stage and the fact that their deliberations are recorded." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Did the students inside deliberate, or what?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, they also do. They also do, but in a different way. I don’t want that. I help livestream that. If you want to know what the inside deliberation looks like, different people will give you very different accounts. The people who facilitate the in-parliament deliberations, such as En-En Hsu and Chia-Hua Lu, are easily reachable." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Because I have a sense from listening to you talk about it, but I wonder if I oversimplified it in my mind, that basically the goal from students was to show the politicians how deliberation is done..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. They’re supported by an exoskeleton of NGOs outside." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Then the students end up with a draft, CSSTA? What was the outcome?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Six core principles toward CSSTA. The first is that there need to be a law that treats CSSTA as not something domestic but similar to international treaties." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The same scrutiny and the same..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, exactly. The last one is that there should be a constitutional forum to talk about constitutionality of this kind of deliberations that set the play field before actually deliberating anything with Beijing. I think that’s the largest scope, the increase in scope." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This one was only partially agreed, the Ma Ying-jeou government to run a national economic forum, because they want to restrict that conversation on only economic and also bring scope, understandably." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still, in that national economic reform forum, there’s a majority opinion that says the government should make an e-petition platform and an e-participation platform that includes the WeThePeople or regulation.gov and designs so that this kind of thing won’t happen in the future, because people actually have a way to take to the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s how join.gov.tw was born. It is the collective will of the post-Occupy forum. Even if it’s had some discount, but most activists will tell you that it suffered a discount, but still it made some change happen." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The other five points were more or less..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, I can read you the English version. Let me get the quotes right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s four concrete consensuses. Point one is actually a bundle as it is very often in things like that. I’m trying to search for an English version published, which there may not be one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first one is actually a bundle. The legalization should be supervised. We need to agree to five core principles, that is to say citizen participation, congressional supervision, human right protection, information disclosure, and government accountability. These are five NGOs carrying that procedure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s details in that. This is just high-level summary. the second, of course, legislation before reviewing the service trade. Actually, this is already agreed by the head of the parliament even before the Occupy retreated. is an early agreement. A mayor actually also aready supported this point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third thing is, which is the discount when it comes to answering this, we will call for a civic constitutional conference, the Iceland style. People have already prototyped a grassroot forum for a civic constitutional conference. People are going to run them all over the place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People call for a genuine constitutional moment, for this to be recognized on national stage. This was accepted with the discount that you can talk about the economic part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Four, very importantly, is the Executive Yuan need to withdraw the service agreement back to the negotiations. The whole ECFA framework need to be suspended before those five details are met, the legal proceeding completes, and also a civic constitutional conference is run. Those five plus one plus one need to all happen before we even talk about CSSTA again." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "In practice, CSSTA was killed with this, was stopped?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Everything here was agreed by the parliament." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It will probably be a long time before somebody dares to touch this again?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the CSSTA. It’s a victory for the occupiers." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’m curious, by the way, about this message." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This message on my name card?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is our main message from our Ministry of Foreign Affairs, #TaiwanCanHelp, meaning that we can help other economies to reach the sustainable goals because we literally have all the 17 verticals. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like many other Asian countries where if you talk about human rights, they may not help that much, but in finance, they can help. Or if on every culture, they can help somewhat, but if you talk about open government, they can help. In Taiwan, we can help all the 17. That’s the main message." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Something to be proud about, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course. It’s sustainability." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I often wonder about that. I come from Belgium, which is this tiny country, which used to have a sense of pride around its role in the world. We’ve completely lost that, but you have countries like Norway which still..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much leading the thoughts." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "...lead in all sorts of domains. Just recently reading about how Norway is playing a big role in cleaning the oceans and stuff. I feel like small countries like Belgium and like Taiwan, we could punch above our weight by getting involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By committing to help clean the plastics of Indo-Pacific Oceans..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and by increasing the biodiversity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan’s marine area, there’s 10 percent of the world’s marine species. It’s a huge biodiversity." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "It’s not even that expensive. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "You’ll have a budget of that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s \"Taiwan can help\", because this requires international collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was reading this book called \"New Power.\" It separates the methods of new power, of horizontal power, of getting people’s spare time and attention, and channel it through hashtags and so on into action. That’s the extensible message part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is also a new power in the dimension of values, in whether you are actually after your personal power and concentration of decision making or you’re after a collective intelligence and devolution of decision making. These two doesn’t always go together. You can have a new power methodology, but are actually reinforcing the centralized government and the centralized ruler." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or you can have old power methodologies such as deep canvassing and things like person-to-person doing it that is not digital at all, that it has long tradition where you’re actually instituting new power values by empowering each individual to feel strongly about their community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The new technologies or ideologies and the new power values are not always in conjunction with each other. What I’m saying is that I’m, of course, right here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m using new power tools and furthering the devolution with the hope that I can disappear any time, and the central government preferably can disappear any time. That’s why I anarchists and the local communities can gradually take over. Maybe not in my lifetime, but take over." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because our generation is the first one to have democratic experience, there are a lot of language in the public demonstration. They’re still very authoritarian, very old power. Because of that, people sometime has the projection that if you have a strong centralized ruler who can very quickly decide after listening to people, with consultation that is both efficient and also popular." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is many leaders in Taiwan -- I won’t name names -- that are advocating this particular combination. I’m not saying that they’re wrong. I’m just saying I’m following a different philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yet a lot of the old power structures are still very much alive, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Like all the ministries and the Parliament are still..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The digital ministers are still ministers. The eight horizontal ministers are also ministers. We co-exist. That’s a fact." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I imagined people would say if you’re willing to use power in the old way, the existing system has no problem with using power in the old way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "In the short term, you’re losing out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t care about short-term. I work in the K-12 curriculum. Everything that I produce will only take effect 12 years in the future." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Part of that is just the overview effect. Have you tried looking at Earth from space?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Earth from space?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, like astronauts. Have you tried that in the VR?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe I can show you." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I’ve actually never had a VR thing before. Have..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea, very simply put, is you look at the Earth from space. This is my dynamic wallpaper. It actually reflects the time of the day. People often come from a mission to International Space Station and come back to Earth a better person, because of the overview fact. They see the Earth as fragile." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even for the private entrepreneurs like Mark Shuttleworth and so on, who paid privately for a space trip, it actually has the same effect, which is why he founded this Ubuntu Linux effort. The short-term makes a lot of sense because we’re literally clouded by the clouds. We can’t see people from the other side of the world as neighbors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the root of the problem of polarization. It doesn’t feel natural to care the same way of people in Toucheng as people in Tainan for people based in Taipei. Personally, I never had this problem, because I literally grew up on Internet. [laughs] Anywhere that’s connected is my kin." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "And in Germany, right? You grew up in...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I lived in Germany for one year or two. When I was 24, 25, I did what Erdős did, which is stay in one computer scientist’s home, collaborate on a project, until they can’t suffer me anymore, then they have to find another computer scientist to pay for the ticket or railway." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Paul Erdős." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I was cross-pollinating between the various different computer language paradigms. I think I visited 20 countries or so and just stayed in random people who I only met online. Turned out they are all very good people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With a community like that, it’s impossible to feel too attached to short-term political or domestic issues in any particular locality, which is why I always say I work with and not for Taiwan. That is the core difference." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, after Sunflower, a lot of people feel that they have a lot of speed and momentum running into the public administration. We are actually. The vector is changing how the public administration moves, because the activists are numbered in, I don’t know, hundreds of thousands. The people who actually push the public administration, maybe number in the thousands." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The public administration itself is much larger than this. All the career public service and employees, it’s easily hundreds times larger. We can’t have one activist for each public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While, of course, it is turning and we’re turning quickly, the inertia is felt deeply by everybody, because we’re still running and not touching the apparatus. Everybody feels we’re moving very fast, but when we reach the public administration, of course the sheer inertia cancels out most of the momentum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re changing the direction, but the momentum is felt as lacking from a lot of people. Of course, you can say if we put a benevolent dictator to steer the ship and just cruise it to our direction, that will make things so much better. That is an illusion and a very dangerous illusion that other countries in Asia have fallen to. We’re not going there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Virtual reality. Let’s take a look." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yay." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I think it’s charged a little bit at least." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here we go. What you’re about to see is the Earth, essentially from the vantage point from the International Space Station. You can use your thumb like this to scroll the Earth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you look at Mars, or moon, or whatever, you can pull the trigger to go there. If you ever get lost, you can just spin a little bit on your chair and re-orient in the solar system, so to speak. Try not to push those two buttons, because they will take you back to the home or the menu screen respectively. I think that’s all you need to know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it still needs more battery power. Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s wait a bit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How long are you in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I arrived yesterday and tomorrow I’m going to Shanghai..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re literally just here for a couple days?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What was your research in Shanghai or your work in Shanghai?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s related to this book I wrote about organizational governance. There’s a two-day conference around the book." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool, that’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I brought a copy for you if ever you were interested. Feng wrapped it. She’s going to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. Of course, we’ll..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I have a simplified Chinese version, but you’re probably more interested in the English version." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I don’t. Is the simplified Chinese version abridged?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "No, it’s the same." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I’m interested in that, too." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "If not, you give it to somebody else. I don’t need it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, awesome. This is great." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There’s a currently translation underway into traditional Chinese. I’ve been very lucky. It’s become a huge thing today. What’s really interesting is that there’s a movement now, probably thousands of organizations that are taking really quite radical steps in this direction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The quality is really good, the translation." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s actually the really cool things happening around the book today. The translation was itself organized thing of 45 people in China." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Really? It’s like crowdsourced." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "They approached and said, \"Can we do it?\" I said, \"Sure.\" They self-organized. Everybody translated a little part, and then they had a process to harmonize everything and then to bring it to a higher quality. They found a publisher and then arranged for a contract with the publisher." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s new power right there." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s new power. Pretty much all the translations that have happened have happened in that way, people simply saying, \"Can I pay for the translation?\" I said, \"Sure.\" [laughs] Or people crowd-translating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read a collaborative translation by people in PRC and overseas, \"Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality,\" the HPMOR. I think the translated version at some place is better than the original." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Indeed. It reminds me of the book \"Gödel, Escher, Bach\", which I read as a child, there’s so many word plays that the translator in Chinese have to find new wordplays. Sometimes, those are better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I really like the quality of this translation... I’m a translator and interpreter myself." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Oh, you are?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, so I really care about these sort of things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I see Otto Scharmer mentioned in the cover of book... He is the author of \"Theory U\", right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s written here that he’s a recommender of your book. Is there a conscious connection to the Theory U?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "There’s a connection of consciousness, if you want to. We look at the things from the same perspective. It’s totally compatible. This goes into very granular details of management." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I researched a number of really quite astonishing organizations, which founders have a perspective -- sort of the new power perspective -- on the world that makes them, they simply cannot do traditional management. They simply cannot." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What was interesting is that even though these different founders didn’t know of one another, what they ended up doing is often..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Remarkably similar." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Almost identical, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Simply because they’re downloading something that is interesting, ready to be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...a vessel." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Exactly. In that sense, it’s very much compatible with Theory U. What I tried to do in the book is talk about concrete principles that are at play, but then go really into detail about, if you have an organization with 10,000 people and you have no, zero, boss-subordinate relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What to do?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What to do? What is in the structure? Who can make what decision? Who gets a pay raise at the end of the day? Do you still have targets? Do you need to still have budgets?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Be very pragmatic to show that this is no more rocket science. It’s not a pipe dream. There are organizations that do it, and we actually know how to do this now. There’s enough examples." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, this is like just rocket science now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "SpaceX can do it." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "What is interesting is that in many ways, these practices are much simpler than our practices today." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, because it makes use of fuller engagement of people. In the same amount of time, you can listen better." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Actually, our hierarchical systems are hugely complex. In many ways, they’re not very natural, so we spend enormous amounts of time navigating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re only engaging with a little part of people anyway. Thank you. I really appreciate the excellent quality Chinese translation." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "How can you see that so quickly like that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Huh?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "How can you see so quickly that the translation is good? You barely picked up the book and you said this is a great translation. I’m just curious how you can sense that’s..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read in batch mode. I just visually scan this and then flip to the next page, but I comprehend in a second pass. I just flip the book and have a visual memory of it, and then close the book for a while to do the comprehension." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "That’s amazing. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just two different batches." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is there one way that you could let me through the Oculus system to transfer that?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I would love to have that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not \"Matrix.\" It is just not reading out anything aloud. It’s like engaging only with the visual part of the cortex, and then the read aloud part happens on the second batch. When I was a child, I love to read those classic literature Chinese texts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re not meant to be read out loud. They’re not recording of voices in any way. They’re pure ideographs in a sense. They’re meant to be comprehended in a gestalt. That’s how I learned to read." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The second pass, do you actually read it or do you have it memorized in your mind?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have it internally memorized. I have a visual impression, and then the visual impression starts to turn into sounds and concepts in my mind." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The Foreword to the book was written by -- I don’t know if they translated it here -- a guy called Ken Wilber. Are you familiar with Ken Wilber?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think so." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I think you would be fascinated by this. Probably one of the most brilliant minds. He’s an American philosopher. I’ll send you the email with some references." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would be great." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "He interviewed me. We did nearly a five, six-hour podcast around the book. I was wondering, he has this is massive knowledge just in his mind, like side references. When we did the interview, I just realized he knew the book better than I did." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "He has absolute photographic memory. He has read the book once, and he can cite any passage from it. I was like, this shit wasn’t fair. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, with the right app, you can do the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every part of that process is being automated now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s give this a last try and see whether the battery works, and then we’ll wrap up. Let’s see if this works." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All right, here we go." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is it working?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I’d like you to put this on so you don’t have to hold it with your hand. This is for sound. This is the trigger and rotates things. Is it working? Do you see our planet?" }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yeah, it seems to be working." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can look around. This is actually how our system is like at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Is this really the solar system right now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. It’s astronomically correct. You can go to any planet and navigate the Earth." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "The difference in light between North and South America is crazy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m going to just stand by you and read your book. Spend as much a time you want." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "We have to send Donald Trump to see the world from above." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Maybe Taiwan can help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, there are more than one mayor candidates here who are interested in using the system to deliberate public architecture. I’m pretty sure Taiwan can help very shortly." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "I was just thinking, pay a trip for Trump to go and see the Earth from above." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you touch the trigger here, it’s the one that you can maybe circle around a planet and you can pull the trigger a couple of times to actually go there with your finger, like this one." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Now I clicked on Taipei, and now is showing me population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but if you look at other planets, you can use the trigger to..." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Power off. I think it’s..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s powered off. At least we had a glance." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Yeah. Thank you. I liked it. That was a little bit of a historical moment for me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All right." }, { "speaker": "Frederic Laloux", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Welcome to the Social Innovation Lab. It’s co-created by hundreds of social innovators. We’re open until 11:00 PM every day. There’s a chef. There’s a kitchen. It’s a really co-creative space." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "You don’t get hungry here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, slides." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "We didn’t know what you know about the organization we work in, so we have a quick introduction through the slides and then maybe something where we could explore about..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is this pubic information?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah. You could share it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can send us the PDF. We can publish after 10 days of editing our transcript." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yes. I’ll ask Weiwei." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s good." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "She’s into it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She’s figuring that out." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "OK. [laughs] I quickly talk and then see what resonates with you and go a little bit deeper. As a quick agenda, maybe the introduction of the group we work for, how digital we are, what we do here in Taiwan, maybe an interesting example from my own country -- I’m from the Netherlands -- and then some topic we could do to possible collaborations here in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "The RELX Group, we help scientists do better science, very important lawyers win their cases. We help doctors treat their patients better and work for the insurance companies as well. There are four big areas. The one we work for is Elsevier. You might have heard of this. It’s a science publisher. You might have published yourself. I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I published." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Very good. We didn’t check your publishing record. Then there’s legal risk business or information for insurance companies. We’re one of the largest exhibitors. Without people knowing when they go to big exhibitions, often they’re done by our colleagues from Reed Exhibitions, like Comic-Con, for instance, if you have ever heard of that one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "A quick overview. We’re a large company or medium sized. €8 billion in revenues, 33 billion in capitalization. We’re 74 percent digital right now in revenue. More active in North America and then Asia and Europe. Lots of income through subscription model." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "This is a bit how our digital transformation took place -- very happy about that because it’s been pretty fast for 2000. Digital was still a small percentage. Now it’s the vast majority. The orange is face-to-face. People still come to exhibitions in person." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Remained pretty much constant." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. That’s what you would expect, actually. The core drive for our industry is first a deep understanding of our customers, very high-quality content and data sets, good analytics, and also very powerful underlying technology. To go a little bit deeper, this is for the four businesses." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The four groups." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. We’ll just look at for Elsevier. We focus on scientists. We focus on the health professionals. We have amazing networks, 17,000 journal editors, almost a million reviewers. We have 10 million monthly unique visitors that come to our platform. It’s a great example of economy of scale there." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "What kind of data sets do we have? We get 1.5 million article submissions every year. Of those, a third survive. Two thirds are rejected. The ones that survive, they’re usually rewritten two or three times. It’s quality selection and quality enhancement." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Today we have 15 million articles on our platforms, every single one peer reviewed. When you’re a computer scientist, you can trust them, just as I can trust, I guess the ACM or IEEE. We also have database for drugs, for chemicals, etc." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "We do lots of analytics. We have got an example we’ll get into a little bit later specific for Taiwan. Today, we hired lots of technologist, so to say, invest a lot in technology as well. We have technology hubs. One is actually here in Singapore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How many people in Singapore?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That’s a good question. We can double-check." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hundreds or dozens?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah, something like it." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "I think it was more than..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "No, it’s more than hundreds and thousands." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "When I was there, I did..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a regional hub." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah, exactly. We’re actually building up on in Amsterdam, where I’m based, which is kind of funny because it’s our headquarters. From a technology perspective, we’re a little bit behind. They always had the big hubs in the US and in the UK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Good to know. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "What do we do with the technology? These are the typical big data solutions. We have all these datasets. How can you make sense out of that? How can you focus on the quality? How can you do entity resolution, the link analysis, the clustering analysis, etc.?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "If we talk about Elsevier, more the science publisher, today’s researcher has many, many difficult tasks to survive. Get grants, get published, do the teaching, attract the right people to work with, start collaborations, keep up-to-date with today’s research. I’m sure there are other things here, but the form size is too small for somebody of my age." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s OK. I can read them just fine." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Because you’re younger." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "The approach from Elsevier is that we have the big data solutions, we have the rich content, and we have all these networks. If you combine that, it’s quite powerful." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "You see on the next slide, very digital. 81 percent is digital today. Also strong on technology -- lots of machine learning, search, data visualization. One of the big databases we have is called Opus, which is all the digital metric data. Are you familiar with this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not very familiar, but I have friends working in that area." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a clear pipeline here, right?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From the publishing, to the storage of data, to the applied knowledge." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. We are still a publisher, what we call a quality information provider. We still very much focus on getting the right content in. This diagram, this is where we see the different segments based on what is called the field-weighted citation impact." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Every discipline has a different way of working. A typical article in the life science will have 50 references, and therefore many more citations. In mathematics, you can write an article from first principles, nothing wrong with that. You can have one reference." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s far more difficult to get citations in mathematics, so you have to compensate for that. That’s why the field-weighted citation impact. It’s a proxy for impact, for quality. Here you see the orange is the Elsevier journals, and then..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other companies." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "...other large companies. Springer Nature is one of them and Wiley is one of them, Taylor Francis probably. You see that we do pretty well in the top 10 percent on that field-weighted citation impact. We do very well on the 10 to 25 percent. We do also pretty good 25 to 50 percent. We have very few journals in the lower..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That actually wasn’t the case -- I’ve been with Elsevier for a long time -- 10 years ago, 15 years ago. We really ramped up our quality. That’s something I think we can be proud of." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "This is a bit of the transformation, very high level. Before we were a publisher and we just said, \"Here it is. Go and read it.\" We invested very much like search for exactly the right information. Now, we want to give advice and do the right thing, answer questions." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "When you’re a doctor, we don’t say go and read articles or search for articles. We will try to give you the answer you need to when you’re next to the patient." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Quite active also in managing research data. I don’t know if you know this approach. This is a bit on Nirvana, successful data management. Today, we are already lucky in certain disciplines if data is stored. Sometimes, it’s not even stored let alone preserved." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s accessible. They can discover it. You can cite it. You understand it. It has some kind of quality seal that is reviewed. You can reproduce it. It’s also that you can reuse it. This is a bit like where we want to work towards." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It depends on the field. In our own field, astrophysics, we do a pretty good job. Within chemistry, they’re still struggling at the bottom of the pyramid, so to say. We are developing and we have developed solutions for all these different parts. I’m not saying that we’ve solved everything, obviously, but certainly getting there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the government open data strategy, we’re working on the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan has been, for two consecutive years, ranked the top country, international, on open data. I think that’s because we have a very firm commitment that everything that is freedom-of-information accessible, it must be provided in a machine-readable manner. It’s not just for the right to know, but actually the right to reuse." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "And the right to search." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. This doctrine is essentially saying machines are people, too. Just like we need to provide blind people with universal access, we need to provide AI with equal access. The jump from comprehensible to reusable is a strictly followed guideline in all the levels in Taiwan government." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a part of the pyramid." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Excellent. You see also that it’s used a lot. People find it and they download it and cite it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It increases trust. People, like in climate research or in air quality, if their data are not compatible, then they are not actually doing science because you cannot compare the different models, which is why we all follow the international standards in such things." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Some of the things we do specific for the datasets. It’s linking from articles to the datasets and repositories. We have our own data repository." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see we use the same open data license, which makes things very easy." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. We’re active in most of these more technical communities. We want to stay with the right standards as well, and also contribute to developing some of the standards." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "In Elsevier in Taiwan, how many people work here?" }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "In the realm of 30 people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like a branch?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. We see here on the bottom, we provide the right content, journals and books, a drug database. We also have the right platforms. We already mention Scopus. There’s been Mendeley. It’s a bit of Facebook. You probably have heard of Mendeley. SSRN, this is for the pre-print, which started in the social sciences. We’re now doing it in other areas as well." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Here, to provide this insight, we have the more analytical solutions. You see a little bit like an evolution going from content to platforms to insights." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s Engineering Village? This one is new to me." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s a specific collection of data, which start mostly around publications and the citation database for engineers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see. What kind of engineer, like civil engineering and so forth?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "All engineering." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Software engineering, everything?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah. It goes back actually a century, so there’s lots of information there. Knovel is also something in the engineering space which we acquired." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "I already mentioned Scopus. It extract the information from 5,000 publishers, certainly not only Elsevier. Then we have this analytic solution, SciVal, which is based on Scopus." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "I’ll skip all the Chinese, but I’m sure it makes sense to you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It makes sense." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Here, we provide the data for two rankings. Take, for instance, Times Higher Education Ranking. They have this weighted impact of teaching, research, citations, international outlook, and industry outcome. In that, big chunks are provided by Scopus." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Look at the QS World University Ranking. We provide all the citations, so it’s 20 percent. They also use the Scopus database to find the right people to write for the academic reputation. This is kind of a questionnaire. Weiwei’s going to tell you about the very specific ranking we support here in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "We just recently partnered with Global Views..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "GVM." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yeah, GVM. They have special list for Taiwan university ranking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You make have to speak a little bit louder. Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "This is a special project for Taiwan university ranking. Here you can see five different measurements. For the research component, data comes from Scopus and the SciVal metrics. I think this is in July this year issue. Based on the metrics that we discuss with them, we came out like..." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "You can see on the website. They have four main categories for Taiwanese ranking. One’s for comprehensive university, public university, and also medical university. Different categories use different..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Metrics." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Metrics, yes. The 18 university president came to receive the award. There is a press conference that we hosted. There was a..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Launch event." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "...award presentation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You help with four of the five indicators?" }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yep. We don’t do teaching performance. We don’t have that information." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "They also add their own measurement. They add research center and do their own metrics. They combine with ours to come out this ranking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Societal impact, this is media mentions, right?" }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s a bit of a proxy. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s totally a proxy, but I’m not going to challenge that. What I’m going to say is that what kind of media links are you doing for so-called online media? Do you mean online media as in other online versions of traditional media, social media, or blogs?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "I think it’s both." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yeah, it’s both." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Certainly, it’s the social media as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a social media part analytic in your database?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s called Plum Analytics." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Traditional media, too, like CNN. Any news or any exposure on CNN is traditional news online. This data state also got collected and stored in our database." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I mean more of the independent blogs..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That’s a good one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...things like Twitter accounts with a lot of followers, but they are not traditional media." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "No, but certainly the social media is there, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, etc. I don’t know all the blogs. That might be more difficult to get a good overview." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a different world." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "I can double-check." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In humanities, like philosophy and so on, they rely heavily on self-organized forums for societal impact." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly, and that’s where most of the discussion takes place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. For example, in mathematics, maybe in Terence Tao’s blog..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...that’s where the conversation happens. It’s, of course, a proxy, but I’m happy to see that you’re including various different forms of social media and online media." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "We’re actually thinking very hard to develop better metrics, also because we get this demand from the universities and the funders. An easy one is economic impact. We can make this link between articles and patents." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the corporate collaboration part." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "No, actually those are articles which are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It counts patents." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah, but here the one is mostly the articles which are published by, say, a researcher at a university and a researcher in industry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That’s academic-corporate collaboration. That’s are easy. For instance, it would also be very interesting for you do research and at some point -- say, in environmental studies -- you shape a new environmental policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Policy impact." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s reflected in the legislation. We’re trying to explore that, but it’s very tricky to really follow that path in a way and then really link policy with research." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It would help, of course, if at the end of our policy-making process, we link back to the citation." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would help you, right?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] We have our own government research bulletin board. I’m sure you know about our website. Everything that is publicly funded, we’re now having a policy of having the policymaking context linking back to the taxpayer-paid research. That provides you with a clear back-link to the research that’s done. If that happens to be also published in your database, that’s a very clear link." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re using the Sustainable Goals as the primary index." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Sustainable Development Goals, SDGs?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the SDGs..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Perfect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is what I’m wearing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...as the main index, especially for the environmental and social impact, exactly as you said. There’s very few reliable, internationally useful indicators in this area, but SDG at least everybody has agreed to. [laughs] It’s a proxy. I would also admit that, but it’s a good start. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s a start, and this implies that your policies are based on scientific evidence. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That’s not always the case in all countries, right? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll refrain from commenting." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Very good. How is Taiwan doing? We have all the data compared to other countries. Taiwan is in the top 20. It’s number 20." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re the global average in the sense of field-weighted citation impact. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. You’re very, very close. Here, we have another graph where you see an interesting correlation. Here again, you see the field-weighted citation impact versus international collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Countries like Switzerland and my own country the Netherlands, we have loads of international collaboration, of course. We are a bit smaller, so that also forces you. Taiwan is not that huge, either. You see that they do very well within the impact as well." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "One advice that I would also give when I meet a university president, I say, \"Can you stimulate international collaboration?\" It seems to be really..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that it’s a worthwhile goal." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re slowly rolling out a bilingual policy where in kindergarten we start, maybe next year, to teach immersive English. By the time they’re grad students, maybe we switch to add English as one of our official languages." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "For master’s level?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but his whole process will take a decade or so. Slowly, we’re rolling out English as one..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "You think the language is really the bottleneck?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is one of the bottleneck. Language acquisition is getting easier with machine translation anyway. This is more of a familiarity of the field. Instead of relying on people to translate, we can now use machine learning and basically jump in into any discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even though there’s bound to be some errors in machine translation, at least that gets people to know the right people on the international communities. Not afraid of using broken English, because most people are speaking English as the second language anyway..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Not our mother tongues, either." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Not afraid of publishing in a not-perfect English is one of the psychological barriers that we have to get across." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Absolutely, but a bit also cultural factors. I lived in Japan and I go there a lot. Actually, the number of Japanese scientists willing to go abroad is going down." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see that." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Here, we compare Taiwan to other countries in output. Taiwan is stable. It’s the green one with the green arrow. The one that really jumps out here is, of course, China. Here you see the international collaboration. Of course, Hong Kong and Singapore do very well there. All the countries are more or less grouped together. A positive is that Taiwan is going up a bit." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "You see the same kind of clustering for the impact. Again, Singapore and Hong Kong are together, and then all the other countries are more or less at the same level. The only thing that really changed over time is China. That was far below the world average already in 2008 and is now on par with the world, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The more people who do science, the greater the total contribution." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah, but this is a quality measurement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "You often see it..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a good thing." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah. We have lots of detailed data. This is at the university level, just to say that we have that as well if you’re interested. If you want to look at your favorite university, we have that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m a junior-high dropout." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have a favorite university." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Sorry, we don’t have your junior high in here." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "We also mapped out Taiwan’s New Southbound Policy. Maybe Weiwei wants to say something about this. I see something upside down." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there’s a special report here." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "There’s more analysis in this one. These are aligned with the government policy, using the government’s data to pull out the Southbound countries. Majorly used Southeast Asia. You don’t see Australia and New Zealand here. Usually, we recruit students and new professors from Southeast Asia countries, so that’s why I focused on these countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, India, of course. There’s a lot of India collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "You can see India. You can see a lot, in terms of collaboration, Taiwan and India’s. You see India is top one or two." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m well aware of that." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "This one is collaboration, publication in these five different areas. The first one you see, in engineering, the country that we collaborate with is India. The second one is in Singapore. You can see different country in different subject areas." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "This one, as you can see, it’s only measured Taiwan research performance in 2012 to ’16. You can see in this I only placed the top four subject areas. You can see engineering is our major focus, and then the second one is medicine, and computer science, physics, and astronomy." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "This chart is different from this. This, you can see what most of the collaboration comes from, which country in different subject area. This, you can see..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The country." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yeah, by country, you can see. With India, the highest collaboration is physics and astrology." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Astronomy." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yeah, astronomy. Sorry. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure they’re very good at astrology as well." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yeah, but they don’t publish much about it." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "You can see the..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "My background’s in astronomy, so I’m sorry, I..." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Before we talk about your astrological sign." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "You can see by the number of publications and also the quality of papers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is really insightful and very well-prepared. Is there a reason why you choose a lighter color over here? It’s just because it’s less collaboration?" }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "No, this is just the design. I send the data to our..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Designers." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "...the backend design, yeah. This is our..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is more like your color palette." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "[laughs] That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very easy on the eyes." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "[laughs] I thought I would bring a Dutch example. We worked with the Dutch government. Essentially, they say, \"We want to live in this knowledge economy and to enter our societal challenges, for instance, around affordable food or sustainable food production.\" The Netherlands is the number one food producer in the world producer in the world after the US, just as an example." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s this mix of technology and innovation policies. You see here how the Netherlands is doing compared to the other European countries. Again, pretty good in quality. Denmark is a little higher, unfortunately. Just in the middle as output, because we’re a mid-sized country or small, whatever you want to look at it. We cannot compete with Germany." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "We looked at specific top technologies and we really zoomed in to very detailed ones. What jumped out is that the Netherlands does pretty well in the life sciences, for instance, stem cell technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Genomics." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. What also jumped out is, for instance, microreactors. This is more chemical technology. Imaging technologies and optical, mechanical engineering solutions." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Then we see, \"Who exactly is doing that research?\" You see an example here for nanotechnology. This is at the technical university of Delft and Twente. This you see the number of publications and, again, the impacts and who would be their competitors abroad. MIT, CIT, and CRS and what is their quality?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "What will jump out in this whole list is this ASML, which is a company, very big in the Netherlands, but also very active here in Taiwan. I think there are thousands of people working for ASML here in Taiwan as well." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "That’s a bit. Overall, the conclusion of this study is very research-intensive. The Netherlands really perform way about our size. Very good in all these key technologies. We outperform many other European countries. I mentioned already it’s very much in the life sciences, chemical, and engineering." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Very international, more international than others, except for the Swiss, but they’re not in the EU. Then, there’s a very nice mix of mature technologies and new technologies. This is all based on data. This not interviews or expert opinions, this all comes from our database. This is a bit of an introduction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is great. Like almost pushing the limit of what two-dimensional media can do." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure you’ve used virtual reality. There’s more dimensions to work with." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yes, absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you for sharing. This is very exciting work, and certainly, as we already mentioned, in Taiwan we are looking towards expanding more international collaborations. As a minister in charge of social innovation one of our goal for the next four years with the social innovation action plan is to develop a way to measure social impact and environmental impact of academic activities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we have a plan called the University Social Responsibility or USR, which is like CSR but better..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...because it can make the students complete their custom projects just by working and focusing on a community issue. Just as you said, maybe they work on biodiversity, maybe they work on ecological economics -- not astrological astronomy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ecology and economy, and to figure out the way for those two fields to bridge together, maybe as a social enterprise or some other way to create value together. If it doesn’t work, it’s science, so people learn from what doesn’t work, because they’re still in the university. Their parents doesn’t feel like is it a failed entrepreneur, [laughs] so maybe it does work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then there is academic contribution, so their professor will publish, but then we face a problem of how to define the social and environmental changes. That’s not necessarily policy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be a change in people’s mindset toward endangered species, toward recyclable, renewable materials of viewing plastic not as a waste but as a way to regenerate biofuel or whatever, so it changes a social dynamic, but how do we actually measure that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Most of the ways we learn from the EU especially is either a SROI, which measures the social return of investment in dollar terms, like how much time or money down the line are we saving by intervening before the social problem happen. That’s one way." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "So a preemptive thought." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Preemptive one. The other one of course is like the...I don’t know whether you know the B Corp Movement, the B Lab Movement that declares a corporation as a benefit corporations meaning that..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "The B is benefit?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, yeah. The corporate declare for themselves what kind of social environmental and governance impact they have like triple bottom line, in addition to the original bottom line..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Financial, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The financial ones. This is more of a huge checklist of hundreds of micro items, and they assume that if the company is doing a majority of this well, it’s a well-balanced company that creates certain impact, but as you can see, this is a proxy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t actually measure the actual impact, but actually it measures the shape of governance that could lead theoretically consistently to positive impact. Between those two paradigms, I’m sure that we can develop something that is specific to university and graduate level studies that works on the basis os sustainable goals, but doesn’t end with sustainable goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the goals just say, \"You know, by 2030 we need to be here.\" They don’t say how are we getting there and whether doing this movement is actually moving forward or backward. It doesn’t say anything about it. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think in the next four years there’s going to be a lot of funding and a lot of academic interest in bridging the corporate ESG accounting and the social return of investment and of dollar conversion into something that can measure the societal impact in a more consistent way that also work across countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is an active area of research study. If you have any insight or anyone you know who has any insight will be totally thrilled to have this conversation." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "We’re also active in the area of the SDGs. We have a SDGs resource center. I’ll send you the link and see if there’s anything in there..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we’re integrating that into our curriculum, so anything that helps people to raise awareness is a good thing. We work with international organizations already. There is a GSMA, the association that does the GSM, and they are mobile telco providers and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are actually shaping their SDGs Explorer like this, so you can very clearly see that we’re in a world by engaging which telco operator, which SDG goals are they making." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re going to do the same mapping for social entrepreneurs for USI and CSR here in Taiwan, so we’ll have consistent data maybe down to the target level data for everybody to do data science around. It makes it easier for social entrepreneurs to find the academic support that they will need, because then we’re working on the same goals and targets." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, we should work together. If you have a resource center that is somewhat similar to this shape, I’m sure that we can collaborate more closely." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Perfect. What is this, say, for Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s quite a few cases for Taiwan telcos, usually the Digital Opportunity Center, and then there’s also UA4G project which makes use of ET. Japan uses the natural disaster recovery which we are doing a compatible called the CI, the Civil IoT project, which you may be interested, because it is the first time that we’re using citizen science data alongside academic science data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually they’re two different worlds, but now we’re making sure that people here are using advanced data science. They can upload their own air quality measurement data, snapshot it, and store on a distributed ledger to make sure that we don’t modify anyone’s data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, making sure that people can see the whole air quality through citizen IoT, also our law enforcement-based IoT and sensors." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "And it’s measured to smart phones, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is exactly right. There’s citizen science, what we call AirBoxes that are all over Taiwan, and we integrate in a way that ensures their quality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For places where the citizen scientist cannot go to, for example, I usually use this map where there’s citizen science points that measures the air quality and correlates to the academic research on these things. It shows the digital gap in Taiwan, I guess. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are places where citizen scientists are active, and the universities and environmental protection agency..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "And the color means the quality" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The color means air quality, yes, PM2.5 in this case, and of course we flew in the places where the civil society cannot go to like high mountains, and even in the middle of the Taiwan street, because we’re going to have off-shore wind turbines..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...where we’re going to put air quality permanent sensors on all the turbines to help getting the root cause of which air pollution comes from out there or from inside of Taiwan. The important thing is that all this is open innovation meaning that it’s open source." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The data is out in the open so that everybody in the word, even though it’s Taiwan-innovated, they can download and run it locally in Asia and build on this, which in this case informs the Japanese community through code for Japan, so this is a cross-country collaboration right there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In addition to the Taiwan cases which I talked about, we’re also working with NZ to make sure that our civil IoT for water pipeline, like pressure and flow and so on, can be used to detect water leakage using machine learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They didn’t use to have a water shortage problem, but now because of climate change they do, and so they’re partnering with us for three months to codevelop a AI algorithm that works for both countries, and I think this is a new kind of diplomacy. We call this warm power. Not just sharp power, warm power, in the sense that people can share easily." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s the old science diplomacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, exactly. The real issues that we’re facing with, and making sure that, for example, Italy, just imported our model of budget visualization. This is a Taiwanese round, but they are setting their Italy chapter to do budget visualization." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Controversial budgeting it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and analysis and a real-time conversation. What I’m getting into is that this is by Nature International, because of open data, open source, and open science, and any work that you..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "And open access." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And open access. Any work that you have in terms of the environmental data, we’re happy to integrate into the CI system. Which stands not only for civil IoT, but also collective intelligence." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Oh, OK. Good, we’re happy to share what we have. On a more mundane level, the publishing industry is very active also around SDGs. They’re going to launch an SDG book club for children in all the six UN official languages." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "For every month, so for 17 months in a row, there will be books in Spanish, for kids in Peru." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Around say, water, or about gender issues in the Arab world for a child in that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wrote some system that can take simplified Chinese and automatically produce traditional Chinese." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Oh, OK, all right. The children won’t notice when they read it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is one of my early contributions in year 2000 or so. I think BBC and a lot of media use it. If you have those kind of books in simplified Chinese, and you’re willing to contribute to traditional Chinese books, the translation is entirely automatic nowadays. You don’t have to hire a translator." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "I hope it will all be digital, by the way. That’s the assumption here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. If it’s paper based, then we’ll have to scan it, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Exactly. Part of the publishing industry is extremely advanced. You’ve seen Elsevier or Relics. It’s all digital. Till and book publishers are quite conservative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, broadband is a human right, and we make sure that all the schools have access to broadband access, which is part of our education strategy. Because of that, anything that you publish digitally, you can be assured that the indigenous people, the remote people up in very rural areas, they have equal access to them, including tablets, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Yes. Very nice. Anything else from your side, Weiwei, you want to bring up?" }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "I’m interested to know if any projects that you’re involved in is about to collaborate with the Ministry of Science Technology’s project?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m on the weekly Board of Science and Technology meeting, although I’m not the BoST minister. That’s Minister Wu-Jen Cheng. When it comes to digital or technological issues, like the civil IoT, then I personally review the project and lead the technical part of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The CI project is actually led by the MoST, although it uses data from the EPA, from the MOEA, from all the different ministries. I think one of our contribution is that we make sure that for such cross-ministerial and cross-municipal projects, we always use a domain name like CI.taiwain.gov.tw." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our AI strategy is AI Taiwan. Social innovation is SI Taiwan, and our digital strategy being smart Taiwan. Instead of you google and find five ministries I’m sure is very different and confusing message, we make sure that it’s just taiwan.gov.tw now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The main work that I’m involved with is AI Taiwan, CI Taiwan, SI, for social innovation, Taiwan. All the three have Ministry of Science and Technology involvement." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Last time that I was here, I met with Minister Chen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, he’s great." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "And smart." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very, very smart." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It was a very good, good dialogue. He came well-prepared as well, with his team of directors-general." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For AI Taiwan, for example, there’s a grand challenge going on to work on speech recognition, and developing Taiwan-based AI speech recognition that includes semantic understanding and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next on is going to be IoT cyber security, I think. There’s going to be quite a few sandbox -- that is to say, limited time, breaking the law -- trials on automated vehicles as well, and the fintech sandbox as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All of these, although not directly MoST-led, there will be a MoST component in it." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Good, exciting." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Any informational data analysis provided by the STPI?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, sure, and the NAR Labs and so on." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "We also work with them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am aware of that." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "For not just MoST, MOE, for the research performance projects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What about NARLabs, ITRI, III, as well as the other think tanks?" }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yes we have worked with NARLabs, STPI for some projects such as University rankings and researcher mobility but haven’t worked with ITRI and III yet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Traditionally they work with e.g. the Smart Electronics Industry Project Promotion Office." }, { "speaker": "Weiwei Cheng", "speech": "Yeah, I think ITRI and III probably just focus on how they can directly convert the science work to more commercialization, right? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s true. What we’re trying to do now with the SDGs, though, is to co-develop a Horizon Project, just like the European Horizon Project, or the Japan Society 5.0. We’re trying to say, \"By 2030, we’ll be here, but what about 2050?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How to get there, and what’s our collective imagination. The think tanks are now tasked with not just applied science, which is always with a horizon with only five years or less, but actually the envisioning of the society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s that part, more like speculative design part, and also a social conversation consultation as well. That actually, you need a lot of scientific, maybe more scientific research and data-backed, because that’s how we to tell the science fiction from science nonfiction, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As far as I understand, many ministries are working together all toward this common horizon-setting scenario planning. This is a new development, like new as in this year." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Excellent. Any questions from your side?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I think this is a great contribution. It’s good to know that in Taiwan, your branch is doing well. If there’s anything that I can help, especially in terms of SDG. That is my main mandate now, is to make sure that our voluntary national review include not only the governmental contributions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, frankly speaking, the civil society space is expanding, whereas everybody near Taiwan has a shrinking civil society space. We are the most equipped to do social innovation, but it’s not always accounted for. It is not always linked back to research." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The professors, they do a lot of work, but they don’t always reflect that in their scoring." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We really need to build a system where their work in creating social impact..." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Get the credit for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...about getting the credit. The same as you have one of the pillar of the excellence in teaching. We also want to have a pillar in excellence in creating social change. That is more than media exposure, of course." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Which is on the agenda in many countries, but difficult to solve." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is, which is why we need international collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "In the UK, for the REF, the Reinsurance Evaluation Framework, they used anecdotes, essentially." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "It’s difficult to quantify." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I visited the Ministry of DCMS — well, the D and C and M, I have not yet visited the S — they are experimenting with different ways to measure. Many of those are anecdotal at the moment. They are working, of course, with Nesta and folks to try to develop new methodologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As far as I know, they all of this are all in early research phases. It’s the same for all of us." }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "Good, great. Thank you for your time. I really enjoyed the conversation. We’ll send you a..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The PDF, the digital counterpart?" }, { "speaker": "Michiel Kolman", "speech": "A PowerPoint, or a PDF, yes, absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll publish alongside the transcript, which we can edit together for 10 days." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I just started with Gay Star News a couple of months ago." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I’m based in Myanmar at the moment, but I’m moving to Taiwan in January." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which city are you going to stay in?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Taipei. Beitou we’re living in, which everyone says it’s very far away, which is worrying." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the hot springs." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I’m in Taiwan for these two weeks covered by Dot, obviously. I’m doing a bit of talking to people about the referendums, the upcoming. I also wanted to meet as many people as possible. I really wanted to meet with you." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I was discussing with Sheau-Tyng Peng. This would probably be a profile and a Q&A if you’re happy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Obviously, we’re a..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You went to the whole pride?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah. I did a Facebook Live. You can have a look if you want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome. How do you feel about it?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Really good, really positive. Actually, I haven’t been to that many prides. I’ve been to Hong Kong Pride. I felt good. We were with Jennifer Lu on her float." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "呂欣潔." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Miao Bo-ya was there as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I felt happy. It felt good. I’m not a big party animal. We didn’t go to any of the night..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the post-parties, after-parties?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah. Formosa pride. These naked men or anything. It’s good. I feel positive about Taiwan. My partner is Taiwanese. We’ve been together a while. I quite like Taiwanese culture and the place." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I don’t know how much you know about Gay Star News. We’re London based." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve browsed what’s on the web." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Most of our readers are from the UK or the US. Please bear in mind we have to spell things out for them a bit. Obviously, we focus on LGBTI issues. I wanted to talk to you about being the first transgender minister..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the world." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "...in the world, but I didn’t want to just focus on that because I know you’re doing important work. Obviously, we shouldn’t just talk about your gender identity, because this was so important, what you’re doing in Taiwan. Perhaps we could split the interview half and half if you’re happy with that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I’m totally fine with that." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Talk about a bit what you’re doing in Taiwan and talk a bit about your..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Portfolio?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "...gender identity afterwards and your journey. You can talk as openly as you want. If you think I’m going too far, and you don’t want, it’s too personal, that’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, there’s no limit. Ask me anything." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Is it all right if I get my laptop out and type as we talk?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, sure. Of course. I’ll use the tablet." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I’ll record it as well. The most well-documented interview I’ve ever had. It’s always the journalist’s nightmare of you losing the recording, so it’s nice when people record it too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll send you a transcript as well. How nice keyboard. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah, but it’s getting a bit weathered now. I have to because I spill so many things on my keyboard if I don’t do this. It will get sticky." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Perhaps we can start. What do you prefer to talk about first? Your work within the government and your political or your journey first? Or do you want to talk about the transgender stuff first?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whatever." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "You’re too free." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I think our readers will be most interested in the transgender stuff. If it’s OK, we can start with that in case we run out of time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What is it like being the world’s first transgender minister?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s pretty mainstream. In Taiwan, people generally understand that I’m openly transgender or postgender, as I prefer to call it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the cabinet, there is this HR form. There’s two boxes. One is the party affiliation. One is the gender. I filled in \"None\" in both of the boxes. People generally took it really openly. It brought a lot of positive discussions about whether we need an additional gender field in the national ID registry, for example. All the discussion so far has been positive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Since you’re moving to Taiwan, I should also say we’re now working on getting people with Resident Certificates...Before, people with Resident Certificates or ARC are numbered differently from Taiwanese national IDs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our IDs are beginning with a letter that is the city. The second letter stands for the gender. For foreign people, it’s two alphabet characters, two letters. Because of that, movie tickets, railway tickets, and so on, often it’s not so easy for people with Residence Certificate to register." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Last week, we announced that we’re migrating everyone with ARC to the same numbering system as our national ID system. We’re reserving the numbers seven, eight, and nine for the three genders of foreign nationals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that shows the goodwill of people discussing about third gender issues in a way that is concrete and makes life so much easier for people who are already foreign nationals who are registered in their country as gender neutral or queer." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I should have been better at asking you that in the beginning. I just read you referred to as transgender and used the pronoun she. You identify as, would you say, postgender or...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My pronoun is whatever. You can call me Audrey. You can call me whatever. When I’ll use formal writing, when I do a paper or whatever, I use singular they, though singular they is still not completely mainstream here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a person, a reporter, who told me that in Hebrew -- he works for an Israeli newspaper -- not only the pronoun but actually all the verbs and nouns are gendered. He was inventive. When he covered about me, he used alternating pronouns, like he, then she, then he, and then she, because Hebrew doesn’t have the gender-neutral inflections." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Doesn’t have \"they\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"She\" is fine. You can’t offend me." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "[laughs] Interesting. Living as a postgender person, what does that mean for you if you go right in front of the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, I went through two puberties. I understand how the two biological changes feel like. I also socially performed in ways that are a pretty wide range of gender performance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I usually would like to know people by their values, such as, on my main part, the Sustainable Development Goals, which are 17 very important values, instead of by their genders, or by their roles, or their classes, or their types. This value-based way of knowing people is my default way. It is about intersectionality, about what people care about instead of how they’re labeled with." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "How is Taiwan keeping up with this kind of idea?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s completely mainstream." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I was talking to Yu Mei-nu, the lawmaker. I was mainly talking to her about, obviously, equal marriage, and how that’s going through the Yuan, and all this kind of thing. I also asked her about transgender rights because I’ve been covering that a lot in Asia." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I didn’t think our conversation was particularly progressive in terms of the things we’re seeing in some countries -- removing gender from all ID documents or having the third gender on passports and that sort of thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I said, we’re now recognizing or at least beginning to recognize foreign nationals with the third gender. We’re still wondering in our national ID whether we use...Currently, it’s one and two for male and female. We’re considering zero, which I prefer actually. Maybe it’s three. [laughs] We’re still working that out. I think it’s going to be zero." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "How is day-to-day life for gender-nonconforming or gender-diverse Taiwanese?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In new places, places that’s constructed after the new construction laws, as you can see here in the Social Innovation Lab, there’s for example, restrooms. There’s a male one, a female one, a gender-neutral one, and the one with disabilities. The four are equally large." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a positive sign that shows not only it’s mainstream, but actually it’s not forcing anyone to do anything that they’re not comfortable with. This is maximal inclusion. Next to the restrooms, you also see handicapped people. They can use elevators to go to the second floor and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All this is part of what we call universal design or universal accessibility. This is not just about gender. This is about making everybody feel inclusive in spaces. Truth to be told, of course that applies to new buildings and new construction plans, and existing buildings and existing construction plans may or may not be that easy to change." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, sometimes you see disability restrooms being repurposed as gender-neutral plus disability restrooms and so on. I think this is all just a phase of time. With time, everything will be properly mainstream and inclusive, according to the new laws and regulations." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What about society’s attitudes, like families, workplaces, and people in cafes?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the constitutional court really made it really clear that whatever your sexual orientation is, people are entitled to the same right when it comes to marriage and family. I wouldn’t say that it’s completely 100 percent of Taiwanese people are fine with it now, [laughs] but after the constitutional reading at least we now are very clear that we’re moving toward that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People will start to talk about more mundane issues like the actual fine-grained rights and duties. I think the general regulative idea of people enjoying the same right regardless of their gender, sex, and sexuality and sexual orientation and whatever, I think that is part of Taiwanese culture now, and at least in our K-to-12 education system there is a law guarding that. I am sure your manual has told you -- the Gender Equality Education Act." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Linking into those factors, obviously we have these referenda about..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The word marriage." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah, about marriage equality or same-sex marriage, and about whether we change the civil code or whether we enact separate legislation. I’d be particularly interested with your expertise in the digital world and information." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "One thing that’s been flagged by a lot of people is that this is going to be quite ugly with a lot of misinformation or disinformation, and particularly on the anti-equal marriage side there’s a lot of misinformation that may be spread online. What do you think Taiwan can do to combat this kind of debate?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we have a lot of international solidarity. The French Institute in Taiwan just published a Facebook post that clarifies the misinformation about the French people being torn apart after passing the Marriage Equality Act." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The French Bureau said very clearly that the last large demonstration was in 2016 and there’s already a lot of social inclusion and acceptance of this, and very importantly, the French people was not actually as portrayed by the people spreading misinformation. It’s a lot of outdated information being unnecessarily amplified, and we thank the French Institute and Bureau in Taiwan for intervening and clarifying all those issues about their country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because Taiwan...Although we’re the first in Asia, we’re not the first in the world. There’s many places in the world has already enacted this and have years of experience. Their support and their sharing of their expertise and their experiences, I think, in the digital world, is one of the strongest ally that we can have." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Is there anything else on a more kind of technical or Taiwan-based level? Should..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, there’s a bot on the LINE system, which is a end-to-end encrypted system like WhatsApp. LINE is particularly interesting, because it’s end-to-end encrypted. There’s no search engine or any...Indeed, the company running it doesn’t know which message is running on it. There’s a lot of rumors and misinformation that’s being spread there in a dark way that people outside the circle cannot actually discover." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a bot called Co-Fact that is done by the g0v community. Very importantly, this idea of collaborative fact-checking or co-fact, surfaces those dark rumors in a way that you can just share to a bot called Is It True Or Not, 真的假的. When you share to that bot, that bot will do a fact-checking and get back to you, whether it is true or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So far, it’s like 50k users. It’s not a lot. What’s important is that it lets us -- everybody -- know what is trending, what kind of misinformation is currently being spread on those end-to-end encrypted channels, because when more than one people share to that bot, that bot marks it as trending." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Mm, then he gets his bit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every rumor of this has a URL as a web page dedicated to that rumor. For example, this is a classic one. Then people will crowdsource and fact-check and say, \"This is actually a rumor.\"" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "People can give links to mainstream media..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can link to this, and actually a lot of people on PTT or Facebook or so on can just use this URL to talk about this rumor, which was only in end-to-end encrypted channels. It kind of inoculates everybody, vaccinates everybody about this dark rumor currently being spread." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Who developed this, this crowdsource?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is from a community called g0v. I don’t personally involve in this because of my work as digital minister, but I try to promote it [laughs] whenever I can, because I think this is really innovative and is applicable to other countries as well. It can be ported on WhatsApp, on Messenger, on other SM message platforms." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Especially since I’m being recorded, I don’t make generalizations. I don’t know everything about Taiwan, but I’ve heard that people of an older generation who didn’t have the LGBTI-positive education that came about in 2004 and they may be far away from Taipei, where things are a bit more progressive. They may be older people that are using LINE to communicate, and maybe religious groups." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think everybody use LINE to communicate. It’s not just for older people. [laughs] I don’t, though." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I know everyone...I use LINE as well. What would be the scenario...Do you think that these communities, the older people, do you think they would be happy to use this if they’re talking?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. The whole idea is that they have their family channel. If they spread some rumors, their children or grandchildren can invite the bot to clarify for their family. That’s the whole idea, because for digital natives, if you see something, you can Google, you can ask the Reddit or whatever other forums." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For digital immigrants, maybe LINE is the Internet for many people, so having a LINE-native channel is very important." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Would you mind talking a bit about transgender rights?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Of course." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Or gender diverse rights?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "It seems to me I haven’t been covering these issues for a long time, but I’ve been covering them recently. It seems to be quite quickly moving, and it’s quite polarizing in the US. It’s been picked up by a lot of different people." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What have you seen? Do you connect with other approach, gender diverse movements in Asia? What positive things do you see in..." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "...things?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Transgender right is human right. Human right is part of STGs. Just yesterday, we hosted the Open Tech Fund Summit, the OTF Summit in Taiwan. Actually, it’s the first time that those human right conference is not just in Taiwan, but first time in Asia. Very soon we’re going to host the Oslo Freedom Forum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Reporter Without Borders, for example, set up their HQ in Taiwan. All this is because everywhere in Asia the civil society space is shrinking, including Hong Kong, but in Taiwan it’s expanding. It’s very easy for them to see that if they base in Taiwan, they get the protection on their work on human rights. It becomes a safeguard, a stronghold, for people working on human rights." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think transgender right is just a part of human right. I interact with these people from the human right angle. It’s not specifically because I’m transgender, but rather because I care about human right in general." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What would you say, on a larger level, the debate over marriage equality? I think I’m seeing it from a biased...not biased but from one point of view, because a lot of my friends are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can take all the sides. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "...homosexual or the like. I was surprised. For me, 137,000 people in the streets on Saturday is a big deal, but apparently, on a Sunday, it’s not really...it wasn’t on all the front pages of the local newspaper. This is similar to what we just discussed, like LGBTI issues are human rights issues. What would you say about that, that there isn’t a massive interest in this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is, I think, a generational difference in perspective in Taiwan. Marriage used to be a social construct. People who went to a wedding ceremony was any number of people witnessing it, that completes the act of marriage. It’s only afterwards people do the registration thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Marriage was a social construct until I think, a decade or so ago, where it shifted to become a registration data-based construct. People go to their local city office to register for marriage. Whether they run a ceremony, it doesn’t matter. People who are older, they think marriage is a social construct, and the state has very little to do with it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Younger people because of the changing law in a civil code, think marriage as a state construct. The social or their families are second tier when it comes to marriage. The word marriage evokes different associations in different generations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s what people are currently focusing on. I don’t think there’s right or wrong. It’s just different civil code, resulting in different perspectives." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Is there anything else you’d like to say about LGBTI issues or your journey as a postgender person?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot to say, but what would you like to hear?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I think I would like to know more about your personal journey. I haven’t actually spoken to that many...I don’t think I’ve spoken to anyone that’s identified as postgender. If you’d be happy to talk me through how that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How that works." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "...became the identity that you chose, or what journey you took, and whether you think that’s similar to other people or completely different, or how it relates to being Taiwanese and Asian, of course. That would also most interesting for me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My parents doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes at all, It runs in the family, I guess. Also, basically, when I was young, I was born with a congenital heart disease, that basically limits my movement, in the sense that I cannot get angry, or upset, or too happy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When my heartbeat increases to over and maybe 120 or something, then the oxygen circulation is insufficient. I will faint, or my face will turn blue, or whatever. I was born with the blessing that I must be calm on everything, [laughs] otherwise my body just react in a very bad way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It, of course, affects developmental and social performance as well. I’m always more quiet and more indoors because I cannot do any outdoor sport at all. Of course, when I was 12 I took a surgery and fixed the heart problem, but I think the brain is already conditioned in a way that is more inward-looking, more reflective." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around that time, I took a, I think, physical blood check examination stuff, I think, when I was around 20 years or so. It shows my testosterone level naturally is about the level of a 70-year-old man or so. Naturally, I don’t know whether related to the heart condition or not, I’m born with a really low testosterone level by male standards, but a little bit high by female standards. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So in between. I think that, of course, also affected my brain development. I’m sure. That also enabled a chance of me taking another to puberty, a female puberty, when I was 24 years old. I don’t have to take that much anti-testosterone. It’s very low, to begin with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My HRT which lasted for two and a half years, just like their puberty’s length, led me through the second puberty of development on the female side. I think that leads to more empathy. Of course, I have the first-hand experiences of many body developments, that the body asserts itself more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The gut feeling of connecting people, like feeling upset because of a common feeling instead of aggression without a purpose, which is what testosterone brings you, and things like that. In all of this, I have first-hand experience. That makes me relate, I guess, to people in various different psychological states more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s the personal part. The computer really doesn’t care which gender I am. I’m a computer programmer. In the online community, of course, people identify with various other maybe nonhuman, because as well it’s seen as very diverse." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I participate in a lot of online communities, that are very open to this post-gender expressions, and indeed the use of pronouns of singular they, of ze, of zir, of all those different pronouns." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was involved when I was 12 years old, in the old MUD community, the Massive User Dungeon community. A text-based community, of course, enables people to experiment with their gender expressions in a very free way. I think all this shape the belief that gender is expression." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a Judith Butler view on gender. I think that’s my native view on gender expression, as part of the person’s expression. What makes sense, is to relate to the experiences in the other people’s personal journey, and connect in a way that funds each other’s values instead of fear at times." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I have two questions The first is whether you think we are heading towards that more Judith Butler ideal deconstruction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pluralistic." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah. The second one, I’m just going to ask together because I don’t want to forget, would be a way to start talking about your work a bit more as well. It seems that maybe that your journey of gender identity has informed your relationship, or you’re quite passionate for I read before and seen online, passionate belief in the use of technology to help..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Intersectionality." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yes. Sexuality equality. That’s the two questions. The first is about, what do you think we are moving towards?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are, with virtual reality actually. We can now literally step into each other’s shoes, and view the body image of each other. Without VR it’s very difficult. With VR, it’s now possible to literally inhabit a different body, and have body experiences that are very different from one’s personal experiences, in a way that gives the overview effect on the diversity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sometimes we call VR the empathy machine for exactly this reason. It’s not just to gender. For example, when I talked with a bunch of schoolchildren, I actually shrinked my avatar to the same height as the primary school children. They see me as they appear, and that can appear in an avatar." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of seeing me as an adult, that’s literally twice their height, I shrink myself to the height, and then we played together. Again, without digital technologies, this is literally impossible to do. We’re also developing ways...for example, just a few days ago, we were talking about a national marine park, in which there’s a lot of what we call lemon sharks, that’s inhabiting that particular Island." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We were able to actually talk about the seed ecosystem from the perspective of dolphins or of sharks. Again, because they don’t vote today, they don’t have representatives. It used to be very hard for them to join the democratic processes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of virtual reality and the Internet of things, we’re now able to extend it into what we call an Internet of beings, and a collaborative learning, and a shared reality, that lets us view these non-human actors in a way that we can still personally empathize, without resorting to fiction or oversimplification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can literally step into a endangered species shoes. That is also intersectionality. I think all this informs the idea of me being a channel that enables people to literally feel more close to each other, and also see beings in general as people. That’s the answer to your first question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. We’re moving toward a plural world. A better plurality is not just human condition. The second view is about my personal work as digital minister. When I joined a cabinet, I brought a lot of virtual reality experiences into it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My favorite way of meditation is actually viewing the Earth from the vantage point of International Space Station. I don’t know whether you had this experience before? No?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "How do you do it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can show you. It’s very simple. You just put on a virtual reality class, and then you view it at your International Space Station." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "How often do you do it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like every day or so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s my favorite meditation." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "It’s just the live feed?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, no. It’s a recording." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hmm. It’s not set up yet. Because we’re going to use it later tonight, I thought that they’ve got it ready, but since they’ve not..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea very simply put is that you put on these goggles and it lifts you above the Earth so you can see the Earth as a whole, and this is a imperfect copy. [laughs] Basically you see something like this, and it actually reacts to the time. My wallpaper also reacts to the time, so it rotates, and you should see the solar system and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a psychological phenomenon called the overview effect that says if people become astronauts, some private sector people like Mark Shuttleworth and so on, that pay to have a trip to the outer space and see the Earth and come back, more often than not they become better people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They see the world as a living being, as fragile, and you cannot actually have that feeling when you’re down here and clouded by the clouds..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...you don’t feel the connection of the biosphere. Once you are in the outer space and see the Earth as a tangible object, you get to see how fragile actually the entire biosphere is, and you feel a strong connection to the people as a whole. Little squabbles and so on no longer affect you that much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, people become better people, and it’s a well-studied phenomenon. I would say that my work as digital minister has enabled more and more people to have this kind of overview effect, not just on the biosphere system with the Moogles, but also on policy use and context of policy making of getting people in different positions to find common values, and again intersectionality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea of we having our vulnerable experiences, but we also of course, additionally, from the experience of pain, closer to the pain, we also have the experience of power, of being in the majority, of being in a organizational perspective. Everybody has a vulnerable part and a organizational part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Intersectionality is about using our experience closer to the pain to understand other peoples experience closer to the pain, and empower each other using our organizational powers to put words on this experience, and making these not personal vulnerability but hashtags that people can share and connect and extend." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a social movement view on things, but we’re working in the government is bringing people who occupied the parliament and people who do social movements inside the administration and bridge the world view to that of the civil service like we’re all Occupiers here." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Possibly we could talk a bit more about that. How easy was it for you as a anarchist or revolutionary Occupier? How easy was it for you to go to the other side or to start working with the government? What was that journey and that thought process?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The thought process simply put is that instead of thinking each ministry as a organization that organize people toward movements and the civil services in between that absorb all the tension, we use a overview effect [laughs] to reimagine the government as a space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of asking, \"Who are the organizers? How can we arbitrate?\" which is like last century governance model, a top-down governance model, we now switch to a collaborative governance model where we ask two questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Given the different positions, are there common values, and if there are common values are there innovations that deliver those values without leaving anyone behind? Just by keeping asking those two questions, and allowing everybody, every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM to come here to talk to me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And every other Tuesday, I tour around Taiwan to talk to people to channel everybody’s thoughts, values, and ideas together, we enable a radically transparent experience of people knowing the why of the how policy making context, not just the how of policies being delivered." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Digital Minister in Mandarin, 數位政委 also mean a pluralistic minister. 數位 is several, many, like 數十位, 數百位, many, many ministers. It basically enables everybody to step in the shoes of a cabinet member to see how the cabinet deliberates policies and provide your timely input before the policy is rolled out. This is my experience, and so far it’s working really well." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Has there been any tension with the existing structures of power?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all, not at all." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "You feel that your approach has been adopted and..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. The main resistance was always from the Movement people who want a quicker implementation of the open discussion mechanisms, because that really is the common political will after the Sunflower Occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the mayors who delay on those delivery of open discussion lost their mayoral seats, and all the mayors who supported or participated in Occupy gets elected, sometimes without preparing for inauguration speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a strong common will of the people to be part of the early-stage policy-making context. The only feedback is that I’m not moving fast enough, [laughs] but there’s no resistance whatsoever about we not moving to this direction." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I didn’t know until I started thinking about you and researching you. I didn’t know too much about this. I saw the Asia Society’s speech where these slides are from, and this open government, government zero, zero government and this being about collaborative findings in common and various things. Is Taiwan one of the world leaders in this then?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it is definitely." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Could you tell us more about that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We actually export this, because the idea of gov-zero simply put is a meme, right? Any government website you find that’s bad or hard to use, you can deliver a alternative service by just changing the same website." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By gov.tw, and change the \"o\" to a \"0,\" and you get into the shadow government, so you don’t have to remember the website of the citizens’ version, because the same as governments’ version just with o changed to a 0. This idea is called forking the government, fork being taking a different path, and that we also relinquish our copyright." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When the next procurement cycle comes and the government find that this really is a good idea, and the government can just merge it in and become part of the government structure, like the inaugural g0v project, way before I joined g0v in 2013, the budget visualization is now part of join.gov.tw." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve emerged everything in, and all the 1,300 different government projects, you can click into the budget, you can ask about the spending and procurement, whatever, and the civil service actually comes publicly to answer to you without you having to go through a representative. This is of course radically open, and very few other countries are doing this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just last week g0v Italy launched with budget at g0v.it, [laughs] so they’re now starting the process that we started in 2012. Next week actually I’m going to visit Toronto and bootstrap Toronto g0v. This meme is spreading everywhere in the world." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Obviously, and this does fit into LGBTI rights in particular, but it affects a lot of people. We’ve seen a kind of populism polarizing in the US a lot and also in Europe with far right movements. We’ve just seen the election in the Brazilian far right has a lot of anti-LGBTI comments. How would you link this approach back to promoting human rights and LGBTI rights?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Populism doesn’t have to be polarizing. Of course, the current generation of social media rewards polarizing behavior, but it doesn’t have to be this way. In Taiwan we run a lot of online...like pol.is which is AI-powered conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use it to moderate conversations using AI as a new true facilitator so that you can see your feelings among all your Facebook and Twitter friends in a way that you cannot make personal attacks to each other. The way it works is like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You start as a avatar, you see your friends, and you see each others’ feelings about one particular issue. You can click Agree or Disagree. As you do, you move toward places with people feeling similar to you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What it doesn’t have is a reply button. You cannot reply to people, so you cannot make personal attacks or anything. After clicking a few Agree or Disagree, you can also share your own feelings for other people to vote on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this kind of discussion forum, we take as binding if you can find a feeling that resonates with everybody across the aisle, then we agree to hold that as the agenda for negotiation with other stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The interesting thing is this has been experimented actually in the US as well. This is from Bowling Green. They ran a local discussion on the local priorities, and always we find this shape when we define..." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah. I saw this on a site, and I didn’t quite understand it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, everybody who participate in the Bowling Green conversation, there’s more than two dozen people proposing 400 feeling, and you would think that it’s divided on party lines or on whatever level right lines, but actually there’s only five such statements that are divisive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People spend far more time on caring about things. For example, the K-12 education is important, and for example, the local Internet service provider should provide more services, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Across the aisle, regardless of where they are, conservative or liberal, left or right, they all vehemently agreed on these things. Through social media you don’t discover this because social media focus on the polarizing part." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "On the divisive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but actually a lot of people have a lot in common, and a city council can just move ahead with these things. People of course all agree with it. It’s just the space was not designed in a way that is convergent. It was designed as divergent, but this is digital technology and we can change this space." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Is that likely to happen anytime soon given that Facebook and WhatsApp in Google hold most of the...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our national e-Participation platform, the JOIN platform has 5 million active users out of 23 million people, so not too bad. We’re one-quarter there." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I think I’ve finished my questions. That’s 40 minutes actually as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s 40 minutes." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What do you think? Is there anything else you’d like to say?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Let me show you the International Space Station. [laughs] It’s also useful actually to have a conversation around, for example, a building or a new park or a new airport or whatever using this technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise people are very difficult to imagine how it would feel like to be in a new airport, in a new park and so on. Using VR technology we can project people in the hypothetical plan A, B, and C, and have a down-to-earth, literally, [laughs] discussion about those constructions and from the viewpoint from tutoring, from the viewpoint of animals and so on, and that is my active research project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re interested, it’s called Holopolis, \"holo\" as in hologram and \"polis\" as in polis. You can easily see the Earth from this vantage point, and it kind of talks to you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you can put it on and you can hold this button for a while so that it recalibrates, and you can put a glass with it. I can help you to strap things on that. You can hold this button for a while and it can calibrate, right?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What do I calibrate?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Earth should be in front of you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a menu key, but once you’re back in the application, you can use this to rotate. You can point to another star and pull the trigger to go there." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Now I think I’m on the Menu screen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can click Again to go back." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Now I’m on the other..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Now it’s on the Menu screen I think. Star Chart it says, yeah. Shall I click on Sky View?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. Star Chart is the one. Are you in Star Chart? Pull the trigger to go back to Star Chart." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Yeah. Which one’s the Play button? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let me get you back to Star Chart." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "[laughs] I never did VR before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, you just clicked Resume." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Did you notice? I spoke louder when I had on. The people always do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Yeah, that’s right, because it’s a wider space, right? Isn’t it? We’re back, and you can click the Earth, and then you can use this to rotate the Earth." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "There we go. It’s night time in London." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You use the sun to rotate the Earth. You can go to Mars if you want. Just pull the trigger." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Why is Australia so red?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "\"You are here.\"" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "What did I do when I pulled the trigger?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can click any planet, like Mars or so on. If you look at it, there’s a red circle surrounding it, like Mars or the Sun or whatever, and then you can pull the trigger with this finger. If you click twice in the trigger, you actually go to that planet, but you still have to find a planet to go first of course." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "It’s telling me about the models." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Moon?" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "The models, Malay. How I come back now? OK, I got you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe you can find the Moon, Neptune, whatever, the Sun." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "This is great fun." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is actually how exactly these planets are at the moment. It’s accurate, so you’re not looking at a fiction. [laughs] This is exactly how the planets are at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Let’s go ask Pluto how it feels about not being a planet anymore? Traveling to Pluto." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, you can travel anywhere." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "How long do you usually spend in this in a day?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just need maybe 5-10 minutes to get into a completely tranquil [laughs] state of mind." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "How does it compare to other forms of meditation you’ve tried?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is like a shortcut. This really accelerates the process. Usually I only use this for 5 or 10 minutes, but otherwise with other, like Tai-Chi or meditation, it would take me half an hour or more." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "Was meditation something you always had to do because of your heart condition?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s what I learned, because if I can regulate my breathing, then the heart doesn’t beat so fast." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "I could stay doing this all day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "It’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s really cheap. It’s not even USD200." }, { "speaker": "Rik Glauert", "speech": "And that’s just with Oculus Go, then you can get a different program?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course. You can use Cardboard or any other VR viewer, to launch \"Star Chart VR\"." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家好，很高興能夠在到加拿大的前夕——週末要去加拿大，分享開放政府聯絡人的工作——開這一次的月會，這一次的月會我們相對來講比較簡單一些，當然因為還在選舉期間，比較不會有非常多的連署案件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在實際執行上，東沙環礁公園這一案非常感謝大家的協助，我們辦理其實滿成功的，而且這也是第一次在高雄的部會場地，我覺得那個場地相當不錯，而且也是我們接下來陸續會請各位PO來擔任小桌長，也很高興國發會的朋友們身先士卒擔任小桌長，帶領大家進行討論，所以等一下當然會看到一些討論的進度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個也很高興，考試院才剛剛把跟行政院互相都同意的休假可以以小時計假的這一件事在院會通過了，這一次應該是真的，所以我們在會前之後，行政院這邊就會簽准，然後這一個案子經過相當長久的時間，終於實際各位的利害關係人都可以得到層層的結果，這也是非常高興的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在進入報告事項之前，因為昨天有一個兩週年的記者會，我入閣兩年了，PDIS的朋友們非常自發拍了一個影片，想跟大家分享一下，記者會有兩個特色，有一個影片，第二個是有一堆漫畫，漫畫非常感謝原民會、客委會等等的朋友，把開放政府聯絡人「報稅軟體難用到爆炸」的案子，用英語、日語、中文、阿美語、客語及台語等等，會議結束之後，我們就按照當時習慣或者是偏好的語言，可以儘量送禮自用兩相宜，這個是漫畫的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "影片的部分，我想就花大家3分鐘的時間，接下來在加拿大或是其他的場合都會使用這個影片來介紹開放政府及社會創新的事情，我們請馬克放一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡面有兩個要提的：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個是台南市政府現在也正式引入了開放政府聯絡人制度，也會選後才會實際上路，上路之後我想他們各局處的PO跟我們部會的PO也會有更多的傳承及交流，也非常感謝大家在第一次去他們那邊去推廣這個制度時的協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，行政院新一屆的青年諮詢委員會也即將產生，第二屆的青諮我們會按照他們的興趣參加我們協作會議，不管是旁聽或者是其他的做法，我想有新一屆青諮的關心，我們討論的協作案件，不管是來源或者是廣度等等，都可以與大家更關心的東西扣合，先這樣子跟大家進行主席致詞比平常稍微長一點的時間。進入報告事項。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "PDIS有兩位新同仁，是不是請他們簡單自我介紹？" }, { "speaker": "詹壹雯", "speech": "大家好，我是詹壹雯，上個禮拜10月22日剛加入團隊，未來會一起投入協辦開放政府的工作，請大家多多指教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王少芸", "speech": "大家好，我叫王少芸，今天剛來院裡面報到，未來協助青年事務，請大家多多指教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們從議程開始。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "首先是歷次協作會議的摘要報告，法務部PO今天有會議沒辦法出席，我代他說明：於司法警察案，國民兩黨都有委員提案，目前還沒有排審，法務部會持續追蹤這個法案的進度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我加一個，刑事訴訟法至少「推事」改成「法官」的部分，也就是最沒有爭議的部分，目前已經滿確定了，所以刑事訴訟法到一個程度之後，我想這個可以討論的範圍比較大。繼續。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來是序號37，也就是「新一代國家健保憑證規劃案」。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "主席及各位先進大家好，衛福部報告，衛福部有關於「新一代國家健保憑證規劃案」的部分，已經召開了兩場協作會議，第一場是在7月3日召開，結論有包括虛實併用，採非接觸感應的相關建議。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "8月8日決議的部分，有邀請相關的專家依不同的就醫情境，針對技術面、成本面及法規面來討論新一代健保憑證的規劃方向，並請健保署再提出幾個規劃的方案。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "接續將會在11月26日召開第三次的協作會議，會議將由健保署規劃幾個方案提供給與會者體驗及提供意見，目前規劃模擬居家情境及門診看診情境，會透過播放解說影片跟分組實際模擬，以上是目前協作會議進度報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家知道國發會最近發了一個「政府數位服務準則」（GDSP），而這個準則目前是在試用版，會試用一年，這個是把這幾次的協作，也就是健保憑證規劃、報稅軟體等等以使用者為中心，把使用者放到最前面規劃的想法，之後會慢慢變成數位服務建置基本的藍圖。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個過程中，團隊會不斷幫大家做一些自我介紹表、招標或者是先做一些設計相關的文件等等，這個是測試版，如果大家有碰到任何問題或者是意見，都可以作修改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我之前有一個具體的建議：國發會幫忙輔導GDSP的執行團隊，好比像第三次協作會議或者是類似這一種比較是數位服務的協作會議上，我想也可以適度邀請他們派一些人來旁觀或者是旁聽，之後在執行的時候，比較不會跟我們在協作會議的這一套方式、理念脫節，而是可以有經驗地傳承，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "序號40的東沙環礁國家公園案，先請海委會。" }, { "speaker": "海委會", "speech": "主席、各位與會的先進，謹就東沙環礁國家公園案說明如下：" }, { "speaker": "海委會", "speech": "本議題先於10月26日在高雄海委會辦理協作會議，邀請相關學者、環保團體及遊艇業者來共同討論。" }, { "speaker": "海委會", "speech": "在這個會議當中，本會提出報告，內政部也提出報告。" }, { "speaker": "海委會", "speech": "會中提及對於海洋國家生態保育的預算配比應該要有擴展的空間，他們建議能夠擴增海洋相關經費。" }, { "speaker": "海委會", "speech": "依此本會會依循聯合國可持續發展目標，就東沙生態旅遊在經濟、社會、環境的主軸兼顧之下，來選擇最佳的永續衡平方案，以上說明及報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "請內政部。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "主席、各位長官大家好，謹就內政部的部分說明如下：" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "國家公園設立的目的，主要是為保護國家特有的自然風景、野生物及史蹟，並供國民育樂及研究，行政院95年底核定東沙環礁國家公園計畫的時候，建議應優先辦理資源復育監測及生態研究的工作，復育到一定成果後，方考慮推動生態旅遊與環境教育工作。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "依106年調查監測成果顯示，東沙外環礁珊瑚覆蓋率已達50％，最高的覆蓋率更達80％以上，整體的珊瑚生態系已趨於穩定。東沙環礁擁有豐富的海洋、島嶼生態資源，具有世界級的珊瑚礁景觀，深具發展環境教育與生態旅遊的前例，海管處刻正委託辦理東沙環礁國家公園生態旅遊規劃暨可行性評估的研究案。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "未來東沙環礁國家公園生態旅遊之推動，內政部將配合政策方向，參考各方的建議，以環境資源保育、復育與教育為基礎，在機能相容及符合生態承載量的前提下檢討現有的軟、硬體設施及能量，協調相關機關建構東沙生態旅遊機制，朝永續生態島嶼目標努力，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，剛剛海委會有提到關於潟湖清污是什麼議題，我們沒有聽得很清楚，是不是可以解釋一下？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "航道清淤。" }, { "speaker": "林鴻鈞", "speech": "主席、各位與會代表大家好，海巡署在這邊報告，潟湖清污是我們有報一個潟湖清污的案子，爭取公共建設，如果大家有東沙島的概念，中間有潟湖，那個地方清淤以後，我們預計停100噸，目前島上是只有20噸，所以會往上提升我們的執行能量，因此我們委員會的長官有提到我們會提升我們的能量，是指這個部分，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是指泊船碼頭的航道？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是繞一個小圈。" }, { "speaker": "林鴻鈞", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是出口那邊的航道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來兩邊是滿互相符合的、相當不錯，一開始海委會簡報裡面有重複提到聯合國Sustainable Development的概念，其實那一次我們協作會議的時候，包含小桌長、所有工作人員都是穿著聯合國SDGs 17個顏色的衣服，我覺得滿有潛移默化的效果，無形之中讓大家透過經濟面向的旅遊業者、環境面向的環團及社會面向來的一些當地組織者等等都可以瞭解到這三個可以彼此加強，不一定是像以前彼此取消或彼此拔河的情況，所以我覺得永續發展目標的這一件事本身讓以前各執一詞的人可以用兼顧的方法去想，我們會用這17個顏色進行普及的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，SDGs確實有兩個翻譯，簡報裡面也用兩個翻譯，一個是「可持續」，一個是「永續」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己覺得，「可持續」是想到一代、兩代，「永續」可以到三至七代，意思有點不一樣，所以建議以後還是用「永續」為主。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "下一個報告案，請芳睿說明數位議題分析(IMI)，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "跟大家報告一下，議題分析之前我們在做協作會議的時候，我們會在會議通知附上議題分析表，幫助各個部會可以針對議題的資料蒐集整理能有一定的格式，這個資料可以結構化分享跨部會的內容。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "有鑒於議題分析的格式已經有調整過幾個版本，也有從當中各個PO跟業務單位在做議題、整料整理時的回饋有作一些優化，我們現在期待再往下一個版本前進。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "現在的議題分析表是紙本的方式整理各部會間資料的部分，我們會希望為了達到在資料整理時，不管是蒐集整理或者是分析，都可以更方便各部會在跨部會整理時協助及更有效率，因此我們推出了一個數位的版本，讓大家不一定要在一個部會填完之後要到下一個部會調整，可能沒有辦法很立即協作這個問題，我們希望透過數位的版本處理，這個是可以增進資料交換跟協作的方式，可以更快速。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "另外一個好處是，因為其實議題跟議題間都有一些關聯，並不是今天處理這一個議題之後，未來不會再處理相類似的議題，確保我們的資料可以累積且後續還可以有機會繼續應用，如果把資料存在資料庫的話，其實後續要再做任何的資料調閱都可以更方便。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "目前每一個格子，如果今天有出現投票進入協作議題的話，我們可以在左邊新增議題相關的資料，進去的填寫方式跟現有的架構是一樣的，就是會需要填問題的細節，當問題細節出來之後，我們就可以為議題分類，因此有問題面向、相對應的解法等等，就可以依照原本議題分析表的邏輯來填寫。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "也會有不同的視覺可以輸出，可以輸出像excel的表格來閱讀這整個整理的資料，依照視覺化可以做這兩種不同的輸出。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "目前現在的做法做出來是可以用的，但是我們希望實際上讓PO可以有另外一個選擇來做議題分析，因此希望可以更完整，在真正使用之前，我們希望可以徵求五位PO可以給我們30分鐘的時間，讓我們遠距測試，也就是比較方便的地方，只要跟我們連線，我們就可以做這樣的測試。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這一期剛好有一位實習生可以幫忙協助做遠距數位產品的測試，因此也會加入線上遠距測試的工作團隊一員，有開過協作會議的PO們，也有跟業務單位一起review這一些資料的PO們，歡迎跟我們報名，但是如果沒有使用過的，我們也很希望收到大家的意見。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以，不侷限於有沒有參加過協會或者是寫過議題分析表，都可以跟我們報名，再次徵求五位PO可以在後續幾個月作線上的測試，如果沒有五個人的話，我們會點名。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "芳睿有截止日期嗎？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "兩個禮拜內。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果沒有的話，不要點名，我們用抽籤的，好不好？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有報名的話，我們就用公開亂數投票決定，以後五千人連署說不定也可以這樣（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這其實是政府數位準則beta版裡面最重要的，也就是先瞭解試用者的需求，我們不會硬灑一個新的系統下去，大家實際上是如何用紙本的系統，怎麼樣數位系統一定要比紙本好用，即使沒有辦法一下子更好用，至少達到併行情況的時候，不要浪費大家的力氣，可以逐步取代紙本的作業流程，可以讓之後的工作節省時間，所謂自己的香檳要自己喝，所以這一整套的開發會用比較比較切合我們「政府數位服務準則」的方法來跟大家協作，謝謝芳睿的貢獻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do在投票之前，好像只有兩個，一個是「大家午安」，有一位NCC的PO說「政委您辛苦了!!今天讓報紙標題黨作弄啦!! 」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我講一下，如果大家有看我的澄清稿，我第一次用行政院的即時澄清系統，也很感謝Kolas發言人的教學，其實我針對的目的是編輯排版，就是實際排到紙上，讓人有不當的聯想。真的要講的話，記者本身內文的產出，並沒有什麼太大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個確實是我們現在碰到媒體常常發生的情況，也就是記者好不容易寫了我覺得也沒有什麼問題的稿子，但事實上是實際刊到紙本上的時候，用一些配色、排版及插畫等等的東西，讓人做一些引申和片面的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我的澄清稿其實是專門針對編排的部分，不涉及記者本身的工作，因為有逐字稿，所以我特別留一下這樣的紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友表示說應該用協作的方式來產生系統，而不是用硬撒的方式來產生系統，是一個不錯的主意，至於抽籤的機制，我們之後再跟致翔討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友問說「請問報紙標題黨是……」，其實不知道是比較幸福的（笑）；這是今天中國時報頭版的標題，他們以前也運用過漫畫的形式，讓大家有一些比較不當的聯想。那個標題簡單來講是，其實我昨天在兩週年記者會的時候，我說「院的立場很簡單：不要自己造謠，如果有些片面訊息的話，我們快速澄清，這個是不變的立場」，然後就開始論述，但「行政院的立場很簡單」的前提，中國時報在組版時把它拿掉，抽換成「打擊假訊息」，這樣讓有些看的人會覺得這件事本身是行政院的謠言，讓人家有一種不當的聯想。這其實完全是靠美術及排版的操作，也就是所謂的「標題黨」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有點進去看的話，就會發現標題跟內文是滿不一樣，所以我們也即時進行主動的澄清。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果sli.do還可以的話，是不是進入協作議題的說明？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我提一件事，從上次月會開始到現在，我們鼓勵各部會的PO來參加我們的協作會議，也有PO主動報名當協作會議的小桌長。接下來的每一場協作會議，原則上都會找兩位PO來擔任小桌長的工作。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我找人的邏輯滿簡單的，我會找跟議題有一點關聯，但又不至於影響到有很強烈的立場讓人家質疑小桌長不夠中立，所以未來會用這樣的方式來詢問PO有沒有意願來擔任小桌長。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，這邊可以小小加碼一下，擔任小桌長的話，可以獲得唐鳳身上的T-shirt一件（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有錯，這個是工作人員制服。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們接下來進入討論事項。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "到目前為止我沒有收到部會主動提案，所以我再次確認有沒有人要當場提案？如果沒有的話，我們請國發會針對兩個未成案的案件來說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "大家好，依參與平台實施要點，因應11月份的選舉，「提點子」暫停提案與附議，所以本次協作議題的建議，我們針對未成案的議題來作建議及權責機關徵詢。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "我們這一次選了兩個未成案的議題，第一個是「塑膠吸管 全面收費1元」，在2018年有四個相關提案，其實有正反的意見；第二個是「不孕症治療相關補助」，這個議題是從2016年至2018年有四個相關提案，主要是解決少子化的方法之一，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "兩個部會有沒有想要說明？" }, { "speaker": "游琇如", "speech": "環保署說明，環保署針對吸管的部分，已經在107年6月8日預告一次用塑膠吸管限制使用對象的實施方式，有規定公部門、公立學校、百貨公司、購物中心、連鎖速食店等四類限制使用對象，不得提供一次用塑膠吸管，提供內食、餐飲使用，而且將在本月下旬召開公聽會。" }, { "speaker": "游琇如", "speech": "前述一次用塑膠習慣限制使用的規定，是不得提供的管制方式，相較於收費提供更為嚴格，所以建議不需要納入協作議題，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，所以即使他們提的狀態，其實你們有更多的做法。所以最多就是對他做回應，而不需要再次協作，聽起來是這樣子？" }, { "speaker": "游琇如", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "有關於不孕症治療的相關補助，這部分本部國民健康署在104年就已經優先補助中低收入戶及低收入戶，每例每年最高補助達到10萬元。如希望擴大補助人工生殖的對象，需有相對應的預算。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過因為快四千人，其實幾乎要成案了。我想要問一下，你們現在的立場是如果有穩定的預算，你們不反對，但目前沒有穩定的預算來源，是不是？聽起來是這個意思；或其實也沒有擴大推動短期之內的可行性，我想確認一下實際的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "據我初步的瞭解，本部國健署曾積極希望爭取額度外預算，但未果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以意思是，他們覺得這並不是能夠提高出生率？意思是讓本來會用自然生殖去用人工生殖？" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "補助主要是減輕不孕症夫妻的經濟負擔。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不是很理解這個邏輯，我可能沒有聽懂。不孕症的意思，難道不是如果運用人工生殖，就沒有辦法生殖的意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還是說，即使不補助，無論如何想生的還是會生，所以補助不會提高想要生的人的數量？我剛剛聽起來是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "或許透過這個方式可以增加出生數，但是對總生育率提昇可能有限。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "幫助有限這個我可以理解。說「完全沒有幫助」，好像哪裡怪怪的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這樣大家都滿清楚這樣的說明。看有沒有其他部會要補充？請。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "我想請問一下，這個議題的對象有多少？如果有補助或者是不補助，影響不孕夫妻或者是生不出來的夫妻，我不知道衛福部有沒有調查過？其實一般接觸時，常常面臨到有很多男女是不結婚，也有遇到很多夫妻結婚之後不生小孩，我們在聊的時候會問為什麼不生小孩，跟你不熟的時候會說不想生，熟了以後會說生不出來，也就是不孕症。" }, { "speaker": "王明源", "speech": "我相信會有人是想生而生不出來的不孕症，也會到處求醫，我知道求助的費用確實是滿高的，是不是可以確定目標群的對象有多少，如果真的影響到的人又有多少，再來評估後續的效力要執行，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也是看到媒體的說法，我也不知道是不是很正確，七對夫妻當中有一對面臨生育問題，就診率不到這個一半，我不確定這個數字是怎麼來的，因為性平會一向都有作類似的統計，我不曉得現在大家有沒有更多的數字，如果沒有的話，我們會補在逐字稿裡面，反正有十個工作天的時間可以編輯，看衛福部或者是其他朋友有沒有要補充？有關於受眾的組成。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "這方面數據，我會再查一下補充報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有關係，我們就補在逐字稿裡面就好。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "跟著前面兩位發言的長官，我自己也滿建議這個案子增加一些說明。因為剛剛衛福部口頭敘述的是：如果增加額度外的預算，只會增加試管嬰兒的數量，對出生率的增加是很有限的，我認為這樣的論述如果未來逐字稿公開，網友可能會滿不容易理解的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因此，我很建議衛福部是不是可以提供更完整的說明，未來逐字稿公開的時候，也比較不會給部裡帶來困擾。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "比較不會被排版誤導（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有太多問題的話，我們是不是就進入投票……請。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不孕症那一案，我覺得有一點疑慮，因為其實是一群人希望可以使用健保卡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也或者是別的支出。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個時候是有一些隱藏利害關係人消失，也就是納稅人或者是繳交健保的，我不知道這個意見如何做，如果到時真的成案了，可能需要衛福部幫忙多煩惱一下，因為會有人的意見是，我們健保現在都已經很不夠了，為何還要因為你想生小孩而特別補助你，會有這一種意見出來，當然也有可能他們沒有面臨到這樣的困難，所以會有這樣的想法，因此到時請衛福部多多幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想之前這並不是新的政策，之前已經有做過評估，我想那個評估也可以附上，如果那個評估可以公開的話，這有一點像之前法務部有附為何18歲民法、刑法及選罷法部分分開看待等等的書面評估，我們放在逐字稿，其實後來也有青年諮詢委員去看，我覺得這是滿好社會溝通的一部分，麻煩看一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do上提到「桌長誘因請加碼政委簽名T恤！」送T-shirt還不夠，應該要有政委簽名的T-shirt，這當然是沒有問題的（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就進入投票。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "請問未成案還是要進入協作會議麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為有的時候還沒有成案，但是因為人數真的滿多了，所以我們有一定信心，如果我們邀五個人的話，應該至少來三、四個，像之前有一些例子，大概都可以之前進入協作，如果這邊的主張是我們再等久一點，或是需要等久一點的時間準備等等，我們開完票之後，就很尊重部會的看法。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "會議之前曾與本部國健署討論過，該署希望暫時不要列入協作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為恆春旅遊醫院也因為協作，所以爭取到經費，也不能說協作跟經費無關，但是如果同仁覺得需要重新設定這一個議題，那倒是可以的，因為像推廣東沙旅遊，其實就是在海委會的建議之下，我們從要不要開放或者是怎麼評估開放的可能性，在內政部及海委會的共同建議之下，變成如何讓開發比較有效力，而是如何規劃生態旅遊的可行性，但是做完這個重新定義之後，忽然就變成跟爭取經費比較相關的討論題目，所以我想大家都滿有經驗的，有這樣子可能性的話，也可以請同仁考慮一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果最後同仁還是覺得無論如何即使是能夠重新框到跟經費有關的討論項目，還是一定要五千人才討論的話，最後會尊重機關的意見，只是不一定按照提案人所寫的方式，我們一定要完全按照他的討論框架來討論，只要包含他的討論框架就可以了，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就來投票，現在是42分，我們到45分的時候開票。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想結果滿清楚的，當然衛福部還沒有取得機關同仁最後的可否。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們的規則，一向是機關同仁最後對於未成案的議題一定要等到成案才討論的話，我們會尊重機關，不是說我裁示什麼東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這個麻煩衛福部這邊再跟機關同仁進行溝通。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們當然希望有討論的空間跟可能性才會這樣子投，但如果機關同仁堅決反對，按照我們的規則，未成案的議題協作與否，仍然是機關同仁說了算，因此這個投票結果，只是給大家參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「全面收費1元」的部分剛剛解釋滿清楚，而且也沒有到50％，所以不需要進入協作，如果大家都ok的話，先這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有別的想法，是不是下一個議程？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "沒有其他的議程。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有臨時動議？看大家有沒有什麼想要討論或者是分享的部分，不然就要進入大家拿漫畫的階段。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "是拿進來嗎？或者是離席的時候請各部會帶一套回去？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以。每一種語言都有一本，按照各位固有語言之族群或是國外朋友去進行討論，想要再次感謝原民會跟客委會的翻譯，尤其是阿美族語的老師，是我們送印前一天趕著翻出來，發言人也很appreciate。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看看各位有沒有朋友覺得要翻成發文，或是在場也有會法文的朋友，或者是翻成其他原住民族語言的話，我們全部的版權都是拋棄的，所以任何想要額外翻譯的朋友，也都歡迎跟PDIS聯絡，如果沒有其他動議的話我們就……套數不夠嗎？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "夠。另外國發會上次有幫我們擔任東沙案的小桌長，也許可以請他們發表一下心得。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對嘛！這個應該一開始就要排報告案的，我想我們簡單分享一下子。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "大家好，我是國發會PO，當初會當小桌長其實是高分的鼓勵，我覺得當小桌長滿有意思的，基本上每次協作會議國發會都會派員參加，我們都是參與者，並不是當小桌長帶領大家，我們看雨蒼、芳睿、馬克、致翔當小桌長討論。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "當旁觀者覺得非常輕鬆的樣子，但是事實上我跟雨潔要上臺之前，雨潔在禮拜四開完會的時候，我就說我要打球，她說她要買飯回去吃一吃再讀小桌長的資料，我說要去打球，其實也是釋放壓力，表面上不緊張，但事實上是非常緊張。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "因為那一場的與會者比較特別，滿多的學者專家、NGO的團體，他們其實在這個議題領域是非常專業的，我跟雨潔其實對這一個領域並不熟悉，所以一上去的時候，無所適從，甚至不曉得要如何控制場面；說實話，我一開始滿緊張的，因此請教馬克是不是可以協助我，政委辦公室同仁都非常好，沒有問題，所以我當小桌長的壓力就釋放一半了。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "先前去台南市政府導入這一個制度的時候，我也有去協助他們當小桌長，我一直以為台南市政府跟海委會這一個議題的經驗是非常相似的，實際上又是不一樣的情形，我實際在帶的時候，我忘記是哪一個單位發言，應該是遊艇業者開始發言的時候，一發不可收拾，我毫無經驗，所以不曉得如何打斷人家，而我過去的養成教育是人家說話時打斷人家是不禮貌的，所以就讓他一直講。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "然後海管處的處長出來，接著也一直講，心想這樣30分鐘的協作大概就完蛋了!，幸虧他們講了快10分鐘，當場馬克趕快介入切斷、Wendy也在旁邊協助。我感覺，台上1分鐘，台下是要練習操作非常久的。" }, { "speaker": "劉宗熹", "speech": "我覺得這次經驗非常有趣，並且學習如何不要放入個人意見，以及學習如何切斷人家的話，而不讓發言者生氣是需有技巧的。且要整個協作是可以讓大家熱烈討論，而不讓場面失控，這裡面有非常多的眉角。如果下一次還再徵求要不要當小桌長，我一定還會說我願意，因為我覺得這個是很不錯的經驗，以上分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "剛剛宗熹說他願意再當小桌長時，我心裡是OS是他這個禮拜結束後就要放長假去了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "關於小桌長的經驗，當時很緊張，而前置作業是先把逐字稿看完後記起來，瞭解狀況有助於當日的討論。覺得有幫助的是前一天的沙推，有扮演積極、反對派的同仁，至少會知道最差的情況是什麼，雖然隔一天會緊張，但其實也只能豁出去。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "而台南市那一場我也有當小桌長，但是當時與會者專注在抱怨為為要當PO，沒有要討論對當日設定要討論的主題，完全失控，因為有台南市的失敗經驗，對於海委會的小桌長工作，還滿擔心會整個很失控，可能因為我表現的太緊張，所以雨蒼跟我同一組，覺得中間有一段與會者一直發表時，會不知要如何把場面接回來，這時就是聽跟抄下與會者談話的重點，而雨蒼也進來幫忙協助主持，依雯也有協助跟與會者提醒議題對焦的重點，等到與會者發表到一個段落，再把抄下來的重點跟剛才發表的與會者確認，然後問大家有沒有什麼要補充的意見，大概就可以了，雖然覺得滿有趣的；但是如果下一次要參加的話，我還是要想一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我們都是說轉譯、主持、紀錄三個不同技術的分享。在業界「主持技術」通常叫做「引導技術」，但是在主持小桌討論的時候，主持人的姿態還是主持，因為如果是一個你完全是服務業的引導師態度，也許就會被大家的節奏帶著走，所以當時為何不用一般的翻譯為「引導」，而是叫做「主持」，是希望小桌長還是有一定程度主導討論的能力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過，教「引導學」的書有很多可以參考，我自己學的是「ORID」，那本書是叫做「學問」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果用「引導學」搜尋的話，都有比較近的書參考，但是看再多書，還不如對著錄影、不斷放錄影，好比說看這個人講這個點上，是不是那個時候不要打斷，走到他旁邊，稍微碰一下他的肩膀，複述一下他的問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我是不斷用錄影回放練的，看到我自己的不足之處，當然前一、兩次做引導的時候，一定會有各種狀況，這個是為什麼我們要沙推的目的，把最壞的狀況模擬出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實實際上場並沒有那麼糟糕，只會越來越好，進步的速度也會很快，所以不用那麼擔心，T-shirt事後也可以簽名的，如果需要的話；看大家有沒有其他的想法？" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "是否可再次確認，如果沒有成案的議題……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是有否決權的。" }, { "speaker": "王玲紅", "speech": "謝謝主席保留這個案子還有討論的空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，如果到最後，因為作業都是十個工作天，所以十個工作天之內，如果機關決定動用你們的否決權，這個投票就不算，事實上就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有其他的想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有其他想法的話，我們相當有效率結束會議，請大家拿漫畫，送禮、自用兩相宜，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "The first thing I want to know is about this message on your card: \"Taiwan Can Help\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the Sustainable Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Excellent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m in charge of social innovation..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "In addition to your day job?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I’m the digital minister in charge of social innovation, open government, and youth empowerment. All of this is guided by..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "By the digital minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...by the Sustainable Goals." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "How interesting. You’re the first digital minister, aren’t you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s a new ministry and everything?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a new post." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not a new ministry though. We have eight horizontal ministers and 32 vertical ministers. I’m one of the horizontal ones that coordinates all the ministries. My office is one person from each ministry, maximum. Theoretically, I have 34 staff. Now it’s 22, but you get the idea." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "[laughs] It should be." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a cross-silo design." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I understand perfectly. I have a similar type of job. I work across all of our product business units. My job is portfolio and architecture as opposed to a single product." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Horizontal power." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Yours is a little bit bigger." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s the power of horizontal, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, and you’re going to bring this into a bigger culture as well." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I’m trying to, yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It will be an interesting exercise, definitely. I was really excited to read more about your work. I had read a little bit about you, so it’s very interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is there anything in particular you will like to talk about for this meeting?" }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can talk for hours, but..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "You can start talking about your scrum board out front." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "We were excited to see that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just met the global VP and the greater China CEO, Wing Kin Cheung, from IBM yesterday." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He’s new I think also to that post as of two months ago or three months ago. He’s in charge of hybrid cloud..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s right. That’s our world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...which will be your world. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I stressed the point that when Microsoft acquired GitHub, they sent the right person. There is a real conversation on \"Hacker News,\" Reddit, and all the forums. They made it very clear it is part of the Hit Refresh Plan, so that GitHub will guide their value instead of the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s so interesting that you say that. I was meeting with the gentleman who is now going to be the CEO of GitHub. I was telling my team that the analogy is very similar. Microsoft specifically has said, \"They are an independent company. We need them to be independent. Their developer credibility is so important.\"" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "He was saying it was true. They really are hands-off. He’s reporting to Satya. It’s almost the same structure as what IBM is talking about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It is important because, as you know, most of the open source code repositories of the world are sitting in GitHub right now. It’s in their interest to do that. Microsoft, as you know, has become a huge open source fan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. They joined the Open Innovation Network, which is a concrete action." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Are you still contributing to the open source communities?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I like to say that on GitHub or similar communities, we move at the speed of trust. Without the goodwill and trust, the so-called huge network of people doesn’t mean anything because people will just migrate to GitLab or something overnight. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I’m curious, in addition to your mandate with the Digital Ministry, are you also taking that open source culture and trying to instill more of that transparency?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "The thing I find most interesting in talking to governments all over the world is, and I know you do, too, their attempt to try to become more transparent in the open source way when it is almost the opposite of how government functions, which is much more hierarchical, command and control." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, the old power." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "What’s been your experience with that so far?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very easy because I had a public ask me anything negotiation for one month before actually getting into the digital minister’s post." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My job description is crowd-sourced so to speak. There’s three compact that the collective intelligence channeled [laughs] through this process. The premier, it’s like, \"Take it or leave it, but this is my compact.\" Very simply put, the three is radical transparency, voluntary association, and location independence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Concretely speaking, radical transparency means every single meeting that I chair and every single visit from any..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Vendor or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...lobbyist, vendor, media, journalism, or anything, we make a full transcript, published 10 days after each meeting and 10 working days after each internal meeting. People get to understand the why, the context of policy making instead of just the what. This is, I think, one of the most important thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In our Freedom of Information Act, it says, in the drafting stage, conversation is not to be published, which is the same as everywhere in the world, but there was a exception clause. If it serves the public interests, it may be released, at the judgment of the minister of course. As my working condition, everything I see is of public interest to publish." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is my working condition." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Whether they want to listen to it or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. I published more than 200. There’s more transcripts now. It’s almost like investigative journalist inside the government." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, of course, I cannot touch state secret. If they run a military drill, I just take a day off. I still don’t know where the bunkers are. That’s my first condition." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s good to know. We’re on our own if something happens while we’re here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is voluntary association, meaning that I don’t take orders and I don’t give orders. I give requests for comments. I take requests for comments. Because of this, all the different teammates joining my team, actually their ministry is still paying their salary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They rank themselves. We learn to work out loud using free software like Sandstorm Wekan, Rocket.Chat, and so on, so that they can bring the culture back. We have a team of participation officer in every ministry that replicates this work style." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "You’re going to have to come back to this and talk about what those people are finding, their experience. I want to hear more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because they don’t take any orders from me, they basically collaborate exactly the same way as we do in the open source community. We make sure that the innovations that we roll out are Pareto improvements. They’re not sacrificing any ministries." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I think we can learn from this." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Maybe that’s a model we can borrow, almost have people come and then take it back. That’s brilliant." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the second thing. Finally, the last one is location independence, which means that I get to work, like here my usual office." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a more formal meeting, but we had our previous meetings in the Social Innovation Lab. Wherever I am working, I’m working. [laughs] I spend almost half my days overseas. Next week, I’m going to be in Canada for more than a week. I was just returning from New York from the General Assembly, the UN season, and then in many in countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, I bring back those innovative social experiment. This one is a self-driving tricycle that’s just running around in my office with the Media Lab in MIT. This is just so that people hear autonomous driving, and they think something that’s smaller than they are. It’s entirely open hardware, open source that they can tinker. Just with any college student, they can change how it expresses emotions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because this tricycle, it doesn’t hurt anyone if it runs into something, [laughs] so people learn to co-domesticate, instead of the fear, uncertainty, and doubt around trucks or whatever other things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Location independence is very important because I get to tour around Taiwan. I get to have interns all around the world and in Taiwan. As long as they can log in to the Sandstorm platform, they’re considered in work. This serves as a example for the entire public service now to adopt teleworking principles, which was not a thing in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s correct." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Teleworking, in turn, enables full accountability. If you’re remote piloting a truck, the entire transcript of recording is part of the flow, but if you have to install IoT sensors in every truck, that’s not going to happen. Teleworking by itself enables accountability. That’s my compact. So far, it’s gone really, really well." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Are you involved at all in any initiatives to also increase the number of women getting into coding and to STEM?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Diversity, yes, of course. This Social Innovation Lab itself has hosted the R-Ladies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many other, like Rails Girls, PyLadies, and so on. Long as they can say which sustainable goal that they’re working towards, like gender equality, equality for all, or quality education, that’s the two easy one. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As long as they can declare, \"We’re working on #SDG4 and #SDG5 and #SDG10,\" they get free access to the venue, free access to all the equipment, and things like that. All we ask is that they declare which SDGs they’re working toward." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "What do you know of Red Hat? How are we working together with the ministry now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first thing I did as the digital minister is to recompile the Fedora kernel..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Nice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...for our internal cloud." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Excellent. I love it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The old kernel doesn’t support Linux Container and cgroups. I want to set up the Sandstorm cluster, the Docker orchestration and Kubernetes, and things like that. The old kernel just doesn’t cut it, and so I’ve just recompiled the kernel, which is very symbolic. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Yes, it is. I caught that symbol as well." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s saying, \"We’re not really subverting the old power, but we’re creating a new kernel and gradually, like Buckminster Fuller said, make the old model obsolete.\" That’s the first one. After that, we look at our baseline for our government’s operating systems. RHEL and Windows 7+ are the two ones..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Standards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...that people are allowed to use. I started to look into the initiatives that RH is working on. I found a few Linux Foundation initiatives, for example, the Open API standard is part of your API First strategy. We just hijacked it [laughs] before it’s even published." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Open API 3.0, when it’s in beta, we translated that and adopt it as the national standard. Fortunately, the final version is very minor difference. [laughs] We’re now Open API by default, and it’s part of our GDSP, Government Digital Service Principle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s another initiative that you are working which is called SPDX, which is a declaration of all the open source component in a vendor, so that system integrators are not held liable for things that they should not be held liable. Incompatible licenses are discovered early in the process instead of very late in the process, which creates a huge job opportunity for lawyers I’m sure..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...but a mess for everybody else. We also adopted the manifest as our procurement standard. Now, if any vendor working on any project says, \"We can only produce something that’s human-readable, but not open API,\" or if they say, \"We would like to use some proprietary software because AGPL or GPO is antithetical to our procurement strategy,\" and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The procuring agency, actually, we have specific wording that says they’re now disqualified because they’re not being professional. At zero or very little cost, implement Open API and declare the open source manifest is considered as part of professionalism criteria in procurement." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the extent [laughs] of my work towards...In education, of course, we’re promoting open source by default. If they graduate and choose to join proprietary software, that’s their choice, but in basic education, essentially, if people learn something and the vendor goes away are they change their mind, it is, of course, not a good idea for anybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We roll out TensorFlow, Raspberry Pi, or whatever equipments instead of proprietary solutions. We task each school to develop their own what we call the digital awareness and media literacy education materials based on free software ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I use free software because the Freedom Zero, the freedom to use for any purpose, is free from surveillance and so on, is equally important to the open source, which is the next three freedoms. That’s it." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s interesting. Is there collaboration a lot with Taiwan’s tech industry with the stuff you’re doing in the universities?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. We have a program called University Social Responsibility, called USR. Very simply put, it’s the university working with the community. It could be a open street map community. It could be a Wikipedia community. It could be any community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As part of their undergrad course, for two years, the student has just to join the community, pick a social or environmental issue and work towards sustainability. It’s going to count as their capstone project. If they \"fail,\" it’s not a problem, because it’s part of their learning process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they succeed in some way, they get to publish and they get credit just by participating in the community and solving a real social problem. We allocate a lot of budget in that because it’s the first time the university think itself as a hub for communities instead of just people in higher education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, they propose a two-year plan. If that works out, we give them money for another three years. Instead of quarterly KPIs or something, it’s entirely co-created agenda-setting. It’s been running for two or three years now to very good effort." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re now additionally starting next year to SDG index all their work so the USR people, if the students graduate, they can talk with the CSR people or the impact investment people, the venture philanthropy people, and just carry the project into social entrepreneurship." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s interesting. Your title and role, I’m finding it all over the world that a lot of governments are building an open source cloud platform for developers, either citizen developers or other government agencies. Is that something that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Sandstorm platform." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s Sandstorm? That’s the same thing? Is that for agencies as well as citizens? Anyone can use that platform?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can use the platform. Anyone with a g0v.tw email address can upload their own apps for everybody to use." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s almost a marketplace as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sandstorm stands for sandbox, right? [laughs] We asked our top-notch cybersecurity white hats -- they’re second place at Defcon or something -- to attack this entirely open source, container-based system. For half a year, they filed three minor CBEs. That’s like medals for them. The presidents meet them, and they’re paid very well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, they declared that this is the most secure container-based platform that they found so far. After that, we allow all the public service to write apps. There’s apps that order lunch box together or something. That’s also a very [laughs] simple thing, but because of the sandbox thing, the single sign-on, and things, they can just upload to the thing and just run it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there’s something in the community that we think are really good...These are staples like Rocket.Chat...ownCloud and Wekan." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Task and project management." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, I personally maintain the spreadsheet part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called EtherCalc." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s your evening job." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my evening job. If we see a new open source innovation that’s really good, like there’s a Taiwanese start-up called HackMD that does a WYSIWYG markdown editor that’s collaborative and that supports UML, Gant charts, and all sort of nice interactive features." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We think it’s better than Etherpad, and so we work with them and incorporate that into the Sandstorm platform so that we don’t have to maintain two branches going forward. We’re doing this in a way..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Is everything in English on Sandstorm?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s also translated over to French and..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "OK, so there’s..." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "Are they sharing the costs with each other?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, they are. We’re working with the Digital Nations too. Canada, in particular, is..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I was just going to ask you if you’re working...I met with the digital minister in British Columbia and we had a really interesting conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I met, virtually, [laughs] Derek Alton, who is planning this. I’m going to Canada this weekend to meet them in person." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I think they’re actually ahead. I think their digital initiatives are ahead of a lot of countries. The BC gov cloud platform is becoming a life of its own. We worked with them really closely on that. I think it’s really interesting to see the dynamic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The name of our office is Public Digital Innovation Space, PDIS. When I visited the UK, I met half of us, the Public Digital, [laughs] the original GDS people. They’re also advising the Canada folks." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "The UK is doing some really interesting things, as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the Ministry of Fun, DCMS, we met with the D, C and M. Not sport yet." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of our service designer and consultant used to work for Policy Lab UK, and so we have a lot of common connections together." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "The UK cloud is also really growing quickly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s really interesting." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "That is wonderful. I’ve been really interested to understand this. How is the fast-paced work that you’re doing sitting the rest of the public service, in the more traditional departments?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The participation officers network, the PO network, which really is at the core of this plan, the idea is that they can also then spread this horizontal working idea to their agencies, like a fractal. Truth to be told, out of 32 agencies or so, maybe only 6 or 7 is now adopting this horizontal working methods." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because I’m by voluntary association, I don’t go to the Minister of Defense and say, \"Tomorrow, you’re going to be radically transparent.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That would be an interesting conversation..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it would be a very interesting conversation." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, we don’t have people from Defense in our office yet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But we have people from Foreign Affairs, people from Interior, Culture, and so on. These more people-facing, more diplomatic ministries, they’re all very enthusiastic to adopt this collaborative approach." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Out of the six municipalities which all signed the Open Data Charter, they are also looking into something like this. Tainan City just adopted the same participation officer network, which is great. We have some comics to show it, so maybe we can give you a skit -- it’s in six languages -- about the collaboration, innovation, and design thinking process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s our educational material in all the six languages." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That would be very interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Other municipalities would depend on how well-equipped their CIOs are. Taipei City is in a very good position because they have a CIO and a PMO, a project management office. I think Taoyuan City is also moving along really nicely." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I would think so since they have so much IT there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Kaohsiung City also is working with smart city PMO stuff. That leaves New Taipei and Taichung. Taichung actually has the fastest plan, but the city council has been blocking it forever. We expect that will change after the elections." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After the election, if things go well, Xinbei and Taichung will follow, and then we’ll have a really good six-municipality network to implement this plan." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "Sorry. How do you define the success of your organization? What’s the definition of success for you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s our metrics, right?" }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our main metric, our core value is trust, trust between the people caring about the economy, environment, and society, as well as the trust a public administration place on the people. That is to say, the government has to trust people first." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there’s 5,000 people on the street e-petitioning and so on, we have metrics that measures how willing is the public service and how confident is the public service to engage them directly and invite people who complain to the kitchen, so to speak, to co-create. That’s our main measurement metric." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our e-participation platform, join.gov.tw, which combine participatory budgeting, regulatory pre-announcement, e-petition, you name it, is 5 million active users out of 23 million Taiwanese people..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Wow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...like one quarter of the population. That’s a really good indicator." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re looking to doubling that in the next few years." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s on gov.tw that there’s kind of a membership thing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, join.gov.tw. Another metric that we use is the accountability measure of policy making. How many policies or long-term projects of each ministry has a full accountable record of spending, procurement, research, allows for public commenting? How often does the career public service respond directly? That’s another key metric." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s almost like the consumer confident index, but \"citizen\" confidence index." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s another key metric that we’re measuring. At the moment, I think 1,300 projects have an accountability trail, which is, I think, a majority now, but still not everything. Things that are, of course, state secrets and so on, [laughs] emergency stuff, or things that are pure research are not yet fully accounted for." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the mid to long-term projects, that is to say, that has more than one year of execution period and that has at least quarterly report, including the spending, is on the report." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Who in government is looking at that confidence index? Is that something that you’re reporting to the higher levels of government?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, I’m in charge of open government so [laughs] I’m looking at it." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I was thinking beyond you, who really is looking at it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Beyond me is the Premier, who very much care for open government. When he ran for the Tainan City government in 2014, open government is his main pillar, main campaign platform, actually. He was elected because of his insistence. It’s public record anyway. After he became the mayor, he refused to go to the city council for quite some time because the chief councilor is involved in a bribery case." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Corruption case." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For quite a while, what he did was he just went into every single precinct in Tainan City and have town hall meetings directly with people, fully accountable, and have all the bureaus respond immediately, in two weeks after each town hall meeting. Basically, a portable city council that talks directly to people. It’s direct democracy, right? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After he became the premier, he took that and actually went to all the different counties in Taiwan in a tour of industrial innovation. I’m doing, personally, a tour on social innovation. That become the norm here. The premier really loves all these open data, open governance, open participation stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The real accountability mechanism is implemented in the National Development Council, in the NDC. The chief commissioner of the NDC was the chief commissioner of the RDEC of Tainan City when Lai Ching-te the mayor, so she was the one who accompanied him to the tour." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the same Tainan team, lifted to a national level. We’re very fortunate to have Chen Mei-ling as our chief commissioner." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "These liaison people that you’ve borrowed from these departments, when they go back to a department with an idea, do they have a team of people within their..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s at the core team, like 22 people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In 34 ministries, each ministry has a team of participation offiers. It’s a satellite network." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "What sort of methods or approaches do they use? I know it’s voluntary association, so you’re not going in there and telling them to do it. What methods do they use within their departments? Are they standardized or all they all...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s almost standardized. Basically, it’s called the Open Policy Making Toolkit. UK has, I think, one of the most advanced one, but nowadays Google, Mozilla, Red Hat, [laughs] everybody has a open innovation toolkit, by any other name, but it’s the same methodologies anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s Agile, design thinking, stakeholder mapping, user journey, the usual suspects. We have a toolkit of 20 or so general processes. Then we combine them to form due processes based on how early is the context of policy making. How many stakeholders are involved? How many ministries are involved? There’s a methodology, and we’re also publishing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s almost like a real lab here to basically look at incoming cases. It could be e-petition. It could be emergent issues. It could be sandbox issues. We’re very big on sandbox, like breaking the law for a year and see what happens. If everything happens that was good, we take the patch and merge that into our law. This is how we innovate with the society in policy making, including laws, regulations and interpretations. Each one requires a due process of co-creation, and that is semi-standardized. We don’t have a standardized way to combine them, but we have a standard toolkit, and people learn to combine them according to the stage, the time, and the budget limitations." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I don’t think we’re even doing that in the United States. I think it would be fascinating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We met with the NYC Civic Service Design team." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I could see that. I’m surprised San Francisco doesn’t have that or some of that. That’s interesting." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "I can’t imagine Australia is doing much of this either." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Actually, that’s not true. There’s some open government initiatives in Australia." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "Is it? I’ve been away for a long time." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Yeah. I don’t remember what it was exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "An acquaintance, Pia Andrews just went back to Australia after serving with the New Zealand innovation team. I’m sure that she will bring the New Zealand stuff, the Wellington toolkit [laughs] back to Australia." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "I’ll look out for that." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s really interesting." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "I think one thing that we can share with you is Red Hat Innovation Labs, open innovation labs. We basically work with clients, small teams of clients to help drive change within the organization. More than just the Red Hat products but also all the other open source and commercial products that you need in a successful development ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "All of our practices are also open source. If you have a look, there’s something called the open practice library." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m aware of that." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "Everything that we do in labs, at Red Hat, so that open source is more than code, it’s culture. All of the practices that we use in labs, we open source as well. I’ll go and have a look at your open policy..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m making a toolkit. Yeah, I said that as much to that IBM VP yesterday. I said that in their communication, they’re \"preserving the Red Hat legacy\" which could be worded more constructively." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That is ironic actually." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. You should have said that you want to open innovation culture to drive the change within IBM and how IBM relates to people. They said they would look into it, so there’s some hope." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s funny. I had actually caught that irony of the language that they used. That’s a good catch." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, because they’re the legacy. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I think they see the open source future though. Everyone knows that the biggest disruption in innovation is being driven by open source, honestly. I think everyone will get there, just different speeds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know. I worked with Apple for six years, four of which was before they open sourced Swift and things. We just need to have patience." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I would like to see them open source more things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know, I know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am no longer with Apple." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Someone asked me why I don’t have an iPhone and I said as soon as they open source everything, then I will consider doing that. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "Audrey, I’m thinking you have a vision of success. Since all of us are here, where do you see Red Hat can play a role contributing to your vision?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The whole idea of open innovation is that we enable the people. Not just young people but intergenerational and across all the fields to have the right tools to innovate at zero or negative cost because of the network effect. Just getting the message across that you can put something together, innovate and without a lot of cost, either in time or in money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is a very important message because in Taiwan, when people think entrepreneur, people don’t think a serial entrepreneur or anything like that because the older generation, they all work with things that are, frankly speaking, pretty capital intensive. If you start something capital intensive and fail, it’s a big deal for the whole family." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nowadays, with open innovation and service-oriented innovation, you can pay exactly a smudge as your customers are. You can even crowdfund and have all your customers be your punters. Zero cost innovation is really a thing. Not just zero marginal cost but zero initial cost. I think this is..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s a very different business model." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very different experience from the older generation’s more industrial age model. Anything that you can do to spread this message. It could be, I don’t know, comics, films or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a good idea because, not only in Linkou, our in social innovation lab, we’re having all those university social responsibility programs. They’re all asking, how do they convince their parents to let them fail a few times before really hitting a fit to the market?" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s interesting because I lived in Taiwan in the 1990s. I, actually, was telling these guys earlier that the thing I loved about it was that failure wasn’t seen in the same way as I think it even was in Western culture or American culture." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "You were encouraged to experiment more, so it’s funny that you’re saying that that’s not translated. I’m wondering if there was a period where it went away?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you were around in the late ’90s, that’s where everybody is experimenting because the first presidential election is 1996. That’s where everybody gets democracy." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It became more experimental then." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It became more experimental. There was a huge occupy in the early ’90s. There’s the Wild Lily and things like that. There’s a period of maybe five years or seven years that..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s when I was here. I think it was a period. Everything was fresh, post-martial law." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, after the Millennium, I think people generally start to think that maybe, after the dot-com burst, actually, people start to think, if you put too much investment into software, it may not pay off, so all the software oriented or service-oriented VCs changed their strategy. Software became an addition to hardware. That is to say, it iterates on half-year cycles instead of half-week cycles." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s more the traditional industry here also, so it went back to its roots." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a fold back of the software mentality back to a hardware mentality. That happened around 2005, 2004, or so. It’s just now in the past couple of years, we’re restarting this service and software-oriented view with AI labs and all those international companies choosing Taiwan as the main AI innovation center." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, this time around, we discovered that you don’t have to make a software/hardware split because you can start with design, user need and things like that. This design-oriented thinking, Taipei being a business capital and things like that in the past, I think three or four years, it’s restarted as a thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, Sunflower in 2014 also plays a role because after a huge occupy, just like Wild Lily, people feel that expressing their outrage about social injustice or whatever is a hip thing to do. Whereas, before the Sunflower, occupy is seen as something very strange." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Young people don’t often talk about gender inequality or social injustice or animal rights but after the occupy, it’s now a very hip thing up to today because of referendums and things like that. In the past four years, we’re seeing a revitalization that’s kind of like around 1996." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s interesting. We do a lot with universities around open source and innovation. I don’t know if we’ve done anything in Taiwan, specifically, but we should actually look at it because they have some of the best universities in the world." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "I’m not sure if the Red Hat Academy is here." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I’ll go check with Hugh Brock on that and see if we have anything." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "Red Hat Academy is where we provide the Red Hat tools to universities free of charge to allow them to incorporate that into their curriculum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "IBM has P-TECH. They work with three universities. I’m sure you can piggyback off of that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is there a Traditional Chinese version of your curriculum?" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I don’t know. I’ll follow up with that. I’ll talk to the gentleman who’s running that program. We’re really starting to scale that now. It’s funny you say that because someone sent me a translation of something this morning and it was simplified characters. I said, I can’t really use that here and thank you very much. I can’t believe we’re still having this conversation about simplified versus traditional. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s automated tools for that... I wrote one myself." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I’ll let them know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To do a proper lexicon-based subsitution through e.g. OpenCC, it doesn’t cost you a dime to translate to traditional Chinese. You can start with the corporate home page... That technology, it’s open source, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I will pass that on. Thank you. I will take that feedback." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would, of course, help. I wrote a tool early on, HanConvert, that converts between the scripts, which you are free to use as well." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "That’s funny. When did you write that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s year 2000. I started to get a lot of grateful, thank-you emails from the likes of BBC and so on. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I’m sure. Right. I will definitely take that as an action item to follow up on that. It’d be interesting." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "Very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our procurement people said they have to really convince their bosses that the red here doesn’t mean PRC. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Yeah, it’s not that red hat. Maybe we need to send them a fedora, so they understand it’s a completely different style of red hat as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know, but a Simplified Chinese website doesn’t help." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "I have taken this feedback. Got it." }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "Of course, the Red Hat salesforce in Taiwan works in a way that we engage with the enterprise instead of small companies or individuals in the society. Still, I think that in Taiwan’s market, we see it changed a lot in the last couple of years in terms of innovation, how people see innovation, likes encouraging their people to do more innovation." }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "Also, the open source, the way that enterprise sees open source has changed a lot as well. Today, to many enterprise, the default choice of technology should be open source softwares..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "...instead of the proprietary solutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we made that very clear in our procurement rules. If they can use PostgreSQL, they will use it. If they’re still stuck with, I don’t know, DB2, at least they can turn it into microservices and put it on a more open orchestration platform. At least the API should be open and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really a thing in the last two years. Starting this year, the government, digital service principal spells that out. Then, after a year, it will be not beta but just procurement strategy." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "I think from our perspective, we have two parts of the company. One is more on the community or the engineering. We can definitely do a better job of engaging the community here in Taiwan and enrolling their help to contribute to open source projects." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "The other part, which Jason spoke about, is the enterprise part of our business. Is not just about them using open source. When you start to adopt open source tools, you need to have the right mindset because a large part of open source is about iteration and experimentation. You would try if it works and improve from there." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "Whether does it fit your needs? If it’s not, then you continue to evolve and try different things. That’s where innovation will spark, right? Very often, when people think about innovation, it’s about the big idea of some life-changing things but most of the time, innovation starts as small little items that continue to improve and become better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like a flash mob, right? You just have three people. Then, it draws a crowd, which draws a larger crowd." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "To the extent, and unfortunately, for a lot of enterprises or even parents. I think that the fear of the failure is a result of success that was experienced in the past. You know I come from Singapore, right? Over the past 30, 40 years, we have been growing very well. So much so that we are fixated. We must only move upwards and not side ward, or even downwards." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "Sometimes, you can take a few steps down but after that, you propel yourself up a lot more if you experiment. I think this kind of mindset, we need to actually propagate with all the communities as well as enterprises." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would also stress that, of course, we’ve been saying open innovation in policy making for a very long time, but I think it really caught on this time because we changed the wording to say social innovation. The basic idea is really the same but social innovation involves the whole society. Not just the civil tech people or the tech people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It puts the emphasis on bringing power to the people closer to the pain, to empower instead of colonize the people. It’s less solution thinking. It’s more co-creation thinking. Using social innovation as the branding and the sustainable goals as the concrete like 169 targets." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It puts the emphasis on the digital as a way for communities to connect rather than digital as a way for people to \"deliver solutions.\"" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "The Digital Experience as opposed to the technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. While open innovation is a pursuit, the thing that we’re doing. It does have a kind of connotation, a copyright, or a patent, or the intellectual property truths that is happening between the major vendors and so on, which is rightly so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We started open source movement as a marketing campaign for free software for these people. Obviously, then, it carries the more economic instead of environmental or social undertone. When we say social innovation, it’s equally social, environmental, and economic. That is the branding we’re using. Of course, we’ll still do open innovation." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "It’s still powered by technology..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. When I go to, for example, during the UN G8, they ask me what does the digital minister do? Then, I say, I work on 17.18, 17.17, and the 17.6." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The beauty of the SDGs is that digital is in the 17th, and the 17s is very well placed in a way that is a combining force to all the different sectors. I think it is a more collaborative message." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Interesting. Is there anything else that we could do to help collaborate or drive your mission forward as we’re meeting with all these companies? I think going to you, one of our -- I don’t know if I’d call it a mission -- but a side benefit is that we’re not just selling technology. We’re really evolving culture and the way of doing things." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Open Innovation Labs is a hands-on, how do we move you forward faster approach. A lot of companies want part of their organization to go through that to just kick-start it almost because, as you know, change is hard. I’m just wondering if there’s anything else we should be looking at or thinking about as we’re working here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The comic, which I really should bring now because I would like to read a few pages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you read, I don’t know, Hakka or Taigi?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s all the six languages. The English one, Japanese, and Amis too. I can bring you more English copies." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Case study of the very taxing tax filing system." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Cast of characters." }, { "speaker": "Jason Peng", "speech": "Yeah, this was quite the big media issue that I think four or five years before. Last time, when people used the tax system, it caused a lot of problems. People arguing and complain about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We invite everybody who complains to open innovation." }, { "speaker": "Richard Koh", "speech": "Contribute rather than criticize, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Contribute by criticizing. I think that the main message I want to focus on is page 10. I think that is one of the messages that we can all help to spread, which is bringing the user from the waterfall model, the last touch point to the first touch point. It also touches on how to cross silos, use ICT and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that this would be the main message to talk to startups and perhaps in your next focus groups. If anything, that is the one message that they already is buying in. They understand if they’re not working with users, they are not going to succeed or survive." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "This is the actual story. This is fascinating. This is almost a transcript in a fun way. That’s great. We’ll have to send you our cartoon for containers. Did you bring one of those?" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "We’ve also used comic books in a lot of education around SELinux, containers and things like that because people will read them. It’s much more enjoyable." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "I’ll have to get one to you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can translate it to traditional Chinese?" }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. Maybe just start with them. This cartoon and your cartoon and..." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Yeah, we’ll share, share comic books." }, { "speaker": "David Worthington", "speech": "People read them, right?" }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "This has been really, really interesting. Thank you for sharing your time. I know you’re very busy. We’ll continue to think about ways we can collaborate, mutually." }, { "speaker": "Margaret Dawson", "speech": "Anything else?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Feel free to bring comic books. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Tracy Hsieh", "speech": "How about take a picture?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, sure, sure. I’ll have to wear this SDGs pin then." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am really, really thrilled to participate in the SEWF in Edinburgh. It brings the whole context of how 10 years ago it was just a fringe movement and now it’s taken over the world." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "So huge, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s great, especially in the policy forum. The commitment that I see is phenomenal. We probably can’t say that even five years ago. It’s a real movement now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I had a lot of interaction with the steering committee, and so on, basically branding our Tomorrow Asia event, which is next May in Kaohsiung as a partnership event with the SEWF. Of course, we probably won’t call it SEWF, per se, mostly because it’s actually Asia-Pacific, so we’re calling it APSES, Asia-Pacific Social Enterprise Summit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The agenda setting, we’ll make a rolling arrangement. For example, this year the agenda setting for Tomorrow Asia is mostly done by SE Insights, but the Care For Us Foundation, the Children Are Us Foundation, is jointly a co-organizer." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Next year the Care For Us will be the main organizer and agenda setter, but they will bring along Impact Hub Taipei as the co-organizer. Maybe the year afterward Impact Hub Taipei will be the main organizer, and maybe they will bring I don’t know who else, B Labs, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea is that we show diversity of Taiwan’s social entrepreneurship scene. Also, we focus every year on different Sustainable Development Goals based on the city that we’re in. This is my name card nowadays." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "The new one. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Mine is so boring. It’s the same one. You have it already." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The flip side is our main message." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Your foundation is the Sustainable Development Goals? You build everything from there?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, the 169 SDGs. Nowadays, as I present it in the policy forum as the digital minister, I’m mostly working on 17.18, which is reliable data accountability, 17.17 cross-sectoral partnership, 17.6 open innovation and not colonial innovation, and, like everybody, understand this core vocabulary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The 17th is right here in the middle. It brings all the sectors together, instead of fighting against each other. Through reliable data and cross-sectoral participation we can increase education through sustainable consumption. We can fix the pollution and sustain life underwater using sustainable regions, cities, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "You bring everything in the middle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The whole point of working on 17 is so that everybody knows what everybody is doing. We’re going to have the map of all the SDG efforts. It could be from the university social responsibility programs. It could be from the CSR programs. It could be from social entrepreneurships." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, a few weeks after this we’ll have the anniversary of the Social Innovation Lab. We’ll have a large show, a booth, maybe 30 or 40 social entrepreneurs showing their experience, their services, products, and stores over the past year. Our entry ticket is that you have to choose the goals that you represent you’re working toward. You see a lot of SDG icons in our booth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Indeed, actually, to use the Social Innovation Lab there’s no rent, fee, or anything. All you have to do is you declare which of the 169 you’re working toward. That’s the entry ticket, and then you can use the venue for free." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That’s a free entrance, SDG ticket." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Those social entrepreneurs, they are the private company, or they could be the university?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we broadened the plan to be the Social Innovation Action Plan rather than Social Enterprise Action Plan, which was the previous name, Dr. Feng Yen’s name." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why we chose innovation instead of enterprise is that enterprise is just one kind of innovation, and it’s business model innovation, essentially. There’s many university programs or co-ops that are not, strictly speaking, companies that are not registered to the Ministry of Economic Affairs. They’re not, properly speaking, small and medium enterprises according to our current law." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "According to the label?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re fixing that, but before we fix that we need to include them." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "If you call it innovation you can bring in these other...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We call them the groups who do innovation. Then it includes practically everybody. It also makes it really, really clear that it includes the co-ops, the non-profits, as well as companies and hybrid organizations as long as they achieve the Sustainable Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That’s the bottom line, really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. It’s willing to share their innovation model with the world through social innovation, because social innovation is not just solving social environmental problems, it’s also doing it with the society. Then, as long as you can commit to be open and you work on any of the SDGs, you’re a social innovator." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social enterprise still is, of course, a very important part of it, but equally important is the universities and everybody else." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "You bring the other people. No, that’s great. There will be this event happening when?" }, { "speaker": "Sheau-Tyng Peng", "speech": "17th November, at one anniversary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, that’s our anniversary." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "The one that we went to last time." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Thank you. I’ll have a look." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s this place. I’m sure you’ve been here before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even this soccer field is designed by people with Down syndrome and turn out to be brilliant artists." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Amazing, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is perfect place. For the annual Social Enterprise AP Summit, APSES, that will be in Kaohsiung in May. I forgot dates, but Sheau-Tyng can look it up. Because it’s in Kaohsiung, so our primary targets for next year, we’ll probably focus on resilience, because it’s Kaohsiung, so it will be on the water, or sustainable urban-rural development, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe the year afterward we will choose some other SDGs. Actually, it’s exactly the same as the High-level Political Forum at the UN. They choose some topics every year, but every year the 17th is always part of it because it’s all about cross-sectoral partnership." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Because the name of the plan has changed to social innovation, are you the lead of this plan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I am." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "You’re the main lead for this...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say I’m the main coordinator. I’m like the convener, but because, as you know, I don’t give or take orders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just a facilitator. Yes, that’s my name on the tin." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the next four years." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Obviously, you’ve met Tristan in Edinburgh. You know that we do some social enterprise work and also social innovation in the region. Tristan is our regional lead. If there’s anything that we could do to collaborate, to work with you, we would be really delighted. We’ve done some research work in other countries where they’re looking at policy." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I’m trying to get the details of that research, but we can send it to you afterwards to see what kind of research we’ve done and see if that would be, maybe, of use to you in Taiwan. Or maybe we could help with some scoping and research of the landscape in terms of supporting your plan, because we’ve been doing it for other places, like Korea." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Singapore." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Singapore, as well." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Thailand, Philippines." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "We’ve got all the methodology ready to replicate. If that might be something useful, it can be done immediately." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you can see, this is our main research agenda for the next four years. By social value evaluation we mean not just SROI or traditional. It’s relatively new. I shouldn’t say traditional, but mainstream impact assessment methodologies, because for all their benefit they focus on maybe one entity and its impact. By social value evaluation, we mean something that is more ecosystem based." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I visited the UK, the Minister of Fun, PCMS is working on something like that as part of the civil society strategy to do innovations in democracy, and to measure the citizen confidence index, or whatever they call it nowadays. That can measure the wider impact of social innovations on the society as a network, rather than just specific product and services as a social return of investment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The SRI is still important for investors, but for policymakers the network-based analysis is very important. The Sustainable Goals itself is a good framework for that already because we see the SDG dashboard and we can evaluate based on how close we’re meeting the goals. We do our own voluntary national reviews using compatible methodologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also very eager to involve more academic, social sector, and private sector contributions to our VNR, because our VNR at the moment, especially around target 17, is mostly with the \"diplomatic allies.\" The diplomatic allies are more developing in nature. It doesn’t reflect the full spectrum of Taiwan’s help in actually very advanced fields to friendly countries but not \"diplomatic allies.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The SDG framework and social innovation framework can help to complete the puzzle so that we can list them alongside, or even within our Voluntary National Review. That’s also one of the plans that we’re working very closely with the foundations founded and sponsored by the Minister of Foreign Affairs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re diversifying their cases so that they can talk to other people and invite them to Tomorrow Asia, as well. I won’t name names, but there’s many foundations." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "In that case, we will try to get some information about the research side of things and see if that can contribute in some way to what you’re already doing. I know you’re doing something. We’ll send you a link, and have a look. Maybe something that we can replicate here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it has any connection to foreign aid that is perfect, because sustainability-based foreign aid is something that everybody says, but there’s very little international consensus on what to measure and how. Anything you can contribute on this regard we’re more than happy to collaborate." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Tristan did mention that the Methodology Research Lab between British Council and those other local country. It’s always the SEUK. That would be a good research report for Taiwan to understand the whole landscape of that social enterprise..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because I intend to be in Addis Ababa, and so if I can see some applied research around their region, not necessarily the country, but that region, that would really help the context." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Fantastic, then we will do that." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "I do have some idea about working with the university to raise them as a center of the hub for the community or for the environment around that school to bring the social enterprises, either within the arts, like education, to raise up the profile of the university, as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome. I also noticed in the SEWF this time, you and Scottish government are co-organizers." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Yeah, which is good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is rare." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I know. It’s very rare." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Of course, the Scottish government will always be friendly towards Taiwan, as well, for obvious reasons." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, but what I’m saying is that maybe for APSES we’re also looking for international partners, not necessarily sponsors, but to send the message through." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "To have the international partnership with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the CEIS, the folks running the SEWF, will help us to introduce speakers, some messaging, and basically be a partner in communication. If we can say it’s not just the Scottish, that would be awesome." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "It’s fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "The APSES, when is it going to be? You can send us information. It’s OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you have...?" }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "The date?" }, { "speaker": "Sheau-Tyng Peng", "speech": "It’s actually 10 to 12th, May." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "10 to 12th." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "May 2019?" }, { "speaker": "Sheau-Tyng Peng", "speech": "We are still discussing it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The main SDGs, they’re already picked, and so whatever information we have at the moment. I must stress that for Tomorrow Asia this year, next year, and in future, long as I’m the minister in charge of social innovation, the government never sponsor more than half of the budget. The government never sets the main SDG goal agenda." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is strictly a social sector-private sector agenda setting moment. We do provide support, because in many cases we’re non-profits as well as ministries. We all have our annual goals, accountability, and things like that, so we’ll involve as many ministries as possible. This year we involve something like 10 or 12 ministries as sponsors, but none of them will control the agenda." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "How do you manage to keep them happy without having to go throw anything?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s the trick?" }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Yeah, what’s your trick? Because that’s so difficult with ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The trick, very simple, is that my office is actually a assemblage, a cross-section of ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Aurora is actually from Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the MoFA still pays her salary. I don’t do management. Everybody sets the agenda for themselves and finds their own projects. Yeh Ning here, is from the NCC. We have people from Minister of Culture, Minister of Interior. We have an agreement with the Secretary General that we will not poach more than one person from each ministry." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That’s the agreement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Technically the team can be 34 people. Now it’s 22." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "You’re growing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still, the team is really horizontal and there’s no over-dominating." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "You’re very equal, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, extremely equal." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Also, transparent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Transparent, as well. There is no ministry here that dominates the voice of the plan forming. Everybody says this is really a new culture. On the other hand, they seem to be doing quite well." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I was just thinking, because this kind of team arrangement is so good, whether you might consider having some internship into your team, maybe from outside government. I’m just thinking out loud." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have internship program. Every year we have maybe 30, 40 interns." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I’m thinking maybe from British Council. Someone from the region, or something." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "I’ve been thinking about that part. We could do something like that to do outreach, but we have to sort it out with the personnel’s office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We work with international research fellows, actually. There’s a French research fellow, Fiorella, that works really closely to us. Because we really work out loud, so actually it’s all on the Internet anyway. If you drop by, every Wednesday most of our outreach team is there on Wednesday. It’s the office hour. I’m there, personally, from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, and Sheau-Tyng is there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Most of the vTaiwan gang is there every night for dinner, as well. If anyone from your community consistently shows up every Wednesday, then they naturally integrate into the team. That’s how Fiorella and the research fellows got in." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That is good to know. That would be a good way to learn. As we’re trying to do more in this space we’re also very keen to learn from what you’re doing. If there’s an opportunity to get exposure to it, then that would be really good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Especially dinner. Dinner is always there." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Always, so if you’re around...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a chef and kitchen for that purpose." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "On Wednesdays?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we were co-creating the space the number one wish is that it opens until 11:00 PM every night so that people have plenty of time to discuss after dinner. The second wish is that we have a chef and a kitchen, which we do. The third is that the minister must be here every week." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Good deal." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That’s really great. No, that’s really useful. We’ll take this. We’ll send you some information about the research, maybe that’s one area, because it’s very practical. We’ll send you some information. See what you think, and then we’ll take it from there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll work with the Impact Hub Taipei Care For Us and they will send you whatever they have for planning. If it could be not just a Scottish or SEWF partnership thing that would be excellent international message." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "We’ll see how we, British Council, can also..." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Also, to try to bring some partnership for the event. We’ll get advice on that." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Also, it’s Tomorrow’s Asia, so we can also spread that message within the East Asia country, as well." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "With our colleagues, because in countries like Korea, Singapore, or even Japan, I think they would be very interested. Indonesia would." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our colleague Shuyang was just yesterday in Korea talking about social innovation. It’s a public event, but next to the Mayor of Seoul, who is a huge supporter to this whole idea. They are also very interested in joining. There’s also some Hong Kong advisors and Japanese people in the advisory committee." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The social impact investment part, specifically, South Korea want to lead that discussion, which is why Professor Feng went to that event that you co-hosted, which is why I attached myself to her through telepresence." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Was is your avatar?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I remember your avatar." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. I’m happy to engage in more things like that." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Australia, as well, right? Australia the people are all social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, Akina Foundation from New Zealand is really active, as well. They run a workshop in this year’s APSES. They have a lot of methodology to share, as well. They helped doing the storytelling of my Edinburgh conversation. It’s all on YouTube." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I’m going to have a look at it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that the New Zealand people, they are not in there just for economic reasons. It’s very cultural diplomacy for them, as well." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "We will think about all that. A lot of information. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "We did. It’s great." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Thank you for your time. I’m so glad. How was the weather in Edinburgh? Was it manageable?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It was OK." }, { "speaker": "Diane Hsu", "speech": "Was it getting cold?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "She was dressed like this only." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "Really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "That’s really good. I like the logo, actually. It’s fantastic. Thank you so much. We will follow-up, Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Susana Galvan", "speech": "I look forward to seeing you again." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "The background of GITA is on April 21st, Jaclyn was invited to give a talk at a Showtime. Her topic was \"ICO Transparency Platform.\" The idea of Jaclyn was that we would create an ICO transparency platform in Taiwan to bridge the information imparity between investors and projects. The initial idea was just for a Taiwan-based platform." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "After her talk, Mik and Hida-san -- they were the other two speakers on her panel -- they approached her. They echoed the same sentiments that she had, that we needed this type of platform on a global basis, not just a Taiwan-based platform." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "They talked to her. Mik invited Jaclyn to go to Hong Kong a couple of weeks later to talk to industry leaders. On May 6th, 2018..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the agreement?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "That’s the MOU." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "We have about 19 industry leaders in the ICO industry signing this MOU, agreeing to the mission of the GITA, so those are five points there. That was from April 21st to May 6. That was pretty quick." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "Half a month." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yup. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I see the \"By the Taiwanese representatives\" here." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "Yes!" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Meaning that no other countries’ technologies can serve as the initial development platform?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s Taiwanese exclusive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the first prototype anyway, but yes. This is great." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "That’s the most important part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see that." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "From May 6th, then we jumped to July 19th, 2018. That’s when we created our foundation council. The foundation council is comprised of eight individuals. They’re leaders within their own jurisdictions. We have Taiwan. We have Korea. We have Singapore, Netherlands, Vietnam and a couple more that kind of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re all in the private sectors, though?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "They are." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yes. They are in the private sectors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very important." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "It’s an industrial self-regulatory organization..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "We also had our first batch of Supernodes who signed on July 19th. Two months after they signed the MOU, we set up the foundation council and our first batch of Supernodes." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then on October 4th, 2018, we finally established our entity. It’s actually a Singapore foundation. They call it a company limited by guarantee, but in general it’s known as a Singapore foundation. The name is Global ICO Transparency Alliance." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "We have basic global influence. We do a lot of activities around the globe, not just in Taiwan, because we’re trying to be a global organization. A couple of weeks ago, we co-hosted the first global conference on future of security tokens in Hong Kong. A few weeks before that, Jaclyn was here talking to the Taiwan government, introducing the GITA for the first time at the press conference." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "September 16th, we were in Vietnam talking on their cryptocurrency developments and regulations. This was actually the first time this was discussed in Vietnam. The conference was put together by one of our foundation council members. After Jaclyn gave her talk, the ministers in Vietnam actually said that they will recommend what Jaclyn said." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like a reference implementation?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "You can see that our foundation council members, they have some types of influence in their jurisdictions. We had Kevin talking in Malaysia. This is Alice Chen. She is one other foundation council member. Also, she heads our Supernodes Steering Committee. She’s talking in Singapore. Then we had Mik talking in China. We did go around the globe introducing our alliance and then our mission." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Our basic mission, first, is to protect investors. We saw a lot of scams in the last two years. What we’re trying to do is to bridge that information gap to reduce the number of scams in the ICO industry. The second is to create an industry standard for self-disclosure. The third is to create a forum for some knowledge-sharing and industry improvement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I like your wording. Crowdfunding campaigns on blockchain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really precise." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Like the word ICO. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "At the core of the GITA is the transparency platform. As I mentioned, we really want to bridge information gap between investors and the issuers. Our platform will allow issuers to post pre- and post-crowdfunding information. Unlike some other information disclosure platforms that we’ve seen are rating agencies that only follow the pre-ICO crowdfunding, we also want to do the post-crowdfunding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The accountability part, which is the real important part." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Exactly. As we mentioned, this is a self-regulatory organization or what we’re trying to do is make it self-regulate. The disclosure items are filled in at the discretion of the issuers. Also, the issuers have to ensure their own accuracy." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "What we do is we have the public monitoring. Individuals who register on our platform using their real name and as subject to KYC, they can comment on the information disclosed by the issuers." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "If we see something that’s incorrect, somebody knows that, and they want to express their opinions that it’s incorrect, they can actually put that on there using their real name. The projects themselves can then respond to what the register..." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "...say." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is consistent in the pre- and post-stages." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Everything that is posted on the platform will basically be open to the public. Everybody can see all the responses. Everybody can see all the responses to disclosure items made by the project. If they make any amendments later, you can also go to history and see what they had previously stated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This public monitor is open not just for the people who come into it and people who in the alliance but really for the general public." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next question would be, is it on a distributed ledger itself, like InterPlanetary File System or something like that? The blockchain is pretty good for this use also." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "That’s something we need to discuss a bit more." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "That’s the reasons why we are here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh really? Cool." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then we have a transparency index. Basically, on the platform, we’ll be able to sort by the percentages of disclosure made by a project. If you’re a investor and you want to see projects that have disclosed above 50 percent, you can sort it by percentage disclosure. Then, look at the top 50 percent." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Also, we have verifications. A lot of issuers might say, \"Oh,\" for example, \"Jaclyn Tsai is their advisor.\" Unless Jaclyn goes and confirms it, they won’t get a verified check on it. That’s pretty important because we’ve talked to a few of our foundation council members. A lot of their names have been used inappropriately by projects because of their reputation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Vitalik has to change his Twitter handle to Vitalik \"Not giving away Ethereum\" Buterin." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s been asked so much. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "As we’ve said, we are trying to create industry standard for self-disclosure. What we did was, when we creating the disclosure items, we reference a lot of the suggested disclosures by different governments and industries. We created from that list, a list about 75 different items." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "From that 75 different items, we went through it. We selected the ones that we felt were mandatory for investors to know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "75 in general." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Right now, there’s about 75." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then the one that are mandatory are..." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "About 37." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Once the project fills in the 37 items, then they can get a mark that’s saying that they’ve met the GITA minimum standard. You can have some types of assurance as a investor that if you find a project that has our mark, they have actually made the disclosures that we thought are important to them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Operational guidelines, who can post? Issuers can post after they’re being introduced by a Node. Nodes are basically entities that provide services to ICOs. It could be a crypto exchange. It could be advisors. It could be just different entities who are involved in this ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "While the issuers are responsible for the accuracy of their own information, there is an implicit filtering mechanism, because on the platform, when a Node introduces an issuer, you’ll be able to see the Node’s name. They’ll be the referring Node. As a referencing Node, you don’t want to be the one that refers a lot of scam projects onto the platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What happens if you do do that?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "When you do do that, you can still have the projects on there. I think the public will see that the projects that you’ve been referring are basically not very legitimate. When investors go onto the platform, they probably won’t be looking for the projects that you referred." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I ask because in a crypto 1.0, before the whole blockchain stuff, we have the secure HTTP connection. The mark of a secure website is issued by, as you know, the certificate authorities, the issuers, which is very similar to this model." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s some rogue CAs that just randomly issue SSL certificates to I wouldn’t say malicious but negligent actors. After some point, that CA may be penalized by being removed by consensus of other root CAs from the root CA list. Basically, the issuing certificate for them for those websites no longer count as secure by a consensus of people who run the root CAs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just wondering whether there is such kind of a process when a supernode or multiple supernodes decide that a node is just not trustworthy where you can delist it or at least mark it somehow." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "We should leave this issues to discuss among the supernode communities." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "We arise that issues too. We have discussed that for long how we can verify a node that are doing bad things, how can we list them, or just let them go because we are quite global. We have discussed with more..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Obviously. I’m just saying that there is an existing what we call the public key infrastructure model that you can look toward as a way for the industry to self-regulate. Because, again, that is not government mandated, this is basically community of certificate issuers, exactly like this works." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "One of the supernode obligations that’ll be in one of the last slides, we do have an obligation for them to uphold the integrity and credibility of the GITA. That would probably fall under that type of concept." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a supernode level one." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "That can probably also be put in the Node level obligations." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "As for who can view? Based on our intention to make the industry more robust, we want everybody to be able to be able to view the information. It’s not going to be restricted by people who register." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody, including humans and robots." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then, who can download? Certain information will be free. Some information will be downloaded for a fee. We do need the fee for operational purposes. ICR rating or rating agencies can actually use this information for their purposes by paying a fee. That’s who can download." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Who can challenge the accuracy? We were talking about how registered members can comment by using their real names. Then also, again, the comments and responses will be fully reflected on our platform." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "This is our governance model. On the top, we have the foundation council which, as mentioned, was formed by the eight members in different jurisdiction. Then we have four committees transversing platform, supernodes, administrative, and treasury." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Jaclyn is the chair of the transparency platform committee. Of course, Kevin is one of the leads in the transparency platform committee. In that committee, we do the development of the platform. Also, we update the disclosure items." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Underneath, we have, of course, the transparency platform. Then we have the supernodes who are like the community leaders, coordinators in their jurisdictions, and then also the Nodes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But there could be multiple supernodes within one jurisdiction?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Definitely. There can be as many there needs to be." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "Currently, we will have five supernodes in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "This is our foundation council list of members. We see that it’s from some pretty major jurisdictions. Then a lot of them from blockchain associations. This is our first batch of supernodes that we sign on on July 19th." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then a brief description why people should join as supernodes. Basically, because we are a global alliance, we do have a strong network. That is one of the reason why being a supernode would be beneficial." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then also we want to create a community. What we’re trying to do is have people attend these meetings and also discuss the future of the industry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do they have to pay annual fee to be supernode?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yes. [laughs] The next slide is on the obligations. We have an annual fee of 5,000 for commercial entities and then 1,000 for nonprofits. Then participation, we hope that they attend supernode meetings and also they attend our events. So we can actually create a community." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then they need to recommend projects on the platform, which is important to have information there, and then promote the GITA. Also, maintain integrity, credibility of the GITA. Basically, that is what our organization is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those three. Awesome. Thank you. This slide itself, is it public online on the GITA home page?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "We can make it public on the home page. We’ve been creating it on https://gita.foundation/." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because after 10 days of editing, I will be releasing this transcript. It would be awesome if we could just link to the gita.foundation home page so that people can actually understand what we’re talking about in the slides." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very well to put together. Congrats." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我們等一下會來demo platform？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next part will be the live demo?" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "That’s the part we need to..." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "When Jaclyn comes with me and telling me this idea, I say, \"Yeah, wow,\" and not organizing and just talking about ring the whole committee and nothing else. I just suggest that we all just made a platform. That’s why we are here. We need some pair from that committee. We’re some kind of saying that maybe rule-maker and what." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Many committee associations don’t really have a platform to let the real committee or the commercials to do something. We just made a platform. We say, \"Those information actually, we make it in a website.\" I can send you a later today about this website. Actually made the platform." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Now the platform is still under development but some project are reaching now. We need to communicate with projects that actually doing ICOs or want to do ICOs to let them give some comments. It’s actually gita.foundation. That’s the development platform here. Maybe you can click to the projects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is an iPad. Feel free." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Some sort of ideas that we have some transparency level. We say that, because we believe that if the projects, we discuss as much information as possible, there are some kinds of ledger. If you got many, then you don’t want the public to know you are some kinds of, maybe, scammy. It doesn’t like it." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "If you’re willing to public more stuffs, or to let the public criticize, or information, or even let VCs and the community to view and comment out. We just list out some sorts of image, that how the product it goes there." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "First is the testing, but this one is a Taiwan project now, that is going to be great and we can go inside..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The percentage means the self-disclosure items, right?" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The percentage of self-disclosure or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, just the items they disclose, but yeah, maybe some concern that maybe they just fill order fills get 100 percent. If you are bringing not right information, or just, yes...Yeah. [laughs] Yeah will just see that all, while you just want to make it 100 percent, and just do wrong things. That’s your representation to world, where you’re at." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, sure, of course." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "This is actually one of the Taiwan project here that Jaclyn likes to fill in. They gave us many comment, because they are willing really in there, real business stuff is said. Many... right now is commenting in...is quite long." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "They want us to refine the whole process. We are doing that also. Many projects just want to come and join our platform, and we just opened the access for them to fill in. We are now refining the whole process. Just a one development problems has quite happen early." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Joined our platform two days, to make the development push forward. You can see we’ve got many items for filling this. We just ask for how many you can fill in. You just fill in to see how the performance on that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that -- sorry, but just nitpicking -- I think the slash between Taiho imposition and between bio and profile is kind of confusing. If you scroll down, you can see here, that like the slash here, and the slash here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, it’s like either/or, right? Bio and profile is pretty synonyms. It’s kind of confusing. What I’m saying is that maybe it makes sense to just use one word." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, that’s why we were quite so close for later, now, and still refining the wording. Actually, Jaime take a list. We go and refine this page all by the picture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I like the visual side though." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "We actually launched this because the first prototype usually is very problematic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I know. HR and everything like that." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "We made it to collect more comments about our committee, because maybe what we are thinking about are not really the people doing actual business want to feel, or they feel that this troubles them or what. We’re working to try them out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you have a newer demo, feel free just to hijack the airplane." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "You can see, there’s many quite items in there, and we think that maybe people need to really think about order this item here, too, to fill in, before they are really doing business." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "In last year, many items just come up with the idea, and say, \"I want money.\" They got nothing. We want people to really arise that they need to think more about this issue. We communicated with many investors and the communities, and they’re really concerned about all this issues." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Jaime, can you hijack,the document?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "I am opening our systems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, no problem." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, so..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is in closed-beta, and there’s quite a few real cases on it already?" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, because many projects actually really just contacted us, and they wanted to try out the platform, because they think the guy is really great. We open the access for them to try. Some are still preparing their stuff to put on it, because they know we are investors looking." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Maybe some sorts of this, they think it is too long, so we see how we can make it more better to present their information." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "That’s what the problem. Actually really working, we focus our trying their best to give us the real showcases about what we can improve. I’m quite impressed about that already. Many say that it’s too long, so you should cut it down." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can have some folded, and ellipses, and click to expand." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "That’s the next version." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, the next version." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure. I think it’s a pretty good first prototype. It’s more obvious now that you’re showing this, if you have any example that is in a post stage, like post prior of sales, or post..." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, the post-axial." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, is there any?" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Not yet, actually. We are inviting them. I assume that post-axial project, they are working hard." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, but some of them may want the publicity." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Some contact us, actually, but they are still giving comment that because they don’t want to make such long descriptions. They gave us comments, \"Could you just cut it down,\" or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Use a template, or some template use, or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "We are just refining this process and make it more presentable to the public. They don’t just want to put up tons of work, and make that people don’t want to do that project. They concerned about their brand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "We actually got many comments back. I am quite happy about that. Jaime made a new, a hijack..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, do hijack." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "It’s in a Word document right now. We need to update it, but these are the new questions that we have after talking to several projects, and also other people in the industry. The questions are a lot more simplified, and not as open-ended as the other questions that you saw before." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Then we also have a marking of which questions are required for our disclosure standard marking. We’re trying to make it so that they can actually select more multiple choices, rather than open-ended." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "There is about 75 questions. I assume..." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "That’s the new version?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "This is the new version that we were going to add stuff off of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is much more structured." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "It’s probably a lot easier for projects to post information, too. Feel free to stop me if there’s anything you want to take a closer look at." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. The very first question that..." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "The very first question?" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Scrolling too fast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I see the structure, this is great. I’m just nitpicking the \"i.e.\" there. Maybe \"e.g.,\" or something?" }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, what about, here you say, \"Detailed description of concrete project timeframe,\" but the subitems, item six, scroll down a little bit. What does \"End Date\" even mean? Does it mean end of the initial token you join, and of what?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sometimes it’s in stages. Well, it’s always in stages, so it’s more like milestones. Some projects may have two, may have three, may have four. If you have a start and end date of process, that’s great, but it doesn’t say anything about in the middle milestones." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah. Not end of the business. [laughs] I get that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe start issuing, or end issuing, or something like that. The current wording, it’s like it’s the end date of the project itself, which is definitely not true." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "We could make that \"Major Milestones.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, major milestones, that also works. Otherwise, I don’t have any problem. This is very, very good. I will stop picking typos like describe in question five, should be DE, or whatever, but this is just me being pedantic." }, { "speaker": "Jaime", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The structure is great. Yeah, OK. Cool. Anything I can help?" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "OK。找你的原因是因為一直很喜歡這一個platform怎麼樣跟g0v合作，我也跟IPA談過，因為這個對於新的領域，我們怎麼樣說政府可以少管一點，我們民間自己來管。IPA提出第一個問題是，我們這個平台是不是可以open source？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對啊！內容先不管，至少技術是open source。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "因為我們某一個程度要大家進來，也有某一個程度的客觀……安全性也很重要，就是很希望讓大家相信這個平台。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對啊！" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "所以我很希望跟g0v合作，但是是不是要用open source，這個是前提，因為跟g0v合作的前提是open source。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "對，我也支持open source。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "因為事實上你們上面每一個crypto currency大概也都是用open source的區塊鏈，不然無法取信於人。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "這個是第一個，如果也同意，我們就是走open source。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我們要去挖坑。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "12月？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "12月8日我們要提這一個案子，現在這整個事情，比如我們要去提之前先跟你討論一下，因為你最瞭解整個運作，所以聽聽你的意見，就是這整個架構，如果要用open source的話。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "提案的時候，最好給一個github的網址，因為這樣大家有什麼想法，就會直接用那個issue，就不用一個個面對面談。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "對，本來是等這一個project完成之後就立馬就會open source。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，但是我的意思是open source是release early release often，即使你有一個像剛剛show的版本，等於根本不是beta，是early offer，是很明確地這樣說，這樣子反而大家更容易幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "因為你做到很完美了，反而只有很專業的人來幫你的忙，不如把不太專業的狀態先提出來。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "就是掉鏈寄給人家填？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對。就是你不如是到那個時候，實質開發的狀況怎麼樣就那樣子，然後你可以說我們有另外一個設計稿，這一個設計稿當然更好，我們徵求志工願意把這個設計稿做出來，或者即使不願意，至少試用一下這個設計稿，讓我們看一下會不會比目前這一個草稿來得好一些之類的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "視覺設計上，我覺得剛才不管你們的首頁或者是這一些視覺影像都非常成熟了。像我們的社會企業也有社會企業自律平台，還有一個很明白的治理模式，有一個自律名單之類的，當然這也是沒有一般政府單位去介入的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我覺得費用或者是年費、流程、審查會議等等，我想這個是你只要能夠用中文，把它講清楚一次，就是剛剛那個簡報，可能稍微簡化一點，然後畫成比較像這樣子的申請流程或者是流程圖，看如果我是一個project或者是node，從我的角度來看，GITA是怎麼回事，可能兩張簡單的流程圖，其實大家就會很清楚了。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "所以我們去黑客松是要用中文的？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "那邊當然也有講英語的，如果你只講英語的，可能會進來的人是1/5或者是1/4，或者是你pitch的方式是，你簡報是英文的，但是你講中文，當然如果你偏好講英語的話，那這也可以，簡報就要是中文，要放subtitle，也就是雙語的人可以跟上你的思想，這樣是比較好，但是大部分的人還是講中文，然後用英文簡報。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我就是用中文講，然後用英文寫簡報？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "你覺得會有人跳坑嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "會啊，只要你很明確說你需要什麼。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "今天就是要來聽這一句話！" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是，就是先說清楚需要什麼，因為鏈圈現在大部分的專案，大部分都是用來責信，就是不是用來當作投資，而是用來當作責信的工具。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "什麼是責信？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "舉一個很實際的例子來講。大家都聽過我們有一個叫做民生公共物聯網，相關的社群是g0v零時空污觀測網，這個是視覺化的專案，也就是g0v的專案，而後面的資訊其實除了公部門之外，大部分是一些叫做「空氣盒子」公民科學家們，很培養用2,000元左右的台幣，就可以買一個小盒子放在自己的家裡、陽台或者是學校做環境教材，任何人都可以很快知道不是非常準，但是趨勢沒有錯pm 2.5等等的一些濃度，所以你就不需要等環保署在你家附近測站，你就立刻可以收到這個資訊。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "並不是自己使用，而是上載到雲端，這個雲端是由中研院陳伶志領導叫做LASS社群，這個社群就會一次把所有這一些個人的貢獻匯聚在一起，幾千個點就可以一次看到這一張圖非常明顯的，我們可以看到臺灣數位落差的狀況……不是（笑）；就可以看到臺灣實際空氣品質的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "鏈圈這個的關係是因為有一個分散式帳本叫做「IOTA」，我們也知道小光這一些社群的朋友們也在投入，他們也說這一個東西行政院希望全部都匯集到國家網路中心來進行運算，不同的來源、不同的老師們就會說片面的資料不會打口水帳，而是用完全相同的資料，只是拼自己的演算法，這個當然對我們做科學非常有幫助，所以我們就專門給了一個國家級的網域，「ci」是Civil IoT，但是也有collective intelligence的意思。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "但是公民社群，尤其是一些環團的朋友們，就會說把資料給了國網，如果國網選舉前篡改我們的資料，我們怎麼知道呢？他們可能是多心了，因為國網對選舉沒有興趣，但是大家會有這一種疑慮，這樣子鏈圈的朋友們就會說：「很簡單，你就是每一天上傳之前，你做一個快照，快照放到分散式的帳本裡面，國網也只是一個，不過是那五個，所以任何人需要篡改，其實其他人都知道了，而且無法篡改。」這個是分散式帳本是一個用途，因此民間的朋友很願意貢獻自己的資料，因為他們知道事後可以稽核，而且不會被國家的力量篡改，這個是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "其實行政院也有自己想要量測的地方，但是我們就抱持著打不過就加入的精神，所以他們沒有顧到的點，境外好比像這裡，這裡是很重要的，就是到底哪裡是境外、哪裡是境內的，是在臺灣海峽上，但是這個點位，我想公民科學家大概是不會去補的，但是我們會，因為我們離岸風機加在這個地方，所以我們可以放在離岸的風力發電機上，但是同樣的，因為風力發電機理論上也不是行政院直接控制，而是一個可能外商跟本土商家的結合，因此願意用相同的API、願意使用分散式帳本技術，誰也不用特別相信誰，最後的資料，大家還是可以共用，g0v的朋友對這樣的用法是非常支持的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "好比你說「我們裡面可公開、可自由下載的部分，我們希望找到人來幫助，想放到分散式帳本裡面」。這個是非常明確的坑，而且你們大概還沒有寫好這個部分。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "再講一遍。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "就是任何人都可以下載、不用付會員費就可以取得的部分，就是基本資訊的部分，如果你們現在在提案裡面說希望有鏈圈的工程師來協助，把我們這一些基礎資料全部放在事後不可抹滅、撤銷的分散式的系統裡，這個至少有一個好處。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "基本資料誰都可以來改，但是網站上是新版的，整個修改的紀錄就不會有篡改的問題，像時間點A說了這個，大家進行一番討論，大家變成了B，但是時間點變成B改的時候，可能想要消除這個黑歷史，但是事實上這個黑歷史才是你們存在的意義。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "沒錯。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "IPFS……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，所以你可能很明確地說：「我們需要懂IPFS的工程師，然後把可公開的部分定期、每一天上傳到IPFS去。」這個是很漂亮、形狀的坑，因為懂IPFS不少，早期放到上面的話，這比source code公開都來得重要，因為source公開都還要花時間去看，但是基本上放在IPFS上，github這個網站即使被怎麼樣了，我自己可以在IPFS上重建一些最基本的資訊，這個是非常好的形狀。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "當然，類似的形狀，我想學技術的可以想到很多，但是只要把明確開出來，相信是絕對有神跳坑的。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "你有沒有什麼想法？因為接下來我們的窗口是……" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "她今天是第一天……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "你今天是第一天嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "沒有，她自己有在開班，是自由工作者。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "之前是by project，現在是全職的。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "空氣污染是真的有用區塊鏈技術？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，你只要找IOTA、airbox，應該就會找到。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "作為一個媒體，這個是很好的題材。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對。而且他們也還有想要引入跟剛剛講的一個一樣信用評等的系統，因為其實每一個node，不一定是出於惡意，可是可能街角沒有設好什麼的，就一直放，好比像污染非常嚴重等等的訊息出來，跟他旁邊的人都不一樣，未必是惡意，但是這個網絡需要一個方法來管理信用值，這其實也是IOTA的一個應用，因為是可以運用像TangleID這樣的方式去作信用討論。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們可以看到在Reddit上也已經有非常多的討論，雖然是臺灣出發的，但是是國際性的事件，我覺得這個是很好的……" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "IOTA現在是小光他們在推嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "IOTA在臺灣相當多人在推。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Connective很強。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "主要的原因是我想它非常hands on，它不是一堆高大上的數學理論，是這一種隨做隨改。其實這一種充滿缺陷的很容易加入，數學證明太多的，反而大家沒有力氣參加，因為……都給數學家做就好了（笑），這個是具體的建議。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "因為你們的文件放IPFS我想是特別適合的，有一個好處是，你們不會選邊站，上面的token一定都有偏好的技術，但是IPFS本身並沒有偏好技術，在它上面當然可以有很多別的東西，但是它本身並不是一個加密貨幣、虛擬通貨。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以我會建議從最底層開始。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "因為本來是要從資料庫的東西，每一個放到IPFS，所以每一個就可以IPFS，這個是我們可以試的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "還有一個好處是，放上去之後，現在全世界最大的內容遞送網路之一，就是叫做CloudFlare，他已經把他的每一個端末都變成IPFS匝道，所以意思是你在全世界聯繫都很快，而且絕對不可能被惡意攻擊、消失，單獨的點也許可以，但是你不可能把整個CloudFlare都打下來。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個之前，好比像香港佔中投票的時候，已經有豐富的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "我有投票，所以我知道。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "您知道他們跟CloudFlare的合作？" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "就是公民投票的課責機制？" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "大陸的駭客真的滿厲害。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以有在第一線實戰的認證了。現在IPFS架在CloudFlare上，我們可以很大方地說我們覺得這個是最目前達不到的分散式儲存，所以我想這個是你可以放在簡報裡、找人來幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "我問一個問題。What would you like the government to do?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "事實上，他們可能是希望政府不要做什麼。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "Sorry. I need to ask this question because it’s quite the reason why I’m still here." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我們其實是…… We are trying to use this platform to negotiate with governments saying, \"No. Actually, you don’t need to step in.\"" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "Yeah, from the broadly..." }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "You can just wait and see. As long as industry can regulate by ourself, so why a government..." }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "Any government interested unit should be part of it? Where do you have that possible?" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "其實這一個平台要demonstrate，現在不是一直在談security，IPO這整套系統是沒有網路的時代，IPO就是crowdfunding，所以當年因為沒有網路，每一個國家各一套。ICO跟STO，一開始就是從網路來的，所以你不應該在每一個國家搞一套。所以在IPO的過程中，disclosure是非常重要的，每一個國家都有一個board要求你去。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "意思是，他們之間互相交換訊息，但是是跨國在進行。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "對，你by regulation，你會變成我要做一個global public的……global的crowdfunding，我要到每一個國家去register，我要到每一個國家的board去publish，這個是不對的嘛！" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "你覺得至少有更好的做法？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "對，我認為我的做法是開始說disclosure這一塊，我們有一個global的board，就是github。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我聽起來你們全球的board，有特別排除公部門，特別是監管部門參加嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "不是，我們把每一個國家或者是從industry的point of view，認為這一些東西你應該要揭露，從投資者的角度，你應該要讓大家知道訊息。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "所以這裡面有很多country，大家所謂industry的標準，是嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我們要用這個來跟政府講說其實disclosure這一塊，也許將來你只要說你要register在我國家的話，你就是要在github達到多少transparency百分比。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "或者可以有好幾個不同的平台？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "所以也是可以跟內國的IPO的機制作結合？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "ICO、STO。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "ICO或者是STO。就是你在規範的時候，哪一些東西是政府要規範、哪一些東西我們業界已經做了。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "就是以自律作為法律的……" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "就是等於將來一個新的領域，尤其是有網路的因素在裡面的話，哪一些政府的東西非得你個別的政府管，哪一些東西我們自己業界管比你政府管更好。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "所以法律當然也可以處理不作為的部分？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "對，法律可以處理這一個部分政府不會要求你到這邊來揭露，因為公開訊息揭露有一個揭露的平台，現在不需要每一個國家這樣，因為你知道過去我們在做IPO case的話，一個公司比如你要到美國上市，那個是剝一層皮，有多少相關的人要進來review你的東西，弄一大堆東西，所以整個運作的部分，如果你現在放在一個全球擁有新科技的情況下，你不需要這麼多的review的process。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "所以目標還是如果要做得起來的話，我們還是要說服主要是國家的監管單位？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，至少你們board裡的那幾個國家？" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "那為什麼board當中為何沒有部分的監管單位代表？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "不，不，不……" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "不知道，怎麼願意接受？" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "其實目前很多政府……我們其實很知道政府進來，現在的環境都是不好的結果，你看中國、日本，政府目前我們覺得還不太懂區塊鏈的東西。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "你們的意思是，如果政府成熟了，不反對政府的加入。但是當他還是不成熟的時候，你們才要……" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "目前觀察還是不成熟。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "大家碰到的問題都是你要去教育政府要花很大的力氣，他懂了不表示知道怎麼管，即使要管也是全球的事情，你單一個國家都很難管，所以我們自己說投資人跟project的擁有者已經有一些訊息覺得ok了，政府不需要跳進來說要保護你投資的。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "但是這樣對政府來講有什麼誘因去做？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "確實。這塊原來也沒有regulation。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "這個非常有趣的事情，政府你憑什麼管我。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "是，我知道，可是要……" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我跟你講，現在在這一個ICO的環境裡面，我們看到非常清楚，這個國家要跳進來管，所有的人跟侯鳥一樣，所有的人就搬到另外一個地方去，所以你根本管不到。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "所以你管法制跟……" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "是啊！今天你跳進來，其實已經有太多這個例子了。" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "對，已經有很多大陸人跑過來講怎麼落地臺灣。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "對，因為大陸一管，他就出來。像日本先宣稱所有的exchange都要跟他register，從他announce以後，沒有新的exchange去日本。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "不過exchange是另外一個題目。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "Exchange也是一樣，exchange要管到哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "但是exchange比較難主張說「資訊揭露就好了」。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "對。我們其實只是先從資訊揭露。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我理解。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "同時後來不是也有臺灣十五個exchange簽了code of conduct。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，而且我有注意到你們新加坡的實體，並沒有說只能做ICO的transparency。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以未來也可以延伸到別的活動？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "已經有人說可以GITA for Exchange。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，當然，一次做一個。我想特別講一下，這個也是兩位的共同作品，數位通訊傳播法……" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "現在到底怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "等待三讀中。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我們當時弄到討論多少？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "已經出委員會了。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "大架構是一樣的，但是第五、六個，這一種宣示性的這個是後來加的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個是很有意思。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "一、二、三是有的，五至八，大家後來覺得在這一個委員會討論的時候，好像還差很多漂亮的（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "不過我要引這個的原因是，你們剛剛所講的多方利益關係人的治理架構，是扣合於8的，就是通訊傳播發展所須科學技術及相關的創新應用，需要交易安全跟消費信賴的環境，我們並不是空泛說第七項的多方利害關係人之類的，特別是說如果有安全跟信賴，這樣政府應建立公眾意見諮詢及參與機制。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "在說明裡面第八項中「此一機制之建立，不以政府建立者為限，相關團體組織基於網路治理之精神，當然亦得建立，政府並應以支持及協助……」，我覺得這個是比較成熟的態度，因為「以支持及協助」並不是來管、控制的意思，而是這邊揭露的資訊，政府可以納入治理結構的一部分，但是並不是土霸王，而是比較平起平坐的角色。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個雖然比較宣示性的，但是我覺得滿有價值的，因為宣示、告訴大家說：「我們從此之後的數位通訊傳播，尤其是關於交易安全、消費信賴，不一定都要靠政府建立的機制來達成。」" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "邏輯上可能政委覺得應該要在最前線，所以寫法還是如果我們想做的話就要做，並不是民間做就不做了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，他說「不以政府建立者為限」。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "所以我們看整個發展，政府可以自我感覺良好說我要進來管，你只要一管，所有的東西就搬走了，所以我覺得跟他用這樣講，他不太容易懂。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Uber沒有搬走（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "因為Uber基本上還是有一個實體的東西在這裡，你說貨幣這一些交易本身，真的完全可以在網路上作業。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "完全同意。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "所以其實坦白來講，為什麼我說這個平台非常重要，而且要從臺灣出來，那一天跟IPA講說我希望g0v往後三年，除了「vTaiwan」以後，還有一個「GITA」是從臺灣出發的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "如果這個東西可以做起來，就是真的在跟全世界學一件事，就是在一些政府這一種governance跟企業的SRO中間如何取得平衡。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我覺得這裡有一個我想呼應的，因為全世界的集會、言論、結社，也就是公民社會的空間，他們這邊有一個類似責信的組織，就是各界的人權團體，每一次發生一個扣分的事件，顏色就變，變紅色一點，他們是滾動式的檢討。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們現在在這一個CIVICUS Monitor上，選「亞洲」，再選「完全開放」，就剩一個點了（笑）。我們周邊的公民社會空間，就像剛剛講自律的能力都在縮減，因為政府就像蔡律師所說的，可能想要插手的部分越來越多，但是臺灣是一個很特殊的，在周邊，但是我們做的並不一定是被北歐或者是紐澳好，但是在各位發起的這幾個管轄領域，很明顯臺灣是一個leader，就是不管怎麼做就被查水錶的地方，本來有查水錶的，那個法律也廢止了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以，我覺得這個在論述上是很容易論述的，因為必須從完全開放的公民社會開始，如果不成功，至少你給下一個在開放的公民社會想要建立類似的治理機制的人一個示範，如果成功了，當然就可以照亮旁邊的這一些，不可能自己創新，但是可以平行輸出，像越南等等的方式，所以我覺得這一個方向是很切合g0v精神的，應該可以去找他們。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "現在這樣平台是已經有九個國家了，你一上去，我們推知九個國家就會看到，然後就可以開始併行了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "已經不是說只有先在這裡做，我們一上去就有九個國家。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "當然。不過，那九個國家的監理機關是不是能接受，那個是另外一回事。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "其實我們講的是，現在其他的國家，像越南的foundation council，基本上也是負責在跟政府溝通。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我知道。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "有這一個平台，就可以說其他的國家怎麼樣。像我們去參加越南的，他們也很希望知道別的國家怎麼做，因為大家都想搶這一個市場。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "如果臺灣現在做，別的國家慢慢有人做……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "就有人響應了。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "這個聲音只要越來越多。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "意思是，不用同時九個，只要有一、兩個，就會有骨牌的效應？" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "這個平台有其他八個國家看到，臺灣先做了，臺灣可以，他也不想落後。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "而且我這樣走一趟，每個國家都在爭取這個市場，都要看你怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以採取開放式創新，你剛剛提到Open Source及資料放在分散式存儲，這個並不是殖民式的外援，而是一種共同創作式的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "因為我們現在外交政策現在也改了，叫做「Taiwan Can Help」，這個也是主要的訊息。g0v常常在第一線，甚至比外交部、國合會那個是後面的後援，但是我覺得前面是很適合讓g0v來擔任。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "總結一下，我們去g0v提案的話，你會建議坑要如何挖？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "三個具體的：" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第一，你的原始碼先公開在github，雖然是不太美麗的版本，但是有一個比較美麗的設計，問人有沒有人願意來協助，這個是第一個。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第二，已經有一些測試用的基本訊息在上面了，但是這個還是放在你們的資料庫當中，所以隨時資料庫被攻擊了，那就什麼都沒有了，所以希望有人幫忙放到新機存儲去，讓大家更不容易被打倒、更有韌性。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第三，很重要的是去宣導接下來旁邊八個的經濟體，大概都會看著臺灣的做法，所以如果有一些相關的倡議、文件之類的，你可以徵求對於這八個經濟體有一些瞭解的朋友們，想一想如何把這一份目前只有英文的簡報，不管是網頁八國語言的版本——不是到細節，而是主訊息——我們如何確保在各個國家不同的文化當中，都是可以翻譯、給他們的監管者聽得懂。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個就可以徵求具有這一些外語、文化能力的人，光連github的標語或者是基本的網頁上訊息，是不是需要重新設定，在每一個不同的文化裡面，你可能倡議的方式、名稱等等，都要做一些調整。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "特別像在中文當中，就是這一件事也許你們的mission statement，或者是上面這一段是不是有可能翻譯到不同的文化，但是並不是逐字翻譯，而是按照那一個地方的監管要件，不是google翻譯，好比像要推公民科技，好比像在北上廣深的話，這四個字不講，就要改「社會企業」之類的，每一個地方有偏好的用詞跟用法，這個是文化翻譯，並不是google翻譯做到的，所以第三個是詢問大家對於一開始對於經濟體的文化翻譯，特別是這一小段扣著你們的mission，徵求大家來協定。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "只有5分鐘，我可以提三個？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，這三個都可以兩、三句話講完，並不困難，這樣子你同時給一般網站工程師跟所謂鏈圈工程師、文字工作者都有一些事情做，這樣子你的範圍就比較廣。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "我們可以有一個reference的準備，我們要準備PPT？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "要看哪一個PPT最適合。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "你們剛剛那個非常好，一些比較冗的部分可以拿掉，那個其實是一個pitch，也就是希望大家加入的，那一些部分可以拿掉，你可以換成示意圖，就像我剛剛看社會企業自律聯盟的示意圖，你可以多用一些icon，也就是很明確1、2頁知道是專案，從我的角度來看這個流程是什麼，這個部分1分鐘就結束完了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "另外，一個很簡單的是我們才剛開源出來，所以我們這邊畫得很美麗，其實網站這樣子挺有改善空間的，看大家是不是願意來幫忙美化，但是source code在這邊，所以很歡迎。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "再者，我們的資料是單一節點存儲，我們自己都是做分散式治理的，其實名不副實，所以希望大家放到檔案系統上。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第三，這個是跨國的專案，這個專案裡面對於不同國家、文化需要不同的訊息，所以剛好是有這一種外語專長、外國文化專長，如果認識那邊鏈圈的話，如何變成當地的治理環境聽得懂的訊息，這個也很歡迎寫文字、而不是寫城市的朋友們加入，這樣子5分鐘一定講得完。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "所以是12月8日之前需要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "就把這個簡報寫好，然後一直re到你5分鐘能講完。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "不需要先在哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Github要開，這個是一定的。然後像上傳IPFS等等，你自己開issue，這樣子大家一來就有明確的issue可以做，翻譯多國語言也可以開一個issue，你不一定真的要寫任何東西，你開issue就可以了，就是有一個眾人可以翻譯的，這個眾人的平台非常多，你一定很熟悉，不需要我來說，這樣就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "Jaclyn Tsai", "speech": "還有沒有？" }, { "speaker": "Kevin", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "好，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們就開始。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "我們先聊一些簡單的話題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，就像今天多倫多天氣非常好之類的。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "想問問看政委是不是第一次到多倫多訪問？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我之前大概都是轉機經過，之前是十幾年前去溫哥華，好像也有去過渥太華，但是在多倫多大概是停留幾個小時或者是最多一個晚上這樣。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "現在對於重返多倫多的感覺是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實這是我第一次真正到多倫多市區。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "對於這個城市、環境、人的感覺？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一印象其實是非常地舒服，因為天氣非常好，雖然據說前兩天下大雨，我們到的時候天氣非常明朗，今天主要是在多倫多大學進行工作坊的準備，多倫多大學裡面當然是非常開闊的，而且因為可能剛好碰到他們有一個畢業典禮，我們還在那個畢業典禮的大草坪上打卡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們準備的地方是在圖書館裡面，圖書館裡面也可以看到其實非常注重空間的規劃，像我們的小房間其實不管是隔音、白板或者是相關設施等等都是讓人覺得非常舒服。就像臺灣叫做「涵容性」（inclusiveness），就是不管你是各種身心狀態或者是需要各種不同的服務、設施等等，這邊大概都會讓你覺得不是特別去問，而是說這個得到本來就很方便，不管是坐輪椅或者是其他的東西來使用，這個是覺得非常舒服的一個地方。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "政委您剛剛提到inclusiveness，還有一個多倫多常常講到的是diversity，這裡不管是人種、文化，其實是非常多元，甚至於有很多臺灣來的朋友會覺得到這裡很舒服，覺得跟臺灣有一點像，你有沒有這種感覺？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，而且覺得大家彼此間不是出於禮貌，而是出於關心，臺灣是叫「人情味」，一些很小的，像在電梯的時候，大家都會先往後面望一下，幫忙hold住電梯或者是在排隊的時候，大家會很客氣、禮貌問說：「你是不是新來的？」就是純出自然的一些人情味。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "加拿大人非常地有禮貌、和善，加拿大跟臺灣也有很多共享的價值，我們講的民主、人權、自由、法治等等，所以加拿大跟臺灣有很多相近的地方，多倫多跟附近的「Toronto-Waterloo Corridor」聚集了非常多的高科技人才、非常多的新創公司，也有非常多的大學，都在做政委現在所做的一些創新的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我會來這邊主要的原因是，g0v零時政府這一個社群主要的媒體叫做「g0v news」，就是把全世界所有這一種公民科技發生什麼事情，好比像我們在臺灣的總統盃社會創新黑客松，臺灣自來水公司捐出了水壓、水流量的資料，就有AI的公民黑客幫大家去做出一個讓師傅們從有漏水到聽到漏水的時間縮短到1/10的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而這樣的工作只要一報導出來，不管是透過g0v news或者是什麼管道，像紐西蘭政府就發現了，這個團隊就正在紐西蘭政府一起解決缺水的問題，等於在氣候變遷上做了一些協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "g0v news裡面有很重要的一位編輯是Aaron Wytze，他夫人好像也是臺灣人，他雖然based in here，可是整天都跟臺灣的公民科技混，以前我不知道他怎麼這麼有時間跟臺灣社群混，後來才發現原來是駐處的計畫。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "他是多大的學生，他參加了global taiwan study的計畫，而這個計畫是我們的教育部跟多大共同出資所成立的一個計畫，除了有課程以外，也會開放給沒有選課的在校生許多的演講、獎學金計畫，讓他們去做一些跟臺灣有關的研究。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "這裡的學生對臺灣的興趣是非常廣泛的，不只有政治面、經濟面，事實上有社會面、文化面的各個層面，到臺灣去的時候，就會對臺灣有更多的認識，回來也舉辦公開的發表會，分享一些研究的計畫。Aaron因為這個計畫又有新的idea，成立「臺灣誌」Taiwan Gazette，就是把跟臺灣有關的新聞都編譯成英文，放在網站上，使這邊的朋友對臺灣有一些認識。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，因為我今天午餐的時候聽他說，臺灣也是有一些g0v公民科技社群的朋友有幫忙，像有一個叫做《報導者》，《報導者》是一個媒體，在臺灣算是相當左派的媒體，在加拿大可能是中間（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這個媒體好處是，報導臺灣的方方面面，都是用開放式的授權，我們叫做cc授權釋出，所以等於任何人可以把它翻譯起來改作，本來的那一些照片都可以在非營利的前提下任意使用，我發現這樣子對於大家更瞭解臺灣，就像剛剛處長所講的，不只是地緣政治上，而是文化與價值上的東西，這個是非常好的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此Aaron的想法是，他就開幾個google doc這一些文章貼上去，任何人只要願意加入翻譯，就翻譯一小段，翻譯品管沒有問題了，就貼到「臺灣誌」上，任何人都可以參加類似文化外交的情況。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "我們也有計畫叫做「Taiwan Alumni Accociation in Toronto」，是過去曾經用臺灣獎學金到臺灣念書的學生成立的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大概多少人？" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "目前在臉書上的成員有90多人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "滿多的。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "我想他們不見得完全曾經拿過獎學金去臺灣念書，而是對臺灣有興趣，將來有興趣想要去臺灣研究或者是讀書，但是可以把不只是像您講的地緣政治方面、各個產業、學術、文化，對臺灣友好的力量都結合起來。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "政委是不是可以跟我們談一下，您到這裡想要跟多倫多朋友們傳達的訊息是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我其實身上穿的T-shirt就叫做「TaiwanCanHelp」，其實就放了聯合國17項的永續發展目標，永續發展目標大家都知道其實是2015年時，所有開發中、已開發的國家都不區分，也就是2030年要改變我們的思路，來作經濟、環境、社會互相加強，而不是彼此取消、彼此抵銷的新的發展方案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一件事其實在臺灣現在是全力在推行，不只是永續會，每一年做出自願性國家報告，我們民間的社群，包含社會部門跟私部門，透過像USR、CSR的這樣方案，其實就是把本來在做的事，其實我們在周邊做非常多的數位機會中心、女性創業者培力，還有做公共衛生、農業技術、衛生、醫療輸出，這個用SDG重新分類、定位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣大家就可以知道不管是在世界的哪一個角落，其實不一定是對開發中的國家援助，也可以跟其他的，像紐西蘭——紐西蘭當然不能算開發中國家——但是他們也會碰到氣候變遷。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "跟他們交換意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是交換彼此的best practice，像我們這一次帶來是如何在很分歧的理念中，快速找到共識的技術，也就是如何做民主的技術。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在午餐的時候也有聊到不管之前Uber在這邊的營業，又或者是這邊Airbnb讓這邊房租比較高的問題，把它變得比較讓大家所知，這一些事都是臺灣在討論的題目，我們以前在臺灣就是用線上的工具，讓人能夠快速獲得共識，而這一些共識再透過面對面的討論與直播，讓大家知道Uber就是在臺灣要納稅、納保及納管，把大家的共同願望變成政策，他們其實都看到，而且很羨慕，所以希望學到如何操作這一套方法之外，主要還是把這一個精神，也就是政府某些事不能只是完全政府做，而是公民社會必須要出一點力的話，把公民社會的興趣引上來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天早上我跟一位在這邊的創業家聊天，他也是臺灣人，他7歲就過來的，他想要創業是好像這邊有一個新的政策，就是生了小孩的母親可以請到一年半的產假，他希望有一件事的解決方案，讓她可以馬上在一年半之內受過基本訓練之後，就變成托兒所的園長。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在一年半裡面的履歷比較好看，二方面也不用付比較高的托育經費，在這邊反而比較貴，反而可以收別人付的托育的錢，這樣就可以變成職涯不會中斷，又可以有更好的人際網絡，這個社會創新也是臺灣跟加拿大共通的創新方向，不只是為了賺錢，真的想要讓社會上像剛剛所講的，也就是新的媽媽們可以有一個更好的社會位置。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "政委您講的這一些臺灣可以在這裡跟多倫多或者是加拿大的朋友互相分享的這一件事，一位多倫多大學教授說臺灣創新的idea，像g0v好像是影響世界潮流的發明，是「T-WAVE」，就是Taiwan Wave，他說像K-POP一樣，「T-WAVE」可以影響世界，您就是這一個代表人物，您怎麼看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實像這樣子，上個星期g0v義大利才剛開幕，他們第一個專案是 budget.g0v.it，就是2012年臺灣g0v的專案，也就是預算的視覺化，因為其實預算書這麼厚一本，公民也不會這麼容易有興趣；但是當它變成視覺化的時候，這樣很好玩。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，如果關心像剛剛講的公共托育相關政策，就可以先看跟他相關的預算是在成長或者是消退，如果那一筆特別的預算如果對於其運用有一些想法，臺灣全部1,300個各部會一年以上的預算，全部都在「join.gov.tw」的平台上，任何人都可以留言，專業的公務員就可以出來回答你，等於不需要經過陳情或者怎麼樣的程序，可以直接就事論事討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "義大利很羨慕，他開幕的時候，Jeffrey Sachs也是提出永續發展目標的那一位朋友有出席，因為民主現在在全世界都面臨一些是不是好像激起群眾不舒服情緒的人，反而在民主裡面產生優勢，這一種就事論事的人，反而在民主裡面有一點劣勢的感覺，所以Jeffrey Sachs是說我們這一些讓就事論事的事重新變得好玩，他覺得是民主現在都需要的一個公共建設，所以我們在不管紐約或者多倫多、渥太華等等的分享，都是認同這個理念，包含紐澳等等有組在一起，也就是「開放政府夥伴關係」，這個是我們一直都進行實質合作的夥伴關係。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "您覺得這個是臺灣軟實力跟暖實力的展現嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "軟實力當然是不用問過臺灣，這個想法義大利人就直接用了，但是我們說暖實力跟軟實力還是不同，也就是「暖」的部分是我們在創新分享的時候，我們是用一個平等的態度，不是好像半殖民者的態度，並不是我們做出一套非買不可，或者是要買就買一整套。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們這兩天的工作坊，我們一共會介紹十幾個不同的工具，這每一個工具可以挑著用之外，每一個都可以再有所創造、發明，他們做了之後，也就是我們的公共政策也會因為他們的發明而變得更好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們之前跟冰島朋友們的合作，或者是像我們現在有一組人在馬德里合作，都是這樣子雙向互利的，這個是我想暖實力最大的特色，是開放式的創新，大家都是加進去。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "這一次政委在多倫多會透過工作坊、演講，接觸到大學的學生，也會接觸到一些教授、學界的人，也會接觸到一些創新界的人，也會接觸到一些政府官員，希望讓多倫多各層各界的人更可以知道臺灣提供的暖實力，然後增加雙方的互動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "尤其是在創新，也就是我們要去MaRS的地方，我其實很期待，不只是全加拿大公民科技界的一些領袖人物會去，好像也有在這邊實際做創新創業的領導人，大概都會在那一場碰面。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "是。MaRS可以說北美數一、數二最大的創新基地，MaRS有超過150家的新創公司，而且其中也有一些AI界非常領先的智庫在裡面，所以跟政委都是同一個領域的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像深度學習的發明人。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "對，沒有錯，像Geoffrey Hinton是AI的教父，他就是創造Vector Institute的人，多倫多digital community一些人跟政委有一些對談，相信都會有一些火花。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "您有沒有什麼期待？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，其實臺灣這一、兩年，我們變成亞洲AI的研發重鎮，以前其實臺灣在學術界AI是很強的，但是通常發了paper之後就被挖到矽谷去了，這兩年常常有很多矽谷回來的朋友，並不是一個人回來，而是帶一團人回來，所以看到幾乎所有大的跨國集團，像Google、IBM、FB、Amazon、NVIDIA，反正講得出名字這一些，像Uber，大概都有AI相關的跟臺灣交流，或者是設1、200人的AI研發中心在臺灣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們檢討了一下，我們做對了什麼事，很可能因為我們提供了很完整的實驗場域，因為以前AI的研究比較像抽象，也就是下圍棋，而現在都是具像的，像自駕車或者是機器人這一些，這個需要的軟體、硬體、服務體驗及設計整合，全部在臺灣都有，你如果在別的地方，可能要找四、五個不同的地方，然後透過外包的方式，溝通的成本就變得很高，但是在臺灣的話，這一些都是現成的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在說有一個是人才不怕外流，因為外流就可以對流，對流就可以帶很多人回來，我的主要訊息是多倫多可能也面臨類似的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "非常有趣的事情，就是MaRS的CEO講，過去都是加拿大的人才難留，都到美國去，但是他覺得在這一段時間，人才反而回流，像美國、歐洲的人才聚集到MaRS，他認為1/3的人才都是從別的地方進來。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "加拿大的創新能力非常強，研發能力也非常強，但通常他們的研發並沒有到最後成為他們自己加拿大的品牌公司。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是規模化的公司。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "他們大部分就會把創新的idea賣出去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就被購併了。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "對，所以加拿大的野心也不大，現在並沒有一個加拿大名牌很大的公司，您覺得在這一方面是不是可以協助他們做一些商品化？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我覺得規模化的這一件事，創新的規模化，之前硬體、半導體及代工等等方面，臺灣其實是有非常好的資本、經驗，但是我們在現在看到的是，如果你是解決實際的社會問題，像Gogoro解決的是我們現在節能減碳全部要電動化，但是臺灣用得最多的是摩托車，其實電動化起來是最困難的，這一件事是透過設計思考的方式把它解決。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是其實在後面有非常多的供應鏈，像我們最近想要測試的Uber AIR，是垂直起降的直升機，其實可以從頂樓飛到頂樓。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是很關鍵的電池這一些組件是臺灣很重要的技術之後，這個想法才變得可行跟規模化，我想創新分兩個階段：一個是你想要一個新的想法，他可以解決某個社會環境或者是經濟問題；第二個是您讓他成本及進入的門檻，低到現在誰都可以負擔得起。接著並不是cost down壓下去，而是找到整個市場有一段實驗的機會，看我們現在有無人車、無人機及無人船的這一些AI創新，到底社會覺得解決的問題跟發明者覺得想要解決的問題，重疊的地方在哪裡，如果沒有重疊，那就絕對賣不出去，如果有重疊，我們就可以把這個創新規模化，甚至引到發明者沒有想像過的地方去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以共同創作的精神，像沙盒可以違法一年的精神，我想我會很願意跟加拿大的朋友分享，所以不一定是競爭的關係，而是新概念在臺灣驗證，或者是臺灣的新概念在這邊驗證，主要我們的永續價值是一樣的，所以雙方的soft landing不一定是一整家公司搬過來，而是人才、想法及技術交流。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "大學的研究、企業的funding有非常強的結合，這也是MaRS會這麼成功的原因，還有「Toronto-Waterloo Corridor」會這麼成功的原因，我們在國內的情況怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "國內現在其實正在檢討這一件事，學生確實在學習的這個階段及出社會應用的階段，在以前分得太開了，好像畢業才開始想說到底要解決什麼問題，才在找工作等等，所以我們的學位授予法，現在其實已經快要三讀通過了，在未來大學的階段，你唸個一、兩年，甚至兩年拿到副學士，就拿這一個想法，不管是創業或者是加入現有的經濟活動，或者是跑來加拿大或者是做任何的事，在這個過程中還是可透過遠距視訊的學習繼續去累積你的學分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且以前只能在一個系裡面待個四、六年，不然就要考轉系考，不然在新的學位授予法裡面完全沒有這個問題，如果出去外面發現本來學一個領域，但是出去外面學另外一個領域，你可以用整個學院都是你的資源，甚至整個大學系統都是你的資源。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以假設你改變世界的計畫，你做了六年，真的也做出了一些成果來，你可能在這中間已經修了三所大學，其中一所甚至不在臺灣非常多不同的學程，有些是遠端、有些是實作做的，這個時候產業的力量才可以進入高教的系統，不只是產業，包含社會、社區的營造、合作社，反正只要對永續是有貢獻的，都可以放到這個大學系統裡，等到你這六、七年做出一些成果來了，就直接拿博士學位，中間甚至跳過碩士的過程，所以整個高教的系統是在重新設計，這也是配合明年國民教育新課綱在小學一年級、國中一年級、高中一年級，學生自己找到問題、解決問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這還有一個好處是，家長比較不會覺得創業失敗有什麼了不起，因為這個也是學習的一部分，比較能夠接受創新與創新的風險。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "加拿大的教育是很好的，他們也很希望國際的學生來這邊唸書，同時我們也透過很多計畫，希望吸引加拿大的人到臺灣去看一看，像我們有青年渡假打工的計畫，然後雙方又免簽，所以我們很希望吸引年輕人到臺灣交流。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "透過這樣子彼此認知的方式，大家就會知道一下彼此的優勢跟彼此的價值、實力在哪裡，彼此可以多增加一些交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我看了剛剛 Global Taiwan Studies，他們關心的真的是全部都有，從原住民族、文化及各方面平權或者是各式各樣的工作，我覺得越深入瞭解彼此的文化，我覺得才比較真的可以創造共同的價值，這也是我這一陣子跟加拿大朋友一直準備這一個工作坊時，深切感覺到我們不太需要文化純粹經濟上或者是經濟的地緣政治上的討論，反而一下子就可以進入對共同價值，也就是對於平權、剛才講到多元性等等的這一些東西追求，好像不是掛在口中，而是幾乎一種共同的信念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像那一位創業家，他覺得多倫多是很棒的地方，甚至一些本來看起來是橋下的閒置空間，現在都是請藝術家把它弄得漂漂亮亮的，講一講之後就馬上反省說是30初頭有滿好工作的千禧時代會這樣想，但是說不定城市裡面還有許多無家者或者是其他人有不同的生命經驗等等，但是能夠反射性這樣講，就是完全是以一個以社會關係為優先思考，而不是自己賺大錢為優先思考。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "非常謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也謝謝處長。我想我們先錄到這邊，也快要半個小時了。之前好像范雲老師、黃孫權老師都有演講過，未來如果有訪團要到渥太華或者是什麼，如果留下來兩、三天的話，除了在多倫多大學演講之外，處長有沒有什麼推薦我們可以做的事？假設我們的次長……" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "如果國內來的是我們中央政府首長……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是我的同事們。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "中央政府首長會希望找聯邦官員，我覺得加拿大的學界企業界，他們的實力也非常強，他們跟政府的合作也是結合的，就像這一次安排的。" }, { "speaker": "徐詠梅", "speech": "科技部長來的時候，是在聯邦跟官員作一些交流，在這邊是跟多倫多大學、滑鐵盧大學學界有交流，就沒有在這裡找我們省級的地方官員。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。不過這樣子政治性沒有那麼強，我覺得反而好事，像我們剛剛講的這一些價值，本來就是不分黨派的，其實理論上我們行政院也是中立的，關心的是一些普世的價值，我們越不去挑撥一些政治性的東西，我覺得大家也會把臺灣看作一個很可靠的盟友。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Your first brush with civic tech was in Boston?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I was in Boston. I was starting my own non-profit. The non-profit was..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Basically, in the US, people get new smartphones all the time. I was collecting used smartphones and redistributing them to the homeless, teaching them how to use smartphones." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "That’s how I got connected to the innovation arm at the mayor’s office. They’re called M-O-N-U-M, Mayor’s Office of New Urban Mechanics. A part of what they do is connect the government to private companies, and its citizens. Because I had my own non-profit, I could meet..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Actually, anyone can meet with someone from the mayor’s office. You book it. It’s a public calendar. You book a meeting. They talk to you. They learn about what you need. They connect you to someone in the government." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Through that, I met some key people who ran the homeless programs in Boston. They helped me with my non-profit. That was very easy. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What was the name of your non-profit back then?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It was called Mobilizr, but it’s now called GridRise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mobilizr." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Then we changed to targeting senior citizens because there’s so many issues with maintaining a relationship. A lot of people we were working with, we would never see them again. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. It’s more transactional in nature, almost." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "We were like, we need to build a relationship. We need to see that they’re changing their way of life. Senior citizens actually was the best fit for what we were doing. We got iPads put in senior homes and taught them how to use technology. In the end, that’s what the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...opportunity enabling, potentially." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, empowering them. Other things that the mayor’s office did that I just learned about in class, so I took a class about this as well. They solved a lot of problems that the government couldn’t solve on their own, because they don’t have the technology or the developers or the right talent. They would create RFPs, and then different start-ups in Boston would take that RSP..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Respond to part of the RFPs. Is that competitional in the sense that only one group that would solve one at a time?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yes. It’s a competition. A lot of things they tackled were very small problems, city-level problems, but very smart ways of solving it." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "One example is garbage collection, which sounds simple, but the way they used to collect garbage, which...I think Toronto does it the same way right now, is just someone goes around and collects the garbage with one route. It’s a fixed route." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "The problem is, Boston traffic can get very congested and you don’t know which garbage you should pick up first. They installed smart garbage bins, so they only pick up the garbage that’s at full capacity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Then they figured out a way to do it with Waze, so they partnered with Waze. Have you seen this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I’ve seen it." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Then the garbage pickup trucks would not obstruct traffic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow, that’s life-changing. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s pretty cool stuff. I think it’s cool." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "But it’s just collecting garbage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have a very good friend named Luke Closs. He co-founded a startup with a few colleagues... they’re all Canadian, called ReCollect. They use, again, mobile phone to send SMS and so on to notice people when to take the trash out. They also partner with a lot of cities to do the city-level messaging, because if anything, that’s the one thing that citizens will actually look at. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah. Texting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, and also to remind people when to take out their recyclables and things like that, because just like in Taiwan they collect different things on different days. It’s called ReCollect." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, I like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think waste management is one of the most interesting things around." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’m glad you like it too. The other thing I noticed...This is not government-related but when I was there, that was 2014 so it was a while ago, but a lot of the schools run boot camps about entrepreneurship. There’s definitely the hackathons that are weekend events. To me, it’s not long enough." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I participated in a lot of hackathons. I also ran some hackathons, and I find that you don’t have enough time to think through the problem, and then people aren’t learning the right tools. They don’t have enough time to learn how to solve a problem right and then they just rush everything and then at the end..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our hackathons are three months long." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, OK. Great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We kind of abuse the term hackathon already. But yeah, go ahead. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I was going to suggest that you should do longer style boot camps. Then, for people like me, Taiwanese immigrants, I really care to help, I want to get involved, but I don’t know where to start. It would be very interesting if we could create boot camps and recruited, obviously, Taiwanese students in Taiwan, but also people of Taiwanese descent, maybe." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "You’d get a more diverse experience. A lot of people I know want to go back. They don’t know the opportunities, because they don’t have a network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Toronto University has a Taiwanese studies program." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Studies?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A three-years program. One of our very good friend, Aaron Wytze, who was the one who caused all this conversation earlier, is going to meet for lunch." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s kind of interesting, because he used to work for the Foreign Office Canada as a dispatch to Taiwan, but after he shifted from Foreign Service to journalism he still very much cares about Taiwan. Instead of talking to government people, he now talks to g0v people as part of the correspondent -- the main correspondent, actually -- for the English g0v News project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you go to g0v.news, that is our main outreach network for the civic tech networks. Last week in Italy they started a g0v.Italy. They started with exactly the inaugural project the Taiwan people started, which is a visualization of a budget and how people can respond to individual items of the budget to enable a conversation around specific items, instead of something abstract as a whole." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s really powerful. All the municipalities in Taiwan are on board with something like that, and so this message is really, really spreading." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one very concrete way, if you would like to meet Aaron and be a correspondent." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Does he live here?" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "He’s studying in Toronto University." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "He’s studying at U of T or he works at U of T?" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Study. He’s pursuing his master’s degree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "His thesis is related to g0v, right?" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "I’m not sure." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "I’m not sure his topic, but I thought it’s more about international relationahips." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That’s right. About the network of civic entrepreneurs, or however you call them." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I went to a different university in Canada. There’s a student chapter. It was a Taiwanese club, but they didn’t have information on how to connect back to Taiwanese government or anything like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s more like a diaspora than anything." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It was more for socializing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’d be great if all these different student clubs knew about these kinds of opportunities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v.news network is really interesting because everything is published bilingually. The focus is actually Aaron’s work and...It’s interesting. I don’t even know his English name." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Jason Liu." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Jason. Thank you. [laughs] Jason’s work is respectively tried to frame something that’s innovative in Taiwan and bring it to a international audience, or to bring something that happens locally -- it could be around waste management, why not? -- that they think the Taiwanese people would be interested in, and also then bring it back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of exchanges both ways." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I definitely need to meet Aaron, then." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re meeting for lunch, so if you don’t have anything for lunch." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "All day. [laughs] I have to check with my boyfriend, but for sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He’s local, so you don’t have to meet him today." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s so great. I definitely have a lot of perspectives I saw abroad, Boston’s one example, or even in my travels that I don’t know where to share it or what to do with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The easiest way is to have Aaron do a interview with you." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "It doesn’t have to be Aaron. You can write an article." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "And submit to g0v.news." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. After the g0v Summit, which is this really huge event that we ran how many months ago..." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "...I didn’t say summit. I said submit. She can just write an article..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...I know, but I’m saying, after the Summit, there was..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "When is the summit?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "October." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "It’s October, just passed. October 5th to 7th." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Last month, a few weeks ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I was about to say is that after the summit there’s many people in Japan, and also other countries, but primarily Japan, actually. They post on their blogs, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, there’s someone from PRC, as well, who wrote up their experience engaging with the Taiwanese community. They submitted to Gov Zero News for syndication. It gets distributed quite widely." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "What’s PRC? Is that China?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "PRC being the politically neutral term to describe the People’s Republic of China government." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s not Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s China? Thanks." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Taiwan is ROC." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I know. I’m always..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan is currently being governed by an entity that calls itself \"ROC\", but yes. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t take sides or, rather, I take all the sides, which is why I always use unambiguous terms. Like when I say \"China\" people have different imaginations, but if I say \"PRC\" I mean specifically PRC." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I saw that you also manage the center of innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Social Innovation Lab. That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "How is that going? Is there a lot of...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thousands of activities." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "You guys are very active." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We actually meet there almost every Wednesday evening for dinner. Pizza, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is how it looks like. This is my office. You see it in my slides or talks. Sometimes there’s self-driving tricycles roaming around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The rule is very simple. If you have any activity -- there’s huge amount of activities -- that you can say what impact are you going to make on any of the Sustainable Development Goals, then the lab is available for you for free." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea, very simply put, is that we want to cross-pollinate as much as possible. Our lady, like people who are data scientists and also work for gender equality, they can tick two SDG boxes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure that there’s many concurrent events happening at the same time so people discover each other. We also encourage recurring events, like the vTaiwan Meetup, who is always every Wednesday, every 7:00 until 9:00 PM." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the space opens until 11:00 PM every night, after events people mingle. There’s a resident chef. There’s good food. People can enjoy this atmosphere, very much like what you describe in Boston." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I also have a office hour. Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM everybody can talk to me, provided they agree to this radical transparency arrangement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really going well, mostly because the space, itself, is co-created by social innovators. They’re not government designed. The soccer field you see is designed by a large charity that works with people with Down syndrome. Charity are brilliant artists, so they turned their art into public installations, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You really feel the vibe of innovation when you walk into the space. Starting next year we’re going to expand out to the rest of Taiwan, as well. Taichung has already started. Taoyuan, as well." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I have a few follow-up questions on the groups that get involved. You said they’re not government actors. They’re small groups, individual people. How do they know what the biggest problems are, or is it what they see and experience and decide this is the problem they want to solve?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a great question. Ideally, they would self-organize, but for people who are really looking, like just entering the field, we have a annual summit called the Asia Pacific Social Enterprise Summit, which is not the Gov Zero Summit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "G0v is more, I would say, civic tech as its core, but with civic media, with activists, and all the social innovators at a perimeter, but with the open innovation as its core to hold everybody together. The Social Enterprise Summit takes a different end goal. It takes the sustainability of business model as the main thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It depends on the first question to ask. In g0v people always ask is your idea published somewhere? Have you written it up? Would you like to submit to the g0v News? Exactly the first questions you asked. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What would you have to share? That’s the first question g0v people asks, but in the Social Enterprise Summit and the related circles the first question is..." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "How do you survive? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. How do you survive? What’s your sustainability plan, and how do you tie into the larger ecosystem? Are you mostly relying on CSR or are you doing business development? Is your income sources all grants or has it embedded into the supply chain?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a different conversation. There’s many people overlapping, though, but under the umbrella of social innovation. The civic tech side and social enterprise side are just now slowly converging so that they can see each other eye to eye." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This year’s g0v Summit has a much more than before emphasis on inclusivity and the people with disabilities, people with different social/environmental needs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s even a agricultural co-op that share their year, or something like that, and how they use sustainable farming methods to work on agricultural lands without destroying the renewability of the land, which doesn’t used to be the mainstream g0v civic tech message, but right now it’s, as of this year, starting to be one of the main messages to connect back to the land and to the solidarity of the people." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Some new themes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure Yun-Chen can talk more about this idea, because it’s shepherded by the grant process. Without a grant process people won’t discover the problem. The way you described it, people would just work on whatever they want to work on, but the focusing funnel of the grant process, that’s the main innovation that gov zero people has introduced, and then I get to eat something." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Sorry, you go eat." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "No, that reminds of -- it’s different, but -- at Stanford, the design school, they have this program. It’s a fellowship that people apply to. They also choose different themes every year. Sometimes, the themes are the same, but they are very specific on, \"We’re looking for people who are trying to improve education.\" Or something like that, so they gather like-minded people together." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Then usually it’s about someone who’s already made some progress in their business or the idea, which I also really like. It’s more about taking something that’s already a good idea, but scaling it to maximum impact." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "This year, g0v’s, the original theme is open source civic ecosystem. In Taiwan so far, it’s that we have very good engineers. We’ve got very good ideas, but we have very few fundings and very few people can take civic tech as their profession." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Why is that?" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Why is that? First of all, in Taiwan the NGOs that can afford an engineering team in-house are...not an engineering team, one engineer is already very few." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very M-shaped. In Taiwan, there’s a few really huge non-profits, like Tzu-Chi." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "They are not technology focused." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, they do work on technologies. There is simply just a huge number of small NGOs, which cannot afford..." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Could not afford an engineer or something like that. The g0v grant is a very small amount, but it’s a start." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "It’s around USD$10,000 to USD$15,000 for one team for six months. Just to support them to grow into a bigger idea. Then, now we have almost finished our third round, and we realize that to push the project further, after the first round, you need to find someone to take over the second round." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Just like a VC process, you give the seed round, and then you need to find someone for the next round. Also, we try to have some fellowship in Taiwan as well, but so far there’s no process but so many different fellowships in the world." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "For example, Code for America and Code for Australia and Pakistan, they have fellowships that are sending experts into the government. We are looking for that opportunities in Taiwan as well." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Also, looking for international fundings, because local fundings doesn’t realize that the civic tech is very worth to invest in. Also, I think in Taiwan, I think at this moment, we haven’t bring the sustainability models to the civic tech people together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s what the civic tech people can really learn from the social enterprise’s circle. That’s all their focus." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Like my project right now, that is we are taking government funding, and we don’t know if we can take that funding next year. Our sustainable model is quite questionable at this point." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "For sure. I think that’s definitely one of the shortcomings I saw, too, when I was in Boston. Maybe it’s a little different, but there’s a lot of interesting academic projects going on. Because I was a little different, I came from a business perspective; I went to school for business and worked at multiple companies." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I mostly think, actually, in terms of: how would you run this business? I was frustrated seeing a lot of academic projects because, to me, I just didn’t know how would you create it as a product." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "How did you think, like New York, there are some like the civic hall, they are incubating some civic tech start-ups. What’s your opinion on them?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Actually, I think that is a little bit more accelerator-minded. They tend to find a startup team with different skill sets. Whereas I found that in pure academia, it was more -- not always, but for me -- what I saw is more like-minded skill set people." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "To me, cross-functional teams, that’s the strength, and having someone like a product manager, or CEO role, that would be their job, is how do I find a consumer? How do I create, now, a revenue model, etc.?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think it’s really important, because I saw a lot of people who either think revenue is bad, charging money is bad. \"Because I’m doing something for good, it should be free.\" There needs to be a balance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re totally fixing that view in Taiwan, that economical sustainability is nothing to be ashamed of. It’s right here with social and environmental sustainability." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I don’t know if you guys have heard of Scratch?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, I met him over teleconference in an event and had a..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, Mitch Resnick?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We had a conversation." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Mitch Resnick. I did an internship as part of MIT Media Lab. I saw a little bit of what their teams did. That was one of the more, I think, phenomenas where they didn’t really plan for it to grow so quickly and latch on, but they were able to key into something." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Which was that teachers were scared to teach coding, because most of them didn’t really know how to code. They’ve created something that teachers can learn and feel confident in teaching." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think that was a product-market fit that was just the perfect mix. A lot of times, products don’t have that organically, the perfect fit. You need someone to explore intentionally, and then maybe adjust the product or find a different market, and grow it from there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How is this Scratch team funded, though?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Lego is one of the primary sponsors. I believe it’s called also the Lego Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s in it for Lego?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Actually, I think Scratch in particular, I’m not sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Lego has its own thing going, the Mindstorm thing, right?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yes. I was going to say, Mitch and I think other people of that lab have made Mindstorms, and other more directly Lego-related products. I believe Scratch maybe was inspired as well, because block-based programming, it’s Lego blocks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’m not sure what the benefit is, otherwise. I think it’s just philanthropy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK. Yeah, now that I think about it, the way the blocks in Scratch fits, it looks a little bit like Lego blocks, so maybe it’s product placement." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "There’s definitely a correlation. No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just kidding, for the record." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Actually, I think that the benefit is that Lego is an educational toy, so it’s all about supporting STEM and those things, which are very popular in these days." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the Scratch team is now focusing on making the experience actually bearable on iPad, because the old, Flash-based model doesn’t work." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Scratch Junior, you mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "The app?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, I think they’re working on version three or something like that, which is not an app. It’s just a native web page that also works really well on iPad. I am really looking forward to that because I think smaller screens in ed tech, smaller screens, they really distract children." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything that has a larger screen, I think, has a much higher chance of actually teaching social skills, whilst using the screen as interactive medium, because two people can look at it at the same time. That’s what I mean." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "There’s co-play. Hopefully, the kids can actually, because the problem with children, especially someone who’s five or under, their fingers are not very precise. You need a large touch area, or they get really frustrated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At which age do they use Apple pencil?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Apple pencil. I think they need to first know how to hold an object, so probably more grade one, two." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Seven?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Right now, I don’t know if you know this, but I’m currently creating apps for babies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know, yeah. I’ve checked them out. They look awesome." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re the product manager?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, Sago mini. It’s actually right around the corner." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Award-winning.\"" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, that’s a marketing thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Choice of parents.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, that’s embarrassing, but yeah. It was influenced by Apple, but we recently added an AR feature. I found that to be very tough, because four-year-olds don’t understand AR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, I was about to say. They’re still in the transitional space in their mind, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "They don’t yet know what’s supposed to be in reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Reality." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Exactly, so they think when they see through the camera, it’s there, and they don’t understand that that’s an effect in place. The other thing is, they don’t always hold the tablet properly, because theyir hands are small. A lot of times, a tablet is face down on the table." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My nephew is three-and-a-half. I know exactly what you’re talking about. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "This all goes back to product-market fit." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Just because the technology exists, you need to understand the need for it, and what the audience is gaining from it. Is the audience ready to use it? Just as I found as well for smartphones, for different spectrums of homelessness, there’s different needs, and a different mental capacity." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Basically, what can they do with a smartphone at that stage in their life? That’s what I realized very quickly. I had this dream of, \"Oh, once you have a smartphone, you can write your resume on there, and apply to jobs through it.\"" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "A lot of people are not ready for that. A lot of people, even just watching YouTube videos, that helps them feel normal. That was step one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I was very changed by that experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the MIT Solve -- I think that’s the name, Solve, as in solution -- partnered with what they call the Digital Superhero Academy in Thailand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They thought they wanted something interactive, and as it turns out, just getting social workers to record essential life skills with good, local cultural awareness and narrative, and make the people who are part of a disadvantaged group feel that they can watch it, and bring something useful to their community, that’s actually what they want. Nothing overly interactive, just appropriately designed for their particular use case." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I wish I could do more of that in my everyday life, which is parking my own bias aside, and then getting in touch with more different groups of people, and understanding they think differently from me. Their needs are not the same." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "When they wake up, they’re thinking of other things, like, \"Do I have a shelter for my kid to live in next month?\" Once you can empathize, it changes the conversation you’d have." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "And of course, what I can do for them, or what they can teach me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have you received any ethnography training, or..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Not traditional ethnography, but I’ve done a lot of design thinking workshops, which is more about...From IDEO, that kind of framework." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our office is heavily influenced by the IDEO mindset. We have people from CIID doing interaction design, we have people from RCA doing service design. It’s all design thinking based." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think ethnography is unique though, it’s not just design thinking. Design thinking uses that as one of user survey or personal creating methodologies, but the method itself comes from cultural anthropology, which takes a very non-solution view, a more immersive view on things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are g0v contributors who are not part of our office proper, but they use ethnographic methodologies. I’m pretty sure MG Lee used that as her paper, her thesis. She basically is in cultural anthropology, and studies g0v, using ethnographic methods, by immersing herself into the g0v community, and then writing something about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have also worked with Yu-Shan Tseng, a human geographer. Which is again, exactly like cultural anthropology, except focusing on space instead of people. It’s this at the center. She studies space and the interactions enabled by the social fabric and the social infrastructure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As if the space itself is alive, and people are just its inhabitants. Still, like she does ethnography on the Social Innovations Lab as its subject." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "And the spaces in there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Both processes, I think, have taught me, personally, a lot. Well, I’m their subject, their field research subject, but I really learned a lot about how to kind of step into somebody’s shoes, and just put all your existing bias aside, using those methodologies." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I never thought about the space, but that makes a lot of sense. Even recently, I was thinking about food, and how food is a reflection of your culture and your history. That could be a way of people don’t know a lot about cultures. I was thinking, food is the common thing that, or usually, the first contact people have." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Say Mexican or Korean food. For people in Toronto, that’s their first contact with Korea etc. I was thinking, how could you use that first experience to introduce someone to even deeper cultural significance, or get them interested in that culture? This space is a new one that I thought of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a museum here that’s shaped like a shoe?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Bata Shoe Museum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I think one of the contributors to that from Taiwan brought a 藍白拖, a blue-white slipper. I think, is that the right English translation? Slipper. That’s just very simple. It’s better with the visuals, but it’s kind of like bubble tea. It’s Taiwan national identity outfit." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It is, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Shoes are easier to transport than food and easier to get everybody to try on... Like literally step into each other’s shoes." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I like that analogy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s also space, in a sense, because it’s close to your body. Something along that line would be very interesting for an intercultural conversation." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I just want to talk a little bit about funding, and about funding issues. There’s two things. One is, have you connected a lot of the different groups, whether it’s social enterprise, or the civic tech groups to, I guess, more traditional...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "VCs?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Just private companies. The HTCs of the world, that kind of companies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yes." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Are they interested in funding?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we’re asking now is, starting next year, they all have their CSR reports." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the new Company Act of Taiwan, they have all the obligation to declare it publicly, no matter their capital size, as long as they’re publicly listed. What we’re going to ask them is to use the SDG index, to index their work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be overseas, it could be in Taiwan, it doesn’t matter. We want to know how many HTCs of the world are doing no polity? How many are doing plastic waste management of the marine species, and things like that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can put it on a map, visually, and let the people who are working on civic tech or social entrepreneurship to discover them without a lot of overhead. At the moment, it’s not that they’re not interested, it’s just the overhead of talking individually to patrons or collaboratives." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll be very frank here, and say to talk to traditional Taiwan grant makers from the government, or from the older generation of manufacturing or hardware communities, the better you are at pitching to them, the worse you are at pitching to Y Combinator or any of those international outfit. It’s almost diametrically opposite." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very different language, very different thinking, very different values. There’s no right or wrong, because OEM, ODM, semiconductor, these are Taiwan’s core economic supply chain lines, value chain lines. If you talk in that language, it’s very easy to get funding actually." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then this whole, maximizing impact, triple bottom line, all this." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Where social capital doesn’t mean much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social capital, it doesn’t mean much. You almost have to create two slides, which someone has a lot of experience of. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Pitching to different audiences." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, pitching to that more ODM, OEM generation and pitching to the more SDGS generation. What we are now doing, instead of pitching individually, to put everybody’s goals and concerns on the same map, and also working with universities, which all now receive funding from the Ministry of Education and what we call universities, social responsibility or USR programs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which again will be SDG-indexed, so that their students can work as part of their capstone projects -- I’m sure you have those here, too -- to do social entrepreneurship and solve a social or environmental problem as part of their learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, their parents are easier to understand this. First, it’s not really entrepreneurship. There’s no failure. There’s just paper published about the actual experience of what’s working, what’s not. The parents can accept this much easier." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we start earlier in the process, then people build a network so that actually, when they become entrepreneurs, they know exactly who to look and what CSR resources to use, and BD resource to use. It starts when people are 18 is our work in the past couple years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From next September onward, we’re going to start from 15, that is to say, senior high." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Wow, I like that a lot. I have so many thoughts to share. It’s not really a high school, but there is another school in Boston called NuVu studio. It’s immersive in the sense that all day, the students just create a product or something completely innovative and different, that is very practical." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Not theory-based at all, and they start very early as well. I know that there’s a lot of curriculum changes happening in San Francisco. I haven’t seen one that’s, \"This is the best idea. This is the best solution,\" but I could see that there’s already a lot of experimentation in open-ended learning, or project-based learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "PBL, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’ve seen the shortcomings as well, which is it’s hard to have a consistent quality of experience. I’m excited towards that kind of education, for sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why is consistency important to you?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It depends on your age. For example, Montessori, so Maria Montessori, right? It’s all about letting the child guide their experience. Then the teacher is the facilitator. I think that at that age, it’s very important to foster the sense of curiosity, mastery, and independence for the kid to feel confident and brave approaching things they’re not familiar with." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think that will have an impact on the rest of their lives. To me, we still live in today’s society. I still think we need some math foundation." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "You still need to know the basics of mathematics to function in a society. My fear with completely open-ended is, what if you somehow, it is possible that you skip any exposure to math?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we allow up to 10 percent of the total population of students to be alternatively educated. We’re by far the most open in terms of curriculum in the entire Asia. There are Montessori systems that goes all the way to high school. There is also a lot of Waldorfschule. I’m sure you know that German idea. That’s also from kindergarten..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, and Reggio..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the major thoughts of education, you can find experimental schools in Taiwan running that, because the law not only allow it, it really encourage them. It’s been like that for 10 years now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Frankly speaking, a large number of them, exactly around the age when to student has to integrate back to the society, around the age 18-ish. Some of them actually do really well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we do the new curriculum -- which would take effect next September, and I’m one of the committee member -- we took what worked in the experimental education system, and incorporated it back to the national curriculum, into basic education. Yeah, the three pillars, I think we really worked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s autonomy which is this curiosity-based learning. It’s interaction, which is critical thinking, media literacy, and talking with people who are very different from you in background. Finally, the common good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is to say, see people not as means, but as their own subjects with values that we can co-create, intersubjectivity and all that. With these as our new education goal, we don’t focus on skills that much anymore, or on competition within preexisting tracks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It brings us to a more Scandinavian education methodology or philosophy, which really sets us apart in East Asia." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think that’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Next September, it’s the first grade of primary, the first grade of senior high, the first grade of junior high is going to roll out a new curriculum, and we’ll see how that works with the rest of society. The science are really good, because then we changed the undergrad system also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the time they are 18, they can enroll in any of the schools, but they don’t have to stick with one department for four years, or six years. They can study for a couple years, get a semi-baccalaureate, go and do anything, and go back to a different school, to a different major, to do whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea of major will disappear. By the time, you can work on capstone project for six or eight years, and by the end of it, it’s just a lot of accomplishment unlocked, it’s like badge, a skill tree. After which, you can go to do a PhD, if you feel like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a really big change, but exactly as you said, if people decide to skip math altogether, even when they’re 18, that is actually one of the intentions of the experimental school and the basic education, which is why we didn’t quite incorporate that in. There is still mandatory math and language acquisition structures." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "To be honest, if you to really have those values in place, I think you will be exposed to language and math because you need language and math to solve problems and to build things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think it’s just people are scared of change. You have to bring evidence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, if people start learning arithmetic when they’re 20 years old, they can still learn it, right? It’s not rocket science." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "That’s why I think the values part is the most important part. If you believe you can learn it, then you will learn it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. If people feel paralyzed, learned helplessness, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Even today, when I share some data analysis with my co-workers, a lot of them will just say, \"I’m not good at math.\" That always bothers me, because it’s not a fixed reality. You need to first change your perspective, to then be able to improve on something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a word for it. It’s called numeracy, right? Like data literacy, but before data literacy, numeracy." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "You have to understand that it’s a language, and you can learn any language. Awesome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not even a large language. The vocabulary is very small." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Currently, I’m looking to start my own business. Starting next year, I’m still working my job, but I think taking off one day a week to start my business." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, really? Cool." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I was actually looking at Taiwan. I was going to try to disrupt education in Taiwan. That’s when I realized the education in Taiwan is very good, so that’s not a good place for me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "My focus is preschool. I learned that Taiwan has universal preschool. And the quality of the preschool is one of the best in Asia." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "So there isn’t much opportunity for me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re going to make it super affordable, so you cannot even disrupt the payment system." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, so I will try disrupting something in North America instead. It’s still a problem here. Affordability is a huge problem. In the US, it’s even worse, because once you have a child, you can only take 3 months mat leave. I don’t know how to say it in Chinese, but maternity leave?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, yes." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "For three months." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, I know. Totally not Scandinavian." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "It’s the same in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s better in Canada. Is it three months in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Here, in Canada, it’s one year. Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister, just made it 18 months." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Wow." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Optional, one and a half years." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Paternal leave as well?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Paternity leave is shorter, but I think you can trade now. It depends." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re working on that in Taiwan, as well. I think it’s really progressive for Canada to extend this." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Parental leaves are good for the economy. If you’re forced to quit your job, it becomes harder to return to the workforce, and all these other issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We rolled out, back in 2015, teleworking for that purpose, but not all job posts can be teleworked. So, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "My business idea is for the moms who have to stay at home, for different reasons, either because they make less than the daycare cost. That’s one huge reason. Daycare right now is very expensive." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "For someone who has a one-year-old child, it can be, it really depends on what school you choose, but it could be a couple thousand a month. My rent is only $1,600 a month. It’s more than rent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How would you like to disrupt this?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yes, sorry. For these moms who have a very hard decision to make, I want to give them a new choice, a third option, which is the option to start a turn-key business. Essentially, it will be a \"start a preschool\" kit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, wow." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "You can stay at home, take care of your kid, start a business by taking on some other people’s kids, for one or two years. What’s great about it is now they have more work experience on their resume. So hopefully, they can get a better job afterwards." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Or, like you said with the entrepreneurship programs, now they have the experience to run another small business." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and they have to do it anyway." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Exactly, that’s the thing, is they have to stay at home anyway, to take care of their kid. Why not get experience, make money, and then in two years you can hopefully get an even better opportunity. That’s what I’m working on right now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s an excellent idea." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, thank you. Back to product-market fit, I’m in the user research phase right now, looking for the right kind of parent who is in this kind of situation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan is probably not the best market for this. [laughs] It’s too affordable." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s definitely more targeted to North America." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Similar to what you were saying with Asian parents, my dad is very against me starting a business. [laughs] Also, when I worked at McKinsey, he was already very upset that I left McKinsey to a smaller company." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people worked mostly in capital-intensive industries, they think start a business and think experiment and fail and lose a lot of money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nowadays with this kind of social entrepreneurship, it actually doesn’t cost much to start a new idea. It’s not like building a new factory. Also, sometime it even costs you negative. There’s negative cost. [laughs] People pay you to start a new enterprise." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Right, because they need..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All through crowdfunding or in Taiwan, security token offering [laughs] and things like that. STOs, they’re huge in Taiwan. People just randomly start a security token offering, and they get the funding they need for social change. That is also actually a community that I think the civic tech community is just barely overlapping." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These people, the blockchain people, they are really good at designing incentives." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, blockchain. Very popular here, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’m really glad we had this talk. I just felt disconnected. I’ve wanted to find groups that are, like me, on the inside. To me, living a successful life is having a positive impact on society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think the more that you can find people all over the world who feel the same way, you realize you’re not alone. [laughs] You’re not crazy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. If you go to join.g0v.tw, you’ll find thousands of people." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Do you have name card?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, my gosh. I’m sorry. I don’t. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "No, it’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "I don’t have name." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’ll pass my..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Uh-huh." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Are you still heading to Ottawa later?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Ottawa." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, Ottawa? No, actually, I wasn’t going to Ottawa. I was going to see you guys. That’s why." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Oh." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I wasn’t going to Ottawa, but it’s not hard to get there, because we have a train system. You came from Ottawa, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, we just arrived last night." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Last night." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, you’re going to love Ottawa." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "You were our first meeting. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, my gosh. Welcome to Canada." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, literally." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Oh, my gosh, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Part of our delegate will stay here. Fang-Jui will stay here." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "If you can leave your email here, I can email you g0v news, or if you’d like to join g0v." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And meet Aaron. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yes, I need to meet this person." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Really? It’s all relative. Here, my Chinese is good, but not in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Some of them stay in Toronto?" }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Only Fang." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fang-Jui Chang is staying in Toronto." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Aaron, of course, is based here. The two of them will be still around." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I can take them around if they’re bored. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Thoughtful. Very kind of you." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Fang is our consultant of service design." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I love service design." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "I’m just adding details in case I forgot who you are." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s OK. [laughs] I’ll remind you." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Fang is now working with the workshop materials. She’s designing with another friend, Alex, and thinking perhaps switching the subject or topics that attendees would like to touch in the workshop." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re running a two-day workshop." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "In Toronto?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Toronto, on the g0v vTaiwan project’s methods and participatory office methods." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "The group in Toronto’s very new. Our current mayor used to run a business, so he brought a lot of change to Toronto. He started the first civic innovation group in the mayor’s office. This team is only maybe two years old." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "Is there a distinct line in between liberal parties, conservative groups?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is it partisan?" }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "We’re just learning background information." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I believe US and Canadian politics are different. In the US, you tend to vote for the individual candidate. Here in Canada, we vote for the party." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Honestly, if you put it US and Canada on a spectrum, Canadian beliefs lean a lot more left. We lean a lot more socialist. Even our Conservative party, which is more about cutting taxes and capitalism, [laughs] it’s still more on the Democratic side for the US. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the US." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "They’re a lot more extreme than we are. [laughs] We have a lot more taxation here. I think, as a Canadian, our upbringing encourages fundamentally different values. You understand that the taxation is for the greater good. It’s more European." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan is like that, but it’s Taiwan before martial law was lifted. It’s directly the opposite. We do have a intergenerational value reconciliation issue in Taiwan also. I still remember the martial law. When I was in the first grade, the martial law was still in effect. It was lifted when I was in the second grade." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The tone of education is very different. During the martial law era, which run for three decades or something, it is very authoritarian. People are taught that it’s not really for the social good, like for the good of the neighbors, but rather for the prosperity of the authoritarian nation, which is not dissimilar to what PRC is currently telling its people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After, of course, the martial is lifted and..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "It’s more democratic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...wildly democratic and directly, like the president, then we’ve been much more Democratic-leaning. Now with Dr. Tsai Ing-wen, of course, it’s a feminist [laughs] government in Taiwan also, and utterly democratic." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think it’s critical. [laughs] At the city level, it’s not really about political values as much. It’s more about improving the city. I don’t know if you guys have seen any Toronto news, but we won this bid for Smart City with the Alphabet Group’s Sidewalk Labs." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "They’re building a smart city from scratch on the east end of the city. Right now, no one lives there. It’s not used." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow, bootstrapping. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think they wanted a city that’s a good size. Sidewalk Labs is based in New York, so it’s also very close for them. Also, it’s important that government is very cooperative. They’re very much looking forward to that." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Toronto’s becoming more and more a destination for tech people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I don’t know if you know this, but Canada deals with, historically, with what we call \"brain drain\"..." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "We had the same..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "...which I think Taiwan definitely has." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We know how it feels like. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, I can see that. My whole family immigrated, so I definitely see that. In the Canadian brain drain, our top programming talent completes co-ops in San Francisco. It’s very hard to compete with [laughs] the Facebook or those kinds of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Getting easier nowadays. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I think there’s more tech opportunities in Toronto now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Our biggest success in the last five years is Shopify. It was very important that they chose to stay in Canada. Slack was a Canadians start-up as well, but they moved to San Francisco. [laughs] I think a lot of Canadians understand you have to move to San Francisco, because of the network, the benefits are there, the VCs are there." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "That being said, more and more, Toronto is being more of a hub." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "This is important for putting us in the context. Tomorrow, we’re going to have the workshop, and it’s good for us to know..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "How it’s changing." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "...what people are thinking." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "The changes are exciting. There’s definitely still a lot of tension. All cities have these kinds of tension, like public transport is still bad. Those kinds of things can always get better." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Our previous mayor had a lot of issues, [laughs] corruption and those kinds of issues. That accountability from the city, or even all levels of government, that’s still something we can all work on." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I know that they publish open data. Like you said, Taiwan has the budget publicized. But to be honest, I’m not sure how many people look at this data, [laughs] just things like that." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "It’s true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How well is it integrated with their journalistic pipeline? If the city government publish a press release, does it link back to the evidence? It’s the little things, but it’s those things that count." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "For sure. Another thing that has been a shining light for Toronto recently is the chief city planner, Jennifer Keesmaat, she recently ran for mayor. She was a leading force. We have a lot of wasted areas that are not very pedestrian-friendly. It’s a lot of places under the highways. It’s called the underpass." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Owned by the city?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s public property. She helped revamp these spaces so they could be used by the public. Now, several different underpasses display artwork. It’s not really graffiti. When you walk around Toronto, you’ll see there’s a lot of street art now that is very well done." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "There’s that, and they made it into a skating rink." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ooh." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s cold here. It’s just a very long skating rink that you." }, { "speaker": "Yun-Chen Chien", "speech": "That’s quite creative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow, that’s super creative." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "That’s something that’s good. [laughs] Another good thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Definitely, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "You’ll find similar issues that all cities face." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "I guess Toronto is changing toward a better side. Don’t you think that’s exciting?" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Also, that’s my perspective [laughs] as someone living Downtown Toronto, this age bracket, 30, and I have a job." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Someone else in another situation might not feel the same as I do...We also have increasing crime, increasing homelessness. [laughs] Definitely, bigger social issues are not being solved. People are turning a blind eye, but you know when you get desensitized because you see it all the time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read a report that says the Canadian government, the federal one doesn’t quite use the Sustainable Development Goals to index these social issues, perhaps because the previous version, the Millennium Development Goals..." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Yeah, MDGs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...was seen more as a developing world thing. Canada is providing help for sure, but surely Canada doesn’t have those problems. [laughs] I don’t know how the SDGs are being viewed now in the public." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I haven’t really heard much about that here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That’s what Aaron told me as well." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’m excited for you guys. I’m sorry I can’t attend. I won’t be able to." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "That’s all right. We’re learning from you a lot this morning." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I feel bad..." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "It’s good to know about Toronto in Canada just by chatting with you." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I’m trying to think. It’s funny, because I never intentionally study Toronto." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "I always study other places. I just live here [laughs] ..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, it’s your hometown. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "...so I don’t really think of it as a subject." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, cool." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Cool. Thank you for taking the time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, thank you for making the time." }, { "speaker": "Cindy Yang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll make a transcript. We will not publish right away; please feel free to edit for 10 days." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "As the moderator for the Q&A session, without further ado, please join me in welcoming the honorable Minister Audrey Tang." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you folks. I would like the entire conversation to be a Q&A session. Feel free to interrupt me at any time. Just raise your hand, or without raising your hand, just start speaking, [laughs] and then we’ll have a conversation on whatever topic that...whatever you like discussing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m honored to share the work that I’ve been doing for two years as the official minister, and actually for two years back as the understudy minister for the previous cyberspace minister to basically make Taiwan a partner in the Sustainable Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without further ado, I will just launch into my presentation. To remind you again, feel free to interrupt me anytime." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would just like to show you my office. This is my office in Taipei." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the social innovation lab. It’s co-created by hundreds of social innovators. This soccer field is from people with Down syndrome, which turns out their excellent visual artists and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, I’m a junior high school dropout. I think that’s on the CV. When I was 15 years old, that was 1996, I discovered this new thing called the Wide Web, and that text books that I’m reading were all out of date." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just told my teacher saying I can be either reading these things that were new 10 years ago, or I can be creating things that will be in the textbook 10 years later, because all the professors..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...they don’t know I’m 15 years, so they are all just responding my emails about their preprints." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, my teachers said, \"OK. Go ahead and we’ll figure at the ministry first.\" which is why I’m..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...such an optimist in terms of organizational transformation, because then if people really see the value that a new technology can bring at my own experience, is that they can adapt very easily." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, then, I discovered this wonderful thing called the Internet society, including IETF, ICANN, and the Internet governance system, which is a radically different political system compared to the previous political systems. For me, it’s my native political system, because there will be another six years before I get my voting right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is actually the first political system I ever encountered that runs on rough consensus, radical transparency, and accountability, of course, but also by voluntary association. The Internet, as all of you know, has no army, nor navy. At the moment it doesn’t report to any state or even in UN ITU. The Internet itself is multistakeholder and is the largest multistakeholder organization around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m bringing the same values that I learned participating in the Internet governance and the early World Wide Web culture into politics today. Today, as Taiwan’s first digital minister, we found that it’s actually working pretty well and is transforming Taiwan’s culture from one that is more or less centering to the one that’s more decentering." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I say I work with the cabinet, not for the cabinet, that is because I’m also a part of this movement called g0v. G0v, although it starts in Taiwan, is now everywhere in the world. Just last week, I was participating with Jeffrey Sachs in the g0v Italy launch ceremony. [laughs] They just launched g0v.it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A very simple explanation of g0v is that all the different websites and services in Taiwan ends in gov.tw, as is like other places in the world. For example, the legislation is ly.gov.tw, the environmental agency, env.gov.tw, or the national budget...you get the idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What g0v means is really just a domain name, g0v.tw. Whenever the civic tech community sees anything that the government does they wants to do better in a more open and collaborative way, they just tell people to change the O to a zero and you get into the shadow government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It solves the discoverability problem. You don’t have to buy Facebook or Google advertisements because we registered this domain name. With this simple hack, we can create a shadow website for each governmental websites." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We did that for more than 100 government services. For each one of it we really push the copyright. It’s under Creative Commons Zero, meaning that it’s in the public domain. A result is that, in the next procurement cycle, if this works, the government just merges back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The civic tech community in Taiwan, using this domain and hack, has been operating for more than six years now. We’re one of the largest networks of civic tech in the world. The very first work back in 2012 was a visualization of the government’s budget so that everybody can click into each of those budget items and have a real-time discussion on what people feel about the budget and how it’s used." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After I become the digital minister, of course, this is merged back into the government’s system, joined the g0v.tw. It not only powers all the participatory budgets in our municipalities. For the national budget, for all the 1,300 different ministerial projects, each one of it has its KPIs, its procurement, spendings, research, and everything reported quarterly or monthly on this platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If anyone clicks it and we comment publicly, all the public service comes forward. You don’t have to talk to a journalist, or a city councilor, or a legislator in order to have a real-time conversation with the public service. That’s the spirit of g0v." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In software parlance, we call it forking the government, forking meaning taking something that’s already there, going through the direction, learning what was there, but taking to another direction with the intention of merging back into the government system. That’s how we worked with, not for the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The interesting thing is that it creates a very different culture, because previously the civil society organizations in Taiwan were seen as they have a lot of legitimacy if there was a new democracy. I still remember the martial law. [laughs] I’m the last generation to remember the martial law." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around the time of the lifting of the martial law, around 1980s, and then to our first presidential election in 1996, there’s about a 10-year window where the social sector grew and gained a lot of legitimacy before even the administration itself gained this much legitimacy through its democratic institutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many well-respected social enterprises, the social sector and so on associations on one side. Then, of course, Taiwan is also well known internationally as somewhere that there’s a lot of very good semiconductors line. The entire vertical industry around the supply chain management of the optics, the 5G industry sits along on the other side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Traditionally, in Taiwan politics, there’s this very strong tension of two different, both very legitimate groups talking to different ministries so that they’re not scared. The invisible rope is the career public service which feels all the tension, but could not talk publicly about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to somehow both organize and arbitrate between those different interests, the social-environmental interests and economic-developmental interests in the society. Around the turn of the century, this model broke down. It no longer works. It’s the same worldwide because of a simple thing called the social media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the social media, nobody needs a minister or a councilor to organize anymore. You just need a hashtag. With the right hashtag, tens of thousands of people organize randomly. [laughs] Then we can’t really have one council for each emergent hashtag. That’s not going to work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that because the emergent issues are so new, Uber, the AI ethics conversation, the distributed ledger technology and so on, we cannot have one new agency for each of those emergent issues. It doesn’t work like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we still keep working this way, not only will the public service be under a lot of tension. We will be seen psychologically as being very far from the people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Although the distance between people and government have not changed, but people’s feelings has become so much closer to each other that, relatively speaking, the trust in democratic institutions has dwindled. Ironically, in places where the civil society is expanding, the trust has dwindled very fast. In a place where civil society is shrinking, [laughs] they have a different story to tell." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, in Taiwan we’re forced to make a different governance system, as I said, which it’s exactly point by point from the Internet collaborative government system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We asked a different set of questions. Instead of asking, \"Who is organizing? What is a fair arbitration?\" we now ask, \"Given our different positions, what are some common goals? If we can discover some common goals, then are there innovations that deliver all those goals together and this spirit of co-creation?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is why we’re horizontally building across silos all these interesting ideas as a demonstration. I will put our first public demonstration of the collaborative government schema where we occupied the parliament for 22 days back in 2014. It’s called the Sunflower Movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the time, the MPs at the time were refusing to deliberate substantially the Cross-Strait Service and Trade Agreement, because of a constitutional loophole that I will not go into. In any case, they refused to deliberate that substantially." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the MPs were on strike, people just occupy the parliament to do their work for them. That’s the legitimacy theory. Instead of demonstration like protesting, it’s a real thing because the g0v community supported people from all the different sides, the 20 NGOs that occupied all the corners around parliament, to have substantial conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People talk about environment, about labor, about economic development, agriculture and so on, but we supported the point-by-point discussion methodology. Anyone can use our app in g0v to enter their company number, or the trade they are in, and we show them exactly which part of the CSSTA affects them, and the evidence-based discussion can start from that kind of conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People, when they participate in the Sunflower movement, everyday people deliberate on one aspect, on one part, or they cross pollinate across NGOs by the end of each day we have some rough consensus, and we have some points left to discuss, and the next day we discuss these points." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of other occupies, where they just diverge into no agenda in particular, over time, this one actually converge after 22 days into five various followed points after which the head of parliament actually agreed. It was a victory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a first public demonstration with half a million people on the street that with the right tools, what Clay Shirky would call situational applications, with the right civic attack, people can actually agree on things, even if we start being very ideologically charged." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v people at a time were invited into the public service as mentors and as people who actually care about governance, and are invited to train public service into this art of migrating from a paper-based normativity to an Internet-based horizontal data and algorithm-based normativity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the first case, we’re given using the free software, and free software in Taiwan always mean freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly. As we know, freedom doesn’t come from free. All these things are put to test back in 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "2015 was the time when Uber started operating using unlicensed drivers and unprofessional licensed cars. All over the world all the red and pink areas are the one that we’re having intense debates like here also, about the private taxi companies and so on, were about a debate back in 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, Taiwan is no exemption. There are taxi drivers around the minster of transportation and so on. We thought maybe using the same civic technology but a scale-downed version." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need to get people from different aisles and different values to see the same evidence, because we believe that we are not really targeting Uber as a company, but really sharing economy as a meme. At the time, the meme is like \"algorithm dispatch cars better than laws, so we should follow algorithms, not laws.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is like a normativity challenge. After that, we see the passengers and drivers just spreading this virus around. Just like in public health, you cannot really have a negotiation with the flu, because it’s not even in the same category." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we can do is to inoculate people. To make people see all the difference sides through deliberations, so that they will not be subject to divisive campaigns in the future." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use the same focus conversation as we did in Occupy, which is by starting to work with the Wikipedia community to curate a neutral timeline, and the factual basis of data around transportation, and we take a month to ask what people feel about those same facts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is often ignored in policymaking. We leave no time for people’s feelings. The truth is people may feel differently to the same set of facts. I can feel happy, you can feel angry, and people’s feeling can change over time. It’s very difficult to change people’s ideas or ideologies, but it is possible to change people’s feelings when you stay in the feeling stage for long enough." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what we focus our conversation around, after which, of course, we have a real multistakeholder’s discussion IETF style, Internet governance style. The best ideas are the ones that resonates with the most people’s feelings. We solve the problem where the language in the government, the private sector, and the academics is different from the people on the street." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without checking feelings, those grow into very different pathways. Ideas in that scenario become ideologies that blinds people to new facts and to each other’s feelings. When we say open data in Taiwan, we don’t just mean open government data. We also mean open social sector data, we also mean open private sector data, we mean open algorithms that can work across all those data silos." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through this kind of curated effort, we use AI-powered conversation to talk with basically all the stakeholders, all the taxi drives, Uber drivers, passengers, and so on, spread through WhatsApp or whatever the same link to the pol.is system for a month." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What you see here is basically your avatar among your Facebook and Twitter friends if you log in or among famous people if you don’t. You see where they start this idea of using cars that are private to carry passengers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The beauty of this system is that it’s entirely augmented. It doesn’t add to the risk or to the labor of the public service. It’s entirely augmented, which is whenever rough consensus is reached, we conclude that feeling phase." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s self-moderating in a sense. It works very simply. Starting from one position, you see one fellow sentiment from the fellow sentiment. You can click agree or disagree. As you do, your position moves to the people clustered around your same reflection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mathematically speaking is to say a claim is clustered and dimensionally reduced to two-dimension principal component. This is like we’re proving the math. After answering a few agree or disagree, you can also show your own feelings for other people to agree or disagree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What it doesn’t have is a reply button. Without a reply button, it’s impossible to troll people. It’s impossible to post cat pictures or make ad hominem attacks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you don’t agree with sentiments, the only thing you can do is propose something more nuanced, more eclectic that you hope will resonate with more people. Very interestingly, that makes mobilization really easy. We don’t have to pay for user study groups and so on, because people naturally call on your families and your friends to ideate the feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This one is actually from an experiment we did with partners involving Bowling Green in the US, but it’s the same for all the different conversations we’ve held so far without a lot of conversation on pol.is. People agree to disagree like five things, but that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you watch mainstream media or social media in some forms, you will think that that’s everything that people talk about. People spend a disproportionate time under the perception that people are different from one another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this kind of AI part of conversation, people actually spend far more time on the consensus they miss as they discover that they have a lot more in common with people they thought they were enemies, because the social fabric encouraged this kind of consensus statements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This gives an overview effect, that you can check in on everybody’s feelings, and discover that people all care about very similar things. In this kind of situation, we bind ourselves to use the consensus as our agenda." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We only talk about things that people has consensus on, and nothing else. That environment, when we live stream this consultation, it’s impossible for the stakeholders to not show up because otherwise, they would be villains of the story." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because all the people who participate are watching the live stream, so people are held accountable by their words. When Uber said, \"We will work with all our drivers to obtain professional driver’s license,\" they cannot take that back. The same for the unions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, when people already have a common will, this is stronger than any party’s political will. People have to be bound by their ideas that respond to those feelings, which makes ratification really quick and really streamlined." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t matter which party is in charge of the government, it just gets ratified because that people find it’s self-consistent. It obviously works, and now the question is can we scale this conversation? Can we make that all municipalities and through evolution, all townships, just run this for their local developments and so on, without resorting to a national scale innovation lab?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is my main work as the official minister. Right after the Uber ratification, I was invited into the cabinet to do the Public Digital Innovation Space or PDIS." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now PDIS very interesting, because my working condition is outsourced, after I get an invitation in September 2016, I started a one-month public consultation period, where everybody got to ask me questions, including journalists and so on, but I only respond publicly, and when I respond to anything publicly, along with the question, it is sent to thousands of subscribers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a public AMA exercise, so that everybody follows on each other’s previous questions. At the end, after one month of consultation, people converge on three pillars of my working condition, which I then use to negotiate with the premiere, saying that, \"This is the people’s will. I am just channeling that collective intelligence.\" I had not a contract, but rather a compact with the cabinet, a covenant if you will." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the result of the month-long conversation. The three compacts are voluntary association, radical transparency, and location independence. Voluntary association means that I don’t give, or take, any orders from the cabinet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everything that I do is by the common will of the people who volunteer to join the PDIS office. We have officers from every ministry volunteering to join my office. They rank themselves, they score themselves, their administers still pay their salaries, and I agree with the secretary general, that I will not poach more than one person from each ministry, if somebody want to work with me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, this means that my office itself is the demonstration in multistakeholder governance. The second thing, the radical transparency comes into effect because a lot of lobbyists really want to meet the digital minister. When anyone meets me individually, I always keep the full record, a full transcript." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the case David Plouffe, speaking for Uber at the time, it’s actually on 360 record so that if we put it on a virtual reality glass, you can relive that negotiation and conversation. This is still lobbying, and I’m still meeting with journalists and so on, but it’s for the benefit of everybody. It has to be radically transparent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even for the internal meetings that I hold at, I’m a chair. I also publish everything that everybody said after 10 working days. As far as I know, I’m the only administrator in the world doing this radical transparency thing, because it’s against the rule of the freedom of information law for all the jurisdictions around the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the FOIA law says you can request any information from the government after a policy is made. Before the policy is made, it is a privacy of the public service, and you are not entitled to ask about the tentative discussions before a policy is made, which is the same all around the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan’s FOIA law, there is a kind of excuse and escape clause that says if the officials in charge deem that it is good for the public benefit, they may disclose drafting stage materials. That is not often used, because you have to get all the ministries’ and agencies’ approval, all the way to the premiere." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s my working condition, so my working condition is that everything I see is of public interest to release, no questions asked. Because of that, I cannot touch on state secrets. If they run a military drill, I just take the day off. I don’t know where the bunkers are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In exchange of that, all the meetings that I chair, I get to release everything after editing, for 10 working days. That puts a drastically different dynamic between the minister and the public service, because previously, if there is an innovation from public service, and it works out, it’s always the minister’s credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it doesn’t work out, it’s always the civil service to blame for not executing very well. It’s the same around the world. With this structure, it’s exactly the reverse. If things works out, the journalist discovers who exactly was the original public service person who proposed this innovation, and they get the credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If things don’t work out, I’m the only minister in the world doing this, I always take the blame. Because of that, it’s a safe innovation environment for the public service. If they don’t deliver on those innovation because of budget or whatever, the social sector, the private sector can take over exactly where we have left off because you have all the context of policymaking, of our decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this, we use a cybersecurity hardened...why is this not working? I’m going to have to reconnect. Yes, so we use a cybersecurity hardened working environment, called Sandstorm, which I hope that the visual will return soon." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea, very simply put, is that we use exactly the same tool that people use in private sector and social sector collaboration. That’s like Dropbox, Google Spreadsheet, and Google Docs, and Kanban, Slack, all the digital tools, except they are free software. They’re running with a cybersecurity-hardened system that is audited." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s open source, audited by the top white hat hackers for half a year, and saying that, \"OK, anything you throw on top of this sandbox system, there’s guaranteed to be no cybersecurity issues.\" People in public service can write their own apps to order lunchboxes together, whatever, and share it with a single workspace." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, anyone with a gov.tw email can use this system for free, and all the innovation that happen in one municipality or in one ministry automatically be listed on this app market for every other ministries to use." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People get into this habit of horizontalism of cross-aisle conversation, which is why we have one team of participation officers, or POs, in each ministry, to talk about emergent issues that suddenly become a topic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, in this particular case, we have a petitioner through our e-petition system that says the tax filing system is explosively hostile to use for Mac and Linux users because they was using Java applet, which is a deprecated technology. It used to be really good, 10 years ago. It has not changed for 10 years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People’s expectations have arisen, thanks to Apple. People no longer find it bearable to use that particular technology anymore. When he proposed this, 80 percent of the things on the Internet is saying, \"The minister of finance should resign or things like that,\" because really, it’s a bad experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After our participation officer, not even two days, 36 hours after the e-petition, responded by saying, \"Everybody who complains automatically get an invitation to the co-creation workshop two weeks in the future in the financial information sector.\" Suddenly that turns the atmosphere around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "80 percent of the people started offering constructive criticism. Only less than 20 percent of the people are still saying, \"The minister should resign,\" or something like that, because they really see that their complaints are being turned into co-creation proposals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Eventually, after five co-creation workshops, we co-created next year’s -- that’s this year’s -- tax exporting system. This is a very good example, and we’re redesigning our digital healthcare system, and all the other major systems, maximizing the impact using the same idea and the same portfolio." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, this is where we hope our collaboration meetings, just the space itself encourage people to think creatively. Because I’m here every Wednesday, 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, it opens every day to 11:00 PM. It has a resident chef, a kitchen. It’s a really nice and cozy place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you visit, sometimes you’ll see those self-driving tricycles roaming around from MIT Media Lab. Basically, every Wednesday you can talk to me and say \"I want to bring these new,\" I don’t know, \"Sentient beings, non-sentient beings, around to co-create with people,\" and because it’s all open hardware and all open source." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, local college people really loves it to change the light to surround the tricycle, or something like that, to convey how the AI feels about the environment, and to share the data with the people around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We think of AI and autonomous vehicles not as something that’s huge, that’s far away, that’s remote, but rather how wolves and early hominids co-domesticating to dogs and humans. We co-domesticate through a norm co-creation by a lot of this kind of weekly iterated conversations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We turn something like this, into something like this, through the idea of sandbox. I will conclude my talk, just by explaining the idea of sandbox using the terminology from g0v, of a fork of the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You will notice that all the digital service ideas that I propose are actually not breaking the law, or the rules. It’s just a better delivery, better implementation, and better service, but what if we can take the laws and regulations, and also do the same fork and merge? That brings things to a very different level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, we didn’t invent it. The UK did the fintech sandbox. Singapore adopted it, and so on, but mostly they’re in specific verticals. What about you can challenge any municipal rule? What about you can challenge any national law, other than money laundering and funding terrorism?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Other than these laws, what if you can challenge everything? That’s our one-stop shop, sandbox.org.tw. For any innovators, we can pinpoint a social, economic, development, or environmental problem, and say, \"That’s because our current regulations and law sucks and I want it to be rewritten in exactly this way.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They get a free pass to experiment for that for a year. That is the new innovation system that we install in Taiwan, starting this year. In January, we will pass a platform economy sandbox, so people can rent their private parking spaces, and not be charged the taxation of the parking lot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fintech technology, fintech Sandbox, so that people can use your mobile sim card for KYC, instead of using their photo ID, or using their telecom bills to calculate the risks of their loans, instead of relying on previous transactional history, of which there are none for young people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or people can propose that there’s unmanned vehicles, and it’s owned by the ministry of economy. In other countries, they’re owned by ministry of transportation, which will mean that the cars, ships, and drones are of different sandbox rules. For the ministry of economy, it’s all the same." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The ministry of economy says you can have cars that flies, and you can have ships that goes on the ground, and so on, as long as it solves a local municipal issue. You get one year to break the law, essentially, and have the law operating in your version, in a limited testing period." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it goes well, then, of course, you can scale out, you can scale up, for another year, and then we’ll have a multisectoral discussion on whether this actually has a positive social impact, or whether it creates negative externalities. If it’s a good idea, it would just become a new regulation after 60 days of public commentary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it requires a law change, of course, the MPs may want three years, or four years, to deliberate about it. During the deliberation, it’s essentially a monopoly for you, if you continue the business model and so on, while waiting for the parliament to reach its decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, after the parliamentary merging in the law amendment, of course, we will have competition, but this is a lot of head start. It is not a good idea -- if this is something people decides that it’s really not solving a social problem, it’s probably not a good market fit -- at least it’s open innovation, so the other innovators learn from this mistake." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We thank the investor for paying the tuitions for everybody and then, people try a different angle the next time. It builds upon each other. It’s the spirit of open innovation. How do we determine the social issues or environmental issues or local development issues? What does that even mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I said, every Wednesday, I’m in the social innovation lab...Actually, every other Tuesday or so, I tour around Taiwan to all the rural, indigenous, remote islands and the other places, to talk with their local social innovators. For example here in Hualien, the indigenous people in Taitung can also teleconference in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wherever I visit in Taiwan, the 12 ministries involving social innovation are always in the social innovation lab, after enjoying some drinks and food, [laughs] and watch the live stream of me interviewing, in an ethnographic style, the local people’s needs and the local people’s life and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because they see through my eyes and the people there also see the people in Taipei, it creates a connected room between the national government and the very local innovators. Because it’s truly multistakeholder anything that gets asked by any innovators here, usually it’s the purview of multiple ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Traditionally, if they had asked the minister of one particular ministry, they would say, \"I have to consult with the interior, the health and welfare,\" and so on, \"and the indigenous council before getting back to you,\" which may be, like, five months afterwards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, because all these people are literally sitting next to each other, it’s impossible for them to say, \"I’ll have to consult with the minister of the interior,\" that’s right next to them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They talk amongst themselves and very quickly, after two weeks -- we use two week assay iteration cycle -- they have to either say, \"We reinterpret things in your favor, so you can do your experiments without breaking the law,\" or they will say, \"I really have no idea, so you have to enter a sandbox experiment.\" That’s either this or that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very quickly, it changed the perspective of the public service, because, previously, when an innovator comes to them to ask for a reinterpretation of existing regulations, it’s either one day to reject them or one week to work the interpretation. Now, it’s either one week to rework the interpretation or one year in the sandbox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Almost always, 90 percent of this time, they choose reinterpreting the regulations. That gives the social innovators a lot more room to have a conversation. If they do do the sandbox thing, of course, we have closed fields for people to view the simulations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like in a zoo, you can see those newfangled unmanned vehicles running around in the Shalun Smart Green Energy Science City, which is right next to the high speed rail station in Tainan, so that you can just simulate all those different traffic ideas and so on, and see in real time how they react for an extended period of time before we release these animals for domestication in the wild." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of the sandbox period, we run the same AI part of the conversation. We share with everybody the data that it has gathered. We ask what you feel about this year of collaborative experimentation. We ask for the decisions, how the field test have already went and, always, we find the same shape, over and over again." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whether there’s a strong consensus of it remaining in that local vicinity or a strong consensus of saying, please move elsewhere. It’s not the right solution of things. This is a radically new collaborative approach that lowers the risk and time involved for the ministries compared to the bad old days where they work in the silos." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I tour around Taiwan, of course, I also find people taking action without even waiting for the ministries to take action. This is another of the g0v projects the environmental agency. If you change the O to a zero, you get into them, considering environmental agency. This is what people care about, the air quality, PM2.5 in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "More than 2,000 people, actually, installed these in their balconies, in their schools and so on, to get a real-time sensor of their IoT devices but not just IoT. They also upload it to the public cloud, which then uploads it to a distributed ledger to make sure that nobody can modify those numbers after the fact. After that, we see this kind of innovation is very rare in Asia." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I talk to all the UN-related bodies, many other Asian countries tell me that they won’t let this network grow to be 2,000 nodes strong. If it’s 200 nodes strong, they will try to poach the leader to the government. If they refuse, then maybe, they get disappeared because they really challenge the legitimacy of the environmental agency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the environmental agency group reports one number and your neighbors report another number, of course, you’re going to trust the one that you participated yourself, even though it’s a lower quality sensor. Because of that, it’s very rare in Taiwan because we have an expanding civic space. The government takes the approach of, \"we can’t beat them, let’s join them\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We manufacture low-cost, high-precision sensors for them, but we also see this as a map of digital gap in Taiwan, a digital divide. We set up points when the people don’t have the resource to go to, indigenous places, places in the mountains." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We also talk to the citizen scientists and they say they really want a point here to tell the air pollution from outside Taiwan or from inside Taiwan, domestically. There’s no way the citizen scientists can install an AirBox there, even if they’re very good at drones and so on. It’s impossible to stay there forever. We can because we have wind turbines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s electricity generators, power plants, over there. We can install those sensor networks as part of the complementary action. The beauty is this, it’s all open hardware. It’s all open source. It’s on GitHub. You just download, put it onto Raspberry Pi, and then, you can do it yourself, as people have done over the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you don’t change the source code, it uploads to the Taiwan network by default, so we kind of have the numbers of all the atmosphere and meteorological data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a website dedicated for this, the Civil IoT project at CI.taiwan.gov.tw, that is basically, collective intelligence, meteorological, air quality, earthquake, and disaster prevention, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have single websites like this, CI for Collective Intelligence, AI for AI Taiwan, SI for Social Innovation, Smart Taiwan for the Smart Taiwan plan, and also, Bio Taiwan. The medical industry says, \"You really should call it biomed.taiwan because bio and med are different things.\" Biomed Taiwan goes to the same website as Bio Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, what we’re doing is now is breaking across ministry and municipality and national government because this says nothing about the level of the government or the departments. It is one, single message that is collaboratively curated by everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through this, we solved not just our local social and environmental issues through economic approaches but using the SDGs as a map to unite the efforts together. Just by saying \"Taiwan can help\", we mean specifically, 17, 18, which is the availability of reliable data that people from across sectors, across jurisdictions, can trust the data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, based on the data, we encourage cross-sectoral partnerships. Then, based on that, we make open innovations that we, then, export, not as colonizers but, really, co-creators. Just download it on GitHub and then, we devise something together in a way that has free access to science and technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the cabinet two years ago, based on these ideas -- with a contract -- the administration asked me for a job [laughs] description, because they’ve never seen anything like this before. Instead of a job description, I just wrote them a poem, a prayer, which I’m going to read to you as a conclusion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To me, it means the shift from IT or ICT to digital, the shift from the sectors separately as attack or an innovation, or whatever, into the humanity as a whole. This is digital transformation for me. This is, literally, my job description. It goes like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"When we see the Internet of Things, let’s make it an Internet of Beings. When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning. When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience, and whenever we hear that a singularity is near, let’s keep in mind and always remember that a plurality is here.\" Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Now, why did I accept to moderate this session?" }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Anyway, I learned a lot but, in any event, it’s quite fascinating stuff. My first question, I’m going to start with a question. We have prepared questions, but I don’t think any of these count." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "My first question is, is it, this collaborative governance approach, does it work because Taiwan is a small, compact jurisdiction?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So far, the partners that we work with like Iceland or Madrid or Barcelona, to some degree, and Paris, which is kind of its own country, are always because in the north most to the south most in Taiwan, from Taipei to Kaohsiung, high-speed rail, it’s just an hour and a half. In this kind of place is where people have firsthand experiences." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like when I said we set up a zoo for autonomous vehicles, people can actually take less than two hours always and just get to the zoo. If we say broadband is a human right, we actually deliver. No matter where you are in Taiwan or the rural islands, if you don’t get 10 megabits per second, it’s my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this configuration, people can have firsthand experience much easier compared to other jurisdictions with larger landmasses. I do think it’s the necessary condition for innovation but it’s not a necessary condition for the scaling out. You see the AirBoxes being adopted everywhere. It’s just necessary for the initial innovation." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Given Canada’s landmass, I almost think it’s impossible. What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, we ran workshops teaching this kind of thing to public service in NYC. Then, this time, just today and tomorrow, we ran a two-day workshop with some people from the city here and from the Ontario government and from the civil society organizations, caring about very different things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We mix them up, so that in each table, we say, \"If you see people you already know, please move to another table,\" so that every table is composed of complete strangers. Our student’s attendance told us that this is the first time that they actually sat down, face-to-face, and talk about governance to its different levels and different sectors in a society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we can foster that culture here, in a municipality, I’m sure that this collaborative governance model can work." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Any questions?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "If we look at what’s happening in the United States with, let’s say, fake news becoming a popular term, even though we have a very public Internet, the reality is, a human can only make one voice but a human that programs can make many voices on the Internet and another person can’t tell the difference between real and not real." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "We have mainstream media being told by the president of the United States that it’s fake. Then, we probably have lots of fakeness happening on the Internet. Do you have an idea of how we can move towards something that actually solves that issue? It doesn’t just divide?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, I can talk for hours because I just ran a global cooperation training program with the US, just before I come here, on this issue of disinformation. I’m going to pull up the slides and take a couple of minutes, if it’s OK with you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m glad that you used the air quotes because both my parents are journalists and I consider the F word when applied to the news, fake news, an affront to journalism. It basically degrades people’s association on people who produce news, so that journalists have to find another word for their work, which is not a natural state of things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I always say misinformation when it is just controversial or not true or intentional, intentional not true but a parody, so it doesn’t actually cause harm. It has to be intentional, and then, false, and then, causing harm. All three conditions must be met before we call it disinformation. Before those three conditions are met, we just call it misinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the standard terminology of the Taiwan administration now. We no longer use the F word as of October, this year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is an administration-level resolution and the president said that in her October 10th speech. Misinformation is, of course, something that is global, that has come on. We see that misinformation affects trust on all the sectors of life, not just the public sector. Taiwan, as I said, is forced to innovate without sacrificing the freedom of speech, and assembly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just because we still remember martial law, nobody wants to go back there. Freedom of speech is seen as instrumental in nearby jurisdictions but in Taiwan, it’s a core value. Maybe three generations down, it will be seen as instrumental but now, it’s a core value. We need to tackle this problem without hampering the journalists, parody, satire." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We came up with this very small but effective idea of timely response on government turf. The idea is that all the platforms the government built, the Join platform, e-petition, budget visualization is the one. If you participate, you have to have an SMS account and an email account. You can remain pseudonymous, but you cannot create 5,000 identities out of the blue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People have some assurance that people who post there are actually human beings. We have a lot of anti-troll and anti-bot technologies deployed on those public consultation platforms. We say to the citizens, \"Nothing you said on Facebook is binding. You have to come to the government platform for it to be binding.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, it is on the distributed ledger if you really want to audit it. On the other hand, it is binding, and we give a timely response. Within one news cycle, if on the morning news, you see disinformation about the government or anything that we do, by noon, guaranteed, in four hours, you will see a clarification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People learn to term this, not as a real-time tactic game, but as a turn-based game, like bridge or chess. People learn to wait for four hours until noon or if they hear some disinformation at noon, wait for four hours until dinner. The government always come up with a proper clarification that adds our piece to the puzzle and that clarifies the matter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People learn to be patient and not to be taken by outrage. This is a first line of defense. Our second line of defense is what I talk about, it’s roughly speaking, SDG 17, which is open government. If it does escalate to disinformation, what we have found is that it’s because people are doing AB testing on end-to-end encrypted channels like WhatsApp or LINE in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That means that they send people who are most susceptible to conspiracy theories or whatever, and then, basically, test the virility of their message. They do that for weeks before the public search engine or anyone discovers about it. They choose the most viral strain and then, just propagate it on the public media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what they do as a business. Then, the way that we discovered that we can fix the problem is there is a g0v project, also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a g0v project for everything..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a g0v project, called cofacts. I don’t have automated translation here but basically, it says, \"Do you know that your dad is spreading rumors?\" If you refresh, it turns into a different, like, \"Do you know your colleagues are spreading rumors?\" It’s not gender biased in any way. What it is, it is a bot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you add it to LINE, and you’re working to put it on WhatsApp and other end-to-end encrypted channels, you can add it as a friend on the end-to-end encrypted messenger. You see a rumor or a possible rumor. All you have to do is to send, to forward it to that bot. That bot comes back to you, whether it is true or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The bot is, literally, called Is It True or Not, 真的假的 in Mandarin. Only about 50k or 60k people in Taiwan have installed this. Because I’m a veteran in spam war, in 2000, that’s exactly how we solved junk mail. We asked a small portion of people to flag to the base of possible junk mails." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We built Spamhaus and other projects to collect those flags, so people who receive other mail from the same Nigerian princess or whatever..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...can know that this has been flagged multiple times as junk for other people. It is not by one legislation. It is not by one algorithm. It’s just by people voluntarily putting their time to flag and check for junk mail. Exactly the same is the cofacts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With cofacts, you can see all the trending rumors and all the trending end-to-end encrypted channel things in the current Taiwan population, in Taiwan’s end-to-end encrypted channels. What it does, essentially, it’s not just crowd-sourced fact-checking, but it actually exposes them to the public light before it gets really viral." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While they’re still testing it, we can already see what exactly is being tested. We know exactly which groups that it is being penetrated, too. Also, it gives all the rumors a public URL." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like vaccines is made out of virus strains that lose potency, if it becomes a social object that people can discuss on social media and ridicule how ridiculous this is, then, after it mutates into a more viral strain, people are naturally inoculated against it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a fostered culture of people just asking is it true or not to any rumor that is on the Internet. There’s a reliable bot that can check this for them. In public health metaphors, [laughs] we do timely response as a first line defense. If they become disinformation, we have vaccines that basically make social objects out of viruses. It prompts people to do criminal action or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, we have other technology to do law enforcement, as well. We never confuse the three levels. If we apply everything to the law enforcement level, of course then we would curtail the freedom of speech, which is why we have very different stages and different ministries in charge of those three things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very condensed version of my talk, but I hope that did answer your question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Interesting. That’s a good question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Will you answer his follow-up?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "How do you feel about Fox News on that question?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sorry?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "It’s not about rumors on the social Internet, but somebody that propagates that misinformation, like Fox. How does this system deal with that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mainstream?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yeah, mainstream." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mainstream channels that creates divisive messages, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Take the fake news and propagates that in a broader medium." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, we have two lines of defense. First, I think we’re the first Asian jurisdiction to teach media literacy as part of basic education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of the teacher holding the authority in a certain voice, printed in a certain font, and the student have to accept a standard answer, which is a very East-Asian thing, [laughs] we rewrote the curriculum entirely so that the children are encouraged to fact-check the teacher." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The teachers are encouraged to show the various different Fox News or whatever channels when talking about not just news or journalism, but about the civics, about economy, about social scientists, and all the other studies. The teacher no longer holds authority of the final standardized answer. The teacher become a co-learner to the student." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we have found is that with this kind of co-learning relationship with their teacher for a year, the child learns to swim in the flood of misinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Bravo." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is what we really need to do. We’re now, after proving that this works, people who are first graders or first graders in junior high and senior high which we are really sure that it works, we’re extended to life-long education as well. We are putting a lot of effort in life-long education so that people who are not digital natives can also learn to swim. That’s our first line of defense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our second line, of course, is the NCCE and the Fair Trade Commission, if the broadcaster or whatever really don’t do the fact-checking. Usually, their excuse is that there’s nothing to be fact checked with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we have the Taiwan Fact Checking Center, TWFCC which is a member of the IFCN at Poynter which is a network of all the fact checkers around the world. They get fast-tracked acceptance into membership after just three months of its founding. It’s a collaborative effort by lots of very well trusted NGOs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, if they publish something that is fact-checked that’s wrong, not only is it ground for the broadcasters to not repeat that mistake. They have no excuse of not consulting the TWFCC. Actually, IFCN also affects the ranking algorithm used by public social media. That is the third line of defense." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Bravo. That’s really great." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Yes. I’m going to ask you, we get a lot of hands going up about the cards." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Really fascinating. I’m assuming that if you are relying on the wisdom of the crowds that you need to have representation in the crowds. The second question I have is, the questions themselves, how they’re formulated, how they’re researched, how they’re framed is at least as important as the answer." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yes, very much so." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Can you tell us about the nuances and how you actually match those two things representationally framing the question?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. This is very important. We want to be seen as complimenting but not reinforcing representative democracy. If we don’t compliment them well, I don’t get to be a minister. [laughs] If we do reinforce that, it will reinforce the old power model. It’s a very fine line to walk just like everybody who work in the Internet governance knows that it’s a very fine line to walk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our basic theory, very simply put, is that at a beginning of every consultation that we run we begin with a simple diagram that I’m sure that everybody here has seen before. This is the standard design thinking diagram." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Design thinking diagram is discover, define, develop and deliver. We say this entire crowdsourced collective intelligence thing is just to get the right \"How might we\" question, nothing more and nothing less." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everything after the \"How might we\" question, is the regime of the parliamentary system, of the representative democracy, of whatever the structure that’s there, because it concerns the allocation of resources, rapid prototyping." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everything before that, the divergence of views and feelings, the convergence of common values, that is the purview of the collective intelligence. Nobody can test that, because even the parliamentarians themselves have to hold public hearings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unless they want to go out of business, they can’t pretend that first time that it’s not important. What we’re saying is that we have a much more scalable way to listen and to have people listen to one another. Compared to the old way, where using radio television, you can speak to a million people, but you can’t listen very well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using this line of argument, we’re able to co-exist at the moment, peacefully with the representative democratic system by acting on re-presenting the stakeholders themselves, and not claiming to represent the stakeholders. That’s the first answer." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing, which is about the legitimacy of the agenda setting power, the agenda is set in three ways. First, it can be done by an e-petition. Anyone who collects 5,000 genuine signatures, verified by SMS and everything, gets to have a face-to-face conversation with the ministries involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s cross-ministry, then I get involved as the minister in charge of open government. 5,000 signature is the threshold, that’s the first way. The second way, of course, as I said, is that during my office hours and social innovation tours, you’ll agree to be on the record about exactly how you want to change the existing regulation or law to the benefit of everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you are willing to publish exactly how, then you are part of our open innovation system. Then you get to set the agenda of the social innovation national action plan. The third way, which was just recently introduced, is referendum. We actually don’t know how that works, because we’re going to have our first meeting for referendum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There will be 10 referendum topics at the end of this year, so I will tell you how that fares after we actually have our first referendum season." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Minister, the second part of the question is how do you ensure representation for underrepresented groups, indigenous people, seniors, etc.?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we go to them. The whole methodology rests on the idea of what we call assistive city tech. Instead of asking them to go to the website, like the Taipei City, the municipality did the early prototype of fair distribution of social housing to people who suffer from mental illness, autism, single parents, or people suffering HIV, indigenous people, homelessness." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Had it been non-assistive civic tech, it would be dominated maybe by three young indigenous people and nobody else. [laughs] Nobody else has the time to participate in an online discussion. We’re not working like that. We’re working in a rolling survey kind of way, to find the actual stakeholders through the social workers to actual people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Taipei City did a lot work around that by having real-time sign language translators. When we did participation budgeting with migrant workers, we hired four translators concurrently." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people paralyzed at home, we used real-time live streaming, and we can use sign language or whatever to feedback through an online Slido system. We maximize the inclusiveness, is what we’re saying." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we do online is merely a record of what actually happens when we put people who otherwise cannot meet eye-to-eye in a way that can relive the conversation. Virtual, augmented, and mixed reality is going to be a large part of it, once we actually get there, maybe two years in the future. Now we’re just prototyping with whatever technology we have at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Brilliant. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Anyone else?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I have two questions. The first is I found it really interesting, that diagram that you had where you had really the class string around the convergence, and then it tapers off. My experience has always been -- and I think it goes back to your question -- how you phrase the question, at what level of abstraction." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "It’s very easy if you’re skilled at building consensus, you abstract up to the level where you can build that consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Then when you move to operationalize the decision, that’s where the strands of decision making, the strands of opinion start to dissipate. I’m very interested. Ultimately, what is the decision rule once you get to that point? That’s one question." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The second question is this assumes society of culture that believes in democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And values democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "And values democracy. What insights do you have for bringing this into an authoritarian state?" }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Let me remind everybody this is Chatham House rule." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "There’s no authority nor attribution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, I’ll handle the easy one first." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very simply put, the binding power of this agenda setting exactly as you said, is to abstract enough that we find common ground. It’s the old idea of overlapping consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you have people with different ideologies, if you phrase it fine enough and abstract long enough, you always find points of consensus. That is the case." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We even use the term \"rough consensus\" intentionally. You don’t have to have fine consensus -- everybody signing an MOU or something -- rather they just have to give consent. We generally just aim for \"rough consensus\" of what people are going to do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Case in point, we’ll use a real case to illustrate. There was an e-petition, 8,000 people strong, of changing Taiwan’s time zone to GMT +9, the same as Japan. There was a counter petition, 8,000 people strong, of Taiwan remaining in GMT +8. Without going into referendums, that’s the most political you can get on the e-petition platforms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the surface, it’s impossible to reconcile. They’re both 8,000 people strong. What we have is a pro-and-con discussion under each conversation of e-petition. You cannot reply. All you can do is upvote and downvote." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you see something that you really disagree, your only recourse is to post something brilliant in the other column for other people to upvote you. People can only have a civilized discussion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we harvest the one that has the highest number of upvotes and downvotes respectively. Use it as the agenda for the real face-to-face conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "`" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that, people have a lot of wonderful, brilliant excuses. \"You will save energy.\" \"Overall you will increase tourism.\" \"You will help the labor market.\" \"It will facilitate international trade,\" whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What they did not expect is that the ministry of economy actually goes and produce evidence that says that \"If we switch to daylight saving time now or one in the future it will actually not save energy. Here is the open data to prove that.\" The ministry of labor says it will not increase tourism unless you break labor laws." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, people get educated every time a ministry responds substantially to their maybe in parody, not serious ideas. People learn to trust that Taipei administration takes people seriously. This is the first idea, that the government need to trust the people first." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that when they receive that and they do come to a face-to-face conversation, we asterisk it out so that both sides agree that what they really want to do is to make Taiwan seem as unique in the world. That is the common theme that people can agree on. The GMT thing is really just one implementation detail." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After agreeing that there will be a large upfront cost and a somewhat large recurring cost as calculated to the dollars, then people say, \"Given the same resources, maybe we can channel it for better use to make Taiwan to be seen as more unique in the world.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if people who are originally signing the +9 petition see that there’s jurisdictions with multiple currencies. There’s jurisdictions with multiple time zones if they have a large land mass. It doesn’t actually make Taiwan that unique." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You will, of course, make international news for 15 minutes, and then everybody forgets about it, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not a particularly effective solution. Even the petitioner agree with that, and then we start brainstorming how we can use open government for diplomacy, how we enhance human rights through Sustainable Development Goals, value-based diplomacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The minister of culture, of foreign affairs, of everything, committed their resource as a collective response to all the 16,000 people. The binding power is always back to the individual ministers, of course, but the premier gets a synthetic document after each consultation. Each one is on Friday." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next Monday, I bring it personally to the Premier and other ministers without portfolio, other horizontal ministers. We collectively set a boundary of the response. Then each individual vertical ministers and command resources to make that happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of it, there is some administrative decision making, that is mostly still the premier takes the main responsibility. The premier can say, \"What you guys have done is brilliant. You already committed to solve those things together. All I have to do is stamp on it and say we’re going this way.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually more often than not, the premier says, \"OK, we commit the resource on it.\" That is the final narrative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now the hard question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan used to be under authoritarian rule. I still remember martial law. If it takes us 30 years to get here, I’m sure it takes other places 30 years to get here too. Also, even after becoming an official minister, I still did a virtual lecture in the Hangzhou Academy of Art." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, they don’t call themselves civic tech community there. They call themselves social enterprise innovators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t fly there, I just appear in virtual reality. They have to wear googles to see my avatar. The beauty is if I pull down the HTC Vive, I see people in Kaohsiung sitting in the empty chairs. People in Hangzhou have also joined. For all the rules, it’s like watching a video. Because of this, it’s my first performance in Hangzhou." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Afterwards when I did the same thing in UN Geneva, in the UN Internet Governance Forum appearing through a telepresence robotics, they’re just watching a movie, even though it’s recorded two seconds ago. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a real way to work in parallel with the existing Westphalian system on diplomacy and focus on sustainable development goals. So far, when I introduce this kind of self-governing tools to people under the PRC jurisdiction, I face no obstructions because it’s a part of SDG 16. It is rule of law. It is things that all UN members have signed, themself, in 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I mean them no harm at all. I just want to bring technologies that brings accountability and more transparency to people. I think that the CCP, so far, has not obstructed any of my work." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Other questions?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "First, thank you very much. This was amazing. As you look at what you’re developing, it’s effectively a series of horizontal. Whether industry or government, it’s always set up very much vertically. How do you see the evolution of whether a corporate structure or government structure against what is effectively going across all of those pillars?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s multiple books written about this. There’s \"New Power.\" There’s \"Death of the Gods.\" There’s Manuel Castells who have studies this effort for decades. When I said we’re teaching the children how to swim, I’m not using this only metaphorically. I’m literally saying that it is a boundless space. It is not the rule like on the land where you have to scale a mountain or you have to climb vertically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The gravity works differently in water as it does in cyberspace. If we have sufficient number of digital natives who think horizontally, who never feels lonely because whatever thing they care, they can find a community somewhere in the Internet. Then they get the idea that the Internet, itself, enables this kind of horizontal sovereignty." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, everybody says distributed ledger governance now, but before distributed ledger governance, we already have a lot of those self-governing entities in the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that, at the moment, it’s coexisting but as more and more people become digital natives and if we can survive the digital transformation by bringing people who are not yet digitally capable using a tool that they are comfortable with. Like in a public service, we always use styles like this because people are used to paperwork." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we introduce digital transformation exactly in the same tool that they are used to, then to see the horizontal power is something that’s complementing it instead of decimating their vertical power. This is going to be very gradual. I call myself a conservative anarchist for this particular reason." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It takes generations. I know I won’t see the end of it in my lifetime. Every part of it is an increasing trust among people who traditionally would not trust each other had it been in a vertical siloed structure." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Thank you very much for your very insightful thoughts. I have a follow-up question related to inclusiveness, digital transformation, and digital literacy. I would imagine you actually, and the people you work with, have a large amount of information and data of who participates." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "You probably have a lot of insight into how aware the underrepresented groups are. Do you have any insights into how you bring that digital transformation accelerated, and do you think it’s applicable beyond just Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Beyond what?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Just beyond Taiwan. The strategy to be able to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "...this acceleration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. I think that the language is always the main thing. At the end of this year in Taiwan we’ll have 22 national languages. Previously, it was just Mandarin. Now, it’s all the 16 first nations. It’s Taiwanese Hakka, Taiwanese Taigi and all its variations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, [laughs] they are all going to be national languages. What we have found is that people who say I want to learn calculus in an indigenous language, if we satisfy their needs in this way, and we partner with a lot of social enterprises like the Mozilla Corporation -- is one of our main partners in this -- through their Common Voice Project, we get people from all around Taiwan, and around the world in deed, to contribute their voice data in a public domain, so that we can train the AI systems through transfer learning, we can translate one to another without too much effort." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they hear the words in their own native concepts, when we can do cultural translations in addition to linguistic translation through artificial intelligence that really honors their tradition, then they feel empowered, so that they can be like what Maori people does at the moment through the Maori constitution that it’s shaped as a treaty." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We see in New Zealand a river given legal personhood that they can have a seat in the board. They can sue for harm, because the recognition of the spiritual culture that the Maori people have." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through our transition just for indigenous people, we’re going there also in Taiwan so that we first honor our different cultures, but because those cultures connect to all the Pacific islanders, as well as other people with other cultural traditions, Japan for example, then we spread this culturally outwards, just like 4,000 years ago the sailors shipped from Taiwan all the way to New Zealand through their culture, it’s the same cultural heritage." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "First off, thank you so much for coming and for the talk. I’m with Next Candidate now, which is a startup incubator here, but I spent the last three years working for Ontario’s first Minister of Digital Services in Open Government. This is totally amazing and inspiring to hear." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I have many questions. The one I’ll ask is I’m curious about how or whether you were able to engage people at scale. What I found was we put a lot of effort into participatory stuff, participatory budgeting, big consultations on welfare reform or on big, new policies." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "We had a really hard time cracking, say, 50 and 20,000 people participating even through digital channels where we really upped our game. We just couldn’t figure out how to get it, how to scale it to take it to the next level. I’m curious about how you..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How to mobilize half a million people. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The old poet, Leonard Cohen, said, \"There is a crack in everything, that’s how the light gets in.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the government admit that there is a crack, that we really have no idea what to do, then the civil society has a chance of taking the government’s role." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is always my main idea as a channel. Through radical transparency, people can see the context of policy making. Then the civil society can contribute with social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that, first, by admitting that the government is currently powerless in certain things and, second, using the psychology of the Internet where if you post a good question on the Internet, nobody respond to you, but if you switch another account or ask a friend to post a really bad answer, all the experts are going to jump in to correct your mistake." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we’re saying we invite people who care into the kitchen to be co-chefs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So, co-creating with the people is the most effective way to turn mass mobilization into something positive." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yeah. You’ve already talked about this in a few different ways, but I’m thinking of one of the most recent referendums that’s a really big deal was Brexit in the UK." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "How do you see that functioning in a different way than it actually unfolded in the UK? As far as I understand, from the demographics, most of the older people voted no. A lot of the youth voted yes." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I could see that if this was taking place in a digital way, the numbers might have been quite a bit different. How do you see that? Have you thought about that and how they could have done it differently?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re now facing it with our own referendum, of the 10 referendums at the end of the year, 5 of which is around marriage equality. Our constitutional court already ruled that people with any sexual orientation must enjoy the same right and duties as any other people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is already done with the constitutional interpretation. The debate at the moment is on the term with the term \"marriage.\" What does it even mean? The older people believe that marriage is the social construct. The state only recognize it after the ceremony is done, which is the old civil code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People of my age or younger remember marriage as something that you just go to your local city council and register. You may or may not hold the ceremony, which just makes it a state construct." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is very different for personal experiences. It is just how marriage is defined has changed across generations. The very fact that we’re having the referendums, the fights for the definition of the term marriage highlights that need for intergenerational solidarity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a team of g0v volunteers around cofacts around marriage equalit, seeing all the rumors and sometimes just honest mistakes spreading on the end-to-end encrypted channels by one way or another. and create neutral responses that makes equal sense to both sides. There is a dedicated task force doing this as we speak on social media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the same as the time zone. How do we move at the speed of trust? Is it compromised and we dial forward half an hour into the future, nobody will be happy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "However, if we reframe the discussions so that people can see a higher common goal, like a respect of common values, that creates a new ground for conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I cannot say that whether this will be a success or not, because we’re still one month away from the actual referendum. We’ll have more information next month." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Minister, before we close, I know people want to ask more questions, but we’re already five minutes past time. This is a very simple question. From your view, what do to you see Canada’s innovation and digital agenda or how we’re progressing? How does Taiwan see it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Canada is culturally close to Taiwan with the idea of putting the social, environmental, and economic values reinforcing each other rather than taking a part of each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the same legacy of having to work on transitional justice on indigenous and intersectionality, with the same diversity-based and feminist values and our president being one eighth indigenous and not anyone’s wife or daughter but just earn the presidency by her own merits resonates strongly with what we hear from the Canadian Innovation community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We cannot say the same for, for example, Estonia who has no paper legacy record. They’re literally founded after the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a lot more in common in Canada in the sense that we have to walk slower, longer, but, at the end, more scalable path of innovation to take care of all the sectors." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Thank you. On that note, I’m going to ask everybody to give a great round of applause..." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "...and a special thank you to Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Toronto. Director General Hsu, thank you very much..." }, { "speaker": "Christine Nakamura", "speech": "Thank you. That concludes our evening tonight. Thank you very much for coming." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Before we start, I want to mention a few things. I know that a lot of you are already asking questions. I want to make sure that everyone has a chance to interact with our speaker. First of all, he has scanned his code to our code so that you can participate in the discussion through the apps." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "You can also ask questions by raising your hand. This is the password you need to enter after you have entered the application. One other thing is that all the seats in the room, they have wheels on them. We tried to make things really flexible, so crowd participation. You can turn any time now or anything, any way, however you want to organize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can move around." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "You don’t feel constrained looking at this U-shape." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Shall we? I want to first begin with a statement of acknowledgment of traditional land." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "We wish to acknowledge this land on which the University of Toronto operates. For thousands of years, it has been the traditional lands of the Huron-Wendats, the Seneca, and most recently, the Mississaugas of the Credit River. Today, this meeting place is still the home to many Indigenous people from across Turtle Island and we are grateful to have the opportunity to work on this land." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "It’s my great honor today here to welcome Minister Audrey Tang on behalf of the Asian Institute and the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policies. Our name’s getting longer." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Not by your career’s vision, which is really a long list. For those of you who really follow Minister Tang’s career, it need very little introductions." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Louder?" }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Sorry. She has been a programmer, of course. In a different universe from our universe of faculty and students here, she really well-known for her roles in revitalizing some of the computer languages as a programmer. She has also been a consultant for Apple and many other major corporations." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "In the public sector, in various past positions, she also serve in Taiwan’s National Development Council’s Open Data Committees and the K-12 Colloquium Committees, as well as the country’s first e-rule-making projects." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "She is, of course, for many of us, also known as her political activism, particularly the Sunflower Movement a few years ago in which she’s actively involved. In fact, she describe herself as a conservative anarchist." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "In many ways, it was because of that participation that she was invited to join the Taiwan government, become the first digital minister. She’s also known for the only minister without portfolio. In other words, she’s carrying many hats and is very busy, so it’s really difficult for us to get her here for our brief two-hour conversations." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "We are really grateful that you are here today. I want to also acknowledge the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office for their help in organizing, to make it possible for us to steal her, Minister Tang, for just a couple hours." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "I sort of emphasizing now how important it is to think about the convergence of things that Minister Tang is involved in, the digital world, computer programming, public sectors, as well as private consulting. As we know, for instance, today is the midterm election in the US." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Some decades ago, perhaps you still remember, it feel like a long time ago, but it’s not that long that we felt digital technology is the future. In fact, it has become the future, has become now. It’s full of opportunities and possibilities about democracy, about transparency, about hopefulness." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "What happened in the past few years? We suddenly look at it and feel very depressed with the times when we talk about fake news and the post-truth society. Many of us lose faith in digital technology, thinking what the future might be if this direction continue the way it is." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "At the same time, there’s no way to stop this trend. We are, in fact, moving to this direction. In many ways, we hoped maybe the talk today, Minister Tang’s intervention, the field she’s been working on, perhaps will provide you with some hopes to revitalize our optimism about digital technology, about the digital future." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Without further ado, I would like Minister Tang to begin her presentation. After that, we will open the floor for Q&A. Again, those would like to participate through their apps, you should use your app to do that. At the same time, you could also just raise your hand during the Q&A. We will also respond to those few questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much. Really, really an honor to be here. I see that there’s already six questions, the first one being, good morning, so good morning everyone. Very, very happy to be here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We will be on the record. The video is only taking me in this way, but the audio will be on record. If you want to ask a question, you can either use the Slido app, as we have already seen, or you can write down something and our staff will be happy to put your question on our online system. You can just raise your hand and start talking in any language that our moderator is capable of translating to English." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s our main structure. From now until noon, I’ll just be responding to your questions. First, some general introductions about my own work. This directly ties to the top question at the moment, which is, \"How do I deal with those people who want to hoard information and power for themselves?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without further ado, I will launch into this slide about social innovation and how under President Tsai’s new idea about many plural values of Taiwan...She said two years ago in her inauguration speech that before when we think of democracy, we think it as a fight, a clash between opposing values. Now in Taiwan, democracy must be reinvented as a conversation among many different values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is, I think, the values of Taiwan. The acting word here is the plural part of Taiwan. That will be my opening remark. This is why I’m very optimistic about digital and democracy, which is, I understand, perhaps rare in today’s world in people working on digital democracy, so unlike many people today." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This optimism began when I was 15 years old. That was 1996. I told my teachers and my principal -- I was first year in a junior high school -- that I’ve discovered this new thing called the World Wide Web and the future of human knowledge is being created there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I write to professors who just write back to me on their pre-prints, doing research. They don’t know I’m only 14 years old, so I’m doing research at the time. I said to my teachers, \"I can either be reading textbooks that are 10 years out of date or I can join, participate in creating knowledge that will be in the textbook 10 years afterwards.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Surprising, all my teaches agreed with it. They faked my attendance records and I get to quit high school..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and start a few startups. My optimism in the flexibility of bureaucracy is really strong from that point onward." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I discovered this fabulous idea called the Internet Society. This is the organization that still runs the Internet today. It’s been running the Internet for the past few decades now. The Internet Society, the Internet Engineering Task Force, the ICANN, and the other organizations that runs the Internet runs on the idea of radical transparency, meaning that everything we do is public for everybody to see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It runs the idea of voluntary association in the sense that anyone who want to participate in the development of the Internet, you don’t have to apply for a membership. You can just join. It runs into the idea of location independence, meaning that the Internet Society doesn’t respond or report to any sovereign state. It doesn’t even report to the UN ITU. It is by itself. Internet is sovereign." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m taking that idea of Internet governance or collaborative governance into Taiwan’s politics in the past couple of years. The idea, very simply put, is to transform Taiwan from a clash between ideologies into a plurality of voices, exactly as Internet has done to the world 40 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is through this idea called civic technology, civic meaning that it enables the society to work together better, and technology, meaning that we make it simpler for things to happen. For the past couple of years, Taiwan has been consistently ranked the top country worldwide for Internet participation, for broadband as a human right, for open data, for things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All of this was because, at the end of 2014, the premier at the time declared that open government, crowdsourcing, collective intelligence is going to be the national direction onward. It’s almost a U-turn, and we’ve been working on that direction for four years now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why was that? Because four years ago, there was a public demonstration. We occupied the Parliament for 22 days. This is in direct answer to the question about, \"What about people who hoard the information, who hoard the power?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the time in 2014, the MPs were on strike. They refused to deliberate substantially the Cross-Strait Service and Trade Agreement, or CSSTA, because of some weird constitutional loophole that I will not go into. They refused to deliberate substantially that agreement. That creates a window of legitimacy so the students just occupied the Parliament and did the work of the MPs for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a demonstration in the sense of a demo, a demo of a better way to talk about a service and trade agreement that involves half a million people on the street and many more online. It’s called the Sunflower Movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around the occupied parliament, there is more than 20 NGOs, many of them that goes back to decades of working on human right, on labor right, on environmentalism, and things like that. Each NGO deliberate the CSSTA from one different angle, and the people who go to the Occupy site just cross-pollinate the ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our work as the G-0-V or g0v community is to be a neutral facilitator that enables everyone who talks about everything to be broadcasted online, to have a live transcript online, to be translated online, to make sure that in any of the NGO booth, anybody can see, at the end of the day, what other NGOs have deliberated and how the consensus is made around that day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every day, we check the points that people have general, broad, rough consensus. Every day, we begin with a list of the unresolved issues of the previous day, read aloud by the students in the occupied parliament. This process over 22 days is very much unlike other Occupies, which diverge over time into an agenda of everything and nothing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this case, in the Sunflower Movement, the agenda just coalesced, converged over the three weeks. At the end of it, there’s five very firm commitments and general consensus of everybody who participated that then the head of the parliament took and agreed. The occupy was a success. it demonstrated to the entire country that it is possible to get consensus, even from very divisive topics from very diverse groups." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What is g0v, The civic type of people who provide those communication and digital facilitation methodologies?. G0v was started in 2012. I joined in 2013. It is a very simple idea. All the governments there, this is in Taiwan, ends in gov.tw. I’m sure it’s the same around the world, .gov.something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For any government service like the legislative, the environmental agency, the national budget, you name it, anything, the civil society participating in the g0v movement just built a shadow website that correspond to our reimagination of the government services. By changing the website address from an O to a zero, you get into the shadow government that provides the same information in a more interactive, more fun, more interesting way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the inaugural project of g0v was budget.g0v.tw that shows the national budget that used to be hundreds of pages of PDF files in a way that is interactive, fun, understandable. You can drill down to exactly the part of the budget that you care about and start a real-time conversation around that particular budget and the spending and procurement around it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the g0v projects, we relinquish our copyright. Because of that, in the next procurement cycle, municipalities and national government can take a shadow website and make it the official website without paying for license, or trademark, or patents, or anything like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In computer science language, we fork the government, fork meaning that we take something that’s already there going to one direction, take it into another direction with the hope of it actually changing to the direction that we’re taking it, we merge back to the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Today, in the government website join.gov.tw, you can see all the 1,300 ministries’ projects, all their KPI standing procurements. Anything that you make a public comment will be met with real-time response from career public service without having to go through MPs and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The civic tech people around that time had a fun time working with half a million people on the street. Most importantly, around the end of 2014, there was the midterm mayoral election. In the mayoral election, very interestingly, all the mayors who did not support the Occupy lost the election. All the mayors that did participate or support the Occupy won the election. Some of them didn’t even prepare their inauguration speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They surprisingly found themself elected mayors. From that point onward, everybody has to say open government, collective intelligence. Otherwise, they don’t get to be mayors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It creates a massive change in Taiwan’s political culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the reason why that there are so many people working in the civic tech is really we are the first generation, I’m 37 now, that can do democracy for real. I still remember martial law. The people younger than me don’t remember the martial law anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When the freedom of the press was first given, I think 1987 or something like that, that’s the same year as personal computers. For us, Internet, democracy, computers, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, they happened in the same year. They are the same thing, it’s the same generation, and so the younger generation, they see democracy and Internet as deeply intertwined." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is also why there’s so many people working in the Taiwanese free software community. When we see \"free\" in free software, we always think freedom of assembly, freedom of speech because we know freedom doesn’t come for free. Our parents’ generation, our grandparents’ generation worked very hard to give the freedom, and we need to use the freedom to keep Taiwan free." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around that same time, civic tech people were invited then to the national government and municipal governments as mentors, advisers, understudy ministers to advise the public service on the art of communicating with people and collective intelligence since it’s a national direction now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In 2015, we started working on many different cases. I’ll just share one with you. This one was called sharing economy. Around that time, Uber entered Taiwan without a professional driver license, professional rental cars, or anything, just people, amateur drivers, charging each other and so on. It is actually a global thing. They started operation all over the world. All the red ones are the ones that are disputed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is like a virus of the mind, a meme. The meme is something like this. It says that programming code dispatch cars more efficiently than regulations and laws. We just need to follow algorithm code, instead of following laws. It’s OK to break the law, because the law is too slow, and code moves faster. That was the sharing economy meme back in 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody faced a problem around this meme. In many jurisdictions, they maybe shut down their local office of operation, and so on. It doesn’t work, because the app still lives on. It spreads from passengers to driver to passengers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we’re an exception. The taxi driver’s union surrounding the Ministry of Transport, demanding negotiation. How do you negotiate with a virus of the mind? How do you negotiate with a flu? It’s not even in the same category." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our only way, we think, is to inoculate people by having people deeply listen to one another’s thoughts, feelings, around the same thing. We know for sure, because of our working the Occupy, when people heard from 20 different NGO, from 20 different sites, they form a holistic picture in their mind. That is an inoculation against divisive messages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We thought maybe we can just use the same methods. For half a million people, that proved to work. Uber, the stakeholders just in the thousands is a small case. In that case, we start with this focused conversation method that presents everybody with the facts of the timeline." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Most importantly, we allocated three weeks for people to check on each other’s feelings, like how people feel about UberX in Taiwan. Only when people resonate with each other’s feelings do we move on to ideas. Our face-to-face consultations and advanced ideas are the one that take care of the most people’s feelings. Finally, we turn that into regulations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This solves an important problem because feelings is a common language that everybody can speak and understand. If we start talking about jargons, about our academic languages, economic, macroeconomic analysis, transportation rules, and things like that, it creates a division of language where people who are specialists speak one language, and people on the street speak another language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that kind of divided conversation, we create a gap in understanding, and then in imagination. People will just fill in whatever projection they have. In that situation, ideas grow into ideologies. Once people are hit with ideology, which is a much more potent virus of the mind, people became blind to new evidences. People become blind to each other’s feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that sense, it’s very difficult to change people out of ideologies. It’s actually impossible. What we do is we change people’s feelings. That is more possible. Based on crowdsourced data from the government, private sector, and the civil society, for the first time, we deployed AI-powered conversation in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This AI-powered conversation is very simple to use. We send a link to all the drivers and passengers and so on, on their phone, using Line, and WhatsApp, and so on. They click, and they see themselves as a small blue circle, an avatar, among the Facebook and Twitter friends that they have." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This resembles the divisiveness or the clusters of people’s feeling around the Uber issue. Very simply put, it works like this. You start with a group of people. You start with the people who are your friends. If you don’t log in, you start with a lot of famous people on Twitter and Facebook." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then you see yourself here, and then you see one single statement, one single feeling from a fellow citizen that says, \"Maybe I think that liability insurance is important,\" and that’s it. You can click agree or disagree. Once you do, you move slightly, a little bit toward people to feel the same way as you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next statement appears from your fellow citizen. You just click again, agree or disagree. As you do so, you just move alongside and find your group, your cluster of people. This has two effects. The first is that you can see even people who don’t feel the same way, they’re your friends and family. Maybe you just didn’t talk about this over dinner. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that after answering a few yes or no questions, you can share your own sentiment, too, ask for people’s ideas, and call for resonance. What it doesn’t have is the reply button. We discovered if you have the reply button, people work on destroying each other’s credibility. They post cat pictures, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t focus the statement at hand. Just by taking away the reply button, just as we do on Slido here, if you see something you don’t agree, your best shot is to propose something that you think other people will resonate with, will agree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will then automatically mobilize among the networks of private sector civil society in the private sector. Always, we find the end result something like this. This is taken from a consultation in Bowling Green by our US friends, but the Uber case is exactly the same. The people agree to disagree on maybe five divisive ideas. That’s ideological split, but that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People are actually much more interested and more willing to converge on consensus statements that everybody else resonates. If you look at mainstream media or even social media, you will have the glib perception, like people are really divided because there’s lots of ideology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is simply not true. That is just that being amplified by the media that want to maximize controversy. If you actually ask people how they feel like, and press yes or no on their feelings, always they see that their neighbors feel pretty much the same as they do on many basic matters." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that case, insurance, like safety, like registration, taxation, and things like that, people broadly agreed on, just like during the Sunflower Movement, people broadly agreed. Then we invite all the stakeholders to show up, livestream the consultation, and check with them one-by-one. Like, \"This is the will of the people. Do you agree?\" They all say they agree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, they will be the villains in this story. \"Since you agree, are there some good ideas that are coherent, consistent, that can make it work?\" which is why Uber is legal in Taiwan now, but it’s all professional driver’s license, professional rental cars." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can even call taxis using the Uber app. Has the full insurance and things like that. We understand something like that has been passed in the Toronto area as well. You’re also now rerunning a consultation to look at it two years after the ratification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This shows a very simple and scalable idea of involving thousands of people in a conversation and reaching a consensus, which is why I was then invited into the cabinet around the time of this ratification as the Digital Minister, running the Public Digital Innovation Space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the cabinet, I also run a month-long consultation -- you begin to see a pattern here -- with more than 1,000 subscribers and thousands of inputs. I basically asked one question, \"What would you like me to work for the public, and what should be my working condition to negotiate with the Cabinet?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very interesting. After a month of public consultation, the professional journalists, civic tech people, people from all around the world, asked me questions, and I only answer publicly. All my answers just go to those people subscribing to the newsletter, who then brainstorm and bring in more interesting ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of it, we coalesced on three pillars that forms my compact, not contract, to work with the government, not for the government. The three pillars is, as I mentioned, radical transparency, meaning that everything that I am a chair of, even the internal meetings, I publish the full transcript online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The same holds true for lobbying and journalism interviews. It’s proven to be very useful. When a lobbyist -- in this case, David Plouffe speaking for Uber at the time -- visits me, it’s not only on the record, like directly, immediately, it’s on 360 record, so that you can put it on the virtual reality goggle and relive the negotiation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s still lobbying, but this is lobbying for the benefit of everybody so that they can see where he stands. I mean literally, [laughs] where he stands or sits on the matters. This really enables the public service to be innovative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people who study public administrations here, there’s a classic dilemma for the public service. If they work on something innovative, and that works, then the minister takes all the credit. If they works on something innovative and it fails, the public service takes the blame for not executing well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a pretty bad deal for a career public service to innovate. They don’t do much innovation without the right incentive structure. With radical transparency, it’s exactly the other way around because I publish the full context of the \"why?\" of policymaking, not just the \"what?\" of policy that is made by the administration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even very early on during the discussion ideation stage, we published the full transcript. If these things turn out to be good ideas, the public servant who proposed this idea gets full credit because everybody’s sees who was the person who proposed something innovative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it doesn’t work out, the civil society, the private sector can carry on our conversation and deliver that maybe a social enterprises or whatever, so the risk is also mitigated. If things go wrong, if a journalist doesn’t like it, if there is a controversy, I’m the only minister in the world doing this anyway. Always blame Audrey. I absorb all the blame." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that situation, people are very willing to innovate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’d just like to show you a picture of my office before I go into other Slido questions because I promised that it would just take 20 minutes. I hope it’s working." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is my office. This is my office in Taipei, the Social Innovation Lab. It is a fun place. The soccer field here, it is drawn by people with Down syndrome and supported by the Children Are Us Foundation, which is one of the oldest and most respected charities from Kaohsiung. They just turned those people with Down syndrome’s drawings into decorations all over the place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This place is co-created by hundreds of social entrepreneurs and innovators. Around that time, we also held a one-month consultation. You see a pattern here? The consensus is, first, that it needs to be decorated, of course, according to each social entrepreneur’s culture. It need to open until 11:00 PM every day because it’s important for people to mingle. It needs to have a kitchen, a café, and a resident chef." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The minister, I need to be every week, so I’m here [laughs] every week from Wednesday 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. Anyone can come and talk to me -- it’s my office hour -- provided that they’re willing to be on the record of the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can talk more about this idea of social innovation in a open, collaborative lab setting. You see all those self-driving tricycles running around and things like that? [laughs] For me, this provides a perfect sandbox playing ground for people to test new ideas, like AI and so on, in a harmless way, in a way that people can have firsthand experience without the fear, uncertainty, and doubt about digital technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s 20 minutes. Let’s go back to your questions. Wow, 15 questions already. Feel free to raise your hand anytime also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Audrey, did you mind sharing your viewpoint about cross-strait relationships, Taiwan’s international status, and how those can be improved by digital technology?\" For sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The t-shirt I’m wearing has 17 colors. These are the colors of the UN Sustainable Development Goals. The SDGs, for people who are not very familiar with it, are the set of consultation results published by the UN after the UNDP run a consultation. The Sunflower is half a million people. The UNDP consulted over one million people, so more people around the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After a consultation called A Million Voices, there was a report. They asked people all over the world, \"What is the world that you would like to see in year 2030?\" They asked people all around the world, and there’s one million different voices, and the people in the UN worked to coalesce these wishes into 169 concrete targets." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those 169 targets has two important properties. First, each one reinforces the other 168. No matter which of these you work in, it’s guaranteed to reinforce the work on everybody else, so it doesn’t cancel each other out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is it encompasses sustainable economy, environment, and society as a holistic picture instead of separating the world into developing and developed countries or into the private, public, and social sectors. It calls for a cross-sectoral approach to reach those common visions for the world in 2030." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For us in Taiwan, in my post as digital minister, when I was visiting New York during the UN GA and talking to my counterparts in other jurisdictions, or when I was in Geneva in the UN IGF -- I participated as a robot to Internet Governance Forum -- I always share my work through the SDG’s lens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We always say Taiwan can help. By \"Taiwan can help,\" we mean specifically that we solve our own social-environmental problems through economically sustainable means, like good business, to solve innovation issues around social and environmental problems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My work as digital minister is on 17.18, meaning that everybody agrees on the same reliable data, 17.17 to make sure that it works across sectors, and 17.6 in that we share the work of our results in a way that is beneficial and not colonizing for every other country." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll just use one simple example for two minutes to illustrate this idea of innovation that engage all the different sectors. In Taiwan, there is this global trend, IoT. You may have heard of it, the Internet of Things, that is to say, small devices that can sense the environment and report what is sensed to the cloud, meaning to a large cluster of machines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People in Taiwan really care about air quality, so without waiting for the government, they engaged themselves using what’s called AirBoxes, meaning really low-cost, less than US$100, devices. Everybody can just put those boxes to their balcony, to their schools, to their homes, wearing it, and so on. It senses the air quality and reports to the cloud." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v people, of course, support it with the ICT technology to visualize. It’s not just to measure the air quality of your local home. Using your home WiFi or some other technologies, you can upload to this global visualization network that lets people view, at a glance, the digital gap in Taiwan [laughs] , where the bulk of Taiwan people has been active, digitally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many people, of course, in the mountains, in indigenous areas, and things like that. That is the government’s responsibility to support them with accurate air measurements in places that are blank." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very rare in our region, in the Pacific Island or in East Asia. Many other ministers tell me they will not wait for the citizen scientists to organize themselves to be 2,000 strong. If it’s 100 people, they will get the leader to join the government. If they don’t join the government and if organized to 1,000 people, maybe they get disappeared." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why is that this really challenge the legitimacy of the central government. If you have two numbers, one measured by the government and one measured by this participatory network, of course people are going to trust this number that’s participated by the citizen, even if those two disagree, and even if this one is more precise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, it’s seen as a threat to the governmental authority for many economies and jurisdictions in our region. In Taiwan, we take a different approach. We say we can’t beat the civil society. We join the civil society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What the government does is manufacture low-cost sensors for people to use, to put new spots on the ones that are indigenous or less digitally inclined. We have broadband as human right, and we listen to those citizen scientists who say they really want to have a AirBox here in the Taiwan Strait, which is partly an answer to the question about the Taiwan Strait." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People really care about the air pollution quality here, because people can then tell whether the air quality is because of domestic causes or whether it’s because of air quality from the other side of the Taiwan Strait." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, no citizen scientist will be able to support an AirBox in that point, because there’s literally nothing there. Even if some of them fly drones, they can’t really do 24-hour drone operations in that particular place. The government can because we have wind turbines, power plants, that we’re setting up in that region." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say, \"We just installed those wind power plants.\" On the top of each of them, we set up AirBoxes that transmits the air quality back to the civil society-operated network. The most important thing here is cross-sectoral collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The many people who are environmentalists here don’t necessarily trust the government with their numbers. When we say we’re building a national system that aggregates everybody’s numbers on meteorology, on air quality, water quality, and so on, some of them say, \"You guys may be changing our numbers the day before the election. How do we know that you will not do that?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a hot topic in our mayoral election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the national high-speed computing center would never do such a thing, but it is people’s right to distrust the government, and it’s the government’s duty to find ways to trust the people. We innovated and find a few people who are very well-versed in this new technology called distributed ledger technology, or DLT, commonly known as blockchain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The distributed ledger, simply put, is a way for people to add new numbers to a common ledger. Everybody can write to a ledger book, and it appears automatically to everybody else’s books. You cannot ever erase anything on it. You can only add to it. You cannot change the numbers. Any attempt to change the numbers will be detected by everybody else holding the same distributed ledger." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a new technology that’s invented by someone that doesn’t even have a identity, [laughs] the Bitcoin creator. That is a hip technology the past few years. We use DLT, the distributed ledger, to make sure that when the numbers are uploaded to the national supercomputing center, it’s got a snapshot, it’s storing the DLT." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can see if that we want to change the numbers, everybody will get notified of it, so we’ll never change the numbers. That enables a cross-sectoral trust. Because it’s all open source, meaning we relinquish the copyrights, people around the world can just download the code, put it into open hardware like Arduino or Raspberry Pi, and then just start their own AirBoxes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they don’t change the code, the code, by default, uploads to the Taiwan network. [laughs] Of course, they can choose other networks, but that means that, by default, we now have a international network that we can contribute to climate science and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For that, we have one, single entry point, the website, collectiveintelligence.taiwan.gov.tw, that collectively measures the planet and let the climate speak through wind turbines on the Taiwan Strait and other places." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is our position, basically. We solve our local social and environmental problems through technology and innovation. It’s good business, also. Then we export that idea through open innovation to all over the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can find our national strategies on AI just by going to ai.taiwan.gov.tw, and social innovation by going to si.taiwan.gov.tw, smart cities by going to smart.taiwan.gov.tw, and biomedical industries by going to bio.taiwan.gov.tw. It’s all very short and very easy to remember." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The medical industry tells us bio and medical are two things. Authoring them under bio.taiwan, they are not so comfortable with it. If you type biomed.taiwan.gov.tw, it goes to the same website." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The domain name is free of cost. It doesn’t cost anything. Whatever you want to call it, just call it that. [laughs] I hope that answers the question because it is actually improved by digital technologies. The people who are in other jurisdictions that may face social pressure by publishing those numbers has in their ally, Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why Reporter Without Borders and other international NGOs set up their headquarters in Taiwan. They know if you put your numbers on a distributed ledger and Taiwan receive it, we will never censor your reporting, we will never censor your data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, there’s follow-up questions." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I know that there’s a lot of dependency on new digital technologies. That implies the backbone of the Internet and Taiwan being sovereign or something like that. I’m wondering what’s the cybersecurity posture of Taiwan? How does that interact with politics in the region with other powers? You have a vested interested in protecting cyber power and that sort of thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our cybersecurity strategy. Just like Estonia, we’re on the front line. Around the year 2000, I personally worked on the advocacy and translation of a project called Freenet, which is a early version of something like Pour or Shadowsocks, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the Great Firewall and the Golden Shield was still in its nascent stages, it was relatively easy to break at the time. In any case, I personally worked on these technologies. I believe that secure communication is a human right. Because of that, our Snowden moment came way before the Western world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We understand how is it like to use the Internet technologies for intranet purposes. When we say freedom, it’s not just freedom to create, assemble, and things like that, but also negative freedoms -- freedom from surveillance, freedom from coercion, freedom from all those different state-controlled powers. This is our real situation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I became the digital minister, our internal workspace is powered by this software called Sandstorm that I personally contributed. The first act I did as digital minister is to recompile the Linux kernel [laughs] to secure it, to harden it against cybersecurity attacks. Sandstorm, very simply put -- and I can open our Sandstorm instance at any time -- is a what we call productivity software suite." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has the same functionality as Slack, which is a popular app for people to communicate, as Dropbox, which is a popular app for people to share some files. To Trello, which is how people manage their work in a structured fashion. To Google Doc and Google Spreadsheet, which is a way for people to do writing and calculating collaboratively. I personally maintain the spreadsheet part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All these things are essential for the government to function and all these things are essential for people to trust each other when we share this to every other ministry. Any public servant can use this system for free, and they can also write new applications to run on it for free." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This calls for what we call a defense in depth. At any time, we can see all my colleagues, what they’re working on, waiting, doing, done. This creates a new culture of more than 20 ministries working together, each other not afraid of letting every other ministry know what they are up to. Of course, if you work in Agile development, this is common sense for the past 10 years, but for the public service, it is something really new." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This, of course, needs cybersecurity so we asked our top-notch white hat hackers...white hat meaning that they attack a system and then they report the vulnerabilities, the loopholes, and file them as CVEs, which is like medals in their profession." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We work with the top white hat hackers in Taiwan, who won second place in Defcon and things like that, consistently the best hackers in the world, for half a year. Because this system is open source, it’s not just attacking from the outside. They look at it line by line and find vulnerabilities in it. They concluded after half a year that this is the most secure sandboxed system that they can find at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s state-of-the-art, so we’re reasonably sure that anything we develop on it, even a junior public servant who knows a little bit of JavaScript, which is a language that writes Web applications, can write an app that lets people order lunch boxes together, which turn out to be one of the more popular apps..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...in our internal app market. [laughs] We also publish them on the wide Internet, too. If you run a digital service here that wants some way to order lunch boxes together, you can totally take our contributions. We have taken photos of all the restaurants around the Taiwan central administration..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...basically digitizing their menu so that around lunch time it will...It’s single sign-on. It automatically remembers my name, my favorite food [laughs] from the last time ordering from this restaurant. Then we can just get lunch boxes together. It’s very useful. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This app is written by someone who is not a certified cybersecurity author exactly because the app is running on a abstracted sandbox-contained layout. The defense in depth to this system is there so that anything you put on it will be secure by default. That is the answer to your question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure that for all the major government projects we allocate at least five percent of the total budget in procurement for cybersecurity. This is the norm. When we do any new project, we ask the white hackers to attack and report before the black hats do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It creates an economy for them. They’re paid very well. They meet with the president and digital minister every now and then so that they don’t go to the dark side, which has cookies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the answer to your follow-up question. Any question from the audience? Yes?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "You mentioned about Uber. In Taiwan, the situation is quite a bit different. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of thousands of cheap drivers. If we are not careful about digital technology development in the future, we could have a big impact on people life." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I hope that the government policies and any planning for digital technology in the future should always keep people in mind, number one priority. Otherwise, we will see huge impact. When people are angry, they will vote in that way. Very quick, we will see that on the 24th of November how will be the numbers in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "You’re talking about 2030. We’re skipping by in 1933, humankind, mankind, most terrible apocalypse created by Adolf Hitler, and Adolf Hitler was voted by free, democratic election. We should not bet on freedom of democracy too much. We have to defend freedom of democracy because it is so weak. If we cannot make people happy, we will see major change in the future." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. Although that’s not a question, I agree with your sentiments." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "How do we solve the taxi driver problem if we are going forward with stronger Uber?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Uber is already involved in Taiwan. We ratified that, just like here, two years ago. We see two branches. If the taxi are already unionized, they already have a app developed by a co-op. They actually partnered with Uber. You can now call the Crown taxi and other taxis using the Uber app. They’ve become one of the venues that the taxis get their business." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that new regulation, you can now call taxis on 7-Eleven, which is a popular -- I’m not sure what they are anymore -- all-purpose store in Taiwan so that you can call a taxi easily. The taxi fleet that comes to you doesn’t have to be painted yellow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It basically opens the door for taxi that operates in the app-based telecommunication way. The largest fleets, like Taiwan Taxi and so on, they all switched to a Uber-like model with their apps and things like that. They actually enjoy higher living quality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is true that if the taxis are not unionized, if they do not join an app-based fleet at the time, their work quality, their life quality, or their earnings and so on are less than before, but that has been a stable trend even before Uber joined." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan Taxi and other fleets that use a app for active engagement is able to retain customers over repeated calls. The non-unionized and non-app-enabled taxis, which mostly rely on the street hailing of taxis, they are dwindling down even before Uber enters the market. It is essential, I totally agree, that we need to find a way for those taxi drivers to find useful work with dignity in their line of work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is also the same actually for, for example, teachers. We are rolling out a curriculum reform next September, and it calls for teachers to be co-learners with students. They are no longer people who hand out authoritarian, standard answers. They must do critical thinking, media literacy and so on with the student." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not all teachers are all happy with that. There are teachers who are very well-versed in the standardized-testing, East Asian teaching style for decades. When we ask them to change their teaching style, it is very difficult for them to adapt." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is happening in all the different walks of life. We are working toward this way in two ways. First, we are asking them not to change their work style, but to be, essentially, mentors that look at existing workflow and find out which part of it can be automated. In a sense, they become designers or mentors for a newer generation of people who design digital automations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Some of them are willing to do this work. For those people who are not that willing to do this work and mentor the younger generation, we improve our lifelong education, so that they can rejoin not just community college, but starting next year, ordinary college also, on what we call University Social Responsibility programs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The USR programs are also about SDG. If they care about renovation or revitalization of a community, they can join the so-called demand-based transportation service, basically become tour operators and things like that for even future autonomous cars." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can accompany people who are elders, who live in places where public transport are not that good, and basically repurpose their service to one of long-term care and things like that to accompany people with handicaps, with accessibility needs, and so on, which is at the moment not very well-served by Uber or by the other large app-based taxi fleets." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is our main strategy. I’m not pretending that this will be an easy migration, but this is what every country in the world is facing with technology and AI. What we’re now doing is just to include everyone as possible, but everyone will take different time to adjust." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Were you ever threatened?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I don’t know, your life? As you said, all of these sudden changes, there are people there, they are very angry about it. Were you personally threatened?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Threatened?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Menaced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, it’s not like assassinating me would stop the digital innovations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I wasn’t personally threatened. People did focus a lot of anger on me personally, but it’s not a personal threat to remove me from the game because..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...it won’t work. [laughs] We do have people, and I will just use one simple example because it’s such an interesting example that illustrate how we deal with the idea that everybody is free to raise e-petitions. That makes everybody’s anger very apparent. Let me just find this somewhere, somehow. I think it’s this one. Last May, not to me personally, but to the Minister of Finance, there was a petition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a e-petition system where anyone who raised 5,000 e-signatures, verified by SMS and email, can ask a ministry to come forward and respond to that person. This person, 卓志遠, says that the tax filing system is explosively hostile to use." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s a accurate translation. His petition is full of negative energy. I will spare you the content. It went viral. A lot of people called for the Minister of Finance to resign because their experience using Mac, Linux, and iPad to file taxes is really explosively hostile." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you use Safari, which is the default browser on iPad and Mac, to open our tax filing system page last year, it will say, \"Please wait for a few moments for the app to be installed. The Java applet will take some time to start.\" Because Safari blocks pop-up windows like advertisements, one of our MP waited for four hours and nothing happens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Filing tax is not a happy experience for most people. If you ask things like that along the way, people are just going to explode." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "80 percent of people online who posted on our forum asked the Minister of Finance to resign. They accused the vendor who make this software of collusion, bribery, or whatever. There’s many not quite death threats, but very angry satires and parodies made of the central administration. Not to me personally, but something that..." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The person might have wanted to divert business towards his business." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe. It could be." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "\"I can file your taxes.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. We don’t know because it’s pseudonymous. We don’t know this person." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How we handle it, very simply, is that in every ministry we have a team of participation officers or POs. This is a new installment as of last year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a national regulation that says, in every ministry, in addition to the media officers that talks to the mainstream journalists and the parliamentary officer that talk to the MPs, we now have the third kind of people, the participation officer that talks to people who raise e-petitions, that talks to people who are on the street, that talks to people who are very angry maybe at the government, maybe at each other. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Ministry of Finance PO, Yang Chin-Heng at the time, is very quick to respond. Within 36 hours, he posted a public invitation to all the people who complained, saying, \"By virtue of your complaining, we cordially invite you two weeks in the future to join our co-design workshop to make a better tax filing experience. Your entry ticket is your complaint." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"If you don’t live in Taipei, feel free to dial into our YouTube live stream and answer and input your ideas over with Slido.\" It’s also not Taipei-only. After he posted this invitation, it’s changed the sentiment. More than 80 percent of people start offering useful criticism, start offering what they have to input. Less 20 percent are still saying the minister must resign." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just simple invitation changes things. Finally, we meet this person. He is actually a professional user experience designer. The one who cares suffers. That’s his profession, and his profession has been increasing its standards, led by Apple, for the past 10 years. What’s working pretty well 10 years ago, stays unchanged for 10 years, are now unacceptable by Apple users’ standards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, he contributed to all these ideas, co-creation workshops, by channeling what people have said online, on Slido, and on our e-petition platform. For people who learn design thinking, this is called user journey mapping. This is one of the very standard, basic tool you learn in your first year in design thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We divided the experience from before the tax filing, during the tax filing, after the tax filing, and into what the user actions are, what their needs are, what their problems are, and what their emotions are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The important thing here is that during the co-creation workshop we worked with the trolls and worked with the people on the Internet in a way that doesn’t count the numbers of sentiments. If 5,000 people have the same sentiment, it’s just one Post-It note. It doesn’t matter if you mobilize or not. This measures diversity, not counting of heads or showing of hands." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other thing that we promise is that, unlike other jurisdictions, we will never harmonize your comments. Basically, if the people on the Internet says that this is volatile, the words are just explosively overwhelming, we just post that. If it’s a [Chinese] , it’s just..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...so over-decorated that I feel confused, we just post that. We never harmonize people’s sentiments. We show them on the overview map and check on each other’s feelings. That’s our core principle. We even allow people’s sentiment to challenge our own assumptions, out-of-scope challenges." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like last year, when people were filing for the tax, at around the end of it, a mascot from the Ministry of Finance will jump up and down and say, \"Thank you for your contribution to the country,\" in a attempt to make people feel better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Someone from the Internet pointed out, quite brilliantly, \"When I think about filing taxes, I don’t feel better at all, so just shorten the experience. Don’t even bother one second to make me feel good. It’s not possible.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is, I think, one of the most insightful contributions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We re-oriented our design based on that and co-created the tax filing system. It used to look like that, and now it looks like this. This year, it’s 96 percent approval rating. The other 4 percent know that their input will be taken into account in the next year’s tax filing system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sorry, you had a question?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My name is Gloria Fung. I’m the president of Canada Hong Kong Link..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hi." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "...which is a Canadian community organization supporting the movement in Hong Kong as well as Taiwan. I have a question regarding your innovative technology. Before, I had this idea in the civic engagement perspective. However, there’s always a downside in technology." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My question is, in the face of the common hacking into technology, by creating a fake public opinion, or even like the red hacking into your system, or maybe by inserting a chip in some of the social media devices by foreign powers, such as CCP, in the joint venture in developing 5G technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Joint venture\"." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Exactly. What would be your strategy and tactics in preventing all those kind of shock power, manipulation, infiltration from happening in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, sorry?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I have a similar question just like what she said." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "How to fight for all these kind of situation, especially the intervention of election in November in Taiwan and how, since Taiwanese government has major international events, that means that China are charged with intervention or they hack Taiwan’s election by using..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They did that in every single election so far." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "...that fake news, and how Taiwanese government, using open data, open government, or citizen technology to protect Taiwanese election or Taiwanese democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a excellent question. You asked about both cybersecurity and disinformation. Cybersecurity, I think I’ve already answered, is an early part of a strategy, basically making sure that our white hat hackers, they are not trained academically. They’re trained in the field. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are paid very well, they get recognized, and they have very high social status. We guarantee five percent for major government projects, six percent from municipal, and seven percent for small projects that goes to cybersecurity so they have very good living and don’t go to the dark side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is [laughs] the strategy that we have. We have a new Cybersecurity Act that mandates such personnel in all the critical infrastructures and all the different government and municipal government. That’s pretty much what Estonia has done. In the front line, that is what we do. We’ve been doing that for a decade or so now, so we’re pretty much there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Disinformation, though, that’s another thing altogether. It’s not attacking the fabric of technology. It is attacking the fabric of trust so it’s a different thing, completely different thing. I gave a talk around this topic in the Taiwan US Global Cooperation Training Forum just before I fly to Canada." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m going to give you a very abridged version of my talk of how we tackle the problem. First, I use the term misinformation if it’s intentional or wrong, like evidently, objectively wrong, or causes harm, but not at the same time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, satire, parody is intentional and it’s false, but it’s not intentional to cause harm because people know it’s parody. It’s just political commentary. For journalistic speculations, maybe they sometimes cause harm, but it’s not their intention. They have partial information and the government need to clarify it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sometimes, there are actors that manufacture information that is intentional and false and intend to cause harm. When those three conditions meet, we call them disinformation, and they’re no longer misinformation. We don’t use the F-word, the \"fake\" word to describe news in Taiwan. This is a presidential-level decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In her National Day speech, she used the term disinformation, instead of fake news. This is the same for the entire administration. We don’t use the words \"fake news\" anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why is that, personally, both my parents are journalists. The term \"fake news\" itself, to me, although you can use it to describe disinformation, it carries a connotation that somehow this has something to do with the journalistic output. This is a attack, an affront on the status of journalism in the society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need journalism for a democracy to thrive, so we will not mis-associate the term news with disinformation, which is why we never use now in official communications the term \"fake news\" in Taiwan. We just say organized disinformation, criminal disinformation, but not fake news. This is just terminology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is that we observe that it is a global phenomenon that it reveals trust on everybody, not just public sector, but especially among the people with different feelings and thoughts. Around this region, according to the CIVICUS Monitor, we are the only jurisdiction that has a expanding civil society space in terms of freedom of assembly, speech, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not saying that we’re like Scandinavia, or New Zealand, or Australia, but in our region, we’re the only expanding one and everybody is shrinking. Because of this, maybe in five generations down in the future, the freedom of speech will be seen as the instrumental value as in other jurisdictions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here in Taiwan today, freedom of speech is deemed as a core value because I still remember the martial law. Many people still remember martial law and nobody want to go back to the martial law era. That forces us to find innovations that attack, that fight disinformation, specifically without harming the non-disinformation content that is freedom of speech, that is satire, that is journalistic reporting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We basically said, say you have a friend that you meet every Wednesday for dinner, or you go to movies, or you play basketball together, if you hear bad gossip about that friend, you will not spread the gossip. You would just say, \"I’ll check with them the next time we meet.\" You would just message them and wait for the response." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, if that friend only meets you every three months and only speak in legalese, of course, you are motivated to spread rumors about that friend because there is no useful fact-checking or clarification around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our government commits ourself, whenever we see disinformation that’s spreading, before it can reach a critical mass -- it’s like epidemic -- within four hours, we’re committed to provide with the evidence-based clarification. This turns the people’s mindset from a real-time strategy or tactical game to a more turn-based game like chess, or bridge, or something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When people hear something that is disinformation or rumor in the morning, they know that by noontime there will be a clarification from the government. When they hear it on the noon news, they know that by evening news, they will get a clarification. This is our first line of defense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second is that if we don’t do that or we don’t do that fast enough, of course, there are room for organized, even criminal disinformation to grow. For that, we’ll have to work with the civil society upon this to reveal their attempts in a timely fashion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very briefly, we do two things. First, we enhance availability of the reliable data, encourage effective partnerships by partnering with educators who, as a part of the new curriculum, as I already mentioned, teach media literacy, critical thinking by asking the teacher to serve not as an authority but as a way to challenge student to think independently." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is like we have some dam that blocks the flood a little bit, that cleans the water a little bit when it’s flooding, but ultimately, we need to teach children to swim. Children need to learn how to tell the set agenda, the framing, the things like that in the information they receive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the teachers are authoritarian, if we say some printed font in some voice is always standard answer, disinformation piggybacks on that. It’s like a backdoor in people’s mind. When it’s format in that way, people just spread it without even thinking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If children are taught the art of critical thinking and media literacy, then that actually gets mitigated. For people who are, of course, still susceptible to such kind of information, we find most people are on encrypted channels. LINE is the largest one. It could be WhatsApp. It could be Telegram or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of people using only LINE from Taiwan, and those people think maybe LINE is the Internet because they don’t have the time or inclination to learn Google or some other way to check for the facts. If they receive some disinformation on the LINE platform, they are very amenable to just spread it without double-checking because there’s nowhere else to double-check in their Internet-using experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very important to bring the fact-checking to the LINE end-to-end system. The LINE company said that they can’t help because it’s end-to-end encrypted. They don’t even know what is being sent in their messaging platform. They only know the stickers that you use, but that’s not very useful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We partnered, again, with the g0v community. There is a g0v website for everything. [laughs] This is g0v’s contribution. It’s called Cofacts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just to make sure that people don’t think g0v is misogynic or something, every time you refresh, it’s changed to a different relationship so it’s not particularly gender-biased. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you go to the Cofacts website, I ask you add that bot as a LINE friend. Once you add it to a line friend -- there’s about 50K, 60K users now -- any time your family sends you something that you think is perhaps a rumor, you can send forward very simply to that bot, and that bot can get back to you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The bot is literally named is it true or not, zhēn de jiă de. This is a very good first reaction to any disinformation campaign. If you just reply to every disinformation, \"zhēn de jiă de, zhēn de jiă de,\" it turns people’s mind from a fast-thinking reaction to a slower-thinking mode where people stop and think, \"Yeah, is it true or not?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This bot helps to remind people of that, and they just reply very quickly whether this is true or not. The most important contribution of this bot, aside from the media literacy education for the elderly, [laughs] is that we see all the trending disinformation campaigns." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It used to be hidden. If it’s entering encrypted, what we found is that those organized disinformation perpetrators, they pass in different channels susceptible to conspiracy theories and test the strains, like A/B testing it, to find the most viral strain after testing them for a few weeks, before then amplifying it on all the other social media channels. This is like a breeding ground for disinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before, we don’t have any visibility to this breeding ground, but using exactly the same approach as we did around 20 years ago...I’m a veteran of the spam war. 20 years ago, people thought email will be broken and that our inbox would be taken over by Nigerian princesses, or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our work around that time is the same. We have people to flag their junk emails, to contribute to the public awareness. We developed tools like SpamAssassin and things like that. The community organized around what’s called Spamhaus that reveals all the junk mail efforts to reveal the perpetrators and their patterns of operations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can see which rumors are being tested and trending here in Taiwan. As you can see, it’s now election season, so many of these are political. On the other hand, you always see, \"If you eat something and something together, it will do something to your health.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This one is still trending even though is election season because people genuinely care about the health of their family or something like that. These are still trending even though it’s midterm election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s important here is that it gives each rumor a URL, a website address, so that it can be talked out in the open, so you can share it on social media and ridicule on how ridiculous this is. You can do the fact-finding together. Everybody can join. Basically, it lets people have a complete overview of what kind of campaigns are currently operating in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around referendum, there’s many rumors now spreading around the five referendum concerning marriage equality, and we’re pretty sure it’s not the CCP. It’s actually Taiwanese people trying to make people vote one way or another in the referendum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a dedicated task force to look at rumors from both sides, and then to devise neutral responses that can convince both sides that marriage, the existing civil code, or some physiological facts and things like that, are not what the rumors are saying. This is important because then it makes people aware that there are concerted campaigns doing their work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, it feeds to the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center. Once something becomes public knowledge, that’s not in the secret encrypted channel, it becomes the purview of the Taiwan FactCheck Center. The TFCC, which is very active nowadays, they basically look at all the trending disinformation campaigns and do a real investigative reporting style report on whether this is true or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They hold themself to a really high standard by disclosing exactly how they’re investigative reporting, their sources, citations, everything, like true journalism work. Because of this, they are part of the International Fact-Checking Network, the IFCN, at Poynter Institute." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of their membership, anything that is clarified as wrong here is taken into account by popular social media algorithms such as Google and Facebook. Things that are clarified as wrong by the IFCN member, on average, I’m not just saying in Taiwan, Facebook says it reduces the exposure of these messages to one-fifth of previously, and they’re still working on that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Having this is very important because this is totally independent. It is not pro DPP or KMT or NPP. These are all very well-respected journalists doing journalistic work. Once they find that these are actually disinformation, it can massively reduce the virality of that information on social media. This are our last line of defense in collaboration with civil society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just to recap, media literacy first, then timely response, and then through Cofacts and other bots, reveal those virus before they get really viral. That is how vaccines are made, anyway. Once these are revealed, the Taiwan FactCheck Center steps into that process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The most important thing is that everything here is transparent and accountable, so everybody can join, and even government itself can be held accountable. If we make any mistake, we correct and clarify within four hours, and it’s also posted on Cofacts and other civil society partnerships." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I hope that answers at least part of your question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "It’s excited to know there are so many website to participate as Democrat of Taiwan. Who is the one support and the managing all those, for example, the TFCC?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The funding of TFCC is entirely independent. They are not taking, neither is Cofacts, government money, for the record. If they take government money, if the majority of money is from the public sector, then it creates a conflict of interest. They will not be able to hold ourselves [laughs] to account." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are many people in the civil society supporting their work. This is a special thing in Taiwan that we don’t find in many other places, at least in East Asia. As I mentioned, our civil society’s development starts even before our first presidential election. Our first presidential election is 1996, but the lifting of martial law is almost 10 years before that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s 10 years of time before the legitimacy of democratic institution is established. The NGOs -- many of them occupied the Parliament -- established their own credibility that has a higher legitimacy even compared to the administration. Some of them continue to this day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many people who are working on organizations. It could be a co-op like the Taiwan Homemakers Union or it could be a foundation, like Care For Us. It could be a company like Leezen, working on environmental justice and things like that, that has a very high legitimacy and a good business model that’s been running for 30 years, not to mention Tzu-Chi and friends. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are all independently having a good, sustainable business model. When new Taiwan Fact-Checking Center starts, it leverages these old NGOs like Media Watch and Human Right and things like that. The credibility, the human force, the volunteer base and things like that is just like that. [snaps]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After just three months, they joined the International Fact-Checking Network. Usually, it takes years to prove the credentials, but because the people who bootstrapped this all have decades of public credibility, it gets recognized internationally very quickly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is unique in Taiwan that people in the social sector has organized even before the democratic institution, and even now has higher legitimacy in many areas of sustainable development compared to the public sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I thought there was...So sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m curious. You mentioned Estonia has very similar model to Taiwan, where they have gone completely digital. Do you see, personally or through the government, any calls on studying your digital governance model and any appetite for applying something in other parts, Eastern, Western societies, Northern, Southern?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I’m just so in awe of everything that I’ve heard and learned, but just the very governance model, is there appetite? Are people calling you for stories?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. As we speak now, a delegate is in South Korea for the Open Government Partnership Summit in the Asia-Pacific region. People from civil society and our National Development Council, our Gender Equality Department, and so on, are all in South Korea sharing our digital governance approaches as we speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As we speak, there’s a delegation from my office, three people, designers, coders, in Madrid, working with Madrid City, applying this kind of collective intelligence, but on public construction projects. We can all put down VR or mixed reality and see a new airport from the feeling of the future airports." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is one of the things that we cannot actually do now because not all people can view a movie or a PowerPoint and visualize a building in their head. It requires an architect’s training. If we can put people into hypothetical architect’s visions, like live in it and do deliberation within it, it’s called Holopolis. The Spain people really likes it and so we’re working with them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The e-petition system, we took the commentary system from Better Reykjavik in Iceland. At a moment, one of my colleagues is working with the Icelandic pirates, Pirate Party, to work on this information, and port this model that we just saw to WhatsApp and other venues that makes sure that Icelandic elections are not tampered with by disinformation and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We do participate actively in both the Digital Nations working group and the Open Government Partnership events." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "With all due respect, Minister, looking forward to digital technology and the future AI, do you keep an eye constantly on Gini factor because rich people are getting much richer and poor people are getting poorer?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, definitely. This is a very good time to introduce our AI network of development. This is a AI project, but it doesn’t take anyone’s job away. This is basically a playground, a sandbox for people to feel how, I don’t know, wolves and early hominid co-domesticated into dogs and human beings by learning to follow each other’s eyes, nose, gestures, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that you need to solve a real social problem and the norms need to be set by everybody, not just people in Silicon Valley or MIT. Then, these things must be open in the sense that local people must be able to tinker it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is actually the idea of personal computing. Back in 1980, when personal computer is known for, late ’80s, the previous thought train was of a mainframe computer, a huge computer that is maybe one-tenth as powerful as this iPad, and people connect to it as terminals. You don’t have any control of the logic that’s running on the mainframe." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The promise of personal computer and, later on, of mobile computing is that you can install the apps that fits your lifestyle and they co-evolve with you. It must be the same with AI. People need to be able to interrogate, to communicate, to change this flashing red light when it’s feeling uneasy to maybe a emoji or a dog face or whatever as they feel like. This is what personal computing means." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we make sure, first problem is human rights and AI integrated to all levels of education, so that all children can feel that AI is something that they have agency over. It’s not something they subscribe to and has agency over them. This is the utmost importance in Taiwan’s AI development philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When anyone applies for a sandbox experiment, which is a application to break laws and regulations for a year to prove that it’s good for the society...This is a new innovation system we introduced just this year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anything that you have in AI for banking, AI for transportation, AI for, I don’t know, parking lot allocation, you name it, you can go to sandbox.org.tw and say, \"There’s a social problem or environmental problem here or economic unique to regional revitalization. I think that this regulation or law is blocking the society from progressing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"I would like a year to prove to the people who are on the ground, the vulnerable people, the people who are the most impacted with technology, that this is a good idea.\" If after a year, people think is a good idea, it becomes law. It becomes regulation, but only if people who are impacted knows and agrees that it’s a good idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s about platform economy, like sharing your parking lot space, it goes to the National Development Council. If it’s AI banking, it goes to FinTech. If it’s un-crewed vehicles, which will pass maybe early in January next year, it goes to the Ministry of Economy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is, again very different. In other countries, it would go to the Ministry of Transportation, which would have very different rules for ships and boats, that kind of transportation, and drones that flies, and cars. For the Ministry of Economy, they are all the same. You can have lots of hybrid that flies while it drives and are amphibious, like goes to the land after sailing for a while." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It all needs to correspond to a local need. In the remote islands, they don’t have sufficient boat to transport them. In the rural or indigenous areas, the MRT doesn’t quite go there, so they need a bus that serves as the last mile of MRT or things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can all experiment for a year, including the business model. If it’s a good idea, it becomes law or regulation. If it’s not a good idea, the entire society learns something. The data is shared for the next innovator to try a different angle, so it build upon each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, if the MPs need time to deliberate on the law level -- we’re a continental law system so we need a real law change -- if it has to go back to the Parliament, you can continue to operate, to serve the people’s societal needs for up to four years, essentially in monopoly. [laughs] Afterwards, of course, a competitor will enter the market." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We basically tour around Taiwan. I personally, every Tuesday, tour around Taiwan. Wednesday, I’m in Taipei, in the Social Innovation Lab. Every other Tuesday, I’m...This is Hualien, and people, who are even more remote, like Taitung, can teleconference in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anytime I go there and talk to the local people who are the most impacted by technologies, they would tell me the real social needs and environmental needs. At the same time, 12 ministries related to social innovation gather in the Social Innovation Lab in Taipei and sees through my eyes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m like a investigative reporter. They see what I see in the place that I stay for a couple of days or I meet with local indigenous assembly or things like that. All the ministries related to social innovations are there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, the people here would say, \"We need our local co-op to be recognized and some procurement rules.\" They would say, \"We have a local association that we’d really like to be a social enterprise by using impact investment programs.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, in the previous bad old days, they would talk to one ministry and that ministry will say, \"Oh, we’re just the Ministry of Interior where we register it. We’ll have to talk with the economic minister, who will have to talk with the minister of health and welfare.\" It would take five months before anything even goes back to that innovator." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, because all the ministers are there, it’s impossible for them to go into that bureaucratic flow. They have to, in a very relaxed mood, with a resident chef, remember..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...brainstorm to solve a local need within two weeks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every local issue that’s brought up need to be resolved on the record after two weeks, after each meeting. Then, I tour to another place, carry on the conversation. If they cannot be reached within two weeks, sometimes it’s resolved by another regional innovation meeting to resolve issues on the previous region. If that doesn’t happen in two weeks, we list it as a open challenge for people to work on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you want to apply for a sandbox experiment or something, you can cite that as a rationale. Just by surfacing this problem and having on the record radical transparency, record of the ministers saying, \"We really don’t know how to solve this problem,\" you get a automatic pass into the sandbox system, where you can take the try as a social entrepreneur to solve the problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We will adjust our regulation and interpretations for you. This is co-creation not just for the people, but with the people. That is the philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The culture that you have and that your government has introduced is really inspiring. The question I have is let’s just say, in a hypothetical scenario, there’s a change in government. How do you make sure that this culture of collective intelligence and open government sticks beyond, say, you being in office?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m in this for the long haul, [laughs] for the long run. I joined as a understudy minister, as a advisor to public service, around the end of 2014. The people who invites me, Minister Jaclyn Tsai, Deputy Premier Simon Chang, Jaclyn was from IBM Asia, director of law IBM Asia, Simon Chang was director of engineering in Google." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was at the time, of course, independent contractor and advisor at Apple. We share very similar ethos. We share this idea of rapid innovation, listening to users, and working with people as people. We are all non-partisan. I don’t have any party affiliation. I don’t even care about political parties." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People know that I’m here for the public service, who are neutral and who are here also for the long run. When the transition happened, after the election, Simon Chang transitioned to Dr. Lin Chuan. The two premiers, both independent, did something that’s never happened in Taiwanese political history." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Simon Chang asked all the ministries to publish a checkpoint document, including all the government, where things are going, including data and evidence and everything to the public Internet, and for the new premier and the new cabinet to download from the public Internet to complete the transition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He even asked for the transition to be live-streamed, but people said, \"There’s too many meetings. Maybe we just publish a summary,\" which they did. In any case, that benefits me because I joined a new cabinet five months after they formed. I joined October. The new cabinet was in May." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was able to hit the road running, so to speak, because the transition was in public, and I can study the transition documents, as can any other person on Earth. This basically says anything that is institutionalized as open government in Taiwan, there’s no going back because it is the new norm. People start to feel that they’re entitled [laughs] to get this from the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every cabinet must only move more forward because when we talk about, for example, the Join platform, the e-participatory regulation, and things like that, the KMT people love to say that this was passed under President Ma Ying-jeou [laughs] because that’s what they did around 2015." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "President Tsai Ing-wen, of course, has open government as her main campaign. Also, the Participation Officers’, which was signed into effect by Premier Lai Ching-te, was because when he ran for mayor for the Tainan City for the second term, open government was his platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For a while, he has a very interesting relationship with city council. He refused to go to the city council because the head councilor was involved in some, I don’t know, criminal investigation or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead, he bypassed the city council and went precinct to precinct, township to township, and talked directly to people and do the regional innovation thing with the research and development office, Dr. Chen Mei-ling, taking into account the requirements of all the different precinct, being a direct democratic mayor, instead of going through this City Council and answer to a representative democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, that got resolved and later on he entered the city council, but then he had firsthand experience. After he became the premier, not only he signed this PO regulation, but he personally went on a tour to all the different cities and counties in Taiwan, exactly the same as he did in Tainan City, helped by the head of National Development Council, the same Dr. Chen Mei-ling in Taiwan, Tainan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is great because he went on a economic innovation tour, and I go on social innovation tour, but both with the idea of regional revitalization, which is our new national direction starting next year. What I’m saying is that open government on a national and municipal level, it is a culture that cannot be turned back now, but in the township, precinct level, that is just now being devolved into those government and jurisdictions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Tainan City, for example, just adopted the Participation Officers Network and many other cities are committed to do that after the midterm election. So, yeah, I’m very optimistic. I’m non-partisan. Whichever party runs the cabinet, I’m working with the cabinet, not for the cabinet anyway. I’m here for the long run." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Shall we go back to Slido for another..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...10 minutes. I’ll answer quickly without reading out loud because the anonymous questions are often the most interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Examination Yuan is an interesting partnership in our open government work. We have a five-branch government. The Examination Yuan and the Corrective Yuan are unique inventions by Dr. Sun Yat-sen. We are in partnership with those two very unique branches. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Corrective Yuan, which has no counterpart -- I don’t even try to translate that -- is the one that audits the administration and makes sure that we keep ourselves honest. We enroll them into the open government platform by providing them this free platform that they can ask people for fear, uncertainty, and doubt, on each every innovation by the public sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before, they were seen as people who blocked the progress. Now, they’re seen as people who further the process by looking at each new thing and ask the people, \"What are your fears, uncertainties, and doubts? We will professionally collect all your doubts into nine points of new auditing questions and ask the minister in charge of social entrepreneurship.\" That’s me. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will answer with the nine point-by-point ways, which they then establish the new auditing rules so the innovation policy sector can continue, and they can answer to the Corrective Yuan bosses, saying, \"We have answered all the people’s doubts. So, obviously, we have done our job.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of being the enemy of both the citizens and administration, they’re now friends of both citizens and administration just by shifting to open government. We’re very envious of them. When we pose a new question for people to contribute ideas, a public consultation, if it’s obscure, like domestic, local, urban renovation, maybe 40 people came and we considered that a success." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the same small-scale thing, when the Corrective Yuan ask, \"Who has fear, uncertainty, and doubt?\" as you can see, hundreds of people came. Obviously, it’s easier to put out your doubts, rather than your suggestions. That’s the Corrective Yuan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Examination Yuan, similarly. We have petition systems that works for the public service also. For example, there is a popular e-petition, obviously by public servants, that petitions for the new leave of absence rule. Previously, when we take a leave, it has to be at least half a day long." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nowadays, because people really want to care for the elderly, or actually there’s a teleworking initiative going on also, they petitioned collectively. That Examination Yuan was very active in actually contributing to the open government process. They just ratified this e-petition by actively participating in the process that accurately reflects the collective will of the public servants." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can be seen as the enlightened one. Then, the administration, because it’s still waiting for a few days to publish, the pressure is from Examination to the administration to ratify this new rule that is being petitioned by 5,000 public servants." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, Examination Yuan is now seen as a friend to the public service, rather than someone who holds back the public service. All this is because, as I said, the credit is shared. The credit is spread in a way that it’s due, and the risk is absorbed by participation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nobody needs a rationale or a signature by the upper echelon of the public service, because they can cite the political will and the consensus and say, \"This is what people really want.\" The Examination Yuan and the Corrective Yuan are totally on board with this philosophy as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do you worry that I would become a tool of neoliberal capitalism? I am a vessel of conservative anarchism, which is very different from neoliberal capitalism. Anarchism means very simply that I take no orders and I give no orders. I have not given a single order as the digital minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody in my office volunteered to work with me. I had a agreement with the Secretary General that I can poach at most one person from each ministry who volunteer to work with me. Literally, I can have 34 staff because there’s exactly 34 ministry. At the moment I have 22. For example, this is our Foreign Affair Ministry [laughs] delegate to our office." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This creates a culture of voluntary association, of people just brainstorming any idea, anything that they want to do, printing a comic book or whatever, [laughs] print a t-shirt. People just go ahead and do it. Because every ministry is a different social or economic value, if something that is a consensus of these people, it is of no harm to any ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any innovation that we do can be done in a way without resorting to vertical power. We’re just entirely horizontal power, new power, as we call it. There’s a book about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anarchism is, by default, a way for people to associate that achieve what we call Pareto improvement, that is to say improvement that leaves nobody behind, and through a conservative lens, meaning that I don’t go to the Department of Defense and say, \"Tomorrow you’re going to adopt radical transparency.\" I’m not doing that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People only bring to me cases that they feel are wicked problems, meaning that they’re structural problems that has hit the Nash equilibrium, meaning that nobody can act alone to solve their problem. Everybody need to coordinate, form a consensus, and move to solve the problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the problem is of this shape, it’s brought to my office for deliberation and open government. If they think that they can solve it just fine with their old vertical power model, they don’t even bother me. I don’t even know about these things. This is a way that compliments but doesn’t reinforce neoliberal capitalism or any form of vertical power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "You talk a lot about achieving consensus. Consensus, by definition, is a consensus of the majority." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "No?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "How do you..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A vote is a vote by majority." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A consensus is something that’s acceptable, that everybody can live with." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Can you talk more about how do you address, let’s say, a small vocal minority or if there’s some issue that’s a thorn in the side of the majority, that it needs..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, we don’t work on majority rule. There’s a document called \"The Tao of IETF,\" of Internet Engineering Task Force. It says, \"We reject kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code,\" meaning that anyone who has even anything, as you said, in a minority so to speak...We don’t say that. We say plurality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t even look at those numbers. Those numbers don’t even mean anything. As you can see, these numbers of people have no correspondence to the area of diversity of their opinions. If you mobilize 5,000 people and vote exactly the same way, you will add number here, but area will not increase because this is diversity of opinion. This is not by majority rule." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say if we are to enter to the agenda, you need to convince everybody in every group. It’s called a supermajority. Especially, you need to convince people who are diametrically opposed to you. Only then it becomes a binding agenda for the rough consensus process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We explicitly said that any sentiment that only has local consensus we read that aloud, but it’s not entering the agenda. We respect people’s differences, but only the commonalities enter the agenda." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many technical ways of achieving that. There’s the idea of overlapping consensus. There’s the idea if you abstract to the common value high enough, people can always reach a common understanding. There’s the idea of sustainability. I can’t go into details, but that is our philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re almost at time, like 10 minutes. Let me go back here." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Maybe the last one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We did the disinformation one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Some major social consensus challenges facing Taiwan. I would say that there are many people in Taiwan at the moment still believe in the authoritarian power structures. There are people who still think that a efficient authoritarian rule is sometimes better than a somewhat more deliberate one-month-long decision-making process that involves a rough consensus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To me, one month or two months is a good time period to have a iteration, but there are still some people who believe that you really need to fast-track things by a majority rule or by just some political will, to not go through a proper conversation for two months." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For me, this is a culture of the people who are educated before the martial law gets lifted, and the people who gets educated after, especially the educational reform of the ’90s. I think the time is on our side, and also [laughs] that we do all we can through lifelong education efforts to make sure that people respect the plurality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This, to me, is the difference between IT and digital. IT, which Taiwan is known for even before lifting of the martial law, is more like hardware, precision, low-cost, supply chain management, and so on, which Taiwan is still very strong, but we cannot use that culture for the consensus-forming, democratic culture because we’re a digital culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m going to read you a poem at the conclusion, which is my job description when they asked me for a job description two years ago, that highlights the difference between the IT way of thinking about politics and the digital way of thinking about human beings. It goes like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see the Internet of Things, let’s make it an Internet of Beings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And whenever we hear that a singularity is near, let us always keep in mind, always remember that the plurality is here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Thank you so much Minister Tang. I was so impressed, inspired, and amazed by the presentation. I learned so much from it. I was also very impressed by the fact that the digital infrastructure in Taiwan is so tied together with the civil society in the spirit of transparency and political participation." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "I’m very, very impressed. Perhaps there is, in fact, something really could be called the Taiwan Wave and the Taiwan Way. I can see your t-shirt say, \"Taiwan can help.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "Please help us." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "I can see many people here would be helped, many politicians in our political systems, many people in the room, whether you are social innovators, entrepreneurs, or academics. I already want to steal many ideas from this. I think Asian Institute probably could use some of these ideas as well." }, { "speaker": "Tong Lam", "speech": "I’m so glad that I steal you from the workshop that we were supposed to participate. Thank you again. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you for the great questions. Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s make it more conversational. Just ask me random questions, and I’ll just start." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "OK, cool. Can you tell us a bit about the digital government movement in Taiwan, and some of the ideas behind that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. I am Audrey Tang, Taiwan’s Digital Minister in charge of social innovation and open government. In Taiwan, the civic tech people on one side and social entrepreneurs on the other side are mingling together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of our commitment to open government, we see older generation of people working with disadvantaged groups, indigenous people, and people like that being digitally enabled by the civic tech people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Civic tech people really learn how to work sustainably with the environment, with the indigenous, with the social fabric from those people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s mentoring both ways around, and my role as the Digital Minister is to make sure that it happens in a fair way, without any exploitation or any power asymmetry." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "What’s the change that you’re hoping to see?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The change is that from the enterprise side, people learn to become better corporate citizens, become B corps, become part of the benefit corporation movement. We just changed our company act to enable that kind of structure, where it can have a charity association controlling a subsidiary corporation for the social good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, we want the existing not-for-profits find ways to capitalize on the massive amount of goodwill that people have in a way that sustains their mission, without them having to do all the work alone. They can learn to trust strangers, to crowdsource, to trust the social innovation ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Why does this work really matter? If you were explaining it to someone you just met in the street, what’s important to know?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social innovation is important because as a government, we can really only change our direction once every year, because of budget cycles." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s just so many emergent issues nowadays, especially around digital issues, so that the people on the field are actually the best people to bring about social innovation solutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, the national regulations and city level regulations were often blocking people from realizing the true value of their common potential." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, we’re now adopting a sandbox model, where if you see any regulations that you don’t like that’s blocking the sustainable development goals, you can ask for experiment for one year to relax that rule or regulation, and then see if it works better for everybody involved." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "If someone were very stressed out and worried, what are the kind of problems that you hope this would solve, or why is it the most important thing for us to focus on?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The most important thing is to lower everybody’s fear, uncertainty, and doubt about emerging digital trends. In Taiwan, we make sure that everybody has broadband access. Broadband is a human right. We make sure that AI and education is embedded in the K-12 level." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure media literacy, critical thinking is taught within the basic education. We make sure the universities also share their social responsibilities by working on capstone projects that attain one or more sustainable development goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taken together, it means that everybody knows digital in a way that is like people know their human rights, their access to justice, and things like that. They don’t become afraid of new technologies, like AI and distributed ledgers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like personal computing, it feels personal, and it’s something personal that they can also tweak and change." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "What might you say to a civil servant in another country, like Canada, about their work, and how it fits into your experiment?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, Taiwan can help. We’re a part of this open innovation system, on the public Internet, where it’s a lot of existing government and civic technologies that’s all open source for you to use. There’s also a strong network of public service people who use the same tools to lower the risk, to absorb the work, redundant work, and to share the credit all around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you work in public service, we, the digital people, are the public servants of the public service. We’re here to help you to get your work done, your message out. In a way that makes everybody share the credit, instead of having only one or two ministers absorb all the credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The way that we work in Taiwan, through this open innovation system, is to make sure that everybody has equal access to the digital world, without putting it on one ministry or the other ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has to take the entire government’s civil service to realize the potential of the digital, and how it can automate all the chores, so the public service can focus on people, understand people’s feelings, and listening to people." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "You’ve heard a little bit about the unit, the digital enablement unit of the government of Canada. Can you talk a little bit about how, why the work of the digital enablement unit might be important?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Capacity building, as I said, is fundamentally about relieving everybody of fear, uncertainty, and doubt around digital technologies. If the digital technology is something that you procure, you buy or something, you feel a sense of detachment from the technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s something that’s in the flow of work, that everybody gets into the habit of working out loud in an internal chat room, and things like that, it becomes so much more natural when you collaborate across silos on shared documents, shared spreadsheets, and things like that that really massively simplifies the workflow of the public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have to use fax or other outdated technologies. They just go up the chain and down the chain again. You can be naturally collaborative, while still have a full, accountable record of everything people does in the flow of work." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "What do you think are some things that we might be able to do together in the next six months? What are the smaller things that you hope for in the short term?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In six months, Canada will host the Open Government Partnership Summit. We look forward to bringing our municipal level participation officers, the people responsible to talking to people who are very upset online or on the street, and invite them as co-creators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have this art of engaging with people that turn them into co-designers. If you are willing to work with dynamic facilitation, with design thinking, with the transformational methodologies, we can start very small projects together, just like a co-creation workshop, online, on Slack channels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The UK people have set up #OneTeamGov. There’s Design in Gov, Gov Design, Gov Tech, and things like that. If you join one of those channels, we’re very happy to collaborate, to share the case studies that we made." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, share in a Crowd Law Catalog and other catalogs of ready-made solutions that you can reach out to people on the same level, be it municipal, provincial, city or township level, and collaborate on the tools itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We discovered the tools itself are the easiest to spread. Of course, policy, processes, and politics, that differs country by country. The simple quick wins and the tools that really saves you time, that we can share immediately." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "What are some of the things that you’ve seen in the government of Canada that connect to your work? Could you comment a little bit, maybe, on the digital enablement unit specifically, as well as anything else that comes to mind?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Digital enablement, to me, is fundamentally about a way to work across silos. This requires people to be acquainted with the digital tools, but in a shared workspace, not in separate workspaces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we use the tool called Sandstorm, sandstorm.io, that enables people in every level -- provincial, township, or municipality -- to go into the same platform, to write some apps, and to share those apps in the open with everybody else in the public service, while not worrying about single sign-on or cyber security." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I understand, the Digital Academy and the digital enablement work in Canada is looking also to look at existing tools, processes, and small apps from the gov tech and the civic tech communities, and bring them together into a catalog of sorts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We look forward to work with your digital enablement unit, both on the shared tools and processes, but also, just on the code level, to simplify data analytics, to simplify the way that people analyze the data, visualize the data, and work on the data in a responsible and ethical way." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "If there were people who saw social innovation and digital government as two different movements, if those groups weren’t connected, what might you have to say to some of those people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, before the sustainable development goals and the idea triple bottom line, people also think that economy, social, and environment are three different goals, and sometimes are at odds with each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the idea of partnership of the goals -- after the UNDP crowd-sourced a million voices, and made 169 goals -- we made sure that whichever goal you are working on, you are actually reinforcing every other sustainable development goal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It represents a new way of thinking. We’re no longer thinking of developed nations, developing nations, the economic sector, the social, the environmental sector. We’re thinking partnership for the goals together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use the language and the business models of the economic sector to enable sustainability in the environmental and the social sectors. This cross-sectoral view really is at the core of the SDGs. I welcome you to join SDG indexing movement, where we use the SDGs to index our work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, if you work in education, you can put down #SDG4, in your GitHub, or in your website communications. If, as I do, you work in open government, it could be #SDG16. If you work on cross-sectoral work, it’s SDG17." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For these kind of work, it’s all automatically reinforcing each other if we put it on the map, and we index our work in a way that reinforce each other. There’s no separate sectors in this partnership for the goals." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Adding on to that, can you talk about how people that might see digital government and social innovation, instead of just automating the processes and automating the same steps, how you’re forced to reevaluate the question and make sure that you’re actually answering and innovating in new ways?" }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Rather than just automating processes that already exist, making things happen in a different way, in an innovative way. Taking new approaches to old problems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Automating away the chores is always the first step, because otherwise, we don’t have room in our mind, in our time, in our schedule to really listen to people. I like the saying that people closest to the pain should be closest to the power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people have already automated away the chores, then we become human beings who can move around. I tour around Taiwan, to the rural, indigenous, and far away islands, and so on to listen to people, really, and live with people, be in their community, and discover the sheer values that they co-create together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The digital comes as a realization of these shared wishes and shared values. It is not tech that colonizes these people. We are not changing these people’s lives for the better. We are not using that rhetoric. We’re saying, there’s something that people collectively value, and it’s currently being blocked by old processes, top-down hierarchies, things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How can we just change the regulation and policy a little bit better, experiment for a year, and see whether it makes everybody feel better in their lives? So far, it’s been really working. We’ve been introducing autonomous vehicles that solves the last-mile transportations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re using AI in banking systems to give credits to people who don’t have a credit history. We are seeing a lot of platform economy services owned by the co-ops and the people of local region, instead of global multinationals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All these local social innovations can really benefit from an attentive public service that has already automated away the chores, and become an apparatus for listening at scale." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Last question for you. Can you talk a little bit about why it might be important for open government and social innovation movements to work together across jurisdictions and what that might look like?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, as the public service, we move at the speed of trust. If the government doesn’t trust the people, we will have no mandate, no will from the people, to move us forward democratically as a polity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the same for all the democratic countries and jurisdictions around the world. If the government, through open government, can trust the people radically, people will eventually trust back, and bring their views, their designs, their insights, their wisdom, into the governance system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If, on the other hand, the government doesn’t trust the people, and expect people to blindly put their data, put their records and things, into the governmental system, then, of course, people will feel closer to each other on social media and far more distant with the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that way the government will lose its speed to move in an agile way. If you want to innovate in an agile way, really, there’s no other choice than radically trust the citizens. We can move faster together in the speed of trust." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Specifically, how do you think different countries, provinces, or cities can work together across their jurisdictions?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I love this idea of working out loud. That is, saying if you have any part of code, data, design, or process, blog about it. Share it on GitHub. Share it on all those international channels that I mentioned." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once you do, tag and label it according to the mission that you are having to the world, you will find spontaneous connections. People can form support groups and units that share the same mission internationally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By just sharing case studies on, for example, the crowd log catalog, we get a worldwide view of people in different municipalities doing the processes that are talking to the people in, roughly speaking, the same way, which is why I tour around the globe, really, running two-day workshops, sharing the Taiwan experience of policy co-creation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We truly believe, by sending fellows from one jurisdiction to another, and sharing the civic tech inventions with the gov tech inventions, we’re co-creating a world in which the line between the government technology and digital, and the civic technology and digital and social innovation, is being blurred." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can have people in one jurisdiction learning about some methodology and cross-pollinate that into different jurisdictions. For example, right now, one of the leaders in civic tech Toronto, @patcon, Patrick Connolly, is in Taiwan for a multi-month study on the g0v community and of our methodology, just as we’re visiting Toronto, Ottawa, and Vancouver." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by bringing people, literally, in the same room together, sharing food, and feelings and building rapport, we build the foundation of online support groups in a much more real, authentic, and humane way." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Thank you. Is there anything else that you wanted to say at this time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "12 years ago, when I visited Canada, and to build a new computer language -- also called Raku now, it was called Perl 6 at that time -- I had this slogan. It’s called, \"Optimizing for fun.\" I think this is a very good message for the public service also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Digital enables people to participate in policymaking in a way that feels empowered. When people feels empowered, there is fun. There is space for playing with possibilities in the place of ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The government doesn’t have to be always boring. If you participate in digital spaces and engage authentically with social innovators and the civic tech people, you will discover also the joy in sharing your work and your mission with the citizens who will also treasure your professional input into the public welfare for all." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "That was wonderful, thank you very much. Really appreciate it." } ]

[ { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "歡迎您來到加拿大渥太華，想問您此行最大的收獲是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "此行還沒結束。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "對，So far……到目前為止。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很高興是在多倫多跟他們有一個兩天的工作坊，是臺灣這邊主辦的，我們跟公民社會的朋友們一起來當引導的工作坊訓練師，帶著他們在地公民社會的朋友們、NGO，還有包含多倫多市政府跟Ontario政府的官員們一起坐下來討論對臺灣跟多倫多都很重要的事情，就是Uber要如何進行進一步的規管、資料共享等等的題目；雖然不是很正式的政策對談，但是至少在臺灣討論這一件事的方法，讓加拿大這邊知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我印象有一點深刻的是，我們在工作坊剛開始的時候，我們看到在地NGO、公民社會的朋友們、市政府、省政府各級不同的朋友，好像會自己一小群坐在一起，所以第一件坐的事是打散，如果在桌子上有任何已經認識的人請坐到別的桌子去，所以他們就打散了，然後就用引導師的方法討論整整兩天。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很有意思的是，他們跟我說很多人是第一次這樣子跨部門、跨層級面對面討論這一件事，他們發現有很多共同的價值，這個是以前公文往返時很難找到的，透過面對面、有引導師的數位討論，很快就凝聚了價值，我覺得特別有成就感。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，我們在MaRS、多倫多大學、僑界都有非常多很好的互動，不過這個是多倫多的部分；我們在渥太華好像不能只講多倫多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在渥太華很感動的是Montreal僑界的朋友知道我要來渥太華，所以我在多倫多的時候，他們就說要開兩小時的車來對談。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也非常感謝駐處，其實這個是literally last minute，我們要上飛機前的一個小時才接到這樣子的需求，但是馬上就找到一個很好的場地，wifi也很順、大家都有熱食可以吃，僑界的朋友們是我一直到今天凌晨都還在回昨天會後給我很多的批評指教，很多建議。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "很熱烈。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常熱烈，而且很多朋友來這裡二十年、三十年，處長說還有五十年的朋友，是非常關心臺灣，然後不斷給我很多很好的回饋與意見，我想僑界在這邊熱情的程度是超過我的想像，然後也是各個不同的壯年、新生代、中生代都有，所以我覺得這個是特別好的，我對僑界感到印象非常深刻。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "剛剛提到共同價值，是不是可以舉具體的例子？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實在加拿大這邊跟臺灣一樣，最重要的一件事是inclusivity，我們叫做「涵融」。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "「包容」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，你不能讓任何人落掉，整個社會移動的速度是以信任的速度在移動，所以如果一小搓人，變成經濟上或者是發展上特別好，但是你把其他人的人權或者是其他人的access ability的近用性落掉了，這樣我們就說不inclusive，這個在加拿大、臺灣都是你不能不inclusive，我們做任何事情，聽障朋友、身障朋友，不同年齡層的朋友，不同文化的朋友，原住民族朋友都一定要有相同的話語權，這一件事我想是共同價值。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們在討論Uber的時候，他們在討論好比偏遠地區的朋友們交通權是有好處或者是壞處，如果跟計程車或者是Lyft都把資料共享出來，是不是公共建設可以照顧到付不起那麼多錢、比較弱勢的朋友們，所以我想inclusive的價值，是這邊公民社會、創業家，也就是私部門、公部門都是完全認同的價值，所以他們可能追求不同的永續經濟、社會環境的成長，但是至少這個是共同的價值。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "OK。您提到開放政府的概念，臺灣這一方面是首創或者是有其他的國家也在做這一方面的事？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想開放政府有一個國際的「開放政府夥伴關係」，這個是我們所謂「開放政府」的四個支柱，就是政府在做什麼要很透明地讓大家看到，看到之後大家要有能力提出意見，提了意見之後，政府答應、我們也答應哪一些有做到、哪一些沒有做到，要能夠當責，最後這一整套不能只讓少數人來用，必須讓所有人都來用，所以就是所謂的「透明」、「參與」、「課責」、「涵融」的四個支柱加在一起構成「開放政府」；但是他的目的是什麼？就是讓公部門能夠信任人民，而反過來人民也可以信任民主的正當程序。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這不是臺灣首創，不管是聯合國、OECD、開放政府夥伴關係，其實是一個世界公認的價值，我穿在身上的這個是「聯合國永續發展目標」，在這個「聯合國永續發展目標」裡面有十七個章節，十七個章節是2015年所有的成員都承諾到2030年我們就是要讓這一件事發生在全世界，不分開發中國家跟已開發國家，第16章就是在講開放政府，SDG 16.10是所有政府的資訊，只要跟基本權利、基本自由有關，大家都應該要可以拿得到，不管你是哪一種文化，都要在還快速的政府回應你，在他的決策過程中，一個當政府本身在進行行政作業的時候，說到要做到，要有一個當責機制，讓人民可以問責，所以整個開放政府是放在聯合國永續發展目標第16節。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "現在加拿大這邊有什麼樣的進展？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "加拿大才剛開始有一個Digital Minister，所以大家都很高興。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "那跟你的角色是一樣的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "非常好。你在這一方面跟加拿大政府有溝通嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，我們跟加拿大叫做「數位服務」，有非常多具體的討論，因為我們比較先兩年，我們是有很多的工具、做法等等，他們是非常有興趣的，所以我們稍候其實還會有另外一個interview，他們特別想要學臺灣在process上有哪一些可以學習的。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "臺灣是這一方面的先驅，也就是走到前面？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該這樣講，其實一直以來，我們致力於讓每一個地方都有寬頻網絡，所以我們發展數位治理的時候，並不會把原住民族落在後面，因為在臺灣任何地方，沒有寬頻就是我們的錯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是地方越小越容易，像愛沙尼亞更小，那就更容易，所以其實並不是誰走在前面，而是這樣子擴散，是有一定基礎、速度的，你地方越小，當然擴散就越容易。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是的。您昨天演講當中有提到，不斷在臺灣人權自由方面做一些貢獻，還會幫助其他地區的，您能舉一些具體的例子嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "其他地區的人權、自由及法制方面，您是不是可以具體舉一些例子？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們在臺灣做了一個「g0v」的公民社會，也就是您看到任何政府做的事不滿意，並不是上街抗議，而是做一個不一樣的給政府看，所以所有的政府網站是「gov.tw」結尾，但是公民社會的朋友們就可以加一個斜線，那就變成是「g0v」了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你要把一個網站從「o」換成「0」，你就進入了零時政府，在這個shuttle government，在這個shuttle government裡面，大家就可以用創造性的方式，把很枯燥無味的，像這個是整個中央政府預算變成很互動式的，如果在意勞動權益，可以只看勞動部某一小筆預算，也可以表示不懂、討論等等，所以就事論事的話，這個預算變成大家的留言版。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為都拋棄掉著作權，所以當政府一覺得這個是好主意，我們在今年就把它合併進來了，我們的「join.gov.tw」，臺灣2,300萬人裡面有500萬人在使用的公共參與系統，現在所有1,300個政府每一個部會一年以上的計畫，全部都在這邊用這個方式公開，公開之後任何人都可以看到他的進度、開了哪一些標案、研究案，而且留言、公務員可以即時回覆，這樣也給公務員成就感，並不是一通通電話慢慢解釋，而是可以一公布就在網路上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上個星期開始，當你走到「budget.g0v.it」的時候，你就會到義大利的零時政府。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "喔！這樣子？OK。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個想法其實是沒有國界的，任何地方都可以有自己的g0v，義大利也是把他的預算視覺化，在他提出永續發展目標的Jeffrey Sachs就在現場，像這樣子的一種創新才是民主需要的創新，我也是在臺灣隔海透過視訊、機器人來組合與討論，我覺得這個非常好，也就是g0v的想法到紐約、多倫多、馬德里，我們現在有一群人在馬德里到各個不同的其他地方。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "非常棒。這種策略推廣到全球，就在全球推廣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "非常好，祝福你。實際上網絡的概念，一方面在民主國家能夠促進政府互信，但是在一方面專制國家，有可能通過這一個方式對一些民眾進行這一種控制，您可能也知道大數據的概念，您怎麼看待這個問題，如何防範？像海峽對岸13億人口這麼大的國家，投入很多的財力、物力在做全球發展，我想問問您國際社會應該如何防範這一種網絡方面的滲透？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在臺灣叫做「假訊息」。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "假訊息？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「Disinformation」。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "喔，disinformation，對，對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「Disinformation campaign」對不對？" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "對。當然不只是中共還有其他專制國家的這一種方式吧！這一種滲透的方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，不過我想講的就是說，即使是PRC政權，它投入了相當多的人力、物力，在這個他們叫「維穩」的工作上，也沒有辦法完全防堵他們自己境內訊息的傳播。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是，是，是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們會投入這麼多人力、物力，當然是覺得這上面的訊息可能會威脅到他們的治理。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是不分民主或專制國家都會擔心的。當然，他們可以用一些特別的、不一定這麼在意人權的方法來進行處理。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是即使是這樣，即使投入了這麼多的人力、物力，他們還是並沒有杜絕在他們境內的網絡上面的這一些訊息。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我的意思是說，這是網絡的一個特性，當初網際網路發明的時候，我們說censorship is a damage, and we route around it，任何嘗試查禁網路上面的通訊，其實網路都會把它當作是網絡的一個破壞，網絡當時設計出來的時候，就是要繞過這一些破壞的點，讓人跟人之間的通訊還是可以發生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我要說的是，即使是在PRC裡面，也沒有辦法阻止裡面做開放式創新的朋友，好比說連到一個叫「github」的網站，而這一個網站非常重要，微軟最近把它併購了，這個網站是所有我們剛才講的，所有這一些數位的創新、區塊鏈、AI的這一些東西，都是在網站上，大家一起共同創造。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以PRC沒有辦法限制住它裡頭的人不連到這個網站，因為如果把它禁止，最新、最前的科研就沒有辦法發生。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是，因為確實有一些網絡監控這一種審查制度是吧！隨著海外的一些網站，中國大陸的老百姓是查不到的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，但是這個我在講的是開放原始碼的核心網站，他們是沒有封禁的，而且他們也不敢去封禁，他們每一次想到封禁，他們內部的科研單位就會重新掌控話語權，所以事實上他們並沒有任何一次真的成功長時間屏蔽github這個網站。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我要講的是說，人類共同創造的意願跟共同溝通的意願，目前為止看起來是PRC政權，它也沒有辦法去完全地防堵它，在github上面就有非常多的專案、非常多的項目，它特別指出像之前有一個莆田系醫院名單等等的，就是一些社會上大家關心的一些話題，這一些項目其實透過github，讓他在PRC政權裡面的朋友們也能夠進行共同創作的工作。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "非常好。現在就是說很多人說現在是自媒體時代。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "就是傳統意義上的媒體已經跟不上自媒體的這個發展了，那您覺得……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是大家都是自媒體了。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是。對社會、臺灣社會有什麼影響？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。我想我們當媒體的工作者，因為我父母親都是媒體的工作者，都是學到最基本的要查證、平衡，這些正規的程序。但是其實自媒體，像現在開一個youtuber，沒有受過媒體從業者的訓練，可能會覺得有一些事聽到就直接轉傳了，也不需要做一個查證的工作，或者是事後發現這一個訊息可能有一點片面，可能也不會像我們做平衡報導的動作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以第一個是，我們希望在臺灣新的課綱，就是國民小學開始的教育裡面，從明年開始，我們就把這一種自媒體的媒體素養教給所有一年級的學生，所以國小、國中、高中的一年級都開始學會，每一個人都要很負責擔任媒體的角色，任何人都是守門員，不會只有是大眾媒體是守門員了，只有這樣子，我們才可以在訊息好像洪水一樣的情況下，因為像您剛剛提到一些政權所做的方法，可能有很高的堤防，但是其實我們在做的是讓大家都會游泳或者是在這樣的訊息洪水，找到自己的方向，所以這樣子大家才不會像以前威權時代，因為臺灣也經過威權時代，覺得好像有一個標準答案，然後一定是怎麼樣的字體、怎麼樣寫得一定是對的服從性性格。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們的新課綱強調的是自發性，在自發性大家就可以成為自媒體，但是又同時瞭解到我們要盡社會的媒體責任，這個時候才可以讓這樣子的假訊息，在我們保障所有人的言論自由的情況下，我們在民主的第一線，來證明這個對民主是一件好事，而不是一件壞事，所以media literacy我想最重要。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "非常好。還有現在是鼓勵開放政府、AI，那會不會對就業是一種衝擊？因為很多人已經不需要再人工這樣工作，可能更多的是依賴電腦及高科技的東西，你怎麼看待這個問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們的工作裡面只有一些部分沒有創造性的，好比像你是一個小學老師，你大部分的時間其實是在聽學生的學習狀況，是在瞭解他的家庭跟成長背景，但是你教數學，最後教一個數學考卷給你，他最後交一個數學考卷給你加減乘除，批改的時候是最無聊的時候，你任何老師來批改，結果都是一樣的，所以這一個部分在臺灣有一個詞，叫做「工具人」，就是你在做這個的時候，好像自己變成工具。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那這個部分，AI現在非常容易解決，你拿一個手機掃過去就批改完了，你說這個是不是讓老師的教育工作消失？他沒有讓它消失，而是花了更多的時間跟人相處、創造共同價值、彼此聆聽。也就是說，真正消失的是裡面重複性的，我們說很「冗」的、trivial的這一些項目，而不是整個工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我們現在在新的課綱裡面有特別強調，不要有個人跟個人間的競爭，因為如果有太多競爭，以前是技能導向，我做一件事是5秒鐘，比你做7秒鐘來得快，有一些成就感，但是其實這一些部分，如果你過度認同這一些技能，等到電腦1秒鐘做完，大家都感到尊嚴有所喪失，所以我們現在注重素養教育，不是在人跟人之間相比，而是團隊跟團隊還是互相相比，但是人跟人之間自發、互動及共好，這個的話，任何AI的技術來了，都是為這一些素養服務，而不是我們太認同特定的技能，所以像死背的這一些東西都不太需要，AI幫我們做好了，我們要做的是有創造力的部分，所有的職務、工作都會進行再設計、再造的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所謂的「再造」是什麼意思？像身心障礙者要進行一個工作的時候，本來一個人可以做的，要分成三個步驟，這個步驟是他特別擅長、能做，同樣的道理我們也要進行職務留存的再造，我們去看所有的工作裡面，哪一些部分的輸入、輸出很固定，而且任何人來、生命經驗再不同的人，做出來的結果都一樣，只有快慢的差別，這個部分就交給AI，其他有成就感、有創造感的部分就交給人。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "非常好。事實上就是一種結合，也就是人工跟這一種電腦技術相結合。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們現在聽「AI」，其實是augment to intelligence，延伸、擴增我們的智慧，而不是替代掉我們的智慧。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "對，非常好。開放政府這一些概念上是屬於臺灣的軟實力，是不是可以展開一下，臺灣軟實力包含哪一些東西？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在會用一個字叫做「暖實力」，為什麼是「暖」？主要是以開放式，而不是殖民式的態度，來分享技術上及社會上的創新，我舉一個很具體的例子，在臺灣我們有很多環境團體，非常關心臺灣的空氣，這邊是2,000多個朋友們用一個叫做「空氣盒子」，也就是便宜不到100美金的觀測站，在自己的家裡、學校及陽台去觀察空氣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們不是只觀察他們自己家，也放到臺灣中央研究院的網絡裡面，一眼就可以看到目前的空氣品質，這個在東亞是非常少見的，東亞很多朋友看到我們說不要等2,000個測站了，如果民間自己組織到20個就查水錶了，到200個就請去政府裡工作了，如果不去政府當中工作，可能要消失了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這個威脅到政府的公信力，如果我們的環保署有一個數字，民間的朋友有另外一個數字，但是這個數字是你有參與的，你當然相信民間，當然不會相信政府的，所以其實從某個角度上是在挑戰政府的正當性；但是在臺灣我們是採取一個打不過就加入的態度，所以中央政府是絕對不會限制這個叫做「集會結社」的自由。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們反而是看缺哪一些地方，可能在高山上，可能在原住民族的這一些地方，這個是比較少的，因此我們投入很多的經費，去把寬頻、觀測帶到這裡，我們也讓公民社會的朋友知道如果你需要更低成本、精確度更高的觀測器，我們也幫你去製造，而且甚至我們還聽到公民社會的朋友說他們希望在這一個地方有一個觀測站，他們才可以知道是哪裡來的空氣污染。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "也就是集思廣益？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這裡是公民科學家不能去的，因為是在海上，但是我們可以去，因為我們要做離岸風機，是風力發電廠，所以一定有電，我們就直接掛在離岸風機上，他就會加入公民社會的網絡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一些數字在上傳到我們國家高速網路計算中心之前，都先放在分散式帳本，就是區塊鏈上，這樣的意思是什麼？也就是國家不能篡改公民的資料。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "這些都是民間的組織？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "自發做成的。所以他們可以信任放在國網中心之後，就可以去做氣候變遷相關的研究，而且這個是開放的，各國的朋友只要一想到要用，自己就可以從網路上下載下來，自己裝了空氣盒子，就自己加入臺灣所領導的網絡，所以這也不需要簽國對國的合約，任何人在任何地方關心環境，就可以用臺灣的這一套創新。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我們有一個專有的網站，就是所謂的群眾智慧，也就是民生公共物聯網，我們有AI Taiwan，也有CI Taiwan（群眾智慧），我們也有SI Taiwan（社會創新），這一些網站的特性是空氣品質、防救災、地震、水資源，這一些都是整個地球的，並不是哪一個國家專屬的，我們都用國際標準分享給國際的科研社群，讓他們可以具體進行貢獻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像水資源，因為氣候變遷，大家往往都有一個乾旱期的問題，所以在臺灣自來水公司就把他的水壓、水流量的這一些數據，把它提供出來，讓做AI的朋友能夠去幫助這一些老師傅，而這一些師傅以前有新的漏水點到聽到這個漏水點，環台聽要一年半的時間，因為那個管線很長，但是現在因為有機器學徒了，所以他們可以不需要做一些很冗的工作，AI會告訴那一些學徒最可能漏水，就可以先聽，就可以用創造性的方法去解決漏水的問題，所以工作也更有成就感，而且年輕人也願意加入。這樣的做法就把以前漏水的偵測時間，從以前的一年半縮短到1/10，這個是非常好的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "紐西蘭就看到我們這一個工作了，所以現在這一組人在三個月的總統盃社會創新黑客松之後，現在還在威靈頓，他們也在威靈頓待三個月，用他們水公司的資料，幫他們解決缺水的問題。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "他們事實上是從臺灣學到這一種方式？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "臺灣一整組人就過去了，這樣也是一種外交。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是屬於民間的團體過去？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是自來水公司。裡面當然也有公部門的朋友，也有行政院院本部的朋友，但是是以個人的身分去那邊，他們參加的也不是真正意義上所謂的公部門，而是也是他們的水公司、創新中心，所以都是跨部門的合作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你想一想，一個地方願意把他的這一種資料交給另外一個地方的朋友，是需要非常大的信任，因為這個事實上是關鍵的基礎建設，所以這樣子互相創造，這個是互信的表現，如果當地有AI的朋友提出更好的算法，他們也在解決臺灣的缺水問題，所以開放式是對所有人好的。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "對，就是打破了這一種國家跟區域的界限。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，這個就是暖實力的意義。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "您能介紹一下您個人的一些情況嗎？我知道您是加入政府部門，之前很資深的專家，收入也滿高的，您為什麼放棄這一種？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我退休了。我2014年就退休了。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是嗎？為什麼做出這樣的決定呢？加入到臺灣的政府部門來做公職人員？有什麼樣的這一種想法呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我的研究工作一直都是數位的技術，怎麼樣促進大家快速彼此信任，然後達到彼此理解、共同做出決定，這個以前在我的私部門工作、社會部門工作都是在做這個研究，當然在臺灣有一個2014年太陽花運動，透過占領國會22天的方法，g0v協助占領者20個NGO給全世界看到，如果你用好的數位技術，大家可以越討論越收斂，不一定要越討論越發散，所以最後就凝聚出五個共識。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當時立法院的院長就接受了，所以這個占領跟別的占領運動不太一樣，別的占領好像方向不太明確，但是我們是越占領方向越明確，而且到最後是立法院接受占領的結果，所以這樣的一種demonstration就讓我看到一個希望，也就是臺灣整個人民都準備好，當政府能夠放下面子問題，然後說政府某件事情上沒有資源的時候，人民願意跳進來，我們叫做「跳坑」，也就是自己願意填坑，也就是願意把社會上這一些漏洞、不足的地方、缺口，好像自己用志工或者是社會企業的方式，去把它彌補上，這個非常難能可貴的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在進行數位工作的時候，開放政府工作的時候，我同時也是社會創新的政委，所以我在做的是讓公部門放下面子問題，可以很具體說什麼地方是力有未逮，我們明年就會有預算做，中間這個缺口如果不怕面子的問題，民間就可以加入，可以把抗議、憤怒化為共同創造的力量，所以我的公共服務大概就是這樣的工作，因此我把自己叫做「公僕的公僕」，我是為了公共服務來做公共服務。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "瞭解。提到創新，臺灣有什麼樣的政策來鼓勵這一種創新呢？包括社會創新、技術上的創新。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，其實在臺灣最大的特點，我們連法規都可以創新，就是如果你現在有一個新的想法，可能自駕車、用AI做銀行或什麼的，或平台經濟，你可以跑到這個網站上，就說政府之前承認過在某個地方有社會問題，政府現在沒有辦法解決，但是我主張只要更改這一條法規或者是甚至更改這一條法律，事情就會變得更好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個時候我sandbox就會找到他，會說是平台經濟、金融創新、無人載具上的創新，然後就會有一年的時間來違法，所以在那個區域裡面，就可以一年等於法規命令按照他的想像來運作，然後證明給社會看這個對社會是好事，但是如果過了一年，整個社會覺得不是好事，我們當然就撤銷，我們就感謝投資者付出了學費，然後大家新的朋友們就用別的方法來創新，但是如果這個是一件好事，最多再擴大實驗一年，但是法規必須要寫的版本，如果是法律，立法院要做更多的討論、程序，討論了三、四年最多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是在討論的過程中，這個實驗包含營運模式都可以繼續，也可以繼續掙錢，等到法律修改完了，競爭者當然就可以進入市場，這個就是創新的動力，因為可以在調適的期間，等於是獨家的經營者，但是最後的創新還是開放的，也就是法規因為命令修改之後，當然其他人也還是能夠進入市場，所以這個叫做「用社會創新帶動法規創新」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個好處是什麼？我們的立法委員、政務委員不需要想辦法想像一些我們沒有第一手經驗的東西，像無人載具誰也沒有第一手經驗，這一些FinTech很少有人有第一手經驗，我們可以給整個社會看一年，先模擬一下，然後確保這真的對大家都是一件好事。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "政府部門是不是有一些篩選？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然你必須說解決什麼社會問題，好比像金融，最近有一個沙盒的實驗，如果一個年輕人從來沒有貸款的紀錄，也沒有什麼存款的紀錄，我們很難計算授信額度，也就是要借給你多少錢、利息怎麼算，所以結果是十幾歲的年輕人，像十八歲剛出社會，反而貸不到錢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而這個時候讓這一些朋友們能夠做金融服務，所以叫做「金融普惠」，所以有一家電信公司提了一個想法，也就是他們是從十幾歲就繳電信費的帳單，他可以把繳款紀錄當作授信紀錄，但是這個其實金管會的風險管理原則裡面並沒有這一條，但是主張如果你讓我電信費的帳單紀錄來計算授信額度，更多人就可以達到金融普惠，所以這個有社會價值，所以我們現在就讓他違法一年試試看，用他的版本法律來計算。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個時候要辦銀行開戶，也不用用雙證件什麼的，就用當年拿到的sim卡，也就是辦電信業的戶頭，就當作KYC了，你辦了這張手機的sim卡就等於開戶了，這個是新的，這個也是違法的，所以是有一年的時間違法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "實驗4,000人，只要有五個人冒名頂替，人頭或者是怎麼樣洗錢等等方式，實驗就馬上結束，表示這個算法還不足夠，但是如果一年之後發現沒有什麼風險，大家真的可以達到金融普惠，這個就變成新的工具。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "現在這個？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還在進行當中。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "這個很了不起。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。這個也是為什麼世界經濟論壇在最新的年度報告裡面，全世界有四個叫做「super innovator」，也就是「超級創新者」，也就是瑞士、德國、美國及臺灣，因為我們是有特別適合創新的環境。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "這個在臺灣世界上也是比較領先的做法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，就是所謂的四大創新者。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "是，非常好，行，謝謝你，唐政委，非常好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "I got the story. You talk about digital government and government services, a little bit about you, why you’re in Canada, all that good stuff. I know you’re speaking at a conference. Are you speaking later today, or was it yesterday?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I did it yesterday as a keynote and then also as a domain expert for service delivery in a conversation. It went well." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Good. I wanted to make it to the conference, but it didn’t work out. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure they’ll put recordings and write-ups and whatever online." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Hopefully." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Perfect. Tell me about why you’re here. Have you met with any Canadian officials or done anything notable?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Interesting? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Yeah. What have you been up to?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, I visited Toronto for a couple of days. I worked with the Civic Tech Toronto, which is part of Code for Canada, a network of civic technologists. We organized a two-day workshop for the people in the Ontario government, people in the Toronto City government, for the civil society organizations, professional facilitators, and the Civic Tech people to learn about how to deliberate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We chose an issue that’s come onto both Taiwan and Ontario, which is Uber and Lyft and other ride-sharing services. I think here it’s called private taxi companies, private transport companies. Both of those have regulated them in 2016. Now, it’s due for a review in Ontario, I believe." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We chose that as a subject for us to simulate a different way about talking about these instead of by public commentary and consultation around different focus group, we experimented with a more structured conversation where we bring the different stakeholders and check with each other’s facts, then after that, feelings, after that, ideas and after that, decisions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a long consultation. We witnessed something very interesting, which is the civil society organizations, the tech people, the city envoy, the provincial people, they started the workshop sitting very close to their kins." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our first instruction in the workshop, which is co-hosted by about six facilitators from Taiwan is to maximize the number of strangers in each table so that in each table, you if feel somebody you already know, move to some other table so they really mix and work together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Some of them tell us that it’s the first time they actually sit down face-to-face to talk about this cross-sectoral issue in a way that feels a lot of rapport. People actually build common values instead of just sending Word documents to each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a highly-facilitated conversation, and I learned a lot about the civic tech people here. We visited MaRS. We visited quite a few, like Toronto University and things like that, and worked with the social innovators here as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, the civic tech people and the social enterprises were mingling together. Here, it seems like the two are just starting to talk to each other. That’s one of the observations that I’ve had in Toronto." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "How about in Ottawa? What are you up to here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Ottawa, I attend the FWD50 Conference. The conference brings everybody digital together. It’s primarily run by the Canadian Digital Service as well as the other, like Digital Academy, the CIO, your new digital minister, [laughs] and people like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People feel, I think, very optimistic. For the first time, digital is seen as one of the pillars in government services, in delivery of news services, in reducing the work and the risk of public service, in making it more accessible, inclusive, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the first time, digital feels like something that includes everybody in better service delivery rather than just IT, which is mostly just about automation and cost reduction, which is not that interesting for ordinary citizens. The spirit of co-creation was one of the main theme at the conference, and that’s the topic I talk about as well." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Canada’s just beginning to get into digital services. In July is when we appointed our minister of digital government. What advice do you have for Canada in terms of how to integrate digital more into everyday life and into government services?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My first suggestion -- this is my keynote -- is to basically think digital innovation and social innovation in the same strand of thought instead of being two different things. This is my office in Taiwan, literally, and people just visited." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are people drawn by people with Down Syndrome. With the right digital technology, their communication style in geometry is actually better than we are. They turn out to be excellent visual artists that can do conceptual design, CIS, VI, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without those digital technology enablers, we will think of them as vulnerable populations, while they actually bring their unique contribution to this community. Because I’m here in this space every Wednesday, 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, everybody can talk to me provided that they are willing to have the transcript published on the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have rough sleepers, people who are homeless. We have social workers. We have people of indigenous lands and things like that to come visit me and ask me to visit their lands also. We introduce digital technologies like these self-driving tricycles in a way that helps the elderly, for example, in their transportation issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It always exists in a open way, meaning that if the elders and the community don’t like particularly how it flashes red when they feels that it doesn’t understand the situation, they can always change that very easily without encumbered by patents and copyright." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that it’s always introduced in response to a real social need so it’s not colonial. It’s not some huge corporation wanting to use people here to experiment, rather a response to what people really needs here, which is a increasingly elderly population that needs transportation and a domestic animal that follows them to carry things, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Digital and social, I think, are two sides of the same coin. Instead of thinking large tech company and social non-profit meets, we really need to be in the spirit of co-creation. That’s my main message." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "What do you think are some steps that Canada could go about doing that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the, I think, very good thing that Canada is doing is introducing a digital service standard. Taiwan also just rolled out the government digital service principle a couple months back. The standard basically affects procurement. It says that any new procurement need to consider the people and people’s needs before procuring any services." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the same spirit is in Taiwan and in Canada in that, in some jurisdiction, it’s OK to save people’s time by one hour by having the civil service work two extra hours just to please their constituents. Here, as well as in Canada, we consider front-line civil service as very important and the capacity-building very important, so that they are also users. They are also stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We need to build digital services that reduce time and risk for both sides in a service journey. That is a very enlightened view. It applies to people with visual impairments, with different languages, like full inclusive and accessibility. That is one thing I think we have in common." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People genuinely find it surprising when I say in Taiwan broadband is a human right. If you don’t have 10 megabits per second, it’s my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The geography of Taiwan is pretty small. From the north to south, at most, it’s just one and a half hours by high-speed rails so we can afford to deliver broadband as human rights, even in places where it doesn’t make economic sense to do so in market force. In Canada, we understand the situation is rather different." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Better broadband infrastructure using more innovative technologies, such as the 5G technology, that is one thing that is very worthwhile for Canada to look into." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even in places where it’s only land line service, there exists ways for people just call a toll-free number and talk to a Siri-like assistant that can search the Internet for whatever relevant information and get back to them through AI-powered services. They even deploy that in Columbia, of all places." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is one of the things that a innovative digital service can look into, is just to make people’s life better using existing tools and habits that they’re using." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "I guess that is the biggest thing with Canada. The bureaucracy tends to be pretty slow moving. We’re just starting to move into the more digital space. How do you think that Canada can keep up? Technology moves so quickly that often by the time the government is done procuring something, you think of our pay system which has a giant problem right now." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "They procured it 10 years ago and they only launched it in 2016 and already technology has surpassed them. How do you balance that process and bureaucracy with digital technology that’s moving so much faster?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We introduced an idea in Taiwan. Technologically it’s called Open API, and I am going to explain it in more detail. Basically, we said, here as well in Taiwan, if you build a website, you have to let people who are blind to be able to use the website." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called accessibility standard. It’s either through voice synthesis, captioning of images, braille display, or whatever it has to be able to be used in the same quality as people who are sighted. In Taiwan, we say AI or machine learning is a kind of blind people. [laughs] They’re not quite legal people, but they’re a legitimate user and reader of the digital services." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If a vendor says that, \"I can only deliver the service to you through like PDF files or scans,\" or whatever, that is useful to humans but it’s not structured for machine learning. Then they have to charge extra, a lot more money to build a machine-to-machine interface to [inaudible 11:42] API, then we deem them as unprofessional, and they could be disqualified from the procurement process for saying so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, all our new and revised procurement projects need to include interface, not for people to see only but also interface for other machines. The end result is that it could be a old system, but it’s OK because we can do a separate pilot procurement that puts a new paint on it, that delivers it through chatbot, or through virtual reality, or through whatever, without affecting the old system underneath." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At least it has a circuit that other people can plug into, but they cannot refuse to build a circuit. I think that is one concept that when I talk with the Digital Service and Digital Academy people, they really appreciate and they might look into incorporating that into Canada’s procurement." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "One of the biggest complaints or downsides of automation is that it loses human jobs, because machines can often do things faster than humans can. How do you balance the need for innovation with also making sure people have a way to make money? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It only reduce tasks though. It doesn’t reduce jobs. Like in our work at the moment during the interview, only very few part of it is mechanical. It’s mostly about understanding where we’re coming from and having a life experience to exchange authentically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That part is not automatable by artificial intelligence at all. The part where we take this recording and make a transcript, that actually is automatable. I don’t enjoy doing that, and I imagine you won’t, either." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Transcription is my least favorite part of doing this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, because it doesn’t call upon our unique life experiences. No matter what education, what life experience we had, we’re going to end up with exactly the same thing. That part is purely mechanical and so automation will of course make that part redundant." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use just high quality microphone because we can use AI to turn that into transcripts, and so because of that, the part in journalism that we don’t enjoy because it treats us as machines, not people, are delegated to machines, not people, to do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It leaves more time for us to do the communication and quality journalism, and brings a perspective. Basically, the idea is that we look into our jobs and find the things that are trivial. Trivial is a computer science term that means it has a well-defined input, well defined output, and people’s creativity doesn’t make any difference. It’s only precision and speed that makes a difference." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For trivial parts of the job, of course they will be automated, but there are very few jobs that are entirely trivial. It lifts all of us to do more quality jobs, and I think we get paid better, actually." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Turning more to you and your work as a minister, why do you choose to have everything transcribed and put on the Internet that you’re...Where does that philosophy come from?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The radical transparency is how the Internet is built. The Internet doesn’t have laws or regulations. They have what we call requests for comments, or RFCs, and the requests for comments are entirely voluntary. You can choose to follow it, you can choose to not follow it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people all follow the Internet Protocol, their machines connect to each other. That’ the inter part in the Internet. It’s by voluntary association, but how does the legitimacy of the Internet comes forward so that everybody need to hook into the same Internet Protocols?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Internet doesn’t have a Army or a Navy. It can’t force any sovereign country to connect to the Internet, and the Internet as a body, it doesn’t even report to the any of the states. The UNITU tried for years to absorb us, but now it’s more of a partnership. Every year, there’s a UNITU Internet Governance Forum. I participated last year in Geneva as a robot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, what I mean is, the Internet is sovereign. It’s sovereign because the legitimacy it draws from radical transparency that you can see exactly how the decision is made. Anyone who claim to have a stake can send an email and join the rule making process of the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my first political system I learned when I was 15-year-old. That was 1996, and I told my teachers that, \"My textbook are out of date. I can join this new world of the World Web.\" They actually agree with it, so I dropped out of high school and started a few start-up and participated in Internet governance. It would be another six year before I get my voting right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is the only political system that I know for the first part of my entrepreneurship life. I later learned, \"Oh, there’s representative democracy.\"" }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "How do you go about your day? What does day look like on maybe an average day when you’re not traveling?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It all depends on which day of the week it is, because I have a very by the week schedule. As I said, every Wednesday I’m in the Social Innovation Lab for everybody to talk to. On Tuesdays, I tour around Taiwan to district Hualien, a more indigenous place and Taitung even more indigenous tribes and nations live there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I tour around Taiwan like this, the 12 ministries working in social innovation are in Taipei in the Social Innovation Lab, but they see through my eyes how the local people are like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m like their investigative reporter that goes to places, maybe stay for a day or two, and really understand what the people there are suffering from, what their problems are with the current regulations and policies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, if they write an email to their minister, that ministry will say, \"Oh, we’ll have to consult that ministry, that ministry, that ministry.\" It’s always a structural problem, but when all the 12 ministries are in the same room, enjoying good food, good geometric design, and things like that, they actually get into a very creative mode." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They think about solutions together, seeing face-to-face though digital technology to resolve the local issues. Usually, they resolve it just like that within two weeks because it’s every two-week iteration cycle." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they admit that the government doesn’t have the resource or the policy currently is really a problem, is really blocking the social process, the entire thing is published on the Internet, really very transparent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody who want to break the rule in the name of social innovation can then go to the sandbox platform and say, \"We’re going to break this rule or regulation, or even law locally because you guys have admitted that the government is currently unable to deliver.\"" }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "They’re like, \"I see in your transcript that you said the government can’t do the solution, so...\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Then they get a free pass, either in platform economy, fintech, or [inaudible 18:56] or 5G, to experiment on new innovations without maybe breaking the law for one year in that vicinity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody gets to see whether, did it actually solve their social problem and highlight it or not? If it doesn’t, it’s open innovation. Everybody learn something. The government costs nothing. If it really solves the problem, it becomes the new regulation and competitor can enter the market. That’s how we drive innovation, and that’s Tuesdays." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Are you ever concerned about security when you’re traveling around different parts of the world or even different parts of Taiwan? I think of our ministers. A lot of the time, they’re in very structured environments. The Prime Minister’s security guards often say Prime Minister Trudeau was difficult in a way because he loves going into large crowds, which cause security headaches." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Are you ever concerned about stuff with that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m concerned about cybersecurity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This actually just came out two days ago. I make sure that the operating system, the hardware are the latest. I use the state of the art into an encrypted systems, and cybersecurity hardened virtual work spaces, and things like that, but I don’t worry about physical security." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think there are people who would want to harm me, because this way of communication, it’s to the benefit of everybody on the planet actually, so I’m an enemy of nobody." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "As far as we know, you’re the world’s first transgender minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Do you feel like you need to set an example at all or..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-mm." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "No? OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m post-gender, so I don’t care. That’s what it is. I think also in many Taiwanese First Nations, some of them are matriarchical like Amis. In for example Paiwan, which is I think our president’s grandmother’s nation, they don’t actually make a difference based on gender in their social roles and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In my young age, just right after dropping out of high school, around that age, I lived also in the indigenous tribes in the Atayal region. I have a pretty different view around gender and gender expressions. I get the idea of the two-spirited and things like that, which carries a very non-binary situation in the First Nations. I mostly bring my gender understanding and narrative from that tradition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, the Internet, nobody cares about your gender anyway. Everybody is an email away. I would say I’m post-gender. It speaks highly of Taiwan’s human rights status when the LGBTIQ people are now talking not about social discrimination or whatever. They’re talking about a lot more like recognizing the third gender legally and things like that, really progressive things, which is very unique in East Asia." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Taiwan is a leader in that region on gender issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Constitutionally, the marriage equality is recognized by the Constitutional Court. Also, in the past few years, the gender mainstreaming effort has really seeped into every part of our ministry. Dr. Tsai, she is not some politician’s daughter or politician’s wife. She earned the presidency by herself. All this I think speaks very highly about gender mainstreaming and also of LGBTIQ rights." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "As a minister too, what do you think is the most difficult part of your job?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, what we’re trying to do, and it’s taken us some time, is to raise the awareness that the economic sector, the social sector, and the people caring about environment, that they don’t have to be enemies. They don’t have to work at tension." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through social innovation and the Sustainable Development Goals, which is structured that if you work in any of those 169 targets, you automatically reinforce everybody else in the other two sectors. The digital part is important because it makes everybody play on the same accountable growth, and that people can work on economy but without causing environmental externalities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can work on social solidarity in effective partnerships with social enterprises. Through open innovation, we can turn, I don’t know, plastic waste into oil or something like that, into carbon, into oil and things like that. This kind of cross-sectoral partnership is really new to Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The branding of sustainable development goals, it really only caught on in the past couple of years or so. I understand in Canada it’s still also just catching on, right?" }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think both Taiwan and Canada in our Voluntary National Reviews, we both admitted that there is a lot more to do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why I wear this all the time, and the pin and everything. The challenge now is really to raise the awareness about sustainability. It’s not just an environmental thing. It’s something that you can combine other sectors. We will, I guess, take a few more years to reach the point where people don’t think about the three part of the society as at tension but as reinforcing each other." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "When you’re thinking of a social policy, you’re also considering impact on the environment and how you can make that more digital, so they all work in tandem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, and also it creates more jobs with dignity." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Would you recommend our digital government minister, for example, do things like the Social Innovation Lab where you sit for 12 hours and just talk to whoever comes in?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I think that’s one really important innovation. It shows to people, especially in the more remote places, that we really bring technology to people instead of asking people to come to technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It changes the narrative around technology because where people, especially First Nations but also in the under-resourced places, they really don’t want the people go here and set the agenda through this disruptive technology that doesn’t really solve their social problem, or it does solve the social problem but it cause environmental problem, and so on and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They really want to set the agenda, and so by bringing the experiences of being deeply listened to, by bringing dynamic facilitation, which was invented here in Canada, by bringing facilitation to people and making sure that facilitators work in a digitally enabled environment where the people’s conversations can be captured, synthesized and heard back in the capital." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it brings a different narrative where the agenda is set by the people. We say devolution, I think that’s the same word that’s used here, where people even in townships of 50K people and so on, should be able to set their own identity, their own agenda. The digital agenda stems from those consensus instead of in the top-down manner. That would be my suggestion." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Do you use digital technology and Skype into other remote parts? That’s what you mean when you say digital..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I go there and then I Skype back to Taipei." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "You first came to prominence as a protester." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "What was that like, to be in the parliament and occupying it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I make a distinction, because what we did is a demonstration and not a protest. We made a demonstration or a demo. In the software language, a demo means that we show instead of telling the government how to do things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around that time, the MPs were refusing to deliberate substantially a service trade agreement. They were on strike, so the people went into parliament and did the MPs’ job for them..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...by deliberating substantially that particular service and trade agreement. It’s concerted efforts by more than 20 NGOs, each deliberating from a different angle like labor rights, environmental, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each NGO is supported by the g0v community, which is my tribe, to ensure a neutral, facilitated, fully transparent conversation around the 20 NGOs. Instead of other occupies where it goes nowhere because everybody has their own agenda, we converged over time." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "The digital was the connector between everyone else." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Every day, using digital means, we can see what are the rough consensus of people. At one point, it was half a million people on the street, and we’re still able to get what people generally feels like when it comes to the CSSTA." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We also developed tools where they can enter their company name or company registration number and show exactly which part of the STA affects them, so it enables a evidence-based conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After three weeks, we converged on five consensus, and then head of parliament accept that, and so the occupy was a victory. I always say it’s a demo. It’s a demonstration, it’s not a protest. Protest is asking the government to do something, but g0v is, we do something and show the government how things should be done." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "How do you think that can be translated into the Canadian context, where people might not be as familiar with...We’re used to traditional protest in Canada." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "How do you go about that to bring about social change?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s where the civic tech community comes in. We just bootstrapped, started g0v Italy. This was the first g0v project before I joined the movement in 2012. It’s called budget.g0v.tw, and shows the visualization of the Taiwanese annual budget." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can draw down to the exact part you would care, and express your sentiment. You can request for more information. You can have a dialogue. By this year, we merged it because all the g0v projects relinquished most of the copyright. Anything the government really think is a good idea, they can merge it back into public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We merged it into the join.gov.tw platform, which at the moment, after 23 million people in Taiwan, 5 million people are using the platform to show the part of the budget and have a conversation with the spending, with the KPI procurement and so on, with the career public service without going through the MPs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The career public service actually get to show the professionalism without having to answer forty phone calls, each one not knowing that people have asked about this before. It’s a public forum around the budget." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "It’s like releasing any kind of media request, for example, answers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. If you go to budget.g0v.it today, you’ll see the equivalent thing, but in Italy. G0v is not trademarked. It’s not patented. It’s just a meme that everybody can build a shadow government by taking any government website they don’t like, change that O to a zero, and get into the shadow government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the civic tech community, the Code for Canada people, really likes this idea. They are now much more willing to, for example, volunteer and contribute to, for example, user testing. Traditionally, when the traditional procurement do the focus groups, it’s usually with experts. Always university students who have a lot of time, but they’re not a good statistical representative of the population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are now hearing that civic tech people here are now assembling their own civic user testing groups that comprise of people who are much more statistically balanced. When the government is planning to roll something out, they can contribute by pretesting some early version of that idea. This, again, is not protesting, asking the government to do something. It’s volunteering in a process of co-creation." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Are you meeting with any Canadian officials while you’re here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Which ones?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Several. We met with the Digital Academy, the Canadian Digital Service. It’s always in the context of FWD50, where we have a conversation around procurement and service delivery with the people responsible for that here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just with Canadians, it’s also with Uruguay, South Wales, Australia. It’s truly international, with Ireland and so on. We are in the panels where we compare notes and share the better practices." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "I think that’s everything. I think I’m out of time. I think I said half an hour?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we’re good. We’re just having our..." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Perfect. All right, then. You clearly think that technology can make the world better and change the world. What advice would you give to young people who share that dream or that goal?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say that when you study technology, don’t think of it as technology for technology’s sake. Try to think what kind of limitations of physics, like paper-based workflow or the physical environment, is preventing people who think differently from realizing their common values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the Taiwanese education system, which I was part of the K-12 curriculum committee before joining the cabinet, we’re rolling our new curriculum starting next year, that instead of a skill-based education system, where people acquire tech skill A, tech skill B, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "They take a programming class." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Now we’re switching that skill-based mindset into what we call [inaudible 33:15] -based or literacy-based mindset. We say we don’t predict how the tech world will look like 12 years in the future. Nobody can do that. Instead, we show the student how to think in a way that’s autonomous, that you can do critical thinking and find resources yourself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can communicate, interact with people with very different cultural views and training, and the common good, not using people as means but really listening deeply to people with different cultures and find common values." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We think that if the children growing, learning, those three things are important as a human, then they won’t suffer a loss of dignity when any part of the skill gets automated by AI, which will happen very quickly. If you over-identify with particular tech skills, then when that gets automated, you suffer a loss of dignity. That’s a very different perspective of our education. We’re rolling it out next year." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "It’s learning how to learn, and unlearn, and re-learn, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Also, learning for the sake of the betterment of the community, instead of learning for competition on individual basis, which is outdated now with artificial intelligence." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Because the artificial intelligence can always do better than you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, like [inaudible 34:30] ." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "I want to see if I’ve missed any of my questions here. With social enterprises, how do you get things like non-profits to start thinking more digitally in order to create that ecosystem? A lot of them are underfunded, not funded, or they’re continually in flux. How do you get them to start more digitally and more into the future?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually, it’s from a communication perspective. The older NGOs in Taiwan, they have a lot of legitimacy and respect from the community, because they started in the ’80s where the martial law was lifted, but we still didn’t have a presidential election, which wouldn’t happen until ’96. They have around a decade of legitimacy buildup." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The older charities, the older non-profits and NGOs, if they go to a, for example, earthquake area and report a number, and administration reports another number, most people will believe the charity, not the administration. This is just the fact in Taiwan, because they have a longer time to build legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What they found challenging is that they need to stay relevant to young people. They need to stay relevant to people who learn design thinking, data science and things like that, and find their missions fun and interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The young people value community voluntary contribution also, but they do it in a collaborative way, whereas the older NGOs in the older, paper-based workflows, mostly still work in a hierarchical way. Interesting worldwide, because that was the best technology like 30 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mostly, people bring in young people as communication experts to help them put their message through, to do digital storytelling, to make ways to interact with their constituents more, to bring more power to the people closer to the pain, to relief the social workers and [inaudible 36:41] workers of their chores, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through this, the digitally native generation, learn that they can actually be guides or leaders in the not-for-profit community. Whatever innovations they make, for example, I’ll use one example. Environmental groups in Taiwan, which is highly respected, partnered with the civic tech community to do self-measurement of air quality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re really cheap, like US$100 or less, that you can put on your balcony, school, or whatever, and measure air quality. It doesn’t just do that for yourself, but it uploads to a work space in cloud. It also checks into a distributed ledger, a blockchain, so that it makes sure nobody can change each other’s numbers. It’s immutable. It shows at a glance weather and air pollution level is like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In many other East Asian countries, this would be seen as a threat to the legitimacy of the government." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Because government is not cleaning the air." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s one. The second is that if the government published a different number, then people are going to trust the one that they build themselves, the old NGOs and with the younger people, the civic tech people, they combined have more legitimacy than the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many other East Asian countries, they want to wait until there’s 200 stations, or 2,000 stations in Taiwan’s case. They will just try to poach the person leading the movement into the government or disappear them in other jurisdictions. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, no, we fully embrace the civic tech community. We say this is also a map of the digital divide in Taiwan. Clearly, in the mountains and in the first nations, there’s just not so much citizen scientists around. That’s where we really need to provide broadband as human rights, and provide our own measurement devices. We need to manufacture low-cost, high-precision device for citizen scientists." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We listen to them when they tell us they really want a air quality sensor here to tell the domestic versus the extra-jurisdictional air quality flow, but it’s impossible for citizen scientists to set up a station here." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Government would have to do it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Even with a drone, you can’t stay there all the time." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "At a certain point, it does need to come back and recharge." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. We’re building wind-turbine, clean-energy stations in exactly this place. We agreed to us their protocol and put their measurement devices around the power plant that we’re constructing along the Taiwan Strait, report to the same network, and check and balanced by the distributed ledger." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All this is open innovation without any MOU or whatever. People around the world just downloaded their software from Taiwan and build your own air boxes locally with open hardware. They can, of course, build their own analysis center, but by default, it goes back to Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a pretty good idea of those voluntary associated air quality, water quality, earthquake prevention, disaster relief, metrological data. We have a website called collectiveintelligence.taiwan.go.tw that does cross-sectoral data collection using, for example, the water quality data and contribution from the Taiwan Water Corporation around the flow and pressure of the water pipes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The machine-learning people came forward and devised their algorithm that allows the people to detect new water leakage points in one tenth of the time, compared to when the old masters and apprentices have to tour around Taiwan and listen to the pipes where there were leakages happening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s most boring part of the job. Their life should be spent on creatively devising solutions to deliver better water quality, not hearing and detecting possible leaking points. That is now being automated by AI. New Zealand saw our work around climate change and our water quality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The team that collaborated for three months in what we call Presidential Hackathon to deliver the solution, spent another three months in New Zealand. I think they’re still in Wellington to work with their water company and to solve the water leakage problem, because they now have water shortage because of climate change. It is through this co-creation internationally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also makes good business sense. The environmental agencies doesn’t have to sign on a state-to-state level. It could be just Taiwan Water Corporation or the civic tech with that local accelerator people. When partnership like that happens, it’s almost magical because both sides trust each other with each other’s data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we can develop pretty good business models based on analytics and so on, which then goes back to the fund missions of [inaudible 41:42] and charities that care about the environment in the first place. Here in Taiwan just this November, we passed a law that enables, I think here, it’s called Benefit Corporation or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It enables that purpose-led corporations to declare that their whole purpose is to make something better. That they will reinvest all its earnings to a charity or association that controls the sitting of the board of that corporation. It’s a charity-owned corporation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Infrastructure was not possible before the Company Act changed, but through a multi-stakeholder consultations over the past two years, we agreed that the hybrid model is the best model that Taiwan can put forward to make the charities achieve sustainability economically." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Are you meeting with Scott Brison at all? I know Canada and Taiwan don’t have diplomatic relations, but I was just wondering, are you planning to meet with him at all or any of his staff?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I listened to the minister’s team addressing the FWD50. I think there was another minster who gave a speech of procurement." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Carla Qualtrough?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, in FWD50, but we didn’t have one-on-one conversations." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "What did you think of their speeches?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a interesting story of how accessibility first or inclusion first led to procurement. We totally agree with that in Taiwan, but we haven’t heard the message put so strongly like inclusion before transparency, accountability, and participation. Inclusion has to be the first pillar of the four pillars of open government. This is a new sequence for us. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For us, it’s usually transparency-first, or for some people, participation-first. Inclusivity-first makes a lot of sense, because otherwise, you gradually leave some people behind because of digital gap. It’s only by trusting the people through including them in the procurement process and a co-design process, we can move at the speed of trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The more trust there is, we move faster together. I really welcome the message of inclusivity from Canada. I’ll bring that back to Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Perfect. Is there anything else you’d like to talk about?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "I think we’ve talked about everything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "It’s great. I think I am good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Emily Haws", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Indeed." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "We have my good friend Kamala dialing in. Hey, Kamala." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Hey, hey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, this is Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Hi, Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "It’s super early in the morning for you, hey?" }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "It’s half-nine, so it’s not too bad, but yes, it’s still morning time, definitely. How’s the conference been?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s snowing today. I love the snow." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "It’s a very Canadian welcome." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "All right. Just before we start, just to say that when we’re recording, feel free to take a pause, say something again if you’d rather say it differently. Everything I hope it’s all smooth. You’re recording because your meetings go online. Is that right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. We make a transcript of everything, including talking to journalists and lobbyists, but also all the internal meetings that I chair." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Is it just automatic translation that’s done by machine?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, which is why I use this top-notch microphone because if we use very cheap microphones they don’t auto-transcribe as well. Then we have to have human intervention." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "That’s worth it. OK. We can start. Can you hear Kamala OK?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, of course." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Hello, and welcome to the \"OneTeamGov\" show, a podcast featuring conversations with awesome people doing interesting stuff in the public sector. We appreciate you taking the time to join us and we have an amazing interview we know you’re going to love. My name is Kylie." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "I’m Kamala. Today we’re talking with Minister Audrey Tang, who is the digital minister for Taiwan. Welcome, Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, and thank you for tuning in to OneTeamGov." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Excellent. We are at the Forward 50 Conference here in Ottawa. It’s snowing outside, so we’ve had a typical Canadian welcome. How have your past few days been?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really, really good. For this visit we first stopped by in Toronto and held a two-day workshop -- with people from the Ontario government, the civic tech people in Toronto, Toronto city government, civil society organizations -- on the vTaiwan method and the open government approach that we take in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We chose a topic that’s common to Taiwan and Ontario, which is ride-sharing. Uber, Lift, and taxis, and how we can work with different sectors and make the transportation better in a way that’s more fair and accessible to people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The workshop went really well because we noticed that people sitting next to their kins. The first thing that we did at workshop is to say, \"If you know anyone from your table, you have to move to another table.\" [laughs] It is a very mixed audience in each table." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use dynamic facilitation; we use a lot of digital enablement methodologies to make sure that people are really focused on the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the end of the thing people really said it’s one of the rare moments where they really talk across sectors and cross levels of government and really make their things tick so people see the same value that they all hold despite the different sectors that they are in. That’s, I think, also OneTeamGov." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Absolutely, yes. That was really in line with our principles and our mission for the world of governments. That’s great to hear. In the tech world you’re obviously really well-known for the work you’ve done in the open-source community. Can you tell us a little bit about how that came about?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. In 1996 I was 15 years old, second year in junior high. I discovered this World Wide Web thing where people just put up pre-prints, their research papers on it. I told my teachers that I want to drop out of junior high school because my textbook are all out of date. [laughs] I can just email any author, and they don’t know I’m just 14 or 15 years old and we just start research together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I ran into this Internet society, the Internet Engineering Task Force, and the World Wide Web foundation, and those people who just co-create and make the world free of direct vertical power relationship. It’s entirely a voluntary association. That’s the only political system I know as a 14 years old. [laughs] It would be another six year before I get my voting right in representative democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I started in Internet governance and really contributed to the Perl community, which was the early language to write a website in [laughs] back in 1996." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I started quite a few startups and contributed directly to the Perl language and then later also the Haskell language, which I used to help Larry Wall to rewrite Perl 6, which is now getting a new name called Raku." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Wow. You mentioned that you started a couple of organizations and companies. Can you explain a little more?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. Back in 1996 during the initial dot-com boom, I co-founded a technology company called Inforian that did instant messaging, social networking, online auction -- we were one of the first online auction sites in Taiwan -- and things like that. It went pretty well, got invested by Intel, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We did my first entrepreneurship purely for the fun of it, but then later on I discovered the free software movement and also the responsibility that we have as programmers to ensure a world that is more fair, instead of just doing dot-com stock thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I participated in the initial rephrasing of the free software movement into the open source movement, which is a marketing approach to get large corporations to become, essentially, social enterprises by donating, for example, the Netscape source code, which turned into Firefox, Mozilla, and stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I really enjoyed working in the open source community with the aim towards software freedom, because to me it really bridges the two worlds. It is not \"enterprise for profits\" versus \"freedom and human right\". It is enabling people to work with a solid, sustainable business model, but also enables people to work full time on open sourcing and on open contributions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We really bootstrapped that ecosystem back around the turn of the century in Taiwan, and I founded quite a few social enterprises toward that period. Finally, we landed on what we call OpenFoundry, which is a state-sponsored open source collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a kind of pre-GitHub. Then we developed a lot of distributed version control systems to enable cool requests like workflows." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I did the Perl 6 implementation called Pugs, I did this thing called radical trust, where anyone who complained anything about our language, about our way of implementing the language automatically got a commit bit, meaning that they can write directly to the repository." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We were handing out commit bits like crazy, to the creator of Python, to people’s newborn babies. Things like that. It’s pure anarchy, and it really, really works, because we say we move at the speed of trust, and we have to optimize for fun because it’s a decade-long project. If we don’t optimize for fun, we don’t sustain ourselves very long." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Optimize for fun. I think I should make that into a standard of excellence. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s written -Ofun. It is actually a meme. We put it on T-shirts and stuff." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Perfect. I’ll have to get one. You mentioned fun and having this amazing time working across lots of different organizations and open source. You lived a lot of people’s dream in retiring from private sector at the age of 33. How did you make that decision?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I became financially independent. I worked in quite a few open source organizations that later turned into social enterprises. One of them is Socialtext, which is a bunch of early Perl hackers that tries to sell wikis and social media into the enterprise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t call ourselves social enterprise, though, we call ourselves Enterprise Social, [laughs] which is the way to manage large, siloed companies, but getting everybody on nowadays what we call a Slack channel, but we’re before Slack, to get people to share their organizational wisdom on the internal chat rooms, internal collaborative spreadsheets, wikis, and things like that, and basically make the silos more horizontal in the process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re the wiki company. Once we get acquired by Peoplefluent, which is one of the largest HR companies, I stayed for the company for another couple of years training new people, and retire from the private sector to work full time on public good, and especially on the gov zero (g0v) movement, which was just starting around 2012. I joined in 2013." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The gov zero movement, very simply put, is a domain name called g0v.tw. If you see any public service that you don’t like, which all end in gov.tw, you can change the O to a zero and get into the shadow government, which is built by the civic tech people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have to Google for it. You just use whatever the government service is and change the O to a zero to get into the interactive, open data, much more fun version of government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The best thing about this forking the government movement is that it is entirely a meme. Last week budget.g0v.it gets formed. We have gov zero Italy now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is just a domain name. We don’t hold a patent or anything on it. People just created visualizations of budgets, visualization of environment and so on, and relinquish of copyright, so by the next procurement cycle, the government, if they really like the idea, it just becomes the government website." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "That sounds so cool. I wonder if that’s the case for gov.uk? I wonder if there’s a shadow version of that? We should try it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, please do, please do." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Since then, you’ve joined the Taiwanese government and you’ve become one of Taiwan’s youngest ministers at the age of 36. Have you spotted any major differences in terms of a generational gap?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, because we are, really, the first generation that can actually do democracy. Taiwan was under military rule until 1987. After lifting of the martial law and the first presidential election, in 1996, which coincides with the popularization of the World Wide Web, we’re the first generation that can do democracy. We’re the first generation that are digital natives." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In many older republics, the people who were interested in public demonstration and democracy is one kind of people. People who are into design and digital is another kind of people. In Taiwan, it’s the same generation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We really get a lot of leeway in experimenting because, for us, direct democracy, deliberative democracy, representative democracy, they’re all just 20 years old. We don’t have 200 years of parliamentary tradition to try with, so we try with a lot of hybrid forms of democracy because we started, I think, relatively early. You can find it in Estonia, and to a lesser degree, in Spain, also." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Touching on that transition from military rule to democracy, which happened recently, as you were saying, we read that you were heavily involved in the Sunflower movement in Taiwan, which has obviously had a massive impact in the direction of Taiwan. Can you tell us some stories about what that was like?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, certainly. That was in 2014, March, and around that time, parliament was refusing to deliberate substantially the so-called Cross-Strait Service and Trade Agreement, or CSSTA, because of some obscure constitutional reasons and because the MPs were on strike, so people just occupied the parliament and did the work for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s the legitimacy theory, anyway. We always insist that it was a demonstration and not a protest. It’s a demonstration in the sense of demo, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We demonstrate to the MPs, if you have a service trade agreement and you have 20 NGOs, each deliberating from one different angle -- from labor, from environment, things like that -- you can occupy the parliament and have one NGO in each corner of the occupied parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v people are neutral, providing communication and real-time transcript of everything and live stream feeds and things like that. Half a million people on the street can actually coalesce into more convergent positions by every day repeating, what have we agreed in the previous day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can enter through the g0v tools, your company name, or the trade they’re in, and see exactly how does this service and trade agreement affects them. It’s evidence-based conversation around 20 different angles of this society. Every day, we inch toward consensus a little bit more, so by the end of three weeks, we have five consensus points." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re solidified. We know that is the people’s will. The head of parliament actually accepted it. The victory was in occupiers and people see for the first time that you can really do collaborative governance, and how the Internet’s way of gaining legitimacy, which is by radical transparency, actually translates into everyday life, as well." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "That was incredible because I remember, back in, around that time, there was the occupy movement. One of the things people kept on saying was what do you want? There was this pro-narrative about not being able to come up with substantive demands. It’s really cool you managed to land on those five and have them accepted. That’s an amazing story." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Your ministry has helped come up with Taiwan’s eight-year digital nation plan. Can you tell us something that you’re particularly excited to see delivered as part of that eight-year plan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll start with something really, really simple, which is broadband as a human right. It was Dr. Tsai Ing-wen’s presidential promise, so anywhere in Taiwan, be it indigenous or rural or faraway islands, if you don’t have 10 megabits per second, it’s my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the foundation of everything because if you have broadband as a human right, you can build the new curriculum that emphasizes learning that could be by distance learning. It could be by AI-assisted learning. It could be by personal AI that you just grow, co-evolve, with the students." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can design curriculums that are fully interactive. You can have teleworking workforces and so on. If you don’t have broadband as a human right, you leave part of your people behind. I would just start with this really simple thing, which is broadband, and access is a human right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they, in some rural and indigenous places, don’t have tablets and so on, we also have library programs that provide them for free. We renew that every three years. We start with something really simple like that and we just deliver it this year." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "One of the things that we’re really interested in on the OneTeamGov podcast is about differences in digital economies across the world. Do you think there are any unique challenges that Taiwan faces in terms of digital and technology?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, just this year, we passed the Indigenous Transitional Justice Act, and then, the Hakka Act, and in a couple of months, the National Languages Act. We used to have one national language. Very soon, we’ll have 22 national languages, including the Taiwan sign language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The act basically says if you want to learn about astronomy in Sakilaya, the education system needs to deliver that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is something that’s very core to the heart of many Taiwanese people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re in an East Asian culture circle, but we’re also -- at the east side of Taiwan -- 16 indigenous nations, and so we’re all part of the Austronesian Pacific island culture as well. Both are Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s important in our truth and reconciliation process that we have, for example, the open government participation officers training material, which is a comic that is also available in a first nation language, which is also the tribe of our administrative spokesperson." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think one of the unique challenges is how can we make digital respond to the real needs of people who get included as first-class citizens and not someone who is, so-called vulnerable, so-called disadvantaged? We can just turn the wisdom into digital and have digital to be in service of social innovation, not the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve devised a lot of unique ways, for example, the sandbox system, that allows anyone to pinpoint a social need and break the rule, or even law, for a year, for people to see that it really is making a societal impact, net positive, and for us to merge it back into the regulation and a law system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re doing a lot of innovation around the need of both truth and reconciliation. Just the simple fact that we now have to consider the augmented intelligence and self-driving vehicles as members of this society and we need to be inclusive of them, too." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "That is an insight into inclusion that I never would have expected to get from this. That is so fascinating. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "You’re the first digital minister and you’re one of the first young ministers and the first post-gender minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Do you think it gives you any different insights to be first all the time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think having gone through two puberties does enable my mind to empathize better with people’s experiences. After dropping out of junior high, I also spent quite some time in the indigenous lands, in the first nations of Atayal. I think that also enables me to see post-gender in a way that is very different from the mainstream, Western world binary system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In many first nations in Taiwan, it’s not just a third gender. It’s also the gender irrelevance a part of it. I think these cultural backgrounds really lets me see the world through the lens of different cultural backgrounds of people and also enables me just to sympathize and empathize with rivers and animals, who cannot vote but can, now, talk through the voices of, for example, the so-called Internet of Things, which would turn it into the" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Internet of Beings and enable us to empathize with, say, a river. In New Zealand, part of the Maori culture, they give their river a personhood, so they can sit on a board. Of course, someone from the crown and someone from the Maori stand as speakers for the river." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can speak for the river because the river speaks through the sensors network that makes people visualize and, in a gut feeling, know that the river is being harmed because of some actions being done in a way that has externalities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think digital also enables us to listen to pluralities for, even, non-human beings. That’s also a big part, reconciling our more Western worldview with the indigenous worldview." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "One of the other experiences you mentioned earlier was that you identify as an anarchist." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Conservative anarchist." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Conservative anarchist, OK. That’s not something that we typically associate with being in government. How do you reconcile those two worlds?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sort of at a Lagrange point between the civil society and the government system. I always say I work with the cabinet, but I don’t work for the cabinet. I work with the people and not for the people, so that’s the Lagrange point." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why is that my mandate is crowdsourced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in 2016, September, when I get the appointment of being the digital minister, I was still working with, not for, Apple, at the time and I gave them a 30-day notice. During that 30 days, I basically did a \"Ask me anything,\" publicly on a platform called Wiselike." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can ask me questions, including journalists and/or foreign counterparts, but I only answer publicly. When I make any answer, it’s sent to the inbox to thousands of people, so they can ask follow-up questions. After one month of public consultation, we settled on three main things that people really want me to hold as a compact, not a contract, with the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The three things are -- voluntary association, meaning I give no orders. I take no orders. Location independence, so I can be anywhere, and my staff can be anywhere, but we’re still working, teleworking, location independence. Finally, radical transparency. Anything I can see, I can publish for the public interest." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, as a natural consequence, I cannot be a part of any national secret or national confidential information. If they take a military drill, I just take a day off. I still don’t know where the bunkers are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, any meeting that I chair, I get to publish radically transparent transcripts after 10 days of editing if it’s a journalist, or 10 working days if it’s public service. The nuance here is very important because it enables people to see the why of policy making, not just the what of the delivery and enables the credit to be shared with the career public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, the deal was pretty bad. If you get something right, your minister gets the credit. If you do something wrong, the minister blames you. Innovation is hard to happen without radical transparency, especially across silos. Now, with radical transparency, it’s the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If by responding to people’s needs, the career public service hits on some really innovative idea, people see it right away after 10 working days, even if the minister says, \"No, afterwards.\" The people can pick up and run it through social enterprises or civic tech. If it doesn’t work out, then the digital minister takes all the blame because I’m the only minister doing this anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this kind of way, we enable the public service to innovate in a way that reduces the risk of everybody. I think that is at the core of my theory of a change, which is making sure that a career public service can always say, \"We try something really crazy and it fails, it’s Audrey’s fault.\"" }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Related to that, one of the things we hear over and over again on the OneTeamGov show is about problems with hierarchies and silos in government and how it produces a lot of drag and problems. How is the work that you’re doing with radical transparency helping to break those hierarchies? Do you have anything else that you’re doing that you could share with our listeners?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, certainly. When I joined the cabinet, my staff is uniquely composed of, at most, one person from each ministry. We have 34 vertical ministries, 34 vertical ministers, and one of the eight horizontal ministers, meaning that we’re kind of above and coordinating the other vertical ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I talk to a secretary general saying, \"I’m going to ask for volunteers from all 34 ministries to join my staff,\" but because so many people want to join my office, I only poach one person at most from each ministry. Technically, I can have 34 staff. At the moment, it’s 22 people, each coming from very different backgrounds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each ministry is one different value. So many different values, but nobody dominating one another. Today, their salary is still being paid by their ministry. They still work toward their minister’s agenda. What I do is provide a safe space for people to propose things and to talk in a way that’s what we call working out loud, meaning that every day, we have stand up meetings. We have a weekend board." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a system called Sandstorm.io, that is cybersecurity hardened platform that enables us to run any app written by the public service, for the public service. Basically, all the 34 ministers people get to propose ideas that are good for not just their minister but other ministers, as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If people decide it’s a good thing, then I absorb the risk. I talk to their ministers and I make things happen. I share the credit back with their ministers. If it doesn’t work out, there’s no harm done because this is just one of the sandboxes within the cabinet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re like Policy Lab in the UK but operates in a way that has much more political mandate to try true cross-ministerial things, not just design and consultation, but all the way to delivery." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "That sounds like an incredibly fun team to work in. I’d love to. Some more fun stuff now. We read that you enjoy troll hugging." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "What is that? How do you do it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s my hobby. Trolls are people who crave attention because they don’t get sufficient hugs and kisses from the physical world. They crave attention by upsetting people on the Internet. The way that I do troll hugging is that if people mention my name on social media in a way that tries to raise my attention, I only respond to the parts that are authentic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Say they post 100 words that are all ad hominem attacks and just five words of which can be construed as constructive, then I just reply, carefully, to those five words. It has two effects. The first, it teaches people that it’s possible to have long-term, relational conversations because trolls previously only had transactional conversations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They upset people. People get upset. They get attention. It’s like junk food. Because it’s not relational, they wake up the next morning still feeling very empty and troll some other people. Because I very carefully reply to the part that is authentic to their experience, they learn that only by responding authentically do they get a minister’s attention." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, they get to have a real dialogue and relationship with me. I also invite them to the social innovation lab, which is my office hours, every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. Anyone can come and visit me, provided they agree to have a transcript published online, they can just come and have a talk and give me a hug." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, I just attract the trolls to review their authentic selves and just come to a social innovation lab and we can co-create something." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "How many of them actually do that, come to your office hours?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think half of them actually reform and half of them find it’s not fun anymore and they troll some other people, so the success rate is around 50 percent." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Speaking of Twitter, perhaps not one of your troll friends but we ask everyone that we speak to, to help recommend some things for our listeners. Could you start us off with a Twitter account that we could follow?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "@OneTeamGov. [laughs] Yay, that’s an easy one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, we have a @TaiwanPDIS account that we’re not using very much because, so far, I’ve just been tweeting with my own handle, @audreyt and all our staff members are tweeting under their own handle, also." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re thinking of reactivating the @TaiwanPDIS account. PDIS stands for Public Digital Innovation Space. If you can follow @TaiwanPDIS, we’ll figure out something together." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Great. What about a podcast?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OneTeamGov, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s another easy one. No, I actually don’t follow that much podcasts, to be very honest. I attended the Rebel Cities podcast where they tried to build horizontal municipalism. They seemed like a pretty decent podcast but that’s only if you believe in municipalism and want to join the rebel cities." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Maybe quite a niche podcast there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "A book?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A book? My favorite book is \"Finnegans Wake,\" but I don’t recommend that to people. It’s such a time consumer." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Recently, there’s a pretty good book called, \"New Power.\" It’s very accessible. It explains the way the horizontal power works as a method but also explains the horizontal power as a value. The value and the method don’t always go together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s some people with very old power, vertical values, but using new power methodologies to paint things and to make things happen. There’s also people using very old ways to cheerlead the new values of horizontalism. I think the book, New Power, really explains this kind of message really well and it has a lot of examples." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Great. Finally, a charity or an enterprise social that you could recommend?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "\"Enterprise social\" was my private sector work. I’m working on \"Social enterprise\" now, like companies with a clear mission." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m going to recommend Mozilla Corporation. Mozilla Corporation, we closely partner with them to deliver the indigenous languages automatic translation, voice recognition, and so on through the Common Voice Project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After returning to Taiwan, next week, actually, I’m going to read aloud two hours of corpus into the Common Voice so that people can recognize that it’s possible to donate different accents to different dialects, different languages of Taiwan and have the AI system not forcing anyone to speak perfect Mandarin or perfect Hakka or perfect Holog." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And still be able to converse in their native way with the AI-assisted speech system. Everything is donated in the Creative Common Zero, which means that it’s in the public domain. Everybody can use it, including the Alexas and Siris of the world. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s a good innovation, and it’s brainstormed and designed in Taiwan. I’m very proud that Mozilla Corporation can work with Taiwan in this way. All the earnings of that corporation goes back to the Mozilla Foundation anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a good structure of a hybrid charity mission-led social enterprise that we can say the open source world actually reconciles with the social entrepreneurship world. We have a working example, an international recognizable brand at that." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Awesome. Audrey, we’ve heard some fantastic stories. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Go on, Kamala." }, { "speaker": "Kamala Hamilton Brown", "speech": "No, I was going to say, amazing, awesome story." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, cool. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Kylie Havelock", "speech": "Thank you. Thanks, Kamala. See you soon." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "I know you’re very busy. This trip is possibly ongoing, so thank you very much for your time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s my work, and I really enjoy working with people who care about sustainability." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "If I can ask you, for starters, have you been to Canada before?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, I was actually in Toronto about 12 years ago working on a new computer language with a lot of friends." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "What about Vancouver? I know Vancouver’s tech community is not as big, but have you had a chance to go to Vancouver?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, this is my first time, literally my first day." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "First day in Vancouver. How are you finding the reactions from the friends here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, it’s really positive that Taiwanese people here as well as the people who support our mission really align with the value that we’re bringing to the table, because this Blueseeds is about three things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s about working with indigenous people in a fair way that represents their art, their culture internationally, so it’s indigenous. The second thing is the environmental friendliness and the regrowth of their land’s potential, and the third thing is it’s economically viable. It is actually a pretty good business to do the socio-environmental good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This idea, what we call triple bottom line, I find that this is one of the most important goals in human’s history, if I may. That’s all the different nations united together agree that we have to reach these goals together by 2030." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Canada being one of the signatories of the 2030 UN Agenda I think has a lot to offer Taiwan in terms of how to develop a good robust social enterprise, social innovation, and social financing model. Taiwan can also share our experience in working with indigenous people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our spokesperson now is Amis, is of the First Nations. Even our President, on her grandmother’s side, is also of Paiwan Nation heritage, so our way of truth and reconciliation also has a lot of resonance with the Canadian experience." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "How do you know that the model’s working? Is there a way of judging how successful a social enterprise is in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, definitely. Previously, social enterprises in Taiwan mostly gets procured or bought by the CSR, the Corporate Social Responsibility, so any listed company have to declare publicly what kind of social or environmental good they’re doing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s usually a fraction of their total earning or revenue. Then we measured what we call buying power, which was how exactly do large corporations procure the services or products with a clear, sustainable development goals attached to it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we found is year by year, more and more procurement moved to the supply chain side of things, meaning that it enters their supply chain. It could be people with autism entering the quality assurance part of a technology company. It could be people with disabilities in mobility partaking in buildings information modeling." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "More and more the large corporations are seeing the social enterprises as a natural partner in their supply chain, instead of just in CSR procurement. This is the first year actually that we see the supply chain buying is more than the CSR. That means that it’s really integrating into international economy instead of as a kind of afterthought." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "This is the effect of the companies. As the companies grow, they become better representatives of society with their work towards diversity within the workforce, so that naturally becomes heart of the business. When they do good business, it doesn’t just make sense socially, it makes sense financially, because that’s what the company is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, it’s the idea that inclusion drives innovation. If you include people who are neurodiverse in your team, you actually get honest, fresh perspective, or like people with Down Syndrome. They see the world with a dramatically very different way as we do, so the art they make is very unique." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We think them as not as vulnerable people, but as valuable and unique contributors. The total economy grows because of them." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Can you talk a little bit about your choice of Canada and Vancouver, specifically Vancouver and Toronto. Why did you choose this location to say, \"This is a good chance for us to talk about social enterprises.\" Is there something about Canada as a market that made you choose it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. Canada has the Buy Social program that was introduced to Taiwan by David LePage. David LePage is one of the people in the Canadian consultation that I think just completed this year in its fresh edition about the way forward for the social innovation and social financing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I learned a lot when David visited Taiwan and introduced this idea of inclusive innovation. Around the time when he visited, that was in late 2016, I think, Taiwan was working on our industrial innovation plan. David said, \"You know, if you want to be truly inclusive, it cannot be just industry that innovates. The society has also to innovate.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He brought this idea of co-creation as part of the Steering Group to Taiwan, and so I learned a lot from Canada. This trip for me is apply what we have learned, and we figured out quite a few things especially around the regulatory co-creation and indigenous relations that we also want to bring back to Canada as open innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We learn something, we build on it, and now we want to share the fruit of our learnings as well, and so it’s because of heritage that we inherited the Canadian model of Buy Social, of buying power, of the cross-sectoral co-creation Steering Group and we now are giving back to Canada." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Aboriginal issues here is a very big issue. We had a big incident here last year in terms of people opposing a pipeline coming through here, and a lot of the opposition came from the Aboriginal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Elders." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "It came from the Elders. They don’t want the pipeline to go though. What can Taiwan offer from its experience from dealing with Aboriginals and benefit economically business-wise that Canada can learn from. Is there something that we can learn from?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, definitely. We say \"indigenous people\". We changed the name of the council from \"aboriginal\" to \"indigenous people\". Our First Nations, of which there are 16, are very diverse both in terms of culture, of the Austronesian culture, as well as in the model that they operate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the most important things is that the agenda must be set by the Elders in a way that it’s First Nation first, so it’s not we, the government trying to impose anything, but rather we... As I said, I tour around Taiwan and visit indigenous communities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally, when I dropped out of junior high school when I was 14 years old, I lived in the Atayal indigenous community, and so I learned from their ways of seeing the world. Also, when I tour around Taiwan, I make sure that I’m there with them, personally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So the minister is always with the local people. The various ministries, the public service may be in Taipei, but they always see through my eyes how people live here. Previously, in the last century, the so-called consultation model with Aboriginals is usually they sending one or three representatives to Taipei, and that lose the context of their conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through digital technology, through broadband as a human right, through our Digital Opportunity Centers, this has a massive effect of not representing the indigenous people. Through digital technology representing their habitats, their views, their wisdom to Taipei, but they can remain in the place that they’re most comfortable with and let the nature and the spirits speak through them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a lot to learn of how the rivers, the animals become alive in their world view, and we’re just reckoning this fact. It’s the same as the New Zealand people, where they made a river a legal person that can sit in through the board of a company." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The river can -- through representing the level of pollution, the level of sustainability -- suffer damage if someone harms the river as a legal person. We have a lot to learn from that world view as well in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We would also like to share our model of regional innovation that allows every nation to essentially make its own home rule an experiment for a year to see, for example, a blockchain-based, distributed ledger-based local economy identity, whether it’s a good fit. It’s always done by innovators throughout the nation instead of being imposed by central administration." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "I know you’re a big proponent of non-traditional educational means. People learn through life, not necessarily best learning through the traditional school system structures and things of that nature." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Do you think that is reflected in your work on this field, the fact that looking outside the box, looking outside of the traditional learning processes that institutions and governments have set up, it’s important to really resolve issues going forward?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Experimental Education Act of Taiwan, for the past decade or so, we’re one of the most -- I think the most -- open to experiment education system in our region and in the world. Up to 10 percent of the students in Taiwan can choose to be home-schooled or alternative schooled, so it’s not just me. It’s up to 10 percent of the total student population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we have learned is that, as time goes to the full automated world, people, instead of learning skills or particular competitiveness along particular tracks, they’re now more and more learning about the internal characters." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The character you’ve mentioned about autonomy, about thinking out of the box, but also about interaction and communication of being able to talk with people with a different culture and a different discipline and then of common good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of seeing, for example, the First Nations or the other people in the world having different values, but still having the capability of finding common values for a common good. These three, autonomy, interaction, and the common good become the core characteristics of not just alternative education but starting next year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because before joining the cabinet two years ago, I was part of the K-12, our basic curriculum committee. Starting next September, we’re rolling it out country-wide." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the first graders in primary school, in junior high and senior high is going to switch from a model where they overidentified with competition in particular skills to where only the characters matter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Capstone projects, the university social responsibility programs allow them to experiment with their local community and solve a real social and/or environmental problem as part of their learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this, they identify with the community just as they’re starting to learn skills, so they don’t overidentify with the score of the skills. When automation comes and takes that skill away, by AI or whatever, there’s no loss of dignity, because they know that these automated skills are just there to further the community’s mission." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they, in the previous bad old days overidentified with particular skillsets, when that gets automated, they suffer a loss of dignity. In an AI-first world, this is not just for home schoolers or experimental school. It’s for everybody, and that’s what our new curriculum reflects." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Going back with the social enterprise model, our experience here is that things like solar power and things like something that benefits the community in the past usually costs a little bit more. I’ve talked to Blueseeds, and they’ve said their products do cost a little bit more than conventional large conglomerate manufactured goods." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Do you think that consumers are willing to pay a little bit more, or companies are willing to pay a little bit more, for goods that are beneficial to society and beneficial to the environment? What’s your opinion on that? Are consumers willing to pay...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t need opinion, we have a evidence-based survey. Every year, the Development Bank of Singapore, the DBS, as well as the Vision Project of the UDN Media Group in Taiwan asks people around Taiwan: \"Are you willing to pay more for products or services with a clearly evidence-based, better socio-environmental value?\", and year after year we see this growing. This is actually last year’s number, but by this year it’s more than 80 percent now." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "This is in Taiwan, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is Taiwan of course, but of course, we have some way to go in Taiwan also, because when they ask people on the street, \"Can you name one sustainable business model, then only one-fifth of people can actually name a social enterprise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This year we also see it growing, partly because FamilyMart partnered with Blueseeds, so now some Taiwanese people can just say, \"Blueseeds, they’re one of the social enterprises.\" People in Taiwan are really willing to both pay more to do impact investment, to do venture philanthropy, and to choose with their wallet." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "What about here? With you setting up office here, the ideas also introduce a little bit of this Taiwanese warm power, so to speak, this social enterprise model to this North American market. Do you have any indication that consumers here are willing to pay more for socially responsible, socially beneficial goods?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I only have what David LePage and the steering committee tells me, right?" }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They tell me that if there is a clear evidence to back it up that people can see the whole story, that there’s accountability trail, then yes, people are willing to pay more. If it is just a label, but there’s no story and there’s no evidence behind it, then people here maybe are still new to this idea, and they will want to know more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the most important things is a clear communication of the social impact and environmental impact. In that we can also work with Canada to establish a value-based mode to assess what a social enterprise has actually done for the past year, and for the society." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "It’s not just a sticker on a product that says \"social enterprise.\" You need to let people understand exactly what you’re doing to society by buying this product." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s what we call the impact assessment." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Moving forward, how would you judge this visit as a success? You have a milestone or what you like to achieve either through Blueseeds or other Taiwanese companies here in Canada, here in North America? Is there something that you’d like in a year’s time, two years’ time, five years’ time?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Definitely. In Taiwan, the concept called reconciliation with indigenous people, we measure how many people are aware of it, and how many people recognize it as important, so these are the important metrics for us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I said, social entrepreneurship and people’s willingness to identify with it, but also be able to tell one particular story that they still remember. These are the key metrics that we measure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In my trip to Canada, which is why I wear this T-shirt of sustainable development goals, I want to measure and also see how Canadian people see the SDGs, not just sustainability. As a concept it’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure people here feel sustainability is great, but particular goals like life on land, life below water, like plastic waste, all these 169 goals, if more and more people can identify, as I do, of their work in conjunction with sustainable development goals and can say, as I usually do..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of my talk, I always say, \"OK, as the Digital Minister, I work on the goal1718, reliable data, 1717, cross-sectoral partnerships, 1706, open innovation. If more and more people can say with explicit numbering the work they’re doing toward the sustainable goals, then that counts as a success to me." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "A lot of this success, by the sounds of it, it sounds like transparency is the main thing, the fact that people have to know what processes...A lot of this is education and communications like you said." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s four pillars of the work that I do in open government that I’m aware that next year, Canada is going to host the summit for the open government partnership, the OGP." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Canadian people, of course, place a lot of emphasis on inclusion, so it’s not just transparency, it’s also not leaving anybody behind so that everybody can participate into the transparent and accountable framework, not just people who are particularly good at computer programming, at data analysis or at legal analysis or impact investment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These people are already onboard, but we also need everybody to be able to tell the difference of a process of they’ve looked into a product or a service, know exactly where it came from. They know the story of origin, they can participate and check the verifiability of it and just be included into the process. This also is very important." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Your background in computer languages, did this contribute to your thinking, your ideology behind this? How did you experience in terms of working in a globalized computer language co-forming community? How did this inform your theories and your practices in terms of leading this effort?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back when I worked in a computer language called Perl 6, which is now also called Raku. The language is explicitly a humble language. In traditional computer language there’s different schools of programming. There is the functional school of programming that sees programs as mathematics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s this object-oriented school of programming that sees programming as coordinating like orchestrating interaction between objects, and there is the imperative programming, which sees a program as commanding the computer to do things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s other schools as well, but in Prosix our slogan is to reconcile the irreconcilable, to let the programmer choose object-oriented, imperative, or functional world view in the same program in a way that still makes sense for people in very different world views." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Having worked in that particular world-building methodology, it enables me to say, \"I’m a language designer, but I’m really just designing for possibilities. I’m not imposing my world view on the programmers using this language and allowing themselves to express however they want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s more than one way to do it, but also let people with a different world view to see their work in their modality as well, and this is exactly the world view that is taken by the sustainable development goals. You can be a major in economy and business, you can be a major in environmental protection, you can be a major in the social justice, but still all your works reinforces each other." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Canadian language does not mean only a language. A language belongs to everyone who uses it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Going forward, are you going to be talking with the Blueseeds to track how successful the Canadian reception to this is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. We require all the social enterprises in Taiwan to clearly not just identify with particular sustainable goals, but report yearly on how they have achieved and how they oversee branches and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is actually how the accountability is built. It’s not reporting to government, it’s reporting to everybody around the world publicly on the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s why we just passed this November the New Company Act that allows companies like Blueseeds to declare their socio-environmental mission in their company’s founding documents and disclose it on the Minister of Economic Affairs website for the whole world to see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is also what the other jurisdictions are doing, through a structure like Benefit corporation and things like that, they enable corporations to identify exactly how much they contribute to the triple bottom line." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Last thing, Audrey, I was wondering if there’s one thing you can tell the Canadian leaders, because a lot of Canadian businesses are interested in social enterprises, but they can’t attend today. If there’s one thing you can tell Canadian people, Canadian companies, in general, about the message you want to bring, what is it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The message is very simple that we use to think in silos of public sector, private sector, and social sector. Now, sustainable development is about cross-sectoral partnership." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whatever sector you are on, please think outside of the box of the predefined sectors and work with the other two sectors in order to create a brighter future. If you’re interested in how, please read Inclusive Innovation, the recommendations of Social Innovation Co-Creation Steering Group of Canada." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Do you mind if I take a quick photo of you for the...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all." }, { "speaker": "Chuck Chiang", "speech": "Thank you very much for your time." } ]

[ { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "10月19日及11月1日都有請相關部會來討論，解決了其中兩項議題，包含了台中市公民焚化爐設立可行性評估、台中林業用地相關訴求，會議紀錄有附在會議議程後面，尚待討論的議題就列入今天的報告案，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "胡貝蒂", "speech": "我補充一下，說「解決」的意思，是至少問題有人領養了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少有具體回應、知道是誰的後續。看大家還有沒有要補充的？我們是不是進討論？" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「討論事項案由一，合作社理念之價值培育具體做法，提請討論內政部、教育部」，這裡面涉及兩個小項，第一個是大學社會責任USR計畫，將合作社需求導入及發展地方創生目標；第二項是學校園生消費合作社的經營，是不是可以再請教育部這邊再來協助，讓他經營得更好，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這邊特別是講USR，不牽涉到高教深耕別的部分，就是USR計畫？以我的理解，是已經有一些是跟在地的合作社一起來做的，我們現在只是看是不是有可能不管是在規劃、宣傳或者是其他部分，看能不能更擴大這一個部分；第二個部分，應該是國教階段，但是好像也有一些大學有員生消費合作社，但是這應該是以國教階段為主，所以這兩個可能是在教育部裡面是不同的權責單位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先問一下內政部朋友。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "謝謝政委對這一個議題的關注，員生社的部分我想牽涉到兩個議題，一個是案由合作社理念價值培育的部分，另外一個是經營碰到的困難，價值培育的部分，我想第一個問題還是在於價值培育，大家不理解什麼是合作社，所以我們期待如果在整個社會創新的這個方案裡面，我們如何去做價值培育的部分？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我們很期待看看教育部是否可行，在學校裡面的員生消費合作社，事實上是必須要學校支持、教育主管機關支持，校長、主任及老師不理解什麼是合作社的時候，其實很難做，所以我們碰到的現象是，學校老師會說「不願意做」，不願意做是一個現象，但是事實上是背後的原因有很多，當然一個是整個體制上沒有被支持，另外一個是經濟規模如何操作的問題，所以我們比較期待的是，看有沒有機會在校長、主任及老師培育的過程中有這樣價值培育的課程，讓他們理解這個是什麼，因為如果不理解的時候，老是做起來很沒有價值，就是在賣賣東西，如果賣賣東西的時候，那完全失去了價值，做這一件事不願意付出，因此不願意做這一件事，其他的就遑論了，因此，我們期待這一個價值培育的部分。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "案由是價值培育的部分，要謝謝中小企業處花了很多心力跟部會協調，我們在協調的過程中碰到一個困難，也是大家不理解什麼是合作社，所以好像對焦對不起來，因為當作是一個既定所知道的企業組織或者是公司組織，又或者是什麼樣是不知道的。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "但是事實上這個是組織的類型，有其特殊性跟特質，而這個特質是不是在大家不理解的狀況下就很難對話，因此我們也很期待部會是不是也有機會做這樣的價值培育工作，如果全部很難，事實上碰到比較大的困難是勞動部跟衛福部的部分，比較少的部分有這樣的建議，可不可以有這樣的價值培育的認識，我覺得可以先從觀念上溝通，依序展開可能比較容易做下面的事，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。我聽到第一個是既有的學校體系，主要的還是校長、主任等等，讓他們理解其價值，當然第二個是講說對於相關的各部會理解其價值，這兩個是具體的建議，剛才有談到關於高教的部分（USR），合團司有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "高教的部分我們比較配合教育部的部分，但是教育部可能要做社會責任的培育，我們提出的需求可能合作社在這個成立及前面階段需要什麼樣專業的協助，我們也會把需求提出來，但是是到時媒合的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，我想我們一個一個處理。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "教育部技職司今天提供書面意見，但是人沒有到現場，我先把他們提供的書面意見先唸一次，有關於內政部希望提出USR計畫，能夠協助在地社區成立合作社一事，本部原則同意，而須請內政部盤點出全國社區合作分布，經營重點有協助事項，再由各大專校院評估自身能量、專業，適時提供協助。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "USR計畫的重點是以人才培育為核心，並不是以成立合作社為主要的目的，大專校院事實協助在地社區成立合作社，為合作社成立後之營運及永續經營，須投入人力與資源，非由學校接手經營，以上是技職司提供的書面意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "書面意見是不是可以先拿給我們？謝謝。技職司的講法是很正確的，USR我也理解到現在在各個行政院的計畫裡面，常常都會希望他們做一些比較接近維運的事情，這個跟高教宗旨有違，高教比較是動腦的部分，是幫助整個社會怎麼樣找到新的合作方法，大學教授們動腦找出來之後，真的實際下去經營合作，辦法是沒有辦法加諸回教授們身上，如果有那樣做的話，我覺得也跟USR的原意也不太一樣，北部跟南部的USR都有去，所以其實他們都有抱怨一下，在這邊稍微提一下，我想這個是滿好的具體建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一方面USR本身也會盤點，我當時是跟老師提出來說是不是直接用17項聯合國永續發展目標，就是穿在這身上17項的大類，不一定要分到很細項，但是把現有USR關心哪一些題目，一個是大的主目標、幾個副目標怎麼樣，等於自己先稍微盤點一下，如果我們合作社這一邊也可以有類似的盤點，因為以我的理解，像勞動合作社要做的事跟消費合作社也都很不一樣，所以我們兩邊先分別用這樣的方式來作盤點，對齊會變成一件很容易的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果一開始分類就用不同的分類，其實盤點完還是對不起來，所以這邊有一個具體的建議，USR這邊還是用社會目的、環境目的、永續經濟等等去進行盤點，不會以成立合作社為主要的目的，但是如果在盤點完之後，如果跟在地合作社真的有一些可以互相銜接的，也滿期待USR的朋友們可以幫在地可能經營很久，但是找不到怎麼樣一種更創新方法的這一些朋友，就很像USR也有幫在地社區發展協會、幫在地小農的不同組織形態，幫他們動腦袋一樣，等於把合作社放到事業裡面，倒不是要他們去挑合作社這個型態，不要排除就可以了。如果覺得USR可以的話，我覺得這個是相對簡單的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "國教的部分是不是請國教的朋友？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "主席、各位與會代表大家午安，國教這邊其實非常認同內政部有關於員生消費合作社相關合作教育的功能，其實真的是有他的教育意義跟價值，所以我們其實也從來都非常鼓勵學校能夠持續辦理，包括內政部在105年也擬訂了營造學校員生消費合作社，發展環境行動方案的部分，這一個部分我們也大力支持。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我想這樣的計畫當中，剛才內政部的長官也有提到，對於老師跟校長教育訓練，如何讓他們認同合作教育的這一件事，其實我想內政部每一年都在辦理教育訓練，國教署這邊也搭配一起過去並促成這樣的課程，我想我們都非常樂見，整個方案我想內政部也都瞭解學校現在目前行政的loading，因此我們一直是用鼓勵，也不敢用強迫的方式，如何促成這一件事，其實我們會大力一起跟你們合作，因此我們樂見其成，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來這邊是兩個，一個是本來合團司所提供的課程資料，這邊是一個轉知的動作，就是有一起辦理，那個量大概是多少？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "在我們部裡面有為員生社開的班，只有兩、三班的量而已。在這裡謝謝國教署，確實講師有派員一起來座談，但是我們比較期待的是，回到校長、主任、老師養成的過程中，是不是有機會有這樣的價值培育課程，我想時數的部分就尊重教育部，我們會推薦專家學者瞭解什麼是合作社。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "要不然後面自願參加的部分，現在也比較困難了，因此也期待是不是可以有比較大量價值培育的機會，而且是這一些比較重點的，他們本來要受訓的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過這樣聽起來並不是一件事調訓，而是勢必排在他們無論如何非去上不可的課程裡面，等於是搭在那個上面。目前看起來比較像這個的是新課綱素養導向的課程設計，聽起來好像是這樣，我不曉得這邊有沒有一些想過，我們如果現在好比像教材教案跟校訂必修的新課綱發展，裡面有哪一些成分，不管是在社會裡面強調共好互動的成分，或者是在其他的成分裡面，我們可以想辦法把合作教育，不一定是合作社，而是合作教育扣合進去的核心素養，之前有做過這一種調查、想法或者是類似的教材教案嗎？" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "不好意思，課綱是國教院那邊在處理，課程跟教案的部分是國中小組另外一組，所以我們會把這樣的訊息帶回去，相關的領域是有的，我們會採議題融入的方式，要看哪一些是可以融入的，也麻煩內政部提供給我們帶回去，讓老師可以直接引用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一個部分是不是儘量用議題融入的方法來做，其實我也理解到現在尤其是在主任及校長的level，所有新興包括人工智慧、永續發展目標，你只要想得出來的新名詞，他們都得要調訓，所以你說每一個都可以深度到什麼程度，我覺得也是存疑的，但是如果是他們有參與的部分，就是學校課發會一定得做什麼事的部分，其實我們一般做教育，大概都知道你用講的，他大概不會記得，但是他自己創造出來的東西一定記得。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我也是比較期待如果可以帶回去跟同仁稍微集思廣益一下，因為其實自發、互動、共好都跟合作教育其實絕對找得到扣合，只是找得到多細的那個程度的扣合，如果找得到的話，他們一定會按照這個去做融入的教材教案，這樣子才可以真的做到老師在推行合作教育，不管是自己辦合作社，或者是在外面跟學校外的合作社一起去做教材研擬，才可以以正規的時間做，而不是加班，然後行政工作都做不完了，不會是午餐秘書的狀況來做，所以我覺得這樣子才是比較有可能全臺灣都做，不然每一年調訓的能量是非常有限的，因此麻煩帶回去討論一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我對課綱有一定的貢獻，所以過程裡面作為課發會前成員有任何對齊上需要詢問我的話，就隨時直接email我，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他的部分剛剛有提到勞動、衛福部朋友們的分享，你們已經有現成的資料、有網站，你們是都希望大家看過嗎？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我們目前跟勞動部有溝通，把單張送到職訓的場所去，他們說願意幫我們去推廣，但是我們是希望這個是單張，是不是有機會能夠對政府部門的對口來做這樣的理解，你說認識、認知，然後到認同，當然有一段時間，但是至少有這個機會，不然每一次部會在溝通的時候，什麼都講「合作社」，這樣對不起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個很好，單張是以勞動合作社為主嗎？還是其他的？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "以勞動合作社為主。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他型態也沒有包括在那個單張裡面？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我們希望是合作社基本概念的價值培育。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，可能沒有辦法直接運用那個單張，尤其新合作社法通過之後，多角化經營其實是常態。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "對，是這一類型，但是可以講他的價值與經營原則。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好啊！我想這個必須要另外設計，可能很難用質詢的單張。衛福部的部分是？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "一樣會碰到那個長照2.0，那個比較屬於勞動合作社的部分，可以併在勞動合作社一起來談。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "勞動合作社有關於民主、互助等等原則，為何憲法要鼓勵這一種組織，這個是一件事；第二，專門針對勞動合作社，我們可能分成這兩種來處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看勞動部的朋友？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "主席、所有工作夥伴，我直接報告，有關於合作社的部分，是不是到了勞動合作社的部分，因為我們大概就是負責那一塊，是不是針對那一塊來表達我們的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，看衛福部的朋友有沒有什麼想法？也是長照的部分，或者我們也是到那個子題再來討論？" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "報告主席，還是我們到下一個主題一起完整說明好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。所以聽起來沒有人反對合作社精神的這一個部分，就是比較上層的那一個部分，我具體建議大概有兩個：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，你們本來合團司就有網站，是不是有可能專門挑一頁出來，就是那個網址，而那個網址專門給我們受過完整公共行政訓練的朋友，等於一目了然，也不一定要一張A4，網站是可以捲動的，這個像剛開始推開放資料的時候，其實也不知道為何要做開放資料，所以在開放資料平台上叫做「關於我們」，如果到「data.gov.tw」按「關於我們」，那個網站當然有一點歷史，那個是2013年弄的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們當初在弄的時候，從價值、目的、依據及相關法令等等都會很完整列下來，你也不需要一定要用漫畫或者是給小學生的口吻，而是說你假設大家都有完整的公行訓練，一次讓大家知道這一件事的價值在哪裡，也許可以參考題材，然後在你們的網站上做一頁，我們盡可能把這一頁讓該看到的人都看到，這個是第一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，有了這樣一頁之後，各部會如果對於這一頁上的東西大家都可以加減乘除，如果可以再加上一些每一個部會對於合作社型態在那一個部會，好比像這裡有提到勞動合作社是一個專節，是不是等這個大的出來之後，每一個不同的合作社型態，我們跟最相關的部會再來合作撰寫或者是合作做一些增補的部分，那就是對於特定合作社型態來做，因為依我的想像，可能農委會、文化部也好，都對社區合作社有很多想法，那個部分也是一樣共同創作的方法來做，其實是因為共同創作，大家才記得，但是最上面的部分可能請你們麻煩先幫忙做。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "主席、各位同仁，因為我以前當過農委會員消社的經理，如果調我去受訓，我一定是嗤之以鼻，你今天要調校長、老師再去上合作社，其實我們現在並沒有把問題搞清楚，我們學校的員生消費社碰到什麼問題，目前普及化的程度怎麼樣，為何老師、校長不願意辦員生消費社，我們都沒有搞清楚，然後就說要叫他們來培養理念，我覺得這真的是要慎重考慮一下。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "像以前每一個老師，年終都可以分很多錢，學生說為何老師員生消費社可以分紅，但是學生為何分不到？因為學生也去交易，但是每個人都分的話，老師可能從2,000元變成2元，因為學生太多了，所以這個也是員生消費社為什麼會那個。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "所以包括員生消費社供貨的問題，以前很多是碳酸飲料，碳酸飲料不行的話，很多主要的東西都不行，我們今天說要讓校園裡面的員生消費社，其實以前很多學校都有員生消費社，為何後來會不見？或者是現在為什麼會變成比較那個？我們應該要把問題弄清楚。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "我們再面對問題、解決問題，校長、老師的考慮是什麼？絕對不是因為他們沒有愛心，我當初在農委會，我一開始就喊出分紅保證分10％，所以很多人就把家裡買的跟鄰居買的都拿到辦公室來賣，可是我自己也沒有什麼，我自己好處都沒有，我自己只有成就感。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "我們在農委會賣水果，賣到很多台北市的單位水果都是透過我們來買，這個是我們唯一很有成就感，可以幫農民賣水果，很多人又可以透過這個方式來取得，因此我建議與其叫老師來上課，不如找幾個學校做標竿，這個是我們今天要讓學校的員生消費社能夠重新站起來。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "其實學校的員生消費社是非常好的場域，像我太太之前在基隆高中，有學生家裡環境不好，你給他錢他也吃不下去，他的臉掛不住，因此就到員生消費社裡面去找中午工讀的位置讓他工讀，因為這樣子，所以中午可以吃免費的午餐，他吃起來覺得因為有付出，你給他便當，他不要，你給他工作以後，他去吃便當，所以他就可以接受，因此那個是不用出校門就可以解決弱勢學生的問題，因此他是真的有價值，但是如何在很健康的環境成長，絕對不是理念性的，我跟你保證絕對不是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "哪一個校長不是身經百戰的，你還要叫他來訓練？合作社理念也沒有多困難，因此今天這一個案子並不是理念培訓的階段，而是action的階段，因此我建議幾個相關的部會考慮一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個跟我們剛剛講的是完全對齊的，我們也並不是要校長跟主任來調訓的意思，我們是說把培育合作人才的意義，剛剛處長特別講到的是，其實從校長這個level，你讓他分紅大概也沒有什麼意義，重點還是在我們新課綱的教育理念底下，讓他可以看到這個可以創造出什麼社會、經濟、教育的價值，這個才是真的，我們剛剛講的其實尤其課發會，我想各個校長，尤其高中階段的校長，現在腦裡都是在放這一件事，到底素養導向是怎麼回事，真的教得起來嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們如果提出一些標竿案例或者是教案，讓大家覺得你只要這樣子一做，素養導向融入教育自然達成，我覺得這個是最好的，不然都會落入關鍵字，如果你是考他關鍵字，哪一個校長會答不出來，因此融入教育，我想這個才是比較重要，這樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我贊同處長的說法，確實有兩個問題，一個是理念上即認知的問題，一個是經營上的實際困難，經營的困難不知道是不是可以在這裡提，最大的困難是經濟規模太小了，沒有東西可以賣的時候，學生的消費教育、環保教育在這裡做不了，因為學生都會從外面打電話送進來，甚至圍牆邊都可以交易，這些我們都可以知道。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "經濟規模不足的時候，是什麼狀況？因為他不能請專職的人，所以老師必須兼很多的行政工作，因此多出來的工作，當然大家都不願意，這個是一環扣一環的，我們也很期待跟國教署來談到底什麼樣的品項可以做適當的擴充？只有原子筆、牛奶、礦泉水沒有辦法支撐這個平台的，所有的事情都不能做了。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "甚至也有老師跟我們講說員生消費社的功能很多我們看不到，學生也是有壓力的，他們說下課10分鐘，有的高中職的員生消費社規模，他的場地、設備很好，學生都會去走走，不一定會買，在那裡就是壓力舒解的地方，有很多的功能。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我們贊成標竿的案例，方案也希望這樣來做，我們也期待是不是有另外一個對話，也就是實際上運作這一塊如何來做？解決弱勢的部分，只要有資源，各種可能都有，我一直找很多學校的員生消費社看有沒有人來做，因為中餐的營養午餐已經沒有了，但是早餐可以做，可以怎麼做？我們可以把附近社區的弱勢，媽媽或爸爸單親結合並跟職訓配合，然後做一些訓練、專職做早餐的部分，就是一個固定的通路，事實上可以維持第一個維持基本門檻的經濟規模，我覺得這真的是很多可以做。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "但是如果員生消費社這個機制垮了，沒有辦法做，所有東西都不可能，那就是0，因此我們期待一個是理念教育的部分，一個是實際運作的困難部分，我們還希望有對話的機會，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看這邊要不要指導一下？" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "我想員生消費社的問題，內政部這邊都很清楚，在社務的部分，當然我們也知道人力是老師兼班，現在老師兼班的工作非常多，包括資安的專業人員、環境教育專業人員，還有午餐等等。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "單單需要午餐就造成老師很大的loading，什麼都可能有，其實現在很多合作社，我們真的都讓很多師生有勞動的機會，但是對於品項的部分，必須要在這邊說明，並不是限到什麼都不能賣，而是必須要考量孩子健康的問題，所以我們限制的品項，其實除了有一些安全的認證以外，其他大概都是熱量的一些限制。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "我們也看到國中小，尤其是國中跟高中，這幾年的體位一直往上飆，不是學校限了，學生就有辦法恢復健康的體位，但是我覺得在教育場域，我們必須要有這樣的責任去作把關，沒有辦法在校園裡面賣珍珠奶茶，也沒有辦法在校園裡面賣炸雞排，這個要能夠理解。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "至於提到早餐、晚餐或者是其他餐，我們漸漸辦教育有一種感受，幾乎取代了家庭功能，我們一直在倡導回家吃晚飯跟爸爸、媽媽一起做早餐的這一件事，其實是可以促進家庭融合的，家長漸漸開始要求學校要賣早餐，可是這個真的是辦教育的目的嗎？教育到最後會取代社會福利，要吃中餐、早餐、晚餐，甚至於希望能夠全面提供。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "用美食街的方式，這個是高中比較可以的型態，目前很多學校因為辦理這樣需求的壓力，剛剛長官提到的，販賣的品項這一個部分他們也委外辦了美食街，我們也為了這個安全一直做把關，我們請了專業的人力、請了所有的營養師，每一學年必須去稽查過一次，所以在品項的部分，是不是可以開放？我們在合作社販賣的範圍當中，我們也跟衛福部一起討論、會銜公告的辦法。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "因此品項是不是可以開放，我想這邊要重申，我們一樣以學生健康為優先，不會讓他具有經濟規模賣一些小朋友喜歡的東西，讓他變成是有規模的人，因此我們從課綱或者是教育領域去融入議題，讓孩子能夠保有這樣的觀念，能夠從小就深植在心裡面的價值觀，而不是用這樣的型態，餵了喝牛奶而養了一頭牛，我不是不贊同，我只是說有沒有必要每一個學校都養了一頭牛讓學生都可以有牛奶喝，這個是我們遇到的困境。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "另外，學校的老師通常在會計的基礎上都沒有這樣的基礎，因此在這一個部分也倍感壓力，並不是我們不支持，實際上在經營上也有其困難，如果內政部這邊有一些標竿的方案，希望我們配合，我想我們很願意一起來合作，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，我先確認我聽到的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，現有消費合作社的品項，這個部分不管是在時間上或者是品項類別上，其實之前是經過充分討論的，並不是任意限制，聽起來是這個意思，可以檢討，但是不要任意放寬，我聽起來的意思是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，但是其實並不反對每一個學校的原生，不一定是自己的原生，而是多去參與別的合作社經營，甚至變成是教育的一部分，這個是認同的，但是並不是每一個學校都因此非得教不會會計的是去教會計，我聽起來意思是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先問一下合團司，新的合作社法裡面，我們把信用保險排除掉，那個是特殊的，對不對？好比我現在是一個消費合作社，我還是可以做生產供給運銷利用勞動公用運輸，對不對？我並不是因為我的名字叫做「消費合作社」就不能做別的九件事？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "基本上是這一群人的共同需要，像如何做生產，像有一些職業學校有試做麵包，做出來以後怎麼辦？要賣，但是賣也不是學校吃得下來，而是可以對外販售。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是學校有自己的空間、maker space，那個也是一種利用的型態等等，其實我覺得大家一想到大人的合作社，就想到勞動合作社，一想到小孩就想到消費合作社，我覺得這個是要突破的觀念，雖然名字叫做「消費合作社」，但是並不表示不能另外做九件事，這個概念大家要先有，才不會一直在賣牛奶、賣飲料上打轉，因為要引導他去往另外九個方向想，並不是在這一個方向上硬要突破，因為那個地方突破的空間可能不是很大，但是如果多角化經營是一個可能性的話，其實在USR這幾年下來看到很多有創意的用法，那個都是在高教，國教這邊確實是比較少的案例，但是我覺得找到一、兩個，對大家是會有啟發性的，這個聽起來也是比較同意的做法，而不是大家一直在品項上打算，這樣可以接受嗎？或者覺得有別的要檢討的部分，也一起提出來。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "品項的部分，好比說垃圾食品、珍珠奶茶的計算，那不是我們的想像。但是不是可以有討論的空間？而這個討論空間是，老師根本不知道借什麼東西，因為那個文字一下來就不知道可以賣什麼，是不是可以找到比較公正的，像董氏基金會或者怎麼樣，一起找這一些基金會來討論哪一些是在學校裡面賣的、並做一些突破，我們當然尊重教育單位，那一些垃圾食品不可以，但是學校裡面沒有賣，學生一樣照吃，那個消費的教育做不到，如果學校裡面有一些資源可以讓他們一起參與或者是什麼樣，我覺得那個是有機會讓他們參與、討論之後去學到的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我拋一個主意，這個完全不成熟，所以請不要把它當成裁示。我有一次去天和鮮物，然後它有一個專櫃，放了一個SDG 12的負責任生產消費循環的牌子在那邊，我一看，上面列的是社企登錄的廠家，所以表示一定有人做對了什麼事，所以才會變成他們既打SDG招牌出來，然後又把社企登錄上的基本招牌都附在上面，我們也不用像在空總一樣策展，等於天和鮮物幫我們策展的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "消費合作社當然並不是所有社創登錄上的產品跟服務都適合跑去學校賣，但是事實上這個是現成的登記，對不對？這個是現成的品項列表，而且中企處每個月還會出型錄之類的，至少那個型錄是有教育意義的，告訴我們說你買了這個東西、進這個貨，會在臺灣的角落創造多少土地的活化、原住民族的就業，每一個品項都有故事，他們真的很用心，所以至少如果把這個放進去學校，可能應該不會教壞小孩才對，應該是有正面的教育意義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，我在想這是不是一個可能性？並不是一定在登記上就要賣，而是把這個當作參考的出發點，這個可以像天和一樣，可以掛一個SDG什麼的牌子，我覺得這個也是在完全不付出額外訓練成本的情況下做永續目標的推廣可能性，只是參考。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "不好意思，我想內政部可能不太瞭解我們做的一些事，所以會讓你們誤解，剛剛你們有提到是不是可以請董事基金會，我們今年已經好幾年都委託董事基金會幫我們做校園食品販賣的輔導，其實規範的範圍很清楚，大概是幾類的規範，什麼東西可以賣、什麼東西不可以賣，我們學校老師也非常清楚，尤其是合作社的，倒是他們會逾越了那個範圍，我們才請董氏基金會幫忙做輔導。剛才主席這邊裁示的，我們一定會在教育上多做一些著墨。" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "我們常常辦的一些活動，其實類似配合農委會推「四章一Q」一樣，我們也一直在教孩子怎麼認識「四章一Q」的標章，它的代表意義又是什麼。對於學生校園合作社可以販賣的範圍也一樣，我們常常帶著小朋友去合作社，去跟他們講哪一個標案怎麼認、為何要賣這一些，為什麼不是賣珍珠奶茶跟炸雞，這個在教育上都有在做，因此放心，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是只有「食品」，還是「非食品」也是？" }, { "speaker": "教育部代表", "speech": "「非食品」我們倒是沒有很大的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以沒有原子筆基金會之類的？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "在高級中等學校的消費合作社注意事項裡面，已經律定他們可以做什麼經營，可以做供銷、生產、公用、代辦。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我知道，但是不一定大家都知道。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "100年就已經公告了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我知道100年就公告了，但我應該可以說，這還不是社會通念——隨便去路上問一個人，他大概不會這樣子想。所以我想我們這個理念的擴散，還是有很大的成長空間，但是我理解你們已經是這樣律定，這個我知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以食品的部分，我想我們已經有很好教育的判斷標準，但是非食品部分，就是你買一支原子筆，到底產生多少的社會價值？這一件事其實還不那麼穩定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "社企登錄是一個可能性，當然還有很多別的可能性，並不是侷限在這一個。只是這樣子的好處有兩個：一個是學生不會一直很專注在食品上，因為食品的競爭力真的有限，這個我們都知道；第二個是即使服務性質或者是非食品的產品性質，只要它裡面還是擁有環境跟社會教育功能，這樣子大家就會覺得合作社也學到一些什麼，這個跟剛剛的素養融入教學其實是相同的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你們可以的話，或許帶回去討論一下？也不是硬要變成什麼教案，就看是不是可以往這個方向推行。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "我前幾天去健康檢查，我就問營養師說我很喜歡吃香蕉，我一餐可不可以吃很多根香蕉，他說：「你吃任何東西，只要不均衡都不好，不管東西多好。」所以我剛剛的意思是，其實學校也是一個生活教育的場所，你要讓小孩子有機會去做選擇，不要我們今天在學校說你無法接觸到，你就少掉那個訓練的機會，因為你早晚都要離開學校，你一下課就離開學校，所以我們今天如果說像企鵝一樣把頭埋著說一下課沒有看到，我不管，只管你在學校裡面，這個滿奇怪的。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "像我不會不給小孩子錢，因為父母有的怕給小孩子錢會亂花，相對的，我會給小孩子很多錢，我會訓練他如何控制自己花這個錢，結果我發現我們給他很多錢，小孩子變得很小氣，反而不買，就變成這樣子，所以我要給他們有一個機會去訓練，這個比剛剛合作理念更重要，他要學會這個東西。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "像剛剛講如果你給我，我當合作社經理，只賣剛剛那幾種絕對倒店的，那個只能自動販賣機，丟錢進去就自動跑鮮奶出來就好了，根本不需要人，根本也沒有合作理念，所以一定是有賣一根香蕉，有很多新鮮的水果，或者是叫他吃生菜沙拉，因為小孩子都不喜歡吃生菜沙拉，還不是千島醬，而要和風醬。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "搞不好出來的東西是3D printing以後的這一些素材，看起來很好看，但是吃起來不好吃，這個東西就是關鍵到什麼？關鍵到後面一定要供貨，我看到有夜市擺麵包的，就是「夜市麵包女王」，我覺得這個老闆娘很有理念，從蘆洲賣到屏東去，工廠在台南，我的意思是這個東西是她來供應學校的員消社，因為她每一個地方都有經銷商，類似這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "有些麵包是用鮮奶，然後只有上面撒一點鹽巴，只有這樣子，那個是她最暢銷的，我的意思是要幫員消後面找供應鏈，不然這一些老師每一個人找供應鏈，老師哪有空？真的很難，我以前在農委會合作社的時候，中間有一個盤商，一個盤商就負責供應幾百種的生活日用品。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "其實經營員消社，如果貨品多，最難的是什麼？是要盤點，我們有一千多種的商品，我坦白跟各位講，我那一處的同仁幫我盤點，盤點一天，一個月要盤點一次，一般來講是一個月盤點一次，有一個人在那邊算，一個人拿著盤點機在那邊掃，盤點是我最痛苦的，考慮盤點，因此只供貨五種，這也是一種考慮。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "我的意思是，先找幾個有心想辦的，然後從辦的過程中去檢討。不要一下子全部都做，如果全部都做，全部都做不成，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。確實，其實我們看USR的計畫裡面，其實做農改的非常多，那其實也是現成的，也就是已經知道產生教育、社會、環境意義的供貨來源，也就是如何從高教那邊批貨的意思，有大學的地方就有希望，這個是其中一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然我們還有很多別的來源，這邊我想處長的提醒都滿好的，當然我也理解到教育部這邊對於食品責信，也就是有一定的要求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，我覺得如果要擴大貨源的話，有時從非食品開始會比較容易，不一定要去衝食品的部分，反而你從非食品的部分做出一些名號出來之後，才可以反過來擴大它。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但到頭來，並不是叫學生一定不要做什麼。像早上、晚上都不在學校，他要做什麼，你也管不著，而且有一句名言是「你如果想做一件事，你可以自己做、請別人做，或是叫你小孩不要做」。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以不可能一味禁止。只是我會覺得，在做出一個成績之前就先挑戰前面安全規範是不明智的，因此挑幾個試點、先把新的一套做出來，這樣或許可以突破本來消費合作社的缺口，我想策略上是這樣子來辦理，麻煩帶回去跟同事討論看看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "下一個。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「案由二，對於具文化公益社會性的小旅行及民宿之法規限制提請討論」。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "這一案在上次的協調會議中，交通部觀光局有表示規劃朝修法的方式來處理，並將於今年11月邀集專家學者召開研商發展管理條例及旅行業管理規則部分條文修訂草案會議，規劃希望把旅行業的業務範圍予以放寬，請交通部說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "交通部代表", "speech": "主席、各位與會代表大家好，交通部這邊說明，上次開會大家有打開前幾天的報紙，傳統業者是群起反對，所以那一次的會議是暫停，但是我們也瞭解到新創的業者也有他的需求，但是我們可能重新去思考的是為何旅行業會用特許行業，基本上也是因為旅行業本身是一個服務業，所使用的交通工具、住宿或者是景點都不是他的產品，因此我們堅持會以旅行業為特許行業也就是在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "交通部代表", "speech": "可能有時大家會看到事先收費，然後到時錢拿了就倒閉、離開了的這一種狀況，另外一種是所使用的交通工具如果有狀況時，其實旅行業者因為我們的管理上軌道，因此有一些履約保險、公協會互動，在出事的時候，都可以立刻互相支援，也就是因為這樣，我們覺得對於消費者的安全、旅遊品質其實是最重要的。" }, { "speaker": "交通部代表", "speech": "因此，觀光局在之後的處理方式，可能會朝向幾個方面：" }, { "speaker": "交通部代表", "speech": "第一，我們還是會先分開來開會，因為原本的開會是找大家一起來，但是狀況不是太好，我們現在可能會分開來，也就是說，相關的政府單位會是一場，業者也會分開不同的樣態，瞭解互相的需求跟他們在意的點在哪一種方式，當然也不表示觀光局之前都沒有進行過溝通及討論，其實跟相關機關與業者的討論，其實是一直持續在進行，但是都沒有共識，所以其實我們也是有一些為難。" }, { "speaker": "交通部代表", "speech": "我們還是會持續做溝通，但是修法的部分，原則上我們會從管理規則著手，並不會動母法。去做放寬入行門檻的角度去做，還是要進到旅行業的領域來，只是我們讓他進來的條件放寬，大家一致的這一種有效管理方式，觀光局本身也會朝低度的管理來做，希望我們能夠修一個平衡產業需求、消費者權益保障都可以考慮到，這當然應該要雙方互相溝通、退讓，才有辦法做得到，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先確認我聽到的，然後再看大家的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，觀光發展條例第66條，你們覺得是有必要的，就是有保護他的法益，所以並沒有想要動那個母法，現在主要是讓他實行下來，他的門檻可以稍微有所調整，我聽到第一個是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我確認一下我聽到的，你們只要同時把大的業者、新創業者、公部門放在同一個桌子上就沒有辦法收到意見，所以現在想要分別討論，我聽起來是這個意思，是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "交通部代表", "speech": "第一項是發展觀光條例第26條的特許行業；開會的部分，應該是講各種方式我們都會去嘗試。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解，但是必然是碰到某種困難。現在的意思是沒有辦法壓一個時程的主要原因是，共識一直沒有辦法收斂，不過大家不用擔心今天的紀錄及下禮拜社創的紀錄出去會造成什麼政治效果，因為出去都是選後了，也不會有委員怎麼樣或票太多的問題，所以我們可以講一些比較實際的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們之前協調Airbnb也碰到過一樣的情況，你如果不是公開的，而是閉門的，大家一出去之後，講法跟在會議上不一樣，所以這個情況是開再多次都熟不起來，這個我瞭解，更不要說最近才有租賃車的另外一件事，這個都很需要權衡的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少我剛剛聽起來願意動規則、不動母法的方向，至少短期內是可行的方向，剛開始先跟大家揭示這個方向的話，我覺得大家的疑慮會小一點，因為之前有一些立法委員或者是學者也好，一開頭就是說要動那個母法，然後要在那個母法裡面弄專章或者是把那一條進行調整，這樣當然社會動蕩比較大，因此我也贊成修正比較小的部分。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "這個課題在國發會地方創生會報也提出來，所以我只是建議給他們處理，因為那邊院長會主持。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "我報告一下，其實我之前推動農業部門有很多休閒農場，我們也辦得非常好，開個遊覽車在網路上招團，就往休閒農場去了，因為辦了太好了，就引來旅行社的抗議，沒有旅行社，怎麼可以在網路上招團呢？" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "後來我們建議說去找旅行社來合作，出團就用旅行社的名字，後來有幾個農會轉投資成立一家旅行社，這個是包括台北市農會、鹿野地區農會，所以網路上如果google「台北市農會旅行社」這幾個字就可以看到旅行社跑出來了，因為他們有農業專屬的旅行社，他們就可以去找他們。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "我覺得這個案子不管是民宿或者是什麼，其實旅行就是要有一個單或者是圈，不能說民宿就自己找旅行社，像他們講的，以前我們休閒農場，最怕的是錢匯過去，然後沒有房間，因為網路上看起來很漂亮，可是根本就沒有東西，就發生過這樣的一件事。所以網路上跟休閒農場，一定要我們派人去看過真的有這個東西，我們才同意登在網路上，這中間有很多，也許大家不知道，政府要幫他把關，不然真的會出很多問題。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "所以這一項如果真的要的話，還是可以去找一些旅行社願意跟這一些合作，讓他來出頭，就是找這個小旅行，就是某某旅行社，有些旅行社經營非常不好，也很難框，找他來，政府就要去找適當、老闆又有誠信的，實質業務是別人幫他框好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。我理解到有這個情況。《旅行業管理規則》的部分，就如處長建議在地方創生會報來處理，我們這邊當然是樂觀其成，因為如果你修正到門檻比較低的話，像剛剛講的，其實剛剛講的那幾個農會是特別強的，但是你換一個地區就不一定這麼容易，這個是說真的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，如果能有適度調整空間，那個就請地方創生會報來討論，我們在社創這邊還是把這個模式進行擴散。因為社創最主要的目的，是要把社會上一些新的做法——大家可能還不知道的創新——來進行擴散，所以像剛剛農會能夠這樣子做，就表示地方好比像文史工作者、社區發展協會團結起來，也可以開一個旅行社。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且以前，大家會怕使命逸脫的問題，你開一家公司，公司增資就跑掉了，現在感謝好牧人，我們有一套不管怎麼增資都跑不掉的方法，就是使命鎖定式的社會企業，這一些都是社會創新。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以未來碰到類似形狀的話，如果一方面是有現有的旅行社最好，但是如果沒有的話，而且旅行社管理規則在地方創生適度修正、減少門檻的話，大家就團結起來，然後自己空一個旅行社出來，我覺得這樣子也比較切合交通部這邊對於必要責任的要求，等於是這幾家微小型企業，每一家可能都無法負全部的責任，但是在地透過地方創生團結起來的話，加在一起是負到一定程度的責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於是不是高到現有管理規則的程度，接下來還是可以檢討。這個是我聽到的意見，看大家有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「案由三，勞動合作社適用勞動基準法妥適性，提請討論。」本案是有關於勞務採購契約範本、長照特約契約書這兩項是有業者在反映，上次的會議當中，有請內政部就勞務採購契約範本第8條增列第17款，也請勞動部及工程會在協助檢視這個文字是否妥適，請內政部、勞動部、工程會、衛福部說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個建議修改內容，大家手上都有書面，順利還是先請內政部，內政部這邊覺得我們現在這個處理或者是書面覺得還ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "謝謝政委的關切及中小企業處，確實開第二次協調會，真的非常感謝中小企業處，這個地方我們有修版本，有給勞動部跟工程會，他們的意見還沒有回來，但是有告訴我們說要用正式公文，我不曉得今天是不是可以就這一個部分來討論。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我想來做一個確認，勞動合作社跟大的行政人員一定有雇傭關係，我們今天不講，勞動合作社的社員跟合作社之間有沒有雇傭關係，這一塊確實已經很多年，十幾年來都沒有辦法結。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我想在整個合作社的本質，如果今天大家認同勞動合作社的社員，本質上不具有雇傭關係，如果今天在招標案件裡面，像合作社違反這一些相關的規定或者是怎麼樣，我們跟勞動部是有一個共識，那個是個案處理，他們會用另外勞工權益的部分去處理，如果可以確認勞動合作社跟社員間沒有雇傭關係，我想依序展開才可以有對話，不然大家都還是在自己的專業跟法規上打轉就轉不出來。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "另外，合作社碰到的最大困難，有提到的是現在新的這一、兩年，也就是招標文件上會要求保障勞工權益切結書，這個是屬於雇傭關係的部分。另外一個是就業服務許可證，這個部分我們經過反覆討論，我想大家也認為就業服務許可證的這一件事是比較奇怪一點，未來是不是可以在什麼樣正式的公文上可以有一個呈現，也就是機關在招標勞務的時候，不適合做的話，就不要放進來，在招標文件上，並不是在定型化契約去做這一件事，因此我們今天看的是定型化契約範本，而招標文件另外再處理時就扣合不到。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "因此我們也希望這兩點，是不是先認識或者確認合作社跟社員間是沒有雇傭關係，如果有其他規定，我們也依照其他規定。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "另外，這兩個招標文件的部分，我們可以在什麼地方正式確認不應該出現在招標文件上？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們這兩個題目分別討論好了，因為前面是比較大的，如果前面沒有討論到一個程度的話，你那一份公文也寫不出來，我們還是要先解決雇傭關係的這一件事。我想先問一下，按照新合作社法，目前合作社除了有社員之外，還有準社員，也就是有限責任裡面有準社員，好比限制行為能力人這個是比較特殊的情況，但是最簡單的，其實是第3項，只要章程說「我的社員只收一些人，其他人不收當作社員」，這樣即使是完全行為能力人也只能成為準社員。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我們也觀察到一些情況，有一些合作社把他的契作農或者是什麼東西都納入成為準社員，這裡都是個案，但是這裡的個案滿多的，我現在想要問一下，準社員的最大差別是沒有民主的權利，就是選舉權、被選舉權、罷免權、表決權，但是可以分紅。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們覺得沒有雇傭關係的其中一個論理是可以完整參與合作社的社務經營、共同決策等等，等於是股東，但是一個沒有表決權的股東還是不是算股東？這個是學理上可以爭論的話題，先不管等一下大家的意見怎麼樣，這個能否推及到「準社員」不無疑問，這個是另外一個可以討論的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我瞭解這邊的主張是，假設是有完整的選舉、被選舉、罷免、表決等權利的完整社員，那應該不是雇傭關係？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "主席、所有工作夥伴，我應該要謝謝，且表達很敬佩內政部在這一個案子所做的努力，但是也希望得到支持與諒解，今天站在勞動行政主管機關的立場，我們對於勞工的權利，反而也一定要捍衛，我想這個是原則。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我們應該要重申原則，非常認同內政部的代表所提到的，的確點出這個案子的癥結點，而這個癥結點其實也表達很多次了，我想也跟主席報告，允許我在這樣子的立場、會議裡面再重申一下勞動部對於這樣子原則的立場。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "針對勞動合作社對外提供勞務，可能涉及的契約型態有承攬、委任、派遣等等的契約關係，而勞動合作社對內跟社員間，除了共同出資、共同經營合作社的關係以外，就誠如剛剛所提到的，不管是會員或者是準會員，這個合作社的關係以外，還有可能形成雇傭、承攬、委任、居間等契約的關係。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "因此我想要表達的第一件事是，如果具有雇傭關係時，我們還是希望能夠確遵勞動基準法最低勞動條件的相關規定，這是我們重申這樣的立場。另外，我也作一個補充，這樣的立場、說明，其實我們可以從下面幾點來得到一個立論基礎，在立法院第8屆第3會期第14次會議審議時，當時行政院有正式行文給立法院，當時這樣的立場就是在我們行政院對立法院行文時有明確地表達這樣的立場，當時相關的行政部門也得到支持，這個是就行政部門的角度來看這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第二，我想要跟各位報告的是，這樣的見解在實務執行上，我們有很多合作社內部關係，當在承攬一些行政機關這一些工程案中，對於合作社社員的內部關係，我們也看到不同的案例，有一些有雇傭關係，有一些沒有雇傭關係，因此這樣的情形，其實也符合了我們當時跟立法院來做報告時，證明合作社跟社員間的法律關係，其實是多元存在的。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第三，這樣的見解在目前司法實務上，相關的判決也有得到支持，如果需要這樣的資料，我們也可以事後提供。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第四，其實這樣的見解也是長期以來勞動部對勞工權益的主張，也是我們一貫的立場，我想先簡單以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先確認我聽到的，當然人格從屬、勞務對價、法令明定，這些是雇傭關係存在的界定標準，這個是通說。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我剛剛聽到的是，即使是勞動合作社，這邊的見解是，如果他成立雇傭關係所存續的這一些基本條件，這應該認定為雇傭關係，如果不成立或者有一些不成立，那這邊也同意也許這樣子就是社員關係，而不是雇傭關係，是這樣嗎？或者是無論如何都一定成立雇傭關係？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我應該講精確一點，合作社跟社員間的法律關係，合作社法是基本的規範，這個是他的母法，我們現在要闡釋的是，除了這個合作社法基礎的法律關係以外，他們之間的關係還有可能是成立雇傭、承攬，還有可能成立相關的委任、居間等等，所以換句話說，我們先跟大家報告，比如有人格上的從屬等等時，那可能在我們勞動部，我們會認為是雇傭。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "當他不是具備這一些條件時，並不見得會回歸到合作社法，有可能變成居間、也可能變成剛剛提到的委任、承攬，只是基礎條件、基礎法律關係是合作社法，但是在這個基礎法律關係上往上墊出來的法律關係，就是我剛剛跟您報告的以下各種類型，以下補充說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大概有聽懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在把它想像成不是社員好了，現在是關係企業，我現在有一個接收政府標案的團體，我們現在不是社員，而是有一大堆一人公司，這一些一人公司按照新公司法都非常容易設立了，所以每個自然人忽然都變成法人了，這一大堆一人公司去跟母公司集團好了，去成立某一些對價的關係，因為不是自然人，所以不會是雇傭，比較像居間、承攬、委派，如果是法人對法人的時候，這樣子算什麼？還是就是一般民事契約關係？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "政委，我可能舉一個比較通俗的說法，但是不見得match。可能類似的概念是，我今天擁有台積電的股票，我是不是他的股東？我是他的股東，沒有問題，我是他的股東成員沒有問題，但是除了這個基礎法律關係以外，我能不能是他的員工？可以啊！那就變成雇傭，就是在股東的關係下還有雇傭墊基，有沒有可能不是雇傭？但是委任我去做什麼事？有可能啊！當我是律師，我持有台積電的股票，我是你的股東，你委任我去打官司的時候，我們兩個除了股東關係，還有委任關係，我大概想要表達類似的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。不過我想台積電的狀況之所以比較misleading，為什麼我一直想要用閉鎖型公司來解釋的原因是，台積電的股東，大家都知道很難跟Morris拼投票權，大概是贏不了的。但是合作社的話，即使是理事主席，也就一票而已，所以其實這兩個還是有本質上的不同，倒不一定能夠類比。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我也理解到就算是一人一票，當然也可能額外成立雇傭或者是委任的關係，這個我也瞭解。但是這邊的主張是，如果是勞動合作社，他的社員又實質上，就是以他加入成為社員，因為你章程可知他加入就是為了做這一件事，在這個基本前提底下不自動成立雇傭關係，對不對？我聽起來意思是這樣子，如果要成立雇傭、委任，那個是有另外一個合約之後的事，但是你入社，這個是勞動合作社，我已經講清楚，我入社就是一起去做某一個勞動，這邊的主張是入社的這一件事不自動成立雇傭關係，就是單純的社員關係，這應該是可以，到這個地步應該ok？關鍵還是在實際執行業務的時候。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "實際執行業務的時候，這邊看起來是有一些權益保障的基本想法，我們可不可以先往實際這邊來講一下，好比像提供勞務之社員與合作社不具雇傭關係，合作社應輔導其加入職業公會等等，這個「與合作社不具雇傭關係」的這一句話，是一個定性，也就是凡是提供勞務的社員就表示不具雇傭關係，或者這邊是一個前提條件，也就是「提供勞務，並且不具雇傭關係之社員……」，你知道我的意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是兩種不同的講法，第17條是組織定性，如果你是勞動合作社，社員提供勞務，不管怎麼樣都不會成立雇傭關係，以下適用；另外一種是，我也不覺得別的情況下不成立雇傭關係，「但是在不成立雇傭關係的前提下……」，我不曉得你們的真實意思或者是兩種都可以接受？或者只接受第一個？如果只接受第一個，這個爭議比較大；但是如果可以接受第二個，我們先界定在哪一些情況下不具雇傭關係，那樣的爭議會比較小，我們現在在設定爭議多大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我會不會講太快了？我講的是「建議」、「修改」內容裡面，第16項先不管的話，我們先看第17之1的合作社應輔導其加入職業公會的那一些人，那些人剛剛在討論的是，如果是合作社社員，是不是自動不具雇傭關係？或者也可能具有雇傭關係，是在我們討論那一些不具有雇傭關係的情況下才適用這一段？" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "合作社的原理是，合作社跟社員間，我們先撇開勞動合作社，剛剛政委提到，如果用主婦聯盟來舉例可能很清楚，員工是500人都跟合作社有雇傭關係，但是這些員工都是合作社的社員，他也加入合作社，所以這個是兩件事，他是社員，他是社員當然沒有雇傭關係，但是被合作社雇傭的時候，就當然有雇傭關係，這個是跟勞動部的講法是一致的。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "其他合作社都沒有問題，現在勞動合作社會出現問題，會參加合作社就是為了要提供勞務去工作，基本上他就是勞工，所以會落入是不是雇傭關係的認定、爭議。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我們為什麼主張原則上不具有雇傭關係？政委提到的是，在決策上先撇開準社員不講，在決策、出資上的權利是一致的，甚至認為他的相關規章是透過大會去規範的，大家一起討論出來的。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我想我們也認同勞動部的立場，他們為了照顧勞工，但是勞工真的是只有找一個老闆來照顧他就完全沒事了嗎？現在問題是在勞動合作社裡面找不到一個老闆，雇主該負的責任，羊毛全部出在羊身上，你現在認定他，他現在沒有辦法轉嫁，現在即使被認定好，我承認我的社員是雇傭關係，但是沒有一個老闆轉嫁老闆該出的份額？沒有，他還是自己出。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "如果不能參加公會，參加公會還有政府補助四成的勞健保，他也沒有，自己要出百分之百的份額，也沒有所謂雇主提撥退休金的部分，因此我們說實質上並沒有實質的效益，從實務上來看是沒有實質的效益，如果真的合作社，我們也不排除，如果真的很過分要迴避的話，那就進到法規的部分去處罰，我們看是不是可以先認定基本上在整個合作社的本質、原理、原則上是不具有雇傭關係，如果真的違反的時候，我們就進到處分的部分來處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我綜整一下，你剛剛的這個見解其實跟2008年內政部函是一樣的，「基於勞動合作社組織特性，並不因而即生雇傭關係」，他來就是為了勞動，勞方跟資方是同一批人，所以並不因而即生雇傭關係，但是你也不否認他在多角化經營的過程中，又會再成立一些別的雇傭關係，但是那個在所先不論，勞動合作社如果一開始就明訂要做這一些事的話，在章程裡面所列的這一些，不應即生雇傭關係，聽起來是相同立場的重新複述；這樣子的話，這個文字可能要稍微調整一下，不過沒有關係，就以你剛剛講的立場為準。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊有沒有什麼想法、見解之類的？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "應該這樣講，其實勞動部的立場是一以貫之，重申我們的立場，我覺得應該要尊重內政部這邊，針對第17條的文，一開始就如主席您所提到的，提供勞務的社員，與合作社法不具雇傭關係，這個是前提嗎？我們的問題是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個真的太硬了。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "這一句話是前提，我們可能要重申一次我們的立場。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "「與合作社不具雇傭關係」，這一句話我們同意刪除。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為你們之前已經有一個函，基於勞動合作社的組織特性，並不因而即生雇傭關係，即使你們重申這樣子的一個立場，但是這個也不應該放在社員權利保障，不應該放在第17條裡面，我真的是這樣覺得，而且這樣也是保護你們，就像剛剛講主婦聯盟的消費合作社那個例子，有一些明明是另有雇傭關係，就會變成是裡面有一些雇傭關係跟單純社員，這個時候如果特別把不具雇傭關係列在這裡，會產生方法上的混淆。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，提供勞務之社員，其實如果我們現在是寫無論與合作社是否具有合作關係，那就等於沒有寫，對不對？就是把「雇傭關係」四字放在這裡而已，我的具體建議是從第一個逗號到第二個逗號直接刪掉，如果你要講「雇傭關係」的話，我可以放在別的位置去講，不一定放在這裡去講，不然就會造成兩個型態中間的困擾。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看勞動部對於這個文字有沒有其他的指正？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我們想提出來的建議是，他說「不即生有雇傭關係」，我們表達尊重，但是我們要重申的是，如果具有雇傭關係，如果當他具有雇傭關係時，一定要確遵勞動基準法的相關規定來辦理，我們希望把這一句話能夠落實在這一個文字裡面，如果他具有雇傭關係，一定要……我大概說明一下，16跟17來解讀，不知道有沒有解讀錯。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "16基本上先把合作社排除掉，然後到了17這邊，就另訂一套規範，但是我們認為這樣的提議，如何來訂這一塊我們都尊重，但是我們要重申，如果具有雇傭關係，因為勞動基準法有一些是強制性的規範，比如我舉例子，像在第3目（1）有提到「其餘勞動條件應依社員代表大會通過」，我想跟各位作報告，很多的勞動條件，比如我舉例子，像你的產假、勞工的產假，這都是勞工的條件，這些勞動條件都是勞動基準法母法有強制性的規範，當他符合勞基法所要保障勞工時，基本上並不會因為你大會通過的規章來辦理，不可能牴觸勞動基準法的相關規定；換句話說，不可能授權到規章自己去訂，這些是原則。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "所以我想跟大家提出來的報告是，這裡的文字建議內政部回歸到剛剛提到的這個原則之下，這個原則如果可以獲得內政部的支持，文字的部分我們都可以來協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。我先釐清幾個名詞，這邊所提的勞務條件，勞動部這邊的意思是，相當於勞動基準法所講的勞動條件，雖然用詞不同，但是是相同的東西；第二，勞動基準法第1條明訂，勞工所訂之勞動條件不得低於本法之最低標準。勞動部這邊的主張是，即使雇主跟勞工是同一個人的一人公司情況，還是不得低於本法所低之最低標準，意思是這樣嗎？任何情況下勞基法都適用嗎？即使我開了一家公司，我自己就是董事長，我自己雇自己，我是不能違反勞基法意思是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我表達對您是完全尊重，倒也不是針對您的每一句話挑文字，不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒問題。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我代表部裡面來開這個會，我要把立場講得非常清楚，不管你是一人公司或者是幾人公司，合作社法相關規範，合作社法的權利義務關係我們都尊重，這個我們沒有意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是不能低於《勞基法》的保障？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我們要強調的是，你在這個法律關係之外，如果你另外有一個關係是成立雇傭的話，這時勞動基準法就會進入你這個強制的領域，我們就會要求你不能低於這樣的基本門檻，所以當你回到規章去規範時，基本上你不可能……我講一個比較粗魯的話，你如果訂出一個規章說沒有產假，我就不會接受，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "因此我們要強調的是，合作社法的基本規範沒有意見，但是對外的關係裡面，你去一個行政機關，你承攬一個勞務的採購，而這個勞務採購，你派這個人出去的時候，當他有可能成立雇傭關係時，很抱歉，我們對勞工的基本保障就會同步進來，而不可能牴觸勞基法最低門檻的規範。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。雖然您沒有回答一人公司的問題，但是我瞭解您的意思，可以算是有回答了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是這一段等於要加一個「但書」，可能在句點之後要另起一句話，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是「如果雇傭關係成立時，不得規避《勞動基準法》所訂之標準」。這個文字可以再修，但是你的意思是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "政委，我提一個比較具體的建議，我一直看著我們的科長，他會給我臉色看的，日子很難過的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還是直接請科長分享一下？（笑）" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我表達一下，我想提出這樣的建議，當合作社與社員具有雇傭關係時，我們要確遵勞動基準法的相關規定辦理，這個是第一句話先講清楚，當具有雇傭關係時，你一定要確定勞動基準法的相關規定辦理，以下的條文如果非屬雇傭關係的合作社社員，那這個時候再來討論細節的問題，我的意思是把明確打開。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你的意思是不見得放在這邊，要放在第16條去？第16條的排除是把有雇傭關係的在第16條裡，對不對？然後廠商為合作社時適用，第17條的「（」就不對了，因為你要講的其實好比像「不具雇傭關係之社員適用」，因為這裡講的才是人，而不是組織，對不對？至於到底什麼是雇傭關係或者是雇傭關係怎麼回事，我們等一下回第16條處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "勞動基準法的部分，你打算寫在第16條裡面或者是這個有一點不言自明，也就是有雇傭關係就適用勞動基準法，或者是你認為在第16條裡面就把這一件事講清楚？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我就不客氣，我直接說。第16條的部分，我們會希望界定在具有雇傭關係的合作社社員，那就是跟大家都一體適用了，不管你是不是合作社，因為這裡不見得是合作社，就是全部都一體適用。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第17條的部分，也就是針對非具有雇傭關係的合作社社員權益保障，我們用邏輯上先把這兩塊拉開，至於文字的部分，如果原則可以確認的話，細節的部分是不是請主席同意我們跟內政部來確認？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好的。不過，我們學哲學的，還是要分清楚充足的條件與必要的條件，我現在是社員A，我的合作社，他去接了政府機關某甲的案子，但是我在做這個案子的時候，跟合作社不具雇傭關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來合作社雇了我，去做另外一件事，其實跟政府無關，很可能是接了另一個某乙的案子，在那個案子上，我忽然間跟這一個合作社產生了雇傭關係，不過跟這個案子毫無關係，而且可能在事後發生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們如果把它寫成「非具雇傭關係之社員適用」，忽然間我的身分是否會轉變？因為我事後在另外一個案子上發生了雇傭關係，這個時候我在這邊會馬上失去資格嗎？我就直接第17條不能適用了，即使我跟他是沒有雇傭關係的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們是不是這個可以做一定程度的限制？好比像提供勞務之社員，在這一個契約範本的範圍之內不具雇傭關係就可以了，而不是身分上跟這個合作社不能從這個契約執行時間裡面不可以有雇傭關係。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我想跟政委報告，這個是契約的範本，一契約一範本，換句話說，我今天是合作社，然後我去勞務承攬一個經濟部的案子，然後我派了一些勞工去那邊工作，這個時候的法律關係，我們就界定在你派這個勞工、派你的社員到經濟部工作時，他有沒有具有勞工關係，我們就討論這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "至於這個案子之後，又去接衛福部的案子，是那一個合約裡面要討論的法律關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以你的意思是，這個不具不管要講「非具」或「不具」關係，意思都是限定這個契約，我們並不再做其他文字的討論修正。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個很ok，你會偏好「不具」或者是「非具」？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "科長說「非」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們就打「非具」。感謝科長的無聲貢獻（笑），我們就採用非屬語言訊息之貢獻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個定性，內政部應該也ok吧！就是這個括弧內的文字？因為之後17裡面跟16都會用這個括弧的文字來做定性。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "勞動部第16點是對於派駐勞工的定位，好像就是界定在雇傭關係裡面，是不是這樣？如果勞動合作社標到，必須指定要派駐勞工來的時候，就沒有第二句話，就只能適用雇傭關係？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是，我覺得他們不是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們的意思比較是，好比像現在有兩個除外條款，也就是在16裡面，我覺得勞動部的意思是，好比像假設16（3），可以說「但廠商為合作社，提供勞務者為非屬雇傭關係之社員時除外」，就是說他們的邏輯是要把非屬雇傭關係之社員替代掉所有你的排除條款所寫的社員，這樣就沒有意見，但是任何時候雇傭關係只要一成立，全部就回到勞基法；當然，勞工的定位……不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "政委、處長及各部會先進大家好，我想先補充一個小小的地方，我們採購的雙方先簡單說，也就是機關跟廠商來講，我們就廠商的部分就採購法本身其實是沒有做任何資格的限制，其實自然人或者是商號或者是團體或者是公司等等任何組織的形式都可以，也就是作為政府採購的廠商。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "今天討論的問題，其實是在採購客體的部分，我們的客體有供、採、勞，今天主要是討論勞務的部分，我們勞務也有分派遣、承攬，其實實務上這兩類不管是承攬的部分或者是派遣的部分，實務上其實都有很多合作社標的案例，這幾年持續一直都有。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "勞務承攬的部分，勞動部有訂定政府機關運用勞務的參考原則，這個是勞動部主管，因為涉及勞務，跟勞工的權益有關。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "另外針對派遣的部分，行政院人事行政總處有訂定派遣的注意事項，針對派遣的部分，因為是把人員派到機關內要受機關的指揮監督，其實行政院的派遣注意事項，直接明訂「廠商必須具有雇傭關係的勞工」，因此採購的客體如果是涉及派遣的時候，其實已經綁雇傭關係了。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "另外再來討論勞務承攬的部分，在勞動部所訂的參考原則裡面，又有分一般的勞務承攬跟派駐勞工的部分，如果是派駐勞工的部分，也就是派到機關場地時，這個派駐勞工雖然跟派遣不一樣，機關不能直接對他做指揮監督，但是對派駐勞工的部分，我們的參考原則一樣有綁雇傭關係，一樣必須要提供具有雇傭關係的勞工來提供這個服務。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "所以才會衍生出在我們採購客體涉及派遣，還有派駐勞工這一些區塊時，因為機關需求的標的等於需要的是雇傭關係的勞工，所以我們今天雖然廠商資格不限定是自然人或者是合作社或者是公司，但是你要提供這樣服務的時候，其實就會落入那個雇傭關係的部分，不曉得以上補充是不是有需要我再做其他的補充？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有關係，可以繼續，如果有朋友想補充，可以先補充完。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "我們上次也討論很多，這一個契約範本基本上是叫做「承攬契約」，但是把派駐放進來的時候，又去綁雇傭關係。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "承攬應該是在民法上是完成一定的工作，你說完成就好，管我派出去提供勞務的人關係是什麼，我覺得再綁這個關係有一點奇怪，今天在派遣上，我們尊重勞動部的見解，但是這個契約範本是承攬契約，裡面又加派駐，所以我們一直要綁雇傭，我們上次也討論很久。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "我就是剛才工程會所說的，我們在實務上的操作面，因為這個雇傭關係的議題一直沒有辦法解決，變成我們今天來得到照服員勞務承攬的合作社，有的是有採用雇傭關係，有的是用社員，但是因為沒有辦法提供足夠的勞務，因此提供給我們的勞務裡面，事實上還是有一些必須是雇傭關係。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "在這裡面最重要的一個點，也就是內政部再稍微瞭解一下，今天公家單位所編的價金裡面，就是包含雇主應付的保險費、健保費及離退職金，這個是由我們機構、單位來編的，因此今天如果不是雇傭關係的話，我們只好這樣操作，我們只好把這個錢扣下來。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "有些合作社跟其社員知道他去保雇主勞健保、離退職金對他們比較有用，因此他們願意是用雇傭關係，這一筆錢我們就會付，因此是在這裡，並不是沒有人幫他們保，而是由我們輔導會來編這一筆錢幫忙保。看社員及整個合作社哪一個對社員是有利的。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "還有另外一點是，並不是所有的合作社所提供的勞務都完全是有社員，因此勞務有部分還是有雇傭關係，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我想這個沒有人反對，這個是一般性的見解，如果現在有一些非屬雇傭關係的社員適用，如果同時還有另外一些別的雇傭關係，不知道是不是社員，說不定是準社員等等，這個就是雇傭，應該沒有人有不同的見解才對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在主要的爭點是，這個承攬自動成立雇傭，雇傭是不是在雇傭裡面？" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "報告政委，回應一下內政部先進提到的，他剛剛提到範本裡面有直接帶到派駐勞工，假設這個個案、招標案，機關的需求並不涉及派駐勞工時，其實這一些條款並不適用。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "其實所有的招標案都是個案，有一些比方像退輔會有一些機構，照服員就必須派駐場地在那邊註明，這時就會適用派駐勞工的相關規定，剛剛也有跟政委、各位先進報告，如果是適用派駐勞工相關規定時，我們就會依照勞動部所訂的參考原則，就是廠商提供的勞工必須具有雇傭關係，才可以符合這個標案的需求，所以後面會跟雇傭關係勾稽上，跟勞基法一整套都勾稽上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我會很明確問問題，這個問題是非常外行才會問出來的。運用勞務承攬參考原則裡面很明確說，除非必要，不要跟自然人成立承攬關係，對不對？盡可能都是找法人，不是找自然人，當然這可能也是考慮到自然人的保障裡面，大概不會有自己雇傭自己的情況，就儘量不要去找自然人來承攬。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個實質的意思是什麼？如果現在要某個派駐時，這一件事自然人是不可能達成，因為不可能自己雇傭自己，對不對？所以這一個部分不是只是儘量避免與自然人成立勞務承攬關係，而是有派駐情況的承攬，根本不可能用自然人，按照剛剛的見解，意思是這樣。我可以再說明更清楚一點，但是我剛剛聽起來你的定性是派駐一定是雇傭關係。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "報告政委，我剛剛講的部分其實勞動部訂的參考原則，我們在講一般勞務承攬是民法承攬，承攬沒有綁雇傭關係，這裡為何會儘量避免？只是要避免一些困擾而已，我替勞動部解釋一下，因為這邊並不是自然人沒有辦法來履行這個勞務，這個機關清潔的工作，我要找自然人直接發包給他，其實是可以的，我猜他們這裡寫儘量避免，我不知道他們參考原則訂定的原意。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "不過其實在勞務承攬，的確自然人可以、社團法人、財團法人什麼樣的組織都可以的，只是在所謂派駐勞工這一塊的部分，我們勞動部已經明白指出，在這個參考原則第2點用詞定義（3）的「派駐勞工」就有寫到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有看到，我們在看同一份文件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是自然人承攬，自然不可能雇傭自己，或者事實上是可以的？沒有這一種事吧！" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "完成這個勞務就是跟自然人承攬政府採購契約也ok。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我作為自然人承攬，就不會變成是派駐勞工嗎？或者是實質上變成派駐勞工，只是違反你們的這個定義？" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "應該就不會成為派駐勞工。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以就是派駐勞工直接排除掉自然人的型態，聽起來是這個意思。勞動部的見解也是相同的？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我想先跟政委、先進報告，如果是自然人承攬，基本上不會成立雇傭，但是為什麼勞動部這邊要寫「儘量避免與自然人成立勞務承攬關係」，有一個非常大的、重要的政策上目的，就是因為我們要保障勞工，我們非常不期待看到一個情形，就是很多人利用自然人承攬的方式，然後就規避掉勞動基準法相關的規範，到時勞工非常弱勢，在一個契約關係裡面平等議價的權利。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "因為參考原則是給行政機關用的，我們為了要保護這一些勞工的權益，希望能夠讓他得到基本上的勞動條件保障，我們才會用一個參考原則，我們建議行政機關要儘量地避免利用因為跟自然人成立勞動承攬的關係，而導致勞動基準法很多對勞工權益的保障，利用這樣的機會就把它lose掉，因此我們重申了立法政策上的原則，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實我剛剛看到你們儘量不要有自然人承攬的注意事項，其實跟我們現在對勞動合作社非屬雇傭關係人是非常像的，因為你說儘量不要用這個，但是你用了的話，要注意到A至E等等的事項，但是你希望儘量減少。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在在處理勞動合作社的時候，雖然不是儘量減少，但也希望有相同的保護、保障，我想這個部分是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想問的是，你們對派駐勞工定義裡的「雇傭」二字，這個是硬的嗎？或者是這個也有修改的空間？" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我想跟大家報告，有幾件事要利用這樣的機會作澄清：" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第一，參考原則是給行政機關在運用勞務承攬時一個參考的準則，充其量是行政指導或者是行政上協助，並沒有法律上的拘束力，這個是第一點。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第二，我們要重申因為參考原則是勞動部訂的，換句話說，一定會框架在勞動部的法定義務執掌裡面，如果超越了法定義務執掌的話，並不是勞動部的權限。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "那勞動部的法定業務執掌是什麼？我們一定是針對有勞雇關係或者是類似法律關係的勞工權益保障，所以當時我們才會訂出來說派駐的勞工是只受承攬、雇傭等等，是有這樣的歷史背景、政策目的及受限於一個法定業務執掌範疇內來做這樣的規範，我想先做這樣的說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有要補充的（笑）？所以聽起來……我講很白的白話，如果這個機關構，成立某個合約，然後他覺得在這個合約裡面，對派駐勞工的想法跟你們不一樣，其實你們也不能去罰他，因為這並不是一個法規命令，這個只是參考要點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，但是你們會希望至少在那邊即使對派駐勞工的定義不成立雇傭關係，或者即使竟然違背你們的意願去做自然人承攬，但是也不應該犧牲勞動權益，應該用某種別的方法去把勞動權益補到跟勞基法差不多的程度，但是已經超過你們的管轄範圍，對不對？聽起來意思是這樣子，當雇傭成立的時候，就是按照這個上面寫的，但是雇傭不成立的時候，可能很遺憾，但是希望盡可能跟相當於雇傭成立時有一樣的勞動保障。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之所以這邊不能這樣寫的原因是你們能夠寫的部分是雇傭關係成立的時候，聽起來白話文是這個意思；不過這樣聽起來很簡單。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "如果把「（3）」提供勞務者非屬雇傭關係之社員除外的話，因為除外有包含延長工時、加班這一類，照服員不管是在醫院或者是長照機關當中，24小時都是在執行任務的，所以我們不會讓他超時太嚴重，這不只影響社員自己的身心，也會影響到我們的病人及助理的安全。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這當然是這樣子。內政部請。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "實務上看到著名的部分，就是病患家屬請的照服員？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "政府請的。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "對於派駐的部分認定，希望是雇傭關係，為何不把它放到派遣裡面去？而是放在承攬的契約裡面？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我想投票單位對於希望用承攬標，或者是希望用派遣標是他的決定吧！我們當然可以儘量希望他用派遣標，但是如果要用承攬的話，好像不是法定主管機關可以置喙的。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "如果派駐感覺很像派遣的認定，但是把它包在承攬標裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "承攬裡面有一些派駐成分，我們現在在討論的是承攬裡面有一些派駐的情況。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "剛剛政委提到類似自然人的概念可以成立的話，那ok。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "文字都可以細調，我想意思跟現在「16（3）」的意思是非常接近了，至於「（4）」是不是要特別把合作社社員放在勞工外面，我就沒有那麼確定，因為還是提供勞務，對不對？好比提供勞務者，因為這裡的重點是不管怎麼樣都要落實，而不是他的身分好像不能同時成立勞工跟社員，這樣也怪怪的，所以就直接改成「者」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是「合作社除外」也是比較奇怪，因為合作社剛剛特別講了會有勞動法令適用之情況，所以這裡如果完全刪掉跟你們本來的意旨有違，你們的主張是非屬雇傭關係的合作社社員權利保障，所以就表示沒有勞動法令之適用，既然沒有勞動法令之適用，第3點不管怎麼寫，其實跟你們也沒有關係，是不是？這樣這個是可以刪掉的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在剩下來的就變成這個形狀，那就看科長想法（笑） 。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我們跟各位報告，所有行政機關，不管是廠商或者是一般的，如果有違反勞動法令，這個是強制規定，我們一定依法查處，誰都不可能例外，所以我想謝謝內政部支持我們一下，所以原則上不可能讓他在……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這絕對不可能。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "這真的是很抱歉。我們想要請示一下，第16條基本上簡單來講，是一般的規定了，其實並不需要把合作社特別再點出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是把它點出來的原因，難道不是因為一開始在承攬參考原則裡面派駐勞工裡面特別寫了「雇傭」嗎？所以才要在契約上把它稀釋掉？我們目的是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我想跟政委報告，我本來設計邏輯所提出來的建議，第16條的部分，原則上就適用於所有勞工，但是非屬具有勞雇關係的合作社社員時，第17條有特別的規範，他的邏輯設計是這樣子會比較清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然可以，但是我們在某一個地方去講說派駐勞工的那個定義裡面，雖然在承攬參考原則裡面寫了「雇傭」，但是在第17點的情況下不能算是「雇傭」，這一句話還是要扣合到某個地方去，我可以接受不放在第16點，但是你得放在某一個地方，這樣第17點的邏輯才成立；所以如果有更好的地方放，也沒有一定要放到第16點去，但是以現在的邏輯，放在第16點有一個好處，也就是有宣示性，因為派駐就已經是在第16點了，所以是放在派駐的地方，就可以把承攬參考原則的派駐勞工定義除外掉，因此這個是作用跟形式是在同一個地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要把作用放在別的地方，我也沒有意見，是達得到相同的作用就好了，只是挑一個形式上最近的地方放這個作用而已。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我們科長有交代我，我們科長真的厲害，他提出來的建議是「但廠商為合作社提供勞務者，非屬雇傭關係之社員時，就依第17點規定辦理」，這樣好不好？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好棒喔！真的是太棒了，真是優秀（笑），感謝科長的貢獻。我覺得這個是非常好，至少邏輯上是一致的。提供勞務者還是不錯，那個留著，第3點就不用再動它。工程會ok嗎？" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "細修就再說。下一個，衛福部很類似長照的契約。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先問一下衛福部的朋友，這樣子聽下來，對於這個精神有沒有什麼想法？或者也可以接受類似的概念？" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "跟主席報告，其實我們在與會前，我們花很多時間在討論是不是雇傭關係，即使我們內部也很多討論，剛才聽到各部會的意見、主張與決議，我們尊重這樣的看法。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "其實今天對於這個提案的附件4，他們有一個訴求，希望在我們特約的契約書範本都加一個，這邊適用勞基法的部分給予排除，可是剛剛其實針對是否邏輯法的適用，應該是先墊基於是否雇傭關係。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "應該先說為何會有這個契約書？我們的照管中心跟居服單位能夠有一個契約存在，因為我們的照管中心評估以後會派案給我們的居服單位，他會去做長照服務，有這樣的契約存在。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "合作社就有說他們認為他們跟社員間並不是雇傭關係，也希望在契約書的範本當中可以加但書來排除掉，如果真的不是勞動關係，必須這個合作社是要能夠說出來是不具這樣的勞動關係的雇傭關係，所以我們必須要立基在這樣的情況下來討論這個但書是不是要加上去。" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "其實也是希望合作社在做這樣的判定時，也要想到一個問題，也是維護自己社員跟這一些被服務的長照者，假設今天合作社的社員都是雇主時，他提供長照服務的過程中，如果有一些工傷存在的話，是不是有一些相對處理的機制來做處理，也希望合作社能夠納入參考，彼此有一個保障，衛福部補充說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。是不是可以看一下第17點，其實這個就是您剛才講到的，就是包含了傷害、失能、死亡，至少這三個項目，對不對？而且不得低於相同薪資參加職災等等的東西，所以我在想的是，其實你們的這個情況跟剛剛的承攬情況可以說是剛剛情況的子集，所以理論上你們那邊都會想要有保障才對，這邊沒有保障的，你們可以多講一些保障進去，但是這邊應該都是基礎的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我的具體建議是，我們有沒有可能參考這樣的字樣，你可以寫「非屬雇傭關係」之社員或者是適用時，另立一張你覺得重要的，你可以把它加的更緊，保障可以更多，但是這個至少不要比勞務採購契約範本要來得少，所以至少這一整段都可以複製貼上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以往這個方向去改的話，是不是麻煩等一下請同仁，拿我們今天的勞務採購契約第17點的部分，再看看同仁有沒有什麼在意的點，如果有的話，你們本來就可以加更多，像可以是什麼的兩倍或者是三倍之類的，或者是保險費用打個五折以上——都不是裁示，我在亂講（笑）——意思是只能比這個保障多，不能比這個保障少，如果可以的話，我覺得不要細到文字，就是帶回去，然後我們在社創會議的時候帶一個版本過來討論，可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "衛福部代表", "speech": "謝謝政委指示，我們會再研議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。我們在社創聯繫會議的時候再來看你們的文字，還有別的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "胡貝蒂", "speech": "17日、18日是社創的週年慶，大家可以呼朋引伴去逛逛。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "我想建議，因為內政部那邊應該會針對今天的建議來酌修這個文字，是不是在修正之後先給我們，讓我們瞭解一下如果有一些文字上的修正，我想我們先紀錄跟溝通，讓整個程序更溫和。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，我們也有資安無虞的共筆平台可以考慮一下，我們事前會提供，並不會到社創聯繫會議的時候再突襲大家，絕對不會這樣子，那就麻煩事務曾經，也就是等一下互相認識一下。內政部。" }, { "speaker": "內政部代表", "speech": "剛剛第2點有提到招標文件不當連結的那一塊，是不是可以有一個宣示性的作用？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得那個是不是可以直接提到社創會議，變成社創會議討論案的一部分？因為我們社創會議那個等於是行政院正式跨部會的會議，在那邊形成決議的是有一定的效力，你拿那個效力之後，才比較容易去各機關周知，因為各機關都在，我覺得這個文字是你們直接寫，就直接放在討論案裡面，如果大家沒有太多的意見，就拿那個去用比較方便，同樣的文字也事前跟幕僚討論一下。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "我提醒一下，南山人壽與保險員是不是有承攬關係，這個案子也吵得滿久了，法院也有很多的見解。" }, { "speaker": "工程會代表", "speech": "雖然我們今天討論過，並跟相關與會單位有做一些文字上的修正，但是還是有一些相關的個案事實，可能還是要回歸到到時採購契約所成立的條件怎麼樣，然後現場的工作樣態如何，我想那個部分是內政部也可能必須回過頭跟勞動合作社來做這樣的溝通說明，並不是我們訂的範本就完全沒有勞動基準法適用的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上很可能是相反的，我們會希望只有真的是讓他的社員完整參與，這就是為什麼一開始我會把準社員挑出來，因為這個型態真的有一些，就是讓他完整的社員參與，然後最基本的條件要超出我們自己在這邊寫的這一些基礎要求，等於要讓良幣驅逐劣幣，就是真的有完整願意負責任這一些才會進來適用，不要被不當的法令卡住。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實這個也是為什麼像之前處理好牧人的案子，非營利組織、社團法人，當然現在財團法人也可以了，要控一家公司的時候，我們要有一年觀察期的原因也是一樣的，我們不希望所有社團法人忽然間都說：「我們是社會企業要有控股公司。」而是我們希望當初提出來的目的，也就是使命的扣合、實質揭露的扣合，包含股東權益一開始就講清楚，而不是好像只是因為現在制度上開了這樣子的縫隙，所有的不肖業者就冒出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們準備實質社創會議擬稿的時候，也把這一點點出來會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個版本其實已經把所有組織型的部分都已經改成關係型了，採購契約本來的草案裡面有一堆組織型的東西，像「合作社社員」、「合作社形式」，我們現在都已經改成實質關係的認定了。很謝謝這個提醒，我們幾乎會原句拿到社創會議去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有什麼要提醒的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不好意思，這個會議overtime，超時了35分鐘。很感謝大家的貢獻，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Do you know what we do?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A little bit. They briefed me, but it is OK if you just..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Basically, we both use technology and digital to make culture more accessible, but in a live way. We don’t use digital technology to be on the Internet or in virtual things, but to augment real places, and to encourage people to be engaged." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "What I do at Panthea is the following: Panthea is a company specializing in surtitling, which means that we translate the shows, the live performing arts in several languages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In real time?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yes, using multiple reality glasses. The spectators wear the glasses. We use Epson technology. Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see that." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "The concept is to have the text while you watch the show and you can understand it." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "We started with this technology three years ago at the Avignon Festival. That was a co-production with the National Theater of Taipei, the National Theater and Concert Hall. We had the performance of King Lear by Shakespeare in French with supertitles in French, English, and Mandarin. Then the show went to perform here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Carl, have you worked with like automated translation services?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, not yet? You’re not currently streaming like from Google Translate?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "No, because this is not..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has to be pre-scripted?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yes, it doesn’t work for theater because the quality of the translation is not sufficient, and there is a latency time that is not acceptable for theater. It’s even more difficult than translating a book. If the computer is translating it, it’s even more difficult because it’s happening live, so you need the translation at the moment where people are speaking." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "For example, in German, the verb is at the end of the sentence so you cannot know beforehand what will be said." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is my domain, [laughs] so I know that." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "What we are using is augmented reality to ease the service for the end user. What the end user needs is to have the text in the right position at the right moment. Everything that technology can do, we use, but what technology cannot do, we do manually." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It doesn’t matter in the sense we are not looking at simplifying things. We are looking at adding a new service, and people can pay for that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Full accessibility." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is it AR in the sense that if I look away the text disappear, or does the text stay with me?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "We can parameter that. At the moment, we don’t see a lot of benefit of having interactivity. It’s good that the text is moving with your eyes, actually. It’s better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, because people are usually watching this way only anyway." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Not always. Sometimes, things will happen. There will be a blast in the back but the actor continues to speak. You are looking back, and you want to understand what he is saying." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, OK." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "In the opera, several people will sing at the same time from different places. You cannot look at both at the same time so you need the text to follow you. The technology allows it if you want." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To have an immersive theater." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s also possible to position it. That’s definitely possible. It’s the very beginning. As far as we know, there is no real application of smartglasses yet on the market for the public domain. There are some niche applications for surgery, for maintenance in hostile environments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Elevator maintenance is the classic example." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Even that, I’m not so sure about the benefits. Super-imposing reality is a help, but I know that when you interview maintenance people they say it’s good enough if they get the information in an earplug. There is a camera so a very skilled technician can analyze the situation, but then he will give his recommendations on the phone not super-imposing it on the screen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Super precise, \"You have to touch here,\" it very rarely happens actually." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yes, exactly. I’m not sure because of course technology evolves. It’s exciting on principle, but what I see in theater and the opera is that people need the text, and they have to move their head to find it, and they cannot have all languages at the same time." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s very useful, and performing arts is a growing sector with more and more needs. For example, when I was here two years ago, we had a discussion with the National Theater. It’s a leading place for the identity of Taiwan and the shining of its culture, so making it accessible to more people is very useful. You cannot expect everyone to speak Mandarin before they come." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, not at all. How good is the resolution of this technology? Is it 300 pixels wide? How many pixels?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "The resolution is 921,600 HD (horizontal 1280 x vertical 720 dots) x 3." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "This technology is now the one that we use, and the National Theater in London has purchased 50 of them to put for all people that are hearing impaired to get the translation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s good enough at least for the hearing impaired people." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s good. We have..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe not sign language though. I mean..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "We could have it in the future. For the moment we don’t, because sign language takes a lot of space in the field of vision. It’s complicated, but we are going to test probably next season with a theater in Gothenburg." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I ask, because early next year sign language will be an official language in Taiwan. It will be given the same status as other written languages. Of course, as you said, it’s not always possible to give room to a sign language, but even in a simplified form, it’s very much..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s definitely possible. Our software Spectitular(r) manages text and sound and image, but having video is not a problem. It’s all cloud-based, so it’s collaborative." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "There’s also people that prepare the translations who can do it... If the specialist of sign language is based in Taipei, and it’s happening in Taichung, you could have someone who is doing it in an online platform, and it’s automatically available." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This greatly interests me, because it will be a real need, and need will be by law." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "The big hurdles we see for the adoption of this is that it’s very new, because it’s one of the first applications in the world for smartglasses that is really useful. It’s a pioneer thing, so we need to find customers that want to take that risk to be the first. It’s a big hurdle at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "The second hurdle is the financing of it. We are talking to public institutions whose mission is to promote culture, so it ends to be accessible to as many people as possible, but a lot of them have budget constraints, so they are trying to go around the law. They say, \"We do the minimum possible,\" but they are not very motivated to do it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What about the other end, like social enterprise and charities for deaf people?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "We are talking to them. In the UK, it’s the first example that there is. It’s not happening with us, but we are in close discussion with them, and there is a sponsor, I think standard sponsor. Accenture is the company who sponsored the content, the programing, and then there is a body for art and cultural accessibility that has financed the National Theater for a certain number of shows per year." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "For the moment, I did not see a theater or an opera that was motivated enough on their own to decide to finance it. We do some tests. We did one at the Opera Garnier this year, the French National Opera, and they are interested, but they want to find financial resources for that." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "I’m an entrepreneur, I’m not a public financing person, but it’s happening now. What we see is that people get extremely excited and not the geek people. Not people like you and me, but the older people. People that cannot hear anymore." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "This summer at the opera we had... The most amazing thing was an old couple, probably 80 years old. They could hardly walk. They used these super futurist glasses." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "They were incredibly excited because they said, \"We could read it because it’s written... It’s, it’s high resolution, and it’s, uh, we can choose the brightness. And so, it works,\" which is, for us, the promise of a use case that really matches with a need and with people that have money to pay for the tickets as well. There is a great social benefit to it." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "This is what we are at. We do many other things but this is our most advanced technology. That’s what we’re most excited about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Great. I see Timescope has a Oculus Go as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have one at home." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I’m sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Probably in the office, I need better equipments." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I see you have a Vive. You have a Gear." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Yes." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I have no doubt you know about VR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What do you do?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Before explaining exactly what I do, I often start by a question. If you had the very cool power to step back in time, which place, which time would you love to see? What would it be for you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The beginning of the universe, of course. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s the first time I have this answer. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because then I can know whether there are multiverses, like why was the universe created? Just a great physics question." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "You’re interested in the why..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s a very scientific dream. Most people in France say the Revolution, the Middle Age. That’s very interesting." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We actually pretty much do this. My company is called Timescope. We develop time travel experiences thanks to virtual reality. We do two things actually." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We invented a hardware, which is called the Timescope machine, that you see here. It’s a VR terminal that works as a self-service system. You arrive in front of the machine. You are let’s say in a time now in a historical place. You say, \"I want to go back to that time.\" You pick a content. You adjust the headset to your height. Then you can start a 360-degree experience and go back in time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very smart because then you avoid the translation problem. You only have rotation. People will feel much better." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Exactly. You don’t have to put the headset. You don’t have to wear it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just discrete." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "You do the 360." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "You don’t get so sick." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "No translation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is one of the design that will avoid the VR sick. Congrats." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Because you are holding the machine. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We do the hardware. We also do the content. That’s our specific thing that we do. We invented the Timescope machine that is now installed into 30 places in France, Paris, Le Havre, Arras, north of France, soon in the south of France." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We also produce 3D content which is actually three kinds of content, content which are historical reconstructions where we do the whole production process from the generalizers of the historical sources to the 3D content at the end of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have AI to hallucinate color and details?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We use mainly CGI." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, it’s not really photogrammetry from old pictures. It’s more inspired by old pictures." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "It would be great if we could technically use..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because there’s a AI lab in Taiwan that takes very old or bad resolution, like 2040p, 240p. It use AI to hallucinogen 4K or 8K..." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Whoa, that’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...by imagining details basically. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s interesting. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re mostly CGI." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We gather all the historical sources. Then we model them. We are the specific touch about the CG that we use, that we produce, is that is very photorealistic and story-tells." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We also work on urban projects to show the future of locations, that can have past or that cannot be very rich in terms of past, on urban projects that need to be explained to the people. The Timescope is also a way to explain to the people how it will be." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "When we were talking about fake news, it’s very different. But it’s also a way to avoid rumors and to speak in a very powerful way to the people. You know that VR is a medium which is very, very strong." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is also you or is this somebody else?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "No. I know I have to check this out because I know that I saw that there is a Timescope that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is SomaSoft. This is not you." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "No, this is not me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very confusing branding. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I’m the one owning the Timescope brand. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe you can do something about it. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Definitely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have an Oculus version or you do, but it’s not on the store?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Oh, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is it not on the market of Oculus?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "This is not on the Oculus market. It’s on the terminals that we have. We don’t put it online because usually, the experiences are made to be tried on-site directly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know. You will have to file a trademark [laughs] case if you are going to put them." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I know I need to go for them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe not now." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Exactly. Would you like to try?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Let me see if I have battery left in my headset." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Meanwhile, have you worked with VR before or it’s all AR?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s all AR. We don’t do VR because we take people to performing arts. We don’t use VR at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the natural extension will be people watching at home the theater that’s streaming into the devices." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "I had this very, very interesting meeting at YouTube in New York City three years ago about this. We talked to the YouTube VR guru. I don’t remember her name. She’s very well-known in this field." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "She was paid by Google to experiment shooting in virtual reality. I seen the results. She said, \"When I filmed the concert and I showed it to people, they didn’t...the experience was pretty poorly rated because they compared it to the experience in the concert hall. And they said, ’Yeah, it’s not as good as it. It’s kind of faking the experience.’\"" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Then she said, \"The most rewarding result we had was I was filming stones on the beach...\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Natural tracks." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "\"...because you could access to details that you would not normally see.\" A bit like in a game where you can go, and then you explore something from the close...She said this is when we measure the satisfaction of the end users. This is where it’s most exciting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That they probably don’t need subtitles, or just don’t..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "No. This is to explain that allowing people through VR or AR to experience something at home has to be proven yet to be a benefit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So far, we’ve found maybe the planetarium really worked, like seeing how the solar system evolves..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s something you cannot see better in a different way, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly, yes." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "It’s unique value proposition. I guess that’s the key thing. It’s something you cannot do differently. She’s the connection." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "I’m not a designer of how it works. I focus only on the use case. I think on Timescope as well. In fact, when there is a connection with something that justifies your presence, it’s a huge added value. Then you can leave something that nobody else can leave." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[French] Yes. You are ready for me? No?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Sorry, I have no battery any more. I put it all on during the whole day !" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, OK. Live demo, it’s always like that." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I’m going to demo you these videos so that you can see the kind of contents that we produce. To give you an idea of it. For example, that’s Paris, the river bank, 400 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s exactly what the city hall looked like. The Galeries Lafayette, if you’ve ever come to Paris, you might have seen the gallery." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "The beginning of the 20th century, that’s the Eiffel Tower, which is the equivalent, I would say, of the 101 Tower. From this point of view, we have four timescopes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, this is beautiful." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Whoa. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We work on making it really realistic. Paris at the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The World Exposition." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "...the World Exposition, exactly. When the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Rafael was first killed, yes." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "...was read, yes. Then many other places in France. Sometimes it’s also very strong and very dramatic when we use World War I, when we reconstruct the trenches. This is for Kering, the luxury brand, where they are located." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That gives you an idea of the kind of content." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is great. I want to show you the Taiwan Digital Asset Library, the TTAL. The idea that I got from a participatory budgeting experience I had in Paris. I think it was 2015, or something. I was staying in the 3ème, and there was a petition in the participatory budgeting that says let’s make a 3D version of everything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I full voted for it, because I don’t have to be a citizen. I only have to provide a hotel address, so I voted for it. It didn’t get the budget." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I become Digital Minister. I can do whatever I want. Now we have a collaboration between the Ministry of Culture. I don’t know whether you’ve talked to their people, but they’re now very all-in in VR. They now use point cloud and videogrammetry, photogrammetry to scan all the historical buildings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They open source the content, using Creative Commons. Anyone can not just walk into a old temple, but actually do a lot of investive experiences. Using old photos, they can very easily do alternate texturing..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "That’s cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and make an easier pipeline to the kind of timescope that you’re producing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re offering this service and content for free, so every filmmaker around the world can use Taiwan as their backdrop. I think that this too have a lot of synergy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a easier timeline for us to produce, but you offer something unique that you can install on Taipei 101. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Definitely. I think that Taipei 101 is really like the observatory. You’re pointing at 101 Tower with big nice view would be such a cool experience to see how Taipei has changed over..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The next logical question is how expensive is it." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "It really depends on how..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Assuming we have the content. Assuming we produce the content." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Assuming that’s possible for you to produce the content. I know you have a 3D studios. I have met some of them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah?" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s possible." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We recommend if that’s the case, to give insights to the production so that they can produce something which has the potential..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, you could become like consultants or something." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "In terms of budget, to give you an idea. For a Timescope machine, usually depending on the number of timescopes, depending on the engagement period, which means more rental, we are between 1,000€ to 10,000€ a month." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds OK." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "1 to 10 gives you an idea. If it’s more, our main contracts are on a long-term basis, four years usually, since it’s installed on a historical location. It’s designed to stay in outdoor spaces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Usually that’s where we stand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I think this is a very good combination because there is already a lot of projects using ordinary Oculus that’s going on in Taiwan. Exactly as you said, if they compare it to the real thing, it’s disappointing." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Deceptive, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then they take out the glass and find the reality to be much better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they choose the language themselves, and they hold a machine. It’s like riding in something. We know that it will be a prepared experience, and people will subjectively rate it as better." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We have 96 percent of people who rate the experience as \"Wow\" and \"Cool.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good, because it’s the same as our text filing system, ha-ha..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...which we also co-create with people. Anything that involve a action by the person themself is better." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Definitely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s all passive, it’s just like watching a movie, then it doesn’t work..." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Completely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...because it’s low resolution, bad movie. [laughs] An active component I think is very important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fascinating to learn about your work, and I think the Ministry of Culture, in particular, will have a lot to talk about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will be in the C-LAB. You’ve been to the Social Innovation Lab, right?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The app, and the VR space. You remember it’s part of a larger place?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Larger Place is now converted into the C-LAB, the Taiwan Contemporary Culture Lab, which you did not see, because it is really new. It just opened a couple of months ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really new, but it is really good that we have this place dedicated for contemporary culture experimentation because it doesn’t have to make economic sense. People can just commission any kind of event and it’s sponsored by the Minister of Culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, two days later, I’m going to participate in Sleep 79, which is a lot of people just spending a lot of prime time in the carts that are shaped like this. I’m going to read out Mozilla Common Voice for two hours from 9:00 to 11:00, for people to sleep while I read for the AI corpus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Obviously, performative." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s cool. That’s interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Things like that can be done in this huge open space that it doesn’t make any economic sense. But the Minister of Culture is very willing to sponsor this kind of work, so it’s perfect for piloting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you want to convince a institution to buy 5,000 copies, they will not think about. But if it is just 100 or 50 copies for an experimental pilot, then it’s well within their small procurement budget. I think this is a great help." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "You think in our case, it would be the Minister of Culture who would be our direct plant, or it would be like a mix between you and the Ministry of Culture?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the Ministry of Culture has all the content. For you, this would be a higher approval rating delivery device for the project they’re already doing anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think they will actually commission you to do a historical storytelling of Taiwan in the old indigenous places because they’re paying this amount for real, true, huge teams to do a meticulous creation that’s not just historically correct but culturally significant." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re making into like Netflix movies and things. All the derivative parts, they have that already. They will be interested, I think, in this particular vehicle of delivery. You can provide consultant because their movies are two hours or three hours. Obviously, nobody is going to stand there for three hours..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...no matter how good the content is. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "They will recommend to do two minutes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Which two minutes to choose? Which two minutes to show which angle, even though they do film in 360, but which initial angle to project?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that is your specialty is like a choreographer or a director. I will keep an eye on the possible events where the Minister of Culture showcase their historical overlays. I think that is the better combination." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Another possibility is starting next year, we will have what we call original revitalization project, where we encourage all the townships of about 50K to 100K people to find its historical identity and historical stories. The idea is that people if they care about their history in that township, even if they go to Taipei for college, they will go back to make their home community better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If during basic education. You don’t give them something to do to associate with the local history. When they go to Taipei, they don’t come back anymore. [laughs] That is another possibility, which will not be the Ministry of Culture. It will be up to each municipal government." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Municipality, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They will have a lot of budget and care to curate this kind of history. In which case your other specialty, which is taking old photos and doing modeling. That becomes useful to them, because they don’t have the..." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "You want us to do modeling?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. They don’t have the ready specialty like the Ministry of Culture’s flagship projects do. They only have local universities to work with. That is one possibility." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "I think the next step would be, I mean the closest one, would be to talk to the Ministry of Culture about our technologies..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or just visit CLAB. You will see all the experiments going on." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "[French]" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "We have a French tech night." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "We have a French tech night tomorrow." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Tomorrow, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "It’s not international." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know, but..." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Tech for Good, is that the name or no..." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I don’t remember." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "No. I think it’s another thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a different thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The CLAB is now Ministry of Culture’s premier place to showcase emergent technology that interacts with culture." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "In the case of Panthea, we have two contacts here that are in charge of self-acting for the national theater, with Cami, who we worked with them three years ago on the Avignon project." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "If we were to imagine something here, we would have people to interact with to hire for this project for the content, and to collaborate with people with the organizations of hearing impairment. We would not start out of the blue from the distance, which is very good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Another possibility is to start a small project, but enlist the help of one of our international startup hubs. There is one in Linkou, in New Taipei City, called the Startup Terrace. There’s a lot of companies working in that dimension as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other way is to think outside of Taipei, because I’m sure you are connected with the Taipei theme anyway. There is another city called Kaohsiung. It’s in the south part of Taiwan. They are actually in charge of most of the 3D modeling and the other industries, even though they’re not very loud about it, but they’re actually very active in terms of AVR." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Kaohsiung city government has a space dedicated to immersive experiences. It showcases a place they call the Kosmos, K-O-S-M-O-S, and they just started. I think they’re also be very willing to look into showcases similar to the natural theater one." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Do you know if there is something in Taichung?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taichung, there is of course the Taichung Opera House." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "That’s why I’m asking. I’m wondering if there is also a hub for innovation and tech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is kind of independently operated, the Taichung Opera. If you do it in an accessibility angle, I can connect you with people from Taichung City that cares about the elders. We had our social enterprise submit in Taichung." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I know it is a priority for them to increase participation of the elderly and the otherwise disabled people so that they reintegrate into the society instead of being alone at home. From that angle, I know the person, but from the tech angle, I don’t really know." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Do you know the people from Tower 101?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, of course." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "If you could connect to us would be good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The previous chair of 101, Christina Sung of SERT.tw, I think is perhaps a good contact, because, first, she knows the right people, but also that she really cares about social entrepreneurship. She manages one of our independent social innovation investment board." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She has also access to people who really want to make the experience better for the arts and the society, rather than just from a purely financial return perspective. She’s one of the leading impact investors, so I think it’s a easier angle, if she think it’s a good fit." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Usually you can take 10 days to edit this transcript until you can put on all the relevant URLs, the films, the YouTube that you want to show or whatever. As long as both of you are ready, even before the 10 days, you can tell me and I will publish online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once we publish this transcript, then the introductions can happen in a public way, because I don’t do exclusives, it will need to be in public knowledge." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "If you introduce, it’s..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a link to our transcript..." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "To our...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...full text that you can click online. Everybody can see it. If you’re interested, here is this email that you can write to." }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "We need to create a specific URL?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, you don’t have to do anything. I will do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m a radically transparent minister. The way we work is very simple. On my name card, there is a website, PDIS.tw. Once you go there, you will see the English version. Basically, this is everything that I did and everything that I had a conversation with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, people from RedHat just visited. If you click \"RedHat Visit,\" you will see exactly who said what, where, why. I did that for all the meetings, even internal meetings that I’m a chair of." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Did we say smart things? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s why you’re given 10 days to edit, so you can edit to make yourself sound smarter. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s true for like more than 3,000 people that I spoke with as a minister. This is also a good machine learning process to understand the language alignment and automated translation, and stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once our conversation gets published here, I will then send an email with the published link." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "I get it. I understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you are ready before 10 days, just let me know so we can publish it. Is that OK with you?" }, { "speaker": "Carl de Poncins", "speech": "Yes, definitely. Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Adrien Sadoka", "speech": "Thank you so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "各位朋友大家好，選舉最後十天，我們政策控姚文智還是來到空總的社創中心，今天來談一下我做這個模型大巨蛋、電視上也放了很多的VCR，看看可不可以利用更新的科技VR來看看大巨蛋未來的改變。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我們今天特別邀請到唐鳳政委，唐鳳政委你好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Hello、Hello。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "又碰面了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "又碰面了，同一個地方，也是空總社創中心、也是Office Hour。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "到底我是主人，還是你是主人？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有關係，大家都一起是主人。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "你們有看過這個模型嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "這個是？這個是台北蝶翼。這個是什麼呢？這個其實是人工基盤，這個在很多城市都有這樣運用，坦白說這也不是我發明的，我是在構想大巨蛋解決方案的時候，覺得說如果大家看一下這一塊就是鐵路局的台北機廠，這一塊是松菸文創，就是那個旅館，這個是巨蛋，巨蛋旁邊的商場、電影院，這個是旅館，這一條是忠孝東路，這裡是光復國小、這個是國父紀念館，過幾天要舉行金馬獎，大家知道，國父紀念館的園區，這個是台北市議會，那這個公園原來在逸仙路。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子嗎？所以這樣看就看得到101嗎？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "對，非常近。這整個區域一方面是文創、體育，這個是國父紀念館，是文化專業的地方，這邊是公園；如果我們可以把忠孝東路做一個處理的話，這一塊區域是可以連結起來，但是它很多有些……空間裡面若過度的設計，其實可以處理掉，國父紀念館有太多的水泥鋪面或者水泥構造物，還有停車場可以地下化。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "最厲害是這個，這個公園很可惜，你去過這個公園？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "去過。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "你去過？是跨年晚會嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有，不太有人的時候去。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "其實真的不太有人，他的利用率真的很低，你如果這個公園如果比照大安森林公園，他的利用率真的比較小。所以我是這樣想，我們過去這四年，為了整個大巨蛋的工安、疏散還有環境，討論非常久，一直都解決不了，那當然他有原來設計的因素，很多朋友都不知道，我們大巨蛋地下11米，你知道嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不知道，很誠實地說不知道。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "你知道為什麼嗎？因為我們這邊有松山機場，巨蛋當時要蓋的時候，就有很高的限制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我知道。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "但是你看距離這個高樓也沒有很遠，其實我們那個高度的限制，後來有些都經過一些特許的申請就突破了，但是當年馬市長的時候就照本宣科，結果搞的巨蛋要下地，下地以至於現在疏散發生非常多問題，因為這麼多東西下面又有板南線、又有國父紀念館站，所以現在糾纏不清，沒有辦法解決，所以我在想這個區域如果可以設計出來這樣一個人工基盤，剛好跨過忠孝東路，大概連結在巨蛋的地上三層的地方，在這個建築開疏散，那這個巨蛋在地下室的地方，就是在忠孝東路的下面，其實有80米的通道，其實是地下層可以疏散、地面層可以疏散，現在加地上層，就是三層的疏散。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "疏散效率變高。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "疏散效率就三倍。我想透過這樣的結合，這邊是一個緩波，有的可以做跑步或者是散布，甚至是自行車道都可以，這整體來做設計，這邊連結到這樣的一大片，逸仙路未來也可以偏向行人步道，就變成一個很大的東區大公園，而且是比較立體的公園，頂多大概有三倍的大安森林公園，雖然中間有很多的建物，但是可以把很多……尤其這邊，我們這邊的公園很多水泥構造物，可以連結起來，變得很漂亮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以一個是地下化、一個是互相連結，也不是以後一定最大多大，先從這邊開始，然後慢慢長大，意思是這樣子？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "當然也只能長這麼大。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最多就長這麼大。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "市政府未來有機會要搬走，也可以考慮，因為這邊的利用情況並不是太好。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我這個構想越來最早是希望忠孝東路下地，這個就是地下通道，下地的話就是平面的公園，但是有兩個問題，第一個是國父紀念館站在這裡，下面是板南線，下面的幅度非常受到緊迫；第二個是板南線上蓋地下車道，會比較敏感，風險高，交通的影響大，這樣的造價比較便宜，工程單位估計大概是3至5億，整頓整個地方的公園大概是添個幾億，花的錢不會太多，但是整個東區會改觀，為什麼？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "因為這個東區大公園，除了在解決巨蛋疏散、環境，重點是美學，因為原來這個巨蛋太壓迫了，美學解決以後，東區的經濟發展我覺得可以同時解決，為什麼？因為東區這幾年來房價高漲，但是都是年輕人消費，年輕人這幾年的薪資漲幅很低或者是沒有什麼漲幅，所以現在的店面都出租，商業動能不足，但是未來這個做好以後，巨蛋可以打棒球、演唱會，國父紀念館有文化活動。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "這邊的一樓我講一下，未來這邊的一樓是架空，可以穿透為公眾使用，就不是一樓的百貨公司，那就是穿透，穿透的居民有一些空間可以給他們利用，光復國小也缺很多室內的運動場地，也可以共同運用。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "這邊的樹木可以保固，未來這個公園文化的人口、體育的人口、親子活動都會帶來東區，東區會注入很大的商業動能，除了解決巨蛋的問題，增加一個大公園還希望能夠把東區的商業動能蓋起來。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "當然我另外還有主張辦「東區生活節」，把以前最繁榮的，大家津津樂道的東區再次復活，當然這邊還是很多老舊的房子，這邊未來可以進行都更，這個公園很特別，叫做「Grand Dome Park」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "東區大公園。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "有人說基盤怎麼樣…不是雞排喔！是人工平台的意思（笑）；其實這也不是我發明的，現在高雄火車站，民進黨政府的高雄火車站，未來就有這樣的設計。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "台中大火車站也有這樣的設計，因為這個是城市逐步立體化，解決它的交通動線、解決它的空間利用，兼具設計美學的做法，未來高雄很快就快完工了，台中有的部分已經上去了，所以這樣的一個設計，我認為是目前解決巨蛋一個最好的方法，花費不多，增加一個公園，疏散工安可以同步設計，同時讓東區復活，所以一據數德。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣講真的比較清楚，因為之前看這個VCR的時候，比較難想像人實際上疏散到底是怎麼走，比較像一個示意圖，但是有模型是好很多。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "因為有三層，模型的比例其實不容易看得出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一看不清楚，是架在三樓的這個位置。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "模型有車子，車子是非常非常小。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個建築物是3D print出來？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以很快可以做出改變，就是如果要試著試一下地下化就是3D可以做出來。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "可以，幾萬塊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，滿不錯的，我剛剛說的VCR是這樣斷（播放影片）。這樣就比較清楚了，所以這整個是東區大公園？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "對，綠化之後就比較清楚了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好啊！" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我們本來撒了很多綠粉，現在清掉了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個清楚了。我記得上次來這邊討論的時候，講的是有一些比較大規模的，是讓大家一起的群眾智慧一起來提出意見，就是徵見，像這樣的東西，剛剛這樣子您講得比較清楚，但是如果只靠2維的是比較難瞭解，所以後來我們就一直在想說是不是……主要是看了VCR之後，是不是有一些比較簡單的方法，也不花錢的方法，讓所有想要提出不同設計方法的，或者是至少想要知道這三層是什麼感覺，有沒有一個方法可以去做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛好因為這一個是有一個insiteVR，我們最近正在測試，我們大部分用的是一個開放原始碼的軟體，叫做「High Fidelity」，但是insite這支VCR拍的比較……所以我們試一下，它的感覺是這樣子（投影），像你剛剛解釋的這個過程是可以錄下來的，就像你剛剛指的是這樣，最大的差別是，怎麼在模型外面，但是這個可以講一講進去之後就跑到裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "裡面也不只有一個人，就是非常多人用各種不同的VR，然後等於先環繞著他，聽一次解釋，解釋之後可能就小組帶開，就一邊討論疏散的樣子，另外一邊討論公園接起來的樣子，每一個想到的想法，可以在這邊留言，所以留言就是說會儲存每一個人看到那一個畫面的快照，還有跟他用講的或者是打字的，就是說這邊可以怎麼樣更好，最後可以輸出一份有一點像小組討論的共同建議一樣，這樣子就可以變成是說我們一次次的在有方案A、方案B、方案C去討論，但是討論的時候是在裡面討論，不一定要在外面看。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "製作這個要多久時間？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是非常好的問題，我們實際來看，從我們實際上拿到剛剛的這個建模，一直到我們實際把這個東西做好，好像只花了三天的時間。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "真的嗎？那我們選舉還有10天，還可以（笑） 。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們開一下High Fidelity，因為這個3D列印是把SketchUp的軟體做的，所以是可以把SketchUp倒進High Fidelity裡面，所以可以有一個互動的感覺，就是把這一整個東西變成在High Fidelity裡面，讓大家實際去互動。有沒有想要嘗試一下？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "好啊！現在嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在有兩個畫面，一個是portable的，這個是可行的，直接可以看到房子，按了之後就進去，另外一個是跟這個連動的，你在這邊看到在外面也看得到，所以我們可以示範一下。（示範戴VR）" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "這樣影像會show出去嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "會打螢幕，然後show出去。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我本來想要委託一個專業公司做，本來還包括空拍。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "真的？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "實體的空拍，然後鍵入。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "把台北空拍，然後建模？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "費用非常高，好像這裡飛行也有很多管制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這是接下來《無人載具創新實驗條例》可以幫忙處理的。不過我想這整個設計的提案如果是有完整的建模，其實在裡面討論並不困難，你現在如果戴上去應該會看到類似這樣子的模型。（協助姚文智戴VR）等一下可以測試留言的功能，但是同時會讓更多人像在影片當中一起討論這當中的每一個細節。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "你能進來嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我可以進去，但是現在因為我們另外一個VR也在這邊，所以我們等一下再測一下兩機連動的情況，我們稍微體驗一下不只在外面看，然後走進去一起討論這個感受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以好比像假設大家都實際在這個上面走過一遍，給了一些建議，我不知道網友有沒有特別想要問或者是互動的部分，我們小編有任何人留言嗎？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "大家覺得這樣有趣嗎？你覺得呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得很好玩，我覺得這樣子解釋一遍，尤其是這個是有縱深，我覺得這是大家來討論這樣一件事，這個是非常創新的想法，我們在社會創新實驗中心的特色，是創新讓社會來參與，讓整個社會看到這個創新，也能夠擴散這個創新，所以未來如果你這個建模的檔案適度地公開……" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "這個公開沒有問題啊！沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我相信有很多設計師的朋友。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我們建模都是我們辦公室的年輕人，一位是正在考建築師，他在考試來幫忙，所以這一些跟基本的建模都是他做的，然後有幾個……其實包括我兒子，我兒子幫忙繪圖，我兒子學設計的，他們幾個建的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個是幾天做出來的？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "花了一陣子，因為為了要表現手繪的感覺，你知道嘛！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，尤其是畫上去的。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我們有給你raw data，要表現手繪的感覺。因為整個VR要花好多錢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。我想我們現在就是以有限的設時間，大概是兩、三天show一下建模起來的感覺，如果需要大規模討論的話，可能需要一個月左右的時間準備。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "選舉延長好了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是這樣子嗎？（笑）如果之後要做政策討論的時候，我們再來好好討論這一個規劃程序，但是有建模、3D列印、VR，這個用同一個素材是比較省錢的做法。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "唐政委講的是各種創新的運用，我其實比較想提醒的是，我們對這個城市的發展，我覺得有幾個原則，大家未來在規劃設計的時候可以思考，第一個是更立體化，我觀察台北城市，過去都比較平的思考，巨蛋的事情大家拘泥在……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "拘泥在平面圖的感覺。沒有往這一種方式去思考，確實是。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "其實說實在，如果我有市政府的資源……如果我在那個position，我有市政府的資源，這個東西我早就做了，搞不好就可以提供大家來討論有什麼特別的，討論的範圍可以更廣，搞不好市政府要怎麼用、怎麼立體化。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你真的打算要移市政府……" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "我覺得可以考慮，那是真的可以考慮。為什麼？因為它在整個建築……真的滿醜陋的在整個商業區，是可以調整，我另外一個思考，剛剛講的是立體化，另外一個思考是區域的分工，所以市政府一定要在這裡嗎？不一定，這邊如果是金融商業，或者是fashion，或者是各種產業，現在西區沒落，市政府移到別的地方，重新來調整我們的空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也是有道理，就是政治中心移動，大家的人潮也會跟著移動。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "不過我很喜歡討論一個觀念，空間來談趨勢改革，空間調整讓整個問題就迎刃而解，我覺得我思考這裡就不是巨蛋，希望把東區可以復興起來，他的各種交通、生活、消費、商業的各種思考都在裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "希望有機會可以實現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實是一個社會創新，挺有意思的想法，今天非常非常謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "應該我是主人（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "網友提問", "speech": "台北之翼要做逃生區，然後又有植皮的綠化，空間上規劃綠地的比例是多少？" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "這比例很難說，一方面要透空，一方面要配合旁邊的路樹，因為希望旁邊保留，怎麼樣閃過，怎麼樣讓它兼具逃生、又兼具植栽綠美化等各種功能，是需要透過設計，比例我覺得現在沒有辦法那麼清楚地說明，因為那個就要進入實質的設計。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個就是如果檔案放出來，大家可以幫忙算的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看網友還有沒有其他提問？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那我們今天就先到這邊，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "姚文智", "speech": "謝謝，有趣，謝謝各位網友參加。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "Hello。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Hello。今天是來拜會AI Labs，也看到AI Labs現在就有一個全新的空間、有一個新的樓層。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "對，剛好就是第一天辦公室開放。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是這樣？剛裝潢完。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "對，還可以聞到那個味道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以表示你們要再hire新的人了？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "對，我們現在第三個辦公室，然後希望在今年年底可以到100人的規模。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，因為我記得最早來的時候，那時我們談的是人機介面，醫學跟生物的部分，後來你們網站上又出現這個智慧城市作為一個pillar，就是一個標竿。之前我們在高軟園區對談的時候，因為我是預錄，沒有聽到你的論述，所以想說智慧城市的部分，能不能跟我們介紹一下？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我們最主要三個主軸，第一個就是醫療，剛剛有談到；還有現在在社創，我們有雅婷AI鋼琴師，這就是跟人機介面的研究。其實我們在跟各個城市，AI Lab有一個「智慧城市」的vision。智慧城市的vision，跟大家聽到一般的智慧城市，像人臉辨識——在各個地方用人臉辨識，去看一個 policy goal——不一樣的地方，其實我們在臺灣講的智慧城市，就是我們跟臺灣其實有各個產業先進，還有各個市民他們討論到智慧城市，其實你會發現到我們在講人工智慧的智慧城市，最主要的還是humanity，你怎麼利用人工智慧給這個市民做到最好的照顧。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "以做到最好照顧的這個角度來講，不管是在醫療、不管是在交通、不管是在居住、不管是在安全，其實在每一個地方不同的時間、不同的狀況，我們希望有一個很好的model去設這個人，以人為本的智慧城市。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "其實我上一次在高軟，就是我們上一次一起去的這個活動，我們講到智慧城市，簡單來講就是這個picture，我們在臺灣最主要以人來講，一個市民要怎麼去把它做到最好的照顧？其實當我們在講一個城市的問題，我覺得過去很多人講智慧城市，智慧城市過去到現在到底有幾個不同階段的差別？其實你可以看到最早可能就是問題驅動，比如發生事情了，我們去看怎麼解決。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "路面坑洞怎麼樣很快修好？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我要怎麼report這個issue，然後這個issue再take action，普悠瑪號出了事故之後，我們再做take action，那個是發生事情之後，我們以解決問題的角度來處理這個事情。解決問題的原則就是有時候我講的是悲情驅動，有很多讓人感動的事情發生，然後才去改變。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "第二個階段，其實開始大家在講大數據之後，開始大家有這一種cloud的這一種Big Data，智慧城市的角度才慢慢進入數據驅動，我們才能講Data Driven，比如過去一年交通量、十字路口要怎麼設計，從過去一年的交通量，我們來改進下一年我們的施政，我們怎麼改進交通路口的號誌，那個是數據驅動，我們透過對過去資料的統計、大數據，來改善未來一年的管理。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "當我們講到AI Driven，第三階段就是這幾年你可以講說智慧城市第三階段的話，其實我們講AI Driven，我們做大數據之外，我們要在大數據上去訓練這一種決策的model，用決策model來補足人不足的地方，比如過去很多交通事故，需要人去monitor，你才會知道有交通事故，你才可以去做通報、處理，其實這一種交通的資料，我們都已經可以蒐集到的，都已經在一個center大數據，我們就可以訓練model。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "當人去做交通通報或者做決策的部分，我們就可以用人工智慧學習起來，就是讓這一種交通事故，過去人可能會catch到10％的這一種事故，我們其實用人工智慧，我們可以catch到90％多的交通事故，可以很快地做反映，這個是我們講的，當每個人在不同的時間、不同的地點，我們需要給他妥善照顧的時候，我們用人工智慧去訓練model，去給他最好的照顧。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，所以這其實有點像當初個人電腦（personal computer）出來的「personal」的意思，不是好像大家都是大數據的觸角，而是每個人可以按照他實際的需求，實際地反映他的需求，甚至是即時的需求，好像是他跟他的隱私、integrity這一些，我們最在意的東西是一起長大的，而不是好像說你為了一些效率，你得要做出犧牲或做出取捨。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "沒錯。很多單位會講說智慧城市好像對人的監控，其實我們在這邊的思維都不是，我們一定是要在確保人的隱私、integrity 以上，我們再去增加人的便利性。其實這個東西你可以想像比如說從Data Driven大數據驅動跟AI Driven有什麼不一樣的地方是，Data Driven其實有一點像我們過去講的「80/20法則」，我們在賣商品，可能就是賣top 5的商品，也就是我們在提供市民服務的時候，我依照過去的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我能量有限……" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "對，我就是滿足80％。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是最常用的80％。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "當我們講AI Driven的時候，什麼叫AI Driven？其實就是後來大家講的這一種長尾（long tail）的觀念，就是你要照顧的並不是只有80％的user，其實你要儘量地依照城市大數據、個人大數據，人在不同的地方有不同的照顧，這樣的話，你需要在對的時間做對的decision，這樣的話，當你每個人做到最好照顧的時候，你才能真正照顧好每一個人，不然就會有那一種少數的族群會有starvation的狀態，就是沒有辦法做到……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "……等於越來越會被排除，如果不去做的話。其實像空總社創中心也是一個很好的例子，可能一個活動40個人來、100個人來，但是只要有一位有輪椅上的需求，我們就專門弄一個電梯，他就可以搭到二樓，不需要用很辛苦的爬梯機這一些。當然硬體上一定有所取捨，可是我們在AI的這個思維上就不一定了，因為很多東西你可以用軟體來定義。你今天來這個空間，我需要的是這些需要，我就重新用軟體定義這個空間，到滿足剛剛好這些人的需要。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "沒錯。所以智慧城市的思路是依照那個原則，對市民的食、衣、住、行各個方面，我們利用城市的資料、城市的大數據，我們訓練出增加市民，不管是便利性、安全性，還是他的照護性，像這一種遠距醫療，我們對他有不同的安排。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。因為我們在高軟的時候，其實聽眾也事前有問我一些問題，那因為聽眾也有問說因為我們知道所謂Smart City在AI Labs第一個project其實在台南做的，就是台南無人機這一整套的project。當然大家的一個提問是說，為什麼是台南，大家會想說AI不是都在台北嗎？為什麼挑台南？這個有沒有比較簡單回答？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我覺得那個其實也是一個很偶然的事情，就是去年齊柏林發生事故之後，那時候其實我們AI Labs對這一個事情也很有感覺，齊柏林是從一個不同的角度去看城市的問題，所以我們才講說這個是齊柏林的視角，過去大家都沒有從這個角度去看城市的美麗與哀愁，我覺得這個東西是滿innovative。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "第二個，當他出了事之後，大家會覺得說這麼好的一個人有這麼好的一個想法，這樣就走了，所以那時候我們就去看齊導那時候過去的採訪，為什麼這個事情不能用無人機來完成？這個為什麼要他親身去做，我們有沒有什麼辦法去把齊柏林的精神保留下來，所以那時候AI Labs有一點想法，就是說有沒有可能去學習齊柏林的精神。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我們那時候在採訪的時候，其實無人機沒有辦法像專業的導演可以自動選景、運鏡、可以拍攝到好的角度、可以有好的畫質，也沒有辦法做到那一種專業的選色、調色的部分。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "所以我們就依照他講的這幾個題目開始去做，所謂自動選景、自動運鏡，訓練無人機可以去做自動飛行之後，去拍360度角度的影片，也就是說這個無人機其實看了……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他就不用選角，因為每個都拍到。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "然後之後再用人工智慧的演算法，我們去學習齊柏林選景、運鏡的這一種方法，就是當無人機把這一條路拍好之後，其他360度角度拍了，然後依照你的題目，你是要山、你是要水，還是你需要道路，還是你需要追蹤一個物體，我們告訴這個AI演算法，它就會依照這個精神去做、學習專業攝影師的運鏡。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "當然人工智慧學習的不一定是比較好，但是事實上它已經可以做到我們可以依照不同的主題，一個360度的影像就可以把它做出不同的運鏡。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "這樣的話，再往下發展其實就很有趣了，當我們做了一個360度的運鏡之後，我們發現其實一個影片有不同的呈現方法，我們是不是可以把整個台南市都拍完？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "也就是說依照各個不同的部門、你有不同的需要，你需要看路上停車格的問題，你需要看到交通號誌的問題，你想算看看這一段路、traffic lights是不是夠。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "甚至你要做國土規劃，你要抓地形、地貌的變化等等。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "對，你都可以用同樣的大數據，你不需要每個不同的部門有自己的無人機團隊，買自己的無人機，你聽我們都已經拍完了，你只要在我們這個大數據平台上去做，就可以做運算。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "所謂其實那時候我們是一個很簡單的想法，開始發想之後，那時候為什麼是（選擇）台南？我其實本來只是發表一篇文章在FB。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，我記得有看到那篇文章。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "那時候其實也是一個簡單的想法，很快的是南科、成大航太系。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們直接來找你？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "就來找我們，就問我們可不可以籌組一個無人機的團隊，很快的其實那時台南市長也就是現在的賴院長，他說：「我們要支持這個行為。」所以可以想說不管是技術方面或者是不管是無人機的硬體上，不管是市政府法規方面，都要有很好的……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "立刻就可以疏通排解。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "所以我們在一個月內，就開始做無人機學習齊柏林的活動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以很多是首長的意志。我在院裡觀察到賴院長，也就是當時的賴市長，他如果覺得一個東西是一件好事，而且各部門覺得這個是共同價值的話，這不是以月，而是以週為計算，一、兩週之內就會協調到一個程度，所以這真的滿重要。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我覺得這個產業在一個地方可以發展起來，我其實常常在很多地方是需要陽光、空氣、水，因為新的產業一定會遇到很多新的法規問題，過去可能是完全沒有定義，你一定需要相關的部門，一方面或者是監理沙盒或怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "總之要吸收風險。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "所謂「空氣」就是說，我們一定要以problem solving，軟體的思維去解決你不能說這個是無聊的問題、這個訂單在哪裡，當你看到問題、你看到可以用新科技去解決的時候，這樣的軟體思維是我們來試看看，然後把這個鄉民聚集起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且說不定你又解決了別的不相干的問題，就是鄉民的力量。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "沒錯。所謂的「水」，大家有錢出錢、有力出力，把這一些東西放在一起，然後開始有一些計畫去運行。當然有資金方面的幫助，那當然就是可以讓火可以燒得更快、更旺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這樣聽起來，這一些成功的這三個要素，並不是說一定要是金融中心、大都會或者什麼，人口非常密集的這個區域？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我覺得其實尤其是像軟體這個產業，大家常常講說政府五缺或什麼，但軟體產業相當於來講是比較……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，完全沒有這些問題。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "比較沒有這些問題。尤其是像軟體人才都是比較liberal，然後喜歡自由度高的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，頻寬要快，其他都不講究。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "比如以美國來講的話，其實之前大家講說矽谷是一個非常有創新、創業的地方，但是你知道矽谷已經沒有在講，反而是西雅圖，因為風景優美，而不用付所得稅、房價又比較低，其實很多軟體人才就往那邊聚集去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且下雨，大家在室內會專心工作。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "即使在中國大陸，像北京中關村開始做軟體相關的優化，但是現在以微軟來講，我們其實講不見得要在first tier city，我們要在second tier，所以在蘇州我們也成立了second tier的研發中心。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "有時反而軟體最缺的是，你怎麼把人才聚集在一起做對的事情，把人才聚集在一起做對的事情，你反而可以利用比如人工智慧時代時，你可以創造一個新產業的聚落，把這些人聚集起來，這一些人聚集起來，care不見得是水跟電，而是每天生活的環境怎麼樣，冬天可不可以滑雪、可不可以玩帆船，有沒有山、有沒有水。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有水上活動。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "對。我老婆會不會願意跟我一起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "風景優不優美之類的。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "醫療、學校、小孩念書，其實軟體公司很重視的就是我們怎麼提供一個環境，讓這一些人才在這邊，可以安身立命，同時我們也有夠好的場域，這個場域就是像我們在講無人機的這個話題，市政府要開放這一種沙盒、platform去使用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想無人載具，也應該再一、兩個月三讀，有那個沙盒大家會很有幫助。其實我很多在公務員實際的使用上，大家也都是說以前有一些事情是交給像公共行政替代役去做，那是比較冗的事情，我們資訊科學叫「比較trivial」的事情，現在沒有公共行政替代役了，AI突然之間很好推，有一些大家太習慣讓人來做的事情，但其實就像剛才你說的，他本來就應該是機器來做是比較快的，而且也比較有意義的，因為它不牽涉到主觀的生命經驗跟判斷，不牽涉到care的部分，所以讓公務員更能夠來care市民，這個也是所謂humanity base非常簡單的一個想法，只是在臺灣我們不會犧牲大家的privacy或者犧牲掉公部門的integrity，就可以同時達到這個humanity，這個是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後想問的是，這樣子聽起來每一個城市只要願意擁抱這樣子一個vision，他大概都可以去發展所謂的AI驅動這樣的一些工作，所以你有沒有覺得好比像如果有人說：「AI Labs來我們城市設立。」你會跟市長講什麼？有什麼重要的事情？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "我們臺灣人工智慧實驗室對一個智慧城市的vision，我當然也希望未來在臺灣各個城市，我們需要投資未來、投資問題驅動、數據驅動，是真的可以做到AI驅動，臺灣其實有非常好的資源，讓大家都知道臺灣是有最好的ICT產業，有這一些硬體廠，同樣臺灣其實也有非常多的軟體人才，過去大家只是沒有好好有一個平台把它聚集起來。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "所以，其實如果在各個縣市政府，比如真正有心想要把智慧城市推展的話，把這一些人才聚集起來的地方，這個是一定要的，這不見得一定要AI Labs來推行，但至少就是如果對人工智慧在智慧城市上要如何去運用，那是有心想要推行，我們AI Labs歡迎大家一起來討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等於不要說一個標竿，而是一個模式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實很多人問我說：「空總社創中心要不要開分部？」其實重點是大家一起來創造這個空間、這個空間反映大家的需求，任何願意按照這個SOP來規劃的人都可以叫「社創中心」，不一定要我去幫他蓋社創中心。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過，你台南做出來之後，像台中有來找你詢問過嗎？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "台中就是之前的蕭顧問（景燈），有邀請我到台中去做一次演講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也是他們智慧城市委員會的委員，所以我們也一直在看台南的案例，想說怎麼樣去使用。高雄有人來問過嗎？" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "今年3月的時候，陳其邁委員有來參觀我們Lab，也有一些討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想臺灣各地對這個可能，都開始比較能夠buy-in這樣的vision。希望大家慢慢能夠從本來只是「路上有坑洞要修掉」的感覺，慢慢變成「從市民的需要來出發」。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，今天非常謝謝Ethan。" }, { "speaker": "杜奕瑾", "speech": "謝謝政委。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "主要是要跟政委談數據處理的部分，我們就請……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們活動的title現在範圍很大，這個title真的不會被挑戰嗎（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我們也想聽聽看政委的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先請你們解釋一下活動的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我先講一下，您剛剛提到會不會被挑戰的主題，我們是全台第一個數據處理中心成立的記者會，我們的時間是在12月14日，也就是星期五上午10點至12點的時間，我們舉辦的地點是在社企大樓三樓的空間。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "目前會與會的貴賓，第一個是政委，再來是AI school的陳昇瑋執行長，另外兩個是我們的客戶，一個是日本的Incubit創辦人北村先生，另外一個是Viscovery陳仲璘先生，目前這是我們在整個記者會會邀請到的貴賓。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我簡單來講一下我們當天記者會的流程，我們記者會從10點開始，前面20分鐘是媒體接待，其實媒體不一定瞭解什麼是數據標註或者是數據處理，所以我們在記者會的現場有一些電腦、demo，讓記者可以體驗跟瞭解什麼是標註跟我們最瞭解的分類，我們在10點20分，我們的主持人會開始活動開場，一開場有短影片，最主要是介紹若水在數據處理的介紹與目前市場的概況，我們之後會請Sabrina進行大概15分鐘目前AI這個部門營運成立的過程及成果分享，裡面會包括到我們目前成立的過程、我們看到這個市場、及若水團隊在全球市場上的優勢。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我們也會製作一個程式讓記者更清楚瞭解Garbage in及Garbage out，也就是前端數據精準性與後端產生的影響。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "之後會請政委致詞，致詞的方向是政委時常在很多的場合裡面談到AI對於社會創新的意義，這部分等一下我們可以討論一下，看政委的意見。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "再來，政委這邊的致詞時間大概是10分鐘，之後我們就會請AI school執行長提到目前精準數據上的一些重要性，在致詞的這個部分結束之後，我們會有大概10分鐘的合照。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "合照之後，下面進行的比較像我們在實際運用面上的趨勢座談，所以我們會先以目前在應用面的影片作開場，之後我們會有簡單的座談會，大概是半個小時的時間，最主要是由若水跟客戶端去討論目前數據標註在應用面的展現，還有精準數據對於AI效能影響、未來合作的藍圖，這是比較應用面的部分。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我們在座談結束之後，就會是媒體的採訪，還有媒體對於我們講的東西、對於旁邊故事有更多想要瞭解，就可以藉由這樣的時間來瞭解，這是整個記者會的流程。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我現在已經可以開始改上面的東西？" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先從最沒有爭議的改起。陳昇瑋辦的不是AI school，school指的是幼教或者是國教。他教的都不是小孩，辦的是AI Academy，所以這個用詞滿重要的，因為你找AI school會到錯的網站去，而且真的不是教小孩。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我會講「AI for good」沒有錯，但是沒有講過「AI for human good」。說「AI for humanity」我還比較能講，或者「AI for good」我還能講，但是你把「human good」的「good」會變成財貨的意思，這樣就怪怪的，並不是你們要的主題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，我建議乾脆不要英文，不然直接把中文翻英文，也就是「AI for Social Innovation」，或者是「Social Innovation for AI」，甚至是「Digital Social Innovation」，「AI」根本不要出現，這樣的好處是，因為我是數位政委，不是AI政委，所以我會建議就「數位社會創新（digital social innovation ）」，但是子題裡面還是可以有AI創造的機會，這一些沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「若水」前面的「數據標駐」是這個「駐」嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "這個是錯字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是單純的錯字，因為現在新造詞太多了，我不知道哪一些是、哪一些不是（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「數據精準的魔力程式」，你確定要把它叫「GI/GO」嗎？因為這我們都懂，但是我不知道大眾是不是懂。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "其實第四個我們還在討論，重點是我們想要呈現的是，演算法跟data的重要性，因此這個部分我們剛剛也在討論要如何呈現比較好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且演算法歸演算法、data歸data，你到底要強調哪一些重要性？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "我們要強調data的重要性，也就是data對於演算的重要性，也就是演算後的正確性或者是辨識度，對那個模型良好塑造的重要性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「魔力程式」的「程式」是什麼意思？" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我只是先取一個名字而已，我們之前有討論，希望可以透過你要放進好的資料跑出來的東西，跟丟進不好的資料跑出來的東西，其實是不一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣非常好，那這樣「程式」二字是多的，也就是講數據精準的魔力、精準數據的魔力，不然當你最後一個字是名詞，放在一個大家都懂的地方，而數據都還不太懂的時候，大家會覺得你要講程式，沒有人會覺得你要講數據，所以程式就刪掉了；「Garbage in」跟「Garbage out」我不反對，只是這樣要稍微解釋一下。其他都沒有太大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後面「標駐」的「駐」還是錯字；「公司未來發展」是「incubit」或者是「viscovery」？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "應該是「incubit」、「viscovery」，因為是panel discussion，與談「incubit」或者是「viscovery」可以談一下未來的應用，還有跟我們後來在data處理上的未來可能性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子我會建議你把題目做大一點，好比像「未來趨勢發展及與若水合作的藍圖」，你不要兩個「未來」，意思不大；第二個是他們不一定做得到，但覺得產業界一定會有的事情，不然有一種商展的感覺，這可能不是他們要的。以上是不太有爭議的，我們回到最有爭議的標題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個標題的想法是什麼？因為我馬上可以想像得到南港生技園區、國網中心的人跑來說：「為什麼你們做的是精準數據，我們做精準醫療跟地質，又或者是精準氣象預測，而且我們用的是超級電腦，而且我們也有用虛擬軟體，為什麼你們是精準數據，我們反而不是。」你們要如何回覆？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "政委提醒的很好，我們那時在定義的時候是用data taking outsourcing的BPO概念在談這一件事，剛剛提到的國網是已經把AI的服務都綁得很完整了，所以變成是我們如何營造出一個具體，就是data taking的數據處理outsourcing的商業模式，可以for整個AI在研發過程中，我們是數據處理很好的夥伴，有一點是AI產業所謂價值鏈有一塊是可不可能切出來為數據清理的layer的BPO角色在？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣就不是中心了。因為資料就是蒐集、處理、利用，如果你是處理中心，意思是你把「處理」這一環都自己做，但不是，你們只是從「蒐集」到處理前端切一塊出來做而已，我如果沒有理解錯吧！處理後端也不是你們做，所以是從蒐集到處理前端，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣的話，你把它叫做「中心」，那就相當名不副實，不如真的很誠實說「唯一精準數據標註夥伴關係」之類的，這個維度都會比「中心」二字好，因為任何人也不只臺灣人，看到「中心」都不會想到產業鏈切一塊出來，想到的是分散在各個地方，產業鏈也沒有切出來，所以中心不太對。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "我們最近看中國或者是日本是在處理中文翻譯，是比較適合寫數據處理或者是數據標註？因為我們本來會說「數據處理」的原因是因為collection加taking，但是整個在用詞、用語上，對這一件事的認知會不太相同。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為「處理太大了」，但是「標註又太小了」，所以你現在又需要一個介於處理跟標註中間的詞來處理這個。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "有市場廣義的用語嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為你現在前面加「精準」，「精準」在這裡到底是什麼意思？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "「精準」的意思是像國際上在處理數據上，比如像cloud sourcing的方式，基本上標出來的數據，就我的客戶回饋給我是不精準的，所以這個data其實沒有辦法讓他的模型做得非常非常地好，因此我們才說收斂這一些事的狀況上，我們為何要收斂到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以你的「精準」是修飾處理，你的「精準」不是修飾數據？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是沒有人看得懂，大家一定都覺得「精準數據」是一個詞，然後你在處理「精準數據」，「不精準數據」就不要送到你們這邊來，但意思好像不是這樣子，因為當精準作為形容詞的時候，大家最常聽到是「精準醫療」跟「精準導彈轟炸」——但是那個先不管它（笑）——但那兩個都有很明確的意義，你有一個明確的受體，針對明確的受體來進行工作，但你們的精準完全不是這個意思，所以會產生形容詞上的混淆，你拿來當作形容數據，但你的意思是處理的意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果一定要放在數據前面，不如寫「高品質」，如果可以接在後面，那就想一個詞來講，但是你不能既放數據，又把它叫「精準」，這樣難以看得懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以「全台唯一……」……" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "我們在發想這個標題的時候，其實真正核心的concept，因為臺灣並沒有一個組織或是公司，專門在這一個產業鏈當中提供資料標註精準的這件事，就是品質的事，所以這是原始的concept，所以有兩個議題，我們要討論一下，是全台唯一，因為未來可能會有其他的player出來。" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "我們講的是現階段。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "第二件事如剛剛所提到的，數據處理或是標註——標註太少——處理很容易混淆的狀況下，所以這個詞也是我們現在一直在抓的，所以這個我們再順一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們是不是全部放在一起，就是「全台唯一」是固定的，這四個字先留著，「精準標註」四字也是可以的，而且你們可能之後就說「精準標註」，這可能是很好的（詞），對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來就是「數據處理團隊」、「數據處理服務」、「數據處理夥伴關係」，隨便啦！你高興就好。這樣就比較名副其實，不過唯一的問題是字太多了，你要分大標、小標，不過大、小標都很好，因為你前面要是「若水AI」，這才是大的，接下來才是「全台唯一精準標註」，接下來才是「數據處理服務」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這樣稍微重新排列一下，就會變成我現在投影上的這樣子：「若水 AI 數據處理服務 / 『精準標註 全台唯一』」，並不是修飾AI數據，要不要考慮一下？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "好，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他都非常好，我沒有別的意見。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "謝謝政委。我們會再提到的兩個地方，一個是home agent就業機會，也就是居家身障者，也跟政委報告我們現在在年底的時候，應該會有將近100位的居家身障者其實投入我們做我們現在客戶的標準工作上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們剛剛說home？" }, { "speaker": "陳雅言", "speech": "home agent就是居家身障者的夥伴，所以在這裡面，政委可能在提的時候，也提到「for good」這一件事其實是兩面的，一個是對市場面，AI不完全取代人力，我看政委其實在很多面向上一直在談社會創新這一件事，另外一塊是for 弱勢就業的事，其實我們之前也有提到的主體。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "我們後續再修一下，再把確認的東西寄給筱婷。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "昇瑋這邊的主要論述是用「資料」，因為他處理的包含數據資料跟文字資料，所以一般不會把數據挑出來講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是因為你們這邊花了非常多的時間講數據，所以就要看你們。你們現在是不碰文字資料，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "我們比較偏向電腦視覺的部分，所以也要談一下這一個部分，我們的確有同事參加他的人工智慧學校，他有開班，其實中間我們也知道昇瑋執行長在做的部分，比較少touch電腦視覺這一塊，所以也要跟昇瑋討論細節，或者是政委可以推薦？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "昇瑋很ok。你只要先提供一些超參數，他絕對可以做出很好的演講。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "只是他偏文字跟數據那一塊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "文字跟多媒體是他的強項，但因為你們目前確實比較在數字、圖片的domain，所以你們用「數據處理」是非常對的，因為如果你們說是資料處理，就一堆別的東西來找你們了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只是未來趨勢跟數據的重要性，這個title非常好，但是要確定傳送的訊息是不會覺得太窄，你們又不會覺得太偏的東西，這可能需要一點對齊。其他都很好。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "政委，您之前有提到「AI產業化」跟「產業AI化」，我們現在在打臺灣跟日本的市場，看到同樣的狀況，所以就您現在看起來，如果以「產業AI化」的話，缺哪一塊拼圖？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最缺的是「體驗設計師」，其實就是當作「職再」，你們不是最會這個嗎？也就是「職務流程再設計」，這是各位的強項。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實像有些AI，你也可以當作是特殊身心狀況的朋友，他的身體移動，小肌肉就沒有那麼好，但是大肌肉的力量就滿強的，如果你接機器人的話，或者他的認知功能是非常狹窄的領域，你給他一定輸入的話，他的輸出效能很高，但是一旦需要常識就不太行。事實上人類裡面也有像這樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思是，你可以針對AI的特性去做職務流程再設計，再設計之後，你讓這一些AI能有更好的學習環境，這樣你的數據精確度就增加，不然按照一般設計給人類的職場，取得有效數據的能力是非常弱的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以為了AI，把AI當作一種多元身心狀態者去做職務流程再設計，我們現在叫做「工作體驗設計」，甚至我都很想說這就是「職再」，就不要再發明新名詞，這個有一個好處是「職再」你們已經很懂，現在只是把一群身心障礙有一個情況的朋友，跟另外一群有身心障礙別的情況——不是人類——的朋友有更好的互動，也就是AI（人工智慧）乘上 CI（群眾智慧）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是大部分看到AI有一個趨勢，大家翻譯成「擴充智慧」或者「擴增智慧」（Augmented Intelligence），那個「人工」就拿掉了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從「擴增智慧」的角度來看，那就有雙重角色，就是自主進行資料蒐集及預測的時候，你把它放在職再適合做這個的位置。另外，當它需要判斷或是行動的時候，你把人放在這一個位置，但讓AI來增強，這兩個都是職務流程再設計的工作，因為以前是放在同一個人身上，那個人就是那一條龍，現在是拆開。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此我會建議你論述上可以這樣論述，比較符合所謂「產業AI化」的趨勢，這當然跟「AI產業化」毫無關聯，你們也許也沒有要碰。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "我們主要是「產業AI化」的這一件事。謝謝政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳潔如", "speech": "當天政委會提早離開，所以我們會在11點左右的時候就完成。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有問題，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "我們先介紹比較好，我們是從韓國來的，我們是從創新中心進來的，有三個團隊進來的，第一個是首爾創新中心，第二個是進駐團隊自治會，第三個是進駐團隊的人，我們在做的是政府或者是企業沒有辦法解決的事，是有公民的力量來解決、推動這一種東西，現在創新中心有11個機構，然後還有240多個團隊，1,200多個參與者跟運動者、工作者，這個是我們的空間，像你們這裡一樣，很久的時間沒有被用過的空間，一起來的兩位是在韓國管理的人，這兩位是130個團隊代表，這130個團隊支援他們創新中心的工作人員，來臺灣知道臺灣也有這一種空間，那個時候覺得很高興、很感動，所以想要交流，所以就來這邊了，今天來到這裡非常高興。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常歡迎大家來這裡，這裡是我的辦公室，我在行政院的工作是社會政務委員，但是我同時也負責social innovation，也就是社會創新、開放政府跟青年參與的這三個工作，每個禮拜三從早上10點到晚上10點，我都在這邊，任何人都可以來這邊找我談40分鐘的話，只要他願意把我們談話的紀錄公開上網，就是每個星期三。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天當然因為逐步翻譯的關係，我們有兩個40分鐘，也就是一個半小時的時間，我最後想提的是社會創新在臺灣是整個臺灣都在發生，並不是在台北，所以這裡是一個hub，但是全臺灣都有社會創新的中心，像我在禮拜二的時候，常常會巡迴全臺灣，像花蓮、台東比較是我們叫做「原住民族」的地方，或者是偏遠的一些地方，我去那邊的時候是直接跟那邊的人進行溝通，甚至住在那邊體驗他們的生活，但是我去那邊座談的時候，我們12個部會的社會創新相關部會朋友，都還是在空總這裡，透過視訊可以看到我在當地的狀況，當地的朋友只要一有問題，這邊12個部會的朋友就要馬上回答，兩個禮拜之內就要解決他們的問題，並且公開上網，所以我不是只服務能夠坐車來台北的人，我也實際去每個地方找大家服務。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "無論是台北這邊的空總社創中心或者是台中的，或者是桃園的，還有很多，邏輯都是一樣的，只要願意讓整個社會一起來決定這個空間的運作，我們就把它叫做「社創中心網絡」成員，現在全臺灣已經有超過200個有登記、做社會創新的團體，包含合作社的型態、公司的型態、基金會的型態、協會的型態等等，這一些都是我們叫做「social sector」，就是社會部門，我就是算是社會部門跟公部門間的中介者，所以接下來就看大家有什麼問題，我介紹先到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "我們來臺灣之前，上個禮拜經過g0v的朋友們，聽到你跟他們以前做一些運動，我們相信這些g0v的朋友們，對你也會有一些要求、期待，如果有的話，怎麼樣的要求或者是期待呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "g0v其實是一個國際性的活動，我們上個星期g0v.it才剛成立，g0v就是把每一個政府的網站或者是服務，讓民間來做一個更好的版本，但是民間拋棄掉著作權，所以讓政府可以隨時合併回去使用，義大利才剛剛成立，我們這個禮拜，也就是g0v.ca也試著成立。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "全世界不管任何的g0v，價值都是一樣的，我們說開放並不是別人可以來用我們做的東西，也是心態上的開放，就是我的東西不怕別人改得更好，這個其實跟政府本來由上而下這個治理的邏輯，確實是不相同的，以前的政府都是垂直的，而開放的邏輯則是水平的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以民間社會對我的期望是，我能夠把這一種水平的這一種概念，能夠帶進政府裡面，讓政府看到有5,000人要上街頭了，他們不要害怕的，這5,000人是來幫忙的，並不是來打倒你的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "具體來講，所謂回應他們的方法，就是每個禮拜三，g0v的朋友在晚上我們都會在這邊一起吃晚餐，有的時候我們的廚師會幫忙做一些食物，至少我也會幫忙訂一些pizza，大家就可以跟公務員在下班的時候，他們也脫下公務員的西裝外套，就很像一般的好朋友一樣，就跟互相相信的部分加強，加強才有可能有水平的溝通，不然沒有互相共享食物地方的時候，這一定都是垂直的，這個是我回應的方法，就回答到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "相信透過這樣的方法，互相信任不會很困難，但是因為制度的關係、法律的關係，他們會不會希望事情之類的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今年才剛開始有一個概念，任何的civic hacker，也就是任何創新者可以對法律或者是法規提出實驗計畫，這個概念就叫做沙盒，簡單來講，如果你覺得某一個版本的法律或者是法規，你的版本比現在國家的版本好，而且你也可以說服某個地方的人跟你一起做實驗，那麼不管你要做的是平台經濟、金融科技，或者是無人載具，又或者是5G這一些都可以違法，違法這一年裡面就可以證明給大家看你的版本法規命令是比較好的。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "臺灣的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "臺灣的，今年1月開始，陸續推出這樣一套制度。當時因為我們是成文法系的國家，所有這一些都要立法院的授權，所以立法院也花了比較久，通過我們叫「沙盒」的這一些法案，也讓公民社會的朋友們等了比較久，目前大家期待最深的是無人載具，應該三讀就要通過了，前面幾個都在稍早通過，他們都有相同的結構，你可以花一年的時間證明你的主意比較好給社會看，證明一年之內沒有好主意，因為這個是開放式創新，至少大家學到為什麼這個不好，下一個創新的人可以建立在這個實驗上，但是如果是好主意，可以再擴大規模多實驗一年，但是最多兩年就變成是法規命令。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然立法院要詳細討論，最多可以討論到四年，但是在這個中間，公民黑客，都可以繼續經營下去，等於是壟斷一樣，因為只有你可以做，但是到了最後立法院決定之後，大家都可以做，就會有競爭者，這個是法規的共同創造，這個是臺灣現在社會創新的一個非常重要概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我特別說法務部每一次講到這個的時候，都要我提醒說雖然你可以挑戰所有部會的法律，但是洗錢防制跟資助恐怖分子是不可以實驗的。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "已經有的法律的話，可以用這個法律，但是沒有這個，但是產業要實驗的話，也可以用法律嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有禁止的話，就可以做了，沒有這個問題。但是有一套新的東西，一定是因為被某個現有的法律綁住了，才不可以做，不然直接做就好了，這個是很好的問題，因為沙盒上面來的，100多個題目裡面，有90多個其實不知道現在是不是合法的，那個是叫灰色地帶。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有了沙盒以後，對公務員來講，以前不准做，只要一天，然後就可以花一個禮拜的簽呈，現在因為有沙盒在後面，所以現在九成來的人就是解釋可以做全新的事情，因為只要花一個禮拜，如果說不能做就要陪你一年了，所以有九成的時間都是說可以做。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "有什麼法律、使命？第二，你們剛剛說可以用適合的時間嗎？有法律試驗的時間嗎？有政府的資源嗎？第三，有關於民間團隊、產業有提出新的法律，政府怎麼選擇它？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "三個分別回答：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三個是特別簡單的，我就簡單講，任何人講得出對永續發展目標，也就是SDGs有任何貢獻，一個人就可以來提案，不需要湊任何的人數，只要直接來找我，或者是在巡迴的時候，只要講得出有在做優質教育、親近水環境等等，這樣就足夠了，但是如果跟永續發展目標無關，需要5,000人幫他連署，告訴大家對這一件事很在意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這一些都是行政院的，如果要去找立法院的話，目前在臺灣也有《公投法》。但是這樣子的話，好像要有20幾萬人幫你連署，才可以去拘束立法院的權力。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "在台中的試驗基地有一個團隊，他們昨天說因為之前是民間團隊，沒有辦法參與老人福利，但是法律的關係，他們可以參與，這個跟你剛剛所說的是有關的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。以前非營利組織跟公司是分得非常開的，但是現在我們創造了一種方法，從今年11月1日開始，任何一家公司都可以說是被一家協會或者是基金會所控制的公司，這家協會或者是基金會有完全主導權，可以有否決權跟特別股，就算只佔1％的股份，也可以有51％的投票權，這個時候這家公司就被認為是這個協會的附屬，意思就是對大家交代的這一個方式，是可以跟這個協會一起很透明地跟大家交代。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "非營利團隊子公司？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前在臺灣是不可以的，這個法規的沙盒在11月1日通過了。因為剛剛問到政府在實驗期做了什麼支援，像剛才講的這個是組織型態轉換……不是子公司轉換，其實是在11月1日正式上路之前有接近一年的時間，我們跟一家叫做「基督教好牧人協會」已經一起做一個實驗，所以他們實驗的這一年裡面，我們政府提供三個支援：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，我們提供專業的會計師教他們去做這一種使命扣合，其責信扣合、經營模式扣合的這個工作，他們甚至指定會計師必須也是基督徒，我們政府還幫他找了基督徒的會計師，這個是第一個支援。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我們的經濟部有了一個公共布告欄的平台，讓他們可以用eID，也就是工商憑證來揭露章程，經濟部幫他背書，讓大家知道章程是為了社會目的，這個是第二個，也就是在open data的支援。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，我自己本人幫他們在商業周刊，也就是臺灣最大的雜誌之一寫文章，告訴大家有這一件事，告訴大家說這一件事少數人在意的東西，變成大家都可以一起做的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過商業周刊專欄的主要作者在這裡（彭筱婷），我只是共筆而已（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "我有一點想像跟開玩笑的東西，但他是韓國第一位的，昨天跟臺灣第一位見面，我們那時看到很大的是如果有機會的話，這裡可以有一起工作，你覺得如何呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得非常好，我們在這邊有非常多農業的團隊，因為現在農業怎麼樣導入智慧的科技，不管是運用我們叫做「分散式帳本」讓大家更相信農業種植的過程，或者是像我剛剛所說透過無人機、無人車，讓農業的照顧變得更容易，這個是臺灣最在意的東西之一，這一方面我想我們會跟領域的專家有非常多合作，所以隨時歡迎來教我們的機器學徒，像他們進來的過程裡，有看到一位AI的鋼琴家，讓鋼琴家教它如何彈鋼琴。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "雖然我們有很多想問你的事情，但是因為時間不到，所以我想最後一個……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我是可以到4點。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "第一個問題是，我們剛剛沒有介紹很多，可能介紹自己不夠多，可是如果我們來臺灣之前，找了一些關於你的資訊或者是經歷的過程，我們也覺得你是社會運動的人，還有企業家、黑客，有非常非常多的立場。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "在你的立場來說，能不能給我們建議如何更發展之類的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "首先，我的時間很多，不知道他們有沒有下一個行程，其實我們還可以再聊下一個小時？" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "我們太多行程了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒關係，我只講一個概念，在永續發展目標裡面，我想這重要的並不只是這17個顏色，這只是讓人容易去記憶，重點是169個很具體的目標，這個我希望大家都能夠瞭解，而且在臺灣我們不管是企業的社會責任、大學的社會責任，還是我們這邊的社會創新團隊，在接下來的一年裡都會用169個最主要的目標來當作自己的定位跟索引。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家都用同一個索引的好處是，我去世界上任何一個地方，我只要說數位政委的工作是17.18、17.17、17.6，所有的人都知道我正在做大家可以信賴的資料、跨部門同心協力、開放式的創新，我就不用再講一大堆，我講三個數字就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不但這些圖形很漂亮，我覺得它也起了一個很重要的引導師的作用，告訴大家不一定要只是泛泛地覺得社會創新很棒的程度而已，而是說能夠講得出非常非常具體的，你正在解決哪一個社會問題、哪兩個社會問題，等到大家想到你的名字之後，都可以想到很明確這一些數字的話，自然在做類似事情的人，不管像您剛剛所說的是在企業裡、政府部門裡、公民運動的組織當中，自己因為這一些東西結合起來，不再需要一個公部門組織大家，等到這一些共同的價值就組織大家，這個是我對大家的建議。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "UBI國家有一些……臺灣有沒有在討論？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，事實上社會創新實驗中心就是臺灣UBI運動的其中一個基地，不但我們的工作人員就有信UBI的朋友，而且UBI的活動也經常辦在我們這裡。臺灣有很多研究UBI的朋友，事實上UBI的年會也有辦在臺灣，好像是今年的事情，我也有預錄一段影片去祝福他們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很誠實來講，臺灣現在是在幫國外輸出UBI的研究能量，我們自己反而比較在政治上，你看今年的公投有10個公投，但是沒有一個是UBI，跟瑞士不一樣，為什麼？因為臺灣沒有一個很大的社會問題、社會上的對立是需要靠UBI來解決的，在別的地方，當你看到失業率非常高、貧富不均，老年人照顧斷裂，年輕人沒有辦法有好的創業資源，這個時候UBI就很容易跳出來，但是這些問題都沒有這麼嚴重。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我自己很在意的是兩個基本工作，雖然UBI現在還沒有到可以公投的程度，但是幫忙正在做兩件事，第一個事是取消掉一定是有job（職業），對社會才有貢獻的這一種想法，我們會把purpose跟job拆開來，所以以後可以有purpose去學習，但是不是為了認同你的技能去學習，我們明年開始新的國民教育，完全不會把小孩訓練成認定特定技能的人，而是教養成為了社會目的或者是環境目的而有這個素養的人，才不會是大家覺得UBI是一群沒有技能的人在那邊領納稅人的錢，可以取消掉污名化的問題，這個是教育上的工作。第二個等一下再講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個，除了剛剛國民教育明年就要上路之外，在社會上讓大家不要再用弱勢這個想法去想別人，就很像SDG是聯合國第一次沒有分已開發、開發中、未開發國家，是所有人類都要達到2030年的目標一樣，在臺灣像進來的時候，會看到有一些裝潢，是有唐氏症的朋友們創造出來的，我們這裡叫做「喜憨兒」，這一些朋友們認識世界的方法是一種集合的方式來認識世界，所以畫出來的東西，是讓人印象深刻的，這個語言他們比我們熟悉，我們在這裡是要向他們學習，並不是有唐氏症的朋友就是弱勢，而是為這個社會的涵融帶來他們自己的特殊的角度，只有我們把社會各個群體都這樣看，以後UBI在推行的時候才不會受到一個阻力，不會社會上有強勢、弱勢的人，好像UBI是對這個東西的挑戰等等，不是這樣看，而是要把整個社會分為已開發、未開發國家，去看成多種多元的人，這一種UBI就不會有情緒上的阻擋。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "這一次來臺灣的時候，見了很多臺灣創新團隊的朋友及進駐團隊的朋友們，我們很感動、很高興，來臺灣之前也很希望加入，來到之後真的覺得要繼續交流，如果如果有做得很好，希望你也可以來到韓國。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我之前就有去過首爾，而且也跟codegate的活動有合作，我們都知道韓國在資訊安全上跟臺灣一樣都是非常注意的，所以那一種網路駭客有很密切的交流往來，跟civic hacker也是很重要的，未來也很願意參加civic hacker的活動，就是公民對科技的活動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "社會創新我覺得在我們臺灣社會創新行動方案裡面，我們所謂的civic hacker裡面，好比在經濟上做創新，常常會威脅到環境，在環境上做創新，會覺得很難發展，又或者是在社會上做一些照顧弱勢者的創新，可能會讓大家覺得既有的族群或者是比較保守的族群感覺到威脅等等，但是有了civic hacker或者是公民科技，我們就可以把不同立場的人聚集在一起，然後找到共同的價值，這個就是數位技術的意義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當我說很願意去韓國跟大家做social innovation交流的時候，我特別就是指的是願意把不同的價值結合起來，不一定要透過數位科技。但是數位科技當然是比較方便的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "提問", "speech": "如果可以的話，希望之後可以繼續交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然沒有問題，現在大家都有email，之後可以直接寫email給我。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "縣府提供各項的青年創業，就業、支援等政策，但還是聽到許多縣民反應資訊取得不易，在資訊公開及廣傳，縣府還需要加強的，會是在哪個區塊？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常好的問題，首先想要很肯定剛才對於不管是農業或者是在綠能或者是在各個不同多元方面，我們以前想到的大概就會像農委會農社企這樣的一個計畫，或者是說如果做綠能，也許經濟部能源局等等的計畫，但是我們現在推動所謂「社會創新行動方案」，就是要結合十二個部會，大家平常沒有想到的，好比像內政部對於合作經濟的瞭解，這個是比大家都來得多的，我們現在綠電也有很多合作社來加入了，所以這個在教育部裡面，USR（大學社會責任）忽然間也變成讓所有青年，甚至不需要畢業就可以對家鄉產生貢獻的一個非常好的方法，甚至是我們外交部也用了非常多的資源，讓國外好比像日本地方創生的專業團隊來進行討論，所以在這個過程裡面，就是各部會對應到縣府，就是各局處的參與。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是，這個對人民來講，其實有時候很混亂的，因為每一個局處都有每一個局處的窗口，但是人民覺得政府就是一體的，好像每個禮拜三我在這裡、在台北的空總，大家直接來找我的時候，不會去問、也不會知道是哪一個部會的政策，大家想要知道的是解決這個社會或者是環境問題有沒有什麼青年朋友可以幫忙的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以在中央專門設置了「開放政府聯絡人」的制度，什麼是「開放政府聯絡人」？就很像國會聯絡人專門跟立委溝通，媒體聯絡人專門去跟新聞記者溝通，我們開放政府聯絡人就是專門去跟新冒出來、有任何新想法、新創新想法的人溝通，不管透過網路上的連署、實體的巡迴，都可以直接找到開放政府聯絡人，然後跨部門一起匯集成一個心智圖，也就是一個完整的政策脈絡一次回應給大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也很高興看到台南市也已經採用這一個跨局處的開放政府聯絡人制度，所以未來如果有這樣子的制度也願意引進縣府的話，我們已經有寫了一個要點，也可以跟台南市，也就是當時的賴清德市長在推動開放政府政見時，有把這樣的要點把台南市帶到行政院，接下來各個縣市如果都可以採用的話，對於人民來講，就是透過網路，縣府也是一體的，也可以一次性的得到完整的政策脈絡，就不用自己像拼圖一樣，把自己講的十二個部會每一個不同的計畫，把它拼起來，大概是這樣的回應。" }, { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "大部分的青年對政治冷感，但是對於公共事務有他的熱情、觀感及主見，在縣府的角度上，我們支持青年投入公共事務包含從政，縣府用甚麼樣恰當的方式去鼓勵或是提供管道讓青年投入公共事務？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，這個也是非常好的問題，我除了主管社會創新、開放政府之外，還是青年事務的政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "行政院在這一屆是第一次有行政院級的青年諮詢委員，第一屆兩年剛剛交接給第二屆青年諮詢委員。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "青年諮詢委員非常特別，既不是像立委一樣，監督預算權等等，但是也不是像我們一般青年的顧問一樣只是提建議。青年諮詢委員是在我們行政系統裡面，任何地方、會議只要沒有國家機密就可以參加，而且可以集體提出來從他們的角度來看，國家往什麼方向發展才是好的方向，所以在行政院的這個層級裡面，我們因為有青年諮詢委員的關係，所以好比像在聯合國永續發展目標具體的實踐上，或者是在我們技職教育如何在新課綱上路之後，如何融入社會參與的能力上，又或者像在我們青年諮詢委員的帶領之下，我們18歲第一次永遠公民投票權的朋友們，讓中選會知道怎麼樣接觸到這一些青年朋友，他們關心的範圍遠遠超出只有教育、經濟、勞動這三個方面，而是三十四個部會都可以看到他們的聲音。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以第一，我會建議去加強類似青年諮詢委員會這樣子的一個角度。當然縣府如果有青年相關的一些專責人員的話，或者至少相關聯絡人的話，就相當於青年署的角色，也會增進溝通的角度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是接下來，最重要的是，我們看青年的方式，要把他們看作是我們的嚮導，讓他們指引我們要往什麼方向去走，我們在後面提供充足的資源，但是方向是由青年決定的，是要有這樣的感覺，才不會變成像以前青年是需要照顧、扶助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為現在世界變動得太快，世界要變動到哪裡，其實青年比我們——我已經是壯年了——要早知道的，我們要靠青年來當我們的嚮導，青年的參與，我們要儘快在兩個星期之內要轉換成可行或者是不可行的政策評估，等於讓他們也瞭解到公共行政的挑戰。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一旦進了廚房之後，就不是會吵的有糖吃了，進了廚房之後就要一起做糖，這個是跟青年共同創造最基礎的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很高興有這個直播的機會，不過我們剛才聽說這邊網路的速度有一點不夠，但是沒有關係，我剛剛整個討論的過程，不但有錄下來，也有製作逐字稿，所以之後會馬上提供給大家。" }, { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "委員好，我想請問一下，在資訊發達的年代裡面，資訊來自四面八方，有些訊息不知道真的或者是假的，如何分辨新聞的真實性，如何分辨真假？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛才這個是非常好的問題，當我們看到網路上的訊息，像LINE上面有人傳訊息，我們怎麼知道是真的、假的？其實在LINE上面有一個公民社會「零時政府」開發的機器人，名字就叫做「真的假的」。如果加成LINE的朋友，去找「真的假的」，你看到一個訊息，第一個大家養成一個習慣，傳一個訊息來，先想一想「真的假的？」不一定要馬上轉傳，比較可以先讓大家想一想再轉傳的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，你可以轉給機器人「真的假的」，讓只在LINE裡面流傳不知道真的假的訊息，放到公開搜尋引擎可以找得到的網際網路上。這樣一來，包含「臺灣事實查核中心」等等公民社會的朋友，都可以一起去找資料、找到是真的還是假的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子就很像我們以前收到垃圾郵件的時候，每個人信箱都裝很多垃圾郵件，2000年初的時候是這樣子，但是後來技術社群跟公民一起協作，任何人收到一些詐騙郵件的時候，你只要按這個是垃圾郵件，只要多的人按，就會放到國際網絡Spamhaus，我們就知道放垃圾郵件的朋友們活動的樣本是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一旦蒐集到足夠的樣本是什麼，它的傳染力就可以減弱，就不會跑到你的信箱裡面，所以垃圾郵件詐騙已經獲得基本解決。透過類似「真的假的」這樣的系統，可以這樣回應訊息的方法，這樣子就跟以前解決詐騙、垃圾郵件的情況是一樣的，都是透過「AI+CI」，用「機器學習」加上「群眾智慧」進行事實查核。在這個過程裡，大家的媒體素養都可以得到提升，這個就是目前我們目前來處理假訊息基本的策略。" }, { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "我想請問一下政委，政委有負責青年事務的部分，青年事務比較集中在六都，甚至是只有台北，這樣子的一個氛圍，當然是一件好事，有這個心態可以做這一件事。但是這樣的氛圍慢慢起來之後，有什麼樣的方式可以慢慢帶到各個縣市，不只是六都、台北市，在其他地方也可以有這樣的基地或中心，讓當地的學生或者是返鄉的青年也好，不一定是要高學歷、專業科技人才，是對於這樣的事務，有興趣都可以一起參加、參與，不知道政委對於這一個部分有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是方法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，非常非常好的問題。這個問題是如果青年要參與，現在叫做「地方創生」，在每一個地方，不管是10萬人或者是5萬人，這個地方有歷史傳承或者是生活方式，或者是經濟的生態圈，我們怎麼樣讓青年也可以投入？像桃園有青年局等等，已經有專設青年的局處、中心，可以協助創生的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在想跟大家報告的是，從中央到地方，如果是從公部門角度思維來做社區營造，往往會受到行政區劃分的限制。但是事實上一個生產的生態圈、一個生活的生態圈，有時是繞著一條河、有時是繞著一片平原，是按照自然分界、並不是行政區的分界。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，我們在推地方創生，最重要的角色其實是大學，因為「有大學的地方就有希望」，這個是大學社會責任（USR）的概念，也是高教深耕、社會創新計畫的精神。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一所大學的設立，服務的並不是單一鄉鎮、區、村、里。大學所服務，是所有可以認同大學價值的社區。但是在以前大學的老師們、教授們往往會覺得，如果做這一些服務的事情，跟他的升等、論文或者是學生的成績好像沒有關係，是多做的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "自從有了大學社會責任的計畫之後，狀況就反過來了，大學並不是教育局的執行單位，反而是教育局要去問大學，他們要跟地方一起做出什麼樣的事情？而且不會像以前那樣子每一季管考、每一年要改一次計畫，讓大家都有非常大的行政成本。USR是五年的週期，在第二年的時候做一個價值上的管考，如果這兩年裡面對於地方有創造出價值的話，接下來三年的經費，就會繼續讓這個大學執行他的社會責任。所以任何的青年要投入時，不只是這一所大學的學生，都可以加入這個大學的USR計畫，讓這個USR計畫帶動地方創生，等到再帶動之後，就不會受到行政區劃分界的限制，而是每一個行政區的里長、發展協會、合作社都可以進入USR的生態圈。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大學一起動腦、大家一起動手，來擴大社區營造、地方創生的計畫範圍。明年會有一個很完整的地方創生方案推出。以上是透過各地青年透過「青年好政」系統一起做出來的方向，因此在這一方面，青年也是我們的嚮導，讓青年告訴我們地方創生要往哪裡去做，剛剛講的並不是我們的創見，而是各地青年告訴我們的一些想法。" }, { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "縣長、各位委員大家好，我是西螺的返鄉青年，我們在西螺做醬油，幾年前回來，在這一些時間中的計畫，特別是建設，其實縣政府有幫我們做很多連結，那個計畫變成願景，現在有不同的異業結盟，真的非常謝謝縣長，歡迎「回鄉青年」的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是非常好的醬油產業，西螺有非常長的歷史，我記得應該是百年老店，所以這個是非常好的傳承概念。如何把地方的傳承帶到國際上，這個是很好的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己剛剛從加拿大回來，加拿大在那邊有一家台灣的社會企業叫做「芙彤園」，大家在全家便利商店可能有看到，他們就是跟台東的Amis（阿美）族人一起合作，就是用肥皂草，讓比較貧瘠的土地，運用自然農法回復地力，再結合阿美族人的藝術創造，做出像Aveda這樣的品牌。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個事情很有意思，它是社會企業沒有錯，越營業復育的地方越多，但是它輸出的並不是只有產品而已，而是使用一個概念，把怎麼樣營造的模式、方法寫得非常清楚，然後去輔導加拿大的原住民族，跟當地的貿易省務廳，等於是我們的經發局，還有加拿大聯邦國會這邊的議員參加，一起用臺灣研發出的這一套方法，讓他們的原住民族也可以參與土地復育跟加值農業的過程。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以賣得並不只產品與服務，而是「社會創新」的概念，創新概念先走，我們就用聯合國這17項永續發展目標，去找到所有國際上關心這一些永續農業、永續城鄉的朋友，我們每年把大家邀來一次，像今年是邀在台中，明年母親節會在高雄辦「亞太社企高峰會」，把這一年來所有這一些創新的方法翻譯成英文，運用聯合國永續發展目標，像蒲公英的種子傳出去，就把臺灣的品牌帶出去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們的產品、服務到那邊之後，他們就瞭解到這個是我們的共同價值，在這樣的情況下來傳播臺灣的「暖實力」，這個是臺灣目前主要的外交政策。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於國際的拓展，我的建議是，好比像「芙彤園」翻成「Blueseeds」，這個是文化上的翻譯，我們也希望接下來「西螺商圈米醬小鎮生活節」，也可以不管是英文或者是其他語言的翻譯，只要願意加入，像文藻外語學院的USR就是協助台南市仕安社區。一旦有擅長外語的朋友願意進來協助，我很願意介接國際上的資源。" }, { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "我知道唐委員本身對於平權、友善人權這一塊非常注重。2012年回來台灣，我回到嘉義，然後又跑出去，又回來，又跑出去，我雖然是鄉下長大的孩子，但是我是非常都市的人，其實一開始都不想接家裡的產業，因為我覺得要做家裡的工作，但是因為家裡的關係，醬油產業如果現在不回來做的話，很可能就要消失了，而且我們是用很特別的方式做，我們就是其中一家，所以後來決定回來做這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "提問者", "speech": "其實我的意思是，我在國外、台北看到都比較開放、多元的環境，我回到雲林我覺得非常受到壓迫，不管是消費保守，很多人對於人權及同志這一塊很不瞭解，我想知道委員用什麼切入點來講這一塊，讓人權可以在鄉下這一塊可以發聲。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。這個也是非常好的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我每個禮拜都跟阿嬤、媽媽打電話，每個月都會回去看四位老人家：阿嬤、爺爺、外婆、外公。外公已經一百歲了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我阿嬤是鹿港人，也是虔誠的天主教徒，從小就是教我，我小時候都是講台語——雖然現在講得不是很熟練。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我幾乎沒有離開臺灣長期居住過，最久是11歲在德國待了一年。幾乎全部的時間都在臺灣，但我有很多國外的朋友，是用網路取代馬路，用臺灣的經驗、故事，跟全世界交朋友。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想要回答的是，其實對很多長輩來講，「婚姻」在他們的工作、生活裡面，其實是一個社會的儀式，國家在婚姻裡面沒有什麼角色，也就是儀式婚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來，是從西方學來這樣一套行政方法之後，到我們這一代（2008）才變成所謂的登記婚，登記就是一件政府的事，至於要不要辦婚禮，那個是年輕人自己決定。因為我們自己的婚姻架構有這樣的世代上不同的關係，所以也讓大家對於婚姻的想法不一樣，所以我想這一次很特別，十個公投案有五個都在討論人權相關的題目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是一件很好的事情，表示臺灣的政治可以討論社會議題，並不只是討論意識形態。這也表示溝通的工作就要不斷去做，這裡面要強調的是有共同的價值，也就是大家都希望家庭是一個穩定的單位，家庭是一個互相互助、扶持的單位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管對於人權是在哪一個狀態的想法，都會肯定互相照料，甚至社區裡面的小孩讓大家一起來養，這樣凝聚的價值。如果從共同的價值出發，去討論這樣子人權的議題，那就會變得比較容易，大家可以瞭解到同樣的詞，因為年代不同，大家會聯想到不同的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以有時換一個詞句講，像我跟阿嬤溝通這一些都不成問題。就是要花時間、耐心，而且不要有一種我們比較懂的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像我們小時候也不希望長輩說：「我走過的橋比你走過的路多」、「囡仔人有耳無喙」。同樣的，我們希望在一起的價值裡面，去找到雙方都可以接受的講法，有時間、多聽，在傾聽的過程中，讓多方都能知道，同一個字我們會想到不同的生命經驗，這樣就很好了。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...let’s start again." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Hi, everyone! I am in Taipei with all the Dyne.org crew." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "We are the lucky guests of the conference on the intelligent urban fabric." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "I have the honor to be here with the Digital Minister of Taiwan: Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes! I’m Audrey Tang. I’m a poetician -- I write poems." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "We are... [laughs] That’s very unpredictable and fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "You remind me of our friend, Birgitta Jónsdóttir, that is also a great poet, and a great minister as well..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and also anarchist." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "...also anarchist, fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Basically, I am here to ask you about the platform that we run, Algorithmic Sovereignty Observatory in Europe." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "What is the impact that you see in your work, and on the society of Taiwan, of algorithms?" }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "The most powerful impact that they have, and what can be fixed? What can be improved?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the sake of brevity, I’m just going say \"code\", but when I say \"code\", please think \"algorithm\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Code is having a large impact, of course, because code is like law, but it’s not a law of text. It is a law of physics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In cyberspace, code determine what can happen, what cannot happen; what is transparent, what is opaque; and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It establish a normativity that is legal by design, just like physics. You cannot violate a physics law, because it’s just not possible, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This basically has a different position than a text-based normativity, where you can do something -- it may or may not be illegal -- depending on the interpretation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The impact is having a pre-set boundary that is either agreed by the social norm, which is a positive impact; or it’s set by a few people, which is a negative social impact." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "That’s a fantastic suggestion. Also, should we talk about code? What is the difference between code and algorithms?" }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Code sometimes is a little bit more boilerplate, no? Algorithm is at the core, like how does it function." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "I’m curious, why do you shift it to code?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, because \"code\" and \"text\" are both one syllable. In a poet’s words, they rhyme better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As for algorithms, it’s very difficult to rhyme \"algorithm\" with any other word... \"Anarchism\", I think, rhymes with \"algorithm\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, yes, the algorithm, of course, is the spirit that imbues itself in the code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So when I say \"code\", think \"algorithm\", but what affects people is a manifestation of the algorithm, which is the code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are two: In the spirit, it’s algorithm. In the flesh, it’s code." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "So it’s very much like law?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, and like other spiritual beings. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Hopefully, law experts that are watching us understand the nuance and understand how valuable is this transfer..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...well, the legal hermeneutics evolved from the spiritual hermeneutics, so they totally understand." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Fantastic, and you totally understand how to speak to Europeans." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "I think you are very lucky here in Taiwan to have the legacy that you are creating. There is a government that is very enlightened. You are very young in spirit, in mind, but also..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...totally non-partisan. Post-partisan." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "....and very dynamic. I hope that in Europe, we see more and more hackers that can actually shape and relate to the new generations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To fork the democracy." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Yes. [laughs] We are working on it." }, { "speaker": "Jaromil", "speech": "Thank you very much, Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much. Cheers." }, { "speaker": "Cameraman", "speech": "That is the best definition of algorithmic platonism I’ve ever heard." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Thank you so much. Should we start?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "The first question. From the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have to follow your outline. You can ask anything that comes to your mind. We can make it a conversation." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "OK. The first question. From tech people, what led you to support government? What inspired you about this view?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well I don’t \"support\" the government... I work \"with\" the government, I don’t work \"for\" the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am between the government and the movement. I’m like the middle point, the Lagrange point, that translates the language of government administration into the language of social movement, and then translate the language of social movement into the language of public administration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why I want to do this is that previously, people would apply pressure to different ministries like the minister of economy here and minister of environment here, for example, or the minister of finance, and the minister of social welfare. There’s tension like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The problem, of course, is two fold. The first is that the government cannot be the only organizer anymore. Now with the Internet, if you have a hashtag, tens of thousands of people can organize around that forum or around that hashtag, like #MeToo. We don’t need ministers to organize people anymore. People can organize themselves." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is there’s too many new things, like distributed ledger, and machine learning, and things like that. We cannot have one ministry for each emerging social or technical issue. This old model of governance is broken. That is why we are working toward a new way of governance. We call it collaborative governance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is how the Internet has always worked for the past 40 years or more. People with different positions -- we call them stakeholders -- different ideas, but we have some common values. We all want the world to be better. Like the Sustainable Development Goals, we want the environment to be better, the society to be better, and the economy to be better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just people have different opinions, but it’s all OK, because if we create a space and ask, \"What are our common values despite our different positions? Given our common values, can we innovate to make things good for everybody, not just for one side or the other?\" then it becomes what we call social innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Meaning that there’s new ways of doing things that makes everybody better, not just one or two people. My way of working is to create a space as you can see here, the Social Innovation Lab, that we can bring people of different values, like AI, and all the different technologies, and bring them into a place where it’s possible to create new ideas that makes everything better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not supporting the government. I’m supporting this collaborative governance structure. This is the governance system, not the government." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "What is the future of democracy on your mind?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The future of democracy is in a culture of listening. The previous generation of technology -- radio and television -- let one person speak to one million people. Television, one actor, one politician can talk to 10 million people, but they have no way to listen to a million people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now with the Internet, we can listen to a million people for the first time. That creates another problem, because if you have one million people talking, the one that has the most time, that creates the more controversy, more polarization, you will dominate the discourse, as we see on social media, for example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our work in our future of democracy is to create a space that let people check with each other for facts, evidence, like open data, but not just open government data, but also citizen science data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using data, we establish the facts. Around the facts, we can listen to each other, what you feel about this fact. You can feel happy. I can feel angry. It’s all OK. There is no right or wrong about feelings. Only then do we move to ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the social web, people post a lot of ideas, but almost nobody say what are the feelings and effect that leads to those ideas. You see a lot of ideas becoming ideology, in the sense that they cannot talk to each other. If we check the facts and the feelings fact, then the best ideas are the ones that address the most people’s feelings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We create spaces like Pol.is, which is a way for one person to look at the feeling of other people. They can agree. They can disagree. As they do, they move among the people who are thinking like them, but it has two properties." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, there is no reply button, so you cannot attack other people. You can’t post picket pictures or something like that. You can only propose something for other people to resonate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second is that it lets you see that it’s all your friends. It’s not some nameless enemies on the other side, so people will still compete, but they compete by proposing more and more ideas and feelings that resonates with people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you look at only mainstream media or social media, sometime, we get ideas. Those five divisive statements are all there is, because it’s sensational, creates advertisement value, but actually, people have far more in common with each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The future of democracy is a democracy of feeling and a democracy of listening, so that people can discover we actually have much more in common in terms of value compared to what the media will lead us to believe, the divisive statements." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "What will technology turn from government to be more transparency?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a lot of technology that we use. I am a radically transparent minister. When I talk about radical transparency, I use for example, this technology called Say It. Say It is a civic technology that says after I become the digital minister two years ago, in those two years, I talked with 3,000 people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We spoke together 158,000 sentences, speeches, in more than 700 meetings. Every single meeting that I am a chair of -- every single meeting with journalists, with lobbyists, with media, everything -- is actually published in full. It is not just the summary. It is what everybody says." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every word I spoke as the digital minister in a chair position or to talk with journalists like you or with lobbyists is captured in the public web, and in fact, on the GitHub, where we relinquish the copyright. Anyone can use it for their purpose. It creates three effects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The first one is that it becomes a social object. Every speech has its own website address. People get to discuss the why of policy making." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, you only get communication from the government after the policy is set, so you only get the what and the how. Now, we can talk about the why of policy making, is the first effect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second effect of radical transparency is that the career public servants, that is to say people who are professional public servants, they get the credit. Previously, before we make this kind of radical transparency, if something works really good, it’s always the minister take the credit. If things break, if things don’t work, the minister always complain the public servant." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you are a public servant, it’s a pretty bad deal for you. If you innovate and it breaks, it’s your fault, but if it works, it’s the minister’s credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With radical transparency, it’s the other way around, because people can see who proposed which idea. They can see actually, the public service is very professional. They all have their names on it. The journalists can actually know that the public servants are professional, and the citizens can actually see which public servants actually come up with the idea that addressed their problems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if those ideas didn’t make it at the end of the policy making, the civil society, the social sector, and the private sector entrepreneurs, they can take those ideas and make it happen using social entrepreneurship and other ways of regional cultivation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People still respect the public service for proposing those ideas in the first time. It’s their only win position. If it doesn’t work, because I’m the only minister in the world at the moment doing radical transparency, it’s always my fault. If there is any risk, they can always blame Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this sense, innovation in the public become really easy, because I take all the risk and they get all the credit. This is very different from the previous way." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Talking about AI, how AI can help reaching the sustainable development goals?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. When we talk about AI, we think augmented intelligence or assistive intelligence. That is to say, it helps us to make things that are routine, that are trivial, that people don’t want to repeat working." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, sorting through hundreds of thousands of input is very, very tedious. No matter who do the sorting, it’s going to be the same result anyway. If you have a way for AI to power this listening conversation, then a hundred people, a thousand people can listen to one another, because the facilitation is in AI. The more people join, the better the quality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we use human as the main convener to relay those ideas and options, then the more people join, the more heavy the burden will be put on the public service. The public service cannot accommodate more than, say, 1,000 people talking together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using AI to power conversation, we can scale the idea of listening so that we can scale to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands people talking together. People can still listen to each other’s main points. This is how we are using AI to power our public service consultation. The technology is called Pol.is." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Do you have any country where you are learning from, in your mind, about the GovTech?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We learn a lot of this from many other, not country, but municipal governments. Taiwan, from Taipei, the north, to Kaohsiung, the south is just an hour and half by high speed rails. Geographically, we are small. We’re like a larger municipality, but population wise, we are 23 million people. It’s a lot of people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have people working in very different sectors. In Taiwan, we have five million people already using our GovTech e participation platform. It’s one quarter of the population already. We’re seeing that number increase over time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, I would like to say we thank, for example, the city of Reykjavik in Iceland for contributing their way of this kind of no reply button conversation. We thank the city of Madrid for developing the system for participatory budgeting together. We thank the city of Barcelona for introducing a way to decentralize decision making." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are also working with the city of New York, the city of Toronto, and so on, and also the city of Wellington. There is this municipal network that all talk about municipal issues using technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Innovation is very easy to happen in a municipality, because people have very similar life experience. If you have a very large country, even different time zones, then it’s very difficult for people to share their life experience. Most of the innovation happen in a municipal level." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "The last question. What is the advise would you give to young generation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The younger generation are digital natives, meaning that they are born with the Internet and the culture of sharing and open innovation. I am a digital migrant. I discovered the Internet only when I was 12 years old. I’m a immigrant. I migrated to the Internet when I was 12 years old." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Before, the original education, I still used pencil, and paper, and things like that. For digital natives, open is by default. No matter what people cares about, people know that people who care about the same thing around the world is a community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people who are not digital native, this is a very remote concept. People only form community with people who live next to them, their neighbors. These two kind of community building, it’s very different culture, but both are very important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you are a digital native, I would suggest you to also talk to your neighbors who are living in your vicinity, who carry their memory about their culture in that vicinity. In that way, you can also introduce the digital community to your local community and let them know their culture has something to share with other culture as well. [laughter]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we have indigenous people, for example, in Taitung or in Hualien. These are the same people, 4,000 years ago, traveled through the sea, all the way through the islands, all the way into New Zealand, to the Māori culture, or to Madagascar, or to the Polynesians, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using the Internet, we can connect all these people together again, just like they connected through the stars, and navigation, a few thousand years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Internet becomes like a new ground for them to reconnect together in terms of language and culture, but first, you have to go and live with neighbors, and build your relationship, before you can introduce them to people who are just like them, who are actually their friends and families 1,000 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to build a trust with you first before you can introduce your elders to the elders to other communities." }, { "speaker": "Interviewer", "speech": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不好意思，稍微有一點耽擱，晚了3分鐘開始。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛正在協調「勞動合作社非雇傭關係社員」的勞務合約，不過已經協調到一個程度了。之前有收到上個版本email的朋友，現在應該都有收到一個叫做「協調版」的email，請以那一封的email為準。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常高興大家來社創的聯繫會議，我們這次一樣先講一下我們的記錄原則。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天大家第一次發言的時候，請先說一下怎麼稱呼，我們的速錄師會把大家講的話逐字記錄下來。並不會馬上公開，會有10個工作天，也就是14天的時間，在這個過程中，任何人都可以在共筆系統上進行修改。任何講的話，覺得出去可能會被斷章取義之類的，都很歡迎改成比較溫和的版本。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有提到一些相關的連結或者是事情的話，也很歡迎附上參考的文件、會後補充等等，全部都可以進行修正。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在公開逐字稿的時候，上次還有一個會前會，對於剛剛講的勞動合作社的事進行協調，那一份也會提供大家編輯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，在兩個禮拜之後，會有兩份逐字稿，也就是會前會的逐字稿跟今天會議的逐字稿，這個原則跟之前是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "再提醒一下大家，如果沒有問題的話，我們就先從議程開始。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "報告事項，案由一為歷次聯繫會議的辦理情形。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第一，有關社會創新實驗中心的無障礙空間，無障礙身障電梯已經在10月底時完工、對外提供服務。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第二，有關於社創相關座談會議辦理情形，針對社創會議未來拓展到其他縣市的相關機制，社創中心已經嘗試運用直播共學的模式，把北部學習資源擴散到台東、桃園等各縣市，未來會加強跟各地方的連結。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第三，本年社會企業世界論壇組團規劃事宜，這個已經列為報告案，請大家參考文字。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第四，有關於勞動力發展署「社會經濟入口網」資料授權開放之期程規劃。勞動部已依預定期程，於5月底完成社會經濟入口網，並於8月10日完成全部文章的授權開放，本案建議解除列管。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第五，有關於公司登記資訊公示平台設置「公司自行揭露事項」區之相關說明，本部新創圓夢網已經串接了商業司的登記資訊共識平台，未來會持續鼓勵企業章程揭露的資訊。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第六，下半年社創行動巡迴座談規劃，這一項已列為今日的報告案，請參閱文字。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第七，有關於107年至111年社會創新行動方案，本方案已經都依當初的建議修正了，經費總需求也調整為五年88億，並於107年8月7日核定公布。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第八，有關於社會創新共同服務採購契約共同說明，目前正在規劃第二次的社會創新勞務及財務案，目前有召開相關會議討論，應該要採用什麼樣的方式比較妥適，未來納入共同供應契約之商品應註明符合SDGs之項目，以促使大眾對於認知與認同。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第九，有關於社創中心與文化部共同項目的經費劃分，有關於社創中心整體配電工程事宜，文化部臺灣當代實驗場，於107年增建計畫中，「社會創新」提案今年未有入選提案，108年實驗場將持續以Master Plan進行整體規劃，其中也規劃實驗場為發展主軸，並持續與社創中心連結合作。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "另外與社創中心有關於變電站已納入文化部空總高壓電力改善統包工程案的履約範圍，該採購案刻正辦理第四次公告作業，預計11月中旬開標，12月底完成發包。以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後這算是要繼續列管或是建議解管？文化部跟空總這邊電力的部分，請中企處想一下。目前看起來都如期進行中，對不對？所以這一案就解管。因為事實上看起來沒有太大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "社會創新，確實在第一期creators徵件的時候，大概都是綠能相關的，但是沒有中選，我想明年有更多可以互相協助的部分，所以這個解管是ok的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第八案繼續列管，因為我們還沒有把第二次的採購契約弄好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第七案很明顯是解除列管，因為行動方案已經頒布了，下半年的規劃繼續請大家幫忙，但是這個案本身是可以解除列管，這個是第六點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第五，新創圓夢網公司登記的資訊，我們在新版的新創圓夢網，以及現在的新創圓夢網，是否都可以連到經濟部的公示資訊，這個在場的朋友知道嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "現在已經可以連到了。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "這幾天有26家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以有26家，會掛一個有公司章程登記的黃色招牌，有的話，也可以連回公布的章程，這樣非常好。非常感謝商業司及中企處的合作，我想這個可以解管。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "社會經濟入口網我也上去看，也沒有問題，那也同樣是可以解管。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本年度SEWF的部分，非常感謝這一次參與相當順利成功，我們也成功地讓SEWF願意協助我們來辦亞太論壇，也就是推薦講者與互相宣傳的工作，這是相當不容易，以前談都不是這樣子，所以非常非常謝謝大家在愛丁堡的貢獻，也解除列管。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "社創相關會議的部分，其實我們也知道直播共學只是剛開始，我們在接下來也會在全臺灣都會有類似社創這一種方式，讓在地的社會創新者自己來管理的一種空間，這邊特別寫了台東、花蓮主要的原因是，因為坐高鐵來office hour比較不方便，因此不是限制在東部，這邊的辦理情形是很ok的，看下一步的規劃出來，我們再提到這裡列管。至於本身只是要有規劃的這一件事，我覺得可以解管。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接著是回到無障礙的身障梯，跟在看逐字稿的朋友們講一下，第一案的身障梯是目前管社創中心二樓一半的活動，另外一邊是等空橋有搭了，才有坐輪椅的方式過去，那個時程我不是很確定，有同仁知道或者是要補充的嗎？也就是什麼時候可以到二樓的另外一邊？" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "4月。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管是空橋或是別的方式，就繼續列管到完成為止。我想無障礙是永遠沒有做到完美的，但是每一次都要做更好一點，非常感謝經濟部的說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看歷次聯繫會議辦理情形大家有沒有補充詢問或者是分享的部分？" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「案由二、組團參加2018年社會企業世界論壇成果」，請勞動部說明。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "主席、各位先進，以下是勞動部報告，參與2018年社會企業世界論壇成果報告，大綱部分請參閱。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "本次論壇的正式會議時間是2018年9月12日至14日，9月10日至11日大會有安排社企參訪，這一次主辦單位已經辦理十年，已遍及五大洲，今年再回到愛丁堡舉行，本次參加有47國、1,400多名代表參加，大會的會議主題訂為「啟發未來十年的影響力」。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "議題的範疇包含集結青年社企家、呼應聯合國永續發展目標，社會企業意識與社會企業教育、重要的經濟議題與企業市場，論壇的形式包含了社企參訪、主題演講、平行論壇、工作坊、辯論、大師講堂及參與式會議。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "這次由唐政委擔任團長，民間由喜憨兒基金會董事長蕭淑珍女士擔任副團長，勞動部於組團籌備期間，辦理說明會、爭取註冊費打折及中文翻譯，並補助27個單位44人，因此本次臺灣代表團人數達65人，大會主席在致詞時也特別感謝臺灣代表團的蒞臨。今年是臺灣代表團歷年參加SEWF中，講者人數最多，也是首次獲SEWF主辦方邀請擔任全會主持人。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第7頁，這是我們所參加的結構，參與講者的有8名，政府部門有10位，NPO有32位，企業界有11位，研究機構有3位，學校有1位。臺灣講者由唐政委擔任全會的主持，題目是行善科技（Tech for Good），余立委是擔任讓社會企業意識更上一層樓主題的講者。還有來自學術界、實際實務者受邀擔任社企的講者，總共有六位。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "社企參訪，參訪卡蘭德水利電廠參訪計畫、青年旅館，並與他們當地的社企交流、參訪愛丁堡的社企單位。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第11頁是參與論壇的會場，有他們報到的會場、開幕表演、政委拜訪指導委員創辦人及理事會主席。另有政委直播現場、與會人員與會議主持人的互動、團務會議。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第12頁是展攤的狀況，有政委蒞臨加油，還有理事會主席、余立委到場加油，我們展出的物品，及與會者互相交流，由我們的代表給予解說。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第13頁是這一次會議主要論壇觀察與心得建議如下：" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第一，「善用科技以創新方式解決社會問題」；第二，「傾聽年輕生在心聲，鼓勵世代合作創新」；第三，「消費者需求與社會價值訴求併重」；第四，「明確數據揭示社會影響力以爭取消費者認同」；第五，「政府的角色在於維持適於社會企業發展的生態系統」；第六，「促進跨域合作,鼓勵不同型態的社會企業間的實質合作」。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第七，「重視社會創新及鼓勵創業實踐精神,從教育體系紮根」；第八，「多元化資金籌措管道,協助新創社會企業度過建置期」；第九，「多元化的社會企業組織型態」；第十，「用多重指標組合建構『社會企業』定義」；第十一，「獲取國際社會企業發展新知」；第十二，「維持與SEWF指導委員會互動友好」；第十三，「推廣我國社會企業爭取國際曝光度」；第十四，「建立2019 年SEWF 主辦單位交流聯繫管道」。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第15頁是本次與會的交流成果：一、獲取國際社會企業發展新知；二、維持與SEWF指導委員會互動友好；三、推廣我國社會企業爭取國際曝光度；四、建立2019年SEWF主辦單位交流聯繫管道。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第16頁是在本次論壇之後有三場回國的分享，分別是在北區、中區及南區，邀請與會者跟沒有出國者互相交流、互動。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "第17頁未來發展是鼓勵民間持續參與SEWF等國際活動，明年預計在衣索比亞Addis Ababa舉行，將以社會企業新興地區的展望為題，相信他山之石有助於臺灣下一階段的發展，規劃持續支持民間組成臺灣代表團前往與會，持續掌握全球社企發展議題。" }, { "speaker": "勞動部代表", "speech": "本部已依社會企業行動方案整理組團，參與SEWF相關作業流程並提供外交部參考，以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝勞動部的簡報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一份簡報裡面看起來完全都是公開的資訊，是不是會後直接可以公開，我們就不用等逐字稿公開，如果大家覺得ok的話；主要的原因是有回國分享會的活動，所以報名還來得及，就盡早公開在網站上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次除了非常感謝各界的參與、喜憨兒基金會擔任副團長及民間召集之外，也想特別感謝外交部，因為這是第一次外交部加入我們籌備的活動，外交部不但出錢出力，因為勞動部的經費出了一些類似的狀況——希望明年不會有類似的狀況——外交部出錢、出力，也把國傳司非常好用的網域，也就是「taiwan.gov.tw」，等於是「si.taiwan.gov.tw」，給社會創新行動方案，在出國的時候，可以分享單一網站。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個意思是升格到像「ai.taiwan.gov.tw」同級，如果google「AI Taiwan」，第一筆應該就會是「ai.taiwan.gov.tw」，表示我們國家對AI的重視，SI也是同樣對社會創新的重視，所以非常感謝外交部國傳司、NGO司及各個駐處的幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也要感謝「si.taiwan」後面實際上的團隊，也就是IEIT，就是新創圓夢網的英文版。我不知道IEIT有沒有中文翻譯，可能類似「臺灣國際創業倡議」之類的，我亂翻的（笑）；感謝IEIT團隊幫忙外交部提供的網域底下，從亞洲、非洲、美洲的朋友們，可以一頁就看到臺灣各方面的工作，非常感謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次在愛丁堡看大家有沒有其他想要分享、詢問或者是指導的部分？" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "大家好，我是喜憨兒基金會，非常感謝各部會相關的協助，也讓我們不管是在國內或者是國外，其實受到非常多的協助與支持，讓整個團務相當順利。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "其實展攤的部分，我們有特別觀察，我們的攤位真的是最熱門、受歡迎的，我也相信組團的夥伴都有做非常多的準備，現場也有很多資料，讓國外的團體瞭解臺灣社會企業的發展，也針對明年度要舉辦類似SEWF在全世界各地，甚至更好的高峰會活動，也介紹給國外的朋友，我相信這一次的組團，除了讓愛丁堡相關社企的團體，認識到臺灣，也讓全世界的朋友認識臺灣在社企的發展，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實展攤的部分，不管是蘇格蘭的朋友或者是英國文化協會後來也跟我說對展攤印象深刻，光是蘇格蘭政府跟英格蘭政府可以辦活動，本身印象也相當深刻，可見社會創新、永續發展的這一件事是部分聯合王國，這個是大家覺得最安全的題目才會讓蘇格蘭、英格蘭可以一起主辦，所以對於臺灣永續發展的貢獻，我們叫做「暖實力」，這個逐漸很好用的題目，所以的確是在蘇格蘭、英格蘭都可以在助力的情況下去處理，這個是很好的機會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝勞動部的報告，看看大家有沒有詢問或者是分享的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我想這一份簡報可以提前公開。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "下一個。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「案由三，教育部USR計畫申請對象與資源配置問題」，請教育部說明。" }, { "speaker": "鄭淑真", "speech": "主席、各位與會的代表大家好，教育部技職司作一個簡要的說明。" }, { "speaker": "鄭淑真", "speech": "我想大家都很關注USR的計畫，跟大家報告一下，這個是一個以在地連結、人才培育的核心計畫，我們的目的是希望引導學校，以人為本，從在地的需求出發，透過人文關懷、解決社區問題的概念來善盡社會責任，所以我們常常說大學是地方智庫、地方政府的各項發展都可以跟這個智庫做一些連結。" }, { "speaker": "鄭淑真", "speech": "我們的計畫是鼓勵老師帶領學生跨科系、團隊、學校連結，去跟地方政府來作一些連結，讓我們的學生瞭解真實社會面臨的問題，如何透過課程的學習及場域連結之後來解決問題，所以我們計畫申請的對象會是大專校院。" }, { "speaker": "鄭淑真", "speech": "大專校院在執行計畫的重點，是在這樣的過程中培育學生專業知識、場域連結，透過專業知識的方式去協助場域解決所遇到的問題，因此每個學校所獲得的補助經費都用在課程開發、實作教材費、帶領學生去這個場域、蒐集資料、盤點問題及實際執行這一些計畫所需要的費用。" }, { "speaker": "鄭淑真", "speech": "所以對於社企平台所提出來，希望這一個計畫的經費可以讓社企團體或者是讓地方政府可以一起分享的這個議題，教育部這邊認為好像跟我們現在在做的人才培育這一件事是有所不吻合，因此可能要跟各位說明一下，這個是USR推動的精神與方向，以上說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。確實USR在北部、南部各辦過一次展覽，分別是在臺大跟大鵬灣，兩次我都有去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "USR的成果其實非常豐碩。它有一個口號，這個口號非常有真實性的，也就是「有大學的地方就有希望」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為以前我們確實跟地方政府，或者是社區發展協會往往會受到行政區劃的問題，是某一個區就會在那一區，如果是一個里的話，資源不可能會配置超過那個里，大學就沒有這個問題，因為大學的學生來自四面八方，服務的對象是以實際的需求，是以一條河、山脈作為範圍，不受行政區劃的限制，所以這個是USR在執行上非常好的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然執行了這麼好，免不了就會有各種政策上的期待，所以這個是讓教育部有一個機會來說明一下，USR並不是不能編經費，但這個經費是人才培育、教材、教法去提高大學各系所對於周邊區域的覺察為核心，也就是以價值與人才培育為核心，這個應該是USR計畫的根本。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以也是希望大家可以多瞭解一下，不要把他們當作政策目標承載的工具，因為智庫是幫忙想的，而不是執行的，如果全部都變執行的話，那其實不太能夠叫做地方的智庫了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我也想提醒一下，CSR的部分，因為新公司法上路的關係，接下來CSR揭露的事項會越來越多、揭露的家數也會越來越多，揭露的時候有一個想法是，我們會希望企業能夠儘量用永續發展目標，因為他們現在是用ESG進行會計的時候，本來有的就會在企業社會責任報告裡面於第一章就會提出我們做的今年CSR是SDG第10、12項等等，不會寫到幾點幾，但是會寫得更好，但是至少會做分類上的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果USR是脫胎於CSR的話，是不是USR也可以稍微想一下，在每一年的成果報告、分享中，也不需要另外再填一個表單，就是在你們的主旨加上這一個計畫是相關於SDG3、5、6或幾點幾，以後我們只要用全文檢索的技術，就可以把USR對應到社創團隊正在解決永續發展的指標即使沒有辦法立刻撥到社創團隊來，但是中間的綜合效果才可以發現，不然執行到第二年第一次結案的時候，旁邊才發現有這樣的一件事，這樣比較可惜，所以如果有可能的話，盡可能共用169細項或至少17大項的指標，這樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭淑真", "speech": "跟主席報告，上次在大鵬灣我們的計畫主持人郭老師跟您談過之後，其實在昨天跟上週五計畫執行的成效說明會之間，已經把這一項指標納入，而且要求220個計畫都必須上去填是符合169項的哪一項，所以跟政委報告，如果這樣順利的話，也許在明年2月底整個考核技術，這個資料會盤點出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。這樣明年2月會有一個全臺灣跟永續發展相關的對應表格，USR就可以加入變成雷達上的一個部分，未來外交部在撰寫「國家型自願報告」時就多很多題材可以用，因為我們每年都要對聯合國有一個自願性的國家報告，所以我想這一件事把USR的成果計畫納入對於國際上看到臺灣的貢獻是非常有幫助的，所以非常感謝郭老師的協助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有其他的詢問或者是想法或者是分享？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，下一個。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「案由四，社會創新行動巡迴座談辦理情形請鑒察，由經濟部說明」。" }, { "speaker": "謝孟錡", "speech": "政委、各位長官好，在這邊說明一下有關於社創巡迴座談目前辦理的情形，我們現在從7月份新制的座談會辦理至今已經辦了三場的座談與活動，也已經蒐集了業者大概30項的問題。接下來我們會在台東、台南、南投及屏東辦理後續的座談及參考活動。" }, { "speaker": "謝孟錡", "speech": "非常感謝各部會的大力幫忙，現在各部會都已經針對業者的提問，不管是跨部會的議題或者是單一議題都有提出建議與回覆了，目前30題，還有7題是需要各部會的幫忙，後續請衛福部、財政部、原民會、內政部、台中市政府再協助到平台上回覆相關的問題。" }, { "speaker": "謝孟錡", "speech": "另外，這30項的問題當中，有牽扯到跨部會比較有爭議的問題，包含合作社理念價值培育、具體做法、對於具文化公益社會性小旅行及民宿法規限制，還有勞動合作社適用合作基準法妥適性的這三個問題，前一陣子已經透過三次的會前會，有得到一個初步的共識了，後續還要再請相關部會協助。" }, { "speaker": "謝孟錡", "speech": "其中對於小旅行跟縣市的部分，這部分會委由行政院地方創生會報當中討論，之後再請國發會進行後續的協處。" }, { "speaker": "謝孟錡", "speech": "最後，請相關部會幫忙繼續針對明年社創巡迴座談及參訪部分，請各部會跟我們推薦適合辦理座談會的地點與參訪的地點。" }, { "speaker": "謝孟錡", "speech": "另外，也要請各部會幫忙，要記得上線回覆業者提問，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們改成新制之後，社創行動巡迴，其實在每一場都有一個部會當作智庫，也就是當作籌備的主責機關，這樣的好處是可以把在同一個區域討論同一件事的朋友們，從一個部會的角度，去把它做一個策展，並不是像之前一樣，主要是從中企處的角度來策展，因為中企處跟我們講說巡邏一年下來，差不多口袋名單用光了，需要協調也差不多在中企處沙盒的機制底下協調差不多了，所以才會改成一個新制，也不會讓大家一定要兩個禮拜就跑到空總一次，而是實際具體有事情的時候，一個月一次，並不是一個月兩次。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然我自己還是會一個月兩次做參訪與巡迴，只是會實際蒐集到具體的問題，然後每個月請大家來對這一些問題進行座談，因此管考強度當然沒有減低，但是管考密度變成之前的1/2，希望大家都還習慣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，有關於地點方面，我們之前都是在行政院各個不同的辦公中心，主要有一個政策目的，希望他們可以習慣遠距辦公視訊會議的事情，繞了這一件事之後，器材都沒有問題了，也不侷限於行政院各辦公中心，希望社創中心開幕時，跟賴院長講的一樣，其實真正的社會創新的社會問題不會在六都，我們會盡可能去到各個不同的都會以外的縣市來參訪，討論的部分也許在六都、也許不在六都，但是盡可能會比較平均做區域上的平衡，不會像以前那樣子一定要在行政院某個特定的地方，視訊的部分也繼續都有進步，很感謝各個部會協助策展、配合。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有一些是地方創生的事情，像小旅行會轉到會報，事情不會需要我協調，也會有主責部會協調，像內政部、勞動部適用的案件，這個部分隨時大家一覺得見解不同時，就儘量使用我，我們可以開任何數量次數的會前會，沒有任何限制，一個月跟一個月間要開五次沒有問題的，是要協調好為止，要讓與會的人知道提出問題並不是解釋問題，而是解決問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有要分享、詢問或者是調整的部分？" }, { "speaker": "張富林", "speech": "有關簡報上所呈現的小旅行及民宿法規限制議題處理，之前在行政院地方創生會報有討論過，交通部觀光局已召開會議在處理，在簡報上這部分列國發會，是不是可以將主辦的機關改列交通部觀光局？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個未來由行政院創生會報進行後續協處，這樣可以嗎？因為這在會報當中討論，或是你們那邊已經明確到觀光局，以後也不會再到別的部會？" }, { "speaker": "張富林", "speech": "除非觀光局處理議題涉及跨部會事項沒能解決，才會提到行政院地方創生會報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，「未來由交通部進行初步處理，如須跨部會協調再請國發會後續協處」這個字樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "交通部要面對業者的壓力。11月27日就要開地方創生會報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「初步處理」要不要改成「初步進行規劃」？「如需跨部會協調請國發會進行後續協處」，是不是先改成這樣的文字？看大家對於這個文字是不是還ok？或者是簡報任何地方有沒有別的意見？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "下一個。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「討論事項 案由一：勞動合作社適用勞動基準法之妥適性，請討論」。請內政部。" }, { "speaker": "陳佳容", "speech": "首先，我要感謝唐政委的主導，真的有長足跨了一大步，這個在我合作行政三十年來第一次有這樣的突破，也要感謝中小企業處在前面會前會召開了兩次，包含剛剛小型的會前會。" }, { "speaker": "陳佳容", "speech": "我還是要在這邊借這個機會跟大家報告，合作社的社員及關係，我想在座可能有參加主婦聯盟為合作社社員，但是合作社社員是什麼樣的地位？因為他有出資，所以是一個所有者，因此可以投票、決議，所以是一個經營者，當然是使用合作社的業務，所以是一個利用者、使用者，包括合作社的結餘是按照每一個社員的貢獻度去處理，所以有四個身分，經營者、所有者、使用者及分配者，所以我們一定不會認為跟主婦聯盟合作社有雇傭關係，一般的合作社是沒有這樣的概念。" }, { "speaker": "陳佳容", "speech": "比較大的問題是勞動合作社，參加合作社就是為了要參加勞務去得到工作、就業機會或者是獲得更好的勞動報酬，因此在勞動合作社跟合作社間到底有無雇傭關係可能很多外界不太清楚，因此感謝政委釐清。" }, { "speaker": "陳佳容", "speech": "最主要是因為所有勞動合作社或者是外部採購時，常常當作是雇傭關係，因此合約上的限制，門檻很高，沒有辦法跨進去，如果跨進去就認定是雇傭關係存在。存在有什麼問題？事實上沒有雇主，所以必須自己百分之百自己要承受成本無法轉嫁，所以對勞動合作社來講沒有辦法經營，對於定型化契約也就是非屬雇傭關係，大家可以提出來跟特別考慮它的特性，我們先說明到這裡，也感謝政委的協助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們的協調版，有文字就請投影出來，您再口頭補充。" }, { "speaker": "陳茂春", "speech": "我是內政部主秘，很感謝政委的協調，工程會採購契約範本第8條第16款、增訂第17款，剛剛也跟勞動部提及，在政委的協調下，也就是按照這樣標準的條款來做，工程會不曉得有沒有什麼意見。" }, { "speaker": "陳茂春", "speech": "過去最主要的是，這麼多年來我的感覺是，剛剛副主任提到的，大家對於合作社基本的概念都不是那麼清楚，所以一直有很大的誤解。如果沒有雇傭關係的時候，強制要在契約範本裡面提「勞工保障權益切結書及就業許可證」，這個是不可行的，因為本身不是雇傭的關係，就是校長兼敲鐘，就是這麼簡單。透過這一次的修正之後，至少有一個公平參與的機會，大家會比較釋懷，我作這樣的補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為現在實際的字樣還沒有出現在螢幕上，我們很難就事論事來討論，回到這個案由本身。為何會討論這一件事？主要的原因是9月7日、10月29日那一場，業者都有反映工程會的勞務採購契約範本與衛福部長照特約契約書對於承攬合約當中，如果是勞動合作社進行承攬的話，因為當時勞動注意事項是由勞動部寫的，勞動部當然是勞動的主管機關，寫了有雇傭關係的文字上去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是當勞動合作社進行承攬的時候，其實是沒有辦法滿足雇傭關係，因此產生了見解上的一些困難，後來在經過會前會討論的時候，我們希望明訂非屬雇傭關係的社員，這個給予特定的地位，當然必須給予所有社員一樣，就像合團司所說的，有投票權、運行事務等等，不能因為要承攬這一件事，忽然間從機關指定一個人進來，而變成社員的情況，也就是一個完整的社員，在這樣的情況下，他的工作條件是由他的自行約定方式來進行，而不是把它當作是所謂的雇傭關係，因此這大概是這一次協調版的精神。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在有投影了，我們可以實際看一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我稍微介紹一下這一件事，等一下再請勞動部發表意見，簡單來講這個是承攬契約的範本，而這個範本當中，因為也有提到派駐的勞工，但是其實勞工是一個特定的名詞，現在是說「廠商為合作社，而提供勞務的人非屬雇傭關係的社員時」，直接跳到第17款，我們寫了一個新款，叫做「合作社社員權益保障」，方式是跟勞動基準法的保障，我們希望要有類似的強度，但畢竟不是勞工，所以是用另外的方法來撰寫。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這樣的關係，所以我們在16-4的地方，也把「提供勞務者」的字樣寫進去，並不是特別訂是勞工或者是社員，也就是提供勞務者，所以所有的重點都在新的第17項，「非屬雇傭關係之社員適用」，之後會跟逐字稿一起發布。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大致的意思是，雖然在合作社自治的精神底下，但是不管是公共意外險、團體意外險的相關東西，大概不能弱於類似勞基法的狀況，當然如果有一些自行約定事項的話，機關也可以說機關額外要求一些事項去蓋過合作社自行約定的事項，並不是要讓勞動合作社可以用比較不好的工作條件來接案；相反的，鼓勵勞動合作社能夠盡可能讓它的社員透過社員大會把好的勞動條件訂出來，在每一個人等於都是老闆的情況下去進行接案，而不會被排除，因此這應該是協調之前的版本，但是沒有關係，我想我們看一下勞動部對於我們剛剛的討論有沒有什麼想法或者其他的意見。" }, { "speaker": "陳毓雯", "speech": "政委、各位工作夥伴大家午安，我是勞動部勞動關係司，我是陳毓雯。有關於上次會議，政委指示我們協助內政部來針對勞務採購契約範本來表達意見，我們有提供書面意見給內政部參考，我們想要在這個會議當中表達我們還是建議會後有關於正確的文字部分，也就是內政部正式行文給我們，我們會提供正式的文字表達正式的立場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛看到刪掉逗號變成句號，或如果是社員的話，就不算「薪資」，而是要叫做「報酬」，這都是勞動部先進給我們的指導。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然像「各機關得於招標文件，視個案增訂其需用條件」，這個同樣是機關還是要求好比像休假或工作時數，雖然你們合作社自己這樣約定，但機關還是要有一些基本的把關約定，剛才我們也詳細討論了，如果大家自己都是校長兼撞鐘的話，「獎懲」二字到底還有沒有意義？可能也沒有意義了，所以「獎懲辦法」已經拿掉了，這是剛剛協調的具體結果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "勞動部建議我們可以做出決議，依這個協調版，我們一個字都不要改地發文，按照今天會議的決議去給勞動部，勞動部在簽呈的時候會比較順利一點，比較不會文來文往，這個是用共筆的科技進入行政流程的一個實例，因為大家在同一份文件改，比較不會像公文在文來文往花時間，大家共筆完就結束了。不曉得處長有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "主席、各位先進，這個是政委主持的會議，如果結論是這樣子的話，他們應該不用再行文了吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們是說「依決議行文」，這邊按照這個決議辦理。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "這是行政院層級的決議了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是這樣子。那處長建議文字怎麼撰寫比較妥當？" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "如果文字ok的話，他們就按照這樣去辦就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。看勞動部覺得怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "陳毓雯", "speech": "因為前幾次的會議，基本上都是會前會的性質，我們也積極地配合這個會議，趕快表達意見，但是我們一直都沒有辦法能夠循正常程序，有一個簽辦之後，表達勞動部比較正式的意見，或針對這一個案子的立場。" }, { "speaker": "陳毓雯", "speech": "所以站在勞動部的立場，我們積極協助內政部來處理這個問題，也希望可以正式簽辦我們的意見，也表達勞動部在這一個案子的態度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們的逐字稿都是14天之後會公開，如果要行文，文跑得快的話，理論上14天應該要到你們那邊了，所以如果你們有一些書面的意見，我的建議會是兩個併行，我們現在這一份協調稿，會後用email的方式給大家，大家該寫的意見都先撰擬，我會建議自己會在政務會議的時候，也把這一件事向院長報告，因為這畢竟算是比較多年以來的情況改變，我們也會希望工程會的主委在政務會議時知道這一件事，大家做起事來比較容易，所以我想我會在政務會議報告，是不是要內政部行文處長還是有一些想法。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "會議紀錄就是這樣做，大家回去簽，其他人有意見就來，如果內容沒有什麼改或者是小改，就是這樣，不要再那邊文來文去，因為已經是行政院層級的協調結果，這樣協調很多事情又要回到部會再走。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想回去簽，簽的過程中當然可以發表意見，這個是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果問題只是字樣上修改的話，我想就請處裡面直接修正修改，如果不是字要修改，而是忽然間見解要修改，那就只好再回到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "廖耀宗", "speech": "就請政委再請那兩個部會來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。為什麼需要在這裡先讓大家知道，因為未來各機關都是可能的招標機關，讓大家知道這一件事的存在，我覺得也是有價值的，但是細部的字樣如果之後還需要協調的話，我們就會直接對內政跟勞動量部來協調，我想就按照處長的建議來辦理，非常感謝建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於衛福部的部分，看衛福部目前有沒有什麼補充或者是想法？" }, { "speaker": "吳希文", "speech": "我們這邊長照服務契約的範本，大概會依後續勞動契約的範本修訂完的結果，就會去做服務契約範本的修訂，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我也有口頭和呂次長，在社創週年的時候先進行脈絡上的說明，希望你們簽辦可以比較順利。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有碰到任何困難的話，都歡迎隨時回到我這邊來，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除了這三個部會以外，有沒有其他要說？" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "報告政委，很感謝政委的協調，內政部基於勞動合作社之組織特性，擬修正本會「勞務採購契約範本」，就履約人員為合作社社員另有權益保障約定乙節，建議社員權益保障條款應以不低於適用勞基法之履約人員勞動條件為原則，避免外界誤會參與政府採購案之履約人員有調降勞動條件情形，必要時內政部得就個案進行實地訪查，瞭解機關、合作社與履約社員實際履約情形，以為周延，如內政部擬成立工作圈研議相關事項，本會配合辦理。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "有關勞務採購契約範本修正內容，請內政部先與勞動部確認內容是否妥適。未來如需修正勞務採購契範本，本會將依程序配合辦理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。也具體說明，機關不定期抽訪跟申訴管道都有明文寫在協調版了，第17款第1目有文字可以看一下：「機關應依商業保險費支付，並以相同條件參加職業災害保險之費用為上限」，這一句話我們在協調的時候，也想說工程會的專業，到底這個是不是「依商業保險費支付」，或者怎麼樣改這個字可以到你們所期待的，也就是保障不要低於勞基法的情況，如果字樣細部需要修正的話，也歡迎工程會循正常程序時給我們一些指導，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看其他部會同仁有沒有其他的想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就按照協調版做成決議，按照處長講的回去簽，如果有任何的意見，隨時讓我們知道。下一個。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "「案由二、2019亞太社企高峰會辦理規劃」，請討論案。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "很高興上個禮拜六的時候，社會創新實驗中心的週年慶有安排了台中市政府、高雄市政府的貴賓，以及今年辦理的社企流、明年的喜憨兒的夥伴，我們將一起共同於明年5月11日、12日一起辦理亞太社企高峰會議。我們經濟部邀請的夥伴當中，等一下會報告的喜憨兒基金會、Impact Hub、B corp及社企流，今天他們都有一起列席，我們等一下請他們作報告。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "相關部會不管是講者或者是多元回饋的機制，請大家多給我們一些意見，以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以確定是叫做「啟動亞洲」（Activate Asia），這個是滿好的題目；至於幾何元素的符號，看起來是祖靈充滿的設計理念。看設計者有沒有解釋或是報告的部分？" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "謝謝政委，我稍微解釋一下logo，其實不只是祖靈的元素，其實是從亞洲的「亞」延伸出來的，所以可以看到是「亞洲」的「亞」，然後慢慢拆解之後變成是幾何圖形。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "為何這樣用？我們之後在不同場合的時候，像有工作坊的時候，就用這一種不同的幾何圖形去拼出不同的樣式來代表不同的會議，大家比較好辨認今天是來到市集或者是工作坊，所以透過這樣的方式來做，這是我們設計的理念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常棒，同時也有編織的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來我們請喜憨兒進行報告。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "各位夥伴大家好，我是喜憨兒基金會，我是楊琇雁。「明日亞洲」在社企流的帶領之下，今年是第一次辦，第一年由社企流舉辦，Sunny一接主辦之後就有喜了，在高峰會開幕那一天很順利生下了社企寶寶，所以再次掌聲謝謝他們。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "今年第一次在社企流的主辦及各單位的協助之下，我們其實是非常開心、順利圓滿完成了第一次在亞太地區所辦的社企研討高峰會，在這幾次的合作之下，可以跟各位部會的工作夥伴慢慢有好的默契。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "明年很開心會在高雄舉辦第二次，希望可以透過大家的協助，可以讓高峰會越辦越好。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "我們為何要辦社企高峰會？因為社企在社創的議題下是很重要的一環，社創的聯繫會議當中大家也越來越瞭解社會企業的重要，其實是展現社會創新非常重要行動、表達方式之一，也希望透過社會企業去讓更多的組織團體有更多不同的想法、模式，以解決社會的問題。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "其實臺灣為何會有這樣的資格，可以在亞太辦國際高峰會？我相信不管是在民間政府共同的合作之下，臺灣的社企已經是非常豐富多元了，不單是型態上的豐富，不管是NPO、企業或者是跨業的合作上都有相當多的展現，我們也希望透過長期累積來的社會企業發展，可以在國際上全球都可以更加發光發熱。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "我們希望透過這幾次高峰會的交流、對話，然後來跟我們所有的夥伴，不管是國內或者是國外的夥伴來進行多元的對話，我們也期待高峰會只是兩天的活動，但是如何持續成為一個發展的平台，甚至成為亞洲的社創基地，這個是我們在這個高峰會持續努力的，也希望可以跟政府習慣部會的一些活動或者是方案來作長期的結合。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "再來，這一次是由喜憨兒基金會進行主辦，很開心基金會今年已經成立24年了，明年是25週年，在這個過程中，我們也希望透過社會企業的模式，來提供這一些身心障礙者有更多的就業機會，有更多自立自強的就業環境。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "剛剛的科長也跟各位介紹過了，這一次的主辦除了喜憨兒基金會以外，還有行政院各部會的協助，還有相關的主辦，像Impact Hub、B Lab持續加入。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "剛剛政委也有提到明年活動當中，我們也可以加入了SEWF這一位重要的全球夥伴，因為十年前在愛丁堡小小的城市，由原來的200人（參與），陸續參加這五年來，都有超過1,200人參與，而且是每一年在不同的洲別去辦社會企業論壇，都有知名度，還有在社會企業的公信力，因此這一次也希望透過跟他們的合作，希望一方面展現實力，一方面是國際社企的夥伴，能夠看到臺灣這邊的發展。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "再來跟大家報告比較具體的部分，我們這一次的高峰會是在高雄的展覽館進行舉辦，現在高雄非常熱鬧——很緊張——我是高雄人，所以我也非常緊張。日期非常好記，就是母親節，是5月11日、12日，歡迎跟母親過完節之後到高雄來參加這一次的活動。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "這一次高峰會的人數是1,200人左右，我們會透過網路直播，希望這樣的高峰會能夠分享與參與的人，可以透過網路無國界，我相信很多國外社企的夥伴雖然沒有辦法來參與，也可以網路直播，也可以瞭解高峰會的內容。也有社會企業市集的部分，也可以透過宣傳，可以有更多的瞭解，希望認識社企的民眾來瞭解社會企業。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "我們可以作為整個明年度高峰會的主軸及重點，第一個是有提到這一次整個的主軸是「啟動亞洲」，我們在明年辦理的是「明日亞洲」，所以從看到未來展望，如何從臺灣做很重要的動力啟動，這一次在第二屆辦的用意，我們希望透過啟動來發覺更多的能量、潛力來解決社會的問題。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "我們也要邀請大家一起來支持我們這三個原則，在所有活動籌備的前、中、後希望有三個原則來進行：" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "第一個是要在地，因為我們在高雄辦理，在議題的部分會加入海洋，在團體邀請的部分，我們希望把社企的力量注入在地當中，希望讓它發芽。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "第二，臺灣是一個科技島，因此我們會希望在整個峰會辦理的過程中，融入科技各項的創新。再來，所有辦理的過程中，我們會希望它能夠是永續的，而不造成浪費，而能夠做成環境上的保護，所以我們會秉持這三個原則來辦理相關的高峰會活動。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "再來，透過這個高峰會，我們希望可以達到五個目的：" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "第一，剛剛政委有提到如何連結聯合國永續發展目標SDG；第二，透過國際高峰會的辦理，很重要的是能夠創造國際連結的機會；第三，如何透過這個機會的連結、高峰會辦理來擴大整個臺灣不單單是社會企業，而是臺灣的影響力，我們也會希望透過這樣的高峰會，讓各界有興趣都能夠在這邊做夥伴的關係及企業參與。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "其實整個企業的發展，很初期臺灣是從NPO發展，像我們是喜憨兒，現在很多企業參與、銀行融資的部分，各領域的人都可以透過高峰會來互相了解，其實有非常多的人不瞭解社會企業，因此我們也希望透過高峰會能夠讓更多的人來瞭解社企。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "接下來請各位幫我們注意一下，這一次主要七個議題，在行政院與政委共同討論出來，我們會以這七個議題來進行規劃（如簡報），所以有講者推薦的話，請讓我們知道是focus在哪一個議題上，讓我們做更好議程的安排。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "首先是「科技創新」，如何從Tech for Good看到社會企業；「海洋生態」、「氣候行動」、「循環經濟」三個議題會環環相扣，面對於天災、人禍及氣候變遷不管造成環境或者是社會問題，看我們如何透過社會企業來做相關的思考與解決。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "接著是有關於「弱勢夥伴」的部分，我們如何透過社會企業有創新的商業模式或者是服務模式來增加他們在社會上自立更生的能力；有關於「夥伴關係企業社會創新」這一塊剛剛有提到，這個部分給各位夥伴參考。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "接著下一頁，我們這七個議題與SDGs相關聯的部分，我們這邊也有說明，也跟各位參考。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "再者於議程規劃的部分，除了一定會有的主題演講之外，我們也有工作坊，這次我們特別安排世界咖啡館及社企下午茶，我們常常在參加研討會，其實這一位講者非常好，但是接觸的機會只有演講20分鐘，但是很多的問題及非常多的議題希望可以跟好不容易從國外邀請來的這一社企講者來交流，但是一直苦無機會，在休息的時間還要到處尋找他們，因此這一次是透過世界咖啡館，我們希望讓講者除了在台上演講之外，也有其他的時間可以跟社企夥伴、政府部門、相關單位來作一些更深入的交流，因此用了非常貴的場地辦了兩場的世界咖啡館，也希望為臺灣社會企業更扎實。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "剛才提到社企市集及晚宴，非常期待各部會來參加，我們有非常漂亮的海景來晚餐，海景對國外的朋友來說是非常奢侈的部分。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "有關於議程的設計，我們兩天有初步的議程設計出來。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "有關於講者邀約的名單，目前我們在keynote的部分，希望邀請到Clinton基金會的人作相關議程的分享，其實海洋吸塵器的創辦人在之前總統府創新獎也有邀請過，我們也希望他們跟我們氣候變遷部分，其實有比較多的扣聯，其他的部分也請大家參考。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "另外，我們也有舉辦社企小旅行的部分，也結合我們的議題來作規劃。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "有關於社企市集的辦理，是在會場的周遭來做社企市集辦理，也可以讓與會的人員方便來參加。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "接著有提到如何運用很多創新科技的部分，我們也會有活動APP、現場也會有即時QA都可以使用。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "另外，整個期程的規劃是，我們在明年2月18日會有記者會的啟動，在5月11日、12日都可以做高峰會的辦理。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "行銷的規劃也需要各部會來做相關的協助，像做相關的推廣。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "經費的預算也非常需要各部會非常需要幫忙的地方，目前編列出來大概是2,200萬。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "跟大家稍微說明一下，各部會如果有贊助方案的話，我們大致上有規劃幾個可以對應的部分，請各部會的夥伴可以參考一下，當然會有一些文宣露出、相關手冊露出，我們目前有規劃media，所以也有一些影片的露出，相關的內容也可以請各位參考。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "還有在活動辦理上有一些部分，如果各部會可以提供協助的話，也歡迎隨時跟我們聯絡。" }, { "speaker": "楊琇雁", "speech": "最後，我們希望可以透過這樣的高峰會，也讓各部會瞭解到整個社會企業的發展，也成為我們社會企業發展的一份子，邀請大家啟動更好的未來，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝，我們是不是先鼓掌一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常棒的簡報，完成度非常高，我們這次「啟動亞洲」有充足的時間籌備，真的比上次充足多了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也非常感謝Sunny團隊，在上次幾乎沒有任何籌備時間的情況下，可以把「明日亞洲」做得這麼好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一次的簡報會跟逐字稿一起公開，大家比較知道每一頁在講什麼，但是裡面除了時間、地點是確定的，每一個部會在看過之後，如果有一些新的想法或者是覺得希望的回饋或者是要推薦的講者並不是上面所講的那樣，一切都可以跟籌備團隊進行討論；這個email本來是壞掉的，但是今天修好了，也可以直接寫信到上面去，應該是四個團隊都會收到，這個是不是共用的？" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "是秘書處會收到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "關於這樣的想法，有沒有要討論或者是詢問的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都沒有的話，是不是請中企處跟我們分享一下？" }, { "speaker": "胡貝蒂", "speech": "因為有今年辦理的經驗，各部會想到有關於回饋方案部分，是不是可以推薦幾個講者，如果有一些經費贊助的話，像原民會特別關心原民的講者，是不是可以可以有舞臺分享他們的經驗，這一些回饋的方案是不是可以說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有參與今年的話，這個回饋是不是很類似？基本上跟今年是相同的？" }, { "speaker": "Sunny", "speech": "刪掉一些。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以還是有一些調整，看籌備團隊這邊有沒有要說明的？如果受邀擔任高峰會講者的話，其實還是要放在相關的議程裡面，但是因為這七個主題其實滿寬的，請Sunny講一下。" }, { "speaker": "Sunny", "speech": "我講一下回饋方案的部分，這一次的回饋方案跟去年是類似的，但是去年場地跟今年的場地差滿多的，去年在台中的園區，有很多的空間，所以有一些曝光的欄位其實是在酒廠外面，但是今年因為這個場地比較不是這樣的規劃，所以我們刪去了一些展館面整個擺攤的小空間，但是有新增了一個單一場次冠名，過去是沒有的，過去是場地的冠名，但是這次也參考了SEWF的經驗，如果企業對於冠名單一場次是可以的。" }, { "speaker": "Sunny", "speech": "另外，我們也參考國外研討會的操作，所以除了主議程的會場之外，也會有第二現場，也就是專門做媒體的曝光、採訪等等，這兩個是最大的差別，其他應該其實跟去年是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對講者的想法、要求或者是可以討論的部分，是不是可以請Impact Hub。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "有關於議題的部分，也是已經在詢問了，歡迎各單位可以把名單給我們，像原民會給我們臺灣的夥伴，還有臺灣表現非常好，或者是像tech for good，歡迎跟秘書處聯絡，我們可以洽詢詢問意願。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一年前籌備的時候還沒有問海委會，因為還沒有海委會，但是現在有海委會了，因此很希望海委會的朋友，因為畢竟海洋跟永續也是貴會的主題，所以如果有一些老師自己有過不管是創業或是認識很棒這種可以對海洋永續有貢獻的一些社會企業，也非常歡迎海委會推薦給我們，謝謝海委會的朋友。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看其他的朋友有沒有其他要提出的詢問或者是想法？" }, { "speaker": "呂貞慧", "speech": "我想請教一下，因為這一次的時間是選在5月11日、12日，是有特別的用意嗎？因為今年在台中我記得是選在母親節前一個禮拜，這一次挑在母親節，用意如何？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該是場地方的偏好。簡單來講日本要租這麼大的空間沒有別的日期了，就是這樣，並不是特別的用意，我跑去高展跟他們談的，是這樣的情況，那是比較熱門的場地。" }, { "speaker": "吳明機", "speech": "會議之前胡副也召開部會的協調會，當然今年協調外交部、衛福部、農委會、原民會、教育部、文化部、客委會，還有部裡面最大的贊助商，還有海洋委員會也邀請進來，我們分攤的總數額就不方便提，因為還在協調，我們希望將來政府不到5％的經費來提。" }, { "speaker": "吳明機", "speech": "協調會議有一些部會需要帶回去再請示，有一些部會意願可能需要再push，也會部會表示，像內政部、科技部都是很重要的部會，是不是有機會可以一起參與？我在這邊先作這樣的討論，今天是第一次協調會，後續還會再開會。" }, { "speaker": "吳明機", "speech": "金管會雖然一般我們的瞭解是沒有這方面的費用，但是由他來push這一些上市櫃公司，也是非常重要的效果，因此這一個部會陸續也會拜託金管會幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "社會金融在各國都是很熱門的主題，我想我們會繼續跟金管會的朋友們進行一些說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "內政部在這一次會被提到的一個主要原因是以前內政部人民團體，像協會控一個子公司的社會企業型態不存在，但是現在存在了，或者是合作社正式被納入到社會企業來，正式變成社會企業的組織形態，而且是現在最重點的組織形態之一，這個也是上次社會行動方案之後並沒有明文納入，所以內政部的工作，至少曝光度一定會因此而增加，我也知道合團司的經費相當有限，但是以內政部全部來講，如果覺得至少有一些朋友或者是同仁能夠來這邊，不一定進行分享，至少先讓大家看到社會企業跟內政部的關聯，是不是拜託內政部也可以回去詢問一下，並沒有一定要多少的意思，而是怎麼樣都好，讓大家有一個參與感。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在台中這一次，也就是「明日亞洲」的時候，背板一字排開的logo有很象徵的意義，有些英國朋友很羨慕，他們做公民社會策略的相關部會，像DCMS，也就是「數位」、「文化」、「媒體」、「運動」在同一個，但比較不容易協調別的部會，所以他們的教育部是敬表支持，但是篇幅比較不大；當然蘇格蘭非常看重，我們在這一種國際性活動的時候，即使只出一點，但是logo打在那邊是差很多的，所以請今天有出席的各部會，都盡可能幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有想要詢問或者是討論的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接著有沒有下一個？" }, { "speaker": "陳佳容", "speech": "第二次發言，抱歉，歡樂氛圍底下之後要回到嚴肅的議題，案由一的說明四還沒有處理。" }, { "speaker": "陳佳容", "speech": "剛剛所處理的是定型化契約範本的修正，另外是招標文件當中，我們常常發現有一些不合理的要求，我們建議機關能夠考量合作社跟社員間的法律關係，不應該有不當的限制，比如剛剛主任有提到的，像勞工權益切結書或者是就業服務許可證的相當類似文字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。麻煩開一下協調版的最底下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從「目前招標機關辦理」這邊，我們剛才跟勞動部初步討論的文句，但是還沒有會工程會的朋友，所以我在這邊先逐字稿唸出來一遍，才能列入逐字紀錄，目前的想法是：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「目前招標機關辦理勞務承攬招標案，習慣上規定投標必要文件應檢附『保障勞工權益切結書』及『就業服務許可證』，已限制許多勞動合作社參與投標競爭權利，因此建請行政院公共工程委員會將『廠商為合作社、提供勞務者為社員且非屬雇傭關係時，機關不得要求簽具保障勞工權益切結書及提供就業服務許可證。』或類似意旨文句，列入勞務採購契約範本或投標須知範本適當處，並公告各機關週知，以維勞動合作社參與標案權益。」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要不然他的社員非屬雇傭關係時，其實提不出來這兩份文件。工程會的朋友，請說。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "謝謝政委關心這一個議題，有關「保障勞工權益切結書」的部分，本會97年3月4日研商「將廠商無欠繳勞、健保等費用納為勞務採購投標廠商資格條件」會議決議，為加強督促廠商遵守勞動法令以落實保障勞工權益，機關辦理採購，應請廠商於投標時，書面聲明是否已依法為所僱用員工投保勞工保險、就業保險、全民健康保險及提繳勞工退休金，並已依規定繳納各該保險費及勞工退休金，爰擬具旨揭切結書格式，供機關參辦。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "本會97年4月11日函釋及切結書內容係針對各機關辦理有關人力派遣性質之勞務採購案件，建議於招標文件規定廠商於投標時檢附本切結書，以提醒投標廠商切實遵守勞動法令規定，善盡雇主責任，並避免得標後衍生履約爭議。（工程會97年4月11日函）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以承攬是沒有這兩份的？" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "對，且切結書內容係要求投標廠商就「所僱用員工」投保勞工保險、就業保險、全民健康保險及提繳勞工退休金等，所以，如果廠商是合作社，並以僱用員工履約，自適用該切結書切結範圍，倘投標廠商為合作社且以社員履約，非屬該切結書切結範圍。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "為了避免再有誤解，本會將於97年4月11日函加註「合作社於投標時檢附該切結書，履約時以社員履約且無實質僱傭關係，非屬該切結書切結之範圍」" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "另外，有關「就業服務許可證」，涉及就廠商資格訂定限制，機關辦理採購，其投標廠商資格之訂定及需檢附之資格文件，應由招標機關依政府採購法第36條、第37條及「投標廠商資格與特殊或巨額採購認定標準」規定辦理，以確認廠商具備履行契約所必須之能力者為限，不得不當限制競爭。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "倘個案履約事項屬就業服務法許可之就業服務業務，機關要求投標廠商檢附許可登記證明文件，尚屬適法，若個案履約事項非屬就業服務法許可之就業服務業務，機關要求投標廠商檢附許可登記證明文件，屬訂定招標標的無關之基本資格。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "是以，機關要求投標廠商檢附「就業服務許可證」是否違反法規命令，應視個案履約事項審認，尚難通案禁止機關要求投標廠商檢附該許可證。倘投標廠商(包括合作社)對於機關辦理採購，如認為有違反法令，致損害權利或利益者，得依政府採購法第75條規定，於期限內以書面向招標機關提出異議、申訴。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這樣子聽起來是你們覺得「機關不得要求」六字太強，實質上不是在適用範圍時，就明訂「實質上非屬雇傭關係時，也不得在這個要求範圍」即可。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家常常會有兩個誤解，一個是把承攬、派遣混為一談，另外一個是明明是承攬了，但會把雇傭關係跟沒有雇傭關係混為一談，這兩個情況第誤解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們做一個決議，這邊是寫「類似意旨文句」，這個具體的文句是由貴會來擬，要擬在備註或者是附註的地方，我覺得很好，沒有問題的，實際簽上去之前，我想跟合團司的朋友再次確認一下，確保有要提醒的部分。" }, { "speaker": "陳茂春", "speech": "報告一下，剛剛有提到當年（97年）開會的時候，好像也沒有找內政部，所以才會造成今天很多的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有關係，我們就面對問題、解決問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實工程會剛剛講的那一段很好。可以參考剛剛講的逐字稿，我覺得非常好，大家看到的時候，腦裡的誤解是可以澄清的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只是我們勢必要再翻譯成書面文字，書面文字翻譯好之後再跟合團司確認，我們就可以按照本來的流程簽上去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以也是循處長的建議，依這一次「類似意旨文句」的決議來辦理，我們就這樣處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有書面的動議？" }, { "speaker": "胡貝蒂", "speech": "有關於社企高峰會的籌辦，我記得像高鐵或者是飛機票的部分，這個可能要及早進行處理。" }, { "speaker": "胡貝蒂", "speech": "有關於相關部會經費協助分攤多少的部分，剛剛處長也有提到科技部、金管會等等，處長再協調一次，剛剛協調的部分，請各相關部會帶回去，像新進來的朋友，比如內政部、海委會或是科技部等等，我們會請他們一起來共襄盛舉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。如果沒有別的口頭動議，我們準時結束這個會議，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hi, there." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Hi. Thanks so much for doing this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No problem at all." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "I appreciate it. I was just going to say, when we do the interview, I’m actually going to switch off the video, because it makes for better audio, which is all we’re interested in. I will do that. Maybe I’ll do that now, actually." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. I’ll also make a copy of audio locally, if that’s OK with you." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Yeah, do whatever you want, whatever is best. No problem at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "It was nice to see you briefly anyway. I guess the guys at Nesta have filled you in on what this is about. I think you’ve been in touch with Theo about this podcast series. I’m one of the producers." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "We’d love your take, as being our case study, for the digital democracy episode. How it will run is there’ll be an introduction from our presenter from Nesta, who will talk about the topic, give a big overview of the topic and Nesta’s work in that field. Then, he will introduce you as our case study." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "This interview will run as a short, maybe six or seven minutes. I will cut myself out. I won’t be in it. It’ll just be you. I’m sure you’re a pro at this, but if you could give me full answers. If I ask a question, if you could begin your answer with the question, that would be very helpful, because I will be cutting out questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, certainly. I’ll be making a full transcript, though, of the entire conversation, as our radical transparency principle requires, but I will send you the transcript both for easier editing, I’m sure, but also to make sure that if there’s any part that you want to edit, you can edit it also for 10 days before we publish it on the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "That sounds great. Thank you. That sounds good. Thank you very much. If only all my interviewees would do that for me, that would be very nice. [laughs] I’m going to mute my microphone as well while you answer, because it will, again, make for a better quality of line. If the line sounds great, so I might be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The line is good. I will also have a local recorder anyway, so you have a highest quality possible audio file." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Wonderful. Thank you very much, again. That’s far too helpful. The first question for you is could you give us the story of how you went from being an activist to a government minister?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am still an activist while working with -- not for -- the cabinet. I’m at a Lagrange point, a midpoint between the movement and the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why was that back in 2014, there was 22 days of Occupy Parliament called the \"Sunflower Movement.\" That is when the Parliament in Taiwan refused to deliberate substantially a Cross-Strait Service Agreement with Beijing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the MPs on strike, people just occupied the Parliament and did the MPs work for them. That’s the legitimacy theory. It’s a coordinated action by around 20 different NGOs, each deliberating one particular aspect of the trade agreement, from the concept of labor, from environment, and so on. There’s half a million people on the street and many more online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m part of the movement called g0v or G-0-V that supported the communication, the real-time broadcasting logistics, and so on of the Occupy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of the intervention of professional facilitators and fact-based tools, there’s a tool where you can enter your company number, and it shows exactly how the trade agreement affects you, and so on, during the three week of Occupy, it’s almost completely non-violent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We converged day-over-day rather than compared to other Occupy where they diverged day after day. After three weeks, we agreed on five points. Those points were then accepted by the head of the Parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I always say it’s a demonstration, but it’s not a protest. It is a demo of how can we involve half a million people on the street and many more online in a way that can still scale this listening and facilitating experience so that people can eventually agree on common values." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "This must have been an extraordinary time for you, not just professionally, but personally. This sounds like something that dreams are made of, this moment that you were part of. It was revolutionary. It was historical. Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like for you personally?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. I remember being there the first night when people just went there and protested about the swift passing of the legislative procedure. I remember arriving very late at night and with a HSDPA connection. We didn’t have 4G back then. That’s the fastest that I can have and share the bandwidth with the civic media people doing the live streaming there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I encountered this young looking person, a student perhaps. He said he can lend me his laptop -- a bulky laptop -- and said he entrust that to me so that I can keep sharing the connection over the Ethernet port to the stationary media that the civic media is using for live broadcasting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was wondering why would someone who looked so young part with their laptop so easily and give me his administrator password. It turns out he is going to climb over the walls of the Parliament, and the laptop is going to be a burden literally. They broke into the Parliament. There’s very few police there. Very few people expected that will happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was there the first night, and our colleagues in g0v movement actually captured the entire breaking and entering so that the very next morning when the mainstream media portrayed students as having a heavy fight, or being violent, or whatever, we have the footage on YouTube to prove that actually, that was not the case." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That was when YouTube live streaming was first introduced. People were very interested in all those debate stations. I went cross-pollinating from station to station, and whenever there’s rumors, there’s disinformation that spreads on the streets, we make that first, that there is an intranet connection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I personally brought very long Ethernet cables to connect the occupied Parliament with the people on the street, so that people passing by can see with their own eyes what is this like in the occupied Parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a stenographer -- people who type very fast -- inside the parliament, who type everything they hear so that random passersby can see what is really being deliberated. Truth, for once, spreads faster than rumors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this reflective space, people actually concentrated on the trade agreement itself, rather than escalating into violence or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Personally for me, it is a radically transparent, and inclusive, and participatory moment. At the end of that year, after the mayoral election, all the mayors who supported Occupy get elected, sometimes without preparing inauguration speech. All the mayors that did not support the Occupy failed their mayoral election." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, there’s a new political will and political awareness in Taiwan that open government, it is not just something to be achieved. It is actually the baseline." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "You’re using words like inclusive and participatory, which are not words that I associate with government, certainly not in this country. How is Taiwan getting this so right, especially when you look at the surge in populism and nationalism in Europe, and in the UK, in America?" }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "It just seems to me that you’re talking in a way, it’s like the future. I just can’t even imagine politicians or anyone in our government talking like you do. What’s so different there? Can you describe it for us, and why this is flourishing?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why is Taiwan different from other more traditionally representative democratic countries when it comes to open government? That’s a great question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, we are in the future. We’re exactly eight hours in the future. Aside from that, Taiwan is a really new democracy. I still remember the martial law. I’m 37 years old now. Back when I was five years old, six years old, Taiwan was still under martial law, and there was very limited freedom of speech, of assembly, of press." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just got the freedom of the civil society in the late ’80s. Our first presidential election was in 1996, which coincides with the World Web, its popularity. I remember partaking the first presidential election campaigns, helping one of the candidates and already using the World Web, what we would now call social media." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For Taiwan, Internet and democracy, these are not two things. It’s the same thing and literally happened in the same decade. Because of that, there’s less republican tradition, or representative tradition, or any other tradition of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For us, direct democracy, deliberative democracy, liquid democracy, all sorts of democracy all just happened around the turn of the century. It’s easier for us to mix and match those techniques together, because there’s less legacy to support, so to speak. We see a very similar dynamic in even newer countries like Estonia." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "It’s fascinating. What do you see as the biggest threat to democracy then in the Internet age?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The biggest threat to democracy in the Internet age is that people don’t realize that the Internet, we have a different set of normativity. The sense is that in regular space, before the cyber space, people relied on text-based normativity, that is to say, legal code around which their social norms is build." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The legal code codifies what the society thinks is normal, but it also affects what the society thinks is normal. In cyberspace, it’s governed by a different set of normativity. We call it code-based normativity. Code -- that is to say, algorithm manifestation -- determines what is possible, what is not possible, what is opaque, what is transparent, what is laborious, what is automated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are like physical laws in the sense that you can’t break them. You can create new systems out of code and algorithms, but within the confine of a code and algorithm, they act like physical law. They are legal by design, so to speak. There is no way to break them once you’re in that system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of this, cyberspace casts its shadow on the human imagination of what is possible and what is not, what is easy and what is not. We see a lot of perceived polarization. We see a lot of perceived miscommunications on the Internet, simply because when people see part of the message being automatically transferred." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have junk mail and spam mail. Last entry, we now have disinformation campaigns, computational propaganda, and things like that. People just assume that it is something of a normal social, but actually, it’s not. It’s something that’s generated by machine learning and by algorithms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Until everybody has the awareness that most of these are machine-generated, are tailored to our preferences in a way that is bereft of algorithmic sovereignty, meaning that people cannot actually trust the message before their eyes until they actually understand and control the rules which those code are being written." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, people are going to live in what we call a filter bubble or whatever other perceived image of polarization, or other different extremist views, while in fact, they have a lot in common, in feelings and in perception with their neighbors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Internet, with this current generation of social media, generates a different perception. That in turn affects people’s subjective realities in terms of loneliness, filter bubble, and polarization." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "That leads quite neatly onto my next question, which is about virtual reality, and whether you see that virtual reality actually being something that can help the democratic process, or is it something that would hinder it, in your view?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The virtual reality relationship with the democratic process is something that I think is a very interesting research question for me personally. The first few users of virtual reality, for me, are all in shared reality, meaning that I share it with other people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I remember looking at Earth from the International Space Station. That’s my first exposure to virtual reality. I remember startling words like sustainability, where it’s planning for seventh generation, where it’s integrating the triple bottom line suddenly makes so much sense when you see Earth as one tangible object in front of you when you’re floating in space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a very enlightening experience for me personally, but it’s not just me. Everybody who went to the space and went back kind of becomes a better person. There’s a term for that. It’s the overview effect. Having an overview of what the current world is like is going to be a very helpful use of virtual reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, I shared with many primary schoolers a consultation meeting, where I shaped my avatar to be the same height as they are. We together entered into a shared world where we can talk about things common to them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t perceive me as somebody who are double their height, but rather are with their height. That makes integration and inclusion easier. Together, we can also, for example, look at a new construction from the perception of an endangered animal, for example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That, again, is a great use of virtual reality to generate sympathy. All of it is because the social objects we’re looking in virtual reality are not virtual. They are, in fact, shared reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I became the digital minister, I wrote a short poem two years ago to explain this view. Very quickly, it goes like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see internet of things, let’s make it an internet of beings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And whenever we hear that \"the singularity is near\", let us always keep in mind and remember that the Plurality is here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we keep plurality in mind, then virtual reality is going to become a shared reality, and therefore help the democratic process." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "That’s amazing. Thank you for reading that. I think you’re right. Too many people who don’t really understand this world are far too quick to jump at this idea that it’s all robots, and unfeeling, and no, like you say, no sympathy, no empathy, no human side." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Something as simple as making your avatar the same size as the kids that you’re talking to, such a simple idea. That really sums it all up, doesn’t it, really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Beautiful example. I want to ask you about vTaiwan now, please. If you could tell us what it is and what successes it’s had. Are we writing describing it as we’ve said, it’s a new multi-stakeholder consultation process, if that is correct. Otherwise, could you tell us what it is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is correct but it starts late 2014, it’s not exactly new now. It’s been going on for four years. I would say it’s an ongoing and online and offline consultation process. The three distinguishing feature is that..." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Sorry, Audrey. Can I stop you and ask you to start again with, \"vTaiwan is...?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Thank you. That’d be great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "vTaiwan is an ongoing -- four years now -- online, offline consultation process, which brings together the government ministries, representatives, scholars, experts, business leaders, civil society organizations, and citizens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Its three distinguishing feature is that first, agenda setting is done by a recursive public, meaning that people who meet every Wednesday at the Social Innovation Lab, Taiwan, in Taipei in dinner, determines the process and the entire project together. Whomever shows up is the right people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a open space technology recursively applied to a consultation process. That’s the first distinguishing feature." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second one is that it’s been very successful in generating more consultative processes. The Taiwan fintech sandbox, the Taiwan platform economy sandbox, the Taiwan automated driving sandbox, all these enabling laws are generated by the vTaiwan process as a way for each ministry to go on and generate more multi-stakeholder consultative processes. It’s generative in a sense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third thing that distinguishes, that it is entirely free and open-source. It runs on a software stack that is entirely can be replicated and it could be owned by any people who deploy it. It is not colonial in nature." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can mix and match different aspects of vTaiwan and design their own consultation process based on the very simple idea that we check with each other on the facts first, and move on to feelings. After getting people’s feelings resonating with each other, then the best ideas are the one that care of most people’s feelings, and finally move to ratification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This very simple fact, feeling, idea decision process informs the 30 or so cases that vTaiwan has processed. Most of them -- more than 80 percent of them -- has led to decisive government action or passing of new laws." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "That is fascinating. Could you give us one example, please, if possible?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Certainly. The most often quoted example is when Uber first entered Taiwan, it’s legal. It uses rental cars and people with professional driver’s license, but shortly thereafter, they switched to use just normal cars and with people without professional driver’s license and, therefore, no insurance. That creates a social issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of polarized discussion over the social web, we engaged with a Seattle startup called Pol.is to design an AI-moderated conversation space that’s literally designed as the Uber case is being deliberated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We tweaked the interface a lot, but the end goal is to get all the Uber passengers, Uber drivers, taxi drivers, union people, and so on, onto this scalable listening platform so people can resonate with each other’s feelings without taking away, or without any room for personal attacks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By the end of the three-week feeling checking period, people actually converged on a set of about six or seven very firm feelings that it’s shared by everybody." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Regardless of which side or which ideology the mainstream media portrays them on, actually, people have a strong consensus about the registration, about the insurance, about the protection of passengers and drivers, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We held a face-to-face, multi-stakeholder consultation live streamed and using only the ones that are generated by this process as the agenda, and to get Uber, and the union, and the taxi companies, and so on to commit themselves to this new norm set by the AI-moderated conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That became the way which Uber became legal in Taiwan. Now, you can call taxis using the Uber app. There’s also taxi apps being developed that include the rating system, the surge pricing system, as well as other data sharing deals. All of them, of course, are operated by drivers with professional license and insurance." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Fantastic. Thank you for talking me through that. That’s brilliant. I have a question which I should have asked you when you were telling me the story of what happened back in 2014 in the government. It was just about forking. I meant to ask you this." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Would you mind telling me what it means forking the government, what that expression means, and put it into the context of what happened? If you can just start your answer with, \"Forking the government is...\" if that’s OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Forking the government is the call to action of the g0v movement. The g0v movement is spelled G-0-V. All the public services and websites in Taiwan that is in the public sector ends with gov.tw. I’m sure it’s the same in many other countries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, our legislation is ly.gov.tw, our executive and our administration is ey.gov.tw, and so on and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "G0v is this very simple idea of a domain name, g0v.tw that says, instead of just protesting or shouting about what the government doesn’t do well, why don’t we create exactly the same website as the government website, but changing the O to a 0 so that people don’t have to google to find us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can just go to whatever government website, change a O to a 0, and get into the shadow government. That is a very powerful idea that has since been picked up in other places. If you go to budget.g0v.it, you go to the Italy g0v visualization of budgets." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Indeed, budget.g0v.tw, which is the inaugural g0v project back in 2012, visualizes the national budget in a way that enable people to talk around specific budget items as a public forum. Because of that, people don’t have to describe the government as an opaque entity. People can look at the budget year-over-year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The beauty of the fork is that we keep what’s already there. We just take it to a different direction. We keep the facts, the data, but we interpret it with visualizations, with interactive forums, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The beauty is that because g0v projects are released under open source and Creative Commons, most of which actually relinquish all copyright altogether. By the next procurement cycle, if the government thinks it’s a good idea, then the fork is merged back into the government website. The g0v website becomes the gov website." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That applies to the budget visualization, which became the participatory budget platform for Taipei City in 2015, and is adopted by six or so municipalities around 2017. Finally, as of this year, it’s merged entirely into the join.gov.tw platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the 1,300 ministerial projects can be seen in its KPI, in its mostly spendings, in its procurements, and so on. Whenever anyone types a question publicly, the career public service actually answers also publicly, you don’t have to ask through the freedom of information channels, or your councilors, or whatever. People can just have a chat with the public service around specific budget items." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That begins as a fork, it’s now fully merged back." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. My final question, because I know I’m nearly up to my half an hour." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "You are in the government. You’re a minister without portfolio. Are there people in the government who genuinely...I have this idea of a generation of people who genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "I just know that if it was the UK government, there’d be people there who’d just be listening to you, and they wouldn’t literally understand the language, what you’re saying, in terms of the technical speak and the idea of just the way you see the world." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Through your experience in the work that you’ve done, what is like on a personal, day-to-day level? Do you find that you come up against people saying, \"I don’t know what you mean. I don’t understand what you’re saying,\" or do people really get what you’re talking about?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m well versed, also, in other cultures, as well. I can easily switch to talk from a legal normativity or from a cultural normativity. It’s just like different languages for me. No, I don’t find any difficulty, because I don’t have to talk tech. I can talk about, for example, the UK has the fintech sandbox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s innovators identifying the current shortcomings of the law and saying, \"I want to operate under a new regulation set. If you give me one year to experiment using the new regulation set that I propose, then I can show the entire society that this is actually for financial inclusion and is for the common good.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, the pioneered this idea. We just took this idea and apply it to everything. People can, for example, apply for a one-year test of autonomous driving and things like that. The most important thing here is that it is entirely a social innovation, meaning that we don’t introduce technology for technology’s sake." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Rather through office hours, every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, anyone, even rough sleepers, social workers who work with them can just come to my office and talk to me, provided that they agree for the transcript to be published to the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I tour around Taiwan every other Tuesday or so and speak to the indigenous people, rural people, people who are in the far away islands. Because in Taiwan, broadband is a human right, if you don’t have 10 megabits per second, it’s my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of that, I can talk with these people in their natural environment, but still have the 12 ministries in Taipei listening and hearing what we are having to say, and seeing the local people through telepresence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When the local people raise their issues, the people in Taipei across different ministries, they brainstorm and co-create solutions, and everything is radically transparent. This gives the previously anonymous public servants a better deal." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, if they do something right, something great, their minister get all the credit. If they get something wrong, the minister always blames them. Now, it’s the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they come up with an innovation, the people knows about it immediately and they thank the public service. Journalists actually go and check who introduced this great idea. If it doesn’t work, the social entrepreneurs can take it to the sandbox, or if it really fails spectacularly, it’s only Audrey doing this anyway, so I can absorb all the blame." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this kind of environment, I find the public service not just understanding the core ideas of a horizontal, cross-silo working philosophy, but actually very eager to innovate, because they know they will reduce their work, and reduce their risk, and also share the credit." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Thank you, Audrey. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I’ve got plenty to be getting on with. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "I was going to say have a great day, but it’s evening, so have a wonderful evening. Thanks so much for talking to us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, have a good localtime, as well, we say around here." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Is that what you say? I like it. I’m going to use that. Thanks. [laughs] Take care now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Bye." }, { "speaker": "Ruth Barnes", "speech": "Bye." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Nice to meet you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very nice meeting you. Fang has yet to arrive?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yes. He got delayed somehow, I guess." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "In the end, you and I can meet, and then he can join. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. This is the co-working space?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yeah, it is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure she’ll love it. This looks pretty. Well-decorated." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Oh, will she. [laughs] It’s very hipster. It’s not a normal co-working space. It’s for artists and so forth. It’s cute." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is cute. I’ll just grab some coffee. This is our administration building. As you can see, it’s also kind of hipster." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You get business origami. You get any number of Post-it Notes." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s shaped very much like a co-working space, but not a artsy one. We have another office that’s the more artsy one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s get started because I have maybe an hour or so." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Sounds good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First, thank you for making the time." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "No. Thank you for making the time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can talk about a million subjects, but I’m most interested in QV." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve read the paper. I’ve talked with quite a few people interested in implementing the idea, from the social financing side, as well as from the public donation side, as well as from the extracting promise out of mayors promising to not do something within their term side and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just for the sake of benefit of the readers and viewers of this recorded video, would you like to outline some of the main ideas and topics that you are personally now working on or focused? Then we can..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Around quadratic voting, the thing that we are most interested in is first of all, the idea of having a democratic system that allows minorities to protect themselves rather than to have bureaucrats or judges or something like that be in charge of protecting minorities..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "By giving every citizen an equal budget of what we call voice credits that they can allocate to support or oppose issues and candidates that they most strongly favor or oppose, but not allowing people to just be extremists and dominate an issue." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It would become increasingly expensive to have more influence on an issue the more influence that you have. That’s the quadratic nature." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "This can be applied to voting situations. It can be applied by politicians to poll to figure out positions that might form a legitimate basis for legitimate public decision-making. It can also be used for funding." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "If you want to fund local public goods, Vitalik Buterin and I worked on a variant of this idea where rather than it just being a way of voting, you would actually have public matching funds that could be given to different local projects or even, say, to media." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Individuals could make contributions. The amount that would be received by, say, the charitable cause or the candidate or whatever would be the sum of the square...Come. No, I’m just checking that she’s not here. Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Would be the sum of the square root, all squared. What that would mean is that smaller contributions would receive more matching funds from the public. Causes that had received contributions from more people would also receive more matching funds." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It’s a way of overcoming the usual free-rider problem, where when you have public projects, people don’t want to individually contribute to them because they would only do it if other people would go along with them. I’ve been working on all of those." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "We’ve been thinking about applications for everything from funding news media, because it’s not usually well-funded, just through really private means. On the other hand, you don’t really want the government funding it because it could control the media and undermine democracy. Everything from that to making decisions in local councils." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "At the same time, we’ve also been working on these identity solutions that would be necessary to support a system like that. It requires a notion of different voters. If you don’t want that to all be done by some central government authority approving people to participate, we’ve been working on identity solutions as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. Thank you for the summary. Who came up with the moniker \"liberal radicalism,\" if I may ask?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Me and Zoë Hitzig." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s excellent." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "[laughs] Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Say I’m a person interested in participating in crowdfunding you just mentioned. I’m a regular funding person on Patreon. Now Kickstarter has introduced the new Drip. I’m sure that you’re aware of many other such platforms." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, Kickstarter is a B Corp, supposedly. They drive their social purpose and so on, but nowadays we’re also seeing, because of technologies out there now, quite a few what we call platform cooperatives. With any other name, people are basically putting up their own crowdfunding, distributing schemes up on open collectives and other open co-op movements." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Are you aware of any of these adopting QV? From a end user perspective, I think that’s probably what makes the most sense to have the first experience in." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "There’s a donation platform on Ethereum called WeTrust that actually put $100,000 or 500 ETH behind matching funds for liberal radicalism, for donations to charity. There’s also a lot of different mostly Ethereum-based platforms that have been using quadratic voting for various governance things." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Everything from regulating the process of electing people to do block-making within a permissioned system that is used for doing import-export regulatory compliance to commercial real estate developments that are tokenizing real estate and that are governing some of the choices about how to invest the community resources using this mechanism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "There’s a wide range of different projects like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Starting this month, if you go to spring.wetrust.io, you can actually have the first experience of QV." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly. You found it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. There’s the usual suspects such the MIRI and the SENS Research." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yes. Hold on one second." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Fang’s arrived." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Is Fang here? Hi, Fang." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Hi." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Hi, how are you doing?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "No worries. Audrey’s on the line, so we should just jump in because she is being recorded. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Here, you can come in and you close the door. You have to actually do this in order to get it to stay closed." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Sorry, Glen." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Now it’s me and Fang here together." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "I’m sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hi, hello. No problem." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "...before I leave, so sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just fine. Take your time. Grab something. This is a very artsy, hipster place that we’re shown here." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It is a very hipster co-working space, isn’t it? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "I like the exits." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was just looking at this. Fang, just for context, I’m looking through this crowdfunding website that is currently applying Glen’s idea of what we called QV or quadratic voting. Can you see my screen?" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is basically a matching donations scheme, now through Giving Tuesday. For this month, they’re matching based on the liberal radicalism idea, which Glen just explained kindly for our viewers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In short, it basically says if you have a lot of money or if you can mobilize a lot of people to donate a small amount of money each, it’s going to be roughly the same by taking the square roots of each donation and matching them accordingly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s the usual suspects -- MIRI, SENS, the Ubuntu Foundation -- joining this crowdfunding experiment. There’s also African Advocacy Network, as well Surgeons of Hope, the more traditional charities, and, of course, some people in between like Code for America, which I’m not surprised at all as being listed here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I was just about to ask, Glen, how do you think about the synergy between the different projects here?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the underlying assumption in the QV idea is that the projects themselves compete somewhat for resources, so that the, I wouldn’t say winner-takes-all, but the most well-known charities, or most well-known causes, or most well-known participatory budget items or whatever, dominates the resource in a network effect, increasing-returns fashion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "QV is designed to mitigate that. Taking this very concrete example of quite a few people funding the Lupus Foundation, and at the moment, not much at all at the African Advocacy Network, how does it help?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "One property that QV absolutely does have is that, in this particular formula, the more people that are contributing to something, the more the effect of a marginal dollar you contribute on that particular one." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "On the other hand, unlike purely majoritarian schemes, it’s not like that’s predetermined. It’s not like, \"Oh, you have to just vote for one thing.\"" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Instead, the notion is, you could give a little bit of funding to some things, more funding to others, etc. The notion is that it should allow for an optimal balance between you not wanting things to bee too de-fragmented because people feel they can free-ride on the things that already have momentum." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "On the other hand, things being too concentrated because the democratic process just leads to whatever the majority prefers to win." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Does it require a overview effect of the current budget situation, or do you think that it can also work in an uncoordinated fashion where people just make individual choices?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I think you do need to have probably some view of what the current funding levels are, and you actually saw that on that site. They make it pretty transparent what the current funding levels are. That’s helpful for the users." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It requires a period of time, and just like participatory budgeting, actually, but instead of .voting, you have .statgrow or shrink, based on how many dots that you spent on a particular item." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have you actually visualized this, because when I see the Spring WeTrust, I don’t see any visualization of the shrinking dots, if you know what I mean." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I haven’t come up with a really compelling visualization of it, but in some of the articles online, I believe there’s one where they show this cool diagram which shows, I don’t know if you saw this one, but they show little blocks stacked on top of each other by their height, and then their width..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s very, very cute." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Anything with the same height will show the same total amount is counted, but then the volume of them shows how much actually comes from the contributions relative to how much comes from the matching." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "The matching is the right-hand side, and the block’s width is how much comes form the private contributions, so I thought that was a smart visualization of it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a great visualization. Just think that you have any number of square votes, really. [laughs] You can buy areas, but the areas is going to count toward their height. I think that’s a beautiful thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, that applies to circles, also, right?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t have to be squares." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Another thing you can apply it to is a funnel. Imagine you have a triangle, and you pour your liquid into the triangle. How high it gets determines how much value that it gets. Do you see what I mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, of course. It ties very well with the idea of the experiment actually that’s going on because it’s a spring. You can spring that goes into a funnel and it’s all very water, common spaced liquid solutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. I wish people watching this video will volunteer some visualizations because we have real data now. The Spring WeTrust is on the chain, right? It’s on Ethereum." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It is. It’s on the Ethereum chain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can take the public chain data and do cool amazing visualizations." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All right. Fang, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to our viewers? [laughs] We can chat more freely I’m sure afterwards, but it’s just I have maybe only 40 minutes after this, so we can maybe switch from topic to topic." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Sure. [laughs] My name is Fang, and I’m a Service Design/Consultant at PDIS. One of Audrey’s agenda is open government, so I help facilitate the mechanism which is called Participation Officers Network." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "It’s a network of 70 civil servants across 34 ministries. We hope to use that mechanism to cut across the governmental silos and help people to work towards different issues more openly and creatively, not just within the circle but also onto the wider stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It sounds a little bit like what at Microsoft they call the office of the chief technology officer. It’s one office that’s allowed to cut across everything and facilitates collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s radical horizontalism for you. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fang helped build this network of people, and each ministry can have a team of people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, we’re still using old school approval voting to pick, every month, which topic or priority to work on, and because they come from e-petition, you can also think of it as a kind of approval voting. At any time, anyone can decide to countersign a petition to raise their priority about which that we’d take an interest in looking at." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment in Taiwan, there’s 23 million people. E-petition network online is being used by 5 million people, so one-quarter of the population, which is not too bad. People just countersign each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have some machine recommendation algorithm, like Netflix or Amazon, that recommends similar interested petitions. It’s also of course for budgeting visualization, regulation pre-announcement, participatory budgeting on a city level, so it’s an all-in-one participation platform." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The way it works is that whenever there’s anything that receives 5,000 signatures over a two months period gets a VU from all the all participation officers. They can explain and defend whether it needs a cross-ministerial collaboration. We do a approval voting anonymously on it and then we select two cases every month to collaborate on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each and every one that reach the 5,000 people threshold automatically gets a binding power to basically be interviewed, be in talk with by the stakeholders, and publish the full transcript of the conversation, and get a point-by-point response within two months from the respective ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one of the more successful direct democracy-ish experiments that we do. It’s been working pretty well, because people, essentially, when they’re petitioning, have unlimited number of votes. They are somewhat authenticated through SMS. It’s difficult to get 5,000 SMS numbers, as you know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the system that we’re currently working on. Just as you were talking about this crowdfunding idea, I was just wondering how QV or a similar design can help. It seems like when It’s just agenda setting or priority setting, and it’s not allocation of resources, it’s kind of OK to use approval voting, no?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I think approval voting is better than some systems, but I would prefer a QV-based system. What I’d like people to be able to express is the same thing they, in other cases, express through a protest. When you get out and protest, it’s a more costly action than just signing a petition, but it shows that something’s very important to you." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Not everyone likes to protest. Not everyone likes to be out in public, so I’d like a more private way for people to do that." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "If every citizen had a budget of credits, and they could say, \"This issue is incredibly important to me,\" maybe, only you would need 300 of things like that. You would need 10,000, or 15,000, if people just say, \"Well, I’m interested, but I don’t really care.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, for example, at any given moment, the Join platform may have 100 petitions going on. Truth is that maybe, after two months, only five of them will get the 5,000 people threshold. That’s the reality we’re now facing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What you’re proposing, essentially, is that if you can get any number, like 500 people, feeling that this is really important -- for some definition of really important -- so much so that they’re willing to forsake their capability of petitioning for that particular model, any particular issue, any other issue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They dedicate their petition resource, so to speak, on this issue, then it only takes a square root of our current threshold to basically pin it into our \"Must Respond\" board. The number is going to be very low. It’s going to be 70 per people, basically." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yeah, and conversely, like you said, you have these recommendation things. There might be some people who just are having fun, and on the website, they click on one, and then they follow the recommendation. They click the other, and they don’t even think anything about it, right?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Those things you might want to require 10,000 or 15,000 such signatures in order to respond, because they’re not really driven by passion, they’re driven -- depth of importance -- they’re just driven by entertainment. You know what I mean? You want to have some way of measuring that. The idea is that quadratic voting could help you do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From an interface or experience design perspective, because we have a professional experienced designer here, how would that even work? Medium says if you are just passing by, you just click on claps, and it’s one each." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you feel really strongly, you can keep holding that clap button, and it will grow in number. Would you recommend some interface like that, or do you have something else in mind?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I quite enjoy that Medium interface. I think it’s pretty good. I think it would be better to have some sort of a token, if you can build the infrastructure that necessary for that. Obviously, that requires a more persistent identity than just an SMS code. That’s the disadvantage of it." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I think if you can do that, then people don’t have to spend so much time holding down the clap, you can just reveal it through how they spend the scarce resource." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It would be like a slider or something. Yes? Fang was saying something." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "You just raised a very important point. How can we distinguish if the vote is really valuable? Am I passionate about that, or am I just doing this for entertaining? The question is, how can we tell? What are criteria that we can set up to evaluate that?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I can show you what it looks like for Quadratic Voting. It might help you see it. I can give you a nice user interface. Let me see whether it’s running." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s do the screen share thing." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I just need to get my browser, I’m using Brave. Here we go." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Hmm, let me find the right addresses. It’s going to take me a little while to get the website up, because I need to find it. Can you grab my phone from there?" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I don’t have the address saved on right here. Sorry. The advantage of Brave is that it doesn’t remember everything that you’ve ever done, but the disadvantage of Brave is that it doesn’t remember everything that you’ve ever done." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK. It’s more human. It proves that we’re not all exocortexes." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "OK, there we go, and now I’m in a screen share." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There we go." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Did you get it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, yes. Ah, that screen." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "You have 100 credits left, and here are various referenda, which you could vote in favor of or against. An immediate tax cut for wealthy individuals and corporations.-- let’s say we’re opposed to that. We put one credit on that." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Background requirements for all gun purchases. Let’s say we’re in favor of that, but we’re actually strongly in favor, so we want to put more than one vote on t. You see, my votes are going down faster and faster, as I put more and more votes on it? You see what I mean? Whereas if I just put one vote on that it just goes very quickly." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "This measures how much you care about it, by making it increasingly expensive to have more votes, so that you go buy votes just up to the point where you care enough. Then that will be proportional of the number of votes that you’ve already bought." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Sure, in regards to those..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "You can touch the screen." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "Who are those people who set up the statements?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "In this case, this was a poll that we did for a political candidate in the United States, but in general, it doesn’t have to be that. It could be actually citizens proposing these things. Then once they cross the 5,000-vote threshold, they could be allowed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fang, do you have any thoughts about how applicable, or where, it could be applicable in our process? I’m very eager to prototype it." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "I think this is a very good idea. I think this also reflect to our conversation earlier last week. We talk about when you propose certain things, the stage before it is noticing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Raising awareness." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "When you want to propose something, it depends on you’re allocation of attention. Your allocation of attention, based on the information you receiving and also, the people you interact with. What if your echo chamber is limited? It prevent you from seeing the people’s view from other sides, even within the same topic." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "I see this as a very dangerous move towards proposal. What I would like to talk a little bit more is a step before. Like, how can we make sure that we got..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "...a democratic discourse..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Sorry, it shut down. I don’t know what happened." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "What I was going to say is the voting mechanism itself can help shape the incentives, people out to get information, under Quadratic Voting, having very extreme opinions is very expensive to do. Having more moderate opinions is cheaper." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Unlike in much standard voting, if you take somebody who you really disagree with, and you cause them to disagree a little bit less, even if you don’t completely change their mind, that still makes a difference in political outcomes." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "That creates an incentive for people to talk to more diverse sets of people, rather than just the people who they could have a chance to get to truly agree with them. You see what I mean?" }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "When you say that it’s expensive..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "The cost of the votes goes up the more votes that you get, in terms of the units of the credits that I was just showing. I don’t think that the voting mechanism itself can solve all these problems. Of course, education is hugely important and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I do think that the voting mechanism can help create an environment where the incentives are aligned with that. It can actually be pretty powerful, because if you think about it, the founders of the American Republic, they didn’t want a two-party system." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "They created a set of incentives that created a two-party system, in spite of themselves. Once you have plurality vote, one first-past-the-post, it creates a two-party system. I think that some of these incentives can filter back into the way that the politics is organized." }, { "speaker": "Fang-Jui Chang", "speech": "The process can be part of the noticing as well." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "That’s also true. That’s a very good point, which is that actually, one thing that we found when we used this survey with people, is that because they have a constraint, and they have to make these trade-offs, we often get comments from people that they learned a lot about their own preferences." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "They didn’t realize that they cared so much more about this thing than the other thing until they had to actually make the trade-off between them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just to follow up on that, very quickly, because when you talk about trade-offs, the interface you just showed has upvotes and downvotes that cancel each other out. The crowdfunding experiments this spring is entirely up-vote only." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It carries no notion of compensation. Are there tangible differences in those mathematics and also in psychology, when you design things in an upvote-downvote kind of way, versus an upvote-only way?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Absolutely. There’s complicated trade-offs between those. On the one hand, if you have downvotes, you have the possibility of censorship. That may not be desirable. I think that that’s a problem." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It also can be a little bit more complicated for people. Without downvotes, if you have things that are genuinely harmful, for example, a petition that might be hate speech, or directed, targeted against some group in the population -- it’s actually quite important that you allow downvotes on that as well, in order to try to limit the possibility of having potentially hateful perspectives." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like signal blockers." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that makes a lot of sense." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "In some politics, for example -- this doesn’t happen, I don’t think, in the Taiwanese system -- in the United States, there’s often something that happens where a politician that’s very not popular will do well, not because they’re popular, but just because people are afraid of the other alternative. If you could vote negatively on the other alternative, that issue wouldn’t show up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see. That’s a powerful argument right there. I’d like to show you the real interface of petitioning that we are talking about, because I think that will help massively. That’s something that Fang-Jui can carry on in the conversation afterwards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is machine translated, but very quickly, just to give you an idea, for example, there is someone who is Mary X, who we know the SMS number, but we don’t reveal it. They don’t have to be under a real name. They can be a pseudonym." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s quite like Ethereum voting in this sense. They can choose a nickname, basically, but that’s consistent over time as an identity. It’s not mapped into a real world identity, only that we know there’s an SMS number behind it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then they proposed to amend the provision of our public service leave rules. At the moment of petition, it was at least half a day for each vacation. They wanted to change into by hour, which by the way, takes effect this week. I took an hour off yesterday." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "So, they succeeded?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, right. It’s a successful petition. As you can see, there’s a timer that says two months. Within the timer, there has be 5,000 signatures, this check passed, and the response is done. There’s agency response in each and every step." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can see the supporting argument of each person participating. Of course, nobody has the time to read through the 5,000 people’s commentaries. That used to be Fang-Jui’s largest headache, reading through those 5,000 people’s commentary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sometimes, people just copy and paste whatever, and mobilize them to countersign the petition. Sometimes, people just write a lot that has no relationship whatsoever with the petition." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Do you have some text analysis that can help you process that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Instead of text analysis, we just did crowdsourcing. This is the actual interface now that saves Fang-Jui a lot of time. Basically, we have two columns underneath every petition that people can post their supporting arguments on the left-hand column, and the not exactly counter, but other arguments, on the right-hand column." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we are now doing is something that is out of the playbook out of Better Reykjavik. I don’t know whether you know the Icelandic experiment from the Better Party. The Better Reykjavik has the same design." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We took a page by not actually showing the bars in a proportional to their number of comments, because that only encourage spam, and nothing good happens. You can see there’s 46 supporting arguments and 11 counterarguments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then each one can receive any number of upvotes and downvotes. Of course, there’s a flag button for truly hate speech stuff. Otherwise, we just sort. We discovered very early on, of course, exactly as you mentioned." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Although it takes the troll away, because they cannot really reply to anything. There’s no reply button, so there’s no incentive to attack people. Still, people just casually use downvotes to censor the good arguments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We changed the rule now, that we take the absolute number of either the upvotes or downvotes. This one, having more downvotes, actually, makes it show on the top." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "That’s interesting. I think this is another area where something like quadratic voting could be interesting, because it could make it costly to just censor. On the other hand, it could allow you to flag borderline hate speech. You know what I mean? That you don’t have time to actually investigate and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I think that’s another potentially interesting thing. In principle, you could even unify the two systems together, and say that both the signatures of the petitions and the up and down votes for the arguments could be part of a unified system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like you can cost some credit to downvote something slightly." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or you can cost some credit to add a supporting argument. It’s the credit pool everybody receive anew every month. Then it’s used basically just to sort the signals, not the substantial deliberation which will happen afterward, according to Fang’s road map." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly. That’s why we call them voice credits, is we think voting is a voice argument, or a sort of voice. All these things are sorts of voice. We’d like to have a token that can represent a currency for that voice, rather than just a currency for buying things." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Why voice credits, instead of voice tokens, or whatever, because credits is more fungible, more square root dividable?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "No, it’s just a different word for the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have an attachment to the name?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "No. In fact, I wouldn’t even call it credits. I would just call it voice. You can just think of it about a unit. In fact, in the book, we used to denote the currency marker, rather than a dollar sign, we use a voice bubble." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, OK, like literally a speech bubble?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like this one, the speech balloon?" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yes, except it has it going to the right-hand side, so it looks a little bit like a Q. That’s quadratic, you know what I mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is very cute. The g0v movement, which I’m a part of, used to have the first version of its logo shaped like this." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yes, exactly. That’s exactly what ours looks like, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, wow. It’s an interesting independent invention. Of course, we eventually shifted to this logo, just because everybody types GQV when looking at this logo. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly, but for us, that’s good. GQV, government by quadratic voting. You should revise the original one, but for a different purpose." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That logo is currently unused. Happy to donate that to your purpose." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the V here, which is the shape of a vote, really actually carries the idea of quadratic voting also. It’s basically a stamp of approval on what your voice matters like. We can make the dot here proportional, exactly as you visualize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So this original logo has some uses. Yay for recycling. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Another very interesting resonance that I wanted to mention is that many of these ideas in the book came from someone named William Vickrey. William Vickrey was a famous economist who won the Nobel Prize." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Most of his ideas were based on the work of another economist named Henry George. Henry George has a very deep relationship to Taiwan. I bet most people in Taiwan don’t know about it. George inspired the ideas of Sun Yat-sen almost as much as Karl Marx inspired the ideas of Lenin." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "There are many elements of policy in Taiwan which actually come from the ideas of Henry George." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, like the least-bad tax." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Exactly. The book is very connected to these ideas of Henry George. Taiwan, Scandinavia, and Singapore are the countries that have been most influenced by those ideas. There’s a natural affinity, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think, aside from single tax, which is less related, there’s also the idea of the citizen’s dividend? I think that’s also a George idea." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "And the secret ballot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And the secret ballot." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "The secret ballot was introduced into the United States by Henry George." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ah, OK, right. I think all of those are very relevant nowadays, because we’re essentially building a code-based normativity around the same ideas. That is, legal by design, instead of by interpretation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In George’s time, it would have to have a lot of post-fact interpretations, negotiations, and whatever to make the system that he designed actually work as intended, instead of as people just randomly interpret it to be." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nowadays, we get to code those algorithms into code. The communication effort, of course, is the most important. That we can find the intuitive interface that makes people get it, so that it becomes the social norm. Then we compile that into code so that..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "That’s the most important thing, is that there’s a notion of social legitimacy around the ideas. That’s the reason why what we’re trying to do with this ideas is not just to go to government bureaucrats, but very much like the approach you’re taking, of trying to be open, trying to communicate with the public, and engage them." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "We believe that ultimately, these ideas will be successful if and only if they are able to become part of people’s widespread notion of legitimacy. If they don’t do that, then they’re imposed by a state, and they’ll be rejected." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "If they do, do that, then anything that the state does will have to follow that. Otherwise, people will be upset. That’s why, rather than taking the usual economist approach of, \"We just talk to the central bank. We just talk to the IMF,\" instead, what we’re trying to do is actually build a social movement." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "We have dozens of clubs all around the world that are forming around these ideas. We’re working with entrepreneurs to experiment with them. We’re talking to folks like you, who can try experimenting with them in participatory democracy." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "We want things that are not just experiments, but experiments that ordinary people can feel, can get a sense for, and can come to incorporate into their notions of what’s fair." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of fighting the system, fighting the existing reality, you’re building a new model that eventually makes the existing model obsolete... which is a Buckminster Fuller quote that Fang-Jui always uses in her slides." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. I am happy to donate to your cause, starting with a GQV domain. [laughs] We can see where it goes from that." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "That sounds great. I hope you can also participate. We’re going to have a conference in Detroit in March. We’ll be in touch with you about that." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "We’d love to have you participating in it, and to find any place where you can experiment and collaborate with us on experimenting with these things. I think that would be very exciting for all of us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome. March is parliamentary inquiry period, but I have a way of appearing through telepresence robots, double robotics, holograms, and the sort. I’m happy to virtually be there. There’s also a very quick prototyping system that we work with the g0v movement called vTaiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, every Wednesday, anyone can come up with an idea of saying, \"Oh, how about let’s do an experiment this way?\" Everybody just tags along. Literally, I think this week’s experiment is the social physics tags from Sandy, from Alex Pentland." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Oh, cool, from Sandy Pentland." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also is a kind of voice credit, voice token, so to speak, because it only measures the volume of your voice. Although voice is not -- strictly speaking -- quadratic, but if you count the distance, it’s just the proximity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How loud people are speaking, and how much attention they’re monopolizing, so to speak. We can distribute it more fairly in a physical space. Even if the physical space has its own attenuation parameters, we can change those parameters. It’s almost like speculative..." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It’s very interesting what you say, because actually, one inspiration for us calling it voice credits is the physical voice. In ancient Sparta, the way that they used to do the vote, was to try to incorporate intensity of preference, they allowed people to shout in favor or shout against." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "It’s a little bit like the clapping thing you were saying. Whichever side shouted louder in total, based on what you could hear, would win the vote." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s inverse square, right? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yeah, sort of, yeah. It has some similarities. Except, of course, it privileges people who happen to be able to shout loud." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, [laughs] and also, I imagine, people who stand in a more strategic position." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yes, that’s true as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the things that we did in virtual reality is attenuation design. Right now, with Skype, of course, everybody here, it’s just two of us. We hear each other equally. One of the experiments we did in virtual reality is to change the position by having people physically walk toward the position they take, and then change the attenuation factors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s virtual reality, you see, you can normalize people’s input voice level to the same level. Then your position determines the sound dissipation. That’s one of the interesting experiments. I can go on and on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I mean is that it’s very easy to prototype new ideas, including QV, through the vTaiwan meet-ups. Even the national petition mechanism, if we can find there’s a beta version, there is a beta website, we can also test this dynamic out on the beta website, anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We tried on the beta site for a year for the visualization of the budget of the entire national budget of more than 1,300, actually, governmental projects. Because the ministries in charge were afraid that if they let everybody literally see the relative budget allocation, how it’s being executed, and all the 1,300 cases, that they will be swamped with comments." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We only tried an initial pilot with 65 national priority projects before we let people see that actually, responding publicly has a lot better properties. For things like social housing, which everybody cares about how well we’re doing, and how exactly, which procurement and spendings went on, people won’t waste each other’s time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They will actually ask quality questions. Once you respond to them fully and in public, everybody just found them through search engines. The respective authorities don’t have to pick up phones, each one not knowing 550 people have asked this particular question before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It saves everybody over time, amortized, but in the beginning, we have to put it on the beta stage to show to the competent authorities in all the different 34 ministries that this is going to be a time saver and not a time-waster for them." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I think that’s a great...Yeah. I would like to do something like that with QV. If you guys have relevant developers, and you can do it on your own, that would be great. We’re happy to consult. Also, there’s now a whole movement." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "We have hundreds of people who are organized around these ideas. Probably thousands, in the Ethereum community and different communities. We’d be happy to find people to collaborate with you, if you need support in trying to build a prototype." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yay, like free energy. That’s great. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Yes. Just let us know, and we’ll connect you to people who would be interested in being engaged." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The last thing I want to show is that this is the official participation platform, including municipalities, the corrective and auditing agency, and of course, the administration of Taiwan is in join.gov.tw." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you change the O to a 0, as is customary with the g0v movement, you get into the shadow government, which is join.g0v.tw. Anyone can just leave their email address there, and join the Slack channel on the g0v movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, I think it’s 4,000 people or so. I’m happy to donate a GQV domain and see what you guys can come up with, and basically prototype the join.gov.tw system with a re-imagination of the QV system. We’ll see how far we can take from that." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "Thanks. That sounds great. We’ll follow up, maybe by email, and find the best way to coordinate collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s time for me, so I will leave you more time. Thank you for this hour-long chat. I’ll just upload everything to YouTube to help spreading the cause." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "I really appreciate it. Thanks so much. If anyone is watching, and is interested in being involved, we’re working on this in Taiwan. The movement’s called Radical Exchange, and you can find me @glenweyl on Twitter. We can be in contact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you so much. Enjoy your time in this wonderful, artsy, hipster co-working space." }, { "speaker": "Glen Weyl", "speech": "[laughs] Take care, Audrey. Bye-bye." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cheers. Bye." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s get started." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Thank you very much for seeing us. This is my first visit here to Taiwan zone. I’m a generalist on my island, as you’d imagine. This is Ed McBride, who’s our Asia editor. He runs all our Asian coverage. And David Rennie, he’s our Beijing bureau chief, and writes our China column. And Jane, who’s been with us, who’s here as our correspondent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "I wondered if I could start by asking a question about digital Taiwan and digital China, and how much China infiltrates digital Taiwan. In other words, how active in the cyber area China is, and whether that’s a threat to Taiwan in digital at all?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Would you like to be more clear about the so-called infiltration? Do you mean on the cybersecurity layer or on disinformation layer?" }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "There are various layers. There’s the cybersecurity layer. It would be good to cover all of them, but I was thinking initially the misinformation, fake news, and stuff like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t use the F-word, but you’re free to." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Both of my parents are journalists, so I never use the F-word to describe their work." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "As journalists ourselves, we’re often accused of it. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m happy to share my views on misinformation. We do distinguish between misinformation and disinformation. In Taiwan, all our government communication has changed to use disinformation to mean something that is both intentional, objectively untrue, and harmful to the public, not just to one specific individual." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has to be intentional, it has to be objectively untrue, and it has to be harmful to the public. If it only satisfies one or two of the three criteria, it may be just misinformation. People are misinformed, or maybe it’s just political satire, which is protected by freedom of speech, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Disinformation is the ones with all the three pillars. [laughs] Misinformation is everything else. Misinformation, to me, is something that affects all the different modes of cyberspace communication." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back in the year 2000 or so, I was involved in the concerted effort to tackle what we called the Spam Wars back then. At that time, people’s email inboxes were flooded with Nigerian princesses offering you lots of deposit or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For a while, people panicked thinking maybe email has stopped being useful. There’s various crazy proposals like we should charge postage stamps for every email. I don’t know..." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "That was a Bill Gates proposal, wasn’t it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You still remember those bad old days? [laughs] It turns out it took us maybe three or four years to solve junk mail. Nowadays, we don’t think about junk mail much anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is only because we in this Internet multistakeholder community made a concerted effort to essentially deploy what we call IA nowadays -- back then, it’s just Bayesian learning -- into people’s flagged suspected junk mail." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We built a pattern database called the Spamhaus. In the Spamhaus Project, people lowered the virality of any sender that matches a certain message so that they won’t reach as much people. Then all the email providers agreed to use a secure protocol to identify the domain of the sender and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Along each step, it lowered the expected reward by a little bit and increased the costs by a little bit until the economic incentive is no longer there to participate in spamming. It took us maybe four or five years, but we eventually got it resolved without hampering the fundamental freedom of people on the Internet to send each other email without prior solicitation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I use this analogy just to say that we’ve seen this before on a different media, of course, on a different configuration of cyberspace, but it is just like that. It is not something new." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is just a reincarnation of the same configuration of expected reward, but now on what we call social media, which makes it easier to share a piece of news on a smaller screen before actually even finishing reading that something on the screen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This configuration is new because around the turn of century, the screen are large screens and it’s easier to read stuff than sharing it. Nowadays it’s the reverse, and so that’s the background." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan, of course, is affected. I wouldn’t say it’s just by the PRC, but also by all the different neighborly authoritarian or going to be more authoritarian jurisdictions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When faced with the same social media disinformation issues, there is a strong incentive, if you start with the authoritarian governance system, to use this as a easy, I’m trying to think of a neutral word, as a easy excuse to shrink the civil society’s space, the basic freedoms of speech, assembly and so on, by essentially passing more draconian cyber control rules around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is, of course, a very attractive proposal to any authoritarian regime. The PRC for example spends a lot of energy on what they call [Mandarin] which I don’t know how to translate that -- to stabilization? I don’t really know. To keep the stabilization of the social media and the Internet there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sure there’s some figure that says they spend more on this kind of internal policing than even some outward endeavors, but even as such, disinformation is not gone from Weibo, or from the social media of the PRC." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They do pass some, one would say, regulations and endeavors that shrinks the civil society space online, but still even after that, I wouldn’t say they completely solved the disinformation problem on their cyber space communities, and so Taiwan is perhaps alone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you look at the CIVICUS Monitor, which tracks the ongoing condition of citizen action, then you see very quickly, at a glance, if you choose...It’s a rank from closed, repressed, obstructed, narrowed and open." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It decreases a few points of score whenever something new development happens. It’s a constantly updated monitor that tracks around the world all the newest developments. If you go to Asia and select \"completely open,\" you only see Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is to say, in the recent years in Taiwan, the civil space is actually expanding. You don’t see any similar news as compared to other jurisdictions that makes the freedom smaller or reduce the freedoms." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "UK..." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Britain and France are narrowed." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "[laughs] The UK is just not scoring top marks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s not, but Ireland is." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Madden Laws a bit?" }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "No, it’s not that law. It’s the..." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "...RIPA, isn’t it? You know the RIPA Act in the UK?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "It’s considered by some as draconian. I think we’re a favorite. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They say France is narrowed, but Sweden is still open, and of course I don’t maintain or have any relationship with this website. [laughs] I just want to say there is a strong polar in our region, in a world actually that extends all the way to Africa to use disinformation as a excuse to shrink the civil society space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In that sense, yes, it is a threat, but it is a threat not because of disinformation itself, but rather because..." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Because of the response to it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...of the response to disinformation threatens to shrink the civil society space." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Would you say that because you think that there is an evidence that misinformation can change public opinion, mislead and distort public opinion?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course we have pretty good numbers that shows exactly how...For example, here is the Cofacts project. Do you read Traditional Chinese?" }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Unfortunately no." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s an English version of it, but anyway, this is a simple bot on the end-to-end encrypted instant message channel, called LINE. LINE is pretty popular in Taiwan, similar to WhatsApp and other places, and it’s end-to-end encrypted, meaning that even the LINE company doesn’t know what’s being transmitted, aside from the stickers, which they do know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, this is a bot that anyone, when receive a piece of misinformation or disinformation, the bot is literally called Is It True or Not? Its English name is Cofacts, as in Collaborative Facts, and this is an entirely social sector, civil society project, not government funded." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by looking at the recent trending rumors, we can very quickly see which rumors are being spread, how quickly in end-to-end channels, and whether they are actually true or not. At the moment, it’s mostly about referendums. It’s pretty clear. Even though, as always, there’s always what food plus what food, and seeing what cancer, or whatever. That never goes away." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In any case, yes, a lot of it is election-related, maybe because we’re in an election week. The good thing about this is there’s a volunteer group just surfacing, these to the public searchable web and also just in junk mail, providing white or blacklist, that clarifies whether this is a rumor that is true or whether it is a rumor that it actually has some evidence in truth in it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here are the evidences and the bot, once it accumulates more than one report, starts on the third attempt, where you share this rumor to them. The bots start giving you back these clarified responses. Yes, first we do know which ones are trending, even in end-to-end encrypted channels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second, we’re taking actions by essentially surfacing them to the public web, and making each rumor a URL, around which the people can have a real discussion on. There’s the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center, for example, that can then look at which one are trending the most and spend their journalistic energy to provide a full account." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Cofact is government?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cofacts, it may look like government, but it’s not. The g0v.tw, the g0v, pronounced gov-zero, is a movement starting six years ago, that consistently look at all government services and find the ones that are either broken, unusable or missing, but systematically build civil society alternatives to it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by changing an O to a zero, you get into the shadow government, so to speak, where the civil society people, the \"civic hackers\" contribute things that they think the government is not doing a perfect job on, and just fill in." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Are you confident that by surfacing rumors, allowing people to have debates about it, and making it clear that things are contested, that that blunts their ability to mislead and distort people? There is a sense, as expression that the lies have got seven leagues before the truth has put his boots on, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree with the sentiment, although I would want to make a distinction. Sometimes, misinformation, or just rumors, they get spread, and they were not that harmful, in either intention or the reach. After a while, think AB testing, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Things will naturally get more escalated, just because in the Darwinian methodology, things that are more sensational or viral automatically gets more people spreading it. It mutates, so to speak. If, before it mutates to a more harmful version, people already surface the less harmful version, then that is actually how vaccines are made." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Vaccines are essentially virus that are not that potent, and that gets into our bodies, so we become immunized over it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think whenever misinformation that has not yet evolved or manufactured into disinformation gets discussed in this public way, then people builds in their mind a vaccination against that particular topic, so that they would not be affected by polarized information, once it evolves into the disinformation stream, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying this solves 100 percent of the cases, I’m saying this is part of media literacy." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Going back to the analogy of spam, it’s one of the things that reduces the virality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s one of the things that reduce the virality, increase the cost. Of course, the Taiwan Fact-Checking Center does something that’s even more. They actually look to all the trending ones that are on the public web. For example, this is a classic one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Taichung Social Bureau reportedly said that in our ID card, our gender field, which used to be female and male, will be canceled and everybody has to pick between LGB and T. OK, you smile, but it’s something that’s trending." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Taiwan Fact-Checking Center did a full journalistic work of checking the source and demonstrating how exactly they did a fact check, and of course, proclaim it as false. That’s their 21st report. The TWFCC is part of the International Fact Checking Network, the IFCN, at the Poynter Institute." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That gives them a kind of special status, because when clarified this way, the signal is taken into account by large multinational platforms, as one of the input sources to their algorithm, to reduce the virality of, not criminal, but misinformed content. Just by producing this report, it has the effect of making this particular item spread to less people’s news feed." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Just on the Cofacts, because fact-checking, that’s a very familiar concept, I get how that works. With the stage before with Cofacts, when they’re identifying something as a rumor, what do you do about something...Obviously, if it says Tsai Ing-wen is actually a communist agent, that’s a rumor." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "What about if it says, \"Such and such a politician gave a racist speech\"? How do you know if that’s a rumor, or whether that’s just your point of view? It’s a political judgment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s your point of view, then here, it says it’s a point of view. That’s actually one of the four categories." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Which one is point of view then?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many. For example, the point of view...There’s a lot of it." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "The dot, dot, dot." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "The dot, dot, dot is point of view." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The dot, dot, dots are the point of view." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know which example, like the fourth nuclear plant is unsafe and is a bad deal, after all. That seems like a point of view to me. It’s a judgment call, essentially, but if it says the fourth nuclear plant requires such and such years to complete, that’s an objective fact that could be fact-checked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Cofacts do make a distinction between things that are personal opinions, which there’s nothing to fact check." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "What’s the yellow triangle?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Outside of scope. For example, this one is just a regular chat. They think the chat bot as their friend, maybe. This is a future prediction. This says what will happen the day after the election. It’s a novel, essentially. You can’t fact check a sci-fi novel. It’s just not possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the four categories they work on." }, { "speaker": "Jane", "speech": "How do you detect rumors in LINE messaging system if everything is encrypted? Is that a violation of privacy? How do you detect some of the rumors in transit?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People voluntarily share tat to Cofacts. One of the way Cofacts works is everything that’s shared through it gets posted to the public Web." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "The analogy you made with spam and email, are you saying that in some similar timeframe, the world, or at least Taiwan, will get a handle on disinformation, and it won’t seem like the threat that it currently does to all the people who are wound up about it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that email is also a point-to-point, and if you use Pretty Good Privacy, that’s even end-to-end encrypted. I’m saying, from a technical standpoint, they’re extremely similar in configuration. That’s all I’m saying." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, nowadays, there’s more people using social media than people using email back around the turn of the century. There is a larger fan base, so to speak, of disinformation, and so the reward is higher, so to speak. The cost, because of machine learning, is also lower." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say it’s harder in absolute numbers to tackle, but actually, people who are participatory, who are civic-minded, who build systems like these are also machine learning experts. The people fighting it also have better tools compared to the simple bias and filtering." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wouldn’t say in relative numbers whether this is easier or harder, whether it will take longer or shorter. In absolute numbers, this is both a more rewarding thing to do compared to sending spam 18 years ago, but people working on it also have much better tools to work with." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "When we’ve first heard about this, we’ve also understood it in terms of attention hacking. In other words, systems that are optimized, social media companies optimizing their systems in the way they distribute information in order to hack your attention, which is something that email doesn’t do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It kind of does. There were chainmails and things like that, but not at this scale, no, which is why I always recommend this wonderful plugin to people. There’s a mobile version as well. If you install it for Chrome, Firefox, or Safari, it replaces your newsfeed with a inspiring quote, in this case by Atler." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It just makes the attention hacking go away, because then, everything on the Facebook after installing this plugin -- I use it for years now -- is intentional. I type in a keyword, I look at the result, not unlike Google." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I click on the page or a live stream, I watch it, not unlike any blog. I post blogs and interact with people, not unlike Medium or any other system. It takes all the surprising part of Facebook away, but keep all the intentional parts." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "In other words, if you want to use them, there are solutions out there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just like in the bad, old days of email before Spamhaus. People still installed a local filter called SpamAssassin. I worked personally on that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, before this whole movement of conscientious advertisement, people already developed ad blockers -- advertisement blockers -- and some people installed it on their browsers. Before we have a systemic solution, there’s always edge-based solutions." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "We’re very familiar with the idea with the Russians, the Mueller investigation told us how the Russians...With the indictments, we learned how they hacked Facebook and planted these ads." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "The sense is that the Chinese don’t do exactly the same thing when they’re trying to interfere in other people’s politics. What is your sense here? Clearly, Taiwan is often caught on the frontline of Chinese influence operations. Do you see them doing similar things with targeted ads on Facebook and trying to sow dissention in the way that the Russians do?" }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "A lot of the Russian stuff, the indictments describe as race-based news trying to get the two different races across from each other in relative action. I haven’t seen detailed reporting suggesting the Chinese do that thing. What are they up to, if they are up to Internet-based disinformation here in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You just described it as attention hacking, to saturate the topics of discourse, agenda-setting power. If everybody in Taiwan talks about things that are not actually related to the democratic institution and processes, but rather around ideologies, then it sows discord by default." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Can you give us some concrete examples of the kind of things that literally sticking up in Taiwan? Who do you think is doing it?" }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "In the Russian case, what was so fascinating was that a group of people working out of the GIU were buying ads. This is an ad. This is the kind of ad they were buying. I’d never seen anything similar in the Chinese context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I haven’t seen anything similar either, which is why I can’t give any example. I’m just saying people own their cyber space, based on what we’ve seen from the Cofact rumors. There are people doing a lot of concerted work to spread disinformation. Whether they are PRC-based, PRC-funded, I don’t know. I seriously don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s pretty clear that the ones that are the most viral are somewhat related to the idea that all these referendum topics and things like this, they all attract a huge of number of disinformation that diverts attention from the substance of the referendum topics, but rather along particular ideological lines that tries to get people into a knee-jerk mood around such referendum topics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the kind of attention pollution, or attention hijacking, or whatever I’m trying to get across. First, I don’t know whether they are PRC-generated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second, it’s very clear from the format and framing of the message, what they really want to do is to engage everybody in a way that gets rid of people’s space and more into a half-rational discussion, by getting people to see part of the society as the other and somehow reduce the space for substantial collaboration or, at least, a useful, rational debate." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s clear that there are people manufacturing messages to this end, but we don’t know -- at least, I don’t know -- whether they are PRC-based or PRC-funded." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "I’m going to first make a contention, which I’d be very interested to hear your views on, but then ask how it plays into all of this stuff." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "It seems to me that Taiwan has a uniquely vigorous civil society -- the Sunflower Movement, all these campaigns on the environment, on gay marriage, all of this stuff -- and degree of public engagement that many longer-standing democracies would love to have, and don’t." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re new to this. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Maybe that’s right. Does that make Taiwan more or less vulnerable to the same degree as those other democracies to this kind of stuff?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say in the government side -- because I work open government -- I think it does make it easier for us in the government to say, if we want all the ministries, after detecting there’s a popular disinformation campaign, now every ministry is committed within five hours -- I think it’s going to be four hours real soon now -- to give a clarification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It turns a Web-kind, like a real-time shooter game into a time-based game, more like chess or bridge. The analogy is that if you see something that is partial information on morning, people learn to wait until noon, and there will always be a piece of clarification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying that the ministries always have all the information, but at least, they can complete the part of the gestalt so that people don’t project literally psychologically into the partial message. Same, when it goes around in noon, then by dinnertime, there will be a piece of clarification from the respective authorities and ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The very fact that I’m personally easily accessible -- anyone can just come to my office hour every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM and have a face-to-face chat -- and the fact that I publish everything that I’m a chair of, including internal meetings and interviews such as this one 10 working days after each conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People know after I become digital minister, I talk with 3,000 people, 159,000 speeches. It all gives a radically transparent way of how exactly does digital minister work, and what kind of policy we’re working on, and why we’re working on it. It gives the context, not just the what, of the protection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "None of this would be possible without a thriving civil society that almost always have higher legitimacy than the administration itself. When we talk to the ministries, saying we really have to respond in time, the ministries don’t say the civil society would misinterpret our results, or that it’s better if we just keep people in the dark, or things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each ministry understands that compared to the most well-known civil society counterpart, that counterpart often has higher legitimacy than the ministry. It’s in our best interest to be radically open, because then we can collaborate with people in the civil society working on the same thing." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "If I can ask this slightly awkward political question, do you think this sort of thing is only possible in a DPP government in the sense that the DPP has closer ties to those protest movements and that organizing? Could you imagine this in the previous government, for example?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This was many of these, including building the Join platform, join.gov.tw, which is our national e-participation platform, 5 million users out of 23 million people, is actually founded in 2015 in the previous cabinet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It evidently has happened under the previous cabinet, but with the caveat, of course, mostly it’s led by Simon Chang and Jaclyn Tsai, previous cabinet members who are non-partisan. They’re not DPP, but they’re not, strictly speaking, KMT either." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Simon Chang was Director of Engineering at Google Asia. Jaclyn Tsai was Director of Legal Affairs, IBM Asia." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like me — who worked with Apple — we are multicolored." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say that, while this work did not start within the DPP, having Dr. Tsai as the President does make it easier for the civil society to engage more with the government apparatus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The current apparatus was first put together in 2015, in response to the Occupy the year before." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "The other aspect of this, apart from misinformation and disinformation is cyber attacks, DDoS and all sorts of things. How much of a threat is that and how do you deal with that threat?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unlike disinformation, which we really have pretty good idea of the stem-like status of it, on server security, it’s many, many, many layers. Disinformation is predicated on the current generation of social media and its interface. Structurally, it’s, I wouldn’t say, entirely isomorphic, but it’s very similar to what we already know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Server security on the other hand, the attacks are inventive. Like the BGP hijack thing, which is forcing through misconfiguration a certain number of traffic to route through certain points of presence that used to be a one-shot trick." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people using that technique have escalated and perfected that particular technique so that it could be used both as a surveillance route, but it can also be configured, as in a few years ago, as a great cannon kind of way where people configured popular websites to DDoS the website GitHub. That is very well-documented." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that the configuration changes every day, literally. It is not as determined as social media and its rules of information dissipation and dissemination. Rather, it is acting on the physical law itself of cyber space. The leading physicists, to use that analogy, gets very inventive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My answer is two-fold. The first is that Cyber Security Act is the priority act. There’s no other budget priorities that I’m aware of that has a higher priority in our new budget cycle. With all the government, large projects have to dedicate five percent to cyber security, and medium projects, six percent, small projects, seven percent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Penetration testing to all new systems is now a norm, like the system that I personally set up when I joined the cabinet was subject to six months of penetration testing by top-notch white hat hackers before we even rolled it out to other departments and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is, of course, also to build relationships with the white hat community so that they meet the digital minister and the president every once in a while. They get paid really well. There’s a thriving cyber security service industry, so they don’t go to the dark side, which has cookies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Building the relationship with the white hats, as well as through laws and regulations, making sure there’s plenty of budget and personnel in critical infrastructures and so on, that is evidently our highest priority, and it’s already expressed in laws, budgets, and regulations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are literally on the frontline, and we behave as such. People don’t have to take training courses. They just go and face the real situation." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Can you give us some scary stats or anecdotes about how frequent, or how severe, or how accomplished the kinds of cyber attacks you’ve experienced are in government?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can’t give you any specific cases, because as part of my compact, I have three conditions joining the cabinet: Radical transparency, voluntary association, location independence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Part of the deal of radical transparency is that in a meeting I’m a chair of, I publish everything. In the Freedom of Information Act, that means the drafting stage material, which is supposed to be confidential, there’s an escape clause, but if it’s for the public good, then it may be disclosed. That’s my working condition. I disclose everything." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a counterpart to that, I cannot access state confidential information, because according to our State Secrets Law, if any system’s input contains the secret, the entire system becomes a state secret. I make a physical isolation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there’s any particular cases that are state confidential, that is handled by the Cyber Security Department, the NCCST, and the National Security Council, the NSC. I don’t know anything about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I only work on the general mechanisms, education, and things like that, and also, of course, part of the regulation planning, and things like that, but I cannot access specific incidents." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they, for example, run military drills, I take a day off. I still don’t know where the bunkers are, so there’s no risk of me disclosing that. I really don’t know what 衡山指揮所 looks like." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "That’s a good segue to another broad topic that I’d like to ask about, but I don’t want to stop if you guys have more to ask about." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "You must get this all the time. It seems your appointment, the conditions you just described, it’s unusual. I assume it’s a first in Taiwan. It would be a first almost anywhere." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To have a politician...There’s some people in Iceland that will say that they invented this first, but yes." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "There you go. Iceland and then Taiwan. It seems to me related to what I was saying about the incredibly vigorous civil society. Can you explain how you think that came about here exactly? Why is it that Taiwan is so blessed with that when so few countries are? What’s your explanation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would cite two factors. The first is that the lifting of the martial law, which is ’87, and the first presidential election, which is ’96. There’s a decade in between. There’s a decade where I grew up, where I was 6 to 15 around this stage. It’s my formative years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I remember those years as the CSOs, the civil society organizations, the social sector, the social enterprises, the co-ops gaining legitimacy really, really quickly. After lifting the martial law, they started working on what we will now call sustainable development ideas. They really gather around a large amount of people interested in betterment of the society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the same time, there is still no presidential election. The legitimacy of the administration will not be established until ’96. There’s a decade of head start for the social sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The legitimacy, especially for people my age or older, when the disaster happens somewhere in Taiwan, and the local office publish a number, and Tzu-Chi publish a number, people tend to believe Tzu-Chi’s number. It is a fact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the first reason why that we have such a thriving social sector. It’s because they were given a decade of head start, compared to the administration, to gain legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "You mean that because people weren’t fully participating in electoral democracy, but they still had that urge..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There was no electoral democracy to speak of." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "They channeled that energy into..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That energy into co-ops, into social enterprises, and so on. That’s the first reason." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second one is that the year ’96 is also the beginning of the dot com boom. People associated instinctively the democracy for real with cyber space, with free access to information and viewpoints. I remember personally working on the first presidential election campaign by building websites and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Representative democracy began at the same time as what we will now call collaborative governance, which is what World Wide Web brings to everybody. Instead of 200 years of proud tradition of representative democracy, they had the same beginning. From the very beginning it’s mingled together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Internet and democracy, they’re not two things in Taiwan. The generation that starts to do presidential election campaigning is also the same generation that has access to the World Web." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of two kinds of people, people working on public administration and people working on digital, and design, and cyber, we have the same generation of people pretty much balanced in the pursuits." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "How does that lead to more civic participation necessarily? I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t see the connection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Think Estonia. There’s less legacy. There’s less established ways to channel your political visibility through existing associations or existing representative council members. All these were fairly new." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While these are building, at the same time, the PTT or other visibility organizing methodologies are also building on the World Web and on the Internet in general. These two are keeping reinforcing each other. Unlike in other older democracies, it’s evident that if you have access here, it’s worth more than having access here, until very recently." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, these two are always mingled, so that people in the representative democracy think they have also to learn some digital communication, otherwise they don’t survive. On the other hand, the people who are digital activists, they also have to learn something about the newly budding representative democracy, otherwise they don’t get political way." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "You mean the fact that the digital and the political were mixed..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the same generation." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "It in effect provided better organizing methods that were instantly plugged into politics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. It’s woven into the fabric of politics, just like Estonia, after they have their post-Internet constitution, the paperless way of working digital-first is part of their identity now. That really increases the participation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When Dr. Tsai Ing-wen said, \"Broadband is a human right. Everybody everywhere in Taiwan need to have 10 megabits per second, otherwise it’s our fault,\" it’s not seen as outlandish. It is seen as natural. You can’t say that in many other jurisdictions." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "I wonder if I could ask you about digital skills and brain drain." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "How worried are you about the brain drain, and what can you do to reverse it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean brain drain in Taiwan? We are seeing a reverse brain drain. It was the opposite before it. I’m not worried at all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can see, around the time that we rolled out AI Taiwan plan -- which is just a year before, I think -- we can see pretty clearly...Let me see if we can increase the WiFi situation a little bit by switching to a better hotspot, or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have such kind of one-page describe portals to our national endeavors, such as when you Google AI Taiwan, the first hit is going to be ai.taiwan.gov.tw. I think it’s getting out there now. You see the AI for Industrial Innovation, Innovation Hub, Pilot Project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The very fact that if you think you can break the law for a year and show everybody your AI idea is better, you get to actually break the law for a year, and things like that. We do have a lot of tailor-made-for-AI regulatory programs, where literally, you can break the law for a year to experiment with AI technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like Ethan Tu, previously Director, Cortana Technology, Microsoft, when he went back to Taiwan, he is not reverse brain draining himself only. He recruited his teammates in the Cortana team and brought a lot of people back to Taiwan to work on AI embodiment, which is a very thriving field anywhere in the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s also around the past year and a half where Microsoft said we’re going to set up a 100 to 200-person AI research center in Taiwan. Then Google followed, and IBM, Nvidia, and Amazon, Uber, you name it, all started rolling out their programs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the reason why is AI embodiment. When AI was still purely cognitive, like playing chess or Go, it doesn’t need the various verticals that Taiwan provides. It can be purely algorithmic. Everybody now sees AI as actually assistive intelligence, not just artificial intelligence, which is better for the AlphaGos of the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For it to be assistive intelligence, it need to interact with the society somehow. It need to embed itself into a workplace somehow. For that, you need experienced designers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You need people who design the hearing, the seeing, the body placement, the social norm around the AI interaction with people, both in the individual scale, the edge CI, and the city scale. Smart city as well as how it handles personal agency and data agency. All these are cutting-edge issues that requires a very fast turnaround to all related verticals to work with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For those multinational teams, their choice is either go to Taiwan, where you get access to all this expertise that I just mentioned there, within one hour and a half of high-speed rail of each other, or you can separate those five expertise into five time zones. That limits how fast you can iterate. We are seeing a reverse brain drain. AI is a large part of it." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "The other thing, when we’ve written about AI, that we’ve focused on a lot is the utility or essential to have access to very large datasets to be able to use those." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "If you compare the size of Taiwan’s datasets to the size in China’s, and the willingness. I don’t what privacy laws exist here. We assume that in China, not only is there a large amount of data, but the freedom to exploit that data for generating AI..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re happy to share it with Google how? They’re maybe happy to share it with, I don’t know, SOEs, but I’m not sure at all that they’re willing to share it with oversea teams." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "No, I agree. I’m saying, compared to Taiwan, if you’re..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we’re going to share. That’s the main difference. Open data is actually a national policy. It’s part of our FOIA now. If you have a FOIA request or anything that the government should disclose actively under FOIA, and that there is structured data related, then the government is actually compelled to release the structured data, not just the human-readable data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We also put in our procurement laws that all the vendors need to start evaluating what we call open API standard, which makes machine-to-machine talking much easier without going into a machine-to-machine translation adapter." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That also is the ground on which we select vendors, the vendors who say, \"Oh, I cannot implement open API,\" or vendors who say, \"Oh, I can build a website, but it’s going to be inaccessible to blind people.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They get disqualified for unprofessionalism. We don’t see that in other nearby jurisdictions. Also, I would say the citizen-science scene in Taiwan is really spectacular. People caring about air quality just set up these less than $100 AirBoxes in their balcony, in their schools, in their homes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just started collecting atmospheric data, and sharing it to a distributed ledger, a DLT. Then we download from that DLT into the collective intelligence platform, the CI platform, which you can find ci.taiwan.gov.tw, which unites the meteorological, water quality, earthquake, disaster prevention data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just recently, the water quality team was in Wellington and working with the Wellington government on their data to detect water leakage quickly and to have a higher, better turnaround on water shortage problems." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m saying it’s all about intention. It’s not about data in itself. In Taiwan, we see data as a beginning of a relationship. Of course, the EU, with the GDPR, is now gradually reckoning this view. The GDPR also somewhat sees data as a relation, where they define the relations as the permission to have a portable, explainable, and usable way of understanding accountability of data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Always in Taiwan, we see data as a beginning of a relation. When a citizen scientist contribute this data and store it in the distributed ledger, they know that we in the supercomputing center will not change the numbers they contributed. Otherwise, everybody on blockchain sees that we’re changing the numbers so we’re not going to change the numbers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We decide that since we can’t beat them physically, we join them. [laughs] We are committed to join the AirBox network by setting up similar microsensors of atmospheric data in the places where there’s a higher digital gap. The citizen scientist also tells that they really want a station here in the middle of the Taiwan street to tell where the wind blows." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, they cannot set an AirBox station there. Even if you have a drone, it eventually run out battery. Because we’re going to set up wind power there, on the turbines, where there’s plenty of electricity, I’m sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea is that we can put it into our procurement template so that the people who provide service to the public through electricity or whatever it means agree to a data sharing plan, so that we can get atmospheric data from that point also into this collaborative, collective intelligence network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s all open innovation, people around the world just download this open source stuff and put it on open hardware. By default, they report their numbers back to Taiwan. It’s actually a huge amount of data, and it doesn’t have to come just from Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s how we contribute to climate science and other ways to mitigate climate change and things like that. In sustainable development goals parlance, that is the 16.18, the 17.17, and the 17.6, which is just reliable data through effective partnerships that is open to all." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a very, I would say, island network way of thinking about data and innovation. That is, again, not comparing absolute numbers, but just using the relationship that is formed by data diplomatically, socially, and also through innovation." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "When you said companies can literally break the law for a year, can you explain what you meant by that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes. This is a really new thing. It only introduced this year. There is a website called sandbox.org.tw, where you can fork the regulation. Fork is a computer science term that says you see the regulation going this way, but you think there is a social environmental need, so I want to bring it this way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whether this works or not for the public benefit, we don’t know. Let’s try for a year and see what works or breaks. If it works, it merges back into the regulation system. If it breaks, well, we think the investors and also everybody learned something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s open innovation, people try a different angle the next time. This January, it’s the platform economy. This April, we now have the fintech sandbox. We expect in December the UV sandbox. There’s also a 5G sandbox that’s rolling out any time now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In every place where a ministry used to whitelist experiments, they now say, if you can say your idea may have some merit for address of social need, then regardless of what the minister of transportation think you are doing, it could be a drone, a car, a ship or anything in-between because it’s owned by ministry of economy, today it’s all the same." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can propose such self-driving vehicles, and you get to operate after simulation in a publicly visible space, then you get to operate for a year, essentially breaking any law whatsoever. You can challenge any regulation by municipality or even other ministries as well in your proposal of sandbox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m always obliged to say, at this point, other than money laundering and funding the terrorism, because we know how those experiments go, other than AML and funding terrorism, everything is fair game. You can challenge any regulation from any ministry if you think it’s better for the society." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "I didn’t follow in that explanation, if there is a moment for the government to intervene and say, \"Oh, hang on a second. That’s a fork too far,\" if you see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It start with a multistakeholder panel. Of course, if you want to work on, say, AI banking for financial inclusion, an innovator may say, \"I think it makes no sense for people to use their ID card over-the-counter to open a bank account.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They think that when they had their first SIM card in a Telco, that’s already KYC enough, that people should be able to open bank accounts purely from their mobile phones." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even they have no credit history, they have, after all, paying telecom bills for a year or more. Even for people who are 18 years old or 20 years old, which has no credit history, they think their AI banking algorithm can calculate a reasonable credit history for them for financial inclusion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All of these are of course breaking the ministry of finance regulations, but of course the ministry of finance need to vote on it. There is a multistakeholder panel of which there’s many ministerial seats as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think they’re just over half, so by voting it into the sandbox, it still says something about the ministries. Although cautious, they think it may have a chance of succeeding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If this is breaking the law for breaking the law’s sake, which is vandalism, I’m sure that a committee with more than half of officials, public servants, they will not vote yes on such vandalism." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "If the fintech company came along and said, \"Actually, I think the capital requirements, we can get by without, you know, the starting capital,\" then the committee would presumably say..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The committee may say, \"For the first year, for the year of experiment, I agree that you don’t need a capitals, but after the experimentation period, I’m going to require that you have such and such capital requirements.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There could be strings attached, like the mobile banking money, which is literally the case in the sandbox." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The committee said, the first phase which is one year, 4,000 people, I think, \"If there is five cases of your algorithm misidentifying the KYC, that means that it’s worse than the current banking record, then the experiment terminates and it’s not ready for the prime time. I’m sorry, but it’s not ready for the prime time.\"" }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "The KYC was a real example of the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a real example, as is the credit history through telecom bills. These are, of course, for our social benefit because they increase financial inclusion, but it’s also of course very good for the startups as well, and there’s many other examples." }, { "speaker": "Jane", "speech": "Minister Tang, you were a sort of entrepreneur in Silicon Valley, and you came back to Taiwan. Was that just purely out of patriotism, or did you think that there were actually real...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The food is better here." }, { "speaker": "Jane", "speech": "Oh, really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Literally. Also, I don’t like long meetings. I worked with Apple for six years on Siri and other language technologies, but I’ve never visited the Cupertino spaceship now. I’ve never visited spaceship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why is that, while I really like telepresence, and the time zone difference enables me to say, with my team, \"I only have one hour,\" which is midnight, Taiwan time, and beginning of the day, Silicon Valley time, to have standard meetings, and any meetings whatsoever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the meeting goes longer than hour, then I’m sorry, but I have to sleep. Otherwise, they have to wake up real early. They don’t do that, either. Because of that, I think the time zone difference makes it easier for me to work on things in a self-describatory fashion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We used to configure our QA, development, and PM teams in eight-hour apart chunks, just like GPS, so that people are encouraged to produce self-describing artifacts. That increases the institutional memory." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s with another Silicon Valley startup called Socialtext, which is now Peoplefluent. In any case, I worked with them for eight years also. I visited Palo Alto maybe exactly four times. That’s the way I prefer to work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I wouldn’t say I go back to Taiwan. I’m physically located in Taiwan, but I’m still working with the Silicon Valley culture and folks, and also Oxford University Press, which is another eight hours, but in the other direction." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Government after Silicon Valley, how is it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m still working with the Silicon Valley. I always stress I’m working with the cabinet, not for the cabinet. I’m at a Lagrange point between the citizenry and the government. It’s a lot of fun. Because of my compact, which is location independence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I get to work in places like this, and entertain the company of pursuers of electric vehicles, which are self-driving tricycles that we just try out in Social Innovation Lab. It is a lot of fun. Back when I started a movement around a new programming language, I had this rallying cry, \"Optimize for fun.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is still the rallying cry as the digital minister. Basically, I make sure that people, when participating in collaborative meetings in this space, stop seeing things as a zero-sum game between the organizers and the career public service in-between, which is anonymous, but bears all the tension." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Rather, a creative space, where given the different positions, people can work out common values. It’s worth breaking the law for a year for those common values. That is, I think, a very fun-oriented way of policymaking, if you can even call it that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Location independence also means I don’t wait for people to come to Taipei. I tour around. For example, this is Bali, and even more remote places, like Taitung and so on. All the 12 ministries are here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure that they see through my eyes, of my ethnographic interactions, which is just a cool phrase for hanging out. They see me hang out with the local people, indigenous, rural, or whatever tribes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They see how their national policies function well or not regionally. They have to answer to those questions immediately. Within 14 days, everything is radically published and radically open. This really changes the civil service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, if they figure out some way to interpret for innovation, and it works, the minister get all the credit. If it fails spectacularly, the ministry always blames them, so there’s nothing in it for them. They still do it, out of patriotism, I’m sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with this radical transparency and location independence, it’s the other way around. People really see the professionalism of career public service when they brainstorm to find innovative way to solve local issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Their full name is on the transcript. They get the full credit. When I talk to journalists, I always highlight the particular names of career public servants, like Yang Chin-Heng, who is the Participation Officer of the Ministry of Finance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That address the co-creation issue of the tax filing system, by working with the petitioners to cocreate this year’s tax filing system, and so on. They get all the credit. If things don’t work out, if it doesn’t make it to policy, then the civil society and the private sector just carry on their idea. There’s nothing lost." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The full context is available, anyway. If it fails even more spectacularly, as far as I know, I am the only minister doing this in the world, anyway. They can always blame Audrey. For the risk to be absorbed, for the innovation to save everybody’s time, and also to have the full credit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t always deliver on all three concurrently, but we make sure it’s Pareto improvement, meaning that we don’t sacrifice one for the other two. That’s the theory of change." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Related questions, how did this come about, and how has it gone down? It just seems to me that, as you say, you’re the only minister doing this in the world. I’ve got limited experience of the Taiwanese government and bureaucracy, but it seems fairly like bureaucracies everywhere, a staid, buttoned-down kind of place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Silicon Valley culture, a transgender minister, all these things that must seem radical to people. How did you come to get your job, and how have other people responded to it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think people are always happy there is somebody absorbing the risk. [laughs] I get unconditional welcome. That’s also, voluntary association means I don’t take orders, nor do I give orders. I don’t go to the defense minister and say, \"Oh, tomorrow, you’re going to do things my way.\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is totally not happening. Basically, my office is unique, perhaps, in configuration. It’s literally, I can poach one person -- but they have to be a volunteer -- from each ministry. I’m a horizontal minister, and there’s 34 vertical ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Theoretically, I can have 34 staff members. At the moment, it’s 22. It means that it a true multistakeholder team. Every ministry that participates brings a different value. Each ministry is a value in itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t give them command. They rank and score themselves. All I ask, there’s only one ask that I do to them, which is to work out loud, and nothing else. When we only have four ministries joining, we used to have physical Post-It Notes, the legacy of which you still see it on the window." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with 22 people, paper-based Post-It Notes no longer works. [laughs] We’re fully digital now. Because I can’t touch state secret, I can always bring this up to journalists without any...This is the real work that we are working on, sorting it into waiting, doing, and done." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In each item, you can see which ministries are interested in this, how they sign up, which are the milestones, artifacts, and things like that, which is not unlike any other Silicon Valley startup. This is how the entrepreneurs manage our work nowadays." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is essentially internal startup that involves one person from each ministry that are willing to join. Back in their ministry, there’s also a team of what we call participation officers that also amplifies this way of working, of horizontalism, into branches of that ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, the Tainan municipality has signed on as well. After this interview, I’ll give you gifts of comic books that we use to explain this whole process. The way we got into this way of work is by design of voluntary association through a entirely cross-silo way of teaming up the ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh yeah. This is the open government comic of the very taxing tax filing system. It’s in six languages, including indigenous. That’s the basic idea. That’s the training material, literally the training material that we give to people. It’s also in Taiwanese, Hoklo, and Hakka. That’s the theory of change of my work." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "I meant more of how did the president come to..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To discover me?" }, { "speaker": "Jane", "speech": "[laughs] Yes." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "I mean..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve been doing this since late 2014. I’m around for long time now, for four years now. Right after the Sunflower Movement..." }, { "speaker": "Jane", "speech": "You took part in the Sunflower Movement, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh yeah. Sure. I was a petal..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...in the Sunflower Movement, mostly working on the communication infrastructure. After Sunflower, there was a mayoral election at the end of that year. There was also a national forum on economic development where people asked for a open government platform. join.g0v.tw was the end result of that particular national forum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Those two combined into the end-of-the-year election result in 2014, where all the candidates that supported the Occupy gets elected as mayors, sometimes without preparing any auguration speech." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the candidates that are against the Occupy lose their seats. The political will is very clear. Anyone who advocate for transparency, it’s not progressive, it’s baseline. Otherwise, you don’t get to be mayors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then the premier, Jiang Yi-huah, resigned. A new premier -- I think it was Mao Chi-kuo -- appointed the deputy premier, Simon Chang, Chang San-cheng, in charge of the open government roadmap." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the neutrals during the Occupy, the facilitators, the civic-type people, the communication people, and so on, were invited to the cabinet -- I think there’s an English word for this - as reverse mentors to the ministers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m kind of a understudy minister to Minister Jaclyn Tsai at that time. We worked together for a couple of years. While she is still the horizontal minister of cyberspace law, I am in charge of the more digital or technical part of the consultations, for example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We worked together for two years. They made sure that I trained more than 1,000 career public servants in the art of open government. That’s all before Dr. Tsai Ing-wen became president." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this continuity is also very important because Simon Chang, when independent non-partisan, told each ministry to checkpoint their working progress to the public Internet for Dr. Lin Chuan, also independent non-partisan, to download as the transition plan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This benefits me enormously because I joined the cabinet five months after its forming of Dr. Lin Chuan, but I still get access to the transition documents. I really hit the ground running. Without such a open non-partisan hand-off, that would be very difficult to me to do the continuity thing." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "I know you say you don’t get involved in state secrets, but clearly you have a giant neighbor that is presumably reading all of this. Is there..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, my radical transparent records. Yes." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Is there any kind of qualm that you’re next to a very big, aggressive China and there’s stuff here that would help them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I’m sure Taiwan can help." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "No. I mean is there anything they could use to harm you? Can they learn anything from this..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I literally think Taiwan can help. They also signed the Sustainable Development Goals, supposedly. 16.10, 16.7, 16.6 is also something the PRC has agreed on, to reach by year 2030." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Yeah, but they don’t mean it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not sure about it. I would like to challenge that assumption. I remember the martial law days when I was five years old. That was before lifting of martial law. The Kuomintang was never wrong. It’s the martial law, so they can be never wrong. They can never be wrong." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still, there are factions within the KMT working on 16.10, 16.7, and 16.6. Even within a political environment that doesn’t allow for a opposition party, there’s still people working on the rule of law and due process and access to information." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t think these two are completely contradicting each other. I don’t think openness and participation requires a representative democracy. They of course help each other." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "You can have that, but you could also look at today’s China and judge by most objective standards it’s not heading in that direction. It’s locking people up who are doing that kind of stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’d like to help. We’d like to help not just the PRC, but also all our neighbors who are not painted green on the CIVICUS Monitor." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "I’m sure that’s great. I’m just wondering, do you have colleagues who worry that you’re making Taiwan vulnerable by opening up the inner workings of government?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How so? How so? If there are information that would make Taiwan vulnerable, they will be marked confidential. If they’re marked confidential, I don’t see it. I can’t, actually." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "What percent of the government’s work do you think you see?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know. I don’t know how many things are confidential. They never come to me and say, \"Hey, minister. Here’s some confidential information. I would like you to publish it radically.\"" }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "You must have a sense of the proportions of government work you’re not seeing, no?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, actually, because the cabinet and the president’s office has a very clear kind of firewall. The cross-strait defense and foreign, these are the purview of the presidency. They’re mostly handled by the National Security Council, which is not a cabinet member, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the cabinet, we talk about, of course, more domestic issues. Even the foreign ministry within the cabinet, it’s separated into the confidential branch, which is NSC-led, and the non-confidential branch, which is more Twitter accounts, more communication-oriented." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I, of course, work only with the communication branch of things. I don’t know how large that branch is. I really don’t know. It’s just like I take a day off on military drills. I don’t know how large that command center is." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Presume you can’t attend the cabinet because your colleagues wouldn’t want their deliberations made public, but you can’t not make them public, right? How do you...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How do I work? Very simply. There is a radical transparency protocol. visit.pdis.tw talks about this." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "I mean when there’s a cabinet meeting, can you go?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s no confidential information in cabinet meeting. We publish the entire discussion of cabinet meeting in the press conference right after each cabinet meeting. All the slides that we see, you also see." }, { "speaker": "David Rennie", "speech": "Literally, with the transcript?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not the full transcript, of course, but the same slides, the same cabinet meeting agenda. Kolas Yotaka will recite what she just heard from the ministers." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Is that because there are cabinet sub-committees or something? There’s stuff that isn’t secret, but it’s highly sensitive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then I don’t get invited to those. I don’t know how many there are because I don’t get invited to those. This is a DMZ..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...demilitarized zone, which is always open to deliberation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s also sensitive in the sense of not strictly speaking confidential but controversial or could be made sensational, which is why we allow people in the public service to edit for 10 working days and people from outside, like media, for 10 days to take out the part that are in-jokes that are bound to be misunderstood or to supply with additional information for context and clarification." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not like we live-stream every meeting. This is within a series of deliberation, people can change the wordings of what they said in the meeting to sound professional. They do do that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The additional benefit is that in many meetings, the different sides are just talking without listening. Sometimes we say, \"There’s still a controversy. There’s still a dispute. We will have to schedule another meeting.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After 10 working days of reviewing, they actually have to read through the other side’s position. More often than not, they come to me and say, \"Minister, actually we don’t need another meeting. We see where the other side is coming from.\" It’s also very useful internally as a coordination tool." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Edward Carr", "speech": "Fascinating. Thank you very much, minister." }, { "speaker": "Jane", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Edward McBride", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Can you hear us?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello, everyone. Hello." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Fantastic. Let me just...There we go. Great, we can see you. We also have the Slido up, and we have a few questions already, Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Thank you very much for your talk, and thank you for joining us all the way from Taiwan. We just heard your short talk, which set out some of the things you’ve been doing in government, which is very, very interesting, I think." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "We have people here in the room from government watchers, civil society organizations. Especially we’ve been talking a lot about accountability, about new technology and about the transparency and the data." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "I’d like to start off maybe asking you a question about, having been on both sides now, as an activist, holding governments and parliaments to account on one side of new technology, and then in government. What do you know, after that change of sector that now you wish you’d known when you were on the other side?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s a great question. It’s, in fact, one of the question in Slido, also. I’m highlighting that question. I hope you can see the question from the other projector. Feel free to like each other’s question on Slido so that I know. If five people prefer me to answer the next question, then I will move on to the one with the most number of likes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a great question. I always emphasize that I work with the cabinet, not for the cabinet. I work with the people, not for the people. This is very important. I’m at the Lagrange point between the movement on one side and the government on the other side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you know, between any two planet or celestial bodies, there is this triangle point called the Lagrange point where the gravity is stable. That’s where all our satellites, space missions, and so is located because you can spend least amount of effort, but can still be in that triangular position compared to those two celestial bodies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My role, through radical transparency, through voluntary association, whether it’s from the movement side as I did during the Occupy, facilitating the 20 different NGOs to understand what each other have to say, or now within the cabinet, getting the 34 ministries understanding each other’s values in the map of the sustainable development goals, it is the same work that I’m performing, basically by facilitating the different interests." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is one thing that I didn’t know before I joined the cabinet as a minister with the government. The public service, I thought that they were not innovative, that they’re afraid of change by nature. That is a myth that is not true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I have discovered after setting up radical transparency is that they only appear to be not innovative because the ministers took all the credit of innovation, and they took all the blame for not executing well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through radical transparency, we create a environment where the civil servants can be seen by the citizens, either online through teleconference or offline, on how innovative they really are and share the credit. If things go wrong, I can take the blame. I can take the risk." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this kind of environment, the public service is just as innovative as the activists. That is the main surprising thing that I discovered that I wish I had known earlier before joining the civil service." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "That’s very interesting. I think maybe it’d be interesting to hear a bit more about radical transparency. I’m thinking particularly how do different people who you’re engaging with respond to this idea. The question is a radical idea, as you say." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "How do your colleagues, how do some of the civil servants you work with respond to do it? When they respond negatively or with fear, how do you use that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By radical transparency, I mean radical as in root, like transparency at the root. In the Freedom of Information Act, in the FOIA Act in Taiwan, which is the base act for open data also, I’m sure it’s the same in many other jurisdiction, the freedom of information applies only after the public service makes a decision." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can get all the data, but it’s only after a policy is being made. The discussion before making a discussion, the context, the draft, is exempted from the freedom of information. The end result is that people can know what of the policy, but they cannot know the why of policymaking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This creates a tension because then the people in the various activism works, they can only work with what is already there. They cannot work with the intention of the public service. Radical transparency, to me, means that, as my working condition, all the meetings, internal meetings that I chair, after editing for two weeks, everybody publish whatever everybody said to the public." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is not live streaming. People can still edit to correct typos, to increase professionalism, and things like that. The effect is twofold. The first is that people learned that the people outside the government are just as creative as the people inside the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you let them know the context, the solution will appear from the people who protest the most. The people closest to the pain actually has the best ideas, and that is the thing that the public service has discovered through radical transparency." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, of course, there is a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt around the transparency of just opening up our work. I mitigate it by doing two things. First, I don’t touch any state secret. If they have a military drill, I just take a day off. I don’t know where the bunkers are. I don’t touch state secret." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Second, it’s by voluntary association. People who are not comfortable, they can still speak, but they say they are the Ministry of Finance representative. They don’t have to put their real names on it. These two compromises, so to speak, makes it possible to create a radically transparent environment that is still comfortable with the public service." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you can see, if I’m sharing my screen now, this tracks basically everything that I have spoken with. I have spoken with 3,000 people in more than 150,000 speeches." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are all the sections. Everything that I have ever said to lobbyists, to media, to anything, including this particular talk with you, will be posted in its entirety here. This basically creates a condition of what we call open by default." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just me. If I set this example, all the different ministries, all the 34 ministries are now comfortable to publish their entire budget, more than 1,300 ongoing projects, their KPIs, their spendings, their monthly procurements, everything basically, for everybody to see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just for everybody to see about the budget, about the spending and procurement, but it’s also for everybody to comment. The responsible authority don’t have to answer 50 phone calls from different media, different councilors. They can just reply once, publicly, and then everybody else can very easily find it through search engines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our auditing agency can also use this way to crowdsource people’s fears, uncertainty, and doubts around new administrative functions. What I’m saying is that it’s not just me doing this, but it’s actually the entire auditing agency and all the 34 ministries putting up their work for everybody to participate. This is a very significant change in Taiwan’s way of governance." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "You may see some of the questions on Slido. There’s a couple of concerns or maybe reasons for concern that are being asked about. One is we were having, in the previous keynotes, the issue of as this space opens up, on the one hand, there’s also concern about privacy on the other. The panopticon is what Mandela referred to." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "We have, in Africa, a number of states that are, in a way, embracing technology and in some ways, opening up, but also, at the same time, watching us much more. Do you think there are any tensions there for you in these processes?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I don’t think there is a tension here. I think cybersecurity and privacy are the foundation stones on which participation is made. If you don’t have cybersecurity and trust of the cyber system, that is to say the protection of privacy, it is impossible actually to do genuine participation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We believe in it very, very strongly in Taiwan. If you look at not just the participation platform that I talk about, which is the radically transparent numbers, procurements, budget, and these are not people. These are not private. This has nothing private in it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we talk about the regional speech, like the freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of organization, freedom of expression, and so on, if you look at the CIVICUS Monitor, in our region, we are the only one that is fully open." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are, in fact, still expanding in civil society space in the protection of privacy, with the freedom of speech and assembly, every day, while jurisdictions around us are perhaps shrinking, sometimes very quickly. I show you this map because this is very pertinent of the way we view data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we don’t think data as oil or resource or mining. We don’t use any noun to describe data. Data actually has nothing in common with oil, mining, or any natural resources. 10 years ago, when somebody said data is like oil, they only mean that it’s very expensive to refine. That’s the only similarity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with machine learning and faster computers, even that similarity goes away because everybody can produce and analyze data now. There is absolutely nothing in common with oil." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we view data is a relation. In Taiwan, we care very much about people’s relationship with each other. If I have some personal data that I entrust you with, that means that we start a relationship, and you are held accountable to keep the data up-to-date for our mutual benefit. I, because of my relation, can decide to trust you more or less based on the way you treat my data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is why always in e-participation, like in Slido, you can participate as an anonymous person, as a pseudonym, or anything in between. We’re not asking anyone to disclose their real name or identity. It’s just a consistent handle that we can have a back-and-forth conversation on. That’s all we ask. This has nothing to do with surveillance and has everything to do with building trust over time." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Before we run out of time, Audrey, because you kindly gave us your time, but I know we’re going to run out in a few minutes, I’m looking at Slido, which we’ve never used before. Thank you for introducing us to it." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "The two most popular questions concern how inclusive these processes are on their digital platforms. Do most people in Taiwan, including older people, including people who are marginalized, do they know about them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Are they able to connect?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I understand we are quite out of time so I will answer each question very quickly. In Taiwan, broadband is a human right. Anywhere in Taiwan, indigenous, rural, remote islands, if you don’t have 10 megabits per second, it’s my fault." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Broadband is a human right, and everything builds on the broadband as human right. Yes, we have a lot of people participating that are young people, but we also have a lot of retired people participating. The e-participation platform, five million active users out of 23 million people in Taiwan. It’s a significant chunk of population." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our numbers say that they have no difference between the age groups. There are some difference between the indigenous nations and the more ethnic kind of places, I think mostly because of the language problem. We’re fixing that using artificial intelligence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will not read out question. I’ll just answer quickly. I think we should bring technology to people instead of asking people to technology. The new experiment I’m doing this year is me, personally, going to indigenous places, translating our open government material into indigenous languages like Amis." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Working with their elders and ambassadors to basically have them set a agenda, we commit ourself into participating in their inclusive process so it’s turned the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From being inside the government, it’s easy if it saves everybody work. Previous, when the public service want to say save the people two hours of work, somebody, somewhere has to work three hours more. Now, with digital technology, for the first time, we say, \"If you are being fully accountable, it actually saves you time, over time.\" That has been the winning argument so far." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is no tyranny of structurelessness because there is just feelings and statements. It is not about, in the original tyranny paper, a few people dominating the discussion because these are individual sentiment that resonate or not with people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is how pol.is deal with this, by having no oppressive power in the space. Instead, people can just build friendships. There’s a paper called \"The Tyranny of Tyranny\" that talks about how we anarchists think about how to overcome the tyranny of structurelessness." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Feel free to follow the g0v news, g0v.news, that reports all the civic tech things. I think they still relate me very positively because I get more people who are in the public service to join the civic tech movement wearing two hats, sometimes pseudonymously, sometimes -- they don’t care -- in their real name." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve been very able to reverse recruit public service into the g0v movement. This idea is a policy. It is a regulation, a procurement framework, and also a national Participation Officer Network directive. It is all three sides." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, collective intelligence, how do we do in Africa? For example, you can use the tool that we use, like Sandstorm. The Sandstorm tool that we use is cybersecurity audited, entirely open source, and you can rest ensure that when you’re using Sandstorm, whatever app you’re running in it, even though it may contain backdoors or whatever, it is still secure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sandstorm has been one of our core tools to operate within intranets, where the Internet connection and intranet exchange points has been closely watched, and BGP, hijacking, or SSL forgery is rampant. You can still run, essentially, intranet using Sandstorm tools. That has been very useful in occupies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, the cultural/political advantage of Taiwan is that we’re really new in this. When I was six years old, Taiwan was still under Martial law and dictatorship. We’re really the first generation [laughs] that can do democracy, and that coincides with the arrival of the Worldwide Web." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t have 200 year of proud, Republican tradition. It’s all new to us so it’s easier for us to mix and match things together. The name is Sandstorm, sand as in the sandbox, and storm as in taking something by storm. If you go to sandstorm.io, which I’m sharing with you now, you see the digital tools, which is open source platform, self-hosting Web apps." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s audited by Taiwan’s cybersecurity department, as well as by various other white hat hackers. Feel free to use that. If you put a app on the Sandstorm app marketplace, I thank you on behalf of the Taiwan public service because we’re going to use the app that you design." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you very much for joining in this Q&A session." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Audrey, thank you so much. A very good use of your time. That was a really, really civic engagement. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Thank you, everybody. I think we are on time. I really thought that was a fascinating range of issues and challenging items for us. I think about new places of possibilities now." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "It’s a really extraordinary thing. Taiwan is a small country and, as Audrey said, a new democracy. I think Audrey seems to take all of these as positives, as opportunities. Sometimes, we describe landscapes where we only see obstacles." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "It’s interesting what they have done and the borders that she is crossing. That also I think is really interesting when we think about our discussions yesterday of national treasury, local government. These are really, really inspiring and interesting engagements in many ways." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Thank you, Audrey. That was a really, really interesting talk. We look forward to hearing more about what you’re doing in the future. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you, and have a good local time. Thank you for the questions. Great questions." }, { "speaker": "Indra de Lanerolle", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Today, the getting together have two purpose. The first purpose actually, the two interpreters are for the Tuesday talk, interpreting simultaneously. They were quite worried about if they can understand all the language that you speak." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re going to build a lexicon, a glossary for them. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Fine. Hopefully, it will not be as difficult as you imagine, so it will be fine." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The three museums, as the director, Sharleen." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s not a physical director. Tzu-Hsiu and Waverly are coordinating the whole production for the Venice Biennale." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "They want to join a bit to also understand how the talk will be about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like, \"What’s all this about?\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The second part would be that Paul would like to have more of an interview with you, which will combine with the talk we would have on Tuesday once we have a transcript of that. Maybe she can already also do some more in-depth interview tonight, and that would serve for the catalog publication." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "What I’m proposing is that maybe we use one hour to talk about what we don’t talk about on Tuesday. Maybe we talk a bit whatever, and then they can try to see if they can grasp everything. I say, for this first hour, they can interrupt if they don’t understand what we are going to talk about. Maybe, if necessary, we can also do a rehearsal of the simultaneous translation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Then you will maybe..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This will be simultaneous translation." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah, but maybe we can do a bit of rehearsal just for them so they understand. Me and Audrey, who knows the language, we could say, \"Oh, this certain word is totally out of the way.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Pretty much, we should do this maybe for an hour. After the first hour, they can all leave, and then you can do the interview in English." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have to leave. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There will be a transcript for everyone..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I think is if all of us speak for one hour, then this will be already quite a long time. Maybe it’s better to do it for 40 minutes, the first part, and then go into..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s fine. That’s what I mean because we have two hours." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Still, we will be recording the whole thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re putting the whole thing for the..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...for everyone who leaves in middle." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Eventually, it will be editing what we say." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just fine. We’ll all have plenty of time to edit." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "As far as Tuesday’s topic’s concerned, I want to be more the moderator." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Of course, I would introduce you and introduce Paul and where you all come from, but then I wouldn’t really totally join the conversation in a certain way. I would probably play the role more like a moderator. Of course, at any point I feel I can contribute, I will come in and all that. OK?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t have to really have anything to do with this, only spiritually, right?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly. The problem with this project right from the beginning will be because of the prison, because of Casanova. We got into this idea of really study the crimes that related to sex and gender and all that. At one point, we probably would call a sex show deviant, but we prefer not to use this word anymore as applies to deviants. It’s still about more like people are incarcerated because of some sort of sexual crimes." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Sex, gender, and sexuality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...experiencing the incarceration of deviants?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "People that are considered deviants by different political regimes, in different times and cultures." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Because this is the beginning point of this whole project, because of the location or Prigioni being a prison, and because, before we start doing the research, Casanova was incarcerated there. That bring up this whole topic." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The other thing I want to say, because I have done work with panopticon in terms of panopticon as the 17th-century prison structure, and then today’s all-around, all about everywhere in the city, everywhere the facial recognition camera, the whole prison in China hosting 20 million, these kind of situations." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I wanting to bring up the project not to limit it in the panopticon or in the prison of Prigioni, but extend it into the whole society. Also, that was mostly data panopticon. We have come out with terms like data panopticon or sexopticon, [laughs] these kind of words. Sexopticon, we’ll see if they can translate this one." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe we don’t need so much of a translation for that. It’s just the idea of the state surveilling or watching not just traditional data of a citizen, but also sex, sexuality, and gender. When sexuality and gender become the data..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It doesn’t have to be the government or the state. It can also be corporations are abstracting from different technologies. These become a whole amount of data that is being used, able to control all of...just for, they say, marketing purposes. The issue of what is controlled today is also something that will come up in the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "At the end of the two streams of this discussion is \"What is freedom today?\" and, \"Is it possible to act politically in a society that is fully watched by all kinds of technologies?\" This is the point when Shu Lea started to talk to me about you. It’s here, as well, that I found your interview on the Internet a long time ago." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Suddenly, we thought that it was quite interesting the way you are using technology precisely as a way of enhancing agency or political action instead of as an instrument of surveillance, for instance. This is one of the questions that I would have for you." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "To cut in again, exactly. Yes, this particular talk started out from the work, the exhibition itself. It’s really bring up much more issue, and particularly not to only focus on the sex issue, but more all kind of regime, political, social, agency." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That, I think, had to be made clear right from the beginning. We are not really particularly talking about the artwork. Rather, during the press conference, we would introduce the art, the installation, and the film." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That will be in the morning." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah, but because she..." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "I will be there." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You will be there translating as well." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Just so you know that this conversation..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That will be great because, in a sense, in the morning, you will have a more in-detail idea of what the point is about. This is not exactly what we are speaking about in the afternoon. What I think is interesting is the way in which Shu Lea, to be able to make this artwork, wants to put different people in dialogue." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, in this case, I guess that is quite unusual and interesting that suddenly, since almost hosting us in dialogue, she becomes the one that is asking questions to us. Instead of us asking questions to her, we are..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah, being lazy." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No, that’s quite interesting that you will be asking questions to us. This is also, I think, quite interesting for people to think, \"What is the role of the artist today?\" Basically, when people are speaking about political art, how art can be political, maybe social, about bringing different people in conversation that are not in conversation usually because of different reasons." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Audrey, since you are at the government, maybe we can also speak about that. For us, it’s quite difficult to understand how someone like you that is coming from activism or..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hacktivism." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "...hacktivism, techno-anarchism, or something like that can end up being in the government and having a ministry. Maybe this is something that most people in Taiwan already know, but for us, this is quite unusual." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Political intervention from the artist in the capacity of a host to further the conversation about political action in today’s panoptic state and/or corporation-controlled data panopticon." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the stage you will open with," }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we’ll just talk?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe then you will start asking questions." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I would probably organize it better, but it’s basically why. Particularly in the course, I would say with you I actually knew you as a hacker, 2011. We also know each other since around 2000..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "’2 or something." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Actually, 2001." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "2001." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe it’s almost the same time." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s almost the same time. From that perspective, it’s very interesting to connect you two." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "There is the issue of how we both relate to technology or different technologies, both cybernetic technologies, but also hormones or other kinds of technologies, gender technologies, let’s say." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Gender tech." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly, and gender hacking maybe more. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How many concepts do we use?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly. I think during today’s conversation, we should probably narrow down a few topics." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We’ll have to decide." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s why today is so relaxing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Otherwise, they will be translating \"hacking\" into five different words. That will create a strain." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Hacktivism, you understand." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Is there a translation for that?" }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "Hacktivism, 駭客行動主義." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That is one other thing though. In Taiwan, we do distinguish a little bit creative, non-cybersecurity hacking, which we call 黑客 as in 黑客松, and cybersecurity-based hacking, which we call 駭客. Even in tonal pronunciation, choice of words, there already is a old jargon file, like white-hat, black-hat on one hand, and maybe Red Hat on the other. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very different connotation of hacking. Just by deciding to translate it as 駭客, which would actually mean breaking into the political system or 黑客, which would mean bringing creative energy to the political system, that’s already making a choice." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s quite interesting. This distinction doesn’t exist English, as such." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Eric Raymond tried to use hacker/cracker distinction..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think that’s why the hacktivism, more of the word hacker." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes, hacktivism, but it’s still..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. We’ve been wrestling with these translation issues for decades. I just want to, as a professional translator, [laughter] highlight these distinctions." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This will probably be difficult for me because my computer knowledge, my computer technique and everything, I learn in the West. I actually had no connection with the development here. Until now, I cannot type Chinese on the computer. It probably would take me..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we will be going to converse in English." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It would probably take me a couple days. This is the thing. A lot of the vocabulary in English I would not know how to translate into Chinese. For example, it took me a while to understand what is data in Chinese." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a term for numeric data, which is 數據 and for more textual, all-encompassing data, which is 資料. Looking at these two, one is about numeracy and one is about literacy. You talk about 數據, numeracy, or you talk about 資料, literacy. Again, these two are not mixed." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Wow, interesting. In your case, did you study cyber-technologies in the West or here in China, in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I learned it from the hackers that I meet online." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You did it online?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My education is entirely on the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Entirely by yourself?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "By Internet." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Completely by Internet?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Since I was 12, and then completely when I was 14 when I dropped out of junior high." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s a boast that she never studied abroad." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, I helped digitizing a lot of books." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You consider the Internet..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...as sovereign." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In which language was that learning being done?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "TCP/IP, and..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s a different language altogether." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The laws of the Internet, the request for comments, they are, of course, written in English. It’s written in RFC English, which is not exactly English. It has very interesting connotations like SHOULD, MAY, MUST, MOST NOT, that are clearly defined." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Their use of the word \"consensus\" doesn’t mean what the English users mean by \"consensus\", and so on. It is a very particular jargon in the Internet community. That’s my native language." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How do you see the relationship between the Internet and, on one side, state policies, but also institutions, for instance, traditional institutions? Basically, that’s why, when we were thinking about the discussion in a few days, I was talking about democracy and transition." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I thought about using gender transitioning as a trope to think what is happening with democracy. It is not just going from point A to B. It’s a full different ground and a full different language that is also opposing traditional institutions, like this school, the university, and the family." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That’s why I’m asking how do you see the Internet relating to all of that. For instance, you refused the university." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I didn’t refuse their website. I wrote to the researchers. We did a project together." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I understand, but, for instance, you step out of school and you decided to teach yourself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I worked with researchers at lots of universities." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Still, let’s say that the platform that you’re creating or that you’re working on doesn’t fully coincide with a traditional university." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean with its exclusive membership status?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I guess. I transitioned from a exclusive model to inclusive model. You can say that, but you can’t say I reject university. I learn most things from universities. Otherwise, it’s from CERN, which is not university, but a research facility. These are state institutions, and I’m not rejecting their existence. I’m just engaging them in a way that is non-exclusive of our relationships." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, you’re not criticizing by itself the knowledge regime of the traditional universities?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I publish, but on open-access journals. I edit, I do conferences, steering committees as well. I participate in the traditional academic activities but always only if it’s a open-access regime, meaning that it doesn’t reject further people from contributing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My core reading when I was 13 years old was Project Gutenberg, which you may have heard of. It is a bunch of people just typing everything -- because there was no good OCR technology back then -- that’s in the public domain to the public Internet for everybody, including me, to read." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because the Project Gutenberg has a interesting interaction with the copyright law, which keeps getting extended to protect a certain mouse. What happened was that, when I was around 13, which is 1994, I only get to read everything that’s written before the First World War." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everything that’s written at or after the First World War was not public domain, so Project Gutenberg cannot operate on that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "So you would only read everything that was written before?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can only read Marx or Freud, but not their students." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Something that is like... yeah, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can’t read, for example, The Decline of the West or other despairing works because these are written after the First World War. That brings me unnatural optimism, because the World Wars were not on my the reading list." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What is most radical for you in your way of approaching both the same technologies and society is the Internet as such, or not?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the \"inter-\" part of the Internet. We had the networking. It’s the \"inter-\" part that is radical. By radical, I mean at the root." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Sorry, go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No, go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I was going to say it’s going very well. Maybe I should revise myself about this first part, second part..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think it’s going to be like that." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "So we continue, \"Please, welcome to stay.\" At the same time, I know it’s very hard. It’s so exciting so it’s very hard to cut you, so I’m just cutting once here, now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As the host. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "As the moderator." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "On the contrary." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s so exciting, but I was wondering how would the interpreter want to do? I know that you’re here for a purpose. I was just wondering if, a certain point, you want us to break. For example, this is one point I want to ask you so far, how we feel about the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK by my interpreter. I’ll be highlighting the word \"transitioning\" and questioning translation for that. The inter- part of the Internet, which is 網際, I guess, but I don’t know how you’re going to tackle..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "All that is quite easy to translate, I guess, or it’s quite obvious." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "We have Chinese equivalents for these." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "\"Transitioning\" or \"transition\" is the same word when it’s being used, for instance, for a trans person, that for something else?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How are you going to translate somebody that’s transitioning gender-wise in a democracy?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Gender-wise, basically that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In democracy, we usually say 轉型." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "Gender-wise, it’s going to be different, it’s not 轉型." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In gender, we usually say transgender, 跨性別 or something like that. Of course, you can always translate it as 過渡..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What that one mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That rhymes with overabundance (過度), a homonym. I don’t know how you’re going to reconcile the two translation." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What would be the closest word in English for transitioning in relation to gender? It’s changing or something like that?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "改變?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, transgender, trans here is translated as 跨, meaning like a bridge carries over from one side to the other. It’s used to, for example, transdimensional, trans-whatever. When you have trans-whatever, you use 跨. On the other hand, we never say 跨民主. It’s unheard of, actually." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think, as the moderator, I would like now to sum up the first point. I think it is a very interesting point now. Basically, the title for the talk is called \"Democracy in Transition.\" At the same time, we are quickly getting to gender in transition, including, as you say, technology, the gender hacking, including the drug-using, the hormone." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Paul wrote a book called \"Testo Junkie.\" For us, it’s a very classic, very important book, for example. I feel this is definitely a very interesting topic to start talking about hacktivism in both sense. It’s just a matter of how we can get it to here today, which seems so easy. You just get into, just recognize this would be one of the big topic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we do the easy shortcut thing, which is very cliché by now, but in Taiwan, the body politic is translated as 政治體. If we connect that to the body politics, 身體政治, then all the bodyhacking analogies carries over to 政體-hacking analogies." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Meaning like body politics, you say like..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The polity, 政體." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Paul just did this big public program at Documenta last year. It was in Athens and in a castle. It’s called \"The Parliament of Bodies,\" so parliament. When I first read his work, I was like, \"Wow, what the...\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Parliament just means to hang out and talk a lot, parler." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In Europe, it has this connotation of being the political structure that is the base for the constitution of a society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but its root is just parley. It’s just to talk." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The root of the word is to talk, but in reality, the idea is that those who are allowed to speak are those that have..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Speakers." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly, that have access to the technologies of power." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So, exclusive right, through speakers." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes, but what does it mean to speak? This is exactly what you were talking about before when you were saying programming is another way of speaking. It’s like, \"What language are you speaking?\" The issue is what is the language of today’s parliament. It might be programming or it might be Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be code. It could be data." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. It can be data, it can be code..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just text." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "...it can be chemical." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think just to point out exactly, in your program, when you did the whole public program for how many months?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Two months, 150 programs." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That keep hogging public conversation. I was very happy to see exactly it’s not only limited to gender bodies. It’s actually bring up all the..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s more like bringing together support and counter-cultures that are traditionally not represented precisely within the traditional parliament, somehow putting question even what acting politically means." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, how do we represent in a traditional parliament the sick? Let’s take the case of a transsexual. Just to say that if you’re a transsexual, you have to declare yourself mentally ill, from that point on, in a sense, you’re losing your agency. You’re delegating to the state." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "As soon as you say, \"I’m gender dysphoric, so therefore I’m sick,\" somehow, in order to be able to have access to the technologies of gender that I need to become who I think that I am, then I have to accept that I do not have full agency of myself and that the state will grant me this agency through a certain therapy." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This, in the case of transgender people, now is getting better, but it can be worse than that. In the case of people in prison, for instance, have no access at all to any technology of power, any technology of subject production, any technology of knowledge, not to speak about the Internet or whatever. This is another big subject. For instance, what happens with the people in jail that have absolutely no access to the Internet? Do they live in the same world that we live? Maybe not." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, it’s more about, in this sense, a kind of transversal alliance between different movements that cannot just be reduced to identity politics. This can be a further conversation, Audrey, in the sense of, for instance, if you see yourself as a part of an identity movement or not at all." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How do you see, for instance, the Internet, or the hacktivist movement as a movement that precisely might be one of the first historically political movements that go beyond identity? It’s not about being man or woman. It’s not about being from a nation. It’s not about being from a particular race." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It is not defined by identity but is defined by having access to a particular technology, a particular language, code, data, or something like that. I don’t know. This is more a question that I have. You have to understand, Audrey, that my field of expertise is really gender technologies, much more than..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, sure, but we can just talk about gender technology." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No, what I mean is that, for me, what is interesting is getting to understand better how you work with the Internet. How do you see the Internet? This is a field that is, for me, is less known than other technologies, even though, of course, I work with it all the time." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I don’t have the same relationship to the Internet that you do. I would be interested to know, why do you think the Internet is so crucial? How do you see it as a political field of action differently than other fields?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So far, so good?" }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "It would be helpful if you guys slowed down a bit, because it’s going to be simultaneous interpretation, and our sentence structures are different." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes, I know we’ve been quite..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "They’re so excited." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s OK. I can very easily adjust my speaking speed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To get back to your question, I recently had a talk with Jaromil." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "[laughs] Yes, I saw that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You saw our talk? We were super excited." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I know Jeremy also a long time. He was also part of the Kingdom of Piracy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, part of the appropriation of technology or appropriate technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just had an interview, which I suggest the interpreter to also consult after this meeting. It outlines most of the core ideas that your question would entail." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will read out part of it because it’s more precise this way, but that was really spontaneous. Jaromil interviews me and I’ve introduced myself as a poetician who writes poems. That’s my main mode of operation. It’s my main mode of working with the cabinet, but not for the cabinet." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "As a poetician?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a poet." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Really as a poet? That’s the way you see yourself, as a poet?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Politician as a poet?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A poetician. It doesn’t work like that so I don’t how you’re going to translate that, 政詩工作者 or something." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "政治詩人." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, 政治詩人, a poetician." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I joined the cabinet, there were three compact that I agreed with the premier. First is that it’s all voluntary association, meaning I don’t take orders. I don’t give any orders. I write poems. That’s all. That’s the first thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The second thing is location independence. I can be here at the Social Innovation Lab. I can be over there at the C-Lab. I can be anywhere in the world and still considered in work, so location independence." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Sorry to ask, but what do you mean by writing poems?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Literally, writing poems. I can read you one of my poem right now, which is my job description. I think it will..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "[laughs] OK." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "You read it in the street?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. If I’m going to talk with several ministries, of course, I will say, \"Oh, as digital minister, I’m working on the Sustainable Development Goals, which the entire United Nations agreed, by year 2030, we’re going to solve those 17 very important problems of humanity and society and environment together.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My particular area of expertise is, in 17.18, making sure everybody can trust each other. In terms of data, 17.17, making it possible to trust across nations and across sectors, and 17.6, which is to earn this trust through open innovation instead of patents and copyrighting exclusivity of colonizing technology. That will be understood by pretty much any ministry in the world." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Do you see each of these statements, let’s say, as a poem?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, I wrote a poem to explain those sustainable goal targets... and it goes like this:" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see the Internet of Things, let’s make it an Internet of Beings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever we hear that the singularity is near, let us always remember, the Plurality is here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s one of the types of the poem that I write to translate the Sustainable Goals into something that are self-contained, that are memetic, that spreads without my further intervention. That’s the kind of work I do as a poetician." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, it’s not limited to linear poetry. I also, for example, write this kind of spatial poetry, like short snippets of words. In the middle are our core values. On the second, the yellow ones are the projects that people voluntarily do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, the outside is the artifacts of radical transparency, which is my third working term, meaning that everything I see must be published to the Internet for everyone to see. The green ones are what people actually see in terms of radical transparency process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That, I also consider poetic because these are self-contained, very small limits of Post-It notes, and you have to fit ideas on it. Although it’s not strictly linear, if you connect a few of those arrows, you get a poem kind of automatically, so I also consider it poetic work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Back to Jaromil. Jaromil says that I remind him of Birgitta of Icelandic Pirate Party, also a poet, a politician, and also anarchist. Yes, that’s the other poetician anarchist that I’m aware of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Jaromil runs a observatory, AlgoSov.org, a think tank -- obviously a do tank also -- about how to own the code that runs people’s lives, which is what he means by algorithmic sovereignty. He asked me pretty much the same question you just asked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I said, \"I’m going to say code, but when I say code, please think algorithm.\" I’m saying, in cyberspace, which is another word for Internet, code determine what can happen, what cannot happen, what is transparent, what is opaque. It is the normativity, but it’s not textual. It’s more like physics because, within the space, you cannot violate the physics law." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is always possible to violate a textual by interpretation. They are legal by design, and the impact is shifting from a negotiating boundary of textual normativity to a pre-set boundary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The pre-set boundary, which is the code, can be agreed by social norms of co-creation. Then it has a positive impact because it reinforces what society is saying as important. Or it’s set by the few people, maybe the speakers you just mentioned, which will a negative social impact because it essentially precludes, forecloses possibilities. That is the impact that Internet has." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Jaromil, of course, questions my use of the word \"code.\" He thinks code, like text, is very boilerplate. He thinks algorithm is at the core. Why do I say \"code?\" I said, \"Because code and text are both one syllable. When I say texts, it rhymes with physics very easily, but when I say algorithm, it only rhymes with anarchism.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "[laughs] Which is not valid." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a poetic choice, text and code are both far easier to rhyme than algorithm. When I say code, think algorithm. What affects people is the manifestation of the algorithm, which is the code. They are two. In the spirit it’s algorithm, in flesh it is code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Jaromil said, \"OK, so it’s like law? In the spirit, it’s law. In the flesh, it’s text?\" I say, \"Yes, like other spiritual beings, like logos.\" Jaromil says, \"Law experts are watching us and they can understand the nuance.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I said, \"The legal hermeneutic evolved from the biblical hermeneutics, so they totally understand because it’s the same hermeneutic system.\" I said, \"That’s it.\" I then emphasized I’m non-partisan and forking the democracy. That’s my core vocabulary I’m talking about that you have on the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Now, I’m getting to understand that you defined yourself as an artist in reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "OK. Before, I was thinking about you more as a politician, but now I see you more as an artist." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this space, which we co-create, I would stay it’s speculative design. It’s not quite art. If it’s art, it also has the negative side and shows what’s impossible, what’s impenetrable, what’s suffering, what’s painful. You don’t see those elements in our Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s artsy, I guess. I focus on the positive part of art energy, which we call speculative or futuristic design, but I don’t think it’s quite the entirety of art." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I really liked the idea of thinking about poetry, of what you do as poetry. I think it’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And defines..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Totally, but still I don’t really see quite well how this can be part of a government action. This is what, for me, is difficult. Of course, I see you more in a sense, like undoing the code, undoing the law, or rewriting the law somehow." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The government might not be so interested that anyone is precisely doing that so why would be you called as part of the government? I have difficulties, but maybe it’s because I don’t know example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The parliament didn’t invite us in. We totally invited ourselves in. That was in 2014. That’s what actually happened. The MPs were on strike. They refused to deliberate substantially about the particular agreement, the CSSTA, so people just invited themselves to do the job of the speakers speaking there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m like one petal in the sunflower, help facilitating and capturing, live-streaming, and translating the 20 or so different NGOs, each deliberating one side of CSSTA. It’s a demonstration, but it’s a demo in the software sense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This was also speculative design. You can also say it’s art if you want, but it’s basically a demonstration that shows it’s possible actually to radically involve half a million people and have a real conversation and have the conversation be binding." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Basically, all the people that you gathered, let’s say, even it was through the Internet..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, about half a million people on the street and more online. The precise number, we don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "All of them were part of NGOs or not?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. The topics, the aspects were set by maybe 20 NGOs. One talks about human rights. One talks about labor. One talks about environment, the usual suspects. Then, they each have a booth among the streets that surrounded the parliament because people cross-pollinated between the different coalitions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s also one part, actually Lucifer Hung was there talking about their view of the CSSTA, which is very enlightening." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Each view actually draws its crowd, but crowd are not exclusive to any view. Our way is just to make sure any deliberation that happens offline gets live-streamed online, that there could be no censorship of people’s talk, that people can watch freely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, we watched actually the Occupy Parliament. It is a panopticon that’s watched from every corner. It’s sousveillance, as Steve Mann would say, everybody watch through their phone, and we arrange for people even with hearing difficulties to see a textual transcript, real-time transcript of what’s being talked about in the parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a large art installation..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...their rights for 22 days, except it produced five consensus points that are binding to the Parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To answer very quickly, I guess people didn’t invite us. We just went there and installed art." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "After this period, now you’ve been working with this government for last three years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the end of 2014, all the occupiers, neutral parties...There were three neutral parties in the Occupy. We, the communication people, under the branding of g0v, G-0-V, the pro-bono lawyers, which protected the text-based normativity, and I’m sure also the doctors that are medical that takes care of people’s bodies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The body part, the text-based normative, the rights part, and the code part are those three neutral parties. We protected anyone, including the White Justice, which is the counter-protest protest, and the other..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Why the medical? I couldn’t understand why." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There was a bunch of pro-bono medical doctors that are just wearing their professional posters and making sure that it’s as non-violent as possible. During those 22 days in the Occupy Parliamentarian site, there’s no one missing, no one dead. Very light injured in parliament side. I’m not talking about accidents. That’s the doctors’ work. We also had physical therapists and psychologists." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You think that after these 22 days of occupation there were changes?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People became aware that, \"It’s actually possible. If we just talk through things, it’s possible to reach some kind of agreement.\" By end of 2014, all the three neutrals were invited by the cabinet as reverse mentors. The idea is every minister would receive a reverse mentor, who would train them in the art of massive listening." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How has been that experience? After these, let’s say, three years and a half of mentoring?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will be four years actually." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Four years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The four years has been pretty nice. I worked with the career public service, built workshops and designed co-creation workshops with over 1,000 people before I joined as a minister. As the understudy, I trained maybe 1,000 people. We have code and data. We don’t have to rely on human error." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "After I become the digital minister, I talked with 3,000 people in also 159,000 speeches, every single of which radically transparent. People generally are happy with this idea of knowing the why of policymaking, not just the what of policies. Knowing the professionalism that is the public service, not just the political rhetoric of the ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Knowing how they can sign signatures and after 5,000 signatures get the right to start co-creating with a dedicated team of what we call Participation Officers, of which we have the team in every ministry now. Such as that protesting at the tax filing is explosively hostile. I think that’s the right translation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This particular petitioner, Cho Chih-Yuan, gets to then work with the ministerial stakeholders and do some user journey design and co-create this year’s tax filing system, which I think has 96 percent approval rating and is delivered on a budget of a negative number, save us a lot of cost." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have maybe 40 or so cases like this, 20 of which really do decisive actions and collective actions like that. The other 20, not always like that. We have 8,000 people petition Taiwan to change its time zone to GMT+9. 8,000 petitioned to have it remained at GMT+8." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We invite those guys together to co-create common values, which is not a compromise, which will be done in half an hour forward that will satisfy nobody. It’s actually to get to the shared value, which was that people want Taiwan to be seen as more unique in the world. That is something that both sides can agree. You can read about it in our blog post, \"Do not play the fake ball\", meaning that they cite a lot of reasons for time zone change like it would save energy, increase tourism, things like that. Each ministry came up with data that shows it will be a larger one-time cost. It will be a non-trivial recurring cost, and so on. They treated them very, very seriously about this time zone change." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s only after we get every fact, you get everybody’s feelings. Everybody, regardless of whether they are pro or con, actually just want Taiwan to be seen as more unique. If we have such recurring cost, maybe we can use our culture, our open government, our Sustainable Goals, things like that, which will get more international coverage than dialing the time zone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That would just get us one day of international news. There’re many countries with different currencies and different time zones. It doesn’t really change the identity that much. Even the petitioners who are pro the change ended up agreeing with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like the Occupy Parliament people of different ideologies and different insights, eventually, after being exposed into a set space, where they can only add to it without taking away, they see these divisive things, which they define themselves with, are just one fraction. They have far more in common than they originally thought about. That is the kind of space that we’re creating. That’s it." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yeah. What I see is like a methodology that you made, in a sense proposing a methodology for a cooperation. Are there issues in terms of content that you were fighting for in particular?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No? It’s just you’re bringing forward this methodology?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just like the Internet protocol. The Internet protocol is not fighting against AT&T, Telex, or any other existing protocols. It just shows them how to connect together and have basically the end-to-end people determining the methodology of communication, rather than have the middle person or midpoints, gateways determining the routing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s really the only thing that defines that unit, which is what we call the end-to-end principle, or innovation without permission. That is the thing that I’m bringing to governance. I don’t really care about the particular content the people care about, which is why the e-petition or referendum, we should care about how referendum plays out later tonight." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, people care, which is why they bring out their political..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In a sense, you don’t mind who’s winning tonight? You don’t care?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, I mind if it’s tampered. I mind if it’s not a fair election. I mind if it’s a cybersecurity incident, but if everything is safe, free, and democratic, I’m fine with any result." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Interesting. [laughs] I have to think about it. In a sense, in the West, when we are within that radical left tradition, we’re more used to work in a kind of antagonistic politics. We’re always fighting for something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I support you in that -- whatever you’re fighting for." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’ve got my support." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I know, but you cannot support two people that are fighting for opposite..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can. We can." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You can?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course. That’s our core mechanism, actually. That’s the picture you’re painting, which is the porn picture of trade-offs. Basically, the one side with the better organizers, which is the most, with the raise, which is the midpoint, the line which is the career public service, voting, or whatever other institution you have there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Better organizer with a better agenda that elicits a bigger dog. \"More people wins\" is the traditional Taiwanese stakeholder view of trade-offs. I would argue that it is a broken model because people don’t need organizers anymore. They just need hashtags. With the right hashtag, you organize tens of thousands of people." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "At the end, what you’re promoting is the end of the Parliament as we know it and the end of parties as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just proposing a collaborative space where people can maybe take some trade-offs there, enjoy the geometry here, and maybe come up with some synergies. If they don’t, oh well, nothing lost. If they do, then the synergies replace the trade-off space." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What would you do then with the actual political system in terms of parties and the whole thing? What would you do with it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Taiwanese cabinet system is very peculiar because we are all political appointees. We don’t have constituents. We have 34 vertical ministers in their ministries and 8 horizontal ministers, me being one of them, that are purely coordinators." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the cabinet, there’s more people who are non-partisan, people who are independents, than people of any particular party, so it’s more balanced, and it’s been true for a while. People generally see the administration, the Executive Yuan, which proposed the draft version of the bills, as more neutral to party politics than the Parliament." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once you reach the Parliament, of course, the parties start their conversation there but based on a draft bill proposed by the administration. That is totally different from the French, UK, or the US system." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Then what do you do with very controversial issues? I’m thinking more about the Western politics that I know better than Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Issues that are now splitting not just countries and polities, but everyone, including within the feminist movement, queer movement, or whatever, like issues that had to do with migration, how could you deal with that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Be really precise, like what does migration..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Let’s say that in Europe now you have a very strong policy in most parties claiming for closing the border fully to migrants. What would you do in relation? This is a question for me to get to understand the methodology, how you’re working, as opposed to traditional antagonistic politics that I’m used to do myself." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How could you react to that? What are the policies in Taiwan in relation to migration?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just passed the Foreign Talent Act, and the new immigration act is in the works. We’re considering to open up more, [laughs] so it’s the other way around now. The rhetoric is not...I think that’s because Taiwan really is an island. There’s no natural way for people to become refugees. People have to be really intentional to be refugees like hijacking planes. We all remember that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The political definition, that means the border of the polity is more geographic in nature. When I say Taiwan, I always mean the geographic feature. I would say Taiwan started forming four million years ago. Taiwan’s culture starts spreading for thousands of years ago of the Austronesian tradition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would also say that back in the ice age, Taiwan was part with Mainland. It’s a archipelago shape now for hundreds of thousands of years. When I say Taiwan, I always mean the geographic feature. That includes the inhabitants, of course, of biosphere. I happen to think that we’re just stewards here, \"we\" meaning the human species." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan has other species before, and we’ll have other species in the future. We’re just safeguarding it. That’s my ecopolitics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The immigration policy in Taiwan would be dealt with in a much more instrumentalist version of a debate rather than a ethnic or a nationalistic version of the debate, simply because the natural border requires so much intention to travel." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now the topic that we’re handing in terms of immigration, it used to be our immigrants, before they’re fully naturalized, they’re maybe permanent residents, but they’re a numbering system, which we can talk about, which is part of institution. It’s still not the same as the Taiwan citizen’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As Taiwanese citizens, we may have ID numbers..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...something like that, just making it up. As a foreign person, even permanent residents, your ARC number is going to look something like that. It is very different. People can see the difference." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because one is the number and one is the letter on the second ledger, it’s very hard for people with permanent resident or temporary residence certificates to get maybe movie tickets, railway tickets, or things like that just because when they ask, they’re asked for a national ID number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Their ID won’t fit the system. It’s a code-based normativity that excludes people psychologically, even if they are permanent residents already. Their nationality, their passport is still not issued by the effective jurisdiction in Taiwan -- which, of course, is the \"Republic of China\". [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you don’t have the right passport, you get this second-class citizen numbering. We just announced that we’re fixing that. Starting next year or so, you’re going to have a new number if you’re a permanent resident or something like this. There will be a one-to-one mapping on this. It would be the numbers seven, eight, and nine." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It can be visually distinguished that your gender is still encoded in the second number. The seven, eight, and nine are for nonbinary male and female, respectively. It will look just like, on the shape of it, the form of the national ID number. You’d be able to get tickets and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It shows a more inclusive approach, and it’s not controversial at all. There’s no controversy about it." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "If I understand well, what you’re doing is translating discussions about nationality, gender, sexuality, whatever, identity into code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, code based on the code." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can talk about it in our talk. In this speed, the interpreters are of course not having sufficient time. We’re essentially rehearsing here." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "As a moderator..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. Maybe you have questions for us." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "You are speaking too fast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m still speaking too fast. We should still slow down." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "For me, no break for the last 15 minutes almost. It was a very continuous talk. I can see that the thoughts are varied. Particularly for me just now, it was really amazing to understand the political situation and your position in it. For us now, it’s great for Paul and I to really understand the situation in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "For the purpose of the talk on Tuesday, how could we sort out what would be the key point for the last 15, 20 minutes of introduction to Taiwan and Paul’s try to break in, making a parallel analysis from the Western point of view? I think that would be the key point." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Just to sum up, I think the first part of conversation is clear for me, like democracy in transition, gender in transition. We talk about body politic, the body including political body and all that. That’s clear." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The second part I think actually start with, what can I moderate? The second part is really started out with Paul asking the question of access to technology, then for Audrey to say Internet is really the tools and the goal where we all innovate." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I was also thinking about the conclusion of Jaromil’s interview with you, to use the word \"fork,\" \"forking a democracy.\" Of course, \"forking\" is a very key word in programmer’s terms, in terms of how do we fork. It’s almost like everybody can take apart and fork it, like branches, and you kind of take apart." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This is exactly the way Audrey is talking about the government management. It’s almost like..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fork and merge, and fork, and merge." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly. As to another key part for me when almost insisting on using the word algorithm and code. I do feel that algorithm itself imply certain calculations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "\"Code,\" for me, it’s almost like a written code. You cannot change it unless you want..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Code of Hammurabi. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly. \"Code\" is like..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s already beyond your access." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s a structured language. However, algorithm imply that you are constantly modifying. It’s not even modifying, you are constantly calculating, even automatically, because the whole world runs itself with the various algorithms." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Algorithms, for me, also imply the randomness in some degree. By randomness, I also mean there could be some accident or chances happen that’s unexpected. Rather than code, which is actually more like a role-binding, rules-binding kind of thing." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "For me, it’s important that we take these two words as a way to talk about, in a bigger sense, what’s that mean. I think maybe during the 20-second talk, we would not get into the whole introduction of running the government per se." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This is totally for understanding, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, it was important to get to understand." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s why I want to rely on your help now. From what I can gather just the last 20 minutes of conversation, I would say we do have the key word here. How do we make it another big topic to get into?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How do we segue?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "How do we segue from the transition into the concept of forking. It’s exactly..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you’re transitioning, you’re not really going back. When you’re forking, it’s always with the intention of merging back. That is core difference between those two words." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "If you would speak more about forking democracy, about that part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, we can start saying \"transition into democracy,\" because that is a fact. Taiwan was under military rule. We’re no longer under military rule. We’re not going back. That is transition by any definition. On that, we are similar." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "When I was saying \"transition\" in myself, I was thinking both about a change of paradigm, which is not just like moving from point 1 to point B, but something is shifting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like phase change, water into air." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. I think that this relates to the question of the code and the algorithm. I somehow like the way you spoke about the code. You were saying that you are like writing poems. I think this interesting because placing yourself in the position of \"the artist in relation to the algorithm\" is quite interesting." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I find interesting is that, for instance, Audrey’s not saying, \"I’m a scientist.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, not at all. I’m at most a designer. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. This is something that is common with me. For instance, I opposed science as precisely that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Unless you’re Paul Feyerabend, which I’m fine with. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. If I understand you well, and to answer Shu Lea with the question of the code, the idea here is that the code can always be rewritten. It has to be constantly and collectively rewritten." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Therefore, opposing the idea that the code is the law, that you can only do it when you say that you’re an artist, if you say that you’re a full politician or you’re a full scientist, then you put yourself on the side of the law, on the side of the already written finalized code, and then nothing can be done." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that what Audrey’s trying to say is, \"No, the code has to be constantly rewritten.\" For me, this has also to do with both forking and transitioning. For instance, in the case of gender transitioning, it’s not just like going from female into male, or male into female, but putting into question the gender binary, for instance, or the sexual regime." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Something similar is happening when you are saying it’s not just about like these two people, \"Who is right and who is wrong?\" but something else. Out of these cooperations, something..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe a new digit for non-binary." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is both by law, because we really are changing the law to allow that, but it is also by code, because the code also has to recognize that. It is also by spirit, because then it frees people from binary thinking. This is why we have four restrooms in the social innovation lab." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, that’s quite interesting, the position of the artist in relation to that, as opposed to the scientist, the physician, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I would want to bring up another two keywords, would be the cryptology an encryption in the sense of when speaking of codes and in the sense of cryptology. I think it somehow should be brought in. I am hoping from this -- if we start talking about cryptology and encryption -- from this, then we can talk about a kind of resistance of surveillance system, if it’s possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "What would be the certain kind of...from a very passive being observed, to taking action? Just now, even listening to you saying you invite yourself in, you’re doing the Occupy Parliament by the way you invite yourself in, in a way it become, \"How do you become that active agent?\"" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The thought, the title of the piece is called \"3x3x6.\" It referred to the nine-meter^2, six-surveillance-camera prison cell, which is quite common. Yesterday, we were actually in Chiayi visiting the prison. It’s even smaller than nine-meter^2, while it’s housing for the night, that’s probably what?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Eight people or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Six-meter." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Six-meter, the one that we saw yesterday. Yeah, six-meter for eight people." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s probably more like a six-meter space, and it’s housing eight people. We went to visit the Chiayi Museum of the prison. This is totally pre-digital surveillance camera, but then they have the thing called catwalk on top of the ceiling that actually can have the cattle, the guardian. You can look down on the prisoners." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I was just saying I think we need cryptology, encryption, particularly with a lot of cypher..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Cypherpunks?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah, cypherpunk, rather than cyberpunk, for example." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow, that brings me back." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "[laughs]." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People are just saying crypto now. They say, \"Oh, we’re in the crypto scene.\"" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s after Satoshi, but it used to be called cypherpunks." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly. I call my film, the last film I did in 2007, I call it a cypherpunk film." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now people just say \"blockchain\". [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly. We’re now getting there. I thought it was funny that you are talking to Jaromil without mention this particular area that he is a very specialist in. How could we go from this the few things I mention to get into the...the third part would be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Salvation." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "...the kind of all-in-presence surveillance. Even for the Venice Biennale work, when Paul and I first talk about this project, we talk about, \"If we are creating the same surveillance system in the installation, are we then just kind of remodel the government apparatus?\" or, \"What are we doing that would kind of show a certain kind of revolt or the resistance?\"" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That would be maybe the final part we want to come to in this conversation, which would help me sort a lot of issues that, as an artist, I really want to work out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have an idea who will get to the control room and reprogram everything?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "For the artist, it’s more like, \"How do we make it so that there is no touchpad?\" [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "There is a point that we were speaking about today with your designers, which was revealing how..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The processing." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes, revealing how the surveillance system works and giving access to those technologies. This is something that you were doing in your work, which is basically about transparency, what Audrey is always talking about." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Is it the process?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Which is the opposite that both the market and sometimes art are really concealing these surveillance technologies. You don’t have to see them. What you’re doing is really unpacking them and revealing them, exposing them." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, this is already a way of giving access to those technologies, just show how they work. You’re not asking, \"What is freedom?\" but, \"How can you use it?\" right?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Instead of saying, like the big question in philosophy, \"What is freedom? Am I free?\" what you’re saying is, \"Forget about this question. The question is how can I access certain technologies that would allow for me to re-appropriate this for that and become active within that context?\" This is how I see both works quite related to each other." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "When we started working, one of the issues that we had in mind that has been present in my work before, is how, because of this change of paradigm that has to do with the Internet, in order for a body to become the subject of control in politics, the body had to be located within a particular architecture, architecture of the school, architecture of the domestic space, the factory, or the prison." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You had to be physically surveilled in a certain architecture. What is happening through the invention of the Internet is precisely that this architecture is dematerialize. The technology of surveillance is installed within you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What do you mean, dematerialize? Like people implanting chips in Sweden?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, I haven’t studied that, in relation to hormones and how basically the invention of the pill in the 1950s changed completely the relationship between sexuality and reproduction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In a sense, basically to break this relationship. Let’s say the traditional idea heterosexuality, this connection between sexuality and reproduction, is broken, but not through a physical way of controlling someone, but just with a chemical pill." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "One of the things that I’m doing in my work is relating these miniaturization of technologies with..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But it’s miniature. It’s not dematerialized. These are its materials." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In this case, yes. It’s not dematerialized in the sense of..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Invisible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Gone into the ether." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No, when I say dematerialize, it’s like saying that it takes a different form. It goes from architecture into chemical technology or that you go from architecture into electronics." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a form change." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. This change is not just accidental. It’s a change in quality. Basically, this is quite clear in with the prisons that we see today. The prisoner is constructed through the physical constraint of his body within a particular building." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Today maybe, or even in the future, we might be thinking about a prison that has to do with just like having a chip underneath your skin or even like you like a pill forever, and that’s it. [laughs] You take a pill that will go into your system and will modify you genetically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say it’s manifest in different materials. The genetic change is harder to defend now because it’s very hard to imagine, like you said, that that will..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I’ve seen that the coding that you were speaking about, for instance, when you were speaking about entering within the code and transforming the legislation or the administration codes so you can change the A for the B." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that the risky point of that is that, eventually, this recoding will happen within the body as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What’s wrong with that?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I’m not saying that it’s wrong or right yet. We don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You said dangerous." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Danger in the sense that...You have to understand, Audrey, you have a very Utopian..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of Project Gutenberg, I don’t know about world wars. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Gutenberg being quite important here. Of course, we’re in the, let’s say, Republic of China, So access to coding is not equal for everyone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The same access to technologies of knowledge is not equal to everyone." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I understand that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "These might be less present for you because you’re here, but now in Europe, we have the highest political crisis regarding what is happening with the migrants that are coming..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m aware of that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "...and the refugees." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Those politics have what I call and Achille Mbembe, Foucault, and other people call necropolitics. The relationship that certain technologies have to bodies is a relation of giving death. Basically, abolishing the code [laughs] altogether, not rewriting the code but really writing you out of the code. This has to be taken into account because this is..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is what Saskia Sassen called the expulsion?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In a sense, yes, if you want, but more extreme than that. This is what colonialism is at the extreme. It’s basically taking you fully outside of the code or rewriting your code, rewriting your grammar." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I’m speaking is that, I love your message..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...it’s what humans have done to other animals." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. That’s the thing." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The thing is that, historically, this is the technology of power that we know better. What you’re fighting for and what Jaromil is fighting for, because he’s doing it by similar work than the one that you, but with the city, for instance, it’s precisely like inventing a different technology of power that is not related to death but is related to cooperation." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I’m speaking about is that the contemporary situation, at least in the West -- in the East, I apologize myself because I don’t know it so well -- where we see it is a coming back of fascism. Fascism, in a sense, is the envision to foreclose the code and write people out of the code fully." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I read a tweet just yesterday that says, “Let the fear of \"letting fear dictate your life\" dictate your life.”" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Fear dictates one’s life in the politic you talk about, so let the fear of that dictate [laughs] and you can be not part of the problem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we see formulations like this, obviously, the fear of death has been organized in political discourse. I see that. I’m not oblivious to that. It just doesn’t harm me." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I fully agree with you in everything that you said. I’m just saying that sometimes, for instance, you work with two opponents that you bring into dialogue or cooperation, but sometimes..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t work out..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...in spite of this." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "One of them is not willing..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the circle of life. [laughs] We tried, c’est la vie. Any medical practitioner will say the same." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That is something that, for me, is quite interesting in the sense of those that are radically secluded from having access to the technologies of entering within the algorithm or being able to write their own algorithm." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, when working on the project of... Let’s say different people are in prison for different reasons. Most of them are completely outside not for life, all of them, but most of them are completely outside of any possibility of accessing any kind of technology. Of course, not all technologies, because they are able to study in prison." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Not to say that I’m very Utopian as well. Utopia is almost like a pathology in my case." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "[laughter]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Just because I’m discussing with you in this case, I’m..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree that the form change is not always liberating. I, of course, reject, as you do, the neoliberalist rhetoric that any progress is good progress. Nobody here agrees on that particular ideology. We don’t really need a straw man, and I don’t think our audience will agree on that either." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now we do away with the \"progress is almost always good\" rhetoric -- because nobody here really believes that -- We can instead say that there is going to be a manifest form change. We see one very recently with the rise, as you said, in the West about the weaponization of social and public media to re-instill the fear of death and the reinstallation of national rhetoric." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are neutral terms that we would agree on here in our office, but then we can expose the optics. That’s going to be the third part that should be said. My core thesis has always been that the optics of social media and other mechanisms let us zoom in so much on the divisive statements that we’ve lost the sight that we have much more in common with our neighbors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is also something that is felt kind of in a gut way here because the election has just passed. Although no overt cybersecurity action that I’m aware of, there are, of course, a lot of misinformation/disinformation campaigns that try to sow discord, making people seem more divisive than they actually are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s natural in election campaigns. Our one that just passed is actually OK in terms of the divisiveness. What I’m saying is that it goes naturally with representational democracy. You’re going to have divisive of rhetoric the week before the election. It’s just part of the course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We just had one so we’re in for a collective healing period two days afterward. What I’m saying is that our intervention is going to be predicated on the fact that people are re-feeling that they have more in common with each other than they would have belived when they walked into the voting booth 40 hour ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In terms of group dynamics, that will be our intervention time to say, first, there are certain optical mechanisms in terms of social media, in terms of political rhetoric, that makes people seem more divided ethnically, gender-wise, or however, than it actually is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The optics has a way, through a manifestation of code and memes, to widen the gap, to widen the division. If we fully expose the optics as they are, it builds a inoculation. What is inoculation if not a fully exposed, lighter version of a virus? If we get that version into our minds and make peace with it, we become immunized against polarized discussions in the future." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s why I call it vaccines of the mind. If we call those politically divisive memes a virus of the mind, then I would call this vaccine of the mind. It’s just by exposing the optics. That would be our third part that should set the stage." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s funny that we’re speaking about all these things while the election is being decided fully." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It shows we’re true artists." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s quite a thing." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "So funny. How do you see the translation issue? Do you think we will be fine? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. We should reserve a half an hour for your focus." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We did the opposite. We’ve been talking..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is their editing." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I know. I came in, I say, \"Wow, that’s 12 days?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We rehearse already. Is there any particular words you would like to talk about?" }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "I’m not sure about the forking and without permission." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a fork in democracy, like 分支." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "I think your talk is quite interesting. I can imagine that you might say something different." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "I guess we can only go with the flow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, we have the transcript." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The transcript will be performative theatrics. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think it’s going to be it’s already done because this conversation already happened. We will pick it up from here and develop it." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "I think it will be fine. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "These are the kind of words that we will be using." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The words will be spoken slower." }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "Slower." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We’ll speak slowly then." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. The institution and the Internet, Internet’s going to be 網際網路. Institution is going to be what, 建制?" }, { "speaker": "Interpreter", "speech": "體制." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just 體制, right? I think that works better anyway, because 身體, 政體 and so on, it’s all the same word." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think the role of the moderator is important here." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The what?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Your role is important. Because of the very nature of both of us, we can totally go into crazy things and speak without thinking that we’ll have to go back to the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think I should become a comedian if I break into..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You are already a comedian so you don’t need to become one..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think it’s quite important that, through asking questions and maybe also catching us, interrupting us when you think that we might be going for too long." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I want to start. Audrey, I think you’re going to have to scribble on the pad. I can’t see how you can talk without scribble on the pad. We can project..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That’s super nice." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s what I mean. In the beginning, we will show a poster or whatever is the event about. Then we can get into..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The scribbling." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "...the scribble as a keyword thing. I won’t worry so much about projecting anything in particular, but just a quick scribbling. I look at this conversation as almost like a thought processing more than anything else. Of course, I do feel at some point...Maybe it’s only tonight." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I feel like I don’t want to break the stream of thought in a way, but maybe it’s true. Maybe during the public conversation, I will need to break in a little bit more, maybe more like opposed as to break up a bit and also to question." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "There’s so much cross-referencing in this talk right now. How are we going to catch up with all this? From my point of view as an artist, and why I’m not working in Taiwan, is particularly I don’t feel the artists in Taiwan work on this aspect of more political agenda or body politics in that sense." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "We are always like, as far as I see, people say, \"Oh, you are an artist of technology. You use technology or media art,\" or whatever. They try to put me into that, \"Oh, you’re an artist of technology.\" I will like, \"Yes, but I use technology for certain purpose.\" It’s for me just as the tools." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It doesn’t matter which technology I’m using. I am still talking about the subject matter I concerned about. I think that’s a difference. I could never be an artist of technology per se. I think these kind of conversations would be so powerful and useful to understand where we all coming from and really reflection here." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s really quite in-depth and also, of course, referencing. I think maybe, at some point, Paul, you should probably get into all of your introduction. I think tonight we are all curious to understand Audrey." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe we have to do that through questions. Otherwise, it’s quite strange." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You have a brief earlier in the day, right? The audience will be overlapping partly?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It will probably be not the same audience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at all?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s not going to be the same." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The morning will be for the press." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In the morning, we will speak just about the pavilion." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "We are really hoping... How many people registered now?" }, { "speaker": "Tzu-Hsiu Su", "speech": "245." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For the afternoon talk?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "How big is auditorium?" }, { "speaker": "Tzu-Hsiu Su", "speech": "300." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s pretty good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll have 300 people." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "We definitely will have 300 so that’s pretty good." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That’s why maybe you have to ask some questions, as a way of introducing both of us with your questions." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Of course, Audrey is completely well-known here." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yes, exactly. The question I want to bring up, coming from your own experiences hosting all these talks, with you more like in our context, the body of Parliament thing within our context. You did bring in also various thinkers. Philosopher, refugees, political activists, all these are coming in." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think this background is also very important. One thing we’ve been fighting for is not to be confined, that we are only doing gender politics. It’s like, \"Yes.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I feel like it’s political intervention, so you want to frame this as a political..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The question, as well, is what is today to be an artist? What is today if I define myself as a philosopher? I’ve been studying the tradition of philosophy but what is the philosophy today? What does it mean to be a philosopher today?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s very close to be a poet, to be an artist, in reality. When you’re working with philosophy, what you’re doing is breaking the code as well. When I speak myself about opening up the pill, basically understanding the technologies that are constituting us." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The way we define ourselves is quite interesting as well, for instance why Audrey is defining herself as a poet. This is so specific and interesting as a position. Even beyond gender, Audrey defining herself as Audrey or myself [laughs] as Paul, which is already..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "...breaking the code in a sense, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I do think that if I introduce the topic of the non-binary digit in the national ID that will be a focal point because it’s genuinely new for..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That also shows what the time zone people were really like to petition for it. It really positions Taiwan as the only place in our region that can even think -- let alone regulate -- something like that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You’re asking for a non-binary, meaning like male, female, and other?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just non-binary." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "A bit more like gender..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "There are many different models. For instance, the Argentinean model is you have male, female, and other, zero." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re having male, female, non-binary, and then nationals and foreigns." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Myself, I would be fighting for just not gender assignment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. If everybody chose to use the non-binary digit, the old digits disappear." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I know, but beyond that, basically what I’m refusing is the government or the state to define your gender or define who you are or your status as a subject with a body through gender. Even beyond..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying this regulation is a solution to your struggle. I’m saying that it’s a sign of truce. It’s at least a peaceful gesture. That’s all I’m saying." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "How about the self-assigned X from birth if you don’t feel..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Just being assigned X?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Mmm." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Do we consider then having a mark when you’re being born, the religion, on your identity card? Is that a possibility? No, we consider that an act of discrimination. For me, assigning gender at the moment of birth, I consider that an act of discrimination. That’s how I see it." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It doesn’t matter if it’s female, male, other, or multiple, or X, or anything. The state has nothing to do with gender. As soon as gender is defined, you have precisely a technology of power that is basically acting upon the body, whatever it is." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, if you have male, female, and other, or male, female, and X, of course, immediately you will have a device and a series of apparatuses of the state surveillance treating differently, the X, the zero, and so on. Eventually, if you have a right-wing government, as might be the case now in Europe and many places..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "You’re marked." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "...of course, you will have a different treatment for those that have X or zero. What I’m saying myself is that this should be no gender being assigned by birth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just highlighting the fact that this was introduced a couple days ago. Alongside introducing a non-binary digit, the National Development Council is also proposing maybe that we remove the field which is currently called 性別, but translated as \"sex\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is really weird... that’s not the official image. It’s the winner of the design contest. We had a crowd-sourced design contest, and that’s the winner. It looks super simple. That’s not the final design. That’s just one of the winning themes, featuring the translation of \"性別/sex\"." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now the National Development Council is saying, maybe we remove that altogether..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Altogether?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...from on the card, it’s gone." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That should be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Again, I’m not saying this is a solution. This obviously just makes it less apparent. In the national database, of course, there’s still a gender field that is male, female, or non-binary. It’s just not showing it overtly in your face... it’s an improvement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can still, of course, look at the ID and from the second digit somehow distinguish between the possibilities, but that will take mental work. It’s not a mark, as you said." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I understand that. For me, the problem, and I think it’s in the whole discussion, one thing is the code as a technology of inscription, like administration. Another thing are the social and political technologies that are constituting on making possible the code itself. Those are the ones that have to be changed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Otherwise, we might change the code. I agree with you. This will introduce already a little change, a friction within the code but are the technologies of inscription itself that have to be changed..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, these are not solutions. These are just statements that enable more solutions." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Do you understand?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That is different if we say, for instance, these technologies that start from the moment that someone is pregnant, then you go into the doctor or whatever, and they immediately will tell you \"you’re going to have a child and this child will be a girl or a boy.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "From that point on, there is a whole set of techniques of recognition -- precisely all those that you’re working with, the visual recognition, photographies. All of those have to do with how a human, how a body recognized as a human in a given society and accepted as part of the society." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We are thinking about being male or female, but it could also be being trisomic, for instance. How would you say that? Maybe I’m not saying this correctly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "三染色體." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes, trisomic. Basically, it’s a genetic modification that causes what until now has called basically a deficiency, that allowed people to basically get into abortion, and just get rid of the fetus. Therefore, this body will not be considered human altogether." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that even before we get into writing the code or the technologies that...and it’s an epistemology. They are the technologies allowed for a certain body to be recognized as human. Of course, then you see maybe the action of the philosopher, the politician, and the poet are different levels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Interesting fact. The Social Innovation Lab’s geometry is contributed by people with Down syndrome, which is also a trisomic difference. It turns out their geometric intuition is better than we are. As a poet, I’m, of course, doing OK with code and text, but my geometric intutition is far behind them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They contribute to geometry of the Social Innovation Lab. We have a foundation called 喜憨兒基金會, the Children Are Us Foundation, that’s been working with people with Down’s syndrome for over 20 years. They really cultivate their geometric contribution to the society." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they’re aborted, of course, we wouldn’t have this space shaped like this. It’s entirely orthogonal, that’s what I’m saying. If people are not born with this trisomic difference, we would not be able to perceive the world in such a geometric language." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "For Tuesday, how long we have? From 2:00 to...?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "[laughs] It is the joke, how long do we have?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I know, because this schedule is... 2:00 to 4:00?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We should let time for the people to participate and ask questions." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "30 minutes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think we can switch to Slido as soon as there’s interesting questions from Slido." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe Shu Lea will moderate that change?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Shu Lea, you have to [laughs] moderate that." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I’m not using, you’re using the Slido." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am, but you’ll be looking at that..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I would say, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We’ll have questions from the audience that will be on here?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "All the time already." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We already have some of those questions so you will be receiving them on real time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you have a phone or something, you can see it on your own phone. Otherwise, we can also project. It looks like this. I’ll just give you an example because I used this..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Because it will be in Chinese?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, it’s not necessarily Chinese. We can also translate. It’s amenable to Google Translate. In the Civic Tech Innovation Forum, which was in Johannesburg, which I attended yesterday through a hologram or something like that, it just looks like this. I’m just showing you the shape." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will be a code where people can join. It will be a place where the top-voted ones can be highlighted. If Shu Lea prefers to highlight something else, you just say that, and then I will take care highlighting that particular one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people’s interventions will keep come in from the bottom, the latest questions. We can take heed of them. We can ignore that. It’s our choice. They will be having a constant dialogue among the 300 people, also, while we were having a dialogue." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is useful because if you, at the beginning of two hour, take their phones to this web page, all the manufactured addictions of pressing \"like\" will be channeled into Slido. They will not switch to Facebook or other places to press like because of manufactured addiction." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They will just channel the spirit to our talk by liking each other’s questions and writing more questions. It’s a way to get people more concentrated because two hours is very long. By the 40th minute or so, people just start swiping Facebook. That’s one of the way to get people off Facebook." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Then we speak about technology. In this case, because we are in a auditorium, I think the screen’s showing the whole scribbles of yours on the back is better because it really presents certain keywords like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I wonder if we should add.." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A slide projector?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "...another monitor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do we have two projectors, do you know?" }, { "speaker": "Tzu-Hsiu Su", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What would you like it for, the other one?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The questions?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For the questions? OK." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Yes, or maybe we just do double projection." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "How long is your scribbles?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll connect my iPad through a Apple TV, a HDMI, a VGA..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "How about we just do the split screen if we can’t have two projections with that? It’s not possible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, they said we can have two projectors." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "So we split the screen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t have to split the screen. We can show a question on one and my scribbles on the other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People can see both of them." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Both will be on the big screen, then?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Oh, it’s actually two separate screens." }, { "speaker": "Tzu-Hsiu Su", "speech": "There are two separate screens." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s two screen." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That’s fine, then. I think, in this case, I should probably, with my phone, until they have this URL, and I would do the highlighting from my phone to be projected." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, of course." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "However, does it matter? How would I be? Should I use also a iPad, then?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you have a phone, you will look like this. Just a second. Let me quickly simulate the view." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "In terms of highlighting, who can highlight?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can highlight any." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Anybody can highlight?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, only moderators can, and I’ll work with them to make sure that you do. The idea, very simply, is here. You see a list of questions, and you can highlight just by clicking highlight. You can censor them just by clicking archive. There were be two button next to each question, and that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can censor them by clicking archive. There will be two button next to each question, and that’s it. There’s no need to use anything other than a phone. If you prefer a tablet, of course, it’s easier. For me, tablet allows for a view of more question at the same time, but it’s up to you. You essentially see a list of live questions." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Someone would need to provide me with a pad, then. I think the pad is better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can bring you an iPad." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Another one?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Then, we’ll do that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You will see it like this." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Of course, then it’s better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll figure out two things. First, who will need a laptop or a computer to connect to one screen. That’ll give you the run of the projection. It’ll keep showing that in a browser. It’s not hard. It’s a website you open in the browser like Firefox and Chrome. When you see full screen, click full screen, and that’s it. It’s as simple as that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other one, we will project from my scribbles somehow. I will work with your technicians. The easiest may be I bring a very long HDMI line. All professional wireless technicians prefer the wires, but if the wire is not possible, then we will use Apple TV or Google TV." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will bring you an iPad." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Then that’s great because that will be best." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s all from me." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are seven minutes to two hours. We were very precise." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yeah. Now, you can have a look and see who won the elections." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, maybe not..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Can you already?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Not yet? Oh, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not yet. Ko Wen-je is still tied with Ting Shou-chung... They are still tied." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, let this be the end of this transcript." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常高興，能夠在這邊看到大家，這邊是社會創新實驗中心，仁愛路三段99號，因為剛拿到這個門牌，還是要講一下，這邊也是我的辦公室，所以其實我每個禮拜三從早上10點到晚上10點都在這邊，以後每一天都開到半夜10點，包含假日，所以歡迎常常來逛，我們今天的共識營其實是非常輕鬆、非常正式交流的格式，雖然run down說只到7點，但是大家待到11點也不會怎麼樣，這個是第一個要講的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，這一次很高興在青年署幕僚單位的協助之下，我們正式在11月1日邁入第二屆，特別感謝，這個整個都是第一屆青年委員促成的，我們在第一屆上任的時候，跟之前青顧團的性質、層級都不一樣，也有過這樣的聚會，這樣子則是青諮第一屆、第二屆的性質一樣，希望能夠讓新上任的委員可以更快速瞭解青諮會的運作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且很多青諮委員運作快結束的時候，甚至最後一年或者是半年才瞭解到公部門哪一些按鈕要怎麼按，才得出需要的結果來，因此讓大家快速上手，一下子就可以進入政府這個機器裡面，幫助大家來擔任響導的角色，這個部分稍候會請敬峰來引導，因此4點的時候敬峰會主持那個部分，希望大家都可以充分交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，第一屆有很好的基礎，但是第一屆對於他們的運作方式有一些想法，所以在跟青發署確認之後，羅處長跟青年同仁很辛苦擬了第二屆加強版的運作原則，這個原則我今天早上也跟行政院長賴清德院長願意留下來幫忙繼續確認，理論上他是召集人，我是副召集人，所以我們就會用了第一屆想了新方式聽大家的意見，這個部分等一下幕僚會簡報，而這個簡報大家也可以盡可能給我們一些意見或想法或回饋看是不是可行，如果可行的話，我們在正式大會裡面，我們就會跟院長講說我們接下來會用這個run，包含走入地方、巡迴跟在地的夥伴提報、協作及交流，像剛剛有一位朋友對於內政部合團司有興趣，我們就可以對這個議題開始一些拜訪，這個都是一開始在第一屆沒有想到，但是中間想到，中間才開始進行，我們會一開始就進行這一些部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "相信有大家協作、集思廣益，第二屆可以發光發熱，甚至像第一屆的網站是到禮拜三才做出來，我看一下網站有一大半的委員上去上傳頭像，這個是非常高興，如果預設頭像的話，就可以花一點時間弄一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們預定跟大家自我介紹之後，跟幕僚單位報告，報告之後就會中場休息一下，第一屆的委員可以分享，這個時間完全沒有結構，就當作開放的空間，愛怎麼聊就怎麼聊，有具體想法的話，都可以透過青諮會的機制來提案跟新增，我們就交給第二屆的委員們，我想要用傳麥克風的方式，拿到麥克風的人看要坐著講或者是站起來都可以，下一個是誰就拿麥克風的人決定，我想也不那麼正式，同時給第一屆、第二屆的委員李欣委員。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "大家好，我是李欣，誠如剛剛政委所說，其實我同時也是第一屆的委員，很榮幸可以來，其實我在最後一次也有提了一些建議，希望第二屆可以更順利接上，也可以做我能力所及並幫助這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我目前是大學生，我現在是三年級，我今年休學，出來一年就來探索生涯，像我自己有興趣的是性別、教育這幾個議題，之後也歡迎一起討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "大家好，我是韓定芳，我是青少年表演藝術聯盟團長，我們十八年來透過表演藝術陪伴青少年成長的創新藝術組織，我自己是已經十年了，我們主要服務的對象是從國中到大學這一塊，針對不同年齡層、不同領域、不同狀況的青少年，我們會用不同的表演藝術陪伴的方式來跟他們相處，進到高關懷學校，舉辦全國青少年戲劇節，我們會邀請很多不同的師資進來，我們希望每一個人都可以拿自己有的會的，陪伴青少年成長，這個是我們一直以來持續在做的事，很開心可以認識大家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "大家好，我叫彭仁鴻，來自宜蘭頭城，我目前其實在做的事是有關於社區營造跟地方創生相關的議題，我主要的場域是在宜蘭的頭城老街，目前是以頭城的老鎮長為實驗場域，每一年都會透過老街來挖掘在地的事由作為平台。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "這個是我們正在努力持續當中的，如果對於類似像地方創生或者是社區營造，又或者是EMO，也就是類似像目的地行銷組織有興趣的話，都可以歡迎多多參加，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "大家好，我是博士生鐘偉庭，我的專長是火災、防火跟避難還有一些隧道模擬或者是一些大型建築物模擬，希望我的專長能夠協助到大家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "大家好，我是希慈，我認識在場五個人，我自己有三個興趣，一個是教育就是跟青年有關的事情，另外一個是旅行，接著是社會議題，這三個是我個人的興趣，也是我現在的工作，所以我自己有一個機構叫做「國際城市浪人育成協會」，我們做的事情是帶領青年解決各式各樣的問題，包含社會問題、自我心理成長的問題，所以就到處跑來跑去想辦法解決自己跟外面的問題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "大家好，我是曾廣芝，大家可以叫我的暱稱小工，我現在就讀臺北醫學大學傷害防治學研究所碩士班。大學時是公衛系畢業，所以主要有興趣的議題還是在健康衛生方面。另外我現在同時也是臺北市青年事務委員會的委員，所以如果大家有想要跟臺北市碰撞、討論的，可以再一起交流一下。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "大家好，我叫做葉智文。我比較專注的議題是在現在政府想要推動社會住宅的議題，像這一年是社會住宅、包租代管的計畫，第一年的試辦現在要進入第二年，我們在中間投入非常多，在六都裡面我們有參與到台北、新北、桃園及高雄四都的推動，所以我想說在我們執行面上，其實有非常多具體的建議，不管是住宅政策裡面每一個環節的角色，他們考量跟想要什麼，我想我們大概都很希望能夠跟行政院、內政部反饋的一些建議，如果對於住宅政策有相關的興趣，不管是青年住宅、社會住宅，或者是包租代管的部分，或許都可以跟大家有機會多多交流，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "大家好，我叫洪梓容，我的中文名字比較難發音，大家可以叫我英文名字Mandy。我自己目前是任職於生技公司當副理，其實我之前是在科技部跟台北市政府的創業輔導單位，我自己有加入一個協會，叫做「臺灣矽谷創業家協會」，我們希望把臺灣的團隊帶到矽谷去，不只是矽谷，甚至是國際各個地方，如果大家有相關的資源想要一起合作的話，歡迎大家來找我，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "大家好，不好意思，我遲到了，我是Impact Hub的陳昱築，可以叫我Rich，Impact Hub是一個國際的創新組織，我們在全世界有100個以上的實體據點，在台北的據點是2015年正式成立的，我們比較專長是在社會創新跟私部門企業社會責任的策略規劃與執行，另外一個是國際參與這一塊，我們也是透過Impact Hub這一個平台讓臺灣被世界看見，所以這一件事，我們跟每一個合作夥伴都是利害關係人，所以我們都會很努力想要讓臺灣被世界看見，這個是最大的使命，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "大家好，我是何明原，大家可以叫我Denny，主要有兩個產業，一個是傳統工業，所以是工總青年委員會第二屆的教育長，另外一塊是我們自己的商業進出口的部分，因為主業是酒，因為酒的關係，我的照片是想要放一張拿著酒杯的照片，看起來滿帥的，但是怕忘了放警語、標語被罰錢，所以還是先維持框框的預設頭像就好了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "另外一個是，目前學校當講師，所以這一塊是我另外一個關心的部分，一個是創業，商業發展的部分，當然還有一塊是教育，謝謝大家指教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "大家好，我是吳君薇，可以唸二聲、也可以唸一聲，我自己主要是在新竹，我的組織是叫做「見域工作室」，我們在新竹為基地，出版了一本地方誌，叫做「貢丸湯」，是串聯在地組織的平台，所以我做的事情包含了社區營造、地方創生，最近研究的一些領域，主要是青年團體在經營在地旅遊這一個部分，其實面臨到一些法規的問題，希望之後在青年諮詢委員會裡面可以有一些機會提出反映。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "大家好，我叫家豪，我是泰雅族的，剛剛遇到幾個朋友說不太像，我是純種的，我爸爸、媽媽、阿公、阿媽都是。我在新北成立一個資訊行銷的合作社，過去學的都是資訊，但是我過去成立的組織是合作社，現在大家都滿知道的，過去因為政府機關知道，但是可能實際有在協助的部分比較少一些，所以自己在兩、三年成立了一個聯盟，我現在在聯盟當執行長，聯盟大概有15至20個合作社是有在營運的，像有很多合作社是沒有在營運的，因為過去做資訊，所以現在我一直關心的是原住民地區文化的發展，因此跟觀光有一些關係，本身是做這樣的項目，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "講了很多，發現都滿類似的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "潘苾祈", "speech": "大家好，我是目前就讀臺灣大學森林環境暨資源學系一年級的潘苾祈，我比較熟悉的議題是客家文化，對環保議題也相當感興趣，也希望未來能夠在能力所及的範圍內多多服務，請大家多多指教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "今天是第二屆青年諮詢委員共識營，出席委員們已經自我介紹完畢，但是今天也有許多工作人員出席，以後委員們應該會常接到青年署的電話或用email、表單方式與大家聯絡，詢問委員有沒有空、能否出席？我介紹一下，青年署(幕僚單位)淑美科員、兒娟，希望未來兩年合作、相處愉快。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "署長臨時於立法院有要事，由王副署長代表出席，還有公共參與組陳組長愛珠。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "除了青年署，另外還有其他二個很重要的幕僚單位一定要跟大家介紹。今天唐政委辦公室來了非常多的同仁，要自我介紹嗎？或者是揮手就好了？" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "你是主持人。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "那傳一下麥克風。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們辦公室是這樣，我沒有指揮誰，從每一個部會可以調一個人，如果調超過一個人，秘書長會有意見，所以理論上辦公室會有三十四個部會的同仁，但是目前是有二十二個同仁，有一些是從部會，有一些是從各個地方來加入我們，我們給他們的要求是跨部會要大家知道彼此做什麼之外，就是不要叫我長官，所以目前大家都習慣了，沒有人叫我長官，叫我長官，我會當作沒有聽到，因為考績都是自己打，真的沒有誰指揮誰，想到什麼idea自己做，大部分是叫我「au」，也就是Audrey前兩個字，所以希望以後大家儘量不要叫我副召集人，如果這樣叫我的話，我會假裝沒有聽見。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "先從唐政委先開始。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我叫au。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "大家好，我是貢丸，我現在在唐政委辦公室，本職在文化部，跟大家在一起最大的使命是協助大家達成想要做的事，像君薇如果找不到貢丸湯的話，可以找我，很高興可以認識大家，希望大家以後有很多的機會，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "大家好，我是政委辦公室參事葉寧，我本職在NCC，其實我很久沒有參加青諮的會議，有新的開始，覺得可以洗心革面一下，所以今天來跟大家見面，非常謝謝大家來，也希望以後有機會跟大家多交流，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王少芸", "speech": "大家好，我是王少芸，我是政委辦公室的成員之一，我的本職是在教育部青發署，在綜合及生涯規劃組，其實11月才剛調過來，很高興今天來參加聚會，希望到時大家可以互相協助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "魏守斌", "speech": "大家好，我是政委辦公室諮議魏守斌，本職在國道公路警察局，今天是第二屆新的開始，我希望可以洗心革面、重新做人，之後大家需要協助、交流的部分，可以儘管找我，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "莊清寶", "speech": "大家好，我叫莊清寶，我是行政院教育科學文化處的科長。我們這個處的角色，主要就是承上啟下，例如會議紀錄或是一般公文等，在教育部簽陳至本院以後，本處就會幫忙檢視文書內容是否妥適並視需要提供修正建議；另外，如果青諮會有一些相關會議的安排，本處也會幫忙看一下有沒有什麼地方需要調整，所以，基本上就是輔助功能的角色比較多一些。" }, { "speaker": "莊清寶", "speech": "如果各位在聯絡部會上有困難的話，除了可透過教育部青年署聯繫以外，因為本院各業務處與各部會之間也都有密切的互動，所以如果有一些需要幫忙協調聯繫的，我們這邊也可以幫忙聯繫處理；但如果是涉及政策決定的部分，主要還是回歸到唐政委與唐政委辦公室這邊。" }, { "speaker": "莊清寶", "speech": "本處的全名叫做「行政院教育科學文化處」，以前的名稱叫「行政院第六組」，主要處理教育部、科技部、文化部等部會報院之相關業務。我們院內的分工有一些複雜，但不論如何，只要公文送到行政院，其實都會有人處理，以上說明，請大家參考，謝謝大家！" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "如同莊科長講的，教科文處肩負許多溝通、協調的工作，其實滿困難的。我們剛剛忘掉唐辦還有一個非常強大、很厲害的人。各位必須知道，你們現在講的每一句話都會有速錄師幫忙各位把它記錄下來，其實這個非常好。我們以前早期在做會議紀錄，可能三天才做得出來，但是現在Wendy可以把今天大家講的話，在隔天就整理出來，而且是逐字，所以一定要大家介紹Wendy。" }, { "speaker": "Wendy", "speech": "大家好，我是雅婷，也可以叫我Wendy，目前在唐政委辦公室協助相關的紀錄，今天會前來參與活動除了紀錄之外，也希望能與青諮委員多一些交流，希望在接下來兩年的時間內，可以有更進一步的交流。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "不好意思，我剛剛去文化部，所以比較晚到。大家好，我叫做林筱菁，我來自台南，因為現在台南七股在做食魚教育的推廣，讓大家認識養殖漁業的食育教育，瞭解課程與活動，很高興認識大家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "還有沒有人想特別講什麼？如果沒有的話，接下來就是主持人的時間了。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "今天非常高興藉由這樣的場合跟大家認識，說實在話，第一屆二十五位青年委員好像也沒有合體完成，大家都會陸陸續續一起參加許多活動。像今天總共來了十五位委員，在未來的場合，委員們會有機會不斷認識許多夥伴。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "之前有委員問我，怎麼會打電話給他，問他要不要當青諮委員？有些委員事先完全不知道為何會被推薦成青諮委員，也有委員說不瞭解青諮會要做什麼，擔心自己只是學生，可能幫不上什麼忙。青諮會就是希望廣納不同青年的意見，所以不管是學生或是社會人士，大家的專長與熟悉領域不同，希望透過這樣的組合，協助政府不管是政策或執行上，提出建言，把你們所看到的提供給我們部會參考，我們有機會來作調整，希望共同讓這整個環境做得更好。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "接下來要跟各位作青諮會運作的介紹，第一屆青諮會運作兩年後，感謝第一屆委員給我們意見，也希望調整及增加一些機制，落實青諮會的功能。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "今天簡報大綱，將分別就簡介、成果及運作方法逐一說明。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "大家可以看到青諮會設置，緣起是希望可以讓年輕人有公共參與的管道，可以參加或瞭解政府政策形成的過程，這也是蔡總統的青年政策。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "任務部分，希望青諮委員們可以協助蒐集及反映意見，讓大家對於關心公共議題，將年輕人的意見適時導入，並提供建議，促進青年公共參與。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "青諮委員組成總共有三十位，青年委員在第一屆跟第二屆都來自於部會推薦，因此相信各位委員過去或多或少都有參加政府相關計畫或是有一些接觸，政府部門認為各位在自己的領域上表現非常優秀，所以推薦參加青諮會，經過召集人（院長）圈選後，最後核定二十五個青年委員。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "其他五名政府部門代表部分，院長為召集人、唐政委為副召集人(之一)外，另外教育部部長另兼任執行長，勞動部部長與經濟部部長為部會代表，而未來在第一次大會即將要選出一名副召集人，委員們等等可以運用交流機會多看清楚大家的名牌、彼此認識。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "有委員問說當副召會不會很累？主要是在會前會一起主持會議，或者協助聯繫或溝通一些重要事情。等等第一屆副召敬峰會來，大家或許可以跟他交換意見。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "第二屆從107年11月1日正式開始，二年一任，未來在定期會議部分，以每四個月開一次會為原則，這是原則，未來要看提案情形，委員們的時間，才會敲定。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "會前會的部分其實很重要，過去開會，大會由院長主持，委員們覺得提案後好像無法與部會做細節性的瞭解，所以第一屆自第五次會議開始，擴大召開會前會。會前會由二位副召集人主持，邀請部會代表與委員，先行透過與部會面對面就執行面充分溝通與討論，可以先確定一些方向。會前會主要的功能就是讓委員們可以就自己提案內容，可以很細地跟部會討論，知道部會們在想什麼，這個第二屆會維持。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "接著，青諮會實施要領的部分，跟第一屆設計是一樣的，委員可以自己提案，找兩個人連署或有兩個人提案、一個人連署，總之合計三個人就可以提案，提案的內容，由委員就自己想要推動、關心的議題提出(第一屆的提案情形可自行參考)。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "第二屆將新增一個機制，就是過去開會時，會發現委員的提案有點相似或是上下游關係，有時候一次的提案太多，未來我們會在會前會時設計機制，可以重新調整整併案由，或改以會前會協調整合後的名義提案。這部分是新增的，未來運作上有什麼問題都可以再做討論。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "接下來是第一屆的成果，第一屆開了六次大會、兩次會前會，另外在10月22日開了一次回顧交流會，邀請第一屆委員針對過去兩年提供所看到的心得感想與建議。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "另外一個很重要的部分是，之前都有調查委員關心的議題、想要參與的部會，幕僚單位彙整後，會把委員的資料提供給部會，部會日後會是要邀請委員。第一屆的二十五位委員總共參加十七個部會召開的一百四十二場次的會議與活動。下一頁的開會期程提供大家參考，這些在青諮會的網站上都有。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "接下來要介紹青諮會的運作了，第一個部分-委員提案，剛剛有特別介紹，跟以往一樣，就是委員提案，然後針對這個提案在會前會與大會中共同討論。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "再來，這個部分是新增的，過去部會有很多會議跟活動，都有邀請青年委員參加，但委員們會認為，參加的活動很片面，參加一個不知頭、尾只知道中間片斷過程的會議，或者只參加一個活動，並不知道這個政策當初是如何形成的。因此在第二屆提出一個方式，請部會提供長期辦理與召開，可對外公開定期舉辦的會議、任務編組，或是委員會等，讓委員們可以觀察員或是列席者的身分，可以去那邊瞭解部會推動重大政策的過程。這個部分是新增的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "再來，參與部會也會持續請部會辦理，邀請委員參與。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "另外是組團拜會，這個是第一屆敬峰委員提出來的，過去已經實施過，找了教育部、經濟部、文化部及勞動部來試辦，委員們的反應都很好，但是比較可惜的是，已經是第一屆快要結束的時候才辦。委員覺得透過這樣的座談會，可以跟事務官、政策執行者、承辦人溝通為什麼他們當初推這樣的業務，推動上有什麼困難，對業務了解可以更為深入。因此今年會在一開始就辦，而且委員可以自己組隊連署，要去哪一個部會，我們就pass給他們，這樣比較直接，不用透過過去大規模調查，希望未來常態性辦理。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "除了青年事務，唐政委每一個月都定期召開社創巡迴座談會，而青年署也有辦論壇，到各地聆聽聲音，也讓年輕人把自己的聲音表達出來，因此青諮會未來也會融入，邀請委員參與，形成青年協作的平台，未來如果有相關資訊pass給委員，請委員有空時候，儘量參加，委員的參與是最重要的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "巡迴座談應該是第二屆最重要的變革部分。剛剛有提到唐政委固定會主持社創巡迴座談會，其實青年關心的面向是很多元的，可能來自居住、就創業、教育、高關懷青年或青年本身，未來我們希望參考社創巡迴，定期讓委員們可以在自己的點或是在各縣市不同的點、到地方去作交流。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "參加的人除了委員、副召集人，我們會找相關議題的部會代表一起參與，我們會事先蒐集與會者相關意見，邀請相關議題涉及到的部會代表，一同參與。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "當然還有相關的議題團體，專家學者、年輕朋友等都會邀請進來，當然如果有在地的地方政府代表，我們也不會限制。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "白話說，像偉翔委員關心技職教育，仁鴻、君薇、筱菁委員可能關心跟地方創生有關的議題，未來都可以提出，又或者大家想隨性來聊都沒有問題。地點的選擇，過去第一屆的委員有表示，每次要從臺南、高雄來，有一點辛苦，所以我們希望未來可以打破這樣方式，會考量區域平衡的方法通盤調整，原則上我們會兩個月辦一次，這個是目前的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "我們希望用新增交流平台及強化現有機制兩大方向來改變。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "接著是青諮會網站的介紹，其實委員都很厲害，這個部分不花太多時間來介紹。大家可以在google打「行政院青年諮詢委員會」，主要想請委員們更新自己的圖像及相關資訊。委員可以自己維護資訊，例如加上FB，日後讓使用者如果想要跟哪位委員聯絡都可以自己聯繫，這部分青年署不會幫各位做，麻煩各位更新。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "青諮的網站部分，已將預設密碼提供給各位委員，帳號是委員當初留的電子郵件。回去後大家就可以開始使用了。之後如果有任何需求或者問題，請持續與青年署聯繫。我的時間到了，就到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "大家有沒有什麼問題？" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "一開始有六個功能，是青年協作平台跟巡迴座談，有什麼差別？" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "巡迴座談跟青年協作比較不一樣，協作的平台是自由參加的，自由參加的過程，議題上必須配合社創巡迴座談會，青年署的論壇，可以讓自己談想要的議題，那個可能會比較讓委員自由發揮，而巡迴座談，形式是比較明確的，我們會在某一個時間點、在某個地方辦座談會，針對那個委員們討論出來的主題，請相關與會人員共同出席，與會人員可以事先詢問，幕僚單位會pass給部會，大家討論之後的決議，也會列管。我覺得巡迴是比較正式且完整的機制，而協作平台就是比較非正式的場合，自由參與的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "政委拿起麥克風，很想要反駁的意思，把時間交給政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "名字可以改，青諮會到你的組織的地方開會，其實是這樣的想法，就是一個移動青諮會，跟移動城堡是一樣的概念，但是前面的協作平台都是既有的，所以議程設定必須還是以既有的議程設定為主，所以很歡迎各位青諮委員參加，但是很難像社創會議今天是由內政部合團司召集去某個地方，專門討論合作社事務，大概很難凹到別的事情，但是如果是青諮會跑到你家開會的時候，完全是由青諮會決定，這個是主客的差別。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "有沒有其他的問題？" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "所以青年協作平台跟移動的青諮會有什麼不一樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個可以改名字。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "移動青諮會是我們可以提出來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "地點跟議題都是青諮會的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "這個都是我們先提出的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只要有寬頻網路的地方，有些支援的部會不一定都要去，我們在社創巡迴的時候也是一樣，像我去花蓮的時候，其實各部會有時在社創這邊，然後我們去放一個投影機，透過視訊會議，他們看到我們在花蓮的情況，這邊也是要接，如果是太多部會相關的話，不一定會到金門，這個也要先講，或者是到金門不方便，也可以選擇在這邊，我們會儘量用遠距會議的方法，讓大家儘量看得到金門的聲音。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "剛剛大家看到德國派，也就是很精準看到定義是什麼，我比較法國派，其實這幾個蜂巢型的圖案只有一個想法，各位委員可以提案，可以發展出來第七、八塊，你們想做的事，可以透過一個個平台，我們來完成，不管是我們下去或者是我們請大家來都可以。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "例如像我們到了某一個地方、哪一個議題，優秀的青年署同仁自然會幫大家把細節，不管剛剛政委所講的網路或者是必須要大家配合這一次去要做什麼，這個是有預期的目標，先前有一些議題是蒐集到找相關的部會，可能在另外一邊跟我們去，這都是很彈性的，也可能不只有這六種，可能有第七、八個介面都可以，這個是比較粗略的概念。" }, { "speaker": "簡德源", "speech": "先跟大家報告我們在最近這一段期間參照第一屆委員的建議，然後再發展出去的平台，但是並不是很固定的，或者是可能在執行的過程中都會演化成不同的樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一屆一開始的時候，其實這六個都沒有，只有說固定要開大會，第一次大會的時候冒出了提案討論，再過一次討論是參與部會，接下來在中間又開始有組團拜會，這個已經到第二年了，所以現在大家看到「巡迴座談」、「列席/觀察」、「青年協作平台」，這個是第二屆到後面的時候，開始冒出一些想法，但已經來不及試做了，所以就跑到各位的手上，如果發現不是很好用的話，加減乘除都是非常容易的，只要提一個案說要調整就可以調整。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "因為之前我在教育部青發署青諮時，大家都在不同的城市，其實我們平常很難call說一起弄一個組團拜會或者是弄什麼參加列席，也就是我們自己很難主動參加，等到下次大會其實滿久了，其實我很喜歡這個設計，只是我們要如何知道接下來什麼時候會有機會可以參與哪一些拜會活動？因為看起來現在的網站並沒有這麼明確，可以比較清楚知道我們運作的流程。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我們初期不熟悉，如何知道我們可以怎麼參與？" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "本來希望委員們可以主動，但是考量委員一開始可能沒那麼認識，彼此不熟，一開始幕僚單位可以來做這樣的彙整。像過去的組團拜會，也是敬峰委員提案，我們花了一段時間製作問卷，調查委員想去的部會，然後再把訊息pass給部會，請部會邀請委員參加。請大家不要緊張，大家現在會覺得不熟，但未來在許多場合都有機會見面。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "所以回復希慈委員提問，如果未來想要發起什麼的話，可以先丟給我們，我們把訊息pass給大家，問大家有沒有什麼興趣，這也是可行的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "敬峰委員與第一屆委員等一下會花一點時間跟大家交流，如果大家有什麼問題，第一屆委員實際有運作的經驗，會比較瞭解怎麼跟部會敲敲門、溝通、寫提案，等等可以提出。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我們可以建一個什麼群組之類的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實上次敬峰接了副召集人，第一件事就是弄一個即時通的群組，把所有的人都找進來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果大家有更想要用的通訊軟體，那個完全是看大家決定，所以找一個有組織力的副召是很重要，這等一下敬峰會講，我就不講了。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "現在通訊軟體很多，找一個人號召起來就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "通常會議大概什麼時候會有這樣的通知？" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "哪個部分？" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "任何部分。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "大會這種因為院長會親自出席，時間一定會先調查，只是像上次有突發狀況，臨時變動，否則不管是會前會或大會，都會於一個月前以二至三個時間讓委員挑，儘量找委員可出席人數較多的時間為主。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "其他運作，因為要讓部會那邊知道，可能會要一至二個月的時間才會動起來。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "有關於巡迴座談，大家知道政府部門人力有限，可能需要單位來協助，第一次座談會若有找到委員協助，可以小規模在1月試辦。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "我們可以。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "可以再聊。所以有關巡迴座談的部分，目前暫定二個月一次，主題、地點、時間都有初稿後就會通知，訂出來後也希望委員可以多join我們，就像政委所講的，有些機制有時從第二年才產生，就是運作過程中一點一滴去調整，推行過程中希望委員能多一點協助。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "又有第一屆的宗震委員到了。有沒有意見？" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "像這一些會議紀錄是會寄給我們，或者是會放到hackfoldr。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們網站本身就有紀錄功能，如果你覺得網站有任何部分是可以更漂亮的話，整個網站都是開放源碼，都放在github上，如果有認識工程師朋友或者是設計師朋友，網站可以隨便改成他想要改的樣子。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "每次會議都有，網站上都可以看一下(show青諮會網站)，像第六次青諮會在107年8月8日，我們就把議程、逐字稿、紀錄及照片都放在上面，而出席委員的部分則列在旁邊。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "青諮會或者是各縣市的青年委員會，大家都會希望強化連結，是不是可以有一個名單，等於從行政院到各縣市青年委員會的名單，將大家的姓名、聯繫電話、關注什麼議題、專長及領域，我們如果有發起的話，議題可以跟某個縣市，也就是關注什麼領域的委員有一些互動的話，我們這樣的連結是不是可以更直接一點？我不知道這個會不會有個資的問題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那是採自願揭露。如果你希望大家都知道你的email，你可以揭露，但是如果不希望的話，我們目前預設沒有揭露，其他的縣市政府大概也都會是類似的情況，我們當然可以以這個名義來給政府說你們青諮會的名單交上來，還有每個月更新之類的，他們到底願意揭露什麼，並不是我們可以強制他們，因為我們針對每一個縣市的青諮會，其實並沒有上下從屬的關係，並不是他們匯集意見提到中央來，為何希望移動青諮會希望跟在地的青諮會一起舉辦，是可以自然換，並不是超自然要他們填報，這個是主要的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想名單本身，只要是各縣市有公開，我們可以請人家來蒐集，但是電話或者是email或者是什麼帳號，那可能用自願揭露的方法。" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "如果沒有問題的話，先休息一下，我們都會在這邊，如果餐敘過程中有什麼要交流的都很歡迎，用餐愉快，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "等一下進行的時候，大家可以自由行動，大家可以輕鬆聊。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我是阿峰，我是上一屆的副召集人，當副召集人並不是比較厲害，而是剛好認識的人比較多，所以剛好被選到，這一屆有一個條碼，因為上一屆就很像選舉一樣，大家看不到我的照片，只看到名字很熟悉就蓋下去，所以就選我，這一次如果大家認識過，真的可以選過有才能的人，不要再選到黃副召集人，要選對很重要。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "副召集人很重要，一個是組織的角色，不太需要解決事情，因為我們有唐鳳政委，她可以解決掉99.8％的問題，0.2％是院長都沒有辦法解決（笑），所以我覺得副召集人是讓大家彼此可以更熟悉，這個是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "新的委員會是沒有什麼約束力，大家平常都在各自四方的單位，有時說不來就不來，因此今天原本有九個委員要來，但是只有四個人到而已，李欣也是第二屆的委員，所以今天的活動非常自在，希望可以跟大家分享一下過去在第一屆學到的東西。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我剛當上副召集人位置的時候，我有邀請上一屆的青年顧問團，像以立國際的Kevin、SE的交流會議，那一次的會議比較可惜，上次講比較多，第一屆講比較少，我希望大家可以多做一些交流。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我聽科長講說自我介紹沒有花太多時間，大家可能站起來講兩句話就下來，我覺得等一下可以多介紹一些，然後就開始大亂鬥，也可以給一些想法跟建議。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得問題的方向可以有幾個：第一個是到底實際上這個組織在做什麼？第二個是這個組織會遇到什麼困難？第三個是我個人覺得滿重要的，可能是我自己滿不擅長的，也就是如何寫一個提案？第一線裡面有幾個好朋友常常跟政府單位在斡旋，像我都會丟給他們100字，他們就會產出500字，我是丟給泰翔。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得可以介紹一下你是誰、哪一個單位邀請你過來的，對於青諮委員的期待、看法及想法，因為你們就是要選副召集人，希望大家不要選得不明不白，我第一年當的時候也都跟貢丸訴苦，希望貢丸不要離開這個單位。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "貢丸很重要，因為貢丸事實上很重要，他在唐政委辦公室裡面，僅次於葉參事，貢丸經驗很老道，也有當過蔡玉玲政委辦公室，還有數不清政委的辦公室，希望他可以繼續待著。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "會遇到一些問題是效率為什麼這麼差，你不知道為什麼的時候，你可以問他，因為他本身是讀法律背景，所以很懂這一塊，如果你有一些無法訴苦，可以問他，他很像我的張老師專線一樣（笑）。先介紹一下你是誰，像你自己在意什麼議題，如果你們講不夠多，因為第二屆我多少認識一些人，你可以講多一點。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "請給一些掌聲。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "大家好，第二次介紹，我叫仁鴻，我大概是在五年前，研究所畢業時，剛好參與經濟部的計畫，在做研發替代役的工作，剛好對接的事是跟宜蘭縣政府、政大三方有關，我也是因為這樣的緣分，所以就回到家鄉。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "在這個過程中，從過去到宜蘭青年事務委員會，一直到退伍之後，覺得想要做的事，好像也沒有一個公司在做這樣的事，所以因緣際會就自己出來成立工作室，到現在還活著，主要是做地方的社區營造，是在宜蘭頭城、地方創生相關的議題。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "我們過去其實在蘭友會的時候，大專的學生遠水救不了近火，因為不可能每個禮拜回到家跟你做青年事務相關的地方參與，因此當時宜蘭縣政府要成立青年事務委員會時，我們就有建議以成立一個宜蘭學為核心的宜蘭青年學院，他們團隊再發揚廣大的精神。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "其實大家都投入關心，讓更多家鄉青年可以回流，也就是有一個愛臺灣的心。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "其實從過程中慢慢凝聚家鄉的青年人才，不管是本身在地人，或者是島內移民，我們希望透過社群在地學的概念，慢慢把在地生活感可以培養起來，這其實就是未來新一波的種子，才有可能站在第一線，所以在這樣的前提之下，我們試著努力在當兵的過程中，我也待過宜蘭縣政府，某種程度是角色轉移，也就是承辦人到執行單位。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "所以過程中其實有滿多點滴，也因為這樣子，所以後來剛好有很多的因緣際會，因此我們現在開始每一年都會舉辦頭城老街文化藝術季，其實就是一個平台，要挖掘在地有很多工藝職人的體驗，讓更多人可以更加認識這個地方，並不會每一次都去觀光工廠，這個是我們在做這一件事的價值，以上介紹到這裡，謝謝。我是青發署介紹的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "有聽到關鍵字是在地創生，事實上我認識他的時候，然後就介紹宜蘭貨，我印象沒有錯的時候，他應該是在政大讀研究所，就跟著吳思華部長的老師，那個老師年紀很大，是頭腦跟思想很前衛的老先生，所以他的頭腦跟思維是很前衛的，我們歡迎偉庭。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "各位大家好，我是偉庭，我自己講一下我參與過哪一些東西，我是內政部建築研究所介紹的，其實這幾年參與的案子，臺灣有一個「避難手冊」，二十五層以上、超過九十層的高層建築都需要透過「避難手冊」來計算整體的安全性及是否可行。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "其實我有參與這一個案子，目前這一版已經出版第二版的書了，目前是掛在作者群裡面，臺灣其實有限制一些鐵捲門的大小，其實國外有做一個超大尺寸的捲門，寬12公尺、高8公尺，掉下來的狀況是非常驚人，如何規範是安全、可用的，其實商場上都需要用到，如果為了讓空間更開闊、看起來更好，所以需要這樣的捲門存在，我們也有規劃一些如何做、確認他的安全，還有一些防火的管理。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "我現在是全職博士生，是在高雄科大，目前三校合併的一個單位。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "我目前這幾年做過防火建材的後面管理，我們要知道防火建材要拿到牌，也就是這個產品生產之後拿到認證，但是裝在市面上可能不一定是一樣的東西，也許大家沒有想過，或者其實有發生過一些案子，像南院的案子，比如假的防火漆，可能這一些是可以透過後市場管理的方式，或者是拿使照之前就可以阻止這種事發生，可以確保建築是安全的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "我這幾年參與過的案子是比較特別的，像高雄衛武營的藝術中心，當時要開幕之前，我們就要確認這個空間是安全的，他已經裝潢好了，要在裡面放一把火燒燒看是不是安全的，是有用一個可控制性的火，然後搭配一些驗證的方法，火沒有那麼大，是可以放一把火燒燒看，因此在進場設置的時候，周遭的椅子都比你昂貴，千萬不要撞傷他們，椅子看到其實不能坐，那個是要給貴賓坐的，其實有滿多很好玩的地方。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "我還有參與過的是隧道火災的模擬，其實在蘇花改的狀況，其實我們也有放把火，在新聞上也有看到，燒燒看是不是真的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "應該是說建築完全相關的部分？" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "其實我的專長就在這裡，都不是接觸人的，都是接觸……" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這個是滿重要的。筱玫是這一塊的專家，她今天沒有來。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "大概是這樣，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我想要自我介紹多一點，我不知道今天大家有機會坐在這裡青諮委員或者是幕僚工作夥伴們的原因是什麼？怎麼讓你某一天坐在這裡？過去應該是有很複雜的一段過程。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "但是我覺得今天我們坐在這裡，想要講的自我介紹是，我有一個鄰居，這個鄰居離我不是很遠，他比我小，他跟我弟是同齡的，是高中同校同學，高中的時候滿正常，偶爾會講幹話、打籃球、打電動，朋友不是特別多，但也不是沒有朋友，大家可以想像比較中二型的男生，會講一些很瞎的事情，比如像炸掉學校之類的話。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "後來考了一間不錯的國立大學，很正常唸到大二，大二有一天他就變成全臺灣都知道的一個人，他叫鄭捷。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我自己生命當中遇過類似像這樣的人，以前遇過不少，在我的同學裡面，有看到大部分的人不會告訴你他很喜歡建材、戲劇或很認真投入某件事，大部分的人是像鄭捷高中的樣子，不知道自己要幹麻，偶爾講幹話，不太知道日常要做些什麼事。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我們大學是唸社會學，我非常喜歡社會學投入這個科系，在裡面大量覺得非常開心學習跟行動，我最大的問題是為什麼有人是鄭捷、為什麼有人是我們，當然我的理想是難道鄭捷不能透過新的影響跟機制，讓他變成我們嗎？我的理想是，臺灣任何一個地方不應該倚賴一群人來解決臺灣環境的問題，所以最大的關心點從來不是關於菁英教育的這一件事，或者不是代表領袖，雖然不是代表，但是本質上去談如何讓系統、結構把我們的精神、狀態讓每一個人都可以擁有，這個是我最關心的事。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "一開始自我介紹很簡單講的是，如何讓青年開始解決問題，但是背後其實反映了很長的一段生態系，從K 12比較基礎的教育裡面，怎麼樣讓學生開始找到自己的使命跟熱情。到高中職108課綱談終身學習的這一件事到底是否能夠做得到，這樣的教育與核心哲學，到底是不是一致的，或者是在很多地方有很多歧異，這個東西我很關心。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "到大學端USR、大學社會責任，如何把大學高等教育再帶回到幾乎每一個人都是大學生的情況底下，讓大學生可以進入解決問題的狀態，我很關心這個。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "再往後端走是社會創新創業的這一件事，如果要做要怎麼就業、創業，我覺得很多人都很關心社會企業在法規上經濟部那一塊的運作，我覺得很缺乏的是NGO段的育成，當大家談社會企業是企業而要支持他的時候，也有很多問題要用NGO的模式來營運。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我自己是NGO的創辦人跟負責人，我感覺不到內政部在這一件事有做任何事，可能做了，但是我沒有感覺，所以那可能是一個問題，因為我滿活躍的，所以我覺得在這一種投入社會解決工作的工作者扶持，我覺得對整體社會是重要的，因此我很關心關於整個教育端，裡面包含經濟部、勞動部的協力是我自己比較有興趣的。" }, { "speaker": "張希慈", "speech": "我最後一個小興趣是非常愛旅遊，我今年旅遊了八個國家，有一半都是自己出去玩，有一半是參加計畫，我對於是不是可以不要用臺灣的錢來養臺灣人很有興趣，也就是花別的國家錢來養解決臺灣問題的人，這個是滿不錯的idea，這個是我自己額外有興趣的，幫大家找國際資源來養大家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "她讀大學就在做，幫助更多學生找到他們自己想要的方向，我的印象中是他們在講消保法規的部分。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "教育的部分很多人也有提到，像政哲也是非常有經驗，最猛烈處理教育議題的部分。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "第一屆跟第二屆好像滿多是做教育相關的，這一屆也是比較多教育相關的，如果創業有興趣的話，可以問政哲，政府比較沒有那麼熟悉，所以比較客氣一點，可以藉由第二屆來發聲。接著是廣芝。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "大家好，我是曾廣芝。我是衛福部推薦來的，因為我大學的時候就是唸公共衛生，大家知道陳建仁是公衛背景出來，賴院長也是公共衛生背景出來的，其實公共衛生是非常跨領域，我們要學經濟學、社會學等等。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "我的大學生涯可能跟大部分的大學生都差不多，就是也會依靠共筆、上課，但是我在大學的時候，剛好有一些機會公共參與，我本來也是學生會的背景出來的，因此對於學生自治、公共議題都有參與，也有機會到衛福部開一些會議，我猜測也是因為有這些經歷，所以才會被推薦過來。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "我現在是在念碩士，念的是傷害防治，我們其實跟偉庭是不同的面向，但都是希望或能做到讓一些傷害能夠降低，只是我們專責在讓傷害降低的預防與治理這一件事，不限於哪一個傷害，這個其實也是公共衛生的一部分。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "其實現在很多年輕人關注的議題都很多，只是我比較瞭解的是在衛生、教育相關的這一塊，因為以前有去過教育部參與過一些青年政策綱領，這邊有些人應該也知道青年政策綱領，我當時也有參與一些會議，包含國教院來報告的時候，我們有給一些裡面指標的研議，因此在這兩個面向，我會稍微相較熟悉一點，也會有比較多的參與。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "我的FB在青諮會的網站上了，大家可以自己去加，我沒有帶名片的習慣，我更希望大家可以直接加了、在聯繫後透過談話知道彼此是怎麼樣的人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "可以跟政哲多聊，他對這一塊非常有興趣。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "大家好，我是智文，我關注的這個議題是政府正在推行的住宅政策，我覺得我會關注這一個議題是從我學生時代的點開始，其實我那時在高雄讀書的時候，我在高雄的租金是3,500元，我上來台北之後就跳到1萬1,000元的租金。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "住宅政策這一件事，其實我覺得非常有趣，而且跟大部分的人都息息相關，以前可能租屋的這一件事對大家來講是過渡需求，其實租幾年，考慮買房，但是近幾年發生一些事，不只二房東趨勢的出現，也包含大家開始出現租屋是長期需求，因此在政策的執行面裡面，我發現內政部營建署現在推動社會住宅，其實在我們的一線執行的感覺，我們認為政府推動社會住宅其實是想要讓市面上大部分的房東跟房客階段性地習慣租屋裡面應該存在的遊戲規則怎麼樣，這個是非常好的開始點。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "雖然是試辦計畫的第一年，裡面仍然有非常多的細節與配套是我們可以去完善的，在這一年裡面我們接觸了非常多的利害關係方，從地方上最基本的房東跟房客，房客又分為相對弱勢的房客，他們背後有非常多種需求與考量。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "我也碰過領各種補助可以月領到3、4萬的房客那一種很多專業的，暫時撇開這一種小眾不講，他們申請補助的方法都可以出書，出書應該會滿熱銷的，我也滿好奇他們為何申請到那個。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "當然在房東這一塊，甚至比較大型的地主，甚至是建商，在整個政策的推動上，其實我們的目的是在保障房東、房客中間的租屋權益，並不是偏袒誰，其實過去一直有很多租屋問題，中間有很多細節是房東都不知道責任是我或者是房客。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "我們公司部門在1月成立，我是這個部門的第一個員工，其實今年投入了四十個人在投入這一件事，光是台北市，全臺灣社會住宅政策的數字裡面，一間公司就佔了50％以上，台北市應該有60％以上，因此我們投入了非常多的資源。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "我們在這中間目前都還是虧錢、還沒有回本，但是我們看好長期發展，有更多的渠道與相當多的部會溝通，包含反饋一線的真實情況之外，也希望能夠瞭解到部會背後真正的考量是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "所以我覺得今天有機會能夠成為青諮會的委員，對來講有非常多不同的意義，其實我睡過學校研究室一年，為了省租金跟電費，我也睡過整張木板，我也睡過研究室的沙發，那個沙發三人坐，那是十幾、二十年的沙發，研究室沒有什麼經費。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "沙盒跟中間的隔閡都會卡到背，因此我在住這一件事上，我體會過非常多種模式，也住過那一種月租型的輕旅，我也住過一般的套房，我也住過共生公寓，自己又弄了幾間共生公寓，到今年包租代管業開始崛起之後，越來越多的年輕人，包括最指標的是玖樓，他們開始跳出來做共生公寓這個詞，越來越多人學習這個模式。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "不管是從產業面、青年創業面，甚至就房東房客，甚至是更大型的地主或者是建商，各種層面的考量，在各種政策上，我們都很希望能夠跟相關政府單位有很多比較實際的內容，這就是為什麼我站在這邊的原因，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我自己住新北市，我不知道其他縣市的委員有沒有做這一塊，社會住宅是營建署管。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "大家好，大家可以叫我Mandy，我其實是從科技部那邊推薦過來的。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "我大學是唸生命科學，大家常常說社會科學系就是畢業之後不知道要幹麻的系，因為臺灣的生技醫療發展，雖然政府講了非常多年，但是畢業之後，臺灣的生技不外乎是代工跟保健食品，真的有在做研發的非常少。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "我們做研發其實做得非常辛苦，大的出國補助，其實都會被那一些保健食品，或是較知名的生物公司壟斷，我們做技術研發的小公司，其實是非常不知道怎麼跟政府單位打交道，就連我從科技部出來的，我都不知道如何跟科技部求援，這個其實是我非常想要幫生技領域改變的地方。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "第二，我自己關注的領域是創業，我科技部是在創新創業的基地計畫，不知道有沒有人聽過？我那時帶了一些團隊，我帶團應該有兩、三百隊，帶了一些人去美國，美國回來之後，我們想要把美國矽谷的精神，也就是不畏懼時代的精神帶回來臺灣，因此我們在第一年辦了活動，是失敗者年會，我們會請一些人來分享他的失敗。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "在這一個活動的成立之下，我們也成立了臺灣矽谷創業家協會，這個協會其實並沒有很明確的目標，我們希望參與的創業家，把自己的資源拿出來幫助更多的創業家，因為在矽谷其實有很多的商業協會，像玉山協會，但是那一些人都是家裡很有錢，因為很有錢，所以他們可以加入一些協會，他們可以幫助更多很有錢的人在矽谷落地。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "但是像我們這一些沒有背景的人，其實去矽谷是非常辛苦的，因此我們希望在矽谷、美國或者是任何外國有一點根基的青創家，可以願意帶著沒有背景的人去那邊打拼，這個是臺灣矽谷創業家協會想要做的事。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "我們今年也有接受到一個孵育器可以幫助大家，所以身邊有人去舊金山落地，或者是有更多的資源幫助青創團隊落地的話，可以幫助大家合作，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我們這一屆好像沒有科技部的，科技部進來很好，因為他們預算最多（笑），歡迎最有錢的創業家。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "大家好，我是Rich，我先說一下，我應該是青發署、經濟部共同推薦，才有機會來當青諮委員。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "其實我很早之前從大學開始就在做公共參與這一件事，所以那時還是青輔會時代的時候，我就有參與青輔會第一屆的全國青少年諮詢小組。後來國際青年來台旅遊的志工，我們都很常協助與幫忙，因此很常在青輔會打混。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "我後來在大學的時候，除了在做青輔會這一塊，我在學校也成立了臺灣日本學生會議，因為我們認為民間外交才是臺灣未來的出入，所以我那時就做國際參與的這一件事，副署長的女兒也有參加過，這個會議就是臺灣跟日本學生間交流的橋梁，已經十四年了，都沒有倒，都一直存在著。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "大學畢業之後就去一個醫療公司工作，後來在醫療公司工作的時候，為何會創立Impact Hub？其實這個跟醫療工作是有關的，我覺得幫助人這一件事很快樂，不論是建立交流平台，公共參與不論是青年政策或者是照顧到更多的學生是很快樂。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "後來我在其他公司後期，我參與公司企業社會責任的專案，我們去調查到底有什麼樣好的CSR，傳統的CSR是帶員工去漆油漆、拍照，買個報紙、半版廣告30萬元，告訴我公司很注重企業社會責任的這一件事，我們看了很多paper，發現有很多案例分享，有很多大型公司願意跟Impact Hub合作。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "後來我們發現Impact Hub是什麼組織？怎麼那麼特別？我們發現臺灣又沒有，我們又缺席了，就覺得不行，還有另外一件事是，那時整個華語世界並沒有Impact Hub，如果我們可以搶得先機至少在社會創新的領域比中國更有話語權。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "事實上我們比中國更有話語權，所以我們後來去申請，花了十四個月的時間才終於把Impact Hub帶進來，因此把原本的工作辭了。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "我後來遇到很多的挫折，其實我爸、媽不能辭職，他們認為我不能辭掉工作，他們覺得我不用全心投入，但是我覺得應該要全心投入才可以做好。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "第二，我們在跟政府打交道遇到很多挫折，我們那時找了推薦其中一個我的部會，我們說想要利用政府的閒置空間，改造成Impact Hub，他們那時就跟我講說：「你們還沒有三十歲，請找你們的藍海，不要變成紅海。」跟我講這一句話我覺得很挫折，號稱是全中華民國最創新的政府部會，怎麼會跟我講這一種話？我覺得很沮喪，不能靠政府，而是要靠自己。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "因此Impact Hub從成立到現在，我們只有跟政府做生意、接政府的專案，但是我們從來沒有拿政府的補助，到目前為止我們撐了三年半，養了七個員工，因此我們成立Impact Hub就開始想說如何在臺灣藉由社會創新這一件事引起大家的矚目。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "剛好在2015年聯合國又在推行聯合國永續發展目標，就是政委身上穿的十七個目標，因為Impact Hub跟聯合國是有直接的簽約，因此我們有很多第一手的消息，政府拿不到的東西，我們拿得到，因此透過這樣的方式就開始在臺灣寫專欄，之前副署長在的教育廣播電臺，那時有一個月有一個小時LIVE的節目介紹SDGs，就跟全臺灣的老師講這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "後來又開始在全臺灣辦很多跟SDGs辦工作坊，或者是去企業裡面訓練CSR如何去mapping，歡迎大家來我們的空間，因為我們在科技大樓捷運站後面有兩棟老房子，都是六十年的老房子改造的環境，這邊有一些人有去過。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "為什麼會用老房子？我們想要讓年輕人到老房子當中去賦予新的意義與生命，傳統開發派的想法是都市更新的這一件事，也就是把房子拆掉變成新的，把舊有的建築物保留賦予新的意義，也就是都市活化的途徑，所以我們就弄了這樣的空間，我們現在的空間有十七組團隊，有一半以上都是跟社會創新有關的，包含在臺灣推行B型企業的B Lab也在我們的空間。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "還有一個在做尼泊爾貧窮教育的遠山呼喚，他們在空間跟我們一起合作、工作，所以非常歡迎大家來我們這邊坐坐，跟我們團隊交流，因為我覺得我們團隊有很多很有影響力的，像one-forty都是從我們空間出去的，所以非常希望大家來這邊跟我們團隊一起交流。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "在國際參與這一塊我們其實很努力，在今年9月我們有透過其他方式，去聯合國其他高階的政治周邊會議為臺灣發聲，而且我們這一次是拿臺灣護照進去，並不是拿台胞證進去的，我們在自我介紹的時候，我們前面坐了一排中國的青年，我們說我們是從臺灣來的，他們那時的臉色就變了一下，也不敢講什麼，所以我覺得這個很爽，覺得超爽的。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "因此我覺得青諮的委員們大家負責不同的議題，我覺得我們可以很好利用Impact Hub的平台，讓世界看到不同的年輕人、不同的地方，大家在做地方創生，然後在做教育職涯探索或者是防災的這一件事，我覺得Impacth Hub有機會去聯合國發表跟倡議，我覺得這個是透過民間的事情，所以我做這一件事是有這樣的脈絡，希望大家未來有機會好好交流。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "青諮小組很像同溫層大會，因為很多都認識，我覺得像剛剛所說的巡迴座談這一件事非常好，我覺得要去不同的地方，請他們去找宜蘭很多的青年一起來，這樣才可以突破同溫層，不然我們認為進步的議題是無法擴散，在大家的群組裡面無法影響更多人，因此這一件事，我覺得臺灣會越來越好，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "謝謝大家。他們也算是第一屆翻譯跟SDGs的，每一次演講都用你們的，我們這一屆也有一個游適任，青年諮詢委員會，很重要的推動者是外交部，上一屆都是以創業為主，所以外交部不太知道，其實外交部滿需要，那時外交部聯絡我，我問他是不是打錯地方，應該要介紹游適任，但是我覺得外交部需要更多的方法，年輕人知道外交是在做什麼事。接著歡迎明媛。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "我在猜想，因為自己是工總青年委員會教育長的關係，所以應該是經濟部推薦的。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "我們換一個名字講，如果廢死聯盟是支持死刑的協盟，那工總就是支持勞工運動的協盟。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "不過因為工總這幾年大家在看，這一次成立是第二屆，我這一次是青創會的成員，我們主要看到的一些面向是臺灣許多中小企業還是主要的商業經營者持續想要做創新，可是尤其第一代到第二代這一塊其實是很尷尬的過程，尤其第一代成功的背景之下，可是其實在當初的教育有一些沒有那麼高的情況下，無法接受更多新一代的資訊。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "第二代在做轉型的過程中，為了脫離傳統產業的包袱，其實很多人說：「你們是富二代。」其實不盡然，剛開始背負這個行業的時候，已經背負著很多家庭的生計，還有很多每日營運的壓力，不像一般青年創業可以一開始從幾個夥伴開始打拼的革命情感，一開始進入二代接班的時候，我們就會面臨很多宮廷鬥爭戲碼，老臣跟接班、培養自己的人馬，還有如何開源節流的問題，其實會有很多的困境。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "一方面關心青年創業的話題，跟這個未來可能的發展，可以對於目前有的中小企業二代如何把產業接軌，甚至轉型到下一個，我們公司在台北，不過整個產業或者是會議，整個全臺灣都會有的。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "面臨的困境是很多，但是感覺到大家投入的資源比較少一點，大家會覺得你們已經有了資源，所以把資源移給目前看起來尚未沒有資源的青年創業這一塊，這個也是我們現在慢慢推動發展，也就是儘量做長程接班論壇，如何可以有更多的資訊，有人是天使投資人，這個也是我們會的成員，有一些是需要更多的資源來做輔助，所以我們每一年會辦很多的接班論壇，來跟每一個不同的產業面向來得到更多的關注。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "因為我自己本身還有在大學兼課，我自己有兩個小孩，幼教的部分是我比較關注有關於托嬰的部分，我現在無聊了，但是喝酒可以找我。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我現在聽起來比較多是有關於中大型企業的接班，事實上他們接這個也是家裡的業，雖然我兩年沒有吃過，我們這一屆還有一個是呱呱園，像頂呱呱賣的薯條在全臺灣有七千戶有合作，也推了一些有關於勞資的議題，並不是站在勞方、資方，而是提出一個解決方向的位置。一個是農夫、一個是漁夫，這個都可以多問。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "大家好，我是吳君薇，我是文化部推薦，我會推薦的原因是因為在文化部常常提出很多問題，他們覺得把我丟來這裡可以有相當程度的解決。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "我分享一下我的團隊在新竹，我們做了一個「見域工作室」，希望讓大家重新看見地方，剛剛提到新竹，很多人會想到米粉貢丸科學園區，風也很強，新竹其實是很多人到這邊求學、唸書或者是工作的地方，這裡的不在籍人口很多，很多人把這裡當作是求學工作的地方，而不生活的地方，對於在地的文化不太瞭解，也不太有興趣去做進一步、想要知道及挖掘，我們從出版一本地方誌開始，我們去新竹各地採訪有工藝的老匠人，記錄各式各樣的故事，然後把它編輯成一本比較是親民的刊物。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "在編輯刊物的期間，我們會發現有些東西帶著大家到那個產地或者是到大街小巷裡面去看到人工做的樣子其實是更有味道的，我們也因此而發展出小旅行等業務。同時我們也發現政府有非常多的計畫正在執行，但是過往可能會比較直接找大型的顧問管理公司，可能跟在地的一些知識缺乏連結，我們後來其實也會跟政府一起在合力的角色去做一些地方資源的踏查。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "其實我在經營小旅行導覽業務時就會面臨到沒有旅行社的牌照，其實是很難直接宣傳你的服務等等，例如我在文化部提出這個問題的時候，他就會說：「你的小旅行可以改名成見學。」其實這個都不只是我一個人遇到的問題，我是文化部青年村落、文化行動計畫的講者，其實文化部有系統，最近三、四年在臺灣各個社區，希望透過這樣子的獎勵機制，去補助以往不是社區發展協會長出來的這一些組織，希望有一些年輕人可以到在地的去蹲點，我遇到的問題是，臺灣有很多年輕團隊都遇到，我介紹到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "謝謝。文化部上一屆介入比較少，我們去拜訪文化部之前，事實上貢丸是文化部的代表（笑），基本上文化部沒有什麼出席，因為每一屆的組成比較不一樣，我覺得去各部會拜訪滿重要的，他們覺得文化部事實上對於青年諮詢委員會，想要做一些事。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "下一位。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "大家好，我是筱菁，推薦來的單位應該是農委會的水土保持局，我從去年參加水保局青年回留政策的補助計畫，我們是從去年3、4月開始在台南七股有在做食魚教育的這一件事，我的背景其實原本在台南唸都市計畫的空間專業科系，我跟兩個夥伴三個人比較想要做在地的實踐，所以我們想要去到真的場域，我們選擇了農漁村開始。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "我們在七股做的事情比較像媒介的角色，也就是城市跟鄉村間資源的經紀人，我們在漁村裡面去帶消費者認識養殖漁業在做什麼，所以我們規劃一些課程、體驗活動，讓他們去接觸漁塭這一件事，所以剛剛提到是在養石斑魚，因此想瞭解一下。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "我們七股那邊是養蛤蜊跟虱目魚為主，所以我們七股在做的事情偏教育課程跟辦體驗活動，我自己比較關注的是在於農魚政策的部分，我們也比較不是像社區發展協會出來，比較像在地做地方產業想要做一些事的青年，雖然都不是在地人，我們是台北跟台中人，但是我們想要留在台南，也就是想要為七股這個地方做事。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "關注的政策是，因為七股遇到的是漁塭種電的問題，我希望之後可以在這邊討論一些能源政策的問題，在臺灣這個區域要種電，在養殖漁業或者是農業上選址的位置，或者是在後面政府要如何跟地方協作，如何促進溝通的平台，這個是我關注的議題，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "謝謝筱菁。他是成大的學長，他的工作跟這個沒有關係。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "沒有關係，我的工作也跟都市計畫沒有關係。" }, { "speaker": "潘苾祈", "speech": "大家好，我是潘苾祈，我是森林系一年級的學生，由客委會推薦，暑假時參加客家青年事務訪問團，在當中有研習、學習客家文化、如何傳承並保護我們的文化資產，並且我對環保議題也相當感興趣，有關於回收產業的部分，希望以後能夠能更加深入了解，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "謝謝。瑞福今天也沒有來，我之前都叫他做很多事，這個是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "大家好，我叫家豪，剛剛有介紹我是原住民，純種的原住民，這一件好像原民會也沒有來，是這一屆的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我應該也是原民會推薦的，原民會推薦的時候，我怎麼會知道？因為有一次我去開會，他說：「家豪，我有參加你諮詢委員的推薦。」然後他就說：「可是你壓線了。」我說：「為什麼壓線？」我問：「年紀是幾歲？」我說：「對，35歲。」所以我才知道可能有這一件事，然後陸續最後真的有一些回覆。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "因為我是民國97年自己去組織合作社，因為我是資訊背景，我成立的是電腦資訊合作社，然後成立了十年，中間為了對抗資本主義，為了成為資本主義，為了拿到一點資源，我成立一些協會，必須要有一點資源，對吧！" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "剛剛講了十年，其實我關注的是我們青年的就業，從我自己創業十年，我才發現到成立合作社之後，其實就是創業，然後也就是就業，我最近在台大有發表一個文章，也是有關於青年就業，我在想可能是因為這樣子，所以他們推薦我來。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我們成立合作社早期找不到成員，因為要在都會區找到資訊背景原住民的族人很少，找了兩、三年，其實當時成立的時候，可能只有一些掛名的，加上自己是族人，大概六、七個是資訊背景，但是我們實際想要做一些計畫，也有接到工作之後，發現根本沒有這一方面的工作人員可以協助，因此開始找，然後開始問原民會，學資訊的人太少了，後來我們乾脆自己教，教到後面我們發現擁有資訊背景的人，可能想要創業，但是創的業，年輕人創的比較像文創相關的，在行銷是可以協助他，因為有寫一些軟體。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我們過去幫政府寫一些軟體的部分，反正時間到了，也就是合約履約期到了，我們會願意拿出來讓這一些年輕人使用是ok的，不要說是我們給的就好了。我們目前大致上在做的事情是相關的，因此比較關注在原住民青年就業跟合作社的議題。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我在原民會跟新北市政府都是當原住民有關合作社的就業委員，所以在這一個議題上關注很久了，剛才知道政委是這一個議題可以決策的人，我們剛好是勞動合作社，所以在這一塊來講，我覺得未來有機會可以跟大家請益，原住民的人才也建議可以給我們，我們其實不只需要資訊人才，也需要行銷的一些人才，只要是原住民的都可以介紹。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我們目前在新北有合作社，已經十一年了，在桃園也成立一個合作社，合作社加起來有六十位左右，實際可以出工是三十位左右，合作社沒有錢，自己來介紹案子，才有分配的比例，所以自己就是老闆，因此如果有機會的話，可以幫我們推薦一下，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "大家好，我是定芳，我的單位叫做「青藝盟」，我們主要服務的對象有兩個，一個是一般就學內的青少年，第二個是特殊境遇的青少年，針對就學內的青少年，我們主辦了十八年的花樣年華全國青少年的戲劇節，這個戲劇節就是要讓高中職的青少年演出六十分鐘原創舞台劇為目標。我們要帶著青少年自己自編、自導自演的舞臺劇，每一年暑假會在全台的北、中、南演出二十場，這一些東西都是由同學們寫的劇本，自己當導演、燈光、音效、行政及行銷等劇場工作。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "我們做的事情是他們暑假演出，前面有半年的時間跟他們做相關的培訓，培訓的內容包含了劇場的專業，也會請老師來講座，因為戲劇是很綜合的藝術，需要團隊合作才可以完成，就算是自己一個人演獨角戲，還是要有技術行政的人才一起完成，所以這個綜合藝術很適合拿來帶給青少年，為什麼？因為很多時候做事的能力是考試考不出來的，他們在學校很會讀書、考試，可是要團隊溝通的時候，他不知道該怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "又或者是團隊裡面的人的家人是不同意的，我身為社長怎麼辦，都會遇到這個問題，只要你實際做完之後，這一些經驗值都會到你的身體裡面，誰都搶不走，所以我們每一年都會舉辦這樣的計畫。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "每一年全臺灣都會有四十個高中職報名來參加，他們都是以團隊的方式，進來之後就會上劇場的基本概念，同學自己跑去分組，假設今天同樣一個時間，同樣開五門課程好了，我們大家是一個社團，你去上導演、我去上燈光、他去上音效，回去之後就可以合作完成一齣戲。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "除此之外，我們也會有陪伴的系統，陪伴的系統有直屬計畫，就像大學的時候大家一進去都要抽直屬學弟妹，我們會有這樣的制度，我們會有團員，然後每個月跟同學開會。內容是什麼？就是社團有問題可以一起來解決，或者是在面臨做一齣戲，你的藍圖實踐的過程有什麼狀況，都會陪伴他們。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "另外一個制度，我們叫做captain計畫，我們會根據他們戲的內容，找厲害的老師進來跟他們一起工作，像之前斗六高中，因為國中同學很多都未婚懷孕，因此就想要演一個這樣的故事，因此我們就找勵馨基金會的督導，看他們排練、提供劇本上的建議，在演出前兩個禮拜，導演跟我說：「定芳，我跟你說要改劇本」一齣戲都一個小時，我說：「怎麼了？」他說：「我原本要做這個戲，我想要幫我的同學發聲，但是我發現跟勵馨基金會督導看排的過程，我覺得只是片面用這個刻版印象在寫這個劇本，如果我演出來了，對我同學其實是一種傷害。」因此他要修裡面的東西，我說：「ok，你去改，沒有問題，反正我們的團員都會當你的後盾，協助你。」" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "像之前石碇高中的同學演同性戀的故事等等，我們請尤美女委員直接到石碇高中，尤美女委員超有心，她就直接趨車到石碇高中跟他們排，說為什麼今天同性戀的小孩，爸爸、媽媽會這麼擔心，因為他在社會上是弱勢的，他一定會相對擔心，甚至自責是不是沒有把小孩生好之類的，因此會把這一些東西跟同學們互相分享，我們這個平台就會變成讓同學自己完成一齣戲，去找到藍圖的實踐過程。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "第三件事是同理心的培養，很多是透過角色扮演，因此需要做功課，我們的同學演了反對他參加社團的爸爸，他本身爸爸就反對參加戲劇社，我覺得現在演這個不會很尷尬嗎？他是覺得透過這個來瞭解爸爸在想什麼，所以後來大學填戲劇系的時候，他爸爸就支持，我們7月份演出，我們在6月份的時候會寫信寄到每一個同學家裡面，邀請他的家人來看，告訴他說在家都不洗碗的小孩，在家就是每一次吃飽，腳都放在桌子上的這個小孩，他可以自己搬道具，為了完成這個目標，他願意用全局的眼光看待自己的份內，他願意做這一些事，因此邀請他們來現場。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "我們會在每一場演出結束後會放一個影片，而這個影片會告訴他的爸爸、媽媽說：「我覺得在這裡很好，學到什麼。」有些人的成績可能會退步，有些人是因為沒有時間讀書，所以成績變超好，都有可能，但是會告訴他的家長說：「我在這邊學到什麼，讓小孩子跟他的家長可以重新認識彼此。」戲劇節的這次經驗，未來孩子或許在當主管、要決策事情的時候，他們可以有一個同理的思考，透過這一段經驗，有學習到一些事。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "再來我們針對特殊境遇的青少年，主要是高關懷班、安置機構的青少年，簡單來說他們被學校放棄的少年們，可能比如平常很屁、很叛逆，直接在學校嗆老師跟威脅他們等等之類的，我們服務的對象是前面一樣有培訓，然後最後是演出。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "我們在實際陪伴的時候有發生一些事，會進到安置機構、關懷班，是因為家庭的功能不足的，或者是照顧的系統是不足的，所以導致可能對於學校、上課這一件事就很排斥，我記得第一次進到安置機構教課的時候，我才剛講完「現在分組開始」，全班就打起來了，全部在那邊飛踢，我第一次看到有人的眼白可以滲出鮮血，並不是疲勞的血絲，而是血塊的那一種，其實我當下有一點嚇到，我不是害怕，只是有一個疑問，為何可以不爽就可以打人，為何不爽就可以直接用拳頭來解決事情。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "那時我還在思考這一件事的時候，我們就在想到底這一件事到底如何讓更多的人看到，因為在我的生活圈裡面，青少年永遠都還可以想未來的規劃可以怎麼樣更好，但是這一群青少年只能想要怎麼生存下去，這一個家庭我爸打我媽的時候，我只能變得更強、更兇才能保護媽媽和自己，或者是他小時候因為太吵，被他媽媽打毒品要他安靜下來的時候，他還是不能離開媽媽，因為他媽媽可能是世界上唯一的親人，這個是我們第一次看到的東西。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "我們現在在做的事情是，我們11月剛做完一個演出，是台灣第一部講社會邊緣青少年的的故事，也是我們在第一線陪伴青少年看見的狀況，安置機構青少年因為本身被保護、不能露臉，因此演出一齣舞臺劇，希望透過演出，有更多的人可以正視到其實臺灣有一群青少年，他們面臨到這麼嚴重的問題，可以一起來思考如何解決。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "最後讓我講一件事就好了，我去跟政府部門談場地讓青少年做演出的時候，承辦人員跟我講一句話：「你們要演也是要師出有名，青少年不專業，為何要借我的場地來給你們演出？」是哪一個單位我不好說（笑）這兩年開始文化部推行非常好的政策，叫做「青年參與」與「文化平權」，這個政策開始推的時候，因緣際會又見到那個承辦人，他就說：「青少年很重要，青少年就是要參與戲劇、文化，真的很重要。」我想說他記性滿差的，但是我也是笑笑的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "文攀要先走，所以先講。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "不好意思，我先自我介紹我自己，我自己有旅行社，我講給你聽的，你的問題我都有遇過，我也自己有創業，以後還有很多可以討論的東西。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我八年前創業，我不知道是誰推薦我的，反正我就來參加，因為我在青輔會的時候，我在當旅遊文化的顧問，那個是好久以前，已經不知道多久了，如果也創業過的人就會知道創業是很健忘，我一定要靠寫筆記，否則會忘記，我其實有參加過fuck up的活動，我很佩服你們，我不知道你們實際年齡這麼輕，因為我也是壓線，現在是36歲或者是37歲了，這麼有影響力的是35歲以下。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我們公司主要是帶外國人來臺灣旅遊的，也做了好幾年，如果是對這一種有興趣，我們可以來討論，外國人來臺灣或者是做旅遊，又或者是地方創生，我可以把我的經驗跟你說，不用花太多的時間，我們一定會給你們實話，不會叫你們趕快去做，也會跟你們講外國人去地方小旅遊非常困難，我可以跟你講困難在哪裡，之後再說。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "在青年諮詢委員會的這兩年，我很感謝這一些其他的委員，因為我自己本身完全沒有提過案，因為很多人的提案非常厲害，他們也研究很久，不提案的原因有幾個：" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "第一，我覺得有些提案並不是這麼成熟，我想要提醒你們，有些不是那麼成熟的提案，不一定要提上去。有些委員很熱心來拉票，我也會很熱心打槍他，如果在這邊的都沒有被我打槍過，所以都是好朋友。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我覺得有一些提案你提上去，沒有經過完整的思考，如果未來要提案的時候，約出來見個面或者是在FB上面多討論會比較好，你要知道提出去的案子，對應的窗口是很專業的，他們會很容易跟你說，已經有做了什麼樣的事，然後列出一大堆，雖然不一定跟我有關係，他說做了這麼多，不好意思說要的沒有做到，總是擦邊球會達得到。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "當然有一些很創新的議題是政府官員沒有想過，而你提出來了，我覺得群內的討論是非常重要的，因為你們經過討論再提出來，會覺得比較周延。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "另外，我並沒有認同所有提案的原因是，其實有一些案子我看起來重複性很高，你一直重複提案，搞不好其實就把第一個案子要求比較完整；不好意思，因為我第一階段沒有參加，你們知道那個流程了嗎？有一個方法是不要追蹤列管就好了，這個是比較特殊的職位，我也是這半年才學習到的。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "等一下要幫我補充，因為我不懂，剛剛也已經有幫我鋪過了，我比較喜歡經營企業，跟政府打交道我真的也不會，你們有很關心的議題，很想要一直追下去的，你就盡情去追。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我們有跟上一屆交接，我覺得那個是非常重要的，當你提出這一些案件，政府真的會花非常多的資源，第一個是答覆你、第二個是會召開一些會議，把一些會議的結果整理出來或者是做研究。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我要告訴你們那個是納稅人的錢，不要太隨便提一些案子，或者是你可以跟那一些承辦人員討論出要怎麼樣執行會比較好的，這個你們之後可能會陸續感受到，但是因為這也是我上一屆告訴我的，我是深刻有體會到，因為承辦窗口會準備非常多的資料，也會邀請我們去他們的部會裡面開會。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我知道你們這一屆應該會先做部會拜訪，那個超重要的，務必要出席，那一次的出席抵上兩年我全部所有其他的會議。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "青年署的長官情何以堪。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我講的是實話，我也要卸任了，我也壓線了，對不對？就是沒有包袱、負擔，也不會有退出政治的困擾。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "部會拜訪是拜託你曠課、曠職都拜託一定要去的，那個會讓你見到窗口，你一定要記得是政務官會換，我們在開會的時候，事務官比較重要，你在部會拜訪的時候才會認識到事務官，因為事務官是這個問題在行政上的處理，政務官就跟隨政治，你認事務官跟做事的人是比較重要的。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "不是一定認識官才是好的，組長或者是底下的科員，他們會真正對於這一個問題更加瞭解，去跟他們聊，你的問題不一定是能夠得到解決，但是會獲得更透澈、完全不同的觀點，是由政府的角度告訴你們他們是怎麼看這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "在意見交換更多的情況之下，比較容易找出解決的方案，像跟青少年借場地，現在又希望支持青少年，這個在創業什麼都有這樣的情況，你永遠不知道他什麼時候會變化，但是事務官永遠都是follow他們的條文，他們會跟你講說這個不可以的原因是什麼，是不是可以有一些新的方式去做折衷。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我在這兩年，我覺得學到比較多的是折衷，如何在現有的法規或者是條文之下去獲得一些折衷的可能性。" }, { "speaker": "林文攀", "speech": "我們這一屆其實還滿多從南部上來的，我知道有一些南部的朋友、委員會比較辛苦，但是我會鼓勵你們，如果有提案，提案人一定要到場，如果不到場的話，很多問題旁邊幫你喊聲，到連署人是沒有辦法解釋得很清楚，你們要提案、要有一個連署人，也就是「我願意連署」，對那個提案的問題沒有辦法瞭解這麼詳細，你如果提案人不出現的話，很容易那個問題就被拖延到下一個會期，要知道這一次會期是一季，應該是三個月一次、四個月一次，一年開三次，miss掉一次，下一次就是八個月後了，儘量不要做這樣的事情，因此謹慎地提案，第一個周延的方案，提案一定要出席，這個是我給大家的建議。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "解除列管的部分並不是不要，而是有決定要不要，不代表一定不要，如果沒有覺得答覆到你的想法，應該是到院長主持的會議說持續列管。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "第二，我也做了這個提案，這個提案的重點在於基礎，也就是有事務官跟政務官，現場就有一位政務官，也就是唐鳳政委在這邊，有幾個判別方法，基本上部長有可能是事務官，事務官變部長，就是從事務官變成政務官，基本上部長前一定是政務官。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我當了一年之後，發現部長已經換人了，所以那時要跟事務官多交流，因此事實上都是由比較資深的事務官來做，我認識他們的時候，應該是僅次於次長的角色，大概是這樣的概念。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "經濟部是由吳明機處長，他之前在工業局當局長，事實上他非常有經驗，文化部有開兩場或者是三場，依照委員不同的屬性想要瞭解的繼續開會。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "現在是時間分配，剛剛有提到第二屆的委員，我覺得這個是滿大的挑戰，第一屆也有發現其實1/2，原因是你還要跟老闆講，有些到後面不能來，有一個委員是之前到經濟部工作，後來到外商公司之後就比較難請假，因此這一個部分要起到一些想法與策略看如何溝通這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "今天有些夥伴，第二屆來的也不多，如果第二屆沒有來，請他們聽過今天的，第一個是要瞭解這一些學長姐發生什麼狀況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "會有逐字稿。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "接下來要介紹莊科長。基本上跟我們這個單位有關係，可能某些委員認真參加，他比我還認真。我記得他都會參加教育部做網站的會議，科長以前在某些單位待過，所以其實有滿多跨部會的經驗，因此可以請教科長。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "貢丸也很重要，年紀不小了，還願意陪我們做這一些事，我們事實上也遇到滿多的挫折，是可以用20萬來聘一些人幫你做一些事，因為當過六個政務委員的秘書，因此瞭解跨部會的運作，我們都叫他簡參議。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這一位好像是外交部。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還是自我介紹，因為剛剛自我介紹的時候，琬梅還沒有來，關注外交的還滿多的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "我姓蔡，我叫琬梅，我現在主要是幫唐政委辦公室協助推展外交的業務，我儘量在可以的時間、範圍內參加唐政委辦公室有關聯的所有活動，包含青年委員的共識營。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "我剛剛一來的時候有聽到很強烈的反映，認為外交部是一個很封閉的部會，我幫外交部小小解釋一下，其實用很傳統的概念來講，大家會覺得國防跟外交是總統的職權，外交部的部本部位置其實就是在凱達格蘭大道面對總統府的左邊，地理位置就可以發現其實是給我們小事務官都不是很難掌控部裡面最高的決策，所以如果你從這個角度想的話，你可以發現其實外交有一點遙遠的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡琬梅", "speech": "但是青年外交是每一個人都可以做的，甚至是大眾外交，都可以落實在每個人的身上，如果這樣想的話，外交是比較開放的概念。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這個會議到底有哪一些部會來，是取決於大家的提案。如果你提一個外交部的提案，就會看到外交部同仁來。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "這一位是青發署的同仁。" }, { "speaker": "王少芸", "speech": "大家好，我是王少芸，現在在政委辦公室工作，我11月才過來的，我的本職是在教育部青年發展署綜合規劃組生涯組，很高興認識大家。" }, { "speaker": "王少芸", "speech": "我們現在在青輔會時代就開始推動，所以我們希望可以跟大家合作愉快，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "跟各部會借兵買馬。守斌也滿常來參加。" }, { "speaker": "魏守斌", "speech": "如果子維是我的大哥，那麼丸大就是我的祖師爺。" }, { "speaker": "魏守斌", "speech": "我1月份才來，因為丸大在文化部有其他重要的業務要忙，就把第一屆的工作交給我了，我永遠記得丸大要走的時候，交代我兩件事，他說不要講幹話，要努力做實事；秉持這個原則，各位如果有任何問題或建議都可以隨時反映提出，事務官們都很樂意在法規面去幫忙研究解套，找出更好的解方，這樣第二屆青諮會的運作會更順利。" }, { "speaker": "魏守斌", "speech": "我前段自我介紹一開始就說要洗心革面，所以我們找了青發署的少芸來強化我們的戰力，全新開始應該是非常值得期待，也希望各位能夠跟我們有密切的配合。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "剛剛有一位委員講得非常好，出席率是非常重要的，任何事情你要產生你的影響力，不管用什麼方法，第一件最重要的事是要出席，因為坦白來講，第一屆青諮委員有一些會議沒有參與，但是側面瞭解，我憑良心跟各位講，第一屆青諮委員的出席率對我來講是不夠高的，大家要想的是，當你在面對政務官或者是事務官的時候，大家都很忙，尤其對院長、部長來講，一天可能要面對記者、立委、利益團體、工總、商總，如果大家撥了一點時間給你，他的機會成本很高，他如果來一次、兩次，可以發現青諮委員來五個、十個，出席率連七、八成都不到，會影響他的狀態，當他覺得玩假的時候，就會很難影響他，因此從出席開始是一件非常重要的事。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我知道大家平常相當重要的工作，問其他人都沒有用，問子維才有用，子維最瞭解這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "Apple大家都知道，副署長跟署長大家都照顧委員滿多的，雖然不瞭解青發署有相當關聯性，特別是在教育部這一塊，因為副署長擔任教育部大大小小的事，所以媒體及相關的事都很熟悉，所以可以多找副署長。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "接下來交給第一屆的戰友們分享，我覺得政哲的內容很多，所以等一下再講。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "建翰是從屏東上來，他事實上也提了很多跟企業經營相關的議題。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "我都是附和的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "你外地遇到什麼挑戰與困難，可以分享你住在辦公室裡面。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "我從屏東來的，剛剛敬峰有幫我介紹，其實我就是一個漁民，只是我算是漁二代，其實在屏東養殖青年要回鄉，數量是非常少的，回鄉之後又有共識，然後要組織，那個是更難，所以其實我們大家都會有一些志同道合的好朋友，然後大家有一些想法，你知道這一些想法，講真的，你會要落實到，可能真的要跟中央對接的時候，那真的非常有難度。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "像漁業署會舉辦一些計畫去國外參訪，其實有很多的感受、想法，可能跟漁業署的長官提，提完之後會發現目前臺灣政治環境或者是我們真的是跨部會的結合能力可能沒有這麼地強，你久而久之真的會覺得好像心理內心會覺得臺灣政治氛圍就是這樣子，好像改變不了什麼。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "但是到最後會覺得獲選青年委員的職稱，其實在接收這樣的職位，我跟林委員比較接近，你看大家，大家都很認真看待每一個提案，這真的是很認真，其實第一屆覺得有一些提案的議題是相對比較沒有這麼重要的，我個人這麼覺得，其實在提的時候，會覺得為什麼這個要提，會浪費掉有很多更重要議題的提案，在慎選議題跟對這一件事的瞭解程度。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "大家其實是從臺灣各地去聚集起來很不容易，尤其各部會首長的時間真的是更少，真的是要講重點，還有很多東西是產業的議題，像跟青年相關的都可以提，雖然我們是青年委員，但是其實很多青年議題延續得很多，不會單純是因為青年，延續的可能是這個產業本身最根本的一些讓人家詬病的地方。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "我認為只要有任何的感受，這個產業可能有進步，或者是你們感覺到目前現實社會哪裡需要改進，你自己本身有想法，然後又組織更多的委員，大家其實都有共識。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "前提是可能跟你要提案、有相關部會的一些事務官或者是政務官，如果有機會問到政務官，可以問他們的想法，像我直屬的單位是農委會漁業署，我們之前有問過漁業署的長官，他們自己本身有一些想法，那時我本來有要提，後來沒有提，可能因為我的計畫不夠周延。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "像峰哥也講我們沒有人手，有時靠自己，算是漁村講真的會比較繁忙，我們自己本身可能沒有太多的時間去撰寫計畫或者是規劃更嚴謹、周延的方向，所以我覺得這個部分可以去找一些特定的部會，像他們有什麼意見，他們會很願意協助你，甚至幫你寫計畫都是有可能的，這個部分大家不要浪費。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "我覺得只要可以改善臺灣目前產業的模式或者是可以帶來更好，我相信有很多人會願意支持各位，或者是找到第二屆的委員，他們可能文筆比較好或者是手下的人比較多，或者是有什麼樣的人可以幫忙做，其實大家可以幫忙連署，這樣子我覺得大家組織一下。" }, { "speaker": "陳建翰", "speech": "其實要提不提，你改善不了這個現況與問題，但是我覺得沒有關係，還有第二屆，還有委員也滿注重農村不管是教育或者是現況，我覺得未來如果有機會的話，其實可以把自己本身原本的想法，或者是可以繼續幫我們創生下去，大概是這樣子，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "文攀先走了。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "剛剛建翰有一個建議，我不知道你當委員要做多久，大家知道嗎？如果知道的話，可以把數字比出來，看起來沒有人知道，雖然沒有比市長、總統久，事實上滿累的，沒有經費聘秘書，像後面這一些長官，只能靠自己，不然本身就要自己做這一件事，政哲本身做這一件事，但是你本身是創業家，像宗震或者是其他人，大家都要有心準備，你真的要承諾這兩年會花一些時間在這個地方，不管是出席或者是先做一些研究，我覺得這個是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "你可以多問一些，雖然沒有在提案當中，但是事實上基本上每一場會議，有80％以上都有參與。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "大家好，我是李欣，我有很多同學其實可能是因為家庭工作等等的關係，不管是中輟生或者是走上大家並不認為正常的道路，這後面有很多脈絡可以談，這當中有很多家庭或者是教育現場的問題，本身是老師，有第一線或者是很難解決的問題。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "像到教育資源比較缺乏的資源去做，但是在整個工作的過程中，其實會發生很荒謬的事，像有跟基金會合作，基金會給我們機會去做，像我自己印象滿深刻的是，你把孩子們帶去賣場買鞋子，聽說他們都沒有鞋子穿，事實上缺乏的並不是硬體的設備，而是帶他們建立更多的習慣，其實有更多的東西是沒有被看見，因此我自己對於這一塊的教育很感興趣，對於資源分配、權力掌握的這一件事很感興趣，因此大學就選擇政治系就讀。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "同時因為自願服務的關係，所以我在大學中也雙主修社工學系，這兩個學系不管是上課或者是討論的過程中，其實會發現其實有一點張力，未必有對立的狀況，但是會從不同的觀點去看這個社會，因為這樣子的關係，我會去做更多的公共參與，我之前參與教育部的計畫所以受到計畫，參與了青年諮詢委員，在大學的時候也會想要走更多不一樣面向的公共參與，所以加入了學生自治組織。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "青年協會是臺灣青年民主協會，也是有一個青年民主返鄉列車，透過募資的計畫送學生回去投票，這個是我們做的計畫，未來希望可以有更多的活動可以讓青年的聲音被聽見。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "就去年的經驗來分享，像我剛剛也有說到我之前休學，我現在是在公司工作當中，我自己有感覺到非常明顯的落差，我是學生的時候，我的出席率這麼高的原因是，因為我沒有去上課就來開會，那個是我自己選擇的事，並不會牽扯到很大的組織，那個是我自己承擔的，但是像我現在在工作的時候，我大概從8月開始工作，我來參加這個會議，其實我就要去跟我的主管、公司溝通，我覺得這個確實在未來兩年有需要思考或者是需要規劃，如何讓大家知道你在做什麼。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "有一些公司像朋友相關的，相對來講會比較支持，你做的事是他想要推動的，如何把這兩個連結，或者是如何透過這個成果，又或者是這裡面可以做到的事，是他來讓你來這邊開會是值得的，這個請假是合理的時候，我覺得這確實是需要想一下的。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "像剛剛文攀所提到過去兩年中沒有提案的原因，我並不是經營在某一個議題的場域當中，我提出的問題是確實在一個進程中，但是我並不知道。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "像剛剛提到拜訪部會是滿關鍵的部分，其實跟窗口對談到這一件事，在大會或者是很多會議上，其實是政務官或者是很多層級比較高，不管是部會或者是一些考量，必須有一些大家都理解的回覆，我們已經有做什麼，也許也可以想要做一些東西，這就會成為他在這個會議中讓這個部會新增的成本，他就不能這樣子做。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "但是你直接跟他對口有一些非正式的交流，當你知道某一件事由某個窗口做的話，不管是跟哪一個單位接洽，或者是這個東西在部會的進程是什麼，或許之後再做溝通會更容易。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "更重要的是，想要跟更多的相關利益團體來溝通，我自己過去有找一些其他的團體去聊，現在有這個提案，但是我不太瞭解，其實我想要知道更多不一樣團體的聲音，其實差距就會很大，會覺得怎麼會有一些提案被提出，總之被討論了，在有這個提案之前，會有更多不一樣立場的團體談完之後會有更全面的想法，會有更多的提案流程在這樣的進程中，這個是我的分享，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "剛剛有提到的是，政務官跟事務官還是有滿大的差別。像我們這一屆，歷經兩個院長，上個月我們有一個建言會，那個會議我們講了很多，我們認為再有一個機會看看有什麼改善，那個是滿重要的，鼓勵大家聽。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "各位好，我是宗震，大家可以叫我張震，我背景是唸數學統計，我自己是資料分析共同創辦人，我有一個非營利的計畫，是專門用資料分析幫助政府單位或者是非營利組織來解決問題，像前一陣子幫衛福部做家暴預防，哪一個孩子三個月會被打第二次，我們大概是做這一類型的事。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我覺得新任的委員可以組一個FB group的東西，這個滿有用的，有用的是平常交流，或者是共同寫提案時聯繫方便，還有一個是真的在開會議時，可以打pass，超好用，看看有哪一些人可以幫我補一槍，大概是這樣的使用方式，我覺得這個是第一個可以做的。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我剛剛有被cue到講提案的東西，我要補充一點，大家要知道一件事，我們的身分還是很珍貴的，少數人才可以進入到委員會當中，而且會有非常非常多的政府資源投入在這個會議上，你們每一個提案大家都花了非常多的時間，你的提案是一堆人在回覆，因此提案的心態要對。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "第二，在提案上的話，你要知道幾件事，因為我是企業創辦人，所以我會在意user跟buyer，你是要為誰發聲、你要為誰講話，你是行政院的青諮會，你的機會是對院長講話，並不是對民意代表講話，你是對院長，所以你的TA既然你關心的人是痛點，然後對院長講話，你要講對方向，這一件事是滿重要的，也就是痛點方向是對的、事情脈絡是要對的。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我相信一件事，我們關心的事大部分政府都看過、做過，只是他的方向跟你的不一樣或者是根本不知道他要做或者是做完了，所以事前的拜訪是瞭解大家做到什麼進度、卡到最重要的部分，是要認識窗口，也就是最瞭解這一件事的人，再者是找突破口，具體的提案、建議是什麼，一般來說提案有你的對象是誰、目標是誰，還有目前做的事到哪裡及解決的方案是什麼，有兩種類型，一種是質詢類型的提案、一種是你想要給建議的提案，我的提案偏後者，所以會看這整個事件脈絡完之後會給什麼樣的建議。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "要給什麼建議有一件事，會期是四個月一次，你想要的問題是院長裁示然後馬上解決的問題？或者是想要弄個半年或者是兩年，又或者是任期完都不會解決的事，這個是你們可以做的選擇，我沒有說哪一個比較好、不好，你要知道你提案有這幾種選擇可以用。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "其實我一開始第一個提案，大家要看場合也知道怎麼回事，不過我覺得第二屆的狀況可能比較不一樣，因為有前面的示範過，回去逐字稿看一看，看一下前幾屆，從第一年到第二年談的東西、申論不一樣，我覺得可以從後半年開始看，比較接近。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "還有一件事，我當時提案有很多顧慮，我顧慮的事情是，我到底要不要講跟我行業相關的事，因為事實上我真的知道我的業務、工作上的痛點，但是我用我的身分是否適合來講，這個東西我自己會有一些concern，但是我們的提案是有共同提案人要連署三個人以上才會通過。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "即便我有這個concern，也要共同連署之後才可以提出，這個問題大家也要注意，但是當其他人不幫你連署的時候，你要知道問題在哪，有一些連署是可以五個、十個或者是二十個人連署，但是就只有三個，狀況可能是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "謝宗震", "speech": "我覺得委員們互相共同發起一個提案是好的，因為想法比較多元、我們發現其實有一些狀況是一個委員提一個，然後其實那個案子，大家狀況也不是很清楚，你真的到院長問你共同的連署人有沒有意見的時候，共同連署人其實提不出來，當初只是認同這一件事就簽名了，我覺得互相討論這一件事是重要的，以上跟大家分享到這裡，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得你們這一屆提案要比我們更有壓力，資訊還沒有那麼透明，現在有網站，誰提了什麼案子，誰是主要的提案者、附議人、附議狀況如何，你們沒有拿到立法委員的pay，透明度跟立法委員可能會有一些差別，包含出席的次數，上面都會呈現，因此某個程度我覺得壓力滿大的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "我覺得滿棒的是，其實重點是青諮委員如果要期待有很高的改變效益，我覺得大家可能期待的程度有一些落差，但是有一些事滿重要的是，你會跟很多臺灣政務體系、行政體系，我們就講政治，你會更瞭解、更明白他如何運作，因為很多人在外面看會覺得不見得很好，有一種委員提這一個案子也是比較困難一些，可能真的要請政委才能解決，第二種就是案子沒有那麼複雜。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "像偉翔跟勞動部非常熟，他在提案之前，我跟勞動部的長官有問過一些建議跟想法，他有一些策略性的想法，像勞動部跟教育部要合作，你要他們兩個單位合作，其實有一些某個程度困難，所以這個時候的提案很重要，這個時候並不是要讓勞動部跟教育部陷他於不義，如果直接跟他講的時候，是勞動部直接來找我，那個感覺很不一樣，政哲在這個領域很久，在青年委員會，青輔會從高中到現在，他有非常多的經驗可以跟大家分享。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "大家好，我是政哲，提建議的部分，我覺得第一個很重要的是，過去我以前都會覺得青年委員或者是青年的聲音是進步的聲音，又或者是特別會需要的，我不確定哪一個委員到目前為止有沒有什麼想法，但是我記得在兩年前第一次進入這個會議的時候，我心理充滿幹而已，這種人也可以當青年諮詢委員，後來也會覺得怎麼也可以這樣，後來會覺得在委員會裡面會聽到很多資方代表的聲音、老闆的聲音，又或者是過去其他委員會裡面，也都會有各種團體代表透過他們的方法希望進到某個機制裡面去發聲，像廢除性平教育等等這一類的聲音，在這裡面是會有的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我覺得某些程度上，如果你在某些議題是有一些特別的想法，又或者是可以盡情展現你的特質讓所有的人知道，自然而然接近想法的人，就可能會聚集在一起，然後去push某一些事，因為這裡絕對不會只有一種方向或者是聲音，例如我們在談勞動教育，就會有很勞工的想法跟很老闆的想法，在這裡都會同時存在。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "這一些都很重要，並不會只有接近勞方的想法才重要，對我來說，這個是很大的提醒。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "另外，大家都會提到提案是很謹慎、重要的，需要專業完整、不要隨便。另外一個方法是，如果要改變政府部門在某些部分做事，提案絕對不是唯一的方法，又或者是就算提了案，列管了幾百年，他如果不想做，那還是一樣，因為有比你更多的方法可以來推托，又或者是一成不變的報告，會讓你覺得為什麼要來這裡。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "我們要瞭解的是，如何用這個議題到底可以從哪一些不同的方式、實際做這一些事的承辦人而言接觸是非常重要的，在過去可能不知道這一些議題是跟誰做的，最多是知道哪一個部會，你以為是這個部會，但是事實上並不是。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "現在在運作進行中是青年政策的盤點，當未來完成之後，至少青年署關心的某些政策或者是各部會覺得他們覺得這一些政策被盤點出來之後，相關的承辦人也會被列出來，這個會對大家更有幫助跟實際接觸這一些承辦人，當我們在第一屆好奇的時候、跟承辦人接觸的時候，他們最常接觸的問題是：為什麼從來沒有辦法當青年委員？他們的想法都接觸不到。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "但是在大會的時候，我們也接觸大會的長官、長官，在不同的長官接觸到他們的長官，也都期待我們的聲音或聯絡方式可以被他們知道，兩邊互相聯絡的關係之前是沒有辦法連結的，也許透過青年政策盤點之後，會有一些比較多的幫助在協助大家理解這一個議題。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "所以，不用有很完整的想法才提出來，而是當你有一些想法的時候，就有機會去找到相關利害關係人去瞭解他們到底已經做什麼事或者是正在做什麼事，又或者是在這個議題上，其他的利害關係人有哪一些共同關心，我自己在過去這一屆裡面，尤其是教育部相關的議題上，很多議題並不是在大會的會議上解決處理的，有很多是參與其他行政上所理解的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "他們的期待關心人，像老師等等，因為知道有這一些議題，所以會跟你分享想法，大家在各自的位置上盡可能突破，因為有些話可能不好講，有一些不方便提，因此在這一方面也做了一些很細節的要點上突破，又或者是改變，所以什麼東西才適合提到委員會、大會討論，也許可以從這樣的方法來分別。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "另外，大家也提到兩個不同院長的風格，我想要提的並不是對於哪一件事是否懂的問題，去參與這個會議的時候，通常主席做哪一些事，這可能是重要的，這個會牽扯到哪一些訊息在會議上可以處理，因為現在的院長是非常願意做裁示，在各種議題的發展上，其實會盡其政治責任做某個方向的確定，這個事情其實是重要的，當你知道這一個事情的時候，也許就可以把我們在跟各部會間協調討論搞不定的事，或者是部會認為要往這個方向做，部會不願意、無法說服的情況下，拉到這個會議上來做政治方向的裁示，如果還是裁示另外一個方向的話，就會為這樣的決定來負政治責任。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "林全院長所做的事是，他讓各部會、青年委員間做很多溝通、協調，又或者是抓出兩邊的歧異點，讓各部會躲不掉他們的對話他聽得出來委員所談的跟部會所談的是不一樣的事，但是你問了A、B回答，並不會輕易在那邊做裁示、處理，就要你們繼續處理、溝通與討論。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "如果我們熟悉這兩種主席不同的方式，我們就會知道為何會在這裡，因為如果兩種方向反了，可能就會造成不一樣的效果，所以是不是應該要謹慎、完整等等，更重要的是是不是應該要關心這個議題，這個議題是否是你所熟悉的，又或者是可以掌握到這一群當事人，在整個議題的發展上，在某些關鍵的轉折點上起一些關鍵作用的話，那可能是比較重要的，我覺得這裡是搭起橋梁非常好的機會。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "平常大群體的連結也是重要的，或許大家對於政策並不熟悉，又或者是議題不曉得如何切入，有一些有經驗的委員可以提供給大家協助，至少我自己也願意繼續做這樣的工作，想要關心某些議題或者是不知道怎麼做，但是就是要做這一方面的事，歡迎大家持續把我抓進去team裡面討論，協助大家如何把連結跟想法轉化成可能的方式去接近，我覺得團隊的感覺也比較容易產生，大家的時間是有限的，至於大家的時間如何連結起來是比較完整的時間且可運用的，我相信是重要的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "其他在上次會議當中，我自己也談了很多，大家可以去看逐字稿，查逐字稿是非常重要的管道與方法，可以知道這個長官在前面已經說了什麼話，如果前面說的話跟後面做的事是不一樣的事，就可以拿這一件事出來詢問，是不是我做過什麼事或者是方向上的改變等等，我覺得這個是政委辦公室用這樣的方法讓所有更多的管道或資源可以知道在各個決定上是誰做什麼樣的決定，或者是這個裁示、決議跟後面不一樣時，我們並不會找不到一些點或者是找不到理由，各位就是各說各話。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "即使面對逐字稿與會議紀錄，都還是會發生一份紀錄各自詮釋、揣測上意、決定要怎麼做，在這一次的會議當中，我曾經提到很多長官說：「我覺得政委說要改變，但是實際上她應該不想去做吧！所以我們應該不要往這個方向去。」即使看了逐字稿還有這一種（情況）時，在公部門揣測上意真的是非常嚴重，我們要如何減少這一件事，如何抓準發言紀錄等等，應該要怎麼樣等等，這可能是重要的。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "第一屆很多提案，我還有一些在列管中，不要讓他們輕易地解除管考，對議題有興趣的，我也歡迎有後續的聯絡，吳專委不在，如果大家有興趣的話，我非常願意可以成為大家的後盾；先這樣，後續也許可以有更多的討論。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "有機會可以看Wendy打的逐字稿，有很多表情符號，然後會有很多情境文字放在裡面，你看逐字稿仿佛身歷其境，我覺得這個很棒，大家都知道唐辦可以做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "堅實的逐字稿很重要，因為我講話並沒有那麼清楚的關係，可能會被聽成另外的話，所以要即時修正。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "後續談完之後你不知道什麼事，所以要知道怎麼樣，其實記錄到逐字稿之後，會議紀錄就會長那樣，就不會有會議紀錄的人員，或者是下面的單位有比較不一樣闡釋的方向，因為有時只有對談過程時，只有結論不知道是不是什麼，透過很簡單的提問，我們最後是往哪一個方向做，只要院長說「對」之後怎麼樣，如果不是那個想法的時候，現場有一些反映不會到後來才發現方向不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "吳政哲", "speech": "之前有一些經驗，說想要轉什麼議題的時候，就會說請問最後的情況，然後就會用逐字稿的內容問他是不是，他說對，那個東西就會被直接複製到決議，這個也幫助會務人員，不然每一次聽完討論，之前聽到這個情況，後來的詮釋是什麼，大家覺得往那個方向去，然後決定這樣子，大家覺得很開心，看到紀錄之後會發現講的不是同一件事，但是來不及了，因此在裡面確定是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "黃敬峰", "speech": "大家知道要熟悉政務體系很重要的事，就是要拍大合照，等一下主廚會幫大家處理晚餐，先拍一張大合照，我們就可以用輕鬆的方式，看有什麼問題或者你們可以問這一些手無寸鐵的學長姐們。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "非常感謝，大家今天撥空加這一場「新一代健保卡規劃」第三次協作會議，我是唐鳳政委的幕僚賴。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我代表唐鳳在這邊作一個開場的說明，各位可能會很好奇今天為何會開這樣的會議。最主要的原因是，健保署的健保卡案在政策非常初期的階段，所以藉由今天這樣會議的形式，邀請大家一起來想想看目前規劃的方向有沒有還不夠完善的地方，大家都可以提出一些相關的意見。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "過去大家提到公共政策是從新聞媒體上看到某某機關打算要做什麼事，民眾要發聲可能沒有很適當的管道。但還在一個政策還很前期、還沒有定案的狀況之下，邀請大家來開會，我們期待大家在今天的會議當中暢所欲言、腦力激蕩，試著想出當健保卡改成這樣子或者是朝某個方向做的時候會遇到什麼問題。各位與會者都有不同的身分，有醫師、藥師、護理師、一般民眾及資訊專家等等，藉由每一個不同的專業背景，一起來討論看看怎麼樣變得更好。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天記錄的形式有兩種，一種是我們在場有一位速錄師，在工作人員桌，負責每個人拿著麥克風講話的文字全部一字不漏記錄下來，在十個工作天之後在網路上公開討論的過程，所以不管是媒體朋友或者是關心健保卡政策的朋友也好，都可以透過網路上公開的逐字稿瞭解到這三場協作會議討論什麼、有什麼樣的建議，公部門做什麼樣的處理，都可以藉由逐字稿公開，一起鼓勵整個社會大眾更多人來關心這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第二，大家會有一點擔心拿著麥克風講的話，一字不漏被記下來，像如果怕口才不好、顛三倒四，網友會不容易閱讀。所以我們有十個工作天的時間會有編修，我現在講話用聽得大家都可以理解，但是用文字來看會覺得怎麼那麼不順，在今天會議之後，工作團隊會發逐字稿給大家，是一個連結，在這個連結編修，修自己講的話就好了，如果不小心修到別人講的話可以跟我們講，因為那個系統是我們寫的，我們可以回復，大家只要針對自己的發言修得順一點就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，在場也有攝影機，原則上是做影像紀錄，也可以問所有人說今天的影像如果大家同意，也可以併同逐字稿在網路上公開。當然如果有不同的意見，也可以把顧慮告訴我們。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "大家可能也會關心，為什麼現在還沒有看到唐鳳過來。唐鳳因為行程的關係，會在12點鐘左右跟大家一起用餐，跟大家一起完成下午的議程，會後也會把大家的意見連同前兩次的協作會議成果，在健保署這邊做一個小規模的試辦，試著做做看讓大家這麼多次討論的意見，在實務運作上有沒有什麼特別的狀況，所以這一次的會議原則上有兩個很大的重點，第一個是在政策很前期，所有的意見都來得及改、來得及讓公務同仁基於專業所想到的意見來修改，第二個是之後會有一個小規模的試辦，我們會試著做做看，如果走這樣的方法、程序做新的健保卡會不會遇到什麼困難，這個流程跟過去比較不一樣，是比較縝密的，希望run過、實驗過聽取各種不同的意見再來實作。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於上述的說明，有沒有任何的同仁覺得不瞭解或者是想要問更多的？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我簡單說一下今天會議室的布置，在各位討論區的部分有分成六組，每一組都有兩位工作人員，一位是健保署的同仁，一位是唐鳳團隊PDIS小組供大家討論，茶水在會議室有咖啡，門口外面有茶包跟白開水，有需要的朋友都可以自行取用。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "出門之後往左邊走到底再左轉可以看得到洗手間，今天的會議是比較輕鬆的方式，歡迎在場的所有人可以用比較放鬆的心態、開放心胸的方式來跟所有的朋友一起討論，接下來把麥克風交給主持團隊，交給張顧問，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "各位好，歡迎大家來到第三次健保卡規劃的協作會議，與會者的部分我會留到等一下介紹完今天的議程之後再讓大家做自我介紹、互相交流。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "先花大概10分鐘的時間跟各位解說一下今天我們協作會議會用什麼樣的流程、方法來討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天的議程設計方式是先讓大家瞭解今天的議程、討論的方式，接下來會讓大家自我介紹、讓健保署作簡報，以及讓大家可以有時間確認事實與釐清爭點，這兩件事都需要可以讓大家對於資訊的瞭解有共同的對齊，方便之後的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "針對簡報裡面有任何的問題，大家也會有時間可以提出，我們可以在這個時間裡面釐清，等到我們把應該釐清的資訊釐清之後，我們就會進入中場休息，接著會直接進入小組去分組協作，所以我們今天有分六組針對今天不同的（議題）討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天分的部分有針對健保卡目前方案的情境模擬、提出回饋及是否有更好的方式討論，所以這個討論會到12點30分結束，結束之後我們會一邊用餐、一邊瞭解六組分享的內容。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著，我們會有一個20分鐘的會議結論，彙整今天意見來作大家後續研議的參考。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "程序跟大家說明一下為什麼今天會在這邊，是因為現有健保卡規格不足因應未來的趨勢，今天要協作的內容是針對目前健保署所提的健保卡方案，可以讓各位去思考是不是還有可以改善的地方，如果可以改善的部分會是什麼及有沒有更好的方法。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以以整體的流程來看，我們今天是到開始做的階段，也就是會為一系列的方案來做更完整的討論，這個是今天的流程，但是我們先倒帶一下看一下今天做了什麼，所以今天要處理方案的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天是第三次的協作會議，之前有第一、二次的協作會議，第一次我們是先蒐集大家對於新一代健保卡新功能、期待與顧慮，所以先瞭解大家的需求跟顧慮之後，我們才去發展未來的可行性及可能的情境。這部分是在我們瞭解整體問題當中，是屬於我們在做需求盤點與一點需求歸納。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們在第一次協作後有做意見整理，這個資料可以在網站上搜尋，健保署先前寄給大家的簡報當中也有這些資料與連結。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一次協作之後就有做了意見整理，所以有把問題盤點再多盤點一些，也再多歸納一下。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一次跟第二次的會議之間，就有針對之前討論到點去歸納，有很重要的問題是要繼續討論的，因此這個部分是在確定問題定義的地方。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第二次因為問題確認之後，我們第二次討論就會針對已經定義的問題有沒有需要再補充，如果沒有補充的話，我們就繼續去探討新一代健保卡服務政策跟技術整體的概念會怎麼樣，也會在第二次協作會議當中作為法規及成本的評估，因此在第二個開始做的發展階段，就有把概念發展更完整及做初步的評估。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天我們走到的地方已經針對產出的方案，有沒有需要調整的地方是今天會請大家給予回饋，會是在（雙菱形）後面。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "協作會議討論之結果，將作為健保署後續試辦的參考。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "等一下的討論如果有不同的人，但是有同樣的意見，我們會把它當作一個意見、當作後續要歸納意見可以更方便，如果兩個人有不同的意見，我們會記成兩個不同的便利貼，這個是為了確保今天發言所提出來意見的多元性所設計的討論方式，希望今天可以互相聆聽、彼此交流意見。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們今天所邀請的參與者，等一下會讓各位自我介紹，可以清楚今天參與的角色，我們會儘量邀請多元的角色來參加今天的協作會議，比如有跨業務單位、專家學者、專家組織及可能受影響的人。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這些人在政策討論前期可以進入比較多元的對話方式，我們希望可以嘗試與執行的一件事，不像政策在制定的過程中，會被影響到的人最後才知道，而是在一起規劃的時候就可以聆聽各個不同角色的人意見，依照意見去發展相對應的服務、系統與政策。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "因為剛剛把自我介紹的時間移到後面，所以接下來的時間會先讓各位自我介紹，方便等一下討論時會知道今天有誰可以一起交流。自我介紹完之後，可以把時間交給張組長簡報。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來傳麥克風的方式自我介紹，簡短就可以了，說一下姓名、匿稱、自己的單位，還有今天為何會被邀請來協作會議與這一場會議主題角色的關係。" }, { "speaker": "邱逸淳", "speech": "長官、各位與會的同仁大家好，我是邱逸淳，我本身是泌尿科醫師，服務的單位是台北市立聯合醫院，我負責的是品管中心、泌尿科、忠孝院區的外科，今天可能是醫生的角色，在醫學會裡面，我也是資訊跟線上教育委員會的主委，所以來看看今天有沒有什麼收獲跟可以提供的意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "大家好，我是PDIS的成員，我是第一桌的桌長雨蒼。" }, { "speaker": "徐維志", "speech": "大家好，我是第一桌分組偕同主持人，我在業務管理組，主要是負責健保卡IC卡上傳跟就醫資料的登錄業務，希望今天能夠蒐集到各與會代表的意見，可以提供未來執行業務的參考，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴曉虹", "speech": "謝謝大家早。我是賴曉虹，在宅醫療學會理事，我應該是使用者，就是第一線提供在宅醫療的醫師，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "大家好，我叫陳鵬文，我是健保署資訊服務廠商，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "各位長官、醫藥界的前輩同仁大家好，我是明媛，我是台北市藥師公會的社區藥局主委，我本身服務於社區藥局，今天代表藥師公會全聯會來參加這個會議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林政宏", "speech": "各位大家好，我是中山醫學大學附設醫院的資訊室主管，跟健保卡彼此間溝通業務上的關聯，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "林治萱", "speech": "大家好，我是林治萱，可以叫我Maya，我代表臺灣在宅醫療學會過來這邊開會，我本身是一個居家護理師，也是失能者的家屬，所以會為別人服務，也會服務別人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "大家好，我是孫浩淳，代表健保署的資訊部門，今天的結論都是未來執行面的參考，我想這是我今天參加的目的，同時我也是第二組的協同主持人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林書漾", "speech": "大家好，我是書漾，我是第二組的桌長，今天有協助第二組做討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "大家好，我是蕭怡萍，我目前服務於和信醫院，之前有櫃台的經驗，現在是做費用申報人員，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳權忠", "speech": "大家好，我叫陳權忠，現在在台大醫院的資訊室服務，所以今天希望提供資訊相關意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉家菱", "speech": "大家好，我是代表家長，我現在有一對雙胞胎，早上才因為小孩子生病，爸爸、媽媽有一點找不到健保卡，所以耽誤了一點時間，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳昕", "speech": "大家好，我是健保署承保組吳昕，今天在第四組是負責搭配芳睿擔任偕同主持人，至於署內是負責健保卡發卡業務，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王雪如", "speech": "大家好，我是王雪如，我是台大醫院的藥師，很高興今天能夠參加協同會議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "大家好，我是吳厚臻，我代表年輕族群來開會，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "魯美玲", "speech": "大家好，我是台北業務組，聯服中心，我現在目前是在處理健保卡業務在現場換發的這一些處理作業，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張郁敏", "speech": "大家好，我是郁敏，目前服務在三總中山分院護理之家，今天是第二次來開會，之前第一次是在居家護理，所以剛好業務上遇得到健保卡這個部分，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王復中", "speech": "大家好，我叫王復中，我也是在健保署工作，我工作的單位是企劃組，也是這次健保卡規劃協作會議的主辦單位，今天的角色其實是協助Mark在這個小組擔任主持的工作。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "大家好，我是Mark，我今天本來是第四組，臨時被換到第三組，我是第三組幫忙收整意見的主持人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "楊榮林", "speech": "大家好，我是楊榮林，我目前在台中中國醫藥大學附設醫院服務，我是資訊人員。今天會來我想是因為醫院協會有資訊主管組成的資訊小組，我想我們對以後的改變、對醫院流程的影響都會比較有興趣，我們也應該要探討一下，所以這應該是我今天來的主要目的。" }, { "speaker": "邵慧玫", "speech": "大家早，我是邵慧玫，目前在三重惠心婦幼診所當護理長，我今天會來是因為全聯會請我過來當代表，因為我在新北市護理師的診所代表當理事，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林啟文", "speech": "各位早，我目前在林口長庚醫院醫療事務處擔任行政管理人員，我想就這個議題，我們是第一線使用者一些經驗的探討，以上。" }, { "speaker": "王建人", "speech": "蔡副署長、各位在座的長官、今天與會的各位同仁，我叫王建人，我代表醫師全聯會，因為我同時也是診所醫師，在醫院有兼任醫師，所以我今天是代表單位來，第一次我有參加協作會議，也得到不少的資訊，我希望今天透過這樣的機會能夠學習更多，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "各位長官好，我是臺灣科技大學的士朝，我個人其實在2010年在手機有NFC開始，就已經研究NFC相關的技術，在前年我們也有分析一些BLE的技術，有一些協定，所以對於一些近場通訊、無線傳輸有一些研究，所以今天主要就技術方案來講，如果各位有一些建議的話，我們可以協助評估如何完成，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "胡中武", "speech": "大家好，我是胡中武，我今天是以健保署資訊人員的身分來參與會議，我同時也是第五組的偕同主持人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "詹壹雯", "speech": "大家好，我是壹雯，我是PDIS的成員，是第五組的桌長，和大家一起參與討論，協助大家收整意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李佩臻", "speech": "大家好，我是李佩臻，我是長庚大學醫管系的學生，今天代表學生族群來參與會議。" }, { "speaker": "卓致遠", "speech": "大家好，我是卓致遠，我今天是以互動設計師的身分來參加。" }, { "speaker": "陳立明", "speech": "大家好，我是陳立明，我今天代表藥師公會全國聯合會診所組過來參加這個會議，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "田菡", "speech": "大家好，我是田菡，我目前是診所醫師，不過因為剛剛離開醫院不久，代表比較年輕的醫師族群來跟各位分享意見。" }, { "speaker": "葉蓮瑛", "speech": "大家好，今天是第二次來參加，我是社區醫院代表，代表小醫院的心聲，所以今天也來取經，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "李待弟", "speech": "大家好，我是李待弟，我是健保署醫審及藥材組，負責醫療雲端系統作業的工作，今天是第六組的偕同主持人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "各位好，我是行政院PDIS小組的賴致翔，今天協助第六組來作意見的收整，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉景三", "speech": "大家好，我來自於衛福部資訊處的葉景三，我們科主要是負責衛生、醫療的資訊化業務，我同時也是營運醫事憑證管理中心，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝大家的自我介紹，接下來請健保署的張組長幫我們說一下這個案子的相關規劃。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "大家早，我是健保署企劃組，我是張鈺旋，今天非常高興有機會能夠跟大家報告第三次協作會議，我們在這邊準備這麼久的時間，第三次協作會議給大家全部的簡報內容。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "等一下我會掌握時間，在簡報時間之內，也會播放情境的影片，讓大家更瞭解虛擬健保卡的環境。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "為何要開協作會議？我想剛剛張芳睿顧問有跟大家說明，協作會議是要蒐集大家的意見，推動未來健保卡的改革，讓這個新規劃能夠符合民眾與使用者端的需求，協作會議是不會做政策的決議，只會釐清這個議題跟可能解決的方法，我們陸續做政策研議的參考。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "整個新一代的健保卡，我想跟大家比較完整時間軸的說明，主要的原因是在今年4月份，衛福部有報一個案子到行政院，經過國發會的審議之後有一個「政府行動生活政策目標」，希望健保卡的改革能夠具更前瞻，以符合數位國家方向。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "在這樣的背景之下，我們在7、8月份陸續開了兩次的協作會議，當然兩次的協作會議有一些討論重點，我想今天討論的貴賓都有拿到簡報的資料，也給大家參考。過了這個時間之後，我們在11月26日召開第三次的協作會議，未來也會按照協作會議的想法來作後續的規劃。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我們今天在第三次的協作會議，主要目標是希望今天與會者、所有參與的夥伴，能夠針對健保署所提的健保卡改革方向來幫我們提出健保卡使用流程上是不是有可以改善或者是調整的空間，或者是提出更好相關的辦法，我們後續會從試做的方案裡面來作更好的嘗試。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "今天的協作方案，我們基於前面兩次的協作會議，有討論出健保卡改革的三個重點：" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第一個重點是虛實併行，什麼是虛實併行？我們雖然有虛擬健保卡，但是實體健保卡仍然要保留限制，逐步發展虛擬健保卡，這個是虛實併行，這個是兩次討論出來的重點。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第二個是試辦計畫，虛擬卡的健保卡模式，我們會先進行試辦，等到測試好之後才會全面上線，並不會一開始就做全部虛擬卡的環境。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第三個重點是就醫為主，健保卡主要是做醫療上的使用，不會再增加其他的功能，這個是我們在兩次協作會議得到整體的政策方向。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我們今天主要的部分會討論在幾個重點：" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第一，在申請領卡的部分，因為涉及到我們民眾跟櫃台的同仁，所以這一個部分是我們等一下會跟大家做比較詳細的說明。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "拿了健保卡之後，我們想到的是，接下來我們的就醫流程會有哪一些可能的情境，可能的情境會是居家情境，也有可能是一般門診看診的情境，也有提出虛擬卡的三個方案，尤其是居家情境是藍牙讀卡機方案，門診看診情境會是用條碼掃描方案，或者是NFC感應方案，這個部分是我們在就醫流程上從掛號、報到、資料讀寫的就醫流程，我們嘗試用幾個不同的情境、解決方案再跟大家詳細說明。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第三個，我們可能會想到一個很重要的點，萬一我們的實體卡或者是虛擬卡遺失了，那被冒用該怎麼辦？" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "還沒有說明之前，我們回過頭跟大家討論一下有關於授權機制，這個授權機制講的是，未來虛擬健保卡是不是有授權機制？是不是讓別人來使用行動裝置來就醫？比如現在的小孩子可能沒有手機，爸爸是不是可以把小孩子的健保卡線上授權，由媽媽帶他去看病，這個部分是因為所謂授權機制，第一個部分是管理上的問題，因為有可能一個人同時會有多張健保卡存在的情況，對於系統管理者或者是醫療院所的人員在辨識病人的情況loading會增加，這個是管理上的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第二個是安全上的考量，因為未來實體健保卡仍然會存在，所以我們認為實體健保卡交付照顧者保管就醫，比較符合安全上的考慮。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第三個是法律上的問題，因為授權的對象跟範圍會隨時作一些調整，因此這一些會增加很多未來的糾紛，所以基於我剛才跟大家報告管理上的問題、安全上的考量及安全上的問題，因此我們在前面兩次討論授權機制的試辦，我們暫不納入，當然這個是我們現在所提出來的建議，或許等一下與會所有的夥伴在今天會上，你們可以再思考這一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我們想一下在這樣的前提之下，未來虛擬卡要申請領卡時，我們去想像民眾怎麼樣去申請虛擬卡呢？首先，如果今天是一個新的申請者，也就是要新申請虛擬卡，或者是要換發虛擬卡的情況之下，民眾必須要臨櫃辦理，必須要有一個照片的證件，像身分證或者是其他的證件佐證。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "同時，在實體卡或者是身分證有證件佐證的情況之下，現場綁定、數位化建檔，這個是民眾端的部分。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "在民眾行動裝置的部分，例如手機一個人只能限申請一張虛擬卡，所以換句話說，一台行動裝置可以綁定一張虛擬卡，如果他更換了手機的話，他就要重新來申請綁定新的虛擬卡，這個是目前的說明。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我們在申請換發卡之後，接下來要去看病了，在看病的時候，可以知道現在有部分的民眾是屬於居家醫療的環境，所以在居家情境的部分，目前我們在健保署這邊也有一些初步的規劃，我們是用藍牙讀卡機的方案。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "首先在民眾端的部分，從民眾的角度要做什麼事？當然要準備一張實體卡，要提供居家訪視團隊，然後看診完，會有進行皮夾及電子處方箋領藥。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "在居家團隊準備的東西就會比較多，居家團隊訪視的部分，在做個案居家訪視的時候，前提要配合做一些前提條件，第一個是必須要申請中華電信，也就是4G VPN的行動上網，也要準備台藍牙讀卡機，準備台APP讀卡程序，醫事卡先與雲端SAM認證、健保卡再進行認證，就可以讀寫民眾健保卡查詢個案居家訪視的資料，這個是要上雲端查詢系統查詢，就診之後會進行皮夾跟電子處方箋。如果有網路不穩定或者是離線的狀況，我們會用離線卡片的簽章再用例外的方式來處理，這個是居家的就醫流程。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外一個可能的環境，從民眾的角度，民眾到底如何來看病？第一個部分，我們的民眾是綁定的虛擬健保卡，會有一次性的條碼、通行碼來作就醫憑證，可能有一個條碼或者是QR code，讓醫療人員來作一次性的輸入，讓他輸入通行碼以辨識民眾的資料，可以看到民眾照片的容貌來確認身分。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "接下來是進行看診程序，就會進行皮夾及處方箋的領取，這個就是在OTP的掃描方案，這個會產生一次性的條碼。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "在醫療院所的部分，我們要準備什麼東西？醫療院所端必須要準備「條碼掃描器」，在HIS系統也要部分修正，就醫資料也要在24小時之內上傳健保卡資料庫，民眾如果有虛擬卡設定個人密碼時，當然也要一併驗證，這個是假設民眾有個人密碼的話。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "醫療院所要配合的部分，是在這邊之後，當民眾來看病的時候，醫療院所就要做掃描或者是用人工輸入的條碼，讓院所螢幕來顯示民眾的資料，並且確認身分。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "在雲端資料端的部分，我們可以作資料的讀寫，也可以作跨院所的查詢，這個部分是網路有連線的情況之下，這個部分是可以有這樣的方式，接下來是所謂的看診、批價及處方箋的提供，這個是有關於第二種OTP的掃描方案。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外一個方案，我們針對非接觸式卡片NFC的感應方案，這個部分在民眾部分也是一樣要有虛擬健保卡，開啟虛擬健保卡啟動NFC感應功能之後，民眾去看病，同時到醫療院所端看病的時候，會跟HIS連線並進行感應，並且做身分上的確認，同時也要做看診的動作。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "當看完了診、看診結束之後，後續要做批價跟處方箋的領取，同時也是用他的健保卡來做後續批發價跟處方箋的作業。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "NFC這個技術，目前在iPhone是還沒有完全開放的，這個部分仍然有待於克服。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "在民眾端講完之後，我們來看院所端的部分，同時也要準備讀卡機，但是是要準備NFC的無線讀卡機，費用是1,000元左右，同時也要做HIS系統的改變跟修正，同時也要做資料就醫紀錄，也就是24小時內上傳健保卡資料庫。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "虛擬卡有設定個人密碼的話，也要同時要做驗證的手續。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "醫療院所端在這樣的前提之下，其實跟剛剛的OTP是很像的，只有準備讀卡機是不太一樣的部分，HIS系統端要做配合與修正。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "醫療人員要如何處理呢？當民眾來看病的時候，會用NFC的感應器來感應，而且會跟醫療院所的HIS來連線，這時我們醫療院所的螢幕上同時也會顯示民眾的基本資料來作身分上的確認。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "這個資料是離線可用的，也就是資料放在虛擬卡的時候，跨院是可以讀取跟裝置，這個是離線可以使用的，可以作雲端查詢系統，也可以作批價作業跟提供。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "講了非常多的方案之後，我們稍微作一些簡單的解釋，也就是說，藍牙讀卡機適用的是居家情境，OTP跟NFC是用在們診看診上，民眾健保卡是用實體卡，但是在OTP或者是NFC的部分，我們在一般院所看病的就診程序，我們可以考慮到虛擬卡的存在，是可以用虛擬卡來看病的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "不過剛剛提到的是OTP有一個問題，當資料是沒有辦法做讀寫裝置，必須要靠網路上的雲端，這個是OTP在這一個案子提到的限制。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "NFC的感應方案裡面，資料可以讀寫裝置，在實體卡也可以用，但是有一個問題是iPhone還沒有開放，在未來的部分要突破，這個部分要請各位參考。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "大家一定很好奇未來虛擬卡的欄位、實體卡的欄位是否一樣，我們在這邊跟大家解釋，未來虛擬健保卡的機制與實體卡，其實對民眾來說都是一樣的，也就是說，在卡片的欄位跟存取權限的部分，未來的虛擬卡跟未來的實體卡是一樣的，當然在醫師人員資料讀取上也跟現在的實體卡是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "最後一個部分我們想像一下，民眾如果今天健保卡是實體卡、虛擬卡是遺失的，那怎麼辦？如果民眾的實體卡是存在，他可能手機掉了，他可能必須要重新做虛擬卡的重新註冊、申請，這個部分要重新申請，可以自行登錄我們的網站，或者是我們的APP來註銷、臨櫃辦理，這個是我們提到的是實體卡還在，但是實體卡不在。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外一個情況是實體卡丟掉了，我們那張健保卡不見了，但是手機還在，如果實體卡因為遺失辦理註銷，實體卡會失效，因此要臨櫃跟健保署申請虛擬卡，也就是實體卡不在，虛擬卡是手機還在的情況之下。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "還有一種情況是實體卡跟手機全部都掉了，那就是要全部來申請。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "今天在協作會議有幾個議題是不討論，也麻煩請與會者等一下能夠幫我們再確認：" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第一，健保卡與未來國民身分證是否合併的議題是不討論的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第二，有關健保卡要不要做憑證的功能，這個部分我們是不討論的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第三，與醫療院所使用無關的內容，例如要不要做行動支付或者是做其他用途的部分，這個部分我們也是不討論的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第四，有關於生物辨識，像瞳孔或者是指紋這一些生物辨識的資訊，這個部分我們也不討論，我們討論的部分只針對剛剛我跟各位報告的那三個方案，未來虛擬卡在就醫情境上或換發卡所討論的內容。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "使用情境的模擬，也就是跟各位報告的利害關係人來做摘要，這個部分有可能在領卡是民眾行政人員，在就醫的部分是民眾櫃台、護理人員或者是醫師等等，在不同的情境上有不同的利害關係人，也麻煩大家多幫我們看看。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我剛才這樣子講，也很難進入到實際上的情境，這個部分也非常感謝健保署的同仁來作今天的角色扮演，在這邊能夠在很短的時間之內讓大家清楚瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "非常謝謝大家耐心觀看我們的影片，今天最後簡報的部分，我們有一個線上提問sli.do的裝置，您可以用手機來作這樣的掃描之後，進入到我們的sli.do畫面中，當然可以提到有關的提問，我們等一下也會盡業務單位可以提供的部分來跟大家解說。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "如果今天不方便解說的部分，也許今天會上希望各位與會者能夠再幫我們做一些腦力激蕩或者是共同討論的議題，非常謝謝大家今天耐心聆聽我們的簡報，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來進入到確認事實釐清爭點的部分，如果有不好意思舉手，都可以進行提問，希望現場提問都可以幫我們舉手，可以幫我們解說。接下來請雨蒼幫我們主持接下來的部分。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "請問在場的人有沒有看到剛剛的影片有任何的疑惑？" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第一題是：「虛擬卡若民眾設定密碼，之後使用時忘記密碼，如何處理？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第二題是：「電子處方箋是否也包含慢箋或管制藥品專用處方箋？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第三題是：「試辦期是否每個人可同時擁有實體卡+虛擬卡各一, 並可交叉使用 ? 或擇一 ?」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第四題是：「實體卡現有讀寫卡方式(一般讀卡機)與功能是否續用？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第五題是：「病人就醫取卡號與6次更新流程不變？」" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "有一些題目是等一下開會要討論的前提，我們六桌都有健保署協同人員來協助，因此我等一下找你們的話，就麻煩你們回答一下。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第一個部分應該是有關於虛擬卡民眾來設定密碼時，這個密碼忘記要如何處理，是不是吳昕可以幫忙回答？" }, { "speaker": "吳昕", "speech": "有關於第一題，如果虛擬卡忘記密碼的話，按照目前的原則是要請民眾重新臨櫃處理，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "第二個麻煩請醫管的維志幫忙回答。" }, { "speaker": "徐維志", "speech": "各位大家好，這邊講的電子前方前應該是指居家醫療服務現在要設藍牙讀卡機配合APP所設計的電子處方箋，電子處方箋目前規劃是有包括一般處方箋跟慢性病處方箋，管制藥品的處方箋部分，我們也在規劃中，這個部分涉及管制藥品的條例，這個部分要跟主管單位確認，如果沒有問題的話，以後我們的電子處方箋，就可以包括一般處方箋跟慢性病處方箋，也可以用管制藥品專用處方箋。" }, { "speaker": "徐維志", "speech": "只是在管制藥品處方箋的部分會有限制，像慢性處方箋，如果屬於一、二級的管制藥品不可以用慢行病的處方箋方式來開立，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "這個部分我想會持續納入檢討與研議，這個是有關於慢性的部分。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "接著是有關於試辦期是否每個人未來會有實體卡、虛擬卡，等到今天會議開完之後會進行下一階段的評估，也就是試辦方案的評估，我們會把問題記下來。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外一個部分是有關於實體卡與讀寫方式的部分，這個部分麻煩浩淳解說一下。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "目前已經在進行中的東西，我們都會繼續使用，因為一開始的前提就有提到這個是虛、實併行的做法，所以實體的做法，只要對大家來講是可以接受或者是還ok的方式，我們都會繼續使用。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外，有關於就醫流程的六次更新應該是沒有改變的，是不是要請維志補充說" }, { "speaker": "徐維志", "speech": "明？" }, { "speaker": "徐維志", "speech": "未來虛擬卡的部分，病人就醫取卡號跟未來設定六次就要更新就醫需要的部分，未來虛擬卡跟現在實體卡的規劃是一樣的方式。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "接下來兩個問題都是針對NFC的部分，包含NFC讀寫的資料量及如果手機沒電，我們現在不回答，等一下提供給今天與會者會上來討論，這個是技術性的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外一個部分是……" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "我覺得NFC的問題可以盡可能澄清的話，等一下討論的時候就不用每一桌都各自澄清，看看是不是有技術人員可一幫忙回答一下，我建議是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "等一下再看一下，等一下有機會再回來看一下。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "另外一個部分是……" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do：「居家沒有網路，處方如何儲存回醫院上傳？是否實體健保卡也會儲存資料/平板電腦是否會儲存資料？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do：「門診時在雲端讀過去就診資料時要花多少時間？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "就我所知，雲端並沒有大改，所以這個部分照常，如果健保署的朋友覺得需要澄清，可以再回答一下。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do：「居家醫療網路不穩的情況領藥要去哪領？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "事後再領，看有沒有要一起澄清這個問題？我想這個是等一下要澄清的問題。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do：「醫事卡未來是否也會虛擬化？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "這個是健保卡的虛擬化，醫事卡虛擬化之後再……" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "有關於NFC提到技術性的問題，也就是存量的問題，浩淳是不是可以稍微回答一下？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "今天討論的虛擬卡是用手機當載體，如果手機剛好沒電或故障或發生什麼原因，或者是自己忘記開機密碼，後面很多東西沒有辦法執行，包含沒電也是這樣子，我們也不敢預期未來醫療院所會不會提供免費充電讓你救急之類的，這個是屬於院所端的服務，這個很多功能都不能使用，我想這個是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "接著，有關於虛擬卡讀寫資料可以多大？可以離線讀取各種資料嗎？我想這個是看今天討論的結果，我們未來虛擬卡的部分，未來是在手機上儲存，把手機上當成卡片，手機上當成多少資料，手機的容量遠大於目前的健保卡，這個是無庸置疑的，但是相對來講，手機上如果存放越多資料，會有資安風險的問題，存取資料時間相對來講也會長很多，這是取捨的問題，在紀錄上我想都可以做得到。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝這邊的回應。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do：「居家若無網路處方是如何儲存回醫院上傳？是否實體健保卡也會儲存資料/平板電腦？」" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "這個是不是技術問題？" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "中武是不是可以回答？" }, { "speaker": "胡中武", "speech": "其實在我們規劃的方案裡面，我們是有設計所謂的離線儲存部分，我們規劃是有一個介面，未來可以讓他回院所，可以比較容易來銜接院所的部分。" }, { "speaker": "胡中武", "speech": "「實體健保卡也可儲存資料？」我覺得這個問題並沒有很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "胡中武", "speech": "居家（看診）資料的部分，是要用藍牙讀卡機來搭配APP，這個是必須要做到跟診間很類似的部分，我不知道這樣有沒有回答到問題。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝說明。" }, { "speaker": "王建人", "speech": "在門診的時候，我這邊有一個問題想要請教健保局，在讀卡的時候，是不是知道要花多少的時間？這個影響到診間看診程序的流暢度。" }, { "speaker": "李待弟", "speech": "基本上現在上雲端的速度很快，第一個病人因為要三卡認證，估計10秒內，後續的病人會很快，1秒以下，第一個病人要認證，後續只有病人卡是需要換卡，所以速度會非常地快。" }, { "speaker": "王建人", "speech": "實務面並沒有那麼快，我不知道跟你們的認知怎麼會有這樣的差距，這個是看診的流暢度。" }, { "speaker": "王建人", "speech": "這個病人早上是在醫院，現在是在診所，我們在資料上，這個會不會有leg或者是沒有顧到的情況？" }, { "speaker": "葉蓮瑛", "speech": "健保卡的資料上傳會有一些時間的落差，剛剛提到速度的問題，其實有幾個因素，第一個是HIS端的設備、一個是網路、一個是系統面，如果是個案我們個案來處理，通案的話，現在速度都很快。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "我想要請問一下，您所說的速度是剛插卡進去到系統打開來的速度，或者是之後上傳藥歷的速度？" }, { "speaker": "王建人", "speech": "我們希望很快看到病人的資料，因為病人說實在在看診當中，這個流程事實上病人一直在問問題，甚至是在檢查，但是我們要看他的資料，所以中間在剎那當中，我們看這麼多的資料，說實在的，我們醫生也會loss一些東西，但是也沒有忘記怎麼看，我們要看電腦資料、要聽，甚至要檢查，甚至到雲端去看過去那一些病歷資料，其實對醫生來講的負擔是滿大的。" }, { "speaker": "王建人", "speech": "我覺得在整個過程中是要考慮到醫療工作者在現場當中到底能不能很完整地掌握整個醫療資訊。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "我理解了，您提出來的建議是，這並不是讀取資料的問題，而是健保署的未來虛擬卡規劃或者是健保卡的改善有無辦法去融合到醫生目前的看診流程，讓醫生的看診流程可以更順暢，並不是因為技術上的問題，而導致醫生要一心多用，這個可以先記錄下來，讓健保署來作參考，看後續有沒有機會來改善流程。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "非常感謝，就是就醫流暢度的問題，希望在醫事端就醫的流暢度，這個就給業務單位參考。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "這個並不是健保署的業務，但是今天難得部裡面的資訊單位有來，在問的是有關於醫事人員虛擬卡的部分，這個是有相關的規劃，請葉科長說明一下，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "葉景三：" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "因為時間的關係，我儘量快速說明過去，如果沒有什麼需要回答，就先到這邊結束。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "接著是有關於偏鄉網路不穩，出門要預載資料。這個是有關於規劃流程，到下午的小組討論或許會更好一點。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "接著是雲端醫療資訊查詢是否會有因虛擬卡流程而有不同網站三卡驗證模式？" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "就我所知，目前確實有一些不一樣三卡認證的方式，不過這個也是下午的時候，我們會讓資訊人員來澄清，應該會比較快一點。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "居家醫療情況是否沒有用到虛擬卡，居家醫療情況，目前是沒有用到虛擬卡的，從影片上來看是沒有用到的，但是藥歷部分確實還是有用到虛擬卡的功能，虛擬卡可能開放與非健保APP綁定嗎？目前看起來應該是沒有，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "下面還有：「若使用健保虛擬卡、醫事人員卡未使用虛擬卡，院所需要準備太多讀卡設備」，我覺得這個是到下午的時候再來討論，就是有關於設備的部分，設備的部分後面這兩個其實也是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "我們進入到休息時間。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們休息時間有10分鐘，現在是10點25分，所以10點35分回來，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "不好意思，我們的討論時間差不多了，請各位就座。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我解說一下剛剛Q＆A的部分，我們是確認事實、釐清爭點，後面有三個問題是比較針對建議類的部分來提出問題，所以這部分，主持人會直接cue那三個問題直接接續到現在的討論，是因為這個原因，因為這個問題是屬於比較直接性的建議。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們會讓分組的主持跟助理主持，直接把大家的建議直接寫在海報上，會是我們最聚焦收攏意見的方式，所以如果有建議類的這些回饋，我們都會納到現在這個階段的時間來討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "先解說一下接下來討論的題目，這個部分是討論到12點30分，可以針對現在方案想要釐清或者是提出回饋與解法，都是在等一下的時間提出，我們等一下討論的題目會分成兩個階段：" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "第一，早上的時候，健保署已經有放過現在新提出方案的一些規劃，所以大家是不是可以針對現在提出這一些方案在使用流程上如果可以改善或者是調整的地方，可以請大家幫我們提出來，提出的方式會把大家的意見放在便利貼上，這個便利貼會有顏色，不用擔心，我們小組都會幫忙處理。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "分顏色是針對大家的回饋，我們是用綠色，針對比較嚴重的問題，我們會用黃色。有一些回饋是希望針對大家的意見來提出新方案，因此確保討論是可以往後推進的。如果有提出新的方案，可以比較清楚知道昨天提出來的疑問點，如果有問題就會用紅色的部分表示，如果有問題就會用解決方式，因此會有綠色的部分讓大家來提出解決辦法，第一個階段是提出問題，第二個階段是問題提出完之後才會想有什麼樣的解法，這個是我們接下來時間會用的部分。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "分組也稍微跟大家解說一下，我們有分成六組，一至二組討論的是居家醫療的情境，三至六組是討論門診看診的情境。居家醫療跟一般看診情境的流程是不太一樣的，所以我們會分成兩張不同的海報，針對不同的時間點來作紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "針對目前的解說有沒有問題？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果沒有問題的話，我們就交給每一組小組的領導來討論，這一個part的時間是到12點30分。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "各位下午好，我們開始進行下午的分組報告。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "各位等一下上台的時候，投放簡報時，可以把畫面放大展開，可以在台上滑一下，是不是可以請第六組上來報告。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "非常抱歉，我沒有發現桌上有麥克筆，所以字是細的。稍微報告一下我們這一組發生了什麼事，第一個流程是有關於虛擬健保卡的部分，我們在申請虛擬健保卡的時候，很重視的點是「第一次申請虛擬健保卡是要本人臨櫃來確認身分」，這個是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為考慮到現在社會環境，大家換手機非常頻繁，因此非常不建議換手機一定要臨櫃辦理，我們這邊有幾個解法，比較多朋友覺得可行的解法是，當我買了新手機的時候，應該要可以從A移轉到B手機。同時也有考慮到有年長的人不擅長操作3C產品，也可以臨櫃來處理A手機換到B手機的問題。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，我們也建議A手機換到B手機，其實除了到健保署相關機構之外，也可以用廣設點的方式，醫療院所的協助或者是社區型的藥局、診所願意協助的話，也許可以在有特定人協助的情況下來做A手機移轉到B手機的狀況；無論如何，比較傾向於不比照第一次申請健保卡必須本人臨櫃。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "紅色的部分是我們這一組有提到如果換手機一定要臨櫃的話，民眾會比較強烈反彈，因為大家對於市民上不管是網銀也好或者是電子支付也好，似乎都沒有非得要臨櫃處理的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們這一組的同仁也有提到，拿健保卡跟網銀或者是電子支付不見得這麼公平，因為網銀跟電子支付看到的都是財務資料，所以申請人可以自己負責，但是如果健保資料除了自己的資料之外，其實包含了醫療院所為了整個醫療流程的相關資料，所以不見得申請人可以完全對這個資料負責，這個地方其實是有不同意見的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "從「掛號櫃台」一直到「批價領藥」，我們都貼在上面，因為我們覺得這幾個流程是比較重要的。最重要的部分是，我們認為如果要用NFC來作虛擬健保卡感應的話，API要非常明確，讓所有的醫療院所在後端接進來的時候，都可以很清楚知道這個系統後續要怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "再來，有關於整個上路之前，包含官方、民間都要做非常多次的測試，要測試得夠清楚，讓整個路線能夠順、才能上路。測試的內容我們建議用情境來區分，比如人很多的時候怎麼辦，有的爸爸、媽媽拿小朋友的東西來掛號的時候怎麼辦，要分不同的情境。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "特別的是，這個情境流程要經過專家的協助，不是只有醫療院所或者是官方自己覺得這樣子好像順了就上路了，具體的建議是需要有專家來協助。專家協助之後特別是驗收，會有一段驗收的經過，這個驗收也是要依據之前測試流程、每一種情境來看，而不是有了功能就讓他上路。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "NFC這一件事也需要一些宣導，因為今天早上的簡報有提到蘋果的手機對NFC的支援沒有那麼完整，這裡有一些情報是可以跟蘋果談一些NFC是可行的，請健保署跟蘋果確認，如果要做NFC，超過一半的手機不能用好像哪裡怪怪的。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "NFC方案，我們會遇到一個狀況是，如果院所的人很多，會需要趕快讓櫃台人員消化掉，因此在櫃台的時候大家就可以進掛號、排隊，但是相關有一些撈資料的時候會比較慢，而是等到診間的時候再來處理。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "很多院所設備，特別是沒有那麼大型或者是沒有那麼忙的院所，對於設備的更新沒有那麼積極，如果設備比較舊，常常感應一、兩次沒有感應好。但現在是雙軌併行，暫時還是可以用實體健保卡，可能要有某種措施來鼓勵醫療院所更新設備。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我們這一組花很多時間在討論一些特殊的狀況，例如會友一些民眾在同一天看很多醫院，像早上看A醫院、下午看B醫院，最後同一天看六家。主要的原因是雲端病歷是24小時內上傳，並不是立即上傳，所以NFC可以改善這個功能的最主要原因是，如果所有的民眾，像多數的民眾都改用NFC看資料的話，那可以透過NFC暫存的資料可以說已經看過什麼院所、拿過什麼藥，可以避免這樣的情況。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "因為NFC可以存的資料比較多，健保卡、實體卡可以存的資料比較多，所以我們也覺得為了降低濫用醫療資源的情況之下，允許實體卡、虛擬卡間有某種程度的儲存資料不一致。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最後遺失處理的部分，我們認為遺失跟第一次申辦一樣，應該要臨櫃，是ok的。這邊可能要注意一個情況，常常有使用者換手機的時候，會認為手機換好，整個系統轉過去就關掉，舊手機就賣、丟了，忘了健保卡的憑證或者是虛擬健保卡要移轉，所以其實有很多遺失處理，可能會處理我們有沒有掉手機，但因為前一次忘記換，所以只好回過頭從遺失處理再走一次。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "關於「模擬專家」，你說的「專家」是領域專家或者是流程設計的專家？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "可能是流程設計的專家。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第五組有沒有朋友要報告？" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "主席、各位好，第五組由我來報告，我們先提一下這一組做的部分是針對NFC的方案，NFC的方案我們再focus一下，我們著眼的是用手機模擬成卡片NFC的方案，NFC其實一般有兩種，一種是我的手機可以當讀取機、一個是當卡片的方案，我們目前走的是手機當卡片的方案，所以基本上來講，使用上會跟現在健保卡，也就是用非接觸式讀卡機是一樣的概念。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "我們先講一下跟一般用實體卡到底有什麼樣的好處？" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "第一，因為有做APP可以即時更新，因為我們現在知道看起來目前不會有實體卡，但我們會希望慢慢能夠調整實體卡內部的SDK或者是API的部分。虛擬卡的好處是，我們可以先在過程中，可以動態加入一些新功能，因為實體卡要換發卡片，這個滿麻煩的，我們有一些實驗性的功能去作一些功能上的擴充。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "接下來，因為虛擬卡有做APP，APP其實可以開一個API去提醒你忘了掛號的部分。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "接下來，像有時我們常常看病的時候，就會忘了繳費或是忘了領藥，然後就跑了，基本上我看完病之後，如果用APP的話，基本上可以得 到這樣的資訊。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "最主要的概念是，就實體卡來講，我們現在在做雲端藥歷，有些時候資料是要批次做一些上傳，這跟第六組講的也一樣，因為資料要批次上傳，所以很多時候看健保快易通，一些吃藥的資料無法即時讀到，如果用APP模式，尤其是NFC的模式，可以先取得那一些資料，所以可以在手機上看到藥品的資料。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "這個是一般來說跟實體卡的好處，我們用NFC的角度，我們再跟QR code比較，相較於QR code的話，一般來說，以現在健保卡來講，一般會有四個主要的功能，第一個是識別使用者的身分，第二個是可以識別今天是不是在某一個醫療院所看診，第三個是識別醫師的資料，我可以說診所或者是醫生是不是可以存取資料來做離線資料存取的功能。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "相較於QR code，使用NFC的方式來講，最大的好處是有離線資料儲存的功能，因此以QR code來講可以做到識別使用者的身分，如果用NFC的方式，是可以做到識別使用者，當然相對來講識別使用者是在實用上最複雜的地方，也要跟醫療院所的認證、醫事人員的認證，這其實還要走原本的做法。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "我們回到（表格）第二排的最前面（說明）。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "我們做這一些事通常會有困難，剛剛已經講了滿多，而是今天當我有多張卡的時候，如何做處理？其實這一種狀況有滿多不一樣的做法，舉一個例子來說好了，像有一些交通卡，如果各位去日本，日本有3卡APP的話，我一吸過去的話，很快講一下，我的卡片就不行，信用卡的話，其實有兩張卡都可以用，我們到底要如何做同步，這個是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "接下來我的虛擬卡來講，像現在有銀行線上辦理的機制，例如開一些LINE去看，這當然是好處。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "接下來，因為現在是就醫六次，如果是APP的話，我們這一次是六次要更新這個地方，我們其實可以再做一些討論，如果沒有繳費，就會立刻檢查，不一定要等到六次才去做檢查；當然最大的問題是iPhone不能支援，通常要同時支援iPhone跟Android來講，通常是要用QR code。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "可能要再確認一下，因為Apple要開放的是SDK的模式，一種是進SE卡之後，而是卡片模擬模式，另外一個是NFC的模式，所以這個程式Android的部分要另外考量，看一下第二排的部分。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "另外，如果虛實整合的話，讀卡機可以合一嗎？其實現在有很多可以做雙卡合一的讀卡機，醫師當然會建議能夠讓醫療院所的裝置越少越好，這是一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "當然在功能面上來講，寫入如果未完成，其實我們可以知道這沒有辦法完成，這也是他的好處，因為現在HIS可以檢查資料有無寫入。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "接下來的問題是，如果虛擬卡要把資料同步到雲端，可不可以做一些解決？我可以很快把這個地方講完，這個是難度的問題，因為基本上如何要整合醫事人員卡的部分，這個議題是滿難的，我們要再做一些考量，現在就卡在這邊，這個是主要的問題。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "最後，其實我們要用這一件事的時候，如果我們用卡片出去的話，其實卡片離手沒有關係，APP會有鎖定的功能，如果拿出去太久，APP可能就鎖了，如果讓人家可以一直開著，又擔心被拿去盜刷，因此有一些trade off的議題，我分享到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "儘快把它講完好了。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "領藥我們有一些離線的處理，相較QR code，好處是可以有一些資料離線寫在手機裡面，但是還是有一些議題，看有沒有辦法讓他的資料去作同步，因此我們要設計一些讓手機的卡片，第一個是我們有一個policy，到底允許多張卡，如何讓資料同步等等的處理。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "基本上我們在做這一件事，虛擬卡讀寫來說應該可以跟流程做一些提醒，會更方便。但是我們現在說卡片模擬的方式，因為走的方式跟實體卡是一樣的，所以各位倒不用擔心我們是會對既有的做法差太多，只是讀取的模式會多了，像這邊有提到如果是管制藥品等等，其他的使用方式也是一樣。" }, { "speaker": "查士朝", "speech": "手機遺失的部分，像如果遺失還要再回臨櫃辦理，其實會比較麻煩，如果到醫療院所的話，人力不足，這個也是一個問題，因此這個建議一些程序來作處理，以上，謝謝，不好意思，佔用各位的時間。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "感謝第五組，有沒有人要補充？" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "一組報告的時間是7分鐘，時間到會提醒您加快速度，但是盡可能報完。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "大家好，由我來為大家分享一下我們這一組的討論。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "我們這一組討論的是QR code的部分，整個來看其實我們會認為這個方式是方便的，但是方便的前提下，可能還有我們等一下會提到的一些問題，如果這一些問題能夠解決的話，其實對於整個看診的過程，相較於現在是比較順暢的。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "首先我們看一下我們在討論時有提到像要登入APP之後，然後要掃QR code，我記得每一次登入APP的時候，都要敲帳密的，敲入之後使用的週期要多久？看到影片是每一個點都要拿出來，是不是每一次都要敲帳密，然後再登入，再讓院端掃QR code嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "還有一個是忘記密碼的問題，有提到要臨櫃辦理，可能要有事先的防堵機制，這個是事先防堵機制沒有錯，但是對民眾來講很不方便，因為都要臨櫃辦理。建議事後稽核罰款，讓民眾不會忘記密碼嗎？" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "針對這一點有沒有人要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我補充一下，「one time password」不是要輸入帳號密碼的意思，QR code本身就是一個「one time password」，大家在討論那個生命週期多久，就是我拿到那個QR code之後，到底是什麼時候拿到、什麼時候結束，是在討論這個事情，所以我們那一組的建議是從掛號開始拿到QR code，然後領藥後，那個QR code失效，所以是忘記密碼的時候要臨櫃辦理，那是忘記手機的密碼。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "事前的防堵機制會讓民眾很不方便，因為現在的機制是如果忘記密碼的話，我要去臨櫃，所以我們這一組的建議是，如果是用事後查核機制去處理，而不是在一開始就防堵民眾讓民眾很不方便的話，其實我們可以解決一開始不方便的事，後續再處理。" }, { "speaker": "陳權忠", "speech": "健保署認為要用防堵機制是民眾借給其他人使用，一天用兩、三次都不是本人在用的，我們花這麼多的金錢時間、這麼不方便的話，現在所有的資料都會上傳雲端，我們可以跑一些檢核的機制來知道，像民眾是不是同時間是在A、B看不可能的事情，是不是透過檢核的方式去事後作稽核，然後對這一些不法的事情來作一些罰款的方式，而不是要把所有的錢放在事前的防堵，但是事後防堵用的成本比較低，如果能夠落實的話，說不定效果更好，目的是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "你的意思是原來的密碼是為了確認是你本人使用，如果事後發現不是非本人使用的狀況……" }, { "speaker": "陳權忠", "speech": "原本忘記密碼的時候，都要臨櫃重新辦理，不讓大家線上辦理原因是要確認人為的是你，才可以讓你換密碼，花時間成本來做這一種檢核方式，為何不把這一些檢核機制放在後面？民眾如果有很特殊的醫療，行為很怪異的用資料跑出來之後，再作事後稽核。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "謝謝補充。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "剛剛有提到六次就要作更新，其實我們希望每次連上的話，是清空，不需要有六次的限制。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "剛剛有提到連線的問題，有詢問過健保局這邊的資訊人員，是說離線的時候產生QR code，但健保資格無法連線狀況確認的話……" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "可以搭配……" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "事後的查核機制。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "還有QR code掃的問題，有提到有些院所端，現在有自動的批價機，可能反映如果以後真的實施這個方案的話，是要考量這個設備在使用上是否方便及辨識度，不然在那邊對很久，可是都還是掃不出來。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "我們這邊會有一個缺點，因為QR code沒有寫入功能，所以在就診紀錄上就沒有辦法馬上登錄在手機裡面或者是在健保卡裡面。不過這個是他的優點，他不需要讀卡，所以順暢度會好很多。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "很重要的一點是，假使這個QR code是沒有寫入功能，現在大家都知道，有些很重要的資訊是存取在健保卡裡面，像過敏史跟DNR等等，如果假設施行這個方案的話要特別留意，如果沒有辦法讀取的時候，這一些資訊必須要從哪一個地方存取下來，這個是過敏史跟DNR的部分，因為這個在醫療的部分是很重要的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "遺失處理的部分，剛剛一直都有講要臨櫃辦理，我們希望增設一些其他的點，因為現在只有講健保局，希望健保署可以跟其他的政府機關合作，民眾雖然親自辦理，也會覺得很方便，不會造成推行上的困難。" }, { "speaker": "蕭怡萍", "speech": "除了線上臨櫃辦理可以增加電話（詢問），可以評估看看，如果卡片遺失，可以知道透過電話詢問。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第四組有沒有要補充？或者是遺漏、沒有報到的地方要補充？" }, { "speaker": "陳權忠", "speech": "剛剛有講到QR code跟NFC的問題，查老師有提到NFC最大的優點是可以寫入，可是事實上在現行的環境來說，現行實體卡片最大的缺點是寫入，因為太慢了，跟現有的流程有一點問題，在醫院看診的時候，會發現大家進去把健保卡交出來，但是護理人員都要在完成看診之後要預約第二次動作的時候，還要再寫入卡片，NFC最大的優點是寫入，最大的缺點是不會把手機放在診間。所以大家在考量政策（制定）時，要確認雖然是優點，但是也會造成流程上的缺點。" }, { "speaker": "陳權忠", "speech": "以現行我們在看健保卡前六次看診紀錄寫入的部分，事實上被用到的機率很少，因為很少看到前幾次用藥的紀錄，因為現在二十四小時之內會在雲端查核藥歷，通常不會在看診的時候先看用藥，而且大家寫入的部分，有鑒於不同的診所或者是醫院資訊能力不同，所以根本沒有在寫入或者是有一些寫入是garbage，所以大家在寫入的時候，NFC寫入的好處是不是有這麼大的好處是要思考一下，因為在其他的方面，成本可能更高，以上是我的說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "我們接下來請第三組。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "委員、各位大家午安，我是第三組報告的人，最前面主要討論虛擬健保卡辦理的流程，我們這一組討論QR code的部分，因為虛擬卡，我們覺得是不是可以請代辦或者是遠端利用網路的部分，因為我們發現其實實體卡就可以透過代辦或者是網路一些部分就可以辦理了，希望虛擬卡也可以。可能一開始辦理會希望一些身分認證的問題怕被冒用之類的，我們覺得也可以用自然人憑證或是一些實體健保卡加強冒用的部分。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "因為有照片認證的問題，我們知道其實現在內政部都有在當初申辦身分證時所留下的照片，不曉得那個照片是不是可以沿用？也就是跨部會合作用那邊的資料之類的。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "因為14歲以下的孩童沒有身分證，是不是可以用戶口名簿去替代身分證的部分。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "還有在申辦的時候，剛剛看影片，申辦完之後有拿一個信封，類似密碼的部分，所以密碼是不是要有時間性的限制？像我們去銀行申請帳戶，他會給我們一組密碼，那個密碼也會在一定的時間之內開通，這樣對安全性比較不會有顧慮。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "我們有講到健保快易通，剛剛從影片看來，QR code的虛擬健保卡，都是要開啟快易通才開快易通，今天要登入的時候就一直忘記密碼，手機確認有認證過了，登入了一次確認沒有問題之後，是不是可以用指紋去辨識就好了，也就是開放這一個部分，日後輸入密碼的時候可以避免不必要的麻煩，在診間的時候，醫生一直跟我面面相覷，而導致密碼一直打不開，很尷尬。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "現在很多醫院接受線上掛號跟電話掛號，因此我們覺得虛擬健保卡在掛號的部分，其實不會有太大的問題。關於QR code的部分，如果上面已經有一些身分證的資料，像手機號碼下方是QR code，上方是姓名、身分證及基本資料的話，這樣其實可以做一些很簡單初步的身分辨識。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "接著是到診間報到部分，第六組醫師有提到會碰到一個問題，在問診的時候資料存取很慢，我們覺得是抓雲端資料慢，有可能醫院本身不太想要花錢在提升網速的部分，所以可能會有這一些衍生的問題。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "我們覺得是不是可以先報到，在載資料的時候利用候診的時候抓雲端的資料，在診間外面有一個報到機，可以用手機掃QR code，在雲端下載病歷資料，在醫院服務的同仁，他們有提到醫生的醫事人員卡要做三卡認證。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "醫生已經在診間看診了，外面有一個條碼機，你去刷了之後，那個也是三卡認證，只是距離比較遠跟隔一道牆而已，這個沒有什麼太大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "接著是同意病患本人可以下載資料給醫生使用的話，我們可以在條碼機那邊選同意或不同意的選項，讓醫生避免有這一些疑慮。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "我們一打開QR code的時候可以使用多久，像我在這一家醫院跟其他醫院的時候，QR code要同一個，是不是可以不用重新產生？" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "另外，我們也提到實體卡會有不同步的問題，虛擬卡也有一些措施是不是可以解決？" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "還有一個是批價的部分，是不是可以用其他的支付軟件付費？虛擬卡裡面不可以有電子支付的功能，我們今天反過來看，是不是可以用電子支付功能來支付我的虛擬卡？或者是嵌入其他的支付軟體？像街口支付之類的，可以作簡化的動作，可以讓我們方便一些。" }, { "speaker": "吳厚臻", "speech": "我們知道領藥最主要是確認身分，如果QR code本身上面有一些註記的話，可以確認這一些問題，像遺失處理兩個都不見的話，就可以一起辦理，回歸一起申請的部分，可以臨櫃跟網路辦理，這個是我們簡單的報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第三組有沒有朋友要補充或者是沒有說到的部分？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "先澄清一件事，我們剛剛絕對沒有說醫院不想花錢在建他們的網路，因為網路會有很多種原因，是不是可以利用候診的時間來下載健保的資料。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "因為那一組的同仁基本上是醫院的同仁，所以在醫院的情況下，領藥、批價跟看診是一條龍的，不會這邊看診完之後再到隔壁領藥的事。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "因此那時是說在領藥是連健保卡都不用出示就直接拿到藥，或者是要確認身分而已，這一連串的流程是只有在醫院才可以用，我在這邊註記一下。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "遺失處理有講到一件事，因為是遺失，所以一定辦過了，因此遺失不用像首次辦的這麼嚴格，是不是可以線上重新申請就好了，如果初次辦理，大家沒有辦法想到一個很好的配套在線上辦的話，遺失是不是可以在線上辦就好了，因為遺失的要求沒有像初次辦理的嚴格。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "遺失再辦理流程太方便的時候，會不會有人沒事就換一下照片，每一次看起來都不太一樣，反而容易導致冒用。大概是這幾個想法。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "一直換照片的事情，會讓我想到一些事，FB一直換頭像。" }, { "speaker": "楊榮林", "speech": "其實我們有幾個都在醫院裡面工作，這樣流程的做法，對我們來看，我們不是很care。" }, { "speaker": "楊榮林", "speech": "從你的掛號，像我們的掛號，其實90％都是醫生幫你預約下一次的掛號，幾乎很少到櫃台了，幾乎只有10％而已，報到門口都會有自動報到機，希望這一些不能破壞本來的方便性，尤其是對病人。" }, { "speaker": "楊榮林", "speech": "剛剛第一組也有醫師提到，現在都會怕上雲端資料太慢，因此還是要強調一下，健保現在有一個機制很好，如果今天先預約了明天要看的，只要病人有簽過同意書了，就同意讓你先下載，當然要管理得很好，我覺得現場有一些也可以用這個機制，至於怎麼做，應該可以解決很多。" }, { "speaker": "楊榮林", "speech": "另外一個比較不成熟的是，剛剛有提到APP，我們看的場景是用健保快易通，把虛擬卡綁在快易通裡面，有沒有像我們醫院的APP，你的虛擬卡綁在APP上，一樣的話，也可以綁在第三方支付，我知道資安有很多考量，如果行得通的話，健保卡幹麻考量行動支付、資料pass來做，行動支付就做行動支付，這個是我兩個pass。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "第三組補充完了，我們請第二組。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我們是第二組，主要的主題是「居家醫療服務」，現在破題一下，因為我們在談居家醫療服務的時候，一開始的同仁有談到其他組都在講虛擬卡，怎麼在講「居家醫療服務」好像不太是走虛擬卡的模式，現實上居家醫療服務有一些限制。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "以目前個案來看，居家醫療病患很多都沒有手機，或者是手機還是傳統式的手機，所以虛擬卡的前提不容易達成。第二，居家醫療環境本身網路的限制也很大，一般診間在網路都是實體的線路，比較沒有問題，可是居家醫療環境常常網路是不通的，因此這個也是要考量。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "再來，居家醫療的這個東西我們有考慮到設備要先讓它輕量化、單純化，因為在診間設備都已經架好、固定式的，所以比較沒有問題，但是居家醫療要帶出去，如果太麻煩會影響醫護團隊的意願。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "再來，居家醫療剛剛講過，其實初訓人力都有實務上的醫界先進同仁知道，人力都是最精簡的，可能是一個醫生、護士或者是什麼人員，如果在現場發現一些資訊性問題的時候，不可能叫這一些醫護人員去解決那一個問題，所以讓流程越單純越好；反過來，如果在醫院現場電腦當機，還有機會叫醫院的資訊人員來處理，但是居家醫療是不可能的，因此要讓這一件事越單純越好，因為我們是採時區併行，健保署還是比較傾向於用實體的方案來作解決。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我先破題再繼續往下講，剛剛有提到試行準備的部分是要排除虛擬卡的問題。有些問題的部分，有幾個方向：" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "第一，像居家醫療的部分，如何讓病患一開始就簽同意書，難度會比一般的診間更困難，因為你可能是第一次準備去個案家，他沒有簽同意書之前根本沒有辦法下載資料，所以這個部分是不是在法規上或者怎麼樣可以同意；當然去了以後，的確是可以去了之後再補簽同意書，但是還沒有去之前如何簽，這個是很大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "剛剛有提到將來健保署居家醫療APP的部分，如果同意書的問題先不考量的話，如何先預先下載資料，可以很方便匯入手機上，特別是剛剛提到病患是有兩個醫生輪流看診的，第一個醫生手機上有下載那個資料，資料存在第一個手機，下次的時候醫生又沒有，這個是要如何處理這一件事？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "他們的想法是，這個部分應該是要讓醫生或者是這一些醫護人員可以很方便處理，並不是都要call醫事人員來做。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "剛剛有提到一件事，如果手機預先下載資料，基於資安考量，可能事後還是要有刪除的機制，這個在設計上也要去做這一件事。因為我們目前健保署還是有在做下載後資料的稽核，你去下載這個資料以後，你事後沒有去看診的話，會有一些資安上的問題，這個東西是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "剛才有提到一件事，為何要很確認居家個案的原因？因為有醫界的先進有分享到，有時在一些居家個案的時候，去了以後才發現這個個案已經被其他的單位收走了，但是之前的患者可能講不清楚，結果已經跑了一趟甚至幫他做完了，回去要申報或者什麼的時候，才發現那個是別人的個案了，我再報也沒有用，已經花那個時間、成本是相當麻煩的，所以這個部分都會是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "再來，剛剛提到過APP一定要考慮到離線的問題，再來是如果這個APP可以直接做雲端藥歷線上讀取的話，怎麼樣呈現能夠讓醫生在設計上更清楚看到這個東西，而這個東西都是未來在設計上必須要考量的，並不是沒有解，而是希望多聽一下不同醫院的想法。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "再來，剛才也有聽到類似前面各組的意見，這個東西未來是不是可以跟院所自己本身的APP，因為現在各大醫院都是加強服務，都有做自己的APP，如何跟這一塊介接，當然健保署要統一設計很好，但是各院所自己有設計APP，是不是可以介接這一件事？因為比方來說，可能醫師更習慣用自己家裡的APP，但是他也要重新學健保署的APP，對健保署來講是另外一個loading，當然健保署重新核發APP的好處是對於自己沒有辦法開發來講是一個方便，這個是一個問題。這個是比較事前的部分。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "醫療行為的過程中，剛剛提到在網路通的情況下，儘量能夠在現場把工作做完，不要再把事情帶回院所再處理，因為實務上目前沒有辦法，甚至要把健保卡都帶回到院所裡面過卡或幹麻，這個其實對醫療院所來講有保管上的問題，如果病患後續突然要去看病的時候，也要再去拿健保卡其實很麻煩，希望都可以考慮，另外是剛剛提到器材輕量化的問題。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "剛剛有提到當網路不通的時候，希望有考慮到比方不要被重複申報的問題，已經白跑一趟了，希望建立一個包含居護所、呼吸治療所、診所間的資料交換問題。另外，網路不通的時候，有要考慮到一件事，因為都是拜天公，希望可以加把勁去努力處理的問題，還有剛剛提到重複收案的問題。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "電子處方箋的部分也是滿多事要討論的，第一個是開管制藥品的時候，法規要有蓋醫師的章，這個部分希望在設計上能夠做到，這個部分也是會做醫事卡虛擬簽章的東西，就是模擬一個紅的實體章。剛剛有提到QR code如果不見怎麼辦？可以的話，就自己先解讀下來備份。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "另外，QR code的部分是不是可以不要給患者、家屬，而直接傳給藥局，這個部分也可以考量，我們主要的想法是患者家屬會拿著QR code去哪裡看診，我們不見得事先先知道，如果指定給某個藥局，患者家屬不去那個藥局怎麼辦，這個當然是一個問題。另外，處方箋是不是有重複調劑的問題，這個會考量到用雲端方式來控管重複調劑之類的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "另外實務上剛剛有提到一個問題，除了處方箋的問題，還有居家醫療會有採檢的機制，是要開一個採檢單，醫師當場沒有辦法檢體，所以開採檢單，等下一次再有護士會去採檢，這個部分的採檢單是不是未來在功能上可以設計，讓他做得更好用，我想這個部分都是很好的建議，我先報告到這邊，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這幾張是不是有的？" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "應該都有了、都講了，第二組有沒有要補充的？因為我們這邊人丁比較單薄一點，我們這邊剛好有幾位沒有辦法來的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果沒有的話，就謝謝了，我們請第一組。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "大家好，我是第一組邱逸淳，因為我們發現這一組有分到兩題，等一下報告居家的部分，前面我會講，然後在處方的部分會請王明源藥師再幫我們講，我們最後會有副總幫我們講NFC的部分。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "在講居家之前，我們這一組好像賴醫師在診所，A模式是他在居家看完之後，等於做一個memo回診所，把所有的資料key好申報，雖然是居家，但是模式是比照一般看診。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我在台北市立聯合醫院，我也分享一個模式，我們叫「藍鵲計畫」，剛好在上個禮拜有獲得SNQ國家品質標章的銅獎，我們的模式是會扛一個notebook，然後會攜帶印表機及4G網卡，所以會有醫事卡跟健保卡的讀卡機，去病人那邊之後，我們就全部比照醫院，因為我們連上4G網卡、VPN進醫院，所有的東西都當場印出來、蓋完章也結完帳，病人就拿著我們該去藥局領藥的領藥，血要抽的話就帶回去處理，如果要放什麼管，我們就當場處理完，這個是B模式。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "今天大家看到健保署的C模式其實滿先進的，影片中是一個iPad，然後是藍牙讀卡機，所有的東西希望在健保署有一個統一的APP在平板上，就完成我們剛剛所講A或B模式。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我現在要講的是事前準備，以現在的模式來講，在病人家裡必須要回醫院，必須要讀所有在醫院看的資料，如果要看健保資料就要選web雲端，就可以知道在別的醫院、拿的藥、做的檢查，至於SOP醫生紀錄的東西是沒有辦法看得到的，因此可以預載資料的話，可以把本院，甚至全臺灣在哪裡看過，近期的最好，那當然是最好。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "第二，健保資料庫不夠，健保署這邊，當然可以把全國的資料都上載上去是最好的，但是目前來講藥物可以看到在其他醫院可以看什麼藥，檢查的部分有部分的報告是可以看得到的，檢查的部分有的是看得到檢查，不見得看得到data，最好是都可以看得到，但是沒有病人就醫詳細的故事，這個部分是健保資料目前缺乏的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "當然在醫院的病歷，像健保資料庫儲存的資料都是做這個，當然也有組員提到如果這樣的話，可不可以說居家醫療的病人也不是像門診這麼多人，像一個上午就三個，如果要預習的話，我在醫院預載資料的時候，是不是可以預習之後就可以小memo，預載在pad就帶去的時候可以看，這個是提出來，好像可以做這個動作；當然，在居家就是便利的問題，關於突然間沒有電，然後電源的充電裝置也是目前要考量的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "第二，講到家中網路暢通，目前的居家如果在當場看診，網路暢通當然是最好的，但是暢通的時候，像在聯合醫院就視同診間看診，所有的東西一模一樣，要上載的資料都可以弄得出來。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "但是可以接到院所的HIS系統，剛剛的藍牙是只存健保署設計的APP，變成健保資料的內容就跟回到的一樣，如果可以增加廣度跟深度的話是最好，不然就是前一組的同仁有提到，可以介接醫院的或者是醫院型的APP，這個可能是最好的。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "藥品、耗材、相關資料等等，因為現在去居家開單的時候，每隔醫院的藥都不一樣，健保署雖然有一個list，但是醫院會有習慣用的藥，但是要能夠把藥局、有的藥都開出來，這個可能是一個思考。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "第二個是耗材，比如放尿管、鼻胃管、放各個管路，那一些耗材打得出來，另外就是檢驗單，比如抽血，像剛剛同仁提到去哪裡抽，這個在所有相關藥品、耗材的相關資料單開得出來。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "如果健保署把所有的藥物打開，讓醫療院所出去，可以依照自己醫院的特性或者是鄰近合作藥局可以設一個，這個也許是可行的方式，這個部分嚴重的問題大概沒有。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "網路不暢通在目前K.O.沒有辦法，因為不暢通就什麼都不能弄了，就可以比照賴醫師的模式，也就是弄完之後回診所，我們再重新key一次，目前的解法就是這樣子。如果不暢通的話，可能預載藥品檢驗的資料就要更加完全，甚至藥單是不是要像剛剛講的，在醫院開好之後，假設要符合本來在醫院弄好之後就要傳到虛擬卡，讓他有一個QR code或者是什麼，可以去藥局領藥，這個是我們想說萬一網路不通的模式。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "像現在醫院臨時開錯去藥局，藥師就會打電話說：「你藥開錯，小朋友開到大人的劑量。」如果居家已經走了，臨時要改藥，在醫院可能方便回診間弄一弄，一天之內藥單發現有問題要改的時候，如何促成修改的模式，這個是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "強化資安、加密資料、避免遺失被破解，所有的東西都要認證，越方便越危險，越嚴密就越不方便，剛剛就在講說假設醫院開放這個APP也可以裝到私人的，好像不是很妥當，搞不好要執行這個業務，就一定要用公務提供iPad或者是任何的東西來執行。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "可能在介面的部分要保留介接醫院的HIS，HIS是醫生看診的系統，雖然健保署有做官方的，剛剛前組同仁也有講到，對於一些沒有能力開發的中小醫院或許是好的，但是對於大醫院、自己的介面要如何介接他的資料，可能就是一個方式。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "當然支付剛剛健保署也有說，目前不在裡面，但是我們也想說因為常常去居家都要找錢，為了讓病人方便，常常在那邊算錢，如果可以一次用這個東西就支付解決，搞不好連找錢、這個步驟都可以省卻掉。" }, { "speaker": "孫浩淳", "speech": "我現在講到這個部分，接下來是電子處方箋的部分，我請明媛跟大家解說一下。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "大家好，我是負責藥局處理的業務，所以我現在討論的是有關於電子處方箋領藥的部分，其實在電子處方箋憑QR code來講，對藥師來說是可以減少人工key in而帶來調劑的錯誤。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "現在衛福部對於重複領藥的部分來講，在醫院端的部分，如果慢性病連續處方箋的遺失，是不能再重開，必須重新掛號，然後再開立新的處方箋，但是如果今天使用二維條碼，假設病患因為不管是手機遺失，或者是QR code找不到或者怎麼樣，我們可以重新給他一個新的QR code，因為這個QR code沒有在被使用、領藥之前，其實是都木已讀取、領取的，一旦這個QR code掃完、領完藥，這個QR code就失效，這個部分也可以避免重複領藥。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "因為這邊有一個問題是，我們剛剛在情境劇裡面有提到，當醫生居家醫療看完之後，病人在平板上show出來的時候，那時病人是用手機翻拍，有的人所謂手會抖，一不穩，接下來藥局就面臨到讀不出來的窘境。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "因此這樣電子處方箋的QR code，是可以share到病人的APP裡面，病人再把它叫出來到藥局領藥，這樣子當然會更好。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "還有一個問題是礙於現行法規，其實藥局所收到的處方箋都需要保存三至五年，所以這樣子的電子處方箋，我收到只是二維條碼，是否需要再印出來？然後符合法規再保存這樣的年限，這個部分應該是可以思考的。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "另外管制藥品的部分，有些像一至三級的管制藥品，還需要包含醫師要蓋章、藥師要蓋章、調劑要蓋章，還需要領取一至三級管制的病人都需要簽名，不管是電子簽章、身分認證的問題，如何確保病人在用藥上的安全，這個部分也是後續要再加以思考的地方。" }, { "speaker": "王明媛", "speech": "剛剛邱醫師也有提到假設藥師拿到QR code、電子處方箋，如果有問題的話，怎麼請醫生改？當然這就比較方便了，因為電子化了，像邱醫師發現有問題，更改處方之後可以給我一個新的QR code，就可以憑這個來做調劑的動作給病人，因此其實在這一個部分來講的話，如何確認簽章有效性、憑證有效性、身分認證，可能這一端在電子處方箋是要討論的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "我們這邊有討論過的議題，這整個週期當中，像我們討論到小朋友剛出生的時候，一定是給他一張實體卡，根本不可能給他虛擬卡，因此在這一個部分有一個議題是，有討論到如果當有選擇的時候，是不是有機會可以去做選擇？也就是不用實體卡，是不是可以？如果可以的話，就發虛擬卡讓民眾這樣子來使用？這個部分是有討論到的議題。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "再者，遇到的狀況是這整個申請流程，從剛剛看到的情境來講，必須臨櫃來說，對民眾產生一個很不便利的狀況，因為目前健保卡遺失要去申請、換發等等的機制，很多不見得要臨櫃，非首次的話。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "若非臨櫃辦理實體卡的話，虛擬卡就一起非臨櫃來辦理。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "比較嚴重的問題，目前並沒有談到。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "NFC的方案在掛號櫃台，看起來沒有什麼問題。同樣的，在診間報到的部分，因為手機比較貴重，不會直接拿給醫護人員，拿給醫護人員之後，因為卡片也薄薄的，一下就掉了，也不知道在哪裡，手機比較大，所以比較不會忘記在哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "但是存在一個議題是，民眾不但可能把手機給醫護人員，又存在一個問題，拿的過程中手滑掉了，這個到底是誰的？一支3萬元，這個是滿麻煩的。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "再來遇到的狀況是，跟我們搭高鐵一樣，我進去的時候，一刷是有的，出來的時候卻停電，那就完蛋了，因此談到的議題是，現有的健保卡異常狀況的讀卡流程必須要設計它，才能讓整個流程走得下去。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "在這個過程中組員有提到，所以如果要這樣子設計的話，還是讓患者，像我們講說整個虛擬卡要限制，第一個會走的，會走的拿東西或者是清醒的，這一種人才有辦法拿虛擬卡，因為我們希望讓患者自己去感應，像剛剛講掉下去的話，患者是自己掉的，並不是我掉的。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "在整個批價或者是領藥的流程，看起來的狀況都不會有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "主持人有提到，像行動電源必須要帶在身上，在整個流程看診的過程中比較不會有問題，民眾要自己帶設備，醫院要提供充電設備，我有這個建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "「設備太貴，藥局診所不想買怎麼辦？」" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "中間有提到一個議題，像目前如果是NFC讀卡裝置的話，整個流程我們剛剛講了會遇到幾件事，虛擬卡片是NFC會遇到手機種類不見得通通都支援，所以在這樣的情況底下，也可能會有QR code的議題，在這樣的情況之下，要買的設備就變得有很大的限制，像有幾種都要買等等的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "因此在這一個部分也有討論到哪一個方案比較好，有包含QR code跟NFC，NFC手一靠就可以用，NFC就是帥。QR code就一定要這樣照，還不見得能用，但是目前在外面普及性比較高的還是QR code。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "寫卡的部分，因為NFC是實際有資料連結的介面，所以在用NFC的部分，對於整個離線讀取的機制也是存在的，QR code就不具備第二個方案。" }, { "speaker": "陳鵬文", "speech": "剛剛一直有提到Apple的部分，在NFC的部分還沒有開放，我確實有打電話去，他說目前沒有，可能要政委打電話去才有用（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "謝謝。請問第一組有沒有人要補充的？如果沒有的話，分組報告到這個地方。要讓政委說話之前，有一個問題可能要先請教健保署，我們之前在sli.do上有收到一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們前面那個影片之後有沒有機會公開？看組長這邊？" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "今天播放的影片，因為都是由我們署內的同仁在擔任角色，這個部分我們會徵求所有影片拍攝者的同意之後，我們影片就會公開，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "謝謝，接下來時間交給政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝，我就坐著講好了，今天真的很高興有這個機會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最近國發會已經頒布了〈政府數位服務準則〉，我們從現在開始，接下來一年是一個測試版，叫beta版。之後是正式的，也就是政府做任何數位服務的時候，都要用我們類似現在這樣子的方式，先找可能的使用者先去調查使用者的需求，包含第一線人員也是使用者，來進行試做等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "〈政府數位服務準則〉本來各個部會都挑一些案例來做，但是我們前兩天才有一次史上最大服務流程改造的案子（笑），大家瞭解到確實邀實際的使用者來測試是必要的，因為之前那個案子也有選務人員自己做過測試，因為大家都很熟的狀況，有一點像我們請財政部資訊的人來測試Mac報稅一樣，勾一勾沒有問題，他們都非常熟，2分鐘就完成了，事實上使用者的情境跟需求是不一樣的，所以在實際去年Mac報稅的時候就產生很多問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在這一次，中選會的朋友們的模擬上跟實際進行上，也看到一個很大的不同。所以我覺得無論如何，小規模測試一定是比較好的，這樣子的概念在週末之後已經深植大家的心中。可以期待〈政府數位服務準則〉在接下來應該會比較多人願意使用，不然結構就會像週末這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二件事，其實我們協作會議的流程跟運行的方法可以看到一次次在進步，之前沒有這一種滑動式的投影幕（笑），但是事實上滑動式投影幕事實上是比較好用的，我們之後可以採用類似標準配備的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛有聽到一些很基本的想法，我想NFC這一個部分確實是比較方便，但是確實如果我們小規模測試只用Android測，還沒有關係，但是如果到比較大規模測試，把蘋果使用者排除的話，這絕對會造成一些使用上的問題，然後也有不只一位朋友提到可能要我打電話去給蘋果才有用，我也不知道為什麼會這樣，可能之前服務了六年，但是沒有關係，我會打電話給蘋果，蘋果才剛設立了一個位置，專門跟各國的部門討論事情的類似外交官，就是準主權、外交的概念，所以我想我就會直接跟他們這一種準外交部門去進行討論，我想這個是比較快的，如果是跟技術部門的話，我想並不是技術部門能夠做的決定，所以這個部分我有收到，我也會去問。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他的部分是大家在流程上有提到手機是很貴重的東西，一方面是我們要NFC感應上要照顧到手機的東西，二方面是中間有發生意外的話，盡可能設計流程，不需要診間的人員去賠手機，這個是我們之前在討論的時候沒有聽到的意見，我覺得這個是很棒的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，其實手機對手機專有轉移功能，就算是跨作業系統，現在有一定程度的轉移功能，所以我剛剛聽到我也想到確實去轉移，然後我們這個APP轉移過去的時候，是不是有可能新轉移的APP可以用某種方式，當你打開的時候，其實通知還沒有完成轉移的過程，或者是還需要做一次額外驗證或之類的話，當我有兩支手機在手上，還沒有消磁、賣出去之前，我就有一個機會能夠不一定要臨櫃，然後去做身分的轉移，我想這個是兩組都有提到，這個是很好的想法，我們會請健保署往這個方向，看有沒有可能兩支手機都在的情況下，我們提醒他，然後讓他能夠一定程度上，不一定要臨櫃就做轉移，我想這個也會讓大家覺得比較友善的一件事。以上是NFC方面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "QR code方面，我這邊聽到的是，有一些其實都是關於遺失或者是忘記密碼等等的部分，這一些部分如果每一次都要跑到臨櫃的話，我想臨櫃人員也會不勝其煩，其實要瞭解到去臨櫃辦並不是花使用者的力氣而已，事實上臨櫃的人的力氣也會因此而花掉，即使我們讓不知道衛生局或者是戶政事務所的人幫忙辦理，包含教育訓練或者是有別的本質工作要做等等，這一些其實都會需要花時間，因此並不是只是花我們的一小時，也花第一線工作人員的一小時，所以看有沒有可能評估在一定安全性的情況下，例如換照片的次數還是要有限，不能每一天換臉，這樣子的情況下，還是一定程度不需要花臨櫃人員的時間就可以辦理，這個也是收到很好的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其他的部分是政府數位服務準則裡面有提到以開放為原則，這個開放指的不只是資料或者是原始碼，特別是指介接，也就是API的開放，而這個介接就會讓所有能力發展更好服務體驗的朋友，可以站在政府公版的基礎上，而不是一定跟政府競爭的情況，這裡尤其是大醫院，自己已經有一套服務系統，更是很重要的夥伴關係，所以我想這一個部分，我們也會在接下來測試的時候，因為如果這個部分要測試的話，想必是要找醫院測試，不是找居家，居家找實際的團隊測試就好了。跟醫院測試的時候，我們也會把這一個部分，也就是請健保署要納入這個考慮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在居家上，我聽到最小化技術支援的需求，這個是滿有感的，因為用到一半網路斷了、用到一半電力斷了、用到一半各種各樣的東西斷了，當然不可能要求患者或者是醫護人員在每一個出去看診的時候都帶著全部四種的資訊專業者，隨時發生事情的時候就修，這個大概是做不到的，我們叫做「整備性」，就是自己能夠發生各種不可預測的情況，永遠都有plan B，都是在派出去團隊很清楚，最好有一個流程告訴他發生什麼事的時候如何因應，我想這樣子對大家都比較方便。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛也聽到很多實際上，包含調劑、修改藥單、處方箋的電子保存，包含醫師跟病人簽章等等的部分，這個都是為什麼要先在這邊討論？因為我們實際測試的時候，我們就可以先把這一些東西變成前測、後測的項目，我們預先考慮這一些了，實際用的時候，看大家有沒有不舒服、有沒有覺得本來多慮等等的地方，我們會進行小規模的試做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想接下來會發生的事大概有三個：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，我會先去跟院長報告，星期一的政務會議裡面，會把大家收到的這一些東西，如果我要打電話去蘋果的話，還是要先讓院長知道，這一件事會先取得院長的瞭解，這個也會跟國發會，現在有一個「智慧政府」的方案去進行銜接，這個都是在政務會議當中處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，明年署裡會確定，進一步把剛剛提到藍鵲方案擴增成藍牙方案之類的，變成C方案的實際小規模測試，這個應該明年上半年度會試做，並把大家的意見帶進去，如果有留email的話，會收到實際在什麼地方開始測等等通知的訊息。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當時如果大家對於我們今天討論的東西，實際變成測試計畫轉換過程有什麼疑問的話，當時那一封email裡面就會有窗口讓大家問問題，這個是確定的，也就是居家在上半年測試的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後，NFC跟QR code因為今天收到相當多的意見，尤其NFC還包含跟蘋果討論等等，這一個就沒有辦法保證一定會在明年上半年第一批小規模測試，但是在討論之後決定什麼樣的時程、範圍及詳情，我們會在實際測試之前，也是循居家測試的方式，有留mail的話都會收到mail，也會知道時程、範圍及詳情如何。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果我們確定在某個地方開始測QR code、NFC的話，大概也會有窗口繼續去詢問詳情，大家在願意參與的過程中，我想每一次測試並不是就定案了，而是按照實際的結果，再用類似的方法或者是更好的方法，一直收斂到大家覺得不但帥，而且對大家都有省到時間，我們覺得才是好的數位服務，如果單純只是帥而已，但是事實上到最後要花額外的時間，這樣子可能要重新進行第二次或者是第三輪的測試，到第幾輪的測試，我想沒有輪數的限制，會變成好用的東西才會roll out，不會在第一次就roll out到整個社會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天到這邊，非常感謝大家來參加。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "最後是大合照的活動，在大合照之前，先感謝一下各位聚集在這裡，對於未來健保卡做了一些貢獻，請大家給自己一點掌聲。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "再來，我們有非常辛苦的工作人員，包含拍影片、各位看到這一些表格、會前都經過非常多人討論，請大家給健保署同仁一些掌聲。最後是大合照的部分，有意願要拍照的人請到前面來。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Good afternoon, everybody. We are going to conduct this conversation in English. Actually, I’m serving more as an artist and moderator during this conversation. I will introduce Paul B. Preciado and Audrey Tang in a dialog." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I met Audrey Tang -- as Autrijus Tang -- in Taipei in 2002 in the hacker-marathon gathering somewhere downtown. At the time, I was commissioned to co-curate an online exhibition called Kingdom of Piracy for the now defunct Acer Digital Arts Center." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Autrijus, as part of the Elixir Initiative, submitted a proposal titled \"PiraPort\" for the KOP show. It’s amazing that recently I bring up this proposal again and reread the proposal. I just going to quote from the proposal." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "\"The PiraPort project explores the PiraGene sequencing technology to offer an alternative identity platform for pirates via gene discrimination, port multiplexing, and cross-signed trust chains.\" The project at the time, in 2002, was somehow never realized. [laughs] Did you reread this proposal?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I did." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "How you feel about the proposal now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say blockchain now." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We say blockchain now... It was PiraChain back then, but it’s the same idea." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Somehow, from 2002 to now, 2018, I think some of these topic we will be revisiting today, for sure. With Paul, I met Paul B. Preciado as Beatriz Preciado in Paris around the same time I met Autrijus. She walked into my studio with her bull dog. I think you always carry your dog with you. [laughs] Not carry, you walk your dog." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "That was such a moment I always remember in my studio in Paris in the Cité des Arts. I was doing a residency there. Somehow you feel the sunlight beams in. Since then, I have been collaborating with Preciado in different occasions." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "In 2008, Preciado brought me to Arteleku in Spain to stage...At the time, it was a performance piece and workshop called \"FLUID.\" It was a exhibition called \"Feminismo Porno Punk.\" I think somehow these three words always stay with me. I think a lot of my work carry the punk, the porn, and the feminisimo mode, yes. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This was the first time when Paul brought me to Arteleku. It was the first time I was able to realize this particular performance and workshop. It actually did happen. Before that, I was censored and shut down three times, in Norway, in Montreal, and in Berlin." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "By 2008, I was able to stage this performance. FLUID was a concept that I conceive in 2000 for the feature films. From then on, I really desire that I should realize this film. I conceive the project in 2000. It took me until 2017 to realize the project." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "There was the premier at the Biennale. The film title is \"FLUID0\". Again, Preciado brought me to the castle in Documenta’s public program to screen the film the same year, last year, after the film was released in Biennale." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Both of them have really quite an interesting history and different kind of transition that we will be getting into. I was really happy to have this opportunity to bring the two together and have a talk together. I was going to read a bio, but I guess it’s on all the event page, so I will skip that then." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I promise we’ll be very exciting. [laughs] As we say, we will have the Slido open, slido.com. To sign in, 3x3x6. We welcome all you to pose question, and we will come to it or do some intervention with the question. If you pose it, you can pose it in Chinese or in English. It’s no problem. I want to bring up just the first question to get us started, not so much that we would answer it." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The first question, asked by \"That cyborg has been avoided\": \"Who can guarantee that this art itself can be more democratic? First, in the art museum, the so-called People have long been disempowered.\"" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Shall we start? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Hello. We’re making the art more democratic by asking you to \"like\" each other’s questions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you see a question that you would also like us to talk about, just press like on your phone and so on. This is because it’s going to be more than two hour of us continuous talking. It will get kind of boring if you don’t have something to like on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you like each other’s questions, the one with the most number of like actually flow to the top, and therefore, Shu Lea sees it first. The chances are better when Shu Lea sees it first. She will be like a medium. You channel your energy through her into our discussion. She will be a representative to re-present your ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s my take on this question. We basically use technology that enables people to still speak while we’re speaking. That’s the setting. Over to you, Paul." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Now? Yes. Hi, everyone. I’m really happy to be here. It’s really an honor to be in conversation with both of you." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I’m, of course, a friend of Shu Lea for a long time, and now have the pleasure to be the curator for the exhibition. I’m also a big fan of your work, so I’m delighted to be here. Let’s see if we are able to work together through the session in the sense that you are able to participate, ask questions, and be part of the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How can I say? I have to say that Shu Lea told me before not to talk too much about history, but I also told her, \"History for me is just a science fiction because we know very little about our own history.\" When we speak about the museum, we tend to think that art and the museum are spaces for freedom." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that if we look back into the history of this institution, we realize that museums were first constituted as places where the trophies of military wars, military campaigns were collected. In a sense, the history of war and what I call necropolitics, the history of using violence and death as the only way of doing politics, is at the ground, at the bottom of these institutions." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Then, of course, the museum, through the 18th and 19th century, became one of the disciplinary institutions through which the idea of what is the national party, what is the history of a nation has to be constructed through a series of objects and memories that become part of these collections." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What is interesting is not just the museum. I would say that the museum is not, by itself, a democratic place. On the contrary, the museum is a place that has to be questioned constantly and where democracy has to be activated." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That’s what artists are doing, trying to bring these questions to the museum, de-colonizing the museum, depatriarchalizing the museum, meaning trying to criticize the gender, patriarchal, heterosexual politics that have been constituting the museum." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "These are some of the questions that are now put in the museum and questioned, and maybe even transforming the museum even more. This is maybe a question for you, Audrey, because now with the Internet and the new technologies, what the museum is might be also a different question." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The museum might be not exactly these walls that we see here, but something else." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. Technologies works in a interesting way. When we turn my scribbles of Paul’s statements to a projector here that allows people to comment on it using Slido there, it makes them what we call social objects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These are no longer objects like trophies are on display, but actually become things that people can take a photo on and share on social media or on any other places, and basically gets uploaded to the public Internet as part of the commons. I think that is a kind of overlay layer on top of any what we call spaces." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we think about spaces, traditionally we think about it as one space, like one room that we are in, which is part of a larger place like the museum that we are in, which is part of a city perhaps, which is part of whatever. It’s a very topological view. Basically, the relationship is always containing one another." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Internet, the part that is \"inter-\" is its core. It means that you can take any two places that are otherwise not containing each other by make links between them so that you can link through your phone from this place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re watching the live stream from another place, you can also receive the signal that we are having here through live-streaming -- and through echo, apparently -- then goes to this third place, which is Slido now, but there could be any other gathering place online, which is then projected back to this space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This creates another relationship, what we call a link-based relationship. The link graph, the lines of links, and the place graph, the containing of spaces, those two together form what we call bigraph, which is at the same time a graph of spaces, but also a space of links." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These two together extends both the potentials of the initially limiting physical space, but it also redefines how those space interact with each other. Previously, we only have the laws of physics to work with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have the ambient soundscape. We have the optics. We have the physical laws of people feeling their bodies sitting next to each other, and so on. Now, overlaid with a link graph, we can put on VR glass and see all the empty chairs. Suddenly, people appear in them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can overlay two spaces together, and we can free up the spaces by introducing a new set of law, what we call code, that defines, just like physical law, what is possible, what is not, what is transparent, what is opaque, and so on, but essentially bring second layer of physics on top of the place-based physics." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Can we get back to the title, what we set up to do today? \"Democracy in Transition\" is a big topic. Who want to scratch it? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It partly has to do with our own political biography, in a sense, but also extends to thinking about the contemporary condition. I realized myself when I was transitioning. Let’s say, if you believe in gender binaries, this is a bigger discussion that we can have." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I do not believe in gender binaries, but we live within a gender-binary epistemology regime. This is the situation. Some of us, we’re trying to hack this regime or trying to hack this epistemology. I started to transition myself from 2004 using different technologies, using hormones, using other medical technologies, but also technologies of inscription." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, changing the name, changing according to the law, and also writing because I consider writing. Then we can speak with Audrey, as well, what does it mean to write today within the code? Writing is one of the technologies of subject construction, of gender construction." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I started doing that in the early 2000s. Then, through a slow transition, I get to the point that I’m now. Let’s say this is continuing. Then I realized that it was not really myself that I was transitioning, not just even many of my friends and the people that I work with that were also transitioning, but that we were in a moment of planetary transition." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Basically, we are changing the paradigm and the regime in which we live in a similar way to the very radical and intense changes that were happening through the 15th century when the printing press was invented, with the advent of the first industrial revolution, and colonialism and globalization." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Now, I had the feeling and the impression that because of the transformation and the use of some of the technologies that had been developed during the Second World War, those technologies that I told you before that were necropolitical technologies, technologies of death." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "If you think about from the nuclear bomb to all the other war technologies, this was the big festival of the Second World War. What happened after the Second World War is that these technologies of death transform into technologies of communication, technologies of transformation, and production of the body, and radically will change what we understand today not just for space." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Audrey was speaking about that a minute ago. The notion of a space today is not exactly the same that the one we had in the 15th century. Something similar is happening with the body within the contemporary condition." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Still, the notion that we have of democracy is very much an analog notion, in a sense, almost archeological notion of democracy. What I started to think about and I wanted to speak with Audrey and Shu Lea about is precisely what does it mean to act within this condition of, on one side, a change of paradigm?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What is this change of paradigm that we’re getting into with the advent of the new technologies and the Internet, but also, of course, the expansion of military and surveillance technologies? The Internet is also one of the military technologies so it’s not so clear if we are getting into a domain of control or if there is a possibility for action and agency. Therefore, what might be the role of the artist in all that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When Paul said that Internet was a technology of the war, that is actually literal. It’s not a metaphor. The Internet started as a research project from DARPA, which is the defense arm of the US government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The design of Internet is explicitly designed to maintain the communication after a nuclear war. That’s its design specification. We know a lot of ways to connect people together, but until the research team did the Internet Protocol, the IP Protocol, nobody really knows how to survive a communication network after the nuclear war." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They figure out this simple idea that they call end-to-end principle. It means that only the person initiating the conversation, the communication, and the people receiving the communication should determine the content. Everything in between can be changed." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It can be through optic lines. It could be through carrier pigeons." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, there really is a document that describe how to use carrier pigeons to transmit Internet packets. It could be through trucks -- actually, there’s one about trucks with hard disk on the trucks -- or interplanetary rockets, or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It doesn’t care about the technologies that’s used in the middle, but it cares a lot about how to get, reliably, a signal from one person to another person. That’s called the end-to-end principle. That defines the Internet because nobody knows what will still work after a nuclear war. That was the defining characteristic of the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, today, Internet is separate from the US itself. It declared sovereignty. It no longer respond to any of the US agencies anymore. The United Nations ITU wants to get Internet Society under its control, but the Internet Society never agreed. We only agreed to hold one yearly conference together called the Internet Governance Forum, which I appeared as a robot last year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea, very simply, is that Internet itself, through radical transparency and through voluntary association, the two simple idea that any decision made about the Internet must be participatory by anyone on the Internet. This is a very simple idea." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The participation itself must also be public on the Internet through live-streaming and other technologies. It constantly reflects on itself. I think it is also a very artist thing to do. Internet, at the end, is about a lot of code that powers machines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re seeing the code as a regulator, as a lawyer, or as any top-down institutionalist, you will see it as something that’s written, like the Code of Hammurabi, the Code of Napoleon, the code of whatever. It will be something that is written like on a tablet, maybe not iPad, a stone tablet, and you cannot really change it freely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through this radical participation, the hackers of the Internet basically are invited to test the limit of Internet, to invent new uses, like blockchain, on the Internet, without asking for anyone’s permission. This what we call permissionless invention, meaning if you want to extend the Internet, only you and the person who are going to communicate with you need to agree on this new way of communication." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Nobody in between, including the earlier inventors of the Internet, they cannot say anything about it. This permissionless invention, or the idea of hacking on the Internet itself, is what enable Internet to still grow after all these decades." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it is a very artist’s take on code because if you’re a institutionalist, you would just keep the code running. You will not hack the code and you will not do permissionless invention. You will always ask for permission before inventing. The Internet, still today, is very artsy in the sense that it is permissionless invention." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s true that whenever I listen to you speaking, I have the impression that you are extremely Utopian, that your view of the Internet is really that we have full agency, that this is a space of maximum freedom. Nevertheless, I tend to have the impression that it’s also a space of enormous control." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How do you see that dialectic? I know the kind of activist work that you’ve been doing, hacktivism, but for everyone else, they might not be at the same level of expertise in terms of writing the code or having access to it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is true even though, theoretically, anyone can take any legal interpretation or legal regulation and change it because they are not under copyright. Any work by your lawyer and so on, by regulators, they’re not copyrighted. Theoretically, there is nothing preventing you from doing a legal change analysis or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe through one of our sandbox mechanisms here in Taiwan, you can say, \"OK, I want to try to this alternate version of regulation on my municipality for a year for everybody to see that it’s a good idea before the municipality adopts it as the new regulation. We have this system here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just having the sandbox system doesn’t automagically mean everybody become a lawmaker. It doesn’t automagically mean that people know where exactly in the regulation is the one that affects people’s lives. In fact, that is what the legal, civics, basic education is all about." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can consider if it’s only a few people knowing how to use any technology -- I will use fire example because it’s easiest to conceptualize -- if you only allow a few priests or whatever to control the use of fire, and most of the people are illiterate about the use of the technology, we’ve seen those societies before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We see fire burn through the entire cities because of the limited control of a technology. People generally don’t know how to manage that technology by themselves. What we say about democratic in terms of learning to cook very early on, learning civics very early on, and also learning code very early on, it’s just to build a different shape of expertise." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People at any time, if they feel comfortable, can always ask somebody higher on the expertise chain for more input. There will be always a fluid conversation between people who know about the legal issues a little bit more, like the paralegal people, but not yet lawmakers or constitutional court judges." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When the constitutional court, for example, makes a interpretation, you see a flow on the Internet where it gets translated into something that the practicing lawyers will understand, that the people with some paralegal training will understand, and then into what just people with liberal arts education will understand, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If anyone, at any point, have some ideas of how to contribute to it, of course, we see a lot of these materials also getting translated back. These kind of feedback and feed-forward, the two-way translation among expertise, is really what keeps any technology, including fire, legal code, and computer code, from being completely dominating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Without this dynamic two-way translation, it’s almost guaranteed to be a surveillance and/or control technology. I do agree with your premise, but this is what everybody can just identify your position, any expertise, and just form communities that basically build a ladder of expertise together." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I guess that one of the issues is to be able to recognize the technology as a technology. Sometimes, we’re not able to act politically or to have any kind of agency just because we naturalize a technology. We don’t see it as a code, as a language, as something that can be intervened into." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is what happens mostly, for instance, with gender, sex, and sexuality. People have this naturalized relation to it, and they think that, in relation to gender, there are just two genders or two sexes, and that these cannot be changed." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What some of us are doing very much as hackers on the level of writing the code, is understanding gender, sexuality, and sex as political technologies, and, therefore, trying to intervene within those technologies, so have agency on the technologies that are producing your subjectivity." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is something that I’ve been call opening up the pill, which I think is quite close to some of the things that you’re doing, but in my case, my work is more related to biotechnologies, chemical technologies, and so on, technologies of production of the body." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This expression of \"opening up the pill\" comes from the ’90s when HIV patients were not given the choice of being or not the object of medical trials. They didn’t have the choice of knowing what pill they were talking. Basically, what happened is that, depending on which pill you would be taking, if you are an HIV-positive person, some of them would be dying. Some of them will not die." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What happened is that, among themselves, and this is very close to this kind of cooperation that you are promoting, they came together and they said, \"We need to open up the pill. We need to break up the pill and get to understand the technologies that we are eating, that we’re digesting, in order to be able to know if we will die or we will live.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "They started talking about opening up the pill. For me, this is very close to the idea of hacking the bio-code, not just the code in terms of the Internet. Part of the work that I’m doing is also very much related to your work, is trying to resituate the body within this transformation of media technologies, visual technologies, Internet technologies." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Opening up the pill, meaning that each of us would have to, at a certain point, ask the question, \"What are the technologies that I am using and that are constituting me as a subject,\" whatever they are, \"that allow me to be female or male or heterosexual or not." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe at some point, we can show one of the images that I brought for you so you understand...Yes, there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can choose." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yeah, if they are here. Maybe just to show this image that has a lot to do with the work that Shu Lea is doing for the pavilion." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is one image of the panopticon, which is an architecture from the early 18th century that was thought at the beginning, before being used for prison, to maximize the production of workers in a factory, with the idea that having a central tower from which someone was supposed to be watching everyone working." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Basically, all the workers would feel the pressure of being watched and suddenly would start working much more and much better. This idea was then used by Jeremy Bentham to promote the construction within European governments, but not only European." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Recently, we’ve been visiting a prison like that in the mid-south of Taiwan that was constructed during the Japanese occupation. These became a model of control and maximizing of the production within not just European, but also globally, disciplinary institutions. What is interesting..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That’s nice, too. I never seen this image with your writing before. This already quite a hacking. You see the central structure. This is the prison of Chiaya that is here in Taiwan and that now is a museum, but that was constructed during the Japanese occupation. You can see. It’s not exactly a full panopticon, but the model is quite close to a panopticon." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. You see the structure, but what is interesting is that in an architecture like this, your subject position, your possibilities of action are defined by the location that you have within this architecture. In a sense, those architectures of power work as exoskeletons, like in a structure is really like a frame that constrains the body physically." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Depending on your position, you have a different agency. It’s very clear now, for instance, you’re there. We are here. Someone is holding the iPad. I have the mic. For instance, something that is happening today when we’re saying you can send messages to the Slido is that, in a sense, we’re distributing agency by expanding the technologies for you to modify the relationship that you have to us." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Within the disciplinary society, within the 19 and early 20th century, basically the position that you have as subject was defined by your exact location within a physical architecture. If you’re a student, you’re sitting down on one of these chairs. If you are the professor, you are here." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This defines not just a relation of knowledge, that I can give you knowledge and you can give me nothing, but also defines a relation of power. Something is changing. Suddenly, we go from already the abstract eye of the panopticon where this is an abstraction in the sense that the people that are in the cells or working in the factory don’t really know if there is anyone watching them." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "They think there might be someone. Already the eye that is looking is an abstraction. A step farther will happen when suddenly the eye is not human, that the eye is an electronic eye. Therefore, this eye can be fully disseminated within a space." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Even, the eye can be in your pocket. Suddenly, you don’t have only two eyes, you have many more. Some of them are looking at you. Some of them are your own electronic eyes looking at others." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "There is a multiplication of the eye, a becoming machine of the eye which complicates this relationship of power. I can tell you more about that. What is interesting for me is that something very similar was happening within the domain of the production of gender and sexuality after the Second World War." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What is going to happen is that, precisely because of the development of a lot of new technologies during the war, some of these technologies will be used for the control of techniques of reproduction. This is exactly what will happen with Pincus and Rock, which are two doctors that, in the late ’40s, actually, invented the contraception pill." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The contraception pill, at the beginning, they were just pills that came into a bottle. No one really knew how to use them. They had to invent the dispenser. The dispenser had this shape. It can also have this one that is more common now." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Then, for you to start thinking differently and to look at the technologies that you use differently, I’d like to point to this analogy between the Panopticon and the pill dispenser. There, you see the translation from an architecture of power that is external to the body to a new miniaturized chemical technology that, now, enters within your body and transforms your possibility of action." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Meaning, for instance, your possibility of being pregnant or not, having or not having, or becoming reproductive or not after a sexual practice, which, fully changes the traditional notion of heterosexuality." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, I don’t know if you consider yourself heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, polysexual, multisexual, pansexual, asexual. Think that many of those notions are historical, were invented by medical discourses, and are mediated by technologies. As much as language is coded by technology and as the Internet is a technology." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "One of the things that I wanted to point to today and that I thought was interesting about this conversation between us is that you see the relationship between the advent of the Internet at a certain point and the transformation of medical and biotechnologies in the production of subjectivity." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We always think, \"OK, this is technological but the body is not.\" Yes, the body that we have now, the notion of the contemporary body has to change, cannot be anymore this anatomic fiction from the 15th Century that we keep using. Yes, but I don’t know how do you like to interact with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe Shu Lea would like to intervene." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Actually, not so much. I wouldn’t pause here because... Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Somehow, in refer to this question, \"what will be your ideas for the exhibition next year? how will you do it?\" We are exactly talking about how we are going to do it next year. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "To our conversation which is going places quite a lot. I want to do a bit of summing up where we are at. The question about technology, in a more common sense, we seem to always refer technology as more technical technology, electronic, mechanical, it seems." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "At the moment, the way we are talking about technology is pretty much refer to any kind of almost intervention technology, in terms of gender intervention, medical intervention, body intervention." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This is quite an interesting area, will be the main threat for the Venice Biennale exhibition we are working on. The other question is the question of the binary. I think the word binary/nonbinary will keep coming up. Again, we would refer to what is the binary technology." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "As soon as we’re speaking about technology by the way mechanical, electronic equipment is designed -- you have the male and female -- this is the part it drive me crazy. All the time working with technologies, it seems I am working always with the male and female. The female needs to find a male to plug in the male/female plugging thing, and then, finally, you have to find an adapter." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This seems to be the journey of my technical [laughs] journey. Actually, if we start talking about the technology in the sense of the binary male and female, then we should, again, redefine what would be able to break down the body binary of male and female. This is another topic that we would be dealing with in a certain way in the exhibition." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Consider this, and I think somehow we will get into this binary/nonbinary and how we would redefine ourself. Earlier on, there’s also a question about how do we queer the museum. What would the structure of the museum if here we are in a grand museum? What would the artist do within the system? What would be the intervention in the museum system, including, \"How do we queer the museum in that sense?\"" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Second topic I feel like you both touch on is actually about the architecture. Paul, your question with architecture is always really more refer to the power of the space, isn’t it? All the time, you refer back to how do we switch, shifting this power relationship in certain way, how we position ourselves, not only the space, the seating, the left to right or the right to left, the top and up." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "In this case, we can easily get into sexual positioning, I guess." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Which would be quite exciting in the Tuesday afternoon before six o’clock." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Of course, I think the confined architecture space. In this way, I would like to refer to the question earlier, a question about the title \"3x3x6.\" The title 3x3x6 refer to a prison cell that is 9-square meter and six surveillance camera. It is a certain kind of prison cell in Europe." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Actually, in Chiayi Prison, we see even smaller cells. This kind of 9-square-meter, six-surveillance-camera cell is actually designed to break down any prisoner’s spirit. It’s meant to break you. You’ll lose it, you’ll definitely lose it within this kind of confined space." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think we talk about, in France, for example, a lot of terrorists or suspects of terrorist will be incarcerated in this kind of cell. However, the title 3x3x6 actually taking these prison cell as more of a symbolic space and to expand it into the current surveillance system that we live in." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Consider China’s 20 million facial recognition surveillance camera in every street corner for its land. When Paul start talking about panopticon, the 17th century of Bentham, today I will refer to the panopticon as a data panopticon." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The whole surveillance system with the camera catching us, our data being captured, send in to big data, I think we are all part of bigger panopticon that is really hard to escape or hard to seek another space. In this sense, I really want to maybe stop here and let you continue then. I didn’t finish any sentence, did I?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You asked many questions. Exactly, many different questions. I don’t know, maybe you want to say something about the code. This is quite fascinating to think about the possibility of going beyond binary code. I can talk about the binary regime in gender and sexuality, but I want you to talk about the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll just make one intervention which is, should we talk about always having to find adaptors? That is really true. This old technology called Apple Pencil, it is really symbolic. The only way to charge it is to plug it into the iPad. It looks really gender symbolic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, with the latest generation of Apple Pencil, it no longer works that way. If I may, I can bring out the Apple Pencil. It just attaches itself to the side of the iPad. It’s now magnetic and wireless. What I’m saying is that there are different ways to configure the connections. The old way of binary pairing, basically, assumes a one-on-one relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A one-on-one relationship was there because it’s easier to reason about. It’s easier to program for. It’s easier to code for, basically. Whereas, if you have a WiFi, or a Bluetooth, or a 5G connection there may be any number of devices in the same space. You have to have a lot of software to make the case of why this is more efficient than the old way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will bring in something very technical. In the old way of Internet protocol, which we’re using right now, it’s called IPv4. You know it’s version 4 when you know it’s four digits, 101.101.101.101, which is a real Internet address, by the way. People, generally, find these numbers are limited in numbering. Each number become more and more expensive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Internet community decide to open up the space of Internet devices from V4 to V6. Now you have more spaces than you can have in the number of stars in the universe, perhaps. Now it doesn’t cost anything to have an Internet address. Taiwan has been really growing in adoption of IPv6. IPv6 bring a very interesting technology called the multicast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the old, bad way of Internet, the only way for 50 people to connect to one another is to, essentially, form a hub-and-spoke structure where 50 people connect to the same server. A server redistributes their conversations to one another. Each one has a binary relationship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is the server and the client, which is also kind of sexual in connotation... In any case, that was the old way of, what we call, a singlecast. Now, with multicast, it can be configured in IPv6 in any which way like this. This forms, what we call, a, interestingly, promiscuous -- which is a technical term, I promise you -- a promiscuous configuration where people relate, like gossips, what they hear from each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It enables a much higher quality conversation by having everybody be, at once, the receiver and also the distributor. This multicast, non-binary relationship is within the Internet protocol that we’re now transitioning into as we speak. Taiwan, actually, has the fastest-growing adoption of IPv6." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As basic, as essential as the Internet protocol itself, there is a re-imagination from a more binary, and limited, and scarce resource thought pattern into a more abundant. Everybody can get any number you think of. They all promiscuously connect together in a multicast way. That’s the only intervention I would like to add." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Congratulation. It’s only one hour has passed. We finally bring Internet and sex together." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Just saying, while I was listening to you I thought, \"Oh, something very similar is happening within the discussion in terms of gender and sexuality.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We could read all the fights that have been happening from, let’s say, the late 19th Century in terms of feminism, the homosexual movement, then the gay and lesbian and trans movement, and the queer movement, and so on. We could read all these fights in terms precisely of modifying the epistemology of gender and sexuality." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "To go back into this way of reading history as science fiction, in the sense... When I say this is because basically my experience when reading history of sexuality is that we know so very little of our own history of sexuality. When you read something from the 17th century you might think, \"OK, this is like, this is gonna be either the future, or is completely insane.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s quite interesting to almost learn to think about history differently. I may be, also, once we re- appropriate critically this history...This is almost a moment of cognitive emancipation. If you suddenly say, \"Wow. Things were not the same way, and therefore they can change. They can transform as the code is constantly being transformed and in discussion.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The gender binary system that we have is quite recent. It didn’t exist until the 17th century. Before...At least, I am speaking now about Europe and the West. What we had was a regime with just one sex, the male sex. The female sex didn’t really exist other than just a completely degenerated variation of masculinity." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We could see all the fights within feminism as a way precisely of writing in the code, a way of saying, \"We need to modify this epistemology, to be able to write difference in.\" What is going to happen is that along the 17th and 18th century, what we will have is precisely the invention of the model, this epistemology, let’s say a representation regime, a diagram of knowledge in which things can be represented with two sexes." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is quite recent, but we’re still fighting with that. These two sexes, meaning that you can only be male or female. There’s a huge epistemological crisis happening in the 40s exactly at the time that the Second World War is taking place, exactly at the time that many of the anti-colonial movements are started to grow within the world as well." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly at that point, the medical sciences, but also many of the movements, they realize that many bodies cannot, of human beings, I say that because not all the bodies are immediately human, many bodies cannot be assigned either female or male gender when they’re being born. Therefore, they have to be interbeing." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "They have to be either operated, hormones have to be administrated to them, and this is the moment of the invention of the modern notion of gender and the invention of what we call the John Money protocol, which in a sense is, more or less, I could say is a software in terms of gender that it’s amazing that we keep using this software when we should be rewriting this code constantly." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That’s what we’re trying to do within the movements. For instance, I would say that the work that Shu Lea Cheng is doing is in a sense experimenting with the aesthetics of gender and sexuality, producing an enormous amount of new grammars, of new codings, some of which will not be fully inscribed within reality." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Some of them remain within fiction, but it’s important to have those fictions to be able to imagine political change. The first and most difficult thing to do is to change the way you’re thinking. This is the most difficult thing to do." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is what artists will be helping us doing. What we see now is a strong fight precisely for opening up the binary code within gender and sexuality and maybe something like quite similar to what you were saying before, Audrey, in terms of the IPB six, so something like that that could look like an n+1 genders." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Not just female or male, but any gender, and therefore, maybe avoiding completely to be assigned to female or male gender when you’re being born. Erase fully, completely, therefore, multiply up to infinity the amount of genders that we could have." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This question’s just come up. Audrey, can you read it and translate it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It disappeared. OK. I think that laptop went to sleep." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll give it some time while I go ahead with the plan B, which is to bring it up here..." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I’m not sure." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Better." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Actually, I think in a sense when I say I know, Audrey, I think you are still — always — a hacktivist. In a sense of hacktivism or hacker of technology or computer codes or hacker as a sex and gender and body. When we are talking about hacking, we’re not limited to computer codes anymore. Refer to this particular question about...Would you like to pick up from?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, the question reads, about gender hacking, this discussion falls into the category of post-human or post-humanity. The questioner, which is anonymous, says that it seems to connotate the notion of seeing the subjectivity model as a information modal instead of a material model. It coincides with the idea that consciousness itself is a epiphenomena -- it’s not just phenomena, it’s epiphenomena, it’s something out of the phenomenal world -- or whether it is a new noble in evolution." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They would like to ask about the relationship between information and body: Does it actually mean that subjectivity is purely information, or is it also somewhat body, or body is purely information? What does that even mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Would Paul like to take on this?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I guess that what is changing is what we understand by what a body is. I’m shifting the notion of the body and trying to move to this place, this notion and use the notion of somatic. It’s mostly in French when we speak about a bibliothèque to say a library, for instance. Basically, a huge collection, for me, a body is a living archive." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Within this living archive, there are carbon components and there are silicone components. The body’s not just organic. The body is made out of many different technological and organic components. Some of them are information-based. For instance, what is a body without language?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe a body that has no language at all -- I do not refer to oral speaking but to language -- might not be able to be considered part of the human species, not be able to be welcome within a society. What is human is constantly being discussed. What is human is not just defined by nature." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Even this difference between humanity and animality, between what is alive and what is not alive is also an object of constant political debate. This is constantly being discussed. Just to mention that you can go and see the post-nature exhibition upstairs. That, precisely, is dealing with this issue and this topic." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I don’t like so much when we immediately go into the post-human debate is that it seems that we’re just within the kingdom of just machines. There is no agency. Unfortunately, I would say that machines are our sons, our offsprings." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is one of the things that we’re living with. We’re now in a kingdom where there are already also machines with us. This is not just only machines. Therefore, even machines will have agency and political agency as well. As you know, for instance, now, I don’t know how it’s here." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "The European community has been recently discussing if robots can be considered legal people, legal persons. I don’t know if this debate is taking place here, but I’m sure even more than in Europe." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "With the paradoxical side that at the same time that the European community is discussing this, the same European community is refusing the entrance within the European community of hundreds of thousands of refugees, therefore human, organic, and so on [laughs] that are trying to cross the Mediterranean because of the war among other things on Syria but also because of economic and work conditions in Africa." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What we could say is that what are the conditions for a certain body being a body, organic or non-organic, to be recognized as human and therefore to belong to a human social community, this is a huge political debate and has to be." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, one of the things that I see your work, for instance, is activating this debate and being able to bring more people within that debate, including machines, including the Internet of Things." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I would be cautious about is precisely going into this very dystopic way of thinking, \"Oh, we are in the post-human, and therefore, we’ve done away with any kind of political agency. We have to...\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I don’t know exactly what, but maybe wait for what is happening today as well, that we arrive in Mars and that’s it. A recolonizing the world with the post-human being, something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s something new that Shu Lea has highlighted. It’s from AM0336, which is a very interesting name to have that has more cybernetic nature, I would say. It says, \"Art must constantly intervene in politics until politics stops interfering with art.\" What’s my view on this statement?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As a poetician, my [laughs] main work in politics is to write poems. For me, the intervention of art in politics, I think, must not stop even when politics stops interfering with art. Art need to become politics. When Paul talk about Internet of Things, I was reminded of a poem that I wrote when I was appointed Digital Minister two years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It begins with the idea of Internet of Things, because it was very popular back then. I think it contributes to a discussion that is not healthy. When we talk about Internet of Things, we’re implicitly saying, \"There’s things and there’s humans. Humans use the Internet now, but things will use the Internet in the future.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very post-human kind of discourse and also very binary. I wrote a poem to kind of dissolve that binary, and it’s my job description actually as the Taiwan Digital Minister. It goes like this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see Internet of things, let’s make it an Internet of beings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see virtual reality, let’s make it a shared reality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see machine learning, let’s make it collaborative learning." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we see user experience, let’s make it about human experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And whenever we hear that a singularity is near, let us always remember that a plurality is here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is a poetic take on politics and especially the politics of the Internet of things as Paul just described. That’s my answer to this question. I don’t know whether Paul has something to contribute?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I don’t know if we mean this question maybe bring us back to the question of how to queer the museum that you mentioned before, Shu Lea? In the sense of for me, like asking the question of art and politics in such a abstract way, for me, doesn’t make any sense. This, for me, it’s just like what art, what politics? Of which context are we speaking about?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Art and politics are never separated. Basically, art is always political, right. It can be a bit normative, conservative or it can be very critical, but there is always or it can, in a sense, it can repeat the normative aesthetics, or it can be suddenly like troubling that aesthetics or complicating it or just like introducing some variations within the code." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s not possible that any kind of art will be like completely outside of politics even if it’s just like a beautiful, could be beautiful painting, but beautiful painting is painting according to the canon, and therefore, like reproducing a certain code." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Anyway, but that’s why instead of posing the question as such an abstract level, it’s easier for us to maybe think if we want to think about like, \"OK, can we make the museum more queer, or can we queer the museum, or can we de-patriarchalize the museum, or decolonize the museum?\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that there are several strategies that have been tried out in different places. One of the strategies, that for me has become problematic at a certain point, is the strategy of identity politics and representation which is, basically, saying like, \"OK, for a museum to be more feminist, let’s have more women being exhibited.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For a museum to be more queer, \"Oh, let’s have more homosexual artists being exhibited.\" For a museum to be more decolonial, \"Oh, let’s have more indigenous artists to be exhibited.\" I think that this strategy for me is still problematic in the sense that it contributes to naturalize what we understand for men and women, indigenous and non-indigenous, heterosexual and homosexual." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that the challenge that we’re facing today, as curators or working within the institution, is precisely to change the epistemology of the museum. Can we open the code of the museum? Can we radically say instead of, \"Oh, let’s make a feminist exhibition and let’s invite suddenly 20 women.\" It’s like, \"Hello, but do you think that with 20 women, the horrifying patriarchal idea of art that we already have will change? No.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Maybe it’s not just about inviting men or women or homosexuals or heterosexuals. This is ridiculous. This is buying into the identity politics." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What would be challenging is trying to think collectively and therefore giving more access to the technologies of knowledge production and the technologies of artmaking to all of us to question what we understand for, let’s say, male, female, heterosexual or homosexual, and therefore go beyond those dichotomies." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is what I think that the museum can become a radical democratic place. It might be one of the few spaces today in which all of us..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, if you go to the university or to the school, you’re supposed to be there to get a credit at the end. You go and you say, \"I want to do industrial design.\" You better learn how to do it. [laughs] If you don’t do it well, then you don’t get your credit." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "When you come to the museum, you don’t know what you’re coming for. I think this is the good thing about it, that we don’t come for anything. We come to ask questions, to criticize, to change the way we see the world and to do it with fiction and with poetry." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Therefore, to breaking up the code and maybe collectively inventing other codes that go beyond this binary. I think that this is for me a different way of looking at the museum that being more inclusive and bringing the minorities is completely a different way of saying let’s radically transform the epistemology of the museum." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This is probably a very good point for me to break into this question. I think if we, again, going back to the space and shifting the space, and so, the question will be in this case, how do we queer a country?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For context for Paul, we had a national referenda, five of which about gender and sexuality and marriage equality and everything. The outcome of the referendum is that people generally, and when I say, \"people,\" I mean people who went to vote." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People who went to vote, generally, I mean over majority, wanted a legal protection of their right of so-called same-sex union. Don’t call it marriage in the civil code. Call it something else like gay marriage or whatever, in some other part of the law system outside of the civil code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It will, of course, provide the same level of protection except for the name. That was the outcome of the referenda. The question asks, in this moment of backlash, should we, perhaps, re-understand the idea of a post-house, post-family, post-marriage ideas?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These ideas were discarded during the referenda movement which focused on full marriage equality. Perhaps we should think more about companionship, thinking about a family consist of multiple partners and the other ideas." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe, in this referenda outcome, which is binding, that we will have a separate legal code for so-called same-sex marriage. Maybe we can bring up those new ideas of pluralistic unions. What do you think about it?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Big question. I think that this is an excellent idea. I don’t think it should be like a plan B. It seems like a consolation prize. Like, \"Oh, we didn’t won the election. So, let’s go for plurality.\" I would say it’s a little bit the same discussion that I was trying to evoke when speaking about a museum." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "There are two different strategies. One that I would call liberal democracy, to come back to a more common way of speaking about politics. Liberal democracy in which you assume that everyone is equal in front of the law. From that point on, you say, \"Men, women, heterosexuals, homosexuals...\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Transsexuals is always a problem, but anyway. Like, \"Well, transsexuals, you as well, you’re just there.\" [laughs] \"Well, yes, stay there. Don’t say much.\" You have all these people that are asking to be included and recognized by the law." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "They’re asking having access to the same institutions and the same legal norms than the other ones, right? The problem is that, first -- this is going to sound too harsh -- first we are asking for recognition to a state that, normally, is an agent of violence. It’s very difficult to ask for recognition." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I don’t think we should be asking for recognition. I think we should be very critical, or even it’s like why are we asking for permission to get married, even if marriage is a patriarchal institution that has to do precisely with a restriction of freedom of women historically?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Why do we have to ask for this right? I guess that instead of getting entangled within the whole debate of asking the state for permission to get married or to get a civil union, we should start thinking about how becoming a citizen of the world is changing today." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In which conditions, who is allowed to be a citizen of this world in which some of us are allowed to travel with a passport and have certain conditions and privileges and the rest of the world, which is the majority of the world, have right to nothing mostly? I think it’s a question of radical justice that has to be asked here, not so much asking for permission to the state." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Therefore maybe at least from the point of view of gender and sexuality, I guess that and from experience we have in Europe or in the US in some of the places where they have acquired the right to, let’s say, homosexual marriage, for instance, or civil unions, what we realize is that one of the reasons that this particular law is being used is to have access to live in a particular country, to become citizen of a country." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think this is a major question. It’s having access, the issue of migration today, is much more important than the issue of marriage. This should be at the core of any political discussion rather than marriage." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is one thing. Second thing, as I said before, the debate today within radical gender and queer movements is to get rid of gender assignation at birth. Therefore, if you think it well, if you do not have a paper that says that you’re a man or a woman, then no one has to give you permission to marry someone else, because there will be no heterosexual and no homosexual marriage." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "It’s important for us to think that those notions, heterosexuality and homosexuality that we keep using as they are like rocks, they seem to be that they were in history forever. They’re medical categories that were invented within the 19th century, let alone that have nothing to do with the Chinese tradition. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "That is a whole different discussion. We could also get into that discussion. It’s like why are we discussing with these notions that in a sense were colonial, so had nothing to do with the way of understanding sexuality within, let’s say, oriental culture and at the beginning, right." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that what is interesting for me is sometimes to change the terms of the debate, because otherwise, it seems that within the movements, we keep saying like, \"Oh, we have to get the equality right to, like equal rights for marriage.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is like if this will structure all fights within the movement, and then we lose so much time when the actual questions today are like much more about accessing technologies. Of course, marriage is an institution and therefore is a technology, but is it the technology that we really want to construct ourselves today? Hm, maybe not." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "How useful is this technology compared let’s say, for instance, to coding or programming now? [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll say something about citizenry access. In Taiwan, many of us, I think most of us here have something what we call the National ID. Everyone has a National ID that maybe look like A, I don’t know, 2235 something, something, something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People of a foreign passport, even if they have permanent resident certificate, maybe, they have been like spending all their life in Taiwan, they have a something like AC23 something, something. They have a different class of an identification number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re prevented, actually, access that shouldn’t be excluded, but are excluded because of code. If people go to order a movie ticket, or if they order some meals online, or maybe they buy a train ticket from the train station and use the Chinese, not the English interface of the website, they will be asked to fill in a National ID." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Where they put in AC223 something, it will be rejected, saying, \"It is not a valid National ID because the second digit is not a digit. It is a alphabet.\" Because of that, they’re denied access that by law and by regulation, actually, should be provided to permanent residents, but is rejected simply because the letter don’t look like a digit, which is very much in tune of this citizenry access." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, starting next year, we’re going to change that. The number here is going to be changed. The AC something, something, it will be replaced by a 9 something, something. Basically, the numbers seven, eight and nine will be used in place of the letters C and so on, AC and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is a change in the design of the code, not the legal code, just computer code, just the numbering system to provide more inclusive access of visitors, permanent residents and everybody in between, who don’t hold a local passport, to still have access to local services." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That brings a interesting thing because there’s many countries with passport of a non-binary gender now. We, traditionally, use the second digit to distinguish between the genders." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What do we do of foreign nationals when they become getting this new numbers that are non-binary? Do we force them to choose eight or nine or do we roll a dice or something? The result is that we make the number seven the non-binary digit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you choose to be a non-binary in your home country, if your passport says you’re non-binary, then here you’re also non-binary. Our entire computer code system has to be rewritten to recognize the potentiality of a non-binary gender. I’m saying this purely on a code level. This is not a law-level thing." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think this is super interesting. This shows that, instead of fighting for gay marriage, for instance, we could be fighting to change administration codes. Basically, deleting certain codes or modifying them, or being able to rewrite other codes. This is a completely different discussion than just fighting for marriage." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "We’re quite aware of the frustration up to the election, particularly with the vote in the referendum with totally public participation who voted no to the same-sex marriage. However, as Paul mentioned, we really do have to question all the system that, what are we fighting for? What are we fighting against?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It seems like we are so much driven by certain cooperative actions that we want to get into the discussion about what is the cooperation action? In that sense, what would the solidarity alliance be?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Rather than fighting for the name of marriage or the couple or that, what would be a bigger or a different, alternative agenda that we can get into without confine ourself into finding our space in society or the norm?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I guess that has to do with leaving behind or going beyond identity politics. Which is, if you organize your fights according to identity politics, then women are supposed to be fighting for feminism. Gay people, whatever they are, they are supposed to be fighting for gay rights, trans, and so on and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Then, if you can do the same within nationalist language, you can also be fighting for this or that nation for this or that identity. If you go beyond that identity framework, then you have to start constructing, what I call, synthetic alliances, alliances that are not based on natural identity." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We are precisely questioning natural identity, that identity is natural. Identity is always culturally and politically constructed. Those alliances cannot be based on identity. What is a woman is still a full discussion. What is a man is still a full discussion, let alone what is to be Taiwanese or Chinese? I’m not going to get into that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Those are big questions that cannot be answered immediately and through a natural set of empirical elements. All of them have to be the object of a critical debate, have to be open for fictional and political imagination." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Unavoidable, the question of the technological utopianism was mentioned here in a question. I guess this is another good topic to get into, isn’t it, utopia? In my work, I swing between being called my work is utopian or dystopian. In a certain way, we all swing in between these two state of mind or states. Audrey?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. I have been called an imagineer, I think imagineering is a real word, when I worked on a new computer language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The computer language try to bring together different paradigms of programmers thinking about a world of the functional paradigm, of thinking the world as mathematics; or the object-oriented paradigm where people think of the world as objects interacting with each other; or the imperative, where people think of machines as subjects to obey a command and logical and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many different world views. Back when we were doing the Perl 6 language, which now has a name called Raku, or in Japanese, I think it’s just happiness. The Raku language is now done in the sense that it’s a stable language that’s running in computers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It enables people who view the world through a particular lens to nevertheless compose something that can be understood and interacted with by people who view the world with a different lens. That was considered impossible or at least extremely difficult 10 years ago. We did that anyway. When we did that, it’s called imagineering." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To that question, I would simply want to show this 17 colors that I’m wearing on my shirt all the time. These are what the United Nations call the sustainable development goals, or the SDGs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To many people indeed, I would also make the case that even the SDGs itself that we need by year 2030 get to the point of there’s no poverty, where there’s education for everyone, where there’s access to justice and things like that and climate change and affordable energy and so on is utopian." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I will not deny that. What they did, the UNDP did, is that around 2012 or so, they started planning a questionnaire to ask more than one million people in the world what is the future you want to see in the year 2030? There’s one million voices. Their report is literally called, \"A Million Voices.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They collected all those wishes and merged them into 169 targets and say, \"If we reach these targets by 2030, then everybody seems like it’s the world they want.\" They make it such that if you work on any of those targets, it will not harm people working on any other targets. It’s self-reinforcing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Philosophy itself, I admit it is utopian to think that people working on economic growth, people working on environmental protection and working on social progress can somehow magically reinforce each other’s work. Of course, that is utopian thought." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, it is what Immanuel Kant would say a regulative thought or a regulative concept in the sense that if we are to proceed as a unity, we have to hold certain patterns of thoughts in mind. It’s not that they’re constitutive, meaning that we can’t actually do anything with them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are just goals. They don’t say how to reach those goals. If we don’t keep these in mind, the unity itself and the very possibility of breaking apart from the prisons that is the individual sectors and individual movements become impossible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once we hold the image of, for example, as digital minister, I hold the image of the 17.18 of enhancing availability of reliable data. I hold the image of 17.17, of encouraging effective cross-sectoral partnerships, and 17.6, which is if we make an innovation, we don’t colonize other place in Earth with it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We open it up to share with everyone. Of course, we don’t do 100 percent on any of this, but every day, we make a little bit more contribution toward these goals. These are regulative in nature. I would say, of course, the formation, the imagi- of imagination is utopian." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The -nation of imagination, it is everyday action. That is cooperative, to answer Shu Lea’s question, is to hold similar thought patterns constitutive in mind but then do actions that are within the spirit of the constitution, but not the regulative idea -- which are really just ideas -- you can’t do anything about them. It is like the old Kantian model of regulative ideas." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For once, even though, as I said the other day, I used to be a pathological utopist or utopian. For once, I think I’m going to play the other side. You have to apologize, maybe because I don’t know well enough the context here as to really be able to discuss the issues that are probably worrying you here in the audience." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "What I can tell you is that, in the West, we are going through a double moment of, on one side, revolution. I would say that, yes, there is a revolution going on. That revolution not only happened in, let’s say, the 1960s as we traditionally think." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Also, happening now in all the underground, sub-alter movements that are fighting precisely to have access to the technologies of government, to the technologies of knowledge production, to the technologies of inscription. Yes, this is a revolution happening today." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You see it also here but all around the world in terms of feminism, the sexual minorities, the colonized that are in a whole process of decolonization. This is happening. At the same time, there is also a counter-reform going on with a full movement towards much more conservative thinking, even, at least in the West, and Europe, and in the US, neo-fascist thinking." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Extremely nationalist and extremely based on ideas of identity, blood, soil, territory. Even though, totally, I hear you, Audrey, and I would love to share your utopian language. When I see myself, that finishing up poverty in the world is a goal, I would say, \"Well, yes.\" What do we understand by poverty? Is poverty defined in capitalist terms? How is this defined in relation to the market?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "To go back to the discussion that we had today, in the beginning, is that, are we able to think, even, about what is a good life beyond the standards of neo-liberal capitalism? Maybe, I don’t know. At least, to tell you the truth, in the West, my doubts are enormous. Basically, I live between France and Spain but I travel enormously. I can’t be optimistic about the situation, I have to say." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, I would say that we need a new grammar. What health means today is being defined in very normative terms. I’m going to give you a very basic example. If you think about being HIV positive in Taiwan today, this is almost a crime. If you are HIV positive, you have to declare your status to the government." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Therefore, from that point on, your whole life and sexuality will be the object of surveillance. This is for the public health, in benefit of the public health. What does it mean to keep using the notion of health? The same with poverty, or progress, or advancement, or transparency, those notions, for me, are problematic." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We need to collectively search for a new grammar to speak even beyond the binary, not only in the sense of the binary male, female, homosexual, heterosexual or even the binary code, but also the east and the west, these notions, the north and the south, do not mean anything anymore. It’s ridiculous that we keep using them." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Even in the art world today we’ll keep talking about the global south. I’m like, \"What is this global south?\" The south is everywhere and it’s nowhere. It’s a colonial notion. I refuse to keep talking about the global south as if, for instance, Taiwan would be within the global south and then whatever." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "From that point on, immediately there are a series of consequences of that location, whereas we know that cartographies are also politically constructed." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I’m saying this because, as much as I want to fully agree with your good sense [laughs] that it is valid to bring Kant within these conversations because of those goals. I want to agree to those good goals with, \"Why not?\" As much as I want to do that, as a philosopher, and in this sense even a curator, but much more as a philosopher..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "When you’re doing poetry, you can have a moment of just not caring too much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Poetic license." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Exactly. As a philosopher, you have to take some responsibility." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You realize that the language that we are using to define what progress will be within the next 30 years, or 20 years if we’re thinking about 2030, has to be critically and extremely quickly revised if we don’t want to promote something that I would call necropolitics, which is buying again into the politics of destruction of the planet and using the human and non-human beings equally for the purpose of production and consumption." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I totally agree. Back in 2015 when the Sustainable Goals was first defined as the global goals, one of its so-called pinnacle of a philosophical change is that it stops talking about developing nations and developed nations, which was a huge thing back in the Millennium Development Goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is, I think, a genuine grammar change, because it means that no matter where you are, as long as you are on the planet, you want to get there, somewhere, regardless of developed or developing. But I do agree it’s not going far enough." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Many part of the SDGs are still defined, for example, in terms of the gross domestic product, which is now widely seen as a bankrupt metric for any kind of progress whatsoever. Post-GDP well-being is actually a large part of the sustainable development discourse." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even, we can problematize this \"development\" word itself. Why not just sustain? Why development? What’s development for? These things, I do agree that we need to critically examine and re-develop until we don’t just think in terms of development." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I don’t know if we have time to break into the question about the freedom. How would you translate/transfer the possibility of virtual freedom in the limited praxis of the modern mundanity of the masses?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I do actually have a little doubt about virtual freedom. I do not particularly want to endorse. Virtually, we do have more freedom than in reality. However, maybe this is a good question for us to get back to the title what we set up to do, \"Freedom, Art, [laughs] and Democracy.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They used...By \"they,\" I mean this person who calls themself, \"How would you translate a metaphor?\" which is great name, by the way. They used translate/transfer, but that is a very interesting combination because it’s almost never together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you [laughs] translate, you’re really bringing a copy, maybe a imperfect one, but you’re bringing a copy. If you transfer, it kind of means that the original is gone. It make it to the other end. It’s not a copy, it’s the same thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these represent two different views of freedom. I wouldn’t even talk about virtual. One is that freedom is something that you need to fight for. It is never complete. You can get a translated version, and maybe you open up some possibility and the next generation will have more freedom." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very progressive view, which was true, certainly is true in Taiwan. I still remember the Martial law days when I was a young child. There’s, of course, less freedom, and it’s a objective fact because when people publish something the rulers don’t want to see, they get disappeared." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, we can objectively say there was less freedom of assembly, of publishing, of speech, of whatever 30 years before. Compared to now, I think we can say that. It also says the possibility of transfer, which means that it’s got a complete transfer. Once you have this freedom imbued in the flesh, then you completely free up, liberate, emancipates oneself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these are two very different takes on freedom that will warrant different pathways into praxis. I don’t even know the freedom they refer to in these two verbs are the same freedoms. Does Paul have something?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No, I agree with you that freedom is not something that is there as an object that we get, right. It’s like suddenly, OK, we have something that we have to obtain that is freedom." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that freedom has to be invented. We don’t even know what it is to be free. I think that’s the radical problem is that we only know freedom within the limits of a very already constrained set of actions." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, to go back to the example of transitioning, when I was a child, for myself, I couldn’t even think about gender freedom because there was no framework in which being free in terms of gender could be thought. It was just like a total impossibility." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I would say that, yes, for me, freedom has to do precisely with the expansion of the possibilities of thinking, change, and transformation much more than with acquired something that we already know what it is." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Then, what is more worrying me about this question, and sometimes, I wish we could have discussions with how would you translate a metaphor that should be around maybe here, oh you’re there. OK, great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Do we have a spare microphone?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yeah. Yeah maybe you can...because I think it’s fantastic to have the interface, for instance, for you to be able to have some inscription on the wall but if you’re here, then you can even more actively talk to us or talk to us..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, please. Is there a spare microphone or should we take Shu Lea’s?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "You have a mic on the seat." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "No, it’s not working." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Would you like to...?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. Maybe you can help holding it." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Like this." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "All right, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "First of all, thank you. I think this is the most progressive political and contemporary art interaction I’ve ever seen in my life." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "In your life, maybe not." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Maybe it’s limited, my experience, but this is like really something else. The idea was that my worries about this freedom that I see every day, for example on my Facebook wall because I have a lot of progressive friends and with my discussions with my friends." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Then when I got out, for example, I live in a wider angle or a wider range from my comfort zone, there’s a really different perspective. I love the title. I really like what’s happened over here." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I was wondering if there’s like a methodology or some kind of measures to take all this brilliant content to the masses that actually sometimes when you actually try to talk about...even with these concepts like industrial revolution, cooperative action, they’re like, \"what are you talking about?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "When we talk, for example, about social actions and we see, for example, the civil war -- this is an example -- a lot of poets or artists try to put all the stuff that was in the cloud of the progressive movement and put it in the ground, for example, and going to the camp and going to the rural landscape." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "What I see here is that in the mutual zones, we’re actually building a little brilliant content. The challenge is to take it forward to the places that light happen is just not there right now. My question is, what did we do about this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I can take the Facebook one. That brings us to a third kind of freedom, right? It’s not just freedom to do something or freedom for some kind of people but also freedom from something, negative freedom. I think that’s the philosophical term. For your Facebook feed, I would like to invite you to try this for a bit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ve been working with this plug-in, in both mobile and desktop version, for more than two years now. It’s called, very simply, the Newsfeed Eradicator. It tears down the Facebook wall, so to speak, and replace it with some inspiring quote. In this instance Adler. You can a get different quote every time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What it does is very simple. It takes the wall away and replace it with something inspiring. The effect, very simply, is that it frees you from the algorithm meddling, manufactured addiction, the fear of missing out, and many other mental health hazards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It does keep Facebook in its more intentional part. You can still use it like a blog to post something. You can use it like a search engine. You can search for a hashtag. You can visit your friend’s profile. You can visit a Facebook page. You can watch your live stream. These are all good social functions because you make an action and you see the result happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The wall is something else. You do nothing and then things that fit your self-image that is done by symbiotic, since you are also playing, a symbiotic relation AI that’s building for you, which is the filter bubble or whatever thing that you’re describing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would suggest the simple fix, that is the Newsfeed Eradicator that can make this parasitic/symbiotic relationship go away. It makes you much happier. At least, it made me much happier. [laughs] About bringing this kind of freedom to the masses, I would just use one particular example. It will just take a couple seconds." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, we have a long history of social innovators who took something that looks like opposing forces like the capitalistic regime and the social solidarity regime, into something that is collaborative and adds to each other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many organizations operating for more than 20 years through co-ops, through foundations, through companies and so on that reinforces these forces. I would use one example because it’s literally happening in my office, in the social innovation lab in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called [Taiwanese] or the Endowed City, which is working with people who are in wheelchairs and are usually street vendors selling, I don’t know, chewing gums, or tissue papers, and so on. Working with them, in a way, through excellent visual assets drawn and designed by people with Down’s syndrome who understand the world through a geometric, not textual way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of their unique geometric composition, they get much more people’s attention. Also, gets people into a more relaxed and collaborative mood. Using those regulative designs to address the issue of not knowing what the street vendors’ financial flow is, of their limited interaction with the people on the street, and with their \"supply chain management,\" a very capitalistic term." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, the group’s working on enabling them for better interaction, for redesigning the wheelchair to be a mobile station to connect them to the city services of fair trade and so one. They began with nothing else than just a sketch. That’s all they started with." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They began to sketch, and now they have a monitor here that can show advertisements, that can, through crowdfunding, share WiFi. You can bring your phone for charging, sharing folded umbrellas and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They are operating in Ximending and the Social Innovation Lab right now. These are the kind of social innovations that I speak of, because at first, it is in the masses. You can’t get more massive people than Ximending around here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, it brings a different imagination by staying in front of these street vendors a little bit, you’re already participating in the solidarity-building movement by essentially not seeing them as \"vulnerable populations,\" but useful contributors and not just useful, but artful contributors to the streetscape." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many more cases like these where the initial intervention of speculative design, I will not say \"art\" because it’s too positive a term, [laughs] design is more positive in this case. Art may be dystopic, but speculative design always positive. Showing the possibility space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People crowdfund and crowdsource themself into this kind of atmosphere. When I talk about the masses, I’m not talking abstractly. Because of my office hour in the social innovation lab -- this is my office, by the way -- so anyone can come and talk to me including rough sleepers, social workers who work with them and so on, every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I also go to people. When I talk about masses, I talk about specific interventions that brings speculative design into the masses, not the masses in abstract." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "This is probably a very good time to open up a bit of questions from the floor." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Since we have an example, and so would somebody else follow?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Should someone like to raise hand and microphone can be passed to you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s portable microphone next to every seat." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Oh, really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "OK, cool." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Great technology." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Otherwise if there’s no question for the time begin, I wanted to say that I would fully avoid using the notion of the masses because basically this is a notion that implies that there is a look from the point of view of the state and there is something that we cannot govern that is a mass, something like that." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Whereas basically what I see with today much more than even if I think about..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I mean, I’m from Spain. I grew up in the ’80s, so immediately after the dictatorship in Spain. I kind of have the same experience of basically coming from martial law into something else. My experience is that we are the first global generation, and in the sense even if we have like 10 years of difference." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We are the first global generation who have access in a major way to knowledge, whatever this is, and technologies compared to, let’s say, the generation of our parents or our grandparents. The problem is that we keep looking at society in a very condescending way, like, \"Oh, these people, they are stupid. They have no idea.\" Even, this is also happening within the museum, within the university." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "When you’re elaborating a project, they always tell you, \"No, no, you have to do it much slower because people are so stupid, they will understand nothing.\" You’re like, \"What people are you talking about? These people are a hundred times more sophisticated than ever before.\" Therefore, I think that this is what is really triggering this counter-reform that I was speaking before." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Is that no one before in history, we have been globally so ready as for a global, planetary revolution, never before. Now, we could do it. My question is the opposite to yours. My question is why we don’t do it? Why we’re not cooperating like crazy altogether. Saying, \"Hey guys, we have to live differently.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We cannot continue producing, consuming, trashing the world, destroying the environment. We immediately need to invent other technologies of living together that might not be directly turned into consumption and production. Therefore, that’s my big question. Another language that is not the language, even, of sustainability. To sustain what?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "There’s nothing to sustain at this point. For me, it has to be a language of transition, of transitioning from this model of economy, production, and planetary destruction into something else. This can only be done collectively. For that, we need to stop looking at bodies, human or not human, organic or non-organic, as masses." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "To start look at them as all of them being an element within a complex technology. Basically, is a question a little bit like what Audrey was speaking about before when she was speaking about how many different either machines or instruments can connect, or cables can be connected to each other?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We need to use this possibility of multiple connection for something other than for consumption or production. This is the moment of planetary revolution, for me. I hope that some of you can join us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just want to say these persuasive electric vehicles are coming back to the social innovation lab soon. They’ve visited twice already. They’re self-driving tricycles. When we talk about AI here, I always talk about assistive intelligence, not artificial, assistive intelligence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just because assistive rhymes with collective so that I can say assistive intelligence working with collective intelligence. It actually really works this way. They’re kind of slow. It doesn’t harm anyone if they run into buildings. They are self-driving. It’s all open-source. You can change it to fit your need." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you go to Jianguo flower market, buy some flowers, put it into the pot, put it onto those PEVs. They will follow you like companion animals. By the end of it, you can hop on one and it drives you home." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you don’t like the red flash used to communicate emotion, you can change it to a face of a dog. Why not? Use other non-verbal means to communicate. The whole point is that it is not a one-on-one relationship. It is not a single lab in the MIT or in any multinational manufacturing mass-producing these creatures. It is back to the idea of personal computing and social computing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Basically, everybody gets to modify and change and tweak the norms around these creatures so that they can fit better into the social fabric by us understanding also better from their perspective." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this sense, they’re not that different from other existing categories that we put on people, the identity politics that Paul just talked about. If we free them up, we think about how to live together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is the far easier, actually, question to ask than how many representatives are we going to include today from carbon-based and silicon-based life forms, which will not work, actually, in this setting." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The sense of you’re actually a fork in the robot. I think we also mentioned about fork in the democracy, want to kind of bring back as what Paul was saying the paradigm revolution, I think, is a very important term, actually." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Whatever the frustration from the election today in Taiwan or on the right-wing taking over globally, I think as an artist, who we are, curator, philosopher, cultural workers." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I include everybody in this room. It’s back to what would the resistance means, particularly in the certain, going back to the title, three times three times six, the civilian system that we live in, what would resistance mean today?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I feel myself, as Paul said, I’m also a activist. I’m also a media activist. We are the code activist. In this case, I’m always wondering about the masses. I get back to the masses." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The masses, all the mundanity or the masses on the street holding the rainbow flag particularly, for example or the recent rainbow on the Facebook status [laughs] report. These kind of, I think it’s almost like what would be this kind of gesture, the gesture of resistance." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "In a certain way, I think we are coming back to more of a gesture of resistance. I’m not so sure about how to generate the power of resistance. I think before, when we are out on the street, we are counting the heads, and we’re counting the hats, how many people on the street." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "We know all the time, by the time we got home and watch the TV, this was before the mobile phone time, that the television report, the media report, will cut the masses into half." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "The police report also cut the mass into maybe one third. In a certain way, what would these masses be? Again, we’ve been through the street movement, and we also through the digital disturbance on the net. Either in terms...I really want to question Paul’s idea about very much to find the new grammar, the paradigm, and basically reposition ourselves. Isn’t it? How do we reposition ourselves?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Before I thought there was a question. Someone that had a question there. Just in case, after you’ve been waiting for so long..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like finally." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "...talking about cooperation, without letting you speak for two hours, I think is too much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Would you like to...because there’s people watching live streaming." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "我可能代表年紀比較大、保守那一派的，這一次選舉，我想唐先生，好嗎？你也是官員，因為剛剛好像談了很多同性戀，這一次公投是挫敗的，對不對？我想在座是同意吧！您對這個有什麼看法？" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "我們臺灣認同同志戀，剛剛討論了很多，剛剛最後一個鄭女士，她說的……我不曉得這個為什麼突然斷電？繼續拿著彩虹旗在街頭抗爭，有什麼意義？" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "我不是台北市人，我是新北市人，我從苗栗趕來，我頭腦沒有說很脫節，我常常看新聞；都沒有翻譯？我不曉得他等一下翻譯得出來嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "有同步翻譯。" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "好。因為關係到我們整個社會，臺灣真的是很自由，說真的我感覺到不會比美國更不自由，甚至青出於藍。" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "這一次公投是不是表示我們臺灣社會對於同志這一段時間來的，尤其我們蔡總統，也許我比較沒有瞭解，但是我常常看新聞，她是不是世界上獨一、還沒有結婚的就當上國家領導人的總統？好像同志們就藉著總統（國家元首）好像懷疑同性戀，不是我懷疑喔！她在剛當選的時候，有一個民進黨的元老就質疑她，我從報紙上很大的篇幅就在質疑她是不是同性戀，她沒有答覆，所以是不是鼓勵我們很多同性戀在蔡英文任內來爭取婚姻平權？" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "這一次公投才幾個？5、6個，是不是？同志的公投佔了至少1/3到1/2吧！是不是？我想請唐先生是不是可以提出你的感想？或者是將來同志戀應該要怎麼樣？讓我們社會觀感會好一點還怎麼樣？下一次公投是不是大家可以爭取更多的公投票的同意？謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我就用現代漢語回答。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我想第一個是我們先看事實的部分，您剛才說在世界上臺灣是不是一個比美國還要自由的地方？我想這個是可以實際去量測的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這也是在世界上有一個叫做「CIVICUS Monitor」組織，每一次只要發生一件事，是把人的言論、自由、集會自由、結社自由等等剝奪掉的國家力量去剝奪人民自由的，當地的人權團體就會回報到這裡，然後這個國家就會扣分，直到這個國家的法制或情況改變，讓這一些人有這樣的自由為止，所以確實你看「亞洲」，再選「完全自由」，只有臺灣而已，而且一路到非洲都是這樣子，我想這個是事實。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們不是說比紐西蘭、澳洲，或者一些北歐或者是歐洲的朋友們市民空間來得大，可能沒有到這個地步，但是至少在這個區域，我們應該是自由的程度是最大的，按照這個網站的寫法，可能跟加拿大也是類似，是比美國好一些的，這個都是事實，我想這個是可以彼此同意的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "第二個也是事實的部分，我想這一次就像剛剛淑麗說的，大家在FB上面確實也都看到了很多人換成彩虹顏色的頭像，或者是有一個是「Together Stronger」，大家在一起就可以變得好像比較強一些，我想在公投之後有這樣子一個大規模的、大家覺得好像要在一起變得更強的想法，我想這個也是事實。這個是我們都可以客觀看到的，我想這些大概大家都不爭執，這些都是真的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "那至於臺灣作為一個言論自由、集會、結社自由這麼高的地方，當然大家都有自由去覺得說，好比像您剛剛提到同性戀者的永久結合，像婚姻的權利要不要叫「婚姻」，這個是雙方都有言論自由去說，一邊覺得應該就叫「婚姻」，另外一邊叫「伴侶」或「同性婚姻」或是別的，但總之不是婚姻，我想這個也是事實的部分。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "接下來我就要講感受的部分，我自己小時候我記得家人告訴我說婚姻是一個社會儀式，就是要請客、請好命婆之類的，有一些社會角色，要辦一個很大的婚禮活動，而這個活動發生之後，婚姻就完成了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "但是活動發生之後也許可以登記，但這個登記是事後追認，結婚是家族的事情、社會的事情，盛大辦一個儀式，婚姻就完成了。但是state，我們政府很後面再做就好了。就像人出生就出生了，你再去辦出生登記，那個是事後的事。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "但是比我年紀小的朋友們，我們從2007年改成登記婚制度之後，對婚姻的想像是完全不一樣的，在2007年之後婚姻是政府的動作，你去戶政事務所登記結婚，登記完之後不管你有沒有辦婚禮，不管你婚禮是在之前或者是之後辦，甚至乾脆不辦婚禮，或者是婚禮只有兩個見證人來，隨便，這個都叫「婚姻」。這是小一輩的朋友們、2007年以後結婚的朋友們，對婚姻是這樣的想像。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "這個事情就像Paul剛剛講的，我們在講marriage的時候，我們現在採取2007年以後一種西方的觀點，是國家所給予的權利、保護等等，但是這個在2007年以前在臺灣並不是這樣子的，我們覺得婚姻就是家族的事情、是大家的事情，所以我覺得重點倒不是哪一邊對。很可能並沒有哪一邊對的問題，很可能是同樣「婚姻」兩個字，不同世代的朋友們腦裡冒出來的景象完全不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "因此當公投說「您是否覺得民法婚姻……」之類的時候，投的人、蓋下去的東西，看到「婚姻」二字的時候，很可能腦裡冒出來是不一樣的，年輕的朋友是去戶政事務所登記，但是老一輩的朋友冒起來，很可能是辦一個很大的喜酒，如果是信別的宗教也許有證婚的動作，我想這個對話的開始，是我們這一次公投才讓這個對話開始。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我有很多朋友因為這一次的公投才所謂的出櫃，就是跟家裡的人說他同性戀的經驗，或者是雙性戀的經驗，或者是跨性別的經驗，他家人第一次瞭解到他的角度來看婚姻，或者是他們家長角度看婚姻是不一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我想這個對話才剛開始，你說這個對話往哪一個地方走也不一定，但是有對話本身是一個好事，這個是我的回答。" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "It’s a big pleasure, an honor to be here today. My question concerns the idea of liberal democracy and also the inclusion of people into families having children, marriage also." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Just a small story. I was at a seminar organized by the United Nations University in Japan this summer. Many of the speakers, they spoke of getting rights to minorities because it was focused on Sustainable Development Goals from a gender perspective." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My constant question was, how is it that it’s so focused on getting these equal rights? I just spoke of marriage. In many countries today, there is a special treatment for people who are married. They get tax preferences, access to certain services, etc., or that adoption for some of the people having children also get special treatment." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Why is it often focused as getting the inclusions of certain minorities when it may rather be the case of, for example, not having marriage for a specific set of minorities, but rather perhaps not having the concept of marriage in society at all, that the people are free?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We can barely listen. Can you maybe use the mic or use the...?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Is it better now? I guess talk again." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "The main idea I wanted to say is that it’s often focused on getting or the lectures in the seminar...I’m sorry. I’m not very familiar with this whole subject. It’s focused on getting equal access to marriage and having a family, etc., which is a very normative concept, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "I was wondering, why is there such a focus on getting people into these definitions instead of perhaps, legally at least, getting rid of or freeing people from the definition of marriage and preferential treatment, having a family, giving the preferential treatment in society by law and the government to a certain set of people instead of as a liberal democracy where we would have more equal rights to everyone?" }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "Which is also, by the way, very strange that if the law states that all persons are equal, still legally there’s been such a maltreatment. Mistreatment still continues today. I’m wondering how the lawmakers are actually coping with this due to the fact that it should state that everyone should be treated equally, but they’re obviously not." }, { "speaker": "Audience Member", "speech": "My main question is, I wonder why is the debate perhaps often focused on getting people into these definitions of marriage, family, and legal preferential treatment of certain people and sometimes perhaps not much focused on removing these legal concepts and letting people define that between themselves, between their own contracts between persons, seeing them as individuals rather than as legal persons intervened in a very specific legal concept?" }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Paul, you want to pick up? Maybe we talked briefly on this, because I think you did talk about some of these issues in terms the marriage and the norm." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Yeah. Maybe a way of asking to both questions at the same time. I understand the worries of the person who spoke before in the sense that I also went through the debate, for instance, in Europe, in France, in Spain, or in other places. I heard also the complaints from not just the older generation. I used to hearing these remarks." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For me, it’s interesting to think about. A very basic issue is who is allowed to be a full citizen in a given society. Therefore, as long as we keep positions of a subaltern citizenship, like basically, I would say bodies because as long as not full citizenship has been granted to a body, you’re not really fully human in this society." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, in a certain society, being human means having the right to get married and to celebrate your marriage with your family and give a big banquet and this part of a social ritual. If you’re not able to do that, therefore you’re kind of excluded out of what it means to be human within that society." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think that it’s impossible to discriminate by law. This is what we’re talking about when...I mean as much as I have been saying before that myself, I think the most radical thing to do would be abolishing the gender assignment at birth." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think this is the most radical thing to do. As long as we’re not ready to have that debate, meanwhile, if you want, as a kind of tactical or strategic politics, we can also get into debates of more reform in terms of the law, which also can be...both discussions can happen at the same time and are happening at the same time in fact." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "While some of the most radical, let’s say, critical thinkers within gender, we’re discussing like how to change the paradigm and how to change the framework as long as defining how many genders we will be assigning or maybe no gender." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "At the same time, there can be a debate that has to do with the reform within the law to create more spaces of full citizenship and avoid violence of the state of state violence and state discrimination." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "This is what we...I mean I think that if we have citizens that are allowed to get married and some that are not allowed to get married because of different reasons -- it can be because they are like homosexual, transsexual but also because they are like, let’s say, as we said the other day, Down syndrome or what happens, for instance, when you are in jail to come back to the project that we’ve been discussing with and we’re working on towards the Benny’s biennial with Shu Lea." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "When you’re in prison, you have absolutely no rights. You’re really stripped of all your rights. Is this even legal? Maybe not. What are the conditions that grant full citizenship in a certain society?" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think as long as we have are still defining citizenship in terms of having access to marriage, then we need to say anybody can have access to marriage. Otherwise, we have to abolish marriage. If we are not doing that, then we agree that the state can discriminate." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "For instance, what I think myself, when we’re having debates on feminism, for instance, is that we are operating already a kind of discrimination as soon as we assign gender at birth. That’s the way in which we’re saying, \"Male or female. Therefore if it’s female, let’s throw it to the garbage.\"" }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "We know what globally within this patriarchal heterosexual regime means to be female, no matter that some people decide to be female otherwise. When you are assigned female at birth, this is the reality." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "I think it’s an issue of avoiding discrimination and changing the conditions that give access to citizenship. Those can be discussed. I think it’s a very good thing that they’re..." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Shu Lea’s telling me to be short, but that we are discussing these things. I think this is the most important thing. Nothing can be solved in one vote. It’s voted, fine. It’s lost, OK. If it’s next time, whatever. Let’s keep talking about it." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "It’s very difficult for me to break your conversation, particularly it’s a very emotional statement. I think this talk about the gender and about this gender at birth that related to the marriage system that we seem to be sudden concern has been such a big issues and is such a big grand issues and in terms of what we have gone through today in all the topics we talk about, it’s true. It’s such a heavy issue." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "We also moved the time up, 4:30. I don’t know if the streaming had a particular time limit here, but I do, maybe as an artist moderator, which moderating artist, [laughs] I want to maybe bring to the two last question. Actually, this is some question I will not attempt to answer." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "I think it seems as an artist and people are still feeling as an artist, I think we are facing the issue about being an artist and not what would be the connection with the general public or our art not being understood by the general public or someone posting that our conversation here today would never understood by the general public." }, { "speaker": "Shu Lea Cheang", "speech": "Nobody would look at our discussion video for more than one minute. With that remark, I close this panel." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you for your questions." }, { "speaker": "Paul B. Preciado", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "歡迎大家來到我們巡迴座談會，有wifi，今天有無線網路，這個是在台東TTmaker，頻寬非常地快。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果已經連上網路的話，或者是自己手機有到網路的話，都可以掃描到QR code，不然就是連到網站sli.do，如果是QR code的話，會直接進入一個聊天室，如果是開sli.do的話，那還要輸入五個數字，也就是01129。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "進去之後是一個匿名的聊天室，為什麼是匿名的？也許一方面像要分享無線網路密碼這一些，不需要特別寫名字，另外是任何人發言的時候都很歡迎直接在這上面提出問題、追問、補充資料，因為我們有跟台北連線的朋友，用唸的話，網址會一長串，大家也聽不懂，所以會補充資料或者是網址或者是法規命令等等的話，很歡迎放到sli.do補充，列在上面列入記錄的程度跟舉手現場麥克風發言是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你看到上面有一些資訊或者是有一些想要詢問的問題，你也想問的話，只要在上面按讚就可以了，讚的數量越高越會浮到上面，我們會越早看到，這個是線上的空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在到兩個半小時左右的時間，會分成三個段落，第一個是先請台東的自我介紹一下，先講您的組織，不管您是合作社型態、協會型態、基金會型態、公司型態的社會企業、團體等等，然後還有您的大名、如何稱呼，還有這一次來這邊有沒有什麼主要想要討論的事情，儘量簡短，一、兩句話，我們會從大家感興趣的事情來討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前已經書面看到一些提問了，所以我們第二個部分會在台東、台北的朋友們自我介紹完之後，我們就會進入書面提問討論的部分，會把大家書面曾經提過的問題，我們會逐一地進行處理，在這邊特別講的是，我們通常在這邊即時跟台北部會確認，當場就可以知道這個球落到誰家就差不多了，像之前在巡迴的時候，勞動合作社的朋友們都提到在做政府承攬合約等等的問題，我們確認這個是工程會、勞動部、內政部、衛福部的事情，大家都各自把權責劃分、搞清楚之後，我們回去再開協調會，現在應該在契約範本有解決，很快就會公布。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是後續的公布會在網站上用email通知，大家講的每一句話，在場的速錄師會打成逐字稿，不一定要按照大家講的那幾個字，覺得講得不清楚，或者是有一些字眼希望比較緩和一點或者怎麼樣，我們有兩個禮拜的時間可以修改，修改完之後才會公布在網路上，讓下一次巡迴會議的朋友們參考，所以第三個部分比較像臨時動議的時間，也就是按照大家的興趣來進行討論，接下來一直到4點30分為止，我們不特別耽擱時間，我們就用傳麥克風的方式，請大家很快自我介紹一下，您的組織、大名、來這邊主要想要討論的事情，從我左邊開始。" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "唐鳳政委、各位好朋友大家午安，我是屏東縣第一照顧服務勞動合作社的經理，我叫倪榮春，這個合作社專門承辦政府的長照業務，我現在已經創造了112個就業機會，我們的照服員平均月薪是4萬3。" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "我在這邊想要跟大家討論的是碰到兩個難題：" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "第一，我們照顧服務勞動合作社的照顧服務員，每個人都是社員，所以他們要繳股金成為股東，他們又是實際從事勞務工作的，所以他們暨是勞工也是老闆，按照道理講，不應該適用勞動基準法，但是長照中心一直要我們適用勞動基準法，這一點希望在這一個會議能夠有解決。" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "第二，我們跟公司不一樣，公司賺的錢都歸老闆，所以要繳營利事業所得稅，我們賺的錢都是回歸每一個照服員的身上，他們既是勞工也是老闆，政府不應該把我們比照公司行號，然後還要跟我們課營利事業所得稅，這兩個問題，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "李琇絹", "speech": "大家好，我是感恩基金會，我從台北來，我今天想要來這邊是學習，我們是NPO組織，我想是不是有關一些NPO的議題或者是一些社會企業的議題，所以我來這邊學習。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "大家好，我是感恩基金會李雪瑩，感恩基金會是社會福利類型，在很多面向跟不同NPO合作，而非跟個案合作，也因為這樣，我們接觸到非常多的NPO，今天來這邊學習，因為現在很多NPO做社創，遇到很多狀況，所以，我們之前有提一個問題，是有關於學校活化空間，之後會再跟您請教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳俊朗", "speech": "大家好，我是孩子的書屋陳俊朗，其實我好像沒什麼問題，只是昨天來參加了之後，因為看到創新、創生，我們那邊比較多的是創傷怎麼解決，所以其實是來學習，並聽聽看，你要講到創業，可能距離還很遙遠，比較是如何讓他們從泥沼中進入學習，並且回歸到這個社會的挑戰，因此比較重視的是，是不是有比較好的訓練機制能夠幫我們單位解決不少的長期失業、長期領救濟金、身心不健全、觀念混亂的人如何回到社會的這一件事，沒有想到一下子就輪到我，還沒有想清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "隨時想隨時講。" }, { "speaker": "鄭瑋玲", "speech": "大家好，我姓鄭，我來自於國立台東專科學校，我在那邊服務，今天來這邊是因為之前社會創新或者是社會企業這個議題，我一直滿有興趣的，不過之前看是台北或者是高雄兩端的訊息，所以我看到台東有這個座談會，就覺得一定要來瞭解一下現況。" }, { "speaker": "鄭瑋玲", "speech": "雖然我都是在學校服務，但是我希望試圖希望能夠帶學生有機會可以出來，可以跟社區、社會企業結合，我平常也是在服務學習這一塊，希望能夠帶領學生結合他們專業的東西，因此也是來這邊學習與觀摩，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "政委、各位朋友大家好，我是台東縣原住民果菜生產合作社的經理溫溪泉，因為我不是原住民，所以我不能當理事長，也不能當理事主席，但是原住民的問題還是滿多的。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "我們現在有一個口號叫做「青年返鄉」，你必須要有鄉可以回，像我出生在嘉義竹崎，小時候務農，如果我的爸爸有土地，我還是可以回去的，但是你要返鄉，必須要有鄉可以回，所謂的鄉就是那邊有土地才可以。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "台東現在有很多的問題存在在這裡，因為台東有很多土地是公家地，幾年前政府有提出德政，也就是小地主、大佃農，每個人5分地、3分地、10分地，但是耕作面積這麼小，不能有這麼大面積的做法，沒有辦法降低，因此是領休耕的錢，農委會的預算很多都領到那邊去，但是德政是如果回到土地銀行那邊去的話，由那邊分配，政府繳一半、政府出4萬，那個數據就是這樣的方式。但是台東的地是台糖的地跟退輔會台東農場的地，這一些地返鄉是沒有用的，回去那個地並不是你的。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "你租的話是不能長期做，你能種稻子，像種紅藜跟玉米，這個是可以的，但是在人生當中這並不是打底，以後除了除草、施肥等等，採收、加工及我們一直在討論的行銷，這個是一氣呵成的東西，但是土地租到之後，一段時間之後打地從來，為什麼原住民喜歡種稻子，他們並不是喜歡，從山上平地來沒有土地，沒有土地就去租啊！" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "幾年前我去過草嶺，最近一個很夯的東西找不到材料，有一個經典電視購物，我要訂1萬瓶，那邊很多人不用出去工作，是因為祖先有種苦茶子，他阿公時代就種了，但是台東那邊種的稻子可以打底嗎？不可以打底，年輕人返鄉就跑掉了，因為他認為太危險了，他認為有一天都不是他的，像租了房子、三年，地主想要弄這個，你那些裝潢或什麼都沒有，就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "但是民間呢？政府的地應該是可以好好規劃一個政策出來，不准你長期有一個作用，我現在用的地種芭樂茶，臺灣現在做芭樂茶最成功的就是那裡，因為那邊有靈魂人物，那個就是我，我從台北帶了很多錢來，我現在63歲，我50歲的時候有拿到一筆錢，就來弄下去，準備以後給年輕人可以承接，如果以承認的理念來看的話，他說人生3萬天，我跟夥伴講說剩下7,000多天，他們也嚇一天，因為63、83，還有7,000多天你能做什麼事？" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "可以做一些可以傳承的東西，所以我們現在提出問題，我也是這麼建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，您右邊是同一位合作社的朋友嗎？" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "不是，是不是請右邊的朋友可以自我介紹。" }, { "speaker": "林宋博芳", "speech": "我來自台東市，用月桃鞘做的草帽，我是合作社的理事主席，我是有限責任台東縣東海岸原住民社區合作社，我們著重在手工產業的部分。除了手工做的部分，慢慢是量產、量化的部分，用月桃、稻草素材來做生技用品，因為完全著重在手作的部分，食品的東西較欠缺，所以如何把原住民食材的部分轉化為吃的東西，這個是我們現在正在研究的地方，當然我們現在跟生機公司合作或者是跟一些食品產業的合作，簡單說明，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大概多少社員？" }, { "speaker": "林宋博芳", "speech": "18位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有一位朋友是剛才來的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "范逸嫻", "speech": "大家好，我是源天然的逸嫻，我們主要是在台東的池上種植黑米，現在已經有發展到黑米的加工產品，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "長官，我是做薑黃的，臺灣的薑黃是我推的，所以大家都叫我「薑黃伯」，我並不是姓姜，是性陳。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "我做薑黃是從0開始，並不是很好，我是把身體治好之後，才把薑黃推出來，期限要推，後來政府一直輔導我，輔導到一個程度，我做得滿不錯的，政府有一個輔導、計畫跟補助。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "現在一個問題是，你有這個補助、德政，像現在生產到要萃取這個機器，農民的經費、錢及資源總是比較少，但是有一個願景，輔導到一個程度是有一個願景，然後有那個願景要去開發，因此計畫有一定的程度。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "剛好有這個計畫要申請補助，但是補助的是整套的機器，結果車了一部分而已，這個工作就不能做了，這個願景也沒有了，因此就往外面一直講說要做什麼，像將近300萬的機器補助我，機器我申請到210萬，個人補助70萬，所以買零碎的東西，215萬補助我87萬3而已，87萬3並不是補助，而是到29萬1而已，政府輔導農民到這個程度之後是要一整套的，都一點點，也不曉得怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是縣政府農業處的補助案，這個我們有記下來，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "大家好，我是自然食尚股份有限公司，我是李昀蓁，在今年11月11日剛好回來，創業滿五年了。台東是生養我的故鄉、家鄉，所以我回來，這裡是可以發展農業、觀光的地方，因此我挑選了一個我喜歡的東西，我做天然、養生、永續及無添加的養生點心。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我參加政委多次的巡迴座談會，那一天Joy打電話給我的時候，我實在有感而發，因此我要補充，會花大家的時間，但是我希望有更多的討論，我個人沒有太大的問題，但是我覺得台東的發展、整個國家有很多的問題，可以歸納成四點：" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "第一，我們的經濟國策是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "第二，我們的共同式交流平台是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "政委共同參與的平台是很棒，但是其實是單向的，可以用科技的方法變成是雙向的。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "第三，政府的輔導、補助是KPI導向，但是KPI導向是計畫，然後把每一點勾選就沒有問題了，但是結果是什麼？我發現薑黃伯的問題當然也是這個樣子，應該是要結果導向，我想這個在企業治理上應該會朝這個方向走，我也會希望將來是不是可以有一個新的、真的政策的擬訂，又或者是怎麼推動，也就是用結果導向。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "最後一個，既然我們現在有AI的技術，也是政委非常大的專長，在全世界的國際上都是非常有名的，像現在來這邊有幾十個廠商，並不能完全代表台東所有的民意或者是需求，所以如果可以透過AI這樣的技術，能夠廣泛地接受、徵求全民所有的意見或者是需求，因為電腦1秒鐘可以處理1兆、2兆的訊息，人腦很難，這樣的話，其實不會跟民意背離這麼遠。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "其實地方創生、育成中心及邸TaiDang這邊也跟我討論過是不是有提一些案子，不提的原因是我覺得有一點無力感，可能政府主辦的單位並不是這麼瞭解，為什麼這樣提、為什麼會有這樣的想法？而這個想法就是偏鄉只能做這樣的想法，是不是可以提AI到台東來，如果提一個物聯網到台東來，台東根本不需要，並不是不需要，而是台東根本沒有辦法，而且我們整個產業發展還沒有到那個程度可以到物聯網或者是AI，可能還停留在官網、基本的網路行銷上，那個距離是差距很大的，但是以同樣的標準，也就是拿台北、台中、高雄的標準，他們現在已經走到那個程度來，放到台東來認為可以幫助台東，那其實就是緣木求魚的事。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我有很多話要講，但是不浪費大家的時間，我希望以後會有機會，更細緻地去討論，並且善用國家在這方面的優勢，把這個東西變得更合理，然後讓它更有效率。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也謝謝你多次在花蓮場邀我到台東來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我昨天跟今天都是當天來回，台東到台北，比台東到花蓮近，真的有這個感覺。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "政委好、各位台東鄉親大家好，我是台東縣中小企業處的理事長，我是羅永昌，目前協會的成員約過是120位左右，企業的會員大概是在60家，因為我們協會涵蓋整個台東縣中小企業，所以比較多樣性，因此我們各種行業都有，當然台東是以農業與觀光為主要的產業，因此就佔了企業會員當中比較多的比例。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "因為我們知道政委在空總那邊成立一個社會創新實驗中心，我之前也參與了其中，其中其實有很多的題目，這裡面其實結合了各個不同的社會創新企業，他們針對各自的發想去結合彼此的優勢來解決目前社會所面臨的一些問題與挑戰，我相信這樣的理念如果帶來台東的話，其實可以為我們這邊的企業、NPO社團、承辦及其他家扶中心，來做成社會創新實驗。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "透過大家的努力，把拳頭握緊來面臨問題。跟政委討論的是，我們希望能夠活化土地，結合在地的力量、各方面資源來做集合式的二級產業規劃，這樣子會融合出比較多的多樣性，這可能是後續在跟政委、其他鄉親討論，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "劉誥洋", "speech": "政委、各位鄉親及線上的朋友、前輩大家好，我是邸TaiDang，台東駐創的創辦人，我是小洋。邸TaiDang在台東五年，我們在協助不管是返鄉或者是人才東移，如果要回到台東、進入到台東可能會面臨到問題的一系列解決方案，我們有共同空間、居住、創業輔導及即將感謝經濟部SBTR協助，我們在明年的過年前有一個150坪多功能展售空間完成，建構了四種協助青年在地發展的企業服務。" }, { "speaker": "劉誥洋", "speech": "我們也期許自己是專業工作者、中介者的角色，經過這樣的討論或者是剛才幾位前輩點到，其實台東有很多現況，但是台東其實有一些隊伍整理好了，包括台東大學中心，縣政府的採訪團隊，其實已經整理好一些隊伍，一些資源都可以方便對接，還有一些對話的方式。" }, { "speaker": "劉誥洋", "speech": "其實資源要進入到台東，有時候需要一些轉譯、整理，這是滿困難的過程，以上簡單報告。" }, { "speaker": "陳忠文", "speech": "政委、在座夥伴大家好，我是大百吉商號的經理，我本身就是在泰北部落，我本身種植的作物是稻米，在部落裡面我們都可以看到部落裡面的老人家比較多，所以我們在部落裡面就成立了一個產銷班，為何要成立產銷班的原因？是要扶植在地的產業。" }, { "speaker": "陳忠文", "speech": "我們可以看到其實扶植在地產業最大的問題是整合的問題，第一個是老人家的種法跟我們的理念是不一樣的，還有人員的整合及如何整合，因為在地沒有年輕人，因此如何整合是非常重要的，我們除了成立產銷班之外，這個人是老人家，並沒有年輕人，因此在地產業作結合。" }, { "speaker": "陳忠文", "speech": "我們碰到很大的困難，部落裡面其實是一個分裂的狀態，什麼是分裂的狀態？他們的產業是不一樣的，或者是他們的通路是不一樣的，第一班或者是第二班或者是第三班的通路是不一樣的，有可能通路比較好，另外一家的通路比較不好，所以在產業的整合上，大家會互相比較，因此在整合的過程中，希望能夠有一些前輩的指導或者是希望能夠有一些看法、經驗分享給我們，以便我們在部落當中也把經驗傳達出去，以上簡介，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "蕭麗麗", "speech": "大家好，我是做民宿的，我是獨木舟海景山莊的負責人，因為天氣不好，所以我提早兩、三天過來，蘭嶼過來真的很不方便，尤其是東北季風。" }, { "speaker": "蕭麗麗", "speech": "我從外縣市回鄉的年輕子弟，我要邁入第八年，蘭嶼有滿嚴重的問題，等一下再跟大家分享，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳秀如", "speech": "各位夥伴長官們大家好，我是台東縣原愛工廠協會的專案經理，目前專職是在最美麗的火車站的上方，我在那邊當專管。" }, { "speaker": "陳秀如", "speech": "我蹲點在那裡五年了，所以承辦所講的問題，我其實同樣感受，我們的經濟就是金字塔，我們在座的應該都是頂端，但是我蹲點了五年，我想承辦人跟我們一樣，我們都在面對最底端的那一層，我想要跟大家分享並聽到一些意見，其實我們很會抽，可是底下的人跟不上來，其實還是零，不要幻想太多，所以我們在想說是不是有沒有辦法用政府的資源跟我們地方的創新，其實可以變成另外一種地方創新，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "康廷嶽", "speech": "大家好，我是台經院的康廷嶽，我們主要是協助目前行政院這邊做行動巡迴的幕僚單位，事實上過去這幾年也做了滿多社會創新或者是社會企業的相關研究，其實也很歡迎行動巡迴有任何意見或者是想法，都可以反映給我們團隊，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實大部分是見面、換名片、一起吃一點東西，很多討論都是在4點30分以後發生的。" }, { "speaker": "顏五秀", "speech": "政委、各位先進，大家好，剛剛有提到產業輔導室，我是產業輔導辦公室的承辦人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "政委、現場的好朋友及遠在台北的夥伴們，大家好，我是財政及經濟發展處科長，跟我比較熟的夥伴們都會叫我小朱科長，我也很喜歡這樣的講法，所以等一下大家討論有什麼問題都可以隨時cue我。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "財政及經濟發展處其實是全臺灣非常特別的單位，管財政、經濟，一個是收錢、一個是花錢，我所在的單位是產業發展科，也就是協助台中中小企業，如同羅理事長所講的，其實是農業跟觀光為首，所以台東的分類是以這兩個分別。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "我們剛剛五秀有介紹一站式，這個是我們當時在成立這個科的時候，希望協助台東中小企業跟其他部會的資源介接，所以我們一直把一站式視為傳球給台東中小企業得分的那個隊友；我想等一下會討論到一些企業的問題，但是我們都以站在協助輔導中小企業的思維來回答大家的問題，當然今天縣政府是只有我們財經處到，如果無法回應或者是解釋的問題我們會帶回去，會用書面的方式跟政委及各位夥伴回應，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "十四天之內有補充到逐字稿，就算是都有當場處理，這個是有時間的好處。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "各位先進大家好，我是經濟部中小企業處鍾宜珊，我是負責社會創新這個議題的承辦人。中小企業處其實作為政府在推動社會創新，算是一個單一窗口，就像今天的行動巡迴，也許有很多的議題是涉及到跨部會的，可是由中小企業處這邊會幫大家作整理、分案給各部會。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "大家桌上看到的單子是中小企業處有一個新創圓夢網，裡面其實有很多資訊跟資源，比如裡面有一個「社會創新企業登記資料庫」，這個很希望大家一起來參與，我們現在有230家的社會創新企業在裡面進行登記，來登記的好處是什麼？讓大家認識你，知道你在做什麼，有關於社會創新方面的議題、你解決了什麼社會問題。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "第二，中企處這邊其實也有在做輔導或者是資源串聯的一些服務，你如果來加入的話，你其實可以獲得第一手的資訊，我先簡單介紹到這邊，如果之後有再討論的話，我們就繼續再跟大家說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主要是讓大家看到共同的目標，這個目標就是鍾宜珊身上穿的跟我身上穿的SDG當作索引。" }, { "speaker": "陳玫霖", "speech": "政委、各位先進大家好，我是原民會的陳玫霖，我是經發處的副處長，我們都知道花東地區的人口數是佔大部分的，所以不管是產業的發展或者是金融貸款的輔導，甚至一些智慧的議題，是由經發處負責，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊半小時，台北應該不需要到半小時，但是很歡迎告訴我們您的所在機關，怎麼稱呼、從上次到這一次，也就是兩個月的時間有發生什麼新的事情，工商廣告及業配等等，都很歡迎台北的朋友分享給我們，請台北的主持人。" }, { "speaker": "陳梓萍", "speech": "政委、各位現場貴賓大家好，我是台北的分場主持人，我是中小企業處梓萍，現在就來介紹台北現場的長官們。" }, { "speaker": "巫宣毅", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會企劃處巫宣毅，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "張家榮", "speech": "政委好，各位先進好，我是內政部合團司籌備處張家榮，我來業配一下，我們司這邊是在擬一份長達四年的合作事業發展的中長程計畫，希望可以儘快提出報院，希望政委可以幫我們爭取一下預算，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有問題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉子瑄", "speech": "政委好，各位與會先進大家好，我是內政部合作及人民團體司籌備處葉子瑄。" }, { "speaker": "張儒臣", "speech": "政委、各位與會先進大家好，經濟部商業司張儒臣，如果各位有什麼問題跟我們業務有關的話，我們會報告或者回答，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "紀秉宗", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是勞動部勞動力發展署紀秉宗，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "江韋辰", "speech": "政委好、貴賓好，我是文化部文創發展司江韋辰，有關文創方面的話，我今天可以盡力回答大家，如果非業管部分，我也會帶回去給同仁瞭解，並且回覆給大家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "政委好、在場所有的夥伴大家午安，我是財政部賴基福，今天非常高興有這個機會來參加這個會議，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "黃楷茗", "speech": "政委好、各位與會先進大家好，我是財政部賦稅署黃楷茗，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "李啟光", "speech": "今天很高興到這邊跟大家一起分享我們的一些業務，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "白世文", "speech": "政委好、各位與會先進好，我是教育部國民及學前教育署白世文。" }, { "speaker": "呂羿潔", "speech": "政委好、各位先進好，我是教育部青年發展署呂羿潔，很開心今天可以到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "政委好、與會各位先進大家好，我是行政院公共工程委員會企劃處劉慧君，有關於勞動合作社林經理的提問，是否現在回應或者是等一下討論再一起回應？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是可以直接回應，如果簡短回應，像5分鐘之內的話。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "謝謝政委，政府採購法所稱「廠商」，指公司、合夥或獨資之工商行號及其他得提供各機關工程、財物、勞務之自然人、法人、機構或團體。換言之，政府採購法並沒有禁止合作社的參與。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "但是關於合作社是不是可以參與各個招標案件，要視個案招標文件有沒有訂定資格廠商的限制，招標文件中有關廠商資格的訂定，須符合政府採購法第36條、第37條，還有母法授權訂定「投標廠商資格與特殊或巨額採購認定標準」的規定，亦即各機關在招標文件如果要針對廠商資格訂定限制的話，是要依前揭規定來辦理，不可以任意訂定限制，須以確認廠商具備履行契約所必須的能力為限，不得不當限制競爭。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "經查政府電子採購網，合作社有參與機關辦理照服員勞務委外採購案，是有相當多的案例。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "有關工程會針對勞務採購、勞動派遣分別訂定採購契約範本，涉及派駐勞工跟派遣勞工權益，所以，契約範本分別依照勞動部訂定「政府機關(構)運用勞務承攬參考原則」，以及行政院人事行政總處訂定「行政院運用勞動派遣應行注意事項」訂定，以上先作說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "政委好、各位與會先進好，我是退輔會沈素美，剛剛有一位溫經理提問，關於輔導會所屬臺東農場經管位於東部地區土地利用問題，本會農場係依據「本會所屬農場辦理委託經營管理作業規定」辦理委託經營。按現行的規定除103年9月15日以前如果現地已種植長期作物土地，同意農場現況辦理委託經營招標外，不再開放種植長期作物。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "會這樣子規定是因為考量農場經管之國有公用土地，為有效管理及循環運用，農場辦理農作物的委託經營，仍以種植短期農作物為主，以避免契約到期時會有糾紛。種植農作物種類，退輔會是沒有限制一定要種稻子或是什麼作物，以適地適作為原則。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "剛剛溫經理提的香芭樂，臺東農場現有兩件香芭樂委營案了，因委營人107年的第二期沒有繳權利金，農場一直催收，他仍不肯交，農場才依照契約規定終止契約。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "臺東農場經管部分土地，原已種植長期作物的仍繼續經營中，並非農場土地僅種短期作物而已。契約期限部分，例如香芭樂契約，如原招標文件及契約載明後續擴充條款，只要沒有違反契約規定，按時繳交權利金的話，契約期滿得議價續約1次，以上說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常詳細的說明「退輔會所屬農場委託經營辦理規定」，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "莊凱翔", "speech": "政委、大家好，我也是退輔會事業處，莊凱翔。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。我們瞭解退輔會的狀態是昨天才瞭解有這樣的詢問，很感謝退輔會馬上就過來討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們還是有書面提案，所以我們還是先回到書面提案來，我們會儘快把書面提案做一個具體的處理，處理完之後我們再來看剛剛提出來的這一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個部分其實剛才工程會已經稍微有說明，其實在勞動合作社，尤其是做承攬的時候，並沒有一定要適用勞基法的機關才可以來當作政府的廠商，現在的問題是在合約的範本裡面，常常運用了一些文字，好比像一定有雇傭關係的勞工或者是把所謂的駐點勞工定義為適用勞基法雇傭關係法的勞工等等，可能勞基法裡面也沒有的定義，所以那個部會在適用的時候會產生一些疑慮，看到勞動合作社，但是這邊寫要雇傭的勞工，所以不是很確定勞基法是否適用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我們在前面社會創新的聯繫會議已經有進行處理，我稍微唸一下我們11月20日的會議決議，12月5日會公開逐字稿，我只講結論：本來工程會給各部會看的建議文件裡面，有提到好比像需要雇傭員工相關的切結書等等，如果投標廠商是合作社，用社員來履約，這個社員又真正有參與合作社的，並不是像準社員沒有投票權的話，這樣會附一個類似的附註，如果沒有實質雇傭關係的話，就不算切結書的切結範圍，會很有系統去看雇傭這兩個字的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "工程會有很明確的文字，實際上是勞動合作社，你的社員跟你不是雇傭關係的話，不算在這一些切結的範圍裡面，但是同時會增訂即使不是雇傭的關係，也好比應該要意外保險或者是其他相當於勞基法的保護，不要低於基本的保護，文字我想我們會在12月5日的逐字稿出來的時候，也提供給您。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是勞動合作社一定是工作條件低於勞基法，而是要跟勞基法差不多，但是約束他是首約定的做法，是由合作社及合作社主管機關，就是內政部合團司來進行確認，而不是以勞動部勞檢的系統來進行確認，這個是很具體的處理，我想我們等文字完整出來之後，我們再請理事主席幫忙指導，這個很確定是有處理了。剛才工程會的朋友也有講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不知道這個部分合團司有沒有就這個部分在上次之後還有補充的？有沒有從11月29日到今天已經9天了，看一下台北的朋友有沒有要補充的？或者是跟剛剛講的一樣？" }, { "speaker": "陳梓萍", "speech": "台北沒有要補充的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們就來看第二個。第二個可能是比較重要的，建議對合作社的年度結餘款免徵營利事業的所得稅，這個的結餘意思是其實消費合作社不對外營業，所以盈餘免徵所得稅，勞動合作社當然有對外營業，這當然是不爭執的，但是覺得這個事實上用的還是用在社員身上，還是會分配給社員？這兩個好像不一樣，一個是按照股數回社員，一個是按照一人一票的方法決定有點像公基金如何使用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我想要釐清的是，希望不課營所稅的，是大家領回口袋裡分配的，或者是不分配、重新投入的，這可以先釐清一下嗎？" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "我們勞動合作社的結餘款，不叫「盈餘」，「盈餘」是公司。我們的結餘款不管多少，都會回到每一個辛苦付出的勞工身上，所以我覺得政府不應該再對我們課營所稅。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以是分配回來。財政部有書面回覆，您有沒有什麼想法？或者是希望再釐清？如果當公基金不用扣稅，但是分配回去是要扣稅。" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "財政部說這樣子對合作社沒有課營所稅，其他公司也會比照，這樣就會亂了，但是我的意思是公司跟合作社是不一樣的，一般公司除了付必要費用、給員工薪水以後，剩下的錢就是利潤，也就是老闆的，合作社不叫利潤，而是叫結餘款，結餘款不論多少都會回到照服員、勞工的身上，所以不應該跟公司援引比照。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。你們實務上是這樣子拿回來的盈餘，因為現在有一個股利二擇一的課稅新制，理論上自己有一點像類似股東，按照股數分配盈餘，這部分自己個人所得稅應該是比較少的才對，或者是幾乎沒有爭6的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你的意思是在合作社那一端也希望不要爭營所稅，不是只有分配的時候？" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "對。我們的結餘款會返還給照服員，我們會計師每一年年底都會開個人綜合所得稅的扣繳憑單給照服員報稅，因此不可能漏稅，對一個照服員課兩次稅那是不合理的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們是不是請財政部的朋友們跟我們解釋一下後面的想法？" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "政委、倪經理你好，我想我們書面的意見已經寫得很清楚，政委剛剛有稍微解釋了一下，合作社是屬於法人人格的營利事業，目前課稅上是比照公司組織的方式來課徵。" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "剛剛政委也有提到我們從107年年度我們的股利所得新制，如果我們的公司把盈餘給股東，股東用綜合所得稅申報的時候，我們有一個設算扣抵的制度，也就是有繳一些營所稅，就是用設算的時候，扣抵綜合所得稅，這個前提是在營利事業階段有繳營利事業所得稅，但是像倪經理的建議是，我們合作社在營利事業階段不用繳稅，但是分配給社員的盈餘會扣抵，就會跟公司其他股東在扣抵、享受租稅優惠上就會有不公平的狀況，也會損及政府的財政，我作這樣的補充說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該是說全年股利所得大概是94萬以下，對不對？差不多就可以扣抵掉？" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等於一個月7萬8，這個是建立在這一筆錢其實已經在營所稅徵過了？" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "一般社員的股利所得並沒有很多，一般是採設算扣抵的方式來報繳個人綜合所得稅，所以像倪榮春的建議，合作社階段如果不用繳營利事業所得稅的話，應該是沒有稅額可以扣抵，但是現行的綜合所得稅是可以扣抵的，產生與其他公司組織的營利事業不公平的現象。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以就會變成假設沒有營所稅的話，等於是很難回過頭來適用個人的可抵減稅，也就是要在個人所得稅繳掉。" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "前提是已經有繳過營利事業所得稅，所以公司把盈餘分配給股東，給綜合所得稅的時候，就用8.5％扣抵個人綜合所得稅的應納稅額，像針對勞動合作社如准予不用繳營利事業所得稅，未來勞動合作社將盈餘給社員報繳個人綜合所得稅，如享受扣抵，其實是比較不公平的，其實也有一點像吸收政府的稅收去補貼社員的疑慮，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "同樣的，即使目前這個情況是消費合作社，也是建立在其實沒有對外營利的情況下，所以本來就沒有營業所得可以扣？" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "對，因為消費合作社比較特別，我們在書面意見裡面也有特別提到，因為消費合作社原則上不對外營業，屬性像社員集體購買貨物，用比較低的價格銷售給社員。" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "現行的勞動合作社，其實某種程度對外承攬所謂勞務，至於承攬的型態每一個勞動合作社的做法不太一樣，這其中也會涉及營業稅課稅疑慮，之前勞動合作社也有提出這樣的建議，這個部分我們已經積極研議各種所謂勞動合作社可能適用或者是實際勞動承攬的狀況，然後來適用不同的課稅方式，由於今天倪經理是針對營利事業所得稅部分想比照現行消費合作社免稅的規定，因此這個部分比較沒有疑義。" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "我再強調一下，消費合作社真的比較特殊，是只針對不對外經營的消費合作社，如果今天消費合作社是有對外經營的話，也不適用免稅的規定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以不是看「合作社」，在新合作社法通過之後，也就是2015年版本，其實名字掛什麼合作社，除了做信用金融，都可以多角化經營，一旦多角化經營，即使名字叫「消費合作社」，營所稅還是跑不掉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是財政部的意見，有沒有什麼想要補充或者是再詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "倪榮春", "speech": "股利二擇一的新制，我回去再瞭解看看，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。看其他的朋友們或者是台北的朋友們有沒有要補充的？如果沒有的話，我們就往下走。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第4頁，主要是資源運用效益最大化，也看到少子化許多校園空間閒置，明年9月新課綱上路之後，新課綱就活化空間了，把高中選修制度就會變很多班級，這樣就有很多國中小的校園需要活化，這個部分教育部有書面的說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得感恩社會福利有沒有看過書面？有沒有看到任何補充的？我們直接進入討論。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "謝謝教育部的回應。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "從這裡的回應可以瞭解到是用原則的方式來辦理，也就是從地制法，下放到地方，中央跟地方是以原則的用途，上網去看，的確也是把現在有活化的一些案例說出來。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "想要實際請教，因為我們接觸到滿多的NPO團體，在空間的使用上有很多的困難，像公家機關空間或者是學校的空間滿多，但是上網看了以後，還是不知道怎麼合作。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "我舉一個例子，像今天我們想要跟某一個縣市、某一個學校合作，請問有沒有相關的方式、流程，或者登入方式？因為一個學校可以被使用的範圍非常的廣，並不是只有社福單位，有些是設置需求，幼兒園、實驗教育機構、運動中心、或者是社福或者是觀光，這個縣市是不是有一個平台、學校是不是可以有一個平台，讓人家登入？這個學校是兩年一次或者是三年一次要做這樣的盤點，因此可以釋放出怎麼樣的空間，歡迎大家用這個來提計畫，幾月幾日開放而登入。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "一個單位需要的時候，到底應該怎麼做，還是沒有辦法理解，不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個很棒。問一下縣府是不是有接觸這個業務？" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "跟政委及各位夥伴報告一下，我們財經處也是主掌公有財產管理業務，並不是在我的管理範圍內，但是我們科是隸屬招商這一塊對於財產活化這部份是略有涉獵，在台東縣政府我們有一個公有財產活化的小組，我們會定期追蹤哪一些公有財產是閒置的，我們就會做監督、管考或公開的部分，甚至是進到招商的程序，這個是我們縣市政府目前所看到運作的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "不曉得其他縣市是不是有類似或者是相關的機構在運作，不過我想公有財產管理單位對於公產活化的這一件事，應該是有相關的管考機制，我想或許可以嘗試問問看這個方向，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想問一下，台東縣立各級學校，校園空間活化要點是教育處的要點，你們小組是跨局處嗎？或者你們只管招商的部分？" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "所有的財產管理會分為公用跟非公用，我們單位是公有財產管理的主管機關，所以公用跟非公用財產都會有一定的管理，例如教育處所管的空間(學校)是原自於教育目的，因此只限於教育使用，而且這樣的建築物也是必須要符合這個教育目的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我看這個原則裡面有不少重疊，當然有教育目的，又可以可以作藝文展演、青年創業籌備空間、非營利組織的辦公場所等等，跟你們的好像已經有兩成重疊。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "這個是教育部所訂的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以在執行的時候……因為這邊具體的反映是每一所學校不曉得有哪一些地方，希望找什麼性質的夥伴，我聽起來是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這個部分是，範圍是教育處往教育部那邊填報放在網路上拍照片給教育部，或者是你們這邊有什麼網站或者是平台可以看？你知道我的意思嗎？是縣府這邊有一個什麼機制？" }, { "speaker": "陳秀如", "speech": "我有實際的例子，因為88風災的關係，所以很多社會企業有捐錢，那時一窩蜂想要解決原住民當時這一些災民的問題，所以那時的大溪國小，也就是現在的用地釋出來，縣府也有專案來核發用地，但是三年之後開始，因為那個實在太漂亮，所以有地方的意見或什麼的，我們一開始在繳租金，到去年也公開招標。" }, { "speaker": "陳秀如", "speech": "其實我發現一件事，滿繁複的一個過程，也很感謝大溪國小跟教育處的協助，因為等於增加學校的一個業務，為了我們這個標案換了兩個總務主任，他們也不熟悉，一個是漂亮的地方，所以一定會有很多人想要爭取經營權，其實也造成他們的困擾，校長也很困擾，校長常常跑來問我該怎麼辦，怎麼會搞成這樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳秀如", "speech": "我提供我的建議是，比如有教育功能，如果失去教育意義，對我們部落也會有不太好的方式，但是教育處那邊有專案小組專門管理台東地區的閒置教室會比較好，就不要再製造學校老師的困擾跟校長室的困擾，比較不會有地方那些問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "我想回應政委剛剛問的問題，在縣府哪一個地方可以看到這樣公開的資訊，我想前提是要問這個是不是必要公開的資訊？所以在我們內部，是可以要求機關之間的協調，個案是不一定要公開，透過這樣的方式來做。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "但是是否符合政策及目的上的需求，這個是個案判定的原則，這個簡單回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此這樣聽起來有公開要求其實是在教育部，但是有協調實質的，其實很多是個案，但是這邊也提到一個具體的建議，希望有一個比較專業的，有一點像輔導諮詢的角色，不管是放在教育處或者是哪裡，總之就是儘量讓學校的行政人員、總務人員可以不要覺得難以下筆、無所適從或者是位置不保等等的情況，就是盡可能減少學校的行政負擔，不然媒合會變成學校會付出額外行政成本的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "台北的朋友或者是教育部的朋友有沒有什麼建議或者是什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "李啟光", "speech": "先談目前一般對閒置空間的管理，等一下看教育部國教署在實際執行的部分有沒有要補充。" }, { "speaker": "李啟光", "speech": "目前公家機關閒置空間給民眾使用的議題，其實好幾年以來，媒體一直披露所謂的蚊子館，行政院有列管與追蹤，我們也定期去參加財政部或者是行政院工程會相關會議，以工程會來講，列管國內有九十幾個閒置空間。但我有一個感覺是，這個資訊是不是夠開放、充分被揭露？" }, { "speaker": "李啟光", "speech": "這一些政府機關的公產閒置，如果自己沒有辦法活化，其實可以提供出去給民間運用，機關是供給端，需求端是各位，但是在供需之間好像沒有整合或媒合的平台，因此會造成資訊有一些落差，是不是該有個主管機關來做這件事。" }, { "speaker": "李啟光", "speech": "以學校目前來講，如果有閒置空間，目前還是朝向以教育使用為優先，例如，教育單位被賦予的任務，像幼兒園或銀髮族的樂齡學習中心，或者是跟社區結合的社會福利、民眾活動中心，可能是優先提供的選項。至於這些空間的使用，應該跟地方需求緊密結合，因此可能在地方政府，需要有這樣的媒合平台或功能，公開、轉介給民間團體。" }, { "speaker": "李啟光", "speech": "這裡有前幾天的新聞稿：國有財產法第34條的條文修正，對於機關經管不動產有低度利用、不經濟使用，或用途廢止、閒置已久影響國產使用效能者，財政部可通知管理機關限期提出活化的運用或計畫，必要時可以交由財政部國有財產署接管。所以，政府是有工具的，統一把國內機關閒置設施，將它接收再提供其他單位使用，這樣的機制如果充分運作，將來或許就是一個媒合平台，轉介提供給需用的單位，我想這樣的資訊如果可整合、開放，加上主管機關強力執行，將來需要空間使用的團體更能獲得政府資源的提供。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是8天前才公布的第34條修正條文，本來各自管各自的，我們可以看到非常多不同的活化網，這邊是寫「廢止閒置低度利用或不經濟使用的國有公用財產」，財政部有這個權力把它逕行收回，等於是統一列管。看國教署的朋友有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "白世文", "speech": "各位先進好，有關於活化再生資源網的部分，已公告待活化校舍之地方政府窗口或代管學校聯絡電話，未來將再針對使用現況做更清楚的說明及擴充照片欄位，以利了解相關的資訊。" }, { "speaker": "白世文", "speech": "另外，未來將持續輔以專家諮詢機制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過專家機制，朋友想要問的是，你們會有一組專家，然後照顧全臺灣的需求，或者是在全臺灣各個縣市找專家，然後建立類似聯絡簿的東西，知道我的意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "白世文", "speech": "各縣市如果有需求的話，可以跟專案小組提出諮詢的提案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。所以專案小組還是在署裡面，並不是分散在每一個現實的教育處理，我聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "白世文", "speech": "督導的角色來作協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子應該還算清楚，這個是兩個部分，看這邊有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "不好意思，可能還需要再請教一下，不管是剛剛所講的國有財產，或是現在特別focus的學校部分，這都是公用財，公用財是公共所用，剛剛舉例是講學校，先進夥伴回答是說教育用，也沒有問題，因為有很多NPO或社區社福，我們非常清楚NPO也是服務這個社會，事實上，在這個場地的部分的確有很多的限制、影響他們的服務。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "我們也知道學校現在場域釋出來的越來越多，加上未來少子化更快，因此，我們非常在意的一件事，資訊的公開透明，包括申請，像剛剛提到的，學校釋出空間的申請方式，也沒有辦法講得很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "再者，申請的流程、方式俟乎要私底下運作，這樣子來講，好像不是那麼符合我們在處理公共財的原則，因為地方公用活化空間，如果要用得好，是需要清楚的流程與申請。" }, { "speaker": "李雪瑩", "speech": "是不是可以將地方有這樣空間、可以讓人家使用的資訊，公開、透明，什麼時候可以提計畫書，對不對？當然如果單位不提、也不符合規格，又不適合，那也ok，假設有100個單位來提，學校就可以在這100個中間選擇，並不是這100個單位，每一個單位淤底下運作，我們是不是可以利用IT的科技，然後再加上民主的公開透明，把這一件事簡化，不要變複雜。因此申請的空間、時間及撰寫的相關文件，是不是有可能訂定這樣的機制？謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我稍微先回應一下，這邊講的是不一定限於學校了，是以學校作舉例，是任何公用空間的活化，是不是可以透過比較像有節奏的，像幾月就要提出相似的一些案子，而這一些案子也許有一些審議的標準，但是這一些標準當然到最後還是機關可以自己去訂，但是至少大家都會事先知道，而不是好像有些人三個月以前知道、有些人兩個月以前知道，有些人什麼都不知道的情況，主要還是比較在透明，不是參與的部分是多麼大眾參與，畢竟有能力投的沒有那麼多家，但是至少起跑線是一致的，這個是主要的訴求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每一個縣市有每個縣市作業的習慣，有一些縣市確實是已經有像您剛剛所講的這一種，包含是在自己架了活化網，這一種縣市也是有的，還有這一種公共參與，或者是公展的公共參與，包含都市計畫的公共參與，這個都是有的，這個還是要回歸到每一個縣市作業的習慣，我不知道台東縣這邊有沒有類似這樣子的，也就是在某一個時間點讓大家知道這一件事未來可能大家都有機會的慣例？" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "跟政委報告，剛剛那一位夥伴提到所謂的公開、透明的時間，我想回應剛剛部裡面長官有提到的，也就是把這樣的公共閒置空間公開，這其實對於想要使用的人有一個目標。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "至於想要競爭的人，想就回到這個空間的公開程序，因為在公有的空間或者是土地釋出的時候，就會依照相關的法規來做公開的這一件事，所以我會認為是不是要把這整件事全部綁在一起，讓各個縣市訂定一定的規則，我建議是不是有一點保留。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個本來就是權限。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "在台東的狀況來講的話，像我們本身處理過舊市場活化，像我們現在是合作社經營，其實也是空間上的需求，知道是需求跟閒置剛好match在一起，剛剛提到這個是市場用地，所以只能做市場使用，因此限定來投標的那一些人只能做這個目的，我處理到的個案是這樣子，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為工程會之前也有碰過類似的詢問，我們之前在社創聯繫會議、巡迴的時候，工程會往往會說有一個「閒置公共設施通報及公告平台」，這個比較像全部的，並不是校園，而是所有人，基本上會有一個民眾通報、會有政府機關列管，然後還有目前列管中案件的辦理情形，還有每一個機關在哪裡、案號是什麼、聯繫誰等等的，這個沒有什麼作用，而是非常大的表格，也就是工程會知道、現在變成可以用的土地或者是空間，你打電話給誰，就可以知道目前的現況，但是並沒有像您剛剛所說這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有申請要點的話，會提出要點，但是基本上是讓每一個機關分別填，有的填得比較詳細、有的沒有那麼詳細，因此想要詢問工程會的是，這一個部分工程會還有想再做什麼嗎？或者是更進一步地問在國有財產法最近的三讀通過之後，這個跟國有財產法裡面，財政部的關係或者是關聯是什麼？不曉得這是不是工程會的朋友業管或者是別的單位的？想要先確認一下。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "剛剛政委提到的平台是「閒置公共設施通報及公告平台」，如政委所提到我們有列管並要求機關活化，實際上是沒有做任何的媒合處理。各機關如果是在委託營運，這一種比較屬於收入型的，比較不是採購法裡面的採購範疇，所以並不是政府採購案件，他們有時會參考政府採購法的一些程序來徵求，可能程序上有一些是適用到政府採購法，但是實際上並不是政府採購法的案子，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，其實並沒有法定義務可以遵照那個程序，而那個程序大家都已經很熟悉了，就是預告公告一次、兩次審核等等，但是不按照這個程序的時候，我們目前不能拿他怎麼樣，因為並不是真的把這個空間處分掉，並不是購買一個勞務，而是某種好像夥伴關係的狀態，因此講說有相當多運用採購法的精神，但是並沒有一個法定要按照這個採購法來做這一件事，我聽到是像這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該是說我們未來有兩個方向，剛才有聽到，如果是教育空間的話，這個是比較明確的，也就是從國教署的角度，他們會有一個從中央的輔導諮詢督導專家人才資料庫，這個是如書面所載，聽起來並不是讓每一個縣市分別建置，而是統一建置，儘量讓每一個縣市有同樣的能力，像總務主任這樣的角色，培力他們做這樣的對接與活化，至少拍照片上傳到國教署網站的時候，比較看得懂這個空間在做什麼，這個是輔導用校園活化的資源，這個是教育目的的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外是一般性公用財產的部分，工程會是管考，並沒有做媒合，財政部全部收回來之後，會有一些媒合的角色，這一個部分因為財政部今天來的，應該賦稅相關的同仁，不曉得能不能麻煩帶回部裡，看有沒有可能國有財產法處理完之後有沒有新措施或者是方法，是不是可以附在逐字稿裡面回應給朋友。" }, { "speaker": "賴基福", "speech": "我們會把東西帶回去，再請國產署提供意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是對話的開始，隨時歡迎繼續聯絡，現在發言都是有名、姓的，而且都已經聯絡過的，因為也會有逐字稿，我們接續討論的時候，是可以回到這個點來討論，並不用全部回到那個點來討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果這樣處理的話，我們是不是先往下，有關於二級產業的概念，這個是羅理事長剛剛有提到的，我聽起來的意思是，二級產業希望有一個比較全面、讓所有需要二級加工的都可以使用的版圖，聽起來是這樣子，這個要回到縣府的一站式去？因為現在是中央、地方對接，因為中央的相關部會都在台北，是不是可以讓我們比較明確瞭解到所謂的二級產業，也就是中央部會可以給予協助，這個是羅理事長這邊的想法，縣府這邊有沒有什麼比較具體想要知道的事，或者是要提案人先講？都可以。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "政委、台北的長官，跟大家再詳細說明一下，其實現場的業者，像薑黃伯提到，補助款的部分即使有訂單，也沒有辦法處理，還有後續晚到的另外一個業者，也就是台東當地非常知名的扮手禮業者，他的臺灣主流超市通路，也締造了很好的表現。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "問題是他的加工場所、場地，這裡都有一些基礎，但是我們在於物流場所、加工場地來講的話，我們要申請場地，即使我們針對國際的訂單或者是國內通路的訂單要做驗場或者是一些支持審定時，我們有這樣的場所可以協助我們達到這個目的。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "就很像舉一個例子，薑黃伯接了一個日本的訂單，日本的客戶要跟我們下訂了，我們要有一個合法支持的條件，還有日本的客戶會到台東來驗廠，我們在台東當地可能就有這樣的場所，可以讓我們的薑黃伯解決他的問題，這個是一個部分的表現。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "第二，因為業者很多，就像剛剛提到像中小企業，有建築業、廣告業或者是設計產業，昨天也有提到特殊製品，有一位是有很多maker的東西，他需要包材的東西，這個需要社會創新的場域，這個是屬於第二級的加工產業，大概是這個部分。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "因為之前有提案過給縣府，因為當時承辦是鍾科長，再由鍾科長來做後續詳細的內容，這部分我還沒有看到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前看到的是g0v投票指南剛剛選的老縣長的政見裡面有提到，輔導成立「社會企業型態」綜合食品加工場，其實我並不是很確定後面的構想，但是因為提到社會企業型態，好像有一點我的事情，所以我滿想知道所謂社會企業型態的綜合食品加工場，這邊聽起來是集合式的二級加工，聽起來是八成重疊的，是不是有初步的想法可以讓我們知道？" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "跟政委報告，即將上任的饒縣長還沒有到任，所以過往所規劃的食品加工園區還沒有機會跟他當面報告，而接下來所談到的是過往財經處所辦理過的事情。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "如同一開始跟政委報告，一站式產業輔導辦公室一方面是協助業者解決問題，一方面是協助政府擬訂政策解決企業的問題。台東大多是農業為主，因為農業支持的狀況之下，造成二級產業效益不彰，因此主要的加工產品都到外縣市去加工，而現是政府又大力推六級產業，因此每個農民都很厲害，所以三級做得很好，但當政府一直支持農民往前走，不管是往國際或者是往外的時候，其實回頭發現只有二級加工廠能夠協助農民調整屬於我們自己特質的產品。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "去年我們對中小企業處有一個園區的計畫，那是我們聽到部份業者的心聲，經一一拜訪過之後，擬訂利用現有的工業區來劃設所謂食品加工廠區協助台東縣業者進駐經營增加，而這個加工園區的概念其實會將現在教育部支持的計畫是一個延伸(計畫名稱為：東部生物經濟六級產業4.0計畫)，希望未來由東大培育的是產業人才，讓未來的是實習學生能直接投入食品加工園區發揮。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "如果縣政府要完成食品加工園區這一件事的時候，大概會有幾個客觀上的條件與限制，第一也就是縣政府願意提供土地且經過議會同意來讓廠商作一定的使用；第二，園區要做到什麼程度？當時的園區型的計畫，包含周邊地景的規劃將近4.4公頃，中央最後核定將近6,000萬的金額，我想當時的中小企業處非常支持我們，但是礙於核定補助經費比例是1公頃計算其補助上限1500萬元，最終只能補助將近6千萬元，但是實際上縣府扣掉土地成本的話，總計的開發經費要2點多億。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "前瞻計畫，我想造福了很多縣市的基礎建設完善，但是造成的一個問題是很多工程單位在短時間無法負荷這樣的工程，包含縣府建設單位亦是如此，因此經評估過在預算及執行無法如期完成的情況之下，我們將這個案子先停下來。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "經濟部中小企業處很支持也照顧台東偏遠的地區，我想理事長不放棄這樣的idea，但這一件事如果縣長上任之後有在施政策略中，我們有機會會對新任縣長報告可能執行的方法；但假設真的有機會的話，個人有一點小建議可行方式，因為花蓮跟台東有一個「花東永續發展條例」，也就是花東基金，如果中央政府 (經濟部中小企業處) 能夠支持我們計畫送到行政院國發會進行討論，爭取花東基金挹注園區計畫。" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "但最後我必須要再提醒，這部分意見是否符合新任縣長的施政目的與方向，這個我們會在縣長就職後報告確認，在此之後行政機關就會執行應該要做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "提案人要不要補充？" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "社會創新的部分，剛剛前面有介紹到，我們希望在地中小企業的力量、能量，業者都是每一個行業的翹楚，他知道市場、客戶及如何發展的方向，我們如何結合？也就是要結合在地的社團，像NPO組織或者是弱勢團體，你要跟他們合作，怎麼合作？可能有人才的培育，又或者是弱勢家庭，像我自己招募的員工，本身是單親媽媽，剛辦好離婚，三個小孩子，母親又剛好出車禍、住院，一個人要負擔四口的家庭生活，其實很難滿足他的生活所需，我們也很希望能夠有更多的社會意義來幫助這一些人群。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "我們自己的規模沒有成長到那個程度，也許有些企業是可以的，透過這樣二級解決在地業者的問題之外，能夠有多的能量去結合社團，包含有一些設計人才或者是工廠操作員，又或者是對農業這個部分有很大的想像，可以在這個場域可以獲得未來夢想的實現，這個是我們對他的期待，但是所有的事都有基礎，從基礎逐步往上提升。" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "因此當時跟即將上任的饒縣長在談理念的時候有分享這個部分，有幫業者的問題聽進去了，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我確認一下，本來有要做農特產精品加值園區計畫，應該是在這個名字，是在巨大廢棄物回收再利用中心的原址，這是之前有發生失火的那一個場址嗎？中興路四段的場址嗎？那個還有在運用，或者是另做他用？" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "發生火災是巨大資源場旁邊堆放的木頭區。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以本身還是在使用？就是由環保署管理？" }, { "speaker": "朱育賢", "speech": "依照當時的園區規劃，目前既有的建築物會做一些調整，原本是展示使用，但是還是維持原目的使用，因此這一個部分，當時已經有請示過環保局、徵詢過相關的意見，是ok的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從環保局的角度來看多目的利用是沒有問題的，這個比較理解，請說。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "大家好，我是虹廷，青澤是我開的。我不是質疑中央，我那天有去拜訪台東的豐樂工業區去尋找工業用土地。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "歡迎質疑，沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "那時候提出來的地價我有一點傻眼，也就是8,000多萬台幣，這個對我們中小企業是完全沒有辦法負荷的，我非常希望中央或者是縣府串接起來引加工廠，可以幫助到更多人，像魯哇，昨天你們看到的，就是在一級產業這邊努力的。像上上個禮拜，我拜訪了一個小農，他賣高麗菜的，我幫他賣了1,200顆高麗菜，他一顆高麗菜只賣台幣不到50元，他說：「沒有辦法，現在菜價的問題」，我希望這一些加工廠可以真正幫助到農民，並不是讓他們的東西滯銷。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "我沒有要質疑任何人，他說收購方——我不想說是誰——他說1台斤11元，他說真的不想給收購方收，他說心很痛，他賣1,200顆，他拿了6萬多元，真的是很開心，問他後面有多少，他說是60公頃的菜，我問他怎麼辦，他說如果賣不出去就報廢了，因此如果有加工廠的話，是不是可以結合到一級、二級，或者是落實到六級，我相信可以幫助到更多人，我希望這個是共融的地方。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "在地的小企業真的沒有辦法花到8,000萬，買300坪的地，這個是沒有意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個需求是沒有任何人反對，如果沒有在地的二級，那一級乘以三級還是三級，不會變成六級（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "還有一個問題，台東現階段，在二級加工場還沒有出來的期間，因為有前店後場，才有辦法販售，那個是法規的問題。我在今年11月6日有看到農委會提出來的，反正是一個小型的農業加工，他們可以拿到合法的工廠登記，我覺得這一塊是滿照顧小農的，他們可以拿到另類的合法工廠登記，但是這一些中小企業商沒有辦法拿到真正的合法工廠登記，這個是很讓我匪夷所思。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "另外一方面是覺得心很痛，因為中小企業在這一種發展階段，我們要拿到真正的合法工廠登記，我們要花非常多的錢，舉凡地、設備及人力的問題，光是設備我也不瞞大家說，我已經負債1,000萬了，銀行聯徵都調得出來，甚至到前幾天都花了300萬去還錢，前幾天還跟我老婆說我們到底為了什麼，我們永遠都是在貸款、買設備，全部都是錢坑。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "所以，我是說如果合法工廠登記證，像小農都可以有另類的合法工廠登記證，這一些前店後場的場家或者是小商家、小企業，因為在台東的小企業佔得非常多，是不是也可以給我們一些照顧，這個是我提出來的一些淺見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為都有逐字紀錄，這邊講的是農產品初級加工場的事情，「場」指的是一級，本身是自然人，本身是要做一級加工使用的農業設施，並沒有到真的、大工廠的程度，但是目前這個還是在預告的情況。" }, { "speaker": "陳虹廷", "speech": "對，還是在預告的部分，是不是其他中小企業也可以提出相關的配套的措施，因為我們畢竟是比較小的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有聽懂，真的有聽懂。當然這個是農委會會經濟部的案子，我是剛剛才看到，不過看起來他們研擬了好一陣子了，這個我覺得是滿有意思的，他們不說會增加20億產值；今天農委會有在台北嗎？有農委會的朋友嗎？不知道是不是知道這一個案子的期程或者是有什麼可以跟我們分享的部分？" }, { "speaker": "巫宣毅", "speech": "報告政委，基本上企劃處這邊針對這個案子，並沒有這麼熟悉，基本上很簡單的概念講一下，針對乾燥、粉碎、碾製等等很初級的加工，這邊有做開放加工式的，讓小農可以做加工，之後連結到之後的上市或者是其他的用途。政委這邊的時程，我記得要也要到明年才可以公告，容許我們會後再瞭解一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們看吉仲講的是一方面要到12月底把母法讓負責的政委看，這個是一個；第二個還是在他的執行，就像您所說的，就像在地特別本來就在做二級，或者是想要做二級有一些競合的話，並不是我們所樂見的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，大家對於食安等等也會有各種的想法，因此以我的理解是，在明年第一季、第二季農委會會在各地辦座談會來聽大家的意見，其實像這一種母法，本來不准做的，現在都可以做，不會講別的，是說以細則、辦法定之，其實細則、辦法要怎麼寫是靠大家的意見寫出來的，現在並沒有錯過那一班車的問題，現在還沒有開，在月台上，因此內裝是不是可以慢慢討論出來？本來沒有軌道，現在多掛一節上去，現在還在裝潢，因此不用擔心錯過什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個部分，縣府的案子聽起來是要等新縣長重新討論過之後才比較知道這個政見跟本來的規劃要怎麼對接，我們中央才會接到這個訊息，因此聽起來是車廂還在運過來的路上，因此這一個案子只能先這樣子了，但是很高興有這樣子討論的脈絡，讓大家有一個預告，不會覺得好像措手不及，但是下一次回來討論的時候一定會再往前一點，就回到這個脈絡裡面繼續討論，我覺得這個對大家都是滿不錯的討論起點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們往下，接下來二至五的補充提問，這個是自然食尚的朋友，有一個是明顯問我的，我就直接回答一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這邊提問單特別有講到瑞士每一年投五次公投或者是做了通訊投票系統、通訊投票系統，我們確實也很坦誠跟大家報告，我們最近密集在討論這一件事，在行政院的層級，其實今天院會後記者會，院長也責成中選會對於還沒有到通訊投票的電子投票要一個月之內提出規劃案，這個特別指對公投的部分，對人的部分還會有差千分之三正在驗票——據說現在有一個正在驗票——公投比較沒有這個問題，所以如果要導入什麼系統就從公投來導入，中選會正在研擬，一個月之內會有初步的想法出來，如果需要數位技術協助的話，這個是我們辦公室可以協助的，因此這個就不需要台北的朋友回答了（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於，臺灣國策的經濟發展，這邊指的應該不是「5＋2」產業創新跟社會創新，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我真是有感而發，因為我回來台東是從事觀光的產業，台東的人少，所以人要進來，大家談的是目前碰到的問題，需要趕快解決緊急問題，我們常常解決緊急的問題，所以沒有想根本的問題。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "因此之前打電話給我的時候，問我國家經濟政策的國策是什麼，這個是大哉問，我們國民要問這一個問題，要靠少數人解決2,300萬人的問題，可能不太夠，我們希望有一個全民共治的機制在，好比能源政策吵半天、土地政策吵半天、經濟政策吵半天，各自有立場去吵，都變成是政治議題，並沒有變成是國家的問題，如果是這樣的話，我們想辦法，因為現在民治已開，每個人都有很好的想法，每個人每天要追，像公司還line我什麼時候回去，因為我們要每一天追著銀子跑，但是現在銀子在哪裡卻不知道，不掉到臺灣來了。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "如果是這樣的話，我們有科技，我們自詡臺灣在科技上是前面的，不管是創造，軟、硬體都是，我們就建立雙向的溝通平台，任何人不一定是老闆，而是升斗小民，可以把想法提出來，過去要靠人力，2,300萬人每一天要提一個問題，電腦是可以的，你要去分析。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "像我們在FB上面用機器人抓，可能那個會導風向，可能當時的立場、氛圍有這樣的做法、想法，但是回到生活上的時候，也許想法是不一樣的，當他發生問題的時候是可以提出來，但這只是第一步。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "第二步是什麼？當政府要提出政策的時候，一堆的學者專家或者是產業的先進或者是哪一些特定的人為了要有效率，所以是找一小群人來討論，覺得這個方式不錯就下去做了，殊不知是錯的，因為這些人都有各自的立場。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "如果是這樣的話，我們是不是可以你政策形成的時候，能夠讓大家來討論？又或者是更進一步，不是或者，而是一定要，要告訴大家說現在要做這一件事，要火力發電、風力發電或者是什麼發電，可能要十年有成，B案可能五年有成，C案是十五年有成，A案是承擔、代價是什麼，大家共同來決定這個代價要不要負，這樣的代價大家才會有意義，這個代價是要付出什麼、犧牲什麼，但是長遠而言我是ok的，這個才有可能成員國策，而不是討論，然後就變成每個人都是專家，真的是用有感而發。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "目前都是可以用AI的訊息去做，最後有一些比較實質的議題，讓大家可以同時解決，像我們這樣的討論是很棒的，我們可以解決現在目前面臨的狀況，因為我的肚子已經快要餓死了，要趕快解決，而且我們不能止渴，而且我們真的浪費太多時間去討論意識的問題，我們真的要花時間討論實質的問題。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "而且我們也要讓所有的國民知道，我深深感覺，像我過去在中華電信也是，提一個案子，總經理馬上問你：「一年有沒有辦法成效，如果有的話，我給你100萬試試看，一個3億的案子，先給你100萬，三個月做給我看看。」一年要成效，3億的案子要賺10億，你叫我一年要有成效，可是這已經是大家的習慣了，對政府也是一樣，因為一任四年，所以三年要有成效，因此所有的案子都是三年，KPI達到就ok了，結果當然是不滿意的。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我沒有什麼政治立場，我真的是有感而發，我真的講到第四次了，希望能夠用開放的立場，剛剛很不好意思，鍾科長你真的非常努力，但是有一些我非常贊同，有些是可以公開、有些不能公開，我不曉得有沒有誤解的意思，但是我覺得臺灣人民是可以看得清楚，而且也希望看清楚，就像我們現在做的東西一樣，不管做任何的東西，要求你什麼東西都要講清楚，你的食材來源都很清楚，我們的產品是這樣子，為何政府不行？應該要很清楚，不能只講有利的，或者是只講好的、不可能的事情，因此永遠可能是藍綠立場大家選邊站。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們會議開始到現在，是第一次聽到藍、綠。這個會議並沒有任何意識形態。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我沒有任何立場，是有感而發，而是臺灣只能二選一。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但我既沒有黨籍、也沒有黨職。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我也沒有黨籍，但是真的是有感而發。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "重點是我們的國策訂出來，希望是全民共識訂出來，這樣子全民才會知道如何共同承擔，也知道未來要花三年、五年、十年，不是告訴我一個報告或者是白皮書，應該要承擔什麼或者是配合什麼。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "第二，雙向的共同溝通平台是可以靠AI來做的，你可以分析、蒐集這一些資料，讓大家看到什麼是真正的民意，所以也不用去處理假消息，不只是在政治上或者是國策上，甚至是連食安的問題都是，什麼是有幫助、什麼是沒有幫助的，我也在FB上寫的文章都是這一些，並不是只有這個功能，其他的代價是什麼，大家會接受、覺得你是一個專業的，因此我們需要的是專業的國家領導者，就像國家需要專業的領導者需要長期永續發展下去，就是這四件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想先澄清一下，剛剛這邊講依法不一定要公開，那個講的是政府資訊公開法，並不是公務人員的解釋，那個是法有明定，按照政府資訊公開法，各國都是一樣的，在擬稿階段，也就是還在發想的時候，確實是以不公開為原則，發想完了，就是車子要開走，那個是以公開為原則，這個是政府資訊公開法非常明白去寫的，這個確實造成一個問題，大家是到火車站，院長才看得到，大家一定搶著踩剎車、油門之類的，這個時候就會產生一些困擾。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們辦公室一直做的是擬稿階段公開，政府資訊公開法也賦予對公共利益有必要的時候，擬稿階段也可以公開，也就是得公開之，我自己的立場是，我看到的一切公開都有必要，這個是我們實驗性質的做法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是確實目前這並不是習慣，而且尤其是在長遠的政策上，這還不是公務人員的習慣，所以不好意思可以投影一下我的螢幕嗎？這個是能源局跟民間的一些朋友一起做的，叫做「能源轉型白皮書」，這個是比較接近單一政策的多年期各方面意見彙整，他們經過了非常多的各種公民會議，每一次在哪裡、誰講了哪一句話、列入哪一個部分的意見流向等等，這個都有非常完整的分析分流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個東西我們目前也碰到一個很誠實講的困難，大家的實質參與率並不是非常高，雖然能源是重大政策，但是就像跟大家講切身相關的急迫性並不一定那麼強，所以來參加的可能是長期在關心這一件事的朋友，那個也沒有什麼不好，但是一切的政策都是互相關聯的，因此能源這邊希望能夠增加基礎的韌性、永續能源的部分，但是又跟經濟這邊，好比像創新產品、服務模式、穩定生產要素供給等這個是連動的，這個跟大家講說要身心健康、安定退休、終身學習又是連動的，又跟醫療照護環境等是連動的，這個是國內的，全球的地緣平衡、政治等等，這個又是另外一回事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們針對這五個STEPR，都有你剛剛講長程規劃的會議，但是如何變得讓大家都可以參與或者是不用花特別的心思都可以參與，這個是全世界都是很大的研究問題，我們如何讓民主的這一件事變成大家都參與。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你剛剛提到很好的點，我覺得是可以帶回去的，不如把這個願景放到下一代去，也就是2050年或者是2040年多，也就是現在講2019年要做什麼，大家都要看起來互相爭奪的情況，因為資源在2019年有限，但是確實聯合國永續發展目標，我們講2030年或者是2050年願景等等，這個是比較遠程，是比較多的想法進來，也比較不會有意識形態的問題，所以我這個真的會帶回去討論，希望在明年可能第一季節的時候，可以以2030年或者是2050年為長程，綜合剛剛所講各方面、各構面的一起讓大家參與。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前的經驗是每一個構面都很棒，但是加在一起，每一個構面跟大家的生活都有一點距離，加起來很難綜合成一個願景，這個是目前實際操作上碰到的困難，並不是沒有試著往這個方向做。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "我還要提醒一點，我原來生活在台北，現在生活在台東，我能夠理解在地人的想法了，也就是比較草根的想法，過去在台北很好的生活，每一天光鮮亮麗，也就是天龍人的生活跟型態。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "也就是開始做，您剛剛提到，也就是我前面說的、沒有補充到，這一件事可能要他成功，可能需要五年的時間、十年的問題，並不是五年、十年後開始做，現在可能沒有最好的方法，但是沒有關係，要讓人民知道我們現在打算這樣做，但是現在正在實驗，是不是可以有一點耐心，是不是為這個國家找到一些方法，讓我們共同討論一個方法，這個方法也許很蠢，沒有關係，我們需要一個完美的計畫才執行，可能緩不濟急，再來是等到環評計畫做完，那個時候換不一樣的場景了，環境、條件完全不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，這個完全同意。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "所以政委加油。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家有空還是到「Join」平台，目前已經有500萬人用了，確實還是有可以增強的部分，不會一切都完美，我們隨時會把它加強。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "最後還有一點時間補充，政府其實可以多花一點行銷預算來行銷臺灣自己的產品，大家都會知道臺灣人對自己的產品是不具信心的，寧願去買國外的東西，我們的東西明明沒有比人家差，雖然很多條件現象是要認證、有機等等都有非常多的困難，但是我們還是很努力地把東西做得很棒。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "全臺灣每一個產業，各個產品、服務都很棒，但是等到大家要選擇的時候，會想要選擇外面的東西，比如要選擇日本的產品或者是選擇韓國的產品，還有很多是低價選擇的中國產品，他們的產品都在進步，我們也都承認，我們真的是需要更加地花力氣，讓臺灣人去買臺灣人自己的產品，政府其實沒有做這一件事，會看到我行銷台北多好、建築很棒，空拍的影像非常地棒，高雄、台東哪裡都是，我想產品是更深入，這個之外應該更深入，台東是一個很棒的地方，我們連續兩年被全世界好的平台認為是值得來台東玩的地方，如果你旅遊的話，這個是很棒的條件。" }, { "speaker": "李昀蓁", "speech": "臺灣也是，所以真的是希望編預算去行銷臺灣，不只是對外行銷臺灣，我們自己的內須，我們把錢留在臺灣，讓大家把錢花在臺灣，而且是很愉快，這樣才可以互相拉抬，一方面是扶持臺灣的生計，臺灣的人民要消費臺灣的產品。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我昨天有聽台東好物協會有說本來是縣府的計畫，現在變成是台東好物協會來參與規劃，如果我沒有記錯的話，就是把台東這邊的印象對內行銷，也就是您剛剛所講的，我覺得這個是很值得參考的，至少對我是滿有吸引力的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "昨天講了很多，像數位台東人等等，有很多對內行銷的這一件事，其實我上次來台東的時候，其實跟芙彤園的朋友有討論，我也覺得行銷台東在臺灣裡面比行銷臺灣在臺灣裡面來得容易一些，主要是因為有特色的，這個跟別的是不一樣，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第六點是剛剛提到薑黃素，其實這個有一點像，但是第二個薑黃伯提到的是有機加工廠，用地跟剛剛講的，也就是普通的一級做初步加工，也就是農委會的那個，中間有相關聯的？" }, { "speaker": "羅永昌", "speech": "都可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不一定是要叫做有機加工廠，只要是初級的就可以，只要符合驗證就可以，需求可以說一下？" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "是現在有規劃才有去做動線，我本身是有機公司的理監事，我以前有當過，因此我瞭解，「有機」跟「自然」是兩回事，「有機」要認證。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "我是說補助的部分，也就是政府的德政，有輔導、計畫與補助，把農民一直往上拉，像我本身有薑黃素萃取的技術，我自己有副產品，也是要薑黃素加工當成我們的原料，因為外面的原料品質不敢肯定，因此我自己要做的原料，自己要生產，薑黃都是自己生產，從生產到加工都是自己的，因此希望自己萃取薑黃素，但是這個機器滿貴的，而政府有這一個補助案子，所以我們有去申請補助，我們知道也應該要去拿，不然錢就回饋到國庫，這真的是政府的德政。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "我有一個朋友在縣府那邊，以前申請那麼多，你們不來申請，我不曉得要給誰，因此就去申請，現在農委會那邊有說限額多少，但是我也不曉得，我提出的計畫是整套的，濃縮、乾燥，要一整套的才可以做出來，是限制多少錢，然後就給我補助，補助那部分錢的1/3而已，因此我不曉得怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "一個小農到一個階段，我們有一個願景，然後要再往上的時候，這個資金是有限的，因此沒有補助這些，我不曉得該怎麼做，因此我希望以後政府補助這一方面，分成整套機器的補助或者是割草機，都要把它列出來，然後再規劃，農民希望再一直往上，你可以審核一下，然後再往上繼續跑。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。一開始要講得比較清楚，一開始前端就要講得比較清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很謝謝羅理事長幫忙澄清，因為我剛剛聽起來正面編列是乾燥、粉碎、碾製、培草，這一些是在農產品初級加工廠有特別寫出來可以做，但是萃取一下子沒有寫在裡面，但是剛才羅理事長提醒我再回去看，如果有取得產銷履歷加工驗證或者是有機加工驗證，好像就不限於那四個正面表列，聽起來是萃取的意思，如果是有機加工驗證的話。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "我的程序都是有機認證的，上次在有機協會開會的時候，他們還有問有哪一些東西，也就是萃取這一些機器，說有列入。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，看起來是有列入，但是施行細則上，農委會座談到這邊的時候，當然還可以去講，大方向聽起來是不錯，這個是有機的部分，至於沒有全額補助，聽起來是一整套，但是發現是前面機具的部分，可能是前端說明不夠清楚，我聽起來是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "農委會有限制，以後不能申請這麼多了，我有那個需求，希望政委不要限制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解，或者是如果有限制，一開始要講清楚，這個我大概瞭解，不曉得縣府有沒有要回應的？看起來還好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "台北的朋友有要補充或者是回應的部分？" }, { "speaker": "陳添麒", "speech": "如果補助的額度比較大的方法也可以。" }, { "speaker": "巫宣毅", "speech": "以這個案子是台東縣政府花東補助計畫是有支應，台東縣政府因為這邊好像沒有來，所以是不是可以會後再補充看看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個具體來講，是之後會有書面回覆，但是對於通案的，也就是未來花東基金運用的方法或者是原則，我們也會請農業處這邊寫回應的時候也可以帶到這個部分，也就是原則有沒有需要檢討或者是修改。" }, { "speaker": "Slido 留言", "speech": "退輔會公用土地既然無法管理農民種植內容，且擔心未來有政策目的使用，何不退撥回國產署，開放民間申請使用？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "退輔會的部分，我剛剛聽起來短期，好像是四年或者是五年都可以，除非種的是長期作物，不然就是短期，半年不到一年就採收的短期作物，所以可以翻三、四次，如果是現有的長期作物就可以一直繼續照顧下去，我聽起來是這樣子，退輔會剛剛也是這樣說。看您有沒有補充？" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "剛剛退輔會的長官有說明，但是我剛剛提的意思有兩個：" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "第一，退輔會的地可以很充分、有效率地運用，但是限制在半年就收或者是一年就收，沒有辦法讓年輕人返鄉打底，比如種植下去之後，如果履約承諾都有做好的話，是可以議價、續約的，不然就產生一個問題，如果是長期約的話，現在內規、法規上，四年之後要重標，那就會有一個現象，也就是會有土地的蟑螂，若你標下來，土地上面有農作物，當要標下來，那就要商量，你給我20萬、30萬，你給我這一些東西就還給你，這個是有機可趁的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "第二，年輕人有土地，也就是短期的做法，如果沒有辦法達到最有效率的效率，對國家、個人都不好，這個是社會一般的需求。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "另外，剛剛各位長官有提到目前鄉巴農地有履約未繳的事，這也是我們的困難點，那麼多年前是以原住民優先標的規定，其實是合作社集資去做這一件事，但是日子久了，退輔會也有另外租土地，他們之間有一些財務上的糾紛在，這個問題是我合作社個人的問題，他回到代表人（理事主席）出了問題。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "我在這邊請求，我之前也有跟退輔會在台東的長官有提這一件事，是不是可以商討，他說不是名義的人，因此沒有資格講話，我們也就不能講，我的意思是，我們合作社去澄清我們跟私人事實上的關係，不足的履約保證金，我們這邊社員會把它補足，這樣政府也可以把錢收回去。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "另外，如果這一些事沒有處理好的話，這一些人是受害者，受害者取得個案商討的機會。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "現場來的幾位，像薑黃伯是我的大哥，我們很關心台東青年人返鄉做事的想法，我們算是最認真的一群人。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "台東這個地方所需要的一些法規限制，若有機會的話，可以有更寬鬆的方式、利用，然後再檢討更有效率的方法出來，如果更有效率來做短期的做法，是否是最恰當，有商討的空間嗎？沒有，從以前到現在，上面的長官說方便與管理，但是卻沒有辦法真的有效益幫助到人民，這個是很可惜的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "退輔會的長官是否有機會讓合作社的人員去瞭解問題所在，該補多少履約保證金，這一件事該如何處理，權益怎麼樣？欠國家的錢還是要補足會比較好，這樣對整個全體國民，像大家買單的觀念（植入），如果可以的話，請在台東的窗口讓我們去商討。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "我今天是代表團體，合作社的團體跟財務上的事，合作社這邊要如何補足才可以挽救這一件事？若可能的話，那就給這一個窗口，我的意思是這樣子，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為您提的是一個個案、通案的部分，個案的部分，之前確實也有過像國產署、退輔會之類的，我們通常處理的方式是，我們現在先有逐字稿，我們十四天之內，退輔會這邊會商量出有某一個窗口，但是我不保證他會在台東，說不定會在台北，可以用電話、電子郵件或者是視訊等等的方式去進行個案上的follow up，這個是一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過您剛剛提到通案，像2005年訂的委託經營作業管理規定，過了十三年有沒有機會做檢討，也就是短期作物的部分，我想事實上是2014年、2015年，2016年修了兩次，2017年也有修過，這個是活的規定，不斷滾動修訂，並不是當年訂了就一直用到今天，是按照需求有在修訂，並不是不能改。尤其像您所說的，這個是內規，是發了一個函就可以改的東西，並不是完全不能改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，他們在管理上有一些想法，這個想法跟您的想法不一定完全相同，而是隨時這個契約完成之後，年輕人回流是非常重要的，有長期保證等等，但是有可能是契約完成之後想要拿去做別的運用，除非是育苗，如果真的長下去的話，會覺得在活化上受到一些限制，因為大家看到樹都長，不會想要把樹破壞掉，聽起來這兩個是有不同的想法，我覺得這個是可以討論，並不是不能討論。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "謝謝政委再給我一點時間，長期做跟短期做有很大的差別，要做一個修正是內部討論修正或者是給民眾參與修正，這個是很大的差距，事實上這個部分有很大的問題存在，像我的所在地是台東大學，我們看到很多農作物種下去是不會賺錢的，為何會有人標？因為有財團來標，臺灣以前有一個慣例，如果有一天政府的土地要釋出時，承租人是優先，這個是這樣的慣例，因此這些人就把地先佔著，每一年幾乎花很多的租金，虧錢也不管，各位可以去大學路那邊看一下。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "因此如果財團大有力量的人要來阻擋這一些事的時候，小農根本沒有機會去標，退輔會所有的地、問題都存在這一個地方，這個地方也不曉得是跟誰講，退輔會是屬於行政院的管轄單位，是不是要找立委去講？如果覺得這個是個案，有什麼好講的，這個問題就永遠沒有解決。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "我們現在存在的問題是：有一天想要成為既得利益的這一些人在那邊操作，農民是沒有辦法抵抗的。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "我向退輔會的長官報告一件事，為何那邊的地很多人租了之後，種了一年，第二年、第三年就解約了，等於沒有辦法做，因為是競標的狀況，財團在這邊標的時候，是要養那個機會，所以投入很大的錢在那個地方，是划得來，只要有朝一日，政府的土地要釋放出去，也就是公告地價釋出，但是市價一坪好幾萬，他們是在找這一種機會。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "關於這一種狀況沒有打破的話，農民是沒有機會的，像一分地以臺灣來講，一甲地是5萬元來標，那就差不多成本最高了，但是現在標到7萬多、8萬，為什麼7、8萬可以標呢？把後面的資金投入進來，多少年之後賺幾億就夠了，是這樣子，這個是很可怕的問題。因此現在年輕人回到台東，如果沒有打破的話，因為他們家的爸爸、媽媽有土地，不然年輕人很澎湃的鬥志會馬上沒有，尤其台東是非常可憐的地方。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "十三年前我五十歲到台東來，我為何會這麼深入？我在嘉義出生，我在嘉義務農，我16歲到台北讀書，所從事的企業，獲利了結之後有社會責任，因此就到這裡來，剛剛也提到農業生物科技，一個口號是將來對於疾病的排除並不是靠藥物，而是靠植物的元素，我們接受這個理念跑到這裡來，如果要講的話，有好幾個主軸可以講，藥草的故鄉在台東，這一句話並不是講假的。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "尤其我剛剛所報告的這一點，如果防止一些企業有計畫的，先來租不賺錢沒有關係，我要養這個機會，政委才有機會在行政院講到話，是不是把這個觀念上達？如果不給這一些機會是會打消念頭的，這一些小農才會取得這個機會，以比較平順的價格來取得土地資源，年輕人才會有機會，我們這個年紀的人其實不用工作，我的小孩都算有成就。" }, { "speaker": "溫溪泉", "speech": "為何講到這裡？這一輩子總是要留下一個讓人懷念的事，像郝柏村弄到一個水庫、道路，因果論的功果。因此我們想說如果在臺灣改革的過程中有參與一份責任，我的想法是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝，講得非常好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "2014年的時候我就有看到類似的新聞，已經有立委詢問退輔會，他講的倒不是財團來搶標，而是財團找人頭來搶標，不過我想意思是一樣的，因為不會大大寫是財團的名字，不知道哪裡一個人願意用高價的方式來做，十四年也四年多了，陸續也看到一些相關的報導，我想這個並不是個案，這個是陸續每一個都是個案，但是加起來確實像你講的情況，這個也可能跟剛剛講的延伸植物不一樣的事情，如果一開始都拿不到，也沒有什麼延伸植物可以種。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不曉得退輔會的朋友們在這一陣子有沒有處理過類似的情況，或者是有沒有建立一些想法或者是一些做法？" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "退輔會在以往案例，因原種植長期作物的果農，契約到期之後不願意交回土地，或要求存留農作物給予補償，就地上物的部分一直有紛爭。本會遂於103年間邀集各農場實際作業同仁，歷經多次研商，才定調。103年9月15日之前，現地已經種植長期作物，同意按現況辦理招標，至於現種植短期作物土地，則仍維持種植現況。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "至於經理剛剛提到的，大財團標農場土地情形。本會於104年1月間委任重新檢討修正辦理委託經營招標文件及契約書範本，招標作業程序則參照政府採購法規定，辦理公開招標。投標資格以有意願從事農作生產之個人、法人、機構或團體均可參加投標。農場就標區劃分依地形、農水路等實際利用需要規劃。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "我剛剛提到臺東現地有一個個案，在履約的過程中違反契約規定，沒有按時繳交權利金，經理剛剛提到該案例是你們合作社，實質是合作社經營，名義是找人頭來標，這種情形是違反契約不得轉租規定，這類案件希望可以走回正軌。民眾如果有與農場辦理委託經營意願，歡迎個人、團體或者是法人機構前來投標，這一點請經理諒解。" }, { "speaker": "沈素美", "speech": "至於您提到一些細節的問題，可就近洽臺東農場知本分場或到池上場本部，農場隨時歡迎您，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝。快速綜整一下，個案的部分看起來有聯絡窗口了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "地上物的部分剛剛提到不只是土地返還的時候，我們切結書一起還給你，這樣聽起來也不足夠，事實上目的是希望是一個完整、乾淨的土地。不然，如果樹都長在那邊了，未來利用也都要順著這些樹來規劃。從我的角度來看也是一種型態，但是從你們的角度來看，你們會希望是四加四，最多五加五，十年之後就要很乾淨、清空的狀態，這是對土地相當不同的想像。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也沒有覺得好像每個地方都一定要是這個想像，你也有提到2014年以前已經有延伸的話，難道在附近不能有相補的長期林相嗎？但我想這個都回到個案商討，我同意你們如果上面沒有多延伸作物的話，你們的想法或目的是希望五年或者是最多十年，就等於把它reset一次，這個是退輔會對於土地很明確的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也想提醒的是，即使在這一個空間裡面，從六個月就可以收的，到十年可能只長一、兩次，其實植物在這當中有非常多不同的光譜。並不是只有六個月收、和六年才收，這中間有很多不同的情況。所以中間用「短期作物」訂的是不是太短了一點，這個也是可以討論的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我同意您剛剛講的，以四年或者是五加五為期的時間軸想法，這個是大方向，同意貴會的見解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得，這個空間裡面還是有更多可以做的，這個是事後可以follow up的事，聯絡的窗口再麻煩給我們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子聽起來，溫經理想要研議的是附帶條款，也就是讓一些農作物的種類，在不要違背四或五或者是四加四的情況下，是不是適度鬆綁？我聽起來並沒有完全無法調和，不過這個沒有關係，這個可以事後follow up。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "書面提案就這樣子，我們時間已經超過七分鐘了，很不好意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我看大家在自我介紹的時候想討論的事，大概多多少少都有碰到一些。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有碰到的一項是創傷後處遇、回返社會機制的部分，這個部分今天沒有時間討論到，非常不好意思，主要的原因是相關的部會沒有約來台北。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果我們事先知道要討論這個的話，我們會把相關的，包含社家署、教育部裡面相關的，又或者是法務部也有做多元處遇的朋友們都會遇到，只要事前就先讓我們瞭解到要討論這個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我下次不會把「花東」的行程併在一起規劃了。如果要談台東的話，就會飛過來台東。也很感謝台北的朋友們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天因為時間的關係，今天先到這邊，非常感謝大家的參與。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "大家好，我是唐鳳政委辦公室幕僚賴致翔，很高興今天大家來參與序號41的協作會議，會議時間從10點半開始一直到下午3點半，我們會花很多時間一直在凝聚這個案子的共識，一起來討論大家對於這個案子有什麼不同的看法。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "首先我會跟各位介紹會議環境、整個紀錄的流程，以及後續會發生什麼樣的事。各位看到在場有攝影機，如果各位有收到會議資料的話，都知道今天的會議會公開直播，所以除了在場所有的朋友之外網路上參與連署的五千位朋友，都可以看到今天會議的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第二，今天在場有速錄師，會把各位的發言全程記錄下來，記錄下來之後，我們會給各位十個工作天的時間編修自己發言的內容，主要的原因是大家拿著麥克風講話的時候有一點緊張或者是講話有一點不順，為了讓未來所有的網友可以很順利地閱讀今天會議發生什麼事，所以我們會建議大家在會後把自己說的話，稍微修得順一點。值得注意的是，不要修改到別人的，因為修改系統是我們辦公室自己寫的，如果不小心修改到別人文字的話，就麻煩跟我們說，我們會幫忙回覆。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "另外，各位看到在會場上有一個網址，各位手機如果可以上網的話，可以先搜尋，如果來不及做也沒有關係，主持人也會引導，我們有一個網址是sli.do，搜尋之後這個網站會要求我們打今天會議室的代碼，就是今天日期是20181130，輸入之後就會看到上面的頁面。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "為什麼要這樣做？最主要的原因是今天有直播，所有的網友可以透過這個網址在上面留言、表達他們的意見，在場開會的朋友們剛好有意見要表達，但是麥克風不在你的手上，我們也可以透過匿名留言的方式來表達你的意見，這個是有關於今天的會議紀錄、網路留言的部分，不曉得各位有沒有任何的問題？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我進一步說明接下來的會議流程會交給行政院外聘的專案顧問張小姐來協助做議題釐清，原則上她是中立，不會偏向任何一邊，不會偏向民間或者是官方，這個都不會。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天開完會之後，會有一個分組的討論活動，討論活動結束之後會請兩位各自推派代表來報告，報告完之後，唐鳳也在線上，會觀看整場協作會議的流程，觀看之後會把兩個代表報告的內容會儘量原封不動帶到行政院內，在下個禮拜的政務會議中，會跟行政院長或者是督導這個業務的政務委員報告，開了一場跟民間一起創意發想的會議，大家的建議是這樣，請行政院、交通部及相關的同仁一起來參考看看提出來的建議到底行政院後續怎麼做，以上是有關於會議的流程、紀錄方式及會後可能會發生的狀況，不曉得各位朋友還有沒有任何的建議或者是想法？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就把麥克風交給主持團隊張小姐。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "各位早安，歡迎大家來到今天第四十一次協作會議，主題是汽機車燃料稅改隨油徵收，在進入議程的介紹……聲音可以嗎？謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來在進入議程介紹之前，我們會先讓與會者自我介紹，今天參與的同仁們有來自不同的單位及背景，所以我們接下來其實也會有互動交叉式的討論，可以在討論之前讓各位瞭解今天的參與者有哪一些人是非常重要的，所以接下來會傳麥克風，請各位只要簡短地介紹就可以了，說明您的姓名、匿稱，接著您的單位，以及與議題的關聯，也就是今天這一場會議是用什麼角色來作發言，並跟各位一起協作，麻煩簡短幫我說這三件事，這三件事也列在投影幕上面，我會傳麥克風下去。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "各位協作人大家好，我叫Anna，服務於和泰汽車，跟這個議題的關聯性主要是車主在購車的時候，通常會考量到保有成本，此議題跟產業相關性滿高的。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "各位會議的人大家好，我是Jacky 王，我的工作本身是車輛修護的相關行業，對於這一種用油的部分，其實也會影響到自己本身的用油量系統。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "各位大家好，我是蔡至兼，我目前是擔任CARLINK的顧問，我也是算是自由業者。我長期關注在法規的部分，包含隨油徵收、TW-NCAP及牌照稅，因為總是有一些種種不合理的東西。我也代表絕大部分的民眾，如果等一下有機會可以發言的話，請大家多多指教，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "大家好，我是謝騰輝，我是東森財經台夢想街57號執行製作人及CARLINK總經理，我是從事汽車媒體相關產業，所以對於汽燃費這一件事，是否要改為隨油徵收，其實在汽車媒體界探討相當久，我相信這一個問題必須要有很好的討論及正確的解決方案，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "郭又誠", "speech": "各位好，我是郭又誠，單位是一般民間公司的工程師而已，我只是一個普通的汽機車上班族，我有汽車、機車，所以對於這一件事，我覺得有必要關注，所以就過來了，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "大家好，我是楊家豪，我主要是在一般的零售業工作，我的角色是屬於議題的網路上附議者，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "朱大慶", "speech": "大家好，我叫朱大慶，我在交通部服務，我的單位跟今天汽車燃料使用費的徵收制度議題有關，也很感謝主辦單位這一次能夠舉辦這樣的會議，能夠來聆聽大家的意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王基洲", "speech": "大家好，我姓王，我叫王基洲，目前服務於交通部，主要是議題汽車燃料費相關的工作決策者，很高興有機會來這邊聽各位的意見，讓我們的決策能夠更周延一點，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "大家好，我是張朝能，目前服務於交通部運輸研究所，交通部運輸研究所有針對汽燃費的議題在研究，所以我等一下也會跟大家簡單報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王銘德", "speech": "大家好，我是王銘德，我服務於公路總局，公路總局的角色是汽燃費相關徵收作業的執行單位，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "何梅錦", "speech": "大家好，我是何梅錦，目前服務於公路總局，公路總局是交通部委任的汽燃費代徵機關，我是負責汽燃費業務，以上謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "洪尉淳", "speech": "大家好，我是洪尉淳，對於這一個案子委辦的研究團隊，有機會的話，希望可以今天分享我們研究的內容與意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "鍾慧諭", "speech": "大家好，我是鍾慧諭，我是逢甲大學智慧運輸與創新中心的副主任，我本身在中經院研究團隊，也就是汽車燃料使用費隨里程徵收的研究。" }, { "speaker": "溫蓓章", "speech": "大家好，我是溫蓓章，服務於中華經濟研究院，我們是運研所汽燃費相關研究的執行團隊，以上。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "大家好，我叫蔡秀芬，服務於經濟部能源局石油及瓦斯組，主要是油品市場的管理，對於國內使用穩定供應這一個部分，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "丁建仁", "speech": "大好，我是丁建仁，我服務於經濟部能源局，這一項議題有牽涉到石油產業的部分，所以我們也一起跟大家參與討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "洪宏毅", "speech": "大家好，我叫洪宏毅，服務於農委會農糧署，我們負責的業務是農機業務，因為農機是免繳汽機燃料費的範圍，如果以後汽燃費隨油徵收的話，針對農機的部分如何排除適用，這可能是我們比較關心的部分，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "大家早安，本人林建良是中華民國遊覽車及小客車全國聯合會的理事長，這個有關於隨油徵收的議題，跟整個運輸業，像遊覽車、小客車的成本提升息息相關，我們今天來參加，在此表達意見，請政府機關能夠傾聽，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "許志綸", "speech": "大家好，我是遊覽車協會的秘書，敝姓許，今天主要是來協助遊覽車業者，替他們發聲，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "胡邵鈞", "speech": "大家好，我叫胡邵鈞，服務於農委會漁業署，我負責漁船用油業務，跟今天會議的關係，可以分享漁船用油現況免稅的做法。" }, { "speaker": "邱宜賢", "speech": "大家好，我叫邱宜賢，我服務於農委會漁業署，今天這個議題的關聯，是在於今天可以提供說明漁船用油在核配機制的管理上，可以提供漁業署於此機制之一些做法，希望提供給大家參考，讓他們提出討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李明機", "speech": "大家好，我叫「明機」，我來自財政部賦稅署，主要是負責消費稅的議題，大家對於稅跟費間的關聯性及區別，如果有疑義的話，賦稅署的同仁可以跟各位解釋，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "謝富琪", "speech": "大家早，我是謝富琪，我服務的單位也是財政部賦稅署，我們跟這一個議題的關聯性可能相對比較低一些，但是就如剛剛明機所說的，可能民眾對於稅與費容易產生混淆，如果今天剛好有涉及到這樣的議題，我可以協助輔助說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "詹弘炎", "speech": "大家好，我服務於創業公司，叫詹弘炎，因為會隨油徵收會直接衝擊加油站的業務，所以今天來參加這個會議，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳慶鴻", "speech": "大家好，我叫陳慶鴻，目前任職於台塑石化公司，汽燃稅如果改成隨油徵收之後，對我們公司比較大的關聯性在於如何去代繳這一筆費用，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張昆弘", "speech": "大家好，我是陳慶鴻的同事，我姓張，也是台塑石化公司的同仁，今天來瞭解一下隨油徵收（部分），因為我們是供應商，要知道到時如何配合施行或者有什麼問題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "大家早安，我叫做李式嘉，目前是臺灣遊覽車觀光協會的人員，今天來參與這一個會議，因為我們產業事實上耗油對我們的支出是一大項，因此特別過來關注。" }, { "speaker": "許欽智", "speech": "大家早，我叫許欽智，目前的單位是雲林縣加油站商業公會的理事長，我這一次來參與，是代表全國聯合會所有的會員來與會，因為我們加油站跟這一次的議題，我們是第一線面對民眾，因此我們還是代表我們的會來表達一些探討。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "大家好，我叫顏呈照，我今天代表加油站全國聯合會的身分來表達我們加油站全國2,200站，我們跟這一個議題負責的關聯是，我們處於金流收入的位置，這個產品雖然跟我們息息相關，但是我們主要負責這個費用的收取，因此我們的會員非常關注這一個議題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳明玄", "speech": "大家好，我叫陳明玄，我今天代表客運全國聯合會來參加，當然徵收方式的改變會影響客運業者成本部分，以上。" }, { "speaker": "葉慧君", "speech": "大家好，我叫葉慧君，服務於臺灣中油公司，也是由公有業者的角度好好跟大家一起討論這個議題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "各位早，我是中華民國全國駕駛員職業總工會秘書長黃淑惠，今天來是為了會員相關的議題，我們的會員當中有包括計程車、大貨車、聯結車、遊覽車等司機，假如今天有一個定案，或者是政策確定要隨油徵收的話，計程車目前是免徵，那麼要做如何做相關的措施？" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "分兩塊，這裡有一個是目前要繳汽燃稅的大貨車、聯結車及遊覽車的司機朋友，另外一個是免徵的計程車司機朋友，以上。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家都自我介紹完畢，我們要做一個簡單的自我介紹，完成來賓的自介，接下來的流程我會一邊說明為何會這樣子安排。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "10分鐘會跟各位說明今天協作會議的流程、工具及目的，會幫助大家去瞭解我們接下來的開會模式怎麼樣進行。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來會有主辦部會簡報、附議人或利害關係人簡報，剛剛大家在自我介紹的時候，運研所有說有一些資料會跟大家說明，所以我們也會放在附議人、利害關係人簡報，若到時要跟大家說明的話，也可以放在這個部分。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "在此之前會有一個主辦部會的簡報，也就是交通部的簡報，因此主辦部會簡報、附議人及利害關係人的簡報，這樣的安排是在進行討論之前，先讓大家有多元資訊的對齊，在大家資訊平衡的狀態下，可以進行接下來的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "資訊平衡完畢之後，我們會有時間讓每個人發言，確認事實及釐清爭點，針對前兩個部分提出來的資訊，如果有問題的話，我們可以隨時在這個階段跟大家對焦，對焦完畢之後，就代表我們的資訊不僅是已經瞭解了，也確認自己的理解跟大家的資訊是有平衡的，我們接下來會先讓大家進行用餐。用餐完畢之後在充足理解資訊及對焦之下，會分成兩組協作，等一下分組的方式，會在等一下的簡報說明。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "分組的說明會要產出作為後續政策研議參考的方案，因此今天大家是早上先處理資訊的平衡，下午會處理可行的方案。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們接下來處理完畢之後，兩組會交叉地報告，說明一下這一組討論的時候有產出哪一些具體的方案，可以作下一步政策研議後續的探討，因此會有分享總結與意見交流的時間，每一組都會有10分鐘，大概是這樣的安排。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我接下來跟各位介紹一下今天的流程與工具。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天大家會在這邊的目的是一起「協作」，產出問題解決的共識，蒐集意見的方式是……" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "「確認事實及釐清爭點」是不是要釐清今天要討論的議題？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "是。我們等一下會讓大家都有機會發言，我們會利用數位白板，各位在發言的時候，我們會一邊把大家的重點show出來，因此可以直接做事實的確認，可以讓每一個人說話的一些重點，我們會即時處理。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "做這一件事的方式是，如果有很多人講一樣的意見，我們就會記在一張重點的紙上，但是如果有兩個人有兩個不同的意見，我們就會記在兩張紙，所以這個意思是我們會收的是多元意見，並不是這個意見的聲量多大，因為我們重視的是這個意見的多元性，我們希望探討一個議題的時候，不是侷限在某些人的框架，我們今天有這麼多不同的利害關係人來參與，我們希望每一個人、每一個背景及聲音都可以多元呈現，不會重聲量大小，而是重意見的多元性，因此會採這樣意見的紀錄方式，這個是即時的，因此大家有問題就可以馬上確認。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天會分成三個部分，如果把剛剛的議程分成簡單的三個部分，其實就是我們要盤點問題，然後要歸納、定義問題，接下來是討論可能的方案。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "後續我們都會產出完整的紀錄，後續的這一些政策研議會回歸部會處理。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天參與會希望大家是雙向溝通，聽別人說、也可以說自己的想法。也希望大家帶著不同的想法前來與帶著共識回去，剛剛已經有請各位自我介紹，大家可以瞭解到我們邀請各位這一些方式以及這一些標準，就是希望可以容納跟這個議題有關的多元性，因此我們可以儘量盤點各個相關的人，都邀請進來今天的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們邀請完大家之後，其實很重要的是，這一些人如何在流程裡面去進行討論，看是在哪一個階段，因此看一下一般政策流程的制定是政策制定好、接著是流程跟著跑、系統接著規劃、後續維護這個系統、制定法規，所以最後法規制定完畢之後，使用者或者是公民會知道原來現在政府已經有要推這樣的法規或者是政策，但是如果在這時更多人知道這一件事並反映時，前面都已經規劃差不多，要修改的話其實會相對比較困難，因此會因為這樣子要重新跑流程很困難的前提之下，就變成有一些事會停滯。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "為了避免這樣的情況，把各位有不同背景、與這一個議題有不同角度切入的人，要進入帶政策前期討論，希望讓大家在新政策的流程中可以充分表達意見，並且有效率收攏這個意見，針對這個意見去產出相對應的服務、政策或法規。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們才會處理系統、政策的檢核、法規爭執的制定，最後是維護，到意見回饋的時候，並不會有些意見沒有辦法收，因為前面已經花很多時間，而是先把大家的意見納入，所以在意見回饋的時候，比較不會有要抗爭或者是要推翻之前要處理的相關手續動作。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "分享一個過去解決的問題，之前有一個議題是：「全國漸近式禁止使用免洗餐具」，我們可以從釐清問題來想這個問題是否可以被解決，結果瞭解到三個主要的原因是，民眾沒有自覺養成自備餐具的習慣，免洗筷取得容易且免費、垃圾增量，及替代方案不足，解決這個問題可以治本，但是這個是治標的方向，還要討論配套措施。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們可以發現如果回歸到大家在意的問題點，並不是拘泥於提出來初步的解法，我們就可以發現對應到這一些問題的解法其實有非常多種都可以解這個問題，我們可以好好選擇、評估哪一些可以合併、哪一些更好，然後產出更適合的方案，並不是一個角度產出的解法，可能有一些這樣子產出的解法會產出更多的問題，這個是我們之前都沒有想到的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "因此，我們會先回推到底為何做這一件事問題背後的原因是什麼及如何解決比較好。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們可以討論全國漸近式使用免洗餐具的期程、KPI，我們要討論出問題才能找出真正的解法。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "不曉得大家為何要討論這個問題，大家知道這一件事從自己的角度看到的問題有哪一些，但是大家知道每一個人都知道問題，有一些面向不同，有一些並沒有互相理解且對焦，因此我們會花很多時間對焦，其實沒有對焦好，其實談再多都是沒有意義的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "談一下如何解決問題，我們確定要談什麼議題的時候，其實就是共識形成，我們在這邊都是有確定要討論燃料費的問題，這個共識已經形成，接下來就會形成問題盤點、歸納、定義與概念發展，後續有政策細部設計規劃等等，其實是不會在今天的討論裡面，因為今天的時間有限，但是後續的政策、相關的設計規劃、測試、執行等等，這個都會交由後續相關的部會去進行與處理，我們今天會處理前面這三個部分。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們有發散、收斂、發散、再收斂的過程，因為我們要發散時是要蒐集大家的意見，接下來會做問題的歸納與釐清，這個時候就開始做收斂，收斂完畢之後會確認問題，看真正的問題是哪一些，才會針對這樣的問題去解，並不會共識形成的時候，去想這一些問題是什麼，這樣會是危險的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "確認問題之後就會做概念發展，去讓大家想有各種可能性去解決我們定義的這一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "所以共識形成就是我們在每一個月開放政府聯絡人的月會，透過三十二個不同部會開放政府聯絡人去決定接下來的協作會議會開什麼議題，共識形成之後就會邀請各位來參加協作會議，我們在會議當中會讓大家自我介紹並提出初步的看法，也讓大家一起盤點、歸納定義問題，然後我們會用這樣子，就像我剛剛所說即時紀錄的方式讓大家看到，這個是我們今天的數位白板，也會針對今天新的發言來作更多的資料登打。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們確認問題定義的部分，這邊也有先做一個初步的歸納，但是接下來大家都可以針對問題的定義再作更多如果要修正或什麼，都有時間給大家作。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "「如何公平徵收道路維管費用，讓用路人可以接受，也同時鼓勵生大眾交通運輸？」這個簡報都會show給大家看，不用擔心。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "問題定義結束之後，我們就要接著討論可能的方案，我們就會用定義出來的這個題目去討論如何解決定義出來的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "下午討論的時候會做更詳細的解說，現在只是讓大家看一下下午討論會有什麼方式，會有不同的方案讓大家做不同類型的評估，像公平性、複雜度、行政成本、相關產業成本等等，讓我們有更多元的開闊討論，針對不同方案其實有什麼樣的優點、缺點，這樣我們就可以更瞭解到我們其實可以選擇什麼樣對大家都有更好的方式，因為當我們有更多的討論、選擇時，我們就可以確保其實有一些不同的人所在意的點，其實是在這邊，我們可以要多多考量等等。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這一張照片是下午時大家討論時的狀況是這樣子，還有時間讓大家作分享。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著我就把時間交給交通部幫我們說明一下今天相關的議題。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "現場及線上的各位朋友，大家早！" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "今天很高興代表交通部來報告汽機車燃料稅改隨油徵收的相關議題說明，我是交通部運輸研究所張朝能。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "今天跟大家報告的有四個大綱：第一，汽燃費徵收制度現況及適法性說明；第二，採燃料徵收分析及配套做法；第三，國際收費趨勢說明；第四，汽燃費徵收制度研究計畫辦理情形。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "首先報告的是汽燃費徵收制度現況與適法性說明。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "公路法第27條為公路養護、修建及安全管理所需經費，可以徵收汽車燃料使用費，使用費的徵收由交通部會商財政部定之。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第27條另訂有燃料費使徵收及分配辦法，會規定費率、徵收方式、免徵車輛、分配等。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "大家對於汽車燃料使用費的名稱可能會誤解汽車使用燃料才徵收的稅費，而被拿來與國外的「燃油稅」比較，我們看到的國外研究是「fuel tax」，認為「fuel tax」是汽車燃料使用費，大家知道汽車也有課徵貨物稅，事實上使用汽油都有課徵貨物稅，你使用汽油都要扣稅，所以燃油稅大家很容易誤解。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "因此，針對這個名稱認為為了公路法第27條的徵收意旨，我們建議更名為道路維管費，當然也有一些民眾或者是一些聲音是不是更名為「道路使用費」，我想這個大家都可以提出來討論。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "如果這個名稱更改之後，我想可以降低社會對於汽燃費的誤解。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "現在是採隨車徵收，是根據汽車的每日里程、使用率、耗油量來推算每月的耗油，我們是以汽缸總排氣量分級及以汽車是600cc分級，再以汽油2.5元/升，柴油1.5元/升，所以事實上現行的隨車徵收，背後隱含使用歷程及用油量的概念，大家理解營業車是每季，自用車及機車是每一年來徵收。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "大法官對於汽燃費的議題，過去有幾個解釋令，跟大家報告一下，汽燃費並不是以燃油的控制量為目的，並不是以燃油實際用量徵收。當然大法官解釋，公路法使用汽車燃料使用費之名稱，並規定以燃油之價格定其費率，即不一定要遽予論斷主管機關應以個別汽車使用量多少，也就是可能過去大家都認為隨油徵收會比較公平，為什麼不用隨油徵收？但是大法官覺得政府部門徵收汽燃費，並不一定要採用隨油徵收的方式，才符合公路法第27條的意旨。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "另外，大法官也解釋汽缸總排氣量的推計，不能完全沒有常理可言，因為大家認為為什麼不隨油徵收？這個比較公平。大家都清楚汽缸排氣量大的話，消耗的燃油可能1公里，1公升跑的里程數越少……我舉例，小汽車在市區裡面，1公升的汽油可能可以跑10公里，但是公車來講，1公升跑3公里，公車的排氣量比小汽車還大，我的排氣量大，消耗的油可能1公升可以跑的公里數越少。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "相對公車的總噸數比我小汽車大，總噸數多，對公路也可能造成更多的負擔，相對的，公車與小機車在稅費上來講會有差別，噸位越大的車子，我收的費用越高，這是我們過去隨油徵收試算的一些理念。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "現在的制度從49年開始，我們過去事實上也有隨油徵收的階段，也就是紅色字是第二階段，50年7月至51年8月，實施了非常短的時間，在50年7月改為隨油徵收，但是當初並沒有一些完善的配套，所以有一些免徵車輛的用油流用，造成我們實收率達65％，為免影響財源，因此改回隨車徵收，從51年9月到現在，84年也陸續增訂一些對象，包含公車、電動車、計程車、偵防車、勘驗車等等，離島地區也有，這一些資料供參考。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "隨燃料徵收的分配之做法，採隨油徵收當然有其優點，對車輛來講，加油也有汽燃費，依照燃油消耗環境道路使用量，另外，行政部門不用寄通知給車主再講。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "但是有幾個課題，我們也可以來考量：" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第一，電動車雖不用油，但是用路，電動車的部分還要研擬隨車徵收的標準。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第二，因為每一台車的燃油效率事實上越來越好，過去1公升可以跑10公里的汽車，到現在可能1公升可以跑20公里，這就會衍生燃油性越來越高，政府部門可能有一些財政穩定性的考量，所以在美國因為用油量逐年減少，而導致公路養護修建的財源沒有辦法穩定，而減少，因此考量里程收費的一些方向。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "如果未來採隨油徵收，油價是含汽燃費裡面，部分營業車輛運輸成本會比現行高，會誤解油價上漲而有物價全面上漲的預期心理。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "有部分免徵汽燃費對象，是不是有一些流用的部分，而造成公共安全的疑慮我想也值得大家探討方向。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "有關於隨油徵收的關鍵點是什麼？也就是用油不用路的對象要辦理退費，這一些是包含提桶加油、發電機、工程機具及農魚用油，雖然有用油，但是沒有用到馬路，這些對象一定要退費，退費的機制大家都要來思考。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "未來如果隨油徵收，加油站的部分要配合，可能會在加油站的時候徵收汽燃費，加油站要辨識哪一些要徵收、哪一些不用徵收，加油的部分要變成兩區，一區要收、一區不收，另外要怎麼退費，這個都是後續有一些配套要談。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "另外，「用路不用油」的電動車，可能要訂定隨車費率的方向。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "還有一些免徵對象的部分，像客運業、計程車，未來是不是要徵收？如何退費，這也是一個議題。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "另外，有關於油品流向，像「用油不用路」的汽油，像我舉例，發電機、柴油不用收費，但是公車也是用柴油，貨車也是用柴油，這一些會不會流用的現象都要加以考慮。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "有關於社會溝通的部分，大家可能最擔心的是，油漲價、物價也要跟著上漲，民眾有一些預期心理，所以政府部門都要跟民眾做一些社會溝通。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "國際上對於這樣的趨勢狀況為何？以美國來講，美國是收「燃油稅」，轉向「道路使用費」，原因在於社會公平，因為電動車越來越多，電動車有用馬路，但沒有加油、收不到，因此要另訂一套制度。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "車輛燃油經濟性提升，有一些車子非常好、非常貴，但可能非常省，因為技術很好，大家都知道很多高級車用柴油，不一定吃汽油（小汽車），因此燃油性很好，1公升可以跑非常多公里，因此相對就少加油，所以就對他少課稅，不公平現象是否會越來越顯著？" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "最主要的考量是政府財政，用油沒有明顯增加，里程也增加有限，但是燃油效率提升，因此聯邦收入一直往下降低。因此美國在2015年開始，針對這個議題，在聯邦有一個FAST法案提供經費投入研究，在奧勒岡甚至已經有正式費收的系統。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "這張是報告美國現況，也就是美國的奧勒岡州，在2015年於前面經過兩次的試辦運行，在民國104年實施雙軌制，也就是有700多輛目前用新制，也就是「道路使用費」，大多數的車輛是用舊制，也就是用隨油徵收的方式，另外新制是用里程收費的方式，華盛頓州、加州目前也正在積極進行測試隨里程徵收的方案。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "歐盟的部分也正在檢討，他們在106年5月歐洲議會有通過，如採用道路收費的話，應考量車行距離、車輛污染的狀況來收費，這是歐盟跟美國目前朝向隨里程徵收的方向走。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "我們在去年也有做過一些研究，建議名稱要更改，因為汽車燃料使用費的名稱會使大家誤解使用燃料才徵收的稅費，有些人會覺得沒有開車，為何要被徵收？因此我們建議名稱更改為「道路維管費」，才符合公路法第27條之「為公路養護、修建及安全管理所須經費」。接著是考量公平性，也就是車重加里程，車開多少里程就徵收多少費用，這個是最公平。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "但是有關於路面破壞是相對嚴重，因此根據美國AASHTO設計指南建議，不同車輛對於鋪面的損壞程度約略為軸重比例的4次方，重車對於路面之破壞及日後所需之維護費用遠高於一般自用車輛，因此我們就用車重加車行里程。而且財源穩定是需要穩定，我們是需要蓋馬路，如果道路不穩定，會打折。有關於國際能源政策性，對於未來的能源運用也是我們收費的方向。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "106年11月13日立法院也決議要儘速就隨里程徵收來做相關的研究，我們的研究會到明年5月29日截止，目前相關技術面的探討，未來探討的部分包括五個層面，像技術層面是哪一些可行的，看有哪一些是需要探討的。社會層面對於隱私、收費制度、資訊安全等等都要探討。看政府層面是哪一些要管理。行政面要如何省人事成本。法令面如果要做這樣的方向，法令面要如何徵收。最重要的是財務面，我們要顧及到財務的穩定與永續，要知道到底收多少，才知道到政府的方向，我們會做探討。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "所以總而言之，汽燃費的徵收制度涉及到民眾的權益，牽涉的範圍很廣，除了進行可行性研究之外，也會隨里程徵收來做一些技術與趨勢，因此會研擬實施計畫及實地測試計畫，完成之後會提送到交通部來作政策性的決定，未來才會調整，以上簡單跟線上的好朋友及現場的好朋友報告，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "在這個階段有沒有其他的同仁需要做簡報？如果有簡報的話，可以在這個階段提出，如果沒有的話，我們就進入大家發言可以交叉討論的時間。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就進行下一個階段，也就是確認事實、釐清爭點，這個部分會由雨蒼協助大家作這部分的討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家好，我是今天助理主持人林雨蒼，我快速帶大家看一下目前整理議題的脈絡，接下來歡迎大家就自己的立場或者是心智圖不足的地方跟我們補充，也讓大家更瞭解這個議題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "一開始就法規面來說，其實很常遇到的問題是汽燃費及其他稅捐很容易造成混淆，很多人會把它跟汽燃稅搞混，其實「稅」跟「費」是不一樣的東西。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實這個費用原本的原因是：為了公路養護、修建及公路安全所需要的經費。所以為了避免大家混淆，有一些更名的倡議，有一些人建議「汽車道路使用費或者是道路維管費」，立法院有提案叫做「道路使用費」，交通部會建議使用「道路維護管理費」，如果聆聽到「維管費」、「汽燃費」，這兩個是同樣的東西。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於牌照稅的違憲，大法官第593號解釋已經沒有違法的疑慮了，而且使用規費與稅捐是被混淆，我們稍微簡單整理稅與費的差別，稅是強制性的，而且是全部都匯入到國家的財政裡面，由統一的統收統支的機制。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "使用規費是受益者付費，因此可以特別規定使用的用途，這個特別使用用途是在道路上，並不是稅捐的性質，而是使用規費的性質。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接下來，目前有人可能會想到有沒有其他稅與車子相關的費用正在收取，目前像牌照稅、空污費及能源稅，我們只是列在這邊參考資料。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "從社會公平面來說，一開始大家提案想像的是，相同排氣量的車子行駛得差異大，同樣的汽燃費之收費其實不符合公平原則，有人用路多、有人用路少，但是大家收一樣的費用，看起來好像不公平，隨車徵費會讓車子很少開的人或者是長開、繳一樣的稅，相對來說是相對不公平的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "也有人質疑為什麼不是跟遊樂園收門票的概念？舉例來說，像我去遊樂園，繳一樣的錢，不玩雲霄飛車、我去逛一逛其實也是一樣的。也有人提到公共天然事業有基本費、重量費，依據使用的度數計費，也許可以有一些類似的方式，像有一個基本費等等。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為公平正義的原則，所以也幾個方向，因此維持現狀的的情況。再來，這個地方是每一年收入是按照車子的排氣量來收費，這個規劃的級距，像每一天使用，比如要區分自用車及使用營業車的使用率，所以最後推估整年行駛量及應繳的費用。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "交通部報告的解釋裡面有提到，排氣量越大，通常代表用油越多，也代表車輛噸位越重，可以拿來作一定程度的推估，也就是這個車輛對於道路破壞量，以此來規劃部會的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然，也有人會倡議是不是要用汽機車燃料費的隨油徵收方式，交通部的回應是目前已經適度考量了，如剛剛所說的，目前有一個算法，在汽燃費的徵收辦法附表1、附表2，另外一方面也鼓勵大家使用大眾運輸，如果用自用車的話，可能會收比較多，如果搭公車，可能會收比較少。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果要隨油徵收的話，如果真的要這樣做，會有幾個問題，第一個是非用油的車輛收不到稅，有些車子是電動車，因為目前是鼓勵電動車發展，而免徵汽燃費的政策，可能未來電動車越來越多，鼓勵的誘因就不存在，可能就要慢慢恢復課徵。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，隨油徵收的電動車不用付錢，其實也是另外一種不公平，因此有人會認為併入能源稅，從源頭收。但是這樣的話，如果電動車併入能源稅，從源頭收的話，怎麼確認有多少電是給電動車、有多少電是給自己家用的東西，因此無法確認使用這個電就是使用道路，而且能源稅的目的其實減少溫室氣體的排放，其實跟汽燃費的目的是不同，這個也要考量。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，有人說電動車、油電混合車要另外訂定收費辦法，這是一個議題，這個收費辦法是什麼？有可能在今天的會議中，稍微跟大家討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前其實交通部運研所有一份可行性的研究報告，這一個部分可以請大家如果有機會的話，對這個議題感興趣可以回去參考這個議題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於汽燃費隨油徵收之後，產業界還是有一些議題，加油站業者會發現跟中油買的價格提高了，其實導致營業稅變高，他們沒有什麼好處，反而營業稅變多，營業成本會有一定程度的增加。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "現行的營業車輛是隨油徵收，而且費率是一樣的，會加重負擔。所以公共運輸車輛應該有配套與補貼，社會溝通要加強，這個是有關於前面交通部報告也有提到的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "要考量運輸業衝擊跟民生的影響，如果讓營業用車或者是運輸貨物車子的稅率增加的話，或者是用油成本提高的話，可能會導致運輸業衝擊跟民生物價的影響，而導致民眾會對此感到不滿。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，但是也有人會反映營業用車使用路多可能會合理，計程車公會有提出書面意見，他們目前依據計程車營業報告書計算，如果隨油徵收還是會造成計程車的費用上漲，因此如果為了避免這一件事是有可能未來的方向，還是研議依照車重或者是里程數來收取，這樣會比較合理一點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，依據不同的車輛收取不同的油品費用，這個可能會造成油品流用的問題。所以目前非車輛用油，像剛剛提到的使用柴油發電機的狀況，有一個用途辨識的機制或者是退補的機制來避免流用。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "像大家收一樣的錢，但是發現你可以不用收這麼多錢，之後再退補給你，一個是要辨識你要加油在車子當中或者是要發電的，就給你不同的費率。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於現行徵收再退費用是一個方法，但是成本相對高。如果今天在加油站就要辨識，就要建立身分辨識的機制，而且加油站成本會一定程度的提高，這樣子對他們的員工訓練是提高的成本。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，農漁用油、農漁機的這一種狀況，因為漁船、農業機其實不會在馬路上跑的，所以如果收這個東西拿去修馬路，其實也滿不合理的，這個地方目前可以參考現行構油的查核機制，目前像漁船是依照照航紀錄器來核算可購油量，農機用油依照訂定用油標準來核算用油量，目前有使用身分證及農機使用證來確認農機符合規定量，就給予免稅的方式。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一種方式是油品收取相同費用，但是後續退費，但是這個地方就會變成行政程序非常繁瑣，比如可能有一個要跟政府說是什麼車子、我今年繳了多少的費用，我覺得應該要退多少錢給我，所以政府才核銷給你，政府有一個機制，不管怎麼樣，民眾的觀感都會變得非常複雜。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一個是研議隨里程徵收的方法，這邊是運研所的方法，這個是建議以車重與行駛里程為汽燃費計算因子，並進行可行分析。這個是一個方式，有一些計算包含GPS，這一些事可能是對於民眾的隱私有很重大的侵犯，不管是哪一種，不管是里程或者是隨油徵收都可能出現不公平的狀況，因為偏遠地區民眾沒有大眾運輸的工具，必須要開車，但其實有各種捷運的選擇，而捷運的選擇是因為政府曾經投入資源在這個地方做軌道建設，這樣會造成另外一種不公平，等於要求偏遠地區去多負擔這樣的費用，不一定是公平的解法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前是有關於我們對於議題的釐清。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "下面是額外的補充，這個部分是從運研所的報告整理的，不用一個個看，基本上是會有隨車重、隨燃油、隨里程各個不同的方案，每一個方案都會有包含免徵對象可能的作業機制是什麼，或者是徵收的機制是什麼，或者是效益是什麼樣，這個是我們這邊的補充，等一下討論的時候，會把意見彙整進來，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請問在場的人有沒有覺得心智圖有需要補充或者是有什麼話想要說的？" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "在我們發表意見之前，是不是可以先請比方經濟部、財政部、中油或者是一些運輸業者發表？沒有什麼想法可以先讓我們知道？因為有一些東西，可能我們講了，你們反對也不一定，我們是不是可以先聽聽你們的意見？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "後面？" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "剛剛聽了與會人員做了詳盡的報告，個人有一個意見，不要把簡單的事情複雜化。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "所謂的燃料稅徵收辦法已行之多年，是不是可以簡單講出這個徵收辦法有什麼不周延的地方，只要針對不周延的地方去做修改即可，以上報告。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我稍微彙整一下，您的意思是我們這樣整理把事情弄得太複雜了，也許從現在的徵收辦法有不周延的地方補強就可以了，沒有必要弄得那麼複雜。我們先收在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "謝謝有這個機會，也希望這一次以後包括到政策上，把這一個問題釐清，不要再有後續的問題。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "今天之所以會發想到有所謂不公平或者是公平的問題，又或者是使用者、不使用者的問題產生，那個是原點；但是我的思考面是，從另外一個不同的面向去走，我們應該定義，也就是定位，定位汽車燃料使用費，或者是要更名的道路維管費，無所謂，使用目的、方向是在那裡的時候。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "我認為到這樣的費用收用的目的為何？要定位出來，要定位到所謂的公課收入或者是規費？顯然不是規費，我把這一些談出來，或者是所謂的稅，剛剛談到顯然已經不是了。因此，我覺得要定位到使用費收入的話，到底在法規上的定位是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "大法官的解釋593號很清楚，是不是違法？沒有。內容有無違法？沒有。很清楚在一個法規命令授權上都沒有違背，沒有違背的情況之下，如何把這個問題解決呢？其實第4點已經很清楚了，目的最重要是已經合法、合憲的重大公益目的，是不是可以從重大公益目的的方向去走呢？也就是這樣的使用目的在重大公益目的(法官解釋的593號)。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "回到我剛剛所提的定義有幾個面，剛剛有那麼多的定位方向走，假如我現在要提供意見的話，從公益性的目的去走，也就是特別公課是有一個目的特徵可以走的，其實在課徵當中有一個「非對待給付」，從「公平性使用者付費」的原則的話，其實內涵當中是有對待給付，" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "特別公課當中有一個課徵非對待給付，有一些朋友提到我的車子不用卻要被收錢，但是非對待給付當中，事實上有一個間接目的與直接目的。我的車雖然沒有開過，但是我一啟動使用，我到地面上，希望有好品質的路可以用，這個是要考慮，並不是使用1公里就收1公里。「非對待給付性質」係為指國家為進行國家特別政策目的而對特定群體課徵一定金額，被課徵的群體因此享有課徵利益，這利益有間接利益、有直接利益，間接利益的狀態，如車輛所有人平時不用道路，但需要道路時，隨時都有品質好的道路可以享有，直接利益，係指車輛所有人隨時都在享用者。如果單純從「公平性使用者付費」的原則的話，其實內涵當中是有對待給付，如果這群使用者，在道路發生車禍，是否要另外徵收道路修護費嗎?這就是公益性目的，發生天災時，政府有將道路的修護責任，發生人禍(車禍)，政府有將道路的修護責任，肇事當事人免負擔道路修護之責任。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "問題是如果發生車禍的話，是不是要負擔更重的費用？道路或者是橋梁壞掉時，誰來負擔？是要完全負擔嗎？國家的稅來負擔嗎？或者是使用者負擔？我從這個面向來談，先談到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，我可能沒有這麼熟法律名詞，您提到的是要定位清楚，定位的問題是不是要請交通部幫忙回應一下？目前汽燃費或者是維管費的定位是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "朱大慶", "speech": "謝謝主持人，汽車燃料使用費的定位是為道路養護、修建跟安全管理等面向徵收，所以運輸研究所才會跟各位報告，目前用汽車燃料使用費的名稱，不容易跟道路養護修建及安全管理連結，因此才會思考正名，以上補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是特別公課或者是？" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "我的意思是利用這個平台，因為從第27條辦法都沒有把這樣的定位訂清楚。利用這個機會把法律定位訂清楚，從大法官第539號的解釋上到第4點，其實很清楚提到使用費，也就是汽車燃料使用費的目的在於重大公益目的性。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "重大公益性目的符合性往上推，有一個叫做「特別公費」，其實有幾個面向、特徵，我只是其中舉一點，也就是對待給付與非對待給付。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "大法官會議當中有講清楚，收這個錢有沒有違法？沒有。有沒有違憲？沒有。事實上國家基於一定公益目的的話，在大法官第593號解釋上，已經很清楚載明國家對於一定的公益目的，或者是重大公益目的，得對特定人民可以一定繳納租稅以外的金錢義務，我們今天所談的是汽燃費的徵收。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "所以在這裡面其實可以等到的是，汽燃費就是非稅的公課，我的意思是，事實上應該把上位概念弄清楚再往下走，該徵收的方法如果定位清楚，後面是隨油徵收也好，或者是用車或者是里程數徵收都好，這樣都弄清楚，我們才可以回應到把這個問題解決掉。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "剛剛交通部有提到一個，也就是您說用里程或者是用車料，我也不知道如何收里程計算，瞭解意思嗎？現在是用公升數跟車輛去收，但是以後如果用里程，我也不知道用里程如何算？" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "像您剛剛所說的大車、小車、跑車、快車，其實里程數會有差別，這個是另外一個問題。我的問題是：還是必須把定位、法規弄清楚，大法官釋字第593號給你一個很好的法規方向去走，不要走偏了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "先請交通部來澄清，等一下先說明一下順序，因為剛剛有提議希望中油跟經濟部表達一些意見，因此會請中油跟經濟部表達意見。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "剛剛有提到有關於里程費收機制，因此運研所請晚一點跟我們分享一下，我們先把這個close掉，等一下再請您發言。" }, { "speaker": "洪宏淳", "speech": "我先講一下，關於剛剛所提到汽燃費法律性質到底什麼問題，基本上按照我們研究過程看下來，對於特別公課或是規費的主張其實都有，不同法院的見解可能都不太一樣，但因為汽車燃料使用費，基本上兩邊的性質都是有的，但是在目前的話，我們把它定位成規費，因為你車子在使用的時候，車子就是要準備道路給你用，你使用道路的時候，就會跟你收汽車燃料使用費，然後讓他來做公路養護、修建、管理等等的目的。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "我再介紹一下，我是遊覽車及小客車全聯會理事長，為什麼我要先講？我先表達一下運輸業，尤其是遊覽車及小客車的意見，再讓交通部解釋。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "剛才一直提到的是什麼為社會公平？要怎麼公平？第一個是對產業要公平，對這一些規定要公平，讓大家都能夠做。但是規定怎麼樣我們等一下來研究，這是朝公平來做，那麼對於產業有沒有公平？" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "剛才大家都有談到，這是對整個運輸業成本的提高，運輸業的成本提高會影響到誰？會影響到整個消費者，所以如果要從運輸業這個成本提高方面來討論。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "我要談到公平，遊覽車可以說是運輸量之冠，社會大眾都不知道，遊覽車並不是大眾運輸，也不是公共運輸，因此對遊覽車的成本提高了很多。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "我們要讓這一些遊覽車列入到大眾運輸的話，整個消費者、成本就會降低，那談到以後要補助，這個可以比照大眾運輸是最好的，這個是第一點。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "有關於要更名或者是怎麼樣來計算，又或者是財源、電動車等等，這一些是沒有意見的，我們希望整個消費者能夠得到比較低的大眾運輸費。" }, { "speaker": "林建良", "speech": "我們要再代表小客車發表意見，剛剛有提到計程車，其實我們跟計程車也是，我們並不是計程，我們是以時、日在收費，但是也是屬於服務大眾，也算是大眾運輸，因此要公平，不然政府大小眼，不能說計程車是大眾運輸，小客車就不是，但是公車就是，我們要納入遊覽車、小客車租賃，以服務整個社會大眾。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "感謝您的意思，您是說遊覽車、小客車應該要變成大眾運輸，以降低成本。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請經濟部簡報。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "交通部的簡報有提到燃油費及道路使用費是不夠清楚的，我建議交通部要說清楚，這樣民眾才會有一定的認知，聽起來大家對名詞都有誤解，這個部分先請交通部要說清楚，讓大家知道真正收費的作用是道路養護跟維安的部分。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "交通部需要一些變革的部分，經濟部尊重交通部，但是如果隨油徵收的話，因為現在聽起來很多工作都要我們的石油產業的朋友們幫忙做，這一個部分我們的石油業者，像中油、台塑石化公司，像加油站業者等等這麼多的朋友，他們需要釐清一件事，請交通部一定要考量進去，因為我們的業者本身有自己應該要做的事情，而這一些額外多出來的是不是他們可以做得來，一定要幫他們考量，他們是否可以承擔這麼重的事。" }, { "speaker": "蔡秀芬", "speech": "第二，如果我們用隨油徵收的話，民眾、一般消費者都是在加油站看到油價上漲，這一個部分會被誤導，然後會產生很嚴重的預期心理，對穩定物價其實會產生很大的衝擊，這一定要事先衡量，如果交通部要朝這部分走的話，請交通部一定要對外說明清楚是因為怎麼樣的變革而加到油價上，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家在意的有幾個不一樣的價值，一個是公平，可能是使用者收費的公平；也有是行業間的公平；另外一個是徵收的時候，這個成本到底是由誰來負擔，如果是加油站業者負擔合理嗎？或者是我們應該要如何減少負擔？又或者是最後導致認知油價上漲，或者是認為物價會上漲的這一件事，可能會造成很高的社會成本，這個是不是要再考量？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "中油的朋友有想要再回應嗎？" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "我代表全國所有加油站的業者。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "今天我的角色剛剛交通部已經解釋得很清楚了，這個是屬於道路維修及管理的費用，因此訂定在交通部的下面。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "但是如果這個是能源費的話，應該是要環保局或者是能源局來收這個費用，所以如果這個費用以目前加油站的營運來說的話，我們先要進油，然後繳錢給中油，這個錢都要先繳，然後再賣給客人。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "有哪一筆費用是由別人先幫你繳錢，然後再跟第三者收這一筆錢？這個產生很不公平的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "再來，大家想說這個費用1元、2元可能對我們的營收佔比可能沒有多少，假設我們目前的稅基，隨油徵收帶到7、8元，最終目的的話，像油價來到28元，可能是佔營業額的1/4，那個是很可怕的比例。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "因此不要想說政府只有請業者代徵這1、2元，其實換算下來的話，營業費用增加了有幾千萬，政府收稅，業績比較好的一點可能要好幾億，業績比較不好的是1、2,000萬都有，並不是簡單的管理費用而已，還有信用卡支出的費用。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "大家已經習慣加油刷卡，刷卡費用都涵蓋在裡面了。" }, { "speaker": "顏呈照", "speech": "如果這一筆費用在營業費用1/4的話，銀行業者可能會比我們還要好賺，他們賺手續費就賺飽了，因此這一個議題希望與會的各位可以瞭解一下，我們的費用並不是單純這麼簡單。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝加油站的困境。" }, { "speaker": "許欽智", "speech": "我代表全聯會。" }, { "speaker": "許欽智", "speech": "如果要採用隨油徵收這個方式的話，目前環保局有弄了一條空污費，那個是「費」，並不是「稅」，財政部的官員有在，這個部分還沒有扣除，也是納入營業所得當中，因此這一個部分已經造成會員哀號了。" }, { "speaker": "許欽智", "speech": "因此，如果要再把這個納入，如果空污費沒有先解決掉，我們不可能讓它納入，每一個站的營業額都要加好幾百萬給財政部，又不橫向聯繫，你們說是財政部徵收，跟我們沒有關係，如果再把這個東西加在我們身上，已經買了高鐵票去7-11要負擔10元的手續費，你們要加是ok的，空污費先剔除掉，再加進來以後再給手續費，這樣子加油站的大家都沒有意見。" }, { "speaker": "許欽智", "speech": "如果採用這一種方法的話，我們是ok的，但是如果硬要加到裡面去，我們是絕對反對，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "您的意思是加油站成本提升以外，其實還包含了目前各個部會有時橫向聯繫不足，大家想到什麼就加上來，而導致你們的困擾，我們先收下來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，先請提案方來幫忙說明一下你們的看法。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "不好意思，我是蔡至兼。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "剛剛聽了各位的講法，我只有一個很簡單的想法，政府在玩文字遊戲，「費」跟「稅」，中華民國萬萬稅，大家都知道，什麼都要收錢。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "剛剛交通部的長官有提到現在改成「道路使用費」，其實是一樣的意思，完全一模一樣，而且道路使用費要如何徵收，這個是第一個。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "第二，很多的法規已經不符合使用，剛才看到一條差一點笑出來，有一條是指「大排氣量」，排氣量大代表交通工具越重，沒有啊！現在連大型運輸車都已經輕量化，麻煩一下，好不好？" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "對路面的損耗，這個我同意，像托運車那個一定會，但是像房車的部分，我舉一個例子，你們說大的排氣量耗油、空污重，現在有所謂的油電混合車，國外也有跑車是1.6、1.0，馬力4.0，是不是耗油？一定耗油，請問法規是不是要修改？法規已經不符合時代了，很多的法規除了這個之外，很多的法規是沒有跟上那個時代的腳步，包含像跟財政部有關的關稅問題，像在分級上都要作修改。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "所以都不要再玩「稅」跟「費」的文字遊戲，對一般的老百姓來講，聽不懂「費」跟「稅」，只知道這一筆錢是要繳給政府，現在有一個問題，隨油徵收就我個人來講，因為我也是一個用車者，我當然同意，為什麼？因為使用者付費，對於有一些運輸業者會覺得這個會增加社會成本，但是如果把它歸納在公共運輸的部分給予減免，這個我同意。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "有關於遊覽車的部分，我說實在的，像也可以當成像公車，比如比較偏遠的地方，也可以幫忙一些居民，當作他們公共交通的移動運輸，我覺得這個可以減免；但是因為很多還是用在營業上，這個減免會讓一般的民眾產生反感，會覺得不公平。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "另外，像計程車業者好了，他們覺得為何要減免？像我及在座的很多人都要開車通勤，我們為的是什麼？我們在拼生活，我們為了生活在打拼，計程車司機也是為了生活在打拼，他們會覺得為何他們不用收、我們不用收？他們會覺得不公平。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "另外，有一個問題也懇請公部門不要把所有的東西弄得很複雜，其實這個東西很簡單，沒有你們想像中的這麼複雜，弄了一大堆的東西，又聽到為了電動車等等，還要再怎麼樣，你們要把事情弄這麼複雜，難怪事情做不好，難怪要很長的時間才會有一個定案出來，不需要。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "像剛剛提到漁船的部分，對，沒有使用到道路，可以不徵收，那乾脆就直接跟老百姓講說：「我現在要徵收這一筆錢，以後不叫燃料費，而是道路費。」怎麼徵收？會有重量稅，為什麼會有？考量到道路是不是會被破壞？也是拿這一筆錢做維修使用。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "另外一個，道路的部分也是交通部（處理）。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "地方政府。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "中央應該也有權利來做監督，不要一天到晚挖路。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "第二，道路品質好一點，今天鋪路、明天就換，這個會讓老百姓不知道在做什麼？一天到晚在修，消化預算並不是這樣消化的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "因此這個部分麻煩不要把所有的東西做得很像很複雜，其實就是很簡單，我會建議與其說「隨油徵收」，像剛剛也有提到會增加負擔，我說真的，多了這個東西為何公部門沒有做像空污費的部分，比如增加他們的工作時間，一樣的，你今天修改了牌照稅、燃料稅之後，不管是監理單位、財政部也好，遊戲規則重新訂，公務員嘛！老百姓的看法是，公務員就是不想增加工作，對不對？然後時間會拉得很長。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "所以，基本上希望交通部這邊可以把它改成道路管理費，我想對其他人來講，應該沒有什麼問題，因為馬路是大家都在使用。但是收費麻煩用車輛的重量為基準，不要說便宜行事就拿現在的這一些所有排氣量，也就是目前徵收費用，然後直接把名稱轉換，老百姓會氣死，一定跟你幹譙，不好意思，我說話比較直接，以上先這樣，其他的我們下午再討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們下午彙整一下剛才提到的一些東西：" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一，您對於行業這邊彼此的公平，像認為遊覽車可以當成交通運輸才可以減免，其實跟今天的議題並沒有太多的關係，如果交通部願意，可以稍微澄清一下公共運輸行業認定的標準是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "您其實也不反對改名，如果可以改名可以有正確的認知，也贊成為「道路管理費」。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前也會建議參考日本，也就是不要用排氣量，也是用重量費來徵收。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "建議改名稱，但是在收費的標準不要用現在所謂的燃料費部分。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "比方現在7,000多元、1萬多元來收，這個要來重新計算，因為這個跟財政部一定有關。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "當然這個地方的收費標準，其實最重要的並不是維持現在的道路，希望未來還可以做道路品質的提升，讓大家有更好的路面可以使用。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我想稍微請教一下，因為您有提到參考日本徵收重量費，請問重量費是如何收？這個是怎麼樣的情況？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第二，根據運研所的規劃，如果用車重加里程來收是更公平，您覺得怎麼看？" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "要把一些東西複雜化，真的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "因為日本買車有很多的規費，重量稅是其中的一項，買車一定要繳稅金，怎麼樣的機制說真的我也不曉得。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "但是剛剛又說到用里程，真的太複雜了，是不是為了這一些東西又要另外再拉一個部門出來或者怎麼樣，我不知道，我不知道公部門如何運作這個東西，所以請交通部這邊不要再把東西複雜化，老百姓會搞不懂，而且很多的規範上，請用一般老百姓看得懂的文字，看了一些條文或者是什麼東西，說真的我也看不懂，不知道你們在講什麼東西。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝建議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "參考日本買車的重量稅，其實您有另外一個建議，您不希望把問題弄得那麼複雜，讓大家不好理解，因此一個問題是交通部如果可以的話，在相關的說明文字上可以更親民一點，不要讓大家看不懂。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我記得sli.do上有一些問題：「是否分為大噸位大車子的的養路費、小車與摩托車隨油徵收的用路費」、「建議分為： １．養路費：噸位重量較重大車，依地磅過磅重量級數倍率，採RFID車牌、以AGPS APP里程(兩種定位方式並行避免竄改)收費。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "這個我附議，我認為那不是感受性的問題，先不討論他是不是花太多的腦袋（寫的），但這個本來就是不當的連結，因為現在的車子，你的牌照……像燃料的使用跟排氣量並沒有相對應的連結。以往是這樣子，但是因為現今科技發達之下，像車輛使用非常多的缸內直噴、稀薄燃燒，還有可變壓縮引擎，甚至有雙噴射的一些引擎系統。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "為何說這個東西這麼說？其實在環保法規上，一直要求車輛要達到多少的油耗才能做上市銷售，其實重點並不是在於要節省，而是要減少污染，對不對？如果用車重，像剛剛運研所有提到車重對於路面的損害是4次方，因此是很重大的連結，但是重量跟現在的排氣量並不是劃上等號，這個是第一件事。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "第二，既然是道路的維護費，當然使用者付費，我認為其實是相當的合理，以我一個人來說好了，如果是3萬行駛公里，一台車是3萬公里，五台車也是3萬公里，我不是一次開五台車，會不會同時出門？也是有可能的，你加油就有行駛的里程，而且每一台車1公升可以使用的里程數也是不一樣的，因此用里程計算的時候，可以加速淘汰耗油量高的老車，越新的車子，因為環保法規要求越高了，所以對於空氣的污染反而是更少的。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "如果這樣子的方式來作推廣的話，除了證明，第二個是要讓車子促進民眾更換車輛，其實也促進產業經濟的帶動，我覺得這個是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "至於大眾運輸的部分，如果加油太貴就用大眾運輸系統，反而可以促進大眾運輸系統的使用率，這個是第二點。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "再來，漁船沒有使用道路本來就有一個機制存在，因此我覺得不會有太多會影響的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊收攏一下您的看法，第一個是您認為這個制度其實應該要考慮到更多的價值，包含是不是鼓勵大家使用大眾運輸工具，是不是可以協助來淘汰一些高耗能的汽車，這個事情對公共利益是有幫助的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不過這邊我也要替交通部說一下，因為我們之前就這一個議題有閱讀過非常多的資料，其實對於這一個制度要怎麼改變，其實交通部從以前到現在花了非常多的心力來作研究與調查，也開了非常多次的工作坊，只是也請您見諒，政府制度的改變需要很多的研究與調查，因此這樣才會比較知道一下子不會造成大家的衝擊、浪費大家的時間以造成抱怨，因此這個地方交通部還是要花一些時間來弄得複雜一點，就是把這一些議題給大家看，調查到大家發現相關的東西其實是相對不少，因此這個複雜度請大家稍微見諒，真的沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "其實「隨油徵收」的問題已經淘汰十幾年，我入行已經二十幾年，從討論到現在，完全沒有結果，我們不知道複雜度在哪裡，可能會影響到現有財政上的稅收，為什麼？現在徵收燃油費，即使這一台車一年之後跑200公里，每一年還是會被課稅，可是當你變成隨油徵收的時候，不好意思，這一台車課不到他的稅，我覺得這個應該跟財政部比較有關。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "所以隨油徵收，可能會影響到國家的稅收，但是我想大家公部門的長官都很有辦法把這一些轉換成一定的稅收，搞不好會更多，這個是老百姓的看法，因為我是老百姓。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "所以我希望這個東西不管隨油徵收或者是道路使用費或者怎麼樣，真的，拖太久了，已經二十幾年來，不要再拖下去，好不好？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "根據前面的這個東西，像主管機關並不是財政部，收到是交通部，因為是專款專用的東西。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "稅的部分是財政部的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "問題是費用，並不是稅。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "所以玩文字遊戲。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有「大噸位大車的養路費，建議每次過地磅時以重量再列入養路費倍率參考；同時校正RFID、AGPS定位」，就是讓大噸位大車通過的時候就算平均重量；「汽燃費主要用作道路養護，正名並無問題，但請真正考慮反映真實道路使用及破壞程度來進行課徵基準的調整，這樣才能符合用路人所要求的公平正義。」才能符合用路人所要求的公平正義，這其實也是在意的公平問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有一個人問公益性是什麼？我不太理解這一位朋友的意思？" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "剛剛有出現一段文字，像隨油徵收或許是能夠淘汰掉所謂高耗能的老舊車輛。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "這一陣子已經將近快一年了，鬧得沸沸揚揚老車，一至三級要符合四級環保，這個是中央的政策，用這個理由來改變隨油徵收上路，如果訊息傳出去的話，我相信所謂的行政單位接到反彈力量會更大，每一個人都知道。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "從淘汰老車一至三級，並符合四級環保的概念，是違背物理原理以外，不瞭解老百姓都一樣，想開好車、汽車，但是社會條件不足，個人經濟條件不足，請重視這一點。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "如果有助於高耗能的車輛這一條要先拿掉，不然可能會被丟雞蛋，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "我作一下回應，我自己本身也是老車收藏家，空污法來的時候，我最怕，因為空污法是要強制淘汰，我花了這麼多的錢在做這一些經典車輛的收藏，卻要強制淘汰我的車，我認為是侵犯到我的權益，我認為不合法。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "但是我剛剛提的這一段，是讓市場機制淘汰，我可以收藏老車，政府沒有強制淘汰我的老車，但是因為耗能，這些老車平常不會是代步工具，因為耗能的話，我會開新車出門，我平常不會開，因為耗油、沒有冷氣，我會開新的電動車出門。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "像大貨車等等，事實上造成污染的來源，我覺得並沒有作所謂的強制，而是使用舊的車輛，你的油耗高等等，要來繳費用，不如繳貸款換新車比較實在，這個是市場機制反映。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "您的意思是政府應該要維持好的規則讓市場機制來反映，也同意不要用太強制的方式來淘汰。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我看一下sli.do的問題？或者是都收了？如果都收的話，有一個議題是請交通部補充一下，也就是關於隨里程徵收，目前有哪一些方法，因為剛剛有人沒有聽得非常清楚，也就是其他國家隨里程徵收是什麼模式。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "接下來請計程車幫忙發表一下意見。" }, { "speaker": "蔡至兼", "speech": "我希望主管機關不要參考太多國外的法規，我是說真的，是從排除法規、環保、油耗都是參考的，但是有沒有想想看臺灣自己本身有沒有那個條件？結果搞到最後，說真的，那真的會引民怨，搞不好國產車會死掉，這個會造成社會成本，你們要擔嗎？真的會死。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "為什麼國產車……我沒有聽得很懂。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "剛剛講的國產車會這樣滅掉是有一個原因，因為國產車在政府保護下太久了，完全不長進，到後來變成是車子賣的比進口車還要貴，像杜拜買兩一台，臺灣只能買一台，而且還是國產車，你覺得這樣合理嗎？臺灣用一些很奇怪的保護傘去保護這一些國產企業，對，用意是保護國產企業，但是長久下來導致這一些企業不長進，他們會認為反正政府就是要保護我，我也不用去進步，沒有關係，反正我國外沒有賺錢，再壓榨臺灣勞工就好了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不好意思，因為時間的問題，我想要瞭解這與這個議題的關聯是什麼？因為政府太保護，所以導致車子用油或是環保法規不合乎，所以需要用這個方式來考量是不是讓我們的國產車跟上我們的腳步，是不是這個意思？" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "光是進口車課重了關稅，臺灣人就只能選擇這一種車，為何大家老車不願意換？因為新車貴，你進口車課稅在那，勢必進來就要漲價，國產車又賣芭樂價，國外一台賣2、30萬，臺灣進來就賣了7、80萬，這樣是不是合理？不合理啊！" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "關稅導致這一些車輛被漲價，企業也不用長進，反正就是有這一些錢可以賺，導致大家都不想換車，當然高耗能的車輛就一直在路上跑，這是一定相對產生的問題，不能說因為高耗能，然後又想要強制淘汰掉，人民都沒錢了，你還要他去換車，難怪你會有一堆民怨出來，1、2、3期要比照4期，你可以叫65歲的老人去比照海軍陸戰隊的體能嗎？不可能嘛！像交通部在座官員可以比照20幾歲的海軍陸戰隊？我可以說沒有人。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "你強制拔人家的牌，這個也是不合理，基本的環保法規就是不合理，你用強制性，以前是用市場機制去淘汰，你現在直接丟一個議題出來，就是要強制性，把這一些殺掉，為了什麼？為了圖利某些特定廠商，不是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解，意見先收到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請交通部補充一下目前提到的隨里程徵收的費收機制大概是什麼樣子？" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "我代表交通部來補充。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "剛剛有人提到未來隨里程徵收有什麼技術？我舉美國奧勒岡是用OBD2，我先解釋OBD2是什麼東西。現在環保署規定97年以後的新汽油車，車上有一個OBD2，會偵測你的車速、用油狀況，會有一個裝置在你的車子裡面；柴油車是101年以後的新車都要；機車是106年以後都要，這三種車子。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "美國是根據OBD2加GPS，把這個車子開多少里程的資料傳到管理平台去，管理平台就知道你這個車子開了多少公里，這個是美國的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "目前我們的研究團隊就現在的幾個方案研究，第一個方案是車子馬表，也就是看所謂的里程數，每一台車子都有里程數，你看里程數多少，很多人說對這個很方便，因此就可以讀取，但是缺點是容易篡改，這個不公平。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第二個是OBD2，也就是仿照國外，有優點、也有缺點，優點是可以讀取，有的人是說不一定準確，因為有誤差，加GPS會不會有個人隱私的問題，這個都要探討。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第三個是OBE，大家比較知道OBU，OBU是車上的裝置，車上的裝置是外加的，新車可以內含，舊車是外加，這個跟OBD2一樣，但是不一定是只有讀取里程而已，有很多車聯網的技術可以再加進來，因此探討的是OBE，也就是好幾種總和是OBE，你可能加你的手機，但是我不知道大家是不是懂的，Beacon是近距離的搜尋，如果上車去開，加上這個Beacon，這一台車就知道某某人開了多少，但是很多人知道的是手機常常在變，因此這個不一定準確。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第五個是大家講的是我們現在臺灣做的ETC高速公路很成功，是不是也可以來布置ETC的偵測設施？也有人提出來，大家就說有可能嗎？如果這樣的話，是不是各個馬路都要裝置ETC的偵測設備？所以針對這五個的技術面，已經開了幾次會議。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "像我剛剛跟大家報告的Beacon加手機及新技術，第四個跟第五個，大家認為可能性比較低，所以目前就三個方案在評估中：" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第一個是馬表，如何防止它篡改？" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第二個是OBD2的部分是美國用，我們在探討。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "第三個是OBE的部分。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "這三個技術研究團體開了幾次會議，專家學者、產業界都在做，目前做這樣的工作我們會送出幾個技術的可行，我們會再提到產業界來討論，以上補充，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為時間的關係，一個是計程車代表、然後再請許欽智、謝騰輝發明。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "都市看天下，鄉下都沒有考慮到，為何還要再發言？因為主持人沒有把我的東西提報到當中。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "剛剛有人在反映使用費的定位，到底是規費或者是什麼東西，我不太清楚，有大法官593號的解釋，在裡面已經很清楚表明到是重大目的公益性的使用徵收目的，有關於公平性的問題應該要納入，但是重大公益性就大法官解釋第4點應該要納入，因此公平性應該要納入，只是沒有那麼巨大，事實上應該要退位了。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "就成本的部分，對我們來講的話，為何我們會比較care？燃料費是很大的成本，依計程車來講，一個月的收入，也許是4萬6，4萬6包含油費，加起來一些維修、保險費、服務費及停車費，這樣子大概是2萬2左右，所以收入不到2萬3，我講的是北區的價錢，鄉下更少，大概是2萬2,800元左右。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "如果是排除的話，這一筆費用不會再增加，對於他的收入就只有2萬2,800元，就比現在一般工資的還要少，每一天要工作12個小時，實收進入2萬2,800元，這個是計程車的部分。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "聯結車、貨車及遊覽車，每一個月的油料使用量今天我沒有帶來，因此沒有辦法很準確告訴你增加的成本是多少，如果是採用隨油徵收，這樣的話，職業駕駛人會死一整片(成本會增加太大)，以上。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是不是可以請你幫忙說明一下，您剛剛一直提到公益性，假設這個東西公益性可能會有哪一些面向？其實之前有人有提到會有更好的路面使用，除此之外還有什麼公益性？" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "我所謂的意思是，公益性不能把公平性帶進來，因為我們今天的問題會發酵是在於使用者付費原則，使用者付費原則是對待給付，也就是平等性，公益性就沒有平等性，應該這麼說，公益性的平等性就不是唯一考量，而是公益目的在哪裡，我不能跟你定義什麼是公益目的，你自己去找，大法官會議解釋再看。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "為何會特別提到特別公費？裡面的要項當中有幾個重點。課徵目的、對象、法律關係、有無對待給付？是不是專款專用？公益性是大法官解釋的，我說的使用費；課徵對象是這一些有車的人，並不是自為使用者，這裡面是有自為有上路、沒有上路的，你有但是沒有上路的，也應該納入進來收。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "第二，是不是有特殊關係？當然有，法律關係非常清楚，而且沒有違背、合憲，第27條是有辦法，然後再分配。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "第三，有沒有對待給付？並不是對待給付，規費給付就是對待給付，像這個錢是一個目的，有A、B的話，這樣子對下來，但是對使用費並沒有對待給付，我就是這麼做，提供你要不要用，但是一個品質保證，也就是上來的時候，我就有一個很好的東西，因此沒有對待給付的存在。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "為何要提到特別公課的問題？特別公課是在最大目的，上位的概念是公益性。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "最後一個，有無專款專用？當然有啊！目的收下來就是我們的維護，然後修建、管理用。這個是三大目的很清楚在那裡。" }, { "speaker": "黃淑惠", "speech": "最後沒有對待給付？你車子買了，上車要隨時給你用，這個在解釋上是「間接有利性」，並不是「直接」，直接使用道路是間接有利性、用益性。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝補充。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "剛剛這一位小姐純粹就法律層面來論述，對我來講沒有辦法，我是屬於庶民，庶民講的或許比較「土」。交通部剛剛提的是新的科技產品，包括我認為所謂的GPS、Ecate（音譯）、OBE、OBD2，" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "事實上我認為這一些講法可以加在車上，這當中作為依據來隨油徵收，站在所謂老百姓的角度講，這一些東西講真的，是政府找我來拿錢假裝的費用，政府要不要負擔？" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "現在裝GPS，叫我們花錢，每個月還要管理費，我們現在被K得滿頭包，這個並不符合所謂的自由市場機制，社會上都講求公平，為何會我花錢裝GPS，然後我做得要死，如果不符合你的標準，馬上給我一張9,000元的紅單。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "剛剛提的是ARTC跟VSCC的問題，車測中心跟車安中心的問題，把駕駛員找回來，頭額上植入晶片，這個是你家的故事，跟我家沒有關係。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊很重要的是提到成本的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "剛剛有問我們里程收費的技術，我剛剛報告那五種模式是里程收費的技術，並不是隨油徵收的技術，我要替理事長特別澄清。" }, { "speaker": "李式嘉", "speech": "這個是依據，你說可以利用產品來作為收費的參值，用數據來作為參值？" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "這一些科技是為了要用徵收的時候，技術有這幾種，這個是要跟理事長說明的。" }, { "speaker": "張朝能", "speech": "這一些技術未來要如何收費，並沒有討論與定調，因此要跟理事長報告的是，理事長提到說要跟民眾收錢，還沒有這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家今天早上有看到我們報告時有特別提到，今天這一場協作會議，目的並不是因為有了一個政策或者是既定的方向所以來跟大家討論，而是因為有人在網路上提出，而這一個議題確實延燒了很久，因此找這個機會邀請大家一起來對話。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "未來如果真的要調整的方向，今天討論的東西都可以讓政府來討論及做政策規劃的參考。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "今天是在政策的階段，我們還沒有到打算要去做或者已經制定法規了，無論怎麼樣，我也有看到簡報當中也有提到，假設真的規劃一些東西，交通部這邊也會做一些試行或者是測試的方式，確定真的不會給大家帶來太多的麻煩或者是怎麼樣，才會有比較好的導入，大概是這樣子，跟大家作說明。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "今天的議題是講是否隨油徵收的議題，有關於這一個法條是很清楚的，本來是在於用在公路維修上的費用，只是名稱讓大家容易誤解，這個是兩回事。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "至於是隨油徵收或者是隨里程徵收，這個是可以被探討的議題。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "有關於交通部提到如果是隨里程徵收的時候，也就是隨里程來做一些里程的紀錄，有關於未來的時代，每一台車都必須在網路上有一個IP位置，也就是基本上現在大家比較探討議題是：如果裝了OBD2是在個資法，比如侵犯個人隱私，在美國有很多研究報告指出，像裝載OBD2偵測駕駛行為狀況，或者是可以知道在汽車保險上做動態的調整，甚至像剛剛提到的有700多輛車現在選擇裝載系統，採用的是隨里程數徵收，但是這個都是實驗性質。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "現在有多少設施可以去做，我想這個是言之過早，不要想說要花多少錢做多少設備去圖利財團，這一些東西還要叫民眾去買，這個是莫名其妙的行為，因此運輸業者會有這樣的反彈，這個是很合理的。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "至於隨里程、隨油，或者是車重加里程，還有很多探討的空間，為什麼？現在車量的油耗，並不是每一輛車都是同等的油耗表現，甚至有新車、舊車的差異，每一輛車行駛也不同，如果用公平性來討論的時候，為何不繞到最前頭的源頭去？用排氣量來區分不同的燃料費，基本上就是不公平正義的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "謝騰輝", "speech": "我覺得大家可以理性一點，因為畢竟這個流程，我覺得應該是這樣順下來，並不是現在在討論馬上就要做OBD2、增加多少成本，這個是我想要跟大家分享、緩和一下氣氛。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "又要如何執法，才能強制民眾？因為車輛維護是民眾個人自己的義務，並不是要人家跟他講他才去維修，而是知道自己壞掉因此才維修。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "大家最常見的是篡改馬表里程，雖然診斷電腦沒有辦法篡改，但是馬表可以篡改，叫人家調一調就可以了，計程車業、很多中古車都做這樣的事，調整成3萬、2萬公里你也不知道，這一台車行駛幾個小時等等，我們後來才會知道，被調整過，民眾才會知道如何被調過，這樣一定不知道。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "你壞掉如何強制他維修，這又是另外一個問題了，怎麼樣都是不適合的，里程沒有跑，所以也沒有保養了，都是亂騎，你要如何改善這個問題？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝實務上導入可能會發生的問題，包含里程篡改或是壞掉如何稽核，避免強制他來維修。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do上還有三個問題：「稅賦有特殊目的要考量的話，例如減少空汙、獎勵節能車，可以使用管制誘導性的方式」這其實跟剛才謝大哥這邊分享是類似的；「遊覽車客運業及小客車租賃業若可以列入大眾運輸的範疇(法規明定)此，才有進一步考量更改的必要。任意更改不僅造成產業衝擊，成本提升，也嚴重違反信賴保護原則。」這部分交給交通部；「計程車不是本來就免收了嗎？應該不需要再討論了吧。」這個是有人的意見、「例如一公升可以跑20公里以上給予燃料費、牌照稅部分減免，持有成本降低，民眾選擇節能車的意願才會提高。」這個是呼應謝大哥剛剛的說法；汽車燃油效率在能源局都有公布，屬於公開訊息，可以善用。」、「任意更改不僅造成產業衝擊，成本提升，也嚴重違反信賴保護原則。」這其實許多公會這邊的立場是類似的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們的意見收攏到這裡，請看一下下午的討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "今天早上的討論，可以看到大家圍繞在幾個問題上，有人提到有關於公共利益的部分，我覺得公共利益的部分，也許大家如果有想到的話，我們可以放在下面的部分。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "再來，大家會在意的是費收的制度，隨油、隨里程、隨車重，還有如何複雜處理，這個是比較公平的，也就是大家常常討論的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "再來有人討論的是，我們為什麼要把自己弄得這麼複雜？是不是可以這麼簡單一點？讓大家比較好理解？這個是複雜度的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第三個是有關於成本的部分，有人提到有關於收費的方式，是不是會造成加裝的成本？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "收的費用是不是會導致營業稅增加或者是工作成本？又或者是工作上的一些成本增加，而造成利潤被侵蝕，這個是相關產業的成本，包括導致社會成本。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一個是行政成本，是不是會導致行政機關上收費的成本也會進一步提高或者是導致因為複雜度提高，而導致溝通成本的提高，這可能也是另外一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們下午的部分會用維持現狀、隨油徵收、隨里程徵收、隨歷程加車重徵收，我們會討論「如何公平徵收道路維管費用，讓用路人可以接受，也同時鼓勵生大眾交通運輸？」" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個題目的是，因為大家早上的討論，我覺得大家都不會反對的一件事是，這個道路的維管費用的徵收是有需要的，只是徵收的時候要如何更公平，進一步可能不要降低社會會遇到的成本，然後讓大家是可以接受的，但是同時我們也要考慮我們在使用這個制度時，我們如何鼓勵大家，並不是讓大家跑去開車，而是鼓勵是不是用大眾交通運輸，包含公車、客運等等方式來減少對道路的破壞，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有沒有人覺得這個題目還要再更改的？" }, { "speaker": "洪宏毅", "speech": "想要確認道路維管費是包含所有的道路嗎？高速公路跟一般平面道路嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "洪宏毅", "speech": "某些程度上應該要分開來算，而且道路養護費，我覺得很納悶的是政府沒有針對道路養護的部分討論，臺灣的路爛不是一、兩天的事，路爛造成成本的損耗，也是本次汽燃費徵收的議題，有關於道路整修的部分，政府有沒有好好抓不良的包商，也就是道路損耗的費用有沒有針對性討論？如果能夠減少這部分無謂的損耗支出，所謂的道路養護費用就可以減少很多，先解決這部分根本性造成養護成本上升的問題，政府再來想要怎麼變更費用收取方式會比較妥當。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "您的意思是，如果收的費用不夠，或者是政府花用是沒有效率的，導致我們到最後有到很爛的馬路，結果最後產生我們的車輛要修理的成本是提高的，我覺得這個在下午討論的時候放進來。" }, { "speaker": "Jacky", "speech": "有關於討論的部分要趁機講一下，並沒有共同的管理，台電挖完、自來水來挖完、自來水挖完再換中華電信挖，大家挖完之後就跑掉。然後鋪好之後，人孔蓋的也來挖，因為蓋子被埋住，所以又挖掉了。像我住的地方是人稱功德市，市區某一條主要幹道，道路不到兩個月就變成波浪狀，現在還是波浪狀，你說造成車輛使用上的損害，這個又要誰來負責？道路又不做好。人家看到的是這裡壞，那裡也壞，人家說臺灣的道路是培育世界越野車車手的好地方，道路都亂挖都亂補，明明就已經補過高了，卻堅持不挖起來，提到人家要叫他重做才來，那就是社會成本的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解，非常感謝補充。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "早上的部分就到這個地方，接下來會先進入到用餐的時間，接下來用餐大概到1點30分，如果大家覺得今天早上還有想到什麼東西，都可以想一下，到下午討論的時候可以提出來，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來討論的題目因為早上討論有做一些修正，我們原本有放「公平」，但是剛剛在討論過程中，也有滿多討論是在於「公益性」，因此也把「公益性」放進去，因此現在是如何兼顧與重大公益性的前提之下，然後後面是一樣的，「徵收道路維管費用，讓用路人可以接受，也同時鼓勵使用大眾交通運輸」。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "方案的部分，因為早上有同仁提到另外一個方案是純車重，因此我們這邊也加了「D」，因此等一下討論會有五種方案可以讓大家自由討論，並列出相關的優缺點，其實就可以做綜合性地評估。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來會分兩組的時間，因此等一下同仁會幫忙把大家的桌子合併，變成兩張大的大桌子，等一下分組的方式是如果您來自同一個單位，或者是類似的單位，請自己協調一下，然後拆成兩組，讓我們可以確保今天兩組角色的分配都有各種不同的背景的人可以參加。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "比如有同樣的單位，像剛剛的石油業者這邊（兩位），政府部門同一個單位有兩位以上的，請拆成兩邊，附議人也請拆一半。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "先請前面這一組幫我們分享一下討論的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "首先從公平性來講，本組評估公平性，不論是哪一個案子，都是從使用頻度、道路負荷程度這兩個criteria去想的。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "方案A是「維持現況」，不管實際用路狀況，一律付齊頭式平等的費用，比較類似其他先進會中提到的公益性大於公平性!" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "另外，就年度耗油量的值，本組有討論到徵收基準。交通部公式設定是以定額去乘以年度的耗油量，但是相關制定是在101年，跟現況差異滿大的!若要採維持現況(不改現有公式)又要兼具公平性，年度耗油量的數值是值得探討的，因此本組建議每一年都應該要討論一次。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "另外，排氣量跨級距的部分，以600cc作分級，車主實際上會考量到所付的規費或者是稅金哪一個比較多，跟實際的使用頻度及道路破壞狀況根本沒有關係，以cc數來作相關的分類是不公平的。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "在複雜度的部分，其實剛剛CARLINK的前輩也有提到方法相當單一、簡單，依當時的時空背景做這樣的設定，但現在看起來有些便宜行事。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "再來，我們看到「行政成本」部分，其實每一年大家繳完相關規費及稅金之後都會發現一個問題，12月31日交通部的網站又出現催繳訊息了。每一年催繳規費的發函，交通部都會做另外相關預算編列，這個是滿弔詭的地方，而且是用納稅人的錢，行政成本是很高的。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "相關產業的成本，基本上現在的制度是封頂的概念，不管是用多少都是繳一樣的費用，齊頭式平等是一票玩到底。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "法規不合時宜建議修改，這也是為什麼今天協作人在這裡討論，因為現況不合理，所以才會有這樣的附議。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "另外，本組提出其他考量點，包括道路使用費的徵收標準應重新計算，還有駕駛員工會提出相關收入的需求定位要明確；道路品質不佳之後續改善，維管費應區分道路性質...等。由於民眾沒有辦法辨識500億徵收完畢是如何分配給各地政府實際使用與支用，所以課徵的公平性會一再被檢證。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "方案B是「隨油徵收」，也就是附議人為何會在這裡，從使用的頻度來看，根據統計數據，2017年的電動車登錄台數是832台，保有台數也不多，所以大部分都是汽油車的情況之下，車主要上路一定要加油，基本上，這是現階段還沒有加諸其他科技配備的情況之下，最能反映上路的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "公平性而言，大家有提到的是，科技進步讓油耗表現越來越好，以及用油不代表用路的狀況，如果要講公平正義，可能會有這樣的疑慮。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "在複雜度的部分，我們組別有中油的代表表示，每一天進來加油的人很多，又拿很多不同的卡，在身分辨識上，對行政作業產生很高的複雜度。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "另外，剛剛講到有關於用油流用的問題，屬地下油行流竄疑慮，但請考量一點，現在真的有這麼多人去買劣質油去加自己的愛車? 現在車子都這麼貴，這是值得考量的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "有關於行政成本的部分，沒有使用道路漁船的部分，本來就有相關機制，因此不影響。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "汽油是以2.5元去乘以年度的耗油量，另外，柴油是1.5乘以年度耗油量，燃油科技進步，車輛油耗表現好，如果用油沒有那麼多，財源可能會短收。所以，官方試算時確實是個考量重點，畢竟官方實際規費收入500億，有其指標性質。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "另外，至於與推動電動車政策相矛盾，剛剛好像沒有講到，請同組組員補充一下。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "因為討論隨里程部分有一個討論，就是油電車、油汽車或純電動車要有另外配套的徵收方式，那應該是對應到另外的地方。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "運輸業成本提高的部分，坦白說，不論是隨油或者是隨里程，只要是符合真實使用道路情況用作規費課徵，他們的成本一定會增加，因業務所致，用路比一般的駕駛人多，因此成本會增加，無庸置疑。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "另外，中油的先進有提到，這邊相關的營業費用成本部分，以空污費的代收經驗，如果再加上隨油徵收的代收費用而加諸於營收，稅金要多繳納，可能導致公司虧損。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "建議遊覽車比照大眾運輸獲取相關的補助，這個給交通部後續的研議，對於平準物價的部分，可能要研議免徵的適用範疇。如果要朝這個方向走的話，可能會需要政策配套。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "其他考量點包括，建議空污費移除，我覺得並不是這個議題討論範疇，因此就不講了。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "大排氣量不等於車重，車廠追求油耗表現，車身有輕量化趨勢，是不是直接連結本案，這可能後續還要再討論。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "有關於遊覽車作為公共運輸才可以免徵，這個部分剛剛提過了，這裡就不多說。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "接著，看到方案C-1的部分，隨里程徵收及隨里程加重的部分，剛剛運研所的報告顯示，有很多的國際趨勢指出，各國為了財源穩定及真實反映用車狀況而改採隨里程徵收。不可否認這個可能是最終、最公平的方式，這兩個差異是C-2加了車重，讓道路實際破壞程度是可以被衡量的。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "如果以汽燃費徵收的目的來講，這個是最符合民眾所要求的公平正義。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "此外，政府已經制定2040車輛電動化目標，未來會有越來越多的電動化車型會導入市場，隨里程徵收適用所有車型，使用者付費無庸置疑。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "有關於複雜度的部分，本組剛剛討論了一個前提，在技術完全許可且成熟的情況下，隨里程徵收才可能普及。臺灣現在保有車輛有800萬台，現在可以試作最新科技的車輛數，的確是有限。另外，政府投入建置成本、車上裝機相關成本的負擔是相當龐大的，要做好萬全準備才能做。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "剛剛也有提到使用者成本的部分，針對貨運業者、遊覽車、租賃業、計程車相關的使用成本，當然會跟隨油一樣，一定是增加的。後面考量到車重，有可能對相關業者會是成本增加最多的狀況，政府需要考量配套用作平穩物價。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "有關於車上裝機計算總里程部分，剛剛有跟先進討論過，現在民眾會滿care一點，政府除了蒐集行駛里程之外，是不是更進一步蒐集行駛路徑，導致民眾到哪裡去全部被揭露，透露個人隱私。從車廠的立場來講，個資法的保護是唯一的依歸。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "個資法對個人保護相當嚴謹，車廠都嚴格遵守。除非國家因為徵收規費而明定法規，要求車廠協助釋出里程訊息，才可能有討論空間。而且車籍資訊解讀必須跟母廠溝通，如果沒有完善的法制規定或配套的話，難以協助取得。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "最後，方案D純車重的部分，跟現況比起來好像好一點，組員認為更有彈性，也更公平一點。大家所拿到的牌登書上有車重，或者像能源局在規範次期油耗標準的時候，也有明確的參重級距。民眾可以看到自己落在哪一個級距，可能range比較不會像現在600cc存在爭議，所以大家覺得這個彈性是比較有的。 純車重可從現狀調整計算因子即可，收費方式可能也跟現在類似，適用哪一個級距就是哪一個費率，也是相對簡單。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "最後，以上五種探討中的收費方式，應該都要有營業與自用的分類。" }, { "speaker": "Anna", "speech": "以上，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "同一組的同仁有想要再補充的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "好。那我們歡迎第二組。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "大家好，我代表我們這一組來說明一下我們剛剛討論的結果。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "主要討論起來有兩個最主要的共識：" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "第一，我們針對這個目前的汽車燃料費徵收方式，站在公益性的立場上，大家認為是需要付費的，這個是有完整的共識。但在現行的結構付費方式上，目前的現狀是以汽車排氣量的方式來作課徵的不同等級，政府有稅收的壓力，我們同時也必須要考量到各個不同行業別在生存上的一些必要性，所以主要兩個比較大的重點：第一個是我們認為這個費用的確是有徵收的必要，但是在徵收的方法上，可能未來可能以考慮變成一個基礎基本的費用，然後再加上依照每一個人不同使用的狀況來徵收的方式，這個是我們對於現行費用結構上的最主要建議，也是今天最主要的共識。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "其實有關於不同方案的評估來作一下說明，有關於維持現狀。有關於公平性的部分，基本上目前的稅制是以排氣量來徵收，這個部分不公平的問題在於，目前是有一些營業用車，他們是以公共利益為目的，所以不需要徵收，但是實際上以道路使用上來講的話，還是對於道路的路面有破壞、使用，因此這個是現行稅制上比較不公平的地方。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "另外，以現狀來看，因為目前是以這個方式來徵收，因此以複雜度來講，因為不需要讓人民適用新方法，所以相對來講使用成本比較低，但是以目前法規的方式，看起來公式上有一點複雜，這個是我們提到的考量點。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "有關於各個成本的部分來講，不管是行政成本或者是產業成本，或者是使用成本，因為不用變動，所以成本是比較低的，但是大家有一個很大的意見是有關於目前的徵收標準，剛剛提到是用目前的排氣量來分，標準是比較過時的，在下面有建議了一些可能可以的徵收方式，好比像用馬力、車重的方式去作計算，以這個方案來講，我們並不是完全贊同現在用排氣量來徵收，如果要有一個固定的費用，其計算基礎可能要考量是以馬力、車重等等的形式去改，我們也認為目前600cc級距的方向不那麼適合；同時，我們也贊同今天交通部的意見，原本是道路維管費要改成道路使用費。這個是第一個方案的意見。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "第二，有關於隨油徵收的部分，最主要的問題在於我們認為電動車會因為這樣子而收不到，所以會因為電動車而需要專法的方式去做徵收，又或者是另訂徵收的規範。但是以隨油徵收來說的話，是符合使用者付費的原則，因此在這一個觀點上，這其實是公平的。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "以隨油徵收來講是每一台車子油耗不一樣，因此單純用油來作徵收的方式，可能也不完全地公平，這是特別需要考量的地方。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "有關於隨油徵收的部分，剛剛有提到一點，油的流用性還是一個問題，有些人買油並不是用在道路上，可能是用在農業、機械等等的各種油，可能因為這樣子，所以不容易辨識買油的目的是不是用在車上，以這樣的狀況來說，在收費上可能也會有一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "另外，有提到一點是如果今天採用隨油徵收，可能是由加油站這邊來幫忙徵收費用，在加油站的立場，如果真的要採這個方案的話，可能要特別考量加油站是特別代徵這個費用，要從現在的財務結構裡面特別釐清出來，未來可能客人、民眾在購買油品的時候，收的金額中哪裡是真正油的錢、哪裡是稅的錢，這些結構都要很清楚，避免額外的稅被徵收了。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "另外，我們也有一個共識是，如果加油站業者未來要代收油費的話，我們認為要適度給予手續費，這個是合理的。這個是針對隨油徵收的方案。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "方案C-1跟C-2一個是隨里程徵收，另外一個是考量車重的因素，有一些比較類似的，基本上以公平性來說的話，大部分的人認為隨里程徵收基本上是比較公平的，就如同剛剛所說，在車輛收費上而言，是設定一個基本費用，然後上面再加上依照里程不同而有計費，這樣的計費方式比較合適。以隨里程徵收跟考量車重兩個相比的話，單純里程徵收沒有考量車重，因此可能就沒有那麼公平。里程徵收這邊還有提到另外一點，也就是高速公路的部分，高速公路有另外一個費用，未來如果可以全部變成里程徵收的話，其實高速公路的里程也會被紀錄在裡面，因此不同的道路上有不同分級的費率或稅率，又或者是要有相對應的方法去區分高速公路跟一般道路行駛上的差異。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "隨里程這邊最主要的問題點在於里程的可信度，我們怎麼樣能夠確保所有人都可以抓到準確的里程，大家有提非常多的意見，像交通部這邊也研議了很多里程徵收的方法與技術，未來我們這邊的建議是，各種技術都可以，應該要由政府這邊出來訂定一個標準，讓大家或者是各個廠商、產業界所有人都有機會，只要能夠做出符合標準的東西，就可以成為這樣的設備廠商，因為大家對於現行的高速公路遠通收費方式，看起來覺得有許多不恰當的地方，因此希望改成由政府來設定業界標準，只要廠商符合標準，就可以進到遊戲來玩。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "接著是考量到老車的部分，不管是OBD或者是很多技術，現在可能新車都會有，老車會沒有，所以未來在這個制度的設計上可能要特別考量到這一些老車，該怎麼樣有一些好的方案，讓他們想要採隨里程徵收，也可以適用這樣的做法。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "另外，在建置的成本上，目前車上沒有這樣的裝置，所以這一些車輛如果在初期要建置這一些裝置的話，可能會有相對應初期的成本需要提高，可能政府這邊要思考如何把裝置的建置成本考量進去。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "有一個正面的意見是，如果做里程徵收這樣的做法上，當政府有一個公開的標準，也可以促進臺灣在這產業上的發展，這個是屬於正向的意見。其他的還有考慮到未來是採用OBD，也就是在車上抓取車輛里程的話，可能有一些在偏鄉的環境上，要特別去考量到是不是可以在比較偏遠的地方也能夠讓他的里程傳回來，讓他依照這樣的方式去做里程計費。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "最後還有提到一點，以目前里程收費的方式，有些國家還在很初期的階段，臺灣這邊未來如果要導入這樣的做法，可能初期可以採用雙軌併行的方式，可以讓民眾自由選擇要採用現行的方式或者是可以選擇加入里程計價的方式，政府如果未來要做整個政策上的變動、計價方式的變動，應該也要考量到產業的合適性，要訂定足夠的時限，讓產業有足夠的時間去作落日、分階段地導入，並不是一個時間就到位。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "最後，針對里程加車重有多作討論，幾位先進有提到日本的稅制，發現日本跟臺灣有一些滿接近的，但是主要的地方是，他們針對在車輛的部分有所謂的重量稅，而這個重量稅是根據車子本身的重量去課徵，這個像一開始提到的，每一台車輛在購置的時候，除了原本一開始的貨物稅、牌照稅之外，汽燃費的部分，也可以改成以重量課徵的重量稅，再加上里程使用的里程使用費，兩個結合起來，變成未來新的道路使用費之概念。" }, { "speaker": "楊家豪", "speech": "以上是我們這一組的討論方向，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請問第二組有朋友想要再補充的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就這邊小組報告結束，讓唐鳳政委來說幾句話，不過說幾句話之前，因為leg的關係，他們晚5至10秒鐘才會切過來，稍微等一下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "sli.do上其實剛剛看到有人提到一件事，提到無人車，其實今天在立法院已經通過了，也許未來這個情況也要考慮無人車的狀況，這個部分也要補充給大家參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常謝謝大家過來，也非常感謝我們現在在社創會場，包含各地的加油站商業公會的所有人士，剛剛已經一一換過名片、有關心這個議題的民眾，還有很辛苦中經院研究的團隊，我們在這邊從頭到尾都有參加討論，也有一些意見，我們透過sli.do的方法跟大家分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先講一下，這一次的討論接下來會發生三件事情：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，週末的時候，團隊會把大家討論這一些綜整的概念，包含剛剛講改以重量計費，或者是以里程的等技術成熟之後實際使用的想法，我們會綜整成給院長的報告，我會在下個禮拜一的時候，跟院長、其他政務委員或者是院長、副秘書長分享，他們如果對方向有明確裁示的話，就會第一時間讓所有開放政府聯絡人，也就是各部會的朋友們一次知道這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，主辦的部會其實之後會在連署平台上，也就是「Join」平台上一次把我們這一次所討論的脈絡，包含大家辛苦講一整天下來的綜整出來意見，都分享給所有的附議人，我們也希望附議人能夠在看到不管是逐字稿、綜整議題手冊等等的時候，也可以給我們一些批評指教，就像總統最近講的「所謂政治就是給答案」，這一件事討論非常久了，有沒有覺得這個階段做到什麼樣的答案給大家，這個是相關的部會會進行綜整回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，這一件事不管要做任何調整，即使改一個名稱，聽起來大家覺得對改名稱沒有問題，還是要回到立法院，並不是行政院自己表示立場就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此第三件事是這個立場確定之後，不管是執政黨團或者是其他黨團的委員們，如果對這一件事之前有表示過興趣的話，也讓委員們知道行政院經過這樣的討論有這樣的初步想法，這樣的題目在立法院出現的時候，就可以從今天討論的情況，繼續往下討論，就不會好像每一次討論都回到本來的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝今天大家對於立法、行政品質的推進。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "立法院其實也是有在動的，剛剛主持人也有提到，今天他們剛三讀通過無人載具條例。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "無人機、無人船，沒有用到路，所以無所謂，但是無人車的部分，據說今天立法院三讀通過的版本，會強制一定要裝行車紀錄器，來避免糾紛。這個給我們雙軌併行的時候，至少無人車可以試行，也就是中經院在研究的、里程計費的可能性。大家都有第一手的瞭解之後，我們未來在電動車等等的時代，就比較可以變成像剛剛大家講的：並不是只有一家廠商來做，而是大家都瞭解這個運作的規則，大家都能公平的，甚至是可以在互相競爭的開放市場裡面，去讓這樣的行業能夠興起。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於現有的做法，在盡可能減少行政成本的情況之下，按照大家的討論結果，我會跟院長進行討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝今天大家貢獻、也非常感謝社創這邊的各位朋友的貢獻，今天會議到這邊，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "This radical transparency principle, I think it’s super. I really like it, because in Australia, it’s not like that. It causes a lot of mistrust, because things happen, and you never know quite why and how. I mean, ICT, it’s so opaque that a lot of wrong decisions are made. You just don’t even know how and why. I think the greater transparency, the better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome, good." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Totally good with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Glad you’re good with that. How many days are you in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "In Taiwan, four. I’m here, at the moment, for the health tech forum and the expo. I came, as you know, in July for the Digital Innovation Forum and I just thought that Taiwan was such an interesting place. I didn’t have any time to explore, apart for two hours, and I got the opportunity to come back, obviously." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I just thought that from a business perspective, that it seems, and I might be wrong here, but I get the very strong impression that there’s an opportunity for a collaborative platform, which is what I do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so. Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I thought that the people are really kind, as opposed to some countries you go to and you just don’t feel any simpatico. That, to me, is key. I just thought it was a really beautiful city because of all the different influences." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "All of those things meant that I thought this time I come, I’m not leaving until Tuesday afternoon. I have some time after the conference to just get more of the vibe of the place. Last time, I went to the old tobacco factory and a couple of art things, but two hours. I thought that if I came back, I could actually meet people and see if my instinct was right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You were key to that because the way that you talk, as I read it anyway, sounds like you are looking for social exercises that are going to make the lives of people who have got issues, be they health -- there’s a hell of a lot of health ones -- better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I am involved with doing that in Australia. Disabled people, indigenous people, chronic disease." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh yeah. Definitely. I just came from the indigenous elders." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Oh, did you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. In Taitung." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "If it’s like Australia, not good. They don’t have a fair treatment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s room for improvement..." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I saw something which you think, \"Why would I be interested in this, in the expo?\" It was someone in Taiwan has developed this cream. I hope it’s not snake oil and it actually works." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "There was a picture of a person with a five-centimeter abscess in their foot. Obviously, a diabetic patient. If the thing was allowed to go on, like it does in Australia, their foot gets cut off. You’ve got 30-year-olds having their feet cut off in Australia. It’s a first-world country." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "This cream, after five weeks, heals the abscess over so it’s just a scar. That’s in the expo. It’s actually an impressive expo. [laughs] I’m thinking, we’ve got all this problem happening in Australia." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "My technology goes up to the indigenous people. It’s used in a big pantec van. They use it to share information from eye imaging for diabetics. That thing goes to the ophthalmologist in Sydney University who grades it. It doesn’t just go point to point." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s on a platform that allows the patient then to see it and his providers or her providers in Palm Island or far, remote communities which otherwise, they don’t travel. They don’t want to travel. They don’t want to leave their home country. They don’t feel supported, so they stay up there with diabetes and either go blind or have an amputation." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s all so easily avoidable. Using technology for that, that’s something we do voluntarily. We provide the platform. They use this and go around to all of these communities. I think it’s wonderful. It saved lives." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You can afford to do some of that. You have to sometimes cover your costs. That’s our company philosophy. We do what we can, and most people take the pay cut. I try not to take any path I can, so you can do these things." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s the whole point, isn’t it, to do that. I like the way that you talked about it. I thought that sounded good. I thought if I was able to come up with a community, I’m sure there’s plenty of community problems, like you saw the elders today. Say, \"OK, what would fix that? Is it something we could fix?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what we’re working on. When I was with the elders, I actually did a presentation and talk. I was virtually visiting Adelaide. Did I pronounce that right?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, yes. Good. Adelaide’s good." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "My city. [laughs] That’s where I come from." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Technically, it’s a little hot spot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. They’re, of course, charged with the entire south and also covering the long-distance telemedicine and things like that. This year, we’ve started qualifying the telemedicine diagnostics and so on. Previously, it has to be over-the-counter or face-to-face and so on, but it’s all relaxed as of this year." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s so good. The doctor gets paid even it’s through the internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. We have a pretty good single-payer system. The indigenous people, they all pay. The service they got from the doctors who were willing to travel to them is, on a per capita basis, is not sufficient coverage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We really need to, if there’s doctors willing to travel all the way. Currently they have to have four kilogram or more of equipment and things like that. We’re going to massively simplify the experience." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using telemedicine." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The thing, as I see it, for telemedicine, because we’ve been doing that a while in Australia, and you should learn a little bit from us as far as the pain. Quite a few of the doctors gamed it. That was really disappointing. They gamed it." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "What Australian government did was to...you probably do it better from the start or not, but it happened in Australia. They said, \"For the first 12 telehealth consults that you do, you get paid for specialist.\" Quite a lot of money. Let’s say $1,000. I think it was 1,000. They got $1,000 for telehealth consult." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "They didn’t have to prove anything, except that they had contact. They’re contacting their friends." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That was very, very disappointing. It didn’t have any good impact, obviously. They’ve tightened it up, but then they go the other way and tightened it too much. It’s a bit disappointing." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Where telehealth is great is obviously covering the distance, but where I can help that is that if you’re sitting as an endocrinologist looking at someone with diabetes, you’re in, say, Perth. The person is in Mulloon or in the desert. I’m sorry, I use Australia because I don’t know all your places." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine. It’s good. It’s good. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "OK. Perth’s four hours flight from Mulloon or in the desert. You’re the specialist sitting in Perth. You’re looking at the person, who’s sitting there with a GP. You’re going, \"OK, well, that looks OK.\" Then, you look at your record and you start going, \"OK, well, I think this is where I see the patient, from last time. They were on this and that.\"" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The GP’s record’s quite different. You’re both working on different systems. There’s no unified platform where the patient and their caretaker, such as your mom or something like that, can actually go and say, \"Well, this is where mom was last time.\" They can all look at it together and say, \"Look, her steps should be different. She should change medication. She should change diet. She needs to have a diabetes educator.\"" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "If that’s all in one platform, the patient and or their caretaker can control. Everyone can see that they consent to. You save not only time, but also you get better health outcomes, much cheaper because people hate duplicating." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Faxing a copy of my computer record? Hello?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s what happens. That’s the problem. We’re there to make, not only that possible by letting them share. We have an open API, obviously. No one is that keen on FHIR in our client record, but we’ve got ready to go. It’s a SMART on FHIR app." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, FHIR." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah. Graham Grieve is a friend of mine. We’re trying to get the Argonaut’s FHIR project off in Melbourne, and in Australia, sorry. I’m just writing a thing. This is a side project, but this is for the health industry. I’m trying to do a separate proposal for us to try and get all of our members supporting it and to get the government more on side, just get all the forces aligned. That will make businesses like mine much more efficient." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, very much so. We’re building a similar ecosystem also based around FHIR." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Good. Do you have the Argonaut’s SMART on FHIR app?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, it is starting with remote islands because we already have good cases for them. When we use helicopter and so on, it’s very expensive, and also it takes trust out of GPs. It’s a very clear thing. We already piloted starting last year actually. It’s pretty good signature from the experience that we got." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The signals that we got is we should expand first to the elders in the First Nations, in the indigenous because, as I said, per capita coverage is different. Also, the GPs there may actually be of their tribe. We want to encourage more people getting medical training and returning to their homeland. That’s doubly true for indigenous people, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just visited a tribe that does not just GPs, but actually with the water energy, solar energy, everything is self-sufficient. They’re now actually looking to expand their model to more tribes of their kin. It would be seen more as appropriate technology if all the GPs are their people and they know how to own the technology." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "To trust." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is why open API and things like that are so important because otherwise, it’s another colonizing technology." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "No. Can’t have that. The philosophy behind what I do in my company is that you got to let people use what they’re using and they’re comfortable with. Sometimes that might be with an old supplier, like a GP who’s 65 or something. They’ve got all the specialists more like." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "\"I never want to use the computer.\" What do you do about those guys?" }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "They’re not going to change, and they still want to practice, and they can’t trust it. We let them upload their paper into our system. Not ideal, because it’s not itemized, but it’s better than nothing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It still allows them to work with the project, rather than saying, \"No, you’ve got to be on a computer or you’re out.\"" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The philosophy is we want itemized, structured data, but we’ll take what’s around. In Australia, there’s a lot of hospitals that still have paper too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "There’s a lot of small clinicians, like Allied Health, that don’t even have a clinical system. With us, they can actually upload, as long as they’ve got Internet. In the desert sometimes, there’s ADSL, too, like really slow but it works." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "They can actually use our system to put their notes in digitally as well. Rather than paper, they can do it directly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "As well as if they want to go from system-to-system is better, but they can do it directly. We don’t do billing, because all the systems we interact with do billing..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "...and we don’t need to do prescribing, because they upload that into our system." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It allows everyone to use the system they like, so the hospital continues to use Cerner or Epic. The GPs use their bit, the specialists. Everyone uses their thing. They keep it on their system, but they upload the bits that’s relevant for me as a diabetic to have, and for the rest of my providers." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s really like it’s autonomy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s great. It’s full, the data agency thing. It actually knows where things go." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Exactly. I kind of laughed when I read your thing about transparency. I think my title today was the beauty of transparency and health. That’s autonomy. It’s for procurement." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Governments, the way that they procure whole things, it’s always...Well, I shouldn’t say that. But it’s often not great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can totally say that." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I think I said it in the hall today, anyway, didn’t I?" }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "So I’ve said it." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "And the patients, for them to be able to see exactly what’s going on. If they’re not happy, it’s not that terrible sense of, \"Oh, I can’t move, because he’s got all my data.\" You have your data. As long as you’ve got Internet, you have your data. You have control over who can access it." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s powerful. That means also in the final bit...Do you know about OpenEHR?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OpenEHR?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Open E-H-R?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Open A-H-R, mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "About 20 years ago in the UK -- this would interest you..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "...I decided that healthy is an international language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, E-H-R?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, EHR." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "We have an OpenEHR template server inside our technology. We’re not totally an OpenEHR shop, so we’re a shared platform, and we have a template server that allows the different clinicians to create their own templates if they don’t like the ones we already have." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You’ve got for your first people, for example, they might have a particular problem with Kawasaki disease, that you want a special template. The clinician, within half an hour of being trained, can actually create a template, and upload it into our system, without having to come back to us and go, \"What’s the spare? How much will it cost? How long will it take?\" All the usual software stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "They can do it themselves. Which means they love it. They’re not being shoehorned into something." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s the philosophy -- transparent, flexible, autonomy. Atomized structured data means that they can, with consent of the patient, have a really good reporting backend. You can actually do a population and risk analysis as well." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You might go, \"Yeah, we can do that anyway.\" But you can’t do that from all the different systems based in one database like ours." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You might do risk analysis based on the hospital data, but with our system, it’ll be holistic. You’ll have it from Allied Health, from the patient’s carer, from maybe non-health services that are saying, \"Emma’s having psychotic reactions.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Prevention or community action." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "\"She’s not able to get to her appointments because her transport doesn’t turn up.\" All of that stuff would come in. You can then go, \"Well, that one looks great. That matrix overall would stem here.\" You actually have really good reporting information for research, only where there’s consent, though." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Some people just don’t want it. Other people go, \"Fantastic, you’re doing research on breast cancer. My mom died. I’ll give you everything.\" It’s all very granular, but that means it’s 21st century, as opposed to the usual doctor kind of guidance, how you’re doing it and eye on it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s what I’ve been doing for 10 years." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "In Australia only. Asia has always frightened me a little bit. IP wise, I was frightened of China, when we had things like that. My experience in India, that would be fantastic. I worked a little bit the George Global Institute for Health in Sidney. We’ve done a trial there." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Also, with Monash University, we did a really interesting AIDS trial. People who have had AIDS and got chronic disease as a result. They got all of these multiple chronic disabilities and they need to manage them, so they use our system to manage that." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Other interesting ones, I talked about the isle ones, really in remote communities, where they want to use services that aren’t in the city. Not necessarily indigenous people, but just regional people. They’ve got very few specialists, for example. They can use our system to cover that." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "When they need to go to a hospital in the city, already that hospital will have their information." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It sometimes means that the hospital can go, \"Actually, she doesn’t need to come. That marker looks great. We can just prescribe online medication that she has it.\" They save all that transport and loss of productivity and disruption to people. There’re many different cases. Disabilities is a big one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Disabled people are..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, in Taiwan, they now form groups like supports, but also community care groups." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I love that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are just now working on the co-op laws to make sure that there could be a multifaceted co-op, so that even the caretakers or care workers, they can form a kind of workers’ co-op. That doesn’t have to go through the usual company profit distribution models and can be democratic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s especially strong in indigenous places, of course, because it fits with their tribal assembly, which naturally is democratic and not at all shareholder driven. That model, actually they really do have a lot of young people, who are tech savvy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They want some help from the government to make sure that they’re treated equally with for profit companies, even though they’re just dedicated to support a certain disability group or a certain long-term care group or a certain community. That’s one of the big things I’m working on." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s interesting. We’ve got a system that’s not working awfully well called NDIS, National Disability Insurance Scheme." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "Which is a disgrace actually." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, it’s a disgrace. It is a disgrace. We won’t go there, but it’s a good learning exercise. If you just Google that one, then go, \"Let’s not do that.\" There’s too many of those, isn’t there? In health, it’s a tragedy." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The point being that they tried to do the right thing. The intention was good. They said, \"OK. Disabled people at the moment that we’re giving, let’s say, $10,000 to a group that would accompany or a not-for-profit that would help them manage themselves. That company basically didn’t report, didn’t keep records." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "There was a lot of rip-offs, there was a lot of people being done in the eye. Some of them did really well, but what the NDIS wanted to do was to give the disabled person or their carer the ability to pick and choose what they use." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That was a good intention, so you’re not trapped into a company that’s screwing you. The trouble is that it’s so complicated for them to have to work the case. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To navigate, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "There has been a disaster, and then these whole new businesses have spawn, grown up that basically like middlemen and take their money anyway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Around their legal services." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, that’s right. Correct." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m using the neutral word, but Wikipedia is less kind. [laughs]. I see, I see." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s right. You can say they’re carpetbaggers. It’s not worked well, but that’s what we have technology for. To help you with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It could be done better." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It can be done a lot better. Do you have payment for the people in the tribes who want to look...They’ll get paid without being a certified disabilities carer or..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not at the moment, we’re at a planning stage." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That would be good, too, because you need a business case to make these things work. Ultimately in health -- I didn’t realize for a few years -- they do have to make a living, obviously, but also there’s a lot of following the money with the way the providers work." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Unless they can see that there’s going to be a government rebate for them when they give the service or anything like that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if it’s a co-op or a social enterprise, they still have to be sustainable economically." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s got to be sustainable. Really that’s what I do, and I don’t know what opportunities there are specifically, but..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s quite a few that I can think of. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It doesn’t have to, also, if they just want it. If they’re compatible groups, they can share a platform. If they are not compatible, and they don’t have similar providers, then they should have their own, let’s call it the disability in A, B, C county, but they may well be..." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I had one in West Australia that was originally for aged care, and then it worked really well, and I realized that I love the people, and aged care used the diabetes service as well. We let them join in, and then we had the Asthma Foundation join in, and I then in West Australia joined in." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "All quite different, and we just said to the West Australian Government, \"Well, that’s fine. There’s not more money, but the more people you get the better, ’cause it works better.\" It’s collaborative, and it’s organic the way it’s growing, because it shows that it’s working, so that’s the philosophy." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The only kind of real premise I -- after all this time -- like to make sure that there’s sufficient sustainability and just sufficient money on implementation, because otherwise technology’s...It should be probably 20 percent of finance to technology, 80 percent implementation and change management. That’s just I hate seeing things fail." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Otherwise it’s quite heartbreaking. That’s my only must do. I’d love to show you one day, if I can do a demonstration for you, and we can do it online." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We could do it online. If you have a YouTube video or something, we can attach it to this transcript so that people are reading it." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Absolutely, they would see it. Like I said, that would be great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can see it. What we’ll do, usually after meetings like this, is that the people who have already talked with me in my office hour, like the home care group, the First Nations and so on..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They know that we’re starting a pilot, as I’ve said, on people who are GPs who travel basically and using a Bluetooth IC card reader that massively simplifies the data entry issue and try to get some indigenous places or remote places into getting the habit of being FHIR compatible, and that’s our goal starting I think next year." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many pilots starting at once, and so they are of course free to choose the technologies. That will be provided for the reference of course. As the vendors they’re all very keen on getting the network effect right. Even though there’s multiple pilots at once, there will be a strong incentive if they can meaningfully share data while providing autonomy, of course, to the people." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Otherwise it’s the duplication, the mistakes, and people don’t have time to do it. Let’s do that, and you can absolutely then connect it to the transcript. I regard it as a commercial conference, so it’s not really, because it’s what we do. If anyone wants to copy it, then they’ll take a very long time..." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "And good luck there. You can copy something, but if you don’t really understand it, and don’t have the experience that we have, it’s not much use. I’m very open to that and I think it’s good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A lot of it is trust, right?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, of course. Absolutely." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you put 10 years into it, you get a lot of trust." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’d be super. I’d absolutely love to do that. It’s probably best if I do it when I get back to Australia. If you’ve got time end of next week or something, and if you have 45 minutes or an hour and have questions. Just run through how it worked technically so we can see it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, right. Do you have some materials like a demo account or something like that?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I have a got a test that I’ll give you, but not until I do the demo on the basis that I like people to understand first what it is, and then I can give you our test." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is there a demo video that I can watch?" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, there is. Yeah, yeah. That’s on Silverlight or whatever, but I’ll send you the links. That’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, please do, please do." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It shows you how we make the archetypes. I don’t think it runs through absolutely everything, but it’s pretty good. I mean it’s not one of the jazzy ones with people on the beach and all that. It’s actually my senior architect at a conference talking to techs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, I find people on the beach is kind of distracting..." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, I do, too. We had a few of those today, didn’t we, those videos?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s good if you only have two minutes, but for 40 minutes maybe not." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "No, no, it’s just bare." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It has to be short in its weight." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It was to describe to a mixed group, some very technical, very not technical, the different types of shared records, why you have a platform like ours, showing you how you extract the data, upload it, and create archetypes, so you get a good sense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, it’s good." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s a good base, and then we can give you, if you’re interested after you have a look at it actually working, because we’ve...Since that video, that’s probably about four years old, we’ve rebranded, we’ve done a lot more, so it’s quite different, but the principle’s the same." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The architecture is the same." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The fundamental architecture’s the same. Subsequently they’ve moved on our few different platforms, but it’s...Yeah, you’ll get a..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s good. I write software for architecture textbooks, [laughs] so I care about the architecture." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, you’ll get that. You’ll see the architecture, and you’ll understand why we will have obviously moved on, so that’s good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, and then after that, I’ll hit you back with questions, and maybe we have a Q&A session." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Beautiful, perfect, so I’ll send you that. Do you want me to send you that and give you sometimes as well?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, sure, sure, and also if that is a public demo, like if it’s on YouTube or something, then we just attach it to the transcript so people who are interested in next year’s pilot, they can also go through. If they have questions, they either bring it to me so I could forward to your team or they just join the Skype call or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Whatever they’re more comfortable with. Yeah, for sure. Perfect. That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, maybe give me a week or two, and then we’ll set up a video call." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That makes sense, so I’ll send you the stuff through when I get back or earlier, and then we’ll set up a week or something when you’ve got some time. Beautiful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I think this is great. This is great." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "What are the islands like off Taiwan? How are they? Are they..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s 16 nations. 15 on the Taiwan island, and one on another offshore island. They vary a lot. There are very sophisticated and large nations like the Amis, so much so that actually I have a gift for you. Sorry, just a second." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s interesting. I haven’t thought of First..." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "Maybe go to see an island." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, absolutely. I haven’t thought of First Nations, of course. And why would they not be First Nations?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is our open government training material, which is a gift for you." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Thank you very much. That’s appreciated." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I just want to highlight that in addition of publishing in English and Chinese and Taiwanese Hakka and Holo, we also publish in indigenous Amis, and that’s partly because our spokesperson of the administration is Amis, and we want to honor her people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With time, of course, all this is free of copyright, so it will be translated into other 15 indigenous languages. The situation has really changed in the past couple of years, ever since our president -- herself I think is one eighth Taiwan Nation also -- formally apologized and promised transitional justice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot more sovereignty in the Tribal Assemblies now, and also the Nations now, I think later this year, will get the right of educating, the material, like teaching calculus or astronomy or whatever using their culture and first languages." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re moving very quickly into these, the West sides do mostly English and ethnic Han, but the East side is 16 very different cultures." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Gosh, that’s wonderful, isn’t it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, it is. It is and requires lots of assistive machine learning and technologies. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Must be." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "This looks a little bit like pidgin to me, because I got married in Papua New Guinea, and my husband’s first language was pidgin. This looks a little bit like that, looks a lot easier than Chinese." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the Austronesian languages share a common root. It all starts in Taiwan somewhere." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s amazing. How old are those cultures?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’ve sailed out of Taiwan around 5,000-4,000 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Oh, my God." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and of course they’re around a bit longer. We don’t know exactly the year, but I think 10,000 something, like 7,000. Culturally, like the plants they use, they cultivate, spread from Madagascar to the Maori, so the language and culture spread even wider than the people, but the people already spreads pretty wide from Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "And they tend to stay there, or the children come and want to live in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Maori people do visit, [laughs] but I think to pay homage mostly to their ancestors’ spirits. It’s different cultures now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "But now, even when we sign a trade agreement with New Zealand, the ANZTEC, there is a parallel track between our First Nations and Maori, and that has a separate track of diplomacy as well. It’s very interesting." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s extraordinary. I had no idea, this is super interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it’s very, very interesting." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You guys are way ahead of us in that side with our indigenous, aren’t you? We’re getting there." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "I have to agree with this one unfortunately." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "I’ve been telling you about the problems of people getting their arthritis at 30. You’re telling me about this very sophisticated language policy. Hopefully we can exchange on different things and do it a bit better." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs] Yeah, we’d love to, we’d love to." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having the time today, and I love the sound of what you’re doing, and I’d be really happy to share what we do and see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’ll send you a link to our government digital service guidelines, the GDSG, which covers the user first autonomy, open by default, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s currently in beta, we just published it, so for the next year, if you see any part of it that you think maybe the translation is off, but... [laughs] That’s one part, but even the spirit you think could be better, and think could be better, please let us because it will be finalized a year after this and it would then apply to all the procurements..." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s great. Your timing is very good because just on the way here...The government in Australia changes all the time, as you know, but they released ICT procurements guidelines, which I was involved with in the health industry, but it was multi-vertical." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It was telcos, banks, everyone involved. I was involved with that last year. We put in a submission. Surprisingly enough, all of the different disciplines had the same issues. The telcos had the same issue. The banks had the same issues as the engineers. It’s all in tick, but we all had the same problems." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "We had the ICT Procurement Task Force listening to the roundtables. Then, we put in submissions. Then, the government responded. I can send you the link if you are interested." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I’m very interested." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "OK. Now, what’s happened? I think because the Digital Transformation Agency in Australia had three CEO recently. I’ve lost track of where it’s all got to. The government came back to them and said, \"We agree with these fundamentally 10 recommendations on ICT.\"" }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "They agreed with it, which was really good news, but nothing happened. That was a year ago. That’s because of all the churn in the government and the agency. It just came out, I just saw it today, they want comments now on how they can implement it by the 18th of December." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "From our industry point of view is probably the biggest issue because you get bad IT because people procuring it don’t understand it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "They haven’t got no idea. They go back into what they think would be the best or safest mode, which is, \"Let’s get Accenture, IBM, blah, blah, blah.\" I’m not saying they’re bad companies, but they’re usually just providing whatever is convenient for them to give that they used 10 years ago or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The bureaucrat, because they don’t understand the technology, is scared, so they were risk averse. They go with these old technologies. They alienate all of the innovation and all these people who put in investment into things that are new and cutting edge and would actually do it more efficiently." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s incredibly frustrating. They then find the project fails, but because they chose the supplier, they bury it. Instead of it being transparent and there being a case study on, \"My God, why did we waste $2 billion on that pile of rubbish,\" they bury it. They try not to let anyone know what happened because it looks bad for them." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The cause of the lack of transparency, it just goes on and on and on. It’s terrible for technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I totally agree. This coming book describe one case, the national income tax filing systems failure..." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah. This would be easier for me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. It’s not quite dramatic or catastrophic, but it does cause a lot of backlash. Last May, when people find that they can’t really file income taxes on Mac and Linux because they used Java applets and things like that. Exactly as you’ve said because Java applets were hip when this was first designed." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People expect. Occasion have arisen, and they have not kept up with times. Procurement only cares about the box ticking. It doesn’t care about user centric design. There’s even no word for user centric design." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "No outcome, it’s actually the box ticking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It must be because we got everyone registered, but do they use it? No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right. We’re totally changing that." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s so good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The GDSG is the result of these pilots. People generally thought it’s a good idea, so we have a political mandate." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You can send me the link to the draft because that would time very well to the work that we’re doing in our software industry. I’m going to have to get our skates on because that’s due on the 18th and I called the members to come back. I’ll show it to you." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "You get the vibe very quickly and it’s really nice. It’s quite succinct, the response the government gave. It’s quite succinct and it’s pretty amazing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome. Yeah, let’s keep in touch." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, for sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s keep in touch, for sure." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Lovely. Did I give you a card?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Did I or not? Probably not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think I have a card as well." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "There’s a lot of similarities." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "Surprisingly, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "There we are. Thank you so much, Audrey. That’s lovely. There we are. It’s so nice that you’re digital minister for all different disciplines, yeah?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "That’s so good. That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For all the 17 sustainable values." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "Every time we come, there’s always a T-shirt of all of the things she’s doing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "We have Digital Transformation Agency, but none of the departments really know how to interact with it. They do their own things still. It’s quite hard, but you do it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We start with values and outcomes and then work the way backwards. I think that’s the way to do it." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "The departments are quite happy to work with you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My office is literally one person poached from each ministry. Technically, I can have 34 staff, but now I’ve 22. 22 is a lot." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Yeah, that’s good because they just recruit externally and then everyone doesn’t trust them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Gee, maybe we should advise them what you do." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "It’s such a pity because it’s a good idea of having all of government digital, or else everyone does the identification differently and all the stuff’s wrong. Anyway, really nice speaking to you about it. Take care." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you. Very nice seeing you." }, { "speaker": "Eliza Chui", "speech": "Good to you see you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very good to see you. Cheers." }, { "speaker": "Emma Hossack", "speech": "Cheers." } ]

[ { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "請問您選的年度關鍵字是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "2019年我選的關鍵字是「萌」，這個字其實就是從地上草木初生發芽的意思，這個就呼應到明年「地方創生」這樣的行動方案，不只是在大的城市，我們也希望所有的臺灣，好比像5萬人、10萬人等等有地方特色的地方，我們希望大家回流，回流之後在這個地方發展出自己的生態系，然後也讓在地的這個故事能夠被全臺灣、甚至全世界都能夠看見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣子的地方創生，需要非常多的社會創新，甚至法規的、科技的創新。好比像用無人載具去載貨，就是很多在這些地方的朋友告訴我們說滿有幫助的，所以各種各樣的應用都會因此而萌生，也這是「萌」的另外一個意思。" }, { "speaker": "記者", "speech": "第二，您怎麼看明年的經濟或者是整個未來趨勢的發展？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在今年年底，我們很高興立法院三讀通過了《無人載具創新實驗條例》，這個也告訴我們明年也會是無人載具的元年。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像剛才提過的，無人載具的空中載貨，或者是無人車從先像沙崙這樣的測試場域，再慢慢到大家你、我的生活當中開放的部分去試行，又甚至是無人船去解決離島最後一哩運輸這樣的問題，我們都會在明年看到非常多的實驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這些開始出現，也讓大家更進一步瞭解AI跟我們的群眾智慧CI，這兩個怎麼互相加在一起、怎麼變成延伸式的智慧。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們準時開始。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很高興每個月見到大家，也很高興這一次在雙會場，討論「道路維護管理費」（「汽燃費」）的案子，感謝交通部與所有有參加籌備、相關小桌長的努力，在完全沒有任何衝突的氣氛之下，完成協作會議，剛才致翔已經有把在政務會議在今天早上把大家討論的結果，有跟大家進行說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們從公平性、複雜度、行政產業及使用者成本進行討論，尤其是考量電動車發展的因素，最後政務會議覺得「隨車徵收」是較能兼顧各層面的方向，因此請交通部依此對外說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「隨車徵收」不一定要按照現在的公式來徵收。我們在協作會議討論很多，像納入行駛里程、車輛總重等等的這些可行性，交通部本來就有研究案，請繼續依期程來辦理。至於其他難以充分顧及這一些產業趨勢的做法，對外闡述的時候請不要當作政策主軸，以免模糊焦點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，交通部也提到「道路維護管理費」，各方都可以接受這個名字，因此可以減低誤解。這必須透過修法才能實現，因此希望之後提到修法當中進行考量。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是今天早上討論的結果，如果交通部覺得還ok的話，我們可能就會用這樣的方式，我也有貼到PO.chat。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "之前的議程，原定要報告出訪加拿大的狀況，負責的同仁另外有事，因此更換為小桌長工作原則。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這一份工作原則事前有寄給大家，希望今天在會後如果各位還有任何的意見，可以把修正意見送到我這裡來彙整，這個草案就能夠可以儘快定案下來。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我稍微唸一下每一個草案的內容，「目的」請參閱，接著是「協作會議流程」，主要是分成上半場及下半場，上半場是協助大家釐清脈絡，下半場是透過分組的方式，在輕鬆的環境下討論，因此下半場是需要小桌長幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "之前的兩、三次月會有請大家抽空來擔任小桌長，所以希望把小桌長的工作內容跟要做的事情更清楚一點，讓大家更有意願來做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "關於小桌長的分配原則，其實是有順序的：任何一位PO有意願參加，即使是你的部會業務跟這個案子可能一點關聯都沒有，我們都歡迎你來擔任小桌長。第二個順位才是從協辦單位去找，接下來才是主辦機關，主辦機關如果PO團隊剛好忙不過來的話，我們才會請主辦機關在「不是PO團隊的業務單位」裡面去找人。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "所謂適合的人選，我們的期待很簡單，可以跟著我們一起討論議題，因為主持團隊也不是公部門的同仁，都是從零開始一起來瞭解議題，請部會一起來參加也是主要的原因，因為這樣子，所以在協作會議的討論過程中，比較不帶情緒、中立的與會者，不管是支持方或者是反對方一起來討論這樣的事。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著有關於時數的部分，我會前有收到PO同仁的反映，這個時數有點嚇人，是不是一定要出這麼多的時間才能當小桌長。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果需要充分瞭解整個議題的話，會有這五個時間點需要跟PDIS的主持團隊一起討論，包含：參與會前會、確認議題手冊、沙盤推演，正式協作會議，會後檢討等。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "文件上註記的時間，是如果小桌長有全程參與的話，登錄學習時數的時間，並不是非得要來這邊待在會議室四個小時，這個是寬鬆的，因為小桌長基於本職的公務上忙不過來，可以透過電話或者任何形式來跟我們討論，這個是沒有問題的，因此時數的框定預想的成本，並不是一定要這麼多的時數不可。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於會前準備的部分，我們寫了三點：" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第一個是如果剛剛一直重複強調的，我們希望分組主持人在過程中能夠充分瞭解脈絡、傾聽各界的聲音。也許聽起來非常困難，但是實際上就是把議題手冊寫出來，並把議題手冊裡面的東西看熟就夠了，並不是像前面講的一定要很深入瞭解一大堆的東西，這個倒還好。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第二，儘量在事前瞭解同參與者的背景，而且我們希望小桌長跟主持團隊都一樣，可以同理他的立場，他的立場可能跟社會上大多數的人不一樣，也許我們可以設身處地站在他的立場想想看，如果你是他的話，為何會提出這樣的論述，你提出這樣的論述，是希望整個社會能夠達到什麼樣的效果。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第三，因為我們在協作會議當中，設計很多會議流程與工具，希望大家在和平的氣氛下把事情討論完，為何會有這一些會議流程跟工具可以在擔任小桌長的過程中，可以跟PDIS一起討論與瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "像我們上個禮拜五開完有關於汽燃費的協作會議，是用新的圖表，並不是每一次我們用的概念發展單一樣，我們會依據不同的議程來設計表格與工具。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於討論原則的部分，如果寫成文字的話，像剛剛寫到我們一樣充分瞭解議題，這個可能大家很難瞭解，所以我們試著用對話的方式來把它重現，像我們要一再重複確認來開會的人發言是什麼意思，用比較簡單的話再問簡單一次，或者是大家針對某一個爭點討論了一段時間之後，我們就趕快做小結。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這個小結有幾個重點：第一，明示、暗示的所有與會者，要確認往下走；第二個是討論那個點有沒有共識，如果有的話，就把這個close掉，如果沒有共識的話，我們確認針對這一塊有共識或者是沒有共識，我們就停在這裡，再讓議程往下推。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "原則上透過問句或者是引導的方式，試著在小組討論的過程中得出大家都可以接受的結論，即使大家都不能接受，我們也可以表達這個意見收到了，也許在這一場會議沒有辦法解決這一個問題，但是這個聲音我們會記錄下來，而且會讓未來所有關心這一個案子的五千位網友一起知道有提出這樣的觀點。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "紀錄的方法也很單純，通常小桌長不會只有一個人，一個小桌長也搭配一至兩位的PDIS同仁，我們會把裡面所討論的東西，透過便利貼的形式、心智圖的形式一起分類出來。分類完之後，我們要一直提醒所有的與會者，要回到最核心的問題，像會議的過程會發散到比較無關的地方，但是我們會拉回來今天會議的核心就是在討論燃料費，因此會討論到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於客觀中立的部分，還有討論動能與節奏的部分，大概是類似的邏輯，只要主持人在處理的過程中，只要保持一定的中立，而且確保重視每一位參與者，只要他想講話都有機會發言。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "至於「保持討論的動能與節奏」，這個是比較藝術的層面，如果過熱或過冷，都不是有效率的會議。所以今天是要透過小桌長情緒上的帶動，我常用的方法是講一個很爛的例子，大家會罵你說事實並不是這樣子，討論的氣氛就會出來。真的有人非常激動的時候，我們聽完他說了之後，我們把他的意見記錄下來，有關於表達激動情緒的部分，我們是透過ORID去處理，讓整個會議進行過程中的情緒比較平和。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果小組討論的過程中有一些衝突，儘量協助大家在衝突發生的當下，表達我們很重視他所表達的意見，但是不要讓衝突雙方的氣氛再升高，在最嚴重的情況之下，我們可以在這個節骨眼放棄不一定要有共識，某一些議題在很爭議的狀況之下，不可能透過短短一場會議讓所有人得到共識，因此小桌長的狀況稍微掌握一下，如果衝突已經升高了，就不要在這個階段去強調非得要強求共識不可，也許先擱置，我們先處理下一個比較有共識的部分。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "最後一個點是，在分組討論結束之後，我們要做一個成果報告，挑選也會比較小心一點，成員的挑選等於是總結今天這一整場會議的結論，通常是假設一桌有十個人，小桌長會試著從裡面挑中位數，並不是發言最少或者是最多的，看起來比較能夠用平和的情緒去表達這一場會議發生了什麼，我們會試著從這樣人選去找，不一定每一場都可以找到適合的人，必要的時候，小桌長也可以說如果大家不想報告，我們就試著幫忙大家報告，這個部分也沒有問題，以上是我們針對小桌長在整場協作會議要做的事跟注意的事項。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "不曉得各位有沒有任何的建議要提出的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者之後也有一段時間可以用書面的方式，看大家實際在作業時，有沒有一些希望我們放在這裡面，之後比較容易幫忙帶人的部分，或者是裡面有一些覺得用詞太強硬了，實際在執行上有一些困難等等，這都可以之後向致翔提出。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天sli.do是01203，剛剛忘記講了，隨時想到什麼都可以往sli.do上放，如果暫時還沒有的話，我們先往下。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這個部分是在談小桌長的工作原則，我們上個禮拜也臨時抱佛腳拜託交通部PO當小桌長，是不是可以麻煩她說一下在這一場會議當中所觀察到的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "主席、各位同學，我看大家用疑惑的眼神看我，我本人其實也很疑惑（笑）。我想我的心情應該是可以反映大家的心情，你被詢問擔任桌長的話，你的第一個反映是「啊？」接下來是「為什麼？」最後一個是「一定要嗎？」結論是「好吧」，心路歷程大概是這樣（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "如果要問我心得的話，我是秒忘、一片空白，那一天開完會之後就很放鬆了，所有的事情就過眼雲煙、不復記憶，但是致翔跟我說要報告，我就努力回想那個上個禮拜五那幾個小時發生了什麼事。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "第一個心得是要有良好的體力，因為開會的時間比較長，有時會議的場地，也許大家討論的時間比較久，因此要確定自己有良好的體力，要站的時間也滿久的，那一天開完會之後要走的時候，兩隻腳不太容易走動。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "第二個是致翔整理所謂主持人的工作原則，我覺得這個是有幫助的，你在主持的時候，其實有時可以看一下他們所建議的語法，或者是所建議的一些處理方式，我覺得事先看過，你自己可以先假設一下，好比可能可以怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "最後會告訴大家你看的一切不會如你所願，一切並不是你可以操控的，來自四面八方的人，那麼多的突發狀況都會發生，如果有發生的時候，就先隨他，原則上先把時間抓一下，如果有情緒的問題，自己可以抓時間說好，花個5分鐘的時間，想說就儘量說，5分鐘結束之後，大家就平心靜氣，該說的說完，回過頭來繼續討論。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "聽起來很輕鬆，但是其實很辛苦，但是如果這樣的話，其實也不用緊張，確實PDIS會在旁邊協助，如果有一些問題點要討論的，也會幫忙提醒，也不用擔心便利貼亂寫一通會怎麼樣，像我那一天亂寫一通，但是芳睿會幫我分類，我都是用同一個顏色寫，但是他們會幫我分類。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "雖然PDIS同仁之前告訴我說參加過會議之後，會深深烙印在你的身心靈裡，你都不會忘記。但是我覺得對大家來講，這都是對大家一種挑戰，現在有點頭跟微笑的人，以後可能就會成為桌長的候選人，也不要因為這樣子就不敢微笑跟點頭，因為我覺得嘗試是滿有趣的，說沒有壓力的話，我想應該是欺騙，但大家壓力也不用太重，因為桌長說的話也不會被記下來，你可以跟早上的長官與同仁相比的話，其實你沒有壓力，因為早上就會被直播出去，所有的話都會變成逐字稿，下午討論是沒有壓力，因此可以很free、海闊天空，但是重點是你自己不能離題，如果你先離題，他們沒有辦法討論，因此議題手冊有必要可以先看，看不懂也是還好，他們說看不懂就把自己當作是好奇的小孩，因為看不懂所以好奇，因此會問大家為何會這樣講，我覺得這樣的理解方式也不錯。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "總而言之、言而總之，歡迎大家接在我之後嘗試，先把我跳過，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我稍微補充一下，會後其實有做一些訪談，與會者的回應是：對於桌長部分，他們覺得那一天（11月30日）討論有在主導討論，讓所有的討論可以覆蓋到議題的動作，他們也有特別提到其實有些討論滿好玩，雖然會歪掉，但是桌長滿認真，會拉回來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "公部門會提出一些想法，在討論中也適度被引導出自己想出一些不知道的事，因此他們覺得桌長的角色做得滿好的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實雖然剛剛說分組討論不會直播出去，不過事實上是會的。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "直播是兩桌同時直播，一個在左聲道、一個在右聲道而已，我們在社創那個場地，有包含研究團隊中經院、有興趣的網友，但是主要是各地加油站的會長，他們在社創中心的空總那邊，本來我們分桌討論的時候覺得轉靜音，覺得兩個喇叭分別放一桌覺得怪怪的，但是後來我如果沒有記錯的話，是硬他們的要求，他們很想放出來，所以就兩個喇叭各放一桌，誰想要聽那一桌，就靠那個喇叭近一點，是有直播出去的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽完下午的討論之後，某一位我忘記哪一個地方加油站聯合會的會長，很直接地說「如果重大的議題都這樣子討論，選舉結果可能就會不一樣」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個是對小桌長的讚美才對，我是如實把當時的氣氛說一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "各地加油站在事前訪問都有一點劍拔弩張，但是隨著討論過去之後，他們就進入平心靜氣的狀態，不只對於那一桌，其實對遠端也很有效果。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "sli.do上也有幾個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do上有通訊提到「請問有興趣當小桌長，但是實在和本職工作無關，不太容易在機關內取得同意，怎麼辦呢」，這一位是匿名的，不知道機關是什麼？不過底下有一位是「是不是有可能各部會輪流」？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己有一個初步的想法，如果你想要當小桌長，但是跟工作無關，可以跟致翔私下講，我們可以派各部會的輪職班，但是有表示過意願，就可以排在前面去，「就說我不是有意願的，而是被指派等等」，我們在總統盃黑客松就這樣做，當然如果自願者不足夠多的話，當然就會變成不願意被輪流的被輪流上，我也沒有很強烈這樣的想法，所以我也沒有很強烈方式，讓自願的人可以不需要自願，而是會變成被指定，但是不自願的人，可能不太會被指定等等的設計，看要不要請致翔幫忙規劃一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "小桌長是不是需要聽取議題主辦或主管機關意見？怕聽太多會不小心變成主導議題討論的結果。其實各方的意見都要聽，不管是透過訪問或者是什麼，結果是議題手冊，然後再變成心智圖，因此我會覺得當小桌長，也就是至少到場那一天，各方的意見都要瞭解，所以並不是有佔邊的問題，而是每一邊都要能夠站過去，至少體諒他們的出發點，不一定要同意，但是要傳達出一種這樣子講也不是完全沒有道理的氣息，這個是很具體的回答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是很重要的，不需要怕你提出來機關的意見會先入為主，只要知道議題手冊的程度，不同方的意見也會出現，只是確定心理每一邊都要能夠站，而不是只站邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有朋友提到明年是不是有新任PO培訓？時間確定了嗎？想預留時間。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我稍微說明一下接下來會發生什麼事，我們在12月底會發一個函，提到各部會PO滿一年的話，可以考慮作業務上的交接或者是繼續續任。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "同時，這個函也會處理今年度大概參加了幾場的協作會議、教育訓練，讓各部會有敘獎的機會。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接著，新任的PO是明年1月才開始，我們會儘快讓各位有時間簽辦，按照去年的經驗，PO的共識營，目前還沒有很多的細節，但是通常會是在農曆年前後，大概需要兩至三天需要辦共識營。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "農曆前或後並沒有很強烈的意見，也是看大家的想法，如果農曆年前比較好的話，其實簽過來也可以作這樣的建議，原則上是以大家可以預留的時間為主，如果前後都可以、沒有很強烈的意見，當然就直接選上來就可以了，如果前幾天或者是後幾天比較好的話，就一併這樣子講，我們會儘量排一個大家最可以的時間，這個就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於輪流的部分，看起來不要輪流的票數稍微大一點，是不是可以不要輪流，就是用指定，如果想要被指定就讓致翔知道，我們會找出某一種方式，讓你在一個月後或者是兩個月後遭到指定，如果都沒有人自願的話，就以主辦、協辦的，其實協辦是最好的，因為有取得簽核的依據，但是理論上不用做這麼多主辦的行政工作，因此還是會依照議題開始做，不會硬性排到四個月以後、五個月以後的輪流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果有興趣，也願意兩個月以後、三個月以後來參加的話，請盡早跟我們說，我們這樣會想辦法讓你被指定，我們先用這樣的方法做。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "依據草案工作原則的寫法是有優先順序，是以自願者優先，如果要把輪職表輪流的話之順位放進去的話，我會建議放在「3」後面，也就是當主辦機關PO也沒有更適合人選的時候，我們透過輪職表的方式再挑選其他的PO，當然這個順位可以再討論，看要放在最前面中間或者是最後面，我覺得有一個輪職表讓大家有所依據，並不是自己一個人在部會裡面說「我很想去，但是沒有很正當的理由」，相對來講會好一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是先把文字弄清楚一點，也就是這個輪職表的產生是以之前個人來產生，或者是以各部會來產生？這兩個意思是不一樣的，個人是說「無論如何就是有興趣，即使部會的PO團隊不會選我」，而想要選其他部會，各部會會變成各部會無論如何都一定要輪到的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來如果以個人的話，是比較容易執行的，但是問題是這個人的來源，是不是某個部會的PO，或者是挑一下你們團隊裡面有一些人，會覺得當一個小桌長試試看，等於還是以互相推舉，如果某一個部會團隊推到之後也沒有，我會覺得暫時保留沒有的可能性，不要硬性每一個部會一定要推一個人出來；但是一個部會推兩、三個人出來我也很高興，但是我們還是希望大家至少能夠推一個人出來，如果真的都沒有的話，也沒有什麼罰則，我們就用這樣子比較公平的方法來做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果這樣的話，那個文字再修一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友表示轉眼間過一年，時間過很快。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有兩位朋友問新任、舊任PO要不要餐敘，這個是沒有問題的，形式跟預算，請容後再，但是吃飯是沒有問題的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "sli.do先收到這裡，我們先往下。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "歷次協作會議摘要報告，先請序號9。" }, { "speaker": "羅柏", "speech": "主席、各位夥伴，這一個議題上次也報告過了，一直沒有進展，但是立法院雖然有關心，我們也有提出來，剛剛再詢問結果仍沒有時間排進去，因為最近都在討論預算，因此似乎遙遙無期。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "下一個會期。" }, { "speaker": "羅柏", "speech": "這邊是寫「廢除」，但是我相信應該朝「修正」的方向來走，立法委員都是這樣的想法。以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "序號37，健保卡案，請衛福部。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這案子已經報了半年，前情就容我縮短一點。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "健保卡的規劃上希望可以做得更前瞻，7、8月跟最近一次是上禮拜（11月26日），感謝PDIS協助，已經開了三次的協作會議，前面兩次協作是蒐集大家對於健保卡的想法，在上個禮拜的協作會議是由署提了三個方案，一個是居家醫療藍牙的方案、一個是一般診間時的NFC、QR code，看大家的想法如何，因此上一次協作會議的定位是在拋方案、收到各界再給我們檢視後的建議。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "至於本案後續會怎麼走，我們現在有跟政委辦約，這是長達半年的專案，健保署副署長跟政委都有定期會議，我們在12月20日再跟政委報告。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "同時今天也想特別請教的是，就我所知，在今天上午政務會議上，似乎也有針對這一個案子討論，特別是今天有一些報導是提到健保卡跟eID的關聯，在這個地方也要詢問一下政委上午政務會議的結果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想先講結論，結論是健保卡協作會議的各項產出，包含明年初行動診療藍牙讀卡機方案，後續NFC及QR code的測試都應該要繼續測試，這個跟eID的相關政策進度不受影響，意思是不管測試出來，大家覺得NFC很好或者是QR code很好，或者是行動診療先走或怎麼樣，這個都跟目前還沒有報給院長的eID政策是脫鉤的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是即使eID要在2020年發14歲以下的小孩，未來我們這邊測試出來的，包含行動讀卡機、NFC、QR code還是繼續使用，不會因為這樣子不使用或者是用別的方法去做，而是一開始做身分認證的時候，除了用健保卡可以做身分認證之外，也可以使用自然人憑證，也就是所謂未來eID來取得健保卡的認證，可能最多就是改到這裡，但是這個不需要先放在測試計畫裡面，簡單來講這個測試計畫是繼續走，並不會因為eID有任何更改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "eID的部分我聽到的是明天才會跟院長報告，報告也有一些相關的部分，像剛剛講的14歲以下發卡的規劃及是否整合健保卡及駕照評估，這兩個都會在明天的報告之後，我們才會知道政策方向，目前我看到的大概都是評估案。看有什麼需要問的？反正都有逐字紀錄，可以一次問。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "兩個問題：" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第一，我們目前對外都是說我們有開協作會議研議新一代健保卡方案，並保留未來與eID的整合空間，想要確認在這個時間點上，對外的回應定調是否需調整？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "第二，剛剛政委講的是在測試階段確定脫鉤，想了解測試以後的階段，所謂身分認證是不是要去整合的這一件事，現在有沒有定調，也就是要往整合的方向走？或者是研議中？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個很簡單，我們本來預留未來某一個時間點，也許可以用自然人憑證看病的技術可能，這並不是法規。因此我覺得對外就是繼續這樣子講，這個狀態並沒有改變。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我也覺得，至少接下來24小時裡面，我覺得衛福部不需要特別去說，因應還在研擬中的想法，我們有什麼改變，這個是具體建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個，不只是測試時程不受相關進度影響，實際上如果測試是成功了，那營運上也不受影響。這個道理就像剛剛所講的，在測試或者是營運的時候，已經留有可以運用自然人憑證來取得虛擬健保卡的空間，所以你把它想成是自然人憑證擴大發卡，這樣子我們在技術上或者是測試上，並沒有需要因為這樣而修改的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實跟衛福部最後有關的，只有所謂的「2020開始發卡」。目前協作會議相關的東西都不受影響，不管是測試上或者是未來的營運上。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "涉及到一些技術面的問題，我們帶回去跟署內討論一下，看到時候再討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK，下一個。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "序號40，東沙環礁國家公園案，請內政部報告。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "主席、各位夥伴大家好，有關於本案是海委會及本部海管處共同主責，這個案子之前有報告過，已經開過協作會議了，目前的進度是海管處在106年有辦理東沙環礁國家公園生態旅遊規劃暨可行性評估，這個研究案於今年年底會完成。" }, { "speaker": "楊雅婷", "speech": "後續將依成果報告內容進行機關協商，並納入東沙專案暨東沙環礁國家公園計畫第二次通盤檢討辦理，本案已經到一個階段，建議可以解除列管。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "請海委會。" }, { "speaker": "卓訓杰", "speech": "主席、各位夥伴大家好，海委會報告，就這一個議題，承蒙海洋國家公園管理處在我們提案之前，就已經有相關的研究跟評估，所以在後續的協作會議裡面，可以很快把一些問題聚焦，然後在討論的過程中也獲得很多具體實質的建議，當然內政部代表這邊也提到了，目前海洋國家管理處正在做一些評估的階段，後續還有一些整體的檢討。" }, { "speaker": "卓訓杰", "speech": "剛剛也提到在整個討論的過程中，其實有涉及到很多關鍵的議題，短期內似乎沒有辦法很快的定案，所以我們的意見就如同內政部所提到的，是不是可以先解除列管，由我們自己來管考。" }, { "speaker": "卓訓杰", "speech": "海委會將會以海洋事務整合與協調的角色來持續協助推動議題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想當然一方面可以解除列管，第二個是其實有參加協作會議的、民間的朋友們，其實他們現在也有把雨蒼寫的那一份轉在網站上，標題是「前往東沙潛旅不是夢，臺灣觀光巨輪似乎悄悄動起來」。內文就是雨蒼寫的，只是改一個標題而已，現在已經有在網站上有呈現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這樣也滿好的，雖然我們解除列管的意思，是短期內沒有要再開協作會議，但是個別有來參加的朋友，因此而比較瞭解整體規劃，建議未來還是可以保持一定程度的友善關係未來有任何部分需要他們幫忙想、幫忙討論，甚至幫忙宣傳這一些部分，等到稍微確定之後，建議還是可以再去聯絡所有之前來過協作會議的朋友，畢竟比較瞭解整體的規劃，比較不會片面出去討論，這部分也是一個具體的建議；但是，在我們這邊大概先處理到這裡，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "針對序號40東沙案，是不是可以幫忙補充一下？因為每一個案子，其實致翔都會寫這一個案子的會議摘要，會議摘要裡面有分別針對每一組提到問題的爭點、解決辦法、風險、克服方式，都有清楚列點，不知道是不是可以幫忙說明一下，依照致翔這一份的會議紀錄來看，是不是可以幫忙回憶一下哪一些是有參採、哪一些沒有參採。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是現在，而是等你們整理那一個案子出來之後，回過頭來看當時政務會議、也拿去別的地方，討論協作會議的建議單，像船輸潛水，那個是短期或者是中期可行，其他不可行，稍微有一個逐項回應，之後來找有協作會議的朋友，比較有一個對話的出發點，比較可以知道哪一些是明年或者是後年開始做，哪一些看起來還沒有那麼容易。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是可以請業務單位在整理的時候，請致翔的那一張表幫忙整理一下，而是未來再跟協作會議溝通的話比較好溝通。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "不好意思，當時還沒有列到，序號41的燃料稅案，請交通部。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "燃料費案是在上個禮拜五開的協作會議，基本上我們那一天的協作會議，是有針對四種方案：一個是維持現狀、一個是隨油徵收、一個是隨里程、另外一個是隨里程加車重。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "然後分成兩組，然後針對這四種有做一些相關的討論，交通部會參考這樣子的討論，在「Join」平台上做正式的回應。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "至於政委剛剛提到政務會議上的結果，我們會轉告回去並提給業務單位，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "人總PO想報一下以時計假的案子，請人總。" }, { "speaker": "高慈蔚", "speech": "主席、各位PO夥伴大家好，有關於序號28修改公務人員請假規則第10條第1項後段的案子，在此簡要報告如下。" }, { "speaker": "高慈蔚", "speech": "本案已於107年11月1日考試院第12屆第211次會議決議，先就與行政院有共識部分，也就是有關事假增加為7日，以及婚假、喪假與休假由半日計改為得以時計等部分發布施行。本案業經銓敘部參採納入請假規則修正，並於同年11月16日經考試院會同行政院修正發布。為回應關心本議題之提議者及附議者，人事總處也於107年11月23日於公共政策網路參與平臺更新最新辦理進度，以上報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。這個案子好像實行第一天，也就是禮拜一的時候，行政院這邊說還沒有改好系統，事實上我是禮拜二就改好了，所以效率是非常快的，因此12月20日我就請了一個小時的假，特別感謝當時的提案人是「瑪麗X」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我在臉書拋出來之後，有冒出一位公務夥伴，自己說是他提的，看起來應該是真實的，所以我也非常感謝這一位最後冒出水面的提案人，他表示「希望大家關心生活的同時，也能夠關心其他人、關心所在的公務體制」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "未來也歡迎繼續往考試院方向提案，因為這是第一個兩院會銜的案子，未來也可以有更多的案子，以上。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "接下來是討論事項，有關於12月份的協作會議討論及投票，請國發會。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "各位好，11月26日因為選舉的關係，「提點子」才正式重新開始上線，29日上個禮拜四有一個「虐待及性侵未成年加重刑法」這一塊，我們沒有納入，是剛好禮拜四才成案，其他未成案的議題，我們之前徵詢兩個部會，我們簡要說明。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "第一個是「對於有嬰幼兒需撫養的車主比照身心障礙者給予一戶一車的牌照稅減免」，建議比照身心障礙者的免稅額度來進行調整，前面也有相關的提案，請各位參考。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "第二案其實是談交通事故的損害賠償，主要涉及到交通事故發生時，一般民眾的保險費沒有辦法支付這麼高的保額，所以是不是高價車是不是可以提高，這個也要加保。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "另外一件事是賠償是不是有相關的上限，這個是不一定的，而不是雙方，也就是想要擦撞，就是超過很多保額。其他案子在去年都有相關的提案，我們就這兩個案子，以上說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。這兩個都是未滿五千人，事前大家覺得可以不應該納入投票的話，我們會用要不要納入投票的方式來做，事後即使納入投票，也成案、過了50％的話，我們還是尊重主辦部會，如果主辦部會不是以協作的話，還是尊重主辦部會，所以前後先講一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看權責機關有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "蔡承奮", "speech": "本案議題是討論有嬰幼兒需扶養之車主擬比照身心障礙者給予減免使用牌照稅，然而為因應少子化及人口老化問題，要通盤考量政府資源配置，租稅減免並非唯一手段，事實上政府政策推動時，經常會想到利用租稅減免措施，" }, { "speaker": "蔡承奮", "speech": "但是因為要處理類似這類情形，事實上在稅法上有「稅式支出」的方式來解決，也就是當你採取減稅措施的時候，也要考慮是否有替代的財源，產生的經濟效益如何，需要去評估，或許在座的PO也做過「稅式支出」也不一定。" }, { "speaker": "蔡承奮", "speech": "因此，財政部這邊建議，本案還是依照稅法上稅式支出的模式，由業務主管機關去整體評估這個減稅提案的目的與效益，然後再提出修法案，以上補充報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是以稅的方式的支出，並不是編在支出上，而是有一點看不見，但是仍然是支出，這個部分看業管機關有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這個案子社家署有來，請社家署的同仁說明。" }, { "speaker": "劉淑芬", "speech": "我們支持財政部這邊的說明，因為這個案子民眾提出來，其實他的目的是想要因應少子化，所以提出來這一個建議，我們知道其實各部會在7月的時候，花了很大的力氣整理出來，也就是提出一個因應少子化對策及報告，大家如火如荼在推動少子化，總共花了2,500多億元，投資了很大的人力跟物力，大家已經在做這樣的事，所以現階段應該是集中火力來做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "劉淑芬", "speech": "其實民眾的建議並不是不可行，其實我們常常在民眾的信箱裡面，接受到各式各樣的提議，各種先進的提議都有，但是沒有辦法一一接收，都是滾動式地修正檢討，所以現階段是不是大家先以目前行政院推動的政策為主，先以這樣的報告為主，我們先集中火力這樣推。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以聽起來的意思差不多，我們已經有一個少子女化的方案了，這兩位民眾所講的並不是不可行，但是並不在大方案的火力打擊面裡面，所以意思是不進入協作，也就是不跟這兩千多人談的意思，目前的階段是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "劉淑芬", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是兩個機關的共同意見。下一個是金管會？" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "主席、各位PO夥伴大家好，有關於限制交通事故車輛財損賠償上限的相關建議，金管會說明如下：" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "第一，民眾提案建議如果不小心撞到高價車（如法拉利），應有一個賠償的上限規範，這就好像逛百貨公司撞破琺瑯瓷要求應有賠償上限，這涉及民法損害賠償責任之規定，而保險僅為損害填補之工具之ㄧ，並不因已投保保險而能免除依民法或相關法規應負之損害賠償責任。" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "第二，民眾建議應規範高價車的車主加保相關的車體險，這需要從政策面特別去規範，要求特定的車主應該要做什麼樣的投保行為，在這樣交通政策的規劃裡面，基本上是屬於交通部的執掌，好比交通部在公路法及相關交通法令裡面，規範遊覽車、公車，未來要上路的無人機，應投保相關的責任保險。" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "第三，金管會係負責監理保險公司及審查保險商品，舉例說明，保險公司銷售的農業保險商品，係經金管會保險局審查，這是屬於商品面的管理，但規劃農民投保或給予保費補助等政策規劃，則由農委會主政負責。" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "第四、另外，透過政策規範人民要投保的話，目的都是在於保護受害人身體、生命或者是財產等等，較少直接要求民眾必須要為了保障自己的生命財產，而去強化投保保險。再者，即使政策規範高價車應投保超額財損險，車主可透過保險以降低或免除修車費用，仍無法免除民眾（撞車人）對高價車主（被撞人）的賠償責任，所以這個議題我們也不建議納入協作討論的，以上綜整報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來的意思是，如果你怕撞到別人的法拉利，是怕撞到的那個人要保超額責任險，並不是要那一台法拉利去保超額責任險，你基本的想法應該是這樣子，我們很少在法制上去要求可能被撞的那一個人去保險？" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "是的。一般由政策上主導規範應投保相關責任保險，主要是怕撞擊時危及到被撞的受害者，而加害人無法賠償。但是如果規範法拉利車主去買責任險的話，在這個議題討論中是沒有用，因為是民眾撞到法拉利，變成應該要顛倒過來，也就是民眾自己要因為自身的風險意識去投保超額的責任險，這樣子可能才能免除掉相關的賠償責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是很清楚的，有一點像汽燃費一樣，是不是需要跟民眾講得更清楚一點，看交通部有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "交通部在這邊，我們先呼應金管會的結論，這個議題尚難透過限制交通事故車輛財損的賠償上限來解決。一般車輛跟超跑的高價車發生事故的話，在交通部是涉及肇事鑑定，也就是限定肇事的原因。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "有關於修車費用上限的部分，民法有規定民眾的財產手冊或者是損害的話，是可以循司法救濟來填補損失。如果用法律來限制理賠的話，正當性要再審酌。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "就法理上來講的話，行政法規並無法拘束司法機關民事賠償的判決，這樣的損失風險是可以透過保險轉嫁，因為每一位民眾自身財力風險、評估及事故對象都不一樣，因此民眾面對這一種高價跑車的事故風險跟發生機率間，可能要做一個權衡來自行選擇，適度投保，這是有關於結論的部分。" }, { "speaker": "楊惠如", "speech": "有關於主管機關的部分，我們交通部業務單位認為從保險法的規定，或者是從汽車保險費用、小客車車體損失的超額保險，還有購買超額財損險的議題來講，是屬於規劃財產險的商品，是屬於金管會這邊的權責，所以在這個案子的主管機關，我們建議是金管會，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "雙方的意思都是這個協作也沒有辦法逾越實際上的狀態，就是我們很難協作出來，到最後就變成被撞了的要保險。意思是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果不進入協作的話，我想問一下這兩個的主管機關，有沒有像身心障礙一戶一車等等，我們是不是可以寫比較和緩？給這兩千人一個講法，也就是我們目前對於少子女化做了什麼事，在現階段，我們為什麼暫時不用租稅減免方法來做，只是一個人一小段，我為什麼會提這個建議——並不是裁示——因為畢竟是2,190人，很難保證未來不會有呼聲出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實就如大家所講的，其實隨時都有這樣的東西，我本來想說是不是有一套說法，而這個說法放出來，至少大家不會再提，即使再來看的時候，是有一個講法在那邊的，不知道主管機關是不是有可能這樣處理？" }, { "speaker": "蔡承奮", "speech": "我們會後會再跟衛福部做一些溝通。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得滿有教育意義，也就是「稅式支出」的意思是什麼，並不是沒有做事，而是在別的地方做事的講法，並不是寫到很細節，只是有一個很基本我們有看到大家的意見。" }, { "speaker": "蔡承奮", "speech": "會後我們會與衛福部溝通，彙整兩部會的意見在平台上回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "金管會那一段是不是可以直接貼？我覺得非常詳細。" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "我們現在講的是車主自己要加買，跟原本的提案是認為超跑車主要加買好像不太一樣，所以我們要直接回應嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只是有一個很婉轉的講法而已，而不是像道路維管費，那個是一開始名字取的不太好，願意提一個修改名字的法案，這個是很難做任何事。" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "這個案子基本上還沒成案，要先回應？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有到五千人就先算了？" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "對，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看其他部會的想法有沒有意見？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "我補一點意見，像有關於車輛財損的相關提議，國發會會提出來，2016年至2017年年底，陸續有非常多在「Join」平台上不斷地出現。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "當然是不是要召開協作會議或者是是要透過什麼樣的方式處理，我這邊並沒有很具體地堅持，但是我會覺得當網友持續在網路上提案的時候，主辦機關是不是可以要有更明確的說明或者是轉譯做得更好的說明，也許常常不到五千人，但是一直有人想到這一件事來提案，我想對機關也是某種困擾。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為現在就已經有超額責任險了，但是超額責任險的意思，就像剛剛講，是你去撞別人的時候，也就是放心撞別人，而是撞到比較貴的車可以比較放心，咱們跟大家提的方向是相反的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以也有另外一個可能是，把現有的超額責任險的意思是什麼，把它講清楚，然後用這樣的方式來進行回應，這也許也是一個方法，不是正面對他的訴求回應，而是現在的實際情況怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我想這個還是請會裡評估，如果你們有現成的，像我也不知道，也就是宣導的懶人包或者是問題其實已經放在某個地方，直接連過去就好了，如果都沒有的話，要從頭寫的話，這個是要簽比較多層，這個是供主辦單位參考，我們並沒有要裁示的意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一位朋友表示，跑車一定要保險的話……我們感謝這一位網友的意見，我們列入會議紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "黃鳳茹", "speech": "不好意思，我再回應一下，網友所提到的相關議題，多少都是牽扯到侵權行為相關的，比如他提到交通罰則與保險的比例應該如何，或是當跟超跑這一些高價車發生車禍時，應該要修法去限制賠償對方的修車費用上限，這都不是金管會的權責範圍，所以本會無法很直接地去回應應該怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以像這一種法理上很困難，到最後會跑到法務部嗎？是哪一個部會要做這樣法理上的解釋或者是交通部願意做基本的解釋，其實說不定也不是要回給連署人，而是先要有一套有點類似今天講的這一套講法，未來如果有類似的提案、連署案出現，到五千人的時候，我們有一個底本參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都沒有的話，那覺得用今天的逐字稿就好了，這也是一個可能性，今天的逐字稿會公布在網路上的，但是並不強求，想一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩位網友的意見，我們就存參。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實，民法是這樣子，非常感謝憲康的補充。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有什麼想要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Peggy對於健保卡案有幾個詢問，我很快回答：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，健保卡維持虛實併行。我們在協作會議講的是，直到所有的人都有手機，臺灣每一個地方都有網路、都不會斷線等等的情況之前，我們都會需要一張實體卡的事情，這個原則並沒有改變，就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們當時也相當有彈性，說「保持一張實體卡」的時候，我們沒有說那一張是什麼卡。事實上是這樣子，所以我們的立場並沒有改變，這個是第一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，新一代的方案測試可行的話，未來是可以上路的。因為藍牙的讀卡機，或者用QR code或者是NFC的虛擬卡，其實是跟自然人憑證、健保卡都相容的，所以繼續測的話，無論如何是按照第三場協作的結論，也就是要測到大家都可以接受，之後是可以上路的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於身分認證，可能有一個選項，是你可以用自然人憑證、也可以用健保卡來做身分認證。目前不管報稅或者是別的，大概都是這樣子。所以目前今年底、明年初大概都沒有額外要做的事。中長期唯一要做的事，就是取得虛擬卡的時候，從現行的健保卡加身分證，可能要有「用自然人憑證」的選項。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果把自然人憑證規劃加進去的話，其他什麼都不用做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於未來是否會有一個明確的時間，也就是所謂的健保卡停發？目前我完全沒有看到有這樣的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後，明天如果討論到服務流程整合的話，那要如何取得後續的紀錄？雖然我不會出席，但PDIS還是會出一個人，歡迎保持聯繫，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個月沒有投票的部分了。剛才有一個主管機關說，可以用階段性回應的部分來取代協作，聽起來兩個主管機關都是同樣的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個是回去再評估，或許可以直接拿公布的逐字稿，來當作回應網友的意見，但也不進入協作，聽起來兩個主管機關都是這樣子想，因為這樣子的話，投完之後馬上會被否決，所以就不要投了。這個月就先這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "很明確這一個月會沒有要協作的議題，根據之前的會議決議，我們有曾經建議過PDIS的能量沒有用在協作會議上，可以來辦教育訓練，過去半年來其實很多部會協助PDIS到各部會幫忙分享一些課程，接下來這一段時間如果各部會有需要的話，我們也可以試著做這樣的事情。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第一個具體建議是還沒有辦過教育訓練的機會，可以藉這個機會來辦一下。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "第二個我們預定在農曆年前後來做PO們的共識營，去年的做法是由PDIS同仁自己討論，接下來這個行程有空檔的話，我會傾向，是不是由可能PDIS來邀請PO一起討論出來，比如辦過很多場協作的PO、還沒有辦過的PO，大家希望聽到什麼或是學什麼東西，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個請大家幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得之前去各個部會，尤其是三級機關還滿踴躍的，而且也比較具體聽到希望什麼樣的發展方向，因此我覺得可以多加利用這個機會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好像有一個調整說明案，如果沒有記錯的話，進入一個動議。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "大家好，暫停附議期間，提點子沉寂了兩個月，今日報告一下系統調整情形。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "10月的月會已向大家說明參採情形的初步規劃，當時討論結果除了文字上的調整，另建議提供新增參採情形子項的功能，目前該功能已完成。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "另一項是民眾閱讀機關回應呈現方式的改變，若機關正式回應時填入參採情形說明，在前臺的機關回的的版面將會變動，優先顯示參採情形欄位，若民眾想看全案，則點選畫面上向上的箭頭即可。另外需提醒機關的是，當機關填答正式回應欄位，就是後臺的「3.參採情形」，將會觸發3個動作。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "第1，是前臺回應呈現方式改變，就是剛才的說明。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "第2，是成案回應通知提議者及附議者，並引導民眾至討論區進行回饋，討論區依之前月會議決議開放3天後自動關閉，若機關有重啟需求，可至後臺設定。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "第3，寄發成案滿意度問卷調查問項新增詢問信，若機關有新增問項需求，可於參採情形回應後1個月內回復平臺，問項詢問之功能亦會在第15天寄出提醒機關回應信件。目前系統功能已經上線，將由最近一則成案正式回應啟用本功能。" }, { "speaker": "林雨潔", "speech": "要提醒機關與會代表通知系統操作同仁，若機關回應欄位該次填寫內容並非正式回應，注意不要填寫到後臺的「3.參採情形」，即使空白鍵也會觸發前述功能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。這邊講的參採情形的折頁，不是測試，而是已經上到正式機了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "舉例來說，像大家說不定都有去連署的「廢除公教人員學習計畫」是7,974人，我們現在如果到那個網頁，一下子就會看到一行「參採情形：現行制度已不再強制公務人員參與數位學習，相關法規已經停止適用，以電話方式向提案人說明瞭解」，大家一看就知道原來人總就是這個立場，你要特別按「閱讀更多」，才會看到一大堆分析說明跟研商辦理情形，所以我覺得滿好的，收到通知之後來的第一個印象是有快速面對問題、解決問題，而不是像之前要找很久才找到在哪裡解決，因此上到正式機，目前都沒有聽到什麼不好的回應，因此我覺得滿ok的，其他就請大家協助辦理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有其他的動議？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "假設成案，最後面兩個月，像機關回應的時候，前台會開放三天民眾的回饋。原則上我們以前的做法是不開放討論的，但是我們今年年初的時候有做今年修正及調整時，社群有建議政府回應之後，民眾就完全沒有回饋，也就是單向，成案之後政府參採，是否參採，民眾都沒有表達的管道跟回饋。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "剛剛同仁也有講到三天的開放時程，但是三天機關開放更久也ok，但是當初沒有提到討論時，機關要做後續處理，會邀請民眾後面會再開放三天，也就是當初有提議跟附議者會再通知，因此會再開放三天。" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "另外，也是嬰幼兒的案子，財政部回應的時候，當初兩千多人是不是要同時開放三天來做意見回饋？又或者是原則上只是不通知？聽大家的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們覺得可以聽通知，本來就是要讓他們知道我們有在重視這一件事，至於是不是要開放三天回饋，現在的系統預設怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "王國政", "speech": "系統預設機關回應會，但是現在是機關說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過像這個很明顯是不參採，所以意思是如果明確說不參採，也會回應三天？也就是參採情況或是不參採，如果我只是說明的話，不會有三天的留言，但是說明的話，還會寄信嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣聽起來剛剛是一個說明的性質，就是說我們等於希望大家知道，目前我們對於「稅式支出」的想法是這個，我們目前對於少子女化已經有做哪一些事，不涉及到參採與否，因為乾脆還沒有成案，因此我會覺得用說明的方法，但是大家還是會接到通知，只是沒有參採或者是不參採，如果覺得可以的話，我們就這樣來處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有想要提的動議或者是想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Peggy在sli.do上說「非常感謝國發會的調整」。我也覺得是相當不錯的調整。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天會議到這邊，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（前言）" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "雖然沒辦法正式加入 OGP，但如果我們可以push我們的政府照做，例如兩公約或 CEDAW 模式，然後台灣來自己產生我們的開放政府 Action Plan，然後找其它國際場合做 commitment，也去執行，雖然我們名義上不是我們加入了OGP。至於 OGP 那邊可以做的是，他們可以用私底下的身分，或者民間 CSO 社群的其他方式，幫我們推薦有參與過IRM審查經驗的專家，給我們很多經驗的交流。或者是如果我們對什麼過程不瞭解，他們都會願意給我們很多意見和講解。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "另外也聊到非正式可能的好處，是比較彈性。例如 OGP 的action plan是兩年為一期，但這幾年他們一直有收到feedback，有些國家覺得兩年太短了，但這個已經在他們的章程裡面。他們覺得如果臺灣可以自己做這一件事，也不在大的硬框架下，也許臺灣可以嘗試一些在這個社群大家已經提出來很多新想法。如果 OGP 自己要做的話，也要修改章程，還要各個國家來同意，我們就是來做一個沙盒。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以過了三年，他們就可以說臺灣模式不錯，大家來改章程的意思？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們還有什麼想試的？我目前只聽到兩年改成三年，還有什麼別的？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "比較明確的目前只有聽到這個。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（會後補充：這個可以再去廣泛地跟各國了解）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "IRM跟他們的秘書處基本上是平行的，就是都在執委會，但是這個IRM有一個獨立運作的機制，所以執委是不會管到他的。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "他們會為每一個會員國家去hire當地的獨立研究者，IRM自己也有一些方法，通常會做兩次，第一次在產生action plan的過程及內容會做一次，最後也會針對執行成果做一次。我們可以請他們推薦這一些有在其它國家協助做過審查報告的組織及個人，我們這裡也可以找我們覺得適合的在地研究者，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（會後補充：但未來要釐清怎麼找到錢來支持這個審查，不能用政府的 funding，以及審查者如何維持中立，而不是透過 CSO 或政府或企業任一方等等）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以是個別專家，以個人身份願意幫忙嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "我覺得他們也沒有承諾什麼幫忙，因為台灣要做的action plan都不清楚，但是他們說願意提供connection介紹之前做過IRM審查委員的人，來跟我們合作。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "他們有特別提到在官方上的合作可能不太容易，但是他們願意用民間組織來做自己的action plan的時候，他們願意提供他們的資源及連結，然後協助我們按照他們的機制與做法去做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們對名稱有要求嗎？我們是叫做CEDAW國家報告，但是大概不會叫OGP國家報告？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我們要叫「OG」都可以，但不能有「P」。但是可以在整個報告裡面，都可以說是照 OGP 的方法，如何如何。只要title不要有「OGP就」可以了，只要參考「OGP」的「方法」、「規則」都沒有問題，那些本來都是開放的，只是在宣傳或者是推銷這一件事的時候，你的title不要有那個「P」。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "不要用他的logo，簡單來講行銷上不能用他的，他把OGP綁在一起。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個意思，好比像是用「EDAW」取代「CEDAW」，因為那個「C」是convention（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好啊！這聽起來滿清楚的，所以要叫「OG」什麼都無所謂，後面不要接「P」就好，還有25個字母可以用。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "經過這個meeting，你們大概知道他們怎麼樣產出一個報告跟審查一個報告了？" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "其實那一天課上得非常久，上了三個小時，而且其實大部分的資料都公開在網路上的。" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "有講到流程，要做什麼事，一年要做一次、更新一次進度，他們有這一些東西，網路上資料都有。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "其實不出網路上公開的內容？" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "對，但有一些眉角。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我們也有談到是不是可以找其它 OGP 會員國家跟我們私下交流，也就是說不關OGP的事，但可以幫我們推薦找哪一些國家的人比較好，然後我們可以邀他們來。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "另外我們講到最後也有說，其實每一個國家都要繳年費600萬，這一筆錢台灣是繳不到OGP，但是可以額外承諾一筆差不多的金額，但是可以用來做跟開放政府 OGP 相關的國際間交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是把人帶過來？" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "就是教這一些細節如何做報告。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "還有是如何再擴大民間公民團體的參與，像過去這一段時間都有在參加的彭會長、智庫驅動、Open Data社群等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要做IRM模式，那當然是來者不拒，就是任何人都可以來參加。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看還有沒有要補充的？以你們的感覺，性平處的副處長，跟國發會的副處長有沒有聽懂、有沒有全程跟？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以是有聽懂。因為執行到最後，也是要他們幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "國發會應該還是要找機會跟主委說明清楚。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "他們個人有聽懂，但是組織還是上到下，是希望有機會看是不是您讓他們主委瞭解這一件事，才有辦法動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「資管處」改名成「數位發展處」之後，應該可以有更多的扣合。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除此之外，性平處有沒有提醒什麼或者是想法？" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "性平處是分享他們做的經驗，他們沒有覺得可以直接參與。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那當然。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "（在韓國）她就是分享他們做的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前CEDAW是四年一次。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "像性平處的狀況比OGP更難一點，因為 CEDAW 是聯合國的，官方的代表參加聯合國的會議，都要用個人的身分或者是借用其他NGO的名義，因此他們會覺得，以他個人的意見，我們這邊應該比較容易。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我的想法是台灣自己如果有做，我們在 OGP 年度的summit就想辦法跟其他的組織合作或者是怎麼樣，去 feature 臺灣的成果，雖然台灣的資料不會直接在他的網站上，但我相信這一些交流最後可以鼓勵臺灣更多政府機關的人或者是民間的NGO參加，也把一些經驗在學回來，具體地去推動、落實。不然現在，有很多這一種國際交流，最後因為我們沒有跟其他去參加的人有一樣框架、在做的事（指 action plan），所以很空泛。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前臺灣和OGP是各做各的，實際的狀況是這樣沒錯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有其他想要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "很開心，嚇一跳，韓國變很多。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "東西很好吃。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "不過這一次有機會談得比較清楚，就是說，像我們 2016年去 OGP summit 的時候都會做貼紙跟拉布條..." }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有設SSID。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "對，2016 那次還有一個大螢幕投影twitter hashtag牆，然後 yutin 就叫很多朋友去發推特，然後大牆上面就投射一大堆臺灣臺灣。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "總而言之，本來我們覺得就是自己去弄一弄，至少讓參與者注意到我們的處境，後來發現原來這一件事真的給 OGP 和主辦單位帶來非常大的壓力。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "他們很明白地說有很大的壓力。就是有人會拿貼紙來問他怎麼回事..." }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我們還是有發一樣的貼紙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣聽起來，就是對方很誠懇說是感受到壓力，但是這邊繼續給壓力的狀況？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "對。但我也跟她說，我沒有辦法承諾他說臺灣人去不會想辦法做這一類的事。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "那不要用OGP Taiwan，換一個貼紙。或者是OGTW。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "這倒是可以。另外也跟大家報告，我們之前曾經有想過在 2019 加拿大 Summit 會有更積極的push，讓台灣以會員國的身份加入，例如發起國際 CSO 的連署等等。但如果我們現在要先做這一種實質的參與，那個我們就會停下來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但他們也要瞭解到是有這個實力，只是暫時不做而已。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "先不連署，因為如果我們能先有一些實質的東西（Action Plan、執行成果、報告），這個其實是更容易讓國際社會看見台灣，願意花注意力來跟你交流。所以為此我們應該先跟 OGP 主辦單位維持一個比較好的合作關係，可以了解更多實際運作的細節。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們在韓國的時候，我們同時在明年的地主國加拿大，也見到在OECD寫《Open Government: The Global Context and the Way Forward》的主筆之一，也是開放政府的負責人，還有包含數位服務的官員等等。他們地主國的考量，大概都有同步到。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "他們強調的重點是除了包容性之外，還有這個對經濟有什麼幫助。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "對，這個（在 2018 IODC 時）看得很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（會後補充：主辦國加拿大的代表在 2018 國際開放資料會議 IODC 上不斷強調要關注 open data 的 impact，談到的都是例如「open data 創造多少工作、讓多少人生活變得更好」等）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「具包容性的『成長』」。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "聽起來後面的「成長」是放很重的比重。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以大家參加應該是沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "好，那我們如何來kick off這一件事（台灣政府實質與民間協作，提出開放政府行動方案）？畢竟這應該也是由政府先發動，政府得先確認我們的確是要往這邊去推動？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來，性平處願意做技術指導，IRM的朋友也願意以個人身分做技術指導。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "數發處基本上是主委點頭就可以做的事。目前的藍圖裡面，不管是幾大支柱，開放政府都還是一個重點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在人的部分，我目前的想法，是請數發處同仁來當作主要的執行者。主要的原因是，之前的各階段電子化政府，有關於開放資料跟「Join」平台參與等等這一些，都是數發處在負責。找別人的話，會有很多往返。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "就我所知國發會那一處人力資源非常地少，大家加班很辛苦，這個是第一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "第二，如果這個是國家在開放政府上的承諾，執行單位都是在國發會？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，我們是在講行政院。如果要執行這個等級的專案，至少是院長裁示，更正式的會通過某個要點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過，我們是第一次執行，還不用通過什麼要點，是院長裁示就可以做的事，這是人的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "錢的部分，數發處很坦白講，沒有預留這個預算，最快也要往下一個預算年度去編。但是我們明年跟外交部長有談，為了可能因應這一件事的需求，有留「數位治理」相關的外交經費，那個經費沒有OGP年費這麼高，但還是有一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在還是要和外交部討論，看這一件事要如何運用數位治理，來對外交有幫助。國發會主委、外交部長，如果這兩個人都同意的話，在我來看並沒有實質執行上的困難。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "加拿大是滿有興趣的，有提到很想跟我們做一些什麼，一起創造pilot project。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像「原住民族的開放政府」。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "是「開放部落」嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，因為他們也在促進真相與和解。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "不是族人身份的話，不太好去談這個。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（會後補充：我的意思是，無論是原住民自治、部落治理的部分，是否、如何引入開放政府的概念或數位技術工具來輔助，這個都應該是由原住民自己來發想、討論。我們可以做的，應該是加強連結原住民團體，針對相關的國際案例、資訊和（我們有限的）知識進行交流。包括未來談開放政府行動方案時，也當然應該納入原住民相關團體。）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實。現在的情況是，我們可以想辦法讓臺灣的族人跟加拿大的族人，進行越來越多的實質交流，但不一定要很快簽什麼。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "我們短期的目標可能是明年加拿大的參與，雙方可以在彼此都感興趣的議題上有什麼合作，action plan變成是中長期的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實這次FWD50之後，加拿大的朋友是傳了一個試算表，給所有去加拿大對於OGP感興趣的人，希望調查每一個政府組織裡面，目前正在有哪一些公民科技社群也有在用的工具，像這一種調查表，看到有共同工具的時候，也就是共同開發的社群，就會變得比較清楚，也就是臺灣跟愛沙尼亞共同用一套什麼，他們共同用一套什麼，這個是簡單立刻就有東西可以端出來的做法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在分享的，是日常用像hackmd的東西，像我們在用的sandmd之類的，但是無論如何我們有在用、在推廣。他們一旦開始用，這個是雙方公民科技社群很實質可以對接的東西。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "還有另外畫兩條線，一個是open contracting、一個是open parliament。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "另外，那一天智庫驅動嘉凱也有去，跟open contracting的社群是有滿多互動。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（問 pm5）他那一天具體怎麼說？" }, { "speaker": "PM5", "speech": "他在 OGP 講應該的是，總統黑客松的成果，但是那一場我沒有去。後來他那一天具體有說的是 Open contracting 在臺灣有跟好幾個層級的政府單位接洽過，但似乎都卡在工程會，我的印象是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，因為工程會之前都接到全有或全無的指示，他們很為難。現在有全有、全無之間的「有條件公開」，變得比較好做。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "全有全無的意思是？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「全有」是允許任何人使用、改作，不然不能叫做「開放資料」。但有些資料，像教育部重編國語字典一樣，並不是完全開放的授權方法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們提了很多的對案，好比像要提了申請才可以用，像只能做分析統計等等，有擬一些案子。在以前是如果不符合開放定義的話，就會被退回去，所以來回問過很多次。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在國發會有一個「最大限度開放」的概念，如果符合開放定義就符合，稍微有一些限制，只要把限制寫清楚，也可以放在 data.gov.tw ，因為有了這一件事，所以工程會又可以談了，其實其他像誠夏在幫忙看CNS的字型能不能用別的授權釋出，這一些現在都可以放在data平台，只要清楚標明授權限制就好，這個是目前可以處理的實際狀況。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "是不是還有提到兩年後g0v summit也願意再來？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "這個沒有具體談到。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "因為我們（g0v）也不確定會再辦，這個都還不知道。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "這邊跟各位補充個人的資訊，我在OCF會做到2019年1月底，所以這一段時間，到1月底之前，我還是以基金會的身分協助啟動這些相關的事，之後就用個人或社群的身分協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有兩個月的意思？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "您的職務代理人是？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "職務代理人目前（12/5）我們還不確定，而且對於OCF會不會繼續參與這一件事（OGP）我也不確定，但是一旦確定後，我們會馬上讓大家知道。不好意思，這個決定有一點突然，不過未來，針對開放政府這塊，我個人還是會繼續看看有什麼我可以貢獻的。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "此外，我想說是不是可以建立一個信件群組，把大家加進來？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這我都OK。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "忘了找小班，她也非常熱心，她在加拿大跟加拿大辦OGP很多人連上線。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "沒有早點跟我們講，剛剛她就在我們辦公室，應該也把她找來。" }, { "speaker": "PM5", "speech": "她有把一些信件轉給我們。" }, { "speaker": "PM5", "speech": "她其實有找那一些email群組，包含加拿大的人那一群跟我們連繫起來。我在想說反正線已經建起來了，如何可以一起腦力激蕩大家有興趣想要做某個東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上這是兩個題目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個是雙邊關係的部分，我想社群能做的比政府能做的多，政府能做的空間有限。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "如果可以套到經濟成長或者是數據類的東西，加拿大方會覺得更有亮點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。雙邊關係上，找加拿大感興趣的題目，可能要大家幫忙想。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個，IRM跟action plan，這是政府要先發動的事，這個是人力的確立、取得，還有跟外交預算是否能夠用在這一件事上，要先確定。" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "我補充一下，那時開一個文件是2016至2018年的某一個國家的case，如何產出action plan及如何產出階段報告的部分，其實以前有一、兩年，比較長，現在越來越短，那時有提到像這樣的效果比較好，可以參考。" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "還有提到其實審核是否過、能不能成為OGP的會員，其實是OGP裡面的一個委員會，IRM只負責審查，所以不會干預這一些。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。IRM、執委會跟地主國，各自有非常清楚的權責。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "有沒有覺得我們在5月加拿大之前，也就是在台灣推出自己的action plan這件事上，我們做到什麼階段？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最好的可能性，是請院長做這樣的裁示。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是正式啟動action plan，這個是最佳的情況，而且我們跟加拿大也有談到這個可能性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個東西要成功就是在這個之前，也就是說服國發會主委跟外交部部長。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上半年不需要馬上派人，但是下半年開始，人跟錢要用在這一件事上。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "明年下半年開始又會進入選舉，2020年1月左右就會投票了，很希望在選前能夠有一些具體的進展。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我們可以保守一點，但是我們希望在選前把這一件事確認下來，然後有一個action plan，在選後不管發生什麼，至少可以確定開放政府的發展方向是可以延續下去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。在5月做還OK，不然在相對政治議程上，隨著離選舉越近會越弱。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果在加拿大OGP summit有不小的代表團，也是實質外交的工作。5月底能夠講到的程度，可能沒有那麼多，但我覺得盡可能講到實際上可以掌握到的部分。因為過了這個之後再講，其實外交意義就不大了。" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "action plan除了單純的議程資料開放，聯合國的永續發展目標好像也可以寫成一個action plan。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。這個是很鉅細靡遺做的事如何放到永續發展目標，很多是在SDG 16、17項，所以現在很多人問我是什麼顏色的，我都說17種顏色。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為在這17種顏色裡面，比較多包容性成長可以放進去，因為裡面有很多創新、基礎建設、工業、永續能源之類的，廣度就比本來OGP只是關注環境跟社會，這兩個構面比較廣一點，這個也是加拿大比較能夠接受的。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "有提到解決海洋塑膠是有興趣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，如果取得一些idea或者是實質協助都是有加分的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "SDGs是所有聯合國成員都同意做這一件事，在169個題目上都不會有衝突。有衝突的都是從169個題目上刪掉了，這個是安全的空間。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "如果單純先從OCF的專案裡面去看的話，你們覺得我們真的可以show off的議題或計畫有哪一些？" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "（嘆氣）你這個時間點問我，就問錯了，在公投結束之後，我不知道。我原本對臺灣的民主跟公民參與是很有信心的，突然間……" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我是覺得有很多東西走得比人家前面，並沒有比較深或者是持續。比方大家常常說的，我們有政府公開資訊法，這個是領先世界很多國家很多年的，但是現在經常遇到資料要不到的各種問題；我們在開放資料一開始也是衝很前面，現在好像又回來。至於開放標案，其實很多超過100萬、10萬的都要上網公開招標了，但並不是全面、完整。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "再者是沒有符合國際的標準，也就是我們沒有把這個做得更深（也沒有想要推到世界以外的野心），因為沒有跟人家有一個共同的標準，所以如果別人開發了很多工具來接，或者是他跟各國比較的時候，你就沒有辦法加入這一塊，所以我覺得我們好像每一個部分都有做，也不比別人差，但就差一點什麼。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "台灣時不時有全國能源、經濟的會議，像是我們剛開完司改會議，這一些都是政府、NGO有很多公民參與的機制的一環，先不講辦得好不好，結果有沒有具體去實現，但是如何把這個東西，以民主外交的角度，把我們的這個特色、成果、學到的經驗（即使是失敗的）再放出去，我覺得就還差一些努力，這個是我自己個人的意見，也想要問一下其他人。" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "有提到如果要參加公開招標，臺灣還有一些事要做，做的話，明年才會延續，是我們的格式要換嗎？或者是要符合國際格式？我覺得好像講到這個。" }, { "speaker": "PM5", "speech": "不太記得細節。我覺得這個場合不太適合這方面的腦力激盪，可能還是先確定彼此聯繫的管道，然後用協作的方式盤點一下會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "PM5", "speech": "（會後補充：主要是台灣的開放政府社群本來就不限於 g0v，也有很多多少相關的活躍社群如 OpenData TW、ODA、OpenStreetMap、D4SG、clab 等等。用協作的方面盤點有什麼合作的可能，會比較完整。）" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我想要更具體講一下那個錢，我可以想像得到我們可能會需要資源，不一定是給OCF，但是就是協助、facilitate 公民團體這一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "第一，參加 OGP 年度 summit 是很明確的，之前 2016 是靠TFD贊助，但TFD的經費很有限。也就是說要如何擴大臺灣NGO可以參與加拿大的會議，以及邀請一些專家來臺灣來做訓練，然後再來是OGP有很多文件，這一些是臺灣跟OGP的團體要來的話，有一些基本的翻譯、協助說明、辦活動的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個程度的經費，是只要是外交部點頭就有的。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "外交部可能還是無法全額支持。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可能打七折。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "規模大小而已。第一年的重點是正當性，倒不是辦得多大。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很多外國講者來的會議，其實WCIT也辦過、ABAC的DIF也辦過，也很不錯，議題的正當性在業界有留下來，但是在政界並不一定那麼深。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "更具體的是，是不是回去我建一個 mailing 群組，把大家拉進來，有參加過巴黎那一次、韓國這一次的，有參加OGP的人，我知道的人先把他們拉進來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "我想問一下，au去年5月會去嗎？也就是5月的團，會去嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我時間有留下來，加拿大也知道我會以公民社會的身份參與。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "5月是我們要工作的目標期限嗎？也就是我要知道這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "另外，這個事情有兩面意義，一個是在外交上的意義，另外一個我比較在乎的是，我們真正內部開放政府的進度？不應該為了參加OGP而參加，而是應該自己本身有進展來做這一件事，這樣子聽起來的話，action plan可能到明年之前不會有實際的進展。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "我跟g0v的朋友再討論，也許會先做民間版本的需求，我覺得這樣子會比較好，因為一整年等預算，我覺得是很不必要的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。不花錢的部分可以先做。" }, { "speaker": "宇庭", "speech": "公民團體先來做民間版期待的action plan，然後再看政府這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我分享一下美國的狀況，有一個PMA，也就是「總統管理議程」，一開始是拿PMA當架構來做縫合，也就是只要不要逸脫出PMA太多，他們可以放一些進來，如果PMA民間很難接受，民間也可以提比較好的版本。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思是，民間要強調的支柱，可能要先列點，也就是初步確定某些方向，大家可以先把牌攤在桌上打，這個是雙方列點的事。至於資管處改名之後，接下來也會有相應的一些發展藍圖。我沒有要劇透的意思，不過應該會參考愛沙尼亞的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "按照數發處簡報的狀態，首先要說服各部會來加盟，這個還在說服的過程中；另外，國發會作為個資主管機關這一件事，我們知道最後是要法律配套的，不只是國發會和法務部發函。雖然在行政上已經這樣子落實了，但是最後還是要落到一些法律上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來應該會整理出會碰到的法律清單。那份清單什麼時候整理出來，我現在沒有辦法保證。但是數發處同仁加班，很多是在忙這個。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我以下講的話是個人期待，不代表 OCF。可以的話，我個人是期待能至少有個「要點」比較好，雖然法律的位階很低，雖然不太可能明年才開始怎麼樣，也先不要想在大選之前要趕出什麼，但是我們至少是不是可以先討論出一些里程碑，這一些我們可以想像進程，不管是社群可以做的或者是民間可以做的，或者是政府可以做的，至少我們先確認這一個框架和發展路線。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "其實這一次去韓國也有碰到加拿大做OGP相關的政府官員，他說加入OGP有一個好處，也就是不管誰選上、誰上台，上台的人如果不是很喜歡開放政府的概念，但也沒有關係，我們就做已經答應人家（加入 OGP）照現有的該做的進度來做就好了，就是持續往前。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "反之，如果新上台的人很願意推這個概念的話就可以多做，像是好大喜功來辦年會、區域會議等等，因此我覺得（台灣）缺乏這個的話，就像剛剛Isabel講的內部開放政府議程，實質上具體的政策發展比較看不到保障。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "畢竟OGP不是聯合國的公約，所以沒有辦法用《施行法》的模式。要點層級我會試看看，但是不要太抱期待。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我自己的經驗是，所有相關的東西我們都是先試著做，過了一年，確認對大家都沒有壞處，才會變成要點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在不一定能夠馬上變成要點，但是我會問問看。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "知澔", "speech": "我想要問一個問題，我是比較後來才加入這個討論，詢問政府覺得民間在推，至少這一個議程一開始是說加入OGP，現在可能我們自己來做「OGG」或者是「OGTW」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「OGG」不錯。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "知澔", "speech": "現在有一點像裡應外合的會議，政府夥伴們回去跟自己的同事講的時候，到底實質上有什麼幫助？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上，PDIS每個人都只代表自己。外交部的話，主要還是琬梅來判斷。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己個人是覺得，現在這個時間點去推這一件事有一個好處，就是聯合國永續發展目標在落實上，是有可以分享之處。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "國際上還沒有聽過永續發展目標的朋友，會覺得OGP往永續發展目標扣合，那個是什麼意思？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "外交意義上，我們寫「Taiwan Can Help」，也就是以開放政府的精神，來建立促進SDGs的夥伴關係，這是有外交空間的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是我個人的看法，但還是要看琬梅怎麼想。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "其實大家都理解永續發展的重要性，只是當你要賣產品時，你一定得說服客人這為什麼好、有什麼實質好處。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "外交部常常是很努力敲邊鼓，大部分專業議題，如漁業、開放政府或是婦女等，我們都不是主政單位，但我們看到國際上的機會在那裡，那是逼迫自己進步的理由，為何不去參加？可事實上是，相關主政單位經常說沒有預算，若外交部不補助，沒辦法去參加、為何要去？外交上的credit，為什麼我們要去做？因此，其實最難的那一關，還是國內主政單位的國際參與意願。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "但這是可以理解的，畢竟連加拿大主辦國也再三強調，不是只要永續而已，更重要的還是要求發展，才能正當化為什麼要推動開放政府。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使跟邦交國，也是這樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於數發處，怡君沒有在這邊，我也不能代替她講話，但某個程度的扣合是有必要的。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我的想法是，這算是一種出口轉內銷吧？就是從這裡拿一些東西出去外面，製造一些外交上的誘因，讓政府願意做更多的commitment，不然現在開放政府具體內容是什麼，我們看不到。政府也沒有什麼理由需要去多做。所以我的想法是，外交的意義跟內部進程相比，我們當然是care內部，但是如果沒有外交這一塊的話，說真的，政府沒有任何的誘因要去做。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "我想問一個問題，這一件事跟開放政府聯絡人制度，跟協作會議有什麼關係？我們在協作會議上如何去做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我在聯合國相關場合，是把開放政府聯絡人當作目標16.6，也就是要有當責、透明的制度，不管多大多小。還有16.7，也就是確保在決策先期，能用快速反應的方式，請大家用涵融的方法來納入決策的可能性當中，以及16.10會特別提到政策履歷等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OGP的訴求，已經慢慢整合進SDG16、SDG17去了，所以當我們跟各國分享2030年的發展目標，可以用這一個方式來接近，這一套的論述，國際上是很願意接受的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於臺灣本身，我想開放政府聯絡人現在最大的目標並不是衝量，其實是深化，不管是台南市剛成立了PO網絡，或者是三級機關的聯絡人也慢慢長起來等等，現在重點並不是衝「Join」平台到600、700萬人，而是在三、四級機關，跟地方縣市類似的東西如何深化。像地方有不錯的案子，也可以拿去加拿大分享。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "開放政府聯絡人是從不同的部會來？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所有的部會都有。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "如果要做action plan討論及協作，我想 PO 這個是很重要的平台，au 已經把這一些人拉出來了，如果未來針對民間版的action plan 跟政府這邊要討論的時候，這個是很重要的介面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們會在每一季跟主秘或者是次長，就開放政府的議題設定會議去進行闡述，至晚像我們在加拿大有談什麼的話，也就是加拿大後面那一次季會。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "其次，PO、協作會議、「vTaiwan」等等一套東西，其實也很好出國跟人家交流的東西，像你們在紐約有辦針對市府公務人員的主持人培訓，如果以後東南亞有一些國家想要做，但是還沒有做，也還沒加入OGP，我們可以在臺灣辦，邀請這一些國家的政府或地方政府來，這也是一種新南向，當然這個不是民間團體的角色，只是我聽起來是它可以被包含在這裡面的，台灣在這一塊的成果之一。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "我補充阿端提的一點，你剛剛所謂出口轉內銷，我覺得辦公室接下來一年，因為坦白來講，這一次選舉檢驗地方政府、接下來是檢驗中央政府，如果我們在國際上做什麼交流、action plan，越多曝光是一件好事，但是相對而言，也會有人問如果像你們講得那麼好，為什麼臺灣的問題這麼多，為何中央政府滿意度這麼低？這個是我們需要回答的，並不是你們的人，但是這個會是別人來問的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實如此。之前調整第五階段電子化政府，也就是現在的服務型智慧政府，主要就是在end point遞送的時候，要改進使用者體驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這大家都聽過了，但是離換算成選票也是有一段距離。" }, { "speaker": "知澔", "speech": "為什麼要投開放政府的票。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是為什麼要投更好的使用者體驗？除非來改進投票的使用者體驗，這個會比較好（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "雨蒼", "speech": "但是感覺到良好的時候已經投完票了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少投票、計票的體驗可以改善。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "坦白說，其他的部會確實會有壓力，也就是數發處如果弄出一套跟國際接軌的模式，部會都配合辦理，但是這個對於整體的施政，到底怎麼樣去扣合？這是要跟部會溝通的部分，這倒不是大家的工作。我們如果能把這個論述做出來的話，推動的機率就會比較高。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "我想我已經表達很清楚了，我就是害怕，所以才覺得要趕快把一些定下來。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "我覺得不需要害怕，因為開始也不是從這一個政府開始，我講直白一點，也不是從民進黨政府開始。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "我們在做的事，好像並不是選舉成敗的關鍵點。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "是，都是繼續生存的，大家都想要繼續活，所以不要害怕。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "至少這個政府還願意講開放政府，還願意當成口號或者是精神，或者至少給唐鳳一個空間，未來的政府會怎麼樣，我說真的是不知道，因此未來有一些事，可以讓它比較留在裡面會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "當然制度化很重要。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "這個是我個人的想法。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "國家的成敗跟大選的成敗不是靠這個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "子維講的是先求不傷選票？" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "不是傷選票的問題。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "不然我們可以說服他，例如如果做open contracting，或透明政治獻金等，也許境外的金流會更容易被發現（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "琬梅", "speech": "這個會非常吸引人的。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "像這個會具體解決社會問題，或者正當性的來源，不能一邊說他寫了paper、簽什麼約，另外一邊是大家覺得這個問題沒有解決、那個問題沒有解決，社會還是一樣，這個感受上還是會有落差的，這並不是選票上的問題，人民感受事實上是會有落差的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實。這就是為什麼我們花大部分的力氣，都不是待在台北。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們一直去巡迴，試著把這個概念落實到地方，不然我們在台北做得再多，地方沒有感受到也是沒有感受到。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "好，我ok了。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "所以接下來action item是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，先加一個群組，先盤點進去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，想一下和加拿大的公民科技社群，或者是政府科技社群一起做的題目。不一定要有合約，有題目就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，我這邊會跟怡君討論一下，看用什麼方式扣合未來「數位發展處」的施政規劃。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "如果有需要以民間團體的身份，也陪同去這些部會，我也可以幫忙，在還沒離開 OCF 之前。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "另外，大松要不要提案？" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "這個我們會後決定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這次我不會去大松。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "在信件群組裡面，也討論一下我們要做哪一些事的里程碑吧。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "會push看看要點？我可以問一下可行性嗎？因為沒有一個像兩公約的東西放在那裡，法制作業誰做就是一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "Isabel", "speech": "我覺得現在push要點太早了，因為沒有人認領下來，要讓大家都在裡面才比較……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，除非聯合國忽然決定這個要納入《公政公約》，作為新的〈任擇議定書〉……" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "但是有一些國家變成是國內的，也還沒有到法律，但是就是規則，也就是要update。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個非常好，但邏輯上必須要是我們在加拿大公開意向之後，要先說服兩位首長，接著才會探尋要點的可行性。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "聽起來是你要push外交部長跟主委一起去參加5月的summit？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是這樣，只是派這兩個部會的同仁去、確保執行的人有聽懂。也就是說，不僅是社群的人跟我在那邊，而是實際有執行能力的人。" }, { "speaker": "阿端", "speech": "瞭解。謝謝大家今天來，我先把這個群組建立起來，逐字稿再給大家，我們改一改再出去，群組先來加有開開會的人，要再對外的話，就等逐字稿結束以後。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "逐字稿會用sandmd讓大家編輯，也就是在行政院裡面跑的一套hackmd，據說IE11之外都可以打得開，用一些比較有支援的瀏覽器就可以編輯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "本院卓秘書長、唐鳳政委、Kolas Yotaka發言人、各位青諮會委員及各部會代表，大家午安、大家好！" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "我非常榮幸有機會代表行政院頒發證書給各位委員，剛剛一一跟大家簡單交談以後，我覺得非常敬佩各位委員的努力，特別是各位委員的專長或所從事的工作，對於臺灣未來的發展是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "本院為了讓施政更能夠接近青年的需求，所以在105年11月開始特別成立行政院青年諮詢委員會，今天是第二屆第一次的會議。第一屆青諮會的歷次開會過程中，我也親自主持過幾次，我覺得效果非常好，因為青諮會是本院與青年之間的橋樑，除了委員可以在青諮會提供意見及提案以外，也可以就你們的提案或意見去拜訪各部會，去瞭解你們的理念到底有沒有落實，或者是各部會的政策有沒有接近青年的需求，這個機制是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "本院為了解決臺灣城鄉落差的問題，並進一步達到均衡臺灣的目標，將於明年推出「地方創生國家戰略計畫」，我剛剛一一跟各位委員交談，發現大家都可以幫得上忙，這個計畫如果要成功、人真的很重要，在座每位委員都學有專精，也都很有熱忱，從事的工作甚至多半已經是地方創生的工作範圍。希望各位青諮會委員除了提供青年政策相關建言以外，也能夠就地方創生計畫給我們一些指教與支持，讓整個計畫的推動能夠更加順利成功，謝謝大家！" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "院長、各位長官、青年委員大家好，我是黃彥嘉，我現在在由科思有限公司，英文是UXTesting擔任執行長暨共同創辦人。我本身比較特別，研究所是在清華大學唸科技法律研究所，三年前意外踏入了網路創業，所以現在是一個tech founder。三年前很幸運地，在同一年我們團隊就被全球第二大的網路創業加速器Techstars入選，因此成為了臺灣歷史上第一隊全由臺灣人組成的台灣團隊加入這個加速器的行列。而這個加速器本週也在小巨蛋舉辦他們第一次官方的新創活動Techstars Startup Week Taiwan。另外我自己本身是國發會推薦擔任委員的，在網路創業，包括人才引進、國際交流這方面議題較有著墨，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "大家好，我是黃偉翔，Skills for U執行長，我也是第一屆委員，很榮幸來到第二屆。先用一點時間分享，上個禮拜剛好跟勞動部，我是中華民國代表團的團員，參加亞洲技能競賽，除了體育奧運之外，其實我們在技職或學技能的人們，也有類似像奧運比賽，這一次是首屆亞洲技能競賽（WorldSkills Asia）在阿布達比，我們這一屆得了五金五銀及三銅，我覺得是非常好的成績。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "有關於我們組織，我主要做三個部分：第一個是技職相關的政策參與，像教育、經濟、勞動、國發這幾個部會，多半是教育、勞動部會；第二個，我們透過民間一些比較親民的方式讓社會看見，像前陣子是帶技職國手結合新課綱，新課綱預備了一些課程，帶高職生改造偏鄉校園。其實SDGs有很多社會永續或社會議題，學技能的孩子，其實技能可以對到不同的領域，像水資源有海事水產類等等，我們期望可以展開這個用技能與社會對話圖像；最後一個是國際參與。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "最後我想分享的是，這一屆除了技職教育勞動這一塊，我們在上一屆比較關注之外，這任期會特別關注新聞媒體像假新聞等等，第二個部分是關於非營利組織的扶持，因為我們很多社會角色是在非營利組織，這大概是關於我這任期的任務。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "最後，在這一屆會做經驗傳承的角色，像提案到運作，這個是我們第一屆到第二屆的委員可以扮演的角色。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "院長、各位長官、委員及夥伴們大家午安，我是Impact Hub Taipei的陳昱築，我在江湖上行走，大家都叫我Rich，因為希望有錢，大家都知道要拼經濟，這是院長所說的（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "前面兩位委員都有提到，像第一位委員是屬於科技創業，偉翔提到的是SDGs，這兩個都是我們在做的事，但這兩個我們是偏向社會面的，我們是一個全世界最大的創新組織，我們2015年在英國倫敦成立之後，在全世界開枝散葉，現在在全世界有一百多個據點，都是實體的據點，在這個據點推動或者是跟當地的政府、企業合作推動當地社會創新的工作，這個是我們在做的事。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "另外，我們也跟聯合國總部有簽約，所以我們在全世界各個城市都在做聯合國永續發展目標SDGs的推廣，這一件事也是讓臺灣可以走出去的方式，我們在9月的時候有去聯合國周邊的會議代表臺灣去發聲，我們前面坐了一排中國的青年，我們說來自臺灣，他們露出很恐怖的臉看著我們，我覺得這個是民間外交可以走出去的方式，這個是呼應唐政委所說的，暖實力這一件事是我們很重視的。" }, { "speaker": "陳昱築", "speech": "另外，我們在臺灣做的是社會創新的培育，因此有孵化器，接下來也會有加速器，各位要解決的是社會問題，我們給你很多工具、連結，接著是有國際參與及資源，這個是我們在提供的。我們其實從三年前創業到現在，我們沒有拿過政府任何一毛補助、靠自己的力量撐到現在，接下來是必須要跟政府一起合作，在全臺灣一起創新，這個跟地方創生息息相關，希望加入到青諮會之後，可以跟政府、委員合作，一起打拼，我相信會越來越好，真的，我很相信。" }, { "speaker": "鄭亦麟", "speech": "院長、各位長官、各位夥伴大家好，我叫鄭亦麟，目前是在經濟部綠能科技產業推動中心服務，我們的工作主要是扮演政府跟企業間的溝通橋梁，幫助這個產業或者是協會的聲音傳達給政府，也幫忙政府把這一些資源告訴給產業。" }, { "speaker": "鄭亦麟", "speech": "大家知道綠能推動是政府目前非常重要的政策，這個是新的產業，所以這兩年來非常多的年輕人投入這個行業，更有很多人從原本的行業轉到這個新的領域，相較之下雖然挑戰，但十分具備憧憬，而且更重要的是，綠能可以結合環境再造、地方創生的配合(漁村轉型、原民部落)，目前綠能產業讓許多人看到很好的未來。" }, { "speaker": "鄭亦麟", "speech": "同時，其實我在從事這行業之前，我在外商的金融機構服務，具備公部門、私部門的經驗，更知道如何跟企業做溝通，把企業的聲音作為行政部門施政的參考，也能夠幫忙政府將更好的資訊傳達給企業，這個是我目前的工作，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "院長、副召集人及各位長官，大家好，大家可以叫我的Danny，叫我Danny比較自在，叫我全名，我可能會發抖一下。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "我目前服務的公司為七銘企業，七嘉光學工業，一個是做進口、一個是做偏光鏡片的原料，另外一個身分是在工業總會擔任本屆青年委員會的教育長，我們定調今年的主題是「How to stand up in the new world」，因為二代或者是在企業當中準備要接班的傳承，可以讓他更順利一代傳承到一代下去，可以讓整個經濟的活絡更加發展。" }, { "speaker": "何明原", "speech": "今年也加強與其他青年委員會的橫向交流，像三三青年會、工商協進會的青年會，我們工業總會年委員會應邀與三三青年會在今年7月到日本做參訪及交流，在謝長廷代表寓所有一個晚宴，也邀請了現任首相的弟弟及日本青年議會成員一起參加我們的活動，也是做民間交流，希望未來還可以有更多的機會幫助臺灣走出去，讓更多人認識我們，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "江鑑城", "speech": "院長、長官及各位朋友大家好，我叫江鑑城，我們公司是好物飛行，公司名稱為「好會飛」，為什麼叫好會飛？我們在三年多前的時候，我之前負責國發基金相關的業務，在投資的時候，其實我focus在網路產業，但我看到一個非常可怕的訊息，所有的網路產業，大家做的叫做侵門踏戶地去侵略國家的領土，所有的品牌透過網路在攻城略地，但臺灣卻一直走不出去，所以在三年多前的時候，我就跟夥伴飛到東南亞開始創辦這個公司。" }, { "speaker": "江鑑城", "speech": "我們做的是一個平台、提供跨境服務，服務了三百個品牌，銷售一百多萬個商品在馬來西亞，我們在馬來西亞準備蓋倉庫，明年會在新加坡、印尼成立新公司，希望透過我們的服務，讓臺灣的品牌、在跨境的生意越來越簡單，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "院長、各位長官、委員們大家好，我是梓容，大家可以叫我Mandy。我是生科系畢業，目前任職於做經營數據公司，我最早是從科技部的創業輔導計畫出身，加入台北市政府的創業輔導計畫，認識這個團隊三、五年之後，覺得要幫這個團隊從技術變成商品，所以就變成新創公司。" }, { "speaker": "洪梓容", "speech": "我們公司所研發的是全亞洲第一套的經營數據平台，應該也是全亞洲唯一一套。我自己想做的事是幫助科技新創、生技新創能夠更快速發展，因為比起大家耳熟能詳的一些產品，這一些技術新創跟一般人溝通的橋梁其實是比較缺乏的，這也是我這兩年想要幫助的一個產業發展，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "院長、各位長官、委員大家好，我是彭仁鴻，我目前本身也是斜槓青年，除了剛剛有提到蘭城巷弄的部分外，我在教育電台也有主持青年返鄉創業的廣播節目，還有從事高教深耕，目前在東吳商學院以地方創生人才為育成為課程，正在進行當中。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "目前所在的這一個蹲點的據點是在我的故鄉的宜蘭頭城，那是蘭陽平原第一條商業街，我們承租的是頭城第七屆鎮長，叫做邱金魚的故居，所以我們匿名叫做「金魚。厝邊」，我們主要是立於地方創生、社區營造相關方面的推動。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "連續四年舉辦頭城老街藝術季，透過在地職人的挖掘研發在地相關的職人體驗，因此希望在108年課綱，可以將學生與在地知識與經濟可以作連結。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "其實我從大學至今都不斷地參與地方的公共事務，比方來說是從大學參與青年署相關，不管是GISD或者是青年社區行動參與計畫，到文化部的青年村落，以及宜蘭縣事務委員會的副召集人之類的，這都是我從大學到現在一路參與的。" }, { "speaker": "彭仁鴻", "speech": "今年開始也參與了國發會的設計翻轉地方創生，主要的文化場域是從小鎮延伸到宜蘭最北部的石城，這是一個人口不到七十人的漁村，也希望在明年地方創生部分，我們能夠有更多的夥伴一起推動、響應，很高興加入青諮大家庭，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "嚴天浩", "speech": "大家好，我是嚴天浩，我現在唸成大大三的時候，投入到偏鄉教育，成立了LIS教學平台的非營利組織，我開始到偏鄉，其實看到最大的問題是，偏鄉的孩子不缺所謂的學習資源，其實是缺學習動機、真正教給他們能力的東西，所以我們那邊看到這樣的現象、開始投入到教材的研發，開始試著針對這樣的孩子設計一系列的教材，可以培養孩子的能力，透過科學的這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "嚴天浩", "speech": "所以其實在這一個過程中，我們在過去這三年研發出一系列的科學教材，現在涵蓋了國中小自然科學的範疇，全臺灣大概有10-15%的老師在用我們的影片和教材，所以走在路上，常常有人會找我簽名。" }, { "speaker": "嚴天浩", "speech": "我們期待這一些教材，並期待協助臺灣的老師（偏鄉、都市），試著透過科學教孩子怎麼做，我們也很期待跟政府合作，除了由下而上推動以外，也可以由上而下一起合作推動108課綱的理念，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "大家好，我是韓定芳，現在是青少年表演藝術聯盟的團長，這十年來我都是透過劇場藝術去陪伴臺灣青少年，到現在已經超過1萬5,000名了，我們服務的對象除了包含一般就學青少年之外，還有中輟生、高關懷安置機構的青少年，把戲劇視為媒介，讓戲劇裡面團隊合作的特性更加溝通，如何規劃我的系成為什麼樣規劃藍圖、實踐的過程，都可以走到青少年的心裡面，甚至面對特殊青少年的時候，我們可以透過戲劇的手法來瞭解現在的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "韓定芳", "speech": "青少年、弱勢青少年文化、教育的這個領域，一直都是我非常關注的議題，我希望可以跟大家分享這十年來陪伴青少年看見很珍貴美好、不美好的事情，我們一起想如何讓它變更好，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "院長、各位委員大家好，我是見域工作室的君薇，我們想做的事是讓大家重新看見地方，看見地方的美、看見地方各式各樣的資源，所以我們一開始在新竹各地採集各式各樣的地方故事，轉譯成文化載體，包含我們做的媒體是「貢丸湯雜誌」及小旅行等等，讓各行各業的人透過我們的平台認識在地，我是文化部推薦過來的，其實我們這三年來跟很多局處合作。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "其實發現有一個小小的問題，可能各局處間不太清楚別局處的限制及相關進行的事項，很高興有這個機會參與青諮大家庭。我想要舉我11月剛跟仁鴻參加文化部交流團，其實受訓跟地方創生都是有不同的取經可以參與，像我們參訪了用水利發電推動社區營造，藉由一起做社區綠能，連結社區大家的情感。" }, { "speaker": "吳君薇", "speech": "其實在青諮會裡面跟不同的部會交流，未來臺灣也勢必可以透過更多的對話及合作，也會有更好的未來，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "院長、各位好，我是李欣，我現在是臺灣大學政治學習國際外交組三年級的學生，我自己不管是對資源分配或者是權利運作關係的政府如何運作這一件事很有興趣。除此之外，對於社福這一塊很有興趣，因為我從高中開始一直做教育的志工，一直到現在，因此對於教育這一個議題是非常有興趣的，因此我自己雙主修社工學系。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我自己是第一屆青年諮詢委員，很榮幸在第二屆還能夠有機會在這邊跟大家一起努力，如果有一些心得也想分享給大家作經驗參考，未來在教育議題這一塊有想要一起推動，也希望可以一起討論，希望未來兩年可以一起合作，也希望為臺灣做更多的事情。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "大家好，我是曾廣芝，大家可以叫我的綽號小工，因為曾廣芝比較像教授在點名會叫的名字，大家叫我小工就好了。我大學是唸公共衛生，公共衛生是一門跨領域的學門，包含了預防跟促進。像剛剛提到的永續發展，這個也是公衛會care的議題，因為都與健康、環境息息相關。我個人大學的時候專題是做社區，也就是如何看社區的健康狀態與環境，如何促進健康與進行健康傳播。至於現在。一樣在北醫唸公衛領域的研究所，只是現在是focus在傷害防治這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "我現在也同時在環保署的open data諮詢小組及臺北市青年事務委員會擔任委員，很高興這一次來行政院青諮跟大家一起互動，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "賴院長、卓秘書長、唐鳳政委，大家好，我現在是在召集管理公司任職，我最關注這個政策，也就是現在居住方面的議題及住宅方面的政策。我們公司本身就是在推動現在政府主力推廣的社會住宅包租代管，包含包租代管在發展過程非常快速。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "像我早上的時候，早上之所以在2點前10分鐘才趕到，因為我早上剛好跟一個士林家族盤點物件與土地，他們會跟我們接觸，因為現在政府有推動包租代管的產業，像物件交給我們的時候，他們有相關節稅的優惠，其實就這一年裡面，我們公司負責台北、新北、桃園及高雄四都的運作，在這裡面，其實我們會發現已經有越來越多的房東，雖然今年第一年的試辦計畫，的確成效相對有限，但是其實還有一個租金的上限在，像台北市，房東的房子要申請，只有1萬8,000元的租金上限，其實在台北的租金水平上是相對低的。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "舉新北市的例子，新北市有一個建設公司，是把整個社區三百多戶的房子全部申請為社會住宅（透過我們），其實對他們來講相關的優惠與政策福利很多，因此越來越多很多家族型或者已經足夠年長、沒有相關管理能力的這一些房東，開始考慮與瞭解這樣計畫的內容，因此我們公司打算未來明年臺灣更多的縣市放足夠多的資源來做政策的推廣，因此在整個政策的大方向上，事實上不管是對房東或者是房客的權益或者是業者的成長、產業發展都非常有幫助，因此這也是我成為青諮委員的想法，我也希望能夠強化透過我們不管是業者的角度、青諮的角度或者是公協會的角度，能夠跟政府有更多全面地溝通，大方向非常地好，因此我們也很希望中央能夠持續地支持這個政策的推動。" }, { "speaker": "葉智文", "speech": "我們接下來希望進行更多政策配套的細緻化與優化，以上是我的分享，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "大家好，我是林筱菁。我們團隊是在致力於推動食魚教育，現在許多單位推食農教育為主，比較少人關注養殖漁業推廣，我們在台南七股推動這一件事。我們關注的食魚教育是跟在地七股偏鄉的教學，讓他們認識家鄉的產業，如何傳承跟回到家鄉來回饋養殖漁業如何變得更好。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "另外，讓一般大眾瞭解養殖漁業是在做什麼，讓大家瞭解七股特色比較有生態、友善環境的養殖，我們也透過一般的活動或者是體驗，讓大家深入瞭解這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "另外一個部分，我們也關注如何讓大學生、青年可以到農漁村去參與這一些議題的發展，因此我們舉辦一些工作坊、訓練營，讓大學生瞭解這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林筱菁", "speech": "另外一個部分，七股最近也談到養殖漁業跟綠能間的關係，因此也關心漁電共生方面的議題，也很高興可以加入青諮的大家庭。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "院長、各位長官大家好，我是鐘偉庭，目前是國立高雄科技大學的博士生，我的專長領域是包含防火工程、避難驗證及火災模擬。近幾年主要是參與內政部建築研究所的案子，其中包括一些臺灣目前使用建築物防火避難安全性能驗證技術手冊，也就是說，高層建築或是住商合併的建築，都必須要經過這本手冊來進行驗證，確認建築內的人是安全的，煙不影響人的避難，目前這本手冊已經有進行改版，目前已經由內政部建研所來出版，市面上可以買到的書籍。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "有關於防火建材的後市場管理機制，防火建材實際裝修之後，拿到使用執照之前，我們來對比是否真的是裝一樣的東西，還有做一些有關火災模擬的部分，像隧道模擬，比如東澳隧道，也就是臺灣蘇花改的東澳隧道來驗證隧道中發生火災，哪裡是安全的，我們需要怎麼做、車要怎麼開、水要怎麼灑、風機要怎麼作動，才能確保開車的人是安全的。" }, { "speaker": "鐘偉庭", "speech": "我們也有到隧道現地去實驗，放火燒燒看，驗證隧道整體設備作動的情況，事實上真的是安全的，也有到高雄衛武營國家藝術文化中心裡面放把火，驗證整體排煙設備的作動情況，確認各廳院的安全性，我的研究項目是有關於建築安全與防火，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "院長、各位委員大家好，我是徐健智，我們在新竹縣峨眉鄉十二寮是一個只有一百二十個人的小村落，面積120公頃，臨峨眉湖與彌勒大佛，在地盛產東方美人茶與柑橘。我們在那邊做地方創生與在地社區與周遭產官學連結、社區營造、創業家培訓、生態教育與地方學及各種推廣活動。" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "我們透過食、衣、住、行、育、樂的再建構，免費生活圈的新生活模式，" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "食的部分：阿婆手作料理與菜園、生態農園、食物森林、地下冰箱、沼氣BBQ、共食" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "衣的部分：How客吧-coworking space" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "住的部分：國際志工、打工換宿、coliving" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "行的部分：搭便車" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "育的部分：食農教育、生態環境教育、論壇、培力課程" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "樂的部分：綠色永續旅遊、免費商店、藝術家駐村、社區報" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "能源：太陽能、小水力" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "水源：埤塘、雨水搜集、中水回收" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "我們還有做線上的時間銀行APP，在時間銀行的APP中，每個人可以發揮自己的次要專長與技能，用自己的專長技能與零碎的時間幫助別人解決問題同時也提升自己的技能，並換時間幣來解決自己的問題(人力需求或物資需求)，然後再透過系統內的無條件基本收入再分配機制，讓每個人都可以獲得一樣的資源，去解決生活中的問題。" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "而這個封閉式循環的補充貨幣系統，希望能夠改善現在社會上的經濟(債務貨幣)、生態矛盾(利益極大化)的問題，因為問題的本質在於資本主義與消費主義的唯物觀架構。" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "透過現下的免費生活圈與線上的時間銀行APP雙軌併行，讓更多人能加入這個平台，改變生活狀態並擴大影響力改善現在資本主義下帶來的矛盾。" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "粉絲專頁：https://www.facebook.com/12liao/" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "影音資料：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMwj0KsAAOo" }, { "speaker": "Valagas Gadeljeman", "speech": "《族語招呼》大家好，我是Valagas，來自屏東，昨天才剛上來。很高興再一次當第二屆的青諮委員，第一屆也是，第二屆很開心能夠跟幾個夥伴留下來（笑），繼續堅持。" }, { "speaker": "Valagas Gadeljeman", "speech": "因為青諮委員的工作很特別，我本身在社區是做組織工作，前五年就回屏東老家去，在原住民部落，你要做社區工作是非常困難的事，台大城鄉所畢業之後，五年前因為莫拉克風災，我就回去社區做一些青年培育或組織的工作。每一次回台北，我都覺得很療癒，因為離開部落，很多事情都可以變得比較放鬆一點，可是今天要穿比較正式，有一點緊（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Valagas Gadeljeman", "speech": "介紹一下我的背景，因為我是唸城鄉規劃，所以我回去之後就開始跟社區的婦女或者是青少年做一些培力的工作，但是很困難，因為部落的人不知道什麼叫組織，在你們的文件上有看到一個是副秘書長，這個職位不是我爭取的，而是部落的族人歷經這幾年好像可以做一點事情，而且是負的，不能做正的，因為正的都要給長輩做，所以在社區工作還有很多事要做調適。" }, { "speaker": "Valagas Gadeljeman", "speech": "我回屏東之後，也回去一所大學兼課，剛好有機會碰到教育部的在地計畫，有很多的一些計畫跟原民會、教育部、社區有很多連結，因此自詡自己是一個社區營造工作者，因為我很喜歡做這一件事，也就是協調的工作，我的名字是Valagas，我的名字在2015年正名回來，並不是受Kolas的影響，當然我是她的粉絲，我是因為去聯合國，參加被丟過護照，我就覺得回來一定要改名字叫做Valagas，因為胡哲豪聽起來是華人的名字，這個時候要有一點笑聲（笑），因為Valagas無法辨認是臺灣人或者是中國人，他們會以為我是歐洲人，所以大家不要叫我哲豪，請叫我Valagas，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "何子斌", "speech": "院長、各位委員大家午安，我本身是彰化人，今年就讀臺灣大學國際企業學系二年級，我本身比較關注的議題是東南亞在臺灣的移工、新住民，主要是東南亞的。" }, { "speaker": "何子斌", "speech": "我本身是臺灣跟越南的混血兒，在大一的時候，我有在台北某個新住民基金會當社工，因為有很多小朋友，就是因為一些因素，小時候會被帶回去，可能是東南亞或者是某個國家，長大之後才被帶回來，他們的語言其實在這邊是會有溝通上的困難，因此如果有人來聽他們，我覺得在那個基金會裡面，教國語教學。" }, { "speaker": "何子斌", "speech": "像我會關心臺商在東南亞的發展，我在今年暑假的時候，有申請民進黨婦女的一份計畫有去越南的台商實習，我應該是這裡面資歷最淺的，我就不多說了，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "鍾雨恩", "speech": "大家好，我叫雨恩，我來自花蓮富里，我叫雨恩，我的朋友都說我注定要回鄉從農，我目前確實都在從事農業推廣的工作，不知道大家有沒有聽過「花蓮富里」？在花蓮最南端的鄉鎮，南接台東池上，所以我去伯朗大道可能會比較近一點，這樣介紹可能會比較清楚地理位置。" }, { "speaker": "鍾雨恩", "speech": "富里其實是一個全臺灣有機耕作密度最高的鄉鎮，我這幾年也在農村，正如院長所說的，明年是地方創生元年的話，讓年輕人回到家鄉，那個是最大的動力，讓年輕人回鄉，這幾年不是只有理想而已，還有很多現實必須要考量的，所以在這幾年也透過不同的方式來擾動農村。" }, { "speaker": "鍾雨恩", "speech": "為什麼說擾動？希望透過這樣的擾動來改變現在農村的一些現況，像人口外移跟高齡化的問題，如果都是現存之下，我們是不是可以透過一些方式來擾動它，因此透過音樂節、小旅行及各種不同的方式來讓大家認識農村，找回臺灣農村的價值。" }, { "speaker": "鍾雨恩", "speech": "除此之外，我本來不是唸農的，我是學社會福利，是長期關注，因此關注長照的議題，大家都走出國際以外，也希望透過在地來展現臺灣農村最美好的價值，很高興可以跟各位委員一起在這邊共識，如果大家有空的話，希望到富里來玩。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "院長、各位長官、青諮同學們大家好，我是來自台中的泰雅族，我跟哲豪委員一樣是原住民，我會說我是純種的，大家說我不太像，因為爸爸、媽媽、阿公、阿嬤都是，我目前是在「有限責任新北市原住民電腦資訊勞動合作社」裡面擔任理事主席，也是執行長。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我目前在做的一些計畫是，因為勞動合作社其實過去都是傳統勞務，像搬運、運輸、農業相關的，我們存在就是提醒我們政府知道現在勞動合作社有資訊了、行銷了，相關勞動都在這裡面，所以希望未來在輔導的機制上能夠有一些改變。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我是十年前成立合作社，去年成立行銷合作社，今年又在創意臺灣原住民合作社聯盟，前幾天有到原民會跟長官討論未來聯盟可以有什麼樣的發展，期望能夠成為第一個原住民的聯合社，這個部分對於原住民的勞動合作社是非常有力的。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "這兩個月去別的地方授課，會把TIC的概念放在這裡面，9日在臺大發表一篇論文，其實我們可以參考過去像臺灣是MIT，我覺得TIC可以變成臺灣勞動合作社一個品牌的概念，因為現在勞動合作社真的越來越辛苦，像現在目前來講有三百五十三家的合作社登記在案，但是實際有在營運的政府是一百零一家，我們自己統計有做一些交流，其實不到八十家。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "我們的TIC，目前來講裡面的成員都是有實際營運的，大概有十六家，目前還是持續招募，也希望未來能夠效仿像過去大概在七、八年前，像我們的捷安特跟美利達進軍歐美的概念，但是他們是國際化，我希望縮小版變成臺灣版。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "目前來講TIC是有一些長官、朋友，真的一直努力推動這一塊，我也希望未來如果真的可以成形的話，目前原民會有一些輔導的機制，但是其實是非常缺，原民會長官不知道有沒有在現場，輔導的力道非常不足，我同時也是原住民勞動合作社的諮詢委員，我們常常提一些概念計畫，但是沒有積極被落實。" }, { "speaker": "林家豪", "speech": "尤其我們又是年輕人，過去的長輩都有一個概念是我們都退休了、交給你們了，但是只剩下我了，因此就是現在提到合作社可能會把我拿出來講，因此這一種情況如果未來能夠得到像A-Team一樣，像三年前有一個做太陽能的，有三家太陽能的廠商，向經濟部有提一個計畫，大概是46億的概念，但是經濟部給的我沒有記錯是48億，或者是更多，但是有一個理事進去他們的團隊裡面來監督，我也期望聯盟產生之後，能夠得到一些挹注，就勞動合作社來講可以復甦起來，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "潘苾祈", "speech": "院長、各位長官、委員，大家好，我是潘苾祈，我是客家人，目前就讀台大森林環境暨資源學系，我比較熟悉的領域是客家文化，對於環保議題也很感興趣，希望未來能發揮所長並多多服務社會，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "在我主持之前，我有一個問題想請教阿斌，會不會講母語？" }, { "speaker": "何子斌", "speech": "會。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "在家裡媽媽有教你嗎？" }, { "speaker": "何子斌", "speech": "有。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "我在台南的經驗是，我們也有很多學校，裡面一半以上的孩子是新住民的孩子，可是媽媽沒有教他母語，所以我在台南市市長任內，我要求校長要在學校要求老師，老師要鼓勵新住民的孩子在家裡要學母語。這個嚴重到什麼程度呢？有一次我在頒發市長獎的時候，我看媽媽是新住民，我問孩子會不會講媽媽的母語，他跟我搖頭說不會，那個很嚴重，我問他會不會講「爸爸」，他也說不會，臺灣未來新南向就要靠你們了。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "大家有沒有什麼問題要拿出來討論的？時間寶貴喔！臺灣傳統通常都要等到時間快結束時才急著要講。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "委員黃偉翔發言，我也幫其他委員問，第一屆的列管有延續嗎？" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "第一屆的案子當然會持續列管。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "另外還有沒有委員想發言？" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我不確定是不是要接著他說「委員黃彥嘉」發言，不是很熟悉（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我其實想快速提一下，這兩年大概飛了快五十個國家，特別是我到東南亞出差的時候，因為我是協助Techstars這個加速器在亞洲的業務推展，所以我開始到各國去。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我舉一個例子，今年一月越南參加一個活動，大概來了五百人左右聽我的創業分享，我在隔一天的早上醒來，發現我的email怎麼暴增了六十幾封信，因為我收了五十幾封履歷是來自於當天聽我演講的越南人，五十幾封裡面有100％都會說四個語言，越南文、法文、英文及中文，我非常意外的是這一些履歷全部都低於26歲（投履歷的人），我找了胡志明政府的人，去問說這個城市怎麼回事，怎麼大家這麼年輕，大家的語言這麼好？" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "這三年的創業經驗中，我在國際與人才在交流的時候，我發現以前對於語言的認知是錯的，語言只是跨文化國際化最基本的。現在臺灣社會給我的感覺是，大家覺得國際化需要英文，大家認為英文教育很重要，但英文只是一種溝通工具而已，文化的了解才是國際交流的關鍵。這也就造就我在國外出差時，我都盡量可以跟外國人住、相處。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我一直也感覺，我們其實從教育上得到的知識，包括鮮少跟不同國家的人交流，因此我們都誤以為英文溝通沒有問題，我們就很全球了，但是以我隔人的經驗來講，其實這個認知是錯誤的，因為我在美國的時候，剛剛也跟唐政委分享說，我這三年最大的改變是，我在美國把溫良恭儉讓丟到腦後，在美國你說話不大聲、你不主動表達你的意見，沒有人理你，包括我們在矽谷募資一樣，這麼多的投資人為何要投你這個團隊，你要展現表達出你的優勢。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我這個議題提出來，想要讓大家發想的是，雖然我還沒有結婚，但是我很擔心下一代，學校有教很多種語言沒有錯，但是他們在課本所學習到的東西是不是他們真的可以去瞭解文化。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "像在座可能大家都有印象，小時候開始會考哪一個國家是中立國，大家會填瑞士，2分就拿到了，但我當跟瑞士人相處時，才知道原來瑞士有法語區、德語區，這兩區的人是不往來的，因為文化歷史背景，因為他們國家有很多政策是得不到過半的支持，因此對外保持中立，我想表達的就是在這一些例子上，我發現到以前所學到的資訊，特別是來自媒體、課本，好像沒有真正培育出我們的國際觀，這個是我非常擔憂的。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我非常慶幸這三年的經驗，當我已經認識一百四十二個國家的人，像我最近認識了不丹人、烏茲別克的人，我才知道這些國家的經濟、歷史背景、及優勢特色產業。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我拋出這個議題是，我這三年跟歐美企業做生意的時候，我發現他們都會問我一個問題，這一間公司五年、十年後希望有什麼影響力。但是這一年回來亞洲做生意的時候，我發現亞洲的公司會問我這一檔交易是多少錢，身為臺灣人，我感覺到自己以前很大的缺點，就是比較缺乏長期的投資與規劃。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我也不確定是不是經濟相較於歐美沒有那麼好，因此我們急著搶錢，但是我一直提醒自己，包含現在經營公司，我想的都是五年後、十年後，我的團隊裡面有八個國籍的人，我從他們的身上學到一些觀點跟文化差異很有趣，有一個同事是荷蘭人，他最近到臺灣玩，我問他在臺灣有什麼最特別的或是很最荒謬的事，他問我說為什麼臺灣這麼小，但是捷運公司要這麼多，有北捷、機捷、中捷、高捷，我說這個問題不錯，可以問問院長。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "我剛剛也跟政委分享說，我在美國搭Uber的時候，司機都會問我從哪裡來的，我說I’m from Taiwan，非常多司機都會回我說I love Thai food，如果我累了就不想理他，如果不累就我就會開始解釋臺灣跟泰國的差別。" }, { "speaker": "黃彥嘉", "speech": "語言真的只是起點，一個國際交流的開端，包含我剛剛講的，在越南、泰國、汶萊出差，我發現這一些國家從小的母語就包含了英文，所以他們其實在跟其他國際社會交流溝通上，其實是沒有問題的，我只是把這一個議題拋出來，大家可以一起思考這一件事，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "謝謝彥嘉。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "聽你講了之後，我發現雙語國家可能不夠，可能要四語國家（笑），教育部范次長可以分享一下經驗。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "你講的沒有錯，英語是一個工具，學得很好不代表國際化，現在的問題是學英語，還沒有辦法有能力把英語當工具，大概只能很會考試，我們現在雙語國家就是要改變，而是提升英語力，以國家競爭力為目標，並不是以考試，而且也不限於學生，而是全民，現在已經在推了。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "其中有一部分也要讓國人知道全球的情況，像你剛剛講的我們缺少國際觀，嚴重到什麼程度？我們小時候唸的書都只唸中文、歷史、地理，我們都自己內化，好像我們是中國人，地大物博，你們這一輩可能比較不會，我們這一輩的人沒有把東南亞的國家看在眼底，坦白來講就是這樣，眼中就是美國、中國、歐洲、日本，但是東南亞國家每一個都比我們大，人口都比我們多，我們更應該跟他親近的，但是我們沒有，所以這都是未來教育應該可以改變的地方。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "至於你剛剛講說荷蘭人質疑我們怎麼會有這麼多的捷運局，因為台北捷運局是中央補助台北，高雄捷運是中央補助高雄，我當院長以後有發現這個問題，所以是不是可以讓台北捷運局經營，在前瞻基礎建設推動過程，我們有過一些想法與努力，但是碰到困難，因此還沒有完成，我作這樣的補充。" }, { "speaker": "范巽綠", "speech": "其實不管是阿斌，還有彥嘉，你們走出臺灣才看到寬廣的世界。臺灣的教育是嚴重國際化不足，我們正在推的新課綱，是由在地連結開始，你既要知道在地，也要知道國際，從小學開始就設計國際化課程，這也是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "范巽綠", "speech": "因此院長提到新南向，一開始推動的時候，才發現教育單位，如果我以高雄市為例，整個教育局同仁沒有新南向國家經驗，像越南、印尼都沒有去過，如果公部門是這樣子的話，怎麼會發出一個很好的政策，因此有計劃帶著同仁及校長們進行新南向國家交流，有了實際經驗，才知道原來新南向國家發展的速度如此快。" }, { "speaker": "范巽綠", "speech": "你剛剛也提到他們會的語言非常地多，在高職專班裡面，來自印尼或者是越南的學生，華裔學生一定會印尼語、越南語、英語、華語、客家話、閩南話，掌握五六種語言非常普遍，因此就這一點來看，我們在教育體系的語言是非常呆板的，所以一定要讓新二代把自己的母語學好，並以自己的母國文化自豪，這也是臺灣走向多元文化、族群社會的第一步，新住民跟新二代的元素，要在國家裡到處都可以看得到，2019年8月就會從一年級必修新二代的母語了。" }, { "speaker": "范巽綠", "speech": "昨天行政院才通過雙語國家政策，其實整個大方向，就是活化英文的學習，學習英文是從小培養起來的，要是非常有趣的學習，而且願意終身去學習，透過科技的學習也變得非常方便，老師教學的方法要非常地活潑，讓他在生活中可以運用，學語言不是坐在教室、課本裡面就可以學習，是要各個面向的人都可以學習到，但最重要的是可以跟國際做朋友，臺灣小朋友從小就要有跟國際做朋友的能力。" }, { "speaker": "范巽綠", "speech": "其實我們是海洋島國，由新移民組成的國家，本來有很強的向外拓展冒險的DNA，但是在威權時代DNA不見，所以沒有向外打拼的精神，我看在座的委員都有冒險的DNA，他們做創新的事，這是青年委員會重要的事，會去影響我們的下一代，會影響我們的教育，我覺得老師們也要有機會出去看，自然不一樣，因此出去看是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "謝謝范次長。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "院長、各位夥伴大家好，剛剛有提到語言的問題，我想，像雙語政策其實有很多細節可以再瞭解與思考，首先，語言確實有工具的一面，但也有其他意涵在其中(後來補充:不同的文化與知識體系)。舉一個生活的例子，像我暑假去法國跟德國，一樣是歐元的地方，法國對於數字的觀念是20、20在算的，所以其實70是60加10(後來補充:soixante-dix，soixante代表60，dix代表10)，德國是先算個位數再加十位數，在學習語言或經歷之前，過去是沒有辦法理解的。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "但是不是每個人都應當或有機會像我和方才黃委員這樣出國，所以關於語言與國際化，以後是不是有其他的可能性，讓我們一起有更多的想像，這個是未來有很多都可以繼續探討。(後來補充:課綱大修基本上10年一次，前線老師們是否具備這樣的能量?若要維持這個政策方向，資源分配以及課綱都需要在下次課綱大修前，逐步盤點與檢視)" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "我們這一次有很多夥伴都是地方創生的夥伴，因此這個點是單純跟大家交流的。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "像我自己是在做公共衛生這一塊，我會更喜歡走進社區，去看見並試圖解決問題，比方像如何預防長者跌倒，很多長者都是一跌倒，接下來就有很多問題接踵而來。我看到很多地方創生的夥伴做的事情當中，他們做的事其實也是我們在衛生政策的方向。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "像我們會在意的是，比如現在的青年們要養老扶幼，像長照的問題、托育的問題，從單一的方向去解決，往往並不能獲得最好或者是相較好的解方。" }, { "speaker": "曾廣芝", "speech": "我們這邊有很多不同領域的人，期待大家一起互相交流、碰撞出一些新的東西，我們可以讓原本在做的事做得更好，也讓臺灣有一個更好的共生、共融的方式，這是我的一點意見分享，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "因為時間的關係，等一下還要選副召集人，在這個階段結束前，我特別拜託大家，本院所推動的地方創生計畫請大家多多支持，因為我來自台南，雖然是直轄市，但其實城鄉差距也很大，三十七個行政區，最多的行政區人口也不過是20幾萬人，最少不到1萬人，是5,000人至7,000人，我們想要推新創，也把以前台南縣議會變成新創的基地，但是我也很擔心會找不到人。所以，我說除了台南以外，大家多多幫忙其他的縣市，讓整個臺灣的地方創生可以成功。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "也只有地方創生成功，人才會回到故鄉，結婚生子也比較沒有壓力，才有辦法解決這些社會問題。因為人口減少，原因實在是太多了，不完全是經濟的原因，因此，如果有辦法讓年輕人回到故鄉，讓老年人可以安享天年、含飴弄孫。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "很慘！我發現一個很奇怪的現象，在台南。本身是勞工階級或者是農民，很重視教育，孩子書唸得不錯，結果他離開故鄉到台北或到其他地方，才有辦法找到他理想的工作。可是同樣都是農工階級，他年輕時對教育沒有那麼重視，他孩子就是在做木工、駕駛等一般工作，結果他反而孩子是在身邊，可以含飴弄孫，這是很矛盾的現象，因此地方創生如果可以成功，讓年輕人，像大家一樣，可以留在故鄉，然後帶動故鄉的發展，讓年輕人或下一代的人可以回到故鄉，我想整個社會會變得更好。" }, { "speaker": "賴清德", "speech": "接下來我就把時間交給唐鳳，謝謝大家！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "4點了，我們還有很多時間聊天，不過據說等一下要做選副召集人的動作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我是這一個部分的主持人，請大家緩慢移動回座位。我們等一下有三個議程，以下先告知今天投票的方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家知道這一次選舉合併公投，導致要投的人排隊排很久，其實還不是最苦命，最苦命的是計票人員，有些計票人員到半夜還沒有辦法回家，更不要說現在還要驗票。所以院長有一個具體的裁示是，希望能夠運用數位技術，讓不管是投公投票的感受或者是公投計票的感受會比較好，尤其選務人員不需要忙到半夜再回家，因為如果再繼續幾次下去，有多少人願意當選務人員都是個問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為現在要選副召集人，這個是要點所明訂，我們這一次就用電子方式來計票，等一下的進行程序先說明：每一個餐盒裡，都有隨機產生的六位數，我們裝的時候是選務跟票務是分離的，所以我不知道裡面哪一個餐盒裝哪一個數字。如果是素食者的話，也不會因為這樣子被profile，可以只抽紙條再換後面素的餐盒。等一下會先請大家隨便取一個，你要哪一個都無所謂，數字是在封口這邊，然後數字是向下的，所以只有拿的人才知道六位數的代碼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我們會請副召集人有興趣的，不一定是要自己侯選，對副召集人有想法的，大家先集思廣益、交換一下意見，因為第一屆青諮會，基本上副召集人是只有一位，主要每一次幕僚機關需要組織大家、通知大家的時候，副召集人會說到google日曆上面登打，或者是副召集人開了什麼FB群組，主要是線上的組織工作，接下來會有很多巡迴的工作，因此也不無可能副召集人會變成好幾位或是專門負責特定的地方活動或者是怎麼樣，但無論如何是必須要先從這一位副召集人長出來，所以至少需要組織熱忱的朋友，除此之外我也沒有別的想像，就看大家有什麼想像。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家現在如果對副召集人有什麼問題或者是想像，或者什麼樣的話，如果現在掃QR code或者是到sli.do鍵入181207，都可以直接留言、發問或直接進行意見交換，可以是匿名或具名，這是我們很常用sli.do的系統。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三步的程序是大家進行過意見交換，這個部分大概10幾、20分鐘之後，我會把這個網站切換到投票模式，基本上是只有兩題，一個是六位數代碼確保沒有灌票或者是其他的狀況，理論上經過20分鐘左右的意見交換，大家覺得自己可以來試試看，先當副召集人慢慢浮現，如果只有一個人願意的話，那就是一個人，如果兩個人願意的話，那就是單選題，如果有三個人以上，我們原則上是採選三個人裡面一個人或者是兩個人，都可以，等於是你自己挑的，所以整個選制的解釋就是這樣子，我們試試看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一屆真的用蓋的，然後從票櫃裡面拿出來還唱票，所以確實是花了相當多的時間，因此我們試試看用電子計票的方式，讓大家多一點、早一點時間交流，以上是全部程序的解釋，大家有沒有什麼問題？如果沒有的話，就麻煩進行領票的動作，這個先後順序完全沒有差別的，是可以併行化。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是第一屆青諮的話，是不是對當副召集人有沒有興趣？第二個，對副召集人的位置如果有什麼想像或者是想法或者是問題的話，是不是可以先提一下？我們在場是一屆青諮的是李欣、偉翔、健智。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我是委員黃偉翔。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我們在第一屆run下來，並不是第一屆副召集人做得不夠好，而是在第一屆的時候，我們很多制度都在run，到底副召集人要扮演什麼樣的角色，有人覺得要串起來，有人覺得要協助大家跟部會溝通時，也就是幫忙轉譯，也就是有很多期待，因此對於副召集人這一件事，到底需要具備什麼樣的功能，不管像唐鳳政委說有一位、兩位或者是三位，或者是有一點像班長、副班長之分，我覺得具體任務可以先訂出來，這一件事很重要。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來是要對治理機制有一定的瞭解，可以願意幫忙設計，也就是瞭解需求並設計出好的支持系統。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請李欣委員分享一下。" }, { "speaker": "李欣", "speech": "我覺得像剛剛偉翔剛剛提的，我們可以提一些我們的期待，然後有一些人可以先挖坑，有人可以跳進坑，大家可以先提一些，不一定要很具體的期待，只是一個方向，也就是可能負責聯絡的，如果這個人很願意跟大家去瞭解，很想要認識各個不同領域的人會適合，如果有一個也許是辦巡迴演講，很常在不同的鄉鎮去走，這個人也許是適合的，因此可以先提出來，大家也不用壓力太大，覺得這個坑跳進去是無底洞，如果大家一起來做，可能也許分工更明確或者是把工作負擔分出來，大家一起做，就不會這麼辛苦，這是提一點小小的建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先提醒一下拿麥克風發言會有逐字紀錄，在sli.do匿名留言也會有紀錄，這一整份是公開的，我們未來整個都是青諮會紀錄的一部分，所以馬上看到目前最多人按讚的意見，誰有興趣的快自首，當然自首的話是希望能夠用舉手的方式，如果在sli.do上舉手，我也不知道是自首或者是被自首。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請另外一位委員分享，我們接下來時間就給大家。" }, { "speaker": "徐健智", "speech": "我覺得副召集人要是非常有熱情，可能時間上要比較彈性，才有辦法把這一件事做好，像上一屆的副召集人是公司的創辦人，他的時間很多，並不會到出來還要請假。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來是要在PTT能夠當版主的程度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "感謝三位第一屆委員的分享，接下來有沒有開始願意自首？" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "可以推薦嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我推薦Rich，因為他的業務跟公司是串聯滿多單位，有人覺得副召集人需要政策溝通，但我覺得這一塊很重要，所以我覺得他很適合。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們統問統答，並不是即問即答。所以如果要拉票或者是推票是可以舉手的。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "我想請問一下，剛剛委員有提到希望架構，不只是一個副召集人，是不是除了副召集人之外，他需要什麼樣的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以變出各種各樣的架構，因為這一次為何要選副召集人，這個是要點明訂，如果不產生副召集人的話，這一次會結束。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個要點是為社會改的，當這個副召集人產生之後，比較像種子的地位，如果副召集人馬上決定需要三個組長或之類的，像現在有一個非常好的提議，一個是組織者、一個擅長事務體系的協調，我覺得這個很不錯，但是如果有人要自首的話，我覺得就可以說有組織的成分，但是不擅長事務體系的協調，又或者是反過來，因為在場的組織者非常多，我想大家的時間安排上，如果覺得我可以試試看的話，其實不妨就自首一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有興趣的？" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "我可以自首。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請選務人員加到投票的選項裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你會需要擅長事務體系的協助，或者是組織熱忱的協助嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "這個是今天要馬上決定嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是。只是詢問你。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "我覺得這個提議很好，可是我覺得還要再跟青年署的夥伴討論，像今年有特別多是要去不同的地方，3月就要馬上地方巡迴，我可以認第一個，我在宜蘭有點，我可以在宜蘭辦，因為我們有宜蘭青年交流中心。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有到11/26共識營的朋友，之前有提到有一個規劃，也就是會有一個移動青諮會，是在地的組織者，把青諮帶到那邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一站如果只是從台北移動到新北，好像有點近，所以希望是在雙北之外。" }, { "speaker": "Rich", "speech": "是不是請教前面第一屆委員，然後再把組織架構再抓幾個出來，然後再邀請大家，我會希望循這樣的模式，請大家合作跟協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還有沒有人有興趣？試試看，至少有政見發表的機會留在逐字稿裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Slido上有人問偉翔，願意不願意跳坑？" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "因為我剛剛推薦Rich，Rich適合。是只有一位還是兩位？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以多人。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "可以一起，那就一起列在上面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有朋友願意列這個想法或者是見解？有沒有匿名的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實還有3分鐘。如果有人願意，除了這兩位之外，我們就馬上列入參選人的名單裡面，而且也會有政見發表的時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有想要分享的？如果沒有的話，就下好離手了，我們就切換到投票模式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "恭喜當選！完成我們的應辦事項。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之後麻煩跟青年署合作，實際設計出一套可以運作的實驗性治理架構，我們也很感謝偉翔願意協助事務性上的協調。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，幕僚單位要我再提醒大家，從青諮會會前會、籌備會，包含正式大會，全部都有逐字紀錄，其實大家講的話都會話都會留下來，變成完整的脈絡，包含今天稍早跟院長對談等等，但不會馬上公開，因為這個是院內的會議，所以會有十個工作天的時間，也就是兩個禮拜之後，才會把這整個公布在青諮會的網站上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在兩個禮拜之間歡迎大家回去看自己的發言，一方面是確認自己發言的意思，二方面是有一些補充資料、調整，或者有一些希望看逐字稿的人，也希望額外看的，像剛剛有提到很多專案，如果有一些介紹短片、網址之類的話，都可以做補充資料，規則很簡單，每個人只修改自己的發言，當修改完之後，整個完整的逐字稿就會公布在青諮會的網站上，之後的每一次我主持、院長主持的會議都是用相同的紀錄原則。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以上完成了這一次的投票，看大家最後有沒有想要分享或是詢問的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我盡量不讓structured meeting佔太多時間，如果大家覺得應辦程序……請問幕僚，我們的程序是不是已經完成？" }, { "speaker": "蔡君蘋", "speech": "有開放謝票嗎（笑）？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有（笑），直播巡迴謝票，我想不用在這個位置做，好比可以到Impact Hub之類的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天所有法定要點必須完成事項就到這邊。非常感謝大家的參加，今天會議到這邊結束。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m sorry I can’t make it to the conference. Were you at the conference today?" }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "Yes, we just finished the session." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome, awesome." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Yeah, you can have the 30-second version." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s much better." }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "See, you stay in your office, you don’t go anywhere, the guy comes to you, he’s sitting there." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s fantastic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fantastic, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Look, I was asked to talk about the relationship between regulation and financial inclusion. It’s a good topic for our center, because we’re very global in scope. We are very focused on understanding what channels and instruments are emerging in the financial system outside of the incumbent system..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "...and why. I’m actually a sociologist by background, so I’m very interested in the intermingling of social movements and technology, and how that really produces, operationalizes some of this innovation. It’s not just the technology. This is a strong emphasis of my personal life." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We’re very interested in how all this stuff emerges and why, but also how does the system then respond. This gets into the regulatory realm. Hello." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Hello. Hi." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Hi." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Sorry for interrupting. Aurora Tsai." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Hi, Aurora. I’ll give you a card." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Ravi Vig", "speech": "Hello. Ravi. Nice to meet you." }, { "speaker": "Aurora Tsai", "speech": "Aurora." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our office has one staff from each ministry, at most." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s pretty good." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, very horizontal. Technically, we can have 34 staff, because we’re 34 ministries, but at the moment 22, and she’s the ministry of foreign affairs dispatch." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "In our case, the interesting phase of the market -- we look at this whole thing of fintech right now -- is the absorption by their system response, and of course regulation’s critical. It’s not going to be operationalized if the regulatory environment doesn’t enable it to be." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "This struggle that regulators have, where they’re really operating in a fundamentally different frame than they have historically operated in, introduces a whole bunch of challenges, whether it’s a talent issue, or whether it’s just the cultural issue, there’s a number..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Then the impact of that in financial inclusion...We gather data and we do analysis today, particularly in terms of online crowdfunding including pillar and all that stuff. It’s empirically a different research in about 185 countries, and we have five years’ worth of data." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "As a research center, by far the largest scale of research in that empirical analysis, that’s led to a joint venture with the World Bank, which is very focused on financial inclusion. All those data sets become available next quarter in a joint website that researchers can download." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Another very focused research area around alternative payment systems and tokenizer cryptoassets, and then a lot of work in regulatory innovation." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Some of the stuff I talked about today was drawn from a report we just finished for the United Nations...it’s a long -- UNSGSA, which is United Nations Secretary-General Special Advocate for Inclusive Development, which is Queen Maxima’s group." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It was MAS in the Singapore that funded this for the UN for us to do that work, and I think that report’s released next week. Some of the outcomes of observing how regulators are approaching this. Is it impacting financial inclusion? What approaches are they taking?" }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "I also highlighted the risks. When I talked about this notion of the social, huge underestimation of the risk to community of just proceeding in the belief that the technology provides all answers. I used demutualization as an example with respect to credit analytics, and how these really become social debates." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "What kind of a society do you want to live in, fundamentally? I’m not value-judging that. I’m just saying, but that’s a debate that needs to be held and it’s going to emerge." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "This notion, also, I think the conceptualization of what do we call the excluded is quite interesting. What are the proxies for defining that, are big issues." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Historically, for example, the financially excluded, the proxy historically has been, do you have a bank account? Everyone sets out to derive the number of bank accounts. Guess what? They have them and they don’t use them. Was that the right proxy? What does financial inclusion then really mean?" }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Also, the whos. I’m personally quite interested particularly in smaller micro-enterprises. I think, particularly small and medium-sized businesses, they’re not often viewed as being financially excluded, but they are." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We have a lot of analysis that indicates that they’re not obtaining as much credit as they deserve relative to others who are obtaining credit based on a given level of creditworthiness in the economy. There’s credit-starved pockets that are limiting economic development, constraining economic development also in developed economies." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We’ve done a lot of work actually analyzing the SMEs that have been funded through the non-bank channel through peer-to-peer lending in the UK market with those that have been funded through the bank market. Actually, you can very clearly see where there’s algorithmic bias, conscious or unconscious, in terms of the bank credit scoring. You know that stuff." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "How do you use then some of the enabling capacity sizing technology to actually fund that group and actually perhaps fund less? I would call it re-allocation of capital in the economy from the overfunded to the underfunded. I think that rebalancing? Interesting economic payoffs." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I visited DCMS a couple months ago, they mentioned that they are going to extend the use of dormant accounts more. There’s a law to, of course, enable the use of debt, which is a tiny percentage compared to the economy devoted for startups or innovation in general. They are looking to expand it more." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, I visited Edinburgh on the Social Enterprise Warfarm. There is a policy Warfarm. People talked about such financial instruments." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then Scottish people think that’s still token compared to what the UK can actually do. That’s a very interesting debate we were having in the Social Enterprise World Forum." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "There’s interesting organization, Big Society Capital." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "They’re the head of this. That’s funded by their own accounts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re one of the co-organizers." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We looked at that. Definitely we’re looking at in our research outcome focus. First of all, it’s understanding what’s going on. Because you got to start the debate somewhere with a common starting point where everybody’s on the same page. Four years of data, including even in the block chain and crypto space. That’s been an aim." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Then it gets more into informing the debates that emerge once that common point has been arrived at. That’s a big area of focus. I would say in those areas it’s around inclusion. The other one I would say is around sustainable-environment stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The SDGs." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Yes, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Those are pretty big areas of focus. When we set this thing up four years ago, we realized, \"Well, there’s lots of research centers in the world. What can we do that’s really different? What’s the value-add here? Because if we can’t add any value, we’re going to struggle for money. We’re going to be knocking on doors.\" It’s global comparative analysis." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We leveraged the Cambridge brand name to go global immediately. We stuck with that. We deepened it. The most recent thing we’ve done is we’re dropping research teams on the ground, embedded in organizations around the world so that we’re closer to what’s happening at a more grassroots level, particularly important when it comes to innovation." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We’re dropping teams into Hangzhou, Santiago, Chile, and Nairobi. Those teams are going in Q1 ’19, maybe Santiago Q2. We’ve got the funding with host organizations that recognize that bringing research capacity and also being able to cross-connect between the regions and even within the regions." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "With people like Asian Development Bank that don’t do what we do, we come at it a little differently. What’s interesting to us is this notion of reverse innovation, where you’ve got not this traditional from-developed-economy-to-developing-economy dissemination pattern that was the historical logic of this stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Colonizing, it looks like." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Exactly. It’s flipped." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "First, it’s understudied, those mechanisms. Secondly, you got to be there to really observe it. You got to be in the Petri dish with it to understand the mechanisms of this innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You need to hang out or, academically speaking, ethnographic. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Yeah, exactly. That’s why the teams are going in, OK? They’ll contribute to this global empirical data stuff that we do, but it’s also to really sniff out and get in. We’ve done quite a bit already with Rwanda, Uganda. These guys just came yesterday from..." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "Mozambique." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "...Mozambique." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, wow." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Every week, we’ve got somebody somewhere in the world on the team, because it’s a big team now. The idea is this getting deep, but at the same time enabling that connectivity because of course it’s borderless stuff. What’s popping up in Nairobi is going to pop up in Santiago, or some version of it here. Do you know what I mean? Fast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. My operational moniker for the g0v movement here, we call it scaling deeply, not scaling up, not scaling out. Scaling deep." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s right. That’s what we’re doing..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it is the same idea." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "...scaling deep. We should copy that." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s good, but that’s exactly right. We’re also trying to develop, actually operationalize some technologies also that break down some of the frictions that we see in this mobility. For example, we have a platform that, do you know Omidyar in New York? The Omidyar guys?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, of course." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Omidyar provided an initial funding of, I think it was $319,000, because they recognized the same problem we did, that you got these early successful fintechs in some cases and now they want to go cross-border. Say, they want to come to Taiwan. They’re in Hong Kong..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I had a fireside chat with Stephen King in the World Congress on IT. They’re, I think, creating a kind of entity dedicated for civic tech for both with-profit and for-profit organizations around Asia, but because I’m a public servant, I can’t really participate in their steering committee or advisory board." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We are in close connection when it comes to this side of democracy-augmented investment. Of course they do very much other things also." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Interesting. What we’re doing is, we’re using a machine learning-based NLP platform to build essentially what will ultimately be a machine-executable base of regulatory information, but in the short-term, we actually have...You can explain. It’s your project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Code-based connectivity." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "It’s trying to look at the common features of regulation in different countries, and using computers to identify those common features to enable comparison between them. To do that, we’re starting in a specific area of regulation, that’s anti-money-laundering, but then we want to roll it out to lots of other areas of financial regulation." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "Going through that process will require basically grabbing all of the regulation from every country, every central bank and securities organization, and classifying it into the different areas of regulation to feed into our database." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "That will allow users, both fintech firms, financial service firms, but also regulators and policy makers, to have a central depository of regulation at one level, but then be able to compare the differences between different countries on another level." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "Ultimately, you want to be able to enable that to be updated automatically to enable people to keep up to speed with regulatory change a lot more easily than is currently possible." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s still wise to reduce friction on across-border regulatory permissioning and obligations. Simple." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. I’m aware of a similar work around constitutions. It’s of course much more academic, and it tracks the importance of civil liberties, fundamental freedoms, the various UN conventions, and how it seeps into the...Because constitutions, they don’t change as quickly as financial regulations, whether there is a clear kind of lineage in it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think computational law will benefit a lot from that. On the other hand, I’m aware of the Legalese people, I think that’s the name of the team in Singapore. They do a very applied thing, which is take the basic contract, for example convertible bond or whatever, of kind of early startup financing, and describe it in code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whichever jurisdiction it’s operating in, it compiles it into whatever the most concise way, treating jurisdictions as essentially different machine types and then compile the contract, which is code-defined, into whatever contract law that’s currently in operation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whenever the regulation changes, they just change the compiled contract while keeping the intention. These are like completely two ends of things, but it seems like you’re working on actually solidifying the digitals in the middle." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s right. We’re drawing on the technical resources from within the Cambridge ecosystem, combined with our knowledge. What we bring as a center, I think, is our relationship today with well over a hundred regulators." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That was really introduced by virtue of the fact that we were effectively the sole provider of this alternative finance information that enabled them to understand what was going on in their countries." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s emerging so rapidly, there aren’t formalized structures collecting this data. We do it through an army of interns and just huge number of collaborations every year, which is labor-intensive, but it’s created these relationships that enable us to draw on that community essentially, to populate this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right, and now also with assistive intelligence or AIs." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "I think what’s interesting with looking at this from the regulatory side, something that I’m really keen to explore in 2019 is how we can use the same types of techniques for entity mapping to see who’s in the market, looking at, say, a techonomy of different activities." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "Assuming that business wants to describe what it does on its website, you can use that language and then categorize them into the different activities." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "We spent so much time trying to work out who’s doing what in which market, and how that’s evolving, and how businesses are currently changing its different products, and things like this. It’s a pain point I think we’ve seen in turn." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool. Quite a few legislators here also see the need for having a kind of self-disclosure for, especially security token offerings but also other crypto stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the moment, aside from anti-money-laundering, which is pretty much universal, all the jurisdictions devise completely different ways for the STOs to do the diligence or to review the information, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody see the need of a commonly agreed kind of structured information, but on the other hand, it can’t be a taxonomy. It have to be a folksonomy because there’s a really no one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to STOs, because all the jurisdictions are wildly different." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s quite a few efforts here locally as well to, at least regionally, something like what you described, to track the activities because previously, they just published white papers themselves and/or registered, but not necessarily..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Is that happening in universities, or where is that kind of effort happening?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The universities here are supporting the technology part, but there’s many, like the GITA. There’s a GIT Alliance. I think that’s the name. The gita.foundation, I think, it’s the one that tomorrow, they’re going to be in Academia Sinica, which is a research organization, but it’s not strictly speaking reporting to cabinet. It reports to the president. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a very interesting kind of Lagrange point between the social sector and the public sector. Academia Sinica people have traditionally worked on this, citizen science on one side and government data on the other side, and they’re seen as a trusted point between the public sector and the social sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Academia Sinica hackathon, the g0v hackathon, G-0-V, which happens every couple of months, we see a large number of designers, engineers, but also academics and people in the field working on something like this kind of thing in a cross-sectoral collaboration." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the physical space where it happens is Academia Sinica, but the people who join are of course from various different stakeholder groups." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s quite interesting also because I think you know the whole emergence of citizen science and citizen sensing is challenging authority." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. It’s very much something in Taiwan, we can’t beat them, so we just join them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Especially in Asia, this is really the only place where we say this kind of stuff. When people in Taiwan assembled the air quality sensing apparatus, and all this is..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s awesome. Where is that? Is that publicly some..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, of course. It’s the g0v that I mentioned, with the call to so-called fork the government by having all the service they think government should provide but don’t, and build citizen science alternatives to this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The environment for example, by just changing the government website from O to a zero, you get into the shadow government, which is open-source and open data, and so the Li Xigong Gwanzou, or the Air Quality Measurement Network, it’s called AirBox, the device and the network’s called LASS, L-A-S-S, and they’re under $100 in construction." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "How many are out there now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The nodes, I think it’s a old picture, so definitely more than 2,000 now. It’s completely citizen-funded, and it creates, as you said, a legitimacy challenge." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Between the very precise EPAs, and so that’s five kilometers away, and the microsensors people put on the balcony, of course I’m going to trust my neighbors even though they have technically less precise equipment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we did is, as a government, we used distributed ledger technology and engaged the Chang Gung University’s distributed ledger lab to make sure that they take a snapshot and then upload to our National Supercomputing Center, so people can do evidence-based climate research and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The citizen scientists, they cannot go back to modify their numbers, but they also trust the government cannot also go back and modify their numbers because of DLT. [laughs] That’s one of the very few legit use of DLT..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "I agree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...when it comes to open data." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s excellent. I’ve never heard of this. Did we note this?" }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "I want to look at this." }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then for this in particular, we actually built a portal to explain this because we think it’s of importance internationally, and we call it the collectiveintelligence.taiwan.gov.tw, the Civil IoT System." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s an English page in there also, so it’s not just meteorological or air, but also disaster recovery, earthquake prevention and detection, and water quality like the water pipes and the leakage detection." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We actually worked with the New Zealand Water Corporation for three months, adapting this AI leak detection to their pipelines, and again, in a very appropriate technology. Allowing our technology to be appropriated, I think that’s the idea of open innovation, but that is the kind of ethos we live by. It’s not colonizing technology but..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Is this challenging any corporate interests yet?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually the system integrators in Taiwan, they are totally on board with this because we know that we cannot actually fill in all those different points. What they now say is that OK, they can provide better analytics, they can work with the environment agency to identify the digital gap and set up similar low-cost microsensors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They can manufacture something that is manufactured in Taiwan and not in nearby jurisdictions, and that doesn’t have cybersecurity issues. [laughs] That can provide a better quality network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The larger corporation, they also say they want to contribute. For example, the citizen scientists really want to put a air quality sensor here on the Taiwan Strait, but it’s impossible. Even with drones, they run out of battery eventually." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s people working on drones also, but we are working on it because of the wind plant, the power plant of wind turbines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now we work with system integrators to embed their network and the DLT into the sensing technology of the offshore wind turbine plants, so that the citizen scientists can get the number they want and the system integrators, they also have very good PR and even business..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "This is very interesting because one of the emerging areas that I think we may start to try to research this year, remember I mentioned about the environmental sustainability stuff’?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "There’s a problem in the capital markets right now I see with respect to green-certified financing. This becomes interesting, where you can introduce environmental covenants as another set alongside financial covenants, and accordingly, sanction or reward based on..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Based on popular sentiment." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Is anyone here thinking in that line?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Who is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...but also there’s a whole..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "I know, but you’re you." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "I mean, out there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah but the CI system really is a collection of all the different ministries. It’s like five different ministries joining, and so there’s a steering center for this, and so I would highly encourage you to get in touch with these people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, they’re putting out huge awards, I think the first prize is three million Taiwan dollars, just to get anyone who can do some sense-making based on this international standard of climate and air quality and whatever technology. Just making the ground truth understandable by people is itself a prize." }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "Indeed, we are quite interested in data because since 2015, we collect such kind of fintech data from the 2,000 platform among 170 countries, which we are going to publish this kind of data for academic, for industry, for the regulator..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "This is a bit different. I’m interested where this interfaces with finance though. This is taking environmental data and bringing it into the world of finance, to actually drive behavior change. That’s the bottom line." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To basically say social impact is part of..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Exactly. Ravi, this the LODI discussion." }, { "speaker": "Ravi Vig", "speech": "I was thinking exactly the same. Yesterday, we met up with the Asian Development Bank and..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We know them pretty well, and particularly, we’re doing some things with their..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At the Center for University Social Responsibility is also thinking along these lines. There’s a program in Taiwan called..." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Which University?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...a USR, like CSR buffer universities, which is encouraging universities to design five years worth of capstone projects that engage their professors and students in service of a environmental or social need locally. It’s a very large budget, actually." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Do they do international collaboration in the research funding, or is it just domestic?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Currently it’s just domestic, but starting next February, they are going to map all the USR projects, there’s many, using the sustainable goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What we are looking at with the USR is that eventually, we’ll be able to show a map of Taiwan and show exactly which goals or which universities USR program working toward, because it’s not like the old way of the Ministry of Education getting an agenda, setting out grants NSF-style stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the other way around. It’s the community, the environmental community, working with a local college and figuring out a way to make students part of the inclusive decision-making in the community, and then funding based on the KPIs that they themself make." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the Ministry of Education, it’s two years of pilot. If it works, then three more years of funding, no question asked. It’s a very different agenda setting." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s available, but it’s not available in any international research collaboration context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the USR office is looking toward international collaboration because it’s really new. It only gets into the social innovation plan this year." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "OK, because as I understand it, one of Taiwan’s strategic objectives is more international collaborations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh yeah, very much so." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Is that not right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That should be reflected in a program like this, I would have thought." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, which is why they’re re-indexing using SDGs and I think once the remapping is complete by next February, international dialogues are much easier." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "OK, because we’re now starting to think through for the team that’s actually going to go into the host organization will be the ADB in Manila. In the team, it does exactly this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s awesome." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "They’re not playing with the technology. They’re focused on green bond finance, and they’re focused on more of the traditional approaches. Why they want us embedded is, we’re thinking more like this. They understand this completely, of how it could impact behavior change in a more powerful way than the loosey-goosey green bond market, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We’re very interested in this. What do we do to follow that up, because I could have a Manila team working on this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve worked with human geographers, we’ve worked with cultural anthropologists in international research organizations. Usually, they just come here and randomly intern for three months or something. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re totally open for collaboration in this regard. All our social innovation action plan meetings, my touring around Taiwan, meeting with these cooperative people, indigenous people and so on, all the transcript are open." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you’re interested, or any of your research fellows is interested, they’re totally welcome to just shadow me a while and get to know the right people along the process. We’ve worked with many universities this way. Not many, like three, but yes." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Three is more than a pair." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "What’s interesting to us is also where there’s a path to research funding, because at the end of the day, somebody has to pay for all this. That would be interesting, Chen, to explore, right?" }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It sounds like post-February, those paths open up perhaps." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "That’s definitely interesting. We’re interested also in terms of whether there’s any interest in the involvement in our project, which we call RIG Simple, which is the comparative analysis of global regulatory information. Any thoughts there on whether...Is there any connectivity possible where we would perhaps connect in?" }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s funny, because listening yesterday at the fintech base event and the challenge even of firms looking at understanding...that are considering going into the Sandbox environment and understanding the regulatory environment, what is the permission and what are the obligations." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Even something as simple as that is potentially...Particularly if a company’s coming from outside the country, and they’re looking at the Taiwan environment, that’s it. Is that a demo in there? What is on there on the right side?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it has the AML, the anti-money laundering. That’s the main thing." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "That’s where we started." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m of course happy to work with our National Development Council, because they just announced actually the so-called bilingual nation plan yesterday." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Really?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "Sorry to interrupt you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "There’s a point there, but the whole language issue is a key thing that we need to work out, and we have decided to focus on English language, initially, because there’s about a hundred countries that provide all of their regulation and law in English." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and lucky for you. By this time next year..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...we translate everything related to international trade and finance and so on to English. Previously we do so for law, but actually most of the details are in regulations as you will know. Now we say as soon as a regulation is related to international trade, financing, and things like that, we need to provide our English versions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also working with the judicial branch saying that if they have important rulings and so on to that effect, they actually become de facto law, but previously they were not available in English, not even a summary." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They also need to provide those in English, otherwise the picture is not complete. You can get caught up in our continental law systems’ wordings, but actually it’s the interpretations that count, and so all of this needs to be translated to English." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "That will be fantastic for the system we’re building, which would be great for Taiwan, but in the future many countries just as Mozambique expecting [laughs] their governments to translate the regulation to English is probably..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe we should push for that though." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "I think that would be a really long time. The whole issue of machine translation and being able to make our system work in a number of key languages to ensure as global coverage as possible is definitely going to be an issue that we’re going to have to address, but that is a criteria that would fit..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. When I was visiting Canada...and as you know that, they have a English-French by law compulsory thing, but for most of those emergent content is really difficult, and they’re also working on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "English-French is one of the best pairs for machine translation at the moment, but even though we all recognize that, they still have to put a distance machine-translated mark. They have to figure out a lot of internal regulations to even offer this to you. It would take a long time because, as we’ve said, this is fundamentally a social issue that people need to feel secure in the technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A mistranslation could mean the opposite thing, and it could mean the world’s difference. We’re also working on this technologically, but we’re definitely not doing this in a top-down regulatory fashion." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re encouraging people to work on it, to tackle it as a kind of open technology for everybody to use, but we’re at the moment still using the old-fashioned way of just publish bilingually." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Who would be the right group? We’re talking to fintech base, for example. They’re quite interested in this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re the right group." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "We’ll keep that dialog going." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The bilingual regulatory publishing work is coordinated by the National Development Council." }, { "speaker": "Hung-Yi Chen", "speech": "國發會." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the NDC is probably the right contact for this." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Great, Thanks for your time. Really appreciated and I’m amazed. You’re doing some very innovative things. Is something more agile in your structure? How are you getting away with that? That’s put a bit strongly, but you know what I mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah. I have three compact... I negotiated in public through a Ask Me Anything platform during the months between my appointment and me actually being the digital minister." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The three things are voluntary association — meaning I don’t give orders, I don’t take orders; location independence — I get to work anywhere; radical transparency — anything I can see I can publish. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All these are actually core values in the Internet governance that I learned as my primary political system in the old IETF days back in the ’90s. I was like 15 at the time, and it would be another five year before I actually get my first vote right in the electoral politic system, which seems a very quaint system to me at the time; I had experienced a better system with already five years of the experience." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think these three really are the key. Because of radical transparency, people trust that I’m doing the work that I do, even though because of that I cannot know the military secrets." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If they do a military drill, I just take a day off. I don’t where the bunkers are. This enables me to be still part of the civil society but with the government. A voluntary association means we get the best and brightest from each ministry, with no commanding relationship and all they agree to do is basically to work out loud, to let everybody else see what everybody else is working that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "It’s interesting. Pretty interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Robert Wardrop", "speech": "Thanks." }, { "speaker": "Kieran James Garvey", "speech": "Thanks very much." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I know you read our paper, obviously, so you know something about us." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Usually, to start with the interview, we introduce ourselves and the research project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the benefit of people reading the transcript, also." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Excellent, yes. Basically, we know how it’s going to start with the interview and where it’s going to end, but what’s in the middle is up to us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Let me at least start with some research. For the benefit of the transcript, we are Shaowen Bardzell and Jeffrey Bardzell. We’re both professors at Indiana University in the School of Informatics, Computing, and Engineering. We’re both researchers in human-computer interaction, or HCI, and design. That’s the quick introduction." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I think we both typically identify as design researchers. We are maybe a little bit less on the technical side and more on the \"having a good idea\" side. That’s at least how we think about it. I think it’s relevant -- this will come up -- that both of us are from the humanities." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We both have our PhDs in comparative literature. It’s a little bit of a transition from comparative literature into computing, but that’s what happened. Most of our research, we have a critical or humanistic take on HCI." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "One of our commitments from being from comparative literature is actually telling what our commitments are, actually saying what we believe." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Positionality." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The position, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Position, and that kind of thing. Exactly. There are two things that have driven this research. One has been a commitment to gender and gender issues. Shaowen, in particular, is very well-known for her work on feminism and feminist HCI." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "The other thing very much coming from Shaowen is a commitment to Taiwan, because Shaowen is originally from Taiwan. You can..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I was born and raised here. I went to Zhongcheng, then Tunghai, and then I went to The States for graduate studies, and I met you in this. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s right. Maybe 5 or 10 years after you went to the US, you started to miss Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yes, I felt like I’d like to use a word, liminal because it’s not the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "閾境, that’s the word." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I’m not really US. I’m not American, also not Chinese. The past couple of years, I’ve been trying to say that I had to do the research. I visited home every year to see my family. It will be really good if I can do something for Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "We got a NSF grant, the National Science Foundation grant, looking at IT innovation, open innovation, especially in terms of making, DIY. We’re arguing that this is not just a hobbyist pursuit, but also has strong economic implications, and we want to document how making is actually conceptualized and practiced in Asia." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "That grant looked at, like a comparative study, what making actually contribute to economic growth in Taiwan, China, and also America, the West, and not your typical Silicon Valley narratives." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s the official story anyway that we used to get grant funding." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what we read in the paper. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "There’s often a subtext, which is, \"Why are people really doing this\" and, \"What are people’s real values,\" and, \"What is the really interesting stuff that’s happening?\" It’s skipping ahead a little bit, but one of the things that we discovered in this research was that there were, of course, people who buy this vision of making, democratizing technology, democratizing innovation, driving start-ups." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "There’s a whole story there in a narrative that’s been spread around the world." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like open access in your field. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Of course, to a certain extent, that’s true. We want that to happen, and we support that. We’ve also discovered there’s a lot of people who are pursuing making, DIY, or other kinds of technological projects for reasons that they’re passionate about, but may not have to do with the economy. For example, preservation of Budaishi would be one example, at least." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s cultural heritage." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, cultural heritage. One of the things we’ve seen we’ll come back to later is it seems like a lot of people are talking about Taiwan identity, both as a people, as a country, or even those that sit in Taipei." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a researcher that really defined Taiwan’s identity as liminality, Stéphane Corcuff. I stayed in his place in France during my liminal month — when I was appointed digital minister, but not quite digital minister, I was abroad." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "We’ll check him out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s two years ago. He published quite a few books defining Taiwan’s identity around the concept of liminality." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I thought you might be interested." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah. I’m going to come backwards, then I’ll come back to that, just to get everything on the record. The research that we started, the initial grant, was before this current one. When was that, 2009 or 2010?" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "’10." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "It was on creativity support. That’s one of the big topics in our field, how might technologies support people being creative. Initially, one of the things that we were looking at was network-enabled creativity." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Like amateur creativity, in the sense that it’s not like the professional going to design school, architecture school to be creative, but everyday people, regular folks." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Part of this was arising out of the early days of YouTube, Second Life, and some of these things where there’s a lot of excitement about participant-generated or community-generated content and that kind of thing. That was the start of that grant." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "One of the things that we were looking at then was World of Warcraft animations. Then, we realized that was also very much driven..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Masculine." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "...by men. It was mostly college-aged guys. Gender was an important topic to us, so then we started to look at etsy.com. Do you know the site Etsy? It’s a craft website in the US." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "That’s E-T-S-Y. Most of them are women." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "It’s a predominantly female site. A lot of people are showing leadership." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s like Pinkoi. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah. Yes, it’s definitely like that. It’s a Taiwanese craft site. People make craft and sell." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We’re looking at leadership in a more predominantly female, but also still large network, distributed, keeping it in a curated content setting. Because of the Taiwan angle, we started to look at craft. We went to Caotun and the National Craft..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Research Institute." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "There’s another word in there, but I can’t remember what it is, National Craft, something, Research Institute in Caotun. We interviewed several master crafters. This is back in 2011, I think." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We want to show where this is coming from, what some of the issues are, and the ways in which we’ve tried to blend things that we care about, like gender, Taiwan, criticality, with things that our government’s willing to pay us to do, [laughs] innovation, democratization of technology, start-ups, and those kind of things. Our research, in a way, has blended these two topics." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "One thing to add before we start the interview is to say two things. Especially in human-computer interaction, I think a lot of their theory and concepts about creativity, innovation, or collaboration, they use cases or this kind of empirical work that’s predominantly male or definitely Western." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "In our work, we didn’t do it deliberately, but over time, looking back, we seem to have at least this kind of you can say commitment, and you can also say that this is a common strand of our research." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "We tried to not resist, but definitely challenge this kind of predominantly Western and masculine notion of what creativity or IT innovation actually means by using cases, for example, in Taiwan or Etsy to challenge that. I think that continue to our current work." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "One of the threads that we encountered here -- I’ll get back to that -- we started to hear a lot about the pursuit of democracy in Taiwan and the role of technology and technology tools for that. Of course, the Sunflower Movement was very impactful on her in particular." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a large demo." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I can say, as her husband..." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "...not necessarily as a research colleague, that that had a huge impact on her. She started talking about Taiwan a lot more and in different ways and asking deep questions of herself and her own identity that I hadn’t heard prior to that. I think that was really a turning point." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "One thing that I feel as a researcher is any time somebody’s really touched in their soul, whether or not you can explain or defend it, it’s important, so you should try to pursue and understand it. A lot of the work that we’ve done since then has been in that space. That’s what led us to looking at g0v and Peggy and you and others." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Chihao also?" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We might want to close the door..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "All right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not to make this a closed-door meeting, but just for the recording quality. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "We can open a window." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s basically the introduction." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, I’m good." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We have, I think, a two-part agenda. One is we want to ask a bunch of questions about your perspectives and your experiences. Mostly this is to create a basis of shared understanding. The second part’s a little bit more intellectual. We want to share a little bit some of our thinking and get your reaction to that. That’s basically the idea." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "One of the things we wanted to start with and I have to say -- I’m going to share my positionality -- one of the things as an American that I feel, that really inspires me about what I’ve seen in Taiwan, is I feel very hopeless. I feel like I live in a gerrymandered...Do you know what that means?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We live in a district that has been crafted in order to make sure that our vote doesn’t matter. They make very funny-shaped districts, and then they get all the liberal populations, and they break them up and spread them out, so they have the least impact." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Even though it’s a college town." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We live in a very liberal area, but we have always had conservative representation, and it will never change because it’s crafted in order to make sure that our voices is not heard. As an American, I personally have felt there’s nothing I can do. Trump loses the vote, and he’s still the president." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We have overwhelming elections that say that people want more Democrats, and still, you have a Republican...One of the things that excited me about Taiwan and some of your work and some of what I want to see is I feel like you’re creating new ways for people to be represented and to have a voice. Personally, that excites me." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Some of what we’ve seen, and that’s what I’d like to talk about, is with join.gov or -- I don’t how to say it. Is it polis?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Pol.is." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "And Logbot. I actually don’t understand what that is, but maybe you could tell us quickly what Logbot is. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Logbot is a bot that logs the conversation on g0v. We’re inclusive in the sense that the Logbot recognizes conversations from Slack, which is marked by an S, which is then translated into English and Japanese automagically through machine translation to the English and Japanese channels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also recognizes conversations from Telegram. By default, it recognize conversation from IRC. It is basically a effusion of three popular communication technologies that the civic hackers here use, making sure that each individual utterance have its own URL, so to speak. You can talk about one particular utterance, within context, as a social object. That’s the main design in brief." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Those color-coded just means that it’s from different sources." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The circular S means it’s from Slack. If it’s from Telegram, it will be a circular T. Without the circle, it means it’s from IRC." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "You don’t author here? You actually author in Slack and somewhere else?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Slack, Telegram, and IRC." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "This is just representation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This makes what feels like a closed room a very public space. It publicizes the conversation. Then it becomes easily discoverable, and people can have any conversation around one particular conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also reminds the people that, in a Slack channel alone, it’s 4,000 people or something. This is really a public place. It’s not a small chat room anymore. If you have a room with 4,000 people, it’s not a room. [laughs] It’s agora or something. That’s Logbot." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Sorry, I’m just trying to take notes. This is going to sleep every 30 seconds, so it’s great." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Could you talk a little bit about the digital ecology that these are all part of? I think you already started to do that. You were saying, with Slack, it might feel like it’s a room, but actually, it’s more of an agora. You’re trying to link it through Logbot to other things, to open it up. Do you see it as an ecology, or are we imposing that word?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We had a human geographer..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Nice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...working with us for quite a bit." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Phil?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Phil, and there was another person from Madrid and also Taiwanese. She did a comparison..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yu-Shan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think Yu-Shan is also a human geographer." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She used ethnographic..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Approach." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...approaches, i.e. hanging out." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, you hang out." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Deep hanging out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She did a lot of hanging out with us and compared the human geography of the online and offline spaces in Taiwan, comparing it to the Madrid, which has a very carefully curated post-15M ecology that turns the Occupy technical tools into governance tools, like the council system and so on. She already published or maybe just delivered the first..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah, she did a presentation in Madrid a few weeks back." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That compares the Madrid..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "And Taiwanese." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...landscape." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Can I maybe follow up with you to get a copy?" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. That’s high-quality research, and it’s impossible to summarize, [laughs] so I will not summarize." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yu-Shan?" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Tseng." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Tseng Yu-Shan. From my point of view, it’s actually really easy. I will just highlight the physical, the temporal, and the digital impressions on me personally. This is my actual office. We could have met there. I don’t why Shuyang brought you here..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s this relatively more boring place." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "It was just two years ago we were here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is actually my office in the Social Innovation Lab in the Taiwan Air Force base. It used to be the Taiwan Air Force Base." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Oh, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The space itself is co-designed by more than 100 social innovators, each one bringing a different contribution. The soccer field here is contributed by the Down syndrome people, working with the Children Are Us Foundation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It turns out that while we may perceive the world in a more textual or numeric modality, they have a specific intuition based on geometric modality. Again, that’s serious research that I will not go into summarize." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It starts as visual therapy or art therapy stuff, but then social designers running our therapy classes discovered that the output of the class is actually art. It’s very appealing and very attractive and immediately puts people in a different worldview that makes creativity flow much, much more easily, which is why we have a lot of..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Would you mind I take a picture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course....public art contributed by people with trisomy 22 or something like that, and into the design of the space. The space itself won a Good Designer Award in Japan. With that backdrop, it makes us very easily with new experiments that’s taking place, literally every week, in the Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, we had two-city-mobility hackathons with those creatures that are self-driving tricycles from MIT Media Lab. They call themselves the persuasive electric vehicles or PEVs. They’re very slow, has the same right of road as pedestrians, doesn’t harm anyone if it runs into buildings, and it’s open source, open hardware, and open data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people from local college can very easily adapt the flow of these creatures to make it feel more symbiotic instead of parasitic, and more community-owned, instead of colonizing. It’s a attempt of getting people into a state of curiosity and co-creation when it comes to self-driving vehicles." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan has a law now that permits open experiments for one year for any modality of hybrid land, sea, and air self-driving vehicles. In such a safe space, people can co-create with much more confidence around the new norm. Otherwise, people think people from MIT decide the social parameters, which is exactly the wrong thing to do when it comes to autonomous technology." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we station this in the ARTC, which is a testing ground, then it’s very far away from any people’s livelihood." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even if we invite focus group or whatever, it will feel strained. Against a backdrop of the people’s creations and the real flow from the Jianguo Flower Market into the Contemporary Culture Lab, into the Social Innovation Lab, it makes much more sense because it has a natural interaction with the people in the city." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The parameters, whatever people came up with, is much more like to feel owned by the community through open source and maker culture rather than being imposed by designers of autonomous apparatus. I think that’s the physical space. The vTaiwan meet-ups, as well as...Actually, there’s many other meet-ups, the Our Ladies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many groups that now uses this ground as their regular meeting space. We also had the universal basic income group..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...in Taiwan and the Social Impact Investment Board, the SIIB people. There’s many people who consider this their base or their home. At any given time, you can see 5 or even 10 activities happening around the TAF Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s free for everybody to use the space on the ground floor. As long as you can identify any of the sustainable development goals that you are working on, you get to use this venue for free for your events. Naturally, we get a lot of people focusing on the social progress side." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The maker culture you outlined, they would say, \"But we’re also working on the SDG 9 and SDG 12,\" which is industrialization, innovation, and infrastructure, as well as a responsible production-consuming cycle, that is to say to blur the line between producers and consumers, and have a full accountability of the externalities of the action of production and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the physical space that we intentionally curate to make this culture possible. Of course, there’s a older place that is slightly farther away in Academia Sinica in Nangang. The Humanities and Social Sciences building, as well as the Institute for Information is widely considered by the g0v community as home or as space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That physical space is also an important part of the ecology. First of all, it’s a regular meeting. Every two months, there’s going to be a large gathering of hundreds of people. Every two years, there’s a large summit in the HSS building with a thousand people." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "There’s one there tomorrow." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "There’s one tomorrow?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s one hackathon tomorrow, so you might want to..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "You also have a g0v summit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s in the building of Humanities and Social Sciences, Academia Sinica." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Oh, that’s 人社院." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all in the Academia Sinica." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I signed up but I couldn’t make it back. That was in October." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. Academia Sinica is a very special design because it doesn’t report to the cabinet. It belongs directly to the president’s office. In a sense, it is above all the different values represented by different ministries and can generally be trusted as a Lagrange point between the social sector and the public sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because it’s not, specifically speaking, reporting to the premier, it offers a kind of gong xin li, a public legitimacy. When, for example, the Academia Sinica work with citizen scientists with air pollution and air quality detectors, the AirBox network, this citizen science is entirely citizen science. Network is absorbed, processed, and designed by researchers in the Academia Sinica." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If, for example, the Ministry of Economy or Ministry of the Environment were to do this thing, then it will be seen as more pro-public sector and less of the social sector. When Academia Sinica researchers did this, they’re widely considered as in the social sector, even though they’re technically paid by taxpayer money." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the physical location of Academia Sinica, and to a lesser degree our Social Innovation Lab, is very important because it shows that it doesn’t belong to any municipality. It doesn’t belong to any particular department or ministry, and it is kind of liminal space for all the different sustainable goals to meet. That’s the physical part. I hope I’m making sense." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, totally." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That makes sense. Could I ask a question?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I looked at a lot of efforts to create innovation hubs where you put lots of people together and it’s supposed to be vibrant and exciting. I learned a word a couple of years ago, 蚊子館. A lot of them are set up, but then nobody actually shows up." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Mosquito exhibition." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "In your opinion, what makes one work? What makes this one successful compared to one that are 蚊子館?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Shuyang, in your opinion, what does Social Innovation Lab did right? I think the resident chef and kitchen..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and buffet really is the thing." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s a good answer." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a really good programmer..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "I totally agree." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...turned into a molecular cuisine chef, 史達魯. I call him the spirit of the SIL because whatever social entrepreneur’s agricultural product is, he can turn it into delicious food. If you attend a conference, maybe a month afterward, you’ll forget everything just one point or two points." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the food is excellent, then you remember the food and is willing to come back again next month for the same meeting. It’s just human nature." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Resident chef was the number one wish when we did the co-creation workshops. We hold five co-creation workshops for this space. The number one ask is a open kitchen, cafe, and a resident chef, so we do have a resident chef. He calls himself 地縛靈... How do we translate this? Space-bound spirit." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "He’s always there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A spirit trapped in a particular physical space..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "He’s always everywhere. He’s always going about all the rooms and offers the food." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we hold, for example, the vTaiwan meet-ups every Wednesday, 7:00 PM, sometimes people order food or peace offering food. 史達魯 sometimes just randomly shows up and say, \"Here’s some delicious stuff. Would you like some?\" That creates a huge rapport because it’s really very good food." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think a number two ask is for it to open until 11:00 PM every day. It opens from 7:00 to 11:00, like a convenience store used to be, which is 24 hours now. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The 7:00-11:00 temporal design also creates a lot of synergy because most activities end around 8:00 or 9:00. In any other publicly-funded maker space, it usually closes around that time, so people have to find a nearby bar or whatever together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we have five activities or four activities in the same evening, people just naturally go to different places. Because it opens until 11:00 and because there’s a natural place to gather with excellent food and drinks, people just hang out after the events and get to know people who are ostensibly about very different things, rather like environmental protection and universal basic income. Then they discover natural synergies. I think just having it open until 11:00 is also a thing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The third contribution is that I’m there every Wednesday from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. It’s my office hour, and anyone can come and talk to me, provided they agree to publish the transcript, so I’m easily discoverable. I live 10 minutes walk from this space, so I randomly drop by during weekends as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our collaboration meetings are there also, on Fridays, twice a month. Our regional innovation tours are also there every other Tuesday or so. I think it’s one per month now, but it used to be twice per month." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I tour around Taiwan going to indigenous places, rural places, remote islands, and talk to people while the 12 ministries are in the Social Innovation Lab seeing whatever I see. I’m more like a investigative reporter. I talk with local people, but instead of just handing their cases as A4 paper copies, they actually, in their natural habitat, talk about their local challenges and worries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Instead of the ministries passing A4 copies to one other, all the relevant people are in the same room, so they immediately start brainstorming." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Is that open to the public?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This whole transcript is published, and you can, of course, attend..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I can sit there and just watch him?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our touring schedule is on the great Internet I think." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "\"The great Internet.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The great beyond. If you go to se.pdis.tw, it shows the touring schedule. They took a page from Paris city government by using all uppercase word. You can’t really see whether it’s spelling G-O-V or G-zero-V, and therefore, open for interpretation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I attended Open Government Partnership in Paris two years ago, they made a point of spelling G-O-V, but italicized the O. If people from other jurisdiction want to challenge, they could say, \"It’s gov zero.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s interesting wordplay, literally. [laughs] As you can see, all the upcoming ones are published there. In each and every one, we publish the entire transcript two weeks afterwards. You can see very clearly, like in Taoyuan through the remote, which cases are being asked and what our answers are." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the 勞動合作社, the labor co-ops, are one of the main topics in the Taoyuan line. We track our process so they get timely updates when the Minister of Interior and Labor now figures out how to do public procurement with co-ops that doesn’t actually apply the Labor Act, but need to be held on the same standards when it come to insurance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, they were very disadvantaged because many procuring agency only know about companies and not co-ops. Now, we have a template for people to work with. There’s many structural problems that are very quickly resolved in this way because all the ministries are in the same room enjoying drinks and working in a geometry created by people with Down syndrome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They now become much more creative exactly because of that. That’s the three thing. I don’t know what Shuyang thinks about the atmosphere." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "It’s known as a place, like the third point is very interesting. I always talk about food, time, and space, but the third point is for you to say. The fact that you’re there, people know, \"This place is where I could bump into Audrey Tang.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From time to time." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "It’s nice to be so close to a digital minister. Open office hour is very crucial because they know they can book the hour from Audrey, for an hour, just asking lots of questions." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Sometimes you are working on something related to social enterprise or social innovation. People always try to, if they have problem in their business, in their project, or in their NGO, relate their project to some kind of SDG goals from the UN." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "There’s a point they will try to figure out if they’re actually making an impact in the world, and they can ask lots of questions to Audrey at the same time to get some feedback." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They don’t have to make an appointment. The morning hours, before noon, is for walking in." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Nice." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When people just randomly think about something, they randomly walks in." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think this whole tenet is very important. A appointment, of course, guarantees 40 minutes of dedicated attention." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Really? Sodagreen is coming?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, Sodagreen is coming." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Why?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t know." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "It must be important." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "That’s a band..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a band." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "...from childhood." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "This is the schedule?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the schedule, but if you think of something randomly, here you see you can just randomly drop by. That’s the design." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s how it is for us, too." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "As professors, people have an idea, they just walk in, \"Do you have five minutes?\" An hour later, they leave." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly right. We try to make it 40 minutes, but yes. Wednesday, people come to me. Tuesday, I visit people. Friday, 5,000 people get to summon us. That’s the design." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "That is very cool because the collaboration meetings is gathering people working in the government and also we discuss on the certain issues and the social..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It looks something like this." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Something like this case, for example." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "These meetings also take place in the Air Force Innovation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now it does. It used to be that we’re using the Ministry of Finance meeting space. After the Social Innovation Lab gets constructed and it has really good WiFi mesh network and food now, we then migrated to the SI Lab." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I think we should visit." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, we haven’t been to the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Shuyang can certainly show you around, and Sheau-Tyng can also show you around." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "That’d be great." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Great. That would be awesome." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the digital space, again, is as useful as possible archival of whatever took place in the physical places. It could be Academia Sinica. It could be the g0v meet-ups. It could be the Social Innovation Lab sessions. It could be the cocreation workshops." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The g0v people has a habit of going to...like MG Lee is a cultural anthropologist, which also means she hangs out a lot with people. When she presented her observation about the g0v community, g0v people attended her panel or presentation and started taking all the notes of whatever people was asking..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...thereby, digitizing the traditional academic space. G0v people does have a tendency [laughs] of turning anything that’s a physical meeting into digital counterparts or digital twinning. Maybe you can say something about creating twins. Once it’s digital, then it becomes a social object, as I talked about in the Logbot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then, people who are not in the room, not even caring, suddenly Google something and discover that. Then more serendipity and connections forms spontaneously between one physical meeting and the other." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the predictable schedule is very important because then when people make the connection, they can say, \"I’ll go to the next meet-up. I’ll go the next hackathon. I’ll go to the next whatever gathering. I’ll go to the next regional tour.\"" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I’m sorry. I’m writing as fast as I can." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "[laughs] To go back a few minutes, what you’ve done, you talk about the physical, the digital, and temporal. All of my notes are in physical and digital. Did you talk about the temporal?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The temporal one is the weekly office hour..." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "OK, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...the bi-weekly collaboration meetings, the monthly regional tours and visits. It’s actually twice a month, but one with all the ministries in the SI world, and one more with a focused hangout. I’ll keep using that word." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The vTaiwan meet-up every Wednesday dinner, the hackathons that are bi-monthly, and the summit that are biannual. There’s many other temporal ones in other g0v projects. I’m just talking about the ones that I’m personally in." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "What was the biannual? The biannual meet-up you said?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The biannual summit. It’s summit.g0v.tw." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Got it. The innovation hub works as...I see. It all fits, and that’s what makes it work, these regular, temporal things. You have the discoverability, so you have the serendipitous discovery that, because of the regular, temporal, it becomes possible for people to meet up in the space. That all makes sense. I’ve got it." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "[laughs] Great." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Let me find out what we’re supposed to be talking about. One thing that we’ve talked about is contrasting g0v with something like Anonymous in the US, because they seemed to be really different." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s nothing in common. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "When I go to Anonymous, this shadowy organization, engages in often illegal behavior, it clearly has an adversarial stance. When people think about a hacker collective or a political hacking, from an American standpoint, Anonymous would immediately be the paradigm example, and g0v clearly is nothing at all like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Except we’re also international. I guess that’s the only commonality. If you go to g0v.it, you see g0v Italy in g0v.it. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s great." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, this is a visualization of the Italian budget, which is the inaugural g0v Taiwan project. It’s paying [laughs] this kind of respect for the evolution. They did actually a lot more than the inaugural g0v project. There’s a lot more visualization and design that went into it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The great thing here is this is not trademarked and it’s free of copyright, so g0v.it, as far as I know, they’re inspired and they appropriated the technology as appropriate technology. They didn’t have to ask for a license, membership, or anything. It’s a meme, and they just copied the meme to there. I think g0v Canada is also in the works and New York, many other places." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that, in this regard, it’s like Anonymous in the sense that people can claim to be Anonymous just by doing anonymous things. People can claim to be g0v just by doing g0v things, but I think the payload is going to be different." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That helps. One of the questions is it seems to be a very different configuration of hacking, industry leadership, and of governance than what we have in the US. We have big conglomerates like Intel or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "First of all, you think they probably have a secret, shadowy relationship with the US government that we don’t even know about or understand. Because they’re multinational, they also are almost like countries on their own." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Semi-sovereign." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Exactly. One of the things that struck me about the Sunflower Movement, and I think this is what we’re trying to get at, it seemed like there were a lot of industry leaders and activists who used g0v maybe as a vehicle for change, but then, like yourself or like Peggy, actually ended up working in government..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "With the government." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "...which is inconceivable. If we think about the Intel or the Anonymous, that pathway just doesn’t make any sense. I was curious to understand, get a little perspective on..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the government, in its current form in Taiwan, is also like a start-up. The first presidential elections is 1996. It’s not a very established democracy. We’re all just figuring out how to do this thing. Maybe a comparison can be made with Madrid. I think it’s why Yu-Shan chose Madrid." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They had a dictatorship. They had their transitional justice issues, and they also saying, \"Our generation is the generation that can actually do democracy, and so we can figure out things together rather than just deferring to the old traditions because the old tradition is dictatorship. Nobody want to go back there.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To a lesser degree, people compared us to Estonia, which is, I think, a more stretching comparison. The only similarity is maybe Estonia was founded after the Internet. They didn’t have as much legacy. They have even fewer legacy of working with paperwork, literally, so they could design things with Internet in mind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The other similarity is that it’s next to an interesting relationship power, which is why Estonia figures out all the different ways to use distributed ledgers to back up all the data in its digital embassies. In the off chance that Estonian people have to massively relocate, they can rediscover their identities based on whatever data they store in South Korea or something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is comparable to Taiwan, even though kind of a stretch. These are useful points to consider because the democratic institutions itself haven’t lived long enough to form the kind of shadowy relationship with Intel." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That sounded very pessimistic." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is true because it’s a culture thing. When young people feel that we’re really the first generation that can do democracy, it also comes with responsibility of designing something that’s useful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, if people in older Republican or Democratic traditions understand from school that it’s been like this for 100 years, 200 years, of course, there’s a, \"Oh, that’s how things are.\" From the onset, it’s a different perspective. One is of liminality, \"We need to grow up together.\" One is of maturity, \"Things has always been like this,\" or, \"We invented it hundreds of years ago.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I always say working with the government, not working for the government. What’s it for? It’s to figure out. It also enables, I would say, the social entrepreneurs in Taiwan. For example, I will use some of the examples that you may have heard of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "My mom was a co-founder in the Homemaker’s Union Environmental Foundation. It starts as a homemakers’ advocacy group for environmental rights, but then the homemakers figure out quite quickly that they need a purchasing power if they are going to negotiate with the agricultural workers on the way that they treat the land." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They formed a co-op afterwards, and it’s been around for 20 years now. They have enormous purchasing power and can actually negotiate directly with the municipal agricultural agencies and so on to set the terms of renewable and sustainable farming." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is almost like government’s work, but they had a head start because they started after the lifting of the martial law pretty much immediately, but before the first presidential election. They had a decade to gain legitimacy before the president gets legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Children Are Us Foundation has similar story, even though they are strictly non-profit. I think more than half of their income sources are self-funded, like by selling bakery goods and things like that. Again, they’re sustainable, economically, and so can argue in a much more peer-to-peer fashion with the government’s imperatives." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Tzu-Chi is also a good example. It starts as a charity, but now it runs hospitals, disaster relief, and even a new..." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "I think it’s a university originally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They also run its own university and medical center and training program." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It also has a completely, 100-percent-holding technology innovation company, which is very hip. Its brand name is DA.AI. [laughs] What it does is that they work with cutting-edge material science to turn the recycled plastics into clothing first, and then it can be recycled again into sunglasses, blankets, and whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s really cutting-edge research. They’re profitable, but 100 percent of their profit goes back to the Tzu-Chi mission. What I’m saying is that they’re also semi-sovereign in a sense, and they had a head start of a decade to do gain legitimacy." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That also makes it possible for them to say, \"We’re in the social sector. We’re working with profit, but not for profit. We’re working with the government, but not for the government.\" This is a popular stance, and not at all strange for our generation of people." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Nothing." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I was going to shift a little bit." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "That’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Maybe not. One thing we’ve heard, that there’s a very large number of engineers in Taiwan. A lot of the people who are in leadership positions often have engineering background. This is a more intellectual question that we have. We’re wondering to what extent do engineering epistemologies wind up shaping how governance is affected in Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is true that, especially in the Nationalist Party, there is a strong engineering view. I would say that Democratic Progressive Party is less led by engineers, but the KMT, definitely, there’s a strong emphasis on engineering point of view." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Could you elaborate on what?" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Why is it the case?" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I have a certain idea of what I think that means, but I’m curious what you think it means. Then we can compare notes. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, Premier Mao Chi-kuo, when I first started working with the cabinet, that was around the time when Premier Mao Chi-kuo was made premier, the year of the Occupy. The previous premier -- student of Hannah Arendt, not at all engineer," }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Jiang Yi-huah, resigned because of the Occupy and the election afterwards. His deputy, Mao Chi-kuo, became the premier." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "His deputy premier, Simon Chang, Chang San-cheng, also director of engineering, Google Taiwan, about data center. That’s super computing. That’s his field, the physical support of supercomputer centers. Mao Chi-kuo is, of course, specializing in traffic and civil engineering, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we hear about the kind of national direction of open data, of crowd-sourcing and so on, it was described in a very engineering point of view." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you go back to the national strategies about open data, crowd-sourcing, and things like that, it definitely talks about data as something like almost building block of a fairer democracy, a fairer society, and things like that. Yeah, that’s a very engineering point of view. I would definitely concur with that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Premier Lin Chuan and Premier Lai Ching-te, who are the other premiers that I’ve worked with, is less engineering. If you look at their speeches and so on, there’s much more emphasis on sustainability, around well-being, around the sustainable goals, around things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "While the engineering, of course, is still part of the so-called Industrial Innovation Plan, the focus is more on how do we redistribute the innovation fairly and democratically and how do we work with people in the most vulnerable positions to make sure it’s most inclusive growth." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The engineering is still there in the growth part, I guess, in inclusive growth, where you hear a lot more about inclusivity and inclusive growth, or a lot more about sustainability and sustainable development." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whereas the previous cabinet under Simon Chang definitely talked more about the engineering for development part in sustainable development." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "You’re talking about governance projects that are focused on engineering." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Or with an engineering mindset..." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah. Part of what we’re thinking about with an engineering mindset is even the idea that one would approach governance using metaphors of open source and open data. As an American, we don’t, obviously, because our democracy is hundreds of years old. That wouldn’t make sense." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "When I was in elementary school being taught about \"What is democracy?\" nobody would talk about open data or something like this in the 1970s in my elementary school." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. The term \"Open Source\" only appeared in 1997." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is actually right after the presidential election, [laughs] so for us, it’s kind of bound together cognitively." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s what I’m trying to...even some of the metaphors you use. Earlier, you described yourself. I think you used the phrase \"easily discoverable.\" You talk about yourself like you’re a piece of data on a network because you hold office hours in a building." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, discoverability." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "To me, that’s an engineering metaphor to talk about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do agree." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Part of what we’re interested in are the ways that those metaphors are shaping how things get done or how things are approached. In other words, not just about engineering projects, but even thinking about democracy in the language of engineering." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, there’s engineering and there’s engineering. My main work is in computer science, specifically computational linguistics and computer languages, like computer network and application of agent theory in computer networks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In my more academic contributions, all these are things that are made out of thin air. There’s no real, physical...It’s not like the supercomputer centers that Simon Chang worked in, which is made of concrete and is very concrete. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The algorithms that I helped discover, I wouldn’t say it’s engineering really. It’s always there. It’s mathematical. We just stumble across those simple structures. It’s a more mathematical view of engineering. It’s a more philosophical view." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When you’re creating a computer language, what you’re really doing is not engineering. What you’re doing is basically reconciling worldviews and finding metaphors. It’s almost like a poet’s work to make sure that people understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No matter which metaphor they use to approach the world, we make sure the metaphors are compatible. When I use the word discoverable, I don’t necessarily mean it in a tangible, engineering way." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "More in a network of information kind of way. I would concur that the network metaphor does inform a lot of the political and governance discourse here. I think that’s because when we had this democracy institutions, the World Wide Web is already there, and then hyperlinks is on everybody’s mind, and it become the dominant metaphor of a link-based relationship in governance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It just feels natural because definitely people see the World Wide Web and its democratic potentials as resembling the kind of semi-sovereign social entrepreneurship that was happening around the time of the ’90s. The old, bad dictatorship was like silos that were pre-World Wide Web days." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s also this implicit cognitive metaphor of the closed networks, the well-guarded, in the sense of one being a metaphor for the military law days, and the more free, hyperlinked world as a metaphor of the post-martial law days. That’s also, I think, in popular imagination." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "This is great. This is what we’ve intuited, but it’s nice to hear you say it, actually flash it out with some examples. When I think about open source, the way I’ve been taught to understand it, I think about it as an organizational strategy for IT development." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what we decided to market it, the free software movement." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "But it seems to be doing the work of shaping how governance gets done here in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Open source is a deliberate marketing strategy for people working on software freedom and other freedoms. Not necessarily everybody agree, but back in ’97, it’s a deliberate marketing campaign from people who self-describe as hackers to infiltrate the marketing department of large corporations, such as Netscape, to turn them to the light side of the force." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s very successful. Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Corporation remains one of the most profitable social enterprises anywhere in the world. They say that they’re a social enterprise right on the front page, just like that. Everything that Mozilla Corporation earns is donated back to the mission of the Mozilla Foundation, so it’s with-profit and not at all for-profit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would say the marketing campaign has worked so much so that Microsoft, which is now also GitHub, IBM, which is now also Red Hat, all dive into the campaign and have to be kept honest by the ethos of the early free software movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by saying open source, we distance a little bit from the fundamental freedom rhetoric, like human right rhetoric. If you start from the human right rhetoric, it feels something like this. [laughs] It’s large corporations decimating human right and human right fighters fighting for human right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Open source was a marketing approach to say, \"No, we can all contribute to the commons and you can build the commons in whichever way you want to build the commons.\" It’s a marketing campaign. As you said, it lured the IT industry into the commons, but commons was always there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The defining characteristics, the operational rules of the commons, is not at all set by the IT semi-sovereign entities." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That makes sense." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Do you have...?" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I don’t even know what time it is." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "It’s 11:00." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine. We have plenty of time." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "You’ve been talking about this in international terms, like open source, movement marketing, and these multinationals. We’re turning back to Taiwan. I would like to talk a little bit about Taiwanese identity. We already did earlier. You mentioned the liminality work. We’ve seen -- what is it? -- City Yeast." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Mm-hmm." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That was one of the groups that talked a lot about the identity of Taipei. This is something that has come up many times." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Even though we didn’t really prompt." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Even when we don’t ask, people start talking about it. Even when we just look at data online, people are talking about it. It seems to be something that’s on people’s minds. I can guess that some of it has to do with Taiwan’s history, relationship to China, the move to democracy from dictatorship." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "There’s all these very good reasons why. Obviously, culture and creative industries and creative economy would tie into these same sort of issues. I’m curious if you could talk a little bit about how you see it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The way I see it is very different. [laughs] When I think of Taiwan, I think of four million years ago when the plate tectonics...If you have been to Taroko Gorge, you know what I’m talking about. The two plates first start to clash, and Taiwan starts to raise, literally, from the plates." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even now, Taiwan raises, the Jade mountain raises five centimeters every year because of the earthquakes of the two plates. For me, that’s the identity of Taiwan. It’s very much defined by geology in the sense that we have constant earthquakes. People learn to work with the fact that the fault lines are a matter of everyday life." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a lot of pressure, literally, [laughs] from the two plates, but it also caused Taiwan to raise towards the stars five centimeters every year. It’s very consistent, and it’s like that for four million years before the first human beings came." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think about biodiversity. The marine area around here, we have 10 percent of the world’s marine species, which is a huge amount of biodiversity. The altitude of various climates also enables a large land-based biodiversity, which are already there before human beings started culture here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Think about the Austronesian cultures, of which there’s 16 nations now in Taiwan. That’s why we’re honoring the elders and the spirits of their way of working with nature as part of the truth and reconciliation process, but more broadly, as a way for us to feel connected." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I visited Wellington in the beginning of my liminal months -- that’s when the announcement that I’m going to be the digital minister was announced -- I was talking with people with Maori heritage in New Zealand. I learned a lot from their way of working on sustainability without even the word sustainability." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They make their river a legal person, so the river can sit on the board of a company and sue for damage if they damage the river. It’s a very Maori point of view. If a legal fiction can be a multinational company, certainly the river can be a legal non-fiction [laughs] that can assert personhood." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They attribute this worldview back to Taiwan. They pay pilgrimage and visit Taiwan. We have a separate diplomatic relationship between the Maori people and the indigenous nations here. They say that their languages, their culture, and whatever originates from Taitung or some nations which they visit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even after I become digital minister, they still visit and did a Maori dance thing in front of the Executive Yuan to show their spiritual linkage. I also visited Christ Church and Auckland and had very similar discussions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all the way to New Zealand, and also to Madagascar, I think. That starts 4,000 years ago. It’s described a little bit in the Disney animated film \"Moana.\" That’s also Taiwan. For me, that’s the beginning of Taiwan’s dispersion of culture or relating to nature that starts 4,000 years ago." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, there’s many other layers afterwards. There’s the Dutch people, Spanish people, and the Koxinga forces, aka the Pirate Party." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All those cultural strata are Taiwan. When I think of Taiwan, I think all of this biosphere, geological, and things like that, and we’re still raising five centimeters every day. I think it’s very important to keep this in mind. If we’re not prepared for earthquakes, typhoons, or whatever, then people who find these as natural disasters that are unbearable just move away. They always do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People who remain, by default, have to face those challenges from nature together instead of saying we engineer something to conquer earthquakes, which is possible, [laughs] we’ll just live with them. The 防震結構, the quake-proof structure applies not just physically to earthquakes and typhoons, but also for the ideological clashes and everything. I take this as metaphor." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I’m not following. You are talking about earthquakes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s people who identify themselves with the indigenous nations and see the ethnic Han or Dutch and Spanish as colonizers. There’s people who identify with these people and see the Qing Dynasty as the colonizers. There’s people in Taiwan who identify with the Qing people and see the Japanese as the colonizers. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s people who identify with the Japanese people and see the Nationalist Party as the colonizers. There’s people who identify with the KMT retreat and see the later influences as, well, not really colonizers, but influences by foreign powers. There’s people who identify with those foreign powers. [laughs] There’s many different strata." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s not connected to earthquakes, though." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It causes ideological earthquakes all the time." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Oh, I see. OK. I now follow you." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I was making notes. I’m like, \"Wait, ideology...What about fault lines?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There are fault lines. You can draw them on a memetic map..." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I didn’t realize that Taiwan was still rising, so that’s interesting to know. I did study some geology in college. I can look that up. Now I’m curious about the fault lines, but I’ll look it up online. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I skipped over this earlier but one question we did want to ask about was that it seems like a lot of the tools that are being developed and are being used are often being used by young people or a younger generation." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We’re just wondering what the implications for democracy are, like for parents, for example, who I don’t think will ever use any of these tools." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a concerted effort in g0v to work with people who are of a older generation. CoFact is a primary one. Before people start attributing gender bias, we’ll [laughs] stress that it’s not specifically talking about mothers..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...but it’s also talking about children, [laughs] and then also talking about siblings..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...and so on. It’s a random family member [laughs] every time you refresh." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "You attend to this, which is why..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do attend to it, but this is literally prompted by the fact that some g0v contributor discovered that for their parents and grandparents, Internet and Line are synonyms. They don’t know that there is an Internet beyond their instant message system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they spread a rumor and their children say, \"But you can just Google it. It’s literally their first Google hit that tells you that it’s not the case you described\" that they’re like, \"What’s Google?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not that the elders don’t use digital technologies. We have solid numbers to prove that they do. [laughs] It’s just their modality is different. There’s concerted g0v efforts to bring the Internet to the elderly people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Through the CoFact Bot is a prime example because then the elderly people or their children can just add the bot as a friend on the LINE communication system. Whenever you hear in your family LINE group that if you eat something and something, something will happen you to, [laughs] you can just forward. It’s the most popular boomer kind." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can just forward, like flag S spam, but just forward it to the bot and the bot will review it to the public Internet. People can crowdsource the fact-finding, and then the bot will get back to the elders saying, \"We checked, and it’s not quite like that.\" It’s catering to the elderly specifically." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now we have all the trending rumors at the moment on the LINE system, like you can use a piece of pie to save someone from cardiac arrest. [laughs] This bill is untrue. It surfaces what used to be just the dark Internet rumors into the public Web, much like what Spamhaus did with junk mail." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Do you know snopes.com?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Is this like Snopes?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, the Taiwan Fact Check Center, which is not a g0v project, but they do work with people in g0v, is more like Snopes. They apply more journalistic standards. CoFacts is like crowd-sourcing. They surface what’s on end-to-end encrypted channels into the public Web." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Once they’re on public Web, the Taiwan Fact Check Center can then work on it. Then they’re like Snopes. They clearly say, \"This is the rumor. It’s false, and this is exactly the journalistic approach we did.\" That’s the TFC." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "The Taiwan fact-checker would probably be a little bit slower and more authoritative, a little more Agile." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the second line in the baton passing. The elderly people spread rumors. Their family members send it to CoFact. Once there’s more than two reports of this same rumor, it appears on the public database. The TFC people may be looking at something that’s really popular and start investigating, and then they can publish a report saying that’s really not true." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Are the rumors...I can’t read this, sorry. The kind of rumors, are they fake news like we have in the US or are these more like fake health?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t use the F-word here, as a policy." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "[laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Cool. I want to hear about that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Both of my parents are journalist, and I think the F-word is not very helpful. Many journalists see the word and see it as an affront to their profession. It seemed to be talking about journalistic output that is incorrect. It’s sometimes being used in that sense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For people in, for example, online media, they sometimes use this same word to describe things that are not journalistic output, but adopt the pretense of a journalistic output, which has nothing overlap with the journalistic output that are not true, right? They are described by the same words." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "The same two words, conflated, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When I talk with the Taipei city mayor Ko Wen-je, a year ago, he thinks these two are not fake news. He thinks a journalistic output that is true, but the editor puts a misleading title on it, editorial sensationalism." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "He thinks that’s fake news because it’s faking the journalistic output’s impact on the society to make people view it in a biased frame of mind. I think that’s legitimate also, but then it means that word is used in Taiwan a year ago to describe three non-overlapping things, which makes it impossible to have a rational discourse." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, we use the term disinformation when it’s intentional, untrue, and causes harm. If it’s not intentional, then maybe it’s just misinformation. That’s the word we use now, so you see disinformation, or 假訊息." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t say fake news, or 假新聞 anymore. It’s not taboo, it’s just we try to discourage people from using that word." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I think you’re right. I think it is conflated in the US as well, so I understand. Now, I can ask my question in a better way. Is it for disinformation or misinformation?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The TFC works mostly with disinformation, like they think there is an intention to cause widespread misunderstanding. The CoFact works with everything, misinformation, personal opinion, which they classify as personal opinion, and things like that. The CoFact is much broader and it’s about misinformation in general." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "OK, got a picture of that. That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Should move on to the second one in the interest of time, I think." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, I think so." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ve plenty of time actually. My next visit is 1:00 PM. We might want to get lunch sometime, though." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah. We’ll try to respect your time. That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "One of the things that we have been reading about in the past few years for different reasons has been queer theory. We’ve just been trying to look at different things through that lens to see what we can see." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "This is a very early thought. This might be half-baked. It seems to us that there’s a way that...I’m hesitating, only because I’ve learned a lot in this conversation that’s making me rethink the question itself. I apologize if this comes out a little bit awkwardly." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "It seemed to me before we met [laughs] that a way that government worked in Taiwan was similar to the US, in the sense that you elect representatives, and the representatives stand for different political ideologies or different stances." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "The representatives are the ones who do a lot of the legislating, making decisions, and that kind of thing. The citizens have an indirect relationship that happens through formal processes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not really." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Not really? Then..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s there. That’s right, but in parallel, the more participatory, the more direct form of democracy was there at the beginning also." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "It’s also at the beginning?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not like we have representative for a hundred years, and then participatory, direct. It’s like, they all started in pretty much the same year." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Maybe that’s what I would like to understand a little bit better. It seems, again, growing up in the US, as an American, being told that democracy is A, B, and C, I have a very strong mental model of voting and legislation." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Direct participation of the sense that we can go out and protest, have petitions, and all this kind of stuff, but it’s actually very hard to effect change. It might also be part of the size of the US versus Taiwan might also be an effect." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s more fair to compare Taiwan to, say, New York City, the Bay Area, or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That might make sense. Could you talk about the early participatory and direct?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The keyword to Google, if you want, is 社造 or 社區總體營造, community capacity building. It has a very long history." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Currently, it’s being upgraded or rebranded as regional revitalization, 地方創生. That’s the new moniker we’re going to use, starting next year, which puts the birthrate and also economic growth into the 社造 mix, which was not always about birthrate or social entrepreneurship in the first place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "建構社區生命共同體 is, though. How do we even translate that? The community-bound by a common destiny, that’s the closest translation I can get." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The community of a common destiny was where the participatory forms of governance came about. It came about in terms of the community development associations or 社區發展協會. It comes about in participatory governance of setting the relationships between the social, economic and public sectors within one community." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The discourse using participatory governance approaches starts, I think, in 1994, which is, importantly, two years before the first presidential election. It’s on everybody’s mind, including community colleges, community co-ops, community assemblies, citizens’ council, I guess. I use these English words, but they don’t mean what they mean in the US. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I understand." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s on everybody’s mind, even before we cast our first presidential direct vote." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Is it correct to say, then, that the platforms like Pol.is and the initiatives that you’re having on open government, open data, join.gov -- you don’t see them as disruptive, you see them as very much continuous with this tradition that goes back?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Definitely." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "To go back to the earlier question that I asked about elderly people, that also would be a mechanism to involve them, because it actually is contiguous with..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. It’s those elderly people who are social workers and social activists who established this participatory governance system in the first place. We’re very much still connected. The person in charge of the National Development Council’s open data strategy and so on is Professor Tseng Shu-Cheng." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you look him up, he is actually one of the key leaders in the community-building effort in the ’90s, and also has a long history of working with the co-ops and the art intervention for regional vitalization in Tainan and so on. Used to be deputy mayor of Tainan under mayor Lai Ching-te." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we talk about open data and open-source and whatever, he totally gets it because he did it in a physical way, non-digital way, way before. It’s all part of a holistic strategy." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I didn’t understand this aspect. That helps. Is the relationship, then, between the formal governance and the more direct and participatory -- is that seen as complementary? Is it seen as all part of a single system? Are they in checks and balances? There’s that kind of relationship?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The word I use is we’re complementing but not reinforcing." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Can you elaborate on that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s a Buckminster Fuller quote." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s not the Buckminster Fuller quote. The Fuller quote is about not fighting with old systems. It’s about, quote, \"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete,\" which is a very Fuller thing to say." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "It is, yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what I mean by complementing, but not at all reinforcing." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Have you read Christopher Alexander? Do you know who that is?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People keep telling me to read him but not yet. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "He has a concept that you might like called a structure-preserving transformation. He looks in nature and at things that grow. Even when something develops or transforms into something else, its initial structure is still there. It’s just now it’s more elaborate and more rich." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "He talks about the preservation of life or design in the same way that good design are those that take primitive forms and that transform them but that primitive structure is still there." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I think what I’m hearing you describe the current generation of technology tools for direct and participatory democracy. What I’m hearing is it’s a structure preserving transformation, because what happens before is still part of it, and hasn’t been disrupted, broken, shattered, replaced, or made obsolete, but has just been informed into it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. In my training, which is mathematics and category theory, I always describe this as a natural transformation, which is transforming one functor to another, while representing the internal structure. That is to say, the composition of morphisms of the categories involved." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is a very precise mathematical definition, but that’s what I have in mind, when I think about digital transformation, is the natural transformation." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I think this is very much what Alexander is talking about." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Is there the query no longer?" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I’m not sure." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Makes sense, but at least we should talk about what originally you were thinking, at least very crudely. That’s where my mind went." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I think we were seeing things in terms of the dynamic relations, and specifically trying to counter a notion of binarisms. Rather, to see things in a more fluid and dynamic way. I’m not sure that it’s wrong, but I feel like I, at least, need to go back and just do some homework on this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I had a very long conversation with Paul Preciado, and Shu Lea Cheang, around this very topic just recently. I have the entire video recording and transcript, and also the annotations, the scribbles, which I will send to you. We talk about specifically this, about democracy in transition." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "The transition, you’re specifically referring to, from the military and from a dictatorship..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "To democratic, from a more singular view, to a pluralistic worldview." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Just a young democracy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s right." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "I just need to read more, and think more about this. I don’t want to say anything stupid." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "That’s what I feel like every day." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Me, too." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s why it’s fun to be a researcher. Just really quick, we’re almost out of time, but one thing that came to mind while we were working on the interview. Do you know Kristen Nygaard, a Norwegian? He’s one of the co-inventors of object-oriented programming." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, it rings the bell, yes." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Also, with Scandinavian participatory design." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yes, tradition." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "There was another analogue of somebody who was combining a computer science epistemology with very Scandinavian notions of what is democracy. Just another example of blurring those two lines. I think that’s something that we’re really interested in." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "What is his name again?" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "It’s N-Y-G-A-A-R-D. The first name is K-R-I-S-T-E-N." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Got it, Kristen." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, that’s him. In Scandinavia, they say he co-invented object-oriented programming. If you look at American Wikipedia, it was only invented in the US." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Similar, but yes. I know. It happens." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We did it all by ourselves. [laughs] In Scandinavia, it was a collaborative effort. It’s really interesting to see the ways that governments, ideology, and then the stories that we tell about computing all tie together. I think that’s one of the things that we’re trying to cover." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I never really understood the heroics narrative." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Of course, that’s definitely heroic..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When people talk about Sunflower, I’m one petal in the Sunflower Movement, and things like that. That’s a natural metaphor for me to use. All the heroics, I don’t really understand." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Well, the US context is tied to American notions of individualism, romanticism, and those kind of things. I think maybe here, it’s a different ideological apparatus." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very different." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Do you have...I think we’ve covered? You have your very last. This is about you." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I think, yeah. This might not immediately come to mind or make sense. We would love to get involved any way possible, and have more longer-term, and more sustained engagement, beyond just coming in." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I would love to, obviously, when we come visit your office and elsewhere in the Air Force Innovation Base, continue having these conversations. Today, is it impossible if we can do anything to help? Besides writing papers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. Shuyang has been our international collaboration liaison for two years now and will continue to work in that role. Just get in touch with Shuyang." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it’s more about academic research we actually work with a lot researchers. The Hanging Out ethnographic studies, at least with Fiorella, and with Yushan, that was really close and long-term hangout. We welcome you and your students." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Maybe to turn it into more proactive terms, what role do you think, as western academic researchers, we might have in helping to...? For our part, we can get funding talking about things like innovation, but our heart is not with innovation. I think we’re really interested in the deeper issues that we’ve been talking about." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "About the relation between democracy and technology, and not, there’s a simplistic American narrative about that. I think there’s a much more difficult narrative that you’re living in a day-to-day way. I think a lot of our questions is, is there a role for us?" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Not just to meet with you, take notes, and that kind of thing, but is there a role for our research actually to help further the kind of work that you’re doing? I think that’s the question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We use the term social innovation now in Taiwan, broadly defined as any innovation that involves people toward common sustainable goals. That’s the working definition we have." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We do have a lot of people in the academic circles trying to figure out how to grow social innovation in a way that is not strictly limited to the traditional corporate social responsibility point of view, which I’m sure you are familiar with. Just developing these thoughts is useful. I do read your papers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just getting in touch with the circles here that works on social innovation theory. They also have many popular blogs and so on talking in a more layperson’s terms and trying to make it more understandable..." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Accessible?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Accessible by the general public. One group we’re working closely with is the Social Enterprise Insights group, the SE Insights. Another one is NPOst. NPOst did quite a few work with the American counterparts of people working on similar things in a also very-difficult way because of the, as you said, the political imagination. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, here, the CIO of CARE International, Dar Vanderbeck, the NPOst people invited her and I -- conversation of the possible points of both academic but also governance relationships. They distilled this into something that the local people can feel as important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not abstract sustainable goals as it is a UN thing, but rather an everyday thing. They tried to explain important new concepts like deep canvassing and things like that in a local social frame, which is more like popular science work than academic work, but again, that is also important." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I would also encourage you to just get in touch, or just give the SE Insights and En Post and other related blogs a cursory view and maybe it’s possible to bridge some of your learnings with the local popular science scene. I think that’s also important to have the academics seen as a somewhat accessible, almost like office hours online..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "...that you can just explain things in a very engaging way with people. That’s also important." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "If you think about something feel free to call us, because we have a colleague at Mozilla. Anyway, he mentioned that you guys are working on some kind of...I suppose a language." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, we’re working with Common Voice." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yes. Yes, that’s the thing. He mentioned it to us right before we..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very important to Taiwan, because of the National Language Act that we’re going to pass. Basically, anyone can say, \"In my school, I want to learn about astronomy, but in Sakizaya,\" or maybe in Taiwanese Hakka... The education system needs to deliver." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s exactly single digit amount of people that can teach a certain field in a certain indigenous language, which is why machine translation is very, very important. Also, we don’t want people to fit their accent to be recognized by Siri, which will decimate, actually, the natural pluralistic view." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re also working with not-for-profit entities, like the AILabs, Taiwan, to develop a local speech recognition and synthesis mechanisms -- mostly recognition now with AILabs -- that reflects Taiwan’s natural language, accent, and whatever distribution, without forcing people to speak in perfect standard Mandarin. Common Voices is, of course, a large part of it." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s good to know. That act, you said it hasn’t been passed?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, but it’s scheduled to be passed, I think, real soon now, The National Languages Act." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "That’s been debated for a long time. All right?" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah. I think I will send you a follow-up message. Maybe we can schedule some time to visit." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "I’ve sent you all the links we touched, maybe 30 percent of the links we touched. Do you want me to take a picture of you?" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If Shaowen has a bit of time, I would encourage you to take a visit to the Social Innovation Lab." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Yes, that’s what I will obviously..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She’s a keyholder, right?" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah, a keyholder." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Oh, you have the key, huh?" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Well, I don’t have a key anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You don’t have the RFID key?" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "They changed the phrases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They changed the NFC key? Too bad." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "They canceled my card." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, really? I can give you my card. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Send it to us?" }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "Yeah. I’ll send it to you right away." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "I have a list of things I have to follow up on with you. Especially getting the thing you talked about, the conversation you have on the 27th of November?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s actually all on our web page. If you go to pdis.tw and choose track, or just go to track.pdis.tw, that’s easier. You can see that conversation with Paul B. Preciado, and you’ll see YouTube transcript box." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Did you write down your..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The website is track.pdis.tw. When you go there, which is also where we’ll be publishing this transcript. When you go there, just look for a conversation with Paul Preciado, and then you can get the YouTube transcript, and the documents." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also maybe interesting is an interview with Jaromil, who works in dyne.org, which is a popular maker collective, in Amsterdam, I believe. He now runs the so-called Algorithmic Sovereignty Observatory. We talk about the way I view politics as a politician, and how that has some link with the Icelandic pirate party leader, Brigitta, I think? Right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "About poem-based politics, and also the way that I think about algorithm and code-based normativity. The Jaromil one may be worth reviewing. It’s very short. It’s literally just a few minutes. The Paul B. Preciado one is much longer." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Really quickly, what was the mathematical term that’s like a structure-preserving..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Natural transformation. It’s like the first discovery that justifies the field of category theory." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "We have a colleague who’s a designer, but also has a background in math. I will have to ask him if structure-preserving transformation and natural transformation are indeed the same idea. I will probably have a four-hour answer to that, but that’s OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s fine. You just start drawing squares with arrows. [laughs] OK, cool." }, { "speaker": "Shaowen Bardzell", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Thank you so much, really, we really appreciate this." }, { "speaker": "Shuyang Lin", "speech": "The books?" }, { "speaker": "Jeffrey Bardzell", "speech": "Yeah, and the books." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The comic books. [laughs]" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝大家來開這個關於《數通法》草案立法協商過程中，各方所提出之參考建議盤點的意見蒐集會議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天稍早，羅秉成政委和Kolas Yotaka發言人在直播記者會上，已經有比較完整的說明。他們不是針對《數通法》草案，也不是只針對修法，而是大致講了我們在禮拜四在院會，要討論的架構。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛有強調，言論自由是最主要的價值。我們集思廣益的本意，是希望在處理這一件事的過程中，如果大家看到言論自由價值可能會受到影響的部分，請儘量讓我們知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "行政院「假訊息危害防制小組」是由羅政委召集、Kolas跟我協助。主要的工作是盤點行政院一同協力的夥伴，以及現有各部會的措施，看怎麼樣能夠讓大家的貢獻彙聚在一起。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就如大家所知，院版的《數通法》草案，去年已經出了行政院。在當時提出了私權模式，我等一下會給大家看第16條。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先講一下，黑色字的是院版的《數通法》草案，目前在送到立法院、經過一讀之後，是黑色字的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家也會看到一些綠色字的部分。這些是各界朋友們，針對去年提到立法院的《數通法》草案，最近給出的一些批評指教。我們今天的工作就是彙整起來，交給立法院正在討論這件事的朋友們參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這部草案跟其他法制不太一樣。其他法制，行政院會在禮拜四，提出第一波修法提案。但是《數通法》草案，行政院不會提修正案。只是蒐集各界的意見，讓委員們參考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，今天綠色的字樣「#1」是我們之前收到的意見。好比說在第16條的私權處理範圍裡面，「使他人無法接取之，或未為其他適當之處置」前面，有些朋友希望能加上「或加註警示訊息」，作為一種私權爭議的適當處置。羅政委在稍早的直播有提到，這個是各界正在討論的事情之一。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "再次強調：這些意見，以及今天所有的討論紀錄，都是請羅政委轉交立法院的朋友們參考。我們不會推出院版的《數通法》修正案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天的內容裡紅色字樣的部分，是更早之前，跟學者、同仁、委員們討論時，曾經收到過的具體建議。這些也都不是院版的範圍。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像對於接取服務，也就是ISP的提供商，有些朋友希望在提供接取服務的時候，對接取者揭露的，除了網路流量管理措施之外，也要包含從哪個國家或地域接取。這裡的主體是接取服務，不是內容平台。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以上都是討論時曾經收到過的意見。同樣的，這些並不是我們行政院的立場，只是表示有收到過這些意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天會做逐字紀錄，大家可以儘量發言。今天的紀錄，會經過大家編修再公開。是不是要用自己的真名，或者是以代表的團體作為發言者，這都可以之後修改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對於發言的內容，如果覺得記錄不一定完全都有記到，或者有些補充資料，在之後的修改期裡面，也都非常歡迎大家繼續刪改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這份逐字紀錄雖然大家都可以修改，但我們希望等到禮拜四開完院會，在記者會上我們會提出完整的架構之後，再讓大家知道有過這樣的討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於逐字稿公開的時間，一般的慣例是大家都做完修改、覺得可接受之後再公開，目前設在月底。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在此之前，各位確認過全部的發言、大概沒有什麼太大的問題之後，我會請羅政委轉知相關的立委。以上是我們今天討論的方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等一下歡迎就這一件事本身發言，我也會一張張投影，歡迎對具體的文字發言、進行調整、釐清等等，這一些都是完全ok的，也沒有發言順序，大概就是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在進投影之前，有沒有想要表達或者是詢問的部分？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我想請教為什麼只有三家業者？如果關乎內容是全部平台的話，這會有一點偏聽，而且三家都是境外，不曉得當初只邀集三家境外業者的目的是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主要的目的是這樣：相信大家也知道，平台業者是我們的協力夥伴。FB、Google在類似的管轄領域裡面，各國都有做過一些相關的措施。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一方面是我們在做國際法比較的時候，羅政委也常常提到，好比像FB是很好的例子，一面法遵德國的NetzDG，又提出憲法適用性的疑義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "《數通法》草案裡，私權模式的這一整套，是跟著作權，從加拿大notice and notice到美國notice and takedown，就是notice and do something的這一套，基本上是相似的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們希望國際業者來討論的原因是，各位在別的管轄領域裡面，不管是透明報告揭露、法遵，可能有累積一些經驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除此之外，也包含如果國際法制上，包括德國、法國的相關規定，有一些大家認為不太容易遵守的，或是認為有憲法相關疑慮的部分。如果只問境內業者的話，沒有辦法那麼容易提出觀點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此第一輪比較想要討論的是，雖然我們有收到各界自己認為合乎技術跟憲法規範的某些想法，但是從業者的角度，或許有不同的看法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們會比較想要知道，從業者的角度，尤其是國際業者的角度，怎麼看這些意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家有沒有其他的問題？或者是想要表達的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，我們就一張張投影片走。右下角都有頁碼，隨時都歡迎說回到某個地方去。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第1頁）絕大部分是現有的院版。唯一的一個提議，是希望ISP用明確可識別之標示，對接取者揭露他是從哪個國家或區域連線過來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "技術上這可以達成，不過跟各位的影響可能不大，除非各位要開始經營ISP業務。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但目前看起來這個是對提供接取服務的要求。這只是一種想法而已，就是有這樣的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們往下。（簡報第2頁）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接著是私權模式，大家可能知道最早《電子通訊傳播法》在討論時，是都要滿足，後來《數位通訊傳播法》草案改成「之一」，意思是在滿足兩個條件任何一個的情況下，都不需要負賠償責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個是「所傳輸之資訊係由使用者發動或請求，且通訊傳播服務提供者完全沒有改變其他使用者存取之資訊」，就是原樣來稿照登的情況下，不負賠償責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個是，假設你不是來稿照登，而是有額外做一些編輯或處理工作，如果這樣的話，權利人一通知有侵權行為的時候，就需要做移除、使他人無法接取，或者為其他適當之處置。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊也有民間的朋友有提出，希望把「或加註警示訊息」明白提到這裡來，當作適當之處置。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是私權的部分，看大家有沒有什麼想法、意見？對於文字都可以改，如果覺得「警示訊息」不清楚，要加別的，也都可以改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果都沒有的話，我們就往下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個又是剛剛的私權模式（簡報第3頁），這個講的是，如果要負連帶責任，又沒有做適當處置，而依法應負賠償責任者，法院得因被害人之請求，依侵害情節，酌定損害額五倍以下之懲罰性賠償，也就是加重實質賠償的額度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是跟平台的，所以是跟各位有關係的，這是對私權模式的一個額外條款的意見，看大家有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "臺灣連線代表發言。針對條文寫「知悉使用者散布資訊」，這邊的「知悉」指的涵意為何？是指平台業者知悉有一使用者散布了資訊，或是知悉使用者是「故意」散布了「不實」資訊？「知悉」的程度究竟要到何標準？當主管機關通知平台業者移除或採取相關處置時，是否就可稱為「知悉」？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊的用字和前面是相同的，「經權利人通知或知悉」。哪一位要幫忙解釋？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "在針對具體條文表示意見之前，對於此次新增平台業者就不實資訊負有相關義務的作法，有一些原則性的想法與觀點，不確定是否等下會有適當時間可讓業者對此表示意見，或是現在先針對條文表達看法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這是現有的文字，「經權利人通知或知悉」是《數通法》本來院版草案就有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以如果想要對「知悉」討論的話，請先在這裡討論。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "原本條文所指的是「涉有侵權」，也就是只要有人提出爭議出來，就可以符合業者知悉涉有侵權要件。但是新增條文是「知悉使用者散布不實資訊」，所以此處「知悉」的概念就跟「知悉涉有侵權」程度有所不同。所謂的「使用者散布不實資訊」是故意散布「不實」還是只是具有散布資訊的故意（但不知資訊屬於不實），從條文並無法看出來業者在何時才負有責任，適用上就會產生困擾。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡提出的問題是，前面的標的是「侵權行為」，但是後面的這個標的是「散布不實資訊」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果好比一切都要罰五倍，我們當然也不用來討論這一件事，但因為這邊講的是「散布不實資訊」才要罰五倍，因此想要詢問這個「知悉」是某一個法令的主管機關，跟你認定是不實資訊？或者是不會有主管機關，那個權利人說不實資訊，你就要該當這個通知是不實資訊？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "權利人覺得侵害了我的某個私權，而且這個是不實資訊，所以也會變成罰五倍？" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "這個針對你所說的「知悉」是針對你所謂的「不實資訊」，也就是知悉到使用者散布是不實資訊，因為前面是「經權利人通知」，後面是「或知悉」，有可能不是權利人，有可能是第三人告訴你，也有可能是第三人告訴你，也有可能是主管機關告訴你，因此這個「知悉」是你「知悉」了，重點是在於你知悉的是所散布為不實的資訊。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "現在的重點是我不會知道那個資訊是不是不實。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "對，我們怎麼會知道？" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "對，所以有人會告訴你這個是不實資訊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像你們一開始也不知道，是否是真的侵權行為，這是很類似的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "這邊是「涉有侵權行為」，因此我知道有一個爭議在那邊。" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "所以那也是一樣的道理，可能會有一個人告訴你認為那個是不實的資訊，當然這個是你知道的。" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "當然後面的賠償責任是當這個人依法要負賠償責任的時候，你們的責任產生，如果散布的人沒有賠償責任的話，你們自然不會有賠償責任。" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "因此，當有人告訴你說這個是不實資訊時，就是知悉他使用者散布的不實資訊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先重述一次，當權利人通知，或者是第三人通知這個侵權行為的時候，平台這邊可以有一個判斷，這是單純無涉不實資訊的侵權行為，或是關乎不實資訊的侵權行為。這不是一個實質的判斷，只是「通知或知悉」的內容裡面，是不是跟不實資訊有關。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所謂有關，意思是權利人或者是第三人覺得這個有關、而法院最終也覺得這樣子沒有錯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有按照前面兩個情形之一的話，這一個才會被觸發。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "這邊是講「酌定損害額五倍以下之懲罰性賠償」。當平台業者被課予這樣的義務的時候，一旦業者受到通知說其平台上有不實資訊時，為避免受到損害額五倍的賠償，一定就會立即處理，即便該資訊可能並不是不實，從而對網路言論產生了寒蟬效應。因此，這樣的通知，不應該是由只是具行政權的政府就可為之，而應該是透過法院來認定才不會有政府箝制言論的疑慮產生。" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "這個可能要搭配原來草案規範的回復機制，或者是你認為這個是不實資訊時，你還要通知散布的那個人，你要通知他，有人跟他講這是不實資訊，會有一些申訴或什麼的配套機制存在。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，權利人必須限期提出告訴。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "但那個是有政府機關的通知之下。" }, { "speaker": "張曉雯", "speech": "不是。原來《數通法》草案有規範，在私權的情況之下，是由權利人會覺得權利受到損害，所以他可能會通知業者，業者就要通知使用者：「有人說你的資訊是不實的，侵害到他的權利。」這是送到立法院《數通法》草案第16條裡面是這樣規範的，因此是有一些配套的存在。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想問兩個問題：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，LINE的情況，因為是所謂點對點加密，即使沒有加密，只要是點對點傳輸的話，你們不是可以直接主張第一點的情況嗎？" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "這個是我想要問的問題，我是跟隨臉書的夥伴一起來的，草案第16條原本的條文是提供兩個安全港，符合就可以沒有責任，我想要請教第2項的新增，是不是已經在第1項的範圍裡？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒錯，是「依法應負賠償責任時」才適用。" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "對，我舉例。假設不管是臉書或是LINE，原則上不會更動使用者貼的資訊，一個字不動，但一個字不動的狀況之下，有人跟我說別人貼的東西是侵犯他的權利，落入第2項的情況時，第2項的機制感覺起來就會啟動，如果沒有做移除或做這些適當處置，那就會有五倍的懲罰性金額嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是第16條前面不是已經說了？這個侵權行為，只要你沒有去改變使用者存取之資訊，那你就這個行為而言，本來就不負賠償責任。所以0的五倍還是0。" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "從律師的角度有一點不太確定，您剛剛的解讀是我們認為的解讀，但是這個條文本身好像沒有辦法提供足夠的……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。這些文字都是初步意見，都可以修改的。有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我想跟主管機關應該沒有任何關係，現在還在講私權行為，應該不會有任何主管機關在裡面的問題，只是現在的第2項，現在是要講第1項第2款？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "現在排起來是有可能讓別人誤解，也就是第1項第2款，符合第2款的時候，如果沒有做的話，就會有第2項的……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你的意思是我們再直接多寫一句「就前項第1款情形者，不適用之」？" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "我不是說贊成第2項，只是說如果第2項要存在，第2項的第1句話應該是「就前項第2款之情形」，然後再看順著什麼，我們現在只是講這個題目，不代表我贊成這個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，我們有逐字稿，不會搞錯。" }, { "speaker": "詹婷怡", "speech": "我不是要表達意見，我只是要協助討論，現在的現行法侵權行為跟目前加上去，我不知道這兩個加上去是要指同一個東西或者是不同的東西，從法律的構成要件來看，這是可以一樣或不一樣的，所以我覺得這個部分可能要釐清，不然沒有辦法表示意見，這個是我說的實話。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊講的是，如果我們這邊講的是侵權行為，那不實資訊未必構成侵權行為，侵權行為未必有不實資訊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要討論的話，也許就像剛剛律師所說的，這一段必須限縮在交集裡，就是既是侵權行為，又有不實資訊，而且還沒有第1款的適用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這三個互相重疊的情況，才適用這個，對不對？這個是剛剛詹主委的具體意見。" }, { "speaker": "詹婷怡", "speech": "是可以往下討論的基礎。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個是，剛剛講說會不會馬上有壓力進行處置。如果這樣釐清的話，你們絕大部分的行為都落入第1款，所以忽然沒有這個壓力了？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "政委剛剛有一個提醒，我們也贊同，像第2項講「散布」，是對不特定多數人的行為，如果像特定個人對特定個人的通訊，例如通訊軟體或者是LINE或者是FB Messanger，由於只是特定個人間的通訊內容，是否還屬於「散布」（即流傳於不特定多數人）的概念？建議可直接在立法理由註明散布的概念以杜疑義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是非常好的提議。對於散布是不是要特別講說「是何種情況下才算是散布」，您希望要寫在立法理由裡面，特別要排除掉剛剛講一對一的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等一下也會有相關的意見文字。這邊的意見是說，在立法理由裡面也要註明。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "坦白來說我們今天是第一次看到正式的草案，實際上我們來，雖然之前有非正式的討論過，但是並沒有真正的文字，沒有辦法跟內部做更完整的討論，我想同業都是這樣，只是我們大概知道、大概想一下；當然現場有幾位律師可以幫我們挑這個。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "雖然行政院沒有要自己提版本，您剛剛有提到，但是這個影響的層面非常大，是不是今天就唯一一次提供意見的管道？這個事情是我們非常非常擔心的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該不是，我也理解您的擔心。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "行政院會提出來的法案，都要經過立法院一、二、三讀的程序。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "打斷一下，我們非常堅定的是，只要有侵害到言論自由、商業自由的，我們都不太支持。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "回到剛剛提的，今天這樣子的內容在《數位通訊傳播法》之前完全沒有討論過，現在加的東西並不是加一、兩條或一、兩個字，而是加新的，對於行政機關增加權利義務、對業者增加義務，並不是一、兩個字可以打發掉，因此我們並不覺得這個是交給立法院討論，如果正辦的話，行政院可能要把院裡面的東西拿回來嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "因為現在增加的東西是完全新的，在任何的討論上都沒有出現過，尤其對平台業者增加責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前已有委員提過相關的修訂想法。後來我們收到各界朋友的建議，也覺得在執行上，有些構想的可行性需要更多討論，才會出現這兩組意見。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "但一樣沒有很完整的討論空間，也不是之前討論或是委員會討論，而是黨政協商的時候丟出來，你一言、我一句，就很像要把大家言論的空間做一些限縮，讓平台業者的經營做一些限縮，我覺得這個可能不會是適合的做法。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我回應一下，我覺得陳奕儒講得很有道理，我找了一下，行政院發布為了強化國際規範的接軌，希望各個主管機關在研擬法律及法規命令草案至少要公告周知60日，這是至少要公告周知60日。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我知道您剛剛講DCA之前有非常長的討論，現在只是增加幾個條文，可是容我不客氣地說，如果這個理論成立的話，任何主管機關都可以先提無傷大雅的法案，在進入朝野協商之前就用附加一個法案的方式來提出比較有爭議性的，不是就牴觸了行政院自己這份公告的意義？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "嚴格來說，那份公告周知的函，雖然是規範所有法規命令草案，但不是所有的法律草案。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "法律及法規命令草案？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "法律草案的六十天公告，是以跟經貿、投資、智財等等有關為主。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們確實在「Join」平台，對於法律草案都是盡可能公告，但是「法律草案經主管機關檢視確認與貿易、投資或智慧財產權無關者，得免為公告周知」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這次全面修法的第一波法律草案，當時院裡同仁填報的檢視結果，都是跟經貿、投資、智財無關。所以按照那個函，是免於公告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，在第一波之後，接下來如果有更充足的時間，相信各主管機關也不會吝惜於先行公告。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "謝謝。坦白來說我們知道這一件事非常緊急，而且我們知道立法院快要休會了，這個有緊急性。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "如果行政院週四要公布所搜集的意見，請立法院來考慮的話，由於《數通法》是列為優先法案，有可能就在這個會期要結束之前就把這個法案處理，所以我們只剩下大概一個月左右的時間可以討論，比照其他國家，像德國或者亞洲很多國家，最近十八個月、二十四個月都在討論類似的法令，我跟同事瞭解，德國討論一年多、兩年的時間，新加坡非常低調討論，也討論了十八個月左右。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "也許是八個月，但可能比我們一個月還是長很多，韓國這邊據我跟同事瞭解，應該是有各個不同的版本在討論，但是因為爭議過大，他們其實目前並沒有一個版本是要被推過去，這也是經過一年多的討論，如果我們看其他國家在處理有關無論是假新聞或者是misinformation的經驗上，看起來都花了滿長的時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想先不用以那個函為前提，直接詢問大家：多長的公開討論期，是讓各位覺得舒服的？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "至少60天。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我覺得60天是最小值。後端會涉及到我們要做一些程式修改的話，可能需要更多時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "程式修改是看施行日期，那是行政院定之。如果大家都覺得要花兩個月、四個月、或六個月才可以改完程式，這倒不是立法院決定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個的前提，是要這一整套大家都ok。如果要三個月改程式，沒有關係，我們可以過三個月再生效，這個是回到行政院。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是在立法過程，關於這一個處理模式本身——不是什麼時候生效——大家覺得討論多久比較好？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "兩位都覺得要至少60天，當然更長更好。看大家覺得？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "剛才有提到德國或者是法國的相關立法，大家知道歐盟其實自己也鼓勵先有一自律機制，甚至在9月份的時候，相關網路平台業者與廣告業者也推出一個自律公約出來，而為歐盟執委會委員的歡迎，並認為可先透過自律機制的成效再來評估有無立法必要。我國在短時間之內就提出這樣的修法內容，連產業自律的可能都還未先經評估，實過於倉促。不能因為說德國、法國有立法，好像我們就當然而然可以不用先讓業者有提出自律機制的可能。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "另外在德國、法國的法律部分，我們現在的草案似乎是將其拼裝在一起。如果我理解沒有錯，法國法下仍然是採取法官保留原則，也就是法官來命令網路平台移除或適當處置，但《數位通傳法》此次的草案內容卻還是讓行政機關享有此命平台業者改善的權限。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "縱然在德國法部分，行政機關有這樣的權限，但是所適用言論性質的並不是不實言論，而是例如仇恨性言論。我們把德國與法國法兩個拼湊出讓我國行政機關有權利對不實言論加以控管，但不實言論相較於仇恨性言論更難以界定，自然更需要採取法官保留。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常好的論點。那你們在提出自律機制上，打算做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "現在討論法律要怎麼調整。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。假設先拋開這些不談，如果依你說，要按照歐盟那樣，去觀察一段時間的自律機制。我只是想問，那「一段時間」在你的心目中是多長？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "歐盟至少每一個年度去看平台業者做的自律狀況怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以至少要有一年以上的review，再來處理這個部分？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "再來看有沒有立法的必要性。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我們今天下午討論，發現德國是先觀察，這個也是我們想要講的，德國的NetzDG，可能中文媒體有一些報導的誤解，其實是針對hate speech、agitation罰，而不是不實資訊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我們都理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我們的看法是，像hate speech這是比較容易有客觀的，大部分的人都認為這個應該是hate speech或者可能是sexual content，但「不實資訊」，我跟他對於一件事很快有是否是不實資訊，可能有不同標準，如果由政府機關來決定這個東西是不實，我們平台就要採取責任的話，這個是不是真的適合？我們覺得可能再討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "誠然notice可以是權利人或者是政府機關，但是最後的判決是由法院去做終局判決，這整套是並沒有脫離私權模式判例的這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在notice跟終局判決中間有課予相關人等的義務，這在私權模式本來就有了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前有朋友提出他們覺得在接獲notice的時候，不願意take down，只願意notice and notice，接到一個notice先加上警示訊息，但是take down應該要發生在法院終局裁判（notice and judicial take down）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是我們之前收過的一個意見，讓這兩個像剛剛所講的拼裝，並不是硬接在一起，而是中間有緩衝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我剛剛也有聽到，希望一年以上檢視業者的自律、做某些實驗觀察，然後再回來看，是否有些可以拿到《通傳法》的處理模式裡面，聽起來是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得其他朋友有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我認為我們今天比較能夠表達的是一些原則性的事項，而無法針對草案做細項討論，從我們接到開會通知到今天時間相當短，也只能先和臺灣的團隊討論，我們必須要跟國外總部討論過才能對這些修法方向提出正式意見。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們可以拿到文字嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看今天最後談的怎麼樣。不過到目前為止，聽大家的意見，是要回到drawing board——那這些文字就不會留下來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但大家會拿到逐字稿，可以從逐字稿還原討論的過程。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果照唸的話，會留下嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我要講的是，既然大家對這些建議覺得有很多問題，那就回到drawing board。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天只是把各方建議綜整之後，提到這邊來。有一些原則性的意見，這我有聽到。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "每一家公司內部的程序不一樣，至少有一個很確定，我們都是外商公司，我們的法務也不一定都在臺灣，這個東西是需要很細的法務去盤整，然後去檢查到底是什麼，如果沒有文字，其實法務同事也沒有辦法做這樣的工作，下一次來也是講原則的事，這個沒有交集。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我理解。我會去問羅政委，到哪一個時間點上、如何可以提供各界討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我現在沒有辦法承諾。一開始我接到的說明，就是沒有要印出來、單純投影而已，因為這些只是各方意見的彙整。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "但是想要請各位理解，如果這樣子的話，真的很難提供意見，其實我們的同事很難理解「為何你手上沒有文字」，我只能用我的記憶告訴他們「我看到是這個」，這樣不精確的狀況下，很難檢視這個法跟其他的法是否有衝突，我們都是外商公司，必須了解法令修正與當地的其他法規還有公司政策，到底能不能接軌，不能一切都是憑我們的記憶為基準來討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣的話，我是不是可以重新確認剛剛各位的意見：意思是「有具體文字」的公開徵詢程序，至少60天？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "當然，有具體文字出來之後60天。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，所以今天不能算成起點。而是有具體文字出來、你們拿給法務看，開始算60天？我沒有曲解你的真實意思吧？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "至少60天。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好的。這個我會讓羅政委知道。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "具體文字的部分，是不是能夠附立法理由？因為我們知道在臺灣這邊立法理由是很重要，像剛剛討論的權利人，我們就有不同的看法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我很誠實地說，紅字、綠字都還沒有。只有一些中間討論的紀錄，但是並沒有強到當立法理由的程度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "黑字的部分是有說明的，因為是院版的草案，但是其他的部分，是沒有說明的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們從開始組成這個小組以來，陸續收到意見。給我們這些意見的人，也沒有附很完整的說明。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我同意剛剛所說的，至少60天在我們有具體的文字，最好是有加立法說明的時刻開始，我知道您剛剛所說這個不適用，但是我們希望至少能夠用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我會如實讓羅政委知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，我想要問的是，Google裡面的YouTube或者是其他的產品部門，目前都還沒有開始徵詢？" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "目前都還沒有，他們要看到完整的文字，坦白來說我們都是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "這裡要補充一下，因為這個有紀錄，特別現在院際的關係，大家都很重視。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "我們要講清楚：這個法案處於朝野協商階段，立法院什麼時候要審、哪一些委員要提什麼文字，不能讓外界誤解這個是行政院可以控制的。這個是不對的。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "也就是說，今天行政院覺得要多久、要公開討論是一回事。但是立法院什麼時候要進行朝野協商、召委什麼時候排案、委員或黨團想要提什麼，不能讓外界以為是行政院在操縱，這是不對的。我們要講清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們唯一能做的是：我會把今天大家的意見讓羅政委知道、羅政委會讓立院的朋友們知道。所以他們會知道各位有提出過這一些論點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但不能讓大家有一個感覺——事實上也不是這樣子——就是好像我們在行政院可以決定召委什麼時候開會。並不是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "關於整個setting有沒有什麼想要討論的？不然我們先看一下文字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛才是到加註警示訊息這裡，有提出兩個建議：一個是希望明文加上「前項第2款的情形」，第二個是對於「散布」，至少在立法理由裡面，明確定義何種情況是所謂的散布。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是沒有問題的。第16條看大家有沒有意見？" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "順著文字我再回應一下剛剛同事所提的，「知悉」在法律上很不明確，我覺得這個責任如果這麼重大，應該至少要到「明知」的程度，就是明知不實資訊，不可以阻擋，像剛剛講到仇恨言論、色情言論，普通有常識的人一看就知道，人家講的是對的，拒絕take down之後遭到這樣的責任，大家或許無話可說，如果要採取這麼嚴苛的態度，至少要到「明知」的程度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有記下來。看大家有沒有其他的想法？如果沒有的話，我們就往第4頁走。（簡報第4頁）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Max有提到全新感受的部分，也就是所謂的公益模式。這裡說的是「為免危害擴大」，這個是它的公益目的，如果是公益條款，目的就是「為免危害擴大」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡跟私權模式相比，有兩個不同的意見。第一個意見是要二十四小時處理，意思是有個明確的時限。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有朋友提出，應該是「或加註警示訊息」。事實上不只一位朋友，都認為要做實質判定非常困難，所以在系統上為了不侵害言論自由，他們可以接受的是在二十四小時內加註警示訊息，再慢慢看事情是不是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是我目前有收到的，就看大家對於公益目的有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "完全反對。這樣的條款是賦予行政權對於網路言論、內容做價值判斷的權利。違法通常要法院判斷……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這就是一個notice。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "……這個是不是違法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主管機關不能做最終的判斷。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們舉一個例子，我們之前收到衛福部的例子，衛福部曾經跟我們要求要移除一個內容，這個內容是有關疫情不實資訊，內容是ETtoday的報導，說臺灣現在的「健保將會納入比較好的愛滋醫療法」，這個報導有提到因此可能很多外國人就會湧入臺灣，他們認為這個是對於疫情不實資訊，要我們移除。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果這個法律通過的話，也就是「傳染病防治法流行疫情」的不實資訊，我們必須要移除，但是我們當時看的時候，覺得非常牽強，所以我們公司就ignore。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果法律規定是這樣的話，我們只有在二十四小時移除的責任，或者是停權？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那可以用警示訊息？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "現在看起來中央主管機關是要得到這個權力去評價這樣的內容。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你指的是「有關於流行病傳染疫情的不實資訊」？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們發現臺灣的行政機關在運用法令的時候，常常過度延伸，這個是我們非常關切的，這個是傳染病。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果今天講的是《總統副總統選舉罷免法》、《公職人員選舉罷免法》，基本上所有意圖使人不當選的舉發都是政治目的，所有這樣的內容也都是政治言論，我們很難作判斷，如果今天中央主管機關、政府在這個可以對政治言論判斷的話，我覺得這個是對言論自由非常大的殘害。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，你們覺得中選會……" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "中選會！對不起，讓我非常大聲講一下。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "中選會認為不實資訊的內容，每一個都不符合我們的法律判斷，所以我們非常懷疑行政機關可以有這樣的權力，不論舉報的品質如何。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "即便品質很好，我們也不認為行政機關有這樣的權力對網路上的言論內容，有絕對的權力去控制品質、價值。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我釐清一下我聽到的：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，你覺得以衛福部的例子，「散布有關於傳染病流行疫情之謠言，或傳播不實之流行疫情消息足以生損害於公眾」的這一個部分，假設未來要運用這一個條款。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你覺得當它運用在你剛剛所講的健保這一件事上時，我聽到的是你覺得這個情況是，你不覺得適用、也不覺得法院最後會這樣子判定嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們有沒有考慮到法院？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有，因為這裡是要移送行為人。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果法院判斷是要移除，我們會按照既定的使用者規則，也就是使用者條款，透過法院的司法互助，我們的法律是美國保障的，我們只要拿到美國法院的命令，我們要移除，那個是按照法院規定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。所以意思是不管主觀判斷如何，只要法院這樣判斷，透過司法互助，這個是可以的？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "按照符合所有條件之下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "這樣很清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。那這樣，尤其是法院終局裁判才會有的權力，所謂「為免危害擴大」在二十四小時之內先行處置，你覺得這個是？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "「危害擴大」也要看違法情況，或者是違法是需要很明確的，我們不要講違法，只要講到違法就是有法院判斷。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來你的意思很清楚。不過以目前的情況，法院二十四小時之內做出判斷，這可能不是常態。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以你覺得沒有別的方法可以達成？假如你是我的話，有什麼想法？假設是為了不要危害擴大。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果有法院命令的話，要移除所花的時間可能不到二十四小時。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "但我剛剛有提到，我們公司所host的內容是受美國法律所保護的，因此個案上究竟實際會是怎麼樣執行，會不會超過二十四小時，我覺得還是不能排除這樣的可能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "瞭解。你們公司也有現有的功能，像使特定區域的人無法接取特定內容，或者是加註警示訊息等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一些按照你們的做法，是運用在不同的事情上。但你覺得這些的強度，都沒有到「行政機關notice，然後你們就做」的程度？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常清楚。看另外兩位有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "我這邊做一個補充，呼應一下Max所講的。從律師的角度看這個條文，這是給政府機關一個權力，什麼樣的權力？只要做兩件事就可以任意把網路上他不喜歡的言論take down，只要做哪兩件事？一個是發訊息給平台服務者、一個是移送給司法機關，後面的附加條件就是要檢察官不起訴處分確定或者是法院判決確定，可是在現實生活裡面要拿到這兩個司法文書，恐怕沒有一年半載，未必拿得到。" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "所以給政府機關有這麼大的權力，我認為有違反憲法之虞，我做通知加一紙公文移送動作，我就可以合法地讓它不被臺灣2,300萬人看到達一、兩年之久，這個是何其可怕的權力，我只能這樣講，這甚至已經逼近合憲性的界限。" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "如果想像成出版一本書，現在大家可以出版書不用被政府允許，大家想，如果說今天政府認為你會出一個內容不正確的書，只要政府通知出版社，並且移送法院，這書就不能出版，這一件事就是恢復到戒嚴時代的出版審查，這個是大家可以接受的事嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我基本上同意我們同業的意見，剛剛Max提到衛福部的案例，我們有一個非常類似的案例分享給各位。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "某一位先生在YouTube上放了他的影片，講衛福部要允許感染愛滋病的人捐血，會造成很大的問題，這一位先生講這一件事非常久了，大家可以自己判斷講的是不是真的，但是衛福部認為這是不實訊息，請我們拿下來，我們內部討論之後，請衛福部依正式的程序，發送移除要求給我們，因為的確我們會檢視該要求是不是符合當地的法令，如果有違反當地法令的話，我們會移除，所以請他們給我這個正式request （正式發文）告訴我們這個影片違反法律之處，但他們後來決定不發正式移除要求。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "如果這一個法條（數位通傳法）照這樣子通過的話，主管機關可以很容易說，這個有不實訊息疑慮，所以請你（業者）拿掉，然後再移送檢察官。我們（業者）會想說還是拿掉，不然後面有賠償罰則，因此主管機關可以很容易請平台拿掉他們認為有疑慮的東西。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "但是回到現實的狀況，就如我剛剛舉的例子，我請他們給我正式的notice，他們覺得這個法並不完全有法律效力請我們移除，因此他們決定不提移除通知。那是因為今天沒有這樣的法律，如果有這樣的法律出現時，我提的例子很有可能援引這個法條就請我24小時移除，而我們就必須要拿掉。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "事實上的狀況是，他們覺得這個法也許不能完全規範這個影片，因此最後選擇不請我們拿掉。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我覺得這個例子，應該可以說明這個法會給主管機關非常大的權力。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "是不是把主管機關的權限往我們不想踩的紅線推，我覺得這個是大家可以思考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第12頁）後面有一條意見，是想給主管機關一些責任，我先投影出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有所抗衡的是，在損害賠償責任這一塊，如果非屬不實、無罪、不起訴、不罰等等的話，是要國賠。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "國賠只是置詞而已，因為國賠是要損害計算，如果一個人沒有辦法說這樣的話，損害是什麼？是一個人的損害或者是整體的損害？如果是非常重要的訊息、是需要每一個人都知道的時候，國賠只會對相對人算出損害的值，然後再去作賠償。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "一個人沒有辦法講話，很難計算出實際的損害。除非有一個懲罰性賠償，去懲罰國家亂來，不然沒有意義。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「懲罰性賠償」的具體意思是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "決策的人要負責，這負責不是國家賠償法裡面簡單的負責。因為國家賠償法是要算實際受的損害，而這個國家賠償的法……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是要直接訂個幾萬到幾萬嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我的意思是這邊寫的「國家賠償責任」是沒有任何意義的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。這邊有一個提議是懲罰性賠償，至於具體怎麼寫，是另外一回事。" }, { "speaker": "黃政傑", "speech": "國賠大家都知道付錢的是納稅人，並沒有為行使權力者來創造一個不濫用權力的壓力，因為錢不是他付的，並沒有辦法達到一個反制作用的地步。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。一般來說，在移送、給notice的時候，像這個notice本身就要公布，這個是可問責性。看有沒有什麼相關的想法？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第14頁）也就是說，衛福部今天提了幾個給幾家、內容是這樣子，要可受公評，這是一個可能性。這個在透明報告裡面是有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第15頁）當然可以到「原因等各項指標分類」再來詳細討論，不過可以看到，是有一定程度的課責機制。不能只是移送加通知，對外卻說沒有這一件事，這裡面有當責的成分在。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但確實就像大家所說的，不管是國賠也好，也是納稅人的錢。就算透明報告出來、大家覺得有任意使用，好像也是整個機關的名譽受損，並不是判斷者個人的名譽等等，這個我理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "所以我們不覺得這個是有效的嚇阻機制，國家濫權唯一的嚇阻機制是司法制裁及憲法保障，現在的法律規定其實是創造了一個……我不知道有沒有改，但是之前看到的是創造10天的空間，政府可以任意控制網路言論的擴散。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡講的是「10天之內移送」？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果今天政府不移送呢？我作為一個平台業者，怎麼會知道政府會做這一件事（移送）？如果執政黨為了要選舉勝利，在選舉前八天移除所有的內容，當然這個是很極端的，我們會說政治人物不會做這一件事或者是會有道德操守，但是我們用這樣的法律來創造這樣的空間，而這個空間是沒有可以究責機制的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那你覺得怎麼樣公平？24小時內移送嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "不是，我覺得政府不應該有這個權力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我有聽到。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "第二，假設要時間的話，政府要移除的話，像FB一直在推第三方事實查核、或者是法律、法院的判斷。我們收到通知若是法院的通知，大概就不會有這樣的疑慮。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "不知道現在《數位通訊傳播法》的網路治理原則有沒有調整？不然按照原來的草案，應該是包括政府應避免直接以行政管制手段介入管理，這個是寫在裡面的。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "我們現在又把一個價值體系完全不一樣的東西放在這裡面，這個立法的總說明文字是直接當成具文，或者是有什麼樣的調整？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "如果覺得法國、德國很好，法國可以做到讓法院來判斷，那我們怎麼又自己放棄，反而改讓行政機關可以自己決定，如果我們覺得法國是可以援用的案子，那不是應該就比照法國嗎？有什麼道理將法官保留原則取消而改由行政機關就能決定呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好，聽起來有兩個意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，確實本來的《數位通傳法》草案，裡面完全沒有行政裁罰的原因，是因為這是一部純粹的橋接法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我聽起來，你是覺得如果要放這個進去的話，整個立法理由，要對為什麼這邊多了一段行政法的東西給交代。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是這樣的話，立法理由應該要進行調整，不然難以自圓其說？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "不是要自圓其說，而是根本不該要有行政權來干預，要回到原本的立法原則。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我覺得現在基本上加了很多其他的東西，然後回到剛剛所講的，當初立法原則是避免行政權介入，現在丟出這麼多新的東西超過立法原則，為何不願意給足夠的時間來做充分的溝通呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這點我們有記下來。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們一再強調，這個是我們的主旋律。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "……我完全理解。隨時都要回到主旋律。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先回到這裡。這樣聽起來，剛才的意思是：首先對於十天的通知，但是最後可以不移送，這個是有疑慮的，尤其是接近選舉的時候。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，對於行政權事實上下了判斷，而不需要等到法院終局，就取得效果的這件事，還是希望讓司法做出判斷，聽起來是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於適用範圍這一些部分，剛剛各位對於《選罷法》、《傳染病防治法》主管機關具體判斷的一些經驗，都有分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有其他要分享的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "大家好，我是羅政委辦公室，今天來的目的，其實也想要知道各位可以接受到的範圍到哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "像剛剛有提到「加註警示標註」的建議，聽起來大家很在意的是，是不是讓主管機關通知就可以移除，大家很在意。" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "如果讓一切資訊可以透明，請平台做的事是加註警示標語，也就是主管機關有一個澄清，讓接收到的人可以知道這個東西是主管機關有澄清過，想要知道大家如果真的在意這個地方，不要完全被刪除的話，到什麼樣的程度可以接受？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像加拿大的著作權法，只要notice行為人說「現在有人要告你」，這是不是大家可以接受的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然加註警示訊息比較是public notice，不只行為人，接取到的人也要有notice，這是剛才羅政委辦公室朋友們提到的模式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看各位覺得，如果take down要司法機關才能做，那行政機關有沒有可能做一些notice？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "現在是要把行政院做的澄清放到我們這邊來嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有點像是「自動上架機制」。" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "再連過去。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "所以，行政院在澄清上是覺得有遇到困難嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "關於澄清是否能觸及到當初分享訊息的朋友，我想可以大方承認：在有第一波訊息散布的時候，第二波透過澄清，目前確實碰不到散布的每一個人。實際上的情況是這樣子沒錯。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "可能要請法務表示意見，事實上這個是改變我們的產品。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我不知道所謂「警示訊息」要做到多少？是要把行政院澄清稿連結上去，或者是只要有任何人覺得你個是有問題的不實資訊就要放警示？也就是警示訊息定義是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "第二個是產品改變，我不知道能不能做到這個，我們要跟相關的團隊討論。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "……究竟我們的警示訊息是，你需要我們做多大的警示說這個是假的，然後是政府說的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在我的想像裡，是依什麼法、有這樣子的通知，然後點一下就看得到那個通知。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少我當初聽到這個提議的時候，腦裡浮起的是這個，當然每一個人浮現的場景，可能是不一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "這個部分我覺得根據警示訊息要呈現什麼文字？呈現到多少？然後要連到哪裡去，我們還得要討論才知道可行性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家對於著作權有類似的東西了，但是具體format長什麼樣子，用手機看、桌機看，是不同的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在先從哲學上，探討這一件事是不是可以接受的？如果完全不做任何take down，就剩notice and public notice？" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我們覺得很難在這邊回答。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果有60天，那可以（在那段時間）討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以先考慮一下。未來很可能會回到這個點上，所以會希望大家先想一想這個部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果不是放在《通傳法》草案裡，在別的地方，大概也會有朋友提出類似的見解。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "大家可以想一下Taiwan FactCheck Center，臺灣事實查核中心，國外有很多，臺灣目前只有一個事實查核中心，其實跟業者都有在討論如何合作，有一個想法是他們的努力如何讓更多人看到？因為查核中心成立才五個月。" }, { "speaker": "詹婷怡", "speech": "7月成立到現在。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上各位提的這個案子，他們有處理過，也就是第34號查核。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我們大家都想跟他們合作，反過來是他們有多少capacity，把我們所有想做的事通通做出來？因為我們的確跟他們討論過，我相信我們同業也是，但我最近給他們的一個想法是，因為要達成他們的任務，人力跟資金是很重要的事，所以建議他們考慮向我們的公益基金會提出funding proposal，但是他們有提到準備proposal及執行會花很多人力，因此要思考是不是可以做得到。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我們很希望跟他們合作，我們也希望事實查核中心的事實查核報告，是不是可以取代或者是警示的idea？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在你們的新聞產品裡面，事實上也有剛剛所講notice的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "但是我有初步瞭解，他們那一端要做IT調整，加上Claim Review。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是，如果現在第三方查核機構有提出調查報告，那就都不反對public notice。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是說，由第三方查核機構提出，比行政院提出要好，意思是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "哲學上是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們覺得第三方查核機構比較有角色。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我個人覺得，當初這一位先生（有關衛福部要感染愛滋病的人輸血）講的有很多謬誤，但是大家可以想像在他的YouTube底下，我們寫「行政院……」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「……衛福部依《傳染病防治法》第63條……」" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我想他會很不高興。而且根據事實查核中心報告，他的言論並不是全部都錯。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "雖然我覺得那個先生講的並不是完全正確，但是這對他也有不公平之處。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "因此如果是一個事實查核中心，我們用Claim Review，讓看的人可以同時也看到有一個公正第三方的事實查核中心，他們如何看待這樣的新聞，我覺得這樣可能對大家都比較平衡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。所以同樣的版面、版位及文字，你覺得第三方查核機構的報告比較容易接受，而檢舉加移送，比較不容易接受。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們沒有辦法接受行政部門在網路言論上有任何的角色，也就是評價、判斷的角色。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "第二，這可能變成實際上的運用，我們這邊的做法是，第三方事實查核機構合作，他們來做一些內容的查核，去看這個內容是有多假。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們注意到的是，如果標示為這個是假的，點閱率會提高很高。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那當然。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "這個是經驗，究竟notice and notice是不是政府想要達到的目標？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果像這一種要立法，基本上你們會達到反效果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我有聽到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在確實是援用國際的立法例。在假訊息的議題上，援用私權的方式來處理，是正效果或者是反效果，我想大家當然可以提出疑慮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於「加註警示訊息」，只要有時間討論，各位表示願意討論，並不是完全反對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果是加註訊息，這兩位的偏好，也是讓第三方事實查核機制先行、給予他們比較優先的存取權，對不對？聽起來是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "LINE有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "與另兩家立場相同，即便是加註訊息也應該是由第三方機構先行查核，而非行政機關決定。至於加註訊息在LINE實務上作法是否可行，須帶回研議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看部會或者羅政委辦公室同仁，有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "我們辦公室在研究這個議題中有學習，有很多問題想要問各位，大家一直很強調真偽的判斷跟言論判斷的這一件事，大家都很在意。" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "我們滿想請教的，是大家在德國的經驗。其實違法言論包含誹謗、侮辱，我們也覺得滿有模糊界限的類型，真偽有一些好判斷、有一些不好判斷，其他的違法類型是好或不好判斷，我們真的要踩這麼死，認為事實的東西是完全無法做嗎？" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "像耳麥事件，當天播出就知道有沒有耳麥。比起要看一個言論有沒有侮辱一個人，這個真的有難以判斷嗎？這個是想要請教各位。" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "如果大家在德國或者是法國有經驗的話，也可以提出。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我聽起來，這是兩個不同的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個是，有一些很明顯是事實確認的部分，這些部分我理解，大家覺得還是希望通過國際事實查核中心網絡的朋友，他們一接到、做出查核報告之後，就可以很快接上各位的演算法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上，我們也理解，德國是要求各位平台來做內容類型的判斷。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "羅政委在記者會上有提到，德國並不是好的例子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，你們的具體經驗是？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "應該來講，德國的做法是只能按照法律規定來傷害言論自由。我們很遺憾，但是必須要回來講，德國跟臺灣是有很大的差別，臺灣有1,500萬人每天都在使用FB，德國的人口比例少很多，如果真的要算出來一個言論被刪除之後所造成的影響多大的話，臺灣的效應是遠大於德國。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是以對社會整體影響的比例來計算？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "對。所以我們認為德國並不是毫無爭議的辦法。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "第二，臺灣至少在臉書上，沒有辦法引用德國的法例，因為整個的社會情境不太一樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我可以分享一下，我們在法案通過，我們必須要有transparency report，所以我們在2018年第一個前半年，我可以再給您資料，有一些分享。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我們在2018年前半年總共收到21萬3,330個檢舉案，平均大概一天有1,185件，根據我們內部提供的資料，73％是我們無法採取任何行為，因為他們既沒有違法社群守則、也沒有違反當地的法令；剩下的27％當中有2/3會根據社群守則，像hate speech或者兒童不宜的影片等等來移除；另外1/3是當地法令的關係。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "這個是網路上公開的報告，我想讓各位知道我們收到這麼多，但是裡面其實有很大一部分是無效的檢舉，因此是不是到達了NetzDG立法要達到的目的，這個是很大的問號，然而這個是他們國家的法令，我們就得做，但是是不是就真的到達要做的事，我覺得從上半年的資訊可以看到一些端倪。" }, { "speaker": "蔡惟安", "speech": "我們之前有看過transparency report。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣ok嗎？看其他的朋友有沒有要補充或者是詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，其他的部分……還是都看一次好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第5頁）剛才有提到各種適用，這一些當然剛才有提出一些見解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第6頁）這邊想要提醒大家的是，在第9點有一個修正的想法，羅政委辦公室的朋友剛才有提到，也有朋友說其他法律規定之不實資訊犯罪，這邊特別講的是公訴罪，因為傷害的法益是公共利益，但違法訊息也不只是不實訊息，也有一些是真實訊息，但還是違法的。經常被提出來的，像兒少性剝削、販賣違禁品之類的，大家都很熟悉了，我就不一一列舉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有朋友提到，想要把不實資訊犯罪改成「散布違法訊息」，涵攝範圍就大很多，因為包含真實訊息的部分，這個也是大家希望有空可以想一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個是《社會秩序維護法》。這個也是今天剛收到的，是剛剛出現的提議，大家在媒體上已經有看到了，內政部有修正的想法，想把本來那一個非常不明確的東西，把它明確化，讓它符合所謂「故意、虛假、危害」的三要素。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有朋友問到，這個有沒有可能接進來？如果這樣，就會變成這九個裡面唯一不是犯罪，而是行政罰鍰……這也是想聽大家意見的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也有另外一些朋友提出的想法，就是以上這一些情況，如果是「基於秘密通訊的目的，對特定人發送非供他人存取之資訊者，不適用之」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這有一點像私權模式第1款，但是比第1款稍微嚴一些。私權模式第1款是沒有更改訊息就免責，但這個是要基於秘密通訊之目的，等於是一定程度上去把「散布」界定一下：要對不特定人；或者是對特定人，但是未來不特定其他人還是看得到；或者一開始送的時候就沒有秘密通訊的目的。這一些才有可能是散布。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個的情況下，不管前面怎麼寫，都不會認為是散布。這也是一個具體有收到的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以對於這幾個，看大家有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "是不是回到剛剛那一張？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有問題。（簡報第4頁）" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們反對任何行政機關在判斷言論價值中有任何角色，所以依照那樣的基礎，我們反對這邊提到的「散布不實資訊」變成「散布違法資訊」，更反對《社維法》也被納入，再重複一次，我們反對行政機關在內容價值判斷有任何角色。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，所以越擴大越反對，這個我有聽懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有其他比較具體的想法？好比像文字或者是構成要件？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果本質上就反對，我們也是今天才看到「散布違法資訊」這個建議……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實，我們也是今天剛收到這個建議。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "……我們很難對文字做任何的建議，因為我們就是反對這樣的內容，所以這個會議紀錄要寫得很清楚，我們不樂見行政機關用這樣的法律來擴張自己不應該有的權力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有問題，事實上今天有做逐字稿，並不是只有會議紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除此之外，有沒有針對明確性有意見？或者是覺得已經很明確了？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "第3個是修正的部分嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "請問第三項的「非供他人存取之資訊」是什麼意思？比如私人間的訊息也是供他人存取。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想，意思是除了那一些「特定人」之外的他人。我對特定人發送、我預期特定人接受，那意思是除了這一些特定人之外。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果對這個文字有想法的話，都可以提出來，這些只是很初步的意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對特定人發送，舉一個例子來講，google groups有68個成員，但是第69個加入的話，也還是可以看到前面的訊息，這個可以預期第69個人加入還是看得到以前的每一封信，這個時候就不能說非供他人存取，因為可以預期會有新的人回來看archive。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果一開始一封一封cc給68個人，那大概就是對特定人發送只對特定人看的資訊。這有點像是有留web archive的郵件群組、和一般email loop的差別。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "主要想要問各位，是否有不清楚的地方？不同想法可以隨時提出，但至少這個字在大家腦裡是同樣的意思，這個要先達到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看大家覺得？如果意思滿清楚，我們就往下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第7頁）這幾乎跟私權模式沒有太大的差別，應該就還好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第8頁）剛才我們有聽到對十個工作天，覺得可能會有「只通知，而不移送」的用法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "除此之外有沒有其他想要提出的？不管實質上或者是措詞上？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第9頁）如果沒有提出證明，也就是過了十天，或者是犯罪嫌疑不足、無罪不罰之類的，那就要回復。如果技術上不能回復，要提供適當方式回復。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外這邊有提到，第1項的中央主管機關不一定要自己做，可以委任、委託或委辦去做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們沒有講話，並不代表都同意。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果要講的話，是這樣子：（嘆氣）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們現在講一些文字的細節，如果我們的立場已經很清楚，我們對任何行政機關擴權的可能，基本上都是反對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好的，我們就留下這個紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過大概剩兩頁，不會再讓大家花太多時間。這個是我們收到關於行政裁罰的意見，還是希望大家稍微看一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第10頁）這邊是「200萬以上、5,000萬以下罰鍰」、「上一會計年度申報銷售金額10％以下罰鍰」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前有收到另一個意見，是也許不是對所有平台，而是「達一定規模以上，經通訊傳播主管機關指定之提供者」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實平台相關的就到這邊。剩下的就是國賠、透明報告這些，剛剛已經看過了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此我們就停在這一頁，請大家盡量分享意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來和平台相關的意見，只有國賠跟透明報告，剛剛有投影過了。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "滿反對的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "反對並不是因為會對我們裁罰，而是今天這樣的設計是給行政機關權力，然後他的責任不是所謂國家賠償，國家賠償真的算出來，可以賠到5萬元嗎？對一個人的言論侵害時，國家的損害要如何計算？但對平台，是在這個地方罰到200萬元以上、5,000萬以下，甚至是上一年度申報銷售金額10％以下的罰鍰，這是一個合理的比例？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那你覺得，怎麼修改會比較好？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果今天國家因為濫用這樣的權力，假設真的有這樣的權力，雖然我是覺得這個非常不好，如果今天國家就是給了行政機關有這樣的權力，應該就有相對的責任，當然這個責任就是侵害言論的責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "具體來講？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "如果要的話，當然是開玩笑的，就罰國家或行政機關亂來的人是200到5,000萬。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是一個對賭的概念？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "不希望這樣講，從業者來看，我們一定是要對股東負責，並不會把這個東西拿來跟國家對賭，今天是用這樣的結構來要求業者一定要順服。第二，並沒有人節制行政機關的權力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一頁主要的意見是國賠，跟透明度報告可受公評。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "但是並沒有任何的效果，我很直白地說。我之前在政府機關服務過，我不覺得這個有任何嚇阻的效果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "意思是說嚇阻主管機關的效果？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "對，嚇阻行政機關奉更大長官的指示去做這樣的處分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有什麼想法？不一定要針對這一頁。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "最後一段是《公平法》這邊來的，例如重大聯合行為的裁罰可以到十億或百億元以上。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "原則上是商業會計年度都是境外事業的話，都是全球的營收，所以公平法的聯合行為是做了一個惡性重大的事才罰到這個程度。" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "如果只是因為業者不配合政府做這一件事就會罰到這麼大的程度，我覺得輕重失衡。畢竟，業者並不是實際從事違散布不實訊息的行為人，而是沒有配合主管機關的要求，甚至這個要求可能在當下並無法證明一定是對的要求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實。不過，這個提議是說要「經判決確定」？" }, { "speaker": "簡維克", "speech": "上一商業會計年度罰鍰實在過重，尤其對於本身並沒有從事不法行為的業者來講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你覺得可接受的範圍是？或是把「重大情節者」拿掉？" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "並不是這個條文哪一個可以接受、哪一個不接受。我們的原則很清楚，我們不接受行政機關做這個（言論審查）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這我完全理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "我們一直講說多少可以接受，好像我們在開價，但我們沒有要做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好的。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "整個結構是有問題的，我們並不認為是好的結構。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "因此究竟200萬或者是20萬或者是50萬，這是沒有意義的討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "OK。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "所以我們還是堅持要看文字版本，我們有足夠的時間來作內部分析，才有辦法做實質文字上的建議與討論。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "剛剛都是我們在看到當下，一個小時四十分之內初步的想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳奕儒", "speech": "這很難講是我們公司最後的立場，這是逼著我們跟你說……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "……並沒有這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我這邊要做的，全部只有兩件事：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，就是確定大家看到同樣的文字是相同的想像。以上的討論，大部分都是在做釐清。並不是大家不講話就是同意的意思，完全沒有這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，剛剛這邊提到，大家講的都是初步、代表自己的意思，很難代表整個公司，這個我也理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我一開始就有說明：對於公開徵詢的程序意見，我會反應給羅政委知道，各位的基本想法，是要從正式提供文字時，再開始計算大家具體可以給意見的時間。" }, { "speaker": "陳幼臻", "speech": "我覺得政委講的這兩點是最主要的意見表達，謝謝您花這個時間跟我們溝通，但是您剛剛講的那兩點其實是最重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第11頁）我們把目前為止的的各界意見，都投影一次……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第13頁）使用者故意不實通知，因而致危害擴大時，有朋友提到希望能加重責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第14頁）這剛才看過了，達一定規模以上的，要出透明度報告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第15頁）基本上是標準的那些項目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第16頁）以及讓使用者知道，自己目前是從哪個國家或地域接取之方式。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "達一定規模以上，如果沒有報告，或者是報告虛偽不實，20萬到200萬；規模認定標準，由通訊傳播主管機關定之。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第17頁）後面是對行為人懲罰性賠償的建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "（簡報第18頁）這是建議對明知為不實而散布，要加重責任。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後這兩點意見，都是對於行為人，不是對於平台。剛才投影過去，只是讓大家知道除了對於平台之外，還有對於行為人的一些意見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這些是供大家參考，跟平台沒有太大關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們今天的工作範圍就是這樣子。看大家還有沒有什麼想要留下逐字紀錄的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "本來預定是開到晚上9點，如果大家沒有其他的意見，就提早15分鐘結束。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛講的這兩點，我今晚就跟羅政委說明。今天謝謝大家的參與。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Joe上個月去印度GSG的年會。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們本來要去，後來沒有去的？" }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "對，他是唯一臺灣的代表。因此他有一些資訊要對，第二個是我們的聚會，可能會請Joe，因為他是GSG的顧問，所以也請他帶一下整個大pictures。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "至少讓大家知道在global context這邊是要做什麼的。" }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "還有就是multi-stakeholder的approach跟collaboration這一些，我覺得Joe很有經驗。我們大概也邀了二、三十位主要的，按照ecosystem分類的，都會來下週12/19在社創中心舉行的「台灣GSG影響力投資諮詢委員會 Taiwan NAB」籌備暖身小聚#1。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "太棒了。" }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Joe，交給你了。" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "我稍微自我介紹一下，我9月有去聯合國。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "對，我們身上這個SDGs徽章，只有聯合國才有（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "我過去做很多是用系統思考、系統變革的方式，把多方利害關係人放在一起，讓大家可以collect action，也有做聯合國顧問，像SDG的mapping。" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "這一次也有幫GSG，他們想說用systems mapping的方式，把整個impact investment ecosystem，可以用causal loop的方式map起來，將來可以用這個方式來coordinate collective action，我們已經做了第一版，也有一個report，今年在India就已經有發表。" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "現在在想有更多實際可操作的，就是可以在這個map 讓所有人知道在自己哪一個位置上，可以共同創造一個ecosystem for impact investment，這是一個on going跟他們的連結，我想說可以幫臺灣建立我們自己的map、多方利益關係人，用這個來engage多方利益關係人的systemic approach。" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "所以很重要的是要建立一個network，而這個network，在founding的時候，怎麼建立network leaders so we have a similar language，我個人的想法是，既然我有做這個mapping，how can we also bring it here in Taiwan，我們有自己的map，用這個map來做collective action的策略。" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "這一次我們籌備會議……" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "……我想問一個程序問題，你在想這一些事的時候，是用英語想還是用華語想？" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "以前是用英語比較多，現在華語好一點。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我們可以從頭到尾用英語講，如果這個讓你的工作容易一點的話。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "我自己揭露一下，我想這一些是用英語想的。如果我們分別在腦裡翻譯華語，中間已經不知道掉了多少百分比了。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "所以我想切換一下語言，如果你可以的話（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let me just very quickly recap what I’ve heard. You already worked on facilitating the GSG report that’s published in India. You’re the main facilitator for that?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "For, yeah, creating the map with them." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s great. Then the 2.0, so to speak, is going to be launched when?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "We don’t know yet. This is in the process." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s just an idea?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "They have interest in making it more expanded. We’re talking about it, and I want to find a prototype site. We’re interested in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea is that in Taiwan, we prototype this more action-oriented, more detailed way of conversation among the stakeholders?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we create a kind of model, because it is going to be a microcosm of what we want other regions to happen?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Totally." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see the system action. The next question is that, what’s going to be the, from your viewpoint, one year from now, the output of this multistakeholder process? As you well know, to bootstrap something, you probably need a common excuse for people to put their time together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Given the social atmosphere here, we have some important timelines. For example, the National Social Innovation Action Plan, which is a four-year plan. It targets the next four years. It’s up to 2022. Up to 2022, there is a national strategy for social innovation that you can leverage to bring the 12 ministries together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We already did some mapping. It’s all public information. I can send it to you, anyway. The timeline is going to coincide, I think, very well with the map. The plan itself, as you can see, is a continuation of a previous four-year plan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We focus, at this point, around various different organizational types. For example, co-ops were not featured prominently when Minister Feng-Yun was in charge of the previous four-year plan. Now, they are now given equal footing, especially 合作社型態, the co-ops, along with the NPOs and companies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, when we’re talking about impact investment, we understand, of course, only company can take investment. The hybrid organizations is where we’re now working on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As of November, all the NPOs, whether they’re associations or foundations, they can now set up closely held subsidiary companies to receive investment for their for-profit version, the part of their previously nonprofit work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The idea of with-profit is now gaining momentum, because the legal structure now allows it to happen. What I mean concretely is that previously, there was no common index of the work that each ministry is doing on their own." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, we’re committed to use the 17 SDG areas, and the 169 targets, which is why we wear it on our t-shirt all the time, to make sure that people index. For example, you can see the university social responsibility, and here, you see the more traditional incubator stuff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Here, you see, for example, the co-ops, associations, and so on. Now, because they now all report to the same sustainable goals, there is much more synergy within the ministries that we’re now seeing across the ministries to form a pipeline." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the four-year plan, and I’ll be leading it, at least for the next year or so, [laughs] but we’ll see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just saying that the index of the SDGs is really the main difference now, compared to the previous impact investment, which is more MDCN, MOEA-led. Now, it is all the ministries see that, \"Oh, it is something that we can leverage as resources.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the picture from the government side. The question I want to ask is because we want to, in the national strategy itself, to basically leverage all the research, academia, and the PWC and KPMG’s contributions on what does social benefit actually mean?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What does social impact actually mean? That is the burning question. It is going to lead the next three years of the national action plan. We’re going to spend a year on getting the picture of what do we mean when we say social impact in a meaningful way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the GSG multistakeholder partner can help tackling this, which you probably have to, anyway, if you’re going to do any kind of impact investment, then that could be a really compelling for the ministries to participate, because they’re charged with the same task..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As you can see, people here, each ministry are charged with different part of the national strategy. All of them are charged with the assessment of social benefit, or environmental benefit, but impact. That’s just the background for you." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "This is a national plan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, for four years." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "For four years. Then you’re saying in the coming year, you’ll be focusing on developing the social impact measurement from each ministry?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "That each ministry will take a certain..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Role." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "...role, according to SDG." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. For example, the Ministry of Education, they will work on the university social responsibility. The coming February, they will re-index all the USR projects, using the sustainable goals." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The same for CSR and so on. Using the same language, we can discover synergies, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Got it. Just a quick question. I am aware that Taiwan also have the National Council for Sustainable Development." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, that’s about things the government itself does. This is about things that are done in the social and private sector. Our main modus operandi here is just not to lead the citizens, but rather let the social innovators take lead." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We don’t block the way, or we amplify the progress. We supply supplements, but we’d never take direct control. The annual social enterprise summit, for example, we are committed to do sponsorship up to 49 percent." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The local people, the Children Are Us Foundation and Impact Hub Taipei, Social Entreprise Insights, and B Lab Taipei, they drive the agenda. We never control the agenda. That’s the plan here. The NCSD, by contrast, mostly what the government are committed to do." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main difference." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Got it. I’m also curious, is this mapping mostly mapping the issue, what are the issues in Taiwan in education, and trying to match the development plan to address those issues?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s very fair to say. What we’re doing here is essentially getting the idea of sustainability across, especially to the new curriculum that’s taking effect next September. Then, once people discover the local issues, then it gets indexed and surfaced." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we do a lot of matchmaking to encourage people to solve and tackle those issues. People who do solve those issues, if they’re integrated into the supply chain, for example, of either larger corporations or enterprises, then we give out awards and so on to encourage them to build the ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main idea. It’s fair to say that the social and environmental issues are the main output of the discovery process." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see, interesting. I’m hoping there is some kind of synergy, because this work is about mapping the issue, very systemic challenges facing in Taiwan. Then you’re matching those with various civic society..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Co-ops, and whatever." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "...and social enterprise who have solutions to address those issues. You’re matching that. I think what we are trying to do is then going another layer, which is the financial capital..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Social financing." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Social financing, how they can finance various social enterprise to address those issues. That’s the..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that previously the associations and NPOs, they think they are disconnected with impact investment, because by structure, they cannot take investment. Now, through this subsidiary corporation formulation, they can now legally take investment by setting up a subsidizing subsidiary, a closely held company." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, they are part of the recipients of impact investment, potentially. They don’t have to do a transformation of their structure. That was what Professor [sp] Feng-Yun was worried about. She was worried about that the NPOs will be lured to give up their original structure, because there are still parts that require charity structure to help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, by saying, we’re not convincing them to become a company. We’re convincing them to set up subsidiary companies that can receive investment." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I think..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Feel free to go back to your context." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "That’s wonderful as a background. You asked about what the one-year outcome is together. What I’m envisioning is Taiwan’s national plan for impact investment. I think that’s what NAB is tasked to do, is to develop our national strategy for how we’re going to build an ecosystem for impact investment." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "It’s a plan. It’s both a strategy, but also, I think they will be down to this action plan. If we just follow from GSG’s mandate, the goal is this national plan will specify how we will help reach the tipping point end of 2020." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I would envision, we want to create a draft plan, and then ideally, we are ready to apply the membership with the GSG, right?" }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Correct." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is something that I refer to when I think about social financing. This is the social financing strategy of Canada. They are put together by a clearly multistakeholder process. What I like about it is that it is interwoven between the policy and regulatory environment, which are their demands to the government." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then also, concrete cases that’s already working, which is a showcasing of local government. In a sense, it is basically municipalities figuring out smaller, quicker wins by using this strategy to surface the structure behind it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Taipei SE Square would be a very good example. Telling the other municipalities and other people in the country, if you do it this way, then social financing can actually work. They put a lot of emphasis on social innovation data, and evidence and knowledge sharing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Some structure like this is what I have in mind, but it may not be what you have in mind. I just want to collaborate a little bit of our expectations." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I haven’t really put too much thought into what that structure would look like. I think part of it will be co-created with the group." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We can look at the outline, which has the main structure, that is more or less what this is about." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Yeah, probably..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How’s it like, and what we would like to see." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Yeah, probably something similar. I would envision the map, that we’ve been talking about that. Systems map was somewhere in here. They help guide. All this are different parts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "It would be good to have a shared picture of how all are interconnected." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "How they integrate into each other. I think that would be great." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Are these happen soon, or for Taiwan?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is already..." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Taiwan’s social financing strategy?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, the thing is that their strategy is both SI and SF, but we only have an SI plan. At the moment, there is no national social financing plan. In Canada, they did it together in the co-creation. That is also because in Canada, if you look at the people who actually participated in the co-creation process, it’s really across the board." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All these groups, they basically, maybe they didn’t have anything to do with social innovation to begin with. Maybe they were just financiers, or people who work in investment. Because of the social financing banner, they get attracted, and become a stakeholder." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When we did the consultation -- by we, I mean both [sp] Feng-Yun and me -- did a consultation, we put more highlight on the entrepreneurship part, which attracted different kind of stakeholders. I’m not saying it’s bad, but it doesn’t naturally attract investors." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think the approach makes, currently, there is a tangible void in the social financing strategy, if you look at our official documents, which is something Ray is working very hard to remedy." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Maybe I think as GSG preparation office, we can draft a similar, very..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m not saying the wording. I’m just saying the stakeholder composition determines the scope. Obviously, from this stakeholder composition, they are going to embed social financing with municipalities, with social innovation. When we did a social innovation plan, our stakeholder group is not like this." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see. We already have a...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We had a consultation, a year-long consultation between the two plans. It used to be called the Social Enterprise National Strategy. Then I become the minister in charge for it two months, and then the strategy ends." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It used to be a four-year plan. Then after the two months, there’s a year of public consultation, where I just tour around Taiwan and talk to stakeholders. It’s all on public record. After one year of consultation, the four-year plan gets ratified." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I didn’t in my regional tours, because of the thematic thing is still on social entrepreneurship. We didn’t attract as much established investors in our consultation meetings. Therefore, the action plan did not actually put too much emphasis on social financing. That’s the thing. I’m seeing the need to remedy that." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "This, what we’re trying to do, could potentially help." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. Also, in the first year of the social innovation plan, we’re charged to do social impact assessment, anyway. That is a natural segue into social financing." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see, OK. Your timeline, you say that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The four-year starts counting January next year, like in a few weeks." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "In a few weeks." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In a few weeks. That’s the official starting point of the new four-year plan." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "The plan’s already been drafted?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s already ratified. It’s ratified." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Not just..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re technically already running for a few months, but without budget." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All the new budget have to come, starting January. There will be dedicated budget to maintain this place, to do, as you said, the issue mapping, the matchmaking, and whatever. That budget comes next January, which is a few weeks from now." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Then how do we envision this work, as we go through this process, picking to convene the finance stakeholder, and developing the national plan, this plan? I’m just thinking about how might we connect..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Proceed. The main research work, I think, is going to be done by MOEA for most of the issue mapping work. The MOEA, of course, has many other friends. The KPMG and TIER have been staples in holding the structure of, for example, a census of social innovation and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think there’s a stakeholder map that I can send you later about the new funding that will enable a collaboration between quite a few groups that are already doing mapping work. Not necessarily around social financing, but around social impact and social issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe the first step is just to get people to know each other. I think that’s the main thing." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I think, from our side, what we are planning is, we will have this initial meeting. We will see who is interested in coming to the core team, the core group. The goal is to co-develop a national plan for impact investment using the systems mapping approach to engage and convene the stakeholders." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Once we have the list of stakeholders, we will probably need to have a process of beginning to, through interview or through some kind of mapping, to map out the national strategy. I can envision sometime down the road, we will have a stakeholder workshop, using the map as a tool to convene the stakeholders to identify the leverage points." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "That will be the input for our national strategy for the impact investment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The timeline is like, we kick off now, but within, I don’t know, a quarter or so, we get a rough idea of how things should look like in the end. Then for another quarter or two, we do systematic interviews, research work, and things like that, and more consultations." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe leaving Q4 for a more, like if you were doing design thinking, a more converging, \"how may we...\" question. It would probably have to end there, because the implementation is up for, of course, everybody to do their part. We only do the first diamond, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Yes, that’s this. This is a larger planning process. My understanding also on Ray is that there will already be some project going on concurrently, like the SIBB, Social Impact Bond and Barriers." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the sandbox people is working with you on identifying possibilities. I would say the SIB is also not yet in this phase. It’s still in the forming phase. It’s still formative." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Initiatives. We can keep going." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "For this process, as we convene stakeholders and co-create our national plan for impact investing, we will be prepared to apply for..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the GSG, right. How does GSG participate or not during this process? Are you completely on your own?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I think they will offer some kind of guidance in the preparatory phase. Either some kind of template documents we could follow, some kind of advice along the way. This is where, because I have a connection with them on this previous project." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I would like to continue to use that, while mapping that more generic map, but then can apply in that context." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is already there, and it’s a part of a larger map?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "OK, that’s good." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Actually, I’m just, there’s a practical issue. For this, some kind of convenient process. I don’t know what Ray thinking about. In the future, we might need to set up some kind of board, some kind of committee, some kind of..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Some kind of folks who co-own this thing." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "I think the purpose of next Wednesday’s gathering is to get people who are interested in, right? [xx] courting to do this, where we all meet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very much so." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "We have some initiatives. Of course, I think the mapping will be the first thing, the high level mapping. We can do that with many smaller group, many 7, 10 people, next round, next meeting. After Wednesday’s, next Wednesday’s." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that works for me." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "Basically, collect all the stakeholders who are highly interested in this, so we can start up something together." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I’m curious, when this gets developed in the future, I don’t know about the plan here. If there is some sort of budget, funding, are there some resource available for supporting this type of work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, that’s exactly as I said. We had allocated funding for the systemic mapping of social issues, and the ways that we can apply civic technologies to solve these issues. It’s not a huge amount of funding, but it’s not trivial, either." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s already being formulated, and it’s already being carried out, actually, as we spoke about the MOEA-related folks, which is why it’s important to get to know these folks. They’re charged with delivery, but if you can accelerate their delivery, then you become natural partners." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see, got it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think that’s the main research funding for the government for the next year, because we do have a specific target, too, that everybody know what social impact measurement actually means across ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "SIB, of course, is part of it. Whatever methodology you bring about, as long as it ties into the goal, I’m sure that they will welcome it." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "I have already invited KPMG, but TIER, who I should invite?" }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "I will invite the key person to come next Wednesday." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Have you invited anyone from the MOEA SMEA, like senior executive officer Linda Huang?" }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "I’ve invited Linda." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good. Linda virtually coordinates the entire team." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "She’s the boss." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "She’s the boss. If you are just talking about strategy, then just talk to her. Linda is in charge of the carrying out of the strategy." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If Sheau-Tyng has time, then of course, Sheau-Tyng can be around as well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Beginning in 2019, ST will become my executive secretary, so her presence is my presence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Everybody knows that when ST put things on my calendar, I will be there. Things that I put on my own calendar, I might not be there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m just a walking spokesperson for my executive secretaries." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Nice, OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the basic shape. The GSG, you will be in constant touch with the GSG in each milestones. The methodologies they provide, it will be equally accessible by people in the stakeholder group." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "In the stakeholder group." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the only thing I need to know." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "I see, yeah. I guess that’s... Then after that, we will apply, and then we will find out. Oh, there will be a complication, also, we know because of the Taiwan-China issues and all that. Although we just prepare as much as we can, if on the inevitable day..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Surely, the PRC is not joining next year?" }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "No." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s less of an issue then." }, { "speaker": "Ray Chen", "speech": "They have their issues." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For all practicalities, like when I visited Open Government Partnership, which is some structure very much like the GSG -- it’s a hybrid government, civil sector, multistakeholder thing -- I gave keynote in the Paris Open Government Partnership Summit with the title of Taiwn’s Digital Minister, but with Taiwan classified as a nonprofit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So there is a nonprofit called Taiwan, and I’m its digital minister. Maybe that kind of minister, as in preaching." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m very flexible, personally. People who work on the social innovation plan is blessed by the SDGs. Whenever PRC raises an issue, we can say, \"You also agreed on the sustainable goals yourself.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As long as we’re within the SDGs framework, so far, I’ve never heard any direct conflict with the PRC, even in UN-related meetings, of which Ray attended one, but there is many more. I think we’re relatively safe." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When it comes to sustainable goals, we’re all global citizens, anyway. We’re good." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "OK." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All right, I guess we need to run. Thank you for dropping by." }, { "speaker": "Joe Hsueh", "speech": "Yes, thank you, again." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." } ]

[ { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "各位媒體大家早安，感謝大家來到行政院第3630次院會後的記者會，那麼也按照常例，先由我來為各位來轉述院長在稍早針對報告事項，還有討論事項相關的裁示。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "首先在聽取完防治假訊息危害專案的報告之後，院長裁示：今年我國已經發生多起因為假訊息而引發的紛擾事件，不但危害社會秩序，影響社會安定，甚至對國家安全帶來衝擊。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "例如在今年6月，有人用一張11年前的相片誤導社會大眾，說香蕉被大量棄置。不僅對農產品交易市場帶來負面的影響，傷害了辛苦的農民，也抵銷的政府為平抑價格所做的努力。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "9月燕子颱風襲擊日本關西之後，一則簡訊息讓我國駐外館處飽受批評，最終進而造成一位外交官選擇輕生的悲劇。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "九合一大選合併公投舉辦，也有許多誤導民眾的不實資訊，在社群媒體間不斷的流傳。連美國國會的美中經濟與安全審查委員會都在11月14號，提交美國國會的年度報告當中指出，台灣正面臨到社群媒體或其他網路工作散播假訊息的侵擾，日前也有民眾散佈高雄港務大樓倒塌的不實訊息，造成國人的恐慌。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "院長再次強調，言論自由是民主政治的基石。今年初台灣再度被國際人權組織自由之家評列為最自由的國家之一。這是台灣社會民主自由人權的驕傲的象徵，唯隨著新興網路科技與社群媒體的發展，散播錯假訊息的現象已經日益的嚴重。不但在台灣，在各個言論自由的國家也都成為不可迴避的重大議題。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "面對此一挑戰，儘管政府各部門努力澄清，也有些民間單位致力闢謠，但是效果終究有限。部分民主國家已經透過法治的規範，強化打擊假訊息的作為。因此政府會在堅守多元民主的價值、維護言論自由的前提之下，運用現行的法令，針對明知為假訊息仍故意散播，因而造成公眾畏懼跟恐慌危害的這一類的情況，從法制面進行補強，以遏止出於惡意、捏造、假造而造成危害的假訊息，降低其對國家社會公共利益所產生的負面的影響，並回應外界的期待。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "院長特別感謝羅秉成政委的督導，以及相關部會的努力，就現行法制涉及散播不實訊息的處罰規範予以檢討還有強化。並針對散播核子事故、食品安全以及災害等，不實的訊息增定行為人處罰規範。同時本院也在去年的11月就已經送立法院審議的數位通訊傳播法草案，也就網路社群平台服務業者，保護權利人的相關協力義務，已經有適當的規範。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "第一波修改的檢討，以「全面修法、多頭並進」的方式，填補現行法之規範的不足之處，請各部會持續盤點檢討，以及完善防護的機制。而假訊息蓄意形塑「假的公民社會」、企圖傷害正常的民主秩序，各政府機關都有責任加以即時查證澄清。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "而這一次政府推動修法的工作，則是在兼顧言論自由還有社會秩序的前提之下，以更有效、快速的因應的能力，啟動自我防禦的工程，推行相關法制規範，致力打擊假訊息的危害。院長也籲請國人以及平台業者，都可以一起努力，共同的協力防治假訊息，確保公共的利益，鞏固台灣的民主制度。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "院長也再提到，過去傳統新聞媒體要求平衡報導，但是目前在新媒體還有自媒體盛行的情況之下，多已失去以前的標準。因此未來要進行更多的溝通，能與媒體還有平台業者成為夥伴關係。持續的加強與媒體、平台業者甚至社會上有不同意見的溝通說明，避免誤會持續的擴大。而有關平台業者的協力義務，必要時也要清楚的說明。並沒有要課予其查證的責任，而判斷是否為假訊息，其實是由法院來做最後的決定，不是平台業者。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "這部分也必須要讓外界知道，降低彼此的誤解。院長表示我們很清楚法制面不足以完全解決問題，必然還要有政策面，甚至科技面，包括如何找到假訊息的來源，這部分也要持續的加強。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "另外有關於建議人民對媒體信任度的民調，院長也指示請通訊傳播委員會負責，讓部分部會可以依照未來可能的調查結果，進行後續的政策擬定。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "在討論事項的部分，院長聽取完災害防救法第41條修正案等七案的報告之後，院長裁示，本案送立法院審議之後，請內政部等相關部會，積極與立法院朝野黨團溝通協調，並加強對外說明，早日完成修法的程序，以彰顯政府防治假訊息的危害，維繫國家社會安定的決心。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "而院長在聽取完公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正案，還有總統、副總統選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案之後，院長裁示：通過，函請立法院審議而本次的修正，係為強化防杜黑金假訊息，還有境外勢力介入選舉罷免活動。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "促進選舉罷免廣告資訊要公開透明，以及改進選舉作業，並使兩部選罷法規範一致。對於維護選舉罷免活動的公正還有公平性，具有正面的作用。本案送請立法院審議之後，也請內政部要積極與立法院朝野各黨團溝通協調，早日完成修法的程序。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "院長在聽取完法官法部分條文，以及第71條第2項法官俸表修正草案之後，進行以下裁示：通過，由院與司法院、考試院會銜函請立法院審議。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "而司法改革委外界關注之議題，本是修法是為建構合理有效的金字塔型訴訟制度，使得終審法院可以發揮同一法律見解的功能，同時健全法官監督淘汰機制，以回應社會的期待，提高司法的公信力。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "院長就法院組織法部分條文修正草案做出以下裁示：通過，由院與司法院、考試院會銜函請立法院審議。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "而在聽取完家庭教育法部分條文修正草案之後，院長裁示，通過函請立法院審議，並且表示，家庭是所有教育的出發點，良好的家庭教育可以造就優秀的人才與良好的人際關係，增添社會的軟實力。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "本次修法是為結合更多資源，共同推動家庭教育，提升家庭教育專業服務的能量，並增進民眾家庭教育的知能。本案送請立法院審議之後，請教育部積極的與立法院朝野各黨團溝通協調，早日完成修法的程序。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "繼續，我們就請羅秉成政委，來說明防治假訊息危害的專案，請羅政委。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "謝謝發言人，首先謝謝各位媒體朋友今天來出席記者會，在我正式報告之前，能不能跟各位做個提問：「最近一則假訊息何時發生的？」" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "你心裡可能有答案了。有答案的話，可以猜想，你已經知道什麼是假訊息了，或者有相關假訊息的經驗。我不曉得你怎麼去認定何時發生，我的答案是這樣，僅供參考。不一定對，但不是假。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "現在，就在現在網路某個地方有假訊息存在，這是個合理的推測。在現在網路世界裡面已經是無國界了，幾乎是無時無刻的可能存在。有些假訊息是我們知道，有些我們不知道。他的危害不是新話題，應該是一個老問題，這個老問題因為科技、網路的發達，推波助瀾，火上添油，才會造成現在的新災難。現在的這個新災難，尤其面對有組織、有系統的境外敵對勢力，把假訊息當成武器來攻擊的話，就是所謂的超限戰爭。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這種超限戰爭會在民主國家形成一個假的公民社會，傷害我們的民主跟法治。面對這樣的問題怎麼辦？我們先把假訊息做一個定義或描述。我用下一頁來說明。簡化來講，假訊息有三個要素：惡、假、害。很重要的，是這個行為人，發言人或製造者，主觀上是故意的，有意圖、有目的的，第二個，在特定的意圖跟惡意底下，他去做一個虛構或捏造的新聞，可能是謠言，捏造的語言，可能是事或資訊，是虛構的內容。當然這兩個要件不足以用法律來規定，因為其實有些「假」可能是戲謔，有些「假」不會造成傷害，我們要有所辨別，那是言論自由的範圍。但很重要是結果，如果造成危害，損害，尤其對個人的權利，社會的秩序，公共的安全，造成這些危害或損害的時候，我們就要講，這個時候難道法律還坐視不處理嗎？" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "現實的情形是這樣，面對假訊息要提的對策有多個面相，現在我們提出的對策是四個面向來看：識假、破假、抑假、懲假。各位看畫面左邊的識假跟破假，是在預防面，自律。右手邊的抑假、懲假，是在抑制面，是他律。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "老實講，這四個面相如果能夠面面俱到，才有機會，請注意我的用語，有機會，防制假訊息。假訊息可能類似毒品，無法消滅，所以我們有毒品危害防制條例，他是一種防守，因為他來自一種攻擊。如果對策有發生效果，最好能夠自律，預防，真的不行，抑制他律的作用要有所作為。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "我進一步講，一則假訊息從發生的前後順序來看，做一個線性思考，一般訊息出來，接觸的、接收的閱聽者能不能判斷這是假的？他可以的話，危害就降低，因為他不相信。但是有些人可能難以判斷，就像毒品，新興毒品，難以判斷，這時候有誰可以去指出那是假的？這就是破假的功能。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "識假跟破假是上游上面要先行處理，因為他是先發生，後面抑假、懲假，是後面處理。真正抑制假訊息的方法，雖然法治上有所作為，但不是最好的藥方，甚至我們現在也找不到最佳策略，從世界各國來講，這是我們要共同面對的問題。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "在這種情形下面，識假跟破假的工作就無比的重要，底下會說明我們提出的相關對策。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "抑假，先講法治作為的部份。法治作為要講清楚，賴院長在剛剛的裁示講的很清楚，言論自由的保障一寸不讓，不能踩到言論自由的紅線，這是在法治作為上我們要小心的。我們寧可，寧可穩健的去做，而不要傷害了言論自由又沒有辦法抑制到假訊息，如果策略是這樣，就會得不償失。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "那我要說明的是，行為人的法律責任，這點大家大概比較沒有什麼爭議，就像賣假貨。賣假貨的人來講，我們還容許他有買賣的自由嗎？放假話的人造成傷害了，我們可以放任他是一個言論自由嗎？還是他是言論自由的濫用呢？其實現在既有的法規總共有十三部，有刑法的部份，關於假訊息的罪，還有六部行政罰。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "公職人員選舉罷免法104條，這是非常典型的犯罪行為，是政治言論的散佈假訊息，根據惡、假、害三要素，有建立了一個定義上的參考模版，來檢討現在的法規。有些法規在之前定義，構成要件不夠明確，刑責的合理化也有問題。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "第二個，我們能不能按照這樣的模組來看還有哪邊有缺漏？今天院會通過了七項跟假訊息，法治防制有關的。其中三部法律，這三部法律是就現在法律規定來做調整，讓構成要件明確化，合理化。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這個法治作為在法律保留原則跟司法審查原則的前後把關底下，會把對言論自由的影響降到最低。我們今天院會通過的包含農產品市場交易法、糧食管理法、傳染病防制法。此外，新增散播不實訊息罪的法律條文，我們盤點發現沒有核安類型，如果有人說核三廠爆炸，是假的，我們沒有相對應法律來做處理。核安，食安，散佈食品安全的假訊息，造成消費者的權利受損、業者或公眾的恐慌，也沒有條文來處理，就有必要增訂今天通過的，核子事故緊急應變法，食品安全衛生管理法，還有災害防救法。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "除了這波已經檢討通過的法案條文外，還有很多條文要檢討的，包含刑法，中央銀行法，還有金管會正在研擬的電子支付機構管理法，電子票證發行管理條例，還有陸海空軍刑法。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "院長有提示，不單是現在已經盤點的相關法規，其他法規也要處理。這邊要跟大家說明，我們沒有定專法。13+6是本來既有的法律，我們是盤點既有法律合不合理。第二個，我們有沒有缺漏？核安要不要防範，食安要不要處理，災防的問題，散佈假訊息，向是前陣子講的，高雄港務大樓倒塌，這是不是可以容許？現有法律明顯有缺漏，所以要補正缺漏。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "再來是大家很關心的抑假問題，這跟媒體，跟平台責任有關。我跟大家說明，前幾天記者會有說明。今天通過的法，只有前面講的7部法，沒有數位通訊傳播法的修正草案。道理很簡單，數通法草案是新法，已經在去年11月行政院決議後，已經送到立法院審議中，已經出委員會，現在在協商過程。行政院不可能對還沒通過的法提修正案，也沒有計畫去提。現在已經在立法院協商中，行政院會尊重立法院最後對這個法案最後審議的結果，但是不會去撤回數通法。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "數通法在這段時間有一些被誤解的，誤解的原因是因為在討論的過程裡面，觀於平台的責任有若干的建議跟意見，這還在討論的過程，不是政策，更不是提案，要說明清楚。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "底下我跟各位介紹，數通法草案，對平台協力義務的規定是什麼？數通法第五條規定，數通業者要配合國安、資安跟刑事犯罪等偵審事項，要依法，要有法律規定，才有配合義務。他有公開揭露營業資訊跟聯絡資訊的義務，第二個很重要，每個數通平台業者，要公告對不當內容的檢舉，這個不當內容不單單是假訊息，不單單是個人權利，包括的類型很多，違法的，犯罪的，不當的，這個權利者的保護的模式，要建立申訴、通知、移除跟回復的機制。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這所謂的機制，所謂的適當處置，不一定只是移除下架一途，他叫做適當處分，加註警語也是其中一種。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "好，他要對使用者的侵權內容要處理，平台、使用者或第三人可以申請法院為定暫時狀態的假處分，所以這個還有司法審查的問題" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "我用下一張圖跟各位講，現在數通法，在立法院，行政院所提的行政院版六步驟的處理模式。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "假設，有某個平台業者接到訊息，是一個權利人，說這個假訊息，假消息損害了我的名譽，平台要怎麼做？平台要先做適當處理，比如說剛剛說的註記、標示，如果平台明白知道這個有問題，要做適當處理。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "之後要通知使用人，因為使用者有權利。是否如此？平台不做審核的責任，他就是通知使用人。使用人可以回應說沒有侵權、沒有違法，所以這個檢舉不能接受。平台者要把使用者這個異議，反對，把訊息回復給檢舉的權利人。檢舉的權利人怎麼做？權利人十天內要提出訴訟的起訴證明，如果沒有提出，前面已經做的那個適當處理要回復，如果有提出，那就看日後訴訟成敗情形，沒有提出，回復，輸了，回復，他是提供一個平台的機制。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "平台按照數通法草案的13條第二項，除非他自己處理編輯了內容，如果只是使用者的資料傳輸或儲存，平台業者不負責審查跟監督的義務，這個非常重要。這符合馬尼拉中介者原則的立法，不負審核跟查核義務，也不會因為24小時沒有下架要受到處罰，現在沒有這樣的規定。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這個平台只要踐履了適當的處置方法，比如加註警語，使大家無法接取，原則上他就免責了。沒有按照這個方法來，比如說，已經按照程序有告知，沒有適當處理，或是我提出訴訟證明你還把它任意回復，最好這個假訊息的法律責任不成立；如果成立的話，這個平台業者可能要被權利人一併追究民事的法律責任。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "除了平台業者以外，中介者的責任包含媒體，媒體這部份我們只是把原本衛廣法有規定的，媒體應該盡有因違反事實查證原則致損害公共利益的責任，在這部分，廣播電視法有缺漏，所以我們把它做一致性的規定，一樣是補充缺漏的問題。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "關於政治上的廣告，這個在這次的選罷法裡面，是個配套，要讓他透明化，要讓他實名化的話，你去刊登競選、罷免廣告，刊播者、出資者的姓名等資訊要公開，還有，禁止境外的資金來資助競選、罷免廣告，否則，違反的話有相關的行政處罰。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "接著，很重要行政措施，這裡不涉及修法，但我希望大家把眼光放在這邊，為什麼？如我一開始所講，這才有機會抑制假訊息。首先在識讀教育，他會涉及識假議題，教育部已經推出一整套完備的，民眾的，學校的識讀課程，要納入108年基本教育的課綱，落實媒體素養教育。簡而言之，每個人有獨立判斷能力，就像有免疫力，有免疫力就百毒不侵，有這些假訊息，大家就不會感覺可怕。因為他知道毒品、不會去吸毒，認知就不會有錯誤。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "有人形容，惡意的假訊息有點像毒品，他有點像新興的毒品，他是改變認知的毒品，不是用吃的，用打的，他用看的，用聽的就可能受影響。講的更嚴重一點，他是免費的，無時無刻存在的，政府不可能24小時用法律來防制假訊息，每個人要建立起自己的防禦能力，這是無比重要的。識假這塊，是很重要的基礎工程。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "接著，單靠識假、個人能力是不夠的，因為有些問題有點專業，你說那是真是假，要專業的人來看。因此，要公私協力，推廣事實查核機制。當然，政府的澄清效能機制要提高，但政府澄清功能不是只有假訊息，各種爭議訊息都會澄清。政府澄清的能力是不是足夠？他澄清的訊息是不是可以給各界接受？大家都可以一起協力。無比重要的是中立、獨立第三方的查核機制，這個在美國、其他國家都很發達，台灣已經有所起步。台灣事實查核中心，或是LINE上面的真的假的，這些公民團體力量一起來幫忙，把相反的事實，另外一個事實的對照，讓人民知道比較全面的訊息，真的假的讓你判斷，但訊息要相對完整。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "很遺憾這樣講，假訊息是超級作弊者，是偷跑者，他跑在前面，以網路現在的速度大家可以知道，真相在後面苦苦追都追不到。但是一定要處理。他有黃金處理時間，幾乎在60分鐘內就要完成處理，公私如果可以協力，把假訊息予以說明澄清，可以有很大的幫助。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "假訊息這件事情不是政府的事情而已，是人民、第三方事實查核平台、NGO、平台業者、媒體、國際合作。假訊息的策略，政府不是在找敵人，不是在找媒體的麻煩、不是在找平台業者的麻煩。大家有共同的責任。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "平台的業者最近有些指教，我們虛心接受，但是平台業者也聽聽人民的聲音。今天，假訊息那麼的氾濫，平台業者真的盡了他的自律責任嗎？平台業者賺了那麼多的錢，廣告費用，用精準廣告的方式，使用我們人民的個資，即便大家同意，做精準廣告，（假消息）產生危害擴散，是不是也應該能想具體辦法，跟大家一起合作、來抑制？" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "我完全相信，也願意相信，媒體跟平台業者都討厭假訊息、都不喜歡假訊息，尤其媒體。假訊息會傷害媒體的公正性，真實跟真相是媒體的靈魂。大家都不喜歡。但是如果一直在意政府要管我，那解決不了問題。政府真的不想管。我如果開口說要管言論，就輸了！但能不管嗎？能不規定嗎？能不一起來防制嗎？我想，這麼嚴肅的事情，大家要一起來面對。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "最後，讓我來對我們的民眾做一些簡單的呼籲。三不，不要製造假訊息，不要轉傳假訊息，尤其，你認為訊息是有疑慮，有問題的，你笑而置之、不要處理。你傳出去，收到訊息的人可能因為信賴你而相信他。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "第三個，不要相信假訊息，你提出來以後有反對意見，請仔細思考。假訊息這件事情，其實我有一個比較正面的看法，我認為並無不好，當然不是我喜歡假訊息。原因是這樣，各位想想看，假訊息就像感冒，像病毒，在攻擊我們，攻擊我們的政府，但是現在我們已經有警覺性了，我自己提昇免疫力，政府有民主的自我防衛機制，這有什麼效果呢？我們公民的獨立判斷能力會因這些挑戰而提昇，從這件事情來看，要當做正面的事情，我希望大家一起努力，以上。" }, { "speaker": "央廣", "speech": "請教羅政委，今天的修法草案裡面，內政部社會秩序維護法也有修法草案，但今天沒有這部法，為何沒有在這波包含？是因為行政院對罰則有不同意見？" }, { "speaker": "央廣", "speech": "這播修法草案針對假訊息，外界也在討論假新聞，想要詢問唐鳳，對假新聞，除了媒體識讀之外，是否有因應作法，甚至處罰？" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "謝謝央廣提問，沒有錯，內政部在這波法裡面，除了災防法，也有社維法，之前的新聞有報導。報院之後，院裡討論過程有在溝通，這部法暫時沒有溝通的原因是因為言論自由的考慮。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這部法內政部利益是正面的，社維法現在63條1項5款有規定，散佈謠言，影響公共安寧，處3日以下拘留，3萬以下罰款，他是行政罰，跟剛剛講的刑法不一樣，是既有的法律規定。剛剛不是講，法律構成要件可能不盡明確，法律情形是不是要檢討，內政部有檢討，第一個，他把構成要件明確化，他要符合謠言跟不實訊息，要引起公眾恐慌，效果把拘留拿掉，因為言論用拘留好不好？那是人身自由。假訊息關三天，我們也在檢討範圍內。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "檢討過程因為把拘留拿掉，我們在討論過程發現一件事，我們要審慎處理，現在的規定有留拘留，拘留牽涉人身自由，所以按照現在的法律規定，按照社維法去裁罰假訊息案件，是法院處罰，他是司法審查。如果好意把拘留拿掉，變成單純的行政處罰，是警察機關直接可以罰，當然罰了不服可以去救濟，去打行異議的訴訟程序，由法院做最後的決定，但既有的法律跟新的法律就會產生一個程序保障的落差。現在的法律由法院決定要不要罰，改了以後變成警察來裁罰。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "警政署對於社維法非常謹慎，要件改的很言，這個情形底下，如果要留社維法規定，是不是讓法院裁罰比較好？但單純行政秩序法讓法院來裁罰比較少，要院際協調。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "再來，如果各法面面俱到、到位了，社維法是否需要？因為他有若干的構成要件跟個法有重疊，這種重疊會從中，從刑法來處理，是否需要社維法，也是要思考的點。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "內政部警政署已經在做通盤性的檢討在計畫作為內，這次因應專案來做這個檢討，我們認為已經在做通盤檢討，包含法律規定，社會秩序法規定罪高六萬元，但內政部建議條文把假訊息抬高到三萬以上，30萬以下，這樣會影響其他社會秩序維護法的平衡性，這樣可能會失去平衡。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "謹慎考慮下，我們認為現在階段只是第一階段的修法，要穩健處理這個議題，我跟徐部長有溝通，他也支持，有院際協商問題，就沒有列入處理。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "有關社維法，我在內政部部務會議檢討的時候，我是把構成要件明確化，經過內政部，構成要件明確化之後，人民言論自由更大，因為你不容易違反社維法。以現在的社維法模糊狀態，很容易違反，我是更加保障言論自由。因為我把它改成要經過舉發才會違反，現在不必舉發，機關就可以查，所以其實對言論自由更有保障。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "對當時大家某一些認知產生的誤解，我先做個說明。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "第二點，我是根據法院判決，相關的判例，我把社維法更加明確為說，你要明知不時事實仍然散佈才會違反社維法。現在明知更嚴格，更不容易違反這個法律，更不會犯罪，我是把它改成更保障言論自由。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "但是因為我認為社維法不應該有拘留，那是人身保護，所以我拿掉拘留，如果大家去了解內政部的修法，是更保障人身自由，沒有拘留，法院就不能判關三天，只能罰錢，但是只能罰錢，就需要院際協商，牽涉司法院，那是法官這部份，要有院際協商。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "院際協商不是我內政部可以做的，要送到行政院，由行政院去跟司法院協商。在行政層級上一定要是行政院跟司法院做協商，內政部不能做，也必須要送到行政院來。所以由行政院來做相關審核以後，來做進一步處理。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "當然社維法還有要處理的，譬如說，我們把像是63條，當我把行政罰鍰稍微提高後，總則不能超過六萬，但在分則要超過六萬，就要在總則說「有特殊規定者除外」。但這會不會讓整個體系產生細微變化？所以把社維法修正把行政院做通盤考慮，沒有送的原因來跟大家做宣示跟說明。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "換句話講，社維法修正，更保障言論自由，要是把構成要件分析一下，把故意跟過失，是更保障的。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "接下來請唐鳳政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "感謝這個問題。聯合國今年9月有發佈手冊，關於新聞工作跟假訊息，封面上是把「假新聞」劃掉的。新聞工作者，各位是我們的夥伴，但光是提出假新聞這三個字，就有損害夥伴關係。所以十月開始，院裡討論假訊息危害防制，就不再使用假新聞這三個字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "按照聯合國說法，這三個字可以有兩種完全不同的解讀。一種是「不是新聞工作，偽裝成新聞工作」，那就叫做「假訊息」就好，不用叫做假新聞。另外一種是新聞工作，但是在新聞倫理上沒有善盡查證義務，或是查證程序，那像這次把衛廣法相關條文放到廣電法，就夠了，不用用這三個字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這三個字在討論過程中是沒有出現的。" }, { "speaker": "風傳媒", "speech": "請教羅政委，這次修改13個法律立意良善，但仍有可能對人民言論有限縮效果，像是高麗菜價格崩跌，有人說一公斤掉到5元以下，但農委會要是主張台北農產運銷公司批發價是多少，認為是假訊息。" }, { "speaker": "風傳媒", "speech": "或是以食安為例，有人散佈在統一的冰淇淋內有家化學成分所以融化速度比較慢，類似狀況如果說農委會或是食品業者對於發送訊息的人提告，這會不會對發送訊息的人造成影響？如果說，金門的水用廈門的水，廈門的水可能有豬瘟問題，農委會認為是謠言散佈，實際執行上會不會有問題？" }, { "speaker": "風傳媒", "speech": "接下來會修央行法，還有電子支付相關法律，會涉及貨幣政策或相關討論嗎？危害金融秩序如果有評論，會違反金融秩序，對這些人進行處罰嗎？" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這個提問從後面開始，先繼續盤點各法，有些跟金融法規有關，我無法代替相關部會說明，因為他們還在檢討中，他們現在認為政策上有檢討跟調整的必要。這當然跟金融秩序有關，但跟各部會完成，提到行政院，要到行政院來審查。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "您剛剛提到很多個案，我再次說明，在構成要件上面，既有的13部法的結構是大約相同，並沒有變異原本的結構。增加的核安、食安，災防，這些類型，個案的判斷由法院來做終局處理，法律的條文可不可以規定到鉅細靡遺？當然可以，但是我們要累積相關的實務上的見解。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "就像我在院會上報告提到的最高法院見解，怎麼去解釋什麼叫做假？什麼叫主觀？什麼叫動機？什麼叫意圖？等等。你剛剛講的例子我無法逐一回答，因為我不是法官，我現在回答可能不盡合理、完好，但這些定義下要造成危害。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "有些可能見解錯誤，他的認知跟見解錯誤，他也無意用這樣的認知跟見解達到某些意圖，像是干擾市場秩序，他沒有動機跟意圖，你或許可以歸類到爭議訊息，或是誤導訊息，他沒有惡意，但專業上可能不對，這要讓言論市場做處理。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "跟政府有關，可能要釐清，但釐清是不是要移送法辦？很抱歉，構成要件很嚴格，要按照構成要件來移送，之後法院要按照構成要件的內容來做判斷，大家不要太緊張。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "現在既有的法律，就算有十三部法，但是發生的個案，移送的、判罪的，沒有這麼多。現在網路上流傳的訊息，有一大部分是真假難辨，可證明全部為部分不真實，很困難。真正要法律去處理的是那個有正當性、有問責必要性的那部分。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "你剛剛講的幾個例子要探討完整事實，之後法律規定如何，按照法律規定來判斷。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "我來補充一下，你提到事實還不夠明確，很簡略，第二個也就是太簡略，難以判斷，羅政委講過，三個基準判斷。惡，有沒有惡意？這個故意、惡意是重點，所以從判斷來講，構成要件就不該當。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "第二個要看是不是假？假的程度是什麼？高麗菜有降價，也許真的有，可能要出來澄清，降價的是下級品，不是上級品，但他沒有講啊，類似這些要進一步澄清。惡跟假很重要，之後還要看害，有沒有損害。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "這三個做判斷就能了解。事實更釐清的時候，用這三個判斷就了解了。最後的判斷還是在法院，但是可能構成三個，才會構成不時訊息責任的問題。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "舉例出來以後，大家覺得怪怪的，但判斷之後很簡單就可以釐清了。這是在內政部主管裡面，我也只是用這個標準要明確的，罪高指導原則還是言論自由，不能侵害。" }, { "speaker": "聯合晚報", "speech": "我想請教一下，剛剛有提到說，賴院長最後一點指示，建議對媒體信任度的民調由通傳會負責，讓部會依照調查結果進行後續政策擬定。這部份媒體對人民信任度民調擴及哪些層面，哪些媒體，怎麼進行，後續政策擬定又是怎樣的方式？" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "這部份稍早在院會中討論到，歐盟在今年二月用兩天的時間打了兩萬通電話，對歐洲閱聽眾做調查，這部份可以參考歐盟的報告，針對大家習慣的媒體，對電視還是廣播信賴度高，線上新聞信賴度高，做普查。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "稍早有討論這個議題，院長裁示相關部會，NCC是否要應該針對台灣人民使用媒體習慣跟信賴程度作為一個普查調查，也作為部會推論跟研擬政策的參考。這剛剛才討論到，可能跟NCC詳細討論後，才有研究計畫。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報", "speech": "將來如果在網路上散播假訊息，是否還能用是用意圖使人不當取得的規定來做裁罰？政委您盤點蠻久的時間，十幾項法律，甚至二十項，但今天涉及修法一共是七項，但又集中在核安、食安、氣象等問題的加重刑責跟罰鍰，但民進黨立委關切的，是選舉期間針對政治言論的不時訊息無法規範到。" }, { "speaker": "自由時報", "speech": "這次的修法沒有看到這一部分，政委可以跟我們說明一下，第一步採取穩健行為，這些修法，重要修法是什麼？如果沒有平台業者限時下架、沒有社維法最高罰30萬，那這次比較重要的修法是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "先說選罷法五年以下，條文沒有動，內政部整理要件以後，他符合惡假害的要件，還是留著。雖然沒動社維法，但既有條文還是有效，但執法過程應該採取嚴格解釋，避免紛擾。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "十幾項法律的盤點，有些不會盤點後才認為要整理，還有下一波，那政治言論的假訊息如何處理？大家飽受其苦。廣告也好，不時訊息造成候選人傷害也好，單靠原來的兩選罷法，尤其選罷法104條是否有空？那是後控。有沒有機制做處理？都要在後面修法也好，政策討論也好，來做討論。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "比如說專案小組的法律比較，也發現法國，在11/20剛通過通過選舉法修正，他是這樣修的，選前第一天往前回溯3個月內，要是有假訊息，包括扭曲，不精確言論，可能影響到選舉結果的可靠性，好寬，我是讀他的文字跟大家講，在這樣情形下誰可以做一個法律上的主張？候選人、政黨、檢察官、利害關係人，他可以申請法院下禁制令，包含移除下降跟適當處置，法院要在多久以內處理？這比較特別，要在48小時內處理。我們數通法的機制沒有限時，給業者有適當的時間跟適當的方法處理。法國的處理有限時，限在誰身上？法院身上，因為要即時，放一個月才裁，選舉都結束了，他有個機制是這樣做。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "法國在討論爭議也不少、法也剛過，影響我們也要觀察。為什麼穩健處理？第一波，要比較小心的原因是，法制化的作為工具有限，各國找不到可以學習的模範，專案小組討論過程中也有仔細研究德國的網路執行法，NetzDG，這部法完全針對網路平台加重責任設計，德國已經運作一年多了，算是比較有經驗，立法過程就爭議不斷，修法通過也爭議不斷，有三件違憲官司在打。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "以德國模式來做，好不好？我們要很謹慎。我們不見得比德國更高明。他們設計的方法要加重平台責任，我認為也是萬不得已。我所知德國本來有電信法，要求業者要有協力義務，但做不到，萬不得已才下這個手。違反這條要處五千萬元的歐元，多麼重，但是德國下這麼重手，有罰到半件嗎？沒有。但是他的附帶效果很大，平台業者會過度刪除，我怕罰啊！" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "他加入很多成本，有沒有效果不曉得，但是成本不斷墊高。平台業者我還是要講，自律做的到，政府沒必要管，也不用管。自律做不到，應該有適當約束，讓大家一起成長，這在後續政策思維上，社維法，或是其他的法律，像是法國針對政治選舉言論的機制，在台灣高度保障言論自由的社會，都要多加討論跟對話。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這些都可以討論，如果是既定政策提到立法院，都能討論，更何況還不是。但值不值得討論？值不值得討論平台是不是有更多的責任跟付出？我們是不是要想到危害的情形，不是一方的責任，平台業者也不能束手無策，我也相信平台業者已經有在做，其實有在做，但也要問，這個有效果嗎？他現在的自律機制有效果嗎？我真的不曉得。這個答案要大家一起去追索。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "剛剛新方問的公職人員選舉罷免法104條，主管單位是內政部，我也來回答一下，好像我四個月地一次回來這裡。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "新方要問的是，104調適不是在當選無效之速的範圍內，所以他可能用意圖使人不當選有不時訊息，但不是聽起來當選無效範圍之一，但是不是能夠....那...萬一用毀謗的方式還是當選了，又不能提起當選無效之速，被毀謗的人怎麼辦？" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "其實是這樣，我們看地方制度法97條，縱然當選無效的理由沒有列舉，可是如果涉及毀謗判刑確定，只要沒有緩刑宣告，沒有易科罰金，是要解職的。大家看一下，如果把相關法律跟相關配套做整體觀察，不是沒有救濟制度。還是有那個方向。唯一的是說，當選無效之速，對於法院有時間限制，三個月內要完成審判，法院還是很多超過三個月。一般訴訟沒有這個規定，差在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "徐國勇", "speech": "按照地方制度法，判刑確定沒有緩刑，易科罰金，還是要解職，79條還是有這些問題存在，整個做配套觀察的話，並不是104條不在當選無效之速內就產生這些問題，只不過程序不太一樣。" }, { "speaker": "聯合", "speech": "大家好，剛剛有回答到說，院長裁示要做「人民對媒體信任度」的民調，請問是誰的建議？" }, { "speaker": "聯合", "speech": "這一波媒體處理假訊息行動裡頭，罪受到爭議的是可不可能研修國安法？似乎在盤點法律中沒提到，是不是會在下一波修法中處理？我不知道政委在之前召集研商過程，是不是有觸擊到對國安法的修法？未來修法方向是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "我先回答問題，提出討論的是我，因為我舉出聯合國跟歐盟的相關作法，在這樣的脈絡下，院長做出這樣的建議和裁示。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "謝謝何明兄，這個提問也是眾所關注，沒有錯，這一波沒有相對國安散播不時訊息罪的相關法律規定，專案的討論過程中有所觸擊，也去參考各國的相關作法，各國相關的作法大體上多是在行政措施跟作為中處理，很少用專法或是條文來處理國安的假訊息攻擊問題。如果以國安問題來說，他就是超限戰爭，那就是資訊戰，是打仗問題。跟我們現在其他的假訊息處理，其他國家的處理似乎也是分開來做。國安議題是不是能用法律處理，現在比較法上比較少，大體上有許多國家，如美國，在國防授權法也不是假訊息規定，在授權法底下，由他們國務院跟國防部有播預算跟經費，也不少，他們有中心，在硬處各種國安假訊息，那是實際操作面如何處理，是技術面的問題，不用修法說如何處理。" }, { "speaker": "羅秉成", "speech": "這部份沒有要列入修法範圍內，可能跟國安部門跟單位要溝通，其他各國作法也要多所了解。這部份有高度機敏性，要尊重各方看法在來處理。" }, { "speaker": "NHK", "speech": "想請教院長裁示媒體信任度問題，後續交給NCC處理，這部份民調有沒有可能作為評鑑換照的參考依據，甚至成為NCC日後撤銷某家電視台執照的依據？" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "這部份不是這樣的。大家上網可以看歐盟民調，他其實是普查資料，是基礎資料的建立，不是檢察媒體，給他排名，說哪個媒體不被信任，不是這樣，大家都可以看到公開資訊，他只是針對國人，歐盟是針對歐洲各國國民經常使用的媒體有哪些，國民主觀覺得他比較相信哪裡來的新聞？像是電視的新聞他比較相信，更勝於在廣播中聽到的，有人認為報紙比較可信，他只是針對收視行為的調查分析，是基礎資料的分析，不是那個類型。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "大家要了解調查，可以上歐盟的網站，他有很多柱型圖、數字、百分比，只是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "Kolas Yotaka", "speech": "感謝大家來，記者會到此結束。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Should I start? My name is Eivind Røssaak. I work as a researcher at the National Library of Norway. I think we’re one of the few national libraries in the world to have a distinguished research section. We take part in national research projects in Norway. The current project is called \"Digitization and Diversity\", in cooperation with the Oslo Business School among others." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "We look into the transformation of culture and media industries in Norway after digitization, as we call it, in a broadest possible sense. We investigate the book industry, the newspaper industry, the book industry, libraries and museums, and finally the cinema industry. We’re a team of about 20 researchers." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Here today, I represent them, and I told them I would hopefully be able to meet you. They’re very curious and very interested in both your role, what a person like you are able to do within a government structure, so to speak, and how this set-up can also possibly inspire other countries." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I have some specific questions concerning my research project, on how we look at things, and maybe some viewpoints." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Would you like to close the door? Not to make this a closed-door meeting, just to make sure the recording quality makes better. Please." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "To start, what’s your ambitions and dreams with your job?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t have any ambitions." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That’s interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m here to fulfill other people’s ambitions." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Exactly. How can you fulfill other people’s ambitions through the structure you’re working in now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like here, which is my office, I hold office hour, which is every Wednesday, 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, but not limited to Wednesday. Today is not a Wednesday, people can still just meet me here, provided that they agree to have the entire conversation published online after 10 days of editing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just by this simple act, we have a website called SayIt. It’s kind of archival work, actually, so you can see that in my two years as Digital Minister, I’ve talked to 3,000 people in 160,000 speeches. Each and every speaker, it is structured data, machine readable." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can see not just interviews with journalists and/or lobbyists, but actually the internal meetings that I hold is also published online." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "They are done here, mostly, these events?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, the collaborative meetings are usually done here. Of course, I also tour around, like going to Toronto, to New York City, and things like that. All of these conversations, it’s not just the summary. It is actually the entire conversation, with the names and everything." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I saw your blog, but I didn’t find this page." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. It’s called SayIt." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Could I take a picture of it?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure, of course." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is just the textual part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On my Twitter and my Facebook there is also the non-textual part, which may also interest you, because you also work with other modalities. Which is at track.pdis.tw, PDIS being a public digital innovation space." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For each occurrence -- for example, a conversation with Paul Preciado, which is a philosopher -- it is available both in live-streaming mode, in transcript mode, and as a interactive whiteboard, of sorts. People with different modalities, they can choose the modality that they prefer to relive the conversation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sometimes, with lobbyists, we also keep a 360 record, so there you can put on VR and relive the lobbying with Uber, and so on. The whole point of this, what we call radical transparency, is to make sure that everybody can get the context, the why of policymaking." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In other countries, with the freedom of information laws, usually, the government is required to publish only after a decision is made. Before a decision is made, it’s called a drafting stage. Usually, those documents are never made public." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan’s FOIA, we say the drafting stage information may be made public if it serves a public interest. In reality, officials very rarely use that clause. When I joined the cabinet, I have three working conditions, like compact. The first one is everything I see, when I publish it, is of public interest. I don’t have to check with anyone anymore." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Anyone can put on a VR glass and feel how it’s like in my daily schedule, who I have met, who I have talked with, and know the why of policy making. Even though the public service at first feels kind of uneasy about it, very soon they found it has everything going for it, and nothing against." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, when things go right, after the decision, the minister always take all the credit. When things go wrong, they don’t go past the drafting stage, the minister always blame the public service. Now, with the radical transparency, it’s the other way around. If things work right, everybody sees which public servant are the one who proposed the innovation in the first place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have names on it, they have a photo on it. I talk about their names in my presentations, and they also face the people, face-to-face, in collaboration meetings. They feel much more proud of their professional work. They’re no longer anonymous." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, if things don’t work out, if it doesn’t become policy, then I absorb all the risk. It’s always Audrey’s fault. People in the public sector can always partner with the social sector and the private sector to continue those endeavors because now, they have the context of policy making." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Very soon, all the public service people decided, \"Oh, it’s actually a good idea.\" The two years of working, mostly in members, everybody knows how the cabinet works and how a digital minister works. That’s my first working condition. I don’t have anything that I want to push, and that’s my second condition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s called voluntary association, meaning that I never give orders, and I never take orders. My office is literally one person from each ministry, at most. Technically, I can have 34 staff. At the moment I have 22." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Here, in this building?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this building, as well as administration building. PDIS is literally like six spaces in the physical, and also in the digital. In a digital space, what we share is a workspace. At any time, I can show you exactly what my team is working on." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "This is open also?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is entirely transparent. Every time people in my office can start a project, and every time we can track how the project is going. Anyone can join it, and nobody takes command. Anyone can create a card, saying \"OK, I want this to happen.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have to talk with all the other different people in the staff, which are all from different backgrounds, and different ministries. Each ministry is a different value, you see, to create synergy. My work is purely facilitative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I don’t take sides, or rather, I take all the sides of all those 22 people. Then they figure out what to work with. That’s the core team. The peripheral team is the team of what we call participation officers in every ministry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is charged with the same facilitative role, but with their agencies. As I work in a cross-ministerial role, they work in a cross-agency role within their ministry. It’s like a fractal thing. That’s the second thing. It’s called voluntary association. The third thing is called location independence." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Meaning that wherever I am working, I’m working. I’m not limited by space or time, in terms of work. Anywhere that has broadband Internet, that enables me to connect to the virtual space, I count as working hour. The same applies to my staff." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every year we have like 30, 40 interns. Some interns, they are not in Taipei. Some interns are in Toronto all the time. They’ve never been in Taiwan in the two months, and they’re still our interns." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Are they usually Taiwanese, or foreigners?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They’re usually Taiwanese, but we also have fellow researchers, like Fiorella, is from Florence. We also have people from Madrid doing comparative human geography, which is very ethnographic, meaning lots of hanging out. She studies the effect of those collaborative spaces on people, how people behave, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We also work with researchers, and we also publish papers on the social archive network. I think all this enables a rather different view on a ministry. It’s almost like a, I don’t know, spiritual ministry. It’s all about making sure that people can figure out common values despite their different positions. That’s our main way of working." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "How does this work, really? Are you the alibi of openness and freedom of expression?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "How does your practice affect everyday practices and routines in Taiwan? For example: My wife is from Taiwan, so I go here often. Her brother is a businessman in Yuanlin." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "He says, \"If you meet Audrey Tang, can you ask her, why it is so cumbersome to expand a business, set-up a new business or buy a new office, one has to go through a bunch of access points and databases to fill in a variety of forms and applications, why doesn’t the government set up one database for these kinds of application processes?\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. onestop.nat.gov.tw, our one-stop company registration, we just finished that work. Previously, they really needed to use a kind of wooden seal, like 印鑑證明 and things like that. It’s all relaxed now." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s fixed now. What we do basically is we systematically review all the different outdated regulations and interpretations. Then we set up this platform called sandbox.org.tw, where people can say they think certain regulation is out of date, they are in need of update." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, the ministries usually work in a kind of siloed way. They’re kind of difficult to move across the ministries." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Because of my entirely cross-ministry working methodology, your friend, or your family, they’re very much welcome to go to sandbox.org.tw, and/or to attend one of my regional tour meetings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I tour around Taiwan. Every Wednesday, I’m here, everybody can talk to me, but on Tuesdays, I tour around Taiwan. Visiting in Hualien, and I don’t know when we will go to Yuanlin, but in any case, we just tour around." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As I tour around -- for example, when I was in Taitung -- it was maintained by the Council of Indigenous Affairs. I talked with the Amis people, the Lukai people, the indigenous nations, who often work on what we call 勞動合作社, a co-op focused on labor, a working co-op." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "These people, they previously had a lot of legal complications, because they are not a company. They are not subject to the labor basic law, and things like that. People often mistake them for just associations and things like that, but they are actually a co-op. They raise a lot of points." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Previously, they were stuck, because the Ministry of Interior would say, \"Oh, I need to talk with the Ministry of Health and Welfare. I need to talk with the Counsel of Public Construction, and National Development Counsel, and things like that.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This original story gets lost when you only have like five pieces of A4 papers. Often, it just gets nowhere, but because when I was touring around, it’s not just me. All the 12 ministries, here, are in the Social Innovation Lab, on the second floor. Watching through my eyes the actual people, and people’s stories, and their problems, their issues. It’s two-way." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The people in those indigenous, rural, or remote areas, they also see all the 12 ministries’ people. It’s very difficult for the ministry to say, \"Oh, I have to talk to the Minister of Interior,\" because the MOI is sitting next to them. They have to brainstorm and figure out something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The entire transcript is published 14 days after each such meeting. In almost 100 cases, within two weeks, we just have a solution, because nobody wants to lose face. Previously, the public service didn’t want to take the risk of initiating a cross-silo conversation or to be accused of 圖利, of unfairly treating a certain commercial supplier." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Now, because it’s transparent, it’s multistakeholder. I absorb all the risk, so suddenly they become very normative. If you go to sandbox.org.tw, you can see almost 100 cases that has been either relaxed, and/or simplified, and/or redesigned to be more digitally accessible." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still, I do nothing. I do nothing than making sure there is a space for people to formulate their synergies." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Very good. I’ve been assessing various digital archive projects around the world. I was very fascinated by TELDAP, or the Taiwanese e-Learning and Digital Archive Project." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I think it started back in 2001, and it was a very pioneering project, because at some point, up to 150 museums, libraries, universities, cinemateques, and film archives were involved in this digitization project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I thought it was extremely interesting. I told my colleagues about this, and I’ve been trying to follow it up. Now, it seems their website is hosted from Academia Sinica. IHowever, it seems to me, it’s not very much updated recently - is it still active?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It has several successor projects that reuses the archives in a way that is more participatory. It is true that the TELDAP was very pioneering, but as with the National Palace Museum, which started a very similar..." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That was also part of it, I think." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, it’s a sibling project. The outcome of these efforts were not open data, in the sense that it was not entirely open for remixing and for licensing." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I think so, too. I also had that silo feeling again, when me and my wife tried to work through it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. If you want to remix, you have to fill in those A4 forms, for them to send a CD-ROM to you, and so on. I think while the work is commendable, its distance from the general population is very wide, so that people don’t feel it’s part of our culture. They feel it’s just something that is the historian archivers are doing for their field." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of the main contributions, I think, in the both National Palace Museum, and the Ministry of Culture, is that we restarted a project called 國家記憶庫, the National Memory Archive." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Oh, interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is a retake of the original TELDAP vision. The National Palace Museum counterpart is..." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Who is hosting this, the Ministry of Culture?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Ministry of Culture, that’s right. The National Palace Museum, which I assume you know, is not part of the Ministry of Culture? The NPM is actually a cabinet member. We are very strange. The head of NPM is actually a cabinet member. It belongs to its own." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Always?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, because technically it represents the memory of the Qing Dynasty, [laughs] for some reason." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Is this the same website?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the NPM one." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That’s NPM one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. Previously, in the previous cabinets, like three years ago, since TELDAP, two or three years ago, the NPM and the Minister of Culture resists the open data movement. They refuse to offer their archivals and their Creative Commons license. It makes it very difficult for people to bridge into their work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of our contributions, when the new cabinet formed, is we made sure that the NPM and the Ministry of Culture adopts the same open data license as any other international data sets is using. At the moment, it is, of course, not exactly very high quality. I think it’s 300 dpi or something, but, still, it’s something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then you can use it for any purpose, whatsoever. I think this really makes the NPM really feel closer to people, and we see more creations this way. We also made use of new technologies, such as what we call photogrammetry, or videogrammetry, which is drones." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is to say, remote-piloted flying vehicles. They fly around those cultural buildings and sites, and makes a 3D scanning, essentially a snapshot of these cultural buildings. At any time you can virtually take a VR glass and walk in those buildings." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s both digital preservation, but it’s also offering creative assets for filmmakers, for comic makers, for any kind of makers, actually, to station their work within those historical buildings. That is another Creative Commons work." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That’s TDAL? What ...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, the Taiwan Digital Asset Library." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That took over from TELDAP, in a way?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There’s many, as I said, derivative projects following TELDAP, including the TDAL, Story Taiwan, and of course, also The National Palace Museum Open Data, and so on. You can see a connection of these within the larger idea of 國家記憶庫, a citizens’ memory archive." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s both more accessible in terms of reusing, but it’s also more participatory in terms of people can also share. That’s our new direction, so to speak." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "The National Central Library have a project called Taiwan Memory, also. It’s about the Japanese era. That is also a derivative then?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. The \"Memory Archive\" (記憶庫) is more like a meme. It’s a hashtag. Anyone can use that hashtag to join this umbrella project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whereas in TELDAP, you have to sign a contract with the team in order to join. That is very top-down, the taxonomy. This is more like a folksonomy, and people can elect to join if they choose an open license." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "This is very interesting. I’m trying to write about this, but it’s very difficult to get an overview of the Taiwanese situation. Maybe we can exchange some info, if you have a good connection in the field that you could put me in touch with?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I do actually. Sure." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "The right people in cultural ministry, perhaps, too, who initiated these derivative projects." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Actually, it’s all online." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "My wife can help translate this." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s the framework. It actually has the entire archive of all the different cities, all the different regions, and how they’re participating into the memory archives. The Minister of Culture is more of a curative role." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is not actually going there, absorbing, and making new archives. It’s rather making sure the people who do so is interoperable, in a way. It indexes, but it doesn’t actually do more than periodical curation. I do have connection to the people who actually run this. If you’re interested, I can put you in touch." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That would be great, thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Can I ask you a question on a different subject? Because I learned about the referendum, like the one on gay marriage." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Then a friend of mine told me recently how the question was posed to the audience in Taiwan and the question was something like, \"Do you think that the natural way to get married is between one man, and one woman?\" and then people could say yes or no." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "The question was not about gay marriage at all. It wasn’t addressed explicitly. It was a total displacement of the original question. I was very shocked when I..." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "It’s manipulation." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Yeah, I heard about that. I thought that..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The actual phrasing is that, \"Do you agree that within a civil code, the marriage should be defined as between a man and woman.\" It talks about civil code, it doesn’t talk about natural." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It seemed like going away from the matter. My friend told me that. To most people who didn’t know what context this was in, they would say, \"Yes, that sounds natural to me.\" It wasn’t really about it. It sounded very strange to me. What is your comment on this, the way this referendum was done?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It talks about is civil code, which is a particular chapter in the legal system. The reason why it’s framed this way is because otherwise, it would be unconstitutional. Our constitutional court already have ruled that people, regardless of their gender, need to be protected in their right to marry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also, the marriage protections, in terms of the rights and the duties that they enjoy from the state, must not be discriminated against, whatever their gender is. That is already done. By next May, if the legislation has not enacted a law that protects the same right of the same-sex couples, then the existing civil code automatically applies, regardless of what it currently says." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the constitutional ruling. That is why the referendum has to talk specifically about the civil code definition, because it cannot prevent the law from offering the same protection to same-sex couples. The only thing they can do, the referendum can target is that it need to be done in a separate law, instead of inside the civil code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is what the referendum is about. It is more about whether it requires a new act and a new bill, or it just change the civil code. The end result is the same effect. The referendum just talks about the legal apparatus to make it happen." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Initially, they tried to add more things to it, but those were ruled as unconstitutional, which is why the end result is something that seems very technical." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I guess that explains it. Then, in the end, it means that the civil code won’t be changed, according to the referendum?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For the next two years, because the referendum is good for two years. Probably, there will be a special act that says same-sex couples, or something like that, is allowed to marry, and they enjoy exactly the same rights as chapter what and what, between this clause and that clause, in the civil code." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s all this law says. It’s just a technicality that moves it outside the civil code, and that’s it." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Many people abroad have considered it as a little bit strange that Taiwan has a referendum concerning a..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "A legal technicality?" }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Yeah, a legal technicality, and also questioning what is already a human right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The referendum doesn’t talk about the human right, it’s the same right that’s protected. It just talk about the legal technicality." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It’s a little peculiar, or misunderstood out there, maybe." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "The target was to restrain the right of the gay people?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, the right is exactly the same. Even if the civil code is changed to say that the same-sex couples can marry exactly as heterosexual genders are, that also means it’s exactly the same right to marry, right?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even the civil code changes. It doesn’t, for example, talk about artificial insemination rights, adoption rights, and things like that, because these are not in that chapter of the civil code. Whether it changes civil code or uses a special law, it’s exactly the same right to marry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is, I would say, more a mobilizing referendum than anything. They want to use this as a way to mobilize the forces that feel slighted after the constitutional ruling. I think that is what’s happening politically." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Interesting. Can I ask you something about Taiwan and the world, and this concerns also Norway in the world, our research project. It’s about how do you look at the influence of Facebook. It’s enormously strong now." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Norway is well-known for having almost 250 local newspapers. It’s one of the highest per capita in the world, I think. Now, many of these newspapers lose revenues, because even local companies put their ads on Facebook, rather than in the local newspapers. The newspapers lose..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, that’s not news. Before Facebook, it was Google, but yes." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It changes the infrastructure of a nation, this clash between the local and the global. In Norway, and in the EU, there are many efforts at regulating some of the so-called innovations from the tech companies in Silicon Valley." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Do you have issues like that here in Taiwan, when it comes to these global infrastructure clashes, as I would call them?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In terms of news, Taiwan always has a really vibrant, independent publishing tradition. We were among the first wave of people who translated the term blog as 部落格, and started movements around independent blogging, and things like that. There’s a strong civil media scene in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Still, now, I think when you ask people where to look for a social community opinion, many people will say, \"Oh, it’s the PTT,\" rather than any other for-profit companies. PTT is not-for-profit." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s within the infrastructure of the National Taiwan University, but it enjoys a certain kind of independence from either the university or the general public, because it’s purely not-for-profit. Also, it is maintained mostly by students, and by people in the social sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What I’m saying is that, when we think about social media or social enterprise, we don’t move that quickly into the Facebook imagination. When we talk about social something, we think of the social sector." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "There is a strong social sector that manages its own media in Taiwan, and they still have considerable legitimacy, if not pure influence. They have traditionally survived on donations, rather than advertisement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Da-ai television company, for example, mostly relies on donations and grants instead of advertisements. I don’t think they run much advertisement, anyway. Where people don’t have existing donation and/or subscription model, they use crowdfunding." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For example, the Taiwan Reporter, it is a crowdfunded media that is well-respected, and so on. Because the funding source is very diversified, people don’t fear as much the loss of advertisement money. Which in Taiwan, as well as in other places, has all flown to Google and Facebook. That is a fact." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Any media that still remains needs to adjust its business model. Because of the -- I wouldn’t say social media -- the more socially-minded media, they already have a diversified funding model. They’re less impacted by the lack of advertisements." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "So you think there is a stronger sort of autonomous social sector, perhaps, in Taiwan, than in Norway, or in Europe? To me, it seems like EU has certainly become one of the only forces in the world who are able to confront the tendency of monopolizing the Internet by giants such as Google and Facebook in terms of protecting the local initiatives and diversity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Our local initiatives are pretty strong, like when we first did the Uber consultation. The Taiwan Taxi Company said, \"All we want is the same and fair rules. We don’t need subsidizing. We don’t need protection against oversea interests.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All we say is, for example, Uber was able to charge extra meters if you require a special form of car, like a van or something like that. They were able to do surge pricing and things like that. They, for a while, operated without insurance costs and taxation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The Taiwan Taxi Company says, \"If you tax them, and if they register in a fair fashion, and if we’re allowed, for example, to also use cars with different colors.\" If you don’t hail it on the street, you don’t need to paint them yellow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then you can just call them from a 7-11, from Ibon, or from your phone. The Taiwan Taxi Company said, \"If we are also allowed to use cars without painted yellow, that can be offered in a tailor-made fashion, maybe offer different services, and is able to price accordingly, then we can compete fairly, and we don’t need subsidizing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is what I have eventually done. Uber is legal, in a sense." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Is it legal now?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is legal. All the Uber cars, as you can see, start with a R, as a rental. They are technically rental cars. They pay their taxes, their insurances, and so on, so it is legal. It wasn’t, but now it is." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan Taxi Company, as well as other taxi companies, are now also able if you just call a Taiwan taxi car from your phone or from 7-11, chances are that the car that greets you also accepts mobile payment, it may not be painted yellow, and things like that. It’s a fair competition." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Also you can call Japanese cars, using the Taiwan Taxi app, and the Japanese tourists can also call Taiwan Taxi Cars when they visit Taiwan, using their Japanese app. There is more Uber-like behavior, but they’re all within the same competitive framework." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re seeing the growth for the Taiwan-based Taiwan Taxi Company is not bad. People don’t generally feel that the government need to, for example, subsidize or to \"protect.\" Of course, that only pertains to the part of Taiwan Taxi Companies that can leverage the latest mobile and digital technologies." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is true that there is certain unions, there’s certain co-ops, that has not yet matched with the innovators, so that’s what we do. We also make sure that they have accessible digital retraining transformation services, so that they understand what mobile payments are, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is what the government needs to do, but not at the cost of, for example, blocking the external platform economy." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That’s interesting. I saw that you gave a talk at the UNs, open social enterprise. That looked like a very interesting event. I heard it was also some conflict around an issue, that China tried to stop the live stream." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They really didn’t. Because it’s live stream, they have to say something, but that’s it. All I work with is the sustainable goals. The goals are universally recognized by all the people on Earth really, that we need to get here by 2030." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As long as I work within the framework of the sustainable global goals, those same goals the PRC people have also signed it. Of all the different attendants, whether it’s remote or in the flesh, of the UN activities that I attend as part of the sustainable goals, I’ve never once had the PRC tried to stop me." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "One of these gets live streamed, the Geneva Internet Governance Forum. Once they realized it’s live stream, they have to say something, I guess. In reality, I’ve never faced technical blockage, and so on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The most is that if I inform the secretary that I will appear, here through telepresence in some hour and so on, maybe the PRC will stay out of the room, but that’s the most they can do." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I think it’s very interesting, and fills me with optimism, when I see the way you can work both nationally and internationally. Do you think that you can help Taiwan become recognized, and get access to more international venues through your work?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh yes, you’re absolutely right. Taiwan can help. Taiwan can help other people." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Taiwan can help other people, really. Most of our work is around the sustainable goals, as I said, but a part of the sustainable goal that I am personally interested in is enhancing reliable data. We talked a little bit about that, encouraging cross-sectoral partnerships, and most importantly, open innovation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In the sense that, for example, in many UN settings, I shared the AirBox, which is people measuring their own air qualities using measurement boxes that’s less than $100 USD, so they’re very cheap. In many jurisdictions, they don’t allow citizen scientists to organize to 2,000 or more sides, especially around this region." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If there’s more than 200, maybe they get disappeared, or severely discouraged, because they really threaten the legitimacy of the government. What we do is that we can’t beat them, so we join them. We not only set up complimentary measuring sites on the places where citizen scientists are not as active, we also listen to the citizen scientists who say, \"We want a measurement point here.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which they cannot actually do, even with drones. It runs out of battery. We are going to build wind power turbines there, for the power plant. Of course, we can carry the air boxes there. Everything here, as you can see, is open source." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s snapshotted, put to a distributed ledger, commonly known as blockchain, and then uploaded to the national super computing center. We have a website called ci.taiwan.gov.tw, that puts all the meteorological, disaster recovery, earthquake prevention, water quality data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The very interesting thing is that we partner with the local -- as well as international, because it’s all international standard -- climate change scientists. There’s some open data teams from Japan that won the award for using Taiwanese data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Then we also have people who work on AI, that can look at the air quality measurements, and write reports. That is very common to decision scientists, in that they will write like weather reports, and post it on PTT." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The \"AP-Buster\" team write in a way that is very PTT-speak, in a way that is very accessible. They can automatically push out those information, and without any human intervention. That’s very innovative." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We also have the Taiwan Water Corporation, again working with AI researchers, to detect the water leaks early, and things like that. Because it’s all open source and open hardware, everywhere around the world, people can just download it from GitHub, from Internet, and start experimenting with open hardware, and join the Taiwan Initiative Network." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re not doing it in a colonizing way, rather we co-create. Like the Wellington people in New Zealand, they invited water company AI researchers to them, co-work for three months, and resolve their own water leakage problem. They didn’t used to have the water shortage issue, but because of climate change, they now do." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In this way, we just partner with anyone who face the same social environmental issue, and co-create. Taiwan can help is the main message. We don’t quite think that people need to help Taiwan. It’s exactly the other way around." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I saw the Taipei Art Biennial now, which has \"Post-nature\" as a topic. I don’t know if you have had time to see it, but it really demonstrated all the local initiatives around Taiwan beautifully. There is also a very tough video documentary about the history and life of the social eco-protest movement." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I actually attended one of the opening talks with Preciado and Joshua Lee. That’s me. You can find the entire transcript, video, and everything online. On the track.pdis website, just look for Preciado, and you’ll see it." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "OK, very nice. One of the topics in this video was: can Taiwan survive without nuclear power plants? Do you think so?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Well, eventually." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Eventually? You will do it through windmills?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wind turbine is one of the most interesting ones, because the Taiwan Straight is really powerful, in terms of the wind. The main challenge of course, is that Taiwan don’t have the technologies. We have to partner with people in UK and Denmark and so on." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "And Norway." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "And Norway, sorry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Let’s change that in the transcript. Partner with our Norwegian and UK counterparts to build the windmills. Once we have sufficient renewable power, as well as the storage power grid and the smart meters. Actually, the problem is always not the raw amount of energy, but rather how you can store it and distribute it efficiently." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the main thing. Once we have that smart grid, I think we can survive very easily using mostly wind power, but also of course, hydro, solar, natural gas, and what have you. The solar panel is more challenging, because we’ve almost exhausted the available land for solar panels." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Even there, I think we also have some way to, for example in farmland, to interleave with the crops, and have the crops still grow with some shielding of solar panel. There’s also some innovative way, where instead of donating to a charity, you donate through a social enterprise that builds solar panel on the roof of the charity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Like the shelter or the school, and things like that which makes them cooler. I mean temperature is cooler, but also it provides a renewable income source for those people. Even on those rooftops that belongs to people who generally wouldn’t have funding to build solar panels, we are now using social financing to build those solar panels." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "My friends may have some questions or comments, I think." }, { "speaker": "Geir Yeh Fotland", "speech": "There are about 50 Danish families who are working with windmills. There’s about 600 windmills in Taiwan, on the west coast." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right. That’s just the stationary. We still haven’t announced the floating windmills, which is technologically more challenging, but actually more powerful. If you have floating, you can build it farther away." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Would the windmills affect the fishing boats?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No. Actually, it’s all pre-planned. It’s fine." }, { "speaker": "Geir Yeh Fotland", "speech": "Another one, to use is the tidal water in north Norway. The tide water is three meters difference, high and low. The tide water’s about 60 kilowatt an hour, the water stream." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "We can use the wave and water power, alongside the windmills." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "I had a question." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yes, please do." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "On the fake news, during the election period, I received many, many message from Line. Many are false. Even if I know it’s false, I don’t know how to do it. If I tell the people, the person who send me, then she would get angry." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can instruct them to add this bot from the civil society, called CoFacts. CoFacts is collaborative facts, and the name is literally 真的假的, \"Is it true or not? You don’t have to do the explaining." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The bot can do the explaining for you. You can instruct your friends, if they see information they don’t know whether it’s true or not, but they feel very strong, so they have to forward it to someone, they can forward it to the bot." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This is exactly like how we flag junk mail or spam mail, right? Email is usually private, right? If there’s an unsolicited email -- Nigerian princes have 1,000 or whatever, US dollars, 1 million US dollars, looking for deposit -- then it is not really freedom of speech, because it’s really wasting everybody’s time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It makes sense for people to flag them and send them to a clearinghouse, called Spamhaus, actually. Then they analyze the messages to make sure that whenever there’s another batch of people from the same sender, with the same content, it’s sent straight to the spam folder. It’s not really censorship." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you click junk mail, you can still see those messages, it’s just, it doesn’t waste people’s time by default." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "This is a government initiative?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "No, even though it looks like government, it’s actually a zero. It’s a g0v initiative. G0v is basically civil society, social sector people who look at what government haven’t done, but they think the government should done. They just do it themself, but use g0v as a domain." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Do they work fast enough to...?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course. As you can see, there’s only three rumors that’s not yet replied. Most of the rumors they get replied very, very quickly. We can very quickly see what is the most trending rumors at the moment." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "At this particular moment, there is usually about...This one is very popular, for some reason. No, not this one, the 11 people one, which is true, actually. [laughs] This one is also very popular. It’s about when someone have a cardiac arrest, you should use a bow tie or a tie, actually, to fix the issue. It’s actually misinformation." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s actually wrong, and it shows you exactly how it’s wrong. If you just just teach your friends to flag those, the bot can get back to you, and say whether it’s true or not. Some of it is true, it’s just very sensational. Some of it is false, and then you don’t have to do the explaining. It doesn’t harm your social relationship with your Line friends." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "That’s good. The second question was, all the issues will be published on the Facebook, on the website, on the Internet before the law has become law? Every stage will be open?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Essentially the referendum, if we want to use the Taiwan name to join the Tokyo Olympic. Before it became a serious issue by the government..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The government doesn’t initiate that, it is citizen initiated." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Right, but China has done something to stop us." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "What, exactly?" }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "They stopped the 東亞青運." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I see." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "It’s not a problem yet, but China could do something." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. The PRC, of course, they can always do something." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Does the openness come or go?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You mean, if we put this referendum in secret, they would not be able to stop us?" }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Because it’s still in discussion. It’s still in discussion, and China already take this first step before a government can be..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If a referendum proposers are doing it in secret, first of all, I don’t think it will mean that the PRC won’t know about it. It’s very likely the PRC will know about it anyway. The second thing is that the countersigning, the signature collection part of the petition, is meant to have people talking about this issue. You can’t really do it in secrecy. It doesn’t really work like that." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Since China has done something, many people thought, \"Oh, if we vote that way, then we will harm our support people to join the Olympic games. Maybe we should wait for the result. Then China won’t have enough time to react to that.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It is true. It is possible that if the signature collection is not so loud, if people don’t go to the street to collect the signatures, that it will not create such a political pressure so that the PRC has to react. On the other hand, I don’t think our democratic process should be judged based on what PRC reacts or not." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it’s not a healthy point of view, because everybody can do something. It’s true that I think the electronic signature collection, it will actually be wrote out online. We didn’t have time this time, because of our cyber security auditing laws. It only become into effect next January. We haven’t yet audited the referendum system." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Eventually, you will be able to sign a referendum countersignature through electronic means. It will be not exactly secret, but you can do it in your comfort, privacy place. I think it will both make referendum more convenient to propose." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Maybe you’re right, it will not be as loud as people going to the street, collecting signatures. Although they are, of course, still free to do that." }, { "speaker": "Geir Yeh Fotland", "speech": "They know that they can elect online. I can vote from Taiwan. I don’t have to go to Norway for election. Taiwan, you have to come to Taiwan for election. Why is that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In Taiwan, that’s an obscure part of Taiwanese law, because we have this idea of household registration. The idea, very simply put, is that people are supposed to be registering a certain household." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "When they vote, they’re only supposed to go to the ballot box of that particular household, the registration. That’s the root reason of why over-the-Internet voting is not yet enabling Taiwan. We’re considering relaxing that." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "In many places where it’s not voting for people, but rather voting for budget, or for priority, that participatory budgeting, or iVoting in Taipei, the e-petition system, or the, very soon, the e-referendum signature collection system, these you will be able to do over the Internet." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The actual voting for a person part, at the moment, is still tied to the household registration system. Of course, if the household registration system gets an overhaul, if we can say anyone should be vote anywhere, then it will probably start with the referendum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The reason why is that if people vote for their township, for example, but in a place that’s very far away, it’s very easy to see who actually voted for what. Perhaps, only quite a few people live in that particular precinct that has their household registration back there." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Referendum doesn’t have this problem, because everybody votes on the same national referendum issues. We will do a lot of experiments. I think the electronic tallying is also another thing. This time, people who work at an election booth, they stay until very, very late to open all the referendum cases." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we have automatic tallying, like in punched cards or in the 2B pencils, and things like that, you can easily use machine to count it. You can also do a human count, in parallel, to verify it. It enables people to very easily see the result right after the referendum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, that takes away some advertisement revenue from the media, but I think democracy makes more sense. Maybe we’ll try that, but with the caveat, the Central Election Committee is independent. I am supposed to say what they will do, but we have provided plenty of advices, and I think they will try it out, first with the referendum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If it works really well, then maybe we’ll move on to other things." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Many people work in China, and if they are allowed to vote through each Internet, don’t you think China will do something to intervene?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "People have proposed something that is more of a compromise, in the sense that you have to still vote in a booth. Maybe you go to Kinmen, and then you voted in a booth in Kinmen. Over the Internet, through postal, or whatever, it still counts back in your household registration place." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That is the kind of compromise position that people have generally agreed on. You’re right, if you’re allowed to do so in a Internet that is controlled by the PRC, there really is no guarantee of secrecy, of who is watching when you are voting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think voting for electoral candidates -- as in, voting for people -- we still need a lot of time for people to get into the state where people feel they’re secure in doing such voting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which is why we’re not doing Internet voting for people, but for petitioning, for participatory budgeting, and maybe sometime for referendum in a compromise solution. Maybe we can try those, but not yet, for the president, and for the MPs." }, { "speaker": "Geir Yeh Fotland", "speech": "We also can vote ahead in Norway, three months ahead. If I’m in Norway, three months before the election, I can vote before I leave." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s another good solution. In the sense that if you do Internet voting that is ahead vote, you can always -- even though people are watching over your shoulder, and things like that, giving you bribery, or whatever -- you can always at an election day, still go to the booth and override your previous voting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Far as I know, Estonia is doing something like that. Again, it requires every party’s mathematicians convince their party, head of their party, that this makes sense. At the moment, we’re not quite there." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Is this Social Innovation Lab part of your project?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It was started by you?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I’m technically in charge of the National Social Innovation Plan, yes." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "This compound here, it’s a very interesting place. I’ve never been inside this area before." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Lots of fun." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Yeah, lots of fun. Then when I came in through one of the gates, here, I was met by this odd sign..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "...it said art and political warfare." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right, because it used to be a headquarter of the air force. Literally, it’s political warfare, it is all the military drills, it is the command center." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I can’t read that Chinese character there, but it’s a very strong statement, political warfare." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s what it means." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "That’s what it means? Really, even in the original, too?" }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "It means propaganda." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Exactly. Propaganda and everything." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It was used for that?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, and before, in the Japanese rule, here was the industrial technical research facility. It has a very multilayered history." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "What’s going to be done with these buildings, and is there any plans for developing this?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, so in this part, the Social Innovation Lab, anyone who can say which sustainable goals that they’re working on, they can use this place for free, for their activities. It opens until 11:00 every night." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Every time, maybe if you go around around weekends and so on, sometimes you can see markets and like a bazaar kind of thing. You can always see it displaying one of the 17 goals. Our only requirement for people using here as coworking space, or holding events, is identifying which sustainable goals they’re working on." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the only requirement. We don’t charge them for money or anything like that. That’s the SI Lab. It’s optimized for sustainable goals. The rest of the TAF, it’s called the Contemporary Culture Lab, or the C-Lab." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They have Social Innovation as one of their pillars, but they also work on actually national memory. National memory people, digital art people, digital culture people, and so on, they are also there, and each one has a different building." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "In these?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you walk over there, you will see some national archive people, I think, working on the digital preservation and participatory culture. The whole point is that this place is not for the finished product of art or culture." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "This place is where creators create. You’re supposed to go here and participate in the making of the projects." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It seems like the art exhibition over here, too, was very unusual." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very participatory." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Exactly, that’s interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s the point." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "It’s great stuff. Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Feel free to tour around." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Geir Yeh Fotland", "speech": "I’m born in Taiwan, and my mother took a lot of photos from the 1950s. [quiet chatter] Maybe the National Library would like to have my slides." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I hope we can digitize it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow. That’s great. Feel free to join the National Memory Project." }, { "speaker": "Jing-Yue Yeh", "speech": "Many of the regional missionaries, they took also a lot of photos. The photos now are in Norway. The children and grandchildren don’t know what to do with it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just digitize it, and put it somewhere. Cool." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "About the digital memory archive, did you have any people in mind?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Yeah, I do, actually. The C-Lab people, they actually work as a kind of exhibition display space for the National History Memory. One of the people working on this plan, Ilya Eric Lee, we started working together in 2000, and with Shu Lea Cheang, the artist currently representing Taiwan in the next Vienna Biennial. In any case, we worked quite closely back in the early 2000s." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Ilya is now working with many of those visions, not just the C-Lab, but also the presentation of the National Memory or History, and so on. I am happy to make the introduction." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Shall we just do it on email?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Email works well. Feel free to just email me, anytime." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "I’ll do that. Thank you very much. I’ve been to a conference here." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s just fine." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Thank you very much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "All right, cheers. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Eivind Røssaak", "speech": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Geir Yeh Fotland", "speech": "Thank you. Is your T-shirt displaying the 17 global goals from United Nations?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常感謝今天大家報名過來跟我們在台北各部會的朋友一起就社會創新的議題進行討論，請投影我的螢幕，我們在這邊有一個QR code，大家看得到，已經有人說午安了，這個算是留言板，大家可以掃這個QR code，或者是連到sli.do的網站，然後輸入01218。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩個是一樣的，如果有QR code的話，就不用手動輸入號碼。我們有兩個會場，台北的社創中心跟台南這邊，最主要的是如果有講到一些補充資料、發言、問題及網址，用唸的可能沒有辦法那麼清楚，所以有任何的補充資料或問題，像我在拿麥克風的時候，也很歡迎直接往上提出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家在上面的發言，我們做逐字紀錄的時候，是相當於拿麥克風發言，就跟逐字紀錄一樣，今天會後會email給大家，大家在線上編修，可以加更多的補充資料，我們整理十個工作天之後就會全部公開，給下一場巡迴參考，這個是全部都接取。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等一下的議程就跟以前一樣，我們會請這邊的朋友們自我介紹，主要是知道您怎麼稱呼、代表的團體、這一次比較關心的事情，因為有很多朋友事前有提出想討論的案子了，我們等一下就會處理，巡迴完之後也會請台北的朋友們自我介紹，讓大家知道透過螢幕，也是見面三分情，今天處理到一個程度，之後就比較知道相關的中央部會朋友們如何繼續跟各位聯絡，並解決大家碰到的問題，這樣子之後就會回到事前提出來的書面提問並一項項處理，如果有時間的話，就看得到自我介紹的時候，關心的話題或者是臨時想要提出來討論的就提出討論，我也不耽擱時間，照例從我左邊開始傳麥克風，開始先講如何稱呼、在意的事情，下一次麥克風要傳給誰，就由拿麥克風的人決定，請老師先開始。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "唐委員，我是台南市私立長榮高級中學王昭卿，我來是不是可以建請修正《公教人員保險法》第20條第1項，有關於私立學校超額年金50％要由私立學校負擔之不合理現象，說明的理由是：" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "一，依據公教人員保險法之規定，自99年1月1日起私校退休人員符合資格者，可申請按月支領養老給付，公保養老給付的基金，年利率為0.75％，上限1.3％，超過0.75％部分為超額年金。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "二，依據公教人員保險法第20條第1項的規定，超額年金由政府及各級學校負擔50％，而且最後由服務的學校來負擔。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "三，相對於勞工保險、勞工退休後取得年金，並未要求最後就職單位之雇主須再支付部分年金費用。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "四，私立學校經費大部分來自於現有學生、學雜費收費，教職員退休以後，跟學校已經沒有跟職務相關，而且學校在養老年金之基本負擔相關的費用，其養老年金之超額年金部分應該是由政府編列經費支付。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "五，近年來因私校面對嚴重地少子化，科班招生情形非常艱困，班級數及學生數大幅減少，加上我們要鼓勵教職員的退休，年年累積鼓勵退休人數增加，私校的支付已經超額年金費用大幅提高，形成私校嚴重龐大地負擔，以本校為例，截至到107年度為止，本校每月須負擔超額年金退休人已有82人，每月須支付超額年金費用達到新臺幣29萬3048元，每年需支付超額年金費用近乎新臺幣360萬元，而且支付的超額年金繼續逐年增加當中，以我們學校到目前為止，九年已經超過了1600萬，這是非常龐大的負擔。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "六，老師的養成、經驗需要累積，而且學校也已聘請優秀老師來達到教學學子為最終目標，倘若限制最終學校負擔退休老師50％的超額年金，造成私校在聘用老師的時候，將年資列入考慮，而且會違反教育人員聘用之市場需求，並損害學子受教權。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "七，私立學校都是調漲學雜費，而且都遭到教育部與其他因素考量而凍漲，引發私立學校財政困難，收支難以平衡，更難以負擔每年繼續增長之超額年金的費用。" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "因此建請是否可以由主管機關跨部會來協調修正《公教人員保險法》第20條第1項有關私校超額年金50％由私校負擔之不合理現象，取消各級私立學校支付超額年金，以減輕私校龐大資金的負擔，保障學習學生的受教權，感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝校長。我想這裡建議的「主管機關」，應該是考試院的銓敘部。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在會前您有提出這個議題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "王昭卿", "speech": "我們私校都有提出，在校長會議，銓敘部給我們的回答是「尚屬合理」——也就是不合理，理應由社會來支應，哪裡是他在職時我提撥，現在他已經不在學校了，跟我的學校已經沒有終止關係了，為何還要付他的退休超額年金呢？大概全臺灣的社會企業裡面都沒有這樣子，惟獨私立學校，感謝唐委員。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。書面的部分麻煩再email提供。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "台北的朋友是如果十天前報名時，已經有明確講出部會的話，我們是會試著去約，銓敘部不是行政院轄下單位，我們這邊可以約到的是人事行政總處。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我看了一下，人總之前沒有收到這一份提案，所以人總這一次沒有來，我們作業上也是可能需要一點時間，可能我們先把這個列入紀錄，之後要請人總或是銓敘部的朋友們來回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為通常的作業方法，是事前有提出來、我們會把相關的同仁約到台北，但是事前沒有收到。或者是您有事前提出，但是是我們作業的問題，我們在這邊跟您致歉，事實上沒有約到人總或者是銓敘部的朋友，所以今天這一案不一定可以做實質討論。真的很不好意思，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "各位大家好，我是來自台南佳里漳州社區，我們做社區產業其實是第一年而已，我們能被推動到做社會企業，因為我們有很大的社會福利的基礎在，所以在社區產業的部分，今年第一年的推動，績效比較明顯，但是在勞動部的部分也給我們很大的肯定，我們一開始加入這個平台的時候，我們是幼幼班的孩子，並不是很熟悉。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "我們提問兩個問題的部分，其實我們都已經得到了解答，因為我們的問題也比較少一點。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "比較大的問題是在第二個，也就是社會福利的部分，因為衛福部之前可能年終到9月時，有很多的政策在擺動，因此這一個部分會擔心明年的進度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天台北有衛福部的朋友，可以就這一個問題來討論。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "各位好，我是臺灣璞育文教發展協會黃雅聖，因為我有推薦一些青年夥伴到新創圓夢網看一些資訊來作一些參考，大多數會出現一些問題，他們想要找的資源可能上面沒有辦法有效率找得到，或是覺得裡面的東西可能很多，但可能在使用上比較不得其門而入，因此我大概整理了幾個問題，我們底下是由經濟部中小企業處回答大多數的問題。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "我們滿期待108年改版作業之後，資訊上可以更加地讓大家在使用上比較方便一點，如果等一下有一些其他的問題，我們會再做討論與提出，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個改版也不會悶著頭改版，會跟大家一起做事。謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "我是台南市以恩關懷協會，主要是在做社會關懷的工作。這一次主要是從社會福單位轉型到社會企業的稅務，我們知道現在有幾個成功的案例，但是相對在能量上都比較足夠一點，對於我們這一種小型地區型的社福單位，是不是可以在還沒有社會企業這一塊之前，因為我們還沒有失敗的本錢，是不是可以讓我們有更多可以知道，相關的稅務要做哪一些準備，自己的服務內容如果發展到成熟的時候，就水到渠成促成美事，就可以讓協會做到這一個部分的工作。" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "在來參加之前有接到幾通電話，有關於工作人員給我們的回覆，我知道有一個叫做社會創新圓夢網，如果社福單位還沒有轉型到社會企業時，可以把相關的產品丟上去，公部門有這樣的需求可以做聯繫，其實這幾通電話裡面我得到這個資訊，其實我們可以再上去看一下，也讓公部門知道其實我們在這一條路、這個方向上都有持續前進與努力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們等一下到第四案的時候再詳細討論目前現有的產品或服務，或者未來想要的產品或者是服務，可能要按照那個本身的價值再來做規劃。" }, { "speaker": "李秀蘭", "speech": "大家好，我們是同一個單位，以恩關懷協會，我是秘書長李秀蘭，這是第二次參加這樣的研討會，我們去年到嘉義去，我們希望能夠在這一個議題上可以更清楚認知，才知道如何配合，雖然我們是做兒童工作，孩子會長大成青少年，希望在未來的引導上可以更具體，包括婦女的產業，這是我們來的目的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "大家好，我是萬里環保的曾彥翔，很感謝唐委員給我們這樣的機會以反映我們的問題，我們公司主要是以社群跟社區的方式提供綠生活的服務，我們目前綠生活的服務有幾個項目，一個是有機蔬菜的宅配、一個是有機餐飲、一個是資源回收、一個是二手物品的流通。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "經營社會企業以企業為名，當然就是以營利要賺錢，是一個賺錢的單位。經營企業的話，社會需要資金，也會有融資的需求，目前來講以社會企業來說，著重的並不是單純的獲利或者是把獲利極大化，第一個優先的順序應該是解決社會的問題，第二個才是考慮到獲利的部分。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "社會企業相較於其他的企業，獲利的能力會比較差一點，但還是需要有資金的需求。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "金管會跟中小企業處有提出一些授信辦法，以中小企業處為例，加強投資中小企業實施方案的投資比例，也就是專業投管公司、投資，從一般公司的1比1提升到3比1，願意投資社會企業，才願意獲得這樣的方案。投管公司若覺得投資社會企業獲利比較弱，基本上還是很難申請到這個實施方案。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "第二個是融資，像依契約的認證或者是登記社會創新企業，假設已經登記了，但是基本上能不能申請貸款的決定權還是在銀行，銀行認為財報不夠漂亮、報表不夠好看，認為願意不選擇貸款，還是沒有用，政府有幫助，但是這一些投管公司或者是銀行，他們並不想冒這個風險，基本上是政府把分擔風險的比例提高了，如果沒有意願的話，還是沒有辦法取得這方面的協助，這個是目前現況的反映，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳峰智", "speech": "大家好，我是高雄市杉林大愛縫紉生產合作社的行銷專管，我們是莫拉克風災之後，婦女所組成的合作社，目前主要是以代工為主，基本上都跟臺灣的設計師或一些設計公司、企業禮贈品合作，我們的問題其實在書面上已經回覆滿詳細了，等一下我們在討論時再作補充說明。" }, { "speaker": "古瑞婷", "speech": "大家好，我也是大愛縫紉生產合作社，很感謝這次再來參加。我們這一次來跟上次的主軸不一樣，因為每一次來都有新的收獲，因此很希望在這次能夠有期許，杉林是一個偏鄉的地方，我們目前已經達到產量，可是有產量的時候需要有人，有人必須要有培訓，因此才想到是不是要往機具的地方增加，幫忙旗山、偏鄉的婦女能夠謀求穩定、安身立命的工作，這是今天來的目的，等一下稍候在討論時，會將我們的論點再跟委員報告，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳書瑀", "speech": "大家好，我是昕樸永續股份有限公司，我們主要是做冰淇淋，來探討臺灣的環境議題。" }, { "speaker": "吳書瑀", "speech": "因為農委會剛通過農產品生產及驗證的管理方法，因為在網路上搜尋到的資料滿有限的，因此希望在這裡可以獲得一些解答，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "大家好，我是翁裕峰，成功大學社會科學研究中心研究員，最主要是一個議題，但底下有三個小子題互相關聯，我先講第一個，先前不知道這整個巡迴座談進行的方式與回應狀況怎麼樣，第一次來參加的菜鳥。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "在整個臺灣政策執行的過程中，現在有滿多的計畫都是透過委託招標的方式在執行公部門各式各樣的政策，最基層的地方組織，其實經常是最主要的政策執行角色，其中可以看到有一個部分是社區發展協會在負責，形成基層跟政府組織之間的協力。社區發展協會在執行這一些相關業務的過程（例如水保局的農業再生計畫、勞動部人力發展署的多元就業等），會碰到一些問題，我先簡單講一下，如果要讓各式各樣不同的最基層執行組織、跟政府協力，並能夠達到原來政策希望達到效果的話，有沒有可能思考改變目前整個政府資源在配置過程中的資源整合方式，不能把執行資源整合的責任、工作，有意或無意地放在這些基層執行組織的肩膀上。根據我們過去在鄉村社區參與協力的經驗，有幾個改變的方式，能促進在地基層組織更有能力與能量，恰當地執行所申請或受委託的政策方案。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "第一種，能不能訓練我們的公務員或者是其他有意願的中間人，成為一種溝通協調的專業者，在這些基層組織與政府組織、甚至是民間組織之間，協助進行資源整合這一類的工作？這會跟什麼有關？跟政策能否具體落實在鄉村交通不便、中高齡人口多的小區域有關。舉一個例子，我們在台南的鄉村跟社區一起搭配、協力並做教育、高齡、社區經濟等發展工作，這個區域居住的狀況跟多數區域的居住狀況是不太一樣的，一般而言，在市區、郊區及鄉村，通常會好幾戶，或是幾十戶形成一個居住區域，但是在淺山地區裡面，例如台南的東山、左鎮或其他的行政區，有些地方是雖然有3G的基礎設施，但如果真的要能夠做到比較適當的溝通聯繫，其實實體差異狀況的了解是重要的，特別是對中高齡以上的居民來說，還不是3G這一種時代的人，已經屬於3G這一世代的人，未來不會有這樣的問題，但目前這一段時間，對淺山地區的居民來說，是有滿大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "再加上能夠在這一類區域裡面參與發展或者工作的人，大部分是年紀比較大的長輩，他們對於資訊科技使用並不是那麼熟悉，而在裡面一起工作的年輕人口並不多。這時，面對教育資源太少，如何把資源帶進來，增加與促進在地學童成長的學習，需要有這種溝通協調者。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "第二，當地的高齡人口比較多，有些是臺灣第一名或第二名或第三名之類的，像這種區域要做到高齡照護或是延緩老化的活動，也是需要有人，很大一部分是要透過政府資源進來。目前長照2.0的ABC雖然要求A或B級要為C級單位進行行政支援，類似前述的中間人角色（參見第10、13頁）。但是到了沒有人願意設A與B單位的區域，例如左鎮，既有的執行政策人力問題沒有解決。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "第三，在地當然也有生存的需求，所以需要把它的農作物進行行銷。問題目前通常會看到的是，不同的特性就會有不同的方案，不同的方案就會有不同的計畫，一個社區面臨這三個問題，可能就要寫三個不同的計畫，例如高齡、社區產業、文化保存。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "三個不同計畫完之後核銷，擠在每一個年度的同一個時間，能夠做事情不會超過三個，可是要照顧的人口，一方面是在地的農友，一方面是在地的中高齡的阿公、阿媽，再來可能會跟當地的小朋友生活照顧學習等也有關係。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "當在地村落是散居的狀態，一個執行政策的基層組織要同時以三個以上的政策去照顧這麼多人，就會碰到如何把前面所講的資源整合在一起的挑戰。條件比較好的話，或許有可能可以做一點整合，但是這些事，不應該以目前這樣的方式，全部落在像社區發展協會這類人力不足的小組織身上，而是從中央到地方，需要有一種體系性的的人力庫，扮演中間資源整合的角色，跟在地的人進行討論、整合、解決問題與執行計畫。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "我們過去看到參與社區第一線的人，負責這麼多事。成功大學透過<<人文創新與社會實踐計畫>>一起協力的過程中，看到有些資源不足，及其背後缺乏上述中間資源溝通整合協調人力的問題。資源不足到什麼程度？比如對於高齡照顧的部分，我們參與的社區，來關懷據點的30多位長輩們需要有交通接駁，以往沒有接駁時，來到據點活動的人頂多5位，發展協會想了一個辦法，就是募集一部車，自2014年底開始，至2017年2月，社區自籌購買一部廂型2手交通車之後，參與的長輩人數增加至18位，一年後增加到目前的34位。去年每一個禮拜一次，狀況不錯，所以今年變成兩次。他們大多還沒有達到失能，因此在關懷據點主要是進行延緩失能的活動，包含有唱跳內涵的體適能、認知維持的手工藝等。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "這樣的照顧活動，交通部分，社區發展協會每次都請返鄉青年開這部廂型車來回三條路線，總計75公里3小時的路程，搭載有需要接送的長輩，一次是三趟，載來關懷據點一次、載回去長輩家一次，這樣子加起來，每一次關懷據點只要一開門，就是要花來回三個小時，來回等於是開車六次。他們沒有薪水。車輛維修、油資、保險等都是由社區發展協會支付。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "即使社區發展會能夠依照延緩失能計畫申請到補助，也沒有這些費用交通必要的費用，只有講師有交通費，似乎沒有前述搭載長輩們所需的車輛維護、油資、保險等的明確支出項目（參見衛生福利部107年度「預防及延緩失能照護計畫」申請作業須知）。因為在山區當中，大家住得很散，光講每一趟都要70公里來回，一次就是要三個小時的交通，每週兩次的據點服務，一年需要支出的費用大約是30,384元。衛福部透過關懷據點補助的經費不僅不足，也無法支應這樣的項目。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "即使目前長照C站的活動項目已經增加到預防失能，而且可以跟關懷據點結合。但是在沒有A級與B級單位的情況下，社區發展協會就算申請成為C級單位，因為沒有A與B這種上游的協力結盟，就沒有車輛跟預算可以使用。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "社區很厲害、很能幹，把各種部門的資源組在一起，但是大家沒有辦法支付像有關於交通的部分。所以，他們做社區經濟的部分，發展產業，以微薄的收入來做因應。這是目前長照制度需要回應淺山地區交通不便，又缺乏A級與B級服務單位的地方。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "另外，有關於核銷的部分所耗費的人力，所以在地組織有很多，他們不希望跟政府有預算上的瓜葛，雖然他們有需要，但是不希望，光是耗在這一些核銷過程中的人力就佔掉一大半的時間。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "再來，我剛剛講了如果有一個類似中間的人力，可以大大降低實質第一線作業者的效力，為什麼會這樣想？有發生過幾個不同的案例，像這一些案例很明顯，大家都很清楚告訴我們這一件事，健保署在這樣的公開場合，聽到社區這邊在高齡及健康服務這一個部分的需求，在社區早期是有衛生室在服務，可是因為人口越來越少之後，整個政府經營管理的思維不夠經濟規模就關掉了，因此衛生所的相關人員都不在了，也沒有診所，因此有健保卡看不到醫生的情況之下，健保署是用巡迴醫療來做補充。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "事實上這個巡迴醫療在工作的社區是比較不足的，剛剛講散居的狀況，年紀大的要出來，不方便，因此反映之後，健保署的科長滿積極的，把手上的案子跟他現有的資料核對以後，發現的確在這一個行政區，完全都沒有診所，在北半邊有衛生所、診所，在南半邊完全都沒有，所以剛好有機會有診所要來開，因此就請社區的相關人員能夠表達這一個部分的看法與需求。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "因為那個是很意外的場合去碰到，如果沒有那個場合，也碰不到，一般人也不曉得要透過什麼管道來談這一些問題，而且是整理性來談。因此透過這樣的案例，可以知道診所中間的公務員應該是滿重要的，而且在臺灣未來的發展上，我們的經驗看到的是，應該是有幫助。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "另外一個意思是，運作能夠從5到30幾個，在地年輕人願意留下來，還有組織力的社區在這裡以外，還有一個是專業的衛生服務工作者，我們有一位是護理師在現場兼任，是透過我們的計畫在縣府兼任，扮演的角色是了解阿公、阿媽的身體變化，搭配社區、安排設計的活動，再加上成大的主任幫忙做這一些資料履歷，還有提供一些建議，跟專業護理師間來作資訊的交換。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "這樣的組合我們目前看到的是，老人家的體重、BMI指數有上來，上來的比例大概多了一半，上來的指數根據張醫師的專業判斷，他認為這個對老人家是好的，因為BIM值增加，特別如果過重的話，壽命這一個部分是會有正面的影響。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "可是這樣的setting其實是靠五種不同的政府計畫，再加上兩個或者是三個年輕人，其中一個年輕人是沒有辦法在這邊得到任何的事情，古蹟跟國家的計畫進來，為什麼呢？現場最大的困境是，當我們落到這麼小的範圍時，你限定幾等親能夠來組織裡面接任什麼樣的工作，這還可以；但是縮小到0的時候，而且是在鄉鎮，並不是在市區，但是在鄉村不好找工作的情況之下，就需要有人力進來。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "我們這時又希望返鄉青年回來，這樣就矛盾了，這樣沒有辦法拿薪水，做了很多事，像我們兩年下來的結果，其實很清楚，但是卻不能拿薪水，這個是非常不合理的，不管是多元就業計畫或者其他政府部門的資源進來。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "如果要改變臺灣，到最後卻是摧毀了年輕人對國家的信心，這個是非常可惜的，因此中間的人力要如何去設計，另外一個是當到了非常小的區域時國家計畫可以聘用的規定，是不是有可能用其他的方式來驗證，確保並不是在圖利特定的親朋好友？這個是值得去思考、做的。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "我們至少在這幾年，不敢說有一個非常完美的系統去辨認，但是我們有一些方法可以來面對這樣特定案例時去形成一個政府可以作為location的process。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "再來，有關於交通的部分，沒有補助，是不是可以按照當地的狀況來進行一些必要款項的給付，這一些方法因為過去都是希望要有一個所謂的統一標準，但是這一種統一標準，其實並沒有注意到不同區域的差別，這一些不同區域的差別是需要能夠進行第三方驗證的方式，來確保這一些資源進到這些地方之後，不會被僱用，這大概是我們看到整個狀況與期待，不管是在衛福部或者是勞動部的多元就業，又或者是原民會的部落計畫又或者是文化部文化局有關於社造的部分，像水保局的計畫進到這裡來的時候，都會面臨剛剛所講的這一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "這幾個不同的計畫到了區域性小地方時，其實是整個系統性的結合在一起，所以不能切割老年就是老年的、教育就是教育的，是沒有辦法的，是需要中間的人力。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝老師。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛講的是不能聘用現任理監事作為會務工作人員，也不能聘用配偶及三等血親、姻親的規定，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那我們繼續傳麥克風，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "鄒佾倩", "speech": "你好，我們是貫金食品股份有限公司，我們主要是在台南仁德區，我們是做飲料，主要輔佐的是臺灣在地的小農，主要有一些食材生產過剩，我們製作成禮品。" }, { "speaker": "鄒佾倩", "speech": "我們還有參加國內外的展覽，我們是以代工起家，主要是幫助臺灣在地小農，這個是我們自己的自有品牌，將臺灣在地的禮品外銷到國外，在展覽的過程中，可以將臺灣的食材成飲品，銷售到國外，讓國外看見臺灣，我們主要是做純天然、無添加的香料防腐劑等等，我們目前是朝向希望能夠尋找一些對象，並且宣揚臺灣在地的食材，今天是第一次來參加，因此從中獲取一些經驗與分享。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "大家好，我是山海原設計公司的負責人，主要公司業務是在地方相關整合與統合事務，我們今天是第一次來參與，所以不太曉得這一些狀況，有幾個問題想要在這裡討論。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "第一，有關於官方地方創生相關政策，我們在11月30日國發會將簡報釋出之後，有更多地方創生相關的業務有出來，但是在實際第一線的操作人員看起來還是非常普通，只有一些很大方向的戰略，像人口回流的相關戰略，又或者是公務人員如果又調回來相關政策，又或者是以區公所來作為窗口的案子之相關內容。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "細節上都還不是很明確，因為東山算是在146個地區。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。請馬克投影一下，不一定大家都看過那個簡報，這邊講的是這個。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "因為這一份簡報的緣故，我們最近有開始跟區公所、農會、在地組織一起談，並且要共同寫一個計畫，裡面有考慮提到很多操作細節，區公所最在意的是經費核銷會不會經過他那一關，因為會認為在地方執行、地方創生計畫時，很多計畫的經費，區公所本身在第一線承辦會覺得有這樣的困難。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看到這幾個字，覺得不一定做得好？" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "他們其實很怕，尤其下面的承辦會更怕，我們知道國發會很希望公所裡面學習日本地方創生整體的思維，但依在地第一線現場的狀況，公所並不是那麼認為，再者是他們認為有這樣的心，但是在實務的操作及能力上沒有辦法……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "尤其中央的公務人員還沒有調回公所，雖然這樣講，但還沒有發生。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "這個是細節，這裡面包含裡面所談的地方創生事業所指何事？因為我們有問過曾副主委及相關的問題，他說沒有限定，也沒有預算編列的好處，簡單來說是提出一個綱要性的計畫大方向，然後在各個部會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是單一窗口，就是老師所講的，也就是行政作業的方式改變，並不是變出新的計畫來。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "是，包括前端區公所會認為校方有意要執行的單位，會有很多類似這樣的狀況，這個可能也是想說再細部討論。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "那裡面還有牽涉到一些，可能包括像國土計畫相關的操作，我們打算其中一個廢校相關作為地方基地的改造，但是會受限於相關的地目、操作及相關的問題，這個是一個。" }, { "speaker": "佘岡祐", "speech": "第二個是像活化文化資產或運用，也是同樣會涉及到不論是地目變更或者是投入，非商業利用的用途問題，還有代社區問一下好了，其實跟剛剛所提到的一樣，因為衛福部在長照2.0相關的政策上，一直是在做滾動修正的階段，因此社區那一個協會，一直有跟他們反映，他們不知道政策走向到底確切是怎麼樣，因為他們最怕的是先做了，然後經費沒有跟上或者這一些資源沒有跟上，然後就會覺得這樣子會造成很多的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。我們有朋友在台北，等一下可以討論，我們繼續傳麥克風。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "大家好，我是透南風工作室的龍君，原本我有兩位同事一起來，但是因為年底，我從佳里騎車過來（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "我第一次參加這個座談會，請大家多多指教。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "我們自己在文化部是有接這個案子在做，我自己有陪伴兩個社區，我自己想說如果沒有這樣的機會，等於我的薪資由政府可以補助我，如果跑兩個社區，那時我的計畫沒有想太多，真的就是跑兩個社區，一個是菁寮、一個是龍山。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "對我來講是要兩邊跑，但是我們的時間其實是一樣的，我也有想過在操作的時候，就會覺得計畫一年、一年的時間性，有時就真的忙到這裡，然後就再另外開始，報告書都是一年、一年的，我會覺得那個延續性常常被打斷。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "我們要跑社區，跟老人家一起活動、帶他們出來，要考慮他們實際生活面的時間點，一邊喊，跑的時間不一樣，我們也會要派他們去，像他們要去七股，我們也要找時間跟。有時一年當中，其實這一個過程很快，跟他們相處要有一段時間，社區的人會很急著想要知道一些能夠趕快看到的東西，因為以前的習慣跟計畫就是也會很急，想要趕快、要有目的。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "我覺得這個也是滿不錯的，所以我覺得在做社造的部分，真的需要很常的時間一起try。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "我剛剛講的延續性，我會覺得是因為我自己在這一年接這個工作，像我們遇到颱風的時候，多少都會辦活動，這一個時間點常常會受到影響。有時是年初，那時還是要提計畫修正，但是年初那一段時間也是可以做事的，往往真正可以辦活動的時間會卡在某一個月份。但是有時，像我們做一些特殊產業、小旅行有不同的時間點，好像常常會因為時間性、去頭去尾之類的，就只有中間的時間可以做。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "我會覺得是那個延續性，這比較難。雖然我覺得文化部小旅行已經沒有很複雜了，因為以前我做過水保局的核銷，那個很想哭，我先分享到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "## 唐鳳：" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "一般獎助都比補助容易，以銷來講。大學USR跟地方了解到彼此的需求，全部加起來是要五年的時間，沒有五年的時間，大概沒有辦法做到很深入。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "他們會像改選或者是前陣子里長……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，就是要跟各派都要有一定的交情，沒有五年大概做不到。像USR是兩年管考一次，然後再三年，其實是2＋3，這樣比較有可能在年初進行操作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們對每一個部會，都是盡可能讓大家看到彼此做得好的部分，像文化部核銷容易，是被大家稱讚的。" }, { "speaker": "盧龍君", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "唐鳳政委、各位大家夥伴、大家好，我剛剛換了名片以後，我是唯一的嘉義人，因為我們是旅館業，在新港廟口那邊有成立一間旅館，我們今年有申請經濟部中小企業處的SBTR的計畫，因此我們也帶頭做了很多地方創生議題。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "我們跟嘉雁協會就四季春紅的部分有一些合作，我們提出一些正在做的，有關於社區小旅行，其實大家要看報導，都是法規的問題，還有一些旅行社會檢舉杯葛的問題，這一塊在社區小旅行的發展上是很大的問題點。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "因為我們在講地方創生、社會企業的部分，我們都需要有營業額，可能再回饋到社區做永續發展，但這一塊很容易被檢舉就做不下去。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "我先講嘉義的解決方式可以給大家參考，我們目前來講，我們會找地區的育成中心或一些社會企業來當作平台，他來整合我們地方在做地方小旅行的一些需求，像我們會把一些計畫提給他們，讓他們來做一些規劃，我們會請在地的旅行社來作顧問，可能給他們一些顧問費。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "顧問的內容是旅遊品質、交通工具的部分，還有保險及食宿等相關的問題，這一個部分讓他們品管，然後我們就在計畫當中寫到一部分的費用，這一部分也造成我們現在小旅行其實可以上架到旅行社的官網上，不會產生被檢舉問題，一來旅行社本身也可以抽到一些利潤。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "我當時問過他們的問題了，因為他們沒有利潤，為何要檢舉？也不會影響到，因為有些都是做其他的業務，他們覺得不檢舉，保證金就白繳了，他們要繳保證金，我問他們要不要接地方小旅行來做，他們說不要，覺得很麻煩，我覺得大家朝這個方向去想的話，如果可以收到一些顧問費，就可以補保證金給他們，所以旅行社還滿希望的。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "我跟旅行社談的過程中，我覺得規劃小旅行覺得還不錯，他們也可以做，如果做一些內容可以推薦給國外的旅客，這個是互惠的方式，嘉義是朝這個方向去進行。新港合作的是嘉義大學，是有成立一個叫做嘉義創的公司，我覺得大家會朝這個方向努力。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "行政院明年政策方向，社區小旅行跟行動支付，我們在鄉村推廣行動支付的時候會遇到一個問題點，像我們有一些在地的小農團隊、社區發展協會，他們想要申請行動支付，但是問題點是他們並不是企業，他們統編、有稅籍，他們可以開戶，但是不能申請，他們一直希望可以解決這一些問題，因為這個協會如果有這個社區發展，出去參展跟辦活動，希望參加希望廣場或者是展售會，這個錢就變成收入，也就是用小農的個人戶去申請，小農再轉到協會去，很奇怪，所以他們想要用協會的方式去開會、做申請，錢就直接進協會，然後協會再抽％之後再去做參展的小農，這個方向是對的，但是行動支付這一塊不能解決，因此新港這一塊滿多協會希望有這一方面解決的方式。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "有關於地方創生的部分，我們參加中小企業處的計畫，希望可以慢慢變成地方創生的部分，因此希望地方創生的部分像唐鳳政委提到五年的時間，看看這一塊是不是可以增加預算？因為聽到很多是地方創生這一塊預算上好像逐年減少的感覺，像深耕或者是學習平台是很重要的，因為在嘉義區其實過了滿多，包含東石有一件，新港有兩件，一件是單一的，另外一件是我們這一件。" }, { "speaker": "許齌贍", "speech": "在嘉義市也有，其他附近的縣市也是有很多給SBTR的部分，因此我們其實希望的是可以互相做參訪或者是交流的平台，這個平台是希望中小企業處這邊是否可以建立起來，然後讓我們做互訪的動作，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，非常清楚。" }, { "speaker": "陳耀武", "speech": "唐政委好，大家午安，我是住最近的新樓儲蓄互助社的理事長，也是中華民國儲蓄互助協會的常務理事，我們在一個禮拜之前，協會才通知我要報名，因此我跟王校長來不及把提問送過來，這個是先跟大家致歉。" }, { "speaker": "陳耀武", "speech": "我們現在在鄉村的互助社面臨到的問題，因為互助社有大、有小，全臺灣325個社，可以說遍布在臺灣山地、都市的小水庫，只要社員每一個月定期存款100元就可以了，這一些錢存起來，累積越多就可以幫助社會上的弱勢團體，或者是欠缺生活改善的資金來創業。" }, { "speaker": "陳耀武", "speech": "都市的問題，我們等一下會再說，但是先提一個鄉村面臨的問題，社員當中有的是農民身分，來作貸款，第一個問題是你們互助社的利息比較高，我跟農會貸款比較便宜，問題在於農委會有編預算補助給農會貸款的補貼，互助社不能跟內政部說比照辦理，因此這個變成是他們的困擾，他們變成在這一種競爭之下，因為都在一個農村當中都會碰到，所以這等於是他們的困境，我希望在這邊提出來，看看有沒有什麼辦法幫助他們，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "大家好，我是經濟部中小企業處鍾宜珊，經濟部在社會創新行動方案擔任幕僚的角色，也是一個窗口，今天其實很高興看到大家事前的提問，像對於Buying Power或者是新創圓夢網都有很好的表示，表示有人在看、利用，很開心認識大家，希望大家多多討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來，請台北分場主持人傳一下麥克風。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "台北的朋友，麻煩說一下您的稱呼、單位，如果剛才有聽到任何已經可以初步回答的，那就麻煩簡短回答，請。" }, { "speaker": "康廷嶽", "speech": "我是今天的分場主持人，是中企處的團隊，今天台北場有十三個單位參與這一次討論，中企處有特別邀請圓夢網的團隊，接下來請各位單位來作介紹，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "薛凱帆", "speech": "大家好，我是經濟部中小企業處薛凱帆，以前我承辦的業務是OTOP及地方特生產業的推廣，像OTOP相關的議題，如果我可以回答就會現場回答，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃玉鈴", "speech": "政委好、各位與會代表大家好，我是中小企業處財務融通組黃玉鈴，我想針對提案第五題有關於環保事業有限公司的曾負責人提的問題，先補充說明。" }, { "speaker": "黃玉鈴", "speech": "有關於針對社會創新企業資金取得這一塊，我們裡面不管有投資、融資的相關優惠方案，負責人那邊提到有關於頭款公司意願的部分，因為我們處裡面有二十一家搭配加強投資中小企業投資方案，我們之後若有遇到頭款公司投資意願問題時，也希望跟我們處這邊來反映，我們有二十一家，不至於二十一家對投資意願都有遇到相同的問題，我們希望可以來協調，是不是可以協尋有其他合適的投管公司來辦理。" }, { "speaker": "黃玉鈴", "speech": "有關於銀行投資意願的部分，因為我們處裡面是信保基金的主管機關，也針對企業擔保品不足的部分，有提供信保基金八至九成的融資保證，銀行的投資意願是不是可以請銀行的主管機關金管會幫忙，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王麗惠", "speech": "大家好，我是金管會銀行局王麗惠，有關於辦理授信的部分，這個是銀行經營自主的範圍，我們尊重銀行的風險評估，如果有特定目的事業主管機關推出專案貸款，這個部分會請銀行來作一些評估，決定是否應該要辦理。" }, { "speaker": "王麗惠", "speech": "針對中小企業處發展專案貸款的要點，中小企業處這邊也有訂定一些相關的規定，銀行經評估之後，如果願意參加就會承作這個貸款，有關於風險管理的部分，基本上還是要尊重銀行的評估，以上。" }, { "speaker": "周世豐", "speech": "政委、台南各位先進大家好，我是青創會周世豐，也是經濟部中小企業處新創圓夢網負責維運的代表，剛剛也聽到很多先進對於圓夢網的建議與指教，圓夢網當然有很多精進與優化的部分，我們在這一段時間持續跟經濟部中小企業處討論與努力，希望圓夢網不只是提供創新創業的資訊外，在社創這一個領域也非常樂意把各位的一些成果及各位希望達到的一些目標可以在我們網站上來做呈現，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "劉慧君", "speech": "政委、各位先進大家好，我是行政院公共工程委員會企劃處劉慧君。" }, { "speaker": "呂羿潔", "speech": "政委、大家好，我是教育部青年發展署呂羿潔，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "沙韻雯", "speech": "大家好，我是原住民族委員會經濟發展處沙韻雯。" }, { "speaker": "謝麗珍", "speech": "政委、台南的各位業者及先進大家午安，我是經濟部國際貿易局發展組謝麗珍，很高興跟大家會面。" }, { "speaker": "謝麗珍", "speech": "貿易局主要協助業者拓展海外市場，今天參加這個會議，主要是高雄市杉林大愛縫紉生產合作社希望協助增加當地婦工作機會，需要二手縫紉機，請經濟部聯繫拓會是不是有相關的業者可以提供相關的設備。" }, { "speaker": "謝麗珍", "speech": "簡單的回應資料在資料上都有，根據我們初步聯繫紡拓會的結果，現在有新光紡織及聚紡兩家公司以往曾使用該等設備來從事生產，目前這一些縫紉機設備暫時閒置，因此如果合作社希望能夠利用這一些設備的話，也很樂意提供。" }, { "speaker": "謝麗珍", "speech": "至於是要用接收或者是用購買的方式，我們已將相關聯繫的窗口及電話提供給中小企業處，歡迎合作社洽該處，我們也很希望見到這一些設備能夠再活用與運用，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林國清", "speech": "政委、大家好，我是中小企業處目前OTOP目前的執行單位，目前出席這個座談會，最主要是針對大愛縫紉生產合作社有提到產品通路的部分，我們配合中小企業處經營輔導組這邊，針對政策執行外，如果有針對市場的部分來做協助、資訊提供，以上。" }, { "speaker": "劉雅文", "speech": "政委、各位台南的夥伴、嘉義夥伴大家好，我是衛福部長照司，我這邊簡單回應一下漳州社區發展協會蘇里長的提問，蘇里長有提到社區關懷據點很多年了，為何還是設定在新增型，並不是延續性，我們這邊說明，所謂新增跟延續是跟著這個「預防及延緩失能照護計畫」計畫，針對這個計畫來講是一個新的單位。" }, { "speaker": "劉雅文", "speech": "但是也請里長不用擔心，因為從108年開始，不管是C據點或者是社區關懷據點都會統整，因此只要看長照服務發展基金108年度一般性獎助經費補助基準。在衛福部的網站可以看到也可以下載補助辦法，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "葉良琪", "speech": "政委好，大家好，我是勞動部勞動力發展署副主任葉良琪。剛剛針對有限責任高雄市杉林大愛縫紉生產合作社的提問，因為他們有做書面詢問，我們在書面上已經有答覆了，簡單來說，我們有協助一些訓練諮詢費用及行銷的資源，可以參閱我們的書面說明。" }, { "speaker": "葉良琪", "speech": "另外，在成功大學這邊有提到我們多元就業開發方案的補助，有限制三親等進用的狀況，這個計畫訂定的時候，本來就是要協助在地的失業者就業，在計畫的公平性上，也有聽取大家的聲音，因此在計畫的規定，基本上是不以理事長等等這一些相關領導幹部之配偶或三親等內血親姻親來作為進用的對象，但是我們其實也考慮到翁老師所說的狀況，像原住民偏鄉或者是非常偏遠的地區，人口真的非常非常地少，在這一種狀況下，其實我們的規定也有一個但書，如果在地區失業者數量不足時，勞動力發展署的分署會辦理一個專案的推介，所以其實在這一種特殊狀況，於相關規定當中，已納入考量，而且可以彈性處理，以上說明，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳筱薇", "speech": "大家好，我是勞動力發展署同仁吳筱薇。" }, { "speaker": "陳言博", "speech": "政委好，各位社創的朋友大家好，我是經濟部商業司陳言博，很高興在這邊跟大家見面。各位手上都有拿到紅色的折頁，這個是我們做政令宣導，主要是公司法本次修正其中有一部分是配合國家推動洗錢防制政策而修正，主要是要加強公司法人的透明度。除少數可以不用申報的例外，目前是規定原則所有的公司都要申報，不管是不是社會企業，只要是公司型態就要申報。" }, { "speaker": "陳言博", "speech": "這個申報採取全面網路的電子化申報，而且系統操作也非常簡單，各位看一下相關資料，應該很快就可以上手，完成申報。另根據今天的資料，今天與會有六至七家公司型社會企業代表，因此請你們要注意折頁的內容，如果有任何的問題，翻到折頁後面有QR code，手機一掃就可以進去，可以直接進到申報系統的網頁。上面有相關詳細說明及操作流程，可以參考。另折頁背面也有免付費的專線，若有任何問題，麻煩你們致電該專線或撥打至經濟部詢問，謝謝各位。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，這一次只有商業司有工商服務。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "請繼續。" }, { "speaker": "葉懷仁", "speech": "政委好，大家好，我是國發基金葉懷仁，針對萬里環保事業公司提出的部分，中小企業處已經有回應，我們看書面，國發基金也有提出回應，也就是有創業天使投資方案、加強中小企業的實施方案，這兩個方案可以提供業者來申請。" }, { "speaker": "葉懷仁", "speech": "因為國發基金如果依一般審查程序的話，我們這邊本身的審查程序是比較複雜，而且非常緩慢、嚴謹一點，我們為了顧慮到比較小的投資要有彈性跟效率，因此就增加了這兩個方案來提供業者申請。" }, { "speaker": "葉懷仁", "speech": "加強中小企業實施方案，也就是中小企業處提出的方案，執行的單位是中小企業處，因此必須要跟中小企業處來申請。" }, { "speaker": "葉懷仁", "speech": "如果是創業天使投資方案的話，單位是中華民國創業投資公會，因此必須要向他們提出申請，這兩個方案可以由業者來選擇，看看是要向哪一邊來申請，如果想要比較了解創業天使或是加強投資中小企業實施方案內容的話，在國發基金外網上就可以看得到，我先提到這裡，如果有問題可以再提出，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會企劃處，因為昕樸永續股份有限公司執行長對於有關農產品初級加工廠納入管理範圍的細節很關切，本會也有提供一些相關的資料，請參酌。其實農產品加工廠我們希望把生產跟初級加工可以一元化管理，研訂農產品初級加工場管理辦法草案，其主要內容有使用的原料為國產溯源的農產品，生產人本身必須要是農民，有關於相關的建築必須符合農業用地許可使用的農業設施。" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "另外，還有包括一些從乾燥、粉碎、碾製及焙炒等等加工制作的加工品項，都會列在這個草案當中。為順利推動初級加工場管理辦法草案，所以農產品生產及驗證管理辦法必須要連帶就一些條文來修法，以上。" }, { "speaker": "江韋辰", "speech": "政委、與會先進大家好，我是文化部江韋辰，今天就業管範圍，我們已經回答大家，其他的部分我們會帶回去了解之後再提供書面意見，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "古惠茹", "speech": "政委好、大家好，我是文化部文化資源司古惠茹，現場聽到有關於社區組織NPO、社造或者是地方創生議題提出一些建議的部分，後續希望文化部帶回去評估的部分，也可以提供給我們來做一些後續業務上的評估及調整，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "康廷嶽", "speech": "政委好，台北場介紹結束。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。就書面回應的部分，台北場的朋友們大概都有初步口頭說明了，等一下也許把事前的問題一案案處理，我們做法會是先問提案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好比像朱靜珊經理對於這樣的互動有沒有要提出來的部分？" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "第一個部分，這個部分明年就會列到行程，我們會先把資料準備好。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "第二個部分，因為蘇里長沒有到場，我負責的部分是在社區產業的部分，社會福利的部分，我來會議之前有先詢問過他們，他們也知道明年有比較明確的方向了，這個部分是不是可以有一個單一的窗口，如果有問題的話，是可以作提問的，這個是帶回去的訊息。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "第三，我想要順便呼應一下剛剛教授這邊提出來的，因為目前本身也是勞動力發展署多元的就業單位，其實在進用人員跟專案管理的部分，其實在一個計畫要成功，其實專案經理是非常重要的角色，就我自己本身來講，像我目前自己的部分，我的薪水是2萬9，700元，但是我進用的薪水是2萬6，400元，我們背後承受的責任是不一樣的，我會選擇來這裡工作是因為可以帶給社區希望跟熱情，那一些長輩的眼神也透露出這樣的熱情。" }, { "speaker": "朱靜珊", "speech": "我想要表達的是，我們很清楚知道的是，我們都有這樣的薪水，我們是說賺的是無形的能量財，如果沒有改變的話，很難讓有心想要回社區的年輕人回來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是地方創生講到的生態系，也就是社會經濟系統的整個生態。這也就是為何要用地方創生的方法，不完全是靠大家的熱情，這個是最主要的價值之一。當然創生也是人口計畫，因此是兩個意思，但是在經濟生態是一個重點，確實沒有錯。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "里長的部分，其實剛才衛福部我覺得回答滿清楚了。我有看他們明年長照服務發展基金的方法，至少有做到齊一式的窗口，以及不會特別再分你剛剛所講的這兩個狀態，像衛福部的朋友說明的，如果之後有任何的想法、問題，我想會請幕僚的單位，再給一個可以溝通的窗口，雖然這樣子，到了地方，還會再擬一個按照方式來做需求說明書、整體照顧服務體系說明等等，如果覺得地方跟中央沒有對齊的地方，隨時有一個窗口可以詢問，好不好？里長的需求先處理到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來是新創圓夢網，這邊講的是連結各方資訊與資源，把實際上的提案，像地方創生會有提案，或者是別的提案會用更視覺化的方法呈現，這邊有更具體的想法或規劃在做，如果有的話，請特別提出。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "接下來明年度協會跟一些地方的組織或者是年輕朋友做的事來做簡單的說明，看看可行性是不是可以申請SBIR的部分。" }, { "speaker": "Slido 留言", "speech": "非營利團體如果未來想建置共用的消費平台並會有收入的可能，那是否適用SBIR？因為細節的know-how不方便在上面表示，如果是進一步提案需求要與哪位窗口聯繫？又或者是否有其他適合的部會資源可以參考？目前這個平台計畫會牽扯到社區產業與青農青創的整合使用，想瞭解是否有部會對此方向有興趣？" }, { "speaker": "Slido 留言", "speech": "有關SBIR相關細節請電SBIR專案辦公室0800-888-908/（02）2396-4828 Sbir@cpc.org.tw" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "因為接下來協會是會成立做營銷相關的部門，從非營利組織開始會出現這一種營業的事情出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是不是「附屬作業組織」？" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "對，我們今天在跑國稅局的流程，出來之後會成立一個類似共同行銷平台網站的模式，但是我們的對象是合作方式是社區，社區可以透過這樣的平台，他們在上下游的過程中可以變成消費者，也可以變成生產者，好比我這個社區生產柳丁，可以跟其他的社區買，一定的過程中有折扣，但是是回到我們這一個購買的社區，變成他在購買號召的過程中這個社區是有收入的，讓大家把購買的這一件事變成部會每一個社區，或者是有一些社區根本沒有產業的可能，不可能有農產品或者是有其他競爭力的一些產品出來，但是可以透過號召居民購買東西的過程中，幫發展協會得到一些收入，以得到運作，這個是接下來想要建置行銷平台的部分。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "我不知道這樣的模式下是不是適合做SBIR的測試？因為我怕比較不像具體的公司或者是有具體的、之前的案例來參考，我不知道有沒有這樣的方式來申請相關的資源來建構這樣的平台，以上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個是滿有想像力的方式，之前SBTR也有聽過類似的提案，我想這個等一下請中企處的朋友們來回答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先回答我能回答的，你剛剛說做一個附屬作業組織、國稅局跑程序，這個部分有沒有任何人跟你討論過，行動支付導入，或者是小規模營業人的資格？" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "是有跟一些相關的公司來申請自動金流，或者是自動行動支付的方式來討論可行性，他說這個部分跟中小企業處確定運作模式跟是否申請一些補助案來協助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個請中企處併案來處理，這個型態是比較容易的。真的像好牧人弄一家公司，目前確實是比較困難的。如果把附屬作業組織金流的部分比較清楚，是用1％、0％或者是5％，我們先搞清楚，這樣會比較有幫助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "新創圓夢網的部分，我們也請負責執行的單位，網站開發，現在有一個叫「政府數位服務準則」（GDSG），主要是以使用者的需求為出發，盡可能找的是跟使用者進行對話，或者是網站還沒有寫好、只有幾張PPT就讓大家一起來討論了，先讓承辦單位看一下GDSG。國發會已經擬訂一個很詳細的檢核表，這個檢核表都是在試辦的狀態，如果適用時有發生問題，請隨時跟我們講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此確保新的方式來做網站建置時，可以盡早把實際使用者需求納入，聽你的意思是願意自願給一些意見了，所以就直接列入使用者調查的對象。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個案子比較單純，先這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "稅務的部分是剛剛以恩的朋友提的，有沒有比較具體要回應的？現在是有一個協會、作業組織的單位，是有一定想做的事，但是還沒有確定的商業模式吸引外國人的時候，這個是完全屬於協會的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，也有某些產品或者是服務很明確開始有投資價值了，這一個部分我們確實也有看到設一家子公司，但是這一家子公司是要用類似好牧人協會的方式，也就是社會使命、財務責信都要跟協會去連動，這個證明出來滿work的營運模式時，現在有一些協會正在這樣子做。有沒有想要詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "好牧人的模式可以做，是不是有另外一個可以讓人有想像的空間，我在協會是做這一批人，另外做公司也是這一批人，也就是左邊口袋拿去右邊的口袋，因此會讓人有這樣的想像，但是並不是說他這樣做，我沒有這樣的意思。" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "我的意思是，會不會另外一個可能，當我們還沒有辦法找到投資的人進來時，我們可以什麼樣的一個幫助？而那個幫助是一個有期限的幫助，並不是無止盡地幫助，可以扶持，也就是想要讓投資人有一點信心，也就是非營利單位是可以想出作業模式，然後當這樣發展到一個成熟度的時候，投資就進來了，但是當沒有這樣人的時候，要讓一個非營利單位從無到有，這個是有困難度的，是非常有困難度的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣非常清楚了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們現在想要發展的產品或者是服務，至少有一個說明嗎？或者是有小規模的驗證嗎？可以講清楚一點嗎？" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "驗證是東西賣得出去嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "東西看得到……" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "我們現在有一個系列是袋幸福，能夠透過弱勢家庭的婦女，很多都是在做家庭代工，這個其實是花很多時間，重複做一件事，但是並沒有得到相對的工價，我們希望透過貸信服務婦女的工作，第一個部分是可以讓他們在既有既能上再提升，也可以提升他們自己的自信心，並不是我只能做這一件事，而是在做當中，我可以繼續學習，然後從我們去外面跟人家分享、與客人使用的回饋，可以增加婦女的自信心，這個是在家庭代工做不到的。" }, { "speaker": "彭怡萍", "speech": "我覺得他們的時間還是以家庭為主，因為是單親的家庭，或許有很多時間是要投入在孩子的部分、家庭的需要上，有的要照顧長輩、有的要照顧小孩，所以基本上時間是很有限的，因此在能夠配合的時間下又可以做這一件事，因此現在有一個袋幸服務，我們有做飲料杯套、書衣，也有做環保袋，我們目前還在努力做，現在第四個產品是做抱枕，我們想要找合作單位，我們比較沒有辦法透過平台來賣東西，我們現在努力去搭，是不是有人可以給我們有機會，去做扮手禮或是做什麼都好，是不可以有一個平台可以讓我們做售出的動作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "兩個建議：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個，是很明確讓我們可以看到已經可以賣，或者是可以想像的東西，還是很建議現在新創圓夢網可以登記，新創圓夢網並沒有區分是協會合作社或者是公司型態，我們唯一要的只是有一個明確的社會使命，如何讓社會更好，以及明確至少一項產品或者是服務，讓公開可以檢視我如果跟你購買這個產品或服務的話，到底每一年正在讓社會有變得更好類似公益報告或者是責信的部分，就是使命模式及責信，這三個是構成我們登記的三個要素。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像剛剛提到好牧人，其實我們給他們也是這個要求，他不能說是公司，就免於這個責信，是必須要一起做責信，因此有左邊放右邊的情況，至少一年之內就大家看到，大家會譴責，因此不會做這樣的事，這個是我們當時給他們的具體要求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在登記之後，以我的理解，各部會都有相關的資源，像女性創業的飛雁計畫慢慢變成創業的型態，如果在黃頁上沒有登記的話，逐字稿出去也不知道要打電話找誰，這樣才比較有可能吸引到願意講你們的故事或者是在群眾募資平台，像社會性的金融方法才可以引入，之後才驗證，然後再談融資或者是驗證，所以希望到明年，比較後面的部分。很高興可以在也初期有一些交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "投融資的部分，我們先來看萬里這邊，因為投資跟融資是不一樣的，投管公司如果願意做影響力投資的話，要的並不是一份很漂亮、只為了賺錢（for profit）的財報，而是要看到如何充分用錢的方式（with profit）。不是為了賺錢，而是有使用錢，這樣子影響力投資才願意投下去，融資當然就真的是希望至少能夠拿得回來，因此這兩個是不同的，看有什麼想要補充或者想詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "中小企業處有回答21家投管公司，目前應該有接觸其中兩家，還有十九家要再努力一下，要再繼續跟他們接觸。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "我的一個想法是，不論是加強投資實施方案或者是創業天使投資方案，甚至是像有一些是SBIR或者是SIIR，是不是其中有一個部分的比例是給社會企業？像剛剛講到的是B型企業或者是社會創新企業，有一個比例是讓他們來申請，在這樣的領域裡面的評審委員是不一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "像社會企業跟中小企業一起去競爭，評審委員還是同一批人在審這個部分，是不是會理解社會企業所帶來社會效益是不一樣的，就是評分的標準是不一樣的，這一個部分是有區隔的，經濟部中小企業處或者是各局處有很多這樣的補助辦法或是想要輔導這一些計畫或者是投資方案，是不是對於社會企業有名額，又或者是在評審、評分方式的區別。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "了解，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在其實是一個光譜概念，我們會覺得任何願意來促進永續發展，像你們是包含生態上的永續、負責任生產消費循環的部分，只要能夠講得出來對於永續有什麼的幫助，不一定要到社會企業的程度是為了永續而存在的企業，可以是負有社會責任的企業也是可以的，想要賺錢是佔六成的比例，但是中間至少不要破壞環境，對社會還是有一些正面的影響，那個是光譜再往右邊一點，或者是更往右邊一點，也就是企業在他有賺錢的時候也能夠讓他所有的利害關係人都能夠進行一些社會跟環境上的加強。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最右邊的是為了賺錢，但是至少不能賺黑心錢，不能以破壞社會或者是環境作為賺錢的手段，這個是公司法修法之後非常明確的。因為這樣的光譜關係，比較難留1/4或者是多少的名額給中間的社會企業，因為每一家企業按照良心發現的程度，每一年的狀況是不一樣的，但是我們可以做的是什麼？我們可以慢慢重新教育這一些評審委員們，這一些評審委員們現在都在接受所謂ESG，也就是在經營一個企業的時候，對於環境、社會、內部的治理這三件事必須要同時併重，才能說是一個好的企業，因此即使是在一般中小企業的評選裡面，也可以看到所謂傳統意見會看到ESG上有沒有做好事，或者至少不要做壞事，這個是全面的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "中企處是透過共同供應契約的審查跟Buying Power，鼓勵所有企業都能夠把社會企業納入供應鏈裡面這兩個主要的計畫，這兩個有非常多的學者專家及評審委員，因為這樣的關係才終於了解到這兩件事其實並不是互斥，而是能夠互相加強的，就是永續的自主營運跟創造社會價值。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個部分還要一、兩年的時間才能把評選委員，都啟發到可以用這樣的光譜來看事情的程度，但是我想這個對社會整體營運會是比較好的，因為子連大公司或者是一般被認為只是賺錢的公司也會發現社會使命納入他的供應當中只有好處沒有壞處，這樣無形之中不一定是投資者，客戶也會因此增加，我先回答到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "謝謝政委補充，已經往這個方向發展了。" }, { "speaker": "曾彥翔", "speech": "我舉一個例子，就目前很多與會者是幫助小農，像做冰淇淋或者是做果汁的，甚至開餐廳，我們都是接某一個計畫或者是補助，考量的並不是做果汁或冰淇淋或者是餐廳哪一個比較賺錢，這三個單位對於小農的銷售幫助，而是要考量對小農的幫助比較多，獲得補助的機會比較高，並不是做果汁比較賺錢而不會倒，類似這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這裡是地方創生比較可以回來講，但是還是先投影一下，所謂社會參與創生，網路上都有，大概要講的是，重點並不是我們先去地方上的這一些產業或者生態，這都是點狀補助計畫的KPI。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這種KPI的問題，以及產生出來的一些行政作業上成本，我想大家都非常地清楚，因此我就不特別多說，這邊其實比較像價值取向，我們先把五年之後這個地方要給大家看什麼東西，願意讓人留得下來，可以創造經濟上——或者是生育上——的生態系提出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來針對共同的價值去加盟，並不是只有一筆錢要分，而是有共同發想之後，任何的部會都有一點像加盟者的概念，哪一些進得來，其實就把每一個部會看成是NPO就好了，每一年都有想要達成的使命，也有相關計畫，如何要看放大這個東西，並不需要有太多的核銷或者是提計畫的成本。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "地方創生最主要的是如果以後端，也就是以企業身分、法人機構身分進來，就是進來討論的願景確定之後，也就是補助這一個生態系的內容，但是我覺得您比較在意的，是不是在前面，也就是有關於創生實驗提案討論的部分先進來，這個部分比較影響到生態系，不管在做哪一個部分，都可以框定未來是要往你所認同的這個願景去走，也不一定是從政府的資金，好比像冰淇淋的部分，有一些是我在好剪才這一家社會企業剪頭髮時，他們同時賣給我的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是有各種結合，因為需要把這邊promote的故事，變成那一家理髮店的社會價值或目標，這個跟政府沒有什麼關係，他們大概也沒有拿政府的補助。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但DNA包含農業永續價值，這個宣導很可能是更有用的，因為剪頭髮也沒有別的事可以做，只能看你們的宣傳文案。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個比政府砸錢稍微有用一點，對於凝聚是比較重要的，如果可以先期參與的話，就可以跳脫好像只有多少補助款的概念，就可能會變成是進廚房，並不是有多少糖吃的問題，這邊先做一下回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想地方創生的部分有時間可以討論，先到農產品驗證的部分，我先問一下農委會的朋友，這一個辦法必須等立法院母法通過才會生效，或者是辦法裡面有一部分會先生效？" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "有關於初級加工廠辦法，必須要有依據，我們這個草案目前也是在研擬當中，我們會內及會外開了很多次會議，初級加工廠的辦法，一定要在農產品生產管理驗證辦法這裡修法，必須要提出修正草案，在裡面補充有關農產品加工的這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣我了解了，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "簡單來講，關於好比像什麼是溯源農產品等等字立法院必須要肯認，才能發揮效果，是嗎？" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "是的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家還有很多時間，並不急，立法院會期沒有剩幾天，不太可能在臨時會處理，所以可能在下一個會期優先處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前這個是互相溝通的時期，不會明天就生效了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看吳執行長有沒有要補充或者是詢問的？" }, { "speaker": "吳書瑀", "speech": "現在就目前草案的內容看來，有一點清楚的是農產品初級加工及界限在哪裡，好像有一點看不太出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "等於工廠登記，目前有很多食品加工廠是在做這三類，意思這三類是不是以後兩邊都可以做？" }, { "speaker": "吳書瑀", "speech": "像我們規模比較小的時候，我們可以跟農夫合作來做規劃，可是用規模或者是用類別，這個看起來很模糊，像我們是無添加的，或者是用無添加的方式來看這個分類，然後初級加工認定可以到哪一個階段，這個也是很難釐清的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣大概理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個適用範圍類別比較廣，不太確定真的在這三個廣的類別當中都可以做，或者是未來會有一些天花板，天花板在哪裡也還沒有看到，聽起來意思是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不曉得農委會朋友們有沒有初步回應？" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "現在農產品初級加工廠，像水果結切之類的，像這樣的加工，規模都是比較小，不像食品加工廠的規模設備比較大，我們的農民簡易加工沒有辦法取得到工廠登記，因此我們希望就這一塊透過修法，把生產跟初級加工來作管理。" }, { "speaker": "吳書瑀", "speech": "想要確認一下，所謂很初級的加工，其實在小農市集可以看到很完整的產品，像果醬跟烘焙類的產品，如何定義是初級加工或者已經是完整的產品？這個是我們很多的疑惑。" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "有關於加工的程度到怎麼樣，從草案是比較初階的，我還是可以請農糧署來作進一步的詳細說明並提供書面資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個可能要請農糧署，可能要農糧署，依我的理解，是把乾燥、粉碎、碾製、焙炒這一些低風險加進去，後來因為想要推廣產銷履歷及有機加工驗證，因此後來擴大範圍，擴大範圍之後就會變成你只要講清楚產銷履歷或有機的話，能夠做的事就不限於乾燥、粉碎、碾製、焙炒，因此在這樣的情況之下，需要農糧署要很精確的文字就知道什麼被歸類在裡面、哪一些沒有被歸類在裡面，因為有上百項不同的加工品。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們都了解你付，不代表未來會變成這樣子，因為需要立法委員同意，也需要我們在這邊進行更多的溝通，但是以目前的想像是怎麼樣就好了。" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "再請農糧署提供書面資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如看不懂或怎麼樣都可以調整。" }, { "speaker": "吳書瑀", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "就剛剛相同的問題補充一下，我想還有滿多在做這種生產地方的小組織或者是小農業，我們完全不知道這一回事，也有人已經面臨到剛剛講工廠到底可否存在的問題。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "特別是剛剛講產品的類型、範圍在哪裡，所以是不是可能有幾個方式要讓第一線的朋友們能夠知道，然後把他們實際面對的問題，像農糧署或者是農委會哪一個承辦單位，可以具體收到這一些東西，根據這一些東西再用高層概念性思考來轉換成法條的內容，不然我相信明年什麼時候通過之後，還是會有一堆問題，本來做了好事結果又被罵，非常不值得。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "大家手上的東西，打開裡面的產品，如果今天是在第一線的發展協會或者是農民，透過自己的材料生產出來的，這個時候如何納入？我的意思是，是不是各部會所有的管道或者是通知所有接觸到的人，把他們正在生產的東西，像拍照或者是其他的方式，讓我們的立法單位或者是行政部門的成員能夠看到，看不懂就詢問他們，這樣分類才會有效，這個是我們過去五年來第一線看到最大的問題。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "這整個溝通的過程，並不是實際發生問題討論的話，那就完蛋了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常好的建議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也覺得這個可以請農糧署參考，我知道他們之前都有辦巡迴座談，但是巡迴座談一向都有一個困難，來的人是已經知道有這一件事，不知道這一件事的不會來，這個並不是特別挑農委會，任何部會的任何政策都是這樣的情況，因此我覺得各位再幫忙做利益相關人或組織者，組織者並不會在前面才收到東西，而是之後才收到單張，等於組織者沒有影響政策的空間，只能進行說服，可能連他自己都沒有那麼容易進行說服，這個是一向溝通上的困難。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一個政策有一個好處，目前立法院都還沒有開始實質進行審議，所以理論上都還沒有到民意機關的時候，也就是預擬稿子的階段，這個階段的溝通是比較有價值的，大家的意見還沒有到立法院，到行政院出去之前，最後的意見都可以納入，因此請農糧署回應具體詢問時，也包含他們目前規劃怎麼樣的溝通方式以及怎麼樣跟地方組織者是夥伴關係，而不是政令宣達的關係，並不是政令宣達沒有用，而是最早擬稿，並不是最後擬稿時，還是要讓組織者有一些事情可以幫忙做，因此請農糧署的朋友回應時一併回應，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "就我自己參與過這樣子類似的經驗來說，講一些大家不愛聽的話，加工廠的申請，像地方上的產業達到一定規模時，有需要做初級的加沒有錯，但是如果規模很小的時候，有沒有這個必要？" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "第二，單位是以個人的公司或者是以社區全體，但是建置在個人場域上的話，這樣子到底是否符合這樣的協助？因為等同於一個工廠登記，如果本來是農地，但是是私人土地，後來因為這樣子的關係就被變更了，這樣子的方式沒有比較多的限制規範，又或者是一些配套措施來防範這一種機制的話，我們的農田就會變成工廠。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那當然。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "這個是我比較擔心的一點，因為我自己協助農民朋友來做一些加工品，但是我的加工絕對是找合法的食品廠來做這一件事，我更希望給他們的觀念是，大家一起共同開發出來的產品之後，是透過專業的分工來把東西做出來。" }, { "speaker": "黃雅聖", "speech": "風險不是由我們承擔，之後也不會出現利益糾葛，這個是我自己的感受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "百分之百源跟驗證，我想大家這麼在意，密度不會低於加工廠，但是這裡主要的問題是，如果一開始網開太大的話，實務上會出現各種難以驗證跟難以源的東西，並不是法條說百分之百就百分之百，這個是很具體的意見，請農糧署一併回覆。儘量簡短。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "一樣是加工廠剛剛這個問題，黃先生提到工廠現在是找專業的，小農或者是發展協會自己要見習，像剛剛有提到土地，土地可能不只是農地的問題，有些可能比較像校地，這個在生裡面如果全部都是工友的狀況之下不會有問題。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "但是有一些有私有、公有，產權的部分還沒有辦法處理完全，但是政府的資源都已經進到這裡面，也已經開始發酵，也開始產生正面的效果了，這時也會面臨一個問題，因此並不是我們農糧署，跟其他的部會都有關係，這個也希望一并處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有問題，我們去台東都有碰到類似的狀態，會一併處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實看之前巡迴紀錄，很多朋友都在關心這一塊，像國產署、退輔會、這一些部分，但是我想今天沒有辦法回應到這麼多，但之前都有處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第七，這個部分我想具體的部分，非常感謝這兩家公司可以在極短的時間之內就商借這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，有關於培力產品通路的部分，不曉得聽了這一輪下來有沒有具體想要討論的？" }, { "speaker": "古瑞婷", "speech": "我們在OTOP舉辦展售的部分獲益很多，其實我們出去展售並不是在賣商品，而是要展現其他的能力，賣商品一個月也沒有辦法溫飽，因此必須要用代工的方式把自己最基本的生活來穩住。" }, { "speaker": "古瑞婷", "speech": "OTOP的承辦人也有提到，像今年跟OTOP產品的展售當中，就已經連結到兩、三年沒有跟我們聯絡到的廠商回來了，同時也發現到很多人不知道臺灣有這樣的能力跟接小單的代工單位。" }, { "speaker": "古瑞婷", "speech": "剛才很開心的是，隔壁這一位做冰淇淋的，她說之前一直找不到有代工的合作單位，我在想的是，我們差的是曝光機會來告訴別人，因為我們要的是給自己，我們不要人家幫忙，我們只要告訴別人我有這個能力，我希望政委這邊能夠幫我們媒合的是，如果OTOP將來在安排展售時，是不是可以像以車站、人流最多，且交通樞紐最多的地方，因為來往的人都是出差的人，這個是有經濟效益跟背後的深度，讓我們看到更多的人事實上是願意支持臺灣在地的人與產業，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們每一次巡迴到每一個地方，像之前的火車站這一類的，像人潮最多的地方，我們都會盡可能去談，這個我們會繼續做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "包含在台北的空總社創中心，我們也專門為了這一件事去申請了新的門牌，也就是仁愛路三段99號，也開始辦以永續發展號召的市集，目前是在週年慶試辦，用這個東西來，至少先吸引大家來的部分，會很積極地做，也包含剛剛所有講的這一個型錄，像這個型錄碰得到的地方會更多，這個也是可以幫忙的。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "剛剛有提到Buying Power的活動，其實就是媒合企業跟社企，讓更多大企業的CSR認識社企，進而購買產品或者是服務，今年上個禮拜我們剛辦完Buying Power的頒獎典禮，購買最多的幾大企業，可以接受政委或者是部長的頒獎，類似用這樣的方式可以讓大家更有意願購買。" }, { "speaker": "鍾宜珊", "speech": "明年其實我們還會再辦類似這一種Buying Power活動的展售，也規劃在台北火車站，但是這一些前提是您可以先來登記，您就可以接受到這一些資訊，我們要展售的時候，我們就會通知你們，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想Buying Power滿有價值的，今年到1.5億，不但比起去年是翻倍，而且去年都是一次性的，也就是三節採購這一類的，今年沒有記錯的話，超過一半是已經進入供應鏈的，所以是經常性的採購，這個是差很多的，因為你看到政府辦一個東西，我們中秋節買一個的話，就是那幾家而已，進入供應鏈的話，那會更多元化。" }, { "speaker": "古瑞婷", "speech": "其實我們要擴大這樣產能時，其實我們已經發現到我們的人力已經斷手了，而且在技術層面車縫這一塊已經斷層了，因此想要把這樣的場域先有，因此在今年下半年已經跟社會局標到新的場域，這樣的機具提供此問題給政委之後，我們也積極以高雄杉林區周邊的學校只要有流行服飾科或者是裁縫機的都去拜訪，像剛拜訪一間是勤美高中，只招收一班，因為我們是用人單位，我也希望能夠用到在地的孩子，因此順便去徵才，老師、主任的反映跟我們說現在孩子要走這一行不好走，今年只招生十一個孩子，因此還有停開的危險，而且學校也有面臨到明年要關科，我們也有跟他說需要這樣的機台，他本來也講說有一些二手的，想要跟我們一些串聯。" }, { "speaker": "古瑞婷", "speech": "但他們不知道他們的主管單位要如何申請、我們要如何跟窗口講，這都是跟有心想要給我們的學校單位，不知道方法、也不知道窗口，可是卻是已經有一個工跟須都串聯，就是中間少這樣的橋梁，因此不曉得在今天這樣的環境、會議中，是不是也可以協助我們，我們要怎麼樣究竟能夠找到這樣的學校，因為我們一直說要產學合作，去的並不是告知我的需求，也把我的孩子目前的狀況，而且現在其實技術層面應該是最寶貴的，臺灣真的在這一方面年紀非常大了，因此我們的媽媽、我們也幫他規劃了，也就是希望他們走向實質、退而不休帶領了這一些偏鄉的孩子、婦女來走，不斷永續走下去，因此我可能也要請政委幫忙，在學校或者是教育單位，如何跟他們申請，這一個部分要怎麼做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個結構非常成立，完全沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "通常巡迴會議會後換名片才是重點，包含我認識的老師們或者是有在做USR計畫，逐字稿出來之後也看一下，這一方面也多跟旁邊的人換名片，不一定是從我認識的人出發，從我出發都是中企處認識的人，如果中企處有一些媒合資源的話，會透過新創圓夢網的聯絡資料來主動通知，這個是沒有問題的。您有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "我很快補充一下。這樣的狀況跟我前面的建議是一樣的，政府有非常多的資源，在全臺灣各小店上都有聯繫的管道，如果這樣的問題pass過來之後，行政部門主動積極，不要再做登記，我不一定登記，但是如果今天沒有來、沒有進到這個圈子是永遠不容易知道的。" }, { "speaker": "翁裕峰", "speech": "因此要反過來，我們應該要主動把先前已經佈起來的線，就是直接把它連上了，如果更積極的話，應該是可以做成公共媒合網，有故事性、需求、具體要做的事，還有老師可以教，這個時候誰的機具可以跟這邊連結？或者是誰獲得想要訓練都可以來連結，我們是在做這樣的媒合平台，如果願意的話，大家其實可以一起來討論，這個東西可以很快活起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "歡迎第二位自願者加入新創圓夢網明年的計畫，他們給我看的社會需求地圖媒合就是您剛剛講的，我也很好奇最後做起來會怎麼樣，但是在一開始規劃的時候，請老師一起進來，我覺得是最好的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個確保不要在新創圓夢網做了一些民間已經做的東西，串聯起來就好了，第二個是大家要的其實是快速反映，這才是我們可以做的，而不是很漂亮的畫面，很漂亮的畫面大家都可以做，我覺得這是我們最後可以對齊的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "書面差不多這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們回來講一下地方創生，大家了解到明年是地方創生元年，我們離元年還有12、13天，現在還在地方創生0年，講的是比較是概念式、沒有操作計畫，確實是這樣，因為我們目前給各個部會的deadline是在12月31日所有要交進來的東西就要交進來，因此這一個部分確實大家看到的簡報不完全是可操作的，比較是未來要檢討的那個架構跟方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此你看到跟我看到並沒有什麼差別，這個是第一個要先講的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，因為行政院現在有一個院級的青年諮詢委員會，我們請各地在地方進行一些經營的青年，像我們在台南，目前委員會裡面也有一位成功大學都市計畫學系，現在也在創業，叫做林筱菁委員，她也是農委會的青年回流創新研究計畫的計畫主持人，我們各地都有這樣的青年朋友。我們應該是1月11日會到國發會，在地方創生元年的一開始，對於實際的計畫去進行具體的來回討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這就完全牽涉到大家回去之後要如何跟公所的朋友開始互動，也就是進入第一線操作了，我想我們的青年諮詢委員有25位委員大概有一半都是之前跟各地方政府做過類似的計畫，很多都是跨三、四個部會的，我想交給他們來檢視我比較放心。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己沒有辦法逐一去現地看到全臺灣的計畫，所以是要請這一些組織者們來，然後一次來看你這樣的規劃是不是可以真的這樣做，如果不行的話，國發會再回去說這樣不行，但是如果可以的話，比較具體的東西就可以出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "青諮會比較不像上任政府的青年顧問團，往往大家比較在意的是自己的創業或者是就業的部分。在這一屆一大半是組織者，大家在意的是地方的生態系是否能夠做起來，因此我們盡可能把國發會1月11日的簡報公開，讓大家更進一步進行對話的機會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果有什麼問題要委員提的話，我剛剛並沒有要加重單一委員負擔的意思，大家都可以到行政院青年諮詢委員會的網站去看有沒有比較熟的面孔，他們大概都可以幫你們做第一輪的確認，並不是之後不溝通，之後還是一定要溝通，只是因為他們是院級單位，只是在第一個時間溝通是比較position。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果還沒有看這個國發會11月30日簡報的話，建議先看一下，這樣比較可以問到問題點。以我的了解是曾老師對這一方面是非常熟識，因此並不是單點式的做法，是要讓本來做社造或者是特定地方的產業或者是做文創，這一些力量可以加起來，並不是耗費大家計畫主持人的爆肝的情況，因此地方創生先跟大家回應，先提具體的問題，1月11日的時候，跟青諮會交流，之後也會有很多別的交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外，其他提到行動支付的部分，已經併案處理了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像銓敘部的部分，我想沒有辦法在這邊處理，回去之後請幕僚單位問一下人總，把之前至少來回相關的公文調出來。我們不一定可以透過這個平台一定要考試院做什麼，但是至少讓大家知道實際的情況，如果他們的實際考量比剛剛引用的那一句話多的話，至少把實際情況有做到對焦，目前就先處理到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有我漏掉或者是想要討論的部分？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看台北的朋友有沒有其他要補充的？或者我講的過於簡略、你們願意follow up的部分，看有沒有要再補充的？" }, { "speaker": "康廷嶽", "speech": "沒有要補充的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果沒有的話，就先到這邊，等一下請儘量交換名片，謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "感謝大家今天又再次碰面，署內這邊有準備一些資料，我的認知今天想討論三件事，第一個是第三次協作會議收尾，第二個是未來要做什麼；但是比起這兩點，我想最重要的一個問題，到底健保卡跟eID的整體關係是什麼，因為這一段時間陸續開了很多會議、也有滿多事件，我個人覺得今天最重要的是我們想先確認這部分的狀況，再去談未來方向。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "目前不同方資訊來源有的是說整合、有的是說合併 -- 這些卡跟卡的關係、部會間的關係、與智慧政府的關聯等等，希望今天可以做完整的釐清。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "因為我想這應該是今天主要需要釐清的部分，容我先用白板跟大家回顧一下這個案子近期陸續發生的一些事情：" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "首先，我們是在11月24日選後的禮拜一開了第三次的協作會議。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "在這個會議後的下一個禮拜一，12月3日新聞報導有講到政院高層表示2020年身分證跟健保卡將合併，且也提到可以用虛擬卡手機看病等等。由於2020年合併這個資訊部內先前並未接到院內有過正式指示，這天新聞出來後，因為剛好是禮拜一，所以當時也透過政委辦各位協助請唐政委在院內政務會議確認狀況。當時，就我們會後由唐政委所得知的是，初步認為大方向不變，也就是健保卡、身分證預留彼此技術上未來可以整合的空間，但目前健保卡這條線可以繼續發展。這個大概是在12月3日的時候我們的認知。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "接著我們發現健保卡的議題，也有被納入國發會較上位智慧政府中、與智慧政府中的eID、GSN網路等有關，12月4日國發會與院長報告智慧政府一案，本部部長也有出席，出席前也有跟資訊處、健保署等單位先開會討論。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這個會議的狀況，正式會議紀錄中並未直接提到健保卡，僅提到「第一階段發行eID結合自然人憑證，後續國發會應盤點政府服務項目，並推動各部會擴大全程線上服務項目，使eID成為政府服務的鑰匙」；另我們也有與出席的長官了解，會中的大方向是要往整合走，目前健保卡這條線續行，後續看兩邊的發展狀況視情況進行整合。也就是說，與12月3日我們收到的資訊大致相符。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "再來，就是我們剛好剛剛開部務會議部資訊處有報告到，在院長與部長們12月4日的會議後，12月10日國發會有額外再召開一次智慧政府的會議，由陳主委主持，本部是由資訊處去與會。就處長轉述，這一次的會議有明確說明是eID跟健保卡要合併，並請內政部也要開始與各部會做溝通討論。另我剛有拿到該場次的會議紀錄，是這樣寫「內政部規劃 eID 整合國民身分證與自然人憑證，作為啟動政府數位服務之鑰，不在晶片中存留個人資料，盼逐步取代健保卡及駕照的身分辨識功能。eID僅用於辨識個人身分，而非儲存個人資料的資料庫...」。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我們發現在這個12月10日的會議記錄上，用的概念從原本的整合變為「盼望逐步取代健保卡」，概念上似乎是從整合跨入較接近合併的概念。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "以上，因為會議比較繁多，又有一些媒體報導，對我們來說，訊息有一點紛亂，尤其不同場合時點用詞也不太一致，讓我們不太了解兩卡未來的關係是整合？是合併？也進一步想問整合的定義？合併的定義？，這是我今天最想釐清的部分，整理目前我所知道的脈絡，大概先提到這邊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看署裡有沒有要追加的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是我們把這一句話：「盼逐步取代『健保卡及駕照』的『身分辨識功能』」，先搞清楚它的意思？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們也想搞清楚，我剛在部務會議的時候，聽到部的資訊處轉述國發會開了一個會議，也就是智慧政府，如Peggy所講的，因我們在同一個會議中，所以我不知道現在是處於什麼狀態、未來會往什麼方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，任何人有聽到我們要停發健保卡嗎？" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "12月4日是潘處長報告的，我說明一下情形，如果有不正確的話，請潘處長糾正。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "那一天的確花次長有提到整合的用語容易誤會，當時陳主委其實做了滿清楚的說明，意義上並不是身分證與健保卡兩個卡片合一，而是作為使用政府數位服務的鑰匙，實際上會議紀錄也可以看到，當時院長裁示應該要說清楚，第一階段是現有身分證、自然人憑證會變成一個東西，叫做數位身分證，這樣子之後可以接取其他的服務，駕照服務、其他政府的服務，整個政府服務國發會規劃是希望都朝向數位化發展。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "我們現在看到正式的會議紀錄，部裡面有收到：「eID是智慧政府發展的關鍵基礎，內政部規劃eID整合國民身分證、自然人憑證，作為啟動政府數位政府之鑰，不在晶片中存留個人資料，逐步取代健保卡及駕照的身分辨識功能。」" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "那一天的情形反而比較是認為整合這個用詞會模糊、發生誤會，不知道是不是這樣子？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "沒有錯，完全正確。其實那一天花次長覺得「整合」二字會讓外界誤解把兩張卡的資料放在同一張卡上，實際上包括陳主委也多次做了澄清，並不是把兩張卡的資料放在同一張卡上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有兩件事：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，一個是實體的東西，塑膠做的有線圈跟晶片，這一張卡目前看起來，當我們使用整合二字的時候，非常明確，只是「身分證」跟「自然人憑證」的這兩個實體卡變成一個實體卡的提議。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "目前唯一「整合」有用在及物動詞的時候，所及的物就是「這張塑膠卡片」？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那如果講服務運用的話，目前的用詞是「介接」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "陳主委對外，或者是我們看到的會議紀錄，好像都是說「介接」或者是「存取」？好比拿eID報稅，這中間的服務關係是？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "是鑰匙的功能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "eID的功能用詞，是叫做「鑰匙」？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對。取得政府服務的鑰匙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「鑰匙」是名詞。動詞是用「取得」？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以名詞是「鑰匙」，動詞是「取得」，受詞是「服務」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在健保署跟Peggy詢問的是：「取代」這個動詞的受詞是「身分辨識功能」，這個受詞是什麼意思？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「身分辨識功能」以我的理解，像我們國內線取票可以用健保卡拿票，是用來辨識我的身分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我其實並不是看醫生或者怎麼樣，但無論如何還是可以用健保卡拿到那一張票。或者是有非常多線上登錄的情況，目前都是需要身分辨識的功能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所謂取代健保卡的身分辨識功能，我想跟資管處確認，我想像中的意思是這樣：在本來要使用健保卡或者駕照作為身分辨識的場景裡，如果是在機器可讀的情況，盡可能未來是用eID來達成或者是進行，而不是用健保卡或者是駕照來進行，好比國內線取票的例子。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對。我好像都是在重複。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "是這個意思嗎？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "如果是這樣的話，完全不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "第一，目前沒有任何人說到任何的時點，如果我們針對「取代」這兩個字的話，目前並沒有任何人提到要在什麼時間點做取代的動作，這個是第一點要說明的。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "第二，我們所謂的「取代」是要看健保卡的用途。像在就醫的過程中，有沒有什麼階段是做身分識別的這一件事，可能第一關到醫院的時候，是要做身分識別的話，希望將來能夠用到eID的機制，去做身分識別。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以是在就醫情境當中，跟保險無關的服務？像預約等等。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對，這裡面沒有提到跟保險的部分。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "其實這一張健保卡除看病外，也跟線上業務有關，我們這張卡也可以用，看病也可以用，很多業務也可以把健保卡拿來做別的可以用，比如買票跟搭飛機，這一些都被廣泛利用，像報稅，好像不曉得是在講廣義或者是狹義。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "因為今天這個東西有記逐字稿，大家看得到，我直接問一個明顯的問題：eID未來會逐步取代健保卡，這邊講的是「身分辨識功能」。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "那麼eID未來會不會逐步取代健保卡的「保險跟就醫功能」？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有聽到有人這樣講。如果要這樣的話，意思就是某個時點健保卡要停發，但是我沒有在任何會議上聽到這個論述。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "方才潘處長提到「...就是就醫的過程中，有沒有什麼階段是做身分識別的這一件事，可能第一關到醫院的時候，是要做身分識別的話，希望將來能夠用到eID的機制去做身分識別...」" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這邊我有點難以理解，意思是第一關做身分識別利用eID，後續第二三四關用健保卡？但我們不太可能跟民眾說以後就醫你要改成帶兩張卡，一開始拿eID給我看後面要拿健保卡給我看......這個不make sense。這部分可否請處長多詮釋一點讓我們了解。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "就醫的過程中，是在做身分識別的情境，未來希望能夠用eID去取代，但是並沒有說只能用eID去做，我也沒有聽到有人說只能用eID。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "Peggy剛剛講的意思是拿了eID之後再拿健保卡，其實並沒有這樣的情形。" }, { "speaker": "彭巧菁", "speech": "是不是這個意思？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來是在某一個時間點，開發新的數位服務的業者，好比像機場之類的，可以只支援eID就好了，因為已經廣泛發卡了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果還是想要支援健保卡，那個是他的商業自由。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "雖然說是他的商業自由，但是能省成本就會省成本，所以到某一個時間點，並沒有精確哪一個時間點，新開發、有身分辨識功能的民間數位服務，可能就會選擇直接eID。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "反過來問一件事，現在大家認知外界把健保卡當作某一種身分識別，這個也並不是任何的法規有去規定健保卡要當作身分識別，比如我今天去到通訊行買手機或者是辦門號，身分證一定是規定要出示，但是並沒有規定一定要拿健保卡出來。" }, { "speaker": "彭巧菁", "speech": "您可能誤會大家的意思，現在雖然法律沒有規定，是習慣。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "這個是習慣的問題，所以回歸商業機制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是商業行為。一般業者，現在說健保卡我可以接受，說真的是因為健保卡發的比自然人憑證多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊假想未來，在自然人憑證發卡比健保卡多的情況下，一般的商業行為就會去支援發卡多的那一個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實這個是自然的時間點，並不是到某一個時間點就要求民間，說「你如果再支援健保卡取機票，就要罰鍰」，沒有這一種事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而是如果發卡量，eID比健保卡多的話，相信民間的商家就會去支援eID，就是這樣而已。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "政委知道相關法令從來沒有就身分認證的部分有強制規定，除了NCC的雙證辦SIM卡的規定，那時很明確要求主要身分識別的工具，就是身分證跟護照，這個是國家發給身分識別之用；次要是雙證辦卡的第二個輔助，相對比較寬，只要業者願意接受，通常就是有照片的證件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "包含學生證。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我有問題，剛剛提到12月4、10日的會議有這兩個會議紀錄外，另外也想提另外一個問題，12月4日、10日其實衛福部都有表達一個聲音是全力配合智慧政府的政策推動方向，甚至希望醫事卡也要整合eID，我不知道衛福部提這樣的建議，你們的想像是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "當你們提這樣的建議，你們認為醫事卡要跟eID整合或者是放進去，這一件事對你們而言的想像是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "謝謝怡君的提醒，這個是作為PO我失職的地方，這一件事因為跨我們部裡面不同單位，健保卡這邊是健保署這邊在協助，醫事人員卡、智慧政府端是部內資訊處在協助，另外剛剛提到12月10日會議是資訊處出席，未來我這邊會提前做好橫向自己部內的資訊同步。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我可以理解怡君的意思，一樣都是相關的會議，部裡面不是有發聲出來？但有關部內雖然也參與12月4日、12月10日的會議且說明配合辦理，就我這邊的認知，如同剛剛所提，12月4日時我們出席長官所接受的訊息是同12月3日政務會議上確認的，保留未來整合空間，健保卡一線維持續行，尚未明確提到兩卡合併或取代。至於12月10日的會議，我再次強調這個是我PO這邊沒有處理好資訊同步的問題，這個是我需要致歉的。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "不好意思，我知道大家對的是應該是整個部會，但容我們今天先focus在署這邊的想法，會後我這邊會再確保內部新一代健保卡案、智慧政府案，兩邊的資訊同步與銜接。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "會這樣問的原因是想要了解部裏的認知，但是跟大家報告智慧政府在談的是希望未來的發展趨勢，並不是談到執行的細節。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "舉一個例子來說，未來希望能夠逐步整合或者是取代健保卡跟駕照的概念上來講，我先轉答與會者的情境，其實在召開會議的時候，有滿多的民間代表會建議，為何政府要發這麼多的卡片或駕照，大家會有一個情境是:有一個eID之後，一定要這個人拿出駕照嗎？如果有拿出eID之後，就可以串聯到監理系統，就可以知道有沒有駕照考證的紀錄、違規紀錄、偷車紀錄等等，所以大家的概念是這樣的情境發想，因此是用類似這樣的概念來思考包含像健保卡的服務或者是駕照，我記得是用這樣的情境概念去做。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "因此跟政委所談的是一樣的情境，確實到目前為止智慧政府發展的範圍來說，其實是一個想法，我相信大家都可以認同，如果今天談到2030年，這也並不是不可能發生，但是前提是eID必須很順利地推行。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "eID推行之後，或許每一個其他單位，像政府或者是民間，就會開始看藉由eID可以發展什麼服務了？那個部分是署內可以更自動自發去做服務流程改造的思考，而不是由任何的政策來強迫或者是規定發或不發，我覺得這個是情境說明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個有兩個客觀的前提條件：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，eID的發卡量要大於現有服務的發卡量；第二，網際網路的可用性，必須要不少於目前不連網服務的可用性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不然駕照一臨檢的時候，連不到網路要讀什麼？這兩個並不是今天馬上有的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩個條件滿足之後，各個服務的提供者，不管是公部門、私部門或者是社會部門，大概都會有動機來調整流程，讓eID可以取用。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我補充說明一下，就我的認知跟聽剛剛大家的描述，這樣的狀況其實應該是到底我們有沒有拿eID卡，有一點像駕照，拿eID卡從醫院串聯到衛福部的資料庫，了解有沒有健保卡的狀況，來做相關健保卡的服務，還是寫回健保局的資料庫，我只是拿另外一張卡去讀？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "不是否定雨蒼，而是就醫時人別確認之後的程序我們不了解，所以不知道當辨識出就醫者後，還需要什麼寫回資料到卡上？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該是說建立在服務提供者，在這個例子上是醫院的後端系統，和健保署有加盟的前提下。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "並不是否定你講的對或者是不對，並沒有辦法說是或否。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "政委強調的那幾個字，像陳主委所說的身分辨識功能，當你辨識完了之後，你後續的程序是怎麼樣，要由服務機關去規劃。未來政府各項的服務，最先要辨識被服務的對象，你知道這個人之後，你要如何提供這個服務，也就是看如何做設計。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "要讀存在這個服務裡面另外的profile或者要怎麼做，這個跟這張卡沒有關係。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有回答到這邊的問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "大家看事情的遠近不太一樣，用的尺度是不一樣的，拉到遠期層次，我相信多數人都會覺得2030、2050年的話，這個方向可行……" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "也必須說從我的角度，即使認同這個遠期願景，還是要務實拉回來看健保署目前要做什麼？將近一年來（甚至更早前幾年）署內做的努力很多，新的這個方向進來後，對原本做的這些規劃又有什麼影響？這也是我想釐清的。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "再確認一下：意思是並沒有任何的政策，要在這個時間點要求健保卡一定要跟eID合併，的確過去以來署內是較持不合併的立場，所以我們還是可以握著健保卡繼續發展；然後若未來eID發展順利，發卡量也很大，屆時也可能我們自己會發現，沒有必要這麼堅持健保卡跟eID不能合併，有可能想自願嫁給對方......對不起用比較白話情境的方式，我想比較好理解。確認一下，以上情境的認知是正確嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是「加盟」，不是「嫁給」。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我個人可以理性上理解，上述說法是想讓我們知道決定權是在我們這邊，不過我個人聽起來整體方向拉到最後面可能往整合到合併的方向走。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "無論如何，這樣就會拉回來到部裡面、署裡面，我們目前已投資許多心力與規劃，在這樣未來的狀況與方向下，我不確定大家怎麼思考？如果接下來會議的時間可以討論一下後續未來發展的路徑有哪幾種，如果盤點一下會有幫助，也幫助署內思考。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天先不處理健保署和衛福部資訊處要同步的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我們已經規劃的這一些想法，在我看起來，跟這個測試計劃是毫無衝突的，但是從你們看起來未必是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看你們有沒有什麼想法？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "同樣一個文字各自解讀。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "提供一個思考方向，法律上有普通法跟特別法，例如民法跟刑法就是普通法，當其他特別法找不到條文適用，就會往民法、刑法找條文適用，eID就有一點像民、刑法的角色，如果各領域有特別的身分辨識及附加功能的卡可用，像健保卡、駕照或是其他的卡，有一點像特別法的角色，也就是屬性上必須優先適用，eID則類似民法、刑法的base角色，當各領域沒有自己特別專屬的身分辨識及特定資格認證的憑證時，eID可當做最後的底線，無論如何最後至少一定可以用eID當身分辨識的方法。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "各個領域裡面有特別法適用屬性的卡或者是身分辨識，應該是允許與eID同時併行，且是優先適用，沒有誰要取代誰的問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對於看到這份逐字稿的朋友們，我想特別說明：未來應用的實際情境，不管是門禁卡、停車卡、市民卡，如果服務提供者認為，要用特定的存取鑰匙才願意提供服務，那eID並不會強制他不準這樣使用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "並沒有說某一天開始，旅館都必須支援用eID開門，而不能只用門禁卡。沒有這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我想舉一個例子，例如國發會員工識別證，其實已結合了自然人憑證，包含在簽公文的時候，其實就用這一張卡來做線上公文的簽核。其實行政院當中也同樣可以這樣做，但也允許同仁，自己有自己的自然人憑證，但是仍然有自己的行政院識別證，兩張是分開來的，因為不願意整合。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我不能說未來一定是這樣，但像我們現在講行動化，現在手機非常普及，所以我們所有的服務不管是政府或者是民間，都會往行動化的方向趨近，所以未來eID成熟了，其實我們的服務，包含民間會往結合的方向去趨近，這個是我們的想法。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "補充一點，對不起，我不是很喜歡民法、刑法與特別法的例子。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "那只是一個比喻。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "民法來講是民事法的公因數，我的理解eID並沒有，只是發卡最普遍，民眾認為最便利的使用狀況之下，如果其他的服務覺得好，也可以用這樣的識別來取得它的鑰匙，可能會比較容易使用，但是並沒有排斥健保卡自己的識別功能、也沒有說健保卡必須以eID作為公因數的這一件事。這個比喻上可能會有一點差別。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "像健保雲端醫療系統我們一直講三卡認證，有醫事機構卡、醫事人員卡及病人卡，如僅用eID作身分辨識，什麼三卡認證都沒有了，僅用eID無法辨識醫師及醫師執業醫療院所身分，不只健保領域，我相信其他領域也有相同問題。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "eID是最後的防線，各個領域當找不到自己專屬的身分辨識的時候，有eID可以完全補足任何的缺漏，但是各個領域要不要用eID來作該領域的身分辨識，應由各領域決定。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "這個說法會變成各個領域，都必須一定要用eID作為身分辨識的工具。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "但就像剛剛政委舉的例子，某一個旅館堅持不要跟eID介接，是完全沒有問題的，所以並沒有公因數的關係。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "但是像您剛剛舉三卡合一的事，我覺得依你們的業務性質來看，因為我覺得三卡是三種角色的概念，並不是真的三張不同實體卡的概念，如果你們未來醫療服務仍然會需要病人的卡要進來、醫師的卡要進來，才能讀取資料，還是會有三張卡，只是這三張卡是三個角色的eID卡（不管是實體或虛擬）連結各相關必要系統辨識身分。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "這樣運作起來會很複雜，而且如果把全國各領域所有身分辨識部分的loading都加在eID上，不知未來該系統可否承受？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "我想這真的有點誤解，包含外界也有這樣的誤解。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "eID並不會註記任何人的身分或職業別的東西，純粹是身分識別。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "他今天是不是當醫生，這個資料理論上是在某一個地方，非eID的其他地方，也許在醫院資料庫裡面註記，或者是在健保署或者是其他的地方註記，並不會註記在那一張卡上。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我補充一個case且類似的狀況。像我們在FB上看到很多心理測驗，會請你用FB帳號登錄，然後就用你的名字、照片，去做一些心理測驗出來之後再回來，但是FB只有取得那一些東西，那只是有一點類似這個狀況，只是一個鑰匙，讓你可以登錄到政府的資料庫，了解這個人在政府資料庫裡面的資料，就這樣而已，本身還是一把鑰匙，並沒有因為這個樣子在鑰匙加了很多不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊都是講身分辨識，在資訊領域裡面是說身分驗證，不過是同一個字，也就是AuthN。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於後面有沒有權限、是不是醫師等等，關係到有沒有授權，這個是AuthZ，這兩個是不一樣的英文字，也是不同的概念。一個是authentication、一個是authorization。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "處長這邊強調的是，我們以前因為網際網路還不發達，往往都把授權資訊寫進卡體裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是eID或者現在自然人憑證，其實根本裡面沒有這個部分，所有AuthZ都要放到網路上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們才說，服務提供者不加盟的話，這一把鑰匙哪裡都打不開，是這個道理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為裡面不會有「我是不是醫師」的儲存空間，也絕對沒有要規劃要放這個儲存的空間。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "所以不會有剛剛您提到，假設是醫療體系覺得這個人要註記醫師，又有其他的身分，像某一個會員，而那個會員又要註記在這一張，不會有這樣的情形。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們再問一個這一次與會者在意的問題，我們這一次的eID的事，會不會影響到虛擬健保卡，就問大家的意見？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "主要是要問大家討論的這一塊。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們還是要繼續討論，就是我們還是要走這一段，要嗎？都已經eID了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就算有eID，不表示……" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "將來也會有虛擬卡吧！一定會吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "還沒有聽說具體的做法。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "未來可能會有走虛擬的趨勢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那是用QR或者是NFC界面？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "我還不是很確定一定這樣，我只是聽說會開發APP，並沒有實際了解是用QR或者是NFC。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們有必要了解。如果要開發QR介面，這邊在測試時……這邊是覺得不用測試嗎？" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "是否不用測試，因為我們測試的結果，內政部不一定會採用。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "其實如果要走到那樣，我們這邊的系統要整個改很多，至少我們要把卡片很多東西放在網路上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是我們當時要測這兩個方案的目的，不就是這樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為QR寫不回手機，當時規劃就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "也改很大。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果這邊不做測試，內政部並不會跑過來把你的醫事系統改好，這大概是做不到的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "QR code只是一個技術標準，並沒有說只能誰來產製。就像新加坡的銀行發的行動支付，你用QR code在支付的時候，就是一套SGQR。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "臺灣pay用的QR，是不同的發卡行跟管轄領域，都是不同的內容。未來去新加坡旅行的時候，如果要用臺灣pay來支付，那會需要在QR上面再架一套國際標準。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是以我的理解，內政部的eID APP即使採用QR介面，也並不會幫你做服務提供者的更改，只是把身份證上的資訊，用機器可讀的方式顯示。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "這邊有一個問題：內政部那邊還沒有明確的情況之下，署內就要開始進行嗎？或者是等內政部那邊確定後署內再動？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我個人覺得這邊似乎有一些不確定性，之前在月會後跟政委請教的時候，政委的判斷是覺得eID如果要走的話，比較可能是走NFC不寫回，但剛剛也有聽到潘處長提到用QR code......這樣似乎有一些不確定性？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "月會後那時提NFC界面，指的是實體卡。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我知道一個是虛擬卡、一個是實體卡，但是我這邊感受到的是有這樣的不確定性。我們要在這個時間點，有不確定的情況下就先go嗎？或者是等內政部那邊比較明確了（再走）？這可能牽涉到一些對技術面的判斷，但我想強調這邊提出來，直白說，我最主要的考量就是不希望讓署內做重工的事，行政上是否造成耗損是務必要考量進去的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我的理解，內政部不會幫你做這一張簡報上的事（指後端醫事服務調整、測試）。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "以我的理解，現在eID有一點像FB，FB有自己的登入介面，而健保卡有一點像Spotify，Spotify要登錄的時候，要到FB登入以後，Spotify會問FB有沒有這個人，然後FB說有、可以信任他，就可以用FB的資料來建帳戶。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "現在討論的健保卡有一點像Spotify這個體系要不要有自己的APP，就像FB有自己的APP，也不會因此讓Spotify有這樣的APP，因此只是這是我們的應用，eID只是去處理身分驗證的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "並不會忽然間讓你這個場域，直接變成可以使用QR介面或NFC介面。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對，大概是這樣。我不知道我的解釋會不會讓你們有一點混淆？" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "因為你舉的例子更高深（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒關係，我想大家現在擔心的是：「我們測了虛擬健保卡的QR code界面，後來發現eID的APP沒有要用QR code界面，所以QR code會不會白測了？」" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是大家最擔心的，講白就是這樣？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "不太懂，為何會白測？如果虛擬健保卡堅持要用QR code，也沒有人說不可以吧？" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我們可以堅持嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "正確。你們可以堅持用QR code做虛擬健保卡，不會有人禁止這件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Mark用白板解釋一下..." }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "我講很細節的。最後一次協作會議在討論QR code本身要包含哪一些資訊才能加速醫療，但是那一些資訊是用eID產出QR code是不會有這一些東西，所以到最後的情境有可能是透過eID認證這個人之後，虛擬健保卡得到，繼續用虛擬健保卡的APP，比較有可能是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "用虛擬健保卡，也就是開發一個虛擬健保卡的服務出來，未來可能是透過eID對手機，來認證、登入這個APP。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "健保署擔心的，是開發完之後，內政部會開發出功能一模一樣的東西來取代。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但這個機率是0。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對，內政部不會做健保署該做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "完全不會有這一種事。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我先舉一個具體的小例子，像署內本來就有一個APP，剛剛有聽到內政部未來也會開發一個APP，這裡是不是有重複的地方？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有，內政部是把身分認證，放到手機裡面而已，全部只做身分辨識功能，和健保快易通或健康存摺的功能無關。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "就像我剛剛的舉例，你有FB APP，也不會取代Spotify APP。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "不好意思技術面我不了解，我再問一下，目前署內第三次協作會議規劃的方案，是在APP也會產生QR code，那這個QR code的產生也會到eID去嗎？" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "不會，包含的東西不一樣。不會因為都採用QR code技術，兩邊就變成一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "完全正確。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "......我先不說話繼續聽，看來我還沒有很懂。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡沒有任何一個部分，是內政部APP幫你做的事。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "要解釋一下QR code是怎麼產生的，這樣比較好理解。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "還沒有很懂（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "舉一個例子來講，現在拿的實體身分證就是個身分證明，到底要把這一張拿來幹麻？需要影印存證或者是掃描條碼把身分資料帶進系統，這個是服務端在做，eID就是未來網路上的身分證，可以讀取到姓名、身分證字號、出生年月日等，讀取資料之後，服務端怎麼跟系統整合、簡化服務流程，是由服務端決定。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "自然人憑證，目前是NFC加上IC，身分證目前是一維條碼。兩個如果結合之後當然會變成一張雙介面的卡，但是上面也有照片等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "未來即使變成一個APP，而這個APP全部做的事，也就是最多上面的事，當然他要把一維條碼變成二維條碼是內政部的自由，他們往這個方向規劃還沒有確定，但是即使這樣，也就是這樣而已。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "剛剛內政部的資訊中心回應，他說是不是要用QR code確認身分的部分，還沒有完全想好，但是現在想到的是用NFC去做晶片憑證還有簽章部分的應用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那就跟現有的自然人憑證一樣，只是放到手機裡面。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "所以內政部並不會幫其他的服務來做任何的事，他就只是單純的身分辨識。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我們學資訊的來講，這個是自明之理。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "eID產生出的QR code，裡面的資料是Mark跟身分證字號。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "虛擬健保卡同樣是產出QR code，但是QR code已經發了是不是有重大傷病註記、兵役，當然這有可能不會放，然後接下來是不是在保，又或者是你已經過保了，或者有無過敏，會包含這一些東西。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "雖然兩個都是QR code，但裡面的內容是不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使走NFC，訊號內容也是一樣，只是從光訊號變成電波訊號而已。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "QR code這個條碼上，黑色是1、白色是0，就是把這一些東西轉成0101畫出來而已，所以eID產生出來的QR code，不會有健保的資料。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "根本沒有健保的資料。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "我不懂，未來健保卡不是採虛實併行，所以呢？如果是老人家，也沒有虛擬卡...。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "反正這兩張虛擬卡QR code的內容是不同的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "如果是老人家，他不要虛擬卡，他要實體卡。實體卡在哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "健保卡。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "照發？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "從頭到尾，都沒有人說健保卡停發。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "現在先不要笑我們啦，我們還沒有很理解。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "怎麼很像取代。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那是杯弓蛇影。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "離線的健保卡是不會被取代的。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "那個是你說的，什麼時候會被取代不知道。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "什麼時候離線也不知道。什麼時候狀況之下是沒有辦法的。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "等於要繞一段路做，如把全國各個領域的身分辨識部分都全由eID做，系統能量是否能夠負荷？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果不能負荷，那就不用做eID了。" }, { "speaker": "曾玟富", "speech": "健保卡可以一次同時做完的事，包含身分辨識跟特定的用途，為何身分辨識部分還要繞到eID去check？不是徒增網路通訊的負擔？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上確實，像今天去機場取票，你也可以說，大家都有健保卡，為何還要用eID去取機票？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此這邊的論述，是奠基在以後eID的發卡量大於健保卡上。如果還沒有到達這個狀態，當然你的論述就一直都適用，我想這邊沒有人在爭執這一點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是有一個前提：eID發卡量大於健保卡。但是即使到那一個點，我們都沒有覺得會透過法令，或者是其他的方式，要求健保卡停發。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我拿eID可以取得健保卡，並且用健保卡來就診的話，對使用者來講只是拿著eID卡而已，對你們來說也沒有什麼不便，只是背後的系統去做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我同意，所以在離線情境，或者是網路還沒有到位的情境下，並沒有人說就要停發健保卡。這我可以講大概十次。" }, { "speaker": "Mark", "speech": "健保卡有一個優勢，可以把部分的看病資訊存在這個卡裡面，但是就算eID實體卡裡面有空間，也不會讓你存這一些東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "正確。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們沒有辦法做到百分之百發訊均存到雲端，必須要留一些在卡片上，這樣資料最完整。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "如果那一句話再狹隘，想拿著eID也可以去掃QR code，然後就可以去看病，還是依然要拿出我的健保卡才可以看到其他的資料，以及看完病之後再存進去，那張卡也是要存在吧！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要存回資料的情況下。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "如果要做到百分之百資料完整性的話，那健保卡不出現，要寫到哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實，就沒有地方寫，如果網路建置還沒有純雲端化的情況。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "以後科技好一點，可以直接寫入雲端，還是有網路不及的地方，那個動作要如何完成？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們剛剛講的是前提條件。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "你永遠不知道什麼時候是網路不work的情況，要完成看病跟做這個動作，因此不太理解這一句話對我們來說是短期、中期或者是長期。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "電子化政府一開始，也有如果沒有電的情況下、無法發電的情況等等，我們還是要留下紙本的抄本。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或者是完全沒有光照的情況下，也就是在黑暗的空間裡面，也許需要給視障者的設計等等，這個都有，並不是沒有，這個叫做通用設計。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是總是會到某一個程度，有電的情況是佔絕大多數，就是99.999％，大家會假設有電的情況是一般的服務，真的沒電的地區，再用別的方式去彌補。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們現在當然，寬頻網路還沒有到達有電的程度，因此現在的規劃都是雙軌併行，這個有明文寫在《政府數位服務準則》裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這邊講的是2030年、2050年，未來也許某一天，有寬頻網路這一件事也許會跟現在有電一樣，那也許服務的規劃可以進行調整，我應該沒有誤解兩位的意思吧？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "沒有誤解。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我不知道是不是太細節的層次，但我需要具體一點的例子來想像。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我現在有理解不是要取代健保卡的全部，而是要取代健保卡的身分識別功能。具體來說以下認知正確嗎：" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "在網路通順的情況之下，有可能健保卡是不需要出現的，用eID就可以完成整個就醫；在網路不通的情況之下，這時則一定是健保卡的實體卡。所以整體盤點下來的話，除非有一天臺灣任何一寸土地都有網路（這聽起來很難完全實現），否則就會維持實體健保卡存在的必要性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實「短期內」很難完全實現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但寬頻是人權，未來還是要實現的。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "如果網路通，尤其其實現在滿多院所都是網路暢通的情況下，則可以用的是目前協作會議討論中的健保卡的虛擬卡，另外也可以用eID的實體卡（NFC的功能）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你就當作是自然人憑證。現在已經有了。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "嗯，不寫入。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是自然人憑證。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "網路通的情況除了健保卡虛擬卡、eID實體卡，聽起來未來eID也會有QR code虛擬卡方案？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "那個是APP，將來就可以出示手機上app資料。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "上面會有類似像QR code的條碼。這樣理解正確？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "還沒有確定。也許是直接show在APP上就相當於拿出一張身分證一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "未來eID的虛擬卡，我覺得先不用擔心。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個是界面還沒有確定，第二個是如果你處理了自然人憑證的部分，也就是eID實體卡的話，那虛擬eID也就相當於模擬這張卡。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "eID的虛擬卡就會是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "eID的虛擬卡，就是手機忽然間變成一張自然人憑證。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "資訊都在手機上看得到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "資訊是身分證字號跟姓名。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "就是那幾個key。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "沒有特別的東西。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "有沒有照片？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "現在還在規劃當中。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "想像有一張實體的eID之後，手機上有一個APP，打密碼或者是驗證之後，show出來之後就有個人資訊內容。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "意思是不管前面身分識別是什麼，eID或健保卡虛擬卡，它都要可以對接到醫院院所。而，不管未來是什麼情境，這個都是衛福部要處理的，內政部不會處理這端。這樣理解正確？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "完全正確。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來，我們是不是可以回到簡報？第6頁有需要回答的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，如果我們要做iOS實驗，確定的話，我可以寫信給Apple，這是我馬上可以做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "具體的問題是，未來會搭在哪一個APP上？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "快易通。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那要請你們開發人員把APP store帳號，不需要給我密碼，給我Apple ID，就是在APP store的網址。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我從外面拿也可以，但是我想確定有一個email，我就轉給Apple，就說未來這個APP希望能夠管理NFC的卡片，希望Apple加到白名單。請你們的廠商給我這一封email。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，未來eID在身分辨識的時候，以我的理解，就跟現在的自然人憑證完全一模一樣，但是在存取服務的時候，是回到服務提供者的系統，所以如果覺得好比像個資或者是醫療資料，希望繼續走VPN，那是服務提供者決定的。eID不會幫各位決定。沒有錯吧？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然eID有一個憑證撤回清單，以我的理解，這個是透過一般的網際網路就可以下載。那個是好比像我的eID掉了，我要撤回它的憑證。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對，只是失效的身分證。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只是失效的清單，其實也不包含內容的更改等等，只是說某一張eID以後讀出來就不要用它了，這一個部分當然是透過網際網路在傳，並不會透過VPN。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但這個跟醫療服務毫無關聯，除此之外也沒有別的需要下載的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩個是技術問題，看大家有沒有想要討論的？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "報告政委，這個簡報其實要交代一下明年3月是藍芽方案的進度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "至於試辦的部分要找場域、經費，還要有院所的意願，這一些等等是需要花一點功夫，為何要這樣講？因為其實現在醫院的場域，配合我們的雲端醫療系統，大家都兵荒馬亂，是不是需要環境，還需要一個團隊，也就是需要醫院端、診所端，我們需要一點作業時間。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "經費其實也沒有任何準備，這個到底要多少的經費，現在還不太有概念，跟試辦規模也有關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前的會議紀錄是，如果你們估得出來，我們就會往科發基金那邊去詢問。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "明年的科發不是都訂了？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "巧菁有幫忙問過一個比較快的方式。" }, { "speaker": "彭巧菁", "speech": "是一種跨部會型的科發基金。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "明年拿得到嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是以三個月為一期。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "三個月要結束？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "一季審一次。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不受年度預算限制。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "必要的時候可以加開會議。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "規模是多少錢？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "做試驗可以，但是不可能做全面性支持。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "經費規模是？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "要看你們的規劃怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "彭巧菁", "speech": "幾千萬應該沒問題。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "幾千萬啊？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "這個資訊應該要夠能cover，不然這個很難估計，醫院那一端要做怎麼樣的成本投入，如果要醫院成本吸收，現在不太可能，如果要經費補助，比較有機會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "估這個研究也可以，就是用比較小的成本。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "先研究再實作，就變成兩階段。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那當然。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "經費現在並沒有準備好是一個問題，也要有試辦意願，要有一個類似寫RFP的標案出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "按照數位服務準則，這幾次協作會議，就是確保使用者能夠接受進入這個測試場域，必須要做哪一些準備，這個部分很可能需要一個規劃週期，這個是沒有問題的，不管這個規劃案本身或者是這個規劃案的試辦，這都是可以規劃的項目。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "這個可以比較了解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是一季審一次。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "向誰申請？" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "科發基金管理委員會。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "要行文嗎？" }, { "speaker": "彭巧菁", "speech": "在科技部。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們回去跟署長報告一下，看署長覺得我們要怎麼樣開始，因為這等於是另外一個開始。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "是不是要關心eID那邊，是不是要再次釐清，不曉得是不是有機會透過政委幫我們釐清，因為政委了解我們這一端，因為剛剛講了一輪了，就是很像並不是很明確。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會，我們這邊高度一致，資管處同仁講的每一個字我都同意（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "但是我覺得很像不知道，如果確定的話，我們比較好往下看要怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在不確定的，是未來eID虛擬卡的NFC介面是否走得通。但這個太後面了，現在不用想這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "對，不用等待，也不要急。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "長官看到這樣的會議紀錄，會覺得我們不要做了，感覺上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們很願意一一說明。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "感覺上，你有沒有覺得？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我第一次看紀錄根本沒有看到「身分識別」，只是看到「取代健保卡」這幾個字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我能理解，這是創傷觸發（trauma trigger）的關鍵字，這個我了解。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "還要再花力氣，何必呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解，我很願意不斷地陪伴跟說服。也就是實務上這一些字，並不是各位想像的意思。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "國發會都要有一致的共識才可以。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "不要國發會又對外說了一些跟我們理解不一樣的事，我們會覺得很挫敗到底怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "就我們的理解，我們長官的認知跟政委所說這一排的認知是一樣的，即使昨天在余宛如委員座談會上的發言，也都是非常強調：就是身分識別，而且說裡面並沒有任何其他的資料，也不會放其他的資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "既沒有寫回功能，也沒有強制其他的專用卡寫回eID，完全沒有這些早期兩卡合一的見解。這完全不存在主委的發言裡。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "這一句話粗略地解釋是取代健保卡。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "要把後面的字一起唸完。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "對，沒有錯，但是很容易就進入這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "張鈺旋", "speech": "他講的是不是對？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "還有媒體朋友的解讀。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "對，媒體報導是……" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "對啊！我覺得這個是……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我理解，像幾個字連在一起就會有不好的印象，像「亞洲矽谷」就是一個例子。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "所以要加一個點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「亞洲・矽谷」，要把聯想斷開。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "再這樣做下面，大家會覺得算了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。我們盡可能不要在視覺上那麼……" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "這個是在我們這邊講的，不是所有的人都要有共識，不然很麻煩。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們想這個應該滿清楚，我會把這一份逐字稿裡面相關段落，再次在政務會議時跟主委確認。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "因為會議紀錄是發給所有相關單位，大家都有收到，所以留下來的是會議紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這份會議紀錄，之後「身分識別功能」這六字，看有沒有可能大家傳的時候加底線、粗體、配一張長輩圖。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "大家很容易陷入這樣的想法。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "我只是一個建議，如果未來有提議的話，就寫：取代「健保卡的『識別功能』」。要加引號。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "會議紀錄會寫的就是那幾個字而已。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "聽起來不管eID的發展如何，一定會發生的是，不論用eID或健保卡虛擬卡，院所端那邊還是我們可能須處理的。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "但我想我們可能需要先經過一些內部確認、釐清的過程，再決定後續方向。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "因為如果只是取代健保卡識別功能，然後健保卡還要拿出來，為什麼有人要看一次病拿兩張卡？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，不會發生這個情況。但是像我去松山機場，好比像2021年開始，可能是拿eID出來取票。這裡「身分識別功能」講的是一般性的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "如果是這樣的話，何必把健保卡帶入？因為看病的時候，不可能一個人看一個病拿兩張卡出來用，實際上如果健保卡還在的話，就一路用到底了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "確實。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "按照政委的情境，也有包含eID走到底的情境？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那也是在院所充分配合的前提下做。如果院所和健保署不把後端架起來，我們目前也沒有說大家一定要把這套東西寫起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果把後端支援做好，當然你們就可以完整支援eID走到底，但這是很久以後的事。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "長官看這個內容跟我們現在在講的會有距離，理解為何還要弄這一些。" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "所以還要跟長官講。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "目前待辦事項都做不完了，因為會覺得政策都決定了，我們配合就好了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是這樣的話，在你們想像中，內政部會幫你們寫好的東西（指後端支援），永遠也不會自動發生。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "所以對於內政部那個部分我們也不太理解，內政部原來的主張是身分證跟自然人憑證合併？" }, { "speaker": "潘國才", "speech": "現在也是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在是身分證發卡量比較大、自然人憑證發卡量很少。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "eID是打算把身分證擴大到十四歲以下，然後同時把自然人憑證發卡量擴大，整個eID的plan就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "身分證的照片怎麼辦？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不知道。或許可以自己更新照片檔。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我們先講原先健保署規劃的健保卡虛擬化的模式是:我有一個虛擬的健保卡，在醫療院所端可以讀取虛擬健保卡之後，讀取的同時其實也只是做到身分的識別，後端就可以看等診之類的，看診的資料並不會寫入虛擬健保卡。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "同樣的情境，換過來它就是一個eID，我在醫療院所端就是讀取這個eID，同樣做身分識別、進行後續的程序，看完病的這一段也不會寫回。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "健保卡虛擬卡有可能寫回、有可能不寫回。第三次協作會議兩種都有討論到。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "不寫在虛擬卡上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "NFC當時有規劃可寫回跟不寫回，只有QR code是絕對不寫回。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "概念上來講，這一套試辦之後，虛擬健保卡換成eID而已，模式是可以透過這樣的試辦，來思考未來真的要用eID去就診這一件事的情境。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果這些流程試辦到最後，發現大家都排斥，那可以回過頭來告訴eID說，沒有辦法加盟虛擬eID，或者是沒辦法加盟NFC自然人憑證的流程，因為這個流程的試辦結果是很不ok。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "署內說為何要用兩張卡，我們也不太理解，因為我們的意思是，假設那個情境是拿eID出來，就讀取辨識身分之後就可以就診，因此規劃健保卡虛擬化模式的概念是一樣的，所以並不會拿完eID之後還要再拿健保卡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這跟試辦「NFC不寫回」流程的意思是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "署這邊的意思是，為何要花力氣做試辦，為何不就算了？就只用IC晶片就好了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然這個為什麼，我們在協作會議有過許多闡述，我就不再重複說。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我要講的是，即使你們找了一個院所試辦，發現「NFC不寫回」的流程有各種困難，比起目前一張IC卡交給院所、跑現有的流程，有許多事前無法預料、窒礙難行之處，這樣子你們未來，可以作為服務提供者，去闡述不能支援eID的理由；但是如果不試，沒有人知道。這是很簡單的道理。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "政委對我們有什麼指示？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不是指示，但我建議還是要測試。因為測試出來，如果不滿意，這個以後你們提出來給長官，說需要進一步改善，那是很明確的證據。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是如果沒有測的話，很容易大家會覺得「愛沙尼亞都有做，為何臺灣沒有做」，對於這樣的期待，這邊會沒有任何證據去抵抗。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們回去再跟長官報告，不確定目前長官catch到的是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "長官層級的會議不會談那麼細，資訊量應沒有這麼多。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "長官會看到12月10日的這個會議紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "Peggy", "speech": "但是應該沒有辦法理解到這麼多。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "光是這樣的文字，長官們看到時可否理解……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不管對各級的公務同仁，我都有時間，任何時候都可以約他們討論。我可以花幾個小時，慢慢同步。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "請Peggy同步。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天就到這裡？" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "謝謝政委、兄弟姐妹，半年多來陪伴我們，三次協作會議也投入非常多，花的力氣也很多，我們同時間也收獲非常多，這一個議題畢竟是很好的公共議題，透過這樣子的討論，事實上參與的協作會議邀請的人，很多人也認為滿正面的，也就是政府願意用這樣的方式來溝通，不管人數多少，參加的人有這樣的體會，因此我再次感謝大家，特別是政委協助我們、指導我們這一段時間的協作會議。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "雖然同仁也投入很多，但畢竟我們過去也沒有協作會議的經驗，因此真的感謝，不管怎麼樣，這一段的經驗我們會留下來；無論未來怎麼樣，我們總是曾經一起努力過，為了想像中的健保卡努力過，真的非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "三次協作會議完之後，竟然看到這一些會議紀錄，我們也覺得也是告了一個段落，大家也都很辛苦，如何去釐清轉折點及未來的方向也是有待政委這邊再看看，因為國發會或者是行政院距離我們很遠，我們也很難即時了解。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "另外，內政部那邊開始會啟動，所以那邊是不是會隨著時間有什麼樣的改變，我們也不是完全地理解，但是健保這個制度還是一直在運作當中，無論如何我們現在這一些事情還是依然會在健保卡上去做，這個是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "另外，隨著我們現在雲端系統的發達，我們現在很多的服務都透過VPN，特別明年把所有跟我們合約醫療院所的VPN都由我們佈建，費用由我們承擔下來，強迫院所要建足夠多的VPN。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "因為全部補助了，所以會更快地佈建，以後網路的流通會更加地迅速、確實，也就是代表我們這一段的醫療資訊，不管是架構或者是思維也好，我們也會隨著方向去做很快的蛻變，這都是進行中的事，並不會因為這一張卡如何而改變。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "未來這一張卡片究竟是叫做eID或者是識別功能也好等等，我們自己的功能，我們也會重新思考。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "但是這一段時間到底有多長，現在沒有人知道，我們眼前還是有很多需要排除的障礙，比如偏鄉的網路不通等等，我們也不會不理它，至少解決現在的問題、大家的困難也很重要，因此我們在這邊跟大家報告一下，再次感謝大家的協助，也謝謝政委。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝，明年第二季見。至少大家新曆年、舊曆年，都可以好好休息一下。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "那三次的會議，如果有任何不懂或者未來廠商不理解，請隨時跟我們講，我們都可以幫你們跟廠商報告。" }, { "speaker": "蔡淑鈴", "speech": "我們帶了一些年終的筆記本送給大家，謝謝！" } ]

[ { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "我想請政委聊一下，其實您是臺灣第一個數位政委，也宣布退休之後被找來，當初你答應這個職位的起心動念是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "你一定有想要改變些什麼東西？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "那為何會答應？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "完全是出於興趣。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "什麼興趣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "想要更認識臺灣這個社會，來幫助公務員。我那時有一個說法，是當「公僕的公僕」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "公務員雖然非常專業，但是在直接面對民眾，尤其中央各部會的公務員，去給出一個完整交代的這件事，其實公務員心裡是會怕的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對於這一種直接的溝通，不管是恐懼的情緒、不確定的情緒，又或者是懷疑的情緒，因為對大部分的公務員來講，直接溝通的經驗很多是可能在立法院，他們長官被質詢時列席的經驗，或者是高度爭議性事情時，公聽會上一些不一定非常愉快的經驗，或者單獨接受陳情的時候，承受各方壓力等等的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "想到直接溝通，公務員會忽然間就覺得很開心的，大概是少數。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的工作是「公僕的公僕」，就是運用一些數位的技術，讓公務體系了解到，「透明」是把我們的工作過程讓大家知道，「當責」是遇到問題給大家交代，這些可以是比較開心的事情，未必要是不舒服的感受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是我最主要想要做的事，但那並不是想要帶來什麼改變，而是讓想要讓帶來改變的人的中間，互相有一個傾聽的經驗，不只是互相對抗的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "所以您的生命經驗裡面，跟公務員的哪些接觸？讓你覺得跟民眾直接溝通，對他們來說是卡住的點？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我家三代都是軍公教。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "所以家裡的談話跟氛圍都會有這一類話題？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。在我外公、爺爺那一代，是在威權體系底下、解嚴之前就從事公共服務，像我外婆是教師，他們當然很注重的一件事是威信。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是在解嚴之後，其實「威信」這個政治概念，並不是很被相信的。你越有權威、越不受信任，這個跟之前的越有權威、越受信任是不一樣的，所以就表示我們公務體系習慣的那種對話模式，本來就必須要修改。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，因為網際網路的出現，所以以前公務體系很習慣對話的幾個主要組織者，不管是各位媒體工作者，或者是一些所謂頭人，又或者是行政體系裡面，當然是有部長、局長等等的這一些官員，這一些組織者彼此達成合意，理論上就決定政策了，但那是因為以前並沒有其他很有效的方法，把幾萬人組織起來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在有網際網路，你只要有一個梗、一個hashtag，10萬人就可以上街頭。所以一開始的組織者，並不是事前可以預料得到，事實上可能就是PTT幾個鄉民聊一聊，之後就25萬人了。這個情況下，原本的這種跟特定人之間彼此溝通的模式，也必須要進行修改，才可以跟這一些新冒出來、不特定的倡議者直接溝通。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前倡議者因為沒有網際網路，所以橫向組織比較弱，說不定倡議團體裡面的狀態，比政府裡面還要威權。所以找到倡議團體的頭人、說服他，就結束了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是現在並不是這樣。即使他被說服了，其他人就再弄一個倡議團體，現在重新組織是一件非常容易的事。所以本來後面這些邏輯，就要進行一些調整。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "這過程有沒有跟想像不一樣的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "完全一樣嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我本來就沒有什麼想像。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "有什麼困難嗎？在做這一件事上？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這主要是文化工作，文化並不是一蹴可及的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們在推永續發展目標，從宏觀的角度來看，這個概念非常簡單：不要犧牲下一代或下三代的世界，來做到我們這一代想做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個概念很簡單，但後面隱含著很多我們習慣的生活方式調整，包含平常做一個經濟行為，以前或許不需要給社會或環境一個交代，可以純粹做經濟行為，但現在如果不給社會或環境一個交代，這個經濟行為本身，可能就是不永續的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "光是這一個想法，我還沒有講到任何特定的永續發展目標，光這一個想法，認同的人可能不少，但具體知道這個概念如何轉換成日常行為改變的，可能就比較少。所以大家都覺得這是好的方向，但具體到底做出什麼調整，這有時間上的差距。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你要說困難或者是挑戰，這就是困難及挑戰。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "了解。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "數位的部分，你有覺得因為這兩年來妳作為溝通的橋梁，或者是做了一些事，致使情況改善嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或許不是直接改善現況，而是讓大家彼此抵銷的情況減少，比較願意從彼此抵銷掉，到一起創造出一些什麼東西來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一些具體的案例，像報稅軟體那個案子，不管是多少人在網路上嗆聲要財政部長下台、關貿網路怎麼樣，以前的體系總是如何解釋問題，而不能解決這個問題。因為我們採取一個很明確的態度：「邀會吵的朋友進廚房」，在這樣的情況之下，見面三分情，大家看到五區國稅局朋友、關貿網路的朋友，有些人身攻擊的字就講不出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們是把網友的批評指教去掉驚嘆號之後，具體貼出來，讓知道大家第一手的經驗真的不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這時如果用很冰冷的數字，當然可以說一起創作出來的報稅軟體，贊同率達到96％等等，但是我覺得這比較不是重點，因為只要砸錢就可以做出這種作品來。重點是這個過程中沒有砸錢，反而因為大家集思廣益，而有省到錢。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在這個過程中，大家覺得一磚一瓦都是我們一起做出來的，所以這個新介面，當然大家剛開始也不一定非常習慣，但我們看到提案人、連署人、參加工作坊的人，他們的親朋好友，都志願來幫忙做客戶服務，甚至4％不滿意我們的人，也了解到他們的想法，在明年會進入這一個系統裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我覺得，倒不是我個人造成什麼改變，我自己什麼都沒有做。單純只是讓這一些抗議、倡議的音量，能夠在最大的程度上，成為共同創造的能量。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "接下來另外一個好奇是社會創新行動方案。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "這兩年政委很頻繁與第一線組織接觸，聽了很多他們做的事跟面對的困難，這兩年下來，您自己觀察到臺灣的社會創新處於什麼階段？因為您Open House的時間很長？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "臺灣做社會創新，我們在這裡的意思是，對於社會有公益的事情，在整個社會的參與下，來改變社會的彼此關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣的開放式創新，其實從解嚴以前就已經開始有了，當然解嚴之後就各個運動都開始投入社會創新。這也造成有一個很有趣的現象，臺灣最早一批投入社會創新的朋友，不管是主婦聯盟、喜憨兒、慈濟等等，都是在第一次總統直選之前，就已經捲動民間到一定程度，所以意思是在他們關注的領域上，有時正當性比政府來得高，這個是很有意思的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以當時雖然不是用社會創新這個字，但是事實上做的是去捲動社會力量、改變社會關係，像「喜憨兒」三個字就已經是社會創新，因為本來很少人用醫學名詞稱呼，所以光是改變這個說法，就已經是改變我們對他們的社會涵融。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在這些朋友，也都非常致力於跨世代、多元化、設計思考經營，那個想像打開了，不只是做餅乾——像我有跟他們學烘焙——但像這邊很多公共藝術，有一個足球場、桌球桌等等，本來是讓他們做藝術治療，後來發現他們做出來的藝術，藝術家也畫不出來。所以我想很多改變，是已經發生了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩年，我覺得最重要的，還是大家是不是願意在同樣的基礎之上，像我剛剛講的「永續」等規範性理念的基礎上，去分享彼此做的事。也就是有很多山頭，也都經營得很高了，是不是願意連成山脈？這個是最主要的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像今年5月在台中辦「明日亞洲」，我很感動，因為之前每年喜憨兒在高雄辦，社企流在台北辦，很多組織各自辦活動。今年大家願意挑一個中間點，大家搭高鐵過來都花一樣的時間成本，然後去把大家的力量集合在一起，運用永續的概念來做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這一種跨組織者的組織工作，是現在我們如果要突破這個挑戰，也就是大家「不明覺厲」的這個現況，也就是「不太知道具體怎麼社會創新，但是很願意支持社會創新」的情況，變成「不但很認同社會創新，而且我知道要做什麼事情」。要讓這個鴻溝可以跨越的話，組織者彼此間的組織是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "在這個階段？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "我們可以做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "非常多事情。好比說，可以到〈新創圓夢網〉的社會創新登記。這個登記的意義，是願意隨時出來給社會一個交代。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "是一個宣示的動作？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們希望的，不管是合作社、NPO或者是公司型態的組織，到這裡登記只是表示：你們的使命願意跟所有的人分享、你們願意列出能和大家建立關係的服務或者是商品。實際每年檢視造成什麼社會的改變，像影響力或者是公益報告，也有平台讓你揭露。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以就是使命、經營模式、影響力的這三個揭露。當然每個社群對彼此的想像都不一樣，所以這裡其實是問責的地方。好比說如果有人寫一篇文章，認為你們應該適用《勞基法》僱佣關係的時候，這邊提供一個管道，讓起心動念的人能給出一個交代。這個跟一般以前只要對股東、社員、理事負責的情況很不一樣。在這邊登記的意思，是願意跟整個社會來作交代。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "但是揭露跟串聯還是兩個階段？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，先揭露再串聯。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "串聯是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要看組織的方法。好比說，你們的方法是讓對話發生。我們這邊的做法，是確保任何人只要做永續，不管是做17項的哪幾項，都可以免費來使用這個場地。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個場地的好處是，開到半夜11點，所以活動不管辦到再晚，後面都有一段時間去跟同時進行其他活動的組織者互相認識、交流，因為如果7點或者是8點就關門了，其實大家就各自帶開了，就不會有跨團體、組織的交流，而且到了晚餐時間的時候，這邊的主廚就會煮東西進來給大家吃，大家在咖啡廳就會分享食物。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "創新的觀點在第一次遇到時，如果沒有燈光好、氣氛佳，大家會不習慣。所以我們要盡量創造有創造力的環境，讓你第一次聽到這個創新的觀點時，不急著判斷這個是好的或者是壞的，而是願意讓這個觀點進入你的思考範圍裡面，然後跟它相處久一點，我們全部要的就是這個。至於到最後會有什麼樣的結果，那個是要實際實作才會知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這邊是一個孵化的地方，但並不是只針對進駐團隊，而是任何願意在這邊進行活動的團隊，因此大概是用這樣的方式，如果專門講這個場地的話。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，我們也會這樣的SOP，也就是「把這個場地的運作規則，交給場地的使用者決定」的想法擴散到全臺灣。各地只要有這一種能夠活化的空間，願意用社會創新的方法來進行重新設計，我們未來就會說這也是社會創新實驗中心，所以社會創新實驗中心，並不是只有在空總而已。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "像剛剛政委所講的很多，其實經營很久的組織必須要串聯，那一些對新的組織來說，你覺得他們迫切需要的幫忙是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "新的組織，還是需要在既有的組織中間找到串聯的位置。做社會創新的方法，既然是要讓整個社會認同你做的這個改變，真的是未來的一個可能方向，就等於讓大家看到某種未來透過你而來臨，這個是社會創新的一般做法。所以，如果你沒有辦法去讓現有的組織者看到，他那個組織也可以因為這種做事方法而有什麼改變的話，本來就很難創造很大的動能。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我覺得這邊的好處是，不管是跟office hour或者是巡迴全臺灣座談，都有非常詳實的紀錄，大家都是用關鍵字搜尋，就可以看到全臺灣關注這個議題的有哪一些人。所以反過來講，很多人說到office hour社創巡迴的時候，最有價值的並不是跟我講到話，而是跟其他朋友換到名片，以及有留下關鍵字，未來搜尋可以找得到他。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是新創團隊的話，可以很快測試這樣的創新，大概在現有的這一些組織網絡裡面，你的位置在哪裡，可以產生最大的效力。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "最後一個問題，政委跟大家接觸的機會很多，大家期待您可以幫忙做一些幫忙，但是您回頭到組織的內部，真正做社會創新並不是缺方法，並不是要改法規或者是技術很難，這個都可以解決？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這些都是以每週為週期在解決。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "反而是容易的。所以人的事跟創新最大的困難，是原有的權力結構跟慣性難以改變，你作為中間的橋梁，如何看待這些，如何去處理？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想Buckminster Fuller有一句話講得很好，他說：「一個舊的系統，當你看到它的缺陷時，改變它的方法並不是跟它鬥爭、挑戰或攻擊，而是做出一個新的系統，然後舊的系統慢慢就沒有人用。」就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個是最基本的改變理論，你剛剛講的權力結構存在，很多是透過習慣而存在，並不是依法而存在，也並不是依物理定律而存在。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果講成一個「結構」，其實稍微有一點誤導，好像說有什麼物理定律，但是事實上並不是這樣，而是一群人做事的習慣、慣性而已。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以大家看到有新做事方法的時候，也可以知道原來可以這樣做。我們要的只是這一種「不排斥社會創新」的感受而已，如果這個創新的方法真的是有趣的，而且你投入也不需要太大的成本，大家慢慢就會學到「這樣也不錯」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果是用一種反對、攻擊的方法，對本來的結構做批判，但是又不給他指出一條明路要如何做，那我覺得目前並不缺人指出本來系統的問題。比較缺的是，讓人在一個不排斥的心態下，去看到新的做事方法，所以我大部分的工作都是在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "創造新系統、方法，但是不正面對決原有系統？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "你是否可以舉一個例來說？你創造心方法時，舊系統是什麼、妳創造什麼新系統？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實有非常多例子。像我們的各部會，以前不一定知道其他部會中長程計畫的進度，因為每一個部會代表不同的價值，所以傳統上看得到這個是監察院、國發會管考處，以及感興趣的立法委員，各位媒體工作者在關心議題的時候，都可以透過這些管道，來取得目前進行中的一些資訊。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是當時我在加入行政院的時候就提出來，也就是零時政府2012年底的一個概念，就是「預算視覺化」。每個部會想要做什麼，可能四年期的計畫現在做到第二年、第三年，每一季都要填進度、管考等等，為什麼不把這個直接公開出來？任何人一目了然，就可以知道中央各部會相對的分配、優先順序及達成率等等，這樣的好處，是每個公務員一下子就可以知道跟他類似做的事、政策系統有哪一些部會在做。社會上也不用瞎猜，各位也不用一次次打電話問承辦，其實接到第40通電話，往往是很重複的，來電的朋友也不會知道前面39通都是問同一個問題，這個對大家都沒有好處，這個是多輸的局面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前沒有更好的數位系統，所以目前在Join平台「來監督」，是把各部會1300多項正在進行中的事，管考處看到什麼，上面就有什麼。而且這個是開放資料，每一筆計畫都是一個留言板，在底下都可以進行直接公開的問答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在一開始提出這個做法的時候，其實各部會當時剛組成的開放政府聯絡人，回去問業務單位之後，都是非常保留的。因為本來只有23個人在管考我們，現在變成2300萬人在管考我們，這樣對嗎？同樣的，我也秉持剛剛所講Fuller的概念，我並不是去命令或者是要求他們加入這個平台，而是說行政院管考的60幾個方案，我們先上去，先試個一年看看，這樣子至少行政院各業務處的同仁，可以協助回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們試著做了一年之後，發現攤提來講，其實是省到承辦業務的時間。因為公開回一次，之後別人再問的時候，貼網址就好了。大家看過具體的數據之後，很多問題就消解了，也不一定要再問。即使來抗議，並不是不能抗議，而是抗議的至少是這一季的進度，而不是拿兩年前的報導來抗議。承辦同仁最不想看到的情況，是要為兩年前的某個政策辯護，他可能根本沒有參與制定，而且最新情況也不是這樣，為何要幫它辯護？所以至少確保倡議或者是抗議的朋友，是在最新一季的狀態下來做這一件事，這個也可以省很多力氣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這些加起來、我們試辦一年之後，各部會發現沒有浪費大家的時間，所以到了今年所有的部會都加入了。除了國家機密、我看不到的之外，所有非機密的都在上面，所以1300多項，大家有很多關心，像長照、社會住宅，上面都有具體的規劃。如果看到去年試辦的，像金門大橋等等都有具體的規劃，非常多的例子，這個是結構性的。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "我要問的到這邊。因為他們三位其實組織的年齡，像偉翔其實是第一年做組織，凱翔是第五年，勵馨是到三十年，他們有各自不同的狀況，他們也會問一些跟組織有關的事，他們也會有各自關心的議題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們要換位置嗎？" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "應該不用吧！" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我延續剛剛的問題，再問非營利組織的問題。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "唐鳳政委一直在建立各議題相關利害關係者的串聯或者是溝通的平台，以降低大家溝通的成本，這一件重要的事。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "如果站在部會的角度，在成熟前就已經公開的話，就會有夭折的可能，因為並不是每一個議題的生態系都這麼明理或者是一個議題不同意見的人勢力都是均衡的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是所謂的見光死。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "是。臺灣越來越多非營利組織，尤其青年投入這一塊，作為青年來說，因為他們可能也不太理解政府的語言，也不知道怎麼運作、接洽及講話，像這樣的非營利組織如何去知道、如何到對話的頻率，尤其是對向政府單位？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這兩個都是非常好的問題，首先我並不是強迫，像國防部、陸委會，說所有的人都要用這一套方法來運作。我的態度是「全力支持、絕不主導」。如果願意用這樣的方式來討論的，我會不斷地示範，覺得適合這樣討論的就會來找我們，像剛剛報稅軟體或者是健保卡的行動化、虛擬化，那都是各部會覺得利害關係人真的是全民，因為大家都要報稅、用健保，所以不應該只用本來的討論方式，而是應該要擴大討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而確實如你所說的，並不是每一個政策議題都像是報稅或者是健保卡的議題。很多政策議題的利害關係方之間，可能存在高度不信任，甚至有一方特別強、其他特別弱的情況，在這樣的情況下，這個方式也有調整的空間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "舉例來說，像逐字稿的公開也不是當天公開，一般的原則是要編輯十個工作天。這個也很有趣，本來是十個日曆天，有一次碰到連假，公務同仁說這樣連假也不能休息，所以後來要求改成十個工作天。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此從這個例子，就可以看到我完全只是給建議，大家覺得有更好的做法，我們就會換成更好的做法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以有些部會就會覺得他們需要更長的時間，他們還是做逐字紀錄、內部的透明溝通，還是讓所有三級機關、二級機關對齊在同樣的基礎上，但是對外公開的時間，他們會等到協作會議時再公開，或者是法規確定的時候才公開。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "同樣的，如果有一些媒體朋友來採訪我，我說要逐字稿公開，他們會希望我們等刊出後一天再公開。這都是有彈性的，並不是要破壞掉大家本來的節奏。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在節奏可以自己設定的情況下，其實這個接受度就比較高，當然事後都會完整公開，這樣有一個好處，大家不用腦補，不用覺得這中間一定是有什麼陰謀。就算事後才公開，我們也可以回溯知道當初的why，也就是「何要討論政策的」片刻可以留下來。這當然並不是對當下的權力關係就有幫助，但是有助於日後的權力平衡，因為每個人都有完整地圖，不只是被邀去開會的那幾個人有。因此這個是比較漸進式、穩健推動的一套開放做法，這個是第一個問題的回答。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我覺得現在的公務員，本來也就需要這一種轉譯的能力。如果是特定的字眼，像「要難非謂其不得不」，司改那邊已經很明確，未來連文字編輯器都會有自動更正，當你用到某些文言文的時候，會自動跳出提示說要不要講人話。這些特定文言詞彙，我想包含年輕的公務員都不樂見的，我們就會改掉，但是我想你問的並不只是這一些詞彙，而是講話的習慣、做事的習慣，像剛剛講的節奏等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是牽涉到公共行政的一些常識。我們為何會把內部會議，像社會創新相關的會前會，也都用逐字稿公開？主要是看那一些會前會的紀錄，才能了解到部會被外面說本位主義，有時並不是本位主義，而是各自有堅持的價值、倡議，但是這個如果只看最後的會議紀錄，是看不到的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "又或者是公務員常常會運用一些統計、數據、民調等等。這一種運用數字的習慣或者是方法，如果你去看會前會紀錄的話，其實後面都有想要藉由這一些數字講到的價值、論述。這些到發新聞稿、轉成懶人包的時候，可能還是看到這一些數字，但比較沒有看到「為何當初要提出這一個研究案」，或者是這一些數字的脈絡 。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以第一，當然跟你相關的逐字稿，這真的可以去看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，各個部門也都有一些公務員，他們會自己組成社群，不要說年輕的，其實很多壯年、老年的公務員，他們也都有自己在第三部門服務的時間。所以我的具體建議是，去找到這一些組織，不管是年輕的公務員，像現在有公務員革新力量聯盟等等的組織，又或者是你在地方的，像我們這個地方，每個禮拜三晚上的vTaiwan以個人身分來參加，所以就是去到他們出沒的地方、捕獲他們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "公務員下班之後跟大家也沒有兩樣，在那樣的狀態下會比較願意告訴你，如果看到的書面官方文章是這樣，其實我們真正的意思是什麼。所以找到轉譯者，這個也是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "最後，像我們社創巡迴，大家在各個地方、透過視訊，看到中央所謂的業務承辦人，大部分是科長級，這些朋友們見面三分情，看到你、認識你，知道你並不是亂來的，你也知道他是有血有肉的人，之後不要吝惜打電話、寫email。如果一開始的態度不是就立刻要看到什麼改變方式，而是想要多了解他為什麼這樣子講，那大部分的人會願意來回應。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是說，把自己先當一個媒體工作者、而不是倡議者的態度。用這個態度，其實大部分的公務員是願意好好談的。以上是三個建議。" }, { "speaker": "陳凱翔", "speech": "我這邊想要問的，因為在做社會創新非營利組織這幾年，其實最困難的並不是第一線開設什麼樣的培訓課程，而是有社會上意識形態的不同，像在做移工的例子，社會大眾對外勞有偏見的，這個是最難改變的，我想問的是怎麼樣用數位工具的方式突破同溫層，來改變對這一些外勞的偏見，又或者是如何去衡量這一種意識形態改變的成效？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以數位的方式。我們常常說的確沒有辦法改變一個人的觀念，這大部分的改變理論都會提到，但是數位工具有一個特色，也就是可以在一個人最願意被改變感受的時候，透過互動的方式，來改變他的感受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我有翻譯很多網路上的遊戲，像大家也許有聽過叫做「信任的演化」，就是教囚犯兩難的理論，大家投金幣進去，各種不同的角色，這樣子其實告訴大家在溝通的過程中，可能會有一些失誤、誤解或怎麼樣，但是我們只要願意容錯到一個程度，但又把容錯的程度明確化，雙方的感受就有可能結合在一起。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我有翻譯過另外一個是「別讓圖形不開心」（Parable of The Polygons），原文直翻是「多角形的寓言」，就是在諾貝爾獎得主托馬斯·謝林（Thomas Schelling）的Segregation Model，如果我們甚至只是對於鄰居跟我不一樣，有一點偏見，這樣子很快就會造成大家都變成各自住在各自的地方，而不願意去體會到像你剛剛所講的移工或者是新住民等等這些實際的處境。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是反過來講，我們只要願意稍微看重一點點多元性，像我參加很多國際會議，有很多朋友都是說，如果台上五個人panel都是單一性別的話，很多人有簽這樣的情況下就不上台，但這其實就是要求到1/5而已，也沒有很多，或者甚至是1/40，但不能是0/5或者是0/40。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "只要有少數一些人有這樣子的堅定邊界、立場，這樣子忽然間整個社會的多元性，就很像觸媒一樣會發生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個在數學模型裡面很清楚，但並不是你拿著數學模型，別人就會聽得懂。所以像「別讓圖形不開心」，讓人在很開心的狀態下聽很舒服的音樂，手指點一點，就比較了解綜觀的道理，這個是很重要的貢獻。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然，很多人想到我就想到VR，我覺得VR也是很重要的，像我最近有看HTC跟台北金馬影展合作拍的五部短片，就是《5×1》裡，最後一部《山行》講的是移工的世界，是把你帶入跟一個懷孕、逃跑的一位移工，你等於跟她坐在同一輛車上，看到她跟警察、社會網絡等等的關係。這些各種各樣的關係，很多沒有辦法透過文字，因為沒有人有第一手經驗的這種事情，你透過VR可以進入她的第一視角，來進入第一手經驗。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "即使是短短的15分鐘，也有非常大的感染力，當然不可能腦裡的意識形態因此改變，至少不能假裝社會上沒有這樣的情況、不能假裝沒有看到，而且會比較願意下一次聽到類似的事情時，稍微放下一點預先判斷，然後願意進入對方的感受裡面，所以除了互動體驗之外，我想VR也是很重要的一環，這些都是數位工具，這個是簡單的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後面這個問題真的很難：如何建立具有公信力的指標，最好跟GDP一樣容易量化，但是又沒有GDP的缺點——好比說社會跟環境的破壞無法呈現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "換句話說，就是包括各種正負外部性的社會價值評估方法。很坦白來講，這是開放式的研究問題，全世界都沒有標準答案，但我們有一些方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "一個好的量度方法，應該是在每一個尺度上面都要有量度，然後把它串聯在一起。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們辦這一些協作會議，也就是跨部會開放式的討論，我們會做一些後測，這可能是全質性的，之前本來以為直接面對民眾怎麼樣，之後實際的感受有沒有主觀改變，但是這個是在個人層次。接下來是在團體層次，也就是這個部會或者是單位在制定政策的時候，給出交代的次數、方法，有沒有跟以前不一樣，這個是在單位的層級。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們可以更抽上來一層，在整個大組織，像行政院的層級有多少比例的政策，用了這樣的方式、揭露到多少程度、給了多少的交代，這又是第三個層級。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "每一個層級都有從質性到量化的方法，但是這個量化的方法，往往是不能跨尺度共量的。像我們在做青年政策盤點的時候，並不是壓縮到一個線性的尺度，因為壓縮一定失真。我們呈現的方式，是一下子先有一個總覽，然後之後用一個網狀圖，顯示在不同尺度下的評量跟上面的系統關係，這個其實就是系統動力的視覺化。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前用文字，沒有辦法把系統動力很好描繪出來，現在做法是透過一些數位的技術，至少透過網站，你可以比較清楚知道這些系統動力之間的彼此影響，每一個也許都再細分、再衡量，但是當你點進去的時候，是看到行動者本身覺得有意義的衡量，並不是上面硬要他量一些不該量的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這跟MDGs時代不太一樣，因為MDGs時代有一個二元的世界觀，就是已開發的要幫開發中的。開發中可能有一些指標，像潔凈水資源，可能要量有洗手間的數量，等等純量化的proxy measurement，並不是不重要，而是很難讓被歸類為「已開發」的這邊心理覺得這是我的重點，所以就會變成一個比較施捨的態度，那在施捨上能夠花的心力往往很有限。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以為何要用系統動力？在2015年以後的這一套永續做法，沒有去區分施者跟受者，而是所有的人在2030年都要到這個境界，在這個過程裡，是同一個系統的一部分。因此，各界可以用比較屬於業務拓展的角度，來看跟NGO的關係，並不是從施捨的角度。大家都是永續發展不可或缺的夥伴，而不是有空再照顧一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個觀念上的轉變，就是我們用分層衡量，中間用系統動力的方式，讓大家看到衡量中間的關聯，大概是這樣的角度。這17項發展目標是最上層的共同價值，是一個規範性理念，並沒有說如何達到這個目標。衡量的價值，是在解釋如何達到這個目標，大概是這個做法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這裡有非常多的細節，我們可以開三天的seminar。先簡單回答到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "陳凱翔", "speech": "謝謝政委。我們要達到永續發展目標，知道這個是對的方向，用四個象限來看，是有長期重要、短期重要，以我個人來看，如何支持長期重要的事？然後會犧牲到我個人的利益？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也就是「輕/重」、「緩/急」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個，是我們儘量不要把它變成是「會犧牲我個人的利益」的這種說法。因為「犧牲小我、完成大我」，一個人一輩子就做幾次，不可能每一天都這樣做的，所以這個概念本身就不太永續。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果要能夠永續的話，我們通常講的是ACE，A就是快速行動（actionable），而這個行動本身是沒有什麼門檻的，C是行動的過程中是一個社會性的行動（connected），我不怕大家看到我在做的事，而是我願意去組織大家更多一起來做這一件事。E指的是可以延展的（extensible），一開始的發起人不會透過專利、著作權、或人情壓力，逼你一定得照著我的方法來用這個概念，而是任何人都可以使用這個概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實最成功的網路上動員，不管是當年的冰桶挑戰，那也是NGO發起的，到最近的#MeToo，其實有非常多，我不一一列舉，大概都是符合這三個要件。當你第一次做這件事的時候，只花你5秒鐘，最多5分鐘的時間，但做的時候，不管是你點名五個人還是怎麼樣，都是一個社會行動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果你拿一桶冰水往自己頭上澆下去，不給任何人知道，雖然犧牲小我，但大概沒有完成大我，這個是擴散性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，用#MeToo這個hashtag的時候，不需要先問過誰，所以到各地都有不同的挪用都會出現。或是像義大利也發起了他們g0v的零時政府，可是這個發起的時候，也不用問過誰、付過授權金，只有一個粗略的概念，就是政府不做，我們來做給政府看，只要有這個東西就變成迷因，只要進入迷因的這個地位，這個迷因擴散的速度比起服務或者是產品快得多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像芙彤園在加拿大展店的時候，他們當然有賣一些產品過去，但我最感興趣的是跟當地原住民族的合作發展。因為加拿大也才剛做過真相與和解，他們也發現阿美族的朋友們在臺東的這一套做法，是可以直接參考的。即使還是叫做Blueseeds，但事實上當地的作物、當地的原住民，也可以把這一套互動方法搬過去，這就是你到不同的土壤，也可以長出這樣子的社會創新。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這個過程，其實是叫做「趣政治化」，在做的是政治行動，但是在過程中讓大家感到樂趣。也不是不辛苦，但同時能充分感到樂趣，我覺得這個會比較有意思。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "其實我們婦女團體上次曾經跟你提過資訊的問題、資料庫的問題，因為中央政府很期待這一種婦女的服務，尤其是保護性的服務，全部都進中央資料庫？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少有一份副本。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "最大的問題是，我們不曉得資料庫的目的在哪裡，但是要求我們要key進去，每key一筆就是一個費用，也就是等於你有做這個服務，也就是綁核銷、補助，這個是我們覺得很奇怪的做法，因為我們自己本來有資料庫，但是我們不希望我們的社工做兩次，因此我們覺得自己的資料庫沒有辦法發展，那就變成完全key到中央政府的資料庫。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "本來他的資料庫鉅細靡遺，包含加細圖都要寫進去，後來我們一直抗議，最後可以比較簡單，但是還是很復雜。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "第二個問題是，資料庫key進去，我們放棄我們自己的，因此我們希望下載給我們，我們可以做分析、統計，而且我們知道自己服務的一些data，但是他沒有辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是兩個完全不同的問題，我等一下回答。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "第三個部分，因為這一些key進去中央資料庫都沒有告訴個案，所以並不知道個案的data被key進去中央資料庫，這個是服務的個案跟我簽約，但是已經填了要key進去這裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有告知個案的義務。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "對，但是我們相信，如果告知個案，個案接受服務的意願會受到影響。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "怎麼說？" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "害怕中央資料庫到底如何運用，而且我的名字、自己遭受什麼樣的狀況、接受幾次服務，全部都在政府的中央資料庫。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個有要釐清的。我們是採取部會分管原則，個資是要有特定目的業務，才會根據那個業務蒐集。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "要能夠跨業務去調用個案資料，那只有在一個情況，也就是個案危險、緊急的情況。應該沒有錯吧？" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "很多學者都會去申請這些資料。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過那是統計資料，這個是資料統計後的研究。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "我不知道，他們去申請什麼我們都不知道，那一些學者都會跟我們抱怨那些很難用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，因為是統計資料。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "我不曉得。他們研究的面向可能很多種，不是只有統計資料，可能還需要知道個案危險程度、介入的效用等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "應該這樣講，如果要做數據分析，研究者在意的是趨勢，還有這中間呈現出來的長期關連。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這些研究者，你說他對哪個人的隱私很有興趣，那大概是沒有。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "這我們理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在通常合作的方法，衛福部我沒有那麼熟，但是以我的理解，像財政部的情況，其實不管是稅務或者是跟財政部的觀念更綿密，所以大家也是會有一種隱私會不會接受侵犯的情況，所以以我的理解，財政部資訊中心的做法，也是接下來全面性的做法，就是財政部會先做一個基本最小統計來當作單位，然後釋出資料，學界在最小統計區裡面大家有所得、移出移入等等會有研究。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "過程中財政部把任何會侵犯到個資的，像這裡面如果只有一個人的所得會在這麼高的分位，這個會拿掉，因為不能逆推出這個人的身分。這個處理過程，會讓學界反應說很難用，因為算平均數、中位數都不一樣，犧牲太多的可用性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "財資中心目前的做法，是讓學者提供這個演算法，確保它不侵犯個資，也就是不讓特定人的資料還原出來。財資中心並不是把原始 資料交給學者，而是把統計演算法在自己的資料庫跑，統計出的資料再交給大家、交給學術研究單位，但誰都拿不到本來的個資。這個是我理解的做法。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "比較大的問題是每key一筆綁一個補助，那就變成我們感覺很不舒服。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "你不key就沒有錢，我們的婦女團體，後來就放棄這一些方案，就不想做了，但是我們勵馨就看重個案，因此一直需要被服務，在服務當中被迫填這一些資料。但是因為無法告訴個案說被key進去，這一個部分也在想說我們有方法告訴個案？個案還是有拒絕的權利。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "我補充一下脈絡。因為政委在6月雙北那場大數據交流研討會也有很多人提出資料庫的問題，政府從98年開始建立家暴資料庫，其實很多NGO是反對的，有些地方政府也反對，我自己服務在新北市，新北市是至102年加入使用。因為中央將其納入社福考核，資料庫的達成率，似乎會影響考核和預算，地方政府一線人員也提出很多建議，很多NGO其實也抗爭這個系統。政委剛才說希望政府不要用威權管理而是用威信，但這個資料庫問題已經存在十年了，很多一線人員和婦保組織都很痛苦。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "六月那一次聽政委的分享，讓我們燃起了一線生機，曾經大家想說:是不是就退出家暴的服務好了，就不做這一套，就像善牧這樣好的NGO就退出了這個服務，其實對家暴服務是很大的影響。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "但是大家現在被這個資料庫綁住，它似乎已經變成了一個怪獸，原先建制可能立意良好，但現在整個服務卻被這個系統困住了。那一天聽政委說科技不應該這樣被使用，但是我們不曉得可以怎麼和衛福部溝通，可以如何改變這個困境，我們很挫折。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "剛剛政委說面對舊系統不要對抗跟抗爭。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "用一套新的系統。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "如果要創造新的系統，因為這是家暴法，是國家的制度，民間創造新系統也可以，也要十年、二十年的社會改變，難道要全部的ＮＧＯ對抗政府。這樣好嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽起來也不錯（笑）。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "但這個問題真的已經存在十年了，現在大家的工作變成是paperwork，我不是以助人為核心，回應系統要求，登打複雜的資料庫，幾乎成了讓社工過勞的原因之一。" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "我有執照，我也做了好幾年，我還精神科社工師，我每天寫完那一些精神科的單子，早上七點多的meeting還會有這個……" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "這個系統已經變成一個監控系統。我們不想系統監控著我們、但我們也監控著個案。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "政府會說為了大數據、各種風險預估，但是要犧牲掉這麼多的東西和專業服務，我們覺得很痛苦、也不知道怎麼辦。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "那一天您6月來，我們似乎覺得有一線生機，覺得政府好像有人可以聽得懂，我們並不是反對科技，而是如何變好？明明都已經怨聲載道了。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "而且變成我們的基金會沒有任何的data，我們不想讓我們的社工重複作業，我們發展自己的資料庫，變成要填，不相容沒有辦法倒進去。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "目前的系統還無介接。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們之前做「民生公共物聯網」協調的時候，那個協調起來比較容易，因為那個是空氣、水品質——環境不會主張個資——但是也碰到非常多，也就是災害發生的時候，救災都已經來不及了，還要填三個系統，疏散、收容及開設的時候，如果要紙本填一次、消防署填一次、地方政府填一次——地方很多是志工，並不是有薪水的——光是做這一些就沒有時間救災，所以這個是我完全了解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我這邊想要講兩個：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，我們在協調民生公共物聯網的時候，我們在做的時候非常簡單，我們讓中央的接口是透明的，只要能夠符合這樣的格式，就不會特別說一定要來中央的前端去填。後端可以是一致的格式，因為一致的格式也有助於民間這些救災團隊彼此協調資料，一致的格式大家並不會反對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家會有疑慮的，是不開放的格式、單方面修改，然後治理的過程並沒有辦法參與，所以自己建置的系統也沒有辦法介接上去，到最後就會變成放棄掉自己的系統，大家反對的是這個結構。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好比說某個NGO希望用「年-月-日」發佈資料，另一個NGO堅持要用「日/月/年」的情況。大家如果可以同意用「年-月-日」的順序彼此界接的話，這並不是單方面決定，而是經過討論之後，建立更相容的領域標準。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們協調的基本原則，是如果政府有正當的依據請民間填寫資料，應該要有一個機器可以寫入的接口，現在有一個專門的名詞是OpenAPI，其實是把機器當作一種特殊境遇的使用者。我的比喻是如果你的網頁，讓盲人也可以透過點字或者是語音合成方法來取用，如果在招標的時候，你的資訊廠商說我的網頁只是給明眼人看的，這就是要在有利標刷掉，或甚至不應該進入投標程序。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在今年開始，《政府數位服務準則》裡面，在開標案的時候，也可以載明對於資料庫的系統，機器人也是一種用戶。如果機器不能讀寫的話，就像歧視盲人一樣，如果機器要讀寫，廠商希望收額外的錢的話，那這個廠商就不專業，就不可以進入最有利標的系統。你可以用這個理由，中央機關可以讓這個廠商disqualified，所以我們等於是透過這一種新的資訊服務採購契約範本，讓中央機關來了解到，當你做資訊建置或採購的時候，你留下這個接口，對於不管未來下一手廠商的接手或是讓民間填了之後，機器對機器填上來，這都只有好處、沒有壞處的。如果系統整合商做不到，那是他的問題，並不是政府的問題。所以這是很明確的要求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "衛福部的朋友，當時宣導會議都有來，因此我們可以來談這個資料庫在下次招標，是不是已經有這樣的接口。我們之前跟衛福部已經協調過避難收容的子系統，有很多民間，像究心科技等等，都有一套自己填寫的方法，本來就是批次拋轉就可以了。但是當時的廠商，本來契約上確實沒有明文要求接受機器拋轉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我們在新的採購契約範本上面，不管是工程會的採購、國發會的資訊管理，都有明確的文字來講這個。這個確實是要傳達到廠商的合約書裡面，只要有傳達到的話，就需要開出這個機器可讀寫的接口。這個是容易的，我們很願意約一個時間來聊一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於個資重新下載給你們使用，這大概沒辦法，我現在就可以說不可能。因為一開始是依法、依特定業務而為蒐集，依照《個資法》理論上可以下載的只有一個，也就是個案本人要求下載的時候，這個系統要提供下載的地方。現在就算NGO的名字是同一個，從部會的角度來看，當初上傳跟現在下載的未必能代表同一個主體。當初個案有充分告知願意提供，但下一手承辦不一定有取得個案的授權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以從部會的角度來看，只要是個資，當時就算是我委託你代為蒐集，也不表示你未來就可以批次下載回去，除非有明文約定，不然很明確是不可以的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以最好的方法是NGO之間有一套開放的、大家可以一起參與治理填寫的系統，這個是在你們這邊維運，但是拋轉過去，這個是可以協調到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至於下載回來，應該是要讓個案自己提出要求。我覺得這個情境，即使對你們的個案來講，會實際用到這個功能沒有非常多，但是即使只有幾個，這也有一個好處，如果我到這一套中央系統，申請我的資料，它可以不只顯示我的資料，也包含我的資料被使用的紀錄等等。如果提供這個紀錄的話，等於給出一個交代，也讓人比較有信心，國家用這個都是在業務範圍內使用。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "如果可以的話，我們希望解套，也希望發展中央資料庫，可以讓民間ＮＧＯ直接拋轉過去就好了，不用做兩個。" }, { "speaker": "李玉華", "speech": "我們跟個案間的關係，如果個案拒絕，政府綁補助、核銷，但是我們還是做服務了，不願意被key，這個如何被解決？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然是符合業務目的、最小範圍蒐集個資。這個意思是我們如果看《個資法》的話，不只是可以要求副本、補充、更正而已，在目的消滅的時候，當事人可以請求刪除。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家不要把個資看成是石油，並不是那樣的，而是一段關係的過程。我可以不斷要求你給出交代，你可以越來越當責，告訴我現在想要做不同的運用、你願不願意更新你的資料等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這一段關係，就跟任何關係一樣，有開始、有結束。所以當個案提出說這一段關係結束了，理論上按照《個資法》，在這個資料管線的每一站都不可以再留資料，這個是刪除權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這一件事跟統計目的是不違背的，因為即使個案不再需要服務，當然不會要求回去更改以前的人口統計年報，去把數字減1，應該沒有個案會提出這種要求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，每年統計的正確性不會因此受損，不會要求統計數字減1，但是從那個往後，大家不會心理有一個疑慮，也就是會被繼續列入名單。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "這個可能要很清楚說明，連我們自己都不知道個案可以請求刪除，我們傻傻被政府要求。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "像你剛剛講的那一些法條，像我覺得連中央政府都不願意跟我們講清楚。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這有一個原因，以前行政院並沒有個資主管機關，在去年以前不存在單一個資主管機關，所以各目的事業主管機關，就是各該事業相關團體的個資自主管機關。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家不願意講那麼確定的其中一個原因是，其實每個機關對於認定的標準都不一樣，所以我們那時要加入國際的一些組織，像歐盟GDPR或是才剛加入亞太這邊的CBPR，我都開玩笑說我們有20個主管機關，我們是不是有20個席位？當然是不可以的，因為別的國家都是單一機關主管，我們是要組一個團還是怎麼樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這個情況在今年有改變，也就是國家發展委員會，他們明確承擔了這個個資單一解釋主管機關的角色。包括本來法務部的一些業務，他們也發了一個函，承擔過去了。未來我們可能會修《個資法》，明文訂定國發會擔負的角色，但即使還沒有修個資法的時候，國發會實務上已經擔負了這個角色，包含跟亞洲談判CBPR，最近才剛加入。像跟歐洲談判GDPR適足性認定，正式的文件也都遞送出去了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想我們要申請歐盟的個資適足性認定，就是必須證明每一個主管機關，都能夠把資料的請求、可攜、刪除、解釋這幾個基本權利，要能夠充分做到，因此現在國際潮流在各位這一邊，各位可以直接拿歐盟GDPR精神，說行政院不是要申請適足性認定嗎？現在有哪些不滿足適足性的事情，請新任個資主管機關，也就是國發會的個資辦公室協助督導。過去不是它管、也不是它的責任，但既然現在在這一個位置上，就可以輔導一下。大概要用這樣的論述。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "非常好。今天解決了一大部分的問題，最重要的是溝通，也就是跟衛福部保護司好好溝通這個資料庫，因為當時的資料庫是非常霸權的，綁核銷，我們希望這一次跟他們溝通，像你說資料可以消除等等，這一些都訂在我們的約裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果包含批次刪除的話，你們要證明個案有明確告訴你們，說那個關係結束了。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "沒有問題，結案有結案的標準。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "如果能夠這樣的話，個案放心、NGO也不會抗拒。可是現在大家都抗拒，項目也推出了，新北最後因為2億，所以只好也加入，我覺得這整個過程到現在完全是沒有耳朵的，而且他們用很強勢綁核銷、補助，我們會覺得非常sad。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "因為其實我們的社工人員都主張要服務，我說資料庫這麼糟糕，你們還要服務嗎？但是你們都要，所以就變成節節敗退，真的是節節敗退。" }, { "speaker": "張瀞文", "speech": "可以各自再問一個問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "都可以。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "我有三個問題。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "三個也可以。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "基本上是越公開，改變越多產業生態或者是職業面貌，甚至延伸新的職業，又或者本來實體扮演的角色轉移到虛擬那邊，或者資源從實體到虛擬。所以三個問題：" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "第一，像我自己是用媒體來耕耘技職或者是技能相關的轉譯角色，因此以政委的立場，政委覺得傳統媒體要扮演什麼角色？像花蓮等等的案子令傳統媒體苦惱，傳統媒體未來要如何扮演角色？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這是時事題？（笑）" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "不一定花蓮，這個只是舉例。越數位，傳統媒體越要思考這件事，因為是很龐大的一群。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "第二，青年如何面對這麼多變動？不一定是職業，可能是生活與價值，像多元成家，現在就是一個新的價值，對很多青年來說，不知道要如何去準備自己面對這些新事物。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "第三，有關於實體化，像我們自己很多技術的訓練，尤其專班等等，開始嘗試用VR來代替實體訓練，或像新聞跑線，有些人不跑現場了，就是用數位線上的處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "開一個無人機。" }, { "speaker": "黃偉翔", "speech": "像社維法試圖處理假新聞，並不是數位不好，我的意思是像這樣的趨勢，讓原本實體有的系統角色慢慢被虛擬取代，但是像實質的觸感、技術的訓練還是很腫要，但這種取代是不可逆的，像媒體報紙的廣告往虛擬那邊，因此實體的系統被虛擬取代之後，很多的功能不完全被取代，但是變成一個不可逆的過程，這個看起來不全然都是一個好事，因此在大趨勢下，這是一個問題嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我快問快答，因為時間的關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以前的媒體是佔據話語權的高位，不管是廣播、電視或者是報紙，尤其當年還沒有完全開放黨禁、報禁的那個年代，那都是非常大的話語權，等於議題設定是靠媒體來做，因為也沒有別的議題設定者，所以在這一個過程中，我想大家都學到媒體要負擔社會責任、要平衡報導所有這一些查證義務等等的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在最大的差別是自媒體，任何人都可以當媒體，成本大幅下降。在這個過程中，我們發現有時反而沒有盡到查證的責任，或者是不做平衡報導，反而流量才會更大。所以這個時候，衝突行銷的情況就應運而生，大家會覺得真實碎片化等問題，很多是這個造成的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我具體的建議是，這個跟我們做開放政府很像，如果還是用威信那一套來做，信任也喪失，民間的組織者就會取代政府的功能，但是又不一定取代很完整，而且我們的主觀成就感也會越來越弱，也就是做了非常多的事，但是都只有負面的批評，為什麼呢？因為其實我們離大家的距離，雖然沒有變遠，但是大家彼此間的距離都越來越近，所以相形之下，和政府就越來越遠。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所謂追求高質量的報導、新聞工作，這件事也就跟開放政府一樣，很可能必須要用參與式的方法來做。第一時間做的，或許並沒有那麼高的質量，但是你可以用彙聚民間能量的方法來做，也就是承認自己不完美，但是如果大家一起來做就會變得更好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個在以前有維基百科之前，我們講了很多年的理論，都比較難讓人聽懂，但是有維基百科之後，就說「像維基百科那樣」就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "維基百科你可以當作是大型的自媒體結合，未來的媒體都可以往那個方向來走，我覺得是不可逆的趨勢。如果往那個方向來走，可以把這個能量重建回來，不管是正能量或者是負能量，衝突可以造成新的創作。但如果不做雙向或是多向溝通的話，像以前傳統媒體由上而下，那就再也沒有辦法把這個能量找回來了，相信這也是「倡議＋」策展的初心之一。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個是快速價值變化，要如何準備自己？不一定要看到價值變化就要選邊站，準備自己是所謂的核心素養，也就是「自發」裡面也包含了這個價值，就是要從自己的生命經驗裡面形塑，而不是看到哪一個很潮的價值，就去換大頭貼——並不是換大頭貼有什麼不好，而是這個價值是要在實踐裡面產生，不是聽到一個價值就跟從。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「準備自己」的其中一部分，是承認沒有單一價值可以去解釋現在全部的世界。這也就是為什麼永續發展目標原本只有幾項，最後變成17項的原因，就是因為這麼多元，不可能簡化，再簡化就要犧牲掉別人了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此，跟多元性相處是準備自己的第一步。不管你現在覺得什麼價值是最好、最新、最潮的，要了解有16方可能不這麼想，他們覺得有別的事情更重要。這是最基礎的心理準備，有了這個才有互動、共好。如果一開始覺得只有自己的價值是最重要的、是不可取代的核心價值，一定要整個社會去接受，這樣就不太永續了，說真的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，人跟人相處的溫度，是不是會完全被數位取代？我覺得像我看到AI的時候，我現在都是說「assistive intelligence」，就是輔助你做一些你本來就不太想做，在做的時候就覺得自己很像是工具人，像重複填報就是一個這樣的工作，沒有人的工作因為這樣子而獲得成就感，主觀成就感是越低的，我們越適合AI來做，因為AI的主觀成就感是很高的，他們的工具函數存在就是為了做好這一件事，這不妨交給AI來做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這部分沒有個人的主觀生命經驗、不需要人跟人溝通，是人對著機器，不如讓機器對著機器。除了這個之外的部分，就算你透過VR，稍微設身處地了解移工的狀態，你的狀態就是去那個地方，因為你透過VR先了解了，你去那個地方不會帶著優越感、傳教士的心態進去，至少心理有一部分是重疊的，確實是用比較柔軟的方法去相處。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，並不是讓實體溝通被取代，而是讓實體溝通一開始，不要基於那麼多的誤解而發生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以上對於AI跟VR，從這兩個方向回答。" }, { "speaker": "陳凱翔", "speech": "其實在訪綱裡面，臺灣現在的外交處境越來越困難，邦交國也越來越少了，但是以NGO為主體去做的這一種社會議題的國際倡議與外交，我覺得這個是很值得努力的地方，以one-forty為例，移民工的問題在全世界都是在每一個城市很重要的問題，像移民、難民及移工，我們自己每一年想辦法參加國際研討會，讓大家知道臺灣有這樣NGO及我們在做的事，如何可以結合政府的角色，幫助我們一起推到國際上去，我自己也覺得我們做的不差，因此希望被看見。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想SDG 10是消弭國際上、以及同一個管轄區域裡面不同社群中間的不平等，就是消弭一切形式的不平等，這個是非常值得做的一個題目。SDG 10的具體目標裡面，也有提到移工，好比像減少匯款走廊的手續費（SDG 10.c）等等情況，所以這在國際上是一個重要的議程，這個是沒有疑義的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想最主要的變化是，政府以前在做這一個的時候，大部分是幫助我們的邦交國，但是這個概念正在轉向，變成我們跟友好國家去進行互相合作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "臺灣實質參與主要是在APEC，APEC是full member，大部分的倡議也好或者訓練也好，或者是國際合作機制，大概都在APEC這個場域裡面發生，並不是沒有別的組織，而是APEC是full member，可以做的貢獻是比較大的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這裡面有兩個，一個是我們要讓實際參與APEC工作的外交公務人員，了解到民間有很多可以作為後盾的，當我們提出一個APEC倡議時，其實實際是可以整個社群一起來執行，而且可以彼此補位的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像要把一些年曆放在外交部次長的桌上（笑），我覺得這個很重要，因為過去不了解民間力量具體存在哪裡，因此先讓外交體系了解，我想這個外交體系了解的程度，他們自己非常有意願，因為他們非轉型不可，這個是一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，我們自己在所謂暖實力，也就是一起達成SDGs的這一件事上，有時反而是在臺灣試出一個模式之後，在別的地方去開發結果，這樣的好處是，這個並不是國對國，即使是總統盃社會創新黑客松，這邊有很多在那個資料庫、地方政府的應用，其實國際上是有能見度的，或者是透過機器學習解決漏水問題，那是氣候變遷，也就是SDG 13，這個是國際上看重的東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那一組人去紐西蘭工作三個月，好處是不用掛著國對國的招牌，也不用簽雙邊協定，純粹就是人對人的，我們在關心SDGs議題的社群，雖然裡面有一些公務員身分的人，但是是以社群的身分在跟其他國家去進行合作。我自己的國際交流都是這樣，這就是為什麼在聯合國相關場合都不會被打壓的原因，因為我是以SDGs社群夥伴的身分參與，我想這個是滿重要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們自己的社群，要能夠跟公務體系說，公務體系可以善用社群夥伴的身分，然後我們一起去幫助別人。這裡面關鍵的角色之一就是國合會，國合會的特色是只執行外交部的計畫，想到國合會就想到外交部的各部門，但是他們其實今年才剛申請勸募字號，所以也有一定程度的能動性，也正在試著以SDGs來協助友好國家，不只是做友邦的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我會在明年5月11日、12日的社企年會，國合會的朋友也會來參加。我們可以讓國合會和社企彼此平等看待，他們也是提供服務、產品，只是傳統上經營的方式跟各位經營的不同而已。在這個過程中，我覺得可以多進行交流，可以把各位的工作當作酬載，但是還是NGO的身分，去進行具體交流。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以上是這兩個，也就是國際組織的層次，跟NGO外交的層次。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "其實剛剛提到國合會，我們試著敲門，國合會沒有辦法跟我們合作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是這樣？" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "真的，因為我們問過好多次。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們什麼時候問的？" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "去年。我們去要求國合會的預算，看看怎麼樣跟我們一起合作，可是他們的意思是，因為限於法條，其實是沒有辦法的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有錯，你去找他的時候，當時他們還沒有申請勸募字號。這其實是這一次在UNGA，就是紐約聯大期間，才談到的一個新方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "過去國合會的自我定位也是外交部的執行單位，如果不是外交部依法做的事，他們沒有預算、人力及編制來做這一件事。但是我們在UNGA的時候，當時國合會是第一次跟民間社企Impact Hub合作UNGA的活動，後來他們發現這一套事實上比較走得通，因為Impact Hub事實上是聯合國的附隨組織，為了推行永續來成立的青年組織倡議團體，所以其實跟總部是有非常深的聯繫。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "國合會發現，Impact Hub以這個身分、而不是以ROC執行單位的身分，第一個碰觸到的人比較年輕，而且比較國際化，也比較不是他們傳統會碰得到的人，所以我覺得他們去UNGA跟Impact Hub合作，很大程度上改變，變成在臺灣NGO互動模式的想法，甚至他們會問「我們能不能多認識一些影響力投資者」，這個在以前的國合會是講不出這句話的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛好臺灣也正在組成我們叫做GSG，也就是國際影響力投資組織的national advisory board，國家建議委員會。行政院的態度是「全力支持、絕不主導」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "前天他們才在這邊有一個創立的會議，把所有的影響力投資者跟NGO的關係，透過影響力投資的系統來做一些盤點，所以會在接下來一年當中產生一個social financing的策略藍圖，所以這當然從我們社會創新行動方案的角度來看，這是非常好的，因為我們之前做社會創新的時候，真的沒有盤點到這麼多，尤其是跨國影響力投資的網絡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是從國合會的角度來看，你越認識這一些網絡，你的國際性越強，因此這個東西也會透過明年5月的那一次年會，還有中間更多GSG小聚，讓大家了解到在這個網絡裡面各自可以擔任怎麼樣的影響力行動者，但我們絕不主導，這是民間多方利益關係人的平台，大概是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "希望更多人去。另外有一個問題，因為剛剛提到SDGs，政委您有參與SDGs嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有。SDGs是《社會創新行動方案》的核心目標。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "我們聽到的是，政府要發展臺灣自己的SDGs，但是因為我們NGO真的不知道政府要如何發展，尤其像我們關心性別，完全沒有跟我們討論，也不曉得他們要怎麼訂，這感覺也是離我們很遠，我們沒有辦法參與。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在行政院裡面，這是兩個不同的部份。一個是政府跟國際承諾自己要做到的，有一點像CEDAW的部分，這個是政府該做的，每年都要做到一個程度。另一個是要民間協力設定方向的。所以這兩個系統在行政院裡面，分別是由永續會，跟社會創新行動方案來推動。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "他們重視環保，但是對於性別沒有概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "永續會也正在調整，但它的核心工作還是政府對外的承諾，也就是每年一定要產出自願性國家報告。大家也了解，如果政府承諾某一年要做到這個，承諾的部分比較保守，也就是知道可以做得到的才做出承諾，一定是這樣子的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這個中間，當然永續會也有線上、線下等等的參與方式，但是如您所說的，裡面環保的比重可能佔多數。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "不只。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們可能說得比較保守，但要確保承諾到的數字是對的。反過來講，在環保之外的，我們現在很多是在社會創新行動方案，我們去盤點各部會正在做的這一些方式，但是我們不主導，我們是讓民間來提，看希望兩年之後在性別議題上、四年之後在性別議題上可以一起做些什麼。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "提給誰？" }, { "speaker": "黃秀玲", "speech": "（舉手）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像民間有提出要辦年會，或者是民間對於像公司治理裡面，要把對於社會創新的投資與購買納入公司治理、評鑑指標等等。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "民間有很多倡議，這一些倡議我們能夠消化的，就會在工作平台來處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我這邊也要稍微說明一下，如果有些很明顯只跟臺灣內部，尤其是比較需要關注的「地方創生」區域相關的議題，那我們不一定會在這裡處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像之前有一個倡議，是希望在地的一些農村、農社企，可以自己辦小旅行，不受《發展觀光條例》的限制。這個倡議從國際連結的角度，跟SDGs可能沒有這麼緊密的扣合，這個議題就會轉到地方創生會報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "明年開始，行政院最重要的方案之一，就是地方創生。所以如果地方的成分比較高，就轉到地方創生會報處理。不過無論是社會創新、地方創生，也都是要達到永續。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "其實性別議題，在CEDAW之外，其實SDGs是很可以用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。SDGs比較沒有「開發中、已開發」的施、受二元關係，比較是共同目標、大家一起達成。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛才提到衛福部拋轉的系統，可能我們直接約一個會議來談，我們這邊的窗口是PDIS的怡君高級分析師，她的聯絡方式請筱婷給你們，也很歡迎寫信時直接CC我。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "我們是不是可以約一些相關的婦女團體？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。今天我們這邊也會做逐字紀錄，在約的時候可以先請與會的朋友們，把這一份看過。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這就是逐字紀錄的好處，就是已經講過的不用再講一次。" }, { "speaker": "紀惠容", "speech": "他們也知道原來是可以這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是「會不要白開」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝大家。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "政委、大家好，公益責信協會的Simon，今天我先快速跟大家簡報一下要討論資訊平台的問題，首先我目前說一下政府官方所有與公益有關的資訊平台，一個是衛福部有一個公益勸募管理系統，最大的問題是本身法條的限制，公益勸募就是管募、不管捐，意思是如果募款得來的錢就要在上面公開，但是只限於公開這個募款部分，像慈濟好了，大部分的錢是來自於捐款，那部分就不在公開的資料之列，所以像前幾年慈濟風暴，他們因應大家對於透明度的質疑，後來就是公告了給衛福部公益勸募管理這一套的結案報告書，但是給的並不是整個基金會的財務報告或者是完整的成型。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "第二，內政部有一個公益資訊平台，功能非常陽春，基本上進去只能看到組織的基本資料、理事長、成立的年份之類的，但是名稱很像泛用網站，其實不是，就是非常基本的資料。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "他們自己的說法是，因為他們還在等像社會團體法及其他法案通過，他們才有被授權能夠公開的其他財務資訊，他們是在等那個部分。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "第三，像在衛福部也有內部的資訊管理系統，但是只限於主管機關跟團體間的行政作業而已，那部分也沒有辦法公開，因為也沒有法源。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "接下來是司法院過去以來就有法人提出財產登記公告，簡單來講就是查詢法人登記的資訊，一方面是系統很舊、另外一方面是有一些亂碼，比方我們自己協會登記我的名字，第三個字就是亂碼，然後也無法處理，因此這樣就會變成比對上的困難，這個是我們覺得新時代還會有這一種事，真的是有一點匪夷所思。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "最後，我相信各位一定可以理解，在跨系統間的資料，非常難互相索引、整合，像我們現在的「聰明公益資訊平台」是陳昇瑋老師開發的，那時就是把所有可以抓得到的Open Data撈回來比對，像勵馨，以上這一些系統裡面的資料，我們可以就把它整理在同一個page裡面。但是問題在於有一些機構的名字很泛用，或像台北市可能有一個勵馨，可能台中也有一個，所以我們在比對的過程就會很困擾。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "其實各個組織會有一些唯一值，像統一編號，可是我們的部會在揭露這一些平台的時候，統一編號沒有辦法，那個並不是一個必要值，彼此間的資料很難串在一起，當然這就會造成我們在整合時很大的困難。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒有統一編號的時候是用什麼？全名嗎？" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "就是用全名下去看，但是有些系統又只有簡稱不會冠上「財團法人」，我們就得人肉來比對。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "還有一個問題，社會團體不一定要登記成社團法人，可以單純是社團，所以根本查不到他的資料。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "對，就是一般人民團體的部分。我們的公益組織簡單來講有幾塊，一個是財團法人、一個是社團法人，還有一個是非法人的人民團體。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "目前財團法人法的部分，有公告應經會計師查核，主管機關得設置網站，命其將所有的公開資訊或一部分上傳到這個網站，基本上這個跟公開發行公司的精神很像，就是一段時間就要把你公告的資訊全部在同一個地方揭露。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "但是問題是因為在整個財團法人法的精神裡面還是授權各個主管機關去決定，所以各個主管機關就會因為他的主觀需要而成立網站或者是像他們財會的規範是各自領各自的，這裡就會出現一些分歧。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "多頭馬車的原因有三個：一個是公開資訊的法人，就是各個主管機關來決定如何公告；第二個，資訊的細節是各個主管機關來律定；第三個，剛才有提到會計準則、財務報告編制準則也是各個主管機關來決定，所以就會造成不同層次的資料上混亂。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "所以這裡很簡單幾個結論，這樣會造成各個主管機關自己設平台，除了管理成本增加以外，團體的行政負擔也會增加，因為團體並不是只有對一個主管機關。更大的問題是，在這樣資訊紛亂的情況下，強迫資訊揭露其實並沒有達到資訊透明所要的結果，但是像我們剛剛在聊的，財團法人法正式上路，所有的財團法人被迫要揭露所有財務資訊時，格式不一、表達方式也不一，會不會造成很多誤讀？會不會造成更大的信任風險，這其實都是我們有一點擔心的。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "我們的思考與建議是短期內公部門資訊平台是不是可以整合？公開資訊就是觀測站而已，基本的資訊及欄位是要被統一；再者是這一些資料是不是可以被對齊，像財會這一些原則、必要的項目是不是可以統一？" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "中期比較希望有一個跨部會的整合機制，在美國一個Foundation Center，在英國有一個Charity Commission，都是比較高層級的委員會，由他們來主導第三部門的發展及行政事項，而不是由各個主管機關去決定，因為各個主管機關除了行政能量有限以外，是不是有辦法規範整體規範的人力，然後就不斷外包，外包的結果就非常取決於外包的品質，以上快速簡報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我剛剛有兩個沒有聽詳細的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，單一財團法人會對到多個主管機關，實務上的情況是什麼？以我的理解是只有單一主管機關。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "是主管機關，但是現在財團法人法通過之後，現在的主管機關是法務部。像我今天是社會福利財團法人，關於財團法人的主管機關是法務部，但是這個業務是衛福部管的，大部分的業務是衛福部在管的，衛福部底下有衛生財團法人、醫療財團法人、社會福利財團法人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個我理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "所以會有好幾個。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "像慈濟如果辦理公益勸募，那一塊的業務是衛福部社工司，但是慈善基金會有自己的主管機關，如果有承接政府某部會的補助案，核銷的這一些財報及編制原則又要符合那一個機關的原則。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這邊講的並不是要用最後哪一個主管機關標準揭露，而是中間經營業務的時候，要跟別的主管機關發生像核銷等等的這一些關係，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，這邊講的「或資料對齊」是用相同的資料欄位用同一個領域標準？不同的平台沒有關係，但是填的格式是一樣的？" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣很清楚，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "資料對齊的部分不只是財團法人法，像公益團體，尤其是社會福利團體裡面，像身心障礙管理系統、安置管理系統，很多社工在第一線的時候，面對政府上傳資料及像大家欄位、資料的定義，這邊基本上服務的資料很多是共同的，但是要填不同的系統，所以會變成還停留在word打表格及附件方式上去，結果我們用了這麼多的系統在管理各種工作的情況下，其實這一些系統沒有辦法產生數據跟分析，變成是我們的社工其實花很多功夫在填表格並上傳。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "當政府要做關於這一個政策領域研究時，再委託學者做一次研究、調查，並且我們長期累積的服務成果並沒有變成有用的資訊來作研究，有一點可惜，當一個新的政策、法律出來的時候，我們的承辦人員被要求設系統，唯一的知識、寫得出來的表規是買伺服器，請廠商做一個系統並請廠商上傳資料，並不會想到那一些資料將來的用途會不會變成決策的儀表？我自己在衛福部公益勸募回饋金常常看到這樣子，有一個attachment，試著去整理，都有類似的情況，我想是不是有這樣的機會去檢視一下？" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "其實第一線的工作人員在使用這一些系統的時候可以Smart一點，也可以學到一些東西。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以剛剛聽起來是兩個不太一樣的東西，這邊會叫做「領域資料標準」的東西，如果有多個不同使用者都在用同一個領域相似資料的話，不管一開始是用word或者是手填的，這邊希望再具有可評析性的共同領域標準裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個，當有一個新的要求或者是新的行政命令、法律要大家做一個系統時，要顧慮到跟既有系統的銜接性或者是是否可以整合，聽起來是這兩個事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "看有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "就實務經驗來講，像衛福部有醫療財團法人、社福財團法人等，但是有各自的系統，這邊是不連接的，各個單位自己會有一筆經費要做自己的系統，做系統不能連接、互通的原因是最前面的法規，即使是一個衛福部，其實一個會計報表就有各自不同的格式，所以要如何接也接不起來。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "更何況，如果跟教育部教育型或農業型的法人永遠接不起來，因為大家的格式完全長不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "所以財團法人法授權各個主管機關去訂定相關的子法，就是多頭馬車，因此各個單位的資料回到政府部門的話，其實是沒有辦法做一個統一知道我們如何非營利部門到底財務狀況、貢獻值是什麼，其實是看不出來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有要補充的？" }, { "speaker": "黃雋", "speech": "我講一下背景好了，找他們三位來是遇到跨部會的事情，有機會跟唐鳳聊一聊，比較知道實際上政府的狀況跟我們的想像有什麼落差。" }, { "speaker": "莊友欣", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我先就我理解的部分先回答，關於法律跟資訊還是要請這兩位同仁幫忙補充一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我的理解，在採購的時候要留下機器可以介接的這一種放在資訊採購範本或者是工程會的不提供介接的話，那就是一個不專業的廠商等等的基本想法，我如果沒有記錯的話，剛好是兩年前我們討論出來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "後來工程會跟國發會很快速更新了相關的契約採購範本等等，後來也做了OpenAPI的相關培訓，但是這一些全部做完，到現在也才一年的時間，而且目前是選用，「選用」的意思是等到下一個改版或者是新設資訊系統才會發生，並沒有一個回溯的強制力已經簽好了約，然後回去說但是要多加一個機器可讀的，而是當一個新的約時，人可以讀寫、機器可讀寫，廠商來跟我說要收你更多的錢，我可以說這個廠商不專業，最有利標刷掉，但是這個不適用於往前系統，這個到現在可以使用不過是一年左右的時間，這個是第一件事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，在建置系統的時候，先看既有的使用者需求這一件事，這裡的使用者包含各位民間使用者、第一線承辦人也是使用者，這一件事我們推薦大家這樣子做才兩個月，對不對？也就是政府數位服務準則推出到現在才兩個月，而且現在強調是beta版，如果用起來不好用的話，我們回來改，所以應該會適用一年才會變成所有的數位服務都應該要參考的準則，現在還是參考看看，如果有問題跟我們說的這個準則。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個準則滿重要的，因為裡面講了三個跟各位剛剛講的幾乎完全一樣的原則：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一個也是最重要的原則，是先了解使用者需求，任何新系統是要以滿足使用者的需要而不是使用者的想要來出發，因為很多當一個新的法律或者是新政策出現時，大家會有非常多的願望，但是這一些願望到底哪一些是大家實務上作業時真的有需要的，這個必須要先做一次使用者的盤點，而這個盤點在以前通常是系統整合商，已經接到之後才做，但是我們現在先放到最前面來，甚至我們還不確定要開這個標案的時候，先來做先期使用者調查跟測試，好比像新一代健保卡就是用這樣的方式、協作的方式來跟各方利益關係人討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也很誠實地說這個準則才剛出來，有能力這樣做的有限，沒有能力、但有意願是有一個輔導的機制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二個在這個準則講到的準則二，在整個服務的生命週期當中，要有跨領域的領導者，這個其實也很重要，因為像你們剛剛講的，一個系統有多個可能用戶，但是一開始建置這個系統的人是單一用戶的經驗時，很容易就會變成是未來不能滿足，那就再做一套新系統的這種情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是一開始規劃的團隊就已經把剛剛講不同法人型態或者是不同各部會用到類似使用者型態時加在一起，然後用一個跨領域的方法來討論時，這樣規劃出來的東西比較不會有剛剛講的多頭馬車的情況，也就是就算好幾頭馬，但是至少是同一個方向，這個是數位準則裡面的準則第2點。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己最在意的是準則8，也就是以開放為優先，可以解決一個很大的問題，現在的資訊平台常常前端、後端是綁定的，意思就是當你找了一個廠商建置一套資料庫之後，只能透過他所提供的介面來提供資料給他或者是來存取他的資料，但是當你的實務需求已經脫離了這個介面時，你只能把所有你額外的東西都寫到一份word附件上傳上去跟打到備註欄，這個是沒有資料可分析的素養在裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們現在以開放為優先的話，前端跟後端前面是可以分離的，這個後端是可以多於一個前端的輸出入，是可以用可重複使用標準的元件來進行規劃，這個是數位服務準則跟以前最大的不同，但是同樣的是，有能力用這樣方式建置的廠商，現在還在第一批的規劃中，這個是我理解GDSG準則大略的方向，我只是被找去開過幾次會，是不是要請這一位實際負責的同仁來分享一下。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "參事先。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "牽涉到法有兩個問題：" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "第一個是財團法人主管機關會碰到好幾個，第3條講得很清楚，這個法的主管機關是目的事業主管機關，有數個的時候，是以主要業務，因此從法上來看是希望一對一，這個是第一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "第二，一對一的結果也有可能是交通、衛福等適用的財團法人不一樣，不無道理是衛福部、交通部想知道的東西有很明顯的差異，但是另外一個對於財團法人或者是對外界有困擾的是格式上的不同，我覺得這個是比較可能可以解決的，但是現在這個法才剛通過沒有多久，所以法的主管機關從第1條看起來是民事特別法，因此還是法務部，比較可能的方式是會由這個法的主管機關，像法務部對於個資法或者是民事特別法一樣，逐漸形成一些規則或者是解釋，然後統一起來。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "當然如果牽涉到整合的問題，政府機關當然也有可能，像個資法遇到貿易的時候，政府就會特別注意，但是現在很難預料會不會有不同，但是想像中的不同，如果從資料內容來看的話，各主管機關會要求的不一樣，格式的部分可能各主管機關會問要採取什麼。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "我覺得各位提的意見滿好的，如果有這樣的需要時，第一個是簡單化，第二個是牽涉到貿易，像國發會或者是貿易局希望跟國際標準接軌，這個是滿好的方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我另外講一下，這是第三部門，當然並不是只有財團法人的型態。而以第二部門來說，現在光是做公司章程、公益報告等等揭露時，從第二部門開始想要做一些永續的社會影響力時，我們也發現型態是非常多的，因為大家想到的是公司型態，但也有不少是合作社型態，那個我們請經濟部調查，根本調查不到，因為是在內政部那邊。當然還有NPO附設營業單位的狀態。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在做社會創新整理時，不只是第三部門有各部會的情況，第二部門其實也有。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "我想補充一下，其實綜整起來，各位有幾個需求，第一個是會希望各單位表單的格式是一致的，方便大家做不管是輸出或者是輸入。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "第二，我覺得理事長談到的是，我們整個作業流程是不是可以數位化。其實現在的思維會比較像先從人工的思維來思考所有的表單、填報流程及交換流程等等，或許各個部門不管是公部門或者是私部門，應該是大家慢慢培養預設數位化概念時，我們設計出來的流程就會是用數位化的方式來做資料的蒐集、交換，這一段不管從資料標準、交換API格式等等，甚至包含到操作行為等部分，我們都已經開始去做這樣的規範、標準訂定，但是各個部會要深入到他們的業務流程，說實在話，必須要時間。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "第一個領域資料標準的這一件事，可能需要先有一個主管機關才行，比如過去這一年也在推「領域資料標準訂定」，先從九大資料庫，像戶政、地政監理等等，這一些都是各單位資料在交換時最基本的資料，我們先把這一些基本需求找出來，然後可以要協調出主管機關訂定標準，例如地址並不是地政主管，而是戶政主管。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "財團法人的表單資料，必須由主管機關出來才容易統合格式的標準，因此我覺得這一個部分可能需要再一點時間協調。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "第二，剛剛政委有提到我們在採購契約已經有範本等等都有修訂，這個是機關如果開發系統時就有預設要開發API，不管是for跨機關的交換或者是資料以API方式開放利用，廠商必須要提供符合OAS標準的API說明文件，將來維運或者是跨機關介接時比較便利運用。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "但是如果機關沒有這個概念時，這個就不會被放到他的契約當中採用，簡單來講機關還是必須要有數位化的預設才會知道應該要有API來交換。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "第三，使用行為研究的部分，我們確實花了一年左右的時間，參考了包含美國、英國、紐西蘭等等的數位服務準則，我們也訂了國內數位服務準則的beta版，所謂的beta版是希望各機關試行之後有一些建議據以修正準則，同時也是給機關適應期。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "不過說實在話，準則是非常原則性的一些概念，並沒有非常by步驟式地引導，各機關接到之後都打電話來問如何應用。我們希望機關在服務或系統要改版的時候，可以挑一個來試行並研究，這個確實需要時間深化。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "還有一個是我們會希望民間包含協會、基金會等等，在作業的過程中，也是需要一起數位化，兩邊才可以做資料的交換，我覺得這個是公部門、私部門都要共同培養。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "像很早以前在協助財政部做單據扣除額電子化的部分，財政部是一個領域一個領域去協調，其中一個領域是NGO、NPO，他們在會上表達的意願是願意配合，但是部分代表就表示他們沒有系統、設備，甚至自己數位化都有困難的時候，這一段就會比較有困難，因此公私部門都必須共同提升。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "第一件事如果暫時沒有找到統合機關時，也許可以先從內政、衛福，可能是大宗，先找他們協調，例如剛剛提到的必須要填報的某一些系統，可以先從這一些系統請他們做一些改善的時候，也許可以有一些範本來給相關的機關參考。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "只是因為這一塊我們過去沒有深入熟悉他們現在系統的方向，因此可能會需要有其他機會再跟內政、衛福部了解一下，因為內政主管社團的部分，衛福是主管社福，等於面對業務領域的NGO、NPO更多，我覺得可能這兩個是最大的部會，以上是我的想法。" }, { "speaker": "黃雋", "speech": "像剛剛唐鳳有提到第二部門也有類似的狀況，我很好奇在什麼樣的情境下會關注這一件事？" }, { "speaker": "黃雋", "speech": "第三部門是政府沒有這個打算會覺得其實需要統合看的架構或者是事情，雖然有財團法人法，但是其實並沒有把內政部的社團法人想進去，我想政府在管理第三部門情況下，我感受到的情況是這樣子（政府並未想要用統合的方式去看第三部門），所以我想問一下之前（第二部門想要統整來看）的情境是怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聯合國永續發展目標是全面的，如果要講大學社會責任，目前也是用17項永續發展目標來定位他們造成的社會影響。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我的理解，從企業社會責任，尤其是上市公司在新公司法之下，揭露的家數也變得比較多，這個時候有一套論述是我做的CSR其實不只是Responsibility，而是Corporate Strategy的一部分，並不是要達成最低限度的要求，而是策略的一部分，就會強調跟永續發展目標扣合是如何等等，很多是國際上的ESG治理來的概念，並不是我們這邊訂了什麼法律。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們這邊大部分碰到很誠實來講並不是上市公司，而是自己有意願揭露自己的正向社會影響力及社會使命的所謂創新社會企業，這些社企當然在臺灣，你問每一個人對社會企業的定義都不一樣，我們這邊守的一個底限是你只要願意明確地說你的使命最好寫在章程裡公開，然後至少有一個服務或者是產品也願意公開登記，每一年告訴我們說你造成了多少實質的社會影響力，只要符合這三個，如果要自稱社企，我就不來阻止你，但是至於別人是否覺得你是社企，這個是另外一回事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為我們這個最小限度公開是有一個共用的資料庫，就是社會創新企業登記資料庫，後來大家發現我們沒有辦法完全用程式化的方法來取得資料庫，主要的原因是來源有合作社型態、NPO型態的營業部門，也有公司型態，甚至也有一些是商號等等，所以我們本來想像你可以全自動就到商工登記刷一個商工憑證就自動介接過來，確實也可以，但那是一小部分，合作社就不能走這個系統，剛剛的分享是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "我再補充一件事，剛剛談到資料格式的問題，像目前美國charity in the gather，就是用國稅局把所有NPO的報稅資料，因為格式統一，所以全部釋出，捐款就可以很清楚查到所有的財務方面資訊。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "當然針對不同的業務需要，像我們在公開資訊觀測站，即便是公司好了，像金融業也有特殊的要求，但那都是會額外有一個專區，但是會有一些基礎，也就是那一些key item是相同的。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "我們不要講業務的部分，也不要講社會使命，就是光財會部分的格式就是完全不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "甚至像有一些項目的表達，可能是同樣的東西，但是大家用的名詞不一樣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以舉一個例子嗎？" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "在一般公司的資產負債表有一個是股東權益，在NGO可以被稱為基金與餘絀、淨值、淨資產，那就會有區隔，裡面的項目也會分兩種或者是三種，使用的名稱又有一點小差異，例如叫做「永久限制用途」或有的是「永久受限制」，那個是很微小的差異，應該在財會規範當中一次把框架確定下來。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "這一件事折射的是需要跨部會機制去決定原則性的東西，如果有各個主管機關有太大的東西，我們實際上都很難達到最後的整合。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "對捐款人而言，其實我根本看不懂，你的報表跟他的報表編制的方式不一樣？我們最主要的財務報表有四張財報，這四張財報哪幾張大家的見解不一樣，有兩、三張大家都確定是一致，但是第四張是什麼，大家的看法就會不一樣，光這一件事就有不同的見解。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "因為透明還講到關於如何解讀的問題，這個會造成很大的阻礙，而且是非常難跨過去，即便主管機關認為有這樣的問題，但是他們沒有覺得有這麼大的架構。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "我自己跟中原大學老師在討論非營利會計法的定義，直接有一個新法來決定會計的框架。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "他的主管機關說真的，我們只能想像他是國發會，好像是在開新的任務，但是坦白來說，我在政府機關找不到其他地方有這個能力去協調，然後又能夠牽涉到各個部會，其實坦白來說，第三部門治理的這一件事應該要被含納在高階的機構裡面，並不是很碎片化被對待，像唐政委在處理社創也是拉到一個層次來做，但是第三部門還在很零碎，也就是大家前進腳步不一、想法不一。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "另外，在實際的法制層面，財團法人法通過並不是只有一個法而已，還有配套的社會團體法、宗教團體法及公益勸募條例要不要修，整個路線圖都要被涵蓋進來考量的，這邊緊、那邊要鬆，各個部會要看自己的議程來推這一件事，對於整個部門有一定程度的困擾。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "像財團法人法有強制揭露的義務，對於董監事的要求也提高了，財團法人因為管制變嚴，但是他們期待的一件事是某些促進公益的方式要放出來，公益勸募條例之前管得很嚴的東西，是不是可以減輕，也就是做一個平衡，可以達到促進公益。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "但是這兩件事步調不一的時候，就會變成政府在擾民，也就是揭露這麼多的資訊義務，對公眾信任既不能增加，還增加了行政的成本，實際上的效果非常有限。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "明年2月實行的時候，以你所知，現在各主管機關是不是都已經有平台了？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "就我們了解，教育部又分體育署、青年署、終身教育司的基金會，像教育基金會有一個平台、前台，頂多是公告活動跟教育部公告一些新資訊，然後後台一樣是管理系統，我們可以填年度資料、董事會資料，這個是教育部的。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "青年署依照今年的計畫應該要開發一個系統，到明年不知道幾月就要結案，農委會有系統在規劃限制，法又改了，所以沒有辦法上限。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "衛福部就我所知，像剛剛有提到衛生財團法人有自己的系統，社家署有自己的社會福德系統，醫療不知道有沒有系統，但是未來都會有，未來會走自己的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你剛剛講有的意思是現有的？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "現有的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以要符合財團法人法，其實只是確保這一些要件符合，甚至有一些規定要改系統。就是從系統匯出的功能就做完了，所以聽起來是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "對。但是有聽到一個狀況是因為剛剛有聽到數位服務準則對於系統有相關規定，但是訂這些系統招標規格的人，就我所知是業務承辦人，他們對於系統其實是不清楚、不了解的，所以訂出來的規格都是他們自己想像的規格，並不是資訊相關人員，所以每一次系統設計出來的，民間單位覺得很難用，一點都不友善。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個就是為什麼準則第一條說要先問使用者再開發，原因就是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "並不是資訊單位的人去訂規格的，這個是我們在使用上覺得怎麼這麼煩，然後每一次罵都罵輔導單位，都不罵新同仁。" }, { "speaker": "黃雋", "speech": "補充，海棠是幫忙很多政府執行輔導法人的工作。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "我們是幫忙上線，打電話來罵我們系統這麼難用、又上不去，我們沒有辦法，我們只是儘量幫法人或其他方法是不是可以比較順利把資料上傳。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "勵馨來講類似的問題，他們並不是講財會，而是講個案的問題。看起來他們本來是有系統的，只是因為衛福部好像沒有接受批次拋轉的功能，不然就會變成兩次填報，所以到最後就是變成先不用，但是實際上習慣改變非常花成本的，我們具體討論也是覺得如果有拋轉可能性的話，那其實還是應該往拋轉那邊去走，因為他們本來提了兩個可能，一個是先填他們的，他們再拋轉進衛福部。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "另外一個是先填衛福部，衛福部先把這一個資料下載下來，後面是不可能的，因為是看個資蒐集的法定流程就知道是為目的而蒐集，後來可以要回來的只有個資擁有權的本人，並不是這個基金會一年前幫你蒐集過，就可以要求下載你的個資到無限久，沒有這種事，所以唯一的方法是先到他自己的系統說這個是蒐集有必要的一部分，然後再回上面的系統，如果個案說請求刪除，這一整包都得刪掉，這個我們會再另外開會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思是，這個其實是很類似的情況，假設後端系統不做修改，有一些時候是前端如果第三部門自己有一套比較好用的系統，我們要談的其實只是拋轉、上傳，我們可能並不需要再開一個標，然後把本來的資料庫換掉，那個是沒有那麼容易的。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "其實我的意思是剛剛勵馨提到的同一件事，像不同領域，比如身心障礙、老人長期照顧等等，因為我自己之前在天主教社福機構，每一個機構不同領域，只要多做一件事，就有一個系統要上傳。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我知道。因為這個是N×M，就是每一個機構可以做一些事情，每一個主管機關管的又不是只有這一些機構，所以比較好的是，民間在做的業務類似的，自己用一套自己的系統，但是可以往可能三個不同的業務拋轉。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "民間另外一包類似的，也許又是自己的系統，對到另外三個，中間一個重疊，如果真的都要用N×1的方法解決，那個開發成本是非常高的，等於要對每一個可能的組合都去開發一種系統，那也不太可能，所以我們要做的，很可能只是把主管機關的這一端上傳拋轉做得盡可能友善，讓兩個以上的系統都可以拋轉回來，我們通常在公部門先要有一個標竿案例——應該這樣講吧——讓大家看到這真的有省到時間，其實對業務承辦人來講，這是幾乎唯一可以吸引他們的，這是可以早一點下班，然後再拿這個去說服他們，大概要這樣做。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "政委剛剛提到由民間系統來做拋轉，其實在一般公司，像會計有很多不同的軟體，他們都可以拋轉到關貿系統來做申報。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "但是前提是關貿的格式是穩定的，為何在財會部分的團體沒有辦法被開發出來？因為各機關要求不一樣，所以開發的成本是不符合成本效益的，因此民間這一段是很難長出來的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我在這邊講的是，像剛才怡君講的衛福部或者是內政部，像衛福部裡面有許多不同的主管單位，但是至少還是在同一個單位底下，要談橫向整合是稍微容易一點，像衛福部跟文化部要談是比較容易，我們先試試看、問一下，看有沒有哪一些地方看起來是民間已經有這樣子具體的需求，也就是如果有拋轉的話，就是有東西拋；第二，從承辦的角度來看，跟廠商的關係好一些，也就是請廠商都做一些省力的微調。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像報稅軟體那一案其實是財政部跟關貿說微調一年看看，如果很好用再擴大全部，不要你吸收全部的成本，財政部跟關貿的關係滿好的，他們也同意，因此我覺得應該要找到一個類似的關係公部門及廠商，也就是甲方跟乙方，這個情況下我們也許就先試試看，我聽起來是這個意思。" }, { "speaker": "黃雋", "speech": "我好奇一個問題，法務部（在財團法人法的主責機關）要求NPO資訊揭露，也要依據主管機關有不同的格式（財團法人法條的文字所描述），但是這個部分像法務部是不是本身有做一些guideline或者是統合？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是法的解釋主管機關而已。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "是法律爭議的部分，是不同部會，通常會請法務部來解釋。但是法務部並不會說規定各個部會在要求財團法人要做什麼事才做某一個規格，像財務的問題，他們會覺得不懂財務的問題。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "但是政府機關當然是這樣子，如果有一個機關可以做到，通常大家沒有什麼理由，如果這個範本滿不錯的，像工程會做的或者是國發會任何一個具有指標性的，也就是一定要先做出來，通常其他的部會會直覺性反映要抄它的。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "包含格式的部分是一樣的，像良好典範的時候，其他部會沒有理由說不跟，這個是軟性的方式也可以達到一致的目的。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "就目前來講，因為明年2月就要正式施行，子法也是一樣，政府部門很多都把子法做預告了，看起來我們接觸到的主管機關，他們的態度跟以前不要差太多。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "對他們的成本是最小的。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "對於法人來講變化也不會太大，基本上都是照舊的格式，也不會像剛剛所講的怎麼樣比較好，原來舊的東西也是照舊，就是讓法人改變太多，我們目前蒐集子法的狀況還是跟原來不會差太多。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "因為財會發展也有不同的知識，像內政部還在比較原始的狀態，像衛福部可能走的比較前面，所以他們使用概念跟標準就截然不同。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "主管機關並沒有知識的capacity，他們非常依賴找到的那一群專家或者是會計師，這一些外部的人就會非常決定這個取向，而且彼此間並沒有辦法做溝通，因為並不是主管機關對主管機關，而是委外話語權的爭奪。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個理解。就像剛剛葉寧所說的，如果各部會對法律的認識不同的話，各部會都有法律的專責人員，法務部會擔負一個最後的解釋，當然文字法規會幫忙看，但是我們對於演算法就沒有一個類似的編制，雖然實務上演算法在治理上的角色幾乎一樣重要了，現在大家面臨是一個實際的情況。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然一方面數發處，未來可以更加推廣《政府數位服務準則》的概念，二方面還是需要標竿案例。以前的標竿案例，如果沒有「以開放為原則」，那就只能在那一個垂直指揮鏈裡面作案例。只要那個貢獻是以開放為原則，全世界也會看到，當然在臺灣當中部會都會看到，這樣才有可能是讓這個作品或者是創新的機制，又或者是裡面所附掛的領域標準，以及做事的方法，可以跨部會傳遞。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "有一個觀念要回應跟溝通。像使用者需求的部分，我們鼓勵使用者這一段應該是要業務單位來作研究，包含像剛剛所談到的會計格式等等其實是業務，並不是系統來決定格式，應該是要for業務來決定系統，因此真正的決定權是在業務單位。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "您剛剛提到跟衛福部比較有合作，我想要請問一下衛福部是跟哪一個部門？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "我們比較長時間協助的是醫事司，也就是衛生部的財團法人，今年是有授權子法，請我們討論訂定相關的子法，因此才跟社家署比較有接觸，他們有另外一組，類似像會計師在查帳及輔導，但是並沒有那麼熟那個部分。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "像您剛剛舉到的例子，教育、農委、衛福部，大家想到的是醫事司跟社家署，所以變成你們主要窗口還是在業務單位？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "如果要系統開發的時候，才有可能跟他們資訊部門的人合作？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "沒有，就我們實務上的經驗，衛福部在開發系統，他們自己委外的廠商，會在問使用上或者是工作的流程，但是並不會接觸到資訊處的人，我們接觸到的是承辦單位。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "因為他們才能決定業務要怎麼走。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "但是系統在設計的時候，像後面有一些資料可以匯出那一些的，其實我們沒有辦法接觸到，都是系統設計廠商在處理的。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "像現在長照是最重要的，長照系統的部分其實有三大塊的東西，分別用三個案子去委外，我們接觸到的廠商是三大塊，一個是各管、居家服務及核銷系統，其實是分三大塊，分別用不同的案子委外，就我們了解三個系統裡面有兩個是同一家廠商標到，那沒有問題，另外一個系統是另外一家公司是去承接，但是做不出來，只好又找原來的廠商去補，現在那個案子又被重新招標，我不知道一個事情要拆成三個案子。" }, { "speaker": "陳怡君", "speech": "要拆幾案其實不一定，因為有的時候也會有一些單位說不希望大家都包成一包，所以我覺得這個是各業務單位的選擇（笑），看怎麼做會最順暢。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "業務單位的困難，我在想一個政策下來有幾個計畫，這一些計畫就按照計畫去協調，並不會想到這一些計畫面對的是同一群家庭，可是當這一些計畫的承接者是民間機構時，面對的是剛剛講到的，那三個系統，但是我們服務的是同一群人，當我要上傳資料的時候，或者是我要核銷的時候，其實是同一批人的基本資料要分別做。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "所以這個標案的規格裡面有寫其實有資料可以介接、資料可以通的。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "所以我覺得是業務承辦人需要剛剛所提到的訓練，甚至是他們在寫標案時……我覺得更重要的是，計畫解決方式的數位能力如何變成標案的規格，我覺得這個能力在我自己遇到社家署不同政策底下的服務系統都有都有遇到困難。" }, { "speaker": "陳文良", "speech": "在我們民間感受到的是社工是錢很多，他們的抱怨在於填這些表格，就沒有時間服務人，所以民怨就會一直起來。我知道這個需要時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也很誠實講，跟個資有關的，我們過去在專責機關確立之前，能夠著力的比較有限。要在有個資辦公室的架構下，才可以開始處理一些案例。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以我在入閣第一年的時候，我們也是比較有意識去挑一些跟個資無關的，像果菜價格的整合、各個不同市場與天氣相關，還有災防相關跟空氣盒子、水品質，因為一條河不會出來主張個資，我們可以整合五個部會來辦民生公共物聯網，這個也是相當順利。主要是大氣、環境的東西的國際標準是非常成熟的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二方面，老師們用不同資料格式做出來的並不一定是很好的資料科學，並不是我好或者是你好，有各種資料都有模式，可能會有學派的差異，但是是好事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們在協調公共民生物聯網的時候非常順利，果菜也是，重點是協調的不是人，一方面是進入政府數位服務準則；第二，這個攤提下來是類似某個承辦人來換成其他人的效率，也就是讓大家服務。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "至少聽到數位轉型、數位流程設計是，並不是抗拒的心情，其是還不太懂，就是做到這裡，但是我想這接下來比較有能力來處理跟個資有關的事。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "災害發生的時候，都是消防署的EMIC，但是在社工司那邊，也就是人力、物資的收容所，其實社工司有一個重災系統，雖然可以連，但又扯個資的問題，因為好像收容所災民的資料其實還是用手寫的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個是兩回事，像究心之前有來問說他們有用自己的系統填能不能拋轉，我們協調成可以拋轉，那個已經開起來了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第二，有些一線的人員就是很不習慣用紙本之外的方法填，所以你一定還要有一個紙本謄答或者是OCR或者是怎麼樣的那一關，那個地方每一個地方導入的速度不一樣的，因此那個也跟消防署有過幾次討論，他們甚至提出一些是不是用人臉識別或者是什麼東西，後來被我們打回票了，我想那個沒有辦法，因為第一線的資訊填答的能力還不到那裡的話，我們放再多的拋轉技術下去，大概都沒有用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我們可以把第一線帶到一定的程度，尤其是市政府自己有這樣子意願的話，我們就會當pilot，但我們不會強求全臺灣都要適用，但是拋轉到衛福部，這是有系統化。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "我再補充一點，剛剛政委有問到目前現有系統有哪一些，我自己的預期是各個部會都會成立他們的系統，雖然財團法人法是說「得」設置，但是對於主管機關來講，要如何確認所有的財團法人都有公開他的財報？最簡單是你們全部都上來，在這裡全部收攏所有的資料，我的監管義務就解決了，所以其實很顯然可以預期在2月之後，各部會一定得自己弄一套平台出來。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "我聽到承辦人員的態度，如果像衛福部後台把資料放進去，就可以勾選要不要到，但是農委會的承辦人態度傾向是填資料是一個系統，我公告另外一個頁面，因為他覺得有一些董事資料，駭客看到什麼……所以也有可能填報未填報，公告未公告，不一定是系統，而是有一個區域，就是公告、掃描檔上傳，也許就是這樣，所以不一定會有多系統。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "掃描檔要另外建置？" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "頁面就是公開PDF檔之類的，就是現在的財報。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他們是已經有的，只是把一些資料、檔案放出來而已。" }, { "speaker": "陳俋潓", "speech": "網頁就是什麼專區，然後把資料上傳，上傳word或者是PDF檔，這樣就解決了，例如像政府捐助財團法人以前都要公開報告，就是整份掃描上傳而已。" }, { "speaker": "余孟勳", "speech": "我剛剛的意思其實並不是每一個部會都會自己新做一個，而是每一個都會擁有，不管是舊有或者是新的，一定都會有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這並不是一件壞事，如果還寫不出系統來，那當然是有東西才可以開始整合，就像當時不同果菜市場都是不同調查的方式，但是有些批發市場根本不調查，這個才是最困難的，但是一旦都有調查來了，我們再做欄位彼此確認，只要有承辦單位的意願，就可以看得到省他們時間、降低風險的話，拿既有的東西來是比較容易的，如果完全沒有既有的東西，那就拿別的部會說抄這個，其實對承辦來講是不可能接受的一件事，可以抄的是做事的流程、方法，可能是直接抄那一個系統本身。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天先到這裡，我回去進一步了解狀況。我們就保持聯絡，謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們和金管會對接的機制都還順利嗎？" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "我寫了一封函感謝他。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "現在他們怎麼樣？" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "我們很認真找專家、會商、律師把問題搞清楚以後，我就打電話，跟我們的窗口黃科長問他說我們現在有這個問題，就pass給他，就找相關的單位來並給我一個時間，我們就帶業者去會商。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣幾次了？" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "四次。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那還不錯啊！" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "而且綜合規劃處的林處長都有出現。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣真的非常好。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "我們在釐清問題的時候，因為我們不夠專業，所以問題沒有問到，業者來問的時候，馬上就有了，法規基本上問一些問題，然後他就說可不可以，然後就停了，那時就問得非常清楚，我們為了感謝金管會，會議紀錄是我們做的，也讓他們改很多，因為我們不善於做這個。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是，那是領域知識。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "所以第二次、第三次比較好，都是我們做紀錄的。我們第一次做、我們發，第二次以後是請我們發，OK的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以像這樣子的話，這個是常態性嗎？就是隨到隨辦？" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "對。所以我們開始很貪心，是不是可以跟衛福部、農委會有這樣的窗口。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是無人載具的話，想必跟技術處也得有這樣的窗口？" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "也希望有。其實我們也拜訪過。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上次辦活動的時候，他們也有來。不過那個還要一段時間，要等沙崙無人車真的開上去。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "技術處我們可以自己想辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以衛福部、農委會……" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "我們找不到適合的窗口，因為我們就懂這一些，要問到哪一些比較恰當，可能不知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。那就開始簡報。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "還是簡報一下。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "政委好、各位長官大家好，今天會有幾個部分跟提一下我們計畫辦理的進度。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "第一，我們在法規釐清諮詢服務的部分，一直到今年底為止，總計收到107案，今年期末有稍微檢討一下我們案件蒐集到的領域，我們希望可以看明年要推動什麼樣的項目。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "可以看得出來最主要我們平台收案的是以平台經濟領域案件為大宗，特別是在平台領域經濟之中，又以旅創產業第一。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "第二個是數位金融的部分，其實透過今年度我們跟金管會的前店後廠運作的話，相當程度解決了問題，如果我們還有收到數位金融的案件，我們會按照既有流程繼續運作。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "另外一個部分是，我們明年度會比較關注的是智慧醫療的部分，因為其實是在第三波，其實我早上有幾個跟業者在討論的議題，我們後續會作108度推動方向的說明。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "其實我們在年終做了一些計畫上的方向調整，主要是從106年度做到年中的時候，後來我們調整為以創新運用實驗整體的運作為核心，法規釐清變成我們現在整體實驗機制的其中一個項目，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "我們參考日本機制的經驗，現在設計六階段的步驟。業者提案之後，原則上我們會先請他們寫一個提案的實驗構想，大概是4至5頁的簡報，後續由我們平台這邊會跟外部專家開一個評估會議，請業者來進行簡單的說明。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "如果是金融科技或者是無人載具的話，是按照前店後廠的運作，讓他們到其他的專案計畫去協助處理，我們認為仍然需要沙盒實驗形塑的話，就由我們團隊來進行協助。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "有一些細部整體協調機制的規劃，比如提案評估的部分，最核心的部分是我們希望能夠在專家評估會議的計畫去判斷到底是不是一個適合我們這個計畫的進行來協助，或者其實還有其他政府的相關資源，或者是不需要經過相關資源協助就可以做到的一些事。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "第二個部分是剛剛提到法規釐清的部分，現在納入為實驗提案的子項目。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "第三個部分是我們整個計畫在協助業者計畫案時，最主要的是希望在溝通協調的部分，讓業者跟主管機關間形成能夠實驗的共識，希望把這樣的機制於108年度來做具體落實與推動，同時藉由案例的試推行，來驗證我們的機制有哪一些需要調整。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "這是我們專家評估收案機制的簡單規劃，現在是一個草創的規劃，我們預期先建立一個家名單資料庫，大概一次會選三至五位的專家，每個月會按安排兩次固定式的專家會議，並不是業者來遞案就是隨到隨收。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "這個評估的會議是讓專家們評估到底是不是適合進入這個機制當中，所以並不是像一般的審查案，我覺得性質不太一樣，我們希望能夠定性為不是行政處分的專家評估會議。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "後續，專家評估完畢之後就會回過頭來大家看到的機制運行，這個是今年度針對前半段的實驗規劃，包含落地機制的部分我們還在處理當中，這個是實驗機制的說明。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "（案例一說明）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們看平台上衛福部有給你們一個函，他們轄下的財團法人也允許設立閉鎖型子公司？" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "對，因為財團法人比較沒有像社團法人法當初有被擋到問題，財團法人本來就可以從事設立公司的部分。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為之前也沒有很明確的公開網站說這件事，所以大家都是用回捐或者是別的模式，但是我覺得有一個公開網站不只社團法人，財團法人也可以，在社會創新的推動上也非常有幫助，等於我們少接很多通電話，他們直接上網站就可以知道怎麼做。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "這我們會繼續追蹤。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "第二個部分，（案例二說明）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以這個案子我們事後還有追蹤嗎？或者是就這樣子？" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "目前先到這個程度，後續一個部分是，因為他們有提供預計效益的部分，是不是可以跟律師看看到底實際上與評估之間是不是有接近，也就是預期評估的效益。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可能過一年之後，要一點資料回來。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "這個也要看他們。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個並不是強制，畢竟我們自己也要有一個交代，我覺得這個沒有就沒有，但是有的話，相信他們也不吝提供。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "（案例三說明）" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "如果本案的部分涉及既存業者利益的問題比較大，有沒有其他的方向？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我現在聽起來有三個可能性：" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第一，觀光局自己有拋出來，就是把旅行業資本門檻適度降低，再鼓勵每一個地方集資去成立一個旅行社，如果那個地方沒有旅行社願意配合的話，這也是我們院裡經濟農業處的處長有提過的方式，因為這一種旅行社的特色是還是有所有旅行社該有的責任，並沒有因此而減輕，只是資本額比較少一點，我想這個是法遵最沒有疑慮，因為不需要再做一套登記系統給他，對現有旅行社相對衝擊少的解決辦法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之前有聽過另外兩個想法，一個是在地方創生優先推動地區，等於這一些地方本來很需要各種各樣的生態系，我們專門針對134處人口外流嚴重地區去運行一個比較低規管強度的實驗方式。但是這樣的話，就要是在地方創生提案計畫的一部分，這有一點像心理師遠端看診必須跟著醫師是一樣的道理，必須是地方創生總體規劃一部分的時候才可以執行，並不是在這個地方有一個治外法權。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "第三，你說有社會目的，就可以去進行這樣的實作，不過目前看起來爭議過大。因此我的建議是第三案不用特別去提。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "（案例四說明）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Pay for Success 法規的檢討，像老師所提出來的，我們可以自己先心理有一個底，當他們提出實際個案的時候，我們才不會擋路。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "尤其第二個的部分，我覺得可以先想辦法釐清一下，這個東西到底算不算一種證券。這算是期約投資嗎？" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "我想像是針對投資期約有價證券有兩個性質，是流通性跟投資性，一定要有這樣的要件，像這樣的模式，比較難想像先期贊助者到一半就會把投資契約轉移。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "甚至你可以明訂，不可以轉移。" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "某個程度上降低他的流通性，這個是有可能，變成有價證券是一個可以思考的方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，最後的函釋還是要金管會給，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "翟浩宇", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是要把這一個投資契約的形狀大概跟金管會說明一下，金管會要說如果是這個形狀，我覺得並不是證交法所轄，但是這個工作並不一定要等業者，如果業者已經要把投資契約逐字寫出來了，我們跟金管會關係還不錯，可以跟他描述一下，哪一個地方掐住就不會說是證交法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就算這次不提，Pay for Success的法規適用，還是會有別人提的。這個問題還是會來這邊，這個功課建議團隊先幫忙做。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像政府採購法倒是還好，因為一方面也可以用獎助或者是補助等等的各種方式，其實並不是採購；第二，這個若高過相關額度，像工程會、國發會就要加入了，如果是小額的話，好比像如果不到100萬的話，那其實什麼都不用寫。所以我覺得，我們自己先把這一塊的法規定性先弄清楚。" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "（案例五說明）" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "最後一個是業者有特別提到這一件事的好處是對越來越多取得執照的人，因為現在就算有心理諮商師執照的人，真正從業大部分是落在學校或一般機構，也不敢自己開業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很難自己開業？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "對，很難自己開業，所以有這樣的問題，這個問題可能延遲，因為衛福部在全聯會的意見沒有一致情況下沒有辦法動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這跟遠距醫療，然後心理師跟著精神科醫師的實驗，是分開的？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個已經確定可以？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這個是沒有跟精神科醫師合作的情況？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "對。因為他們的想法是依照通訊診療辦法規範的話，他們是網站業者、平台業者，如果是按照通訊診療辦法是卡在診所身上，還是精神科醫師主導。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "診所那個，有實際的案例了嗎？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "就我們了解是要去查地方政府，也就是提出來的才可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以那個沒有繼續追，只是協調到地方政府可以授權的地方？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這樣看起來是全聯會的內部事務，我們好像很難去要求職業團體一定要做什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是全聯會有給出任何的時間讓我們知道嗎？或者是要問一下？" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "我們後續做法是我們是不是有沒有辦法拜訪全聯會，因為全聯會已經拒絕業者的詢問，他們是開有一點像這個實驗內容的座談，但是全聯會態度已經很明確了，也就是沒有辦法參加。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得，拜訪一下沒有壞處。" }, { "speaker": "吳彥寬", "speech": "希望他們讓我們拜訪。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果他們說這個是會內事務，我們也不能怎麼樣。因此我覺得試一次，但是也不用試太多次。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "沙盒的實驗明年度變得非常重要，像剛剛有講機制，比如專家共同討論，所以這個案子對產業發展跟創新協助是不是有幫助，我們其實都在研讀這個東西到底要怎被做會比較好，因為時間也是有限，大家比較注重在規則，到底什麼樣可以落到實驗的階段，也就是對產業好的，我們走一步、是一步，到時候也請政委多協助我們一下看看怎麼做這一件事會比較好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "或者請政委當專家來看一次，告訴我們機制要調整什么，如果政委有時間的話。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "另外，未來除金管會有金融監理沙盒，還有很多部分需要協助，像與農委會、衛福部談一些合作，我們希望有這一些窗口來協助我們，看看有沒有辦法找各單位的綜合企劃處，明年1月1日以後再找也可以。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我理解。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們現在是這樣，這個案子如果是公開討論的，也就是各方利益關係人都來討論的，我們都有一個現有的機制，也就是開放政府聯絡人的機制。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但如果這邊講的不能公開討論，而是跟金管會一樣、是一對一的，也就是只對你們窗口的話，這個確實要另外設計。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個在我手上並沒有現有的機制，但是值得考慮。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "假設1月才要動，是不是可以把會想要給農委會、衛福部的案子先給我們看一下？因為院裡面有相應的院處，看到之後也會有一些建議。因此可能先不到部會，可以先跟業務處討論一下。" }, { "speaker": "程道琳", "speech": "好的，謝謝，今天報告到此。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我正好新年最後一個星期過來，一方面拜訪一下立法的事情，大家可以交流一下意見，也可以再想一下2019年新的計畫，看看大家有什麼東西可以一起配合做的，之前我知道Max跟政委有很多的溝通，我們內部對這個事情也很重視，像AIC都有把這個意見說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "坦白來講，任何政府的立法程序我們是完全尊重的，因為臺灣立很多法，平台業者也沒有出過什麼信函去說明，但有關於用戶一些利益的話，這個就是平台都會有共識，其實主要是卡在這邊。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我也說得很直接，因為主要是跟唐鳳政委這邊聯繫，跟其他政委不是很熟，他主要是從法律的角度來看這一些問題，聽下來有不同的多方看法，包括我們也跟執政黨立委有一些溝通，大家會想說是不是在這個過程中，是不是借鑒德國或者是法國模式，是不是會有一些落差、不清楚的地方，以至於臺灣在這一個立法的程序裡面是不是會有一些走樣或者是模糊的過程，這個是我們比較關心的。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們也因為看了媒體的報導，有一些好的進展，民進黨黨團也覺得可以到下一個會期再討論，大家可以有充足的時間，包含可以在公民團體，把很多事情都拿出來講清楚，這個目的讓大家把一些不同的觀點講清楚。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們的看法是立法可以很快，當你看立法的結果出來之後，你很難再把這個法推翻與改，這個很麻煩了，因此為何要很謹慎在這一個程序之前必須要有很完整的討論。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "因為我也不知道這個版本最後是怎麼樣，坊間有不同的傳聞、我們這邊也看到不同的版本、我們這邊最大的爭議是……行政機關有權判斷平台上言論的虛實而要求業者移除，這個我們很難接受，我相信其他平台業者也一樣，當然這可能不一定是最終版本……但我們知道行政院可能有討論這個版本。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "一個是有關於24小時下架的問題，在操作上沒有一個可行性，如果是去諮詢國際傳播學者，大家都會來講虛假資訊，去設一個時間上的限制，而要去要求下架，這本來就要影響整個下架過程中的一個決策，是有壓力說要去處理這樣的事。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "羅政委提出他的法律依據，德國NetzDG，有24小時的條文，但是NetzDG的主軸是針對仇恨言論來設定的，德國是對仇恨言論有立法——因為二戰的關係——所以大家的焦點是很不一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "羅政委另外有一個法律依據，他說法國有立法，也說是一星期或者是怎麼樣的限定時間之內在選舉期間可以要求平台下架，就是48小時。法國的程序很簡單，會類似像中選會這樣的機構去問法國的特別法院，去走快速的程序，申請一個臨時禁止令，然後再有臨時禁止令到平台那邊，我們可以在法國境內把資訊都封掉，這個我們是接受的，我說臺灣願意走法國的模式，通過法院去走快速審理的方式，我們願意配合，我們只是想要有一個完整合法的司法程序要走完，並不是依靠任何一個行政部門的指令去完成這樣子的動作。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "24小時時間上的限制沒有、拿掉的話，那就不存在給平台有一個附加的懲罰性條款，我不知道現在這個版本的真實性。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "但是這版本要罰錢，說如果24小時之內不下架的話，罰到平台業者什麼臺灣營收的百分之多少或者是怎麼樣，我不知道，我們大概也沒有辦法接受的，唐鳳政委您以前也舉過這個例子，虛假資訊這一件事跟以前垃圾郵件，從性質上來說可以說是一樣的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "結構是很相似的。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "你說虛假郵件，只要收到，叫Gmail罰錢，像Yahoo或者是Hotmail，歷史上都沒有做過這樣載體的性質，我覺得這個是羅政委或者是其他討論過程中對於網路的特性會是有一些模糊的，這個是我們最大困惑的地方。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "另外一個是涉及到用戶資料及用戶發布資訊所有權在哪裡，我知道Max也沒有拿出來去特別講，因為一講的話，好像大家變成美國跟臺灣之間的法律場上的矛盾了，但並不是說我們不尊重臺灣的法律，像Apple、Google、Yahoo都一樣的，當你同意使用FB的時候，你簽term of service的時候，你已經授權你的用戶資料以及你發布內容的所有data，他的控制權並不是臉書臺灣有限公司，而是FB Inc，換句話說是在美國加州註冊的有限公司，也就是我們的總部。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "從法律上來講，這個是網路管制的特性存在，說的更深入一點，這個是為什麼對於網路治理……我也想再補充講一下，為什麼受歐盟的法律保護跟美國的法律保護，專門有一個叫做DCA，保證第三方要獲取用戶資料時需要走什麼樣的程序，向美國法院去提出這樣的訴求。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個跟獲取用戶資料有什麼關係？" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "像臺灣的警方要調查一個案件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個是《通保法》的議題，跟我們在討論的這一件事，似乎是毫無關聯？" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "如果不涉及內容下架的話，像貼標籤就不涉及到我剛剛講法律上的糾紛了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解。不過，這個跟獲得用戶的資料，還是不同的議題。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "應該是說用戶在server上input的資料都是data，從外面來看有可能是用戶的個人資料，有可能是用戶的言論，對於這一種言論、內容也會在那個法令上認為是data。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，所以呢？" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "法律爭議是沒有太大的意義，如果這樣想進去的話，是民事法或者是刑事法或者是行政法。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "第二，即便這個data存在美國加州的話，還是要問臺灣的法律在那裡的效力是什麼？假設不要求美國公司提取你的資料，只做geoblock，完全沒有涉及資料保護的問題啊！" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "Geoblock理論上也不是下架嘛！我剛剛的意思是下架有幾種情況是可以完全下架的，在美國也可以做到的，因為你在使用任何service的時候，是甲乙雙方，一方是FB、一方是用戶。另外一個是美國的法律，其實好像憲法這樣的保護。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "如果違反FB的社群守則，我們有權把它徹底下架。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "理解，那個是一開始跟你的民事契約。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對，如果沒有違反的話，我當然不會下架。我舉一個例子來講，像選舉期間有一個用戶說要在幾月幾日刺殺某個候選人，這個東西中選會報過來的話，不用你去拿什麼法院判決，這本來就違反社群守則所以會下架的，這個不存在任何法律爭議，這個是甲乙雙方的問題。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "這個爭議在於中選會或者是誰出一個行政命令，說某些內容是虛假資訊，會干擾選舉的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「意圖使人不當選」？" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對。但是法院沒有這個判決的，我們也無從認定是否違反，因為我們沒有辦法來核實說這個有沒有意圖不當選。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "我覺得那個是兩回事，第一個是臺灣的法律是不是侵犯某一個權利，法律某一個程度的管制，就會有侵害權利。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "但是我們如果談管轄權，怎麼看我都不認為有一個公司在臺灣的商業，因為某一些東西受到美國的法律保護，臺灣的管轄權就不及於該家公司，這個邏輯上是非常奇怪的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "所以這並不是管轄權的問題，而是可不可以enforcement的問題。這是就法律討論。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "對，我們太法律討論了，其實太法律討論會有一點失焦，我先了解一下，畢竟我上次有開會，我想了解會議紀錄什麼時候會……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "12月31日公開。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "了解。當然這個出去之後，我不曉得大家會怎麼看，但是我們在那個會議上的立場也說得滿明白，當然您剛剛有提到現在又有新的版本或長什麼樣子。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "上次的會議意思，從行政院的角度來看，就是去年的院版，沒有所謂的新版本。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "院版的私權模式裡面，當然大家也有講說除了下架之外，到底警示算不算私權模式的適當處置，但是那個我們尊重立法院的討論。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "其實上次會議當中討論基礎，我們不用再講了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，上次其實是這樣子，我們收到兩個方向的意見，紅字跟綠字，來問大家能不能接受。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "大家都說不能接受，那就回到drawing board，就是這麼簡單。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "一樣，其實上次講的立場是一致的立場，不管是什麼版本，即便說尊重立法院提出他們的新版本或者是立法院的任何委員，不管是執政黨或者是反對黨，我們還是在兩個點上持反對態度，包括擴增行政機關認定不實訊息的權力，以及不給足夠的公眾時間討論，這個是我們比較堅持的，我們也希望至少在行政機關判斷不實訊息的權力那個快，如果未來還有不一樣的討論時，我們希望羅政委及行政院的任何長官，可以回到羅政委對外公開的那一些宣示，不會採取有侵害言論自由的手段。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。羅政委在記者會講得非常清楚，也就是言論自由一寸不讓，這個概念其實我們本來在會前討論時，就已經是說，今天是問大家覺得這個對言論自由的侵害情況，而各位都提出意見了。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "我們只是比較好奇，當然也是隨便聊，這樣的版本如果原本我們在會中沒有表達反對意見的話，行政院自己是認為這樣的版本並沒有侵害言論自由嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "之所以會有紅字版、綠字版，就是因為有不同的人有不同的意見，而這些都不是行政院的立場。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "行政院小組做的事，是把各方的意見——有些是學者、委員等等——提出來，我們確保每個人聽懂每個人在講什麼，我們的工作就到這裡。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們的立場並不是要一直反對，好像行政院跟平台業者是採取對立的角度，我跟台灣其他相關機關也是說，在虛假資訊的戰爭裡面，大家應該是站在一條線上的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "不是你要來怪我，我怪政府。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "重點是：問題有沒有解決。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對，完全是。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們現在綜合來看，我想講一些解決的途徑，大家還是想要解決問題，否則吵來吵去是沒有解決問題的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們現成在一些市場已經推行的一些辦法，其實也可以見證到是有效的，而目前最能夠直接拿到臺灣來做的就是第三方事實查核，比如在印尼，我們已經有三個第三方事實查核機構，一開始也是只有一個，菲律賓現在有兩個，法國、德國都有，這些事實查核機構都有拿到IFCN認證，而這個認證機制是最公平的，因為這個認證的目的就是確保查核機構的客觀與獨立。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們希望在台灣可以有經認證的第三方事實查核機構，可以在2019年與我們合作，可以將其判斷的結果接到平台上，加以標籤，這個也符合我們一貫的原則。因為在我們平台移除的原因就是違反社群守則，不然就是違反當地法律條文，但是要法院判決，我們則會採取地區屏蔽。除此之外的話，就是透過標籤為爭議訊息，透過演算法將該訊息降低排序，但我們仍會在保護言論自由的原則下，並不會刪除。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像是你點「垃圾郵件資料夾」，還是看得到那些郵件。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對，其實是一樣的道理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為機器學習，有時還是會誤判。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "那就會移回去。你這個比喻太好了。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "所以他這樣子做，我們覺得是最穩妥的辦法，我們也有跟他們商量過，像他們會去關心一些跟社會福祉與民生最有關係的，像「臺灣要地震」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「豬瘟會傳人」。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "或「愛滋病毒怎麼樣」。他們會不會去關心那一些？" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "但是退一萬步來講，像類似臺灣日本外館的事情，都不會去查證。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上TFC有去查證。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "但是後來沒有出結果。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "好像後來沒有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以參考看看：【錯誤】媒體報導：日本關西機場因燕子颱風重創而關閉後，中國優先派巴士前往關西機場營救受困之中國旅客？。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "這好像查證關西機場的事，但是沒有直接講到跟那個……" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "不是講蘇處長個人。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "不是講和蘇處長的關係。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "是講有沒有派巴士，那個我記得。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "這個我有看到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為這個是源頭，如果當時早一點查證出來的話，當然後面少很多爭議，我想這個是客觀事實。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我覺得從我們提供解決途徑來講，如果立院也覺得是貼標籤的這一件事是可以接受的，大家也有共識，我們可以往這個方向去做，盡快在臺灣將經認證的第三方事實查核機構加入到我的系統裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是。這一段談話，我們在去年1月26日，第一次見面的時候就講過了。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對。所以這個事情我覺得是可以做的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "剛剛講的是事實查核中心。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "沒有講外館的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。所以多方愈早能整合出解決方案愈好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像法國的CrossCheck，是許多媒體湊在一起做。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對，他們也有，而且他們之間互通有無。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，這個本來就是重建媒體公信力的方法。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "事實查核歸事實查核，我還是想強調媒體素養的重要性，因為事實查核可以短期去解決一點問題，就是去發現一些最厲害、最有爭議的，但是你如果長遠來看的話，最終能夠幫助整個臺灣社會去提高共識，還是要靠媒體素養，其實我們也是看到TIME雜誌對你的訪問，我記得是2016年年末或者是2017年初，臺灣好像第一個提出來。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，明年9月就上路了。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "那個我們很願意把我們一些培訓的內容貢獻給臺灣，至於怎麼樣的模式可以再討論，像之前哈佛Berkman Klein Center有制定一套網路安全的教程。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "其實有一些內容如果臺灣這邊覺得可以拿過來用的，歡迎自由運用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不然就CC授權出來？因為我們現在是各個課發會，自己選用自己的教材。這一次課綱的特色是所謂柔性課綱，所以也不能強求一定要用哪個教材。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "明白，這個內容都是公開的，網站上都有。你們可以把這個東西作為一個選項，作為教材裡面，也有中文版的，自己各取所須。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "這個是大家都可以去用。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想多方利益關係人討論網路治理，本來就是《數位通訊傳播法》的立法理由。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "無論經過什麼樣的討論程序，我們尊重立法院，但是假設它三讀了，會變成《數位通訊傳播法》要求行政院，來支持這樣的多方利益關係人討論，這個在草案裡是有明文的。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "可以從這個角度，其實有一個機會是臺灣可以把自己作為一個media literacy跟獨立第三方核查的model，並不是透過行政干預，這個是完全兩條路，也就是放在臺灣面前怎麼走的，歸根究柢，如果大家可以坐下來談，有足夠充分公眾討論的空間與時間，很多事情都可以解決的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這次也是因為你休假。休假還要處理公事，會有一些情緒…… 這是可以理解。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我當然也有自己顧慮，你們也知道，我們肯定會聽到不同的版本、不同的聲音，這裡面不排除會有不同的政治目的，想鼓勵我們做不同的事情，但是總而言之，前一段時間我們最大的困擾是行政院很急，好像一定要趕著處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "行政院是有一個承諾，年底之前要把法案送到立法院。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但其實是依羅秉成政委所說的，分波修法的概念。以羅政委在記者會上的論述，事實上在廣泛徵詢的時候，如同徐國勇部長在記者會那一天所說的，像《社維法》其實是有一個部務會議通過的版本，但是後來往各個方向徵詢之後，覺得那個版本在正當程序上，尤其訴訟嚴謹的程度上，會變成給行政過早的判斷權力——因為本來是要到簡易法庭，但是現在變成一個行政處分，所以有法學界的朋友提出不同的意見，所以就直接從第一波裡面拿掉了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以，按照羅政委的講法，行政院答應在年底給出第一波草案，這個是不能改動的時間。但是那個時間有什麼內容，是有彈性的。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "回到剛剛所提到的，像法國的模式，像臺灣的立法程序討論，是不是有這樣的可能性，比如臺灣也可以有簡易法庭禁止令的程序，如果大家覺得在選舉期間要這樣子做，需要有一個禁止令，我們不持反對或者是支持的立場在這一個事情上，只要你們能夠完成這樣的程序，我們都可以配合。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "研究比較法的各界朋友，最近也有提出一個可能，是選舉期間才作用的法律。以法國最近的《反資訊操作法》作為例子，是直接回去修改選罷法的條文，就是看那個法案的話，第一章就是要把選罷法第幾條調整什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "各種選項都是可以討論的，臺灣可貴之處就是任何選項都可以討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們的第一波草案，已經全部交給了立法院。在第二波的討論上，當然還是羅政委在主持，但是至少我們這邊並沒有說，一定要趕在什麼時候全部完成。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個時間上，我想除了上次Max來的那一次，除了年底一定要交第一批草案出來之外，其他時間是比較寬裕的。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "其實虛假訊息這一件事，並不是臺灣才有的，我們公司或者其他別家網路業者都知道這個是一個大問題，都知道這個要解決，只是解決的方式，就像剛剛很多交流，因為選項太多了，什麼樣的選項比較適合某個地方、哪一個地方適合臺灣，這個是可以很細緻地討論。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "對不起，上次的會議我們看到行政院秀給大家看的版本內容，實在嚇到了，因為跟12月10日下午的記者會及12月8日、9日聽到對外的訊息是有一點落差的，因此我們在會場上有比較明確的表示反對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個沒有問題。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "我想會在這樣的架構之下，再去討論怎麼樣找到適合的解決方案。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "事實上，各方意見來的速度，在那幾天是特別快的。甚至當天有一個意見，我當時也很誠實說「今天才收到這個意見」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因此並不是說我們堆著不處理，而是就在那幾天，因為大家都知道有個第一波的時間點，所以各方的意見都湧進來。" }, { "speaker": "Max", "speech": "在這個邏輯之下，因為剛剛有提到未來可能也沒有時間壓力，我們也希望在這一個過程中，不管是內部討論或者是外部資訊都可以比較透明。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "以我主持的部份，都會有逐字紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我在日本放假都有看你們LIVE的行政院記者會，行政院這一點很好，所有的東西全部直播。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我就講兩點，唐鳳政委大家都知道，對網路很熟悉，也肯定不會去排斥網路的東西，因為你本身就是從網路走出來的人。我看問答的時候，我比較concern的地方，比較少聽到政委或其他國家，又或者是部長……我記得羅政委有提到網路很像毒品一樣，這個不好、那個不好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "羅政委是說惡意的假訊息像新興毒品。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我是覺得也不用這樣講，這並不是網路的特性，社會裡面本來就有好人跟壞人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也不是針對網路，就是在講假訊息。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "羅政委也明確講到平台做了很多。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "感官上……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想主要的是，這個問題，是沒有辦法誰單邊做什麼就解決掉的，所以羅政委最後強調的是各方是夥伴關係。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為如果各方不是夥伴關係，我們力量彼此抵銷掉，那這個問題就越來越嚴重，事實上是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "像警政署那邊做得很好，他們很常有一些刑事案件。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想第一波修法裡面，大家都不爭議的地方，就是羅政委提到禁止境外的資金來資助競選、罷免廣告。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為《政治獻金法》本來就是規範只有國人才可以捐政治獻金。但變成一個情況是，境外不能捐政治獻金的，就買一些臉書廣告，這個進來是合法的，因為是合法的，所以中選會也不能跟你們講什麼，但是這個目前第一波修法有處理了。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "所以我說你們之前修的，其實除了匯流法以外其他一些法，我們沒有什麼太大的爭議，你看我們沒有反對……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "選罷法的部分？我想揭露廣告是第一步。兩層、三層實質控制什麼的，可能最後還是要司法認定。這個跟洗錢防制一樣，我想也牽涉到技術問題。" }, { "speaker": "葉寧", "speech": "法律上，當行政機關做什麼事的時候，會要有evidence base，不可能用說的。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "我們時間差不多了，我補充一下。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "你剛剛有提到，一路上這一段時間看到很多不同的訊息，我覺得也趁這個機會稍微澄清一下，不管是誰看到什麼版本或者是內容，因為說真的，行政院不管要提什麼，我們是有制度的：也就是行政院院會，以及院會後的記者會。如果沒有經過這個制度，不會是院內哪一個人提了什麼東西就說了算或者算數，我覺得這個觀念一定要清楚。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "第二，剛剛Max有提到，你對於那兩個堅持，像我在那一天晚上有提醒，我們要再講一次，不要去誤解行政院跟立法院間的關係，好像行政院可以去操控黨團。你看這兩天的新聞就可以知道，行政部門的決定，立法院並不是照單全收或者是聽我們指揮，坦白來講關係並不是這樣子，所以我跟Max聯絡說12月10日找大家來，我們能做的事是意見蒐集。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "而有一個功能是，因為我們有逐字稿，唐鳳主持的會議都有逐字稿，未來這一件事到立法部門處理的時候，可以說這個意見已經講過，這樣比較完整。" }, { "speaker": "黃子維", "speech": "最後，像TFC我是完全不熟，你們跟他們合作是？" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "大家有意願，但也有很大的顧慮，因為如果有行政干預的話，那還要第三方事實查核做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想再引述一次羅政委的話：「自律做的到，政府沒必要管，也不用管。」如果有一個運作很良好的自律機制，他律對大家都是比較重的負擔；甚至如你所說，如果是法院快速審理的話，對那個法庭本身也是很重的負擔。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也許在正當性上，馬尼拉文件說judicial take down的正當性（選項5）是最好的，但是並不表示法院會因此變得很容易做這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "對，馬尼拉原則你比我還清楚。如果自律運作正常的話，誰也沒有想到他律要提高到多高的地方。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以越早讓大家看到自律有哪些可能性，各方就越容易討論。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為您剛才提到「各國沒有對垃圾郵件罰錢」，其實當時很多國家是有討論的，有些國家也通過了相關的立法。只是後來技術社群合力把它解決了，所以後來就比較沒有人再提。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想這個歷史是在重演，但我想結構是相似的，也就是自律的生態系，越早做出來給大家看越好。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "我們這一塊會很積極去推，對大家、三方，不管是行政院、社會公眾或者是平台業者都是可以拿得出來現階段的解決方案，這個問題不可能一夜之間解決，至少要往解決方向去處理。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒錯，完全同意。" }, { "speaker": "陳澍", "speech": "謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So we’re on the record according to the radical transparency protocol." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yeah, very cool. We’re live." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not really live... You get to edit it." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’re recorded." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "First of all, thanks for having us. You’re an inspiration. The first time I heard you speak was at Meet Taipei. We’re Unitychain, by the way. I’m Joshua." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Jon." }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "I am Juin. Nice to meet you." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’re all Js." }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "All Js. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’re working on solving blockchain scalability. We think our approach may have figured out a way to stay decentralized, secure, and have great speed, which is formally known as the Trilemma, coined by Vitalik. We do this through use of what we call the Unity Protocol and DHTs." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’re in Taipei. We love Taiwan. Jon’s been, for a while, doing Taiwanese. I’ve been here now three months, and I’m otherwise living in San Francisco. I think we’re going to have an R&D department in Taipei for a very long time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Awesome. Where are you based at the moment? Do you have a office here? Oh, do?" }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "A small one." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "We’re based out of Impact Hub, near [Chinese]." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You’re a neighbor with a lot, actually, social innovators, and the Gogoro Charging Station. [laughter]" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Exactly, yes. We’re on first floor, so we often hear the, \"whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop.\"" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s exactly what I mean." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "It’s like singing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Cool." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "It’s great to hear what you’re doing, just in the broad scope of Taiwan, and how radical your approach is. Even with the IoT stuff and blockchain, I know that you guys are quite familiar with Iota." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Which we recently studied. Juin just did a deep dive on it. He’s our lead researcher. We like to study all different types of protocols to learn from different projects. We think it’s important to keep an open mind, because it’s such an interesting field, a lot of things to consider." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Certainly, we think that we’re working on important technology for society. We’ve recently created a proof of concept, maybe it’s relevant to show you, actually. We have a video." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "OK, I’ll pull that out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Is it public? Is there a..." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "This is actually, unfortunately not. This is just for us. This is like, Christmas Eve, we had it. We just recorded it." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "The core concept here, there’s not too much to show right now, but basically, we have a blockchain running from a DHT. In case anyone’s wondering, DHTs are distributed hash tables. They are incredibly scalable. It should be able to handle up to, frankly, millions, of nodes." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "It’s technically infinitely scalable, with more nodes in the network." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "What you’re about to see is a very rudimentary, hard-coded proof of concept, but we have a DHT implementation called Kademlia. We were running very basic, rudimentary Unity Protocol consensus on it. This is our CTO speaking here." }, { "speaker": "Larron Armstead", "speech": "Now, what it’s doing is it’s actually seeding. It’s seeding a bunch of, we hard-coded these public and private keys. It just did some seeding, contacted the nodes, and said, \"OK, let’s make these addresses, and set these balances,\" basically. That’s what just happened there on that side." }, { "speaker": "Larron Armstead", "speech": "Now, we have the UI. I’m going to refresh this. That’s riggy right now, but that’s where we’re at. The first thing you have to do is get wallets, and that’s just a hack right now to make it load the seed file, basically." }, { "speaker": "Larron Armstead", "speech": "There, we just loaded it into a DHT. These are logs of what’s basically happening. Now, these are all the public and private keys, basically, just all the addresses that we have loaded. Right now, we can start transactions. It’s just going to do 10 random transactions. Boom, it’s just randomly doing it now. This one’s a bad, so we add and do bad ones, too." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Nice. Just to show that it’s not always a consensus?" }, { "speaker": "Larron Armstead", "speech": "Exactly. We don’t have the full consensus in yet. We need to mess with DKG, and mess with having more masters. It is storing in a DHT right now." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That’s basically the concept. These errors are showing that there isn’t consensus being reached. This is the early stages. This is the precursor to our test net. We’ve only started developing on the actual coding of this about five weeks ago, but we’ve been focused on just research in the meantime." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "There’s a lot of things we could learn from other projects, first of all. Like Laren just mentioned DKG, distributed key generation. There’s a project called Dfinity that we’ve learning from. It turns out some of the mathematics they use is similar to us. There’s some properties that are similar in our approach, which is good to see." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That we’re not in a complete black box, that there are other people smarter than us looking into this and qualifying and validating these ideas." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Some of the innovations are the architecture, using a consensus on a DHT. Also, Unitychain consensus itself. We have a layer of Unitychain, called RNG Protocol. It’s basically a very unique way that we come up with an authentic random number." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On-chain randomness." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yeah, on-chain numbers, not random generation." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Finally, we utilize DID, or decentralized ID, in our system, because actually, we feel like in order...Of course, it’s a civil prevention mechanism, to have one person, one node, one vote. That’s kind of our mantra." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "We believe that a public blockchain should be of individuals and real people. It’s almost very democratic. We believe those are the things that set us apart." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’re happy to meet you, and to start to build a relationship with you. As we make developments, product upgrades and updates, it would be great to periodically, maybe once every quarter, just, \"Hey, this is what we’re doing,\" just so you’re aware of it." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We wanted to ask you a couple questions. Juin, you had a couple questions about just the ecosystem?" }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "Just some general questions, since Audrey is now the Digital Minister. We would like to hear some of your advice on the...They’re not Taiwanese, so how can they...What’s your opinion on the open source community in Taiwan? What’s your general advice on that?" }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "I think how we can integrate more. My wife is actually Taiwanese. She’s also considered a co-founder. Just ways that we can, as a company, be more integrated with Taiwan. Maybe have some help from the government?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Open source is a national priority. We directly fund, for example, the Taiwan Open Source Software Collaborative thing, twoss.io which mostly showcases two existing ecosystem, why it’s a good idea to have open source contributors, what kind of open source solutions have worked." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Whereas before, only proprietary software has occupied those positions, and how those shiny new technologies, because of accountability requirements, watching governments and so on, almost have to be open source." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That concept has to be explained over and again to existing players, and so on. It is mostly an industry awareness project. You can find the relevant details at twoss.io. The other thing that we focus on is in education." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We make sure that in the basic education -- that’s to say K to 12 -- when the students are exposed to digital technologies for the first time, they own it in a kind of personal computing kind of way. That means that the schools are highly encouraged to use open source solutions." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If the students, after graduation, choose to use proprietary software, that’s their choice, but we’re not going to create vendor lock-in as part of basic education. That covers with the broadband as human right and the national computation platform making." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s very easy for the students to experiment on GPU and related technologies. It means that we think it will be a democratizing force, instead of leaving parts of the population behind. That’s the basic education. The new curriculum, embedding these values will be rolling out next August. It’s called [non-English speech], or the 108 curriculum." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can find all those details, including how we’re moving from a skill set-based education to a character-based education. Because these are being ultimately the way, but these are core to cure humanity." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we focus on sustainability and things like that, are all part of the new curriculum. You can find that in the K to 12 new curriculum website, at, I think it’s NAER, the website. That’s open source, also plays a large part." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Finally, and more personally, interested in getting the procurement process to be open by default. It is not just open source, but actually the publication of the procurement data, and making sure that the open API, which is a Linux Foundation standard, is embedded to the same degree as the accessibility standards." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "So that, for example, now when their government procures a website, it needs to be available, not just to sighted people, but also for people with blindness. Then we say, in the same vein, machines are kind of blind people, too." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If you don’t make it accessible to machines through APIs and make it human only, then the vendor could be disqualified for being unprofessional, or for charging extra to do an API. Basically, API-first procurement through government digital service guidelines." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s something I think, longer term, will have an equally if not more impact than open source procurement. If you buy open source, but then it depends on a huge proprietary database, that open source is not very useful." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "On the other hand, if you build a large proprietary interface, but then mandate that it has to talk through open APIs, then it makes it very easy for MSMEs, for medium and small businesses, to build around the public API, even though the core may be proprietary. That’s the overview." }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "Do you think that the government, like for example, now we’ve seen some countries, Europe, they’ve started to utilize blockchain, integrate the system into their...Do you think that’s the future?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’re using distributed ledgers already on these, but mostly for accountability, for cheap. It’s an easy way to build an append-only audit log, for example the AirBox project." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Which, of course, when integrated with the government data in CI.taiwan.gov.tw, people here worry about the government mutating their data. People in the government worry about people confusing these data sources with more official data sources. It’s a large debate in Taiwan." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Using DLT, people can make sure that nobody goes back to time to modify those data. That makes it easy for people to trust each other. That’s especially true because the computation center is in the National Center for High-Speed Computation, the NCHC." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We have a collective intelligence, ci.taiwan, which will be the TW website that basically shows how we aggregate all the meteorological data, all the air quality, water quality, the disaster recovery. There’s an English version, too. Recently, we just held a competition on how to best make use of these aggregated data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "DLT plays a crucial role, because people have to trust that even with the huge number of GPUs that the NCHC has, it cannot disrupt the validity of the public chain. I think that is crucial. One of the winning teams actually, in this competition, I think makes a very good use of AirBox data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s basically looking at PTT, which is like Reddit. It is a local bulletin board. Whenever people start talking about air quality, it may be old data. It may be a rumor, it may be great news, or whatever. People gather around and talk about it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "They wrote essentially a chat bot, a bot user that just automatically puts in the latest measurement, with beautiful visualization, and phrased in a way that’s not government speak, but actually Chinese speak or netizen speak, and engage." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, everybody knows that it’s a bot, but they can participate in the discussion to steer the discussion into a more evidence-based direction. It’s a really good use, and if people question about the bot’s authenticity, accountability, methodology, then the creators can say it’s all open source." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "You can check the evidence trail, and the data you use is also on the DLT, if you really want to check that, and so on. It’s a cheap way to get people to trust each other more. We have many uses for along that lane, but not as cryptocurrency." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "DLT, for sure. DLT is what we’re also framing ourselves to be DLT launching, not cryptocurrency. We will have likewise some unit of measure for computation services. Speaking of education, you mentioned one of them as part of our community-building efforts, we actually will be focusing a lot on education." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We know that if you create great quality content once, it’s very, what do you call it? The costs of letting an additional person have access to it is basically minimal. We will produce a lot of quality content and educational material, and that will be broadly, of course. It’ll be just about DLT, at least to say, \"This is what we’re doing at Unity Chain,\" just a little of that." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That’s certainly, we think it’s important education, sharing the information, and getting people involved. Especially from the young age, so high school to college. Create some programs to help them out and initiatives." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "There’s a lot of brilliant people that are in school, and even not even in a school. I’m a college drop-out." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I’m a junior high school dropout." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "I’m not even going to send my kids to school." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "No, but seriously, also, in Mandarin, too. We’ll do it in English and Mandarin. We’ll do translations. We see that Taiwan is a great location geographically. Also, with Southeast Asia, it’s easy to get to Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, China." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Also, politically." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Politically, yeah. A lot of people speak English. Great resources, high IQ, on average, so that’s great. Actually, when I met Jon, he was in Taiwan. If it wasn’t for Vitalik, I’ve heard him talk about Taipei or Taiwan a few times." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "If it wasn’t for that, I probably would have been a little more skeptical, like wait a second." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "I think we made the right decision. My first time here was in June, July. We’re still a startup, very much. We’ve been self-funded until now. Things are moving fast, and we’re very optimistic that we’re on the right path." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "This is important technology that we want to bring to the world. I think more than anything, we would love to, as we make these milestones and hit these milestones I’ll show you...We’re actually, we’re not forking the existing chain, and just doing a proof of state, concept. We’re doing a whole new model." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "As a result, of course, you don’t know exactly how it’s going to unfold. If we’re able to pull off what we think we can pull off, or create something that is more fair, more democratic, more open, and potentially more impactful for the world." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’d love to keep you updated on this as we move forward. You’re an inspiration to us. It’s super cool that someone in government would have someone like you put in such an important role." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "At Meet Taipei, Juin was like, \"Oh, you guys have to see Audrey speak.\"" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "I was like, \"Whoa, yeah. ML, machine learning, AI, blockchain.\"" }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Anarchy. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "I personally saw some of Audrey’s videos on YouTube already, and really inspiring. I just told them that, \"Hey, you’re going to see it.\"" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "I did." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I am that kind of minister, too." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Two years ago, I became the Digital Minister. My first visitor outside of the administration subject to this radical transparency rule is Vitalik." }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "Oh, wow." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I really enjoyed the talk. It’s all on YouTube, anyway. We talked, especially around openness. At that point, everybody understand that the broad spectrum of Ethereum is one, [laughs] and how to make governance work." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We talked about liquid democracy. We talked about all sort of different governance possibilities. Of course, with some imminent milestones, it’s easier. People start getting their act together once climate change become very serious." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "It’s getting serious already." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Right. That’s like imminent existential topic triggers a governance change. That’s essentially what Vitalik and I agreed on two years ago. I saw that you’re also working on governance through your Gnome Validator node system." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "We believe governance can only be really achieved if it’s truly a democratic public chain. One person has one node only. I think it’s much easier to have on-chain governance built in." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Blockchain is perfect for governance, at least for voting. That’s clear. As long as you can prove one individual, one node, or one individual, one entity. Then, of course, liquid governance, the ability to delegate your vote and change it with a few clicks." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "It’s a direct democracy. That’s the way it should be. I’m sure the Founding Fathers of the United States, had they known about this technology, they would have designed it that way. Why wouldn’t you? We are thinking about on-chain governance from the beginning, and we’re designing it." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s good." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Actually, that’s one of the beautiful things about going last in this game. We got to see all these other projects, like Tezos that just focuses on governance. OK, that’s interesting, a study that we said..." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We got to study these protocols, to pick and choose the parts that we liked, the parts that we didn’t think worked out very well. We’re trying to build a unified plan, of very long-term thinking. I personally believe that this type of technology is game-changing." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "It’s simple, in a sense, but I don’t think, originally I didn’t realize how much non-trust there was, how many middlemen, non-trust, and how important transparency was. Of course, you say that, it sounds like, \"Yeah, it’s obvious.\"" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "When it’s technologically and mechanically proven to provide that kind of capabilities, it does change society on a big, big scale." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It does." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "It changes things, really, We are thinking about on-chain governance. I think the future of government is going to be direct democracy. If not on planet Earth, at least on Mars." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure. We’re doing our part by handing out PKIs to foreigners as well. There’s [Chinese]. There’s this combo card with IC and NFC interfaces that we can currently use to file taxes and whatever." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just last year, we started handing it out for foreign people as well. People told us that the digits don’t look the same, because the national ID here has the digital as the second letters, the letters as the second letter for foreigners. That’s going to change, too." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "It’s all going to be unified." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s all going to be unified with numbers. Foreign people becomes like A7, or 8, or 9, where we are like A1 or 2, or 0. I’ll be using the zero." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think it all speaks to a much more, as you said, a more digitally aware way of the building blocks of democracy." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That’s wonderful, that’s wonderful. Actually, I’m curious, I would love to hear in a snapshot, what do you think the world’s going to look like in 20 years?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Wow. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "I would love to see you think the world is going to look like in 20 years, as far as let’s just talk about governance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "First of all, I am not a crystal ball. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "I know, of course." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I tend to think that the future is already here, just not evenly distributed. We see a lot of potential futures. In Taiwan, what I can say for sure is that 20 years from now, the Jade Mountain will be exactly one meter higher, because it’s growing five centimeters every year. [laughs]" }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "We know that. We know that’s true." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s a metaphor, too. If you’ve been to Taroko Gorge, you can see how the plate tectonics clash, the Pacific on one side, and the continent on the other side. That’s actually what shapes Taiwan. In 20 years, we’ll have as many earthquakes and typhoons as, maybe more, because of climate change." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That describes not just the meteorological, as measured by the civil IoT system, but also the social changes as well. The authoritarian past, and the democratic future is going to clash event more violently than we saw in the referendums the past month." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "If we do our earthquake prevention right, if we do smart governance through accountable and transparent institutions, then everybody raises higher. As you said, in a more benefiting from the plurality — we get to curate from the best of the direct, participatory, and representative democratic thoughts." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s if we make the society itself resilient enough to survive these ideological clashes. That’s for Taiwan. Whatever happens to humans, the Jade Mountain will raise." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That’s for sure. That’s one thing I’ve noticed. I have lived in different parts of Asia before, in Hong Kong, some time in China, in South Korea. Taiwan is very progressively, politically, and the society." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Small things like not having trash cans all over the place keeps it clean. Sure, Taipei, especially is an older city, but it’s a clean city. That goes to show a lot about just the people. It’s interesting." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just this space, there’s a lot of thoughts put into universal design, accessibility, and things like that." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That was wonderful. You guys have any other questions while we have Audrey’s time?" }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Yeah. That was our proof of concept that we showed. We’re also working on RNG protocol. It’s interesting, because we’re trying to create a non-deterministic random number generation using live data, having consensus on the nodes that get the live data, and it goes through a morphing algorithm." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Essentially, we were solving a problem that we want to, for our chain, we want a higher level of random number generation for security, and for also equitability, so everyone has an equal chance." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Scalable consensus." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I have read the light paper; I know the math." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Not all of it, but an overview of the problem space." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "That’s great. Actually, you mentioned the IoT all around Taiwan, trusting government sources. These are, maybe at some point, actually, it would be pretty cool if we could integrate with that data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That’s right." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Pull in high entropy sources from barometer data." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "From sensors." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "From sensors, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "As long as you go to the DSP, you can see through the sensor things platform all the existing..." }, { "speaker": "Juin Chiu", "speech": "Audrey passed the UI over to our channel, so check it out later." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "We’ll have a larger grant/competition next year, anyway. Feel free to make creative use out of it." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Wonderful. That sounds great. We do have a lot of cool things under the hood that we’re planning. Anything we have on our website is just our, we didn’t publish everything. We’re actually working with a couple of PhDs in January that are experts in DHT, distributed hash tables." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We’re doing the right thing by sourcing out and connecting with people that are smarter than us, or more expert in different fields, bringing them together, and sourcing the right people." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "I have one more thing. We’re thinking on the lines of when we should open source. We have this idea of seeding our network with ultimately good actors, hopefully. Our idea is to see the network with at least 30,000 nodes before we open source. That was the idea, to just protect us in the short run." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Closed beta and stuff." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yeah, it’s like a closed beta." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Is that aligned with..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That sounds good." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Cool, like a milestone where we feel like the network is..." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "For early participants, you probably have to do at least read-only source access to the people running those nodes, because otherwise there could be a bottleneck for..." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Take over the government." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "No, totally. We’ll make it clear that it is our 100 percent intention to open source it, once we feel like we’ve sufficiently seeded it with a majority of good actors. These systems can be delicate. I appreciate your time so much." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "The open source community, I think, appreciates a project that is not just put out as a package, but actually has some discussion and some internal conversations around. That’s actually, when I was working with Apple, I think they handled the Swift open source really well." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "It’s not just a shiny new language putting out there, but actually a real community, and also seeded with good actors, so to speak, and with the full intention of getting it portable to non-macOS systems, and fully interoperable by intention on day one." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Of course, that delayed the open source a lot. They had to put everything together for the project to be in a useful position on day one, when it’s open source. There’s an internal user group thing. I think developing in the open, in the front of those early adopters, makes a lot of sense." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Just make them, not just early adopters, but essentially collaborators. They don’t actually have to understand the code, the math, and whatever, but they can join with the confidence that they are running something that they are part of." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "That creates also loyalty to the community. Especially if you’re running it as a liquid democracy thing, I think it’s very important that people understand that, just like the electoral law, and all the interpretations, they are all free of copyright. You can’t get sued if you copy the laws itself." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "I think at least the core rules pertaining to the liquid democracy, that really needs to be completely open." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Absolutely. Basically, I just want to make sure we’re on record that we’re committed to open source, and to participate that route. It’s just a better way to develop, anyways. Thank you so much for your time." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "We will definitely stay in touch." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Maybe we could set up another meeting in three month or so." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yeah, just to show you guys what we’re doing." }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Checkpointing." }, { "speaker": "Joshua D. Tobkin", "speech": "Yeah, checkpointing, exactly." }, { "speaker": "Jon Jones", "speech": "Can we have a photo?" }, { "speaker": "Audrey Tang", "speech": "Oh, yeah, sure." } ]

[ { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你看完了感覺？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你說哪一個版本？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你先講一下，隨便你講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得找心理師很棒。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你應該知道我們為什麼要找心理師？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不知道。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "每一次的採訪，整個過程是動態的，每一個家庭之所以願意來接受我們採訪，通常有兩個目的，第一個是想要曝光理念或什麼，第二個是真心想要找一個名人明星去他們家吃飯，南澳村長的那一集，村長上過媒體，他很可愛，所以採訪他家。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "後來他的兒子開放地分享自己困難的三角關係，還沒有播之前我們臉書寫出故事大綱短文出來，然後就罵聲不斷，我們那時就警覺這需要有一個人hold住，理解故事裡的人在各種關係裡發生的困難，所以就找了心理師，請他來幫忙理解關係是什麼，心理師解說之後，對我們製作團隊來說也是新學習，其實他說了一個有意思的觀點，人一出生就是三角關係。多數人，一出生就處在自己跟父母的三角關係裡面。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我自己是三代同堂，主要照顧者大概七個人起跳。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是至少一開始每一個人生下來，家裡有兩個照顧者的話，至少是三個人，當然心理師解說之後，同理村長家庭的每個人的生命歷程之後，讓許多觀眾有所理解，之前罵他是渣男的聲音銳減。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "這一集會這麼做是因為燒賣一直被攻擊，其實我有看到你在留言。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我都有跟，兩個都有看。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "謝謝。你是同時看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我都有在看。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你有看電視嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我沒有看電視……應該這樣說，我家裡有電視機，但電視是用來show電腦的螢幕。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們沒有替任何人說話，但是老實說我背後有一個用意，不希望我們的受訪者被罵，任何你覺得不符合社會規範的那一種人，我們都要理解背後生長的過程。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我理解，這個是你們策展理念。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是我們內部討論有一個聲音，不見得每個家庭想要找一個專家來分析，後來的決定是得徵求家庭同意，要是你，你怎麼看？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "他有明確表示不要嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "沒有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為也沒有問他，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對。但是我告訴你，其實燒賣老婆看了南澳那一集之後有問我們，我們跟他解釋網路版有實況主版來陪讀但不會分析，他說燒賣可能不希望來分析他，但是我說那不叫分析，那個叫做陪看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "直播主。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "就是直播主陪看。但是我相信有心理師的存在會比較好，因為他其實就是幫每一個角色說話的人，簡單來講就是同理並理解每個角色，也讓觀眾理解日常家庭關係裡都是學習，每個人的焦慮也都可能出自於自己的擔心害怕。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我個人覺得效果很好，但是燒賣的感受如何，我真的不知道。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "所以支持我們繼續這麼做嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這不是支不支持的問題。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "開玩笑的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就像你講的，如果沒有直播主陪看，網友自己也會補上一大堆詮釋，而且可能更負面，有人擔任類似聊天室管理員的角色，確實是有必要。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但這個問題是，因為你們找的人是專業者，所以其實是雙重身分，並不是單純的直播主或者是網紅，也不是所謂陪看，大家會覺得講出來是有學理的依據，我會覺得這兩個多多少少可以切分開來，我覺得找一個有好的溝通能力跟詮釋能力，就像你講的，可以「站在每一邊」的角色，這絕對是正向的，而且我相信是受訪者也不會反對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我覺得現在像你們內部討論或爭議，是因為有專業心理師的資格，今天找的是一個一般性的主持人，我想大家不會有什麼爭議。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對。反而專業性的人會增加那個爭議的點，然後會覺得你用你的威權來介入我的家庭故事，當然威權也幫助大家看事情有別的值得參考的角度。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，以前沒有證照，現在有證照，幾乎他講的等於有一個權威性。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我想助人專業者，是建立在類似信託關係，我找一個律師，因為他幫我保密，所以我願意告訴他，我的事情，我找一個心理師，他願意幫我保密，所以我跟他講家裡的事情。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是這一位跟燒賣的家並沒有信託關係，因此變成產生信託關係而產生社會公共權威效果，但卻沒有事前有任何保密或這一類的合同，所以我會覺得未來如果你找的人有這一種雙重身分，也就是同時是很厲害的直播主、也具有某種助人專業，那我覺得這邊取得同意是多少必要的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個其實有一點像我們在校園拍東西的狀況，就是做的事情並沒有什麼不好，但是事前問一下，絕對會更好。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "還有其他的建議嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得稍微未剪版還不錯。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "幾乎全都放。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "而且包含連跟OS的對話都放進去，我覺得那個是很加深臨場感，就是人在拍片現場的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們還沒有足夠的資源拍得更後設，如果有一機還take我們團隊的話，也許會更有趣。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我看VR電影《5×1》裡面有一場，趙德胤導演的《幕後》，在拍片的片場放台VR，就可以看得到左後方是導演團隊、右後方是什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但我覺得這個跟你們的策展理念沒什麼關係？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "如果我的策展可以再擴大一點的話，每一次吃飯的時候，我再放一架VR，然後再進來互剪。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是VR有一個事情，其實不太符合我們的觀看習慣，所以其實比較像做炫的，對不對？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，更有臨場感而已。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是可能也只需要60秒，不需要60分鐘。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是用來當預覽，現在本來就會放60秒，或者是事前打一些小廣告，放在那裡是最適合的。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "內容？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得劇組引導的節奏很不錯。OS很棒，而且OS留下來，那個一刀未剪，那個是常態嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們有放這一種幕後花絮，但是沒有放那麼長。因為你說話的內容比較有密度。有的會覺得有些冗長。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以剪掉就算了？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對。如果那一天的談話密度很高，我們比較好剪。我們還是剪掉一些了，但最後的版本已經一個小時，所以其實沒什麼剪。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這應該是稱讚。謝謝。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "因為你講話裡面，有太多訊息，所以就留下來。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們有一點沮喪的是，我們Youtube的數字……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很低？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是FB觀看次數的零頭。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "FB有3萬多，粉絲3萬多……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可以了啦。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "如果要比現在的網紅，隨便一個就是2、30萬，然後Youtube一個也是2、30萬，我們的確，單則有到20萬，但訂閱率還是很低，大概1萬8。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們不是走衝突行銷路線，所以這好像不能放在同一個量尺上比。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "如果要繼續行銷的話，要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們想要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "其實我自己的想法是，不知道是不是天方夜譚或者是很可笑，誰來晚餐已經十年了，明年要做第十一年，已經做了400個臺灣的家庭故事，所以是臺灣庶民文化的image back，所以我們希望全世界的人，如果想要了解臺灣社會長什麼樣，也許google一下，所以這個的確是我想要做的事，就是把我們變成一個庶民文化的影音資料庫，至少誰來晚餐，通通翻譯成英文，翻譯了兩年，明年是第三年。但是你會覺得這樣的努力是不是有效？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你有沒有看過TED的網站？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "有，當然有。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是把字幕單獨一欄顯示，然後字幕開放網友去翻譯。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是TED是TED。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們品牌好感程度不輸TED，只是觸及率不高而已。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "如何增加觸及率呢？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是讓大家參與、有一點事做。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "分享的方式是什麼？就是自己講說請大家來做？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "或是挑錯字。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "就這樣？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你把字幕公開出來，就是像維基百科一樣，我們常常甚至會放一些有瑕疵、問題的、不確定的，大家就來挑錯字，我主持一個計畫叫萌典，萌典是把教育部的國語字典、台語字典、客家語言字典放出來，我們請大家來是同一個詞，引用了某一個書證，就是以前的某一個經典，另外一個字也是引用這個，但兩個引用的是有錯字，以前叫萌典，也就是抓蟲，邀請大家當啄木鳥，來抓蟲。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這整個都是開放參與，你來看這到底有沒有蟲的這一件事，本身就很好玩；第二個是抓到蟲之後，很低的成本就可以做一點事，做的時候並不會想要埋頭自己做，而是想要找人一起做；第三個是大家覺得這個過程中，可以創造出一些新的價值，好比像當時我們找人來，然後說一定是錯字，因為是兩個不同的詞條，但引用同一段，引用的時候顯然有人打錯字，所以大家會選脫險是對的，脫臉是錯字，有人還會留言脫臉很奇絕，沒有人拍過這個電影。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以光這一件討論的本身，在PPT、別的地方又紅了一次，所以每一次很快速就可以找很多人來做一些事，其實我做什麼，沒有，我就是確保每一個引言、書證可以分享開放授權的標的物而已，Ted的字幕就是有這樣的效果，你看到某一段，那一段就特別放到Twitter跟Social media上，這一句話讓我最感動，這個是最常用的做法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有沒有辦法焦點、翻譯或什麼，也就是找人來的時候，這等於是我的工作的事，而且這個技術上非常容易。" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "是分享到網路上？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，字幕都是現成的，應該有字幕檔（SRT）之類的，如果你們有架網站的預算，就是在Youtube上把SRT放上去，然後說開放網友貢獻，這是最基本的到這裡就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我現在已經找人，因為我在我的電視上，也就是你現在看到的中文字幕，你的意思是可以徵求其他語言的文字？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "先把英文捐出來，因為著作權是你的，你可以直接說拋棄著作權。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我這樣怎麼捐出來？是可以自己下載？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，就開放改作。" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "但是我們上去的影片已經有字幕？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "也還好。如果Youtube是有人翻西班牙字幕，你把它蓋住就好了。" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "我們徵求其他的文字？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，先把中文跟英文的字幕一大堆SRT檔放在某個讓大家都可以下載的地方，最簡單的是上到Youtube去，其實FB也可以放這個字幕檔，FB就按到影片、編輯，然後就會開始下載SRT檔，只是FB就不能讓社群來幫忙翻譯而已。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "Youtube是做了同一件事之後，就可以說請社群來幫忙翻譯，你可以先挑某一集試試看，例如我那一集，然後再看有沒有人法文之類的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你們目前錄的時候，有沒有用英文來說誰來晚餐，然後找一個講英文的家庭，然後找一個會英語的人來吃晚餐？" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "我們有很多異國婚姻的家庭，的確受訪者是講英文，有這樣的例子，但我們的確翻譯成中文。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "來的來賓是講英文？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "沒有來賓是講英文的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這個也是一個方向。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你就可以錄全英文，我剛才只是要講這個。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "其實我們也曾經有想敲國際人士，當時有一個天文學家的家庭，他太太點名一個美國的演員，其實是三線的，就是The Big Bang Theory其中一個演員，那個女的、一個物理學家，我還寫信給他的經紀公司，但事實上我們小國寡民，最後還是被pass，這是一種沮喪，我們的確曾經想要找一些咖，但就是小國寡民的悲哀，我不知道，就是這樣講。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果透過文化部找經濟部找中華電信找Netflix，這樣說不定會成功，可以當作Netflix的原創劇集。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "好啦！我知道啦！你懂我意思嗎？這就回到我們力量很小，我們這麼做，會不會覺得很可笑？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會，我覺得很棒。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你都用鼓勵的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對啊，專業鼓勵師。只要有一成的機率成功，我就會鼓勵。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "其實也沒有什麼成功率，其實找到email，只是用裡面的email去找，但還是沒有回信，我是說那一個女生。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過只指名一個嗎？不會給好幾個嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "只指名一個，但是給好萊塢的大明星，連想都不用想，" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "順便宣傳他的影片。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是這個就是說說罷了，要實踐起來是有距離。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "需要天時、地利、人和，這個是真的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們還是談一些比較能夠掌握的。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "所以覺得可以做什麼跟改進？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果是國際市場，最主要是要目標國家的網友要理解到你的存在，所以包含你們這個品牌本身必須要國際化，因為誰來晚餐在臺灣真的有人聽過，並不是沒有人聽過，而且也有一定的公信力。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "請問筱婷，你有聽過「誰來晚餐」嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "她是 Wendy（雅婷）。" }, { "speaker": "Wendy", "speech": "我有聽過，而且其實身邊很多人都有在看這個節目的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你在國際上說Guess Who，我想大家都是想到合唱團或者是別的東西，可能沒有Doctor Who那麼知名。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思是這個名牌本身可能也要想一下，包含你們是不是真的還要叫做Guess Who？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你覺得我們的名字取的有一點差？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "有一個程式語言，把自己的名字取成Go，剛開始就沒有人找得到他的網域，用Golang才找得到。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為叫Go的實在太多了，你要叫Go，在搜尋引擎上現在跑到第一名，這要經過一段很長的時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我的意思只是說，我如果找Guess Who話，目前第一頁都是某個樂團，因為有一個樂團的名字叫做Guess Who，「猜猜我是誰合唱團」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果這個是臺灣的原創劇集，我剛剛看了一下，像第5頁都還沒，所以如果要國際化，到第一個的話，就是要想。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "是不是要取一個沒有人知道的名字，第一個出來就是很多人想到的名字，比如Guess Who Taiwan？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像「Real People True Taiwan」，這個是你們的小標題？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "如果叫True People True Taiwan呢？你覺的哪一個比較好？就是改一個字而已，這個是比較次要的事，我現在隨便問你，想跟你請教一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得如果叫True Taiwan，我覺得這樣就很好，好像沒有人搶這個名字。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個主打是真實故事，是不是？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對，是真人實境show。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你覺得True People比Real People好是因為？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "因為有一個外國人覺得Real很難唸，那就是我們的翻譯。所以你覺得Real People True Taiwan可以，還是要改成True People True Taiwan？因為Real很難發音，True比較好發音，有這一種事嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我也不反對，但是我的意思是通常一個劇集，四個字真的太長了，大概都是兩個字。好比像House of Cards，其實of是虛字，只用兩個概念。Lost就一個字。" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "「冰與火之歌」滿長的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，可是它的active words就是冰、火，你講「Ice and Fire」，大家都知道你在講什麼。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "其實「True People True Taiwan」的主要字其實是「True Taiwan」，所以辨識度我覺得還是可以想一下。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "其實Guess Who也沒有人在用，直接叫True Taiwan？" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "直翻很像三立某一個名字。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "可能有一些節目已經用掉了。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得這個也是可以群眾參與的，就公開徵求「誰來晚餐」的名稱，提出最好的創意，之後就邀請他上節目。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們今年有用一個徵片活動。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "成功嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們1月要推出，還在做剪接的過程。我們的活動名稱是「破解U好這檔事」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很好。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你覺得我還有什麼可以合作的？還是有人可以幫我們宣傳一下？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "儘量使用我，我可以幫你們宣傳。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "真的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你人好好。你知道為什麼要破解「U好」？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "因為我們覺得不一定是只有在順從的這一個價值上，我們討論君君、臣臣、父父、子子的事，破解的意思是解構它，稍微有一點人權概念就會用尊重來重新定義孝順，我們訪問這麼多的名人也都會提到兩代之間尊重。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對啊！共好、U好、我好、你也好。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對，就是尊重。但是臺灣的人民很不小心就會變成順從，這一件事我一直抓不到，因為我們在徵片，大家好好重新思索，但是會不小心又變成老套。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "沒關係，你們有你們的公信力。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "「破解U好這檔事」，想要把這個事情做大，1月10日會推出第一波的廣告跟活動辦法，就是徵片，每一個人用180秒，把你心目中重新定義的孝順拿出來講一講。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們可以如何合作？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像「Fun大視野，想向未來」請我錄了一段關於社會創新的短片，我再傳給你。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是他們會要青年聽一些對社會公益有關係的，就是找社會創新的人來講事情。我們的社創中心有一個看板，就會放他們的宣傳東西。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "不好意思，我真的不知道這個機構。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個機構你一定知道，它叫做「慈濟慈善事業基金會」。他們找了很年輕的團隊Impact Hub來策展。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "喔，大愛。（笑）" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "跨世代創新大家都在想，有的執行還滿不錯的。我可以把幫他們錄的短片傳給你，我覺得至少拍個短片、登廣告的程度都很ok，我覺得這是很具體的。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "而且徵片這一件事，我大概是希望就算是傳播科系，來報名的大學生當作業，反正才180秒，所以我會長達到6月，明年的選期結束，老師當作隨堂作業。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "學期的製作。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "對，我大概是這麼想。我其實去年已經辦過一次徵片了，但是距離當時KPI，有點距離，" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "你剛剛是說150秒嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們這一次其實是3至5分鐘。3分鐘你要講完一個概念的短片，我覺得size是剛剛好，一則新聞是1分半，就可以說做的事。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "KPI是儘量多人參加的話，建議可以設15秒的主題。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你覺得15秒更好？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "15秒是現在大家最習慣的長度，保證會看完，不看完亦不可得，因為你轉開就需要15秒。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "孝順這一件事用15秒可以講？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很容易。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "就是一個概念而已？不會太短？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對，就像我剛剛講的，以前的孝順是為了U好，現在是要共好：我好、你也好。你看，不到15秒。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "好會講喔！好啊！滿好的，開一個組別15秒。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "保證破百，絕對超過100個人來。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "感謝。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "但是我覺得你們英文名字的徵件，真的也可以考慮，而且那個徵件可以用外國人的社群，像Formosa、Twitter，在Nextflix上看到誰來晚餐，到底是什麼樣的影集名稱，大家才會點下去之類的，看幫「誰來晚餐」取英文名字。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "謝謝你。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "然後前三名就是你的第一批死忠的支持者，就會幫你找在台美人或者是在美台人。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "謝謝批評指教，我知道耽誤你很多時間。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會，不會。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你真的很酷，我們是一般市民寫信跟你約一下，你真的會……一般市民可能不會？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "都會。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "測試一下。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們公務員，就是公共服務。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "很棒耶！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "服務業嘛，來者不拒。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "她是年輕人代表，鄭雯芳。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "為什麼是年輕人代表？" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "對啊，為什麼？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我那一天才跟同事……你知道這個數字嗎？請問每一天youtube上面會上傳多少video？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不知道。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "如果用1000萬來估會太誇張嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我不知道。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "自己做影片花那麼多的時間做，每一天可能是1/1000萬在地球上。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會，因為社群非常多。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "因為社群很大，很分眾，你看我們那一天做直播也看到人數，就是那1、200人，你會覺得很沮喪？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不會啊！" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "但是後來還行，你覺得還ok就對了？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "就算那個晚餐，現在目前是8000多人次，也不會覺得……" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "很好啊！" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你好會鼓勵人。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "人類在宇宙中，本來就是滄海之一粟。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不過我剛剛要講的是，Youtube不是算影片數量，而是每分鐘有人上載300小時的影片，是用長度來算。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "因為像直播，其實可能幾個小時才算一支影片，但15秒也是一支，所以不是很準。總之，每分鐘都有300小時上傳。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "此刻的地球上每分鐘都有300小時。你好強喔！這個你馬上google到？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "對。所以我覺得很好，這表示作為創作者的社群變多。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這就像在培根的時代只有幾個人可以做科學，現在每個人都可以做科學，是一樣的道理，是科學社群變大。這樣可以嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "（點頭）我問你這個問題以後，你google出來，你是用什麼關鍵字google？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "「youtube upload per day」。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "雯芳，你有又竑講的這種焦慮嗎？現在創作者非常多，只是其中一個？" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "自己不會，但是被老闆逼的時候會。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "老闆逼什麼？" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "會覺得到底要多少流量才滿意，上面的人好像永遠不滿意。" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "我自己覺得，如果自己做開心的事情，就像那一些youtuber網紅上傳影片，一開始也沒有在意多少。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "就是自己高興？" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "當然會想要跟更多人結合，可是就不會有永無止盡追求數字的感覺。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "完全同意！這個才是健康的心態。" }, { "speaker": "鄭雯芳", "speech": "我真的不知道上面的人要多少，因為永遠不夠多。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "當然我們做電視，花了這麼多的精力，會想要做一些有影響力的東西，就是有人看。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "有人看也許是虛榮心，我承認，但你辦了一個東西或者是什麼，總是希望有參與感。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "當然。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "另外一個問題是，對於議題上你會認為按照人口比例來分配議題是合理的嗎？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "聽不懂這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "像臺灣有10％是身心障礙，一整年的內容10%版面裡去關心身心障礙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是其他90％的人，也會關心身心障礙吧。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "OK，你是這個想法。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "不然，你拍燒賣的故事，難道是給流浪貓看嗎？" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "同樣的道理，10％是同志人口，可能一年10％就是做同志，10％是做身心障礙。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "可是這樣加起來就超過百分之百，因為同志也有些是身心障礙，也就是多元交織性，所以你怎麼挑，都可以挑得到很多10％，所以你一下子就可以列出70個10％，也就是拍700％的時間。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "所以你認為用這一種想法去找議題，你覺得滿好的？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得滿好的。但並不是10％的時間去拍10％的人口，因為這樣子永遠可以挑出超過十個10％的人口。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以重點可能不是分配多少時間，而是一直挑這種議題。也就是關注的人很多，但直接利益關係人可能又沒有那麼多的那個形狀，我覺得這個形狀是非常好的。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們做節目會有一個迷思，會思考到的問題，我在思考，也許有別的想法，臺灣總是會有一種焦慮，比如我就有，所謂平衡的焦慮，我今天拍了一堆藍的東西或者是綠的東西，就是要拍幾個藍的來balance。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "那個是以前版面有限，或者是特許頻道的時候。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "公共電視是什麼頻道？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "是公共頻道。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "我們要有這樣的焦慮嗎？我需要這樣子的人來自我說服自己，我的正當性或者是合法性？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得重要的，反而是在同一個製作裡面的內在平衡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "像我們現在做17項永續發展目標，我們不是說盡可能去做這17個議題的團隊每一個都來一隊，而是鼓勵每一個團隊做的時候，可以結合這17項越多項越好。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我覺得多元交織性是這樣看，並不是你做了一邊，然後去平衡另外一邊，大家都知道並不會有人按照這樣子看，到最後還是分別去轉傳，其實根本沒有差別。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "所以是同一集？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "同一個unit裡面，就可以呈現多方的觀點。像陳珊妮去的那一集，我覺得有一點做到這樣子的味道，好像不是宣教式的，而是把內在衝突都可以呈現出來，我覺得這樣就很好，她好像本身就是有平衡，並不是靠版面或描述平衡，我覺得靠版面或者是描述來平衡，現在並不是很work，因為你投入相等的精力做了兩集，你覺得互相平衡，但是一邊傳到500萬人、一邊只有5個人看，這樣到底算不算平衡？那只是有一點贖罪券的味道。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "的確是啦！" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "所以重點是內部平衡。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "是不是共呈？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "讓他們達到一些共同關心的事。我的意思是，只要設定到未來，對大家都沒有壞處，就算現在看起來針鋒相對，大概都會願意達到內在平衡。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "好像差不多了。不管是英文名字，或者是15秒的徵件或怎麼樣，反正企劃有的就給我，我能錄15秒給你就給你。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我會把「Fun大視野、想向未來」宣傳單張的圖，跟幫他們錄的影片都傳給你，如果你覺得那個格式ok就給我，我就幫你宣傳。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "你也可以幫我們再錄一點東西。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "錄東西的方式是我要來出機拍你，你可以自己錄給我？" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "自己就可以錄了。我們是自媒體。" }, { "speaker": "莊又竑", "speech": "謝謝。" } ]

[ { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "非常感謝各位朋友今天來參加開放政府第42次議題協作會議，今天要討論的議題是動物保護法加重罰則，很多朋友都非常關心這個議題。首先簡單自我介紹，我是唐鳳政務委員幕僚賴致翔，我代表唐鳳政委進行摘要說明，政委本人會在中午過來跟大家一起用餐，並且一起完成下午的討論。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天會議的形式除了與會在場各位一起來參與討論之外，我們也會在網路上公開直播，在座有任何一位朋友覺得直播對你來講有一些壓力的話，麻煩你舉手讓我們知道，也許鏡頭會試著避開你，如果沒有這個顧慮的話，我們就是按照正常的會議程序往前走。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "今天會議的紀錄形式，除了網路上的影像紀錄外，也會有專業的速錄師在現場把各位拿著麥克風所講的文字都記錄下來做成逐字稿。這個逐字稿會預定在十個工作天之後一併公開在網路上，這十個工作天的時間是讓大家所有與會者把自己的發言修得順一點，最主要的原因是，通常拿著麥克風講話，純口語可能不會想得太多，但是事後網友在網路上看到文字可能會不容易閱讀，所以我們會給大家十個工作天的時間，把自己發言的內容修得容易閱讀一點。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "這個逐字稿的系統是我們寫的，如果不小心修到別人發言的文字或內容，麻煩通知我們，我們會幫忙還原。十個工作天之後，我們就會把逐字稿公開，也方便所有關心這個議題的網友，或想要討論這個案子的任何人，都可以在網路上找到今天的會議討論了什麼，更可以接著今天會議討論的結果往深一層的方向進行。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "有關於會議的流程跟進行的部分，首先今天整個會議都會交由委外第三方專案顧問張小姐，由她協助大家一起釐清議題。釐清議題之後，下午我們會做一個分組討論，這個分組討論最後會請兩組各自推派代表幫這兩組討論的結果來作總結，總結的內容唐鳳政委會把內容原封不動地帶回去報告行政院長及其他政務長官。今天的會議雖然是討論跟諮詢的性質，在會場上不會有任何具體的裁示，但是在會後我們會讓它回到行政院的公部門做決策的機制裡面，由院長跟各部會相關同仁一起來討論今天會議的產出該採納哪一些部分。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "會議環境，外面有茶水，洗手間是門口出去往前走，有引導的標示。另外，有關於直播的部分，不知道在座的各位有沒有任何的意見？" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "如果沒有意見的話，就會把直播的連結公開放在網路上，我們就把麥克風交給張小姐。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "在會議開始之前先讓大家有自我介紹的時間，我再講今天的議程，今天讓大家自我介紹簡短就可以了，目的是讓大家討論交流的時候，彼此知道今天參與者有誰，想要問問題或者是交流的話，都會知道有哪一些人可以一起交流。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "等一下簡短自我介紹，只要幫忙說明您的姓名、匿稱、單位，以及您與這一次議題的關聯，讓大家可以彼此認識，接著麻煩同仁傳一下麥克風。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "大家好，我是朱增宏，臺灣動物社會研究會，動保團體，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "大家好，我是提案人蘇蘇。" }, { "speaker": "林道元", "speech": "大家好，我是提案人的老公陪她來。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "大家好，我是蕭立俊，我來自台中，職業是一名律師，之前是台中市世界聯合保護動物協會跟犬安居理事長。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "大家好，我是林逸萍，我之前選過大安文山區的市議員，為了動物出來參選，我之前也打過寵物的官司，我打到交付審判，我知道在判刑的時候十分困難，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "大家好，我是東吳法律系的老師，主要是提供大家憲法跟行政法上的諮詢，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "大家好，我是陳中興，我現在是農委會動物保護科的科長，也是動保法的主責科。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "大家好，我是服務於農委會動保科，我叫鄭祝菁，是這個案子的承辦人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會，一樣是動保科，我是陳宜鴻。" }, { "speaker": "王聞淨", "speech": "大家好，我是王聞淨，我服務於農委會的秘書室，秘書室是農委會負責開放政府業務的窗口。" }, { "speaker": "陳抄美", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會秘書室專委陳抄美。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "大家好，我是法務部林芝郁，是檢察官，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "羅柏", "speech": "大家好，我是法務部PO，叫我羅柏，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "大家好，我是柯懿庭，是台中動保處的稽查員，也就是第一線在執法衝鋒陷陣的人，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "大家好，我是臺灣防止虐待動物協會，周敬凡，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "大家好，我是吳宗憲，不過我不是主持人，我是在台南大學教公共政策的老師，我關心動物保護的政策，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "大家好，我是李建沛，我是台北市動保處動物收容組的組長。" }, { "speaker": "黃樁雄", "speech": "各位大家好，我是警政署行政組科長黃樁雄，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃韋華", "speech": "大家好，我是台北市刑警大隊小隊長黃韋華，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林盟峰", "speech": "大家好，我是刑事警察局研究員林盟峰，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "周文文", "speech": "大家好，我是刑事警察局周文文，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃繹道", "speech": "大家好，我是台北市政府警察局行政科股長黃繹道，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "洪嘉臨", "speech": "大家好，我是警政署警務正洪嘉臨，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "簡秀芳", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會輔導處簡秀芳，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "侯惠茹", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會科技處侯惠茹，我是科技處的PO，今天是來列席觀摩的。" }, { "speaker": "羅文俊", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會水保局PO，羅文俊，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳威克", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會水試所陳威克，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "黃文美", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會林試所PO，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳明慧", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會農試所陳明慧，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王斌永", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會畜試所王斌永，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "蔡韙任", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會藥物毒物實驗所蔡韙任，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "曾經洲", "speech": "大家好，我是藥毒所曾經洲，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "王怡平", "speech": "大家好，我是林務局王怡平，我也是林務局PO，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "翁家駿", "speech": "大家好，林務局保育組翁家駿，我負責野生動物保育業務，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "施欽隆", "speech": "大家好，我是特生中心，單位在南投縣集集，我是動物組組長鄭錫奇，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "繆自昌", "speech": "大家好，這邊是農委會漁業署繆自昌，來這邊觀摩學習。" }, { "speaker": "邱文毓", "speech": "大家好，我是漁業署邱文毓，也是來觀摩學習，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "余俊賢", "speech": "大家好，我是漁業署余俊賢，我們今天是來觀摩學習的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張惟翔", "speech": "大家好，漁業署張惟翔。" }, { "speaker": "蔡依寧", "speech": "大家好，我是工業院，目前從事動保的政策研究，我是蔡依寧，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林益樑", "speech": "大家好，我也是產科國際所林益樑，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張曾靖琦", "speech": "大家好，我是農金局PO張曾靖琦，來觀摩的，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "詹孟芬", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會企劃處詹孟芬。" }, { "speaker": "張書唐", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會農田水利處張書唐，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "陳瑞平", "speech": "大家好，我是家畜衛生試驗所陳瑞平，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝大家的自我介紹。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我跟各位說明一下，因為開放政府聯絡人的制度，農委會有深耕到各個單位去，所以後面三桌是PO開放政府聯絡人的觀摩，所以實際上會議還是以前面四桌大家的交流討論為準。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著跟各位說明一下今天會議的議程，我們剛剛完成了開場跟來賓的自介，接下來會用10分鐘的時間跟各位說明一下工作會議的流程、工具及目的。說明一下為何議程要這樣子設計，因為一開始先讓各位知道一下今天的會議流程是怎麼樣走，接下來會安排提案人的簡報並口頭跟我們說明一下這一個案子的想法，接著會讓主責部會有簡報的時間。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "在這一個橋段的設計是讓大家有多元資訊的對齊，在我們資訊都平衡的狀況下，可以接著接下來的討論，所以接下來的設計是讓所有的與會者都可以去針對之前提出來的這一些事實或者是有哪一些事不清楚、希望可以對焦、釐清的部分，都可以在這一個時間裡面互相討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著會進入用餐的時間，早上的討論主要是針對事實的釐清，其實還沒有進入到更深入解決方案的探討，所以我們下午會用分組的方式分成兩組，如果是同樣單位的人，我們都會拆開成兩組，可以確保兩組有多元的人討論，下午會聚焦在實際討論的方案，所以會更進一步推進下一步如何做。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "分組討論完畢之後我們就會有每一組10分鐘的時間，讓兩組都了解一下對方那一組討論了什麼樣的方案、下一步可以怎麼走，去進行大家想要參與討論的議題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著說明一下今天的程序，我稱為協作會議是大家可以一起來協作，產出解決問題的共識。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們蒐集意見的方式是，如果今天有一百個同樣的意見，我們都會當作一個意見，但是如果有兩個不同的意見就是兩個不同的意見，這樣的方式可以幫助我們在今天有這麼多人的會議裡面，我們可以快速分類，歸納出一些重要的意見，並不是去看那個意見的聲量有多大，我們重視的是大家在場意見意見的多元性，以這樣的方式來做現場的紀錄。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "各位的發言都會即時在現場的投影上幫大家投影紀錄，方便大家釐清剛剛同仁講了什麼，我們也會做現場的分類，讓大家理解有哪一些議題的脈絡，各貢獻了什麼樣的意見。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天主要三件事，是剛剛有提到的，我們早上的時間是釐清事實、問題盤點、確認一些事實，接著會把這一些大家提出來的意見，現場直接做歸納，歸納完畢之後就會在下午討論可能的方案，所有的紀錄都會有影像、文字及現場數位白板的紀錄都公開在網路上，讓大家可以現場直接看或者是後續想要回顧都會有資料可以追溯，今天大家的交流是可以說自己的意見，也可以聆聽別人的意見，大家可以帶著不同的想法前來跟帶著不同的共識回去。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天來參加的同仁都有自我介紹過，邀請利害關係人來參與會議的時候，會希望有不同的背景、用不同的角度來討論這個議題，並不是限縮侷限在特定的框架下。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們希望讓大家在今天的場域討論時，不是把意見放在最後，也不是有一個政策，然後我們希望來這個地方讓大家去討論後續怎麼做，而是讓大家討論議題，釐清問題內容並找到解法，因此我們認為各位的使用者或者是公民，把大家放到政策規劃的最前面，去了解大家的意見，然後再跟著制定相對應的服務，相對應的系統、政策法規等等，而不是按照傳統的方式，而是政策、相關的法規都制定好再諮詢大家的意見。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "以這樣的脈絡，什麼是公民、什麼是協作，我們希望大家所看到的公民，是大家可以一起創造大家認為適合的政策，但是可以互相去協助彼此，這就是我們認為的協作，而不是把公民當成消費者，所以這個是今天跟大家提到的協作會議精神。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "分享一個過去的問題，之前有一個提案是有關於全國漸近式禁止使用免洗餐具，這個本身的命題是一個解法，我們那時就去回推這個議題當中有哪一些議題是大家所在意的，當時就回推了三個重點，第一個部分是民眾沒有自覺與養成自備餐具的習慣，一個是免洗餐具取得容易且免費，第三個是免洗餐具造成垃圾增量、替代方案不足，有一些是治本、有一些是治標的方式，其實每一個想法去貼的話，每一個都是不同的解法，每一個都是呼應串聯跟想到未來更好的方向，我們也可以討論全國漸近式禁止使用免洗餐具是否可以解決這一個問題，但是並不是所有提到這一些問題都可以用這樣的解法來解，因此我們會希望回歸到問題本身去討論解法，這樣是更有效的處理方式，因為我們不一定想到一個解法就可以解決那個問題，但是如果可以把問題定義清楚再來想解法的時候，就可以確定接下來的做法怎麼樣做是更有效率的。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "今天讓大家可以坐在這邊一起討論，就會希望每一個人知道的問題都不同，為什麼我們還要再討論，就是因為大家所知道的問題不同，我們希望有一個場域跟時間，讓大家可以在這邊互相聆聽每一個角度的人所看到的問題有哪一些，我們互相理解並對焦之後再來想解法，不會落入某一個問題再來解問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們今天已經有共識是要解決動保的問題，然再來做盤點、歸納、定義問題做歸納發展，我們在做開放政府月會的時候，就有針對這一個議題希望做討論，然後也有投票通過，今天才會坐在這邊讓大家討論這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "大家看到箭頭往上是指發散的過程，箭頭往下收斂，大家資訊平衡之後，先讓發散看在簡報的過程中沒有被提到的問題，是希望大家再提出的，我們之後會收斂並歸納問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接著可以確認真正的問題有哪一些，我們會把它盤點清楚之後再進入到下一個階段的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這個是目前依據之前針對這一個議題的資料蒐集，已經有先針對今天的議題有初步歸納出兩個問題，但是等一下大家在討論的時候，有可能會改變或者是增加等等，這個部分我們都會依照現場大家討論的狀況再調整，這個是依照現有資料所整理出來兩個會討論的問題。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "我們早上的時候會先讓大家確認問題、定義這個問題是不是有問題，這個是先讓大家討論的主題，接下來先讓大家修正完畢的議題變成是下午討論，可以去想出下一步的解法可以如何解這一個問題，用這樣的問題來開始下午的討論。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "下午討論會解說實際的方式，但是基本上會讓大家把問題釐清，然後想出對應的解法，以及這個解法有無可能的風險，我們可以怎麼樣克服、這個解法要往下一步走的話，有哪一些單位的同仁會希望一起協助。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "這個是初步政策藍圖來做下一步的政策研議，這個是下午分組討論的情形是這樣子（如圖）。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來邀請提案人簡報或者是口頭說明我們今天討論的這個案子。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "對不起，在提案人口頭說明之前，針對會議討論方式，我這邊補一個工具，因為今天有網路直播，所以各位如果需要這個直播連結，或者麥克風在別人手上，但有很多意見想要表達，可以拿出手機、上網平板或者是筆記型電腦，搜尋sli.do，透過這個系統來打字發言。" }, { "speaker": "賴致翔", "speech": "進去首頁會請使用者登入今天的會議室代碼，這個是1227，也就是今天的日期，透過這樣的方式，即使麥克風不在您的手上，或者是其他的網友在觀看直播的時候，都會把意見送進來，我們也會在適當的時候在議程時，針對網路上的意見或者是現場用手機送進來的意見作處理，以上，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "接下來歡迎提案人。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "大家好，我是這一次的提案人蘇筠婷，這一次主要會提這個提案是因為牠（如圖），先讓大家看一下始作俑者。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "其實每隔一陣子就是比較大型的動保案件出現，如果那隻貓（動物）跟你沒有關係的話，大家都只想要加一，如果不是因為牠是我的貓的話，老實說我也會懶得提案，牠是延吉街連續潑貓案的其中一隻，目前有確認受害的貓咪是21隻，當然一定還有更多的黑數沒有被發現，如果真的死掉或怎麼樣，可能早上就被清掉了。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "這21隻裡面有1、2隻是有主人的，剛好我是牠的主人，所以可以幫牠出聲，但是如果是其他的貓呢？很多動保案件成立是因為有主人，有人可以幫牠們講話，但是其實有更多的案件是流浪貓咪（動物），死掉就死掉了，沒有人知道，這個事情是我們特別想要提出來討論，也就是沒有主人的貓咪（動物），要怎麼辦？" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "因為有先看一下之前發的手冊，有說動保法這二十年來修了13次，修到非常刁鑽，後面也有講到人力不夠的問題。其實如果真的遇到了，要我們自己蒐證、要我們自己提吿，其實都沒有關係，只是很多時候是罰不到，像明天其實是大橘子三週年，你就會覺得我們大家講到罰則，罰則已經要比人的傷害罪還要高，罰20萬，但是重點就是罰不到，對我們一般大眾來說無法理解的是為何會罰不到。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "這就是那次虐貓的新聞，我們有看到很多虐貓（虐待動物）的新聞，政府單位跟我們民間溝通有很大的斷層，其實最近我有看到一個（貼文）是壽山（收容所）黑狗死掉了，網路上是愛媽跟高雄市動保處的人（對死因）各說各話，就是在網路上很多時候是看誰（音量大）最後反而變成有一點像行銷或者是討拍，看不出什麼結論，也不知道為何那一隻狗死掉，就是一隻狗死在那邊，就一邊說這個單位虐狗，然後另一邊回應沒有。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "我們會覺得公家機關跟民間之間的有一個很大的代溝，最後這個（回到延吉虐貓案）變成是民間團體自己懸賞，然後很多東西都我們自己去看，最後也是靠一個私人監視器，這個案件還有一個重點是公園監視器很不夠，之後也是可以討論的。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "我本來也想要多找一些其他的照片，但是我覺得太血腥了，而且很多時候，動保團體們出來，然後就會貼超多血淋淋的照片，就是想要讓（逼）大家看，但這樣有時候會把一般人推走，根本不敢看內容就直接把網頁關掉，我就覺得應該要找一個方法，讓本來對動物還好、沒什麼感覺的人（接觸相關的議題），但是至少先讓他們喜歡，才有辦法繼續接下來的討論。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "我稍微找了一下新聞，光台北市的話，這兩個部分就有一點牴觸，數學的部分好像不太對，每一天有40件，重點是非常非常多。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "這個案件提案了三天內就達標，我只是自己遇到這一件事，然後看到網路上很多人留言你們就是去提案或幹麻，我就提了，（出發點）真的很小，但是短時間之內很多人連署，就表示這個議題是滿多人重視的。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "這邊有比較多人同意的意見（如PPT），手冊裡面也有寫到，比如希望有刑罰或者是行政罰，重點是罰不到，所以不管是什麼罰，如果罰得到就是好的罰，因為我們也希望可以有一些心理治理跟列管，不知道為什麼列管會有困難，因為當兵都可以定時回報了，所以如果這一些人是有風險族群的話，如果列管的話是有機會的。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "最後，一般市民及清潔隊，他們對於這一件事的警覺性不夠高，我們家附近之前有貓的屍體，但是早上（清潔隊）很直接的就把它清掉，（手冊）裡面有提到犯罪的鐵三角，要有屍體、現場及嫌犯，很多時候一開始屍體都不見了，這個是流浪貓狗辦案困難的地方。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "這一隻貓近況吃得很飽、睡得很暖，還有室友（如圖）。也是我在撿到的貓（如圖）。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "這就連到另外一個問題是寵物登記，我們太容易得到寵物了，我們要領養都很容易得到，導致大家很容易會把貓狗隨意丟棄，丟棄會有新的問題，他們不是原生動物，而是外來種，很多團體會說他們跟野生動物是有衝突的，因此就會陷入很多動保之間的糾葛。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "但是這要回到一開始，就是大家對於動物的看法，因為在法律上或很多人思想裡面寵物是物品，之前TNR協會有一個志工虐狗的案件，那一隻狗最後受傷好了，也不能罰他，最後是那個人是用掃把打，掃把斷了，所以可以告他毀損掃把，這個是非常荒謬的事，竟然是因為掃把，而不是因為狗。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "各地都有人幫我們連署，所以我們是覺得應該有機會可以教導我們大家尊重生命的話，我們可以成為一個更好的國家，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝提案人的說明及簡報，接下來歡迎農委會的同仁。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "大家好，以下由農委會來為大家說明針對這一次動物保護法加重罰則的說明。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "這個案子誠如剛剛提案人所說明的，在很快的時間就達到提案的門檻，也列入今天的議案。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "我們提案的訴求是，現在的動保法對於虐待動物的罰則太輕，必須要複數的動物死亡、肢體殘缺、器官要喪失，才能公布姓名、照片或違法的事實，希望能夠加重對於虐待流浪動物的罰則，也希望全面公布姓名及照片，並對加害人強制進行心理治療，同時也要負擔動物的醫療費用。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "依照動物保護法的現行規定，剛才提案人也有說過，事實上動保法從民國87年到現在已經進行了十幾次的修正，實際上對於動物的故意或過失造成的傷害，已經分成四種不同的罰則。最嚴重的一個罰則是如果今天是使用藥物、槍械，而造成動物複數死亡的話，會有一至五年的徒刑，同時也必須要併科50萬以上、500萬以下的罰金。另外，針對加害人的部分，主管機關可以公布姓名、照片及違法的事實。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "第二，如果今天是宰殺或是故意造成動物傷害，而使其肢體嚴重殘障，或喪失重要器官的話，同樣也是有刑罰的，是兩年以下有期徒刑，必須併科20萬以上、200萬以下罰金。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "第三，故意造成動物的傷害，但沒有造成嚴重的死亡或者是死亡；另外一個是過失，但是造成動物嚴重地死傷，甚至死亡，這部分處於1萬5，000元以上罰金、7萬5，000元以下罰鍰。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "第四，故意騷擾動物，雖然沒有造成動物有一個受傷或者是生理的狀況，或者故意過失沒有造成動物的死亡，這部分會處新臺幣3，000元以上、1萬5000元以下的罰金。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "針對今天整個釐清問題面向來說明，動保法的罰則真的太輕嗎？我們比照現在動物保護法、刑法、兒少法及老人福利法，不管是在刑法或者是併科罰鍰的部分，並沒有比較輕。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "另外，是不是因為現在的罰則太輕，所以造成虐待流浪動物的事情常常發生，我們從105年到現在，每一年檢舉申訴的案件都超過1，000件，跟我們前面所說的四個層次合計處分的比例大概是從3.5％至3.81％，所以事實上處罰的部分並沒有像所想像的因為罰則太輕，所以發生這麼多。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "另外，也必須跟大家說明一下，依照今年5月份的調查結果，我們全臺灣的動保護員有153位，平均每一個人每一年要處理的動保申訴案件是超過1，100件，換算每一個動保員處理每一個案件，大概每個可以分配到調查時間是1.64個小時。當然我們也承認、認同現在動保案件的調查是存在一個人力結構性的問題，當然也會影響一些案件調查跟處理的有效性。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "藉由這個圖跟大家說明一下我們現在跟動保人員的分布，基本上一半的人員都是分布在六都，不到一半的人員分布在六都以外的其他縣市，由這個比例可以讓大家更清楚看到目前動保人員分布的比例。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "此外，也必須跟大家說明一下，依照今年5月份調查結果，因為動保人員第一線的壓力都很大，也造成他的流動，所以事實上我們現在50％以上的動保人員年資都在三年以內。針對整個流浪犬貓議題分析，事實上我們在去年2月份開始，整個動物保護法規定開始零收容撲殺之後，我們也的確發現到整個捕犬的模式開始做了改變，各縣市捕犬的數目也開始降低。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "進入整個流浪動物中心的分布，也變得不一樣，尤其在105年之前，大概超過60％進入動物收容所市政府去主動捕捉，到了107年之後，我們很明顯地看到政府捕捉的比例下降到50％。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "我們也看到從今年5月份到10月份，整體而言，我們整個動物收容所人道處理的數量已經接近幾乎是0了。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "另外，流浪動物在去年動保法執行零撲殺之後，我們可以看到公立收容所的收容數量已經達到飽和，很多團體跟專家都警示我們說是不是會造成整體流浪動物所內死亡的比例提高，農委會持續跟地方政府合作，提高整體流浪動物收容所的軟體跟硬體，我們也看到去年事實上從去年到現在死亡率並沒有很明顯地增加。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "必須跟各位說明一下，進到收容所之後，大概75％的收容犬隻會在兩個月之內離開這個收容所，但是還是有20％的犬隻會停留超過90天，停留越久有可能會永遠住在這一個收容所裡面。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "我們看到了一個現象，從今年開始跟去年做比較，的確我們的流浪動物收容的推廣，讓認領養的數量是在減少的，我們也必須去發展更多元的認領養跟推廣的方式。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "執行零撲殺之後，面臨到一個很重要的問題，當整個收容能量達到飽和之後，如何用其他的措施來積極減少外部犬隻族群的控制，我們很明顯看到106年的捕捉量是減少的，107年之後，我們的認養率是下降的，因此在這兩個不平衡的進出情況之下，我們也必須要再去想一些更積極、多元的有效控制方式。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "在整體外部犬貓控制議題的話，縣市政府會積極執行整個犬隻管理的業務，也要儘量針對捕捉得到犬貓來做積極加強節育，對於飼養犬隻的部分也要落實節育的義務。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "此外，也必須要針對人犬比較衝突熱點的部分要真正加強精準地捕捉，減少流浪犬貓造成人跟動物間的衝突。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "此外，我們最近這幾年也是積極提升我們公立收容所的品質，不管是軟體跟硬體，希望在未來能夠扭轉整體動物收容所，在社會的刻版印象，能夠朝向宣導教育，能夠做運轉及觀光休閒的改變。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "此外，以往對於比較大量飼養貓狗的場所，也會建立一套分級輔導的模式，希望未來在整個民間飼養場所的部分，整體的環境跟動物的福利都可以改善。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "我們比較了六個國家地區對於虐待動物罰則來說的話，目前看起來臺灣中華民國罰則，不管是在刑法或者是併科罰金的部分，相對是最重的。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "在農委會的立場也跟與會大家說明，事實上動保法的修法已經歷經十幾次的修法，如果在修法的過程中，真正能夠提高動物福利的話，我們這個地方是支持修法的，但是我們更認為應該要落實整個修法之後實際執行面的部分，能夠讓法令確實執行。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "我們所提出的建議方案是：我們希望能夠健全整體基層動物保護人員的專業跟執能，讓整個公權力能夠被有效伸張，讓民眾能夠有感、知道違法的部分一定會被處罰。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "今年動保法修法，也已經把整個動物生命教育的部分納入十二年的課綱，也希望跟教育部合作、社會各界合作，希望把整體生命教育的內容能夠擴及到我們的教育層面裡面去。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "此外，我們也希望能夠有一些動物保護、動物福利先進國家發展的成功經驗，推動公私協力，讓更多人或NGO能夠注意這個議題，只有更多人注意這個議題、關心動物時，才能夠讓這些違法的人能夠無所遁形、能夠有效被舉發，事證保全下來，能夠讓真正犯錯的人負到該犯錯的責任。" }, { "speaker": "陳中興", "speech": "另外，農委會也希望在動物保護的方向，可以推到一村里一志工，希望能夠整合機關及民眾，甚至民間的業者可以有夥伴的關係，真正讓動保的觀念落實到一般民眾的生活，讓動保變成生活的習慣，以上說明，謝謝大家。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝農委會的說明，接下來進入下一個議程，也就是釐清事實的部分，會用數位白板的方式把之前已經有提到過的資料有先整理上去，等一下如果有簡報中希望釐清的事，或者是有新意見希望提出的話，我們都會同步直接紀錄在上面，讓大家確認，接下來的時間交給雨蒼。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家好，我是PDIS的雨蒼，接下來幫大家稍微釐清一下今天要討論的議題，從農委會的簡報及提案人這邊都可以看得到，大家都有一個共同的目標，我們希望動保法動物保護的精神可以落實並被實踐。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "在這個地方事前做各種訪談、研究時，其實我們發現了幾個比較重要的問題，第一個是提案人的提案，其實最重要是希望流浪動物避免遭到虐待，因此有事前、事中及事後的相關東西，包含事前是對動物福利的認知、無法有效嚇阻犯罪，事中包含動保人力不足，以及事後流浪動物蒐證不易，以及如何防止再犯罪及醫療費用如何處理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "更大的問題其實是流浪動物管理的問題，包含了前面民間收容所的問題、收容所空間不足，尤其是零撲殺政策之後，收容所空間不足的問題，收容所的規劃受限，像台南也遇到一些抗爭，醫療資源缺乏及認養誘因不足等等的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這目前是我們整理出來的框架，等一下大家的討論我們會儘量收攏跟記錄下來。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有一個補充說明，請大家發言的時候，幫我注意一下，因為今天位置表的關係，可能請大家發言的時候，說明一下你是誰再說您想說的話，這樣就可以了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不曉得大家對於剛才提案人的簡報、農委會的簡報，有沒有覺得哪一些聽不懂或者是有問題，想要希望可以再補充的？" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "大家好，我是林逸萍，我坐在第一桌，我有動物官司、沒有辦法被判刑的那一個，剛剛有講到四個面向，「使用藥物、槍械，致複數動物死亡」那一頁那邊，據我所知，那時在修法的時候，送進去的法案，「槍械，致複數動物死亡」如果是用逗點的話，變成是用藥物跟槍械，而導致複數動物死亡，我才可以判刑。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "如果我是用掐死的方式呢？因為大橘子是被掐死的，我是用潑硫酸或其他的方式呢？不是用藥物跟槍械，而且一定要導致到複數動物死亡，這個法才能夠適用，這在法律上的解釋。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "但事實上在修法的時候，送進去並不是這樣，因此在立法院當中不知道哪一個環節跑掉了，就把一個頓號改成逗點，這個法變成非常難用，因為原本是使用藥物、槍械，以及如果不管是用什麼方式，讓複數動物死亡，這個方法就可以用了。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "你想想看一般民眾會有槍械嗎？這根本很難嘛！藥物還要判定是什麼藥物，因此我們在法部分的制定，這部分事實上是不清楚的，如果這個地方要修，這個地方是要修掉的。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "後面的部分是我自己在打官司時的認知，以法條來看，必須是動物要受傷才可以開罰、判刑。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "對不起，這邊有司法界的人員在，對不對？我知道一般民眾不會了解動物是物品，都會認為動物是家人，這個是情感上的認知，但是在法界的認知動物是物品，當我在做法律諮詢的時候，可以很明白跟大家講我得到的回應通常他們是物品，人的官司在臺灣已經打成這樣，要他們認真對待那個物品做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "我被當面告知告刑法，因為告只能告毀損罪，告刑法就是為了以刑逼民，我說要一個賠償做什麼，講明白我的律師費是7萬元，我的狗在賠償時，律師甚至告訴我說按照物品的條件，我的狗有3歲，還要算折舊率，無法想像折舊，這個是法的條件方式來說。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "所以律師告訴我說你要想清楚，在告的時候，律師費可能是6至7萬，更好的律師可能更貴，像是我的狗是混血狗，是吉娃娃，市面價值是2萬到2萬5，如果3歲，算折舊率可能得不到幾千元的賠償，如果你的狗沒有辦法證明血統是純種的話，是mix，很抱歉，市面價值就是0，這個是在賠償的部分，也因為這樣的觀念，在司法界其實根深蒂固，所以在動保法上，他們也認為這不是一個……對不起，我這樣講不是很恰當，他們在看待物件的時候，這個物件被排到比較後端，所以動物案件沒有辦法受到很大的重視就是這樣，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有兩個問題，第一個是關於逗號跟頓號間的問題，也就是修法用詞的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外，有關於動物在法律上的地位是什麼，是從屬於人的物品或者是協作會議中有老師建議可以當成是小朋友的情形，如果當他受到傷害，政府可以幫他來主張公道。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我不知道這邊有沒有法律的老師願意幫忙說明一下，或者是法務部的朋友願意幫忙說明一下這個地方的問題？" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "有關所謂動物要當作在哪一個層面的話，其實不單純只是一個刑法體系的問題，而是整個法律體系上來作討論。當然在德國法上，於民法其實有作一個特別的規定，如果是動物的話，可能有一個與一般物不一樣的保護地位在。但其實現在比較大的問題是，當然在愛護動物的人心中是這樣的想法，但這是不是一個社會的共識，可能要再討論。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "除了剛剛講到的，有關於動物要放在哪一個法律體系保護的地位外，哪一些動物要放進來另外做一個保護體例？為何貓狗是、牛及豬跟經濟動物不是，這個會需要更大的討論。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "謝謝。剛剛有一個逗號跟頓號的問題，我覺得這個問題更詳細一點講的是，如果今天是連續掐死的話，這樣有沒有哪一個法條是可以適用來作開罰的？這個問題有沒有人可以幫忙回答？像農委會或者是熟悉動保法的朋友？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "第25條可以適用，而且還是有刑則的。針對你剛剛提到的那樣狀況，是動保法第25條可以處以兩年以下有期徒刑，或者是拘役併科新臺幣20萬以上、200萬以下罰金，這一條是可適用的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "理解。我們稍微唸一下法條，是在PPT第7頁，動物傷害程度是宰殺、故意傷害使動物遭受傷害致動物肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官功能喪失的話，可以處兩年以下有期徒刑，或拘役併科新臺幣20萬以上、200萬以下的罰金，所以這個法條是可以使用的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "除了法律的問題以外，您是不是有想要（補充）？" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "我剛好跟法律有一點關係，所以我補充一下，德國民法有一個條文是動物非物，但實際上真的在討論或者是在適用的過程中，其實動物還是難免有些部分是適用在財產法的部分，只不過是在法律位階上特別強調人、動物及其他的物品，他們為了要貫徹這樣的想法，他們就在可能會牽涉到動物的法律來做進一步的規範，來考慮動物的狀況及動物、人間的連結。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "我記得有看過強制執行法裡面有考慮到動物是不是可以當作財產沒入，只是因為欠錢的關係等等，而不是只規定在動保法裡面。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "剛剛檢察官也有提到在整個法的體系下如何看待動物，然後動物跟物不同，是不是有一個共識存在，像最後德國也推動了憲法上的修改，把保護動物在憲法當中當作是國家的目標與政策來做。我們是不是也要這樣做，這是大家必須要討論的。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "如果真的要考慮在法律體系上把動物當作非物品來看的話，站在動保人跟法律人的交界來講，我覺得確實是必須要深思的問題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "謝謝。法律的問題以外，目前其實大家最在意另外一個問題是有關於落實的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "大家看到動保法第25條，是「致動物肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官嚴重喪失」，之前在彰化是被拖行的狗拖到體無完膚，後來的狀況牠是恢復了，恢復了之後請問這個法條適用嗎？牠恢復健康了。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個好像比較偏法律解釋的問題了。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "我比較不清楚為什麼這樣子，我們的傷害罪也是有可能傷害了以後，經過治療以後就好了，並不是傷害以後那個傷就一直存在。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "其實在判的時候，我們實際上接觸過很多動物案件，他們說結論就是要致到有肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官喪失，必須到達這樣子地步時，這個法的條件才可以成立，那個是我們那時得到的法律上解釋。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以問題「致動物遭受傷害，致動物……」，是不是導致解讀成and而不是or，是不是這個意思？" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "這個跟逗點不同，那個是第25之1條。我們這邊得到那時的回應是，如果這一條要成立的時候，因為法條的解釋，你知道在法律界，我有聽過各種解釋方法，這邊得到的回應是必須要得到真正受傷，後面可能真的是殘缺，可能不能走路了，或者是真的是死亡，你才能判他這個刑，如果他恢復健康的時候，我們得到那時的回應，因為彰化案子就是確實存在，就是判刑不了。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "是第30條行政罰的範圍。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "所以是不是變成第30條？這一條是不是變成不能適用？" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "不是不能適用，而是本來在法律設計體系上就會有層次的區別，怎麼樣的情況下是放在行政罰的方式來處理、怎麼樣的情況下是放在刑罰處理，我必須明確地說，並不是所有的東西都放在刑罰當中處理會有好的結果，必須要判決確定才能執行，要達到嚴格證明罰則，合法取得證據之下堆砌法官的心證，這部分不是我們可以控制的。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "因為這一次延吉街一樣，最後要不要截肢的時候，譬如說就截肢，才不會恢復，才可以適用這一條。但是最後因為救回來，硬是救回來，是用不截肢的方式，就像剛剛那些貓都不符合，雖然都已經見骨、皮已經翻開，但是他們最後都好了，所以這個部分就很奇怪，因為把他救回來，沒有罰更多。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "我們可以看到第30條嗎？即使沒有到達肢體嚴重殘缺，像法條在唸的時候，我們的頭都很暈；法界是不是可以幫我們解釋一下？即使都沒有受傷，只有意圖傷害動物，而動物有受傷，又恢復了，這一條是可以適用的嗎？我們可以確認這一點嗎？司法界可以知道原來前面都是都市鄉野傳說，即便沒有受傷、嚴重殘缺的時候，我們還是可以判刑，雖然程度是比較小，因為恢復了，所以用第30條來罰牠。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我稍微說明一下今天的會議並沒有邀請到司法院的人過來，法官也是獨立審判，所以我們可能其實沒有辦法想到確切的案件，但是如果法律的解釋，大家可以說清楚，然後讓更多人理解，應該還是有一些幫助。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "對不起，我畢竟是東吳法律系的老師，我講一下好了，我覺得應該要講在立法過程中，權力跟權力衝突的那一剎那，就會開始階梯式的，立法者會制定各種衡量的標準，但是現在的想法裡面，不要讓權力往某一個方向傾斜，我們這麼說好了，加重罰則的結果，最好的方式是為了避免虐待動物，像虐待動物者死這樣是最快的，這樣就不會虐待動物。但是情形並不是導致虐待動物，所以在法益衡量的時候，我們會思考怎麼樣的階梯狀是合乎狀況的思考。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "像第25條的規定，什麼時候才會用到刑法這個是要討論的，一個國家對於動物保護跟動物的尊重到什麼樣的程度，你看德國法的規定，只有規定一個條文，而且三年以下然後就沒了，不會在德國法說因此不夠保護動物，因此我覺得措施上並不是加重罰則而作為主要的方向。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我不得不承認，農委會剛剛所講的方式，恐怕是所有動物保護人士應該要努力去合作的，我如何讓你的手段，現行規定目前的方式，我覺得夠用了，是如何讓它能夠落實這一件事，我覺得公私協力是很重要的，動物保護團體或者動物人士裡面，我覺得一個動作很重要，這個是法律人才會的，這是舉證責任，農委會應該把中心放在訓練動物友好的人來訓練你舉證，因為一個動保的檢查員要負責一千多個案子，我沒有辦法舉證，檢察官在也知道，檢察官有時為何會不起訴處分，不是他不知道有問題，而是沒有那麼鉅細靡遺去舉證，不是我不願意，而是你告訴我這個案子，我就給你，而是每個月就有幾十個案子、幾百個案子，我怎麼可能去舉證？" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "所以比較好的訓練是，在公私協力裡面去思考教你如何舉證，包括我們現在檢舉獎金辦法等等，我們可以做一種模式，可以告訴你哪一些證據要舉，也就是符合構成要件該當的證據，這個要舉證，這個是很重要的。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "你今天看到第25條，你不用想太多，就是該當動物保護法第25條的規定，我要附哪一些照片。照片的角度是否重要？要舉證或保存下來的這一件事就變得很重要，不管是檢察官們或者是農委會這邊，就必須要花更大的力氣去教你怎麼做，而不是加重多少刑罰，因為這個意義不大。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我覺得提案人講得很好，最後選擇加重罰則是怪怪的，但是抓不到，但是事實上不是，我抓到了也沒有用，因為抓不到真正構成要件該當的證據，也許那個訓練是訓練你們如何知道所有的法律事實是針對構成要件該當的事實再來舉證，其實不用舉證了。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "現在教你們如何構成該當，難聽一點是帶著動物保護法去，對著每一個罰則去舉證，然後在哪一個角度拍到什麼程度的照片。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我們剛剛在選擇第25條或者是選擇第25條之1的思考，我覺得第25條都很重，重點是要能夠該當，我不知道大家是不是能夠懂這個邏輯。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "像第30條也很重，第30條對於一般人、一個動物，當一般人的利益，因為我們在座的朋友，像現在在看直播的朋友，事實上對於動物保護比較關心的，所以我們在利益衡量上是有酌情的，這個酌情是一般人沒有代表在這邊，為什麼？因為不會立刻感覺到權力被限制，我不知道大家是不是懂這個邏輯，我做這個行為立刻就被影響，不會在這個現場，對動物保護比較關心的人在現場。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我想要講的是這個議題是政治正確的方向，當德國把它放到國家保護目的，憲法的要求其實是我們可以做的，也就是未來修憲的時候，我們應該增加的方向，讓整個國家往這個方向走，包含所有人民往這個方向走，我們可以給農委會比較大的奧援，因為他覺得來做這一件事是合理的，而不是有太多的扞格，大家覺得這個是國家要努力的方向，就有比較多的事。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "其實公私合作的想法應該是要落實的問題，如果這個問題解決了，就不用討論到現在這個問題，因此行政措施勝過立法如何修法。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "因為我必須承認第25條－1如果是那樣的話，那是危險的，因為連法律明確性都會產生問題，會被認為違反比例原則的可能性都有，因此我覺得盡可能不要往違憲的方向走，而是合憲的法律制度來做，應該讓更多人來保護動物，並不是讓更多人來仇恨動物，這樣的想法是非常重要的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝老師的分享。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家討論了很多東西，最重要的東西是我們發現一個動物保護案件之後，相關的法條有相應的法律要件，我們在蒐證的時候，如何用公私協力方式來找到一些方式，讓大家可以蒐集到確實可以把大家定罪相關的證據，這樣子可能比較可以讓動物保護法來落實，進一步是要修憲。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果一直不斷去把法律修得很模糊，有時很可能會罰到不該罰的人，導致一般民眾受害，我想這個是大家都不樂見的。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "提案人提到的第一個重點，是「罰不到」行為人，另外一個重點是「找不到」行為人。我覺得針對「找不到」行為人部分，農委會的回應提了很多，那些是比較屬於針對「找不到」的處理。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "至於「罰不到」，跟剛剛林小姐提到的意見有關，亦即司法界會認為動物的法律位階還是「物」，而實務上，下意識的就會認為「動物的傷害或死亡」沒有那麼嚴重。或者，不要小題大作，大驚小怪。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "國際立法例有在民法裡面修訂，動物雖然不是「人」，但也不是「物」，創設一個「介於人與物之間」的法律位階。也有憲法立法例，強調國家應該立法保護動物（動物福利）。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "剛剛法務部檢察官有提到兩個很重要的問題：一是，民情是不是接受、是不是支持？二是，當我們討論「動物介於人跟物之間的法律位階」時，所謂「動物」，是不是只有狗跟貓，其他動物呢？範圍與界限在哪裡？" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "過去也有立法委員提過要讓「動保入憲」（就像「環保入憲」一樣），藉這個機會，有農委會、法務部在，我想問政府相關部門的意見，針對要修民法或憲法，政府的法律意見是什麼？如果民法要修，要提升動物的地位，介於人跟動物間，這個構想，法務部跟農委會的意見到底是什麼？如果是正面、積極的，民間團體當然也就可以順勢協作。修法、修憲是大事，法務部意見跟農委會的意見是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於動物位階的事情，法務部跟農委會的意見是什麼？法務部有沒有要回答？" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "我是一個律師，剛好因為老師提的公私協力，我有合作過，我在台中市有當過行政委託的稽查員，也做過這一類的案件，可以分享我的想法。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "其實我覺得第30條沒有問題，跟老師的見解一樣，我覺得罰則的部分，原則上是夠的，我也支持檢察官的說法，實際上是舉證責任的問題。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "如果是故意傷害，我們講白話一點，像人常常講挫傷，如果你是故意做的，如果你可以證明就違反第30條，如何去證明這一個挫傷是那個人造成的，如果有辦法證明就是第30條，也就是林檢察官所講的舉證責任，這個是未來要做的一個方向。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "對於第25條之1，我的想法是這樣，講到違憲確實有一點情況，但是我初步的想法是第25條之1如果是用比較嚴格的解釋，或許未來可以思考在這麼嚴格的條件底下是不是要複數動物或者是單數動物死亡而情節重大，因為本來是複數動物死亡而情節重大。情節重大應該可以請張老師分享，也就是如何判斷。情節重大的要件加上去之後，我們是不是需要是複數動物的死亡，這個或許可以考慮。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "這個在實務上因為做過一些稽查的工作，其實在實務上我自己做的心得是，目前大部分的情況是疏縱的情況比較多，其實是不當飼養的情況比較多，實務上一天可能發生三至四十個案件，但是這三、四十個案件，就我所知，可能佔了80％到90％，其實是不當飼養跟疏縱，真正達到我們所說的虐待不到5％，而這個虐待如何回歸到第25條、第25條之1、第30條之1，我自己也因為擔任協會的志工與協會的理事長，所以其實像我自己協會的人，其實是知道如何做蒐證的動作，或者像我剛剛所講的，其實是故意的傷害，可能是表皮，因為狗有很多毛，其實表皮的傷害也是傷害，只是如何把這個工作做完整，這或許才是未來要思考的方向。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "至於實際上要真的加重這樣的刑罰，因為我個人主修刑事法，因此我認為在這樣的情況之下再往上提，真的是會違反刑法上的罪責原則問題，這個恐怕會有一部分的違罰問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝您的分享，您覺得加重不太ok，但是舉證責任的問題應該是要大家好好面對，老師是不是可以說明一下情節重大？" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我要講很短，情節重大是典型的不確定法律概念，我們最需要的是把它類型化，也就是把它具體化，我現在沒有辦法給你一個回答，那個回答裡面可能要透過法學的研究，甚至於判決的整理，當然我們可以給大家一個判準。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "是行政罰法第18條的規定，簡單來說，我要看所受責難程度到哪裡、所產生的影響跟所生的利益，但是後面那個未必，當事人自律是問號，那個是罰得到、罰不到的問題，但前面三個類型可以讓大家做一個基本的思考。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我們覺得類型化的動作，其實德國法在法的具體化裡面，涉及到價值判斷，一直在做類型化，也就是到哪一個界限要遵守，特別是在刑法更重要，所以我覺得不如把它類型化，然後說這個東西放到哪裡就該當到哪裡去，做一些宣導，我覺得反而是比較重視的，這個是我以上的回應，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝老師分享關於情節重大類型化跟更細緻地處理。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "有關於提案的立場或者是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "對於把動物位階從物品提升出來的這個立場，還是目前沒有立場？" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "現在要有共識之後才有辦法決定。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "也就是法務部目前並沒有一個明確的想法。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "我們認為還是必須從務實面來看待這個問題，期待違法的人被罰，這一個事情是議題重點的話，我們是不是應該朝向這個部分來努力，而不是再思考法的單一層面，因為法訂得再高，如果罰不到的話，那個法還是空的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "剛剛老師有提到所謂在動保法裡面有不確定的法律概念，這一個部分或者是裡面也是我們進一步會處理訂定相關的裁罰標準之類的，都會繼續來做更細部的設計跟操作。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我先回應一下，主體的部分先提一下，德國民法認為非物跟法主體是兩回事，要分清楚。當然有兩個困難，本質是有物的性格，也就是法的性格，也就是權利客體的性格。第二，其實我們稱為法主體會稱為權力能力跟行為能力的問題，也就是今天動物最大的問題是，沒有辦法跳起來主張他的權力，跳起來我們也很害怕對不對？沒有辦法，所以只能怎麼樣？我們應該是說國家或者是誰要負有保護義務，把保護義務來履行，這個是動物保護法，我每次在上動物保護法的時候，一直講得很清楚，動物保護義務的概念，我們現在課予國家動物保護義務，所以要履行這個義務，我覺得這個想法農委會一直以來都有，在訓練上一直都有強調這一點，但是我希望大家去做他們的support，因為簡單來說他們要站在公益代表人努力去幫他，但是不能當作對象，我講實話，剛剛講一千一百多個案件其實很累，如果要花大部分的力氣來回答你說這樣做不夠，這樣是沒有辦法的。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我建議動物保護人士是要做一件事，要問動檢人員一件事，還可以幫你什麼，簡單來說是讓他最有效的是達到保護義務的行為，我覺得這個想法滿希望……剛好趁這個機會希望大家來想可以幫你做什麼，作為動物保護者而言可以幫你什麼，並不是不願意做，通常是沒有足夠的時間、人力、義務去做，我給大家的建議是這個，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "我之所以想要問法務部、農委會，究竟可不可以在民法、憲法裡面放這個位階，其實是覺得這整個動物虐待問題背後有一個非常重要的原因，就是整體社會對於動物，到底是否只是「物」、「食物」或是「工具」這樣一個概念。我們政府單位的立場如何？因為這是「動保」教育的基石。如果我們的政府，像我們的法務部說這個看民眾就好了，那法務部的立場到底是什麼？或者是農委會的立場到底是什麼？這樣並不是說，馬上要提高罰則、罰金，或者是延長刑期。並不是，而是我們的國家對於動物保護的這一件事，究竟是要跟國際的立法例來走、國際的精神來走？還是不是，只是限定在現行動物保護法的範圍就好了。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "如果法務部現在說沒有辦法回答這個問題、需要研究，我覺得也很好。這個研究很需要，看看如此修法、修憲，會碰到什麼問題。是民眾的問題？或者是立法技術的問題？或者是我國司法體系的問題等等。這樣會比較好一點，不是只說「看民眾」。當然我知道是要看民眾，但是我要問的是，我們現在政府的代表，出席在這個會議上的兩個部會是怎麼想的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實這樣看起來好像大家之前比較沒有研究過，可能帶回去嗎？" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "對於這樣社會的倡議，我們只要在行政量能上可承擔的範圍，我們都會進一步來做相關的研析，因為提到這樣的層次，其實已經超出現在的法律狀態，可能要延伸到其他的相關民法、刑法部分的關聯性，我認為真的需要比較審慎全盤，可能需要一個時間的研究案，我們在行政量能上的範圍，也會朝這個部分來作努力，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "法務部有沒有要補充？如果沒有的話，我們就……" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "剛剛有講到有關於非人的角度，因為我之前有搜尋過一個新聞可以提供給大家參考，在紐西蘭他們賦予一座山、一條河流有人格權，而這個人格權就是我們在主張的，就是一個人的狀態。這部分可以提供我們做參考比較先進的國家。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "我剛剛有提到公私協力的部分，我提供個人的經驗，像公私協力的部分，其實今天有參加台北市動保局的訓練當義務動保員，做類似像偵查的動作，但是沒有像動保員的行為，目前訓練課程結束都已經ok，但是這個地方好像是台北市法務部，該給我們怎麼樣的權責，他們還在商量，我們雖然是空有一個義務動保員的稱號，我們很想做，去外面幫忙，但是沒有辦法實際上去做。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這邊有一個很大的，有關於義務動保員落實的狀況怎麼樣，有沒有人有相關的實務經驗要分享的？就是目前義務動保員，就是我們之前的調查，我們確實有看到有義務動保員……現在的狀況是臺灣依法可以聘一些義務動保員，有時有人會指出用監督的態度去跟政府合作，而不是用合作的態度而導致更多的工作量，我不知道是不是有人可以分享實務上會遇到的問題或者是已經發生的問題？" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "我有參加過行政委託，我跟台北市政府間並沒有發生什麼衝突，實際上台北市動保處是把不當飼養跟疏縱的案件委託給民間團體來做一些稽查的動作，這個稽查的動作我覺得是對的，大部分民間委託的動保稽查員，實際上對於法規要如何完整適用，誠如林檢察官跟老師所講的，其實是不夠清楚的，縱使台北市動保處跟任何的動保處，實際上很詳細教導這一些義務的動保員該如何操作，但是畢竟受限於經驗上跟案例上不夠的現象，實際上是沒有辦法很確定當我現在看到他這個動作的時候，我下一步就應該怎麼罰，所以最終要不要裁罰的標準，應該要回到主管機關的。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "動保員的工作是什麼？他做的就是我去現場協助動保機關來做一些蒐證、飼主的訪問，到底有沒有真的有這樣子的情況，去訪問的過程中，當然會遇到一些刁難等等，我覺得其實是技巧，至少我自己訪視過七、八件沒有被刁難過，而且飼主都是同意他的家裡拍照的。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "所以我認為實際上義務動保員跟主管機關的立場，本來就是由義務動保員裡面只能做類似蒐證的動作，不應該是裁罰的主體，也不是裁罰的主體，而是把蒐證的資料紓解那麼多人力上的問題，然後回歸他們判斷，這個是主軸，這個是我參與動保稽查的經驗。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "動保處這邊的朋友有要？" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "其實我現場有去過，義務動保員其實第一個訓練的方式不多，但是我去參與的案子並不是義務動保員是團體，也就是壓著我們去辦案子，也就是姓黃的先生，我那時辦那個案子的時候，一開始就全程錄影，等到加害人，就是被報案的那個人非常不能諒解那個問題，動物的狀況自己碰到的情況是受到傷害等等。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "如果義務動保員跟政府配合是非常好的，但是現階段都處在一個監督的角色，會讓整個案子辦得非常麻煩。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "我還要講一下，動物的物跟人的問題，其實我剛剛是寫了一個，我們一直在講說一定要界定為人的話才可以處理，但是我剛剛想到一個，如果今天跟人家發生碰撞的時候，車子受傷是會負責原狀，如果狗訂為物的玖，加害者為恢復原狀的能力，今天把狗割傷了，醫療費用跟恢復原狀的費用由他負責，我相信這個東西所造成的能量會更大，因為你不可能開車會碰一臺賓士或者是藍寶堅尼，大家知道傷害一隻狗，傷害的狀況跟所付的費用，像要恢復原狀的錢的價值很高就不會做這個動作，我的看法是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "大橘子的事情我知道後續，因為台大的研究生到最後是精神有一點問題，但是要怎麼做是能夠不再傷害動物，如果每一次遇到傷害動物就會有問題。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "但是後來聽說有團體拉進來一起照顧動物，當跟動物產生感情連結之後就不會做加害動物的動作，所以我覺得今天與其把這個法律加得太重，其實現在已經很重了，不如去防止後面的人去做動作，還有成立一個比較好的機構，就是動物今天受傷了，沒有關係，我可以負責，讓他恢復到好的狀況，像剛剛講的是，一定要幫他截肢才可以負法律責任，這樣是不好的，身為獸醫，讓牠恢復原狀，把腳接好就接好，我不會故意截斷，讓他去做裁罰，我是不會這樣的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "關於監督的狀況要不要多說一點？" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "因為現在的團體有些是介於現在募款或者是利益的方向來講，除非這樣子政府才會配合，其實不會，像台北跟新北都很開放的態度，如果跟我們去的話，我們辦案的程度到哪一個地方，其實都可以做到這個部分，也就是案件透明化，並不會幫他做飼養的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "我是知道義務動保員的訓練真的很少，各地方要成立真的很少。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "台中要分享嗎？" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "今年台中委託給動保團體，總共有三個動保團體跟我們合作，已經委託80個案件了。確實如同剛剛蕭律師所說的，我們委託案件通常是以未妥善跟疏縱為主，其實真正虐待傷害，我們一定會自己去辦，那個非常緊急，人員一定趕到現場，不管時間。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "至於今年的虐待傷害案件，其實有跟我們同事想過真正惡意傷害的有四件，我們今年總共案件是1，500件，真正虐待傷害是4件，這4件不包含獸夾或者是毒殺，因為獸夾或者是毒殺比較像人狗衝突，像農民，那並不是典型的罪犯，我所謂的4件是惡意燒狗或者是吊狗的4件，檢警有介入的有3件，這3件最困難的點是找不到行為人，因為通常發生在很偏鄉、沒有監視器，檢、警幾個有幫我們採DNA，廚餘上有口水DNA，或者是菸蒂裡面有DNA，還有調閱監視器，可是都找不到行為人，這是最難的，如果要增加刑責的話，會變成徒法難以自行，刑責那麼高，但是找不到行為人，這個很關鍵，對我們來講，我們找不到人，即便刑責增高了，對我們有什麼幫助，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "警察方面有沒有要分享的？有沒有什麼需要大家幫忙的？好像還好。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "對不起，我剛剛有一點沒有聽得很清楚，也就是台北市動保處建沛所說的，你覺得義務動保員角色困擾的關鍵，是不是有一些動保員，即使是義務動保員，但是扮演的角色卻不是協助你當作義務動保檢查，而是監督你在如何做動物保護檢查？如果是後者，反而增加你處理事情的難度，是不是這樣？是不是這個意思？我想釐清。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "據我的經驗，將近18年，所遇到大部分都是監督政府去做的角色，因為我們覺得本來虐待傷害是政府要做的，可是現在遇到的TSPA繁殖場，那個還好，那個算是合作的方式，那個還不錯，但是說實在的，並不是義務動保員，而是一般民眾去舉報。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "因為我遇到那個團體，我剛去新北市的第一個案子就是這樣子，他們一進門就是為了直播、錄影、募款或怎麼樣而做的動作，我覺得這樣都很不好，因為動物私底下的傷害不是我們可以看得到的。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "我覺得義務動保員的角色好像必須再釐清，因為我自己本身去參加上課，他們跟我說可以當義務動保員，但是到目前為止沒有被通知是義務動保員，我相信很多民眾的角色並不是來監督的，真的很想協助，並不是要增加你們的困擾，而是以民眾的角度，希望這樣的事不要再不斷發生。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "我的問題點是在於到現在為止都沒有辦法真正成為一個義務動保員，不知道監督的角色是哪裡或者是哪一個單位來形成。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "另外，我剛剛聽到台中市的部分，都是在有飼主的部分比較多，但是虐待動物的案件比較麻煩的點是流浪動物，沒有飼主，因此很少人會有報案，虐待他們的人是有恃無恐，沒有主張他們的權利，因此有部分要放到流浪動物來討論，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "我找林小姐來做義務動保員。我們案子發生很突然就出去了，也不可能說今天有什麼案子，要林小姐幫忙配合。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "另外，公部門的制定還沒有建立完成，找你來的時候，可能會增加同仁一些負擔與作業，但是我們是很支持大家一起來辦案、保護動物。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "我以一個民眾的角度來發言，我也被通知可以當義務動保員，所以參加這個，參加完之後得到這樣的回應，以民眾的角度，會覺得我們所謂的公私協力是在哪裡？我上完課，也覺得有一點莫名其妙。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我覺得這個地方可能要放一下，因為那個問題是在於台北市動保處那個地方怎麼討論這一件事，如果他們不太知道狀況下，可能沒有辦法回答你這個問題，我們可能先放在這裡。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "但我想要請問有關於政府合作防止動物虐待協會這邊，就你們的經驗來講，動保員遇到什麼困難？" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "基本上我們其實目前好像還沒有擔任任何一個縣市的義務動保員，明年度會去台中上課，成為義務動保員，基本上我們協會自己有一個並不具備公權力的調查部門，是對於不當飼養案件、虐待案件的調查，包括流浪動物、飼主、脊椎動物都在裡面，我們收到民眾通報的時候，我們會主動跟主管機關聯系，也會了解案情的發展。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "我們了解到各地主管機關人力很缺乏的狀況，我們也會想要知道我們怎麼樣透過我們的力量、我們跟志工的合作，然後來協助主管機關處理這樣的案件，當然會有很多正面的合作效果，但是相對來講，當然也會有一些被認為是一種監督或者是過度監督的狀況，因為基本上站在動保團體的立場，或許是我們的標準會比較高，像在講疏縱情況、不當飼養的狀況，我們在講長期關籠，未給適當醫療、適當照顧的情況，我們會說個案中這樣的狀況就是違反動保法了，但可能地方主管機關任何還不算。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "我們不講哪一個地方，有些縣市會認為你們認為這一些案件都要通報，一方面幅員遼闊，太遠了，二方面真的是人力不足，所以會變成在這個部分會有一些覺得是不是管太多或者要求太過分，在這個地方，大家就是這樣子做。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "我們當然會希望透過這樣子合作的方式，能夠紓解主管機關的壓力，可是也是希望畢竟還是必須要把標準提高一點，讓人民或者是讓所有飼主、讓大家知道動保法要求並不是這麼低，你只要給動物有飯吃、空間住就好了，並不是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "還有一個很重要的問題，在提到公私協力的時候，我們遇到一個問題是追查一個案件，我們跟主管機關通報案件以後，然後會說是不是可以跟我們講說案件後續發展到什麼地步，會遇到兩個比較常見的困難，主管機關可能還沒有辦法做追查，或者是追查以後，可是比如會有現場的照片或者是相關的資料，可能主管機關就會礙於個資法的保障沒有辦法提供，如何跟個資主管機關建立互信，在不違反個資法的情況下了解案件的進行。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以如何跟相關主管機關建立互信，如何讓大家的標準一致，甚至有辦法提升主觀機關對於動物保護認知的標準，看起來大概像這個部分，公私協力的狀況是不是可以得到最新的進度，是不是有辦法、權利來了解這個狀況，像如果涉及個資法，你們拿到資料也要負保密義務，如何讓裁罰的標準是一致的，透過這個方式，可能兩邊的合作會更順暢一點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "不知道關於這一塊？" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "我從以前就參與農委會在做動物保護檢查員的訓練，我們很清楚農委會在訓練這一塊非常困難，訓練完之後流動率非常高。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "有一個關鍵是動物保護檢查員並不被社會認同，做的工作也不被認可，甚至於要穿制服執勤都不敢。有一些國家穿動物保護的制服是榮譽感，在台灣可能不敢這樣穿。我們思考這個問題，是希望能夠提升社會對動物保護的認知。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "但是我們也覺得今天在這個場合可以再提醒我們的政府單位，不管是農委會或者是法務部，如果真正關心動物保護的問題，的確可以思考如何在法律上提升動物的位階，但不是只有流浪狗、貓而已。不是只有狗、貓值得我們重視，整個動物保護、脊椎動物的範圍，是不是值得整體國家來思考。並不是被當作「毛小孩」的狗貓纔需要保護。被當作「食物」和「實驗對象」的動物，也一樣需要「保護」。動物並不能被當成只是「物」來利用，其社會位階、法律位階的提升，到底對整體社會有沒有幫助，我覺得這是值得研究、值得思考的，因為這才會幫助動物保護檢查員，在他們執法的時候，民眾會把它看成是一件值得重視、值得尊重的工作。而不是純粹跟我無關的道德高調而已，動物保護的確跟這個社會的發展有關。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "將近20年來，我們農委會花了非常多的錢去一屆屆訓練動物保護檢查員，十之八九都離開，做的工作不被重視、做的工作不被民眾認同。這是很根本的問題，所以我想再提一遍，整體動物法律位階的提升是很值得重視的一件事。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "大家分享都有提到一點，有關於動物保護檢查員的這個問題，甚至是公部門人力不足的問題，還有流動率高的問題，農委會的簡報其實也有提到，我不確定你要不要補充一下目前有沒有什麼關於人力補充改善的方案可以跟大家稍微說明一下。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "其實根源當然是回到當初動保法立法時執法的人力跟預算，在當初的歷史背景其實都沒有被處理的，都以現有機關、現有的承辦人力直接執行這一部法，所以導致現在人力的基層結構性問題。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "當然這幾年其實我們可以看到有一些縣市政府如果是在首長對於這個業務相對重視的時候，就願意撥補一些正式的人力、預算來投入這樣的工作，相對這個縣市在做這樣的動物保護工作上，我們就比較可以看到有一些績效，有一些縣市本身財政或者是很多其他的農業或者是畜牧業存在時，要移撥人力的投入會相對困難。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "所以我們會看到動保業務存在所謂城鄉差異的問題，包括民眾的認知也有城鄉差異的問題存在，這一個部分真的還需要更多的努力，不管是政府部門或者是民間團體，或者是對於民眾所謂教育的這一塊，都要同步來進行一些更多的努力跟開展，才有辦法去做進一步的改善。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "因為其實我們一直都在討論動保法的部分，提案人我看提案內容，其實有講到除了加重罰則之外，還有心理治療、公布姓名、負擔費用，像剛剛台北市有在裡面提到，有一個問題是，我們一直在討論刑罰，可是其實教育是其中一塊，我們看到動保法第33條之1，其實是有動物保護講習，但是動物保護講習類似交通道安講習，我不知道道安講習的成效是什麼，因為我沒有依據。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "我的疑問是，我們有沒有可能透過動物保護講習，因為我們有一個動物保護講習辦法，這個已經公告很久了，其實已經公告三年多了，106年又有修正過，我們有沒有可能通過動物保護講習辦法裡面的動物保護講習，落實在行政教育上，大家落實比較好的觀念，這個是第一個問題。" }, { "speaker": "蕭立俊", "speech": "第二個問題是，我們對於這樣虐狗的人要做心理治療，我們有辦法提供一個是的依據嗎？因為進行心理治療在現在好像要達到一定……這個我不確定，我沒有依據，但是就我的認知，像強制性交犯等等的，他們才會有心理治療，我們突然要在這一塊賦予心理治療要怎麼做會比較好，其實也是討論的重點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於心理治療的部分，因為今天衛福部不在，之前就有提書面意見，也有放到議題手冊裡面，他的意思簡單來說是心理治療要針對的是精神疾病，但是虐待動物的狀況，比較常發生是反社會人格，而反社會人格其實心理治療並不是精神病的範疇，所以沒有辦法用這樣的方式來處理。" }, { "speaker": "林道元", "speech": "罰則裡面還有一個是公布姓名跟犯罪事實，因為他是很惡意，像我們這一次的案件，因為流浪貓基本上只要讓牠體無完膚，牠在外面可能活一個禮拜就死了，所以基本上這個應該算是很惡意的傷人，可以判斷有一些反社會人格。" }, { "speaker": "林道元", "speech": "我們能不能在第30條也加入公布照片或者是姓名的部分，感覺也是潛在的危險。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "請老師幫忙分享一下，現在的狀況是，如果臺灣今天用刑法去罰了，就不會用行政法去罰，公布姓名這一件事是行政法的範疇，因為這樣子，所以很多如果你太嚴重變成刑法罰了，就沒有用行政法來處理。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "另外一塊林逸萍小姐特別提到有關於流浪動物的部分，我們到底要如何處理相關的東西，是不是有人可以分享一下，我目前各縣市處理流浪動物大概常常預見的一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "我想用另外一個觀點來看這個提案，在農委會準備的資料裡第27頁，「其他國家虐待動物」的罰則，英國動物保護已經將近200年了，但他們的罰則其實並不高，我想罰則跟金額或者是刑期多少，其實真的並不是那麼重要。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "我覺得重點是，他們有100多年的法律，過去叫做動物保護法，應該是2015年就把動物保護法的「保護」二字修改成「動物福利法」，為什麼要這樣？因為要讓民眾認知，所謂動物「保護」，是保護什麼？要到什麼程度？保護的對象是什麼？目的是促進「預防」動物虐待，預防「動物被疏於照顧」，因為「疏於照顧」也是一種虐待。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "為什麼要修成動物福利法，有一個關鍵是動物福利不只是身體的傷害而已，還有包括心理上的傷害，這個部分在我國的動保法律面裡面幾乎是沒有的。因此，第一個關鍵，是要把動物保護的實質內涵講清楚，就是要保護牠的福利，牠的福利包括了身體、環境及心理，因為有這樣的明確性，就可以讓整個國家社會、民眾可以了解我們到底要保護動物的什麼、保護到什麼程度。這樣，去執法、去教育宣導才有一個很明確的依據。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "我們認為農委會可以思考，或者整個社會可以思考，看起來我們的「動物保護法」好像可以保護動物，但往往「保護範圍」或程度是有限的，模糊空間太大。如果改成動物福利法，是不是會比較明確？這個會涉及到每一個動物、每一個民眾，你可以不愛動物、不喜歡動物，但是不能傷害牠，不能傷害的意義是什麼，就很明確。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "是更根本的問題，不是談動物保護，而是談動物福利。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我回應剛剛的問題，行政罰法第26條第1項的規定，一行為同時觸犯刑事法律及違反行政法上義務之規定者，依刑事法律處罰之，但是但書是說「但其行為應處以其他種類行政罰或得沒入之物而未經法院宣告沒收者，亦得裁處之」，因為是落在行政罰法第2條第4款，所以其實還是可以罰的，就公布姓名。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我還是要提醒一件事，公布姓名的目的是在哪裡？如果公布姓名是要羞辱他，我講大法官釋字第656號還要注意，包含道歉行為時，不能道歉的目的是要羞辱他，這樣的思考點就不一樣，而且我們長期以來在做公布姓名是有兩個作用，其實動物保護法比較少是，公布你的姓名是會影響到其他人的利益，所以法是針對業者、團體，避免其他人不知道原來他的行為是這樣。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "像我舉一個例子好了，大家來這邊的通常是花最大的力氣由心去關心動物，但是很多人以這個來作為謀略的可能性，這個我們要思考如何就出來，這個思考公布姓名跟犯罪事實反而是重要的。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我們必須要談論公布姓名的目的在哪裡，剛剛講的前提是，如果公布姓名的目的是要羞辱他，這個真的要想一下，這個是影響名譽的行為，我沒有認為……更何況，我剛剛講得很清楚，像精神衛生法的規定裡面是針對精神疾病，所以剛剛講強制治療的部分。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "但是剛剛蕭律師講得非常好，其實是可以做輔導教育，行政罰法第2條第4款的規定，我是可以作輔導教育的，第3款是所謂的影響名譽處分，像公布姓名，我覺得後面的輔導教育反而可以做。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我常常在講，臺灣人講實話，亞洲人比較不怕你罰他，比較怕煩，講習的時候會覺得壓力勝過於罰多少錢，罰多少錢反而解決不了，我常常說用程序的方式，甚至我們講說用講習的方式，因為我在看那一些觸目驚心，比如你在交通講座，看完之後會有一段時間，自己開車變得很謹慎，為什麼？因為他一直告訴你現在所為的行為，接下來有可能產生什麼效果。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "其實動物保護在輔導的教育訓練，農委會我建議是可以著手去做，因為我們只能儘量去思考教育方面，能夠多做哪一些事，像我們剛剛講的前提，我給大家一個概念好了，我去德國的時候，我剛開始覺得我的德文不太好，因為我看到一個公寓廣告看不懂，上過我課的同仁都知道，那一句話是請你對你的小孩跟你的狗一樣好，這樣有沒有聽懂邏輯？我覺得這樣一定是我的德文出了問題，德國人是對狗比較好或者是小孩比較好？如果我們要期待那個情形，其實就不用講狗是不是人，這個事情就不重要了，可能由新的在社會裡面如何潛移默化訓練他，在108課綱裡面放進去生命教育，我覺得是好事，我們做哪一些行為，可以由根改善，但是有一些沒有辦法，現在在提的問題在講一句話，現在把很多例外的案件作為原則，我們現在在思考的是做了很多的案子，我們會紊亂地大家認為大部分的人不保護動物，這剛好顛倒，大部分的人是愛護動物。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我們剛剛講的是，我們覺得其實國家保護目的，這個社會共識的形成是可以做的，讓他成為一個社會共識，這個其實反而彰顯了一件事，這個國家大部分的人是愛護動物的，但是所有媒體報導是在報導傷害動物或者是愛護動物，久而久之，大部分的人不太愛護動物，但是其實不是，我們覺得在思考上，不能為了例外，我們為了解決例外問題來創造原則，我覺得不是很贊成。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我覺得強制心理治療確實不是完全不能做，我們要排除的是反社會那一塊，屬於精神疾病的時候，衛生法不代表不能適用，但是就不在我們的領域，而是衛福部決定可不可以用。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "至於負擔動物醫療費用那一塊，我們現在問題在必須要解決的是游蕩動物，如果要讓動保處的同仁，包含台北市動保的同仁不要再那麼辛苦，這個國家沒有流浪動物、游蕩動物，這一件事才是要做的，我們應該要講每一個動物都要被登記，完整地被登記，整個歷程很清楚，就不會有游蕩動物。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "簡單來說，我們必須要想得很清楚才能養一隻動物，養一隻動物的成本實在太低了，後面的成本是誰在付？我們都叫國家去做，我們都說用愛心去做，在養動物不用想太多的那一群人，我覺得社會不公平是在這邊，如果成為一個游蕩動物的這個情形，我們必須要拿掉，至少在德國沒有機會看到流浪動物。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "我以為德國已經最可怕了，其實不是，奧地利更可怕，我到維也納客座的時候，你養一隻狗要付稅，所以確實要當什麼？當一個孩子來養的時候，任何寵物都不用擔心，不會被丟掉。" }, { "speaker": "張錕盛", "speech": "但是如果都沒有想清楚就養一隻動物，我覺得應該在修法的方向應該往這個地方，應該讓我們的管制可以全然管制，我們現在解決的問題卡在這邊，也就是如果今天是有飼主的，剛剛法務部的同仁講的是對的，我用民事賠償也很貴，關鍵在於沒有飼主，這個叫做「客觀法主觀化」，因為現在沒有人有這個權利，所以我們必須要賦予一個人有這個權利來行使請求權，有兩種可能，一個是在動物保護法作特別的規定，求償的可能性是有，挹注的基金應該是到政府的部門裡面去，讓他同時在動物保護就可以做到，民法沒有辦法，單純從民法，我們找不到誰是權利主體，因此游蕩動物的損害賠償做不到，那個法要特別立這樣的規定，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們看一下sli.do上的問題，就是剛剛提過的這一個，剛剛有討論了。好像沒有了，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於流浪動物的部分，目前有沒有人想要分享什麼的？" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "（這次的經驗）我們跟附近鄰居們自發性去看監視器（蒐證），其實也非常感謝警察幫忙。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "一般大眾遇到的問題，是如果要學著自己舉證，像我自己要google，也google不到，資訊也有落差。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "還有像每個案件的後續，雖然比較少人會追蹤，但是其實也有人想知道這一件事最後結果是怎樣，或者是以往發生的案件最後是怎麼樣。像大橘子的犯人，一般人應該都不知道他最後到底去哪裡了，（只是因為案子鬧得很大）大家都知道有一個殺貓的僑生，但是沒有人知道最後怎麼了（譬如前面提到聽說有其他社團在幫助他）。以我們的立場是想要知道怎麼蒐證，（遇到事情的時候）我們都很願意協助，但是我們想要知道（如何）蒐證跟結果。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "所以關於案件後續透明化的問題，希望可以讓大家知道，也許有一些好的後續狀況，大家可以知道，大家可以改變不同的想法。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有關於臺灣的寵物登記的問題，農委會目前有沒有遇到什麼困難可以跟大家分享的？因為他們提到是飼養動物成本想要提高的這一件事。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "針對寵登的制度，確實我們執行了快要20年了，我們會發現的是，真的把動物當家人的飼主，其實他們應該就是早就已經做了寵登的動作，但是有一群飼主自我認知只是餵牠、給牠一點飯，但是並不是我養的，這個在鄉下的狀態，這個飼養行為還是存在的。" }, { "speaker": "鄭祝菁", "speech": "這幾年會做三合一下鄉的絕育，寵登同時完成的動作，就是希望把這一群以這樣養狗的人，讓飼主的身分明確化，未來針對寵登這一塊，還是要思考如何突破現在的瓶頸，可以更有效做到只要養了動物就是有登記的這一件事，確實現在在行政的操作上，我們一直在思考如何更有效，也會跟執行的人力有相關的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "其實包含您這邊還有包含臺灣防止動物虐待協會都提到一件事，也就是動物意識上的城鄉差距問題，其實是相當嚴重的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "關於這個部分，你們在偏鄉地方如何強化這一件事？但是其實還好？" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "其實就這個部分也沒有特別講，想到剛剛的例子，跳回來剛剛，基本上公私協力，我不太確定這算不算常態，但是提給大家聽一下，很多民眾對於公家機關就是防治所或者是收容所的部分，會有很大的不信任感，像我前幾天就看到其實有一個案件，我直接講好了，就是在花蓮，有民眾上網去說在某個村落裡面，然後有一隻懷孕的母犬，牠是有飼主的，然後被車撞了，現在敘述描寫的狀況，撞了以後那一隻母犬就受傷了，撞到小狗，不知道這個是不是有可能，然後就跑出來，然後被壓死，明顯裡面還有其他的小狗，狗的傷害狀況很嚴重或者是很危急。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "上網看到那個人講說是有飼主的，然後飼主也知道狗的狀況，但是知道隨便買藥去給牠吃，也沒有送醫或怎麼樣，不知道是幾個小時或者是兩天，我忘了。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "上網求救有沒有人可以救這一隻狗，因為身體的狀況，而沒有辦法去救援這一隻狗，一堆人講說有沒有救狗、轉發及按讚，大家就開始聽過有名的動保人士說請來救援，但是沒有人想要去通報花蓮的動保機關，我在上面建議了，也通報了花蓮動保機關，上面只有一個大概的村落，沒有詳細的路牌，只有一個村，然後防治所是講說需要詳細的地址才可以安排人過去，也不一定可以過去。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "我也可以理解，花蓮4點多了，我那時google一下，大概需要兩個小時左右的時間，要花蓮的人過去，花蓮防治所的人過去，當然不一定馬上可以成形，但是畢竟是一個相對於你要找什麼台南的人或者是哪裡的人過去看，還要有機會，而且是一個不當飼養的案件，你讓狗在外面被撞了，而且沒有給予適當醫療的案件，都可以讓主管機關去介入的，但是相對來講，在那一整串裡面，沒有人想要或者是願意去通報動保處，甚至通報動保處，進去之後會被安樂死，大概是這樣子。" }, { "speaker": "周敬凡", "speech": "其中遇到的問題是怎麼樣在幅員遼闊的地方，人力不足的地方，如何建立公私協力的可能，如果當地可以培訓相關的志工，那當然會更好；第二，如何建立人民對於動保機關的信任度，我覺得這個是滿重要的一點。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "非常感謝分享。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "我講一下好了，其實分兩點：" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "通報動保機關之後，可以為那一隻狗做什麼？如果可以幫那隻狗送過來，這邊有醫療中心，直接幫牠結紮、傷口處理到好，然後再賦予主人求償或者任何的法律責任都可以，可是問題是，各縣市政府都沒有這個東西，也沒有能力去幫這一隻動物來做這一個手術，所以民眾會覺得通報你要做什麼？" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "第二，民眾其實自己可以想辦法幫那一隻動物做什麼，如果今天去跟那個人協調到好，我幫你出錢去動物醫院做治療，這一方面我是講第二點，因為現階段沒有那麼多資源投入在這一方面。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "為什麼會這樣？其實很多縣市都這樣，而且再者是動保人員真的很不夠。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "好，非常感謝。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "講到公私協力的部分，像SPCA是充分了解台中動保處的團體，像SPCA有跟我們通報一個案件，就是不當飼養的，SPCA傳給我們的時候，整個照片、狗被藏在哪裡都很清楚，因為昨天他們是希望是不是可以昨天派員去，但是我們昨天同仁都在石岡山上很偏遠，根本不可能趕到那邊，可是SPCA非常充分了解我們，沒關係，已經給我們這一些證據，之後找時間過去看，這個是公私協力，彼此有互信來進行的。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "再來，剛剛說流浪動物的部分，因為動物的定義是犬貓及其他人為飼養的脊椎動物，對於流浪、不流浪在罰則上比較沒有差異，我比較想知道的是針對求償或者是流浪動物是要主人跟行為人求償，這個比較有差異，我想明確化這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "如果是流浪動物的話，基本上是不會有人發現牠死掉。一開始就不會知道牠死掉或者是不見或者是有受傷什麼的。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "像這隻貓是我們工作室後來才搬過去，他本來就是附近的浪貓，是我們去了以後，會讓牠進來裡面休息，才會發現牠受傷。這個事件潑20幾隻，實際上一定是潑更多，我們就當他潑了4、50隻好了。一個多月以後才發現是有人在潑貓，我覺得這個是流浪動物跟寵物最大的差別，要有一段很長的時間才會發現這是一個案件。因為浪貓常常會不見個幾天，所以大家都會很習慣，到發現的時候，證據、現場連監視器什麼的，都已經久到被洗掉了，是這個案件搜證的難處。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "講到養動物的付出太便宜，我有一次在日本的時候，看到寵物店，看了一隻貴賓狗的價格在那邊數，發現是100萬日幣，我昨天隨便查了一下在臺灣買了一隻貴賓狗，是1萬2。" }, { "speaker": "Su Jessie", "speech": "還有像美國要領養動物以前，要花一筆還滿高額的，就是要付很多錢、做很多檢查才可以領養到那一隻寵物，我們現在的流浪動物真的太多，老實說我今天中途如果有人要來領養就很開心了，還會附嫁妝，我覺得這是大眾對於飼養貓狗很基本的教育不足。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個是很基本大家對於這一件事認知的問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "朱老師完接下來要討論下午要做什麼。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "剛剛張老師提到好幾次，關於真正關鍵在于我們要不要有流浪狗、流浪貓，我們要接受有流浪狗、貓？或者是要接受街上沒有流浪狗、貓，這是很重要的議題。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "張老師提到一個可以立法「替流浪狗求償」的「客觀法、主觀化」的概念。反之，則是很多人「把例外當成原則」，以及想把「主觀價值客觀化」。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "我們必須體認，在談流浪狗貓的時候，其實有些人不喜歡貓、有些人不喜歡狗，有些人可能喜歡貓跟狗，但是不喜歡野生動物。或者，反過來說，有些人喜歡野生動物，但不喜歡貓狗。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "很多愛護野生動物的人，會視貓狗的入侵為敵，但又有人主張流浪狗、貓的正常化，我不知道政府要怎麼做，動保檢查員要如何面對這個問題。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "因此，人們應該怎樣對待動物的最上位原則沒有清楚，這個社會沒有基本的共識，農委會有再多的動保檢查員也沒有辦法「落實動物保護」，只能「父子騎驢」，怎樣做都不對。如果社會主張就是狗跟貓可以留在街頭、社區及國家公園，那麼政府面對人狗衝突、狗貓衝突、生態與寵物衝突時，該怎麼辦？這個是我們必須要面對的問題，並不是單純貓、狗的保護。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "就算只談狗跟貓的保護，農委會也正在調查，其實很多狗跟貓會在路上車禍，很多路殺死亡，我們不能只看到有些貓狗受到虐待，卻無視於許多狗、貓在一般的公路上受到撞擊死亡，他們的傷害怎麼辦？這個是沒有辦法看到的。如果這個問題不被看到，就會看到一些非常的特例。" }, { "speaker": "朱增宏", "speech": "反過來說，如果動保團體主張「精準捕捉」的結果，是動保行政單位儘量不捕捉，是讓狗跟貓留在社區，他們被虐待的例子是不是會增加？不喜歡貓、狗的人就會看到這種狀況，而他們的反應可能對貓狗不利。這透過提高刑罰就可以解決問題嗎？我認為不能是解決的。我想這個是價值觀的問題，不同的價值觀、不同的喜歡，如果沒有一個高度來協調這樣相異的價值觀和「喜歡」，衝突就無法避免，不可能透過現有的法律或措施來解決。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "老師這邊分享的是，最根本的問題還是民眾間的價值觀，如何讓大家有比較一致的想法，如果沒有的話，其實這一種衝突永遠都會存在。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "目前根據大家的討論，我們看起來問題是：" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第一，如何在現有的人力下提升動物保護的能量，以避免更多的流浪動物遭到虐待？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "第二，我們如何改善動保員、警方、目擊民眾蒐證虐待流浪動物不易的問題，以避免更多的流浪動物遭到虐待。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "這個是我們下午討論的問題，不知道大家對於這個問題有沒有覺得需要補充的？如果沒有的話，我們就用這兩個問題來做小組的分組討論。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "有幾個問題可能會影響下午大家在做決定時的一些資訊，我剛剛有一些細節的知識，我想要知道，不曉得有沒有人可以回答，大概有四個問題：" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "第一，衛福部有提到反社會人格，其實不能用心理矯正的方法，剛剛其實老師也提到，其實可以透過所謂的輔導教育。我想要知道的是，衛福部今天可能沒有來，但是不曉得法務部這邊的同仁是不是可以幫我們回覆，一般來說如果不是虐待動物，而是其他種的反社會人格，像我在想鄭捷算不算？就不能用心理矯正，除了輔導教育以外，是不是有其他的方法是特別針對這一種反社會人格來做處置的？我覺得這個資訊會跟下午有關係，因此我想要知道。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "第二個問題是，義務動保員的設計，其實這一個問題我記得已經討論了四、五年及五、六年了，其實台北市政府就已經想要做如何把稽查的義務動保員的SOP做出來，後來事實上沒有做起來，但是事實上SPCA也有經驗，農委會也有這個動機，我們每一年也有找RSPCA到臺灣來做培訓，我不知道如果要把稽查的SOP做起來，有什麼困難？我們可以讓幾個地方政府就可以有東西follow，我記得已經談了很多年了，幾位長官也都不見了，這部分我不曉得未來碰到什麼樣的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "第三個問題，我覺得動物老師提得非常好，我們現在要把動物的傷害恢復原狀，這時候可能會有一些理賠的事情，您提到其實現在的問題是，因為可能是流浪犬，所以就沒有飼主，沒有飼主就沒有辦法恢復原狀，大概類似的意思是這樣子，因此建議我們是在動保法當中修法。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "我想問的是法務部同仁或者是老師，我們在修這個法的時候，會不會又有新的阻礙跟問題？這個問題會是什麼？這個是我想問的第三個問題。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "第四個問題，剛剛有夥伴提到我們怎麼樣讓老百姓知道舉證，而舉證的SOP怎麼做？如果沒有記錯，像佐湘里（音譯）試著要做一套系統，是不是由農委會跟他們合作，把這一些資訊變成是更法制化、公開化、制度化，真的可以讓民間在做的事，讓政府接手，然後讓老百姓知道如何舉證的SOP做得更好，以上是我四個問題，謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "有一些問題其實下午的討論，應該是可以處理到，包含第二個義務動保員的設計是否有SOP，以及讓一般民眾SOP怎麼做，這個是我們下午討論的一些問題。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "先請法務部幫忙分享一下目前反社會人格，法制上有沒有什麼處理作為？" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "如果有精神疾病的狀況之下被減刑或者是免刑時，其實是有監護處分的，但是這個也是法律要裁判的才可以做。但是實行的內容是什麼，我沒有辦法回答。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "像小燈泡案件，類似行為人，在羈押當中的時候，其實矯正署，因為算真的是很特別的人格，有一些就我自己所知可以確定的證據，輔導團體是有進去幫他製作的，就是個案式的輔導。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "監護處分是什麼？" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "就是去精神病院或什麼的狀況，就是去做強制治療，就是另外一強制治理，並不是強制治療，就是讓他去做治療。" }, { "speaker": "吳宗憲", "speech": "是類似強制治療？但是並不是治療？這個問題我覺得很重要，反社會人格並不是像衛福部所講的心理矯正，剛剛檢察官有提到反社會人格……" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "我沒有是說反社會人格一定可以用這個方式，而是第19條經過鑑定以後，認為第19條精神上問題的話，法院是可以做這樣的裁定。" }, { "speaker": "林芝郁", "speech": "基本上就我自己所知，在一個比較大範圍的上位階精神疾病概念，其實反社會人格算是其中一種，但的確在精神科醫師，反社會人格其實是沒有辦法治的，所有其他的精神疾病都可以用藥物控制，只有這一個是沒有辦法治的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們再問一下，有關於第二個義務動保員跟第三個問題。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "其實針對義務動保員的訓練，當然農委會辦過、地方政府也一直在辦，可是在合作機制上，確實存在我們過去看到的一些衝突案例，主要因為關心動物的人其實可能相對是非常感性的，所以可能到了現場處理案件的時候，相對地很容易跟還不確定是會被處分的這個當事人就會有一些衝突存在。" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "公部門處理這樣行政調查時，就直接進入衝突的狀態，真的會衍生一些爭議，所以在實務操作上，確實會有一些設計上必須進一步處理，例如可以成為義務動保員的人應該是怎麼樣的人，或者應該先具備怎麼樣的法制上專業性，才適合進到現場，而不是抱著滿腔熱情到現場，可能會讓這個案件進入到衝突的狀態而沒有辦法處理，因此我們確實還需要後續整個制度操作上來做更精細的設計，這個一定會是持續希望發展的方向，因為公司協力才有辦法在動保工作上可以是一個大幅往上進步的可能性，這一條路我們是一定要發展的，只是怎麼樣做這一件事，如何進一步被設計、規劃，我們還需要更多的努力。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "醫療索賠方面？" }, { "speaker": "林逸萍", "speech": "按照現行法制並沒有這樣的規劃，具有可行性或者是後續行政上的操作也具有可行性的話，這樣的法制後續修法或各方面的設計，我們也是樂見其成的。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "謝謝。我們澄清到這邊告一個段落，sli.do上還有沒有問題？如果沒有新的問題，我們先中午休息，接下來下午的時候，我們會分成兩組，然後來討論剛才提到那兩個問題，接下來休息到1點，大家可以自己休息。" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "我們接下來一個部分是分組討論，分組討論是會分兩組，一組請把這邊的桌子併到這邊，請把那一張桌子併到那一桌，我們一共分這兩組，農委會這邊已經有小桌長，小桌長可以站起來跟大家打招呼嗎？" }, { "speaker": "林雨蒼", "speech": "如果是同單位、同性質的人請你分兩邊，像地方政府的動保處就要分兩邊，如果是這邊有動物社會，他們也要分兩邊。請大家儘量分散到兩邊，讓兩邊的人都有一樣的多元性。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝兩組，我們都完成下午階段的討論，我們接著下來就歡迎，歡迎第一組幫我們說明一下討論的狀況。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "大家好，我是農委會畜牧處動物保護科陳宜鴻，我代表這一組報告，這個有兩個題目，因此分成兩張概念發展單，第一個問題有關於人力不足的部分，我們大概分成了三個主要看到的問題，第一個是純粹的人力不足，另外一個是一般的民眾如何協助，還有如何增加義務人員的部分。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "在人力不足的部分，我們解決的辦法，我們提出了公私協力或者是民間的動保員，還有一個部分是個人的部分，或者是利用非正式合作的機制，在公私協力跟民間動保員的部分，可能會發生的風險跟障礙的部分，可能會造成溝通不順或者是權責分不清楚。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "克服的方式是，我們會去建立明確的合作機制，以及正式以行政委託的方式，讓民間的動保員可以處理，公私協力會比較清楚，這一些方式甚至可以開立一些勸導單。負責的單位會是中央、地方主管機關以及民間團體一起共同努力。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "個人的部分是這一些風險不太容易受到監督的，要如何去克服這一些？就是讓這一些個人去加入團體，讓這一些個人受到團體的監督，同時也可以回到本來公部門的監督下。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "這一些部分還可以再透過教育訓練的方式來落實，我們負責的單位，一樣是中央、地方主管機關與民間團體一起努力。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "最後另外一種是比較特殊的非正式合作的部分，會遇到的風險是沒有經過訓練，所以會造成現場的一些衝突，因為比較感性一點，把他的情感放在前面，會造成一些現場的執法衝突，這個克服方式就會利用事前的教育訓練跟溝通來作處理。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "另外，一般民眾如何去協助？可以透過里長來做推動動保法的推廣，里長會遇到的風險與障礙，也就是里民人情的壓力，這個要靠平常訓練、溝通技巧來作處理，里長的部分可以透過民政系統、地方主管機關合作、協調。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "最後如何增加義務動保員的部分，解決方法可能就是可以找一些相關的業者、建立一些志工的招募，又或者是利用動保團體同溫層的部分來訓練這一些志工。另外，也可以讓獸醫有這樣的機制在。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "可能遇到的風險是，我們這邊好像沒有提到，還有一些美容業者跟學生的社團，也可以來作為這一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "陳宜鴻", "speech": "如何訓練這一些人？就是靠宣導、招募及SOP的方式來處理，而負責的機關是動保團體跟地方主管機關，這個是第一個部分。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "大家好，這一組第二個部分是蒐證到底為何會這麼不容易？蒐證不易可以分成在事情發生中，也就是虐待的當下，如何蒐證不易，還有虐待完，事情都過了，不是第一現場，這個蒐證不易有哪一些？" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "事中蒐證可以分成六種，也就是六個困難處：" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "第一個是違法蒐證的問題，私人的場所去蒐證，會不會有違法的疑慮？" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "第二個蒐證困難是，像提案人有講到都已經隔很多天了，所以也沒有看到貓的實體，所以不知道死亡的原因。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "第三個是一般民眾對動物比較沒有感覺，也就是有很多人在路上看到死掉的狗貓，認為這個垃圾丟一丟就好了，也會導致很難蒐證。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "第四個是主管機關有沒有到場蒐證，地方動保處管轄的區域很大，在人員少的狀況下，他們其實很難像警察馬上到現場，所以主管機關比較有這一方面知識的人，到現場是需要時間的，也會有一個時間差。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "第五個蒐證困難是，像這一次的案件，公務員裡面沒有監視器，在台北市監視器密度最高的城市是沒有了，更何況其他的縣市。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "接著是有些里長不會配合，隱匿一些事情，就為了服務人民。有關於透過解決方法，我們可以分成狀況一，也就是不知道是誰，但是是在公開場合，我們可以使用地方政府跟當地的愛爸、愛媽合作，就做一個高風險地圖，像人狗衝突或者是人貓衝突比較高的地方，我們做一個風險的地圖。我們可以在風險高的地方去架設一些監視器的設備，可以增加蒐證的成功率。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "狀況二是知道誰在公開的場合，左湘敏已經有一些課程在教大眾如何蒐證，就是要讓更多人知道如何去錄影或者是攝影，SPCA的網站上也有一些蒐證的清單。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "可能會遇到的問題，像如果是非公開場所拍的，這個證據有可能侵犯人家的隱私，但如果這個民眾可能不知道通報主管機關，只知道上傳到報廢公社、爆料公社，也是侵犯到人家的隱私權，不可能散布虐待動物的影像，這個也有可能需要考慮。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "再來，有關於事後蒐證的話，遇到的困難是，如果證據不見了，像很多愛動物的人，動物受傷或者是被虐待，就是把動物拿到火化業者火化掉，我們沒有辦法取得關鍵的證據。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "或者像這一次的送醫，這一個貓咪送到醫院的時候，傷口已經被獸醫生清過，已經沒有留過相關的證據。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "接著是動物醫院，其實並不是像人一樣，醫生看到受虐兒，有義務通報主管機關，動物是沒有依據的，這個也是小漏洞或者是大漏洞。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "有關於克服的方法，也都聚焦於教育及宣導，像加強獸醫的教育，或者是小朋友學校的生命教育，才可以讓大眾對於動保及保護動物比較有這樣的意識，還有獸醫生才可以知道這樣的案件是有牽涉到虐待動物。像主人也有提到只要有虐待動物以後，有可能虐待人，大家的接受度就會比較高。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "接著要做蒐證的SOP，把人、事、時、地、物講清楚，還有附照片，請里長幫忙宣傳。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "接著是像專線，像動保專線廣為人知，民眾更容易通報，在電話中告訴他趕快拍、如何蒐證，或者是跟蹤那個人知道住哪裡。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "接著是協會也可以幫忙宣傳蒐證的一些SOP，協會指的是動保團體。" }, { "speaker": "柯懿庭", "speech": "接著是環保局早上看到動物屍體會丟掉，有可能知道與虐待有關，因此要注意。其實地方主管機關跟動保團體都算是滿主力的，所以教育的部分，是教育部跟防檢局，給里長SOP是內政部民政局比較相關，那一些教育宣導也是要通過動保團體、地方動保處及主管機關互相合作。謝謝。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "各位先進大家好，我們組有五個問題：" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "第一，現有能力不足的時候如何提升？我們今天討論的問題是虐待的問題，社區要互相參與，在參與的時候，我們如何參與？我們想要跟動保團體公私協力合作。寵物登記管理時，有一些義工也可以做寵物登記管理，或者是義務動保員。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "里長為何會不願意參與這一方面的問題？我們如何讓里長來參與？我們會抓住里長需要的東西，可能是用選票或者是里民的參與，像所有的里民是這個里做動物保護的事、TNR的事情。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "如果全民里民都參與的時候，TNR可以執行的話，就可以跟動保團體合作，可以幫忙結紮，然後原地放養跟後續照顧。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "現有能量不足，如何克服？我們會先用公司部門的宣導活動，然後在里民大會的時候，我們會跟他們講TNR的共識，但是里長會覺得只是想要把動物移走而已，所以這一方面我們需要由民政局幫我們做這一方面，才可以一起合作努力。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "有關於鼓勵絕育方面，現在動物太多了，我們會跟里長一起辦現在農委會在辦的里民競賽，也就是這個里絕育的話，會有補助跟獎勵。在學校方面會希望用生命教育的方式來參與活動。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "第二，我們有提到私人狗場的問題，私人狗場是屬於另外一個部分的問題，我們要如何改善？因為私人狗場有好的、也有壞的，但是大部分會出問題是資源不足，會在哪一個地方補助資源？以我們這麼多的例子來看的話，大部分是在照顧方面是飼料沒有問題，但是在醫療的部分，他們可能會比較欠缺。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "這方面要如何處理？是各個防治所裡面，我們建立醫療中心之後，那一些還有問題的時候，我們可以做絕育的協助還有一些疾病的防治。但是這一方面要如何做，現在各公立收容所可以知道環境各縣市的設備及環境都不一樣，我們希望大家都可以提升。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "成立醫療中心，為何想要建立？想要投入的原因是，因為各縣市政府的獸醫師是最多的。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "像新北市有跟農委會去年度有要一些經費，所以又建了醫療中心，如果人都跟農委會要經費的話，我們可以要這個，我們就可以讓公立收容所改善之後，再讓私人狗場改善。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "可能會遇到的問題是，剛剛有提到虐待時能不能又求償醫療費的問題，這個問題可能會列在醫療費用的求償，農委會會研究。法規會有兩個，一個是法規研析、一個是研究，如何克服？就是用法規來克服，權責單位是農委會。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "再來，有關於改善作證技巧，剛剛講了滿多，大部分的時候，如果民眾發現通報，不知道跟119通報或者是跟110通報的時候，我們建議打1999，動保處就會受理，受理之後就會去進行查證的東西。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "現在是覺得一些報案的流程，像人力不足的話要怎麼辦？我們會制定動物保護的手冊，會制定蒐證的DM，讓民眾知道如何先蒐證，跟我們報案時也會一起合作。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "我們現在的問題是，剛剛又講到調閱監視器有問題，一般在警察機構其實都會配合，但是比如到7－11那邊調的話會有問題，我們剛剛講的到方式是動保員會拿公文，期望業者配合，把監視錄影器提供給我們，以作為蒐證的動作。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "警察會陪同，如果是警察跟我們陪同的話，因為他們的人力不是很夠，如果有警察去最好，如果不夠的話，動保員會過去，權責機關是動保處這邊。" }, { "speaker": "李建沛", "speech": "有一個問題最近常常遇到，也就是講習的問題，動保法第33之1條有規定如果違反法律的話，要去受講習一至兩個小時，我們現在常常遇到的問題是，如果今天違反就是今天去動物之家認養一隻動物時，如果不想養的時候，把動物退回去，會造成今天已經違反動保法，所以被列入黑名單，就不能再飼養任何的動物，如果今天家裡原本有養五隻動物，然後去收養所認領第六隻，後面五隻都不能養了，這樣不可能，會有一些問題，可能會改善認養機制、待養的機制，等到一個月熟悉之後再轉成認養的動作，權責的機關是動保處。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝兩組的說明，有沒有其他同仁針對兩組的報告希望可以釐清或者是可以說明的事情？" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "如果沒有的話，就把時間交給唐鳳。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天非常謝謝大家，一起來討論這個我自己非常關心的議題。之前跟主持人在準備的時候，我都是說我實在不應該發言，因為我一發言就會說動物權入憲之類的，大家討論方向可能就會受到影響。我長期非常關心這樣的題目。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "我們今天所有工作人員穿的衣服，都是聯合國永續發展17項目標的概念。臺灣在2030年之前，每一年都會有關於永續發展的「國家自願檢視報告」，就是把地球留給下一代的時候，比上一代來得好的實踐。今天討論非常廣泛，不只是教育，或者是生態系，其實也包含像第16項永續發展目標裡面，最重要的是「減少一切形式的暴力」（SDG16.1）。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "這個暴力在以前，我們都是比較狹窄的定義，好像只對人類或者是身體上的，但是其實精神上，以及對於動物等等，如果我們是以「減少一切形式暴力」的理念來看，所有這一些結構都是彼此相關的，就不會硬切出去說這些暴力好像跟我們發展沒有關係，而是連續的概念。在今天大家提到的想法裡面，尤其是去建立這樣子共同體的關心，讓大家覺得在社會上，對於動物友善的這一件事，是跟每一個人相關的，而不是特別對動物友善的那一些人才相關的。這個是非常重要的概念。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "接下來會有三個時間點。我們會儘快整理出今天的逐字紀錄，今天應該是有對外直播，所以這個逐字紀錄大家收到之後，也可以對照著我們對外的直播，看一下有沒有紀錄上有些不完整。或者是大家想要補充一些網址、參考資料，都非常歡迎放上去。我們通常是編輯十個工作天，不過接下來馬上要過年了，所以十個工作天是到1月14日，在1月14日之前歡迎大家編輯。我們會在1月14日公開逐字紀錄，給所有參與連署的朋友們看。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在此之前的一個禮拜，也就是1月7日的那一場政務會議上，會把大家討論的心智圖，在同仁綜整之後，會提供給所有各部會的開放政府聯絡人，及政務會議的政務委員、行政院院長、副院長、秘書長等等。對於跨部會的部分，是不是有一些政策方向的想法。這個部分如果有具體裁示的話，我們也會在1月7日下午開放政府聯絡人的會議上，讓各部會的開放政府聯絡人知道。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "綜合這兩個之後，農委會就會來回應這樣連署的提案。這邊打一個廣告，農委會在Join平台上，同時正在進行「動物福利白皮書」的徵集，這個徵集是到1月20日，事實上任何人都可以上去留言。剛才大家在討論的時候，我把這個白皮書的初稿看完了，我覺得非常棒，也覺得這個是大家可以接受的方向，而且跟國際是非常接軌的。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "在具體落實上，把今天的一些想法，能夠覺得跟白皮書裡面哪一章、如果修改哪一些字樣的話，如果各地方政府實際進行動保第一線的朋友們在落實上比較容易的話，即使是公務員，也很歡迎去Join平台動物白皮書的意見。這有助於白皮書一推出來的時候，就可以介入地方政府實際第一線面對的問題。通常這個形式的白皮書，可以轉換成實際的計畫、預算或者是資源的話，其實大家是比較有感的。如果不能的話，可能就會變成比較是一個態度的宣示。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "如果大家有空的話，上Join，然後Google一下「動物福利白皮書」，也參考一下網路意見徵集的工作。" }, { "speaker": "唐鳳", "speech": "今天非常感謝大家的參與。" }, { "speaker": "張芳睿", "speech": "謝謝大家今天的參與，協作會議到這邊結束，謝謝。" } ]